TUESDAY, 29 JUNE 2004 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
                                ____

The Council met at 10:03.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

CONGRATULATIONS TO SAPS IN LIMPOPO ON SERVICE AWARD FOR MOBILE COMMUNITY SERVICE CENTRE

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr D J BOTHA: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) congratulates the SA Police Service in Limpopo on receiving the United Nations Public Service Award for the mobile community service centre;

(2) notes that this award was received by Limpopo’s Commissioner Calvin Sengani on behalf of the SAPS in Limpopo at the United Nations Headquarters in New York;

(3) believes that this was made possible because of the dedication and commitment by all the police officers in the province; and

(4) wishes them well in their future engagement with our communities.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL
                           (Policy Debate)

Vote No 21 - Correctional Services; Vote No 22 - Defence; Vote No 24 - Justice and Constitutional Development; Vote No 25 - Safety and Security:

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: May I take this opportunity to welcome the hon Minister and Deputy Ministers present here this morning, and thank you for coming. I also welcome the hon Minister Ngconde Balfour who has moved from Sport to Correctional Services. [Laughter.] We want to invite you to address the National Council of Provinces.

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you very much, Chairperson. The Commissioner of Correctional Services is very strict about what I am called. He insists that I only be called the Minister of Correctional Services. There should be no reference to my previous life. [Laughter.] I agree with the commissioner. [Interjections.] It is very sporting of me. [Laughter.]

Chairperson, Cabinet colleagues, hon members, MECs and members of provincial legislatures, Chairperson of the National Council for Correctional Services Judge Desai, Inspecting Judge Fagan - they are all there in the gallery - stakeholders and community representatives, in addressing you this morning I want to put into context the serious incidents that occurred at three of our correctional centres in Mpumalanga and Gauteng during the past four days.

Members of Correctional Services, aligned to some unions, engaged in illegal strike action at the Barberton and Nelspruit Correctional Centres. Despite Correctional Services being designated an essential service in terms of section 71(8) of the Labour Relations Act of 1995, members engaged in irresponsible and illegal actions that had the potential of putting the safety and security of the public at risk. At Barberton this resulted in inmates not being provided with meals for more than 24 hours, while at Nelspruit 800 awaiting-trial detainees broke out of their cells by forcing the doors after they realised that members of staff were not on duty.

It was only the quick action by management and nonstriking members that prevented a mass breakout at Nelspruit. While waiting for reinforcements from the SAPS and from the SA National Defence Force, seven dedicated and loyal members at Nelspruit stood between the inmates and possible escapes. Firing five warning shots, these committed men contained the situation and, with the assistance of reinforcements, they succeeded in getting all inmates back into their cells, thus preventing any escapes. They put themselves at risk of being overpowered, but were very true to their mandate of the ideal correctional official. At Barberton, 36 members took it upon themselves to maintain order and control, despite irresponsible actions by others. Those members remained on duty for more than 29 hours without any consideration for their own lives before being relieved by support staff.

When reinforcement staff came from Gauteng and KwaZulu-Natal, they arrived at Barberton and were confronted by illegal strikers who wanted to block their path to duty. Undaunted by this, these committed men responded by singing a song that included the words: ``Mti and Balfour, send us anywhere and anytime; we will work for you.’’ [Applause.]

That had the desired effect, and I can report to hon members today that stability has been restored at Barberton and Nelspruit which I personally visited yesterday, while at the Devon Correctional Centre in Gauteng nonstriking members continued to be in charge of the situation.

It is on behalf of these committed men and women that I stand before you today. They are the true deliverers of a better life for all our people. It is they who remain true to the spirit of Batho Pele and its principles, and it is for them that the Deputy Minister, the Commissioner of Correctional Services and I will continue to strive for better working conditions.

It is also true that at Correctional Services we are faced with many challenges relating to remuneration and service conditions. Our members work under stressful conditions, given the nature of their work. Those at the coalface of security, correction and care within our facilities are potentially exposed to risk, as I have illustrated to you today. I will soon be making a presentation to Cabinet, dealing with the remuneration and service conditions of all our members. This will include addressing critical shortages of professional staff as we fail to attract and retain much-needed professionals simply because we offer noncompetitive and unattractive remuneration packages.

The matter of overtime remuneration is also being tackled as a priority. A task team, involving the Department of Correctional Services, the Department of the Public Service and Administration and the National Treasury, has already completed research and submitted recommendations on how the weekly establishment of the department could be structured to ensure efficient delivery of services.

I have developed an appreciation for the concerns of members relating to parity in salaries, medical aid contributions and benefits, and other issues such as career advancement and work conditions. These are, after all, matters pertinent to contributing towards pride in the workplace. However, as a country, we cannot tolerate irresponsible actions as have happened in the past few days.

Those who have made themselves guilty of indiscipline, illegal action and the disruption of essential services will have to bear the consequences. Their actions are unjustified and reprehensible and have put the lives of others and the public of both Barberton and Nelspruit at risk. Unions within the Department of Correctional Services operate within an agreed framework, and I will continue to honour this. I want to repeat that I will continue to honour unions that work within these parameters.

At the same time, where individuals or groups of members of unions act as they did over the past few days, their unions - I am actually appealing to them - must call them to order. If those involved are members of any of the progressive unions that we know of within Correctional Services and within the unions that they claim to be part of, then those unions at the regional level and at the national level have a responsibility to the South African public to ensure compliance with agreements that govern the relationship between themselves and the Department of Correctional Services. The budget of the department for the 2004-05 financial year is R8,4 billion. It will provide for an overall establishment of 35 197 personnel and for the supervision of an average prison population of 187 000 prisoners and 72 000 probationers and parolees. This includes allocations of R2,5 billion for the national office; R1,322 billion for the Gauteng region; R1,1 billion for the Western Cape; R972 million for KwaZulu-Natal; R821 million for the Free State and Northern Cape region; R820 million for the North West/Limpopo/Mpumalanga region and R795,4 million for the Eastern Cape.

Expenditure on compensation of employees is expected to consume an average of 63,9% of the Vote over the medium term, while payment for capital assets, which includes the building of new prisons by the department and all payments to private prison contractors, should consume an average of 14,7%, mainly because of the increased allocation to payments for capitalisation. Included in the budget allocation is compensation of employees’ expenditure, which amounts to R5,36 billion for personnel salaries, allowances and bonuses. Over the medium term this category of expenditure continues to dominate, owing to the personnel-intensive nature of incarceration and rehabilitation, as well as associated overtime expenditure for staffing correctional facilities. An additional allocation of R100 million in 2005-06 will provide staff for new correctional centres and for the related day-to-day operating costs of their activities.

The budget also provides for an amount of R111 million for the purchase of departmental equipment and R1,143 billion for the capital works projects of which R194,731 million provides for the fixed portion of the public private partnerships prisons. This allocation includes new capital projects, maintenance and professional fees.

The total medium-term expenditure framework allocation for capital works projects, with allocations of R914,162 million, R982,950 million and R1,007 billion respectively for the 2004-05 to 2006-07 financial years, provides for the building of four new prisons which will be commissioned in the 2005- 06 financial year. These prisons will be in Gauteng, the Northern Cape and North West.

While Government has made huge strides in the transformation of policing, as well as the prosecutorial and judicial system during the past ten years, we must acknowledge that within Correctional Services, transformation did not always receive the attention that it warranted. Much of our focus was on safe custody. A turnaround on this narrow focus has been started under my predecessor, the hon Mr Ben Skosana and the Commissioner of Correctional Services, Mr Linda Mti. Our strategic plans for 2004 to 2007 will build on this foundation of transforming the department and the correctional system. At Correctional Services we are committed to playing our part in furthering integrated governance within the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security Cluster. Our programmes will be consistently aimed at contributing towards delivery on the security priorities, as outlined in the President’s state of the nation address. Central to this is effective correction, focused rehabilitation and the social reintegration of offenders into their communities.

A draft White Paper on Corrections has been approved by Cabinet, and a joint task team with Treasury has also finalised the costing of the White Paper’s implementation plan. This will be presented to Cabinet and, upon approval by Cabinet, a policy conference will be held in the latter part of the year to align existing policies with it. The White Paper is aimed at steering the transformation of the correctional system and delivery on rehabilitation. Over the next decade, we will pursue a new direction in correctional management, and the department will contribute fully to the drive towards the attainment of social crime prevention and effective integrated criminal justice in the country.

The imperatives from which we derive our mandate at Correctional Services - that include the Constitution, the white Paper, the Correctional Services Act 111 of 1998, its regulations, policies and procedures - create the space for concentrated delivery. We have opted to develop best practice in the implementation of the White Paper through establishing centres of excellence in each region. In these centres we will be able to put into practice the needs-based corrections, development and care programmes that are implicit in the White Paper. A total of 36 centres of excellence will be put in place. Already 23 sites have been identified, with the regional breakdown being four for the Western Cape, three for the Eastern Cape, three for KwaZulu-Natal, three for Free State and Northern Cape, five for Gauteng, five for Mpumalanga, Limpopo and North West.

The White Paper calls for a profound commitment by South Africans to create the conditions in which the correctional system is solely charged with the care and correction of those who require focused attention of professional correctional officials and those who require to be corrected outside of the mainstream of society. Crime prevention and rehabilitation require a social compact between government and civil society and, as such, I believe that we need to mobilise our communities around issues of social cohesion, social justice, moral regeneration, ethical values and socio-economic development.

Correction is indeed not merely a mandate of the department responsible for running the correctional centres and community corrections offices. Correction is a societal responsibility of all institutions and individuals. As Government, we believe that correction - both self- correction and correction of others - is inherent in good citizenship. Correctional Services is tasked to place rehabilitation at the centre of all of its activities. However, the challenge of social reintegration of offenders into their families and communities is not achievable without partnerships.

The Justice, Crime Prevention and Security Cluster has taken the lead in forging partnerships and the high degree of co-ordination and co-operation within the cluster must be extended to provinces and local government structures. It is crucial for Correctional Services that we forge similar partnerships and levels of co-ordination and integration with provincial departments responsible for safety and security, social development and health. Currently, we participate in justice and safety forums at provincial and local government level where issues such as information sharing, overcrowding, awaiting trial detainees alternative sentencing are addressed. I want to emphasise that they are not awaiting trial prisoners. A prisoner is a sentenced detainee. If you are not sentenced, you are a detainee.

Of major concern is the increasing number of young people who commit crimes. More than 73 000 young people in the prime of their lives are in our facilities, with 26 781 between the ages of 18 and 25 years being awaiting trial detainees. Some may indeed be there due to the lack of alternative facilities for children awaiting trial. Others are there because they have been charged with and sentenced for serious crimes that include murder, rape and drug abuse. This has increased the responsibilities on Correctional Services, as well as the Department of Social Development which has a significant role to play in providing for the care of children in distress. Provincial Social Development Departments will increasingly have to manage places of safety for young offenders as an alternative to being placed in correctional centres.

The provision of health services for inmates is also growing in importance. Most provincial departments are diverting their responsibilities relating to health to Correctional Services. We enter into service level agreements with provinces for the provision of health services for which we have to pay without any concomitant increase in our budget. Add to this our difficulty in attracting and retaining health professionals and you will begin to appreciate the need for greater integration between the three tiers of government if we want to remain true to our mandate of service delivery to all our people.

I will be embarking on road shows in the provinces to meet political leaders and to give effect to community outreach programmes of Correctional Services. I am calling on the support of Premiers and MECs in this regard, and I do want to invite members of the NCOP to join us in September when we reach out to communities throughout the country. We will launch a project, ``Correction as a Societal Responsibility’’ that will culminate in community activities at Drakenstein Correctional Centre in the Western Cape on Heritage Day. I do realise that communities are angry with inmates who are often perceived as being contemptuous of the rule of law.

It remains our responsibility at Correctional Services, and as national and provincial political leaders, to convince the public that correction and rehabilitation do not translate into soft peddling on crime. We need to convince our constituents that correction and rehabilitation are aimed at ensuring the safety and security of the public. They must understand that we cannot release into society angry young people who have had no benefit of correction and rehabilitation. If we want to continue to do that, it will be at the risk of increasing levels of repeat offending. I would like to extend a hand to communities to assist me in ensuring that intervention and rehabilitation programmes become compulsory for all young offenders. We cannot leave them at the mercy of the masters of crime who operate within our correctional centres all over the country. We cannot leave them to gangs because if we do, the gangs will take them up and they will be members of those gangs.

We call on hon members here to join us as we strive to ensure that our resources are prioritised towards the correction and development of the youth, particularly first offenders. It is the youth to whom we have the highest moral obligation to correct their offending behaviour and to steer them away from the influence and control of habitual criminals.

We also need to increasingly encourage the use of appropriate alternative sentencing options within the criminal justice system. The department must enhance service delivery to parolees and probationers in order to prevent repeat offending which has an impact on expenditure. Within our budget, provision has been made for constituting and implementing Remission and Parole Boards, and it is envisaged that recruitment of staff for parole boards will start next month, while training will follow in August.

As we proceed with the transformation of the correctional system, we need the criminal justice system to be responsive to greater capacity for rehabilitation and correction that will emerge within the department. This must inform the approach that we develop to sentencing and to releasing offenders on parole, both of whom must be focused on furthering the correction of the offending behaviour of the sentenced offender.

It is true that there are members of the Department of Correctional Services who do not see themselves as service providers, as evidenced by the legal actions at Barberton and Nelspruit. The transformation of the department must entail addressing improved service delivery by our officials who must fully understand that their function is to provide services to offenders, their families and friends. We therefore need committed frontline workers such as those who I alluded to earlier and we must demonstrate appreciation when they go beyond the reasonable call of duty. Consideration is being given to implementing service delivery excellence awards nationally through which members would be judged by their peers and honoured accordingly.

Cabinet has also endorsed the introduction of a departmental corporate identity that enables all members to identify themselves with the Department of Correctional Services. Through this, members also have some indication of respective positions within the department. Uniform and insignia are a reflection of mutual respect that is expected from our members. I am very proud of that uniform. When they sit there wearing that uniform, I am proud of all of them, starting with the Commissioner. [Applause.] I will be wearing mine within no time - they are still taking some sizes. [Laughter.] So you will see me coming here wearing my cap and everything and you will know that I am the First correctional official.

We are committed to instilling in the Department of Correctional Services a strong sense of personal and organisational discipline. Communities will never respect us as long as we engage in activities that are in conflict with the best interests of the people that we claim to serve.

We must dispel the public perception that we are an organisation that is riddled with corruption and maladministration. In order to do this, we must start dealing effectively and expeditiously with corruption. I am committed to supporting the work of the Jali Commission. We have already benefited from the 11 Interim Reports of the Jali Commission and the investigations of the Special Investigative Unit. Culprits will be prosecuted and they need to know that they will no longer be able to exploit weaknesses within internal disciplinary procedures. Later this morning, I will take delivery from the UN Office on Drugs and Crime an assessment of anti-corruption capacity within the department which that office has completed. This important study will assist us in shifting the focus to prevention of corruption and in this way undermine the inherent tendency towards corruption.

Our Disciplinary Code and Procedure has been exploited by corrupt members, and I am currently studying a proposed revised Disciplinary Code and Procedure that would, hopefully, contribute to dealing with the menace of corruption.

I would like to acknowledge, in conclusion, the presence of the Chairperson of the National Council for Correctional Services, Judge Desai; the Inspecting Judge, Judge Fagan; the Chairperson of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, Kgoshi Mokoena and invite them, together with all hon members in this House, to join us in ensuring that the department lives up to its mission of placing rehabilitation at the centre of all our activities.

I would also like to invite members to hold us accountable to our commitment to a cleansed, trained and dedicated management; sound working relationships between managers and personnel in order to deliver on rehabilitation; seeking improved working conditions for our members; the delivery of our core services and enhanced corruption prevention capacity.

The planned HIV/Aids Prevalence and Attitude Survey is a key priority for us. Currently, we are not accredited to dispense anti-retroviral therapy, and patients who qualify for such treatment are referred to accredited sites of the Department of Health.

With regard to our development programme, we will concentrate resources on literacy, education, skills development, recreation and sport as part of the rehabilitation process. The priority areas in relation to security are to ensure that the escape trend moves downwards, and that the safety of offenders is improved, in particular through an anti-rape strategy within our facilities.

We accept that Correctional Services is in need of a major shake-up and want to report that it has begun. The prisoners at Barberton told me yesterday that there was one warder who treats them like dirt and makes them want to break out of their cells, who actually told them the other day that they can break out whilst they are busy toyi-toying. They told me that they do not want that warder there. I gave the order that he should be fired immediately. He cannot take the case to the labour courts. Mr De Lange, you know the jargon. I am not a lawyer. I am a politician. I will fire the man. Let him go through the processes. He can litigate until the cows come home, but he will be out of my department. Please, members of this House, the lawyers are there to mop up'' after us. It is their duty. We sent them to school to do that. We are not in the business of mopping up’’. That is what they are there for. Are you standing by me, Mr De Lange?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Yes!

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you.

Please, do join us as we venture on a journey that should change the face of correctional services in this country. I went there and saw what was going on. I reported to my President last night because the members of the public in Barberton and Nelspruit were scared of what was going on there. I said to the President, please do me one favour, chief, just back me because I’m going to fire them. I have a list of their names and I am just waiting for the final report. I am going to fire them, end of story. We will talk about litigation later. For now, I must get them out of my system. They are not supposed to be there if they cannot do the simplest, simplest things.

We expect hurdles along the way, even major ones. We expect disruptive elements to continue testing the limits of our patience. Yes, we can possibly even predict that we will be confronted with more Nelspruits and Barbertons. This might cause a slight slowing down of the journey along the way, but no diversions will be taken. We will have to engage all gears. If we have to put this truck into reverse, we will engage the reserve gear; if we have to jump from first gear to fifth gear, we will do so. All I want is to get that truck moving and the bad apples'' falling out of it. I again invite all stakeholders, including the progressive unions’’ - which I support - to help us in eliminating the ``bad apples’’ within the department. I will closely work with them in dealing with all issues. There is a departmental bargaining council. I will ensure that our members get the remuneration they deserve. I will not tolerate the disruption of services within my prisons, not at all. I am asking members to assist me in that regard. I want to assure the people of Nelspruit and Barberton that after I came out of there last night at 21:30, I felt that everything was under control. I would like to get a big applause from this House for our reaction units that came from all over the country to help us. [Applause.] They are wonderful. They restored stability, and everything is now running smoothly in those prisons.

Hon members, thank you very much for listening to us, and I hope that you will assist us in the journey that lies ahead. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister and hon members, may I start by apologising on behalf of the Minister of Defence who left yesterday for Addis Ababa to attend the African Union defence Ministers’ meeting where the non- aggression and common defence pacts are going to be discussed and finalised. The Minister has been part of these discussions on these topics in the structures of both SADC and the AU. His presence was highly needed and he had to attend this meeting. I hope the apology is accepted.

In celebrating 10 years of democracy, we are also celebrating 10 years of the creation of the SA National Defence Force. These 10 years have seen seven different military formations integrated into the SANDF. South Africa’s military doctrine changed from an offensive to a defensive posture, and defence policies were shaped through a widely consultative process.

When Parliament resolved in 1994 that the SANDF should be called into being and simultaneously set out defence policies in the White Paper and the Defence Review, it would have been difficult for us to foresee the very intense and broad involvement of the SANDF in the stabilisation of our subcontinent and continent. Most debates at that time, even around the strategic defence packages, were about why we needed to equip the SANDF when there were no enemies about to attack us.

Very few people could have predicted the vital role the SANDF would play in peace-support operations in the continent of Africa, and in providing support in securing free and fair elections in our country. With hindsight, we are now in a position to know that our nation was wise to have taken the decisions it did. The SANDF has been the pivotal instrument of stability in Africa south of the Sahara. The peacekeeping mission in Burundi is a shining example.

A defence force engaged in protecting the country’s territorial integrity and its citizens, and a defence force that is involved in peacekeeping missions - not in the destabilisation of its neighbours - operates differently from a defence force at war with its own people and neighbours. Its actions are premised on assisting key role-players move out of a conflict situation, as the case has been in Burundi and the Democratic Republic of Congo.

The African mission in Amib, Burundi, has become a United Nations mission whose mandate it is to support Burundi’s efforts to re-establish sustainable peace. This is due to the pioneering role of the SANDF, and later collaboration with Mozambique and Ethiopia, thus creating conditions for the UN to take over. As we know, there are currently difficulties in the DRC. However, our troops are there as part of the UN force to help the DRC move out of a conflict situation. That is the defence force that we have built today - a force for peace and sustainable development.

However, the world has changed since 1994, and whilst we still cannot identify any serious threats to our territorial sovereignty, we still face the demons of poverty and hunger. These remain the biggest threats to our security and stability as a nation. The political imperatives that guided us in 1994 have altered. Our strategies, training and modus operandi must be adjusted and fine-tuned to align ourselves with our role on the African continent.

In 1994 we resolved that our posture would be a defensive one, and we started the transformation of the defence function in that direction. Ten years down the line the White Paper on Defence and the Defence Review will now be reviewed. To date, these two fundamental documents have guided the transformation of the defence function. The foundation on which they were based remains sound, but there are certain aspects that need to be revisited and adjusted.

We aim to complete the review of the White Paper on Defence and Defence Review by the end of this year. This is a crucial exercise that will drive and set in motion the last phase of transformation of the Department of Defence. At the core of the transformation of the defence function is the Defence Secretariat. Located within the department, it is responsible for the formulation of all aspects of defence policy, the proper accounting for defence expenditure and providing a crucial resource for the Minister to enable him or her to give political leadership to the defence function.

As the Deputy Minister of Defence, I will drive the completion of the transformation exercise within the Department of Defence. Transformation within the Department of Defence is about overhauling the entire structure, systems and procedures of the department. It is about the revitalisation of the SANDF and all other similar and related aspects. My main focus will be to ensure that the department achieves representivity; develops a reserve force; looks after a proper migration process of the service corps; and transform the veterans’ institutions into viable vehicles for supporting and achieving the goals of the Department of Defence.

The quality of the Department of Defence personnel is central to the operational qualities of the SANDF. Human resources 2010 is a comprehensive strategy that provides direction to the department’s human resource process. It provides the baseline for human resource planning, policies and instructions. It also constitutes a part of the department’s corporate strategy.

The issue of transformation of the reserve force that is central to the concept of a small core force has been on our agenda for too long. Whilst I am proud to announce that our first reserve force detachment has been made available for deployment, much work still needs to be done to build up the reserve force as a whole. Training programmes for the reserve force must be put in place to ensure that it becomes a viable force. There is a lot of work to be done in this area.

A decision was taken some time ago to move the service corps out of the Department of Defence on the basis that it must serve the national good, and not only the members of the SANDF. It may well be housed in another Government department but, hopefully, not Correctional Services. The Department will retain a small directorate to help with the redeployment and to assist members leaving the department to acquire much-needed skills. This work will include helping them to enter other existing institutions for training in different fields.

Linked to, but distinct from the above, is the issue of veterans. A veterans’ directorate was set up in the Defence Secretariat some years ago. Legislation has been enacted in this regard. But, the numerous concerns of our veterans are not being adequately addressed. One of the major problems is that we do not have an adequate profile of our veterans, whether it be in terms of age, educational qualifications, skills base, geographical locations, access to housing and health facilities, or even the number of dependants.

Moreover, veterans’ issues are handled across the Department of Defence. As a result, work is fragmented. Pensions are handled in one section of the Department of Defence, war graves in another, and liaison with veterans’ associations in yet another. The reality is that many of our veterans, especially those from the previously non-statutory forces, are living in squatter camps without proper medical care.

We have succeeded in pulling together the various different veterans’ associations into one body. We must now see to it that the basic social needs of all veterans are met. It would be wrong to allow a social situation to be perpetuated where there is no parity between veterans from the statutory and the nonstatutory forces. At present, we are looking at ways of beefing up the veterans’ directorate to address this crucial problem.

We will be paying special attention to these areas in order to ensure that the goal of the DOD, being broadly representative of all South Africa’s citizens at all levels and in all occupational classes and mustering, is achieved. The other issue to which we will be paying close attention is that of training. Human Resources 2010 states that:

The DOD has not yet attained the position where personnel’s learning pathways are structured and developed in tandem with their career pathways. This results in inefficiency and contributes to low morale.

To correct this requires a close examination of our training institutions, as well as the content of our training programmes. Our training policy must be aligned and adjusted to meet the growing requirements of our peacekeeping role. These requirements must be drawn from our collective experiences in the field and we will be looking at ways of upgrading our training in this regard. Peacekeeping training is quite different from training for conventional war. Both have to be carried out.

The transformation of the military justice system is at present under the microscope. A Ministerial task team has been set up to evaluate the workings of this system with a view to effecting improvements. In line with the Cabinet lekgotla decision, the Foreign Military Assistance Act needs to be reviewed in order to tighten up legislation relating to involvement in dubious foreign military activities. The area of defence procurement has been the subject of much debate in recent times. The department has adopted all the recommendations of the joint investigation into the strategic defence packages, but we are taking other measures in addition to those recommended by the Auditor-General, the Public Protector and the National Prosecuting Authority.

Firstly, we will complete the transformation of Armscor during this period. Its primary role and responsibility as a procurement agency must be vividly distinct from Denel, the manufacturing arm of the state sector. Any blurring of the functions between these two entities will be eliminated. The Minister had preliminary discussions with the Minister of Public Enterprises under whom Denel falls. They are in agreement that there must be close co-ordination between our two departments.

We will also review Armscor’s internal administrative and operative activities to see how they match up to the process started by the Cameron Commission. It is important that the whole Armscor family conducts itself to standards of which this country can be proud. We do not subscribe to the perception that the arms industry is one that is shady and riddled with corrupt practices. Democratic South Africa has constantly endeavoured to carry out its defence business transparently and we will be at the forefront of the fight to maintain clean practices in relation to the defence industry at home and abroad.

The White Paper on Defence Related Industries, which outlines policy, needs now to be reviewed. One of the challenges will be to successfully involve and ensure the participation of all the role-players in the industry and civil society, including faith-based organisations. This will result in a comprehensive rather than a fragmented approach. We must guarantee ongoing work in research and development without which we will not be able to maintain our leading position in this sphere. Our approach must be informed by the need to increase our greater collaboration among the nations of the South.

Our role in peacekeeping has itself been a learning process. The recommendations made by Brahimi on behalf of the United Nations still have to be implemented and tested against our experience. It is important now for us to widen our vision of what peacekeeping actually involves. This we can do on the basis of our experiences in Lesotho, DRC, Burundi, Ethiopia and Eritrea. Without wanting to detract from academic analysis, our own experiences in Burundi and the DRC, and in a limited way in Ethiopia and Eritrea, emphasise that we have to be much more sensitive to a case-by-case analysis of each situation. The tactics of peacekeeping and peace enforcement have to be developed on the ground. We have now the actual accumulated experience from which we can draw up our recommendations and proposals. Training for peacekeeping can now be based on our lived experience. What is more, we are now in the fortunate position of being part of an international network whose purpose is to share experiences and exchange ideas. This interaction between officers and troops from within the continent and beyond is part of our adjustment to and participation in the global environment.

One of the lessons we have learnt in Burundi is that it is not sufficient to bring combatants into a cantonment area to disarm and register them. Beyond that they have to see a future for themselves wherein they can maintain their families and be part of the development and construction of a peaceful society. They have to have somewhere to go and something to do after they lay down their arms. We refer to this as sustainable peacekeeping. Sustainable peacekeeping must be driven by the host government, who must take the lead within a conglomerate of local NGOs and international development organisations. The dynamic interaction between the political and the military processes is therefore ongoing.

By adopting an approach which emphasises the creation of conditions conducive to the signing of peace agreements, we have shown that conditions for peace can be created. In certain conditions there is a process that must precede the implementation of Chapter 6 of the United Nations’ Charter. Furthermore, the genocide experience in Rwanda and present developments in the DRC further underline the need to review the United Nations system in peace support operations. Surely the concept of human security would seem to dictate that the United Nations peace support forces must be so mandated as to be able to intervene in the face of threat or danger to civilian life in their presence. To mandate neutrality in such circumstances will make humankind an accomplice in human tragedy, similar to the Rwandan genocide, by omission or neglect of duty. In the aftermath of the Rwandan genocide and the lessons of hindsight, humankind must rise to the responsibilities of our time. Through political partnership within our own region, on our continent and even beyond, with developing countries of the South, we must develop a common view and approach in order to meet the requirements and provide the resources to manage conflict. The creation of the African Union and its substructures places a heavy burden of responsibility on the security organs of our country, not least the Department of Defence, which is playing an important role in the design and architecture of the Africa Standby Force.

The African Union Common Defence and Security Policy is key to the successful functioning of the Peace and Security Council of the African Union. This will be formulated through a consultative process among the defence formations on the continent. It must relate to the specific conditions we face, because the causes for conflict on our continent are complex. In many cases they are structural and stem from social and economic deprivation. They also include agents and interests originating outside our continent.

From August this year, South Africa will be chairing the South African Development Community, SADC, organ on Peace and Security. We hope to bring together the defence collective of our region to establish sound structures from which we can operate. Our collective experiences must be pooled to further stabilise our region and protect it from internal conflict and ensuing disarray. We will continue our efforts of assisting in the reconstruction and demining of Angola, in postconflict processes in the Sudan and our involvement in other similar initiatives. I also wish to report to you that the United Nations mission in the DRC has requested South Africa to avail more troops for maintaining peace in the DRC. That is the level of confidence shown in our forces. We are confident that the Department of Defence will rise to this challenge. I thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, hon Deputy Ministers and members, distinguished guests, comrades and friends, please allow me on this occasion to express my delight and honour in taking part in this Budget Vote debate, my first in the NCOP as a Deputy Minister. I also want to use this opportunity to apologise for the absence of our Minister, Ms Brigitte Mabandla, who only arrived back in the country this morning.

Let me start with big congratulations to hon Kgoshi Mokoena on being reappointed as the chairperson of our select committee. We are truly blessed to have a person of his stature and calibre to chair our committee. I want to state unequivocally that we look forward to working very closely with him and his committee in achieving all the goals that this House would want to, particularly in terms of the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development. We want to recommit ourselves - I do so on behalf of my director-general who is here, Adv Vusi Pikoli - that we will do everything we can to capacitate this House to fulfil all its functions in relation to our department.

I also want to say a special congratulations to all other persons in the House who have been appointed to leadership positions, particularly yourself, Chairperson, and the Deputy Chair and, again, we wish you well and we will do everything we can to assist you in your task in performing your functions here.

This Budget Vote takes place against the background of 10 years of transformation of the justice system in a democratic South Africa. Ten years ago we took the first tentative steps on our journey to a transformed justice system for all, by merging 11 different justice departments, which included those from the former Bantustans, into one national department. Those first small and tentative steps in the journey were significant in charting a path towards a fair, impartial, effective and accessible justice system geared towards the needs of all South Africans, irrespective of their backgrounds.

Let me remind all of us present here today that the Government’s role is to serve the needs and aspirations of all our people to the best of its ability and, in doing so, to use the resources entrusted to us by the people in the wisest and most responsible way possible. It is therefore imperative for us to take measures that would have a positive effect on the lives of our people and the country.

Increasing capacity among the department’s personnel in order to improve service delivery excellence in line with the principles of Batho Pele; extending access to justice to all, including to those in the poorest and most remote areas; re-engineering the maintenance system and optimising other measures meant to alleviate the plight of the poor, the marginalised and the disadvantaged amongst us; reducing case backlogs and improving court efficiency; and transforming all our institutions, systems and procedures administering justice are all part and parcel of this basic principle which we have embraced.

Key to the Government’s Programme of Action, as outlined in the President’s state of the nation address, is also the duty to improve the safety and security of all our citizens and communities. For my department, this duty is deeply rooted in the provision of improved access to quality, swift and visible justice through the transformation of our institutions and systems administering justice. We remain committed to these principles.

In my address I will therefore give feedback on some of the notable achievements of the department in the past years and some initiatives in the present, which are of a crosscutting nature and which have a provincial flavor. I do so particularly in the context of not trying to repeat things that we have said in the National Assembly.

I want to deal, firstly, with the Re Aga Boswa Project. Because our court system is the core business of the department and the first point of contact with the public, massive resources and effort have accordingly gone into transforming our court systems and processes. Our aim is to ensure that our courts are operating properly and therefore enable the judiciary and the prosecution to perform their duties optimally.

Maybe I should digress here for just a minute. You know, one often finds in the newspapers that something happens somewhere and we then have to read - and we have read recently again - that somehow the justice system is falling apart. I want to assure this House - and I think this is something we should remind ourselves of - that every single day of our lives, thousands of officials of the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development go to work and make these courts and structures work.

Ninety-five percent of those structures work effectively every single day, of course, admittedly, to varying degrees, but the people are there and they work. A mere problem in one of these structures at any given time does not mean that the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development, or anything else, is collapsing. This is something, I think, we should remind ourselves of.

Through the Re Aga Boswa project, processes at the Court Services’ Unit and at court level are being re-engineered to streamline organisational and management structures. The Re Aga Boswa project is premised on a decentralised court service delivery model, which ensures the devolution of decision-making powers to competent and capable court managers for effectiveness and efficiency in the court system. The benefit impact of the decentralised model is a reduction in the turnaround time in administrative decisions, thereby leading to reduced case backlogs and case cycle times, disciplined staff and the optimal utilisation and management of resources.

The preliminary results of the KwaZulu-Natal pilot project are indeed encouraging, and once the model’s best practices have been analysed, assessed and refined, we will be rolling it out to other parts of the country. Critical resources currently located at regional offices will therefore be redeployed to the courts directly. The KwaZulu-Natal model will also assist in determining the cost implication of the roll-out of the model to other provinces.

Secondly, I want to deal with the establishment of the Integrated Justice System Co-ordinating Committees. The department is an active participant in the justice, crime prevention and security Cabinet cluster, as well as the social Cabinet cluster. This is in recognition of the fact that to have a positive effect on the lives of all our people, we need to integrate all the services of the various departments within the criminal justice system. All our department’s activities are therefore in line with the priorities of these clusters.

The JCPS development committee recently carried out a national survey among related stakeholders to validate the establishment and to structure and define the terms of reference of interdepartmental committees at provincial, area and local levels. These committees are intended to promote co-operation and co-ordination between the cluster departments and to facilitate and support the implementation of initiatives to improve the effectiveness and efficiency of the integrated justice system.

The survey brought to light that, although numerous and divergent forums currently exist between these departments and related stakeholders, some are operating effectively, others less so. Comprehensive terms of reference for the establishment of IJS Co-ordinating Committees at the various levels have therefore been developed. Work sessions with provinces to discuss the establishment of such committees are now in the planning phase and will commence in the latter part of the year. In the meantime, existing co- operation structures are being utilised to deal with both operational and strategic crosscutting issues.

My third focus is on the rationalisation of the High Courts. We are progressing towards getting rid of a fragmented court system and have established, as policy, that no new courts should be established outside the existing court structure.

After a long consultation process with the relevant stakeholders, including the judiciary, with regard to the rationalisation of the High Courts, the Superior Courts Bill and the Constitutional Amendment Bill were tabled before the Portfolio Committee on Justice. As you would know, the names, the seats and the jurisdictions of the High Courts are still reflective of the apartheid state and the Bantustans.

The Superior Courts Bill is intended to rectify these discrepancies and legacies we inherited by rationalising the former Supreme Court of South Africa and the High Courts of the former TBVC states. It also deals with the integration of the labour court and labour appeal court into the High Court system. This rationalisation will bring the court structure in line with our post-1994 dispensation. The department has already included in its major capital works projects for next year a High Court building for both the Limpopo and Mpumalanga provinces. Hopefully the Bill will be passed by Parliament this year still.

The fourth area I will deal with is the redemarcation of regional courts and magisterial districts. Discussions with regional court presidents and with intersectoral representatives on the matter of the redemarcation of district court jurisdictions have also been concluded. Following this, regional court jurisdictions have been aligned with provincial boundaries and, as per the proclamations, have been implemented.

However, two districts in the Eastern Cape, namely Umzimkulu and Matatiele, also called Maluti, were included in the area of jurisdiction of the newly created regional division of KwaZulu-Natal. This was being done to align the regional court jurisdictions with that of the Interim High Court jurisdictions. However, I am aware that this has created some problems in that area, at least in some groupings, and we are re-evaluating the issue and speaking to the affected persons. However, this whole issue may have to be reassessed during the process of the Superior Courts Bill’s adoption.

An extensive consultation process involving all stakeholders on the redemarcation of magisterial district boundaries has been carried out at a provincial and area level. Access to courts by all sectors of the population, existing court infrastructure and the need to provide cost- effective court services were the guiding principles in this process. Nine provincial reports have been finalised, and the digital maps depicting all new boundaries and recommended changes are in an advanced stage of completion.

The recommended changes to magisterial boundaries, if compatible with the Superior Courts Bill, will be implemented in a phased manner as funds become available. At the moment the process is largely part of our unfunded mandate. Where a change in a main seat of court has been recommended, a thorough assessment of available facilities will be carried out before any changes are made. An amount of R36 million has been requested from the National Treasury for the implementation of this redemarcation process for the current financial year. Further amounts of R40 million and R44 million have been asked for the subsequent two years to finalise this year’s work.

The fifth area I wish to deal with refers to lay assessors, an issue which features in the media at present, and we would like to say the following about it: As part of the department’s strategic imperative to improve access to justice and increase public participation in the adjudication process, the lay assessor system will be extended to all regional divisions during the next three years. In line with section 180 of the Constitution, the lay assessor system places a strong emphasis on community participation in the workings of the court system.

I see that some imminent experts and scholars have reckoned that this system is unconstitutional. I would remind them that they should go and read section 180 again, and see that we particularly placed that issue in the Constitution to avoid this kind of argument. In 1995 already, an assessors’ co-ordination committee was appointed to oversee pilot projects to increase the use of lay assessors in criminal matters in the magistrates’ courts. As a result of these projects, the committee recommended a suitable legislative framework in order to facilitate the expansion of the lay assessor system. You will recall that this House passed that legislation in 1998 already. However, because of a lack of funds, the system’s implementation process has been slow to date, also in terms of pilot project.

For the full implementation of the project to take place, structures for the governance and co-ordination of lay assessors will need to be established. Other challenges facing this initiative relate to the funds required to compensate the assessors, the office space that will be required at court buildings; the identification of assessors who fit the requirements and the possible delays in the finalisation of cases when assessors do not attend court sessions that the implementation of this assessor system may lead to.

The project manager visited all the pilot sites in the Western Cape and Gauteng during 2003 in order to assess first hand what the challenges are and to plan for further rollout. Regulations relating to the Act have been developed and approved by National Treasury. The concerns of stakeholders, such as Amsa, the NPA and the Law Society, will be taken into account and into consideration before implementation. However, I want to emphasise, the rollout of the project will not be stopped!

Sixthly, I deal with the Legal Aid Board. The issue of the high costs of private legal services is of concern to Government in general, and to us as a department in particular. The cost of litigation means that the rich can freely litigate while the poor, especially in civil cases, cannot enjoy this right. The Legal Aid Board therefore plays an important role in providing legal aid to indigent persons and legal representation as provided by the Constitution, especially to accused persons facing substantial prejudice.

The Legal Aid Board is consolidating the significant progress already made in transforming itself into a stable, efficient, effective and credible organisation by providing legal services throughout the country. This has been largely achieved through the establishment of the 58 justice centres, 27 satellite offices and 13 High Court units.

The Legal Aid Board has also deliberately shifted from the Judicare method of delivery of legal aid services to using public defenders. The Judicare method has proven to be unacceptably expensive and cumbersome to administer, and this is, in fact, a phenomenon worldwide. If you go and study Canada or the USA at the moment, you will see that they are all moving from the Judicare system to a system where they use the kind of services we do now. The Board has therefore continued to reduce its reliance on Judicare, which is now only 18% of the budget, and is increasingly using the services from its justice centres, which now make up 56% of its budget.

A major part of the criticism that was levelled against the Legal Aid Board in the past was the quality of the services provided. However, having moved to the justice centre model, the Legal Aid Board is now able to monitor the performance of its legal practitioners, and is therefore able to identify and respond to the gaps in service delivery. The Legal Aid Board has also initiated a host of training programmes to keep capacitating its staff component.

However, we will have to continue to monitor the system to ensure that the quality of legal services delivered is consistently high. In addition, the department and the Legal Aid Board will also have to look at alternative forms of legal assistance to the poor in place of costly litigation - for example, alternative dispute resolution services may be one of the answers to this problem.

The Legal Aid Board has really drastically improved its services and we owe the former chairperson, Judge Navsa, and the continuing good work of the present chairperson, Judge Mlambo, the CEO and the board appreciation for this.

The seventh area I want to address is the issue of the Child Justice Bill. We are committed to strengthening the protection of vulnerable persons in the criminal justice system. As you are aware, the Child Justice Bill is being finalised by the Portfolio Committee on Justice at present. The Department has planned and costed intersectorally for the implementation of the Bill. Work in this regard is continuing and a holistic intersectoral document is being finalised. To drive the process, monthly meetings of the Intersectoral Child Justice Steering Committee, chaired by my department, are held.

In the meantime, interim guidelines for children awaiting trial have been implemented to divert them as much as possible for the mainstream criminal justice system. This is in part intersectoral monitoring and interventions to unblock bottlenecks in areas such as KwaZulu-Natal.

A protocol has also been drafted and implemented regarding children awaiting placement in reform schools. We have further facilitated the establishment of three one-stop child justice centres and mapped out a process for the establishment of one in each province for the next three years after the Child Justice Bill has been passed.

We believe that the approach of planning and budgeting for the Child Justice Bill may serve as a model for every intersectoral piece of legislation that comes before Cabinet and Parliament in future. There are still problems with it, but at least it is a model that tries to address the implementation problems before we put the Bill into operation, and to that extent it does create a model.

Finally, let me deal with multipurpose centres. As already stated, we are committed to strengthening the protection of vulnerable groups, such as women and children, in the criminal justice system. The department, together with other departments, is involved in integrating and increasing the coverage of governmental services. In addition to our efforts around the child justice one-stop centres, we have established the Thuthuzela Care Centres for victims of sexual offences.

The multipurpose centres involve the four core departments within the criminal justice system: Safety and Security, Justice and Constitutional Development, Correctional Services and Social Development, and we have also at times included Health. The multipurpose centres are aimed at bringing services rendered by these departments to communities where these services either do not exist, or do exist but are not easily accessible, especially in rural areas, in an integrated way and under one roof. These centres are currently available in: Thembalethu in George, Nsimbini in KwaZulu-Natal, Leboeng in Limpopo; Khutsong in Gauteng; Tshidilamolomo in North West and Centane in the Eastern Cape. Other centres receiving attention are Thabong in Welkom and Augrabies in Kakamas.

In conclusion, we believe that as we integrate more of our service delivery between major role-players in the criminal justice system, we will be able to leave a larger justice footprint, which will touch more of our people in a positive way.

Let me finally just thank everyone working in the department for the good work done over the past years. I particularly recognise the director- general, Advocate Vusi Pikoli, senior managers in the department, leaders of the judiciary, in particular our Chief Justice, Arthur Chaskalson, and our Deputy Chief Justice, Justice Pius Langa, and all the Judges President, the magistracy, the National Prosecuting Authority and all the institutions linked to the department.

Finally, I just want to say to all the other departments, since filling this position, it is clear to me that there is a great wish to integrate our services, but we still have some way to go, and hopefully we will be able to speed that up in the coming year. Thank you also for all your assistance and hard work. Thank you for listening very attentively. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon members, before I proceed to call the next speaker, I want to take this opportunity to recognise the presence in our mist on the public gallery of Kwevho Community School from Limpopo. You are recognised and welcomed to these law-making Chambers of our country, which is the National Council of Provinces. This is where the laws that are regulating the lives and the relations in our society in this country are made. So, you are welcome. [Applause.]

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Thank you, Chairperson. I apologise for my bedroom voice. I have the the flu.

There shall be equal status in the bodies of the state, in the courts and in the schools, for all national groups and races. All people shall have equal rights to use their own languages and to develop their own folk culture and custom. All national groups shall be protected by law against insults to their race and national pride. All apartheid laws and practices shall be set aside. All laws which discriminate on the grounds of race, colour or belief shall be repealed.

This was said by the People’s Congress in Kliptown on 26 June 1955. There was a time in this country when the term human rights did not have a meaning. Just imagine what it was like to be regarded as a statusless person in your own country. You had to negotiate and justify your status as a South African. We thank our new democratic Government for restoring the dignity of all South Africans. The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving. Let us now look at our justice system. I want to focus my attention on our court services. There is this outcry by members of society in regard to the court case backlog. In any situation, as you all know, there are always two sides to a story. Yes, I agree with those who say the backlog of cases have to be brought under control. More than once I witnessed, in one court in Gauteng, more than eight cases being remanded within 20 minutes. This can be blamed on the lack of capacity of our investigators and prosecutors. However, during the budget briefing, the committee was assured that something is being done to improve the situation. I can only urge the department to try and expedite this process.

On the other hand, the overcrowding and backlog of cases show that many of our people now have confidence in our justice system. People are now reporting cases in large numbers. Our people now do not care much about who presides over their cases. Of course there are still some magistrates who give alarming verdicts, but I know that the department will deal with that issue.

One other challenge is the security in our courts. Something must be done about this. Some ugly incidents are tarnishing the image of our courts. I was comforted to learn that some funds have been set aside to improve security measures in our courts. I will be glad if the hon Minister can say something about this.

There is one issue, I think, which needs special attention. It is that of private security companies. Our security or intelligence structures operate under stringent conditions of law and oversight, but that is not the case with private security companies. I wonder why they are not regulated. They have the capacity to access Government information. Can something be done to curb this anomaly?

The Jali Commission was initiated by this Department of Correctional Services. The department took this route because they wanted to expose, expunge and flush out these unwanted and rotten elements within the department. This has to be said because there are some political piccanins or political opportunists or political imbeciles who believe that the department woke up one day and found the Jali Commission on their doorstep, as if this was forced down their throats unwillingly. This is the baby of this Government and of this department. Well done, hon Ministers.

I would like to thank Commissioner Mthi and his staff for briefing the committee about some of the activities of this commission. Thanks very much, Mr Commissioner. The only appeal I want to make, hon Minister, is for this commission to please round off. How long are they still going to continue? In my opinion, I think they have now overstayed their welcome. My philosophy is that the second track must do what the first one failed to do.

My belief is that rehabilitation can only be effective if it is done in a conducive environment. That can only happen if the department starts upgrading its current facilities and begin to use internal resources to fulfil this function to ensure that there is acquisition of skills while serving sentences and that the skills acquisition is in line with employment opportunities outside prison. It is true that God will never give you a challenge that you cannot handle, but rehabilitation cannot be a responsibility of the department alone. As leaders and communities, let us play our role as well. By the way, we are talking of our own sons and daughters, sisters and brothers, and fathers and mothers. Let us play our role as leaders, as well.

At a glance, I am trying to see if there are any officials from the Department of Safety and Security. I hope that wherever they are, they are following this discussion through their monitors. They will be able to respond this afternoon. If not, it would be a pity. The Department of Safety and Security is faced with the challenge of dealing with organised crime, to combat serious and violent crimes, to reduce incidents of crimes against women and children and the improvement of basic service delivery at police stations, especially through the expansion of sector policing.

Our men and women in blue are expected to handle all these cases. For them to do this effectively, they need our support. Many of them have given their lives to make sure that you and I are safe, but how many of us are making sure that these men and women in blue, our police officers, feel that we appreciate what they are doing? This brings me to an issue I raised three years ago, and that was to improve the working conditions of these police officers and for them to be paid a decent salary. This will go a long way to avoid the temptations of so-called moonlighting. I know the department will do something about this. I have not rented a crowd, but I think that I am doing something here.

In the same debate, three years ago, I requested the department to review the criteria used in promoting these police officers. There are those who have remained in the same rank for the past six years. That is the reason some of them are joining the Metro Police. May I, on their behalf, request that this matter be looked into seriously? I know my magnificent and dynamic department and Ministry will respond positively.

We appreciate what our police officers are doing in the Eastern Cape, tracking down illegal circumcision schools. This is done to save lives, but my problem is the way in which these arrests are dramatised. There are some elements who are going all out to try and ridicule our culture and customs. No true African would smile and celebrate when their noble tradition or culture is undermined or ridiculed. No one is immune to problems. As you are aware, even a lion has to fight off fleas. What is happening, could be described as adjusting one’s underwear in public.

Let us thank our SANDF for doing us proud on the continent, that is, in Burundi, Rwanda, the DRC, etc - as was said by the Deputy Minister. What we have discovered is that our force is more acceptable than all other troops deployed by their countries in the same areas. This is so because our troops know what human rights violations are all about. They know that there are no human rights if it is not based on risk analysis, an early warning system, peacekeeping, peace making, a peace process and prevention.

Hon Minister, the briefing by all departments has helped us to understand what our troops are going through. Your officials were prepared and ready. We thank them for that. To my committee members, I want to thank your provinces for deploying you to this committee. I could not have asked for more. It is in the culture of this committee to work as a unit or a family, regardless of our political backgrounds. Once again, the assembled team is like a well-oiled machine. Thanks to you, hon Ministers, for your co- operation, even from your officials. If there are some misunderstandings, we are able to handle them as leaders and as adults.

In life, as in soccer, you will not go far unless you know where the goal posts are. It therefore makes sense for us to support this Budget Votes. I have spoken. [Applause.]

Mr J W LE ROUX: Deputy Chair, Deputy Ministers and colleagues, when Commissioner Mti addressed our committee, he said that our correctional services are the best in Africa, but that we want to be the best in the world. The DA pledges its full support to achieve this goal.

Die DA bepleit `n stelsel van konstruktiewe gevangenisstraf waar die klem op vaardigheidsontwikkeling, opleiding en die opheffing van die individu val. Die dag wanneer ‘n gevangene vrygelaat word, moet hy ‘n beter mens wees as wat hy was met toelating, én moet hy toegerus wees om ‘n nuwe lewe te kan begin.

Duisende gevangenes kan in die boubedryf baie suksesvol gebruik word. Gedurende die opleidingsproses kan waardevolle infrastruktuur geskep word, en na vrylating is daar geweldige potensiaal vir indiensneming en vir entrepreneurskap.

Daar bestaan geen grondige rede hoekom gevangenes nie ook aangewend kan word om ons geweldige behuisingstekort te help verlig nie. Dieselfde kan ook op landbougebied gebeur. Daar is tans gevangenisse wat baie suksesvol is met die verbouing van groente, vrugte en vleis. Hierdie aktiwiteite moet net drasties uitgebrei word. Na vrylating kan dié persone ook groot suksesse op landbougebied behaal. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[The DA advocates a system of constructive imprisonment which emphasises skills development, training and the upliftment of the individual. When a prisoner is released, he must be a better person than he was upon admission, and he must be equipped to be able to start a new life.

Thousands of prisoners can be used very successfully in the building industry. During the training process valuable infrastructure can be created, and after release there is tremendous potential for employment, as well as free enterprise.

There is no valid reason why prisoners cannot also be utilised to help relieve our tremendous lack of housing. The same also applies to agriculture. There are at present prisons which are very successful with regard to the cultivation of vegetables, fruit and meat. These activities must just be drastically extended. After being released these people can also achieve great success in the field of agriculture.]

Unfortunately, overcrowding and a lack of facilities make it virtually impossible for us to achieve these noble ideals. It is true that we must do everything possible to lower our intake of prisoners, and our philosophy tries to do just that. The fact is, however, that we urgently need more prisons now. Unfortunately, our budget allocation only allows us to build four prisons in the near future. The level of overcrowding is about 60% to 70% and the projections are that this figure will stay the same up to 2007.

If we cannot solve the problem of overcrowding, all our plans to become world leaders will not succeed. The fact that our prisons are crowded with awaiting-trial detainees, and not prisoners, as the Minister said, is unacceptable. It is unfair that the Department of Correctional Services must carry the responsibility that is clearly a structural problem in the legal system. It would help Correctional Services if Deputy Minister De Lange could add this problem to his agenda. It is clear that we do need better facilities for our head office, but will it not send a very positive message if we rather delay the construction of new offices and use these considerable funds to create more space for prisoners?

Lastly, the question of gangs must receive more urgent attention. If some members of our staff are involved in gang-related activities, surely we must get rid of the bad eggs in our midst. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr F ADAMS: Hon Chairperson, hon Ministers, Deputy Ministers, hon MECs, special delegates and hon members of the House, foremost, I want to congratulate the hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers on their appointments and reappointments. I wish them a fruitful and successful term of office.

In putting a comprehensive and effective criminal justice system in place, there will be some major problems that the Government will have to address

• and did address, over the past 10 years. Many steps have indeed been taken and must still be taken. You must be aware of the fact that the electorate judges our work, not on the basis of what we have been doing or are doing, but by results. The key performance indicators will always be the following: Is crime being brought under control? Is the criminal justice system dealing effectively with crime? Is an efficient deterrent to crime being put in place? Are our citizens and others enjoying greater safety and security?

We acknowledge that Government and communities are deeply concerned about the culture of violence. Because that culture of violence must be reversed, heavy emphasis must be placed on the implementation of the criminal justice system. We need those additional police officers and correctional services officers who should be well-trained, and the additional vehicles on the ground where they can all make a difference.

We need, and we believe there are, committed officers. In the same way, they must be rewarded for hard work. We need consequences for continued failure. We need a united national campaign to show zero-tolerance to criminals. We need to fight crime together, as a nation. The New NP supports these Budget Votes. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr S SHICEKA: Thank you very much, Chairperson, Deputy Ministers, the Chair of the Council and hon members. My focus today is on a clause of the Freedom Charter that was adopted in 1955. The clause on which I will focus, says that all shall be equal before the law. However, before I engage in that - because I believe that this Charter lives - we have to look at where we are coming from and how far we have gone as a Government.

There were many factors that militated against the efficiency and effectiveness of our courts before 1994. They include the lack of credibility, the lack of integrity and the lack of legitimacy. The mandates of the court were vague, ambiguous and largely directed at supporting and ensuring an illegitimate system of government. They often functioned in an uncoordinated manner. They were not subjected to any effective and credible oversight and control mechanisms. They were characterised by an uneven distribution of resources between traditionally black and white areas.

Transformation, therefore, brought legitimacy, accountability, and effectiveness. Substituting the supremacy of Parliament with that of the Constitution was a fundamental arena in the process of transformation. This shift has repositioned and redefined the independence of the judicial system in our country. The judicial service commission and magistrate commission that were partly reconstituted yesterday as we appointed the members designate, have made important progress regarding the appointment of the judicial system in our country, particularly the representivity of the system to ensure that it truly reflects the demographics of our country.

The rationalisation of the magistrate courts across the length and breadth of our country is commended by the committee. With the establishment of high courts in all provinces, the people of Mpumalanga will no longer have to go to Gauteng for their high court cases. The high court will be established in their own area. The rationalisation of the magisterial boundaries must be concomitant and be in line with our local government boundaries, as must all structures in our country. The committee supports the clarion call of the department. This calls for efficiency, accessibility, swift and effective service. We believe that the department has its heart in the right place. We also want to say to the department it must make sure that it strengthens the correlation between prosecutors and investigators, because many cases are lost. You find that these cases are lost simply because the magistrates and judges claim that there is insufficient evidence. That insufficient evidence is caused by a lack of cooperation between the two institutions.

We also note with appreciation that the disappearance of case dockets has been reduced. We also support the view that the Minister is implementing integrated case flow management in all areas, as well as the appointment of registrars who are going to ensure that cases are managed properly, that the case files do not disappear or do not get stolen by thieves and criminals who pay our officials to do the job for them. We also support the view that is expressed by the department that it will be taking the courts to the people by establishing courts in various areas in our townships and in our rural areas. We also support the view of the department that says every one million people will have access to the courts by 2007. We hope the Deputy Minister will be able to meet his target because we are going to hold him to it, to ensure that oversight work is being done. He has made that promise. It is documented and he has to stick to it.

We also support the view that he is going to establish minimum security measures in our courts by 2007, as has been raised by our chair, Kgoshi Mokoena. This is an area of importance, and one of concern. The National Crime Prevention Strategy which we developed in 1996, pushed to ensure that special courts are established, particularly the sexual offences courts and the equality courts. As we speak, we have 218 equality courts. It means that if you are disgruntled, unhappy or aggrieved about discrimination, you can go to court now, and they are able to ensure that you get a redress in that respect.

Also, maintenance investigators are in place. There are about 72 now. Both these investigators and prosecutors will be increased to 100 in 71 courts. It tells men who are irresponsible, who father children and then leave them, that they are going to be in trouble. Therefore, ensure that you take responsibility in this respect. If we do that, we will be able to spare some resources because people will not have to be paid through the system of social grants to children.

The conviction rate has increased in our country. In 1999 it was 78% and it has gone up to 81% by 2000, but we believe that more still has to be done in this respect. We must make sure that once you are arrested, you will be convicted. An average case preparation cycle has decreased from 110 days to 71 days. We commend this achievement, but we believe that there is still more room for improvement. You must do more. The court managers who will be appointed in our courts to ensure that our courts are managed professionally, are also appreciated by the committee. We believe the decentralisation that you have implemented is a step in the right direction. However, we believe that you must ensure that these managers are supported. You do not have to have magistrates being turned into managers, but should have managers who are trained in management and who must do their work. There are still overall challenges which I want to outline as I move on. One of the major challenges that are still there is the increase of the number of women judges, particularly black women. [Time expired.]

Mr M A MZIZI: Sihlalo, noNgqongqoshe namaSekela abo, sithi unwele olude. [Chairperson, Ministers and their Deputies, we say: Long live!]

There is a need for greater synergy among the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development, the Department of Correctional Services and the Department of Safety and Security, as well as the Department of Defence. These departments need to establish closer co-operation in order to focus on dealing effectively with the grave issue of crime in South Africa.

These four departments are the very machinery that holds the potential to effectively rid our communities of crime. They should not function in isolation, but in partnership with each other. They need to forge closer relations and bear in mind that in order for the cycle of justice to be complete, they all need to perform consistently and diligently. This will also do away with the backlogs that are hindering the process of justice. The reward of diligent work will be a crime-free South Africa.

Touching on justice, the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development, on the other hand, does not seem to be managing the process of court cases speedily. The postponement of cases creates intense backlogs, leaving the state burdened for months with the maintenance of prisoners, some of whom are eventually found innocent after lengthy waiting periods in prison. This is unacceptable.

The Department of Justice and Constitutional Development needs to find ways of dealing with cases speedily. One of the contributing factors to backlogs in court cases is that courts are inaccessible. The township of Zonkizizwe, for example, does not have a court. The people are expected to travel long distances to reach the Heidelberg court. You also find the same thing regarding the Germiston regional magistrate’s court. This leads to further backlogs in court processes. This court services Alberton, Thokoza, Katlehong and other neighbouring areas. This regional court has a record of approximately 400 postponed cases, while the court can only dispose of 40 cases in a month. In this regard, we request that the Minister revisit this matter and consider taking the court back to Alberton where it was.

The backlogs in the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development owing to the postponement of cases, has led to overcrowding in prisons which fall under Correctional Services. This overcrowding itself is very unhygienic and leads to the spread of infectious diseases. This is also most unfortunate for child offenders who are negatively affected by long waiting periods in prisons.

The Department of Defence also plays a crucial role in terms of combating crime. However, they need to be afforded the power to make arrests, as well as statements that would effectively oblige them to testify and hence contribute positively towards the conviction of offenders. Crime levels will definitely be reduced if the Department of Defence can assist the Police Service to combat crime. They therefore need to establish a partnership which the IFP believes can only bring about positive results in drastically reducing crime in South Africa.

With the very limited time that I have, may I also touch on safety and security. While we support the budget, we would like to see the department taking vigilant steps towards combating crime against women and children. Women and children are often vulnerable to violent crime and abuse. More often than not, crimes committed against women and children do not receive the necessary attention they deserve, resulting in offenders going unpunished, setting them free to recommit their crimes.

The IFP condemns this cycle and calls for the department to conduct stringent investigations into crimes against women and children. The IFP thus requests that funds be allocated to training officers to deal with such crimes in order for them to gain much-needed experience to deal with sensitive cases in a manner that is both dignified and humane in order to accommodate the victims. It is important for the police to sharpen their investigative skills. [Time expired.]

Mr A L MOSEKI: Hon Chairperson of this august House, hon Ministers, hon colleagues and distinguished citizens of this country in the gallery, we are gathered in this House this morning to debate the budget of the SA National Defence Force.

The department whose budget we are debating derives its mandate from Chapter 11, section 200 and other sections of the Constitution. This department is mandated by the Constitution to structure and manage a very disciplined Defence Force. Another purpose of that section is to ensure that this well-structured and disciplined force defends this country. The Constitution further requires our Defence Force to defend and protect the Republic of South Africa and its citizens against forces of aggression in accordance with principles of international laws and regulations.

During the past 10 years, a process of building the National Defence Force, which could meet the above-outlined requirements, began. Forces from the liberation movements, the apartheid regime and Bantustans were brought together to establish a force that must serve the citizens of this country and ensure that our democratic gains are defended continuously.

This Defence Force that we are talking about has played an important role since its establishment 10 years ago. The important role that it has played has removed the prejudices that were indoctrinated into the former defence forces, especially those of the apartheid regime and the Bantustans. We now have a Defence Force that defends the citizens of this country and ensures that in this country we all feel protected as citizens.

It is, however, important to point out that there are still some challenges that are faced by this department, and an example like what occurred at the Tempe Military Base cannot be left out in this instance. We therefore want to urge the department to speed up the process of ensuring that the attitudes of those who still have prejudices are transformed.

I also want to say that despite the daunting challenges that the department has faced during in the past 10 years, the report given by the secretariat to the select committee under the leadership of Kgoshi Mokoena gave a very clear indication that much progress has been made with regard to transforming this department. For that we want to commend the Minister, the Deputy Minister and the secretariat for a job well done.

Our defence needs to be combat-ready, because this is an area that we picked up at a meeting that we had. The defence needs to be combat-ready in order to continuously defend this country and democracy, and for that it becomes important for us as citizens and public representatives of this country to ensure that funds are made available to replenish the equipment and to ensure that hi-tech weapon systems are established in our Defence Force. That is necessary for us in order to compete with what is happening all over the world, and if we do not do that, we will become very vulnerable.

The people of this country expressed their unconditional support for the people’s movement on 14 April. They voted, they shouted and they said that despite all the negative sentiments that are expressed by some of the public representatives in this House against transformation, the ANC must continue to lead our people and ensure that transformation does take place. It is for that reason that we, as members of this glorious movement and as responsible public representatives, have been given this mandate.

We want to say to the department that we will give them our unconditional support. In our interaction with the department, when the department sent its strategic business plan to us, we became convinced that the budget and strategic business plan meet all the requirements in order to be supported by this House.

We therefore unconditionally support what the Chairperson of the select committee said when he presented his input, namely that this House should unconditionally agree to the Vote as presented to us by the Deputy Minister. [Applause.]

Dr F J VAN HEERDEN: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek wil graag `n verwante aspek aanraak, ‘n saak wat nie slegs Verdediging, Justisie, Grondwetlike Ontwikkeling en Veiligheid en Sekuriteit raak nie, maar wat ook Intelligensie en Buitelandse Sake, trouens ook aspekte van ander portefeuljes, sonder die minste twyfel raak. Ek glo dat van die sleutelportefeuljes vandag in hierdie debat verteenwoordig is, en derhalwe wil ek dit graag hier opper.

Die Regering moet ongetwyfeld bewus wees van die werwing van soldate - rekrute - manlik, sowel as vroulik, vir die Al-Kaïda-, Hamas- en die Fatah- bewegings. Trouens, hierdie werwing word openlik in hierdie land gedoen, onder meer in plekke van aanbidding. Gister op Channel 702, die sogenaamde Cape Talk, in die bekende Tim Modise se program, Netwerk, was daar `n gas by name van … [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Dr F J VAN HEERDEN: Mr Chairperson, I would like to touch upon a related issue, a matter that not only affects Defence, Justice, Constitutional Development and Safety and Security, but Intelligence and Foreign Affairs too, in fact, without any doubt aspects of other portfolios too. I believe that some of the key portfolios are represented in this debate today, and therefore I would like to raise it here.

The Government must undoubtedly be aware of the recruitment of soldiers - recruits - male, as well as female, for the Al Qaeda, Hamas and Fatah movements. As a matter of fact, this recruitment is openly done at, amongst others, places of worship in this country. Yesterday, on Channel 702, the so-called Cape Talk, on the show of the well-known Tim Modise, Netwerk, there was a guest called. [Interjections.]]

I beg your pardon?

An HON MEMBER: Chairperson, is the member prepared to answer a question?

Dr F J VAN HEERDEN: Chair, if you will allow me extra time at the end of my three minutes; I have only three minutes … The ACTING DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: There is no such rule, hon member. Say whether you agree to answer the question or not.

Dr F J VAN HEERDEN: Chair, in that case, I am not prepared to answer a question.

The ACTING DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Okay. Fine, you may proceed.

Dr F J VAN HEERDEN: Thank you.

Voorsitter, gister op Channel 702, Cape Talk, het ‘n sekere persoon by name van Iqbal Jassien openlik propaganda gemaak vir hierdie bewegings. In die beperkte tyd is daar net enkele vrae aan die onderskeie Ministeries, en kan hulle in hul reaksies daarop reageer.

In die eerste plek: Wat is die Regering se beleid - die amptelike beleid- met betrekking tot hierdie bewegings - die Al-Kaïda-, Hamas- en Fatah- bewegings? Tweedens: Het die Regering enige planne om sulke persone wat gewerf word te verhoed om die Republiek van Suid-Afrika te verlaat? Derdens: Verlaat sulke rekrute Suid-Afrika, indien dit nie verhoed word nie, dan wel met die goedkeuring en die medewete van die Regering? Vierdens: Indien sulke persone terugkeer na die Republiek van Suid-Afrika, gaan hulle vervolg word en, indien wel, kragtens welke wette? Indien hulle nie vervolg word nie, wat is die rede waarom hulle nie vervolg word nie?

Het ons hier te doen met n kwessie van n deurlopende hantering van die 70 persone in Zimbabwe wat op dieselfde grondslag gehanteer word as hierdie persone wat die land verlaat? Die Ministers hoef nie oor mekaar te val om my te antwoord nie, en moet ook nie terugval op vae antwoorde soos die feit dat die hele aangeleentheid sub judice is nie, want dit is nie. My vrae het niks daarmee te doen nie. Hulle moet ook nie die vrae probeer ontwyk deur te sê dat dit nie vrae is wat in hierdie debat tuis hoort nie. Dit hoort inderdaad in hierdie debat tuis. Wat hier van wesenlike belang is, is regsekerheid - die hele kwessie van die ``rule of law’’. Wat hier ter sprake is, moet geld. Daar moet regsekerheid in hierdie land kom. Hierdie mense kom terug om die land, wat reeds ‘n geweldige groot mate van onrus ervaar as gevolg van geweld, roof en misdaad, te destabiliseer. Ons kan nie toelaat dat hierdie persone ongehinderd gaan en terugkom nie. [Tyd verstreke.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Dr F J VAN HEERDEN: Yesterday on Channel 702, Cape Talk, a person called Iqbal Jassien was openly promoting propaganda in favour of these movements. In the limited time there are just a few questions to the respective Ministries and they can reply to them in their answers.

Firstly, what is the Government’s policy - the official policy- regarding these movements - the Al Qaeda, Hamas and Fatah movements? Secondly, does the Government have any plans to prevent such persons who are recruited from leaving the country? Thirdly, do such recruits leave South Africa, if it is not prevented, with the approval and knowledge of the Government? Fourthly, if such persons return to the Republic of South Africa, will they be prosecuted, and if so, under which laws? If they are not prosecuted, what are the reasons that they are not prosecuted?

Are we dealing here with a question of continuous treatment of the 70 persons in Zimbabwe who are treated on the same basis as these people who leave the country? The Ministers do not have to fall over one another to answer me, and they should not resort to vague answers like the fact that the matter is sub judice, because it is not. My questions have nothing to do with that. They must also not try to evade the questions by saying that such questions do not belong in this debate. They indeed belong in this debate.

What is of essential importance here is legal security - the whole issue of the rule of law. That which is relevant here, should be applied. We must have legal certainty in this country. People return to the country, which is already experiencing a great measure of unrest due to violence, robbery and crime, to destabilise it. We cannot allow these people to come and go unhindered. [Time expired.]]

Ms P M HOLLANDER: Hon Deputy Chairperson of Committees …

Ms S J LOE: Mr Chairperson, on a point of order.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Can you take your seat, hon member. Yes?

Ms S J LOE: Mr Chair, I was wondering whether we are going according to the speakers’ list as it appears in front of us. Are we, Sir?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Allow me to give you a one-minute induction. As I am presiding in the Chair here, I do not have to communicate any changes with regard to the speakers list. I liaise with the Duty Whip who liaises with party whips in terms of reordering or changing the speakers’ list. As far as I am concerned, I am on the right track in terms of the proceedings of the day. Can you take your seat? Can you take the platform, hon Hollander? [Interjections.] What is the point of order? [Interjections.] Hon Ntwanambi, can you stop your dialogue? I just want to hear on which point the hon member is rising.

Mr G R KRUMBOCK: I can understand if the speakers’ list has been changed. That is fine. However, I do not think our party has been communicated with in that regard. Can we just find out whether our member, who is due to make her maiden speech today, is in fact on the speaker’s list or not. We now have had two speakers subsequent to the time slot in which she should have spoken. I think neither our party nor she actually knows whether she is on the list at all. That is not what we have in front of us. Can you at least tell us where she is on the list.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Are you referring to hon Loe? She is going to speak after hon Hollander. [Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: I think you did well to conduct that mini- workshop, because members need to understand the proceedings of this House.

I can understand the vigour you have, hon member, since your leader is in the gallery, hence you would like to be seen. You should respect the presiding officer and let us allow the proceedings to continue. Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Thank you, hon Chief Whip. Hon Hollander may proceed.

Ms P M HOLLANDER: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy Ministers, hon members and distinguished guests, on the question of Al Qaeda, I would like to tell the hon member Van Heerden that the intelligence has reported that they have caught members of this organisation, and they have sent them back to their countries. The review of the first decade of freedom will be an ongoing matter for debate and reflection throughout 2004.

The nature of our transition, which is about the fundamental transformation of all aspects of life and social endeavour, means that this debate has many components and potential approaches. In the spirit of Batho Pele, we say … ``motho ke motho ka batho ba bangwe.’’ [… no man is an island.]

The ANC is an agent of change and therefore the incarceration programme finances the detention of prisoners in safe custody until they can be lawfully released. The programme provides for the healthcare and physical needs of offenders in terms of norms and standards that comply with the Constitution. The Department of Correctional Services strives to provide adequate prison accommodation that complies with accepted standards. In prisons where male, female and juvenile offenders are accommodated, female and juvenile offenders are housed in separate designated sections.

To deal with overcrowding in prisons, the Departments of Correctional Services and of Justice and Constitutional Development have initiated the following: transferring unsentenced juveniles to places of secure care; converting certain prison sentences to correctional supervision; identifying, renovating and upgrading existing facilities; placing awaiting- trial detainees under community correction; and piloting integrated action by departments to review cases and reduce the average detention cycle times of awaiting-trial detainees. We would like to commend the Department of Correctional Services.

Apart from these initiatives, the department should address overcrowding on a continuous basis in conjunction with the other role-players in the CJS. One strategy is the use of Saturday courts to address the backlog with regard to awaiting-trial detainees. The implementation of the electronic court process will also go a long way towards streamlining court processes, although the department will continue to release offenders serving minor offences after they have served a set minimum sentence.

In terms of the Constitution, a child is a person under the age of 18 years. The department regards a person between the ages of 14 and 25 as a youth. The department is responsible for the detention, treatment and development of sentenced juveniles. However, here I would like to ask the hon Deputy Minister for Justice, Mr De Lange, that before they pass the Child Justice Bill, to have sectoral discussions take place between departments, because the Youth Commission says that a person is regarded as a youth up to the age of 35.

Section 7(2) [c] of the Correctional Services Act, Act 111 of 1998, stipulates that children must be kept separate from adult offenders and in accommodation appropriate to their age, as young offenders are predisposed to negative influence. The aim of this separation is the provision of distinctive custodial, development and treatment programmes, as well as religious care, in an environment conducive to the care, development and motivation of youths to participate and to develop their potential.

There are mother and child units in eight female prisons nationally. By June 2003 there were 208 infants under the age of five in prison with their mothers. The policy on such infants clearly stipulates that mothers and children are kept in a separate unit within the prison, where the surroundings and facilities are complementary to the sound physical, social and mental care and development of children. However, we would also like to ask the department if there are facilities for crèches for these children at these prison facilities.

The policy also stipulates that the admission of an infant with a mother is permitted if no other suitable accommodation and care are available at that stage, and that it should be regarded as a temporary measure only. The right of the mother to have her child with her during admission promotes a positive relationship between mother and child. Policy emphasises that the mother should be taught good childcare practices for her own self-esteem and self-confidence and for the benefit of the child. We do commend the Department of Correctional Services.

With regard to reintegration into the community, the department aims to equip offenders with the skills required for effective reintegration into society after release. Offenders sentenced to longer than six months’ imprisonment undergo a basic pre-release programme before release. Aspects receiving attention include how to secure employment, personal finance management and street law.

Specialists from the community are also involved in the presentation of the programme. Care and support for an offender are prerequisites for placement in the community. Before offenders are placed, they are assisted with obtaining employment and accommodation, or at least care and support. Community involvement in supporting offenders after placement is encouraged. We therefore ask that the department makes more contact with their communities.

The administration programme funds the overall management of the department. It includes policy formulation by the Minister, the national commissioner, and other members of senior management, and facilitates prison inspections by the inspecting judge. The budget of the programme accounted for about 32% of the budget of the department in 2003-04, and remains at approximately this level throughout the medium term.

Employees of the Department of Correctional Services are not entitled to strike and conditions of employment have to be negotiated with labour unions in a bargaining council. [Interjections.] The major unions active in the department are the Police and Prisons Civil Rights Union, the Public Servants’ Association and the Democratic Nursing Association of South Africa. Deputy Chairperson of Committees, I thank you; enkosi; ke a leboga, Aluta Continua!

Ms S J LOE: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, and may I say that it is a pleasure and a privilege for me to address this House for the first time, as well as the hon Deputy Ministers and the public gallery, including the Leader of the Official Opposition whom I was not expecting.

The NCOP undoubtedly presents challenges and complexities that are unique to the members of this Chamber, as opposed to the National Assembly and the provincial legislatures. It is our task to closely guard the interests of the provinces from a national perspective. In this regard, no portfolios present a bigger challenge than those in the security and justice cluster. While the power in these departments remains at national level, the provinces will continue to battle with the huge problems that beset them, and we in the NCOP will be just as powerless to assist.

Indeed, in respect of policing, our MECs have no political power at all and are rendered almost useless in their roles, as are the respective legislatures in their oversight capacities over the SA Police Service.

As a national police service every police official reports to the national commissioner in Pretoria. The civilian departments of safety and security at provincial level have some say in the appointment of their provincial commissioners in the SAPS, but these provincial commissioners are appointed by, and report to the national commissioner. So there is no point in having any say at all.

The budget of the service is derived entirely from the national budget. Political accountability for SAPS rests largely with the national Minister for Safety and Security. Now, I have experienced first-hand the frustration in the legislatures in this regard. In the second term Gauteng had as its MEC a very energetic and sharp-minded person whose talents, in my view, were almost entirely wasted. She was, in the words of an opposition member, nothing more than an expensive public relations officer, which some might deem unnecessary harsh criticism, but it was close enough to the truth to find its target.

Over the years, the lack of political power has plagued the provincial departments, the MECs, and the legislatures. Gauteng’s Premier Shilowa recently said in an address in the Gauteng legislature that policing was not his provincial government’s responsibility. So with all the best intentions in the world, MECs do not have the right to do much more than monitor and evaluate the police, oversee the formation and functions of community police forums, and implement the dubiously successful National Crime Prevention Strategy.

MECs were not consulted on the controversial Resolution 7 which redeployed the police and regraded police stations, causing uncertainty in the ranks and lowering already damaged morale. To this end Government’s insistence on racial quotas and demographic correctness has resulted in police vehicles being used to ferry police officials for long distances between home and work at every shift change, reducing the already inadequate number of reactionary vehicles available to the public. In a country where violent crime is rampant, this is simply not good enough.

In any event, provincial governments are far better placed than central Government to formulate crime prevention policies and practices and to equip police according to their needs and according to local crime imperatives.

The DA applauded Government for introducing Metro Police to the largest centres in South Africa, precisely because this decentralises the control of policing and allows local government to address crime on the basis of where and how it happens. However, this excludes huge areas of South Africa and, of course, whole provinces that do not have Metro areas.

I say again that the very role of this House is to look after the interests of the provinces. We need to decentralise the SAPS and devolve political power in order to properly address crime in the provinces. Simply put, provinces must be empowered to deal with crime.

The debate must begin on how we flatten the organisational hierarchy of the SAPS and give substantial policing powers to the provinces and to provincial commissioners. Further, we must begin to focus on station level where each station commissioner must be in a position to manage his or her people. Like any other manager in the private sector, they must have the power to hire, fire, promote, train and reward their officers, and to decide how to allocate their budgets and other resources.

More importantly, each station commissioner should be required to publish a pledge to the communities they serve on the levels of services that community can expect. I am convinced that these measures would go a long way to protecting our people from crime. I thank you, Mr Chairperson. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, I hope that the quietness and orderliness that have accompanied your speech, will be reciprocated and observed by all members of this House. I think this is a very important comment that I must make. Without any waste of time, I then proceed to call the hon Deputy Minister of Correctional Services, hon Gillwald.

THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Chairperson, colleagues and Committee Chairperson, the hon Kgosi Mokoena, firstly, I would like to congratulate you on the structure of this debate. I think it is really important that the cluster approach be emphasised as in the cluster debate and, after a couple of initial comments, I will deal with those issues that I feel speak to our intercluster relationship, its successes and its failures and as those pertain to the Budget.

I would just like to make a few comments about the hon Loe’s input and say that there is a fundamental misunderstanding of the whole process of intergovernmental relations and how we promote these. You have every right to push a federal agenda. We do not hold the same views. I worked very closely with the MEC for Safety and Security in Gauteng particularly and found her to be a very effective official who tried to make the system effective at the provincial level. So I would just like to say that I think the understanding of intergovernmental co-operation in the different tiers is a little shortsighted.

I think that there are a couple of fundamental issues that we need to look at. The basic statistics that tell us the story about prisons is that we have 186 000 inmates in our correctional facilities, while we have space for 113 000. This is an overcrowding of between 53 000 and 58 000 people - it goes up and down. This is probably one of those areas that is symptomatic of the clusters not working well together. This is where we are not achieving the kind of results that we had hoped for, and this is an important issue that we need to deal with as a cluster. For us, we need you all to see the cluster as a continuum. It starts at investigations, goes through to prosecutions, sentence and, ultimately, incarceration.

We are the receiving receptacle for the activities and decisions that are made on the supply side of our equation, which is in police and in justice. To a large extent it is difficult for us, but not impossible - and I will address that later - to address the issue of inflows. However, unless justice and police take it as seriously as we do and work together, we are not going to find a permanent solution. That is one of the issues I discussed closely with the Deputy Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development. We feel that where our departments interface to produce a collective result, those interfaces need to be regulated by protocols that define the roles that determine the outcomes and define accountability, so that performance can be assessed and is regulated. We do need those protocols, because in the projects that we have, collective efforts between our departments have reduced year on year the awaiting trial detainees by 10 000 since last year. It is not good enough! Very often those efforts are either personality driven or they are funded, and when the funding dries up, they stop. We need to understand that this must be an ongoing process and, more than the problem itself, it illustrates to us that integrated government is not just something Ministers do at their interministerial committee meetings.

If it is to be successful, it must happen all the way down and particularly at the face of service delivery. Where you find that projects work as they pertain to corrections, you will find that the head of prison is meeting in a justice forum with the local prosecutor, with the senior magistrate and with all the roleplayers in the cluster to make the system work.

However, he is not required to. There is no protocol that says, ``Thou shalt do this … and this is what is expected of you … and this is what happens if you fail … ‘’ So, again it is personality driven. We have the various parts of the machinery. We have to reassemble them in a way that they work and we have to provide the oil that makes it work efficiently. I think this is very important. Our awaiting trial detainees are symptomatic and may be a case study for us of how integrated governance fails and has the potential to work. I think those are the important issues that we must talk about.

For instance, there are already mechanisms in place to reduce awaiting trial populations and they are not being used. For instance, diversion is not readily used - one of the problems being that we are wholly dependent on the provincial social development departments to provide the infrastructure. They are not keeping up infrastructure expansion at the rate of the supply side.

Who are to take in the children, for instance? Places of safety, secure places for child offenders are not being provided at the rates they are required. I refer here to the hon Loe’s notion that we need to co-operate more closely. She has a federal model; we have something else in mind. However, what I am saying is that we need to liaise at a provincial level and make our case with provinces as they make the decisions.

The important thing, though, is also to let people know what will happen if they do not do this. We run a severe risk, and this is where I am going to alert you to one of the most telling statistics. I was in the Kroonstad Prison yesterday. Sixty two per cent of our prison population is under 35 years old. These are young people.

The average sentence is about nine years and two days. If a 16-, 17-, 18-, 19-, or 20-year-old therefore goes into our correctional facility and receives an average sentence of nine years - which is very high by international standards, I might add - but if they do, they will realise into society, we will release them onto society at the age of 30, fully expectant to be reintegrated because they served their dues to society. If we have not rehabilitated and impacted on those children and young people’s capacity to interact progressively and proactively with society, we will have failed the communities we are undertaking to protect, because essentially, if we do not impact on these people with our rehabilitation, we will just be recycling more and more violent or criminal elements into our society. We cannot do this.

Perhaps the biggest tragedy of overcrowding is that it impacts on our operational budget, our ability. It is terribly expensive to house that number of people. We are not saying we are unwilling to hold people who present a clear risk to society, but too many people are sitting in our prisons who are not a risk to our society. This is what I am saying: we need to reduce that population so that we have more operational budget to spend on the inmates who spend long terms, or even short terms, to rehabilitate them, skill them and give them the capacity to deal with the society as normal, active and engaged individuals. This is extremely important.

So, what is not happening? Diversion is not practised. Take alternative sentencing. Magistrates often do not consider community service. Why? Because it takes a little more effort. We must encourage our magistrates to do this. Very often for petty crime, where the offender represents no clear and danger risk, bail is given or a fine is given that is unaffordable, so you have people who go back to prison because they cannot afford R100 bail or a R100 fine. They sit in prison, either awaiting trial or serving a sentence, because they cannot afford R100.

And what do we do? We teach them how to become criminals in the current environment. We must keep these people out. If you do the sums, it costs about R100 a day to keep a person in prison. Just do the numbers. If there is R100 bail, it is better to come to us at correctional services and say, ``Provide the R100 bail and let them go,’’ because they are sitting there for no reason at all. It is certainly cheaper for us, and we keep those people out of prison.

I now come to prosecutors. I know that there have been programmes to introduce plea-bargaining and it is being more widely used, but not enough. It is really important. However, we have come up with some really good innovations and that, of course, is the trick in any developing society. If you have resources that are under severe pressure because of the needs of a society, the only ingredient that really makes that money worthwhile is applying innovation, applying new ways of doing things and imagination.

Perhaps the most recent manifestation of this is our long-awaited community courts. In justice I militated very strongly for these, and I am so glad to see that in the Cape area three will be introduced there. There is already one in Pretoria, and these courts will deal with petty crime and anti- social behaviour, and will use alternatives to imprisonment, such as diversion and community service.

Just listen to the range of partnerships, and this is the issue. We need to synergise our various skills, and the partners are, of course, the Departments of Justice, Social Development, Correctional Services, the South African Police Service and the National Prosecuting Authority, the Legal Aid Board, the Provincial Department of Social Services, Nicro, the City of Cape Town in this case, and the universities and the law centres. So you can see all these bodies have brought their skills together, put a little bit of innovation with their resources and we are coming up with something that provides a real and measurable solution. I want to applaud that effort.

With the police I am calling for something that I hope my colleague the Deputy Minister is listening to. We released around 16 500 people per month who have been the victims of earlier arrests. They are arrested, no case can be developed and on a three monthly cycle they are eliminated. If you have a justice of normal standing and you have a job and you are arrested, and you are in prison for three months, you could well have lost your job by the time you get out. It is incredibly disruptive.

We used to have a system that I think we should consider, although not in cases where the perpetrator presents a potential risk. Here there is no question that we need to detain people under certain circumstances. However, we had a thing called case readiness certification. A senior official in the police department would go through the files and determine which ones are ready to go to the prosecutor to present. This happened when we had all the evidence to make an arrest.

At the moment there is a habit to arrest and investigate as time allows. We have 16 500 people per month being released from our prisons because there is no case or evidence against them. We need a corporative process with the Minister, and maybe case readiness certification is an answer, maybe not, but I know that we will come up with solutions that really make a difference.

In terms of the budget there are a couple of issues that I need to raise. We are engaged with Treasury to ensure the alignment of our Draft White Paper and the budget allocation. If this exercise is based merely on a review of current expenditure patterns, delivery by the Department on its mandate will be severely hampered. What is required is a fundamental revision of the real cost drivers and of the current base line allocation. The realignment exercise must be conducted as a matter of urgency. The wider the gap between expenditure patterns and policy provisions, the more difficult it becomes to achieve that policy stated aims. This realignment exercise must be conducted as matter of urgency.

With reference to our expenditure on personnel there are several risk areas that need to be noted. The success of our corrections care and development programme is highly dependent on a range of professional and middle management skills that are unique to this kind of work. Our vision of a people-centred corrections work process is put at severe risk if we do not acquire the necessary psychologists, medical and other attendant skills. This is a people-driven business that requires a specific mix of skills. To ignore these requirements is to impact on our very core business.

In terms of our budget allocation, the impact of HIV/Aids cannot be ignored. Increased budgets for peer education will be necessary, not to mention the cost of expanded antiretroviral treatment programmes. Prevention regimes and other communicable diseases and voluntary counselling and testing processes are also required. The need for specialist nutritional and medical skills associated with the treatment of HIV/Aids infections is acute and is also expected to rise sharply in the short and medium term.

I am just a humble bookkeeper by training. Let us just do the sums. Our budget is just over R8 billion. Payments for overtime are R900 million. It is unsustainable. This is nearly 10% of our budget. There are ways in which to solve this problem. We are not trying to exempt ourselves from overpayment if people work overtime. We are exempt from the labour laws. However, if we moved from a five day to a seven day dispensation very much like the SAPS, we could use that money to work in shifts, employ 3,4 or 5 000 extra people who will relieve the load on the current workers and therefore impact dramatically on the need for overtime payments.

What are the solutions? If we negotiate through the forums for parity on salaries with, for instance, a comparable department such as SAPS and then employ the extra people, whose objectives will we be meeting? The national objective for job creation and unions should be delighted with this solution because they also propose a work creation model for us as a country, so there are ways in which to do this. What is required is a genuine desire to talk and thrash out solutions. If we meet and we redefine the old problems, all we become is acutely aware of how bad the problem is. However, if a solutions-driven process is put in place, the unions, the progressive unions and ourselves have a long way to go.

I was at Kroonstad yesterday. I met all the staff and there was a question- and-answer session. The leadership of certain unions stood out. All their problems were related to themselves. Not one problem was raised about care for the inmates who are our core business since they are entrusted to us. Worse still is the complete misunderstanding of, for instance, the issue around overtime. It is as though we are standing on the edges waiting to wrap it up. There was not one condemnation of the behaviour in Baberton and Nelspruit. Not one condemnation! It is required. It is an absolute requirement. There were no statements on corruption and what the union’s role is in fighting it.

I think these are important issues. If we are going to make progressive strides forward, and as we see the Jali Commission wrap up its work, we need to know that there are people on the ground, working in our correctional facilities, who have the same objectives of seeing this department go forward and flourish and I think that is really important. One does not get that impression on occasions like these. For me it was a little bit sad.

An interesting thing is that I am a great technology buff and I tend to like technology solutions. However, I also do believe that technology should be appropriate and relevant to the matter at hand. If any of you have any time and you have not done this, go to the office of the Inspecting Judge. Here technology is working and it is instant information. If I need some statistics, I can very often phone that office. I can always get the same stuff from my department, but they are very often out in the field working. So I very often use that office, as well. I am not saying that my department cannot provide it, but the spontaneity, the instantness of the information that they have and the network that they have out there of people inspecting prisons, asking the right kind of questions, reporting back - I think this is a model to be followed.

Also, the National Council for Correctional Services has been delegated to me as a responsibility. I would like to speak to Judge Desai, because I am actually going to have to pick his brains and rely on his wisdom so as to see that this becomes a more useful tool in policy development and in, for instance, an issues such as assessing parole on life sentence inmates. I would like to thank Judge Desai for the advice he has given us, and me in particular in my voyage of discovery as I tried to find out about our new department.

We need to deal with the issues around women. A very interesting statistic for those of you who do not know, is that out of 186 000 inmates there are only 4 000 women. However, there are special issues about women inmates that are not being addressed by our facilities, and if equal outcome is what we are driving for, we need to understand that we need to provide special care for those women who find themselves having collided with the law in some way or other. We need to put in the right protocols to ensure that the women who emerge are able to be integrated.

Also, I would love to see a study on a comparison on sentencing for the same crime. Very often women sentences are very harsh and we need to have a look at that.

I now come to the issue of crèches - of course crèches are appropriate. Where a mother comes in with an infant and there is no better placing, we have a very flexible and progressive policy. Although the rule calls for a child staying with a parent for only two years, we will allow it for up to five years. We will allow it for up to five years, but obviously the ideal situation for the children has to be sought. Crèches are evident in most places, but not ideal. We have huge challenges infrastructurally. We will never meet the demand. People are talking about 250 000 inmates by the end of the decade - I think it might even be sooner. There is no way we can build enough prisons. We have to fix up sentencing issues, we have to fix up awaiting-trial populations and we have to show a determination between all role-players to achieve a human rights-based system of corrections and rehabilitation. I thank the members. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon members, proceedings will be suspended at this point in time and resume once more at 14:00. We therefore want to appeal to all members to be seated at 14:00 exactly. Thank you.

Business suspended at 12:44 and resumed at 14:00.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

                           (Policy debate) Vote No 25 - Safety and Security:

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Let us take our seats. Order! Hon members, I see you are looking at me with great surprise. You want me to say there will be time for meditation and prayer. We have done that this morning. This is a continuation of this morning’s debate. So, those who have just arrived, do not be surprised, we have already done that. We are proceeding with the debates of the cluster on safety and security.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Hon Chairperson and hon members of the NCOP, I was hoping that conditions would be created in this House for a little cold in order to generate heat. When it is already as hot as it is, I do not know if we will be able to do that. The temperature in this House ought to be the same as outside, and that will allow for robust engagement with regard to the debate we are going to engage in.

After the initial 10 years of our democracy, we can say without any fear of contradiction that the SA Police Service is one of the best yardsticks to measure how far we have come as a country and as a nation. The SAPS is not yet 10 years old, but the movement of the majority of the members in the service; from the approach to policing under apartheid to serving the people under the democratic South Africa, has been dramatic. Over many years in the past, the police have been a battering ram for apartheid. Some police actions have resulted in the torture, death and exile of many South Africans, as well as the creation of circumstances for the violation of the human rights of the majority of the people.

There was still bloodletting in South Africa as recently as the beginning of the 1990s. Many people who died were freedom-loving South Africans who were struggling for the liberation of their motherland. The truth and reconciliation process exposed the involvement of some police members in human rights violations. It goes without saying that there was intense hostility between the people and the police, even as we were entering the democratic phase with the 1994 election.

Our first decade of freedom and democracy has produced a police service that works tirelessly to create an atmosphere of safety and security for the people as one of the building blocks for the consolidation of our democracy. These policemen and women are no longer part of the problem, but have repositioned themselves to contribute to the search for solutions to the many outstanding strategic and tactical questions that define human interaction in our country. They are relentless in their strategising to formulate programmes to combat crime and criminality. Working as they do on the ground, and side by side with members of our communities, they know that conventional policing on its own cannot provide permanent solutions to crime, especially social crime.

In the Western Cape, the police joined hands with the people in response to President Thabo Mbeki’s call in his state of the nation address in February last year, namely that the best way of fighting crime was to mobilise communities ``to be the driving force with the police to create a greater awareness about crime in our communities.’’ That same month the Western Cape launched the Bambanani Against Crime Campaign, which attracted 25 000 people who attended the function to commit themselves to crime fighting. There has been no looking back since then, with the communities working together with the police for safety and security in the Western Cape. At every event in the province, subsequently, police deployments are accompanied by the presence of Bambanani volunteers.

One of the major accomplishments of the campaign was the Safer Festive Season Project which was launched on 8 December last year and which ended on 18 January 2004. The project attracted 3 467 volunteers who worked with the police to cover community-based activities, shebeens, trains, beaches and the roads. They also provided protection for children and young people who participated in the various festive activities, including visits to the beaches. Their presence was recorded again last Thursday when they did duty in Mitchell’s Plain on the occasion of the launch of the anti-drug campaign.

The police, under Commissioner Mzwandile Petros, have rezoned the 138 police stations in the province into manageable crime areas of at least six police stations each for an integrated and focused approach to crime fighting. Senior police officers have been assigned to the zones for command and control. Though the project was started at the beginning of this year, the results are already visible, given the reduction in crime that has happened. There have also been a number of instances where the collaboration between the police and communities has provoked creative thinking in the fight against crime.

The police in Limpopo Province converted a police vehicle into a mobile community safety centre to improve service delivery to the rural communities of the province. This innovation earned the police respect at home and abroad. They won the United Nations award for Innovation in the Public Service in the Africa category. The award ceremony was held a week ago at the United Nations Headquarters in New York. We are proud of our police in Limpopo and the other role-players, especially the communities who have been working together with them. Sithi! Halala! [Applause.]

The North Rand policing area in Gauteng has become a leader in sector policing. The area community policing board designed a model for Tembisa township in pursuance of the principle of sector policing that was adopted by the police. The genesis of the project saw broad consultations between the board members and other partners, including the police, community leaders and residents. In the end Tembisa township was divided into 12 sectors commensurate with the 12 municipal wards in the area. Each sector has a number of units that have unit committees that function as community policing forum substructures. The police, who worked together with the communities, are deployed in these sectors on a 24-hour basis. The presence of the police in the sectors and their ability to work in concert with the people have reduced crime in Tembisa and the North Rand.

While I have mentioned only these few examples, I do want to say that there are many indicators that our police are indeed rooted in our communities, and there is interaction. That produces the circumstances regarding community policing that we have defined as a Government. Indications are there that these good programmes are being emulated elsewhere.

The SAPS conducted crime and sociographic profiles of the 63 areas in our country where most contact crimes occur. Areas, therefore, where our integrated effort will be mounted, include Duncan Village in the Eastern Cape, Batho in the Free State, Mamelodi in Gauteng, KwaMashu in KwaZulu- Natal, Thoyandou in Limpopo, Kanyamazane in Mpumalanga, Temba in North West, Geleshewe in the Northern Cape and, of course, Khayelitsha here in the Western Cape.

We are going to implement a programme in those areas that will be targeted at social crime prevention, working together with other Cabinet cluster committees, like the social and economic sectors, in the provision of services that will change for the better the socioeconomic conditions of the people. We together with the Ministries of Agriculture and Land Affairs, Housing and Provincial and Local Government, will therefore address the problems arising from the current patterns of human settlement in South Africa. Informal settlements, as you are aware, negatively affect the programme to render effective policing in such areas. The majority of the settlements have no proper streets and streetlights. The dwellings have no numbers and therefore no reference points for investigations.

Many shacks have mushroomed along our main arterial roads where, now and again, incidents of stone throwing at passing vehicles occur. This phenomenon has become a specific danger in the Western Cape, particularly on the N2 freeway, passing Gugulethu and Khayelitsha. The N1 Grassmere Toll Plaza near Johannesburg has been targeted recently by criminals who place boulders on that stretch of road to slow down motorists for attack. The perpetrators lie in wait close by and disappear into the nearby informal settlement after the deed.

We are happy that the Ministries, already cited, will use the Urban Renewal and Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Programmes to build new houses for the people, recreational facilities, especially for the youth, and to install street and other lights. Those Ministries have already announced their plans the implementation of which will contribute to the reduction of social crime.

The other day I received a letter from Zola Maseko, a young film writer and director. Some of his works have earned him worldwide recognition and international awards. Some of us here will of course remember him for his thought-provoking work on Sarah Baartman which was flighted by our national television network. Zola is an ex-uMkhonto weSizwe combatant, who worked for three years in the frontline as an MK underground operative. It therefore goes without saying that he has a deep understanding of firearms.

His letter, like some of the letters I receive from some of our compatriots, is heart-rendering. In that letter he mourns the death of Dumisani Dlamini, himself a filmmaker and a friend, who was gunned down exactly a month ago, today. He was 29 when he died. Dumi, as Dumisani was known to his friends, had just completed post production work on Zola’s new film, Drum, when he was killed. He was the producer of that film. The film seeks to understand the role of Drum magazine during the old days, particularly the times when the struggle for our liberation was moving towards its peak. Of course the film also comments on the contributions that were made by various political role-players, including former President Mandela, Walter Sisulu, O R Tambo, to mention just a few.

Zola makes the following observation in his letter:

I cannot help thinking that were it not for the proliferation of guns in our society, Dumi would be alive today and so would be the thousands upon thousands of South Africans who die from gun violence each year. However, there are other South Africans who have baulked at the idea of having stricter measures in place to ensure proper gun control by registered owners and to stop the circulation of illegal firearms. It is a fallacy to think that registered owners commit no infraction regarding gun control. They do. Many of the illegal firearms in circulation were owned legally once upon a time.

From January to May this year, registered gun owners in South Africa reported that 7 993 firearms were either lost or stolen from them. This is in addition to the 85 634 lost or stolen firearms since the year 2000. What I am indicating to you is the number of firearms that were lost and which obviously are in circulation illegally in this country. Perhaps, we do not know this, the murder of Dumi Dlamini may have been perpetrated by somebody carrying one of these firearms. Stricter gun control measures do not undermine the right of anyone to own a firearm. They protect the right of people to be safe from firearm abuse and every peace-loving and law-abiding citizen should support such measures.

I am not going to say more on this question because, as you may be aware, there is a High Court action that was brought on Friday last week against the President as first respondent, the Minister for Safety and Security as second respondent and the National Commissioner of the South African Police Service as third respondent. The South African Gun Owners Association and six others brought an urgent application for an interdict to set aside the promulgation of the Firearms Control Act, as well as the firearms control regulations.

As announced in the National Assembly last week, the Firearms Control Act will come into effect in its entirety on 1 July 2004. We divided the implementation of the Act into phases after it was promulgated. We have budgeted R63 199 956 for the implementation of the whole Act, including the allocation to provinces of R53 700 365,61 to take care of their end of the implementation.

The allocation has been divided as follows: The Eastern Cape received an allocation of R10 302 573, 90 - we should have given you 10 more cents at least to make up the R1 - the Free State received R4 562 910.20; Gauteng received R8 392 552; KwaZulu-Natal received R9 133 062; Limpopo received R4 067 926,90; Mpumalanga received R3 816 100,57 and the North West received R4 452 761, 36. The allocation of the Northern Cape and Western Cape fell on the keys of my computer. I do not know what happened, but they have disappeared from my copy, but they have also been given an allocation.

The provincial budgets will be used to service the 315 firearm registration centres allocated to the provinces as follows: 53 for the Eastern Cape, 25 for the Free State, 22 for Gauteng, 55 for KwaZulu-Natal - there are many people in KwaZulu-Natal who are applying for firearm licences; I do not know why that is so - 28 for Limpopo, 22 for Mpumalanga, 31 for North West, 32 for the Northern Cape and 47 for the Western Cape.

A total of 8 768 entry-level constables and 2 732 administrative personnel will be assigned to the various provinces during the current financial year. Gauteng will receive the biggest number of 1 935, followed by the Western Cape who will get 1 590, KwaZulu-Natal will receive 1 227 and the Eastern Cape will receive 1 183. The remaining numbers will be allocated as follows: Mpumalanga will receive 789, Limpopo will get 690, the Northern Cape will receive 496, the Free State will receive 442 and the North West will get 382. When the police in your provinces say that they do not have the necessary human resources, tell them that on this day, I indicated to the NCOP that they are given these numbers. Of course they will also say that they do not have adequate vehicles. If I had enough time, I would indicate how many vehicles they are going to get, but you will remember from an announcement we made a while back in the NA, we had said that we are striving towards a position where we will ensure that each vehicle is going to accommodate two members. We are not going to continue having a situation where a number of people share one vehicle. This time around we are moving towards that arrangement. [Applause.]

Gauteng is going to get 600 members whom we are allocating to the new division that has been established within the police for the protection and security services, while the Western Cape is going to get 400. The Western Cape will receive the 400 from the beginning of next year, and those police members will be allocated to what we define as the new railway contingent. In other words, these policemen will be working on the railway lines and at the stations in the Western Cape, but that is only a pilot project. We are going to expand the service to cover all the provinces in future. The upgrading of the Philippi Police College may see some increase in the indicated personnel figures. We will possibly add to what I am giving, but there are 240 members of SAPS whom we are going to allocate to Limpopo as part and parcel of our protection and security services. At the moment those are the three provinces that we are considering, but as we get more funds we are going to recruit more people into this particular division of the police.

An allocation of R345 million has been made for the construction and completion of new police stations around the country, and for the finalisation of work started during the last financial year regarding the upgrading of some of these stations. During the current financial year we have already opened new police stations at Mangaung in the Free State, Tsolo in the Eastern Cape and Mabopane in the North West.

The upgraded police station at Frankfurt in the Eastern Cape will be opened on 9 July 2004 and will be named after Comrade Steve Tshwete. [Applause.]

Following a Cabinet decision that the SA National Defence Force would be replaced by SAPS for border control, a task team comprising members from both structures was set up. The task team has finalised the strategy to effect this over the next six years.

During the current financial year, 5 130 additional SAPS members will be assigned to border duty. Their work will cover the border with Namibia and Botswana. The affected South African provinces will be Northern Cape, North West and Limpopo.

The 2005-06 financial year will see the consolidation of our border work, and during the 2006-07 financial year the police will take over border control on the Lesotho border that will benefit the Eastern Cape, Free State and KwaZulu-Natal. The MECs and the members of this House who come from those provinces will remember the problems that we continue to have and will appreciate the scope of the difficulties that we have in those provinces, but this is how we would want to address that situation.

During the next financial year the Mozambique and Swaziland borders will receive attention, benefiting KwaZulu-Natal, Mpumalanga and Limpopo. The last phase will affect the border between Zimbabwe and Limpopo.

The provincial Secretariats for Safety and Security, as well as their Independent Complaints Directorate counterparts continue to deliver a good service in our provinces. Of course, there are discussions that are happening at the political level to fund the best strategy to enrich the work those structures do, both at national and provincial levels. It is common cause that such an assessment would be done, given the experience of the past ten years of our democracy. We will come back to the legislative entities like the NCOP when those discussions gel into proper instruments ready for enactment as part of our law. I am sure that members of the NCOP will agree with me that we have the necessary framework and springboard on the ground in order for us to continue providing a service for the safety and security of our people. I am sure that we will all agree that the allocation that we have received this year is an allocation that will enable us to do the work that must be done. I am therefore certain that we will agree that we must have in place an amount of money that we can use as a vehicle to effect the changes that we must in order for us to consolidate our work and to rid our country of crime and criminality. Thank you.

Mr T MHLAHLO (Eastern Cape): Chairperson, firstly, we the people of the Eastern Cape would like to thank the Minister for the allocation. I am sure that it will advance our programme in making sure that quality service is provided for our communities and that the Eastern Cape becomes a safe passage for all our people in the country.

Of course, since 1994 the department of safety and liaison in the province has managed to transform and participate in government programmes so that we can provide support for individual rights and freedoms of all our people. In the past 10 years the Eastern Cape has seen the building of the new SA Police Service infrastructure, which the Minister has already mentioned. In our evaluation, more than R100 million has been provided to improve service delivery that subsequently provided improvement of the working conditions for more than 16 502 police members in the province.

This year the number, which the Minister pronounced here in terms of allocation, will add to the personnel, which finally will become a useful mechanism in providing a safe province in this financial year. The province has managed to establish working relations with a number of departments including the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development.

The Department of Justice, in collaboration with its partners, has developed a number of special courts to deal with specific crimes. Family courts have been established to hear cases such as domestic violence and maintenance of children. Special personnel, including social workers, staff these courts to deal with these cases.

Special prosecutors staff the sexual offences courts that deal with rape and child abuse in the province. A special court has been established to deal with environmental courts. One is in Port Elizabeth and it is to ensure that our natural resources are not exploited to such an extent that extinction looms.

We have also collaborated with correctional services. Overcrowding of prisons is at the top of the agenda of the Eastern Cape Provincial Criminal Justice Forum that has been established in collaboration with all relevant law-enforcement agencies. Many prisons experience situations where their accommodation is overcrowded and this is the challenge that the provincial criminal justice forum is beginning to address. This is an integrated approach to providing a quality service, together with all necessary agencies in the province.

The establishment of the special investigations unit, the Scorpions, the Asset Forfeiture Unit and the Joint Anti-Corruption Task Team, JACTT, has assisted in eradicating corruption and fraud within the state institutions and the general public. The integrated team made up of the SAPS, the Directorate of Special Operations, the Scorpions, the special investigating unit and others have recovered state assets which are worth about R6 million, and that was in the province only.

We believe that this collaboration repositions all forces which stand for justice in that province, so that it is able to proceed with the provision of a quality service to all our people.

This year the department undertakes the following tasks: Firstly, to pilot a national monitoring and evaluation tool at Motherwell and Mdantsane police stations by June, with a proposed roll-out later during this financial year to evaluate service delivery at police station level. The Minister has already indicated this area of work. So, the province is collaborating in making sure that this project is going to take off.

Secondly, we will conduct research on the efficiency and impact of community police forums by the end of August this year. This is to make sure that our interventions in facilitating an effective community police forum service is strengthened.

Finally, we did get assistance from an EU-funded programme which is worth R250 million in the province. We will facilitate the design and implementation of prevention, awareness and educational programmes focusing on crimes against women and children. These will include community victim empowerment programmes and offender support programmes. During the first phase of this programme an amount of approximately R9,3 million has been set aside for community mobilisation. We are of the opinion that this approach is not only going to make interim interventions, but will provide a long-term solution and mobilise the resources and capacity of all our communities.

This intervention by the SAPS in collaboration with the EU has repositioned us. As a result of this, we strongly believe that very soon the province is going to be a zero area in terms of the levels of crime, because currently we have the second lowest province rating in terms of the evaluations that have been done across the country. So, with those few words we want to say to the hon Minister: Your allocations will further strengthen our efforts in making sure that a collaborated approach in our anticrime strategies is strengthened. We are further committed to making sure that all the community policing forums that are collaborating with our communities will be repositioned so that the whole question of anticrime and security for our people becomes a project of South Africans because, clearly, the personnel within the SA Police Service will not be able to guard each and every single South African individual in that province. However, it is only when the police, the communities and all stakeholders act together in providing a peaceful package that we would be able to say that all our people are finally free.

Lastly, we really want to say to this House that we are committed to providing a peaceful atmosphere in our province because, clearly, it is peace which provides the basis for any development. The current 2010 bid which South Africa has secured, sets a challenge to everybody, particularly for us all in creating peaceful conditions so that finally South Africa will be ready for that 2010 bid. With those few words, thank you very much. [Applause.]

Mr B H CELE (KwaZulu-Natal): Thank you, Deputy Chair. Hon Minister, I hope that next time the hon Minister speaks here, he will mention good things that come from my province, like it was the case with the Western Cape and Limpopo. Then, hopefully, KwaZulu-Natal will be topping the list. [Interjections.]

I hope my comrades and colleagues here will be sharing my dream that when one day, at about 2 a.m. when young people leave the nightclubs or any place that they have been where they can enjoy themselves, they are in a position to walk home without fear of any accident, rape or attack from our streets. That is an ideal that all of us share. We need to work towards that ideal. It is on that score that we are quite grateful about the announcement made by the Minister in which he tried to strengthen and make that dream a reality. We are trying to work in the province to create what is known as a united front against crime, where everybody works together and make sure that we close all the gaps where criminals are making an advance to destabilise and make sure that the lives of our people are not ideal as we would like them to see.

Dealing with this, we start as we did in Umzimkhulu area last week when we launched the co-operation of departments. We have been looking at all those departments in the provinces, beyond the ones that form the social cluster here. One department that we believe should be part of fighting and combating crime is the Department of Education. This department has tended to be the market of criminals. Most of the drugs that are produced, get marketed at our schools. Besides illegal firearms, drugs are part of the lives of our children at school. We believe that education must be brought on board to try and fight hard to be part of this front against crime.

General civil society should be part of that, but sometimes business do not get as involved as we would love to see it getting involved. This is my eighth week, if I am not mistaken, since I was appointed in the new responsibility that I am doing. We have already buried six policemen who were killed - which comes to almost one policeman a week that is being killed. I think it is one front on which we have to work much harder. It is on that score that I have invited the human rights organisations to be part of our finding the solution to this problem. When we try to be tougher in trying to find solutions to this, we seem to behave like big macho men or cowboys; especially when we say: Police have the right to defend themselves when they are shot at.

It looks like that statement was misinterpreted when the Minister was making his announcement of increasing the numbers of the police. I hope we are not going to have colleges that produce policemen and women who will be taken to the grave. These policemen and women must be part of society and must come back and do the exact job that they were trained for. The human rights and other civil organisations, NGOs and CPOs should be part of finding solutions on how to save our police and make sure that they are there to do the job. We cannot allow for the creation of new graves and leave that unchallenged.

I am from the province that has not built a single police station for the past ten years. There are only two police stations that are about to be finished, but before that no new stations were built. I am hopeful that the Minister and my colleagues will understand that in the most populous province we will build more police stations. There have been 57 requests for police stations to be built in the province. Yet, not a single new station was built for the past 10 years. That is a major challenge for us. We have tried to find a reason why these requests were made and yet nothing was built. You drive for an hour between the police stations in the area where they have requested those police stations. At any given point you need to drive for an hour from this particular community to reach the nearest police station. Their requests to have some police stations built in these areas are very genuine requests.

Looking at the issue of illegal firearms, sometimes it is baffling why those people who are opposed to strict gun control measures are making such a noise. I agree. Most of our people die because of these illegal firearms. As the figures have been given this afternoon, most of the illegal firearms used in crime once used to be legal, and we are sometimes careless. We would support this to make sure that these guys are controlled.

One other thing we need to add to this is the psychological disarming of society. You often see a mother on her way to the supermarket to buy a toy gun as a present. If you buy him or her a present at the age of eight, by the time he is 12 he will be looking for the real thing. You have geared and socialised that particular child in believing that having a gun is a good thing. At the age of 12 we are looking at the real thing and at the age of 14 we will lose that guy. It is up to us to make a call to say that one of the things that must be removed from every toy shop should be the toy guns. Those things must be sorted out. It will save a few of our children who are very enthusiastic to get hold of the real thing.

Over the past two days we have lost three people because of illegal firerarms. There was a party in Inanda, and after the party ended, they came back with illegal firearms. Three people, including the mother of the house, were ordered to kneel and pray. They were shot in the head while kneeling. I want to believe that it was caused by an illegal firearm in the hands of the enemy. We do need stricter control of firearms.

We will be working hard to root out domestic violence. We will be looking for real assistance in that regard. I feel we need to be harsher when it comes to domestic violence; the abuse of women and our children. We really cannot be kind and be seen as being soft on that. Unfortunately, I wonder how much training we have given so that our personnel are able to handle those sensitive cases. I do not think that the police personnel are negotiators. When somebody comes to the police station to report an abuse, instead of arresting the abuser, they try to negotiate with the woman to go back home. The result is that she will be dead the next day. I think it is one area in which we in the SA Police Service are still lacking. We need to give ourselves a push and say that our job is to protect our women and our children, and not to negotiate on their behalf and allow them to be further abused.

We would have loved to get more figures. I believe we will be able to get more as time goes on. We hope that vehicles will be provided to police personnel. I believe we still have a number of police personnel who cannot use vehicles. I do not know whether we encourage that kind of behaviour, and I know that all who come to the police station have a driver’s licence. There are still those in the system who cannot use those vehicles. When you phone them, they will tell you that there are no vehicles, which actually means that there are no licensed drivers. [Time expired.]

Mr T MAKGOE (Free State): Hon Deputy Chairperson, hon members, I think that the message from the MECs is very clear today, especially as it pertains to the killing of police officers. I concur fully with what the Minister for Safety and Security, Comrade Charles Nqakula, said during his budget speech on 22 June 2004, particularly on the outstanding performance of the SAPS members.

Quite correctly the majority of the SAPS members deserves accolades for discharging their duties and responsibilities with courage and distinction. For instance, the quick reaction by the SAPS members saw a swoop on an armed gang 15 minutes after robbing a wholesaler in Botshabelo in the Free State on 21 June 2004. The swift action of the SAPS members and the local community once again paid off after an escapee shot and killed two police officers at Reitz in the Free State on 5 June 2004. When cornered by members of the SAPS at Orange Farm in Gauteng on 18 July 2004, the suspect shot and killed himself. I am sure the message that came from the members of the community and the SAPS is that if you kill a police officer in the Free State, you will be forced to kill yourself.

There are quite a number of such commendable police-community deeds that include the creation of a secure and peaceful environment during the April 2004 election when the ANC was again mandated to ensure that the people continue to govern. The Government and the people of South Africa will, therefore, seize every opportunity to contemptuously decry the maiming and slaying of members of the SAPS on or off duty. Equally, we will remove all stops when dealing with those undeserving police officers who find it convenient and exciting to violate human rights of those of our people who are unsuspecting and sometimes unknowing, yet law-abiding. For instance, an avalanche of public complaints was received mainly from the Qwa Qwa area against some members of the SAPS. The reported complaints include cases of rape in police cells, assaults and verbal abuse of citizens. Some of these police officers are drunk 90% of the time. These untransformable and ill- disciplined Bantustan remnants are firmly determined to remind us of the past that we so much seek to forget.

The Free State provincial government has embarked upon numerous projects designed to monitor and measure the conduct and performance of the SAPS members. They include the following: The launching of a toll-free number, 0800 72 73 74, through which communities can register complaints against or compliment members of the SAPS; the placing of suggestion boxes in all Free State police stations to gather opinions; the commissioning of two community climate surveys during the 2002-03 and 2003-04 financial years to test the perceptions of the communities as the recipients of police service delivery; the extension of oversight responsibility of the provincial secretariat to include monitoring of police dismissals, suspensions, overall discipline, human resources and the promotion of women within the SAPS. I hope, hon Minister, that the next commissioner of the Free State is a female. [Interjections.]

In line with the national transformation agenda, a number of police station precincts have been redemarcated in the Free State in order to provide deracialised an equitable service delivery to all our communities. There is a tendency in South Africa that ensures that police stations in townships only serve communities in the townships and are not allowed to serve farming communities around those townships. We view this as racist and we are in the process of changing it in the Free State. The official opening of Mangaung Police Station by the hon Minister, Comrade Charles Nqakula, on 4 June 2004 is an appropriate example. Further redemarcation of police station precincts that are being implemented include the police stations of Parys and Tumahole - my hometown and that of the Chairperson of the ANC in our province, Comrade Ace Magashule - Sasolburg and Zamdela; Kroonstad and Maokeng; Thaba Nchu and Selosecha; and Welkom and Thabong.

History will judge us unfavourably if we neglect the present and future needs and interests of our young. A case in point involves a boy who, on 19 June 2004, was assaulted, abducted and taken to an initiation school on the outskirts of Masilonyana in Theunissen in the Free State. This boy was subsequently circumcised without his or his parents’ consent. The matter was reported to the local SAPS and to myself. Upon investigation, 39 initiates were found in two initiation schools. Their ages ranged between 15 and 21 years. They were all admitted to hospitals in Welkom and Virginia for treatment and were later released. Consequently, eight suspects were arrested and charged for assault and abduction, because there is a law in our province that regulates cultural activities. The Free State provincial government, through my department, then released a stern public warning that while the Constitution of South Africa allows for the expression of cultural and traditional beliefs, the Government would not tolerate the establishment and operation of initiation schools outside the dictates of either a national or a provincial law.

The public perception survey commissioned by my department during the 2003- 04 financial years revealed that 53% of the respondents were of the opinion that the major cause of crime was the high unemployment rate in the Free State. My department will be facilitating the establishment of the Free State youth development centre over the next MTEF period. The centre will provide skills training and enhance the employability levels of our youth and consequently impact on crime. On our visit to the Kroonstad prison, we found young people aged 12 and 13 in prison. I have engaged the MEC of Education about how they could make sure that these children continue to receive education, because if we do not do that, they will be lost to crime. They will start at age 12 and will end up being criminals for the rest of their lives.

Whereas our youth was unreservedly antagonistic toward the police authority of the previous regime, the 2004 Youth Day saw both members of the SAPS and our young people historically marching together under conditions of peace, stability and jubilation at Zamdela Stadium in the Free State.

When the people’s contract was signed on 14 April 2004, the ANC was mandated amongst others to deploy more than 150 000 police in active duty. In fulfilment of this popular commitment to our people, I have been informed by the police, and I can safely assure hon members that a total of 442 functional police officials and 291 civilian personnel will be recruited this financial year into the SAPS in the Free State. During our budget speech on 10 June 2004, I further made a plea to the councillors, church leaders and other prominent South Africans to encourage community members to join the reservists in the SAPS - and I had to do a lot of checking because I was not sure whether the ANC supports the policy of reservists and was assured that it does. That plea was made in line with the Minister’s call in the extended parliamentary committee on the recruitment of reservists. This recruitment drive will target unemployed youth and thereby boost our sector policing endeavours and enhance visible policing. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I am aware that most of you are making your maiden speeches, but unfortunately I cannot give you more time than that which has been allocated to you. Thank you very much.

Mr D A WORTH: Hon Chairperson, I am very pleased that the hon Minister of Safety and Security this afternoon touched on the question of the Firearms Control Act which comes into effect this Thursday, 1 July, in fact, tomorrow evening at midnight. The DA, of course, supports this Bill and any attempts to rid the country of some estimated three million illegal and homemade guns.

The Act, as we all know, aims to regulate the ownership and use of firearms, allowing background checks on those applying for a gun licence and restricting shooting to sport clubs and self-defence. However, as the deadline nears, there are fears that law-abiding citizens are being penalised by the lack of information and administrative capacity constraints within the department. Some two million legal firearms have to be registered. Law-abiding citizens should not be made criminals by default.

Some of the problems with regard to the implementation of the new Act are: Firstly, staff are somehow going to have to deal with the backlog of some 60 000 applications and the complicated procedures and appeals within the new system; secondly, the insufficient technology for weapon dealers to communicate electronically with the Firearms Registry in Pretoria; thirdly, the lack of information about the SABS approved institutions to deal with competency certificates and accreditation and training of such institutions; fourthly, what firearms owners are to do with the existing parts or ammunition that may be illegal from Thursday, 1 July; fifthly, whether sufficient police officers and officials have been trained to cope with the implementation of the new Act; and lastly, the lack of transparency and accountability in the licensing process.

The Minister of Safety and Security must meet with representatives of firearm associations, dealers and the security and hunting industries to address their concerns about the implementation of the Firearms Control Act. It is clearly not the intention of the Act to disarm the security industry, or to shut down firearms dealerships and professional hunting operations. The Act includes exemptions that should prevent this. If there are concerns that these exemptions are inadequate, these must be addressed.

Furthermore, public awareness campaigns regarding the implications of the Act need to be carried out by the department as a matter of urgency. In this regard, the Minister should publish a schedule of deadlines relating to the Act as soon as possible. I wish to state once again: Law-abiding citizens should not be made criminals by default. I thank you. [Applause]

Mr L RAMATLAKANE (Western Cape): Chairperson, it is difficult to talk after the DA which purports to be the shop-steward of the Gun Owners Association. However, I will leave that for the Minister to deal with. Let me first take this opportunity to congratulate the ANC on yet another victory achieved in the Western Cape. On 23 June 2004, five by-elections took place in a DA- controlled ward. The ANC won two of these DA-controlled wards. In one of them the ANC has taken control of the entire town. [Applause.] It means that this glorious movement must elect its mayor. It means that in the Western Cape our people are beginning to realise that the ANC is the party that carries the hope of all the people of this country: black, white, coloured and Indian.

Two weeks ago in the legislature, during the budget debate, we made it clear that the Western Cape is no longer an isolated province, but part of the rest of the country. On 14 April this year our people went to the poll, having a common understanding that they would want to see this province being governed by the party that has been the voice of all the people in this country since 1912 when it was established, the party that started delivering a better life for all our people since it took over after the 1994 democratic breakthrough. In the province we are ready to confront all the challenges head-on. The ANC-led provincial government is determined to make the Western Cape a home for all its people, black and white. It is for this reason that we have committed ourselves to work as a collective in ensuring that the level of crime and violence against women and children is reduced at all times.

It is no secret that the Western Cape is grappling with gangsterism, crime and organised crime. Some of these crimes, like gangsterism, are deeply rooted within affected communities. In fact, some communities see this as a way of life. Many innocent young children have died in the process of the gang turf wars in the Western Cape. When Premier Rasool last spoke in the provincial legislature, he committed all the provincial Ministers, including myself, to 20 service-delivery building blocks to the province of the Western Cape. Chief amongst these was the call made by the President that the security agencies arrest 200 identified high-flying criminals, and some of these, of course, are based in the Western Cape.

The President’s call was followed by the Premier’s call that in the first 100 days, three of these high-flyers should be arrested in the Western Cape. Two weeks ago our policemen and women further strengthened our case with the arrest of a drug lord, seizing mandrax tablets worth R3,5 million at the house of a well-known drug dealer in Elsies River.

As a part of our clampdown or take down-strategy, the Western Cape will start the implementation of the Prevention of Organised Crime Act, Poca, with a special focus on gang membership. We hope to receive full support from the national Government on all these endeavours. As demonstrated by law enforcement agencies that we walk the talk, seven gang members, in terms of the Poca Act, of Cisko Yakkies, the Americans and Dixie Boys, well- known gangs in the Cape Flats, are behind bars and are being prosecuted by various magistrate courts under the Poca legislation. The Western Cape government appreciates the support given by the national Government in ensuring that police personnel is increased in the Western Cape from what we inherited, 11 000 to 18 000 at the moment. This will increase to about 20 000 in 2006. We can clearly see that the said increase would make it possible for us to take back the streets and all the public places. We are happy that the 400 railway police are going to start training and take up their duties in January 2005. That means that will bring back much- needed safety to metro rail.

With respect to the Independent Complaints Directorate in the Western Cape, it is a considered view that the integrity of this directorate is critical for the important work of pursuing the Constitutional imperative. We can sum this up by saying that the attention being given to the ICD at the moment should be intensified for its optimal functioning in the province.

Understanding the direction that we must build partnerships with our people, we initiated an approach that is about people working together in tandem with Government and police in the fight against crime. This particular campaign was launched, as the Minister has already mentioned, in Khayelitsha on 9 February 2003 with 25 000 people. During December last year we met with 125 000 people in the province in a call for partnerships. More support became evident during the festive season when 3 000 volunteers, bambanani, ordinary people, put shoulder to the wheel, side by side with the police, to fight crime. As a provincial government we are investigating how we can make it possible that these 3 500 volunteers can be part of the Extended Public Works Programme in terms of getting a stipend of about R50 a day, but continue to work with the police in the fight against crime.

With bambanani against crime and a people’s contract to fight crime during December and January this year, we have witnessed a decline in general crime of 18% compared to the previous year. We also witnessed a decline of 34% on murder. For the same period, road fatalities declined by 32%. We dearly thank these volunteers.

President Thabo Mbeki has made this call that all of us must begin delivery, must bring Government programmes to our people, build a contract and make our communities safer. This brings me to another matter of public importance, namely the use and trade of drugs on the Cape Flats, and to our programmes to empower the community to fight this scourge.

The national Minister of Safety and Security, the Deputy Minister, the Premier and the MEC for education, addressed the community of Mitchell’s Plain last week, urging them to form this partnership in the crusade against drugs. Many young scholars have become victims of a new fashionable drug called tik-tik. The drug is highly addictive.

I am glad to announce that the men and women in blue in the SA Police Service have been hard at work, hunting down those who are dealing in drugs in general. We want to thank them dearly for their hard work, and tomorrow we will be tabling a business plan in Cabinet to say how we will take this process forward, and thereafter we will obviously seek engagement with the national Government for maximum support.

The Western Cape is on course to make this province a home for all its people. It is for this reason that work for the integrated criminal justice cluster should be intensified. We believe that when these agencies work hand in hand, we will be making a huge impact on crime and fighting crime.

This brings me to the issue of our Department of Correctional Services. It is matter of public knowledge that activities of some of the personnel at Pollsmoor prison leave much to be desired. We are told that corruption is rife at these facilities. When you hear a member of the public speak about the corruption in this institution, when you read a newspaper, when you listen to the radio, you will of course understand that something must be done at this institution. We need, as a matter of urgency, mechanisms to deal with gangs and gang subculture in Pollsmoor. It is said that the officials sometimes turn a blind eye on contraventions, such as the trafficking of drugs, in this institution. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, I want to indicate that I come from a movement committed to a better life for all and in our strategic quest for social justice and the establishment of a democratic constitutional order that gives effect to that life. The Department of Safety and Security is moving with pride and recording major achievements. These rest on problem solving that addresses the immediate and deep-rooted social causal factors which encourage social crime, and move towards creating an environment in which citizens can empower themselves in a manner that creates opportunities for a better life. However, we do so in the face of major challenges of developmental imbalances which require a fundamental environmental redesign to reduce crime. In this regard I want to quote from the socioeconomic profile of Batho Education in the Free State which we are targeting for a holistic development to fight crime. The profile reflects the developmental imbalances in our country:

Almost the whole police station area suffers from a lack of streetlights. Only masts with floodlights have been erected. The results are many dark places exist in the area, street names do not appear on street corners, resulting in members of the SAPS having to ask around to identify streets when there is a crisis. A large open space without houses exists.

I think those who know the Free State there will know there is a place called Freedom Square which is an informal settlement. The residents in this area use this open space as a thoroughfare. This open space is very dark at night, as no lights have been erected there. The place is strewn with boulders behind which persons can hide and then attack defenceless victims, ending in rape, robbery and even murder. I hope those who come from the Free State are conversant with these kinds of problems. Of course, they are not only prevalent in the Free State, but also in the rest of our country.

Our National Crime Prevention Strategy is informed by a comprehensive set of factors which include the above conditions. It emphasises entrenched economic strain and deprivation, low education levels, a legacy of a poor human rights culture, high rates of urbanisation, high levels of illegal gun ownership and alcohol abuse, radical socioeconomic and political transition, repeat victimisation risks and the impact of HIV/Aids on crime. The profile, however, only tells us the what, where, when and the how of crime. It not only gives us an indication of the immense problem faced by ourselves in South Africa, but also the police.

Since the adoption of the National Crime Prevention Strategy in 2000, the police have launched major law enforcement projects and other programmes intended to improve the overall functions of the criminal justice system. There are also crime prevention programmes aimed at complementing law enforcement. The social crime prevention unit, which is one of them, continues to focus on building community policing and community-based partnerships for crime prevention with stakeholders in Government and civil society. Policing tools like sector policing play a role in this regard, but the service has also developed resource manuals to support crime prevention partnerships, with information like the designing of safer places and manuals for crime prevention through environmental design. Programmes that improve service delivery such as the victim empowerment programmes are cornerstones of crime prevention as they build trust and confidence in the police as a partner in the prevention programmes.

In its social crime prevention programmes, police focus specifically on violence against women and children, recognising that cycles of violence that start in the home contribute to intergenerational cycles of violence. Investment in breaking those cycles of violence therefore has long-term benefits. For this reasons the role of police in dealing with domestic violence should not be underestimated. The correct response from a police member is not only the enforcement of the law or the criminal justice process that will result in the punishment of the offender. Supporting a victim and referring her to other social service providers is important. Therefore, the police can assist the victim and the family to break free early in the cycle of violence.

The police contribute to all three focused areas of the interdepartmental antirape strategy - prevention programmes for rape, improved investigations of rape cases and better services to victims. Victim-friendly facilities are of particular benefit to victims of gender-based violence as they enable statements of victims to be taken in privacy within a friendly environment. In our last financial year, the police provided assistance for the establishment of victim-friendly facilities at 143 police stations throughout the country. I hope that the 57 police stations which will be established in KwaZulu-Natal are constructed in such a way that they are friendly so as to enhance the combating of violence against women. Training on generic victim-friendly services and domestic violence services provision were provided for 2 424 police members in the past year. In recognition of the continued need to improve the skills of police members to deal with domestic violence, a comprehensive new training programme is being finalised and is about to swing into practice.

In its programme for children and young people, the police focus on reducing the risk of children becoming victims of crime or offenders. The Captain Crime Stop project for young children, which I witnessed in Khayelitsha, raises awareness about children’s rights and how the police can assist them. Other programmes like adopt-a-cop is aimed at building relationships of trust with children, raising awareness about the risks related to crime and assisting school safety activities.

The National Commissioner has initiated pilot projects for street children in Sunnyside and Hillbrow, in conjunction with other departments and NGOs. The programme has realised the development of integrated community-based crime prevention strategies in Thohoyandou, uMhlathuzi and KwaDukuza.

The police focus on improving access to policing, police service delivery and crime prevention as part of the integrated work plan of the urban renewal programme and the integrated sustainable rural development programme. A crime prevention programme has been implemented in Mdantsane and Motherwell in the Eastern Cape. This is an integrated programme to mobilise action and encourage participation at community level around strategic crime prevention interventions. As you may be aware, community or consensus policing has always been our vision. Police must be visible and not be involved in ``fire brigade policing’’. We want an integral approach where communities are accepted as largely responsible for prosecution, to lay charges, make statements, testify in our courts and assist the police with whom they have a relationship of reciprocal control.

However, the role of the community must not be confused in policing operational matters. Communities cannot be involved in police databases, criminal records and finger printing, maintenance of forensic laboratories or specialised crime units such as organised crime or certain types of public order policing, for obvious reasons.

Over and above our efforts to concentrate on the generators of contact crime, the police will intensify their efforts this year to implement sector policing. The increase in police visibility not only serves as a crime deterrent; it also contributes to an increased feeling of safety and security among communities. Our focus this year will be on the 63 contact crime priority areas. This will include implementing sector policing plans based on the profiles of the stations, deploying sector policing teams during each police shift, establishing partnerships with all role-players to ensure a multidimensional approach to contact crimes, and recruiting sector policing reservists for each area.

The police have already completed a practical implementation model for a sector policing which consists of examples taken from various police stations, to serve as an initiator and to enhance the successful implementation of sector policing. The Minister has indicated the example of Thembisa. This manual will form our primary guidelines for the initiative in the 63 areas. At the beginning of last year we launched a voluntary counselling and testing programme contributing to identification and registration on disease management programmes.

Lastly, we realise the increasing need to focus on physical fitness for the policewomen and men. We are in the process of establishing physical fitness centres in all provinces. This will ensure that we do not end up with an obese police force that might not be able to cope and deal with crime because of a lack of fitness. Therefore it is a challenge also to the communities to say that since the police participate in these programmes, they would also ensure that they are physically fit. Only then will they make sure that in combating crime they are able to chase the criminals and catch them - even if they go down into the deepest hole. They will do so because of their fitness, but it will also contribute to a healthy community. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr F CACHALIA (Gauteng): Chairperson, the Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, Minister and Deputy Minister, colleagues, it is really quite a privilege for me as a newly appointed MEC to have this opportunity to address the NCOP for the first time in the presence of the Minister and the Deputy Minister.

Let me begin with some responses to issues raised by the Minister. He must surely be right to observe that one of our greatest achievements over the past 10 years - if, for only a moment, we reflect on where we have come from - is the transformation of the Police Service from an instrument of the apartheid state into a Police Service that is appropriate in a democracy and which serves all the safety concerns of the citizens of the country. I also concur with the Minister that if we are going to succeed in combating the scourge of crime in our country, it is crucial that we mobilise communities as part of that endeavour. When communities establish effective community policing forums, when they provide the police with information on suspicious activities, when they interact with their sector managers, when they demand street lighting, they are helping the police not only to prevent crime, but also to combat crime. I can confirm that in Tembisa sector policing has played a major role in significantly reducing the levels of crime in that community.

I am sure, hon Minister, that the people of Mamelodi will be very pleased to hear you say that that community will receive special attention when it comes to the implementation of social crime prevention programmes. Since my appointment, I have visited Mamelodi on three occasions. The crime problem in Mamelodi is very serious and I think a lot can be done to improve the functioning of the CPF there and the service delivery of the police in Mamelodi. I think the people of Gauteng will also be very pleased to hear the Minister make particular mention of a problem that we have been experiencing in Gauteng recently - the placing of rocks on roads by criminals. There is the incident that the Minister mentioned at the Grassmere Toll Plaza. We have also had other incidents at the Buccleuch Interchange, and the people of Gauteng will be pleased to hear the Minister indicate that a proactive approach is being adopted to prevent these problems.

I do want to say to the Minister that I think that the Police Service should be encouraged to adopt a proactive approach. Simply improving visible policing in high-risk areas is not a sustainable strategy, and ways have to be found to ensure that the SAPS, the metro police, the traffic police employed at provincial level, local government and the road regulatory authorities all have a role to play in developing a comprehensive approach.

I want to express in the strongest terms support for the Minister’s initiatives to introduce measures for stricter gun control. There can hardly be any question that one of the main risk factors in the scourge of violent crime that we face in our country is the proliferation of guns. The Centre for the Study of Violence and Reconciliation recently published a report that showed that there was a connection between guns and the high levels of femicide in South Africa, which apparently is among the highest in the world. There is a high incidence in the use of guns. Some of those guns, by the way, which are basically responsible for the killing of women in domestic situations, are legal guns. I do think it would have been more helpful in this debate on gun control if the hon members of the DA had stated very clearly whether or not they supported the policy and the purpose behind this legislation, rather than to obscure that question by reliance on process-type arguments, which is an indirect way of casting doubt as to the appropriateness of this legislation.

In the ANC’s manifesto there is a strong commitment to combating crime and to creating a safer community, and those commitments have been incorporated into the budgets and programmes of provincial governments and the national Government. I think it is quite appropriate that we should be concerned about how the criminal justice system is resourced; that we should applaud the employment of more police officers; and that we should agree that the steps that we have taken to strengthen our sentencing laws, for instance, by introducing mandatory sentencing; are appropriate responses to the challenge we face of combating violent crime. However, I think it is also important to recognise, as the President observed, that narrowly punitive responses are not the answer to the crime problem we face in South Africa.

Surely, one of our commitments must be to reduce, over time, the rates of arrest and incarceration in our society. What we must recognise is that there is a strong connection between our developmental agenda and our safety agenda. When we create jobs, when we fight poverty, we are also fighting crime. When we provide children with secure families, with access to education, with access to health services; when we attack child poverty

• our premier announced recently in his opening address to the legislature a comprehensive programme for alleviating poverty faced by children - we are fighting crime, because the research is clear: children who grow up with the necessary support structures are able to avoid crime.

Similarly, we know that imposing criminal sanctions is not the only way to fight against the abuse of women and children. The economic and social measures which are introduced which empower women to be economically independent of their potential abusers, are also part of the strategy of combating the abuse of women in our society. I want to say that I am very pleased that Deputy Minister Susan Shabangu has been given the responsibility to focus on social crime prevention. We have to recognise that this is an essential and fundamental aspect of our strategy to combat crime.

Finally, I would like to make some observations about co-operative governance and its relationship to social crime prevention. It seems to be appropriate to make such observations in the National Council of Provinces, which is at the centre of the system of co-operative governance that we have created. I am convinced, hon Deputy Minister, that part of our problem with social crime prevention is that we tend to think, certainly in the provinces, of social crime prevention as the responsibility of the department of community safety, but to me it is quite clear that the only way in which our social crime prevention programmes are going to be effective, is if they are integrated vertically across departments and horizontally across the spheres of government.

Local governments have a very important role to play in developing social crime prevention strategies. Some of the cities in Gauteng are developing city safety plans. I think one of our challenges is to ensure, certainly in the provinces, that we are able to develop co-operative arrangements with local government to ensure maximum impact of our social crime prevention strategies. Could I suggest in the presence of the Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces - Gauteng can at least claim you sometimes - that the National Council of Provinces is perhaps the one area which can really make a contribution to safety issues by strengthening the focus on co-operative governance responses to the challenge of social crime prevention. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Mr P MOLOTO (Limpopo): Chairperson, hon Minister, Deputy Ministers present here today, colleagues from other provinces, members of the NCOP, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, this year’s anniversary of the Freedom Charter Day, June 26, was launched with a new book called The Road to Democracy. This book, together with other books such as Long Walk to Freedom as said by our President, will help us to address the other goals of inculcating in the youth a love for our people and culture. Indeed, these books will help our youth to understand where we come from, and not to be ignorant of the events that led up to where we are today.

Tomorrow, as we will be drawing to a close of the youth month of June, we will certainly not be drawing to a close an end of memories of the youth of yester-years who donated their youthful bodies to cushion the everlasting bed for democracy.

The police in Limpopo have taken the centre stage in service delivery. In his remarks, when presenting the Impumelelo Award in Cape Town in March, Comrade Kader Asmal said: ``The cops in Limpopo are not corpses; they are alive.’’ Yes, indeed they are alive! On that day they won a platinum award, and thereafter proceeded to win an international award from the UN for service delivery to the rural areas of our province. [Applause.]

This is a clear indication that they have embraced the democratic agenda of our country. The award winning mobile community centre can render at the same time the following services: opening of case dockets, documents certification, and at the same time it makes police patrol visible.

The hon Minister, Comrade Charles Nqakula was present at our service delivery excellence award in March. Transformation within the police service was very evident. Two police stations that are being headed by women scooped the most important awards. This goes to prove, as the court would say, beyond any reasonable doubt the efficiency and effectiveness of women in a profession long dominated by men.

We also take pride in saying that our initiative of the Premier’s Service Excellence Award Competition is proving to be a morale booster to the police officials and a source of inspiration to management.

Whilst we can say that crime in Limpopo has decreased, we continue to be deeply disturbed about the continued incidents of contact crimes. Many of you will remember a horrendous incident that happened at Medingen, near to Tzaneen, when three little girls were killed by a man said to be their father. Memories of the Mabeba girls - Mosibudi (6) Morongwa (3) and Matshidiso (1) - will always haunt us as a perpetual sign of violence against women and children.

These horrendous crimes prompted us to commission the CSIR to research their root causes. The interim report has since been submitted to us, and we are entering the stages of implementation.

Related to the incidents of violence against women and children, is the issue of firearms control. Those whose firearms are being used to perpetuate violence against others should have their licences revoked. Recently we had a case of a farmer shooting in full view of other workers a person and later claiming that he mistook that person for a baboon.

Earlier on I spoke about the good work that the police in Limpopo are doing. We will remember the arrest of the Boeremag and the uncovering of their arms caches. The discovery and the resultant arrests of the perpetrators transporting the biggest abalone containers is known. All of the above are milestones in excellent police work.

However, the recent arrest of the mercenaries in Zimbabwe and the confiscation of a truck carrying illegal cigarettes worth millions emphasise, especially for our province, the severity of our problems if the security at our airports, landing strips and border posts is compromised. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr Z S KOLWENI: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister and Deputy Ministers, MECs in the House, my colleagues, ladies and gentlemen, I rise to present this speech as prepared by my MEC Maureen Modiselle who could not make it here today. May I also submit her humble apologies.

Deputy Minister Gillwald mentioned in her budget speech that current strategies cannot continue. We already know that the SAPS has over the past 10 years demonstrated patent improvements in its investigative capacity. So too has the National Prosecuting Authority improved the rate of prosecution, on almost all fronts.

The supply-side pressure on our department resulting from this improved capacity, in both SAPS and NPA, has swelled the number of inmates to record levels. To say that the department is under severe pressure to accommodate both inmates and awaiting-trial detainees is an understatement of gargantuan proportions. In a nutshell, we have the capacity to accommodate 113 000 inmates and the current prison population stands at 187 000, which includes the awaiting-trial detainees population of 53 880. That is nearly one third of the total inmate population.

Crime prevention marks one alternative. However, it is common knowledge that without support, co-ordination and drive, an intervention will not - with the attendant complexities of crime prevention which have many stakeholders and are cross-discipline, and with results that are only evident over the long term - achieve its true potential.

For too long, we have simply assumed that the SAPS will take the lead. This was reinforced through moving the National Crime-Prevention Strategy into the SAPS. The recent SAPS restructuring of crime prevention into a new programme entitled Visible Policing'' to replace the programmes crime prevention and operational response services’’ marks the final realisation that it is not the SAPS that is responsible for crime prevention. Rather, it is one role-player among many that need to engage in crime prevention.

South Africa’s current developmental paradigm needs a strong crime- prevention approach. The alternative is to imprison more and more, unless we turn the tide. Successful crime prevention requires an understanding and prioritisation of the possible causal factors behind the main crime threats facing a particular locality. Around these, an intervention strategy needs to be developed, taking into consideration existing efforts and identifying gaps. Progress needs to be measured and evaluated and the necessary changes effected. All these need to be underpinned by a partnership of the involvement of service providers and beneficiaries.

The entire process needs to be focused. Ideally, this needs to be happening within an institution that is sustainable. As crime prevention takes time to show results, it has the stature and authority to attract new partners and keep them focused on and committed to the task in an environment of competing political needs. It should be located at an efficient local level in order to maximise impact. Local municipalities must meet most of these criteria.

To promote crime prevention, some of the following issues can be considered. The resource allocation to crime prevention remains limited and completely overshadowed by that allocated to reactive responses to crime. Government can support both civil society, as well as crime-prevention activities of departments themselves. Many departments can make a huge impact by undertaking crime-prevention actions within their own core mandates. The idea of a crime-prevention centre - be it at national, provincial or local level that will offer support through monitoring, evaluation, and training and development - needs to be pursued. The importance of knowledge-based intervention, proper monitoring and evaluation cannot be underestimated. South Africa needs to document, evaluate, disseminate and build on best practices. The state can play a crucial role of facilitating, co-ordinating and providing resources.

Careful evaluation and support of the integrated development planning process, IDP, in terms of the extent to which it promotes a safer and secure community, is important; so too is support of multi-stakeholder partnerships. Legislative framework mechanisms aimed at facilitating interaction between spheres of government, in the form of intergovernmental forums which can add value to an IDP infrastructure - such as the intergovernmental relations Bill - need to be pursued and promoted.

Alcohol and crime represent a particular nexus and a number of prevention interventions can be considered. Provincial legislation needs to be put in place and the national drug master plan needs to be reinvigorated. It was stated that a dedicated person needs to be appointed at provincial level, and that such a person would deal specifically with substance abuse and co- ordinate activities of different departments.

Clear strategies on how to use tax resources such as those applied in Australia need to be considered. There, alcohol taxes go into skills training and a whole range of initiatives, such as school-based programmes and programmes that address domestic violence. Interventions are carefully monitored and evaluated for impact against set targets.

Regarding departments and crime prevention, the following issues need to be taken into consideration. Strengthening law-enforcement capacity and approaches can contribute to effectiveness and speedier turnaround times. Confidence needs to be built and this will help contribute towards deterring crime. There should be a prioritisation of cases ie detectives need to be allocated to highly solvable cases. There is a need for more extensive and regular analysis of impact of different strategies. Proactive strategies such as targeted patrols, sector policing, and problem-solving policing need to be strengthened. An awareness of diversion options for minor offences needs to be developed. A relationship with local authorities should be built to improve the flow of information in order to develop appropriate responses.

There should be improved efficiency in the justice sector. The skills and capacity of court staff should be improved. The Child Justice Bill should be implemented and extended to all provinces. The criminal justice process time should be reduced. There should be collaboration with other criminal justice system partners; and an effective and appropriate justice system needs to be implemented.

There needs to be promotion and support of research on offender reintegration. The impact of imprisonment regarding communities has to be considered. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr Z C NTULI: Chair, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister, hon MECs, hon members, on 28 March 1996, Comrade President Thabo Mbeki had the following to say, and I quote:

Only through linking our collective resources, and through maximising the synergy of combined actions, will we be able to effect the socioeconomic changes our society requires.

The core feature of the people’s contract is to get our Government, together with our people, working towards a better life for all, hand in hand, our people participating in changing their lives for the better.

The Department of Safety and Security cannot be isolated from this approach. We have the responsibility to make many of our people more active in the justice system. It greatly helps that NGOs, traditional leaders, municipal structures, the business fraternity, religious leaders and the youth - through community policing forums - consider crime-prevention campaigns as a responsibility for us all. In doing so, we shall succeed in providing community services to improve the effectiveness of our justice system. Community police forums play an important role in mobilising the people against crime, and bridging the communication gap between communities and the police services.

The building of a peaceful and stable democracy in South Africa is hampered by the excessive prevalence of guns - both licensed and unlicensed - in the hands of citizens. This is a legacy of the conflict of the past and the lawlessness it engendered, as well as the lack of confidence in the state security services of the past. We need to campaign for strong action against perpetrators of violent crimes in order to change South Africans’ attitudes towards gun possession and the culture which encourages children to glorify violence and ownership of guns.

Because I come from KwaZulu-Natal, I shall not have fairly represented voters without mentioning that we need to ensure a speedy reclaiming of weapons distributed by the apartheid regime on a permit system, such as the G3s.

Policing must be visible. The reason for promoting a visible police force is simply that the police must be in touch with their communities. They should patrol both on foot and in cars, and interact with their communities. Police must be welcomed at community gatherings. They should not lurk in armoured cars or behind barbed wire garrisons as they did before. This requires a new emphasis on area specialists - policemen who know the community they serve, rather than technical experts; an emphasis on smaller, accessible police stations, rather than large and impersonal fortresses.

Police must be seen, and see themselves as the guardians of human rights, generally, and the Constitution in particular. Police should be required to be politically nonpartisan in the performance of their duties. In the long term, the police must assume the constitutional profile of a guardian of the Constitution and not the instrument of any political party. This is not to deny the right of any policeman to join a political party or trade union of his choice, but it is about placing limits on the political profile and involvement of such a policeman. Local station commanders should not be seen canvassing or holding office in any political party.

Furthermore, the broader policing function must be subjected to greater multiparty scrutiny through the bodies of elected representatives at local, regional and national government levels, and it should not be the concern of only one party. There must be reappraisal and redirection of police training, not only to educate trainees in more effective investigative and technical skills, but also in the use of alternatives to violence in solving problems and, more generally, on the importance of human rights - both now and in the future.

Training will be a central component of reform and transformation of the police, in place of the correspondence courses currently favoured. Training should be skills-based, on the job and it should recognise talent and experience rather than certificates. Special attention should be given to former Bantustan and TBVC areas. There still exist out there police officers who openly declare political allegiance in the course of duty and that is against the constitutional mandate of the SAPS.

Bekungaba ngcono ukuba usekhona lapha uQabane uBheki ngoba ngifuna ukusho ukuthi, laphaya KwaZulu-Natal, isekhona le nhlese kumbe inhlesana yamaphoyisa asadla ngoludala. Kunamaphoyisa asacabanga njengoba kwakwenza ama-ZPs, amaPhoyisa akwaZulu.

Ngizokhuluma ngiqonde ngqo. Laphaya esiteshini saseMlazi kunomqondisi ongakawuboni umehluko wokuthi akuseyona i-ZP lena ekhona manje, sekuyiSAPS. Usazishayela nje ngoludala kangangokuthi uma ukhuluma naye uze akutshele ukuthi yena uyiliphi iqembu. Uma ngabe uthi uyamkhuza ngokuthi, ``Hhayi bo, phela njengoba ungumqondisi lapha, ungathathi izinhlangothi kwezepolitiki’’, uye athi uma usho njalo ngeke avote ngoba phela uma umuntu engathathi hlangothi kusho ukuthi akavoti. [Uhleko.]

Sithi-ke thina, Ngqongqoshe ohloniphekile, abaphathi abanjenga lona ophethe isiteshi lapha eMlazi sebephelelwe isikhathi. Kungcono ashintshwe Ngqongqoshe, ukuze sibone ukuthi ngeke yini mhlawumbe ashintshe indlela acabanga ngayo. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[I wish Comrade Bheki was still here because I want to say that there is a group of policemen in KwaZulu-Natal who are still holding on to the past. There are policemen who still think like the ZPs, Zulu Police.

If I may say, in uMlazi police station there is a director who has not yet seen the difference between the ZPs and the SAPS. He is still holding on to the past in such a way that when you speak to him, he even tells you to which political party he belongs. If you try to convince him that as a director he cannot take political sides, he says you mean he cannot vote because if he is not affiliated to any political party, it means one does not vote. [Laughter.]

We are saying to the hon Minister that managers like the one who heads uMlazi police station should have their time lapsed. It will be for the best, Minister, if he is transferred if he cannot change his attitude.]

As the ANC, we regard our municipal police system as an important element in our plan to extend the policing services to the broadest spectrum of South Africans. We understand the strains under which they must sometimes work, and that people may not always be co-operative towards them. However, when they signed up, they made a commitment to fulfil their duties in an impartial and respectful manner. Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr B J MKHALIPHI: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister, our hon MECs and all colleagues, this afternoon I am truly a permanent delegate. I will be presenting this speech on behalf of my hon MEC, Pogisho Phasha, who could not make it to this gathering. Our history has been a bitter one; dominated by colonialism, racism, apartheid, sexism and repressive labour policies. The result is that poverty and degradation exist side by side with modern cities and a developed mining, industrial and commercial infrastructure. Our income distribution was racially distorted and was ranked as one of the most unequal in the world. Lavish wealth and abject poverty characterised our society.

Passionately and with purpose we are focusing on restoring the socioeconomic imbalances in our society, bringing institutional reforms in the public sector, and to entrenching the ethos of Ubuntu through restitutional reforms, redress, reconciliation, reconstruction and moral regeneration. Only an all-round effort to harness the life experiences, skills, energies and aspirations of our people will lay the basis for a new democratic order free from want, ill-health and fear.

In order to deal with the budget for 2004-05, it would be proper to outline some of the successes attained that we should jealously guard, and reinforce the gains made thus far. During 2003 the SAPS in Mpumalanga set specific policing priorities and objectives with regard to crime, in line with the nationally identified priority crimes. These were organised crime; serious and violent crime; crime against women and children; improved basic service delivery to all communities and human resources.

There was a significant decrease in high profile cases of aggravated robbery. Hijacking of motor vehicles decreased by 20,2% and bank-related robberies by 15,4%. Both these categories of crime have reached the lowest levels recorded since 1996-97. Despite these gains in the fight against crime, some categories of crime have shown increases. These include aggravated robbery and street robbery, especially in informal settlements, former black townships and even rural areas. Added to that are robberies at residential and business premises. The contributory factor in the increase in this category of crime can, in part, be attributed to alcohol and drug abuse.

In keeping with the Government’s commitment to enhance its effectiveness in reducing crime, we are pleased to announce that the budget of the SAPS in Mpumalanga for 2004-05 is R222,8 million, effectively an increase of R34,3 million from the previous revised baseline allocation of R188,5 million. An additional amount of R9,3 million has been allocated for overtime.

An amount of R39,2 million has been earmarked for the purchase of approximately 379 vehicles. In addition, 848 officers will be appointed in this financial year. The bulk of these additional resources will be directed to those areas most in need so that the response time, as well as the aspect of service delivery, can be improved.

Based on the experiences of the past and the crime trends, the SAPS in Mpumalanga has identified the following strategic priorities for the medium term: Firstly, to combat organised crime, focusing on drug and fire-arm trafficking, vehicle theft and hijacking, as well as commercial crime and corruption among public officials; secondly, serious and violent crime, for which strategies have been developed to, among others, counter the proliferation of firearms, improve safety and security in high crime areas, combat crimes such as taxi violence and maintain security at major public events; thirdly, to focus on strategies to reduce the incidence of crimes committed against women and children and improving the investigation and prosecution of these crimes and, fourthly, to improve overall service delivery at police stations.

Policing visibility will be enhanced by implementing sector policing as part of the crime prevention strategy as a partnership between police officers, appointed sector management and communities. A recruitment process in terms of which funds have been provided to increase the number of personnel will support this approach. This labour input will be complimented by a concomitant expansion of the department’s vehicle fleet, equipment supplies and IT infrastructure.

In line with the President’s state of the nation address, the SAPS of Mpumalanga have committed themselves to arrest at least 30 of the most wanted criminals in the first 100 days of our third democratic Government. In due course, we will inform the legislature on the progress made in this regard.

The victim empowerment programme, in partnership with the department of health and social services and Business Against Crime, is a key intervention for improving the services to the public. Victim support centres are provided to enable statements of intimate violence, such as rape, sexual offences, child abuse and domestic violence, to be made in private. To date, victim support centres have been established in 42 of our 91 police stations in the province. An additional 10 support centres will be established in the present financial year.

We cannot underestimate the role of communities in identifying the problems and challenges in combating and preventing crime. By empowering communities through broad-based public education, be it electronic, media or print, we can promote the role and responsibility of members of society in complementing all the efforts of the different institutions of the criminal justice system and other organs of state.

Public education and the prevention of crime are facilitated by various strategies such as holding anticrime rallies, campaigns at schools on drug abuse, sexual abuse, violence and illegal weapons. Alcohol and drugs provide our youth with a false sense of security. Peer pressure needs to be dealt with in partnership with the educational institutions.

In addition, hon members, anticrime school games will be encouraged as a means of advocating anticrime messages and providing recreation in those areas without infrastructure. Both soccer and netball will be encouraged. This will be a joint effort between the department of education and culture, the department of sports and recreation and us.

In conclusion, the call for Africa’s renewal, for an African renaissance, is a call to rebellion. We must rebel against the tyrants and the dictators, those who seek to corrupt our societies and steal the wealth that belongs to our people. We must rebel against the ordinary criminals who murder, rape and rob, and conduct war against poverty, ignorance and the backwardness of the children of Africa. I thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, obviously in responding to the debate of this morning and this afternoon, one cannot really respond to every single issue raised. However, I want to assure members that we have made notes of the issues they have raised in respect of the Department of Justice, and we will deal with every single one of them in due course. If you want us to give you a report back, either in the committee or in a session like this, we will do so. So, I am not going to respond to all of them.

I want to make a few general observations about the challenges we face in the criminal justice system, because if you look at the debate today, the underlying theme of the debate is the problems we are facing in the criminal justice system and how we are trying to address them. I want to make a few general observations for us to think about and debate as we go forward, because if we do not do so and we only look at specific little issues, I think we will lose the broader picture.

I think many debates in the criminal justice system results in finger pointing. Things go wrong, in the sense that the police, the prosecutor or someone else has not done their job properly. Of course, that is a useless debate. It does not take us anywhere and it does not solve any problems. If you actually check in each individual case, you will probably find that either all of them, or at least half are to blame in the process for the kind of problems we face.

Therefore, that kind of response is not going to work anymore. It has to be a multidisciplinary response which addresses the systemic problems that we face. That is what Cabinet and Government have been doing more and more as we go along, and it has become more and more successful, and we are doing so in trying to get this multidisciplinary response to matters. Therefore, obviously, it is not easy to address all of these challenges, but I want to raise a few, just to remind us when we look at this debate. The first issue is that we keep on forgetting that we are in transition. We are a society in transition. You do not have to be a genius to read the literature on societies in transition to see that those types of societies have their own unique problems. In fact, these problems are very similar in each of these countries. One of the problems always arises within your justice system, particularly in your criminal justice system, because a society in transition, of course, is trying to replace the old with the new. In replacing the old with the new, of course, it creates instability, insecurity and cracks in the system, where things fall through the cracks sometimes.

That is one of the things we have to realise. We are that society in transition and we are getting better at dealing with it. However, in the process, as we are getting stronger and better at what we are doing, we must realise that that is the type of society we are dealing with. You are not dealing here with the United States of America. So it is useless to compare the things we are doing here with societies that have been democracies for 300 years. If you want to compare us, compare us with the United States 300 years ago when it had its revolution. If you read about that revolution, you will see that it was a society in transition that had enormous problems, perhaps even the exact problems that we face now, only maybe in a different form. Therefore, the first thing that we have to do in our debate, is to recognise that we are a society in transition and that we have to find solutions to this society in transition.

Secondly, the issue about the legislation that we have passed is a response, and usually it is a harsh and inflexible response, to the kind of problems we are facing, which is particularly around crime. So if you look at the bail laws, for example, they are incredibly tough laws. If you go and compare them with other bail laws in the world, and although they have been declared to be constitutional, they are incredibly tough in terms of their putting the onus on the accused in very serious crimes.

Now, what did we think was going to be the response when we passed a law like that? The response is fuller prisons. If you look back to when prisons started getting more and more overcrowded in terms of awaiting-trial prisoners, it started in 1995, when those laws were passed. A year or so after that, the minimum sentence law was passed. The consequences of our responding to those laws in the way we did, of course, also created certain problems for us in the system. It also creates solutions in the sense that it does keep the worst amongst us in prison for longer periods of time, but of course it has a negative spin-off.

Then, the third issue I want to raise is the issue of management. I think in this society we generally have a problem with management. We have the problem in civil society and the private sector, and we definitely have that problem in the public sector. We should acknowledge that, as well. That is not going to change overnight. It is not only in terms of the people we have in this country, and here the issue is not black and white. The issue is just a general problem we have. It is also the kind of management systems that we have in this country. We have inherited them from a system that did not look at empowering and capacitating people, and therefore the management systems that we have are very bad. So management is a problem.

If you come to the criminal justice system, it even becomes more problematic because it is like a pipe that runs across many departments. You cannot have an excellent department and think that if you are great, and your department does everything correct, that the criminal justice system is going to work. At the very least, all the departments have to work together correctly and see how they impact on each other. That is the problem with it. If you have management problems, that of course gets exacerbated. Look at the further problems we have. You can only manage there where the law tells you to manage and where the law empowers you to do so. The police, for example, have laws that regulate them. In terms of the law they have a certain way of working and of managing the police. In justice we have the same when we deal with the prosecutors, and so on and so on.

Where the problem lies, is where these structures work with each other. That’s where we don’t have synergy. We don’t have laws, accountability or responsibilities of any kind or nature, because the law doesn’t provide for that. For example, if the police draft a docket, and then hand it to the prosecuting authority, what happens there in terms of that relationship with regards to what you can do and what you can’t do, and who you can hold responsible and whom you can’t, does not exist.

In many societies that are older democracies, laws do not necessarily govern those relationships, but conventions do. However, our democracy is ten years old. We do not have those conventions yet. They haven’t really developed. Therefore, it is very important for us to actually start identifying - the Deputy Minister of Correctional Services started speaking about it this morning - these synergies between departments where we have not yet created conventions and so on, to work together. She mentioned a simple one - people who are in prison as a result of not being able to pay their bail of R100. There are people like that, but then, of course, we have passed a law a few years ago, to deal with people like that. We created a special mechanism to get them out of prison. A law like that exists. They should not be in prison. If they are in prison, someone is not doing his or her work. The problem there is that that person is in prison, in correctional services, but correctional services do not appear in the courts. You need to create a mechanism whereby every week the prison administration identifies persons who could not pay their bail of R100 or R500 and hence should not be in prison in terms of the Act. They should be able to have that responsibility and then take those names to the prosecuting authority.

Someone in the prosecuting authority dealing with those prisons then needs to say that they are going to take these matters to court, and so on. It happens in some places. Here in Mitchell’s Plain they do that. They have a system that works like that, but the problem is that this is only one example. The law exists. We have to create the mechanism for every prison in this country. So, I can go on and on and give you examples of how our departments should be able to sit down and work out where we touch upon each other and what mechanism exists and which do not. I am not saying that that is going to solve all the problems, but that will go some way also in creating this.

What you then do with those mechanisms is that you put them in a protocol, a law, or a guideline that everyone has to abide by. What it does, is it enables Ministers to actually start managing the process, because now, if you ask someone why something has not been done, there is a system that shows who was responsible. You can start holding people responsible.

Managers, the ones who are sitting here, can actually start doing their work better because the systems are in place to do so. Those are some of the other issues.

I think another issue we need to look at very seriously, is the kind of statistics that we have. Each department has a bit of statistics, and if you were to put all of that together, you would be able to work out much more scientifically where we should be going, and how we should be dealing with issues. Somehow statistics seem to be very important, obviously, because people hold on very tightly to them. They keep them very close to their chests for some reason.

The point is that we have to find a mechanism in the criminal justice system of getting all this information together so that we can also arrive at our decisions much more scientifically. Those are some of the general points I wanted to make in this debate, because I think that as we go ahead, for us to really start dealing effectively with systemic problems in a more systematic way, we will have to start tackling some of these issues.

The issue of security in courts has been raised and this is a very touchy issue. An issue that we haven’t looked at is costing. It will cost an enormous amount of money. An audit has already been done of the security requirements of the courts. At the moment, the best we can do is to try and put as much security at the high-risk courts. Then we can proceed to the other courts. Of course, at the high-risk courts we will have to try and install machines to see if people have guns on their person, and some alarm systems. We will also try and get a company to come and collect the money at the end of the day, so that people at the courts don’t have to keep money in their pockets. That’s what they were doing until a half year ago. They used to carry all the money in their pockets and deposit it at the end of the day.

These matters are being dealt with. This year alone, we have again allocated R70 million for security in the courts, but clearly, this is going to be a long-term process to try and create a whole security system for all our courts and the personnel at those courts. It is going to be problematic and costly. What we will do is to keep on reporting on how far we are and so on. I also want to respond to one issue raised by one of the members of the opposition, and I am sure that the Minister for Safety and Security could better respond to this, but I recall that he was not here this morning. I don’t know whether someone has told him that this issue had been raised, that is to give more police power at provincial level and that this is going to be Nirvana, and it is going to solve all our problems. I don’t have a doubt that we can debate that issue to what extent that that can happen. One thing I do know is that the nemesis of Government is fragmentation. The more you fragment Government, the more you have to then create structures to try and counter the fragmentation. What happens in Government then is that we spend our time in meetings, not governing but trying to deal with turf issues amongst different structures.

Therefore, if we start allocating more regional powers to the provinces in terms of policing, I seriously think that it will exacerbate the issue much more. In fact, we have tried it already. The first two years of our democracy, we tried it. It was an absolute unmitigated disaster of the worst kind. That is what happened. If you remember, we had many more powers provincially; in fact, the police were under provincial competence at that stage. That is what will happen if we do that. We have to have a very clear policing structure in the country. Whether you then specialise and how you do that is a job for the police management.

On the suggestions that were made in that debate, that somehow we must fragment these powers more, and that this is going to be a solution to problems, I think I should leave it to the experts to respond further to that. As far as I am concerned, on the issue of fragmentation alone, it will be an absolute disaster for us.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Thank you, Chairperson, Minister, Deputy Ministers, hon delegates and members. Firstly, I must thank members for the support they gave to the budget of the Department of Defence. We are in a more fortunate situation than the others who made presentations this morning. Nobody really fought with us. Everybody was agreeing with us. In fact, I want to thank Chief Mokoena for supporting the peacekeeping missions. It is very important for our people to realise the importance of peacekeeping in the role that we play. People must understand that even our economic growth depends on stability, not only the stability of South Africa, but also that of the whole region.

We thank you for the support that has been demonstrated this morning. There was a statement by Mr Moseki about the incident at the Tempe base. Of course he was also advocating that transformation be accelerated in the Department of Defence. I want to assure him that transformation is not only going to be accelerated, it is going to be tackled vigorously and aggressively during this term. [Applause.]

We are even going to transform the military legal system. We want to make sure the soldiers, especially those on the ground, are happy, so that you do not find a situation where the military legal system is meant to choose between those and others. We want to make sure that when people are in the defence service, they are all treated with the respect they deserve. There was a gentleman from the DA this morning who was complaining about people who are being recruited by Hamas and other groups for training outside the country. [Interjections.]

Dr F J VAN HEERDEN: I am from the Freedom Front. Just a correction.

THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Oh, I am sorry, from the Freedom Front. Sometimes the Freedom Front and the DA are the same to me. [Laughter.] At the moment we are busy reviewing the Foreign Military Assistance Act, with the aim of addressing exactly what the member from the Freedom Front is talking about, which is to make sure that we prevent our people from getting involved in all these dubious activities, like the one we have had in Zimbabwe. This amendment to the Act is going to make sure that we do everything to prevent South Africans from getting involved in all these foreign dubious military activities. So, the matter is being addressed. At the right time you will definitely be a part of that amendment Act.

There was also talk about the role of the SANDF in fighting crime to the extent that there was even a suggestion that the soldiers be given some arresting powers. I first want to state that the role of the SANDF is not to fight crime. In terms of the Constitution, the primary role of the SANDF is to defend and protect the republic, its territorial integrity and its people. That is the primary role of the SANDF. Of course, sometimes the President may also, in terms of the Constitution, authorise the deployment of the SANDF in co-operation with the police service. However, even when they are deployed, they are there in co-operation with the police. The soldiers are not trained to combat crime. The training is too different: the police are trained to protect, but soldiers are trained to kill and not to protect. So I think we should accept that we could not use the soldiers to do the work of the police.

I think there was also the suggestion - and I am happy that it is coming from the members and not from the Ministry and the department - that the budget of defence must be increased. I think this call is long overdue, especially with our special responsibilities now and with all what we want to do. I am happy when members call for the increase of the budget of defence. Lastly, I want to thank all the people, especially those who listened to us this morning, those who participated in our debate and those who also supported the defence budget. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Madam Chair, this morning I dealt with most of the issues that I thought related to the cluster issues that particularly impinge on the work that we do. I dealt with them fairly extensively. I only just want to support the Deputy Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development in his call for a clearer understanding of how our integration mechanisms work and to set for ourselves those specific frameworks. I think this is very important.

He also made a very good point about the sharing of information. Our statistics must in some way talk to one another. You will find that some departments collect statistics on specific issues, others collect others. When you compare them, there are differences, because when you see what they are measuring, it is not quite a case of comparing apples with apples. So we must co-ordinate and share information, firstly, to make sure that it speaks to similar issues across departments and, secondly, obviously, to strengthen that old homily that information is power. I would really like to support what he said.

The other very important point is that it does not help to apportion blame. That is totally useless. What has to be done is to determine the synergies that need to come together and to make the process go forward for our integrated governance model that we have chosen for very specific reasons.

On the issue of gun control, I am going to add my two cents’ worth, although I am not a specialist. This is a very important issue. The point that was made in yesterday’s article is that, in fact, there are two issues under gun control. The one point is the circulation of illegal guns, and the other is the number of legal guns in the possession of the citizens of this country. The fact that guns are controlled and registered does not necessarily mean that they are safe. The combination with alcohol is lethal. The guns and alcohol combination is dead wives and children. It is a terrible thing, and we have to stop this menace.

Another area in which justice must interface very strongly with the Police Service is to make sure that the protection orders that are issued go onto some sort of central basis so that the police have the ability to actually take guns away, because they know that there is a protection order issued against somebody who has the potential to be violent. We need to really manage this. I can only say that if there is anything I can do to support the process, you have my vote on that.

We have to make people understand that guns are dangerous and that they have to be managed very well by their owners. We firmly believe that people are able to do this. When there is evidence to suggest that the contrary is true, we have to act. We have to act in a co-ordinated manner or else the women and children of this country will continue to be cannon fodder for the gender imbalance that still persists in our society.

I also have to endorse the views of the MEC for safety and security in Gauteng on the issue of our developmental agenda. Our process cannot be strictly punitive. It has to be about rehabilitation. We have to talk to the issues that he spoke to, in that the sentences in themselves are the punishment. Serving the sentence must become part of the repair mechanism that integrates people into society. We do that because that is our contribution to fighting crime overall, and we must continue to do that as a core mandate for ourselves.

I would like the MEC for safety and security from Gauteng to please take my greetings to his predecessor. I mention his predecessor, because I would like to warn all the MECs that the 16 days of activism are coming up and this requires a lot of planning. One of the things we should be focusing on is how we change the behaviours of people in our society, male people in particular, men and boys, and also in our own departments.

Are we certain that we are making policies applicable to the whole of society? For instance, are our regulations against sexual harassment clear and unequivocal? Are we making sure that the police in our departments are issuing domestic maintenance orders fairly and objectively? Are our police dealing with domestic violence cases in the sensitive and specific way that we require them to? Are our Corrections officials responding in an appropriate way to the levels of violence within our prisons? These are things that we have to talk about during the 16 days of activism, because they start here with us, and then we can convey the message through example to our communities that interface with us in the service model. I did raise one thing in the National Assembly that I want to leave with the cluster to think about. My view is that Gauteng has done a very good shared-services model. I believe that our cluster should maybe look at ways of sharing our noncore business, for instance processing salaries. If we as a cluster did that in a central hub that serviced the departments in the cluster - I have done the numbers a bit - I remain convinced that we would be loosening up operational budget. We should perhaps think of shared- services models for our clusters in order to loosen and free up operational budgets for work outside the department.

Of course, critical to this decision would be for the Department of the Provincial Service and Administration to agree to it and to condone it, if they also thought that it could work. The Gauteng shared-services model has been a money saver. It has released resources for their operational budget, and it is something we should be bold enough to consider as a cluster. On that note, I will leave you with that thought. Thank you. [Applause.]

The MINISTER FOR SAFETY AND SECURITY: Thank you very much, Chairperson. The first thing I want to do is to also make my own comments on the point that the hon De Lange made with regard to our resistance to the fragmentation of the Police Service in this country. In fact, the MECs for community safety and liaison, together with the Deputy Minister and myself, will be meeting at the end of July to look at a number of things where it is necessary for us to begin to consider some policy shifts within the whole ambit of safety and security in this country.

We are moving towards the submission of a draft for consideration of what we will term the safety and security Act in South Africa, which is in keeping with the 1996 Constitution. I am sure you are aware that the South African Police Service Act is based on the interim Constitution of our country, but we are going to be discussing matters like that. We are convinced that we need a clear command and control system with regard to policing in this country. It cannot be subjected to fragmentation at all; otherwise we would have very severe problems if we were to allow for that.

The last time I came to this House I made a plea - hon Chairperson, I am sure you remember this, because you were in the Chair that day - which I thought was an impassioned plea to members of this House, namely that we come to these structures at the behest of our people. We represent their interests, and I said on that day that it is our responsibility, all of us who are public representatives, to educate our people in terms of all the Acts and pieces of legislation that we promulgate from these Houses. If we do not do that, we will come back to this House and make arguments such as those made by the hon Worth, because he has not done his work at all in terms of interaction with the people, if he speaks the way that he does about our Firearms Control Act.

This issue has been part of the public discourse since 1999. This is not the first time that we are beginning to talk about the implementation of the Firearms Control Act. It has been part of our discourse since 1999. It was, in fact, started by the National Secretariat for Safety and Security. Afterwards, people came to Parliament for our public hearings, and because this particular Bill was termed controversial, there were two sessions of public hearings on this particular question, which means we used the entire year 2000 for that kind of public engagement.

On 4 April 2001 we promulgated that Act, and we have been implementing this Act in phases since that period. So, the first phase started on 1 June 2001 when we implemented some sections. Then on 1 July 2003 we implemented a big chunk of those sections. The consequence of that implementation is that, amongst other things, we implemented section 8 which deals with accreditation. Now, with regard to that accreditation, 285 entities applied and they have been properly registered, as well as seven people who are training providers.

Now, at the end of this process, the hon Worth comes to us and says we must not promulgate something that we are already implementing. I do not understand what he is talking about. If he is not representing the people here and therefore, is oblivious to these programmes that I was talking about of implementation, he will come and speak in that fashion.

I know that there are people who are ignorant; they do not know what is happening in South Africa. You cannot blame it on us. It is their responsibility to learn and understand what is happening in South Africa. We go on a walkabout, and when they report about our walkabout, they say we are attempting to impose the law on people when the law has two weeks to come into effect. What is unfortunate is that there are those whose responsibility it is to communicate to the public as communicators, who themselves are not communicating properly. How can any journalist in this country - I was a journalist myself, I know how journalism works - do a story which completely exposes your ignorance? How do you work on such a story? If I were a journalist, I would say that the genesis of this thing was in 1999, unless they do not do any research, and if journalists do not do research, they are not worth the paper that they use to write the stories on.

Chairperson, I ought to have indicated to this House that the Deputy Minister is going to be responsible for the entire period of our social crime prevention.

All the matters that were raised here regarding that matter that was raised by the hon Cachalia from Gauteng, for instance, about the way in which we must work horizontally as departments, and vertically in terms of the three spheres of our governance, is correct. She is our vehicle that pushes for that kind of relationship, because there is an understanding that you cannot use pure basic and conventional police methods to fight social crime. It is not possible. We, therefore, need to have some partners as we deal with this matter. In the first instance, those partners would be found in Government.

The hon Cele from KwaZulu-Natal also raised this matter in terms of our social partners. There are quite a number of these social partners that we work with. He raised, for instance, the Department of Education; we are working with the Department of Education on the safe schools project. We are working with them, amongst others, on the implementation of our draft laws, so we are already working with them there. He raised the matter of business; we are working with big business. Business Against Crime is one of our social partners. There are a number of such civilian structures with whom we are working. Now, the hon Moloto of Limpopo raised the issue of abuse of our women and children. It is part of the responsibility of the Deputy Minister. He raised, for instance, the question of these young infants who were raped. We need to ensure that as public representatives, hon Worth, we need to work with everybody who is involved in these kinds of programmes for social crime prevention, which necessarily must include our mobilisation behind the programme of moral regeneration in this country, which is led by our Deputy President.

The hon Makgoe of the Free State raised the matter of the youth in prison. The hon Gillwald is now working with corrections. I know what her orientation is with regard to matters like these, on questions of abuse. That is why she was talking about the 16 days of activism. She is amongst those who are really passionate about problems that relate to abuse.

We do want to divest our prison system of young people who are detained there. We are looking at a measure which will ensure that we remove these children from our prisons and keep them in places which will be properly organised for their own safety and rehabilitation. Again, the Deputy Minister is going to be in charge of the programme from the point of view of safety and security, and will deal with those questions.

I am happy that the hon Mluleki George raised the question of peacekeeping and the support that we are getting regarding that matter. Of course he would get the support from the ANC members here for such a project because it stems directly from the Freedom Charter. You will find it amongst the clauses of the Freedom Charter; there will be peace and friendship.

What we meant is that we would not only secure South Africa, but ensure that all the countries on the continent are also secure. That is the responsibility we have because this governing party in this country has for many years been working with many people on the international front who assisted us to get to where we are today. We would not have been able to move this country to this democratic dispensation we have now if we did not have that support.

We are being internationalist, therefore, in our approach to all matters that we handle, and will always go to countries that appeal to us for assistance. Those who try to shoot this down will speak until the cows come home. They are not going to stop us from our responsibilities. [Applause.] Thank you very much to everybody who made submissions and suggestions. Those suggestions are going to be taken up, and we will of course fashion programmes around the new issues that you were suggesting. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: May I take this opportunity to thank the hon Ministers who made their presentations this morning together with their Deputy Ministers. I also want to thank the hon MECs who have come all the way to give input of their provincial life regarding the issues that are on the table. May I promise the hon Minister for Safety and Security that regarding the issues that we have raised, we in the NCOP are going to do more oversight than just looking into the legislation that we have.

We have picked up 753 pieces of legislation that have been passed since 1994 to date. We have to make sure that those Acts are properly implemented, which points to the issue that was raised by the hon Cachalia, that at some stage we all need to come back here to look at what it is we have to do to ensure that as we speak in this House, local government becomes part of it; that we have provincial governments and national Government in one House, talking about the issues that are affecting our people out there. Thank you very much for your participation. This House is adjourned.

The House adjourned at 16:50. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. Translations of Bills submitted

 (1)    The Minister of Finance


     (i)      Wysigingswetsontwerp  op  Belastingwette  [W  8  -   2004]
          (National Assembly - Wsec 77)


     This is the official translation into  Afrikaans  of  the  Taxation
     Laws Amendment Bill [B 8 - 2004] (National Assembly - sec 77).

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson

 Submission of the Financial and Fiscal Commission on  the  Division  of
 Revenue Bill for 2005-2006,  tabled  in  terms  of  section  9  of  the
 Intergovernmental Fiscal Relations Act, 1997 (Act No 97 of 1997).

1. The Minister of Correctional Services

 Report of the Judicial Inspectorate on Prisons and Prisoners for  2003-
 2004 [RP 72-2004].