THURSDAY, 24 JUNE 2004 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 14:01.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Ms C P DUDLEY: Madam Speaker, I shall move the following as a subnect for discussion on behalf of the ACDP:

The role and future of independent schools in South Africa, especially in view of the attack on independent schools in Zimbabwe and present legislation and policy in South Africa.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

Vote No 1 - The Presidency (Resumption of Debate) THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, Deputy President, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, I would like to thank the hon members for the comments and observations they made in the debate on the Budget Vote of the Presidency.

The hon Sybil Seaton urged that to deepen democracy and promote nonracialism, we should draw on the contributions of all political parties and civil society. I agree with this advice. We have accordingly taken note of the suggestions made by the various members who spoke yesterday. This does not necessarily mean that we agree with their suggestions. What it does mean is that we should at least consider their suggestions and not ignore or reject them, simply because they have been made by parties other than the ruling party.

For instance, the hon Pieter Mulder said that in 1993 and 1996 we were forced to talk to each other on the problems relating to the place of Afrikaners and Afrikaans in our society. Now, elections and the style in this House force us to fight as opponents. It makes these problems worse and does not solve anything. I’d like to assure the hon Mulder that we do not have to fight as opponents. Like him, the Government is concerned that everything we do should ensure that the Afrikaners and the Afrikaans- speaking people are not discriminated against, and are being treated with the sensitivity and dignity that must be accorded to all our people, regardless of race or colour or gender. I am certain that a former member of this House, Cassie Aucamp, will not object to my mentioning the fact that he has not accepted the pessimistic views expressed by the hon Mulder. I say this because not long ago he approached me to raise matters, not different from those mentioned by the hon Mulder. We will respond to the suggestions he made, precisely to ensure that such suggestions as those mentioned by the hon Pieter Mulder are addressed, and I’d like to assure the hon Mulder that we will discuss the same issues with him.

In this regard I’d like to draw the attention of the hon Mulder to the remarks made by the Deputy President concerning the operationalisation of the Commission for the Promotion of the Rights of Cultural, Religious and Linguistic Communities, and I am certain that it would help all of us if the hon Mulder approached the Deputy President to see in what ways this important commission could help us to address the issues that he raised.

I agree with the hon Seaton that in the interest of all our citizens, we should ensure that the Presidency functions smoothly and efficiently, and that the interaction between the Presidency and Parliament should continue to be, as she puts it, both streamlined and seamless. The matter she raised, namely the salaries of MPs, has been affected by new amendments to the relevant legislation. These have meant that the independent Commission for the Remuneration of Public Office Bearers had to follow new procedures to determine their salaries. The consultative process was also delayed by the elections. However, the commission is giving urgent attention to this matter.

The hon Patricia de Lille made the point that we should align our poverty alleviation programmes so as to achieve maximum impact. Already the cluster system that we have announced in this House has begun to have a positive impact on the Government’s planning, implementation and monitoring of its programmes. Although the hon De Lille said she was looking forward to fulfilling her function of watching closely, I would suggest that she extends that role to finding ways of practically assisting in the implementation of all of these programmes whose main objective is to bring about a better life to all our people. [Applause.] This, I believe, is the task of our public representatives, namely to ensure that they are not merely content to watch the unfolding processes from the sidelines, but that they become active participants in the transformation of our country into a nonracial, nonsexist, democratic and prosperous society.

The hon Motsoko Pheko is correct when he says that the National Youth Commission should work for the development of all young people, irrespective of party affiliation, geographic location or gender. Indeed, the National Youth Commission should communicate better so as to reach more young people. I am certain Minister Pahad will respond in a practical manner to the proposals made by the hon Pheko.

Both hon Meshoe and Nefolovhodwe have made appeals for urgent intervention in the situation in the DRC. I can assure the hon members that we are fully engaged in that situation and will continue to do whatever we can to help bring peace and stability to that country which will lead to the holding of the democratic elections which all of the signatories to the Congolese Agreement are committed.

The hon Stevens of the UDM knows that monetary policy is the responsibility of the Reserve Bank. He might therefore direct his comments to Governor Mboweni. He is also aware of the steps taken by the Government to mediate the impact of high prices of crude oil. The Government will keep this matter under constant review. At an appropriate time, the Minister of Health will respond to the proposal to make Aids a notifiable disease.

I am particularly happy that most speakers agreed with the programme we had put before Parliament and the country. I also agree with various points of emphasis that the hon members made with regard to various elements of the programme, including poverty eradication, youth development, the empowerment of people with disabilities, gender equality and the emancipation of women, and the improvement of our educational system to produce the skilled people that we need. I trust that we will all find ways of making our own contributions to the successful implementation of the programme with which most of us seem to be in agreement.

However, with regard to a wider context, I would like to thank the hon Sybil Seaton and the hon Tony Leon for their contributions to the discussion on the important question of what we want to do with our country and ourselves. I trust that others among us will follow their example and contribute their views about the future of our political and economic systems. In this regard, surely we must agree with the often- expressed view of the DA that a vibrant democracy necessarily means a coexistence of diverse views. Accordingly, we should not judge any national debate as having succeeded or failed merely by the extent to which it has or has not led to the emergence of consensus. The fact is that among ourselves we may and will disagree on many issues. There is no rule that requires that any of our national debates should lead either to agreement or disagreement. Neither does the fact that we do not agree on a number of issues constitute a threat to democracy or translate into bad manners or behaviour on the part of the Government.

The very persistence of different points of view, and especially the availability of the political space in which to express and propagate these different views, signify precisely the health of our democracy. Sometimes, however, I get the impression that some believe that the President of the Republic is excluded from enjoying the right to hold and propagate views that may differ from those held by other people. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

The role seems to be that the President should say only those things about which everybody is in agreement. [Interjections.] This condemns the President merely to project those views accepted by public opinion, or media opinion posing as public opinion or common knowledge, prohibiting the President from saying anything that some may characterise as controversial. I raise this matter because of the input and some of the comments made by the hon Sybil Seaton. She called for an acceptance of criticism. This has never been a problem. The problem arises when our response to criticism, to exercise our own right to hold and express our own views, is read as frightening intolerance of criticism. [Applause.]

In a speech he delivered a fortnight ago on 10 June, the hon Tony Leon conveyed this message when he said that there is fear across the country that one might incur the displeasure and wrath of the ANC, that one might be denounced as a racist, that one might inadvertently express agreement with or support somebody or someone who has already been denounced as a racist, someone like the leader of the DA, for example. It will actually surprise everybody, certainly the ruling party, to hear from the hon Leon the sad truth that there is precious little intellectual independence from the ANC in business, in the media, civil society and universities and that, indeed, even in the rest of the opposition, there is no real independence from the ANC. In the light of all of this, the hon Leon says we desperately need in our country a plurality of views, and true intellectual and moral independence from the ruling party.

This conclusion is based on an assessment of what is happening in the country and with which we disagree. Indeed, if we had the time, we could demonstrate quite easily that what the hon Leon believes is desperately needed, is precisely what characterises public discourse in our country. Of course, it may be that when he speaks of a desperate need for a plurality of views, he is calling on everybody to differ with and oppose the ruling party, regardless of the merits of the propositions of the ruling party. This amounts to arguing that to agree with what is patently correct, is to suppress a plurality of views. Apart from anything else, this amounts to an attempt to frighten everybody with false propositions in order to encourage opposition to the ruling party, merely for the sake of opposition, for obvious reasons.

The strategy of the use of fear is reflected in the comments made in response to the pronouncements of the Ministers of Mineral and Energy and of Agriculture and Land Affairs. To take only the latter: The Minister of Agriculture was correct to call for a national discussion on the issue of foreign land ownership. To stop this discussion, which will take place, the hon Leon seeks to frighten the country with the notion that, ``restrictions on foreign ownership are a red flag for foreign investors’’. [Interjections.] And yet many countries have such restrictions. They include Switzerland and Canada - to cite only two. We know of no reports that this has served as a red flag to the foreigners who have invested in these countries. Quite why Switzerland and Canada can have such restrictions without frightening foreign investors, while similar restrictions in our country would produce an opposite response from foreign investors, is difficult to fathom.

There will be a time in future to discuss the ideological construct advanced by the hon Leon which results in his talking about a so-called fundamental contradiction, the racial nationalism of the ANC on the one hand, and the liberal democratic values of our nation’s Constitution on the other. Suffice to say for now is that what he has sought to do, is to superimpose this construct on our history and contemporary reality; not to improve our understanding of that history and reality, but to obscure them, to create a space for the hegemony of the socioeconomic paradigm that Will Hutton describes as American conservatism.

The end point he wants us to arrive at is explained in a speech on Youth Day, 16 June, when he spoke of an economic policy with such elements as a minimum budget deficit, lower taxation, a deregulated labour market, privatisation, enterprise zones, opportunity vouchers and the like. He believes, among other things, he must convince us that the African majority in our country was not oppressed and exploited as Africans, but as individuals. [Interjections.] The legacy of that past impacts on this majority, not as Africans, but as individuals. This derives from the proposition contained in the same speech, namely that for the DA:

Society is composed at its most basic level of individuals and not of racially defined groups, or for that matter, of classes or ethnic groups. As liberals we do believe that people are more than the sum of the forces that are brought to bear on them or at least that the combination of forces produces individuals with a unique outlook on the world, who construct their own meaning and who are best placed to apprehend their own truth or truths.

If this has any meaning, it constitutes a vain attempt to eradicate our history. Accordingly, the Africans as a national group did not and do not exist. What we had and have are merely individual Africans who were oppressed as individuals and who suffer from the legacy of racism as individuals. Africans did not come together as a national group to fight oppression, but struggled as individuals each constructing his or her own meaning, being best placed to comprehend their own truth or truths. Necessarily, therefore, our response to challenge or eradicate the legacy of racism is wrong. It is also wrong to seek to uplift the Africans as a national group. Rather, we should seek to change a lot of the individual Africans, unique in himself or herself. Since there are no classes but only individuals, the workers are also wrong to have combined in trade unions. All this is a celebration of individualism and an attempt to create a society in which individuals shoulder their burdens and exercise their rights alone, of which Will Hutton writes. [Interjections.]

I do not know what will happen to the hon Tony Leon when he wakes up one day and discovers that there are individual Africans who belong to the ANC; that there are individual workers who belong to the working class and individual capitalists who belong to the capitalist class; and that all of these have all along been combined to act together, exactly because they share common interests as racially defined groups or, for that matter, as classes. They did not believe the hon Tony Leon when he told them they were merely individuals with a unique outlook on the world … [Applause.] … that they were merely individuals with a unique outlook on the world, constructing their own meaning, and who are best placed to comprehend their own truth or truths. To understand better our response to the liberal ideology propagated by the DA, hon members may also find it useful to have a look at what we said in 1999 in our response to the state of the nation address after the then elections.

In another speech on 10 June, the hon Tony Leon said that the consensus the ANC calls for, which is a consensus on the programme of transformation, fundamentally misses the point. Indeed, it subverts the spirit, if not the letter of democracy. I am happy to say that, as reflected in this debate in this House yesterday, the majority of our people disagree with this point of view. They are determined to join hands to fundamentally transform our country into a true nonracial, nonsexist and prosperous democracy in which the racist legacy of the past will cease to define us as Africans, Coloureds, Indians and whites; giving all of us an opportunity to be merely South Africans. There are millions of our people who would deeply appreciate the contribution of the hon members to this outcome, as I would. I thank you, Madam Speaker. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

                    APPOINTMENT OF NEW CHIEF WHIP

                           (Announcement)

The SPEAKER: Hon members, I would like to announce that the hon Nhleko has resigned as Chief Whip of the Majority Party with effect from today. The hon Mbulelo Goniwe replaces him in that post. [Applause.]

                  SUBJECT-RELATED AD HOC COMMITTEES

                         (Draft Resolution) The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, we move a motion in the name of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party as printed on the Order Paper, as follows:

That -

(1) the House dissolves the subject-related ad hoc committees, including the Ad Hoc Committee on International Affairs, established by resolutions of the House on 6 May 2004 (Minutes of 6 May, items 13 and 14);

(2) bills and all other matters that have been referred to these ad hoc committees stand referred to the portfolio committees established by the Speaker on 23 June 2004; and

(3) the mandate given to the Ad Hoc Committee on Finance to consider the subject of the financial administration of Parliament as instructed by the House on 18 June 2004, accordingly be transferred to the Portfolio Committee on Finance with the same timeframes.

Agreed to. APPROPRIATION BILL

            (Decision of Question on Votes and Schedule)

The SPEAKER: Hon members, I wish to thank political parties for advising the staff on which Votes they will make declarations, on which they will record their objections and on which they intend dividing. This information indeed greatly assisted the process this afternoon. I will put each Vote and ask parties for declarations of votes as they have indicated. Members may make declarations of votes from the floor microphones if they wish, especially if they are very far from the podium. After this I will put the Vote for decision. By agreement declarations will be limited to two minutes. When we come to divisions, the bells will be rung for five minutes for the first one, and subsequently one minute for all others.

Vote No 1 - The Presidency - put and agreed to.

Vote No 2 - Parliament - put and agreed to.

Vote No 3 - Foreign Affairs - put.

Declarations of votes:

Mr D H M GIBSON: Madam Speaker, the Foreign Affairs Vote presents a difficult choice for the DA. There have been some major foreign policy successes, which we applaud. Included in these are the African Renaissance concept, Nepad, the interaction with the G8 countries, the multilateral approach, the leadership role in many continental and international institutions, and the expansion of our country’s representation in all parts of the world. We also generally support humanitarian and peace- making initiatives in a world which badly needs countries with liberal democratic constitutions to take the lead.

The problem is that there are some blemishes and some bad judgments which, we believe, have marred an otherwise praiseworthy conduct of South Africa’s foreign affairs. One must mention the Zimbabwean tragedy, misguided solidarity with the deposed Haitian president, the Mashabane affair with its implications for our commitment to women’s rights, our pursuit of relationships with some rather odd world leaders, and the complicity in the alleged mercenary saga are some examples.

The DA believes that our foreign policy should be strong on human rights and should concentrate on advancing South Africa’s real interests. There should be far more emphasis on promoting our country’s greatest needs, that of economic growth, investment and job creation. Anything that retards those imperatives should be discarded as an unnecessary luxury, and everything that promotes those imperatives should be pursued with single-minded determination. I will interact with the Foreign Minister and support her where this is possible, while opposing her where this is necessary.

This year, the DA gives a qualified ``yes’’ to the Foreign Affairs Vote. I thank you. [Applause.]

Prof A K ASMAL: Madam Speaker, I think this is a very miserable response by the DA. We live in a very dangerous world, and South Africa has trodden a path of extraordinary virtuosity, courage and understanding. I don’t think this House needs a qualified support of the DA.

This House will enthusiastically welcome the initiatives taken in the 10th year of our freedom, where South Africa has played a remarkable role in the Commonwealth, in the United Nations and elsewhere. The conferences that were held here were not held here because the world wants to repay South Africa for its glorious changes in 1994. They were held here because South Africa could provide leadership on the issues of racism, of sustainable development and the South Atlantic. All these conferences were a tribute to South Africa’s leadership and virtuosity. That is why the ANC believes in a positive approach. In the areas where, in fact, there are difficulties, the South African Government will take a considered view.

With regard to Zimbabwe, it is quite clear, as we have said again and again, that there is no such thing as public diplomacy, there is no such thing as hectoring diplomacy. The diplomacy that takes place is a diplomacy where we want to influence and affect positions in Zimbabwe. In the same way, we are quite clear what the Diaspora demands from South Africa, as the Foreign Minister said, namely that we make common cause with the victims of slavery and colonialism. We are not going to apologise for this.

The Foreign Minister has said that we will have a conference in the Caribbean on the Diaspora. Next year we are considering an international conference on the Diaspora. We are part of what George Orwell called ``the great unwashed’’, and we are not going to apologise for those who come with silver spoons in their mouths. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 4 - Home Affairs - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr S N SWART: Madam Speaker, we indicated to the ANC Whips that we would not be making a declaration on this Vote.

The SPEAKER: The ANC? Does the ANC wish to pursue the declaration of vote? Mr Chauke?

Mr L M GREEN: Madam Speaker, the ACDP does have a declaration on this Vote. We did forward it to the table staff.

The SPEAKER: Please, quiet.

Mr S N SWART: Madam Speaker, the ACDP has consistently over the years supported the cause for greater financial assistance to this department, and we are pleased that the budget allocation has been significantly increased. This department is a window to Government for citizens and visitors to our country, but underresourcing in the past has made it extremely difficult for the department to achieve many of its strategic objectives.

Whilst the ACDP is thus prepared to support the budget and give the department a period to implement its turnaround strategy, we are clearly concerned about various budgetary items in the programmes. Particular concern relates to the Government Printing Works and the Auditor-General’s adverse audit opinion for the previous financial year to the effect that -

… the financial statements do not fairly represent in all material respects the financial position of the Government Printing Works as at 31 March 2003. Clearly much attention needs to be given to the Government Printing Works as it is transformed to a state-owned enterprise.

The ACDP, in conclusion, holds the view that we need to encourage the department in its turnaround strategy and give it grace and an opportunity to see whether it can implement this strategy, whereafter we can again evaluate the situation, and therefore the ACDP will support the Budget Vote. I thank you. [Applause.]

The SPEAKER: Are there any other parties wishing to make a declaration of vote? Hon Chauke?

Mr H P CHAUKE: Yes, Madam Speaker. The problem is that we were not made aware by the ACDP that they would make a declaration. Hence we understood that it was going to be only the DA. However let me just respond to a few things.

The allocation of R2,2 billion will go a long way in making sure that the Department of Home Affairs with its turnaround strategy will reach our people, in particular in those villages where people are still struggling hundreds and hundreds of kilometres towards the offices of the Department of Home Affairs. The service will now be delivered directly to where people are. We will have mobile units. We will be going to people. We will be making sure that each and every child who qualifies for a birth certificate will be given a birth certificate.

At the same time, I think that the budget allocation will be addressing the shortage of staff within the department. It will allow the department to employ 1 000 extra personnel. The control over border posts is currently weak. So, with this allocation, we believe that with the support of the Minister, the Deputy Minister and the department, they will be able to employ additional officers who will be on the ground to make sure that everybody who comes into the country or leaves it is adequately recorded as a person who is coming in or who is leaving the country.

On this note the ANC supports the Budget Vote. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 5 - Provincial and Local Government - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mnr W P DOMAN: Speaker, ten spyte van die verhoging van 38% van die begroting, wat meer geld vir infrastruktuurontwikkeling insluit, en wat die DA natuurlik verwelkom, kan die DA nie die begroting steun nie. Dit is onaanvaarbaar dat die department se personeel in een jaar met 175%, van 278 na 791 goedgekeurde poste verhoog word. Die infasering oor drie jaar moet drasties afgeskaal word. Kapasiteit moet eerder by provinsies en munisipaliteite gebou word. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mr W P DOMAN: Speaker, in spite of the 38% increase in the budget, which includes more money for infrastructure development, and which the DA naturally welcomes, the DA cannot support the budget. It is unacceptable that the department’s personnel increased with 175%, from 278 to 791 approved posts, in one year. The phasing in over three years must be drastically scaled down. Capacity should rather be built in provinces and municipalities.]

One of the biggest failures of the Minister and the ANC is that they could not turn the culture of nonpayment for services around. Debt owed to municipalities is increasing at an alarming rate. The ANC is further eroding the financial basis of municipalities with an out-of-date equitable share that is not covering the cost of free basic services, which we all expect municipalities to grant to the indigent. The Minister has failed to resolve the matter of unfunded mandates.

The ANC is also presently embarking on an unhealthy and undemocratic governance system by executive mayoral committees that govern from behind closed doors. Metros are highly centralised, with Government far from the ratepayers and personnel who are suffering from transition fatigue, which all result in ever deteriorating delivery of services. The only remedy now will be to give subcouncils more powers.

The DA views the community development workers appointed all over the country as nothing more than political commissars to infiltrate communities at taxpayers’ expense to drum up support for the ANC. [Interjections.]

It is not local government that is failing the people, but the ANC that is failing local government. [Interjections.] ANC politicians and ANC cadres deployed in high-ranking positions in local government who are involved in corruption, malpractice or simply not performing should be swiftly dealt with, instead of being protected by the ANC. [Applause.]

Mr P H K DITSHETELO: Madam Speaker, we regret that there has been miscommunication between the table staff and us. The UCDP will not make any declaration.

Mr Y I CARRIM: Madam Speaker, comrades and friends, a 35,8% increase in the overall budget, a 20,6% increase in the local government equitable share, a 67,5% increase for urban and rural development, a 52% increase for basic service and infrastructure, R15,6 billion allocated for municipal infrastructure over the MTEF period, what better a budget and how much more consistent can we be with what we promised the electorate? The point now is to use the budget effectively and productively. The more this happens, the stronger the case for increased funds in the future, which, given the magnitude of the task we have to fulfil, will be necessary.

The DA, if they had any sense at all, will work with us to meet these necessary goals; instead, we have the usual whingeing and whining, with not a single sensible alternative to offer. [Interjections.] Mr Doman has nothing to say in the committee meetings. Mr Leon, Mr Doman has nothing to say in the committee meetings, when he is there at all. Presumably his researcher prepared his speech about two years ago. [Laughter.] It sounds very much like the same one made at that time.

Madam Speaker, is there nothing you can do to find us an opposition of substance in our committee, please? [Interjections.] It’s unfair and boring to have no contest at all. This is after all a multiparty democracy. [Interjections.]

Mr Doman does not know, because he does not come to meetings. [Interjections.] Why? The department has reduced the municipal debt by R900 million in less than three months. [Applause.] Secondly, they have decided, in a measured and temperate way, to include the private sector - I thought that Mr Doman’s party would like this - to retrieve a part of those arrears without contradicting the indigents policy. Thirdly, the Intergovernmental Relations Bill will be before this House in a month’s time. This Bill will ensure a more integrated co-operative governance system. Fourthly, the DA, this very DA, went to the Constitutional Court to challenge the mayoral executive system. The court decided that the mayoral executive system is constitutionally sound. On the one hand they tell us to observe the Constitution; and on the other hand they want to violate the Constitution. [Interjections.] [Time expired.] [Applause.]

I have barely begun. I am afraid I can’t say much more. [Laughter.] Applause.]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, African Christian Democratic Party and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 6 - Public Works - put.

Mr F BHENGU: Madam Speaker, now that they have changed their minds, we as the ANC support the Budget Vote.

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Speaker, can I, again, please indicate that we informed the Whippery of the ANC this morning that we would not be taking part in certain declarations. They were informed, and I’m sorry that it has not come to your attention.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 7 - Government Communications and Information System - put.

The SPEAKER: Does the DA wish to make a declaration of vote?

Mr M J ELLIS: No, Madam Speaker, we will not be making a declaration on the GCIS. [Interjections.] Madam Speaker, I beg your pardon. This time I apologise to the House, it’s my fault; we will be making a declaration of vote. [Interjections.]

Declarations of vote:

Mr R COETZEE: Madam Speaker, he is meant to be on my side. The DA cannot support the Budget Vote for the GCIS this year. Whatever else the GCIS might or might not have done, the fact is that we believe that it exceeded its mandate and overstepped the appropriate mark during the election period by commissioning advertising that aided the ANC in its bid for votes. This is nothing less than an abuse of taxpayers’ money to promote the electoral interests of the ruling party. On television, on radio, in print, the GCIS created adverts that generated an enabling environment for the ANC, and no amount of self-righteousness or outrageous objection to this can change the fact.

The GCIS itself has drawn up leaky, flexible and ineffective rules for governing communication during election times. I made the point during the Budget Debate, that this is a little bit like Colonel Saunders drawing up a bill of rights for chickens - and I see that Colonel Saunders is in the room. We believe that the Government’s advertising policy during an election period should be very simple. Government advertising should cease as it does, for example, in Canada, a country the President recently mentioned as an example of a country with good laws. In Canada you will find that the Government’s electoral communication ceases during election periods, except for the putting out of legal notices and safety and health information. The ANC seems to disagree with this view. Well, we cannot support this Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr M K LEKGORO: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The Government must communicate to its citizens. That the Government must communicate with its citizens is beyond question. How they do it is a matter that politicians and intellectuals will forever debate. That the opposition will always feel that such communication gives the ruling party a propaganda advantage cannot be avoided. To accuse Government of using state resources to promote party ends is but an opposition tactic to cut this umbilical cord between the citizens and Government.

It is also a way of trying to blame their loss of votes on somebody else and not on their ill-considered policies that our people so much reject. We support the Vote. [Applause.] Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and ACDP dissenting).

Vote No 8 - National Treasury - put.

Declarations of vote:

Ms R TALJAARD: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Colleagues, Minister Manuel, you are aware that we will be supporting the National Treasury Vote. We do so, however, subject to concern emanating from the President’s Budget Vote speech.

You will recall, I have stated that the Washington Consensus is much more of an intellectual construction site of greater complexity, with all due respect, than yesterday’s Budget Vote had captured. When we called for Gear 2 to be put on the table for policy clarity, along the lines of the Asian Tigers’ five-year plans, you stated categorically in your response that Gear has not replaced the Freedom Charter or the RDP. One can but assume from the alteration, of course, and some of your comments that redistribution at the hands of the state will replace growth as the prime imperative. If this assumption is wrong, you are welcome to correct it.

After the President’s speech and the renewed focus on the left of the economic policy discussion, to the extent that these tired and redundant ideological corners have any meaning at all in a modern political world, Government must be clear and categorical in where it draws the line between the state and the market. Only once Government has drawn this line between the state and the market, clearly, will the market decide what its views are on our country’s new policy shift. And that will be the real debate; not the one between the new left and a makeshift right, or the reheated soup of capitalism or socialism, but an appropriate debate on the role of the state - and I might refer you to the work of Juan De Manico Mayuon, if you would like to engage me in a debate of substance.

Perhaps the Minister can tell us whether the National Treasury is in complete agreement with the Presidency on the newly chartered course and where the contradictions between the Gear route and the RDP route will be resolved and in favour of which document.

Was the President’s International Investment Council similarly briefed on Government’s new direction? If they were, and they were in agreement, the House looks forward to hearing about it. If so, was BEE their only concern? At the end of the day, the market will decide the fate of this new policy direction - not you, not the DA, the market will. [Applause.]

Ms B A HOGAN: Madam Speaker, it is most unfortunate that a distinction is being made between the RDP and Gear. Gear meant gross employment and redistribution. I repeat, ``gross employment and redistribution’’.

The fact that this Government has stabilised our finances to the extent that we are not paying so much money to service our debt and we can now look at the interests of the poor, and, yes, redistributing to the poor through the social grants, which the DA used as a major platform in their election policy, to the extent that the state is able to redistribute, to the extent that the state is able to enter into a public works programme to redistribute opportunity, employment, and much-needed employment to the poor, we are proud of it.

This is not a policy shift. This has always been central to the ANC-led Government. We are at once committed to growth, and we are at once committed to redistribution. I think it is mischievous to say that we are moving and shifting into a new policy direction. We are merely building on the momentum which we have achieved over the past 10 years, and we are proud to do so. Thank you. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 9 - Public Enterprises - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr I O DAVIDSON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The Minister laid great emphasis, when replying to his Budget Vote, to the effect that there was no change of policy in respect of the privatisation of assets in his department.

The DA, as well as commentators across the spectrum, saw it differently; seeing at least a distinct change of emphasis, at most a u-turn. The Minister quoted liberally from the RDP, with growth-orientated policy documents such as Gear, the National Framework Agreement, the INCC Lekgotla and, most importantly, his predecessor’s excellent policy framework document not even rating a mention.

These policies called for a more aggressive use of private capital in line with the Washington Consensus. The extent of restructuring envisaged by the Minister in the main, seems to be corporatisation, commercialisation, with private capital having a minority stakeholder role. Three critical lessons are ignored in this approach; firstly, as we have seen with the SA Airways/Swiss Air deal, as well as the Telkom/Fentana deal, stake holding limited to minority shareholdings tends to be short-term investments to be dumped when the balance sheets come under pressure or when a quick profit is to be made; secondly, real fixed direct investment, technology skills transfers and efficiencies only really materialise when investors are fully committed, and this will only happen when they have control over their investments; and finally, the Minister’s path fails to introduce a pivotal part of the privatisation process, and that is competition. Competition brings contestability and this creates the incentives for fishy behaviour and lower consumer prices. Iscor and Telkom are classic examples of failures in this regard.

If the President wants growth and jobs in South Africa, we agree with that potential. South Africa has that potential but not the way the Minister has outlined. Thank you.

Mr B A D MARTINS: Madam Speaker, the core function of the Department of Public Enterprises is the restructuring of state-owned enterprises. In certain instances this may result in privatisation, but it would be wrong and foolhardy to mistake the Department of Private Enterprises for Sales House. [Laughter.]

The main objective of the Department of Private Enterprises is to raise levels of investments, to build strong state-owned enterprises in partnership with the public and private sector in order to create work and fight poverty. The ANC supports the Vote. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 10 - Public Service and Administration - put and agreed to.

Vote No 11 - Public Service Commission - put and agreed to.

Vote No 12 - South African Management Development Institute (SAMDI) - put and agreed to.

Vote No 13 - Statistics South Africa - put. Declaration of vote:

Mrs S V KALYAN: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: What are your statistics? [Interjections.]

Mrs S V KALYAN: What are yours, Minister Pahad? Especially on exports and imports of oil. [Interjections.]

The DA agrees that sound policy can only be made on the basis of sound numbers. We support this Vote. However, we must state our concerns in respect of our GDP and CPI calculations, concerns that the Minister has clearly been aware of and alive to as he articulated in his Budget Vote.

The cost to our economy of getting the figures wrong is not simply one of credibility only. It reaches much further than that, as last week’s Economist pointed out in respect of our CPI figures in particular, for example:

The error had probably caused interests rates to be kept too high for too long.

And furthermore in respect of our GDP figures:

Getting the figures wrong in the first place has been costly.

Some foreign investors who frequently cite concerns about weak growth may have been deterred by the low recorded rates. Higher growth real - not just recorded - is exactly what the country needs. Despite the convincing arguments of the complexities involved in re-basing the GDP figures offered by Stats SA, the consequences and lost opportunities, if we have indeed forgone the FDI as indicated, are incalculable. The National Assembly eagerly awaits a full report on the reasons for your decision to move Census 2006 to Census 2011, the impact on the comparability of longitudinal population survey data and the budget implications for Stats SA’s reallocations flowing from your decision, Minister.

In addition, we trust that in pursuit of the implementation of the national statistics system, your Ministry will jealously guard and ensure the independence of the statistics authority from any political interference. Thank you. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 14 - Arts and Culture - put.

Declarations of vote:

Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: In my budget debate speech yesterday, I stated that there was no doubt in my mind that arts and culture in South Africa had reached the point of critical mass. Nothing the Minister said caused me to change my mind. His closing remark that he could not hand out money his department did not have shows that he had missed entirely the thrust of my speech. So allow me to recap.

The department has the money. It is their National Arts Council that is the problem. This council is a veritable logjam between the money voted to the Department of Arts and Culture and those who are to receive it. The NAC is the body that is supposed to distribute public funds for arts and culture, but the reality is that it, like the single most important source of funding for artists in the country, the Lotto, is utterly inadequate and incapable of rising to the task. The council has shown in countless letters to artists and performers, and indeed on the countless occasions it has simply not bothered to reply to them, that it is totally mismanaged and, on top of that, seems to go out of its way to treat those talented souls with utter contempt.

South Africa’s artists have had enough. They are becoming increasingly militant and this treatment is unbelievable. They are meeting as we speak in forums around the country. Just last night, I heard more from artists who had within the last 48 hours been told that their applications for funding to take companies to the National Arts Festival in Cape Town had been rejected, and now, at this late date, they will pull out and be blackballed for three years.

The NAC has, with the delay in calling for funding this year, destroyed lives and livelihood, and should be called to account. Yesterday, I cited case after case in which the NAC had acted in the most inappropriate manner towards artists, including one gross attempt at censuring an award- winning playwright’s work in exchange for funding.

As to the state of our theatres, well, I said it all yesterday. Anyone who imagines that Charlize Theron won her Oscar because of the support of the arts on the part of this government is wrong. No, she won it in spite of them. [Interjections.]

For the above-cited and many, many other reasons involving mismanagement and ineptitude, the DA will absolutely not support this budget. [Applause.]

Ms M A A NJOBE: Madam Speaker, the arts and culture budget grew rapidly over the past three years, at an annual average rate of 32,5%. Although there is going to be a decrease over the medium term, at an annual rate of 5,2%, this can be explained. The rapid growth was due to capital works, particularly transferred to heritage programmes, and in particular the funding for the Freedom Park Project. The decline in growth over the medium term is mainly due to the ending of the Freedom Park Project, and therefore the budget has to decrease.

There are additional funds for intensive investing in culture programmes, and these funds are contributing to the programmes of the Extended Public Works Programme, which is in line with the second decade’s programme of realising the people’s contract and fighting poverty.

The problem with the DA is that they want to capitalise on the current problem of the National Arts Council, which is only concerned with governance and administration. The matter is being looked into. The committee received two briefings from the director-general. The latest was to the ad hoc committee only recently. The member is a member of the ad hoc committee and she is very well aware of the problems regarding the National Arts Council. The briefing informed us that the matter is now in the hands of the Minister and the Minister is attending to it. So we are assured that the matter is being attended to. I don’t know what the DA wants now because the matter is being attended to.

The ANC supports this budget. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 15 - Education - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mrs O H ZILLE: Madam Speaker, after careful consideration the DA will support this Budget Vote. We do so because of the Minister’s stated commitment to achieving quality in public education, preserving the quality that exists and building quality where it does not, so that the right of quality basic education can be extended to all.

We welcome the priority the Minister has given to the foundation skills of reading, writing and calculating, to assessing learning outcomes at key points in the system and to ensuring the development of systems of accountability so that the appropriate people are held accountable for learners’ results.

However, we do have deep concerns about the department’s continued tendency to extend its control over those parts of the system that are working well, rather than attending to those institutions that are failing and require state intervention to improve. We do not think this budget does nearly enough to address the chronic shortage of educators in key disciplines in the school and tertiary sectors. We have significant reservations about proposals for funding further and higher education, and we are particularly concerned about the extent to which labour relations take priority over educational considerations in departmental decisions and the department’s ongoing obsession with racial head counting.

On balance, however, the Minister’s positive commitments potentially represent a significant turning point, and point of departure for education, and we will measure her decisions and actions against them and, in turn, hold her and her department accountable for achieving them. Thank you. [Applause.]

Prof S M MAYATULA: Madam Speaker, I think we do appreciate the change of heart by the DA. I think it is the first time in five years that they have approved our Education Vote and it does show that in education we are moving a step further.

Further education training, which the member referred to, is an issue that we also referred to: That one is a mainstay for skills development in our country and the ANC government is going to be looking into that.

Again, if one looks at the command from the President, it does show that the ANC Government is aware of all the concerns of the people on the ground. Hence further education and training colleges are going to be recapitalised. For the merger of institutions of higher education a sum of R200 million has been set aside in order to assist that.

The problem of students learning under trees is also going to be given full consideration, as will access to clean water and sanitation. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr L M GREEN: Madam Speaker, my apology that the communication hasn’t reached your desk, but we did inform the ANC Whip that the ACDP also has a declaration to make on education.

The SPEAKER: Please go ahead.

Ms C DUDLEY: Madam Speaker, the ACDP welcomes plans to roll out grade R, but would like to see a far more speedy implementation. Early childhood development, has a vital role to play, not only in preparing children for primary school, but also in enhancing their safety and wellbeing.

The departmental plans to increase allocation for infrastructure spending, establish a minimum learning package and make nonpersonnel allocations to poor schools look promising, but it is unclear exactly how the budget would support these initiatives.

The ACDP is concerned that the ECD rural schooling, HIV/Aids and life skills grants all show underexpenditure. Underexpenditure on conditional grants, which directly impacts on the most vulnerable and needy, is of serious concern.

Plans to rid poor parents of the need to pay school fees and to rid schools of the need to charge fees have clearly not been successful, and must of necessity be a priority. In terms of the South African Schools Act, all public school governing bodies are obliged to support the school as best they can, including through levies of school fees, placing principals, teachers and parents under tremendous pressure to find additional funds. We must recognise the commendable efforts of many.

Private schooling in South Africa, contrary to popular belief, serves and educates a majority of black working and middle-class pupils. The majority of these schools are new, charge average to low fees and are religious or community based, serving rural, innercity hubs and informal settlements. This sector appears to have tripled in size, perhaps a clear statement by parents of their lack of confidence in state education, with perceptions of better quality, greater accountability and smaller classes drawing many. These schools have an important role to play in the education needs of our country and should be assisted and not hampered in their efforts.

Service levies on independent schools, for example, unfairly discriminate. Currently independent schools teaching Grades 10, 11 and 12 are required to reapply for accreditation, causing much concern, as only a small percentage of those who have complied are being reaccredited. Hopefully the Minister will bring clarity on these issues and reassure independent schools that they are not being marginalised or targeted, especially in light of recent state harassment of independent schools in Zimbabwe.

The ACDP is optimistic, as we detect a move away from from OBE in focusing on numeracy and literacy skills. [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, your time has expired.

Ms C DUDLEY: For this we commend the new Minister and the ACDP will vote in favour of this budget. Thank you.

The SPEAKER: Hon members, I have received a note that the sound system is quite poor and I would like to request that the table please make sure that the engineers can attend to this matter. I hope, though, that we are not being requested to stop because we still have a long way to go. Otherwise we are going to be here for quite some time.

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 16 - Health - put.

Declarations of Vote:

Mr R COETZEE : Madam Speaker, the DA is not able to give its support to the Budget Vote on Health. While there has been significant progress in certain areas of policy implementation over the past few years - and here I think in particular of the immunisation programme - there are areas of policy, legislation and implementation with which we disagree so fundamentally, we cannot give our support for this Vote. In particular, our objection centres on the following: The snail’s pace at which the antiretroviral roll-out programme is being implemented, or in the case of four provinces, not being implemented at all; the staff shortage crisis that besets our public health system - in particular the shortage of nurses; the consequent quality of care problem in our public hospitals; the regulations pertaining to the price of medicines and the chaos they have caused, and the uncertain constitutionality of the certificate of need provision in the National Health Bill. Taken together, these problems constitute a crisis which is presumably why the Minister of Health herself recently described the health care system in South Africa as being in shambles. Madam Speaker, we will work with our colleagues in the health committee and with the Government to improve the situation over the next year, and we hope to be able to support the health budget in future. At the moment, however, we cannot do so. I thank you. [Applause.]

Dr R RABINOWITZ: Madam Speaker, the IFP supports the budget but we are concerned that, because of excessive political control in the hands of the Minister and her director-general, financial controls in the hands of the Ministry and control over NGO funding, the budget, though adequate, will not be spent as well as it could be. We are opposed to all certificates of need. They are not objectively verifiable and they are open to challenge if ever refused. The IFP advises Government to approve licences to all practitioners who have passed their exams; scrap the certificate of need and use incentives to draw pharmacists, dispensing doctors, private doctors or private health consortia to where the people need them. To bridge the gap between one of the worst public health services in the world and one of the best private health services in the world, we should use competitive contracts to draw NGOs, health trusts and private medical teams to where we need them to serve the poor. Let’s do it at Government’s expense and let’s put our money where our mouth is. While we applaud the additional funding for Aids, we are concerned that most of it is channelled through conditional grants which are notoriously the most difficult avenues through which money benefits the people. We would prefer more autonomy and responsibility in the hands of the provinces, and greater transparency and clarity as to who is responsible for what along the entire chain of health services, both public and private. We would also like to see more political will to get Aids medicines and to get them to the people. Thank you.

Mrs C DUDLEY: Madam Speaker, recent legislative efforts to address some of the challenges facing the health sector in South Africa have backfired, creating additional turmoil. The long-awaited National Health Act has placed the private health sector under perceived attack. Doctors are no longer able to practice without a certificate of need and are at the mercy of the director-general, who has the power to decide whether or not their services are needed. This is creating uncertainty, undermining the constitutional rights of private doctors and undermining health care services in general. Controversies surrounding the Medicines and Related Substances Act have not helped the situation, with not only doctors and pharmacists raising serious concerns, but consumers already having faced substantial increases in costs. While the Act has intended to lower the cost of medication, prices have risen as partial implementation of the Act bans discounting of drugs by manufacturers, wholesalers and retailers. Pharmacists predict that the imposed dispensing fee which comes into effect in August will result in over 1000 pharmacies going out of business, and unsustainably low profits threatening the entire pharmaceutical industry.

The ACDP consistently warned that artificial interference in pricing would produce unintended consequences and, coupled with the prevention of doctors from dispensing medicine, would seriously reduce access to drugs and further contribute to the lowering of morale of medical professionals, negatively impacting consumers rather than benefiting them. South African pharmacists and doctors are among the most sought after in the world, yet they feel that Government has sent a strong message that they are not wanted.

Mental health care in South Africa has been systematically brought in line with international trends, diminishing reliance on institutions and increasing integration of patients into communities. Severe budget restrictions are ensuring rapid cutbacks within institutions, but the same lack of budget is responsible for the lack of support structures for patient care in communities. Unless funding is found to establish adequate community care, patients are in effect abandoned by Government, leaving society facing greater risks and burdens. Finally, ever increasing attempts to increase access to abortion through legislation will not only result in the deaths of more babies, but negatively impact on women’s health and the rights of health care workers. The ACDP does not support this Budget Vote. [Time expired.]

Mr L V J NGCULU: Madam Speaker, as the ANC we are proud to associate ourselves with this Budget Vote. We are also proud to report that during the budget hearings the issues that hon Ryan Coetzee raised were actually clarified. Indeed, provinces have advanced in ensuring that our health care system is strengthened. Provinces have advanced in ensuring that the system to roll-out the comprehensive plan for HIV-Aids is in place. We are also proud to have learnt that in strengthening our health care system, progress has been made in a number of areas with regard to the issue of measles and polio. Regarding the certificate of need, which both the DA and the ACDP have raised, they should be reminded that the President has not signed the National Health Act. Why they raise an issue which has not yet even come before us, I don’t know. On the question of the regulation of medicine, in the briefings we had and the discussions in the portfolio committee, we all agreed - including themselves - that because the state had become aware of the escalating price of drugs, it could not just stand by and watch. It had to intervene. As the President said, the question of a state that must watch without an intervention is not what we buy. Therefore, the question of intervention on the pricing of medicine was necessary because prices have gone ballistic. Indeed, the regulations have not come into effect and therefore you cannot judge whether prices have gone up or down. That is all that we as the ANC want to say. The path that we have taken is the correct one and is based on the call of a people’s contract. Let us all join together to ensure that we strengthen where we need to do so, and improve what we need to. Together we can succeed. No one is going to succeed by shouting from this podium. Let’s join and work together to ensure that our people benefit from a better health care system. [Applause.]

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 271: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya, S E; Asmal, A K; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Bapela, K O; Batyi, F; Bekker, H J; Bhamjee, Y S; Bhengu, F; Biyela, B P; Bloem, D V; Blose, H M; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Burgess, C V; Cachalia, I M; Carrim, Y I; Chalmers, J; Chang, E S; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan-Khota, F I; Combrinck, J J; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Davies, R H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dikgacwi, M M; Dipico, E M; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Dlamini-Zuma, N C; Dodovu, T S; Doidge, G Q M; du Toit, D C; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gabela, L S; Gcwabaza, N E; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gillwald, C E; Gogotya, N J; Gololo, C L; Greyling, C H F; Greyling, L W; Gumede, D M; Gumede, M M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Harding, A; Hendricks, L B; Herandien, C B; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Johnson, C B; Johnson, M; Jordan, Z P; Joubert, L K; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kati, Z J; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Kondlo, N C; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Likotsi, M T; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Mabuyakhulu, D V; Maduma, L D; Magau, K R; Magazi, M N; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Mahomed, F; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Malahlela, M J; Maloney, L; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleka, H P; Manana, M N S; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Maserumule, F T; Mashangoane, P R; Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J; Mashile, B L; Masithela, N H; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M H; Matsepe- Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbombo, N D; Mdladlana, M M S; Mdlalose, M M; Mentor, M P; Meruti, M V; Mfundisi, IS; Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnguni, B A; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mokoena, A D; Moleketi, P J; Moloto, K A; Monareng, O E; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morobi, D M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Moss, M I; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpaka, H M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mufamadi, F S; Mzondeki, M J G; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nefolovhodwe, P J; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngculu, L V J; Ngele, N J; Ngiba, B C; Ngwenya, M L; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Njobe, M A A; Nkuna, C; Nogumla, R Z; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M M; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Padayachie, R L; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Pandor, G N M; Phadagi, M G; Phala, M J; Pheko, S E M; Phungula, J P; Pieterse, R D; Pule, B E; Rabinowitz, R; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Ramphele, T D H; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Roopnarain, U; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E; Schneemann, G D; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Sibande, M P; Siboza, S; Sibuyana, M W; Sigcau, S N; Sigcau, Sylvia N; Sikakane, M R; Simmons, S; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Stephens, M; Stofile, M A; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tinto, B; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Tshwete, P; Turok, B; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Wyk, A; Vezi, T E; Wang, Y; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M; Xolo, E T; Yengeni, L L; Zikalala, C N Z; Zita, L; Zulu, B Z; Zulu, N E; Zuma, J G.

NOES - 53: Botha, C-S; Camerer, S M; Coetzee, R; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Doman, W P; Dudley, C; Durr, K D S; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M; Green, L M; Groenewald, P J; Haasbroek, S F; Henderson, R K; Jankielsohn, R; Kalyan, S V; Khumalo, M S; King, R J; Kohler-Barnard, D; Labuschagne, L B; Lee, T D; Lowe, C M; Maluleke, D K; Madasa, Z L; Masango, S J; Meshoe, K R J; Minnie, K J; Mnyandu, B J; Morgan, G R; Mulder, C P; Nel, A H; Opperman, S E; Rabie, P J; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Smuts, M; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Swathe, M M; Taljaard, R; Trent, E W; Van der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M; Van Niekerk, A I; Waters, M; Weber, H; Zille, H.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 17 - Labour - put. Declarations of vote:

Mr C M LOWE: Madam Speaker, the key questions asked in the Labour Vote is whether the department is advancing policies and programmes that address South Africa’s job crisis and offer hope to the unemployed millions who have simply given up. The statistics are shocking. Unemployment is up by 2,2 million since 1995; a million jobs have been lost and more than 8,4 million people, 42% of our workforce, are willing to work but are unable to find jobs - and 3,8 million have even stopped trying.

This South African tragedy is a direct result of the ANC’s failure to implement labour policies like those identified in the International Monetary Fund’s Article 4, which deals with country assessment reports. One is to attract direct foreign investment and encourage employers to expand their workforce, but instead we have rigid labour laws that destroy jobs, heavy regulations that keep new firms from entering the market, collective bargaining agreements that leave no room for small businesses to survive and minimum wage laws that keep the jobless in perpetual poverty and misery. So, the answer to the question remains an emphatic no! Policy amendments need to be made to firstly improve labour market flexibility and promote company-specific labour agreements; secondly, to reduce labour costs, eliminate minimum wages and link pay increases to productivity increases, and thirdly, to introduce tax incentives to reverse the trend away from using labour to capital-intensive means of production.

Until the ANC stops just reinforcing the walls protecting their magic circle of those few who are lucky enough to have a job while ignoring the plight of 42% of our workforce, the DA in all good conscience cannot support the Budget. We owe it to South Africa’s 8,4 million unemployed to say no. [Applause.]

Mr M S MANIE: Madam Speaker, the DA will vote against the Labour Vote as they have done for the past 10 years. They always vote against this Vote. They want us to eliminate and remove all the laws that regulate the labour market. What they want is a labour market that allows businesses to operate in a way that they see fit only to allow businesses to pay what they want, to hire and fire workers at will. We cannot support those kinds of policies. We know that any policy that is biased unfairly towards either business or labour is not sustainable in the long term. South Africa needs fair and balanced policies. Our policies are aimed at creating a better life for all, not like the DA who, through their liberal views, believe in individualism, the survival of the fittest and the laws of the jungle. We as the ANC are committed to taking responsibility for the poor, the marginalised, the disabled and the aged. The DA today is voting against not only this Vote, but they are voting against transformation, black empowerment and against affirmative action. The DA is voting, in other words, for a return to the old apartheid relations. [Interjections.] In fact, what the DA has become, is the official right- wing of South Africa. The ANC supports this Vote. [Applause.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Particularly, in view of the rubbish spoken by the hon Salie Manie, we have no option but to call for a division.

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 282: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya, S E; Asmal, A K; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Bapela, K O; Batyi, F; Bekker, H J; Bhamjee, Y S; Bhengu, F; Bici, J; Biyela, B P; Bloem, D V; Blose, H M; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Burgess, C V; Cachalia, I M; Carrim, Y I; Chalmers, J; Chang, E S; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan-Khota, F I; Combrinck, J J; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Davies, R H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dikgacwi, M M; Dipico, E M; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Dlamini-Zuma, N C; Dodovu, T S; Doidge, G Q M; du Toit, D C; Durr, K D S; Fihla, N B; Fraser- Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gabela, L S; Gcwabaza, N E; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gogotya, N J; Gololo, C L; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Green, L M; Greyling, C H F; Greyling, L W; Gumede, D M; Gumede, M M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Harding, A; Hendricks, L B; Herandien, C B; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Johnson, M; Jordan, Z P; Joubert, L K; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kati, Z J; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, K M; Khumalo, M S; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Kondlo, N C; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Likotsi, M T; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Maake, J J; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Madasa, Z L; Maduma, L D; Magau, K R; Magazi, M N; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Mahomed, F; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Malahlela, M J; Maloney, L; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleka, H P; Manana, M N S; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Maserumule, F T; Mashangoane, P R; Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J; Mashile, B L; Masithela, N H; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M H; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbombo, N D; Mdladlana, M M S; Mdlalose, M M; Mentor, M P; Meruti, M V; Meshoe, K R J; Mfundisi, IS; Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnguni, B A; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mokoena, A D; Molefe, C T; Moleketi, P J; Moloto, K A; Monareng, O E; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morobi, D M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Moss, M I; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpaka, H M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mufamadi, F S; Mzondeki, M J G; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nefolovhodwe, P J; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngculu, L V J; Ngele, N J; Ngiba, B C; Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Njobe, M A A; Nkabinde, N C; Nkuna, C; Nogumla, R Z; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M M; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Padayachie, R L; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Pandor, G N M; Phadagi, M G; Phala, M J; Pheko, S E M; Phungula, J P; Pieterse, R D; Pule, B E; Rabinowitz, R; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Ramphele, T D H; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Roopnarain, U; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E; Schneemann, G D; Sefularo, M; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J B; Siboza, S; Sigcau, S N; Sigcau, Sylvia N; Sikakane, M R; Simmons, S; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Stephens, M; Stofile, M A; Surty, M E; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tinto, B; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Tshwete, P; Turok, B; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Wyk, A; Vezi, T E; Vundisa, S S; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M; Xolo, E T; Yengeni, L L; Zikalala, C N Z; Zita, L; Zulu, B Z; Zulu, N E; Zuma, J G.

NOES - 47: Botha, C-S; Camerer, S M; Coetzee, R; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Doman, W P; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M; Groenewald, P J; Haasbroek, S F; Henderson, R K; Jankielsohn, R; Kalyan, S V; King, R J; Kohler-Barnard, D; Labuschagne, L B; Lee, T D; Lowe, C M; Maluleke, D K; Masango, S J; Minnie, K J; Mnyandu, B J; Morgan, G R; Mulder, C P; Nel, A H; Opperman, S E; Rabie, P J; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Smuts, M; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swart, P S; Swathe, M M; Taljaard, R; Trent, E W; Van der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M; Van Niekerk, A I; Wang, Y; Waters, M; Weber, H; Zille, H.

ABSTAIN - 2: Dudley, C; Johnson, C B.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 18 - Science and Technology - agreed to.

Vote No 19 - Social Development - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mrs C DUDLEY: Madam Speaker, the ACDP would like to encourage the department to expand its links with faith-based organisations who are well- placed and have the human resources necessary to identify needs and channel relevant support. While almost 62 000 orphaned and vulnerable children, and 10 000 child-headed households were identified and received appropriate services, these achievements, sadly, pale in comparison with projections of 800 000 Aids orphans by 2005.

According to officials, the draft finance policy for NGOs who deliver services on behalf of the department will soon be presented at Minmec. This is long overdue as financing for child protection services is of great concern. Nonprofit child protection agencies are, in terms of draft legislation, legally responsible for rendering services. Yet, the state is not legally responsible for funding them. This is problematic and the already stretched and underresourced child protection system is in danger of collapsing under the strain. For many NGOs, as much as 85% of the work is statutory and less than 50% of the budget is subsidised by Government. At the same time, overseas funders do not want to fund statutory work.

The present disparity between social services salaries and NGOs’, and those in the Public Service is creating debilitating problems. A starting salary for a Government social worker, for example, is about R5 600 - with a substantial increase due soon, while NGO social workers earn between R4 000 and R4 400 - with no benefits and no prospects of an increase. This results in staff turnover of 50% to 90%, and little to no chance of NGOs ever having black senior staff or meeting transformation criteria.

NGOs are training staff for the public sector but are progressively unable to provide services themselves. In one agency that looks after orphaned children, there is a backlog of 1 500 foster care cases because they cannot investigate the cases. The one and only person working on these cases is overseas-funded and not state-funded.

Children are dying before case workers get to them and this further devastates workers. State-subsidised posts have not increased in 15 years. The contribution of NGOs is invaluable and solutions must be found. Early childhood development, up to but not including Grade R, is the responsibility of Social Development as well, but there is no budget for it. The ACDP calls on Government to urgently provide a conditional grant for this critical service in order to protect children who are vulnerable and to empower women.

Notwithstanding the above concerns, the ACDP will support the Social Development budget and work to alleviate poverty; rebuild family, community and social relations.

Mr E (CASSIM) SALOOJEE: Madam Deputy Speaker, the ANC promised our people more jobs and the eradication of poverty. We promised them a move away from excessive reliance on social grants. Where people need grants, we will improve service delivery.

We will provide more efficient social grant administration and payment through the National Social Security Agency. Moving grants administration to the agency allows the department to focus on other developmental services, for example antipoverty programmes aimed at earning income and developing skills.

We are going to put in place income-generating projects through the Expanded Public Works Programme. Social Development programmes will focus essentially on early childhood development, and home and community-based care projects.

Budget Vote 19 sets out the required financial resources to assist us in keeping these promises. The ANC supports this Vote. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to. Vote No 20 - Sport and Recreation South Africa - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mrs C DUDLEY: Madam Deputy Speaker, the ACDP would like to see more money allocated to developing sport facilities in previously disadvantaged communities. While huge stadiums are great assets, they will only showcase the talents of other countries and exacerbate crime if we do not ensure that sport at a local level is developed, accommodated and encouraged.

More emphasis must be placed on ensuring that every school has easy access to sport facilities, which must include movement and dance. Some schools have had a tremendous advantage in the past, and where sport has been a strong influence, good principled leadership has emerged.

It is obvious that money should be made available for development of sport and invested where the most lack and need exist. Instead of enforcing artificial quota systems, we should be focusing on encouraging and developing the talent of all young South Africans.

Sport provides opportunities for children and youth to express themselves instead of expressing their frustrations in less positive or even destructive ways. Sport teaches youths to interact positively, compete positively and even lose with dignity. Sport teaches us how to play the ball with all our heart, physical strength and mind without stooping to play the man. Sport offers opportunity for creativity, a common vision and letting off steam. It even offers mankind a positive substitute for war, which seems to be a basic instinct. Our children and youth are the leaders of tomorrow, and sport inspires positive leadership skills and qualities like commitment and self-discipline.

Sport is played out in the open with all eyes on the players. Devious play results in penalty, showing that crime doesn’t pay. Honesty and integrity are the qualities which are admired in sport, and we desperately need these qualities in our leaders.

The ACDP is encouraged to see a willingness to expose and deal with corruption that is eating away at the credibility of our soccer fraternity, and believes a harsh stand should be taken against perpetrators. The ACDP regards time and money spent on sport development as an investment in a better tomorrow. We will support the budget. Thank you.

Ms P BHENGU: Madam Deputy Speaker, the ACDP does not attend the meetings of the Portfolio Committee on Sport and Recreation, and therefore does not understand issues. Issues that are raised here by the ACDP are dealt with in the portfolio committee meetings and solutions are found to those issues.

The overall objective of the ANC-led Government is to build a healthy active winning nation. Central to the achievement of this objective are the principles of nonracialism, gender equality and equal opportunities, particularly for people with disabilities and rural communities.

Our strategic approach is to use sport as a tool for development through which social problems that affect our youth would be addressed, thereby creating a large pool of high performance players.

Our focus on school sport and mass participation, without neglecting the high performance sport, will result in a healthy active winning nation. The ANC supports the vote. Thank you. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 21 - Correctional Services - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr J SELFE: Madam Deputy Speaker, the DA is deeply concerned that at the present moment the prison system either does not or cannot rehabilitate offenders and that the department currently either does not or cannot effectively reintegrate offenders into society. In part, this is because the department is still re-orientating itself to making rehabilitation its core business; in part, this is because of the horrifying overcrowding of our correctional facilities; in part, this is because key staff, particularly professionals such as psychologists, have still not been appointed to their positions; in part, this is because the budget allocation to the department is not yet, in my view, fully aligned to the vision and core business as stated in its strategic plan and, in part, this is because the problem of awaiting trial detainees remains unresolved. Now, the Minister and the department have expressed the commitment to change the way in which the department operates. This will, inter alia, see its expression in the establishment of 36 centres of excellence that will in fact seek to rehabilitate offenders and reintegrate them into society.

We shall be scrutinising the department and its activities very closely. My colleagues and I will be visiting as many prisons as possible to see to what extent the department has indeed managed to re-orientate its activities. We expect that by the next time Parliament considers this vote, substantial and measurable progress will be made towards the goals stated in this strategic plan.

Under these circumstances, the DA will support the vote. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr S N SWART: Madam Deputy Speaker, whilst the ACDP has indicated that it will accept the budget vote, we again wish to voice our concerns at the high levels of overcrowding in the prisons. Severe prison overcrowding and deplorable health conditions must continually be addressed. Overcrowding is the root cause of health problems and the spread of diseases such as tuberculosis and HIV/Aids in prisons, and thereafter to our communities when prisoners are released.

We also need to continually assess how many awaiting trial detainees who are not a danger to society are unable to pay bail - sometimes as little as R100. There are currently 2 232 unsentenced children under the age of 18 in prisons and six children under 14 years of age. There are 1 926 sentenced children under the age of 18 years in prison and nine children under 14 years of age.

Part of the solution in dealing with the high level of awaiting trial detainees, particularly children, is the application of restorative justice principles, which are premised upon the acceptance of guilt by the offender and the payment of restitution to the victim, where appropriate, or the rendering of community service in cases where there is no danger to public safety. Children should not be kept in prisons where they may be abused or sodomised in so-called universities of crime. Diversion of a child offender who does not present a danger to society is necessary to restore that child to play a meaningful role as a law-abiding citizen.

The key to success in the restorative justice approach is that the public feels safe, the victim is compensated and the criminal has a change of heart, leading to a new way of life. I thank you.

Mr L J MODISENYANE: Madam Deputy Speaker, the Department of Correctional Services has prioritised staff development and training. Management training, policy development, conditions of youths in detention, community corrections, probation, parole and restorative justice all aim to inspire improvement and performance, and not just a changing environment. This also serves to assist the department in defining its role within the justice system.

The achievement of law-abiding behaviour is ultimately a matter of personal choice and individual responsibility. However, many offenders who would not otherwise seek to change will respond positively to a favourable environment, encouragement and support by correction personnel. Correctional services must provide such stimulation and support. Any crime control policy, however, ultimately involves a trade-off between the crime control effectiveness and social costs associated with implementing it.

One must also be concerned with other aspects of costs associated with imprisonment. These costs include nutrition, correctional officials, rehabilitation programmes, correctional managers, the welfare costs associated with supporting prisoners’ families, the lost economy capacity resulting from the removal of workers from the labour force and the dehumanising effects of imprisonment on the prisoners, correctional officials, as well as society.

It is with this in mind that we must acknowledge the many … [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 22 - Defence - put.

Declarations of vote:

Moulana M R SAYEDALI-SHAH: Madam Speaker, in principle, we appreciate, understand and are supportive of South Africa’s role in peace support missions. However, it is equally important that this not be conducted at the expense of national interests. It is important that certain crucial criteria, such as clear entry and exit criteria, domestic and international mandates, and the safety and security of South African troops be factored into any decision to deploy our forces.

The enormous expenditure on such international obligations, such as the R700 million budgeted, is currently conducted at the expense of the Department of Defence. The Special Defence Account, which constitutes 39% of the budget, contains the budget for the arms deal.

We have continuously stated in the past, and state so now, that the arms deal, with its accompanying corruption, is undesirable and too expensive. The fact that the department could not inform the ad hoc committee of progress with regard to the defence industrial participation and national industrial participation flowing from the arms deal, is incredible. It was ultimately the cornerstone upon which the Government justified the unaffordable spending; and the decision to undertake an internal review of the Defence Review appears to be another attempt to justify further unaffordable defence procurement, which could lead to another arms deal fiasco.

The politically motivated decision to introduce strict quotas for affirmative action is proving to be undesirable and unworkable. The lower ranks are 95% black, whilst at the middle ranks there are unsuccessful attempts to reduce the number of colonels, in accordance with the 24% target for white officers. Such strict target setting has, therefore, failed dismally.

Whilst R1 billion is required for the completion and operation of the Rooivalk project, which is of nationally strategic importance, only R600 million has been budgeted. The DA does not support the budget. [Time expired.] [Interjections.] [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, the hon member, in his declaration, made reference to the arms deal and corruption. Now, as far as we know, Chapter 9 institutions investigated this matter. A report was tabled in this House and certain findings were accepted. Could we ask that you look at the hon member’s statement and rule whether what he said was parliamentary?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Nel. We will look into the statement and come back to the House. Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Adjunk-Speaker, die VF Plus is op rekord dat ons gesê het dat ons vredesoperasies steun, en ons verstaan dat daar vredesoperasies ook in Afrika moet wees. Mev die Adjunk-Speaker, ek is egter ook op rekord dat ek gesê het dat die regering daarteen sal moet waak dat Afrika nie sy Viëtnam word nie. As ons vandag kyk na wat gebeur, mev die Adjunk-Speaker, wil ek vandag vir u sê dit is besig om te gebeur.

Ons raak betrokke by sekere operasies, maar die vepligtinge word meer en die gevolg is dat ons binnelands ons begroting so moet aanpas en soveel druk op die begroting plaas dat selfs die moraal van die Weermag besig is om binnelands in duie te stort. Dit, mev die Adjunk-Speaker, is vir die VF Plus onaanvaarbaar, en daarom sal ons ook nie hierdie begrotingspos steun nie. Ek wil vandag vir u sê daar is baie potensiaal in ons Weermag en ons moet dit begin ontgin.

‘n Ander aspek is dat die agb Minister mnr Lekota gesê het dis tyd dat ons verby kleur moet kyk, dat ons almal Suid-Afrikaners moet wees. Ek wil hê hy moet ook met sy agb Adjunk-Minister praat, want die agb Adjunk-Minister het in sy toespraak gekla oor die senior offisiere, veral in die reserwemag, ``because they are too male and too pale’’. So die Adjunk- Minister weerspreek die Minister. Ek wil voorstel dat die Minister sy gesag ‘n bietjie gebruik en die Adjunk-Minister aanspreek daaroor, want hy is nuut in Verdediging. Hy was altyd by Veiligheid en Sekuriteit, maar ek aanvaar omdat hy nog nuut is by Verdediging, moet hy ‘n bietjie aangespreek word.

Mev die Adjunk-Speaker, die VF Plus sal nie hierdie begrotingspos steun nie. Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Deputy Speaker, the FF Plus is on record as having said that we support peace operations, and that we understand that there must also be peace operations in Africa. However, Madam Deputy Speaker, I am also on record as saying that the government must guard against Africa becoming its Vietnam. If we look at what is happening today, Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to tell you that this is what is beginning to happen.

We become involved in certain operations, but the responsibilities increase and the result is that we have to adjust our budget internally and place the budget under so much pressure that even the morale of the internal Defence Force is collapsing locally. This, Madam Deputy Speaker, is unacceptable to the FF Plus, and we will therefore not support this Budget Vote either. I would like to say to you today that there is immense potential in our Defence Force and we should start developing it.

Another aspect is that the hon Minister Mr Lekota said it is time that we look beyond colour, that we should all be South Africans. I would like him also to speak to his hon Deputy Minister, because the hon Deputy Minister complained in his speech about the senior officers, particularly in the reserve force, because they are ``too male and too pale’’. So the Deputy Minister contradicted the Minister. I would like to suggest that the Minister applies his authority a little and speak to the Deputy Minister about this, as he is new in Defence. He has always been with Safety and Security, but I believe that, because he is still new in Defence, he needs to be taken to task a little.

Madam Deputy Speaker, the FF Plus will not support this Budget Vote. Thank you.]

Mnr M S BOOI: Baie dankie, mev die Adjunk-Speaker. Ek wil eintlik nou vervolg op wat die agb lid gesê het, want dit is baie belangrik. Terwyl hy gepraat het, het ek gedink aan toe ons in die Gesamentlike Komitee oor Verdediging gesit het. Ek het gedink aan wat eintlik in die komitee aangegaan het. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mr M S BOOI: Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. I would actually like to follow up on what the hon member said, as this is very important. While he was talking, I was thinking of the time when we were sitting in the Joint Committee on Defence. I was thinking of what was actually happening in the committee.]

What I want to say is that most of the things they are saying, which are related to the committee and to losses and to Africa, have already been related to the committee and, objectively, the Department of Defence has taken it up and has been quite clear about what the DA is raising.

The Special Defence Fund is meant to assist in times of emergencies, at times when the President puts a request to the department to take up these issues.

We have acknowledged, as people from different communities, that the African mission is our responsibility. Although the Minister of Foreign Affairs clearly has a responsibility, the Defence committee has to play a major role in that as well.

Regarding the department itself and how it begins to change its focus, the department has said that it has taken up that responsibility. Additional to what we have said with regard to the internal responsibility related to the role we are playing in assisting the SA Police Service within the country itself, is the responsibility that they themselves have been able to pinpoint, namely that if we continue releasing pressure from them, they will be able to take some of the resources and help us with what we are doing within the African continent.

So, there is no way that we can say those resources are not helping with some of the missions that are taking place on the African continent. I must also say, quite eloquently, that I have been able to deal with the speaker from the DA, during our presentation … [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Independent Democrats and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote - Independent Complaints Directorate - put. Declarations of vote:

Mr R JANKIELSOHN: Deputy Speaker, the DA cannot support a budget that muzzles an important watchdog in our society. The Independent Complaints Directorate is an important organ of state whose task it is to apply oversight over the SA Police Service.

The intake of cases that the directorate had to investigate from 1 April 2003 to 31 March 2004 amounted to 5 882, which is an increase of 32,4% from the previous financial year. There was a substantial 47% increase in serious criminal offences allegedly committed by SA Police Service members. The suspension of about 4 000 police officers who sit at home, at any given time, on full pay, is estimated to cost the Department of Safety and Security about R500 million per year. This is clearly unacceptable, since these police officers are needed on the streets of our country, where about 23 000 people will be murdered and about 52 000 raped this year alone.

Even though the Independent Complaints Directorate budget increased by 13% to R42 114 000 for the 2004-05 financial year, this remains inadequate, given the huge increase in cases under investigation and the resulting cost to the department. Thank you. [Applause.]

Ms M M SOTYU: Madam Deputy Speaker, fighting crime and streamlining the justice process continue to be the ANC’s central priority. The DA tried their best, when they were campaigning for the election, to use crime as their point of entry, and the masses failed to believe in them. So, they decided to sign a contract with the ANC, and fight crime and create a safe and secure environment.

Mr Jankielsohn is being fed information by people outside. He wants to use the portfolio committee as a court of law. There are procedures that are created for you to follow if you experience any maladministration within the Independent Complaints Directorate. The problem with you is that you don’t go to the Independent Complaints Directorate to get the correct information; you are being fed information by the media, and you want us to accommodate that in the committee, which we are not going to do. I thank you. [Applause.] [Interjections.]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting). Vote No 24 - Justice and Constitutional Development - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mrs S M CAMERER: Madam Deputy Speaker, the DA takes the current inability of the Government to fight crime effectively and bring criminals to book very seriously. However, we decided to support the Justice budget this year because we believe that we must give the new ministerial team at the top, which seems to be absent today, a chance to turn the Department of Justice around.

However, the problems which have dogged the department since 1994 have not disappeared. Chief among them is the serious under-resourcing of its core function - our courts. So we are very glad that the Minister of Finance is present here today to hear that our courts are still in a sorry state, according to no less a person than our Chief Justice. We agreed with him when he told Parliament last week that the courts and the judiciary were being seriously undermined because of budgetary constraints.

The result of under-resourcing is vast numbers of vacant posts - some 26%, more than a quarter of the total - which negatively affects service delivery to the public. There is a dire shortage of interpreters and security personnel. Some 3 000 more are needed to secure the country’s 742 courts properly. The constant attacks on magistrates, court personnel and witnesses in courtrooms is the result, and this demeans the status of justice in our country. With few exceptions, court buildings are dilapidated.

The new management system Re a ga boswa, in terms of which management is devolved according to clusters and smaller units, is also doomed to fail according to the Justice Department’s own chief financial officer, unless vast numbers of these vacant posts are filled.

Court backlogs mirror the lack of resources and remain constantly and unacceptably high. The district courts, which dealt with a record one million cases last year, recorded a backlog of 150 000 cases last year. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr S N SWART: Madam Deputy Speaker, there is no doubt that this department is facing severe challenges, as highlighted during the extended committee hearings that were conducted into the budget. There is no doubt, further, that the court services programme is totally under-resourced. This programme thus experiences a significant increase of 16,2%. The question, however, is whether this is enough? Clearly, in our view, it is insufficient to render an accessible, fair, speedy and cost-effective administration of justice.

The ACDP is further extremely concerned about the suspense and deposit accounts. Whilst we appreciate that the amounts in the suspense account are due to write-offs inherited from the former TBVC states, the department needs to finalise this matter as soon as possible.

As far as the deposit account is concerned, we remain concerned that whilst the potential losses may now have been ring-fenced, we still do not know what the exact extent of the loss is, which may run into millions of rands. Approximately R2 billion per annum flows through 530 lower court cash-holds countrywide. As this is a largely manual and paper-based transaction environment, fraud and corruption are rife. I raised this issue last year and am concerned that not enough is being done to address this issue. The state will undoubtedly be held liable to make good these losses which, as I indicated, may run into millions of rands.

However, that being said, we look forward to an unqualified Auditor- General’s report next year and we will support the new team in the Justice Department and the Justice Ministry, and we will support the Budget Vote. I thank you.

Ms F I CHOHAN-KOTA: Madam Deputy Speaker, I rise to assure you that not all our courts are in a sorry state. The Chief Justice knows that for every one court that is bad, there are five other really good courts.

I wish to note the 16,2% increase effected to the court services unit in next year’s budget. This is in addition to an extra R40 million allocated early last year, specifically to fill the vacant posts that the hon Mrs Camerer refers to.

The focus and challenge, however, for the department is to ensure that we get value for money. Additional resources are inextricably linked to value for money, and before I start sounding like Trevor Manuel, we are already notching up significant successes. At the district court level 10 000 more cases were finalised this year than last year. This excludes our Saturday courts that have shown phenomenal results. The case management system is deriving more and more stats. For the very first time we will be able, with scientific data, to plan ahead for the future.

I wish to take this opportunity, and I think I would be remiss if I didn’t, to thank the hundreds and hundreds of good South Africans who every single day go to work and commit themselves in a dedicated fashion, and make the justice system work. And it does work. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to.

Vote 25 No - Safety and Security - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr R JANKIELSOHN: Deputy Speaker, in his state of the nation address, the President made important statements regarding Government’s intentions to deal with crime in South Africa. These include the deployment of 152 000 police officers on the streets by 2006, in line with the DA posters, and the identification and apprehension of the top 200 criminals in South Africa.

Furthermore, the Minister of Safety and Security stated that he would review the salaries of police officers and extend the death grant to off- duty policy officers killed in the line of duty. This is important, since 60% of police officers who are murdered are off-duty at the time of their murder.

Cabinet also indicated that the Government would put measures in place that would bring down contact crimes by between 7% and 10% annually for the next ten years.

The DA therefore supports this budget, but will monitor the targets and timeframes set by the Government to ensure that the Government carries our its traditional function, which is to protect its citizens from violence.

Hon Sotyu, our job as members of Parliament is to do this, not rubberstamp the Government’s decisions, most of which originate from Luthuli House, not from the ground. Thank you, Deputy Speaker. [Applause.]

Ms M M SOTYU: Deputy Speaker, at least this time the member acknowledged that the ANC came first with the deployment of 152 000 police officers. [Interjections.] You stole it from the ANC in 2001! In the ANC’s manifesto of 2004 the ANC committed itself to fighting crime and corruption, strengthening the law enforcement agencies and the criminal justice system as a whole, and improving the safety and security of all our people without discrimination.

Regarding police killings, or rather suicide, I think the Minister explained this to members the day before yesterday. He even explained all the programmes we have to address this issue. A summit was even held in May 2003, where everybody was present. The police, as a stakeholder, was part of that summit where this issue was addressed.

Regarding section 49, we were made to believe by the ICD that the police are at currently very positive about it and understand the issue of section 49. Thank you. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 26 - Agriculture - agreed to.

Vote No 27 - Communications - put.

Declarations of vote: Ms M SMUTS: Deputy Speaker, the hon Minister of Communications can take pride in a number of aspects of Programme 2: Telecommunications of this portfolio. The IPO of Telkom has been a brilliant success and she can take real pleasure in the profits that it has brought to first-time shareholders. The original partial privatisation of Telkom has also brought benefits such as skills transfer during the period of her shareholder stewardship. It has produced at Telkom an absolutely formidable team of executives.

In addition, the main problem at Telkom, the pricing, is not of her original making. This Minister was locked, in my view, into the role of protecting Telkom’s revenues well after the rebalancing of rates was concluded and the setting of the price cap formula passed to Icasa. The fact is that Thintana agreed to invest around R40 billion over five years, on the basis that they would earn later and that Icasa’s proposed price cap in 2001 for 2002 suddenly changed this paradigm.

So although we cannot condone her stance then, the fact is that she has undertaken during our debate this week, in response to our remarks, that she would not block a reasonable rates regime in 2004 for the year 2005, and we welcome that. The left wing of the ruling alliance may wish to note that it was the RDP Minister who got us into all the Telkom trouble. It was Jay Naidoo who struck the deal with Thintana. So many million lines had to be rolled out, even whilst modernising the network, and simultaneously rebalancing rates in preparation for competition.

We are going to object to this Vote, notwithstanding what I have said, because Telkom should long since have had competition, however limited and collusion-prone this is under a duopoly, once again part-owned by the state. That could, in fact, have had some effect on Telkom’s pricing. Now the hon Minister, in our view …

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, your time has expired.

Ms M SMUTS: … can’t hope to report to the President by end of winter. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Mr L M GREEN: Deputy Speaker, as we said in the debate on the Budget Vote, although we are supporting the Vote, we had one very severe reservation. I want to say that although we haven’t attended all the meetings, it doesn’t mean that we cannot express such a reservation. Our reservation is with regard to Icasa and the way in which Icasa has been ruling with regard to instances of allocating licences. Here we particularly refer to community radio stations.

With regard to the litigation - and I think that’s the problem we have - there is no check on the amount of money Icasa is spending on litigation, particularly in respect of community radio stations. We do not seem to have an idea of how much money from this budget is going to be allocated to litigation. We think it is in the best interests of the public, when they evaluate the performance of Icasa, to do so.

There have been quite a number of complaints, and particularly one complaint coming from the Roman Catholic Church with regard to Radio Veritas. This is what they are saying. I just want to quote briefly:

South Africa’s Catholic Church received a proverbial kick in the teeth when Icasa refused permission for Radio Veritas broadcasts to Durban and Cape Town. Aggravating the affront was the regulatory body’s obdurate negligence in notifying Radio Veritas until only three days before the scheduled start of its broadcasts. The short notice ended carefully laid plans at a cost to Radio Veritas. The timing was callous and dismissive of the hard work done by Veritas’ small staff and its volunteers.

We support the Budget Vote, but we do want to send out a message to Icasa to be very careful when allocating licences to community radio stations.

Mr M K LEKGORO: Madam Speaker, I wish to point out that to pick an area of dissatisfaction and cite that as a reason to object to the whole budget is unreasonable. I also want to indicate to Mr Green that what he is raising now, could have been raised a number of times with Icasa when they appeared before us, but as usual his attendance to our committees was few and far between. Some of his questions were raised and adequate answers were provided by Icasa.

From the budget hearings that we had with the portfolio organisations under the department, it is evident that they are at work to implement what the Government has set itself to do. To state but a few successes: Telkom’s recent results; the Post Office’s turnaround strategy; Icasa’s continued diligence in regulating the industry; Sentech’s continued search for how far they can maximise multimedia services to the people; and the SABC’s continued excellence in informing, educating and entertaining the nation constitute evidence in that direction.

In the words of the chair of health, we can only say we are proud to associate ourselves with the budget. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to. (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 28 - Environmental Affairs and Tourism - agreed to.

Vote No 29 - Housing - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mrs C DUDLEY: Deputy Speaker, the ACDP would like to assure the ANC that our 7th member of Parliament who was blocked from attending this housing committee up until now, will be in full force in the times to come. However, we also commend the previous Housing Minister for the work done to address this critical issue. However, we feel that if the corruption and mismanagement relating to Government’s low-cost housing schemes is not seriously addressed all that hard work would be wasted. In many areas the issue of housing has been heavily politicised, and nepotism, corruption and bribery are rife.

The ACDP would like to urge the new Minister to come down hard on officials caught transgressing or benefiting from corrupt practices relating to the building programme. The ACDP feels strongly that more money should be made available for an integrated housing rental policy. The ACDP urges Government to actively pursue a programme aimed at providing low-cost housing for rent as an additional thrust to the housing policy. We recognise that migration of rural communities to sprawling urban centres has placed severe strain on the limited resources available to national, provincial and local Government structures, especially when it comes to delivery of housing and access to central services such as water and electricity. We believe greater emphasis on rural development is key to addressing this problem.

It is incumbent on Government not to merely go into crisis control mode to look at ways of housing millions of people in small confined urban areas where both housing and jobs are scarce. More incentives for industry to relocate to suitable rural areas and rural resettlement programmes with incentives for individuals are needed. The ACDP will support this Housing Budget Vote, which promises to deliver much-needed relief for many. We welcome positive initiatives and will work to help individuals and communities access housing which will empower both men and women and protect our children. I thank you.

Mr G D SCHEEMAN: Deputy Speaker, I would like to say to the hon member of the ACDP that we welcome their commitment to becoming involved in the housing process, because in the last Parliament they did not actively participate with us. If they had attended the Budget briefings that were given by the department, they would have known the various issues that the member has raised, were addressed by the Department of Housing, for instance the establishment of an investigative task team in the Department of Housing to deal with corruption.

For the past decade the housing delivery programme has improved the living conditions of millions of our people. The Budget before us today continues along the path of building sustainable communities through the provision of new houses, the upgrading of informal settlements and the provision of social and rental housing. Emphasis will also be focused on accessing well- located land, close to places of work, with easy access to transport. This will include building new suburbs which reflect a nonracial and an integrated society, both in urban and rural areas.

We in the ANC have no hesitation in supporting Budget Vote No 29 because we know that our Government is committed to improving the living conditions of all South Africans. The confidence of the 70% of South Africans who put their confidence in the ANC was further strengthened yesterday here in the Western Cape when voters in two wards, controlled by the DA up until yesterday, rejected the DA and placed their confidence in the ANC. [Applause.] We in the ANC support this Budget Vote.

Vote No 29 agreed to.

Vote No 30 - Land Affairs - agreed to.

Vote No 13 - Minerals and Energy - put.

Declarations of vote:

Adv H C SCHMIDT: Madam Deputy Speaker, Eskom is faced with a tough challenge to provide affordable electricity, whilst also ensuring that South Africa does not suffer widespread blackouts. Urgent steps should therefore be taken to provide new generating capacity for the growing energy needs from 2007 to 2008 which, we are made to believe, is under way.

The integrated national electrification programme aimed at improving the socioeconomic conditions of households and communities which is to be speeded up from the target period of 10 to 11 years to the more preferred period of 8 years is supported. The implementation of the Minerals and Petroleum Resources Development Act is leading to dissatisfaction and disillusionment with international investors in the mining industry. These companies, which have invested billions of rands in the industry, have been threatening to withdraw due to requirements relating to new exploration application. This matter should be urgently revisited.

We believe that a review of the petroleum market should and ought to be undertaken. Had the petrol price been based on the crude oil price only, the rise of the past 12 months could have been limited to an increase of only 7% as compared to the 30%. Government’s steps to limit the latest increase on the price of fuel by 30c per litre is welcomed. Considering the above the DA supports the Budget Vote. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr E N MTHETHWA: Madam Deputy Speaker, the ANC supports the Budget Vote precisely because of our commitment to, and the contract we made with the majority of the people of our country to fight poverty and create jobs. To this extent, this department and Minister have played a key role in both the conception and implementation of black economic empowerment. The Minister and the department attach considerable importance to mining and energy, as this sector constitutes about 40% of the entire trade value chain in South Africa. It has also contributed to the deracialisation patterns. Perhaps this is the most sticky and problematic point to the DA, but we will continue on this agenda, because the ANC would further urge the Minister and the Ministry to tackle this at an even greater speed.

The transformation of the economy is central to our agenda and this is one of the departments which is going to make that a reality. We will continue empowering the majority of the people of South Africa, especially because we have this devotion and commitment to better their lives. I thank you. [Applause.]

Vote No 32 - Trade and Industry - agreed to.

Vote No 33 - Transport - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr S B FARROW: Madam Deputy Speaker, during my speech on the Vote I maintained that the DA and the department were not poles apart in trying to achieve similar goals for transport in South Africa. It was refreshing to hear in the Minister’s speech the commonalities, shortfalls and problems within the department which we have recognised, and his genuine desire to address them through overhauling, transforming and re-energising his department’s programme and budget.

These focus areas have now been clearly defined and time frames put to them. The DA will eagerly await the completion of these reviews and strategies in September and November of this year in order for the portfolio committee to engage in a more proactive role in preparation of future budgets for this department. In this way Parliament and its members will be able to play a better role in ensuring that its strategic priorities are adequately reflected and that their oversight role can be properly fulfilled, particularly in respect of the numerous badly managed and corrupt agencies like the RAF, Samsa and CAA according to various internal and external audits.

Transport has not been getting its adequate share of the Budget, and the shortfalls have led to severe backlogs and bottlenecks over many years; yet cash cows like Acsa generate billions of rands with no clear agenda for redistribution of its shares, listing to employers and empowerment groups alike. The DA looks forward to significant adjustments taking place in the MTEF reviews later this year and trust that the Minister of Finance will be sympathetic to the Minister’s appeals. No other department is more capable of offering per capita a job opportunity per rand invested than road and rail construction and maintenance. Yet this remains the biggest backlog while essentially being the backbone to the growth of our economy. I wish the Minister success in his bidding process, and hopefully it will not be necessary for me to stand here again next year, objecting to this Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr L M GREEN: Deputy Speaker, the ACDP welcomes the increase in the amount allocated to this Budget Vote. We hope from the Minister of Finance that this is going to be a trend for the future and that this is going to be continued, because I think these funds are sorely needed. However, the one concern that we have is the Road Accident Fund, and we know about the crisis that is happening in this fund. We also note the many media reports regarding this fund and also the unilateral decision not to pay any claims where the claimants refuse to accept payments by installments. Now, this issue was a subject of protracted public hearings, and there were many discussions and deliberations on the Roads Accident Fund Amendment Bill, but the ACDP held the view that the payment of general damages and loss of earning capacity to victims of road accidents in instalments as opposed to the existing practice of paying a lump sum, is unacceptable.

Whilst we appreciate that the Road Accident Fund is in a financial crisis and that the proposal would have assisted the Road Accident Fund with its immediate cash flow, we hold the view the cash flow problem was merely being deferred to a later stage at the expense of victims’ immediate needs. That is why we want the Minister of Finance to look at the budget again and possibly next year increase substantially the allocation to Transport. Thank you. The ACDP will support this Vote.

Mr J P CRONIN: Madam Deputy Speaker, there are some very strange ideas about transport that seem to prevail over there. I am not referring to you, Mr Farrow, but to your colleague, Mr Ian Davidson, because I see he has returned. He told us earlier in his declaration on Public Enterprises that, unless we sell wholesale our public enterprises, we will not get a long-term commitment from the private sector. He used as an example SAA and Swiss Air. Members will remember that SAA sold off 20% to Swiss Air. What happened there is that Swiss Air did not have a long-term commitment. In fact, it didn’t have a medium-term commitment and it didn’t have a short-term commitment. Swiss Air went ``bang!’’ Can you imagine what would have happened if we followed your instructions and advice and sold off SAA? Where would our national carrier be today? It would be in a puddle at the bottom of a Swiss glacier. That is where it would be at present. [Applause.]

Fortunately we did not do that. The ANC - and this is not a u- turn by the way - the ANC is strongly committed to a strong developmental state, a strong developmental parastatal sector - no u-turn. We have always been committed to that. Nothing underlines that commitment and that necessity more than the key strategic priorities that the Department of Transport has set for itself in the coming years. Firstly, there has to be major infrastructural investment in line with Government’s commitment, and although the Minister has his fingers in his ears, he himself has committed to a R100 billion worth of public spend over the next five year in infrastructure - not all of it on transport, but a significant component of it on transport - to address the bottlenecks and to ensure that there is labour intensiveness in the construction of airports, of roads and all of those key priorities.

Secondly, we need to address the issues of public transport to ensure that subsidies travel to the poorest of the poor, so that we are delivering a decent public transport. On its own the private sector is not going to do that. It needs a strong public and parastatal sector to ensure that it happens. Thirdly, we have to ensure that there is safety on our roads. Those are the key priorities, and for these reasons, the ANC strongly supports this Budget Vote. [Applause.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Deputy Speaker, you go so fast sometimes.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Oh! I am so slow in learning, to be slow; but anyway, I will try to be slower.

Mr M ELLIS: So would you please, despite everything, note the objection of the DA?

Vote No 33 agreed to (DA dissenting).

Vote 34 - Water Affairs And Forestry - agreed to.

Question put: That the Schedule be agreed to.

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 243: Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya, S E; Asmal, A K; Balfour, B M N; Bapela, K O; Batyi, F; Bekker, H J; Beukman, F; Bhamjee, Y S; Bhengu, F; Biyela, B P; Bloem, D V; Blose, H M; Bogopane- Zulu, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Burgess, C V; Cachalia, I M; Carrim, Y I; Chalmers, J; Chang, E S; Chikunga, L S; Chohan-Khota, F I; Combrinck, J J; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Davies, R H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dikgacwi, M M; Dipico, E M; Dlali, D M; Dlamini- Zuma, N C; Dodovu, T S; Doidge, G Q M; du Toit, D C; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gabela, L S; Gcwabaza, N E; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gillwald, C E; Gogotya, N J; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Greyling, C H F; Greyling, L W; Gumede, D M; Gumede, M M; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Harding, A; Hendricks, L B; Herandien, C B; Hogan, B A; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Johnson, M; Jordan, Z P; Joubert, L K; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Kondlo, N C; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Likotsi, M T; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Maake, J J; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Maduma, L D; Magau, K R; Magazi, M N; Magwanishe, G B; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Malahlela, M J; Maloney, L; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleka, H P; Manana, M N S; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Martins, B A D; Maserumule, F T; Mashangoane, P R; Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J; Mashile, B L; Masithela, N H; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M H; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbombo, N D; Mdladlana, M M S; Meruti, M V; Mfundisi, IS; Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Moatshe, M S; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mokoena, A D; Molefe, C T; Moleketi, P J; Moloto, K A; Monareng, O E; Moonsamy, K; Morobi, D M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Moss, M I; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpahlwa, M B; Mpaka, H M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthethwa, E N; Mufamadi, F S; Mzondeki, M J G; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngculu, L V J; Ngele, N J; Ngiba, B C; Ngwenya, M L; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Njobe, M A A; Nkuna, C; Nogumla, R Z; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M M; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Padayachie, R L; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Phala, M J; Phungula, J P; Pieterse, R D; Pule, B E; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramphele, T D H; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Roopnarain, U; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E; Schneemann, G D; Seaton, S A; Sefularo, M; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; Sibande, M P; Siboza, S; Sigcau, S N; Sikakane, M R; Simmons, S; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Stofile, M A; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Tshwete, P; Turok, B; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Vezi, T E; Vos, S C; Wang, Y; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M; Xolo, E T; Yengeni, L L; Zikalala, C N Z; Zita, L; Zulu, N E; Zuma, J G.

NOES - 45: Botha, C-S; Coetzee, R; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Doman, W P; Dudley, C; Durr, K D S; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M; Green, L M; Haasbroek, S F; Henderson, R K; Jankielsohn, R; Kalyan, S V; King, R J; Kohler-Barnard, D; Labuschagne, L B; Lee, T D; Lowe, C M; Maluleke, D K; Masango, S J; Minnie, K J; Mnyandu, B J; Morgan, G R; Nel, A H; Opperman, S E; Rabie, P J; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Schmidt, H C; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Smuts, M; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Swathe, M M; Taljaard, R; Trent, E W; Van der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M; Waters, M; Weber, H; Zille, H.

Schedule accordingly agreed to.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY, with leave, moved without notice:

That, concerning the appointment of presiding officers to assist the Speaker and Deputy Speaker as provided for in section 52(5) of the Constitution, the House resolves that -

(1) Assembly Rules 14, 15, 16(2) and 17 and all other provisions in the Rules relating to the Chairperson of Committees and Deputy Chairperson of Committees be suspended;

(2) three positions of House Chairperson be established;

(3) the House must appoint three members as House Chairpersons;

(4) in addition to the Deputy Speaker, the House Chairpersons must preside at a sitting of the House whenever requested to do so by the Speaker;

(5) the Speaker must allocate functions and responsibilities to the House Chairpersons and announce such allocations from time to time, including any functions currently assigned in Rules and orders to the Chairperson of Committees and the Deputy Chairperson of Committees;

(6) whenever both the Speaker and Deputy Speaker are absent or unable to perform the functions of the Speaker, the Speaker or, if the Speaker is not available, the Deputy Speaker must designate one of the House Chairpersons to act as Speaker; and

(7) the Rules Committee must present to the House proposed Rule amendments adapting the Rules accordingly.

Agreed to.

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY, with leave, moved without notice:

That the House appoints the following members as House Chairpersons:

Nhleko, N P; Doidge, G Q M; Botha, C-S.

Agreed to.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

                       (Second Reading Debate)

Mr N M NENE: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy President and hon members. On tabling his budget speech on 18 February 2004, the Minister of Finance, Mr Trevor Manuel, reminded us of the five thematic tasks that have guided the ANC-led Government over the past ten years of our democracy.

These tasks, as set out in the Reconstruction and Development Programme, are that of meeting the basic needs of all South Africans, building the economy, democratising the state and society, developing human resources and implementing and building the capacity and the institutions to deliver. The Appropriation Bill before us today is one of our policy instruments that confirm the ANC’s commitment to the fulfilment of the objectives of the RDP. In our ten years of democracy, South Africans have much to celebrate in terms of the improvement of their standards of living, building the economy, democratising the state and society, developing a skills base and setting up delivery machinery. This Appropriation Bill also goes to the heart of the ANC’s election manifesto and the President’s state of the nation address, which set clear programmatic targets for all key departments to deliver on our contract with the people of South Africa. The allocation of funds to various departments is informed by the material conditions as they obtain in the society as a whole. As you are aware, the departments have tabled their strategic plans for the coming MTEF period. Our task as public representatives is now to ensure that these strategic plans reflect the urgency and the seriousness of implementing the policies that the ANC Government stands for.

This task of oversight is not only confined to the members of the ANC, but to all public representatives across the political spectrum and all spheres of government. As the ruling party, the ANC signed the people’s contract to create work and to fight poverty on behalf of all political parties represented here. The people’s will will be respected as such.

Allow me to remind this House of some of the key features of this year’s budget. Firstly, the expansion with regard to housing delivery, water and community services have been the fastest growing categories of expenditure over the past decade; secondly, the continued extension and improved spending on health services, which has also grown in real terms by 4,3% in the past decade; thirdly, the broadening of the tax base in the interest of fairness and efficiency; fourthly, the continued management of public finances in a responsible manner that ensures that debt service cost decline as a share of expenditure and of GDP; fifthly, the releasing of resources for productive service delivery.

These commitments are further confirmed by the President’s state of the nations address, as I have indicated, where he presents a detailed programme of action to respond to the challenges of the second economy. The Expanded Public Works Programme, according to this programme, will be launched in all provinces by September 2004, with particular focus on the 21 urban and rural nodes. Once these are launched, the role of public representatives, once more, becomes crucial in monitoring the implementation of these programmes such that social and economic infrastructure is developed. The programme also affords an opportunity for human resource development, enterprise development and poverty alleviation. To facilitate the financing of these programmes, the President refers to the financing protocol relating to the urban renewal and rural development programme, which will be finalised by July 2004 and is intended to improve effective coordination between the three spheres of government and the different departments.

The Apex fund, dedicated to the extension of micro credit, will also be operational by the end of this year. These and many more are concrete measures that the ANC-led Government is in the process of honouring regarding its side of the people’s contract. Ours again will be to oversee the implementation of this programme instead of voting against it, as we have seen the DA do in terms of objecting to a number of Budget Votes that matter to the people of South Africa, especially the poor.

The DA objected to the Budget Vote for provincial and Local Government. They voted against the Public Works Vote. They objected to the Public Enterprises Budget Vote. They objected to the Arts and Culture Budget Vote. They objected to the Education Vote. They objected to the Health Vote. They objected to the Votes on Labour, Defence, ICD, Communications and Minerals and Energy. They even objected to the Transport Vote. They went on to vote against the Health and Labour Budget Votes. This is all done in the name of opposing, without considering the plight of the poor, whom they claim to represent outside this Chamber, but vote against the improvement of their lives in the process. The ANC supports this Budget Vote.

Ms R TALJAARD: Madam Deputy Speaker, may we state for the record that we consider it undesirable to conduct a First Reading and a Second Reading debate in two different Parliaments.

The Appropriation Bill before this House budgets for expenditure of R369 billion in this financial year and a budget deficit of 3,1%, which drops to 2,8% the following year - an important signal to the markets as it constitutes a continuation of the sound fiscal management commended in a recent Article IV IMF report. Regrettably, this report, which was critical of other key areas of Government’s economic policy, did not inform either the First Reading debate during the Budget or the election, because the Minister of Finance took a unilateral decision that this would not be the case.

However, given the President’s speech yesterday and the policy shifts it contains - or call it a renewed emphasis, if you wish, hon Cronin - there is no doubt that the next Article IV consultation report will lead to an even more interesting debate, as will the next meeting of the President’s International Investment Council in the wake of his speech yesterday.

In this modern political world we find ourselves in, nothing is entirely of the left, nor is anything entirely of the right. It is not only cuisine that has become eclectic; policy itself has become, as well. We certainly also do not merely live in a binary political world of the neo- conservatives or conservatives and the ideological pool of the broadly described left, as the President chose to characterise it - a convenient ideological divide that is often constructed in South Africa more in the interests of political expediency than in the interests of enlightened and enlivened debate. Liberalism exists, but, as was clear again today, it is anathema to the ANC, as it was anathema to the NNP. It is not anathema to the DA and it never will be, not locally and not globally.

The realities of global economic liberalism have led the SDP and New Labour to adopt clear reforms according to the PFI and other initiatives taken that were referred to in this House yesterday. Minister Manuel, those who live in eclectic policy glasshouses that mix and match ideological positions must refrain from throwing political stones. In modern-day politics there are not many political parties with economic positions that meet this clear ideological purism articulated before this House by the President yesterday. As the left was indicated, it is also equally not as ideologically pure any longer.

The Bill before us and the allocations that it contains go to the core of the debate on the role of the state in a modern society. The real debate in South Africa’s political economy discourse is not a binary one between libertarian free-market economics and a developmental or enabling state, as the President called it at the progressive governance conference. It is and should be a lively debate about the appropriate role of the state in a modern economy and the tolerable line between the state and market in a modern, globalised economy.

Again, as this House was reminded yesterday, ours is a view that says: as much market as is possible and as much state as is necessary. Anything to the contrary is disingenuous and dishonest. Perhaps the best answer in starting a debate on this will be the debate on the appropriate role of the state and the rise of the regulatory state, which is the feature of the modern economy. This is certainly where a more productive and fruitful debate is to be found.

It is interesting to note some of the points of comparison between the neo- conservative economic policy the President complained about in the USA and the ANC’s version of elite-based black economic empowerment. The neo-con agenda in the United States has mastered the art of enmeshing private interest and policy access in a feeding frenzy of economic access for the politically connected few. While the US policy has been ridiculed by those of the de-elect Bush campaign as the leave no billionaires behind'' policy - and those who want to see this can see it; it's one of the campaign issues in America - it's quite clear that the ANC's BEE strategy increasingly harbours and borders on being nothing short of the Bushites' leave no billionaires behind’’ policy, instead of being truly and truly convincingly broad-based.

One of the key challenges will continue to be the financing of BEE and it will continue to be a focus areas that we will engage quite critically in the lead-up to the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement. It was also one of the key areas in the IMF report.

Unfortunately, Minister, we are unable to support … [Inaudible.] [Time expired.]

Mr T E VEZI: Madam Deputy Speaker, I think I must mention to the Minister of Finance that it is unfortunate that history has destined us to eat from the same plate because of the nature of our constituencies sometimes. Because of that, I would just like to say that contributions have been made and concerns have been expressed by the IFP and various other parties in this matter. The IFP urges the hon Minister to take these on board during the next Budget cycle.

The IFP supports the Bill. Thank you.

Mr Y WANG: Madam Deputy Speaker, hon members, thank you. It is quite clear that there is never enough money to address the pressing needs in South Africa, so the ID supports the vote, but we would like to note that we must get the priorities right. The priorities are that we must fight poverty, HIV and Aids, crime and unemployment.

I would just like to inform all the hon members that there is one question that keeps coming up for me, namely that I still haven’t got my ID yet, but I’ll keep you updated. Thank you. [Laughter.]

Miss S RAJBALLY: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. This year’s Appropriation Bill has clearly outlined the aims, objectives and priorities of the South African Government. The alleviation of poverty and social and economic development appear to be our primary focus for the faculties and departments.

The MF is proud of our achievement over the past 10 years and applauds our efficient Department of Finance under the auspicious leadership of our hon Minister of Finance, hon Trevor Manuel, for implementing our funds to the best advantage of South Africa.

Hon Minister, a good plan has been devised for the 2004-05 financial year. We eagerly await the ENE and efforts of each department to utilise these funds wisely to enable the benefits we aim to achieve. We are, however, noting shortfalls and needs in each department. We hope for no rollovers. Use these allocated funds to the best of your abilities to fulfil the needs of our masses.

The MF supports the Appropriation Bill. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker and hon members. Firstly, may I express appreciation for the general support on the First Reading debate of the Schedule. We’ll come to the Second Reading debate in a moment. However, it’s important to see this Budget in the context of continuity, and in the context of continuity, certainly, when the President stood at this podium on 21 May and gave us our marching orders. These are the spending plans for those marching orders.

When we tabled the Budget in February we were pretty clear about the outcome of the election. We knew that the message of the ANC would resonate with people and, indeed, on 14 April that came to pass. Now we have to implement, and in implementing I think we know how rooted we need to be in the people.

In this context it’s important to ask: What on earth happened to the hon Taljaard? It may have been the stay at Yale or some other place where the neo-cons hang out, because there’s total confusion at the moment. There’s a market fundamentalism that pretends not to be a market fundamentalism. There was a statement earlier that the Washington Consensus is a work in progress and a statement by the hon Davidson earlier, saying, ``Oh, please let’s have the Washington Consensus only.’’

She says there isn’t a binary debate, but every position she takes comes from far, far, far right. You’re stuck, Madam. You’re stuck and that’s the problem. We have to resolve these issues going forward, but perhaps what is most important is that the people have spoken, but in the people speaking there are other issues, as well.

In fact, she’d be surprised to learn that in the meeting of the International Investment Council there is such a broad support for the positions of the ANC. There is support amongst all of those businesspeople that black economic empowerment is necessary in South Africa. There is no criticism about that. Even the Article IV report, both last year and the work done by the Article IV mission this year, would confirm that position. The DA, however, would like us to be stuck.

You saw earlier the difficult position that the hon Seremane was in. He stood up to applaud the President; his leader pulled him down. They were totally embarrassed, because we know the messages that resonate with all South Africans. [Applause.] We will not be atomised, as the position of liberalism says: we have no place, we have no base, we have no roots, we have no class, we are just atoms thrown together in a sovereign territory for a short period of time. Those aren’t the positions of the ANC.

Chair, I’d like to thank the Joint Budget Committee for their work in preparing this process. I’d like to express appreciation to the ad hoc committees for their engagement with the Budget issues, and I’d like to welcome the chair of the Budget committee, Nhlanhla Nene. We look forward to close collaboration in the future. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Bill be read a second time.

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 212: Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya, S E; Asmal, A K; Bapela, K O; Batyi, F; Beukman, F; Bhamjee, Y S; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, M J; Biyela, B P; Bloem, D V; Blose, H M; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Burgess, C V; Cachalia, I M; Carrim, Y I; Chalmers, J; Chang, E S; Chikunga, L S; Chohan-Khota, F I; Combrinck, J J; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dikgacwi, M M; Dipico, E M; Dlamini-Zuma, N C; Dodovu, T S; Doidge, G Q M; du Toit, D C; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gabela, L S; Gcwabaza, N E; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gogotya, N J; Gololo, C L; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Gore, V C; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Herandien, C B; Hogan, B A; Huang, S; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Johnson, M; Joubert, L K; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Kondlo, N C; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Likotsi, M T; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Maake, J J; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Maduma, L D; Magau, K R; Magazi, M N; Magwanishe, G B; Mahomed, F; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Malahlela, M J; Maloney, L; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleka, H P; Manana, M N S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Martins, B A D; Maserumule, F T; Mashangoane, P R; Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J; Mashile, B L; Masithela, N H; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M H; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbombo, N D; Mdladlana, M M S; Meruti, M V; Mfundisi, IS; Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mlangeni, A; Moatshe, M S; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mokoena, A D; Molefe, C T; Moleketi, P J; Moloto, K A; Monareng, O E; Montsitsi, S D; Morobi, D M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, L N; Moss, M I; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpaka, H M; Mshudulu, S A; Mzondeki, M J G; Ndzanga, R A; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngiba, B C; Ngwenya, M L; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Njobe, M A A; Nkuna, C; Nogumla, R Z; Nqakula, C; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M M; Nwamitwa- Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Padayachie, R L; Pahad, A G H; Phadagi, M G; Phungula, J P; Pieterse, R D; Pule, B E; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramphele, T D H; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Roopnarain, U; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E; Schneemann, G D; Seaton, S A; Sefularo, M; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; Sibande, M P; Siboza, S; Sigcau, S N; Simmons, S; Smith, P F; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Stofile, M A; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Tshwete, P; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Vezi, T E; Vos, S C; Vundisa, S S; Wang, Y; Woods, G G; Xolo, E T; Yengeni, L L; Zita, L; Zulu, B Z; Zulu, N E; Zuma, J G.

NOES - 38: Camerer, S M; Coetzee, R; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Doman, W P; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M; Haasbroek, S F; Henderson, R K; Kalyan, S V; King, R J; Kohler-Barnard, D; Labuschagne, L B; Lee, T D; Lowe, C M; Masango, S J; Minnie, K J; Mnyandu, B J; Morgan, G R; Nel, A H; Phala, M J; Rabie, P J; Schmidt, H C; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Smuts, M; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swart, P S; Swathe, M M; Taljaard, R; Trent, E W; Van der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M; Waters, M; Weber, H; Zille, H.

ABSTAIN - 4: Durr, K D S; Green, L M; Khumalo, M S; Swart, S N.

Bill accordingly read a second time.

                    TAXATION LAWS AMENDMENT BILL

                       (First Reading debate)

Ms B A HOGAN: Madam Speaker, the Bill before the House today is a Bill that amends our taxation laws. We amend our tax legislation in this House at least twice a year. This Bill that is before us now is one of the simplest of the Bills. The Bill that is going to come to us later is much more complex. It is a compendium Bill. It deals with amending a whole range of taxation laws, and, therefore, it is not a Bill that starts at a point and moves on to the end.

A lot of it deals with bringing into legislation the income tax schedules that were announced in the Budget. I don’t propose dealing with those, and my colleague, Ms Rhoda Joemat, will deal with those. I am not going to deal with this Bill in a great deal of detail. There are not many significant clauses to the Bill which I think need special recommendation.

There are one or two amending clauses that, I think, are important. One particularly relates to the biofuel industry. This is an alternative fuel source for energy, environmentally friendly and important for environmental changes. Up to now, the only depreciation allowed to people in the biofuel industry has been for farmers who grow crops. However, after that, in the production on biofuels, no special tax depreciation was allowed. This Bill rectifies that problem.

So, we now have a comprehensive depreciation range for the biofuel industry, and that is indefinitely to be welcomed. We note that laws protecting the environment, particularly as regards the taxation and levying of matters relating to the environment, are increasingly coming into our taxation law. That, I think, is very important.

I do want to make a couple of comments, though, about our taxation regime as a whole. In the past couple of years we have put through a raft of changes to our taxation laws. One of the many changes that we introduced is tax incentives for different industries. These tax incentives have been specifically focused on giving incentives to different kinds of industries.

My problem at this stage is that, in fact, we do not have a proper mechanism for determining how effective these tax incentives are, and I would request the Ministry and SARS to look at a system in co-operation with the relevant departments of just assessing how effective these tax incentives are being used. There is one incentive that has enjoyed enormous popularity, and we are already seeing the benefits thereof. That is the tax incentive given to those developers who want to improve the inner cities of our country. It is very pleasing to note that this is going to be an ongoing tax incentive, it is not limited, and already we are seeing the enormous interest in our cities in this tax incentive, and how development, which would not normally have come there, is flowing into those areas. We see here that the inner city of Cape Town has been transformed as a result thereof.

I certainly hope, though, that with this tax incentive we do focus on making our inner cities liveable for all kinds of people, not just simply for the rich or the middle class. It is encouraging that here in Cape Town they are talking of suburbs outlining the inner city, such as Woodstock, Salt River, etc. However, I do believe these tax incentives need to be focused so that we do not create havens of luxury in the midst of outlying suburban poverty.

We do not need a rewrite of our taxation laws. Anyone who has seen the taxation handbook knows it is thick. We in the committee, especially my colleague, Dr Woods, have for a long time been calling for a revision of our taxation laws and a pulling together. At the moment we just have laws that are amended every year, and a huge book on amendments. It is very difficult to actually get the legislation just in Act form. We need that rewrite. SARS has committed itself to it, but in the interests of all our taxpayers, I think we do need to have a complete rewrite, also one that is still user-friendlier.

There was a period in time in Parliament, particularly during the writing of the Constitution, when emphasis was on writing laws that were simple, particularly in English, never mind other languages. Tax law is complex; you do have to be precise. Often it is incredibly inaccessible. I know members on our committee often battle just with the complexity of the language of the law itself. I do believe that tax compliance means that we need to be making it easier for people to understand our laws.

Another area that I think we need to look at, and this had been addressed in the budget review, is the question of to what extent our laws and other matters in the regulatory environment are friendly to small to medium enterprises. We have focused on many tax laws that give a special dispensation to small to medium enterprises. I still believe though, from personal experience, and I am not a small businessperson myself, but from the experience of people whom I know, that the tax dispensation for small to medium enterprise is very confusing. People have to fill in endless forms and submit them, and they often do not understand the purpose of these forms. I really do believe, and it has been said, that National Treasury and SARS will have to look at this. I think it needs to be looked at as a matter of urgency.

Finally, this has been a particular issue of mine, and I have spoken about it time and time again, amending money bills legislation. At this stage we are still in a situation where the committee looks at a draft of a Bill. We can make recommendations about changes to that draft, but no one is obliged to even take into consideration those amendments.

I have always been very encouraged by the meticulous and scrupulous attention that SARS and National Treasury have always paid to our recommendations, and also to every issue raised by every person who comes before our committee. In fact, they are exemplary in this way and have always responded to every matter raised by every person who has come before our committee. Still, it does leave Parliament disempowered, and in my thinking about it I have thought that maybe we need to distinguish between two types of tax legislation; the one deals with actual figures and says that our schedules will mean that taxes will go up and down by so such or such a percentage, that transfer duties will be this and that, and certainly, you want the National Treasury to be able to drive a process without undue interference from a legislature.

However, then there are other tax laws that do not refer to quantum, and I think there we do need to look at bringing in Parliament. God help us, I really hope that in this session of this Parliament we will bring in a taxation Bill to empower Parliament to amend money Bills. That would mean that taxation laws would at least be amendable before our committee, but perhaps we need to look at distinguishing between the two types of taxation laws.

With that I commend this Taxation Laws Amendment Bill to this House. The ANC is in support of it, and I wish my following speakers great resolve in being creative in speaking on this Bill. I think we need to give a creativity award to all members who speak on taxation laws, because it is dead boring. Thank you. [Laughter.] [Applause.] Dr P J RABIE: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister, hon members, the Taxation Laws Amendment Bill is a technical Bill which, in essence, will implement the taxation proposals set out by the hon Minister in his Budget Speech in February this year. Clause 1 of this Bill encourages the acquisition of property by law to middle-income households, especially regarding transfer duties. The exempt threshold is increased from R140 000 to R150 000 from 1 March and this is commendable. The effective tax relief is also granted for all properties valued at one million rand and below. In actual fact, this will reduce the tax burden in all property transactions by R500. Stamp duties on mortgages and negotiable certificates of deposits are removed. Economic growth and the variables that trigger growth are extremely complex. The proposing clause 1 of the Bill will enable thousands of South Africans to become home owners which, in turn, will result in increased investor and consumer confidence.

Vergrote huiseienaarskap skep welvaart onder die vaste bates wat as ‘n potensiële hefboom vir die verkryging van addisionele bates kan dien. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Increased home ownership creates prosperity as fixed assets serve as a potential lever to obtain additional assets.]

Personal income tax, income tax relief and income tax interest exemption have been increased. The specific tax rate adjustments are set out in clauses 3 and 6 of the Bill. Thousands of retired South Africans are dependent on savings. The Democratic Alliance welcomes the increase in the primary rebate from R5 400 to R5 800 and the secondary rebate for persons 65 years and older from R3 100 to R3 200. These changes have increased tax thresholds for individuals under the age of 65 to R30 220 and for individuals above 65 years to R50 000. Interest and dividend exemption for the tax year 2004-2005 below 65 will be R11 000, and above 65, R16 000. These rate changes are welcomed and may provide some financial relief to the retired members of society.

Clause 11 of the Bill that relates to fuel is significant seeing the context of the present high cost of crude oil and the limited potential future reserve of fossil fuels. In the submission to this Portfolio Committee on Finance, it was mentioned that Germany invests something like 6 billion a year in renewable funds into the energy industry and that this sector employed 120 workers in Germany. Afgesien van omgewingsfaktore soos besoedeling, is dit gebiedend noodsaaklik dat die openbare en private sektor hierdie wetgewing benut wat klousule 11 van hierdie wet aan hulle bied. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Apart from environmental factors such as pollution, it is essential that the public and private sectors use this legislation which clause 11 of this Bill offers them.]

The production of biofuels is most cost-effective if it is produced near the source where the oil sea crops are harvested, resulting in significant employment opportunities in rural areas. The rate of unemployment in especially some of our rural areas is of great concern and we hope this particular legal provision will alleviate this problem. This Bill also provides a preferential tax depreciation write-off to farmers, provided that the assets must have been brought into use for the first time by the farmer if he cultivates oil seeds and so forth.

The amendment to Section 13 in the Bill removes the deadline for municipalities to earmark areas eligible for tax incentives in respect of urban development and renewal of zones. The new provisions of the Municipal Finance Management Act linked to Section 13 of this Bill, will assist municipalities to speed up their inner city renewal projects across the country. The degree of urban decay in some of our inner urban CBDs is also a matter of concern and the DA welcomes this particular provision.

This Bill also provides for customs and excise schedule amendments. The Portfolio Committee on Finance studied clauses 2(1) and 26 and 42(t). The tax changes in 2003 ensured that the new mineral resource dispensation created by the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act - MPRDA - from transfer duty. Capital gains tax, VAT under the current law, and existing mineral right orders can convert or renew old order rights to a new order right tax free, also from transfer duty. What is significant, however, is that this does not apply to new rights that the state may wish to award.

Another class of minor taxation that remains in the ambit of the transfer duty is the acquisition of mining rights between private parties. The current profit income tax for mining companies will stay in place until a holistic mining policy is completed and finalised by the end of 2004. This Bill also provides for further miscellaneous provisions, the tightening up of areas around the capital gains tax - a tax that we from the DA oppose. It is an expensive and extremely complex form of taxation and it is very costly to administer. Mr Minister, I could not disagree with you more.

South Africa is becoming part of a global economic village where people vote with their feet and sell their skills in the global market. A number of South African companies have recently listed themselves overseas and can be truly categorised as multinational companies. One of the shortcomings of this proposed legislation is that it leaves corporate rates and the company schedule of the Income Tax Act unchanged.

Daar het heelwat verligting van persoonlike inkomstebelasting die afgelope aantal jare plaasgevind. Hierdie is n positiewe verwikkeling. In vergelykende terme betaal die Suid-Afrikaanse belastingbetalers en ondernemers egter veel meer direkte en indirekte belasting as hul eweknieë in van ons belangrike handelsvennootlande. Vergun my die geleentheid om te meld dat die koste van veiligheid en sekuriteit, gesondheid en onderwys dikwels vanuit finansiële persoonlike bronne aangevul moet word en nie volkome deur die openbare sektor gedek word nie. Is dit nie miskien tyd dat daar op n deurtastende wyse deur die Tesourie gekyk word waar belasting besnoei kan word nie? Bo en behalwe word ondernemers en belastingbetalers toenemend deur tweedevlak- en derdevlakregeringsinstellings geteiken vir verdere belasting. Hierdie voortdurende vergrote of addisionele belastingheffing behoort indringend hersien te word, en daar moet gekyk word na voorstelle wat die belastinglas vir die gewone belastingbetaler kan verminder. Die enigste liggaam wat dit wel kan doen, is die Nasionale Tesourie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[In the past few years there has been considerable personal income tax relief. This is a positive development. In comparative terms South African taxpayers and entrepreneurs are paying much more direct and indirect tax than their peers do in some countries of our important business partners. Grant me the opportunity to mention that the cost of safety and security, health and education often has to be augmented from personal financial sources and is often not completely covered by the public sector. Isn’t it perhaps time for the Treasury to take a thorough look at where taxes could be cut? Over and above this, second and third-tier government institutions are increasingly targeting entrepreneurs and taxpayers for further taxes. This constantly increasing or additional levying of taxes should be comprehensively revised, and suggestions should be looked at that could reduce the tax burden of the ordinary taxpayer.The only body that can, in fact, do this is the National Treasury.]

Clauses 5 and 7 of this Bill enable the South African Revenue Service to delegate the approval function to the Financial Services Board to create a one-stop approval system. The DA supports this proposal. At present no provision exists for the payment of interests on refunds for overpaid tax on retirement funds. The DA is in agreement that refund interests be provided by SARS. The DA supports this Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr T E VEZI: Mr Chairman, at one stage I was tempted to go through the Bill clause by clause, but since I believe that the previous speakers have done that adequately, I will not dwell on that. Most of these amendments, if not all, are contained in the Minister’s Budget Speech and were, in fact, debated and laid to bed in the same debate. The transfer duty amendment is heartily welcomed by the IFP as it encourages the acquisition of property and grants effective tax relief to the low-income earners. The IFP, however, regrets that these things have come too late, as the previous victims of the Group Areas Act can no longer benefit from these reliefs.

We pray that all these amendments will mean the dawning of hope to the majority of our people who have been waiting patiently for sustainable employment opportunities and the alleviation of poverty. The IFP hopes that these amendments will contribute materially to improving growth prospects, development and employment creation to the personal income tax relief and encouragement of investment measures to boost household savings and reforms to stimulate enterprise development. In conclusion, the IFP supports the Taxation Amendment Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]

Miss S RAJBALLY: Thank you, Chairperson. It is always taxation legislation that is eagerly awaited by many and they look for suitable adjustments in our hon Finance Minister, Trevor Manuel’s Budget Speech. The Minority Front notes the importance of tax used for state revenue, bearing in mind that this is the revenue that betters the lives of the poor. Often taxes are a burden to many who slog long hours to earn their money. The Minority Front is pleased with matters of tax regarding transfer duty on properties, but finds the rates of tax on larger properties are a bit stiff. Tax on mineral rights holders appears to have a strategy to encourage new players into the market. Tax regarding rebates appears to be suitable. Pension funds tax adjustments in the light of SARS are agreed to and the interest exemptions are fine.

Taxes on biofuels are seen as an adjustment, but the Minority Front does not really support the high petrol price that hinders South Africans’ cost of living. The adjustment to toll roads taxes is approved, but the Minority Front feels that charges at these stops should be maintained at a minimum, unless it is for business travels and for trucks. We are especially pleased with taxes on cigarettes and alcohol, but feel that the advertising of alcohol should also be prohibited, as in the case pf cigarette advertising, so as to assist in campaigning against intoxication and alcoholism. I am sure that the retroactive repeal of stamp duty on mortgage bonds pleases many, as well as stamp duty on negotiated bill certificates. The Minority Front supports the Taxation Laws Amendment Bill.

Since I have a few seconds, may I also take this opportunity to make an announcement that the Minority Front won the by-election in ward 52 in Phoenix, KwaZulu-Natal. Once more they gave the DA a good thrashing. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mrs R R JOEMAT: Chairperson, hon members, as we celebrate 10 years of freedom this year, South Africa has much to be proud of. The public finances are well managed and we have a sound, growing economy. In the past week we have been listening to the debates on the Budget Votes of various departments, and they outlined their strategic plans for their departments. Strategic planning is all about mapping out a framework and vision for the departments and projecting an estimated budget to finance that vision. The departments did that very well, because we are the ANC- led Government.

However, the DA’s projected figures were incorrect for the outcomes of 2004 elections. They projected a percentage of 25%, and in certain instances they even projected 30% support, but they only received 12,37% of the national vote. That is what you call overestimation by approximately two million voters. We must be glad that Mr Gibson is not the Commissioner of the SARS. The country would have been in serious financial trouble!

To project is to have a realistic figure and a realistic vision. Implementation and delivery are the most important aspects of all of these projections and visions. This Taxation Law Amendment Bill is all about implementation. The Minister of Finance made announcements in his Budget Speech that have tax implications, and by passing this Bill, we are implementing those announcements. When we listened to the Budget Speech, I am sure we all wondered who would benefit and who would have to share.

I will give a broad outline of the beneficiaries: Personal income tax is cut again; interest income exemption is raised to R11 000 for people under 65 and R16 000 for senior citizens; the 2004 tax proposal seeks to further encourage acquisition of property for low and middle-income households; effective tax relief is granted for all properties valued at R1 million and below; transfer duty’s threshold is raised from R140 000 to R150 000, thus reducing the tax burden on all property transactions by R500; and stamp duties on mortgage loans were eliminated as from 1 March 2004. This is to encourage and assist many low and middle-income tax payers who struggle to find the necessary funds to acquire their first property.

My father used to say: “Buy a plot to build a house. It is the best investment, because God is not going to make more land available for the people.” The area for the beneficiaries is the elimination of ad valorem excise duties on certain products. We know with this relief there is a tax relief for everyone.

Let us also unpack the givers or the sharers - those who can still afford to indulge in the sins and luxuries of life. As the preacher said, “You shall pay for your sins”. Excise duties are increased: Malt beer is up 4c per can; wine is up by 21c; and spirits is up by R1,76 per bottle. That leaves a dry feeling in the throats of many of these consumers. However, there is hope, because no increase is proposed on sorghum beer, but the price of cigarettes is increased with 64c per pack of 20 and the fuel levy was also increased.

The transformation of the SARS into an example of efficient and good management is an inspiration for all of us. The tax relief that is made possible is accredited to the efficient tax collection of SARS and the implementation of a new enforcement strategy by SARS that targets areas of high risk and aggressive tax planning practices. This has resulted in a significant increase in the total revenue contribution of individuals and corporate tax.

The President reappointed the Commissioner for another term and we want to congratulate him. The SARS team must also be thanked for the excellent work they are doing and, finally, just a friendly reminder to all in the House and the public, as we are well aware or not aware, the cut-off date for the submission of tax returns to SARS for the 2004 tax year is 9 July. We urge all to comply so that we can make this country a better place for all to live in.

The ANC supports the Bill. Thank you. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson, you know democracy requires that I speak here this afternoon. The speakers’ list says that I have 25 minutes, but I have been lobbied across the House not to use all of my time. We can’t undermine democracy in that way. [Laughter.]

This is clearly the least controversial Bill. It says a lot about where we’ve come from and where we are. There can be few other parliaments around the world that would deal with the significant changes to tax law in the way that it is being dealt with here. The committee has been very diligent and the hearings, I think, have been quite exhaustive so the debate here reflects pretty broad consensus on the issues. Some of the ideas that emerged in the debate, and some that preceded the discussion here in the House we will clearly take forward. The mammoth task of going through a tax rewrite is something we’ve spoken about.

The challenge of trying to get it into plain English, I don’t think so. You know these lawyers; it’s all that they have, and if you try to take it away from them, you will get into very serious trouble. Are you out of the coffin handle business now, Michael?

Mr M J ELLIS: Absolutely, long ago!

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: But the tax law rewrite is something we must undertake. The hon Rabie appealed for tax cuts for persons. Now, it’s very important that we recognise the study by the International Management Development Institute in Lausanne on South Africa in comparison with other countries. We were rated number one in the world regarding personal income tax rates and the effectiveness thereof. So, we have a tax system that is effective, certainly in respect of persons. However much people lobby and however much people dislike tax, it is important to recognise where we are on those league tables and the effectiveness thereof. So, the reduction of rates is not something we would commit to now.

The second point that the hon Rabie raises is that it is important that we transfer taxing abilities to second and third tiers of Government, as he suggested. Some may be very sensitive and insist on using the word spheres here, but I agree with the tiers notion. If you look at Germany, the fiscal difficulties in Germany are as a consequence of the inability of German cities to raise the taxes that they are meant to raise. The transfers have increased and deficit is blown out of proportion in Germany, so we need to be very careful. We have an effective machine in the SARS, and we shouldn’t destroy it merely for the sake of handing over taxing powers, because we are looking at economies of scale and efficiencies as well.

I’ve got another 20 minutes left, so let us speak a bit slower and express our sincere and profound appreciation for support on this Bill. Thank you very much. [Laughter.]

[Applause.] Debate concluded.

Bill read a first time.

                    TAXATION LAWS AMENDMENT BILL

                       (Second Reading debate)

There was no debate.

Bill read a second time.

The House adjourned at 17:32. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism

 (1)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 11 June 2004 in terms of
     Joint Rule 160(3), classified the following Bill as a section 75
     Bill:


     (i)     Public Investment Corporation Bill [B 6 - 2004] (National
          Assembly - sec 75)

National Assembly

1. Membership of Committees

 (1)    The following changes have been made to the membership of
     Portfolio Committees, viz:


     Communications:


     Appointed: Wang, Mr Y (Alt).


     Finance:


     Appointed: Davies, Dr R H; Green, Mr L M.
     Discharged: Durr, Mr K D S; Nene, Mr N M.


     Foreign Affairs: Subcommittee on International Affairs:


     Appointed: Wang, Mr Y (Alt).


     Justice and Constitutional Development:


     Discharged: Gaum, Adv A H.


     Minerals and Energy:


     Appointed: Mthethwa, Mr E N.
     Discharged: Goniwe, Mr M T; Greyling, Mr L W.


     Provincial and Local Government:


     Appointed: Green, Mr L M (Alt); Greyling, Mr L W (Alt).
     Discharged: Batyi, Ms F; Khumalo, Rev M S.


     Public Enterprises:


     Appointed: Carrim, Mr Y I.
     Discharged: Martins, Mr B A D.
     Sport and Recreation:


     Appointed: Khompela, Mr B M.
     Discharged: Carrim, Mr Y I.


     Trade and Industry:


     Appointed: Durr, Mr K D S; Martins, Mr B A D.
     Discharged: September, Ms C C.


     Water Affairs and Forestry:


     Appointed: September, Ms C C.
     Discharged: Khompela, Mr B M.


 (2)    Mr N H Masithela has been elected chairperson of the Portfolio
     Committee on Agriculture and Land Affairs with effect from 24
     June 2004.


 (3)    Ms M M Sotyu has been elected chairperson of the Portfolio
     Committee on Safety and Security with effect from 24 June 2004.


 (4)    Mr S L Tsenoli has been elected chairperson of the Portfolio
     Committee on Arts and Culture with effect from 24 June 2004.


 (5)    Mr F Bhengu has been elected chairperson of the Portfolio
     Committee on Public Works with effect from 24 June 2004.


 (6)    Ms E Thabethe has been elected chairperson of the Portfolio
     Committee on Environmental Affairs and Tourism with effect from
     24 June 2004.


 (7)    Ms F I Chohan-Kota has been elected chairperson of the
     Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development
     with effect from 24 June 2004.


 (8)    Ms Z A Kota has been elected chairperson of the Portfolio
     Committee on Housing with effect from 24 June 2004.


 (9)    Mr P J Gomomo has been elected chairperson of the Portfolio
     Committee on Public Service and Administration with effect from
     24 June 2004.


(10)    Ms T J Tshivase has been elected chairperson of the Portfolio
       Committee on Social Development with effect from 24 June 2004.


(11)    Mr J P Cronin has been elected chairperson of the Portfolio
       Committee on Transport swith effect from 24 June 2004.


(12)    Mr B A D Martins has been elected chairperson of the Portfolio
       Committee on Trade and Industry with effect from 24 June 2004.


(13)    Ms C C September has been elected chairperson of the Portfolio
       Committee on Water Affairs and Forestry with effect from 24
       June 2004.


(14)    Mr E N Mthethwa has been elected chairperson of the Portfolio
       Committee on Minerals and Energy with effect from 24 June 2004.


(15)    Mr Y I Carrim has been elected chairperson of the Portfolio
       Committee on Public Enterprises with effect from 24 June 2004.


(16)    The following members have been appointed to serve on the
       Subcommittee on Review of the National Assembly Rules:


     African National Congress
     Jeffery, J H
     Masutha, M T
     Thabethe, E


     Ngaleka, E (Alt)


     Democratic Alliance
     Schmidt, H C


     Inkatha Freedom Party
     Van der Merwe, J H


     United Democratic Movement
     Bici, J


     African Christian Democratic Party
     Swart, S N


     Minority Front
     Rajbally, S


(17)    Adv M T Masutha has been appointed as chairperson of the
       Subcommittee on Review of the National Assembly Rules with
       effect from 11 June 2004.

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Finance

 (a)    Report of the Executive Officer of the Financial Services Board
     on the Road Accident Fund - 10th Report for 2002-2003.


 (b)    Report and Financial Statements of Sasria Limited for 2003.


 (c)    Government Notice No 423 published in Government Gazette No
     26203 dated 31 March 2004: Amendment of the Rules of the
     Government Employees Pension Fund in terms of the Government
     Employees Pension Law, 1996 (Act No 21 of 1996).
 (d)    Government Notice No 445 published in Government Gazette No
     26219 dated 31 March 2004: Supplementary adjustments to local
     government allocations for 2003-2004 in terms of the Division of
     Revenue Act, 2003 (Act No 7 of 2003).


 (e)    Government Notice No 446 published in Government Gazette No
     26220 dated 1 April 2004: Local Government allocations for 2004-
     2005 in terms of the Division of Revenue Act, 2004 (Act No 5 of
     2004).


 (f)    Government Notice No 444 published in Government Gazette No
     26230 dated 1 April 2004: Allocations made to the provinces in
     terms of section 7 of the Division of Revenue Act, 2004 (Act No 5
     of 2004).

National Assembly

1. The Speaker

 Report of the Public Protector on an investigation into allegations of
 improper conduct in connection with the maintenance shutdown at and
 subsequent failure of the PetroSA refinery near Mossel Bay. COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Assembly

1. Report of the Ad Hoc Committee on Public Enterprises on Budget Vote 9 - Public Enterprises, dated 23 June 2004:

   The Ad Hoc Committee on Public Enterprises and Administration, having considered Budget Vote 9 - Public Enterprises, reports that it has concluded its deliberations thereon.

CREDA INSERT - Insert No 2 from “ATC0624e” CREDA INSERT - Insert No 3 from “ATC0624e” CREDA INSERT - Insert No 4 from “ATC0624e” CREDA INSERT - Insert No 5 from “ATC0624e”