TUESDAY, 5 APRIL 2005 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 14:03.

The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

WELCOMING OF PARLIAMENTARY DELEGATION FROM KINGDOM OF LESOTHO TO PARLIAMENT

                           (Announcement)

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, welcome back to the House.

We have with us today a distinguished delegation from the parliament of Lesotho led by the speaker, Mrs Motsamai. Welcome to the House, Madam, as well as your delegation. [Applause.]

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move the following substantive motion:

That this House appoints an ad hoc committee to investigate and consider the conduct of hon members accused of and those convicted of criminal offences involving dishonesty and the theft of public money, and to report to the House thereon with recommendations concerning the appropriate action to be taken.

[Interjections.]

Mr T D LEE: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that I intend moving the following motion:

That this House should debate the government’s failed policy in respect of sport in order to give effect to the agreement between the hon Minister of Finance and me to debate the matter publicly.

                         MEMBERS’STATEMENTS


                 TRIBUTE TO SOLOMON KALUSHI MAHLANGU

                        (Member’s Statement)

Ms T V TOBIAS (ANC): Thank you, Deputy Speaker. The rise of Fascism in Germany and Italy leading to the Second World War, coupled with the rise of Afrikaner Nationalism in South Africa, and the continued arrogance of the apartheid regime infuriated many young people. Among the protesting youth was Solomon Kalushi Mahlangu who was merely 19 years old by then, but already at the helm, grappling with the destiny of his country. Many of the youths who were persecuted resolved to move into exile to join MK as apartheid increased in its brutality. By the age of 23 he returned from exile, following his training as a member of MK. His intention was to establish the anniversary of June 16, highlighting the plight of our youth under the apartheid regime.

Unfortunately, he and two of his comrades, Monty Motloung and George Mahlangu were captured by the apartheid security services. This was after a gun battle with the SA police in which two white civilians were killed. George Mahlangu had managed to escape from arrest, while Monty was beaten so severely that he could not stand trial. Even though Solomon Mahlangu had not fired a shot during the gun battle, he was charged with murder, sentenced to death and executed by hanging on 6 April 1979, despite an international outcry for his release.

Before his hanging, he uttered these famous words while facing the gallows:

My blood will nourish the tree that will bear the fruits of freedom.
Tell my people that I love them. They must continue the fight.

Tomorrow marks the 25th anniversary of his hanging. The fitting tribute to this and many such gallant fighters throughout the various epochs of political struggle will be to ensure that we effectively implement programmes to emancipate our youth economically and in all other aspects of development. I thank you. [Applause.]

                    GENERAL ELECTIONS IN ZIMBABWE

                        (Member’s Statement)

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION (DA): Madam Deputy Speaker, the United Nations Secretary-General, Mr Kofi Annan, has described the Zimbabwean electoral process as, “not having countered the sense of disadvantage felt by opposition political parties who consider the conditions were unfair”. It is therefore quite clear that, viewed in their full context, the parliamentary elections were neither free nor fair.

The Zimbabwean government failed to meet key elements of the Mauritius Protocol to which they and South Africa are both signatories. Many reports suggest that the elections were conducted in a climate of intimidation and repression that prevented the people of Zimbabwe from expressing their democratic will freely.

These reports were wilfully ignored by the ANC. The South African government and the ANC went to Zimbabwe determined to declare the election free and fair, come what may, and with their reports which they had already had certified by President Mbeki.

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Why not?

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION (DA): As the hon Minister says, why not! President Mugabe indeed has already thanked the ANC by stating that a vote for Zanu is a vote for the ANC. The ANC’s rush to judgement has therefore shamed this Parliament and our Constitution, and damaged South Africa’s international credibility. [Interjections.][Applause.]

                 ALLEGED NEGLIGENCE ON PART OF SAPS

                        (Member’s Statement)

Mr V B NDLOVU (IFP): Madam Deputy Speaker, we do know that members of the SA Police Service work under very demanding conditions and most of the time they do try their best to protect the citizens of our country. We rely on them to keep us safe. It is therefore very disturbing when crime occurs as a direct result of negligence on the part of the very people, the SAPS, who are tasked with protecting us.

Two weeks ago a man was charged with raping and murdering a three-year-old toddler at Sebokeng’s KwaMasiza hostel in Gauteng. The very man was previously arrested, and later escaped, after allegedly being caught raping and assaulting a mentally disturbed woman, also near the KwaMasiza hostel in Sebokeng in July last year. Police have allegedly admitted that for eight months after his escape they had made no attempts to find him and had not opened a docket for his escape.

This heinous crime could and should have been avoided. An innocent toddler has lost her life because an evil criminal, who should have been behind bars, was left to roam the streets. We urge the relevant authorities to investigate this incident thoroughly and take the necessary action to ensure that an incident of this nature never, ever happens again. We also offer our deepest condolences to the family of the toddler.

                    DONATION FOR CANCER OPERATION

                        (Member’s Statement)

Mrs M S MAINE (ANC): Madam Deputy Speaker . . .

Mokgatlo wa African National Congress o amegile maikutlo ka tshwetso e e tserweng ke rre Tebogo Diutlwetseng, yo o itsegeng segolo ka Mr T, ka kabelo ya R20 000 e a faneng ka yona go duelela karo e e ka bolokang botshelo jwa ga Kabo Mobeyane. Kabelo ego e ntshitswe ka 21 Mopitlwe 2005, ka Letsatsi la Ditshwanelo tsa Botho.

Kabelo Mobeyane yo o nang le dingwaga di le nne go tswa kwa Magogwe kwa Mafikeng, o bolawa ke nngwe ya malwetsi a a matshosetsi thata e leng bolwetsi jwa kankere ya leitlho. Go ya ka kabelo ya ga Mr T, ba lelapa la ga Mobeyane ba tla itse mo nakong e e sa fediseng pelo ka karo ya ngwana wa bona.

Puso e e eteletsweng pele ke Mokgatlo wa African National Congress, e itlamile go tlamela ka tlhokomelo ya boitekanelo e e tla kgonwang ke botlhe mo Aforika Borwa. Go feta foo, African National Congress e ema nokeng boithaopi, go adimisana ka letsogo la thuso go bao ba le tlhokang. Re a leboga. (Translation of Tswana paragraphs follows.)

[The African National Congress is touched by the decision taken by Mr Tebogo Diutlwetseng, who is best known as Mr T, to donate R20 000 for the operation that can save the life of Kabo Mobeyane. The donation was made on 21 March 2005, Human Rights Day.

The four-year-old Kabelo Mobeyane from Magogwe in Mafikeng is suffering from one of the deadliest diseases, namely cancer of the eye. In terms of Mr T’s donation, the Mobeyane family will be notified within a very short space of time of the operation that is to be performed on their child.

The African-National-Congress-led government has committed itself to providing affordable, basic health care to all South Africans. Over and above that, the African National Congress supports volunteers who are extending a helping hand to those who are in need. Thank You.]

                      INDEPENDENCE OF JUDICIARY

                        (Member’s Statement)

Mr M DIKO (UDM): Madam Deputy Speaker, the UDM is concerned about the creeping infringement on the judiciary’s independence that has become a sustained campaign since the beginning of the year. In retrospect it seems the ANC’s statement on 8 January 2005 about the lack of transformation in the judiciary was specifically designed to silence critics at the outset of the campaign, and thereby prevent a frank and open discussion of what is now transpiring. For instance, a draft Bill regarding the Justice College that had previously intended to create an institution independent of the state, now seeks to maintain a state-sponsored institution.

Carmel Rickard says in the latest Sunday Times:

The attitude that emerges from the tone and provisions of the draft
Bill is that judiciary officials are rather troublesome minor civil
servants who must be constantly watched and micromanaged.

Neither the UDM nor the judiciary has questioned the undeniable need for transformation, but the Department of Justice itself is not a blueprint for transformation. In fact, while officials are leaving the department at an alarming rate, replacements are not being appointed. One can only deduce from this that transformation is not the issue, but rather a judiciary that does not always bow to the will of the executive. Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: In his statement the hon member is referring to a Bill that is before a committee of this House, and in that sense he’s anticipating the subject matter, which is clearly out of order.

Mr M DIKO (UDM): Madam Speaker, this is a quote. The Bill that I’m referring to was mentioned in the Sunday Times, and I quoted from the article, therefore it is properly in order. [Interjections.]

                   EXPANSION OF ADDO ELEPHANT PARK


                        (Member’s Statement)

Ms C B JOHNSON (NNP): Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The addition of two islands to the Addo Elephant Park in the Eastern Cape is a very important development in respect of conservation, ecotourism and much-needed economic growth for the people in the Eastern Cape.

The addition of the two islands to the park, as well as the official opening of the new Matyholweni Rest Camp, will mean that the local communities in the Sunday’s River region of the Eastern Cape are directly benefiting from the revenue so generated and from the greater influx of tourists to the area. Visitors to the Addo Elephant Park will now be able to experience the Big Seven in one conservation area.

The construction of the new camp was made possible by a R6, 5 million poverty relief grant from the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism. The Mayibuye Ndlovu Development Trust, which is a community forum representing the various communities, will receive between 6% and 12% of the revenue generated. These funds will be utilised to finance much-needed community development projects.

This step by the department shows that it is possible to utilise our natural resources, and in particular ecotourism, to ensure long-term economic growth so that the people will share in the wealth of this country. Thank you.

                  ATTACKS ON MINORITIES IN ZIMBABWE


                        (Member’s Statement)

Mnr W D SPIES (VF Plus): Agbare Adjunkspeaker, demokrasie op die Zimbabwe manier het minderhede in die land reeds twee maal in die steek gelaat.

In 1982 stuur President Mugabe sy Vyfde Brigade om 20 000 Matabeles uit te wis na dreigende opstand. Die nasionale voorsitter van Zanu-PF, Dr John Nkomo . . . [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr W D SPIES (FF Plus): Hon Deputy Speaker, the Zimbabwean style of democracy has let the minorities in that country down twice already.

In 1982 President Mugabe sent his Fifth Brigade to wipe out 20 000 Matabeles after they threatened to revolt. The national chairperson of Zanu- PF, Dr John Nkomo . . . [Interjections.]]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, it is very difficult for me seated here to follow what the hon member is saying. There will be a report to this House and anyone of us who would like to make comments will have an opportunity to do so. But now I would like to hear what the hon member is saying.

Mr W D SPIES (FF Plus): In 1982 stuur President Mugabe sy Vyfde Brigade om 20 000 Matabeles uit te wis na ʼn dreigende opstand. Die nasionale voorsitter van Zanu-PF, Dr John Nkomo, bestempel die gebeure verlede week in ‘n TV-onderhoud as ‘n verskriklike misverstand wat nooit weer herhaal mag word nie.

Die afgelope vyf jaar is meer as 4 000 kommersiële boere deur Zanu-PF van hulle plase verwyder - dikwels met geweld en sonder vergoeding. Die MDC se veroordeling daarvan is blatant rassisties deur Zanu-PF, as vernaamste propagandamedium, teen die MDC gebruik.

Vreedsame verkiesings is ‘n noodsaaklike minimum en nie ‘n luukse waarvoor ons hande moet saamslaan en dankie sê terwyl alle ander reëls van regverdigheid oorboord gegooi word nie.

Die VF Plus distansieer hom daarom van die standpunt van die Suid- Afrikaanse waarnemerspanne wat sou aanvoer dat die verkiesing in Zimbabwe vry en regverdig was.

Ek kan my nie neerlê by ‘n demokrasie wat duisende mense se lewens neem en hul eiendom gryp en dit daarna as ‘n verskriklike misverstand afmaak nie.

Die tyd is ryp dat in Suid-Afrika gepraat word oor maniere waardeur ons kan verseker dat die vergryp teen minderhede in Zimbabwe nie hier herhaal sal word nie. ‘n Goeie begin sal wees om eerlik te wees oor wat in Zimbabwe gebeur het. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[In 1982 President Mugabe sent his Fifth Brigade to wipe out 20 000 Matabeles after they threatened to revolt. In a TV interview last week the national chairperson of Zanu-PF, Dr John Nkomo, labelled the event as a terrible misunderstanding that must never be repeated.

In the last five years more than 4 000 commercial farmers have been removed from their farms by Zanu-PF – often violently and without compensation. The MDC’s condemnation of this was used in a blatantly racist way by Zanu-PF, as the chief propaganda medium, against the MDC.

Peaceful elections are a bare essential and not a luxury that we have to applaud and say thank you for, while all other rules of justice are thrown overboard.

The FF Plus distances itself from the standpoint of the South African observer teams which now allege that the election in Zimbabwe was free and fair.

I cannot associate myself with a democracy that takes thousands of people’s lives and grabs their property and then passes it off as a terrible misunderstanding.

The time has come in South Africa to discuss methods of ensuring that the transgressions against minorities in Zimbabwe will not be repeated here. A good start would be to be honest about what happened in Zimbabwe.]

EMHLWANENI HIGH SCHOOL RECEIVES MATHEMATICS AND SCIENCE EXCELLENCE AWARD

                        (Member’s Statement)

Mnu E N MTHETHWA (ANC): Phini likaSomlomo, siwuKhongolose sihalalisela iMhlwaneni High School yaseMnambithi ngokuvelela kwayo ezifundweni zezibalo nesayensi okwenze yathola umklomelo wokuba ngongqa-phambili. Lo mklomelo owaziwa ngokuthi i-Mathematics and Science Excellence Award ugqugquzelwa uMnyango wezeMfundo uwubhekise kakhulukazi kulezo zikole ezisezindaweni ezisemakhaya, ezihlwempu futhi ezibonakalisa ikhono kulezi zifundo.

Lesi sikole siseMnambithi endaweni yasemakhaya, eDriefontein, ngaphansi kweNkosi umama uKhumalo. Lesi sikole siyefana nezinye eziningi ezisemakhaya kodwa abazali nomphakathi babambe elikhulu iqhaza ekwakhiweni nasekuphathweni kwaso. Bheka nje lesi sikole sinendawo yezinsiza kwezobusayensi - ilabhorethri, eyakhiwa ngumphakathi.

Thina-ke singuKhongolose futhi singuhulumeni sizinikele emfundweni esezingeni eliphakeme kubantwana bethu nesizwe sonkana. Sinxusa futhi abafundi, othisha nabazali ukuthi baqhubeke babambisane nathi ekwakheni isimo sokufunda ukue sibe ngesithakaselwa umuntu wonke. Sithi-ke othisha, abazali, abafundi neminye imiphakathi abathathe isibonelo esihle kulesi sikole saseMhlwanweni High School. Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of Zulu speech follows.)

[Mr E N MTHETHWA (ANC): Deputy Madam Speaker, we as the ANC congratulate Mhlwanweni High Shool at Mnambithi for excelling in Mathematics and Science, which earned them an award of excellence. This award is known as the Mathematics and Science Excellence Award. This event was organised by the Department of Education and is aimed at encouraging poor rural schools, particularly those which are demonstrating potential.

This school in question is in the rural area of Mnambithi, at Driefontein, under the Tribal Authority of Mrs Khumalo. This school is the same as many other rural schools, except that parents and the community are playing a pivotal role in its management and administration. This school has a laboratory, which was built by the community.

We as the ANC are committed to providing better education for our children and the nation at large. We urge students, educators and parents to work with us in developing a learning environment that is appealing to all. We encourage educators, parents, students and other communities to use Mhwanweni High School as their model. Thank you. [Applause.]]

            SA PARLIAMENTARY OBSERVER MISSION TO ZIMBABWE

                        (Member’s Statement)

Mr R JANKIELSOHN (DA): Deputy Speaker, the personal attack on me by the ANC Chief Whip is merely an attempt to shift the focus away from the ANC. The party intended to declare the elections free and fair in spite of the enormous evidence to the contrary.

Poor administrative and logistical arrangements for the Parliamentary observer mission that left observers in their hotel rooms for a whole day during the first week, attempts to gag MPs through threats about their safety, a lack of tolerance towards differing views in the multiparty delegation and a lack of a programme for the last two days of the mission has damaged the credibility of this Parliament, both nationally and internationally. The ANC has also been made to look foolish.

As Chief Whip of the ANC and leader of the mission, the hon Mr Goniwe must take responsibility for this. Thank you, Deputy Speaker. [Applause.]

        CELEBRATING WINDFALL OF EXTRA R10 BILLION IN REVENUE


                        (Member’s Statement)

Mr N M NENE (ANC): The ANC salutes the staff at the SA Revenue Service for the sterling work they are doing. They have collected R10 billion more than expected - well above target. The boost in revenue reflects the strength of the country’s economy. It also indicates the good state of our government’s finances. A higher revenue collection will increase the ability of government to deliver services, social security, to make tax cuts and generate economic growth.

When the ANC assumed power in 1994, the budget deficit was 9,4% of the gross domestic product. However, over the past ten years we have managed to bring about tax cuts that, to date, amounted to R70 billion. This means that individual South Africans have more money to spend.

The ANC urges all South Africans to pay their taxes, as this will increase the speed of delivery of services and also will enable the government to reduce the amount of taxes that individuals pay. I thank you. [Applause.]

         MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT CONVICTED OF SERIOUS OFFENCES

                        (Member’s Statement)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Deputy Speaker, all members of Parliament are regarded and addressed as “hon members”. Among us today sit a number of hon members convicted of criminal offences involving fraud or theft. Others still face criminal charges, and yet others are implicated in the scandal. Until an interrogation of the facts and the witnesses in Bathong Travel occurs, this matter will not end.

Members of Parliament are human beings susceptible to making mistakes and to giving in to temptation. None of us can pretend to be perfect. All of us must accept, however, that we will be held accountable for our activities. Those who steal public money are unfit for Parliament.

A criticism of the proportional representation system is that the party leadership has too much power. The DA wants the leaders of parties to use that power to remove from Parliament those convicted of serious offences involving dishonesty with public money. [Applause.]

       EDUCATORS LEAVING TEACHING PROFESSION IN LARGE NUMBERS


                        (Member’s Statement)

Mr A M MPONTSHANE (IFP): Hon Deputy Speaker, recently the Education Labour Relations Council commissioned a study on indications that educators were leaving the profession in large numbers due to low morale, job threats and HIV/Aids. Accordingly, this study was conducted and made startling findings.

The study found that skilled educators, especially those trained in English, mathematics, science and accountancy had resigned and that two- thirds of educators were considering leaving the profession. These educators are in scarce fields such as technology, the natural sciences, economics and management.

Also alarming in the finding was the high levels of HIV prevalence amongst African educators. Dr Sishana, the principal investigator, said the following:

African educators were most likely to be HIV-positive compared with other groups. They were also most likely to be part of the low economic status and more likely to be placed in rural areas without their families.

The study also found that there was a major difficulty in implementing new policies. It is therefore imperative that the department finds a way to implement the policies so that we deal urgently with problems such as the high attrition rate, teacher absenteeism, drug abuse and the issue of discipline in schools. I thank you.

                   SUPPORT FOR OPERATION TIMBUKTU


                        (Member’s Statement)

Mr C T FROLICK (ANC): Madam Deputy Speaker, the ANC welcomes the Nepad initiative to build a library in Timbuktu, to house thousands of ancient manuscripts that were used in the teaching of mathematics, science, history, medicine, astronomy, religion, law and other subjects.

Some of these manuscripts date back to the 13th century. The initiative known as Operation Timbuktu is the first of its kind to be undertaken by Nepad. We hope that this project will encourage research in the neglected aspect of Africa’s contribution to the treasure house of knowledge.

The South African involvement in the project stems from two fronts. The first is to build partnerships with other African countries, and the second one stems from the visit of President Mbeki to Mali in 2001 and the commitment he made to assist the government of Mali to preserve those manuscripts.

On Friday, 8 April 2005, a dinner will be held in Cape Town to raise funds for the project. The ANC urges all MPs and other members of the business community to support this worthy cause. I thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The ANC? You have another slot created by the PAC. You are not using it.

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Deputy Speaker, you offered the ANC an extra chance. They declined it. Shouldn’t you then come to the DA to ask us for a chance?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I am going to allow the DA to take the slot.

              MORATORIUM PLACED ON HUNTING OF PREDATORS

                        (Member’s Statement)

MR G R MORGAN: Madam Speaker, the DA welcomes the moratorium placed by the Department of Environmental Affairs on its plans to allow for the hunting of an extra 75 leopards each year.

In December 2004 the DA called on Minister Van Schalkwyk to grant a moratorium on this extension, arguing that the submission was based on fuzzy science. We are happy to say that our view was vindicated.

At the heart of this issue is an admission by the department that provincial conservation authorities lack capacity to provide reliable information on animal populations. The DA hopes the Minister would take cognisance of this reality, now that the draft standards on the sustainable use of large predators are being finalised.

Amongst other things, these policies intend to put an end to canned lion hunting. This is to be welcomed if it can be believed. On the face of it, the policy says all the right things, but in substance it remains too vague and relies too heavily on the enforcement capabilities of the very provincial authorities that are already regarded as lacking in capacity. Unless the policy is made tighter, leaving less room for interpretation by provincial authorities of when a captive-bred predator can be hunted, this policy could succeed in actually legalising canned hunting. The DA hopes the Minister will heed this warning. [Applause.]

                        MINISTERS’ RESPONSES


                  THE STATE OF SPORT IN THE COUNTRY


                        (Minister’s Response)

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy Speaker, I have two responses from our cluster.

The continuous and misleading, sometimes inflammatory, statements that are made by the hon Donald Lee about sports in this country should not deter us as the ANC from the course of transformation that we have set for this country. Therefore, I would want to call on sports administrators, including the Minister that they should not listen to hon Donald Lee.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: The hon Minister is supposedly replying to members’ statements. Instead, he is trying to reply to the notice of motion which the hon Mr Lee gave. That debate is still to take place, presumably next week.

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Gibson, sit down.

I therefore call on all sport administrators not to heed the call from Donald Lee. You should not listen to him; he is misleading you.

That is my first response. I now go on to the second one . . . [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, will you please respond to the 14 Members’ Statements raised in the House?

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: I am on the second response, hon Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Will you now respond to your first statement, hon Minister?

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: I am finished with the first response, and I am now on the second one.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Well, there was actually no such statement, hon Minister. Would you now respond to your first statement?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: I submit that the hon Minister is in contempt of the Chair for instead of abiding by the rulings of the Chair, he carries on and presses onwards and then has the effrontery to tell me to sit down when I have already sat down. I don’t take instructions from that hon Minister, now or ever! I don’t take them from him!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The only part on which I agree with you is that when he asked you to sit down you were already seated. But he did discontinue with a statement that was not made in the House today.

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Madam Deputy Speaker, I am not in contempt of the House because you gave me the chance to speak, and I will continue speaking when you say I should speak.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, will you please respond to statements?

             NEGLIGENT BEHAVIOUR OF MEMBERS OF THE SAPS


                        (Minister’s Response)

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: With regard to the second response, ubab’a uVelapi spoke about the working conditions of police which are quite tough out there and I do agree with you. You also spoke about the negligence that has happened in a particular case. We will pass this on to the Minister of Safety and Security, who is in our cluster.

We do acknowledge as the ANC that rape is a very serious offence. We definitely will pass this on to the Minister to do something to address this particular case. We also wish to express our condolences to the family of the baby girl who died as a result of that crime. Thank you very much.

                   TRANSFORMATION OF THE JUDICIARY





                        (Minister’s Response)

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to respond, firstly, to the statement on the transformation of the judiciary. And I begin by saying that any individual who chooses to ignore the fact that South Africa must address judicial transformation suffers from self-imposed amnesia or myopia. [Laughter.]

The judiciary in South Africa is in need of transformation. Eminent jurists in our country and internationally agree on this. The independence outlined in the Constitution is supported by this government, as is the important imperative of achieving the transformation of the judiciary. [Interjections.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: The Rules are quite clear that Ministers may reply on behalf of a member of their cluster, but not across cluster lines. And the hon Minister of Education is now talking on a particular matter that is not within her cluster.

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Deputy Speaker, as far as I recall - and I’m not interfering with your right to rule - I wasn’t aware that the hon Ellis was a member of Cabinet and therefore aware of the composition of its committees. [Applause.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Deputy Speaker, I don’t have to be a member of Cabinet to know what the Rules of Parliament are.

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Deputy Speaker, the Constitution obliges government and this Parliament to ensure judicial independence and the practical realisation of transformation, which includes representivity, the achievement of court procedures that recognise and promote diversity and empowerment programmes that provide support to the judiciary in achieving these objectives. [Interjections.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: The Rules are quite clear. We have indicated to the hon Minister what the Rules are and yet you allow her to continue with the statement that is not within her ambit to make.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I think the Minister understands the Rules. And I think, as I am seated here, I do understand the Rules. If the cluster on whose behalf the Minister is responding has confidence that she will respond the way she does, we leave it to that cluster.

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Deputy Speaker, there are Rules of Parliament in . . . [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I can’t pronounce myself on Rules of the executive because I am not responsible for the clusters in the executive. If the hon member is giving the nation and this House information we don’t have, we can’t stop her from doing that.

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Deputy Speaker, we all know the Rules of Parliament that the Minister is talking across cluster lines, and she is wrong to do so.

                       SPONSORED STUDY BY ELRC


                        (Minister’s Response)

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Deputy Speaker, I am a member of the Justice, Peace and Security Committee of the Cabinet committees, and on that basis these matters come before us. [Applause.] I would like now, with your permission and that of the hon Ellis, to respond to the comment on the Education Labour Relations Council’s sponsored study. [Interjections.] I am so glad to have your permission hon member, although it is quite irrelevant. [Laughter.]

The study raises a number of serious matters with respect to the education profession. But, I think it’s very important that we actually read the report because it is couched in terms of a number or phraseology that is not in the deterministic manner suggested by the hon member. We don’t have such large numbers leaving the profession. There is an indication that of the 17 000 respondents, a significant proportion indicated they have thought of leaving, are leaving and some indeed have left the profession, but not the entire group sampled by the council.

So, certainly we know that we are concerned about the numbers that leave the profession, and I have already announced in this House steps that we would want to take to retain skills within the profession.

Of most concern should be the finding with respect to the levels of prevalence of the HIV/Aids among educators. More concerning is the part of report which indicates that a number of educators do not seem to be fully educated or alert to how the disease is transmitted. And for our professionals, who are educated persons, not to have this information raises a very serious concern as to how they would communicate education programmes on HIV/Aids to young people in our schools.

Therefore, I believe this is an aspect that we certainly must attend to.

However, we are addressing the matter of the retention of scarce skills, the need to increase the production of educators, certainly in the science, technology and mathematics domains. And, of course, we could only do that once we produce sufficient numbers of young people at the matriculation level who are competent in the subjects of Mathematics and Science. So, all of these are certainly areas we would address.

On the matter of drug abuse, this is of course a serious concern that I believe all of us must address. No one department is responsible for this.

The matter of discipline among our youth and the ability of educators to discipline young people without using physical violence is an important area that we should address. However, to say because I am deployed to a rural area, I have to engage in multiple sexual partner practices and therefore expose myself to the danger of HIV/Aids is a very difficult area for a Minister or any official working in the department to address.

Essentially, we should be informed about what actually leads to us becoming infected and how do we prevent ourselves from achieving the status of HIV positive. I think that is at the heart of the challenge that we face: how do we prevent further infections and how does each one of us become educated on ensuring that we protect ourselves and reduce the blight of this pandemic? [Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Just for the sake of the House I want to point out that the questions clusters and the statements clusters are two different things. The information we have is that the Minister was very much in order. Even the Table staff has confirmed what the Chair said in this regard. I really apologise for the noise that was levelled at you when you were responding, hon Minister. Are there any other Ministerial responses?

Mr T D LEE: What about Zim? Who is the Zim cluster?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Don’t say “damn cluster”, hon member. Will you please withdraw that, hon member? [Interjections.]

Mr T D LEE: Madam Speaker, I spoke about the Zim cluster. I never used the word, “damn”.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You did.

Mr T D LEE: No, I did not, Madam Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: We will check the Hansard. I am very close to you. You mentioned: Who is responding on the Zim? And then you said: “Who is in that damn cluster?” [Interjections.] We will get the Hansard and make a ruling there.

Mr L J MODISENYANE: Hon Deputy Speaker, will the hon member please withdraw and apologise to this House, because he was misleading this House.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Are you referring to Mr Ellis? Mr Ellis was wrong and he knew that he was wrong. We corrected him and I think let us leave the matter there, hon members. I don’t think that we need to lower the standard of the House. At times, we are not informed about the points we raise. If Mr Ellis knew that the questions clusters and the statements clusters . . .

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: What about Minister Balfour? He should be apologising.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I am addressing the issue addressed to the Chair now. I am not going to attend to any howling. I am addressing what I should address at this stage. I am saying to you, hon member: A point was raised and I made a correction in the House. In future, let us make sure that before we ask or rise on points of order, that we are informed. Let us leave the matter at that point. If there is any other point that members would like to make, they should have done so. I now recognise Deputy Speaker Botha, I mean “Deputy Minister Botha”.

                  MANUSCRIPT COLLECTION IN TIMBUKTU


                        (Minister’s Response)

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you for the honour, Deputy Speaker. I just want to respond to one question about the Timbuktu manuscripts. When I was growing up I heard of a place called Timbuktu. It was like a nonexistent place far away, far-flung, where no people lived. You’d be banished to this place. At least that is what the colonisers taught us but as a way of concealing and stigmatising our rich African heritage.

Today we know that these manuscripts found in Timbuktu are actually about science, physical science, maths, astronomy, philosophy and so on. We know that Africa has a rich heritage on these issues. The colonisers wanted to portray themselves as the people who actually brought civilisation from outside to Africa.

We are already involved in the project and we have already started to train people from Mali to learn how to preserve and conserve those manuscripts for the benefit of posterity of all, but also for the benefit of Africa and of the world. The project is a South Africa-Mali project, which was adopted by our President. It has also now been adopted as a Nepad project. We would appreciate any support that we could get from all South Africans. [Applause.]

Business concluded.

The House adjourned at 14:45.