FRIDAY, 20 MAY 2005 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

                                ____

The Council met at 09:33.

The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

Debate on Vote No 5 – Provincial and Local Government:

The MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Madam Chairperson, members of the executive council responsible for local government affairs, hon members and delegates from our provinces, as well as from Salga, a central concern of the National Council of Provinces is to see our multisphered system of government staying signposted towards the goal of bringing about a better life for all our people. Indeed, the NCOP’s programme of action commits the House to an undertaking that by the year 2009, the NCOP will spend 70% of its time and resources performing oversight responsibilities and 30% on legislation.

At the centre of your programme is the idea of taking Parliament to the people – an idea, which was unveiled in the year 2002. We have already seen this happen as you took Parliament to KwaZulu-Natal and Mpumalanga provinces, thereby affording rural communities the opportunity for direct interaction with a parliament they can rightfully call their own.

Given the historical marginalisation of the people in the townships and the rural areas of our country, your decision must indeed be commended, for it serves to underscore the point that the institutional foundations of our government and Parliament are shaped by a commitment to inclusivity.

For its part, government has taken initiatives that are aimed at accelerating our effort to reach and deepen the same goal of inclusivity. These initiatives include: Work which is already underway to develop a framework for the alignment of the national spatial development perspective, the provincial growth and development strategies and the municipal integrated development plans.

It also includes a programme of IDP hearings, which started in April 2005, and which is meant to be completed by June. This particular programme will be implemented in selected municipalities, covering the span of all 47 district municipalities and six metropolitan municipalities. We have enlisted the services of experts who are drawn from various organisations to constitute panels that will facilitate these hearings.

The value of the IDP hearings must be assessed on two counts: Firstly, as an exercise which seeks to realise the notion that communities are co- framers of development plans and municipal budgets; and secondly, as a means of establishing a baseline from which acceleration towards the pinnacle of progress can be orchestrated.

Successful hearings have already taken place in seven out of our nine provinces, namely: Free State, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West and the Western Cape. This initiative and other initiatives of a similar kind provide a platform to the NCOP to execute its oversight mandate regarding the practice of intergovernmental relations.

As the NCOP interacts with the people on the basis of its own programme, it will, no doubt, make its own determination as to what is required to change the lives of the people for the better. It will also be able not only to assess the efficacy of the strategic plans of individual departments, but it will also be able to evaluate our instruments for co-ordinating the delivery of cross-cutting programmes.

The NCOP will have to satisfy itself that government has put in place strategic plans, which offer certainty and predictability as to the development goals that are being pursued and also has the necessary flexibility to respond to political and economic feedback.

As far as municipal strategic planning is concerned, we must also bear in mind that we only started to have fully-fledged IDPs in 2001, as the new local government structure and system was beginning to firm up. The relative stability that we experienced within such a relatively short space of time speaks to the level of “adaptive efficiency” that we have been able to achieve. For instance, our assessment of the IDPs in 2003 showed that about 72% of our municipalities have the basic institutional capacity in place to prepare effective IDPs. However, despite the existence of the basic institutional capacity, almost half of these municipalities require support to be able to prepare such IDPs.

Meanwhile, the balance of municipalities lacks not only the capacity to prepare effective IDPs, but also, they need to be assisted to put in place the requisite institutional mechanisms. These realities tell us that the actual unfolding of local government transformation processes does not conform to such neat trajectories as we visualised in the beginning. For instance, we visualised a periodised unfolding of transformation, which starts with the establishment of municipalities, goes through to a stabilisation phase and ultimately into the phase of sustainability. These three distinct phases have in practice tended to be coincident and not linear in sequence; and the process has also, for historical and other reasons, been differential between municipalities.

In his 2005 state of the nation address, President Thabo Mbeki expressed concern about the state, and particularly about local government not having sufficient capability to implement its own development and poverty alleviation programmes. Accordingly, the President charged the Forum of SA Directors-General, Fosad, with the task of assessing the overall effectiveness of government. Fosad will deliver its report for consideration by the Cabinet lekgotla which is due to take place in July this year.

The importance of Fosad urgently completing its task, and Cabinet taking the necessary decision cannot be overemphasised. This is especially crucial when one bears in mind the following: The need for the state to consolidate its reach and impact as we get deeper into the second decade of freedom and the need to develop capacity, which is indigenous to local government, so that municipalities themselves may efficiently discharge their obligations to the people.

Significant work has already been done in this regard, since we have, amongst other things, established planning and implementation management support centres in all 47 district municipalities. It also takes into account the need for support to be extended to provinces, some of which have reportedly underspent their budget allocations for public works programmes, roads and transport.

This provincial underspending of the adjusted capital budgets, coupled with underspending with respect to the municipal infrastructure grant, has the pernicious effect of entrenching social and economic infrastructure backlogs, thus denying local economies the essentials for catalysing private sector investment.

The support given to provinces will enable them to develop their own growth and development strategies. At the same time, it will enable them to join hands with national and local governments, as well as with Salga, to assist the municipalities. After all, not only should we ensure that there is a tight fit between the plans and operations of all three our spheres of government, but also, we must see municipal areas as impact zones for our government-wide development effort. This necessitates that we internalise in our plans and operations the fact that local government is a development space shared by all spheres of government. As hon members know, municipalities are expected to provide services complementarily to services provided by the other two spheres of government. A school or clinic built in a province must be serviced with water, sanitation, electricity and access roads. The absence of alignment with respect to planning, budgeting and even execution between the spheres can only reduce the basket of services that is available to the people.

The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa enjoins us to table the Intergovernmental Relations Framework Bill. This we did in February this year. The Bill is now awaiting adoption by the National Assembly and will, in due course, serve before this House. The Bill seeks to achieve institutional certainty about inter-sphere collaboration towards the goal of sustained, positive and integrated impact on the development challenges facing our country. As I said earlier, it will also provide the framework for refining our budgetary, as well as our planning, systems and processes.

I must say that the Bill could not have come at a better time. It comes at a time when the need for the constituent elements of government to work, as a cohesive unit, is more manifest than it has ever been before. It comes at a time when all our spheres of government, individually and severally, have to find more technically efficient ways of serving the people.

Hon members and delegates, you will recall that on 24 August 2004, in a special debate before the House, we spoke of the need for a governmental system where levels of intersphere co-ordination are more greatly enhanced, a local government sphere which is robust in its functional efficiency, as well as municipal residents, individual and corporate, with unbending commitment to their civic responsibilities.

Although the realisation of this goal, as is the case with all fundamental changes, has been relatively slow in materialising, we have never been closer to the goal than we are today. We advance towards the goal comfortable in the knowledge that we can continue to count on the active support of the National Council of Provinces. Together, let us do what we have to do for the sake of this, our country. I thank you.

Mr S SHICEKA: Deputy Chair, you will agree with me that some lessons are required, particularly in the pronunciation of my name by many members in this House.

Hon Deputy Chair, Minister, MECs, present Salga delegates, special delegates and colleagues, allow me this opportunity to congratulate Minister Sydney Mufamadi and his team, under their esteemed Director- General, on their work that they have done and the good results that have been achieved during the past year.

Their commitment and dedication to the task is commendable and their task is indeed a daunting one. We know that the responsibility for service delivery has been placed squarely on the shoulders of municipalities in President Thabo Mbeki’s state of the nation address in May 2004, as well as in February this year. Local government must therefore take the lead in this decade of a people-centred, people-driven government and service excellence.

In order to live up to this task there are overwhelming challenges, as much as obstacles to overcome, but already the department has accelerated the pace of their response to these challenges. Their work through Project Consolidate stands out in this respect in particular. The hands-on support, which will be provided to municipalities over the next two years, is one of the serious areas where we have seen the mobilisation of private sector, nongovernmental organisations and all forces that have an interest in local government in a way that is unprecedented. This mobilisation has never happened before. We believe that this will offer immediate solutions to the challenges and shortcomings that are being experienced at local government level.

The committee believes that it is these combinations of such efforts as hands on support and significant increases in the budget allocation of municipalities that will help those municipalities to be able to live up to the challenge and maximise their efforts; especially those municipalities with serious service delivery and infrastructure backlogs.

The following has been observed by the committee, namely that the budget of 2005-06 has grown nominally by 18,6%. The substantial portion of this increase goes to transfers to local government, which are articulated in free basic services, local government equitable shares, municipal infrastructure grants and municipal systems improvement programmes. We believe, Minister, that these efforts will be able to take local government forward.

We must remember that apartheid planning has left deep scars on the spatial structure of our cities, towns and rural areas, and on the lives of millions of individuals and households.

The spatial integration of our settlement is critical. It will enhance economic efficiency, facilitate provision of affordable services, reduce the costs of households that they incur through commuting and enable social development.

Spatial integration is also central to building a nation with many cultures. It is also central in building a nonracial and nonsexist society. It is at the centre of building an integrated society, a society where children of the rich live side-by-side with the children of the poor, and they will be sharing the same facilities. Mixed land use and mixed income development are the answer to these questions and also to the promotion of integrated cities, towns and townships.

Integration must ensure affordable mobility between work, home and recreational areas. Cosmo city development in Johannesburg, which has been recently launched by the housing Minister, is a case in point. We need more cosmo cities in this country.

Rezoning requests and applications for building permits and development projects by developers are frequently held up in cumbersome, bureaucratic approval processes. In many cases these can be simplified. The establishment of a spatial framework which identifies land for residential, commercial and mixed development can help, firstly, to speed up rezoning and secondly, to speed up approval of development applications, thus creating an investor-friendly planning regime in this country.

The committee therefore, Minister, thinks that clear national guidelines have to be established as a matter of importance to ensure that the planning regime in this country is creating those conditions that are conducive for investors to be able to put their money in this country.

In rural areas the challenges of building liveable environments range from securing access to land and services for rural poor to addressing the distortions in ownership and opportunity that apartheid created between white and black rural dwellers. This practice resulted in dense settlements with no sustainable economic base.

In many of these settlements the majority of residents commute up to 70 kilometres to work in towns and cities. The distance between home and work not only imposes high transport costs, but also imposes harsh social and personal costs, including daily threat to the lives of our people through risking accidents. The creation of a sustainable, high-living environment for communities in these settlements requires innovative strategies and programmes.

The committee supports the department regarding the development of a framework on LED’s, because we believe that local government can play an important and central role in promoting job creation and thus boosting the local economy, investing in the basics, that is by providing good quality, cost-effective services, and making local areas places that are pleasant to work and live in.

The department’s refined strategic plan for 2005-10, which was also presented to the committee during the briefing on the Budget Vote, was noted by the committee - particularly regarding the area of strengthening provincial governments and accountability.

We believe that the efforts of building and strengthening local government are highly appreciated. But we believe that the department must pay more attention to strengthening provincial governments, because we believe that they must ensure that they play their role in terms of section 154 of the Constitution. We believe that the department has not paid sufficient attention to this area.

What we see is that the central government goes straight to local government. There is nothing wrong with that, but we believe that you cannot run a municipality in Qaweni, when you are in Tshwane – when you are in Pretoria. We believe that you must capacitate provincial governments to play that role - to ensure that delivery and development happens, so that our intergovernmental system is able to bear results.

Overall, the committee is confident that department programmes have been aligned to government’s broad strategic outlook for 2014, which identifies tangible targets for the end of this second decade, and at the same time the internal capacity of the department must be continuously reviewed and strengthened.

The preparations for local government elections are already underway. We stand on the cusp of a new term of local government and also the balance sheet is blank. This is an opportunity to consolidate the gains made over the past five years and advance to new achievements.

Minister, we are raising a question that we believe that the country must debate, namely whether we should continue with councillors who are part- time, because if we look at the history of local government, we find that local government was a hobby in the old system, in the old apartheid regime. Can we really have cadres who can serve the communities if they are part-time, focusing on their job somewhere and coming to their offices only when they come to meetings?

This is something that we believe should be debated; something that we believe should be engaged upon; something that we believe must be taken up.

The achievement of such gains can never be left to government alone. Instead we are called upon to mobilise our people behind this task. We must strive for unity of purpose around a common vision of a better South Africa, as articulated in the Freedom Charter.

I want to thank the committee for playing a critical role in engaging on this budget debate, and also thank the staff for their contribution in ensuring that we move forward. We are saying: Mintirho yavulavula. [Deeds speak.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP(Ms P Hollander): Thank you, hon member. I have a special announcement to make. I have a concern regarding members being absent without official leave from this Chamber today, when such an important Budget Vote is being discussed. Friday is also a working day; hence members are obliged to attend to their Parliamentary duties. Thirdly, all members, both permanent and special delegates, are to remain in this Chamber until the hon Minister has completed and closed the debate. That I request from all our members. Thank you very much. I now call upon the hon member D Worth to continue the debate.

Mr D A WORTH: Deputy Chairperson, hon Minister, MECs present, the Committee on Provincial and Local Government has made several tours to municipalities in terms of the section 139 intervention. Out of 284 municipalities in the country some 136 have been identified as being in need of assistance. This means that nearly 50% are in some or other crisis, be it administrative or financial or both. To this end the government launched Project Consolidate to support and improve service at local government level. However, whilst Project Consolidate has been based on the needs, backlogs and voters in a specific municipality, various technical teams have been requested to assist in resolving some of these problems.

Whilst the DA welcomes this intervention at these municipalities, hit and run assistance will not be effective, and only by creating the capacity to assist within each province will the specific needs of various municipalities be focused and targeted. There must be sustainability.

The problems experienced at municipalities throughout the country are basically the same, namely, firstly, lack of capacity and expertise. Capacity is a precondition for the proper functioning of local government. However, capacity includes institutional capacity, management capacity, skills development and financial capacity. Many municipalities are still encountering problems with regard to these.

Secondly, incorrect billing - those that complain the most about service delivery are often not prepared to pay for the service delivery they receive, despite being in a position to do so. However, some accounts or billings are so totally incorrect that the public refuses to pay, and municipalities across the provinces continue to struggle with revenue collection. Therefore it is logical that if your municipality has not got money it cannot deliver services.

Thirdly, the enormous salaries paid to officials at municipalities is a cause for concern. The Premier in the Free State, my province, and it is no secret, receives a salary of R837 000 per annum, yet the Chief Operating Officer of Mangaung, that is Bloemfontein and area municipality, receives a salary of R912 269 per annum to name just one example, and there are others in between. As a result, the poorer municipalities have enormous salary bills and no money to develop services and infrastructure. In addition, certain municipal managers have still not signed performance contracts and receive exorbitant bonuses in addition to their exorbitant salaries. Fourthly, there is poor budgeting by municipalities. Often the municipal budgets are based on the maximum income that they estimate will be collected by the number of households in the area, notwithstanding the fact that sometimes only 40% of this revenue will be collected. These same municipalities do not even have indigent registers, and it is not clear how these registers are administered or how often they are updated.

In various municipalities it is not unknown for councillors to owe up to R77 000 for cell phone accounts, as the cell phone accounts are paid by the municipalities direct to the service providers, and there is no control whatsoever. Fraud and corruption also occur frequently, particularly with regard to tenders.

Fifthly, in many municipalities there are tensions and infighting between various factions in the council. These tensions are divisive and have a negative impact on the functioning of this council. These tensions extend to the relationship between councillors and officials and it is the ratepayers who suffer in the end. This lack of delivery has resulted in riots and disturbances in various provinces, particularly in my province, the Free State.

Sixth, there appears to be a lack of understanding by municipal authorities with regard to maintenance of existing infrastructure. Municipalities are hell-bent on spending infrastructure grants on new developments, whilst not budgeting for the replacement of old sewerage pipes, cables, transformers, etc. In one municipality in the Free State three water pumps, which supply the municipal reservoir with water, have broken down due to nonmaintenance and the effluent now flows into nearby rivers. Residents in the town mix their own cement to fill potholes in the streets. Municipal managers say this must not be done, but they have no bitumen to repair the potholes. More needs to be done to align the municipal infrastructure grant programme and the equitable share formula.

Seventh, despite the deficiencies one discovers underspending at municipalities, or that there is in fact a lack of funds at times to implement IDP projects. This highlights a greater need for the alignment of IDPs with provincial growth and development strategies.

Mr Willie Hofmeyr, head of the special investigation unit appealed last year to provincial governments to intervene in the chaotic state of finances with regard to municipalities. Mr Shauket Fakie, Auditor-General, stated in Parliament last year that many municipalities would be unable to meet the obligations, and that this placed enormous challenges in respect of financial viability for local governments in the country.

Whilst the hon Minister is no doubt aware of many of these problems with regard to local government, throwing good money after bad will not solve the problems.Inefficient managers must be fired and officials held accountable. Fraud and corruption must be rooted out. Councillors must have regular meetings with the ratepayers and business organisations to listen to the problems and needs of the community.

It is at this level of local government, the coalface, that delivery and service must take place and it is at this level that the public can and must raise their voices. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mnu Z C NTULI: Mhlonishwakazi Mphathisihlalo, Ngqongqoshe baba uMufamadi, oNgqongqoshe abaphuma ezifundazweni, mabizwasabele ongumqondisi woMnyango, bahlonishwa nani bahlonishwakazi, isisho sabadala sithi kuba mnyama kakhulu uma sekusa. Ngisho ngoba ezikamdala, ezikaThambo lihlaba elimzondayo kade zasho ukuthi abantu bayobusa. Siya khona, ukuthi nje phela siyazi ukuthi uKhongolose unohlelo lokuthi zonke izinto uyogcina ezenzile futhi zenziwe kanjani.

Siyazi baningi abacabanga ukuthi hhayi ngoba nakhu into ayenzekile namhlanje kusho ukuthi ngeke isaphinde yenzeke. Abanye bethu sebekhohliwe ukuthi izakhiweo zohulumeni basekhaya yinto yayizolo lena, yingane ezalwe izolo le. Kodwa manje indlela asebegxekwa ngayo usungafunga uthi uma begxeka kusho ukuthi kwakungangcono bengekho omasipala kumbe ohulumeni basekhaya.

Okufanele sikwazi ukuthi sonke sihlala emawadini, ngisho uMongameli wezwe uhlala ewadini. Ngakho-ke yonke into esikhuluma ngayo la igcina yenzeke ewadini. Sithi-ke thina singuKhongolose ama-IDP awenziwe abantu hhayi ama- consultant. I-Freedom Charter ithi kuyoba khona izindlu nokuphepha kuwonkewonke. Lo hulumeni oholwa nguKhongolose usazozakha izindlu ukuthi nje akuvelwa kanyekanye kungemadlebe embongolo.

USomqulu weNkululeko uthi kuyoba nokuvikeleka nobumnandi, yingakho sithi makube nezakhiwe zama-CPF emphakathini. Phela ubugebengu benzeka emiphakathini lapho sihlala khona futhi izigebengu nezigelekeqe sihlala nazo emphakathini.

USomqulu weNkululeko uthi abantu bayokwabelana ngomnotho waleli zwe, yingakho sesiqalile ukuba nezakhiwo zama-community development workers. Phela yilabo abazoqeqesha umphakathi ukuthki izidingo zawo uzithola kanjani komasipala ababakhele.

Ukuze wonke umphakathi ubambe iqhaza ekuphathweni kwezwe, sithi izakhiwo zama-ward committees azakhiwe ngokushesha lapho bezingakakhiwa khona futhi sithi asiqeqeshwe ngemisebenzi okufanele ziyenze emiphakathini. Kufanele omasipala babe nesikhwama esibhekelela imihlangano yama-ward committees njengokuthi bakwazi ukuthi bathole ukudla nokuthi bakwazi ukuthi babe nezinto zokuhamba uma behambela le mihlangano.

Siyishayela ihlombe imbizo yenyanga ka-Ephreli 2005 lapho uNgqongqoshe wezoHulumeni baseKhaya kwaZulu-Natali uMnu uMabuyakhulu ayememe khona zonke izinhlaka zomphakathi ukuthi zizozwakalisa izimvo noma imibono yazo ngaphambi kokuthi ethule isabelo sezimali salo Mnyango. Sengathi zinganda izimbizo ezifana nale ebimenyezelwe nguMnu Mabuyakhulu kwaZulu-Natali. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Mr Z C NTULI: Madam Chairperson, hon Minister Mufamadi, MECs from provinces and the responsible director of the department, our elders have a saying, “the darkest hour is nearest the dawn”. I say this because the ANC resolved a long time ago that the people shall govern. We are getting there, and should also not forget that the ANC has a programme directive for how things should be done.

We know that there are people who think that if something does not happen today it will never happen. Others have forgotten that the local government administration is a new thing. People are, however, blaming the local governments as if things would have been better without them.

What we should know is that all of us come from the wards, even the President of the country stays in a ward. Therefore everything that we discuss here will happen at ward level. We, as the ANC, propose that the IDP projects should be done by local people and not consultants. The Freedom Charter says there will be houses and security for all. The ANC-led government is going to build houses, but the problem is that things cannot be done at once. The Freedom Charter says there will be security and comfort, and that is why we are proposing CPFs in our communities. Crime takes place in the communities and that is where the culprits stay.

The Freedom Charter says that the people shall share in the wealth of the country, which is why we have started the project that involves community development workers. Those are the people who are going to educate the communities on how to access services from their local municipalities.

In order to ensure public participation ward committee structures should be put in place, particularly in areas lacking such structures and training should be done regarding the work that they would be doing. There must be a budget set aside for ward committee meetings which would help them buy food and arrange transport to attend meetings.

We applaud the fact that an imbizo was called in April 2005 by the KwaZulu- Natal MEC for Local Government and Traditional Affairs where he invited all the community structures to express their views before he tabled his budget for the department. We wish that such izimbizo be encouraged, like the one convened by Mabuyakhulu in KwaZulu-Natal.]

Salga has a pivotal role to play in capacitating and training councillors and municipal officials as well as assisting municipalities to comply with their statutory obligations. Salga has developed programmes to capacitate municipalities to comply with legislation such as the Municipal Finance Management Act and the property rates.

There are numerous capacity challenges at municipal level. Councillors are challenged by the use of consultants during key processes such as tendering.

In terms of its own capacity to provide support, Salga is striving to get council officials to provide technical support to its working groups, yet Salga itself appears to face severe capacity challenges. In many provinces, this shortage may be attributed to the fact that the leadership of Salga also hold senior fulltime posts in municipalities.

Better relations between Salga and provincial government are necessary in order for the stakeholders to conduct oversight and provide capacity to local government. In addition, the internal capacity of Salga’s provincial offices must be more fully developed, both in terms of human resources and financially.

In 2004-05 Salga had many achievements including the completion of a mayoral handbook, a guide on traditional leadership and a national audit on international municipal relations. Salga plays a key role in drawing together leadership at local level. It is difficult for local government to make proper inputs at national and provincial level, and therefore Salga plays a key role in representing their interests.

The Urban Renewal Programme and the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Programme were launched in February 2001 by the President during his state of the nation address, both having a 10-year life span. The programmes seek to assist communities, the private sector, state-owned organisations and community-based organisations to form partnerships to bring sustainable development to previously neglected rural and urban areas.

The programmes will ensure that all citizens have the basic needs and infrastructure in any area in which they may choose to live. The intention is to conduct a sustained campaign against rural and urban poverty and underdevelopment focusing resources of all three spheres of government in a co-ordinated way.

Positive features of a co-ordinated and targeted approach include integration of service delivery and development at local level, decentralisation of decision-making to local level directly aimed at building robust and sustainable municipalities and strong local governments, a demand-driven approach to development and various partnerships necessary to ensure the success of the programme.

The focus on infrastructure at local government level continues and falls within 21 development nodes in both rural and urban areas. The programme runs projects for improving service delivery and alleviating poverty in the 21 nodes. These projects focus on key target groups, the poor, the marginalised, the underdeveloped and the disadvantaged.

Government’s stated vision for the ISRDS is to attain socially cohesive, resilient and stable rural communities that are economically empowered and productive contributing substantially to South Africa’s growth and global competitiveness.

The eight urban nodes are: KwaMashu, Ntuzuma and Inanda in KwaZulu-Natal … [Time expired.]

Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): I again want to draw the attention of hon members to Rule 31: “A member of the Council may not pass between the Chair and a member addressing the Chair.” I think that it’s time now that the members took their Rules books and started reading their Rules of the Chamber. Thank you very much.

Ms Q D MAHLANGU (Gauteng): Deputy Chair, the Minister for Provincial and Local Government, the hon delegates in the NCOP, Salga representatives, my colleagues - MECs for local government, comrades and friends - it’s good to be back in the place I called home when I was a member here for seven years. I do miss the NCOP.

This debate provides provinces with an opportunity to reflect on the state of progress that we are making in our different provinces as it relates to municipalities and how departments at provincial level are poised to support the local sphere of government. In 1955 men and women gathered in Kliptown and adopted the Freedom Charter. Amongst other things they committed South Africa to the following: “The people shall govern. There shall be houses, security and comfort.”

In Gauteng we have managed to rationalise municipalities from 54 to 15 and when we spoke last year in the Budget Vote of the Minister we said that we have managed to rationalise these municipalities. What we were busy with and are currently also busy with is a process of consolidation, which is not easy. When we say that the people shall govern, we must put it into context that in consolidating and making sure that institutions are established in accordance with the will of the people, it is not going to take us overnight to get to where we want to be.

Some municipalities are not functioning as we would like them to be because of lack of leadership - political and administrative – capacity issues, sometimes because of political will. Things that need to be resolved overnight tend to drag and drag because people tend not to agree on very simple things.

So far we have established ward committees at the rate of 90%, which is good, but the functionality of those ward committees remains a challenge. It remains a challenge because ward committees are supposed to be established in accordance with sectors that exist in our communities, but in many instances you find people representing ward committees who are not committed to serve, but are also not understanding their roles clearly.

So, the department has a responsibility working with municipalities in capacitating and improving the capacity of ward committees to work with community members in the IDP processes, in public hearings in particular, but also in making sure that during the budget processes of municipalities communities are informed and they are aware what municipalities are doing.

So we are putting greater emphasis to make sure that we train different community members and sectors so that they understand how important their role is, but also make sure that the introduction of ward committees adds value to the work of ward councillors and ward committees. It is with a sense of pride that I stand before you today to bear testimony that Gauteng has heeded the call of President Thabo Mbeki to recruit community development workers.

Last Saturday we publicly launched the community development workers in the province, where 199 CDWs have been employed, and they are deployed in 133 different wards in the province. Their responsibility is to communicate government programmes, attend to community needs around issues of service delivery and make sure that they unblock service delivery challenges that our communities continue to be faced with, in particular those that have not seen the realities of freedom since 1994.

So far the CDWs have registered positive success in terms of assisting communities in the areas where they live. For example, in Vosloorus the CDW deployed in that area assisted a pensioner who was looking after eight HIV- positive family members. The pensioner could not access a government grant, but, after the intervention of the CDW, that pensioner is able to have a grant and also has been given an ID as a result. These are the foot soldiers of our communities and they have managed in many areas to assist community members with a lot of good work.

What is important is that we must note that CDWs must understand what their role is, that they are not belonging to any political party, nor are they politicians themselves. If they have ambitions of becoming politicians they must resign and accordingly apply or stand for positions. But they are there to serve the community members, irrespective of which political party they belong to, their religious and other affiliations. They must also serve people with humility and dignity in line with Batho Pele principles.

The municipal infrastructure grant, I think, is aimed at making sure that the previously disadvantaged areas in our community are given resources to improve the neglected areas in terms of infrastructure, whether be it road networks, storm water drainage and others, including the high mast lighting and so forth. In the province we were given about R704 million or so, 88,7% in terms of expenditure, which is not good. I am happy to report that we are putting mechanisms in place to make sure that we are working with Old Mutual to improve the capacity of municipalities to spend, but also spend according to quality and to deliver the project on time.

Last year the Minister announced Project Consolidate in terms of which municipalities that were struggling were going to be given hands-on support, and it’s important to note that in Gauteng we have five of the municipalities, beginning with Johannesburg, which is one of the biggest municipalities in the province, Emfuleni Local Municipality, Kungwini, Mogale and Merafong.

These municipalities will be assisted in different areas that they are struggling with ranging from building systems and associated problems to issues of maximising revenue collections, institutional capacity, political and administrative leadership. We have identified things that are going to have a significant impact in communities. We are beginning to see results in this regard.

In the province of Gauteng we are working with all departments to give Project Consolidate a meaning that is going to contribute to changing people’s lives for the better. That also includes the provision of housing in the identified municipalities, provision of clinics where there are none and where there are, those that need to be improved will be attended to, provision of schools and other infrastructure projects in some of the above- mentioned areas, but also in other parts of the province where those municipalities are not part of Project Consolidate.

In addition to these we are going to have a summit on the 30th of May. We call it an intergovernmental in infrastructure summit where we will be looking at the challenges and backlogs infrastructure in the province with the aim of prioritising the immediate infrastructure across the two spheres. It is going to help us to target better, but also to be able to prioritise.

The departmental support to municipalities is going to be finalised as soon as we have finished discussions and what is going to be done by whom. In relation to the work we are doing with the South African Institute of Chartered Accountants getting retired auditors who are going to be doing work with municipalities with the assistance of DBSA and other financial institutions, we are progressing very well.

We constantly visit communities in the province of Gauteng in the light of what is happening throughout the country during our monthly imbizos to get first-hand information about the needs of our people and the challenges that they are continuing to be faced with. But also municipalities continue to do the same. Apart from the Premier’s imbizo the department is also working with communities, either by responding to the letters sent by the Minister to us or sent by the Premier. The information we are gathering from imbizos has helped us conduct a customer satisfaction survey, which seeks to help us further identify areas of interventions which are going to change people’s lives.

It is important to note that amongst the big municipalities in the province it is the very small municipalities that have registered positive gains in their communities, but I think what the survey is showing us is that community members expect municipalities to create jobs because that is the challenge that they have. They also expect municipalities to provide them with housing, health facilities and other related services and other things that are affecting them directly on a daily basis.

We are inspired by the readiness of our communities in the province to partner with government in the fight to eradicate unemployment and create work in accordance with the manifesto of the ANC. A strong relationship is critical to ensure that the three spheres of government are complementary and supportive of one another. The challenge of strengthening intergovernmental relations is central to our efforts towards integrated development planning.

We are going to be having public hearings on the municipal integrated development plan on the 27th and the 28th in the province in line with what the Minister was talking about earlier on. I am hopeful that the work that we have been able to do so far in the province, namely aligning, will produce positive results. Making sure that after the state of the nation address and the Premier’s address, when we comment in the department, that we ask municipalities to align and make their comments around those things. I am hopeful that the coming hearings are going to bear testimony that in the province we have gone a long way. Yet there are areas calling for improvement. I share the concern raised by the hon member who spoke before me. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr C JOHNSON (Salga): Madam Deputy Chairperson, hon Minister Mufamadi, MECs present, hon members, ladies and gentlemen and comrades, the Constitution of South Africa promotes the socio-economic rights of all its citizens, rich and poor. Additionally, the institutional architecture of our country establishes an autonomous, interrelated, interdependent sphere of local government, and a range of oversight bodies, including the NCOP and the Human Rights Commission, whose responsibilities include monitoring the provision of constitutionally mandated basic services. Given our historical context, this is particularly important to ensure that the poor, and the vulnerable have access to such services.

Salga proudly supports the Minister for Provincial and Local Government in his speech made to this House on 18 May 2005. He said:

Our ideal type municipality is one which has political and administrative leadership, with capacity for taking a strategic role in the formulation and execution of development strategies.

In addition, good municipal governance is built upon an effective interface between councillors and officials, strong links between financial and technical support functions, and an appropriate organisational structure. With challenges like the high turnover rate of senior officials, indigent policies and basic services infrastructure, backlogs, proper billing systems, debt collection and outstanding debtors, the biggest question in the mind of many is whether the municipalities have the capacity to manage resources efficiently to deliver outstanding services to all our communities.

Local government receives 4,7% of the national fiscus for 2005, with the total allocation rising from R14,8 billion in 2004-05 to R17,2 billion in 2005-06. Salga also acknowledges that a total of R5,4 billion additional funding over three years from 2005-06 will be allocated to local government. This amount will be made available to fund operational expenditure by R3,7 billion, and municipal infrastructure by R1,7 billion.

Although the additional R2,4 billion is allocated to local government in the 2005-06 budget, it should be recognised that municipalities’ own revenues constitute about 90% of total local government expenditure. As such, many municipalities with low revenue rates in capacity are still finding it difficult to meet their developmental mandate, and thus the provision of free basic services in those areas is still a great challenge.

The local government sphere has gone through remarkable changes in which over 843 municipalities have merged into 284 municipalities. This was done with minimum disruption to service provision, a feat that is the envy of many countries. Much credit must go to the leadership of various municipalities in the country - nobody switched off the lights. This was a formidable task that involved the merger of political, administrative and complex institutional systems with disparate legacies that served the apartheid system of exclusion.

In addition, this was done in the context of extending services to previously excluded communities. Another remarkable achievement is the cleaning up of the intergovernmental fiscal system from a chaotic, untransparent system to one that is equitable, formula- driven, predictable and transparent.

Further, the financing of infrastructure based on Mic, has been simplified into a transparent formula-based system. The Mic introduced in the 2004-05 budget year aims to rationalise the number of conditional grants within the system of intergovernmental transfer, and create flexible capital funding sources, which municipalities can freely allocate to the prioritised IDP needs.

This now allows municipalities to better align the infrastructure investments with the local priorities. Much of this credit goes to Minister Manuel and Minister Mufamadi for revising the system of intergovernmental flows to local government.

Further, Salga supports the reviewed local government equitable share allocation formula, as it is a simple calculation of equitable share allocation to municipalities, by taking into account and ensuring the balance and demand for basic services with a capacity to raise revenue, required to provide such services. Further work is necessary to accurately measure revenue-raising capacity, defining the notion of development, the development factor in the formula, and beginning to estimate the real cost of service provision and infrastructure investment for local government.

Indeed, if we do this, we believe that local government’s share of the national fiscus should rise faster; given the enormous demands to address service delivery backlogs, in poor communities.

Salga is cautious that a simplistic, demand-driven approach raises numerous risks, and may not be sustainable. In this regard sustainable service delivery must be underpinned by local economic growth. Creating the enabling conditions for such growth is a joint task and a challenge, given the structural and institutional problems we face at the local level.

Capacities of municipalities are uneven across the country. This is a function of the competition for scarce skills, the inadequacy of systems and the complexity of the delivery environment. We appreciate that government, over the past four years, has committed funds to capacity- building and the restructuring initiatives.

The launching of Project Consolidate on 29 October 2004 is an excellent programme to utilise a national skills base to address capacity constraints. As mentioned by Minister Mufamadi, R10,3 billion has since 2000 been allocated to basic services and an infrastructure grant. But due to lack of capacity in municipalities and the sometimes unco-ordinated process of the transfer of funds, municipalities still have large amounts of rollovers on their capital budgets.

The finalisation of the process of reviewing the local government fiscal framework, which focuses on the reform of regional services council levies, the introduction of new property rating and mitigating the financial impact of the restructuring of electricity distribution, is crucial. Alternatives to the RSC levies should not impact on the independence of district and metropolitan municipalities.

In formulating alternatives to the RSC levies, we should ensure that the tax base is relatively stable and can be easily estimated. In this regard we would encourage a much closer working relationship between DPLG, National Treasury and Salga, to formulate alterative revenue resources to the RSC levies.

Salga has over the past two years conducted budget week workshops across all provinces, with the aim of highlighting local government achievements, best practices and investment plans for the medium term. These forums highlighted numerous challenges that characterised the struggles, at the local government level.

Some of the common challenges that arose from the budget discussions last week included the following: the compilation of a credible, realistic and cash-based budget aligned to the IDP is a serious challenge. This highlights the age-old needs to economy question where needs exceed the availability of local resources. We are faced with the difficult task of addressing communities, and having to tell them that their needs cannot be financed because of budget constraints.

There is a poor availability of data. This hinders effective planning. Often the data sets used by various levels of government are different, thus leading to conflicting priorities for investment.

Further, the ongoing investment on capital expenditure has placed significant pressure on the recurrent expenses, and contingent liabilities. We are mindful of not investing in infrastructure that we cannot afford to maintain.

Community participation is also another question in the budget process, and this is uneven. Poor, particularly rural municipalities where distances are vast, find it difficult to conduct public participation.

Further we have not mastered the art of community participation, and we need to move away from simply giving communities the impression that there is an endless pot of resources, to one were we can communicate that the resource … [Time expired.] [Applause.] Mr K SINCLAIR: Hon Chairperson and hon Minister, I woke up this morning as a proud South African with the realisation of what we have achieved in South Africa. I am proud about what we have built in 11 years in this country. I am proud of how the people of South Africa pulled South Africa together after decades and centuries of oppression and hardship.

I am so proud that I even acknowledge the fact that opposition parties, like the DA, have a role to play in South Africa … [Laughter.] [Applause.] … although it’s very weak, and sometimes very feeble. I am so proud that I am even prepared to do introspection in terms of the debate that we are having today, which is local government.

Hon Minister, I really believe that it is time that in terms of that all of us ask serious questions. I just want to raise three issues this morning. The first one is the conduct and the behaviour of councillors and officials in local government. One sometimes gets the feeling that many of them are doing extremely good work. But unfortunately the few bad apples are compromising the good work done by the others.

Some of these people are untouchable, they act like warlords. Some of them act as if they own the community, the council or the society. Because of that I think it is important to listen to what the President in his annual address in KwaZulu-Natal last year said when he addressed the NCOP.

The President said that the implementation of the concept of a people’s contract is best effected at local level. This is where the leadership has to maintain daily contact with the masses of our people. So when we talk about a people’s contract we must surely focus on how it has been effected and realised at local government level.

The second issue is the role of Salga in the NCOP. I am very happy that Salga is here this morning. But this House is a get-together place of the difference spheres of government. Salga must not only be here when we discuss local government. They must be here when we discuss housing, water and roads as well.

The third issue is the role of provinces and the role of MECs. I am very happy to see some MECs here this morning. But it seems as if provinces which have the most problems are not here. I can only see the Western Cape, I do not even see the chairperson here.

The reality is that this is the House where the MECs must come and address the issues, and come and listen to what the members of Council are saying. I must say on a lighter note that it seems that if your surname is Mahlangu, that is the easiest way to become an MEC of a province. [Laughter.] In conclusion, maybe the answer lies in what chapter three of the Constitution tells us - the chapter on co-operative government - and specifically the principles in section 41. There are about 9 or 10 of them. For me principle 41(1)(h) is important:

All spheres of government and all organs of state within each sphere must co-operate with one another in mutual trust and good faith by – (i) fostering friendly relationships; (ii) assisting and supporting one another; (iii) informing one another of, and consulting one another on matters of common interest …

And I can continue, because sometimes I get the feeling that the first and second tiers of government are adhering to those principles, but the third tier of government is not very comfortable in doing that. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, I must place on record that I am not a member of the Select Committee on Local Government, neither am I speaking on behalf of myself, but I am simply here to read the speech of the MEC for Provincial and Local Government in the Free State province, by his instruction.

The Minister has, in his response to the state of the nation address, alluded to various programmes that impact on the work that we are supposed to do. It is therefore very important that in support of this Vote, we refer to recent developments in our province in relation to these programmes.

In a month’s time our people in various localities will gather to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the Freedom Charter, as crafted by the People’s Assembly in Kliptown 50 years ago. It is therefore an obligation on us as the servants of the people to ensure that we consolidate the people’s power, especially at the local government level, by creating systems and mechanisms that support sustainable service delivery to our people in general, and the poorest of the poor in particular.

The Free State province is amongst the poorest provinces in the country, and in an effort to deal with this state of poverty, the President of the country has designated the area of Maluti-a-Phofung local municipality in the Thabo Mofutsanyana district as a nodal point in terms of the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Programme.

This has proved to be a panacea in ensuring an integrated approach by all stakeholders in the province in our attempt to achieve sustainable service delivery in this area. Enormous resources have been mobilised and utilised in this area to create jobs and harness local innovations.

Whilst government continues to increase resources channelled to local government for accelerated service delivery the challenge remains that of the municipalities to utilise those resources. Our province, in fulfilling its mandate to support and build capacity in local government, has engaged in extensive capacity-building programmes, which involve both the political and administrative leadership of municipalities.

This includes drafting economically viable tariffs, development of budgets and compilation of financial statements and maintenance of financial records, project management, and the implementation of practical performance management systems.

The challenge of implementing the new financial reforms brought about by the Municipal Finance Management Act in municipalities has also dictated that tailor-made capacity-building programmes be implemented in conjunction with the provincial treasury, to ensure that municipalities develop a strong financial management capacity.

This House is aware of media reports on the social disturbances, which engulfed some municipalities in our province. Those municipalities, which have substantially high levels of service delivery and infrastructure backlogs, are now receiving systematic support, which is rendered through Project Consolidate.

The Minister has already alluded to the fact that this programme is aimed at getting national and provincial spheres of government, together with key partners and stakeholders outside government, to find new creative, practical and impact-orientated modes of supporting local government.

Twelve municipalities in the province are the beneficiaries of this programme, and we have already identified delivery gaps and designed a programme of action in response to those challenges. In three municipalities, service delivery facilitators have already been deployed in keeping with the spirit of Project Consolidate, and this process is starting to bear fruits.

The province is providing focused financial and technical support to these municipalities. The Integrated Development Plans remain the epicentre of strategic planning in local government. The recent provincial IDP hearings have revealed the following: There is a growing local ownership for the IDP processes in the wider communities. There is a significant capacity in most municipalities to develop strategic IDPs. There is a better streamlining of both provincial growth and development strategies and local integrated development plans. Lastly, that the spatial development framework of most municipalities reflect the intentions of the national spatial development framework.

In partnership with the Development Bank of Southern Africa, the province is engaged in developing key sector plans, such as the housing sector plan, which will be working jointly with municipalities.

Public participation, which is a noble intention to engage organs of civil society, is at the centre of sustainable development in local government, as espoused in the Freedom Charter that “the people shall govern”. The Minister has already alluded to the recent national conference on ward committees that was held to review the efficacy of these ward committees in our local government system.

In our province, we have been able to establish all 293 ward committees, but the challenge has always been their effective engagement with government due to a lack of resources. We are working with municipalities to ensure that these ward committees are capacitated and resourced to carry out their mandate effectively.

The emerging cadres of community development workers will also work in close collaboration with the ward committees. In the province the first intake of 96 community development workers have already been recruited and enrolled with further education and training colleges. We hope these cadres will be able to assist government in providing ample information on government programmes and delivery to communities.

Government must project a single face to the communities, who often are less bothered about which sphere of government is providing a particular service, as long as it is delivered. It is therefore imperative for us to aspire to the provisions of the Intergovernmental Relations Framework Bill.

In the province, the provincial government engages local government through a structure called the Premier’s co-ordinating committee, which is a co- ordinating structure for intergovernmental relations. We are busy establishing mechanisms to engage traditional leaders in a similar structural arrangement.

It is our considered view that the new local government system, which is about to be five years old, is on course. It is on course because people are starting to realise their long-term aspirations, as municipalities countrywide become construction sites of both physical and social infrastructure. I support the policy statement presented by our Minister. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr A L MOSEKI: Chairperson, Comrade Minister, provincial representatives, MECs and departmental officials, we are gathered in this House this morning to debate the budget of the Department of Provincial and Local Government. This budget is about bread and butter issues that affect all citizens of this country across the spheres of governance.

In his state of the nation address on 11 February 2005, the President of the Republic of South Africa had this to say:

The Freedom Charter is the foundation on which we base our programme of action to transform our country economically and socially.

What we understand from this is that departments, such as this one whose budget we are debating today, are strategically located to ensure that programmes that we are developing to transform the country economically are developed and implemented. As we proceed to struggle against the apartheid legacy, it is important to mobilise all the people of this country to work in the local sphere of government, because the huge challenge that faces this sphere of government affects every household in areas where we reside.

It is important, because the need for basics such as water, electricity, roads and other essential services affect us all. Without a well- capacitated provincial and local government, the vision of a better life for all will not be realised. We, therefore, urge this department to accelerate and intensify the programme of capacitating our councillors and officials at that level.

By so saying, we are not even suggesting that the department is not doing anything. In terms of what we could gather as we interacted with the department, I think what the chairperson of the committee said earlier on is a true picture of what is happening. It is clear that the department is doing a lot to ensure that there is capacity at that level, but the point that we are raising is that we need to move with more speed to ensure that the capacity that is so essential is actually given to our councils.

The other challenge that is confronting local government is the issue of infrastructure. Wherever you go in this country, one of the biggest challenges in all our municipalities is infrastructure. Steps are being taken to address these challenges.

The problem that we seem to be sitting with is the question of speed, but also the question of the quality of the infrastructure that is being built at that level. We are saying that it is important for the department and the Minister to rise to this challenge and to ensure that the infrastructure being built at that level are structures that can last and deliver quality services to our communities.

The third challenge is about local economic development. As the government we are saying that we need to eradicate poverty and unemployment in our country. Local economic development can play a very critical role in addressing that.

As one moves around it is very clear that the local economic development set-ups in many towns of our country are still controlled, by and large, by the previously advantaged communities, and the previously disadvantaged communities are not yet really playing the role that they are supposed to be playing at this juncture of our democracy. We, therefore, suggest that this budget, as a transformation tool, should be used to uplift, together with other pieces of legislature, the previously disadvantaged section of our society in order to ensure that they get involved in local economic development.

Job creation remains the biggest challenge. It becomes very important for this department, working together with the provincial government and the local municipality, to ensure that we deal with this problem.

We want to conclude by saying that we support what the chairperson of the committee has said, namely that it is our observation, as we interact with the department, that the department is doing a lot of work to address challenges that are confronting us. However, a lot remains to be done. We want to assure the department that we are partners and that we will continue to support the department to deal with these challenges as we propose. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr J F VAN WYK (Northern Cape): Chairperson, hon Minister, MECs and members, local government is currently one of the topics dominating public debate in our country. This indeed emphasises the importance of this sphere of government, as it is the one closest to the people and where most of actual development and service delivery is taking place.

At the same time, this debate highlights the challenges facing this sphere of government and the fact that the struggle for the liberation of our people from poverty and underdevelopment is far from over.

There is a tendency to think of local government as of least importance, which is totally wrong. We need to put more emphasis on the local sphere of government. Minister, we therefore welcome the special focus by national government on municipalities, through the various efforts you and the chairperson of the select committee mentioned.

It is indeed true that some municipalities are grappling with a lot of challenges, including high levels of service and infrastructure backlogs and problems related to the lack of financial management skills, amongst other things.

In many cases these and other problems at municipal level lead to many complaints, and in some cases to violent protest action. As the Northern Cape, we also had our share of protest action. Complaints about municipal services and housing also overshadowed the recent presidential imbizo in the Northern Cape.

There is indeed a need firstly to improve municipal leadership and administration; secondly to establish proper anticorruption programmes at local level; thirdly to strengthen the provision of basic services; and fourthly, to ensure implementation of reliable billing systems and development of proper infrastructure at some municipalities. However, it is not all doom and gloom at the local sphere of government.

Those prophets of doom, some of whom are sitting on these benches, are wrong and tend to forget certain important facts. They should bear in mind that this new system of developmental local government was only introduced in December 2000, and in some cases even in December 2001.

Notwithstanding this short period, we have successfully completed the amalgamation of previously segregated municipalities and communities created by the apartheid system. We have delivered basic services such as water, electricity and sanitation to millions of people who never had these services before 1994.

With the promulgation of the Local Government: Municipal Property Rates Act in May 2004, the basic policies and legislative framework for local government are in place and provide a sound basis for implementation and strengthening of local government.

These are remarkable achievements, and councillors, local municipalities and local communities played an important role in this. It is indeed true that our current councillors are pioneers in this new system of local government and should be applauded for their contribution.

Taking into consideration these achievements, as well as the challenges facing local government, there is a need now to consolidate and to strengthen local government as an institution.

As provincial government and municipalities of the Northern Cape, we want to applaud and welcome the launch of Project Consolidate. We will have our provincial launch next week on 26 May, and we can assure you that we are on target in terms of preparedness for implementation and the “quick wins”.

A total of 18 municipalities in our province will take part in this two- year exercise, with its hands-on support to municipalities. We are very pleased especially with the inclusion in the presidential developmental nodes of the urban and rural nodes of Kgalagadi and Galeshewe, as part of this project.

We look forward to working closely with your team of national service facilitators deployed in our province, and to participating in the upcoming municipal imbizos. We have already started to restructure our own provincial government outreach programme, called “Cabinet meets the people”, to the same format that is used in the imbizos. It is also true that the annual performance assessment of municipalities, which is a yardstick of delivery of services by the municipalities, has identified a few municipalities in our province that perform at a very low level of their allocated functions. These municipalities, some of which fall outside Project Consolidate, will need special attention from the provincial department. We want the kind of support that will allow us to knock on the door of the Minister, if there is a need to do so.

Many municipalities in the Northern Cape are faced with a very low local revenue base, high levels of poverty and unemployment, and with the challenge of servicing small, highly underdeveloped settlements spread over vast distances. Some of these factors are not always properly considered when the allocation of funds to the Northern Cape, through the equitable share, is made.

Now, Minister, the men in the Northern Cape are not doing their job properly, and this contributes to a decrease in our population, which has a negative impact on our equitable share. Maybe we can learn some lessons from the Mahlangus.

As role-players in local government, it is important that we understand that in our search for solutions to the challenges we face, we need to put the people we serve at the centre. It is, therefore, important that we strengthen the structures that were established to encourage local communities to participate in decision-making with regard to budgeting, integrated developmental planning, as well as the monitoring and implementation thereof, amongst other things.

Accountability of councillors to communities, individuals and organised structures that elected them is just as crucial. It is only when we have better-functioning ward committees that we will be better informed about local priorities, that is the concerns and expectations of our people.

Communities would also be more disciplined and less disruptive if they are aware of the situation of resources constraints in which municipalities have to bring about development and deliver services. Ward committees are important mechanisms in ensuring community participation.

The two-day conference on community participation provided a valuable opportunity to make a proper assessment of and to determine the way forward in participatory democracy at local level, in the spirit and vision of the Freedom Charter, that “the people shall govern”. The building of strong, functional and effective ward committees will, therefore, be one of our main priorities during this financial year.

If we want to turn around the negative perceptions surrounding local government, there have to be strong community outreach programmes. It was through community outreach programmes such as the imbizos that the concept of community development workers was introduced, with their role to address the problem of access to information at local level.

As a province, we will be strengthening our team of nearly 200 CDWs, who are going to get their certificates late in August this year, with an additional 100 during the current financial year. It is important that there should be maximum utilisation of CDWs at local level. Community development workers can also be utilised to strengthen certain capacity problems, including the sustainability of ward communities. We can testify to some very good practices, with examples in the Northern Cape in this regard.

Let me conclude by referring to a book called A Town Like Alice - and it is not Alice in Wonderland - by a British author, Neville Shute. The heroine in this story lived in a small town near a larger town called Alice Springs, in a northwestern district of Australia. The residents of the small town always had to go to Alice Springs for certain services and for entertainment. The heroine of the story’s solution was to develop her own small town into a town like Alice Springs.

As the Northern Cape, we are looking forward to working closely with you in turning each and every town, village and small settlement in the Northern Cape into a town like Alice Springs. The foundation has been laid, and the challenge is now to strengthen and to consolidate. We support this Budget Vote. Thank you very much, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Mnr J W LE ROUX: Agb Voorsitter, agb Minister, kollegas en LUR’e, ek wil net graag begin deur te sê dat die agb Sinclair vir die eerste keer ’n sinvolle bydrae in hierdie Huis gemaak het. Die DA is inderwaarheid baie relevant. Minister Mufamadi, ek weet nie of u opgelet het nie, maar die provinsie wat werklik die swaarste kry op derde vlak het nie een verteenwoordiger hier nie, en ek dink dit is baie swak dat hier niemand van Bisho is nie.

Baie lede van hierdie Huis was vroeër in hul loopbane betrokke in plaaslike bestuur, en ek is seker u sal saamstem dat effektiewe plaaslike bestuur ’n voorvereiste is vir dienslewering en vooruitgang. Ek wil ook graag die direkteur-general en haar span gelukwens met uitstekende pogings om derde vlak regering te ondersteun, maar ongelukkig laat swak ANC-rade en amptenare u telkens in die steek.

Dit is so dat omtrent die helfte van all plaaslike rade ernstige probleme ondervind, en in baie gevalle het rade reeds in duie gestort. Elke dag hoor ons van onbeholpe rade wat die gemeenskap teleurstel, en die gewone burgers kom al meer in opstand. Brandende bande en ontstoke skares is aan die orde van die dag.

In die meeste gevalle misluk plaaslike rade omdat daar ’n tekort aan ondervinding en vaardighede is. Dit het tot gevolg dat verkeerde besluite geneem word, en dat basiese bestuursfoute gemaak word. In die metro’s is die probleem sistemies, en ek kom later daarby.

Wat in die praktyk gebeur het was dat die ANC dwarsdeur die land met verbysterende spoed bekwame amptenare, met jare se ondervinding, vervang het. Die nuwe amptenare is in baie gevalle persone met die nodige kwalifikasies, maar sonder enige ondervinding. Hulle is inderwaarheid in die diep kant ingegooi. Voeg by hierdie formule ANC-raadslede wat suiwer politieke besluite neem, en dan het ons ‘n resep vir mislukking.

’n Tweede aspek wat groot kommer wek, is die kwessie van korrupsie in derdevlakregering. Dit lyk of die skelms besef dat dit maklik is om belastingbetalers se geld te steel, en dat hulle in die meeste gevalle nie gevang sal word nie.

Dit is verstommend dat in gevalle van blatante korrupsie die skuldiges slegs in ander poste ontplooi word. Die Baviaanspoort-geval is ’n goeie voorbeeld. Munisipale bestuurders word reuse-bedrae betaal, en burgermeesters mors geld met oorgawe. Die vermorsing in Rustenburg en Bitou is enkele voorbeelde. Die ruim begroting, en veral die bedrae wat aan infrastruktuur bestee word, is baie positief. Indien die Konsolidasieprojek slaag en provinsies probleme vroeër identifiseer, is daar tog hoop. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr J W LE ROUX: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, colleagues and MECs, I would just like to begin by saying that the hon Sinclair has made a meaningful contribution in this House for the first time. The DA is in fact very relevant. Minister Mufamadi, I do not know whether you have noticed, but the province that is really struggling the most at the third tier does not have a single representative here, and I think it is highly unsatisfactory that there is no one from Bisho here.

Many members of this House were involved in local government earlier on in their careers, and I am sure that you will agree that effective local government is a prerequisite for service delivery and prosperity. I would also like to congratulate the Director-General and her team on excellent attempts made at supporting third-tier government, but unfortunately incompetent ANC councils and officials often let you down.

It is a fact that approximately half of all local councils are encountering serious problems, and in many cases local councils have already disintegrated. Every day we hear about inept councils who disappoint the community, and ordinary citizens are starting to revolt. Burning tyres and angry crowds are the order of the day.

In most cases local councils fail because there is a lack of experience and skills. As a result of this, incorrect decisions are taken and basic managerial mistakes are made. In the metros the problem is systemic, and I shall come to that later.

What happened in practice was that the ANC, throughout the country and at an alarming rate, replaced competent officials with years of experience. The new officials in many cases are persons with the necessary qualifications, but without any experience. They have in fact been thrown in at the deep end. Add to this formula ANC councillors who make purely political decisions, and then we have a recipe for failure.

A second aspect which is causing much concern is the question of corruption in third-tier government. It seems as though the rogues realise that it is easy to steal taxpayers’ money, and that in most cases, they will not be caught.

It is astounding that in cases of blatant corruption the guilty parties are simply deployed to other posts. The Baviaanspoort case is a good example. Municipal managers are paid enormous amounts, and mayors waste money with wild abandon. The waste at Rustenburg and Bitou are examples of this. The generous budget and especially the amounts being spent on infrastructure are very positive. Should Project Consolidate succeed and provinces identify problems at an earlier stage, there is still hope.]

As far as the metros are concerned, it is clear that the current system of a mayor and his committee taking decisions without proper consultation and behind closed doors is a reckless way to manage large diverse metros.

In the case of the Nelson Mandela Metro, it is clear that the system is not functioning. The Nelson Mandela Metro includes two large towns, namely, Uitenhage and Despatch, situated 40km from Port Elizabeth. In Port Elizabeth itself, the mayor was chased out of a township and his vehicle stoned. At present, residents are blocking main roads with burning tyres and the situation is so serious that the premier flew in from East London to try and diffuse the situation. We agree with the premier that the Nelson Mandela Metro is incapable of handling its housing grants. She said so last night.

In Uitenhage, the lack of service delivery is a major problem. Three hundred homes – you must listen to this – were built by the metro months ago, and are still standing empty. The houses are situated in a politically sensitive area called Kabah-Langa. At this very moment, the homes are being stripped. All pipes and plumbing as well as doors have been stolen, and the roofs are disappearing. At present, there is a damaging audit report being kept secret by the mayor, and the Bisho government has stopped all housing funding to the metro. Last night, the premier announced the further grant of R177 million for housing. Pouring money on the problem will not help, simply because the problem is actually bad management. I seriously request the Minister to act in this regard.

Currently in Uitenhage, we have no serviced residential plots, and only one large industrial site is for sale. This information was given to me by the official in charge who, incidentally, knows nothing of what is going on in Uitenhage. Uitenhage has a large commonage and the lack of serviced land is totally unacceptable.

The metro’s problems can only be solved if a sub-council is established for Uitenhage and Despatch, and we ask the Minister’s assistance in this regard.

Lastly, and this is very important, can the Minister tell the House when the local government elections will be held, and why the date is a secret? Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I want to recognise one of the former senior members of this House, Dr Conroy. He used to represent Gauteng in the NCOP. We recognise you, Dr Conroy. [Applause.] Ms F NYANDA: Chairperson, hon Minister, MECs, hon members and representatives of Salga, our late president, O R Tambo, spelt out the true meaning of the Freedom Charter to our country and people in the January 8 statement of 1980 to mark the 25th anniversary of the charter during what was proclaimed the year of the workers.

We will, therefore, have to assess the progress we have made in implementing the decision we took at our 51st conference in 2002. We will also have to assess the progress we have made towards the achievement of the goals contained in the Reconstruction and Development Programme, particularly as they relate to the accomplishment of the task of our second decade of liberation.

We have to pay particular attention to the further strengthening of our system of local government, which is critical to the success of our reconstruction and development; the building of a developmental state capable of implementing the objectives of our national democratic revolution, including the creation of a better life for all; addressing the legacy of apartheid, colonialism and patriarchy; and ensuring that we act as a driving force for socio-economic transformation.

As a result of the legacy of apartheid rule, many newly-established municipalities lack the resources and capacity to meet their development challenges, and ensure the amalgamation of the previously segregated communities and municipalities, deal with the management of transition and interim structures, and the inauguration of the new system of developmental local government.

As we enter the second decade of democracy, the basic policy framework on local government is in place. The housing backlog has been estimated to be about 1,4 million to 3 million units, and there are between 5 million and 7 million people living in shacks. About 60% of the population had no access to electricity, whereas 16 million people had no access to clean water and 22 million people did not have access to adequate sanitation. About 1,9 million housing subsidies have been provided, 1,6 million houses have been built for the poor, 90% of households have been electrified, and 9 million additional people now have access to clean water.

We will not be sidetracked by detractors on the right and left of the political spectrum. We will develop skills and capacitate the programmes needed to transform our country, especially provincial and local government. Work will have to be done to ensure that the gains that workers made during the first decade of freedom are strengthened and consolidated.

There is a need to accelerate the provision of services to the communities and households that were excluded before, particularly areas that have the greatest need, and improve the quality of services that have been provided, for example in rural areas.

All these emphasise the importance of deliberations and decisions of our movement on the future of our country, and therefore the need for us to approach this work with the greatest seriousness. We need to review systems at local government level and uproot crime and corruption. The committee supports the budget. [Applause.]

Mr J L MAHLANGU (Mpumalanga): Chairperson, Minister, director-general and officials of the Department of Provincial and Local Government, colleagues, the December 2000 local government elections ushered in an exciting period as we ventured into unchartered waters and started a new system of local government. The strides we have made since then make us proud. Such achievements, in a short period, are unprecedented anywhere in the world.

The past four years and a few months have seen democracy being deeply entrenched in our communities through local government. More than any time in our country, local government is being judged on its ability to deliver services, promote social economic development, deepen democracy and govern effectively.

When we began the long journey in 2000, we were cognisant of the fact that along the way we would have to revisit some of our plans and strategies to make sure that we remain on the right path. This we have done without failure and, where necessary, we have introduced new programmes such as the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Programme, the municipal infrastructure grant, Project Consolidate and others that have all been aimed at making sure that we have remained on course.

Transforming local government with its boundaries, powers and functions, financial, technical and administrative problems has been a laborious task. Our integrated development programmes, IDPs, remain an area of priority to us. The reality of some of the current IDPs is that they are in debt, and they are studies that are bulky, cumbersome and not user-friendly. As a department we have proposed a simplified format, which has been adopted by municipalities and will be implemented in 2006-07. The new format was tested on the Emakhazeni municipal 2004-05 IDPs. This simplified format is not only user-friendly but it is also easy to understand.

Municipalities continue to be faced with problems of the exodus of skilled personnel who leave to seek better prospects and opportunities. These problems are exacerbated by the fact that it is extremely difficult to attract skilled personnel to small municipalities. Often, the salaries are not competitive and a small town does not have the kind of attraction that would appeal to skilled people. This, inevitably, affects service delivery.

We welcome the rolling out of Project Consolidate. Eleven municipalities from Mpumalanga have been identified by the national Ministry and are all involved in early-deliverable quick-wins. These municipalities are Albert Luthuli, Dipaleseng, Dr Moroka, Emalahleni, Govan Mbeki, Greater Tubatse, Lekwa, Mkhondo, Msukalikwa, Nkomazi and Thembisile. These 11 municipalities have projects that are addressing service delivery challenges such as noncollection of refuse and waste, the unhygienic bucket system and the nonexistence of sanitation, bad quality of roads that negatively affect local economic development as well as inadequate water service and acute water shortage.

We are presently focusing on early deliverables, which we will complete before the end of June. These early deliverables are the eradication of the bucket toilet system in Dipaleseng; municipal infrastructure projects in Dr Moroka; emergency water provision in rural communities; provision of refuse removal trucks in identified municipalities; developing an anticorruption good governance strategy for all municipalities in the province; developing, meeting and implementing a communications plan for Project Consolidate; establishing 330 ward committees in the province; recruiting, training and deploying our first intake of community development workers, CDWs. These deliverables are 90% ready.

Early this year we embarked on a project that many said was ambitious. That project was aimed at eradicating 22 000 bucket toilets in the province and replacing them with VIP waterborne toilet systems. Whilst I was listening to hon Le Roux, I just thought that perhaps one should dedicate or create a museum and name it after him, and keep all these buckets there because this is the legacy that they have left behind. The following are the areas which we have identified as still having bucket toilets: Lekwa, Albert Luthuli, Govan Mbeki, Dipaleseng, Msukalikwa and Delmas.

The provincial department, together with the national department and the municipalities, have made funds available to deal with the social ills. During 2004-05 we have had to make a few interventions in municipalities such as Ehlanzeni, Thembisile and Thaba Cheu. Good progress has been made at Ehlanzeni and I can report to this House that that municipality is back to life – it is liquid. This is evidenced by the healthy financial position of the municipality and its performance.

Thaba Cheu, which was visited by the committee of this House, is also progressing very well. We have started to downscale our intervention in this municipality. The department will continue to monitor the progress in this municipality as well as all other municipalities in order to emphasise good governance for sustainable policy implementation and the rendering of quality service. We must strive to create municipalities that will build investor confidence and attract investors to our municipalities.

The sporadic unrest that we have seen in some of the municipalities in our province such as Govan Mbeki, Thembisile and Nkomazi have been a cause for great concern to us. We will be engaging our municipalities to develop programmes through which they can interact and communicate with the communities, because we have found that lack of information is actually the problem. Municipalities do not proactively communicate with communities and as a result, there is lack of information. We must understand that transforming local government is a long arduous task, and we are in it for the long haul. We shall walk the talk.

Mr Minister, I must, in conclusion, commend your team in the Department of Provincial and Local Government for the sterling work that they continue to do. Yesterday I was accused of having failed to call one of the members “hon member” and, indeed, I can even indicate today that that member does not behave honourably. He literary sits everywhere in the House. I am told that most of the time he doesn’t even attend the sittings of this House. [Interjections.] I am told his name is hon Krumbock. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Continue hon member.

Mr J L MAHLANGU: Chairperson, I would like to indicate that we support the Minister’s budget and we will continue to support him in his initiatives. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr J MCHUNU(KwaZulu-Natal): Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, MECs, hon members, departmental officials - all protocol observed, we are all honoured to be a part of this Budget Vote that seeks to address the legacy of the apartheid regime that left our communities underdeveloped and poor. We are also honoured that we can stand before this hon House, celebrating the 50th anniversary of our Freedom Charter, and also celebrating our 10 years of freedom; unlike Le Roux of the DA, who is celebrating the stoning of our Nelson Mandela metro mayor, Comrade Faku. [Interjections.]

For us in KwaZulu-Natal, unlike in other provinces, 2004 will go down in history as the beginning of freedom … [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, I will mention you by name, Shelly Loe. This is an honourable House. It should be honourable.

Mr J MCHUNU(KwaZulu-Natal): For us in KwaZulu-Natal, unlike in other provinces, 2004 will go down in history as the beginning of freedom. We in KwaZulu-Natal can now celebrate and advance the vision of the Freedom Charter with other provinces. The tide has turned in KwaZulu-Natal. The people shall govern. KwaZulu-Natal belongs to all who live in it.

In supporting this Budget Vote you can be sure that the KwaZulu-Natal provincial government is guided by its legal mandate in its interaction with local government as a separate sphere of government. This legislative framework includes provisions such as section 154(1) of the Constitution, which states: The national government and provincial governments, by legislative and other measures, must support and strengthen the capacity of municipalities to manage their own affairs, to exercise their powers and to perform their functions.

Based on the mandate in section 155 of the Constitution, section 139 of the Constitution and section 105 of the Local Government: Municipal Management Finance Act, Act 56 of 2003, the provincial government, and specifically the MEC of KwaZulu-Natal and his department, have since developed a comprehensive strategy in the province to address the various challenges expressed by the municipalities in KwaZulu-Natal.

It is also important to understand the context of the province, where after the local government election in 2000, 21 of the municipalities demarcated were newly established. Much effort went into the set-up of these municipalities and administrative entities, but the focus has now shifted to promoting democratic and accountable local government within the province.

We have also moved away from looking at local government as an institution towards dealing with issues of local governance. We now apply a broader, more integrated approach to address challenges. Local government requires the participation of all stakeholders, including municipal councillors, administrators, amakhosi, various interest groups and, most importantly, the broader community. It is necessary to focus on engaging all stakeholders effectively in governance. The role of the amakhosi is recognised as an extremely important one, and every effort is made to promote a good relationship between municipalities and amakhosi. Since the general election the installation of amakhosi has been done by the hon King, and the MEC of local government participates actively in this process.

It is clear that, given the legacy of the past of the new roles and responsibilities that the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act has brought into being, the local government will surely be tested on delivering the basic services to their citizens, and the currently developing economic growth and developing strategies.

Our local government under the MEC Mabuyakhula has already demonstrated that the tide has turned in KwaZulu-Natal by commissioning the investigation in 17 municipalities, applying section 106 of the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act. This investigation is as a result of numerous allegations of fraud, corruption and maladministration in various municipalities across the province.

It is indeed so that enhancing the vision of the Freedom Charter one of our primary responsibilities is to ensure that each and every rand spent at local government level does what it is earmarked for, which is to improve the quality of life of our communities. One of these municipalities under investigation is Umvoti Municipality.

We also welcome the intervention by the national local government portfolio committee in the Umvoti saga as a case study of our laws that govern our country, namely whether these laws that are passed by the democratic government are enhancing the vision of the Freedom Charter, or are taking us further back to the style of the old regimes.

In conclusion, we would like to support the budget presented before us as a way forward to address the problems of our community at local level, and I also want to thank the NCOP for their hands-on approach to dealing with issues of local government, and further ask the NCOP to do follow-up work on areas visited by the NCOP in taking Parliament to the people, such as Empangeni in KwaZulu-Natal. Those committees are still patiently waiting for a response on issues that were raised during the parliamentary visit in November 2004. I thank you. [Applause.]

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, let me start off by thanking the director- general and his dedicated staff for the manner in which they presented their budget to our committee. They were prepared, they were ready, they were professional and they were honest.

Se se fediša polelo yela ya kgale ya gore: Tša etwa ke ya tshadi pele, di wela ka leopeng. Re re kgonene, mmagorena! [This puts an end to the old saying that: A crew led by a woman will not achieve its goal. We are saying, congratulations mother!] I was mandated by my dynamic chairperson and the select committee to direct my input to the relationship between traditional leaders and our municipal councillors. I am therefore going to comply. There was a time in the history of this country when our respected traditional leaders were called “kapteins”. Their supreme chiefs were Prime Ministers. As if that was not enough, all magistrates under whose jurisdictions traditional leaders fell were given powers to be their super chiefs. Traditional leaders had no choice but to adapt.

In one of the former homelands, traditional leaders were taken to a holiday resort. They were bought some oversized suits. After putting them on, they were told to sign for so-called independence – “ntepa ye ntsho!” [forced into submission!]

“Magoši ao a ile a dira seo re se bitšago go jela molato mpeng.” [Those traditional leaders have been indebted to them ever since.] They indeed complied and signed for independence, which was granted. It was a norm that all those who resisted any instruction from the so-called supreme chiefs or super chiefs were deposed and their stooges or their brothers or their relatives were put in their place.

During the Codesa negotiation process, which I was fortunate to be a part of, the people’s movement, the ANC, came up with a clause that was to be included in the interim constitution that sought to formally recognise the institution of traditional leadership, its role, status and function. We were thus supported by parties that were sober, that understood that the institution of traditional leadership was not a creation of any government because it had existed from time immemorial. The same cannot be said by one party that only talks of traditional leadership during election campaigns, but immediately thereafter their silence is deafening. That is the DA.

This provision is made under section 211 under chapter 12 in the new Constitution. Today we have the National House of Traditional Leaders and Provincial Houses of Traditional Leader in the six provinces. All these were made possible by the people’s movement, the ANC.

A year and some months ago, this ANC-led government passed the Traditional Leadership and Government Framework Act. This Act enables provinces to come up with legislation that is going to clearly define the actual roles and functions of traditional leaders.

Having said this, there are some challenges that are faced by this department. One of these tensions is between traditional leaders and municipal councillors. This tension between these two structures is the cause for concern, and something must be done. I want to urge the department to put some mechanisms in place to reduce this unnecessary tension between these two structures. The sour relationship between these two structures hampers service delivery in our communities.

For example, what is happening in some areas is that you find councillors who simply identify a site and start with some developments in an area under the jurisdiction of a kgoši or kgošigadi, without informing that kgoši or kgošigadi. In some instances, there are traditional leaders who view councillors as threats to their positions. They will block whatever development is embarked upon by councillors.

We don’t need this kind of animosity. When this power struggle between these two institutions is taking place, those who are suffering are the ordinary people on the ground, who are expecting to receive services.

Yes, I do agree that there are some unreasonable councillors who see themselves as Alphas and Omegas. Yes, there are those traditional leaders who cannot accept change. What can we do to remove these unnecessary obstacles that are man-made? Yes, as regards any idea that the Minister and/or departments might come up with, I strongly suggest that there be a dedicated unit that is going to deal with these tensions.

As I am speaking, because of these tensions there are some traditional leaders who are not even attending council sittings because they regard attending them as a waste of time. They see themselves as zombies because they can’t even vote in those council meetings.

The Bill I talked about earlier on will remove any ambiguity as to who is supposed to do what in an area where there is this councillor or a traditional leader. The exercise can assist in cementing the relationship between these two structures because they can co-exist, whether we like it or not. Someone has to knock sense into these two structures.

Sello se sengwe sa batho ba gaborena … [Nako e fedile.] [Another thing with our people …[Time expired.]]

The MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, allow me, on behalf of the Ministry and the department, to express our heartfelt appreciation for the overwhelming support that we received and continue to receive from members of this House, as well as for the excellent co- operation that exists between us and the select committee chaired by the hon Mr Shiceka. Allow me also to acknowledge my great debt to those who used their insights into the issues under discussion this morning to make constructive suggestions, which can only ensure that our country moves from strength to strength. The hon chairperson of the select committee spoke about the need to capacitate provinces. I must say that one of the aims of Project Consolidate is to make sure that provinces are positioned in such a way that as we go into the municipalities that need support, we go together with designated people from provinces, from Salga, and from the national government department, because it’s not only government personnel that are deployed into these areas but we are also deploying people who were made available to us with the necessary expertise from the private sector as well as the parastatals. So, this is also an exercise in skills transfer.

Therefore, it means that all the people that are involved, including the personnel that are working in these local areas that are affected, will have an unprecedented opportunity to learn by doing. So, indeed, this will be just one of the elements of a systematic programme of support that we are contemplating to support the provinces so that they can more effectively take joint responsibility – which, by the way, they are enjoined to do by the Constitution – for supporting municipalities, but also take more effective responsibility to discharge their own obligations to the people.

The hon chairperson of the select committee also said that we needed to relook the issue of part-time councillors. Of course, the structure of local government, like any other structure, cannot be static. We will need to have a discussion as he proposed and the decisions will have to be taken on the balance of the evidence as to which way to go.

I am saying this because if we are saying that there is a serious problem of lack of capacity in government generally, but more specifically at the level of local government, then we will have to take the necessary decisions to redress this problem. Now the question for me is, what balance should be struck between the political, strategic and administrative imperatives of a functioning local government? I think that the answer therefore lies in trying to find the necessary balances to this issue.

The hon Mr Sinclair complained about what he considers to be the selective cherry-picking sort of participation of Salga in the business of this House. And, he advised that Salga needs to take greater interest not only in matters to do with local government; but on everything that falls within the purview of this House. In any case, everything that this House does bears on the lives of people in those local spaces. I hope that Salga will heed this wise counsel.

The hon Mr Le Roux spoke about a province with the most problems. He was actually repeating what was said by one of the earlier speakers - a province with the most problems not represented here today. It was an oblique reference to the Western Cape. Well, it is true that there is a backlog of services in the Western Cape, a backlog of infrastructure and many other such related problems. Perhaps this has to do with the fact that the province took too long to join the legion of liberated provinces in the country. You pledged, on behalf of your party, that your party wants to play a constructive role in the affairs of the country. One of the contributions you can make is to go and help remove the impediments that you left in place when you were unseated in the Western Cape. [Interjections.]

The hon Mr Worth confirmed what we know, that this House has taken one of the most progressive steps that any parliament can take; namely that you will go out there and interact with communities so that whatever you do it’s informed by knowledge of the concrete conditions that exist in the concrete situations that we have on the ground.

I am informed that, like other members of this House, Mr Worth has paid visits to the provinces and he participated in the sessions of the House in KZN and in Mpumalanga. The tragedy is that he doesn’t seem to have come out of those interactions any wiser. He talks about 136 municipalities that are in crisis. He arrives at this conclusion because we have announced that we are intervening to assist 136 municipalities that need help.

Now, you have to look at each one of the 136 municipalities before you arrive at a glib conclusion such as the one you are making. For example, one of the 136 municipalities is the municipality of Johannesburg, which is home to Soweto. We said in the National Assembly that Soweto celebrated its centenary last year. The township of Soweto that is home to millions of people spent 98 of those 100 years with gravel streets in built areas. The metropolitan municipality of Johannesburg is about to complete the project next month. They only decided to tar the roads two years ago and it amounts to more than 300 kilometres.

A municipality with that kind of capability cannot be said, by any stretch of the English language, to be in crisis. The hon member knows that, but there are good reasons why he chose to use that word. It is not meant to be serious evidence based on analytical statements. It is a sound byte, which is meant to influence headlines in the newspapers. [Laughter.]

You cannot have a hon member of Parliament who says my party wants to play a constructive role and then he participates in a debate of this importance and chooses to do so by subverting the basic rules of decent debate. All he can see are problems. He takes perverse delight in the continued existence, perceived or real, of problems.

On the one hand, he says that municipalities lack capacity. Fair enough. We are in full agreement. At the same time he complains about the so-called enormous salaries that are being paid to administrative staff. Why in the Lord’s name are you talking through both sides of your mouth? [Laughter.]

We cannot say that we need to have capacitated municipalities, and at the same time we don’t want to remunerate people at levels that will attract people with skills. [Interjections.] You can howl in your little party caucus but not in this House. You are going to behave in a manner that is consistent with the decorum of an elective body such as this one.

Now, I was saying that we would have to decide what we want. If we want capacitated, robust local government, then we must make sure that we take decisions, which will enable us to attract people with skills to go and work in these municipalities.

Again, I am saying that if you want government to take the input that you make - which you should do as elected members of this House – seriously, then we will have to talk to each other about the truth. And the truth is that there are many problems in the municipalities but there is also considerable progress that has been made. You can’t continue to worship at the altar of untruth and expect us to take you seriously. Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. [Laughter.] [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members! Thank you very much, hon Minister. We hope that everybody paid attention to the response of the Minister, not only members of the select committee. I always emphasise that there is nothing wrong with members heckling each other, but there is something fundamentally wrong when you heckle to a point that other members cannot hear what the speaker is saying because at the end of the day you must go and tell people outside what you were talking about here. I am not sure how many of us are able to do that. Judging by the manner in which we make a noise and don’t want to listen to certain things that we don’t want to hear, I am not sure. But, maybe it’s something that we must address at another level. I think the Chief Whips will look into that more seriously.

The point I want to make is that one of my roles as a presiding officer is to protect the decorum of this House and protect every member in this House. If somebody addresses the House and somebody over there makes a noise, then I would not be able to hear whether a particular member is being insulted or not. You are putting me in a very serious position. I really want to appeal particularly to leaders of parties to talk to their members.

Maybe we need some kind of training. I should not be misunderstood here; I am not trying to say that members should not heckle one another, but that the loudness should be at an acceptable level.

Again, I want to thank the Minister for his keen interest in the work of the NCOP, and his very thoughtful contributions to the debate today, which I think are going to be a touchstone and a road map for all activists within the local government arena.

Debate concluded.

The Council adjourned at 12:01. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. Introduction of Bills

 (1)    The Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism


     (i)     Marine Living Resources Amendment Bill [B 16 – 2005]
         (National Assembly – sec 75) [Explanatory summary of Bill and
         prior notice of its introduction published in Government
         Gazette No 27489 of 22 April 2005.]


     Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on
     Environmental Affairs and Tourism of the National Assembly, as
     well as referral to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for
     classification in terms of Joint Rule 160, on 23 May 2005.


     In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of
     the Bill may be submitted to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)
     within three parliamentary working days.

1. Draft Bills submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159

   (1) Marine Living Resources Amendment Bill, 2005, submitted by the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism on 18 May 2005. Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Environmental Affairs and Tourism and the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs.