National Assembly - 20 October 2004
WEDNESDAY, 20 OCTOBER 2004 __
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
____
The House met at 15:02.
The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.
CONGRATULATIONS TO NATIONAL COMMISSIONER JACKIE SELEBI
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House -
1) notes –
(a) the appointment of National Commissioner of the SA Police
Service, Jackie Selebi, as the president of the International
Police Organisation; and
(b) that Commissioner Selebi is the first African to hold this
post.
(2) Recalls -
(a) the courageous commitment of Commissioner Selebi as Vice-
President of Interpol for Africa since 2002; and
(b) that Interpol, with its 182 member states, facilitates
cross-border co-operation and supports all authorities whose
mission is to prevent or combat international crime;
(3) believes that Commissioner Selebi’s election will strengthen the AU’s role in the international arena, and his experience as Commissioner of the SA Police Service will prove valuable to Interpol member countries;
(4) endorses Commissioner Selebi’s commitment to help strengthen
Interpol’s weaker regions; and
2) congratulates Commissioner Selebi on his election as Interpol
president, and wishes him all success.
Agreed to.
BEST WISHES TO KELEBOGILE MASEKO
(Member’s Statement)
Ms J L FUBBS (ANC): Hon Deputy Speaker, hon members of the House, the ANC welcomes the assistance given by the MEC for health in the North West Province to 16-year-old Kelebogile Maseko. She has been suffering from kidney problems for some time and her family could not afford to pay her escalating private medical bills for the treatment. Since her case came to the attention of the MEC for health, Comrade Mandlenkosi Mayisela, a possible donor has been found in her brother, Tshepo. The last blood tests done on Kelebogile and her brother were found to be compatible.
The cost of private health care continues to exclude the poor, even in moments of the most critical need. It is for this reason that the ANC supports the efforts of the Ministry of Health to reduce
the general cost of health care in South Africa and for South Africans.
The ANC wishes Kelebogile Maseko a speedy recovery. [Applause.]
LAND REFORM DISCREPANCIES
(Member’s Statement)
Mr A H NEL (DA): Baie dankie, Voorsitter. Die SAKP se Rooi Oktober-veldtog vir grondhervorming is hoogs onverantwoordelik en sal slegs meebring dat onderhandelings vertraag word en rassespanning onnodig toeneem. Is die werklike rede nie om ’n baie emosionele saak soos grondhervorming te misbruik vir politieke doeleindes nie? Dit lyk asof Dr Nzimande, die leier van die SAKP, se standpunt teen grondhervorming soos in die Grondwet bepaal, ’n aanval is op sy alliansievennoot, die ANC se markgedrewe ekonomiese beleid. Miskien moet die President miskien weer ’n slag die ultralinkses vasvat. Meer onheilspellend nog, is dat Mayende, die DG vir Grondsake hierdie veldtog verwelkom vir die politieke gewig wat die SAKP, volgens hom, agter grondhervorming ingooi. Hierdie amptenaar van die staat vereenselwig hom met beleidstandpunte wat direk indruis teen die Grondwet van die land. Die algemene beleid van die regering, asook uitsprake oor grondhervorming van die Minister van Landbou en Grondsake. Dit is hierdie kontrasterende uitsprake tussen ’n Minister en haar amptenaar en tussen alliansievennote wat vertroue in Suid-Afrika se ekonomiese stelsel en die bestuur daarvan ondermyn en veroorsaak dat mense huiwerig is om hier te belê. [Translation of Afrikaans member’s statement follows.]
[Mr A H NEL (DA): Thank you very much, Chairperson. The SACP’s Red October campaign for land reform is highly irresponsible and will only result in negotiations being delayed and racial tensions being increased unnecessarily. Could the real reason not be that the very emotional issue of land reform is being misused to serve political purposes? It seems as if the standpoint of the leader of the SACP, Dr Nzimande, against land reform as stipulated in the Constitution, is an attack on the market-driven economic policy of its alliance partner, the ANC. Maybe the President should tighten his hold on the ultra-left group again. What is even more portentous is that the DG of Land Affairs, Mayende, welcomes this campaign for the political clout that the SACP, according to him, is putting behind land reform. This state official is identifying with policy standpoints that are in direct opposition to the Constitution of the country, the general policy of the government, and also pronouncements about land reform by the Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs. It is these contrasting pronouncements between a Minister and her official and between alliance partners that undermine confidence in South Africa’s economic system and the management thereof, causing people to be hesitant to invest here.]
The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Madam Deputy Chair, could the officers please check the interpreting for us. We could not hear the speaker because there was some American election campaign going on. So, we couldn’t pick up the sound.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Sorry about that, Minister. We will certainly attend to that.
POLICE OFFICERS SUSPENDED
(Member’s Statement)
Mr V B NDLOVU (IFP): Madam Deputy Chair, two police officers attached to the Khayelitsha Magistrates’ Court have been suspended pending the outcome of a criminal investigation. The two police officers were arrested on charges of corruption after allegedly smuggling drugs to awaiting-trial prisoners.
This type of behaviour from people who are supposed to uphold the law and set an example is totally disgraceful. It is through these incidents that corrupt and unlawful police officers tarnish the good name and reputation of, and undermine the good work that is being done every day throughout the country by many outstanding police officers.
These corrupt officers must be weeded out after thorough investigation, dealt with if the public confidence is to be restored in the Police Service, and fired thereafter.
WORLD OSTEOPOROSIS DAY
(Member’s Statement)
Mr I M CACHALIA (ANC): Madam Chairperson, hon members of the House, today the African National Congress joins the international community in observing 20 October as World Osteoporosis Day. We affirm our commitment to increasing the awareness of the condition of osteoporosis among South Africans.
Osteoporosis is a condition whereby bones become porous and thus fragile and weak, and are liable to break very easily. It is estimated that 1 in 3 women and 1 in 12 men will contract the condition during their lifetime. Heavy drinking and smoking are significant contributors to this condition.
There are, however, natural ways to reduce the chances of contracting the disease. Eating healthy food is one critical route; reducing weight through natural means and exercising also plays an important role in the prevention and management of the condition.
The ANC encourages all South Africans to adopt healthy eating habits, good and sensible lifestyles and to exercise regularly.
INCREASE IN KIDNAPPING CASES
(Member’s Statement)
Ms N M MDAKA (UDM): Madam Chair, the UDM is disturbed by an apparently increasing trend towards the kidnapping of young people and children, especially girl children, in the country.
Though some, like the case of Leigh Matthews, become headline news, many of these cases are hardly reported in the media. However, it seems that these cases are prevalent throughout the country.
We call upon government to create immediate response units across the country to ensure that the moment a person is reported missing, a dedicated team of specially trained officers take charge of the case. It seems that often the people who are kidnapped in these circumstances have one or two days before the inevitable murder occurs. The police’s ability to respond quickly and effectively to make use of this window of opportunity in the first two days is therefore of paramount importance.
While most police officers are dedicated and committed to serving their communities, the complexities and time constraints of kidnapping cases are factors that they are simply not trained to deal with.
We contend that the current child protection units should have dedicated, trained officers who can be called upon whenever a case of this nature is reported. In this way, we can save not only … [Time expired.]
PROPOSED TOLL ROAD A THREAT TO DUNE MINING IN PONDOLAND
(Member’s Statement)
Mr L W GREYLING (ID): Madam Chair, the Independent Democrats call on the government to be transparent in its handling of the proposed N2 toll road and dune mining in the Pondoland region. The proposed developments threaten to irrevocably change the region and a vision needs to be drawn up with all role-players and local people for the area. This has often been stated by Minister Van Schalkwyk, but the ID has seen very little action to back up his words.
At a meeting with the Pondoland Royal House in July, the ministerial delegation attempted to lock out all other stakeholders from the meeting. Thankfully, they failed, but departmental officials did manage to bar the media from the event. The ID finds these actions completely unacceptable and against the spirit of transparency.
A speech was then given to certain members of the media at a press conference held at Umtata. It was passed off as being a speech by King Sigcau and in it support is given to both the mining and N2 toll road. I heard every word of the king’s speech, and he certainly did not give his support to these developments.
Minister Van Schalkwyk also assured the Royal House that he would run full public participation processes with the people of Pondoland. It has been three months and still we see no action. Instead we hear of media walkabouts being planned with select members of the press and the Director- General of Environmental Affairs and Tourism. It is not the media that the government needs to talk to. They need to listen to the people of Pondoland. The ID calls on the Minister to live up to his word and run these processes in a transparent and inclusive manner.
GOVERNMENT’S ABORTION CAMPAIGN
(Member’s Statement)
Mrs C DUDLEY (ACDP): Madam Chair, health committees and provincial legislatures have been discussing the abortion amendment Bill this past week, but the public have been refused the opportunity to make submissions.
Government is proceeding with the further liberalisation of the abortion law, which will put increased pressure on pro-life health professionals to do their abortions for them. The nurses’ union, DENOSA, has repeatedly said two thirds of their members are against abortion, but it is clear that government is intent on imposing these amendments on South Africans; once again determined to ignore the will of the majority on this issue as they did in 1996.
A recent HSRC study confirms that more than half of South Africans are of the opinion that abortion is wrong under any circumstances, with 64% of this number being the opinion of black South Africans. Many more believe it is wrong but acknowledge specific circumstances.
Doctors for Life in South Africa have questioned the legality of the process going on in the provinces at present where the public and interested bodies like themselves have been denied the right to make submissions on the Bill.
The purpose of the new Bill is to make abortions more accessible but no attempt has been made to rectify the appalling deficiencies of the present legislation whereby mandatory provisions for counselling and obtaining the patient’s informed consent are often flagrantly ignored. In addition, despite the fact that the purpose is to increase demand and delivery of abortions, nothing has been done to ensure personnel will be available to carry out the task.
It is of course well known that government expects doctors and nurses to take part in abortions regardless of their convictions and this Bill clearly claims to facilitate greater participation.
GREAT ARTS AND CULTURAL FESTIVAL - MACUFE
(Member’s Statement)
Mofumahatsana K R MAGAU(ANC): Modulasetulo, mokete o moholo wa matsatsi a leshome wa bonono le botjhaba ba Afrika, Macufe, o sa tswa ho feta ka katleho e kgolo matsatsing a tswa feta. Mokete ona o bontshitse moya o motle o renang ka hara naha dilemong tse leshome tsena tsa tokoloho eo re e ketekang. Makgolo a mabedi a dikete tsa batho a bile teng moketeng ona wa Macufe, hoo ho bileng le ditholwana tse ntle moruong wa baahi ba Freisetata. Katleho ena e netefaditse hore Macufe e na le thaka tse mmalwa haholo ka hare ho naha.
Macufe e itshupile hantle jwalo ka sebaka se kgethehileng sa ho bontsha bonono le botjhaba ba Afrika le ba matjhaba a fapaneng ka ho neha monyetla ho bomaithutwane ho tsa bonono le botjhaba moketeng o moholo hakaale. Mmuso wa Freisetata, bahwebi le setjhaba, ba bontshitse kamano tsena di phapaleditse moruo matla a kgolo, haholo Mangaung.
Mokgatlo o moholo wa ANC re itumeletse ha Macufe e tsepamisa tsamaiso ya setjhaba ka setjhaba molemong wa sona le boAfrika Borwa ba rona boo re leng motlotlo ka bona. Ke a leboha. [Mahofi.] (Translation of Sotho member’s statement follows.)
Ms K R MAGAU (ANC): Chairperson, the ten-day African arts and cultural festival, Macufe, was successfully hosted during the past few days. This festival was a manifestation of the good spirit prevalent in the country over the last ten years of freedom we are celebrating. Two hundred thousand people attended Macufe, and that had a positive impact on the wealth of the citizens of the Free State province. This phenomenal success has ensured that Macufe has few competitors nationally.
Macufe has proved itself beyond doubt to be a venue conducive to showcasing African arts and culture internationally by giving opportunities to beginners in arts and culture to display their talent in such a big festival. The Free State provincial government, business and the people have all shown that such relations have a great potential for economic growth, especially in Bloemfontein.
As a big ANC party, we are pleased because Macufe focuses on administration of the people by the people for their benefit, and on our being South African, which we are proud of. Thank you. [Applause.]]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I hope the House knows that Macufe is a wonderful acronym for the Mangaung Cultural Festival.
DARFUR CRISIS
(Member’s Statement)
Mr D H M GIBSON (DA): Madam Chairperson, Chad, Sudan, Egypt, Libya and Nigeria announced this week that Darfur is an African problem needing an African solution. They are quite wrong. Darfur has been described as the world’s greatest humanitarian crisis. This being so, it is a problem for the whole international community, not just Africa.
I want to warn against declarations made, knowing that the AU does not have the resources to make a meaningful difference in Darfur. False challenges for the AU will simply undermine it and discredit it before it has got off the ground. The international community has a responsibility as large as Africa’s. We need money and resources to help alleviate the suffering and the human tragedy which is unfolding before the averted eyes of many. South Africa must use its prestige to persuade the rest of the world to assist the African Union. We must not be accused of having pursued quiet diplomacy in the face of the displacement of a million people and the rape and murder of tens of thousands of others. [Applause.]
ROAD CARNAGE IN NORTH WEST
(Member’s Statement)
Mr B E PULE (UCDP): Madam Chair, the UCDP has noted with concern the carnage caused on the roads between Koster, Lichtenburg and Mafikeng in the North West. This is because the road between Swartruggens and Zeerust has become very expensive owing to the exorbitant charges at the tollgate.
The bypass through Boshoek, Tlokweng and Pella is also of concern as the congested traffic passes through these villages en route to either Botswana or Mafikeng. This traffic consists mainly of trucks. Both these roads have now become killer roads. It should also be noted that these roads have not been designed to carry such heavy traffic.
The intervention of the Department of Transport will be highly appreciated because the Botswana government has also imposed a levy of 40 pula for every car entering Botswana from South Africa. Previously, South Africans only paid 10 pula for the whole year, as opposed to 40 pula for every trip you undertake to Botswana. Thank you.
CONGRATULATIONS TO WINNERS OF COMMUNITY BUILDER AWARDS
(Member’s Statement)
Nkskz B TINTO (ANC): Umbutho wesizwe I-ANC uvuyisana kwaye wothulela umnqwazi lamaqobokazana angamashumi amathathu anesithandathu (36) ngokuphumelela kwabo iimbasa ngenxa yemisebenzi ekuhlaleni. Baphumelele imbasa eyaziwa njenge-Women Waging Peace Award. Baphumelele le mbasa ngenxa yemisebenzi efana nokulwa ubukrelemnqa, ukulwa ukuxhatshazwa kwabafazi kunye nabantwana.
La maqobokazana enza lemisebenzi engajonge ntlawulo okanye nzuzo koko kukuthanda abantu. Unkskz Nono Silimela waseNyanga East, uNkskz Gladys Mjezu wase New Crossroads, uNkskz Roeda Gallant wase Manenberg kunye nomama Aziza Rasoel ngamanye amakhosikazi athe aphumelela lembasa. La maqobokazana angumzekelo omhle kwaye angumngeni kulutsha lwanamhlanje ukuba lufake isandla ekwakhiweni kwesizwe nokulwa intlupheko nendlala ekuhlaleni. Ndiyabulela. [Kuyaqhwatywa.] (Translation of Xhosa member’s statement follows.)
[Mrs B TINTO (ANC): The people’s organisation, the ANC, congratulates and takes its hat off to 36 working women for winning awards due to their service in the community. They won the award known as the Women Waging Peace Award. They won this award due to services such as their fight against crime and against the abuse of women and children.
These working women perform these services without expecting any remuneration or benefit, but just for the love of the people. Mrs Nono Silimela of Nyanga East, Mrs Gladys Mjezu of New Crossroads, Mrs Roeda Gallant of Manenberg and Mrs Aziza Rasoel are some of the women who won this award. These women are a good example and a challenge to today’s youth to contribute to community building and the alleviation of poverty in our community. Thank you. [Applause.]]
COSATU AND THE NATIONAL GOVERNMENT
(Member’s Statement)
Dr S M VAN DYK (DA): Geagte Voorsitter, lede van die publiek het met verbystering kennis geneem van Cosatu se roekelose aanslag op deelnemende regering. Die media berig dat Cosatu met die ANC se nasionale koukus beraadslaag het en aangedring het op voorkeurbehandeling wat betref die parlementêre strukture in die bepaling van nasionale beleid. Dit skep noodwendig ’n ondraaglike situasie omdat Cosatu in dieselfde verklaring die sakesektor, wat verantwoordelik is vir die Suid-Afrikaanse ekonomie, as magte van vernietiging beskryf.
Cosatu maak daarop aanspraak dat hy ’n inspraak het in die samestelling van die regering - dit terwyl sy lede net uit 1,3 miljoen mense bestaan, wat slegs 3% van die bevolking in Suid-Afrika verteenwoordig. Cosatu behoort duidelik kennis te neem dat hy nie deur kiesers verkies is om op ’n politieke grondslag te regeer nie, en dat die vakbondorganisasie in terme van individuele steun geen legitimiteit geniet as ’n politieke party nie.
Dit sal ’n kwade dag in Suid-Afrika se geskiedenis en vir die demokrasie wees indien die ANC hom aan sy neus sal laat rondlei deur ’n klein, nie- politieke organisasie. Dit is ook kommerwekkend dat die ANC nog nie sedertdien standpunt ingeneem het teen Cosatu se opdringerigheid van deelnemende regeerder nie. Dit skep die persepsie dat die ANC-meerderheid gedienstig is aan die Cosatu minderheid se arrogante eise. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans member’s statement follows.)
[Dr S M VAN DYK (DA): Hon Chairperson, members of the public have taken note of Cosatu’s reckless attack on participatory government with some perplexity. The media reports that Cosatu has deliberated with the ANC’s national caucus and has insisted on preferential treatment regarding the parliamentary structures in determining national policy. This unavoidably creates an intolerable situation as Cosatu has, in the same statement, described the business sector, which is responsible for the South African economy, as powers of destruction.
Cosatu lays claim to having a say in the constitution of the government – this when its members comprise only 1,3 million people, which represents merely 3% of the population of South Africa. Cosatu should clearly note that it has not been elected by voters to govern on a political basis, and that the trade union organisation cannot lay claim to any legitimacy as a political party on the grounds of individual support.
It will be a dark day in the history of South Africa and for democracy if the ANC allows itself to be led by the nose by a small nonpolitical organisation. It is also worrying that the ANC has since then not taken a stand against Cosatu’s obtrusiveness as an element of participatory government. This creates the perception that the ANC majority is subservient to the arrogant demands of the Cosatu minority. [Applause.]]
EDUCATION NEEDED ON HIV/AIDS AND SEXUAL VIOLENCE
(Member’s Statement)
Ms M M MDLALOSE (IFP): Madam Chair, a study published recently in the British Medical Journal which was based on a national survey of nearly 300 000 children, aged between 10 and 19 years old, and taken from 5 162 classes in 1 481 South African schools, has revealed some very alarming and disturbing views on sex and violence, as well as HIV and Aids.
Many of the children believe that raping someone you know or unwanted touching are not seen as examples of sexual violence. If we are to overcome and survive the HIV/Aids pandemic, as well as put an end to the culture of sexual violence that is plaguing our country, we have to start by ensuring that our youth are better educated and informed on these issues.
Government, parents, teachers and all other relevant parties should intensify efforts to try and educate our youth on issues such as HIV/Aids and sexual violence so as to wipe out the frightening and inaccurate misconceptions that many still have on these issues.
ARTWORKS IN FOYER OF PARLIAMENT
(Member’s Statement)
Mr D V BLOEM (ANC): Chairperson, on entering the Chamber this afternoon, hon members would have passed an exhibition of portraits of Cabinet Ministers, including that of President Mbeki and Deputy President Jacob Zuma in the exhibition area within Parliament.
This is no ordinary exhibition. It is an exhibition of the artwork of a young man named Gareth James. He hails from Belhar on the Cape Flats, and he is incarcerated in Goodwood Correctional Centre. He is one of thousands of young men and women in correctional centres throughout the country. He is paying his debt to society for a crime that he has committed and been convicted for.
His talents and skills with paintbrushes are nurtured in prison. He is part of a generation of our youth caught up in crime. Prison should not be the place for him and others such as him. Through the rehabilitation programmes of Correctional Services young Gareth is given a second chance in life.
The ANC believes that we must become aware of the wasted skills and talents that are behind prison walls. In fighting the scourge of crime, we must give more Gareths hope for the future and assist them in becoming our future leaders, artists and entrepreneurs. Well done, Gareth! [Applause.]
LAND RESTITUTION
(Minister’s Response)
The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Chairperson, I want to thank my colleague, Minister Manuel, for helping we with the translation of the statement of the hon member, which I didn’t hear. When I listened to the interpreting earlier, I really thought I was in Washington or somewhere in California, listening to the campaign and the assessment of how the race for President is going in the US. But I am in South Africa.
An HON MEMBER: How is it going?
The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Well, I would have loved to tell you, but it will take my time and the hon Chairperson will ask me to sit down.
I have noted the concern raised by the member, but I don’t agree with the statement that the campaign by the SACP would in any way undermine the economic policy of the ANC with regard to the land reform issue. That I would not agree to. Probably, it is necessary for me to indicate to the hon member that the alliance is a strategic alliance. As independent bodies with views on matters, sometimes we agree and sometimes we don’t. That doesn’t mean that we are not in alliance.
So, in this instance, regarding the campaign of Red October, the SACP is within its rights to express its view, as your own party at some stage did express its view on the basic income grant, and interestingly at that time you were on the same side as the SACP, Cosatu and the SACC on the matter. [Laughter.] [Applause.] That didn’t make a shift in any economic policy or in the social policy we have chosen.
But nonetheless, on the issue of the civil servants and how they express themselves, I’ll take note of that matter and have discussions with the director-general regarding the matters you have raised.
Indeed, all of us will appreciate that the land matter is a very emotive issue and not an easy one, but with humility and responsibility we need to find the solution to this challenge. Obviously, as we move towards the deadline of meeting particularly the restitution cases, there will be all sorts of emotions expressed, as we have seen also in the hearings that have taken place. I therefore hope that the member, with others and myself in this House, will ensure that we support the resolution of this matter in a manner that is amicable and that creates stability in our country. Thank you. [Applause.]
COSATU AND THE NATIONAL GOVERNMENT
(Minister’s Response)
The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Xa engafun’ ukusebenza ndithini? [If someone does not want to work, how do I made them work?] Chair, I just want to inform the House that Cosatu is the biggest labour movement in this country. It is an organisation that has been tried and tested in the struggle in this country. They fought for our liberation; they fought for our freedom. In 1994 workers of this country put us where we are today. This democracy belongs to the workers of this country. It belongs to Cosatu.
Yes, we have political freedom, but Cosatu knows - like I know, like the ANC knows, like the SACP knows - that we have not achieved economic freedom. [Applause.] It is therefore crucially important for Cosatu to continue to raise these issues until we achieve the economic freedom that we have been fighting for in this country of ours. We are not here to represent our jackets; we are representing those members who elected us. Viva, Cosatu, Viva! [Applause.]
ARTWORKS IN FOYER OF PARLIAMENT
(Minister’s Response)
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, as much as we have zero tolerance on crime, we have to be humane when dealing with offenders. These jackets represent human beings who wear them and who have made mistakes in society. We have to be humane when we correct them.
I want to thank the hon member for bringing to the attention of this House the artistic abilities of Gareth James and the plight that faces juveniles and young people in correctional centres throughout our country. Gareth James is serving a 10-year sentence at Goodwood Correctional Centre. He is 26 years old and is sitting up there in the public gallery.
He is one of the thousands of young people in our prisons. This is no place for them, but they have offended society. I fully agree with this and they must pay their debt to society. However, their incarceration should never be punitive in nature. It should rather be directed at them as they accept responsibility for their actions, as they correct their offending behaviour and prepare themselves for the day when they are released and integrated back into society.
Gareth is no different from those. He has such ideals and wants to forge a career out of his artistic skills. Before entering prison, he had never painted in oil and had never had formal training. He wants a qualification that will prepare him for life after his release.
As the Department of Correctional Services, we can offer him the materials to engage in his God-given talent. But, we are also asking society out there to assist us. The first seat of correction is the family. If the family is not playing its role in carrying out corrections, our jails will be overflowing with young people who should not be in jail, such as Gareth. [Applause.]
POLICE OFFICERS SUSPENDED
(Minister’s Response)
The MINISTER FOR SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, there are three statements that were made today that fall within the ambit of my line function. I am going to respond to those statements. I am wondering if I should not also respond to something that was said here yesterday. [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs C-S Botha): Minister, I think you should confine yourself to today’s discussion.
The MINISTER FOR SAFETY AND SECURITY: Thank you very much. The first matter was, of course, raised by the hon Ndlovu. I am very happy that he raised the question of misdemeanour on the part of some of our police officers. He was correct when he said that there are many we arrest who act in the way that those two police officers at Khayelitsha acted. We are going to deal with people like that because they do not belong in the Service when they do not service our people in ways that are prescribed in terms of our programme for safety and security in this country.
I am therefore responding to your question and, at the same time, sounding a further warning to police officers who act in this way. They are going to be arrested and prosecuted. As I say, there are a number of examples of instances when we have acted in that way.
A UDM member talked about kidnapping and made reference to the abduction and murder of Leigh Matthews. The member also made a suggestion about specialised units to deal with matters such as this. I would like to indicate that, indeed, we have well-trained police officers. The mere fact that they were able to investigate as thoroughly and as exhaustively as they did in order to arrest the …
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs C-S Botha): Hon Minister, your time has expired. But please continue and finish off your sentence.
The MINISTER FOR SAFETY AND SECURITY: I am responding to three statements. The first statement related to what the hon Ndlovu had raised. I am now dealing with the second statement from the UDM member.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs C-S Botha): Minister, if I understand correctly, Ministers have two minutes within which they have to respond. There is a maximum of five ministerial responses and we allow two minutes per Minister’s response.
The MINISTER FOR SAFETY AND SECURITY: Fine then, but not unless you are suggesting that I have already exhausted my six minutes.
Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Chair, may I suggest that the hon Minister acquaints himself with the Rules with regard to members’ statements. You are quite right that in actual fact the Minister has two minutes.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs C-S Botha): Thank you. Hon Minister, that is the position. However, there is one more opportunity for a Minister to respond. If no other Minister is going to respond, perhaps you would like to take those two minutes and continue.
Mr T M MASUTHA: Madam Chairperson, on a point of order: I just wanted to find out, if you could rule, at what stage Mr Mike Ellis acquired the status of a presiding officer to make rulings on these questions.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs C-S Botha): I think I could have managed that one by myself. Thank you very much. Minister, there is an opportunity of two minutes. If you wish, you could continue to respond.
The MINISTER FOR SAFETY AND SECURITY: I want to use those two minutes to apologise to you if I have violated the Rules of this House. I wish to indicate that throughout, from when we started this exercise, I was under the impression - and in fact this what I had done - that each statement merited two minutes in answer. But, if that is wrong, I apologise.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs C-S Botha): Thank you very much. May I just, perhaps, spell out for the House the Rule that does exist which states that a maximum of five ministerial responses are allowed. A response should not exceed two minutes. The executive is recognised in the following order: the Minister, Deputy Minister and Minister of the same cluster. Therefore, I wish to repeat again: There is an opportunity for a fifth response, Minister. Feel free to use it.
Thank you. If not, then we will proceed. The Secretary will read the first Order of the Day.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE
ON FINANCE - SECURITIES SERVICES BILL
There was no debate.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, we move that the report be adopted.
Motion agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.
SECURITIES SERVICES BILL
(Second Reading debate)
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon Chairperson, hon members, the Security Services Bill brings regulation and supervision of South Africa’s capital markets, including the custody and administration of securities, the provision of clearing have services and the control of market abuses in line with international standards on securities regulation. The Bill consolidates and modernises provisions contained in the following four pieces of legislation: The Stock Exchanges Control Act, the Financial Markets Control Act, the Custody and Administration of Securities Act and the Insider Trading Act. The Bill also repeals these four Acts.
The objects of the Bill before the House are, firstly, to increase confidence in the South African financial markets by requiring that securities services are provided in a fair, efficient and transparent manner; secondly, to promote the protection of regulated persons and their clients; thirdly, to reduce systemic risks in our markets, and fourthly, to promote the international competitiveness of the securities services in our markets.
I would like to highlight new features contained in this Bill, which relate to previously unregulated matters. These are the following: Firstly, there is the business of buying and selling unlisted securities. The registrar may under certain circumstances prohibit a person from carrying on such businesses or impose certain conditions thereon. Secondly, regarding the reporting of off-market transactions in listed securities, it is only prudent that such transactions are reported to the registrar and to the relevant exchange on which the securities concerned are listed. This is also an approach followed internationally. Thirdly, in the Bill provision has been made for the registrar to assume responsibility for the functions normally performed by an exchange if it is considered necessary to do so.
In future, approval to be a nominee who acts as a registered holder of securities on behalf of other persons will be required. The nominee will either have to be approved by the relevant exchange, the central securities depository or the registrar. We also make provision for the demutualisation of self-regulatory organisations under the ambit of the Bill, and for the possibility of the amalgamation of two or more exchanges or central securities depositories. This is a forward-looking provision that reflects the flexibility of the Bill.
The regulation of demutualisation amalgamation of such bodies has become necessary in the wake of international trends. At the 1999 annual meeting of the World Federation of Exchanges at least 46 of its 52 members indicated that they were in the process of demutualisation or were intending to demutualise.
Lastly, let me mention that the Bill also establishes an enforcement committee with the power to impose an administrative sanction on a person who fails to comply with the provisions of the Bill. Insider trading is to be dealt with severely. The fine for what is broadly termed “market abuse” has been increased substantially to a fine not exceeding R50 million, or imprisonment for a period not greater than 10 years, or both.
I hereby present the Securities Services Bill to the House for consideration and approval. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mrs R R JOEMAT: Madam Chairperson, hon members, from the start I would like to bring to the attention of the House that the Bill is also available in isiZulu.
Certain Bills that our committee deals with are of a highly technical nature and this Bill is one of them. I ask myself how this Bill will improve the lives of the people in my constituency. Will it make a difference in the lives of the majority of people who voted for the ANC? I do not have a clear yes or no answer, but what I can say is that we need to regulate the South African financial markets to ensure that revenue that is due is collected, and by achieving this we then can insure that the income that we do derive from this Bill will be spent, especially on the poor.
The word “security” basically means an undertaking of payment for loans and to give a guarantee to do so by pledging the transaction on documentation. As evidence of the loan, certificates of stocks, bonds, etc are used. And if you do not honour this agreement, you forfeit whatever you agreed on as security.
The general public is aware of security transactions when they purchase a house or a motor vehicle. The asset that you purchase is used as security. For security, companies also use the projected goods or stock that they will manufacture, or in the case of a mining company the minerals that will be mined are used as security. Countries, for example, also use their expected revenue as security to secure loans. That is why the first thing to be paid from our country’s budget is the service cost and interest of our debt.
In financial markets there is buying, investing and selling of different types of financial instruments. These services are offered by financial institutions and individuals and therefore must be regulated.
This Act aims to increase confidence in the South African financial markets by requiring that securities services be provided in a fair, efficient and transparent manner; to contribute to the maintenance of a stable financial market environment; to promote the protection of regulated persons and clients; to reduce systematic risk and to promote the international competitiveness of securities services in the Republic.
Therefore, organisations or individuals that offer these services will be regulated according to the rules as spelt out in this Bill, giving guidelines to the buyer and the seller.
The Bill before us consolidates, amends, repeals and also corrects and improves certain Acts relating to investments. The Acts that will be affected are: The Stock Exchanges Control Act, the Financial Markets Control Act, the Custody and Administration of Securities Act, the Insider Trading Act, the Financial Services Board Act, the Companies Act and the Insolvency Act.
New features in this Bill create the possibility for emergence of separate institutions dealing with different functions, for example trading clearing houses and warehousing. It also consolidates and tightens up on insider trading. Historically, little effective legislation existed and insiders enriched themselves at the expense of the public.
This Bill provides for a modernisation and a more effective securities trading environment. National Treasury has supported proposals for South Africa to emerge as a securities trading centre, serving the African market as well as the South African market.
It will bring the regulation and supervision of all aspects of South African financial markets in line with international development and regulatory standards. South African has been a member of the International Organisation of Securities Commissions since 1992 and therefore must abide by their objectives and principles regarding securities regulations, which are internationally regarded as containing the minimum standards of a law regulating securities services.
Our financial markets must be regulated. South Africa has been praised for the efficient running of its financial markets. Compared to other emerging markets, we achieved an impressive phase of vast financial market improvements. Among 22 of the world’s emerging markets, a London-based international rating agency placed South Africa in seventh place. South Africa was the only African market included in the world’s top 24.
In drafting this Bill a broad consultative process was followed, and none of the institutions and persons consulted opposed the Bill.
Finally, I am sure that I can speak on behalf of the committee to express our appreciation to the members of the National Treasury and Sars who have this enormous volume of work on taxation laws that they produce year after year. I want to appeal to the Minister to closely watch for burnout and fatigued staff members and to introduce a burnout leave system. We must look after such dedicated staff to ensure that the good work continues. The ANC supports the Bill. Thank you. [Applause.]
Dr P J RABIE: Madam Deputy Chair, hon Minister and hon members, the Securities Services Bill is a very technical Bill and a lengthy piece of legislation that aims at consolidating the Stock Exchanges Control Act of 1985, the Financial Markets Control Act of 1989, the Custody and Administration of Securities Act of 1992 and the Insider Trading Act of
- What is significant is that the amended Act adds a significant number of new provisions to the Bill.
The Bill also amends section 91A of the Companies Act, 1973, section 1 of the Financial Services Board Act, 1990 and section 35A of the Insolvency Act of 1936.
This Bill was drafted based upon principles set out by the International Organisation of Securities Commissions, IOSCO, the Financial System Stability Assessment Programme of the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund. This Bill relates directly to the Johannesburg Stock Exchange, the only licenced stock exchange in South Africa and, in particular, to stockbrokers. On page 59 of the Bill, a number of significant empirical statistics are mentioned.
In March 2003, 566 individuals were members of the SA Institute of Stockbrokers, practising in 66 member firms of the Johannesburg Stock Exchange. The number of companies with equity shares listed on the Johannesburg Stock Exchange was 463, in March 2003. The average number of trades per day, in March 2003, was 14 266. Market capitalisation of all securities listed on the Johannesburg Stock Exchange amounted to R1 461 billion, on 28 February 2003, ranking the Johannesburg Stock Exchange as the 17th largest stock exchange.
The Bill also relates to derivative instruments, namely the Financial Derivatives Division and the Agricultural Products Derivatives Division. The Bill also regulates the Board Exchange of South Africa, which is the only licensed financial exchange listing debt securities in Africa.
South Africa is becoming one of the most sought-after emerging markets, as the rand has retained remarkable currency strength against the currencies of our major trading partners in the past fiscal year.
Suid-Afrika kan slegs sy posisie as ‘n gesogte beleggingsbestemming behou indien daar ‘n deursigtige, regverdige stelsel van wette bestaan wat beleggers se belange beskerm en wat gemeet kan word aan internasionale standaarde. Die DA is van mening dat hierdie wetsontwerp sistemiese risiko rakende finansiële instrumente sal verminder, binnehandel rakende koop en verkoop van aandele sal ontmoedig en ‘n kultuur van sakevertroue op die Johannesburgse Aandelebeurs sal aanmoedig. Dit kan vermeld word dat daar met ‘n breë spektrum van belanghebbende finansiële instellings geskakel is rakende die gegewe wetsontwerp en dat die Finansiële Diensteraad dié wetsontwerp vir kommentaardoeleindes op hul webtuiste vir ‘n geruime tyd al vertoon het.
Die DA ondersteun die wetsontwerp. Die waarde van dié wet is dat die prosedure waarvolgens transaksies rakende sekuriteite vir handel duidelik volgens internasionaal voorgeskrewe standaarde omskryf word. Hierdie wetsontwerp se sterk punt is dat binnehandel as verskynsel deeglik omskryf word en dat persone wat oor inligting beskik, tot voor- of nadeel van aandeelhouers, vervolg kan word.
‘n Verdere betekenisvolle veranderlike rakende die wetsontwerp is dat die wetsontwerp geen finansiële gevolge vir die fiskus inhou nie. Voorsitter, ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[South Africa will only be able to maintain its position as a sought-after investment destination if there is a transparent, fair system of laws that protects the interests of investors and that complies with international standards. The DA is of the opinion that this Bill will reduce systemic risk with regard to financial instruments, discourage insider trading regarding the buying and selling of shares and promote a culture of business confidence in the Johannesburg Stock Exchange. It is worth mentioning that consultation concerning this Bill has taken place across a broad spectrum of financial institutions and that the Financial Services Board has posted this Bill on its website for comment for a considerable period of time.
The DA supports this Bill. The value of this legislation is that the procedure regarding transactions relating to securities for trade is clearly defined in accordance with internationally prescribed standards. This Bill’s strength lies in the fact that insider trading as a phenomenon is clearly defined and that persons in possession of information, to the advantage or disadvantage of shareholders, can be prosecuted.
A further meaningful variable regarding the Bill is that the Bill has no financial consequences for the fiscus. Chairperson, I thank you.]
Mr T E VEZI: Madam Chair, this Bill seeks to consolidate the various Acts mentioned under the scope of the Bill. Apart from correcting and improving the repealed Acts, the Bill seeks to add a significant number of new provisions to those Acts. Some of the new provisions relate to previously unregulated matters. This is to bring the regulation and supervision of all aspects of the South African financial markets in line with international developments and regulatory standards.
The approach proposed is that off-market transactions in listed securities be allowed between financial institutions, subject to reporting requirements to the registrar and the exchange on which the securities are listed. The purpose of the relevant clauses of the Bill is to give the Financial Services Board more effective and expeditious enforcement.
A person, and not only an association of persons, as is currently the case, may apply for an exchange licence. The same applies to a central securities depository licence and a clearing house licence. The alternative approach that has been adopted is that all secondary markets should be regarded as exchanges, all of which are subject to the same basic requirements. Market or price manipulation, as described in the Bill, and making false, misleading or deceptive statements, promises and forecasts, in respect of listed securities and public companies, fall under the Director of Market Abuse.
As the Bill seeks to consolidate the repealed Acts, it is expected that the majority of the provisions of the Bill embrace the subject matter of the repealed Acts.
The IFP supports the Bill.
Mr Y WANG: Thank you, Madam Chair, hon Minister, hon members and, indeed, those who are watching TV now. [Laughter.]
An HON MEMBER: Will they spot you?
Mr Y WANG: Yes, they must have spotted me by now. [Laughter.] The ID supports this Bill, because the consolidation of this legislation from bits and pieces into one piece of legislation is consumer friendly and is good for the public.
As a member of the Y generation, I would like us to appeal to the Cabinet and to hon members that we would like to see more electronic legislation- related Bills and a move towards e-government.
I fully support the Bill and I hope this hon member will remember my appeal. Thank you.
Mr K D S DURR: Chairperson, this Bill is a confidence builder in our financial markets and to our securities services providers. When it comes to markets, confidence is a vital ingredient. People worldwide have confidence in structures that they recognise and understand.
This modernisation and streamlining of the four pieces of legislation, as well as the updating thereof and the creating of consistency, brings us in line with the best practice in the world. The legislation reduces systemic risk, increases international competitiveness and reduces risk.
Of course, when one reduces risk, one reduces the cost of trading, and when you reduce the cost of trading you stimulate business; when you stimulate investment, you create jobs, and when you create jobs, the ACDP will always support the measure.
Our congratulations to the Minister, the department and the over 80 different institutions that have an interest in the legislation, and which were consulted. This has indeed been an example of taking government to the people. We support the measure. I thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mr W D SPIES: Hon Chairperson, the trading of shares in companies is one of the most fascinating features of any free market. The way in which a perfect market rewards performance, on the one hand, and punishes failure, on the other, has formed the basis for all classical economic theories in the past.
The markets are, however, not always accurate in establishing the true state of affairs in a company, and some of the worst corporate failures in history, such as Enron, in the United States, and even Saambou Bank, locally, have come as a total surprise to most individual shareholders. It is therefore crucial that investors in shares should be put in as close to an equal position as possible as those people who know the companies best.
The challenge always is to limit regulation of markets to the bare minimum necessary to force imperfect markets towards perfection. It is doubted whether it will ever be possible to ensure that directors or other so- called insiders do not trade their personal shares without consideration of their superior knowledge of the company in question. Any effort, however, to limit and punish insider trading should be applauded. We therefore support the Bill. Thank you. [Time expired.]
Mr M T LIKOTSI: Chairperson, this Bill is aimed at the consolidation of affected, outdated Acts and their repeal, such as the Stock Exchanges Control Act of 1985 and other related Acts.
Legislation is promulgated to protect citizens of our country from all forms of abuse.
The Financial Markets Advisory Board was established by section 3 of the Financial Markets Control Act. This Act was repealed by section 117 but still exists to date. This abnormality will be addressed by the introduction of this Securities Services Bill.
Our country is still in a developmental phase. The first decade of our democracy was mostly used to scrutinise past laws and establish new policies and laws suited to all the citizens of our country. We are living in a global village and our membership of recognised international organisations, such as the International Organisation of Securities Commissions, will pay dividends for our fiscal discipline. I thank you.
Miss S RAJBALLY: Chair, the Securities Services Bill consolidates a number of Bills and in addition provides for a number of new provisions with regard to these sectors.
In today’s times when we talk about the JSE, many people prick up their ears and there is concern about investments. A huge instrument of income and investment, the JSE is the only licensed stock exchange in South Africa and it shows that South Africa is a competitor in the global market.
The MF supports the Bill aimed at attaining a stable financial market environment. This will lead to the establishment of South Africa’s securities services as an international competitor. This Bill is applicable to the necessary parties and clearly defines securities services.
The MF notes that the Bill clearly is aimed at preventing the offences related to the prohibitions in clause 4. We further support the establishment of a self-regulatory organisation. It also deals with the functions of a number of other bodies and the new provisions appear to be well established.
The MF seeks a stronger South African market and to promote South Africa as a strong global competitor. The MF supports the Securities Services Bill. Thank you, Chair.
Mr M JOHNSON: Chairperson, hon Minister, from the outset our challenge is that of demystifying this very important piece of legislation to our economy. In introducing this Bill, allow me to go back 49 years to when the Freedom Charter declared:
The people shall share in the country’s wealth; all other industry and
trade shall be controlled to assist the wellbeing of the people.
The Freedom Charter is further enhanced by the Reconstruction and Development Programme that states, among other things, that it seeks to meet the basic needs of our people via sustainable economic growth.
The latest BEE Charter and the subsequent legislation are some of the milestones that take us forward to a transformed society that is nonracial, nonsexist and democratic through a deracialised economy. Guided by the Nedlac Financial Services Summit agreements, the industry initiated a Financial Services Charter, which further includes a need to unlock and enhance domestic and international commerce through a transformed sector that is transparent and reflective of the demographics of our society.
Lastly, the Financial Services Charter commits itself and the industry to job creation and access to financial services for the poor. The objects of the Bill above state that it seeks to create securities services that are transparent and aligned to the demands and challenges of the transformation of our society, especially in the economic sphere that still remains the domain of white business. Our experiences of BEE listings continue to be a worrying factor in this regard. As we speak, these account for a mere 3% of the total listed stocks on the JSE securities exchange.
The opportunities for job creation and poverty eradication from these financial services, especially guided by the charter, are the following: for those of our young people who graduate from colleges, it offers them training and learnership programmes. The charter also purports to advance a programme that looks at a 50% procurement service to be in the hands of BEE entities by the year 2008. The charter also advances a programme of mentorship and, lastly, it advances gender equity in our society, especially in our economic sphere.
The ANC believes that via these opportunities a new graduate will find experience opportunities and that the inexperienced will be monitored. Our BEE will be equitably empowered and our society will be better represented by a financial service that balances gender participation in its makeup.
We trust that, mystified as it was, this Bill is now demystified, and we are now able to relate to it, especially in relation to job creation and poverty eradication.
The ANC supports this Bill. I thank you.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. Let me express appreciation to all the parties for supporting the Bill. I would like to draw the attention of the hon Rajbally to the fact that the JSE is not the only registered exchange; there is also the Bond Exchange and AltX, each of which will define its own rules. It is important to recognise that all of these will be dealt with and covered by the Bill before the House.
The Bill, as we know, has long been in gestation and during the period that the Bill was being discussed, there have been a series of very important admissions. One of these was by quite a senior stockbroker, about the fact that 10 years ago virtually every trade was done on an insider basis. The other one was that as much as there was trade between large institutions in South Africa, because of the concentration of wealth, they had been off- market trades. Nobody knew who actually owned the scrip and the result has been very extensive abuse of the system.
Also, there is a case at the moment in Pietermaritzburg that reflects just how abusive some players in the market can be. One hopes that a Bill like this will be able to deal with those kinds of issues to protect small investors who also include the holders of pension funds, namely workers who invest pension funds in institutions. If there are no rules to cover market conduct, then we will see the kinds of abuses that Gary Porritt is accused of in Pietermaritzburg at the moment.
When the hon Joemat asks about the ANC members, we should firstly recognise that 70% of the electorate voted for the ANC and that is a big spectrum of South Africa. But, very importantly, nobody is going to remain poor permanently, but also, between the very rich and the very poor are many South Africans whose pensions depend on the regulation of market conduct, which is what legislation like this is about. We cannot leave the markets to regulate themselves. We need good legislation and we need to ensure that the rules are complied with and we need to ensure that small investors and consumers, ultimately, are protected.
In conclusion, however, I wish to express our sincere appreciation for the support and I trust that the other House will deal with it quite speedily. Thank you very much.
Debate concluded.
Bill read a second time.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON CORRECTIONAL SERVICES - VISIT TO BRANDVLEI YOUTH CENTRE AND DRAKENSTEIN JUVENILE DETENTION CENTRE
Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, indeed, it is an honour to participate in this debate. Let me make it very clear from the outset that no child belongs in jail. The Freedom Charter says:
All shall be equal before the law. Imprisonment shall be only for serious crimes against the people, and shall aim at re-education, not vengeance.
Laat ek my toespraak begin deur te sê dat apartheid hierdie land onherstelbare skade aangedoen het. As enigiemand dit wil sien, moet hy net na ons tronke gaan waar ons kinders en jeugdiges aangehou word.
Kom ons kyk wie hierdie kinders en jeugdiges is. Dit is kinders van Guguletu, Mitchells Plein, Bonteheuwel, Elsiesrivier en Langa. Dit is meestal swart kinders wat oral in ons tronke is. Oral oor die land sal jy hulle daar kry. Daar is nie wit kinders in een van hierdie tronke nie. Ek vra myself die vraag: Is dit net swart kinders wat met die gereg bots? Is dit net swart kinders wat stout is? Is dit net swart kinders wat vir huisbraak, verkragting, moord en dwelmhandel gearresteer word? Waar is die wit kinders? [Tussenwerpsels.]
Die rede waarom daar so baie van ons kinders en jeugdiges daar beland, is die omgewing waarin die kinders hul bevind en waar hulle grootword. Ons is gegooi op plekke waar die resultaat niks anders kon wees as dit waarmee ons vandag sit nie. Kinders so jonk as 10 jaar oud behoort aan tronkbendes, die 28s, die 26s en ander. [Tussenwerpsels.] Waar leer hulle dit? Ons moenie hierdie probleme ligtelik opneem nie. Ons moet die oorsprong van hierdie probleem ken. Apartheid was ’n euwel.
Daar is ook ’n ander rede waarom so baie kinders en jeugdiges in ons tronke sit. Van ons landdroste is baie negatief. Hulle wil nie saamwerk nie. Daar is kinders in die tronk wat nie daar hoort nie. Laat ek ’n voorbeeld gee van een so ’n geval. Verlede maand het ek die Kroonstadse Jeugsentrum besoek waar verhoorafwagtendes aangehou word. Daar het ek ’n sestienjarige swart seun gekry wat al vir 11 dae daar gesit het. Die rede waarom hy daar sit, is omdat hy vermoedelik vyf sjokolades gesteel het.
Ek het hom gevra of daar enige borg was. Sy antwoord was: “Nee, daar is geen borg nie.” Hierdie seun is ’n eerste oortreder. Hy was nooit tevore in die tronk nie en hy sit nog altyd daar. Is dit reg dat ons dit aan die kinders doen? Van ons landdroste moet net verander en saamwerk.
Nege-en-negentig persent van hierdie kinders is daar vir ekonomiese oortredings. Wat kan ons doen om dié probleem aan te spreek? Ons as ouers moet meer betrokke raak in die lewe van ons kinders. Kom ons bestee meer tyd met hulle en verbeter die lewensomstandighede waarin ons mense hulself bevind. Kom ons kyk na die begroting van die departement. Is dit nie nodig dat ons meer geld moet bewillig om verbeterings aan te bring nie? Die betrokkenheid van ons gemeenskapsorganisasies en kerkgenootskappe is ook baie belangrik.
Ons Minister en departement het oor die afgelope maande regtig aandag gegee aan sommige van dié probleme. Een van ons grootste probleme is oorbevolking in al ons sentrums landwyd. Ek is oortuig dat die Minister baie ernstig is om oplossings te vind vir dié probleme. Daar is wel voorstelle wat ek graag wil maak sodat die Minister daarna kan kyk. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Let me begin my speech by saying that apartheid has inflicted irreparable damage on this country. Anybody who wants to see this, can merely to go to our prisons where our children and juveniles are being held.
Let us see who these children and juveniles are. They are children from Guguletu, Mitchells Plain, Bonteheuwel, Elsies River and Langa. It is mostly black children who are in our prisons everywhere. All over the country you will find them there. There are no white children in any of these prisons. I ask myself: Is it only black children who fall foul of the law? Is it only black children who are naughty? Is it only black children who are being arrested for burglary, rape, murder and drug trafficking? Where are the white children? [Interjections.]
The reason so many of our children and juveniles end up there, is the environment in which they find themselves and in which they grow up. We were dumped in places where the result could only be what we are facing today. Children as young as 10 years old belong to prison gangs like the 28s, the 26s, and others. [Interjections.] Where do they learn this? We should not take these problems lightly. We must acknowledge the origin of this problem. Apartheid was an evil.
There is also another reason so many children and juveniles are languishing in our prisons. Some of our magistrates are very negative. They don’t want to co-operate. There are children in jail who do not belong there. Let me cite one example of such a case. Last month I visited the Kroonstad Juvenile Detention Centre where awaiting-trial prisoners are held. There I found a 16-year-old black boy who had been kept there for 11 days. The reason he is being held there, is that he is believed to have stolen five chocolates.
I asked him whether there was any bail. His reply was: “No, there isn’t any bail.” This boy is a first-time offender. He had never been to prison before, but he is still languishing there. Is it right that we should do this to the children? Some of our magistrates just need to change and begin to co-operate.
Ninety-nine percent of these children are detained for economic reasons. What can we do to address this problem? We as parents must become more involved in our children’s lives. Let us spend more time with them and improve the living conditions in which our people find themselves. Let us look at the department’s budget. Is it not necessary that we should allocate more money to bring about improvements? The involvement of our community organisations and churches is also very important.
Our Minister and the department have over the past months paid a lot of attention to some of these problems. One of the greatest problems is overcrowding in all our centres all over the country. I am convinced that the Minister is very serious about finding solutions to these problems. However, there are some proposals I would like to submit to the Minister for consideration.]
Minister, we must look at the responsibility to have additional youth correctional centres to ensure that all children who are sentenced to imprisonment are catered for in institutions that are developed to meet their specific needs.
Traditional prisons cannot facilitate the rehabilitation of our children. No child should be sentenced to imprisonment in a prison that does not have adequate infrastructure, including sufficient educational, recreational and development programmes. Solutions to the problem of overcrowding in prisons should be prioritised, as it affects our children.
We as a committee would like to give the department 12 months to address this problem that I have raised today. We will certainly follow up the progress on this report.
Laat ek afsluit met ’n beroep op die wrede, genadelose dwelmbase, bendeleiers en sindikaatleiers wat ons kinders gebruik om hul vuilwerk te doen. Kom ek vra hulle baie beleefd of hul weet wat hul aan ons kinders doen. Ons kinders is die toekoms van hierdie land. Sonder hulle het ons land nie ’n toekoms nie.
Ek hoor van hierdie agb lede aan my linkerkant het nou en dan iets om te sê. [Tussenwerpsels.] As hulle geweet het wat in ons gevangenisse plaasvind, sou hulle nooit sulke opmerkings gemaak het nie. Gister was ek by Lindelani, ’n plek van veiligheid. Tienjarige kinders word aangehou vir diefstal. Dit is baie emosioneel om hierdie kinders daar te sien.
Vra jy hierdie kinders wat hulle gedoen het, dan sê hulle: “Oom, ek het gesteel omdat ek honger was”; “Ek het gesteel omdat ek ’n rugbybal wou hê”; “Oom, ek het gesteel omdat ek gesien het dat my buurman se kind iets het”. As julle geweet het wat in die gevangenisse plaasvind, sou julle nooit só gepraat het en ’n grap gemaak het van dit wat vir ons ernstig is nie. [Tussenwerpsels.]
Dit is baie emosioneel om ons kinders … [Tussenwerpsel.]… want júlle kinders sit nie daar nie. Daarom kan jy so praat. Ons huil in ons harte omdat ons kinders gebruik word. Ons kinders het nie ’n toekoms nie as gevolg van julle. Apartheid het hierdie ding veroorsaak. [Tussenwerpsels.] Daarom is julle nie bekommerd oor wat ons daar binne sien nie. [Tussenwerpsels.]
Jy moet gaan kyk wat gaan daar aan, dan sal jy beter kan weet dat jy een van die mense was wat gesorg het dat ’n plek soos Mitchells Plein ontstaan het. [Tussenwerpsels.] Jy was een van die mense wat gesorg het dat Belhar daar is. [Tussenwerpsels.] Jy was een van die mense wat gesorg het dat Elsiesrivier daar is. [Tussenwerpsels.] Jy was een van die mense wat gesorg het dat Guguletu daar is. [Tussenwerpsels.]
Ons kinders sit in die tronk. Jy is nie bekommerd daaroor nie. Dit is die vuilwerk wat apartheid aan ons kinders gedoen het. [Tussenwerpsels.] Ons kan nooit ophou om te praat oor hierdie ding … [Tussenwerpsels.] Ons moet hierdie ding stop. Ons huil in ons harte vir ons kinders. Baie dankie. [Tyd verstreke.] [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Let me conclude with an appeal to the cruel, ruthless drug lords, gang leaders and syndicate bosses who use our children to do their dirty work. Let me ask them very politely if they know what they are doing to our children. Our children are the future of this country. Without them our country has no future.
I notice that some of these hon members to my left have something to say now and then. [Interjections.] If they knew what was going on in our prisons they would never pass such comments. Yesterday I was at Lindelani, a place of safety. Ten-year-old children are held there for theft. It is a very emotional experience to see these children there.
If you ask these children what they have done, they say: “Sir, I stole because I was hungry”; ``I stole because I wanted a rugby ball’’; “Sir, I stole because I saw my neighbour’s child had something”. If you knew what was going on in the prisons, you would never speak like this or make a joke of something that is very serious to us. [Interjections.]
It is a very emotional experience to see our children … [Interjections.] … because your children are not languishing there. That is why you can talk like that. We cry in our hearts because our children are being used. Our children do not have a future because of you. Apartheid has caused this thing. [Interjections.] That is why you are not worried about what we see in there. [Interjections.]
You must go and look at what is going on there, then you will have a better understanding that you were one of the people who contributed to the emergence of a place like Mitchells Plein. [Interjections.] You were one of the people who contributed to the creation of Belhar. [Interjections.] You were one of the people who contributed to the emergence of Elsies River. [Interjections.] You were one of the people who contributed to the creation of Guguletu. [Interjections.]
Our children are languishing in jail. You are not worried about that. That is the filthy effect apartheid had on our children. [Interjections.] We can never stop talking about this thing … [Interjections.] We must stop this thing. We cry in our hearts for our children. Thank you very much. [Time expired.] [Applause.]]
Mr C M MORKEL: Madam Chair, Minister, colleagues, ladies and gentlemen, I do not want to react to someone else’s speech. I think that some of the issues that the previous speaker has raised are correct, but there is a whole range of other issues that he neglected to cover. We have been in this new South Africa for 10 years. How many of the challenges that we face in our prisons, do have their roots in the past 10 years and beyond?
We need to ask ourselves, are those challenges being dealt with? Is our democracy able to eradicate what has been happening in the last 10 years? One of them is that the Department of Correctional Services, as we said in the debate on the Budget Vote, faces the challenge of not having enough resources. Not enough resources are allocated to the department, and we can see that by the facilities at both the Brandvlei Youth Centre and the Drankenstein Juvenile Detention Centre.
I will highlight some of the issues, but I don’t want to read the reports that many of you would have seen in the ATC on 15 September. We went there with specific questions, and I would just like to read them to you. What is the capacity of the centres, and how many juveniles are currently incarcerated there? How many of the juvenile offenders are there, sentenced and not sentenced? What educational facilities and training are provided for these juveniles? What general services are currently provided which are lacking? What measures are in place to ensure the successful reintegration of offenders into society?
We sought answers to those questions. At Brandvlei we found that there are juveniles who are incarcerated there for between two and eight years. Many of them are between the ages of 14 and 20 years. The prison is overcrowded by 150%, Minister. There are 503 offenders accommodated in a facility that can only accommodate 288, as it was built for that purpose in 1996. We therefore recommend that if the existing structure on-site there is renovated, it can accommodate an additional 600 offenders.
These are the challenges that we can address. With regard to the original staff complement for the 288 offenders that the facility was to accommodate when built, there are only 73 staff members there. That was for the 288 inmates; now they have 503, and it is obviously insufficient. There is a shortage of professional staff, and in areas of adult education, in particular, there are shortages there. Offenders serving sentences of less than one year do not have access to formal education, so we are going to have the repeat offenders coming back.
Although there are facilities being provided there by outside institutions like UCT and Kfm - providing a radio station – and also courses in welding, woodwork, pottery and so on, they are insufficient to get these qualifications formerly recognised outside. These youngsters are not going to get jobs out there, and they will come back. Therefore we ask that you address that.
We also saw that there was an absence of a kitchen facility. They have to transport the food from Medium A section to that facility. These are things that the prison was built for in 1996. The facilities are shared with adult prisoners, contrary to your department’s policy. This applies to the visitor facilities in particular. The department must therefore work with Public Works to eradicate some of these issues.
At Drakenstein with 658 male prisoners, there are 331 in the maximum security facility of the centre. Of the 33 under 18s, 23 are in the medium section, whilst 10 are in the maximum. It is the only facility in the area for juveniles who need to be held in a maximum prison. Adult prisoners maturing at juvenile facilities are also a problem evident here; that is, those who turn 21 whilst they are in the juvenile facility.
The department needs to indicate how it will deal with this category of prisoners after they have turned 21, because when they graduate to the adult facilities, they are likely to become more hardened prisoners. Here the department must also deal with the speedier filling of posts and the competitiveness of salaries, especially for professional staff, who leave the department to find employment elsewhere, especially the nurses and psychologists.
Communication surrounding the issue of weekend overtime and the establishment of a seven-day workweek is also a problem, as it is elsewhere. The provision and formal recognition of education is a problem here too. There are problems with the dispensing of antiretrovirals here as well and, obviously, it is something that needs to be communicated to the Health Department, especially to their local facilities.
Challenges with regard to the rehabilitation and integration of offenders must be dealt with urgently by the department, and in this regard we ask that you, in particular, work with the other departments in the justice cluster to deal with the overcrowding in these facilities, because it is in overcrowding that there are shortages in the facilities. We do not always disagree in the portfolio committee, as you know, Minister. There are many things that we agree on.
There are common challenges. The DA wants to make its contribution, but we understand the challenges that you face. We cannot simply blame the period before the 10 years of democracy. There are challenges that we know you are trying to deal with; they are resource challenges, and we will make our contribution in lobbying for more funds for you.[Applause.]
Mrs S A SEATON: Madam Chair, hon members, unfortunately I was unable to participate in the actual visit to Drakenstein and Brandvlei due to commitments in the Whippery. I actually apologised to the committee for not having been able to participate, and I thank Nkosi Biyela for having attended where he could over the past month. The portfolio committee has been extremely active over the past few weeks. I must say I am pleased to see that at last this committee has really come to grips with the many challenges of the department, the concerns of the public, and the wellbeing of both the departmental officials and the incarcerated.
I commend the chairperson and all members of the portfolio committee on the very comprehensive report. What really does concern me, is that despite our transformation and modernisation over the past decade, and all the good intentions of all parties concerned, we continue to see an ever-increasing prison population, an increase in overcrowding of the institutions and, of most concern to me, an ever-increasing number of young offenders incarcerated under these appalling conditions with totally inadequate ablution facilities, few resources and very few staff.
To top all this is the problem that, due to general overcrowding, many adults, as we’ve heard, are being incarcerated in the same institutions as juveniles, because of the lack of other facilities, notwithstanding the decision taken by this Parliament in the early 90s that no juvenile may be incarcerated along with adults. Unfortunately that legislation may never have been passed, because we have never implemented it. Due to a lack of resources and facilities it does not look like it is about to be implemented for some time.
Mr Bloem has actually made the comment that no child should be in prison. I fully support that. It is a privilege to be on the portfolio committee and, believe it not, a privilege to have to work in those prisons. It is only when you work in those prisons with prisoners that you actually understand the real implications of young people being in prison.
It is clear from the report that there are still many obstacles to overcome in order to promote genuine rehabilitation, and to cut down on the recidivism in South Africa. We clearly have to make it possible, if not compulsory, for all juveniles, even those serving a period of under one year, to have formal education, which is compulsory. This, of course, means that we have to ensure that we have adequate facilities, qualified persons, and really, when we talk about one teacher training or teaching 113 offenders in Drakenstein, that is an impossible situation.
If we want to combat crime we have to do everything possible to motivate all offenders, especially juveniles, to change their ways. This cannot be achieved if they are individually left idle in overcrowded facilities, with nothing to do, other than to learn from their more corrupt peers how to develop their criminal skills.
There is no doubt that young people who are kept actively involved in institutions such as Drakenstein, dealing with things that they are dealing with in the agricultural and productive field, become far more motivated and are far more prone to be successful than those who are in other institutions. I am pleased to see the Drakenstein prisons continuing to develop and expand the agricultural production facilities. I sincerely hope that other institutions are going to go the same way, and that we build new institutions along those lines, because we really do need to make a change for our young people.
We again urge the courts to look at alternative sentencing, and not to put young people into prisons. We really cannot afford to have our young people in such institutions, and we need to do something about it, each and every one of us. The IFP accepts and supports the report. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr S MAHOTE: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, let me echo what my chairperson has said. I am honoured to participate in this debate which is both sensitive and, given our experiences as parents, also disturbing in nature.
As we all know, the family unit is recognised as the bedrock of any healthy and prosperous nation. South African history and circumstances are steeped in tragic tales of children having to grow up in families without mothers or even without both parents. If one factors in social phenomena such as the legacy of apartheid, poverty, the migrant labour system and hardship in general, one inevitably arrives at daunting long-term challenges. And the issue of youths and juveniles in correctional and detention centres represents one such daunting challenge.
At the same time one does not ignore the fact that those who engage in criminal acts do not originate only from dysfunctional families. To this end, the categories of offenders who come from affluent families attest to this. However, a sober analysis of the composition of South Africa’s youth offender population drives home the reality that the vast majority of juvenile offenders come from communities and facilities plagued by poverty, hunger, absent figures of authority and care, distorted value systems and general hardship - some of the very factors directly associated with dysfunctional families and dysfunctional communities.
Xa ikomiti ejongene necandelo leenkonzo zoluleko ibityelele amaziko ogcino- luleko-lutsha eBrandvlei Youth Centre naseDrakenstein Medium B Detention Centre, ngaphandle kokubuza imibuzo, eyona ngxaki ibigqamile yingxinano ebuhlungu kula maziko. Inyaniso yeyokuba iziko ngalinye lithwaliswa umthwalo wezaphuli-mthetho ezinokwanela amaziko amabini. Ngaphezulu, ukunqongophala kweenkonzo nenkqubo yeenkonzo zoqeqesho kwenza ukuba le meko ibe mandundu. Zonke ezi zinto zezinye zeenyaniso eziyintlonze nje kumfanekiso wemeko yala maziko.
Kubaphuli-mthetho baseBrandvlei, sisiqingatha nje esithatha inxaxheba kwiinqubo zemfundiso. EDrakenstein sisinye esithathwini. Kunzima kakhulu kwezoqeqesho ngenxa yale ngxinano. (Translation of Xhosa of paragraphs follows.)
[When the Portfolio Committee on Correctional Services visited the youth rehabilitation centres at the Brandvlei Youth Centre and the Drakenstein Medium B Detention Centre, without asking we could identify the main problem as being overcrowding. The truth of the matter is that each centre accommodates the number that is supposed to be taken by two centres. Moreover, the lack of services and a training programme makes these circumstances more difficult. All of these facts reflect the truth of what is happening.
For Brandvlei prisoners there is a small percentage that takes part in educational programmes. At Drakenstein it is only one third that participate. Training is very difficult because of overcrowding.]
Another cause for concern is the shortage of medical and social work personnel. This situation seriously compromises the physical and mental health of these young offenders. We are all conscious of the extent to which communicable diseases such as TB and HIV/Aids thrive in unhygienic social conditions and more so in overcrowded prisons. Also, the scourge of gang culture and drugs demands sufficient person power to turn this tide.
Furthermore, we believe that the shortages and challenges outlined above are certainly not conducive to the process of rehabilitation. As the ANC, we, however, believe that everything is not doom and gloom. In relation to detention of children, the South African Constitution of 1996 provides the following rights for children: not to be detained, except as a last resort; if detained, only to be detained for the shortest period of time; to be kept separate from detained persons over the age of 18 years; and, to be treated in a manner and kept in conditions that take account of their age.
What is most encouraging is that the Department of Correctional Services has drafted a White Paper on correctional services that will replace the 1994 one, and it has already been approved by Cabinet. This draft White Paper on Corrections arises out of a need for a long-term strategic policy and operational framework that recognises corrections as a societal responsibility. It also flows from the need for the Department of Correctional Services to gear all its activities to serving a rehabilitation mission that ensures true delivery of appropriate programmes without compromising security; and that ensures that the people who leave the correctional centres have appropriate attitudes and competencies that enable them to successfully integrate back into society as law-abiding and productive citizens.
In respect of youths in detention, the department’s position is unambiguous, as contained in the White Paper. It states that different age groups of children require different service delivery and should, as far as possible, be accommodated separately. It further seeks to align its policies with those of other integrated justice system departments to ensure that appropriate policies are in place for different age categories of children. Where this is not an option, they should be accommodated in secure facilities that are designed for children.
Through the White Paper and as part of its division for youth offenders, the department provides for diversion, alternative sentences and alternative detention centres run by the Department of Social Development. The Department of Education should also be utilised for the correction of such children.
Moreover, and most encouraging, through the White Paper again, the department is aligning itself to the United Nations rule for the protection of juveniles deprived of their liberty. As the ANC, we have no doubt that this development will go a long way towards ensuring that challenges we have alluded to, such as overcrowding, are tackled in an integrated and coherent manner. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, hon Minister, the ACDP has studied the report and supports its contents, and we just wish to highlight certain aspects.
Firstly, we share the view that education and school attendance should be compulsory for all juvenile offenders. It is crucial that offenders receive education and training to enable them to be reintegrated into society once they have served their sentences.
The painful truth, however, is that many juvenile offenders are abused, raped and forced to become involved in criminal and gangster activities and continue with these activities when they leave prison. Imprisonment becomes an initiation into a lifetime of criminal and gangster activities instead of a means of rehabilitation. Instead of receiving a proper education and training, many graduate from the university of crime.
Possibly the saddest part of all is the fact that, as the hon Bloem pointed out, many of these juvenile offenders are serving sentences for property crimes such as theft. These juveniles do not present a danger to society and should not be incarcerated. The Cape Argus printed an editorial from which I would just like to quote. They said:
We are sentencing many young men to a slow and painful death, simply by arresting them for petty crimes and sending them to overcrowded prisons where they fall into the clutches of hardened criminals. There must be a better way.
And there is a better way, hon Minister. The restorative justice approach is the way and this is what the ACDP has advocated for many years. The Child Justice Bill contains innovative restorative justice principles to prevent such youths from being locked away in universities of crime by implementing principles such as diversion.
In the year 2000 I represented our country at a United Nations crime conference where I proudly extolled the virtues of the restorative justice approach. I was very proud of the Child Justice Bill at that stage, then drafted by the SA Law Reform Commission. Sadly, today, some four years later, the Child Justice Bill is yet to be passed by this House. This is unacceptable and I would implore the hon Minister to discuss this issue with the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development, and to urgently attend to the finalisation of the Child Justice Bill. I thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Voorsitter, ek het nou geluister na wat die agb Bloem hier te sê gehad het en my advies aan die agb lid is dat hy vir hom ʼn ander bril moet kry, vanweë die feit dat dié agb lid deur daardie bril net wit en swart sien. Ek wil vir u sê die agb lid se optrede hier vanmiddag is ʼn tipiese optrede van die ANC, in die sin dat die oomblik as hy nie ʼn probleem of ʼn krisis kan hanteer nie, hy dit op apartheid blameer.
Ek wil graag by agb lede weet hoe lank nog hulle apartheid die skuld wil gee vir alles. [Tussenwerpsels.] Ek wil vir die agb lid sê armoede kan nooit ʼn rede of ʼn oorsaak wees vir die pleeg van ʼn misdaad nie. As die agb lid dit dalk nie weet nie, die blankes het ook ʼn armblankevraagstuk beleef in hul geskiedenis. Hulle was arm, hulle was bywoners, maar hulle het hulle nie tot misdaad gewend om te kan oorleef nie.
Nee, Mevrou die Voorsitter, ek wil vir die agb lid sê hy slaan die bal heeltemal mis. Hulle moet begin optree en kundiges aanstel om die probleem te kan hanteer. Die standpunt van die VF Plus is baie duidelik. As ons gaan kyk na jeugmisdaad vandag, dan moet ons ook ʼn bietjie verder gaan kyk – verby daardie bril van die agb lid.
En as ons na die probleem gaan kyk, dan sê die VF Plus die probleem kom in by dissipline. Dit het tyd geword dat ons dit weer ernstig moet oorweeg om lyfstraf terug te bring in ons stelsel. Daarom sê ons dit moet by die skole begin en die agb lid moet mooi luister: as ek praat van skole dan praat ek van blanke en swart skole, dat lyfstraf moet terugkom soontoe, dat ons kinders kan leer wat dissipline is, want dan sal ons jeugmisdaad begin afneem.
Ander aspekte wat ander sprekers hier genoem het is uit die aard van die saak belangrik, maar die VF Plus wil lyfstraf daarby voeg, want daar is baie mense … Die agb lid praat hier van iemand wat ʼn bietjie sjokolade gesteel en toe in die gevangenis beland het. As hy twee of drie “cuts” gekry het, sal hy nie weer sjokolade vat nie. Hy sal nie in die tronk wees nie en dit sal nie op die onkoste van die belastingbetaler wees nie. Ek dank u. [Tyd verstreke.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, I have listened to what the hon Bloem had say here and my advice to the hon member is that he should get another pair of spectacles, as this hon member seems to see only black and white through those spectacles. I want to tell you that the hon member’s behaviour here this afternoon is typical behaviour from the ANC, in the sense that the minute they cannot deal with a problem or a crisis they blame it on apartheid.
I would like to know from hon members how much longer they are going to blame apartheid for everything. [Interjections.] I want to tell the hon member that poverty can never be a reason or a cause for committing a crime. If the hon member was not aware of it, the whites also experienced a poor white problem in their history. They were poor, they were sharecroppers, but they did not resort to crime to survive.
No, Madam Chairperson, I want to tell the hon member that he is missing the mark. They must begin to act and appoint experts to be able to deal with the problem. The position of the FF Plus is very clear. If we look at juvenile crime today, we also have to look a little further – beyond that hon member’s spectacles.
And if we look at the problem, the FF Plus says that the problem arises with discipline. It is time we once again seriously considered reintroducing corporal punishment to our system. For that reason we say that it must start with the schools and the hon member must listen carefully: when I talk about schools I am talking about white and black schools, that corporal punishment must be reintroduced there, so that our children can learn what discipline is, because then our juvenile crime will start to decrease.
Other aspects that other speakers mentioned here are of course important, but the FF Plus wants to add corporal punishment to them, because there are many people… The hon member spoke about someone who stole some chocolate and went to prison. If he had received one or two “cuts”, he would not take chocolate again. He would not be in prison and it would not be at the expense of the taxpayer. I thank you. [Time expired.]
Mr M T LIKOTSI: Deputy Chairperson, firstly, the PAC of Azania wishes to compliment the Portfolio Committee on Correctional Services for submitting its report to the House on its visit to the said areas. Government established these youth and juvenile centres with the good intention of protecting the youth and juveniles from abuse at the various adult Correctional Services facilities.
The PAC is disturbed by the conditions to which these juveniles and youths are exposed at these centres as these conditions may psychologically affect them in their upbringing. Overcrowding and an unhealthy environment lead to mortality at a very young age. It is an open secret today that this generation will not survive for more than 45 years. The conditions found at these centres paint a broader national picture regarding our correctional services. Nationally, there is overcrowding and a lack of facilities befitting human beings in our correctional services. To date, the PAC has received much correspondence from inmates who were incarcerated for politically motivated activities, especially Azanian People’s Liberation Army, Apla, operatives who are still languishing in our prisons. This then makes a mockery of our democracy because people died for us, and others who sacrificed their youth for us are still languishing in our prisons. We demand their immediate release as another measure to curb overcrowding in our prisons, Mr Minister.
The PAC further urges government to stop privatising correctional services through awarding contracts to foreigners. I hereby refer to Group 4 prison next to Grootvlei in the Free State province. That prison does not fully conform to the required standard of the Correctional Services Act in our country. Inmates are subjected to the worst incarceration conditions, and those that apply to be moved nearer to their home base are refused permission without valid reasons. I thank you.
Miss S RAJBALLY: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I also want to associate myself with thanking the Portfolio Committee on Correctional Services for bringing about this debate. Crime is one of the most serious challenges in South Africa, and juvenile delinquency is, sadly, a great contributor to our problem of crime.
The seriousness of the issue may be observed through the reality of our overcrowded prisons and the large number of juveniles residing in such prisons. Regarding prisoners, our aim is not only to restore the balance of society that is disrupted by crime, but also to inculcate the reformation of these offenders into law-abiding citizens through punishment by imprisonment.
In order to prevent them and others from committing crime and through deterrence from engaging in criminal behaviour, government and the community have been working hard to combat crime in South Africa. The MF has also worked hard at promoting a safer South Africa and deterring juveniles from criminal behaviour by incorporating them into the MF youth programmes that facilitate and promote law-abiding behaviour. As is evident from the report, not only is it sad to note the number of juvenile delinquents, but it is also unpleasant to note the harsh conditions of imprisonment that they are forced to live under.
Overcrowding, a lack of facilities, and a lack of professional assistance in the sectors of education and health care, and so other more factors not only contribute to poor living conditions but also minimise the chances for success of efforts to deter such juveniles from criminal behaviour. The reality is that conditions in both Brandvlei Youth Centre and Drakenstein Medium B Juvenile Detention Centre are really bad.
Having looked at the report and the recommendations, the MF calls upon government to treat this issue with great seriousness. We need to roll up our sleeves in order to mediate in a process aimed at correcting these inefficiencies with immediate effect. We would like to mention, though, that renovating these facilities would alleviate the overcrowding situation, but we need to work at stopping crime in our communities with greater earnestness.
The promotion of skills and the education of juveniles are crucial to reformation and bringing these juveniles back into society as great contributors and law-abiding citizens. I couldn’t agree more with the Minister when he says the parents of these juveniles must be totally involved as well in rehabilitating these children. Let’s stamp out crime and give our youth a bright future. Let’s open our hearts and our homes and give these juveniles a chance to live in a better South Africa. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mrs L S CHIKUNGA: Madam Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members, regardless of what your offence is, once you enter the high walls and heavy doors of prison you have entered a world which is unique in every sense; the world that speaks in terms of 26s, 27s and 28s; the world that uses concepts such as “wyfies” and “upping the cool” - indeed, you will be in prison.
Regarding the prison world, medical treatment of its population is guaranteed by the Bill of Rights and details are spelt out in the Correctional Services Act. Primary health care services that are in line with the national Department of Health requirements have to be provided for our prisoners. In most cases, doctors who provide medical care are appointed by the provincial departments of health, and nurses are in the employment of the Department of Correctional Services. These nurses should have primary health care as a qualification.
According to the inspecting judge, in 2003 about 19 000 prisoners’ complaints were about the inadequate provisions of health care in prisons. Key health problems include TB, a common problem in almost all our prisons. Our prisons, which are so overcorwded, favour the easy spread of this disease. The human immunodeficiency virus and Aids are also a serious problem. A large number of our prisoners are sexually active males under the age of 30 years who, even in our communities outside prison, constitute a very high-risk group for contracting HIV and Aids, and prisons are no exception.
Due to the constrained nature of prisons and because they are aggravated by overcrowding, sexual relations may lead to the spread of sexually transmitted infections and HIV and Aids. Imagine two men having to share a single bed every day for 8 to 15 years. That situation is most likely to lead to sexual relationships or homosexuality. The committee have seen victims of prison rape. Sodomy seems to be part of prison life as many men resort to it as a means of survival and a deterrent to further sexual abuse. Both rape and sodomy have a high potential for the spread of STIs and HIV and Aids, and by their very nature they undermine human rights.
In the majority of our prisons there is an acute shortage of professional health care staff. In August 2004 the Portfolio Committee on Correctional Services visited Brandvlei and Drakenstein juvenile prisons. In Drakenstein we saw overcrowding. There was one registered nurse who was a sister, and there was one nursing auxiliary. There were three funded posts for registered nurses, but only one had been filled and two had been vacant since December 2003. The nurse-to-patient ratio was high and there was one doctor who visited prisons every day. There were three confirmed HIV- positive patients. There was one permanent psychologist, and we appreciate that.
There were, of course, many positive things that we saw in this prison. Amongst them was that all three social workers’ posts had been filled. These social workers cater for the needs of juvenile offenders in this prison. Furthermore, there were a number of external service providers who assisted by providing services in a variety of areas including life skills, and arts and craft. Offenders in this prison received gala awards from the former President, Mr Nelson R Mandela and the Duke of Edinburgh in June
- The programmes aim to change the outlook on life and behaviour of offenders.
Brandvlei prison was also overcrowded. The population of 503 was cared for by two social workers, one permanent psychologist, whom we appreciate, and one nurse. The doctor visited the facility once per week and could spend only one hour at the juvenile centre. The most prevalent diseases included TB, HIV and Aids. We saw nine active TB patients as well as three HIV- positive patients. It was pleasing to find that various NGOs and other organisations presented HIV and Aids courses to inmates, and 30 of them had received certificates as peer educators on HIV and Aids.
The main question is: Where to from here? In solving these problems in our prisons, and in order to deliver a better life for all our inmates, we have to reduce our prison population drastically. The Department of Correctional Services cannot do this alone. Only an integrated approach will solve the problem of overcrowding in prisons.
In order to ensure acceptable health care in our prisons, the department has to look seriously at the issue of improving salaries of professional staff such as nurses, social workers and psychologists so as to attract and retain them in our system. The budget issue has to be looked into critically in order to address some of these urgent challenges. In fact, Comrade Minister, it may mean finding more funds if possible.
In conclusion, issues that are raised in this debate are raised because we are a caring society. We believe that our children are our future and that they should be moulded and provided with opportunities that will ensure that one day when they are out of prison they live a better life – normally, they are not supposed to be in prison. The Portfolio Committee on Correctional Services requests this Parliament to endorse this report.
Within the few minutes that I still have left, I just want to raise the issue regarding some members who debated here today. It was surprising for us to see them for the first time when they stood at this podium. They don’t attend meetings, and they don’t know what is happening. They come here to make a noise, and banikeza isithombe okungeyiso. [they are giving a false picture.]
Comrade Chairperson, regarding the IFP members, the last time they attended the meetings of Correctional Services was when the Minister Owayekhona kwakuseyindoda abayithembayo. Uma sekungene omunye uNgqongqoshe asizange siphinde sibabone. [Ubuwelewele.] [who was in the office was the man that they could trust. When another Minister took over we never saw them again. [Interjections.]]
Madam Chairperson, it is not correct for a member to come here and say there were regulations that were never implemented. Thank you, Chairperson. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, let me first of all thank the portfolio committee, very well led by the hon Dennis Bloem…[Laughter.]… for the oversight role that all the members are playing. I really appreciate the fact that this report is tabled in this House. Not many members of this House know what is happening in our correctional centres. Let me make it easy for them: They don’t know what is going on in our prisons.
We call them correctional centres. You might call them prisons. Eventually, you will get used to the language that we are using in the White Paper. The members have contributed quite well today, but I only want to say one thing to hon member Groenewald. One of the things that will be written about you on your grave will be “Defender of Apartheid”. [Laughter.] I will make sure that it is written there. [Laughter.] [Applause.] He is the hon member who defended apartheid until the last drop of blood. [Interjections.]
The other members have contributed quite well. The rational way in which the hon Morkel has looked at this thing clearly says that there is some maturing that has happened in him. It is quite good. I really appreciate that. Hon Seaton is an old hand. She knows Correctional Services. [Applause.]
Let me talk very quickly about juveniles in correctional centres. I am quite aware of the focus of the portfolio committee this year, that is, it is on juveniles in our centres. I quite agree with the members who spoke. Young children and juveniles do not belong in prisons. [Interjections.]
I will take a point of order, and I will eat you up! Try it. [Laughter.] Because you asked a question, and then I was… [Interjections.] I can’t sit on them. You know I have lost some weight now. [Laughter.] I look quite nice and young. I am energetic, and I will eat him up. [Laughter.]
Negotiations are going on within the JCPS cluster. The JCPS cluster is seized with this issue of young people in prisons. We are also seized with the problem of overcrowding within our prisons, and we are trying our best to deal with that. We are also looking at alternatives for young people - diversions for them not to go to prisons, because as you rightly pointed out, Mr Swart, they sometimes become universities of crime. But because of the shortage of space, they are put into prisons, and I don’t like that. It hurts when you see most of these young people in prisons.
We are dealing with that. The reports of the inspecting judge, Judge Fagan, are also assisting us in dealing with that through the justice system. There are delays in the system. We are trying to get rid of those delays so that these young people can do community corrections, and the community can participate in making sure that they are not in prison.
The staff inmates are very bad. But we have groups that consist completely of new recruits. In Zonderwater, we have 461 new recruits. In Kroonstad we have 543 new recruits. I am hoping that once these recruits are out of our system, we will get another group of young recruits, because we need more young people to come and work in Correctional Services. Our motto at Correctional Services is: We serve with pride and humility. That is the motto that we are trying to instil within Correctional Services.
The programmes of rehabilitation at the core of the White Paper are corrections and rehabilitation. As I said when I talked about Gareth James here, the first step in correction is the family. If families do not participate in that code of correction, then we are in trouble, because this is a conveyer-belt situation. We are at the end of the conveyer belt, and they come back again, through the family, into the justice system. Somewhere, somehow families have to play a very strong role. We should act against parents who do not want to assist us in that. We should introduce legislation that will make sure that those parents take responsibility for their children.
We are working on the retention of our professional staff. I do hope that in no time we will have social workers, psychologists, as well as teachers and doctors. We need doctors to work for us within Correctional Services.
Correction is a societal responsibility. All of us have a role to play. It is very true that if we allow crime to be committed, we will have these problems. But if we were playing our role as communities to curb crime, then we wouldn’t have the kinds of problems that we have. So let us all stand up and fight crime. Whether you are a DA or ID member, crime affects all of us.
The last thing I want to say very quickly is that I have taken note of what the portfolio committee chairperson has said regarding 12 months to deal with overcrowding. But another thing that I need to quickly talk about is the issue of gangsters within our correctional centres. We cannot allow gangsters and we cannot glorify them. We can’t allow them to suck young people into that void. We are going to make sure that we crush the gangs in the prisons. [Applause]
That is one thing that I vowed to do. We are going to crush them. There is no doubt about it. [Applause.] I don’t care a damn. I nearly used French. Whether they are 26s, 27s or 23s, the fact is that they don’t belong in those prisons.
We are dealing with the issue of overtime with the unions and we are getting there. We are supposed to have compulsory education in all our centres and we are working very hard. Restorative justice is an issue that we are trying to get through so that they can acknowledge the crime that they have committed. But we also need to work towards making sure that the victims’ families also accept them back into society.
We will also look at the Child Justice Bill. We will make sure that the Justice Minister and I sit and look at that. Regarding political prisoners, we will also have a programme to look at that. I can promise you we are busy dealing with that.
I would like more of our members to go out there and see for themselves the situation within the prisons that we have to deal with. When you see a 19- year-old, and he tells you that he has been sentenced to 162 years, then how do you sleep at night - even knowing that he has committed a crime? But still, 162 years for someone who is 19 years old! Parents have to take responsibility.
If you go to the Drakenstein Prison and you see a 14-year-old, you wonder where the parents are. What were they up to? What responsibility are they taking? [Interjections.] Meneer [Mister] Groenewald, I am talking about parents’ rights across the board, not parents as you define them. These are some of the things that worry me.
But I must also say that the work that has been done by correctional officials all over the country, starting with the Commissioner of Correctional Services and those officials that work in the Zonderwater and Kroonstad Prisons, is work that I think will turn Correctional Services around. I am beginning to be very passionate about Correctional Services. On weekends, instead of going and watching sport, I go to correctional centres, because I want to see what those young people and other people who are there are doing.
Women in prison and the young children that they have in those centres are other issues that worry me, particularly when women are there because of domestic violence in their homes. No children should be born in prisons. These are some of the things that we have to address. I am asking hon members to make time for themselves. Go out there into those cells. I go into those cells, overcrowded as they are, and I talk to those young people. I try and understand what we can do to assist.
I am not soft on crime; not at all. I have zero tolerance for crime. But we have to find ways and means of making sure that these young people do not end up being habitual criminals that come in time and time again. The chairperson has also mentioned the areas of bias when dealing with some of these cases. It is an area that we have to look at.
We serve with pride and humility. Thank you. [Applause.]
Ms E NGALEKA: Chairperson, I move, on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party:
That the report be adopted.
Thank you.
Motion agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF FIRST REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE
ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS - COUNCIL FOR MEDICAL SCHEMES
CONSIDERATION OF SECOND REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON
PUBLIC ACCOUNTS - REGISTRAR FOR MEDICAL SCHEMES
CONSIDERATION OF THIRD REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON
PUBLIC ACCOUNTS - FILM AND PUBLICATION BOARD
CONSIDERATION OF FOURTH REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON
PUBLIC ACCOUNTS - BALA FARMS
CONSIDERATION OF FIFTH REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON
PUBLIC ACCOUNTS - BANK SETA
Mr F BEUKMAN: Chairperson, thank you for the opportunity to introduce the first five Scopa resolutions of the new parliamentary term on behalf of the committee. In terms of Rule 206 of the National Assembly, Scopa must consider the financial statements of all executive organs of state and institutions when those statements are submitted to Parliament, any audit reports issued on those statements, and any reports issued by the Auditor- General on the affairs of any executive organ of state, constitutional institution or other public body. Any other financial statement or report may be referred to this committee. We must then report on any of those financial statements or reports to the Assembly, and that is what we are actually doing this afternoon.
In a normal calendar year, Scopa will receive in the region of about 200 reports. To enable Scopa to deal with the reports effectively, we have categorised them in terms of a set of criteria. A category A will entail a hearing, for instance, as the one we had today on Public Works. Category B will entail further interaction with the department, and C will mean that we will adopt a resolution without taking further action.
The five reports to be adopted this afternoon in the House are in categories B and C. Scopa envisages that in future we as a committee will also utilise this opportunity in the House to discuss a report, especially those dealing with category A departments. Category A departments are those with claims of qualified audit reports. Hopefully, we could also involve portfolio committees with regard to those discussions.
Coming to the reports, the first one is from the Council for Medical Schemes. We have studied the report. Scopa commended the management of the council for the unqualified audit opinion expressed by the Auditor-General, and trust that future audit opinion shall be equally unqualified. We are of the view that no further interaction with the Council for Medical Schemes is necessary.
The second report deals with the Registrar for Medical Schemes. It is also an unqualified report. Scopa is of the view that no further interaction with the accounting authority of the Registrar for Medical Schemes is necessary for the financial year under review.
The third report deals with the Film and Publication Board. It is also an unqualified audit opinion expressed by the Auditor-General. We, as a committee, trust that future audit opinion shall be equally unqualified. We are of the view that no further interaction with the accounting authority of the Film and Publication Board is necessary.
The fourth report deals with a so-called classified schedule 3 institution and national government business enterprise, Bala Farms. Bala Farms is really part of one of the former homeland administrations that has been in the process of being wound up by the accounting authority of Bala Farms.
There are certain issues that we as a committee feel that should be followed up and reported to Parliament. We have noted with concern that the company, Bala Farms, is in the process of disposing of all its properties, but no timeframe has been set for this process. The company would however continue as a going concern until the properties have been disposed of.
Scopa recommends that within two weeks after tabling of this resolution and adoption by the House it should be provided with the current status of the entity with regard to the winding-up process. We should also be provided with lease agreements and their timeframes; details regarding the plan of action for those properties where leasing is not a viable option; the investment policy being used to ensure optimum risk return; the list of properties that were disposed of; the valuations of the properties and to whom they were disposed of and a detailed report on what processes were followed to establish the respective beneficiaries and the respective selling prices.
A number of those farms have already been sold, but we are of the opinion that more detail should be provided. Scopa will follow up on information requested, as well as specific matters raised during the consideration of the next annual report.
The last report I am going to deal with this afternoon is the fifth one that deals with the Banking Sector Education and Training Authority. The committee commended the management of the Bank Seta for the unqualified report, and trusts that future audit opinion shall be equally unqualified.
The committee further commended the audit committee for the comprehensive report provided. However, we believe that because this Seta was exempted by the National Treasury from the requirement of Treasury regulation 31(3) to invest surplus funds with the co-operation of public deposits, surplus funds were invested in an institution with an investments rating. This is in line with investment policy as required by the Treasury regulations.
Therefore, Scopa recommends that the following information should be provided to Parliament: A copy of the investment policy for unspent funds, which includes consideration of both risk and return; full details of the investment portfolio of unspent funds and a documented strategy on how it intends to utilise its unspent money for the intended purposes, while also ensuring value for money. This is in effect the content of these five reports, and we believe that these reports should be adopted. Thanks a lot. [Applause.]
Ms E NGALEKA: Chairperson, on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party, I move:
That the reports be adopted.
Motion agreed to.
Reports accordingly adopted.
The House adjourned at 17:12. ____
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
- Assent by President in respect of Bills
(1) Companies Amendment Bill [B 10D - 2004] - Act No 20 of 2004
(assented to and signed by President on 15 October 2004).
National Assembly
- Correction of tablings entry
The Speaker, on 19 October 2004, tabled a report submitted by the
Public Protector (see Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, p
905). The entry relating to that tabling should have read:
Report of the Public Protector on an Investigation into
Allegations of Undue Delay, Unlawful and Improper Conduct and
Prejudice in the Rendering of Services at Braamfontein Refugee
Reception Office (now Rosettenville Premises).
- Referral to committees of papers tabled:
The following papers have been tabled and are now referred to the
relevant committees as mentioned below:
(1) The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Trade and Industry. The Reports of the Auditor-General and the
Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements are referred to
the Standing Committee on Public Accounts for consideration:
(a) Report and Financial Statements of the Competition
Tribunal for 2003-2004, including the Report of the Auditor-
General on the Financial Statements for 2003-2004 [RP 103-
2004].
(b) Report and Financial Statements of the South African
National Accreditation System (SANAS) for 2003-2004, including
the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial
Statements for 2003-2004.
(c) Report and Financial Statements of the Council for
Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR) for 2003-2004,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements for 2003-2004 [RP 82-2004].
(2) The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Labour and the Portfolio Committee on Minerals and Energy. The
Reports of the Auditor-General are referred to the Standing
Committee on Public Accounts for consideration:
(a) Report and Financial Statements of the Mining
Qualifications Authority for 2003-2004, including the Report
of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2003-
2004 [RP 53-2004].
(b) Report and Financial Statements of the Chemical Industries
Education and Training Authority for 2003-2004, including the
Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for
2003-2004 [RP 40-2004].
(3) The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Labour and the Portfolio Committee on Finance. The Reports of the
Auditor-General are referred to the Standing Committee on Public
Accounts for consideration:
(a) Report and Financial Statements of the Financial and
Accounting Services Sector Education and Training Authority
(FASSET) for 2003-2004, including the Report of the Auditor-
General on the Financial Statements for 2003-2004 [RP 38-
2004].
(b) Report and Financial Statements of the Bank Sector
Education and Training Authority for 2003-2004, including the
Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for
2003-2004 [RP 39-2004].
(c) Report and Financial Statements of the Insurance Sector
Education and Training Authority for 2003-2004, including the
Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for
2003-2004 [RP 50-2004].
(4) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Labour and the Portfolio Committee on Water Affairs and Forestry.
The Report of the Auditor-General is referred to the Standing
Committee on Public Accounts for consideration:
Report and Financial Statements of the Forest Industries Education
and Training Authority for 2003-2004, including the Report of the
Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2003-2004 [RP 47-
2004].
(5) The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Labour and the Portfolio Committee on Agriculture and Land
Affairs. The Reports of the Auditor-General are referred to the
Standing Committee on Public Accounts for consideration:
(a) Report and Financial Statements of the Sector Education
and Training Authority for Secondary Agriculture for 2003-
2004, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements for 2003-2004 [RP 58-2004].
(b) Report and Financial Statements of the Primary Agriculture
Education and Training Authority for 2003-2004, including the
Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for
2003-2004 [RP 155-2004].
(6) The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Labour and the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry. The
Reports of the Auditor-General are referred to the Standing
Committee on Public Accounts for consideration:
(a) Report and Financial Statements of the Clothing, Textiles,
Footwear and Leather Sector Education and Training Authority
for 2003-2004, including the Report of the Auditor-General on
the Financial Statements for 2003-2004 [RP 41-2004].
(b) Report and Financial Statements of the Food and Beverage
Manufacturing Sector Education and Training Authority for 2003-
2004, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements for 2003-2004 [RP 46-2004].
(c) Report and Financial Statements of the Wholesale and
Retail Sector Education and Training Authority for 2003-2004,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements for 2003-2004 [RP 62-2004].
(d) Report and Financial Statements of the Manufacturing,
Engineering and Related Services Sector Education and Training
Authority for 2003-2004, including the Report of the Auditor-
General on the Financial Statements for 2003-2004 [RP 54-
2004].
(7) The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Labour and the Portfolio Committee on Communications. The Reports
of the Auditor-General are referred to the Standing Committee on
Public Accounts for consideration:
(a) Report and Financial Statements of the Media, Advertising,
Publishing, Printing and Packaging Sector Education and
Training Authority (MAPPP) for 2003-2004, including the Report
of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2003-
2004.
(b) Report and Financial Statements of the Information
Systems, Electronics and Telecommunications Technologies
Sector Education and Training Authority for 2003-2004,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements for 2003-2004 [RP 49-2004].
(8) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Labour and the Portfolio Committee on Transport. The Report of the
Auditor-General is referred to the Standing Committee on Public
Accounts for consideration:
Report and Financial Statements of Transport Education and
Training Authority for 2003-2004, including the Report of the
Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2003-2004 [RP 61-
2004].
(9) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Labour and the Portfolio Committee on Education. The Report of the
Auditor-General is referred to the Standing Committee on Public
Accounts for consideration:
Report and Financial Statements of the Education, Training and
Development Practices Sector Education and Training Authority for
2003-2004, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements for 2003-2004 [RP 44-2004].
(10) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Labour and the Portfolio Committee on Public Works. The Report of
the Auditor-General is referred to the Standing Committee on
Public Accounts for consideration:
Report and Financial Statements of the Construction Sector
Education and Training Authority for 2003-2004, including the
Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2003-
2004 [RP 42-2004].
(11) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Labour, the Portfolio Committee on Health, and the Portfolio
Committee on Social Development. The Report of the Auditor-General
is referred to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts for
consideration:
Report and Financial Statements of the Health and Welfare Sector
Education and Training Authority for 2003-2004, including the
Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2003-
2004 [RP 48-2004].
(12) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Labour, the Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local Government
and the Portfolio Committee on Water Affairs and Forestry. The
Report of the Auditor-General is referred to the Standing
Committee on Public Accounts for consideration:
Report and Financial Statements of the Local Government, Water and
Related Services Sector Education and Training Authority for 2003-
2004, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements for 2003-2004 [RP 51-2004].
(13) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Labour, the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security, the
Portfolio Committee on Correctional Services and the Portfolio
Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development. The Report of
the Auditor-General is referred to the Standing Committee on
Public Accounts for consideration:
Report and Financial Statements of the Police, Security, Legal,
Justice and Correctional Services Sector Education and Training
Authority for 2003-2004, including the Report of the Auditor-
General on the Financial Statements for 2003-2004 [RP 55-2004].
(14) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Labour. The Report of the Auditor-General is referred to the
Standing Committee on Public Accounts for consideration:
Report and Financial Statements of the Services Sector Education
and Training Authority for 2003-2004, including the Report of the
Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2003-2004 [RP 126-
2004].
(15) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Labour and the Portfolio Committee on Minerals and Energy. The
Report of the Auditor-General is referred to the Standing
Committee on Public Accounts for consideration:
Report and Financial Statements of the Energy Sector Education and
Training Authority for 2003-2004, including the Report of the
Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2003-2004 [RP 45-
2004].
(16) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Labour, the Portfolio Committee on Environmental Affairs and
Tourism and the Portfolio Committee on Sport and Recreation. The
Report of the Auditor-General is referred to the Standing
Committee on Public Accounts for consideration:
Report and Financial Statements of the Tourism, Hospitality and
Sport Education and Training Authority for 2003-2004, including
the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for
2003-2004 [RP 60-2004].
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
- The Minister of Foreign Affairs
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 3 - Department of Foreign
Affairs for 2003-2004, including the Report of the Auditor-General on
the Financial Statements of Vote 3 for 2003-2004 [RP 203-2004].
- The Minister of Trade and Industry
(a) Annual Report of the Council for the Non-Proliferation of
Weapons of Mass Destruction for 2002-2003.
(b) Report and Financial Statements of the National Empowerment Fund
for 2003-2004, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on
the Financial Statements 2003-2004.
(c) Report and Financial Statements of the Support Programme for
Industrial Innovation (SPII) for 2003-2004, including the Report
of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements 2003-2004.
d) Report and Financial Statements of Technology for Women in
Business (TWIB) for 2003-2004
COMMITTEE REPORTS
National Assembly
-
Report of the Portfolio Committee on Finance on the National Payment System Amendment Bill [B 14B - 2004] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 20 October 2004:
The Portfolio Committee on Finance, having considered the National Payment System Amendment Bill [B 14B - 2004] (National Assembly - sec 75) and proposed amendments of the National Council of Provinces (Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, 6 October 2004, p 852), referred to the Committee, reports the Bill with amendments [B 14C - 2004].
Report to be considered.