TUESDAY, 24 MAY 2005 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

                                ____

The Council met at 10:02.

The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): Good morning, hon members. I would like to welcome back our Chairperson from his visit to Algeria. We hope that you had a good time, Chairperson, and welcome back.

                     DROWNING OF SCHOOLCHILDREN


                         (Draft Resolution)

Ms M P THEMBA: Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:

That the Council –

(1) notes the tragic drowning of seven young girls from Ndlela Secondary School, Piet Retief in Mpumalanga at Alkant Strand, Richards Bay over the past weekend;

(2) further notes that the unfortunate incident occurred when the children attended a sports day at Mondini High School in Ntambanana;

(3) expresses our condolences to the families and the school community of these young girls;

(4) calls for urgent measures to be taken to ensure that such incidents are prevented in future and that our young people are safeguarded from unnecessary harm; and

(5) further calls for a speedy inquiry into the circumstances leading to the tragic incident.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL


                           (Policy debate)

Vote No 27 – Parliament:

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Madam Deputy Chairperson of the Council, it gives me pleasure to lead the debate on this Budget Vote for Parliament.

Let me start by saying today, as we consider the Budget of Parliament, as the House we can take pride and comfort in the fact that 11 years into our democracy, our Parliament will never be the same again. Never in the history of our country have we had a parliament that is so accessible and open like we have today.

Never in the history of our country have we had a parliament that respects the will of the people, a parliament that promotes people’s participation and access in the manner that our Parliament does. We can say with confidence that ours is a people’s parliament.

On 9 May 1994 the new democratic Parliament met for the first time and one of the major tasks of the 490 public representatives from seven political parties at the time was to draw up a constitution. On this day, 24 May 1994, the Constitutional Assembly was constituted and its mandate was to come up with a constitution for the country.

This process was to involve participation by the masses of our people from the length and breadth of our country and up to two million public submissions were received. The involvement of our people was within the expression of the Congress of the People some 50 years, that all shall be entitled to take part in the administration of the country. The consequence of this constitution-making process was the adoption of a world-class constitution in 1996, which established Parliament and sets out the functions it performs.

Our Constitution establishes and vests the legislative authority of the national sphere of government in Parliament as set out in section 44 of the Constitution. In exercising this legislative authority, Parliament has the mandate of passing laws, overseeing and scrutinising executive action, facilitating public participation and involvement in facilitating co- operative governance and lastly, facilitating international participation.

It is important therefore that, as we consider this Budget today, we must look critically at whether the funds to be voted for our Parliament are used for furthering the constitutional mandate of Parliament, which I have just outlined. Most important, this debate takes place against the backdrop of our launching the Vision of Parliament. This is important because the Vision defines for us what we intend to do with the resources that are at our disposal to carry out the mandate of Parliament.

Parliament’s Vision was adopted by both Houses of Parliament on 22 February

1. Its adoption followed a lengthy period of consultation. The aim was to come up with a vision, which would better articulate our common destiny in line with the expression and wishes of our people. The vision of our national legislature is to build an effective people’s parliament that is responsive to the needs of the people, and that is driven by the ideal of realising a better quality of life for all of the people of South Africa.

It is very important to note that our Vision puts the people at the centre. This is because we remain committed to promoting our Parliament as a people- centred institution. This is significant in the sense that it is our people that this institution must serve.

In line with the Vision and our Constitution the kind of Parliament that we are working for can be described, as follows: A people’s parliament to transform an entire society, establishing a society based on democratic values, social justice and fundamental human rights; a people’s parliament of freely elected representatives, building on the foundation of a democratic and open society based on the will of the people, their participation and access to Parliament; a people’s parliament providing a national forum for public consideration of issues, which includes education, informing and involving the people of South Africa in its processes and acting as a voice of the people; a people’s parliament co- operating with other spheres of government as it deepens and entrenches our democratic values; a people’s parliament working with continental and international bodies to create a new democratic and participatory world order; a people’s parliament passing good laws and scrutinising and overseeing executive actions as it moves to improve the quality of life of the people of South Africa, building a united, democratic South Africa.

The realisation of our vision, however, lies in the implementation of three important objective strategies: firstly, to build a quality process of scrutinising and overseeing government’s actions; secondly, to further build a people’s parliament that is responsive to the needs of all the people of South Africa – what it means here is that Parliament will focus on these areas, building a people-centred institution, deepening democracy, being responsive to the people’s needs, education and information, being the voice of the people’s access to Parliament, taking Parliament to the people and setting up a parliamentary information office; and thirdly, building an effective and efficient institution - this would entail Parliament improving institutional governance, policy implementation, introducing modern systems and technology, improving human resources, capacity and communication, among other things.

These are the three strategic objectives flowing from the vision. They are intended to serve as a guide to the work that we want to do as Parliament to realise our vision as a people’s parliament. How do we get involved in dealing with the public involvement? There is no gainsay in the fact that since its first sitting on 11 May, eleven years ago, our Parliament has played an important and critical role in improving a platform for public consideration of issues and promoting public participation.

We also became innovative in carrying out this constitutional mandate. Because of the intensity of the ravages of apartheid we found that our Parliament remained inaccessible to many people, more especially those living in the far-flung rural areas. Parliament remained accessible mainly to those people who had the resources to travel to Cape Town. As a result we had to ensure that we took Parliament to where our people were so that they could participate and have the opportunity to interact with the public representatives.

Democracy is for all our people, irrespective of where they live and we work hard to promote more access to Parliament to ensure that it becomes truly a people’s parliament. Taking Parliament to the People is one of our initiatives and it is spearheaded by the NCOP. It is a programme of taking Parliament to the people, which is working very successfully at the present moment. The programme is aimed at promoting public participation and education by having this House sit in a province.

Since its launch in 2002 the programme has had the potential of drawing hundreds of people to our sessions. On average we have drawn not less than 700 people each day during the sitting with a maximum of 2 000 for some of the sessions we held in the North West province in 2003.

In initiating this programme we sought to achieve two main objectives, which I think the MPs or the Council should be aware of at the present moment: to ensure that communities are aware of their representative democracy; and to ensure that our people are educated and informed about the work of Parliament and the effect of their views on its work.

Despite having been to only four provinces since we started, we have, however, begun to achieve these objectives. Many people, mainly from the rural areas, vigorously use the opportunities and platform provided by the NCOP to raise their concerns, suggestions and comments directly with the MPs and government Ministers during these sessions. To us this is a true reflection of our commitment as a people’s institution to truly serve the interests of our people.

This programme has also given our people an opportunity to see co-operative government in action. During our visits and meetings public representatives from national, provincial and local government joined together to consider issues that our people raised. I also want to express my appreciation to the Secretary to Parliament, the Budget Forum and the Parliamentary Oversight Authority for prioritising this programme in the Budget allocation. This indicates harmonisation between business, planning and budgeting in the institution. Programmes like these that are part of the constitutional imperatives of the institution should be prioritised to enable the institution to carry out its mandate.

There has been some criticism that the programme is costly. This is a cost that we must bear as Parliament to enable our people to use this platform to raise the issues pertinent to our development and so that our communities are given their chance. Democracy is expensive. We have committed ourselves to being a people’s parliament and are driven by the ideal of realising a better quality of life for all the people of South Africa, rich and poor.

Coming to the budget of Parliament, it is important that we map out the road that we need to travel as Parliament towards realising our vision. We must ensure that we have the resources that we need. Equally important is to make sure that our programmes are designed in such a way that they fully benefit our people.

Today’s Budget Vote is aimed at providing the support service required by Parliament to fulfil its constitutional functions, to assist political parties represented in Parliament to secure administrative support to service their constituencies, and to provide MPs with the necessary facilities. For the financial year Parliament has been allocated R885,5 million for its utilisation. This represents an increase of R100 million from last year’s budget. This is tremendous and it is very good for us. [Applause.]

The administration component of that allocation, namely R344,6 million, and the bulk of the remainder of the total allocation goes mainly to the Members’ Facilities Projects and Committees, as we increase our oversight function. A quick look at where the budget increases went to showed the direction that the institution wishes to take in promoting our Parliament as a people’s parliament. For instance, from R84 million last year, the Office of the Secretary to Parliament will now get R142 million – wonderful. We want to strengthen the administration of Parliament in order to improve ourselves. The increase will go towards the restructuring of the finance management, public affairs and legal advice offices and the promotion of public participation in Parliament. This is in order to ensure that Parliament is better placed to carry out its mandate and assist in accelerating delivery to better the lives of our people.

Other increases in Parliament’s services are as a result of things we want to do to create a parliament that is open and accessible. One of these is the implementation of the language policy, of which we have launched phase

1. That includes the deployment of interpreting services for all eleven languages, which we have already started in both Houses, and the physical infrastructure of a total of 24 interpreting booths as well as a team of language specialists. An increase of R30,5 million goes towards members’ facilities, which will include provision for amendments to the L19 document which I will touch on later.

At present the financial administration of Parliament is regulated by various provisions in Acts and especially by section 31 of the now repealed Powers and Privileges of Parliament Act; section 1 thereof remains operative by virtue of transitional provisions in the Powers and Privileges and Immunities of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures Act of 2004.

The Treasury regulation in terms of public finance management does not include Parliament. Section 216 of the Constitution requires Parliament to establish uniform treasury norms and standards for all spheres of government. In compliance with this section the PMFA deals with the financial management of the national, provincial and mainly executive branches; and the Municipal Finance Management Act does likewise in relation to the local government.

There is no comprehensive piece of legislation to deal with the financial management of Parliament and provincial legislatures, or even rules for the powers, privileges and immunities of Parliament. In order to address this, draft legislation in the form of a Bill on the financial administration of Parliament and provincial legislatures is in progress. This draft piece of legislation is to regulate financial management in the legislative sector, and will be in line with Parliament’s constitutionally based power to determine and control the internal arrangements.

I just want to briefly deal with the issues of the Auditor-General. At this point it is also important to note that as an institution we have learnt some lessons in the areas of financial management. In this report of the financial year ending 31st March 2004 the Auditor-General raised a number of concerns with regard to Parliament’s financial management. These include the lack of systems to follow up on internal and external audit findings, to ensure that corrective steps are taken with regard to mistakes in data capturing and the late submission of relevant documentation. Our administration has taken steps to address these concerns once more, thank you very much to the Secretary to Parliament.

Certain measures, such as the introduction of a seamless information technology system and the skills development exercise, are being undertaken to address these matters. Our strategic objectives are also aimed at improving the way Parliament conducts its business. We are confident that our administration will address all the challenges it is facing at this moment through the implementation of a strategic plan for 2004 to 2008, which was set up for the future by Parliament.

I would be failing in my duty if I did not report on the abuse of travel facilities. Although I cannot deal with the matter in substance, as it’s sub judice, it is my conviction that I owe this House an account because it has voted for these funds.

The abuse, in the way it was reported in the media, did affect the image of the institution, but we can say that we have, however, learnt at least two lessons from it, as a result of which, firstly, facilities to assist members to discharge their constitutional responsibilities had to be revised to ensure that they actually do that and not place members in situations which could pose a challenge to their sense of honour as members. Secondly, financial management systems are being revamped to ensure that practices that could lead to a repeat of this can be addressed at an early stage and be stopped before they start. It is our belief that these measures will prevent these anomalies that happened in the past.

Lastly, one of the functions of Parliament is to facilitate and participate in several international forums and organisations. This provides us with an opportunity to share lessons with our counterparts and to actively assist in promoting parliamentary democracy worldwide. Over the past financial year we have continued to play an active role in international bodies such as the Inter-Parliamentary Union, or IPU; the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, or CPA; the Africa Caribbean and Pacific countries; the European Union, or ACP and EU; the Southern African Development Community Forum, or SADC, and the Pan-African Parliament.

Next week we shall be hosting the 17th CPA seminar on strengthening these parliaments’ democracies. Through our participation in the Pan-African Parliament we have played a crucial role in ensuring that Africa begins its journey towards providing a common platform for African people and their grass-roots organisations to be more involved in discussions and decision- making on the programmes and challenges facing Africa. The PAP heralds a new dawn for the people of Africa.

In conclusion, as I have outlined our mandate, it’s clearly set out in the Constitution. Ours is to ensure that we carry it out in order to contribute towards the betterment of the lives of our people. While doing so we should provide them with an opportunity to influence and steer the course and pace of development of their communities. We believe that the more people know about Parliament and its work, the more participation there will be in governance, which in turn bodes well for our democracy and political future. This is what we want to achieve with this budget. I want to thank you all. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): We thank the hon Chairperson for his progressive and enlightening contribution to the policy debate on Budget Vote No 2 — Parliament.

Mr A WATSON: Hon Chairperson, hon members, in the speech on the Budget Vote of Parliament, and particularly in the context of the NCOP, one must first reflect on the leadership and staff of the institution who not only have to control and account for the expenditure, but also have to ensure that utilisation of the funds and the execution of their duties are in the interests of all the parties represented, and ultimately in the service of the country and the electorate. I therefore wish to pause for a moment to thank the Secretary and staff for their services in this regard, and to also pay tribute to the Chairperson, the hon M J Mahlangu, for his leadership.

In regard to the Budget Vote itself, however, I must point to a number of disturbing factors and, in the first instance, I call on the Chairperson to further extend the fresh breeze of management that he has brought to this House to influence the accounting of Parliament for the better.

I am happy to hear that our hon Chairperson is also concerned about the accounting and the consequential reports. It is simply unacceptable that year after year Parliament is unable to achieve an unqualified report from the Auditor-General, and that the last report was no different.

Parliament constitutes the highest authority in our country and as such should be an example for other spheres of the public sector. Parliament should be at the forefront of solving problems, and certainly not be part of them. I trust that the Chairperson and his team will look into this matter so that, from our side in the NCOP, we are not guilty.

I was also happy to hear the Chairperson touch on the matter of Travelgate, and that he is concerned about it. I call on him to use his influence to see to it that this matter is now finally and conclusively brought to book. Huge amounts are involved, but more importantly, the honour of members of Parliament is at stake.

People out there are talking about dishonourable members of Parliament, and we do not understand why it is taking so long, why only a few junior members have been brought to book whilst the list that was originally produced was long. I call on the Chairperson to please attend to this matter.

There is also a very important matter that must be aired here today. The funds provided for in this Budget Vote are aimed at enhancing democracy and building a better society and should certainly not provide a platform for members to discredit others, especially when such others are unable to defend themselves because they are not present.

The hon Setona’s defamatory lie in the Council last week about the hon leader of the DA, Mr Tony Leon, is in the same league as accusing President Mbeki for being responsible for . . . [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): Order! Are you rising on a point of order?

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: The hon Watson referred to the speech by the hon Setona and said that he lied. I think it is unparliamentary to say a member lied. It is unparliamentary. He must withdraw that.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): Hon Watson, will you please withdraw your words?

Mr A WATSON: I withdraw, and I would substitute it by saying that the hon Setona’s defamatory statement in this Council . . . [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): Hon Watson, you are still using the same line of argument by using the word “defamatory”.

Mr A WATSON: “Defamatory” is not . . . I am not saying that he is defamatory. I am saying that he made a defamatory statement. He defamed the hon Tony Leon.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): Are you saying he defamed the hon Leon?

Mr A WATSON: He did. [Interjections.] He did. There is no doubt about that. I withdraw the word “lie”, Chair, but I am saying that the statement was defamatory.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): But “defamatory” means that he was lying. [Interjections.]

Mr A WATSON: No.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): Yes, oh yes! I am ruling now, and I ask the hon member to withdraw his words, please.

Mr A WATSON: I will not withdraw the word “defamatory”, because it is not unparliamentary. I have conceded and withdrawn the word “lie”.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): Hon Watson, I am not going to ask you a second time. Hon Chief Whip?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Madam Chair, I propose that you give your good self ample time to consider the matter, and make a ruling later on.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): Thank you, hon Chief Whip. I will make a ruling later on, but I will continue to ask Mr Watson to withdraw his words.

Mr A WATSON: I withdraw the word “lie”, and I am referring to the statement made by Mr Setona about the hon leader of the DA, Mr Tony Leon, and I said that it is in the same league as accusing the President of this country of being responsible for the Magoo’s Bar bombing or for the shooting of churchgoers in Cape Town’s St James Church.

The fact that not one of the hon Setona’s colleagues were so eager to stand up and force him to withdraw those lies says everything about the ANC’s lack of commitment to democracy and truth in South Africa. These types of baseless allegations are designed to envenom the debate in this Council, and to create a poisonous atmosphere where the efforts made in good faith by the opposition are denounced and undermined.

Mr Leon was a conscript of the then South African defence force, as were several of Mr Setona’s colleagues, amongst whom are no less than the Deputy Justice Minister, Mr De Lange, and Environmental Affairs Minister, Marthinus van Schalkwyk. I don’t hear him making these sorts of . . . [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): Hon Watson, will you please keep to the debate. [Interjections.] The debate is not about Mr Setona here. The debate is about the Budget Vote. Will you please keep to the debate.

Mr A WATSON: I will keep to the debate and remind the House that the budget of Parliament and the budget of this Council has everything to do with democracy and the right of people to speak from this platform, and not to abuse the platform. This platform was abused in a speech about education and, now, when I am speaking, you want me to stop talking about it.

The point of fact is that we are debating the funds made available to me and the members of this House in order to, amongst other things, speak in this House. I really contend that it is my right to say that there was nothing amazing about Mr Leon’s role as a conscript. It would do the hon Setona well to check his facts before accusing the hon Leon of being in a helicopter above the streets of Soweto, firing teargas and bullets at unarmed students . . . [Laughter.]

In fact, Mr Leon was on a navy frigate at that time on his way to the bicentennial celebrations in New York. If that’s not a lie, then I don’t know what is a lie, and I withdraw the word.

Increasingly, the ANC is using the protection offered by Parliament, which is part of the budget of this House, as a base from which it launches racial and defamatory slurs directed at the opposition. One might expect this sort of behaviour in a Zimbabwean parliament were undermining the opposition is a favourite pastime of the ruling party, but the ANC should set its moral standards at a far higher level.

I therefore expect the hon Setona to do the honourable thing, if such a thing is possible for him, and apologise to this House for deliberately and knowingly resorting to an untruth in his dull speech, and also, to extend a written apology to the Leader of the Opposition, the hon Tony Leon, MP. [Interjections.] I must say that I am not overoptimistic that the hon Setona will be able to apologise, but I am . . . [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): Are you rising on a point of order?

Mr E M SOGONI: Yes, I’m rising on a point of order. Deputy Chairperson, the point of order is that I don’t think it is correct or parliamentary for us to use this podium in Parliament to defame other parliaments. The member referred to the Zimbabwean parliament. [Interjections.] He said that defaming the opposition or undermining the opposition is done in other parliaments.

I don’t think that is fair to Zimbabweans, because Zimbabweans will not be in a position to respond to that. I think we must stick to South Africa, and criticise ourselves. I think it is only fair to criticise ourselves. Thank you, Chair. [Laughter.]

Mr A WATSON: Thank you, hon Chair. That was just a waste of my time.

I said that I am not overoptimistic that the hon Setona will be able to apologise, but I am certainly hoping that for once he will . . . [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): Thank you, hon Watson. Are you rising on a point of order, hon Sulliman?

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Deputy Chair, I would like to know whether the hon member is prepared to take a question.

Mr A WATSON: No. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): I think I am still in the Chair, hon Watson. I will put the question. Are you prepared to take a question?

Mr A WATSON: I am delivering a speech, not a . . . [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): Hon member, stand please.

Mr M O ROBERTSON: Chairperson, I think the hon Watson is confused. I was in the navy at the same time apparently as the hon Leon, and my understanding is . . . [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: Chairperson, on a point of order . . . [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): Just a moment, hon member. I would like to tell the members of this House that I am still in this Chair, and I am still chairing here. If it is a point of order, it is a point of order. You may continue, hon Watson.

Mnr A WATSON: Voorsitter, ek dink ek het genoeg gesê oor die punt van Mnr Setona se uitlatings met betrekking tot ander lede, en as dit toelaatbaar is, dan verstaan ek nie hoekom die . . . [Interjections.] . . . van Zimbabwe te praat nie. Ek dank U. [Tyd verstreke.][Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mr A WATSON: Chairperson, I believe I have said enough on the point of Mr Setona’s utterances with reference to other members, and if those are admissible I don’t understand why it is. . . [Interjections.] . . . to talk about Zimbabwe. I thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]]

Nkk J N VILAKAZI: Phini likaSihlalo ohloniphekileyo, Sihlalo woMkhandlu kaZwelonke weziFundazwe, kule nkulumo-mpikiswano ngithanda ukusho nje lokhu okubalulekile. Okokuqala, maqondana nemali kadekle yamalungu ePhalamende, kunesikhalo esikhulu kulo mkhakha. Lokho kuyiqiniso futhi kudinga iPhalamende lisicubungule kahle ukuze sinciphe lesi sikhalo. Amalungu ePhalamende ashiya konke akwenzayo kokuzithuthukisa emisebenzini eminingi asuke eyifundele, ahambe aye kosebenzela isizwe. Kodwa uma ubheka umhlalaphansi wawo uyakhalisa kakhulu, ekubeni asuke ezokondliwa yile mali aze ayosithela kwamhlaba. Siyacela ukuthi iPhalamende liyibuyekeze le mali kadekle.

Kwawona amaholo ayakhalisa uma uqhathanisa nezinkampani ezizimele. Phela ukuba ayanelisa, uhwaphilizo nokukhwabanisa okungaka ngabe akuyona insakavukela umchilo wesidwaba. Siyacela impela ukuba uhulumeni ake asigcine kahle isithunzi samalungu ahloniphekileyo ukuze kuthi noma esethathe umhlalaphansi imali kadekle iwenelise, hhayi le esiyibonayo njengamanje.

Okwesibili kumaqondana namahhovisi angenayo impahla efanelekileyo. Kuyinkinga enkulu le ukuthi ifenisha iyaphuza ukuthengwa, kuthiwe imali ayikho. Ithi ingafika imali ingabe isalethwa le fenisha kuze kuyovalwa ePhalamende kwesinye isikhathi. Le nto engiyikhulumayo akuyona inzwabethi. Ongabazayo angeza e-Marks Building azozibonela lokhu engikhuluma ngakho emahhovisi 41, 40, 39, 38 namanye. Okukhona phakathi yizinto okuhanjwa ziqoqwa kulabo abazikhiphayo kwenzelwa ukucabangela isimo ngenkathi kusalindiwe.

Siyacela Sihlalo woMkhandlu kaZwelonke weziFundazwe: amalungu ePhalamende awathole ifenisha yawo kanye kanye, hhayi ukukhetha amabala. Akusiphathi neze kahle lokhu. Kuyoba kuhle uma lesi sabiwomali osethulayo sizokwazi ukulungisa lesi simo esisiphethe kabi.

Okwesithathu kungabahumushi bezilimi kule Ndlu. Le Ndlu engikuyo, uMkhandlu kaZwelonke weziFundazwe, kudingeka imali eningi kuyo yokuqasha abahumushi abenele futhi abalwaziyo kahle ulimi. Kulesi sikhathi siphakamisa ulimi lwendabuko kodwa phela abezwe kahle nabanye esikhuluma nabo ukuthi sithini. Kukhona isikhathi lapho inkulumo ingahunyushwa, kuvele kuthule kuthi cwaka. Kwesinye isikhathi uma ulalele uzwe ukuxubana kwezilimi okukhomba khona ukuthi usuke engekho lona olwazi kahle ulimi olukhulumayo. Siyaluthanda ulimi lwethu. Mina nje isiZulu angisizwa kahle uma sixutshwaxutshwa namagama angesiwo awesiZulu.

Okwesine, iposi elifakwa emabhokisini amalungu ePhalamende liyasisitheka, liphuze ukufika emalungwini. Kwesinye isikhathi kuthikaziseka amalungu okusuke kufanele alungiselele imihlangano nokuthile. Asazi noma nalapho lokho kwenziwa ukushoda kwabasebenzi yini. Masisizwe ngokuthi kubhekwe lesi simo ngoba asisiphathi kahle. Uma kudingeka abasebenzi, iPhalamende malibe naso isabiwomali esanele ukwenza lokhu.

Okwesihlanu nokokugcina kumaqondana nokuxhumana kwamalungu ePhalamende nomphakathi. Amalungu omphakathi asebenzisa amaselula ukuxhumana nathi. Amalungu ePhalamende nawo ngokunjalo axhumana nawo umphakathi ngawo amaselula. Manje le mali enqunyelwe amalunga ePhalamende incane kakhulu ngoba kuyabiza ukusebenzisa iselula. Siyethemba ukuthi umhlonishwa uNobhala wePhalamende uyosicabanga lesi simo ukuze amalungu asebenze kahle. Kuba buhlungu kakhulu uma sekwehliswa iholo lelungu uma seleqile kulokho elikunqunyelwe yiPhalamende libe lelo lungu likade lisebenzisa iselula ukuxhumana nomphakathi ekusebenzeni kwalo.

Siyalincoma igxathu eselithathwe uhulumeni; asikwazi ukubhidliza yonke into. Zikhona izinto ezinhle kakhulu kodwa kudinga sikhiphe amaqiniso njengoba enjalo. Siyalincoma igxathu eselithathwe uhulumeni ekuhambiseni iPhalamende kubantu. Siyambonga uMongameli wezwe ngeqhaza alibambile ekuletheni uxolo emazweni ase-Afrika jikelele. Siyalibonga iqhaza likaXoshindlala ezifundeni ezintulayo kanye nokunye okuningi. Sihlalo ohloniphekileyo, angibonge. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu speech follows.)

[Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Hon Deputy Chairperson and Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, I would like to say the following in this debate. Firstly, there are concerns about the pension for members of Parliament. It’s true this issue has to be dealt with properly by Parliament to address these concerns. The members of Parliament left their chosen profession to work for the nation. Their retirement package raised concerns because they have to use that amount until they die. I therefore ask Parliament to review the retirement package of members.

It also raises some concerns when one compares remuneration in the private sector. If salaries were satisfactory we would not have the high rate of corruption and fraud that has become daily bread in this country. I therefore plead with government to restore members’ dignity so that even after retirement they remain satisfied, which is not the case at present.

Secondly, the offices are without suitable furniture. It is a problem that the furniture is not bought timeously, the reason being the unavailability of funds. When the funds become available the furniture is not supplied until Parliament goes into recess. I am not talking about hearsay. Whoever doubts this should come to the Marks Building, rooms 38 to 41 and others. The furniture available there was taken from other offices for the time being.

We are pleading with you Chairperson of the NCOP: Members of Parliament must get their furniture simultaneously and without discrimination. It does not go down well with us. We would appreciate it if the budget you are allocating could address this bad situation.

Thirdly, regarding the matter of interpreters for the House, the NCOP which I serve needs money to employ enough interpreters who are competent in their languages. We are promoting indigenous language at this stage so others have to understand what we are saying. There are instances where speeches are not interpreted. In some instances when one is listening you find a clash of languages on one channel and you notice that the person who understands the language better is not available. We love our language. I don’t understand isiZulu well if you mix it with non-isiZulu words.

Fourthly, the mail put into members’ postboxes exceeds the space provided for it. It reaches members late. Sometimes it affects members who were supposed to attend other meetings. We don’t know whether it is as a result of staff shortages. We therefore plead for this issue to be rectified. Should additional staff be required, then Parliament must budget for this.

The fifth and last issue concerns the communication between members of Parliament and the public. The public uses cellphones to communicate with us. Members of Parliament use cellphones to communicate with the public. The stipulated amount for use by parliamentarians is not enough because it is expensive to use a cellphone. We hope the Secretary to Parliament will consider this issue. It becomes painful to a member of Parliament when the amount is deducted for having exceeded the stipulated amount when that member used a cellphone to interact with the public.

We commend the step taken by the government. We cannot destroy everything. There are good things. We need to tell the truth as it is. We commend the step taken by government to take Parliament to the people. We commend the President for the role he played in bringing peace to the African continent. We commend the role of Operation Xoshindlala in poorer provinces; and many other things. Thank you, hon Chairperson. [Applause.]]

Mnr K SINCLAIR: Agb Voorsitter, ek het ’n baie gematigde toespraak voorberei, maar nadat die agb lid Watson van die DA soveel twak gepraat het, dink ek nie ek kan by my gematigde toespraak bly nie. Om die ANC daarvan te beskuldig dat hulle ondemokraties is . . . [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mr K SINCLAIR: Hon Chairperson, I have prepared a very mild speech, but the hon member Watson of the DA spoke so much nonsense that I do not think I can keep to my mild speech. To accuse the ANC of being undemocratic … [Interjections.]]

Mr A WATSON: Madam Chair, on a point of order: The Chair previously ruled that the word “lie” could not be used. The word “untruth” is the same as “lie”. In Afrikaans, “twak praat” means “to lie”. [Laughter.] So I appeal to you to ask the member to withdraw that word. The member has accused me of lying.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Sinclair, if you used the word “lie” you must withdraw it.

Mnr K SINCLAIR: Agb Voorsitter, ek het nie die woord “leun” gebruik nie, maar . . . [Tussenwerpsels.]

’n AGB LID: . . .“twak praat”!

Mnr K SINCLAIR: Ja, maar daar is ’n verskeidenheid interpretasies, maar ek wil nie my tyd daarmee verkwis nie. Ek dink onderliggend is daar een probleem met die DA in die Noord-Kaap in Suid-Afrika as ons . . . [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr K SINCLAIR: Hon Chairperson, I did not use the word “lie”, but … [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: … “talking nonsense”!

Mr K SINCLAIR: Yes, but there are various interpretations, and I do not want to waste my time on that. I think there is one underlying problem with the DA in the Northern Cape in South Africa if we … [Interjections.]]

Mr O M THETJENG: Chairperson, on a point of order: I didn’t hear the hon member withdraw the statement that he made. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: It needs to be considered if the interpretation means “lie”. Continue, hon member.

Mr O M THETJENG: The interpretation is that it is “lie”. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, could you please take your seat. The member has withdrawn. Please continue, hon Sinclair.

Mnr K SINCLAIR: Agb Voorsitter, ek hoop dat u vir my ekstra tyd sal gee. Die probleem met die demokrasie in Suid-Afrika is die volgende. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mr K SINCLAIR: Hon Chairperson, I hope that you will give me extra time. The problem with democracy in South Africa is the following.]

The problem with democracy in South Africa is that the official opposition speaks like Tarzan but walks like Jane.

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, on a point of order: I refer to Rule 36, which talks about irrelevance or repetition. I would like to know how this is relevant to the budget of Parliament? Thank you very much.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Continue, hon Sinclair.

Mnr K SINCLAIR: Agb Voorsitter, dit is absoluut relevant ten opsigte van die debat wat ons vandag bespreek, want u sien, die NNP is baiekeer in hierdie Huis daarvan beskuldig dat ons weggehardloop het, dat ons oorgeloop het, dat ons geabdikeer het, en ons het dit nie gedoen nie. Die blote feit dat die agb Watson vandag bereid is om hierdie agb Leier van die Opposisie te probeer verontskuldig ten opsigte van die rol wat hulle in die verlede gespeel het, bevestig die DA se ambivalensie. Ons was deel van die ou Suid- Afrika en ons is trots daarop! Om nou te kom sê . . . [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mr K SINCLAIR: Hon Chairperson, it is absolutely relevant with regard to today’s debate because, you see, the NNP has been accused on numerous occasions of running away, of crossing the floor, and of abdicating, and we did not do that. The mere fact that the hon Watson is willing today to try to absolve the Leader of the Opposition in terms of the role they played in the past, confirms the DA’s ambivalence. We were part of the old South Africa and we are proud of that! To now come and say … [Interjections.]]

Mr A WATSON: Chair, the speaker has stated that I tried to absolve the Leader of the Opposition. In other words, he agrees with the untruth that . . . [Interjections.] It is a point of order. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon members! [Interjections.] Order, hon Watson! Hon members, I think each and every member in this country has freedom of speech. Therefore we must learn to listen to a member even if what he says does not suit us as members. Please continue, hon member.

Mr K SINCLAIR: Thank you, hon Chairperson.

Toe die mense van Suid-Afrika gevra is om ’n bydrae te lewer, het sommige van ons, gegewe die bestel van destyds - waarvoor ons om verskoning gevra het - gesê ons is bereid om dit te doen. Net soos in die geval waar ons vandag gevra word om weer ’n bydrae te lewer, het die DP van toentertyd besluit om die “sagte posies” te vat.

Die Leier van die Opposisie, Tony Leon, het besluit om ’n joernalis vir Paratus te wees terwyl ander mense bereid was om ’n bydrae te lewer. [Tussenwerpsels.] Dit is jammer dat die DA vandag hierdie toespraak en hierdie begrotingspos in die modderpoel . . . [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[When the people of South Africa were asked to make a contribution some of us, given the dispensation at the time – for which we apologised – said we were willing to do so. Just as in the case today where we are once again being asked to make a contribution, the DA of old decided to take the little soft posts.

The Leader of the Opposition, Tony Leon, opted to be a journalist for Paratus while others were prepared to make a contribution. [Interjections.] It is regrettable that the DA today plunged this speech and this Budget Vote into a mud bath … [Interjections.]]

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, on a point of order: I would like to know whether what the hon Leon has done - his service in the military - has got anything to do with this debate. [Interjections.] Chairperson, according to Rule 53, I am entitled to make a point of order.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Continue, hon Sinclair.

Mr K SINCLAIR: Hon Chairperson, it’s unfortunate that the DA decided to use this platform today to get into the mud bath of cheap politics. This debate is supposed to be about the future of the institutions of the highest integrity in our country. It’s about the vision and mission of this Parliament.

In terms of that, the NNP welcomes the budget and we welcome the additional R100 million that is going to put instruments in place to serve the people of this country. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr T S SETONA: Hon Chairperson, hon members, distinguished special delegates, friends, colleagues and comrades, allow me to begin by extending a revolutionary salute to our parliamentary staff under the gallant leadership of Mr Zingile Dingani and Adv Luluma Matyolo for providing the sterling service of collating and translating operational and political imperatives of this august House into measurable and quantifiable elements that constitute the budget that we are debating today.

More importantly, your guidance on the obligation to comply with the requisite legislative and procedural requirements on a day-to-day basis is something that we cannot discount in building and consolidating Parliament into a true tribunal of our people.

As I said in the last budget policy debate of Parliament, in a democratic state the budget is not just a mere numerical exposition of figures in monetary terms, but an expression of a profound policy trajectory that seeks to impact on the lives of masses of our people. I went further to say that the real test of a good budget in a democratic developmental state is measured in terms of the impact it makes on the lives of the people.

Debating this Budget Vote of Parliament, as we do today, at a time when our country and its people are poised to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the Freedom Charter, we can with confidence reaffirm what Oliver Tambo said on the occasion of the 8 January 1985 statement:

By attacking, we defeated the efforts of the racist regime to mobilise the Indians and Coloured, or so-called Coloured, sections of the Black population into acceptance of the apartheid constitution.

By our refusal to be bullied into acceptance of the enemy’s constitutional schemes, we reaffirmed our determination to defend the unity of the Black people in pursuit of a common victory against a common enemy. We were asserting the truth that freedom is indivisible that freedom for some is freedom for none, and hence, that no section of the Black people can be free while another is oppressed.

It is in the attack that victory is to be found.

Let me repeat: “It is in the attack that victory is to be found.”

In this regard, neoliberalism will not wither naturally but through constant and vicious ideological attack. I think my attack against neoliberalism, as represented by the DA in the last debate, is proving and attesting to this reality, as said by Oliver Tambo some 20 years back.

During the period 1994 to 2004, the key focus of parliamentary work was the repeal and transformation of apartheid colonial legislation into legislation that reflects the values and principles of the new democratic constitution. In doing so, a myriad of structures and institutions dictated by the new legislative and constitutional landscape were established. Not much focus and attention was paid to the critical task of transforming Parliament to be responsive to the needs and aspirations of the ordinary masses of South African people.

By and large, during this period Parliament was still a monopoly of the small elite in our society who could understand its workings and how they could influence it with its values to take the country into a particular direction. If truth be told, not every ordinary man and woman, the youth, women and workers could seek a verdict from Parliament in their ordinary language, in the comfort of their culture and life experiences.

Thanks should go to the visionary and gallant leadership of Dr Frene Ginwala and Mrs Naledi Pandor for pioneering the vision and mission of Parliament, a road map that places the masses of our people at the centre of parliamentary work.

Under the leadership of the late chairperson of this august House, the late Joyce Kgoali, the third democratic Parliament saw the NCOP adopting the Vision 2009. This vision statement was an adaptation and elaboration of the broader spirit of the Vision and the Mission Statement of Parliament to define the particular programmatic and strategic priorities of this august House for this current term of Parliament.

At the centre of the Vision 2009 is a consolidation of the 2002 decision of this House to take Parliament to the people. No one but our people in the rural Eastern Cape, the North West, KwaZulu-Natal and Mpumalanga provinces, and indeed the entire South African masses at large, will attest that there was never a time for a real people’s parliament in action apart from their experience with the NCOP’s Taking Parliament to the People programme.

The programme, Taking Parliament to the People, has undoubtedly placed the masses of our people at the centre of ownership of governance. It has given practical and living expression to the Freedom Charter’s principle that the people shall govern.

No doubt, the memory and legacy of Joyce Kgoali to dedicate 70% of the work of this House to oversight, whilst 30% is dedicated to legislation, has become the defining hallmark of the NCOP in the recent past. This hallmark has transformed the NCOP into a true people’s parliament by assuring that our committees keep a constant and dynamic link with the masses of our people. This has enhanced the oversight role of this august House over the executive in a more qualitative and meaningful way.

The zeal and enthusiasm of our masses sparked by the NCOP programme of Taking Parliament to the People has forced a section of the opposition into desperation. That desperation has been displayed today. They have resorted to desperate tactics of demonising every step that seeks to consolidate the people’s government in action. [Interjections.]

Mr A L MOSEKI: Chairperson, I apologise for disrupting, but this member behind me has just said the member is lying. Could you ask the member to withdraw that?

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, could you please withdraw that statement?

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: I did say that there is a desperation when someone is lying. I didn’t refer to this member.

Mr A L MOSEKI: No, she said he is lying.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon members, we will check the records of the House. Continue, hon member.

Mr T S SETONA: Hon Chairperson, I must place it on record that Tony Leon was a conscious and a voluntary conscript of the apartheid killing machinery, the SA defence force. [Interjections.]

Mr A WATSON: On a point of order, Madam Chair: The member is again misleading this House - conscripts were not voluntary. It was the law of the country. He is misleading the House. I want to ask you to please ask him to withdraw that remark.

Mr J B TOLO: On a point of order, Chairperson: I just want to correct the member by saying that there were people who were not willing to serve in that machinery and that they objected and left the country and joined the MK. Thank you. [Laughter.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon members, could we please learn to listen and also allow other members to give their views.

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: On a point of order, Chairperson: What the member was just saying was in contravention of Rule 46 that says clearly that you can’t make a statement in this Council which you know is false. And what he suggested was exactly that. If you don’t want to make a ruling on this matter now, then I would ask you to go and study Hansard and make a ruling then. But what he said now was deliberately misleading this House. I ask you to rule on that.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I have been very quiet and listening carefully - because listening is also a skill. I have been observing these many points of order, and points of disorder, and I don’t think it really reflects the integrity this House deserves.

I would propose that we allow a flow of debate, and if there is ever any grave violation of the Rules, let us raise it accordingly. But it must not create a situation where, if I don’t agree with what Mr Watson is saying, then I will rise on a point of order or vice versa.

I will then propose that the hon Chair of Committees allows this debate to proceed. If there is anything that has been said in violation of the Rules of this House, I think the Presiding Officers, together with the Table staff are very much capable of coming back and giving feedback to this House. Thank you, Madam Chair.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Thank you, hon Chief Whip. Continue, hon member.

Mr T S SETONA: Chairperson, this reminds me of some important lessons about Bantu Education. It has not only damaged the brains of the Africans, but has also damaged the brains of millions of white Afrikaners and English- speaking people.

During the apartheid period nobody could say a policeman was drunk, even when he was drunk. It was treason. During the apartheid period nobody could say a leader, a white leader in particular, was something else. It was treason. So, I understand the frame of mind of hon Watson and why he is defending the fact that Tony Leon was a voluntary conscript of the SA defence force.

But let me come to the point. Chairperson, you cannot compare Robert McBride, a people’s hero and a people’s soldier who took up arms to defend this country against the war of apartheid, with Tony Leon. It was Robert McBride who took the responsibility, under the command of Umkhonto we Sizwe leadership, to attack Magoo’s Bar with a bomb. [Interjections.]

Mr A WATSON: I am rising on a point of order, Chairperson. Robert McBride was a murderer and this House cannot condone him as anything else. [Interjections.] It’s on record . . . [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, that is not a point of order. Could you please take your seat.

Mr A WATSON: Madam Chair, protect me too please. Do not just protect the Chief Whip. You must protect me too. My point of order is that the speaker is again making false statements . . . [Interjections.]

Mr T S SETONA: Chairperson, this is saying that the ANC is an organisation of murderers because Robert McBride has liberated this country. We are standing here today because of the selfless sacrifices that Robert McBride and other commanders and cadres of Umkhonto we Sizwe made in pushing back the frontiers of oppression, of which hon Watson was part. [Applause.]

Let me take this opportunity to congratulate sections of the opposition parties that have shown keen interest towards playing a constructive role in the fight against poverty, underdevelopment and joblessness.

I must also take a snipe at some sections of the opposition parties who find it opportune to find fault with every step that this Parliament wants to take. It is no secret that when we came back from the Mpumalanga Taking Parliament to the People, the media only reported on an allegation of overspending. They never told stories about men and women who, for the first time in their lives, were able to relate their joys and sorrows to their elected representatives.

They never told stories of a woman who told this august House about the painful experience that was faced by her 11-year-old child who was traumatised after having been molested at school. They never reported about those things! And we are saying that as we debate this Budget Vote of Parliament, we are debating nothing else but the lives of the ordinary masses of our people.

I want to conclude by saying that the ANC is not going to be cowed into submission by the bully colonial tactics that is displayed by the DA in this House. We are going to continue to attack their neoliberal agenda left, right and centre. I thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.][Laughter.]

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, on a point of order: I did not want to interrupt hon Setona’s speech, I think hon Watson must withdraw the statement in which he called one of our respected leaders of this country a murderer. He must withdraw. I do not want to go any further into it. This is a serious allegation against our hero, Mr McBride.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Watson, did you call Mr McBride a murderer? If you have done so, could you . . . [Interjections.]

Mr A WATSON: Chair, I did, because I am under the impression that he was found guilty of killing innocent people in Magoo’s Bar, which was certainly not a military target.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, this man, before we start calling him names, must now withdraw unconditionally, with due respect, please. That’s on a point of order, Chairperson.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Watson, could you withdraw the statement that Mr McBride was a murderer?

Mr A WATSON: Chair, you cannot rule against the courts of this country. McBride was found guilty of murder and he is a murderer.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon members, could you please take your seats? Could you please take your seat, hon Tolo. Hon members, could I request that I be given the opportunity to discuss the matter with the procedural staff and with the other presiding officers?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chair, before we continue I want to raise two things: Firstly, if a presiding officer makes a ruling we are obliged to respect that ruling. If you have any complaint against that ruling, Mr Watson, it is not the first time you are in Parliament, you know the procedure to follow in terms of dealing with that ruling.

Secondly, there has been an unfortunate incident in this House. When the Chairperson of the NCOP was still addressing us, a member came in with a sjambok, which is very unbecoming behaviour. [Interjections.] I then immediately requested that the sjambok be taken out of the House and, with due respect, I will request the member to apologise to the Chair of the NCOP and also to the House. Thank you. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: The member who came in with the sjambok, could he apologise? [Interjections.]

Mr D G MKONO: Chair, I am not sure what the Chief Whip is referring to. But if there is a case against my action, I would rather suggest that it is debated outside of this House, because a sjambok is inherent in my culture. I would have expected that I would have been asked why I had to do it. It has to do with my sickness, and I do not want reveal my sickness here. If the Chief Whip would like us to debate that further I would welcome such a debate.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, I think there are things we can bring into the House and there are also things we cannot bring into the House. So, could you apologise, hon member?

Mr D G MKONO: Chair, in view of your explanation I wish to withdraw, but in future I would ask further clarity about this, because I was not aware that it was not allowed.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: You do not have to withdraw, only to apologise, hon member.

Mr D G MKONO: I apologise. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Thank you, hon member.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): Chairperson, the aim behind this Budget Vote is to provide the support services required by Parliament to fulfil its constitutional function, to assist political parties represented in Parliament to secure administrative support and service constituents, and to provide members of Parliament with the necessary facilities they require to perform their work.

Our constitutional functions as Parliament are to pass legislation, scrutinise and oversee executive action, keep oversight over the executive and organs of state, facilitate public participation and involvement in the legislative and other processes, facilitate co-operative government, facilitate international participation and to participate in regional and continental and international bodies. We will be judged on our performance of these functions.

One of the ways of ensuring that people participate in the affairs of Parliament is actually to take Parliament to them. Yes, there has been misguided criticism of the programme of taking Parliament to the people, misguided, because it sought to suggest that costs should inhibit us from carrying out our constitutional imperative. This is not a choice we can make. The Constitution stipulates that we should provide a platform for public consideration of issues, and how then can we say we are doing that if our people do not have access to the institution?

Hon members should also note that a resolution that is passed by this House, whenever we want to sit elsewhere, pertains to our choice of place, and not whether we should sit elsewhere or not. Our Constitution enjoins us to provide this platform anywhere in the land on grounds of public interest. Therefore, there shall be no contention on whether we must, or must not, take this House to sit where our people are. We have a duty to serve all our people, wherever they are in the country.

The majority of the people that we represent live far away from Cape Town, and do not have the means to come to Parliament where Parliament is situated. With the resources that we are debating today we want to ensure that this House continues with its programme of ensuring that even the poorest of our people do take part in their Parliament.

The success of our programme of taking Parliament to the people can be seen in the decision of the legislative sector, Parliament and the provincial legislatures, to the effect that all legislative institutions should embark on a national drive of going to the people. For instance, towards achieving this, after our visit to Mpumalanga, the provincial legislature held a one- day sitting at Ermelo in an attempt to bring the legislature closer to the people.

The active participation of the people in Mpumalanga, and in other provinces previously, proves to us that this programme has the support of all people. The people themselves actively interacted with their national, provincial and local representatives, including national members.

The NCOP is, however, mindful of the fact that the success of this programme poses certain challenges to the NCOP as such. We have to ensure that these visits actually benefit the people; that we follow up on the issues that our people raise during these programmes, and that this programme actually changes the lives of our people for the better. However, we are confident that the NCOP will be able to positively address these challenges, more especially with the work of our committees, so that our people can enjoy a better life.

Ours is a people’s Parliament, a Parliament by the people for the people. It is the people who must have a say in the way they want to be governed. As we pursue our vision of an effective people’s parliament that is responsive to the needs of the people and that is driven by the ideal of realising a better quality of life for all the people of South Africa, we take pride in the fact that our Parliament is an open one. It is a different parliament to the one that obtained during the years of apartheid where ordinary citizens, because of the colour of their skins, were not allowed to set foot in this place.

Building a democratic parliament that is transparent and responsive to the electorate and that develops and follows a legislative agenda aimed at accelerating the transformation of South African society has been Parliament’s overriding policy and strategic objective since 1994. Recent years has seen a sharper focus being placed on Parliament’s function of exercising oversight and of participating in international organisations, events and forums.

At the same time, a renewed emphasis is being placed on public participation and involvement in parliamentary processes. In 2004 the third democratic Parliament was ushered in. Shortly after the election results were made official, new members of the third Parliament were called to the first sittings of the National Assembly and the NCOP. Almost a third of the members of the third Parliament were new.

In early January 2003 Parliament started to articulate a new vision, facilitated by the National Assembly and the NCOP. In July 2004 Parliament was presented with a draft Vision. After a lengthy period of consultation, the two Houses of Parliament adopted the Vision on 22 February 2005. The new Vision sets the new direction for Parliament and acknowledges the challenges and key issues facing the institution.

The key issues are those aspects that Parliament needs to attend to if services are to be provided at an acceptable level. The key issues which were contained in the strategic plan for Parliament for 2004-08 include the following: a growing demand for services emanating from parliamentary processes, including developments in the oversight process and increased international participation, including African Union structures such as the Pan-African Parliament and the SADC parliament; and the further development and implementation of institutional policies to guide implementation, including institutional governance and an institutional culture and communication supporting implementation, which will focus on the creation of a culture for Parliament that supports the delivery of effective and efficient services and improvement of internal and external communication.

These are some of the key issues before our Parliament, and which must assist to build an effective people’s Parliament that is responsive to the needs of the people, and that is driven by the ideal of realising a better quality of life for all the people of South Africa.

With regard to the issues raised in the Auditor-General’s report, which painted a bad picture in terms of our management of our finances, one of the key issues is the development and implementation of modern institutional systems, allowing for delivery, especially management and functional systems. Our institution has realised that it needs to improve the way it functions and efforts are already in place to ensure that this happens.

I now want to address hon Watson who says that these hon members of Parliament are being spoken of outside this Parliament. We cannot tar everybody with the same brush, and therefore the implementation of the strategic plan for 2004-08, which we unveiled recently, will set us on course towards the realisation of the aspirations of our people, and a vision of a people’s Parliament. I thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Business suspended at 11:20 and resumed at 14:01.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mr Minister, I can see you are surprised we haven’t prayed. We prayed this morning. We have had a sitting this morning and this session is a continuation of that sitting.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL
                           (Policy debate)

Vote No 20 - Correctional Services; Vote No 21 - Defence; Vote No 23 - Justice and Constitutional Development; and Vote No 24 - Safety and Security:

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Chairperson, the Department of Defence continues with its programme of transformation and of turning the department into a true custodian and instrument of safeguarding our nascent democracy. Part of this transformation process has included the empowerment, promotion and affirmation of people from historically disadvantaged groups, and an integration of the different armed formations consisting of men and women, black and white, coloured and Indian, whose passion is to be proud soldiers, ready to defend and die for their country if necessary.

When I spoke to the National Assembly last month I announced a number of appointments, namely that General Shoke has now become Chief of the SA Army, Admiral Mudimu has become Chief of the SA Navy, General Gagiano has become Chief of the SA Air Force and General Binda has become Chief of Joint Support, General Petane has become Inspector-General, General Matanzima has become Chief of Corporate Services, and General Cornelissen has become Chaplain-General.

I would like to take this opportunity to announce that, since I made the last speech, General Ngwenya has been appointed as the new Chief of the SA Defence Force, with effect from 1 June 2005. [Applause.] General Ramlakan will assume the position of Surgeon General of the SA National Defence Force, with effect from 1 August this year.

I take this opportunity to extend congratulations to the above-mentioned officers. I would also like to extend my warm and deep thanks to General Nyanda, who has served our country with distinction in various capacities, General Beukes, Admiral Retief, General Ramano, Rev Gqiba and General Van Rensburg - all of whom distinguished themselves in the particular areas in which they were entrusted with responsibility. [Applause.]

General Nyanda, the outgoing Chief of the SA National Defence Force, served this country with diligence and determination. He steered the transformation agenda of the Department of Defence with such integrity and acumen that we are now being sought across Africa to give advice and pass on our expertise regarding the integration of hostile forces and the demobilisation process. We are therefore duty-bound this afternoon to pay tribute to this outstanding officer.

May I add that I made this announcement while recognising that there are still no women lieutenants-general and majors-general in the top structure of the SA National Defence Force; and there is a very limited representation of women in the senior management of the Department of Defence as a whole. The main reason for this undesirable situation is that most of the formations we inherited when we set up the SA National Defence Force had no gender equality policy.

We have identified weaknesses in the recruitment process as one of the main reasons for the skewed representivity of women. However, the recruitment and training drive is now geared to correct this anomaly. With regard to the overall racial representivity, we have generally achieved the targets of the Defence Review as originally drawn up. We can now say that 64% of the National Defence Force is African, 11% coloured, 1% Asian and 24% white.

The challenge, however, from both a representivity and gender perspective, is at the middle-management layer, the combat musterings in the SA Air Force and SA Navy, the technical and engineering musterings, and at the very bottom where we need more white recruits. The point I am making is that the percentages I have referred to are not in the right places where they ought to be. That is something we must get right.

On a recent trip to Tunisia I visited a defence force facility that was similar in concept to the military skills development scheme. It trained young people in various skills during their one-year internship. The skills included engineering, motor mechanics, draughtsmanship and other technical skills applicable to both military and civilian purposes. We are looking at incorporating this concept into the military skills development scheme.

As part of our agenda, we continue to strive to enhance, strengthen and capacitate the Defence Secretariat in order to enable it to perform its tasks effectively. Civil oversight is central to the concept of defence in a democracy. The secretariat is one of the instruments for ensuring civil control of the military. Despite difficulties, we must understand that effective civil oversight and the smooth operation between the SA National Defence Force and the Defence Secretariat takes time and requires patience, tolerance and constant interaction.

We are in the process of reviewing the Defence Review and the White Paper on Defence. When we embarked on the White Paper process and the review in 1994, peacekeeping did not feature significantly. Our efforts were concentrated on transforming the defence function from an offensive posture to a defensive one. The review of the Defence Review and the White Paper aims to bring into alignment our new priorities, and has highlighted a number of challenges that need to be considered and confronted.

Our force design needs to be of an appropriate size and composition. We are painfully aware of the demands on the national budget. If we are to carry out the tasks assigned by government, we have to fashion a suitable force design. The force design suggested in the White Paper and Defence Review was based on the tasks of maintaining our defence capabilities and our support for the police. This needs to be adjusted now.

The National Defence Force remains structured according to the core force doctrine which will enable us, if necessary, to ratchet up our capabilities to meet conventional threats if and when necessary. The adjustment of our major training towards peacekeeping does not detract from the core force concept.

We are not creating an SA National Defence Force of peacekeepers. We are training a professional body of men and women, schooled in the arts of defence, who can use their skills in peacekeeping roles and postconflict reconstruction and development.

Some of our efforts must now focus on the transformation of our training. This review must encompass the syllabi and different methods of training. Attention must also be given to our military training institutions, which need to be properly equipped, maintained and, in many cases, renovated.

We have been decreasing our involvement in internal security for some years now. As the SA Police Service streamlines and professionalises, they are taking over more and more of the security functions for which they are trained. This is as it should be in a normal democratic society.

The armed forces should not be involved in routine police security work. The process of phasing out the commando units is proceeding according to schedule. I can assure this House that the SANDF will not withdraw from any area until there is a proper plan and capacity to enable the SA Police Service to take over that work.

This work also includes making an accurate assessment of the requirements of the reserve force. As a result of the work being done on the Defence Review and White Paper, the reserve force is now receiving greater attention, and is being fashioned into a force that needs our requirements. We have, as a consequence, already started deploying the reserve force in our peacekeeping missions, but the rejuvenation of the reserve force will be necessary for further deployments to happen.

As part of the strategic defence package, we are acquiring sophisticated and advanced technical expertise. A defence technology strategy needs to be created, encompassing all facets of the work needed to use, maintain and support this equipment. This strategy will determine the work of Armscor and the rest of the defence and defence-related industries.

Both Minister Erwin of Public Enterprises and I are working jointly to guide the process of rationalising and streamlining Denel and Armscor. Both entities must complete their transformation to be able to meet our defence requirements. There is now a need to prioritise peace missions and give peacekeeping its correct place in the roles and functions of the SANDF.

The genocide in Rwanda in 1994 shocked Africa and the world into recognising the urgency of conflict prevention and conflict resolution. For the countries of our continent the only response is to commit ourselves to the eradication of such conflict and ensuring that they never happen again. One of the most important lessons we have learnt from the Rwandan genocide is that the peacekeepers were inadequate and incapable of stopping the genocide. General Henry Anyidoho, former Deputy Commander of the UN Mission in Rwanda, has written as follows:

Failure started from the onset because of a wrong assessment of the situation and improper synchronization of troops and equipment to task – especially when signs of danger were looming.

He goes on:

Of what use were a bunch of soldiers with blue helmets to a community that was badly in need of food, medicine, shelter, clothing, hospitals and schools for their children?

It is clear therefore that peacekeeping entails a great deal more than sending in a few soldiers to staff roadblocks. The President referred in his state of the nation address to our troops as “midwives of peace, stability and prosperity”. The SANDF is a visible and tangible instrument of our foreign policy, the principles of the New Partnership for Africa’s Development and the African Renaissance.

At the top of the agenda for the African leadership today has been the recognition that development and subsequent prosperity will only materialise if the continent achieves sustainable peace, stability and a focus on postconflict reconstruction. The status of the Peace and Security Committee of the African Union reflects the importance and commitment placed on peace and stability for the continent to develop and fulfil its potential. Thus the issue of peacekeeping is catapulted to the top of the agenda of each and every African country, for it has become part of the drive for democracy and sovereignty.

The thrust of Nepad is that Africa must take responsibility for itself. The countries of Africa together, through the continental and regional structures, must and will take the lead in solving the problems on the continent. We understand that conflict arises out of a scarcity of resources but quite often also out of manipulation of situations in our countries by external players whose priority is not the welfare of Africa.

Recently, there has been doubt cast on the correctness of our decision to acquire a new strategic airlift. This criticism fails to take account of the fact that one of the main constraints on Africa resolving conflict and benefiting from its own natural resources is the absence of a developed infrastructure. This myopic approach is blind to the fact that moving across the African continent is still highly problematic and exorbitantly expensive. It is still easier to connect via Europe than directly from one African country to another.

Our experience in dealing with disaster management and peacekeeping has highlighted these problems with an urgency impossible to ignore. Similarly, the obligations of postconflict reconstruction and development such as building roads, railways, towns, schools, hospitals, libraries, banks and exchanges will require the transportation of heavy construction equipment like fork-lift trucks and cranes. Only if these can be transported from point to point can this continent start realistically to plan its development.

A strategic airlift capacity is therefore indispensable in the absence of a functioning infrastructure. Whilst the primary beneficiary of the A440M Airbus Military will be South Africa, the secondary beneficiary is the continent of Africa.

This aircraft is essentially a transport aircraft. It is not a war or combat plane. It is not armed to engage in battle. In the immediate and medium term it will transport troops, heavy construction equipment, large amounts of food and grain, or pharmaceuticals and personnel. Given our national and continental objectives, in the long term, it will be available for developmental work. Our participation in the A400M programme will stimulate our technology industry and place our continent amongst the leaders of the global aerospace industry.

There are too many challenges to successful peacekeeping for us to discuss on this occasion. They range from the lack of cooking and ablution facilities, absence of fixed and moveable accommodation to long lines of logistical support, all of which have made our peacekeeping missions very problematic.

One of the complex difficulties we have encountered is that of working with the armed forces of other countries. Differences in background, culture and language raise the need to consider the possibilities of peacekeeping training in theatre.

Another area that needs to be looked at is the provision of legal services and legal support on the ground. Wherever the SANDF is deployed, legal expertise needs to be provided. This would cover a basic level right up to a more sophisticated and well-versed and learned level. In addition, continued monitoring of the appropriateness of the UN mandate needs to be carried out.

It is with pride that I therefore inform the House that seven SADC countries, including South Africa, have ratified the Southern African Development Community Mutual Defence Pact. It reflects the commitment of the countries of our region to ensure peace and stability in the region. We will continue to move together, as a collective, in sustaining this peace, in developing our region and in contributing to peace and stability on the continent. The existence of the SADC Mutual Defence Pact binds us into a SADC community of nations, and defines our collective border. As part of our collective effort, the SADC region is now completing its work on an early-warning centre, which should be operational by 2006.

With regard to the African Standby Force, the SADC region commenced staffing a multinational planning team in Gabarone in February, which will assist the day-to-day management of the SADC Brigade activities and will monitor readiness. It is anticipated that by 30 June 2005, the SADC Brigade will be structured and ready to participate in peace missions, as and when ordered by the African Union.

The key to successful peacekeeping is to provide multidisciplinary training for our officer corps. All our efforts should be put into the comprehensive training of our peacekeepers. The training will give our soldiers military skills, but must also include conflict resolution, negotiation and humanitarian actions. International humanitarian law and the law of armed conflict has been part of our peacekeeping training for a number of years now. In this regard, the Civic Education Board is being reviewed in terms of size and effective functioning, and will contribute to this process. Peacekeepers must understand what it is they are doing so that the people with whom they come into contact are treated with the necessary respect and dignity. This is an area in which considerable resources will have to be deployed in the current year.

I am glad to announce that in the . . . Chairperson, I am sorry. Apparently, the machine lost part of my speech here. I can only whisper that to you.

Nevertheless, let me say that in the words of former UN Secretary-General, Dag Hammarskjöld, “Peacekeeping is not a soldier’s job, but only a soldier can do that”. Our nation must invest in its soldiers. I thank you. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Thank you very much, Chairperson. In 2003 the JCPS cluster of Cabinet – Justice, Crime Prevention and Security – conducted crime and sociographic profiles of 63 police station areas that were adjudged as areas where most serious and violent crimes happened.

As a result of that we got together with provincial and local governments to define how we would use, as a consequence, plans at those levels to ensure that we also defined into such plans matters relating to safety and security. Subsequently, development projects were designed as a measure to prevent crime from taking place.

Planning sessions to take the matter forward were held at which projects that were already planned and budgeted for, and additional projects that needed to be planned were part of the discussion. Details with respect to this are being finalised.

However, I should announce to this House that strides in the implementation of the development projects have been made by the Western Cape, the Eastern Cape, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo and the North West. Further work to entrench crime prevention and combating in the various hot spots in the country necessitated a review of the original profiles increasing, in the circumstances, to include 169 of the police station areas that required further attention from all the law-enforcement agencies.

The JCPS cluster departments participate in the local and provincial task teams for rural nodes to implement crime-prevention and safety and security programmes in line with the work plan for each specific node of the interdepartmental task team that was set up to lead the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development and Urban Renewal Programmes. The Department of Provincial and Local Government pulls all the initiatives together as the lead department.

The focus of the current work is social crime prevention and dedicated attention to families and children at risk, as well as school safety. The SA Police Service espouses more than ever before the principle that a partnership between the police and communities is essential for effective service delivery. The importance the SAPS is attaching to service delivery is demonstrated by the planned imminent deployment of its top management, including the national commissioner, deputy national and divisional commissioners to the 63 high-crime areas in all nine provinces.

The purpose of the deployment is to ascertain the management capabilities of station commissioners and to analyse obstacles to service delivery. The interaction at that level will also help build leadership and expertise. The senior police members will also direct the crime-prevention activities I announced a fortnight ago in which patrols and raids will be mounted in the priority crime areas.

The deployments will be as follows: the national Commissioner, Jackie Selebi, will go the North West. The following deputy national commissioners will be deployed as follows: Hamilton Hlela will go to the Eastern Cape; Andre Pruis to Gauteng; Louis Eloff also to Gauteng; Mala Singh – she is sitting down there – is going to be here in the Western Cape, and today she has already done some work in the province, the last port of call being the Langa police station; and Tim Williams, who will be deployed in KwaZulu- Natal.

The following divisional commissioners will be deployed, as follows: Ray Lalla is going to go to the Free State; Johan de Beer will also be in the Free State; Arno Lamoer will be based in Limpopo; Wilson Makhubela will be based in Mpumalanga; and Sean Tshabalala will be based in the Northern Cape.

The people that I have mentioned are going to be in the provinces that have been identified for at least one month initially. They will be working together with the station commissioners there to ensure that our work of policing happens in circumstances that are conducive to such work. A manual on social crime-prevention practices has been completed, and will be used during the visits by senior police management to the provinces to assist stakeholders to plan and implement social crime-prevention programmes.

I do also want to announce to the members of this House that for the first time last year a platoon of women completed their training as members of the police special task force. This was the first time that this has ever happened in South Africa. [Applause.] There should be more applause, given the fact that these women underwent a particular type of training that has produced in South Africa the best-trained people in crime combating. The courses that they underwent were very difficult and few people usually complete the training. But these women, through perseverance, through dedication, through the will to win, and through wonderful resilience, completed that course.

I also want to refer to some of the international work that members of the SA Police Service are doing. I want to concentrate, in the main, on two projects that the police are involved in at this time. The first project relates to the Democratic Republic of the Congo where we recently signed a memorandum of understanding with respect to the work we are doing in that country in order to help the Congolese establish a police service from the plus-minus 100 000 people who have been identified as potential candidates to serve as such.

What we have been doing in the past months has been to train commanders who are going to take charge of the members of that police service. We have also trained 30 000 members who are going to be responsible for crowd management.

We are also present in Sudan. I was supposed to have gone to Darfur yesterday, but unfortunately we did not make arrangements in time with this House to ensure that the Deputy Minister would deliver this speech today. I am very sorry about that. The task in Darfur was a very important task, because for the first time we were going to put in place there some of the members who were going to be part and parcel of the international team that was going to deploy as a civil police structure in Darfur.

South Africa is going to be leading that international team to ensure that there will be a police service in Darfur that is well trained to deal with matters of crime prevention and crime combating in that part of the world.

I do also wish to indicate that, together with the army and other members from the various departments of state in our country, we have been responsible for training sessions, especially for those people who come from the south of Sudan, as part and parcel of South Africa’s international obligations.

I now wish to deal with our provinces. I want to start with the Western Cape where our police management has adopted a very, very interesting stance on crime prevention and combating. They have adopted a system they refer to as the People-Orientated Sustainable Strategy, Poss. The pillars of the strategy are as follows: target crime reduction of at least 10%, especially of contact crimes; sustainability in effective crime reduction; high service standards; active management; stronger accountability of performance.

After identifying eight crime stations in the Western Cape, those where contact crimes occur regularly were restructured. Crime offices were established at the stations to ensure that investigating officers were available on a 24-hour basis. Immediate investigation of cases, professional crime-scene management and data integrity contributed to an improved detection rate and to more cases being referred to court. I’m sure the MEC for the province is going to talk some more with regard to that matter.

What I want to indicate is that at Khayelitsha we have a control centre where we are able to look at all matters that relate to policing. In terms of this, all crime-prevention and combating actions within the crime zone are co-ordinated. They target high-crime areas according to the relevant crime-pattern analysis. An integrative working methodology between crime prevention, community service centres, crime offices, radio control – that is the 10 111 number – as well as other force multipliers have led to an improved reaction time and more efficient service delivery. There are 40 vehicles servicing that area that are equipped with a tracker system to monitor their utilisation.

In other words, as these vehicles go out, the person sitting in the control room is able to see where they are at any given time and what they are doing. They will know, therefore, if a vehicle is driven to a shebeen and is stationary there. They know the times when those vehicles have to be used and they know, among other things, when those vehicles are driven at high speed. This is because the idea behind this is to ensure that they do proper patrols in the township. In other words, they must check what is happening.

However, the greatest advantage of these vehicles and the manner in which they are controlled is the fact that when there is a call-in, indicating a problem in any part of the township, the person in the control room will know which vehicle is close to the area where the crime is happening. They activate that vehicle and direct the vehicle to the place where the crime is happening.

We want to improve the system so that, in the end, it also uses co- ordinates in that what will be fed to the vehicle will simply be a co- ordinate to say, for instance, that between these co-ordinates there is a particular house and there is a problem. Already, the way in which we have designed this for Khayelitsha has resulted in a drop – a very drastic drop – in crime in that area.

Of course, this is going to be taken to all the provinces so that we enjoy the same benefits that have accrued to people in Khayelitsha. But the increased, co-ordinated police action stemming from the new approach in the province has largely been responsible for huge decreases in crime.

The police were able to take the following actions: arrests and seizures for illegal firearms; drug-related crimes; rape and murder; deliberate action against illegal liquor outlets that were generators of criminal activities; roadblocks for the purpose of searching vehicles and persons; and the implementation of sector policing at all contact crime stations.

Provincial management set a target of arresting at least one high flyer per station, per month. Improvements in intelligence and internal communication resulted in the arrest of a significant number of high flyers that are currently before the court. The high flyers are crime bosses who themselves have not soiled their hands in the commission of crime, but are using runners for this purpose; and this has been the case for a very long time in the past. They have avoided detection and therefore arrests. But using sophisticated intelligence, we have been able to get to them and, as I have already indicated, a number of them – a good number - are already before our courts.

About Limpopo, I want to say the following: In the first instance, that policing in rural areas, especially among previously disadvantaged communities, has always been difficult. Accessibility of services among such communities constituted a major problem, but SAPS in the Limpopo province did something, which is an innovation. They converted a truck into a mobile community service centre.

In a sense, they have now been able to take services to the doorsteps of people in those rural areas; they are now able to lay charges, make affidavits or certify documents. What has happened is that, as a consequence of that innovation, they received an award from United Nations for the best innovation in public service. [Applause.] There may be more recognition in store for the Limpopo police, given that they have been invited to Korea for the Global Forum on Reinventing Government, to make a presentation on the concept of mobile community service centres.

The Province also embarked on a project to assist vulnerable children and homeless people with a view to addressing the challenge of the involvement of homeless people, and children, in the commission of crime. The success of this project was realised when three homeless children were assisted with registering with the University of Limpopo, while others were placed in gainful employment. The detective rate of the province of Limpopo on priority, contact, integrated and property crimes stands at the average of 70%, which has pushed them to the top of the pile, as the best province where such investigations are happening; which is a challenge to other provinces to try and do likewise.

With regard to property crimes, especially the theft of motor vehicles, the province initiated an intelligence-driven integrated operation involving four provinces. These provinces came together and conducted an operation to eliminate the market for stolen vehicles. As a consequence, twelve scrap yards were closed during the year under review. Therefore, this exercise led to the reduction of theft of motor vehicles in the Province by 7%.

I do not want to refer to the prominent case in the province, in Phalaborwa, where some people fed a human being to lions, but what I want to mention about it is the exhaustive investigative work that was done by the detectives there. It shows how well our detectives have been trained, particularly in current circumstances where we are using simulations of realities of crimes as they happen on the ground as part and parcel of our training. During the year under review, the province also managed to instal network infrastructures in all its police stations, which will assist the province to improve data capturing of all crimes.

In the Northern Cape last year we placed a number of people, especially from the area crime combating units, to constitute the first deployments with respect to border control. They were placed on the border between the Northern Cape, Botswana and Namibia. As a consequence of their training, which is of a high standard, and the resources that they have been provided with, I would like members of the justice, crime prevention and security cluster, JCPS, to actually go to that particular area; also just to see the tents that we have supplied to the people. They are well equipped and nicely conditioned, but the circumstances under which our members are working there are very good, and they indicate our government’s adherence to good employment practices, relating to better conditions of life for our people. Therefore, you will never even say that they are placed at the back of beyond, so to speak. The area that they cover is 1 064 km along that border. There are bases that have been established in Middelputs, Rietfontein and Nakop. People who come from the Northern Cape will know these places. Overnight bases exist at Gemsbok and McCarthys Rust. The next phase, of course, will be the area between the Republic of South Africa and Namibia, from Nakop to Alexander Bay.

Priorities for the new financial year are social and contact crimes. A project has been registered to curb social crimes in partnership with nongovernment and government organisations. In the Northern Cape they are using closed-circuit televisions, which have assisted in the reduction of crime.

The Eastern Cape continues to use the highway patrols, particularly to deal with car hijackings and cash-in-transit heists. There has been an addition to their vehicle fleet, which is designed, amongst other things, to ensure the safety of tourists who travel through the province.

They also continue to use mounted horse units, given the kind of territory that they have to cover in their crime combating. This is available around the Port Elizabeth, East London and Umtata districts but a feasibility study is being done with the objective of extending this service to Grahamstown and the Drakensberg.

They have established 26 victim-friendly facilities at police stations throughout the province. They particularly want to ensure that there is assistance and support to victims of domestic violence in the province. Priority is going to be given to 29 police stations that have been asked, particularly, to deal with this type of crime. They have also established sector policing in 81 sectors and these are operational in 30 police stations.

Contact crime has also gone down, but attention continues to be given to a number of police station areas where these contact crimes continue to happen; especially in Mdantsane and Motherwell, which are presidential police stations.

In the Free State, something new again happened. Our counterparts in Lesotho confiscated 133 firearms inside Lesotho. They did not know how to destroy them. Therefore, I appealed to South Africa to assist in this regard and those firearms were destroyed in the Free State.

When we did our crime and sociographic profiles, Batho was identified in the Free State as an area where the most serious and violent crimes happen, but there is a turnaround with respect to that, because one of the weaknesses that we had regarding that particular area was that it was a very large area to have only one police station. So, two more police stations have been added to the one old police station in Batho, which is resulting in the changes that are happening.

The SAPS started a new programme in March, where 17 police reservists and eight permanent members of the SA Police Service were trained to become trainers of reservists. This is as a consequence, and I am sure you will recall, of the announcements we have made in the past that we want to recruit as many as a 100 000 police reservists to participate in our newly formatted police reservists system, as it relates particularly to area crime combating. These reservists were trained in the Free State.

There are also various projects that have been happening in Batho in the Free State. And one of them is the cleaning campaign where, together with the community police forums, big business and correctional services, certain areas were identified that have an environment that is harmful to people because they were used by criminals to mount criminal acts, particularly around schools and hostels. We have cleared some of these areas to make them visible to people all around.

In KwaZulu-Natal many of the crimes that happened in that province have gone down, but we have the exception of rape, which indicates what is happening nationally because when you consider national statistics, as well, we continue to have a problem in this regard.

Even though there have been crimes that have been going down, there is also something else that is happening, which is an increase in the way in which we are detecting crime, particularly where drugs play a role. The consequence is that we have been able to identify and shut down some of the underground laboratories that are used to produce drugs.

There continues to be taxi violence in our country, and KwaZulu-Natal has not evaded this. Particularly, there was a tense moment when taxi associations from Stanger and Maphumulo were involved in a dispute. But a breakthrough was made when four suspects were arrested and four firearms recovered. The suspects were linked to a further six murders and five attempted murders in the taxi industry. This has helped us to douse the conflict.

In Gauteng crime has also gone down, particularly crimes that relate to women and children. If you compare, for instance, the financial periods 2003-04 and 2004-05, you will discover that there have been decreases. More than 2 000 people have been arrested, which means that arrests have increased to 5 300, and convictions with respect to these types of crimes have gone up by 22,7%.

I do wish to indicate also that, as is the case all over our country, the question of drugs continues to be a problem. But those who brazenly use our ports of entry to bring in these drugs were affected, for instance, when we arrested four people at the Johannesburg International Airport and seized a huge consignment of cocaine with a street value of R19 million.

In Gauteng there are also social crime prevention projects that have been set up, particularly the establishment of victim-support centres. Twenty- one of these centres have already been established. At Orange Farm there are women and children who are involved in a project called Women’s Desk, which is designed to monitor, prevent and combat violence against women and children.

On the West Rand the Department of Social Development has upgraded what is referred to as the West kids’ Private Facility in order to accommodate homeless children. This is part and parcel of the project which has been established as a joint effort by a number of stakeholders, ie the Ministries of Safety and Security, Justice and Constitutional Development, Correctional Services, Sport and Recreation, and so on, in order to ensure that we identify homeless children and put them in places of safety, and attempt to reunify them with their parents.

In Gauteng the SAPS also actively participated in the take-a-girl-child-to- work campaign, which is an initiative designed to get young girls involved in work and to use their hands so that they are taken away from crime. In Mpumalanga, we had problems that were taxi-industry related but we were also able to deal with that particular matter. One taxi owner was arrested and sentenced to life imprisonment, as well as 10 years for attempted murder.

A truck that was coming to the Western Cape from Swaziland was hijacked. Meat valued at R700 000 was recovered. In North West we have also established sector policing in 93 police stations. This has significantly reduced crime but has also resulted in the arrest of 36 684 suspects involved in priority crimes.

The last thing I want to say is about the firearms amnesty. You would have been surprised if I did not mention that. I was very well trained in the usage of firearms but I don’t like them, because firearms, particularly small firearms, are used to kill people. There are many South Africans who have been killed as a consequence of firearms. All that we are asking for, with respect to those who have these firearms, is responsible firearm control so that our children do not have easy access to our firearms and kill one another at home; so that our young children, boys and girls, who are suffering from stress, do not use these firearms to commit suicide; and so that family members who may be disturbed as a result of some or other circumstance do not use firearms against family members. I am talking about issues that you are well aware of.

When we declared the firearms amnesty from 1 January 2005 to 23 May, we had collected and therefore taken out of circulation 75 816 firearms. [Applause.] Of course, those firearms can be categorised into three groups. The first category is firearms that were handed in as a consequence of the firearms amnesty. The second one is firearms that were handed in by legal owners who no longer want to possess those firearms. The third type is firearms that the police were able confiscate, through their investigations.

The situation in the provinces, with respect to these firearms, is as follows: In the Eastern Cape the police were able to confiscate 1 261 firearms, but firearms that were handed in as part and parcel of the amnesty were 2 132; people who voluntarily handed in their firearms put in 3 573 pieces. In the Free State the police were able to confiscate 3 376 firearms, but people who took advantage of the amnesty submitted 2 649 firearms; and, 2 994 firearms were voluntarily handed in. In Gauteng 11 608 firearms were submitted voluntarily; the police were able to confiscate 5 217, whereas 8 343 were handed in as part and parcel of the amnesty.

In KwaZulu-Natal we obviously need to do more work there because the police confiscated 3 168 firearms; people who handed in firearms as a consequence of the amnesty put in 3 889 pieces; and those who handed in their firearms voluntarily put in 4 750. In Limpopo the police were able to confiscate 481 firearms; for amnesty purposes, 463 firearms were handed in; and firearms that were voluntarily handed in were 1 047. In Mpumalanga 564 firearms were confiscated by the police; 474 were amnesty firearms, and 725 were firearms voluntarily handed in. In North West 410 was the number of firearms that the police confiscated; amnesty firearms were 1 088, and the firearms voluntarily handed in were 1 770. In the Northern Cape 106 firearms were confiscated by the police, 880 were for the amnesty, and 973 were firearms handed in voluntarily. In the Western Cape 1 516 firearms were confiscated by the police; regarding amnesty, 5 667 pieces were submitted, while voluntary submissions yielded 7 498 pieces. This gives you the total of 75 816 firearms that have been taken out of circulation. Thank you very much, Chairperson. [Applause.]

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Hon Chairperson, hon delegates, today 11 years ago, delivering the inaugural state of the nation address, former President Nelson Mandela laid down the vision and the programmatic framework for our democracy when he observed that:

. . . the purpose that will drive this government shall be the expansion of the frontiers of human fulfilment, the continuous extension of the frontiers of freedom. The acid test of the legitimacy of the programmes we elaborate, the government institutions we create, the legislation we adopt must be whether they serve these objectives.

During this year, the 50th anniversary of the adoption of the Freedom Charter, which contains the demands of the vast majority of the people of South Africa, it would be appropriate that we take the important step further forward in the realisation of the demands contained in the Freedom Charter and subsequently in our Constitution. Our programmes, the institutions we created, the legislation we have promulgated and our judicial system should serve the purpose of expanding the frontiers of freedom and the fulfilment of our people.

The challenge, therefore, for all of us in this decade is to make certain that we deliver on the promise of our Constitution – to build a South Africa that belongs to all who live in it. This is our national covenant. This is our covenant with one another as citizens of this country.

It is because we are continuously seeking to expand the frontiers of creating a better life for all South Africans that we as the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security cluster will conduct a comprehensive cluster review of the entire criminal justice system. The review of the criminal justice system is intended to look at how the criminal justice system works insofar as it involves the various departments within the JCPS cluster, while having regard for the interests of all involved in or exposed to the process.

This may involve questions about the structure and composition of the courts, their relationships with other parts of the criminal justice system, procedures and aspects relating to policy and the impact and effectiveness of legislation passed to improve court efficiency. The proposed review procedure with all logistical arrangements, including funding issues, will be placed before Cabinet soon.

One of the most important changes to the justice system in the past decade has been the creation of the National Prosecuting Authority. The Directorate of Special Operations, or DSO, and the Asset Forfeiture Unit have made significant contributions to the battle against organised crime. To ensure that we continue improving our capacity in fighting crime throughout the cluster, we are currently conducting a review of the mandate and relation of the Directorate of Special Operations with intelligence and security bodies.

In April 2005 our President appointed a Commission of Inquiry into the mandate and location of the Directorate of Special Operations. The commission led by Justice Khampepe has recently commenced with its work by inviting submissions.

It is critical that the criminal justice system functions well across its entire chain – investigations, arrests, prosecutions, finalisation of cases in time, and aspects relating to awaiting-trial detainees and prisoners, including the rehabilitation of offenders.

The Office of the Public Protector, together with two other Chapter 9 institutions, the Commission for Gender Equality and the Human Rights Commission, is involved in the Civil Society Advocacy Programme. The programme, sponsored by the European Commission, is intended to strengthen constitutional democracy in South Africa and facilitate access to constitutional rights for vulnerable groups.

It is envisaged that the programme will foster deeper levels of communication, awareness and contact between stakeholders, Chapter 9 institutions and civil society organisations. I hope that this will lead to better service delivery through concerted efforts to collaborate and assist all levels of government in meeting the constitutional rights of citizens.

This intervention will address the weakness in civil society advocacy and the undercapacity of Chapter 9 institutions. The programme, which begins this year, will run as a pilot initiative for three years in three provinces with a vast rural population, and these are KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo and the Eastern Cape. The Office of the Public Protector is also in the process of opening a further two regional offices in Siyabuswa, Mpumalanga, as well as in George in the Western Cape. This is in addition to the current nine provincial offices and the four regional offices.

Re Aga Boswa, as you all know, is our flagship project. We are in the second year of this project, which has to do with the restructuring programme. As you know, colleagues, the project is intended to enhance court efficiency by establishing a new management culture of courts, which is customer-focused and based on Batho Pele principles.

The project has concluded its pilot phase in KwaZulu-Natal, where we tested and refined the new court management model. This management model ensures that court managers are entrusted with the management of courts, thereby ensuring that judges and, indeed, magistrates are relieved of administrative and management responsibilities, which they have been performing in the past, thus making it possible for them to invest more of their time in judicial work. We are considering rolling out the project to other provinces.

In our quest for accessible justice for all, we are continuously looking at the provision of adequate infrastructure, especially in areas where there was none before. One of our key priorities this year is therefore the finalisation of the process of the rationalisation of the High Courts and the redemarcation of magisterial districts.

As I indicated in the Budget Vote address in the National Assembly last Friday, this exercise entails the rationalisation of the service areas of the supreme courts in the former homelands so that they are in line with the new constitutional order. The Superior Courts Bill, which seeks to rationalise and align courts with provincial boundaries to enhance access, will come to Parliament soon.

One of our key priorities as the JCPS cluster is to ensure the protection of vulnerable members of society. To ensure that this is done and to make a positive impact on the lives of the people, we are striving to bring a range of court facilities closer to the communities.

Underlying the concept of access to justice for all is the notion that justice should be accessible to all equally and effectively. We are therefore seeking to facilitate easy access to justice, and as you know, this is a great concern for women. We are trying to fast-track the appointment of maintenance officers and maintenance investigators to reduce the backlog in maintenance cases.

May I say that we actually already have best-practice models in this area and I think that the Gauteng project in Johannesburg is really a fantastic place to visit. It would be good if members could really keep an eye on matters of maintenance for us, because we really are dedicated and committed to ensuring that we deliver in this regard.

As colleagues know, we have a number of specialised courts. We are now consolidating our specialised courts and reviewing our courts with a view to really looking at what needs to be done. It may well be that we should be considering expansion, but there are also indications that we need to enhance capacity in many of these specialised courts, so we are doing that review.

We are also building capacity for the implementation of the Domestic Violence Act. As colleagues know, this is a very serious concern for many South Africans and for many of us who are here on the mandate of the people. We are particularly concerned about the levels of domestic violence in our communities; in fact, if I can just say that I am preparing to have extensive discussion with NGOs that are working in this area just to find a way of addressing the issue.

I think you’ll agree with me, colleagues, that we have to have a discussion not only with NGOs, but in that forum in which we have this discussion we must make sure that leaders of communities are also engaged in this regard. Obviously, one is going to work very closely with the Gender Commission, but our amakhosi should come to the discussions, as well, as well as our religious leaders.

A lot has been done in this regard. There have been many discussions in various fora. What we need to do is pull together to bring together the thinking around this matter, and even bring in experts. So, indeed, as we are building capacity for the implementation of the Domestic Violence Act, we should also begin to engage around these issues, and I’m preparing for that.

We are going to be fast-tracking the implementation of the Promotion of Equality and Prevention of Unfair Discrimination Act, and once again here, even as we use the law and the legal system to caution people, I don’t think anything can beat education, however. So whilst we are fast-tracking the Promotion of Equality and Prevention of Unfair Discrimination Act, we have to review our educational programmes.

One should then also remind the House here that our Ministry is not only about Justice, but also about promoting constitutionalism and therefore promoting the values enshrined in the Constitution so that the processes of fast-tracking the implementation of an Act should go hand in hand, concurrent, with educational programmes. And, of course, this programme of building and upgrading courts was started by my predecessor, and we are continuing with this programme.

As we talk about access, let me also indicate that we are strengthening family courts, and this is visible in the following areas: Cape Town, Port Elizabeth, Durban and Lebowakgomo. This is to ensure that service improvement can be rolled out to all family courts in the country. Accordingly, we have started with the maintenance sections in each of these courts and will be moving to strengthening other divisions of the family courts.

With regard to child justice, the improvement of service delivery in children’s courts is also receiving attention through the proposed new chapter in the Children’s Bill. The Bill seeks to considerably widen the powers of presiding officers in children’s courts. Legal representation of children, the extra training of personnel and the appropriate resourcing of children’s courts are receiving attention. In anticipation of the promulgation of the Child Justice Bill, a process of developing a policy and guidelines for one-stop child justice centres has begun.

The three existing centres are in Port Nolloth, Bloemfontein and Port Elizabeth. The purpose of these centres is to divert children, as much as possible from the mainstream criminal justice system by way of fast- tracking, intersectoral assessments, alternative placements, diversions, and child justice court hearings. And, as you know, this has been a challenge for us for many years, and I just hope that we are about to turn the corner.

The small claims court structure is an inexpensive tool that was created to settle minor civil disputes in an informal manner and also to make justice more accessible to all persons regardless of their race, gender, location or social origin. Our aim is to provide justice processes that are fast, effective and reasonably cheap. Our focus in the last years has been to establish as many small claims courts as possible in the rural and outlying areas of the country.

To date, we have established 154 small claims courts throughout the country. As our democracy matures, it is increasingly important that we reach more and more of our people, and that is exactly what the small claims courts are intended to do. We expect the successful transformation and re-engineering process of the small claims courts to go a long way towards making a real difference in the lives of many people, especially poor rural people. We believe that the small claims courts have the potential to make a tangible difference in the way that civil justice is dispensed.

The ideal situation is to have small claims courts servicing every district. Currently, there are 366 magisterial districts in the country. There are 154 small claims courts, incorporating 246 districts. The challenge will therefore be to provide small claims court services for the remaining 119 districts. We are investigating with the SA Law Society the opportunity to expand small claims court services to rural areas through circuit courts.

From April last year the jurisdiction of the small claims courts was increased from 3 000 to 7 000. Statistics for the period 1 April 2004 to 31 March 2005 show that there is an increase in the number of cases registered as a result of increased jurisdiction. We have also embarked on a wide- ranging public awareness campaign to educate members of the public about the services of the small claims courts.

You are aware that we have begun delivering with regard to establishing equality courts and that these are beginning to make their presence felt in the justice system by dealing with issues of unfair discrimination. I recently opened one court in the Eastern Cape, and I would plead that, once more, we should ensure that our people understand the importance of these courts and make use of them, because this is how we will begin to grow a body of jurisprudence that will help us speedily change our country to one that is nonracial and nonsexist. So, I would urge our people to make use of or educate our people about this facility, and make them aware that this facility exists and that they should use this facility.

In conclusion, I would like to thank members of this House for the support and energy that they have provided in our cluster during our first decade of freedom. I hope that this will continue during the second decade of democracy as we continue to translate the provisions of our Constitution into reality.

I also wish to thank my comrade, Kgoshi Mokoena, the Chairperson of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, for sterling work. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, hon members are intimidating me and I need protection. You can see my size. Some of your members are bigger than me, so please help! [Laughter.]

Chairperson, Cabinet colleagues, hon members, MECs and members of provincial legislatures, honoured guests, stakeholders and community representatives, in describing the Freedom Charter, former President Nelson Mandela has the following to say about what he regards as a revolutionary document:

Like other enduring political documents, such as the American Declaration of Independence, the French Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Communist Manifesto, the Freedom Charter is a mixture of practical goals and poetic language. It extols the abolition of racial discrimination and the achievement of equal rights for all. It welcomes all who embrace freedom . .

It is from these sources that the inspiration for our Constitution of 1996 was derived. As much as some of us would want to deny the impact of the Freedom Charter on the lives of ordinary South Africans, the objectives that it promotes makes possible the current radically changed political landscape in our country. It was the Freedom Charter that inspired millions of South Africans to shake off the shackles of the past and provide a vision of the future.

No more are people imprisoned because their skin pigmentation happens to be black. No more are people detained because they support the ANC. No more are people jailed because they could not produce a piece of paper that their jailers forced them to carry at all times. No more are prisons places of oppression where blacks are subjected to the brutality and cruelty of prison officials who know no other way of dealing with offenders except through inhumane treatment.

In line with the Freedom Charter and as emphasised by our Constitution, those guilty of serious crimes will be incarcerated, not to exact vengeance on them but to bring about life-changing attitudes while they pay their debt to society.

The White Paper on Corrections in South Africa shares these objectives of the Freedom Charter and the Constitution of 1996. It envisages a criminal justice system that recognises the humanity of every person, even those who commit crimes against the people of South Africa.

The Department of Correctional Services is committed to bringing about a correctional system in place of a penal system that lends itself to retribution instead of correction. This is a commitment, we believe, that is shared by our colleagues in the criminal justice system, as well as the hon members of this House.

Through the White Paper, we can make a significant contribution to fighting the scourge of crime and criminality, changing the mind-sets and attitudes of those who are still susceptible to positive behavioural changes while incarcerating those who are bent on causing mayhem in our communities.

I am joined in this commitment by all senior managers in my department who last week adopted a declaration of commitment that is aligned with the objectives of our Constitution and, by extension, those objectives of the Freedom Charter that relate to conditions of human dignity for all.

The declaration of commitment from my senior managers includes a commitment: Firstly, to transform prisons into ethical and secure centres with a correcting influence; secondly, to transform Correctional Services into a rehabilitation institution able to afford offenders an opportunity for beginning a new life, free of crime and with personal growth and development; thirdly, to empower our staff members to take their place as cadres of the Public Service; and, fourthly, to uphold and promote the values and principles of our Constitution.

It is against this declaration of commitment that the people of our country should measure Correctional Services. Of course, we want to deliver a world- class service to our people, and this will remain our ideal. We are however, painstakingly aware, that in order to deliver on this ideal, there are certain fundamentals that must be in place. While we can take charge of some of those fundamentals, some of them are outside our sphere of control such as access to greater resources that could constrain us in reaching our objectives in the shortest possible time.

As a starting point, the vehicle to achieving some of these objectives is through the implementation of the White Paper. In this regard we have identified 36 correctional centres throughout the country that would pilot the implementation of the White Paper, starting in this financial year. To be known as centres of excellence, the 36 centres, with six in the Western Cape, two in the Northern Cape, four in the Free State, five in Gauteng, six in KwaZulu-Natal, two each in Mpumalanga, North West and Limpopo and seven in the Eastern Cape, will be the benchmark of service delivery in the correctional system based on the roll-out of the White Paper.

Central to this would be correcting offending behaviour and the implementation of development programmes with the aim of rehabilitating offenders. Critical to the success of this would be ensuring that communities, either through individuals, families or organisations, recognize and adopt corrections as a societal responsibility.

Let me cite an example of how communities could play a major role in corrections. Thousands of our youth and school-going children, especially in the Western Cape, are caught up in using the habit-forming drug, commonly known as tik. It is causing devastation in our communities, with teachers having to deal with scores of cases on a daily basis. There are even cases where mothers and fathers are sharing tik with their children. The pushers and dealers are in our communities, wreaking havoc. Children are resorting to theft and crime in order to satisfy their craving. Many of them are being criminally charged and will end up in prison when they should not be there.

I believe no child should be imprisoned for using tik. They should rather be in programmes in our communities, helping them to break this cruel habit. I have no place for such children in prison but I certainly have place, Minister of Safety and Security, for those who perpetrate these deeds against our youth - the high-flyers we are talking about. No prison will be too overcrowded to break the back of those who deal in the misery of our young people through dealing and selling drugs, such as tik, to our children.

Besides the challenge of overcrowding, another major challenge facing the Department of Correctional Services, if we want to succeed with the rehabilitation of offenders, is to tackle head-on the scourge of prison gangs and related violence. The phenomenon of prison gangs is as old as prison itself and as long as we have inmates, these gangs will remain and operate. But this does not mean that we should not be addressing the challenges presented by prison gangs.

While prison gangs exist throughout the country, they are especially strong in the Western Cape and in Gauteng. And their existence is not unrelated to street gangs that operate within our communities. Again, our young people are most susceptible to the influences of these gangs, and it is not uncommon to find primary schoolchildren being caught up and involved in the gang network.

The Department of Correctional Services is currently engaged in a process with departments in the criminal justice system and other stakeholders to tackle the issue of prison gangs and related violence, but this cannot be done without the active involvement of our communities who bear the brunt of these gangs and their activities.

We will be embarking on initiatives this year to better prepare our members and the public in dealing with this problem. We are also moving some of these prison gang leaders from where they are operating, particularly in big prisons like Pollsmoor, St Albans and in other prisons outside the Western Cape. We are moving them to our maximum-security prison in Kokstad.

Earlier this year a book called The Number by Johnny Steinberg was published dealing with the prison gang phenomenon. I expressed my appreciation to the author for his work in that regard. However, I differ strongly with him on the view that consensual sex between inmates should be allowed in prisons.

Our core business in Correctional Services is to correct offending behaviour. As much as some of us might want to deny it, the dividing line between consensual sex and coercive sex in a prison environment is so blurred that it’s nonexistent. In line with our human rights approach in Correctional Services, we will continue providing for the basic needs of inmates, but when you are incarcerated for crimes against society, you also forfeit certain rights that exist in an open society.

As I stated earlier, overcrowding remains one of the biggest challenges facing this department. The judiciary will be deliberating on this issue with other stakeholders in September. Hon Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development, your wonderful people have come up with an idea that in September we should have a strategy to better manage overcrowding in our prisons. Of course, the sustainable solution is to lower the number of offenders committing crime, but that is a responsibility to be shared by all of us.

Amongst the measures being used to deal with overcrowding are, one, managing the levels of awaiting-trial detainees through the IJS case management task team and the intersectoral committee on child justice. The success of this depends to a great extent on the levels of co-operation that exist at local levels where IJS clusters have been set up.

In many areas there has been a willingness on the part of magistrates and prosecutors to address this, and in those areas the processing time of dealing with awaiting-trial detainees has improved significantly. There is also a role to play in this regard for MECs that are responsible for safety and security, hon Ramatlakane.

The scope of community police forums should be expanded to include other Integrated Justice System stakeholders, such as Correctional Services, where such stakeholders are not involved in police forums. Hon members will be aware that the placement of awaiting-trial detainees within the criminal justice system is still not totally finalised.

It’s my view - and I have spoken to both my colleagues from Safety and Security and Justice and Constitutional Development - that their placement should not be within Correctional Services, but if it is within Correctional Services, some protocols between the relevant JCPS departments are necessary in order for this matter to be dealt with effectively.

So, I am really hoping within the next few months that between my two colleagues and me we will have this protocol in place. I don’t want to fight with them. You see, they are also bigger than me! [Laughter.] So, I try to keep away from fighting with anybody, lest I end up in the very same correctional centres I am trying to look after.

The second measure is managing the levels of sentenced inmates through improving the effective and appropriate use of conversion of sentences to community correctional supervision, release on parole and transfers between correctional centres. Another measure is through the departmental capital works programme, upgrading existing facilities and building new correctional centres that are both cost-effective and rehabilitation oriented. You can call them prisons whilst you are still getting used to the language. Every time I say correctional centres, you can just think “prison”, and that I am only saying “prison”.

Hon members should be aware that new correctional centres are being built at Leeuwkop, Klerksdorp, Kimberley and Nigel, with others due to be built in the next financial year in KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, the Western Cape and the Eastern Cape. So, there will be four for this year and four for next year.

Other measures, are: encouraging an approach to appropriate sentencing that is focused on facilitating rehabilitation; improving the correction and development programmes within the department to ensure enhanced facilitation of rehabilitation; encouraging the improvement of the first and second levels of correction in the family and social institutions respectively; and encouraging community involvement in social reintegration.

The total inmate population as we speak now is 187 000 prisoners or inmates, while our capacity to hold them is only 113 825. That is my capacity - 113 000 only, but I am holding 187 000. Those awaiting- trial prisoners account for 52 000 of the number I have given you, with 135 000 sentenced offenders. This means that about four out of every 1 000 South Africans are incarcerated at any given time. This should give hon members a fair idea of the enormity of the challenge of overcrowding. It is enormous. It is scary. It is very scary, and the biggest bulk is the awaiting-trial detainees.

You might also be aware that the department implemented the inmate tracking system as a pilot project at the Durban Westville Medium A Correctional Centre. This pilot project was also extended to the Johannesburg Medium A Correctional Centre. The main functions of this project are to accurately identify awaiting-trial detainees, to decrease the time spent in processing these awaiting-trial detainees for court appearances and visits, and to monitor the movement of these awaiting-trial detainees through a personal tracking-device system.

The pilot project has assisted in identifying weaknesses in the system, especially with regard to the tracking device that is attached to the wrists of the ATDs. I’m sure some of you saw it. We have a device that we put around their wrists, so that when they move around the prison we know who is who. And, when they are called for visits to courts, we know exactly that we have the right person.

This includes some inmates attempting to destroy the wrist tag. Such culprits - and they are culprits when they destroy it, because we are trying to assist them in the process - must know that action will be taken against them for destroying state property. However, the tracking system has greatly benefited identifying ATDs on a daily basis through the use of the biometric fingerprint reader and the electronic facial photograph facility.

The pilot project at Johannesburg has yielded positive results thus far, but consideration will only be given to extending its use after the completion of an intensive evaluation of the current pilot projects. So, we are still dealing with that at Johannesburg International Airport now - seeing how it works. If it works to the extent that we are happy, we will then move it very quickly.

Our budget for this financial year as Correctional Services is R9,234 billion, with a projected establishment of 36 000 staff members, and operational costs for an average offender population of 192 000 and 76 000 supervision cases and parolees. Compensation of employees is projected at 64% of the Vote.

Expenditure on security is expected to increase rapidly, reaching R4,2 billion by 2007-08. Much of this is to cater for increased staff numbers as a result of the introduction of the seven-day working week. The department is in the process of phasing out the costly overtime system for essential weekend services, thus creating greater work opportunities in line with government’s job creation strategies.

On 1 April the department started introducing the seven-day week, with Saturdays as a normal working day. Members will continue receiving double pay for working on Sundays. Already, we have 1 000 new recruits undergoing training. They are actually out of college now – since last week. We have sent them to the different correctional centres. We have two colleges - one in Kroonstad and another one in Zonderwater. They will be deployed now to correctional centres as they have completed their training. At the same time I want to point out that I remain committed to seeking improvements in the conditions of service of my staff members.

While escapes from correctional centres were limited to 171 last year, many security breaches and escapes are becoming increasingly violent. The brutal attacks on two nurses at the Emthonjeni Youth Centre in Baviaanspoort in March cannot be allowed to go unpunished. I cannot allow our members to be easy targets for criminals. These criminals, some of whom are found within our ranks and who aid and abet escapes, must know that we will use whatever means necessary to track them down.

Area commissioners have been tasked to develop strategies for both enhanced security in centres and corruption prevention, based on an assertive and tight management approach. Corrupt officials who believe they are insulated against exposure will be treated similarly to those who they assist in perpetrating criminal deeds. We will find them, even if it means using unconventional methods to nail them. I have no qualms about putting such corrupt members amongst the very offenders that they are supposed to safeguard society against. Kgoshi, we do arrest them and put them inside, as well.

Our partnership with the Special Investigating Unit in uncovering fraud and corruption in the department has resulted in 175 disciplinary cases, 132 criminal cases against members and 25 criminal referrals of doctors. The crime intelligence of the SAPS also plays a vital role in dealing with fraud and corruption.

We are also building our own intelligence capacity to deal with incidents of corruption, both amongst members and offenders. Corrupt members are, however, in the minority – a very, very small minority. I am confident that the vast majority of correctional officials are committed and dedicated to their responsibilities.

I will continue to press for better service conditions for those members. Last year I stated that I would prioritise this. I am pleased to report that the department will soon be engaging the services of private partners to develop a business case in order to take this work forward.

On Freedom Day I stated that an announcement would be made on the remission of sentences for inmates, parolees and probationers. I will be making the details thereof public fairly soon, but I would like to sound both a word of caution and warning in this regard. Not for one moment should we mistake this for a sign of government being soft on crime. On the contrary, the justice system agencies, including Correctional Services, will not hesitate to slam anyone who thinks that they are above the law back into prison.

While we are reaching out the hand of humanity with the firm understanding that those who are at risk to society will remain incarcerated - I can assure society, the public, that we will not release people who are a risk to society; we will not be that irresponsible - those who are to gain from the remission of sentences must take this one opportunity that they have to change their lives for the better.

Inmates are being given a second chance by this government. They must make use of it by becoming productive citizens and not fall back into crime. I am under no illusion about the propensity for people to fall back into crime, but I would like to appeal to the communities and families out there to reach out to those who are due to return to their communities.

I also wish to appeal to business - small businesses and big businesses - to give the released offenders a chance to seek gainful employment. They have made mistakes that they have acknowledged. They have also hurt victims and families of victims, many of whom who still carry the pain and the scars of the crimes they committed against them. I want to make an appeal: Let’s all join hands in a common attempt to show them the error of their ways and direct them onto a path of changed lives and attitudes.

The department will also be upgrading health care facilities in correctional centres, and I am hoping we will appoint medical practitioners, pharmacists and nursing personnel. Additional social workers, psychologists and spiritual care workers will also be appointed.

As I finish, I just want to talk very quickly about what we have done internationally and on the continent. We will shortly be endorsing the UN Charter of Fundamental Rights of Prisoners. We will also champion the call for African countries to comply with prison-related charters emanating from the continent.

Our participation in binational commissions and joint commissions of co- operation has resulted in us hosting several delegations from various countries, including Rwanda, Angola, Lesotho, Botswana, Malawi, Zimbabwe, Swaziland, the Czech Republic and Sudan, as well as the Commission on Human and People’s Rights under the African Union.

There is a spirit of commitment prevalent in the department, to an extent which I did not experience when I addressed you the last time. Our National Council for Correctional Services, led by Judge Desai, and the Office of the Inspecting Judge, under Judge Hannes Fagan, have contributed significantly to turning around perceptions about the department. There is a greater willingness amongst the public to discuss correctional matters, and we remain determined to project a positive image of Correctional Services through our actions.

Much of this has to do with the support that we are receiving including that of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, led by Kgoshi Mokoena. I want to thank the members of that committee, as well as the members of the portfolio committee, who continually go out and visit all these correctional centres and assist us in understanding what we should be doing in each centre.

I want to thank the members for the faith and trust that they display. I also wish to express my gratitude to all stakeholders, including labour unions, NGOs, CBOs, spiritual-based organisations and service providers, for partnering with us on this journey. Our labour unions have confirmed their commitment to co-operating with regard to our respective roles.

Correctional Services is accepted and acknowledged now as an essential service by everybody who works around Correctional Services. We have agreed on mechanisms to deal with challenges - no more toyi-toying on the streets and no more illegal industrial action. We have now come to our senses, all of us, mindful of the circumstances around being an essential service department.

To Commissioner Linda Mti and my staff members throughout the country, including those at head office who see me wander through the offices sometimes as a wandering spirit, and in our regions, you are out of the starting blocks now, all of you guys and “guyesses”, in your efforts to build a correctional system that truly belongs to all South Africans.

Let’s not relax our foot on the pedal. I have trust and confidence in the managers in all our centres, as well as in our members who are at the coalface of delivery, facing risks and security problems all the time. I will continue being available to listen to you and we will continue engaging you, whether it is in your offices or in correctional centres all over the country.

Many of our members and even prison inmates – offenders - have discovered a simple way to reach the Minister directly, all of them. They simply call me on my cellphone. I make it so easy. They call on the cellphone, and say, “I am offender so-and-so. I am in Middledrift Prison, Minister”. I always try to get a chance to sit down first before I listen and ask what the problem is. They tell me the problem; I try to resolve it, or I tell the commissioner very quickly, “Your prisoners are phoning me left, right and centre”.

If we want to succeed in delivering quality services in Correctional Services, we must open the doors of communication. I invite all my members

• members of the select committee and members of the portfolio committee - to be in touch with us all the time if they believe that they can contribute towards making a positive difference within Correctional Services. I thank you. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Hon members, I just want to thank all four Ministers who participated in this debate in order to deliver their Budget Votes. I must congratulate you on being the only cluster that could come together like this. It was very wonderful. It’s very important to us. [Applause.] How you make it, I don’t know, but as the NCOP we appreciate it.

The Minister of Safety and Security, as indicated, had to cancel a very important event to respect parliamentary work. How wonderful is that! We aren’t saying that it is not important where you are going, but you have shown this co-operation.

When I was talking to Kgoshi Mokoena the other day, he actually said to me: You are arrested, so the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development must make sure that you are convicted; the Minister of Correctional Services must make sure we are in the prisons and corrected; and the Minister of Defence must make sure that the entire country is being defended from our opponents and that we have peace in the country.

So I want to thank you very much. It’s a pleasure for us, and I am sure all members will realise how these departments talk to each other. That is the information, I think, members of Parliament need. [Applause.]

When we do our constituency work, it’s better to have listened to all this in one go so we can talk to our constituency and have the information at hand. I wish to thank you, Ministers, all of you, for your participation in this debate.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, hon Ministers, Deputy Ministers, MECs, the permanent and the special delegates, though the law is obviously concerned with politics, economics, social life and ethics, it is its function to give them form and order. From this relation of law to the matters that it regulates, three characteristic features develop, which are stability, formalism and security from disorder.

These are the words of Friedman. I am quoting him, because of where we come from. It was therefore relevant, proper, accurate, befitting, correct, right, in order, and to the point when the People’s Congress declared on 26 June 1955 at Kliptown: “There shall be peace and friendship.”

Today the majority of our judicial officers are applying the law equally to all South Africans regardless of the colour of their skin, whether black or white. All these are the fruits of our hard-fought democracy. I think it will only be fair to thank all those judicial officers who are not influenced by the baggage of the past.

Having said that, it is sad, however, to learn, see and read of some of the disturbing incidents of horrible sentencing patterns or trends. There are still those judicial officers who are not ashamed to apply some laws for blacks and others for whites. We definitely do not need this kind of attitude, especially now at this time and age.

It is therefore shocking and surprising to hear some of the people screaming when we say that the judiciary needs to be transformed. Those who live in glasshouses must wear proper attire. I regard this group as those people who are not ashamed to adjust their underwear in public. Hon Minister, please continue, you have our support.

Something must be done about the language policy on the Bench. It does not make any sense when the magistrate, the prosecutor and the accused are all Sotho speaking, but the proceedings are conducted in English. One other worrying factor is the exodus of senior and experienced prosecutors to the Bench and to the private sector. This issue was raised by many of our magistrates during our provincial visits. Let us see if we cannot close the gap or review our retention policy.

There was a time when our police officers were not instruments for providing peace, security and stability in black communities; they were never agents for giving help or assistance. They were regarded as nothing else but agents of torture and brutality. However, the ushering in of the democratic dispensation has changed this paradigm, and resulted in the transformation of the police and other security agencies into providers and defenders of peace and security for all the people of this country.

The committee was told that in many police stations there is a serious shortage of women detectives. I suggest that the department should go all out to attract or even train them. I know the department will do something about it, being headed by such a dynamic Minister. The shortage of senior or ordinary detectives was also raised by many of the station commissioners. Can that also be looked at?

The other issue that was confirmed by the station commissioners and magistrates was that there is no proper co-ordination between investigators and prosecutors. This disjointed function by these two units caused some cases to be withdrawn unnecessarily, or to be thrown out.

There are some people who cannot appreciate the good job done by our men and women in blue. There might be a few of those who are really tarnishing the image of the department. For example, there is this one officer who was arrested yesterday here in the Western Cape for conniving with gangsters. Really, those ones we do not need in our system. Hon Minister, we will support you if you can flush them down the drain.

The question of overcrowding as was raised by the Minister is still a thorn in our flesh. We welcome the announcement made by the Minister on the steps to be taken in reducing overcrowding in our prisons or correctional centres. Shame on all those who are misinterpreting this intention of yours, Mr Minister. But I do not think there will be any sober-minded person who will deliberately try to mislead or confuse the public.

Hon Minister, you have our support. Let me not waste my time and energy on this point, because it will be like shooting at a dead donkey, or people might not notice the difference, because some people, Mr Minister, are saying that you are going to go to a prison and call all inmates to come out. If the cell can only take 100 inmates, you are going to say, “All of you queue”. After they have queued you will count up to a certain number and say, “All of you are now released to avoid overcrowding”. We say that is nonsense. There is no sober-minded person who can do that, but as I said, Mr Minister, what worries the moon when the dog barks?

Those are the kinds of people who think stopping at a red light after midnight is a waste of precious time. Our prisons are no longer places for punishment, but places for correction or rehabilitation. We can only say to you and your department, Mr Minister, that opportunities follow those who walk an extra mile. Well done, Mr Minister.

This is evident from the department’s skills development programme. I can only encourage the department to continue and reskill these inmates, so that when they complete their sentences they become assets to their communities and not liabilities. Your action confirms that history will remember us not by our looks, but by the work we have done.

What we do as a committee is that when we make our oversight visits, we invite the four departments to be part of the team. That is to make sure that whatever we will be seeing in those areas, these officials or the departments will have first-hand information. After the visits I would usually ask them to be part of us under the same roof. In those meetings we are able to identify short-term, medium-term and long-term measures. This system has helped us a lot and these departments are so co-ordinated, and this has avoided the pointing of fingers by all these departments.

We are seeing some improvements now because of this arrangement. It is only fair for us as Parliament to appreciate the role played by our SA National Defence Force in peacekeeping on the continent. They sacrificed and compromised their time with their families in the best interests of this country and the continent. I would not go deeply into these, my detachments, as they, in the name of hon Moseki, will come into it. It is true that the creation of value is in the end of the product of work well done.

Let me thank the directors-general of these departments and their staff for their honest briefings to the committee, especially Commissioner Linda Mti, who is always available whenever the committee wants to see him. I know he is doing this because of you, Mr Minister. Thank you very much [Applause.]

My thanks goes to the committee members for the dedication you have shown once more. This committee is what it is and where it is because of you. This committee does not need the faint-hearted. It is true that to enjoy the top of the mountain, you must first enjoy the foot of the mountain. It is true again that profits are what you have at the end of the project, which you did not have at the beginning of the same.

I am proud of you, my colleagues. We are proud to have such wonderful, magnificent, dynamic, calculated, focused, combat-ready, marvellous, ever- ready Ministers and Deputy Ministers, because you heard what they said in their addresses. On that note, it is true - the people shall govern. I thank you.

Mnr J W LE ROUX: Agb Voorsitter, agb Ministers, agb Adjunkministers, LUR’e en kollegas, ek gaan my inset aan Korrektiewe Dienste wy. Ek bedank baie graag ons topbestuurspan wat uitstekende werk doen. Die visie van die departement om op rehabilitasie te fokus is 100% korrek. Dis verblydend dat ons topbestuurspan hierdie taak met soveel entoesiasme aanpak. Die vraag is egter: Kan ons slaag met die middele tot ons beskikking? Die kort antwoord is ongelukkig nee. Indien die regering wil hê dat die visie van Korrektiewe Dienste moet slaag, sal ons net eenvoudig meer geld moet kry. Wat rehabilitasie betref, het ’n onlangse studie in Engeland getoon dat tussen 60% en 70% van misdadigers binne twee jaar na vrylating weer met die gereg bots. Ons is dus in ’n groot mate besig om dieselfde mense oor en oor te vang. Dit is so dat as daar geen rehabilitasie plaasvind nie ons in der waarheid nog erger misdadigers kweek. Die tronk word dan ’n opleidingsentrum vir misdaad.

Om die rehabilitasiepoging te laat slaag, het ons eerstens spasie nodig. Die tronke is so oorvol dat dit onmoontlik is om onder sulke omstandighede suksesvolle rehabilitasiewerk te doen. Die probleem van oorvol tronke is kompleks en die oplossing is nie so maklik nie. Daar is nie genoeg geld vir die bou van nuwe gevangenisse nie, en die prioriteit van die Tesourie is ook verstaanbaar. Dit is beter om skole te bou as tronke.

Tans word vier tronke gebou, maar hulle sal slegs akkomodasie bied vir ’n addisionele 12 000 aangehoudenes. Ons soek plek, soos die Minister vir ons gewys het, vir ongeveer 70 000 mense, want ’n deel van die huidige tronkbevolking is 50 000 verhoorafwagtendes en gevangenes wat net nie borg kan bekostig nie.

Vroeë vrylating word nou oorweeg. Al word die keuring hoe streng gedoen, bly dit maar problematies. Die hele regstelsel kan nadelig geraak word, want die staat moet sy burgers teen misdadigers beskerm. Die integriteit van ons regstelsel mag nooit in die gedrang kom nie.

Die publiek is reeds moedeloos geteister deur misdaad. Grootskaalse vrylatings sal met reg heftige reaksie ontlok. Ek is baie bly dat die Minister ons in die verband gerusgestel het.

Wat die akkommodasie betref, versoek ek die Minister om vas te stel watter geboue van die staat tans leeg staan. Ek dink ons sal almal verbaas wees om te sien hoeveel inafrastruktuur wel beskikbaar is. In Port Elizabeth se hoofstraat weet ek van twee reuse geboue, dis sewe-verdieping geboue elk, wat maklik omskep kan word in gevangenisse, en in Uitenhage is daar groot spoorwegwerkswinkels wat jare al onbenut is.

Tweedens het ons personeel nodig om die plan te laat slaag. Dit is die Minister se plig om die nodige geld te kry. Dit help nie ons het ’n goeie plan, maar ons het nie die geld om die plan uit te voer nie.

Een van die suksesvolste projekte is opleiding in die landbou. Terwyl produkte gekweek kan word om ons tronke te voorsien, leer gevangenes ook baie vaardighede aan. Talle van ons tronke het landbougrond en water, maar omdat ons nie genoeg personeel het nie, kan die projekte nie uitgebrei word nie.

Die boubedryf bied ook uitstekende geleentheid vir opleiding en infrastruktuurskepping. Weer eens het ons nie die personeel om hierdie geleentheid te benut nie. As ons ernstig is oor rehabilitasie het ons sielkundiges nodig. Tans het ons nie eens genoeg bewaarders nie. Wanneer gevangenes die dag vrygelaat word, het die persoon geen werk nie, en in die meeste gevalle is kontak met sy gesin ook verbreek.

’n Persoon sonder werk, sonder geld en sonder familiesteun sal na alle waarskynlikheid baie gou weer ’n misdaad pleeg. Ons moet innoverend dink aan ’n stelsel van werkverskaffing aan aangehoudenes binne ons tronke. Dan kan hulle die kans kry om teen betaling nuttige werk te verrig, en terselfdertyd vaardighede aan te leer. Wanneer so ’n persoon vrygelaat word, het hy ten minste geld en vaardighede om in die samelewing selfonderhoudend te wees en ’n nuttige bydrae te maak. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr J W LE ROUX: Hon Chairperson, hon Ministers, hon Deputy Ministers, MECs and colleagues, I am going to devote my input to Correctional Services. I would like to thank our top management team which is doing excellent work. The department’ s vision to concentrate on rehabilitation is 100% correct. It is heartening to see our top management team tackling this task with so much enthusiasm. However, the question is: Can we succeed with the resources at our disposal? Unfortunately the short answer is no. If the government wants the vision of Correctional Services to be successful, we simply have to get more money.

As far as rehabilitation is concerned, a recent study in England indicated that between 60% and 70% of criminals again clash with the law within two years after their release. We are therefore, to a great extent arresting the same people over and over again. It is a fact that if no rehabilitation takes place, we actually create worse criminals. Prison then becomes a training centre for criminals.

To make the rehabilitation effort successful, what we need, in the first place, is space. The prisons are so overpopulated that it is impossible to carry out successful rehabilitation work under those circumstances. The problem of overpopulated prisons is complicated and it is not so easy to find a solution. There is not enough money to build new prisons, and the priority of the Treasury is also understandable. It is better to build schools than prisons.

Four prisons are under construction at present, but they will only provide accommodation for an additional 12 000 detainees. As the Minister indicated to us, we are looking for room for approximately 70 000 people, because part of the present prison population is 50 000 awaiting-trial prisoners and prisoners who simply cannot afford bail.

Early releases are now being considered. No matter how strictly selection is done, it simply remains problematic. The whole legal system can be affected adversely, because the state must protect its citizens against criminals. The integrity of our legal system should never be jeopardised.

The public are already despondent because they are plagued by crime. Large- scale releases will only lead to a heated reaction and rightly so. I am very glad that the Minister reassured us in this regard.

As far as accommodation is concerned, I appeal to the Minister to determine which state-owned buildings are currently standing empty. I think all of us will be surprised to see how much infrastructure is, in fact, available. I know of two enormous buildings, each consisting of seven storeys, in the main road of Port Elizabeth which could easily be converted into prisons, and in Uitenhage there are large railway workshops that have been unused for years.

Secondly, we need staff for the plan to be successful. It is the Minister’s duty to get the necessary money. It is of no use to have a good plan, if we do not have the money to execute the plan.

One of the most successful projects is training in agriculture. While produce can be cultivated to provide for our prisons, prisoners also acquire many skills. Many of our prisons have agricultural land and water, but because we do not have enough staff, the projects cannot be expanded.

The building industry also offers an excellent opportunity for training and the creation of infrastructure. Once again we do not have the personnel to make use of this opportunity.If we are serious about rehabilitation, we need psychologists. We do not even have enough warders at present. Once a prisoner is released, he has no job, and in most cases contact with his family is also lost.

A person without a job, without money and without family support will in all probability commit a crime again very soon. We must be innovative when thinking of a new system of job creation for detainees in our prisons. They will then have a chance to do useful work for enumeration, and acquire skills at the same time. When such a person is released, he at least has money and skills to be self-sufficient in society and to make a useful contribution.]

I would like to touch on the question of gangs. It is a fact that gangs are using prisoners and that our wardens cannot solve the problem. Yet, if we don’t at least contain the problem, our very worthwhile rehabilitation efforts will come to nothing.

Unfortunately, there are some of our wardens who are corrupt and work with gangs. Obviously this complicates matters even more and makes the drug problem in our centres very difficult to combat. We need new strategies, and government must support our officials in this regard. We cannot just give in and allow gangs to rule our prisons. As a matter of fact, as the Minister said, they run drug businesses from inside the prison.

Lastly, we have many excellent staff members who carry out this dangerous work and receive very modest salaries. We thank them for their dedication. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr L RAMATLAKANE (Western Cape): Chairperson, Ministers, Deputy Ministers, colleagues, hon members. . .

. . .okoko iNtshona Koloni yaphathwa ngumbutho wesizwe ukususela ngo-2001, ubundlobongela buya busihla mihla le. [… ever since the ANC-led government has been leading the Western Cape since 2001, we have seen a decrease in the crime rate on a daily basis.]

However, last weekend we saw an outbreak of a new phenomenon of crime, with our people in townships such as Khayelitsha and Gugulethu embarking on several forms of protest action. We have seen streets being rendered impossible to use because of burning tyres and other objects thrown in the middle of the road. This action does not belong in a democratic society, where it has been made possible for our people to lodge their grievances legitimately.

Whilst people’s grievances may be legitimate regarding access to land and housing, we cannot sympathise with actions that are illegitimate. Any action that negatively affects the law-abiding citizens cannot be condoned. If such action continues, the SA Police Service and the municipal police know what to do.

Again, our province was shocked at the killing of children and family members, with perpetrators turning the weapons on themselves. These incidents tell us that our society is still suffering from some kind of sickness, and that is the reason we need to intensify the moral regeneration campaign.

Family killings have become one of the most challenging of crimes, and our communities and families must rally against it. For the police it remains a big challenge to prevent a crime that is committed behind closed doors.

While we are aware that no police, intelligence or any other enforcement agent would be able to detect that a man is planning to massacre his family and then kill himself, this is a crime we cannot condone. We must condemn it at all times.

I therefore hope that the justice system will deal with these matters and mete out justice against the culprits in a way that will satisfy the public of the Western Cape and the relatives of the victims of such crime.

The other day, last week, I picked up a newspaper and, paging through it, this headline caught my attention, and I quote: “I’m sorry, my wife, that I put you through hell with my tik addiction.” Today the Cape Times’ front- page headline reads: “My tik addict son has put us through hell.”

This phrase indicates the degree to which the drug abuse and drug-addiction problems have escalated. In fact, the latter newspaper’s headline carries photographs of United States citizens whose grim faces tell the story of how tik has destroyed them.

It is clear that we are now dealing with a challenging phenomenon. There is brokenness in our families and in our society, and our children are being lured to drugs, especially tik. On the other hand, drug lords see the children as a new market for drugs.

Our future generation, that is the children, needs our collective protection. Children run away from their parents because they’ve been lured to drugs. Gangsters are now waging bloody battles amongst themselves over the drug market or turf.

In terms of popularity, this tik drug has now clearly overtaken all other drugs in the market, and everyone, from children as young as nine years of age to grown-up women, is using it. We are told that people are saying that the tik is affordable.

However, Minister Nqakula, I’m happy to inform you that members of the SA Police Service in the Western Cape have made inroads in cutting down the supply line of this drug. The SA Police Service launched a massive operation a few weeks ago, particularly in Manenberg, during which thousands of illegal substances, ranging from tik to dagga and mandrax, were seized. Furthermore, gang leaders were arrested and the houses that they had turned into drug factories were demolished.

The Deputy President asked, when he visited Bonteheuwel recently, and I quote: “What is being done when houses are used as outlets for drugs?” We indicated to him that our integrated law-enforcement agencies would continue to use the Prevention of Organised Crime Act against those who use houses as drug outlets.

This brings me to a matter that needs the attention of the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development. On more than one occasion a Cape Town judge has thrown out a case involving serious crime, such as murder. Thereafter the judge sensationally lambasted the police for poor investigation.

We have called for a report on one of these cases. On available evidence it appears that the attack on the police was unfair and unwarranted. We are investigating the matter further. If our initial view is confirmed, we intend to pursue this matter with the national Minister. If necessary, the Judicial Services Commission would have to take up the matter.

Unfair attacks on the police, especially from the judiciary, undermine the maintenance of law and order in our democracy. It is my belief that through the integrated JCPS strategy we will be able to tackle crime of all forms and bring peace of mind to the people on the streets of Manenberg, Hanover Park and Khayelitsha.

The department of community service has made money available for further training of prosecutors and the police in investigation, to equip them so that they can have water-tight cases.

The priority court is a critical priority in the Western Cape. We say so because it is here that drug trafficking and gangsterism are rife. Long delays in cases create problems, with witnesses being taken out by gangsters, which results in those criminals going free.

We have committed almost R1 million to assist in this regard. We are of the view that by calling on us to integrate our resources and work together, President Thabo Mbeki actually meant that all role-players, that is Correctional Services, the police, Intelligence, the prosecuting authority and Defence should all join hands and face the enemy, that is crime, united. In the Western Cape the agencies have been working together as a cluster for the past three years. Co-operation in this regard has yielded results, such as the arrest of high-flyers and drug lords, and crime stabilising in the Western Cape.

As an integrated cluster we’ve had a briefing from Correctional Services, informing us of overcrowding at Pollsmoor, which is a major challenge that requires an integrated approach at all levels of government. The Minister also repeated this call.

The culture of gangsterism in our prisons is a big challenge. The criminal activities that are planned from our prisons remain a matter of concern. Of course, as the Minister indicated, this matter is receiving attention.

It could be addressed by transferring gang leaders to other prisons. However, I must say that the transfer of gang leaders to other prisons should also include the transfer of some officials, who somehow have a long relationship with drug lords, which in fact helps the drug lords to continue operating from prison. We have indicated that it is about time that we considered barring the use of cellphones at Pollsmoor Prison, particularly taking into consideration the said relationship.

Our resolve in the Western Cape is to reduce crime on all fronts, through using the people-orientated, crime-fighting strategy that continues to gain momentum within our communities.

Our commitment to creating a safer home for all in the Western Cape is, of course, given impetus by the civil society joining hands with the government’s law-enforcement agencies in the fight against crime. Today we want to express our deepest sense . . . [Time expired.][Applause.]

Mr F ADAMS: Chairperson, Ministers, Deputy Ministers, MECs, special delegates and colleagues, the family is regarded as the nucleus of a community and a potentially powerful agent for political, economic, cultural and social change. Secondly, it is a great, potent vehicle for members to develop to their full potential. That also relates to the development of a set of values and morals. The family also creates an enabling environment for members to cope with political, economic, cultural and social changes.

We must bear in mind that many families are under pressure to cope with the negative impact of poverty, HIV/Aids, unemployment, crime, abuse of alcohol, drugs and other social ills. This impacts negatively on children and on other vulnerable members within such families.

We need to look after our most important resources: our police officers, justice officials, soldiers and Correctional Services officials, because these human beings have got families like us. We must ensure that the strong foundation, which was laid 50 years ago in Kliptown for us, our children, our families and generations to come, is of the order that families can flourish and do what they truly ought to do, such as to be loving, warm, caring, supportive and tolerant regarding gender equality and democratic values.

The family is the smallest unit of society. It is the building block with which peace, stability and democracy may be built in our nation. Positive attitudes of respect for authority, responsibility . . . and I want to repeat this so that the DA can listen . . . positive attitudes of respect for authority, responsibility, the power of decision-making and the value of self are formed within the family.

I would like to thank the chairperson of our committee, the hon Kgoshi Mokoena, for the leadership displayed. Forward in the struggle against crime! The NNP supports the Budget Vote. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr H NKETU (Free State): Chairperson, hon members present today in the House, Deputy Ministers, members of the NCOP, special delegates, ladies and gentlemen, as I was growing up I had this belief that former Ministers and members of Parliament from the apartheid regime were supernatural beings. This is because of the way they were profiled in the newspapers and on the radio, and I want to indicate that I was greatly intimidated by the presence of so many Ministers and Deputy Ministers in the House today.

Twenty-seven April 1994 marked the turning point in South African history and will always remain indelible in the hearts and minds of many residents, the continent and the world at large. Looking back 10 years later, the memory of that day remains vivid. I recall those long queues of people waiting patiently, under the scorching autumn sun, to cast their votes for a better life. I can still see the apparent jubilation on their faces when they came out of the voting booths, saying: “I saw his face and I put my vote next to him.”

Also notable was the appreciation on some faces, especially in areas that were engulfed in political violence like KwaZulu-Natal. Tears of joy flowed from the eyes of those who were evidently moved by this occasion. South Africa went through a lot of pain to achieve this independence. The then rulers, although they tried their best to make South Africa their heaven, didn’t enjoy the full benefit of their reign, as they were isolated from the rest of the world. Those years are still fresh in our memories. We are in the best position to compare where we come from and where we are now.

We may be 10 years into democracy, but the strides that we have made need to be commended. Today we enjoy a Constitution that guarantees the rights of all South Africans. It protects the right of all people to life and human dignity, freedom and security.

As a country we face the continuing and important challenge to work for the transformation of the SA Police Service, SAPS. Much work has already been done to address the race and gender imbalances within the institution. Nevertheless, more progress has to be achieved in this regard, like eradicating corruption in the SAPS; policing the 2010 Soccer World Cup; improving the utilisation of technology in policing; eradicating attacks on and killings of police officials; and reducing escapes from police custody.

There are those members of the SAPS who are still engaged in criminal activities, such as collaborating with crime syndicates and who ensure every time that such syndicates escape from police traps and operations. They perform and do weak investigations, which at the end of the day lead to the release of criminals. As we all know by now, South Africa came tops in its bid to host the Soccer World Cup in 2010. This has started a revolution in selling the entire continent to the global market. More than 2,5 million tickets for the World Cup matches will be sold and 46 matches will be played in all nine provinces. That means getting fans into the country, moving them between urban centres to follow their teams, giving them places to stay, to eat, to celebrate and to revive their spirits; providing them with a wide range of shopping opportunities and sights to see between the matches, and keeping them safe for as long as they are here.

Technology is making the business of crime fighting more effective than ever, and the SA Police Service must take an interest in and make more use of technology. Monitoring via central business district videos, the Internet and biometrics are some of the technologies making the business of crime fighting more effective than ever.

The crime-fighting and security possibilities presented by the IT industry are wide-ranging. Devices such as cameras and monitors are becoming increasingly flexible and sensitive with satellite technology making the transmission of high-quality video images to a remote site faster and easier.

Biometrics is making access control more effective and transformation more secure and the spread of Internet advances in data management have taken the sharing of information and the tracking down of criminals light years ahead.

The tracking and analysing of types of incidents of crime, using modern database management systems, enables immediate identification and proactive crime fighting on a scale never seen before. By performing forensic data analysis, syndicate operations within the financial institutions have been identified, and so large-scale fraud has been prevented. Without technology this could not have been possible.

Attacks on and the murdering of police officials remain a problem, and in order to eradicate it we have the task and responsibility to mobilise all sections of the community to join in popularising the work the police do on their behalf. We need to pay particular attention to the campaign with members of the community. The reality can no longer be avoided that some within the SAPS do not see themselves as being part of the masses, accountable to them and inspired by their hopes, dreams and value systems.

Structures such as the community policing forums need to mobilise the communities in the fight against crime and to work and strengthen partnerships between the communities and law-enforcement agencies.

In conclusion, allow me to raise the following points, which were observed during our oversight visits, namely that the National Crime Prevention Strategy and the White Paper on Safety and Security both emphasised that the location of social crime, prevention and environmental design is at the local governmental level; that the critical role of community participation in crime prevention and community safety through the ward committees lacks practical expression in municipalities; and that the community policing forums have been adopted by our democratic government as a catalyst to advance the transformation of the SA Police Service.

However, the representation of municipalities in the CPFs is lacking; the alignment of the police boundaries within the functional municipal boundaries is essential, particularly for the promotion of effective and efficient strategic planning and co-ordination; the redressing of past imbalances with respect to infrastructure development at police stations is a cause for concern and the lack of equitable distribution of resources, both human and physical, in various police stations hinders police service delivery in most parts of the Free State. Of serious concern is the shortage of vehicles and sometimes drivers at station level.

Paramount to transformation is the creation of a nonracial workplace, and racism is still rearing its ugly head in daily contact between white and black police officers in the Free State. The poor conviction rate in terms of delivery of detective services is alarmingly unacceptable. The infusion of respect for human rights into existing police practices needs to be inculcated and, lastly, liquor abuse remains one of the main contributors to crime in the Free State. This is partly caused by a lack of co- ordination with respect to the implementation of the new Liquor Act and the fact that the province has not yet drafted the provincial liquor Act. The mushrooming of liquor outlets in the townships and the city centres next to taxi ranks is of great concern. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mnu Z C NTULI: Mhlonishwa Sihlalo, oNgqongqoshe bakazwelonke, amaPhini oNgqongqoshe bakazwelonke, oNgqongqoshe bezifundazwe, abahlonishwa nabahlonishwakazi nabafowethu nodadewethu, namhlanje usuku olubaluleke kakhulu kimi njengoba ngimi lapha phambi kwamalungu ahloniphekile ngikhuluma ngesabiwomali soMnyango wezokuPhepha okwabe kunguMnyango owawungabandakanyi noma ubani ngesikhathi sobandlululo. Lokhu kungukufezeka kwephupho labantu baseNingizimu Afrika njengoba basho kuSomqulu weNkululeko bathi koba khona ukuphepha nemfudumalo, nokuthi wonke umuntu uyovikeleka.

Thina njengoKhongolose umdoni omagatshagatsha ozithelo zawo zingakhethe mvuni ngabe ngokwebala, ngobulili, ngenkolo nangamvelaphi yobuzwe, kepha wonke umuntu ophila ngaphansi komthunzi welanga eNingizimu Afrika, sithi siyasesekela lesi sabiwomali.

Siwubonile lo Mnyango uphuma imikhankaso eminingi emizamweni yokuletha ukuthula emphakathini wakithi. Sinenkolelo yokuthi lo Mnyango udinga imali ethe xaxa ngenxa yobuningi bezinhlelo eseziqaliwe ngokunjalo nezinselele zemihla yonke ezisuke zingalindelekanga.

Sihlalo, ngivumele ngichaze ezinye zezinhlelo esizibonile. Ngizoqala ngalolu hlelo lwenguquko, i-transformation. Kumele singalibali ukuthi i- SAPS inohlelo lwe-affirmative action nesu lokuluqalisa lolu hlelo ukwenza ngcono imizamo yokunikeza amathuba yonke imikhakha. Kuyinto elula ukunikeza amathuba ngokulingana ngobuhlanga kunobulili ngenxa yesimo somsebenzi wesiphoyisa ngoba uthathwa njengomsebenzi wabesilisa emazweni omhlaba naseNingizimu Afrika.

Ezikhundleni eziphezulu zokuphatha bangama-30 sebebonke, kunabesilisa abangama-25 phakathi kwabo kanti abayisishiyagalolunye ngabamhlophe. Kunabesifazane abayisihlanu phakathi kwabo ababili ngabamhlophe. Ezikhundleni zokuphatha ezithe thuthu bangama-527 bebonke, kunabesilisa abangama-352 phakathi kwabo abayi-195 ngabamhlophe, kube nabeseifazane abangama-75 phakathi kwabo abangama-36 ngabamhlophe.

Le nkinga yobulili obungamelelekile ngokulinganayo yinkinga eqhubekayo esifundazweni. Siyathanda ukubona imbokodo iphatha izikhundla eziphezulu kwazise ukuthi inkonyane izobe ingethuki isisinga ngokubona umame ephethe isikhundla. Kumele senze izinguquko ukuhlonipha amaqhawekazi anjengoQabane uKate Molale owakhethwa ngo-1954 waba ngunobhala wegatsha le-ANC eSophiatown. Waba ngomunye wababedweba uSomqulu weNkululeko ngo-1955. Waba ngomunye wethimba elaya eCuba liholwa uQabane u-Oliver Tambo ngo-1978 kanti kwakunguye owayengomunye wabagqugquzeli besiteleka samabhasi sika-1957.

Kodwa-ke Ngqongqoshe kufanele njalo singakukhohlwa lokhu uma sikhuluma nge- transformation, singabheki kuphela okobulili sibuye sibheke ukucabangela ukuthi sizenza kanjani izinto ngesikhathi samanje. Sengathi kuseyinkingana Ngqongqoshe lokhu futhi ungakubona uma uvakasha, mhlawumbe, kwaZulu-Natali lapho ngiqhamuka khona. Ngake ngaya esiteshini laphaya eMlazi ngangishayiswe yitekisi. Ngathi uma ngingena laphaya ngafica amaphoyisa ehlezi ekhawunteni. Lasukuma elinye leza kimina lathi, “Ngingakusiza yini?” Ngasho ukuthi ngishayiswe yitekisi. Labuza ukuthi kuphi ngase ngichaza ukuthi phakathi kwasegaraji nasesikoleni, ngasho isikole ngegama. Lathi iphoyisa: “Leyo ndawo leyo, kodwa awusho: awukho umuzi? Ithini inombolo yomuzi lapho?” Ngathi mina, “Hhayi-bo bekusemgwaqweni laphaya. Angizange ngibe nesikhathi sokuyobheka umuzi mina.” Lathi, ``O, kanti awufuni ukusizwa wena’’ lavele lasuka layohlala phansi. Ngaze ngabheka “ukapteni walo ngathi, Kapteni, kwenzeka kanjani la?” Wasukuma ukapteni wathi, “Hhayi umthetho wakhe nje”. Ngathi, “Eyi, kusho ukuthi kusekukhulu okufanele sikwenze.”

Sithi-ke Ngqongqoshe, amaphoyisa awabonakale, angacashi, aziveze ukuthi akhona ukuze abantu besabe; isigebengu sesabe ukwenza izinto ngoba siwabona amaphoyisa ukuthi hhayi akhona, kungabi yileya nhlobo endala ecashayo, umuntu one bese iyambopha.

Enye inkinga ilapha kumaphoyisa ezomgwaqo owathola ecashile; nekhamera bayifihla ezihlahleni ubone ukuthi lapha kucushwe umuntu, kanti kufanele bakhombise ukuthi bakhona yikhona umuntu ezokwehlisa ijubane. Awuzame lapho Ngqongqoshe. [Uhleko.]

Okunye-ke Ngqongqoshe okusafanele ukubheke ikakhulu kwaZulu-Natali ukuthi uma kunezimbizo, kunabantu abenqabayo ukuseshwa noma banqabe ukungaziphathi lezi zikhali uma kuthiwa abangaziphathi. Mhlawumbe kufanele uqinise isandla ngoba akukuhle lokhu esakuzwa ukuthi bathi ngeke bazibuyise izibhamu, bekutshela nje uzwa. Ngiyethemba ukuthi uzoke uthi ukuqinisa isandla lapho.

Ngifuna ukuthinta lapha ekuxhumaneni kwabaseshi kanye nabashushisi. Sithi sengathi le nto yokuhlukaniswa kweminyango ngamaqembu asebenzisanayo ingenzeka nalaphaya phansi lapho esihlala khona, emawadini kumbe eziteshini zamaphoyisa nasezinkantolo nakwezamajele. Kungakuhle bahlangane bakwazi ukuyixoxa ukuthi uma umuntu eboshwe kanjena udlulela la, kwenzeke kanjani, nanokuthi phakathi komshushisi nomseshi akungabi sengathi kuyaliwa, kuthi uma umseshi eletha icala bese umshushisi elijikijela laphaya athi ukucutshungulwa kwalo kusezingeni eliphansi. Yini angambizi lowo mseshi athi, “Hhayi lungisa lapha nalaphaya ukuze icala liqhubeke?” Yini kube sengathi kuyaliwa, umuntu bese entshinga laphaya athi: hhayi akulungile? Ngidlule Ngqongqoshe ngize la kuma-community policing forum, ama-CPF. [Kwaphela isikhathi.] (Translation of isiZulu speech follows.)

[Mr Z C NTULI: Hon Chairperson, Ministers, Deputy Ministers, MECs, dignitaries, brothers and sisters, today is a special day for me as I stand here in front of hon members taking part in the Budget Vote of the Department of Safety and Security, which was the department of the selected few during the time of apartheid. This is the dream come true for the people of South Africa as stipulated in the Freedom Charter that there will be security and comfort and that every person shall be safe.

We, as the African National Congress, the umdoni, waterberry, tree with many branches whose fruits are eaten by every person regardless of colour, gender, religion or ethnic grouping, but every person living on South African soil, say that we support this Budget Vote.

We have seen the efforts of this department in the many campaigns of bringing peace and stability to our communities. We therefore believe that this department needs at least more money to fund its many programmes which are already underway and also to deal with the day-to-day challenges which occur unexpectedly.

Chairperson, allow me to explain about the other programmes that we have seen. I will start with the programme of transformation. We should not forget that the SAPS have a programme of affirmative action and the plan of starting this programme is to make sure that the efforts of giving every sphere a chance are made better. It is easy to grant equal opportunities based on race as opposed to gender because police work is globally regarded as men’s work, including in South Africa.

Directorate positions, of which there are 30 in all, comprises 25 males of whom eight are white. There are five women and amongst them two are white. The next level has 527 positions in all, of which males fill 352. Of those 195 are filled by whites, and there are 75 women, 36 of which are whites.

This problem of gender inequality is a continuous problem in the province. We would like to see women in directorate positions, and they can do it. We need to make these changes to honour heroines like Comrade Kate Molale who was elected in 1954 to be the General-Secretary of the African National Congress in Sophiatown. She was one of those who wrote the Freedom Charter in 1955. She was part of the delegation that went to Cuba led by Comrade Oliver Tambo in 1978 and she was one of the organisers of the bus strike in 1957.

We should however, Minister, not forget that when we are talking about transformation we are not only looking at the gender issue, but also at the way we do things nowadays. There, however, seem to be some problems in this area, Minister. If you were to visit KwaZulu-Natal, where I come from, you will see this. At one stage I went to uMlazi Police Station after I had been knocked over by a taxi, and when I entered the charge office police officers were just sitting behind the counter and one of them stood up and came to me and asked if he could help me. I answered in the affirmative and I said that I had been knocked over by a taxi. He then asked me where. I explained to him that it was between the filling station and the school; I pronounced the name of the school. The police officer said: “Yes, that spot, you mean there is no homestead there? What is the house number for the homestead?” I insisted that it was just on the road. I did not have time to check the homestead. He said, “Oh right, you do not want to be helped”, and sat down. I then looked for his captain and asked him what was actually happening, and the captain got up and said that that was typical of him, and that’s how he behaves. I said, “Hey, it means there is a still a lot to be done”.

Minister, we therefore say police officers should be visible; they should not hide but should be seen so that people can be afraid, and the criminals would be afraid of committing crimes because they would see that the police officers are present. They should not be like the typical old-era police who would hide and wait for a person to commit a crime and then make the arrest thereafter.

The other problem is with regard to traffic cops who hide with the camera concealed amongst the bushes to entrap people. They should, in fact, reveal that they are present so that a person can reduce speed. Just try something there, Minister. [Laughter.]

Another thing, Minister, that still needs to be looked at, especially in KwaZulu-Natal, is when there are izimbizo there are people who refuse to be searched and they carry weapons which they had been previously warned not to carry. Perhaps you should be a little tough on these people, because it is not good to hear them tell you straight away that they will not surrender their firearms. I hope you will try to be a little bit tough there.

I also want to touch on the subject of communication between the investigating officers and the prosecutors. The question of departmental clusters should also happen at grassroots level, that is at ward level and at police stations as well as in courts and at correctional services. They should come together and discuss when the person is arrested that they will move from this step to this one. There should also not be any animosity between the investigating officer and the prosecutor such as, for example, when the investigating officer brings a case docket and a prosecutor throws it away and says the investigation was of a low standard. Why would such a prosecutor not call the investigating officer and tell him that this is where he or she should make corrections so that the case can proceed? Why is there such animosity, and the dockets are thrown away and are said not to be OK? I now, Minister, want to proceed to the community policing forums. [Time expired.]]

Mr J SLABBERT (Special Delegate, KwaZulu-Natal): Chair, I have listened with great interest to what the Minister has said, but I listened especially to what the Minister of Safety and Security said, and I would like to congratulate him on what he has achieved so far. Clearly, he is determined to make a difference to crime in our country and I am sure that his determination will carry on into the future and he will continue to combat crime. There is a saying: Cometh the moment, cometh the man.

However, the unfortunate truth is that there are still a number of negative aspects of the crime situation in the whole of the Republic. The first thing that comes to mind is the continuous proof that there is a great deal of corruption in our police service. At times it would seem that this is increasing rather than diminishing. Almost every day we hear of awaiting- trial and convicted prisoners escaping in the most unlikely circumstances. Invariably the follow-up reports indicate that these escapes more often than not involve members of the police. This seems to be true of cash-in- transit robberies, stock thefts, car hijackings and armed robberies.

I am not saying this lightly because during a visit by the Safety and Security portfolio committee to a number of police stations communities almost without exception constantly reported these things.

Another very worrying thing is that despite the amnesty on firearms more and more crimes, even petty ones, seem to involve firearms that are used to kill. It is very sad that a human being can lose his life for something as worthless as a cellphone.

There is another problem that we need to look at very carefully: Historically, in South Africa, the police have been looked upon with more than disdain, they have been despised. I was a policeman myself; I passed out in February 1952 before most of you here were born.

Generally, the population regards them as inferior. This attitude towards the police force has been around for a long time and needs to change. Police, because of their low standing in the community - their economic standing caused by extremely low salaries, please make a note Mr Minister - and their general working conditions suffer from extremely low self-esteem. This lack of belief in themselves is the cause of many of the problems we face. A person who has no pride in his job is a person who is easily broken one way or the other.

Many policepersons suffer from psychological problems caused by the nature of their jobs. Others are alcohol and sometimes drug abusers, some become brutal and others become corrupt. We need to be concentrating on what it is we have to do to remedy this state of affairs. We need to work out what can be done and what should be done to restore the self-esteem and commitment of the members of our police force and perhaps it needs to begin in Parliament.

The community, and I include ourselves in this, rely almost solely on the police for protection so we should note them and give them the thanks they so richly deserve. We demand from them a commitment, but we do not reciprocate.

How many times have we called our commanders in front of our committees to account for the mistakes and blunders made by the police? How many times have the failures of the force been debated in Parliament? It is very often. I believe that there should be a change in attitude and we need to spend more time looking at the great service rendered by most of the force, because the truth is that reward works better than punishment. I believe that a soft word will mostly achieve more than a harsh word. We have the self-esteem of our police force in our hands so let us build it up.

Members of the police know the dangers they face. We know how many of their colleagues die whilst on duty and what happens to their families. Nevertheless, every day they continue to do one of the bravest things one can do; they risk, their lives to ensure the safety of our community.

Chair, I see that my time is up. Let me conclude by saying to everybody here and to every South African, and especially to the SAPS out there as a whole: “Masisukume sakhe i-South Africa.” [Let us stand up and build South Africa.] I thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Chairperson, Ministers and Deputy Ministers, hon delegates, during my recent inaugural tour of SA National Defence Force operations in the Great Lakes region, I developed an even deeper respect for and appreciation of the role our Defence Force members play in ensuring that the will of our government and the Department of Defence is effected and secured.

As a result of what I experienced out there, I feel it is both timely and appropriate that I dedicate my speech today primarily to the solid performance of the men and women of the SANDF deployed outside our borders.

We are generally recognised by local government officials, by our peers from command structures of other contingents and by the United Nations as the most effective contingent in both operational areas for our discipline, skill, humanity and ability to deliver on the general expectations of peacekeeping. Our troops are always on hand to give humanitarian support to the local communities. Prominent local officials often seek us out in order to use our medical facilities and staff rather than their own fully fledged hospitals.

Our VIP Protection Services are in demand, and our engineering teams have performed outstanding work for local government and operations projects. We are often called upon to effect logistics for referendums and election processes. Our troops, which man patrol boats on the Great Lakes, have significantly reduced criminal activity, and our presence in general, as a credible and effective peacekeeping force, has been a major stabilising factor.

Furthermore, in keeping with the very South African ethos of ubuntu and Batho Pele, our commanders and troops have of their own accord supported schools and orphanages in the communities in operational areas. Many soldiers have also of their own volition and out of their own pockets supported individual children with school fees and equipment for their educational requirements. Having said that, we are not saying that we do not have challenges, weaknesses and issues that impact on the reputation and security of the country.

At this juncture I want to repeat our condolences to the families of the late Riflemen Vusi Gasa and Bashin Sejake who tragically lost their lives in a recent shooting incident in Burundi. The department has launched a full investigation into the matter. I can assure you that every clear transgression, by our externally deployed troops of the UN, of the South African military code of conduct on record has been dealt with by the SANDF as swiftly and decisively as possible. The media allegations of human rights abuses and sexual impropriety attributed to various troop- contributing countries have also been of very serious concern to us.

However, our challenge in this regard is that to this day the Ministry of Defence does not have a single official report on complaints against our troops from the United Nations. I raised these issues very sharply at the UN Monuc headquarters in Kinshasa and questioned the ethics of allowing the media to continually quote the United Nations, unchallenged, on unsubstantiated allegations against our troops.

With regard to our challenges of clear cases of indiscipline, part of our resources will have to be utilised for the transformation of the military justice system in order to deal even more effectively and efficiently with miscreants in the SA National Defence Force.

We have also experienced challenges with regard to logistics and supply- chain management between our department and our external operations. The department has taken the view that our operations in far-off countries are our modus operandi for the foreseeable future. Therefore, infrastructure and our ability to send material and deploy and support our personnel on the ground are to be effected as timeously and efficiently as possible.

The transformation agenda of the department is moving forward on all levels. In keeping with our priority of rejuvenating the SA National Defence Force and supporting peacekeeping commitments, I am pleased to inform the House that in January this year the military skills development system had its highest intake ever, with over 4 000 young men and women and enrolling for a future in the SA National Defence Force. In July we envisage receiving a further intake of 2 000.

Under the umbrella of our human resource 2010 strategy, the comprehensive rejuvenation of the SA National Defence Force, however, can only further escalate as we start to implement the exit mechanism for the older cadre and bolster our reserve forces.

With regard to ongoing developments in terms of transformation, I must also join the Minister of Defence in acknowledging the recent senior appointments to the leadership profile of the Department of Defence. I want to reiterate our gratitude and appreciation to General Nyanda for his role in shaping the current SA National Defence Force, and also congratulate General Ngwenya on his much-deserved appointment as the new Chief of the SA National Defence Force.

Our vigilance in transformation is paying off as both the SA Navy and the SA Air Force have now submitted comprehensive plans and programmes of transformation with clear timelines, measurable outputs and an intention to monitor implementation.

The future and welfare of the military veterans of South Africa is a very high priority. I have just completed the first round of the defence izimbizo with military veterans in Gauteng, the Western Cape, the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal. I intend to visit all nine provinces before the end of the year with a view to . . . [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mnu M A MZIZI: Sihlalo, oNgqongqoshe bakazwelonke namaSekela abo, ongqongqoshe bezifundazwe, nozakwethu, kuzoba lukhuni kimina ukukhuluma ngesabiwomali soNgqongqoshe abane abangaphakathi kwale Ndlu kodwa ngizozama ukuthi ngifinyelele kuNgqongqoshe ngamunye. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Mr M A MZIZI: Chairperson, national Ministers and their deputies, provincial ministers, and my colleagues, it would be difficult for me to talk about the budget of each of the four Ministers who are in this House but I will try to reach each Minister.]

Within the limited time given to me I have decided to pick up on only two issues related to the budget of the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development. We have come a long way. For 11 years we have been talking about justice for the people.

Isimisiwe iKhomishana yamaQiniso nokuBuyisana, yawuphothula umsebenzi wayo nakuba kwaba kuningi okwasala. Ziningi izicelo zalabo okwakufanele ukuthi baxolelwe abaselokhu beduve emajele. Okusemqoka-ke lapha yikomidi lokunxephezela abahlukunyezwa. Ngabe lesi sabiwomali salo nyaka sizokwazi yini ukufeza lezo zidingo na? Zikhala kuwe lezo zinduku mama ngoba phela abantu bakhala ngapha nangapha. Sabona kwenzeka ukuthi abanye banxeshezelwe ngaleso sikhathi. Sikushayela ihlombe lokho. Sekumile-ke kuthe nse. Isiziba sicwebile nje, akusezwakali ukuthi manje ngabe inyoni ikhalaphi? Sisize-ke mama. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[The Truth and Reconciliation Commission has completed its work. There are many requests for those who were supposed to be forgiven who are disregarded in jails. What is of importance is the forgiveness for those who were violated. Will this budget for this year be able to meet those needs? That is directed to you, Madam, because people are complaining side by side. We saw that others were compensated at the same time. We congratulate that. Now it has come to a standstill, as nothing is happening. We do not hear anything; Madam, help us.]

Another leg is the report of the SA Law Reform Commission on Project 82 under the heading “Sentencing”, which relates to a compensation fund for victims of crime in South Africa. A lot of thought was given to this project.

However, the commission arrived at the conclusion that the establishment of this compensation fund, at this stage, was not a viable option. The reason put forward by the commission was that there were no prerequisites necessary for the effective and efficient administration of the fund.

Angazi-ke noma ikhuluma ngokuthi mhlawumbe asinayo imali yokuthi siqhubeke nalokhu. Sengathi kungake kubukwe ngelinye iso lokhu. [I am not too sure whether it is about us not having the money to carry on with that. I wish this could be looked at either way.]

Therefore, the question is: Will we at any stage see this compensation fund for victims of crime in South Africa as a necessity?

Due to time constraints, I will briefly touch on Safety and Security. In this current budget, are we going to see a good portion given to a community-policing forum?

Angikusho ngigcizelele lokhu ukuthi i-CPF lena yadalwa ngesikhathi lapho amaphoyisa ayengasathembakali khona emphakathini. Sathi-ke ayibe khona ngoba kwakuyiwona umphakathi owawungenza ukuthi amaphoyisa athembakale. Sinethemba-ke lokuthi uma i-CPF ingake iphoselwe kuthi xaxa, iyokwazi ukwelekela ngokuthi umsebenzi wamaphoyisa uqhubeke futhi sikwazi nokuthi sinciphise ubugebengu ezweni lethu. Isikhathi njalo belu esingijimisayo. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[I must emphasize that the CPF was created when the police were no longer reliable. We said the CPF must be there because it was the public that would make the police reliable. We hope that if the CPF is given more, it would help the police to carry out their duties and decrease crime in our country. My time is running out.]

With regard to Correctional Services, with a budget of 2,2% of the total Budget I do not see this institution fulfilling its mandate. The IFP feels that the Justice, Constitutional Development and Safety and Security departments, as well as institutions using Correctional Services as a place of accommodation - or if one may say so, storage for their clients - should contribute in terms of financial assistance.

Akukho esingase sikusho ngaphandle kokuthi empeleni isandla asingavuvuki uma kufanelele singene ekhikhini ukuze kuphume imali kwelekelelwe uMnyango wezamaJele. Phela sifuna ukuthi kuhlunyiswe izimilo lapho. Asingananazi.

Maqondana nezokuvikela kuncane kakhulu engizokusho. Isikhathi esingigijimisayo. Angiboni okuningi kwezokuvikela ngaphandle kokuthi sengathi kufanele kugxilwe kakhulu ekutheni kutshalwe izinsizwa nezintombi emingceleni yaseNingizimu Afrika ukuze amasango okuchushwa kuwo avalwe, ngoba sengathi sekukwathela wayeka nje – kwampunzi edla emini. Umuntu usezingenela nje achachaze abuye enze noma ngabe yini ezweni lethu. Sihlalo, ngivumele ngonge isikhathi sakho. Ngehlela ngezansi. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[There is nothing we can say besides the fact that we must not be doubtful in supporting the Department of Correctional Services. We want to rehabilitate the characters here. We must not be hesitant.

According to Defence there is a very little to say. My time is running out. I do not see much on Defence besides the fact that ladies and gentlemen must be placed on the borders of South Africa so that the gates where people creep through are closed. However, it looks like people are doing so anyway. A person will come in and do anything in our country. Chairperson, allow me to save you time. I rest my case. [Applause.]]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES (Ms C E GILLWALD): Hon Chairperson, Ministers, Deputy Ministers and colleagues, 2005 has seen the Department of Correctional Services accelerate its efforts to focus our programmes on improved service delivery. Central to this process has been the recent publication of our White Paper, the blueprint for our envisaged transformation agenda. Public attention around prisons and other headline-grabbing events always tends to be negative. I’m not saying that these events should not be covered, on the contrary, such coverage gives us valuable opportunity to engage the public on several of the core issues that will increase their understanding of the role that our department has to play within the criminal justice system; and good progress has been made in this regard.

Increasingly, I sense in the public mood a readiness to understand the core issues and challenges and more specifically the role of Correctional Services in the fight against crime. So, if, for example, one of our more vexing challenges, that of overcrowding, draws much attention, discussion and valuable public debate, this new focus enables us to ventilate and articulate our positions as we struggle with the transformation of our system, of our institution, from one of punishment and retribution to a system of rehabilitation and correction.

Because the criminal justice system is a continuum of arresting, adjudication and sentencing, improvement in any one part of the system will swell the number of inmates housed within our facilities. So too, and herein lies the rub, any inefficiency that persists or exists within the system, has precisely the same effect.

We welcome the current process under the guidance of the JCPS DGs, led by National Treasury, of examining the knock-on effects of resourcing one area of our criminal justice system as balanced against the other. One of the more disturbing characteristics of our inmate population is that nearly 68% of our offenders are under 35 years of age. It can be expected that many offenders will thus enter our systems, spend a considerable amount of time within our facilities and then return at a relatively youthful age to the communities from which they originate. Our ability to intervene constructively during that time of incarceration is a critical element of our cluster’s crime prevention strategy.

I will now go back to the issues of overcrowding. This is a challenge that faces prison systems worldwide. Its existence compromises the health of inmates; places unrealistic demands on existing infrastructure, with serious cost implications for infrastructure maintenance; frustrates the institution’s capacity to rehabilitate offenders; and it puts at severe risk the safety and security of correctional officials and inmates.

We have, at this point, always concentrated on issues around awaiting-trial prisoners - just do remember that some years ago this figure stood at 61 000, in fact, we brought it down to 48 000 - but what is disturbing is that our sentence prison population in 1998 was 88 000. It is now in excess of 136 000 and that is the problem. Not only is the number of sentenced prisoners going up, their sentences are also increasing in length; and so our ability to manage this process needs to be better.

Our responses to overcrowding have to be innovative and they call for integrated and imaginative sectoral responses. We know that we cannot build our way out of the prison problem and neither should we try. Preventative and diversion interventions on the supply side of our system at a departmental and cluster level are essential. It is only with our partners in the CJS cluster that we can begin to address any serious reduction in the numbers in our institutions.

The time has also come, I believe, for a codified sentencing framework that makes use of alternative sentencing options, where applicable, and balances repeat-offending considerations skillfully with length of sentence considerations. Such a framework will, I am certain, result in more uniform sentencing practices and ensure a reduction in the unnecessary incarceration of petty offenders.

In this regard I believe as a department we have a really important role to play. We must offer a system of parole and community corrections that captures the confidence of our judges and magistrates. In this regard a gradual but firm shift in expenditure to this aspect of our work is absolutely essential, providing effective, secure and reliable parole in community correction systems, and will, I am sure, provide a steady pressure-release valve on the overpopulation burdens.

The Department of Correctional Services is the co-ordinating entity for government’s 16 days of activism for no violence against women and children. In this regard efforts to reduce the number of children incarcerated within our system have been prioritised. The joint task team, to which the Minister has referred, is expected to yield improvements in this front. The mere presence, however, of children within the correctional facilities flies in the face of international human rights instruments to which we have ascribed as a country; and even overpopulation, as it impacts on children, needs to be understood.

Comrades, friends, and colleagues, when I talk to you about overpopulation, think of these things: we inherited from the apartheid system an allocation of 3,3 m2 per person in our facilities. This has declined to 2,1 m2, far less than the European standards for 4,4 m2 in a collective cell and 6 m2 in an individual cell, and this is because the population has increased at a greater rate than our infrastructure.

So we started with a very low base, but I want you to think now of the impact; put your son in a 2 m2 space where in some prisons because of the excessive overcrowding, sometimes up to 300%, one hour of exercise per day is the reality. Please don’t make these abstract statistics. Please help us make them a reality and help us convert them into a changed way in which to operate. We need to get children rehabilitated. We need, colleagues, in our legislation, to make our parole more flexible, and the movement at the moment is in the opposite direction.

We need for instance, to, provide for the Presidential Award. If someone has done that course, it’s a three-year course, and the person is young and does not represent a threat to the community, we need to say, “Because you have got your gold, bronze or silver medal we need to consider parole because we need to get you out of jail; we’re giving you the skills and we need you to resocialise yourself and be integrated into your community”. We need more flexible options and, in fact, our legislation is going in the opposite direction.

So, colleagues, let’s think of these things. In effect, our courts are required to pronounce sentences where the conditions under which people are held are really a test of the Constitution, and we have to think of these things and we have to make them speak to one another and we have to make sure that we are able to rehabilitate and interact with our people, because we are trying to build a society based on human rights, ethics and values; those that are associated with a democratic and hard-fought freedom.

An aspect of our work that requires further refinement and consideration is the gendered nature of imprisonment. The uneven distribution of women centres across the country has harsh implications for women and access to their families. So too prevailing poverty biases, as they pertain to women in this country, must be considered when conditions of bail and fines are considered and imposed by the courts. These and other symptoms illustrate all too starkly the equality imbalances that pertain to women inmates and the distressing multiple discriminations that they endure in a supposedly gender-neutral environment. We need to change that.

Rehabilitation and correction form the cornerstone of our vision for a transformed Correctional Services whose interaction with role-players, NGOs, the private sector, organised labour communities, and indeed the media, should provide a holistic framework aimed at reintegrating offenders into our society.

Our White Paper and the strategic plan of action have crystallised the steps that must be taken in the short, medium and long term if we are to make real the vision we have of a modern, humane system of correction.

Budgetary constraints are a reality with which we must grapple and our establishing an expenditure pattern that demonstrates best-value considerations at every level of our performance is essential. The challenges that the department faces are nothing short of daunting; our approach is of necessity one of incremental and measured progress towards a long-term objective. It’s a tall order but we remain confident that plans for achieving this heady vision are clear, sustainable and in the best interest of our nation. Thank you.

Ms S J LOE: Thank you, hon Chair, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers. I just want to say before I start that I appreciate the fact that the Deputy Minister is paid a substantial amount of money to think a lot about the inmates of prisons. We in the DA spend a lot more time on talking about the victims.

A lot has been said in recent weeks about the Freedom Charter, which the ANC holds up as a blueprint for our progress as a country and as a people. It is undoubtedly a document that has inspired forgiveness in the hearts of millions of South Africans through the hope and optimism it has provided over many dark years. But – and there is always a but – this government falls far short of many of the terms laid down in the charter, particularly those that appear under the heading: All shall be equal before the law.

The fact is that the important clauses in this section of the Freedom Charter are nowhere near what ordinary South Africans, mostly black and poor, experience when they are forced to deal with government institutions in our justice and security cluster. The clauses to which I am referring read:

No-one should shall be imprisoned, deported or restricted without a fair trial; No-one shall be condemned by the order of any Government official; The courts shall be representative of all the people.

Viva!

Imprisonment shall be only for serious crimes against the people, and shall aim at re-education, not vengeance; The police force and army shall be open to all on an equal basis and shall be the helpers and protectors of the people.

I put it to this House that the way in which government officials treat many of our people is a far cry from the spirit of these words. Our public servants must accept that they are exactly that: they are the servants of the people, not their masters. Far more attention and funds need to be paid to training in this regard. And yes, racism still exists, although not exclusively among whites.

Just last week my housekeeper and her family were devastated because an adult family member had gone missing on a Friday evening. This had never happened before, so we all got onto phones to check the hospitals in the area, police stations and eventually mortuaries. By Monday morning she was completely desperate, convinced he was dead because he had never before disappeared without letting his family know where he was.

On Wednesday he was eventually tracked down to a police station in a neighbouring town. The story he told was reminiscent of the old national party days, when the police took people away in vans without any explanation. He was picked up on the side of the road for allegedly being drunk in public, Mr Minister. Whether he was or not will be decided by a court of law, I am sure. The issue is that he asked the officers if he could go to his niece’s house, a few houses away, to inform her that he was being taken away.

The police refused. He asked if they could take him to Brakpan police station, in which jurisdiction the incident happened, not to Springs, because he knew his family would not think of looking for him there. Again the police refused. When he objected he was hit by one of the officers, cutting his lip. Police brutality has not gone away, Mr Minister. He languished in a cell until his distraught family located him five days later. This happened last week.

This is just a practical recent example of how ordinary South African citizens are often, not always, treated in circumstances like this. This smacks of the old regime’s police force, not the new South Africa’s Police Service, which is supposed to protect and dignify people in our communities, not threaten and degrade them.

Many public representatives in this House will attest to the fact that members of the public generally find that dealing with government institutions is a very unpleasant experience. Go to the courts at around the end of the month and see the queues of women waiting for hours for maintenance payouts, Mr Mokoena. I am telling you; many have babies and young children with them that become restless and hungry. Many of these women are panic-stricken because they fear being fired for being away from work for so long while they wait for their money.

Month after month, and year after year - and I have been one of them - the queues are unchanged. Nobody takes any steps to try to make the task of collecting maintenance any easier. No supervisors appear to use their initiative and try and shorten the waiting time, or provide more benches for these women, or do something with their toddlers like providing a play centre of some sort.

Nobody tries to solve the problem of women who wait for hours in queues, only to reach the front and find their maintenance has not been paid in. Why can’t there be a toll-free service, for instance, for women to call first to check if their maintenance is in before they spend their time and money on going to the courts. Why not? We are their servants. We are the public servants.

The hon Minister referred to best-practice systems that were started in Johannesburg and I am delighted to hear it now. I will certainly take her advice to visit that court. It is no better at our prisons, where the friends and relatives of inmates stand for hours on end at visiting times, in every kind of weather, being absolutely soaked by rain, waiting to be checked and searched and only then let through. They have to be searched, I accept that.

With few exceptions, the attitude of officials towards the public is appalling, perhaps they need to be reminded that the visitors are not convicted criminals, and they deserve to be treated properly. Naturally these shortcomings do not apply to all public servants. There are hidden treasures wherever you look hard enough. My colleagues in the National Assembly have addressed many of the problems that cause incompetence, stress, and low morale among police and other officials, just as another member did here today.

Certainly the ANC has a lot to do before it falls into line with the terms of the Freedom Charter and transforms the state into a government for all the people. But it is this cluster of departments, Mr Mokoena, which needs to change. It needs to change fast and you need to accept that, because when the people interact with the police and the courts and the prisons, they generally do so under already traumatic circumstances. Government must make this experience as bearable as possible, and not make it worse.

I would like to think that these criticisms would be taken without the usual umbrage and intolerance from the ruling party. It does not really matter either way, because fortunately we in the DA, who deal with the ANC on the daily basis, are more thick-skinned than most, and we don’t measure ourselves against ANC approval ratings.

All the same, it is tantamount to cowardice for ANC members to hide behind the protective skirts of parliamentary privilege when they tell outright lies. I challenge member Setona to go outside with me, and repeat his reprehensible ranting about my leader outside, if he is brave enough. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr A T MANYOSI: Madam Chairperson, Ministers and Deputy Ministers, hon members and special delegates, heads of departments and officials, ladies and gentlemen, one sometimes wonders whether the DP or the DA is still the same thing as the PFP. One wonders whether the hon Helen Suzman would say the same things that are being said today. There was a stage when Helen Suzman would say something that was tangible, something that was sensible. But those that have followed her have suddenly departed from her stance.

Even the party of Frederick Van Zyl Slabbert is totally different from what the DA or the DP is saying today. There is one thing, Madam Minister, which has not happened - it is that the Truth and Reconciliation Commission has not been able to accomplish its function, or what it was intended to do. This was because some of these parties, the DP or DA, amongst others, and the judiciary should have appeared before the TRC and say why they supported apartheid during that time, when now they are saying the opposite. [Applause.]

The Minister of Justice delivered her budget speech in the Old Assembly fittingly because that is where the laws were developed to perpetuate injustices. When she delivered it there, I asked myself why the Minister was delivering her speech there. She wanted to dismantle apartheid where it was created. That is why she delivered her speech there.

A judge whom I won’t mention because I had a look at the Rules and I don’t know whether they would allow me to mention judges by names - I know he is no longer serving on the bench - once boasted: “In my career I have sent to the gallows so many black people, tens of black people, but I have never once sent a white person to the gallows.” The context within which he said that did not warrant that he should boast about that, except to say he was admitting that the gallows were meant for black people at that time.

The point I want to make is that the judiciary will not be in a position to transform itself. It will have to be forced to transform. In her budget speech in the National Assembly on 20 May 2005, the hon Minister of Justice made a point that sought to encourage participation by all in the transformation of our justice system when she said:

We the people of South Africa recognise the injustices of our past, honour those who suffered for justice and freedom in our land, respect those who have worked to build and develop our country, and believe that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, united in diversity.

She further quoted from the Freedom Charter where it says that the courts shall be representative of all the people of South Africa. Increasingly the opposition party is also quoting from the Freedom Charter and they want to teach the ANC about the Freedom Charter, when the Freedom Charter is a document that was adopted first by the ANC.

This reminds me of a 1989 case of the State vs Masina, in which the accused were charged with treason, terrorism and murder, and where they refused to participate in the trial proceedings on the grounds that they believed that the court and the judicial system, at the time, could not operate independently from the political system within which it functioned.

Today, they talk about the independence of the judiciary, but never in the history of this country, from the time that apartheid took over, has the judiciary been independent of the government. It is only now after 1994 that the judiciary is independent of the government.

Likewise in another case, referred to as the Rainbow trial - I won’t mention the name of the person who was involved there - the accused refused to plead to charges of treason and terrorism and argued that the then South African government should have been brought to court and found guilty of the charges. Those charges were undermining the people of South Africa. Those were charges that were supposed to be brought against P W Botha and his cronies.

This was precisely because the majority of the people of the country were being charged under laws and they had never participated in their making. In that trial they argued that:

We cannot have confidence in the courts, they are not the people of South Africa. They cannot dispense justice except in accordance with the rules devised by the oppressor.

They then continued to quote from the ANC document, and said: Our ideal is that all shall be equal before the law, that the court shall be representative of all the people.

When I quote that, I am not quoting the DP, because the DA is no longer there. [Laughter.]

What I am trying to drive home is the fact that to transform the judicial system South Africa will not only require the courage of the hon Minister and Deputy Minister of Justice, it will require that they put in place sufficient funds to sustain the effort. Obviously resistance to change will be enormous.

Even now the judges cannot go to the Justice College in Pretoria. They say they can’t go there because they don’t want to be trained by this state, but they were prepared to be trained by another state that was perpetuating injustice.

Mr Justice Didcott had this to say at one stage – I quote him not because I favour him, but because he was one of about three judges that actually did not really want to be told what to say in court. It was Justices Didcott and Goldstein, and another one - I won’t mention another one. He said: “Politicians have done untold damage to our South African version of Roman Dutch law, of which we lawyers are rightly proud and profess to be most proud.”

Drawing on its own historical traditions and those borrowed from the English common law, it once set great store by human rights and personal freedom. No other common law in the world had a better score there. It was much admired internationally. It probably enjoyed the confidence of the masses of our people. I said that it was such a law.

One important case that is known to those people that were struggling is the Tshenoli case, where he was not prepared to listen to P W Botha, especially when P W Botha wanted him “to convict or keep Tshenoli in detention”. This statement was made in 1989, which was summing up the situation of justice in the preceding years.

In the legal history of this country, the independence of the judiciary only occurred after 1994. The judiciary had to dance to the music of the apartheid system until 1994, and until the passage of our Constitution, judges had no option but to administer injustice. That is what they were administering before 1994. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr A GRINKER (KwaZulu-Natal): Chairperson, hon Ministers present and hon members, as a special delegate, it is my obligation to represent the province’s interests in the NCOP. Today we are debating the Defence, Correctional Services, Justice and Safety and Security cluster’s Budget Votes.

Schedule 5 of the Constitution allocates no exclusive areas of provincial legislative competence from this cluster to provinces. Schedule 4 gives provinces no concurrent powers over Justice, Defence or Correctional Services.

As such, I must at the outset inform the hon Minister for Justice that I will unfortunately not comment on the raging debate around the autonomy of the judiciary. I will also not address myself to the hon Minister of Correctional Services on the alarming situation created by overcrowding in Correctional Services. To the Minister of Defence, all I can say is, welcome home.

The hon Minister of Safety and Security, however, will not be so easily spared today, well not entirely. Schedule 4 only gives provinces the concurrent legislative competence over Safety and Security and then only to the extent conferred upon provinces in terms of section 206(3) of Chapter 11.

Hon Minister, permit me therefore to address you on these limited areas. The biggest problem the province of KwaZulu-Natal has faced in implementing its mandate in this regard has been the lack of funds, which has meant that the department has been unable to employ sufficient personnel for the department to effectively perform its oversight role. It is hoped that the expansion of the provincial department’s budget for the 2005-06 year will lead to the employment of more personnel so that specialised SAPS units can be monitored and so that postmonitoring compliance checks can take place. It should be recalled that in a province with 183 police stations this is no small task.

Even with the greater budget, the department will still be lagging until further funds are provided for the necessary information technology to allow for an automated station monitoring system. An electronic complaints management system is also necessary so that the department can effectively address complaints from members of the public. I am certain many other provinces have a need for similar information technology platforms, and much money could be saved if Business Against Crime developed suitable programmes that could be utilized in this regard.

Let me now turn to the issue of the community police forums. The decision by the MEC to set aside funding to the tune of R3 million to be accessed by CPFs is most welcome. For the full benefits of such funding to be reaped, however, CPFs need to be capacitated both from an institutional and a skills point of view. This would also help to reduce some of the tensions that operate in certain areas between the police and the CPFs.

At a national Safety and Security strategic planning workshop held at Caledon this year, an appeal was made for regulations that would elaborate on the functioning of the CPFs and spell out the working relationship between CPFs and the police secretariat. This recommendation is completely supported and it is hoped that it will be acted upon shortly.

In many cases CPFs have become like a secret society or a club where if you are not a member of the CPF you are not aware where the meetings are, and other members of the community do not have access. This needs to be changed; hopefully these regulations will deal with this.

Part of provincial oversight of the police involves dealing with instances of abuse of power by police. The credibility of the police depends on the extent to which people believe they are able to deal with crime and disorder. People will, however, also look at how the police behave when attempting to achieve these objectives. Police incompetence, brutality or corruption lower the esteem in which they are held by society and seriously compromise their effectiveness. We cannot afford to shy away from our responsibility of holding the police accountable for their conduct. In any large organisation bad apples will exist but they need to be weeded out speedily before the rot spreads. By the same token, whilst one is aware of the extremely difficult and terribly underresourced environment in which police operate, instances of going beyond what is legally allowed in attempting to obtain convictions cannot be accepted in a democratic society nor can a situation persist where police officers take out their frustrations on the public they are supposed to serve.

Often victims of crime go to open a case and are treated in a way entirely contrary to the principles of Batho Pele. Ways also have to be found to limit the growing trend of police officers suffering from work-related stress or tension, themselves becoming one of the major sources of domestic violence.

The Victorian lyricist, W S Gilbert, stated, “A policeman‘s lot is not a happy one”. Little has changed in more than a century. Efforts must be doubled to reduce the levels of personal risk police operate under.

One notes a minor decrease in the level of killings of the police officers but much more needs to be done to combat this. While police must uphold the law in their conduct in the democratic state . . . Thank you. [Time expired.][Applause.]

Ms T MADIKANE (Northern Cape): Hon Chair, hon Ministers, hon Deputy Ministers, colleagues, ladies and gentlemen, we are greatly honoured and humbled as a province to be participating in this debate today. Our presentation has, as its backdrop, the celebration of the 50th anniversary of the Freedom Charter.

Our mandate is very central and key to the realisation of the vision of equality, liberty, peace and security as articulated in the clauses of the Freedom Charter. We take our cue and inspiration from the words of our former President, Comrade Nelson Mandela, when he took office as the first- ever black and democratically elected President of the Republic of South Africa on 10 May 1994. He said: “Never and never again shall the laws of our land rend our people apart or legalise their oppression and repression.”

It should therefore be appreciated that the transformation of the police and judiciary is a matter of imperative rather than an option, because the police and judiciary, in a democracy such as ours, have to embrace the responsibility to ensure and defend the rights to equality, liberty, peace and security of all the people.

A key priority for the safety and liaison department in the Northern Cape is to address internal capacity. The transfer of the traffic management function to the department has put us in a better position to improve the department’s qualitative and quantitative capacity to effectively deliver on its mandate.

The police and other law-enforcement agencies continue to fight crime, violence and abuse within our communities with the might of the law, making it harder for criminals to evade the long arm of the law. The police particularly target drug syndicates who unscrupulously enrich themselves and flourish economically at the expense of our youth and society under Operation Toxic Algae launched in February this year.

From a social crime prevention perspective, the department of safety and liaison continues to co-ordinate the implementation of five integrated social crime prevention projects. They are aimed at dealing with the underlying causal and enabling factors of each one of the priority crimes and in support of law enforcement and policing.

Key among the cluster priorities is the priority to reduce crime and in particular contact crime with 7% to 10%. Our major challenge when it comes to the achievement of our target is the fact that contact crimes are difficult for police, and call for integrated strategies and programmes.

Our focus for this year will therefore be on the revival and intensification of the antirape strategy as an integrated strategy to combat, in the main, rape and sexual violence against women and children. It is our honest belief that we can minimise the number of rapes and sexual violence against women and children, in fact, all violent crimes, if we join hands and work together against violence and abuse.

The antirape strategies and integrated strategy that involves other departments, including the SA Police Service, department of safety and liaison, social services, health and justice, is based on three pillars of prevention, combating and support. We all know that the vast majority of cases of rape, violence and abuse of children happen in the domestic setting where the police, medical staff, social workers and the judiciary will almost always come after the fact and their response will always be reactive.

We are therefore in the process of shifting our approach where we react after the fact to one where we proactively do something to make our homes, streets and communities safer. We therefore consistently encourage and urge communities, with the community police forums in the forefront, to identify possibilities and opportunities and intensify efforts to render our streets, homes, schools and communities safe for especially our girl- children and women who happen to be the most vulnerable in respect of rape, abuse and sexual and domestic violence.

We noted that there has been a report that was quoted here by the hon member from the DA where he was referring to a one-sided story. In our experience, we find that there are always two sides to a story. When we interact with the communities we discover that some people make allegations against the police, but we also learn that it is very important to listen to the other side of the story.

In most instances when the communities are actively involved within the Community Safety Forums, they are able to work together with the police to find solutions. It is also important to note that in order for you to be credible in your criticism, it is important to acknowledge the gains and strides that have been made. It is only then that people will start to believe what you are saying. When you just dwell on the negatives that are, in most instances, perceived, then the people are going are to close their ears because we are not noting what everybody else is noting.

The department launched a very intensive and successful safety month Letsema campaign during February this year under the theme “Celebrating of a decade of democratising policing in pursuit of safer communities and security for all”. This culminated in a provincial summit on safer communities.

Through the safer communities programme of action developed at this summit, the department will continue to enhance integration, collaboration and co- operation, and will as well work towards a strategy to effectively co- ordinate and integrate local crime prevention, aiming in particular to reduce fragmentation and duplication of crime prevention programmes and activities in the province at all levels. Key in this regard is the strengthening and capacity-building of the role of local government through the community safety forums and through the CPS in the creations of safer communities.

As part of their regular oversight visits to stations and communities, the Ministry and the department will continue to expose and intervene in a number of situations of poor policing, police brutality, breakdown in police-community relations and incidents of racism and misconduct where the police are implicated, with the aim of building, not of destroying.

Key priorities pertaining to oversight, monitoring and quality assurance of SAPS performance and conduct for the 2005-06 year is to ensure that the civilian oversight and monitoring function of the department achieves depth in order to add value and expedite the slow transformational process within the SAPS in the Northern Cape. The department will therefore enhance its capacity in relation to legal services, research and analysis in order to be able to advocate for major policy interventions in pursuit of enhanced transformation of the SAPS in the Northern Cape, with specific reference to the question of psychometric testing and why the Northern Cape applicants in particular seem to be unsuccessful in these tests.

There are constraints or gaps that have been identified and the programmes have been implemented to address those in relation to the capacity-building of provincial candidates, especially Africans and women. Also, there is the matter of operational effectiveness and efficiency, particularly as it relates to resources allocation, utilization and management; especially in view of the fact that the hon Minister did accentuate the fact that resources are sufficient and that the excuse of lack of resources can no longer be used by managers and members at all levels.

As far as the infrastructure is concerned, the long-overdue Presidential Galeshewe Community Safety Centre has finally been completed and it was handed over during March. The police have occupied the facility and plans are currently under way for the official opening. The construction of three new police stations is under way in Steinkopf, Kuruman and Aggeneys. The Steinkopf police station is on target and expected to be completed by midyear, in other words, in June or July 2005.

Despite lengthy delays as a result of financial problems experienced by the original building contractors at Kuruman and Aggeneys, both projects are currently progressing very well after new contractors took over the projects. Both stations will only be completed towards the end of 2005. It is actually . . . [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Ms F NYANDA: Madam Chair, Ministers, Deputy Ministers, hon MECs, hon members, special delegates, underpinning the putting of offenders behind bars is a common understanding that punishment has both a corrective and deterrent value, which means that imprisonment does not only purport to correct unlawful and wrongful behaviour on the part of those who break the law, but also purports to prevent offenders and potential offenders from breaking the law.

The former President of our country, Nelson Mandela, once reminded us that offenders are human beings too. They are our brothers and sisters, our sons and daughters who have disappointed us. Hence, our treatment of the prison population must derive content from our Constitution, which provides that everyone who is detained, including every prisoner that is sentenced, has the right to conditions of detention that promote human dignity, including at least exercises and the provision, at state expense, of adequate accommodation, nutrition, reading material and medical treatment.

The debate on overcrowding in South African prisons did not start yesterday, last month or in recent years. Already in its 1969 Morogoro conference, when analysing principles of the Freedom Charter, the ANC pointed out that South Africa has the highest proportion of prisoners than any state in the world, because there are so many petty infringements to which a penalty of imprisonment is attached.

Even today, this remains true of the South African prisons that are overpopulated; hence they experience problems of overcrowding. Clearly, the current overcrowding in the South African prisons cannot be viewed as a creature of our democratic state, but as a product of the apartheid past.

However, during the Budget Vote in the National Assembly on 13 April 2005, our Minister Ngconde Balfour said that while it remains important to continue managing levels of overcrowding, in terms of our constitutional obligations, the sustainable solution of overcrowding is to be found on how we correct offending behaviour and improve the correction and development of offenders.

While under apartheid system prisoners were denied respect and human dignity, the ANC government has developed and continues to develop a culture of human rights within prisons. This culture has a potential of motivating prisoners to become law-abiding and productive citizens of our beloved country.

It is within the context of the government that we must continue to deploy resources such as efforts and programmes aimed at ensuring that prisoners, who are among the most disadvantaged and vulnerable in our society, are developed and re-enter our society better prepared.

Being committed to the safety and security of our communities, we, as the ANC, welcome and appreciate the successes in reducing the number of escapes from 195 in the 2003-04 financial year to 171 in the 2004-05 financial year. We challenge the Ministry and the department to accelerate and intensify the implementation of the national and regional escape-prevention strategies with a view to improve on the successes recorded thus far, and to minimise chances of escapes from our correctional centres. I thank you. [Applause.]

Ms D D PULE (Mpumalanga): Madam Chairperson, Ministers and Deputy Ministers, MECs, hon members, special delegates and permanent delegates, allow me to quote:

 On this day, 10 years ago, I was hiding gold coins under floorboards
 and trying to get my hands on a gun before the balloon went up. As a
 white South African, I was fully expecting war . . . In my view, peace
 would never come. There was too much history, too much pain and anger .
 . . Ten days before the predicted apocalypse, there came a miraculous
 reprieve. A reverent quiet settled upon the nation . . .


 Unaccustomed to such humiliation, I set out to discredit the outcome.
 The peace is illusory, I snarled; anarchy is coming. Look at crime!
 Rape! Guns and mayhem! But there came a day when I realised I was just
 a bad loser. All things considered, the new government was making slow
 but steady progress.

Chairperson, that was Rian Malan, author of the memorial My Traitor’s Heart, writing in the Sunday Times of 1 February 2004, before the tenth anniversary of our democracy.

I quote Rian Malan because there are some who sit in this august House, participate in these debates and claim to represent the interests and aspirations of the Rian Malans of our country. They go out of their way to discredit the outcome of 1994 at every given opportunity. They tell all who can listen that the government of the day and the Ministry for Safety and Security have failed the people of South Africa.

All that they know is how to complain about the levels of services provided by the SAPS, and they even have the audacity to compare it with the former SA Police Force, when in reality they do not understand the challenges of the police in their daily business in their endeavour to protect our people.

In 1994 our community’s lives were disrupted and our values of ubuntu have been eroded. We are therefore addressing the moral regeneration programme as a crime prevention tool in our province where men and women respect each other, building an environment where the spirit of “your child is my child” prevails.

Moral regeneration is one of the most important vehicles for the mobilisation of our people to participate in the creation of a more just society than the one that we inherited – a society in which the rule of law reigns supreme and people’s rights and property are respected.

The community policing forums are established and functional at most police stations in our province. A programme to build the capacity of these CPFs is under way and the process will be completed in due course. As a measure of ensuring the sustenance of these forums hard work is being done to help them draw up operational plans and programmes.

As the Minister has indicated, our main task in this financial year will be crime prevention. The blueprints through which our province will navigate the road to safety and security for the entire provincial crime prevention framework has been unveiled. It provides for the establishment of a multi- agency structure to deal with crime.

As drugs and alcohol abuse are the main contributors to many contact crimes, and the youth the main perpetrators and victims of these crimes, we have established an anticrime school games in partnership with the department of education, culture, sports and recreation, and an NGO, the Sports Care Foundation. Problematic schools where high levels of crime and criminality take place have been identified. Further interventions have been earmarked for implementation in those schools. The adapted hope programme was introduced and will be intensified in these schools.

The morale of the SAPS, the guardians of our people’s peace, and especially those who defend the defenceless of our society, is of the utmost importance. In order to improve the morale and the level of service delivery to our people we have introduced, in our province, the MEC’s excellence awards for the best police station in the province. Police stations are judged on the level of service rendered, the availability of cubicles to take statements confidentially and the recruitment and utilisation of reserves, among other things. All the stations in our province are striving to be the best among the best. Surely, we can safely say that the awards have had a positive impact on the delivery and the morale of the SAPS members.

The empowerment and protection of women and children occupies the centre of our government programmes. An antirape strategy has been adopted and its implementation has started in our province. Victim-support centres are established at most of our stations where no such centres exist and arrangements have been made with health institutions for the attendance of victims.

Minister Mabandla, we would like to welcome the opening of the regional offices in Siyabuswa. We also hope that the Act on antiviolence against women and their children will assist women of our province, especially in the area called Tonga where there is so much unrest, victimisation, rape and beating of women.

Sivumelana nawe Ndvuna Balfour kutsi akukabaluleki kutsi sihlalise bantfu, mhlayimbe lekungakadzingeki kutsi bahlale emajele, loku lesesikubita ngekutsi, tikhumulo tekulungisa tigwegwe!

Siyavuma natsi kutsi labanye balabomake labeba imali lengaba nganga R89, mhlayimbe kubayeni babo nome etinganini tabo abakafaneli kutsi sebangaze bahlaliswe iminyaka lelishumi kuleto tindzawo. Sitsi ababuyiselwe emiphakatsini bese kutsi tsine njengemiphakatsi nemaprovinsi sibakusite kutsi babuyiselwe emiphakatsini yakubo. (Translation of Siswati paragraphs follows.)

[We concur with you, Minister Balfour, that it is not imperative to keep people in jail, or correctional centres as we call them, who should probably not be there.

We also agree that some of those women who stole money that amounted to R89, perhaps their husbands or lovers do not regard it as necessary that they be kept in those centres for ten years. We are saying they should be taken back to their communities, where we as community representatives and the provinces should help them to be taken back into their communities.]

Minister Nqakula and Minister Lekota, we still have a problem in Wakkerstroom and Ermelo and we would like to ask for your support in that you assist us at all times.

In that area we have got farmers who inherited all the members of the commandos and all the equipment that the commandos were using. They bought all the equipment, as well as the commandos themselves. So, the situation is still the same. We would like to request that you should assist us as a province to be able to fight the situation in that area.

We would like to assure you, Minister, that we have tried our best to build good relationships between SAPS and the communities in Mpumalanga. As a result we have also launched the cleaning campaign early this year. We started by cleaning those remote areas, the so-called tollgate areas, where our own people cannot pass and go to the other end of the villages. We have done our best and we hope that it is working. Our communities are supporting the SAPS, and we think that together we can fight crime or prevent crime.

Mayalana nekucolelwa kwalaba betibhamu, sifuna kubonga Ndvuna kutsi usisitile ngekutsi utesincedza kuleprovinsi yetfu, sasho sakwati nekubacela bantfu kutsi abaletse tibhamu tabo labatigcinile. (Translation of Siswati paragraph follows.)

[With regard to gun amnesty, we want to thank the Minister for the help extended to our province. We managed to request people to declare and bring back those guns they kept.]

We want to assure you that from this month we have brought in churches, ministers and pastors to come and help by preaching the relevant messages so that those criminals, and all those people who do not need the firearms, must bring their firearms to us. We hope that that campaign will really help us.

We also want to welcome the deployment of divisional commissioner Makhubela in our province. We hope that he will assist us in our endeavour to try and bring back all these firearms that are not necessary in our communities and those illegal firearms that are in the hands of our children, especially our youth in schools.

In conclusion, to the bad losers that Rian Malan spoke about, I say: Here is a tree rooted in African soil, nourished by the waters of the African rivers. Come! Let us sit under its shade and enjoy its fruits, and become with us leaves of the same branches and branches of the same tree. Be active participants in the building of South Africa that truly belongs to all who live in it. For the gift of 1994 requires that we do so.

Lastly, as Mpumalanga, we would like to support your Budget Vote, Minister, and hope that it will assist us and the SAPS to do what is best, to prevent crime and make sure that our people are safe and that our province is safe and secure.

I would like to thank you for your continued support, Minister, in our endeavour to try to fight crime in the province and ensure the safety and security of our province. Thank you very much, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Dr F J VAN HEERDEN: Mnr die Voorsitter, so onlangs soos Sondag word ek genader deur ’n jong mediese dokter in Bloemfontein wie tans haar gemeenskapsjaar doen, dr Van Ronge, en wie se pa baie ernstig beseer is in ’n motorongeluk. Hule boer by Zastron. Kort daarna is die verdagtes aangekeer, en komplimente daarvoor aan die polisie!

Een van die bekommerendswaardige dinge was dat een van die verdagtes, ’n sekere Michael Sekele, op parool uit was terwyl hierdie inbraak plaasgevind het, in die eerste plek, en in die tweede plek het hy aan sy parooloffisier te kenne gegee dat hy mnr Van Ronge, die dametjie se pa, baie ernstig gaan seermaak, aangesien hy ’n klaer was by ’n vorige geleentheid toe hy, Sekele, vir veediefstal gearresteer is.

Die toestand aan die Vrystaatse grens met Lesotho is werklik haglik. Terwyl die soldate in Desember en Januarie daar ontplooi was, was daar ’n groot verbetering, maar nadat die soldate weer in Januarie ontrek is, het die oorgrensmisdrywe weer eens plaasgevind.

Daar is ’n desperaatheid onder hierdie mense. Dit gaan nie net oor blanke boere nie; dit gaan ook oor swart boere. Ek wil net vir u enkele voorbeelde gee: daar is Mnr Kola, wat die voorsitter is van die Vrystaatse grondgebruikers. Hy is ook lid van die Ladybrand Kommando. Hy sê dat hy nie meer op sy plaas bly nie, maar dat hy deesdae in die dorp bly vanweë die onsekere situasie daar. Hy vra: Hoekom werk die veiligheidstelsel langs Suid-Afrika se grens met Botswana - die agb Minister het verwys na Botswana, Namibië en die Noord-Kaap waar grenspatrolies blykbaar baie goed opereer – maar dit werk nie op die Lesothogrens nie? Mnr Kola verwys verder daarna en na die nuwe strukture wat in die vooruitsig gestel word met die wegneem van die kommando’s.

Ek merk in die koerant dat die Wepener Kommando ook gaan verdwyn. Dit is baie na aan die Lesothogrens en dit veroorsaak groot kommer by die mense wat daar werksaam is.

Daar is nog twee boere, ook swart boere - ek laat die wit boere daar, anders sê u weer ons praat net vir die wit boere - Mnr Christiaan Phakela en Mnr Taolo Mukafula. Hulle het tussen hulle 45 beeste gehad; daarvan is 27 gesteel. Hulle het tussen hulle 56 skape gehad; daarvan is 47 gesteel.

Ons twyfel nie aan die opregtheid van die ministerie en van die regering om te probeer om hierdie mense te help nie, maar ek sal in my plig versuim as ek nie vandag onder u aandag bring die kommer wat daar heers, wat oor alle bevolkingsgroepe heen strek, ten opsigte van die veiligheidsituasie in Lesotho nie.Dit sal waardeer word indien die betrokke ministeries vir ons aandag daaraan kan gee. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Dr F J VAN HEERDEN: Mr Chairman, on Sunday I was approached by a young medical doctor in Bloemfontein, Dr Van Ronge, who is currently doing her community service year and whose father was seriously injured in a car accident. They are farming in Zastron. Shortly afterwards the suspects were arrested, and compliments to the police for that!

Firstly, one of the worrying aspects is that one of the suspects, a certain Michael Sekele, was out on parole when this burglary took place, and secondly, he informed his parole officer that he was going to seriously injure Mr Van Ronge, the young woman’s father, since he was a complainant on a previous occasion when he, Sekele, was arrested for stock-theft.

The situation on the border between the Free State and Lesotho is really precarious. There was a great improvement when the soldiers were deployed there in December and January, but after the soldiers were withdrawn again in January the cross-border offences took place once again.

There is a desperation among these people. This does not only concern white farmers; it also concerns black farmers. I just want to give you a few examples: there is Mr Kola who is the chairman of land-users in the Free State. He is also a member of the Ladybrand Commando. He says that he no longer stays on his farm, but that he is staying in town these days because of the precarious situation there. He is asking: Why does the security system work along the border between South Africa and Botswana – the hon Minister referred to Botswana, Namibia and the Northern Cape where the border patrols, apparently are functioning very well – but it is not working on the Lesotho border? Mr Kola continues to refer to it and to the new structure that is envisaged with the abolishment of the commandos.

I read in the newspaper that the Wepener Commando is also going to be taken away. This is very close to the Lesotho border and it is a cause for great concern for the people who are operating there.

There are two other farmers, also black farmers – I am excluding the white farmers otherwise you will say once again that we are only speaking on behalf of the white farmers – Mr Christiaan Phakela and Mr Taolo Mukafula who between the two of them had 45 cattle, of which 27 were stolen. Between the two of them they had 56 sheep, of which 47 were stolen.

We do not doubt the sincerity of the Ministry and the government to try and help these people, but I will be neglecting my duty if I do not bring to your attention today the concern that prevails, amongst all population groups, about the situation with regard to safety in Lesotho. We will appreciate it if the relevant Ministries could pay attention to this. I thank you.]

Rre A J L MOSEKI: Modulasetulo wa Ntlo e e tlotlegang, Matona a rona a puso ya rona, Batlatsa-Ditona, badiredipuso ba Lefapha la Tshireletso le botlhe ba ba re laleditseng go tla go reetsa gore Lefapha la Tshireletso la reng ka Tekanyetsokabo. Tla re tseye nako e pele re re, mo dingwageng di le 10 tse di fetileng, Lefapha la Tshireletso le simolotse leeto. (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)

[Mr A L MOSEKI: The Chairperson of this august House, Ministers of our government, Deputy Ministers, public servants of the Department of Safety and Security and all those whom we have invited to come and listen to the budget of the Department of Safety and Security. Let us take this opportunity to say that in the past 10 years the Department of Safety and Security undertook a journey.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, order, hon member! Could we just ask the interpreters to interpret, please? There is no interpretation. Is it back now? Continue, Mr Moseki.

Rre A L MOSEKI: Leeto le le simolotsweng ke Lefapha la Tshireletso le simolotse ka gonne sa ntlha, re kopanya matsholo a a neng a farologane ka dikgaolo tsa dipusoselegae le ya Aforika Borwa wa kgethololo. Fa re lebelela kwa morago gore go tloga ka nako eo go fitlha jaanong, go diragetseng? Re ntse re reeditse Tona a bua ka tswelelopele e e diragetseng. Re motlotlo gore mo nakong e re leng mo go yona, re na le sesole sa Aforika Borwa se se sa tlhaoleng ka mmala.

Re na le sesole sa Aforika Borwa se se amogelwang ke lefatshe ka bophara ka karolo e se e tshamekang mo lefatsheng. Re na le sesole se se nang le maitsholo a a amogelesegang mo lefatsheng. Ka jalo, re batla go tsaya nako e, go leboga Tona, Tlhogo ya badiri kgotsa tlhogo ya tshireletso le badirammogo gore ba bo ba dirile tiro e e maatlametlo e.

Fa re leba gore dikgwetlho tse re lebaneng le tsona mo nakong e ke dife, bogolo tsa lefapha, selo sa ntlha, le fa re dumela gore go na le tswelelopele, re tshwanetse go dumela gore go na le go le gontsi go go tshwanetseng go diragala. Tse di tshwanetseng go diragala gore re kgone go fenya ntwa e gotlhelele, ke go tswelela go lwantsha tlhaolele mo gare ga matsholo a tshireletso. Go na le ditiragalo tse di diragetseng mo sesoleng sa rona. E ngwe e sa tswa go tlhagiswa ke Motlatsa-Tona jaanong, ya dipolaano mo mafelong a a rileng. Go na le bothata jwa gore, mind-set, jaaka dibui tse di fetileng di ntse di bua ka mind-set, go sa ntse go bontsha gore go na le bothata jwa go fetola ditlhaloganyo tsa bao ba katisitsweng ke puso ya tlhaolele. Go thata gore ba amogele tsamaiso e e leng teng gona jaanong. Ke kgwetlho e e tseneletseng.

Kgwetlho e nngwe e e tseneletseng ke gore re tseye karolo mo seraleng sa lefatshe jaanong. Sekai ke dikarolo tse re ditsayang kwa Burundi, Democratic Republic of Congo le mafelo a mangwe. Fa re le batsayakarolo mo seraleng se se ntseng jaana, go nna botlhokwa gore re nne le kitso e e tla re kgontshang go lepalepana le dikgwetlho tsa lefatshe. Kitso eo e tla dira gore masole a rona a kgone go dirisa dibetsa kgotsa didiriswa tsa segompieno tsa thekenoloji.

Ba se ke ba nna le kitso eo fela mme ba nne le dibetsa kgotsa didiriswa tseo gore e tle e re fa re tsenelelwa ke ba ba sa rateng kagiso, ba ba ipitsang bagaka ba demokerasi mo lefatsheng, re kgone go itshireletsa le go sireletsa lefatshe la rona. Dilo tse di botlhokwa thata, ga re a tshwanela go di tsaya botlhofo ka gore Aforika Borwa jaaka demokerasi e e golang, e bontsha gore e na le thotloetso e ntsi thata mo lefatsheng. Fa Aforika Borwa e nna le thotloetso e ntseng jalo mo lefatsheng, go raya gore ba ba nang le mona, ba ba sa batleng go re bona re tswelelapele, ba simolola go re bona re le matshosetsi mo go bona. Ba ka dirisa mokgwa ofe kgotsa ofe go tlisa tlhakatlhakano le go re senyeletsa kagiso e re tshelang mo go yona. Ke ka moo masole a rona a tshwanetseng go nna malala a laotswe. Malala a laotswe ka kitso ya bona, malala a laotswe ka didiriswa tsa bona gore eng kgotsa eng se se tshosetsang Aforika Borwa, re kgone go lepalepana le sona.

Re ne re reeditse Tona a bua sentle le lefapha fa le ne le kopane le rona, go na le ntlha ya botlhokwa e re ratang go e tlhagisa e e leng gore go ya ka rona go aga sesole se se nonofileng le setšhaba se se itekanetseng, ga re a tshwanela gore re e tlodise matlho. Fa re reeditse lefapha le bua, ga le a bua ka kokwanatlhoko gore re thusa jang masole a rona. Ke ne ke reeditse Tona fa a bua. O buile ka dikgwetlho tsotlhe mme ke dumalana le ena. Mo ntlheng e, go botlhokwa thata gore gangwe le gape re e tlhagise gore masole a rona, matsholo a rona le mephato ya rona e tle e itse gore re a e kgatlhegela. Ba itse gore ga re kgatlhegele fela ditiro tsa bona tse dintle tse ba di dirang mme re kgatlhegela le boitekanelo jwa bona gore ba kgone go dira tiro ya bona ka manontlhotlho.

Mo dikgwetlhong tsotlhe tse ke buileng ka tsona, maitlhomo ga se gore re reye lefapha re re ga le a dira sepe, lefapha le dirile. Re rata gore fa lefapha le tswelela go dira jaaka le dira, ntlhakgolo e re buisanang ka yona gompieno ya Tekanyetsokabo ke sediriswa se se botlhokwa thata. Se kgona go tiisa kgotsa go thusa sesole sa rona go lepalepana le tsotlhe tse re buang ka tsona.

Tekanyetsokabo e, re rata gore e dirisiwe. Fa e dirisiwe ke lefapha, e seke ya bonwa ke ope yo nang le boferefere mo tlhaloganyong ya gagwe. Ka nako nngwe o tla utlwa ba bua ba re, puso ya Aforika Borwa, bogolo lefapha le, le dirisa madi go reka dibetsa tse di seng botlhokwa. Mo go rona, dibetsa tsotlhe di botlhokwa. Komiti e e eteletsweng pele ke Kgosi Mokoena e batla go netefatsa gore dipuo tsotlhe tse di senang bokao le kgatlhego mo tsamaisong ya lefatshe la rona, ga di na di re tsikinya mo kemonokeng e re tla go e nayang.

Kwa bofelong, re utlwile Tona a bua gore ``Gebuza’’ Siphiwe Nyanda o a tsamaya. Tla re tseye tšhono e re re moeteledipele yo ga se moeteledipele yo o itlhagetseng fela ka nako ya fa go phuthulogile go le monate. Moeteledipele yo re buang ka ena yo ke kumo ya borukhutlhi . . . [Nako e fedile.] [Legofi.] (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)

[Mr A L MOSEKI: The journey that was started by the Department of Safety and Security was undertaken because we are, firstly, integrating departments that were differentiated according to Bantustans and apartheid South Africa. As we look back from that time until today, we try to figure out what happened. We have been listening to the Minister talking about progress made. We are proud at this time to have a South African Defence Force that does not discriminate on race.

We have a South African Defence Force which is accepted by the world at large because of the role it plays. We have a well-behaved defence force accepted by the world. Therefore, we would like to take this time to thank the Minister, the head of the employees, the Department and our colleagues for a job well done.

Although we acknowledge the progress made, when we look at the challenges this time, especially those faced by the department, we have to accept that still more needs to be done. In order to ensure that we triumph over this, we should continue to fight racial discrimination within the Defence Force.

There are incidents that took place in our Defence Force. The Deputy Minister, with regard to the killings in certain areas, has just highlighted one. There is a problem with the mindset, as other speakers have indicated, which shows that there is still a problem in changing the mindset of those who were trained by the apartheid government. It is difficult for them to accept the administration put in place now. This is a serious challenge.

Another serious challenge is the fact that we participate in the world on the centre stage, for example the role we played in Burundi, the Democratic Republic of Congo and other places. As role-players on the centre stage now, it is important that we have the knowledge that will assist us to face the world challenges. That knowledge will enable the Defence Force to use their weapons or the latest technological weaponry.

They should not only have that knowledge but also weapons or tools so that we protect ourselves and our land against those who do not like peace and those who call themselves heroes of democracy in the world. We should not take lightly things that are important, because South Africa has a growing democracy which has a great influence in the world.

When South Africa has such an influence in the world, it implies that those who are jealous and do not want to see us making progress, start to feel threatened by us. They may use whatever means to create crises and destroy the peace we have. That is why our Defence Force always has to be prepared for anything. They should always be ready with their weapons so that we would be able to deal with any threat to South Africa.

We listened to the Minister as he talked to the department when it met with us. There is one important thing which we would like to raise and which we should not lose sight of, and that is of building a strong Defence Force and a healthy nation. As we listened to the department we did not hear it talking about HIV and how it helps the members of the Defence Force. I agree with the Minister about the challenges he talked about. It is very important that we raise this issue more often so that members of our Defence Force, the battalion and commandos, know that we are interested in them. They should know that we are not only interested in their service, but also in their health which enables them to do their work with excellence. With regard to the challenges I spoke about, the objective was not to tell the department to do something, because we believe it has done well. We would like the department to continue with what it has been doing. The main issue we are discussing here today is the budget, which is an important tool to use. It can strengthen or help our Defence Force to face all the things we are talking about.

We would like to encourage the spending of this budget. When the department spends its budget anyone who has a deceitful mind should not see it. Sometimes you will hear comments made about the South African government, especially that this department is using money to buy unnecessary weaponry. To us, all weapons are important. The committee chaired by Chief Mokoena wants to ascertain whether all these meaningless statements, which do not have an interest in the running of our country, are not going to discourage us from giving our support.

In conclusion, we heard the Minister say that “Gebuza” Siphiwe Nyanda is leaving. We would like to take this opportunity to say to this leader that he is not a leader who just appeared at a time when we were enjoying ourselves. The leader we are talking about is a destroyer of terrorism. [Time expired.] [Applause.]]

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you, Chairperson. Just a few things. The accolades that you gave us as the JCPS are due to the chairperson of the JCPS who works very hard in pulling us together, namely, the Minister of Safety and Security. We really appreciate that. [Applause.]

Just a few things since I only have ten minutes. We will spend about R80 million in most of our prisons around the country with the installation of new technology such as CCTV cameras, biometric readers, scanning devices and making sure that we improve the safety. We have just approved R80 million and our national security plan, and minimum-security standards for all correctional centres. We will start with 65 correctional centres and make sure that we beef up our security.

Secondly, we have parole boards that are brand new. The only province for which I have not signed the document for the appointment of the chairpersons of parole boards is the Western Cape. The members of these parole boards come from the community and I would love to meet with all of them, just to give them marching orders and tell them what to do to assist us with the issue of overcrowding.

Those parole boards are going to assist us quite a lot. That is why we wanted the community to get involved. I am quite happy with the way that things are going. I only need to push the Western Cape now to finalise its own chairpersons. All other provinces have finalised it and everything is in place.

The third issue is that of providing inmates with skills. One of the best examples that we have is in the case of George. Those who live near the George correctional centre, it is an excellent example of inmates acquiring skills that can be used when seeking employment upon their release. With the assistance and guidance of trained artisans, our inmates renovated huge sections of their prison themselves. They have built it themselves. It is not only in George but also in other areas. They are building a facility for themselves that lends itself to effective unit management and to their rehabilitation programmes.

There is a lot of movement in terms of the provision of skills. The one other thing is the issue that Correctional Services have for a long time been the preserve of males, in terms of its employment policies and practices. We have taken deliberate actions to turn this around and to date the department has raised the number of female officials to 7 372, compared to the 4 000 officials that we had in 1995. We have really taken great strides. [Applause.]

At senior management level this has also changed significantly with 33 female correctional officials filling top positions. We are finalising our policy document in this regard to ensure that we take gender relations and equity issues into the mainstream of our policy processes.

A lot of members mentioned a number of things and I want to thank them for the time that they have taken to even go to correctional centres and see for themselves. Maybe more members, particularly from the DA, should do so and if they want to come to correctional centres with me, they should please let me know. The only thing is that I might be tempted to lock you up, if you speak too much, and leave you there! [Laughter.]

But if you want to, please feel free to accompany me any time I visit these centres. I will not leave you there. Don’t worry. I will make sure that you are out of there. You might make a lot of noise and my prisoners might want to run away from you. I don’t want that to happen either. That is a security risk. Take time in your constituency and visit these prisons and make sure that you understand when we talk about overcrowding, lack of space and everything else.

The one other thing that I want to talk about, which is my plea now, is the issue of pardons and remissions. I really want to make a plea to everybody, to the communities and to the families of those offenders who will come out. I will announce these remissions next week. I need all the support from my cluster. I know I have all the support from my cluster. I need support from communities and families of the people who are going to be affected by these remissions.

Let us give these people a second chance. They are human beings. They have created havoc in the communities. Some of them have committed serious crimes, but those that have been touched by this, please let us give them a second chance. They deserve that. They have done us a disfavour by their deeds but again we will not be irresponsible and just release all those who have committed, as Mr Ngcakula will call it, contact crimes; those who have really harmed and murdered. We will not touch them. There are those who are not risks to society. I am pleading for that and I am not pleading for one party. I am pleading for everybody.

To the inmates, and I am sure this time they have been told that their Minister is speaking and that they should watch him on television – yes, some of them do have televisions – it is an opportunity that they should take. To them I would like to say that they should use this opportunity productively. They should not disappoint themselves when they get the opportunity to go out. They should give themselves a second chance. There are the victims of some of them and I am pleading with them as well, even though I know that it hurts: Please, find it in yourselves to forgive and not to forget those family members who were touched by this crime. Give them a second chance, as well.

To my staff members out there: We have checked on their state of readiness for when we will do this. We will do it over a period of ten weeks. We will not just open the doors like with the bulls of Pamplona.

That is one thing that I want to do before I die. I want to go and run with the bulls in Pamplona - run for the hell of it out in front of them. Johnny, join me. [Interjections.] The Deputy Minister of Justice will join me. I will check with the Deputy Minister of Defence. [Interjections.]

We are going to be responsible. We will check the state of readiness of my members of staff and I think all of us are bracing ourselves to be able to do this. We want to do it as humanely as possible so that we give those whom deserve it, their second chance, particularly women and young children in prison, or the aged who are in prison, or some of those who are medically unfit to be in prison.

We are going to look at all those areas. I can assure you, we do not have a magic wand or a guarantee. Neither are we naive not to know that some of them might be pushed to the limits to again do things that they are not supposed to do. We are not naive. There are also those people within our correctional centres who will never be rehabilitated. We are not naive. We accept it. There are those who have committed crimes of need, particularly women who have stolen one or two things, for example, watermelons to feed their children. And those who were trying to sort out something and it went wrong. We need to give them a chance. I can assure the community and the members here that we will be responsible in dealing with this.

Next week we will be making that announcement and I know that my inmates all over the country will watch this, because each and every one of them, I hope, wants to go home. Maybe there will be those who will have no homes to go to. The normal parole rules will apply. We will apply parole rules and they will be under community paroling, where they report their whereabouts.

I would want to get the members and everybody else to support this so that we can show that we are a humane and caring government. We are a humane and caring society. We punish when there is a need to punish, but when we see that there is a need now to welcome people back and reintegrate them into society that is what we are going to do.

We are also saying to the offenders: If you do anything silly when you get out, you are actually putting the chances of other people in jeopardy; you are really messing everybody else’s chances up and we will arrest you and put you back right where you belong. That is the chance that we are taking with them, when we give them a second chance. We are a caring and humane government. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Hon Chairperson, hon Ministers, hon Deputy Ministers, ladies and gentlemen, comrades and friends, firstly, let me thank everyone who participated in this debate and particularly those who raised issues around the administration of justice.

I can promise you that we have taken notes on all the issues – the Minister, the officials and I - and that we will deal with all of them. Obviously, in my response I can only deal with a few issues, but be assured that we will look at all of them. We hope the committee will interact further with the department to make sure that these matters are dealt with.

I particularly want to thank the chairperson, the hon Kgoshi, for his hard work, and also for his very interesting analysis of the Ministers being little “Everready” Ministers. I conjured up in my mind those little pink men or women with the little battery who walk around. Maybe as this cluster we should think about taking that as our motto – the little pink man with the Eveready battery.

When we have debates like this that deal with the criminal justice system it reminds one again of how complex this whole area of work is where this cluster is involved – how it affects vast parts of our society and also how fragmented it is; how many departments deal with the criminal justice system.

You have the whole Police Service and then, on the other side of the spectrum, you have the whole prison services within the criminal justice system. Then you have the whole prosecuting authority that deals with prosecutions. Then you have a vast part of the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development that deals with this. You have parts of Social Development, of Education and of Health that interact and are part of this.

If you want to solve the problems in the criminal justice system, it would be very foolish of any person to think that tinkering with one little area will solve your problem. For the criminal justice system to really work effectively and work well, you need to look at it holistically and in an integrated manner.

If we give more policemen to the Minister of Safety and Security, it means more people are going to get arrested. It means we need more prosecutors. It means we need more courts, more judges, more magistrates, etc, etc, and more prisons or alternatives. So, we must be very careful with the solutions we come up with. It is only since we have been able to work in an integrated way that we have realised this and started working, and not by creating more problems in another department, because you have now been able to solve something in your department.

The only time we have solutions and real solutions, and solutions that we can sustain, is when we have solutions that actually fit into all the departments. That is why I think we should be careful about some of the inputs that have been made here. I think the hon Loe, for example, made quite a good input. We all know that there are weaknesses in the criminal justice system and that service delivery is not always what it should be.

The problem is when you try to take anecdotes and try to generalise them into being the reality. That is the problem. I think it is very good that we should deal with those, and we should deal with individual cases in which there isn’t proper service delivery. But what we shouldn’t do is project that to be the reality of this country, because what you are doing is, you are not just playing politics, you’re denigrating and belittling the role of all those who are playing a good role in the system. That is what you are doing.

There are thousands and thousands of people in the justice department. There are thousands and thousands of people that go to work every day, that work in very difficult situations, and 95% to 99%, to 100% of our courts function every single day.

Of course, they will function to different degrees. Some of them will function very well, and some of them have some dysfunctions, but they function every day and those people go to work, and they do their work, and so also in each department.

We should be careful not to be like newspapers. I drive to work in the morning and see a headline saying “Justice system collapses”, and I think: What has the Minister done now? I mean, the justice system has just collapsed. [Laughter.] But when I read the newspaper it’s about one court case in one little part of the country where bail was given to someone who people thought shouldn’t be given bail, and now the justice system has collapsed! That’s the headline. [Laughter.]

That is what we should be careful of. We should try to find the mistakes and problems and try to rectify them. But we should realise that this is a very complex system in which a lot of integration has to take place, and in which there has to be a lot of synergy to solve these problems. For all those people who do make the system work every day we as government, of course, thank them very much. We know that this is under difficult and trying circumstances. [Applause.] Although we will keep on making sure that they work better and better, we will not denigrate and not belittle the work that they do every single day to make it work.

Let me just mention, for example, hon Loe, that if you really want to know things about the maintenance system, we have people for you here - Mr Simon Jiyane is sitting there. You can actually go and talk to them, and we encourage people to go and talk to the department.

You will actually find that we are trying to look at amazing things in terms of how to change things around maintenance. You are right. Why would we be inclined to let women sit for hours and hours in queues trying to get maintenance to try to make a living, and let them suffer more and be traumatised. We don’t want to do that. No one wants to do that.

The problem is when you say, “Nothing is being done”. That is the problem. This is because we have sat down and we have started pilot projects in different places. Go to Johannesburg court. I ask anyone to go there and see how that system works there now. We are hoping to be able to roll that out.

You mentioned the toll-free number. The problem with the toll-free number at the moment is where we come from. We had a manual system. Each little court is a little island in itself. They sit there with little cards and, if money is paid in, they write on the card. The problem is that you can’t phone somewhere and say, “Is my money there”? because there is no central data system in the justice system in order to be able to do that.

However, what we are doing is using technology. For example, we have tried to introduce an SMS system in that as soon as the money comes in, we SMS. Of course that, again, is just for the rich and the more wealthy, because most people don’t have phones to SMS. But we try all the time to make sure things work better and we use what we can. So, really, I suggest that you have a chat with the department and see what we are trying to do in this area.

Around the issue of transformation, of course that is the big word in this country. If you have 20 people, you will have 50 opinions on what transformation is, of course. Everyone understands it completely differently. We all see it through the rose-coloured spectacles that we wear.

You, of course, look at transformation in terms of the baggage you carry with you. That is the problem we have in this country, but transformation is simple. People must stop making a big thing of it. Firstly, there was a terrible system called apartheid - for those who don’t understand. [Laughter.] We got rid of it. Then we passed a nice Constitution and a whole lot of policies with it. Now, what we want to do is to take that old system and change it in terms of that Constitution so that it becomes something else. It’s simple. That’s all. That’s all we want to do. [Applause.]

We don’t want to go outside the Constitution. We don’t want to draft a new Constitution. We don’t want to be complicated about this. What we all agreed about in that Constitution we want to make a reality. That is what transformation is.

For example, when it comes to justice people will say, “Justice, oh it’s about representivity”. Of course representivity is very important, as is the whole issue of diversity and making sure that our judiciary reflects that diversity. But that is not transformation on its own. When we talk about transformation, it’s the whole system. It’s the way it functions. It’s the way it’s structured. It’s the procedures we use in court, and it is the representivity. It is a whole lot of things. The whole system is just dysfunctional and doesn’t work properly.

If you look at the management systems in our courts and so on, they come from before Noah’s Ark - just before that they were introduced. [Laughter.] These things are so outdated that they aren’t used anywhere. In fact, you can’t get them in books anymore they are so old. That is the system with which we administer this country and in terms of the courts and so on. Those things must be changed. They have nothing to do with the race of the person, but with the system that has to be changed.

So, transformation is really to take this whole justice system, all aspects of it, and change it in terms of the Constitution until we get the new. If people ask: For how long will we transform? We will do it until we have that new system in line with the Constitution. [Laughter.] That is how long it will take.

Of course we have much less time. Under apartheid they had 350 years. We are not going to wait that long, and not do it for that long. But we will definitely make sure that we get to that point, and it will go on until then. That is why I ask people about these six Bills we’re talking about. They are available.

Sometimes when you read about them, you think that it is as if a few of us just sat in a corner one day and quickly drafted these Bills, then just suddenly unleashed them on South Africa, trying to sneak them through Parliament without anybody seeing - and that we are going to get rid of the judiciary and undermine them, and all those things.

These Bills have been around for years and years. Five of the Bills have come through this Parliament; are in this Parliament. The disciplinary Bills were introduced as part of the Judicial Officers’ Bill in 2001 already. I don’t know how many drafts we have done and sent back, and we have come back and discussed them. The media have recorded them, and so on.

The same thing is the case with the superior court and the constitutional amendment that goes with that. They were introduced in 2003 in this Parliament. We have been processing them since then. Everyone has been participating - all the opposition parties - and not a single opposition party that has been participating in them has ever raised it that we were trying to undermine the independence of the judiciary with those pieces of legislation.

I want to say categorically that we are not in the manner and are not in the business of drafting legislation that is unconstitutional. Just tell me how it will help us. If we pass a Bill today that is unconstitutional, or that undermines the independence of the judiciary, who actually decides on that legislation? Not us. [Laughter.] Do I decide whether it is constitutional or not? It’s going to go to the courts and they will decide whether it’s constitutional or not. [Laughter.] So, why would I pass something that I know is unconstitutional, and which I know is going to get thrown out? [Laughter.] I wonder just how stupid one can be.

So, with regard to the processes that we have going on, look at the documentation. We have been going through these processes. The only new one is the Bill that deals with the training. That is the new Bill that still has to go through all its processes. The rest of them have been around for ages and ages. We drafted them carefully over many, many years in some instances and, in another instances, over at least one and a half years. We made sure that they did not transgress the Constitution, that they did not undermine the separation of powers, that they did not undermine the independence of the judiciary, and that they complied with our international obligations, particularly the Latimer House Principles and the Latimer House Guidelines.

We want to make it very clear that there is no person that can say that legislation can’t be made better. Of course it can be made better. Each of us can sit down and always find a way of drafting something better, but the intentions and the principles that we have put into these are clearly there to try to enhance and transform in order to make this system work better. They have nothing to do with trying to undermine anything, or with undermining any system, particularly if that legislation would be overturned in the courts and we would be back to square one again. So we want to make that very, very clear.

The MEC from the Western Cape raised the issue of criticism by judges of the SAPS. Obviously, if you raise that issue with us we will raise it in the right forum and that would be the JSC. The JSC should deal with complaints – it is not the Minister that will deal with them. Or, when we pass this legislation that deals with disciplinary matters, there clearly will be a mechanism.

The problem at the moment is that there is no mechanism in this country to deal with discipline. The only thing the Constitution says is if the persons are guilty of gross misconduct, incapacity and I can’t remember the third grounds, then you can introduce impeachment procedures. However, if it is something less than impeachment, there is no procedure until we pass this legislation. We will try to deal with those.

I think that sometimes we need to make sure in these court cases also that we put all the evidence before the courts. If there is the possibility of credibility findings against persons, we must try to give that information. Sometime the courts don’t have that information available, and it is difficult for them to know how the investigation went, and so on. I think we should try to do something about that.

On the issue that baba Mzizi raised around the IFP amnesty, in the department we are trying to look at that matter again to see what it is you have raised and so on, and we will get back to you. But I would just like to say, baba, that a victims’ fund is not a panacea, the solution. If you look around the world there are very few victims’ funds that have been set up. When they have been set up, they have a very limited scope. They usually just pay some of the expenses that some victims have incurred.

The idea that this country will be able to set up a victims’ fund that is going to be able to pay all victims of whatever happened to them and particularly that they are going to get vast sums of money to be able to restart their lives and so on, is, clearly, not something that exists. It doesn’t exist here. It doesn’t exist anywhere else in the world. That is why you should read the Law Reform Commission Report as it is raising those issues.

The other problem with those systems is that they usually introduce a special tax to be able to fund those funds. This is not something you just take out of your budget. We still need to finalise what our views are on a victims’ fund even though the Law Commission has said that, baba. The problem is that this is not the panacea which people are making it out to be, and nowhere in the world is it that kind of panacea. You would remember that we studied the fund in Minnesota, and that it had a very limited role. Then, I think, the issues raised by . . . [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Deputy Minister, your time has expired. Do you want to finalise? Just wrap up quickly. I’ll give you another minute.

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I just want to say thank you so much. [Laughter.] [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Thank you very much, Chairperson. By the way, how much time do I have?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Ten minutes.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Ten minutes . . .

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: . . . [Inaudible.] . . . 15 minutes.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Fifteen minutes, hon Lekota, that is what I have. [Laughter.] And I’m using all 15 those minutes. [Laughter.] The first thing I want to do in response to the debate is to express appreciation to a number of people.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, Minister! There is a point of order.

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: I would like to advise the hon Minister that we have just received an SMS from his wife, who needs him home in about 10 minutes’ time. [Laughter.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That is not a point of order. Continue, hon Minister. [Laughter.]

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: One of the people I would like to express appreciation to is the Minister of Defence for the wonderful news he has just conveyed, which makes me even stronger. [Laughter.]

In the first instance, I want to express appreciation to our communities and the many law-abiding South Africans, the very peace-loving citizens of our country, who continue to work with the police. It is these people and these communities that give us the information we require in order for us to mount successful investigations into the crime that we are dealing with.

Secondly, I also want to record my appreciation of the departments that we work with; and thank you very much, Chairperson, for the wonderful words of encouragement you have conveyed to us in respect of how we are working as this cluster. This type of working together, arising out of better co- ordination, has yielded the kinds of results we can be proud of. It has made the integrated criminal justice system a system that is beginning to grapple with the issues and the very many difficult situations that we deal with.

I also want to mention, as I express appreciation, civil society, particularly the community-based organisations with which we work, the unions that are active within the SA Police Service, the community police forums and the community safety forums that are working with us, as well as the religious sector with which, together with the religious leaders, with whom we are involved, in the first instance in programmes that relate to the moral regeneration campaign of our country.

I also want to mention Business Against Crime SA, which is also working very well with the police and which has made available resources in order for us to advance the cause for safety and security in our country.

I also must mention Parliament, where we have the parliamentary portfolio committees and where we have, for instance in our case, the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security and the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs.

But, of course, I must take this opportunity to call for better collaboration and I want to raise, once more, an issue that I raised in this House a while back, and that is the responsibility we have as public representatives to go out and mobilise our people for the good causes that stem from the kind of Constitution we have. But particularly so, we need to teach our people about what is available in terms of that Constitution to every citizen of our land. And, with respect to policing I would want members of this House to go out and teach the people about what is available in regard to all of the things that were mentioned here - the weaknesses that were referred to – because under my Ministry there are the following structures.

The first one, which deals with policy violations, is the Secretariat for Safety and Security. So, if you feel that the police are not doing their work in keeping, in the first instance, with the Constitution and, secondly, the South African Police Service Act, you have to report to the Secretariat for Safety and Security. This is because their responsibility is indeed to monitor that the Police Service is not violating the policy formulations of the Ministry.

Secondly, there is the Independent Complaints Directorate that monitors and investigates cases of misconduct against the police. So the things that were being mentioned here that relate to misconduct on the part of the police ought to be reported to that structure. On questions of general policy, we can report to the community policing forums themselves, who will take these matters forward. If there is no joy at all with respect to all of these levels at which we can complain, come directly to the Minister. And if there is no joy even with respect to the Minister, we also have the Public Protector. Go to the Public Protector, and say, “All of these people are not attending to the problems that I have”. These are structures that were put together in terms of our own deliberations and decisions in Parliament. Let’s teach our people to use those structures.

There is no lawlessness in South Africa. All the law-enforcement structures enforce the law in keeping with our own legislation, in keeping with our own Constitution. With respect to peace and security, we have used that as a guiding light to ensure that there is peace and stability in our own country. However, we have also made available our experiences to assist the rest of the African continent. We have used that block of people as a springboard to argue our case even on international platforms. In fact, the United Nations views the Republic of South Africa as a leader in the prevention and combating of crime on the continent.

Thanks, Johnny, for dealing with the matters that the hon Loe raised. Now, I want to ask her to at least do one small thing for us with regard to what she was talking about – the police who violated the human rights of a particular person - take this matter forward, please. Assist that person to take it forward in terms of the Constitution. Section 35 of the Constitution clearly defines how the police must conduct themselves when they have arrested a suspect. Take it forward. I am saying this as a challenge to you, because many are the occasions on which people come to platforms like this and make all manner of wild allegations. We want to test this; so let’s take it forward.

Utilise, in particular, this section for us to deal with that matter. I am not going to talk about the whingeing and complaining, because, please, hon Deputy Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development, the DA can only do that. They can only whinge and complain. There is nothing else they know. [Laughter.]

Thank you very much, Deputy Minister, for dealing with the matter of transformation. Indeed, as you so aptly said, people define transformation according to their own whims and fancies. There is so much that is being said about transformation.

At one level people will tell you that we need to get the bureaucracy to work, as the hon Loe was saying. That is transformation because we are not playing here with a situation in which you replace one person with another. We are changing mind-sets. That’s part and parcel of transformation, and it must result in people doing their work and doing it well. That is transformation.

But added to that there must necessarily be a process in which we elevate some of the people who were disadvantaged in the past. We must do this. We are doing it in the police. Some of the people we have brought into the Police Service by lateral entry. Others we have promoted, particularly women. The entire contingent of the SA Police Service is 26% women. We would say that this is quite a low percentage. It is low. We want more women to join the service. But we are the only police organisation in the world that has gone beyond 20% in terms of female representation. [Applause.] The next highest is Switzerland, but the percentage of women there is 16%, vis-à-vis the entire police service in that country.

Somebody mentioned the traumatic experiences of the police and indeed many of them, in fact, the great majority of any police persons who do functional policing, must have come across experiences like the following, experiences that relate to violence and death. During the course of their investigations they come across bullet-riddled bodies. Some of these bodies have been hacked with axes, or there are several stab wounds on those bodies. At times, these people are forced to scrape people’s brains off the ground - bashed by using blunt instruments; at times they have been run over by motor vehicles; and, on other occasions, they have had their heads blown off by gunmen.

Now, if you have people experiencing violence and death as closely as that, they will be affected by it. Others are going through personal traumas - relationships that have gone awry; hardships at home particularly because of economic problems; and, the sum total, as the hon Grinker was saying, may be low self-esteem arising out of all of these things.

But what we are doing about it is the question. In the police we have established a section that is called the employee assistance programme, comprising social workers, psychologists and religious workers. All of them counsel these people I have referred to, including those who may be suffering from debilitating diseases. They counsel them to ensure that they can live with the traumas that we have referred to.

I have two last points - I have not even exhausted five minutes, Minister of Defence. I have two last points. [Laughter.] Both the hon Mzizi . . . Where is he? There he is. Both the hon Mzizi and the hon Grinker mentioned the issue of the community policing forums. There are problems there. We all admit that. We are discussing how we can get out of that situation, particularly because we must admit that we made a mistake by creating a structure and putting that structure under the police, when that structure was supposed to monitor the police.

What does putting community policing forums under the police mean? It means that we ask the police to provide the wherewithal for that structure to function. It was a bad decision that we made. We have to look at how, then, we rectify this particular problem. However, in terms of the law, our rules and regulations, we cannot make allocations to the CPFs, unfortunately.

The hon Van Heerden and the hon Pule mentioned, albeit fleetingly, the issue of commandos. I don’t want to deal with that issue. The issue of commandos is clear. I stood here a few weeks ago and spoke about these commandos. The case has not changed. When you train as a soldier, you are being trained to kill people. You are not being trained to kill game. You are trained to kill people - how you must kill people. What we want to do is to provide a programme of crime prevention and combating, and we want to do this by recruiting people who will become part of our police reservist system.

It is a new system; we have enhanced the old system. This will include those members of the current commandos who have the necessary capacity. I made a promise in this House that we were not going to lose the experience of such people. They will be incorporated into that structure and will continue to do the work that they have been doing. There are other things that people will like to talk about that are relevant to the commandos. They’ll tell you many bad stories in Limpopo, about the commandos, in Mpumalanga, in KwaZulu-Natal and in other areas of our country. Now, the last point about this was the matter the hon Pule raised.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Minister, you can sum up. Your time has expired.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: In the Ermelo area there are commandos that have now been taken over by the farmers there to help them with rural safety, and those farmers have also taken over the equipment that those commandos were using. That matter the Minister of Defence will have to address, because the equipment the commandos were using was SA National Defence Force equipment. So, we will have to respond to that. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Chairperson, that is a rather very long time. I will not insist on finishing it. I am allowed to speak for that time, but I don’t think I am compelled to speak for eight minutes. [Laughter.] First of all, sir, we were addressing the House today on the budget for this year, which meant we had to tell you that with the money we have this year these are the problems we are going to deal with. Since we addressed the HIV and Aids issues and issues like that last year, there will be no point in talking about them; they were already addressed.

Nevertheless, I may just say that the question of HIV and Aids is addressed in the National Defence Force. As some of you may know, we have a project called Masibambisane, which is a collaboration between us and those who are ill and their families. We also have a second project, which is externally financed and called the Phedisa Project, the Give Life Project. And then of course the home-based care, and so on. I just want to allay the fears of those who felt that maybe we didn’t address this issue. It was not the subject of the budget.

Secondly, I would like to assure hon Moseki that as you are all aware there has been intense debate on the National Defence Force acquiring new equipment and all of that, but as I said in this speech today we are also intensifying training and making sure that we have the requisite numbers of personnel to deal with this equipment, to use and to look after it, etc.

It must not be understood that when we say that peace-support operations have become to the top priority of the work we are doing today that we have changed the mandate, which Parliament has given us. The mandate Parliament has given the National Defence Force is that we must always produce and maintain forces to be available and ready to defend the country whenever and if the need were to arise. That is our primary task.

What we are doing is to increase the level of input, the level of training, the level of know-how. We want the people to know more than just how to defend the country. They must also know how to contribute to development, how to help resolve contradictions and when they leave the National Defence Force we want them to leave with skills that will make them effective contributors to development inside our own society. That is the point really that we are making. So we mustn’t be understood to mean that we are changing the mandate that the nation has given the National Defence Force.

Dr Van Heerden, in verband met die hele situasie in die Oos-Vrystaat, en so meer, ek dink ons moet miskien die saak later hanteer. Ek dink die kwessie waaroor u gepraat het, is of ons in dié stadium mense in ons program kan verseker dat die situasie vir die gewone burger veilig genoeg is, of nie.

Ons sal weer eens hierna kyk. Ons werk saam met die Ministers betrokke hier in dié groep, en ek dink ons sal dit kan regkry. As dit nodig is dat iets drasties gedoen moet word, sal ons in dié verband dan stappe doen. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Dr Van Heerden, with regard to the whole situation in the eastern Free State and so forth, I think perhaps we should deal with this matter later. I think the matter you referred to is whether at this stage we can give the people in our programme the assurance that the situation is safe enough for the ordinary citizen, or not.

We shall look at it again. We are working with the Ministers involved in this group, and I think we will be able to succeed. If drastic steps are required, we shall then take the necessary action in this regard.]

I must say that my attention was attracted by the points that were made. One was made by the hon Ntuli who referred to an experience he had in a police station in Durban. The others were made by the hon S J Loe. But if we listened to both of them they were saying the same thing except that the Minister of Correctional Services had also referred to this issue and he had tried to indicate what work is being done.

When the Minister says that we have to change the mind-set of people it means that as this government we are faced with the challenge of getting in place in the Public Service - and that’s more than a million people - men and women who in the majority not only understand what we mean by Batho Pele, but who are also committed daily to implementing the policy of government.

The first thing we have done, hon S J Loe, to deal with the problem that you were talking about. We have given the Public Service a motto, and said to them: As you serve, please, people first. That, if I may say so, hon member, is both the majority of us who are sitting in this House and everywhere in this nation. We were victims of a Public Service of the past that treated us as less than human beings and that’s why it became so important for us that we must do something about transforming the Public Service. So that is the one thing. The first thing to do was to do that - Batho Pele. Of course, we didn’t say only black people first; all people first.

So when you come to the police station, when you come to the office of the National Defence Force, when you get to welfare offices, when you get to Home Affairs, we want - and we have said so to the Public Service men and women behind the desk - that they must understand that the VIPs of today are not the Minister, are not the President, they are the men and women who come in there. They may have gnarled hands, old hats, be poor, from shacks or whatever, but those are the VIPs of our time. [Applause.]

Therefore, such a Public Service must prioritise serving these people, treating them with dignity, with respect, etc. That’s what the Minister of Correctional Services is saying when he said last week that he signed a declaration of commitment with his top structure. I can attest to that because I visited there and I saw him talking to his people there trying to get them right on this course.

Now, all of us here, whether in the executive of government - national, provincial or local government - ought better to understand that more and first, before everybody else, are the communities because the Public Servants get policy from us, the politicians. The second thing is that we must help the communities understand what policy is.

The third and critical thing is that daily, where we have constituencies, where we live in communities, and we observe that there is a policeperson in a particular police station who is not treating people as they should, because you are members of Parliament, if you find such a police person, please come to me and say: Minister, in our area there is a policeperson, Mr so and so or Miss so and so, who is not treating people as they should. And if you want to know, we can get members of the community who can make affidavits as to what this person is doing to them.

I tell you now what will happen to that policeperson. He or she will be out of a job as soon as it is proven they are like that and will be put in a police station, under one who understands Batho Pele and is committed to it. In Correctional Services, as well, many of you go there, parents go there in the local area – people meet one prison warder daily.

At Home Affairs, traffic departments and everywhere, members cannot be content with overlooking something wrong and keeping quiet and then when an opportunity for debate comes, come here, write something and shout at us in the House without converting themselves into instruments of transformation. You are going to be an instrument of transformation yourself. [Applause.]

Once you help the community to get rid of somebody they don’t want they now tell one another and spread it around that anybody who is in the Public Service, and who does not understand that the people are VIPs and pay taxes that pay them, would lose their job. But that is your task and my task in this House. That is our task as we are here – the opposition, as well as the ruling party. I would like to end on that note. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The Council adjourned at 19:11. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS


                         MONDAY, 23 MAY 2005

TABLINGS

National Council of Provinces

1. The Chairperson

                           REPORT ON
               ‘TAKING PARLIAMENT TO THE PEOPLE:
                   PUTTING OUR PEOPLE FIRST’
   
                     Executive Summary[1]
   
                          MPUMALANGA
   
                      14 – 18 MARCH 2005
   

Acknowledgements

The delegation from the National Council of Provinces (NCOP), Parliament of the Republic of South Africa, would like to extend their appreciation to:

• The people of Mpumalanga province, specifically to the KwaMhlanga community. • Ministers, Premiers, Members of the Executive Committees (MECs), the national and provincial departmental officials. • The South African Police Services (SAPS). • All Traffic Departments that provided excellent security services.

The 2005 Taking Parliament to the People programme was a success due to this assistance. The generosity of spirit, warmth, and security provided the delegation with the capacity to undertake this major but crucial component of their oversight work.

1. Introduction

In June 2004, the National Council of Provinces (NCOP) unveiled its programme of action for the third term of Parliament of the Republic of South Africa, entitled, Vision 2009. In terms of the programme of action, by the year 2009, the NCOP will spend 70% of its time and resources performing oversight work and 30% on legislation. The aim is to assist in speeding up the delivery of government programmes and policies in order to improve the lives of the people of South Africa.

The Taking Parliament to the People programme, launched in 2002, is placed at the centre of this programme of action. Taking Parliament to the People is a programme aimed at according rural communities an opportunity of directly taking part in the affairs of Parliament. This is made possible by taking the NCOP to the people.

Furthermore, the NCOP is obligated by the Constitution in Section 42(4) to ‘represent the provinces to ensure that provincial interests are taken into account in the national sphere of government. It does this mainly by participating in the national legislative process, and by providing a national forum for public consideration of issues affecting the provinces’.

To this effect, the NCOP visited Mpumalanga, and specifically chose one site, that of KwaMhlanga, as a case study to exercise oversight over the implementation of government policies and legislation by national government, and to provide a platform for the people to air their views on government’s delivery on the people’s contract.

Areas of Focus

A strong human rights framework underpinned the 2005 Taking Parliament to the People programme. The achievements of the government in its second decade of democracy emphasised the legislative and policy transformation needed to attain a Constitutional democracy.

The 2005 programme focused on the following:

• Implementation and progression of service delivery within the areas of local government, social security, poverty alleviation and job creation, and provision of water. • Specialised meetings focused on the youth, women and people living with disability.

The following themes underpinned the formal inputs/submissions and site visits:

• Cooperative Governance and Issues of Poverty, Rural Development and
  Health.
• The implementation of recently passed local government legislation and
  the challenges posed thereof.
• Agricultural and Public Works Programmes as a Tool for Poverty
  Alleviation and Job Creation.
• Poverty Alleviation and Educational and Social Needs.
• Structures in place to address the challenges faced by children, the
  youth and people with disabilities.
• Structures and institutions set up by government in the past 10 years
  of democracy towards the advancement of women.
• The provision of water as a basic human right:  successes and
  challenges facing the government.
• The impact of Expanded Public Works Programmes and other programmes
  directed to the creation of jobs on the people of Mpumalanga.

The sections that follow provide inputs from formal meetings and site visits that broadly and specifically impact on Mpumalanga Province.

1. Overview of themes underpinning the programme

2. Theme 1: Co-operative Governance and Issues of Poverty, Rural Development and Health

   • Mayor of the Local Municipality of Thembisile, Mr V V Nkosi

The Mayor of the Local Municipality of Thembisile, Mr V V Nkosi, noted the importance of co-operative governance, and maintained that this should be linked to addressing issues of poverty, rural development, health and other developmental issues, which impact particularly on the rural poor.

The following challenges were highlighted:

• Thembisile Municipality has one of the highest unemployment ratios
  within the eNkangala District.
• The form and content of economic activities in the Thembisile
  Municipality was highly problematic, as it did not serve the needs of
  the people.
• The policies of Government dealing with poverty alleviation has not as
  yet impacted fully on the region,
• Councillors are struggling to implement recently passed legislation in
  Local Government.  One such example is the recently enacted Property
  Rates Act.  The problems faced encompass the issue of jurisdictional
  area, which is ‘unproclaimed’ and under the Amakhosi’s rule.


• Chairperson of the Provincial House of Traditional Leaders, the
  Honourable Kgoši M F Mashile

The Honourable Kgoši Mashile highlighted the crucial role of the traditional leaders in cooperative governance:

• The traditional leaders in the province were one of the first that
  supported the establishment of municipalities that worked toward fast-
  tracking the development of rural people.
• In 1997, Mpumalanga was also the first province that initiated
  discussions between the municipalities.  The process entailed an
  understanding of the need of cooperation between the municipalities
  and traditional leaders.  It also stressed the interconnectedness of
  the working relationship, but noted the different roles that each
  played in this process.
• Ongoing discussions were initiated and this resulted in the
  establishment of a cluster called Mayor-Amakhosi Cluster.  The broad
  objective of the cluster is to effect easy communication, consultation
  and to attend to any problems.
• The legislative framework underpinning this dual relationship, that
  is, the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Act, 2003,
  makes the cooperative relationship between the two sectors more
  effective.

Kgoši Mashile highlighted the many challenges confronted by traditional leaders in working at a cooperative level:

• Certain provincial departments neither consult with the traditional
  leaders, nor with the traditional leader of the area, as a
  constitutional structure, where development is to take place.
• The process of project development is undertaken by partnerships
  between municipalities and departments.  There is no consultation with
  the traditional leaders who have greater insight into the needs of
  those particular communities.
• Although the traditional government and district municipality are
  charged with rural and sustainable development, the traditional
  councils should be brought on board to facilitate development.
  Budgets should therefore be allocated to traditional councils so that
  these development plans can be realised.

In September 2004, traditional leaders held a conference, and the following resolutions/recommendations were taken:

• The House of Traditional Leaders must establish a working relationship
  with structures within and outside Government.
• Amakhosi should play an integral role in the implementation of
  Integrated Development Plans (IDPs), and other relevant local
  government programmes.
• Amakhosi, together with municipalities and provincial Government,
  should promote sound working relationships and partnerships for
  community development.

In conclusion, Kgoši Mashile stressed the broader role of traditional leaders in the context of improving continental relationships. The Mpumalanga Provincial House of Traditional Leaders initiated the establishment of the Continental House of Traditional Leaders, which will be the body attached to the Pan-African Parliament to serve as a source of advice on indigenous African Culture, African Renaissance, Moral Regeneration and Conflict Resolution. All African countries embraced this idea.

• The Premier of Mpumalanga, the Honourable Mr T S P Makwetla

The Premier conceptualised the meaning of Taking Parliament to the People by providing an apt quote from the late the Honourable Ms J Kgoali in locating the relevance of the programme. Ms Kgoali, in reference to the importance of the Taking Parliament to the People, 2004, noted the following:

Taking Parliament to the People has been conceived within a context of the need to engage with and bring on board the ordinary South Africans, as we go about doing our Parliamentary business. This programme should serve as a vehicle to place Parliament where people are, ensuring visibility of this important institution, even to the most rural parts of our country. Ordinary South Africans, including women, youth, senior citizens, school children, and traditional leaders are able to interact with and inform Parliament of their daily experiences.

The Premier identified a number of issues that would confront Members of the NCOP, as they engage with the people of Mpumalanga on site visits. These include: poverty alleviation, job creation, rural development and access to basic services.

The Premier pointed out that during the past ten years a foundation for success was laid by the adoption of the Constitution that provides for a legal obligation on Government to advance development. The Premier acknowledged that the system of cooperative governance in South Africa has faced many challenges, which include issues about good governance and financial management, tensions around policy coordination, and at times limitations in the ability to deliver services, despite the availability of resources.

Mpumalanga, according to the Premier, has made good progress on a number of key areas, including:

• Interventions aimed at capacitating municipalities for effective
  service delivery.
• Laying a solid foundation for meaningful socio-economic development,
  and reaching out to targeted vulnerable groups, including the youth,
  women, children and people living with disabilities.

However, the Province confronts the following challenges:

• Apartheid had fostered economic marginalisation of many communities
  and ensured that the majority of people lived in rural backwaters and
  (former) homelands, with no access to opportunities to adequate
  education or suitable infrastructure suitable for sustainable human
  development.
• The Premier highlighted concerns about the Intergovernmental Fiscal
  Relations system that is currently emerging in the country.  Whilst
  expressing his satisfaction with the emerging system, he cautioned
  that it might limit the ability of the provinces to set their own
  priorities or turning them into ‘agencies’ of the national sphere of
  government.  The Premier encouraged all spheres of government to
  ensure that efforts are made to ensure that the new dispensation for
  allocating resources to provinces would not entrench and exacerbate
  the spatial disparities of the past.
• Translating into concrete programmes many of the ambitious policies
  adopted by public representatives to improve the lives of people.
• Some policies are far too complex for the capacity of public officials
  who are expected to implement them.
• There is a need to enhance and create leadership at national,
  provincial and local levels to meet the tasks set out and match the
  capacity of leadership to the tasks and challenges being faced.

To evaluate the translation of policies and legislation and to ensure that basic services are provided to the people of Mpumalanga province, the delegation undertook site visits to various health centres and schools. The information provided below gives an overview of the key issues and challenges of the health centres and schools. The overview will offer the general challenges noted by all health centres and schools, and will focus specifically on the unique challenges confronted by respective health centres and schools.

Visits to Health Centres

Five health centres, comprising the following, were identified:

• KwaMhlanga Hospital.
• Ingakara Project for Orphaned and Vulnerable Children.
• The Fene Health Centres.
• The Verena Community Health Centres.
• Kubonakele Home-Based Care Centre.

The health centres in Mpumalanga are currently experiencing a common set of challenges as well as unique challenges confronting respective health centres. The following are general challenges common to all health centres:

     • Insufficient funds to meet growing demands and expansion needs,
       departmental budget allocations to the hospital need to reflect
       this.
     • The need for accommodation infrastructure for professional
       health workers.
     • Lack of doctors, need for regular availability of doctors and
       the need for the retention of nurses and other professional
       staff as a result of a rural base of the Province’s health
       centres.
     • Lack of facilities, resources or poor equipment.
     • The need for space to accommodate growing demands.
     • Lack of access to transport for patients or beneficiaries of
       social services.
     • Need for water and sanitation services to be improved.
     • Increase of diseases as a result of lack of access to basic
       services, such as clean water at health centres.

Also, there are a number of challenges that are unique and specific to individual health centres in the Province. The following challenges were identified:

• In KwaMhlanga Hospital concerns were raised regarding the current role
  and powers of the Chief Executive Officer that seem to limit his/her
  ability to manage the hospital.
• KwaMhlanga is facing problems with the South African Police Services
  (SAPS) regarding the utilisation of the mortuary and transferring of
  forensic services from SAPS to the hospital.
• Also, KwaMhlanga is awaiting accreditation to roll out ARV, especially
  since the Province has the second highest infection rate in the
  country.
• At Fene Health Centre there is conflict between the Chief and the
  Clinic. In particular, there is a need to clarify whether the
  allocations from the provincial department’s budget are for the
  maintenance of the traditional leader’s buildings or for the clinic’s
  building.
• Furthermore, there has been an increase in the applications for
  disability grants that are burdening the nurses and clinic staff with
  more paper work.
• Kubonakele Home-Based Care Centre highlighted the lack of support or
  even visits from officials from the Departments of Health and Social
  Services to their project.

1. Visits to schools

The following six schools were identified:

• Elukhanyisweni Senior Secondary School
• Jabulani Primary School
• Bingweni Secondary School
• Madlayedwa Secondary School
• Mkhephule Secondary School
• Thulani Secondary School

A number of challenges were raised by schools that were visited in Mpumalanga. Many of these challenges experienced by the schools are general and others were unique to individual schools.

The following general challenges were raised at the schools visited:

• Lack of classrooms and accommodation.
• Poor maintenance of school buildings.
• Lack of access to basic services such clean, regular water and
  sanitation.
• High levels of crime and violence in schools.
• Lack of facilities such libraries, laboratories, furniture and books.
• The need to strengthen good governance at schools.

A number of challenges were specific to schools. These included:

• Elukhanyisweni Senior Secondary School pointed out it faces the
  challenge of how to improve performance of learners, especially when
  there has been a marked decrease in the pass rate of matriculants.
• Jabulani Primary School indicated that it faces the need for an
  equitable distribution of facilities and resources to different
  language speakers to avoid tensions at the school.
• Shortage of classrooms and delays in the appointment of educators were
  pointed out as some of the challenges facing the school.
• At Mkhephuli Senior Secondary, there is ongoing dispute between the
  Principal and some permanent staff members, who allege that they are
  being overlooked in favour of temporary staff. The Principal explained
  that these educators were identified for redeployment to areas where
  their subjects were needed.

1. Theme 2: The implementation of recently passed local government legislation and challenges posed

   • Presentation by the Honourable Mr J L Mahlangu, Mpumalanga MEC for Local Government and Housing

The MEC focused on the objectives and challenges posed by the requirements of three recently passed pieces of local government legislation on local government structures. The three pieces of legislation encompassed the following:

• The Municipal Financial Management Act (MFMA) of 2000 posed particular
  challenges for municipalities with regard to the necessary skills and
  expertise, which are lacking.  The Act seeks further to impose
  financially sound management within municipalities but this poses a
  greater burden on the budgets of municipalities.
• The Municipal Systems Act, 1998, requires all municipalities to
  prepare Integrated Development Plans (IDPs).  Problems arise when
  there is no expertise to ensure the correct preparation, drafting and
  reviewing processes of IDPs.  Furthermore, there is a challenge posed
  by the lack of community participation in public forums, to discuss
  local issues and interests that should be reflected in the IDPs.
• The implementation of the Disaster Management Act of 2003, poses a few
  problems – poorly trained personnel and the lack of funds to buy the
  necessary safety equipment.  These challenges pose a problem for
  proper preparation of local disaster management plans.
• Other issues raised by the MEC include the failure on the part of the councillors to distinguish between administrative functions, and those of the Council.  He pointed out that there is persistent interference by councillors into administrative functions.  The MEC expressed hope that the Municipal Finance Management Act, as well as the passing of the Intergovernmental Relations Bill, will contribute towards a greater awareness of the importance of the separation of powers within and outside local government level.

• Address by the Honourable Mr M J Mahlangu, Chairperson of the NCOP

The Chairperson emphasised the importance of bringing Parliament closer to the people, and focused on the oversight functions of the NCOP in leading the process in ensuring developmental issues are a critical component of local government programmes.

The Chairperson maintained that despite the enactment of the three pieces of legislation mentioned above, which aimed at improving local government level’s performance, municipalities confronted a number of constraints and problems. He highlighted the following:

• The capacity of municipalities to comply with the requirements of the
  phased implementation strategy of MFMA.
• The lack of public participation in municipalities.
• The lack of overall compliance with legislation by municipalities.
• The need to improve the capacity of municipalities to implement
  national priority programmes such as the Expanded Public Works
  Programme, and related projects.
• The challenges posed in the provision of basic services to the people
  who are most needy.

He noted that the NCOP has a Constitutional obligation to support and strengthen the capacity of municipalities in dealing with these challenges, through legislative or other means (this could include Parliamentary committees’ oversight role and programmes such as the Project Consolidate, which identifies critical areas of intervention and to direct resources towards such problem areas). Through representation of all provinces and organised local government, the NCOP provides an important forum for other levels of government and related structures in national Parliament processes.

In conclusion, he noted the importance of the challenges of accelerating the process of transformation and eradication of poverty, and the need for a strong local government base to play a meaningful role in the implementation process.

• Presentation by the representative from SALGA, Councillor R T Matseke
  (Mpumalanga), on progress made and challenges faced by councilors in
  executing their functions

Although many people questioned the need for local government, the view of SALGA is that such a need exists, despite the problems and concerns raised regarding corruption and poor service delivery.

A number of challenges and possible interventions, listed below, to improve the work and performance of municipalities and Councillors were highlighted by Councillor Matseke:

• The need to review Councillor’s remuneration, taking into account
  costs associated with baseline services such as constituency work, and
  facilities needed to make their work efficient.
• Many municipalities are struggling with operationalisation of new
  governance arrangements arising out of newly passed legislation.
  There is a need to provide assistance to municipalities through proper
  research information, ongoing advising and support.  Further, there is
  a need to champion the interests of local government within
  legislation, such as the Communal Land Rights Act, and the Traditional
  Leadership and Governance Act.  There is a definite need to implement
  resolutions of Ward Committee Conferences.
• The need to provide support and assistance to municipalities
  struggling with economic development strategies.
• The need to address challenges posed by the demand for quality service
  delivery at the local government level.
• The issues and challenges posed by municipal finances, their viability
  and financial management capacity need to be addressed.
• The need for prioritising of special projects.

Visits to Farms and Expanded Public Works Projects

Visits to Farms

The farms visited incorporated the following sites:

• Lesedi Farmers Trust, Greater Groblersdal.
• Hereford Irrigation.
• Transbridge Agricultural Project, Vlaklaagte No II.
• Ekuthuleni Vegetable Project, Kwaggafontein C.
• Thuthukani Women’s Project, Setompo.

A number of challenges were raised by farmers visited in Mpumalanga. Many of these challenges currently experienced by the farmers were common and others were unique to individual farms.

• One of the challenges facing many farms is access to funds, especially
  accessing loans whilst facing outstanding debts.
• Accessing water is a problem because of poor infrastructure
  facilities.
• Access to markets for the farmers produce.
• Need for ongoing support, such as on capacity building and computer
  literacy.
• The need for accommodation facilities and sanitation.

The expanded public works projects incorporated the following sites:

• KwaMhlanga Hospital, KwaMhlanga.
• Mamethlake Hospital, Mamethlake, Nkangala.
• Moloto Community Health, Moloto, Nkangala.
• Sifikile Primary School, Kwagga ‘A’.

A number of challenges were raised by public works projects visited in Mpumalanga. These included:

• Late payment by Government departments for work completed on tendered
  projects.
• Financial difficulties as a result of delayed payments, especially for
  emerging contractors.
• There is no compliance with the Guidelines for the Implementation of
  Labour Intensive Methods for EPWP related projects.
• Workers are not registered with the Department of Labour and provided
  with accredited skills training.
• Lack of communication and poor coordination of projects.
• The need for a proper evaluation and monitoring mechanism to ensure
  performance and compliance with tender requirements and standards.

However, an important issue raised by the Sifikile Primary School, is that it has not yet been registered as a school with the Department of Education. There is a need for cooperation and better communication between the Departments of Public Works and Education

1. Theme 3: Agriculture as a tool for poverty alleviation and job creation

In addressing the issues related to this theme, the objectives of the meeting were to:

• Meet with farmers, departmental officials, the provincial Ministry,
  and Members of the Legislatures (MPLs) and Members of Parliament
  (MPs).
• Listen to the challenges/concerns that confront farmers, and the
  difficulties faced in the implementation of programmes and policies.
• To collectively improve cooperation between different levels of
  government.

      • Presentation by the Honourable Ms AT Didiza (Minister of
        Agriculture and Land Affairs)

The presentation emphasised the crucial intervention tool of Agriculture in addressing a number of developmental issues. The government, ten years ago, embarked on key policy changes within agriculture by:

• Deregulating the sector and opening up markets for global trading
  opportunities for commercial farmers.
• Re-prioritising its delivery towards focusing on previously
  disadvantaged small-scale farmers to create equal opportunities in the
  sector for these farmers.

The following strategic intervention programmes devised by government, targeting small-scale farmers was introduced:

• The most notable programme has been the Comprehensive Agricultural
  Support Programme (CASP), which provides assistance to farmers at
  various levels.
• The Agricultural Credit Scheme (ACS), offers financial assistance to
  farmers.
• The importance of creating accessible local markets for previously
  disadvantaged farmers were also a crucial component within the
  agricultural sector.  This has prompted government to investigate the
  status of agricultural marketing infrastructure in four rural
  development nodes.  The Western Cape is being used as a pilot node and
  government envisages the establishment of an integrated agricultural
  marketing infrastructure in the targeted nodes.  This will provide
  agricultural marketing information to land reform beneficiaries as
  well as other resources to poor farmers.
• The Land Redistribution for Agricultural Development (LRAD) also
  provides benefits to both men and women.  This programme creates
  opportunities for men and women to form partnerships, apply for the
  LRAD grant, and work the land as a collective to fight poverty.

With regard to the land reform process, the Minister noted the following:

• The most important factor in ensuring agricultural production is the securing of land and tenure rights, not only to those previously disadvantaged, but specifically to those most vulnerable, the women. Women have been equally recognised as lawful owners of land (be it as an inheritance or a legitimate claim) within the government’s land reform programme. This includes women in communal areas who were previously not recognised as lawful landowners, even if the households were female-headed. With the enactment of the Communal Land Rights Act, women can now hold title deeds to their land, thus creating collateral to secure agricultural loans to feed their families. • In instances where land was unavailable, government has made amends via financial or other means. In many cases, cities and towns have already been established on some of these land sites, and people cannot get back their land. • There is a general view that when people opt for financial benefits, they are insufficiently compensated. It has been noted that most people prefer receiving money rather than land. Many need the money to improve their lives and educate their children. • For those communities that live under tribal authorities, legislation has been enacted for the land to be moved to the people. The land then belongs to the entire tribal community in the area rather than to the Chiefs alone. This tribal land can now be used to apply for loans so that people can have access to finances. The Communal Land legislation and the Constitution make provision to empower the people.

Future Developments

• The government is investigating ways through which farmers are assisted so that the markets do not hurt small farmers. • The agricultural market needs to be expanded so that these farmers can sell their produce across provincial boundaries. • Land must be used carefully so that future generations can utilise this land. • Land in rural areas and former homelands are in a bad state. The land cannot be used for growing crops and keeping sustainable livestock. This, however, can be reversed. Government, together with farmer communities have to take charge to ensure that farmers use the land responsibly.

Submissions by farmers:

The following issues and challenges emerged:

Land Ownership

• Farmers requested the Minister to assist them in obtaining ownership
  of land. This would assist in creating jobs in the area. It would also
  assist them to acquire ownership of the land that would contribute to
  the economic development of their region, province and the country.
• Several submissions referred to the matter of farming on tribal land.

Accessing financial assistance from Financial Institutions

• There are situations where farmers struggle to access funding from
  Financial Institutions because they have no proof of ownership.
• Farmers perceive the Land Bank as a secondary agent that slows down
  access to funds.
• Submissions referred to the fact that all farmers’ assets are used for
  collateral – leaving them in huge debt to financial institutions.

Infrastructure Support

• There is a serious lack of borehole facilities in areas experiencing
  drought.
• Where rivers run through land, farmers need assistance (technical as
  well as financial) to build dams and set up irrigation systems for
  their purposes.
• Some submissions referred to the problem of maintaining existing
  infrastructural elements such as fencing, machinery, equipment and
  storage facilities for perishable produce.
• Others linked the need for fencing with the problem of a lack of fire-
  belts in drier fire-prone areas.

Communication with Departmental Officials

• Farmers noted that there is inadequate communication between the
  Mpumalanga Department of Agricultural and the farmers.
• Submissions called for provincial government intervention on several
  issues such as skills development in areas of resource management,
  administration, soil testing and mentoring.  In many instances, some
  officials ignored these appeals.
• Reports are also often compiled by departmental officials with no
  contact with the relevant farmer-communities.
• Some submissions called for an inquiry into the manner in which the
  departmental officials undertake their work.

Skills Development and Mentoring

• Farmers stressed the importance of the assistance needed from the
  department in skills related to farming.
• The important aspect of mentoring of emerging farmers was also an
  important point.
• In addition, provision has to be made for the empowerment of women and
  the disabled to become independent farmers.
• Farmers aim to pool their resources amongst different groups and in
  this cooperative manner develop the farming communities and the
  regional and provincial economy. In order to do this, they need
  agricultural technicians to visit farms more often to boost farming.

Opening up Markets for Small Farmers

• Farmers struggle to sell their produce, as there is a lack of markets.


• It is also very difficult to sell produce on the mainstream market.
• Several submissions referred to the need for government intervention
  to open the existing agricultural market. Framers expressed their
  pleasure at noticing that the Minister’s speech referred to this
  important issue.

1. Theme 4: Poverty Alleviation and Educational and Social Needs

   • Presentation by the Honourable Mrs G N M Pandor, Minister of
     Education
   

The Honourable Minister noted that before 1994, the majority of South Africans did not have a legal right to education. The apartheid state built few schools, provided unqualified teachers, and limited the curriculum for the majority of Black people.

With the enactment of the South African Constitution in 1996, the right to education for all persons was entrenched and supported by a range of laws, starting with the Schools Act of 1995, which states that ‘all the children in South Africa have the right to a basic education’.

The Minister highlighted the following achievements by government in realising the above right:

    • The improvement of school infrastructure.
    • Provision of water and sanitation at schools.
    • The intention to improve library facilities in all communities,
      and provide books to learners.
    • There is a recognition that performance in Mathematics and
      Science need to be improved.  A focused national Mathematics and
      Science development strategy has been developed, and 102 Dinaledi
      Schools have been established nationally to focus on improving
      performance in these subjects.
    • The provision of nutrition to learners at primary school level
      through the national school nutrition programmes.
    • The government has undertaken programmes to support access to
      higher education.

Despite the significant progress to widen access to education, the Minister highlighted the following challenges:

• Improving the quality of education and ensuring that there are real
  opportunities for effective learning.
• Improving mathematics performance.
• Ensuring that children at lower grades are able to read, write and do
  basic mathematics (foundation skills).
• Improving Matriculation performances and ensuring that there are
  honest outcomes.
• Encouraging more students to enrol in critical skills training
  institutions to increase the number of technically skilled artisans.
• Addressing the impact of HIV and Aids, focusing particularly on youth
  and teachers, through awareness programmes and education.
• Improving security at schools for both teachers and learners.
• Encouraging parents to support teachers and schools.
• The need to monitor the implementation of the nutrition programme.
• Ensuring that children attend school, work hard and provide the
  quality skills to ensure a better life for all.

• Presentations by the Honourable Mr P Pasha and the Honourable Mr
  Mabena, MEC for Health and Social Services, Mpumalanga province

The MEC stressed the relevance of national and provincial departments in implementing programmes or projects aimed at the provision of benefits to those in dire need. He highlighted the following initiatives by the provincial department to alleviate poverty:

• Through the Poverty Relief Programme, the department provides support
  to community-based projects by funding projects targeted at vulnerable
  groups, such as women, children, youth, the elderly and people with
  disabilities.
• As part of the food security initiative, government provides food
  parcels as emergency food relief to poor households.  The MEC
  indicated that in all districts, distribution of food parcels has
  begun.
• On the issue of community-owned public works programmes, the MEC for
  Social Services indicated that the provincial department works closely
  with other departments.
• The MEC noted that the department works in conjunction with the
  Departments of Health and Education to implement home-based care
  programme.
• The province provides all types of social grants as per government
  directive to South African citizens.

1. Theme 5: Structures in place to address the challenged faced by Children, the Youth and People with Disabilities

   • Presentation by the Honourable Mr D D Gamede, Chairperson of the Joint Monitoring Committee on the Improvement of the Quality of Life and Status of Children, Youth and the Disabled

Since 1996, the government has introduced a number of pieces of policy legislation and the creation of structures to protect, respond, facilitate and provide rights to the groups mentioned above. This forms the affirmative action policy framework.

• Presentation by Committee of Disabled People of South Africa

The following issues were emphasised in this presentation:

• The implementation of programmes in line with the legislative
  framework for the disabled persons.
• The Free Health Care programme for people with disabilities.
• Improved access to rehabilitation services, including the
  participation of people with disabilities in the implementation of the
  Community-Based Rehabilitation programme and the community service
  therapists.
• The need for Social Security Programme.
• Support for the Space Project in Mombela.
• Participation of people with disabilities and their organisations in
  the development and implementation of programmes.
• The provision of housing to people with disabilities.

• Presentation on the Office of the Status of Disabled People (OSDP) in
  the Office of the Premier of Mpumalanga

The provincial government continues to address the needs of the disabled persons in the following ways:

  • Disabled people in the province receive free access to health
    facilities.
  • The government in partnership with the Department Health and Social
    Services, is servicing the needs of the disabled persons in the
    province.
  • The OSDP in the Premier’s Office has conducted an audit of services
    delivery and problems experienced by the disabled persons in the
    province.

Challenges of disabled persons

Despite the major progress and breakthrough in many areas, people with disabilities are still facing major challenges. The following are inclusive of those raised by the members of the public:

  • The inclusive education system is not properly implemented. There
    is a lack of access to appropriate and accessible education for
    children with disabilities.
  • Non-compliance by the provincial government to implement the
    Employment Equity Act. The audit by the OSDP with the participation
    of the disability sector indicates that there are only 121 people
    with disabilities employed in government.
  • Non-compliance by the provincial government to the requirements of
    the Preferential Procurement Policy Framework (for example, the
    Ramp programme to support disabled people.).
  • The lack of consultation by the Department of Health on changing
    cachment areas of hospitals. People from Thembisile receive
    services at Mmatleke Hospital, which is more than 100km away
    instead of accessing services at KwaMhlanga Hospital (the
    demarcation process should not affect peoples lives).
  • The need for district municipalities to establish Disability Desks
    in order to ensure coordination, policy advisory services and
    public awareness on disability matters at district level.
  • Addressing communication matters for people that are deaf in an
    integrated manner.
  • Inaccessibility of public facilities including clinics, schools,
    recreational facilities, community halls, police stations, courts,
    offices, hospitals etc.
  • Lack of services for artificial legs, calipers and special shoes as
    a result inhibits the independency of persons with disabilities.
  • In the KwaMhlanga and Mmametlae areas, the lack of appropriate
    rehabilitation facilities is of particular concern.
  • Lack of life skills development programmes for persons with
    disabilities.
  • Persons with disability need to have better and improved facilities
    and training on business skills.
  • Children who go blind later in life are not accepted in relevant
    schools and are unable to continue with education.
  • In Kwarha C, the Disabled Concerned Group (DISAG) needs relevant
    education for the children with disabilities.
  • In the work place, management is not supportive of the needs of
    employees with disabilities.
  • The newly established public places do not comply with the
    requirements  (transport services, schools not accessible to
    persons with disabilities).

Recommendations

It was stressed that Members of the provincial legislature and NCOP should take note of all issues raised that are relevant to their respective committees.

  • Mr Masambo cited that the Executive Council (Provincial Cabinet)
    needs to adopt the Audit conducted by the OSDP and the disability
    sector and therefore ensure that all departments implement
    recommendations of the audit and monitor on regular intervals.
  • Mr Mahlangu stressed that the Provincial Government should in a
    structured manner meet with the disability sector to discuss issues
    of common interest.
  • Government to commit in the implementation of the EEA.
  • A well-structured 3-5 year programme should be developed to address
    the inaccessibility of the public facilities within the context of
    the EPWP.
  • The Department of Health to a look at the quality of rehabilitation
    at KwaMhlanga and Mamametake as a first priority.
  • The establishment of a secondary /specialised rehabilitation
    facility for the province of Mpumalanga.
  • Mr Gamede indicated that the DPSA should approach the Department of
    Labour to identify the Seta within the province, which is
    responsive to the needs of the disabled persons.
  •  Mr Gamede further stated that the local government should indicate
    how they propose to address the lack of support for braille
    services for the blind.
  • People with disabilities should approach the Department of Trade
    and Industry and Khula Enterprises to assist in addressing some of
    their entrepreneurial problems.
  • With regard to the establishment of disabled municipality desks, it
    is important that each ward has a representative that could take up
    issues of the disabled persons.

The NCOP and Provincial legislature will assist in advancing all the highlighted issues.

• Presentation by Mr. M. Kekana, CEO of Umsobomvu Youth Fund (UYF)

Background

In 2001, government established the Youth Commission to create a platform for job creation, skills development and transfer for South African youth. The UYF identified three major programmes areas, namely:

• Umsobomvu Youth Fund.
• Contact Information and Counseling (CIC) Skills Development and
  Transfer and Youth Entrepreneurship.
• National Youth Service Programme, inclusive of the food security
  programme.

To date, 2 500 youth have benefited from the UYF programme.

• Presentation by Ms. V. Tulelo, Commissioner from the National Youth
  Commission

Background

The National Youth Commission was established in June 1996. It came after the youth summit convened by President Thabo Mbeki to empower youth as part of the Reconstruction and Development Programme. She noted that it was agreed at Presidential level that all government programmes had to consider youth issues, and to ensure that these filter through to the provincial and local levels.

The National Youth Commission’s roles and responsibilities are enshrined in the National Commission Act, 1996, and these are listed below:

• To co-ordinate and develop an integrated National Youth Commission.
• To develop an integrated national plan that utilises available
  resources and expertise for the development of young women and
  children.
• To develop principles and guidelines and make recommendations to
  government regarding such principles and guidelines for the
  implementation of the National Youth Policy.
• To promote uniformity of approach by all organs of state, including
  provincial governments, on matters of concern to young men and women.
• To coordinate the activities of the various provincial government
  institutions involved in youth matters relating to young women and
  men.
• To implement measures to redress the imbalances of the past relating
  to various forms of disadvantage suffered by young men and women
  generally or by specific groups or categories.

The Provincial Youth Commission in the Province has undertaken the following to achieve the above:

• Social well-being of youth focusing on sports, arts and culture.
• Annuall host of high schools tournament in partnership with Mbambo
  municipality. The winners of this competition go on an international
  exchange programme.
• Social mobilisation and capacity building of youth structures.
• Facilitating the establishment of local youth units in 38% of the
  municipalities in the province.
• Trained young people on paralegal services, constitutional democracy
  and human rights.
• Hosted a provincial summit to develop a strategy for best practice of
  over 600 young people in learnership programmes.

1. Challenges Facing the Youth

Following the presentations by the Umsobomvu Youth Fund and the National Youth Commission, the youth were invited to raise challenges that they are currently facing. These are some of the challenges that were raised by the youth:

  • Lack of Local Youth Units in their areas.
  • Lack of funds to cater for youth needs.
  • There is a need for a framework dealing with young people.
  • Lack of tertiary institutions especially universities in their
    area.
  • Lack of financial assistance for young people who want to pursue
    their studies at tertiary level.
  • Labour centres are not accessible to the people.
  • Need training in drafting business plans and interpreting tender
    documents.
  • Most of the financial institutions need surety before they can
    grant financial assistance.
  • Access to information is still a privilege.
  • Youth organisations, especially Umsobomvu, are not visible to the
    rural youth.
  • Lack of youth advisory centres.
  • Municipalities are not supporting youth development.
  • There are no service providers on the ground, because UYF has few
    staff members, in order to disseminate its work, they depend on the
    service providers in the respective provinces.
  • Lack of involvement of Local Youth Units with their municipalities.

1. Recommendations

The emphasis was placed on the co-operation between the local government, youth commission and Umsobomvu Youth Fund together with strong local youth structures to take youth related matters forward. The following recommendations were made:

  • The UYF will expand the Business Development Support Voucher
    Programme to include the four provinces where it was not
    operational. These provinces would include Mpumalanga.
  • The UYF will implement a Programme called ‘take it to the People”
    (TIP) in partnership with intermediary Grant Makers and other key
    stakeholders, targeting rural development and urban renewal nodes.
  • For any other problems people can contact the office of the Chief
    Executive Officer of Umsobomvu Youth Fund.
  • The programme director Mr Setona said that all the matters dealing
    with education would be referred to the National Minister and the
    provincial MEC.
  • On the issue of surety, Mr Kekana indicated that if they believe
    that the business is viable no surety would be needed. He also
    indicated that most of the people had benefited from the fund
    without the collateral being required from them.

1. Theme 6: Structures and Institutions set up by Government in the past 10 years of democracy towards the advancement of women

   • Presentation by the Honourable Mrs P Hollander, Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP

The Deputy Chairperson located the issue of gender issues in South Africa within the Constitutional framework. She maintained that the Constitution stresses and ensures the equal treatment of women, children and men in the country.

South Africa’s Constitution is one of the most progressive worldwide and entrenches a number of different rights that are significant for women. One of the most significant features of the Constitution is the right to equality as the cornerstone of democracy. The centrality of the equality clause provides for substantive rights, which provided for a crucial piece of legislation, that is, the Promotion of Equality and Prevention of Unfair Discrimination Act, subsequently amended to allow the designation of judges and magistrates to preside in the Equality Courts. To give effect to the equality clause, a number of gender institutional mechanisms, legislation and policies were devised to create a conducive and enabling environment for women.

• Ms M Mabelane, Ma-Afrika Project

Background

Ma-Afrika Project is an African Renaissance Project that was founded in

1. The concept of Ma-Afrika recognises and rewards women for outstanding work in a community activity. It has the African Union’s endorsement and is one of the President’s African Renaissance Projects.

Although it originated as a national project, African countries participating in the project have increased in number over the years. Each year has a theme that focuses attention on the different areas of African Renaissance. The focus also promotes women’s leadership and the use of indigenous knowledge systems to alleviate poverty, particularly in the rural areas.

The project encourages the work of rural women who are not working in formal employment, for instance, women who do beadwork, healing and traditional medicines.

Objectives

• To honour women who, at grassroots level, uplift, educate and develop
  others in their communities.
• To foster pride in the diverse and distinct cultures of Africa.
• To create a network through which women with the same interests and
  ideals can interact.
• To focus attention on South Africa, it’s people and its opportunities.

Successes

The following achievements of the project should be noted:

• Over the past three years, 36 women were awarded with prizes.
• The establishment of a representative committee.
• The naming of the Mpumalanga Project, called Liyaphuma Ma Afrika
  Project.
• The training of 14 people who participated over the years in the
  sustainability of these projects.
• The drafting of a provincial constitution.

Challenges

The following challenges to the project were highlighted:

• Registering the project as a Section 21 company.
• The lack of funding.
• Optimal involvement of key stakeholders, particularly gender focal
  points.
• Instituting an after-care programme for projects that have been
  completed at various levels.
• Marketing of the project has not as yet reached its peak.
• Inadequate involvement of other women’s projects.

The presenter maintained that in spite of the above challenges, the following planned actions could be utilised to address challenges:

• Embarking on a road show to district municipalities in 2005.
• Registering the project as a Section 21 Company.
• Strengthening relationships with partners.
• Nominating patrons.
• Limiting the project to annual national themes to ensure that all
  women participate at a provincial level, annually.
• Emphasising the Liyaphuma Ma Afrika Project’s main objective to ensure
  that women contribute actively to the economic development of South
  Africa.
• Selling the vision of Ma Afrika to all stakeholders to ensure that the
  project becomes a flagship of integrated planning and implementation.
• Consolidating a database of all women projects in the province.

• Address by Ms N Mahlangu, Deputy President of NAFCOC Women’s Forum,
  Nkangala Region - Mpumalanga

Introduction

The Deputy President highlighted the number of milestones that have been attained through initiatives and policies to address past inequities and injustices that NAFCOC has strongly advocated during the past 40 years. There is a progressively enabling environment for previously disadvantaged individuals to realise their potential and participate in formal economical activities.

There has been a number of pieces of legislation aimed at addressing the legacy of the past, which provides an opportunity for all South Africans. Through such legislation such as the Employment Equity Act, Skills Development Act, BEE, Labour Relations Act, the Basic Conditions of Employment Act and the Preferential Procurement Policy, has set the framework for further economic advancement of women.

Challenges

The following challenges were highlighted by NAFCOC:

• The abuse of structures within NAFCOC by certain groups that seek to
  advance ‘sinister’ agendas, while hiding behind the constitution
  should be exposed.  These include using women as ‘fronts’, or
  ‘fronting’.
• When organisations/structures consider Black Economic Empowerment
  (BEE), and small business development to be almost synonymous.
• Government’s annual procurement managers are enjoined to spend as much
  of this as possible on black-owned businesses, but this has not
  necessarily provided a boost to women-owned businesses.
• There are other limitations to the public procurement process.
  Fronting occurs despite the best efforts at many public sector
  structures.  In many instances, fronting takes a relatively soft form
  where black women partners are brought in as junior partners to their
  spouses in existing supplier relationships.

• Presentation by Ms L. Mangisa, Provincial and Local Liaison,
  Government Communication and Information Service (GCIS)

Topic: MPCCs as a vehicle for women’s empowerment

Introduction

When the Multi-Purposes Community Centres (MPCCs) programme was conceived in 1998, the idea was to establish institutions that would play a pivotal role in enhancing access of information to communities in order to speed up the development process. MPCCs are one-stop centres where a service is provided in an integrated manner with the aim to improve communities. Since 1999, a number of policies have been instrumental in further shaping these institutions.

Role of Women in the MPCC Programme

The South African political environment recognises the importance of women and the role they should play in the country. Considerable progress in relation to the legal status of women has been achieved through the achievement of gender equality in the Bill of Rights of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa. MPCCs seek to ensure that these legislative principles are upheld in the day-to-day practice of public service delivery.

Women have played a pivotal role in the MPCC programme. During the establishment phase of MPCCs, women played a critical role in the construction process through the Labour Intensive Programme. More than 40% of women participated in the construction as well as serving in the project steering committees responsible for managing the construction of the buildings.

Achievements of Women in MPCC Programmes

Over the years, growing numbers of projects, especially those geared towards empowering women, were taking place in MPCCs. For example, the following activities were undertaken:

• During the 16 Days of Activism Campaign in 2004 (October – December),
  almost 120 community projects were held, with well over half being
  associated with MPCCs.  A leading example was the Women’s Cyber
  Dialogue.  In this project, women, and especially young women, from
  the furthest corners of the country, were connected to the national
  call centre in Johannesburg from 11 Telecentres in MPCCs.  During the
  cyber dialogue, these women were able to use computers and the
  Internet to exchange information on a wide variety of issues.  It was
  during this period that structures dealing with gender issues were
  invited at MPCCs to discuss a wide variety of topics with the
  Ministers.
• When South Africa celebrated 10 years of freedom and democracy
  nationwide in 2004, one of the highlights was events during Women’s
  Month in August.  A Women’s Caravan showcasing various achievements of
  women in their struggle for freedom as well as offering a wide range
  of services visited ordinary communities across the country, and
  especially at MPCCs.
• One of the most powerful symbols of the MPCC as a centre for women’s
  development was witnessed in 2001 when the Minister in the President’s
  Office formally launched the programme’s business plan.  This meeting
  stressed the importance of easier and efficient service delivery that
  was made possible with the establishment of MPCCs.

1. Theme 7: The provision of water as a basic human right: successes and challenges facing the Government

   • Presentation by the Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry

Introduction

In 1994, the ANC-led government found that the legislative framework during the apartheid period denied access of basic services to many Black people. People in rural areas and people staying in townships were not provided with the same quality of water as the people in the former White areas. After the 1994 elections, the government changed the law to ensure that everyone in South Africa had access to the same quality of water. The Ministry, under the leadership of the then Minister K Asmal ensured that the law was changed.

The right to access to quality water was an important concern of the government. The irrigation schemes operated in such a way that all who accessed or lived in these communities had the right to access clean water. The government changed the manner in which water was utilised by a certain group and catchment management agencies and water user associations were formed to regulate water services. The Minister maintained that it was important that people were aware of these policies so that equal representation to serve on these structures was ensured. She noted that whether people are literate or not, they needed to be aware of their rights as water is health, and there cannot be any development without water.

Due to limited water resources in South Africa, many problems were noted in service delivery of basic water and sanitation to many Black people. Unlike good infrastructure found in former White areas, Black areas, and mainly rural areas, lacked basic sanitation, in particular.

The national Department has thus far provided water to 10 million out of 15 million people. The President set out a clear objective by stressing that by 2008, ‘everyone must have access to clean running water’. The Ministry, in working toward this goal, needed the assistance of provincial and local government. The issue of sanitation, with the use of the ‘bucket system’ has to be removed to improve the lives of people, and ensure hygienic, disease-free conditions. The monitoring of this service will be high on the agenda for the Department of Water Affairs.

Municipalities

The issue of assisting municipalities was stressed and it was noted that many municipalities did not have the necessary resources and budget to attain the goals set out by the President and the Department. In the past 10 years, the Department has met with the local governments to cooperate on service delivery. When municipalities had problems, assistance was provided. For example, ‘Project Consolidate’, an initiative of the Department of Provincial and Local Government assists and empowers municipalities in various ways of project management in the crucial area of water services. Structures needed to work together and municipalities were structures of the government that were budgeted for. The structures should be concerned with serving the interests of the people and not be concerned with the interests of the structures.

Problems

The Minister highlighted the following problems pertinent to Mpumlanga:

• Many people in Mpumalanga do not have access to clean drinking water.
  The number is approximately 740 000. This is a huge figure.
• Women have to carry buckets of water over long distances.
• 47 000 people needed access to flushing toilets. There were attempts
  to provide toilets, but because of the poor quality, those toilets
  collapsed and were not safe.
• The drought was also a problem. It is important that municipalities do
  not lose out on the assistance that was available to them. The
  Department will try to work with the municipalities.
• There was a problem with water being cut off or stopped. This was
  something that required the collaboration between stakeholders to
  address the problem. For example, the issue of the water that came
  from Bronkhorstspruit – we need to look at how this can reach all the
  people. The department was looking at whether a dam could be built to
  store the water so that it could reach at least 30% more people.

Payment for services

Although water is a natural resource, much is expended on purification services. Whilst the government is prepared to offer 25 litres of free water per household, other means of payment toward costs have to be accounted for and paid for by the people in various communities. If people have large families, and believe that the 25 litres is insufficient, they must report that to the municipality so that the municipality might be able to assist. Secondly, if there is a child in the household that is working, then there is money to pay for water.

Municipalities are responsible for the purification of water, ensuring that water services are paid for and installing of meters. The installation of meters is essential as it measures the amount of water utilised per household. Councillors are not responsible for any policy governing the payment of water and therefore communities should not use the re-elections or nomination of councillors as a bargaining tool during elections.

Issues raised by members of the public

The community raised the following issues and concerns:

• Access points to water supply is a major concern.
• There is a need to inform people about the policy of ‘free basic
  water’ service and who qualifies.
• The quality of water supplied to the community is poor.
• Poor service delivery, particularly by contractors contracted for
  water infrastructure maintenance (such as taps).
• Allegations regarding corrupt officials, affects the preparedness of
  communities to pay for water services provided.
• There is a need to clarify what SALGA is doing to assist in the
  elimination of the bucket system and installation of a proper
  sanitation system in some communities.
• What type of assistance is available to poor communities that cannot
  afford to pay water bills and services, and these include schools and
  crèches, even after consuming the free quota allocation.
• Steps need to be taken to improve infrastructure, access and supply of
  water to schools.
• Poor interaction with local councillors.
• Lack of access and proper sanitation for people living in informal
  settlements.
• There is a need to improve efficiency and effectiveness in servicing
  and maintaining water pipes and related infrastructure.
• There is a need to improve the responsiveness of public officials and
  their cooperation.
• There is a need to clarify policy regarding boreholes and whether the
  community is required to pay for this service.
• Attention should be paid to people living on farms; they also need
  access to clean, quality water.
• The supply and access to water should be brought closer to people, as
  many have to travel long distances to draw water.

In response to the issues raised, the Minister noted the following:

• With regard to the issue of water delivery, the public were encouraged
  to approach the relevant officials of the Department, so that they
  were able to investigate and to respond to the problems that were
  raised.
•  With regard to the “cutting off” of water when there were problems
  around the payment water, the Minister emphasised that all people
  should always have access to water. There should be a way of planning
  to ensure that payments are made. Water should not be “cut off”.
  Preventing access to water would have other effects that were contrary
  to the Constitution.
• There were problems with the billing system. There were areas with no
  meters. There were people who get their water from boreholes. There
  were those who get water from communal taps. These people were getting
  free water. It was important that the system was fair and that it
  ensured that everyone paid for the water that they used.
• The government was committed to taking the needs of its people into
  account and there were laws and systems in place to ensure that public
  representatives and public officials carried out their work properly
  to ensure a better quality of life of all the people.
• With regard to the concerns of the emerging farmers, the Minister
  confirmed that there was money available to assist them. There was
  also a process that needed to be followed with regard to farmers
  having access to water.
• With regard to the deadline of 2008, the Minister emphasised that the
  budgets were being compiled on the basis of the existing numbers. It
  was a challenge to keep track of how much water would be needed by
  2008. It was important that the three spheres of government, local,
  provincial and national government work together to reach the
  deadline.
• On the issue of preserving water, the Minister encouraged the public
  to be alert and to not waste water by simply leaving taps to run free.



• Presentation by Councillor D Ndlovu, SALGA, on the Provision of Water
  and the related problems faced by municipalities

Councillor Ndlovu stated that his presentation would focus on the following:

• To update the NCOP on water service delivery issues in Mpumalanga.
• To highlight progress made and challenges faced.

Councillor Ndlovu stated that SALGA held a National Conference in September

1. The National Conference considered issue of:

• Accelerating service delivery (water and sanitation, housing,
  electricity), poverty alleviation and job creation, integrating the
  public sector, gender equity and quality, SALGA’s role in Africa and
  internationally.

SALGA also conducted an audit on service delivery that was presented at the Conference.

In general, Water Services Authorities (WSA) have as part of their plans in the 2004/05 financial year to provide:

• Water to 409 175 households, and
• Sanitation to 336 223 households (hence the presidential target of 3
  000 sanitation units (minimum) will be met).

The National Conference Declaration stressed the role of municipalities to ensure that the Presidential targets are achieved by identifying:

• Blockages to delivery.
• Measures to address blockages/capacity and support required.
• Early-warning monitoring mechanisms.

Regarding the National Audit, only 10 of 17 WSAs in Mpumalanga responded to the questionnaire, and they have as their targets (collectively) in 04/05, to provide:

• Water: 65 836 households.
• Sanitation: 52 501 households.

SALGA –DWAF Water Summit

In October 2003, a SALGA-DWAF Water Summit was held. The Water Summit Declaration emphasised (amongst others), the following:

• The need to eliminate basic water supply and basic sanitation services
  backlogs.
• WSAs to ensure that the equitable share is increasingly used for
  provision of free basic services.

What are the implementation constraints to transfer?

  • Making sure the right water services provider arrangements are in
    place [section 78 processes].
  • Making sure the financial arrangements are suitable.
  • Addressing personnel issues to ensure the right skills, COS,
    remuneration, benefits (pension, medical aid).
  • Ensuring sustainable infrastructure.

1. Theme 8: The impact of the EPWP, and other programmes directed to the creation of jobs’ on the people of Mpumalanga

   • Presentation by the Hon. Prof. N. Kganyago, Deputy Minister of Public Works

The Deputy Minister of Public Works opened his presentation by providing a background on factors that gave rise to the growing unemployment in the country. The challenge facing the newly elected Government after 1994 was to deal with poverty, unemployment, absence of essential services including inadequate infrastructure among other things. The Department of Public Works has been called upon to use its competencies such as infrastructure development, immovable property management and public works programme coordination to alleviate poverty and create a better life for all.

Prof. Kganyago pointed out that, despite the economic upswing experienced by the country, many South Africans still languish in poverty, unable to access job opportunities mainly due to lack of skills, training and development. Since 1994, Government has been exploring the use of public works programmes to alleviate poverty, create jobs and build the necessary infrastructure among the poor communities. The EPWP is therefore the product of such an evolution in Government policy thinking and development.

• Presentation by the Hon. Ms L.N. Sisulu, Minister of Housing

Minister Sisulu highlighted the fact that Mpumalanga has an unemployment rate of 25,7%. This is in spite of the improvements that have been made during the past 10 years, which means more urgent and concerted efforts are needed in this province to curb unemployment. The Minister pointed out that over the past 10 years, on the implementation of the housing programme, government spent close to R30 billion. This rate of delivery, unprecedented by global standards, translates into the delivery of 1,6 million houses, despite the population growth of 2,1% per annum. Thus, the key to fighting poverty and creating employment is in introducing policies that directly impact on households and can enable these to limit their dependency ratios.

The Comprehensive Plan for Integrated Sustainable Human Settlements, which was approved by Cabinet last year, has the above-stated objectives. The objectives included in the Plan are the following:

• It seeks to utilise the opportunities created in housing delivery such as the installation of infrastructure, the actual construction of houses, the construction of social/economic infrastructure and the management and maintenance of housing stock, to create jobs. • SMMEs are recognized for their potential in job creation, and the Comprehensive Plan commits government and the Department to enhance and develop the capacity of this sector. Local government in this regard is allocated specific responsibilities of developing plans that will achieve the objectives. • To create a conducive environment for private sector and the construction industry to maximize its capacity to employ and invest.

The Minister of Housing further pointed out that government is contributing to employment in the construction industry and in 2004 there have been increases overall in the building statistics. Even municipalities reflect increases in passed building plans and Mpumalanga municipalities in particular reported increases of 18,8% in building plans for residential buildings that have been completed when compared to the same period in

1. Minister Sisulu emphasised that government needs to ensure that performance of the housing and building industry is strengthened to ensure the creation of jobs. In conclusion, the Minister noted that in Mpumalanga, unlike recent trends in other provinces, there is a decrease in the number of households living in informal settlements, reflecting that there is housing delivery in the province.

2. Address by the Deputy President Jacob Zuma to the special sitting of the National Council of Provinces, KwaMhlanga, Mpumalanga Province

The Deputy President commended the initiative of the NCOP in Taking Parliament to the People. He maintained that the form in which this programme was undertaken, provided the content to the provisions of the Constitution, that is, to ensure that provincial interests are taken into account.

He stressed that the concept of cooperative governance within our system of government with national, provincial and local spheres provides an excellent example of the development of democracy that is founded on the principle of the participation of the people.

In tracing the evolution of democracy in South Africa, he stressed the importance of the Freedom Charter, which grounds democracy, post-apartheid period. He maintained that the Freedom Charter, adopted by the Congress of the People in Kliptown on 26 June 1955 was the first of its kind in the history of this country, both in size and representivity, as well as in content, as it encapsulates the type of government, and country the people wanted.

In highlighting the role of the NCOP in the Taking Parliament to the People programme, he stressed the following:

• The examination of the implementation of recently passed local
  government legislation was vital to Parliament’s oversight function.
  In bringing this process to the provinces, it provides a useful forum
  to sharpen the thinking and deepen the understanding of the people’s
  concerns and problems as Members of Parliament.
• In provincial sittings, many issues that require the urgent attention
  of government in each of the three spheres are exposed.

In reference to the President’s address to the NCOP in November 2004, he focused on local government and mentioned the challenges that affect local government. Prominent among these were the following:

• The lack of capacity in local government to deliver basic services to
  the people, even where resources are available.

Implicit in his address, the Deputy President, suggested the following recommendations to address the above issue:

• The report to Cabinet, due in May 2005, by the Forum of South African
  Directors-General (FOSAD) on the review of the functioning of the
  government system as a whole, and the proposals, particularly on the
  capacity, skills and competence within the Public Service will provide
  valuable information on the types of tools needed to address concerns
  about the government system.
• The issue of capacity confirms that the necessary skills with the
  proper personnel are needed to implement policies.
• There is a need to strengthen partnerships with other stakeholders in
  society, for example, the institutions of higher learning, to gauge
  the role they can play in partnership with government to resolve the
  issue of capacity building.
• There is also a need to improve internal communication within the
  Public Service, to ensure that public servants understand the mission
  and vision as well as the programme of action of government.
• The NCOP has a unique role to play with regard to local government,
  particularly when the Provincial Executive needs to intervene in a
  particular municipality.  In terms of the Constitution, such an
  intervention must be reported to the NCOP, which also has the power to
  end the intervention by disapproving of it.  The NCOP also has the
  responsibility of reviewing the intervention regularly.
• A need exists to ensure that interventions do not become the norm.
  This can be done by assisting and strengthening local government
  before the problems reach crisis point.  It is imperative that the
  focus is on building capacity, particularly in smaller municipalities
  to ensure that basic services such as water and electricity reach the
  poorest of the poor.

In focusing on the role of the NCOP, and provincial legislatures, he stressed the importance of the commitment by all spheres of government to boost provincial economies to ensure sustainable development, job creation and poverty eradication.

In citing various examples of the progress made in service delivery of basic services in provinces, he noted the following:

• In the Eastern Cape, ensuring adequate health services has been a
  serious challenge.  In the current financial year, however, the
  government has managed to build five new centres, and renovated 38
  existing ones, while two clinics have been upgraded to health centres.
   Forty-four clinics have been given the necessary equipment to ensure
  they function more effectively.  The province has indicated that the
  shortage of doctors and medicines, in some clinics and hospitals,
  needs urgent attention.
• Mpumalanga has reviewed its Provincial Growth and Developmental
  Strategy, and wants to ensure an alignment of developmental plans by
  provincial departments, and local government structures.
• North West has scored a number of achievements in the past year,
  including successful interventions in municipalities. This has
  entailed strengthening institutional matters such as staff placements,
  performance management, and financial management systems.  This is
  critical, especially as there is a shift of focus in improving local
  government.  The province intervened in the Mafikeng and Mamusa
  Municipalities, and continues to administer provincial interventions
  in the Maquassi, Kgetleng Municipalities and Lekwa-Teemane.  The
  province reported that the financial distress of Lekwa-Teemane had
  been addressed the municipality is on track.  Mafikeng’s cash flow has
  also improved, and the municipality is no longer on an overdraft.
• Limpopo is utilising its strategic location as the heartland of the
  Southern African Development Community (SADC) as a strong source of
  building relationships with the rest of Africa.  In addition, there is
  a strong focus on building infrastructure, ensuring sustainable
  economic development, and to boost agriculture in order to capture
  even the SADC market.
• Western Cape has faced the challenge of healing past divisions and
  seeks now to build human capital, particularly amongst the youth, and
  to accelerate economic development.
• Kwazulu-Natal is also focusing on healing and normalising the
  political relations in the province across party lines, and to achieve
  closure on the impact of past political violence.
• Gauteng’s five-year plan commits the provincial government to work
  tirelessly with the people of Gauteng to achieve the following
  objectives, to:

     o Stimulate faster economic growth and drastically reduce
       unemployment.
     o Fight poverty and build secure and sustainable communities.
     o Deepen democracy and nation-building, and realise the
       constitutional rights of all the people.
     o Build an effective and caring government.

                        TUESDAY, 24 MAY 2005

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Council of Provinces

1. Messages from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces in respect of Bills passed by Assembly and transmitted to Council

 (1)    Bill passed by National Assembly on 24 May 2005 and transmitted
 for concurrence:


     (i)     Intergovernmental Relations Framework Bill [B 3B – 2005]
          (National Assembly – sec 75)


    The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on Local
    Government and Administration of the National Council of Provinces.

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Finance

   (a) Convention between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Democratic Republic of Congo for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996 (Act No 108 of 1996).

   (b) Explanatory Memorandum on the Double Taxation Convention between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Democratic Republic of the Congo.

   (c) Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Kingdom of Norway regarding Mutual Assistance between their Customs Administrations, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996 (Act No 108 of 1996).

   (d) Explanatory Memorandum on the Customs Agreement between the Republic of South Africa and the Kingdom of Norway.

2. The Minister of Home Affairs

   A list of approved early naturalisation applications in terms of section 5(9) of the South African Citizenship Act, 1995 (Act No 88 of 1995).

3. The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development

   (a) Proclamation No R.13 published in Government Gazette No 27406 dated 22 March 2005: Commencement of the Judicial Matters Second Amendment Act, 2003 (Act No 55 of 2003).

   (b) Government Notice No R.250 published in Government Gazette No 27406 dated 22 March 2005: Amendment of Regulation in terms of the Judges Remuneration and Conditions of Employment Act, 2001 (Act No 47 of 2001). (c) Government Notice No R.251 published in Government Gazette No 27406 dated 22 March 2005: Amendment of Mediation in Certain Divorce Matters Regulation in terms of the Mediation in Certain Divorce Matters Act, 1987 (Act No 24 of 1987).

[1] For a detailed report encompassing all components of the Taking Parliament to the People programme, please refer to the comprehensive document of 92 pages, available from the Office of the Secretary to the NCOP.