WEDNESDAY, 2 NOVEMBER 2005 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

                                ____

The House met at 15:02.

The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

                    APPOINTMENT OF UNDERSECRETARY


                           (Announcement)

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, before we proceed with today’s business, I wish to indicate that the post of the Undersecretary: House Plenaries Unit in the NA Table division has been vacant for some time now. It is my pleasure to announce to the House that the Secretary to Parliament has, with effect from 1 November, appointed Mr Masibulele Xaso to the post of Undersecretary: House Plenaries.

In that capacity he will be responsible for all procedural and related support services to plenary meetings of the NA, as well as the parliamentary programme. Congratulations, sir. [Applause.]

Hon members, I wish to acknowledge the presence in the gallery of a delegation of the CPA parliamentarians led by Ms N Kim. Hon members, welcome to Parliament. [Applause.]

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY

                              ECONOMICS
                              Cluster 3

MINISTERS:

                  Mine dust pollution on East Rand

1. Rev K R J Meshoe (ACDP) asked the Minister of Minerals and Energy:

   (1) (a) How many complaints per month have been received by her department since 2001 about dust from mine dumps on the East Rand and (b) who is responsible for the prevention, mitigation and management of mine dust pollution in the area;

   (2) whether her department has instructed relevant mining companies to implement preventative techniques to prevent dust pollution, specifically during the dry and windy seasons; if not, why not; if so, when;

   (3) whether such an instruction was carried out; if not, why not; if so,

   (4) whether the measures that have been implemented to date to solve the problem of mine dust pollution have proven to be satisfactory; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? N2175E

The MINISTER OF MINERALS AND ENERGY: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The answer to the first question is as follows: The Gauteng regional office of the Department of Minerals and Energy has a complaints register file, which is updated on a regular basis. The complaints that actually reached the department are far and few. The number of complaints per month on average since 2001 would therefore be less than one complaint per month, with only one or two complaints being received per year.

The reason for the low incidence of complaints is not because there is no dust problem, but rather because of effective multiparty forums in place to address these problems.

The answer to (b) is as follows: Mining companies who hold rights, or are currently operating in terms of applicable mining legislation, are the ones responsible for the prevention, mitigation and management of mine dust pollution in terms of environmental management programmes, which are approved by the department.

In relation to the second part of the question, the answer is: Whenever holders of rights are in contravention of the relevant provisions of the law the department normally issues instructions to the relevant holders to take corrective steps. The department would then investigate and monitor, and if complaints are valid or they are in contravention of the law, we could even close those mining operations.

With regard to (3), it is not possible to respond to this because we were not given the specific name of the company that is referred to here. There are numerous mine dumps in the East Rand. So, we were not sure which instruction the hon member was referring to.

And, regarding the last question: The systems of environmental management programmes - are the measures in place to manage the mining environment, including dust pollution? Gauteng province has a historic legacy where mining has been taking place for approximately 117 years, long before environmental management was introduced into the legislation in 1991. So, ever since then, there is a requirement for the mining industries to lodge their environmental management programmes with the department when they apply for licences. I thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Rev K R J MESHOE: Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, about four years ago I put a similar question to the then Minister of Minerals and Energy who said that the problem of dust pollution falls within the jurisdiction of the said department. This House was told that inspections are done continuously to monitor the status of dust prevention programmes. I therefore find it strange that when the assistant director of environment is asked about the measures the department is taking to address the dust mine pollution problem on the East Rand, she claims that the Department of Minerals and Energy head office does not have direct access to the requested information.

Is it not the Department of Minerals and Energy that should be doing the inspections and monitoring the status of dust prevention programmes? And as the problem of mine pollution falls within its jurisdiction, we believe that the department should keep proper records so that when we ask for answers, the department could give them without referring us to the regional directors.

We believe, because mine dust is impacting on the health of our people, the department must make sure that all the mining companies are adhering to the standards that are agreed upon and that where they are not adhered to that proper action should be taken because we are concerned about the health of the people who are subjected to dust every day of their lives. I thank you.

The MINISTER OF MINERALS AND ENERGY: Madam Deputy Speaker, I am not sure what the hon member is talking about, because when I stood here I clearly stated that the Department of Minerals and Energy services those provinces through its regional offices. That’s how we function; we’ve got nine offices in every province through which we service those provinces. So, the information on problems of dust pollution or whatever problems with mine dumps will be located at the regional office. And, it is that office that has been able to give me a very clear and concise description of how they have been working in terms of containing dust pollution. So, it is definitely a responsibility of my department. We are doing that, and we are keeping a record. I said that we do keep a register, which is updated on a regular basis. So, I am not very sure of what the hon member is talking about.

Further, at our offices we have records of mining activities taking place, as well as measures that mining companies have put in place, to ensure that they would be able to prevent or mitigate whatever goes wrong in the surrounding communities.

So, from my point of view, the department is very much on top of this. As I have already explained, there is a committee that sits and deals with the concerns. That is why there isn’t so much reporting in the East Rand because of this East Rand Mine Dust Eradication Committee. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon member, hon Minister, in his question mentioned a response that he got from an official about four years ago – or something like that. Would the hon member please send that to the Minister so that it would be easier for her to refer to it, otherwise if we just say that you spoke to an official she may not know to whom you are referring, OK? Thank you.

Mr J P I BLANCHÉ: Madam Chair, about two or three years ago, Mr Duma Nkosi, the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Minerals and Energy was out at the dump site of the East Rand Proprietary Mines; so was Mrs Mary Metcalf. They were all involved in this, and at that time the Minister said to us that they would rehabilitate those mine dumps. This is why the public is still complaining that it has not been done.

What we should investigate and come forth with is the rehabilitation fund of ERPM. Is it still up to the level where it should be? Has it been depleted? Why has this specific dump not been rehabilitated, even though our officials were out there? And at that time they said to us they only have five inspectors to inspect, countrywide, where all these dumps are and whether the dumps are being rehabilitated.

About three months ago, on the same mine site, a person fell into an open shaft. We were also told in this House that all the shafts have been sealed. So, it seems to me that the rehabilitation is not taking place in accordance with what the Minister explained to this House two years ago. Could the Minister please inform the House whether the inspections have been done or whether that fund is still available?

The MINISTER OF MINERALS AND ENERGY: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I definitely wouldn’t be able to give responses about ERPM, which is a completely new issue that is being asked about. The question in place also didn’t ask any question about a fund which three months ago somebody said something about it.

What I can say is that the department has a programme of rehabilitation of both derelict and ownerless mines, and that the programme has the funds allocated to it and that it is being implemented. Unfortunately, whether it is done at the East Rand Proprietary Mines or not, I cannot answer that question.

Mr B M KOMPHELA: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. The new Act, hon Minister, is expected to address most of these historic legacies during this period; a legacy, which you stated is 117 years old and which you are expected to clean it up with this new Act, which has just been passed. Could the Minister share the information on how this new Act is going to address this and most likely try to put in place some punitive measures to enforce that people must be sensitive to these environmental issues? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF MINERALS AND ENERGY: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. As I have already said, hon member, mining has been taking place for about 117 years and that during all those years there was no legislation in place to make sure that as people mine they do it in a way that is environmentally friendly. So with the passing of what we call the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act, we came up with a process whereby when people come to convert from their old order mining rights to the new order mining rights, they must also lodge with the department what we call environmental management programmes.

So, these programmes are expected to help us ensure that people comply with environmental damage and degradation legislation. And, if they don’t do so, obviously it would be a breach of the conditions of their licences. We are hoping that through this new arrangement we will ensure that as mines open they also lodge with us a plan in terms of which rehabilitation is going to happen.

Most of these plans contain a detailed description of the existing environment where the mining operation takes place. Their plan must also demonstrate how the mining activities are going to impact on the defined environment and also explain how the mine is going to manage such impacts, including all activities that would be conducted to remedy the impacts, and their timeframes.

So, we hope that through this new legislation there won’t in future be what we today call ownerless and derelict mines because everyone who is mining will have a responsibility to rehabilitate the mines they have been mining. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

                Challenges regarding public transport

1. Mr J P Cronin (ANC) asked the Minister of Transport:

 Whether any major initiatives were undertaken in the course of October
 2005 to highlight challenges with regard to the provision of public
 transport; if not, why not; if so, (a) what are the relevant details
 and (b) what lessons have been learnt.

  N2188E

The MINISTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISES (for the Minister of Transport): Madam Deputy Speaker, the Minister of Transport has apologised. He’s unable to be here, but he did ask me to answer the questions. I’ll do my best.

I’ve got a very comprehensive answer here, hon member, but the long and short of it is that there was an extensive campaign, in the month of October, around public transport. This followed a Transport lekgotla that was organised in conjunction with the MECs, the SA Rail Commuter Corporation, Airports Company and a number of other agencies linked to public transport.

The objectives of this transport month were to raise awareness of the important role and benefits of public transport in the economy and society; to ensure popular participation and partnerships with public transport; transformation showcasing the government initiatives for immediate improvement in public transport; to prepare the public for impending measures to control private car use in favour of public transport in metropolitan areas; and to highlight the shortcomings in public transport, in particular, the lack of regular public transport in most rural areas in South Africa.

With regard to the specific events, hon member, there’s a very long list here, which I won’t read out, but I’m sure we would supply you with it. These initiatives were essentially designed to highlight some of the current deficiencies and shortcomings in our public transport system.

Mr J P CRONIN: Madam Deputy Speaker, I thank the Minister for that response and I obviously look forward to seeing the more comprehensive response to the question.

I think, in retrospect, that it was perhaps a pity that we highlighted the notion of a car-free day in the course of October. It set us up for an apparent failure when, in fact, I think, the whole campaign was extremely successful. If we had called it “A day of solidarity with public transport users”, I think we might more accurately have described what actually happened, which is that Ministers and MECs, and many others, boarded public mode of transport and experienced the many problems that commuters face on a daily basis.

The question I’d like to ask the Minister, by way of follow-up, is: Would he agree that, often, public transport and the provision of it is for traders a social delivery issue, which it certainly is? Mobility is an important human right. However, there is also a very strong case, a hard- nosed economic case, that if we are going to achieve the 6% sustained growth that we are talking about, it’s not going to be possible if workers battle to get to work, if the travel experience is difficult and if the productivity of workers is undermined. So would the Minister agree that sustained spending on and subsidising of public transport is an important element of our growth objectives?

The MINISTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Madam Deputy Speaker, I think I can safely speak on behalf of government and the Minister concerned, that we strongly agree with that viewpoint. As you can also see in the terrain between public enterprises and transport, we are dividing the commuter rail out of Transnet, forming a new entity, because we acknowledge that public transportation, not only in South Africa, but worldwide, needs subsidies. It is crucial for the working of the economy.

The safer and more efficient public transport is, the more effective our workforce is, and the more secure our citizenry. So I think that the emphasis now being placed on public transport by government as a whole, and by the Ministry of Transport in particular, is a very strong commitment and realisation that we have to take exceptional steps to improve the system.

Mr S N SWART: Madam Deputy Speaker, arising from the hon Minister’s reply, the ACDP appreciates the Minister of Transport’s recent concession at the railway safety conference in Somerset West, where he said, and I quote: “Neither infrastructure nor assets have been adequately maintained”, and that there was, I quote, “a total absence of track maintenance”.

In view of that concession and the recent collision between the Blue Train and the Shosholoza Meyl, I was going to ask him what initiatives could we expect to improve rail commuter safety? And, possibly, the Minister of Finance can repeat what he said regarding the medium-term expenditure relating to railway improvements. So that was the question I was going to put to him. I don’t know whether you are in a position to respond to that question. Could I have your response, whatever it is, Minister?

The MINISTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Madam Deputy Speaker, whatever the Minister of Finance said was very sensible, because he’s about to . . . [Laughter.] . . . So I’m sure we support it.

At that safety conference, which was a very interesting, worldwide conference, the Minister of Transport outlined the changes we intend making on the rail safety regulators. And yes, it is an area that we have to pay special attention to.

The current commuter rail structure, where you have provision of a service from Transnet and the SA Rail Commuter Corporation owning the infrastructure, is not a satisfactory one. This is the reason we are merging these into a common structure so as to improve rail maintenance and rail safety.

Regarding the particular incident you’re speaking about, we have to ascertain exactly what happened there. However, there is a general improvement in expenditure on rail infrastructure and rail safety, which is an important aspect.

We are facing some very special problems. Those of you who are familiar with the commuter rail system in Gauteng, in particular, around Johannesburg, will know that all too often we go through large informal settlements, and this has created a number of problems for us, which we have to begin to address.

Mr S B FARROW: Madam Deputy Speaker, it’s a pity that the Minister of Transport is not here, but hopefully between the clustered Ministries of Ministers Erwin and Manuel they’ll be able to help me with this one. You were starting to lead into railway issues. I just wanted to follow up on the recent revelations by Minister Manuel in regard to the cost of the Gautrain, which is part, I assume, of commuter transport, where he indicated that this project was going to cost nearly R20 billion.

Conservative calculations that were done at the time, when it was still running at R7 billion, were that there was going to be a level of subsidy, which would have to go into that project, the same way it goes into buses and rail anyway, to the tune of about R1,9 billion a year. Accordingly, the department’s budget only subsidises, as I said, buses and rail to about R4,7 billion. If the Gautrain project goes ahead, how does he intend to subsidise the Gautrain, when taxis, which are used by 60% of the commuters, are not?

Also, does he believe that the Gautrain service will in any way benefit and be affordable to our poorer communities? And if not, does he think that the R20 billion to be spent on a single-line service of 60 kilometres, as in the case of the Gautrain, might not be better spent on improving the existing Metrorail services in that particular area, which is currently under his control anyway? Thank you.

The MINISTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Madam Deputy Speaker, I think the hon member “tata machance”, but I’m not sure that he can “tata mamillions” here. [Laughter.] So I really think that you’re stretching the matter a little bit; that’s a completely new question, requiring the Minister of Transport to apply his mind to it. I’m sure the Minister of Finance will help him. So I’d suggest that you put that question on the Question Paper for the future. Thank you very much.

Prince N E ZULU: Deputy Speaker, we are not very sure of the support the Minister of Transport got this month in his campaign on the use of taxis. However, what we are sure of is that the Minister’s campaign on the use of public transport raised awareness in the minds of many road users in that government takes an interest in this mode of transport.

Now the question is: Does the Minister of Transport contemplate another road show before the start of the December month, which includes the Christmas period, and which in some circles is called “carnage month”?

The MINISTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Madam Deputy Speaker, I can’t give a specific response, but I’m almost certain that through the Arrive Alive Campaign and the extra effort that we put in around that month, the Minister will be very, very active. I’m sure he did get a lot of support on the car-free day. On my way to an appointment in a car, I felt very guilty.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: And so you should!

    Progress in achieving Growth and Development Summit target on
                            unemployment

1. Mr C M Lowe (DA) asked the Minister of Labour:

   (1) Whether his department is on track in meeting the 2003 Growth and Development Summit target of halving unemployment by 2014; if not, (a) why not and (b) what steps will be taken to address the problem; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (2) what is the unemployment figure which (a) has been used for the purposes of responding to this question and (b) will be used to measure the success or failure of this endeavour in 2014? N2201E

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Madam Deputy Speaker, the implementation of the Growth Development Summit is not a matter only for the Department of Labour, it is also a matter for all government departments, organised labour, business and community organisations. They all say in one voice: We are on track.

Mr C M LOWE: Hon Minister, you can do better than that. With respect, sir, you may well be right about everybody being responsible, but you, sir, are the Minister of Labour and it is your job to create the jobs. The fact is that if you look at every labour force survey that has been conducted in the last two years we have got between four million and eight million South Africans still unemployed. Nothing has changed, nowhere is there any evidence of the between 800 000 and 1 600 000 new jobs that need to be created every year if we are to meet that target. So, with respect, sir, I must ask whether you are accurate in the information you are putting before us.

The only way to seriously tackle unemployment, Mr Minister, is to remove the artificial constraints that prevent the efficient functioning of the labour market. You know that, sir, and I know that. Now, in order to be able to hire you have to be able to fire in South Africa.

Now, do you not agree with the concerns recently expressed by your predecessor, Governor Tito Mboweni, namely that there are a number of negative unintended consequences arising from the labour laws that have been promulgated and that the time has come to consider amending those laws so as to address those negative consequences; thereby we can create those half a million to one million new jobs every year and get back on track.

With respect, sir, I do not believe that your answer is good enough and I do not believe it is good enough to say it is the responsibility of everyone here. It is your responsibility to lead it and we are way behind. What are you going to do? Thank you, Madam Speaker.

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Even your remarks are not good enough for me. As an old teacher, my friend, I say you must go back to school.

On page 77 of the Nedlac report which was tabled in Parliament, which I hope the hon member has read, it says that there are four themes: one theme is more jobs, better jobs and decent work for all. On the 2004 performance it tells you that over 500 jobs have been created in the economy whilst not all of them were as a direct result of the GDS intervention. It tells you that. It is on page 77, my brother.

Expanded Public Works targets are being exceeded. This is on page 77 of the same report. You can go to the next theme, sir: “Addressing The Investment Challenge”. Here the report says that the public finance and monetary policy chamber has agreed on the need to identify the investments and institutions that are affected by this agreement. It goes further to say that we need to address the identified bottlenecks. It is on page 77 of this report. You must go back to school, sir, please. [Applause.]

Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Madam Speaker, hopefully the Minister will not refer me to the report and send me back to school, but my question, Minister, is, as follows:

Kamuva nje sibonile oCosatu bebhikisha bethi babhikishela ukusweleka kwemisebenzi. Babuye basho bathi laphayana ukumbiwa kwegolide kwehle kwaba seminyakeni yawo-1931. Mhlawumbe uNgqongqoshe angasho lapha eNdlini ukuthi le mibhikisho yena uyibuka kanjani nokusweleka kwemisebenzi ezimayini kuhamba kanjani, angasiza yini ukudala imisebenzi uNgoqoshe njengoba iCosatu isho ukuthi akudalwe imisebenzi? Ngiyabonga. (Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.)

[Recently, we have witnessed Cosatu protesting against unemployment and job losses. They also maintain that gold production has decreased, as happened in 1931. May the Minister address this house on how he views these demonstrations and job shortages in the mining sector? Can he also help in creating jobs, as Cosatu is saying that jobs must be created? Thank you.]

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: I am going to stick to the question because the right to strike is enshrined in the Constitution in Chapter 2, the Bill of Rights, therefore I am not going to answer that question because the hon members here passed that Constitution.

In May 2004, sir, the Department of Public Works launched the Expanded Public Works Programme to cushion the negative effects of unemployment and to impart relevant skills to potential work seekers.

Although the Expanded Public Works Programme is seen as a short-term mechanism and the primary objective is to increase employability, to provide work experience, which a number of young people in this country need, and create value chains through entrepreneurship. Up to the fourth quarter, that is in the period from April 2004 to 31 March 2005, a total number of 223 400 gross work opportunities and 174 800 net work opportunities were created through the Expanded Public Works Programme.

Allow Cosatu to march. We will continue to create the jobs. [Applause.]

Ms N D NGCENGWANE: Madam Deputy Speaker, South Africa has demonstrated its commitment by being a signatory to the Millennium Development Goals Agenda through the 2003 Growth and Development Summit.

Despite the agreement or declaration signed by the stakeholders, eg Nedlac, the ANC-led government also committed itself to meeting these goals. The key role of the Department of Labour and the government is to create an enabling environment for job creation such as skills development.

Some people believe that there is only one silver bullet to solve the problems of unemployment in this country. Could the Minister elaborate more on further initiatives taken by his Department to create this enabling environment for job creation in this country?

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Hon member, we know for a fact that in implementing the Growth and Development Summit targets there are glaring gaps. The Nedlac director even said that we needed to “debottleneck the bottlenecks”. I heard this for the first time from him. I learn every day, unlike the hon member Lowe who does not want to learn today.

We need to improve the rate of reporting as far as employment is concerned because for the Growth and Development Summit to create these jobs we need to advance questions of equity. We need to develop the skills of this nation. We need to create economic opportunities for all our people and extend services. All these are part of the Growth and Development Summit agreement, and action plans are now in place.

There is a committee that is dealing with all these matters but we must admit that there are, however, a couple of areas where new challenges have emerged and those challenges are being attended to. In fact, the Deputy President of this country, Her Excellency Phumzile Mlambo-Ngcuka, this year, has come up with another remedy and that remedy is to say we want our economy to grow and the reason is simple: We need to grow the economy and address the question of skills in order to create more jobs. That is why I confidently say we are on track; otherwise there is no need for us to become revolutionaries if we are able to say we are on track. We are on track, my brother. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Lowe, fortunately there was another slot for a question.

Mr C M LOWE: Thank you very much indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker. Mr Minister, thank you very much for your comprehensive reply to my question. Could I just ask that next time around you actually answer the question that I posed to you?

Before I ask the question again, Minister, I just think it is important that you look at your own statistics. I have gone through the labour force survey, every year from 2003, which is put together by Stats SA. Nowhere there, sir, is there any indication of the half a million to one and a half million new jobs every year that we need to create over and above the new entrants to the market place. It simply is not there. I can see the Minister of Finance sitting up, but the fact is they are not there. We are not creating the jobs that we should. We are, at least, a million jobs behind where we should be.

My question to you, Minister, was whether you agree with the concerns that have been expressed by your predecessor, Governor Tito Mboweni, who is the previous Minister of Labour and has now started saying alarm bells are ringing. There is something wrong with our labour laws. They are not doing the work they need to do to create new jobs. Mr Minister, do you agree with those concerns, yes or no? Can we do something to amend those labour laws to create those one million new jobs that we need?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, Minister! If we have a new question altogether that is not related to the initial question, you are not compelled to respond to it but if you feel like doing that, please go ahead.

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: No, I want to remind him, because firstly he cannot read, that he needs adult basic education and training. He does not even understand his own question.

His own question is about whether we are on track in meeting the 2003 Growth and Development Summit. I do not see Tito Mboweni here either. So there is something wrong with the hon member and I believe we must do something about it. The Chief Whips of the DA must do something about this hon member. [Laughter.] [Applause.]

             Statistics on foreign immigrant employment

1. Ms S Rajbally (MF) asked the Minister of Labour:

   (1) What are the statistics in respect of foreign immigrant employment in the various labour categories in South Africa;

   (2) whether, in recruiting people into the labour market, preference is given to South African youth, who have been trained and educated in skills and professions, over foreign immigrants; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? N1932E

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Based on statistics, we don’t deal with this matter; however, we did some research for the hon member. Based on the statistics provided by the Department of Home Affairs a total of 4 185 work permits were granted and 11 686 immigration permits were issued between 2003 to 2004; that is in their 2003-04 annual report.

Also based on the Census 2001 results, a total of 217 189, excluding unspecified migrant workers, was reported. From this 32 861 were employed in the agriculture, hunting, forestry and fishing sector; 62 649 were in mining and quarrying; 32 142 were in the wholesale and retail trade sector; the rest of the migrant workers are spread across other economic sectors. For quick reference: a table is provided and, unfortunately, I am not going to read the table here; the hon member will get the table.

Mr M M SWATHE: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. There are tens of thousands of jobs and vacancies for people with skills, needed by both the government and the private sector. Why are you not producing youth with skills and reducing the high rate of youth unemployment? What are you doing about that, hon Minister? Thank you. [Interjections.]

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Youth unemployment is one of our biggest challenges in South Africa. Research has indicated that a majority of youth have reported lack of skills and qualifications as the main reasons for not being employed. They also say that even though they may be qualified, they lack experience. At one imbizo that I attended they pleaded with me to open a university of experience. [Laughter.]

However, we are expected to implement the Skills Development Act in order to improve the skills of South Africans who are unemployed and underemployed by placing them in learnership and apprenticeship programmes, and I am sure that the hon member is aware of these programmes. In July 2005 we recorded 153 738 unemployed youth below the age of 35 years who are enrolled in learnership and apprenticeship programmes as a result of these interventions. We hope that these learners could be easily absorbed into the labour market when they get to completion.

Mnu M J G MZONDEKI: Siyabulela, Sekela-Somlomo. Mphathiswa, kubonakala ngathi ubuphendula imibuzo emibini. Mna ndingathanda ukuva ukuba ingaba ikho na indlela ejolise ngqo ekuqesheni ulutsha. (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)

[Mr M J G MZONDEKI: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Hon Minister, it seems you were answering two questions. I would personally like to know whether there is a programme specially designed to ensure employment of young persons.]

The question I would like you to respond to, hon Minister, is whether the Setas are doing well enough to target learnerships that would enable the young people who go through these learnerships to be able to be absorbed by the labour market? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: According to the draft National Skills Development Strategy Implementation Report for 2004–05, the Services Seta, for example, is still leading with the highest number of learners at 13 600 against a target of 4 148. This is followed by the Metal and Engineering Seta, popularly known as Merseta, at 11 268 against a target of 8 831; the Health and Welfare Seta at 7 988 against a target 2 000; and the Information Technology Seta at 6 731 against a target of 1 500.

There are Setas that did not meet their targets. However, I am convinced and confident that we will be able to ensure that Setas attend to the matter of young people because it is very important. The whole of this House will regret it one day if we do not attend to the plight of young people. [Applause.]

       Adherence to Expanded Public Works Programme guidelines

1. Ms P S Sekgobela (ANC) asked the Minister of Public Works:

   What processes need to be put in place to ensure that all municipal infrastructure grant (MIG) projects adhere to the Expanded Public Works Programme’s guidelines in order to positively contribute to the challenges of poverty alleviation and job creation? N2190E

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Chairperson, the most important process that will increase compliance is an auditing process that detects noncompliance and . . .

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Minister, please move closer to the microphone.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Chairperson, the most important process that will increase compliance is an auditing process that detects noncompliance and we will demand that officials account for this lack of compliance. In this regard we have developed auditing procedures together with the Auditor- General that will enable this office to audit compliance on both the municipal and provincial infrastructure grant.

An audit of the provinces was conducted in the last financial year, specifically on compliance in the Expanded Public Works Programme. However, the Auditor-General indicated that this requires a significant amount of resources and as such it will be difficult to conduct separate Expanded Public Works Programme audits of all 284 municipalities. Therefore discussions are under way with the Auditor-General to make this part of the normal auditing procedures, which they conduct annually.

At the same time, the department is conducting training programmes for all municipal officials to enable them to adjust their projects so that they are in line with the Expanded Public Works Programme requirements.

The department also provides technical support to municipalities to assist them with aligning their municipal infrastructure grant, or MIG, projects with the Expanded Public Works Programme. An intervention that will therefore speed up the process will be to grant additional funds for those municipalities that comply and reduce MIG funds for those who do not.

Ms P S SEKGOBELA: Hon Deputy Speaker, what are the details of the programme mentioned by the Minister that relate to the building capacity of the municipalities?

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: The programme itself involves the training of local government officials for labour-intensive methods of construction. This is an initiative to train local government officials in these methods. Training is being done at NQF-levels 5 and 7 in labour-intensive methods of construction. This initiative is carried out jointly with the local government Seta; the SA Local Government Association; the Construction, Education and Training Authority; and the Department of Provincial and Local Government.

Funding for the training of officials is provided by the local government Seta, while the co-ordination of the different stakeholders involved is being done by the Department of Public Works. This initiative aims to train 1,2 million officials by 31 March 2006. This initiative is progressing well and by 31 October 2005, 1 092 officials had been trained across the country. Of this number, 602 were assessed and 564 were deemed to be competent.

Mr J P I BLANCHÉ: Madam Minister, the reason why infrastructure grants are needed, is because local government fails to maintain the infrastructure. The reason why municipal infrastructure has fallen into a state of disrepair is because of ANC policy, where competent officials were replaced by cadres who earn exorbitantly high salaries, such as the case of the Beaufort West city manager. They earn even more than the State President, and those who left the administration have been rehired at double the cost as consultants.

The ANC policy of centralised local government authorities has added to this chaos. Would it not have been better to review the ANC policies that caused the chaos rather than fixing it with a grant? [Interjections.]

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Chairperson, I do not think that this debate needs to be politicised, for we are talking about a structure of government, which works according to rules and regulations. If that structure of government were to deviate from rules and regulations, a situation far more chaotic than that which Mr Blanché is talking about would be the result.

In any situation there will always be the stray dog, and we cannot say that a whole nation does not know what it is doing just because of one particular person who does things differently. [Interjections.] If he says this is happening countrywide, he must send me a detailed list of all those places where this is happening. [Interjections.][Applause.]

 Adherence to foreign procurement laws by SA state-owned enterprises

1. Dr P J Rabie (DA) asked the Minister for Public Enterprises: (1) What is the policy of the Government regarding South African state-owned enterprises breaking foreign procurement laws in order to win contracts;

   (2) whether, in the light of recent media reports, any steps have been taken to ensure that state-owned arms manufacturer Denel is not implicated in further international corruption scandals; if not, why not; if so, what steps?

                     N2208E
   

The MINISTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Madam Deputy Speaker, it is quite clear that with regard to the policy of government at state enterprises, their officials, as with any other citizen, must comply not only with the rules and law in South Africa, but must also clearly comply with any foreign jurisdiction in regard to the conduct of business in any sector.

In the event that these rules or laws are contravened, we would obviously take action and quite clearly, from Denel’s point of view, particularly in the current period of restructuring of Denel, we are taking some extra steps to ensure that procedures are being complied with in all the countries within which we attempt to market our products.

Dr P J RABIE: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, in a very thorough submission to the Portfolio Committee on Public Enterprises on 18 October, the chief executive officer of Denel mentioned that there is a possible loss of R1,6 million, which will be in this particular financial year.

Hon Minister, seen in the light of our very unacceptably high rate of unemployment and our high degree of poverty in this country, do you think it is right and fair for taxpayers’ money to be used to foot the shortfalls of parastatals?

Are you thinking of putting a deadline to the losses of certain parastatals, or are you contemplating selling off or privatising the nonprofit-making sectors, especially Denel?

The MINISTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: It does look a little as if the DA is playing the lottery today, because that seems to be somewhat of an extension of the original question. However, I am prepared to answer it, as he is a nice, gentle person, the hon member.

These are always very difficult choices; I mean, there are many thousands of people employed in Denel and in the defence-related industries. It is an extremely important technology base for our country and our economy, and our response to the losses is precisely what the chief executive officer outlined.

We are proposing a turnaround strategy, which we believe will be successful, as was indicated in that presentation, but a turnaround strategy, in fact, involves forming partnerships with private companies and other companies that are also state-owned around the world. So, we are not taking a dogmatic position, we are attempting to ensure that we capture the tremendous capacity and potential of large parts of Denel, and convert it into a sustainable enterprise. As he indicated, realistically, that cannot be done overnight; it’s not possible.

Quite clearly, government would not countenance a situation of repeated and endless losses, but we are of the view that we can turn the enterprise around, that we can do it more effectively as the single shareholder in the holding company, but that we would bring in partners into a number of the underlying activities of Denel.

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Adjunkspeaker, ek wil vir die agb Minister sê dat ek sy benadering betreffende Denel verwelkom. Ons moet ook besef dat daar ‘n enorme hoeveelheid kundigheid in die Denel-groep is, wat tot voordeel van Suid-Afrika aangewend kan word, nie noodwendig in die vervaardiging van krygstuie nie, maar ook in verband met ander aspekte.

My opvolgvraag aan die agb Minister is, gesien in die lig van sy antwoord in terme van die moontlike oortreding van reëls en so meer, of die agb Minister bereid is om ‘n kommissie van ondersoek aan te stel na die gebeure met betrekking tot Indië waar daar bewerings gemaak word dat daar onreëlmatighede plaasgevind het; en, indien hy bereid is om so ‘n kommissie aan te stel, wanneer hy dié kommissie sal aanstel? (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Deputy Speaker, I want to say to the hon Minister that I welcome his approach insofar as Denel is concerned. We must also realise that an immense amount of expertise exists in the Denel group that can be utilised to the benefit of South Africa, not necessarily in the manufacture of armaments, but in other respects as well.

My follow-up question to the hon Minister is, in view of his answer regarding the potential violation of rules and so forth, whether the Minister is prepared to appoint a commission of inquiry into the incidents regarding India, since allegations are being made that irregularities have occurred there; and if he is prepared to appoint such a commission, when will this commission be appointed?]

The MINISTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Hon member, I would agree with your comment that there is tremendous capacity, technological, scientific and engineering capacity, in Denel. It can play, and will play – I’m quite sure – an extremely important role in many of our industries, particularly in aerospace, avionics and various forms of LAN systems; and this does have spin-off effects for the rest of the economy.

With regard to the second part of your question: I’m not going to appoint a commission of inquiry. It is completely unnecessary. This is a matter before the courts in India and therefore there will be detailed submissions that would have to be dealt with in connection with those actions. In the process, both between the Indian central bureau of investigation and our activities, we have full access to the information.

This is a matter for litigation and we are contesting that these regulations were, in fact, violated and, as has been indicated, at government level we are in contact with our counterparts. Accordingly, I will not make further comments on this matter, and it would be pointless and wrong to try and enter into a public debate on a matter that is being dealt with by due process in both countries.

So, a commission of inquiry is not necessary; it would be counterproductive and we will continue to deal with the matter as I’ve indicated. I’m quite certain that we have already ascertained what has happened. The issue in dispute is whether that was or was not in violation of the regulations in India and, internally, whether the persons concerned were fully in compliance with Denel policy, and under what conditions. These are matters being addressed; there is no need for a commission of inquiry.

Mr C L GOLOLO: Thank you, Minister Erwin, for your very comprehensive response. In as far as I know, Denel, the state-owned entity, has never been implicated in any form of corruption, or broken any law in its procurement dealings, both in this country or abroad. In view of this, Minister, could you please clarify the matter for us?

The MINISTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Firstly, as I’ve indicated, hon member, quite clearly if there are people in contravention of our law we will have to act on that matter and use the correct legal procedures. The same would apply in the event of that occurring in another legal jurisdiction.

I should make it clear, as I have done in my earlier answer, that the issue at stake in India is whether Denel was entitled to, or did use what are called agents in a particular contract. This is regulatory law; it is administrative law, to the extent that it is law. So, these are complex matters and I would not automatically take some of the wild speculation that is taking place in the media as fact.

The facts will be established through proper processes, as I’ve indicated earlier, and I’m persuaded that we have a case that we can legitimately and justifiably put forward for what happened there. To the extent that there are any procedural matters that are wrong in Denel, we have acted on that already.

Mr H J BEKKER: Madam Deputy Speaker, I have been partly covered by the hon Gololo in his question, but I just want to thank the hon Minister for the detailed explanation.

I fully agree and concur that the courts should settle this matter; that there is no need for any further investigations. We have been totally and fully briefed in the portfolio committee, and therefore that part falls away.

Now, I would just like to ask the Minister whether under these circumstances he would agree that new management – that is the new management that we technically have with Denel – should be given a chance and that they really try and see what they can do to bring this important facility of South Africa back on track, and, particularly, to make it economically viable? If there is anything more in terms of the economic viability of Denel, could he give us any further indication of this?

The MINISTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: I think that the briefing that was given by Mr Shaun Liebenberg, the chief executive officer, and under the guidance of Dr Sibusiso Sibisi, the chairperson of the new board, shows that in the period of time since we have seized on the severity of the problems in Denel we’ve been able indicate the need for a new strategy that is a different approach to how Denel should be structured, and that has been set out in some detail.

We would not attempt to be a full systems integrator for markets outside of South Africa unless we can find a partner to do that, but inside the country we would attempt to be a systems integrator. I am also very pleased to say that my colleague and I, the Minister of Defence, and the Secretary for Defence, the head of Armscor, the head of Denel and my own director- general, constitute an ongoing task team where we are further addressing the total environment of the defence industries and the defence procurement programmes.

So, I believe we are taking the correct steps. It is not a totally new management; we have a new chief executive officer and there are many of the managers of Denel who are still there – very much still there – being pulled together and given a new set of work programmes, new directions to take. But, it is important that we keep this capacity there. I think anyone who had been present at the roll out of the first Grippen, which is being manufactured for the SA Air Force, would have had a sense of the impact this highly sophisticated modern aircraft can and will have on the air force and defence-related industries, and it was wonderful to see our young pilots - men, women, black, white – being exposed to this extremely modern technology and all the technical support that it needs.

So, the modernisation of our Defence Force and the defence industry is an exciting challenge that, I think, we should all relish. It’s important for our economy.

Effect of economic growth on job opportunities and social development

1. Prince N E Zulu (IFP) asked the Minister of Trade and Industry:

   (1) Whether the growth in the economy will increase job opportunities and improve social development; if not, why not;

   (2) whether rural development and youth unemployment will be given priority consideration; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (3) whether labour and business will also benefit in this regard; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (4) whether he will make a statement on the matter? N1948E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Dr R H Davies): Madam Chairperson, our view is that what we need in South Africa is a higher rate of economic growth that is developmental in character and capable of resulting in massive job creation, redistribution and the promotion of sustainable livelihoods to lift people in the second economy out of conditions of poverty and marginalisation.

A rise in the rate of economic growth is an objective, but we need to recognise that the growth per se does not necessarily automatically translate into job creation, nor does it guarantee a redress of economic inequalities inherited from apartheid. The Deputy President has therefore established a task team to develop an Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative, which will seek to promote a growing economy that benefits all.

This initiative aims to create the conditions to halve unemployment and poverty by the year 2014 by optimising public investment; creating a better environment for private sector growth; and, addressing specific barriers to growth. Some of the components aimed at addressing barriers include improved human resource development; creating a developmental macroeconomic environment; sectoral investment strategies; second economy interventions including support for micro, small and collective enterprises; and, governance and delivery issues.

The answer to the second part of the question is that the Department of Trade and Industry is well aware of the challenges for rural development, as well as the high rate of youth unemployment. We are currently in the process of developing a national industrial policy as part of a comprehensive government intervention to achieve our stated goals of growth, employment and equity. A more equitable spread of economic activities and resources, particularly to marginalised areas with significant economic potential, will form an integral part of this strategy. Currently, the Community Private-Public Partnership Programme - housed within the Small Enterprise Development Agency - is one important intervention.

As statistics indicate that youth unemployment constitutes 75% of the unemployed, the new industrial policy will give considerable attention to youth employment. The industrial policy will also be aligned to other government initiatives in this regard.

The answer to the third part of the question is that the creation of social partnerships has always been an important element in the policy-making process in South Africa. Currently, a number of platforms of engagement exist to allow for stakeholder participation. This includes Nedlac, the presidential working groups and the DTI’s Industry Forum. Business and labour are also interactive with the Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative and national industry policy processes.

The answer to the fourth part of the question is that as we are currently in the process of developing a national industrial policy. Government will be in a position to make a comprehensive statement on the matter as soon as the policy is finalised. Thank you.

Prince N E ZULU: Madam Chair, thank you, hon Minister, for your comprehensive and well-balanced answer, which touches all aspects of the question. Perhaps on a very light note, one could say that the economic growth, which we all know is quite a complex challenge, depends on many factors and that one of these factors is capital. Can the Minister therefore comment or expand on how capital as capital is going to help our economy reach the set target within the set timeframe; namely capital as capital, helping the economy to reach our target within the set timeframe?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Dr R H Davies): Thank you, Madam Chair. I’m tempted to say that on a “heavier note”, I don’t know whether the hon member means capital as a thing or capital as a social relation. So, I am a bit constrained. [Laughter.] If he means capital as investment resources, then the aim of the accelerated growth strategy is clearly to accelerate the rate of public investment in the economy - that is the fundamental aspect of it - but also to create conditions to try to increase the rate of investment by the private sector, partly by relating to the public investment programmes. That’s clearly part of it.

If he means capital as a social relation, well obviously the process of engagement around both the Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative, as well as the national industrial policy process, is one that is involved. As was earlier in reply, these are interactions with key stakeholders, including private business. Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr S J NJIKELANA: Chairperson, thank you very much for your comprehensive response, hon Deputy Minister. Obviously, recently, we have just been updated by hon Minister Trevor Manuel that the reforms of the past decade are bearing fruit. Hence we are talking of a growing economy. He further emphasised that we are investing in a shared future and jointly confronting challenges as South Africans from various sectors. On that note, Deputy Minister, could you further elaborate on the extent to which, and in what way, the DTI’s strategy and plan will advance the notion of the Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative now that it is publicly acknowledged that our economy is growing steadfastly?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Dr R H Davies): Madam Chairperson, I think that the picture is one wherein the rates of economic growth have definitely improved and they are at levels that are higher than they have been for the last three decades, and this is a significant achievement.

However, the rates of growth are still too low to create sufficient employment and too low to absorb all the productive capacity in the country; hence the aim is to raise the growth rates yet again and also to do this in a way that is shared and which reaches the masses of the people in the country.

I think the point about the Deputy President’s initiative is that it is actually an initiative that is bringing together all the efforts of all the different components of government. But, I think, the specific contribution of the DTI, or one of the specific contributions, is the national industrial strategy. We are in the process of finalising a document which we hope to present to stakeholders in Nedlac and other forums before the end of the year, which will be aimed at producing a more robust industrial policy. We are going to be building on initiatives of customised sector programmes that are already under way.

But the answer, as I initially indicated, is that we will be in a position to make a full statement on that once this work is completed. I can’t just report that this work is pretty well advanced and well on track. I think we will be able to make a statement in the not too distant future. Thank you.

Mr I O DAVIDSON: Madam Chairperson, Mr Deputy Minister, it is pleasing to hear your response to that question because, funny enough, you indeed made the very points that hon member Lowe made in respect of the type of growth that is needed to reduce the jobless queues. But, what I want to ask the hon Deputy Minister is this - and I don’t want to get into debate as to how long those queues are and how many new jobs are being created, but suffice it to say that I think wherever many jobs are being created we need to, in fact, double that amount - I wonder if the Deputy Minister would indeed lean on the hon Minister of Finance in this regard?

Our tax system generally grants incentives for new capital investments by way of capital allowances. But, funny enough, when it comes to the investment in human capital we don’t offer such allowances and I wonder whether, in fact, you would lean on the Minister of Finance to allow incentives by way of allowances for investment in new jobs?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Dr R H Davies): Well, I think that there may be an apparent agreement with the hon Lowe only on one issue, and that is that we actually need to create more jobs. But I think that the way Mr Lowe thinks we can go about it and the way we think we can go about it are diametrically opposed. That is about as far as we go.

What I would say is that the question of incentives is a critical issue. I think the industrial policy process, building on the approach that is already evident in the customised sector processes, is saying two things. It is saying first of all that we need to design our incentives much more around the concrete needs of particular sectors that we are prioritising. These could include incentives around a range of issues. We have to, of course, be careful that we are complying with WTO rules, which do not allow discrimination and things of that sort. But I think we would be looking for those incentives to emerge from customised sector processes that involve discussions with those stakeholders.

The other thing that I think was important is that we would see incentives as being more crafted around specific needs, but also more conditional around performance by stakeholders. That is the direction in which we would want to move. Whether they would involve particular incentives for training and human resource issues, I think that is something that would emerge from the sector processes themselves. Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

        Progress regarding regional electricity distributors

1. Mr C T Molefe (ANC) asked the Minister of Minerals and Energy:

   (a) What progress has been made regarding regional electricity distributors (REDs) and (b) what are the (i) key challenges and (ii) constraints of the process? N2186E

The MINISTER OF MINERALS AND ENERGY: The restructuring of the electricity distribution industry in general and the establishment of rates constitute an integral part of government’s overall vision of accelerating service delivery in order to eradicate poverty, achieve sustainable socioeconomic development and thereby build a better life for all of our people.

In terms of progress made thus far regarding regional electricity distributors’ rates, the first rates were established in July 2005, and the remaining rates would be rolled out according to a road map that has a target of three years. Still, in terms of progress, project plans for the various milestones have been developed, and ongoing stakeholder involvement is in progress, with co-operative agreements being signed. Working groups have been established to deal with all issues, financial or technical.

Coming to the key challenges that are facing the rates at this stage is the fact, I think, that while the end-state RED model has been agreed to - which envisages that each metro will form its own RED entity in its area of jurisdiction, and also the addition of a national RED, which should be established by June 2007 - the key challenge here is getting the institutional framework in place to enable these entities to deliver these services as envisaged.

On the issue of constraints facing REDs: I would say, a constraint presently is the harmonisation of REDs objectives with a constitutional and local government legislative framework. We hope that the EDI restructuring Bill will enable us to overcome these constraints.

Mr M H MATLALA: Thank you, hon Chair. Hon Minister, how would we ensure greater integration between spatial planning for electricity distribution and other important spatial initiatives like the metro-led IDPs and the provincial development plans?

The MINISTER OF MINERALS AND ENERGY: I think the very decision by Cabinet to say that, in terms of the metro REDs, a metro RED is supposed to cover the whole metro, takes into account the issues that the hon member has raised.

It is also important to mention that EDI restructuring is part and parcel of the municipalitie’s IDPs, because as they plan their electricity roll out, and as they look at the electricity needs, they continuously feed into and refer to this process of ours of restructuring. In that way, the spatial development challenges are being addressed. Thank you.

Adv H C SCHMIDT: RED 1, which was supposed to be a regional-based RED for the whole of the Western Province consists currently only of the Cape Town City Council.

The personnel transferred from the Cape Town City Council and Eskom as well as the ring-fencing of assets and other functions will only be completed during the course of next year, nearly one year after the first RED was introduced, haphazardly. This clearly indicates a fiasco waiting to happen. What do you intend doing about this, hon Minister? The MINISTER OF MINERALS AND ENERGY: When RED 1 was established, it was envisaged that there would only be six REDs in the country. We have now decided that the new approach will be six metro REDs and one national RED. So, all the areas that do not yet form part of metro RED 1, which is the metro RED in Cape Town, are going to be, in time, incorporated into the RED, save those that will fall under the area of the national RED.

Obviously, a major restructuring of this nature involves a whole lot of players. There are major implications in terms of transfer of staff, transfer of assets, and ensuring that those assets are accounted for, when these new REDs are formed and take over from Eskom.

Regarding all those issues, what I say is that as we move forward, we are going to decide on them, to see what is the best institutional mechanism to ensure that these new REDs deliver the services as envisaged.

Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Hon Minister, not being a member of the portfolio committee, I am not au fait with some of the issues in this field. During my normal constituency work around places like Pongola and Empangeni I came across a situation where new applications have been put in abeyance by these regional distributors.

The reason given is that there is not enough - hopefully I am using the correct terminology here – generation; that these regional distributors are in the state of concluding agreements with countries like Mozambique, to supply enough power. Is the Minister aware of such situations and if she is, how far have these agreements gone?

The MINISTER OF MINERALS AND ENERGY: The Minister for Public Enterprises might correct me here, but as South Africa we have had, all these years, an excess supply of energy.

It is envisaged that some time in the future, maybe in 2008, we might run out of the energy we need as a county. Presently, I am not aware that we have run out or run short of energy, and that we are waiting for electricity generated from somewhere else.

What I can explain is that in the process of trying to transfer the electrification money from the Department of Minerals and Energy to the municipal infrastructure grant, which is the MIC under the Department of Provincial and Local Government, there have been delays caused by the fact that Eskom is no longer going to look to us for the payment of whatever work they used to do. That is what has caused a delay in many of the plans that had already been decided upon, and that are not being implemented in terms of electrification. And as soon as those hurdles have been dealt with, we are hoping that there will be electrification of those identified plans.

From my information, it is not yet a shortage of supply, but just a question of an institutional mechanism of moving the responsibility from DME to DPLG. Thank you.

Mr M SWART: Hon Minister, the REDs will present a problem especially now with the new idea of REDs for the rural areas only and the metros being separate. What is the idea because I don’t know whether this has been communicated to municipalities throughout the country? What is the effect going to be on the profitability of the municipalities, and what is the effect going to be on tariff structure?

When PriceWaterhouseCoopers did the initial investigations, they found that the electricity tariffs would have to increase by something like 40%, and the municipality would have to increase their rates and taxes by up to 60% to actually cover the costs of REDs.

The MINISTER OF MINERALS AND ENERGY: Well, as I have said, the end-state model has been decided upon, but there isn’t a final model of what the national RED will look like.

Our belief is that the municipalities have got in their area of jurisdiction large consumers of electricity as well as small consumers within which they can subsidise the electricity costs.

The national RED is envisaged to be financed, obviously, in part from the electricity industry itself, but also in part from allocations. That is being worked out; the tariff structure is being worked out, and the end state will obviously be decided upon by the interministerial team that has been formed between ourselves, the Department of Public Enterprises and DPLG, as well as National Treasury. Thank you.

     Effects of restructuring of agricultural training colleges

1. Mrs B M Ntuli (ANC) asked the Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs:

   (1) Whether, in the light of the restructuring of agricultural training colleges, the Department of Agriculture will keep these institutions; if not,

   (2) whether they will be transferred to the Department of Education; if so, what are the relevant details; if not,

   (3) whether any plans are in place to make these colleges centres of excellence; if so, what plans? N2187E The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Chairperson, the answer to the question by the hon member is, yes, we will keep the agricultural colleges, because they are very important to our own development and also to skills development in the agricultural sector. However, as we all know, as part of the reconfiguration of the education system, such colleges will become part of the Department of Education in the further education and training sector.

As the Department of Agriculture we are working with our counterparts in the Department of Education to look at how we could influence the curricular development, as well as monitor the performance of these institutions. There are plans in place, because as the department we have also just launched the agricultural education and training strategy, whereby we will set up a national education and training task team. Part of its task will be to propose to the Minister of Agriculture and Land Affairs the modalities for positioning the colleges as centres of excellence in their respective ecological zones. Thank you very much.

Mrs B M NTULI: Chairperson, hon Minister, in the light of the skills shortage amongst blacks in South Africa and the increasing demand for extension services by the new entrants in farming, can these institutions be used to retrain extension officers so that they can specialise in different areas of agriculture, and also train the incoming farmers? Furthermore, can these colleges also be enabled to become centres of the Agricultural Research Council for information dissemination, working with the regions or district councils to service the second economy? If yes, can this matter be treated with the necessary urgency, ukuze abantu bakwazi ukuziphumelelisa? [in order for people to be able to uplift themselves?]

The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson and hon Ma Ntuli. Indeed we do treat this matter as a matter of urgency; as you know, in our interaction with the agricultural stakeholders, particularly farmers, the issue of extension officers has been raised, as well as the quality of education that some of our extension officers have had over time.

Therefore we have agreed that part of the work of these agricultural colleges will indeed be to ensure that the kind of training that is undertaken by the colleges does improve the quality of our extension services. Also, they can be colleges where emerging farmers in particular can be trained in short courses in order to be able to undertake their work and gain the necessary skills.

It is also interesting to note, if one were to look at the Western Cape colleges, the work that Elsenburg College in particular has done and the way in which they’ve positioned themselves, they’ve actually done a lot of work in terms of training those people, particularly extension officers and farmers, who are working in the grape industry as well as in viticulture. This has been done in a way that does not necessarily compete with Stellenbosch University. As we know, some of our universities do provide agricultural sciences, but the agricultural colleges themselves will add more value by giving practical training, but also giving relevant education to the extension service. Thank you.

Mnr A H NEL: Voorsitter, ek wil net sê ek gaan my vraag in Afrikaans stel. [Tussenwerpsels.] Dankie, Minister.

Daar is geen twyfel dat ons opgeleide mense in die landbou sal nodig hê nie. Ek dink u weet waarvan ek praat. U het gister teruggekom van ’n provinsie waar al daardie probleme uitgewys is. Ons het sulke mense nodig, en vinnig. Persoonlik sou ek verkies dat die Departement van Landbou beheer oor die kolleges sal behou; maar is u seker dat die Departement van Landbou en u as Minister genoeg sê sal hê in die kurrikulum van daardie kolleges onder die nuwe stelsel? Baie dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr A H NEL: Chairperson, I would just like to inform you that I will be putting my question in Afrikaans. [Interjections.] Thank you, Minister.

There is no doubt that we will need trained people in agriculture. I think you know what I mean. You returned from a province yesterday where all of those problems were pointed out. We need such people, and fast. Personally, I would prefer the Department of Agriculture to retain control over the colleges; but are you confident that the Department of Agriculture and you as Minister will have a big enough say in the curriculum of those colleges under the new system? Thank you very much.]

The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, hon Nel. I agree with you. Indeed, I don’t think there will be a problem between ourselves and the Minister of Education in ensuring that we do contribute in terms of curricular development as a sector, because indeed the issues that will be dealt with by the agricultural colleges will actually, and must, relate to our own agricultural policy. But that does not mean they necessarily ought to be under the management of the Minister of Agriculture and Land Affairs.

I’m very happy that the national Department of Education would actually take on the responsibility of the management of such colleges, which will deal with issues of governance, but obviously our interests are to ensure that the input in those colleges will enable us to train good extension officers as well as to offer short-term courses to our farmers. Thank you.

Mr I S MFUNDISI: Chairperson, the question of learning or education in any institution goes along with communication. There have been instances where the people at these further education and training centres complained about the medium of instruction in which they were being instructed or taught. Is anything actually being done, or will it be done insofar as the two departments will have this joint responsibility to make sure that the students are taught in the language that they think they can best comprehend whatever they are being taught? Finally, what does it look like in terms of the proportion of the lecturing staff compared to the students? Are the figures compatible either way?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Madam Minister, I think the first part of the question may relate; the second one you may answer if you wish.

The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, hon Chair. Indeed, with regard to the second question I would have to do some investigation, but as you’d know, a majority of these colleges were located, some of them, in the former homelands and self-governing territories, where the issues of the levels of funding was a challenge.

So, that is an issue, in which the Minister of Education, as she deals with the entirety of the configuration of the education system in the country, is actually engaged with the Treasury department. It’s a long-term issue, obviously, that you’ll have to engage in, taking into consideration the resources that we have as a state.

But the issue relating to language, as you have put it, as communication, is indeed important, but I’m sure you appreciate that South Africa as a country has 11 official languages and others that we are still improving. I’m sure you’d appreciate that we may not be able to use all 11 languages in one institution, as we would like to. Somehow you have to find a medium of instruction.

I think the Department of Education has been engaged with this issue to find a way in which the medium of instruction that is used accommodates all the learners – it shouldn’t actually exclude anyone based on what the preference in that particular region or institution was before. So, part of transformation is to deal with those issues and find a way in which you can accommodate the best language, or languages, which can be used as medium of instruction in these institutions. Thank you.

Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Chairperson, according to the feeding scheme programme, every school is encouraged to have a garden. Would the Minister’s department, through the college, assist those schools that have gardens by sending extension officers to teach and assist them with their gardens? [Interjections.]

The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Hon Mpontshane, you know that, indeed, the question you are raising is a new question! But, as you know, one of the issues that we have been interested in as the Departments of Education, Health and Agriculture has been the issues of food security for our nation and for our people. Amongst other things it has also been of interest to us to ensure that the young people who go to our schools, particularly those who may come from disadvantaged communities and families, may at least have access to a nutritious meal once a day. I think that will be the interest that all of us as South Africans will have; not just for the children, but for the entirety of the country.

Obviously, extension services will be required, but whether the numbers that we have currently would be able to assist each and every school is another matter. It would be difficult, but there are other means of communication that don’t necessarily need the physical visits of an extension officer to a site.

We have the agricultural television in the morning, we have the radio programmes in which we also engage in teaching people practices about farming, so some of these mediums can be utilised and we hope that some of the teachers who themselves might have been trained might actually use their spare time to assist those people in the schools who are engaged in a form of gardening or some agricultural activity of sorts.

As a teacher, hon Mpontshane, I’m sure you would also be able to encourage those in the teaching profession who had done some agricultural education in our schools to be more active in assisting us to actually spread the knowledge.

                 Use of public transport by Minister

1. Mr M M Swathe (DA) asked the Minister of Transport:

   (1) Whether he made use of public transport for every work-related activity where transport was required, including transport to and from work, on 20 October 2005; if not, why not in each case; if so, (a) how many out-of-office appointments did he meet making use of public transport and (b) which modes of public transport did he use;

   (2) whether he made use of a car on that date; if so, for what purposes? N2210E

The MINISTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISES (for the Minister of Transport): Chairperson, I can tell you that my colleague, the Minister of Transport, was “baie besig” [very busy] on that day. He took a few “sho’t lefts” and he took a “draai” [turn] here and there - in a taxi all the time. [Laughter.]

I can tell the hon member what the Minister of Transport did: He was here, there and everywhere. He met the MEC for transport, MEC Jacobs; he had the mayor, Father Smangaliso Mkhatshwa, with him. Late in the afternoon he did go by car to Johannesburg for a late meeting, but I think he had the blessing of Father Mkhatshwa. [Laughter.] Mr M M SWATHE: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Minister, in the light of the facts that the Minister of Transport is not in the House and that the Minister even admitted that he never used public transport on 20 October 2005, what commitment does he and his fellow Cabinet Ministers have to transport month? Did his whole Cabinet use public transport for the whole month, or only on 20 October 2005? If not, why not? Thank you. [Interjections.]

The MINISTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Well, the answer is very simple. For practical reasons, we didn’t. I think we are very committed to improving public transport, as I outlined in my previous answer. And, I think, if we had the Gautrain we would probably all go back and forth between Pretoria and Johannesburg by public transport as well.

Mr B L MASHILE: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, now that the car-free day campaign is over, are there any lessons that we have learnt and experiences that we can share with this House? If there are any, how will they inform future campaigns? Thank you.

The MINISTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Well, I can’t really give you a detailed reply to that. It would be more appropriate for the Minister of Transport to do that. But I think as the chairperson of the committee, the hon Cronin, indicated, we should see this in a broader context of improving public transport in general and making sure that it works efficiently in our cities and rural areas. So I’m certain that the Minister of Transport will, at an appropriate time, make further statements on this. It’s not possible for me to do that. I can announce, however, at his own request, that the Minister of Labour actually used a horse on that day.

      Investigations into use of fronting in securing BEE deals

1. Prof E S Chang (IFP) asked the Minister of Trade and Industry:

   (1) Whether his department has launched any investigations into the use of fronting in securing black economic empowerment (BEE) deals; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

   2) (2) whether his department is considering any measures to stopfronting through its various manifestations such as shareholder rights, voting rights, racial representation and name changes; if not, why not; if so, what measures?

   N2050E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Dr R H Davies): Madam Chairperson, the answer to the first part of the question is: The DTI is fully aware of fronting complaints and also that fronting constitutes fraud. However, currently, there is no clear and well-shared definition of fronting, neither of its interpretation in the economy. In order to deal with the existing confusion concerning the definition and interpretation of fronting, the DTI has prioritised the development of codes of good practice on broad-based black economic empowerment to, among other things, give clear guidance on this matter. The codes of good practice have been developed with, among other things, the following objectives: to identify and specify fronting practices; identify fronting risk indicators; specify the requirements for reporting on fronting; define guidelines for the determination and evaluation of fronting risk; and to specify the consequences of fronting practices.

The answer to the second part of the question is: As part of phase two of the codes of good practice, the DTI intends to issue statement 040, giving a clear definition and interpretation of what constitutes fronting. It is anticipated that phase two of the codes of good practice will be issued in mid-November 2005, in fulfilment of the public commentary process, and that the gazetting of all codes will take place early next year.

Overall, the codes will give a clear guidance on how to correctly apply and implement the principles, definitions, measurements and the elements of broad-based black economic empowerment, to ensure that enterprises do not find themselves unintentionally practising fronting.

Furthermore, the codes will recommend the development of institutional mechanisms aimed at monitoring fronting in the economy. These will include the verification of broad-based black economic empowerment credentials of enterprises. As part of their licensing requirements, verification agencies will report on instances of fronting to the department. Additionally, the department is currently engaging with the Department of Justice and with the National Treasury to develop and identify effective legislation and other institutional arrangements that can be utilised to identify, penalise and eliminate fronting in the economy. I thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Thank you, hon Deputy Minister. It is now the turn of the hon Chang . . . hon Bekker, I think.

Mr H J BEKKER: I take it as an honour that I could be referred to as such a beautiful hon member. But, on behalf of the hon Chang, I wish to thank the Deputy Minister for his reply and hope we can truly address the issue of fronting. Fronting, of whatever nature, should be rooted out and the perpetrators appropriately punished. This is nothing less than fraud and theft, since bona fide tender applicants are robbed of the contracts that they should indeed have obtained.

Furthermore, even those non-BEE tender applicants that would qualify are totally jeopardised by these BEE fronting tender applicants, albeit taking into consideration the fact that they have to overcome the discounted or loaded ratio of being, at least, about 10% cheaper on their contracts or whatever has been specified in the tender documents. I hope that the hon Minister could give us the assurance that this particular aspect, indeed, would be further investigated in future, and that strict rules would be coming forward in the document that you have quoted. I thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Dr R H Davies): I thank Prof Bekker for the statement of support, which I think is generally along the same lines as what we propose. We are also of the view, as I indicated in the answer, that fronting is fraud and an activity in which you are trying to present yourself as something that you are not, in order to gain benefits that are derived from this.

I had indicated that we intend to make statement 040 to be exactly the kind of statement that we think will be able to guide us. I also indicated that we are co-operating with other departments to make sure that those who engage in these activities are penalised. Thank you.

Ms D M RAMODIBE: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, the past policies of segregation and discrimination have left a legacy of inequality and poverty, and, in more recent decades, low economic growth. The apartheid system was heavily biased towards providing basic services to the white minority. This was done to the detriment of the black population, who were denied the opportunity to accumulate human and physical capital. These are the same people who are today used for fronting. Is the Minister comfortable that the measures that have been put in place will enable them to access funding? I thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Dr R H Davis): I think that the codes have been developed through detailed interaction with stakeholders. There is a lot of very complicated work that has gone into the codes. We think, at this stage – obviously it remains to be seen in practice – that these codes will offer a substantial step forward in terms of being able to wipe out this practice.

Of course, if it proves that people in the economy are able to get around these codes, then we have to look at them again and we will have to tighten them up. But we do believe that there is a lot of solid work that has gone into them and we think that, at least, some of the most common forms of fronting will be eliminated when these codes are fully implemented.

Mr L B LABUSCHAGNE: I welcome the Deputy Minister’s announcement of tightened codes to eradicate this scourge from our various companies regarding fronting and the effect it has had on procurement.

I think the time for the enrichment of an elite group of black ANC cronies has passed. [Interjections.] It is now imperative that we move to broad- based black economic empowerment. Will the Deputy Minister then, as part of these codes, draw up a list of persons who have benefited from narrow BEE in the past and will not be the major fronts and beneficiaries in future?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Dr R H Davies): I don’t think that the issue of fronting, as the hon member is trying to stretch the definition, is the one that was intended in the question or indeed in the other two follow-ups. I think we are talking about situations in which black people are put in nominal positions in companies where ownership rights are not really exercised by black people in order to access the benefits that accrue thereto. It’s not a question that there are cronies and people of that sort.

What I would say though is that the codes that have already been gazetted or approved by Cabinet do include an additional score for people that have not been empowered in the past. So there is an intention, even in the ownership dimension, but there are also broader dimensions, that are in direct empowerment. These will be coming up in parts of the codes, which will be published soon for comment. There is an intention that the benefits should reach more broadly into society than they have up to now.

 Contribution of Salt telescope to equity and redress in SA society

1. Mr R P Z van den Heever (ANC) asked the Minister of Science and Technology: Whether the Southern African Large Telescope (SALT) in Sutherland, which will be inaugurated on 10 November 2005, will make any contribution to equity and redress within the South African society; if so, what are the relevant details? N2196E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Madam Chair, the answer is: Yes, the SALT project will make a positive contribution to equity and redress, although one should stress that this is not its primary purpose.

The Department of Science and Technology is finalising an astronomy frontier programme. The programme is the result of a broad consultative process with the research community over the past year and will be implemented through the National Research Foundation. The astronomy frontier programme encapsulates a capacity-building programme that will utilise the technological investment to conduct cutting edge scientific research. The programme will facilitate the integration of efforts to produce a gender and race-balanced critical mass of young researchers by higher education institutions and national facilities.

The objective of the programme is to produce a substantial number of honours, masters and doctoral graduates to enhance the astronomy research base and start succession planning. This objective will be supported by the recruitment of postdoctoral fellows and senior research staff. The SALT collateral benefits programme implemented by the National Research Foundation has already had a great impact on educational development.

This programme has established two engineering bursaries to be taken up by young people from Sutherland. It has also concentrated on benefits for the Karoo Hoogland municipal area and the development of schools. The programme pays the salary of a mathematics and science teacher in Sutherland and this teacher also assists in Williston and Fraserburg.

One of the SALT partners, the University of Lancaster, has hosted 700 teachers to be further developed in mathematics and science teaching. Another partner, the University of Wisconsin, has established an exchange programme for teachers, also aimed at improving their competencies in teaching the gateway subjects.

Most of the partner universities overseas receive and host South African masters and Ph D students as part of an exchange programme. On the economic front, science tourism has been encouraged in Sutherland. Tours of the telescope are conducted during the day and the night. Tourists often stay in the local guesthouses. Silk screening and tulip farming have been established as viable economic activities in Williston and Fraserburg.

All of this supports the notion that SALT is indeed an example of an initiative that exploits the geographical advantage of a place and translates it into regional and national benefits. Furthermore, SALT, as a world-class facility, is putting South Africa on the global map of science and technology.

I hope I have adequately portrayed how SALT makes its contribution, now and in the future, to equity and redress within the South African society. Thank you.

Mr R P Z VAN DEN HEEVER: Chair, I want to thank the Deputy Minister for the answer. The opening of the large telescope, or SALT, as it is known in Sutherland, on 10 November, that is next week, is being described as a major milestone in South African science and technology history. We believe that the President himself will officiate at this auspicious occasion on 10 November.

While one celebrates the gigantic steps taken by South Africa in astronomy and space science, our country is in the throes of development and reconstruction; and I just want to ask the Minister if he is indeed satisfied that there are enough linkages between SALT and our equity and redress programmes to warrant the vast expenses incurred in this project? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Madam Chair, yes, I am quite convinced that the issues surrounding equity and redress and the extent to which this project can make a positive contribution is being fully realised, but we should be very aware of the fact that you can’t expect everything out of every project. This is not its primary intended purpose.

I would like to recall what President Thabo Mbeki said when he spoke at the opening of the South African Pavilion at the 2000 World Expo in Hanover. He talked of the gigantic African eye being built in the Karoo town of Sutherland as a vast gateway through which we can observe our oldest stars; learn about the formation of our galaxy and the lives of other worlds so as to get insights into the future.

So, it’s clear that the spin-offs from this project are considerable, but within the possibilities that exist and given that a lot of money is being spent on this project, we are doing our utmost to maximise capacity- building, research capacity-building, the equity and redress, as was asked by the hon member. Incidentally, only 34% of the total cost was borne by South Africa, 60% of the cost came from investors from the partner organisations. Thank you.

Dr R RABINOWITZ: Chair, hon Deputy Minister, Sutherland is really a good- news story. Everything about it is exciting, especially that it’s on African soil and Africa is regarded as the Cradle of Humankind, so it makes it doubly and trebly thrilling. But I have been to Sutherland, and one of the most stirring things about it is to look at the sky through the old telescope, not the new telescope.

In view of the need to stimulate the children of South Africa to become more interested in science, one practical experience is worth a thousand words. It’s a long way out and it will be expensive to take school children and local tourists to Sutherland. A lot of foreign and international visitors are sure to go there. Is there some way that you can make sure that there will be a regular bus tour going from Cape Town to take South Africans and South African school children to Sutherland and that when they go they will be able to turn the old telescope on the night sky and not look on a computer screen at the way the stars are being measured with information technology? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Chair, I think these are nice points. I heard the Minister of Finance heckling in the background. I know he went there himself, just a few weeks ago, with his own children. I think they spent the night there and enjoyed those night stars - that night sight - and the experience that you enjoyed yourself. But his heckle was about an observatory that is just down the road from us, and so to some extent, although the Sutherland observatory offers a unique experience, it is really designed to facilitate top-level scientific research.

It is true that you don’t watch the skies through a telescope. It’s all digital. It allows astronomy observers to send their questions and their observation requests to SALT via the Internet and get their data sent to them via the Internet as well. So, that is why they are such important international partners, because they are part of the consortium. Incidentally, I should say that hopefully this would assist us in the process of succeeding in our square kilometre ray bid, but that is a discussion for another time.

We take your point about the possibility of organising bus tours to Sutherland; and we should look into those things, because clearly we want as many ordinary South Africans, and especially young South Africans, to be exposed to this ground-breaking project that we have on our continent, on this Cradle of Humankind if you like.

It will cost money. I think we do need to limit the numbers of people going to Sutherland. It can’t be a major tourist feature, you can’t have busloads of people going there all the time; it may have detrimental environmental effects. But I think to give sufficient numbers of young, interested learners the opportunity to go to Sutherland is indeed a challenge, which we will take up. Thank you.

Mr J P I BLANCHÉ: Madame Chair, technically it is important that Sutherland and its surrounding environment should remain dark at night. That is why it was identified as a site. The night sky should remain free from urban lights; it must remain dark. Already we have heard of golf estates probably being established in the area, or other developments.

To what extent will government contain urban development of Sutherland where they invested this R360 million in the telescope? Will Sutherland remain dark at night?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Chair, I want to thank the hon member for that question; it’s an important one. It came as much of a surprise to me as it did to many other members to read the newspaper article yesterday and have the hon member of the IFP bring this matter to our attention; that there supposedly is a golf course development in the offing in the Sutherland area.

There are many issues of concern around such golf course developments. But as far as the impact on the telescope is concerned, yes indeed, it is the light that is of concern, and so a little while ago I spoke to the project manager, Dr David Buckley, and he has not been able to get a conclusive answer from either the municipality or the developers. He found out by accident on a website, in fact, that there is this proposed development, as you would have seen in the newspaper. But we will take it up very vigorously.

For the attention of members, we are considering bringing legislation to Parliament to give it a legislative framework so as to ensure that we have the ability to control the environment in terms of light and sound in the case of radio astronomy and the square kilometre ray, and in terms of light in the case of the optical telescope. We must ensure a legislative framework to allow for that. But meanwhile we will clearly engage with the municipality. We cannot possibly have a golf course development jeopardise an important project of this kind. Thank you.

Investment by public investment commissioners of Transnet pension fund money

1. Mr P J Groenewald (FF Plus) asked the Minister for Public Enterprises:

   Whether public investment commissioners have invested any money from the Transnet pension fund since 2000; if so, (a)(i) what amount and (ii) where has it been invested and (b) what has been the income of each of these investments to date? N1937E

The MINISTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Chairperson, the answer is no, the PIC does not invest money on behalf of the Transnet Pension Fund.

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Voorsitter, my opvolgvraag aan die agb Minister is: wie hanteer dan die beleggings ten opsigte van die Transnetpensioenfonds? Die rede waarom ek die vraag gevra het, is dat talle lede van die Transnet- pensioenfonds my geskakel het en gesê het dat hulle die afgelope drie jaar minimale verhogings gekry het. Almal dink inflasie is baie laag, maar die probleem is dat munisipale tariewe styg, die prys van brandstof styg en senior burgers moet die koste daarvan betaal terwyl hulle pensioentoelaes per jaar minimaal styg.

My opvolgvraag aan die agb Minister is dus: wie beheer die beleggings van hierdie fondse, en wat is daardie opbrengste, sodat daar jaarliks behoorlike uitbetalings en verhogings aan die lede gemaak kan word? Dankie, Voorsitter. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, my follow-up question to the hon Minister is: who, then, is handling the investments with regard to the Transnet Pension Fund? The reason why I am asking the question is that many members of the Transnet Pension Fund have phoned me to complain about the fact that they received minimal increases over the past three years.

Everybody believes that inflation is very low, but the problem is that municipal tariffs increase, the price of petrol increases, and senior citizens must pay these costs while their pensions are increasing minimally per annum.

Therefore my follow-up question to the hon Minister is: who is in control of the investment of these funds, and what are the returns on this, in order for members to receive proper payments and increases every year? Thank you, Chairperson.]

The MINISTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Chairperson . . . Here, nee man, dis te moeilik! Ek kan nie soveel sê in Afrikaans nie. Nee, hy “heckle” my, man. [Gelag.][No, man, it is too difficult, I can’t say that much in Afrikaans. No, he’s heckling me, man.][Laughter.]]

The funds are administered by the Transnet Pension Fund administrators. The current rules make provision for the increase that’s been given. That is a fairly complex situation, if we are talking about the secondary benefit fund, which is a closed fund, and it is a defined benefit fund as opposed to a defined contribution fund.

And yes, there are some matters in that fund that are of concern to us, and given the nature of the fund and the deficit that exists in it we have to be fairly prudent in its management. This is a matter that we are addressing, but it would not be possible, in the current situation, circumstances and structure of the fund, to make some dramatic improvements on it. It would create some fairly severe financial problems for the fund and for Transnet. Thank you.

Dr S M VAN DYK: Agb Voorsitter, agb Minister, in Julie verlede jaar het die Transnet Second Defined Benefit Fund ’n pensioen van ongeveer R217 per maand uitbetaal as gevolg van die lede se bydrae tot die fonds. As ’n mens dit vergelyk met die maatskaplike pensioenfonds van so R750 per maand in die ooreenstemmende tydperk vir lede wat nooit ’n bydrae gemaak het tot die pensioenfonds nie, wil ek graag die vraag aan u stel: is dit dan nie beter vir die lede van die Transnetaftreefonds, nadat hulle ook reeds hul mediese voordele verloor het, dat hulle afstand doen van hul fondse, en in die tou gaan staan vir die R750 ’n maand pensioen saam met diegene wat nooit ’n bydrae tot die fonds gemaak het nie? Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Dr S M VAN DYK: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, in July last year the Transnet Second Defined Benefit Fund paid out a pension of approximately R217 per month as a result of members’ contribution to the fund. If one compares this to the social pension of approximately R750 per month during the corresponding period for members who have never made a contribution to the pension fund, I would like to put the following question to you: Would it not therefore be better for the members of the Transnet retirement fund, having already lost their medical benefits, to relinquish their funds and join the queue for the pension of R750 a month along with those who never made a contribution to the fund? Thank you.]

The MINISTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Chairperson, Transnet’s second Defined Benefit Fund is a complex fund. These are pensioners that have been put into a closed fund. And defined benefit funds are difficult and problematic worldwide. Hence some years ago we made a shift to the Defined Contribution Fund, which is certainly a better system for the enterprise and ultimately, in our view, for the pensioner.

Now as I have just indicated in my response, the actuarial position and the structure of Defined Secondary Benefit Fund is problematic. There is a considerable exposure in that fund to Transnet because of the rules of the fund and exactly how they were costed at the time. This is not a satisfactory situation. It would be, from our point of view, beneficial if some of the pensioners in that fund did have an increase, and as I have indicated, this is a matter we are examining. However, it would be completely unrealistic and not possible to make some dramatic change to that pension fund in its current position.

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Voorsitter, die agb Minister het goeie verduidelikings gegee. Hy het gesê daar is probleme, en ek verstaan daar is sekere beperkinge. My opvolgvraag is: kan die agb Minister vir ons sê wat die probleme is, en wat hy gaan doen om te poog om daardie probleme op te los? (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Chairperson, the hon Minister gave a number of good explanations. He said there were problems, and I realise that there are certain limitations. My follow-up question is this: Can the hon Minister tell us what these problems are, and how he is going to try to solve them?]

The MINISTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Chairperson, maybe I should just explain a bit more carefully what this fund is. It is what is called a “closed fund”. So it is a fund that pays out pensions to a pool of pensioners that are in that fund. Accordingly, originally it was endowed with certain bonds from government, etc, that gave it a base from which to invest and meet its obligations. So that is what it does.

Now to change that structure is a massive exercise. It is a matter that is a relatively complex one. It is a matter that we are discussing with Transnet, including the Treasury. But in its present form we cannot just pump masses of amounts or new assets into it in order to increase its income flow and in order to pay higher pensions.

This, I am afraid, is a legacy problem; a specific type of fund that exists, and we clearly would like over time to phase it out. We are examining, with Transnet trustees and with the Ministry of Finance, whether there is a manner in which this could be managed in a slightly better way.

Let me not create any expectations that this is a simple problem that we’ll solve like that. But I must say that we are all sympathetic to the relatively low pensions that exist for many of the pensioners there.

I should also just point out that it is possible for a pensioner of that age to also attempt to get a social pension. So that option is open. They should take that option and I’m sure they do take it. This is a form of top- up, by and large, but it’s not a situation that we would have desired originally as the most favourable option.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr M J ELLIS: I have two, Mr Chairman, thank you.

First of all, I move:

That this House –

(1) expresses concern at the severity of the fires that are devastating parts of the Western Cape;

(2) commends the fire services and others who are fighting the fires in very difficult circumstances; and

  (3)   expresses its sympathies to the families of those who have lost
    their lives in the fires, as well as those have lost their homes and
    belongings, and calls on everyone to do everything possible to
    reduce the risk of fires.

Secondly, if I may continue, I hereby move:

That this House –

(1) congratulates Mr Sidney Chauke, an 84-year-old Johannesburg man who wrote his first matric examination yesterday. His achievements are a testimony to his perseverance, commitment and endurance and it sets a very good example to young learners about the value of education;

(2) commends Chauke for overcoming the disadvantages which prevented him from completing his education at a much younger age and for believing that one is never too old to achieve one’s goals. I thank you.

[Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: I move the Motion on the Order Paper in the name of the Chief Whip, as follows:

That the House, in accordance with section 193 (5) of the Constitution, appoints an ad hoc committee to nominate persons to fill vacancies on the Commission for Gender Equality, the committee – (1) to consist of 13 members in the following proportions: ANC 8; DA 2; IFP 1 and other parties 2;

 2) to exercise those powers in Rule 138 that may assist it in carrying
    out its task; and

(3) to report to the House by no later than 15 February 2006.

Agreed to.

                            NURSING BILL


              (Decision of Question on Second Reading)

There was no debate.

Question Put: That the Bill be read a second time.

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 218: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Asiya, S E; Baloyi, M R; Bekker, H J; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhamjee, Y S; Bhengu, F; Bhengu , M J; Bhengu, P; Bici, J; Bloem, D V; Bonhomme, T J; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Burgess, C V; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan-Khota, F I; Combrinck, J J; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Davies, R H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dikgacwi, M M; Direko, I W; Dithebe, S L; Dlhamini, B W; Dodovu, T S; Erwin, A; Fihla, N B; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gaum, A H; Gcwabaza, N E ; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Godi, N T; Gololo, C L; Goniwe, M T; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M; Gumede, M M; Gxowa, N B; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hendricks, L B; Hendrickse, P; Hogan, B A; Huang, S; Jacobus, L ; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, C B; Johnson, M; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kasienyane, O R; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, K K; Khumalo, K M; Khumalo, M S; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Kota, Z A; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Likotsi, M T; Lishivha, T E; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Mabena, D C; Mabuyakhulu, D V; Madella, A F; Maduma , L D; Madumise, M M; Magau, K R; Magubane, N E ; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Mahlawe, N M; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Makgate, M W; Malahlela, M J; Maloney, L; Maluleka, H P; Manana, M N S; Manuel, T A; Mars, I; Maserumule, F T; Mashangoane, P R; Mashigo, R J; Mashile, B L; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M H; Matsemela, M L; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matsomela, M J J ; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P; Meruti, M V; Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mkongi, B M; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnguni, B A; Mnyandu, B J; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, O M; Mohamed, I J; Mohlaloga, M R; Moloto, K A; Monareng, O E; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, L N; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mzondeki, M J G; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngculu, L V J; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, W; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J ; Njobe, M A A; Nkabinde, N C; Nkem-Abonta, E; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, R S; Ntuli, S B; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N ; Oliphant, G G; Pahad, A G H; Pandor, G N M; Phadagi, M G; Phala, M J; Phungula, J P; Rabinowitz, R; Rajbally, S ; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramphele, T D H; Rasmeni, S M; Roopnarain, U; Rwexana, S P; Schneemann, G D; Schippers, J; Schoeman, E A; Seaton, S A; Sefularo, M; Sekgobela, P S; September , C C; Shabangu, S; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J B; Siboza, S ; Sibuyana, M W; Sigcau, S N; Sigcau , Sylvia N; Sikakane, M R; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith , V G; Solo, B M; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Thomson, B; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Turok, B; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Wyk, A; Vos, S C; Wang, Y; Zikalala, C N; Zita, L; Zondi, K M; Zulu, N E.

NOES - 38: Blanché, J P I; Boinamo, G G; Delport, J T; Ditshetelo, P H K; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M; Greyling, L W; Jankielsohn, R; Joubert, L K; Kalyan, S V; King, R J; Kohler-Barnard, D; Labuschagne, L B; Lee, T D; Lowe, C M; Masango, S J; Mfundisi, I S; Minnie, K J; Morgan , G R; Nel, A H; Nzimande, L P M; Opperman, S E; Pule, B E; Rabie, P J; Semple, J A; Simmons, S; Smuts, M; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Swathe, M M; Trent, E W; Van der Walt, D; Weber, H.

ABSTAIN - 2: Ngema, M V; Woods, G G.

Question agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a second time.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORTS OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON HOME AFFAIRS -OVERSIGHT VISIT TO IMMIGRATION OFFICE, CAPE TOWN INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT AND CAPE TOWN HARBOUR;OVERSIGHT VISIT TO DEPARTMENT OF HOME AFFAIRS, EASTERN CAPE; NATIONAL CONFERENCE AGAINST CHILD PORNOGRAPHY HELD IN PORT ELIZABETH, EASTERN CAPE; OVERSIGHT VISIT TO INDEPENDENT ELECTORAL COMMISSION AND GOVERNMENT PRINTING WORKS IN TSHWANE

Mr H P CHAUKE: Thank you very much, Chairperson, for giving us this opportunity to highlight some of the work that the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs has been engaging on. Let me firstly outline that from the beginning of this year, the portfolio committee embarked on a number of oversight working visits around the country.

The Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs embarked on a number of programmes around the monitoring of Home Affairs offices within the country. Not only did we look at the work of the department, but we also looked at areas like entities, such as the Film and Publication Board; we did oversight on the IEC, and we did oversight on the Government Printing Works.

The problem is that the reports we are sitting with today are the result of work that was done by June and some time in May this year. Most of the issues that have been identified in the report as part of the recommendations and problem areas that we have identified have been addressed by the department.

Our only task today is to note some of the issues that have been highlighted. I think it will be necessary that Parliament should begin to look at a system whereby once the committee has adopted the report, it should immediately be tabled before Parliament and certain recommendations communicated to the relevant Ministers for attention, so that there is consistency with regard to our oversight work.

One of the problems that was reported in last week’s newspapers by one of the learned journalists in one of the local newspapers is that portfolio committees are rubber stamps of Ministers and they ask sweet questions. I think it is not correct that we should be dictated to by journalists and newspapers as to how we should conduct our work. The four reports that are before Parliament today . . . [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M DOIDGE): Order, hon Chauke! Hon members, the noise levels are far too high. Could I please ask hon members to take their seats? Please proceed, hon member.

Mr H P CHAUKE: Thank you very much for your protection, Chairperson. The four reports that have been tabled today are part of the ongoing work of the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs, and we still have an extra seven reports that still have to go through this House. It is going to be up to the programming committee and Parliament to make sure that once we have finalised those reports they are processed and recommendations are taken very seriously.

This will clearly demonstrate the work that is done by portfolio committees, not only when we put questions to Ministers, but when we do our oversight work around the country, meeting with officials, checking name tags, checking the cleanliness of the offices, and generally checking service delivery which is part of the Batho Pele programme of action.

One of the areas that I want to highlight is the issue of migration. As part of the report on our visit to the Cape Town International Airport, we identified a number of problems; and because of the launch of the new immigration branch, the department has immediately responded to and has started to deal with some of these problems.

These problems cut across a wide area; not only around the Western Cape at the Cape Town International Airport, but even at the Johannesburg International Airport we still have the same problems.

One of the reports that are before us today is on the conference that was held on child pornography in the Eastern Cape in Port Elizabeth somewhere in June 2005. I just want to highlight a few areas that have been identified as part of our programme of action and Parliament should definitely immediately focus on some of these issues.

The general problem of pornography is that our children are exposed to some of these acts of pornography that are deliberately distributed all over, on television and in the media. This really corrupts our children and exposes them to some of these areas. One of the recommendations at the conference was that we should, as Parliament, start a national debate on child pornography and child trafficking, which would then filter through, not only to the national level, but also to the provincial level. Municipalities should really consider taking on some of these campaigns.

The second area is on the role of these service providers, and that the portfolio committee has decided, as part of our programme, to invite these role-players who are going to appear before the portfolio committee on 15 November, to come together and engage on the issues of pornography and see how best we can deal with these problems.

Last time when I raised the issue of the shop next door, most members were not happy, especially from the DA side. They were not happy that we are now leaving what we are supposed to be doing and we are dealing with issues that do not concern us. I just want to remind members that part of . . . [Interjections.]

Mr D H M GIBSON: . . . . you are not doing what you are supposed to be doing, that’s what you have been doing for 10 years.

Mr H P CHAUKE: Well, for 10 years, Gibson, I will tell you that the problem has been that the opposition party did not understand the problems that we were raising. For 10 years this Department of Home Affairs did not have senior management, Gibson. It is only now, with the current Minister, and you have been shouting every day when you get to the podium that this department does not have senior management. There is a need for us to employ these people so that they are the ones who must drive this programme.

Let me tell you about the behaviour of the DA. The behaviour of the DA was: Let us support the IFP as much as possible the IFP because we want to get together with them as an alliance. For the past 10 years they have been doing that. They did not look at the problems faced by Home Affairs.

It is only today that the DA agrees with us. In fact, the member of the DA who is serving in the portfolio committee - I am not saying you must start to harass her - understands these issues more than you, hon Gibson. She understands that Home Affairs is faced with problems, more than you, because you are just trying to exercise those rights of winning over the IFP to work with you, and all of that.

I am saying to you today that Home Affairs is changing and it is changing every day. The directors that we have employed have started to implement programmes that begin to address service delivery, because the biggest problem in the Department of Home Affairs has been service delivery. We have seen a number of programmes. [Interjections.]

What’s wrong with Billy Masetla? No, no, you see, you are just being out of order. These things are part of the problems that we are dealing with today; Nkosi Zulu will tell you that he had to run away from the portfolio committee because we were dealing directly with the problems that are facing this department.

If you go to KwaZulu-Natal you will find that there is no office of Home Affairs that this portfolio committee did not visit in this country. We have been to every single province, every single Home Affairs office and we know the problems.

These things are not new, and we have been harping on these problems for 10 years, and nobody was listening. It is only now that there are people who are very serious about changing the Department of Home Affairs. I am just dealing with the reports of the findings of the Portfolio Committee. I don’t know why there is such a noise now, because you are still going to do that. The seventh report is still going to come and you are going to do the same.

One of the areas that we identified was the problem with regard to processing of applications for asylum seekers. That is a general problem. A month ago the portfolio committee initiated the programme where we interacted directly with refugees in the country. For the first time in any parliament in the world we invited more than 500 refugees to come to Parliament and interact directly with members of Parliament. The DA and the IFP played their role.

We have tried our level best to make sure that the services that we must provide as Home Affairs are reaching the very same people that we are trying to target. On that note I would like to say that with these reports

• as old as they may be - and the issues that are raised here, as I have said earlier, the Minister, together with the DG and the senior leadership in the department are sort of beginning to address this problem.

On that note, we are not going to recommend anything much. We are only here to say that the issue of pornography needs to be addressed. Let me share with members the response from the gentleman who used to run the shop outside Parliament – the shop is closed because of our intervention - he addresses me as Reverend Chauke. He said, “We hereby wish to inform you that the shop will close as from 28 . . . ”

It then clearly shows you that, without this portfolio committee . . . because this is what these guys from the DA want us to do. They want us to keep quiet and corrupt our society as much as we can, so that tomorrow they can stand up and say, “Look at the ANC-led government. Look at what they are doing to society. There is no morality, there is pornography and there are all of these things”. That is why we are dealing with those issues.

We are very clear, and we know where we are going. Gradually we are going to change this Department of Home Affairs. On that note, I want the House to note this report, and maybe in the next few days I will come with a motion in the House to request the House to debate the issues of child pornography and child trafficking.

I want to thank members of the portfolio committee for the role that they have played. They were not partisan and were very critical on issues we have dealt with in the department. On that note, I thank them very much and I wish them well, so that next year we will be coming with a very tight programme again in making sure that service delivery is still continuing and reaching out to most of our people. Thank you very much, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Mrs S V KALYAN: Chairperson, as a member of the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs, I’m often phoned by members of the public who want to air their frustrations at delays or queues when they visit their local Home Affairs offices. So, when the programme for our committee this year centred on oversight visits, I was really pleased, as that would give us a chance to experience firsthand what the reality on the ground is.

The common complaints at every Home Affairs office that we visited centred around staff shortages and lack of up-to-date computers, resulting in long queues and high levels of frustration. No matter where in the country an application is made, it has to be sent to Pretoria for processing and finalisation. Applications can take up to three months, if you are lucky, for something as simple as an unabridged birth certificate.

If every Home Affairs office was properly computerised and linked to the mainframe in Pretoria, the waiting and processing time would be vastly reduced to a matter of days. It’s unbelievable that in these days of information technology that the department still has to catch up.

The staff shortages at most Home Affairs offices are impacting drastically on service delivery, with the Immigration Unit being most affected. Of course, four directors-generals in a relatively short space of time have not helped the cause.

The portfolio committee visited the IEC in June to determine the state of preparedness for the upcoming local government elections; the briefing was informative. Given that a definite date for the elections has not been set, their preparatory work for an unknown deadline is very good. It is unfortunate that the Minister of Provincial and Local Government Affairs and President Mbeki have failed to proclaim the election date.

One just cannot understand the secrecy; we all know that it has to happen. Why can’t they be mature enough to proclaim the date openly so that all political parties can get on with the job at hand of electioneering instead of playing childish games – why should the people be the last to know?

I would like to turn my attention to the Government Printing Works. To say that this entity is a disaster, is putting it mildly. The GPW has had several qualified audits and a disclaimer to boot last year. Several state departments owe them large amounts of money, and the GPW does not seem overanxious to collect its deals.

The site visit was depressing to say the least. This facility is housed in an old prison and while the spirit and commitment of the staff is beyond question, the conditions they work under are appalling.

I also wish to dwell on the issue of security and ID documents. In recent months thousands of fraudulent documents have surfaced both in South Africa and abroad, and I think the GPW should answer for that. We found it quite interesting that while IDs and other official documents reflect South Africa’s new coat of arms, our passports carry the old apartheid coat of arms. It is my considered opinion that this is a poor reflection on our democracy and the Minister should remedy this immediately.

The chaos at the refugee reception centres is prevalent throughout the other country and the Department of Home Affairs has to come up with a more humane way of handling the crisis that exists presently.

The launch of the National Immigration Branch was rushed and ill- considered; flashy new cars and new uniforms were on show at the launch but the new cars are not in place because a particular shade of burgundy paint is unavailable, and the new uniforms are not being issued because the blue is not available.

Judging from the department’s response it would appear that colour coding is far more important than actual service delivery. The Minister needs to be more serious about the so-called “turnaround strategy” she constantly refers to. It is unfortunate that we are discussing so many reports in one slot as the allocated time is too short to do justice to all of them.

However, in conclusion, I wish to acknowledge the collegiality of my colleagues on these trips, which are quite strenuous and arduous, but nevertheless quite interesting. Thank you.

Mrs I MARS: Hon Chairperson, colleagues, the number and scope of reports before this House today are indicative of the seriousness with which the committee of Home Affairs views its oversight responsibilities. In fact, oversight has constituted the major part of these committees’ registered activities and have led to an in-depth interrogation at the Government Printing Works, immigration services at ports of entry and the IEC and Home Affairs offices. Most of the visits were unannounced.

On these visits the committee not only interacted with management and staff, but in the instance of Home Affairs, also with the public. Issues raised by staff were submitted to senior officials for comment and follow- up meetings. It was pleasing to note the responses from both immigration services and Home Affairs at Cape Town’s port of entry. It doesn’t solve the problem, but at least our visits provoked action.

The issues identified here are the same as other Home Affairs and immigration service structures, which are first and foremost the shortage of staff, which in turn leads to heavy loads of extra shifts and poor support for staff, such as transportation; the lack of adequate technical support, ie computers and cameras. Some staff are still serving in a temporary capacity and the salaries currently paid appear to be very low.

More communication between management and staff, including regular meetings, needs to be considered and implemented. Some of the other minuted negative observations could easily be remedied in the medium term if more staff becomes available. And, I am talking here about the issues raised like cleanliness and courtesy as well.

One issue of great concern is that many staff members do not wear their name tags. Home Affairs needs to compel its staff to wear them at all times so that the public can identify them; so that we can be serious about identifying those members of the Department of Home Affairs who are giving good and sterling service, and those who are constantly rude and not very helpful.

The issue of asylum seekers and their difficulties can also be reduced to inadequate staffing and lack of equipment. Currently PE can only handle 20 applications a day, leading to enormous backlogs leaving applicants to queue and wait for days before being assisted.

We ascertained from the IEC if sufficient funds for the forthcoming elections were available, but there were problems with our outreach programmes in poor and rural areas.

The IFP considers voter education an important issue, and asks that more resources be allocated. In supporting the recommendations made . . . [Time expired.]

Sorry, the IFP wishes to reiterate our concern that Home Affairs continues to be grossly underfunded. Thank you.

Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, the ACDP welcomes the resolutions taken at the National Conference Against Child Pornography in June, to eradicate the scourge of child pornography in all its manifestations. We are encouraged by the fact that the link between child pornography and adult pornography was acknowledged at this conference.

We as the ACDP have consistently objected to the legalisation of adult pornography, and have repeatedly highlighted the use of adult pornography in enticing and forcing children into child pornography activities. We have also pointed out that many sex offenders have been found to be in possession of pornography. But, it is not enough to simply hold a conference and acknowledge the link between child and adult pornography.

How many more despicable acts of sexual violence against children must take place before antipornography legislation is passed in this country. The report on the conference states that South Africa has become a dumping ground for the world’s pornography. It should therefore come as no surprise that child rape is so prevalent in our country.

The ACDP has always maintained that “pornography is the theory and rape is the practice”. And, I would challenge hon Chauke – let’s look at this and see whether we can’t pass some antipornography legislation. I thank you.

Mr I S MFUNDISI: Chairperson, hon Members, because of time constraints, I will only concentrate on one item – the visit to Port Elizabeth. It came to light that, as we went to those offices, there was this jostling and pushing around by the refugees, and that is a real cause for concern.

One would notice that this jostling was caused by the said quotas, where officials have to interview a certain number - that is 20 per day. And, we only hope that with the recommendations made by the committee that they should at least interview 40 refugees per day - that it would serve as a minimum – they could still do much better.

We feel that there is a need that this Batho Pele ethic should not be seen to be spoken of, but should be seen to be done at all times. We only hope that without using this much as blackmail, the question of the African Peer Review Mechanism will come into the picture here where people, even civil society, will come to judge and express their views on how the government officials present their work; on how they perform their duties and deliver services.

And, it is very, very unfortunate that in these days we still have people even in high places that seem to have no conscience when it comes to child pornography. [Time expired.] I thank you.

Mr M T LIKOTSI: Chairperson, the PAC wishes to accept the report of the committee as tabled in this House. The oversight duty of members of Parliament is a good strategy to monitor and observe the implementation of our legislation in the country. This department is plagued with many challenges ranging from the absorption of asylum and job seekers to helping investors, travellers and students at our respective institutions of learning.

In Port Elizabeth the department has a lack of staff, whilst the level of unemployment in the country is a high, especially amongst unemployed professionals. There is a lack of infrastructure in some areas, such as Humansdorp. The residents are forced to travel more than 160km to Port Elizabeth to acquire certain services of the department. To close this gap, the department uses mobile units in rural areas. Nationally, this is not different; deep, rural area communities struggle to register the births and deaths of their loved ones, or apply for identity documents or passports. Thank you.

Ms S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, the findings in the task team’s report regarding immigration at Cape Town Harbour and Cape Town International Airport was shocking. The MF requests that the recommendations made in this respect be taken seriously, so as to correct the loopholes regarding staff and resources. Once addressed, we are certain that immigration at these places will be managed more efficiently and effectively.

The immigration of persons to and from our ports needs to be managed properly, if we note the mismanagement in our population and economy. While we need to take cognisance, especially of illegal immigration, we open our doors to those seeking political asylum.

From the reports of the Eastern Cape, it is appalling that political asylum seekers are addressed in that fashion. The death threats are of great concern and the MF calls for immediate recommendations to be made to alleviate this and, in fact, for a total revamp to Home Affairs procedures and management to ensure greater fulfilment of tasks and efficiency of the system.

The MF denounces all forms of child pornography and fully supports the national conference against this, held from 1 to 3 June. The outcome appears to be promising and the skills extended needs to be expanded. Child trafficking will be stopped and all avenues to do so will be taken.

Lastly, the report regarding the IEC is noted with all seriousness; noting the important role this body plays in our democracy for our people and the need for its effective management. The MF supports that the recommendations made in all reports and suggests that this be instituted. Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr M SWART: Chairperson, President Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe has governed his country to the brink of bankruptcy. Small wonder, then, that the South African embassy in Harare issues more than 1 000 visas daily to Zimbabweans to visit South Africa. They come to South Africa for economic reasons, and not for refugee status.

The Refugee Act does not allow refugee status for economic reasons. The Department of Home Affairs does not have a facility at the border post to determine whether a person qualifies for refugee status or not. Once the asylum seeker reaches our borders, he or she is then given travel documents and told to go to the nearest refugee station, which is in Johannesburg, or somewhere around there, and we never hear of or see that refugee again.

The thousands of people coming into South Africa are finding jobs to the detriment of the unemployed people of South Africa, and we need to do something about this. We also need to make sure that there is a facility at the border posts where the status of refugees can actually be determined and where they can be held until such time as their refugee status has been determined.

I therefore call on the government to actually make sure that there is such a refugee status facility and a place where these people can be held. A large proportion of the costs can be carried by the UNHCR, and the DA calls on the government to please make sure that these facilities are made available as soon as possible. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr M P SIBANDE: Chairperson, hon members . . .

. . . liqinisile elinye lamaqembu omculo womdabu, i-Ladysmith Black Mambazo, ngomucu wayo ongasoze wabuna othi: “Uhleka aze aqethuke emizini yabanye abantu kodwa uma efika kowakhe agqunqe abe mnyama.” [Uhleko.] Kule Ndlu yeSishayamthetho kunesigeqana samabhoxongwana okuthi uma kunezinselelo okufanele sibhekane nazo njengesizwe esisodwa, sona sigqunqe sibe mnyama kuhle kwesimo sezulu sibafazi bedube inyama. [Uhleko.] Kodwa uma befika kwamanye amazwe noma kukhulunywa ngamanye amazwe afana noZimbabwe, bahleka baze baqethuke kuze kuvele izinyo lomhlathi. [Uhleko.]

Kubona kubukeka sengathi inhlangano ye-ANC okuyiyona kuphela okufanele ilethe izinguquko. Le misheshelengwana iyakhohlwa ukuthi nayo ingamalungu esishayamthetho esikusona. Ngalokho-ke, kufanele ukuthi zonke izinselelo eziqondene noMnyango wezaseKhaya kube umthwalo wethu sonke. Ngingazi-ke ukuthi labo bantu abaphila ngokugxeka yonke intuthuko eyenziwa uKhongolose ngabe bayazi yini ukuthi ngalezi zenzo zabo bajivaza isithunzi sezwe lakithi. (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[ . . . that which is said by the Afropop group Ladysmith Black Mambazo in its classic hit is true, namely: “He is always willing and happy to share other people’s things but when it comes to his own he frowns and sees red.” [Laughter.] In this House there is a sinister syndicate that does not want to co-operate with us when we are faced with challenges as a nation; instead they see red. [Laughter.] But when they go to other countries, or when mention is made of other countries like Zimbabwe, they become so happy that they laugh and one can even see their wisdom teeth. [Laughter.]

To these people it looks like the ANC is the only party that should bring about change. This gang even forget that they, too, are members of this very House. Therefore we all should shoulder all challenges faced by the Department of Home Affairs. I am not too sure if these people are aware that by criticising the development brought about by the ANC they are painting a bad picture of our country.]

With regard to the oversight visit to Tshwane, I will start with the Independent Electoral Commission, the IEC. I’d like to commend the IEC on the marvellous job it is doing locally and internationally in terms of South Africa as the youngest democracy. Today the IEC, under the leadership of Dr Bam, is among the very important or outstanding institutions in the world that represent the country locally and internationally.

The commission has already been involved in countries such as Namibia, Lesotho, the DRC, etc, and is in a partnership with the African Union.

Dokotela Bam ngithi kuwe, “Wathinta abafazi uthinta imbokodo”. [Ihlombe.] [Doctor Bam, I say to you, “You strike a woman, you strike a rock”. [Applause.]]

With regard to the visit to the Department of Home Affairs in Tshwane, at the Department of Home Affairs you cannot distinguish between staff members from the people who come in for service. Therefore I would like to appeal to all staff members to wear nametags at all times during working hours.

As far as the oversight visit to Cape Town is concerned, I will start with the immigration office. The visit was a follow-up to the visit of 22 February 2005. The issues, which prompted the follow-up, were the conditions of service and the remuneration of immigration staff.

With regard to key political considerations, the department is looking into declaring the work of immigration officials as an essential service. Secondly, the level of contract staff employed is extremely high, including the head of the immigration office. Regarding the oversight visit to Cape Town Harbour, one of the key challenges is a massive shortage of staff. For example, it was discovered that there is only one person on duty at night. There are no computers to process work and there is no control over fishing yards and fishing vessels. This is a security risk.

With regard to key recommendations, it is recommended that a port terminal be built at the harbour; that there be training in intelligence matters to improve security; that there be new regulations to control the movement of vessels; and, lastly, that there be a formal meeting with harbour officials.

Kuwe Ngqongqoshe wezaseKhaya, umama uNosiwe Mapisa-Nqakula, noma engekho nje, ngithi, “Wathinta abafazi wathinta imbokodo.” Ibizo lakho lizohlala lisemlonyeni wesitjhaba nasesizukulwaneni esizako, ngombana ungumma. Uqakatheke khulu siyazikhakhazisa ngawe, ube nepilo ehle khulu gadesi uZimu akutjhudubaze. [To the Minister of Home Affairs, Madam Nosiviwe Mapisa- Nqakula, even though she is not here, I say, “You strike a woman, you strike a rock”. Your name will always be recognised by the nation and the coming generations, because you are a woman. You are very important and we are proud of you; have a happy life and God bless you.] I would like to thank the Minister for her urgent response to most of the above-mentioned challenges. It is a fact that the launching of the immigration branch was to address the key challenges we have identified during our oversight visits.

I’d also like to thank the deputy directors-general for having come up with programmes that harnessed the work that impacted positively on service delivery. For the past 10 years the department has not had senior managers at national level. Regarding the speedy appointment of these directors, our understanding was that the department could not run effectively without these people.

Ngizwe umama u-Kalyan ekhala ngokuthi uMongameli akamemezeli usuku lokhetho. Angazi noma ucabanga ukuthi ngokumemezela usuku lokhetho abantu bazojika bavotele inhlangano yakhe i-DA. Ngeke kwenzeke lokho. Ngaphambi kokuba ngiphothule inkulumo yami ngizothanda futhi ukugcizelela ukuthi umphakathi mawuphume ngothi lwawo uyobhalisela ukhetha lomasipala ezigodini ohlala kuzona. Emva kwalokho bese bekhumbuza onke amaqembu aphikisayo ukuthi i-ANC iyona kuphela inkunzi ekhonyayo. Kulolu khetho oluzayo i-ANC izophumelela ngamalengiso. Bona bazohamba baze babambe utalagu. Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.)

[I heard Madam Kalyan complaining that the President was announcing the election date. I am not too sure whether she thinks that as a result of the election date being announced early, people would vote for her party, the DA. That will never happen. In conclusion I wish to ask the public to go out in numbers and register for the local government elections in their districts. Thereafter people will remind the opposition parties that there is one reigning political king in South Africa, and it is the ANC. The ANC will win this election comfortably. Those in the opposition will forever be wanting. Thank you. [Applause.]]

Debate concluded.

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, we move:

That the reports be noted.

Motion agreed to.

Reports of Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs accordingly noted.

The House adjourned at 17:50. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Messages from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces in respect of Bills passed by Assembly and transmitted to Council

Bills passed by National Assembly on 2 November 2005 and transmitted
for concurrence:


         i) Nursing Bill [B 26B – 2005 (Reprint)] (National Assembly –
            sec 75).


            The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on Social
            Services.

1. Membership of Committees

(1)    The following changes  have  been  made  to  the  membership  of
     Standing Committees, viz:


     Public Accounts:
  Appointed: Bekker, Mr H J; Vezi, Mr T E (Alt)

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Assembly

1. Report on gazetting of draft Financial Management of Parliament Bill, dated 2 November 2005:

The Portfolio Committee on Finance wishes to report to the House, in
accordance with Assembly Rules, that it has published the draft
Financial Management of Parliament Bill in the Government Gazette for
public comment on 28 October 2005.

1. Interim Report of the Portfolio Committee on Housing on the Prevention of Illegal Eviction from and Unlawful Occupation of Land Amendment Bill [B 11 - 2005] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 2 November 2005:

The Portfolio Committee on Housing, having considered  the  subject  of
the Prevention of Illegal Eviction from and Unlawful Occupation of Land
Amendment Bill [B 11 - 2005] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred  to
it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75  Bill,
begs to report the status of the Bill as follows:

 1.     That in its meeting held  on  11  October  2005,  the  Portfolio
     Committee on Housing agreed that the  Bill  be  held  in  abeyance
     until early next year (2006), pending further consultations on the
     Bill by the Department.


 2.     That the decision was informed by  the  Committee’s  observation
    that more time was needed for  consultations  with  other  relevant
    stakeholders, including other government departments and NGOs,  and
    that the Bill needs to be aligned  with  other  related  pieces  of
    legislation; and the Portfolio Committee has  thus  instructed  the
    Departmental drafters to take such matters on board.


 3.     To this end, the Department of Housing requested  more  time  to
    deal with the  matters  the  Portfolio  Committee  has  raised,  as
    highlighted in  this  report,  to  which  the  Portfolio  Committee
    agrees.


A plan of action on the Bill will be carried out in the Committee
Programme for 2006.