WEDNESDAY, 14 SEPTEMBER 2005 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

                                ____

The House met at 15:02.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

                             NEW MEMBERS


                           (Announcement)

The Speaker announced that the vacancies caused by the resignation from the National Assembly of Mr P S Molefe, Mr J G Zuma, Ms P N Mnandi, Ms H M Mpaka, Ms R R Joemat, Ms M N Magazi, Ms N R Ntshulana-Bhengu and Mr E M Dipico had been filled by the nomination, with effect from 2 September 2005, of Ms M L Matsemela, Mr G Lekgetho, Mr S L Dithebe, Ms M J J Matsomela, Mr AF Madella, Ms W Ngwenya, Mr M A Cele and Mr T J Bonhomme respectively.

Ms M L Matsemela, Mr G Lekgetho, Mr S L Dithebe, Ms M J J Matsomela, Mr A F Madella, Ms W Ngwenya, Mr M A Cele and Mr T J Bonhomme, accompanied by Ms M M Malumise and Mr D M Gumede, made and subscribed the oath or solemn affirmation and took their seats.

                     CHANGES IN PARTY MEMBERSHIP


                           (Announcement)

The SPEAKER: Hon members, I would like to announce changes in party membership that have occurred in terms of Schedule 6A to the Constitution. Mr Y Wang has, on 14 September 2005, left the ID and joined the ANC. Mr C V Burgess has, on 14 September 2005, left the ID and joined the ANC.

Mr D A A OLIFANT: Madam Speaker, on a point of order, does that mean that Mr Wang now has a real ID? [Laughter.] [Applause.]

The SPEAKER: Hon member, I will leave that to your interpretation. Hon members, it is my real honour to welcome to the South African Parliament our guests : members of the delegation led by the hon Mr Abdul Wahid M Al- Awadi, who is the head of the parliamentary delegation of the national assembly of the state of Kuwait. [Applause.] The delegation is accompanied by the ambassador of the state of Kuwait to the Republic of South Africa, His Excellency, Mr Salem Al Zamanan. You are welcome.

                      UNPARLIAMENTARY LANGUAGE


                              (Ruling)

The SPEAKER: Hon members, before we proceed, I wish to make a ruling on what transpired in the House on 23 August during members’ statements. The hon Ms H Zille of the DA, in reference to the so-called oil-gate scandal said, and I quote:

It is the utmost corruption that any government can perpetrate, yet none of the parties involved have adequately explained what amounts to a gross abuse of state resources for the ANC’s political gain.

The hon Deputy Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development subsequently raised a point of order, asking that the remarks be withdrawn unconditionally on the basis that the government had not been found guilty of corruption.

In response to the Deputy Minister’s point of order, I indicated that I would check the Hansard and come back to the issue. Having now had the opportunity to consider the Hansard, I wish to rule as follows.

Government is a broad concept that is viewed as such by people. According to established practice, reflections on government are generally acceptable, just as in practice they are on parties. Had the contested remark been with particular reference to a member of this House, it would have been unparliamentary.

Therefore under the circumstances, I am of the view that the statement by Ms Zille is not unparliamentary, but it is a matter of debate. Whether the government has or has not been found guilty of corruption in regard to a particular matter is not relevant to this ruling.

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY:

DEPUTY PRESIDENT:

Assistance by the Presidency to former Deputy President Mr Jacob Zuma

18. Mrs S M Camerer (DA) asked the Deputy President:


  Whether the Presidency has at any time contributed any (a) funds from
  the money budgeted for the Presidency, (b) legal and/or (c) other
  assistance to former Deputy President Mr Jacob Zuma in relation to the
  trial of Mr Shabir Shaik and/or the charges currently faced by Mr
  Zuma; if not, what factors were taken into consideration in reaching
  this conclusion; if so, (i) who authorised the funds or assistance,
  (ii) what are the relevant details of the funds or assistance provided
  and (iii) why?
  N1943E The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, hon members, the answer to this question is that the Presidency agreed to fund a watching brief for Mr Zuma in the trial of Mr Schabir Shaik. The decision was taken after considering a recommendation by the Chief State Law Adviser and the uniqueness of the case in that, although the then Deputy President was not charged in the matter, the majority of allegations that had to be answered in court involved him directly; but also noting that there was no precedent that could be relied upon for guidance under the unique circumstances. The accounts were settled by the state attorneys, but no payments have as yet been made from the Presidency’s budget.

No application has been submitted to the Presidency in relation to the charges currently faced by Mr Zuma. [Applause.]

Mrs S M CAMERER: Madam Speaker, Madam Deputy President, I think the DA has made its view known, namely that taxpayers’ funds should not be used for this purpose because the generally corrupt relationship which the court found Mr Zuma had with Mr Shaik was surely not conducted in the course of his duties, either as an MEC or as the Deputy President. I would be interested in the Deputy President’s view of this. I would also be interested to know, and I am sure the House would like to know, how much of the taxpayers’ money has been allocated to meet these bills? Thank you. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon member. As I stated in my answer, there is no precedent for this. In this particular matter the Deputy President was not charged and the Presidency was advised by the Chief State Law Adviser, whose guidance we often seek on matters like these. So there is nothing untoward on the part of the Presidency.

The relevant amount is not yet known to us because we have not yet received an account from the state law advisers. However, I advise the hon member to raise the question with the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development, who will in due course, handle it.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Deputy President whether she thinks the question is informed by a concern for taxpayers’ money. Previously, state money was used to pay for the defence of Magnus Malan . . . [Interjections.] . . . and of Basson. [Interjections.] Absolutely no questions were asked then. [Interjections.] The two were facing charges for more heinous crimes, but the state paid for their defence and there was not even a murmur. [Interjections.]

What, in the opinion of the Deputy President, informs these questions? [Interjections.] . . . [Applause.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: I submit that the hon Chief Whip of the Majority Party’s question is out of order, because he asks for an . . . [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order!

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I am addressing the Speaker, not you! [Laughter.] The question by the hon Chief Whip of the Majority Party is out of order because he asks for an opinion. A question should not be phrased that way.

The SPEAKER: This is a follow-up question and I leave it to the Deputy President to decide whether she would like to answer the question or not.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, I concur with the Chief Whip of the Majority Party. I think of an evil person and the name Wouter Basson comes to mind. I can’t even count the amount of money, taxpayers’ money, this country has had to pay for his court defence as a result of the heinous crimes he committed. So there is no comparison. [Applause.]

Mr M SWART: Madam Speaker, hon Deputy President, one clearly needs to distinguish between state legal aid and state legal aid where one operates in the course and scope of your governance. Would you not agree, given that state law advisers are investigating the corruption charges levelled against former Deputy President Zuma in relation to his role in governance and whether that role qualifies him for state legal aid, that could result in a precedent where allegations of corruption are concerned?

I am fully aware of legal aid being granted to people who are indigent or do not have sufficient means and I believe that that was the situation in the cases referred to earlier. [Interjections.] But can we afford to send out a message, in view of the ongoing fight against corruption, particularly in the public sector, that we are using government funds to fund legal aid for a person who has acted in the course and scope of his governance? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What we paid for was a watching brief, hon member. In any case, I think all of us will agree that it was important for the Presidency to be informed and to be able to follow what was happening in the course of that trial. In any case, I will have to consult my lawyer, Madam Brigitte Mabandla, about the details. [Laughter.] . . . [Applause.]

The SPEAKER: Hon Camerer, in the absence of any other member asking a follow-up question, I will allow you to take a second slot, although it is not the usual procedure.

Mrs S M CAMERER: Madam Speaker, I gathered one had the opportunity to do so when there was nobody else asking a follow-up question.

The SPEAKER: Sure! That’s what I’m saying.

Mrs S M CAMERER: The rest of the opposition seems to be very silent on this issue this afternoon. [Interjections.] There is hardly any of them left here!

Madam Deputy President made the point that the lawyers acting for the former Deputy President were holding a watching brief, so it wasn’t as though he was the accused in the matter. But, applying that principle, would you not agree that it would be inappropriate for the Presidency to fund the legal costs of the former Deputy President where he is the accused facing charges of corruption, which occurred in the course of his action in his office? That is the first aspect that I would be interested in.

Following on what you have just said, Deputy President, could you just clarify the following: Has there indeed not been any application by the former Deputy President to the Presidency or any other government department to cover these costs?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, there has been no such request. The other question, therefore, falls away, because it’s really academic. Thank you. [Laughter.] [Applause.] Assistance to women, the disabled and the youth operating businesses in the second economy

19. Dr M Sefularo (ANC) asked the Deputy President:

  What linkages to and initiatives in sectors in the first economy have
  been identified by the Government to assist women, the disabled and
  the youth operating businesses in the second economy?
                                    N1949E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, you welcomed our Kuwaiti guests on the gallery. I also want to congratulate them on the advances they’ve recently made, namely the involvement of women in politics.

I think they will enjoy this question. [Applause.]

The question is what linkages and initiatives in sectors in the first economy have been identified by government to assist women, the disabled and the youth operating businesses in the second economy.

The reply is: Our broad economic policy is to eradicate poverty and unemployment in our society, with particular focus on the most vulnerable. Because women, the youth and the disabled are in the majority in our society, many government policies make provision for these groups.

Specific targets are, therefore, set for women, the disabled and the youth in the government’s empowerment policies, entrepreneurial development programmes, small business development programmes, employment equity and other programmes. As a result of time constraints, I will not go into the details of all the initiatives that we have. I will just highlight some of the laws that specifically target the empowerment of women, the youth and the disabled.

The Broad-Based Economic Empowerment Act of 2003, which ensures that a great number of our people, including women, are brought into the mainstream economy, addresses and sets targets that are specifically for the benefit of these groups. The Employment Equity Act provides for affirmative action and protection against unfair discrimination based on gender and disability.

The Minerals and Petroleum Resources Development Act of 2004, amongst other things, entrenches the right of women to participate in the minerals and energy industries. The Preferential Procurement Act allows women, the youth and the disabled to secure tenders and render service for government departments.

The government has implemented various measures to encourage financial institutions to extend credit to women and other historically disadvantaged groups. These include such measures as the recently signed agreement between the Department of Public Works and Absa bank, which facilitates access to credit for women in construction.

The Office on the Status of Disabled Persons in the Presidency is also working with the Department of Trade and Industry on a targeted assistance programme on SMME development for the disabled. Government support programmes in targeted groups include the disabled.

Umsobomvu was established to assist and promote a number of youth initiatives. These include youth career-building initiatives, employment entrepreneurship information and advice, and a graduate database that links unemployed graduates to job opportunities.

There are also youth entrepreneurship programmes that provide access to finance and business development support. The programme is provided through a voucher to young entrepreneurs, which they use to pay for services from an accredited service provider.

To promote entrepreneurship, Umsobomvu has started the entrepreneurship education programme, currently running in 30 schools. Hon members, it is clear that the general direction of government policy is inclusive and is also targeted to ensure that women, disabled persons and young people don’t fall through the cracks. Thank you. [Applause.]

Ms L L MABE: Deputy President, how far has the finance sector gone to ensure that women, the disabled and the youth gain access to credit, which has been a major stumbling block to their active participation in the economy, regardless of the good ideas that they have? How far has the finance sector gone in addressing that problem? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon member, I first have to start off by saying that we cannot say “regardless of the good ideas”. A financial service provider has to provide credit. It is important that the idea being financed is bankable.

So our starting point and our commitment as government are that people who have ideas that have the potential to make a contribution towards the development of the economy and to their personal empowerment need to be a given a chance.

As far as government-related institutions are concerned - that is your Khula, your empowerment fund, as well as your IDC - there is always the requirement when a transaction is entered into that the applicants must indicate whether there is going to be direct or indirect benefits to women. The statistics are, unfortunately, not available at this point.

However, regarding the private sector, we are certainly still struggling. In the financial services charter there has been an effort to address this issue. For instance, the Mzansi account, which in part provides microcredit to get started with, is meant to bring into the banking network many, many women for whom banking services have been out of reach. We still need to evaluate the impact that we have been able to make in that regard.

Government also has its own newly established microcredit financer, Mafisa, as well as support for people in the co-op sector. We anticipate that in that sector lots of women will benefit. Thank you.

Mr B W DHLAMINI: Madam Speaker, hon Deputy President, the President of this country, hon Thabo Mbeki, called on the private sector, especially in the first economy, to embark on a mentorship programme for small-business people in the second economy, the youth and women. Could the Deputy President indicate to us how far the programme has gone? Is there any progress? Are there any success stories and what are the challenges, especially in the mining industry?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: In general, hon member, across the economy there hasn’t been significant development as far as this particular initiative is concerned and we would like to encourage the private sector to heed the call of the President and use learnerships and other means to bring young people and women into their fold for the purpose of mentoring.

Mrs C DUDLEY: Hon Deputy President, I want to ask which specific business credit initiatives have been instituted by government to facilitate entrepreneurial opportunities for targeted groups within the second economy? You did mention Absa’s involvement in a specific programme, as well as Khula, the empowerment fund and IDC.

However, thinking of small enterprises as they exist in the second economy, they tend to be necessity entrepreneurs, or what is sometimes called the nonentrepreneurial self-employed, whose demand for credit is limited by the fact that they are unable to form contractual relationships with buyers in order to ensure a reasonable, constant cash flow.

To what extent has such business credit schemes been successful? You said just now that this was one particular aspect you were unable to assess. Have you been able to broadly assess this aspect in terms of the second economy?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The Apex fund, for instance, which is quite new and therefore we are not in a position to give you the results of the assessment thereof, will give us some of the answers that the hon member is looking for, I hope. However, Khula did have a special fund, which was targeted at entrepreneurs who were looking for sums of money of around R10

1. They needed to approach Khula as a group or in a stokvel type of arrangement.

In many cases, in the rural areas in particular, this was quite successful. They got involved in things like feeding schemes and the cultural industry. Some of them graduated from there to become well-structured microentrepreneurs, etc. I will ask the Department of Trade and Industry to supply you with more information about the success of that initiative.

Ms J A SEMPLE: Hon Deputy President, we presume that the Presidential Women’s Working Group was set up partly to address these kinds of problems. At a recent meeting of this working group it was reported that government would consider giving priority in the awarding of government tenders to companies owned by women. Can the Deputy President assure this House that when these tenders are awarded, consideration will be given to all companies owned by women, not just companies that are owned by certain groups of women? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, as is the case where all government tenders and contracts are concerned, there is indeed no preferred group of women or persons. We are considering reviewing the Procurement Act to strengthen it and in part, we will seek to ensure that we cover women even more closely than is the case currently.

      Progress in relation to hosting of 2010 Soccer World Cup


20. Mr B M Komphela (ANC) asked the Deputy President:

  What (a) progress has the Government made in meeting its commitments
  and deadlines as agreed to with FIFA upon being awarded the
  opportunity to host the 2010 Soccer World Cup, (b) outstanding
  commitments must still be met in this regard by the end of 2005 and
  (c) organisational framework has been put in place to co-ordinate the
  preparations for the 2010 Soccer World Cup?
                               N1950E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, this question from hon Komphela asks about the programmes we have put in place in relation to the 2010 Soccer World Cup.

Let me reiterate government’s commitment to ensuring that all the requirements set by Fifa for the hosting of the 2010 Soccer World Cup are met. These requirements range from building the necessary roads to ensuring that we host a successful Soccer World Cup that promotes soccer in this country, the continent and the world, as well as our commitment to ensuring that good - quality infrastructure is in place for the tournament. This infrastructure relates not only to the venues where the events will be held but also to other matters such as transport, accommodation, etc.

I am pleased to report that government is ahead in meeting its obligations. In addition, I know that the Minister of Communications wants to ensure that we will have the appropriate infrastructure to ensure that the whole world will be able to enjoy – whether from a cell phone, TV or a computer – watching the matches as they are being played in South Africa.

The only outstanding commitments relate to the need to pass the Special and Financial Measures Bill, which will consolidate all legal guarantees. Originally, we were required to enact the two Bills before the end of the year. However, in terms of an agreement between Fifa and the local organising committee, this deadline has been extended to June this year. This is because certain technical information has not being finalised.

The local organising committee consists of representatives of government, the SA Football Association and the business sector. The CEO of this structure is Mr Danny Jordaan, and he and his staff are responsible for the implementation of the local organising committee’s board decisions.

On the side of government, we have established an interministerial committee, chaired by me, to drive government’s commitment towards the successful implementation of the Fifa World Cup, because my soccer skills are well known. [Laughter.]

A technical committee, to ensure that our responsibilities are implemented in a co-ordinated fashion, has also been established. The committee is chaired by the Deputy Minister of Finance, Mr Jabu Moleketi, and earlier last month, Cabinet approved the appointment of Dr Joe Phaahla, the former CEO of the SA Sports Commission, as government co-ordinator to lead the implementation of government commitments.

Mr B M KOMPHELA: Thank you, Deputy President. I definitely believe, Deputy President, that as far as the answer is concerned, the Deputy President has very good football skills. [Laughter.]

Throughout the provinces and all over the country, municipalities and other people are waiting anxiously, and time and again the Minister of Sport says . . .

Hambani kancane, madoda. [Go slowly, gentlemen.]

We want to find out, Deputy President, which implementing agency, or which sphere of government, is going to take charge of this big and important task of constructing the infrastructure in preparation for the 2010 World Cup in this country. Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, all on the activities of the bid are co-ordinated centrally through the Department of Sport and Recreation and now that we have appointed Mr Phaahla, he obviously will play a very important role.

When it comes to the implementation of infrastructure, there are opportunities for partnerships between the public and private sectors and, at provincial and local level, it will be possible for those spheres of government to be implementing agencies.

However, what we will not have, clearly, is a situation where those spheres of government on their own decide and dictate the nature of these projects. These projects are centrally divided and, in a consultative process, are allocated to the most appropriate sphere of government. These must be on budget and they must meet the relevant Public Finance Management Act regulations or that of the Local Government: Municipal Finance Management Act, whichever the case may be.

Mr S J MASANGO: Deputy Speaker and Deputy President, three weeks ago we the portfolio committee, met Safa, and we asked Safa when it was going to inform the public about the stadiums earmarked for the 2010 World Cup. Safa said that we shouldn’t be asking them when and where, but who is going to be building the stadiums?

Deputy President, I want to know whether the government accepts responsibility for ensuring that the necessary stadiums are built or upgraded for the 2010 Soccer World Cup.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, yes, this is a South African bid, which was won on behalf of and for the people of South Africa and, of course, also for the people of Africa.

So, government will do everything to ensure that the infrastructure that is necessary is in place and on time.

We, as the committee in government, will be working together very closely to monitor whether the different spheres of government with the responsibility to implement these projects are proceeding on time.

Ms S RAJBALLY: Deputy President, I am very happy to hear of your interest in soccer. I’d like to see you kicking a ball one day! [Laughter.] You are very young; you can do it.

We as South Africans are proud to host the 2010 Soccer World Cup. My question to you is whether a special concession will be given to the poorer section of society so that they can buy tickets cheaper to watch the games at the stadiums. Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That matter is still under consideration, hon member. The brief of the South African party is to try to see if there will be a mechanism to ensure that our poorer soccer-loving public is afforded this opportunity.

I do want to assure the members that in my younger days I played for a club called Indunduma Young Tigers. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: There is a question here. What position did you play in?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Goalkeeper, Deputy Speaker. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: That is why we have heard so little about that team! [Laughter.]

There is another slot here.

Mr B W DLHAMINI: Deputy Speaker, and Deputy President, in preparation for the 2010 Soccer Cup, it is only a blind person who cannot see that government is serious about infrastructure.

My problem is that we don’t need, as a country, only to host but also to win. One of the steps that has been taken is the memorandum of understanding that has been signed between the Departments of Sport and Recreation and Education. However, there isn’t enough money.

Can the Presidency, and more especially your love for soccer, prevail on the Minister of Finance to put more money into school sports so that we are able to tap the talent and win, and not only host the tournament? Thank you. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon member, I will try and tackle the Minister of Finance. [Applause.]

        Failure of local government to deliver basic services

1. Mr W P Doman (DA) asked the Deputy President:

   Whether Cabinet has discussed the failure of the local sphere of government to deliver basic services in terms of its mandate; if not, why not; if so, (a) what key factors have been identified as contributing to this failure and (b) what steps are being taken to rectify these problems? N1944E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, it is our view that local government has not failed to deliver services, but that it is indeed experiencing challenges, in particular as a result of historic factors that need to be attended to so that it can be adequately empowered to meet its responsibilities.

The challenges that municipalities are experiencing are evaluated and discussed by Cabinet on a regular basis. In fact, nothing is more important to us as the executive and to the President in particular than ensuring that we address the challenges that we face at local government level. A number of these challenges were listed by the President when he replied to a question in this House last week.

With regard to steps taken to address these problems, one of the initiatives undertaken by government is Project Consolidate. This is a hands-on initiative with 136 municipalities, to assist them in building their capacity to improve service delivery, local economic development, financial viability, municipal transformation and good governance. We have also roped in the private sector to assist us in this regard.

This process is further complemented by the municipal izimbizo programme, of which the President also gave details last week. The programme involves meetings with mayors, councillors and municipal officials, as well as meetings with ward committees; and it allows for an in-depth evaluation of the problems experienced by the affected municipalities in the districts.

A number of municipalities have thus been visited by the President, by me, by Ministers and by government officials to have a hands-on experience of what is happening on the ground and to make informed interventions.

Sector departments, provinces, public entities and the private sector are now also involved in supporting the municipalities with planning, capacity- building on sector technical standards and norms, implementation, monitoring, evaluating and auditing of local programmes as implemented by municipalities.

Government is therefore taking a practical approach to ensure that all systems are in place to allow the local sphere of government to be able to deliver services in terms of its mandate.

Mr W P DOMAN: Deputy President, thank you very much for that comprehensive reply. We agree that there are historic reasons. But apart from that, Madam Deputy President, in its very honest report on skills levels in municipalities, the department observed last week that there are shocking shortages of skills in local government and, they said, chiefly because of transformation and employment equity. We, as the DA, believe that this is a direct result of overzealous transformation of the work environment along racial lines by the majority of ANC mayors and executive committees.

Now, I want to ask you: Will the government not consider relaxing the employment equity requirements in local government, especially in the 136 municipalities that cannot fulfil their basic functions; and with that, consider a means of conveying the message to ANC mayors and the executive committees that service delivery is more important than the colour of the skin of those senior managers that who deliver those services? [Applause.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Deputy Speaker, South Africa has massive skills shortages. Labour is sold by those who possess skills wherever they choose to. Many of the people whom we have lost in the local government sphere were not necessarily chased out. They opted for greener pastures.

The work at local government level is not for the faint-hearted. It is for those people who really want to go the extra mile. Some of those people, because they had good CVs – apartheid had afforded them an opportunity to work without having to compete for the jobs they dominated - have been able to go and sell their skills anywhere, and they ran away from where they were needed most. So it is not a question of actually chasing them away. [Applause.]

You will have to produce proof of people who want to come back and are being kept out. And as the President said last week, we would be willing to look into those cases, because we are indeed looking at reinforcing capacity. That is why in our work with the private sector we have asked them to bring in even their retired people who would be willing to co- operate and collaborate with us. We then deploy them to actually work there and mentor the up-and-coming people in the system. [Applause.]

Ms L M MASHIANE: Madam Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy President, I would like to commend the strategic intervention by government of and I believe that the support you referred to will go a long way towards assisting municipalities with challenges in service delivery.

The current system of local government is only five years old. What are the lessons that government has learnt over this period? And, seeing that rural municipalities make up the bulk of municipalities in Project Consolidate, what other government measures are there to address these disparities and ensure that rural municipalities realise their optimal potential and keep up momentum in the provision of services? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon member. In the five years of the local government system, one of the things that we have learnt is the importance of consulting communities about their priorities and the manner in which we phase in communities. That is reason the integrated development programmes were introduced, because they afford a formal consultative process between the municipality and the communities that they service. There has therefore been an effort to integrate the views of the community into the planning and the programmes that are financed and implemented by local government.

We have also learnt that it is important to have a structured financial management system at local government level, and that is the reason a special version of the Public Finance Management Act was developed and is now being implemented at a local government level. I am referring to the Local Government: Municipal Finance Management Act.

We also learnt that in some cases people want to relate to government about services within the municipality and outside the municipality, and so far we have not been able to have all of the services closest to the people so that they have people who can answer some of their questions.

We have therefore started the programme of community development workers, who literally are government’s fieldworkers. They try to interface between communities and councillors and between communities and the different service providers in all spheres of government. Many of these are graduates and therefore highly skilled, and they are able to hand-hold old people and people with limited education through the system so that they can expose them to the services that are available from government.

We’ve also learnt about the importance of the ward system. That is why, in the municipal imbizos, which we have been following up with the President and other Ministers, we have focused on trying to build and strengthen the ward system, because it is one of the smallest and closest units within a community, where government and the community are able to make decisions together.

In order to address the disparities between the urban and rural areas, we have, as you know, the Rural Development Strategy. We identified the nodes

• those areas that are the poorest districts in South Africa. Within those areas we have devoted specific programmes and resources to addressing the challenges at municipal level.

Of course, now, with the accelerated and shared - growth initiative, we are not just looking at the economy growing, we are looking at how the growth in the economy will be shared. Part of that is looking at how you can support small towns so that whatever economic development and growth ensues, we are able to ensure that these small towns and the rural areas are also beneficiaries. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mrs C DUDLEY: Hon Deputy President, to what extent has the deployment of community development workers addressed government’s failure to deliver at local government level?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I don’t think that their deployment addresses the failure, but is government’s recognition of the need to increase the capacity of government to deliver. It is a considered lesson about the need continuously to enhance our proximity to the people. It is about employment creation, which I am sure we all appreciate, because it, in particular, brings in young people who have a community concern to work within the communities that they live in and love to serve.

Mr W P DOMAN: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. Deputy President, I agree with you that local government is not for the faint-hearted, but, apart from people who were not prepared to take on the challenges of the new South Africa, we know of a lot of people who are or were fully committed to the new South Africa. I can think of one person who was so active in the struggle that he was called a white communist in the previous dispensation and he lost his position just because he was white. [Interjections.]

So, I want to ask you: Will the government not consider asking the Minister for Provincial and Local Government to do the same as the Minister of Education, who has a list of all qualified teachers who are looking for positions - she has such a list - and that the Minister for Provincial and Local Government take a leaf out of that book and also compile such a list of people who are willing to work, who have the skills, who were employed? We as the DA will contribute quite a number of names. [Applause.] [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We wouldn’t have a problem with that, hon member. Just don’t come and infiltrate your people that you want to get rid of from somewhere else. So, people must have a proven track record and a willingness to serve. So we can happily talk about it.

                             MINISTERS:





                  Innovative test for HIV infection

1. Dr R Rabinowitz (IFP) asked the Minister of Health:

   (1) Whether a test that detects HIV infection within the first three weeks has been identified; if not, what is the allegedly innovative test identified by scientists of Wits University working at a certain clinic (name furnished) in Johannesburg; if so, on what principle is the test based;

   (2) whether the test has been accredited for general use; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (3) whether the test detects HIV infection during the highly infectious window period; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the (a) relevant details and (b) implications of this test on the management and treatment of HIV and the prevention of Aids;

   (4) (a) what is the cost of this test compared to the cost of standard HIV tests used in clinics and hospitals and (b) how does this test differ from the polymerise chain reaction used to identify the HIV virus? N1843E

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Question 92 has been asked by the hon Dr R Rabinowitz to the Minister of Health. Unfortunately, the Minister of Health was unable to be in the House owing to a family bereavement. She has indicated that she will submit written responses.

    Progress in relation to Prestwich Street burial-grounds issue

1. Mr M R Sonto (ANC) asked the Minister of Arts and Culture: Whether any progress has been made to harmonise the Prestwich issue; if not, why not; if so, (a) what progress and (b) what legislation has been put in place in this regard? N1638E

The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Madam Deputy Speaker, the Prestwich project committee appealed against the decision of the SA Heritage Resources Agency that development on the Prestwich Street burial grounds should continue.

In terms of section 49 of the National Heritage Resources Act, Act 25 of 1999, a tribunal was appointed to consider the appeal. The tribunal was satisfied that consultations with the public and potentially interested and affected persons and organisations were adequate and reasonable in the circumstances and fulfilled the requirements of the National Heritage Resources Act.

Sufficient notice had been taken of the need to balance the socio-economic and scientific value of the find and its significance to the people of Cape Town and South Africa.

The tribunal and the Department of Arts and Culture, therefore, support the recommendation that the city of Cape Town, in consultation with SA Heritage Resources Agency, should construct a suitable memorial park or garden on an appropriate site in the Green Point area where the Prestwich Street remains can be interred with any other further finds of human remains. Such a park could become the focus of the community’s memory and learning about the past. The Department of Arts and Culture supports the ruling of the tribunal, as a reburial of the human remains will ensure that the remains are properly protected while the memorial will ensure that these people are remembered.

The memorial will be protected as a heritage site in terms of the National Heritage Resources Act. Therefore, question (b) falls away. Thank you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Minister. Just before we proceed to the follow-up questions, the level of noise is unbearable, hon members. There are too many meetings taking place and those meetings have our blessings as long as they take place outside the House. Thank you.

Mr M R SONTO: Thank you, Minister, for such an elaborate reply. Based on that reply, Minister, would you agree that this reburial and memorial would be an important link between the past and the present, such as in our campaign to entrench a human rights culture in our country? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Madam Deputy Speaker, the reburial of the remains of the corpses found at Prestwich Street, of course, is consistent with the government’s policy, first of all, of showing respect to those who have passed on and also in terms of preserving that past, or aspects of it, for our heritage and as a means for our young people to learn about the country’s past. Secondly, it’s also consistent with our human rights culture. Thank you.

Mrs D VAN DER WALT: Madam Deputy Speaker, given that emotions run high around such incidents and the Minister has presumably referred the matter to the South Africa Heritage Resources Agency, can he tell us what action they have taken on this matter, or what SAHRA recommends be done, so that this case is not dealt with on an ad hoc basis?

I accept the answer on the memorial park, but maybe the Minister can then also tell us when it would be ready, so that in future others do not use the same park, and this matter should not be dealt with on ad hoc basis.

The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Madam Deputy Speaker, I don’t think it’s possible, at this juncture, to say that we would do this, that or the other about human remains that are found. We first have to discover what the significance of such human remains is. For example, one could very easily find human remains beneath this very Parliament, which used to be the site of the grazing ground of the Gouriqua Qua tribe that Van Riebeeck found here at the Cape. Now those people are not linked to the people who were found at Prestwich Street.

We could very well also find human remains in areas such as Simon’s Town and elsewhere, which are not necessarily linked; so one can’t make a decision that all human remains will be treated in a specific way. You have to treat them on an ad hoc basis because every case is different from the other.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Minister. The hon Camerer said earlier that it seems as though people are tired this afternoon. There are no other questions for you.

Infringement of rights of South African music artists by international artists

1. Mrs N D Mbombo (ANC) asked the Minister of Arts and Culture:

   Whether, with reference to a media report (details furnished) regarding the infringement of music rights by international artists on South African music artists, the Government has any mechanisms in place for protecting and safeguarding our culture and folklore; if not, why not; if so, (a) what mechanisms and (b) how are they implemented? N1878E

The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Madam Deputy Speaker, the answer is extremely long, so you will have to bear with me.

The question refers to the infringement of the music rights of South African music artists by international artists. The case that I am currently aware of is the one that involves Helmut Lotti, in a Belgian court, to overturn the claim by Lotti that Jikel’emaweni and the click song, known as uQongqothwane, originated from traditional folk songs and not in the public domain.

These songs were made world famous by Miriam Makeba and were melodically rearranged by Joe Mogotsi and the Manhattan Brothers. Apparently Helmut Lotti’s version is based on Miriam Makeba’s version, as arranged by Joe Mogotsi and the Manhattan Brothers.

Regarding the mechanisms to protect and safeguard the copyright of the South African musicians at home and internationally, the hon member will recall that in 2000 my predecessor instituted the music industry task team to investigate various problems and challenges pertaining to the development of the music industry.

The team was tasked to do the following: Firstly, to receive written submissions from stakeholders, consult and recommend to the Ministry various strategies that can be adopted to address the problems of the industry; secondly, to examine the inadequacy of the legislative framework governing the industry and to make recommendations; thirdly, to appraise the various systems and instruments, such as contracts, piracy, recording, distribution, publishing of music, royalty collection and distribution, needle time, etc, and identify actions that would address problem areas; and fourthly, provide advice to government on its role in the industry and advise on any other action.

The music industry task team presented 37 recommendations, which can be grouped, as follows: developing and/or implementing an effective and enabling legislative framework; human resource development, education and training in the music industry; economic growth of the music industry; promotion and development of the music industry.

Some of the recommendations of the music industry task team relate directly to the line function of the Department of Arts and Culture, while many aspects relate to the functions of other government departments, the private sector, trade unions and civil society. Copyright matters relate to the function of the Department of Trade and Industry.

My understanding is that the DTI has subsequently amended certain legislation in our copyright regime, as follows: The Copyright Amendment Act of 2002 and the Performers’ Protection Amendment Act of 2002. The former law broadens the definition of the performer to protect unscripted performances that make use of folk songs and oral tradition, while the latter secures the right of the musician to be paid when their music is broadcast or performed live.

Further to that, my department, together with the Legal Aid Board, is in the process of establishing a legal aid facility to assist musicians and artist in general with legal support on matters pertaining to copyright infringements and to advise them on contractual issues. Thank you.

Nkskz N D MBOMBO: Sekela-Somlomo, mnye umbuzo wam kuJolinkomo [uMphathiswa wezeNkcubeko noBugcisa]. Ndiyayibulela nenkcazo oyinikileyo, Mphathiswa, iyandonelisa. Kodwa ke ndisenombuzwana nje.

Abanye baba bantu babhubha, beshiya amaculo abo eculwa ngabanye abantu, abangahlobenanga nabo, nabaxhamlayo ngawo. Ngaba iintsapho zabo singazinceda njani na ukuze nazo kubekho uchatha eziwufumanayo ngamaculo ooyisemkhulu okanye ooyise? Singazazisa njani ezi ntsapho ukuba zinalo ilungelo lokuba nazo zixhamle ngamaculo aqanjwa ngoomama okanye ngootata bazo? Ndiyabulela. (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)

[Ms N D MBOMBO: Deputy Speaker, I have one question for Jolinkomo, the hon Minister of Arts and Culture, if I may, please. I would like to thank you, hon Minister, for the answer you have supplied. I am satisfied. The following is my question.

Some of the writers of these songs have since died and other people who are not even blood-related to them sing the songs and receive benefit from them. I am wondering whether there is a way by which they could receive benefits from the songs that their grandfathers wrote. How can we make the families of the people who wrote those songs aware of their rights so that they can make claims for the songs and hymns that were written by their mothers or fathers? Thank you.]

UMPHATHISWA WEZENKCUBEKO NOBUGCISA: Sekela-Somlomo, ndiyabulela kudad’ ethu. Ukuba umntu unosapho, kwaye engabhalanga myolelo othi iimali zam endizizuza ngamaculo am maziye kusapho lwam, kungenzeka ukuba olo sapho lulahlekelwe.

Kodwa ke noba kunjalo, ngoku sizama ukuba sibe neqela lamagqwetha aza kumela nokucebisa abantu ababhala amacula kunye nabo benza umculo. Loo magqwetha aza kuzama ukucebisa iintsapho zaba bantu malunga namalungelo abo. Ndikuphendule? Kuyavakala? [Kwahlekwa.]

USEKELA-SOMLOMO: Kuyavakala, Mphathiswa. (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to thank my sister for her question. If one has a family and one does not state in one’s will that the proceeds one receives from the music should go to one’s family, the family may lose those benefits.

Notwithstanding that, we are trying to ensure that there is a team of lawyers whose function would be to represent the interests of musicians as well as to advise them. That legal team would also advise their families with regard to their rights. Have I answered you? Can you feel it? [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: It is very clear, hon Minister.]

Mev D VAN DER WALT: Adjunkspeaker, ek wil graag vir die Minister vra: Die DA steun die regering in die beskerming en bewaring van die volkskunde van al ons kultuurgroepe in ons land, maar wat ons egter van die Minister wil weet, is of die regering, en veral hy in sy posisie as beskermheer van kultuursake, waarborg dat die Afrikaanse volksoorleweringe – wat een van ons inheemse kultuurgroepe is – gelykwaardig saam met die ander kultuurgroepe beskerm en bewaar sal word, en dat dit nie net lippetaal sal wees nie?

Die MINISTER VAN KUNS EN KULTUUR: Aangesien die Grondwet sê ons is almal gelyk, dink ek daardie vraag word deur die Grondwet beantwoord. Baie dankie. [Gelag.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mrs D VAN DER WALT: Deputy Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister the following: The DA supports the government in the protection and conservation of the ethnology of all of our cultural groups in our country, but what we want to know from the Minister is whether the government, and especially he in his position as custodian of cultural matters, guarantees that the Afrikaans folklore – which is that of one of our indigenous cultural groups – will receive equal protection and conservation along with the other cultural groups and that mere lip service will not be paid to this.

The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Seeing that the Constitution states that we are all equal, I think that question is answered by the Constitution. Thank you very much. [Laughter.]]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, Minister. Would you like a second bite? You may even go for a third, because, seemingly, you are the only one who is ’n bietjie wakker [a little awake] in the House this afternoon.

Mrs D VAN DER WALT: Adjunkspeaker, ek het geweet dit is wat die Minister gaan antwoord, maar ek het vir hom gesê dit moet nie net lippetaal wees nie. Ek wil weet hoe hy dit in werking gaan stel, want dikwels staan die ANC-regering op en sê daar is niks fout nie, ons diskrimineer nie teen julle nie. Maar, wat ons ervaar is die teenoorgestelde.

Die MINISTER VAN KUNS EN KULTUUR: As die agb lid vir my een instansie kan gee waar daar diskriminering is teen die Afrikanervolk, kan ek miskien antwoord.

Die vorige keer wat ek met die agb lid gepraat het oor Afrikaans, het ek haar ’n boekie gegee - ’n bloemlesing van poësie - wat deur ’n lid van die ANC in Afrikaans geskryf is. Dit is hoe ons Afrikaans aanvul, het ek aan haar daardie keer vertel. En dít is nogsteeds my standpunt.

Ons wil in Afrikaans skryf en boeke in Afrikaans vertaal om te verseker dat mense wat Afrikaanssprekend is ook deelneem aan die nuwe Suid-Afrika. Dis hoe ons Afrikaans aanvul. Baie dankie. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mrs D VAN DER WALT: Deputy Speaker, I knew that was what the Minister was going to say, but I told him that it should not be mere lip service. I want to know how he is going to put this into operation, because the ANC government often stands up and says there is nothing wrong, we are not discriminating against you. But we are experiencing the contrary.

The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: If the member is able to give me one instance of discrimination against the Afrikaner people, I may be able to answer.

On the previous occasion when I spoke to the hon member regarding Afrikaans, I gave her a booklet - an anthology of poetry - that was written in Afrikaans by a member of the ANC. That is how we are supplementing to Afrikaans, I told her at the time. And that remains my position.

We want to write in Afrikaans and translate our books into Afrikaans to ensure that people who are Afrikaans-speaking also take part in the new South Africa. That is how we are supplementing Afrikaans. Thank you very much. [Applause.]]

    Attracting skilled and experienced teachers back to teaching

1. Mr G G Boinamo (DA) asked the Minister of Education:

   (1) Whether any process has been put in place to encourage teachers who took retrenchment packages in the 1990s to return to teaching; if not, (a) why not and (b) what is being done to attract skilled and experienced teachers back to teaching; if so, what (i) process has been put in place for this purpose and (ii) success has been achieved;

   (2) whether there are any legal or administrative problems related to rehiring teachers who have been retrenched in the past; if so, what are the relevant details? N1852E

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Deputy Speaker, you didn’t announce the hon Dudley’s crossing of the floor. [Laughter.] I am not sure if you missed her.

The response to Question 97 is as follows, with respect to both part one and two . . .

Ke araba potso ya gago ntate, ke kopa gore o ntheetse. [I am answering your question, sir, could you please listen.] At no stage was any teacher retrenched, but some teachers elected to take a voluntary severance package in 1996. This voluntary severance package was made available as a measure to effect equity within the education system. One of the conditions of the package was that educators were prohibited from reappointment in a permanent capacity in the public education system. However, there was no prohibition on voluntary severance-package teachers being appointed to schools in a temporary capacity.

We have looked at this matter and I believe that the prohibition on permanent appointment no longer serves the purpose for which it was intended. I believe, therefore, that we should reconsider this prohibition, particularly in regard to teachers with scarce skills.

The department is also in the process of investigating the introduction of incentives to attract and retain teachers with scarce skills. Part of the strategy that is being developed will be aimed at recruiting student teachers and creating more favourable career pathing. Thank you.

Mr G G BOINAMO: Madam Deputy Speaker, arising out of the Minister’s reply, are educators who took severance packages included in the register of unemployed educators compiled by her department? And how many qualified maths and science educators are included in this register? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Deputy Speaker, the scarce-skills list that we have been drawing up does not include teachers who have taken this voluntary severance package. Regarding the number of qualified mathematicians, we have a figure of around 1 390 on our list at the moment. Those are teachers who are not employed, but have degrees which would allow them to teach the subject.

Ms S RAJBALLY: Deputy Speaker, I think that our hon Minister has already answered some of my questions. I was going to ask a question on retrenchment. Nevertheless, hon Minister, I am going to ask this question: Will the voluntary severance package effect in any way the earnings and other incentives, should these teachers come back? I thank you.

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Deputy Speaker, I think that what we have to do is first develop the policy and then look at what the detail of the policy will be. As you know, if you have accepted a voluntary severance package, it is very difficult to take you back into the Public Service with the same kinds of benefits, but you shouldn’t be disadvantaged in terms of our Constitution and so on.

Therefore it is a matter that we really need to reflect on in quite a serious fashion and we need to be far more careful and analytical in terms of our utilisation of such a strategy if we develop it as a new approach.

Mr S D MONTSITSI: Deputy Speaker, it is common cause, Mr Minister … Madam Minister, that the transformation of education has seen a number of teachers wishing to leave the system without necessarily being compelled to do so. At the same time there was the introduction of a new educational system, the outcomes-based education system. In that regard, obviously, some of the teachers who had been in the system for a very long time and who came from the past curriculum would have wished to leave.

In light of the new crop of teachers who have been produced through the new system of OBE, is it possible, Madam Minister, that the department can actually renege on its responsibility to take on the new teachers, most particularly those who have qualified in subjects such as science, mathematics and economics, which we know are the type of subjects that we need? I thank you.

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Hon member, the statement that the department has a responsibility to take on teachers is not actually confirmed by our current law, because the departments do not play a particular role in deciding what category of teachers you take on in terms of the current framework. So it is difficult to respond to the question as you set it out.

You are correct that the policy that was adopted in 1996-97 intended to correct a historical inequality, but I think what we are saying is that sometimes a policy could have unintended consequences. And the responsibility I have, as Madam Minister and not Mr Minister, although I have a new haircut, is to ensure that we provide educators who can respond to the imperatives of education that we wish to promote.

I think that part of our challenge is that we have not really attracted young people to take on an education degree in the critical skills areas. The technical, technology and management subjects we have introduced in schools are a problem area and we really need to ensure that we have adequately trained people who can handle these subjects. But I believe that there is a great deal of opportunity in education, and we are improving the conditions of service so that, increasingly, this career will become one of choice and attractive to young people.

 Request to provide residents of Bushbuckridge North with water from
                            Klaserie Dam

1. Mr M W Sibuyana (IFP) asked the Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry:

   Whether a request to provide the residents of Bushbuckridge North with water from the Klaserie Dam is being considered; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? N1873E

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Deputy Speaker, the reply to the question that the hon member asked is as follows. While considering the use of the Klaserie Dam would be a good idea for water supply to the area mentioned, the Inyaka Dam is, in fact, a better option as a source, according to our research.

The answer to the question is, no, the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry is not considering supplying the residents of Bushbuckridge, North Acorn Hoek area, with water from the Klaserie Dam. The construction of a water pipeline to transfer water from Inyaka Dam to Acorn Hoek, which will provide for their water needs, commenced during the 2004-05 financial year and is 50% complete.

It is expected that the pipeline will begin delivering water to the area during 2006. The total cost will be in excess of R30 million. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.

Mr M W SIBUYANA: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Hon Minister, are you in a position to tell the residents of Acorn Hoek or Bushbuckridge North when they will be able to access water from Inyaka Dam, seeing that even now Inyaka Dam is failing to provide enough water for the people of Dwarsloop? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: As already indicated in my initial response, hon member, we are delivering in 2006. I can get the details on the exact month and date, and then I can supply the hon member, who is not listening, but is busy chatting with a lady next to him. I don’t know what’s happening. Maybe the hon member wants to marry this lady. [Laughter.]

Thank you, I caught your attention because I spoke about marriage. I am saying that I can supply you with the details of the day in which we are going to deliver on this.

Mr G G BOINAMO: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Hon Minister, clearly, there is an acute shortage of educators in this country. The fact that there are 500 schools in Limpopo . . .

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: We are dealing with water affairs. [Laughter.]

Mr D K MALULEKE: Deputy Speaker, during our oversight visit to Nelspruit, Mpumalanga, we were informed that the Working for Water programme, which is focusing mainly on removing evasive alien species, has employed 3 000 people, 60% of whom are women, 5% of whom are disabled persons and 35% are youth. It has been regarded as a success, because it managed to get rid of alien species and nonperennial streams.

However, the programme is faced with the following challenges. Contractors want to remain in the system even when they have completed their training. There have been allegations of corruption, nepotism and fronting. The exit policy has been ignored. Would the Minister give assurance to this House that she is going to look into the matter and do something about it?

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Thank you very much, hon member, for the question, although I would really appreciate it if you could table it as a new question. There are serious problems with the programme that need my attention. We are busy trying to restructure the Working for Water programme, so that broad-based Black Economic Empowerment also benefits from that particular programme.

There is a lot that needs to be done. What I was busy with was saving the Working for Water programme from being transferred from the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry to the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism. Now that that project is behind me, I will be able to focus on the actual functioning of the Working for Water programme. I would really appreciate it if you could table this as a new question. Thank you. Mr P H K DITSHETELO: Madam Speaker, in fact, I was going to follow on the hon member who spoke about the Klaseri Dam. I just wanted to thank the Minister for her reply, which was short and to the point. I hope that the opposition is now aware that the ANC-led government is serving all the people of Bushbuckridge and not just those in small villages. They should know that.

Ntate ya neng a botsa potso eo o hodile, mme o a tseba ka mokgwa oo re neng re sokola ka teng matamo e le a bona, ba na le diirrigation schemes, mme batho ba sa fumane metsi. [The gentleman who asked that question is old enough to know how we struggled. The dams were theirs, they had irrigation schemes and people did not get water.]

In fact, Madam Minister, I have just learnt, with pride, that Inyaka Dam has the capacity to feed the people around there. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Madam Deputy Speaker, I can just, maybe, give an indication of the number of people who will benefit from the Inyaka Dam scheme. There are 573 000 people who will benefit from the project, hon member. Thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Indeed, people are not in the mood for asking questions this afternoon. We now pass that, with that slot that was not taken. The level of noise is so high that I thought someone was addressing me. The question from D M Morobi is as follows:

                Rolling out of transformation charter

1. Mof D M Morobi (ANC) o tla botsa Letona la tsa Dipapadi le Boithabiso:

   Na ebe lefapha la hae le ikemiseditse ho atolosetsa tokomane ya phetoho ho fihlela mekgahlelong e fapaneng ya mmuso le setjhabeng; ha ho se jwalo, lebaka ke lefe; ha ho le jwalo, seo se tla etsahala neng? N1747S (Translation of Sesotho question follows.)

[88. Mrs D M Morobi (ANC) asked the Minister of Sport and Recreation:

  Whether his department intends rolling out the transformation charter
  to the various levels of government and the communities; if not, why
  not; if so, when?                       N1747E]

O tla botsa Letona la tsa Dipapadi le Boithabiso. Letona re kopa o re arabe. [We will ask the Minister of Sport and Recreation. Minister, please give us the reply.]

The question is put in Sesotho, so I have to put it that way too. Thank you for your understanding of Sesotho, Minister Stofile. The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: We try, Madam Deputy Speaker, but fortunately it was translated into English.

The answer to the question is, yes, we will be continuing our endeavours to consult everybody and take everybody on board in the development of this transformation charter. It will not only reside with the spheres of government, it will also involve the sectors of society - not only the federations, but indeed every sector of society.

At the end of that process it will go back to all the constituencies that gave inputs to the development of the charter in the first place. However, we want to report that the process is still far from being completed. The charter was discussed at the Technical Intergovernmental Committee, the TIC, meeting which took place on 1 and 2 September 2005, where it was agreed that a special TIC meeting will be held on 26 September, next week, where the charter will be unpacked further for the understanding of everybody.

The provinces will then hold provincial indabas with their provincial and local constituencies to discuss the draft charter. They will give feedback on the outcomes of the provincial indaba. The charter will then be taken back to the Minmec and the Minister will be able to approve it or disapprove of it. But as I say, the process is still far from completion.

Mof D M MOROBI: Ke a leboha, Motlatsi wa Sepikara. Ke a leboha, Mohlomphehi Letona, ka karabo e batsi. Ho totobetse hore ka nnete tokomane ena e sa le hole le ho qetwa, hobane ha re ntse re nkile maeto a dikomiti ho ya mabatoweng, re hlokometse hore ha ho na batho ba tsebang letho ka tokomane ena. Jwale ke ne ke kopa letona hore mohlomong le ka hlalosetsa Ntlo ena hore ebe mohla tokomane ena e seng e ya tshebetsong, ebe ho tla ba le malebaleba a ho tiisa hore tokomane ena ya phetoho e tla kenngwa tshebetsong. Na ho tla ba le tiiso ya hore matla (capacity) a tla ba teng mabatoweng hore e finyelle setjhabeng? Ke a leboha. (Translation of Sotho paragraph follows.)

[Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker. Thank you, hon Minister, for your broad answer. It is clear that this document is indeed far from finalised, because when we, as committees pay visits to regions, we realise that nobody knows about this document. Now, I would like to ask the hon Minister to explain to this House whether, when it is time for the implementation of this document, there will be strategies to ensure that this document will be implemented. Will there be confirmation that regions will have the capacity to make it accessible to the community? Thank you.]

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Deputy Speaker, I want to first make a confession. I am not a big fan of documents such as this one, because they are not justifiable. You can have as many charters as you like and you file them in as many shelves as you like, there is no compelling mechanism to have them implemented. For that reason, I really don’t have a great appetite for these kinds of documents.

The consultative process wants a charter for transformation, and if the people want it, the people must have it. When will it be completed? As soon as we get the feedback from all these consultative fora that we are sending the documents to.

I agree with the comrade that many people would not know about it, because there is a serious syndrome in our communities, that is, the syndrome of not attending meetings. It does not have to do with the charter, it has to do with the IDPs, it has to do with ward meetings and it has to do with every meeting. People simply do not attend meetings. They will attend the meeting if it is convened by a person with a famous name. There will be a number of people who would not have attended those meetings and indeed, who would not be aware of the existence of this discussion. We urge them to do come to those meetings. We also urge the members of this House to talk to their constituencies during the constituency weeks and urge them to make contributions to this charter, because it must belong to all of us.

Mr T D LEE: Deputy Speaker, Mr Minister, transformation does not mean fighting your brother’s cause to become the president of SARU. That is called nepotism. Children do not play sports with charters. They need bats and balls, they need training, they need coaching, and they need playing fields to play on, Mr Minister.

My question to you, Mr Minister, is when are you going to supply such tools to our children? I thank you.

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Thank you very much, Mr Lee. I was looking forward to you raising the question of nepotism. First of all, my brother - whether he wants to be president of SARU or not, that is his business. Secondly, the dictionary meaning of “nepotism” - may I ask you to go and look at it – is “to take a favourable position towards your relative in appointing them”.

I don’t appoint presidents of any federation in this country. So, the reference to nepotism is completely inappropriate. It is misuse of the English language, or shall I say of the Latin language, by people who do not understand what the term means. They are just trying to take a cheap shot at me. I am above that, believe me, I am above that.

My brother was elected in a general council meeting of the SA Rugby Football Union in 2003, and I was not a delegate at that meeting. Yes, Brian van Rooyen was also elected as president of that rugby union and he, in his capacity as the president of that union, appointed the Heunis Commission to investigate allegations against him. His appointed investigators have confirmed all these allegations.

Now that has nothing to do with nepotism, it has to do with corruption, Mr Lee. I put it to you, because you raised it in the past, that we were chasing Mr Van Rooyen because he was coloured. Now I put it to the DA: Are you protecting coloured persons when they are corrupt, irrespective of the corruption? If you do not, then you must support the Heunis findings and say to Mr Van Rooyen: “The honourable thing to do is for you to recuse yourself and allow the investigation to be completed. That is what we stand for, irrespective of which party, or what colour, or whatever your . . . [Inaudible.] . . . relationships.” Thank you.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Chairperson, the hon Minister has managed to create a lot of sound, light and anger about the matter and that enabled him to evade the proper issue, which is: Children need bats, they need balls, they need coaching and they need rugby fields and cricket fields.

The Minister spends all his time with charters, ideologies and politics of these sports, instead of focusing on giving our children, right across the spectrum, the opportunity of becoming good at these sports. When is he going to focus his attention on the real thing and stop playing politics with sport?

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Madam Chairperson, I don’t know what’s wrong with the members of the DA these days - they were not always like this. [Interjections.] We have been distributing equipment to our children since Adam.

Last Saturday . . .

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: [Inaudible.]

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: No! South Africa is not just your area. South Africa is much bigger than that. [Applause.] We will not be dragooned into favouring particular members. We will take our decisions on the basis of the backlogs and on the basis of the needs of the people, as identified by themselves and by us. We have been distributing all those things.

As a matter of fact, we are distributing a whole lot of equipment next week to a number of codes and communities. You must come and be part of this and stop misquoting Shakespeare in this House [Laughter.]

Mr H P CHAUKE: Chairperson, I have a follow-up question. Minister, do you have any information on whether the hon Gibson and the hon Lee ever played any kind of sport? Do you have any information regarding that? [Interjections.]

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: I have no idea. As you will remember, if Mr Gibson played sport, he would have played it in white suburbs where I was not allowed to go and watch him . . . [Laughter.] . . . and he enjoyed it. [Applause.] I also do not have any idea if either Mr Gibson or Mr Lee has ever gone to his constituency and assisted them in applying for the municipal infrastructure grant to provide all the things they are talking about.

HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Minister, that was neither a follow- up question, nor a follow-up answer. Thank you very much.

   Recruitment of mentors for inexperienced senior municipal staff

1. Mr M M Swathe (DA) asked the Minister for Provincial and Local Government:

   (1) Whether the Government will undertake to first recruit mentors for inexperienced senior municipal staff from amongst South African citizens who have the relevant local government experience prior to seeking mentors from abroad; if not, (a) why not and (b) what factors were taken into consideration in deciding that international experience is more useful than local experience; if so, what are the relevant details; (2) whether any mentors recruited from overseas will have to be black; if not, what criteria will be used in recruiting international mentors; if so, why? N1848E

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, I’d like to bring to your attention the fact that this question has now been asked for the third time in this House. It has been posed to the President, the Deputy President and now to the Minister for Provincial and Local Government. Nevertheless, I will answer it.

The answer to the first part of the question is yes, government will first seek suitably qualified persons locally before recruiting skilled people from outside the country.

The answer to the second part of the question is “no”. Skills, relevant knowledge and experience will be some of the criteria that will be used when recruiting mentors. Thank you.

Mr M M SWATHE: Thank you very much, Deputy Chairperson. Deputy Minister, the need to recruit mentors from India is a clear admission that many municipal managers cannot perform their duties, despite earning exorbitant salaries and receiving performance bonuses. How much will it cost the South African taxpayer to recruit, train and pay these mentors from overseas? Thank you very much. [Interjections.] The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, this is a new question. He can put it again, to be included in the Question Paper. This is a completely new question. [Interjections.]

Mr B M SOLO: Chairperson, I would like to thank the Deputy Minister for the response she gave and the comment she made. The ANC has at all times expressed its commitment to fighting racism and any form of discrimination based on colour or race. We have a history of racism in this country, which we all know about, and which needs to be corrected. We note that some people are a factory fault. Anyway, we ask questions because we have been told to ask them. It is true, sometimes, that . . .

. . . baneendlebe nje, kodwa abeva, baqinile. [ . . .they have ears but they are deaf. They are stubborn.]

. . . and we shall continue responding to these questions. Deputy Minister, to demonstrate that charity begins at home, could you assure this House that your department is going to engage with all relevant organisations, such as the Afrikaanse Handelsinstituut and others, to assist in identifying people with skills who can either do mentoring or fill some of the vacant posts? I thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Hon member, I would like to reassure you and emphasise what the President has also said, that government is willing to engage all institutions and all stakeholders that actually interact with DPLG. There is the legacy of the past that we need to address. We can’t simply move on as if nothing happened in the past. We have to address the past imbalances. In terms of the state, I think some people are fighting for the status quo to continue. In terms of factory faults, hon member, I agree with you that there are some issues that we would refer to as factory faults. I’d like to reassure hon members that at local government level we have started with the process of engaging many other individuals from the private sector in order for them to assist with capacity-building. Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr W P DOMAN: Thank you, Chair. Deputy Minister, we agree with the hon Solo that we must fully take our past into consideration and, of course, there are new municipal managers that are performing very well. It is just a pity that he had to be so patronising regarding the question that was put. I want to ask you what role Seta will play in mentoring? Isn’t it their task to deal with this mentoring in local government?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, I have already alluded to the fact that we have invited all stakeholders. In government, we will work as a collective and not as individual departments. As government, we will utilise all those who are, in fact, affected by capacity-building.

I also think that to say that when we refer to our past, we should refer to it in isolation is a bit aggressive. I think this is very negative and aggressive. Thank you, Chairperson. [Interjections.]

Mr A C STEYN: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Deputy Minister, will you give us an indication of whether the remuneration and performance packages of the officials who will receive mentors will be reviewed, in light of the fact that they will have a mentor to do their jobs for them?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Madam Chair, I think that government will be tabling a Bill very soon that will review the remuneration of the affected municipal managers. What we want to share with members is the fact that municipalities have the right to pay their municipal managers what they can afford. Government at national and provincial levels cannot interfere in that. What we are saying is that we do have a Bill that will look at the remuneration of such municipal managers, which will be tabled in Parliament. Thank you.

  Task team investigating the possible reduction of public holidays

1. Mr I S Mfundisi (UCDP) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

   (1) Whether the task team set up to investigate the possibility of reducing public holidays has completed its assignment; if not, what is the cause of the delay; if so, when will the report be made available to the public;

   (2) whether she will make a statement on the matter? N1840E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chair, the answer to the question is, yes, the task team has completed its assignment. The Minister expects to receive the report shortly and she will make a statement upon receipt of the report. Thank you.

Mr I S MFUNDISI: Thank you, Chairperson. Whilst we appreciate that the report has been received, perhaps you could nevertheless answer this question … Captains of industry, economists and the government, through the Public Service Commission, have indicated that people go on holiday and then take leave either a day before or after a public holiday. Has the government, or will the Ministry, consider trying to pin some holidays to a Friday to make it easier for people, so that productivity will not be affected that negatively? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you, hon member. Just a correction: I did not say that the report had been received. I said the task team had completed its work. The Minister awaits the report and upon receipt of the report – soon – the Minister will make a statement. Now, regarding the problems that confront the captains of industry and so on, I am unable to pre-empt what will arise from the report. Once we receive the report, we will study it and make the necessary determination following proper procedures. But for now, if captains of industry have a problem with their workers leaving a day earlier, that honestly cannot be the problem of government.

Mrs S V KALYAN: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, the problem is that most public holidays fall close to a weekend. This tends to lead to many people taking an extra-long weekend as you’ve heard the hon member from the UCDP say. Has the task team given any consideration to providing for public holidays perhaps to always fall on a Friday or a Monday to limit the disruption to the economy? A comment from you on this would be useful, although, as you say, you haven’t studied the report.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Madam Chairperson, with your permission I would like to reread the answer that I read earlier. The task team has completed its assignment. The Minister expects to receive the report shortly and then she will make a statement.

Now, the public holidays change every year. The 16th may be on Friday this year and next year on Monday, or on any other day. The problems that people confront with regards to their employees cannot be solved by legislation, by decree, by policy, or by anything. We cannot create new holidays to accommodate the fact that people, if a holiday falls on a Thursday, want to leave on Wednesday and not be back at work on Friday. We honestly can’t. I would like to request hon members to reconsider the follow-up questions they had prepared before we gave the answer, because the answer I’ve given

• that the report has not yet been received - must surely impact upon the questions that people have prepared. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Thank you. Order! The hon Swart is next. Please take note of what was said by the Deputy Minister.

Mr S N SWART: Thank you, Chair. Hon Deputy Minister, I take to heart what you’ve just said and therefore I ask this question in a lighter vein. I appreciate that you have not read the task team’s report, but can you and the Minister give us the assurance that you will not become a grinch and steal Christmas? Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Thank you. You needn’t respond. Thank you very much. Christmas is safe.

Mr H P CHAUKE: Deputy Minister, I just want to find out if you know why this commission was set up, because this was done during the previous Parliament? Has the former Minister told you why this task team was set up?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you, hon member. As soon as the task team’s report is received, we will consider all of that. We in the department are in the process of studying the rest of the legislation and policies that fall within the department to determine whether any of them need to be reviewed. I think that when we have done that in a comprehensive manner, we will be able to interrogate all of them regarding their relevance, the reason why they have to be the way they are, and then we will make the necessary determinations. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Thank you very much, hon Deputy Minister. You can see that that was an issue of great seriousness for the House.

          Developmental thrust of food emergency programme

1. Mrs T J Tshivhase (ANC) asked the Minister of Social Development:

   Whether the developmental thrust of the food emergency programme is being realised, with specific reference to linking beneficiaries with agricultural starter packs that will enable them to produce their own food; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details? N1927E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, the answer to the question is as follows. The food emergency relief programme is a subprogramme of the integrated food security and nutrition programme, of which the Department of Agriculture remains the overall convener.

The developmental thrust of the national food emergency scheme was centred on two objectives, namely the provision of agricultural equipment and starter packs for household food gardens – this is an income-generation initiative – and, secondly, the linkage to community production centres for sustainability and the ultimate independence of beneficiaries.

The provision of agricultural equipment and starter packs to households in terms of the national food emergency scheme programme is the role and responsibility of the Department of Agriculture. However, the Department of Agriculture could not come on board, citing as their reason that there was no budget for this activity.

With regard to the second objective of linking households to community production centres, the department has established and supports 22 drop-in centres in all nine provinces. Drop-in centres are physical structures where a comprehensive range of services is rendered with the specific focus on meeting the needs of children, orphans, women, the frail and the terminally ill.

This, in effect, is done through the provision of emotional support to the beneficiaries by social workers. In addition, the beneficiaries are also referred to the necessary departments for possible application for social- security grants and for other assistance and support.

The short-term support rendered includes the provision of immediate food relief in the form of food parcels, school-feeding schemes and soup kitchens. Long-term plans for sustainability of the drop-in centres include creating an enabling environment for sustainable income-generation projects, skills transfer for entrepreneurship development among beneficiaries and the implementation of food gardens. Thank you, Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Tshivhase? Hon Nzimande, I first have to give an opportunity to the person who put the question. I have your name on my list. I am looking for the hon Tshivhase.

Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Hon Chairperson, she’s not in the House. I’m asking a follow-up question on her behalf.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Thank you very much. Please continue.

Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Thank you, hon Chairperson, and thank you for your response, Deputy Minister. We committed ourselves to a developmental state to be able to take our people on board in the fight against poverty and to make sure that they themselves took of the cause of alleviating the circumstances of poverty and also of promoting self-reliance.

I would like to know, in terms of the work of the department and, of course, having seen the work through the drop-in centres, whether people are taking up the call. We have been consistently making the call through campaigns like Vukuzenzele and many others, encouraging our people to stand up and participate in all the social developmental programmes that government offers.

I’d like to know if the call is indeed being heeded by our people and if they are being encouraged by state officials to make sure that they participate.

THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Hon Nzimande, via the Chair, in the various provinces I have seen projects in terms of which vulnerable youths are taught skills to make furniture – this is taken right up to the point of export. In other cases, there are women doing crafts and selling those crafts. There is even a project where disabled people are making coffins.

Some of these projects have become the best-practice models for countries in Africa – like Angola, for example, which we recently visited. This is because we have developed a best-practice model for dealing with the disabled and making them self-sufficient – being able to provide for themselves through business and entrepreneurship.

So, I think, yes, our people are taking it up and, of course, the more partnerships there are with NGOs and business, the more sustainable these projects can become.

Ms H WEBER: Madam Chair, could the hon Deputy Minister give us the assurance that emergency food will be given to the poorest of the poor in an organised manner and not be used as a political ploy to get votes? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chair, I don’t believe that question actually warrants an answer. The answer is obvious – that we try our best. The disorder that has been created is not with regard to political tools. The disorder that was created with regard to food parcels was around the conflict that they caused within communities. This conflict could never really be satisfied by the handing out of food parcels, because you can never reach each and every hungry person.

That is why our department is much more in favour of creating sustainable projects; not encouraging a dependency syndrome, but rather teaching people or giving people access to the knowledge to be able to sustain themselves. Thank you.

Ms S RAJBALLY: Thank you, Chair. Hon Deputy Minister, starter packs are very good. They encourage our communities to fend for themselves. In fact, I agree with the hon Nzimande when he says that they tie up with Vukuzenzele – to get up and do it yourself.

I just want to know, Deputy Minister, whether a follow-up takes place to see if further assistance is required by the people who implement this project, when these starter packs are given out to the various communities. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chair, the way in which we implement these projects is in an integrated way, working with other tiers of government within the province and also at local government level. Follow-ups do take place at the provincial and local government levels to ensure that people succeed with food gardens. Social workers also visit people. So, yes, definitely. Thank you.

Sale by Deeds Office of title deeds containing confidential information

1. Ms I Mars (IFP) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

   (1) Whether her department has been informed that the Deeds Office sells copies of title deeds which include the identity numbers of the buyer and seller; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (2) whether her department supports this practice; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (3) whether her department keeps track of who buys this confidential information; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (4) whether the fact that such confidential information is so easily available increases the risk of identity theft; if not, what is the position is this regard; if so, what is being done to ensure that this information is not used for illegal purposes? 1874E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Deputy Chairperson, no, title deeds are public records and copies are made available to members of the public upon payment of a fee.

The answer to the second part of the question is, “yes”. This practice is necessary to ensure the validity and reliability of information regarding persons or parties to transactions involving title deeds.

The reply to the third part of the question is as follows. Currently the department doesn’t keep track of such information, but we are investigating the possible implications of such a practice on the integrity and security of identification. Upon completion of such an investigation we will engage the relevant department and make a statement in this regard.

The answer to the fourth part of the question is: As you are all aware, identity documents are normally made available by their holders upon request by various institutions and organisations, both in the public and the private sectors. Once the department has fulfilled the primary responsibility to protect the processing and distribution of IDs, the overall responsibility to ensure that they are not used for illegal purposes lies with the law-enforcement agencies, working together with members of the public or any other person with such information. Thank you.

Mrs I MARS: Chairperson, let me thank the Deputy Minister. I just want to emphasise some of the questions we actually raised. Today I noticed a newspaper headline reading: “SA fake IDs out of control”. However, the fact is that they appear to be our genuine IDs, which are used with criminal intent. Now we have the Deeds Office supplying personal ID data by direct computer link to consumer-based companies at a price.

Whilst we support partnerships between the government and private enterprise, we believe that this particular issue is going a little too far in view of chapter two of our Constitution, which protects the privacy of communication. Will the Minister give this matter further consideration? I thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chair, hon member, thank you very much. We surely will and are doing exactly that. I would like to reassure this House that the South African identity document is not in a crisis. Sure, we do have a problem with regard to attempts to forge our documents, but it happens in other countries too. There are many people all over the world who are trying to forge identity documents for whatever purpose and South Africa is not unique in this regard.

But the South African identity document is in no crisis and in no danger at all. Indeed we, as a department, are involved in means to further protect or tighten the security of the production and distribution of our identity documents in order to ensure that no person is able to access our identity documents fraudulently and illegally.

We have even taken legal steps, as a department, to investigate and punish people, within and outside the department, who are involved in such scams. So we want to reassure all of you that the South African identity document is in no danger and no crisis. Certainly, hon member, we will pay attention to the genuine issues that you are raising. Thank you.

Financial backing for local government in developing sport and recreation facilities

1. Mof D M Morobi (ANC) o tla botsa Letona la tsa Dipapadi le Boithabiso:

   Na Sport and Recreation South Africa e na le maano a ho thusa mebuso ya selehae ka ditshehetso tsa ditjhelete, ka sepheo sa ho ntshetsapele disebediswa le mananeo a dipapadi le boithabiso setjhabeng; ha ho se jwalo, lebaka ke lefe; ha ho le jwalo, dintlha mabapi le maano ao ke dife? N1746S (Translations of Sesotho question follows.)

[87. Mrs D M Morobi (ANC) asked the Minister of Sport and Recreation:

  Whether there are any plans by Sport and Recreation South Africa to
  assist local governments with financial backing in order to develop
  sport and recreation facilities and programmes in the communities; if
  not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?
                                    N1746E]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Minister, you didn’t recognise my efforts at reading Sesotho, but will you respond nevertheless? [Laughter.]

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Madam Chairperson, I thought you were speaking Yiddish or something. [Laughter.] The answer to the question is: Yes; Sport and Recreation SA will continue endeavouring to secure funds for addressing the backlog of sport and recreation facilities in all parts of the country. And I dare say that South Africa is, in many parts, awash with facilities, but they are where the people are not, thanks to the unfortunate planning approaches of yesterday.

The past four years have seen us provide 365 sports facilities through our “Building for Sport and Recreation” project. But since the 2005-06 financial year, funds for those projects have been incorporated into the municipal infrastructure grant, which is in the budget of the Department of Provincial and Local Government.

The focus of Sport and Recreation SA is now to assist local authorities and federations in the advocacy of and lobbying for the inclusion of these facilities in the IDPs of the local communities. In the provisioning we also focus on appropriate assistance in the planning, monitoring and implementation of these plans. We empower local authorities properly to manage sports and recreation facilities where they have already been created or built.

Mof D M MOROBI: Ke a leboha modulasetulo. Letona, ho totobetse hore mmuso o ikemiseditse ho ntlafatsa maphelo a batho ka hare ho naha. Empa letona, ha re ntse re etela mabatowa re eleletswe hore mebuso ya selehae ha e nke lefapha la dipapadi e le la bohlokwa.

Disebediswa di teng, re a di bona ha re ile mono, empa ka lebaka la hobane mebuso ya selehae ha e nke dipapadi e le ntho ya bohlokwa, ke rata ho botsa letona hore na ebe ho ka etswa eng hore mohlomong ho buisanwe le Ntlo ya Matona hore boikarabelo ba ho ntlafatsa le ho eketsa disebediswa tsa dipapadi di be diatleng tsa hao ka ho otloloha? Mohlomong ka mokgwa o jwalo naha ka bophara e tla anela. Ke a leboha. (Translation of Sotho paragraphs follows.)

[Thank you, hon Chairperson. Hon Minister, it is clear that government is prepared to better the lives of people in this country. But hon Minister, when we visited the regions we realised that local governments do not take sport seriously. There are resources; we see them when we are there, but because local governments do not take sport seriously, I would like to ask the hon Minister what could be done to negotiate with the National Assembly so that the responsibility for bringing about improvements and providing more resources for sport could be placed directly in his hands? In that way, the whole country will have enough. Thank you.]

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon member, as you can already see from the statistics given, when our department was in charge of that budget we were able to make strides in the provisioning of facilities in our communities, but there is now a government decision regulating where the money must reside.

Tomorrow, for the first time in the history of this government, in the Minmec for the Department of Provincial and Local Government there will be representation from the Department of Sport and Recreation, led by the Deputy Minister, precisely because we take this matter very seriously.

Not only do local authorities not take sport and recreation seriously, and not only do the officials of the DPLG not take it seriously, but as a result of the pressures of our communities on the fiscus, we are not surprised that people who do not understand the role of sport in society do not readily see it as a priority. For that reason, we are assisting the local authorities, and from tomorrow we will also be assisting DPLG and the provinces, to understand the importance of sport and recreation.

Mr T D LEE: Voorsitter, terwyl ons nou bietjie Sotho praat, kan ons seker bietjie Afrikaans ook praat. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Mnr die Minister, baie van dié geriewe wat aangebring is, is eintlik wit olifante, want dit word geplaas in plekke waar die mense dit nie kan bereik nie. ’n Voorbeeld hiervan is die sportgerief – die duur sportterrein – in Kwanobuhle, wat veronderstel is om naby die mense van Kwanobuhle in Uitenhage te wees. [Tussenwerpsels.] Dit is ver van die mense, hulle kan dit nie gebruik nie.

’n Ander probleem is die feit dat die munisipaliteite nie dié geriewe onderhou nie. Wat gaan die Minister doen sodat dié goed onderhou word? En, derdens, wat gaan die Minister doen sodat dié goed toeganklik is vir die mense, want baie van hulle kan nie bekostig om dit te gebruik nie, dit is baie duur? [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr T D LEE: Chairperson, since we are speaking a little Sotho now, I suppose we can also speak a little Afrikaans. [Interjections.]

Mr Minister, many of the facilities that have been provided are in fact white elephants, because they are located in places where the people cannot reach them. An example of this is the sports facility – the expensive sports grounds – in KwaNobuhle, which is supposed to be close to the people of KwaNobuhle in Uitenhage. [Interjections.] It is far from the people and they cannot use it.

Another problem is the fact that the municipalities are not maintaining these facilities. What is the Minister going to do so that these things can be maintained? And, thirdly, what is the Minister going to do to ensure that these things are accessible to the people, because many of them cannot afford to use them, since they are very expensive? [Interjections.]]

UMPHATHISWA WEZEMIDLALO NOLONWABO: Mhlalingaphambili, ngokucacileyo uMhlekazi lo akeva kakuhle okanye isilungu akasiva kakuhle. Njengokuba besele sitshilo, ingxaki yokuqala yeyokuba imali leya iphaya kwi-Municipal Infrastructure Grant ayisetyenziswa.

Ukuba ubunokujonga kwizabelo zalo nyaka, ubungafumanisa ukuba bambalwa oomasipala abenze izicelo zale mali, mali leyo enokusetyenziselwa ukwakha nokuphatha kakuhle la mabala siwakhileyo. Yonke loo mali ikho phaya kuhlahlo-lwabiwo-mali.

Yiloo nto ke, mntan’ enkosi, sisithi thina siqinisa izihlala kweli cala lokuncedisa abantu bakuthi ukuba bayiqonde indlela yokufikelela phaya emthonjeni. Anga naye, njengommeli wabo, angene kwelo phulo lokuncedisa abantu bakuthi ukuze bangene emthonjeni.

Ndiyayiva ke le yelaa bala lakwaNobuhle, eTinarha. Bafumana kulula ke oophopho ukutsho, xa imeko ibavumela, ukuba masingathethi ngezinto zayizolo. Ngoku usibuyisela umva ngeminyaka elithoba. Asinakuyinceda into eyenza kwiminyaka elithoba edlulileyo. Sibheka phambili ngoku. Makasincedise ke sibheke phambili. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chairperson, clearly the hon member does not hear properly or does not understand English. As we have already said, the first problem is that money in the form of the Municipal Infrastructure Grant is not being utilised.

If you look at allocations for this year, you will find that few municipalities have lodged requests for this money - money that could be utilised for construction and correctly to maintain the grounds we have constructed. All the money is available in the budget. That is why, Prince, we say that we are strengthening our efforts to help our people so that they can understand ways of getting access to the reserves. He should, as their representative, join the drive to help our people so that they can utilise these reserves.

I hear the issue of KwaNobuhle playground in Uitenhage. Some find it easy to say, when conditions are favourable, that we must talk about past events. Now you are taking us back nine years. We cannot help an event that occurred during the past nine years. We are moving forward now. He must help us to move forward. [Applause.]]

Mr B W DHLAMINI: Deputy Chairperson, I was partly covered by the Minister. The Minister for Provincial and Local Government made an undertaking in this House that the money for sports facilities in his department would be ring-fenced particularly for sports facilities, because during the “Building for Sport and Recreation” programme, the department was able to build around 120 sports facilities, but now it’s only four. So my question is: Has it been ring-fenced for sports facilities particularly in terms of the municipal infrastructure grant? Thank you, Chair.

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: We agree with you, hon member. The Minister gave that undertaking here in September last year. We have an assurance from that department that indeed that money will be ring-fenced.

The issue is not the depletion of the fund itself, but the understanding of how to access the fund so that it can be made available for all those activities. Now we are unable to say that the Department of Provincial and Local Government has reneged on their promise to this House, because we have not been able to maximise the utilisation of what is already available, hence our plea to one and all, because we are all community representatives here. Let us acquaint ourselves with how the municipal infrastructure grant is accessed so that, when we do our constituency work, we have people in the field with us who are teaching these communities how to access the MIG. Members of this hon House, because you are much more than we are, you can make a huge contribution in enlightening our communities on how to access this money. The money is sitting there, but it is not being applied for.

Ms S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, firstly I bring greetings to you from the KwaZulu-Natal MEC for sport and recreation. There has been tremendous progress in the KZN area in respect of sport and recreation. I was in the Illovo area with the MEC for sport and recreation and sports equipment was being handed out for netball, football and other sports.

Hon Minister, my question is whether you are going to be working with all the Ministers in the various provinces in respect of building infrastructure in schools and other communities so that we can keep our learners occupied after schools have closed to keep them away from mischief. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Hon member, thank you very much for the greetings from “The Tiger”. Will you please assure him that we will be with him eThekwini next week, when all the provinces of this country will be participating in the South African Games – the supreme sporting event for our children in this part of the country?

Now, in so far as interministerial co-operation in the provision of these facilities is concerned, you will be pleased to note that we are discussing how to plan together not only with the Department of Education but also with the Department of Housing, because planning is where the problem is. If Education decides where to build a school without consulting with us and with the local government in terms of the facilities that must be there, then there will not be any way in which we can meet all these aspirations.

We have also engaged Housing because as we build settlements, we must include sports and recreation facilities in the planning of those settlements. So, this is a very exciting development in that respect.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Thank you very much. The time allocated for questions has expired. Outstanding replies received will be printed in Hansard.

                        MOTION OF CONDOLENCE


            (The late Chief Rabbi Emeritus Cyril Harris)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:

That the House -

(1) expresses its grief at the loss of Chief Rabbi Emeritus Cyril Harris, one of our nation’s most significant and respected spiritual leaders;

(2) notes that –

    (a)      Chief Rabbi Cyril Harris came to our country before the
         end of apartheid and committed himself to guiding not only the
         Jewish community but all South Africans into the democratic
         era;


    (b)      he was a powerful and inspirational figure in building
         bridges between different communities and encouraged Jews and
         other minorities to become involved in building the new South
         Africa;


    (c)      he was a robust defender of Jewish values and also of
         those secular values of freedom, tolerance and compassion
         which he felt were essential to the building of a successful
         democratic society;


    (d)      his considerable learning and his insight were valuable to
         all who knew him and his spiritual teachings were used to
         great effect on many occasions, public and private; and


    (e)      the Bible says of Noah that he was ``a righteous man - in
         his generation'' (Genesis 6:9) and that Chief Rabbi Harris was
         not only righteous in the context of a transitional South
         African society but his moral guidance transcended the period
         of his service and will continue to enlighten South Africans
         as we grapple with new challenges in the future; and

(3) expresses its sincere condolences to Rabbi Harris’s wife, Ann, to his family, and to the wider Jewish community which he led with pride.

Agreed to.

SUSPENSION OF RULE 253(1) FOR PURPOSES OF CONDUCTING SECOND READING DEBATE ON EDUCATION LAWS AMENDMENT BILL

                         (Draft Resolution)

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move the motion, as printed in the name of the Chief Whip, on the Order Paper:

That Rule 253(1), which provides inter alia that the debate on the Second Reading of a Bill may not commence before at least three working days have elapsed since the committee’s report was tabled, be suspended for the purposes of conducting the Second Reading debate on the Education Laws Amendment Bill [B 23B – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 76) on Thursday, 15 September 2005.

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Chair, in the first instance no final printed copy of the Bill, as amended, has been forwarded to members of the committee or to members of Parliament and obviously, then, that means that no proper reading and final reading of this Bill can take place.

Secondly, the DA has placed on the papers certain amendments to this Bill, which if the three-days rule is waived, would probably mean that these amendments will not be properly considered. So, consequently the DA cannot agree to this. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): I hope I’m going to get this right. I have noted the objection of the DA. Shall I put the full question? Are there any further objections to the Bill being read?

Mr S N SWART: Chair, yes, as the ACDP we also tabled a number of amendments. We would also then have difficulty discussing them.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): I will note the objection of the ACDP.

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Chair, I just want to know what will happen. It is all very well putting the question, but what about the amendments that, as the DA, we have proposed? We need to know what procedure will be followed in order to make sure that these amendments are dealt with?

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chair, with respect, a motion has been moved. My understanding of normal meeting procedure is that we then ask if people are opposed or whether they accept, if they’re opposed, then we vote. And now we are opening some debate here that we don’t . . .

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): . . . I am afraid that that is how I understand the procedure to be; that I continue to put the question.

Question put: That the motion be agreed to.

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 216: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya, S E; Baloyi, M R; Bapela, K O; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhamjee, Y S; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, M J; Blose, H M; Bonhomme, T J; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Burgess, C V; Cachalia, I M; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chang, E S; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Davies, R H; Dhlamini, B W; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Direko, I W; Dithebe, S L; Dlali, D M; Doidge`, G Q M; Fihla, N B; Frolick, C T; Fubbs , J L; Gabela, L S; Gaum, A H; Gcwabaza, N E ; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gololo, C L; Goniwe, M T; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M ; Gumede, M M; Hajaig, F; Hendrickse, P A C; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Huang, S; Jacobus, L ; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, C B; Johnson, M; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kasienyane, O R; Kati, Z J; Kekana, C D; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, K K; Khumalo, K M; Khumalo, M S; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Kondlo, N C; Koornhof, G W; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Lekgoro, M K; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N ; Maake, J J; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Mabuyakhulu, D V; Madasa, Z L; Madella, A F; Maduma, L D; Madumise, M M; Magubane, N E ; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Mahlawe, N M; Mahote, S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Malahlela, M J; Maluleka, H P; Manana, M N S; Manuel, T A; Mars, I; Martins, B A D; Maserumule, F T; Mashangoane, P R; Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J; Mashile, B L; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P M; Matlala, M H; Matsemela, M L; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matsomela, M J J ; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Mbombo, N D; Meruti, M V; Mkhize, Z S; Mlangeni, A; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnguni, B A; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, O M; Mohamed, I J; Mohlaloga, M R; Mokoena, A D; Mokoto, N R; Molefe, C T; Moloto, K A; Monareng, O E; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morobi, D M; Morwamoche, K W; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mzondeki, M J G; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt- Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, W; Njikelana, S J ; Njobe, M A A; Nkuna, C; Nogumla, R Z; Nonkonyana, M; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, S B; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N ; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Padayachie, R L; Pandor, G N M; Phadagi, M G; Phala, M J; Phungula, J P; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C P M; Ramphele, T D H; Rasmeni, S M; Saloojee, E; Scheemann, G D; Schippers, J; Schoeman, E A; Sekgobela, P S; Shabangu, S; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J B; Siboza, S ; Sibuyana, M W; Sikakane, M R; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tsenoli, S L; Tshwete, P; Turok, B; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Wyk, Annelizé; Wang, Y; Xingwana, L M ; Xolo, E T; Yengeni, L L; Zikalala, C N Z; Zita, L; Zulu, B Z.

NOES - 41: Boinamo, G G; Coetzee, R; Cupido, H B; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M; Jankielsohn, R; Joubert, L K; Kalyan, S V; King, R J; Kohler-Barnard, D; Lee, T D; Lowe, C M; Maluleke, D K; Masango, S J; Mfundisi, IS; Mnyandu, B J; Morgan, G R; Nel, A H; Nkem-Abonta, E; Ntuli, R S; Pule, B E; Rabie, P J; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Smuts, M; Stephens J J M; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swart, S N; Trent, E W; van der Walt, D; van Dyk, S M; Van Niekerk, A I; Weber, H; Zille, H.

Question agreed to.

Motion accordingly adopted

                  ROAD ACCIDENT FUND AMENDMENT BILL


              (Decision of Question on Second Reading)

Question put: That the Bill be read a second time.

Division demanded.

The House divided: AYES - 208: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya, S E; Baloyi, M R; Bapela, K O; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhamjee, Y S; Bhengu, F; Blose, H M; Bonhomme, T J; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Burgess, C V; Cachalia, I M; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Davies, R H; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Direko, I W; Dithebe, S L; Dlali, D M; Doidge`, G Q M; Fihla, N B; Frolick, C T; Fubbs , J L; Gabela, L S; Gaum, A H; Gcwabaza, N E ; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gololo, C L; Goniwe, M T; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M ; Gumede, M M; Hajaig, F; Hendrickse, P A C; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Huang, S; Jacobus, L ; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, C B; Johnson, M; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kasienyane, O R; Kati, Z J; Kekana, C D; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, K K; Khumalo, K M; Khumalo, M S; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Kondlo, N C; Koornhof, G W; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Lekgoro, M K; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N ; Maake, J J; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Mabuyakhulu, D V; Madasa, Z L; Madella, A F; Maduma , L D; Madumise, M M; Magubane, N E ; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Mahlawe, N M; Mahote, S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Malahlela, M J; Maluleka, H P; Manana, M N S; Manuel, T A; Martins, B A D; Maserumule, F T; Mashangoane, P R; Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J; Mashile, B L; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P M; Matlala, M H; Matsemela, M L; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matsomela, M J J ; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Mbombo, N D; Meruti, M V; Mfundisi, IS; Mkhize, Z S; Mlangeni, A; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnguni, B A; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, O M; Mohamed, I J; Mohlaloga, M R; Mokoena, A D; Mokoto, N R; Molefe, C T; Moloto, K A; Monareng, O E; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morobi, D M; Morwamoche, K W; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mzondeki, M J G; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, W; Njikelana, S J ; Njobe, M A A; Nkuna, C; Nogumla, R Z; Nonkonyana, M; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, S B; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N ; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Padayachie, R L; Pandor, G N M; Phadagi, M G; Phala, M J; Pieterse, R D; Pule, B E ; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C P M; Ramphele, T D H; Rasmeni, S M; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E; Scheemann, G D; Schippers, J; Schoeman, E A; Sekgobela, P S; Shabangu, S; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J B; Siboza, S ; Sikakane, M R; Skhosana, W M; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tsenoli, S L; Tshwete, P; Turok, B; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Wyk, Annelizé; Wang, Y; Xingwana, L M ; Xolo, E T; Yengeni, L L; Zita, L; Zulu, B Z.

NOES - 45: Bhengu, M J; Boinamo, G G; Chang, E S; Cupido, H B; Davidson,
I O; Delport, J T; Dhlamini, B W; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Ellis, M J;
Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M; Jankielsohn, R; Joubert, L K; Kalyan, S V;
King, R J; Kohler-Barnard, D; Lee, T D; Lowe, C M; Maluleke, D K; Mars,
I; Masango, S J; Mnyandu, B J; Morgan, G R; Mpontshane, A M; Nel, A H;
Nkem-Abonta, E; Ntuli, R S; Rabie, P J; Rabinowitz, R; Sayedali-Shah, M
R; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Sibuyana, M W; Skosana, M B; Smuts, M;
Stephens, J J M; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swart, S N; Trent, E W; van Dyk,
S M; Van Niekerk, A I; Weber, H; Zille, H.

Question agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a second time.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON SAFETY AND SECURITY - SAPS STATION MONITORING TOOL

Ms M M SOTYU: Hon Chairperson, hon members of Parliament, hon Deputy Ministers, during his State of the Nation address this year, the President highlighted the importance that oversight plays in achieving the democratic society that we would like to achieve.

The Constitution, in section 42(3), sums up the functions of the National Assembly. In section 55(2)(b), the Constitution states that The National Assembly must provide for mechanisms -

(b) to maintain oversight of, and –

   (i)  exercise of national executive authority, including the
          implementation of legislation and;


   (ii) any organ of state

During a strategic workshop in February 2005, the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security identified the need to develop a station-monitoring tool to enhance our own oversight responsibilities.

During my speech in the Budget debate, I announced that intention to develop such a tool. Thereafter, the portfolio committee established a multiparty subcommittee to oversee and give input into the establishment of this tool.

On Wednesday, 31 August 2005, the portfolio committee adopted the final version of this tool. I am proud to present this tool to the House today. The purpose of this monitoring tool is, firstly, to facilitate effective oversight by the various parliamentary committees responsible for safety and security over policing. These include those committees in provincial legislatures and in the National Council of Provinces.

This tool enables us to draw comparisons between the problems and successes experienced by various stations and the various provinces. This also enables us draw from best practice. It will further provide the portfolio committee, the select committee and the standing committees with useful independent data with which to make recommendations to improve the functions of policing. It will further provide important information useful to the committee when engaging with departments during the budget process.

The monitoring tool will assist effective collaboration in oversight functions between the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security and the National Assembly, and the National Assembly, the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs in the NCOP and the standing committees within the various provincial legislatures.

An added advantage of the tool is that it provides Parliament with a mechanism to ensure continuity, not only from year to year but from committee members to committee members and from parliament to parliament.

That brings us to the issue of who should use this tool. Members of the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security will use it when undertaking station visits as part of their constituency work and, also, it will be used by the portfolio committee members as part of their programme.

In addition, the tool may be used by members of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs and the standing committees in provinces when undertaking station visits as part of their constituency work and committee work.

Furthermore, we would like to encourage any member of Parliament, when undertaking station visits as part of their constituency work, to use this monitoring tool. This tool will empower all MPs to conduct visits to police stations from an informed position.

We discovered from other members when we interacted that members do visit police stations but the problem they are faced with is that when they arrive at the stations, they don’t know what information to get from the station. Now this tool will be of assistance to members of Parliament so that, when they visit police stations, they will know what questions to ask the police or what it is that they need to get information on from the police.

All the completed reports will be sent back to the committee secretary for processing. In this way, the data that we will gather will not merely gather dust on a shelf but will be captured in a database from which important reports will be drawn and trends established.

I want to take this opportunity to thank the Information Technology Department in Parliament for developing this database for the portfolio committee. I believe that this tool embodies those very mechanisms that the Constitution refers to when addressing the oversight responsibility of Parliament.

It is a living document and it will change, when necessary. We are currently monitoring the implementation of the Domestic Violence Act and the Gun Control Act at station level. This, as a priority, might change in the future.

The tool was introduced to the Minister for Safety and Security who supported it wholeheartedly. Yesterday I informed National Commissioner Jackie Selebi, about the tool; he supports the implementation thereof and indicated that he will instruct the stations to co-operate with members of Parliament and the members of the legislatures who conduct the oversight visits while using this tool.

Already, three provinces have received training on how to use the monitoring tool and the remaining provinces will follow within a month. The portfolio committee will officially launch this tool during the next term. We will invite the Ministry, all nine MECs and all nine standing committees’ provincial chairs from provinces and the media to the launch of this monitoring tool.

All MPs are urged to attend. This will be of great assistance to members of Parliament when doing their oversight work. I thank you. [Applause.] The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, we move that the report be adopted.

Motion agreed to.

Report accordingly adopted.

AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA AND THE GOVERNMENT OF MALAYSIA FOR THE AVOIDANCE OF DOUBLE TAXATION AND THE PREVENTION OF FISCAL EVASION WITH RESPECT TO TAXES

Mr N M NENE: Madam Chairperson and hon members, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution this House is required to approve agreements between our government and other governments.

Today we present to you our government’s agreement with the government of Malaysia for the avoidance of double taxation and prevention of fiscal evasion with respect to taxes. This is the practices for income tax to be imposed both on the worldwide income derived by residents of the country and on income derived by nonresidents, which arises in that country.

The system has unintended consequences, of course, of discouraging foreign investment because it subjects residents to tax in both countries. These agreements are a mechanism to ensure that residents are not subjected to this unfair situation. This agreement that South Africa has concluded with Malaysia follows the OECD model, which has the following features:

Firstly, the convention applies to residents of one or both of the contracting countries and not from a third country. The convention also applies to any identical or substantially identical taxes that are imposed after the date of the signing of the convention. This agreement provides that the income of a particular nature will either be taxable in only one of the two countries or may be taxed in both countries, with one of them allowing a credit for the tax imposed by the other.

The benefits of our liberation from the rule of apartheid do not come without obligations and responsibilities, as espoused in the People’s Charter when it was declared that we shall extend the tentacles of freedom beyond our own borders.

As a developing country emerging from the isolation brought about by the evil system of apartheid, we have a duty to put our country and the continent on the global economic and political map. These agreements are but one of the agreements that are critical in our international relations that should yield mutual benefits for all.

The Portfolio Committee on Finance considered this agreement and it now recommends that this House approve it in terms of section 231(2). [Applause.] Agreed to.

The House adjourned at 17:48. _____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Bills passed by Houses – to be submitted to President for assent

 (1)    Bill passed by National Council of Provinces on 14 September
     2005:


      i) Judicial Matters Amendment Bill [B 2B – 2005] (National
         Assembly – sec 75).
     ii) Close Corporations Amendment Bill [B 6B – 2005] (National
         Assembly – sec 75).
    iii) Armaments Corporation of South Africa Ltd Amendment Bill [B 14B
         – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 75).
     iv) Defence Special Account Amendment Bill [B 15 – 2005] (National
         Assembly – sec 75).
      v) South African Abattoir Corporation Act Repeal Bill [B 21 –
         2005] (National Assembly – sec 75). 2.    Membership of Committees

(1)    Ms L L Mabe has been elected as Co-Chairperson of the Joint
    Budget Committee with effect from 14 September 2005.

National Assembly

The Speaker

1. Membership of Assembly (floor-crossing)

Membership status of the following member has in terms of Schedule 6A
of the Constitution (floor-crossing) changed, as follows:
  ▪ Mr C V Burgess and Mr Yi-Ju Wang have, on 14 September 2005, left
    the Independent Democrats (ID) and joined the African National
    Congress (ANC).

1. Membership of Committees

(1)    Mr N Nene has been elected as the Chairperson of the Portfolio
    Committee on Finance with effect from 13 September 2005.

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Public Works

   (a) Report and Financial Statements of the Independent Development Trust for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the financial statements for 2004-2005 [RP 129-2005].

2. The Minister of Science and Technology

   (a) Report and Financial Statements of the South African Council for Natural Scientific Professions for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the financial statements for 2004- 2005.

3. The Minister of Trade and Industry (a) Report and Financial Statements of International Trade Administration Commission for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the financial statements for 2004-2005 [RP 80 – 2005].

National Assembly

1. The Speaker

   (a) Report on the Review of the Organisation and Post Establishment of the Office of the Public Protector, August 2003, tabled in terms of section 3(11)(a) of the Public Protector Act, 1994 (Act No 23 of 1994).

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Assembly

1. Thirty-Second Report of Standing Committee on Public Accounts: Land Bank and Agricultural Bank of South Africa, dated 7 September 2005:

   The Standing Committee on Public Accounts, having heard and considered evidence on the Annual Report and the Report of the Auditor-General on the financial statements of the Land Bank (Bank) for the year ended 31 March 2004, reports as follows:

2. Non-compliance with accounting requirements (AC 133), pages 23, 30, 79 & 80

   The financial statements were not drawn up in accordance with South African Statements of Generally Accepted Accounting Practice regarding impairments (i.e. the difference between the book value and the expected recoverable amount). This statement requires: • Security values per individual loan to be discounted to current values; • Interest income to be determined on the impaired value of loans, and • Impairment on individual loans to be the difference between the carrying amount and the expected recoverable amount. It is therefore important that the Bank comply with this accounting requirement, otherwise it would not know the correct amount recoverable from its debtors.

   The Committee recommends that the Accounting Authority ensures that:

   a) The new computer system that the Bank has decided on is adequate in terms of the key requirements of the Bank’s business processes; b) Policies and procedures are developed, documented and implemented that specifically address the requirements of the applicable accounting standard (AC 133); and c) All relevant staff - at Head Office and at branches - fully understand and comply with the requirements of AC 133 through formalised training programmes.

3. Computer System, page 31

   The audit report reflected unresolved deficiencies in the banking loan module of the computer system used by the Bank during the year under review. There were also a number of control weaknesses identified. The Committee is concerned, as it seems that the Bank has been operating with banking and accounting systems which are not altogether appropriate for banking operations. The Committee is further concerned that the Bank only temporarily addressed the systems shortcomings by developing an arrears management system (the AMS), which the branches use to proactively manage the arrears status of loans.

   The Committee recommends that the Accounting Authority ensures that: a) The Bank acquires a banking module that is able to address the reported deficiencies of the previous system, such as the inability to handle the number of logs that are generated; b) SCOPA is provided with the key timelines for the implementation of the new computer system at laest sixty days after this report has been adopted by Parliament. c) Progress on (a) and (b) above be reported to SCOPA on a six monthly basis; d) Independent and regular reconciliations, monitored by management, of the loan book are carried out; as well as continuous risk and credit analyses of the loan book by branch and top management; and e) The arrears management system - whether AMS or another system - be improved in order to quantify the specific impairments as well as validate, monitor and control the completeness of impairment information received from branches.

3.      Bad debts, pages 24 and 31


     Bad debts (loans) to the value of R1,001 million were  written  off
     during February 2004..

     The Committee recommends  that  the  Accounting  Authority  ensures
that:

a) Data integrity is improved to enable the Bank to determine write-offs more reliably; b) Policies and procedures for writing off debts are formalised and approved, and management reviews should ensure that staff strictly adhere to these procedures; c) Write-offs are properly approved and authorised at the appropriate delegated level; and d) Disciplinary action is taken in all cases where policies and procedures are not adhered to.

4.      Capital adequacy, page 6
     The Bank’s key capital adequacy  ratio  fell  from  12,1%  to  9,8%
     during the year under review. Indications are  that  the  liquidity
     situation of the Bank is too low.

     The Committee recommends  that  the  Accounting  Authority  ensures
that:

a) The Bank’s capital base is built up to an acceptable level; b) Based on the Bank’s history in this regard, discussions be held with National Treasury on a way forward regarding the deterioration of reserves due to losses.

5.      Governance  issues, page 111


    The Committtee noted  the following:

a) The three-year contracts of the executive board members all expired at the same time in May 2005. This is bound to have a negative impact on the continuity of governance at the Bank; and b) Since 1994 the Bank has appointed a private audit firm as internal auditors of the Bank, but teamed up with only three internal auditors from the Bank; and c) There were approximately 12 Audit Committee meetings during the year under review, which seem a lot.

The Committee recommends that the Accounting Authority ensures that: a) The Bank adheres to Chapter 5 of the Protocol on Corporate Governance in the Public Sector regarding continuity of Board members[1]; b) Ensures that transfer of skills, such as internal audit skills, take place urgently and effectively in order to limit reliance on the outsourcing of the internal audit function; and c) Given the high number of Audit Committee meetings, the Audit Committee report in detail, in the next annual report to Parliament, on its effectiveness in facilitating corrective steps by management to the findings of the internal auditors, as well as those of the external auditor.

6.      Perfomance information, page 69

The Committee noted that the Bank paid out R3,436 million  as  bonuses,
inlcuding an amount of R360 000 paid to the former CEO.

The Committee was informed of the  reasons  for  the  awarding  of  the
bonuses.  However, as the Bank had experienced losses during the period
SCOPA is not convinced that the bonuses awarded were justified  in  all
instances.

The Committee recommends that the Accounting Authority ensures that:

 a) Clearly defined terms  and  conditions  (policies)  are  developed,
    documented and implemented for the awarding of bonusses;  and
 b) The policies must be provided to SCOPA within 60  days  after  this
    report is adopted by Parliament.


7.       Non-compliance   with   rules,   regulations,   policies   and
    procedures, p30

The audit report highlighted instances of non-compliance with the  PFMA
and  Treasury  Regulations  with  regard  to  the  late  submission  of
financial  statements,   their   incompleteness,   and   the   required
materiality framework.  These were  not  presented  to  the  Accounting
Authority for approval, nor included in the corporate plans for 2003/04
and 2004/05.

The  Committee  recommends  that  the  Accounting   Authority   ensures
compliance with all requirements of the  PFMA  so  as  to  avoid  being
liable for financial misconduct as provided for in  secton  83  of  the
PFMA.

Conclusion

The Committee is of the view  that  no  further  interaction  with  the
accounting authority of the Bank is necessary for  the  financial  year
under review.

The Committee therefore awaits the next Annual Report and the Report of
the Auditor General.

Report to be considered.

1. Thirty-Third Report of Standing Committee on Public Accounts: Accounting Standards Board, dated 7 September 2005:

   INTRODUCTION
   

The Standing Committee on Public Accounts, having considered the Annual
report and the Report of the  Independent  Auditors  on  the  Financial
Statements of  the  Accounting  Standards  Board  for  the  year  ended
31 March 2004, reports as follows:


AUDIT OPINION

The Committee noted the unqualified  audit  opinion  expressed  by  the
Independent Auditors, and trusts that future audit  opinions  shall  be
equally unqualified.


CONCLUSION

The Committee is of the view  that  no  further  interaction  with  the
accounting authority of the Accounting Standards Board is necessary for
the financial year under review.


The Committee therefore awaits the next Annual Report and the Report of
the Independent Auditors.

Report to be considered.

1. Thirty-Fourth Report of Standing Committee on Public Accounts: Corporation for Public Deposits, dated 7 September 2005:

1.      INTRODUCTION


    The Standing Committee on Public Accounts,  having  considered  the
    Annual Report and the Report of the  Independent  Auditors  on  the
    Financial Statements of the Corporation for Public Deposits for the
    year ended 31 March 2004, reports as follows:


2.      AUDIT OPINION


    The Committee noted the  unqualified  audit  opinion  expressed  by
    Ernest & Young and trusts  that  future  audit  opinions  shall  be
    equally unqualified.


    CONCLUSION


    The Committee is of the view that no further interaction  with  the
    accounting authority of the  Corporation  for  Public  Deposits  is
    necessary for the financial year under review.


    The Committee therefore awaits  the  next  Annual  Report  and  the
    Report of the Independent Auditors.

Report to be considered.

1. Thirty-Fifth Report of Standing Committee on Public Accounts: Development Bank of Southern Africa Limited, dated 7 September 2005:

2. INTRODUCTION

The Standing Committee on Public Accounts, having considered the Annual
Report and the Report of the  Independent  Auditors  on  the  Financial
Statements of the Developmental Bank Of Southern Africa Limited for the
year ended 31 March 2004, tabled in  Parliament  and  referred  to  it,
reports as follows:

1. AUDIT OPINION

The Committee noted the unqualified  audit  opinion  expressed  by  the
independent auditors and trusts that future  audit  opinions  shall  be
equally unqualified.

1. CONCLUSION

The Committee is of the view  that  no  further  interaction  with  the
accounting authority of  the  Developmental  Bank  Of  Southern  Africa
Limited is necessary for the financial year under review.


The Committee therefore awaits the next Annual Report and the Report of
the Independent Auditors.

Report to be considered.

1. Thirty-Sixth Report of Standing Committee on Public Accounts: Export Credit Insurance Corporation of South Africa, dated 7 September 2005:

1.      INTRODUCTION

    The Standing Committee on Public Accounts,  having  considered  the
    Annual Report and the Report of the  Independent  Auditors  on  the
    Financial Statements of the Export Credit Insurance Corporation  of
    South Africa Ltd for the  year  ended  31 March  2004,  reports  as
    follows:

2.      AUDIT OPINION

    The Committee noted the unqualified audit opinion expressed by  the
    Independent Auditors and trusts that future audit opinions shall be
    equally unqualified.


3.      CONCLUSION

     The Committee is of the view that no further interaction  with  the
     accounting authority of  Export  Credit  Insurance  Corporation  of
     South Africa Ltd is necessary for the financial year under review.


     The Committee therefore awaits  the  next  Annual  Report  and  the
     Report of the Independent Auditors.

Report to be considered.

1. Thirty-Seventh Report of Standing Committee on Public Accounts: Greater St. Lucia Wetland Park, dated 7 September 2005:

2. INTRODUCTION

The Standing Committee on Public Accounts, having considered the Annual
Report  and  the  Report  of  the  Auditor-General  on  the   Financial
Statements of the Greater St. Lucia Wetland Park  for  the  year  ended
31 March 2004, reports as follows:

1. AUDIT OPINION

The Committee noted the unqualified audit opinion expressed by the
Auditor-General and trusts that future audit opinions shall be equally
unqualified.

1. CONCLUSION

The Committee is of the view  that  no  further  interaction  with  the
accounting authority of the Greater St Lucia Wetland Park is  necessary
for the financial year under review.


The Committee therefore awaits the next Annual Report and the Report of
the Auditor-General.

Report to be considered.

1. Thirty-Eighth Report of Standing Committee on Public Accounts: Khula Enterprise Finance Limited, dated 7 September 2005: 1. INTRODUCTION

   The Standing Committee on Public Accounts, having considered the Annual Report and the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements of Khula Enterprise Finance Limited for the year ended 31 March 2004, tabled in Parliament and referred to it, reports as follows:

2.      AUDIT OPINION
     The Committee noted the  unqualified  audit  opinion  expressed  by
     Sizwe Ntsaluba VSP Inc. and trusts that future audit opinions shall
     be equally unqualified.


3.      CONCLUSION

     The Committee is of the view that no further interaction  with  the
     accounting  authority  of  Khula  Enterprise  Finance  Limited   is
     necessary for the financial year under review.


     The Committee therefore awaits  the  next  Annual  Report  and  the
     Report of the Independent Auditors.

Report to be considered.

1. Thirty-Ninth Report of Standing Committee on Public Accounts: National Botanical Institute, dated 7 September 2005:

1.      INTRODUCTION
     The Standing Committee on Public Accounts,  having  considered  the
     Annual report  and  the  Report  of  the  Auditor  General  on  the
     Financial Statements of the National Botanical  Institute  for  the
     year ended 31 March 2004, reports as follows:

2.      AUDIT OPINION


     The Committee noted the unqualified audit opinion expressed by  the
     Auditor General and trusts that  future  audit  opinions  shall  be
     equally unqualified.


3.      CONCLUSION

     The Committee is of the view that no further interaction  with  the
     accounting  authority  of  the  National  Botanical  Institute   is
     necessary for the financial year under review.


     The Committee therefore awaits  the  next  Annual  Report  and  the
     Report of the Auditor General.

Report to be considered.

1. Fortieth Report of Standing Committee on Public Accounts: National Gambling Board, dated 7 September 2005:

1.      INTRODUCTION

    The Standing Committee on Public Accounts,  having  considered  the
    Annual Report  and  the  Report  of  the  Auditor  General  on  the
    Financial Statements of the National Gambling Board  for  the  year
    ended 31 March 2004, reports as follows:

2.      AUDIT OPINION

    The Committee noted the unqualified audit opinion expressed by  the
    Auditor-General and trusts that  future  audit  opinions  shall  be
    equally unqualified.

3.      CONCLUSION

The Committee is of the view  that  no  further  interaction  with  the
accounting authority of the National Gambling Board  is  necessary  for
the financial year under review.


The Committee therefore awaits the next Annual Report and the Report of
the Auditor General.

Report to be considered.

1. Forty-First Report of Standing Committee on Public Accounts: South African National Accreditation System, dated 7 September 2005:

2. INTRODUCTION

The Standing Committee on Public Accounts, having considered the Annual
Report and the Report of the  Independent  Auditors  on  the  Financial
Statements of the South African National Accreditation  System  (SANAS)
for the year ended 31 March 2004, reports as follows:

1. AUDIT OPINION

The Committee noted the unqualified audit opinion expressed by  Booysen
&  Dry  and  trusts  that  future  audit  opinions  shall  be   equally
unqualified. 3.    CONCLUSION

The Committee is of the view  that  no  further  interaction  with  the
accounting authority of the SANAS is necessary for the  financial  year
under review.


The Committee therefore awaits the next Annual Report and the Report of
the Independent Auditors.

Report to be considered.

1. Forty-Second Report of Standing Committee on Public Accounts: South African National Parks, dated 7 September 2005:

1.      INTRODUCTION

     The Standing Committee on Public Accounts, having considered the
     Annual Report and the Report of the Auditor-General on the
     Financial Statements of the South African National Parks for the
     year ended 31 March 2004, reports as follows:

2.      AUDIT OPINION

     The Committee noted the unqualified audit opinion expressed by the
     Auditor-General and trusts that future audit opinions shall be
     equally unqualified.


3.      CONCLUSION
     The Committee is of the view that no further interaction  with  the
     accounting  authority  of  the  South  African  National  Parks  is
     necessary for the financial year under review.


     The Committee therefore awaits  the  next  Annual  Report  and  the
     Report of the Auditor General.

Report to be considered.

1. Forty-Third Report of Standing Committee on Public Accounts: Finance, Accounting, Management Consulting and Other Financial Sectors, dated 7 September 2005:

1.      INTRODUCTION

     The Standing Committee on Public Accounts, having considered the
     Annual Report and the Report of the Auditor-General on the
     Financial Statements of the FASSET for the year ended 31 March
     2004, reports as follows:

2.      AUDIT OPINION

     The Committee noted the unqualified audit opinion expressed by the
     Auditor-General and trusts that future audit opinions shall be
     equally unqualified.


3.      CONCLUSION

     The Committee is of the view that no further interaction  with  the
     accounting authority of FASSET is necessary for the financial  year
     under review.

     The Committee therefore awaits  the  next  Annual  Report  and  the
     Report of the Auditor General.

Report to be considered.

1. Forty-Fourth Report of Standing Committee on Public Accounts: Transport Education and Training Authority, dated 7 September 2005:

1.      INTRODUCTION
     The Standing Committee on Public Accounts,  having  considered  the
     Annual  Report  and  the  Report  of  the  Auditor-General  on  the
     Financial  Statements  of  the  Transport  Education  and  Training
     Authority for the year ended 31 March 2004, reports as follows:

2.      AUDIT OPINION

     The Committee noted the unqualified audit opinion expressed by  the
     Auditor-General and trusts that  future  audit  opinions  shall  be
     equally unqualified.


3.      GENERAL MATTERS:

     The Committee also noted with disappointment the ineffective audit
     committee, which seldom meets and gives insufficient attention to
     the internal audit function.
     The Committee expects this issue to be rectified as a matter of
     urgency and SCOPA will monitor that in the next Annual Report.


             CONCLUSION


     The Committee is of the view that except for the aspect highlighted
     above, no further interaction  with  the  Transport  Education  and
     Training Authority would be necessary for the financial year  under
     review.


     The Committee therefore awaits  the  next  Annual  Report  and  the
     Report of the Auditor-General.

Report to be considered.

1. Forty-Fifth Report of Standing Committee on Public Accounts: Insurance Sector Education and Training Authority, dated 7 September 2005:

1.      INTRODUCTION

     The Standing Committee on Public Accounts, having considered the
     Annual Report and the Report of the Auditor-General on the
     Financial Statements of the INSETA for the year ended 31 March
     2004, reports as follows:


2.      AUDIT OPINION

     The Committee noted the unqualified audit opinion expressed by the
     Auditor-General and trusts that future audit opinions shall be
     equally unqualified.




3.      CONCLUSION

     The Committee is of the view that no further interaction  with  the
     accounting authority of INSETA is necessary for the financial  year
     under review.


     The Committee therefore awaits  the  next  Annual  Report  and  the
     Report of the Auditor General.

Report to be considered.

1. Forty-Sixth Report of Standing Committee on Public Accounts: South African Tourism, dated 7 September 2005:

1.      INTRODUCTION

     The Standing Committee on Public Accounts, having considered the
     Annual Report and the Report of the Auditor-General on the
     Financial Statements of South African Tourism for the year ended
     31 March 2004, reports as follows:

2.      AUDIT OPINION

     The Committee noted the unqualified audit opinion expressed by the
     Auditor-General, and trusts that future audit opinions shall be
     equally unqualified.


3.      CONCLUSION

     The Committee is of the view that no further interaction  with  the
     accounting authority of the South African Tourism is necessary  for
     the financial year under review.


     The Committee therefore awaits  the  next  Annual  Report  and  the
     Report of the Auditor-General.

Report to be considered.

1. Forty-Seventh Report of Standing Committee on Public Accounts: Banking Sector Education and Training Authority, dated 7 September 2005:

1.      INTRODUCTION

     The Standing Committee on Public Accounts, having considered the
     Annual Report and the Report of the Auditor-General on the
     Financial Statements of the BANKSETA for the year ended 31 March
     2004, reports as follows:


2.      AUDIT OPINION

     The Committee noted the unqualified audit opinion expressed by the
     Auditor-General and trusts that future audit opinions shall be
     equally unqualified.




3.      CONCLUSION

     The Committee is of the view that no further interaction  with  the
     accounting authority of the BANKSETA is necessary for the financial
     year under review.


     The Committee therefore awaits the next Annual Report and the
     Report of the Auditor General.

Report to be considered.

1. Forty-Eight Report of Standing Committee on Public Accounts: Information Systems, Electronics and Telecommunications Technologies Services Sector Education and Training Authority, dated 7 September 2005:

1.      INTRODUCTION

     The Standing Committee on Public Accounts, having considered the
     Annual Report and the Report of the Auditor-General on the
     Financial Statements of the ISETT for the year ended 31 March 2004,
     reports as follows:

2.      AUDIT OPINION
     The Committee noted the unqualified audit opinion expressed by  the
     Auditor-General and trusts that  future  audit  opinions  shall  be
     equally unqualified.


    The Committee also noted with concern that no annual internal audit
     coverage plan has yet been approved for the 2004/2005 financial
     year.


     The  Committee  recommends  that   the   Management   expeditiously
     rectifies the issues in question.


3.      CONCLUSION

     The  Committee  is  of  the  view  that,  except  for  the  aspects
     highlighted above,  no  further  interaction  with  the  accounting
     authority of the ISETT is necessary for the  financial  year  under
     review.
     The Committee therefore awaits  the  next  Annual  Report  and  the
     Report of the Auditor-General.

Report to be considered.

1. Forty-Ninth Report of Standing Committee on Public Accounts: Forest Industries Education and Training, dated 7 September 2005:

1.      INTRODUCTION

     The Standing Committee on Public Accounts, having considered the
     Annual Report and the Report of the Auditor-General on the
     Financial Statements of the FIETA for the year ended 31 March 2004,
     reports as follows:


2.      AUDIT OPINION

     The Committee noted the unqualified audit opinion expressed by the
     Auditor-General and trusts that future audit opinions shall be
     equally unqualified.


     EMPHASIS OF MATTER BY THE AUDITOR GENERAL
     The Committee noted with concern that the FIETA did not submit  the
     budget by 30 September 2003 as is required in terms of  Section  53
     (1) of the PFMA Act, 1999.


3.      CONCLUSION

    The Committee is of the view that no further interaction  with  the
    accounting authority of FIETA is necessary for the  financial  year
    under review.


    The Committee therefore awaits  the  next  Annual  Report  and  the
    Report of the Auditor General.

Report to be considered.

1. Fiftieth Report of Standing Committee on Public Accounts: Health Welfare Sector Education and Training Authority, dated 7 September 2005:

1.      INTRODUCTION

     The Standing Committee on Public Accounts,  having  considered  the
     Annual  Report  and  the  Report  of  the  Auditor-General  on  the
     Financial Statements of the Health And Welfare Sector Education And
     Training Authority (HWSETA) for  the  year  ended  31  March  2004,
     reports as follows:


2.      AUDIT OPINION

     The Committee noted the unqualified audit opinion expressed by  the
     Auditor-General and trusts that  future  audit  opinions  shall  be
     equally unqualified.


3.      GENERAL MATTERS:

     SCOPA requests details of how and when the HWSETA plans to reduce
     its excessive cash reserves and be tabled in Parliament within 60
     days after this report has been adopted by Parliament.


4.           CONCLUSION


     The Committee is of the view that except for the aspect highlighted
     above; no further interaction with the HWSETA  would  be  necessary
     for the financial year under review.


     The Committee therefore awaits  the  next  Annual  Report  and  the
     Report of the Auditor-General.

Report to be considered.

1. Fifty-First Report of Standing Committee on Public Accounts: Diplomacy, Intelligence, Defence and Trade Education and Training Authority, dated 7 September 2005:

1.      INTRODUCTION

     The Standing Committee on Public Accounts,  having  considered  the
     Annual  Report  and  the  Report  of  the  Auditor-General  on  the
     Financial Statements of the DIDTETA for the  year  ended  31  March
     2004, reports as follows:

2.      AUDIT OPINION

     The Committee noted the unqualified audit opinion expressed by  the
     Auditor-General, and trusts that future  audit  opinions  shall  be
     equally unqualified.


3.      GENERAL MATTERS:

     The Committee noted that DIDTETA has not submitted written reasons
     as to why DIDTETA should not be amalgamated with another SETA.
     The Committee expects this issue to be rectified within 60 days
     after this report has been adopted by Parliament.


             CONCLUSION

    The Committee is of the view that except for the aspect highlighted
    above, no further interaction with the DIDTETA would  be  necessary
    for the financial year under review.


    The Committee therefore awaits  the  next  Annual  Report  and  the
    Report of the Auditor-General.

Report to be considered.

1. Fifty-Second Report of Standing Committee on Public Accounts: Media, Advertising, Publishing, Printing and Packing Sector Education Training Authority, dated 7 September 2005:

1.      INTRODUCTION
     The Standing Committee on Public Accounts,  having  considered  the
     Annual  Report  and  the  Report  of  the  Auditor-General  on  the
     Financial Statements of the MAPPPSETA for the year ended  31  March
     2004, reports as follows:


2.      AUDIT OPINION

     The Committee noted the unqualified audit opinion expressed by  the
     Auditor-General and trusts that  future  audit  opinions  shall  be
     equally unqualified.


3.      GENERAL MATTERS


    The Committee requests that the MAPPPSETA report to Parliament
    within 60 days after this report has been adopted by Parliament
    regarding: inadequate terms of reference for the audit committee;
    progress report regarding the forensic audit into the discretionary
    grant payments; and       details of how and when MAPPPSETA plans
    to reduce its high cash reserves.


4.           CONCLUSION

     The Committee is of the view that except for the aspect highlighted
     above, no further interaction with the MAPPPSETA would be necessary
     for the financial year under review.


     The Committee therefore awaits  the  next  Annual  Report  and  the
     Report of the Auditor-General.

Report to be considered.

1. Fifty-Third Report of Standing Committee on Public Accounts: Tourism, Hospitality, and Transport Education and Training Authority, dated 7 September 2005:

1.      INTRODUCTION

     The Standing Committee on Public Accounts,  having  considered  the
     Annual  Report  and  the  Report  of  the  Auditor-General  on  the
     Financial Statements of the THETA for the year ended 31 March 2004,
     reports as follows:


2.      AUDIT OPINION

     The Committee noted the unqualified audit opinion expressed by  the
     Auditor-General and trusts that  future  audit  opinions  shall  be
     equally unqualified.


3.      GENERAL MATTERS:

    The Committee noted with disappointment that: the administration
   costs exceed 10% of total expenditure; and VAT registration procedure
   not followed.


    SCOPA requests details of how and when the THETA plans to reduce
    its excessive cash reserves and be tabled in Parliament within 60
    days after this report has been adopted by Parliament.
4.          CONCLUSION


     The Committee is of the view that except for the aspect highlighted
     above, no further interaction with the THETA would be necessary for
     the financial year under review.


     The Committee therefore awaits  the  next  Annual  Report  and  the
     Report of the Auditor-General.

Report to be considered.

1. Fifty-Forth Report of Standing Committee on Public Accounts: Chemical Industries Education and Training Authority, dated 7 September 2005:

1.      INTRODUCTION

    The Standing Committee on Public Accounts,  having  considered  the
    Annual  Report  and  the  Report  of  the  Auditor-General  on  the
    Financial  Statements  of  the  Chemical  Industries  Education   &
    Training Authority (CHIETA) for  the  year  ended  31  March  2004,
    reports as follows:

2.      AUDIT OPINION

     The Committee noted the unqualified audit opinion expressed by  the
     Auditor-General and trusts that  future  audit  opinions  shall  be
     equally unqualified.


3.      GENERAL MATTERS:

The Committee also noted with disappointment that the CHIETA: did not have a fraud prevention plan as required by Treasury regulation 27.2.1; Bank reconciliations not done on a weekly basis as per PFMA; and has incomplete asset register.

4.          RECOMMENDATION


     The Committee recommend that the CHIETA report to Parliament
     within 60 days after this report has been adopted by Parliament:
     on the status of  implementation of fraud prevention plan; and on
     whether the asset register has been completed and up to date.


                 CONCLUSION

     The Committee is of the view that except for the aspect highlighted
     above, no further interaction with the CHIETA  would  be  necessary
     for the financial year under review.


     The Committee therefore awaits  the  next  Annual  Report  and  the
     Report of the Auditor-General.

Report to be considered.

1. Fifty-Fifth Report of Standing Committee on Public Accounts: Education, Training and Development Practices Sector Education and Training, dated 7 September 2005:

1.  INTRODUCTION

  The Standing Committee  on  Public  Accounts,  having  considered  the
  Annual Report and the Report of the Auditor-General on  the  Financial
  Statements of the Education, Training and Development Practices Sector
  Education and Training (ETDP SETA) for the year ended 31  March  2004,
  reports as follows:

2.  AUDIT OPINION

  The Committee noted the unqualified audit  opinion  expressed  by  the
  Auditor-General and trusts that future audit opinions shall be equally
  unqualified.


3.  GENERAL MATTERS:

The Committee also noted with disappointment that the ETDP-SETA: did not have a fraud prevention plan as required by Treasury regulation 27.2.1 and has incomplete asset register.

4.      RECOMMENDATION


     The Committee recommend that the ETDP SETA report to Parliament
     within 60 days after this report has been adopted by Parliament:
    on the status of an effectively implementation fraud prevention
     plan; and
    on whether the asset register is it complete and up to date.


5.      CONCLUSION

     The Committee is of the view that except for the aspect highlighted
     above, no further interaction with the ETDP SETA would be necessary
     for the financial year under review.


     The Committee therefore awaits  the  next  Annual  Report  and  the
     Report of the Auditor-General.

Report to be considered.

1. Fifty-Sixth Report of Standing Committee on Public Accounts: Food and Beverage SETA, dated 7 September 2005:

1.      INTRODUCTION

     The Standing Committee on Public Accounts,  having  considered  the
     Annual  Report  and  the  Report  of  the  Auditor-General  on  the
     Financial Statements of the FOODBEV SETA  for  the  year  ended  31
     March 2004, reports as follows:


2.      AUDIT OPINION

     The Committee noted the unqualified audit opinion expressed by  the
     Auditor-General and trusts that  future  audit  opinions  shall  be
     equally unqualified.


3.      GENERAL MATTERS

    The Committee noted with disappointment that:
    the FoodBev SETA did not have fraud prevention plan as required by
    Treasury regulation 27.2.1 should explain how interest was incurred
    on a bank overdraft when FOODBEV SETA has such high cash reserves.


4.         RECOMMENDATION

     The Committee recommend that the FOODBEV SETA report to Parliament
     within 60 days after the receipt of the resolution: on the status
     of an effectively implemented fraud prevention plan; and how
     FOODBEV SETA intend to rectify the issue of bank overdraft.


5.          CONCLUSION

     The Committee is of the view that except for the aspect highlighted
     above, no further  interaction  with  the  FOODBEV  SETA  would  be
     necessary for the financial year under review.


     The Committee therefore awaits  the  next  Annual  Report  and  the
     Report of the Auditor-General.

Report to be considered.

1. Fifty-Seventh Report of Standing Committee on Public Accounts: Energy Sector for Education and Training Authority, dated 7 September 2005:

1.      INTRODUCTION

     The Standing Committee on Public Accounts,  having  considered  the
     Annual  Report  and  the  Report  of  the  Auditor-General  on  the
     Financial Statements of the Energy SETA for the year ended 31 March
     2004, reports as follows:

2.      AUDIT OPINION

     The Committee noted the unqualified audit opinion expressed by  the
     Auditor-General and trusts that  future  audit  opinions  shall  be
     equally unqualified.


3.      GENERAL MATTERS:

     The Committee noted with disappointment that the Energy SETA:
    has submitted their financial statements late; did not have fraud
    prevention plan as required by Treasury regulation 27.2.1; has
    incomplete asset register.


4.           RECOMMENDATION
     The Committee requests details of how and when the Energy SETA
     plans to reduce its excessive cash reserves and report to
     Parliament within 60 days after the receipt of the resolution.


     The Committee also requests a report to Parliament on whether the
     asset register is complete and up to date within 60 days after the
     receipt of the resolution.


5.           CONCLUSION

     The Committee is of the view that except for the aspect highlighted
     above, no  further  interaction  with  the  Energy  SETA  would  be
     necessary for the financial year under review.


     The Committee therefore awaits  the  next  Annual  Report  and  the
     Report of the Auditor-General.

Report to be considered.

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Education on the Education Laws Amendment Bill [B 23-2005] (National Assembly - sec 76), dated 13 September 2005:

   The Portfolio Committee on Education, having considered the subject of the Education Laws Amendment Bill [B 23 - 2005] (National Assembly - sec 76), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 76 Bill, reports the Bill with amendments [B 23A - 2005].

[1] See par 5.1.6.4