THURSDAY, 9 JUNE 2005 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

                                ____

The Council met at 15:02.

The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

                          YOUTH PARLIAMENT


                         (Draft Resolution)

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): I wish to welcome all the special delegates from the provinces and also the hon national Minister of Transport Mr Radebe.

                       YOUTH PARLIAMENT LAUNCH

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I move without notice: That the Council - (1) recognises that South Africa will be celebrating national Youth Day on 16 June; (2) acknowledges that the first ever Youth Parliament to be held during the term of the democratic Parliament of South Africa will be launched on 10 June 2005; and

       (3)   resolves that the Chamber of the National Council of
       Provinces be used on Tuesday, 14 June 2005 to hold the historic
       first sitting of the Youth Parliament from 09h00 to 13h00.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): I shall first ascertain that all the delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. Are all the delegation heads present?

In accordance with Rule 71 I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of vote, if they so wish.

We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour of or against or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Mr M O ROBERTSEN: Eastern Cape supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): Free State?

Mr T MARAIS: Vrystaat steun. [Free State supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): Gauteng?

Mr M GUGUNBELE: Gauteng agrees.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr D D GAMEDE: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): Limpopo?

Ms S MONGENA: Limpopo ea ethega. [Limpopo supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): Mpumalanga?

Mr N MKALIPHI: Ea sekela. [Mpumalanga supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): Northern Cape?

Mr K SINCLAIR: Northern Cape supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: North West is in favour.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): Western Cape?

Mr N MACK: Wes-Kaap steun. [Western Cape supports.]

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                         NATIONAL PORTS BILL


            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chair, hon members, government regulations have been around for a very long time. Even in ancient Babylon governments imposed wage and price restrictions. In medieval Europe religious scholars and church leaders strongly advocated that businesses charge no more than the just price. For many years the Catholic Church regulated interest rates through its usury doctrines.

Nevertheless, the standard historical interpretation says that this regulatory episode served the public interest, both yours and mine. Today’s theory of regulation lends support to the fact that the bureaucracy was small, the motives of the regulator were unimpeachable, and knowledge was sufficiently complete to preclude error.

The National Ports Bill has its origin in the White Paper on National Commercial Ports Policy, which was adopted by Cabinet in March 2002. The aim of the ports policy is to ensure affordable, internationally competitive, efficient and safe port services based on the application of commercial rules in a transparent and competitive environment that is applied consistently across the transport system.

This paper identified that an efficient port required both adequate infrastructure, superstructure and equipment, as well as good communications, information technology systems and a dedicated, skilled management team with a motivated and trained work force.

It also proposed that in order to ensure that our ports continue to contribute towards our international competitiveness, the separation of the ports authority and the ports operations components had to take place. This has already taken place with the separation of the National Ports Authority and ports operation functions within Transnet.

Since that separation, there has been an additional impulsion to an ongoing effort to upgrade facilities and equipment. The White Paper also further proposed the creation of a sector regulator for ports in our country. The ultimate objective for the restructuring of the ports, is to improve the competitive position of the commercial ports in our country, so that they are supportive of the broader national economic interest.

I am therefore pleased to say that in the week of the National Ports Bill reaching finality, the Department of Transport has already begun the process of setting up the independent ports regulator, which will be established to prevent abuse of power by the ports authority; to ensure equality of access to the provision of port services; to monitor the business relationship between Transnet and the authority; to ensure that it does not derive an unfair advantage over other transport companies; and also to ensure that the revenues generated by the authority are used to the benefit of the authority and all its customers.

The key stakeholders in the ports sector have already welcomed this process of setting up the independent ports regulator, as it is seen as an institution of recourse against any potential or actual abuse of power. It further creates certainty towards a fair, equitable access to the provision of ports services.

It is worth noting that over the last five years, the economic growth of African countries has exceeded the average growth rate of the last decade. Similarly, export volumes of African countries have grown by 2,5% over the past three years, during a period when the volume of world exports actually contracted by 1,5%.

It is now common knowledge that currently freight transport is not meeting the needs of customers in terms of cost and service. Those customers who are central to the growth strategy of our nation, namely the exporters of value-added and manufactured goods, especially experience the impact of many of these challenges. Commercial ports, as we all know, play a very critical role in South Africa’s transport logistics and socio-economic development.

It is interesting to note that 90% of world trade is seaborne and approximately 98% of South Africa’s exports are conveyed by sea. These figures illustrate the point that our economy depends largely on our ports. Ports play a vital role in all countries of the world, as they are the very essence of the country’s economy.

Ports can be seen as a country’s barometer of its integration into the global market place, and at the same time as a critical support system for its international trade. By enacting this National Ports Bill I would like to reiterate the ports’ economic objectives that will be met. Amongst other things, at a microeconomic level, we believe that there will be an improvement in external trade competitiveness by reducing transport costs, in particular the cost of port services, and in port efficiency at the sea- land interface.

This Bill will ensure more cost-effective ports operation and services, which will allow for more efficient use of transport assets, a more competitive position in transport markets, and more opportunities in growing sectors, in particular the container operations.

The Bill will have a direct impact of lowering maritime freight cost of imported goods and intermediate products, as well as enhance the competitiveness of our exports. We also believe that the Bill will promote Black Economic Empowerment, and small, medium and micro enterprises in the ports sector. All these effects, in terms of the benefits to the economy, will eventually lead to lower prices for consumer goods and better access to a wider range of products through improved access and increased competition between various suppliers.

In conclusion, the successful conclusion of this Bill will ensure a favourable ports environment in South Africa, and create certainty and confidence that the industry requires for investment in our ports. The ports regulator, as I have indicated, will play a fundamental role in ensuring that the rules are very clear for all players in the industry. I therefore humbly request that this honourable House support this Bill. [Applause.]

Mr R J TAU: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, guests from provinces, comrades and friends, I would like to take the opportunity to comment on the historic nature of this debate today. As a committee, having considered the Bill as presented to us by the department, we came to realise that this particular Bill provides this Parliament with another historic opportunity for reflection.

Firstly, it is obvious that the nature and structure of the South African economy is skewed, and this Parliament is hard at work to ensure that it works for all who live in South Africa. Secondly, it is common knowledge that the manner in which the economy and, in particular, our port system is working is not responsive to the global dictates and therefore denies us an opportunity to be global and continental trendsetters.

As a developing country we are challenged to improve our infrastructure in such a way that it will be able to respond to these challenges and, in doing that, will ensure that at the end of the day we should be on our own. As a result, we need to start with first things first, and in so doing we need to do them right. One of these is the restructuring of our port system and infrastructure.

The restructuring of our economy and a key component of it should at all times be informed by fundamentals that are geared at increasing the levels of investment, not only international investment but local as well; including investment from the Southern African Development Community. The movement of goods for the satisfaction of human needs is of primary importance, and therefore it must be comprised of correct systems that will ensure efficiency and reliability. Therefore our ports must be able to respond to such challenges.

This is what this Bill before us seeks to achieve, that is, to improve the efficiencies of our port operations, and in the process of doing that it will set standards that will ensure that there is fair and clear competition standards in certain port operations.

The only grey area that perturbs me, since I stand here as a son of the Northern Cape, is that I am not sure to what degree, and when, our province and in particular Port Nolloth Harbour will benefit. However, I am not aggrieved because I know for a fact that everything has got a starting point, and therefore I will go back to the province and explain to them that perhaps we need to work a bit harder in order for us to benefit from the objectives, as stated in this piece of legislation.

It is quite interesting to note that the changes and trends in the global arena had resulted in 95% of cargo being carried in containers and that led to congestion at the Durban container terminal. Coupled with our macroeconomic policy that advocates, although not solely, for an export- driven export, this has resulted in a situation indicative of ports not being able to respond to these challenges as a result of the large volumes.

This kind of situation has negative implications for our country, as it holds back the development or growth of our economy. The implications even go further in that holding the economy back serves as an instrument that will not allow us to create jobs for the unemployed and promote the development of SMMEs, and will lead to a general lack of provision of key and strategic services to our people.

We are all aware in this House that, historically, the ports policy of South Africa under the apartheid regime was unaffordable, ineffective and inefficient and very monopolistic in nature and character. While it was meant to benefit one section of South African society, the white working class or emerging farmers who relied on export at the time could not have access to it. Today we are clear that whilst it will not benefit Oom Kloppers in the Upington wine refineries, the owner of the farm is definitely going to benefit as a result of the infrastructure that will be put in place.

This Bill is in direct contrast with past practices and seeks to allow fair competition, improve infrastructure at service levels and establish appropriate institutional systems and legislation in order to support the governance of the South African ports. By so doing, we will increase international trade by putting systems in place that will promote international competitiveness and, at the same time, promote Black Economic Empowerment and support of small, medium and micro enterprises.

It is the view of the committee that Black Economic Empowerment promotion must be broad-based. We wish to see a situation where more women and young people participate in the beneficiation process of this entire restructuring and the opportunities, of course, coming to them.

Amongst the key issues we supported very strongly was the preferential procurement policy for the previously disadvantaged and, in particular, the emphasis was put on support for co-operatives. It is also our view that we need not be apologetic, of course, in implementing our policies because the more we explain our objectives to our detractors, the more we waste precious time during which poor people could have been empowered. As the long title of the Bill states, I quote:

To provide for the establishment of the National Ports Authority and the Ports Regulator; to provide for the administration of certain ports by the National Ports Authority; and to provide for the matters connected therewith.

Therefore the main functions of the regulator, as stipulated in Bill, is to exercise economic regulation of the ports system in line with government’s strategic objectives; promote equity of access to ports and the facilities and services provided in the ports; monitor the activities of the authority; and ensure that it performs its functions as prescribed by the Act. Therefore, the regulator will be responsible for hearing complaints and appeals, and for investigating such complaints; and negotiating and concluding agreements with the Competition Commission in order to harmonise jurisdiction over competition matters.

It is therefore quite clear that the intention is noble in that it seeks to separate functions so as to avoid duplications and to stop the constant running around like a headless chicken, where you find the player and referee are the same body, which leads to bias in taking decisions that are fundamentally important to the development of our economy.

It is also common knowledge that as we debate this important instrument of economic development, the country, but in particular the ANC, is grappling with the notion of development and underdevelopment, and in so doing, is drawing from the experiences of other countries in relation to dealing with poverty and joblessness.

Without getting into the details of the subject matter, it is however important to bring to the attention of this august House the fact that, as South Africa and Africa, we are on our own. For the purpose of fighting poverty and creating work for our people, as South Africans, we need to rely on our own limited resources. It is for that reason that I say it is through such efforts as the Bill which we are debating today that we can say that we are on the right path. We need to find our own way of ensuring that whatever we do is for the benefit of the poor, rural masses that find themselves far away in the corners of this beautiful country and on the periphery of the economy.

How I wish that, as we debate this policy, young people could have been in the gallery listening to the contents and, of course, in particular to the Minister, so as to be able to seize the opportunities provided in this Bill. However, I take the liberty of representing them because as I stand here I think I still fall within the category. [Interjections.] Perhaps it is my responsibility to go back to the young people to explain to them that the theme of Youth month, to create youth employment and fight poverty, can make concrete and practical sense if you relate it to this particular Bill.

I take the opportunity to remember the late former Minister of Transport, the hon Dullah Omar. In dealing with this matter before us, he had this to say in his ministerial foreword . . . [Time expired.]

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: Hon Minister, Madam Chair and members, the ANC has passed much good legislation since its advent to power and this Bill is one of them. The DA therefore supports this legislation and its intention to plough money into our national ports with a view to increasing efficiency and revenue, as well as to establish an independent ports regulator.

Maar die ANC-regering het ongelukkig ’n swak rekord wanneer dit kom by die implementering van goeie wetgewing. Baie ure se harde werk is gewy aan hierdie wetgewing en dit is vir diegene in beheer om toe te sien dat hierdie wetgewing afgedwing word. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[But unfortunately the ANC government has a poor record when it comes to implementing good legislation. Many hours of hard work has been devoted to this legislation and therefore those in control have a responsibility to ensure that this legislation is enforced.]

The DA trusts that Maria Ramos will use this mandate to address the problems that severely hampered progress and professionalism at our ports. Urgent improvement is needed to infrastructure and training, as well as operations between the ports and in-land transportation systems. It is our contention that so-called transformation has adversely affected the skills base at our harbours. Many of us can attest to the fact that at our major harbours there are massive backlogs in the offloading of containers and a serious shortage of manpower on tugs and pilot boats, causing very expensive delays in ship movement.

My kollega in die NV agb Farrow het hom al gereeld in die verlede uitgespreek oor die groot agterstand wat ervaar word met die aflaai van vraghouers en die bottelnek van skepe in die hawens van Durban en Kaapstad. ’n Bydraende faktor is die feit dat daar in sommige gevalle in plaas van 24- uurskofte, slegs 12-uurskofte gewerk word in van hierdie hawens. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[My colleague in the NA, hon Farrow, has regularly in the past commented on the huge backlog that is experienced with the offloading of freight containers and the bottleneck of ships in the harbours of Durban and Cape Town. A factor that contributes to this is the fact that in some instances only 12-hour instead of 24-hour shifts are worked at some of these ports.]

All of this is indicative that right now the ports authority falls far short of international standards and needs to get its act together rapidly in order to attract competitive trading and ensure the safety of all vessels calling at our ports. If and when the provisions of this legislation materialise, the DA will keep a close watch to ensure that the consequent successes are not used to bail out SAA or any other failing entity in the Transnet fleet. Insofar as the ports regulator is concerned, we in the DA hope that it will truly sail an independent course in watching over the new authority’s performance in accordance with this Act and in ensuring the efficient and safe operation of our ports. Dit is van kritieke belang dat hierdie onafhanklike outoriteit die privaatsektor gaan toelaat om vrylik te beweeg om tariewe te beheer en sodoende gesonde kompetisie aan te moedig. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[It is of crucial importance that this independent authority will permit the private sector to move freely in order to control tariffs and consequently encourage healthy competition.]

We trust that this Act will chart a fresh, new direction for our National Ports Authority. The DA supports this Bill. [Applause.]

Mr F ADAMS: Deputy Chairperson, hon Ministers, members . . .

U weet, Minister, die ou mense het altyd gesê dat jy baie versigtig moet slaap as jou politieke opponente en vyande skielik met jou vrede maak. Dan moet jy baie onrustig slaap! (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[You know, Minister, the old people always used to say that you must sleep with one eye open if your political opponents and enemies suddenly make peace with you. Then you should sleep very uneasily!]

Chairperson, the sustainability of business operations is no longer regarded as a discretionary business practice. It has become an international imperative for businesses to conduct their operations in a manner that does not compromise the environment, society at large, or those stakeholders directly or indirectly influenced by their operations.

The ports of Southern Africa play the most important role in the economies of each country and those of neighbouring landlocked members of the Southern Africa Development Community. Approximately 95% of all trade to the region passes through these ports, and those of East Africa provide a vital link in the logistic chain that binds the countries of Southern Africa inextricably together. If one port experiences any kind of delay or congestion, the effect is often felt across the entire region.

Chairperson, this Bill must fulfil the mandate given by the majority of South Africans to deliver. Anything less is unacceptable and consequently there is the opportunity to redress past imbalances while simultaneously infusing the business with the spirit of product service and the process of delivery.

Chair, before I conclude, I just want to say that I think very soon the DA will support the Freedom Charter. They are on the brink of supporting it, but they do not want to come out positively and show that they do support it. They first want to make a noise before supporting the Freedom Charter of South Africa and accepting it like the NNP did. The NNP supports this Bill. I thank you.

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN: Hon Deputy Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members and special delegates, as hon members are aware, the National Ports Bill was first introduced in Parliament three years ago, and finally passed in the National Assembly during March of this year.

The National Ports Bill seeks to give effect to the provision of the White Paper on commercial ports policies, which includes the following: to increase the level of investment in ports and related infrastructure; the introduction of competition in certain ports operations; Black Economic Empowerment; and a developed, efficient and productive port industry capable of contributing to the economic growth of this country.

It also seeks to establish a central management structure, the National Ports Authority to ensure that all port users have equal access to port services and decisions are to be made in a more transparent and nondiscriminatory manner. It also seeks to ensure that there is no abuse of market power. The growth of manufactured exports has increased to such an extent that our ports’ infrastructure and systems are lagging behind.

In 2003 the country’s ports were responsible for the movement of over 12O million tons of exports and 39 million tons of imports. These tonnages were focused to grow rapidly. And as the hon Minister has said, these figures tell one simple story - that we better get our ports working faster, better and more efficiently and get it right. The pressure is on to perform properly even beyond global standards, even again with geographical location to keep our economy afloat in a highly competitive environment.

Chairperson, it is therefore important to transform South African ports into global competitive operations, operating at internationally acceptable levels of operational efficiency. That will address not only the increase in port tariffs, due to government’s microeconomic, export-driven policies, but also the increase in container transport, which has resulted in ports being unable to respond to the growing demand in international trade.

The Bill will ensure that the National Ports Authority will remain within the Transnet family. With Transnet being the sole shareholder, this will significantly support the four-point, turnaround strategy adopted by the Transnet Board of Directors recently. It also provides a platform to embark on an ambitious capital investment programme in the National Ports Authority. This was announced earlier and includes R2,9 billion for the building of the Durban harbour entrance expansion, and the redesign of the berth line in the Durban harbour; and R1,4 billion for the expansion of Cape Town’s container terminal.

Chairperson, while this will clearly impact positively on the infrastructure, it will also provide opportunities in the capital market, as part of the funding will have to be raised in the market. This will constitute a major boost for Black Economic Empowerment, and will no doubt benefit the small and medium enterprises and the second economy. The passage of the National Ports Bill will provide a more predictable environment for the operations of our ports, and will further stepup the business process of re-engineering and unlocking operations, efficiencies and synergies to promote economic growth by cutting the costs of doing business in South Africa.

Chairperson, the advent of the independent ports regulator, as envisaged by the Bill, will not only enhance the integrity of the transport tariffs policy announced earlier this year, but its main function will include some of the things that the previous speakers have alluded to.

Chairperson, I want the DA to listen to this - it is pleasant to learn that the service levels of our ports have already improved significantly. The strongest single signal of this improvement was given when the major shipping lines such as the Mediterranean Shipping Company, which handled 38% of the containers moving through the Durban container terminal, Safmarine and Deutsche Afrika line lifted the US$100 dollar per container port congestion surcharge. This surcharge that has cost cargo owners over R1 billion was imposed in 2003 in response to the inefficiencies at these terminals that forced shipping lines to wait up to four days for a berth.

In conclusion, the National Ports Bill is about the modernisation and the efficient operations of the ports. The provisions in the Bill will go a long way in making sure that our policy objectives are realised, and that they are flexible enough to take into account the policy and strategy reviews for port development that may emerge in future. In this way it is therefore not only about short-term financial considerations, but also in line with the long-term policy goals of a more modern port infrastructure operations that meet the challenges of our growing economy. This is a further victory for the people’s contract and the development of South Africa, and the African Continent as a whole. The ANC supports this Bill. I thank you.

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Thank you, Chairperson.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): Hon Minister, you may use the podium here.

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: No, I am cool here, Madam Chair. Thanks for the offer nevertheless. I would like to thank all the hon members who have participated in this debate, namely C J van Rooyen, F Adams, J Terblanche and R J Tau.

In response to the issues that have been raised, I really appreciate the unanimous support by this House for the Bill, which reflects the seriousness with which all of us view this issue of the ports in South Africa.

On the issue of proceeds, the hon Terblanche should be aware that that is precisely the reason why there is a ports regulator; to make sure that all the proceeds of our ports are used for the benefit of our ports. The ports regulator will ensure that it does happen, because there are many challenges that we are facing in South Africa at the moment; in particular, this expected 25% growth of cargo trade in South Africa. We need to be prepared for that to happen.

With this Bill and all the efforts that we are making within the maritime sector as a whole we are geared towards promoting economic growth in South Africa. If you look at Gauteng, for example, there is no coastline, but if you look at the traffic between Gauteng and Durban you will see that the issue of ports is of such crucial importance to the economy of Gauteng. This is also the case in the Northern Cape and other provinces.

We are going to make sure, as I have indicated last week, that we finalise what we call a national freight logistics strategy for government. We are going to take into account all these initiatives of government on the transport and logistics side, so that we develop all corridors in South Africa, be it in Johannesburg, Durban, the Western Cape or the Northern Cape. I want to assure the hon comrade that we have not forgotten the Northern Cape.

Our commitment is not compromised on the issue of BEE, especially if one looks at the Bill in relation to the maritime charter that was agreed to by government and all stakeholders in December 2003. This Bill will further accelerate the speedy implementation of the maritime charter in South Africa, whose main focus is to ensure that the previously excluded people of our country also participate in the maritime sector. It goes with the preferential procurement policy.

In conclusion, South Africa is a maritime nation but sometimes I get the impression that we don’t internalise the challenges that we face in the maritime sector, especially the previously excluded. There are so many opportunities in the maritime sector. We shall embark upon a programme of popularising all the things that are happening within the maritime sector in South Africa. There are many initiatives that are aimed at bringing back our people into this sector and one of them I have already highlighted, namely the maritime charter. I hope hon members have copies of it because when they go to their constituencies they will be able to inform our people about the opportunities that exist within the maritime charter.

When speaking about South Africa as a maritime nation, we also have made an effort to ensure that we take advantage of this issue and learn from countries such as the Philippines, which have developed the core skills of being seafaring nations. We want to bring that back into South Africa again, because there is a huge potential for job creation within the maritime sector. This can only happen if we are able to attract many of these shipping lines onto the South African register of ships, which we are currently doing.

These are some of the initiatives that we are taking, so that we put the maritime sector at the centre stage of the economic debate in our country because of the role that it can play in supporting the economic growth and development. Thank you for supporting this Bill. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill, subject to proposed amendment, agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

“TAKING PARLIAMENT TO THE PEOPLE: PUTTING OUR PEOPLE FIRST” – EXECUTIVE SUMMARY: MPUMALANGA (Debate on Report)

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Deputy Chairperson, thank you very much for the opportunity that you have given me to participate in this debate today entitled: Taking Parliament to the People: Putting our People First, which was held particularly in the most beautiful province, Mpumalanga. [Applause.] I am glad to participate in this debate.

Let me start by saying that over the last few months in different forums, we have reflected on the programme of Taking Parliament to the People. I think, generally, we acknowledge that the importance of this initiative is aimed at making our Parliament more accessible.

The initiative is an important mechanism for ensuring that we promote popular participation in our democracy. We have a responsibility to mobilise our communities to take part in government, in order to influence the decisions that are taken by government and which have an impact on their lives. That’s very crucial and very important. I think people should understand that.

From this conceptualisation the programme was envisaged to serve as a platform for our people, more especially those who live in the rural areas, to interact with Parliament so that they could influence policies and legislation, which are intended to change their lives for the better. We have all agreed that the success of this programme over the past few years has been resounding. This should add more impetus to our efforts of ensuring popular involvement. But we need to go beyond this and begin to really answer the question of how great an impact that the programme has on the communities we visit, in particular.

Where do we begin to confront this issue? That’s a question that I have to put to the House. Previously, we have said that through this programme we have been able to make headway in our attempt to achieve the following things: firstly to ensure that the communities are aware of representative democracy; and, secondly, to ensure that our people are educated and informed about the work of Parliament, so that they can participate. We have achieved that.

We can say with confidence that through this programme we have begun to achieve these objectives. But we need to interrogate the extent to which we are succeeding in changing their lives for the better. As such, we need to develop a system that we can use to follow up and assess feedback on the issues that are raised by the people, which are contained in the reports, such as the Mpumalanga report that we are debating this afternoon.

I want to propose to the House today that I believe that the time has come for us to develop a set of guidelines for processing these reports, because we don’t have any. For instance, within a specified period of time after we have been to a province we should be able to isolate the issues that were raised and channel them to the relevant committees, which will then develop a follow-up programme. And that’s my proposal.

I understand that the Chairperson of Committees developed a similar programme for KwaZulu-Natal, and we will do so in the case of Mpumalanga. But we need not wait until the House has adopted the report before we map out such a follow-up programme. It would be better if, when we consider the report, we also consider a draft programme of action to be followed up by the committees. The House must endorse that action programme together with the report. That’s the point I am making.

Today, when we adopt this report, we should actually have the action plan with us and approve that action plan so that it becomes our working plan. We can then implement and monitor that working plan in order to see what it is that we have achieved regarding that particular visit to that province. That is my proposal that I put before the House.

I addition, we need to set some time lines for dealing with some of these issues that appear in the report. For instance, we should be able to agree that we will come back to this House within a certain period of time to give progress reports on some of the issues raised in it. I am aware that it will always take us time to receive feedback on all these issues that are raised in the reports, but there are those issues on which we are able to report back on within a short space of time and which do not require us to wait for a comprehensive report-back on the visits. I believe committees can identify such issues and engage with them promptly after such a visit.

For example, after I had spoken to the Minister of Health and the MEC for health and social development in Mpumalanga whilst we were there, immediately during the following week the MEC, together with the Minister, were at KwaMhlanga Hospital to assess the issues that we had raised. What a wonderful thing!

What has the committee done so far to make sure that things have happened after that? That’s what we want. That is the impact and action that we want, so that the people don’t just say, “They were here but nothing has happened”. I was very much impressed when I saw a very quick follow-up by the Minister and the MEC at KwaMhlanga Hospital.

Ideally, before we go to the next province, we should have a scorecard of what we have done and are continuing to do to address the issues raised during our last visit. In this way we will be able to find a systematic way of ensuring that the issues that our people raise are attended to. Otherwise, if we don’t have this system we will not be in a position to make sure that these things are being attended to.

Once we have developed the programme of action and adopted it, together with the report, we should get on the ground and work. Remember, that’s our Vision 2009, in which we said that 70% of our time and resources would be spent on the ground. But the programme of action that we should develop by ourselves must guide that.

It is important that when we develop our programme of action we also engage with the relevant standing committees in the provinces to ensure greater co- operation and effectiveness. One of the things that these visits have highlighted is the need for us to work hard to create awareness of the programmes and services that are available and how the people on the ground should access them. This came out very clearly and strongly while we were in Mpumalanga.

I must say that if our people are not aware of the services that are available, we will hear complaints and the putting of blame on government. Yet government has made the resources and services available. Government has a responsibility to inform the people about the services that they are entitled to and how they can access them. But we equally need to take it upon ourselves as public representatives, more especially during the constituency weeks, to assist in creating more awareness about the services that are designed to assist our people.

The question is: Are we doing this? I am not sure. Some of us will say yes, and some will say no. If not, perhaps this is the right time to begin to popularise the programme, services and the work that the government has done, and is doing, by bringing these to the attention of the communities. If there are challenges in the implementation, let us highlight them so that our people are informed and we are able to take rational decisions because that’s important; we mustn’t hide that.

With regard to taking up the issues raised by our people during these visits, it is critical that we keep a vigilant eye on those issues that cut across provinces, or those that, despite government having taken certain measures to address them, resurface and pose a new challenge. These exercises should be linked to our role of monitoring implementation, because it may be that some of the problems that keep on cropping up require us to revisit the mechanisms that we have in place to address them.

A good example is the issue of a lack of communication at local level, which came up strongly during our interaction with the people in Mpumalanga when they complained about services, only to find out from national Ministers that those particular services had been deployed in their communities. The Local Government: Municipal Structures Act, for instance, enjoins us to create ward committees whose tasks include, among other things, is firstly to participate in taking decisions about the provision of municipal services; and, secondly to communicate and disseminate information on matters of governance.

Local government legislation provides for the establishment of ward committees that will serve as a link between the masses of our people and the local government. This is very important as it serves to ensure that our system of government is rooted amongst the people. Section 16(1) of the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act requires the municipality to develop a culture of municipal governance that complements formal representative government with a system of participatory governance. Section 152(1) of the same Act requires a municipality to provide democratic and accountable government for local communities; and to encourage the involvement of communities and community organisations in the matters that affect local government.

Those are very crucial issues. That’s how they impact on the people whom we are governing, by exposing that democratic government in which they have to participate in. Therefore it is self-evident that the principles of democracy, accountability and involvement imply adequate communication as a two-way exercise between the municipality and the communities that we are leading.

Furthermore, we have to ask the question: Why do we then have a problem with communication if we have the measures to facilitate it? Why do we have this? Perhaps we need to look at whether our ward committees are constituted in such a way that they assist in discharging the responsibilities they are meant to, which include involving communities in the affairs of local government. That might be a problem, I don’t know, but we have to revisit that issue.

Recently, we have witnessed a wave of protests by people complaining about the lack of delivery at local government level. One cannot but ask the question whether these protests are not a symptom of a huge problem around the lack of communication and involvement of our people in our system of local government. There is a need to speed up the pace of delivery, especially at local level. But are people aware of what is being done and the reasons for the slow pace of delivery? I don’t know.

These are questions I am posing that should engage all of us, and which we should go and check upon on the ground. This is the challenge that we are all facing. We should know whether our people are informed about the decisions taken by the leaders and programmes that are in place to advance their development. If not, then what could be the contributory factors when we have legislation that provides a mechanism for the people to become involved in the decisions that affect their communities?

It was heartening - and I want to repeat that it was heartening - to see our people participating actively when we held public sessions in Mpumalanga. I can’t forget that. It keeps on ringing in my mind all the time - the manner in which they engaged us. The public representatives confirmed our position that our people do want to take part in the affairs of Parliament, but they do not have the necessary means to do so. I have repeated this many times: Only those who are well organised, who have the money, and who can afford it, are the ones who can come to Cape Town and participate in the discussion on these issues. But those people in our rural areas don’t have the means to do so.

Whilst I am there, I want to commend certain provinces that have already started embarking on this very same programme. I was told that Mpumalanga has already started with the programme. They are visiting certain districts rather than sitting in Nelspruit. They are going to certain districts to engage with the people. I want to congratulate you on that.

I have also heard that the Free State, Northern Cape and Western Cape have started with that and I want to congratulate them because that’s what we should be doing. Oh! I am told Limpopo has started as well. [Laughter.] I didn’t know about that. So don’t just tell me that you have started when you haven’t. I am told you have started. I want to congratulate you, because it is those people in rural areas who give us a vote, who miss us, and whom we must visit and interact with; who are illiterate; who cannot watch television; who cannot listen to the radio; and who cannot read the papers.

I know that I am taking up much of your time now. In conclusion, the issues that they raised were fundamental to addressing the main challenges, which confront us in the process of speeding up delivery. Our committee needs to interrogate these issues very carefully, so that we can assist in easing the burden of our people.

I would like to conclude by drawing the attention of the members to some of the challenges identified in the workshop of the institutional memory project yesterday, with regard to our programme of Taking Parliament to the People. And the provinces were represented there. These challenges include firstly, following up on our recommendations; secondly, the expectations amongst the people; thirdly, the limited impact of the programme; and fourthly, provincial co-operation.

These are the issues that we need constantly to engage with in our quest to ensure that this vehicle achieves the results it was intended to; which is to change the lives of people for the better by providing them with a platform to influence the process of delivery. I thank you all. [Applause.]

Mr J L MAHLANGU (Mpumalanga): Chairperson, Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP, hon members of the NCOP and special delegates, your visit to Mpumalanga in March this year came at a time when the need continually to interact with our people and to inform them about the government’s programme has become very important. Continuously, we see that if we do not aggressively engage our communities and give them information, we create a void between them and us. The void that is created, if not attended to, can have serious implications, because if people do not have information they tend to act on perceptions that have been created. And these are the issues that the Chairperson has just raised. In nurturing our young democracy we must always remain committed to interfacing with our people.

Your visit also offered our people in the rural areas an opportunity to interact with their leaders and convey their views on service delivery in their areas and issues affecting them. Rural communities have been afforded an opportunity to take part in the affairs of Parliament; and communities have raised a number of issues that affect them directly. As government, the challenge before us is to address the issues raised. We need to increase the number of people who have access to shelter, security, social security, education and better health care.

I will try to address issues that affect a range of departments and I am going to start with the department of local government and housing. The department has been able to assess comprehensively all municipalities in the province. This process focused on the design of a municipal strategy, how it is made operational and the results achieved thereafter. The assessment helped us to understand whether a municipality had developed all the policies that are required by provincial and national legislation; and whether plans put in place are consistent with their strategy, and also if their results are a reflection of both their strategy and operations.

We have done all these things because we realise that for our people to be able to enjoy a better life, local government, that is the sphere closest to them, must be in a position to create a conducive environment for the provision of such services. A total of 443 councillors have been trained in financial management. The department is also in a process of organising further training sessions for officials in municipalities and in the province who have not been able to participate in the training sessions.

The department also supports municipalities on some projects as part of its capacity-building initiatives. These projects include, amongst other things, the asset management and local governance development programme at Ehlanzeni district and Albert Luthuli municipalities; water infrastructure assessment at Emalahleni and Albert Luthuli municipalities, with the aim of addressing the huge water losses; upgrading of roads and taxi ranks and sewerage systems in different municipalities, for example at Siyabuswa Road in Dr J S Moroka Municipality, and developing a provincial policy document guideline on the roles and responsibilities of councillors and officials.

Through the initiatives such as Project Consolidate we have been able to deepen the thrust and impact of existing policies and programmes directed at local government and we accelerated the removal of service delivery backlogs and facilitated implementation. The first wave of engagement with municipalities has been in the form of early deliverables and focused on identified areas requiring immediate and direct support initiatives. Eleven such municipalities from the province have been identified by the national Ministry and are all involved in the early deliverables, that is, quick-win programmes. Those municipalities are Albert Luthuli, Dipaliseng, Dr J S Moroka, Emalahleni, Govan Mbeki, Greater Tubatse, Lekwa, Mkhondo, Msukaligwa, Nkomazi and Thembisile.

With regard to traditional leadership, the province is continuing to build good relationships between institutions of traditional leaders and local government. The importance of finding synergy between these two institutions cannot be overemphasised, especially in a rural province like Mpumalanga. The Mpumalanga traditional leaders and governance Bill has been approved by the executive and has already been tabled in the provincial legislature.

With regard to the matters raised by the youth on the occasion of the visit, most of the issues were centred on the lack of access to information and opportunities. In order for us to ensure that the youth have information on opportunities that have been brought closer to them, the majority of municipalities have appointed either a councillor or an official to be responsible for youth development within their respective municipalities. The challenge now is for these municipalities to build the capacity of these appointed individuals to be equal to the challenge of youth development and local government level. Let me also indicate that the youth commission in the province has started to embark on programmes whereby they interface directly with the youth in the various municipalities. They intensely engage the youth on issues that prepare them for the future.

With regard to matters of the economy and employment, we obviously welcome the return of Eskom to the province. Eskom is bringing back into service three previously decommissioned power stations at Camden, Lomati and Grootvlei. This will result in the creation of about 26 000 jobs directly and indirectly in the province over the next five years. This will also assist in creating permanent jobs. What is very interesting is that all these power stations are in rural areas.

When it comes to matters of agriculture, one of the major challenges that continues to plague our farmers – and this was also raised during the visit of the NCOP – is lack of access to funds, especially accessing loans whilst phasing out outstanding debts. The department of agriculture and land administration has made available grants for agribusiness projects for this financial year and the next. The department is also considering having soft loans to rehabilitate viable projects that are insolvent or liquidated.

We need to change the mindset of our farmers, especially black farmers. They need to move away from farming for household consumption to farming for commercial purposes. Farmers must produce according to market demands, not according to their interests or cultural requirements. The agricultural economics and marketing sectors have embarked on funding value-adding projects to alleviate the marketing problems faced by small-scale farmers.

With regard to matters of health, the Chairperson has already addressed some of the issues. One of the things that we need to do is to create a conducive environment that would attract health workers to rural areas, and that is a major challenge facing us. The problems faced by health workers in these areas result in them abandoning their jobs in search of better working conditions. For example, not so long ago the Department of Health advertised approximately 20 posts in Ntonga Hospital in Nkomazi and only two people applied for those posts. The introduction of scarce skills and rural allowances is used as an incentive to attract scarce skills professionals eg doctors and professional nurses.

As part of the department’s five-year infrastructure development plan accommodation at health facilities has been included. The plan will, however, not meet all accommodation needs of health professionals in the short term. The department is currently investigating the option of refunding community service students and interns for private accommodation, as the provision of accommodation for this category of personnel is the responsibility of the department. If approved, this arrangement will free up existing accommodation, which could be utilised by permanent staff.

In addition to the existing national list of areas and facilities classified as rural, five hospitals and 41 primary health clinic facilities have been reclassified by the department. The plan to have a health science training college at the former Elijah Mango College of Education has been realised. The first group of 100 students started on 1 March 2005, and the second group comprising 200 students started on 1 April 2005. This makes a total of 300 first- year students and it represents a threefold increase in the number of first-year students over the previous years; and it will ultimately result in a significant decrease in the backlog of nurses needed at the health facilities.

The commitment to introduce various training programmes is on track and the department has initiated its own primary health care training programmes for nurses. Eighty-six professional nurses are currently being trained at Witbank Hospital, in partnership with the University of Pretoria.

The department continually encourages all staff members to contribute optimally to the organisation and offers opportunities to staff for personal and professional development. In partnership with our academic partners, the University of Pretoria and Medunsa, the department has embarked on a programme to decentralise specialist training in family medicine and primary health care training for nurses. Twelve hospitals have been identified where doctors would be able to undertake a four-year specialist programme in family medicine. The same sites will be used to train urgently needed primary health nurses.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon MEC, your time has expired. I can give you one minute just to round off – it’s at my discretion.

Mr J L MAHLANGU (Mpumalanga): Chairperson, in conclusion may I indicate that the provincial executive committee has made concerted efforts to tackle one of the problems that you identified, that is the education department, by pulling it out of its performance slump. We hope to address that matter adequately and we are addressing all the issues that were raised during the visit of the NCOP. Some of them have already been addressed by you.

We would, once again, like to applaud the people of Mpumalanga for seizing the opportunity to interact with their elected representatives and make their voices heard. With such interaction we will, together, nurture our democracy to be the child every parent wants to have. I thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Mr J W LE ROUX: Hon Chairperson and colleagues, Taking Parliament to the People is one of the best initiatives the NCOP has undertaken. The reason I say so is because it has brought to our attention the poverty that exists in large parts of our country. It has also brought to our attention the lack of opportunities that many of our rural people are subjected to.

We saw for ourselves the lack of facilities that we in urban areas take for granted, such as good schools, medical services and tarred roads.

Chairperson, I fully agree with you that bringing Parliament to the people will be meaningless if our visits do not result in the improvement of the quality of life of our people. As we all witnessed, deserving initiatives are undertaken to improve the living standards in the rural areas, but the lack of skilled people and the poverty was overwhelming.

As far as health services are concerned, it is clear that we urgently need more doctors and nurses. If you ask any doctor or nurse whether he or she would rather work in Cape Town or in some deep rural area, 99% per cent will choose Cape Town. Obviously, the same applies to teachers, engineers and all highly skilled people.

We as the NCOP must apply our minds and make practical suggestions to government and the provinces to use initiatives to draw these skills to our rural areas. Human nature is such that no amount of forcing or threatening will result in skilled people moving to these areas.

Wat die skole betref wat ons besoek het, was dit duidelik dat daar geweldige probleme is. Die gebrek aan die mees basiese dinge soos klaskamers, onderwysers, toiletgeriewe en sportvelde is skandalig. Dis onmoontlik om onder sulke omstandighede leerlinge te bemagtig en voor te berei vir die toekoms.

Die ANC-regering probeer die hele wêreld se probleme oplos, maar kan nie eers boeke betyds aflewer nie, en kinders sit sonder drinkwater by talle skole. [Tussenwerpsels.] Dis die waarheid. Ná tien jaar van ANC-regering is dit onverklaarbaar dat sulke toestande in ons skole gelate aanvaar word. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[As far as the schools that we visited are concerned, it was clear that there were tremendous problems. The lack of the most basic things like classrooms, teachers, toilets and sports grounds is scandalous. It is impossible to empower learners and prepare them for the future under these circumstances.

The ANC-led government is trying to solve the whole world’s problems, but cannot even deliver books on time, and children are without drinking water at many schools. [Interjections.] It is the truth. After 10 years of ANC government it is inexplicable that such conditions are tolerated at our schools.]

The second major problem in rural Mpumalanga is undoubtedly the lack of employment opportunities. The main reason for poverty in our rural areas is the lack of jobs. The effort by government to create jobs can at best only be short-term solutions, and can only benefit a limited few.

There is a debate on whether government can create sustainable jobs. Unfortunately, the answer is no. Russia is the best example of where the government gave everybody a job until it ran out of capital. Now there is poverty and the private sector must save rural populations from starvation.

It is our duty as the NCOP to urge government to attract private sector investment capital to our rural areas. Investors invest only where it is profitable to do so. That is a fact and nothing will change this truth. Government must offer incentives to lure capital to rural areas; I see no other solution. We as the NCOP witnessed the lack of opportunities and we saw the poverty it caused. We are their elected leaders and we must fight their cause. Small and medium enterprises can only develop if there are people who can afford to buy goods and services. This means that there must be industrial development to start the upward cycle.

I’d like to mention what happened in the Uitenhage area.

Die Nelson Mandela-metropool is ‘n goeie voorbeeld om die voordele van die vestiging van groot industrieë te illustreer. Die oomblik toe motorvervaardigers in die metro vestig, het voorspoed gevolg. Volkswagen op Uitenhage het 7 000 werkers in diens wat ‘n heenkome bied vir 40 000 afhanklikes, en dit is dié tipe ontwikkeling wat ons nodig het. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[The Nelson Mandela metropole is a good example with which to illustrate the benefits of establishing large industries. The moment when motor manufacturers established themselves in this metro, prosperity followed. In Uitenhage Volkswagen employs 7 000 workers, which provides for 40 000 dependants, and it is this type of development that we need.]

The efforts to support and train small-scale farmers were interesting and necessary, but, again, there must be buying power in the local community to purchase produce. Subsistence farming is usually not successful. Kenya is a good example of this. In Kenya the soil is fertile and the rainfall is high, yet the small farmers are exceptionally poor and can hardly survive.

A further problem with small-scale farming in rural areas is that the markets are often too far away to market products successfully. If the community has buying power, farming does become a better proposition and can sustain many people.

Taking Parliament to the people was a logistic nightmare, and also very expensive. In future, much more attention will have to be given to these practical problems. [Interjections.] Thank you.

Mr T RALANE: Chairperson, the hon member is not looking at the clock, he’s not looking at the clock! [Laughter.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Ralane, behave yourself, I’m in the chair. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): Chairperson, hon members, as members of the National Council of Provinces we are humbled by the success of our programme of taking Parliament to the people. The active participation of the people in Mpumalanga and in other provinces previously has proven to us that this programme has the support of our people. Indeed, our people do take advantage of this programme and actively interact with their leaders from national, provincial and local spheres of government.

To some of us the experience obtained during the visits serves as a reminder of the work that still needs to be done to improve the lot of our people. We have witnessed the difficulties that our people still experience and the hardship that is visited on them as a result of the systematic denial of opportunities by the previous apartheid regime. However, our people are also filled with hope as they witness the efforts of our government to speed up the process of delivery and transformation of our society.

Our visit to Mpumalanga has once again strengthened the need for us to work hard towards meeting our constitutional obligation of supporting and strengthening the capacity of government, especially local government which is the coalface of delivery, to provide a better life for our people by fighting poverty and creating opportunities for the poor among our people to develop.

A number of issues were raised during our visit to Mpumalanga. Quite interesting, people also got the opportunity to find out more about the programme that government has put in place to contribute to the development of the communities. Challenges around health and social development were not exempt from the huge challenges raised by the people. For instance, our visits to the health centres highlighted the problems that are encountered by our people in terms of service delivery.

In our interaction we noted the following needs: insufficient funds to meet growing demands and funding needs; lack of accommodation for health workers; lack of doctors and an inability to retain nurses and other professional staff due to the rural nature of the health centres; increase in diseases as a result of lack of access to clean water at the health centres; lack of access to transport for patients or beneficiaries of social services; and the need for the improvement of water and sanitation.

There were also specific and unique challenges facing these institutions, for example, in KwaMhlanga Hospital concerns were raised regarding the current role of the Chief Executive Officer that seemed to limit his or her ability to manage the hospital. There are also problems with the SA Police Service regarding the use of the mortuary and transferring forensic services from the police to the hospital. Also at the time of our visit, KwaMhlanga was awaiting accreditation to roll out antiretrovirals. This was highlighted because of the high rate of HIV/Aids infection in the province.

At Fene Health Centre we were told that there is a dispute between the chief traditional leader and the clinic with regard to the use of funds. There is a need to clarify whether the grants are for the maintenance of the clinic buildings or tribal office buildings. There is also an increase in the applications for disability grants that are burdening the nurses with extra paperwork. The Kubonakele home-based care centre highlighted the lack of support from the Departments of Health and Social Services.

Our overall assessment was that health centres in the province, more especially in the Nkangala and surrounding areas, are currently experiencing a common set of challenges as well as unique challenges confronting the respective health centres. It is, however, important that we make this point that these are not insurmountable challenges. I understand that the Minister of Health has expressed tremendous support for the National Council of Provinces’ programme of Taking Parliament to the People, and visited the province as part of the government’s Imbizo Programme in April, working in partnership with the provincial Department of Health and Social Services.

An indication that the department is alive to the work that the NCOP is doing as part of our outreach programme, in preparation for the visit they began to ask questions about the nature of issues around health that came up when the NCOP visited Mpumalanga in March. They felt that these would prepare them to engage better with the people. We should view this as taking forward the work that we carried out in the province.

This introduces another dimension to the need for co-operation when we embark on these visits. It also underscores the importance of our sharing notes so that we avoid duplication, which often results in confusion among our people as to real intent and purpose of government with these public participation initiatives. However, as Parliament we have a different responsibility to that of the executive and we should always make sure that while we need to avoid duplication, we should not compromise our role of using this public participation platform as a tool to assist us in speeding up delivery by monitoring and scrutinising the executive action with regard to implementation of the policies and the laws that we have passed.

In conclusion, I must say that as we visit province after province we obviously need to guard against creating false hopes or making promises that we will not fulfil. As Parliament we are not the implementing agents. As I have just said, our role is to oversee and scrutinise executive action with a view to speeding up delivery. We should not therefore leave our people with the hope that their problems will be solved within a specific period without having had an undertaking from those who implement the policy. We also should, as we did throughout the Budget Vote debates in this House, be prepared to listen when our departments want us to approve the resources that they need to be able to deliver much more speedily. I thank you.

Mr P MEYER: (Western Cape): Mr Chairperson, the South African Constitution provides a framework for our system of governance that is both representative and participatory. When South Africa drew up its Constitution and institutional arrangements, it was able to take advantage of contemporary thinking on the evolving relationship of creating vehicles for dialogue between the people and their government. In short, when people are not involved in the decisions that affect them political interventions are likely to fail.

The Constitution either directly or indirectly deals with public participation or public interaction with government. Specifically, section 118 compels provincial legislatures to facilitate public involvement in the legislative and other processes and conduct its business in an open manner, and hold its sittings, and those of its committees in public.

In order to fulfil its obligation in terms of the above, the legislature, in its Rules and Orders, is required to maximise the opportunity for participation in all processes.

As part of its Taking Parliament to the People programme launched in 2002, the NCOP visited Mpumalanga province in 2004.

As is the case in the rest of our country, the Western Cape has groups of people who have greater access to power and decision-makers than others and it’s therefore important to ensure that public participation does not become skewed in favour of any one sector. Particularly the less powerful and organised should not be excluded or marginalised from this process. The key constraints for the less powerful and the poor to participate in parliamentary processes are communication - especially access to the media

• transport, education and sometimes time.

In order to consolidate all efforts to involve the public in its activities and promote education on its processes and work, the provincial legislature needs to adhere to a basic set of principles for effective participation within the context of institutional constraints facing the legislature. I would like to focus my contribution on the essential principles for effective participation.

Full participation by those affected by decisions taken by the legislature is essential and therefore the identification of stakeholders - especially women and children, and a person living with disabilities - in any particular initiative is vital. Partnership with the provincial government on this issue is important, especially with regard to the legislative process whereby the early identification of stakeholders and their participation in the processes are facilitated.

It’s important that the interests and process needs of the participants be taken into account. The process should also seek out and facilitate the involvement of those potentially affected. The stakeholder participation processes and designs should be defined relative to the outcomes sought in order to properly monitor and evaluate this process.

Public access to information is a precondition for effective participation. All stakeholders should be present in appropriate form and content and through effective channels to ensure accessibility to the information. Levels of literacy, language requirements and methods of communication need to be taken into account.

The participation process must be meaningful and transparent and require the decision-makers to commit to responding to all inputs received, and should encompass a sense that the public’s contribution will influence the final outcome. The challenge is to facilitate the processing of inputs and to create accessible records and adequate review processes.

Allow me to share some of the initiatives in the Western Cape with you. The provincial parliament’s budget for public participation has increased by 172% for the 2005-06 budget year for the democracy action plan and democracy-enabling initiatives.

Die kerneienskappe van hierdie Parlement is ons bedrywighede, die volk se Parlement, as volksbesit en die aanmoediging van volksbetrokkenheid by Waalstraat No 7. [The core characteristics of this Parliament are our activities, the people’s parliament, as the property of the people and the encouragement of the involvement of people at No 7 Wale Street.]

Our constant challenge remains the creation of initiatives that will deepen our democracy, and participation in our democracy action plan. Thus we will continue to invest in our human resources both at political and administrative level to build social capital and grow the people within and alongside the institution. During the debate on the provincial parliament’s Vote in April last year, Speaker Byneveldt raised a number of challenges for the institution which he regarded as crucial for its continued functioning as an organisation effectively discharging its many diverse functions.

He did so against the background of the many challenges the next 10 years of democracy represent and the kind of institution we require to provide the necessary political and administrative foundation to reach our goals. This is backed up by a fresh mandate from the electorate to help build a winning nation free of racism, sexism, inequality, unemployment, poverty and disease. Importantly, members were invited to join in these endeavours in order to collectively be able to appropriately gear the institution for its task.

The key challenges raised were, inter alia, ensuring a popularly owned, credible institution with the people of the province at the centre of its business; building a dynamic relationship with all stakeholders; ensuring that our processes and procedures are appropriate in our time and afford us the best possible mechanisms to fulfil our responsibilities; ensuring the most effective way for the public to participate in our processes and work and the implementation of a best-practice model of public participation and education for the Western Cape Parliament. The Western Cape Provincial Parliament is a living democracy committed to the principles of Batho Pele – People First.

Some of the activities initiated during 2004-05 already, and which will now in the coming years be intensified, included a sitting of the provincial parliament in George – the first fully fledged sitting of the House beyond the seat of Cape Town. The event was attended by more that 500 people and more than 250 people actively participated in activities. The people’s assembly in Worcester was attended by more than 2 500 people, with the Western Cape being the only province to host the event away from the seat of parliament.

Openbare deelname in ons prosesse en die deel van inligting oor ons instelling bly van ons belangrikste fokusareas. Van die kernaktiwiteite waaraan die Wes-Kaap gaan deelneem, sluit die volgende in. [Public participation in our processes and the sharing of information on our institution remain our most important focus areas. Of the core activities in which the Western Cape will participate, includes the following.]

There will be a people’s assembly towards the end of June with the theme, “People’s Voice: Shaping the Future”, which will mark the 50th anniversary of the Congress of the People in Kliptown. The themes for the engagement are poverty alleviation and underdevelopment, safety and security, and public participation. At this stage it is envisaged that the event will be held in Saldanha on the West Coast. It is also envisaged that two civil society seminars will be held with the primary function of empowering ordinary members of the public and communities to better communicate with their parliament and to provide them with the necessary tools to participate in its processes.

We further plan a sitting of the House in the Karoo region to coincide with the submission of annual reports by departments towards the end of September. This will enable provincial departments to showcase their achievements as well as engaging formally with the people of the region. A formal sitting of the legislature on a topic still to be identified will conclude the events. Our programming authority has already been engaged on the matter. It is also intended to visit at least eight schools in poor and rural areas to provide general information on the Western Cape provincial parliament to senior learners. Speakers’ debates will also from time to time be scheduled to have topical matters debated in the House.

A rules review process is currently under way. While the focus will be on rules generally, emphasis will be placed on the legislative process, oversight and accountability processes and public participation. [Time expired.]

Mr K SINCLAIR: Chairperson, very soon we will celebrate the 50th anniversary of the adoption of the Freedom Charter at the Congress of the People. Though clearly a product of its time, the Freedom Charter remains to this day a point of reference as we work to build a new South Africa and address the injustices of the past.

There are a number of reasons for the endurance and continued relevance of the Freedom Charter. One of these is that it was truly a product of popular participation. It was drawn up on the basis of demands presented by the people throughout the country. The Congress of the People itself, which adopted the final draft, was attended by delegates drawn from all racial groups and from both urban and rural areas.

In a real sense it was the precursor to the democratically elected Parliament, which today is our supreme lawmaker. Because the Charter was so intensely expressive of the voice of the people it could not but be a durable statement about the kind of South Africa that the millions of our people wanted to see. Now we are building that South Africa, and when we debate the report on Taking Parliament to the People on 14 to 18 March in Mpumalanga in KwaMahlangu, we’re doing just that.

The Moroccan-French tennis player Yannick Noah once said:

It’s hard to talk about yourself all day. You learn when you’re with other ideas, other books, other friends. Talking about yourself can’t advance your life.

What we did when we went to the people of Mpumalanga was to listen to and experience their needs, about what they’re involved with and what they expected of their democratically elected government. But what was also very important was that we were shifting from the urban to the rural areas of our country. That is why the vision and mission of Parliament, and also specifically Vision 2009, are so important.

South Africa has got the best constitutional and legal framework, but the time has arrived for implementation and delivery. When we’re discussing the report of Mpumalanga it’s important to say that it’s about implementation and delivery. The NNP supports the report. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr T GWABENI (North West): Hon Chairperson, Deputy Chair, hon members, delegates from various provinces, our struggle from slavery to freedom, through blood, sweat, death and tears - more so now than ever before - involves, as partners and comrades in arms the whole of our communities; for it is only through that action that a better life for all shall be realised.

However, we have to continually explain to ourselves some of the statements made in this House by those who oppose us, because they themselves can’t explain what they are saying to us. The DA says a member of the DA must deepen her understanding of social, cultural, political and economic problems of the country; but when we listen to what they say here it is quite clear that we have a duty and responsibility to explain their statements to ourselves.

We were and remain encouraged by the people of Mpumalanga, and the manner in which they raised issues of concern; issues indicating to us what we have achieved and the weaknesses and challenges that both the provincial and local government are facing. We have seen, from 14 to 18 March, democracy at work, and appreciate how all the leaders responded to difficult questions without being defensive or giving evasive answers to the critical questions.

We were also humbled by all our amakhosi who took part and participated throughout the sessions - patiently, without fear or favour. This is encouraging, for we continuously strive to restore the dignity of amakhosi. Some, elsewhere in the country, will want to do nothing but treat them like chickens that come running after them when they pour mealies.

This report is a full account of the hectic schedule that we had in Mpumalanga. The challenges reflected in this report and its recommendation truly reflect what the wishes of the people of that province are, and together with us they will strive to resolve the problems. I have no doubt in my mind that by now under the leadership of the Premier, his executive council and all the leaders, including the amakhosi, a programme of action, as hon Mahlangu has alluded to, has already been crafted. Taking Parliament to the people remains one of our greatest responsibilities in response to our forebears’ instructions, and I quote:

. . . that no government shall unjustly claim authority, unless based on the will of the people.

We remain mindful that there are those who claim an unjust authority over the people, and some of them have been elected. Our task, not only in Mpumalanga, is to continuously diagnose the devastating aftereffects of apartheid and its surrogates and to make the necessary intervention where ever possible.

As we take Parliament to the people we must remain mindful that we are on a mission to undo the unjust system of apartheid that has entrenched itself over many years like a cancer in our society. We cannot just forget and pretend that we can be held accountable for diseases in our country, for unemployment, underdevelopment, immorality and everything that goes with injustices.

All we can say is that we are on our way and marching forward to undo these injustices; neither can we blame our forebears for these inequalities. We take Parliament to the people unashamedly. In doing so we fulfil the wishes not only of our masses, but also the masses of our forebears who said that no government can justly claim authority, unless it is based on the will of the people. Hence we will continue to spend the taxpayers’ money in realising that objective.

Today, as it was in the case of our forebears, there are those among us who still do not share the same reality as us, namely that our responsibility and duty is to ensure that every piece of legislation passed must ensure that the quality of the life of our people, both black and white, changes for the better. As we take Parliament to the people we are continuously affording ourselves the opportunity to expose those who thrive on lies and misrepresentation of facts, for together with the people we are able to share challenges and accept advice from the masses of the people, and demonstrate a willingness unashamedly to correct the wrongs that might be there, because we are duty bound.

By taking Parliament to the people we will continue to expose those who thrive on the frustration and anger of some in our community and their impatience in some instances. I am talking about those who, when there is a march or a street blockade, go there, give our people posters and say to our people: “You voted for the ANC, where are your houses?” This we have previously seen happening in this province.

This behaviour is correctly contextualised in the Holy Book. This happened to even Jesus himself. When He was facing challenges the devil said to Him that in order to prove that He was indeed the Son of God He had to change the stones into bread. [Interjections.] They continue to say that now that you have voted for the ANC you must have a house, and have it now. [Interjections.]

In my province we call them “voetpaadjies” . . . [Laughter.] . . . because they thrive on the impatience and frustration of the people. They are just instant coffee creamers that do not last and they have short legs!

Taking Parliament to the people will continuously help us to expose these realities. Taking Parliament to the people is as good as having our own fingers on the pulse of all our communities in all the spheres of our government; and as a result, being able to accord us the responsibility and the chance to diagnose and give medication there and then.

Taking Parliament to the people will continue to help us build a nonracial society, as is the case in my province. We have engaged an organisation called the “Federasie van Afrikaanse Kultuurvereniginge”. This “Federasie van Afrikaanse Kultuurvereniginge” had about eight concerns, among them the issues of mother tongue, of affirmative action, of exclusion of Afrikaners from the economy, the protection of culture and safety and security.

While we have agreed on setting up teams to dispose of these matters, the reality of the situation is that there are some here who may claim that they will defend Afrikaans. We told them: “Afrikaans is ’n lekker taal. Afrikaners moet hulle kultuur hê.” [. . . Afrikaans is a great language. Afrikaners must have their culture.]

The same with English, Setswana . . .

Al die kulture en al die tale is belangrik. [All cultures and all languages are important.]

I can assure you here and now, you must just give them a single ticket after they have attend this meeting, because . . .

. . . hulle sal nie weer hiernatoe kom nie. [Gelag.] Dit is die waarheid. Baie dankie. [Tyd verstreke.] [Applous.][. . . they won’t come here again. [Laughter.] That is the truth. Thank you very much. [Time expired.] [Applause.]]

Nk N F MAZIBUKO: Sihlalo, uma ngiqedela inkulumo ka-comrade wami, uGwabeni, ngingathi . . . [Chairperson, if I may conclude the speech made by Comrade Gwabeni, I would say . . .] “. . . ke bomabina ho tsholwa.” [. . . they come when the hard work is finished.]

They are what we call “the microwave politicians” – those that speak out.

Kusho ukuthi uvele nje ufake emlilweni oshisayo. Sihlalo, kuthiwa ngesiNgisi, “all protocol observed”. USomqulu wethu weNkululeko uyasho ukuthi abantu bazobusa. Ngamanye amazwi kuthiwa, phecelezi, “The people shall govern.” Lokhu kusho ukuthini? Kusho ukuthi akuthina kuphela esingamalungu esishayamthetho ababusayo, kepha abantu nabo bayabusa. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Which means that you just put it in a fire. Chairperson, in English they say, “all protocol observed”. The Freedom Charter provides that the people shall govern. What does this mean? This means that it is not the members of Parliament alone who are in government, but also the people.]

It’s government by the people for the people.

INkosi uJesu yathi . . . cha, sengathi ibekeka kamnandi ngesiSuthu: [Uhleko.] [Jesus Christ once said . . . No, it sounds better in Sesotho.] [Laughter.]]

O ne a re, Morena Jesu, eyang lefatsheng ka bophara le bue efangedi, mme ya dumelang le mo kolobetse. Ba nang le ditsebe ba tla utlwa, ba nang le mahlo ba tla bona. [Jesus said: Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. Those who listen will understand, and those who look will see.]

Yilokhu-ke okwenzeka ngenkathi uMkhandlu uvakashele isifundazwe saseMpumalanga. Safafaza ivangeli lokusondeza uhulumeni eduze nabantu. Abantu nabo basabela. Impela kuyo le mbizo beza ngobuningi babo. Ngenkathi kusabusa ontamolukhuni yayingekho into enjenga lena yokuthi iPhalamende liye ebantwini, lixoxisane nabo, lizwe nokuthi yiziphi izinkinga zabo. Lokhu kwenzeka kuphela ngoba sekuphethe uhulumeni oholwa i-ANC. Ngalokhu ngithi asinamona, asinanzondo, siyayidumisa i-ANC. [Ubuwelewele.]

Ngenkathi siKwaMhlanga sakwazi ukuxoxa nabantu abasha, abesimame kanye nabakhubazekile. Abasixoxela khona kwasishiya sibambe ongenzansi, okunye kwakujabulisa. Lokho kubonisa khona ukuthi abantu bayawazi amalungelo abo. Saxoxa futhi nabesifazane. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[That is what happened when the NCOP visited Mpumalanga. We preached the evangelism of bringing the government closer to the people. The people responded. They attended the imbizo in large numbers. During the apartheid era there was no programme for taking Parliament to the people, interacting with them and listening to their problems. This is now only happening because the ANC-led government is in power. In the light of the above, we say we do not feel jealousy or hatred, but we commend the ANC. [Interjections.]

When we visited KwaMhlanga we interacted with the youth, women and the people with disabilities. What they told us was quite astonishing, and some of the things they said were exciting. This shows that the people know their rights. We also had discussions with women.]

We all know that women make the world go round, and they rock the cradle.

Ngaphandle kwabantu besifazane, asilutho. Yingakho-ke uhulumeni wethu kaKhongolose ebeke imigomo nemithetho ezoqinisekisa ukuthi amalungelo abesifazane ayahlonishwa futhi baphiwe namathuba okwenza ngcono izimpilo zabo. Ngalokhu-ke ngisaphinda ngiyasho ngithi abanezindlebe bazwile nabanamehlo bayabona.

Abesifazane, ngobuningi babo, yibona futhi abasebenzisa izakhiwo zikahulumeni njengemitholampilo namahhovisi oMnyango wezaseKhaya lapho besuke beyofuna khona izincwadi zokuzalwa kwezingane, beyobhalisela izindlu njalo njalo. Abakhubazekile nabo, ngaphansi koMnyango weMisebenzi kaHulumeni nokuPhathwa kwayo, DPSA, nabo baphiwa ithuba lokuveza izinselelo ababhekene nazo, njengokuthola ezempilo, amathuba okufunda kanye namathuba ezemisebenzi ukuze bakwazi ukuziphilisa.

Abasha nabo bawaphiwa amathuba okuphefumula ngalokho ababekubona. Nathi siyazi ukuthi iningi labo lavota, kodwa abazange bahlale phansi basonge izandla ngoba bethi “Bazoyithola kanjani behlezi ekhoneni”. Kepha basukuma bathi, “Nathi ake siye kotshela uhulumeni ukuthi, njengabantu abavota, nathi singathanda ukuthi izimpilo zethu ziphucuzeke kanje”.

Umbuso ka-ANC, ngaphansi kwesihloko esithi: ukusebenzisana nabantu ukuze kudaleke amathuba emisebenzi, ulwa nobuphofu. UMongameli wezwe uye wamemezela wathi: Vukani nizenzele! Uye waphinda wathi, “Wonke umuntu o- independent, let’s go 50-50”. Nangempela isukumile intsha nabesifazane balaphaya KwaMhlanga, njengeThuthukani women’s project eyasungulwa ngabesifazane abalima izivande, baphinde futhi babe nezihlahla zamawolintshi nezamapetshisi. Konke lokhu kwenzeka ngenxa yokuthi amathuba asedalekile. Abanamehlo bayawabona, abanezindlebe bayezwa. Asinamona, asinanzondo, siyayidumisa i-ANC. [Ubuwelewele.]

Laphaya kuneBonakele home-based centre eyasungulwa yibo abasha baseLoopspruit. Kukhona neTransbridge agricultural project eseVlaklaagte. Nayo yasungulwa ngabasha abakhulisa amatshwele ezinkukhu. Abazange basonge izandla bese bethi, “Silindele i-ANC, sivotile, letha ANC”. Kepha bathi, “Nathi siyazisukumela ukuze siphucule izimpilo zethu.”

Ezemfundo nazo azishiywanga ngemuva. Izingxaki zezingane ezifunda ngaphansi kwezihlahla nazo zizoxazululwa. Siyazi ukuthi zonke izingane zinamalungelo okuya esikoleni, kusukela kwiBanga R, okuyizinga esasilibiza ngokuthi udubulamazenze, kuya kwiBanga 9, esithi phecelezi yi-Grade 9. Izingane nazo ziyaphiwa ukudla nasesikoleni. Konke lokhu sakubona kwenzeka laphaya KwaMhlanga. Uma sengiphetha, ngikhumbula inkulumo yami engiyikhulume kuleli viki elidlule lapho bengikhumbuza abanye ukuthi . . .(Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Without women we are nothing. That is why our ANC-led government has introduced policies and guidelines to ensure that the rights of women are respected and they are offered opportunities that would enable them to improve their lives. I repeat that those who have ears should hear, and those who have eyes should see.

Women are the ones who use government services such as clinics and the offices of the Department of Home Affairs where they apply for birth certificates; also when they make applications for housing assistance, and so on. And people with disabilities are using the Department of Public Service and Administration, DPSA, to demonstrate the challenges they are facing, like health services, education and training opportunities and as job opportunities so that they could earn a living.

The youth were given an opportunity to express their views. We know that most of them did vote; they did not fold their arms and say: “How are we going to benefit if we do not participate?” However, they stood up and said: “Let us go and tell the government that, as the electorate, we would like to improve our lives in this fashion.”

The ANC administration fights poverty under the heading that says: Contract with the people to create employment opportunities. The President made the call by saying: “Get up and work!” He also said: “Everyone is independent, let’s go 50-50”. Indeed the youth and women of KwaMhlanga did stand up, as in the case of the Thuthukani Women’s Project, which was established by women who are farming with vegetables, orange and peach trees. This is possible only because of the opportunities that are open. Those who have eyes can see, and those who have ears can hear. We aren’t jealous; we don’t feel hatred, but praise for the ANC. [Interjections.]

In that area there is the Bonakele home-based care centre, which was established by the youth of Loopspruit. There is another project called Transbridge Agricultural Project at Vlaklaagte, which was also established by the youth - those who farm with chickens. They did not fold their arms and say: We are waiting for the ANC, because we have voted. Instead they stood up to improve their lives.

Education issues were not left out. The problems of children who are learning under the trees will be solved. We know that every child has a right to attend school, from Grade R, the level we used to call “Dubul’amazenze” [preprimary] up to Grade 9. Children are provided with nutrition at schools. We observed all of this at KwaMhlanga. In conclusion, I remember the speech I gave last week, when I said . . . ]

Mr O M THETJENG: Hon Chair, hon Mazibuko has forgotten about the stationary car and the other things.

Nk N F MAZIBUKO: Angizwanga kahle? [I beg your pardon?]

Mr O M THETJENG: Imoto namasondo, awukakhulumi ngalokho. [A car with wheels; you have not referred to that yet.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Thetjeng, that’s not a point of order. Hon Mazibuko, please continue.

Nk N F MAZIBUKO: Ngiyabonga, Sihlalo. Ngithi ngifuna ukukhumbuza amalungu ngenkulumo yami engiyibeke kuleli viki eliphelile maqondana nokuthi kuwo wonke lo msebenzi esiwenzayo sabona intuthuko ngempela laphaya KwaMhlanga. Ngakhumbuza amalungu ukuthi lokhu kunjengemoto uma ngabe ihamba. Uma ingenawo amasondo izinja zizalela ngaphakathi kwayo, zilale kuyo. Uma ngabe imile nje ingahambi ziyayichamela, kepha uma ngabe ihamba ziyayikhonkotha. [Ubuwelewele.]

Yilokho-ke esikubonile lapha ngenkathi amanye amalungu ekhuluma lapha phambi kwethu. Bathi azikaphucuzeki izimpilo zabantu. Kepha konke lokhu kuyefana nale moto yethu eyisiqhubayo singuKhongolose. Izinja zigijima emuva kwayo, ziyayikhonkotha.

Amakomidi-ke afana no-Joint Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of Life and the Status of Children, Youth and Disabled Persons; kanye ne- Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Women angamakomidi esawabeka lapha ePhalamende ukuze alandelisise okunye kulezi zinto esiziphawulile silaphaya KwaMhlanga. Umsobomvu Youth Fund nawo unazo izinhlelo ezibhekene nabasha ukuze nabo babe ngosomabhizinisi.

Lapha eNingizimu Afrika, kusuka ngonyaka ka-1994, sesizamile ukuphucula izimpilo zabantu, ikakhulukazi labo abantulayo. Uma uMthethosisekelo siwusebenzisa, ngisho abasha nabesifazane uyabavikela amalungelo abo, abakwazi nokucwasana ngokwebala.

Ukwakhiwa kwezizinda zemisebenzi eyehlukene, ama-multipurpose centres, kuyayisiza imiphakathi yethu, ngisho naseMpumalanga imbala, ukuze izidingo zabantu zikwazi ukubhekelwa masishane futhi bakwazi ukuthola yonke imininingwane nolwazi. Uma sengivala, ngiyaphinda ngithi abanezindlebe bayezwa, abanamehlo bayabona. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Ms N F MAZIBUKO: Thank you, Chairperson. I want to remind hon members about my speech last week with regard to the fact that in our oversight role we note the development at KwaMhlanga. I reminded members that that was like a car. If it does not have wheels, dogs give birth in it and sleep in it. If it is stationary, dogs urinate against it; whereas dogs can only bark at it if it is in motion. [Interjections.]

That is what we saw there, as other members have said in this House. They say the lives of the people have not improved. All of this is attributed to the vehicle that is driven by the ANC. Dogs are running behind it and barking.

Committees like the Joint Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Children, Youth and Disabled Persons and the Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Women were formed here in Parliament by us to follow up on the programmes we saw at KwaMhlanga. The Umsobomvu Youth Fund has programmes that focus on youth so that they can become business executives.

In South Africa, since 1994, we have done a number of things to improve the lives of the people, particularly the poorest of the poor. If we really follow the provisions of the Constitution, we will note that even the rights of the youth and women are protected; they cannot discriminate against either on the basis of race.

The building of different infrastructure and multipurpose centres helps our communities, even in Mpumalanga, so that the needs of the people are addressed quickly, which will enable them to get all the relevant information. In conclusion, I repeat, those who have ears can hear, those who have eyes can see.]

Eyang lefatsheng ka bophara, le bue efangedi ya hore ANC e ya sebetsa. Re bona ka mesebetsi ya yona . . . [Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation that the ANC is delivering. We see their work.]

Asinamona, asinanzondo, siyayidumisa i-ANC. Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.] [We have no jealousy, no hatred; we praise the ANC. Thank you.[Applause.]]

Ms N B J HOOSAIN (Eastern Cape): Chairperson, for us it is rather an honour to be able to speak on what this august House has initiated in our province. From 31 July to 2 August 2002 the NCOP held its first sitting in Umtata, away from these precincts. In that same year an academic journal of political sciences and public administration published a number of articles on the matter of ethics in politics and public administration. This they did, trying to demonstrate that there was a need to improve on the accountability of our democratic institutions.

We from the Eastern Cape wish to commend the NCOP for providing a sublime dimension to the relationship between public representatives and the institutions on the one hand, and the public and their organisations on the other.

Even though the academic debates were seized with issues arising from Sarafina 2, the so-called arms deal and other such matters, the topics addressed by the NCOP sitting provided a model exercise in the promotion of public participation. We in the Eastern Cape in our first year of the new dispensation embarked on a programme of public participation, which saw our province holding what we called an “open day” that coincided with the first day that we convened as a House, which was 10 May. Subsequently, we then institutionalised a number of other days, including Youth Parliament Day, Women’s Parliament Day, and Parliament for the Disabled Day and Religious Parliament Day. This year we shall be holding our very first Worker’s Parliament Day in July, in which our hon Deputy President will be participating.

I raise these matters to illustrate that in our country we still have different understandings of democracy. I am raising this because we need to begin to grapple with the idea that the idea of democracy and the idea of participation are meaningless if they are not linked to the consciousness of what we are trying to achieve. There is a sophist poet who says that consciousness is the king and ideas are his envoys. He also says that speech comes from thought, but where do thoughts come from? These are all related to how far we need to go to understand why we do things so that when we do them we know what we ought to be achieving.

In 2002 the NCOP took Parliament to the people for the first time and that exercise not only boldly, but also colourfully and inspiringly demonstrated the mutual reinforcing relationship between representative and participatory democracy. We heard traditional leaders making submissions to the House; we heard women and so on.

This exercise can almost be compared to that quite interesting TV commercial of a beautifully mournful little boy, with a beautiful, sad face. His brother goes abroad to London and sends him pictures of where he is. And the poor boy ponders on these pictures, because they are black and white photos. He writes to his brother and wonders where all the colours are. So he goes to the tailor in his village and gets the tailor to make his brother a bright orange suit so that he can add colour to this colourless world he sees.

In the same way, what the NCOP and the Eastern Cape has done in our legislature gives a different meaning to democracy. We need to add that kind of colour where we understand what it is and that the world looks more real to us; and we are saying unless we do that it’s going to be black and white – meaningless.

Similarly, the sitting in Mpumalanga further adds to the project of nation building in ways that can only be appreciated and realised by those who remain in constant pursuit of perfect harmony with the soul of the nation. We cannot succeed in building and promoting public participation unless it speaks to the soul of the people that we are reaching out to.

The topics addressed in the Mpumalanga sitting easily also find resonance in our province. Hence we are convinced that the leadership of the NCOP does not fall in the category of people to whom Keorapetse Kgositsile speaks on behalf of the people when he says:

If you are afraid of your reflection do not come my way at times I am a mirror.

This is a poem, After and For, from a book called “When things fall apart” by Chinua Achebe. So, when the NCOP goes to the people; when the Eastern Cape Legislature promotes public participation, we are not scared to see our reflection in the people whom we represent and we strive towards our people not being scared to see their reflection in us. We are asking that we continue on this courageous path.

I wish to focus on the topics 1, 3, 4 and 8 which collectively and directly resonate to the targets relating to poverty in our Provincial Growth and Development Programme up to 2014. These targets are: to halve the unemployment rate by 2014; to reduce the number of households living below the poverty line by between 60% and 80%; and to establish food self- sufficiency.

We might say that with regard to local government, apart from the numerous developments taking place there, for us one of our important achievements is that in this year the number of community development workers who are now active has reached 118 and that for us there is still a great demand for even more community development workers. For us that is an important development because it continues to provide that link and to raise that consciousness of why we do things so that our ideas are fed by that consciousness.

With regard to topics 5 and 6, which address the challenges relating to the children and youth, people living with disabilities and the gender machine in the province, our PGDT targets, that is the Provincial Growth and development Targets, in addition to those relating to poverty also include reducing the under-five mortality rate by two-thirds and the maternity mortality rate by three-quarters; halting and beginning to reverse the spread of HIV/Aids and TB.

Beyond that, in the smaller programmes of each department we also have a cluster system in our province. We have other programmes related to women and poverty because we have one of the highest incidences of female-headed households throughout all of our seven districts. Except for the Nelson Mandela Metro, most of the districts in our province have female-headed households above 50%. So for us, women and poverty is a serious . . . [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr R T Tau): Perhaps it is important that one raise the issue that it is a privilege to sit here. [Interjections.] [Laughter.] So I must start by ensuring that I assert my presence by saying, “Order!” [Laughter.]

Mr O M THETJENG: I’m not sure whether to call you “Chairperson”, but thank you, presiding officer. [Interjections.] Thank you, Chairperson.

Thank you, hon liberals that are here today, other distinguished guests and other liberals that are here, thank you very much. From 14 to 18 March 2005 the NCOP visited the people of Mpumalanga province in KwaMhlanga. The main objective was to interact with the ordinary people on the ground and hear what they had to say about services and other matters that concerned them.

The first sitting of the NCOP excluded the very same people that we had visited and this defeated the good intentions of the exercise. We actually talked to ourselves and we may as well have remained in Cape Town, like today, and proceeded with our normal business. [Interjections.] I observed in the subsequent days that new arrangements came into play in that a marquee was pitched to allow people to be part of the proceedings.

The other concern that I have is that we spent more time listening to people and too little time on sites where community poverty alleviation projects were established. At one such project at which you have an orange plantation . . .

Mr J M MAHLANGU (Mpumalanga): Chair, is the member prepared to take a question?

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr R T Tau): No, he is not prepared to.

Mr O M THETJENG: At one such project at which you have an orange plantation a lot of money has been invested, and yet there is an insufficient water supply to water these trees. Some of them are drying up.

The broiler project also faces a bleak future. There is no comprehensive plan in place to assist in the marketing of the products. The women depend on walk-ins, which is not the best way to run a business that has to make profits. How, then, does one talk about poverty alleviation when the very project becomes costly to run?

The existing projects should serve as a lesson in that they should not be put in place to justify expenditure when they cannot be viable. The big question that haunts me is: How is this House going to intervene and ensure that these ills are corrected? Are we just taking this exercise for its own sake, or will corrective measures be implemented? If there are no mechanisms put in place to ensure that corrective steps are actually taken, then this programme of taking Parliament to the people should stop.

Parliament needs to be transparent, as espoused in the Batho Pele principles. Once public funds are utilised accountability follows to justify their good usage. This House has, in this term, already undertaken two such trips to two provinces – one to KwaZulu-Natal, at Empangeni, and recently to Mpumalanga.

The financial costs for the two trips have not been tabled before this House by resolution in terms of Rule 21C. Council, taking such a resolution, will then specify – and I quote - “the estimated costs of effecting the change of venue and maintaining it for the specified period”. This was not done on two occasions.

A resolution was only done to effect the change of sitting, but no cost was included. How then do we account to the public that has entrusted us with this responsibility of managing the financial affairs? This House must avoid back-door tactics, as previously employed, before it loses the trust of the public.

We hear of corruption every second of the day in the various spheres of government and in the private sector, and this has become a cancer - the hon Gwabeni is actually tasked with the cancer issue – eating into our society, as correctly put during yesterday’s landmark judgment. That judgment will determine the willingness or the lack thereof of the President himself on what to do next – because there is so much corruption: the Shabirgate, the Oilgate and all other “gates” that we find in this country. [Interjections.]

It is proper to indicate that this House is made up of various political parties, and the hon Gwabeni has said that some of the members have got one- way tickets. I want to assure him that the number of DA members that are here will increase in the next election, and some of you that are here won’t come back. [Interjections.] This House need not be caught in such situations, and if ever it happens we will . . .

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Can the member take a question?

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr R T Tau): There is a point of order, hon Thetjeng.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Can the member take a question?

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr R T Tau): Can you take the question?

Mr O M THETJENG: No.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr R T Tau): No, he is not prepared to take a question. [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: Bangbroek. [Coward.]

Mr O M THETJENG: Yes, “bangbroeks” are better off than corrupt individuals. [Interjections.] It is our role to inform them of the wrongs that are taking place . . .

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chair, on a point of order, we have no evidence before this House that there are corrupt individuals. The member therefore should withdraw that.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr R T Tau): Can I take the point of order and allow or request Mr Thetjeng to refrain, or withdraw that statement, unless you are able to prove that there is such a person in this House and that that is relevant, of course, to the debate that we are having at this moment.

Mr O M THETJENG: Chairperson, I’m not going to withdraw the statement that I made because I’ve said in my statement that corruption is reported on a daily basis. I’ve quoted the corruption that was actually recorded in the judgment yesterday, and I’m not going to withdraw the statement.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr R T Tau): Therefore, can I make a ruling on the matter to say that you withdraw?

Mr O M THETJENG: Chairperson, I’m not going to withdraw a statement that is not relevant. [Interjections.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr R T Tau): I’m saying . . . [Interjections.] Order, order!

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, the Rules are very clear in that if the member defies the ruling of the presiding officer then it is contempt not only of the presiding officer but also of the House, and the member has to be taken out of the House. [Interjections.] If he does not want to go out peacefully, then he must go out . . . [Interjections.]

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: On a point of order, Chairperson . . .

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: I’m still on the floor. Sit down. [Interjections.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr R T Tau): Hon member, is that a point of order?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: I’m still on the floor, Chair.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr R T Tau): Oh, are you still there? Okay.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: I was still on the floor. You see, when you are still young and inexperienced about parliamentary procedure, you stand up even if the Chief Whip of the Council is speaking. That also shows contempt from that side of the organisation. So, what I am saying is that the Rules of the House will have to apply if the member doesn’t want to abide by them.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr R T Tau): Okay, can I make the ruling in the following way. Hon Thetjeng, you made a statement to which there was an objection, because there is no substantive evidence that you can put to this House. Therefore I made a ruling to say that you must withdraw that statement, unless you would then give me the option of referring to the Rules in order to arrive at a substantive ruling on this particular matter. Will you withdraw that statement?

Mr O M THETJENG: Chairperson, can I be informed, in terms of the statement that I actually made, because I don’t see any reason why I should withdraw because I have not really . . . The statement that I made here does not . . . Chairperson, I’m not going to withdraw.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr R T Tau): Hon Thetjeng, on the basis of your refusal, can I therefore disallow you to continue with the debate?

Mr O M THETJENG: Well, I may not proceed. [Interjections.] I’m not going to withdraw. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr R T Tau): I’m disallowing you.

Mr O M THETJENG: I’m not going to withdraw. I mean, there is nothing in terms of the Rules . . .

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr R T Tau): You’re not going to step down?

Mr O M THETJENG: There is nothing in terms of the Rules that I have actually violated here. Therefore I am not going to withdraw anything, Chairperson. Yes, Chief Whip?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: A ruling has been made by the presiding officer who has the authority of this House. If you would like to make a complaint, you must write a letter or make an oral representation.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr R T Tau): Order! Order, order, hon members! I think a ruling has been made and, in any case, it is very important that we take note that we need to behave responsibly as hon members, and the kind of statements that we make in the House are statements that should be able to uphold the stature of this House. Therefore I take note of the fact that there is an allegation or an objection that says that a serious statement has been made. It is important that the mind be applied when a substantive ruling is to be made in particular to the refusal by the hon Thetjeng to withdraw the statement. Therefore, on the basis of that I call the next speaker.

Mr M GUNGUBELE (Gauteng): Thank you, Chairperson, members of the House, and representatives of various provinces. In Gauteng we do find ourselves in line with the purpose for which this trip was taken to Mpumalanga. I say that because we have a public participation committee that handles public issues in terms of visiting communities on a day-to-day basis, advising them on parliamentary workings, be it provincial, local or national. We also have an executive council that has imbizos on alternate Wednesdays throughout the year.

I therefore take this opportunity, on behalf of the Gauteng province, to make a contribution to the expressions of appreciation of this NCOP’s noble initiative. Its nobility lies in the sense that, in its nature and content, it succeeds in directing the NCOP to the historic reason that has determined various goals of our liberation struggle.

The struggle for change in this country was sparked by, amongst other things, the displacement of blacks, particularly Africans, from the main strategic resources of this country. Characteristic of this displacement is the following: driving people away from land which is capable of cultivation and development in general; entrenching them in the imprisonment of servility; loss of self-esteem and sustenance; thus condemnation to an absolute state of underdevelopment intended to be perpetual.

This underdevelopment is manifested in a lack of education, safety, protection, health, food and access to information technology. This creates an inability to communicate and be communicated with; a lack of basic infrastructure to run a sustainable business, inability to reach state institutions in order to be heard and an inability to access transport services due to both poor roads, infrastructure and unaffordability.

The second economy is, among other things, the typical product of the historic facts that I have already stated. Therefore, the nobility of this NCOP initiative is founded on the aforementioned facts, because this Parliament was mainly voted to where it is by the incapacitated majority. Its legitimacy lies in ensuring that the poor continuously inform its workings. This majority of the poor constitutes the primary origin of a democratic state founded in the Freedom Charter and it is in the interest of the majority.

This initiative is a response to the need for services for the poor. Thobejane, a retired judge in Zimbabwe, once said that when dry legalism cannot administer justice then activism must take over. By taking this initiative, we are crying against dry parliamentarism in favour of activist parliamentarians.

Who benefits from the process? It is the NCOP that bases its policy development on first-hand information. It is the NCOP that argues in Parliament with a clear conscience to articulate views of the poor who they would have met directly - the NCOP’s ability to fight with vigour based on undoubted mandates. All these are as a result of direct interaction with people. It ensures that we are not a dry Parliament but a Parliament of activist politicians.

Again, what benefits our people is that their messages do reach the law- making institutions. They know that somebody is listening to them. They can live in hope based on the knowledge of having been heard. As a result of the historic, direct contact with the parliamentarians, things change for the better. Indeed, the other critical basis for their hope will be the results that will follow after this visit.

Of course, there are challenges that I think this Parliament must have been exposed to in the process that led to this Parliament acknowledging the following: the urgency of infrastructure development in those poor communities; the speed required to install information technology so that these people can access all the workings of the country without moving from where they are; and the speed required to establish and improve social infrastructure that would actually capacitate these people to interact with the environment, liberate their capacity and ensure a sustainable living.

I think the other matter that must have been acknowledged is the long- overdue need to install an overall institutional infrastructure that ensures that infrastructures like school governing bodies, health committees, local authorities, civil society, ward committees and that all those structures will get exposed to their weaknesses and strength in their ability to assist people to interact with the institutions of power.

The other challenge that I think we must have been exposed to is the skills required that are relevant to those communities; for instance, ensuring that rural communities do develop skills that would be of service to them - unlike the trend today where rural communities develop skills for urban communities, thus overloading urban infrastructure which cannot cope and contributes to other ills that we are trying fight.

I therefore hope that the exposure to these challenges will not be in vain. It also gave us an opportunity as a Parliament to actually interact with the up-and-coming entrepreneurs that need to know about the programmes that this government has put in place, and need to understand the function of Sita and the functions of the various other funding institutions, be it be the national empowerment fund, the Sibaya fund or a number of other key institutions that up and coming business people are supposed to know about so as to sense with regard opportunities offered by these institutions and also how to access these institutions.

The issue is very clear. When Thobejane says “when dry legalism cannot administer justice an activist judge is required,” it is also to help those who are so liberal that they are liberated from the importance of talking to the people. In the process of being liberated from talking to the people you become a victim of mechanistic ways of doing things. Then in spite of people being present wanting to talk to you, you would rather want to talk to a physical project, to stones and roads, believing that they can give you better information than the people you were supposed to talk to.

I think we must forgive those people. They are allowed to talk here and we know their views give us an opportunity to educate them. I hope next time we will be able to stay with them so that they can come and learn instead of staying outside.

Therefore, on behalf of Gauteng we want to say to the NCOP, we in the Gauteng province support this very noble initiative. There can be no better initiative than this one, if we remember why we are here and why we came here. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr C A T SMITH (Northern Cape): Agb Voorsitter van die komitee van openbare werke, lede van hierdie weleerwaarde Huis, ek moet sê ek is minder senuweeagtig, want daar is ‘n Noord-Kapenaar in die Stoel!

Namens die Noord-Kaap is ek bevoorreg om aan hierdie debat te kan deelneem. Hierdie debat handel oor “Bringing Parliament closer to the people”. Hierdie Huis kry sy mandaat van Artikels 43, 42, 68 en ander om ‘n program in plek te stel om nader aan die mense te beweeg.

Hierdie Huis het dus ‘n unieke verantwoordelikheid om groter publieke deelname te verseker. In die woorde van die Voorsitter van hierdie Huis, die agb Mahlangu, ten spyte van die Local Government: Municipal Finance Management Act, Local Government: Municipal Systems Act en Disaster Management Act, is daar nog krisisse wat in plaaslike regering plaasvind. Die skakeling met die gemeenskap daar buite is dus van noodsaaklike belang.

Dis belangrik om tydens hierdie debat te sê dat hierdie Huis haar nie minderwaardig moet ag teenoor haar susterhuis, die Nasionale Vergadering, nie. Dit is nie meer ‘n geheim dat die internasionale gemeenskap al groter belangstelling toon in die werksaamhede van die Nasionale Raad van Provinsies nie.

Die vraag is: Hoekom? Die antwoord daarop is omdat die kontak wat hierdie Huis het, is nader aan die mense en die naaste diensleweringspunt. Dit is die enigste unieke Huis van sy soort in die wêreldgeskiedenis vandag.

Dit is ook algemeen bekend dat alles wat jonk is ook groeipyne ervaar. Ons moet egter nie dat die groeipyne van hierdie Huis ons mismoedig laat nie, maar veel eerder die klem laat val op die merkwaardige vordering wat ons tot dusver gemaak het. Ons moet dus voortgaan daarmee om die probleme wat ons het die hoof te probeer bied.

Die beginsel van die onderskeiding van mag moet vir ons in staat stel om voort te gaan om, soos die Vryheidsmanifes tereg sê, te verseker dat “die mense sal regeer.” Die Speaker van Ghana het by geleentheid gesê hy verwys nie na die opposisie in die Huis as opposisie nie, maar veel eerder as “mindersheidsparty”, omdat hy dink dat hy vrees dat as hy vir hulle “opposisie” noem, sal hulle alles opponeer. Na dít wat ek vandag al in hierdie Huis gehoor het, is ek daarvan oortuig dat dit is soos dit omtrent daar by hulle gaan. Daarom wil ek hierdie Huis aanmoedig om tog te verwys na “minderheidspartye” eerder as na die “opposisie”.

In Die Volksblad van 1 Junie skryf Generaal-Majoor Opperman - en hy skryf na aanleiding van wat Prof Gilliomee gesê het by ‘n beraad in Spanje - en ek haal aan:

‘n Groot aantal faktore dra by daartoe dat Afrikaners al meer voel hul taal en kultuur word opsetlik ondermyn.

Ek wil vandag sê dit is snert en onsin. In die Grondwet, in Artikel 36, is dit juis die verskansing en die beskerming van die Afrikaanse taal en kultuur wat daarin vervat word.

Dit is egter ‘n handjievol wit mense wat die taal Afrikaans wil misbruik vir etniese, rassistiese redes, wat die land daardeur wil polariseer en konflik aanblaas. Ek wil vandag, deur Afrikaans te praat, die teendeel bewys en sê dat ek ‘n Christen, Afrikaanssprekend en ‘n ANC-lid is.

Statistiese gegewens toon dat al meer en meer wit liberaliste moeiliker aanpas binne die nuwe Suid-Afrika as wit Afrikaners. Die rede hiervoor is dat hulle terug verlang na die vleispotte van Egipte. Dit laat my dink aan die Britse setlaars wat tydens die Anglo-Boereoorlog ons mense verkrag en in konsentrasiekampe vermoor het.

Aan hierdie gefrustreerde wit Afrikaners wat nie gehoor word deur hulle liberale kollegas nie, wil ek vandag maan en advies gee dat die ANC die oplossing vir hulle is. Die ANC is die enigste ware nie-rassige organisasie. Ek haal Pablo Picasso aan, ‘n Spaanse kunstenaar wat in die 1800s gesê het:

From the sky, from the earth, from the scrap of paper, from a passing shape, from a spider’s web, we must pick out what is good for us . . .

En dié wil ek beklemtoon -

. . . where we can find it.

Luister na Picasso; en vir die wit Afrikaner wil ek sê: Moenie dat hierdie liberale kollegas van julle vir julle koloniseer nie.

Die beginsels van demokrasie het die ANC vir hierdie land en sy mense geleer. Dit is nou ons taak om dit verder uit te bou, en daarom moet ons die nuwe waardes en nuwe normes, soos onder andere, deursigtigheid, rekenskap en publieke deelname as deel van die strategie en program van hierdie Huis, in ons gemeenskappe vestig.

Ek wil saam met die Voorsitter van hierdie Huis maan dat ons egter nie valse verwagtinge moet skep nie. As dit is - en ek was deel van die program daar, ek het die gesigte van die mense gesien – dat hierdie Huis en die lede van hierdie Huis nie die Kabinet en nie die uitvoerende raad van die wetgewer van Mpumalanga tot verantwoording gaan roep en vir hulle gaan help om die probleme op te los nie, sal ons geloofwaardigheid in gedrang gebring word daar buitekant by die mense. Dit is al reeds genoem, en ek wil dit verder sê, ons sal verdere onrus in die land veroorsaak.

Hierdie onrus word opgeblaas en aangeblaas deur politieke opportuniste en wat die situasie uitbuit, en wat ‘n duidelike agenda het met die plaaslike verkiesing wat om die draai is.

Ek wil afsluit deur die oud-President van die ANC, kameraad Oliver Tambo, aan te haal wat teen 1971 in ‘n Nuwejaarsboodskap gesê het, en ek haal aan: (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Hon Chairperson of the Public Works Committee, members of this august House, I must say that I am less nervous because there is someone from the Northern Cape in the Chair!

It is my privilege to participate in this debate on behalf of the Northern Cape. This debate deals with “Bringing Parliament closer to the people”. This House gets its mandate to introduce a programme to get closer to the people from sections 43, 42, 68 and others.

Therefore this House has a unique responsibility to ensure greater public participation. In the words of the Chairperson of this House, the hon Mahlangu, in spite of the Local Government: Municipal Finance Management Act, the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act and the Disaster Management Act, there are still crises in local government. Therefore, the liaison with the community out there is of the utmost importance.

During this debate it is important to say that this House should not regard itself as inferior to its sister House, the National Assembly. It is not a secret anymore that the international community shows a greater interest in the activities of the National Council of Provinces.

The question is: Why? The answer to this is that this House is closer to the people and to the point of service delivery. It is the only House of this unique nature in the history of the world today.

It is also well known that anything that is new also experiences growing pains. However, we should not be disheartened by the growing pains of this House, but should much rather focus on the remarkable progress that we have made so far. Therefore we should continue to try to deal with the problems we are facing.

The principle of the separation of powers must enable us to continue to ensure that “the people shall govern”, as correctly stated in the Freedom Charter.

The Speaker of Ghana said on occasion that he did not refer to the opposition in the House as such, but much rather saw them as a minority party, because he believed that if he called them “opposition” he was afraid that they would oppose everything. After everything I have heard in this House today, I am convinced that this is more or less what is happening there. Therefore I would like to encourage this House rather to refer to “minority parties” than the “opposition”.

Major-General Opperman wrote in Die Volksblad of 1 June – and he writes with reference to something Prof Gilliomee said at a conference in Spain – and I quote:

‘n Groot aantal faktore dra by daartoe dat Afrikaners al meer voel hul taal en kultuur word opsetlik ondermyn.

Today I would like to say that it is nonsense and absurd. In section 36 of the Constitution precisely contains the entrenchment and protection of the Afrikaans language and culture.

However, there are a few white people who want to abuse the Afrikaans language for ethnic and racist reasons in order to polarise the country and stir up conflict. By speaking Afrikaans today I would like to prove the contrary and say that I am a Christian, Afrikaans-speaking and a member of the ANC.

Statistical data shows that more and more white liberals find it increasingly difficult to adjust to the new South Africa as opposed to white Afrikaners. The reason for this is that they hanker after the fleshpots of Egypt. It reminds me of the British settlers who raped and murdered our people in concentration camps during the Anglo-Boer War.

Today I would like to urge and advise these frustrated white Afrikaners, who are not being heard by their liberal colleagues, that the ANC is the solution for them. The ANC is the only true nonracial organisation. I quote Pablo Picasso, a Spanish artist who said in the 1800s:

From the sky, from the earth, from the scrap of paper, from a passing shape, from a spider’s web, we must pick out what is good for us . . .

And this I want to emphasise-

. . . where we can find it.

Listen to Picasso, and I want to say to the white Afrikaner: Do not allow yourselves to be colonised by these liberal colleagues of yours.

The ANC taught this country and its people the principles of democracy. It is our duty to build on it now, and therefore we must establish the new values and new norms, such as transparency, accountability and public participation as part of the strategy and programme of this House in our communities.

I would like to warn, associating myself with the Chairperson of this House, that we should not, however, create false expectations. If it so happens that this House and members of this House – and I participated in the programme there and saw the expression on people’s faces – do not call the Cabinet and the Executive Council of the Mpumalanga Legislature to account and do not assist them to solve the problems, our credibility with the people out there is going to be at stake. It has already been said, and I want to emphasise it; we will cause more unrest in the country.

This unrest is being inflated and fanned by political opportunists who are exploiting the situation, and who clearly have an agenda for the local elections that are around the corner.

I would like to conclude by quoting the former President of the ANC, Comrade Oliver Tambo, who said in a New Year’s message in 1971, and I quote:]

We who are free to eat and sleep at will, to write, to speak, to travel as we please, we who are free to make or break a revolution, let us use our comparative freedom, not to perpetuate the misery of those who suffer, not to give indirect aid to the enemy they fight by withholding our own contribution.

Although hon Tambo has passed on, his words are as true for our own challenges today, as they were for the situation he was addressing in 1971; because indeed, those of us who are free to eat and sleep at will should not perpetuate the misery of those who suffer, those who have no economic power, those who are marginalised and those who constitute the majority of our people by refusing to empower them so that they, too, can eat and sleep at will.

Die Noord-Kaap steun die Nasionale Raad van Provinsies met hierdie program, en steun ook inderdaad hierdie verslag. Ek dank u. [Applous.] [The Northern Cape supports the National Council of Provinces with this programme, and indeed also supports this report. I thank you. [Applause.]]

Mr M O ROBERTSON: Chairperson, hon members, hon special delegates and comrades, listening to the hon Thetjeng, I can’t remember if he used the word “coward” or “he is scared”, but he has obviously confirmed what he is because I can see they have left.

It was indeed a privilege to be part of taking Parliament to the people of Mpumalanga. The most touching experience for me was the eager enthusiasm of the people to interact with us as public representatives. It was a humbling experience to see first-hand the very real challenges that the people we represent are experiencing. We, as public representatives, should never forget why we are here and should keep in touch with those who put us in Parliament.

In the time allocated to me I will focus on the visits and interaction of the agricultural sector and the Expanded Public Works Programme in Mpumalanga. In so doing I will highlight some of the common challenges that we have come across and report on some of the recommendations.

In agriculture the access to finance is a major challenge. Resources must not only be put aside for the start-up of projects, but contingency funds should be set aside for unforeseen challenges that will arise - and in agriculture they will arise.

In agriculture there are many factors that the farmers have no control over. These include droughts, floods and changing market trends. Access to water remains a challenge. There is water available, but because of the disrepair of dams and irrigation channels, much of this valuable resource is lost before it reaches the land that it is supposed to irrigate.

Care should be given to the oversupply of certain commodities that negatively influence the markets. A good example of this is chicken farming, as experienced on a farm in Mpumalanga. The market exists but in many cases because of the lack of management and marketing skills, the emerging farmer lacks the ability to compete on the open market. This is where the Expanded Public Works Programme can do a lot of work. It is therefore clear that capital alone cannot address the problem. We need to look at ways to enhance management skills either through training or partnerships with existing commercial farmers, or a combination of both.

The Expanded Public Works Programme is of vital importance. Not only does it generate new job opportunities and the transferral of skills, it also ensures that the necessary infrastructure is put in place and existing infrastructure is upgraded and serviced.

It was clear from the visit that there is room for improvement in the communication and capacity between the Expanded Public Works Programme and its stakeholders. This will go a long way to ensuring that sufficient, effective monitoring of the quality of service provided is achieved.

Departments should be made aware of the need to promote labour- intensive programmes. The success of this lies also in ensuring that qualified supervisory staff forms part of the programmes and that skills are developed and transferred. The building of new and the maintenance of existing roads is a case in point.

By taking Parliament to the people, as we did in Mpumalanga, we have experienced the effect of our policies and programmes on the ground. Here I would like to thank the ANC-led government of Mpumalanga and its leadership for their hospitality while we were in their province. No number of sittings and hearings in Cape Town would have given us this insight and understanding. We cannot and should not do our work in a vacuum. Our work must always remain noted in our communities and amongst our country’s people.

That the people shall govern does not only mean that the people shall have the right to vote, but as the Freedom Charter clearly states, it also means that the people shall be entitled to take part in the administration of the country. Therefore Parliament should be accessible to as many people as possible. Public hearings in Parliament to some extent address this. However, we know that public hearings mainly accommodate organised civil society and sectoral groups.

The marginalised majority do not have the means to come to Parliament, so therefore Parliament must go to the people. We will not apologise for exercising democracy and taking Parliament as close to the people as possible.

When the people adopted the Freedom Charter on 26 June 1955 in Kliptown, they said that the people shall govern. Today we are making this a living reality and we, as representatives of all the people of South Africa, should be proud of this fact and not complain that we had to wake up a little earlier.

To represent the people of South Africa is indeed a privilege and not a right, and the opposition should take note of the spirit in which this should be done. My fellow comrades, the ANC does understand that it would be very difficult for the DA and its members to comprehend the significance of parliamentary sittings of this nature in the provinces.

Die DA het steeds vandag 50 jaar ná die aanvaarding van die Vryheidsmanifes én elf jaar van demokrasie nie die vermoë om die waarde van die Vryheidsmanifes te verstaan nie. Daarom, dat nie minder nie as hul hoofsweep, mnr Douglas Gibson, in die NV durf opstaan en die oorsprong en toespaslikheid van die Vryheidsmanifes in twyfel trek. Dit is ‘n skande.

Hou op hunker na die verlede en omarm die toekoms. En, hou op om dít wat vir die meerderheid Suid-Afrikaners belangrik is uit arrogansie en oningeligtheid af te breek. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Today, 50 years after the adoption of the Freedom Charter and after eleven years of democracy, the DA still does not have the ability to understand the value of the Freedom Charter. For that reason none other than their Chief Whip, Mr Douglas Gibson, dared to stand up in the National Assembly and cast doubt on the origin and appropriateness of the Freedom Charter. This is a disgrace.

Stop hankering after the past and embrace the future. And stop running down, through arrogance and a lack of information, that which is important to the majority of South Africans.]

I thank you, Chair. [Applause.]

Ms S MANGENA (Limpopo): Hon Chairperson, I saw you looking around. I believe that you were looking for the “hon Mankena”, not “Mangena”. I am Mangena. I believe you have changed the other one and you now call him “Mankena”.

Modulasetulo, ke tloge ke leboga sebaka seo o mphilego sona gore ke tle ke emele profense ya rena tabeng ya go iša phalamente setšhabeng – go la Mpumalanga. [Chairperson, let me thank you for this opportunity you have given me to represent my province on the issue of Taking Parliament to the People in Mpumalanga.]

We who are gathered here were witnesses to what we saw, what we heard and what was said by the people of Mpumalanga from 14 to 18 March. There are those who would sometimes say that our people do not have management skills and don’t have marketing skills. But what I realised when I was in Mpumalanga was that those people have those skills. The only thing that they don’t have is capacity. What we are supposed to do as government is to capacitate them. When one looks at what is being done by women in Mpumalanga, one realises that they are doing something very, very good.

Ge re ka ya serapeng sa diphoofolo sa Tshwane, . . . [If we visit the Tshwane Zoo . . .]

. . . where those women are selling their things, it really shows that those women know what they are doing. The only thing is that they don’t know where to go and sell their products and the government should do that for them. I believe we will make sure that we make our women grow in whatever they do.

Se sengwe gape, ga se gore rena re le bomme re a palelwa. Eupša . . . [The other thing is, it does not necessarily mean that we, as women, are not capable, but . . .]

. . . I was very happy when they said Parliament was coming to Mpumalanga. During the break I went out and talked to some people around there. The people were really happy to see their leaders who are in Parliament. What they actually said was: “We didn’t know Thoko Didiza. We didn’t know Naledi Pandor.” They were only used to hearing them over the radio – those who have radios. Most of our people in rural areas don’t have that.

Another thing that I would like to say is that while I really do believe that Parliament was taken to the people of Mpumalanga, it was not really taken to the rural people of Mpumalanga. If we want to take Parliament to rural areas, let us take it to rural areas, not to semirural and semi-urban areas. We must make sure that we sleep there. We should empower those people by sleeping in their houses, their lodges and everywhere where we could really make sure that we pay. Waking up in Pretoria and travelling to Mpumalanga didn’t really do the people of Mpumalanga any good. They said it straight to me.

Mma, re kwa bohloko ka gore batho ba ga ba robale mo di-lodgeng tša rena; batho ba ga ba robale mo go diB-en-B tša rena. [Madam, we are distressed because people do not sleep at our lodges, people do not sleep at our B & Bs.]

They actually wanted to see the government leave something behind for those people.

Re reka go bona – e ka dipanana, ditamati, dieiye goba eng – re le kgauswi le bona gore ge re sepela ka Labohlano re tlogelele batho bao se sengwenyana. [We buy from them - be it bananas, tomatoes, onions or whatever it is - when we are near them, so that when we leave on Friday, we leave something for those people.]

It doesn’t mean that when we take Parliament to the people we should go to Polokwane, right in town. We shouldn’t do that. Okay, we are not like Gauteng. They know that they don’t have rural areas, unless they are talking about places such as Winterveld and Orange Farm. They think those are rural areas. To me, Winterveld is not a rural area; to me, Orange Farm is not a rural area. Hon Gungubele is really laughing about this. This is very, very serious. Hon Mazibuko, don’t worry, I know where you come from.

Our people have shown that they have been yearning for democracy. That is why they came in numbers to talk to elected leaders. It is because of this yearning that the NCOP saw fit to visit the people of Mpumalanga.

Our President, Thabo Mbeki, when opening the 51st congress of the ANC in Stellenbosch, mentioned that the people of South Africa made the common determination that our country belongs to all who live in it, be they black or white. The principle of taking Parliament to the people embodies, among other things, adherence to the clause of the Freedom Charter that says, “the people shall govern”. We will celebrate the 50th anniversary of the Freedom Charter this month.

We also want to imbue our people with the vision of an alternative society, compared to the society we inherited. It should also be borne in mind that democracy requires that citizens should be continuously engaged in governance through interaction with those who make decisions. I can say with a clear mind that, through this ANC-led government, that happens continuously.

When I went out during lunch, as I have already indicated, I found out that people were really happy to see their leaders. They talked to them, asked questions and had their questions answered precisely and satisfactorily. The Ministers, MECs, MPLs and councillors were there and explained what their departments are doing. Issues concerning land, the Expanded Public Works Programme, school policies, social grants, housing, water, electricity and health were explained very, very well. Our magoši [chiefs] who were there were also happy with what happened because we had invited them. They came there and they talked to the people. They were asked questions and they answered them precisely.

One knows that it’s difficult for our people in the rural areas to be able to afford to go to where our legislatures are. We can alleviate that difficulty by going to them ourselves. On this note I would like to propose that the legislature’s sittings should be held in rural areas so as to give our people a chance to meet our government, not only when there are functions and events.

In the past I for one didn’t know the Ministers in Lebowa. The only chance I got to know Phatudi was when he came to our school. I never knew the other Ministers until I met them when we had problems in Lebowa during the time of Sadtu. It was only then that I started to know that, “This is the Minister of education, and he is Mr-So-and So; this is the Minister of interior affairs, and he is Mr-So-and So”. I think such things are not supposed to happen with this ANC-led government.

We should go to the people. We shouldn’t only let people put crosses against our names and then disappear. It is our duty to go back to them and talk to them. The people of Mpumalanga were very excited about that visit. For the first time they saw some of our people. They were happy and wanted to find out: Are all those people seated on that other side Ministers?

The other thing that I observed was that on Monday we really made a blunder by holding our sitting in the hall. When we went out into the marquee on the following day, people were very excited and happy because we never said, “MPLs, MPs and others should sit in front”. But what we did was to make sure that everybody sat wherever they wanted to sit and they were all happy, especially when they were given microphones to ask questions.

Regarding Limpopo, comrade Mazibuko said that what I said was lies. It’s true, hon Mazibuko. Limpopo started to take Parliament to the people on 8 March. As women of Limpopo, we met in Giyani and then we discussed issues that concern women. We took our Parliament there instead of holding it in the legislature. On 14 May, instead of holding the youth parliament in the legislature, we are going to Bohlabelo. It is going to be held there. Hon Chairperson, I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr R J TAU: Mohlomphegi Mangena, ke kgopela gore o nkinele matsogo meetseng. Ba re go Tsamaya ke go bona; go dira ke go ithuta. [Hon Mangena, I would like to ask you to forgive me. It is said that the more places you visit, the more you learn; we learn to do things through practising.]

Mr J M MTHEMBU (Mpumalanga): Chairperson, it is an honour for us to be part of this debate in this august House the image of which other people are really trying to trash its image. I thought that it was only the DA members in Mpumalanga who misbehave, but now it is clear that we have serious problems there. We have a lot to do in terms of teaching people how to behave.

That is why our province has resolved that hon Tony Leon’s act of marching out of Parliament during the debate of the President’s Budget, was an act that our province indeed condemn - it is on our records.

We as a province have also condemned the actions and pronouncements of hon Gibson regarding the Freedom Charter and we are here to condemn their marching out of this august House. [Applause.] Activities such as our wars of resistance against the colonial regime Mangawong, Kliptown, the conference for the democratic future, CODESA - and indeed, the first democratic Parliament and taking Parliament to KwaMhlanga - are the ones that will live long in our memories because they meant so much to us. That is why when we debate the subject of taking Parliament to Mpumalanga, other people who were not part of, not as close to the hurt all of us have suffered, were able to march out of this Parliament. That is because they have not been part of ensuring that we get this dispensation that we enjoy. They have not been part of the fights; they have not been part of the freedom struggles and, indeed, this debate to them is not a debate.

It is indeed an honour for us to debate this. The notion of taking Parliament to the people as evidenced by the success of the office in the Mpumalanga chapter is an important, single development in the life of this august House. It is also an important, single development in the 10 years of our democratic dispensation. The Mpumalanga chapter was able to bring together in one city the izingwenyama, amakhosi, the Deputy President, Premiers, Ministers, MECs, national MPs, provincial MPLs, mayors and councillors; as well as various sectors of our ordinary people, including farmers, the disabled, the youth, the employed and the unemployed.

That sitting in KwaMhlanga was also able to bring together those who were housed and those who were not housed. This ability of the NCOP to do the above is worth applauding. The various delegations of MPs and MPLs and councillors visited the various work stations to ensure our continued efforts to better the lives of our people. I mean the oversight visits to schools; our oversight visits to hospitals, clinics, and home-based care groupings have, amongst other things, left unforgettable experiences with those who were visited.

I say so because I come from that province. Even as we debate this matter today, there are people who are saying: We are governing because our own Parliament was able to come to us. We were able to share our frustrations and whatever challenges with our own public representatives.” This was also an unforgettable experience for us as public representatives.

We came to grips with the challenges that our people live with on a day-to- day basis. The challenge that the Chair of this august House has raised with us is something that is worth commenting on. The hon member Mahlangu says that we have to put systems in place that ensure that whatever matters we have agreed upon during taking Parliament to the people are followed up and, indeed, there are developments around those issues. I can’t agree, I think the NCOP needs to put in place those systems so that the provinces can link up with them.

The hon J L Mahlangu from our province has already responded to some of the activities and responses that our executive has made to the report. Indeed ours is a province that works. We are at work to respond to all the issues that have been raised by our people. As a provincial legislature, indeed we will put this report before Parliament. We will make this report a report of our Parliament so that it will then enable our Parliament to oversee all issues that are raised in this report with our executive.

As part of our normal legislative process we will also use this report of Parliament and see to it that our Cabinet knows of the matters that are raised in the report. I therefore can’t agree much with the suggestions by the Chairperson of this august House, hon Mahlangu, who says that at some time, the NCOP working together with the Mpumalanga Provincial Legislature, must still come back to this august House and say - on all these issues that were raised during taking Parliament to Mpumalanga, on each and every issue - what has been done and how far have we gone in terms of progress made.

We have also used the issues that were raised in KwaMhlanga in questions that we raised with the executive. A number of challenges that have been raised by our people were reiterated in the form of questions to the executive House and they have been responded to. Learning from this experience that we have had in KwaMhlanga, as a legislature, we have also taken our legislature to the people of Msukalikwa, a subregion of Mpumalanga. We also intend to take our Parliament during the commemoration of the Freedom Charter to another subregion of Mpumalanga, Nkomazi.

Let us once again reiterate our thanks to the leadership of the NCOP for coming to our province, for taking Parliament to the province. Secondly, we know that as we go to other provinces, indeed we will do whatever we have to do to ensure that there is better co-ordination between the NCOP and the hosting province concerned.

Mr T MARAIS (Free State): Hon Chairperson, at a global level we have committed ourselves to the UN Millennium Development Goals as contained in “ A Compact Amongst Nations”. At a continental level we are committed to the African Union, the Pan-African Parliament and Nepad. At the regional level there is SADC and we are totally committed to it. At home we entered into a people’s contract to create work and fight poverty.

The stout-heartedness and vision of the people of our country when they convened in Kliptown in 1955 to produce the Freedom Charter inspired us to commit ourselves fully to the project of universal, sustainable human development.

Taking Parliament to the people and putting our people first, as recently undertaken by the NCOP and some provincial legislatures, is highly commendable. It basically achieved two things: It epitomised the principles chronicled in the Freedom Charter, especially as it relates to, “the people shall govern.” Secondly, it strengthened and legitimises further the position of our hon President, Comrade Thabo Mbeki and our hon Deputy President, Jacob Zuma and all other persons who have been officially mandated to represent us on the world stage.

The excellent work performed by members of the NCOP moves this institution ever closer to what can be referred to as a provincial development laboratory, an institution where ideas ought to filter up, as well as down, where the merits of the idea carry more weight than its source, and where participation and shared objectives are constantly valued.

In accordance with the Municipal Finance Management Act, mayors are compelled to publish municipal budgets three months before the Council finally passes them. In total, John Public is accorded at least 60 days to engage with them, and where necessary, propose changes to provisional allocations. This arrangement gives concrete expression to the principles of a people-centred, people-driven democracy. Ownership of the budget and attendant dynamics like IDPs, will eventually reside with the people.

At provincial and, to a degree, national level, public participation as it relates to the budget comes after the fact. When budgets are tabled in the legislatures they are basically fait accompli. The activities of the legislatures must be reorganised to resonate with the noble intention of the MFMA. As with municipalities, ownership should reside with the people.

The months February to April are extremely busy months because budgets are tabled in the respective houses and need to be considered and disposed of as a matter of urgency. In September, October and November on the other hand, there is heightened activity caused by essential instruments like the annual reports, medium-term budget policy statements or the baby DORA, as it is commonly known, and the Adjustments Estimates. Therefore, March and April, October and November must be dedicated to taking Parliament to the people.

The strategic conversation with our people must be conducted on a 360º basis. That is to fetch, collate and process contributions made by our people, but also to consult with them afterwards and explain how their concerns and needs have been incorporated into the budgets, or otherwise. Therefore, armed with the annual reports, MTB statements and the Adjustments budgets in October and November, provincial legislatures, together with permanent delegates, should conduct MTEF public hearings in the provinces during these two months.

Among the many benefits, I would like to submit at least three: Our people will be afforded the opportunity to be briefed about outcomes of the previous financial year. Exposing them to the performance of government can only engender a greater sense of accountability and transparency. Invariably, they will be provided with an enhanced opportunity to influence adjustment estimates.

The Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement provides an image of the future. Conducting MTEF public hearings at this time will enable our communities to start influencing and owning future budgets, these hearings and subsequent reports will precede Cabinet lekgotlas normally held during December and January, where final adjustments are made and figures solidified.

Taking Parliament to the people during March and April should primarily be utilised for report-back. At this stage communities must be informed about how their inputs have been considered. Arguably, this would reduce the amount of time spent on something that cannot be altered.

If people-centeredness is all about ethical and moral considerations, and people-driven processes are all about legitimacy, then taking Parliament to the people must be a conscious effort to enable our people to become architects of their own destinies.

Other matters that are of instrumental necessity as they pertain to participatory democracy are, inter alia, that the legacy of illiteracy caused by years of deprivation also necessitates us to look at the type of materials produced. It is especially difficult for our people to interact with budgets and if people cannot interact with the instruments that Parliament produces, it then means that it is still a one-way process, and it means that they - and I am saying this with great sensitivity - then still remain passive recipients of what we bring to them.

Every year Treasury produces an annual national budget process schedule. This instrument is of cardinal importance because other spheres of government must organise their calendars of budget activities accordingly, and, in addition, timeous production of said instrument instils a greater sense of predictability. The NCOP is ideally positioned to impress on Treasury the need to produce this instrument in good time.

A defining principle of most, if not all, constitutional democracies is that the basic power of the purse resides with the legislature. Our Constitution provides for such and it is my humble submission that the NCOP can be instrumental in the crafting of legislation that would enable legislatures to amend budgets.

Now that the IDPs, provincial growth and development strategies and national spatial development perspectives have been harmonised, it is herewith recommended that the NCOP obtain these as soon as possible. In the process of profiling provinces, these are catalytic.

Legislatures, including the NCOP, must, as a rule, establish and implement a comprehensive strategic and sustainable public participation and education programme. Progressive NGOs need to be identified or established and adequately funded to facilitate the public education process. [Time expired.][Applause.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, special delegates, it’s unfortunate that some people started fires, but could not stand the heat. But it must be said that politics is not for the fainthearted. So, I’ll proceed and say whatever I have prepared to say, because I know, wherever they are, they are following these discussions on the television monitors that we have in Parliament. But I will propose at the next Rules Committee meeting that we should have a rule in the NCOP that any party that decides to walk out en masse without even bowing to the hon presiding officer, must not be allowed back until it has accounted for that unprofessional and unparliamentary action. I will start by quoting what the Premier of the hosting province, the hon T S P Makwetla, said:

Our province wants you to know that we indeed consider ourselves privileged to have been accorded the opportunity to play host to today’s outing of the NCOP away from its regular seat. Your commitment to the spirit of the Constitution of the Republic, to build a people-centred democracy, will remain an inspiration to the public representatives and the people of Mpumalanga.

These words were said during the last sitting, on Friday, during which the Deputy President addressed us. The Deputy President further cemented the impact and success of this noble and glorious programme by the following words:

The mobility of the National Council Of Provinces indicates that our Parliament and government are serious about the development of a democracy that is founded on the principles of the participation of the people.

I must say that we are doing this within the constitutional dispensation, as outlined in section 63(3) of the Constitution, which says:

The sittings of the National Council of Provinces are permitted at places other than the seat of Parliament on the grounds of public interest, security or convenience, and if provided for in the rules and orders of the Council.

We must say that we did achieve our objective of public participation, which is a democratic principle and also a constitutional obligation of this House. Furthermore, we must also say that we ensured that while we were there, participatory democracy took place in action. We had Ministers, we had MECs, we had district mayors, and we had local municipality mayors, coming from as far as Standerton, who attended that particular outreach programme.

We must say that it’s also in the spirit of the ANC’s contract with our people. It must further be said that other people, who have federalist policies within their organisation, decided to abuse the fact that we were going to an underdeveloped area, one of the poverty pockets of Mpumalanga which doesn’t have infrastructure to the extent where you can have, as the Constitution requires, secured accommodation for members of Parliament.

Hence we moved to the neighbouring province, Gauteng, which is still part of South Africa. Those who have federalist notions project the matter as if we slept in Swaziland, as if we slept outside the country, but we did interact with the leadership of the province, and we said in future we would have to find a way of resolving such matters. We must say that those of us who have been in the ANC for a long time know that the issue of the provinces was not our position; it was only a compromise in the negotiations.

But as much as we were secure from our point of accommodation to the venue, we had to have security - as we had KwaZulu-Natal and in the Eastern Cape. The DA members were part of that particular convoy; now they are saying we were wasting taxpayers’ money. If you calculate the costs, the money we spent is not close to that which the apartheid regime used to spend on buying grenades, pump action guns, rubber bullets, tear gas, and so on.

Actually, I have been told that the hon Watson lives about 15 kilometres from Pretoria, but he enjoyed the Sheraton Hotel with all the other members of the DA. [Laughter.] They actually brought their families into the hotel.

We are also protected by security here in Parliament and even where we are staying. Where Mr Thetjeng is staying in Laboria, in the ANC house, he is protected by the very same security, but then he doesn’t complain about taxpayers’ money.

We must also indicate to the public that the DA played a destructive role from the onset. As we were preparing for this programme they came with technical obstacles. Mr Thetjeng has quoted a resolution, which we passed, and the resolution states clearly:

Notwithstanding Rule 21(2)(c), the Council, in terms of Rule 21(2), resolves that in the interest of enhancing public participation, as provided for in section 72(1)(a) and (b) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa . . .

It then says that we should visit Mpumalanga. But the cornerstone of the resolution is that it is not contrary to that Rule. So, it was not that we intentionally wanted to violate that particular Rule, but it is a case of hearing a person talking good English, but lacking the intelligence to understand that particular standard of English.

It must also be said that during the last term we didn’t have many problems like this from the DA. We had the hon Lever, the hon Raju and other members who were opposing us in terms of policy, but in terms of behaviour they were behaving like parliamentarians. I think there must be a distinction made in terms of that.

Maybe they still have the political hangover they suffered when we bamboozled them with that motion in KwaZulu-Natal – I don’t know. But the point is that when we go on these outreaches to meet our people, they always isolate themselves and remain in their own cocoon, which is a white laager, only peopled by two black members in the majority of white people.

While our presiding officers in Mpumalanga, the NCOP Chairperson and provincial speaker, were having constant media briefings, marketing and informing the public about this programme, they were running their own separate media briefings, saying negative things about their own NCOP programme. What do we expect from such people? Can you say that they have the interest of the people at heart?

The hon Watson lied, because he was enjoying it. As Mr Sitolo said, it was his first time to address such a huge crowd. He tried to speak in isiZulu, saying: “Bayangazi ugusuka lapha KwaMhlanga uku ndlula eLoskop Dam ukuyo fika eKomatipoort.” [“They know me here at KwaMhlanga, past Loskop Dam up to Komatipoort.”]

But the fact of the matter is that my late mother who died being an ANC card-carrying member will say that she doesn’t know Mr Watson. At some point my late mother asked me who this Leon is? Where was he?

Uthi ube angasi isotsha nje? Ngasho kumama wami ukuthi ube alisotsha kodwa hai leli elilwela inkululeko kodwa leli beli siqindezela. [Is it not so that he was a soldier? I told my mother that he was a soldier, but not the kind who was fighting for freedom; he was a soldier who oppressed us.]

So you can also understand how an organisation which is led by a person who has such a background will behave in the new South Africa.

I want to say, all said and done, we must accept that this programme is the first of its kind to take Parliament to the people. It thus takes us on a learning curve, as the hon NCOP Chairperson has indicated. We have identified certain loopholes, and we will be putting measures in place, so that by the time we visit the ninth province . . .

NgeSiswati kutabe kunuka I-NCOP kuyo yonkhe leNingizimu Afrika. [There will be talk about the NCOP in the whole South Africa.]

As much progress as we have made, there are other provinces that have already asked that we come to visit them. The Northern Cape requested it in public. KwaZulu-Natal wants us to go back, but we have made a decision that we will be going to Limpopo.

The Chairperson of the NCOP told me that Algeria and Japan wanted to know how we manage to take Parliament to the people. As my time has expired, as an hon member of this House, I thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr R T Tau): Order! I shall now put the question, and the question is that the Report be adopted. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all the delegation heads are present. Are they present?

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. Are there any provinces that wish to make a declaration?

HON MEMBERS: None.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr R T Tau): We shall now proceed to the voting on the question, and I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour of or against or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Mr M O ROBERTSEN: Eastern Cape supports, Chair.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr R T Tau): Free State?

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN: Vrystaat steun. [Free State supports.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr R T Tau): Gauteng?

Mr M GUNGUBELE: We support, Chair.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr R T Tau): KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr D D GAMEDE: Iyayisekela. [We support.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr R T Tau): Limpopo?

Ms S MANGENA: We do agree.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr R T Tau): Mpumalanga?

Mr B J MKALIPHI: Mpumalanga iyavuma. [Mpumalanga agrees.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr R T Tau): Northern Cape?

Mr K SINCLAIR: Ons steun. [We support.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr R T Tau): North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: Ke ya rona. [Laughter.] [We support.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr R T Tau): Western Cape?

Mr N MACK: Western Cape supports.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr R T Tau): Noting that all provinces have voted in favour, I shall declare the report as adopted by this House. [Applause.]

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND RECREATION – OVERSIGHT VISIT TO THE EASTERN CAPE PROVINCE

                             (Statement)

Mr B J TOLO: Chairperson, the Select Committee on Education, Recreation, Arts and Culture, Science and Technology undertook an oversight visit to the Eastern Cape province from 8 to 12 November 2004. The aim of the visit was to check the implementation of national legislation and policy, as far as education is concerned.

You will be aware that we are tabling this report six months after the visit, and some of the issues we raised in the report might have been overtaken by events. Nonetheless, we will table them and we hope we will be able to improve in future and table our reports on time.

The full report is in the Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports and we urge all members to read it. Here we will just highlight a few of the issues that we found there. On the first day of our visit we had a meeting with the MEC for Education, Comrade Matomela, and his top officials. The MEC was very open in briefing us on the challenges that the province face in the sphere of education. We want to thank MEC Matomela for the honest assessment of the situation in that province.

The Department of Education in the Eastern Cape has been characterised by instability since its inception in 1994. Both political and administrative leaderships have changed as in no other province in the country. In the period of 10 years, since 1994, this department has had nine Heads of Department and six MECs. This means that the department has had about one Head of Department for each year and one MEC for each two years.

It is in our view that this does not augur well for efficient and effective service delivery. At the time when the department had an overexpenditure of about R600 million in the Eastern Cape, and it was paying R3,5 million monthly to service this debt, upon enquiry we discovered that, actually, there was a mistake in the budgeting process over the years. It was not the problem of the department at that particular time, and we are assured that this problem is now being sorted out.

Infrastructure development is a very serious problem in this province, especially in the former Transkei region. The majority of schools in the area are mud schools and are a potential disaster. Some children attend classes in church buildings that are not adjacent to the schools to which they belong. This makes it impossible for the co-ordination and maintenance of discipline.

The other challenge for the province is the high vacancy rate. Many principals are also acting and some of them have been doing so for up to three years. We urge that teachers and principals be employed on a full- time basis, as this will contribute a lot to stabilising the schools and, by extension, the Department of Education in the province.

The province receives R177 million as a conditional grant for school nutrition. We want to put it on record that this amount is, by far, inadequate to feed all the deserving children in that province. As a result, there are school children who deserve to be fed but are not fed. This puts the children in a disadvantaged position and will also affect their learning.

Scholar transport is but one other problem that we find there. However, we also want to hasten to say that all is not gloomy in the province, as there are schools that we have visited in the townships that are going very well and becoming the envy of many other provinces. These are schools like Fandigaqa in Buffalo City and schools like Masiphathane High School in the Nelson Mandela Metro.

Overall, we think that the Department of Education in the province is now trying very hard to solve its problems. We have no doubt in our minds that it will succeed, and we urge this House to adopt the report and the recommendations that we put forward. Thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms M P Themba): Order! Thank you very much, hon B J Tolo, the Chairperson of the Select Committee on Education and Recreation.

That concludes the debate, and I shall now put the question that the report be adopted. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all the delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. Are all the delegation heads present? In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of votes, if they so wish.

We shall now proceed to voting on that question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province, and delegation heads must please indicated to the Chair whether they vote in favour of, against or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Mr M O ROBERTSEN: Eastern Cape e a thekga. [Eastern Cape supports.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms M P Themba): Free State?

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN: Vrystaat steun. [Free State supports.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms M P Themba): Gauteng?

Mr M GUGUNBELE: Re a dumela. [We agree.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms M P Themba): KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr D D GAMEDE: Iyawusekela. [Supports.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms M P Themba): Limpopo?

Ms S MANGENA: Re a dumela, mma. [We agree, madam.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms M P Themba): Mpumalanga?

Mr B J MKALIPHI: iMpumalanga ihambisana nawo. [Mpumalanga agrees with it.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms M P Themba): Northern Cape?

Mr K SINCLAIR: Northern Cape supports.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms M P Themba): North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: Ke ya rona. [We support.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms M P Themba): Western Cape?

Mr N MACK: Wes-Kaap steun. [Western Cape supports.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Ms M P Themba): Nine provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the report adopted.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON LAND AND ENVIRONMENTAL  AFFAIRS - PROVINCIAL STUDY TOUR TO NORTH WEST, MPUMALANGA, EASTERN CAPE AND
                       WESTERN CAPE PROVINCES

Mr N MACK: Chairperson, hon members, while we celebrate the 50th anniversary of our Freedom Charter, which dictates that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, black and white, this week is National Environment Week whose theme is appropriately, “Our environment belongs to all who live in it”. This is an inducement to all our people to take good care of our environment, and to have it preserved, conserved and protected for generations to come.

This visit of the committee to the provinces is testimony to the above- mentioned associations, and is amongst the observations and revelations confirming the above, in that aquaculture is the managed production of aquatic organisms through the breeding and stocking of fish, amphibians, reptiles, invertebrates and aquarium plants. Our challenges and responsibilities as this government are the alleviation of poverty and job creation. Aquaculture has the potential to positively contribute to food security, especially to rural livelihoods. This is made further possible by the food that small-scale commercial aquaculture can produce.

We commend the commitment of especially the department of agriculture, conservation and environment to embarking on a process to develop this sector and to make the necessary commitments to ensure the success of rural aquaculture in these provinces.

We should be further grateful for the work currently being done by the Department of Ichthyology and Fisheries Science of Rhodes University on developing aquaculture within the rural sector. This definitely implies that there is the possibility of this sector expanding to the entire province, thus contributing to our challenges of job creation and poverty alleviation.

The Departments of Water Affairs and Forestry and of Agriculture need to expedite the development of the national policy for aquaculture so we can enable the relevant stakeholders. This will also enable the select committee to consult with all relevant people and organisations to gain insight into the best practices that can be initiated on various levels in the development of this sector and industry.

These endeavours also happen at a time when all efforts in the country, led by the ANC government, are being made to ensure that the wealth of this nation is shared amongst all, and that transformation, whether social or economic, is seen to be happening in all spheres and sectors in this country.

We hope that in the interests of ensuring a better life for all our people, we start seeing or hearing about proposals and action plans at the earliest possible time with regard to developing a full-scale rural aquaculture sector in the North West province, which will include the employment of staff with skills, the provision of the infrastructure likely to be used and the availability of funds to start pilot projects, among other things.

It is saddening to note the following anomalies in the province, which should be attended to immediately. There is a huge backlog in the delivery of sanitation services; a slow transfer of assets to municipalities, a situation which impacts considerably on service delivery; the underspending of budgeted funds by the Rustenburg Municipality; and limited infrastructure in rural areas with no attempts being made to remedy this in the short or long term, a situation that, again, is hampering the effective delivery of the provision of water and sanitation services which are basic needs and rights of our communities.

The situation with regard to water and sanitation in Mpumalanga was the same as in the North West. The appropriate skilling of municipality officials is a matter needing urgent attention if the ideals and objectives of our government are to be achieved and our people to benefit from all the efforts that the government is making to make their lives better.

I see I have lots of time left. [Laughter.] It upset me very much when the DA left, because I wanted to tell them a story about my constituency, Klaarstroom. It is about 500km from Cape Town. The past and previous government never came to Klaarstroom.

When I went there I met an old mama who told me that once upon a time they said the Minister was coming to Klaarstroom. They lined all of them up next to the road, put flags in their hands and, as the Minister passed, they were just supposed to wave.

But, as she told me, the windows were tinted. So they never knew there was anyone inside, only to read the next day that the car was on its way to be put on the plane from George to Cape Town. So there was no one in that car. And that is what they are still trying to do to our people.

In my constituency, a deep rural constituency, our people have never so visibly seen our government, our MECs, our Ministers, our MPs, our MPLs and officials. They are queuing up and waiting for us to come there. They are very excited. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M P Themba): Order! Thank you, hon member. That was the fourth Order of the Day. I shall now put the question. The question is that the report be adopted. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. Are all delegation heads present? Yes.

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces an opportunity to make a declaration of vote if they so wish. We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour of, against or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Mr M O ROBERTSEN: Eastern Cape supports, Chair.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M P Themba): Free State?

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN: Free State supports.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M P Themba): Gauteng?

Mr M GUNGUBELE (Gauteng): Siyavuma. [We agree.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M P Themba): KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr D D GAMEDE: Iyayisekela. [We support.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M P Themba): Limpopo?

Ms S MANGENA (Limpopo): Re ya ka yona. [We support.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M P Themba): Mpumalanga?

Mr B J MKHALIPHI: Siyavuma. [We agree.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M P Themba): Northern Cape?

Mr K SINCLAIR: Noord-Kaap steun. [Northern Cape supports.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M P Themba): North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: North West ke ya rona. [North West supports.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M P Themba): Western Cape?

Mr N MACK: Western Cape supports.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M P Themba): All provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the Report adopted. [Applause.] Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON LAND AND ENVIRONMENTAL    AFFAIRS - PARTICIPATION IN WORLD CONSERVATION CONGRESS HELD IN BANGKOK,
                              THAILAND

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M P Themba): I now call the hon Rev P Moatshe, the chairperson of the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs.

Rev P MOATSHE: Chairperson, in closing the session, the two committees, the portfolio committee and the select committee, managed to send delegations to the World Conservation Congress held in Bangkok, Thailand, from 17 to 25 November 2004 which had the theme “People and Nature - only one world”.

Concern for global environmental sustainability is an essential part of the mission of the World Conservation Union to fight poverty. The most biodiverse-rich areas on the planet are found in some of the world’s poorest nations. It is the poor and the poorest of the poor who suffer disproportionately from environmental degradation, often because of a lack of other options.

Biological resources provide the raw materials for livelihoods, subsistence, agriculture, trade, medicines and industrial development. Natural habitats and ecosystems provide services, such as maintaining high- quality water resources, and coastal protection that reduce human vulnerability to natural hazards, such as droughts and hurricanes. Forests, grasslands and aquatic habitats also provide benefits of global value, such as carbon sequestration, nutrient and hydrological cycling, and biodiversity conservation.

The IUCN World Conservation Congress is a valuable opportunity for the global community to come together to address these very serious issues and to explore the relationships between people, development and conservation through its four themes, namely, ecosystem management; health, poverty and conservation; biodiversity loss and species extinction; and markets, business and the environment.

Other congress goals were to approve the 2005-2008 IUCN programme and financial plan; elect the President of the World Conservation Union and other officers; table the 2003-2004 commissions’ reports on ecosystem management; education and communication; environmental, economic and social policy; environmental law; species survival; and of the World Commission on Protected Areas; and consider motions and adopt resolutions at plenary level.

Whilst the above objectives were crucial, one of the key objectives, namely, the election of the President of the World Conservation Union, was of particular importance to the South African parliamentary delegation. The delegation, in collaboration with senior officials from the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism, played an active lobbying role, which culminated in the nomination and election of Mr Valli Moosa as the President of the World Conservation Union. I think that has to be applauded. [Applause.] Heartfelt congratulations go to to Mr Moosa who was instrumental in the advancement and envisioning of South African conservation over the past 10 years.

While the delegation endorsed the programme and species-related resolutions passed at the congress, the committee maintains that it is imperative for their work to undertake the following during the 2005 parliamentary committee period: to call upon the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism and the World Conservation Union to brief members on the purpose and functions of the commission, such as ecosystem management, education and communication on environmental issues, and on environmental law, species survival and protected areas; and for the two above environmental bodies to appear before the committees to brief members on the 2005-2008 IUCN programme.

Based on the recommendations made during the World Conservation Congress in November 2004, the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism briefed the committees on strategies and plans put in place to ensure the implementation of the World Conservation Congress resolutions. I place this report before the House for adoption. Thank you. [Applause.] Debate concluded.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M P Themba): Order! Thank you, hon P Moatshe, for the comprehensive report. I shall now put the question. The question is that the report be adopted. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. Are all delegation heads present? Yes.

We shall now proceed to voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour of, against, or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Mr M O ROBERTSEN: Eastern Cape supports, Chair.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M P Themba): Free State?

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN: Free State supports.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M P Themba): Gauteng?

Mr M GUNGUBELE (Gauteng): We agree.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M P Themba): KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr D D GAMEDE: Siyayisekela, Sihlalo. [We support, Chairperson.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M P Themba): Limpopo?

Ms H F MATLANYANE: Ha pfumela. [We agree.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M P Themba): Mpumalanga?

Mr B J MKHALIPHI: We support.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M P Themba): Northern Cape?

Mr K SINCLAIR: Northern Cape supports.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M P Themba): North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: Ke a rona. [Supports.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M P Themba): Western Cape?

Mr N MACK: Wes-Kaap steun. [Western Cape supports.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M P Themba): All provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the report adopted. [Applause.]

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M P Themba): Order! The Chief Whip has an announcement to make.

      CALLING OF JOINT SITTING TO BID FAREWELL TO OUTGOING CHIEF JUSTICE
                                                              CHASKALSON

                           (Announcement)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Thank you very much, Acting Chairperson. Tomorrow a joint sitting has been requested by the hon President of the Republic of South Africa to bid farewell to the retiring Chief Justice, Arthur Chaskalson. We have defined the sitting to be a three-line whip in that attendance is compulsory, unless you are hospitalised.

It is indicated in the broad parliamentary programme that the formal part of the sitting starts at 11:00 and continues until 12:30. Also, there will be other activities in which the President will be handing over a certificate to the outgoing Chief Justice and also to the incoming one, the changing of the robes, and so on. Therefore all members are required to be seated by 09:30. Thank you very much.

The Council adjourned at 18:55. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS


                       WEDNESDAY, 8 JUNE 2005

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. Message from President

   The Speaker and the Chairperson received the following message dated 3 June 2005, from the President, requesting that a Joint Sitting of the National Assembly and the National Council of Provinces be convened:

   CALLING OF A JOINT SITTING OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY AND THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

   In terms of section 84(2)(d) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1996 (Act No 108 of 1996), read with Rule 7(1)(b) of the Joint Rules of Parliament, I hereby call a joint sitting of the National Assembly and the National Council of Provinces on Friday, 10 June 2005 at 11h00, in order to bid farewell to the outgoing Chief Justice of South Africa, Arthur Chaskalson, and to welcome the incoming leadership of the judiciary, Chief Justice Pius Langa and Deputy Chief Justice Dikgang Moseneke.

   I further request hereby, that special arrangements be made, in line with the Joint Rules of Parliament, to enable retired Chief Justice Chaskalson to participate in the debates by way of a Reply.

   Yours sincerely

   Signed THABO MBEKI

2. Introduction of Bills

 (1)    The Minister of Finance


    (i)      Taxation Laws Amendment Bill [B 19 – 2005] (National
          Assembly – sec 77)


    (ii)     Taxation Laws Second Amendment Bill [B 20 – 2005]
          (National Assembly – sec 75) [Explanatory summary of Bill and
          prior notice of its introduction published in Government
          Gazette No 27663 of 7 June 2005.]


     Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on Finance of
     the National Assembly, as well as referral to the Joint Tagging
     Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint Rule 160, on
     8 June 2005.


     In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of
     the Bills may be submitted to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)
     within three parliamentary working days.

1. Draft Bills submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159

   (1) Taxation Laws Second Amendment Bill, 2005, submitted by the Minister of Finance on 7 June 2005. Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Finance and the Select Committee on Finance.

2. Translations of Bills submitted

 (1)    The Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs

     (i)     Wysigingswetsontwerp op Deeltitels [W 10 – 2005] (National
          Assembly – sec 75)
     This is the official translation into Afrikaans of the Sectional
     Titles Amendment Bill [B 10 – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 75).

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Correctional Services

   Report of the Judicial Inspectorate of Prisons for 2004-2005.

2. The Minister of Science and Technology

   (a) Statute of the Centre for Science and Technology of the Non- Aligned and Other Developing Countries, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.

 b) Explanatory Memorandum on the Statute of the Centre for Science  and
    Technology of the Non-Aligned and Other Developing Countries.


                        THURSDAY, 9 JUNE 2005

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Council of Provinces

1. Referrals to committees of papers tabled

   The following papers have been tabled and are now referred to the relevant committees as mentioned below:

 (1)    The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on
     Security and Constitutional Affairs for consideration and report:

        (a)  Report on the provisional suspension from office of senior
          magistrate Mr S E Tebe.

        (b)  Report on the provisional suspension from office of
          magistrate Mr L D Monageng.


 (2)    The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on
     Economic and Foreign Affairs:

        (a)  Government Notice No R.1342 published in Government
          Gazette No 26994 dated 12 November 2004: National Gambling
          Regulations in terms of section 87 read with Item 8 of the
          Schedule to the National Gambling Act, 2004 (Act No 7 of
          2004).

        (b)  Government Notice No R.1311 published in Government
          Gazette No 26962 dated 12 November 2004: Standards Matters in
          terms of the Standards Act, 1993 (Act No 29 of 1993).

        (c)  Government Notice No R.1315 published in Government
          Gazette No 26962 dated 12 November 2004: Standards Matters in
          terms of the Standards Act, 1993 (Act No 29 of 1993).

        (d)  Government Notice No R.1397 published in Government
          Gazette No 27038 dated 3 December 2004: Strategic Industrial
          Project (SIP): Notice in terms of section 12G(16) d of the
          Income Tax Act, 1962 (Act No 58 of 1962).

    (e)      Government Notice No R.1398 published in Government
          Gazette No 27038 dated 3 December 2004: Strategic Industrial
          Project (SIP): Notice in terms of section 12G(16) d of the
          Income Tax Act, 1962 (Act No 58 of 1962).

    (f)      Government Notice No R.1399 published in Government
          Gazette No 27038 dated 3 December 2004: Strategic Industrial
          Project (SIP): Notice in terms of section 12G(16) d of the
          Income Tax Act, 1962 (Act No 58 of 1962).

    (g)      Government Notice No R.1441 published in Government
          Gazette No 27097 dated 17 December 2004: Strategic Industrial
          Project (SIP): Notice in terms of section 12G(16) d of the
          Income Tax Act, 1962 (Act No 58 of 1962).

    (h)      Government Notice No R.1442 published in Government
          Gazette No 27097 dated 17 December 2004: Strategic Industrial
          Project (SIP): Notice in terms of section 12G(16) d of the
          Income Tax Act, 1962 (Act No 58 of 1962).

    (i)      Proclamation No R.2 published in Government Gazette No
          27157 dated 14 January 2005: Transfer of the administration
          of the Co-operatives Act, 1981 (Act No 91 0f 1981), from the
          Minister of Agriculture to the Minister of Trade and Industry
          in terms of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa,
          1996 (Act No 108 of 1996).

    (j)      Government Notice No R.133 published in Government Gazette
          No 27269 dated 18 February 2005: National Measuring Standards
          in terms of the Measuring Units and National Measuring
          Standards Act, 1973 (Act No 76 of 1973).

    (k)      Government Notice No R.134 published in Government Gazette
          No 27269 dated 18 February 2005: Regulations relating to the
          payment of levy and the issues of sales permits with regard
          to compulsory specifications: Amendment in terms of the
          Standards Act, 1993 (Act No 29 of 1993).

    (l)      Government Notice No R.140 published in Government Gazette
          No 27269 dated 18 February 2005: Regulations relating to the
          payment of levy and the issues of sales permits with regard
          to compulsory specifications: Amendment in terms of the
          Standards Act, 1993 (Act No 29 of 1993).

    (m)      Government Notice No R.168 published in Government Gazette
          No 27269 dated 4 March 2005 Standards Matters in terms of the
          Standards Act, 1993 (Act No 29 of 1993).

(3) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Finance and to the Select Committee on Local Government and Administration:

 (a)    Government Notice No 365 published in Government Gazette No
       27487 dated 14 April 2005: Framework for Conditional Grants to
       Provinces in terms of Division of Revenue Act, 2005 (Act No 1 of
       2005).


 (b)    Government Notice No 868 published in Government Gazette No
       27636 dated 30 May 2005: Municipal Supply Chain Management
       Regulations in terms of the Local Government: Municipal Finance
       Management Act, 2003 (Act No 56 of 2003).

(4) The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs for consideration:

  Report and Financial Statements of the Commission on Restitution of
  Land Rights for 2004 - 2005 [RP 49-2005].

(5) The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on Local Government and Administration for consideration:

  Strategic Plan of the Department of Provincial and Local Government
  for 2005 to 2010.

(6) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs:

  (a)   Government Notice No 323 published in Government Gazette No
       27434 dated 8 April 2005: Establishment of the Spruit River
       Water User Association, Division of Wellington, Province of the
       Western Cape, Water Management Area Number 19 in terms of the
       National; Water Act, 1998 (Act No 36 of 1998).


  (b)   Government Notice No 324 published in Government Gazette No
       27434 dated 8 April 2005: Establishment of the uPhongolo Dam
       Water User Association, Magisterial Districts of Ingwavuma,
       Ubombo, Ngotshe and Piet Retief, KwaZulu-Natal Province, Water
       Management Area Number 6 in terms of the National Water Act,
       1998 (Act No 36 of 1998)


  (c)   Government Notice No 458 published in Government Gazette No
       27579 dated 20 May 2005: Establishment of the Houdenbeks River
       Water User Association, Division of Ceres, Province of the
       Western Cape, Water Management Area Number 17 in terms of the
       National Water Act, 1998 (Act No 36 of 1998).


  (d)   Government Notice No 482 published in Government Gazette No
       27459 dated 20 May 2005: Proposal for the Establishment of the
       Thukela Catchment Management Agency in terms of section 78(3) of
       the National Water Act, 1998 (Act No 36 of 1998).
   (e)  Government Notice No 483 published in Government Gazette No
       27604 dated 20 May 1998: Proposal for the Establishment of the
       Usutu to Mhlathuze Catchment Management Agency in terms of
       section 78(3) of the National Water Act, 1998 (Act No 36 of
       1998).


  (f)   Government Notice No 484 published in Government Gazette No
       27604 dated 20 May 2005: Establishment of the Mvoti to Mzimkulu
       Catchment Management Agency (Water Management Area Number 11) in
       the Province of KwaZulu-Natal in terms of the National Water
       Act, 1998 (Act No 36 of 1998).