TUESDAY, 24 AUGUST 2004

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          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

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The Council met at 14:03.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

QUESTIONS AND REPLIES – see that book.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

                             NEW MEMBER

The Chairperson announced that the hon M J Sibiya from Limpopo had been sworn in on Friday, 20 August 2004 as a new member of the National Council of Provinces.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I take this opportunity to welcome the hon M J Sibiya in the House. He is present here today. Hon member, you are now part of the National Council of Provinces.

                          NOTICE OF MOTION

Mnu M A MZIZI: Sihlalo, ngifaka isaziso sokuthi ekuhlaleni okulandelayo kwalo Mkhandlu ngizophakamisa:

Ukuthi lo Mkhandlu –

 1) uyayibona ingozi eyengamele izingane ezingenacala nezingazi lutho
    ngokuthi zimane zihlaselwe abazali bazo ngesihluku nonya ngenxa
    yezinkinga ezikhungethe bona abazali ngobukhulu babo, bese
    bekhiphela isibhongo kuzo izingane ezingenacale;


 2) ngakho-ke idlulisela induduzo kubazali bakwaNyembe ngokula-hlekelwa
    yingane ngesihluku esibi kanje;

 3) unquma ukuthi umthetho ovikela izingane ubuyekezwe, nokuthi ingalo
    yomthetho ingagadla ziphuke kulabo abenza lokho. (Translation of isiZulu notice of motion follows.)

[Mr M A MZIZI: Chairperson, I give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day:

That the Council –

 1) notes the danger faced by innocent children who are cruelly attacked
    by their parents because of problems encountered by those parents
    owing to their responsibilities, and who then vent their anger on
    innocent children;
 2) therefore conveys its condolences to the Nyembe parents for losing a
    child so tragically;

 3) resolves that the child protection laws be reviewed, and that the
    arm of the law be unleashed onto those who commit such acts.]


               CONGRATULATIONS TO SPRINGBOK RUGBY TEAM

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr N M RAJU: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council –

(1) notes that the Springboks have become the holders of the Tri- Nations Cup by achieving a remarkable win against the formidable Wallabies last Saturday, 21 August, following an equally convincing success against the much-vaunted All Blacks the previous Saturday; and

(2) congratulates coach Jake White, Captain John Smit, Victor Matfield, Breyton Paulse and the rest of the team for bringing back to the South African nation the pride and passion for national glory, reminiscent of the glorious 1995 World Cup success.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Mr H T SOGONI: Chairperson, the member forgot that Bafana Bafana beat Tunisia as well. [Interjections.]

    ELECTION OF COUNCIL FOR MAMUSA/SCHWEIZER-RENEKE MUNICIPALITY

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr J O TLHAGALE: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council –

(1) notes with appreciation that a new council for the Mamusa/Schweizer-Reneke Municipality in the North West was elected on Wednesday, 18 August 2004, to replace the previous council which had been disbanded due to corruption and interpersonal conflicts;

(2) further notes that in the new council the African National Congress is represented by nine councillors and the Democratic Alliance, the United Christian Democratic Party and the Pan Africanist Congress of Azania by one councillor each;

(3) wishes to congratulate them all and to call on them to live up to the expectations of their electorate; and (4) believes that the prophets of doom should take notice that the UCDP had previously not contested the elections in those areas and now the giant is awakening.

[Interjections.]

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

CANDIDATURE OF MR MOHAMMED VALLI MOOSA FOR THE POSITION OF IUCN PRESIDENT (Draft Resolution)

Rev P MOATSHE: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council –

(1) notes the candidature of Mr Mohammed Valli Moosa, former Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism, for the position of IUCN President at the third World Conservation Congress of the International Conservation Union (IUCN) to be held in November 2004 in Bangkok, Thailand;

(2) believes that Mr Moosa has a high standing in the international conservation community and the ability to ensure that the diverse interests of the IUCN’s members and those of its Commissions are accommodated within the IUCN’s complex setting;

(3) furthermore believes that he could play a key role in taking forward the concerns and interests of African countries;

 4) also notes that –


    (a) natural resource management and conservation, as advocated and
         practised by the IUCN South Africa in particular, has become
         an important mechanism for addressing poverty;


    b) the South African Government and IUCN are pioneers in their
       methodology of community involvement in nature conservation,
       integrated rural development, livelihoods, natural resource
       management and particularly issues of land restitution,
       protected areas and marginalised communities; and


    c) conservation in South Africa speaks of a holistic approach that
       sees the role of the human being and his need for development
       within the context of environmental sustainability – in this
       regard South Africa has played an important role on a global
       level, hosting both the World Summit on Sustainable Development
       and the World Parks Congress in 2002 and 2003, respectively; and


    5) affirms its support for the candidature of Mr Mohammed Valli
       Moosa for the position of IUCN President.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

             SITTINGS IN KWAZULU-NATAL IN NOVEMBER 2004


                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Thank you, hon Chairperson. I move on behalf of the Chairperson of the NCOP:

That, notwithstanding Rule 21(2)(c), the Council in terms of Rule 21(2) resolves that in the interest of enhancing public participation as provided for in section 72(1)(a) and (b) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, Act 108 of 1996, as from 1-5 November 2004, the Council will conduct public hearings, hold meetings, conduct oversight visits and will sit in plenary in the province of KwaZulu-Natal from approximately 10h00 until the conclusion of the business on that day.

I thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: As there is no speakers’ list, I shall now put the question, the question being that the motion be agreed to. In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow the provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of vote, if they so wish. Is there any province that wants to make a declaration of vote? If there is none, we shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do so in alphabetical order per province. Before that I shall ascertain whether all delegation heads are in the House. Yes, they are. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Siyavumelana. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Mr T S RALANE: We support.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Gauteng?

Mr H M SOGONI: Gauteng concurs.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI: KwaZulu-Natal iyavumela. [KwaZulu-Natal supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Limpopo?

Ms H F MATLANYANE: Limpopo, e a dumela. [Limpopo supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga?

Ms M P THEMBA: Mpumalanga supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Northern Cape?

Ms P HOLLANDER: We support.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: Ke wa rona. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape?

Mr N MACK: Support.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Nine out of nine provinces have agreed and the motion is therefore agreed to in terms of section 65 of the Constitution.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                           TRAVEL VOUCHERS


                      (Subject for Discussion)

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, before we proceed, I just want to make the following ground rules. I am sure hon members are aware that this subject for discussion, as printed on the Order Paper, has been in the media for quite some time. The debate today is aimed at informing the public about what Parliament as an institution is doing about the situation as it appeared in the media. Therefore I would like to advise members that during the debate they should be careful not to pronounce themselves on the merits of cases that are before the court. In doing that, I would really want to advise members to observe the following strict guidelines.

Firstly, the purpose of the debate is to provide information to the public on the use of parliamentary travel vouchers. The matter is currently under investigation by law enforcement agencies, and this is also a matter that is under consideration by the courts of law and is therefore sub judice. In debating the matter members should take care not to mention aspects of the matter that are under consideration. These matters include, amongst other things, the arrest of travel agency officials, the liquidation processes of some travel agencies, as well as members who are the subject of interviews by law enforcement agencies.

Parliament, as the custodian of the rule of law, should therefore provide leadership in this regard by ensuring that it adheres strictly to these fundamental constitutional values. Without any waste of time, hon members, I therefore call upon the Chairperson of the Council, hon J Kgoali, to open the debate.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE COUNCIL: Hon Deputy Chairperson of Committees, hon members, today this House debates a matter that has been in the public domain for quite some time. It is a matter on which Parliament ought to pronounce itself and provide leadership. In providing leadership, we must at all times seek to preserve the integrity of Parliament as the true representative of all South Africans.

I am quite confident that Parliament and its leadership, namely the Presiding Officers, the Whippery and the leaders of various political parties, will be able to ensure that the resolution of this matter does not undermine the dignity and integrity of this important institution. Parliament has so far dealt with this matter in a responsible way, having due regard for the already unfolding legal processes, whilst protecting and respecting the integrity and rights of its members.

We have dealt with the matter in a manner which ensures that the relationship of trust between Parliament and the public is not compromised and that we remain true to the role of Parliament as the embodiment of the democratic values of transparency and accountability, with open and robust debates on all matters of national importance. It is precisely because of our unwavering commitment to these values that we are now having this debate.

I just want to give a little background. In our efforts to ensure that we provide better and quality service to our people, Parliament put in place internal systems and mechanisms that enabled us to fully discharge our constitutional mandate and responsibilities. These internal systems are continuously reviewed, assessed and improved in order to maximise their effectiveness.

In line with this approach the existing voucher system was introduced in 1999, replacing the 1994 green paper. The members who were here then will recall that in 1994 we used to have a green sheet that we used to do the bookings with, which had serious weaknesses and loopholes that opened it to misuse. The new travel system saw the introduction of warrants that are used by members for air, rail or bus travel anywhere in South Africa. These warrants must be completed in detail and presented, with identification, when bookings are made. Although the new system is not perfect it managed to eliminate some of the serious flaws that were encountered in the green sheet system.

As part and parcel of a continuous assessment that is geared towards improving our internal control systems, the former Presiding Officers of Parliament, together with the then Secretary to Parliament, have since 2002 embarked on a process of thorough examination of our internal systems, with a view to developing a comprehensive and watertight internal control process with a particular focus on improving our travel system.

During this exercise weaknesses were found in our travel system. This resulted in Parliament initiating an investigation into possible misuse of the system. I want to repeat this: This resulted in Parliament initiating an investigation into possible misuse of this system. As part of this investigation Parliament enlisted the services of Transnet Group Audit Service to perform a forensic audit on the validation of travelling transactions on behalf of Parliament. In order to ensure that the investigation would be conducted in an open and objective manner, independently of Parliament, PriceWaterhouseCoopers was brought into the investigation.

Alongside this investigation Parliament took the most drastic step in order to protect taxpayers and the general public from possible misuse. This Parliament did by withholding payments to various travel agencies whose role in possible misuse was being investigated.

In order to recover taxpayers’ money, Parliament sought to be strategically involved in the liquidation process of some of these agencies. This was done to enable Parliament to have access to information related to the possible misuse, enabling the institution to lay claims to any proceeds of assets recovered by the liquidator. In this way, Parliament will be able to recover the moneys owed to the institution by the liquidated travel agencies.

I once more want to take this opportunity to repeat what I said earlier on, that Parliament initiated all these processes in order to ensure that it would be fully accountable, transparent and open in the manner in which it conducted its business. It was not the media, nor the forensic auditors, nor the Scorpions or police that initiated this investigation. It was Parliament. We reject insinuations in the media that seek to suggest that the investigations started somewhere else. In its watchdog role the media must properly inform the public about these important facts.

The process that Parliament has initiated will ultimately ensure that all members who are affected will be given an opportunity to present their understanding of what happened. Each and every member must be given an opportunity to state his or her side of the case.

The fact that in August 2003 the former Speaker of the National Assembly called on some members who had sought the services of the affected agencies to account to and assist Parliament in its effort, clearly points to the seriousness with which Parliament sought to deal with the matter. The limitation of this exercise, however, is that it did not involve all affected members. We must also point out that those members who have been called were very helpful in taking this process forward, as they have been open and frank in explaining their transactions with the affected agencies. We commend members for the manner in which they have assisted Parliament in this regard.

Parliament, as the representative of the people, takes the view that the broader interests of all South Africans supersede everything else when it comes to accountability in the use of public funds. Accountability and transparency are the foundation of any democratic parliament that encourages open and robust debates, both within and outside the precincts of parliament. These are the values for which so many of us made sacrifices and we challenge anyone who dares to question our unwavering commitment to them.

While the ultimate objective is to ensure that we leave no stone unturned in this matter, we must conduct ourselves in a responsible way that protects the integrity of this institution by allowing due processes that have been instituted to take their full course. We must jealously protect Parliament from misguided opportunists who seek one-day glory by perpetuating selfish and narrow political interests at the expense of the broader interests of the South African public. We have fought anarchy and opportunism in the trenches and we will continue to fight these tendencies in the very corridors of Parliament.

We believe that the involvement of independent forensic auditors and various law enforcement agencies will ensure objectivity and fairness in the resolution of this matter. The Presiding Officers are indeed correct in pursuing their course of action. Ours is a constitutional democracy wherein the Constitution, which guarantees and protects the rights of every citizen, is the supreme law of the country and we have to respect it. The rule of law in a constitutional democracy prevails over anarchy and opportunism. Every citizen of the country, including public representatives, is entitled to the full protection of the law. This cannot be sacrificed in favour of a narrow and selfish political agenda.

As the chief custodians of the values enshrined in the Constitution, Parliament must protect the right of every citizen, regardless of their position in society. We must not capitulate, as this will seriously dent the image of this important vehicle in promoting the rule of law. In this regard, we do not for a moment doubt the correctness of our approach in not disclosing the names of those affected, as they have not been charged with any wrongdoing. I want to repeat this: In this regard we do not for a moment doubt the correctness of our approach in not disclosing the names of those affected, as they have not been charged with any wrongdoing. We view such a disclosure as reckless and believe that it will adversely harm the integrity of those affected.

Insistence on the rule of law does not imply and should not be misconstrued as an attempt to protect anyone. In fact, Parliament’s position is on record that all those who are found to be on the wrong side of the law should face the full might of the law. This should not, however, amount to public vilification of members, even before they are charged, tried and found guilty by a competent court of law.

In this regard, we once more implore the media and all other interested parties to exercise restraint in the manner in which they engage in public discourse on this matter. Irresponsible comments that seek to apportion blame will unfairly prejudice the position of those who are otherwise innocent.

With regard to the role of political parties, in line with the agreement reached between the Presiding Officers and the Whips of political parties, Parliament has submitted the names of members whom the Director of Public Prosecution wishes to interview to their respective parties in order to facilitate such interviews. The Presiding Officers did not keep the names to themselves but referred those names to various political parties.

We are, however, encouraged by the fact that all political parties are fully supportive of a thorough investigation that is open and transparent. Their commitment to taking stern action against those who might be found to have committed wrongful acts reflects positively on the high levels of maturity on the part of our parties when it comes to issues of discipline within their party ranks. We must equally reject as irresponsible calls by some political parties prematurely to publish the names of people who have not been charged with any wrongdoing or any wrongful acts. We call for calm in this regard as we all seek proper solutions to a matter that is potentially damaging, not only to members affected but also to the institution as a whole.

The role of members of Parliament, both individually and collectively, is the embodiment of the values that Parliament promotes both within and outside its precincts. These values include, amongst other things, honesty, integrity and high regard for public office. They carry the hopes and aspirations of the entire nation and are the umbilical cord through which a relationship of trust is built between Parliament and the public. Members cannot be seen to be betraying this relationship of trust. They are elected to public office to represent public interest.

They should strive to conform to the highest standards in a society and must conduct themselves in a manner that is befitting of the public office they hold. Their conduct must therefore be impeccable and beyond reproach.

With regard to future internal controls, we must acknowledge that Parliament, despite being a true reflection of the South African society since 1994, has internal governance systems and policies that need to be changed significantly, if we are to live up to the standards that society expects from a public institution such as Parliament.

We must therefore support and give impetus to the already ongoing processes that are geared towards developing new systems that will eliminate weaknesses that we experience in the current internal control systems. We must always remain alert to the potential loopholes in our systems. Our people look upon us as a working model for good governance that is transparent and accountable. We dare not fail them. I thank you, hon Deputy Chairperson, for allowing me to share my thoughts on this important subject. Thank you very much.

Mnr A WATSON: Dankie, mnr die Ondervoorsitter. Ek wil met die agb Voorsitter van die Huis saamstem dat ons ’n plig het om hierdie saak tot op die been oop te vlek en dat diegene wat skuldig is, moet boet. Maar ongelukkig slaan sy die bal ver mis as sy sê dat ons ’n plig het om te keer dat die beeld van die Parlement nie geskaad word nie. Daardie beeld is lankal geskaad, want die skandaal rondom die beweerde misbruik van parlementêre reisbewyse is sekerlik die grootste krisis in die geskiedenis van die demokratiese Parlement van Suid-Afrika sedert sy ontstaan in 2004.

Die kern van die krisis is egter nie dat bedrog per se na bewering gepleeg is nie, maar dat dit belastingbetalers se geld is wat hier betrokke is, geld wat gebruik kon word vir nypende behoeftes van die land soos behuising, watervoorsiening, onderwys en die aanstelling van meer polisielede om misdaad te kan beveg.

(Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr A WATSON: Thank you, Mr Deputy Chairperson. I want to agree with the hon Chairperson of the House that, we have an obligation thoroughly to examine this case and those who are guilty must be punished. Unfortunately she misses the point by far if she says that we have an obligation to prevent Parliament’s image from being tarnished. That image has been tarnished long ago, because the scandal involving the alleged abuse of parliamentary travel vouchers must surely be the biggest crisis in the history of the democratic Parliament of South Africa since its inception in 1994.

The crux of the crisis, however, is not that fraud per se has allegedly been committed, but that taxpayers’ money is involved here, money that could have been used for the urgent needs of the country, like housing, supply of water, education and the appointment of more police officers to fight crime.]

It is also a matter of grave concern that members of Parliament who are elected to be the guardians of the voters’ interests, are those actually implicated in the scandal. Parliament must be commended for the fact that the so-called scam was identified and revealed by its own personnel and not leaked by some unnamed third party.

Whilst the investigations seem to have been thorough, it is also evident that there have been unnecessary and prolonged delays. The voters and taxpayers are getting extremely agitated and one only has to glance at the letter columns of newspapers – not editorials of the newspapers, but letters from voters, from taxpayers of the country - which for weeks now have contained one condemnation after the other.

Just two days ago in the Sunday Times, “Disillusioned Academic” asked: “Are MPs above the law?” He further stated that “feelings of bitter disappointment and betrayed trust overwhelm one when following the travel voucher scam by certain members of Parliament”.

En die leser is natuurlik korrek, want die gebrek aan openlikheid vererger net sake en breek die beeld van die Parlement en van parlementslede heeltemal af.

Waarom word diegene wat geïmpliseer is – ek sê nie skuldiges nie, maar diegene wat geïmpliseer is - so beskerm? Dit is ’n verleentheid vir die eerlike en eerbare LP’s dat almal onder verdenking geplaas word. Die DA het sy standpunt duidelik gestel: enige DA-LP wat aangekla gaan word, se lidmaatskap sal opgeskort word en enige DA-LP wat skuldig bevind word aan ’n oortreding wat oneerlikheid behels, sal sy of haar setel onmiddellik moet ontruim.

Aanvanklik was ’n lys van 135 name ter sprake, maar skielik is die lys verminder na 23 en behalwe vir die naam van die betrokke LP van die DA wat onmiddellik bekend gemaak is, word die ander name dig geheim gehou. Die kiesers moes maar tevrede wees met party van die name van LP’s wat aan ’n Sondagkoerant uitgelek is. En dan matig die Sekretaris van hierdie Parlement hom die reg toe om ’n verklaring uit te reik dat alhoewel die name van die Speaker, Adjunkspeaker en Minister van Onderwys aanvanklik in berigte genoem is, hulle eintlik dood onskuldig is!

Wat beteken dit: Het die Sekretaris van die Parlement nou skielik regterlike magte bekom, en beteken dit dat die ander 132 name wat genoem is dan almal skuldig is, as net die drie onskuldig is? Die Sekretaris moet baie meer omsigtig optree. Hy is nie meer ’n politikus nie, maar ’n bestuurder en as sulks moet hy gesien word as ’n onpartydige amptenaar. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[The reader is right, of course, because the lack of openness just makes matters worse and greatly harms the image of Parliament and its members.

Why are those who are implicated – I am not saying guilty, but those who have been implicated – protected like this? It is an embarrassment for the honest and decent MPs who all come under suspicion. The DA has stated its view clearly: The membership of any DA-MP who is going to be charged, will be suspended and any DA-MP who is found guilty of an offence involving dishonesty must vacate his or her seat immediately.

Initially a list of 135 names was mentioned, but suddenly the list has decreased to 23 and except for the name of the DA-MP involved, whose name was immediately made known, the other names are a closely guarded secret. The voters had to be satisfied with some of the names of MPs that had been leaked to a Sunday newspaper. Then the Secretary of this Parliament assumed that he had the right to issue a statement that although the names of the Speaker, Deputy Speaker and Minister of Education were initially mentioned in reports, they are actually entirely innocent!

What does this mean: Has the Secretary to Parliament suddenly obtained judicial powers, and does this mean that the other 132 names that have been mentioned are all guilty if only these three are innocent? The Secretary should act with greater circumspection. He is no longer a politician but a manager, and as such he must be seen as an impartial official.]

The DA feels that the speculation must be done away with, once and for all. We want a statement naming all the MPs involved, stating who have been exonerated and who, while not necessarily guilty, are under investigation. We want a forensic report … [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon members, can we allow the debate to flow, please.

Mr A WATSON: Particularly the hon member in front of me – she can never behave herself.

We want a forensic report so that the public can know that Parliament has done, and is doing, everything possible to resolve the matter. Those charged must be brought to trial without any further delay. The crooks must be punished and the innocent exonerated. Only in this way will the reputation of Parliament be restored. Thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon members, this is one of the most interesting issues of public importance. I really want to implore members to exercise some restraint by allowing every individual in this House to express his party-political view on this matter without any interference. This thing has nothing to do with us. We are communicating with the public out there and it would be regrettable for any party to be seen not to allow any member here to express his views to the public out there. I really want to emphasise this point to all members who are in this House, across party- political lines.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Deputy Chairperson, I would like to thank the hon Chairperson of the Council for the manner in which she has led the debate on this travel voucher scam.

As I was listening to the hon Watson, he didn’t fail to remind me of a story of a woman who was married to a man for three months, and didn’t know that he drank until one night when he came home sober. Those who understand simple language will understand what I was saying.

I would like to concentrate on the subject on the table, because I believe we need to approach this debate with great sensitivity. I want to use this opportunity to caution parties against letting this debate degenerate into one in which they seek to score cheap political points, because everybody is affected. Even if a party has only one member implicated in the alleged practices of abusing the parliamentary travel voucher system, it does not make it less serious than having two or three members implicated.

The hon Deputy Chair did advise us that some of the issues are sub judice. The investigations are still going on. We don’t know what will come out as the investigations are being concluded. Some may be dancing in the street now, but the tide may turn when some of the conclusions are made with regard to these investigations.

This debate can never be about the individual members implicated in the travel voucher saga, because they have not been tried and found guilty of any offence by a court of law. We live in a democracy underpinned by the fundamental rule of law, which proclaims a person’s innocence until proven guilty. The ANC fought for the rule of law and we will never allow anybody to lead us into believing it is not worth upholding. The ANC has the unfortunate distinction of being the one party that has been singled out most in the course of this issue. The only reason I can think of why this is so is because people know that the ANC is committed to good, transparent and accountable governance and they don’t expect ANC members to be involved in these kinds of practices.

Our public representatives are of high calibre and quality. Our cadres are driven by a desire to serve the people. What distinguishes us from other political parties and formations is an unshakable commitment to serving our people. The ANC believes in the policy of zero tolerance on corruption, and we believe in the policy of letting the law take its course without interference and undue pressure. Being corrupt is therefore something that cannot be reconciled with this value system.

Those members of the ANC who will be found guilty by a court of law – and I’m saying found guilty by a court of law, not the media, nor the DA, nor any other party – will have stringent disciplinary measures instituted against them. Our record in this regard has been proven and unquestionable. However, we understand that we come from a particular history where corruption has become an entrenched feature of our society. It affects all social sectors, strata and levels of our government without exception. It is important that we understand the roots of corruption in our country to be able to address it effectively. Moreover, corruption needs to be addressed at both the objective and subjective levels.

At an objective level we have to ensure that we attack and defeat the networks of corruption built over many years. This means assessing the effectiveness of the institutions we have established to fight corruption. Are they performing as they should and do we need to do more to ensure that they live up to their responsibilities?

At the subjective level we need to intensify the campaign for the moral regeneration of our society. The fight against corruption cannot be separated from the campaign for the moral regeneration of our society. The moral regeneration campaign must provide us with a guide as to what constitutes ethical behaviour and must be integrated in our daily activities.

While we have made significant progress in uprooting the conditions that gave rise to corruption, there is no guarantee that some of the elements of the old system will not find their way into our new democracy. However, through our policies we have created a powerful platform to respond decisively to this challenge.

Since 1994, the ANC has taken several significant steps to confront the need to address the moral crisis evident in the levels of corruption among public servants and to encourage good governance, greater openness, transparency and accountability. The most significant of these are the Public Service Anti-corruption Strategy, which sets out the strategic considerations and activities required to fight corruption in the Public Service; the Prevention and Combating of Corrupt Activities Act, which, of course, also includes public representatives and which provides for the criminalisation of corruption; and legislation on the protection of whistle- blowers.

The ANC also launched a National Anti-corruption Initiative in 1999, following a number of landmark events, such as the Public Sector Anti- corruption Conference in November 1998, and the National Anti-corruption Summit held in April 1999. Other targeted legislative and administrative measures that have been implemented include the establishment of constitutionally independent bodies such as the Auditor-General, the Public Protector, special investigative units in the various departments and the Investigating Directorate on Corruption in the Office of the National Director of Public Prosecutions. We have also seen the establishment of Inspectors-General within certain state departments, including the military, the police and the intelligence services.

The ANC’s commitment to fighting corruption is also expressed by our country’s adoption of a number of international treaties on corruption. May I also say that on the occasion of our organisation’s 91st anniversary last year, the ANC called on its members to be vigilant and act firmly against the cancer of corruption. We have instructed all our structures to maintain close contact with the people to create the possibility for united action against corruption wherever it manifests itself. This policy and programmatic intervention clearly expose the lies and distortions of those who claim that the ANC is not serious about combating corruption.

A recent editorial opinion on corruption in the Daily Dispatch concluded with the following words:

While all these cases make outrageous reading and will tempt some to throw up their hands in despair, the fact remains that they were all uncovered and announced by government officials after investigation by government departments with or without the help of outside agencies.

We thus have a responsibility to root out all concrete manifestations of corrupt practices. This is a crucial factor in our struggle to achieve the goal of good governance in the context of our effort to build a new democratic state. We will fail in our task of the reconstruction and development of our country if we give space to the forces of corruption to develop and further entrench themselves.

May I conclude by saying that the ANC remains committed to the principles of openness and transparency. However, with regard to the naming of people, those principles must be balanced with the Bill of Rights, and particularly section 10 of our Constitution, which reads as follows: “Everyone has inherent dignity and the right to have their dignity respected and protected.” It is important that this right should not be violated, thus impairing a person’s dignity. As we speak now, there is no one who has been formally charged, but we are speaking about people who may possibly be charged. I would like to conclude my speech on that note. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr K SINCLAIR: Deputy Chairperson, as the highest office bearers of democracy in South Africa, it is important that public representatives that have been elected by the people are at all times accountable and transparent in a manner that creates confidence in the institutions created by our Constitution.

It is unfortunate that it is necessary today to debate an issue that has tainted the integrity of Parliament. The view of the NNP regarding the approach for dealing with this very sensitive issue is simple. The individuals who have made themselves guilty of fraud must be punished. If found guilty, the action to deal with these individuals must be swift and decisive.

However, we have a constitutional obligation to uphold the rule of law. Regarding this, the NNP took a principled decision not to identify any of its members implicated in this saga. No member of Parliament has been charged as yet. Because of that our party will not be partners in a process where these individuals are subjected to a trial by the media.

The NNP is however concerned that the role of the accounting officers and officials of Parliament in this whole sorry saga never came to the fore. The critical question that must be answered is why it took so long before the unauthorised and inappropriate activities were detected. To prevent a repeat of this very, very unfortunate incident, it is therefore of the utmost importance that Parliament must improve its internal control procedures. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr N M RAJU: Chair, hon colleagues, I do not know if I really have anything original to add to the comments already made on this subject. Dark clouds have descended upon Parliament and some of its members, and the Presiding Officers must be commended for holding this debate to address the unfortunate situation in an open and transparent manner.

I would also like to commend the Chairperson of the Council who, in her opening remarks, made a robust defence of the importance of ensuring that the integrity and dignity of Parliament is protected at all times. And I am certain that that was the reason for the swift manner in which the Secretary of Parliament, the Speaker and others involved decided to ensure that, in the public interest, a debate of this nature be held.

However, the integrity of some members has been maligned in the process and the perception has been created that parliamentarians are incorrigible miscreants! But let me hasten to add, as the hon Chief Whip has already mentioned: No criminal charges have been levelled against any member of Parliament as yet. Investigations are still proceeding, but names have been bandied about willy-nilly. Judicial decisions are pending. In one case, members who have been clients of a certain travel agency have been invited to be interrogated to decide whether that travel agency should be liquidated.

It is said that fools rush in where angels fear to tread. So one must be careful not to jump to conclusions and condemn colleagues before the courts have heard the full story. Unfortunately though, negative publicity has engulfed the institution of Parliament, but we must exercise caution and restraint and allow the waters to flow under the bridge until the opaqueness of suspicion and innuendo clears up.

The IFP will not succumb to the temptation of adopting a “holier-than-thou” attitude, as a certain party has already displayed, nor will my party gloat over the fact that no member of the party has been named in the lists of suspects. As the hon Chief Whip has mentioned, whether one member of a party is mentioned or whether it is many members, the fact remains that, whichever party it is, the name of the party and the name of Parliament will be tainted.

Yes, the wheels of justice do grind slowly. I am certain that we all agree that, in the final analysis, those found guilty of any misdemeanour will have to face the music. As sentinels protecting this noble institution of Parliament, we as members cannot do otherwise but accept the court’s decision, whatever that may be.

Finally, my party again wishes to express its appreciation for the speed with which the parliamentary authorities acted on this subject, in an open and transparent manner. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr J O TLHAGALE: Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson, hon members and hon visitors here, probably members of Salga. The issue of the travel vouchers is the worst thing that could have happened to parliamentarians. It awakens unpleasant insinuations of the past, that parliamentarians are riding on the gravy train, and it has the effect of lumping everyone together as though we are all guilty of this alleged offence. My problem this afternoon is compounded further by the fact that I may say certain things, but not other things, due to the sub judice rule. So, in order to avoid transgressing the said rules, I have decided to browse on the periphery. The amount of money siphoned from the coffers of this institution over a period of five years does not augur well in terms of its accountability. However, we appreciate the fact that it is Parliament that raised the alarm, and that this matter will be executed as expeditiously as possible.

In support of what my hon colleague Mr Raju has said, I need to add that in terms of our idiom, one should not laugh at those who have fallen whilst the slippery road still lies ahead. However, our position as UCDP is that the law must take its course unhindered and as transparently as possible. I thank you. [Applause.]

Eerw E ADOLPH: Agb Voorsitter en lede van die Huis, dit is klaarblyklik dat die gebruik van reisigerskoeponne ’n groot probleem veroorsaak en ’n vraagteken kom plaas het oor die haalbaarheid van ’n verouderde stelsel binne ’n nuwe demokratiese stelsel sedert 1994. Dit bevraagteken dan ook die deursigtigheid asook die geloofwaardigheid en integriteit van die staat as institusie. Daarom kan die publiek met reg vrae vra omtrent die geloofwaardigheid van die staat met betrekking tot hierdie beweringe.

Ons as die ID is egter pynlik bewus daarvan dat daar ook gekyk moet word na die oorsake van hierdie probleem en waarom dit ontstaan het. Ons is terdeë bewus daarvan dat onskuldige mense in die slag mag bly, maar ons is verbind tot die beginsel dat die waarheid gepraat moet word en geloofwaardigheid behou moet word, ongeag wie in die slag bly. Dit is die beginsel waartoe ons onsself verbind. Maar ons gaan verder as konstruktiewe opposisie, en kyk ook na oplossings vir die probleem. Ons praat, raas en skree nie net alleen nie, maar ons soek na haalbare oplossings vir die probleem. Daarom wil ons voorstel dat daar so gou as moontlik ’n veelparty-komitee op die been gebring moet word om te gaan kyk en die Parlement te adviseer om inligting deur te gee aan die publiek, wat ’n grondwetlike reg het om dit te kry. Ons wil verder ook voorstel dat ’n elektroniese of e-stelsel onmiddellik op die been gebring word om hierdie euwels en slaggate vir eens en altyd by te lê.

Daar kan natuurlik baie vrae gevra word en die les wat ons almal

hieruit kan leer as kollektiewe Huis, is dat almal gelyk is voor

die wet. Selfs ons wat die wette maak, is onderhewig aan die gewig

en die reikwydte van die wet. (Afrikaans paragraphs follows.) ¯

[Rev E ADOLPH: Hon Chairperson and members of the House, it is

obvious that the use of travellers’ coupons has caused a big

problem and placed a question mark on the feasibility of an

outdated system within a new democratic system since 1994. It also

casts doubt on the transparency as well as the credibility and

integrity of the state as an institution. Therefore the public can

rightly ask question about the credibility of the state with regard

to these allegations.

But we as the ID are painfully aware of the fact that we must also

look at the causes of this problem, why it originated. We are fully

aware of the fact that innocent people could suffer, but we are

committed to the principle that the truth must be told and

credibility be maintained, regardless of who suffers. That is the

principle to which we commit ourselves. But we go further than

constructive opposition, and also look at solutions to the problem.

We not only talk, kick up a row and shout, but we look for feasible

solutions to the problem. Therefore we want to suggest that a

multi-party committee be established as soon as possible to go and

investigate and to advise Parliament to pass on information to the

public, which has a constitutional right to receive it. Furthermore

we also want to suggest that an electronic e-system be established

immediately to settle these defects and pot-holes once and for all.

Of course, many questions can be asked and the lesson that all of us can learn from this collectively as a house is that everyone is equal before the law. Even we who make the laws are subject to the weight and range of the law.]

“Nobody is above the law.” Terwyl die saak sub judice is, laat die wet sy gang gaan. Daarom sê ons die tyd het aangebreek dat die staat as institusie weer eens sy geloofwaardigheid en integriteit in die oë van die publiek in ere moet herstel. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[While the matter is sub judice, let the law take its course.

That is why we say that the time has come for the state as an

institution to restore its credibility and integrity in the eyes of

the public once and for all.] I thank you.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, what is the moon when the dog barks? Some of us cannot stoop that low.

When this democratic Parliament came into being we passed a piece of legislation called the Access to Information Act. In passing this legislation we were very awake and sober. We wanted to prove to all those doubting Thomases that we had nothing to hide. In this way we are allowing the public to have access to and even monitor what we are doing as Parliament, or even as government.

As a democratic Parliament we are noting the role played by our media, even in the past, in exposing those ill practices of the then government. At some point they were calling us terrorists. Surprisingly, today they are calling us hon members.

We are now graduating to being called “scam MPs”. We are called those names by the very same media. But as we have heard from the Chairperson of the NCOP, this probe was initiated by Parliament, not by any other person outside Parliament. However, the impression created by some sections of the media is that we were caught with something down. [Interjections.]

Just to show how irresponsible some sections of the media are, on 2 August, one newspaper headline read: “MPs living the high life at the expense of the public.” Another one read: “Parliament will not expel travel scam MPs.” On 11 August, again another headline read: “Speaker to name travel scam MPs.” But I will be doing an injustice to myself if I do not quote this following headline: “Shame on you.” That was a reference to us as MPs.

Because of time I cannot quote all those irresponsible headlines. It is clear from what I have quoted that we have been found guilty in the courts of the media, as can be observed from one of the above quotations. Some have sought to portray the ANC in a bad light on account of our refusal to name publicly those the media referred to as “scam MPs”.

Ke mokgatlo o nnoši wo o sa kago wa nyaka go tswalela boraditaba molomo. Re ile ra ba dumelela gore ba ngwale seo ba se ratago ka nako yeo ba kgonago. Eupša seo re kago se kgopela ke gore a nke e re pele ga ge ba ngwala ditšiebadimo tša bona, ba thome ba ba nyakišiše pele. (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)

[It is the only organisation that did not want to stop the media. We allowed them to write anything at any time. But what we would like to ask is that they investigate before they write their nonsense.]

As a government, as Parliament, and as individuals, we have the right to defend ourselves if we feel we are under attack. We are not going to allow a situation in which our members are tried and found guilty by the media. I think it would be advisable for the media not to be excited. I think they are jumping the gun, with due respect, unless they want to play to the gallery, in which case let it be so.

I am saying this because in most cases, if the media realises that they have erred or they are forced to withdraw or retract whatever they have written about a member or any other person, what they will do is to say, in small letters in the middle of their newspaper, that we regret this and that, and then that will be it. But if they go for you, you will see these big headlines with bold letters, as is happening now on the front pages.

I don’t know journalism, but my little knowledge tells me that you cannot name a person before he or she appears before a court of law, and not the court of the media. What I know is that there were those who reported about this issue genuinely, some of the newspapers.

Re nyaka gore re re go bona: tšwelang pele ka go ngwala gobane rena ga re re le se ke la ngwala. Ngwalang seo le se kgonago, efela le ngwale ka boikarabelo. E ka se be rena re rego le se ke la ngwala; efela re re le se ke la fofa pele ga ge moropa o lla. (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)

[We would like to say to them: Continue writing, because we are not saying you should stop. Write what you can, but write responsibly. We cannot be the ones to stop you from writing, but we are saying that you should not jump before the drum beats.]

There is a call by some parties that we should name people who are involved in this thing. I wonder if the person who was involved in this thing was the father or the son of Mr Watson whether Mr Watson would be so excited about this thing. I am not trying to play any race card, but looking at the person they are toying around, using him as a scapegoat to say, “we are naming these people”, if it was Mr Watson’s son or his father, would he be as excited as he appears to be now? The answer is no. [Interjections.] I am very disappointed, Chairperson. I have a high regard for some of these members, but because of how they are behaving I have lost respect for them.

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Chair, on a point of order: Is it parliamentary for an hon member to say another member is speaking nonsense?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I don’t want to be hasty about that. I will make a ruling at a later stage. I will come back to that. The hon member can proceed.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Thank you, Chair. I want to call upon our friends, who I respect so much, the media, to do exactly what you advise us to do, to exercise some restraint as far as this matter is concerned. You are talking of people who have families and children, people who want their integrity protected. I wonder what will happen if tomorrow it is revealed that those members were wrongfully identified or named.

A ke leboge mekgatlo ka moka yeo e kwanago le tshepedišo ya semolao, yeo le rena ka moka re kwanago le yona, e lego ya gore ditaba di sepele ka mokgwa wo di swanetšego go sepela ka gona, e sego ka mokgwa wo go ratago bomabinagosolwa. (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)

[Let me thank all the organisations that agree with the legal process, which all of us agree with, which says that issues should run the way they are supposed to, not the way preferred by those who come when everything is done and ready.]

I want to express the view that some – with a capital “S” – sections of the media are funded and controlled by forces that I am not going to name here. I just hope that there is no truth here, because if it is true, at some point we are going to expose them as well. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Deputy Chairperson, thank you very much for this opportunity. May I also thank hon members who responded and debated this matter in a very responsible way.

I want to appeal to the media, as the public watchdog, that we would appreciate that they report to the public on facts and not mislead the public. It is good that the media is dealing with the matters that we are dealing with currently, but we appeal to them to do so responsibly. We would appreciate that, as we are all actually dealing with this matter, and it is going to assist us to ensure that we address some of the problems we are faced with.

I just quickly want to deal with the issues that the hon member Watson was trying to raise here. You see, by having this debate today we are trying to inform the public. We had not done that previously, but we are doing it to correct what we were not able to do. We are giving the information to the people out there, and we therefore request members of Parliament to go out and say that this is the correct record. We should not hide behind our thumbs and think that we are smarter than other people. This is a saga, and we need to treat it as a saga.

The hon member raised the issue of the doctor who read something in the media. You can read something correctly or incorrectly in the media. Therefore it is our responsibility as public representatives with constituencies to convey the correct information to people out there. We are saying, let all of us restrain ourselves from sentencing members before a court of law has done so.

One would like to say that this matter is a matter that has to be dealt with by this institution. It is this current government that has introduced policies and legislation to deal with corruption, and we are going to use that legislation to deal with corruption in Parliament. So nobody must judge us the other way around.

I want to say here on record that members are not guilty before they are found guilty by a court of law, and not by the media. Currently we are dealing with a situation in which the media has tried to sentence members of Parliament without actually having the facts before them.

Hon Adolph is saying that we need to find the cause of the problem. Sure, indeed, we have to. It will be our responsibility as members of Parliament to ensure that each and every member of this House or the other House is able to do the work that she or he is supposed to do, and is able to do so effectively.

By the way, remember that the people we are dealing with here are hon members, who are men and women who have families. Irrespective of whether a member lives in the Western Cape, he or she actually has to travel and find a way to get to work. We have to find a way to assist you as a member of Parliament. You have a constituency. How you get to that constituency is another matter that we have to look into.

I am not sure from which province the hon member Mr Watson comes, but I know that he represents Mpumulanga. If you come from Mpumalanga, you have left one home and you have built another home here. We therefore have to find a way of assisting members, to ensure that we address the problems that might occur along the way, as they travel to go back.

Hence we are saying that we are trying to correct the systems. The systems that we found in this Parliament were not correct and they are still not correct. We want to continue to make them perfect, so that all hon members are able to use them.

In 2001 – I cannot remember which month – the Joint Rules Committee dealt with Circular L19. This is the circular that deals with members’ interests and that we are all looking into and seeking to improve, to ensure that we support members in dealing with day-to-day issues and enable members to do their work in Parliament and in their constituencies. We are improving the document. The document is going to be circulated to all members. This is what we are trying to improve.

The purpose of this debate was to give the public the information that they never had from us. What makes me happy is that all of us as we are seated here - of course very few people were saying let’s take this direction - are in agreement that we are going to make sure that we wait for the processes of law to take their course and do whatever the law says we must do. We will comply with that.

I know that this is a very emotional matter, and all of us are concerned to defend the institution that we are serving. We are also concerned to defend the integrity of our members. We cannot continue judging our members and sentencing them before a court of law has done so.

I also want to commend those political parties that have shown a commitment to correcting the wrong. We move forward in a manner that is going to assist us to engage the public. We are not here trying to score political gains. We want to make sure that we address the matter, because this is a nationally important matter and therefore all of us have to commit ourselves, because … inamhlanje inami [today it is me]… tomorrow it will be you. If you point one finger at me, four fingers are pointing back at you.

I want to repeat that we have always maintained that everybody is innocent until proven guilty by a court of law. On that I am not going to compromise, and I am sure none us will compromise on that.

Finally, we want to appeal once more to the media please to inform the public correctly. If members of the media don’t have the information. They must come to us; we’ll give them the information, which is going to assist us to be able to address the problem at hand. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Thank you, hon members. This brings us to the end of the discussion on one of the most topical and yet emotive issues. The significance of this discussion lies in the ability of public representatives as an institution and as leaders of their own political parties to convey a clear message to the public. What has been raging in the past has been the result of writing by newspapers and formulating an opinion on this subject without Parliament speaking for itself on this matter. I think that is where the significance of this debate today lies.

STRENGTHENING THE PEOPLE’S CONTRACT TO ADDRESS THE CHALLENGES OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BILLING SYSTEM AND ACCELERATE THE PROVISION OF FREE BASIC SERVICES

                      (Subject for Discussion)

The MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, esteemed delegates and hon members, in his state of the nation address to Parliament in February 2000, President Mbeki enjoined Government to initiate a process of providing free basic services to our people.

This injunction was informed by the normative choice we made in favour of bringing sustainable development and a better life within the reach and grasp of our country and its people. It is also located within the global drive to achieve the millennium goals. A commitment has been made to ensure that all households have access to clean potable water by the year 2008, and further that all households are electrified by the year 2012.

Today’s discussion gives us the welcome opportunity collectively to assess the progress which is being made in the actual theatre of implementation, to appreciate the challenges that lie ahead and to equip ourselves so that we may better be able to discharge our obligation to our country and our people.

I must hasten to point out that progress with respect to the roll-out of the free basic services provision programme cannot be measured outside the institutionally and historically specific circumstances of our country. Those are the circumstances which consigned the overwhelming majority of our people to areas and households that were severely underserved. In addition to this, other forms of deliberate neglect produced for us the legacy of endemic infrastructure backlogs. It is this latter factor which makes the terrain over which we are ranging particularly bumpy.

The roll-out of free basic water commenced in earnest in July 2001, and has progressed quite significantly. Currently 86% of our municipalities are providing free basic water. The roll-out of free basic electricity kicked off in July 2003. Progress with respect to the provision of both services has been pretty much uneven both within and between provinces. More progress has also been realised in the larger municipalities than in smaller and poorer rural municipalities.

The hierarchy of achievement reveals extreme disparities between provinces and municipalities. For instance, with regard to provinces the Northern Cape occupies a pole position with all the municipalities within its jurisdiction providing free basic water and electricity. At the other end of the spectrum is KwaZulu-Natal, with all its 51 local municipalities providing some free basic water and only 26 of these providing some level of free basic electricity, and the remaining 25 not providing any free basic energy yet.

I must also point out that even those municipalities that are already providing free basic services have still to attain the goal of universal access. In other words, all municipalities are so far providing free basic services to fewer beneficiaries than anticipated.

This brings into sharp relief several factors which have a deleterious effect on our capacity to sustain and enhance current trends. These factors include poor revenue collection which leads to a pile-up of municipal debt; the absence of a robust revenue base, especially in areas that are marginal to urban conurbations or are rural enclaves of poverty endemicity; the paucity of municipal infrastructure; and poor operation and maintenance of existing infrastructure.

These factors are on the radar screens not only of municipalities, but also of provincial and national governments. We continually introduce measures which are intended to engender improvements in the institutional support which we give to municipalities. We do so in order to strengthen local government’s implementation capacity, as well as to ensure proper planning and budgeting.

All these measures, important as they are, are not adequate. They need to be complemented by concrete steps which decisively seek to extricate many of our people from the exclusionary processes into which they were thrust. One such step was taken when we recently launched the municipal infrastructure grant. In terms of this programme we have allocated an amount of R 15,6 billion for municipalities to spend over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework period.

The consolidation of previously fragmented grants into the Mig will help us improve on what used to be a relatively diffused and feeble assault on municipal infrastructure backlogs, poverty and underdevelopment. This development will also enable us effectively to pursue other policy goals such as job creation, sustainable economic growth and the attendant enhancement of the municipal revenue base.

In order for us to achieve these interlinked goals we require a governmental system whose levels of intersphere co-ordination are more greatly enhanced. We also require a local government sphere which is more robust in its functional efficiency, as well as municipal residents, individual and corporate, with unbending commitment to their civil responsibilities.

That you saw it fit to organise this discussion for today is a sure sign that in the National Council Of Provinces the executive branch of government has a dependable ally in the struggle for sustained service delivery. I wish to say thank you for that and thank you for your attention. [Applause.]

Mr B J MKHALIPHI: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon colleagues and our hon colleagues from organised local government, the first decade of freedom has seen the adoption of policies for the delivery of basic services by national government. The challenges of implementing these policies rest with local government. Direct support and access to technical expertise from national and provincial government to local government is needed to ensure successful implementation. The level of increase in fiscal transfers to the sphere of local government clearly amplifies the priority which national government places on basic service delivery.

We have identified the provision of electricity as one of the most important priorities. Major advances have been made with regard to the roll- out and implementation of free basic water, electricity and sanitation. Following the announcement of this policy in September 2000, a comprehensive process was embarked upon to facilitate and guide the implementation of the policy by municipalities. Indeed, the provision of free basic services remained a big and complex challenge for municipalities since the actual service delivery happens in this sphere of government. This is primarily because of the many constraints that have to be overcome and dealt with to ensure the success of free basic service provision and the determination of appropriate tariffs.

Given the different revenue service level profiles of municipalities, some will find it relatively easy to implement the free basic service policy, while others will face severe constraints. However, plans are in place to attend to such problems, and greater co-operation between the spheres of government is necessary.

Salga has initiated an audit of municipalities and their plans for the delivery of these services. This is done in order to ensure that municipalities meet the presidential targets and improve the quality of delivery of these services. Again, as we intensify our efforts to eradicate poverty, the delivery of basic services remains a priority.

The provision of free basic services would assist people to sustain their day-to-day lives, and would also assist our people to benefit from these services. We cannot, as this government, fold our arms while the most vulnerable of our people are trapped in a cycle of poverty. We are going to walk side by side with the ordinary people to come up with workable ways to lessen the impact caused by the scourge of poverty, unemployment, underdevelopment and centuries of neglect.

The expansion of access to free basic services continues to be an important policy directive to ensure that we fulfil our commitment to a better life by addressing the inequalities created over decades of apartheid rule and colonial domination. The situation in other areas resulted in the erroneous assumption that basic services that sustain life and dignity could be sold as an ordinary commercial commodity.

The Constitution laid the foundation for the provision of a legislative and regulative framework governing the water sector, and for the national programme to address the backlog in the provision of these services. Furthermore, the Municipal Systems Act set the tone for vigorous policy implementation. The Water Services Act provided a fundamental and guiding legal basis for free basic services. These policies mark the final nail in the apartheid coffin of exclusion and deprivation.

There is general consensus that due to our country’s economic conditions the poor cannot afford essential municipal services. Therefore the ANC government adopted the free basic service policy, directly aimed at providing free basic services to every poor household in the country. This pronouncement has sought and continues to seek to confront the challenges of a people-driven programme for social transformation. The social transformation agenda of our movement, which has spearheaded the provision of free basic services as championed in the Reconstruction and Development Programme, is based on the fundamental objective of building a more equal, humane and caring society.

The constraints and challenges imposed by planning for the implementation of the free basic service policy brought about intensive and mutually rewarding co-operation, which is crystallised by the need for interdepartmental and, in some cases cross-sectoral, collaboration.

We have on the one hand the Department of Minerals and Energy, the Department of Public Enterprises, the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry, the National Treasury and the Department of Public Works, while on the other hand we have Eskom, the National Electricity Regulator and Stats SA. These departments and parastatals meet regularly to share their views and the responsibility for taking the free basic service policy forward. The meetings are facilitated by the Department of Provincial and Local Government. This initiative has brought about integrated planning among these institutions, which happens throughout the year.

Some of the benefits of these collaborations are the following. It has enabled the partners to resolve Eskom’s concerns about funding. It has also enabled the piloting of the nongrid energy projects in the provinces of Limpopo and KwaZulu-Natal - projects that are piloting the services that will be provided to poor rural areas. Lastly, it has also stabilised the relationship between municipalities and service providers.

The indigent policy will also help to build a national database which will improve the financial planning of municipalities and eventually improve service delivery by municipalities to our people. We have no reason to believe that we are not going to succeed. Service to the people is a cornerstone of our transformation agenda of creating a humane society.

Perhaps those who criticise us and claim that this process is not going forward should consider a story told of ancient Greece. The story tells of two groups of people who were building the empire of Greece. One group was very critical and claimed that they did not know where they were going, so they saw their role as mere stone-breakers. The second informed and very active group always enthused and said: “We are building the empire.” When we proceed with this debate and in the future we should also take our place and distinguish whether we are critical onlookers or builders of our community. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr D A WORTH: Madam Deputy Chair, hon members, municipalities face the huge task of accelerating service delivery to ordinary and especially poor South Africans. One of the priorities identified includes the inability of municipalities to collect some R22,5 billion for rates and services charged as at 31 March 2002. This debt has increased since then, and there is little prospect of it being recovered.

It is common practice for municipalities not to adjust their annual budgeted revenue payment levels. Expenditure budgets are prepared on the assumption that all budgeted revenue will be collected, but when it is not there is no subsequent adjustment. Municipalities then use their cash surpluses, redeem investments and use overdrafts to finance the shortfall.

Municipalities face the twin challenges of extending services to the poor and improving the standard of service to others who are the backbone of their tax base. A difficult trade-off is required, and this must be managed optimally.

Growing debt and an inability to act against defaulters points to another problem. Many municipalities do not have sufficient information on who their users are. As a result they cannot penalise nonpayers and help the genuinely indigent, which makes the grants and subsidies aimed at the poor less effective.

The Department of Provincial and Local Government estimates that it will cost R38,5 billion a year to provide basic services to all South Africans. Nobody knows for certain, however, what the exact cost will be of funding and providing infrastructure for the basic services.

Although the DA is in support of infrastructure development at local government level, the R15,6 billion municipal infrastructure grant is simply a reallocation of budgeted funds to a new funding mechanism, and does not represent a major new initiative to expand infrastructure investment through the Expanded Public Works Programme.

It is simply incorrect for government to spin the R15,6 billion as a new fiscal injection into infrastructure development. In this year’s Budget Finance Minister Mr Trevor Manuel increased the budget for provincial and municipal infrastructure by R3,2 billion – only a small proportion of the much-vaunted R15,6 billion figure. The rest of the infrastructure spend, totalling around R12,4 billion, is simply being reallocated from the Consolidated Municipal Infrastructure Programme - where it was previously spent on water, transport, electricity and rural development - to the municipal infrastructure grant.

Huge challenges remain in terms of collecting funds from residents, as this has proved to be a costly exercise, given the existing high rate of unemployment. Municipalities have to get to grips with implementing a policy which provides 60 kilolitres of free water and 50 KW of free electricity a month to poor families.

The implementation of free basic services and the creation of indigent policies remain a massive challenge because revenue has to be found to offset the costs of providing these services for free. Finding solutions to a billing system which will accommodate the provision of such services remains a challenge. Practical strategies must be devised to ensure that the poor do access free basic services. Indigent policies must be developed to enable the expansion of these services to previously unserviced areas, such as informal settlements. Capacity constraints and a lack of appropriate skills and resources in many municipalities is also a major concern.

The transformation of local government has been a difficult process, plagued by demarcation disputes and the integration of various billing and revenue collection systems. Poor financial management is undoubtedly the biggest hurdle, and municipalities should be more vigorous and committed to collecting rates and taxes.

The Municipal Finance Management Act will certainly help in the monitoring and support of local government. However, if we already know how much is owed, then one should rather ask why the situation has been allowed to deteriorate to this level. The answer lies in the quality of the people in municipal management and why the managers are not being held accountable. If this Act is to be commended it should be for its insistence on each municipality instituting performance management systems. Municipalities spent about 32% of their operating budgets on personnel in 2002-03, compared with 19% a few years ago, with this rising expenditure squeezing out local government’s ability to deliver services.

Social grant mechanisms need to be better co-ordinated with the indigent policy of local government. In particular, there is a need to enhance the income of the poor through improved co-ordination in government. The benefit of this alignment will be a better targeting of the poor and more prudent resource allocation in tackling poverty. The biggest challenges for municipalities remain, however, overcoming the culture of nonpayment, credit control and a vigorous debt collection policy. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mnr F ADAMS: Voorsitter, agb Minister, spesiale afgevaardigdes en agb lede van die Raad, Suid-Afrika is besig om ’n wêreldklas land te word, en daarom moet ons munisipaliteite ook geherstruktureer word om aan te pas en op standaard te kom met die belangrikste taak om gelykwaardige dienste aan al die mense van Suid-Afrika te lewer.

Met die eenwording van baie klein munisipaliteitjies om groter, vaartbelynde munisipaliteite te vorm, is baie teenstrydighede en ondoeltreffende werkswyses ingestel wat nog steeds in gebruik is. In verskeie gevalle het baie van ons land se inwoners nie toegang tot enige van die regering se werklike voordele nie.

Plaaslike regerings moet hulle verbind tot die nasionale regering se inflasieteikens om die munisipale rekeninge so bekostigbaar en mensvriendelik as moontlik te maak. Dit moet aggressief aangepas word, sodat ons inwoners ’n menswaardige bestaan kan geniet.

Dit moet elke plaaslike regering sowel as alle vlakke van regeringsfere se taak wees om te verseker dat ’n verskeidenheid dienste aan al die inwoners van Suid-Afrika gelewer word. Hierdie dienste moet help om ’n omgewing te skep waar inwoners en gemeenskappe voorspoedige, veilige en gesonde lewens kan lei.

Plaaslike regering moet tot elke prys probeer om die oorvleueling van dienste te vermy. Die herontwerping van prosesse en beleidsrigtings, waar nodig, sal lei tot eenvoudige en kostedoeltreffende meganismes, wat sal verseker dat diensintegriteit gehandhaaf en tot aanvaarbare hoë standaarde sal verbeter. Inwoners het almal dié dienste nodig. Ek dank u. Applous.

[Mr F ADAMS: Chairman, hon Minister, special delegates and hon members of the Council, South Africa is becoming a world-class country, and therefore our municipalities should also be restructured in order to adapt and get on a par with the most important task, that of delivering equal services to all of South Africa’s people.

With the unification of many small municipalities to form bigger, streamlined municipalities, many conflicting and inefficient procedures were put in place, which are still being used. In several cases, many of our country’s residents have no access to any of the government’s real benefits.

Local governments should commit themselves to the national government’s inflation targets in order to make municipal accounts as affordable and human friendly as possible. These must be adjusted aggressively, so that our residents can enjoy a dignified life.

It must be the task of every local government, as well as of all tiers of government, to ensure that a variety of services are rendered to all of South Africa’s residents. These services must help to create an environment in which residents and communities can lead prosperous, safe and healthy lives.

Local government must at all costs strive to avoid duplication of services. Redesigning processes and policies, where necessary, will lead to simple and cost-effective mechanisms, which will ensure that service integrity is maintained and improved to acceptably high levels. All residents need these services. I thank you. [Applause.]]

Cllr N P MAFORA (Salga): Chairperson, I shall be speaking on behalf of Salga. Chairperson, hon Minister, hon House, colleagues from organised local government, despite extraordinary advances over the past 10 years, local government is still faced with the challenge of extending the fundamental benefits of basic water supply and sanitation, electricity and housing to all the people.

The lack of basic household services to all remains an obstacle to achieving sustainable development and remains a root cause of relentless poverty. It is the poor that suffer most, and it is the poor who are without basic household services. This is a violation of their human rights. But we cannot simply say that we are not doing anything about these issues. As the Minister indicated earlier on, a number of issues are being addressed especially around free basic water and electricity.

The challenge is that municipalities, as they are categorised, are not delivering in the same way. For example, a municipality in an urban area will be more successful than one in a rural area. Take, for example, water; with water there are no service level agreements between the water boards and the municipalities. Another challenge is around the division of powers and functions. In some areas a district may be a water authority, but if you go to another district the local municipality is the water authority.

The systems in one province are very different from the systems in another province. We can look at electricity for example. No service level agreements have yet been signed between Eskom and a number of municipalities. This also creates a very serious problem. For example, Bohlabela district municipality, which is a water service level authority, signed agreements with the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry and the municipalities in the district, such as Maruleng and Bushbuckridge. A memorandum of understanding was also signed with the Bushbuckridge water board.

Some municipalities follow the bulk supply agreement model, which was developed by Salga, the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry and the water utility. Salga is currently conducting service delivery audits in all municipalities in preparation for its national conference, which will be held around 26 to 30 September in Cape Town. This is done as part of evaluating municipal performance since the December 2000 local government elections.

We are not saying everything is well at municipal level, as indicated by different speakers, but we do agree that at a number of levels something is being done. There are challenges but we hope that they are not insurmountable. We will, at the end of the day, be able to deliver as promised. I thank you. [Applause.]

Ms P HOLLANDER: Chairperson, hon Minister for Provincial and Local Government Mr Mufamadi, members of the National Council of Provinces, members of Salga, ladies and gentlemen, my brief is to make reference to two key issues: the provision of free basic services, specifically electricity; and secondly, the difficulties of our municipal billing system associated with the provision of electricity.

Members not only in this House but also in the National Assembly and the legislatures must bear in mind that transforming local government has been a greater challenge than transforming the national and provincial spheres of government. This is, however, not an experience restricted to South Africa, but is an international phenomenon.

This is not to suggest that we have not achieved success in transforming local government. We have provided for the integration of local government in the broader intergovernmental financial system. We have also introduced a measure of stability into the local government equitable share allocation by publishing three-year allocations.

The provision of free basic electricity is primarily aimed at poor and indigent consumers. For practical reasons, however, some municipalities have decided to provide a basic amount free of charge to all consumers. This obviates the cost and time needed to effectively administer a system of identifying the poor and indigent.

With reference to electricity provision, a number of challenges and constraints await municipalities in relation to their readiness to provide these free basic services. In the 2002-03 financial year the government, led by the ANC, increased the equitable share to local government to take account of the need for municipalities to fund free basic electricity and water services to low-income households. This “topped up” the equitable share of local governments.

Two additional windows, namely the free basic water services and the free basic electricity, were created to supplement municipal revenues to deliver free basic services such as electricity, water and sanitation. My colleague, the hon Rev Moatshe, will elaborate on this.

At this point I must remind members that the provision of free basic electricity is hampered by a misunderstanding. This requires of me to give some elaboration. The big question is: who pays for the provision of free basic electricity? Should it be the municipalities or should it be Eskom, or is it the service provider in a particular jurisdiction? Broadly speaking, there is a tug of war between these two authorities.

Eskom argues that the municipalities should finance the cost of free basic services since the national government has made provision for such payments via the equitable share for local government. Eskom therefore argues that it should bill the municipalities for providing the free basic electricity. Municipalities, on the other hand, argue that Eskom, as a public entity, and in line with our President’s address at the inauguration of the executive mayor of Tswane in February 2001, is liable for funding the free basic electricity service. This tug of war has not ended. Negotiations between affected stakeholders have been in progress since May this year.

The stakeholders hold the view that this question cannot be resolved until a review of the local government fiscal framework is completed and a verification of the disaggregated local government information from the 2001 census has also been completed.

With reference to the municipal billing system, its difficulties cannot be viewed in isolation of the complex and protracted transition of our municipalities. We amalgamated 843 municipalities in 1995, and currently we have 284 municipalities. It became crucial for the billing system of all the affected municipalities to be overhauled.

More importantly, according to the 2001 census released in 2003 the number of households has increased by 29% since 1996. Absolute growth of the population in the six metropolitan municipalities has been slightly higher at 33%. Of the total number of households estimated in South Africa in 2001, 36% are located in these six metropolitan municipalities.

It is required of the existing municipal billing system to bill a larger population that has arisen from migration to the urban metropolitan municipalities. The billing system currently in operation is antiquated and not designed to handle the massive growth in urban population. A revamping of the old and segregated billing system of many municipalities is required. In fact, members of the Portfolio Committee on Local Government in the National Assembly make a very strong case for transition in local government to be completed within ten to fifteen years.

This does not mean that elected public representatives must be complacent. On the contrary, we must adopt an incremental approach when instituting and establishing a new IT system. It is not feasible to institute a completely new IT system with the stroke of a pen and within a short time. To “shock” the billing system currently in use will be disruptive.

New personnel are currently in the employ of municipalities and the all round skills level must be comprehensively upgraded. While various kinds of training on local government administration are taking place, training on new forms of billing systems is lacking. The local government Seta ought to display foresight in respect of training on billing systems. A new billing system should, for example, identify indigent households in receipt of free basic electricity. The municipal billing system should in a demonstrative way reflect government policy at the level of service delivery.

We also need to create a complaints office where individual residents have easy access to officials. Municipalities need to embark on a public relations exercise to inform local residents of changes to their technology. Residents must know what they are being billed for and what the revenue is used for. This creates transparency and strengthens the people’s contract.

An incremental approach to a new billing system with a simultaneous monitoring of the billing is urgently required. Such an important task cannot be left to officials in municipalities. Politicians and senior managers, for example, executive members of finance committees in municipalities should take political control of the process. An efficient revenue collection system would result in more revenue, which could be used by municipalities to deliver free basic services to the private sector. A rationalised, consolidated billing system, coupled with a pre-warning system, is required.

In conclusion, municipalities are in an early stage of a major transformation to a fundamentally new system of local government. Presented with huge challenges and hamstrung by limited resources and capacity, municipalities are very definitely making greater progress than they are so often deemed to make. It may be less than the unusual circumstances demand, but given the situation in which they operate they are succeeding on an even keel. In this way we will be strengthening the people’s contract to address the challenges of the local government billing system and accelerate the provision of free basic services. I thank you. Nkosi. Baie dankie. Ke a leboga. [I thank you.] [Applause.]

Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Thank you, Chairperson and colleagues. I am standing in for Mr Mzizi. It is true that when municipalities give out services to communities they must also be able to receive something in return. This is done by way of billing individuals or companies as well as businesses. The biggest challenge to date, which is still ongoing, is the accelerated service delivery and the extended roll-out of the free basic service programme. The delivery of free basic services is especially essential for addressing the basic needs of poor people, and for addressing backlogs created by the apartheid government.

For some municipalities the biggest contributing factor hampering adequate service delivery is the unreliability of the billing system. This is a grave concern for our people on the ground as people are unable to differentiate between free basic services and cost services. This results in poor people having to travel long distances to enquire at their local offices about the shortcomings in the bill that was sent out to that individual.

This process puts an additional burden on people who do not even have money to sustain their own lives. It is unnecessary for poor people to travel long distances to enquire regarding information that should have been readily available and understandable in the bills sent out to people.

The complexity of the billing system is an inconvenience for many people who are confused altogether upon receiving their bills about what system was used to arrive at the amount they have to pay. The bills sent out to people should be simple and easy to understand for all our people on the ground, so that no one should be compelled to question why the rates they have to pay are so high. People should know exactly which services are free and which services are cost services and how such amounts are arrived at.

While it should not be hastily generalised that there is a state of chaos in all municipalities, it has to be acknowledged that there are problems with the billing system that have to be rectified as a matter of urgency in order to remove the extra burden resting on those people who are currently directly affected by this problem.

Municipalities that are still finding it difficult to cope with this task have to be assisted. If training is what is required to deal with this problem then provision has to be made for this. Efficient revenue collection practices can also be learned from businesses that have years of experience in this practice. Therefore businesses should also be high on the list for consideration in dealing with the problem of capacity- building, and making all municipalities self-reliant and capable of delivering all these services that they are meant to deliver to our people on the ground.

Infrastructural problems that are currently still hampering service delivery should be dealt with speedily. Service delivery to the poorest of the poor cannot be taken for granted at this stage. Poor people have struggled for many years before our democracy was adopted. It is incumbent upon the government of the day to ensure that services intended for poor people reach those particular people. It is not enough to have programmes codified on paper that do not reach the ordinary person on the street.

The right conditions have to be created to enable those struggling municipalities to deliver as they are meant to. Efficiency in delivery will also make people less sceptical about paying their bills if they have an understanding of what they are paying for. Resistance is also caused by a lack of understanding of how the current billing system works. It is also important to be conscious of the economic capabilities of people on the ground.

People with low-level incomes cannot be charged high fees for services, which they will not be able to pay in the end because they cannot afford to pay. Therefore, the poorest of the poor are at a greater disadvantage, as they are expected to pay high bills while they cannot even sustain their own lives. This issue has to be considered with sensitivity, as this situation is a result of the imbalances created by the apartheid government so that people today are still grappling with poverty-related problems.

Coupled with the above is also a need for proper financial management skills in municipalities. Some municipalities do not have proper revenue collection skills and methods. They also face having to deal with limited resources and end up not spending moneys collected in an efficient manner.

I want to end by saying that people on the ground need to have access to the correct information. People on the ground need to know that municipalities are supposed to provide poor families with 25 litres of free water a day, and 50 KW of free electricity a month. This information needs to be made available to people on the ground, as this will make a difference to the lives of the poorest of the poor. Those who do not know about this service are not able to claim this service upon not receiving it, because they do not even know that they are meant to receive it. Thank you very much. I’m sorry, I forgot to greet the Minister. Thank you very much.

Mnr P MEYER (Wes-Kaap): Adjunk-voorsitter, agb Minister, ek wil graag eers verskoning aanteken vir my Minister wat nie hier teenwoordig kan wees nie, as gevolg van ’n baie dringende afvaardiging wat hy moet ontvang. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mr P MEYER (Western Cape): Deputy Chairperson, hon Minister, I would first like to tender the apologies of my Minister, who cannot be present here owing to having to receive a very urgent delegation.]

The main objective of local government is the provision of municipal services that are viable, affordable and sustainable. There is an increasing percentage of households that cannot afford to pay, but who depend on these services for a better quality of life.

The Western Cape provincial government’s Ikapa elihlumayo: Hope, delivery and dignity for the next decade has made a commitment of bringing dignity to households living in this province. It is therefore our aim to ensure that at least a basic level of services is provided to them free of charge. This largely contributes to the fight against poverty by improving the quality of life of people who are deprived of an income.

In the Western Cape all municipalities have already implemented free basic services in terms of council resolutions. To date, the main focus has been on the provision of free basic water and electricity. In the Western Cape all 30 municipalities provide a certain amount of free water to their indigent households. The municipalities in the Western Cape have dedicated their efforts in finalising and approving these policies to be able to provide free basic services to their communities.

The national Department of Provincial and Local Government recently embarked on a project to implement free basic sanitation services, starting from 1 December 2004, to indigent households. This is a national policy that we strongly support and therefore we play an active role, through our dedicated involvement in the national task team, in supporting municipalities with the implementation of this strategy as far as it is feasible.

The municipalities recently finalised their budgeting processes for the financial year that commenced on 1 July 2004. All municipalities already provide, over and above the free basic water and electricity, also free basic sanitation and free basic refuse removal to the poor households in their communities.

Municipalities over the past few years have worked very hard at improving payment rates for municipal services from consumers and successfully improved consumer attitudes towards paying for municipal services. Municipalities need to be wary of the fact that some consumers could use the provision of free basic services as reason for non-payment of their service accounts. Municipalities should emphasise through their communication strategies to consumers, particularly those who can pay, that the new policy of free basic services is only to ensure access to free basic services for indigent and very poor households.

The primary role of the provincial Department of Local Government relating to the implementation of free basic services by municipalities is as follows: To provide comments on proposed national strategies on free basic services; to facilitate negotiations between Eskom and municipalities to enter into funding and service level agreements; to facilitate the roll-out of alternative sources of energy; to serve on the national task team to investigate alternative sources of energy; to support the roll-out and implementation of free basic services; and to monitor ongoing provision of free basic services by municipalities to their communities.

The municipalities should communicate to their communities that cost recovery for municipal services remains a key objective of local government, and therefore consumers must pay for services above the basic level. Municipalities should also ensure that they have proper metering, billing and credit control systems in place. The credit control system should be backed by an effective credit control policy that must include an indigent policy, approved by council, to alleviate the plight of the needy.

Section 154(1) of the Constitution places an obligation on national and provincial government by legislative and other means to monitor, support and strengthen the capacity of municipalities to manage their own affairs, to exercise their powers and to perform their functions. Accordingly, this province supports and assists municipalities focusing on the enhancement of their administrative capacity to raise taxes to achieve sustainable development and service delivery, through funds allocated by the national Department of Provincial and Local Government to provinces in terms of the annual Division of Revenue Act.

The Department of Local Government provides assistance through the management support programmes to municipalities that experience capacity or other problems to rectify institutional deficiencies that hamper service delivery and capacity to generate income.

The department’s ultimate objective through the implementation of the management support programme is to assist municipalities to become and remain financially viable entities through the appointment of dedicated, professional service providers and to ensure that an effective, sustainable skills transfer does indeed take place.

The Department of Local Government is also in the process of providing a guideline document to municipalities to assist them with the formulation of their own indigent policy. The guideline document is an attempt to assist municipalities to formulate an indigent policy that is financially affordable and sustainable, and simultaneously to enhance uniformity in this province.

In the abovementioned document an important guideline is that the income of indigent or poor households is a criterion for the classification of a household as indigent or poor, the average monthly consumption of water and electricity also becomes a determinant as to whether or not they qualify for the free basic service or subsidised basic services. In other words, as they soon as they exceed the maximum quantity laid down, they are automatically reclassified. Depending on the circumstances in each case, when reclassified, the relevant household will become eligible for part or full payment for the services used over and above the basic service.

It is suggested that municipalities compile a register of households that qualify as indigent and poor. This register should be updated as soon as is practically possible and cost-effective. Indigent households are those which are too poor to pay anything for the consumption of basic services. Poor households are those which are able to pay something, but are still too poor to pay the full tariff for the basic quantity of service.

Since the guideline document could also have implications for other provincial departments, it will be submitted to them for their comments before being finalised for distribution to municipalities and the national Department of Provincial and Local Government as the Western Cape’s input into a national indigent guideline document. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mnr J W LE ROUX: Voorsitter, agb Minister, agb lede, ek volg graag op my kollega, die agb Piet Meyer. Ek wil net vir agb Meyer sê, noudat die NNP verdwyn het, is hy baie welkom om terug te kom huis toe. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Dit is ongelukkig so dat ons in Suid-Afrika duisende mense het wat in absolute armoede leef en wat dit onmoontlik vind om hul mees basiese behoeftes te bevredig. ’n Dak oor hul kop en kos op die tafel is buite hul bereik. Daar is ook miljoene Suid-Afrikaners wat leef van pensioene en van een of ander vorm van staatshulp. Hierdie groep kan net ’n karige bestaan maak, maar dit bly vir hulle ’n stryd om in hul basiese behoeftes te voorsien. Dit wil ook voorkom asof hierdie mense geen hoop het om uit armoede te ontsnap nie.

Vir dié van ons wat gelukkig is om in die middel- en hoër-inkomstegroep te val, behoort dit ’n voorreg te wees om na die minderbevoorregte mede-Suid- Afrikaners om te sien. Dit is dan ook in hierdie lig dat die DA alles sal doen om die armes van ons land by te staan en te ondersteun. Die lewering van gratis basiese dienste is een van talle pogings om die lot van arm mense te verlig en die DA steun hierdie beleid ten volle. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr J W LE ROUX: Chairman, hon Minister, hon Members, I take pleasure in following on after my colleague, the hon Piet Meyer. I would like to say to the hon Meyer that now that the NNP has disappeared he is very welcome to come home! [Interjections.]

It is unfortunately the case that in South Africa we have thousands of people who live in absolute poverty and who find it impossible even to satisfy their most basic needs. A roof over their heads and food on the table are beyond their reach. There are also millions of South Africans who live on pensions and some or other form of state aid. This group can only eke out a meagre existence, and it remains a struggle for them to provide in their basic needs. It would also appear as if these people have no hope of escaping poverty.

To those of us who are fortunate enough to fall in the middle-income and high-income groups, it should be a privilege to look after the less privileged fellow South Africans. It is therefore in this light that the DA would do everything to help and support the poor of this country. The delivery of free basic services is one of many efforts to alleviate the plight of the poor and the DA supports this policy wholeheartedly.]

The debate today is on how to accelerate the provision of free basic services and on how the billing system should work. The debate should also include plans on how to accelerate the creation of wealth and jobs for our people. We are now concentrating on how to share the cake, and unfortunately the cake is getting smaller.

All indications are that the gap between rich and poor is widening and that on average we are poorer now than 10 years ago. The economy is still shedding jobs and more people are destitute now than ever before. It is unfortunately true that more people now have to rely on the state just to survive.

In the short term local government must determine the scope and size of the safety net and how it will be administered in a just and equitable way. In the long term the task must be how to solve the unemployment and poverty problems. The obvious dangers of the system of free basic services for some is that it may have the effect that people who should and could afford to pay simply stop paying. This trend puts local government under severe pressure and at the moment more and more local authorities have serious financial problems due to non-payment for services. As my colleague Mr Worth noted, billions of rands are outstanding and there is very little hope of recovering this debt. To administer and control the system is in itself a problem, and we must be careful that we do not create a huge bureaucracy that will defeat the object of helping the poor.

The long-term solution does not lie in a better billing system or in more free basic services, but rather in rapid economic growth and job creation. At present our economy is growing at between 2% and 3% per year and our population is growing at roughly the same rate. Added to the problem is that millions of illegal, unskilled immigrants are settling in South Africa, and at the same time the economy is still shedding jobs.

It is clear that if the economy does not grow at at least 6% per year we will remain in the poverty trap. How to achieve rapid growth is a major debate and I will touch on just two aspects of growth, namely direct investment and deregulation. Without huge foreign investment rapid growth is not possible.

Die beskikbare buitelandse beleggingskapitaal is in die hande van ontwikkelde Westerse lande. Die persepsie in hierdie lande is dat Suid- Afrika nog steeds nie kommunisme verwerp het nie en dat ons flirtasie met Iran and ons houding jeens Mugabe ernstig veroordeel moet word.

Beleggers het baie opsies, en baie lande ding mee om beleggers te lok. Dit wil voorkom asof Suid-Afrika nie omgee wie ons vriende is en wat die Weste van ons dink nie. Die arm mense van ons land sal die prys hiervoor betaal.

Wat deregulering betref, net die volgende: Daar is reg oor die wêreld bewys dat lande wat ekonomies die beste presteer, die lande is waar daar die minste regulering van die ekonomie plaasvind. Dit is dan ook op hierdie gebied wat die plaaslike owerheid ’n uiters belangrike rol moet speel en moet ’n klimaat skep waarbinne dit maklik en winsgewend is om sake te doen. Veral kleinsake-ontwikkeling moet sonder burokratiese inmenging aangemoedig word om te vestig en te floreer. Ek dank u. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[The available foreign investment capital is in the hands of the developed Western countries. The perception in these countries is that South Africa has still not rejected communism and that our flirtation with Iraq and our attitude towards Mugabe should be strongly condemned.

Investors have many options, and many countries are competing to attract investors. It would appear as if South Africa does not care who our friends are or what the West thinks of us. The poor of our country will pay the price for this.

With regard to deregulation, just the following: It has been proved throughout the world that countries that perform best economically are those where there is the least regulation of the economy. It is in this area then that the local government must play an extremely important role and must create a climate within which it is easy and profitable to do business. Small business development, in particular, should be encouraged to become established and to flourish without any bureaucratic intervention. I thank you. [Applause.]

Cllr D TWALA (Salga): Chairperson, hon Minister for Provincial and Local Government and hon members, as part of the government’s overall strategy to alleviate poverty in the country, a policy for the provision of free basic services has been established. Since July 2001 all municipalities have been expected to comply with the requirement of providing free basic services to poor and indigent households in their communities. To this end almost every municipality in the country is already providing free basic services to poor and indigent communities.

A number of challenges and constraints are still facing municipalities, and the most outstanding ones relate to technical and financial conditions, for example, the billing system. Although a portion for provision of free basic services has been built into the equitable share allocation formula and national collected revenue is already distributed to cover free basic services, municipalities still find themselves in a difficult financial position to comfortably implement the policy on the provision of free basic services. All attempts are made to urge municipalities to utilise the portion of the equitable share meant for the provision of free basic services to poor and indigent communities.

For those municipalities that are already complying with the requirements of providing the free basic services a challenge still exists with regard to the billing system and how to reflect the portion of free basic services in the municipal services bills to customers.

Although the provision of free basic services is primarily aimed at poor and indigent residential customers some municipalities, because of the billing system or for practical reasons, decided to provide a basic amount free of charge to all residential consumers. This kind of action of providing free basic services to all residential consumers could be attributed to the cost and time needed to effectively administer a system of targeting only the poor and indigent.

The challenge associated with the understanding or interpretation of the Municipal Services Bill by consumers has implications for municipalities, as consumers always find an excuse not to pay for services. On the other hand, some councillors who have the responsibility to ensure that the process, including the explanation of the Municipal Services Bill and the progress of the implementation of free basic services is clearly understood by consumers, do not clearly understand these Bills themselves.

There are three common ways in which municipalities are rolling out free basic services, and these are a rising block tariff, with the first block being the free basic amount for all residential consumers; targeted credits or subsidies to poor residential consumers; and service level targeting. Of course, local circumstances determine the options or mix of options that different municipalities choose to apply. Definitions of “basic services” and “indigent consumers” still pose quite a challenge and it is left to municipalities to decide on this matter as there is no uniform or binding policy position.

In dealing with the billing system in order to provide consumers with an understanding of the provision of free basic services, one may propose that the residential Municipal Services Bill format be revised to include explanatory notes at the back of the Bill. The information as set out below may help consumers to read and understand the Municipal Services Bill if incorporated in the billing system. Salga has commissioned Ernest and Young to compile a best-practice manual, including credit control and indigent policies. I thank you. [Applause.]

Rev P MOATSHE: Chairperson, Minister and hon members, Mr Le Roux invites Mr Meyer to say he must come home. Is the DA the home of the rich or the home of the poor? When did it become a home of the poor as well? [Laughter.] What does the track record of the DA say to South Africans? My understanding is that good news to the rich is bad news to the poor. [Interjections.] And good news to the poor is bad news to the rich. How do you try to sit on two chairs? What a contradiction! How do you say you support the free basic services, and with the same tongue you say that free basic services will encourage other people not to pay? What a contradiction!

Therefore, one day the DA will come home to the ANC. It is the party and the movement to which all people will come. [Interjections.] Let me underline my statement. The then Nationalist Party said that the ANC was a communist party. But today the lion and the lamb are sitting together. [Interjections.] “Die mamba en die baba speel saam.” [The mamba and the baby are at play.] Give us a chance until 2009. “Die poppe sal dans!” [The sparks will fly.] [Interjections.]

One of the government’s key areas of focus, as identified by the President in his state of the nation address, is the need to ensure that within the next five years all households have easy access to clean running water and that during this current year more than 300 000 households are provided with basic sanitation. This programme of action is a clear expression by government on the commitment to providing free basic water and sanitation to the poor majority who, for legitimate reasons, cannot afford to pay for essential municipal services.

Metsi ke neo ya Modimo mme a tshwanetse go somarelwa ke botlhe. Metswedi ya metsi a lefatshe la rona ga e letle MaAfrika Borwa go dirisa metsi botlhaswa. Go tlhwatlhwa e kgolo go loga mafaratlhatlha a mesele ya metsi go a gorosa kwa mafelong a a leng kwa motsheo.

Tlhomesetso ya mesele e e seng ka fa molaong e koafatsa kelelo ya metsi go a gorosa kwa baaging. Batlolamolao ba ba tswelelang pele ka ditlhomesetso ba tshwanetse ke kotlhao. A e nne maikarabelo a moagi mongwe le mongwe gore fa metsi a pumpunyega go tswa me meseleng, a begelwe lefapha mo makatakong. Go seng jalo Motswana o kile a re, tlhapi solofela leraga, metsi tšhele o a lebile. (Translation of Setswana pararaphs follows.)

[Water is a God-given gift, hence it should be used sparingly by all of us. The water resources of our country are too limited for South Africans to be wasting water. It is also very expensive to build a network of waterpipes for delivering water to far-away places.

The connection of illegal waterpipes weakens the flow of water to residents. The offenders who continue doing this should face punishment. Let it be the responsibility of each and every resident to report burst water pipes to the department when this happens. We will find ourselves faced with a difficult situation if we do not take care of the few resources that we are left with.]

Suid-Afrika is een van slegs ’n paar lande waar water as ’n basiese mensereg bestempel word. Ons nasionale water- en sanitasieprogram, wat een van die grootste nasionale programme in Afrika is, is daarop gemik om uitvoering aan hierdie basiese mensereg te gee. Ons moet onsself telkemale daaraan herinner dat die ANC in 1994 ’n ondemokratiese plaaslike regeringstelsel oorgeneem het, wat in duie gestort het. Die destydse stelsel was gekenmerk deur swak bestuur en beplanning. Die ANC was vasbeslote om daardie stelsel om te keer, en het sedertdien grootskaalse verandering aan plaaslike regering aangebring in ons eerste 10 jaar van demokrasie.

Terwyl ons die tweede dekade van vryheid binnegaan, is ons vasbeslote om die nuwe raamwerk vir plaaslike regering nog verder te versterk om te verseker dat ons mense in omstandighede lewe wat hul eer en menslikheid respekteer.

Ons Grondwet waarborg aan alle Suid-Afrikaners die reg op toegang tot gratis basiese water, mnr Le Roux, en sanitasie. Die ANC sal daarom verseker dat die regering gefokus bly om hierdie reg te verseker, om ons mense uit die haglike omstandighede waarin apartheid hulle gedompel het, te bevry. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[South Africa is one of only one of a few countries where water is regarded as being a basic human right. Our national water and sanitation programme, which is one of the largest national programmes in Africa, aims at giving

ANC in 1994 took over an undemocratic system of local government, which has collapsed. The former system was characterised by poor management and planning. The ANC was determined to turn that system around, and has since made large-scale changes to local government in the first 10 years of democracy.

While we are entering the second decade of freedom we are determined further to strengthen the new framework for local government to ensure that our people live in conditions that respect their honour and humanity.

Our Constitution guarantees all South Africans the right to access to free basic water, Mr Le Roux, and sanitation. The ANC will therefore ensure that the government remains focused on ensuring this right, to set our people free from the desperate circumstances in which they were plunged by apartheid.]

This progress initiative is a direct response to the immediate challenges that we face as a nation, and as we march to our second decade of freedom, we must speed up and intensify our efforts to provide services and opportunities such as water and sanitation to all South Africans and further forge ahead, united in strengthening a people’s contract to create work and fight poverty. I thank you. [Applause.]

The MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Madam Chair, allow me to thank all the delegates and members who participated in this discussion. In particular I want to thank those members who made use of this opportunity to make constructive proposals as to what could be done to improve the situation on the ground. This discussion that we have just had is a very important one, for it bears in very material ways upon the lives of the people who sent us here to be their public representatives.

It is a matter of such importance that it cannot and should not be made into a site of contestation. I could only marvel at the ability of hon members Worth and Le Roux to deploy their collective energy for negative uses. They allowed their obsession with opposing government to impair their ability to reason. I could not for the life of me understand the basis on which such a generalised and sweeping statement could be made about municipal debt.

The hon Mr Worth says the debt has been escalating, which is true, and there are no prospects of recovering the money that is owed. I remember very well that on previous occasions we indicated that we had put in place a municipal revenue enhancement programme that enabled us, between March 2003 and July 2003, to assist municipalities that were owed about R1,4 billion by provincial and national government departments, to recover within four months at least R900 million of the money which was owed to them.

Quite clearly, as I said, the hon member is allowing his obsession with opposing to create a gap between what he wishes to see, and what actually exists on the ground. The hon member goes on to say that the municipal infrastructure grant does not represent a new fiscal injection into infrastructure investment. Quite clearly he does not understand the economics of the issue, because in the first instance we are saying that we have consolidated the disparate grants that existed hitherto. This gives you the possibility to achieve economies of scale and to crowd in non-public-sector resources, which you would otherwise not be able to harness, unless you consolidated the grants in the way that we have done in order to optimise the impact on the ground. Why he is unable to understand this, I don’t know; only he knows.

Indeed, it cannot be correct, as Mr Le Roux argues, that more people are destitute now than before 1994, unless he does not understand what is meant by “destitute”. In 1994 government social spending amounted to R10 billion per annum and this has been increased to R34 billion per annum in 2003, in order to ensure that we touch the lives of people who were neglected in more positive ways than was the case in the past.

Perhaps if one were to try to understand the basis of this kind of archaic reasoning, one has to trace this to the display that the hon member did not waste time to make, the display of his rabid anticommunism and xenophobia, blaming the problems that we have as South Africans, and which we must collectively solve, on what he calls illegal immigrants.

Of course, the hon member wasted no time to try once more to recruit a member from the NNP into the corner of counter-revolution and reaction. I wish he could be far-sighted enough to realise that he is fishing in a shrinking pond. Thank you, Madam Chairperson. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Thank you, hon Minister. I want to thank the hon members from Salga for coming to this House to participate in this important debate. I also want to thank the Minister for honouring this House with his presence and by leading the subject for discussion that we have just concluded. I hope that members will agree with me when I say the debate was fruitful, and also that we are on the right track in making sure that our people’s lives are better.

Hon Minister, I want to assure you …

Baye bathi ngesintu: “Imoto ehambayo ikhonkothwa yizinja, kodwa emileyo ziyayichamela”. Ngalawo mazwi … [There is a saying that goes: The dogs chase a moving car, but if it is not moving, they urinate against the wheel. With these few words …]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Minister, your time has expired.

The MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: I thank you.

Debate concluded.

The Council adjourned at 17:14. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS



                      WEDNESDAY, 18 AUGUST 2004

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Defence

 Report and Financial Statements of the Armaments Corporation of South
 Africa Limited (ARMSCOR) for 2003-2004, including the Report of the
 Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2003-2004.

                      THURSDAY, 19 AUGUST 2004

                            ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. Introduction of Bills

 (1)    The Minister of Finance


     (i)     Finance Bill [B 13 - 2004] (National Assembly - sec 77)
     (ii)    National Payment System Amendment Bill [B 14 - 2004]
          (National Assembly - sec 75)

     Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on Finance of
     the National Assembly, as well as referral to the Joint Tagging
     Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint Rule 160, on
     19 August 2004 and 20 August 2004, respectively.

     In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of
     the Bills may be submitted to the JTM within three parliamentary
     working days.

1. Draft bills submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159

 (1)    National Payment System Amendment Bill, 2004, submitted by the
     Minister of Finance on 17 August 2004. Referred to the Portfolio
     Committee on Finance and the Select Committee on Finance.


 (2)    Government Employees Pension Law Amendment Bill, 2004, submitted
     by the Minister of Finance on 17 August 2004. Referred to the
     Portfolio Committee on Finance and the Select Committee on
     Finance.

National Council of Provinces

1. Messages from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces in respect of Bills passed by Assembly and transmitted to Council

 (1)    Bills passed by National Assembly on 19 August 2004 and
     transmitted for concurrence:


     (i)     Choice on Termination of Pregnancy Amendment Bill [B 72B -
          2003] (National Assembly - sec 76)


     (ii)    Dental Technicians Amendment Bill [B 63 - 2003] (National
          Assembly - sec 76)


     (iii)   Immigration Amendment Bill [B 11B - 2004] (National
          Assembly - sec 75)

     The Bills have been referred to the Select Committee on Social
     Services of the National Council of Provinces.

1. Referrals to committees of papers tabled:

 The following papers have been tabled and are now referred to the
 relevant committees as mentioned below:


 (1)    The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on
     Finance:


     (a)     Annual Report of the South African Reserve Bank - Bank
          Supervision Department for 2003 [RP 20-2004].

     (b)     Proclamation No 37 published in Government Gazette No
          26543 dated 8 July 2004: Commencement of the Special Pensions
          Second Amendment Act, 2003 (Act No 30 of 2003).


 (2)    The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on Local
     Government and Administration:

     Report of the work of the Interim Management Team (IMT) in the
     Eastern Cape for the period November 2002 to March 2004.


 (3)    The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on
     Education and Recreation:

     Report and Financial Statements of Umalusi - Council for Quality
     Assurance in General and Further Education and Training for 2003-
     2004, including the Report of Independent Auditors on the
     Financial Statements for 2003-2004.


 (4)    The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on
     Security and Constitutional Affairs for consideration and report:


     (a)     Protocol on Legal Affairs in the Southern African
          Development Community (SADC), in terms of section 231(2) of
          the Constitution, 1996 (Act No 108 of 1996).

     (b)     Explanatory Memorandum on the Protocol on Legal Affairs in
          the Southern African Development Community (SADC).

     (c)     Protocol of the Court of Justice of the African Union, in
          terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996 (Act No 108
          of 1996).

     (d)     Explanatory Memorandum on the Protocol of the Court of
          Justice of the African Union.

     (e)     Treaty between the Government of the Republic of South
          Africa and the Government of the Republic of India on
          Extradition, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution,
          1996 (Act No 108 of 1996).

     (f)     Treaty between the Government of the Republic of South
          Africa and the Government of the Republic of India on Mutual
          Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters, in terms of section
          231(2) of the Constitution, 1996 (Act No 108 of 1996).

     (g)     Explanatory Memorandum on Treaty between the Government of
          the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the
          Republic of India on Extradition and Mutual Legal Assistance
          in Criminal Matters.

     (h)     Report regarding the provisional suspension of Magistrate
          S E Tebe without remuneration pending an investigation into
          his fitness to hold office, in terms of section 13(4A)(b) of
          the Magistrates Act, 1993 (Act No 90 of 1993).


 (5)    The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on
     Security and Constitutional Affairs:


     (a)     Explanatory Memorandum on the Designation of the United
          Kingdom, in terms of section 2(2)(a) of the Cross-Border
          Insolvency Act, 2000 (Act No 42 of 2000).

     (b)     Report and Financial Statements of the Armaments
          Corporation of South Africa Limited (ARMSCOR) for 2003-2004,
          including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the
          Financial Statements for 2003-2004.

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Finance

 (a)    Report and Financial Statements of the Development Bank of
     Southern Africa Limited for 2003-2004, including the Report of the
     Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2003-2004.

 (b)    Projects of the Development Bank of Southern Africa Limited for
     2003-2004.

                       FRIDAY, 20 AUGUST 2004

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism:

 (1)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 20 August 2004 in terms of
     Joint Rule 160(3), classified the following Bill as a section 75
     Bill:


     (i)     Companies Amendment Bill [B 10 - 2004] (National Assembly
          - sec 75)


    1) The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 20 August 2004 in terms of
       Joint Rule 160(4), classified the following Bill as a section 76
       Bill:



                       MONDAY, 23 AUGUST 2004

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Council of Provinces

1. Membership of Council: The vacancy in the representation of the Limpopo Province, that occurred owing to the vacation of her seat on 30 June 2004 by Ms N A Ndalane, was filled by the nomination of Mr M J Sibiya with effect from 17 August 2004.

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Health Report and Financial Statements of the Compensation Commissioner for Occupational Diseases for 2002-2003, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003.

2. The Minister of Trade and Industry Report and Financial Statements of the Export Credit Insurance Corporation of South Africa Limited (ECIC) for 2003-2004, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2003- 2004.

                    TUESDAY, 24 AUGUST 2004
   

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Council of Provinces

1. Messages from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces in respect of Bills passed by Assembly and transmitted to Council

 (1)    Bill passed by National Assembly on 24 August 2004 and
     transmitted for concurrence:


     (i)     Companies Amendment Bill [B 10B - 2004] (National Assembly
          - sec 75)

     The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on Economic and
     Foreign Affairs of the National Council of Provinces.

1. Referrals to committees of papers tabled

 The following papers have been tabled and are now referred to the
 relevant committees as mentioned below:


 (1)    The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on
     Labour and Public Enterprises for consideration and report:


     (a)     Decisions of the 1999 Beijing Congress - Universal Postal
          Union (Final Text of the Acts signed at Beijing), tabled in
          terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.

     (b)     Explanatory Memorandum to the Decisions of the 1999
          Beijing Congress - Universal Postal Union.


 (2)    The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on
     Finance:


     (a)     Report and Financial Statements of the Development Bank of
          Southern Africa Limited for 2003-2004, including the Report of
          the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2003-
          2004.

     (b)     Projects of the Development Bank of Southern Africa
          Limited for 2003-2004.

TABLINGS

National Council of Provinces

1. The Chairperson (a) The following statements have been submitted to the National Council of Provinces by the MEC for Local Government, Housing and Traditional Affairs in Kwazulu-Natal:

   (i) Forensic Investigation into Hibiscus Coast Municipality, Kwazulu-Natal, in terms of section 106(3) of the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act, 2000 (Act No 32 of 2000).

   (ii) Forensic Investigation into Ubuhlebezwe Municipality, Kwazulu-Natal, in terms of section 106(3) of the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act, 2000 (Act No 32 of 2000).

   Referrred to the Select Committee on Local Government and Administration. Copies of the statements are available from the Office of the Clerk of Papers.