WEDNESDAY, 27 OCTOBER 2004 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

                                ____

The House met at 15:02.

The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr M RAMGOBIN: Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House-

 1) discusses the United Nations proclamation of 2002 that declared
    2004 as the International Year to Commemorate the Struggle Against
    Slavery and its Abolition.

[Applause.] Mr G R MORGAN: Chairperson, I give notice that at the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:

That the House-

 1) notes that the people of Pondoland urgently require developments
    that will reduce poverty and that the significant developments
    currently being considered in Pondoland in regard to the N2 toll
    road and dune mining have major environmental implications;


 2) recognises that consultation with the people of Pondoland regarding
    these developments has been insufficient; and

 3) therefore resolves to debate the various issues surrounding these
    developments in Pondoland.

Mrs C DUDLEY: Chairperson, I give notice that at the next sitting of this House I shall move on behalf of the ACDP:

That the House-

 1) debates whether or not the right message is going out in terms of
    the prevention of sexually transmitted infections and pregnancy;
 2) reminds itself that in view of warnings from doctors that condoms
    regularly fail and do not provide full protection against pregnancy
    or disease;

3) recognises that family medicine experts in the latest edition of South African Family Practice, the official journal of the South African Academy of Family Practice and Primary Care, pointed out that even if male condoms are correctly used, the contraceptive failure rate is relatively high; and

 4) notes that referring to research on contraceptive failure published
    in the South African Medical Journal last year, authors said that
    the survey showed that 17% of contraceptive failures were among
    people whose partners used the male condom.


          ESCALATION OF VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN AND CHILDREN


                         (Draft Resolution)

Ms S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House -

 1) notes that –


    (a) each day articles about violence against women and children
         appear in our newspapers and although Parliament and the
         public have worked hard at stopping such violence we need to
         do more;


    (b) it brings tears to one's eyes when reading of the little four-
         year-old Pretoria girl who was raped and indecently assaulted
         by her mother, granddad, uncle, domestic worker, a prostitute
         and another man and one asks: How sick is this world?;


    (c) Nono Meriet Nhlapo was stabbed and beaten for more than five
          hours by her jealous boyfriend in the East Rand and poor
          Selija Julia Thabethe, may she rest in peace, who was stabbed
          eighteen times and disembowelled by her lover; and


      d) there are sick horrors that continue to destroy the fabric of
         society, violate our Constitution and destroy our people; and


2)      calls on all South Africa to put an end to this violence against
    women and children and show that barbarism is unacceptable and will
    not be tolerated. Agreed to.


                    WATER SERVICES AMENDMENT BILL


                       (Second Reading debate)

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Colleagues and hon members, the primary function of the Water Services Act of 1997 is to provide water services to other water services institutions, mainly municipalities, in their service areas. “Service area” in this case is understood to mean a service area within the borders of our country.

The water boards, being creations of the Water Services Act of 1997, can only do what the Act permits them to do; hence it is necessary for Parliament to amend this Act. The amendment will create an enabling environment for the water boards to operate outside the borders of our country.

The reality we face today, in a world where globalisation has touched every continent and country, is the need to use our own competitive advantage wherever we can. However, most importantly, the Nepad programme becomes instructive for all of us on the continent to work towards a better Africa and a better world. We are, therefore, challenged to share with the rest of the continent the knowledge and skills available in our country.

Our legislative framework and the way we have been able to deliver water to all citizens efficiently in a short space of 10 years are recognised the world over. The water boards have been significant in contributing to this very positive image. Some of our water boards are recognised leaders in their fields; and at times they are approached by other bodies and institutions to assist with water-supply activities in other countries. This type of international recognition is a feather in the cap for these boards. Indeed, this recognition should make us hold our heads up proudly.

In bringing the Water Services Amendment Bill before you, we are asking this House to recognise that South Africa has world-class public institutions in our water boards that have been approached by international organisations, such as the African Development Bank and others, to assist in devising and advising on programmes for basic water services.

Today we are asking the House to pass the amendment to the Water Services Act to allow our water boards to provide these services, as indicated, outside South Africa. However, I want to emphasise that we are allowing the water boards to operate across the borders for various reasons. The first reason is that some of the water boards have accumulated expertise and experience over time - some of them are as old as 100 years and some as old as 50 years – which they have certainly accumulated through the taxpayer’s money, as they are public entities.

Since the formalisation of the sphere of local government and the creation of wall-to-wall municipalities, the functions of the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry have changed from that of service delivery to that of policy and regulation formulation, making us the leader in the water sector. I hope that my colleagues are listening very attentively, so that they realise that we don’t have the budget to deliver, as the budget is with the municipalities.

The legal framework goes on to give powers to municipalities, as service authorities, to appoint their preferred service providers. As a Minister with powers given by the Water Services Act to establish water boards with the purpose of providing water services to other institutions, mainly the municipalities, this new situation clearly challenges me and the department to find a strategic function for the water boards. Hence, it has become necessary to open up these opportunities so that they can expand to other areas in terms of their operations.

We want to make the point that in creating this enabling environment for our water boards, we are conscious that all this needs to happen within a specific regulatory framework and that we have to ensure that the initiative does not only benefit the water boards. In other words, this initiative isn’t only for water boards to make profits, as water boards will have to plough back through the process of building sustainable communities for future generations. Hence, the Bill provides for two phases in the process of legalising this initiative.

During the first phase, four Ministers, namely the Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry, the Minister of Finance, the Minister of Public Enterprises and the Minister of Trade and Industry, determine the limits within which a water board’s intended operation abroad may be authorised. These limits include, firstly, that the activities should be permissible; secondly, that the activities are undertaken with permissible countries, and thirdly, that the amount of capital involved should be permissible.

It is important to mention that during the first phase each of the four Ministers has the right to veto a proposal, and during the second phase each of the two Ministers has the right to veto. I think this process will ensure that any venture abroad by a water board will be subject to close scrutiny and ring-fencing in order to protect the South African consumer, who is supplied by a particular water board, from being detrimentally affected by the board’s international ventures.

The second phase is the actual consideration of a water board’s application to operate abroad. This is done in consultation with the Minister of Finance.

I now put this amendment for your approval, hon members. Thank you. [Applause.]

Ms C C SEPTEMBER: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon members, I rise on behalf of the ANC in support of the Water Services Amendment Bill before us today. As the Minister said, this Bill will, on approval of this House, enable the water boards in South Africa to perform activities outside the borders of South Africa.

At the same time, we are paying tribute today to the late Oliver Reginald Tambo who was born on this day. His legacy lives on in South Africa. Comrade O R left us a significant and enduring heritage, one that enhanced our new Constitution, one that contributed to the inclusive and equitable policies of our democratically elected government and one that affirmed the abiding vision of the ANC itself.

The amendments are enablers for the extension of current skills and capabilities to the rest of the continent in the delivery of basic services by Africans for Africans. Therefore, they should facilitate the delivery of services, and be seen to assist the agenda for the delivery of basic services, ensuring adequate infrastructure and promoting stability.

It is befitting that on 8 October this year, the Norwegian Nobel Committee informed the world that it had decided to award the Nobel Peace Prize for 2004 to Madame Wangari Maathai for her contribution to sustainable development, democracy and peace.

As we debate this Bill today to enable water boards to perform activities outside the borders of South Africa, we appreciate the fact that Madame Maathai chose to improve the low economic status of women through, amongst other things, the protection of forests, water catchment areas, and so on.

This Bill will – and the services to be received must - contribute to more and similar activities in Africa. As Nepad has identified the protection of the indigenous African tropical forests and rainforests; our soil, rivers, lakes and water resources; our biodiversity; our wildlife and natural habitats; and our coastal areas and oceans as a priority task, this amending Bill will enable South Africa to further contribute to this process. It is conceived as important to enable parastatals to make their contribution to Nepad, and as forms of expertise and capacity-building. The principle of parastatals and state-owned enterprises operating extraterritorially is not something new to South Africa.

This amending Bill will allow water boards to make a contribution, as Eskom, Transnet and others have done and are doing.

Water is a basic service and like all basic services it is a key driver for socio-economic development, peace, stability and democracy in the national context. South Africa is a key player in the Nepad programme for the development of Africa. It has a responsibility to share its capacity, knowledge and expertise with the rest of Africa.

Exchanging capacity and expertise demonstrates the spirit of the Freedom Charter. Indeed the Freedom Charter says: “The doors of learning and culture shall be opened.” And here South Africa is doing that and sharing its experience beyond its borders. The principles of the Freedom Charter are still valuable today, because we are sharing in the country’s wealth. Here, we are spreading the country’s wealth even beyond our borders. In this instance, it would be the wealth of knowledge that we would be contributing.

Because of our geographic limits in terms of the availability of water, very careful attention must be paid to the location of new settlements. The long-term environmental costs of sourcing water from neighbouring countries and provinces must be given greater consideration. Hence, we participate in activities outside the country.

We are confident that when permission is granted to water boards to perform activities outside South Africa, that this will be done with the utmost responsibility and with consideration towards the people of South Africa too. Therefore, we ask that this Parliament, through the Portfolio Committee on Water Affairs and Forestry, be empowered with this information on a regular basis.

Secondly, as we enable the activities of the water boards when permission is granted, they should give due consideration to the institutional reform strategy process currently under way in the department, to institutional co- operation and decision-making, to guidelines and principles, to the allocation of roles and responsibility, and to the identification of key stakeholders.

The ANC, in its manifesto in 2004, correctly said and reflected that our task over the next five years with regards to Southern Africa, Africa and the world is to continue to work to contribute whatever we can so that, together with all the people of our region and the continent, we address political stability and the economic and social problems that confront all of us, leading to the victory of the African Renaissance.

Our own Chief Albert Luthuli, Africa’s first Nobel Peace Prize winner and who at the time was the president of the ANC, said in his acceptance speech:

Scientific inventions, at all conceivable levels, should enrich human life, not threaten its existence. Science should be the greatest ally, not the worst enemy of mankind.

More importantly, there should be a relationship between society and the right to life. The right to life is water. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr D K MALULEKE: Chair, hon Ministers and hon members, I would like to reiterate what we as the DA have always said that where there is a meeting of minds, the DA is ready, willing and able to make a contribution to the development of this country and to make sure that South Africa is an investor-friendly environment which can meaningfully address the unemployment situation we find ourselves in today.

It is a known fact that South Africa is a water-stressed country. Therefore it is very important to exercise water conservation methods. I do not believe that anybody can argue with the fact that water is life and life is water. The DA supports the Water Services Amendment Bill.

The Bill seeks to amend section 30 of Act 108 of 1997 by the addition of the following subsections:

  The Minister must, in consultation with the Minister of  Finance,  the
  Minister of Trade and Industry and the Minister of Public  Enterprises
  and by notice in the Gazette, determine the nature of activities  that
  a water board may perform outside the boarders of  the  Republic;  the
  countries in which such activities may be performed; and  the  maximum
  amount of capital that a water board may take out of the Republic when
  an activity contemplated in subsection(4) is performed.


  The Minister may,  in  consultation  with  the  Minister  of  Finance,
  authorise a water board to perform an activity outside the borders  of
  the Republic.

Water boards are established in terms of section 28 of the Water Services Act, Act 108 of 1997, in terms of which a service area is determined for the water board. This service area is understood to mean a service area within the Republic of South Africa. As a water board is a statutory body, it only has the powers conferred upon it by statute. Should a water board, therefore, wish to operate outside the borders of the Republic of South Africa, it lacks the statutory authority to do so.

As I have mentioned, South Africa is water stressed, but Africa is blessed with natural and human resources. An urgent need has, therefore, arisen to create statutory authority to enable water boards to operate extraterritorially. It is conceived as important to enable parastatals to make their contribution to Nepad, also in the form of expertise and capacity-building.

If the Americans can think up a space programme to go to the moon and come back, surely we can if the political will is exercised. Water can be channelled from the Great Lakes region to the south via the DRC, Angola, Namibia, Botswana and South Africa. Clearly, technology is so advanced that there can be no legitimate excuse to say that it cannot be done.

If our lives are dependent on water, then you cannot put a price on life. I know that some will argue that it is too expensive, but we can have a project of that magnitude in view of the fact that we now have the SADC region. Also, unemployment is a problem throughout the region. I envisage this kind of project to be a SADC RDP. It could be a double-barrel programme, with electricity generators constructed along the way in countries where there is a shortage of electricity. And, of course, our water problems could be solved in that way.

I am sure that we could also address the issue of food security by implementing viable agricultural programmes, because we would have enough water for irrigation schemes. If one looks at the flow of wasted water from the Great Lakes region all the way to the Atlantic Ocean, I think that common sense should prevail. I would like to urge our Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry to initiate exploratory talks with the SADC region. I would like to believe that they do have . . . [Time expired.]

Mr M W SIBUYANA: Chair, although there is still much more work that needs to be done within our own borders, we believe that South Africa’s water boards have much to offer countries outside our borders.

Our neighbours in Southern Africa and in the rest of Africa can benefit from the expertise and experience that these water boards have gained over the years. They can therefore contribute to improving the lives of many people.

In the past there was legal uncertainty as to whether water boards could operate outside the borders of South Africa. The service areas of the water boards, established in terms of the Water Services Act, Act 108 of 1997, were understood to mean service areas within the borders of South Africa. This amendment to the Act will now provide much-needed certainty around this important issue.

There are already water boards that have expressed interest in operating outside the South African borders. This proposed amendment to section 30 of the Water Services Act will provide for a process to authorise extraterritorial activities of water boards.

As I mentioned earlier, there is still much that we need to do for the people within our borders as there are still many areas that, and many people who, have inadequate access to water. We hope that the water boards will not embark on activities in other countries while ignoring or not giving attention to the people and communities within our borders who are so rightfully deserving. I thank you.

Ms S N SIGCAU (Sylvia N): Chairperson and hon members, although this is a very short Bill, it raises a very complex and problematic issue regarding water boards operating outside South Africa.

Whilst we welcome the inclusion of four Ministers in the decision-making procedure that will lead to permission being granted for such extraterritorial activity, we remain concerned. The fact remains that there are overwhelming water service needs inside the borders of this country.

Without disputing the objectives of Nepad, our first priority must remain the citizens of this country. We urge the Ministers to consider any such applications with great circumspection. Water boards must realise that their first duty is to the people of South Africa. However, the UDM welcomes the Water Services Amendment Bill. I thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Mr K D S DURR: Chairperson, this is a simple Bill with far-reaching consequences. It would not be an overstatement to say that if we want our water-poor region to be a success, a precondition must be the wise and productive use of our limited water resources.

Often, as with food, water availability is not the problem, but distribution is the problem. In the field of distribution, our water boards, with almost a century of experience, have an enormous amount of technology. The advice of South Africa’s water boards have been sought from the Middle East and Africa in the fields of water purification, impounding, transport, management, distribution, the application of industrial water and so on.

We have seen the benefits of co-operation in protecting the natural habit in the great transnational wildlife parks. We can do the same with transnational co-operation with catchments and water.

Our great water boards, as I have said, have a huge amount of experience. The ACDP believes that the Bill will help us protect our vital water interests; provide for co-operation, technology transfer and potential joint ventures with our neighbours; unlock large opportunities for regional development; and will allow us to assist others in raising capital for water projects internationally as well as in the financial hub of Johannesburg.

Our water boards have long experience in this. They are well known in the capital markets of Europe, and they have an impressive track record which they can share with others. This will create economies of scale for joint projects and unlock opportunities for co-operation within the framework of Nepad, which this legislation will underpin. It will allow us to use and stretch the limited and scarce technical capacity in our region in this field for the common good.

In fact, our water boards are already working, and this will simply regularise some activities that are already taking place. I remember being very proud when I stood on a golf course in Bahrain and knew that it was being watered by water which has gone through desalination – South African technology – at 90 000 gallons a day and that this technology was home- grown. I thank you. The ACDP supports this measure. [Applause.]

Mr S SIMMONS: Chairperson, the NP supports the Water Services Amendment Bill. The NP is of the opinion that granting water boards the power to operate outside the borders of the Republic of South Africa and without being prejudicial to local municipalities, would not only be in the interests of South Africa, but also in the interests of the African Union, Nepad and the Southern African countries.

Besides delivering a service, our water boards would also empower the respective countries requesting their services with knowledge - the necessary skills that they lack – and regional development. I thank you, Chair.

Ms S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, the supply of fresh running water to so many poverty-stricken areas in the Republic of South Africa has been successfully supported, and yet still many areas need to be supported. There have been recent concerns, shared by the public at large, of possible water restrictions and shortages.

The MF has no objection to water boards operating extraterritorially as long as such operations are convened under the applicable Ministers’ supervision, authority and discretion. The MF agrees that this will contribute to our efforts in terms of Nepad. We support this supervision as long as it does not compromise water services to local South Africans or the authorities of local municipalities in this regard.

Further, the public needs to know that the government, together with the water services boards, aims to supply all South Africans with clean, healthy water and that the needs of our people are always first and foremost.

Further, the public should be advised that extraterritorial water services would by no means compromise any South African’s access to clean running water. Considering the fact that the earth is primarily made up of water, it is hoped that a solution will soon be reached to correct the water shortage. The MF supports the Bill. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): I now call the hon B G Mosala, who is making his maiden speech. [Applause.]

Mr B G MOSALA: Chairperson, hon behalf of the ANC I also rise to support this Bill.

Eighty-seven years ago on 27 October, Comrade Oliver Reginald Tambo, a legend in our struggle who contributed to our existence in this Chamber, was born. Today, as I participate in the debate on this amending Bill, I am driven by the spirit of this giant who liberated us from the shackles of the ordeal that was apartheid. We salute you, comrade.

If not for the historic reburial of Comrade Mxolisi Majombozi, a young lion, by the ANC Youth League, the ANC Youth League would have been at the graveside of this legend today. We salute you, comrade. May your undying spirit, as we remember your birthday, rest in peace.

Water boards, as bulk suppliers of this life-giving commodity, fulfil an extremely critical role in the economy of our country. It is a role that most of us would easily take for granted, but it is a function that ensures that the wheels of industry keep turning, that power is generated and that life in our homes proceeds normally.

When a water board is established according to section 28 of the Water Services Act, Act 108 of 1997, a service area within which the board may operate is determined. This House has already alluded to this, but it is important to emphasise that this service area hitherto has had to be within the borders of the Republic of South Africa.

The Water Services Amendment Bill now seeks to provide statutory authority for a water board to operate extraterritorially as a statutory body. Confining the boards to trading solely within the borders of South Africa has clearly been stifling their capacity to compete globally. They are now being given the opportunity through this Bill. We can only hope that they will face this challenge responsibly.

Proper control and monitoring measures have been built into this Bill in the sense that there will be interministerial consultation, and the nature of the activities will be monitored and will have to be approved. Even the countries in which such activities may be performed will have to be approved. The amount of capital that a water board may take out of the Republic will also have to be determined and approved.

There is absolutely no doubt that South Africa, as an acknowledged world leader in water services and water-resource management, is yet to prove that this Bill will benefit the Republic of South Africa and its people. Our contribution to Nepad has already been alluded to.

Modulasetulo, ho bohlokwa hore ke totobatse hore mmuso wa rona o etelletsweng pele ke mokgatlo o moholo, o maikemisetsong a ho ntlafatsa le ho matlafatsa, esitana le ho nolofatsa kgwebisano pakeng tsa lefatshe la rona le dinaha tse mabapi le tse hole le rona ka metsi. Re lokela ho utlwisisa hore metsi ke sesebediswa seo mang le mang a nang le tokelo ho sona.

Metsi ke bophelo. Re lokela ho boela re utlwisisa hore ka molao ona, mmuso ha ore metsi a na le beng ba ona, mme kgwebisano ka metsi e kgethetswe ba itseng feela. Empa re lokela ho utlwisisa hore ho na le ba seng ba ile ba ikitlaetsa ho hlwekisa metsi, le ho a lokisetsa tshebediso. Ba jwalo he, ba fuwa monyetla wa ho hweba le mafatshe a mang. Mekhatlo e teng ka hara naha, e fumana tokelo ena. (Translation of Sesotho paragraphs follows.)

[Chairperson, it is important that I should clarify that our government, led by the majority party, is prepared to develop and strengthen water business and to make water business easy between our country and neighbouring countries as well as those that are far from us. We have to understand that water is an essential commodity that everyone has the right to.

Water is life. We have to again understand that by this law, the government does not say water has a rightful owner, nor that water business is only for the chosen few. But we have to understand that there are those who have committed themselves to purifying water, and to preparing it for consumption. People like that are given an opportunity to do business with other countries. Parties that are in the country get this right.]

We also have to note, as some concerns have been raised, that water is not being privatised. This Bill must not be seen as an attempt to privatise water services. The Bill clearly enhances the potential for skills transfer, job creation and capacity-building. It is a Bill that makes it easier for countries to bridge the infrastructure gap.

Metsi a tswang mehloding e Lesotho a phalla dinokeng tse phallang lefatsheng la rona. Metsi ao ke ona a ntlafatsang moruo wa rona. Kahoo ho hotle hakaakang ho sebedisa bokgoni le boitsebelo ba rona ka tshebediso ya thepa ya mafatshe a mabapi. (Translation of Sesotho paragraph follows.)

[Water from the Lesotho source runs through rivers that are in our country. That water develops our economy. How beautiful it is to use our expertise and skills when using the property of neighbouring countries.]

The Bill recognises that Africa has an abundance of natural resources and that the people who hold the key to her development live on this continent. We remain convinced that stability on the continent of Africa will emerge if African countries assist in developing one another in the spirit of Batho Pele. This Bill aims to achieve this objective.

In the run-up to this moment, the stakeholders who participated in the hearings that discussed the Bill showed tremendous support. They showed concern at times, but will continue to engage in this matter. Together, with water, we shall improve the lives of South Africans.

We appreciate and value the support that we seem to have received from the opposition. We note all the concerns raised. To those who opposed this Bill, we invite you to read it once more, because we suspect that you might not have understood the contents sufficiently. The ANC supports this Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Thank you very much, Deputy Chair. Deputy Chair, I just want to thank all the members who participated in this debate, lead by the very capable chairperson of the portfolio committee, Connie September. I thank all of you for your support and I know that you will help in monitoring the implementation of this Act.

Mr Maluleke, regarding the issue that you have raised about SADC, there are a number of such initiatives that are already under way, and we will inform you when the time comes. Somebody said that our people remain a priority. I think it was the hon Sigcau. We definitely cannot agree with you more. That is why we are regulating this initiative. I had the pleasure of addressing the water boards - their association. They understood fully what this initiative meant for them.

In conclusion, I would just like to say that there can be no better way to honour O R Tambo than extending services to Africa that will contribute to sustainable development in the spirit of the African Renaissance. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill read a second time.

CONSIDERATION OF SIXTH REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS – CHIETA

CONSIDERATION OF SEVENTH REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS – CETA

CONSIDERATION OF EIGHTH REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS – DIDTETA CONSIDERATION OF NINTH REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS – ESETA CONSIDERATION OF TENTH REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS – ETDP-SETA Mr F BEUKMAN: Chairperson, thank you for the opportunity to present on behalf of Scopa the following reports to the House. I would like to say a special word of thanks to cluster 1 of Scopa, under the able leadership of the hon Pierre Gerber, who evaluated the financial statements and reports of the Auditor-General and these institutions.

The reports refer to five Setas or Sector Education and Training Authorities. Yesterday there was a discussion in the House on the subject of education and training authorities that highlighted the role of these institutions and the need for them to function effectively. From the perspective of Scopa, we are especially interested in their progress with regards to governance, financial management and adherence to prescribed financial procedures.

The financial statements of the Setas have been audited in terms of section 188 of the Constitution, read with sections 3 and 5 of the Auditor-General Act, and with section 14 of the Skills Development Act.

Although the five Setas received unqualified audit reports from the Auditor- General, there are various issues in relation to investment policy, internal control and internal audit that need urgent attention. The mentioned Setas should report to Parliament what steps are practically implementable to rectify the current deficiencies and weaknesses.

With reference to the sixth report, namely the Chemical Industries Education and Training Authority, Chieta, Scopa recommends that within two weeks of tabling this resolution, Chieta provide Scopa and Parliament with the following: a copy of the investment policy for unspent funds, which includes consideration of both risk and return, full details of the investment portfolio of unspent funds, and a document strategy on how it intends to utilise its unspent money for the intended purposes, while also ensuring value for money.

With regard to the seventh report, namely the Construction Education and Training Authority, or Ceta – that’s not a rugby team, but a Seta - we especially referred to matters emphasised by the Auditor-General. The committee noted with concern the transfer of assets and liabilities. The transfer of assets, amounting to more than R5,8 million, and liabilities in excess of R4,2 billion, belonging to the now abolished Building Industry Training Board and the Building Industry Training Scheme, has not been finalised. The consultants who investigated the matter are currently in dispute with the Department of Labour and this is delaying the finalisation of the process.

Regarding the internal audit, as a result of the fact that the internal audit function was established in March 2003 and will only be fully functional in the next financial year, the Auditor-General could not place any reliance on the work of the internal auditor. There is also no materiality, and a significant framework has yet to be developed as required by Treasury regulations. The committee expects the accounting authority to expeditiously rectify the issues in question.

Then, with regard to the eighth report, namely the Diplomacy, Intelligence, Defence and Trade Education and Training Authority, Didteta, a matter emphasised by the Auditor-General was the nonapproval of procurement policy. This specific Seta had not yet approved its procurement policy. Therefore, there was no formal basis for authorisation of acquisition of goods and services. The board should therefore indicate why Parliament should not regard this as an irregular expenditure in terms of the PFMA.

With regards to the internal audit and audit committee, Scopa is concerned that the audit committee was only established in February 2003 and that possibly, as a result, the audit committee was not in a position to fully comply with its reporting requirements in terms of the Treasury regulations. Also, there was no materiality and a significant framework had not been developed, as required by Treasury regulations. Scopa expects the accounting authority to expeditiously rectify the issues in question.

The committee also recommends that within two weeks of tabling this resolution they also provide Parliament with an investment policy, as well as full details of the investment portfolio of unspent funds.

Then, with regard to the ninth report, namely the Energy Sector Education and Training Authority, Eseta, there are weaknesses with regard to internal control. We also believe that certain weaknesses with regard to the segregation of duties and the proper delegation of authority should be rectified. With regard to internal audit and the audit committee, we also believe that rectification should take place with regard to requirements indicated by the Treasury regulations.

Then, the final report is the tenth report, which deals with the Education Training and Development Practices Sector Education and Training Authority, ETDP-Seta. One of the matters emphasised by the Auditor-General was weakness in internal control. The following internal control weaknesses were identified: a complete fixed-asset register was not available, and the approved budget and the budget recorded on the accounting system reflected an unreconciled difference. The committee expects the accounting authority to expeditiously rectify all identified weaknesses.

In terms of those five reports, we believe that it is urgently necessary that these Setas rectify these matters and report back to Parliament so that we can have progress reports with regard to those matters. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move that the Reports be adopted.

Motion agreed to.

Reports accordingly adopted.

THE IMPACT AND CHALLENGES OF GOVERNMENT POLICIES ON POVERTY REDUCTION AS WE CELEBRATE SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT MONTH

                      (Subject for Discussion)

Mrs T J TSHIVHASE: Deputy Chairperson and hon members, as October is Social Development Month, we must celebrate our achievements. As the ANC government, we have done a lot to improve the lives of the people of our country.

Tshifhingani tsha muvhuso wo fhiraho, vhathu vha Afurika Tshipembe vho kwamea vhukuma nga masiandaitwa a vhukoloni, khethano nga lukanda, khethano nga mbeu na minwe milayo ya u tsikeledza. Vho vha vhe kha vhushai, tsiku, ndala na u sa kona u swikelela zwa matshilisano khathihi na masheleni. Minwaha ya fumi ya demokirasi yo vha yo livha kha u fhata lushaka, u tutuwedza vhupfumedzani, na u khwathisedza zwiimiswa zwa u fhata na u tshimbidza demokirasi. Kha yeneyi minwaha ya fumi, ro kona u nekedza magavhelo a edanaho u unda vhana khathihi na tshumelo dza zwa mutakalo dza mahala kha vhana vhare fhasi ha minwaha ya rathi.

Muvhuso wo divhadza uri u do engedza tshelede ya u unda vhana u swika kha vhana vha vhukale ha minwaha ya 14. Hu khou lavhelelwa uri u engedzwa ha tshelede hu do kona u swikelela vhana vha milioni dza 3,2 kha minwaha ya fumi ine ya khou tevhela. U itela u kona u langa tshivhalo tshihulwane ngaurali, muhasho wo da na muhumbulo wa u khethekanya vhana nga zwigwada u ya nga minwaha; Sa tsumbo, vhana vha vhukale ha minwaha ya sumbe na ya malo vho vha vha tshi fanela u ita khumbelo ya tshelede ya u unda nga nwaha wa 2003-04, vha vhukale ha minwaha ya tahe u ya kha ya fumi na muthihi vha tshi tea u ita khumbelo nga 2004-05 ngeno vhothe vha minwe minwaha vha tshi tea u ita khumbelo nga 2005-06. Mbekanyamushumo iyi i do hwala vhudifhinduleli ha u vhona uri maga aya a tevhelwe. (Translation of Tshivenda paragraphs follows.)

[During the time of the previous regime, the people of South Africa were highly affected by the legacies of colonialism, racial and gender discrimination as well as other oppressive laws. They were living in poverty, squalor, and starvation and did not have equal access to social economic security. Ten years of democracy was based on nation-building, reconciliation and the strengthening of development structures to build and improve democracy. During this period we managed to issue sufficient grants to maintain children and to offer free health-care services to children younger than six years.

The government announced that it would increase the funds to maintain children until they are 14 years of age. It is anticipated that the increment would be accessible to 3,2 million children in the next 10 years. To manage such a huge number, the government introduced a phased approach whereby children are clustered according to their age groups. For example children who are seven and eight years old were supposed to have been registered for the grants in 2003-2004, while those between nine and eleven years were supposed to have been registered in 2004-2005, whereas all other age groups are supposed to be registered in 2005-2006. This programme will carry the responsibility of ensuring that these grants are adhered to.]

There has long been concern that the provinces do not have the capacity to administrate social security efficiently and effectively. One of the areas of particular concern is the fact that when money is allocated to provinces as part of their equitable share, there is no guarantee that the money earmarked for social grants will not be used for other provincial priorities than what it was intended for. The department has repeatedly been taken to court over the suspension of grants, and repeatedly the courts have ruled against the department.

A review of the regulations of the Social Assistance Act, Act 59 of 1992, has not been completely successful in eradicating the problem of the suspension of grants. During February 2003 another judgment was passed against the government. In the light of these challenges, and in the light of the recommendations made by the Taylor committee, Cabinet has in principle given approval for the establishment of a dedicated national public entity to administer and pay grants. This means that full responsibility for the social grants function may shift to the national government.

Zwa zwino vhana vha Afurika Tshipembe vha khou kona u swikelela magavhelo a tevhelaho; gavhelo la u unda vhana na vha undi vhavho, “foster care and care dependency grant”. Nga nnda ha ayo magavhelo hu kha di vha na manwe manzhi o fhambanaho ane vhadzulapo vha Afurika Tshipembe vha khou diphina ngao. Manwe a hone ndi ane a nga sa “Grant in Aid, War Veteran Grant, Grant for the Aged na Grant for the Disabled”.

Vhana vha tshivhalo tshi hovhelelaho milioni thanu vha Afurika Tshipembe, zwa zwino vha khou wana magavhelo a u unda. Izwi zwi ri swikisa kha tshelede i linganaho R769 milioni, ine ya khou badelwa kha vhana nga muvhuso nwedzi munwe na munwe. Vhana vha vho wana zwiliwa na zwikoloni. Luafhulelo luhulwane lwa tshelede iyi lune lwa edana 24,3% lu khou badelwa kha vundu la KZN tshelede nwedzi munwe na munwe hone ya edana rannda dza milioni dza R186 nga nwedzi. Vundu line la tevhela ndi Eastern Cape nga 16,7%, Limpopo nga 16,7%, Gauteng nga 12,6 %, Mpumalanga nga 8,3%, North West nga 8,1%, Western Cape 6,1%, Free State nga 5,7%, ha kona u fhedzisela Northern Cape nga 1,6%. (Translation of Tshivenda paragraphs follows.)

[At the moment South African children can access the following grants: the foster care and care dependency grants. Except for these grants, there are still many different kinds which South African people are enjoying. Some of them are, the grant in aid, the war veterans grant, the grant for the aged and the grant for the disabled.

Presently, approximately 5 million South African children are receiving support grants. This brings the money the government is paying for each child per month to R769 million. Children are also getting food at schools. The greatest segment of this amount totaling 24,3% is being paid at KZN per month. The Eastern Cape province follows with 16,7%, Limpopo with 16,7%, Gauteng with 12,6%, Mpumalanga with 8,3%, North West with 8,1%, Western Cape with 6,1%, Free State with 5,7% and lastly the Northern Cape with 1,6%.]

Basically, foster care grants are paid to more than 200 000 people in South Africa every month. The amount of R110 million a month goes to KwaZulu- Natal, the larger recipient of foster care grants. This allowance is the greatest segment of the grant. It is followed by the Eastern Cape, the Free State, the Western Cape, Limpopo, Gauteng, the North West, the Northern Cape and Mpumalanga.

A total of more than 78 000 South African children are receiving the care dependency grant. This amounts to approximately R58 million, which is being paid out to beneficiaries on a monthly basis. In his 2004-05 Budget Speech, the Minister of Finance announced a general increase in the amounts paid for various grants.

Ri na vhana vhanzhi vhane vha khou wana masheleni. Hu na dzithandela dzi linganaho 3 500 dzine vhathu vho newa masheleni khadzo ane a lingana R521 wa dzimilioni. Zwa zwino ri tshi khou amba, hu na vhana vhanzhi vhane vha khou wana magavhelo. Ri kha di vha na khaedu khulwane ngamaanda vhukati ha vhathu vhashu vha ne vha kha di dinwa nga vhushai. Hu na magavhelo ane a khou nekedzwa nga muvhuso. Vhanwe vhana vha kha di kundelwa nga u ya zwikoloni, vhanwe vha kha di kundelwa u badela dzitshelede dza mitendelo wa tshikoloni. R I na vhana vhane vha khou vhaisala nga HIV/Aids, vhana vha si na mahaya, vhana vho di imisaho sa vhabebi vhane vha khou thogomela midi.

Ri khou zwi dzhiela nzhele zwauri zwothe zwe ra swikelela zwo konadzea nga vhutama vhu re hone vhukati ha muvhuso na madzangano o diimisaho nga othe, khathihi na lushaka lwothe nga u angaredza. Ndi zwine ra ri, ri tea u farisana ra ita mutingati kha khaedu dzothe dzo ri livhanaho. Ndi tama u ita khuwelelo kha dzithama dzashu dza zwa matshilisano na madzangano o diimisaho zwauri, kha ri shume rothe ro khwathisa u itela u bveledza muano wa vhutshilo ha khwine kha rothe. (Translation of Tshivenda paragraphs follows.)

[We have many children who are receiving money. There are 3500 projects whereby people were given funds totaling R521 million. As we are talking, there are many children who are receiving grants. We are still faced with a huge challenge with regard to our people who are living in poverty. The government is disseminating grants. Some children cannot go to school, whereas others cannot pay school fees. We have children who are suffering from HIV/Aids, homeless children and child-headed households.

We are taking into consideration that all we have achieved was made possible as a result of the co-operation between the government, NGOs and the nation as a whole. That is why we say that we must unify and act collectively in meeting all the challenges facing us. I would like to call on our social partners and the NGOs to strengthen our working relationships in order to accelerate the motto: A people’s contract for a better life for all our people.]

We have a people’s contract for a better life for all our people. Let us take up all these challenges together.

Rothe ro sedza lifhasi nga u angaredza sa zwe Muphuresidende vha ri kha ri lwe na vhushai. Ndi a livhuwa. Tshanda ntha ha tshinwe. [U vhanda zwanda.] (Translation of Tshivenda paragraph follows.)

[Let us take up these challenges together. We are all looking at the global world as a whole as the President has urged us to wage a fight against poverty. I thank you. [Applause.]]

Ms H WEBER: Thank you, Madam Chair. Social Development Month should be a month of great celebration but, alas, it is confined to those who receive their grants timeously and without many hassles, and to those who have a job. We are therefore seeing many a disillusioned, frustrated South African. We are witnessing people being put in positions - which they are not qualified for - to balance out job equity. This not only leads to frustration but to inefficient productivity. Although the government has attempted to relieve poverty through various grants being paid out, this is a far cry from creating jobs.

There is nothing more uplifting for a breadwinner than to leave his or her home to go to work and bring back money for which he or she has put in a hard day’s work. This, unfortunately, is a scenario for about half the population. The rest linger around, disillusioned and losing their self- worth. Some are trained, but have been retrenched. Others look for training, but the doors are closed. How often do we see notices that say, “No jobs”?

The paying of grants does help to put some food on the table but, as the hon Minister rightly said, we must avoid becoming a welfare state. The government did come up with black economic empowerment with an eye on giving the previously disadvantaged a chance to better themselves. This, unfortunately, has only created a few billionaires to the detriment of the masses.

The DA has had policies in place which have been worked out and proven to be economically viable. Our basic income grant would be an easier grant to manage. Such a grant would not discriminate against unemployed young men or have a proviso that a young girl must have a child to access such a grant. It would kick-start young entrepreneurs to at least try to help themselves.

Child support grants are proving to be unmanageable, with those really needing them having difficulty in getting the necessary documentation required to access these grants. It is laudable that the grant recipient age limit is to be increased but, still, this is not creating jobs as the government promised.

The National Development Agency, NDA, which set out to be a good institution, is now dysfunctional, thwarted by fraud and corruption. This once more is proof that the government has a problem with implementing many of its policies. Setas, which also seemed to be a good idea, are also suffering at the hands of incompetent administrators.

There are blueprints out there, and I am sure that we should be looking at proven ways of training and of creating jobs. The DA believes that greater faith should be placed in the private and NGO sectors as delivery mechanisms for poverty relief. Experience has shown that spending vast sums of money on the creation of new expensive bureaucratic structures to deliver poverty relief over time simply results in the poor being short- changed.

The DA’s aim is to get the best, most cost-effective and affordable aid directly to poor people. Thus, one creates bigger individuals and smaller government. The government’s policy of helping those people receiving grants to start food gardens by supplying them with starter packs of seeds also seemed like a good idea but, once more, has been weighed down with bureaucracy as people have to wait for the Department of Agriculture to show them how to create a food garden. Many an NGO has had great success in such fields and, I am sure, if given the opportunity and some government funding would make successes of such ventures. This would have the desired effect of people being able to feed themselves.

A further major challenge facing South Africa is how to address the ever- increasing problem of child-headed households. We have the situation of children bringing up children. Not only is this causing children to suddenly become adults, but it is also depriving them of going into a profession of their choice and depriving them of a childhood.

South Africa has a wealth of talent and job opportunities waiting to be created, were it not for unnecessary bureaucracy, inefficient delivery and government interference. Free the economy and encourage normal job creation and we will have a poverty-free country.

In 1996, small, medium and micro enterprises were to be promoted by government, but the people have found it difficult to get the required training. Government would do well to establish business support centres in disadvantaged areas that are easily accessible to as many people as possible. This is one of the many suggestions that the DA has in its policy for job creation. The training of people to run a business would prevent so many small businesses from being closed down in many rural areas. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mnu M J BHENGU: Mama Somlomo neNdlu yakho ehloniphekile, selokhu saqala ukufika kuleli Phalamende ngo-1994 siye size njalo lapha ngaphambili sizokhuluma ngobubha nangokuhlukumezeka, njengoba singabantu abampofu. Kukhona into eyodwa kodwa esiye sikhohlwe ukuyisho: ukuthi ubuphofu lobu buyawuhlukumeza umqondo womuntu, bubuye futhi buhlukumeze nobuntu bomuntu uqobo. Kuphinde kwenze into ebuhlungu kakhulu ngoba kuthatha ubuhlakani bomuntu abuphiwe uNkulunkulu kwehlise izinga labo. Lokho-ke kudalwa isimo esisodwa sohlelo lwamaBhunu okwakhuthiwa i-apartheid.

. . . Manje-ke mina ngifuna kube khona okwenzekayo, singalokhu siza lapha ngaphambili sizothi . . . (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Mr M J Bhengu: Madam Speaker and hon members, since we arrived here in Parliament in 1994, it has been our practice to come to the podium and talk about poverty and abuse since we are poor people. There is something that we tend to forget: That poverty renders frustration, demoralisation and reduces the person. Poverty also hampers the intelligence of a person that was given to him by God.

All this was created by the apartheid system. Therefore, I want us to do something and stop coming here to say. . . ]

. . . poverty reduction, poverty reduction, poverty reduction. Let us get action. For instance, I want to know: Do departments prioritise poverty programmes, or do they put them aside and concentrate on other problems? I want to whether there is any synergy amongst departments in implementing poverty reduction programmes. Isn’t it time to have a single directorate that will concentrate on actually establishing all the poverty reduction programmes?

Asikakafiki leso sikhathi lapho sizoba nomuntu oyedwa ozothi, “Cha, manje ngisebenza indaba yokunciphisa ububha nobuphofu”? Thina njengamalungu ePhalamende silokhu sigqoka kahle bese sizokhuluma lapha kodwa abantu bakithi emakhaya le bayahlupheka. Ngendlela abahlupheka ngayo … Kubuhlungu kabi ngoba abanye bethu abakwazi ukuhlupheka. Manje lapha sisuke sikhulume ngezibalo zama-statistics namaphesenti. Konke lokho kuwumbhedo ngoba abantu bayahlupheka. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.) The time has not yet come where a person will come forward and say: No, now is the time to work towards alleviating hunger and poverty. As members of Parliament we dress smart and continue to debate here, yet our people in the rural areas are starving. If you look at the degree of their starvation, its quite painful because some of us here have not experienced starvation. Our problem is we come here and rush to talk about figures and statistics. Action of this kind is frivolous because our people are starving.]

Even policy formulation should be done in such a manner that there is co- ordination and synergy of all these poverty reduction programmes. Therefore, the IFP says the time has come for us to embark on a holistic perspective when we talk in terms of poverty reduction. We should actually begin to teach our people to become independent and self-reliant, instead of embarking on piecemeal solutions that only ease the brunt of poverty. This is because we believe that human development for self-reliance and sustainability is what the government should focus on in terms of policy formulation for poverty reduction.

We believe that understanding the dimensions of poverty is essential to the formulation of policies and programmes which aim to reduce poverty. That is why measuring performance and sustainability becomes vital, but understanding the depth and extent of poverty fully is only the first step, which is necessary but not sufficient to achieve poverty alleviation.

Ngakho-ke ngithi, nansi inselelo: Iminyango ayiqale ibhukule ukuze abantu bakithi babone ukuthi ngempela uhlelo lokwehlisa ububha nobuphofu luyenzeka ngokubonakalayo. [Ihlombe.][Therefore I invite you to this challenge. The departments should start with the implementation of poverty alleviation programmes. [Applause.]]

Mr M DIKO: Madam Chair, as we celebrate Social Development Month, the Minister of Finance has expressed his concern regarding the rapidly expanding demands that social grants place on the Budget. He described this as unsustainable. One cannot help but notice the irony: Before the election there was a big rush to encourage people to register for social grants, but afterwards we are told that this is an unsustainable burden on the government.

At the heart of this issue is the responsibility of government to reduce poverty and the mechanisms that it uses to achieve this goal. The UDM does not dispute the urgent and overwhelming need to assist the many poor people. However, we are saying that the main way of dealing with poverty eradication would be job creation.

Job creation remains the most important priority. And, whilst government assures us that there are plans currently afoot to deliver jobs, we must remind them that throughout their 10 years there have always been plans, strategies and summits. The pertinent question is whether the latest plans will deliver the promised jobs and how we would monitor progress in this regard.

We believe that improved performance with regard to job creation will ensure that social development and the proper upbringing of our people become a reality and therefore give impetus to our freedom. Thank you.

Mr L W GREYLING: The ID’s vision for South Africa is of a country where every person can realise their true potential through either being employed or creating employment for others. In this society, nobody will have the need for social assistance as they will be able to provide a sustainable livelihood for themselves.

This is, no doubt, a vision which many of us share in this House. But, the present reality, unfortunately, dictates that this will merely remain a dream for many years to come. We need to face the facts. Despite the efforts of government in extending the social security net, millions of South Africans still live in abject poverty.

Unemployment and the tragic legacy of a divided society are in many cases responsible for this situation. Unfortunately, though, even with the best policy and political will in the world, overcoming this legacy will take many years. Unemployment in South Africa is of a structural nature and its causes are far more complex than simple labour laws.

As we believe in a caring state, the ID believes that the government needs to extend the social security net so that the millions of impoverished South Africans who do not qualify for any of the five grants can also receive assistance from the state.

The ID recognises the increase in budget share that is dedicated to social assistance grants in South Africa, but we need to recognise that this money is also spent on developing our people. In many communities, these grants are the only injection of money that they receive and can, through the multiplier effect, increase economic activity.

A universal basic income grant needs to be considered and not a means- tested one, as the DA proposes. Means tests simply direct resources into a bureaucracy and create huge administrative burdens. The system is already reeling under this effect, as I saw on a recent visit to a pay station in KwaZulu-Natal.

I spoke to people who had had to wait in line for more than seven hours, only to be informed that they had to come back the following month to see if their grant had been approved. They are forced to do this for months on end. We need to restore dignity to our people and reform these administrative systems. A comprehensive social security net will also break the dependency that people have on employed workers and other poverty- stricken families who are forced to look after them. We need to do this, because it is the right thing to do. [Time expired.]

Mrs C DUDLEY: Madam Chair and hon Deputy Minister, I am not entirely sure why we are celebrating. Perhaps, it’s because the annual report of the Department of Social Development has now been tabled. We understand reasons for the delay include senior management vacancies, pressure caused by the establishment of the National Social Security Agency and a management crisis at the National Development Agency – not a rosy picture.

The challenges facing government in terms of poverty reduction are great and, in my opinion, this department is burdened with too wide a responsibility, rendering it ineffective in its role both as service provider and in social development. Job creation and skills development projects are weak and floundering, not due to lack of enthusiasm but lack of expertise, experience and skill.

Where is Labour? Where is Trade and Industry? Where is Agriculture and Land Affairs? This should be their baby. Growing the economy and developing skills cannot be the primary focus of the only portfolio handling social services or, should I say, not handling them.

On a trip to the Eastern Cape I recently witnessed, once again, the enormity of the task facing Social Development. Without budgets or capacity to deliver services to abandoned babies; neglected, abused and orphaned children; children in trouble with the law; the elderly; the sick; the dying, money spent on development initiatives is a mockery.

We witnessed the department’s efforts in extending grants, providing early childhood development and skills development, and job creation projects. Clearly, policy is being implemented, and funds are going to development and poverty alleviation projects, but these projects are at the direct expense of desperately needed social services. Escalating substance-abuse issues, for example, cannot hope to get the necessary attention, despite work on a new master plan, because there is just no budget.

In response to ACDP queries on the impact of certain policies including grants, assurances were given that assessments were under way. The challenges are ominous; the impact, frankly, minimal. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Madam Deputy Chair and hon members, let me first take this opportunity to thank the House for having introduced this timely debate on the impact and challenges of government policies on poverty reduction. Its relevance and significance are uplifted by the fact that October is Social Development Month.

This being our seventh Social Development Month since the advent of democracy and given that we are at the tail end of the tenth anniversary of the celebration of the International Year of the Family, the department has focused its efforts on strengthening families and communities for a better quality of life for all, especially our children.

To achieve this, the Department of Social Development over the past decade has focused its attention on creating a caring society. These goals require that we accelerate our service delivery system from a welfare-based system to a social development-oriented system. Inherent in this system is a people-centred-development approach. This has required a departure from a problem-centred approach to a solutions-oriented approach that builds the requisite skills while creating self-employment and sustainable livelihoods.

The latter twin objectives are not without challenges. It is therefore appropriate that at this time and in the context of our 10-year celebrations, we pause and review the challenges confronted by government with regards to policies and programmes aimed at poverty eradication.

Such a review, which has been conducted in the form of a discussion paper, has provided us with valuable lessons and is the basis of our fresh mandate and social contract, as elaborated on by President Mbeki during the state of the nation address.

These lessons have included the transformation of the Public Service through the adoption of a co-operative governance framework and enabling legislation such as the PFMA; the improvement of service delivery through the National Planning Framework and Integrated Development Plans; and the broadening of access to services such as health care and education as displayed by adult literacy rates that are currently up to 83%.

In order to enhance social justice, the department, together with its various partners, has drafted a model for service delivery. This model will provide a national framework that will give guidelines for developmental service delivery. The draft service delivery model was tabled at the recent Minmec. It is aimed at ensuring that services are delivered with ethos and with the values derived from the eight Batho Pele principles. The implementation of this model will improve systems, work processes and institutional structures, which will collectively improve service delivery at every level and location.

The model will only work properly if it has all the necessary human resources required and if it is implemented in partnership with all those that share our common vision of a better life for all. This approach is not only a polemic standpoint, but one that will assist in building social cohesion through community-based, nongovernmental and faith-based organisations. Such partnerships are necessary to realise the constitutional right of access to social security, which remains one of the key social development priorities in the context of comprehensive social security.

We have conducted a yet-to-be-released report, which interrogated the economic impact of social grants on particular sectors of our communities. I am pleased to confirm that the current social security system as a whole reduces by 45% the total rand destitution gap. In simple terms, this means that a whole lot more people would be poorer without social grants.

It is because of this - the inconsistent norms and standards across provinces - and in response to the reported fraud and corruption in our system, that we remain committed to ensuring that the Social Security Agency is operational by April 2005. Again, to effectively attain this, we will require partnerships.

These partnerships have also created a basis for the Moral Regeneration Movement to restore dignity, respect, pride and optimism. Such partnerships provide the potential for intensifying the fight against the scourge of drug abuse through the creation of community-based prevention programmes. In addition, the department has embarked on a full-scale youth development programme to ensure that our young people use the opportunities available to them for a better life.

The Minister pointed out in his budget address to this House that poverty alleviation and unemployment could not be addressed in isolation from one another. Similarly, as stated previously by President Mbeki in his state of the nation address and reiterated by Minister Manuel yesterday, a society in which large sections of the population depend on social welfare cannot be sustainable.

Poverty eradication should be addressed within a wider set of developmental strategies and programmes, which include all departments and all spheres of government. The central location of poverty eradication means that it is a key criterion by which submissions to the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework should be measured and by which all government developmental programmes are judged by Cabinet.

This department intends to provide a number of work opportunities for South Africans through the Expanded Public Works Programme. In the social sector, work opportunities are being created in the areas of early childhood development and in community and home-based care programmes.

In addition, given the short-term nature of such work opportunities, the department will also focus its efforts on facilitating access to credit and financing for entrepreneurial projects for young people through initiatives, such as the National Development Agency and the Umsobomvu Youth Funds.

The special commitment by the business sector to exploring synergies between corporate social investment and public investment initiatives must be pursued and strengthened in pursuit of creating sustainable work programmes.

Therefore, the critical task is to consolidate, formalise and institutionalise partnerships in the social development sector. This will be achieved by following up on the commitments made during the Growth and Development Summit. All commitments are focused explicitly on combating poverty and creating work opportunities.

The role of Social Development is just one contributor to the broader collective process of reflecting and interrogating the relationship between social development policy and poverty eradication. This will require that we pay careful attention to the economic fundamentals and the social imperatives. Such attention requires integrated government programmes.

Some of the integrated government programmes include the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Programme, the Urban Renewal Programme, the Expanded Public Works Programme, the Integrated Municipal Infrastructure programmes and Working for Water programmes.

The two main co-ordinating strategies for development are the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Programme and the Urban Renewal Programme. These seek to co-ordinate all development programmes across the three spheres of government and parastatals to ensure maximum impact. In particular, they seek to ensure that developmental programmes are targeted to meet basic needs whilst identifying potential, so as to respond to the Integrated Development Plans.

Given that the core responsibility of all departments is to eradicate poverty, Parliament has a significant role to play in monitoring the implementation of commitments made during the Growth and Development Summit. In this regard, progress reports on the various clusters of government have been posted on the government website, in addition to being in annual departmental reports.

Changing population trends show that there is an increase in the number of potentially economically active people as a result of large numbers of young people entering the labour market. Young people aged between 10 and 19 constitute the largest part of the population. Furthermore, women and youths aged between 15 and 24 are experiencing the most difficulty entering the mainstream economy and the labour market. They also represent the groups that are the most vulnerable to HIV/Aids and unplanned pregnancies. All these factors necessitate the socio-economic integration of young people into our society as a priority.

Therefore, the priorities are youth skills development programmes and the location of youth development structures in the Presidency, with similar structures in provinces and in the Department of Social Development in order to collectively ensure the economic integration of young persons.

The department has a particular focus on strengthening families, and also offers the potential of providing capacity and utilising the skills of older persons, a large number of whom carry the burden of supporting family members who are unemployed, sick and abandoned.

Given the increased coverage of grants at a rate above inflation, the key challenge that remains in improving social security in the next decade is to ensure more effective delivery to rural beneficiaries, a reduction in the incidence of fraud and corruption, the development of a framework for comprehensive social protection, and the reduction of the number of people dependent on grants through job creation.

In addressing the link between poverty and development, it is imperative to reach beyond the borders of South Africa. President Thabo Mbeki, in his opening address at the World Summit on Sustainable Development, said: “All of us understand that the goal of shared prosperity is achievable because, for the first time in human history, human society possesses the capacity, the knowledge and the resources to eradicate poverty and underdevelopment.”

This places a responsibility on us as this House to ensure that the issues of poverty, unemployment and underdevelopment are placed firmly on the agendas of regional, continental and global organisations. I therefore take this opportunity to welcome the location of the Pan-African Parliament on our shores in the hope that this will advance the above objective.

It is also my pleasure to inform you that South Africa will chair the review process on the implementation of the Copenhagen commitments at the World Summit on Social Development. A precursor to this will be a meeting of the region’s social development Ministers, in line with our UN resolution elaborating on the social dimensions of Nepad.

I was fortunate to participate in the extraordinary summit of the African Union in Ouagadougou earlier this year, which emphasised the importance of tackling poverty through a comprehensive programme to extend social protection to the poor. In addition, all governments recommitted to implementing Nepad development plans and to mainstreaming vulnerable groups such as women, the youth and the physically challenged into Nepad development plans.

Given the extent of the poverty of the majority, despite the relative positive indices of growth at this stage in our economy, it comes as no surprise that as we remove the barriers to access to the constitutional right to social security, people are registering in large numbers.

But the challenge, as the Minister of Finance said, is to ensure that those who qualify for the grants have access and those who don’t are removed to improve the management of the system.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Deputy Minister, your time has expired.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: As I have reported, the department is making steady progress to improve the management …

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Minister, your time has expired.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Can I just finish my sentence?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Yes. If it is one sentence, certainly.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: As I have reported, the department is making steady progress to improve the management of social grants and introduce systems to eliminate fraud and corruption. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr W D SPIES: Hon Chair, it’s been stated on various occasions that the government is a people-centred government. Their aims are to uplift people, to create opportunities and to eradicate poverty. Whilst these aims are commendable and although the FF Plus supports initiatives aimed at strengthening communities, we should never stop questioning the ways and means to achieve them.

In our view, too many expectations are based on government grants and racially based initiatives, such as affirmative action and black economic empowerment – BEE - in the fight against poverty. According to the United Nations Human Development Report released this year, 22 million South Africans still live below the poverty line. White people occupy about 2 million of the 11,8 million formal jobs that exist in our economy. Even if all these 2 million people were to vacate their jobs in favour of the previously disadvantaged, we would still be left with 20 million very poor and jobless people. To develop and heal our society, it’s not only the job seekers who are important but also the creators of jobs and wealth.

Close to a million highly skilled professional young South Africans have left South Africa in the past 10 years. It is estimated that, with every professional who leaves the country, eight potential job opportunities are lost as a result.

Dr Mahathir bin Mohamad, former prime minister of Malaysia, said at the end of his career: “These few Malays” referring to people who benefited from their policies, “for they are still only a very few, have waxed riches … because of the policy of a government supported by a huge majority of poor Malays. It would seem that the efforts of the poor Malays have gone to enrich only a select few of their own people.” May we learn from the experience of others, and let us find and start using their right medicine to heal the wounds of our society. I thank you.

Mr B E PULE: Thank you, Madam Chair. Social development is one of the most important aspects of a caring nation. As we celebrate Social Development Month, the reduction of poverty will remain a hollow euphemism unless the government has measures in place to maintain the equilibrium between population growth and available resources.

Much has been said about the redistribution of wealth as opposed to the creation of wealth. Let us create wealth first and then redistribute it. The inflow of people into South Africa impacts negatively and therefore poses a big threat to the reduction of poverty because resources are not limitless. The dependency syndrome and other kinds of entitlement, in some instances orchestrated by government itself, also pose a big threat to poverty reduction. People must work to deserve their needs.

There has to be a concerted effort in skills training and, of course, in the transfer of skills by those who have them. There has to be aggressive empowerment of people in small, medium and micro enterprises in order to alleviate unemployment. School curricula must be such that those who complete their education are juxtaposed with the mainstream of the economy of the country and the labour market.

Mo go kgonegang teng a mongwe le mongwe a tshele ka mofofotso wa phatlha ya gagwe. Ke a leboga.[Where it is possible, let us all work hard. Thank you.]

Mr N T GODI: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon members, the evil that was white domination consigned the majority of our people to extreme levels of poverty. The struggle for national liberation and social transformation imparted the desire to change these unbearable material conditions. It is therefore correct and necessary to continually reflect on the extent to which government policies respond to these challenges of poverty eradication.

Broadly, the main thrust against poverty has been predicated on employment creation, assistance to our people to start their own businesses, and social grants. In the limited time that we have, we would like to focus superficially on social grants.

There is abundant evidence that since the advent of democracy, the number of people who now access grants has more than tripled. Millions of our people have been lifted out of absolute poverty to relative poverty. This means that there are no elderly persons, orphans or children within the qualifying age who cannot access state assistance. With the high rate of unemployment, this has become the mainstay of many families in the poor African communities.

It, however, needs to be noted that there are challenges facing the recipients and society at large. The unsuspecting elderly are pounced upon by all manner of vultures selling all sorts of schemes, which gobble up their disposable incomes. The fundamental purpose of the grants does get defeated. Legislative measures need to be looked at to protect the elderly from these rapacious vultures. The pension paypoint committees piloted in Bushbuckridge, Limpompo, can be an additional measure to help the elderly.

The overwhelming majority of our people welcome and have benefited from the child support grant. Our kids no longer have to go hungry because their parents are unemployed. But, of course, there is a handful of irresponsible parents who do not use these grants judiciously and for the benefit of their kids. There are, for example, reports that some single parents misuse these grants to improve their appearance or buy things that do not benefit the children. During a provincial visit we heard of cases in which kids were withdrawn from crèches because their parents pleaded poverty, even though they received their government grants. [Time expired.]

Ms S RAJBALLY: Thank you, Madam Chair. We are a government brought to the people by the people. We are representative of those who voted us into this authority and we are bound by our national Constitution to ensure that we are a government for the people. The MF reaffirms this commitment to catering for the needs and best interests of all South Africans.

As Parliament, we are vested with the task of legislating in terms of the best interests of our people, as advocated by the national Constitution that governs supreme. No Bill shall be passed as law if it contravenes the values and provisions of our democracy enshrined in this document. Thus, all Bills and policies are passed with this in mind.

Ten years into our democracy we are still challenged in many spheres by the aftermath of the apartheid regime, not to mention our cumbersome debt that seriously hinders our advancement. The reality is that poverty, unemployment, crime and our social economic status are serious challenges in South Africa. What is even more real is our government’s commitment to poverty alleviation and social development. This may be visibly noticeable in our achievements of the past 10 years. All our efforts are for the benefit of our people.

The MF is committed to securing a better life for all by coming to this podium and ensuring that every Bill or policy that we debate is sensitive to the needs of our people and, most importantly, that it contributes to efforts aimed at poverty alleviation and social development.

The MF is aware of the hardships that so many South Africans continue to be challenged by, but I stand here to reaffirm our commitment to reaching each and every South African in paving the way for a better life for all. Government policies may not always attain the results we want, but they certainly instil the right intent. South Africans, be confident; we are not giving up and we shall deliver. Thank you, Chair. [Applause.]

Mr B M SOLO: Chair, hon Ministers, hon Deputy Ministers and hon members, since the inception of democracy the ANC has made clear commitments with regard to social development. In the 2004 election campaign manifesto, the ANC expressed its vision very clearly.

For the purpose of this debate, I will only address two issues. The first is the reduction of poverty by half through economic development, comprehensive social security, land reform and improved household and community assets. The provision of social grants is not a solution to the problem. I think people should have listened very carefully to what the President and the Minister of Finance said yesterday.

The second issue is that we must ensure that all South Africans, especially the poor and those at risk - children, the youth, women, the aged and people with disabilities - are fully able to exercise their constitutional rights and enjoy the full dignity of freedom. To that extent, we will go the extra mile to ensure that they enjoy these.

These ANC programmes have been incorporated in government policy. Indeed, within the context of South African social problems, the government has taken huge strides to address social problems by providing effective social welfare services and development programmes that empower the poor, particularly the previously disadvantaged communities, communities in rural areas and those in informal settlements.

The ANC-led government formulated policies that alleviate the plight of vulnerable groups such as children, the elderly, women, the youth, the unemployed, people with disabilities and the underemployed. It is mainly through the Department of Social Development that government has introduced these programmes. These programmes have a positive impact on the lives of the many South Africans who deserve them.

For those doubting Thomases who stood here and spoke about things they themselves don’t understand, allow me to illustrate these programmes. Apart from social grants, there are clear welfare programmes, starting with children up to the most vulnerable person.

Regarding children, the ANC-led government introduced what is called the Early Childhood Development programme. This programme supports and promotes the care of children from a young age. If one moves around in the so-called townships, informal settlements and rural areas, one sees a myriad of crèches that look after children. A substantial number of these get support from the state in many forms, including finance, and this has created a lot of jobs for our people out there.

The implementation of the national school nutrition programme has also contributed towards making an impact on poverty. This programme is premised on community participation, and mobilises communities to develop food gardens. As we know, the primary goal of the programme is school feeding, while also using resources invested in the programme by government to create sustainable livelihoods for local communities, particularly women.

We are not saying all that looks good is so. We are aware that many of these crèches still do not get financial support for many reasons, some relating to regulation criteria and standards set out by various institutions. This is a matter that the Portfolio Committee on Social Development and the department is seized with.

Needless to say, social development is key to building a caring society that can develop not only socially, but economically as well. That is why the ANC manifesto calls upon all of us to work towards creating jobs, not for me to have a better life, but for all of us. This is a contract that as a country, as a nation and as the government we need to honour.

With regard to unemployment, institutional arrangements have been created. The creation or establishment of organisations, such as the National Development Agency and others, was solely for that purpose. We all know that through an Act of Parliament the NDA was created to deal with the question of poverty eradication. This, once more, has shown how determined the ANC-led government is to deal with this matter.

President Thabo Mbeki has already indicated that by the year 2015 we need to have halved poverty. Accordingly, the NDA has been working on this matter in a systematic way. A number of community-based organisations have been established. These organisations have a range of projects such as baking, sewing, dressmaking, small-scale farming, brickmaking, to mention but a few. The grants received from the NDA enhance livelihood, security and self-reliance.

Madam … err Deputy Speaker … [Laughter.]

Sekela-Somlomo, njengoko senditshilo, ezi nkqubo …[Deputy Speaker, as I have already said, these programmes….]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member, may I clear it up for everybody? It is just “hon Chairperson”.

Mr B M SOLO: Sihlalo, njengoko sendichazile, ezinye zezi nkqubo zibancede kakhulu abantu phaya emakhaya nakwiidolophana ezincinci. Ndingathanda ukunika imizekelo ngoba abanye ababoni, amehlo avalekile, ababoni nendlela le abahamba kuyo ukuba iphuculiwe. Abanye besinabo Kwazulu-Natal, bayibona imizamo eyenziwa ngabantu ukuze baphile impilo engcono besebenzisa uncedo abalinikwa ngurhulumente ukuze bazimele.

Ndiyayazi ukuba ikhona imibutho yasekuhlaleni, omnye wayo yiNgqayizivele ophaya kwilokishi iMpumelelo, eDevon, kwiphondo laseGauteng. Lo mbutho uneenkqubo zawo, ndicinga ukuba zintathu: zokubhaka; ukwenza ifenishala; ukuthunga nokunitha. Le misetyenzana inempumelelo.

Bonke abantu bangakhwela inqwelomoya, mhlawumbi ngomso lo, bakhawuleze baye kuzibona. Zikhona, asithethi ngezinto ezingekhoyo. [Kwaqhwatywa.]

Kwakhona, siyafuna ukutsho ukuba iinkqubo ezingama-408 ziyaqhuba kulo lonke eli, ngakumbi phaya emakhaya. Izolo oku besiKwaZulu-Natal, sayibona indlela abantu abazimisele ngayo ukuba olu ncedo luncinci balunikwa ngurhulumente bakwazi ukuziphilisa ngalo. Basibonisile amaphulo abawaqhubayo. Abanye bethu bebekhona bezibonela ngamehlo abo. Mhlawumbi kufuneka sibafunele ezona ndondo zakhe zankulu. (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)

[Mr B M SOLO: Chairperson, as I previously explained, these programmes are of great assistance to people in the rural areas and in small towns. I would like to give some examples as others do not see these developments. When we visited Kwazulu-Natal, members did witness community efforts on development to better their lives with the help from government.

There is a community-based organisation known as Ngqayizivele in Mpumelelo Township at Devon in the Gauteng province. This organisation has three successful projects ranging from baking, carpentry, sewing and knitting.

Members are permitted to go and observe these projects because they exist. [Applause.]

We want to allude to the fact that there are about 408 running programmes in the whole of South Africa, especially in the rural areas. In KwaZulu- Natal, we observed the way communities appreciate the little help they get from government in order to sustain their lives. They have demonstrated to us some of their projects and members who were there have witnessed those. If they did not see anything, they probably need spectacles.]

Over and above that, there are a whole range of programmes that are service- driven for the elderly, those who are infected with HIV and Aids . . .

. . . ngakumbi phaya emakhaya, eziqhutywa yimibutho yasekuhlaleni ethe yamamela ikhwelo likaMongameli elithi abantu mabavuke bazenzele. Abantu bayayenza loo nto ngoba bangenile kwesi sivumelwano kunye ne-ANC, esithi asingorhulumente kuphela oza kukwazi ukulwa nobuhlwempu, nabo mababe nendima abayidlalayo. (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)

[. . . but more especially those in the rural areas. Programmes are community driven especially after the President’s call that people must work for themselves. People are doing that because they have committed themselves together with the ANC to do things themselves, as they realise that poverty relief does not lie only in the government’s hands but that they need to play a role as well.]

The President has previously stated that any society based on social grants will become unsustainable.

Andiyazi ke le mibana kuziwa nayo apha, ngoba leyo into siyibonile siyi- ANC, norhulumente uyibonile, ukuba ikhona imizamo eyenziwayo. Siyazi nokuba izolo uMphathiswa utshilo ukuba masibe nendlela esenza ngayo ukuba abantu bangaxhomekeki kumalizo nokuphiwa ngalo lonke ixesha. Loo nto siyayivuma.

Sitsho ukuba makulungiswe uqoqosho. Ntonje uqoqosho lubanjwe ngabantakwabo. Babalekile nemali, enye bayifihle phantsi koomatrasi, enye bayivalele kula mazwe onke. Abayikhuphi le mali. Boyiswa nakukuhlawula abasebenzi babo. Banee-akhawunti ezityebileyo ezingaka. Bahleli nayo le mali. Leyo yenye yezinto ekufuneka sizijonge. Enye imali bayivalele phaya, bathi yimali yepenshoni, baza kuyisebenzisa xa bekwipenshoni. Imali abahleli nayo ibalelwa kwiibhiliyoni.

Mayikhutshwe le mali, ukuze size kukwazi ukwenza imisebenzi. Mababahlawulwe imali efanelekileyo abasebenzi babo. Ngaloo ndlela uqoqosho luya kukwazi ukuba lungaphucuka. Bayabona ukuba indodla enikwa abantwana ngurhulumente noko ibe nefuthe kuqoqosho.

Nivile ukuba ushishino lwabathengisa ngemiyingana, oo-Sales House noo- Woolworths, iivenkile zabo, bazuzile kakhulu, iziswana zibomvana. Kodwa bayakhongozela, besithi abayazi ukuba imali engaka ivela phi.

Siyacela ke ukuba bathethe nabantakwabo, bona abaphethe iinkampani nabanye babo bahleli koomaBhrithane, koomaMelika nakulo lonke eli. Ezinye iimali zabo zivalelwe e-Switzerland. Mabakhuphe imali babhatale abasebenzi ngendlela efanelekileyo. Mabadale imisebenzi baxhase nemizamo yabantu. Ngaloo ndlela uqoqosho noko luya kutsho lushukume. Siyabulela. [Uwele- wele.] [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)

[I do not understand the purpose of some of the issues that have been presented during this debate because we as the ANC and the government do acknowledge the efforts. Yesterday, the Minister of Finance said that we must devise a strategic plan that will limit people’s dependency on government grants. We accepted that.

The economy needs to be developed. Their brothers are holding economic growth back. They have run away with the money of which a part is hidden and the other is invested offshore. They cannot even give salaries to employees. They have huge bank accounts. We must strategise around that. Other sums of money are invested in pension funds. Their revenue amounts to billions of rands.

The money must be redirected and be used effectively. Employees must be paid reasonable wages. In this way the economy can be developed. They can see that the social grant given to children has its positive impact on the economy.

The credit chain stores, such as Sales House and Woolworths have made tremendous profit and they are rich without knowing where the sums of money are coming from.

We ask them to talk to their capitalist friends who own companies and those who live in Britain, America and all over the world. Some of their money is invested in Switzerland. They must give employees what is theirs. They must create employment and help people in their efforts. In that way the economy can develop. We thank you. [Applause.]]

Debate concluded.

The House adjourned at 18:54. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS



                     Wednesday, 27 October 2004

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly

1. Referral to Committees of papers tabled

 In terms of the resolution of the National Assembly on 19 October 2004,
 the Report and Financial Statements of the Office of the Auditor-
 General for 2003-2004, tabled on 29 September 2004, has been referred
 to an ad hoc committee of the House.

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister for Provincial and Local Government

 South African Export Statistics for Conventional Arms for 2003.

1. The Minister of Trade and Industry

 Report and Financial Statements of the Technology and Human Resources
 for Industry Programme (THRIP) for 2003-2004, including the Report of
 the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2003-2004.

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Assembly

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Minerals and Energy on the National Energy Regulator Bill [B 9B - 2004] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 27 October 2004:

   The Portfolio Committee on Minerals and Energy, having considered the National Energy Regulator Bill [B 9B - 2004] (National Assembly - sec 75) and proposed amendments of the National Council of Provinces (Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, 14 October 2004, p 868, referred to the Committee, reports the Bill with amendments [B 9C - 2004].

 Report to be considered.

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the Protocol of the Court of Justice of the African Union, dated 26 October 2004:

   The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Protocol of the Court of Justice of the African Union (the Protocol), referred to it, and having noted that -

   1. in terms of Article 19 of the Protocol, the jurisdiction of the Court of Justice shall extend to all disputes and applications referred to it in accordance with the Constitutive Act of the African Union and the Protocol which relate to, amongst others, the interpretation, application or validity of Union Treaties and all subsidiary legal instruments adopted within the framework of the Union, any question of international law and all acts, decisions, regulations and directives of the organs of the Union;

   2. the jurisdiction of the African Court on Human and Peoples’ Rights, when established in terms of Article 1 of the Protocol on the Establishment of the African Court on Human and Peoples’ Rights, shall in terms of Article 3(1) of that Protocol extend to all cases and disputes submitted to it concerning the interpretation and application of the African Charter, that Protocol and any other relevant human rights instrument ratified by the States concerned;

   3. in terms of Article 19 of the Protocol, the Court of Justice may have jurisdiction over human rights matters arising from sources referred to in that Article, and this will overlap with the jurisdiction of the Human Rights Court and may give rise to concurrent jurisdiction on disputes pertaining to human rights matters, unless the Court of Justice itself excludes jurisdiction;

   4. the Court of Justice may not hear appeals from the African Court on Human and Peoples’ Rights and the African Court on Human and Peoples’ Rights may not hear appeals from the Court of Justice,

   recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Protocol.

   The Committee further recommends that, should the Executive consider permitting third parties to submit cases before the Court of Justice in terms of Article 18(1)(d), a prior request be tabled in Parliament for approval.

 Request to be considered.