WEDNESDAY, 31 AUGUST 2005 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

                                ____

The House met at 15:02.

The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

                   PRECEDENCE TO ORDER OF THE DAY


                         (Draft Resolution)

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:

That, notwithstanding Rule 29(8) and Rule 113(1), precedence be given to the motion on the Order Paper in the name of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party.

Agreed to.

APPRECIATION EXPRESSED TO MR N P NHLEKO ON HIS DEPARTURE FROM PARLIAMENT

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Deputy Speaker, I move the motion printed in my name on the Order Paper:

That the House places on record –

  In the light of the Hon Mr N P Nhleko, MP, leaving Parliament
  on 1 September 2005, its appreciation of the distinguished
  service that he has rendered to this Parliament since 1994,
  especially in the leadership role that he has played as
  Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and
  Administration, the Chief Whip of the Majority Party and as the
  House Chairperson in charge of building the oversight role of
  Parliament.

Agreed to.

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY:

Questions to Minister:

                High number of unsolved murder cases

1. Mr V B Ndlovu (IFP) asked the Minister of Safety and Security:

    1) Whether, in light of reports that more than 10 000 murders
       have gone unsolved in the past year, the SA Police Service
       has any plans in place to try to rectify the situation; if
       not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;
   

   (2) what are some of the reasons for the high number of unsolved murder cases;

   (3) whether the SAPS has the necessary resources to adequately deal with and thoroughly investigate each of the many murders that take place each year; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? N1779E

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Deputy Speaker, hon Ndlovu, I am worried about the number which is reflected in your question – 10 000 murders that have gone unsolved. I don’t know where this figure comes from. So, I’ll respond to you, but not to the figures. I’ll respond to you with respect to the other points you have raised in your question.

The following is already in place to deal with matters of this nature: In the first instance, we have the automated fingerprint identification system, which is assisting us to identify perpetrators of crime. We find some of these perpetrators of crime when we mount roadblocks and we use the MorphoTouch where we are able to pick up fingerprints of people who may have been involved in any crimes.

We match the automated fingerprints, therefore, that we find to the various crime scenes where they might be connected. We utilise the IB system; we utilise DNA testing, and so on, to ensure that we are indeed able to resolve outstanding investigations that we have.

Of course, there are some cases that still remain unsolved, including murder, and this happens in the main because there are no eyewitnesses who are available, and some eyewitnesses do not want to come forward for fear of intimidation. At times, the perpetrators themselves are not known, because some of them are not even South African citizens and, at times, there is purely an absence of the evidence and clues that we require for the investigations.

Of course, there are initiatives that are in place that are designed to address some of the problems we have relevant to human and logistical resources. The management forum of the SA Police Service has given instructions that at least 30% of all entry-level constables from each intake that we have must be experienced detectives so that we can carry forward the experience that they have. This is so that in the end we will find that contingent of experienced people who will participate together with those who have been recruited into the Service when we investigate.

Mr V B NDLOVU: Thank you, Minister. I just want to mention one case – the case of Mrs Sabina McKinnough. She said that nothing has been done about her husband who was killed in front of her. There was no feedback from the investigator and, up to now, no arrest has been made. I mention this, because other people read these stories in the papers. It would be wise of us, therefore, to talk about it here, and to give the assurance to those people who sometimes the investigators do not go to.

I am worried because if the investigators do not go to the people who are the complainants and tell them what has been going on about the investigations, sometimes the burden is on the investigators themselves, instead of the people who are supposed to be witnesses.

Ngiyavumelana nomhlonishwa ngokuthi mhlawumbe ofakazi babuye babaleke. Nokho, okusemqoka kakhulu ukuthi izihlobo nezizalwane zalabo bantu abasengxakini kufanele ngaso sonke isikhathi baziswe ngokwenzekayo, kungavele kucwebe nje isiziba. Ekugcineni babuye bathi amaphoyisa awenzi lutho. Ngiyabonga.[Kuphele isikhathi.] (Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.)

[I agree with the hon Minister that sometimes witnesses disappear. It is important that families and relatives of the victims should always be informed about developments and not be left in the dark. They will eventually blame the police for having done nothing. Thank you. [Time expired.]]

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Thank you very much. There have been some questions posed by the hon members here; not in the House, but I have received correspondence from a number of them, where they raised similar problems – the investigating officers have not gone back to give feedback to people.

I have responded to a number of such letters and, in the great majority of cases – I am sure members can attest to this – the investigating officers have actually gone back to give feedback. But, somehow, people still say that no feedback has been forthcoming.

In instances, of course, where no feedback has been given, we have told the police that when they investigate, they should give feedback to people. In cases where this is happening, it is not because there is a directive or there is deliberate intention on the part of investigating officers to withhold information from people who ought to know about the investigations.

On other occasions the Police have indicated to us that they do not want to regularly go back and give feedback because, at times, that information that they place in the hands of family members at times filters back to the very people that are under investigation. But, in cases where, quite clearly, there is deliberateness on the part of the police, we intervene, and we accept that there are cases like that. Thank you very much.

Mr R JANKIELSOHN: Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, the greatest deterrent to criminals is the certainty of detection and punishment. The forensic laboratories in our criminal records centre are crucial in the process of detecting criminals and obtaining convictions. Currently, there are shortages of 91 posts in the criminal records centre, and there are 544 vacancies in our forensic laboratories. At the same time it is also reported that we are also assisting 12 SADC countries with forensic support.

Minister, we experience about 20 000 murders a year. What is government doing about this specific problem in our forensic laboratories and criminal records centre so that we can increase our detection and conviction rates, and bring down the high rate of murder in South Africa? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Thank you very much. I am sure that we all appreciate the fact that there is never going to come a time in South Africa, or anywhere else in the world, where no crime will be committed.

The law enforcement agencies then have to put systems in place that deal with those matters. The fact that not everything you have is commensurate with the number of people you want to deal with is a fact of life. What should be accepted, as a fact here, is that the crime trends in South Africa are going down, and this is as a result of the good investigations that our detectives and other members of the SA Police Service are doing.

Yes, there will be weaknesses with respect to the various levels of our crime-fighting programmes, but the fact of the matter is that we are not in the kind of situation where we will throw our hands up in the air and say that we are unable to move forward.

We are moving forward, and we are bringing crime down in South Africa. We have the various elements that relate to crime fighting that are available. Some of them have been mentioned by the hon member. It is through those very components of our crime-fighting machinery that we have been able to reduce crime to the extent that we have been able to.

Rev K R J MESHOE: Deputy Speaker, we know that, because of the many cases of murder that go unsolved, some families hire private investigators. Christiaan Botha, the East London-based private investigator, who has solved two seemingly insolvable Gauteng murders, says that unsolved murders are a big problem in the country.

Recently, Mr Botha took a month to solve a murder case that police bungled despite a year-and-a-half of investigations. He hunted down the killers of 36-year-old Deon de Villiers of Boksburg who was stabbed 37 times, had his throat cut and was beaten with a rock. The two killers were convicted in June.

What I would like to know, hon Minister, is whether you have considered meeting with such successful private investigators to find out what they are doing that makes them successful where our own police are failing, taking into consideration the specific case I mentioned. We do not want to see members of the public losing confidence in our police, and therefore turning to private investigators in large numbers because they are desperate and want the murderers of their loved ones to be arrested and convicted. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Well, I have confidence in members of the SA Police Service. I am not going to go to anyone and say to them, ``Please tell us what you do that makes you more successful than the Police’’. You should understand also, surely, that if I want my services to be employed by people, I must advertise. One way of advertising will be to say the kinds of things that you mentioned here, which come from the particular individual.

It must be understood that the police . . . we have among the best investigators in the world. People who are involved in crime-fighting will tell you this; it doesn’t matter whether they are Americans, Brits or whoever. They will tell you that South Africa has among the best-trained investigators in the world. I am satisfied that they do their work.

The fact that one person goes after one solitary matter and uses two or three months and gets to the bottom of the matter in the end does not reflect what is happening in the SA Police Service. We are in charge of a country here. We are dealing with everybody. We do not take just one case and get one person on that case for as many months as you have quoted.

I have confidence in the ability of the members of the SA Police Service, but so do our people. Thank you.

Ms M M SOTYU: Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, the ANC government is committed to solving each and every murder case with the same commitment. It is therefore necessary that we ensure in our oversight role that communities receive the quality service that they deserve.

Minister, as you quite rightly say, it is not clear where this figure of 10 000 comes from, or even how it is determined. Can the Minister please explain, for the benefit of the House, that a murder case cannot necessarily be solved and result in conviction in the same year, as it seems the process of justice is misunderstood by some members. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: You are quite correct. Apart from what you said, members also ought to know this. There is no crime that has been committed the file of which, willy-nilly, gets closed. Murder cases will be investigated until the perpetrators are found. We do not simply take that docket and lock it up in an archive. We do not do that. So, it does not matter that there are people who will say that there are these cases. For as long as we have not brought anybody to book, those cases and those dockets remain open. Thank you.

            Military justice in SA National Defence Force

1. Prof A K Asmal (ANC) asked the Minister of Defence:

   (1) What (a) are the relevant details in respect of the enquiry into military justice in the SA National Defence Force which he instituted in 2004 and (b) progress has been made with regard to representivity in the military justice system since 2004;

 (2)    whether his department has given any consideration to
       instituting an ombudsperson for the SANDF; if not, why not?
                                                    N1637E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Madam Speaker, the reply is as follows:

The Minister of Defence set up a ministerial task team in 2004 to provide him with advice on how the military legal system could be transformed with particular reference to, firstly, the independence of the judiciary; secondly, the independence of the prosecuting authority; thirdly, whether the military legal system should be staffed by military personnel only: whether there was a role for civilians and, if so, whether there would be a need for specific training; fourthly, who should provide oversight over the administration; five, the independence of the SA National Defence Force – what remedial measures are to be taken where there have been breaches of the constitutional, statutory or policy prescripts, the constitutionality of some of the penalties imposed by the military courts, the implementation of penalties, and the possibility of overlapping jurisdiction.

The task team completed this mandate in April 2005. The internal process for interrogating the recommendations of the task team was finalised in August 2005. The process going forward in implementing the recommendations is to amend the existing Military Discipline Supplementary Measures Act, Act 16 of 1999, or to repeal the said Act and come up with a new Act. The Council of Defence in August 2005 mandated the task team to proceed with the implementation of its recommendations.

Regarding part (b) of the question, since 2004 efforts have been made to reach prescribed representative targets within the military justice system. An action plan has been developed, and it is being implemented. Over the period January 2004 to August 2005, 10 new military legal practitioners were appointed, of which nine were from previously disadvantaged communities - eight blacks, one Indian and one white. Another 16 appointments are pending, of which 14 will be from the previously disadvantaged communities.

Reaching gender representivity in the military justice system is still a challenge. However, this is a matter the department is constantly seeking to address.

The answer to the second part of the question is: Yes, in terms of the Defence Review and the White Paper on Defence, the ombudsperson is to be an independent person that is appointed and reports to Parliament. It was initially intended that this be a dedicated office similar to that of the Public Protector who argued that his office had a legal and constitutional mandate to deal with matters pertaining to the abuse of power by any organ of state, including the armed forces.

A post was then created in the establishment of the Public Protector to deal specifically with military issues. The Public Protector does not refer to this person as the military ombudsman, but as an investigator charged with military matters.

We have an extensive reply, a copy of which has already been given to Prof Kader Asmal. Thank you very much.

Prof A K ASMAL: Deputy Speaker, I thank the Deputy Minister for his reply. The portfolio committee has spent an enormous amount of time looking at these two issues brought before the House. Only yesterday we had a great meeting with the equal opportunity and affirmative action advisory board, whom the Deputy Minister has met.

They said to us, and I quote: “There is an urgent need for a responsive dispute resolution and grievance procedure in the SA National Defence Force.” Mechanisms and concerns were noted regarding the existence of discrimination and the effectiveness of the military justice system.

Now in the past few months we’ve had a number of hearings on these issues, and the Deputy Minister would be aware that the portfolio committee has submitted a draft Bill to the department, which we understand the department is looking at.

Of course it is quite clear to the portfolio committee that the issue of investigating and dealing with legitimate complaints, if we count all this as machinery, is cumbersome, complex, adulatory and unresponsive, and severely compromises military discipline, especially when the machinery, culture and attitudes do not reflect basic constitutional principles and the principles of Batho Pele.

So, on behalf of the portfolio committee, I would ask the Deputy Minister to discuss the issue with the Minister as to the publication of the report you mentioned on the military justice system, so that we can have a public discussion before legislation is prepared; and, secondly, that urgent consideration be given to what the White Paper or the Tempe report said when the unfortunate incidents took place there, led by the Defence Force, namely that there should be a military ombudsperson.

We hope that he will give consideration to that, particularly since our own investigation of the Public Protector clearly showed us that the Public Protector’s jurisdiction was not extensive enough, was not supported by an effective staff and did not meet the needs of genuine, legitimate complaints of the Defence Force. I hope the Deputy Minister therefore will consider the cry from the heart from the portfolio committee. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Deputy Speaker, the issues raised by Prof Kader Asmal will definitely be attended to by the department, especially by the Council of Defence. We have already started the process. We wanted to make sure that before we even took the matter to the portfolio committee we were sure of what we wanted to achieve.

It is a fact that there is a problem in terms of dispute resolution and our grievance procedures. Firstly, they take too long. This is one of the issues that we must address. Of course, there are also problems in that the Defence Force is in South Africa and South Africa unfortunately has inherited a system of discrimination and racial problems.

We are in a process at the moment of dealing with this matter. As I said in my first response, we only took a decision this month and we are now going to be able to see whether we can publish. But probably before we do that, we would have to meet with the portfolio committee and make a presentation to them before we publish the report. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Adv Z L MADASA: Deputy Speaker, the hon Asmal has really taken the words out of my mouth. Nonetheless, I would still like to stress the importance of the department expediting the matter of the reform of the justice system in the army, because the problems that have arisen – not this year, not last year, but long ago – go to the crux of the matter, which is the ill discipline in the army.

Cases that have been pending for two to three years are unresolved and are, in fact, unfair charges. So we do not even know whether the charges are legitimate, let alone the outcome of the investigations. This matter is really urgent if the department wishes to bring discipline to bear on the SA National Defence Force. You don’t have to answer this as I’m just making a statement. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Thank you very much, Mr Madasa. The issue of transforming the military justice system is one of our priorities. We’ve had a number of meetings, because it is a very complicated matter. We also have a problem in that sometimes even the judges are not easily available.

But, especially as you’re a legal person, I would have been happier if your choice of words had been different. I do not want to agree with you that there is ill discipline in the army. There are frustrations, especially among the lower ranks of our Defence Force, primarily because of the time the disputes and grievances take to be addressed. So I wouldn’t like people to leave here with the impression that there is ill discipline in the SA National Defence Force because that is not entirely correct. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.

Moulana M R SAYEDALI-SHAH: Madam Deputy Speaker, it is a fact that the military justice system isn’t functioning effectively, and it is a fact that the members of the SANDF have little confidence in the current mechanisms involved in the military justice system, which is affecting the morale and the rank and file of the SANDF.

Would the hon Deputy Minister then kindly tell this House what action has been taken by his department to date to bring the perpetrators of the shootings at Phalaborwa, Simon’s Town and Burundi to book; what steps has the Department of Defence taken to ensure that these incidents are minimised to the least number; how has the SANDF dealt with the offences committed by our peacekeepers in cases of rape, abuse and other violations of discipline, etc; and when will we see a report on this matter?

The parliamentary Portfolio Committee on Defence has worked on a draft Bill. We have discussed it, as you heard the chairperson say. The Defence Review makes provision for it; the White Paper makes provision for it. It’s now six months down the line that we’ve had this draft Bill. I’m sure you must have received a copy for your perusal. Why is there a delay in this matter? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Deputy Speaker, I’m going to try my level best, because I don’t want people to assume that Mr Sayedali-Shah and I don’t like each other, because I like him very much. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: He says he likes you too.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: He again repeats what I said – that the military justice system in our department is not functioning properly. That is why there was a task team. I have already said that we are dealing with the matter, but he is raising new issues that are not part of the question. If he wants to get a report about some of the incidents he is listing, he must do so. Then, we’ll come to Parliament or to the portfolio committee and we’ll give a full report on what he is asking. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.

Mr N T GODI: Deputy Speaker, may I start by saying that I think my talk button is not that functional. That’s why I had to raise my hand.

Comrade Deputy Minister, the transformation of the military justice system in the army for me is part and parcel of the general need to transform the military in its broader sense. What I want to check is: what progress has been made in the attempt to amalgamate the veteran’s association or the liberation movement and those of the old SADF? I ask this because, as things currently stand, the veterans from the apartheid army have more benefits than the veterans from the liberation movement and, 11 years down the line, we think that this process needs to have been concluded. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Deputy Speaker, unfortunately, again the people I like are letting me down! I like Mr Godi very well, but he is now asking a new question that concerns the integration of the military veterans, which has nothing to do with the military justice system. But for his information, because I like him, we are in the process of integrating the military veterans; but you cannot integrate before you level the playing field. We have to make sure that especially those who were disadvantaged are raised to the point at which they can integrate in such a manner that they are not swallowed up by what he calls the former apartheid military veterans. I thank you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I’m not going to allow other people who like the Minister . . . [Interjections.] and the Minister also likes them.

             Peace process between Israel and Palestine

1. Mrs M A A Njobe (ANC) asked the Minister of Foreign Affairs:

   (1) Whether the implementation of the current disengagement plan of the Israeli government contributes towards the establishment of an independent Palestine state; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, how much of the occupied Palestinian territory is expected to be returned to the Palestinian people through this process;

      (2) how did the Spier Presidential Peace Initiative of 2003
      contribute in facilitating the current peace process between
      Israel and Palestine?                            N1750E
   

The MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Madam Deputy Speaker, the disengagement plan from Gaza has to be looked at in the context of the road map itself. If it’s done in isolation of the road map, then it won’t be as useful as it should be. But it has to be in the framework of the road map. Therefore it must be seen as a first step in the implementation of the peace plan and the withdrawal from the occupied Palestinian territories.

Gaza is about 365 km2, which is 6% of the occupied Palestinian territory. Even the withdrawal from Gaza will be meaningful if the Palestinians are allowed to determine and run the affairs in Gaza itself. If that does not happen, then that will not be as meaningful as it should be. The part that they will control is supposed to leave out the Philadelphia Corridor, which is on the border with Egypt. But our belief is that they should then be allowed to take on the affairs of that part.

The Israeli settlers had occupied approximately 30% of Gaza; therefore the withdrawal constitutes the return of 30% of Gaza. That constitutes only 6% of the occupied territory. The withdrawal from the four areas in the West Bank will constitute 10%. That means that it will be a withdrawal from 10% of the total of 94% because the occupied territory in the West Bank forms 94% of the occupied Palestinian territory. So that is the level of withdrawal that we see. However, as I said, if it is seen in the framework of the road map, then it is positive.

We know that in the West Bank, the withdrawal is not complete, unlike in Gaza. As far as we understand, in the West Bank the withdrawal is partial because the settlers will be withdrawn, but the military installations and the soldiers at checkpoints are going to remain.

The other question is about the South African opinion, the Spier initiative and how that fits into all these aspects. Of course, the Spier initiative or process was really some background work or work behind the scenes to try to encourage the peaceful resolution of the Palestinian-Israeli problem. Initially, the interaction was between Palestinians and Israelis who are for peace – commonly known as the peace camps. But later the Spier process began to engage other people like the Jewish Diaspora, the Likud party, Hamas and the Islamic Jihad.

We think that it’s important to still continue the work in the background that encourages the movement towards the resolution of that conflict. Thank you.

Mrs M A A NJOBE: Hon Minister, thank you for the informative response to the question. The ANC fully supports the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination and to coexist with the people of Israel. We appreciate South Africa’s intervention in the Middle East conflict and the contribution made by the Spier Presidential Peace Initiative of 2003 to the Israeli-Palestinian peace process.

Hon Minister, recent events in that part of the world have shown that much still needs to be done. What further role can South Africa play to ensure that the two sides take consideration of each other’s fears and concerns and that they engage seriously with them as equal partners - I would like to emphasise, “as equal partners” – through a structured negotiation process? I thank you.

The MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Hon member, as you know, this matter is handled by the United Nations. There is the quartet, which is supposed to be the lead group that is supposed to lead all of us in the process of the resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but also in terms of the establishment of the Palestinian state through the two-state resolution where the Palestinians will have their own state and the Israelis theirs, both with secure borders. Hopefully, they will coexist as neighbours.

As I have said, South Africa can only play a supportive role, which we have been playing in various ways. Even in this process, it is important for us to continue engaging both sides. We should engage the Palestinians and assist them where we can, as we have been doing. We should also engage the Israelis and share our own experience as South Africans.

For instance, when we met with the Likud party, it was not only as a government delegation, but we involved other South Africans who could share their own experiences with them. Former Minister Pik Botha and others were part of that because they know them and were interacting with them before. They could share experiences with them to show that the way South Africa went was satisfactory and that there was no loser. Peace was the winner.

So it is important for South Africa to continue where we can meet with Israelis, Palestinians and sometimes with both. But South Africa cannot be the lead country in this matter. The quartet is the lead structure designated by the United Nations. We must continue because of the need for peace in that region. If we can solve that conflict peacefully, I think it will be a big contribution towards peace in the world.

Therefore it is important for us - and everybody else - to participate where we can. I just wanted to explain that we couldn’t be the lead country. We will always work in the background, not on the front stage. The quartet is supposed to be on the front stage. But all the time, we also engage every single member of the quartet. We talk to them about that situation. Thank you.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, Madam Minister, I agree with you about the role of the quartet and that of South Africa which of necessity will be a modest and a marginal one. Perhaps our experience of bridging a huge divide may be helpful to the people in that conflict.

My view is that the world has been surprised by the actions of the Sharon government at the scenes of the Gaza withdrawal, which are played out on our television screens. Would the Minister agree that there are encouraging signs of a climate change and that pressure should now be exerted by the South African government and others on both the Palestinians and the Israelis? And the purpose of that would be to encourage them to continue with confidence-building steps aimed at increasing negotiating momentum.

The MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Yes, I would agree that the withdrawal from Gaza is a positive step, as I have already indicated, but not an isolated one. So I agree that it is a positive step and that the two sides must build on it. I agree that all of us, indeed, must put pressure, not only on both sides but also on the quartet to play its leading role in resolving that conflict as soon as possible.

So South Africa should do the same: put pressure on both, but also on the quartet because they must take responsibility and build on this step. It can’t just be this step and then nothing else happens. This must be in the framework of the road map. This must open up the opportunity for the road map to be implemented. So it must be both sides and the quartet.

                    Early release of rape suspect

1. Mr J Selfe (DA) asked the Minister of Correctional Services:

   (1) Whether the suspect arrested in connection with the rape of a three-year-old girl in Bokmakierie in Cape Town on or about 6 August 2005, and who received an early release from prison in terms of his announced remission of sentences for prisoners, underwent any pre-release counselling; if not, why not; if so, (a) on what dates did this person undergo counselling, (b) who conducted the counselling and (c) what were the results thereof;

   (2) whether any psychological and risk assessment was done as part of the pre-release programme for this prisoner; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (3) what steps were taken to ensure that the early release of this prisoner would not pose a risk to society? N1756E

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy Chair, all offenders who benefited from the remission of sentence to the extent that it qualified them for release were obliged to attend a compulsory prerelease programme.

In this specific case, the individual attended the prerelease programme on 13 June 2005. Prior to this, the individual appeared before the Correctional Supervision and Parole Board on 1 April 2005. His co-operation and behaviour in the correctional facility was quite positive. He was granted an unconditional release date of 27 September 2005.

The answer to part (b) is: The prerelease programme was conducted by the correctional officials, as is the case. The answer to part (c) is: By its very nature, this programme was a didactic programme that included modules on restorative justice, relationships and parole conditions.

The answer to part 2 of the question is: A prerelease assessment was completed. It dealt with matters such as place of abode after release, education and training, employment opportunities, religious and health care, needs after release, and the material assistance that was required.

The answer to part 3 of the question is: The Department of Correctional Services entered into partnerships with a range of organisations such as Nicro, Khulisa, Sanca, the SA Council of Churches and the Salvation Army specifically to assist with the reintegration of released offenders into their respective communities. The department also worked very closely with the SA Police Service in monitoring all cases of reoffending. Thank you.

Mr J SELFE: Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you to the Minister for his reply. When he announced the special remissions on 31 may 2005, the Minister told this House the following, and I quote: “No offender who committed aggressive, firearm-related, sexual or drug-related crimes will be released.” The alleged perpetrator of this crime was serving a prison term for a sexual crime and had a history of sexual abuse, and yet he was released early. The question is: Why was he released early?

Moreover, it is reasonably well established that sexual offenders do not have a good rehabilitation record. What steps is the Minister taking to ensure that sexual offenders are properly screened and for longer than a single day, before they are released on parole and are properly supervised while on parole to prevent a repetition of this very tragic event?

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: First of all, let me just correct one thing. I tend to agree with Mr Selfe on some of the issues he raised, but let me raise one thing. When this particular individual was arrested – let me read from the record very quickly - he was arrested and sentenced, or was sentenced rather, on 28 September 2000 to five years’ imprisonment.

In terms of section 276 l(i) of the Criminal Procedure Act of 1977, for indecent assault he qualified to be considered for conversion of sentence on 27 July 2001 on the completion of one sixth of his sentence. After that, he was let out in 2001.

He was rearrested again on 12 June 2003. What he was arrested for this time was for breaking parole rules – he violated everything while on parole. He was not arrested this time for that, but he broke parole rules for that sentence he was serving. I also want to agree with Mr Selfe that we have to have proper screening and proper risk assessment before we release anybody into the communities.

This is the first time that any remission of sentence procedure or process has been done so well – if I may say so myself - and we have learnt from it. From here we have laid a foundation that is going to assist us in the future. It is difficult sometimes when sentences are meted out. The judges do not indicate when it is a sexual offender.

Adv P S SWART: Chair, hon Minister, I think we were similarly shocked in the ACDP at the brutal rape of a three-year-old child from Bokmakierie. But we do also want to state that your department’s statement that the current 2,4% reoffending rate is admittedly low. We want to just point out that it is significant that amongst the reoffenders there were three cases of murder and eight cases of rape.

You also indicated on 31 May, when you made the announcement, that anyone who presented a danger to society would not be released. Clearly, these people fell through those cracks. We do just want to say that 2,4% is low, and we hope that it stays low. Could you, hon Minister, give us an indication where you also admitted at the portfolio committee hearing that the system of community supervision is inadequate and needs overhauling? What can we now do with 30 000 prisoners being released from prison in terms of this amnesty? What is being done to ensure that the levels of reoffending remain low and that the public’s safety is maintained? I thank you.

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Minister, you may certainly answer the question, although it is not entirely linked to the question on the Question Paper.

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you very much, Deputy Chair. I must also emphasise the point, as you have done, hon Swart, that we did express ourselves as the department about that terrible deed that happened to that three-year-old. We expressed shock at that and we expressed our sympathy to the family for what happened.

With regard to the issue of community supervision, we are beefing it up because we have large numbers of people that were released through remissions. We are employing more and more people in the Department of Correctional Services so that we can release those who have been with us for some time to go into the communities to assist.

Regarding not being able to have assessed the risk of this particular individual, as I have said before we are a responsible department. We are not so naive as not to understand that some people will reoffend. The call that I’m making on us as members of Parliament and on families and society out there is that the issue of released offenders who get integrated into society must be a responsibility for society as whole. It cannot be only the responsibility of the Department of Correctional Services. We have, all of us, to take the responsibility and make sure that people who come back into our society are really looked after so that they do not reoffend again.

Mr V B NDLOVU: Thank you, Deputy Chair.

Umhlonishwa ngimuzwe ekhuluma ethi akazi kahle ukuthi abanye baboshelwani. Umuntu odlwengulile kufanele ukuba ngabe akayena umuntu onikezwa ilungelo lokuphuma ejele noma ngabe linhloboni. Kulokhu-ke kwenzeke iphutha kwenzeka. Kufanele kwenzeke yini ngokulandayo ukuthi abadlwenguli badedelwe na? Umbuzo omqoka kakhulu kabi lona ngoba laba bantu abadlwengula izingane uma bezodedelwa masishane abantu lapha ngaphandle bazokwenza enye into engavumelekile lapha emhlabeni. Bengithi angibuze lokho nje. (Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.)

[I heard the hon member say that he does not really know why others are arrested. A person who raped should not be granted the right to be out of prison. No matter what kind of right it is. This time around, a mistake was made; it happened. Is it supposed to happen the next time we release rapists? This is a very critical question because if these child rapists are going to be freed immediately, they are going to do other things that are not acceptable in this world. That is all I wanted to ask.]

UMPHATHISWA WEENKONZO ZOLULEKO: Enkosi Bawo uVelaphi Ndlovu, ndiqinisekile ukuba akekho umntu eluntwini ngokubanzi onokuze avume ukuba abantu abadlwengula abantwana okanye abantu basethyini mangavele bakhutshwe nje ejele. Ndingutata wamantombazana amathathu endiwathanda ngokungazenzisiyo uNosiphiwo, uBhumbhum kunye noNeli. Ndingaze ndicaphuke kakhulu ukuba kungaze kukhutshwe isidlwengu esidlengule aba bantwana. Nawuphina umntwana olapha eMzantsi Afrika ndingutata kuye, ufanele kukukhuselwa, angadlwengulwa.

Asinakuze sivume ke ukuba izidlwengu ziphume etolongweni. Lo yena oye waphuma ebengangenanga ngolo hlobo. Wophule imithetho yengqawule, kodwa ukusukela ngoku sizakujonga ukuba akukho sidlwengu siza kuphuma ngolu hlobo. Asikwazi ukuthi siliSebe leZolungisa elisungule iphulo elaziwa njenge: no violence against women and children. Silelona sebe ekufuneka linqande into yokuba izidlwengu zingaphumi entolongweni xa zibanjiwe. Siyakuthembisa ke bawo uNdlovu ukuba sizakuyisa iso loo nto, kwaye asoze iphinde yenzeke. Enkosi. (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you, hon Velaphi Ndlovu. I am sure that no one among the general public could ever agree that sexual offenders and child molesters should be let out of prison. I am a father of three girls, Nosiphiwo, Bhumbhum and Neli, whom I love dearly. I would become very angry if somebody who had committed a sexual offence against them, who had raped any of them, were to be released from prison. I am a father figure to every child in South Africa, and she or he has to be protected against sexual abuse.

We would never allow rapists to be released from prison. The offender we are talking about is the one who broke parole conditions. However, from now on we are going to ensure that no sexual offender is released under the amnesty conditions. As the department that initiated and leads the 16 Days of Activism for No Violence Against Women and Children campaign, the responsibility is on us to ensure that sexual offenders serve the prison sentences that have been handed down to them. I promise you, hon Ndlovu, on behalf of the department, that we will look at this matter closely. It will never happen again. Thank you.]

Mr J SELFE: Yes, thank you very much indeed, Madam Chair. When the National Commissioner came to the portfolio committee, he briefed the portfolio committee and said that the prerelease programmes were supposed to have lasted for 10 weeks before these people were released. In fact, the Minister told the House that the prerelease counselling consisted of one day. Could the Minister explain to us why this programme was truncated in such large measure and why only one day of prerelease counselling was provided?

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: I don’t think the hon James Selfe is correct. It was not truncated to one day. We stretched it over a period of three weeks into the 10 weeks in which we were releasing the offenders. The commissioner did mention that if this was done according to him, which I think is correct, we should have had more time.

Now, we have learnt lessons from this. This is the first time that this special remission, which comes out of our Constitution, has been done in this proper way. Of course, as the department, this has laid the foundation for us in that when these remissions take place again people will do them in the proper way.

Also, remember that as a department we are very new to this. The last time it was done was in 1998, and it was done in a very Pamplona bullish kind of way. You know the bulls of Pamplona? Yes, it was done in that way, but we have learnt something from this. The lessons we have learnt we will bring back to Parliament and give a report here on them and on what should happen next should special remissions occur again.

   Intervention by government to prevent Zimbabwe’s expulsion from
                     International Monetary Fund

1. Mr L K Joubert (IFP) asked the Minister of Foreign Affairs:

   Whether the Government has intervened on behalf of Zimbabwe to prevent Zimbabwe’s expulsion from the International Monetary Fund in July 2005; if so, what commitments were made by the Zimbabwean government in return? N1578E

The MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Some of us do not know the bulls of Pamplona so maybe he should have explained to all of us what that means.

Having said that, yes, the South African government did ask for the postponement of the IMF decision from 9 August to 9 September. But there were no conditions secured or expected at that point of asking for the postponement. Thank you.

Mr L K JOUBERT: Thank you, Minister. Chairperson, I find it strange that in some cases the government seeks to develop mechanisms to influence other countries, but in the case of Zimbabwe where we are in a strong position to influence a government we seem to be paralysed.

Just last week in the portfolio committee we were given the policy on Kenya, for example, and I want to quote:

South Africa is to develop a mechanism of intervention that can be
utilised to interact with the stakeholders in the Kenyan government, in
case the current wrangles threaten the stability of the government and
impact on the regional peace and stability.

I fully agree with this statement anyway, but my follow-up question is: Why is our policy towards Zimbabwe different, why don’t we use the opportunities to influence them? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: I do not know what you understand by that statement in any case, because if you understood it the way I do, you would not be asking that question. Because I do not think that there are any mechanisms that we can use against Kenya other than engaging with them, to be honest with you.

I do not know what you were made to understand we could do other than engage with Kenya or any other country. Therefore, with Zimbabwe, I do not understand when you say we are paralysed. If there is any country that we have been engaging with and spending hours and days on, it is Zimbabwe. So, we are not paralysed. Sure, we may not have the results that you expect but it does not mean that we are not doing anything. It does not mean that we are not engaging. Even with Kenya, we will engage with them. That is all that that statement means. So, don’t read any more into it than that we will engage with Kenya if needs be.

Yes, we engage with Zimbabwe as well but what I said even last week at the imbizo was that I do not think that we should deceive ourselves that we have some magic wand that we can wave and get Zimbabwe to change if they do not want to change. [Interjections.] That is the honest truth. What is it that we can do?

Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Is it possible for you to afford our member here a chance because the Minister has posed a question back to our member to clarify her point. Is it possible to afford him another chance?

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S BOTHA): It seems to me that we may well be opening another opportunity for a follow-up question. Hon Ramgobin!

Mr M RAMGOBIN: Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Minister, notwithstanding the comments of the so-called ``paralysis’’ of our stance with regard to Zimbabwe, notwithstanding and over and above our initiative to take action or an advisory position to delay the expulsion of Zimbabwe from the International Monetary Fund, is it not absolutely necessary for regional stability and security for our own national interest, to take more positive steps to ensure that the meltdown of Zimbabwe does not take place and the expulsion of Zimbabwe from the IMF does not take place? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Thank you, hon member. Of course, any South African who has a South African interest or a continental interest or an interest in humanity for that matter, will not want a meltdown in Zimbabwe so that there is total collapse because who has to gain from total collapse in Zimbabwe? There is none of us, not South Africa, not Zimbabwe not Africa and not humanity. So, it is important therefore that we avoid as far as we can the meltdown or total collapse of Zimbabwe.

Yes. Even if it was already there, why should we make it worse? It is not in your interest to make it worse. So, yes I agree completely with you, hon member.

Mr W J SEREMANE: Madam Minister, with all these questions about Zimbabwe, the travails of Zimbabwe, it seems to me there is one person causing this problem - who is a fallen hero, a fallen star - and that is President Mugabe. He has sent off the IMF with a flea in their ear. He will not accept IMF advice and conditions. Likewise, President Mugabe has refused to accept what is politely called a loan from South Africa. Is the government going to insist on Zimbabwe receiving this loan on their own terms if they do, or should we leave this troublesome President Mugabe, a fallen hero, so to say, to stew in his own juice? I thank you.

The MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Well, I do not know how you force anybody to take anything. How do you do that? We just deposit it in their account? [Laughter.] Is that what you mean?

I do not understand when you say are we going to force him to take the money. How do we do that? I do not know. Maybe I will ask the Minister of Finance or the Governor of the Reserve Bank to say whether they can force somebody to take a loan when he does not want to; I do not know.

But I think what is important really is that Zimbabwe consists of millions and millions of Zimbabweans so we must not lose sight of that and try and treat Zimbabwe as though we are talking about one person and that whatever you may wish about that person then you think it will solve the problems of Zimbabwe.

It will not be, so if we indeed care about human beings as we all say we do, we must care about what happens to those Zimbabweans. If there is a meltdown in Zimbabwe or a total collapse of the economy, what will happen to those human beings? What do we wish for them? I really do not understand your wish for a total collapse in Zimbabwe because it will affect millions and millions of Zimbabweans, and South Africans for that matter.

Perhaps you think that when there is a total collapse you can go and grab some funds, I do not know. [Laughter.]

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S BOTHA): Order, hon members! The fourth slot has been taken by the hon Khumalo.

Mfu M S KHUMALO: Sihlalo noNgqongqoshe ohloniphekuile, kuyabonakala ukuthi umongameli uMugabe akafuni ukuzibophezela entweni ethile. Kubonakale ngokuthi kuthi abantu be-IMF befikile ezweni lakhe abe matasatasa kangangokuthi akanakuhlangana nabo.

Manje singenzeka yini isimo sokuthi iNingizimu Afrika igcine ikhiphe imali ku-IMF noma izibophezelo zingatholakalanga? (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[Rev M S KHUMALO: Chairperson and hon Minister, it is noticed that President Mugabe is not prepared to commit himself to something. This was noticed when the people of the IMF visited his country and he became busy in such a way that he could not meet with them.

So now will South Africa be in a situation to end up withdrawing the money from the IMF even though the commitments have not been received?]

UNGQONGQOSHE WEZANGAPHANDLE: Mhlawumbe okufanele sikwazi futhi ukuthi iZimbabwe yona nje ngokwayo ikhona imali esiyikhokhile kulezi zinsuku kwi- IMF ngakho-ke asingakhulumi sengathi sikhuluma ngelizwe noma ngomuntu ohleli nje ogoqe izandla, okhubazekile. Kukhona izigidi ezingaphezulu kwekhulu asebezikhokhile kwi-IMF kulezi zinsuku. Asazi-ke ukuthi lokho kusho ukuthini. Noma bona ngingababonanga, sengisho ukuthi ikhona imizamo abayenzayo hhayi ukuthi bahleli nje balinde thina ukuthi sizobafunza njengechwane lenyoni. (Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.)

[The MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Perhaps what we should know is that a few days ago Zimbabwe on its own contributed something towards the payment to the IMF; therefore let us not talk as if we are speaking about a country or a person which is just idly folding its arms and is disabled. They have paid over a hundred million to the IMF in a few days’ time. We, however, do not know what that means. Even though I have not seen them in person, I mean to say that there are efforts that they are making; and it’s not as if they are just sitting and waiting to be fed by us like a fledgling.]

          Deployment of SA Police Service members on trains

1. Mr S Mahote (ANC) asked the Minister of Safety and Security:

   (1) How many SA Police Service members were deployed on trains in the Western Cape;

   (2) whether this arrangement is permanent; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? N1739E

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Deputy Chair, now and again there are questions I am asked by hon members - and it is always my intention to respond to those questions – which, at times, are questions whose answers may, yes, enrich us here, because they provide knowledge. But there are other people who, when they get the information, use it as a countermeasure against us.

So, as I respond to this question, there are some details that I am not going to make available to the member, because they are operational aspects. I don’t want the people whom we are fighting against to have this information and to get it directly from the police, so to speak.

It is true, as we indicated a while back, that we have some police deployed on our trains in the Peninsula, and we did say that we would use that as a project in order for us to define a similar arrangement elsewhere in the country. We have, therefore, what we refer to as our National Mobile Train Unit. This is a unit that therefore accompanies trains on our national grid, particularly trains that go to Pretoria.

Here, in the Peninsula, we have four contact points - at Philippi, Retreat, Bellville and Cape Town, which serve as community service centres for the railway police. In other words, we have railway police that are working. But I am not going to give the actual deployments and the numbers relevant to this. Thank you very much.

Mr S MAHOTE: Thank you very much, Minister. I think that in your response to my first question you also covered my follow-up question. Thank you.

Mr V B NDLOVU: Thank you, Deputy Chair. Minister, I understand that you do not want to give details. What I want to know is: Is it the SAPS that are deployed here or have we trained special railway police members who will be deployed there permanently?

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Firstly, I just want to indicate that, yes, these are permanent deployments and they are members of the SAPS. I am sure you would recall, hon Ndlovu that the first time we spoke about this we said that there was a division that had been established within the police called the Protection and Security Services of the police. These are members who are part of that division, but they are specially assigned to the railways. They are SAPS members. Thank you.

Mr R JANKIELSOHN: Minister, our public transport system has been systematically eroded over the past decade, which has enormous economic and other implications for the country. The increasing price of fuel further enhances the need to deal with this problem.

Minister, the seriousness of the issue is highlighted by the R40 million class-action suit instituted by the Rail Commuters Action Group and by various strikes by Cosatu over dissatisfaction with the rail system. One of the greatest areas of dissatisfaction for rail commuters is safety and security. Besides commuter safety, there are also other security issues such as vandalism, fare evasion, theft and delinquent commuters that also cost the taxpayer a great deal of money and require action from the Department of Safety and Security.

Minister, does the SA Police Service really have the manpower to ensure that not only commuter safety but also these other aspects that I mentioned are dealt with as part of a comprehensive safety plan for our rail system? Thank you, Chairperson.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: The first thing I would like to say - I am sure you know this, because it happened when some of you people were governing this country - is that the railway police was disbanded by the previous regime. We only restarted with a small unit to deal with safety on the railways in the past year. That is why we only have the number that we have at present to deal with these. To the extent therefore that it is possible, the police are going to be able to help to restore people’s confidence in terms of their safety and security on the trains. That is all I can say at this stage. Thank you.

Mr L M GREEN: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, despite the minor deployment of SAPS members on the trains, would you say that it was substantial enough to ensure a decrease in incidents of crime on our trains? Maybe this is not a question that I should ask now, but do you perhaps have any statistics of arrests that have been made in the past few months? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: I, unfortunately, don’t have statistics with respect to what has happened vis-à-vis possible arrests on the trains. But I do wish to say that I recall there was a time - I think it was in my Budget Vote speech – when I spoke about what we had done one particular festive season, particularly here in the Western Cape, and, when, apart from the railway police, we also deployed volunteers who helped us.

I do want to reiterate what I said then, which is that as a consequence of that deployment they were indeed able to deal with crime. Incidents, therefore, of criminal activity against people were drastically reduced. I, unfortunately, don’t have current information with respect to what has been happening in the past few months. Thank you.

Compliance with national building regulations by police stations under construction

1. Mr V C Gore (ID) asked the Minister of Safety and Security:

   Whether the (a) Kabega Park, (b) Motherwell or (c) any other police station under construction complies with the national building regulations in respect of (i) accessibility for people with disabilities and (ii) the provision of lifts to higher floors; if not, what mechanisms have been put in place to rectify the situation; if so, what are the relevant details? N1257E

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, what we have at Kabega Park is leased accommodation, and not a police structure. We are leasing that accommodation. Of course, it does conform to the national building regulations and, therefore, is accessible to people who live with disabilities.

The provision of elevators is not necessary, therefore, in terms of regulations, seeing that the building is only two storeys high. In other words, therefore, it is less than 10m in height. The national building regulations, particularly of 2004, part T, clause 4(44)(1) stipulates that lifts shall only be provided if the building concerned is higher than 10m.

The Motherwell police station is currently under construction, and when it is completed it will have accommodation for people living with disabilities.

This is the general thrust of my response to you. In other words, all new police stations that we are building will have that accommodation and in this case it’s only because this building is not high. Thank you very much.

Mr V C GORE: Chairperson, the ID would like to thank the Minister for his commitment to ensuring that people with disabilities are not sidelined or marginalised in society. All barriers need to be removed in order to ensure that people with disabilities and their families are adequately integrated into mainstream society.

I think the Kabega Park and Motherwell police stations illustrate the fact that there needs to be some mechanism put in place to ensure that people with disabilities are accommodated. With regard to Kabega, this is a police station where reports have emanated that people with disabilities, particularly wheelchair users, are not able to get to the second floor. That creates a problem not only for the people that work within the police station, but also for members of the public who wish to access the services, for example, on the second floor.

What this case illustrates is that despite all the best intentions by you, hon Minister, and your department, situations seem to arise more and more. Unless, hon Minister, . . .

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms S-C Botha): Hon Gore, you have got nought seconds to ask your question.

Mr V C GORE: The question I’d like to ask you, hon Minister, regarding public awareness, is: What is your department doing in order to overcome the barriers that exist in terms of people with disabilities?

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, as I’ve said, the problem with that particular station is that it is leased accommodation and it’s not ours, so to speak. But even so, in terms of the regulations it is not one of those structures where necessary changes have to be effected. But we are quite alert to the particular problem that the hon Gore is raising and we can’t undermine the gravity of it.

On the part of the police, as I say, all police stations that we are building do have that accommodation because we are quite aware of the problems that we will have in servicing people who live with disabilities if we do not redefine the way in which these structures are put up.

Mr L B LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, I take the Minister’s point that the building regulations have a limit, but you know, even a few steps are very difficult for people with disabilities to cope with.

The question is, besides new police stations, what’s being done about existing police stations, particularly those in rural areas, to accommodate people with disabilities?

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, I really think that I have attempted to respond to this question. Unfortunately, we can’t wish away buildings that have always been as they were constructed at the time, but it is our desire, as I say, to service people in the best possible ways. I am sure we can make suitable constructions where it is indeed feasible for us to do so without imposing on landlords from whom we lease buildings, such as in the case of Kabega Park. We are quite aware of the problems that the hon members are raising.

Ms M M SOTYU: Chairperson, I thank the Minister for the reply. Comrade Minister, does the SA Police Service provide training to its members to sensitise them regarding the rights and special needs of those members of society who are differently able? If so, please provide us with some details. If not, will the Minister consider implementing such training for members of the SAPS?

At one stage, Minister, I visited one station that was under construction and police members made us very proud because they went outside to assist a disabled person who was in a wheelchair and took a statement outside the police station. That is the reason why I am asking this question.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, in fact, hon member, I do want to say that there are cases where the police have actually gone out of their way to assist people who were not necessarily disabled, but were undergoing very traumatic experiences. For instance, there is a police officer that was going to report for work early one morning and he came across somebody who was giving birth on a pavement in central Johannesburg. That person went there and helped that woman to deliver that baby.

They also do this with respect to people who live with disabilities. There is nobody who goes to a community service centre . . . and that is the reason; incidentally, we now call police stations community service centres, because that is where communities come together for various kinds of services.

In fact, some of our police officials reported to me the other day that in many instances people would come to the community service centre and ask if it is possible for the centre to provide them with a room where they could have a meeting. They are allowing them to do this, but they also go out of their way to assist people who live with disabilities so that they can access the various services that are available.

         Membership of gangs involved in criminal activities

1. Rev K R J Meshoe (ACDP) asked the Minister of Safety and Security:

   Whether there is a law that prohibits membership of a gang that is involved in criminal activities; if not, why not; if so, (a) how many people have been arrested and convicted for being members of illegal gangs during the past five years (b) what is done to inform young people in particular about the dangers of belonging to a gang and (c) how can members of the public help the police by reporting the existence of street gangs without exposing themselves to danger? N1751E

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: This is a very long answer. Can’t I just go to sit at a table with him and give my reply over a cup of tea?

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): You may ask him.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Section 9 of The Prevention Of Organised Crime Act criminalizes active participation in or a person’s membership of a criminal gang. This is the case if the person involved also participates in criminal activity committed for the benefit of and at the direction of, or in association with any criminal gang, or violent or intimidatory activities of a gang.

A special project was implemented in the Western Cape to optimise provisions for the so-called criminal gang activities contained in the Prevention of Organised Crime Act. We have mobilised people, that is communities, to deal particularly with young people so that they can give them information with respect to this.

The police themselves have various projects that are designed to wean some of these young people away from these gangs, such as in schools, the Adopt- a-Cop Project, Youth Leaders against Crime, Captain Crime Stop and Top Cops in secondary schools. All of these are designed to give information to young people with respect to the type of crimes arising out of association with criminal gangs.

Of course, we also invite people to give us information. And to ensure their anonymity, they simply call Crime Stop’s toll-free numbers and give us information regarding these matters without identifying themselves. Thank you very much.

Rev K R J MESHOE: Deputy Chair, the fact that the Minister did not answer the question as to how many people have been arrested and convicted should be interpreted to mean that the conviction and arrest rates are very low.

Now, besides the fact that numerous workshops, special meetings and consultations with gang experts from overseas to develop antigang strategies have been held, gang activity, particularly in the Western Cape, continues to grow.

Many thought that the implementation of Section 4 of the 1998 Prevention Of Organised Crime Act, which criminalizes gang membership, would stop the growth and expansion of street gangs, but this does not seem to be the case.

The message of zero tolerance has been repeated regularly in speeches and in newspaper interviews, but the war against gangsterism is not being won. The late Minister of Justice, hon Dullah Omar, declared that the Prevention Of Organised Crime Act, POCA, is the most drastic law passed by this government. This drastic law that is supposed to criminalize gang membership . . .

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms S-C Botha): Hon Meshoe, please ask your question.

Rev K R J MESHOE: My question is: Why are the convictions for illegal gang membership still so low, particularly in the light of the fact that the combined membership of the number of gangs on the Cape flats is still very high? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Thank you very much. You see, we do not arrest and charge people for being members of gangs. We charge them for committing crimes. So when they are arrested, it is because they have committed a crime. Yes, at times within the gang, in the advancement of the interests of the gang and what have you, they commit crimes together as gang members, but we charge them with that particular criminal act and not for being members of a gang per se.

So it is difficult for me to give detailed information as to “how many people . . . ”, as the question is put here, . . . “were arrested for being members of illegal gangs?” It is illegal activities for which we arrest and charge people. Thank you.

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): In the interest of gender equity, Minister, you will have to ask her out to tea as well. [Laughter.]

Ms J A SEMPLE: Hon Minister, you have given us some indication regarding the steps that you are taking in the Western Cape to prevent gang activities or people joining gangs to perform criminal activities. Do you have any idea how effective those steps have been in preventing criminal activities? Have you been able to effect the prevention of young people joining those gangs? Do you have any ideas?

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Thank you very much. Well, what we have done here has helped us to curb this, but obviously we can’t say that we have been able to stop it completely. Gangsterism still happens, but our strategy goes a long way towards at least deterring young people, particularly, from linking up with gangs.

We have been getting a lot of information from the people who have become aware of these programmes that I have referred to. They have not completely stopped gangsterism from happening, but they have gone quite some distance in assisting us to curb it. Thank you.

Mnu V B NDLOVU: Sihlalo, mhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe, ngoba sengathi kuyaphumelela lokhu kuphakwa kwamaphoyisa asebenza ukubhekana nalaba bantu abenza ubugebengu, ngabe umhlonishwa uNgqongoshe uyacabanga yini ukuthi mhlawumbe akhuphule inani labantu abazosebenza kulezo zimo, kanye nabantu abazosebenza ngendlela yokuthi izigebengu zikwazi ukuziletha zona ngokwazo ukuze sikhuphule inani, khona sizokwazi ukuwucindezela lo msebenzi omubi wobugebengu bamagenge, ikakhulukazi lapha eNtshonalanga Kapa?

Mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe, ngithi ngoba nakhu kunenhlansana yempumelelo ekhona futhi ebonakalayo, ngabe ikhona yini imizamo yokukhuphula inani lamalungu asebenza lo msebenzi ukuze kuthi noma impumelelo incane kodwa iye ngokukhuphuka khona kuzoncishiswa amagenge ezigebengu lapha eNtshonalanga Kapa? (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[Mr V B NDLOVU: Chairperson, hon Minister, because it seems as if this deployment of police to deal with criminals is successful, is the hon Minister considering increasing the number of personnel who are going to work in those situations and those who are going to work in such a way that criminals could turn themselves in so that we will be able to cope with the criminal activities, specifically here in the Western Cape?

Hon Minister, what I am asking is, because there is a glimmer of success, are there any efforts to increase the number of personnel that is doing this work in such a way that we can decrease the number of criminals here in the Western Cape?]

UMPHATHISWA WEZOKHUSELO NOKHUSELEKO: Ndikuve kakuhle, bawo. Ewe, siyawenza lo msebenzi ukwenzela ukuba aba bantu basebenzayo, ngakumbi amapolisa enza lo msebenzi, banyuselwe. Amanani amapolisa asebenza kweli candelo nawo athe xhaxhe ngoku. (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)

[The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: I understand your question, sir. Yes, we do that in order for those individuals who do the work to get promoted, especially the police. There is now an increase in the number of police working in this unit.]

Mr O E MONARENG: Hon Minister, I just want to ask a follow-up question around the issue of gangsterism. But firstly I would like to make a comment that we in the ANC would like to thank the department for doing sterling work in terms of alleviating gangsterism. Secondly, I would like to know whether you would agree with me that gangsterism is a problem throughout the country, but is rife in the Western Cape?

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Yes, it is true that there are many parts of our country where gangsterism is a problem. Indeed in the Western Cape, in particular, it is a problem, but we have been dealing with it. It has to do with a number of conditions that have been in place over many years, which grew to the kind of phenomenon that we are facing now.

However, as you correctly said, and I am sure that members must have themselves seen this, in the past few years the police have done wonderfully well to control the situation with respect to gangsterism even with regard to this particular province. Thank you.

         Impact of introduction of 7-day week establishment

1. Mrs L S Chikunga (ANC) asked the Minister of Correctional Services:

   (a)How many professionals have (i) resigned from his department or (ii) turned down employment at his department at the last hour since the introduction of the 7-day establishment and (b) what impact does the introduction of this 7-day establishment have on the professional staff turnover in his department?N1745E

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy Chair, the introduction of the 7-day week establishment is in line with the designation of the correctional services as an essential service institution. This in essence is aimed at ensuring that services are rendered on a 24-hour, 7-day basis.

This will reduce total lockup-time of inmates and will allow all inmates to access more rehabilitation programmes in line with the new strategic direction of the department even during the weekend, a practice that was not possible when the department was on a 5-day week establishment.

The 7-day week establishment will greatly lessen the time worked by an official and will allow more time for my staff members – abojele – to spend quality time with their families. This will reduce stress suffered by most members under the 5-day week establishment. To meet the needs of human resources in this phasing in of the 7-day week establishment, the department has to date recruited a total number of 2 064 in two intakes of entry-level custodial staff in both Zonderwater and Kroonstad College.

As a department we have found no link between recruits turning down posts because of the introduction of the 7-day week establishment. Professionals, as in any scarce skills category, continue to turn down offers by the department because of not being offered competitive salaries. This matter is being addressed together with the Department of Public Service and Administration, for it is this department that determines the salary levels of these posts. Thank you.

Ms S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, . . . [Interjections.] . . .

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S BOTHA): Sorry, hon Rajbally, I apologise. I made a mistake. I have to first give the opportunity to the questioner.

Nkst L S CHIKUNGA: Ngiyabonga Mgcinisihlalo. Siyiyibonga imphendvulo yakho lekhanyako Ndvuna. Umbuto lolandzelako utsi; Litiko Lekulungisa Timilo lakakho, kukhona yini mbambambamba lenye indlela leseliyentile lengaba siciniseko sekutsi basebenti labaceceshiwe abalishiyi ngebunyenti babo Litiko Lekulungisa Timilo? Nangabe ikhona, iNdvuna ingasitekela yini ngayo; nayingekho, litiko lona ikhona yini indlela lengenta labasebenti labaceceshiwe bangalishiyi litiko? Nkhosi. (Translation of Siswati paragraph follows.)

[Mrs L S CHIKUNGA: Thank you, Chairperson. We are very happy about the clear reply that the Minister has given us. The follow-up question is aimed at finding out whether the Department of Correctional Services really does have any provision for ensuring that trained workers do not leave the department in great numbers. If it does, could the hon the Minister expatiate on that; if it does not, does the department have in place any other mechanisms to prevent the trained workers from leaving the department? Thank you.]

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S BOTHA): Minister, could you help us please because there was no interpretation.

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: I will help you by answering the question.

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S BOTHA): Thank you. [Laughter.]

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: But the Minister of Foreign Affairs is saying, actually, that she can interpret for everybody. Would you give her a chance to do that?

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S BOTHA): Yes, we will do that if she is willing.

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Please, I will. She is my elder sister so I’ll give her a chance to interpret. Sister Nkosazana, can you please interpret for them.

The MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: I prefer to speak in Siswati and not in English. [Laughter.] I will interpret his English into Siswati!

UMPHATHISWA WEENKONZO ZOLULEKO: Mhlalingaphambili, ukuphendula uSisi Sindi, amagosa awahambi kuba kukho izinto ezingalunganga ezenzeka kwisebe, lawo ahambayo ahamba kuba efuna amarhiw’ aluhlaza, kuba imali ayifumanayo incinci, ayilingani nemali ayifumana kwicandelo lamashishini abucala.

Kungoko sithetha neSebe leeNkonzo zoLuntu noLawulo, ukuba makulungiswe amanqanaba entlawulo ukwenzela ukuba ahlale. Siyaphuma ke siye kuzingela abantu esingabaqesha kuzo zonke iindawo. ISebe leeNkonzo zoLuntu noLawulo ngoku liwanyusile amanqanaba entlawulo, noko ngoku linamanqanaba amkelekileyo. Ngoku siyaqalisa ukufumana oogqirha bengqondo, oonontlalontle, amanesi, ukwenzela ukuba ancedise kumsebenzi wokululeka izimilo zamabanjwa. Umdla owubonisayo ke, Mama uSindi, ndiyawuthanda kuba kudala umana undibuza lo mbuzo.

Ndiyakuthembisa ke ukuba baye bengena ngokungena abantu abangamagcisa kwizifundo ngezifundo kwiSebe leeNkonzo zoLuleko, kunjalo nje siyaqhuba silungisa izimilo zabo bathe bona baze bavalelwa ezintolongweni zethu. (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, in response to hon Sindi, the officials that leave the employment of the department do not do so because there are problems within the department. It is because there are better prospects where they go. The money that private companies are prepared to offer them is not what we offer, which is too little.

We have held discussions with the Department of Public Service and Administration, precisely to review salaries so that we can retain them. The Department of Public Service and Administration has subsequently reviewed and increased salary scales. They are now at an acceptable level.

We have started with the recruitment of psychiatrists, social workers and nurses to assist in the rehabilitation programmes of prisoners. I like the interest you have shown in this matter, hon Sindi.

I can tell you that the Department of Correctional Services is inundated with applications from various highly skilled people, and we are continuing with rehabilitation programmes for inmates.]

Ms S RAJBALLY: Thank you, Chairperson. Before I get to our Minister of Correctional Services, I want to give a small message to our Minister of Safety and Security:

Ngqongqoshe, ngike ngabona isithombe sakho laphaya emkhukhwini futhi ngike ngakusho lokho nayizolo. Sihle kakhulu leso sithombe sakho kodwa basifake emkhukhwini. [Uhleko.] (Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.)

[Minister, I saw your portrait there in a shack, and I did say this even yesterday. That portrait is very beautiful but they have unfortunately put it in a shack. [Laughter.]]

You are too handsome and smart to be in such an environment! Thank you very much. [Laughter.]

To the Minister of Correctional Services, I would like to ask you, sir, whether these officials that are employed on a 7-day week basis, work shifts, or do they have a break in between, or does somebody come and relieve them? Thank you.

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Could I just intervene here to say that the hon Minister of Safety and Security now has somebody else to ask to tea.

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Certainly, the tea club is growing. He has to invite lots of people to the tea, including me; and I will tell you why he has to include me.

An Hon MEMBER: It’s because he admires you. [Laughter.]

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: No, it’s not because he admires me - which he does, of course - but because I stand in for him when he is away. And, the issue that the hon Rajbally is raising was raised with me yesterday and I responded to it. But I must say that the Minister of Safety and Security is blushing now because of what Mam Mkhize is saying. You can imagine him blushing, but hon Rajbally did say that his photo looks lovely and wonderful in Bayview Police Station. It’s not really “umkhukhu” [a shack] but an old police station. She raised it with me yesterday, and I raised it with my blushing friend here. So, I should be invited to tea as well so that I can explain this.

Yes, the 7-day week establishment does work in shifts. People do a shift that goes probably from the morning to about 4:00, and it’s lock-up time at about 5:00 or 5:30, which gives offenders more time in the programmes. And, then the first watch comes in and goes up to 11:00; then the second watch comes in till the morning. That’s the shifts that they work. But it gives them more than enough time to be able to be with their families because of the stressful nature of correctional services.

Mr J SELFE: Thank you very much indeed, Madam Chair. On a recent visit to Modderbee Prison, the portfolio committee was told that there were only six social workers on the staff, of whom three were on maternity leave. These social workers served nearly 6 000 inmates. Each inmate is required to have a social worker’s evaluation before that inmate can be considered for parole. Now, one can understand what sort of problems this gives rise to. And, there is a shortage of professionals in every single correctional facility.

I saw the Minister speaking to the Minister for the Public Service and Administration a bit earlier this afternoon, and I am assuming that he is now working out the deal to delink professionals from the Public Service salary scales.

However, there is another step, which the Minister may take, and I would like him to comment on that. To what extent is the Minister exploring partnerships with private professionals so that these private professionals can come in to relieve some of the problems with the shortages of professionals?

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Let me start with the last question. Because of the problems and challenges that face us when we get these professionals, or don’t get them, we already have partnerships in place.

In some of the prisons we use doctors who have clinics around there to come in and assist with the work that needs to be done. We do the same with other areas of our lives. We also use psychologists. So, we do have that kind of a partnership with them. But, we would prefer to have them employed full-time by Correctional Services so that they can continue their work without any impediments.

Secondly, we cannot delink their salaries from the salaries of the public sector. That would be wrong, but we are trying our best to make sure that at least we match, if not totally. We bring them up to speed with what they get from the private sector. We have tried to do that.

When you saw me talking to my colleague, Geraldine, I was not making a deal with her. I am not in the business of making deals with my colleagues. I either talk to them very nicely or – you know I am a very shy person - I write them letters. I know that sometimes I threaten to sit on them but I don’t do that. [Laughter.] You don’t see any one of them here that is flat because I have sat on them. So, you can see that they are all fine.

With regard to the Modderbee Prison visit, you are quite correct. I got the report on the Modderbee Prison visit and I must commend the portfolio committee led by Mr Dennis Bloem for the amount of visits that they do to all these correctional centres. It really assists the department and me in the work that we do.

Social workers are a problem. We are trying our best to get more and more social workers and I think we are starting to get there at the present moment. We need more because of the numbers of offenders that we have. But step by step we are getting there. [Time expired.]

    Allegations by woman of rape by SAPS members while in custody

1. Mrs J A Semple (DA) asked the Minister of Safety and Security:

   (1) Whether, during the period 1 January 2003 up to the latest specified date for which information is available, any women in SA Police Service custody have claimed that SAPS members raped them while they were in custody; if so, how many;

   (2) whether these claims were investigated; if not, why not; if so, how many SAPS members were found guilty of raping women in their custody;

   (3) whether these police officers were dismissed from the service as a result of their conviction; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? N1762E

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Madam Chairperson, in the past two and half years, there have been 13 women who claimed to have been raped by members of the SA Police Service while in their custody. In one case where such an allegation was made, the member was found guilty in a court of law and has since been dismissed from the service. Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Ms J A SEMPLE: Chairperson, I’m sure the hon Minister would agree with me that any incident of rape committed by a SAPS member is one too many. It is essential that vulnerable members of our society, particularly women, can look to SAPS for protection and know that they will be safe, whether they are in custody or not. Can the Minister tell the House whether any psychometric testing is done on potential SAPS recruits to see if they have tendencies towards violence against women? Has any research been done to see if this testing is effective and reliable? Thank you, Chairperson.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Madam Chairperson, yes, psychometric tests are indeed done when we recruit police officers. In fact, the recruitment process has changed somewhat from what previously we used to do. What we do now is that we take in people and they get trained. Of course, psychometric tests are part and parcel of that training. It is only after they have completed their training that they are then recruited into the police force. Therefore, chances are that during the training we are able to identify people whose conduct will not be conducive to conduct relevant to work as a peace officer, which members of the SA Police Service are. We have not done any assessment to check whether indeed those psychometric tests are foolproof. But we do conduct these psychometric tests.

Finally, I must say that it is unacceptable that any member of the SA Police Service will commit such a crime. They ought not to commit any crimes because they are law-enforcement officers. It is worse when they commit those kinds of dastardly crimes against people they are supposed to protect. Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr S N SWART: Thank you Deputy Chair. Minister, arising from your reply - you indicated that there were 13 cases - is it correct to assume that those cases are still being investigated and that the members have been suspended? Secondly, I’m sure that you are aware of the possibility of civil claims arising from damages that could have occurred in these situations. Are you aware of any civil cases for damages that raped women have instituted against you as the Minister of Safety and Security who carries liability for acts that these officers had committed? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Madam Chairperson, the answer to that question is yes. But unfortunately I did not prepare for that kind of follow-up, otherwise I would give details. I am unable to give details. But it is correct that some of these cases are still under investigation. It is true that there are some people who are suing for having been defiled by some members of the SA Police Service. Unfortunately, I don’t have the full details with respect to this. Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr L M GREEN: Chairperson, with Correctional Services, female correctional officers are trained and employed to work with female prisoners. One must understand that this is because these incidents need to be prevented. My question is: Why doesn’t the Department of Safety and Security use the same strategy in terms of employing female policewomen to work with female prisoners and to let them do that most of the time so that they have limited exposure to the male police officers to ensure that these kinds of crimes to do not happen?

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Madam Chairperson, it is not quite the same thing. In corrections you are talking about people who are detained in those correctional facilities. But with the police, you have cases like the one in KwaZulu-Natal last year when this person came into the community safety centre and reported that people were following her and that she feared for her life. The police who were on duty at the time - unfortunately they were males - decided that they were going to escort her. And she was raped. So, the experiences are different. Therefore, it’s not possible that at all times you will have female members of the SA Police Services who will be on hand to deal with members of the public who are female. Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

   Increased numbers of vehicles and personnel at police stations

1. Ms S Rajbally (MF) asked the Minister of Safety and Security:

   Whether police stations in all provinces have been provided with more resources with regard to (a) vehicles and (b) personnel so that the safety of communities and emergencies are more speedily attended to; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? N1749E

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: I wanted to go beyond simply saying, yes, but I don’t know what else I can say. We have vehicles and we have personnel and so on that can respond to emergencies in the service of the people. Thank you.

Ms S RAJBALLY: Thank you Minister, it is very encouraging to hear that. My question is: Does your department have anybody to monitor as to whether this situation prevails? Because many a time when we phone there is a problem. You will find that the police say: “There is no vehicle available at the moment. As soon as a vehicle becomes available we will come to attend to your problem.” Thank you.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Yes, that is true. Even when we do izimbizo and interact with people, this question is raised now and again, regarding situations where the police indeed say, “Unfortunately, we cannot respond to your cry for help because we don’t have a vehicle here.” At times, indeed, it is true that at that moment when they reply to you they don’t have vehicles because vehicles would have gone out to attend to other operations.

But with respect to the supply, at all our stations there are resources and there are vehicles. It boils down to, in many cases, the inability on the part of some of our members to correctly administer the resources that they have. Therefore, at times, they are unable to redirect the vehicles and personnel that they have on the basis of the emergencies that they have to confront. Thank you.

Ms A VAN WYK: Chair, Minister, we agree with you that part of the problem is the management of available resources, not only at station levels but sometimes even at provincial levels. We agree also that as far as we are concerned, there are enough resources available and that it’s a question of managing those resources.

We would like to know what is being done by the department to enhance the management at provincial and station levels, so that those people who are currently identified as not being able to sufficiently manage resources under their control are given an opportunity to enhance their capability and become better managers in terms of effectively utilising the resources?

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: We are deploying senior police management to various stations in the country. The first group went in from 1 June this year and therefore each one of the members of the senior management services of the police is in charge of given areas. They go to the stations and assist those who are responsible, that is station commissioners, to deal with some of these questions that relate to how, in the first instance, police have to behave whenever members of the public come in to lay complaints until those persons leave the police station, and how also to deploy the resources that the police have.

We believe that, because there is that kind of experience that we are now making available on the ground, things are going to improve. This relates to police stations where there were weaknesses in the past, because there are police stations where the police are doing very good work. I am sure hon members would have observed this while doing their constituency work and would agree with me in regard to that. But in these instances where there are weaknesses, that is how we have decided to handle the situation. Thank you.

Adv Z L MADASA: Enkosi. Mphathiswa, bendisancoma ngokwehla kweziganeko zokuphangwa kwezi nqwelo zithwala imali. Ngoku ndibona zivumbuluka kwakhona. Nanku umbuzo wam: Ingaba oku kuxhaphaka kwezi ziganeko kwakhona kunxulumene na nokunqaba kwezithuthi esebeni? Enkosi. (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)

[Adv Z L MADASA: Thank you, Minister, I appreciated the decreased incidence of cash-in-transit robberies. But they seem to have reappeared. My question is: Is it because of a scarcity of transport in the department? Thank you.]

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: That is very clever. You are trying to get me to release here and now the crime statistics, and I am not going to do that. They will be available on 21 September and you will see that . . .

. . . ezi ziganeko azinyukanga ngolu hlobo ulibalisayo. [ . . . there is not such a significant rise in these events as you would want us to believe.]

There is a very insignificant rise and, in fact, it will not be more than 10 but we will give you the numbers on 21 September. Thank you. [Interjections.] Well, it depends on your ability to count - two is big.

Mr R JANKIELSOHN: Deputy Speaker, Minister, what is being done to ensure that vehicles, especially vehicles that are on inventories are being utilised to their full potential because in many instances where the vehicles are available there are sometimes SA Police Service members who do not have driving licences to legally utilise those vehicles? What is being done to ensure that at each station where there are vehicles there are the necessary personnel with drivers’ licences, so that those vehicles can be utilised to their full potential? Thank you, Deputy Speaker.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Unfortunately I don’t know of a situation such as the one that you are describing. The fact of the matter is that every shift that we have in the police will have people on it who will be able to use all equipment available at that station during that shift, be it the weapons or vehicles that are available. So I am not aware of a situation where a vehicle would be available but with no police officials to drive that vehicle. If there are police stations like that, I am sure that, if not the station commissioners who are there, the area commissioners will obviously attend to something like that. I don’t know, I have not been told by anyone that such a situation indeed does exist. I thank you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The time allocated for questions has expired. Outstanding replies received will be printed in Hansard. Hon members, we have had a wonderful and successful women’s parliament. Some of the leaders with whom we were interacting are still around and some of them are with us in the gallery.

I would like to take this opportunity to mention some of those leaders. We have Mrs Mokaba in the gallery, the mother of the late Deputy Minister Peter Mokaba. [Applause.] Thanks, Mama. We have Mama Vuyiswa Nokwe and we have Miriam Mokoena, the wife of the late Batjhana Mokoena. [Applause.] We also have Mrs Peterson here with us.

I really want to make this appeal to members: Let us have the co-operation we had with the women’s parliament. All parties sent their veterans to participate and it was quite a wonderful exercise.

          APPOINTMENT OF MR K O BAPELA AS HOUSE CHAIRPERSON


                         (Draft Resolution)

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:

That, in the light of the position of House Chairperson occupied by Mr N P Nhleko becoming vacant due to his resignation as a member of the National Assembly, the House appoints Mr K O Bapela as House Chairperson with effect from 1 September 2005.

[Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I think that is an indication that there are no objections.

Agreed to.

The House adjourned 17:06. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Introduction of Bills

 (1)    The Minister of Finance


        i) Special Pensions Amendment Bill [B 28 – 2005] (National
           Assembly – sec 75) [Bill and prior notice of its introduction
           published in Government Gazette No 27981 of 30 August 2005.]


     Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on Finance of
     the National Assembly, as well as referral to the Joint Tagging
     Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint Rule 160, on
     1 September 2005.


     In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of
     the Bill may be submitted to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)
     within three parliamentary working days.

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson

 a) Report and Financial Statements of the Electoral Commission (IEC)
    on the Public Funding of Represented Political Parties Fund for
    2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
    Financial Statements for 2004-2005 [RP 67-2005].


(b)    Report and Financial Statements of the Public Protector of South
    Africa for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General
    on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005.

1. The Minister of Public Works

 a) Report and Financial Statements of Vote 6 – Department of Public
    Works for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General on
    the Financial Statements for 2004-2005 [RP 175-2005].

1. The Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs

 a) Report and Financial Statements of the Perishable Products Export
    Control Board (PPECB) for 2004-2005, including the Report of the
    Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005.

1. The Minister of Communications

   (a) Report and Financial Statements of the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa (ICASA) for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005 [RP 106-2005].

2. The Minister of Education

   a) Report and Financial Statements of the South African Qualification Authority (SAQA) for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005 [RP 154-2005].

3. The Minister of Arts and Culture

 a) Report and Financial Statements of The Playhouse Company for 2004-
    2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
    Statements for 2004-2005.

 b) Report and Financial Statements of Iziko Museums of Cape Town for
    2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
    Financial Statements for 2004-2005 [RP 53-2005].


 c) Report and Financial Statements of Business and Arts South Africa
    for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on
    the Financial Statements for 2004-2005.


 d) Report and Financial Statements of the War Museum of the Boer
    Republics for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-
    General on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005 [RP 127-2005].


 e) Report and Financial Statements of the National Library of South
    Africa for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General
    on the financial Statements for 2004-2005 [RP 145-2005].


 f) Report and Financial Statements of the Afrikaans Language Museum
    for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
    Financial Statements for 2004-2005.

National Assembly

1. The Speaker a) Report and Financial Statements of the Electoral Commission for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005 [RP 66-2005].

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Speaker of the National Assembly and the Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, as co-chairpersons, presented the First Report of the Joint Rules Committee for 2005, dated 25 August 2005: 1. In Joint Rule 1(1):

   Interpretation

   To insert the following definition in the appropriate alphabetical position:

   “Act” means the Powers, Privileges and Immunities of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures Act, 2004;

2. In Joint Rule 32:

   General Powers (of joint committees)

   To insert the following new Joint Rule 32(3) and (4):

   (3) Subject to the approval of the Speaker and Chairperson, the Secretary may pay to witnesses summonsed in terms of section 14(1) of the Act or rule 32(1)(a) of the Joint Rules a reasonable sum for travelling and attendance time and for transport expenses actually incurred.

   (4) Prior to a witness giving evidence before a House or committee, the member presiding shall inform the witness as follows:

    “Please be informed that by law you are required to answer fully
    and satisfactorily all the questions lawfully put to you, or to
    produce any document that you are required to produce, in
    connection with the subject matter of the enquiry,
    notwithstanding the fact that the answer or the document could
    incriminate you or expose you to criminal or civil proceedings,
    or damages. You are, however, protected in that evidence given
    under oath or affirmation before a House or committee may not be
    used against you in any court or place outside Parliament,
    except in criminal proceedings concerning a charge of perjury or
    a charge relating to the evidence or documents required in these
    proceedings.”
   

3. In Joint Rule 160:

   Referral of Bills to JTM

   To insert the following new Joint Rule 160(5A) after Joint Rule 160(5):

   (5A) The JTM must also make a finding whether a Bill pertains to customary law or customs of traditional communities in accordance with section 18(1) of the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Act, 2003.

4. In Joint Rule 163:

   Reclassification of Bills

   To insert the following new Joint Rule 163(3):

   (3) The JTM may change the classification of a Bill in respect of whether the Bill pertains to customary law or customs of traditional communities in accordance with section 18(1) of the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Act, 2003, and amend its finding in terms of rule 160(5A).

5. In Joint Rule 167:

   Process in committee To insert the following new Joint Rule 167(3)(i):

   [(3) The committee–]

       (i)      may report to the House in which the Bill was
          introduced if the Bill was classified as being subject to
          section 18(1) of the Traditional Leadership and Governance
          Framework Act, 2003, only after 30 days have passed since
          the referral to the National House of Traditional Leaders
          in terms of Assembly Rule 332 and Council Rule 255.
   

6.      In Joint Rule 216:

    Fast-tracking


    To insert the following new Joint Rule 216(7):

(7)     This rule does not apply to a Bill classified as being subject
    to section 18(1) of the Traditional Leadership and Governance
    Framework Act, 2003, which is still before the House where it was
    introduced for a period of 30 days since the referral to the
    National House of Traditional Leaders in terms of Assembly Rule 332
    and Council Rule 255.


The Committee recommends accordingly.

Report to be considered.

  B MBETE, MP                       M J MAHLANGU, MP SPEAKER:                     CHAIRPERSON: NATIONAL ASSEMBLY                       NATIONAL COUNCIL OF  PROVINCES

National Assembly:

1. The Speaker of the National Assembly presented the National Assembly Supplementary Report to the First Report of the Joint Rules Committee, 2005, dated 25 August 2005:

The Joint Rules Committee considered a report of the Joint Subcommittee
on the Review of Rules on 3 June 2005. In addition to amendments to
certain Joint Rules, amendments were proposed in respect of National
Assembly Rules. These amendments were agreed to by the Joint Rules
Committee of which the Assembly Rules Committee is a component. The
following amendments to the National Assembly Rules were agreed to and
are recommended to the House for adoption:


1.      General Powers (of committees)


After Rule 138, to insert the following new Rule 138A:

    138A.    Prior to a witness giving evidence before a House or
          committee, the member presiding shall inform the witness as
          follows:

          “Please be informed that by law you are required to answer
          fully and satisfactorily all the questions lawfully put to
          you, or to produce any document that you are required to
          produce, in connection with the subject matter of the
          enquiry, notwithstanding the fact that the answer or the
          document could incriminate you or expose you to criminal or
          civil proceedings, or damages. You are, however, protected in
          that evidence given under oath or affirmation before a House
          or committee may not be used against you in any court or
          place outside Parliament, except in criminal proceedings
          concerning a charge of perjury or a charge relating to the
          evidence or documents required in these proceedings.”


 2. In Rule 249:


    Process in committee (of Bills)
    To insert the following new Rule 249(3)(i):


       [(3) The Committee-]


       (i)   may report to the Assembly on a Bill introduced in the
          Assembly and classified as being subject to section 18(1) of
          the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Act,
          2003, only after 30 days have passed since the referral to
          the National House of Traditional Leaders in terms of rule
          332.

1. To insert the following new Rule 332:

2. Referral of Bills to National House of Traditional Leaders

   1. (1) The Secretary must refer a Bill to the National House of Traditional Leaders if the JTM has made a finding that the Bill pertains to customary law or customs of traditional communities in accordance with rule 160 of the Joint Rules.

      (2) The Secretary must inform the Speaker and the chairperson of the portfolio committee to which the Bill was referred of the date of referral, which date must be published in the relevant parliamentary paper.

The Committee recommends accordingly.

Report to be considered.

B MBETE, MP SPEAKER

1. Heading of Report

   The heading of the Report of the Portfolio Committee on Finance, published in the Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports of 29 August 2005 (p 1713), contained an error, in that it indicated the date of adoption as 17 August 2005. It should read:

   Report of the Portfolio Committee on Finance on the Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of Malaysia for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes, dated 26 August 2005:

2. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Minerals and Energy on Report No 30 of the Public Protector of South Africa, constituted in terms of section 182(1)(b) of the Constitution, 1996, and section 8(2)(b) of the Public Protector Act, 1994, dated 31 August 2005:

 The Portfolio Committee on Minerals and Energy, having considered the
 matter on the Report of the Public Protector on an Investigation into
 an Allegation of Misappropriation of Public Funds by the Petroleum Oil
 and Gas Corporation of South Africa, Trading as PetroSA, and Matters
 Allegedly Related Thereto, reports as follows:

     1. The Committee is satisfied with the investigative processes
        followed and outlined in the report;
     2. Is satisfied that consultative processes had taken place between
        the Public Protector and implicated parties;
     3. And supports the key findings and recommendations contained in
        the Report.


   The Committee, in terms of its oversight function over the Central
   Energy Fund (CEF), undertakes to follow up on the processes PetroSA
   has in place to ensure that the outstanding amount owed by Imvume is
   recovered.

Report to be considered.