TUESDAY, 31 MAY 2005 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

                                ____

The House met at 14:02.

Acting Speaker Mr N P Nhleko took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or mediation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr N P Nhleko): Please be seated. Order! Order! Hon members. Does any member wish to give a notice of motion?

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Mrs D VAN DER WALT: I hereby give notice on behalf of the DA that I shall move:

That this House -

 1) discusses the growing crisis in the care of the elderly due to the
    failure of the Department of Social Development to pay subsidies to
    organisations in institutions caring for the aged and the failure
    by the government to review the subsidy amount allocated for the
    care of the aged in light of inflation.

[Applause.]

                      TIME ALLOCATED TO PARTIES


                         (Draft Resolution)

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: I move without notice:

That notwithstanding Rule 106(5), time allocated for party responses to
the Minister’s statement today will be as follows:

   ANC: five minutes; DA: three minutes; IFP: two minutes; and all
   other: parties one minute each.

Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, I am sorry to be difficult but in fairness, I think, to all parties and certainly to the DA, we received notification earlier today - probably at 10:30 or 11:00 - that the DA had 5 minutes and I don’t think it is right that the time should summarily be changed now, sir. I would request that we have our 5 minutes as planned.

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr N P Nhleko): Order! Hon members, I would suggest that the Whips try and sort out that issue. Are you objecting to the time allocated or to . . .?

Mr M J ELLIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, we are. We would prefer that we go back to the original suggestion which was, I think, the ANC, eight minutes; the DA, five minutes; the IFP, four minutes; and other parties, one minute each.

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr N P Nhleko): Order! Hon members I’ll give some time for Whips to be able to sort out that issue amongst themselves. Thank you. We will probably come back to that motion.

Decision of question postponed.

                  QUESTIONS NOT TO HAVE PRECEDENCE


                         (Draft Resolution)

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: I move without notice:

That notwithstanding the provisions of Rules 29(8) and 113(1), Questions shall not have precedence tomorrow, the 1 June 2005.

Agreed to.

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr N P Nhleko): Order! Hon members, we will now proceed to the statement by the Minister of Correctional Services. We also appeal to the Whips in the meantime, whilst the Minister is dealing with the statement, to sort out the question of the time allocation, please. Thank you. [Applause.]

        SPECIAL REMISSION OF SENTENCE FOR SENTENCED OFFENDERS

                             (Statement)

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, hon members, allow me to quote from the book of John, Chapter 8. I am a little bit shy to do this because my theology teacher is sitting over there:

They brought a woman unto him and they said to him: Teacher this woman was caught sinning. Then those who had been convicted by their conscience went out one by one beginning with the oldest even to the last and Jesus was left alone and the woman was standing in the midst. When Jesus had raised himself up and saw no one but the woman, he said to her: Woman where are those accusers of yours. Has no one condemned you? She said: No one Lord and Jesus said to her. Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more. [Applause.]

Hamba ungabuye wone. [Go and sin no more.] While delivering my Budget Vote address in this House on 13 April, I gave notice that an announcement would be made in due course that would impact positively on corrections and related matters in the correctional environment.

On Freedom Day, I stated that serious consideration was being given to granting a special remission of sentence to sentenced offenders. This is a power derived from section 84(2)(j) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, Act 108 of 1996, through which the President may pardon or reprieve offenders and remit any fines, penalties and forfeitures. This power was last exercised on 18 July 1998.

With the White Paper on Corrections in South Africa having been adopted by Cabinet earlier this year, a new policy direction in the correctional system now places the emphasis on correcting offending behaviour and development and care with the objective of ensuring the rehabilitation of offenders and ultimate re-integration of these offenders into communities. It’s a policy direction that we believe will contribute to the dual aims of reducing incidents of repeat offending and fighting crime in our communities.

Offenders must accept responsibility for their actions. They must acknowledge their wrongdoings and work with those in the correctional system to positively change their lives. This can never be achieved where the correctional system is punitive or vengeful. I want to repeat this. This kind of approach can never be achieved where the correctional system is punitive or vengeful. It must be a system where the focus is on corrections, if we want to succeed in convincing offenders that crime is totally unacceptable.

This proposed remission of sentence for offenders is in line therefore with our policy of correcting offending behaviour and development. It is directed at those who display a willingness to change. It’s not government being soft on crime. On the contrary our intolerance of crime is reflected in the fact that anyone who presents a danger to society will not be released under the terms of this envisaged remission of sentence.

In considering a general and conditional reprieve of sentence for sentenced offenders, probationers and parolees, a number of factors were considered. These included: One, the powers and functions as outlined in our Constitution with regard to pardoning or reprieving offenders; two, the granting of remission of sentence to offenders is an international practice that’s exercised in most democracies; three, the adoption of the White Paper on Corrections in South Africa; four, entering our second decade of democracy with the objective of building on and strengthening the achievements of our first years of democracy; five, a continued zero tolerance towards aggressive, firearm related, sexual and drug-related crimes; six, public interest and concern and the integrity of the justice system; seven, the safety and security of the public; eight, the interests of victims of crime; and lastly, repeat offending by those who gain from this remission of sentence.

Hon members, it’s never easy when a decision of this kind is taken. It probably would have been easier to avoid giving consideration to a remission of sentence. It would be very easy to just run away from it and not face it square on, but that would be an avoidance of our responsibilities as a responsible government. At times decisions might be taken that are perceived to be against the best interest of the public. In this instance, I sincerely do not believe this to be the case. This decision has been taken after careful consideration and much, much soul searching as regards the current situation that prevails in our correctional centres.

If we want to be seen to be fighting crime effectively, correcting offending behaviour and ensuring the rehabilitation of offenders, then our actions must be such that those in our correctional centres would want to adopt a life-changing attitude for themselves. Through granting this remission of sentence - ingqawuza or inyawuza as hon Trevor Manuel calls it. He calls it inyawuza. Its called ingqawuza or ingqawule. Mr Mlangeni would know it very well. Through granting this remission of sentence we are sending a message to all offenders that society is prepared to give them a second chance despite their behaviour. We are saying to offenders that in our second decade of democracy they can play a positive role and that as a society we are giving them that chance. To the offenders who stand to be released once the remission of sentences is implemented a very, very strong warning to you: Do not construe this as government or society being soft on crime. We abhor the crimes that you commit. While we do not reject or condemn you as human beings, we reject your behaviour and your crimes and would not hesitate to again incarcerate you and others who believe that you can continue with lives of crime with impunity.

As Jesus said to the woman in Chapter 8, we also do not condemn you. All we are saying: Go and sin no more. Go and commit no other crimes in your lives. Together with other agencies in the criminal justice system we will remain vigilant to your behaviour and we will not hesitate to go after you if you spurn this second chance that society is granting you.

I want to assure the public at large, our families, and the whole community of South Africa that the prison doors will not be suddenly opened and allow offenders to flood our communities. We are taking every measure possible to ensure that the release of qualifying offenders will be controlled, will be manageable and will be   co-ordinated. My teams in correctional services are standing by all over the country waiting for the announcement to be made tomorrow morning – an announcement that will release some of these offenders.

No offender who committed aggressive crimes against human beings, firearm related, murder, sexual or drug-related crimes will be released. None of those offenders will be released. [Applause.] No offenders who are a risk to society will be released. Every offender who qualifies for release will have to attend pre-release programmes. These programmes will involve the participation of community organisations and families to ensure that adequate support systems are in place. We have spoken to all the stakeholders, the NGOs who work with us, the churches and the faith-based organisations to assist us with this release.

In considering remissions, priority will also be given to qualifying children. There are children, hon members, in our prisons. Some of those children will qualify tomorrow to go home. There are young people, juveniles, in our centres. Some of them will qualify to go home tomorrow. There are females who are in prison; women with children, with babies – some of them will also qualify to go home, depending on their sentences. [Applause.] There are elderly people: 70-year olds and 63-year olds who are in our centres. Some of those elderly people with disabilities will also qualify to go home. There are people with chronic illnesses in our centres. Minister of Health, some of those will, on medical grounds, be released to go home.

Certain identified crime categories will be excluded, as I have said, as there are certain crimes that we will not touch at all. Sentenced offenders facing further charges will also not be released. I will be announcing the operational details of this remission of sentences tomorrow. And if you have noticed what I have said in the categories, awaiting-trial detainees who have not been sentenced by the courts will not be touched by this remission. They still have to await their chance to go through the courts.

Tomorrow morning at 07:30, I’ll be announcing this at Pollsmoor female prison, from which some of those women will be walking home. This would include details of the staggered release of qualifying offenders; we’ll do it over a period of 10 weeks. Families and committees will also play a vital role in ensuring that those released are reintegrated successfully. I’m under no illusion about the challenge that is facing us. While every effort is made to ensure that those that are released stay out of prison, we should not be so naïve as to believe that some of them might not reoffend. Some of them . . .

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Is the hon member prepared to take a question?

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Yes, I am, hon member.

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: When they leave tomorrow, will they continue to do physical exercise? [Laughter.]

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: They will be walking Vuka South Africa; they will be led by the Minister to do exercises. So, we are not so naïve as to believe that they will not commit any offences. If they do commit offences, then the law should take its normal course. It will mean that they have rejected the overtures of a humane society, and they will deserve nothing less than to be put back in prison.

I therefore want to appeal to you as hon members, to the public at large, and especially to business, to reach out to those who have been released and to assist them in acquiring gainful employment that could contribute towards them turning their backs on crime for the rest of their lives.

Ndenza ke eso simemezo kwiintsapho zonke ezinabantu ebebekade bengaphakathi ezitrongweni zethu ukuba zibamkele bafumane imisebenzi. Singabathyaleli ekwenzeni izinto ezingalunganga. Ndiyacela nakosomashoshini abakhulu ukuba nabo babamkele ngokubanika imisetyenzana emincinci ukwenzela ukuba basebenze. (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)

[I am making an appeal to all the families who have family members in our prisons to welcome them back and to help them get jobs. We must not drive them to do the wrong things. I am also asking big businessmen to welcome them by giving them small jobs so that they can work.]

To the offenders: This is a second chance that’s being given to you by this humane society and that is being given to you by Almighty God. When you’re advised tomorrow that you qualify for remission and a possible release as an offender, please, lift up your hands and say: “You are a wonderful God!” Thank you.

                      TIME ALLOCATED TO PARTIES


                  (Decision of Question on Motion)

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr N P Nhleko): Hon members, we have to go back to the motion without notice that was moved in the name of the Chief Whip. Party Whips have been consulting amongst themselves; therefore the question is whether there are objections to the motion as read out by the hon Deputy Chief Whip. Are there any objections to the motion being adopted?

Motion agreed to.

               PARTY RESPONSES TO MINISTER’S STATEMENT

Mr J SELFE: Chairperson, it is a fact that the majority of South African prisons are extremely overcrowded. Under these circumstances it is small wonder that gangs thrive and that very little rehabilitation occurs. It is clear that the problem of overcrowding must be tackled; but it is equally clear that this must happen in a way that does not undermine the deterrent effect of imprisonment, nor must it endanger society.

The Ministry of Correctional Services, today, proposes reducing the sentences of several categories of what he describes as minor offenders, so as to achieve this aim. The Minister’s proposal is, with respect, well intentioned, but misdirected. Any across the board reduction of sentences undermines the criminal justice system. One has to assume that people are serving time in prison because a judge or magistrate applied his or her mind to an appropriate sentence, after considering the seriousness of the crime, the history of previous convictions and the interests of society. Remission of sentences undermines the deterrent effect of imprisonment, it trivialises the sentences of courts and it is a slap in the face of the many hundreds of thousands of victims of crime in South Africa.

A much more significant contributor to overcrowding in our prisons, is the huge number of awaiting-trial detainees. There are currently about 51 000 of them in our prisons, constituting about 30% of our prison population and costing the taxpayer a staggering R5,8 million every day. So, we must reduce this burden.

Solving the problem has preoccupied several interministerial committees for a very long time without any discernible result. Has the Minister no influence on this process; has he not been able to persuade his colleagues to deal with the awaiting-trial detainees? Because, what we are in effect doing is releasing convicted prisoners to make room for awaiting-trial prisoners; that is the real issue at stake.

Finally, the Department of Correctional Services must develop a coherent and logical release policy that would reward those inmates that have successfully rehabilitated themselves. The DCS has correctly placed rehabilitation at the centre of its activities. A release policy that simply reduces sentences arbitrarily for some categories of inmates, while excluding others simply because of the crimes for which they have originally been convicted, undermines the basis of rehabilitation, which is that each inmate must be individually assessed to determine whether he or she has corrected his or her offending behaviour, has been rehabilitated and is ready to be reintegrated into society. I thank you.

Mrs S A SEATON: Chairperson, hon members, whilst one understands that the President has the authority, in terms of the Constitution, to grant such special remissions, and one understands the Minister’s need to see to it that these prisons are emptied a little – because we all know that they are vastly overcrowded – it does raise some concerns.

This is not the way to go about it. Whilst we accept that something has got to be done, Minister, the problem is not, as Mr Selfe said, the fact that there are prisoners who need to be released because they have been sentenced. It is the detainees or the awaiting-trial prisoners that need to be attended to.

This is a problem in the judicial services system. We have a major problem; the justice delivery system is failing and we in Correctional Services are trying to deal with it piecemeal. This is not the way to go about it.

One would hope that the people that are going to be released would accept that they have been given an opportunity to mend their ways, to prove to society that they are worthy to go back into the community. And, one would hope that the decision to let these people go would include the 384 IFP political prisoners that we have been fighting for years to have released. [Interjections.]

I would sincerely hope that if we are going to start releasing people they will not only be ANC members, but that they will be people from across the board and will include political prisoners that should have been released many years ago.

It is acceptable that we are going to do this only on the basis that we are sorting something out in the short term. We will not agree, in the long term, that releasing prisoners is the answer. Let’s get our justice delivery system sorted out and perhaps we will achieve a lot more in this country. Mr M STEPHENS: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, sentence remission is indeed a very drastic measure, and we submit that it cannot be allowed to become a permanent feature of the judicial process in South Africa.

Sentencing is a matter that is best dealt with in a court of law by the presiding officer who has heard all the evidence and who can balance the interests of society with that of the accused, and can look at them on an individual basis. If the executive starts meddling in that situation we are going to have an unfair and unjust system that does not do the process of justice any good in South Africa.

At the same time, however, we agree that incarceration is not necessarily the best way of dealing with crime; it is quite often counterproductive, especially when dealing with juveniles and also other offenders. Therefore, the problem is best dealt with by developing sentence alternatives. Incarceration is virtually the only alternative today and we need to develop, in South Africa, alternative sentencing that will give a wider variety of choice to presiding officers to decide how to deal with a particular criminal. Giving them further alternatives, we then suggest, would be a better way of dealing with this matter. I thank you. [Time expired.][Applause.]

Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, as far as the hon Minister’s quote from the Book of John is concerned, it is for the victims of crime to extend forgiveness, and for the state to wield the sword of justice in protecting its citizens from crime, as set out in Romans 13. [Interjections.]

Sentences, quite correctly, should be tempered with mercy, but once a sentence has been passed the sentence should be served. The ACDP, therefore, believes that this proposal undermines the integrity of sentences passed by the judiciary, and sends the wrong message to would-be criminals. It also ignores the rights and concerns of victims of crime.

Furthermore, we would like to know what steps the hon Minister intends taking to ensure that these prisoners do not re-offend. The department does not have the capacity to effectively supervise the hundreds of prisoners who are to be released, especially in view of the 1 100 vacancies for correctional supervision officials.

Whilst we, like Jesus, have compassion for those who are imprisoned we do not believe that the answer to prison overcrowding lies in a special remission of sentence. The solution to prison overcrowding lies in addressing the large numbers of awaiting-trial prisoners. Approximately 14 000 are in custody due to their not being able to afford bail, even as little as R50. This, we believe, is the solution to overcrowding. I thank you. [Time expired.] Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Geagte mnr die Voorsitter, die kernvraag aan die agb Minister is, word gevangenes vrygelaat om humanitêre redes of omdat die tronke oorvol is? Dis die kernvraag.

Die agb Minister sê dat hy ‘n boodskap gee aan gevangenes en dat hul ‘n tweede kans het ten spyte van hul optredes. Die vraag is egter: Wat is die boodskap aan wetsgehoorsame burgers? Die boodskap aan wetsgehoorsame burgers is egter dat die strafregstelsel ondermyn word en dat misdadigers se regte hoër geag word as die regte van wetsgehoorsame burgers.

Vrylatings van gevangenes dien nie die belange van slagoffers van misdade nie. Die stelsel het al bewys dat misdadigers met ernstige oortredings, soos moord, deur die stelsel vrygelaat is, en weer moord gepleeg het.

Ek wil vir u sê dat vrylatings ook ‘n belediging is vir die slagoffers van misdaad, en die agb Minister sal dit weer ‘n keer moet opweeg vóór hy mense weer eens vrylaat. Dankie, Voorsitter. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, the crucial question to the hon Minister is: Are prisoners being released on humanitarian grounds or because the prisons are overcrowded? That is the crucial question.

The hon Minister says that he is delivering a message to prisoners and that they have a second chance in spite of their actions. The question is, however: What is the message to law-abiding citizens? The message to law- abiding citizens is, however, that the criminal justice system is being undermined and that the rights of criminals are considered to be superior to the rights of law-abiding citizens.

Releasing prisoners does not serve the interests of victims of crime. The system has proved that criminals who have committed serious offences, like murder, have been released by the system, and have committed murder again.

I want to tell you that releasing prisoners adds insult to injury for the victims of crime, and the hon Minister must think twice before releasing people again. Thank you, Chairperson.]

Mr I S MFUNDISI: Chairperson and hon members, we in the UCDP support the remission of sentence for some sentenced offenders, but advise that it has to be done with the greatest circumspection.

We believe that the justice cluster of our government should reconsider some legislation that has usurped the duties and functions of the judiciary by prescribing minimum sentences without leaving it to the judiciary to use their discretion, depending on the merits of the case.

We propose that consideration for remission be given to those who are incapacitated and whose sickness may affect others due to overcrowding, those beyond the ages of 60 and 70, and women who have babies in prison and are sentenced for minor offences.

We strongly advocate, though, that, in keeping with the law, those serving life sentences who are in good health should not be considered for remission until they have served at least 25 years of their sentence.

Finally, we accept the gradual release of deserving inmates and concur that to err is human, but to forgive divine. Let those being so released show that they are men and women of substance who will countenance no wrongdoing on their release. I thank you.

Mr N T GODI: Thank you, Chairperson. Comrade Minister, we want to indicate the PAC’s support for this programme to release certain categories of prisoners. We believe that there should be a shift, a mind-shift, in our attitudes towards dealing with offenders that seeks to change the behaviour rather than to be retributive.

We, however, want to bring to the Minister’s attention, sir, that there are some of our members who have appeared before the TRC, and who were not given amnesty. We’ve made representations to the Department of Justice and more than two years later we have not received any response, and it’s quite heartbreaking for us to get reports about them being assaulted by common- law prisoners; some of them are not in the best of health. We think that these are some of the issues that may need to be looked into in due course. Thank you.

Ms S RAJBALLY: Thank you, Chairperson. Crime is one of the most serious problems that faces South Africa and our overcrowded prisons are a testimony to that. The MF has no objection to petty criminals receiving lesser sentences, or serving sentences that impose community service as an alternative to imprisonment.

Also, the same should apply to all rehabilitated offenders. Rehabilitated offenders must be assessed individually before remission, as this would serve to reduce the number of prisoners in the prisons.

The MF also strongly objects to the mixture of minor crime offenders, juvenile delinquents and major crime offenders. We seek a separation of the three because that is the reason for much more major crime, such as rape, robbery, homicide and murder. Thank you very much.

Mnr D V BLOEM: Voorsitter, die Minister het gepraat uit die Bybel uit; wel, ek gaan praat uit die Vryheidshandves uit en nie uit die Bybel nie. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Ek lees, almal sal gelyk voor die reg gelyk wees. Gevangenisstraf sal slegs vir ernstige misdade teen die mense gegee word, en sal gerig wees op heropvoeding en nie op wraak nie. Dit is presies wat vandag gebeur. Ons het nie wraak teen die mense wat foute gemaak het nie; ons sê vir dié mense, “Julle het ‘n tweede kans, ons gee julle ‘n tweede kans. Ons haat julle nie. Wat julle verkeerd gedoen het, ons vergewe julle.”

Maar dis ook die plig van almal wat hier sit om hul harte oop te maak, hul arms oop te maak, en vir dié mense te sê, “Kom terug, jy’t fout gemaak, maar ons vergewe jou vir die fout wat jy gemaak het.” Sien, daar is predikante wat in dié Huis sit, wat elke Sondag preek vir die mense om vergifnis, maar wat nie vergifnis in hul hart het nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] [Applouse.] Mnr Truman Prince is ver weg, nou. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Ons praat van politieke gevangenes: Ek het vir die PAC en die IVP gesê om dié politieke gevangenes vir my te wys. En tot nou toe het hulle nie vir my die mense gewys nie. Ek weet nie waar die politieke gevangenes is wat vrygelaat moet word nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, the Minister quoted from the Bible. Well, I am going to quote from the Freedom Charter and not the Bible. [Interjections.]

I read: All shall be equal before the law. Imprisonment shall only be for serious crimes, and shall aim at re-education, and not vengeance. This is exactly what happens today. We do not take revenge against people who have made mistakes; we say to those people: “You have a second chance, we are giving you a second chance. We do not hate you. Whatever you have done wrong, we forgive you.”

But it is also the duty of everyone sitting here to open their hearts, to open their arms, and say to these people: “ Come back, you have made a mistake, but we forgive you for the mistake you have made.”

You see, there are clergymen sitting in this House who preach to the people about forgiveness every Sunday, but who do not have forgiveness in their heart. [Interjections.] [Applause.] Mr Truman Prince is far away now. [Interjections.]

We speak about political prisoners: I have told the PAC and the IFP to show me these political prisoners up to now they have not shown me these people. I do not know where the political prisoners are who must be released. [Interjections.]]

Mrs S A SEATON: On a point of order, Chairperson: The hon Bloem is not aware, perhaps, that one writes to the Minister and to the President and to people like that when one is trying to get these sentences removed. [Interjections.]

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr N P Nhleko): That is not a point of order.

Mnr D V BLOEM: Minister, ons wil sê, van die ANC se kant af, dat ons u heeltemal ondersteun. U moet die boodskap oordra aan die President dat hierdie regering ‘n regering is wat mense vergewe. Daar’s kinders wat in die tronke sit, wat gesteel het omdat hulle honger het. Daar is mammas met hul babas wat daar binne sit wat nie met ’n doel voor oë verkeerd gedoen het nie. Ons steun dié beweging.

Ons weet, Minister, dat die opposisie . . . . u weet, dit is die rede waarom daar ‘n opposisie is, want enige ding wat die regerende party sal sê, moet hulle teëgaan, al is dit ‘n goeie ding. Maar, hulle sal dit doen, al is dit wat. In die komitee stem hulle saam, hulle stem heeltemal saam, en nou “overcrowding”, en “overcrowding”, en “overcrowding” hulle net die heel tyd. Maar julle sien, as hulle . . [Tussenwerpsels.]

Dr C P MULDER: Mnr die Voorsitter, sal die agb lid so vriendelik wees om ‘n maklike vraag te neem?

Mnr D V BLOEM: Ja, vra maar, ek is nie bang nie, ek het hare op my kop; ek is sterk. Vra maar. [Gelag.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.) [Mr D V BLOEM: Minister, we want to say, from the side of the ANC, that we support you wholeheartedly. You must convey the message to the President that this government is a government that forgives people. There are children sitting in prison who stole because they were hungry. There are mothers with their babies sitting inside who did not do something wrong on purpose. We support this movement.

We know, Minister, that the opposition… you know that that is the reason why there is an opposition, because they must oppose everything the ruling party says, even if it is a good thing. But they will do it, whatever it may be. In the committee they agree, they agree wholeheartedly, and now they are simply “overcrowding”, and “overcrowding” and “overcrowding” all the time. But you see, if they . . . [Interjections.]

Dr C P MULDER: Mr Chairperson, would the hon member be so kind as to take an easy question?

Mr D V BLOEM: Yes, ask away, I am not afraid, I have hair on my head; I am strong. Ask away. [Laughter.]]

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr N P Nhleko): Hon members, let’s try and avoid a direct exchange across the floor. You would like to put a question to the hon member at the podium? Hon Bloem, would you like to take the question?

Mnr D V BLOEM: Ja, ek stem saam, Voorsitter, maar net ‘n kort ene en nie ‘n lang ene nie. [Gelag.]

Dr C P MULDER: Agb Voorsitter, dit klink vir my dat die regering sy hele argument baseer op vergifnis, en nou’s dit vir my vreemd dat net party mense vergewe word en ander nie. Die vraag wat ek vir hom wil vra, is: U het so pas vir die IVP gesê dat u nie bewus is van politieke gevangenes nie; kan ek daarvan verstaan dat, indien partye soos die VF Plus vir u name gee van mense wat in die tronk sit vanweë politieke dade, hulle ook sal kwalifiseer vir dié kwytskelding? Dankie.

Mnr D V BLOEM: Die antwoord is: Kom ons gesels daar in die teekamer oor dié storie, want ek besoek altyd gevangenes en ek sê vir u dat ek nog nooit teëgekom het dat iemand vir my sê hy’s ‘n politieke gevangene nie. Nie een mens nie. Elke week is ek in ‘n ander gevangenis - 241 gevangenisse in totaal - en nie een mens het al vir my gesê, “Ek is ‘n politieke gevangene”, nie.

Lede in dié Huis, aan die linkerkant, het almal politieke gevangenes en ek weet nie waar dié politieke gevangenes vandaankom nie, want die ANC het politieke gevangenes. Ek weet nie waar dié ander vandaankom nie. Maar u is welkom om met my te kom praat hieroor.

Minister, ek was besig om vir u te sê oor die oorbevolking en die verhoorafwagtendes, die “awaiting-trialists” en dat ons weet daarvan. U besoek elke dag gevangenisse. Dit is nie iets nuut wat u nou hoor nie.

Maar, daar is stappe en tyd én metodes hoe dié probleem aangespreek kan word. Dié is ‘n spesifieke punt wat ons bespreek. En die punt van verhoorafwagtendes, ons sal daarby uitkom. Baie dankie. [Tyd verstreke.][Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr D V BLOEM: Yes, I agree, Chairperson, but only a short one and not a long one. [Laughter.]

Dr C P MULDER: Hon Chairperson, it sounds to me as if the government bases its whole argument on forgiveness, and to me it seems strange that only certain people are being forgiven and others are not. The question I want to ask him is: You have just told the IFP that you are not aware of political prisoners; is it right for me to assume that this means that if parties such as the FF Plus give you names of people who are in prison because of political activities, they would also qualify for this remission of sentence? Thank you.

Mr D V BLOEM: The answer is: Let us discuss this issue there in the tearoom, because I always visit prisoners and I am telling you that I have never come across anybody who has told me he is a political prisoner. Not a single person. I am in a different prison every week – 241 prisons in total – and not one person has yet told me: “I am a political prisoner”.

Members in this House, on the left hand side, all have political prisoners and I do not know where these political prisoners come from, because the ANC has political prisoners. I do not know where these others come from. But you are welcome to come and discuss this with me.

Minister, I was telling you about the overcrowding and the awaiting-trial prisoners, and that we are aware of it. You visit prisons every day. This is not something new you hear about now.

But there are steps and time and methods of addressing this problem. This is a specific point that we are discussing. And as far as the question of awaiting-trial prisoners is concerned, we will get to that. Thank you very much. [Time expired.] [Applause.]]

Party responses concluded.

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr N P Nhleko): Hon members, the PAC alleges that I was not looking in their direction. I thus now want to recognise the PAC. We will take their motion without notice before we proceed.

                        MOTION OF CONDOLENCE


                      (The late Mr V N Nkumane)

Mr N T GODI: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That this House –

(1) notes with regret and sorrow the passing away of Visindlu Nelson Nkumane on 24 May 2005 in Johannesburg;

(2) appreciates Nkumane’s immense contribution in the struggle for a free, democratic, non-racial and prosperous South Africa;

(3) recalls that he was sentenced to twelve years on Robben Island in 1963 as part of the “Daveyton Eight”, who included Comrades Johnson Mlambo and Ngila Muendane amongst others;

(4) notes that he served in the NEC and NWC of the PAC as Secretary for Education and later as Finance Secretary;

(5) celebrates his life and contributions as a researcher, a writer, a teacher, a poet, a musician and an artist; and

(6) wishes his soul to rest in peace.

Izwe lethu! [Our land!]

[Applause.]

Agreed to.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL


            (Decision of Question on Votes and Schedule)

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr N P Nhleko): Hon members, I wish to thank parties for advising members of staff on which Votes they will make declarations, on which they will record their objections and on which they intend dividing. This information will greatly assist the process this afternoon. I will put each Vote and ask parties for declarations of vote as they have indicated. Members may make declarations of vote from floor microphones if they wish, after which I will put the vote for decision.

As in the past, declarations will be limited to two minutes each. The bells will be rung for five minutes for the first division on a Vote, but for only one minute for subsequent divisions.

Vote No 1 – The Presidency - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr R COETZEE: Chairperson, the DA is going to oppose the budget for the Presidency. [Interjections.] President Mbeki is remembered for saying that South Africa is a country of two nations, but the truth is that the nation has come to know two President Mbekis. On the one hand there is the man of reason, and occasionally of inclusiveness and reconciliation, but on the other there is the narrow, racial nationalist, obsessed with centralised control. [Interjections.] The budget of the Presidency serves both agendas and too often the bad one dominates the good.

But the budget of the Presidency also funds the work of the Deputy President and the Minister in the Presidency. The DA simply cannot support a budget that sustains the hopelessly compromised Deputy President, or the government’s bully-in-chief and self-proclaimed expert on liberalism, the Minister in the Presidency.

Finally, I would say to the hon Chief Whip of the ANC, after his disgraceful performance in the House last week, that if idiocy were a crime, you would be the one languishing in jail. You could spend your time profitably there reading the Constitution of the Republic, which shows that the DA is in this House by right, and not because of the magnanimity of the ANC. [Applause.]

Rev K R J MESHOE: Chairperson, while the ACDP will support this Budget Vote, we would plead with the President to make additional time to address the concerns of the people that are rioting in our streets. As he has devoted much of his time to bringing peace and reconciliation on our continent, we believe the people of South Africa deserve as much attention as other nations on the continent are getting from him.

We will indeed support the Vote. Thank you.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, the ANC supports the Budget Vote of the Presidency and takes this opportunity to salute the Presidency for its sterling leadership. We believe that the strengthening of the Presidency as a co-ordinating centre to fight poverty will enhance the implementation of the people’s contract to create work and fight poverty.

The stewardship of the Presidency of our country in ensuring peace in Africa, and the success of Nepad will bring to fruition the vision of the Freedom Charter, particularly when it says: “There shall be peace and friendship!”

Umbutho Wesizwe uluxhasa ngokupheleyo oluhlahlolwabiwo-mali lwe-ofisi kaMongameli. Lo mbutho mkhulu owalwela inkululeko yabantu bonke beli lizwe neAfrika iphela ukhahlela kuMongameli kunye neSekela lakhe ngomsebenzi omhle wokukhokela eli lizwe kakhuhle nangobuchule. Uyalibulela igalelo lokuvuswa kweAfrika ngokukhokelwa yile-ofisi kaMongameli. Uthi Nkosi sikelela iAfrika. Maluphakame uphondo lwayo. Enkosi.(Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)

[The ANC supports the Budget of the Presidency. This giant organisation which fought for the liberation of all the people of this country and the whole of Africa, salutes the President and his deputy for the good work of leading this country so well and so strategically. It salutes the office of the President for its leading role in rejuvenating Africa. It says God bless Africa. Let it fly high. Thank you.]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 2 – Parliament – put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, the debate on the Parliamentary Budget Vote was a very heated affair, and quite rightly so too, because, quite frankly, Parliament is not the well-run institution it should be, and far too often those who suffer the most as a result of the mediocre administration are in fact the MPs themselves.

Decisions on a wide range of issues, from the new travel system to the cost of meals, have been taken by officials, without any consultation or spirit of co-operation with MPs. Structures within Parliament simply do not function, despite the constant pressure from parties, and obviously here again we refer to Hansard. In addition we have to put up with our Parliamentary budget receiving no more than a qualified audit report, and we see that R169 million of our budget was not spent.

Quite frankly, the decision to take Parliament to Kliptown without proper consultation with political parties is unacceptable, while the ongoing poor handling of the Travelgate scam is also totally unacceptable.

I want to say that there is a general feeling among more and more MPs from all parties that Parliament is no longer run from the Speaker’s office, but in fact from the Secretary to Parliament’s office. Increasingly we are being told what to do and how to do it, whereas MPs should be the ones telling officials what to do and how to do it. If everything was running smoothly, maybe it would be a different story, but it isn’t.

The DA will support this Budget Vote, but we will watch with ongoing concern the growing trend that is occurring in Parliament where MPs are being ignored and officials, in fact, are setting the pace as to how we operate. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mrs S A SEATON: Chairperson, the IFP will be supporting this Budget Vote, but as we expressed on 24 May, we are really very concerned about the massive, accumulated rollover of funds at the end of this last year. We would hope that serious consideration is going to be given to prioritisation of the important issues of Parliament. We would agree that Parliament is not operating properly. We are underperforming, there is no service delivery, members are not being advised of what should be happening in this Parliament, decisions are being taken without consultation and its time that this is sorted out.

We have indicated that we believe that serious training needs to take place amongst the staff. Members of Parliament need to be specifically trained on issues of importance, and really we need to start resourcing our committees and our members adequately. We have to ensure that members can perform their duties as expected of them, and the only way we can do this is to provide adequate facilities and adequate resources, and we are hoping that the Speaker will really apply this this year, and that we will, together, be able to make this a Parliament to be proud of.

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, the ANC supports Parliament’s Budget Vote. We support the vision contained in the Freedom Charter of a South Africa that belongs to all who live in it and in which the people shall govern. We support the democratisation of the state and governance as necessary pillars in our struggle to create a united, nonracial, nonsexist, democratic, prosperous nation in which the people of our country play an active role in determining their own future and in the creation of a better life for all.

We support a democratic people’s parliament and strong institutions of participatory democracy at national, provincial and local level that allow the people to participate actively in processes of governance and to hold accountable those they have mandated to govern. It is for this reason that we support the vision and mission of Parliament to build an effective people’s parliament that is responsive to the needs of the people and that is driven by the ideal of realising a better quality of life for all the people of South Africa.

We believe that this budget starts allocating the resources necessary to realise this vision, and therefore we support it. We do not support the negative sentiments raised, as usual, by the DA. [Interjections.] They put before us a litany of complaints, but refuse to accept collective responsibility by participating in making this Parliament what we want it to be, and that is a genuine people’s parliament. Thank you. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 3 – Foreign Affairs – put.

Declarations of vote: The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OFFICIAL OPPOSITION: Chairperson, South Africa’s foreign policy has had some brilliant successes and a few critical failures. Our President’s access at the highest levels of world councils is something to be proud of. The government has devoted time and resources to interacting with other countries in promoting peace and these efforts have borne fruit in Burundi, the DRC and the Ivory Coast.

The single greatest failures of the government have been on Swaziland and Zimbabwe. In Swaziland we seem to be unable to exert a moderating influence on a young king who continues to squander his nation’s scarce resources on personal extravagance. Zimbabwe is a modern tragedy. Having brought his country to its knees, President Mugabe is finishing the job in brutal fashion by arresting 20 000 people – I know you approve of President Mugabe, but I don’t; go and get some of those prisoners out of jail and try them in court – bulldozing shacks and nationalising all land. South Africa’s happy acceptance of the flawed election and of human rights breaches there, undermines our international credibility and our own future.

South Africa’s complicity in events in Zimbabwe, will hamper our ability to attract much-needed job creating foreign investment. Despite the President being in denial, unemployment is the single greatest challenge facing South Africa. Therefore foreign policy, like any other government policy, must be focused on job creation. If we continue to remain silent on Zimbabwe, then there is every possibility that the foreign policy successes of this government will be forgotten by history in the face of such a gross and sad failure. With these reservations, we will support this Vote.

Adv Z L MADASA: Thank you, Chairperson. We support the Budget but we would like to declare as follows: International relations are not an exact science. Consequently, one’s ideological opponents are not necessarily one’s economic opponents. One’s ideological friends are not necessarily one’s economic friends.

The ACDP is concerned that when we enter into relationships like South- South, we need to check the capacity of our country to take economic advantage of these relations and assess, for example, in the case of India and South Africa, whether South Africa has the capacity at economic level to take advantage of the Indian economy and not allow the Chinese or the Indians to only have the advantage over our economy, when we cannot reciprocate and take advantage of their economies. We therefore urge that these concerns should be taken into account before we enter into the exciting realm of entering into political relationships.

Mr M T LIKOTSI: Thank you, Chairperson, I want to state that the PAC supports the Budget Vote. We want to salute the work that is being done by the department, especially in relation to the African continent and in particular in the DRC, Burundi, the Ivory Coast and also in Darfur in Sudan. We would want to see our government, within its limited means, to do more to assist the African continent to move forward. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr D J SITHOLE: Thank you, Chairperson. The ANC supports the Budget Vote and reaffirms itself on the foreign policy of South Africa, which is anchored by a programme of building a better world and a better Africa. Through constructive engagement diplomacy as opposed to meganoisy empty diplomacy advocated by others like the DA, we are indeed scoring victories, besides very few isolated incidents, in the DRC, Burundi, Somalia, Eritrea, Côte d’Ivoire and others. In these places we are now beginning to witness hope and indeed that peace will prevail. Also, we are encouraged by a report by the United Nations that has already indicated that conflicts on the continent of Africa are on the decline.

Unfortunately, there are parties whose foreign policies focus only one particular country, Zimbabwe, as is the case with the DA. Their foreign policy starts and ends with Zimbabwe and nothing else. They keep on projecting this meganoisy empty diplomacy, which is not helpful in the settlement of disputes in the world. Thank you. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 4 – Home Affairs – put.

Declarations of vote:

Prof E S CHANG: Chairperson, hon Minister of Home Affairs, many children living in child-headed households are not able to access the different government grants available to them because they do not have the relevant documentation. We therefore think that special efforts need to be undertaken by the department in order to fast-track the issuing of these documents. Hon Minister, I have confidence that you will address this issue. Thank you.

Mr H P CHAUKE: Thank you, very much, Chair. The unfortunate thing is that we were informed that there was not going to be any objection or any statement, but nevertheless, let me just put this across.

For the past year we have started to see the changes that are taking place within the Department of Home Affairs. The Department of Home Affairs has been operating for the past 10 years without senior management. Our current Minister has employed all of the senior management.

We have seen a number of campaigns that the Department has put into practice. One of the successful campaigns that the Department has started is a campaign to check people’s details, and I am not sure whether my colleague on that side will be able to understand that one. [Laughter.] People in the villages and in the townships, whose dates of birth, names and surnames were not recorded correctly by the Department of Home Affairs are going to the department, free of charge, to correct those particular details.

We have seen the mobile units going to the villages, in particular the launch of the new immigration branch, which shows the new face of the Department of Home Affairs. These are the achievements attained in less than a year. I think we need to recognise and applaud our Minister and the new Director-General who will make sure that the services are provided to our people, in particular in the rural areas.

The ANC supports the Budget Vote and wishes the Minister and Deputy Minister well. They have a conference tomorrow on child pornography. This government has banned child pornography and we really appreciate your efforts and we support you. You will make sure that this department becomes a people’s department. [Applause.] Vote agreed to.

Vote No 5 – Provincial and Local Government – put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr W P DOMAN: Chair, the Auditor-General’s recently released report reveals that the number of qualified audit reports of provincial departments has risen from 48% to 62%. The establishment of a legal framework, such as the Public Finance Management Act, to shore up finances is obviously not enough to ensure that money is not wasted owing to incapacity.

It is quite clear that the failure of most provincial departments to spend their money fruitfully is because the ANC government has pushed out experienced civil servants in provincial administrations. The findings in the Auditor-General’s report demonstrate that the ANC’s version of transformation puts ideology and racial representivity before service delivery.

Corruption and financial mismanagement are even more serious at local level. There is clearly a lack of political will on the part of the Minister and the ANC to deal decisively with corruption and inefficiency.

The ANC has appointed princes that rule seemingly above the law all over the country and not just in Beaufort West. The saga of Truman Prince, the mayor of Bitou’s R104 000 jaunt to Paris and the corruption in Kannaland, to mention a few examples, in arguably the best-run province, remind us just how corrupt this sphere of government has become. It is no wonder that there is growing unrest, often violent, in municipalities all over the country.

Dit is nie nodig vir Nasionale Intelligensie om die oorsaak te ondersoek nie. Dit is swak dienslewering deur ANC-beheerde rade wat mense daartoe dryf. Nou wil die Minister munisipale pensioenfondse deur wetgewing dwing om te amalgameer, wat verdere destabilisering gaan meebring. Die stappe wat die Minister wel doen, is om te krap waar dit nie jeuk nie en met ondeurdagte tref-en-trap-projekkonsolidering nie die nodige aandag te gee waar dit wél jeuk nie. Die endemiese korrupsie en kapasiteitsprobleme in provinsiale en plaaslike regering maak dit onmoontlik vir die DA om hierdie begrotingspos te steun. [Tussenwerpsels.] [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[It is not necessary for National Intelligence to investigate the cause. It is poor service delivery by the ANC-controlled councils that drive people to this. Now the Minister wants to force municipal pension funds to amalgamate by means of legislation, which will bring about further destabilisation.

The steps the Minister does take, amount to scratching where it is not itching and by means of ill-considered hit-and-miss project consolidations not giving the necessary attention to where it is itching. The endemic corruption and capacity problems in provincial and local government make it impossible for the DA to support this Budget Vote. [Interjections.] [Applause.]]

Mr L M GREEN: Chairperson, hon members, of late there have been several public protests from communities in Western Cape townships over housing shortages. We empathise with communities that are homeless. However, we do not believe that violent protests by homeless communities will bring about an improvement in their homelessness.

Many homeless people are in desperate need of basic services, and it is in this area that municipalities like that of Cape Town could do better with interim provisions. There is a proliferation of informal housing in big cities like Cape Town, and the Cape Town Local Authority must have a workable strategic plan to address the increasing housing needs.

For any South African family a better life for all begins with proper housing, especially during the cold South African winters. If we have such a big housing backlog and such a high unemployment figure, why is it not possible for national, provincial and local government to act collectively to provide jobs for the unemployed to build homes for the homeless?

We also note that the National Intelligence Agency has been asked to investigate the riots in South Africa, but we think that the National Intelligence Agency would be better employed in looking at the drugs scourge in South Africa, instead of looking at this particular problem. For this reason, the ACDP will object to this Budget Vote. I thank you.

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Geagte mnr die Voorsitter, dit is vir die VF Plus onaanvaarbaar dat munisipale bestuurders salarisse ontvang wat gelykstaande is aan dié van die President, en wat dikwels selfs meer is as dié van die President.

Dit is vir die VF Plus onaanvaarbaar dat munisipale bestuurders van kleiner dorpe selfs ’n salaris ontvang wat meer is as dié van die agb Minister op nasionale vlak. Hulle verantwoordelikhede is nie so groot dat hulle daardie salarisse kan verdien nie.

Dit is ook nie aanvaarbaar vir die VF Plus dat die agb Minister kom en wanneer dit hom pas, dan sê hy maar plaaslike regering is ’n regeringsvlak op sy eie en dat hy nie die magte en bevoegdhede het om daarby in te meng nie. Hy het die bevoegdheid, hy het die magte, hy kan salarisse op ’n maksimum vasstel, maar die agb Minister is ter wille van politieke gewildheid nie bereid om op te tree nie.

’n Tipiese voorbeeld is byvoorbeeld Bronkhortspruit-munisipaliteit - ’n klein plekkie - wat twee jaar gelede hulle munisipale bestuurder se salaris verhoog het na ’n halfmiljoen rand ’n jaar. Binne twee jaar daarná moet hulle erfbelasting verhoog met 170% sodat hulle minstens hulle munisipale bestuurder kan betaal.

Die VF Plus sê vir die agb Minister: gryp in, want dit is nie bekostigbaar vir die belastingbetalers op plaaslike regeringsvlak om vir munisipale bestuurders buitengewone hoë salarisse te betaal nie, en daarom sal ons ook nie hierdie pos steun nie. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, it is unacceptable to the FF Plus that municipal managers receive salaries that are equal to that of the President, and often are even higher than that of the President.

It is unacceptable to the FF Plus that municipal managers of smaller towns receive salaries that are even higher than that of the hon Minister at national level. Their responsibilities are not so great that they can earn those salaries.

It is also unacceptable to the FF Plus that when it suits him the hon Minister comes along and says that local government is a sphere of government on its own and that he does not have the powers and competence to interfere. He has the competence, he has the powers, he can determine maximum salaries, but, for the sake of political popularity, the hon Minister is not willing to act.

A typical example is Bronkhorstspruit municipality – a small place – that two years ago increased their municipal manager’s salary to half a million rand per year. Within two years they had to increase property rates by 170% so that they could at least pay their municipal manager.

The FF Plus is saying to the hon Minister: intervene, because it is not affordable for taxpayers at local government level to pay for municipal managers’ extraordinarily high salaries, and therefore we will not support this Budget Vote. I thank you.]

Mr P F SMITH: Thank you, Chairperson. The IFP will be supporting this Vote, but I want to say that we do have problems, which, I think, the department needs to address. The first is that there are real concerns about the lack of delivery in this country at municipal level.

People are marching; they are marching in protest. They are not marching against us or against them. They are marching against ANC councils and ANC councillors. So the first point to be made here is that delivery needs to be improved. We don’t need excuses for poor delivery. People must just own up and say that it is not happening. We don’t need the NIA to investigate it. We simply need to admit our failings and improve on what we are doing.

The second concern is the state of provinces at the moment. To get an Auditor-General’s report, as we have got now, at this stage of our development – since 1994 – is very disappointing for all of us. How is it possible that the number of qualified audits increases years after the introduction of the PFMA? How is it possible that there is a decline in capital expenditure 10 years after provinces were created? It is highly unacceptable and, again, I think the department needs to admit its failings here and just correct things.

So, I think, there is much that the department is doing that is right, and we support all of that. But in respect of these issues and others, these are really wake-up calls and we expect the department to do more and to do better. Thank you.

Ms N R NTSHULANA-BHENGU: Chairperson, Deputies, President, hon members, the ANC supports the Budget Vote. The budget for Provincial and Local Government is very central to the service delivery process that is aimed at improving the socio-economic conditions of our people.

The committee unanimously supported the Budget Vote, including the DA. Their objection today is based on their being the opposition party. The ACDP did not attend these meetings. Points that are being raised here were not raised in the portfolio committee.

The FF Plus does not attend any meetings of the portfolio committee and, as a result, the FF Plus is not informed on issues of provincial and local government. [Interjections.] That has also denied them the opportunity to learn what local government and the new order are all about. [Interjections.] Our understanding as public representatives is that we have a responsibility of looking at the challenges and then providing solutions to those challenges, instead of coming here and saying, “We do not support the Budget Vote.” [Interjections.] So, they don’t understand the new order. They cannot provide any solutions to the problems that are being experienced.

The portfolio committee engaged the Department of Provincial and Local Government and all other entities over which the portfolio committee provides oversight. The committee was satisfied with the progress made, notwithstanding the capacity challenges. We view these challenges as part of our process of development to which we need to continually find solutions. The ANC supports this Budget Vote. I thank you. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front Plus and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Vote No 6 - Public Works – put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr S E OPPERMAN: Chairperson, if we were serious about our oversight role as parliamentarians, all of us would adhere to the Local Government: Public Finance Management Act and point out shortcomings, nondelivery and corruption wherever it is found. We are not imbongis and constructive criticism is not to embarrass Ministers, but to point out problems that can cause frustration and anger, that can ultimately lead to eruptions like the ones we see on television and read about in newspapers.

If parliamentarians negate their oversight responsibilities and pretend that everything is fine, they undermine honesty, transparency and accountability, and must therefore take some of the blame for the fires that are burning on the streets of our townships. We must improve service delivery and stop looking for scapegoats or threaten people with Nuremberg trials. In any case, if Mr Goniwe wants to take that route, I want to challenge him to start with his own caucus. [Laughter.]

The DA’s support for the Public Works Budget Vote is qualified for the following reasons: Firstly, specific steps have been taken to improve service delivery and financial management; secondly, representatives from the department and the portfolio committee will address the issue of the underfunded mandate in our maintenance portfolio with Treasury; and thirdly, I believe our chairperson in the portfolio committee takes our oversight role very seriously.

Although we do not believe that the Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, can solve our job creation needs, we see it as a temporary intervention and support it as such. The fact that no-one has yet been appointed as Deputy Director-General for the EPWP is worrying, and must be addressed as a matter of urgency. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr F BHENGU: Chairperson, the ANC supports the Budget Vote. Key and immediate issues to be addressed by the department are the appointment of the DDGs for the EPWP and asset management. That delay is not assisting the programmes. It is heartening to learn that the DDG for the EPWP is commencing duties tomorrow.

The co-ordinating role of the department is central to monitoring implementation by other departments, it also assists in measuring the outcomes, making necessary interventions where required and meeting the targets spelled out in the President’s state of the nation address last year. Without proactive, efficient and committed officials, all these noble objectives will be a fallacy. There is a strong perception that some officials across the board fabricate misleading reports and commit the executive to pronounce on lies or programmes that are nonexistent or not achievable. If this is true, it is criminal and not acceptable.

The maintenance backlog remains a challenge. We are going to engage and continue to engage the department as far as this is concerned.

Lastly, it is worrying to learn that the department was not represented at the Nepad Council International Conference on Trade and Industry that took place in East London last week. I hope this is being investigated.

I have listened to the hon Opperman. I have to thank you, Chief, but there are some things that one has to say. You know the challenges of the second economy are real and the ANC is doing its utmost to address the inequalities that are there.

Gone are the days when whites prescribed what is good for a black person, what type of education and skills he or she should have, the type of job he or she should do, the colour of skin which the person he or she married must have, and worst of all, that black persons should use separate toilets, since black and white persons’ night soil must never mix. [Laughter.]

You must thank the Congress of the People that took place in Kliptown on 27 June 1955. You are here because of the ANC, whether you like it or not, that’s a fact. Thank you. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 7 - Government Communications and Information System – put.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 8 - National Treasury – put. Declarations of vote:

Adv H C SCHMIDT: Chairperson, the DA’s support of the intelligence budget does not endorse the previous Minister’s extravagance and lack of focus on whose baseline it is founded. It is a rather guarded preliminary appreciation of the current Minister’s prioritisation of core business, but it is most definitely not an endorsement of the despicable insinuations by certain ANC members in this House that the DA is instigating the current widespread unrest in our municipalities.

Let me be very clear. We support our people’s fundamental democratic rights, such as freedom of speech and association, but we do, and we always will, condemn any public violence and disorder. Whilst the National Intelligence Agency must monitor causes of large-scale unrest and instability to ensure national security, the ANC’s blurred line between party and state poses a real threat to our democracy.

The Chief Whip of the ANC’s remarks about Nuremberg trials last week certainly brought a chilling perspective. It reminded us of the Reichstag fire which the Nazis caused but blamed on the opposition. Will we now have open season on opposition parties under the veil of national security, the ANC using state machinery to suppress opinion and criticism?

Another early warning sign of such overreaction may be the decision to charge 13 protestors in Harrismith with sedition. Is a small group of protestors capable of planning to and/or overthrowing the state? A more clearly definable and identifiable third force behind the protest is surely the destitute people of this country, marginalised for most of their lives, yet to experience any meaningful service delivery after 11 years of ANC rule. Perhaps the NIA should study the Daily Sun in order to understand this. The only way to address these protests is to either effect proper delivery . . .

An HON MEMBER: Is that your newspaper of record?

Adv H C SCHMIDT: It is yours! . . . or change the government at the voting polls. Thank you.

Dr S C CWELE: Chair, the ANC supports this Budget Vote. Today we have a transformed intelligence service, comprising of men and women who work tirelessly, and sometimes under dangerous conditions, to defend our democratic order and to ensure that every South African lives under condition of peace and stability. Intelligence services ensure our national security and protect and promote our common national interests. They continue to deal a blow to crime syndicates, to terrorist activity and to taxi violence and continue to monitor all threats to service delivery.

Every patriot must support these men and women and give them the necessary capacity to identify threats to our wellbeing. They live up to the spirit of our Constitution and the spirit of the Freedom Charter, namely that “there shall be security to all” and that “there shall be peace and friendship”. Thank you. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 9 - Public Enterprises – put and agreed to.

Vote No 10 - Public Service and Administration - put:

Declarations of vote:

Mrs C DUDLEY: Chairman, the ACDP will object to this Budget Vote because we have serious problems within departments, which are all adding up to the poor service delivery – in fact, the shocking service delivery – that people are experiencing right now.

Generally, one of the problems is that salaries are below market value and this doesn’t attract skilled personnel, and we have this huge flood of skilled personnel leaving the departments. We’ve got people being placed at levels above their skills so that they can be paid a decent salary, but this doesn’t help, because we obviously then still have the lack of experience and skills at that level to drive the delivery in the departments. I believe the Nats had a similar situation in which they didn’t like to give across-the-board salary increases either, and they dealt with this by having special budgets for development in which they targeted specific groups of people. Perhaps we should consider something like that, for example to deal with the lack of service delivery in the SAPS, our Departments of Health, Social Development, which is critical, our teachers in Education, Water Affairs, etc. The ACDP will be voting against this budget. Thank you.

Mnr W D SPIES: Agb Voorsitter, die VF Plus is bekommerd dat die Batho Pele- projek, wat teen baie groot koste aangepak is, nie daarin slaag om dienslewering in die staatsadministrasie te verbeter nie. Prof Michael Cowling van die Universiteit van Natal het onlangs in ’n TV-program opgemerk dat dienslewering in sekere staatsdepartemente só agteruitgegaan het dat die howe nou mikrobestuur van staatsadministrasies moet toepas.

Die obsessie met transformasie veroorsaak dat verskeie poste in die Staatsdiens eerder vakant gehou word as om dit met wit persone te vul, en dienslewering lei daaronder. As ’n organisasie dienslewering aan die publiek wil verbeter, moet hy sy eie mense menswaardig behandel, anders kan hy nie verandering in hulle optrede na buite verwag nie.

Die VF Plus steun nie die begrotingspos nie, want ons kan nie die feit steun dat dienslewering op die transformasie-altaar geplaas word nie. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr W D SPIES: Hon Chairperson, the FF Plus is concerned that the Batho Pele Project, undertaken at great cost, has not succeeded in improving service delivery in the state administration. Prof Michael Cowling of the University of Natal recently stated in a TV programme that service delivery in certain government departments has deteriorated to such an extent, that the courts have been obliged to implement micro-management of state administrations.

The obsession with transformation has resulted in various posts in the Public Service being kept vacant, rather than appointing whites to fill them, and service delivery has suffered as a consequence. If an organisation wishes to improve service delivery to the public, it should first treat its own personnel with the necessary dignity, otherwise it cannot expect a change in their attitude towards the public.

The FF Plus does not support this Budget Vote because we cannot support the fact that service delivery has been sacrificed for the sake of transformation. I thank you.]

Mr P J GOMOMO: Chairperson, I’m shocked to see that the FF Plus wants a division on this item. I’m also shocked to see that the ACDP is objecting to this, because neither of these parties serves in the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration. They do not know what is happening in that department at all.

I want to salute my Minister, Geraldine Fraser-Moleketi, for the role which she is playing in this department. She’s playing a very central role. She’s setting a pace for the transformation of South Africa. She has gone so far as to go to African states to establish public service and administration there. It is clear that we set policies for service delivery and that our people are aware of this. We care, we lead, we deliver. We support this Budget Vote. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to (African Christian Democratic Party and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 12 - SA Management Development Institute (SAMDI) – put and agreed to.

Vote No 13 - Statistics SA – put and agreed to.

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr N P Nhleko): My apologies, hon members. I’ve skipped Vote No 11 - Public Service Commission.

Vote No 11 - Public Service Commission – put and agreed to.

Vote No 14 - Arts and Culture – put.

Declarations of vote:

Mrs D VAN DER WALT: Chairperson, South Africa is made up of a rich diversity of cultural, religious and linguistic communities. Our success requires the nurturing of a healthy self-confidence in all our people. This in turn requires that we accept one another’s identities without needing to resort to either aggression or submission. Therefore, over and above the broad, constitutionally entrenched rights to freedom of association and expression, the government has a duty to take active steps to preserve South Africa’s cultural roots.

Kulturele aangeleenthede het egter agterweë gebly op die kantlyn van beleidvorming. Pogings om Suid-Afrika se kulturele geskiedenis aan te teken is besmet met blatante politieke interpretasies deur die ANC. Watter geskiedenis moet ons as nasionale erfenis beskou? (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Cultural matters have, however, lagged behind and remained on the sidelines of policy formation. Attempts to record South Africa’s cultural history have been contaminated with blatant political interpretations by the ANC. What history should we consider to be our national heritage?]

Ya gago, goba ya ka, goba ya rena? [Yours, mine or ours?] [Interjections.]

Naamsveranderings wat deel is van die ANC se transformasieproses is slegs van toepassing op Afrikaanse name. [Tussenwerpsels.] Ons kulturele geskiedenis behoort behoue te bly deur middel van die uitvoerende en visuele kunste, deur museums, biblioteke, private en universiteitsversamelings, maar al die bronne van inligting en inspirasie word voortdurend onder die ANC-bestuur bedreig deur ’n tekort aan volhoubare befondsing en die onsekerheid oor toekomstige ondersteuning van die regering.

Onder die dekmantel van veeltaligheid het die regering taal as ’n instrument gebruik vir maatskaplike uitsluiting. Engels word eksklusief op byna alle vlakke van regering gebruik en vertalingsgeriewe is minimaal. Die DA glo dat taal die middel is van denke, kommunikasie en identiteit. ’n Nuwe benadering vir tale moet gevind word waarin moedertaalgebruikers van al Suid-Afrika se inheemse tale hulle taal met trots en vertroue kan gebruik. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Name changes that are part of the ANC’s transformation process are only applicable to Afrikaans names. [Interjections.] Our cultural history should be preserved through the performing and visual arts, through museums, libraries, and private and university collections, but all these sources of information and inspiration are continually being threatened under ANC management by a lack of sustainable funding and uncertainty about future support from the government.

Under the guise of multilingualism the government has used language as an instrument of social exclusion. English is used exclusively at almost all levels of government and translation facilities are minimal. The DA believes that language is the medium of thoughts, communication and identity. A new approach to languages must be found in which mother-tongue speakers of all South Africa’s indigenous languages can use their languages with pride and confidence.]

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr N P Nhleko): Order! Your time has expired, madam.

Mrs D VAN DER WALT: Die DA gaan nié die begrotingspos steun nie. The DA will not support this Budget Vote.] [Interjections.]

Mnr W D SPIES: Agb Voorsitter, die Departement van Kuns en Kultuur huisves die Pan-Suid-Afrikaanse Taalraad. Die VF Plus wil baie graag hulde bring aan PANSAT vir die goeie werk wat gedoen word om veeltaligheid te bevorder, dikwels teen heersende tendense in en dikwels in stryd met die heersende beleid.

Die departement huisves egter ook die SA Geografiese Nameraad, wat die afgelope tyd nuus gemaak het oor sy aanbeveling aan die Minister oor die registrasie van die naam van ’n munisipaliteit as ’n pleknaam. Die VF Plus is oortuig dat die Geografiese Nameraad in die betrokke geval buite sy magte opgetree het en dat die proses wat gevolg is, aanleiding kan gee tot groot ontevredenheid en selfs regstappe. Daarom wil ons graag praat oor maniere waarop die verskeidenheid in Suid-Afrika erken en versterk kan word.

Hoewel ons die begrotingspos steun ter wille van die goeie werk wat gedoen word deur liggame soos PANSAT en andere, doen ons dit met dié voorbehoud dat ons nie die toenemende druk op die Afrikaanse kultuurerfenis kan steun nie en dat ons graag oplossings wil soek vir hierdie wesenlike saak. Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr W D SPIES: Hon Chairperson, the Department of Arts and Culture is home to the Pan South African Language Board. The FF Plus would like to pay tribute to PanSALB for the good work being done to promote multilingualism, often contrary to prevailing tendencies, and often in conflict with current policy.

The department is, however, also home to the SA Geographical Names Council, which has recently been in the news on account of its recommendation to the Minister regarding the registering of the name of a municipality as a place name. The FF Plus is convinced that the Geographical Names Council exceeded its mandate in this particular instance, and that the procedure followed could give rise to dissatisfaction and even legal action. That is why we would like to discuss ways in which the diversity in South Africa can be recognised and enhanced.

Although we support the Budget Vote for the sake of the good work being done by PanSALB and others, we are doing so with the proviso that we cannot support the increasing pressure being put on Afrikaans cultural heritage, and that we would like to seek solutions for this crucial issue. Thank you.]

Ms S D MOTUBATSE-HOUNKPATIN: Chairperson, I rise here in support of the Budget Vote on Arts and Culture on behalf of the ANC. This budget will surely promote the languages as stipulated in the supreme law of this country, the Constitution.

Regarding the name change, we have the SA Geographical Names Council, which was established according to the statute passed by this Parliament. If anything done by the council is not correct the committee can call in the council and correct the matter. I don’t know whether it is street language or isiZulu that says: “Wa lala, wa sala.” [“You snooze, you lose.”] [Interjections.]

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES-254: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya, S
E; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Bapela, K O; Bekker, H J; Benjamin, J;
Beukman, F; Bhamjee, Y S; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, M J; Bhengu, P; Biyela, B P
; Bloem, D V; Blose, H M; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W;
Buthelezi, M G; Cachalia, I M; Carrim, Y I; Chang, E S; Chauke, H P;
Chikunga, L S; Chohan-Khota, F I; Combrinck, J J; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S
C; Dambuza, B N; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T;
Direko, I W; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dodovu, T S; du Toit, D C ; Erwin, A;
Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Fubbs , J L; Gabela, L S; Gcwabaza, N
E ; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gillwald, C E ; Godi, N T;
Gololo, C L; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Gore, V C; Greyling, C H F;
Greyling, L W; Groenewald, P J; Gumede, D M ; Gumede, M M; Gxowa, N B;
Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hendricks, L B; Hendrickse, P; Herandien, C
B; Hogan, B A; Huang, S; Jacobus, L ; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R;
Johnson, C B; Johnson, M; Jordan, Z P; Joubert, L K; Kalako, M U;
Kasienyane, O R; Kati, Z J; Kekana, C D; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E;
Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P; Kondlo, N C; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A;
Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T;
Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C;
Mabudafhasi, T R; Mabuyakhulu, D V; Madlala-Routledge, N C; Maduma , L
D; Madumise, M M; Magau, K R; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E ; Magwanishe, G
B; Mahlawe, N M; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Makgate,
M W; Malahlela, M J; Maluleka, H P; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N;
Martins, B A D; Mashangoane, P R; Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J; Masutha,
T M; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M H; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F;
Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbombo, N D; Mdladlana, M M S;
Meruti, M V; Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mkongi, B M; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P
G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnguni, B A; Moatshe, M S;
Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J;
Mokoena, A D; Mokoto, N R; Molefe, C T; Moleketi, P J; Moloto, K A;
Monareng, O E; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morutoa, M R; Mosala, B G;
Moss, L N; Moss, M I; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpaka, H M; Mshudulu, S
A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Mzondeki, M J
G; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-
Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N;
Ngele, N J; Ngema, M V; Ngiba, B C; Ngwenya, M L; Nhlengethwa, D G;
Njobe, M A A; Nkuna, C; Nogumla, R Z; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, S H;
Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, S B; Nxumalo, M D; Nzimande, L
P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Padayachie, R L; Pahad, A G H;
Pahad, E G; Pandor, G N M; Phadagi, M G; Phungula, J P; Pule, B E ;
Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin,
M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C P M; Ramphele, T D H; Rasmeni, S M;
Reid, L R R; Roopnarain, U; Saloojee, E; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E A;
Seaton, S A; Sekgobela, P S; September , C C; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J
B; Sigcau, Sylvia N; Sikakane, M R; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B;
Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, P F; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonto, M R; Sotyu, M
M; Spies, W D; Stephens, M; Stofile, M A; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E;
Tinto, B; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E;
Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Turok, B; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z;
Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Wyk, Annelizé; Vos, S C;
Vundisa, S S; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M ; Yengeni, L L; Zikalala, C N Z;
Zita, L; Zulu, B Z ; Zulu, N E.


NOES-48: Blanché, J P I; Boinamo, G G; Botha, C-S; Camerer, S M;
Coetzee, R; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M;
Dudley, C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M; Green, L M;
Jankielsohn, R; Kalyan, S V; King, R J; Kohler-Barnard, D; Labuschagne,
L B; Leon, A J; Lowe, C M; Madasa, Z L; Maluleke, D K; Masango, S J;
Meshoe, K R J; Minnie, K J; Morgan, G R; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R S; Opperman,
S E; Rabie, P J; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Semple, J
A; Smuts, M; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Swathe, M M;
Trent, E W; Van der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M; Van Niekerk, A I; Waters, M;
Weber, H; Zille, H.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 15 - Education – put.

Declarations of vote:

Ms H ZILLE: Chairperson, last year the DA supported the Education budget and pledged support for the Minister’s commitment to quality for all in education. This year we oppose her budget and call for a division because of the divergence between what she says and what her department does.

Every time she has to make a policy decision the Minister chooses ideology above quality and her budget reflects this. Instead of improving the 24 000 dysfunctional schools, she continues to pressure the 5 000 functional schools, all of which are working well despite her department and not because of it.

The same thing is happening in the university system. The Minister blames them for the spiralling failure rate and instructs them to tighten admissions instead of acknowledging that the school system is to blame for the fact that most students are hopelessly underprepared for tertiary study.

The Minister has acknowledged that many of her provincial departments actually detract more value than they add to education at the cost of billions, yet her top officials seem powerless to do anything about it, using bureaucratic jargon to avoid getting a grasp on mismanagement and corruption in the provinces.

This budget provides for a luxury head office for officials while so many learners still have no roof over their heads. The DA supports the real black economic empowerment through outstanding education and economic growth this Minister provides through her budget despite the continuing decline of one of these key pillars.

Prince N E ZULU: Chairperson, the IFP will support this Vote, but would like to note as follows: The indigenous language policy debate comes at the right time in the history of education in our country, but of significance is that the Department of Education needs to ascertain which of the indigenous languages could be a commercial language, a commercial language that is the lifeblood of a nation in this world of a globalising economy. I thank you.

Mrs C DUDLEY: Chairperson, the ACDP has always stressed the critical role education must play in South Africa in realising a quality life for all our people. Education must be a priority and the ACDP therefore welcomes the increased budget allocation. The huge challenges in delivering quality education cannot be wished away or ignored and the inequities of the past have therefore been a necessary focus.

The ACDP, however, has been acutely conscious of the role teachers play in the equation and is convinced that more effort and money must be invested in not only raising the standard of teachers’ skills and training, but ensuring that salaries and incentives attract and retain dedicated and diligent people to the profession.

The ACDP is also convinced that government is making a grave error in continuing to erode the critical role school governing bodies should play in schools. This undermines the role of parents, who are ultimately responsible for their children and their children’s education.

It is imperative that the state recognises and respects the role of parents in the lives of their children and works towards strengthening this role and facilitating greater involvement. The reason why many of our public schools have attained high standards is precisely that dedicated parents have sacrificed so much time and effort and played a key role in decisions affecting their children’s schooling.

Allowing for choice of language is a commendable goal and the ACDP agrees that mother-tongue education, especially at primary school level, is very important. We are, however, concerned that making English optional is not in the best interests of South African children. English links us to one another, it is the language of commerce and business, the language of most higher education, the language of our region, the Commonwealth, the AU, the UN and most world fora and world business. This policy could deprive many of our people of the opportunity to learn English and further disadvantage them.

Previous lack of support for learners in the form of textbooks and stationery has placed many schools at a disadvantage and the delay in subsidising schools accommodating significant numbers of children whose parents are struggling financially has placed school governing bodies and teachers under tremendous strain, which has hampered progress.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member, you time has expired.

Mrs C DUDLEY: The ACDP will vote in favour of this Budget, but appeals to government to stop creating continual uncertainty in education, which will visibly impact on all stakeholders. Thank you. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member, your time has expired! Thank you.

Dr P W A MULDER: Geagte Voorsitter, onderwys is, wat ons betref, waarskynlik die belangrikste portefeulje wat ons hier kan hanteer. Dit gaan werklik oor die toekoms van Suid-Afrika en dit gaan oor die toekoms van ons kinders. Ons wil graag die Minister en die nuwe D-G, veral, ’n billike kans gee betreffende onderwys.

Die VF Plus steun die standpunte wat die afgelope ruk genoem is ten gunste van moedertaalonderrig, en wil graag die departement aanmoedig om dit nie net tot op die vierde vlak nie, maar tot die hoogste moontlike vlak uit te brei, en ons sal haar graag in daardie opsig wil steun.

Artikel 29 van die Grondwet maak ook voorsiening vir enkelmediumskole in Suid-Afrika. Tans is meer as 90% van alle skole in Suid-Afrika enkelmedium- Engelse skole. Minder as 3% van alle skole is enkelmedium-Afrikaanse skole. Nou kom die LUR vir onderwys in die Noord-Kaap en vaardig ’n bevel uit dat alle skole in daardie provinsie dubbelmedium moet word. Dubbelmedium beteken die tyd in die eie moedertaal word gehalveer in die klaskamer en kinders word geforseer om ook in ’n ander medium as hulle eie taal onderrig te word.

In hierdie stadium is daar drie hofsake omtrent hierdie soort sake aan die gang. Dit plaas druk op hierdie 3% skole en dit is vir ons onaanvaarbaar, en ons dink om daardie rede gaan ons in hierdie stadium ons protes wys deur teen hierdie begrotingspos te stem. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Dr P W A MULDER: Hon Chairperson, education, in our opinion, is the most important portfolio that we deal with here. It really concerns the future of South Africa and the future of our children. We would really like to give the Minister and the new D-G, in particular, a fair chance regarding education.

The FF Plus supports the views that have been mentioned recently regarding mother-tongue education, and would like to encourage the department not only to extend it to the fourth level, but to the highest level possible, and we would like to support her in that regard.

Section 29 of the Constitution also makes provision for single medium schools in South Africa. At present more than 90% of all schools in South Africa are single medium English schools. Less than 3% of all schools are single medium Afrikaans schools. Now the MEC for education in the Northern Cape has come along and decreed that all schools in that province should become dual medium schools. Dual medium means that the time allocated to the mother tongue is halved and that children are forced to receive instruction in language other than their own.

At this stage there are three ongoing court cases in this regard. It places pressure on these 3% of schools and that is unacceptable to us, and we consequently feel that at this stage we will show our opposition to this by voting against this Budget Vote. I thank you.]

Prof S M MAYATULA: Chairperson, I’m happy to report, as I stand here, that anybody who is anything in education is currently meeting in Durban - the vice-chancellors, the teacher unions, the student bodies and the parents – to discuss the practical implications for education. I want to commend our Minister for being able to bring everybody together.

I sometimes wonder whether we understand what we mean when we say we are objecting to a Budget Vote. Literally, what that would mean is, everything that we have done in education currently would have to stop. Fortunately, people out there do not agree with the DA. Practically, if we were to respond the way they want us to, it would mean we’re not appreciative of the millions and millions of rands that we have put aside for our students.

That would mean we are not appreciative of the money that has been put aside to improve the conditions of service for career-pathing for our teachers. That would mean we must come to a standstill in our budget that we have put aside when people in the villages are happy that for the first time this government is not going to allow them to pay a cent for their children. [Applause.]

If we were to listen to the DA, we would think that the strategy that we have to improve science education – we have allocated vast sums of money for that – should be aborted. Fortunately, the people out there are with us.

When we talk about 500 working schools, you’d think that we did not know about those schools, but we do not apologise when we say we are going to go to the squatter camps and the rural areas, to those kids who are unable to go to those schools to assist them so that they can be part of this broader South Africa. The ANC supports this Budget Vote. [Time expired.]

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES-258: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya, S
E; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Bapela, K O; Bekker, H J; Benjamin, J;
Beukman, F; Bhamjee, Y S; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, M J; Bhengu, P; Biyela, B P
; Bloem, D V; Blose, H M; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W;
Cachalia, I M; Carrim, Y I; Chang, E S; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S;
Chohan-Khota, F I; Combrinck, J J; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B
N; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Direko, I W;
Ditshetelo, P H K; Dodovu, T S; du Toit, D C; Dudley, C; Erwin, A;
Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Fubbs , J L; Gabela, L S; Gcwabaza, N
E ; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gillwald, C E ; Godi, N T;
Gololo, C L; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Gore, V C; Green, L M; Greyling,
C H F; Greyling, L W; Gumede, D M ; Gumede, M M; Gxowa, N B; Hanekom, D
A; Hangana, N E; Hendricks, L B; Hendrickse, P; Herandien, C B; Hogan, B
A; Huang, S; Jacobus, L ; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Johnson, C B;
Johnson, M; Jordan, Z P; Joubert, L K; Kalako, M U; Kasienyane, O R;
Kasrils, R; Kati, Z J; Kekana, C D; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E;
Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P; Kondlo, N C; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A;
Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T;
Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C;
Mabudafhasi, T R; Mabuyakhulu, D V; Madasa, Z L; Madlala-Routledge, N C;
Maduma , L D; Madumise, M M; Magau, K R; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E ;
Magwanishe, G B; Mahlawe, N M; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi,
X C; Makgate, M W; Malahlela, M J; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleka, H P; Manuel,
T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Mashangoane, P R; Mashiane, L
M; Mashigo, R J; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M
H; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M;
Mbombo, N D; Mdladlana, M M S; Meruti, M V; Meshoe, K R J; Mgabadeli, H
C; Mkhize, Z S; Mkongi, B M; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P
N; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnguni, B A; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J;
Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mokoena, A D;
Mokoto, N R; Molefe, C T; Moleketi, P J; Moloto, K A; Monareng, O E;
Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morutoa, M R; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Moss,
M I; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpaka, H M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B;
Mthethwa, E N; Mzondeki, M J G; Ndlovu, V B; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C;
Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B
T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngema, M V; Ngiba, B C; Ngwenya, M L;
Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkuna, C; Nogumla, R Z; Nqakula, C;
Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, S B; Nxumalo, M
D; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Padayachie, R L;
Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Pandor, G N M; Phadagi, M G; Phungula, J P;
Pule, B E ; Rabinowitz, R; Radebe, B A; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M
M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C P M; Ramphele, T D H;
Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Roopnarain, U; Saloojee, E; Schneemann, G D;
Schoeman, E A; Seaton, S A; Sefularo, M; Sekgobela, P S; September , C
C; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibuyana, M W; Sigcau, Sylvia N;
Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S
T; Smith, P F; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonto, M R; Sotyu, M M; Stephens,
M; Stofile, M A; Surty, M E; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tobias,
T V; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tshivhase, T J;
Tshwete, P; Turok, B; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S
C; Van Wyk, Annelizé; Vezi, T E; Vos, S C; Vundisa, S S; Woods, G G;
Xingwana, L M ; Yengeni, L L; Zikalala, C N Z; Zita, L; Zulu, B Z; Zulu,
N E.


NOES-48: Blanché, J P I; Boinamo, G G; Camerer, S M; Coetzee, R;
Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Ellis, M J;
Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M; Groenewald, P J; Henderson, R K;
Jankielsohn, R; Kalyan, S V; King, R J; Kohler-Barnard, D; Labuschagne,
L B; Leon, A J; Lowe, C M; Maluleke, D K; Masango, S J; Minnie, K J;
Morgan, G R; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Nkem-Abonta, E;
Ntuli, R S; Opperman, S E; Rabie, P J; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Schmidt, H C;
Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Smuts, M; Spies, W D; Steyn, A C; Swart, M;
Swart, P S; Swathe, M M; Trent, E W; Van der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M; Van
Niekerk, A I; Waters, M; Weber, H; Zille, H.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 16 – Health – put.

Decarations of vote:

Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Over 6 million South Africans are HIV-positive, one in eight, and over 380 000 people died last year due to Aids-related diseases. By 2010 we will have 900 000 people dying of full-blown Aids each year. The time of entertaining the Aids denialists, in fact of allowing them to operate in this country at all, has passed.

There are provinces that failed to spend their HIV-budgets last year, with a few notable exceptions. Their performances have been dismal. Even where the roll-out of life-extending antiretroviral drugs has at last become a reality, the negativity of the Minister of Health, in relation to this globally accepted treatment of Aids, her statement that ARVs are killing South Africans, set the will of our health workers, and has ensured that the roll-out has slowed to a snail’s pace.

Why should we believe that provinces such as the Eastern Cape will have the ability, or indeed the will, to utilise their Aids budget during the 2005- 06 fiscal year? This government is allowing South Africa to become the Aids denialist capital of the world, with Cape Town as its epicentre. The Ministry of Health must join the Deputy President and state categorically that nutrition cannot and will never cure Aids.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon members, please allow the member at the podium to make her speech. [Interjections.] Please, please. Nobody should shout, everybody must talk. Hon member, please proceed.

Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Thank you. The Minister is still associating with and pandering to the denialists, allowing them to play their garlic games in this country, and convincing Aids patients to throw aside their antiretrovirals, in exchange for a Greek salad. Our teachers are dying in droves.

Minister, you seem to have a new fixation on obesity. With all due respect, your side of the House is giving fat cats a bad name. So, when that charity begins at home, clean up your own backyard, before you lecture the rest of South Africa on being overweight. [Applause.]

Dr R RABINOWITZ: Chairperson, comedy, tragedy, disgrace, these are the words that can be applied to certain unhealthy events that are occurring under the watch of this government and its Health Minister. The current trial between the TAC and the Dr Rath foundation is a mockery. It is a direct result of the confusion in Aids policy, the double speak, the lack of will to treat people with HIV, the lack of capacity, the overcentralisation in the Health Department, and the betrayal of all those South Africans who have HIV/Aids, and particularly those under the age of 15, of whom 50% are expected to die before the age of 40.

Another court case that is a travesty and an indication of an impact of the Department of Health’s misguided policies is that between the Constitutional Court and the Cape High Court. Whichever way the trial goes, the patient in the private sector, who government claims to be helping get cheaper medicines, will continue to pay more for health care. While private hospitals make good profits, medical schemes save money and put their prices up.

Pharmaceutical companies maintain their prices slightly higher than the minimum price that was given to discount pharmacies.

Health legislation is filled with contradictions. It would do well if the government adopted some of the IFPs policies: Promoting decentralisation, using public-private partnerships to link one of the best private sectors with one of the worst public sectors, having less regulation and more transparency for medicine pricing and medical schemes.

The IFP has a completely different will to support people with Aids. First, they must receive antiretrovirals, supported by better diets and vitamins. The most important right, we believe, should not be the populist rhetonic about privacy, but the meaningful right to protection from non- discrimination. The IFP supports the budget because we support the administrative staff in the department and the public servants who work under a very difficult Constitution and stifling legislation. I thank you.

Mrs C DUDLEY: Chair, government’s allocation in the national budget, in response to HIV and Aids in South Africa, shows at least financial commitment to fighting the epidemic. Yet the Health Minister and the President continue to downplay the HIV/Aids crisis facing South Africa. Minister Tshabalala-Msimang has sadly damaged the credibility of natural remedies in her unbalanced crusade to discredit antiretrovirals.

Even the Finance Minister omitted to make reference to resource allocation specifically for the newly rolled-out ARV treatment programme. Of the 53 000 target for individuals to receive ARV treatment at public facilities, 28 786 are accessing treatment at these facilities, and this is indicative of major problems.

Increased resources require improved capacity to manage and spend the allocations, but the health sector is under increasing strain due to staff shortages and insufficient management structures at district and local level. This has negatively affected the roll-out of all vital health services, including antiretroviral treatment to HIV/Aids patients.

The ACDP calls on government to produce a comprehensive plan for human resource development, to facilitate effective and efficient spending of the increased budget. Recent legislation to ensure increased access to abortion has added to the unbearable pressure already experienced by overburdened and stressed health workers. This has prompted the nurses union DENOSA to say that nurses will have no choice but to resign in protest.

Our health professionals are in demand throughout the world, and we cannot afford to be blasé. Every individual has a right to conscience, constitutionally and God given. It is nothing short of insane to force people to terminate the lives of unborn babies against their conscience and belief. A letter from a traumatised doctor recently highlighted this as he expressed his horror at finding a dead 16 – 18 week old perfectly formed baby boy in a hospital towel. The baby had been aborted, his life taken by his own mother with the help of doctors, nurses, legislation and our silence.

The ACDP will not vote in favour of this budget, which facilitates ongoing atrocities taking the lives of unborn babies, and is responsible for many premature deaths of HIV patients. Thank you.

Dr C P MULDER: Geagte Voorsitter, jaar na jaar wanneer ons by hierdie proses kom om te stem vir die verskillende begrotingsposte, dan vind ons dat daar een departement is wat die hewigste reaksie uitlok by die opposisiepartye, maar ook by die publiek daar buite, en dit is telkens die Departement van Gesondheid. Iets moet vir ons sê dat daar duidelik ’n probleem is.

In die vorige bedeling het ons vir Dr Zuma gehad, wat dit op ’n sekere styl hanteer het en die nuwe agb Minister hanteer dit op dieselfde styl die afgelope klompie jare, deur die kritiek wat gegee word na haar en haar departement se kant toe, met minagting af te maak en weg te klap. Die feit van die saak is dat Suid-Afrika se gesondheidsdienste in ’n krisis is.

Terwyl ons in daardie krisis sit, is die Minister besig om met allerhande rate te kom – en dit is nie eens boererate nie – om die hele kwessie van Vigs te hanteer, plaas daarvan dat die regerende party gaan kyk na internasionale voorbeelde wat reeds gewerk het, soos byvoorbeeld in Uganda, waar daar nie ’n dubbele boodskap uitgestuur is deur die regering van dag tot dag in daardie land nie. In Suid-Afrika word ’n totale dubbele boodskap uitgestuur: dan is dit knoffel, dan is dit oefening, dan is dit lemoensap – en so gaan ons aan.

Die feit van die saak is dat hierdie departement onder die agb Minister se leiding ’n gesondheidsituasie bestuur, waar ons jaar na jaar van ons topmense in die mediese professie verloor, omdat hulle die land verlaat en geen land in die wêreld kan daardie kostes aangaan en bekostig om mense jaar na jaar te verloor nie.

Wanneer ons kom by die verpleegsberoep, dan vind ons presies dieselfde situasie. Die een verpleegster na die ander verlaat Suid-Afrika en gaan vind werk in ander plekke omdat dit daar vir hulle beter is, want daar word nie hier na hulle gekyk nie. Laastens, weet die agb Minister ook wat gedoen is aan die aptekersberoep in Suid-Afrika.

Ons kan dit nie bekostig dat standaarde daal nie en dan het ek nie eens gepraat oor die standpunt en die stand van ons staatshospitale nie. Gaan kyk hoe dit daar gaan. Gaan kyk hoe die situasie agteruitgaan. Dit is werklik tyd dat die Minister erns maak met ’n departement. En daar doen sy dit weer: ’n hand van minagting na almal in die professie daar buite. Ons ken haar so. Ons sal daarteen stem. (Translations of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Dr C P MULDER: Hon Chairperson, year after year when we come to this process of voting for the various Votes, we find that there is one department that evokes the most vehement reaction from the opposition parties, but also from the public out there, and that is often the Department of Health. Something must tell us that there is clearly a problem.

In the previous dispensation we had Dr Zuma, who dealt with it in a certain way, and the new hon Minister has been dealing with it in the same way over the past few years, namely by brushing aside and ignoring with disdain the criticism aimed at her and her department. The fact of the matter is that South Africa’s health services are in a crisis.

While we are in that crisis, the Minister is suggesting all kinds of remedies – and they are not even home remedies – to deal with the whole question of Aids, instead of the ruling party studying international examples which have already worked, such as in Uganda for example, where no double message has been sent out by the government from day to day in that country. In South Africa a completely double message is being sent out: now it is garlic, then it is exercise, then it is orange juice – and so we go on.

The fact of the matter is that this department under the leadership of the hon Minister is managing a health situation where we are losing some of our top people in the medical profession year after year, because they leave the country, and no country in the world can incur those costs and afford to lose people year after year.

When we come to the nursing profession, then we find exactly the same situation. One nurse after the other is leaving South Africa and finding work elsewhere since it is better for them there, because they are not looked after here. Lastly, the hon Minister knows what has also been done to the pharmaceutical profession in South Africa.

We cannot allow standards to drop and then I have not even mentioned the standpoint and the condition of our state hospitals. Go and look at what is happening there. Go and look at how the situation is deteriorating. The time has really come for the Minister to take a department seriously. And there she does it again: a gesture of disdain to everyone in the profession out there. We know her like that. We shall vote against it.]

Mrs M M MADUMISE: Madam Chairperson, the issues that these political parties are raising today, are in fact, the issues that we ourselves have highlighted as our challenges and we have been dealing with them, and we will continue dealing with them as they arise. [Interjections.] Shut up!

You see, people like the leader of this DA; I don’t know where they come from. [Interjections.] Whether they live outside South Africa, or on Mars, you are right, that’s where they come from because they don’t come across the people that we come across. These are our people and we take care of them. [Interjections.] Listen, this government has increased the allocations to the programme of HIV and Aids, you cannot find it anywhere in Africa, not anywhere, only in South Africa. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon members, hon member, please, one moment. Please allow the member to make her statement.

Mrs M M MADUMISE: Wena, Mofumahadi Dudley, o a kwatisa ka nako e nngwe. [You, Madam Dudley, are sometimes annoying.] [Laughter.]

When you talk about termination of pregnancy, this is our brainchild. It was decided by the majority of the women of South Africa, when you were still in Zimbabwe. [Laughter.] They like this programme. They support it with the few nurses who are committed to it. They are there in numbers, including the whites who support this programme. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The House divided:

AYES-248: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya, S
E; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Bapela, K O; Bekker, H J; Benjamin, J;
Beukman, F; Bhamjee, Y S; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, M J; Bhengu, P; Biyela, B P
; Bloem, D V; Blose, H M; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W;
Buthelezi, M G; Cachalia, I M; Carrim, Y I; Chang, E S; Chauke, H P;
Chikunga, L S; Chohan-Khota, F I; Combrinck, J J; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S
C; Dambuza, B N; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T;
Direko, I W; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dodovu, T S; du Toit, D C ; Erwin, A;
Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Fubbs , J L; Gabela, L S; Gcwabaza, N
E ; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gillwald, C E ; Godi, N T;
Gololo, C L; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M ;
Gumede, M M; Gxowa, N B; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hendricks, L B;
Hendrickse, P; Herandien, C B; Huang, S; Jacobus, L ; Jeffery, J H;
Joemat, R R; Johnson, C B; Johnson, M; Jordan, Z P; Joubert, L K;
Kalako, M U; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kati, Z J; Kekana, C D;
Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P; Kondlo, N C;
Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S;
Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Mabandla, B S; Mabe,
L L; Mabena, D C; Mabudafhasi, T R; Mabuyakhulu, D V; Madlala-Routledge,
N C; Maduma , L D; Madumise, M M; Magau, K R; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E
; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlawe, N M; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J;
Makasi, X C; Makgate, M W; Malahlela, M J; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleka, H P;
Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Mashangoane, P R;
Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F;
Matlala, M H; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M;
Maziya, A M; Mbombo, N D; Mdladlana, M M S; Meruti, M V; Mgabadeli, H C;
Mkhize, Z S; Mkongi, B M; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N;
Mngomezulu, G P; Mnguni, B A; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng,
T R; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mokoena, A D; Mokoto, N R;
Molefe, C T; Moleketi, P J; Moloto, K A; Monareng, O E; Montsitsi, S D;
Moonsamy, K; Morutoa, M R; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Moss, M I; Motubatse-
Hounkpatin, S D; Mpaka, H M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N;
Mzondeki, M J G; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N
M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T;
Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngema, M V; Ngiba, B C; Ngwenya, M L;
Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkuna, C; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, S H;
Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, S B; Nxumalo, M D; Nzimande, L
P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Padayachie, R L; Pahad, A G H;
Pahad, E G; Pandor, G N M; Phadagi, M G; Phungula, J P; Pule, B E ;
Rabinowitz, R; Radebe, B A; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin,
M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C P M; Ramphele, T D H; Rasmeni, S M;
Reid, L R R; Roopnarain, U; Saloojee, E; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E A;
Seaton, S A; Sefularo, M; Sekgobela, P S; September , C C; Sibande, M P;
Sibanyoni, J B; Sibuyana, M W; Sigcau, Sylvia N; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu,
L N; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, P F; Smith , V
G; Solomon, G; Sonto, M R; Sotyu, M M; Stofile, M A; Surty, M E;
Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Tshabalala-
Msimang, M E; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P
Z; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Wyk, Annelizé; Vos, S C;
Vundisa, S S; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M ; Yengeni, L L; Zita, L; Zulu, B
Z ; Zulu, N E.


NOES-56: Blanché, J P I; Boinamo, G G; Camerer, S M; Coetzee, R;
Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Ellis,
M J; Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M; Gore, V C; Green, L M; Greyling, L W;
Groenewald, P J; Haasbroek, S F; Henderson, R K; Jankielsohn, R; Kalyan,
S V; King, R J; Kohler-Barnard, D; Labuschagne, L B; Leon, A J; Lowe, C
M; Madasa, Z L; Maluleke, D K; Masango, S J; Meshoe, K R J; Minnie, K J;
Morgan, G R; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Nkem-Abonta, E;
Ntuli, R S; Opperman, S E; Rabie, P J; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Schmidt, H C;
Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Smuts, M; Stephens, M; Steyn, A C; Swart, M;
Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Swathe, M M; Trent, E W; Van der Walt, D; Van
Dyk, S M; Van Niekerk, A I; Waters, M; Weber, H; Zille, H.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 17 – Labour – put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr C M LOWE: Chairperson, the DA applauded when President Mbeki made it clear in his state of the nation address that government was putting employment at the centre of its vision. The job crisis is our country’s greatest challenge. We have repeatedly asked that it should receive urgent and direct attention, and we have supported the ANC when they pledged to do something to put South Africa back to work. But the ANC has failed to respond whilst President Mbeki has vacillated and changed his mind over much-needed changes to the labour laws, particularly those that affect small businesses.

The growing crisis in our country has started to burn in recent days, as thousands of angry citizens have taken to the streets, demanding service delivery and the jobs that have been promised. About 11 years into our democracy, more than 8 million people - 40% of the workforce – are without work. Whether the unemployment rate is 27%, 40% or whatever Minister Manuel thinks it is or whatever President Mbeki decrees it is, is of little consequence and of no relevance to a man or woman who cannot find work. They are 100% unemployed.

The mining sector and the clothing and textile industries in particular have all endured brutal job cuts and face even more. Yet, still government fails to make job creation its number one priority. President Mbeki has spoken repeatedly about bridging the gap between the formal and informal economies. He set out on a high road in his state of the nation address but he has simply failed to follow through. Instead of fighting poverty and creating work, the ANC has succeeded in creating poverty and fighting work.

As long as they fail to look outside the magic circle of those lucky enough to have a job, the DA has no choice but to oppose the labour budget. Our national job crisis is heading for a freefall. Thousands are marching, burning tyres and barricading the streets. The ANC needs a plan and the political will to tackle the beast. They need to do so now. Thank you. [Applause.]

Prince N E ZULU: Chairperson, the IFP will support this Vote but has to note the following: Without full employment of all the factors of production, the scarcity of jobs in the country will remain a glaring phenomenon in the foreseeable future - one that will turn out to be a mirage beyond our reach.

This is not a challenge to the Department of Labour alone, but a responsibility of all the departments that hold those factors of production. One speaker in recent days proposed in this Chamber that an economic Codesa, in this respect, was necessary. Therefore let the economic sector in South Africa give him the necessary support.

Mnr W D SPIES: Agb Voorsitter, ek dink almal van ons stem saam dat werkloosheid die grootste probleem is en dit is ook dikwels gesê. Die probleem is dat ons toenemend die indruk kry dat die prioriteit op die oomblik nie noodwendig soseer by die skep van nuwe werksgeleenthede en die ontwikkeling van vaardighede is nie, maar eerder op ’n herverdeling van bestaande werksgeleenthede. Ons probleem daarmee is dat bestaande armoede daardeur herverdeel word, terwyl welvaart nog steeds buite meeste mense se bereik bly.

Die gelyke indiensnemingskommissie fokus in sy navorsing op slegs daardie 10% van die werksmag, waar wittes oorverteenwoordig is, maar geen vinger word verroer om die 50% van die werksmag waar wittes onverteenwoordig is, meer toeganklik te maak nie. Terwyl die Minister ons die versekering gegee het in sy repliek dat regstellende aksie nie net oor wit en swart gaan nie, moes ons vanoggend van die gelyke indiensnemingskommissie hoor dat die sogenaamde Kleurlinggemeenskap vandag slegter daaraan toe is as drie jaar gelede. Ons moet ook hoor dat gestremde persone nog steeds op grond van ras beoordeel word, al is daar ook teen hulle in die verlede gediskrimineer. Om hierdie redes kan die VF nie die betrokke begrotingspos ondersteun nie. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr W D SPIES: Hon Chairperson, I think we all agree that unemployment is the biggest problem and this has been said often. The problem is that we increasingly get the impression that currently the creation of new job opportunities and the development of skills is not the biggest priority, but rather the redistribution of existing job opportunities. Our problem with that is that in this way existing poverty is being redistributed, while welfare remains out of most people’s reach.

In its research the Commission for Employment Equity focuses on only the 10% of the labour force where white people are over represented, but nothing is being done to make the 50% of the labour force where whites are not represented at all more accessible. While the Minister assured us in his reply that affirmative action is not only about black and white, we had to hear from the Commission for Employment Equity this morning that the so- called coloured community is worse off today than they were three years ago. We also had to hear that people with disabilities are still being assessed on the grounds of race, even though they were also discriminated against in the past. For these reasons the FF Plus cannot support the relevant Budget Vote.]

Mr M T LIKOTSI: Chairperson, 11 years after our democracy, the transformation of the workplace remains one of the key challenges facing our country. Although the Employment Equity Act has been passed, we got the report today that its implementation is not satisfactory. The representation, in terms of those who have historically been excluded and also in gender terms, remains far below expectations.

We believe that the failure to implement the Employment Equity Act is not a result of ignorance but rather a resistance to change. We believe that the department should start to change its language from gently nudging those who resist change to an iron-fist approach. [Laughter.]

We also want to agree with those who say that unemployment is one of our greatest challenges. The reason for this unemployment is, unfortunately, not government but big capital. Those who are the beneficiaries of the historic compromises at Kempton Park have not reciprocated. We want to say to the rich: Share your riches with the poor or they will share their poverty with you. [Laughter.] [Applause.]

Ms S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, the MF will definitely support all improvements and the delivery that the government is making in this country. Whilst supporting this budget, the concern expressed by the MF is to find ways, in whichever way the government can, to cut down on imports and increase exports of South African products in order to increase employment. Thank you.

Ms O R KASIENYANE: Chairperson, the ANC supports this Budget Vote and it will vote in favour thereof. This is a good budget that will enable us to continue the important transformation needed in the labour market. We note the objections raised by the DA, IFP and FF Plus. We further advise them that they should come and raise those objections in the portfolio committee meetings where they can be discussed.

The Department of Labour performed tremendously well in the past year and continues to do so under the able leadership of the hon Membathisi Mdladlana. Both the department and the International Labour Organisation, ILO, investigated the call by the DA to relax the law regarding small businesses and the issue of inflexibility in the labour market. The laws were found to be reasonable and flexible.

Small businesses can apply for exemptions in their own right if they so wish. The DA will not win anything for them. [Interjections.] Don’t worry, we are on course and committed to raise the standard of living, and quality of social and working life of our people in South Africa. We are being guided by the historic document of our struggle, the people’s charter, which was adopted half a century ago.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member, your time has expired.

Ms O R KASIENYANE: We are on course. The ANC supports this Budget Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]

Dr C P MULDER: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order. I have noticed that the ANC has so far supported each and every one of these Votes. The Rules make provision that every party should be entitled to speak. Don’t you think it’s only fair that, specifically with regard to labour, we at least give Cosatu a chance to address the House? [Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): I do not know the Afrikaans word for “frivolous”, otherwise I would have used it.

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES-246: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Balfour, B
M N; Bekker, H J; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, M J;
Bhengu, P; Biyela, B P ; Bloem, D V; Blose, H M; Bogopane-Zulu, H I;
Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Cachalia, I M; Carrim, Y I;
Chang, E S; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan-Khota, F I; Combrinck, J
J; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H;
Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Direko, I W; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dodovu, T S; du
Toit, D C ; Dudley, C; Erwin, A; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Fubbs
, J L; Gabela, L S; Gcwabaza, N E ; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K
M N; Gillwald, C E ; Godi, N T; Gololo, C L; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T;
Gore, V C; Green, L M; Greyling, C H F; Greyling, L W; Gumede, D M ;
Gumede, M M; Gxowa, N B; Hanekom, D A; Hendricks, L B; Hendrickse, P;
Herandien, C B; Hogan, B A; Huang, S; Jacobus, L ; Jeffery, J H; Joemat,
R R; Johnson, C B; Johnson, M; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kasienyane, O
R; Kati, Z J; Kekana, C D; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, K M;
Khunou, N P; Kondlo, N C; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Landers, L T;
Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K;
Ludwabe, C I; Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Mabudafhasi, T R;
Mabuyakhulu, D V; Madasa, Z L; Madlala-Routledge, N C; Maduma , L D;
Madumise, M M; Magau, K R; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E ; Magwanishe, G B;
Mahlawe, N M; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Makgate, M
W; Malahlela, M J; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleka, H P; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-
Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Mashangoane, P R; Mashiane, L M; Mashigo,
R J; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F;
Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbombo, N D; Mdladlana, M M S;
Meruti, M V; Meshoe, K R J; Mkhize, Z S; Mkongi, B M; Mlangeni, A;
Mnandi, P N; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnguni, B A; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L
J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mokoena, A D;
Mokoto, N R; Molefe, C T; Moleketi, P J; Moloto, K A; Monareng, O E;
Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morutoa, M R; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Moss,
M I; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpaka, H M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B;
Mthethwa, E N; Mzondeki, M J G; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A;
Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D;
Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngema, M V; Ngiba, B C; Ngwenya,
M L; Nhlengethwa, D G; Nkuna, C; Nogumla, R Z; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, S
H; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, S B; Nxumalo, M D;
Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Padayachie, R L Pahad, A
G H; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Phungula, J P; Pule, B E ; Radebe, B A;
Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M;
Ramotsamai, C P M; Ramphele, T D H; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R;
Roopnarain, U; Saloojee, E; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E A; Seaton, S A;
Sefularo, M; Sekgobela, P S; September , C C; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibuyana,
M W; Sigcau, Sylvia N; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Skhosana, W M;
Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, P F; Smith , V G; Sonto, M R;
Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Stephens, M; Stofile, M A; Surty, M E;
Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tinto, B; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L;
Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Vadi, I; Van den
Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Wyk,
Annelizé; Vezi, T E; Vos, S C; Vundisa, S S; Wang, Y; Woods, G G;
Xingwana, L M ; Yengeni, L L; Zita, L; Zulu, B Z ; Zulu, N E.


NOES-48: Blanché, J P I; Boinamo, G G; Camerer, S M; Coetzee, R;
Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Ellis, M J;
Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M; Groenewald, P J; Haasbroek, S F; Henderson,
R K; Jankielsohn, R; Kalyan, S V; King, R J; Kohler-Barnard, D; Leon, A
J; Lowe, C M; Maluleke, D K; Masango, S J; Minnie, K J; Morgan, G R;
Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Nkem-Abonta, E; Ntuli, R S;
Opperman, S E; Rabie, P J; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J;
Semple, J A; Smuts, M; Spies, W D; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swart, P S;
Swathe, M M; Trent, E W; van der Walt, D; van Dyk, S M; Van Niekerk, A
I; Waters, M; Weber, H; Zille, H.


ABSTAIN-1: Zikalala, C N Z.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 18 – Social Development - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr M WATERS: Chair and hon Ministers, and may I compliment you on your t- shirt today, Chair. It is a great day for press freedom and for freedom of speech.

Job creation is the only vehicle that will eradicate poverty. In the light of large-scale poverty, largely caused by inflexible labour laws, the DA understands that social grants bring much-needed relief to the poorest of the poor.

The ANC government is failing to provide the child support grant to an estimated 3 million children between the ages of 14 and 18, of whom 2,5 million are living in dire poverty. The DA calls on the ANC to extend the child support grant to all children.

In addition, the government has refused to introduce the basic income grant of R110 per month. The basic income grant would close the poverty gap by 74% and effectively reach the millions of South Africans in the poorest households currently not receiving, even indirectly, any form of social grant. It would also help tackle the fraudulent applications for disability grants. The DA calls on the government to assist the 8 million unemployed South Africans by introducing the basic income grant.

The manner in which subsidies to NGOs were slashed without any consultation or proper communication is insensitive and suggests a chaotic bureaucracy that discriminates against some NGOs. Vague and arbitrary requirements imposed on NGOs seeking funding suggest that the government is acting in a partisan manner and does not care about the harm and suffering that is being caused to the most vulnerable in our society, and that is the aged and the mentally and physically disabled.

The DA will vote against the Social Development budget because this department and government are failing millions of destitute South Africans. Thank you, Chair. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Does the IFP have a declaration?

Mr M V NGEMA: Chair, the IFP will support the Vote but wishes to make the following important point. There are many children suffering from or affected by HIV and Aids and who are being orphaned as a result of this disease.

Community-based organisations have a key role to play in identifying these vulnerable children and assisting with their various needs. The IFP therefore believes that additional funding should be made available to these organisations so as to empower them to assist these children.

Mrs C DUDLEY: Chair, the ACDP will vote in favour of this Budget Vote and acknowledges the concerted effort being made to address the issue of poverty and to provide protection for the vulnerable in our society.

Last year the ACDP called on the Minister to expand links with faith-based organisations that are well placed and have the human resources necessary to identify needs and channel relevant support. We are encouraged by the Minister’s response in doing just that.

The ACDP’s main concern, however, is welfare services and the fact that decisions regarding funding are taken arbitrarily. I say this because the department presently has no idea what its direct responsibility actually entails and continues to ignore calls for a costing analysis to be done. A proper audit of sector responsibilities must be done or the guessing will continue and services will continue to fall far short of what is needed.

The nonprofit child protection agencies which government relies on to render these services are underresourced and stretch beyond capacity and the child protection system is in grave danger of collapsing under this strain. About 85% of the work done by NGOs is statutory and not even 50% is subsidised by government.

As the situation is now NGOs are in fact subsidising government and not the other way round. Yes, there is a new policy on NGO funding but the reality is that this policy is no different from the previous ones, which have called for written input from stakeholders.

Government talks of a partnership but without a proper consultative process there can be no real partnership. Surely, those who actually do the work and know what it entails should be consulted seriously. In addition, government’s focus on prevention rather than problem-based work may be a worthy goal but it ignores the reality of our situation. It is impossible to focus on preventative work when rooms are flooded with abandoned, raped and abused children and there are no staff members to help them.

Child-protection weeks and days of activism, with the best intentions in the world, will not deliver the help women and children in crisis need. The job will not get done without social workers.

Ms S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, the MF will support this Budget Vote with certain concerns and would appreciate it if the child support grant were increased to the age of 18 years and a review on the state pension grant was made.

Mr T M MASUTHA: Chair, I rise on behalf of the ANC to express our unequivocal support for this Budget Vote which comprises some of the most effective measures aimed at rolling back the frontiers of poverty.

Over 10 million of the poorest of our community members, namely children, the elderly and persons with disabilities, currently benefit from the monthly payments of social grants that sustain them and shield them from abject poverty because this government cares.

Programmes aimed at addressing the plight of poor families and communities such as poverty relief programmes as well as interventions such as home- based care for the terminally ill and persons living with HIV and Aids, as well as social programmes aimed at assisting victims of violence particularly domestic violence, abandoned and abused children, victims of substance abuse and others, make it possible for those in great need to enjoy a quality of life that is equal to the rest of us.

This government cares because it is a government by the people, with the people and for the people. Let us not be distracted from the main issues before us by prophets of doom such as the DA, which has never had the concerns of the poor at the centre of their policies and objectives, and focus on the real challenges which confront our nation and our people, namely, to uproot corruption, to uproot abuses in the system and to ensure that our people have full access to the benefits that they are entitled to, which government provides.

I thank you. [Applause.]

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES-239: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya, S
E; Balfour, B M N; Bekker, H J; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhamjee, Y S;
Bhengu, F; Bhengu, M J; Bhengu, P; Biyela, B P ; Bloem, D V; Blose, H M;
Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Cachalia, I
M; Carrim, Y I; Chang, E S; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan-Khota, F
I; Combrinck, J J; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Davies, R H;
De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Direko, I W; Ditshetelo, P H K;
Dodovu, T S; du Toit, D C; Dudley, C; Erwin, A; Fihla, N B; Fraser-
Moleketi, G J; Fubbs , J L; Gabela, L S; Gcwabaza, N E ; George, M E;
Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gillwald, C E ; Godi, N T; Gololo, C L;
Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Gore, V C; Green, L M; Greyling, C H F;
Greyling, L W; Gumede, D M ; Gumede, M M; Gxowa, N B; Hanekom, D A;
Hendrickse, P; Herandien, C B; Hogan, B A; Huang, S; Jacobus, L ;
Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Johnson, C B; Johnson, M; Jordan, Z P;
Joubert, L K; Kalako, M U; Kasienyane, O R; Kati, Z J; Kekana, C D;
Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P; Kondlo, N C;
Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S;
Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Mabandla, B S; Mabe,
L L; Mabena, D C; Mabudafhasi, T R; Mabuyakhulu, D V; Madasa, Z L;
Madlala-Routledge, N C; Maduma , L D; Madumise, M M; Magau, K R; Magazi,
M N; Magubane, N E ; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlawe, N M; Mahote, S; Maine, M
S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Makgate, M W; Malahlela, M J; Maloyi, P D N;
Maluleka, H P; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D;
Mashangoane, P R; Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P
M; Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M H; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M;
Maziya, A M; Mbombo, N D; Mdladlana, M M S; Meruti, M V; Meshoe, K R J;
Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mkongi, B M; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N;
Mngomezulu, G P; Mnguni, B A; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng,
T R; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mokoto, N R; Molefe, C T;
Moleketi, P J; Moloto, K A; Monareng, O E; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K;
Morutoa, M R; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Moss M I; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S
D; Mpaka, H M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mzondeki, M J
G; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-
Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N;
Ngele, N J; Ngema, M V; Ngiba, B C; Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P ; Nkuna,
C; Nogumla, R Z; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R;
Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, S B; Nxumalo, M D; Nzimande, L P M; Oliphant, G G;
Padayachie, R L; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Phungula, J P;
Pieterse, R D; Pule, B E ; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin,
M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C P M; Ramphele, T D H; Rasmeni, S M;
Reid, L R R; Roopnarain, U; Saloojee, E; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E A;
Seaton, S A; Sefularo, M; Sekgobela, P S; September , C C; Sibanyoni, J
B; Sibuyana, M W; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M
B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, P F; Smith , V G; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E;
Sotyu, M M; Stofile, M A; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J;
Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der
Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Wyk, Annelizé; Vos, S C; Vundisa, S
S; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M ; Yengeni, L L; Zikalala, C N Z; Zita, L;
Zulu, N E.
NOES-46: Blanché, J P I; Camerer, S M; Coetzee, R; Davidson, I O;
Delport, J T; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gibson,
D H M; Groenewald, P J; Haasbroek, S F; Henderson, R K; Jankielsohn, R;
Kalyan, S V; King, R J; Kohler-Barnard, D; Labuschagne, L B; Leon, A J;
Lowe, C M; Maluleke, D K; Masango, S J; Minnie, K J; Morgan, G R;
Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Nkem-Abonta, E; Ntuli, R S;
Opperman, S E; Rabie, P J; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J;
Smuts, M; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swart, P S; Swathe, M M; Trent, E W; Van
der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M; Van Niekerk, A I; Waters, M; Weber, H; Zille,
H.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 19 - Sports and Recreation – put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr S J MASANGO: Chairperson, South Africa’s sports administrators cannot do their job under ANC control. [Interjections.] The ANC’s political programme of transformation runs contrary to the very purpose of sports which is to bring people together, not to divide them . . . [Interjections.] . . . to celebrate merit, not to undermine it. Under the ANC, merit has been replaced by race, quotas have replaced development, and independence has been substituted with a political agenda.

The ANC’s desire to enforce racial quotas on every level of our society has now produced a situation where our sports administrators answer not to the sportsmen or sportswomen of our country, but to the Minister of Sport. The result is that standards have dropped. Our administration and institutions are weakened, and sport has become a political battlefield.

Instead of promoting, training and supporting the youth, the government’s energy is wasted on racial engineering and political control. South African sports belong to the people, not the ANC. The DA does not support this Budget Vote. [Applause.]

Ms S RAJBALLY: The MF supports this Vote, bearing in mind that more sports and recreation facilities and infrastructure need to be created in the schools, and especially in our rural areas. Thank you.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: The ANC supports the Budget Vote. We are very happy, Minister, with the way sport is going in the country. We are going to stick to our guns in terms of the question of transformation. We want representivity in our sports teams. We are going in the right direction.

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES-238: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Asiya, S E; Balfour, B M
N; Bekker, H J; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhamjee, Y S; Bhengu, F;
Bhengu, M J; Bhengu, P; Biyela, B P ; Bloem, D V; Blose, H M; Bogopane-
Zulu, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Cachalia, I M;
Carrim, Y I; Chang, E S; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan-Khota, F I;
Combrinck, J J; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H;
Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Direko, I W; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dodovu, T S; du
Toit, D C ; Dudley, C; Erwin, A; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Fubbs
, J L; Gabela, L S; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gillwald, C
E ; Godi, N T; Gololo, C L; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Gore, V C; Green,
L M; Greyling, C H F; Greyling, L W; Gumede, D M ; Gumede, M M; Gxowa, N
B; Hanekom, D A; Hendricks, L B; Herandien, C B; Hogan, B A; Huang, S;
Jacobus, L ; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Johnson, C B; Johnson, M;
Jordan, Z P; Joubert, L K; Kalako, M U; Kasienyane, O R; Kati, Z J;
Kekana, C D; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P;
Kondlo, N C; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K;
Lekgoro, M M S; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I;
Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Mabudafhasi, T R; Mabuyakhulu, D
V; Madasa, Z L; Madlala-Routledge, N C; Maduma , L D; Madumise, M M;
Magau, K R; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E ; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlawe, N M;
Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Makgate, M W; Malahlela,
M J; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleka, H P; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N;
Martins, B A D; Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P M;
Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M H; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M;
Maziya, A M; Mbombo, N D; Mdladlana, M M S; Meruti, M V; Meshoe, K R J;
Mfundisi, IS; Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mkongi, B M; Mnandi, P N;
Mngomezulu, G P; Mnguni, B A; Moatshe, M S; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, O M;
Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mokoena, A D; Mokoto, N R; Molefe, C T;
Moleketi, P J; Moloto, K A; Monareng, O E; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K;
Morutoa, M R; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Moss, M I; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S
D; Mpaka, H M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mzondeki, M J
G; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-
Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N;
Ngele, N J; Ngema, M V; Ngiba, B C; Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P ; Nkuna,
C; Nogumla, R Z; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R;
Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, S B; Nxumalo, M D; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A;
Oliphant, G G; Padayachie, R L; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Phungula, J P;
Pieterse, R D; Pule, B E ; Radebe, B A; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M
M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C P M; Ramphele, T D H;
Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Roopnarain, U; Saloojee, E; Schneemann, G D;
Schoeman, E A; Seaton, S A; Sefularo, M; Sekgobela, P S; September , C
C; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibuyana, M W; Sikakane, M R; Skhosana, W M; Skosana,
M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, P F; Smith , V G; Solo, B M; Sonto, M R;
Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Stofile, M A; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tinto,
B; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P;
Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C;
Van Wyk, Annelizé; Vos, S C; Vundisa, S S; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M ;
Yengeni, L L; Zikalala, C N Z; Zita, L; Zulu, N E.


NOES-47: Blanché, J P I; Camerer, S M; Coetzee, R; Davidson, I O;
Delport, J T; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gibson,
D H M; Groenewald, P J; Haasbroek, S F; Henderson, R K; Jankielsohn, R;
Kalyan, S V; King, R J; Kohler-Barnard, D; Labuschagne, L B; Lowe, C M;
Maluleke, D K; Masango, S J; Minnie, K J; Morgan, G R; Mulder, C P;
Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Nkem-Abonta, E; Ntuli, R S; Opperman, S E;
Rabie, P J; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Semple, J A;
Smuts, M; Spies, W D; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swart, P S; Swathe, M M;
Trent, E W; Van der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M; Van Niekerk, A I; Waters, M;
Weber, H; Zille, H.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 20 - Correctional Services – put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr J SELFE: Chairperson, the Minister of Correctional Services has been in office for 13 months. He has not yet solved a number of challenges facing the department, such as the large number of acting and unfilled posts, and there have been some shocking breaches of security, some of which we heard about at the portfolio committee only this morning.

However, there have been many achievements that we not only support, but actually indeed applaud. These include staring down the unions, finalising the White Paper on Corrections, establishing centres of excellence, and placing rehabilitation at the centre of the activities of his department. Yet it is a fact that the rehabilitation of offenders is impossible in grossly overcrowded facilities, and the vast majority of correctional centres are hopelessly overcrowded.

As I have stated already this afternoon, the real cause of overcrowding lies in the 51 000 awaiting-trial detainees held in our prisons. Instead of dealing with this problem, the Minister proposes to relieve overcrowding by granting a special remission of sentences. As I have said, this step is well intentioned, but misdirected. All we will be doing is releasing sentenced prisoners to make way for awaiting-trial prisoners.

For these reasons, we will not be supporting this Vote.

Mrs S A SEATON: Madam Chair and hon members, we are really concerned that inadequate funds are being made available to the Department of Correctional Services to bring about real and meaningful change to the department.

The IFP could cast its vote against the Budget Vote. But that is not going to help. That is going to impact on an already negative situation. So, we therefore will support the Vote, because if we were to oppose it, we would be creating more of a problem with regard to overcrowding and rehabilitation.

Correctional Services is at the receiving end of the justice delivery system, and must cater for those whose passage through the criminal justice system is blocked at the point where crime is investigated and processed through the courts. Changes need to be made throughout the justice delivery system, and funds need to be sought to bring about substantial and noticeable change in as short a time as possible for all departments within the justice delivery system.

We hope that Minister Manuel is listening and will make those additional funds available to the justice delivery system that we are going to need to be able to sort out the system. [Interjections.] Perhaps you should come and visit our prisons with us, Minister Manuel. Thank you.

Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, section 36 of the Correctional Services Act states that with ``due regard to the fact that the deprivation of liberty serves the purposes of punishment, the implementation of a sentence of imprisonment has the objective of enabling a sentenced prisoner to lead a socially responsible and crime-free life in the future’’.

Our problem, hon Minister, is that insufficient funds are available for rehabilitation. There is a lack of staff and overcrowding. We believe that more social workers and psychologists should be employed, and as you have pointed out earlier, the solution to overcrowding, as previous speakers have indicated, lies in the huge awaiting-trial prisoner population, as opposed to the special remission of sentences that we believe undermines the criminal justice sector.

It is ludicrous that there are approximately 14 000 awaiting-trial prisoners who are not a danger to society but who cannot afford bail ranging from R50 upwards, and who are costing the state R114 per day. The ACDP believes that section 63(a) and section 62(f) of the Criminal Procedure Act are not being correctly or sufficiently implemented to release these awaiting-trial prisoners.

We also believe that the long-outstanding Child Justice Bill should be given urgent attention. This, as you are aware, would seek to introduce innovative restorative justice principles and keep juveniles who are not a danger to society out of prison. Hon Minister, you indicated in your last Budget Vote that you would be raising this matter with the security cluster, but to date this has not been done. Unfortunately, the ACDP will not be able to support this Budget Vote. I thank you.

Mnr D V BLOEM: Minister, moenie die mense kop toe vat nie, want jy as Minister het al baie gelewer.

Hier is ‘n Witskrif van die departement. Ek weet nie of die DA die boek gelees het nie. Julle moet dit lees, mnr Selfe, want daar is vordering in die departement. Daar is net ‘n blink toekoms voor vir hierdie departement onder die leierskap van Minister Balfour en Kommisaris Mti. Dit is die eerste keer in die geskiedenis dat ons ‘n sakboek het om mee op en af te loop.

Ntate Mlangeni, jy was ‘n ou bandiet, en jy het dit nog nooit geweet. [Gelag.] Minister Manuel, Mev Seaton sê jy moet die tronke gaan besoek, maar vertel haar van manje manje, hona jwale, khona manje.

Hy weet van die tronke. Hy is nie ‘n vreemdeling aan die tronke nie. Hy is ‘n Minister van Finansies vandag, maar hy weet wat binne in die tronke aangaan. As ons sê, Manje, manje, ‘n hek asseblief.’’ Hy weet wat is’n hek asseblief.’’ Hy is nie ‘n “stranger” aan dit nie.

Daar is ‘n ou mens. Hy het nie eens geweet wat ‘n Witskrif is nie toe hy 27 jaar in die gevangenis gesit het nie. Hier is dit sodat ons kan op en af loop . . . Ntate Mlangeni, ek gaan jou hierdie een gee sodat jy op en af kan loop met dit in jou binnesak. En as enigeen jou vra wat in die tronke aangaan deesdae, dan moet jy sê, ``Hier is die Witskrif. Hier is die ding waarvolgens ons tronke deesdae gelei moet word. Niemand kan mishandel word in ons tronke nie.’’

Ons het boeke, ons het regulasies. Ons het als wat ‘n gevangene moet weet. Hierdie boek is in die hande van enige gevangene. Almal van hulle het dit.

In die verlede, was hierdie boek verbode. Ons het toe nie eens so ‘n boek gehad nie. Dit was verbode. Jy mag ook nie eers geweet het wat jou regte in die tronk was nie. Vandag weet hulle wat hulle regte is in die tronk. Hierdie mense weet nie hoe ‘n tronk binnekant lyk nie. [Tyd verstreke.] [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr D V BLOEM: Minister, do not take any notice of these people, because as Minister you have contributed a lot.

Here is a White Paper of the department. I do not know whether the DA has read the book. You should read it, Mr Selfe, because there is progress in the department. There awaits only a bright future for this department under the leadership of Minister Balfour and Commissioner Mti. It is the first time in history that we have a pocket book to parade around with.

Mr Mlangeni, you were an old convict and you never knew it. [Laughter.] Minister Manuel, Mrs Seaton says that you should visit the prisons, but tell her about ‘manje manje, hona jwale, khona manje’ [‘now, now, right now, right now’].

He knows about prisons. He is not a stranger to prisons. He is Minister of Finance today, but he knows what happens in prisons. When we say, “Manje manje, ‘n hek asseblief.” [Now, now, wait your turn]; he knows what “’n hek asseblief” [wait your turn] means. He is not a stranger to it.

Now there is an old person. While he was in prison for 27 years, he did not even know what a White Paper was. Here it is; so that we can parade up and down . . . Mr Mlangeni, I am going to give you this one; so that you can parade up and down with it in your pocket. And if anyone should ask what happens in prisons nowadays, then you must say, “Here is the White Paper. Here is the book according to which our prisons must be managed nowadays. Nobody can be abused in our prisons.”

We have books. We have regulations. We have everything that a prisoner should know. This book is in the hands of any prisoner. Everybody has one.

This book was prohibited in the past. In those days we did not have such a book. It was prohibited. You were also not allowed to know what your rights were in prison. They know what their rights are in prison today. These people do not know what a prison looks like on the inside. [Time expired.] [Applause.]]

Ms S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, the MF supports the Vote with an appeal to the Minister to utilise funds effectively in rehabilitation programmes in the prisons so that more offenders can be released to overcome the overcrowding in the prisons. Thank you.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon members, I will now arrange for an early release for all of you. Ten minutes. The bells will ring for five minutes.

Business suspended at 16:51 and resumed at 17:02.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S BOTHA): Please be seated.

Vote No 21 – Defence – put.

Declarations of vote:

Moulana M R SAYEDALI-SHAH: Deputy Chairperson, the recent protests across the country against the government’s poor record on service delivery have served as a timely reminder that poverty and unemployment constitute the most serious security threat to our country. There is therefore a moral imperative on the government to ensure that before it commits billions of rand to defence spending these priorities are carefully considered. It appears in this regard that the government has not learnt from the costly mistakes of the first arms deal, the burden of which we continue to labour under today. Not only does ill-conceived defence expenditure continue to prevent pressing social expenditure, the misplaced priorities of the defence budget itself have left the Defence Force in a precarious position.

The operational capacity of the SANDF is fundamentally compromised as in many instances it lacks the necessary infrastructure, personnel and expertise to properly integrate and operate many of the weapons acquired. In this context it seems extraordinary that the government has committed itself to spending billions more on a second arms deal. The A400M Deal has been concluded in virtual secrecy, has bypassed Parliament and has been presented to the nation as a fait accompli without any debate.

This is indicative of a government which is failing in its constitutional obligation to ensure that any procurement of this magnitude is conducted in an open and transparent fashion. Until the many operational shortcomings that currently beset the SANDF are properly dealt with, the DA cannot support the defence budget. You gave us Armsgate, you gave us Travelgate, you gave us Oilgate and you cannot be the keepers of Moralgate. [Applause.]

Adv Z L MADASA: With the larger involvement in Africa of the Defence Force, clearly the budget currently presented is insufficient. Therefore, taking into account the pressing needs, domestic needs in respect of social services, clearly it is going to be controversial to increase the budget, even though it is necessary to do so. I would want to call upon the Minister of Defence and the Deputy Minister to increase the tempo of the formation of the standby force in the continent so that the burden of peacekeeping is shared by all countries involved.

One of the areas of concern is that the Northern African region has not even began to discuss the formation of this standby force. We ask the Ministry of Defence therefore to attend to this matter urgently. Thank you. Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Geagte Voorsitter, op 14 Februarie 2003 kondig die agb President aan dat die kommandostelsel in Suid-Afrika uitgefaseer gaan word. [Tussenwerpsels.] Ja, u kan maar kla en te kere gaan, maar die feit van die saak is dat dit ook baie duidelik is dat baie agb lede hier nie weet van die goeie werk wat die kommando’s gedoen het nie, soos byvoorbeeld in 2002 toe hulle die agb ANC-lede opgepas het tydens hulle konferensie in Stellenbosch. Dit was die kommandolede wat u beskerm het. Die belofte is gemaak dat daar met die uitfasering van kommando’s nie ’n leemte sal ontstaan in die veiligheidsituasie nie. Pas is daar ’n lys van 55 kommando- eenhede bekend gemaak wat in hierdie finansiële jaar moet sluit.

As ons kyk na die Durban-Suid kommando, is hierdie kommando op die oomblik verantwoordelik vir die beskerming van vyf nasionale sleutelpunte in Durban. In Pretoria is die Broederstroomkommando verantwoordelik vir die beskerming van die nasionale sleutelpunt naamlik Pelindaba. Agb Minister, as hierdie kommando sluit, dan gaan daar beslis ’n leemte ontstaan in die veiligheidsituasie. Twee maande gelede het die Klerksdorpkommando ’n kardinale rol gespeel tydens die aardbewing in Stilfontein. Die polisie het na vore getree en erken dat hulle nie die situasie kon hanteer het nie. Die vraag is: Wie gaan rampsituasies hanteer in die toekoms?

Alle lande ter wêreld het ’n bepaalde reserwemag wat ook ’n tipe van territoriale reserwemag insluit. Daarom wil ons ook van die VF Plus se kant vir u sê: Die besluit om die kommando’s te sluit en die wyse waarop dit gedoen word, is onverantwoordelik. Dit skep ’n leemte in die veiligheidsituasie en daarom sal die VF Plus nie hierdie begrotingspos ondersteun nie. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, on 14 February 2003 the hon President announced that the commando system in South Africa would be phased out. [Interjections.] Yes, you may moan and carry on, but the fact of the matter is that it is also evident that many hon members here are not aware of the good work that was done by the commandos, for instance when they guarded the hon ANC members during their conference in Stellenbosch in 2002. It was members of the commando who protected you. The promise was made that with the phasing out of the commandos there would not be a deficiency in the safety situation. Recently a list was released of 55 commando units that will have to close down in this financial year.

If we look at the Durban South Commando, this commando is currently responsible for five national key areas in Durban. In Pretoria the Broederstroom Commando is responsible for protecting the national key area of Pelindaba. Hon Minister, if this commando closes down there will definitely be a deficiency in the safety situation. Two months ago the Klerksdorp Commando played a crucial role at the time of the earthquake in Stilfontein. The police came forward and acknowledged that they were not able to handle the situation. The question is: Who is going to handle disaster situations in future?

All the countries in the world have specific reserve forces that include a type of territorial reserve force. That is why the FF Plus for its part wants to tell you that the decision to close down the commandos and the manner in which it is being done is irresponsible. It creates a deficiency in the safety situation and for this reason the FF Plus cannot support this Budget Vote.]

Mr S B NTULI: Madam Chairperson, the ANC supports this Vote. There has been progress in relation to the transformation of the SA National Defence Force, especially since its inception in 1994. This budget will also then enhance some of the work that is still outstanding especially at some levels of some of the arms of the service.

On civil military relations, the Department of Defence has conducted itself well in line with the requirements of the Constitution. The culture of transparency started by former Minister Joe Modise in Defence is continuing, characterised by the recent public hearings, with regard to the Defence Review, the Defence White Paper and the White Paper on Defence Update Process.

We have noted the integration process and its challenges. The role of peacekeeping is continuing. Our defence force remains combat ready and we are proud of the work that they have done so far. We also envisage that the Budget Vote will enable the DOD to strengthen the SANDF by finding an appropriate exit mechanism and the provision of the service core. All these would be entrusted to the SANDF under the newly appointed Chief of Defence. The ANC supports this Vote. [Applause.]

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES-237: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya, S
E; Balfour, B M N; Bapela, K O; Bekker, H J; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F;
Bhamjee, Y S; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, M J; Bhengu, P; Biyela, B P ; Bloem, D
V; Blose, H M; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M
G; Cachalia, I M; Chang, E S; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan-Khota,
F I; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H;
Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Direko, I W; Dodovu, T S; du Toit, D C ;
Dudley, C; Erwin, A; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Fubbs , J L;
Gabela, L S; Gcwabaza, N E ; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N;
Gillwald, C E ; Godi, N T; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Green, L M;
Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M ; Gumede, M M; Gxowa, N B; Hanekom, D A;
Hendricks, L B; Herandien, C B; Hogan, B A; Huang, S; Jacobus, L ;
Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Johnson, C B; Johnson, M; Joubert, L K;
Kalako, M U; Kasienyane, O R; Kati, Z J; Kekana, C D; Khoarai, L P;
Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P; Kondlo, N C; Koornhof, G W;
Kota, Z A; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lishivha, T E;
Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D
C; Mabudafhasi, T R; Mabuyakhulu, D V; Madasa, Z L; Madlala-Routledge, N
C; Maduma , L D; Madumise, M M; Magau, K R; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E ;
Magwanishe, G B; Mahlawe, N M; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi,
X C; Makgate, M W; Malahlela, M J; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleka, H P; Manuel,
T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J;
Masutha, T M; Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M H; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F;
Maunye, M M; Maziya, A M; Mbombo, N D; Mdladlana, M M S; Meruti, M V;
Meshoe, K R J; Mfundisi, IS; Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mkongi, B M;
Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnguni, B A; Moatshe, M S;
Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J;
Mokoena, A D; Mokoto, N R; Molefe, C T; Moloto, K A; Monareng, O E;
Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morutoa, M R; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Moss,
M I; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mshudulu S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N;
Mzondeki, M J G; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N
M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T;
Ngcobo, E N N; Ngema, M V; Ngiba, B C; Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P ;
Njobe, M A A; Nkuna, C; Nogumla, R Z; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, S H;
Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, S B; Nxumalo, M D; Nzimande, L P M;
Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Padayachie, R L; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M
G; Phungula, J P; Pieterse, R D; Pule, B E ; Rabinowitz, R; Radebe, B A;
Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C P M;
Ramphele, T D H; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Roopnarain, U; Schneemann, G
D; Schoeman, E A; Seaton, S A; Sefularo, M; Sekgobela, P S; September ,
C C; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibuyana, M W; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu,
L N; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, P F; Smith , V
G; Solo, B M; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Stofile, M A;
Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tinto, B; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L;
Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Turok, B; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z;
Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Wyk, Annelizé; Vezi, T E;
Vos, S C; Vundisa, S S; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M ; Yengeni, L L;
Zikalala, C N Z; Zita, L; Zulu, B Z ; Zulu, N E.


NOES-49: Blanché, J P I; Camerer, S M; Coetzee, R; Davidson, I O;
Delport, J T; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gibson,
D H M; Gore, V C; Greyling, L W; Groenewald, P J; Haasbroek, S F;
Henderson, R K; Jankielsohn, R; Kalyan, S V; King, R J; Kohler-Barnard,
D; Labuschagne, L B; Lowe, C M; Maluleke, D K; Masango, S J; Minnie, K
J; Morgan, G R; Mpaka, H M; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Nkem-
Abonta, E; Ntuli, R S; Opperman, S E; Rabie, P J; Sayedali-Shah, M R;
Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Smuts, M; Spies, W D; Steyn, A C;
Swart, M; Swart, P S; Swathe, M M; Trent, E W; Van der Walt, D; Van
Niekerk, A I; Waters, M; Weber, H; Zille, H.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 22 - Independent Complaints Directorate – put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr R JANKIELSOHN: Chairperson, misconduct and corruption in the SA Police Services are increasing. It is a serious indictment on the ANC government in that it is unwilling to tackle this issue effectively. The anticorruption unit was replaced by the Independent Complaints Directorate. Since then, however, the ICD have never been adequately resourced or insulated from the SA Police Services to do an effective job.

In the last financial year, deaths in police custody, other offences and misconduct, increased by an average of 33%. With only 70 cases investigated it is clear that the ICD is unable to deal with all cases of police misconduct and corruption. Where deaths in police custody occur, the ICD have to rely on the forensic and other support of the SA Police Services, the very people they are meant to investigate. Most rural areas have no investigators. The Free State and Northern Cape only have three investigators each.

This state of affairs is unacceptable and government has to indicate that it is serious about dealing with police corruption and misconduct by ensuring that the ICD is well resourced and independent from the SA Police Services. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr V B NDLOVU: A new proactive oversight unit has to be established in order to carry out targeted research and operations and cases analyses. As it has been done by the ICD, the monitoring of the implementation of the Domestic Violence Act is being done in order to improve the public’s confidence in the SAPS’ ability to deal with these cases. Is this continuing or not? According to the International Human Rights Report, South Africa is ranked very high on deaths in police cells. Has the ICD found this to be the truth of the matter or not?

The management of the ICD is not doing the devolution of powers to the provinces. But they fly all over the country especially from Pretoria to Cape Town to investigate the cases. Why is this, because the ICD has offices in all the provinces? The disciplinary measures are not implemented properly because even the director of the ICD has not yet known how to be disciplined. Thank you.

Ms M M SOTYU: Chairperson, the ANC supports Budget Vote No 22. We do recognise certain challenges that face the ICD at both national and provincial level. In his Budget Vote debate the Minister informed this House and the portfolio committee that he will be restructuring the ICD so as to ensure greater effectiveness and improve service delivery, especially at provincial level.

I am not surprised that the DA is against this budget. Hon Jankielsohn informed the portfolio committee that even if the ICD can do better they have a standing position within the party that they must oppose the ICD. [Interjections.] Today he stands here and says that the ICD is under- resourced and only yesterday we were discussing challenges facing the ICD together with a member of that party because hon Jankielsohn was not part of that meeting. No decisions will be taken unless Jankielsohn is saying that they must be taken. Thank you, Chairperson.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 23 – Justice and Constitutional Development – put.

Declarations of vote:

Mrs S M CAMERER: Chairperson, although some progress has been made to achieve access to justice, particularly for women and children, to use the words of the outgoing Director-General, Adv Vusi Pikoli, “not enough has been done to reduce crime and invest confidence in the justice system”.

The main problem is substantial underresourcing with the unfunded priorities this year totalling R2,6 billion. The unfunded amounts include most items, which would contribute towards transformation of the department and the judiciary – the Minister’s declared aim. For example, R70 million for the restructuring of court management countrywide and R9 million for the training of judges are aspects that are missing from this budget.

There is a R400 million shortage for court personnel. As a result, some 30% of posts are vacant. Yet, justice’s share of national expenditure is steadily decreasing. The NPA, which is the heart of the criminal justice system, is again experiencing protests by prosecutors and has massive vacancies. But more serious than the problems of the budget and the department, is the fact that the Minister has produced six draft Bills allegedly aimed at transforming the judiciary, which we believe, and which the entire judiciary and most legal and academic commentators believe, contain provisions which undermine judicial independence, striking at the cornerstone of our constitutional democracy.

The Minister said she still has an open mind on the Bills. We are glad to hear that. But, in the circumstances, we will take a rain check on support for the Budget Vote this time around. [Applause.]

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Chairperson, we hesitantly support this Budget Vote for at least three reasons. Firstly, in terms of the Constitution, more than two years ago, we submitted applications for pardons on behalf of 384 prisoners, but they are being ignored by government and that constitutes a violation of human rights. The Minister, last week, promised her immediate attention to the matter, for which I thank her.

Secondly, we are extremely concerned about the general collapse of our justice system. The main characteristics of this collapse are: the inability of the police to effectively combat crime and finalise investigations; the failure of our courts to hear cases; and the massive inhuman overcrowding in our prisons.

On the very same day when our Budget Vote was debated here, Petrus Liebenberg was released from prison, having won his appeal after spending 10 years in jail while he was innocent. How does one make good for 10 wasted years in prison?

The collapse of the justice system has become so threatening and dangerous that it has actually become a national crisis. Therefore we call on all political parties and civil society to put aside differences and stand united to prevent a total breakdown of our justice system.

The IFP therefore offers the government our total support to save the justice system and would specifically like to mention three areas where we should all assist, namely: we have to assist the police to improve their crime-fighting skills and speedy investigations of crime; we have to assist the courts in eradicating the trials backlog; and we have to assist our prisons department to eradicate the overcrowding of prisons. Society is duty-bound to do this, otherwise there is no hope.

Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, a judicial system is only as good as those who administer the law and we have very many dedicated prosecutors and magistrates. The crime problem is aggravated by the criminal system that has insufficient capacity to serve as a proper deterrent to crime. Courts are understaffed as court rolls are clogged to such an extent that cases are continuously postponed, and this has a knock-on effect on the number of awaiting-trial prisoners kept in deplorable conditions of overcrowding.

The problems in the various links in the system, from the arresting and investigating officers to the prosecutor, correctional services officer, judicial officer and defence lawyer, remain a challenge. A delay in any of these links severely affects the whole chain and adds to the backlog of cases.

We need to ensure that the effective day to day functioning of the system is achieved by enforcing an integrated approach whereby the four key government departments, namely Safety and Security, Justice and Constitutional Development, Correctional Services, and Social Development, take responsibility for success by means of binding interdepartmental protocols. Financial sanctions need to be applied, should a department breach the protocols. Such protocols will serve to enhance and strengthen the existing integrated justice system court centres.

The ACDP looks forward to the complete review of the criminal justice system and trusts that these aspects will receive attention. We will support the Budget Vote notwithstanding the reservations we have expressed.

Ms F I CHOHAN-KHOTA: Chairperson, we from this side of the House have never claimed that the justice department is perfect. Quite to the contrary, when we celebrated our freedom in 1994, we realised that one of the biggest challenges we were going to face was to integrate 11 departments of justice that were essentially very, very badly run into one entity. This, I am proud to say, we have managed to do. To come here and say things such as, “justice is collapsing and so on”, is just the most dishonest thing and just smacks of a lack of integrity.

I do think that we must give credit where credit is due. I am proud to say that the department of justice, for the first time, recorded an unqualified audit last year. This is due, in no small measure, to the efforts of committed South Africans: the director-general and former director-general, Adv Vusi Pikoli, Alan Mackenzie – the chief financial officer and their team. These are committed, talented and dedicated South Africans doing what they do best, that is working to build our country. We, from our side, will never ever register a vote of no confidence in the face of such dedication and commitment. [Interjections.] [Applause.] This is the difference between us on this side of the House and people on that side. We believe in this country. We believe in South Africans and we will vote in support of this Budget Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 24 - Safety and Security – put.

Declarations of vote:

Mnr R J KING: Agb Voorsitter, die DA glo dat as daar een aspek van die Suid- Afrikaanse lewe is wat soos ‘n Berlynse muur skei tussen ware vryheid enersyds, en die hel van sombere verknegting andersyds, dan is dit misdaad.

Terwyl ons kan spog met ‘n moderne eerstewêreldse grondwet, regeer die wet van die oerwoud die lewe van té veel van ons mense, en is vryheid steeds ‘n droom wat deur die werklikhede om ons negeer word. Suid-Afrikaners wanhoop daagliks aan gruwelike hoë moordsyfers, geweldadige roof, vroue- en kindermishandeling, korrupsie en onnatuurlike dood. Té veel is die gebiede waar bendes en professionele rampokkers heerskappy voer. Té veel is die buurtes waar dwelms en vernietiging die norm is. Té veel die strate en wyke waar kinders en bejaardes se lewens waardeloos is.

Die DA glo dat ware vryheid slegs ‘n mite sal bly vir u en my totdat Suid- Afrikaners sal uitbreek uit die spiraal van geweld en kan ontsnap aan die verknegting van misdaad. Die persepsie bestaan dat die kans dat misdadigers gevang, verhoor en gevonnis word baie min is, én die gebrek aan kapasiteit in ons Polisiediens laat ernstige vrae ontstaan oor die politieke wil om misdaad uit te roei.

Ons Polisiediens het net nie die kapasiteit of die vermoë om hierdie stryd te wen nie. En reeds onder dié omstandighede kom die ANC-regering en neem ‘n besluit wat die kapasiteit en vermoë van ons veiligheidsmagte nog meer drasties inkort: Kommando’s word afgeskaf. ‘n Gruwelike leemte word oornag uit die veiligheidsnet, in veral die plattelandse gebiede, geruk. U kan niemand daar buite blameer nie, Minister, as u ten volle verantwoording sal moet doen oor die gevolge van hierdie dwase daad. Die DA kan nie onder dié omstandighede, Voorsitter, hierdie begrotingspos ondersteun nie. Ek dank u. [Tyd verstreke.][Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr R J KING: Hon Chairperson, the DA believes that crime is one aspect of life in South Africa that separates true freedom, on the one hand, from the hell of dismal enslavement, on the other, like a Berlin wall. Whereas we can boast of a modern first world constitution, the law of the jungle governs the lives of too many of our people and freedom remains but a dream which is negated by the realities around us. South Africans despair daily because of the abominably high murder rates, violent robbery, abuse of women and children, corruption and unnatural deaths. There are too many areas where gangs and professional gangsters rule. There are too many neighbourhoods where drugs and destruction are the norm. There are too many streets and wards where the lives of children and elderly people are worthless.

The DA believes that true freedom will remain a myth for you and me until South Africans break free from the spiral of violence and escape from the enslavement of crime. The perception exists that the chance is very small for criminals to be caught, tried and sentenced, and the lack of capacity in our Police Service leads to serious questions arising about the political will to eradicate crime.

Our Police Service simply does not have the capacity or competence to win this battle. And under these circumstances the ANC government comes along and makes a decision that drastically diminishes the capacity and competence of our security forces even more: Commandos are being abolished. Overnight a terrible void is being left in the security net, especially in the rural areas. You cannot blame anybody outside, Minister, when you must fully account for the consequences of this foolish deed. Chairperson, the DA cannot support this Vote under these circumstances. I thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]]

Mr V B NDLOVU: Madam Chair, the incidence of the abuse of women and children has increased and family killings have taken their toll. How can we help the SAPS to stop these killings?

Strategies should be developed to stop these actions, because these killings affect the members of the SAPS. What measures are in place to make sure that the psychologists do assist the members who are affected by these killings? A decision was taken by the portfolio committee that the increase regarding the ordinary members of the SAPS must not be effected through recommendations by the station commissioners. Has this decision been ratified by management so that no station commissioner will recommend who is supposed to get an increase or not.

The criteria of the VIP protection unit that are being used to select people who will be protected need to be looked at by the Minister because there are people who are not supposed to be protected. I am specifically referring to Nkalankala Zungu and Sputla Mpungose. [Interjections.] These are people who are not supposed to be protected, and there are people who are supposed to be protected other than them. You can’t protect criminals who are really criminals. Thank you.

Rev K R J MESHOE: Madam Chair, the Safety and Security budget has many positive inclusions . . .

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Order please, members!

Rev K R J MESHOE: The Safety and Security Budget Vote has many positive inclusions such as salary increases for the police, but the ACDP has some serious concerns that are not addressed by this budget. Firstly, in the light of the continuing unacceptable killings of the police, we in the ACDP believe that every police officer must have a bulletproof vest. It is unhygienic for police officers to be expected to share sweaty bulletproof vests. This unhygienic sharing of vests may be one reason why some of the police don’t wear them.

Secondly, there is still too much corruption in the police. While the ACDP applauds the hard-working, honest and disciplined officers, we nevertheless believe that much still needs to be done to enhance the overall image of our police who are expected to provide efficient service to all our people.

Crime statistics released by government indicating that the war against crime is being won are not supported by the daily experiences of ordinary people on the ground. The ACDP will therefore not support this Budget Vote as the crime level in this country is still unacceptably high. Thank you.

Mr P J GROENEWALD: Madam Chair, during the reply of the hon Minister on the Budget Vote, he threw his arms in the air and said, “I am not closing commandos. It’s not I who closes the commandos”. [Interjections.] That’s what you said, hon Minister.

Those are the most disturbing remarks I ever heard in the whole process of closing down commandos. Why do I say that? [Interjections.] Hon Minister that is what you said.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Don’t misrepresent me.

Mr P J GROENEWALD: No, I am not misquoting you, we can go to the Hansard and look into that.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Order!

Mr P J GROENEWALD: Why I say those are the most disturbing remarks I ever heard in the whole process of the closure of commandos is this: Before a commando unit can close down, the Police Service have to clearly understand that they are in a position to take over the role of the commandos.

Kom ons vat die voorbeeld van Potchefstroomkommando: Die polisie kom en die polisie sê dat hulle gaan agt motors verloor omdat die getalsterkte van die polisie bepaal dat hulle nie soveel motors kan hê nie. Nou wil ek vir die agb Minister vra: Hoe is dit moontlik dat een sektorhoof van die polisie die rol kan oorneem?

Ek wil vandag vir die agb Minister baie ernstig sê: Die polisielede op grondvlak erken ruiterlik dat hulle nie die rol van die kommando’s kan oorneem nie. Die polisielede – en die agb lid moet mooi luister – op grondvlak erken dat daar ’n toename in misdaad gaan wees en hulle erken dat daar ’n vakuum in die veiligheidsituasie gaan ontstaan, veral wat landelike beveiliging betref.

As ons by die Parlement kom, dan kom die senior lede van die polisie en hulle sê hulle kan die taak doen. Die polisie kan nie daardie rol oorneem nie. Daar ontstaan ’n vakuum in die veiligheidsituasie, veral in die landelike gebiede en daarom sal die VF Plus nie hierdie begrotingspos ondersteun nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Let’s take the example of the Potchefstroom Commando. The police have stated that they are to lose eight vehicles because their numbers at the police station do not justify that number of vehicles. Now I want to ask the hon Minister, how is it possible that one sector head of the police can take over this role? I would earnestly like to tell the hon Minister that the police on the ground openly admit that they cannot take over the role of the commandos. The police on the ground – and the hon member must listen carefully - admit that there will be an increase in crime and that a vacuum will be created in the security situation, especially with regard to rural security.

In Parliament, senior members of the police will come along and state that they are capable of performing the task. The police cannot take over that role. A vacuum is being created in the security system, especially in the rural areas, and therefore we in the FF Plus will not support this Budget Vote.]

Ms S RAJBALLY: Madam Chair, in support of this Vote, the MF appeals to the Minister to seriously look into speedily increasing the number of police officials and supplying sufficient vehicles at all police stations. This will assist in taking care of crime in the community as there is always an excuse of insufficient police officials and vehicles when cases are reported. Thank you.

Ms A VAN WYK: Chairperson, when you are policy-deprived, like the DA, you turn your attention to being emotional. It’s a pity that they do so at the expense of the suffering of very real persons. The truth of the matter is that never in the history of our country has so much financial and human resources been allocated and focus put on the real issue of fighting crime. [Interjections.] I fail to understand how the DA can stand here and make the kind of statements that they do. When it was time to interact with the department on the budget they were passive spectators in the whole process. In fact, we said, in the study group, “Well, maybe we must organise our own opposition in the committee because it’s getting very boring.” [Interjections.]

Let it also be known that the report of the committee was adopted unanimously by all parties in the committee, including the DA and the ACDP. I can say with honesty that the FF Plus didn’t adopt it because they don’t know when meetings take place. [Laughter.]

The budget of Safety and Security has increased dramatically over the past six years. But, even more importantly, the distribution and focus is achieving the desired effects. We have seen a decrease in serious and violent crimes such as murder by 9,3% in the past financial year.

Die DA verstom my. Hulle sê dat mense nie vry is nie, maar hulle het die vermoë om vandag hier te staan en die nonsense te praat wat hulle praat, sonder dat hulle op enige manier bedreig word. Hoe kan u hier staan en die Huis mislei? Moord is af met 9,9%; roof is af met 1,7% van die vorige jaar; verkragting met 1,4%. Wanneer daar wel programme ingestel word wat daarop gemik is om misdaad aan te spreek, dan is die DA die eerstes wat hulle op perdjie klim en sê: Nee! Nee! Nee – soos byvoorbeeld met die wapenamnestie. Verlede week is drie gesinne in hierdie provinsie vermoor deur mense na aan hulle en dit is gedoen met wettige vuurwapens, maar steeds is julle teen wapenamnestie. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Aan die VF Plus wil ek sê, kommando’s is uit, dis uit! Die polisie moet doen wat hulle moet doen. Die weermag is hier om die land te verdedig nie om misdaad te bekamp nie. [Tyd verstreke.][Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[The DA astounds me. They say that people are not free, but they are able to stand here today and talk the nonsense that they do, without being threatened in any way. How can you stand here and mislead the House? Murder is down by 9,9%; theft is down by 1,7% on the previous year; rape by 1,4%. When programmes are in fact introduced which are aimed at addressing crime, then the DA are the first to get onto their high horse and say: No! No! No – such as, for example, in the case of the firearms amnesty. Last week three families were murdered in this province by people close to them and it was done with legal firearms, but you are still opposed to the firearms amnesty. [Interjections.]

To the FF Plus I want say, commandos are out; they are out! The police have to do what they have to do. The Defence Force is here to defend the country, not to fight crime. [Time expired.][Applause.]]

Division demanded. The House divided:

AYES-234: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya, S
E; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Bapela, K O; Bekker, H J; Beukman, F;
Bhamjee, Y S; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, M J; Bhengu, P; Biyela, B P ; Bloem, D
V; Blose, H M; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M
G; Cachalia, I M; Carrim, Y I; Chang, E S; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S;
Chohan-Khota, F I; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Davies, R H;
De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Direko, I W; Dodovu, T S; du Toit, D C;
Erwin, A; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Fubbs , J L; Gabela, L S;
Gcwabaza, N E ; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gillwald, C E ;
Godi, N T; Gololo, C L; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Greyling, C H F;
Gumede, D M ; Gumede, M M; Gxowa, N B; Hanekom, D A; Hendricks, L B;
Hogan, B A; Huang, S; Jacobus, L ; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Johnson, C
B; Johnson, M; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kasienyane, O R; Kati, Z J;
Kekana, C D; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P;
Kondlo, N C; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K;
Lekgoro, M M S; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I;
Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Mabudafhasi, T R; Mabuyakhulu, D
V; Madlala-Routledge, N C; Maduma , L D; Madumise, M M; Magau, K R;
Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlawe, N M; Mahote, S;
Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Makgate, M W; Malahlela, M J;
Maloyi, P D N; Maluleka, H P; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins,
B A D; Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P M;
Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M H; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M;
Maziya, A M; Mbombo, N D; Mdladlana, M M S; Meruti, M V; Mgabadeli, H C;
Mkhize, Z S; Mkongi, B M; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mngomezulu, G P;
Mnguni, B A; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, O M;
Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mokoena, A D; Mokoto, N R; Molefe, C T;
Moleketi, P J; Moloto, K A; Monareng, O E; Montsitsi S D; Moonsamy, K;
Morutoa, M R; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Moss, M I; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S
D; Mpaka, H M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mzondeki, M J
G; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S;
Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J;
Ngema, M V; Ngiba, B C; Ngwenya, M L; Njobe, M A A; Nkuna, C; Nogumla, R
Z; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli,
S B; Nxumalo, M D; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G;
Padayachie, R L; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Phungula, J P; Pieterse, R D;
Pule, B E ; Rabinowitz, R; Radebe, B A; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M
M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C P M; Ramphele, T D H;
Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E A; Seaton, S A;
Sefularo, M; Sekgobela, P S; September , C C; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J
B; Sibuyana, M W; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M
B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, P F; Smith , V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G;
Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Stofile, M A; Thabethe, E; Thomson,
B; Tinto, B; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J;
Tshwete, P; Turok, B; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S
C; Van Wyk, Annelizé; Vezi, T E; Vundisa, S S; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M
; Yengeni, L L; Zikalala, C N Z; Zita, L; Zulu, B Z ; Zulu, N E.


NOES-51: Blanché, J P I; Coetzee, R; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Doman,
W P; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M;
Green, L M; Groenewald, P J; Haasbroek, S F; Henderson, R K;
Jankielsohn, R; Kalyan, S V; King, R J; Kohler-Barnard, D; Labuschagne,
L B; Leon, A J; Lowe, C M; Madasa, Z L; Maluleke, D K; Masango, S J;
Meshoe, K R J; Minnie, K J; Morgan, G R; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A;
Nel, A H; Nkem-Abonta, E; Ntuli, R S; Opperman, S E; Rabie, P J;
Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Smuts, M; Spies, W D; Steyn, A C;
Swart, M; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Swathe, M M; Trent, E W; Van der Walt,
D; Van Dyk, S M; Van Niekerk, A I; Waters, M; Weber, H; Zille, H.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 25 – Agriculture – put.

Declarations of vote:

Dr A I VAN NIEKERK: Geagte Voorsitter, die DA ondersteun in die breë hierdie pos, vanweë die feit dat daar genoegsame geld vir die departement beskikbaar gestel is, behalwe vir landbounavorsing.

In wese is die DA nie tevrede met die wyse waarop die geld bestuur word nie. Die noodsaaklike onderbou in die vorm van navorsing om landbou suksesvol te ondersteun, is besig om plat te val. Die aksies van die Minister en die departement in hierdie verband toon geen positiewe resultate nie en die posisie verswak dag na dag. Daar is wantroue tussen die amptenare van Landbounavorsing en die raad wat dit moet bestuur. Die verdere gevolge van hierdie gebeure is dat die voorligtingsdiens wat noodsaaklik is om nuwe boere te vestig en te begelei, ook besig is om plat te val – tot nadeel van grondhervorming.

Op ekonomiese gebied tree die departement nie op as kampvegter vir kommersiële boere nie. Die nalaat om by te dra tot die instelling van heffings op die invoer gesubsideerde landbouprodukte in Suid-Afrika het graanboere in dilemmas geplaas wat hulle nie nodig het nie en wat hulle nie kan oorleef as daar nie sinvol hierna gekyk word nie. Ook dit is onverskoonbaar. Die optrede vorentoe in landbou gaan kritiek word as die departement nie sy organisasie en beheer opknap nie. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Dr A I VAN NIEKERK: Hon Chairperson, the DA supports this Vote in general, owing to the fact that adequate funds are at the disposal of the department, except for agricultural research.

In essence the DA is not happy with the manner in which the funds are being managed. The essential infrastructure in the form of research to support agriculture successfully is in the process of collapsing. The actions of the Minister and the department in this regard show no positive results and the position is deteriorating by the day. There is suspicion between officials of Agricultural Research and the council that should be managing it. The further consequence of these events is that the extension service that is essential to establish and guide new farmers is also in the process of collapsing – to the detriment of land reform.

In the economic sphere the department is not acting as a champion for commercial farmers. The failure to contribute to the introduction of levies on the import of subsidised agricultural products in South Africa faced grain farmers with dilemmas that they do not need and cannot survive if this is not looked at in a meaningful way. This is also inexcusable. The future action taken with regard to agriculture is going to become critical if the department does not brush up its organisation and management.]

Mnr S ABRAM: Agb Voorsitter, ek staan hier namens die ANC om hierdie begrotingspos te ondersteun.

Die agb lid Van Niekerk het hier ’n paar dinge kwytgeraak. Onder andere sê hy dat navorsing ten opsigte van die landbou besig is om plat te val. Die agb lid loop dinge nou vooruit. Hy het vandag gehoor by die portefeuljekomitee dat die agb Minister juis die komitee gaan kom inlig binne ’n paar dae oor die situasie ten opsigte van navorsing en probleme rondom navorsing.

Die agb lid Van Niekerk sê dat die regering nie die kampvegter is vir kommersiële landbou nie. U weet, dit is ’n “understatement”. U weet, hierdie regering het veel gedoen om markte vir landbouprodukte dwars oor die wêreld oopgemaak te kry – iets wat ons nie in die verlede gehad het nie.

Vandag is daar boere wat elke jaar nuwe Mercedes Benz’e en nuwe dubbelkajuitvoertuie koop. Daar is boere wat grond bekom het vir R20 en R30 per morg in daardie dae, wat dit deesdae verkoop teen oor die R2 000 per hektaar. [Tussenwerpsels.] As boerdery nie betalend is nie en as hulle nie goed doen nie, sal hulle nie daardie pryse vir grond kan kry nie. Laat ons die departement meet teen sy visie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr S ABRAM: Hon Chairperson, I rise on behalf of the ANC to support this Budget Vote.

The hon member Van Nierkerk said a few things here, among others that research relating to agriculture is collapsing. The hon member is jumping the gun. He has heard today from the portfolio committee that the hon Minister intends to inform the committee within a few days about the situation regarding research and problems surrounding research.

The hon member Van Niekerk alleges that government is not the champion of commercial agriculture. You know, that is an understatement. You know, this government has done a lot to open up markets for agricultural products all over the world – something we did not have in the past.

Today there are farmers who buy new Mercedes Benzes and new twin-cab vehicles every year. There are farmers who obtained land at R20 and R30 per morgen in those days, who are now selling it at more than R2 000 per hectare. [Interjections.] If agriculture was not profitable and if they were not doing well for themselves, they would not get this kind of price for their land. Let us assess the department in terms of its vision.]

And the vision of the Department of Agriculture is that of a united and prosperous agricultural sector. Nou moet ons vra: Het hierdie departement hierdie visie uitgeleef of nie? Die antwoord is: Natuurlik. [Tussenwerpsels.] Met die landbou gaan dit nie so vrot soos wat mense beweer nie. Dit is jammer dat my tyd verstreke is. [Tyd verstreke.][Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Now we must ask: Has this department lived up to this vision or not? The answer is: Of course it has. [Interjections.] Agriculture is not in such dire straits as people claim it is. It is a pity that my time has expired. [Time expired.] [Applause.]]

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 26 – Communications – put and agreed to.

Vote No 27 - Environmental Affairs and Tourism – put and agreed to.

Vote No 28 – Housing- put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr A C STEYN: Thank you, Chairperson. The DA supports the principle of subsidised state housing for the poor and the indigent of our communities. However, it is of grave concern when increased budget allocations do not result in increased housing delivery, as is evident over the last number of years. Allegations are also on the increase regarding beneficiaries who do not qualify for state subsidised housing but nevertheless become recipients thereof, at the expense of those who are truly in need of housing.

The recent revelations from the department and other housing agencies that there are numerous housing projects across the country that were started as far back as 1996 that have still not been completed, also make a mockery of the department’s statement that they have delivered in excess of 1,6 million homes. They may have paid out more than 1,6 million subsidies but it is evident that the number of subsidies paid out does not equate to an equal number of houses built. Why else would the Minister initiate yet another audit into what she terms block projects?

The DA therefore calls on the department to get its house in order and to translate the spending of the budget into delivery of quality houses for the poorest of the poor in a fair and transparent manner. Until this is done, we cannot support the continuous inefficient and wasteful expenditure currently taking place. The DA therefore does not support the Budget Vote. [Applause.]

Ms S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, the MF supports this Vote but is deeply concerned about the inferior quality of houses being built by the contractors. Whilst the government is making every effort in providing homes to the homeless, more funds are used to redo and repair these homes. An inspection in loco is urgently and kindly needed by the relevant authorities.

Mrs Z A KOTA: The ANC is not surprised about the DA’s confusion but as the ANC we are committed to fast-tracking housing delivery through the implementation of comprehensive plans. The critical aspect of the plan is the element of human settlement, in which the building of houses must be the building of communities. It is clear that there is enthusiasm from many corners of the country within the housing industry, that indicates that this approach is realistic.

The R42 billion from the banks indicates clearly their commitment in coming to the party. The emerging contractors stand to benefit from the national pilot projects such as the N2 Gateway. As the ANC, we call on all public representatives to dirty their hands and assist us with the building of houses. We welcome the increase of subsidies from R28 000 to R31 000. This is the reason why the ANC support this budget.

i-ANC izakuphatha de kubuye uYesu. Enkosi. [The ANC will govern until the coming of Christ. Thank you.]

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES-233: Abram, S; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya, S E; Balfour, B M
N; Baloyi, M R; Bapela, K O; Bekker, H J; Benjamin, J; Bhamjee, Y S;
Bhengu, F; Bhengu, P; Biyela, B P ; Bloem, D V; Blose, H M; Bogopane-
Zulu, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Cachalia, I M; Carrim, Y I; Chang, E
S; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan-Khota, F I; Combrinck, J J;
Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H;
Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Direko, I W; Dodovu, T S; du Toit, D C; Dudley,
C; Erwin, A; Fihla, N B; Fubbs , J L; Gabela, L S; Gcwabaza, N E ;
George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gillwald, C E ; Godi, N T;
Gololo, C L; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Green, L M; Greyling, C H F;
Gumede, D M ; Gumede, M M; Gxowa, N B; Hanekom, D A; Hendricks, L B;
Hendrickse, P; Hogan, B A; Huang, S; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Johnson,
C B; Johnson, M; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kasienyane, O R; Kati, Z J;
Kekana, C D; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P;
Kondlo, N C; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K;
Lekgoro, M M S; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I;
Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Mabuyakhulu, D V; Madasa, Z L;
Madlala-Routledge, N C; Maduma , L D; Madumise, M M; Magau, K R; Magazi,
M N; Magubane, N E ; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlawe, N M; Mahote, S; Maine, M
S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Makgate, M W; Malahlela, M J; Maloyi, P D N;
Maluleka, H P; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D;
Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F;
Matlala, M H; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mbombo, N D;
Mdladlana, M M S; Meruti, M V; Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mkongi, B M;
Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnguni, B A; Moatshe, M S;
Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J;
Mokoena, A D; Molefe, C T; Moleketi, P J; Moloto, K A; Monareng, O E;
Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morutoa, M R; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Moss,
M I; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpaka, H M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B;
Mthethwa, E N; Mzondeki, M J G; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A;
Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D;
Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngema, M V; Ngiba, B C; Ngwenya,
M L; Njobe, M A A; Nkuna, C; Nogumla, R Z; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, S H;
Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, S B; Nxumalo, M D; Nzimande, L
P M; Oliphant, G G; Padayachie, R L; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phadagi,
M G; Phungula, J P; Pieterse, R D; Pule, B E ; Radebe, B A; Rajbally, S;
Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C P M;
Ramphele, T D H; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Roopnarain, U; Schneemann, G
D; Schoeman, E A; Seaton, S A; Sefularo, M; Sekgobela, P S; September ,
C C; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibuyana, M W; Sisulu, L N; Skhosana,
W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, P F; Smith , V G; Solo, B M;
Solomon, G; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Stofile, M A; Swart, S
N; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tinto, B; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S
L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der
Merwe, S C; Van Wyk, Annelizé; Vezi, T E; Vundisa, S S; Wang, Y; Woods,
G G; Xingwana, L M ; Yengeni, L L; Zikalala, C N Z; Zita, L; Zulu, B Z ;
Zulu, N E.


NOES-42: Blanché, J P I; Coetzee, R; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Doman,
W P; Dreyer, A M; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Groenewald, P J; Jankielsohn,
R; Kalyan, S V; King, R J; Kohler-Barnard, D; Labuschagne, L B; Leon, A
J; Lowe, C M; Maluleke, D K; Masango, S J; Minnie, K J; Morgan, G R;
Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Nkem-Abonta, E; Ntuli, R S;
Opperman, S E; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Smuts, M; Spies, W
D; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swart, P S; Swathe, M M; Trent, E W; Van der
Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M; Van Niekerk, A I; Waters, M; Weber, H; Zille, H.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 29 - Land Affairs – put.

Declarations of vote:

Mnr A H NEL: Voorsitter, ons steun die begroting vir grondsake omdat die Minister van Finansies ’n ekstra R6 miljard beskikbaar gestel het vir die afhandeling van die restitusie eise. Daar is egter nog ’n tekort, volgens die Departement van Landbou en Grondsake, van R3 miljard. Solank as wat amptenare mikpunte gestel word sonder die nodige finansiering sal hulle sondebokke soek omdat hulle weet hul daardie mikpunte nie sal kan bereik nie. Die gerieflikste sondebokke is natuurlik die huidige grondeienaars, en daarom die beskuldigings dat hulle te veel vir grond vra.

Die feit is egter dat onafhanklike waardeerders, aangestel deur die departement, die grond evalueer, en dit is dan die prys wat die staat betaal. Verder spog die departement, in stukke wat voor die portefeulje komitee gelê is, dat die prys wat hulle per hektaar betaal het, naamlik R2 922, onder die gemiddelde prys per hektaar is, soos bepaal deur syfers vir markgerigte verkope van die hele land, naamlik R2 944. Vier persent van die grond kom elke jaar in die mark teen hierdie gemiddelde pryse. Dit is dus nie die prys, of die beskikbaarheid van grond, wat die probleem is nie. Die probleem is eerder genoegsame finansiering en die nodige administratiewe kapasiteit by die departement. Baie dankie. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr A H NEL: Chairperson, we support the budget for land affairs because the Minister of Finance has made an extra R6 billion available for the finalisation of the restitution claims. There is, however, still a shortfall of R3 billion, according to the Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs. As long as officials are set targets without the necessary finances they will look for scapegoats because they know that they will not be able to reach those targets. The most convenient scapegoats are of course the current landowners, and hence the accusations that they are asking too much for land.

The fact is, however, that independent assessors, appointed by the department, evaluate the land, and that is the price that the state pays. The department furthermore boasts in documents tabled before the portfolio committee, that the price that they paid per hectare, namely R2 922, is below the average price per hectare, as determined by the figures for market-related sales for the entire country, namely R2 944.

Four per cent of the land is put on the market at this average price every year. It is therefore not the price, nor the availability of land, that is the problem. The problem is rather one of adequate finance and the necessary administrative capacity at the department. Thank you very much. [Applause.]]

Mr M V NGEMA: Chairperson, the IFP will be supporting the Vote, but wishes to warn that unless the government’s land reform programmes effectively deliver a more equitable balance in land ownership, the country could face enormous problems.

The allocation of the sum of R6 billion to conclude the land restitution programme is an important development. However, the IFP wishes to point out that this allocation is a drop in the ocean when considering the big picture of imbalance in land ownership in the country. I thank you.

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Geagte Voorsitter, die VF Plus steun hierdie Begrotingspos, maar ons is toenemend bekommerd dat veral amptenare deur middel van die media uitsprake maak en die beskuldiging opper dat boere nie hul grond beskikbaar wil stel nie. Dit veroorsaak spanning.

Ek wil graag ’n beroep op die agb Minister doen om haar amptenare aan te spreek, want die werklike probleem met grondhervorming is, soos wat daar gesê is, ’n finansiële probleem aan die een kant, maar aan die ander kant is een van die grootste probleme die onbevoegdheid van amptenare wat sake laat sloer. Die agb Minister weet dit.

Die Delmanuthu-saak is ’n spesifieke geval. Nadat die agb Minister ’n onderneming gegee het dat daar spoedig opgetree sou word, het dit nog ’n maand gevat voordat ’n amptenaar na die persone gegaan het om ’n waardasie te doen om sodoende te bepaal wat die prys moes wees. Hierdie gesloer veroorsaak dat boere in ’n onmoontlike situasie geplaas word. Hulle moet van hulle los implemente ontslae raak; hulle moet van hulle vee ontslae raak.

Hulle sluit ’n kontrak met die departement, maar op nommer 99 is daar soveel vertragings dat hulle aan die een kant eenvoudig net nie kan voortgaan om te boer nie, en aan die ander kant kan hulle ook nie ander plase gaan aanskaf of ’n ander lewe begin nie. Dit is uiters onbillik teenoor hierdie mense, en ek wil vir die agb Minister vra om haar amptenare aan te spreek om nie hulle eie onbevoegdheid te probeer verbloem deur deur middel van die media die skuld op die boere te plaas en te maak asof hulle nie hul grond wil beskikbaar stel nie. Dit is nie aanvaarbaar nie. Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, the FF Plus supports this Budget Vote, but we are increasingly concerned that officials in particular are making statements, through the media, and levelling the accusation at farmers that they do not want to make their land available. This is causing tension.

I would like to appeal to the hon Minister to address this matter with her officials, because the actual problem with land reform, as has been indicated, is a financial problem on the one hand, but on the other hand one of the biggest problems is that matters are delayed because of the incompetence of officials. The hon Minister is aware of this.

A case in point is the Delmanuthu matter. After the hon Minister gave an undertaking that swift action would be taken, it took another month before an official went to the individuals to do a valuation in order to determine what the price should be. This tardiness is putting farmers in an impossible position. They must get rid of their implements; they must get rid of their livestock.

They enter into an agreement with the department, but there are so many last minute delays that they simply cannot continue farming on the one hand, and on the other hand they are also not in a position to purchase other farms or start a new life. This is very unfair to these people, and I want to ask the hon Minister to address the matter with her officials so that they do not attempt to cover up their own incompetence by using the media to put the blame on the farmers, alleging that they do not want to make their land available. This is unacceptable. Thank you.]

Ms E NGALEKA: Chairperson, the ANC supports the Budget Vote. Since 1994 the Departments of Agriculture and of Land Affairs have played a critical role in addressing poverty through rural development, restoring dignity to those who were dispossessed of their land in the past. The increase in the budget for restitution is an indication of the government’s commitment to land reform.

Our programmes of land reform are aimed at ensuring that the land is shared by those who work it. This budget will ensure that the beneficiaries of land reform and emerging farmers get the support that they need.

Grondpryse is ’n probleem en dit bly ’n probleem. Dit het ook vir ons duidelik geword dat sodra van die boere uitvind dat daar ’n eis teen hulle grond is, stoot hulle tog hul pryse op. Dit is al bewys in gevalle, so ons moenie kom veralgemeen en maak asof alle boere engeltjies is nie. Hulle is nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Land prices are a problem and remain a problem. It has also become clear to us that the moment the farmers find out that a claim has been lodged against their land, they push up their prices all the same. This has been proved in some cases, so we should not generalise and make as if all farmers are angels. They are not.]

Lastly, hon FF, could you please attend portfolio committee meetings, because by attending portfolio committee meetings you will get free education and stop abusing democracy. You are not attending meetings, but you come here and want to call for a division. Don’t abuse the democracy. Thank you.

Dr C P MULDER: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): I will allow you in a moment.

Hon member Ngaleka, would you please just return to the podium until I have taken the point of order. [Interjections.] Hon member, since the point of order was raised while you were still at the podium, could you please just return to the podium. [Interjections.]

Hon member, what is your point of order? Please take your seat, hon member Ngaleka. Thank you.

Dr C P MULDER: Chairperson, my point of order is the following. We are going through this process in terms of the Rules of this House. The Rules of this House make provision, therefore, that parties may state their positions. That is what all opposition parties are doing. The fact that the Rules do not make provision that all members are not represented . . .[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon members, order! [Interjections.] Order! What is your point of order?

Dr C P MULDER: The same Rules make provision that all parties are not represented in all committees. [Interjections.] So, to state that we are undermining the Rules of the House, or are wasting the democracy’s time is not true. Parties are entitled to put their positions in this House in terms of the Rules, unless we are saying you are not democratic and that is what she is saying. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Please don’t point. Thank you very much.

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 30 – Minerals and Energy – put.

Declarations of vote:

Adv H C SCHMIDT: Madam Chair, the DA will not condone the racially motivated statements and policies of the ANC Ministry of Minerals and Energy. The abusive attacks by the hon Deputy Minister, Lulu Xingwana, on major mining houses Anglo American and De Beers for daring to appoint, and I quote, “lily-white males” despite honest and clear progress in appointing suitable black appointees to some of the most senior positions in these companies are both alarming and frightening and, I might add, disgusting.

We can only assume that these attacks convey the thoughts and feeling of the Ministry itself and not Cabinet, and in particular not the President. The ANC should rather attempt to govern the erratic state departments effectively and efficiently and not interfere in the private sector. Any further pressure brought to bear upon the mining industry will lead, inevitably, to disinvestment by international companies to the detriment of the industry and your own BEE programme. [Interjections.]

The Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act is creating confusion and uncertainty for major companies and small-scale miners, an issue which needs to be addressed urgently.

The latest scandal to emerge, namely Oilgate, in terms of which Petro SA allegedly paid R11 million to the ANC via a BEE company, indicates the general state of affairs affecting this department. [Interjections.] The ANC government, which professes to practise transparency and openness, is clearly following the dubious example of its predecessor and current partner the NNP, namely secrecy and inherent corruption.

We call upon the ANC to state its version of the facts in this matter. It has a duty to do so. The DA opposes this Budget Vote. Thank you. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Mr L M GREEN: Madam Chairperson, I think the ACDP is just going to object to the Vote. We do not wish to make a speech.

Mnr W D SPIES: Agb Voorsitter, wanneer ons kyk na Minerale en Energie is daar inderdaad vir ons rede om te juig, sowel as om te treur. Aan die een kant wil ons juig saam met duisende toekomstige geslagte oor die energie wat gespandeer is, die insette wat gelewer is en die beleggings wat gemaak word om groter energiedoeltreffendheid te bewerkstellig. Ons is dankbaar oor geld wat bestee word om hernubare energiebronne te ontgin, en ons verwelkom dit en ons sê daarvoor dankie.

Aan die ander kant is daar ook vir ons genoeg rede om te treur. Een van die belangrike punte wat ons wil uitlig is die gebrek aan doeltreffendheid met die omskakeling van ou-generasie mynregte na nuwe-generasie mynregte. Dit skep ’n ernstige probleem, nie net vir die boere op hulle plase wat sit met delwers nie, maar ook vir die groot mynmaatskappye en vir internasionale beleggers - waaraan ons moet aandag gee.

Volgens die Prokureursorde van Suid-Afrika is daar meer as 2 000 kennisgewings afgelewer van voorneme vir litigasie rakende onteieningseise wat ingestel gaan word as gevolg van die inwerkingtreding van die nuwe mineraalbedeling. Indien slegs 10% van hierdie kennisgewings ontaard in litigasie sou dit beteken dat slegs regskostes, en dit is ongeag of dit suksesvolle of onsuksesvolle litigasie is, meer as R100 miljoen beloop. Dit is meer as 50% van die bedrag wat op die oomblik begroot word vir mineraal ontwikkeling. Ons moet dit ernstig opneem, ons moet daarvoor begroot, anders is ons roekeloos.

Ek wil ook aansluit by die vorige spreker rakende geld wat vanuit die sentrale energiefonds oorbetaal is. Daardie fonds is bedoel vir strategiese energiebeleggings. Ons kan dit nie vir enige ander doel aanwend nie, en alvorens ons nie duidelikheid het dat die oorbetalings wat aan Petro SA gemaak is wel vir daardie doel gebruik word nie, kan ons nie hierdie begroting steun nie. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr W D SPIES: Hon Chairperson, when we look at Minerals and Energy, we indeed have reason to rejoice, as well as reason to mourn. On the one hand we want to rejoice with thousands of future generations about the energy expended, the inputs that have been made and the investments that are being made to achieve greater energy efficiency. We are grateful for the money that is being spent for the exploitation of renewable energy resources, and we welcome it and we say thank you.

On the other hand we also have reason to mourn. One of the most important issues we want to single out is the lack of efficiency with the change-over from old-generation mining rights to new-generation mining rights. This creates a serious problem, not only for the farmers who now sit with diggers on their farms, but also for the big mining companies and for international investors – whom we have to attend to.

According to the Law Society of South Africa more than 2000 notices have been delivered of intentions to litigate regarding expropriation claims that are going to be instituted because of the coming into force of the new mineral dispensation. If only 10% of these notices lead to litigation, it would mean that the legal costs alone, and this is irrespective of whether the litigation is successful or not, will amount to more than R100 million. This is more that 50% of the amount that is currently budgeted for mineral development. We need to take this seriously; we need to budget for it, otherwise we are being reckless.

I also want to link up with what the previous speaker said regarding money that was paid over from the central energy fund. That fund is meant for strategic energy investments. We cannot use it for any other purpose, and before we have clarity that the payments made to Petro SA were indeed used for that purpose, we cannot support this budget.]

Mr E N MTHETHWA: Sihlalo, nalokungenaludvonsi kuyantinyela. [Chairperson, every Tom, Dick and Harry is saying something.] We support this Budget Vote as the ANC. It’s the right thing to do.

The confusion about the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act is the problem of the DA. They are confused. It has nothing to do with the Act itself. The fact that they are raising the issue about companies like De Beers says that indeed our programme is working. We just have to emphasise it.

Regarding Petro SA – that they like so much because they have no programme anyway – the issue about it is that we still emphasise that we have a programme as the committee; no papers will dictate how we run our programme. We are going to continue running our programme the way we do. Thank you. [Applause.]

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES-235: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya, S
E; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Bapela, K O; Bekker, H J; Beukman, F;
Bhamjee, Y S; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, M J; Bhengu, P; Biyela, B P ; Bloem, D
V; Blose, H M; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M
G; Cachalia, I M; Carrim, Y I; Chang, E S; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S;
Chohan-Khota, F I; Combrinck, J J; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B
N; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Direko, I W;
Dodovu, T S; du Toit, D C; Erwin, A; Fihla, N B; Fubbs , J L; Gabela, L
S; Gcwabaza, N E ; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gillwald, C
E ; Godi, N T; Gololo, C L; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Greyling, C H F;
Gumede, D M ; Gumede, M M; Gxowa, N B; Hanekom, D A; Hendricks, L B;
Hendrickse, P; Hogan, B A; Huang, S; Jacobus, L ; Jeffery, J H; Joemat,
R R; Johnson, C B; Johnson, M; Jordan, Z P; Joubert, L K; Kalako, M U;
Kasienyane, O R; Kati, Z J; Kekana, C D; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E;
Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P; Kondlo, N C; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A;
Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T;
Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C;
Mabuyakhulu, D V; Madlala-Routledge, N C; Maduma , L D; Madumise, M M;
Magau, K R; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E ; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlawe, N M;
Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Makgate, M W; Malahlela,
M J; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleka, H P; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N;
Martins, B A D; Mashangoane, P R; Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J; Masutha,
T M; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M H; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F;
Maunye, M M; Maziya, A M; Mbombo, N D; Mdladlana, M M S; Meruti, M V;
Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mkongi, B M; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N;
Mngomezulu, G P; Mnguni, B A; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng,
T R; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mokoena, A D; Mokoto, N R;
Molefe, C T; Moleketi, P J; Moloto, K A; Monareng, O E; Montsitsi, S D;
Moonsamy, K; Morutoa, M R; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Moss, M I; Motubatse-
Hounkpatin, S D; Mpaka, H M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N;
Mzondeki, M J G; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N
M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T;
Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngema, M V; Ngiba, B C; Ngwenya, M L; Njobe,
M A A; Nkuna, C; Nogumla, R Z; Nqakula, C; Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana-
Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, S B; Nxumalo, M D; Nzimande, L P M;
Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Padayachie, R L; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E
G; Phadagi, M G; Phungula, J P; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Rajbally, S;
Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C P M;
Ramphele, T D H; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E
A; Sefularo, M; Sekgobela, P S; September , C C; Sibande, M P;
Sibanyoni, J B; Sibuyana, M W; Sikakane, M R; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M
B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, P F; Smith , V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G;
Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Stofile, M A; Thabethe, E; Thomson,
B; Tinto, B; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J;
Tshwete, P; Turok, B; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, J
H; Van der Merwe, S C; Vezi, T E; Vundisa, S S; Wang, Y; Xingwana, L M ;
Yengeni, L L; Zikalala, C N Z; Zita, L; Zulu, B Z; Zulu, N E.


NOES-47: Blanché, J P I; Coetzee, R; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Doman,
W P; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M;
Green, L M; Groenewald, P J; Jankielsohn, R; Kalyan, S V; King, R J;
Kohler-Barnard, D; Labuschagne, L B; Leon, A J; Lowe, C M; Madasa, Z L;
Maluleke, D K; Masango, S J; Minnie, K J; Morgan, G R; Mulder, C P;
Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Nkem-Abonta, E; Ntuli, R S; Opperman, S E;
Rabie, P J; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Smuts, M; Spies, W D;
Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Swathe, M M; Trent, E W;
Van der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M; Van Niekerk, A I; Waters, M; Zille, H.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 31 – Science and Technology – put and agreed to.

Vote No 32 - Trade and Industry - put.

Declarations of vote:

Dr E NKEM-ABONTA: Chairperson, as we are well aware, the mandates of the Department of Trade and Industry are to raise investment, expand and strengthen productive capacity, and create conditions for rapid and sustainable growth and for high employment.

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr N P Nhleko): Order, hon members! Awuyibambe nje kancane mfowethu. [Wait a little bit, hon member.] [Interjections.] Order! Hon members, please do give the hon member an opportunity to be heard.

Dr E NKEM-ABONTA: The question I ask in the House today is whether the department has performed in these areas. At best, its performance in these areas has been lacklustre, and neither the Minister nor the Deputy Minister has even bothered to attend the portfolio committee meetings for 14 months. None of them has attended any portfolio committee meeting.

But, more specifically, the department has failed in major areas. It has failed in its BEE policy. It has failed in industrial policy and it has also failed in small-business development. As we know, BEE policy has succeeded in producing a tiny rich elite, and has not succeeded in bringing the vast majority of black people into the economic mainstream. [Interjections.]

Regarding industrial policy, we still remain very confused. We still look for a coherent policy. And, of course, in small-business development all we hear about is restructuring and restructuring and restructuring. [Interjections.] But, very recently, we have also witnessed the inability of the Minister to design a rescue package for a distressed industry. I have in mind here the textile and clothing industry.

Also, what about Ceda and the Apex Fund? The department has rushed to launch these programmes without submitting to the portfolio committee any plan that ensures that there will be sustainability. And, of course, I come to the arms offset deal. [Interjections.] The arms offset deal. What we still notice is that the department has been very shoddy in reporting and monitoring the targets imposed . . The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr N P Nhleko): Order! Order, hon member.

Dr E NKEM-ABONTA: . . .in the deal, while all these things are symptoms of the lack of a coherent, modern and transparent industrial policy.

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr N P Nhleko): Order, hon member . . .

Dr E NKEM-ABONTA: As a consequence, the DA is unable to support the budget. Thank you. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Mr B A D MARTINS: Chairperson, the ANC supports Vote 32 because, firstly, the Department of Trade and Industry continues to facilitate access to sustainable economic activity and employment for all South Africans; and, secondly, the department provides an equitable and socially responsible environment for investment, employment creation and economic growth. I thank you. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 33 - Transport – put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr S B FARROW: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, if there is one thing that we have in common, it’s the need to get South Africa moving. Through the portfolio committee, we have come up with a bold agenda for effective and efficient delivery which we are in total harmony with. Where we differ is the means of getting there and although these issues have been in the budget debate for the past five years or so the progress has been slow and lacking in intent.

The time has come to think both radically and laterally. The DA believes the starting point needs to be the restructuring of the department to embrace all transport entities to ensure full integration of freight logistics systems.

Secondly, the need to put in place legislation to ensure funding of road maintenance of national and provincial roads by way of a dedicated fund through the fuel tax. If it can be done for the RAF, Mr Minister of Finance, then surely it can be done for the Road Maintenance Fund.

Thirdly, to increase subsidies for public transport to include taxis, not only busses and rail, through a multi-ticketing system levelled at the commuter, and not the operator, and embracing in particular the elderly, students and the disabled.

Fourthly, to form and introduce a national highway patrol, a dedicated transport police force and additional accredited provincial traffic police to effectively bring back a safe and disciplined motoring public devoid of the ever-increasing road deaths which cost our economy over R38 billion a year. Every reduction in accidents, serious injuries and death on our roads will reduce the claims against the insolvent RAF and any money spent in enforcement will be an investment in all of our futures.

A policy shift in these few directions would go a long way in contributing to our country’s growth and development whilst at the same time creating jobs and employment opportunities. The time for this shift is now and I look forward to the role that the DA can play in this regard, and in particular the input in the creation of a budget, which will have the necessary resources to truly keep South Africa moving.

Finally, with so many public entities reporting to the Minister and more oversight roles required, I would appeal to the Minister to ensure that the Department of Transport is well represented on these Boards where money is in many instances wasted and misappropriated – and here I single out the ACSA CEO, which has recently been in the press.

Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Mr L M GREEN: Chairperson, the Road Accident Fund remains a thorn in the flesh of the Department of Transport - the proverbial Achilles heel of an otherwise well-functioning portfolio. The Auditor-General has warned that the RAF is facing a serious financial crisis, with debts exceeding its asset by R18 billion.

If the RAF were a registered company, such as any other short-term insurance company, it would have been sequestrated long time ago. The fund incurred an operating loss of R3,1 billion for the year ending 31 March

1. Presently, its total liabilities exceed its total assets by more than R18 billion.

The liquidity of the fund is of great concern to the ACDP because the fund has net current liabilities of R4,2 billion at financial year end. What is more disconcerting are the outstanding claims at the end of 2004 financial year, which amounted to R18,5 billion.

The RAF has consistently been plagued by allegations of corruption, fraud and maladministration. The bold action of the Minister of Transport is commendable. This has led to the suspension of the CEO and the former chairperson of the fund.

We do not wish to negate the hard work done by the Minister and his department, but as a sign of our protest against the mismanagement of the Road Accident Fund, the ACDP will unfortunately not support this Budget Vote.

Thank you, Chairperson. Mr J P CRONIN: Chairperson, some other speakers of the ANC before me have expressed surprise at what has come from opposition benches, sometimes on the grounds that some opposition members have never participated in portfolio committee meetings. In my case, I am not going to go in that direction at all.

Both Mr Farrow and Mr Green have been very active members in the portfolio committee, which is why they were well informed when they made their inputs. And which is why both of them have congratulated the department for its performance in general.

I am a little surprised though. I mean Mr Green, as a participant would know that the Road Accident Fund is not a private sector short-term insurance company, it’s a public fund which has its own challenges, and which we are addressing.

I think that both Mr Farrow and Mr Green would also know, as active members of the portfolio committee, that in the last decade of the apartheid regime absolutely no investment whatsoever went into transport except when it was related to military transport. They would also know that in the first 10 years since 1994, there were other priorities, unfortunately but I think understandably, in terms of our national budget by way of health care, education and so on.

They would know that therefore this budget marks an important turn in future transport. It is an expansionary budget. Over the medium-term expenditure time frame we will see the transport budget rise by an average of 11% - that is a very substantial rise. This expansionary budget is being driven by two key areas: public transport subsidies and road infrastructure and maintenance. As the ANC we certainly support those priorities.

If there is a division – I don’t think there will be any – we will certainly be pressing the green button and those who might be inclined otherwise are certainly free to press the self-destruct button provided, of course, they are sitting in their allocated seats.

Thank you, Chairperson. [Laughter.] [Applause.]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Vote No 34 – Water Affairs and Forestry - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, we will not be making a declaration in this particular Vote. So that is that, as far as we are concerned.

An HON MEMBER: Chairperson, the ANC is happy that the DA is finally thirsty and doesn’t want to make a declaration. Thanks. [Interjections.]

Vote agreed to.

Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL


                       (Second Reading debate)

Mr N M NENE: Chairperson, I’ve been asked to speak for two minutes.

We’ve come a long way as a nation, from the day the people of this country came together to declare that this country belongs to all who live in it, black and white, and that no government can justly claim authority unless it is based on the authority of all the people.

Who in his sober mind can call this historic document, upon which our Constitution is based, a political party pamphlet? Who can call the will and aspirations of the people of South Africa, black and white, together as equals, countrymen and brothers who adopted the People’s Charter, a mere slogan?

As we gather here today we represent those masses out there that expect us as members of this House to champion the cause of total emancipation from poverty and underdevelopment through the allocation of resources so that the dreams of their forebears are realised.

The Appropriation Bill tabled by the hon Minister of Finance, Dr Trevor Manuel, on 23 February 2005, is put before this House today for final approval, after being subjected to a rigorous process in various committees and to debates in Extended Public Committees.

A sound microeconomic framework, a reasonable budget deficit, a low inflation rate that is well within target range and steady economic growth have made it possible to have an expansionary Budget that is responsive to the people’s needs.

Our government’s policy priorities are in keeping with the People’s Charter and, subsequently, the Reconstruction and Development Programme, and, therefore, this Budget gives expression to that policy.

Mhlazane abantu bakithi beshicilela uSomqulu weNkululeko babengenalo izwi ekubusweni kwaleli lizwe, kepha babenombono wokuthi ngelinye ilanga ziyobuya emasisweni. Abashongo ukuthi izwe kuyoba elethu sodwa kodwa bathi liyoba ngelabo bonke abantu abamnyama nabamhlophe, ngaphandle kokubandlulula. Sezibuyile-ke emasisweni manje. Yingakho-ke kuthi uma kwabiwa imali udaba ludingidwe esidlangalaleni wonke umuntu azi ukuthi idubukele. Akusenjengakuqala lapho amantshontsho ayedlelwa khona emsamo kuthi uquqaba lwabantu luphonselwe amathambo angenanyama. Lesi Sabiwomali esiphambi kwale Ndlu namuhla siqonde ukuxosha ikati eziko, sidale amathuba emisebenzi. Neminyango kahulumeni, ngokomthetho, ivele isiqalile ukwenza izinhlelo zalo nyaka wezimali. (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[When our people wrote the Freedom Charter they did not have a say regarding the governing of this country, but they had an idea to say that some day things would get better. They did not say that the country would be only for us, but that it would be for all African and white people without discriminating.

Now things are running smoothly. That is why when they allocate the Budget the issue is discussed openly so that everyone knows that he can take part. It is no longer like in the olden days where the best things were given to the minority and the majority were given useless things. This Budget in front of this House today determines to eradicate poverty and to create job opportunities. Even the government departments have officially started making arrangements for this financial year.]

What we have seen here today is the DA and other reactionary forces voting against all attempts to bring about a better life for all. They voted against the opening of the doors of learning; they objected to the clause that says: “The people shall govern” at provincial and local government levels; they voted against the provision of houses and security for all; they voted against the idea of land that belongs to all who work it; they voted against health for all; and they voted against equal rights.

They voted against most of these Votes for narrow, political, selfish interests. We will not be deterred by these reactionary forces, and we appeal to our people not to allow these forces to play with their feelings and exploit their impatience.

The ANC has pledged its unwavering commitment to working with the people on the ground to resolve the problems of delivery in some of our areas. Whilst we acknowledge that there might be legitimate concerns in some of these areas, third-force elements will also have to be exposed in order to deal with the matter.

The Joint Budget Committee is in the process of finalising its recommendations, which would see Parliament being an active participant in the Budget process, with a particular focus on oversight.

The review of monthly and quarterly expenditure reports should be used effectively by committees when tabled in this House, in order to improve spending effectiveness and efficiency. Parliament should also engage the executive effectively in a dialogue on spending effectiveness.

We will also be recommending an institutionalised mechanism of engaging meaningfully with the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, which would be overseen by this Parliament.

We’d like to commend National Treasury for the guidelines for legislative oversight, through the annual reports that they have prepared for Parliament, and we’d like to urge committees to utilise this valuable tool.

Let me also thank Parliament for taking oversight seriously, by establishing the task team on oversight and accountability under the leadership of Comrade Nkosinathi Phiwayinkosi Nhleko. It’s an encouraging step in the right direction indeed.

Allow me, Speaker, to thank members of the committee for their dedication and contribution in the evolution of the committee as we advance towards effective oversight.

I-ANC iyaweseka lo mgomo wezimali. Ngiyabonga. [The ANC supports this Budget. Thank you.] [Applause.]

Mr I O DAVIDSON: Mr Chairman, South Africa has one of the highest rates of unemployment, stagnant at over 35% for the past 7 years. Today we have to remind ourselves that over 8 million South Africans are looking for work or, having failed to find work, they have given up trying. It’s in the context of this national crisis that the DA indicated our support for the Appropriation Bill, because we saw it as both redistributive and, more particularly, expansionary.

It was expansionary in that it included personal and corporate tax cuts, and strong infrastructural spending of R60 billion at national, provincial and municipal levels, all without deviating from the accepted deficit of 3% of GDP. Now, reflecting on the Budget, I am not sure that it was expansionary at all. The esteemed Commissioner Gordhan produced a further R10 billion revenue windfall two weeks after the Budget, having produced a further R11 billion just prior to the Budget. The effect of this was to reduce the real deficit to a mere 1,6% of GDP.

This left the Minister with an embarrassment of riches in his hands. It would have led to added pressure for either further tax cuts and incentives, or greater infrastructural spending. The first he didn’t have the stomach for, and on the latter he didn’t have the capacity. Instead, debt was retired and an opportunity, we believe, missed.

Therefore, we renew the call we made in our alternative budget for a policy on tax reform, particularly in respect of the effective tax rate on companies. Instead of ad hoc adjustments to the corporate tax rate, government should set a target corporate tax rate of about 25% and a time period over which it will be implemented. This will have a powerful and immediate effect on investment and therefore the creation of jobs.

In addition, we renew our call – despite the Minister’s specious remarks – for further incentives and large-scale job creation at the lower end of the skills chain. If we can have tax allowances for capital investments, why not for businesses and households that employ labour-intensive methods?

In respect of infrastructure, we note that provinces and municipalities spent only 46% of their capital budgets last year. Therefore we urge the state to increase the capacity for infrastructural expenditure. In this regard, we believe that private sector capital should be mobilised to help the market and prove that the state is serious about harnessing the efficiency and service delivery credentials of private enterprise. After all, this is compatible with a new paradigm presented by the ANC’s discussion document called: “Development and Underdevelopment”.

This document places the DA’s economic policies at the heart of South Africa’s political economic discourse and proposes the interventions which will, according to its own words, set the preconditions for market-led growth. The implementation of the policies in the document will help to fire up economic growth and tackle our unemployment crisis. Incidentally, without a shadow of doubt, it will also prove that a stronger opposition with coherent pragmatic policies is very valuable in a thriving democracy. We support the Bill. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr T E VEZI: Chairperson, the IFP supports the Appropriation Bill against the background of the startling Auditor-General’s report which appeared in yesterday’s Business Day. While we applaud the good work done by the Minister and his department, we are concerned about reports like this one.

As I have often stated, we all share the same constituency. Irregular, fruitless and wasteful expenditure must and will result in lack of delivery. We must now ask ourselves what else needs to be done. Is it lack of capacity? Is it blatant unwillingness to work?

Unauthorised, irregular, fruitless and wasteful expenditure was reported in all nine provinces. In 89 of the 115 departments, our people have been short-changed for too long. Fruitless and wasteful expenditure means expenditure which was made in vain and would have been avoided, had reasonable care been exercised.

We live in the market place were all the agitation is taking place. We cannot adopt an armchair-critic attitude. Indeed, it is an attitude we can ill-afford. It is our people who suffer when there is no delivery.

The IFP supports the Bill and requests the Minister to note the concerns raised by our members during the various debates. I thank you.

Mr Y WANG: Chairperson, Ministers and members, I will be pretty short, as usual. The ID welcomes the special expansion, in connection with our transport, and all these initiatives. Therefore we support the Bill. Thank you. [Applause.]

Ms S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, over the past weeks we have engaged in debates over the budget allocation for various departments for this financial year, 2005-06. From the allocation, we have been able to see the priorities of the government and how, through the allocations, various departments set out to deliver within their faculties and ultimately deliver to the people of South Africa.

Primarily, the Appropriation Bill clearly advocates addressing the needs of the most impoverished of our land, but in no way tends to neglect the rest. The MF hopes that the larger allocations shall bring us even closer to the quality of life, livelihood and democracy that we hope to achieve.

All allocations and priorities of the departments will make service delivery a reality. The MF hopes that the funds shall be utilised effectively and efficiently to bring us to the South Africa we should be. The MF supports the Appropriation Bill. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mrs L S CHIKUNGA: Chairperson, hon members, the Freedom Charter did not end with its adoption in 1955. In fact, it is a beacon for further struggles, in a sense a standard by which to judge.

While the Freedom Charter is explicit that there shall be work and security, that there shall be peace and friendship, that the doors of learning and culture shall be opened, and that there shall be houses, security and comfort, the 2005 national Budget gives legitimacy to the claims of the charter.

The Freedom Charter is as relevant today as it was 50 years ago. The new democratic government has taken active steps to implement the central thrust of the Freedom Charter. It remains a living document and therefore informs the policy direction of our new democratic dispensation.

The ANC is not desperate to defend the Freedom Charter, but simply argues that our tried and tested history and participation in the struggle began not yesterday but a long time ago, and we’ll continue to do so.

The 2005 Budget is noted for its equitable redistributive character. It channels more resources towards job creation, human-resource development and poverty alleviation. The contract our government has with the people of South Africa to create work and fight poverty is clearly taken care of in this Budget. In fact, it acts in terms of and speaks to the challenges we face as a country within this context.

Government has to ensure that there is enough capacity to spend the Budget. Parliament has to play a vigorous oversight role so that this Budget is properly and qualitatively spent. The necessary tools for Parliament to enable it to play a continuous and effective oversight role in respect of the Budget include monthly and quarterly reports by different departments, which portfolio committees have to ensure that they receive.

Elements that stand in the way of implementing our programmes have to be uprooted and dealt with accordingly, as some Ministers, such as Comrade Minister Skweyiya to quote one Minister, are already doing.

While we conclude that our government is consistent with the Reconstruction and Development Programme and our Constitution, it plays a critical role in advancing social development. Those opposed to our struggle for a better life for all will always be antagonistic in their approach. We’ll therefore be confronted with new dilemmas and contradictions, as President Mbeki warned. New solutions are inevitably required to build our society. Time and the continual application of our wisdom will produce the outcome we desire.

Under these circumstances, I must share with you the recent remarks by Frederick van Zyl Slabbert. He said:

Today South Africans are planning, doing and experiencing everyday events that nobody in their wildest dreams would have thought possible 15 years ago. I recall, then, the pervasive sense of a stalemated, resource- destroying, deadlocked situation where one side was presenting the only solution at the total destruction of the other. We talked ourselves out of and away from a catastrophe.

Today, given the scope and depth of our transformation, we battle with problems that test our resolve and commitment. But these problems are about building democracy not destroying it, about creating an open society, in which poverty and deprivation can be overcome, not pursuing policies that entrench them. After 10 years, we are thriving and punching well above our weight amongst emerging democracies.

Historically, the ANC is the sole architect of establishing the framework for social change. The proper allocation of financial resources through budgetary intervention is our starting point. The ANC, in this regard, has displayed sheer wisdom and political acumen. Responding to issues raised by the opposition, particularly the DA, is a waste of time and energy. We have a very tight programme of national importance, which we have to implement, that they do not have.

We will therefore spare our energy and wisdom for such a task. Let the DA continue to make noise. We will continue to serve our people. Seventy per cent of them elected us, by the way. The ANC endorses the 2005 Appropriation Bill. I thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thank you very much, Chairperson and hon members. It is late in the day; so let me use my full time. [Interjections.]

Chairperson, I would actually ask the indulgence of the House to give consideration to this process. The Budget was tabled on 23 February. We have been through quite an intensive process in Parliament. I don’t believe that the ritualistic way in which we address matters in the Second Reading debates does justice either to our positions or to democracy. [Applause.] I would ask that this House, in all its glory, through the Joint Rules Committee, give consideration to this matter. Clearly, I think we must respect democracy. We must respect the right of parties to be heard.

However, for the past 11 years I have observed this with a degree of pain, because I don’t believe that it does justice to what we represent to the joint objectives we have to serve our people. So, I conclude by asking that that matter be considered and that, perhaps, next year we can look at the Budget quite differently and celebrate it’s passing. And, more importantly, consider also how Parliament will use the available information through monthly releases in terms of the PFMA and a variety of other sources to ensure that we can improve on the oversight of Parliament over the spending by government. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

Debate concluded.

Bill read a second time.

The House adjourned at 18:48. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS





                         FRIDAY, 27 MAY 2005

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. Withdrawal of Bills

   The Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism withdrew the following Bill on 26 May 2005: (i) Marine Living Resources Amendment Bill [B 16 – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 75)

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Finance

   Government Notice No 365 published in Government Gazette No 27487 dated 14 April 2005: Framework for Conditional Grants to Provinces in terms of Division of Revenue Act, 2005 (Act No 1 of 2005).

2. The Minister of Trade and Industry

   (a) Government Notice No R.1342 published in Government Gazette No 26994 dated 12 November 2004: National Gambling Regulations in terms of section 87 read with Item 8 of the Schedule to the National Gambling Act, 2004 (Act No 7 of 2004).

   (b) Government Notice No R.1311 published in Government Gazette No 26962 dated 12 November 2004: Standards Matters in terms of the Standards Act, 1993 (Act No 29 of 1993).

   (c) Government Notice No R.1315 published in Government Gazette No 26962 dated 12 November 2004: Standards Matters in terms of the Standards Act, 1993 (Act No 29 of 1993).

   (d) Government Notice No R.1397 published in Government Gazette No 27038 dated 3 December 2004: Strategic Industrial Project (SIP): Notice in terms of section 12G(16) d of the Income Tax Act, 1962 (Act No 58 of 1962).

   (e) Government Notice No R.1398 published in Government Gazette No 27038 dated 3 December 2004: Strategic Industrial Project (SIP): Notice in terms of section 12G(16) d of the Income Tax Act, 1962 (Act No 58 of 1962).

   (f) Government Notice No R.1399 published in Government Gazette No 27038 dated 3 December 2004: Strategic Industrial Project (SIP): Notice in terms of section 12G(16) d of the Income Tax Act, 1962 (Act No 58 of 1962).

   (g) Government Notice No R.1441 published in Government Gazette No 27097 dated 17 December 2004: Strategic Industrial Project (SIP): Notice in terms of section 12G(16) d of the Income Tax Act, 1962 (Act No 58 of 1962).

   (h) Government Notice No R.1442 published in Government Gazette No 27097 dated 17 December 2004: Strategic Industrial Project (SIP): Notice in terms of section 12G(16) d of the Income Tax Act, 1962 (Act No 58 of 1962).

   (i) Proclamation No R.2 published in Government Gazette No 27157 dated 14 January 2005: Transfer of the administration of the Co- operatives Act, 1981 (Act No 91 of 1981), from the Minister of Agriculture to the Minister of Trade and Industry in terms of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1996 (Act No 108 of 1996).

   (j) Government Notice No R.133 published in Government Gazette No 27269 dated 18 February 2005: National Measuring Standards in terms of the Measuring Units and National Measuring Standards Act, 1973 (Act No 76 of 1973). (k) Government Notice No R.134 published in Government Gazette No 27269 dated 18 February 2005: Regulations relating to the payment of levy and the issues of sales permits with regard to compulsory specifications: Amendment in terms of the Standards Act, 1993 (Act No 29 of 1993).

   (l) Government Notice No R.140 published in Government Gazette No 27269 dated 18 February 2005: Regulations relating to the payment of levy and the issues of sales permits with regard to compulsory specifications: Amendment in terms of the Standards Act, 1993 (Act No 29 of 1993).

   (m) Government Notice No R.168 published in Government Gazette No 27269 dated 4 March 2005: Standards Matters in terms of the Standards Act, 1993 (Act No 29 of 1993).

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Assembly

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration on the Commonwealth Association of Public Administration and Management 10th Anniversary Biennial Conference, dated 10 March 2005:

2. INTRODUCTION

   The Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration was invited to participate in the 10th Anniversary Biennial Conference of the Commonwealth Association of Public Administration and Management (CAPAM), held in Singapore from 23 to 27 October 2004.

   The Committee accepted the invitation, and sent a delegation comprising of Messrs M R Baloyi (leading the delegation), N E Gcwabaza and R S Ntuli, accompanied by Ms N Gwaza, Committee Secretary.

   The Conference took place under the theme; “Networked Government”, and focused on three sub-themes, namely:

• Many agencies, one Government, which concentrated on Public Service as
  a learning organization, un-bureaucratic bureaucracy and citizen-
  centric service delivery;
• Engaging Citizens, which concentrated on building capacity for
  enhanced engagement, building partnerships with stakeholders and
  engagement through e-Government; and
• Networking beyond borders, which concentrated on partnering with
  international organizations, equipping officers for the international
  dimension and serving a globalised citizenry.

1. THE CONFERENCE IN PERSPECTIVE

   The Conference was preceded by a workshop organized for the purpose of allowing participants to share their views on the results of a survey that CAPAM conducted with a view to determine as to why Governments embark on new organisational and service delivery arrangements, and to use such an engagement in shaping the discussions in the Conference itself.

   The Workshop considered the survey results conducted through engaging experts from Australia, Canada, Ghana, India, Jamaica, Malaysia, Malta, New Zealand, Samoa, Singapore, South Africa and Uganda.

   The results indicated that public servants are the key change drivers in dealing with organizational change and service delivery arrangements, followed by politicians and then international development agencies. Noting the engagement in this survey report, the Workshop concluded that whereas there is diversity as to which agent directly dictates the course and speed of events in organizational change and the introduction of new service delivery mechanisms, country specifics point to the reality that those changes are the common features of governance. It also emerged in the survey report that all countries that are undergoing changes are faced with unique challenges, they have to increase capacity to deal with such challenges and, in order to do so, it is imperative that they get the best and relevant mix of tools, research and activities to get the best products out of the change processes, and it is in this regard that networking becomes critically important for all the Governments of the World, first at home and in the international community.

   Noting the CAPAM survey results that international and country experts agree that factors leading to organisational change depend on individual country circumstances, and applying that observation to our situation in South Africa, it comes to light that we need to pay attention to the following challenges: • Building on the political will that has been demonstrated through policy formulation in the Public Service arena; • Accelerating the strategic deployment of public servants; • Isolate and deal with cases of resistance to change; • Accelerate engagement with the academic community; • Dealing with consultancy domination; • Building change management capacity; • Improving horizontal communication among state organs; • Accelerating vertical communication between the Government and the people; • Intensify the fight against corruption; • Managing resource constraints.

   In exploring the conference theme, answers to the following questions were sought:

• How can Government be organized with different agencies and yet remain
  as a connected network as delivering integrated, customer-centric
  services?
• What values, structures, systems, processes and tools are required to
  encourage networking, collaboration and sharing knowledge across
  agencies?
• What are the competencies and values Public offices should have, and
  should these be honoured to build a shared understanding and purpose?

  In an attempt to get to the bottom of providing answers to the
 questions that the theme of the Conference introduced, the conference
 engaged in a mode of experience sharing guided by the sub-themes of the
 Conference, in which case they show-cased their respective experience,
 practices, policies and challenges that each country is confronted
 with. During this interaction, organs of civil society from various
 Governments were also sharing their experience. What spiced the whole
 interaction was the fact that Conference got divided into small groups
 and toured Singapore with a view of exposing delegates on the practical
 side of the information-exchange.

  To acknowledge that the Public Service is, of necessity, a learning
 organization results from, among other things the following:
• The Public Service’s ability to actively participate in a globalised
  environment,
• The state of the Public Service’s advancement  in ICT developments as
  a key communication mechanism,
• Visionary change,
• The need for the Public Service to be responsive to the needs/demands
  of the civil society,
• The development and deployment of managers who are visionaries.

  The observations that we make in this regard of our Public Service as
 a learning organization is that we need to examine the role that
 institutions such as SAMDI are playing in making training and
 development interventions for the learning advancement of our Public
 Service.

  Through debates on the engagement of civil society on matters of
 governance, policy formulation and service delivery, a number of things
 are emerging, namely:
• Not only are Governments taking the initiative to engage citizens and
  various stakeholders, but citizens themselves are increasingly
  demanding participation,
• Various forms of engaging the citizens are being utilised to promote
  and ensure effective engagement with civil society,
• Democracy is not just about the citizens exercising their rights to
  vote a Government into power, but it is also about involving them  in
  decision-making, in generating new ideas in matters of governance,
  policy development, service delivery and in budgetary processes. It is
  about empowering the citizens to tell public servants where they are
  succeeding and where they are failing to deliver.

  Our country’s participation in features of engaging citizens such as
 the “izimbizo’s”, the citizens forums, the use of Public Information
 Terminals, the Multi-Purpose Community Centres, door-to-door visits and
 community mass meetings serve to give meaning to the people governance
 concept, and practically position us in such a manner as to proclaim
 our compliance with the requirement of citizen engagement.

  Given the reality of globalization, it is possible for governments to
 form partnerships with organizations beyond their borders for purposes
 of sharing knowledge, networking and providing peer remedial solutions
 to problems and challenges.

1. CONCLUSION

   Whereas it often emerged that Governments engaged in self-praise and competitive attitudes rather than experience-sharing, perhaps natural in intergovernmental relations, a lot could be learnt from the interaction.

   It is a strong recommendation that we, as Parliament or as a Portfolio Committee or both, should constantly participate in the activities of CAPAM and in fact register as members. Individual MP’s may also register for membership.

Report to be considered.

1. Annual Report of the Portfolio Committee on Sport and Recreation - MAY – DECEMBER 2004

2. COMMITTEE: PC ON SPORT AND RECREATION

   CHAIRPERSON: Mr. B M Komphela

   MANDATE OF THE COMMITTEE:

   VISION: To oversee the realization of an active and winning nation as well as to ensure that sport, as a whole, is accessible to all in particular the disadvantaged masses in the townships and rural areas.

   MISSION: To oversee that sport and recreation is being placed at the forefront to address issues of national importance, such as unemployment, under development, poverty, economic development, as well as individual and community health. Above all, it contributes to nation building.

   1. List of Entities reporting to the Committee

      1. Boxing South Africa (BSA) established in terms of the Boxing and Wrestling Control Act, 1954 (Act No 39 of 1954 as amended) is responsible for controlling and regulating boxing in the Republic of South Africa.
      2. The South African Sport Commission (SASC) established in terms of the South African Sports Commission Act, 1998 (Act No 109 of 1998 as amended) to administer sport and recreation under the guidance of the Minister and to promote and develop sport and recreation.
      3. The South African Institute for Drug Free Sport established in terms of the South African Institute for Drug Free Sport Act, 1997 (Act No 14 of 1997) to promote the participation in sport free from prohibited substances and to counteract doping in sport.

3. Chairperson’s overview (summary for the year)

   Key activities: The Committee worked well together as a team despite political differences. There were challenges relating to understanding the aim, objective and a need of transforming the sport fraternity in the country amongst the political parties. The committee has a big challenge of visiting provinces to determine understanding of their IDPs in relation to MIG for development of basic sport facilities. Also to determine their preparedness and mass participation development programme to feed for 2010 development. The provinces that have been visited are KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Gauteng, Northern Cape, Free State and North West. During the visit the Committee experienced a huge backlog of access to facilities.

   The Committee has dealt with all the activities planned for in the programme for the year. The Chairperson wishes to extend a word of appreciation to members of the Committee who participated in the all the committee activities despite many other commitments. A word of appreciation also goes to the staff members supporting the Committee.

4. Core objectives (responsibilities)

   As part of the oversight role the committee has to increase the levels of participation of South Africans in sport and recreation activities, to raise the profile of sport and recreation amongst decision makers; to increase the probability of success of South Africa’s sportspersons and teams in major international competitions and to place sport and recreation at the forefront of efforts to address issues of national importance, such as unemployment, poverty, economic development, and individual and community health.

   Composition of sub-committees:

5. Legislation (briefings and hearings) None

   1. Matters other than mandated legislation None

   2. International agreements None

   3. Papers referred to the Committee

      1. Paper referred to the Committee on (ATC Wed 20 October 2004 page 915) The report of the Auditor-General for consideration.
      2. The Reports of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements is referred to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts for consideration

   (a) Report and Financial Statements of Vote 20 – Department of Sport and Recreation for 2003-2004, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote 20 for 2003-2004.

   (b) Report on Financial Statements of the South African Sports Commission for 2003 – 2004, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2003 – 2004. (ATC Thursday, 4 November 2004, page 1108)

   1. Hearings on of national interest, if any…

The Committee conducted Budget Hearings with SRSA; Heads of Provincial Departments and provincial Chairpersons of Standing Committees; SAIDS; USSASA; SASC; DISSA and Gymnastic SA. [Report published on ATC dated 14 June 2004]

Recommendations:

        • To interrogate study tour reports since most of the issues
          highlighted by the provinces also appear in the reports
        • To look at bilateral agreement such as the Cuban Model of mass
          participation and what assistance can be requested from Cuba.
        • The President offered to accompany the former Minister of
          Sport to the Minister of Finance to acquire more funds and the
          Committee will follow that offer up. To reactivate that offer
          since we have become aware of the fact that our budget is
          equal to 40c per child per year.
        • To hold a workshop instead of study tours to provinces to
          decide on inputs that would be used to influence change in the
          budget and to make an input to the MTEF that will be finalized
          in August by Sport and Recreation South Africa.

1. Oversight 1. Visit to KwaZulu – Natal from 9 to 12 August 2004 2. Objectives or focus areas:
2. To promote participation of South Africans in local and international sport and recreation programmes through own programmes and funding of associated organizations and to monitor the impact on communities.
3. Mass participation is directly driven at national level as a major policy initiative. Meetings and in loco visits will take place at points of implementation of the Siyadlala programme
4. Visits to key nodal areas where community mass participation programmes have been launched by SRSA and development plans for the Indigenous Games and mass participation programmes for the disabled and women
5. Meetings with local USSASA structures to discuss challenges facing them in the implementation of the national programme and funding, USSASA plans to implement the school sport programme and the desired funding model and mechanism
6. Meetings with the key federations (soccer, cricket, rugby) that are funded by SRSA and evaluation of their development programmes in relation to performance target commitments given to SRSA
7. Meeting the local sport councils and management committees of the provincial academy at the universities in the provinces on their admission/selection criteria and programmes, linkages to the national academy and sources of funding in terms of corporate entities Meeting with sport councils to establish their involvement in national events such as the 2010 World Cup; to learn of the challenges they experience in relation to national lottery disbursement agency pertaining to sport and recreation; also their plans they have for rural areas because sport councils are a direct responsibility of the national department and to find out how they are resourced by the department and sport councils were established in terms of the Sport Commission
8. Meeting with an expert on recreational issues on a researched study into recreation in South Africa.

9. Visiting areas where Building for Sport and Recreation programme is implemented, evaluation on the efficacy of the programme with regards to mass community participation and determining the state of readiness of local structures to become implementing agents for the programme.

   1. Findings:

   ❖ Workshop should be conducted to clarify issues on sport structures in the province. The readiness of the province for 2010 Soccer World Cup. Monitoring of municipalities on concentrating to all sport codes not soccer only. ❖ Clarity on the placement of USSASA. Fees paid by school affiliated to USSASA and the role of USSASA in relation to former Model C schools that are not participating in competitions or not affiliated to USSASA. ❖ Accessibility of Lottery Fund and the issues of a three-year audited statement to be looked at seriously. ❖ Re-introduction or activation of sport councils in the province. ❖ Maintenance, monitoring and accountability on built facilities. ❖ Inclusion of sport as part of education curriculum. ❖ Lack of affordable transporting for players to attend games or matches within the province. ❖ Developed players disappear without being monitored or placed in a right team. No accountability or follow-up of players after being developed. ❖ Less involvement of teachers to identify talents at schools during physical education due to abolition of physical education and Wednesday matches. ❖ Lack of transformation programmes, development programmes and succession plans for building young teams visible but only debated and end in the boardrooms. ❖ Not enough programmes on mass participation and school sport. ❖ All municipalities want to have stadium built or renovated in their areas. ❖ Not enough training for coaches and referees. ❖ Federations are not applying to Lottery Distribution Fund Agency. ❖ Lack of information sharing amongst federations, stakeholders and NGOs. ❖ Women sport not active in the province. ❖ Still racial tensions exist in different sport codes.

RECOMMENDATIONS: The Committee decided to make recommendations after visited other provinces to prepare for a debate in the House including all provinces visited.

1. Oversight visit to Limpopo. Mpumalanga and Gauteng from 3 to 14 October 2004

Same objectives as KwaZulu-Natal

FINDINGS

The Committee identified the following issues: ❑ Lack of national policy on school sport. ❑ Patriotism vs sterling pound - The clubs that have more crowds than the national team. What can be done to address this issue? ❑ High expectation and demand on sport facilities for the rural areas even if its open grounds. ❑ Glenmore in Mpumalanga don’t have water or sanitation and not possible to have toilets in the facilities. ❑ The communities argue that BSRP created jobs and what is MIG going to provide? ❑ Workshop should be conducted to clarify issues on sport structures in the province. The readiness of the province for 2010 Soccer World Cup. Monitoring and addressing municipalities that are not concentrating to all sport codes but soccer only. ❑ Clarity on the placement of USSASA. Final negotiations should be discussed with the stakeholders. Fees paid by school affiliated to USSASA and the role of USSASA in relation to former Model C schools that are not participating in competitions or not affiliated to USSASA. ❑ Accessibility of Lottery Fund and the issues of the two-year audited statement to be looked at seriously. ❑ Re-introduction or activation of sport councils in some provinces and information on why they were established and what their responsibilities are. ❑ Inclusion of sport as part of education curriculum. ❑ Lack of affordable transport for players to attend games or matches within the provinces. ❑ Mechanism should be devised to track down developed players and be monitored. A database should be available. ❑ Less involvement of teachers to identify talents at schools during physical education due to abolition of physical education and Wednesday matches. ❑ Lack of transformation programmes, development programmes and succession plans for building young teams visible should not be debated in the boardrooms and not implemented. ❑ Not enough developed programmes on mass participation and school sport. ❑ All municipalities want to have stadium built or renovated in their areas. ❑ Not enough training for coaches and referees. ❑ Lack of information sharing amongst federations, stakeholders and NGOs. ❑ Women sport not active in the provinces. ❑ Racial tensions between different sport codes. ❑ Cross border issue ❑ Challenges with karate, cricket and rugby. ❑ The existence of racial tension in certain sporting codes and the continuing reluctance of certain former ‘Model C’ schools to become affiliated to USSASA.

1. RECOMMENDATIONS

• Finalisation of the Transformation Charter on Sport by Sport and Recreation South Africa (SRSA) in order to provide a blueprint for South African sport at national, provincial and local levels. • The Standing Committee on Sport in the provinces are encouraged to embark on oversight visits in their respective provinces and to build strong relationships with local municipalities. • Activating and instituting local sport councils in municipalities to serve as integral consultative forums of the community in order to inform municipal priorities and create a sense of local ownership. • The Lottery Distribution Agency for sport must embark on a public education campaign to familiarise communities on the guidelines and requirements for accessing the fund. The stringent requirements of the distribution agency must be reviewed in order to allow for greater access and to prevent unallocated funds to be returned to the National Treasury. The 10% allocation to sport by National Lottery must be reviewed; an increase in allocation to 20% is proposed in order to meet the huge developmental challenges in sport. • The 2010 Soccer World Cup governance structure must be finalised as a matter of urgency. Currently, local authorities and provinces have high expectations to host World Cup matches and embarked on various organisational and logistical initiatives which are uncoordinated and confusing. • SRSA must enter into negotiations with the Department of Mineral and Energy Affairs and reach agreement on the possible utilisation of sport facilities and properties owned by mining companies, by local communities. • The exorbitant fees charged by local municipalities for utilisation of facilities, even those built by SRSA, is a major source of concern. Municipalities must review their hiring fees structure in order to improve accessibility and usage. • Municipalities are also called upon to review long-term leases (i.e. 99- year, 50-year, etc) granted to private clubs before the 1997 Constitution of the Republic of South Africa was adopted. • SRSA must provide clarity on the future model for school sport in South Africa and the role of school sport organisations (e.g. USSASA) in sport. • There is uncertainty on the possible effect the Municipal Infrastructure Grant (MIG) will have on the provision of sport facilities. According to stakeholders, The Building for Sport and Recreation Programme (BSRP) of SRSA created jobs in local communities while at the same time providing much needed facilities. In order to continue the aims and objectives of the BSRP it is recommended that funds earmarked for sport facility development in MIG be ring fenced for that specific purpose. • Federations must be urged to demarcate their boundaries according to the political boundaries of the country and align their structures and operations accordingly.

 1. Annual Reports
 2. Boxing South Africa presented its Annual Report 2002/03 on 2
    November 2004 to the Committee
 3. Implementation of legislation
 4. Institutional Oversight


❖ Briefing by SRSA on Strategic Plans on 01.06.2004 and Budget Vote 20
  on 04.06.2004
❖ Briefing by SASC and SAIDS on Budget 0n 04.06.2004
❖ Briefing by BSA on Annual Report 0n 02.11.2004
❖ Briefing by SRSA on Annual Report on 09.11.2004
❖ Briefing by federations on their development programmes and
  transformation progress.

    3. Internationals
  None    4. Committee activities

1. Invitations for Chairperson |CHAIRPERSON |DATE |VENUE | |1. Mr. Komphela [MINMEC] |13 June 2004 |Sports Commission, | | | |Pretoria | |2. Mr. Komphela |21 – 29 September 2004|Athens (Paralympics) |

2. Conferences None
3. Any other

Outstanding matters: • Briefing by Premier Soccer League on mechanisms in place for safety at stadiums • Golf federation to brief the Committee on matters affecting golf in the country and reasons for lack of development. • Joint meeting with PC on Education to discuss issues of school sport. • Briefing by Sport Science Institute on development programmes • Presentation by SCIR on research done in relation to sport issues and the benefit of federations for the research. • Study tour to Australia and France to learn and interact on challenges experience during hosting of World Cup and spin offs after the hosting. Korea-Japan to determine the reasons that led them to demolish stadiums built during the Soccer World Cup in preparation for 2010 Soccer World Cup in South Africa.

1. Financial statements

    a. Provincial visits |Period     |Purpose of visit     |Names of Members |Number  |Date Report  |Costs        | |           |                     |                 |of Staff|Tabled       |             | |9-12 August|The visit was to     |Mr. B M Komphela |1       |Published in |R59 818.00   | |2004       |measure their        |(ANC)            |        |the ATC on 27|             | |           |readiness for 2010   |Mr. M M Dikgacwi |        |September    |             | |           |and whether the      |(ANC)            |        |2004         |             | |           |monies paid by Sport |Mr C T Frolick   |        |             |             | |           |and Recreation South |(ANC)            |        |             |             | |           |Africa (SRSA) to     |Mr T J Louw (ANC)|        |             |             | |           |federations reach the|Mr. E Mtshali    |        |             |             | |           |clubs in the         |(ANC)            |        |             |             | |           |provinces as it is   |Gen B H Holomisa |        |             |             | |           |suppose to be and    |(UDM)            |        |             |             | |           |challenges           |Mr. C B Herandien|        |             |             | |           |experienced. The     |(NNP)            |        |             |             | |           |Committee was also   |Mr R Bhoola (MF) |        |             |             | |           |checking at the      |                 |        |             |             | |           |conditions of        |                 |        |             |             | |           |facilities built by  |                 |        |             |             | |           |SRSA and the         |                 |        |             |             | |           |accessibility of     |                 |        |             |             | |           |those facilities and |                 |        |             |             | |           |also to measure the  |                 |        |             |             | |           |reality against      |                 |        |             |             | |           |SRSA’s programmes.   |                 |        |             |             | |           |                     |                 |        |             |             | |3–14       |Same as the above    |Mr B M Komphela  |1       |Not yet      |R178 616.00  | |October    |                     |(NC)             |        |tabled.      |             | |2004       |                     |Mr C T Frolick   |        |             |             | |           |                     |(ANC)            |        |             |             | |           |                     |Mr M M Dikgacwi  |        |             |             | |           |                     |(ANC)            |        |             |             | |           |                     |Mr T J Louw (ANC)|        |             |             | |           |                     |Ms D M Morobi    |        |             |             | |           |                     |(ANC)            |        |             |             | |           |                     |Ms M M           |        |             |             | |           |                     |Ramakaba-Lesia   |        |             |             | |           |                     |(ANC)            |        |             |             | |           |                     |Mr E Mtshali     |        |             |             | |           |                     |(ANC)            |        |             |             | |           |                     |Mr S J Masango   |        |             |             | |           |                     |(DA)             |        |             |             | |           |                     |Rev SMS          |        |             |             | |           |                     |Khumalo(ACDP)    |        |             |             |
   

   1. Catering = R19 017.60
   2. Oversight – R230 117.00

2. Appendices

Democratic Alliance |Lee, Mr. T D |23 June 2004 | | |Masango, Mr. S J |23 June 2004 | |

Inkatha Freedom Party |Zikalala, Ms C N Z |23 June 2004 | | |Mr. B W Dlamini | | |

United Democratic Movement |Holomisa, Mr. B H |23 June 2004 | | | | | |

Independent Democrats |Gore, Mr. V C |23 June 2004 | | | | | |

New National Party |Herandien, Mr. C B |23 June 2004 | | | | | |

African Christian Democratic Party |Khumalo, Rev M S |23 June 2004 | | | | | |

Minority Front |Bhoola, Mr. R B* |23 June 2004 | | | | | |

1. SUPPORT STAFF:

   2.1 CONTROL COMMITTEE SECRETARY: TENDA MADIMA [September 2000 to date] 2.2 COMMITTEE SECRETARY: NTOMBEKHAYA MBUQE [June 2002 to date] 2.3 COMMITTEE ASSISTANT: NTHABISENG BOROTHO [May 2001 to date ] 2.4 TRANSCRIPTION TYPIST: CHARLENE SHELDON [2003 to date] 2.5 SECRETARY TO CHAIRPERSON: BETSIE VENTER [June 2004 to date] 2.6 RESEARCHER (RESEARCH UNIT): FARIEDA KHAN [2002 to date]

Adopted by the Committee on 25 February 2005.

Signed 25/02/2005 …………………………………. …………. COMMITTEE SECRETARY DATE Ntombekhaya Mbuqe

Signed 25/02/2005 …………………………………………….. ………….. CONTROL COMMITTEE SECRETARY DATE Tenda Madima

Signed 25/02/2005 …………………………………… …………….. COMMITTEE CHAIRPERSON DATE B M Komphela

                         MONDAY, 30 MAY 2005

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism

 (1)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 30 May 2005 in terms of
     Joint Rule 160(3), classified the following Bills as section 75
     Bills:


        (i)   Prevention of Illegal Eviction from and Unlawful
          Occupation of Land Amendment Bill [B 11 – 2005] (National
          Assembly – sec 75)


        (ii)  Re-determination of the Boundaries of Cross-Boundary
          Municipalities Bill [B 12 – 2005] (National Assembly – sec
          75)


        (iii) South African Sports Commission Act Repeal Bill [B 13 –
          2005] (National Assembly – sec 75)

1. Translations of Bills submitted

 (1)    The Minister of Finance


        i) uMthetho woKwabiwa kweziMali zoMbuso [UM 8 – 2005] (National
           Assembly – sec 76)


     This is the official translation into isiZulu of the Division of
     Revenue Bill [B 8 – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 76).

National Assembly

1. Designation of Acting Speaker and Acting Deputy Speaker

   The Speaker announced that, as both the Deputy Speaker and herself would be absent from Parliament from 31 May to 5 June 2005, she has designated House Chairperson N P Nhleko as Acting Speaker and House Chairperson G Q M Doidge as Acting Deputy Speaker for the period 31 May to 5 June 2005, in accordance with the resolution adopted by the House on 24 June 2004.

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs

   Report and Financial Statements of the Commission on Restitution of Land Rights for 2004-2005 [RP 49-2005].

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Assembly

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local Government on the Re-determination of the Boundaries of Cross-Boundary Municipalities Bill [B 12 - 2005] (National Assembly – sec 75), dated 24 May 2005:

     The Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local Government,    having considered the subject of the Re-determination of the    Boundaries of Cross-Boundary Municipalities Bill [B 12 - 2005]    (National Assembly – sec 75), referred to it and classified by the    Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, reports the Bill    without amendment.
   

2. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Sport and Recreation on the South African Sports Commission Act Repeal Bill [B 13 - 2005] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 25 May 2005:

     The Portfolio Committee on Sport and Recreation, having    considered the subject of the South African Sports Commission Act    Repeal Bill [B 13 - 2005] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to    it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75    Bill, reports the Bill with amendments [B 13A - 2005]
   
   
                     TUESDAY, 31 MAY 2005
   

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly

1. Referrals to committees of papers tabled

   The following papers have been tabled and are now referred to the relevant committees as mentioned below:

 (1)    The following paper is referred to the Standing Committee on
     Public Accounts and the Ad Hoc Committee on the Auditor-General
     for consideration:


   Report on the Budget and Strategic Plan of the Auditor-General for
     2005/06 [RP 38 of 2005].


 (2)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance for consideration and report:


        (a)   Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South
          Africa and the Government of the Republic of Turkey regarding
          Mutual Assistance between their Customs Administrations,
          tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.


        (b)   Explanatory Memorandum to the Agreement between the
          Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government
          of the Republic of Turkey regarding Mutual Assistance between
          their Customs Administrations.


        (c)   Agreement between the Republic of South Africa and the
          Republic of Turkey for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and
          the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on
          Income, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the
          Constitution, 1996.


        (d)   Explanatory Memorandum to the Agreement between the
          Republic of South Africa and the Republic of Turkey for the
          Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal
          Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income.


        (e)   Convention between the Government of the Republic of South
          Africa and the Government of the Republic of Gabon for the
          Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal
          Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income, tabled in terms of
          section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.


        (f)   Explanatory Memorandum on the Convention between the
          Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government
          of the Republic of Gabon for the Avoidance of Double Taxation
          and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on
          Income.


        (g)   Convention between the Government of the Republic of South
          Africa and the Government of the Republic of Ghana for the
          Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal
          Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income and on Capital Gains,
          tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.


        (h)   Explanatory Memorandum to the Convention between the
          Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government
          of the Republic of Ghana for the Avoidance of Double Taxation
          and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on
          Income and on Capital Gains.


        (i)   Convention between the Government of the Republic of South
          Africa and the Government of the Democratic Republic of Congo
          for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of
          Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income, tabled in
          terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996 (Act No 108
          of 1996).


        (j)   Explanatory Memorandum on the Double Taxation Convention
          between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and
          the Democratic Republic of the Congo.


        (k)   Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South
          Africa and the Government of the Kingdom of Norway regarding
          Mutual Assistance between their Customs Administrations,
          tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996
          (Act No 108 of 1996).


        (l)   Explanatory Memorandum on the Customs Agreement between
          the Republic of South Africa and the Kingdom of Norway.


 (3)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Education for consideration:


   Strategic Plan of the Department of Education for 2005 to 2010.


 (4)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Arts and Culture for consideration:


   Strategic Plan of the Department of Arts and Culture for 2005 to
     2010.


 (5)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Correctional Services:


   White Paper on Corrections in South Africa – February 2005.


 (6)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Public Service and Administration for consideration.


   Report on the State of Performance Management Systems in the South
     African Public Service – July 2004 [RP 199-2004].


 (7)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Home Affairs:


   A list of approved early naturalisation applications in terms of
     section 5(9) of the South African Citizenship Act, 1995 (Act No 88
     of 1995).


 (8)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Justice and Constitutional Development:


        (a)   Proclamation No R.13 published in Government Gazette No
          27406 dated 22 March 2005: Commencement of the Judicial
          Matters Second Amendment Act, 2003 (Act No 55 of 2003).


        (b)   Government Notice No R.250 published in Government gazette
          No 27406 dated 22 March 2005: Amendment of Regulation in
          terms of the Judges Remuneration and Conditions of Employment
          Act, 2001 (Act No 47 of 2001).


        (c)   Government Notice No R.251 published in Government Gazette
          No 27406 dated 22 March 2005: Amendment of Mediation in
          Divorce Matters Regulation in terms of the Mediation in
          Certain Divorce Matters Act, 1987 (Act No 24 of 1987).


 (9)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Provincial and Local Government and the Standing Committee on
     Public Accounts for consideration:


   General Report of the Auditor-General on Provincial Audit Outcomes
     for 2003-2004 [RP 42-2005].


 (10)   The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Transport for consideration:


        (a)   Accession to the Convention for the Suppression of
          Unlawful Acts against the Safety Maritime Navigation and to
          the Protocol for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts against the
          Safety of Fixed Platforms Located on the Continental Shelf,
          tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996
          (Act No 108 of 1996).


        (b)   Explanatory Memorandum to the Accession to the Convention
          for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts against the Safety of
          Maritime Navigation and to the Protocol for the Safety of
          Unlawful Acts against the Safety of Fixed Platforms Located
          on the Continental Shelf.


 (11)   The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Transport:


   Bilateral Air Service Agreement between the Government of the
     Republic of South Africa and the Great Socialist People’s Libyan
     Arab Jamahiriya for Scheduled Air Services Between their
     Territories and Beyond, Government, tabled in terms of section
     231(3) of the Constitution, 1996 (Act No 108 of 1996).


 (12)   The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Justice and Constitutional Development for consideration and
     report:


        (a)   Report on the provisional suspension from office of senior
          magistrate Mr M J S Nhleko.


        (b)   Report on the provisional suspension from office of
          magistrate Mr R Ameer.


        (c)   Report on the provisional suspension from office of
          magistrate Mr M K Chauke.


        (d)   Report on the provisional suspension from office of
          magistrate Mr M S Makamu.


        (e)   Report on the provisional suspension from office of
          magistrate Mr L D Monageng.


          f) Report on the provisional suspension from office of
             magistrate Mr S E Tebe.

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Finance

   Government Notice No 868 published in Government Gazette No 27636 dated 30 May 2005: Municipal Supply Chain Management Regulations in terms of the Local Government: Municipal Finance Management Act, 2003 (Act No 56 of 2003).

2. The Minister for Provincial and Local Government

   Strategic Plan of the Department of Provincial and Local Government for 2005 to 2010.

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Assembly

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Agriculture and Land Affairs on the Sectional Titles Amendment Bill [B 10 - 2005] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 31 May 2005:

   The Portfolio Committee on Agriculture and Land Affairs, having considered the subject of the Sectional Titles Amendment Bill [B 10

   • 2005] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, reports the Bill with an amendment [B10A - 2005].