WEDNESDAY, 22 JUNE 2005 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

                                ____

The Council met at 14:03.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

                          NOTICE OF MOTION

Mr M A MZIZI: Chairperson, on behalf of the IFP, I will move at the next sitting of this House that the Council notes with shock that:

(1) a convicted murderer who previously escaped from prison in 1996 and 1997 has once again escaped;

(2) further notes that the prisoner, Casper Kruger, apparently escaped while being transported to a community hospital to receive medical treatment;

(3) urges the relevant department to provide additional security measures and take extra precautions when transporting prisoners who are known to be high flight risks;

(4) calls upon members of the public who might have information about the whereabouts of this escapee to assist the relevant authorities with their efforts to apprehend him.

     CONGRATULATIONS TO SIPHO NGOMANE, COMRADES MARATHON WINNER


                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr B J MKHALIPHI: Chairperson, I hereby wish to move without notice:

That the Council –

(1) notes with a profound sense of pride that the winner of the 2005 Comrades Marathon is Sipho Ngomane from the most beautiful province, Mpumalanga;

(2) further notes that it is appropriate that the 23-year-old Ngomane, who ran his first Comrades Marathon, won this big race on Youth Day, 16 June;

(3) congratulates this young athlete whose time of five hours 27 minutes holds promise for further excellence in years to come; and

(4) wishes him all the best in the sport of long distance running.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                        MOTION OF CONDOLENCE


                     (The late Sifiso Vilakazi)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council –

(1) expresses its sorrow at the news of the untimely death of Mr Sifiso Vilakazi, the son of our hon colleague, Mrs J N Vilakazi, on 16 June this year;

(2) conveys its sincere condolences to the Vilakazi family and their friends; and

(3) wishes that Mrs Vilakazi and her family be filled with strength and fortitude in their time of sadness.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                        MOTION OF CONDOLENCE

                 (The late Queen Makobo Modjadji VI)

Moh H F MATLANYANE: Modulasetulo, ke dira tšhišinyo ntle le tsebišo:

Gore Khansele: –

(1) e lemoge ka manyami gore mabu a utswitšwe Bolobedu ka Kgošigadikgolo Modjadji wa Boselela kliniking ya Polokwane, profenseng ya Limpopo ka Mošupologo wa 13 Juni, morago ga mengwaga ye mabedi a beilwe setulong sa bogoši;

(2) gape e lemoge gore Kgošigadikgolo Makobo Modjadji wa Boselela e be e le yo monyenyane bogošing bja sesadi fela Afrika-borwa le gore go ithobalela ga gagwe a le fela nywaga ye 27 e napa e e ba masetlapelo;

(3) e gopole tema yeo a e kgathilego go netefatšeng seriti sa bogoši bja setšo profenseng ya Limpopo;

(4) e be mmogo le tikologo ya Limpopo ya Mokgatlo wa Dikereke wa Afrika- Borwa, Lekgotlatheramelao la Limpopo le African National Congress ge ba mo llela; (5) e lakaletša ba leloko, batho ba motse wa gaModjadji le maloko a setšhaba sa Balobedu profenseng ya Limpopo ka bophara maatla le go tielela ka nako ye ya dillo.

Mokgapa wo mogolo o wele, dithaga tša lla botsororo! Ke a leboga. (Translation of Sepedi motion of condolence follows.)

[Ms H F MATLANYANE: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes with sadness the passing away of a very important public figure, the “Rain Queen” Makobo Modjadji VI of Bolobedu at a clinic in Polokwane, Limpopo Province, on Monday 13 June 2005;

(2) further notes that Queen Modjadji VI was the youngest of a dynasty of queens found only in South Africa and that her death at the tender age of 27 years is a great sadness;

(3) notes her contribution in the upholding of the dignity of traditional chieftainship in the Limpopo province;

(4) mourns in unison with the Limpopo Regional Council of Churches, the Limpopo Legislature and the ANC; and

(5) wishes the family, the community of gaModjadji and the Balobedu tribe in the Limpopo province, as a whole, to be strong during the time of mourning!

The spear has fallen! I thank you.]

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

             INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS FRAMEWORK BILL





            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, hon members, this House today has an opportunity to debate and pass a Bill that the Constitution makes a mandatory requirement. In addition President Thabo Mbeki, in his most recent state of the nation address, committed the government to the promulgation of the Intergovernmental Relations Framework Bill this year. The Intergovernmental Relations Framework Bill is a strategic task in the government’s programme of action.

This Bill is a product of an extensive consultation process involving all three spheres of government. During this process various institutional options for improving intergovernmental co-ordination were raised, discussed and sifted. Two government-wide workshops were held that were chaired by the President, attended by all national Ministers, Deputy Ministers, Premiers, MECs of local government and directors-general.

Numerous meetings were held with the Governance Administration Cabinet Committee, local government MinMecs, FOSAD and Salga. Several Premiers have even begun to outline the steps they will have to take to implement the legislation.

The product is unanimity between the three spheres on measures required to facilitate coherent government and co-ordinate the implementation of policy, legislation and government’s programme of action to ensure effective delivery of services, alleviation of poverty and the development of our people and our country. There is therefore broad consensus and overwhelming support for this legislation within government.

The apartheid state was a ruthless but sophisticated instrument for subjugating the majority of South Africans to perpetual conditions of political and economic exclusion, injustice and an inhuman servitude whilst deliberately entrenching selective privilege for the white minority.

The Minister of Finance in his Budget Speech in 2002 echoed this view that, despite considerable progress since 1994, too many South Africans are still trapped in poverty, inadequate shelter, uncertain incomes and the despair of joblessness. Redressing poverty, underdevelopment and marginalisation is a national task that calls for the mobilisation of all spheres of government to work in unison to deliver services to the poor communities.

In less than 10 years a complex system of intergovernmental relations has taken root. Key areas of focus during this period were the establishment of national and provincial structures in 1994, and the comprehensive, phased transformation of local government, which culminated in the establishment of local government structures in 2000.

The Constitution establishes the government of the Republic of South Africa as constituted at national, provincial and local spheres of government, which are distinctive, interdependent and interrelated. South Africa is a single, indivisible state with decentralised characteristics; government consists of national government, nine provinces and 284 municipalities. The three spheres are interrelated and interdependent and are part of one government for the country and enjoined to co-operate with each other to provide coherent government.

Distinctiveness does not mean that the spheres are constitutionally equal in status or enjoy the same powers; in all cases the national government has greater power than the other spheres. Our constitutional system is designed in such a manner that the functional and institutional integrity of the different spheres of government must be determined with due regard to their place in the constitutional order, their powers and functions under the Constitution and countervailing powers of other spheres of government.

Provinces and municipalities exercise their distinctive powers within the regulatory oversight frameworks set by national government, which retains the responsibility for monitoring compliance with those frameworks and, if need be, intervening when constitutional or statutory obligations are not fulfilled.

Provinces and municipalities enjoy relative autonomy, remaining accountable to their legislatures to reflect their policy preferences. However, all spheres must exercise their powers to the common good of the country as a whole, collectively and in co-operation with one another so that they can provide coherent government that meets the needs of the country as a whole.

Although intergovernmental relations are primarily an executive function, for purposes of this Bill Parliament and provincial legislatures have an equally important intergovernmental role to play in their own right. They are responsible for the formal adoption of laws that confer powers on the executive and administration, and thus for overseeing their implementation.

In this sense, legislatures play a critical role in promoting intergovernmental co-operation. The expanded role of legislative committees in overseeing the performance of administration provides considerable scope for voluntary co-operation between legislative committees, with many potential benefits for improving the quality of governance and oversight.

As I said in my address to the National Assembly, the Intergovernmental Relations Framework Bill is nothing less than an opportunity for all of us to work as one government to create a better life for all our people. It thus has a key place within our national effort to place our people, their wellbeing and prosperity at the centre of public life and state action.

The Intergovernmental Relations Framework Bill gives effect to section 41(2)(a) and (b) of the Constitution. It aims to establish an institutional framework for the national government, the provincial and local governments to promote and facilitate intergovernmental relations. It confirms the central importance of effective and predictable intergovernmental institutions to the co-ordination of our combined effort to redress poverty and the underdevelopment of our people.

Its central premise is that this challenge is best addressed, and indeed can only be addressed, through a concerted effort by government in all spheres working together, and each playing their part in the delivery of services. Its objective is thus to provide, within the concept of co- operative government as set out in Chapter 3 of the Constitution, an institutional framework for national, provincial and local government and all organs of state within those governments to facilitate coherent government; co-ordination in the implementation of policy and legislation; the effective provision of services; monitoring the implementation of policy and legislation and general realisation of national priorities.

Securing the best possible fit between the distinctive action and conduct of all three spheres of government within delivery of national priorities is key to executing the business of government.

Within this system local government has a unique place and role. Not only is this sphere the newest of the three spheres charged with delivery of basic services such as water, sanitation and electricity, but local government is the one space shared by all spheres of government. For this reason, the Bill provides greater certainty about the way that local circumstances should fit into the plans, programmes and priorities of the other two spheres, than is currently the case.

The Intergovernmental Relations Framework Bill further provides for mechanisms for settling intergovernmental disputes. These mechanisms outlined in the Bill do not preclude court action, but rather locate court action within its proper place as envisaged by the Constitution itself. Although the primary role of the Bill concerns the routine transaction and execution of government business, the Constitution foresees that from time to time intergovernmental disputes may arise, and for this reason it requires this Act of Parliament.

These mechanisms are premised on the constitutional provision in section 41(3)(4), that firstly, spheres must avoid legal proceedings against each other; secondly, organs of state must use every reasonable effort to resolve the dispute before resorting to court action; and thirdly, where a court is not satisfied that disputants have complied with these procedures contained in the IGR Bill, it may then refer the matter back to the parties in dispute.

The obligation to settle intergovernmental disputes is one aspect of co- operative government, whose success will depend upon the seriousness with which each party is committed to the political resolution of disputes and the preparedness to strike compromises.

Achieving these objectives will demand decision and leadership, which will forge stronger forms of collaboration and partnership between the spheres when needed, boost performance and accountability across the board, entrench a service ethos in all areas of public service, constitute core capabilities within the state and find simpler, faster and more effective way to get things done. Lastly, as I said in the National Assembly, the adoption of the Bill by both Houses of Parliament marks an important milestone in the history of intergovernmental relations in South Africa. More importantly, it confirms and reinforces government’s resolve to provide coherent government for the country as a whole and its determination to address the challenges of poverty, marginalisation and underdevelopment through concerted and integrated state action.

I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate the select committee and all its members for the processing and adoption of this legislation. I thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, Deputy Minister. I now call upon the hon S Shiceka, chairperson of the Select Committee on Local Government and Administration. Just before you talk, chairperson, the little clock there is broken, so when I switch the microphone off here and say that your time has expired, please respect the Chair. [Laughter.]

Mr S SHICEKA: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Well, I have been given a warning but I can promise you that there won’t be any need for you to make that ruling.

Chairperson, Deputy Minister, officials led by the director-general, members of this august House, today I stand here to present the Intergovernmental Relations Framework Bill as a milestone in completing the last leg of what is outlined in Chapter three of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa on corporative governance.

As the Minister said, the President in his state of the nation address to Parliament this year identified the adoption of this Bill as one of the strategic tasks for government this year. The NCOP is poised and ready to consider this Bill in the realisation of the President’s command.

The intergovernmental framework Bill provides an opportunity for all levels of government to work as one government to create a better life for all our people. It has a key place within our national efforts to drive our transformation effort along with the vision of the Freedom Charter to place our people, their wellbeing and prosperity at the centre of public life. It has the potential to optimise all limited resources as a country to ensure that the quality of life of our people is improved.

The Bill provides for an institutional framework for the national, provincial and local government and all organs of the state. This Bill is focused to ensure that co-ordination and coherence through which the implementation of policy and legislation across all levels of government can take place.

The programmes for economic growth, reconstruction and development are implemented through the institutions of our three spheres of government. Within this system national government is primarily responsible for establishing the policy and legislative framework that ensures national uniformity and social equity. Provinces and municipalities are in turn primarily responsible for implementation and service delivery. For this reason a major portion of the budget and expenditure efforts resides with these two spheres of government.

A collective effort is thus part of our overall continual design and it is essential if we are to achieve our goal of providing a seamless web of services to poor communities throughout our country.

The Bill is based on 10 years of practising intergovernmental relations in this country. This Bill will improve government’s overall capacity to implement its policies and assist the government as it strives to provide a better life for all.

Even the greatest cynic must acknowledge that we have made great strides in forging a system of government that combined the required collective, intergovernmental effort that is essential to improving government’s performance.

In many cases we have even begun to find solutions to the complex problems that will inevitably arise in this complex field of practice in which more established democracies than ours are still struggling to even start dealing with these questions. It is important that we ask ourselves whether we have fully developed our capacity, set and executed key developmental priorities collectively within the three spheres of government whilst maintaining the lines of decision-making and accountability.

Are we managing service delivery and implementation in ways that make the greatest impact on poverty and underdevelopment regardless of jurisdictional boundaries and uneven capacity and quality? If we can answer these questions affirmatively, it will be because the operation and the system are working. These relations will translate into collective actions that are required to secure integrated results. No school will be built without there being concrete plans to provide that school with clean drinking water, adequate sanitation and an electricity supply as such. We must be able to build sustainable communities.

I want to conclude by saying that I think this House, under your leadership, must ensure that the tagging of Bills is addressed. We must avoid the situation where the executive try to come with shortcuts to ensure that Bills are passed by tagging Bills as section 75 Bills. This Bill clearly is a section 76 Bill. Nobody can argue that in this country when you are trying to build intergovernmental relations the Bills can be tagged as section 75.

We must also encourage the participation of Salga in these debates. They were part of our deliberations and discussions in the committee, however, in this House they are not around. I think all of us must ensure that Salga takes its rightful place and is able to contribute. Thank you.

Mr J W LE ROUX: Chairperson, Deputy Minister and colleagues, section 41(2) of the Constitution requires an Act of Parliament to firstly facilitate intergovernmental relations, and secondly to facilitate the settlement of intergovernmental disputes.

The Bill establishes an enabling framework to facilitate the development of more efficient intergovernmental relations. The Bill specifically makes provisions for the establishing of, firstly, the President’s co-ordinating council; secondly, the national intergovernmental forums; thirdly, provincial intergovernmental forums; and fourthly, municipal intergovernmental forums to cater for local government.

The lack of service delivery and lack of effective co-ordination of functions are major concerns and having the structures to debate and solve these problems is essential and a step in the right direction. Structures alone will not solve our problems of service delivery. We need dedicated South Africans to put service before self-enrichment.

The Bill further provides guidelines for the resolving of disputes and will in most cases avoid costly litigation. The House will be glad to hear that the DA supports the Bill. Thank you.

Mr K SINCLAIR: Hon Chairperson and hon Deputy Minister, if there was ever a Bill that was overdue it was the Intergovernmental Relations Framework Bill. I understand that this Bill has to do with service delivery, reducing poverty, and also with the development of our people.

The time has come that a more consolidated approach must be put in place to make sure that the three spheres of government deliver to the expectations of our people and, if that is achieved by this Bill, the NNP believes that we are on the right track.

Up till now part of the problem that we experienced in terms of delivery is that on many occasions local government is very autonomous and very independent, but when there are real problems they are not so autonomous and independent as they are supposed to be and they very quickly run to their appropriate MEC or the Minister’s office. But the previous speakers were so right when they spoke about the tagging mechanism for this specific Bill, and maybe the time has come that the NCOP must also show its teeth in terms of this whole process. I agree with the notion that if there was ever a Bill that was supposed to be a section 76, it is this one.

In conclusion, it is very appropriate that we pass this Bill whilst some of the political parties here are on their way to celebrate the 50th anniversary of what the people at Kliptown said, on the 26th and the 27th of June. The NNP supports this Bill. I thank you.

Mr M A MZIZI: Chairperson, Deputy Minister and colleagues, at a glance one could conclude that the Bill before us seeks to provide, within the concept of co-operative government as set out in Chapter 3 of the Constitution, an institutional framework for the national government, the provincial and local government, as well as all organs of state within those governments, to facilitate coherent government.

Isisho sesiZulu sithi: Imihlathi eyazanayo mayihlangane. Uma lo Mthethosivivinywa ungaba yimpumelelo . . . [The isiZulu saying goes: Those who are of the same mind should come together. For this Bill to be effective . . .]

. . . the chain linking the three tiers of government will work magnificently.

Ukwethekelana ngolwazi yindlela eya empumelelweni. [The sharing of ideas is the way towards success.]

Chapter 4 of this Bill deals with disputes. It states categorically that it does not apply to the settlement of a specific intergovernmental dispute in respect of which other pieces of national legislation provide resolution mechanisms, or to disputes concerning intervention in terms of section 100 or section 139 of the Constitution.

In order to avoid a possible dispute, the IFP recommends that government devolves power evenly among the tiers of government so as to create competition and stability among them.

Basotho ba re “Mphemphe e a lapisa, motho o kgonwa ke sa hae.” [It is better to have your own, rather than depending on others.]

Mhlawumbe lokhu kukhwabaniswa kwezimali komasipala kungancipha. Ngakho-ke masiwunike ithuba lo Mthethosivivinywa ukuze sibone izithelo zawo. [Maybe this fraud at municipal level would cease. Let us therefore give this Bill a chance to bear fruit.]

It is a pity that this Bill is a section 75 Bill. I am of the view that it would have served well if it was a section 76 Bill. I am saying this because it makes mention of provincial and local governments. Surely, these governments have an interest in this Bill.

Nakho-ke. Sihlalo, ngiyabanxusela maqondana nokuthi ukuba kade belitholile ithuba bebeyoba nakho ukusixhasa, baveze nabo uvo lwabo. Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.] [That’s it. Chairperson, I plead for them - if they were here and had been given an opportunity, they would have supported us and given their views. Thank you. [Applause.]]

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, again my chairperson mandated me to address this House on issues affecting our communities. What makes this country different from other countries is simply that we listen to the concerns or suggestions raised by our people.

Colleagues, you all know that champions are not made in a gym; they are made from something they have deep inside, a desire, a dream and a vision. They have to have the skill, the will and the courage, but as you are aware, colleagues, the will must be stronger than the skill. This is what this ANC government is made of. You can now use your gadgets because I’m now tuning into Thobela FM.

Modulasetulo, bašomi ka nna ba šetše ba lekile go hlaloša gore Molaokakanywa wo o bolela ka eng. Ka gona, nka se ke ka senya hlegere ka go bušeletša seo ba se boletšego.

Potšišo ye e lego ntshe ke gore a e ka ba go na le yo a kilego a bona tšhomišano ye e lego gona matsatsing ano mo mmušong? Peleng o be o ka se e bone gobane batho ba be ba no fiwa seo ba se fiwago ntle le ditšhišinyo tša bona. Molaokakanywa wo o lokiša gore go be le tšhomišano magareng a mebušo ye meraro – e lego wa gare, wa diprofensi le wa selegae.

Potšišo ye nngwe gape ke gore ke eng seo se hlolago gore go se be le tšhomišano matšatšing ano? Ge motho a lebelela, go na le mebušo ye mengwe ya selegae yeo e naganago gore e sa swere boipušo bjola bja dinagamagae tša maloba tša bosegatamarokgwana. Gape go bile go na le dikgogakgogano magareng a mebušo ya selegae le mebušo ya diprofensi. Ge o ka lebelela, Modulasetulo wa komiti ye wa go tšeya gabotse, mohlomphegi Sicelo SHICEKA, o šetše a etile komiti ye, go ya diprofensing a leka go tima mello ka gobane go na le dikgogakgogano magareng a dipušoselegae le batho kua fase gammogo le mmušo wa diprofensi.

Go leka go thibela seo, Molaokakanywa wo o šišinya gore go be le yo a bitšwago gore ke “facilitator” - ga ke tseba gore ka leleme la gabo mmamosadinyana kgošigadi re tla re ke selo mang, feela ga se lona lekhwi - gore a leke gore ge go hwetšagala gore go na le dikgogakgogano, a tsenelele gore ngangego ye e ka bago gona e se ke ya ba gona ka gore ge e le gona e tla šitiša kabo ya ditirelo kua ditšhabeng. Ke go ba le kgang ge go le bjalo! [Disego.]

Gape ge o ka lebelela, tse dingwe tsa diMECs, elego balekgotlaphethišo kua diprofensing, go swana le kua Kapa-Botlhabela, di ile tša biletšwa kgorong ya tsheko ke bommasepala, ba gana fela gore ba laolege gore ditirelo di kgone go ya kua ditšhabeng. Bjale, ka Molaokakanywa wo,tšeo ka moka re a di fokotša gore go be le tšhomišano.

Go ya pele, Molaokakanywa wo o hloma diforamo go tloga go ya pele ya Presidente, gwa latela ya bobedi ya Premier, gwa latela ya boraro ya district. Diforamo tšeo ke tša go bona gore go ba le kgokagano ya go aba ditirelo kua ditšhabeng. Go tla nyakega gore ge diforamo tšeo di kwane ka dipoledišano, di tšeye pego yeo gomme e romelwe go Presidente gore a lebelele ge e ba dilo ka moka di sepela gabotse. Ge ba dirile seo, go nyakega gore pego e tle mo Ntlongkgolo ya go tšeya botse ya go emela diprofensi ka moka mo nageng ya rena. Anke bjale ke leke go itoma leleme. (Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows)

[Chairperson, my colleagues have already explained what this Bill entails. I will not therefore spoil everything by repeating what they have already said.

The question is whether there is anyone who has ever seen the kind of co- operation that exists in government these days. Back then you would never see it because people were just given whatever it was they were given without consultation. This Bill rectifies things so that there is co- operation among the spheres of government - the national, provincial and local government.

The other question is, what it is that causes lack of co-operation these days? If you look at it, some of the local governments think we are still using the old, rural and inexperienced system of government. There is also chaos among the local and provincial governments. If you look at it, the wise Chairperson of this Committee, hon Sicelo Shiceka, has already led this Committee to provinces to try to introduce a ceasefire because there is chaos between local governments and people on the ground as well as the provincial government.

In an effort to stop this, this Bill proposes that there be someone referred to as the “facilitator” - I do not know what this would be in the Queen’s language but it is not this one – so that he/she can catalyse the situation if there is chaos so that it does not affect service delivery to the public. That would be stubbornness! [Laughter.]

If you look at it again, some of the MECs were taken to court by the municipality, for example in the Eastern Cape province, just to call them to order so that services could be delivered to the public. Now, with this Bill we reduce all that so that there is co-operation.

To proceed, this Bill establishes forums from the Presidential Forum followed by the Premier’s Forum; the third would be the District Forum. These forums are meant to bring unity in delivering service to the public. It is important that the forums agree in their discussions; take the report to the President to ensure that everything goes smooth. When that is done, the report must be brought to the House that represents all our provinces. Let me now try to use English.]

There were issues or concerns that were raised by this committee. We agreed with the department, after we had directed them that they were going to look at those issues and come back to this Parliament, especially to this committee, so that we see that we improve on some of the clauses that were proposed here.

As a dynamic, wonderful and calculating committee, we didn’t want to effect some amendments just to delay the process, but we said that the route would be to direct the department to look into some of those issues that were raised by the committee. They will come back to this House again to report on them. The department has given us an assurance that they will do exactly that.

Hon members, if you can’t thank us as a committee for what we have done, you will have missed a great opportunity to do so. I know for a fact that you will all agree with me when I say: If you can imagine it, you can achieve it. If you can dream it, you can become it. Let’s bear in mind that a misty morning does not signify a cloudy day. The Bill, colleagues, is before you. Let’s pass it. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr D A WORTH: Chairperson, Deputy Minister and hon members, the aim of this Bill is a cause to establish a framework for the national, provincial and local governments to promote and facilitate intergovernmental relations.

The co-operative process between the three spheres of government - national, provincial and local governments - has been largely informal. The Department of Provincial and Local Government expressed concerns, which resulted in discretionary and ineffective relations between the three spheres, which hampered service provision.

The implementation and spending of the full budget are lacking in many departments and specially shared responsibilities between spheres of government, such as housing, have suffered as a result. With the increasing pressure to accelerate service delivery, the largely informal process by which the intergovernmental relations have up to now been conducted, is no longer regarded as sufficient for national priorities.

The provision of social services involves all spheres of government. For instance, in areas such as health, social grants and welfare both the national and provincial governments share social services functions. National government’s roles are policy regulation, co-ordination, oversight and support while provinces plan, budget and spend.

The national and local government also share basic service functions that are cost-recoverable such as water, sanitation and electricity with the similar division of roles for national government and provinces.

The Bill creates a number of institutions designed to facilitate co- operation and establish the standard of conduct and protocol for implementation. The Bill also sets out a framework to deal with intergovernmental disputes relating to the provisions of section 41 through the Constitution which requires organs of the state to settle disputes amongst themselves before resorting to the courts and expensive litigation.

In the light of recent court cases, the government is unable to deliver in certain sections, such as social welfare, to meet minimum standards of service delivery. The urgent need for this dispute mechanism remains indisputable.

Most of the forums mentioned in the Bill already exist, and must be fully utilised so that the people on the ground can finally enjoy the service delivery that has been denied them for so long.

With this in mind, the DA hopes that this Bill will strengthen delivery and give effect to the constitutional principle of co-operative governance without impinging on local government autonomy. The DA therefore supports this Bill. Thank you.

Mr D MASEMOLA (Salga): Hon Deputy Minister, hon Chairperson of the House and hon members. Let me start by assuring this House of our commitment to the processes of the NCOP.

The three spheres of government and organs of states in each sphere are constitutionally bound by the basic principles of co-operative government. The primary objective of co-operative government is not co-operation for its own sake, but rather to provide effective and efficient government.

The practice of co-operative government is thus the marshalling of distinctive effort, capacity leadership and resources of each sphere and directing it as effectively as possible towards the development and service delivery objectives of our government as a whole. And therefore the intergovernmental relations and co-operative government in particular have this developmental character. Salga in principle welcomes the initiatives taken by the Department of Provincial and Local Government, as required by the Constitution, to introduce the legislation that formally establishes intergovernmental structures at all levels of government.

In addition, it provides the appropriate mechanisms and procedures to facilitate the settlement of intergovernmental disputes. And indeed, of course, it will enhance collective working and provisioning between and among our municipalities.

Intergovernmental relations have been conceptualised as processes through which political priorities across the nation are harmonised to flow in the same developmental direction. The practice of intergovernmental relations incorporates political leadership aligning and directing spheres of government towards the same political priorities.

Historically, intergovernmental relations have been largely unregulated and were informal in nature. However, the practice has evolved pragmatically as government across the sphere sought to give effect to the founding principles of co-operative government. As the key side of service delivery and development, the point of delivery where all spheres of government converge, local government must as a matter of course play its rightful role in intergovernmental relations. Without local government’s full participation, the vital contribution of locally articulated preferences will be sorely missed.

The Bill in its current form makes provisions for such participation by local government in national and provincial intergovernmental processes, thus formalising the current ad hoc arrangements. Salga, therefore, is strongly looking at the view that this Bill, when enacted, will go a long way in facilitating and ensuring coherent government and co-ordinated processes of implementing our policies, programmes and legislation - and most importantly, effective service delivery, which, indeed, is a priority at local government level.

The IGR Framework Bill has since its introduction in 2003 gone through a lengthy, inclusive, consultative process in which Salga, as a stakeholder and a voice of local government, has been involved in the development of this Bill since its introduction. It is largely during these consultative processes that we as Salga were given a platform to comment and make meaningful contributions as we did.

The department is quite aware of whatever interactions and engagements we had which resulted in parliamentary processes. With these few words we would like to formally commend the department for having given us the opportunity to participate in the processes leading to the promulgation of the draft Bill.

Furthermore, I extend our words of gratitude to both the portfolio committee and select committee of local government for granting us this opportunity to once again make an input to this House. We therefore unconditionally support this Bill. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr A L MOSEKI: Chairperson, Deputy Minister, departmental officials, colleagues, Salga representatives, and all of us, citizens of South Africa.

Chapter 3 of the Constitution lays the foundation for a co-operative governance system in this country. I think that it is important to note that one of the principles entailed in that chapter says that in the Republic, government is constituted by the national, provincial and local spheres of government. These spheres of government are distinctive; the Deputy Minister has raised that. They are interdependent, but most importantly the spheres of government are interrelated.

I think that, in the context of this constitutional provision, it should be understood that there is no sphere of governance in this country that can operate alone from other spheres of government. There is no sphere of governance in this country that can achieve effective and efficient governance without the support of other spheres of governance.

It is also very important to understand that in 1955 the founding fathers of this movement that is ruling this country crafted the Freedom Charter. Also, I raised an important principle of a unitary state; I think that is a very important principle. It also sends a very clear message to us that even if we have resorted to these three spheres of governance, once again, there is no sphere of this government that can achieve anything without the support of the others.

I think it is important for us also to realise that this developing democracy is faced by serious challenges. One of the critical challenges that are confronting this developing democracy is the capacity at all spheres, particularly at the provincial and local level. Recently, in the review of governmental programmes, it emerged that in other provinces moneys allocated for service delivery have not been used for that.

When a question is asked as to why that is happening, an answer of capacity becomes a response to that. Recently we have seen the developments in our country, challenges that are confronting this government and the protests of communities in different areas in our country. When the question is asked as to why all this is happening, the question of capacity again becomes an answer to that.

Taking all these challenges into account, it is unavoidable for all spheres of governance, for this House, to agree with the department, with the Minister to pass this Bill to ensure that the challenges that are facing us as a developing democracy are tackled not by one sphere, but by all spheres of government in order to deliver quality services to the people of this country. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, hon members, it makes one feel very good, as a Deputy Minister, when there is great consensus like this in the House around a Bill which is not controversial at all. It gives me great pleasure and I am sure that the Department is also quite happy about it.

I am not going to respond to each and every member’s input, but I am going to simply summarise some of the inputs that have been given here. Hon member Moseki, I think, actually hit the nail on the head when he identified fundamental obstacles in terms of implementing government policies. He mentioned - the first one - capacity at various levels of government, which is true.

Recently this country has seen many protests - and not that one is saying those protests were unnecessary. Some of them were necessary because of the frustrations of ordinary people on the ground. It doesn’t help for any government, whether at national or provincial level, to pump more and more money into a local area without there being capacity to spend that amount of money. It is completely useless to pump in more money.

You must then say you are pouring in financial resources but also with capacity, which is what the Department of Provincial and Local Government is looking at, at this very moment. It is, in fact, taking those financial resources and also human resources to go and beef up the capacity in those local areas.

I think Mr Moseki is actually very correct. I am not going to respond to everyone, but Mr Mzizi was correct when he said let’s give this Bill a chance, let’s give it a chance and see how it operates. I think in terms of the Constitution we are required to pass this Bill. I think that is all I have to say and I want to thank every member who participated in the debate, and say thank you very much to all of you. Thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

CONSIDERATION OF RE-DETERMINATION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF CROSS-BOUNDARY
                         MUNICIPALITIES BILL

Mr S SHICEKA: Chairperson, and all protocol observed, we are happy that Salga has recommitted itself to the process and programmes of intergovernmental relations. Their contribution is valuable and we will always appreciate it. We are presenting a Bill here, which is aimed at redetermining cross-boundary municipalities.

When the Demarcation Board came into operation it determined boundaries, which in some areas were not in line with the Deeds Office in terms of the Cross-Boundary Municipalities Act. You find that these boundaries marginalised, sidelined and divided communities. Now what we are doing today is trying to correct those wrongs. We are giving the power to the Municipal Demarcation Board to start to ensure that the boundaries, in terms of their determination, are in line with what is there in Tshwane - the former Pretoria - in the Deeds Office.

The intention of this will be to ensure that the confusion that has been created in our communities is addressed. Also, this will ensure that the delivery of services in those areas is speeded up. This will ensure that our people are united in those areas; that is the intention of this Bill.

We are also looking at a situation where it will lay the foundations for the proper preparations of local government elections because those communities will be in line, will be intact and will be in place. This will also empower our communities to interact and engage with government as a united people in those areas.

This will also give integrity to our system of government to ensure that we speak with one voice and also that the organs of the state are at one in their approach to our communities. This is aimed at ensuring that our communities are strengthened and that the service delivery that will happen, will be able to deal with the poverty and suffering of our people.

This Bill is one that will open possibilities for a better life for all our people. I want to conclude by also coming back to the same issue: that this Bill is dealing with the “excise ukusikwa nokuklaqwa kwezindamo nokuhlanganiswa kwazo . . .” [. . . the demarcation and integration of places] between municipalities and within municipalities in the cross- border municipalities. However, this Bill is tagged as a section 75 Bill, which deals with communities at the lowest level of our society; but we tag it a section 75 Bill.

I am saying this matter is a matter that needs to be attended to with the speed it deserves. We must make sure that short cuts are not allowed to be taken, because our communities are deprived of the process of engagement at the lowest level.

Now, we have agreed with the department that when the bigger thing comes, the bigger thing then is doing away with the cross-boundary municipalities in this country. We are saying that when that bigger thing comes, enough time has to be given in this committee because this committee wants to go down to our people and engage them. There must be no situation where letters are written to say now speed up the process because in this Bill we were given only one day to consider the Bill and pass it.

That situation is unacceptable. You will agree with me. I think we must avoid it at all cost so that this government is a government of the people, particularly this House. This House is here to look at the interests, as all of us know, of provincial governments, provinces, as much as municipalities. Therefore you can’t afford a situation where you don’t give enough time to this House to implement its mandate as it is articulated properly and adequately in the Constitution. Thank you very much, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill agreed to in terms of section 75 of the Constitution.

                         CO-OPERATIVES BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Chairperson of the NCOP, hon members, in April this year the Minister of Trade and Industry in his budget speech addressed this House on key areas of intervention that the government is focusing on. He outlined these interventions as “increasing the rate of investment, improving levels of competitiveness and broadening economic participation”.

The Minister went on to say that the development of co-operatives has become a critical priority of the government’s strategy to grow the economy, promote broad participation and substantially increase sustainable livelihoods.

The Co-operatives Bill tabled before the House today forms part of government’s response to one of the most significant challenges facing our country. That challenge is economic inclusiveness and the challenge of broadening economic participation. We believe that co-operatives represent an ideal mechanism to draw larger numbers of people into the economy, particularly those who are located in what we term the second economy.

Our history of exclusion has meant that as a country we have not been able to achieve our full potential and we recognise that without greater economic participation by more people, we cannot hope to achieve the level of economic growth that is required to overcome the unacceptable levels of poverty and unemployment that we experience.

The hon members will remember that in June 2003 the government, through the Growth and Development Summit, made commitments with all key social partners to support co-operatives in this country.

My department, the Department of Trade and Industry, was mandated by government to take leadership of the Co-operatives Development Programme and implement the agreed Growth and Development Summit commitments. Amongst other things we were supposed to go and draft and come up with a co- operatives policy; to draft and pass legislation and come up with a co- operatives strategy; establish a fully fledged co-operatives business unit within the Department of Trade and Industry; conduct a study tour for all constituencies to go and study co-operatives in other countries, as well as to fund a national conference on co-operatives.

All these commitments were properly implemented and I must say that the Bill we are presenting before you today is a culmination of some of those processes. Therefore the need for new legislation in respect of co- operatives has long been apparent and government, through the Nedlac process, has consulted as widely as possible in putting together the legislative framework embodied in this Bill.

With this framework the Department of Trade and Industry as a lead department hopes to redress some of the challenges facing the South African economy by ensuring that there is an increase in the number and the variety of viable and sustainable economic enterprises. The centrality of this government’s economic policy focuses on the promotion and development of emerging or developing economic co-operative enterprises. It looks at all sectors of the economy aimed at diversifying the ownership, the size, and the geographic location of these enterprises throughout the country. Here we are talking about enterprises including small, medium, micro and survivalist co-operative enterprises.

The Bill further outlines the government’s approach to defining the co- operative enterprises, as well as the policy instruments that will be utilised to achieve the objectives in partnership with all state organs.

We view this piece of legislation as one that is developmental rather than administrative in nature and we will ensure accessibility and simplicity in the registration. We have decentralised the process of registration to the provinces with the provincial deputy registrars who will be appointed.

The Bill will allow a co-operative government’s implementation approach by all state organs and it informs the design and implementation of such support programmes by government across all spheres and through all its agencies and the private sector.

Phakathi kwezinye izinto, lo Mthetho uyilwayo uza kunceda kwezi zinto zilandelayo: Okokuqala, ukuphuhlisa ookopolotyeni abazimeleyo nabahambisana nemithetho yookopolotyeni ukuze kwande inani neentlobo zamashishini asebenza kuqoqosho lweli lizwe.

Okwesibini, ukukhuthaza abantu namaqela ahambisana nokuzimela, ukuzinceda nalawo akhetha ukusebenzisana kumashishini asebenza ngemvumelwano ukuba abhalise ookopolotyeni bawo ngokwalo Mthetho uyilwayo.

Okwesithathu, ukukhuthaza ukulingana nokuthatha inxaxheba kwabamnyama, ngakumbi abo basemaphandleni, oomama, ulutsha, abantu abakhubazekileyo, ekwakhiweni kwakunye nasekulawulweni kookopolotyeni. Okwesine, ukwenza lula ukunika inkxaso kookopolotyeni abasakhasayo, ngakumbi abo baphethwe ngamakhosikazi, abo basemaphandleni, abo baphethwe lulutsha kwakunye nabababantu abakhubazekileyo, nabo bakhuthaza ulingano nokuthabatha inxaxheba kwamalungu abo; okwesihlanu, lo Mthetho uyilwayo uza kunceda ukuqinisekisa ukusekwa nokusetyenziswa kwenkxaso yookopolotyeni kuzo zonke izigaba zikarhulumente, ukusukela kurhulumente omkhulu, urhulumente wamaphondo ukuya kutsho koorhulumente basekhaya, kuqukwa neearhente zabo.

Ngenxa yobuninzi beentlobo zookopolotyeni, le nkqubo ikhuthaza intsebenziswano kuwo onke amasebe karhulumente achaphazelekayo. Imizekelo yookopolotyeni: Ngabokwakha izindlu, ngabezezimali, ngababasebenzi, ngabezolimo, abemigalelo nabeenkonzo zoluntu.

Lo Mthetho uyilwayo ke unika iSebe lezoRhweno noShishino, i-DTI, amandla okukhokela ngendlela eyiyo nokunika ingxelo kuwo onke amasebe, amacandelo nezigaba zikarhulumente isebenzisa ikomiti yamasebe ngamasebe karhulumente, komiti leyo equka onke amasebe achaphazelekayo kurhulumente omkhulu kwakunye nebhodi yokucebisa eza kucebisa uMphathiswa wezoRhwebo noShishino, esiyibiza ngokuba yiBhodi eCebisa ngooKopolotyeni, eza kusekwa ngokwalo Mthetho siwuqulunqayo.

Ke ndinike umyalelo kuzo zonke iiarhente zeSebe lezoRhwebo noShishino wokuba zibe neenkqubo ezijongene nqgo nookopolotyeni ababonelela ngoncedo lwezezimali nabo bangengabo bezimali, abafana nabezoqeqesho.

Emva kwalo myalelo iSebe lezoRhwebo noShishino sele liqoshelisa ukuqulunqa iinkqubo zokuxhasa ookopolotyeni eziquka iinkqubo zezoqeqesho ezivunywe zii- Seta kunye neenkqubo zezimali.

Le nkxaso ke iza kunceda ookopolotyeni ukuba balondoloze iimali zabo, babe nezinto zabo soshishino ze banyuse nengxowa-mali yokuqala ushishino. Kuza kuba lula kuba yonke le nto baza kuyenza ngokubambisana endaweni yokuba umntu afune ukwenza into eyedwa.

Kwakhona, iCandelo elijongene noPhuhliso looKopolotyeni, i-Co-operatives Development Business Unit, elikwiSebe lezoRhwebo noShishino lisebenza kakhulu ngokuzimisela ukumisela yonke inkxaso yokuncedisa ookopolotyeni.

Iqhinga elithetha ngazo zonke eezi nkqubo zikarhulumente zokuphuhlisa ookopolotyeni liza kudandalaziswa apha ePalamente kungekudala. Thina ke njengabantu bale Ndlu, okwethu kukuba siphume siye kwiindawo esihlala kuzo siwusasaze lo Mthetho usayilwayo, siyisasaze le nkqubo, kuba, njengoko benditshilo apha, abona bantu esifuna ukuba babe bayaxhamla kulo Mthetho usayilwayo wookopolotyeni - kwiqhinga lokuphuhlisa ookopolotyeni - ngabantu basemakhaya abangathathi ntweni, abasezitokfeleni, oomasingcwabane, oomama, ulutsha. Ngaphandle kokuba siphume thina sipapashe lo Mthetho uyilwayo, abantu abazi kukwazi ukuba kukho iinzame ezifana neezi ezenziwa ngurhulumente wabo. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[Among other things this Bill will assist in the following manner: firstly, to develop co-operatives that are self-reliant and that abide by the rules in order for the number of enterprises to be economically viable and sustainable.

Secondly, it is to support people and associations that want to go on their own and those that choose to enter joint ventures to register their co- operatives according to this Bill. Thirdly, it is to encourage equality and participation by black people, especially those who live in rural areas, women, youth and the disabled, in the development and administration of the co-operatives.

Fourthly, it is to make access to financial and institutional support easy for emerging co-operatives, especially those that are managed by women, people from rural areas, the youth and the disabled; and those that encourage equity and equality among their members.

Fifthly, this Bill will assist in ensuring the design and access to the technical capacity building support programmes for co-operatives in all government spheres, from national, provincial and local governments, including their agencies respectively.

Due to the extensive number of co-operatives, this programme encourages co- operation between all the relevant government departments. Examples of such co-operatives are those for housing, financial services, workers, agriculture, stokvels and traditional savings clubs, and public service.

This Bill empowers the Department of Trade and Industry to play the leadership role of giving support to all the departments, sections and the levels of government through the Parliamentary Portfolio Committee, which includes all relevant government departments and the Co-operatives Advisory Board that will be established through this Bill.

I have instructed all the agencies within the Department of Trade and Industry to design financial support and training programmes for co- operatives.

The Department of Trade and Industry is in the final stages of drafting institutional and financial support programmes for the development of co- operatives, including training that has been accredited by the Seta.

This form of support will assist co-operatives to mobilise savings and accumulate assets and raise the initial working capital required to start up businesses. It will be easy because they will do this as a collective rather than as individuals.

The Development Business Unit, which falls under the Department of Trade and Industry, is designing its own co-operatives support programme.

The draft policy on co-operatives will be tabled before Parliament in the near future. As members of this House we need to go to our constituencies and inform people about this Bill because, as I have already said, the people whom this Co-operatives Bill is intended to benefit – in the development plan - are those who have nothing, who are members of stokvels, burial societies, women and the youth.

People will never know about such efforts that the government has in place and intends to implement unless we adopt and publicise this Bill.]

The implementation plan will empower provinces to grow their own co- operative movements in line with their provincial growth development strategies and sectoral approaches. We all know that provinces differ in terms of their sectoral strength and natural endowment. Therefore to achieve the same common goals of employment, growth, equity and broader empowerment, the provinces will, in line with the national plan, design their own strategic approach to implement this programme. Government will make available resources nationally but provinces, as already stated, will also need to budget adequately for the co-operative programme.

I think it is important to say that government assistance to co-operatives is geared towards empowerment. It should never be construed as interference by government to erode and infringe on their economy, but as an endeavour to increase their competitiveness, self-reliance and pursuit of equity and equality.

Our commitment and ability to work together will be critical to provide for a better investment climate that would create growth and employment, which in turn will lead to the alleviation of poverty and social inclusion.

I would be failing in my duty if I did not make special reference to the significant contributions that were made by both the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry and the NCOP in respect of this Bill when it was initially introduced in Parliament and on its first reading to the National Assembly, and on its deliberations in the NCOP.

The contribution by the NCOP to ensuring that this legislation empowers the rural people, especially the targeted sectors of the second economy, and that provinces be fully involved was very critical.

The NCOP reiterated the need to see implementation taking place up to the local level and resources being made available through synergies with local strategies and programmes such as the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Strategy, the integrated development plans and the local economic development programmes; including agencies such as Gauteng Enterprise, Propeller, Red Door, Cedaw, Salga, and the Umsobomvu Youth Fund amongst others.

So, a clear reading of the Bill as amended makes it very clear that thorough and in-depth deliberations took place during the committee stages and that the Bill ultimately enjoyed the support of both committees. I table the Bill before this House. Thank you. [Applause.]

Ms N D NTWANAMBI: Thank you very much, Deputy Chairperson, I will have to run Xhosa classes so that at least our names are correctly pronounced.

Let me first thank the Deputy Minister. You see, Comrade Deputy Minister . . . “. . . ukrobe ezingqondweni zethu wabona ebesikucwangcisile.” [. . . you peeked into our minds and you observed the plan.] It is an honour for me to stand here and proudly support the Bill that has been with our committee for the past three weeks. We are satisfied as parties and agree that the Bill is really needed in the changing South Africa. The Bill seeks to promote development of sustainable co-operatives and increase the number of economic enterprises operating in the formal economy.

Njengoko uMongameli weli wayetshilo, eli lithuba lokuba abantu bayeke ukukhongozwa, koko bavuke bazenzele. Ngomoya kaVukuzenzele, amakhosikazi amaninzi asemakhaya aza kukwazi ukuhlangana enze abakopolotyeni sithetha ngabo. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[As the President of this country said, people should stop waiting for hand- outs and should do things for themselves. In the spirit of Vukuzenzele, most women from rural areas will be able to form corporations.]

As somebody who went to school in the rural village of Cala in the Eastern Cape, this Bill really reminded me of my grandmother. She belonged to a women’s society called Zenzele. They had competitions, sold their produce, and, most importantly, as a group of old women they organised themselves and started a clinic to service that area.

Sekela-Mphathiswa, nditsho ndiqinisekile ukuba lo Mthetho uyilwayo uza kuwunyusa nangakumbi umgangatho wamakhosikazi anendlela necebo elihambisana nezi ziphakamiso uze nazo kule Ndlu. Mhlawumbi abantu baza kukwazi ukuzivulela nditsho nebhanki eyeyabo.

Ukongeza kumazwi akho, Sekela-Mphathiswa, ndiyakumema ukuba apha ekupheleni kukaNovemba uze kubona ukuba amakhosikazi awalele, koko ayezenzela. Indlala yinto akwaziyo ukuyigxotha, kwaye ayiqulunqa kwangethuba le nto.

Iiholide zeKrisimesi zixhotyelwa kwangoJanyuwari. NgesiXhosa sithi awondlali indoda ingekafiki, kodwa ke thina siyilungiselela kwangethuba loo nto. [Uwele-wele.] Uyabona, kule mibutho yethu, umbutho ngamnye wenza imali engamawaka ngonyaka.

USEKELA-MHLALINGAPHAMBILI: Inzwi!

Ezo zezi zinto kanye lo Mthetho uyilwayo usixhobisela zona, ukuze sikwazi ukukhasela entweni. Ngamanye amazwi uthi: Vuka vilandini! Nanjengamntu ukholiweyo ke, maqabane, kulaa Ncwadi imlomo ubomvu kukho into ethi masigqale imbovane.

Singathini ke ukungazixhobisi, ngakumbi xa lo rhulumente wabantu sele eze noncedo. Ungafika kwaba bhazabhaza beevenkile, Sekela-Mphathiswa, kuzele ngoomama; awusoze ubabone abantu abangamadoda; bambalwa ukuba bakhona ababa ngamalungu. Ungaya, uya kubona ukuba ngosuku olunye nje, aba bhazabhaza beevenkile benza ngaphezulu kwesigidi seerandi; ziinzame zamakhosikazi ezo. Into ebonakalisa ukuba lo Mthetho ufike ngexesha elililo. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[Deputy Minister, I am convinced that this Bill will lift the standards of women, who have similar plans to what you have tabled in this House, in particular. Perhaps, they will be able to open their own bank.

To add on to what you have said, Deputy Minister, I would like to invite you at the end of November to come and see that women are working. They are able to fight poverty through their projects.

They do their project planning in advance in the same way that they prepare for the Christmas holidays in January. In isiXhosa we say that you do not prepare the bed before the man arrives, but we have prepared everything in time. [Interjections.] You see, in our associations each association makes thousands of rands per year. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): Silence!

Ms N D NTWANAMBI: This Bill enables us to move forward. In other words we say: Wake up, you who are indolent! As someone who has faith, comrade, there is a saying in the Bible that says, let us look at the ants.

Why are we unable to empower ourselves, especially since our democratic government has created an enabling environment? Deputy Minister, one will find that the chain stores are full of women who belong to savings clubs of which none of the members are men. One will find that the chain stores make millions of rands through women’s efforts. This shows that this Bill has reached us at the right time.]

Now that the stokvels and “imigalelo” [traditional savings clubs] will be formalised, they will be assisted to develop business plans. These will be building blocks towards a better life for all. I should again stress that this is the best route to financial independence.

As we celebrate the 50th anniversary of our best programme of action this weekend, as women of this country, we would like to say that we are benefiting from the wealth of this country. Let me also say that as it is the Bill’s intention to promote equity and greater participation by black participants, particularly women, we say: “Siwuxhasa nangakumbi lo Mthetho uyilwayo.” [“We support this Bill”.]

Those in the textile industry will be able to keep open the factories that are closing down, particularly here in the Western Cape. People will not look upon the national government only, but will engage all spheres of government, as was indicated in the previous debate.

In other words, this will also include delivery agencies. This means that the Intergovernmental Relations Framework Bill that has been passed in the House today will be the best vehicle for partnership between government and the people. The left hand will know what the right hand is doing, of course, with funded mandates. Let me also say that the department needs to embark on a programme to inform people of these agencies.

Yeyona ndawo sisaqhwalelayo ke kuyo leyo, Sekela-Mphathiswa. [That is one area where we are still lagging behind, Deputy Minister.]

More still has to be done so that people know what we mean when we speak of opportunities that are there. There is a cry that your good programmes are urban-based. Very little is known by people who are not in the big towns. These are the people who must benefit more, as you have already said.

In the last few minutes of my speech, Madam Deputy Chair, I want to add that I receive letters from already established co-ops that do not want to restructure, as proposed in the Bill. We can’t derive our actions from the well-established agricultural sector, as explained.

Our main objective as members . . . “kukukhupha bonke abantu ebugxwayibeni nasentluphekweni, ngaphandle komkhethe, ukuze bonke baxhamle, bazenzele . . .“ [. . . is to take all the people, without regard to any differences, out of misery and poverty, so that they can all benefit and do things for themselves . . .] . . . and be proud to say that this government has assisted us to be where we are.

Ndifuna ukuthi ubomi obungcono esithetha ngabo siyi-ANC bobo apho abantu ngokwabo bathi bahlale esitulweni somqhubi, bangabi ngabakhweli okanye abakhweliswa, koko baziqhubele ngokwabo. Xa sithetha ngoosomashishini soloko sicinga ngabantu asele bephambili. Lo Mzantsi Afrika esiphila kuwo asingowabantu abathile, ngokawonke-wonke, ngoko ke wonke umntu makaxhamle. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[The better life the ANC is referring to is for people to be in the driver’s seat and not to take a back seat. When we talk of businessmen we think of highly developed people. South Africa is not just for certain individuals, in fact it is for everybody and therefore we must all benefit.]

In conclusion, Madam Deputy Chair, let me thank the department and you, Deputy Minister.

Egameni lamakhosikazi, siyayibulela indima eza kukhulisa amakhosikazi amatsha nasele ekhulile. Lo Mthetho uyilwayo ufundisa ubunye nentsebenziswano eya kuzala oosomashishini abakhulayo. [On behalf of the women, we thank you for the role that you have played in helping to develop young and old women. This Bill promotes unity and co-operation that will culminate in developing businesses.]

We don’t want to say “abasakhasayo”, which means “who are still crawling” in isiXhosa. We don’t want to crawl all the time, we want to grow.

Lo msantsa uphakathi kwabo banakho nabo bangenakho uza kude uvaleke xa izinto zisenziwa lula kangaka. Ayabulela amakhosikazi. [Kwaqhwatywa.] [The gap between those who have and those who do not have will finally be closed when things are made this easy. Women are thanking you. [Applause.]]

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, hon members, the Co-operative Bill was previously restructured in a way to overcome the shortcomings of the Co-operations Act, Act 91 of 1981. In a gentle yet parenting fashion the Bill expressly requires co-operatives to comply with internationally accepted co-operatives principles.

It also recognises individuality, and although applying to all types of co- operatives, it accepts the special features of co-ops and in doing so steers away from the current Act, which expresses favouritism towards the agricultural sector. The different categories of co-operatives are clearly defined in a way that allows for international comparisons and also provide guidelines for simplifying the process of registering, converting or winding down co- operatives. It is therefore clear that this Bill seeks to give legal recognition and protection to co-operatives’ identity.

It is also important to mention that the Bill provides for the establishment of an advisory board, as well as the fact that the role of government is limited to that of facilitator and support provider for new co-operatives and those still developing.

If there is one shortcoming that we as the DA feel the Bill has, it is that it fails to accept the principle of patronage voting in the case of primary co-operatives, providing that each member of a primary co-operative, regardless of unequal contribution or investment, now only has one vote.

I am of the opinion that it is not fair to give a co-operative member who has money and made an investment of, let say, R100 000 and another who made an investment of R10 000 the same voting rights. The consequences of the one-member-one-vote provision could be that bigger investor members, rather than put their capital at risk, would leave the co-operatives and form companies where the risk of loss would be reduced.

It would, therefore, have been more sensible to make use of the proportional voting system, because it will ensure that there is an incentive for bigger members to stay in the co-operatives and by doing so ensure the sustainability of the co-operatives.

Lastly, in an unfortunate event that was also monitored by the Parliamentary Monitoring Group, some of the correspondence dealing with this Bill, from NCT Forestry Co-operative Limited and Cosatu, for instance, was only sent to certain members of this select committee. I did address the issue at the meeting and was given the assurance that the relevant documents would be forwarded to me.

However, I only received some of the correspondence a week later, after having to ask for it again. It is regrettable that the DA was not given access to this information at the same time as the rest of the committee, and I urge the chairperson of the committee to include everyone in their distribution list in future, in the interest of true democracy and transparency. The DA supports this Bill. [Applause.]

Mr K SINCLAIR: Deputy Chairperson, the Co-operatives Bill aims to address all the problems and shortcomings of the Co-operatives Act, Act 91 of 1981, thereby creating a suitable vehicle for the creation of co-operatives with principles of economic empowerment. The objects of the Bill can be summarised, as follows: the promotion of the development of sustainable co- operatives to encourage people who subscribe to co-operative principles to register as such; to promote equity; and further to facilitate the provision of support programmes for co-operatives, especially those that create employment or benefit disadvantaged groups.

It seems that the main objective of the Bill is to provide a form of body corporate that is suitable for current needs. One example is to enable contractors from a previously disadvantaged background to join forces in order to submit realistic, practical and competitive tenders. That is why it is necessary for the new legislation to be put in place.

The old legislation catered for more sophisticated co-operatives. However, the need has arisen to promote co-operatives in grassroots areas. The new legislation is more inclusive; it makes provision for different types of co- operatives and it will draw in more people in the economic sphere of our society. Special measures must be put in place by the Department of Trade and Industry for previously disadvantaged groups to receive assistance.

Today we once again experienced something from the DA that we have experienced time and time again, and that is that we sit in the same committees, we get the same explanations, but it seems that we relate differently to the information that we get. It was explained at length during the sittings that the concern raised by the DA was not really a real concern, because the issue that was raised in terms of the primary co- operatives was covered by the secondary and tertiary co-operatives - as explained by the officials.

An important issue is that existing co-operatives must, within three years of promulgation of the Bill, amend their constitutions in order to comply with the requirements of the Bill. They must also submit their revised constitutions to the Registrar of Co-operatives. The registrar must issue a certificate stating that the specific co-operative’s constitution complies with the Bill, or issue a directive wherein the respect in which the constitution fails to comply is set out.

This is indeed a necessary tool to further breach the division between the first and the second economies of our country. I think it is necessary that this honourable House passes this Bill to make it possible for us to address the challenges of our time, namely unemployment and poverty; but through that, create a better society where people can live and create jobs for their own survival. Thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): I would like to draw the attention of the members of this House to Rule 32:

During the debate in the Council, no member may converse aloud.

Thank you.

Mr D G MKONO: Hon Deputy Chairperson, Deputy Minister, hon members, as we debate the Bill before us, it is of vital importance that we do not lose sight of the fact that the introduction of this Bill addresses the shortcomings of the Co-operatives Act, Act 91 of 1981.

That Act was too prescriptive and catered mostly for highly commercial and well-established co-operatives, especially the big agricultural co- operatives. This situation is bound to change with this new legislation. The transferral of the co-operative unit from the Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs to the Department of Trade and Industry is not aimed at prejudicing the agricultural sector, but is rather to provide support to all types and forms of co-operatives in all sectors of the economy.

The Act defines co-operatives in accordance with internationally accepted definitions. It also increases participation by targeted groups in the management of co-operatives and the role of government as facilitator, through support, and therefore the House will realise that the exclusivity that existed before has now been bridged.

Having projected the objectives of these amendments, and having studied the important role that the department has played in conscientising people about its projects, which are aimed at educating and equipping our people with the skills and resources to become more self-reliant and business serving, we must implore the department not to concentrate mainly on urban areas. The DTI must intensify their education campaigns in the rural areas, because we believe that these are the people who need more assistance and access to government resources.

We must encourage our people, and especially our young people, to enter the business sector earlier in their lives, thus we have various youth entrepreneurship programmes. Allow me a few more minutes to sketch the integrated nature of the ANC-led government’s various development programmes.

It is important for the people of South Africa to conscientise themselves about those new developments, and to play a catalytic role in ensuring that they better equip themselves to take advantage of the services and opportunities offered by government initiatives, like the Umsobomvu Youth Fund.

Programmes like the EPWP provide the opportunity to introduce and skill the beneficiaries in various areas by taking advantage of the opportunities that may be available under the new Co-operatives Act. These people may wish to pool their resources and skills acquired through these programmes, and start their own businesses.

One important aspect about co-operative businesses is that they are long- term, sustainable methods of job creation and poverty alleviation. This is in line with our stated intention to assist the people of South Africa to become active participants and beneficiaries of our remarkable economic growth. Therefore the notion by the DA, especially hon Terblanche, that this is not going to be sustainable, is really uncalled for.

Anyway, I think Mr Sinclair has dealt with her adequately. If you give her a chance to speak and deliberate in the committee, she will respond by saying that she would speak in the House. I don’t know whether her intention is to play to the gallery or to assist the people that voted her in. [Interjections.] In any event, if you give Ms Terblanche all the documents, you would in fact be wasting your time, because she seems to never have a chance to look at the documents. [Interjections.] Every time we are in the committee she is playing with . . . [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): Order!

Mr D G MKONO: Chair, it would therefore be prudent for me to earn my speech by responding to those few things. There are these misguided political parties, like the DA, whose sole purpose is to destroy the good image of this government. [Interjections.] If you listen to them it becomes crystal clear that they are trying to ensure that the opposition becomes angry, and that it becomes more than an angry white voice. [Interjections.] But what is there for them to gain? That is the question that we should ask.

In any event, if you read their 1994 election manifesto, their slogan was “Fight Back”. Fight back what? [Interjections.]

Mr A WATSON: Madam Chair, on a point of order: The speaker is debating the DA, and not the Bill before the House. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF NCOP (Ms P Hollander): Hon Watson, that is not a point of order. Hon member, you may continue with your speech. [Interjections.]

Mr D G MKONO: Chair, to the disappointment of the DA, the people of South Africa still see the ANC as their saviour, because they are convinced that the tide has turned and they believe in the people’s contract for a better tomorrow. So, we are a formidable force. Thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): Hon members, will you please give the hon member a chance to complete the debate.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: As I have said, I thank the hon members for their contributions. I would like to say that I agree fully, and I thank the chairperson of the committee for what she said, because indeed part of the objective of this Bill is to stop . . . “. . . oomama bethu ekubeni bamane besiya emarikeni mihla le besiya kuthenga imifuno, endaweni yokuba bazenzele imarike yabo, bandise amandla abo okuthenga bathenge ndawonye . . .” [. . . our mothers from going to buy vegetables at the market every day, instead of creating their own vegetables market and increasing their buying power by buying together.]

This Bill may sound like a far-fetched dream. Indeed, it has the capacity and the potential to enable people that are saving together, through increasing their savings to establish their own bank, and it is something that we might actually achieve in the long term.

They can make real savings and increase their buying power if they form consumer co-operatives. The opportunities are endless, and indeed I take your point when you say - we as the department as well and I have said as much in my address - that as provinces it is incumbent upon each one of us to go back and ensure that we spread the message about not only the co- operatives legislation, but also about other government initiatives that seek to eradicate poverty and underdevelopment.

But, as a department, I take it that we also have the same responsibility, to make sure that we make this known in a language that is accessible to the people. I have taken note of all those things and I thank all the other members for their contributions.

The one issue I would like to address, and it is a pity that despite our, having argued and debated this legislation in the National Assembly, through committees and here the DA does not seem to get it. They are busy complaining about the principle of one person, one vote when, in fact, it is very clear in the legislation that we have created other forms of co- operatives that people can form. Secondary, tertiary and primary: in the case of the primary co-operative, that is where we are saying that the one- person-one-vote principle is going to apply.

What the DA is arguing for is the power of capital in the form of the bigger the stake, the bigger the vote - a very undemocratic principle as far as community relations are concerned. For us this principle of one member, one vote is the very principle that underpins the democracy, which is a cornerstone of co-operatives as they stand today.

And I think we must not lose sight of the fact that this principle of one member, one vote is meant to ensure that the members of the co-operative . . . Remember we want everybody who is a member of this co-operative to be engaged in the work of the co-operative in one way or the other.

These people who are members of the co-operatives are to ensure that they must be able at all times to democratically take decisions about how are they going to run these institutions - and not just one person because of the money and muscle that they have to then direct how these institutions, the assets, and the investments are going to happen.

For us, we think we have put in front of the nation and the people a piece of legislation that is properly thought out, and that is indeed going to change the lives of our people. I would like to end with a quote because I am still not convincing the Democratic Party, or Democratic Alliance; sometimes I still make such mistakes - the Democratic Alliance.

You know, when I presented the Bill in Parliament, in the National Assembly, I quoted these writers, very knowledgeable writers. I quoted from Robert Briscoe’s article, in which he wrote about the co-operative difference, and I quote - and I want to end with this quote, because this is the cornerstone of co-operatives in this country, in the world not just this country: To be successful co-operatives must have a higher purpose than that of just making money . . . The centre of any co-operative’s concern is human beings, not dollars, and the business is really a means to human ends.

Debate concluded.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, this is not a point of order, but I think let us take this opportunity, as the NCOP, to congratulate the Deputy Minister on her recent appointment as the Minister.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): Minister Hendricks, congratulations and may you go further with your work.

               MINERALS AND ENERGY LAWS AMENDMENT BILL


            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

Mr K SINCLAIR: Politics is a very funny game, Chairperson. When you need a lot of time you only get a little time, and when you get a little time to say a few things then you don’t have that opportunity. Today I got the opportunity to speak for 10 minutes on a Bill that actually needed just one minute. [Laughter.]

In terms of what we are discussing, and what is on the Order Paper, this Bill is a very technical Bill that strives to address a legal oversight, which happened and had to be put right. The objectives of the Bill is that it is important to correct both the Mining Titles Registration Amendment Act and the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act of 2002, in order to ensure that both Acts reflect the correct intention of the legislature.

The Bill seeks to amend both a schedule to the Mining Titles Registration Amendment Act of 2003, and schedule 1 to the Mineral And Petroleum Resources Development Act of 2002 in order to restore – and this is the important part - with retrospective effect, the erroneously repealed section 310 of the Deeds Registration Act, and a provision to section 90 of the Deed’s Registration Act of 1937 that was erroneously removed by the Mining Title Registration Amendment Act of 2003.

Unfortunately, this Bill says nothing about the DA and the committee, and the committee has unanimously proposed to this hon House that this Bill be approved.

Debate concluded.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

 CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND
  ADMINISTRATION - INTERVENTION IN THE PHUMELELA LOCAL MUNICIPALITY

Mr S SHICEKA: Deputy Chair, I think the House must note that your pronunciation has improved a great deal. [Laughter.] I think that with a lot of encouragement the Deputy Chair will arrive where she is supposed to be. [Laughter.]

The select committee wishes to report to this House and request its approval of the intervention in the Phumelela municipality. This has occurred after two processes were undertaken. Firstly, there was a report from the executive cabinet of the Free State about the situation and the state of the municipality, which precipitated the MEC’s intervention in that municipality.

The committee made a visit to establish facts, which are supposed to assist this House to come to a determination whether to approve or disapprove the intervention. The committee met with various formations: the MEC, the portfolio committee, the district municipality, the administration, the local municipality, organised labour, business community, Sanco and ward committees.

The committee had to engage with the following issues: firstly, whether there was any compliance by the executive with the provision of section 139 of the Constitution; secondly, whether the prevailing circumstances warranted any intervention; and whether the intervention was used as a measure of last resort, when all other measures that were supposed to be taken had been exhausted.

The following are the issues that we established when we were there. We were able to establish that there was a lack of co-operation and discipline amongst councillors, which affected the administration and service delivery. There was a general lack of infrastructure around sanitation. The bucket system was still in use and also the night soil removal system was still in place in that area. At times this night soil was not collected. Therefore that caused a lot of health hazards in the area concerned.

The administration was poorly skilled at a technical level and regarding infrastructure and finance. Even the skills of the leader of the administration, the municipal manager, left a lot to be desired. There was a lack of compliance with the laws of this country. At the same time, there was a failure to sign performance contracts. Ward committees, where they existed, were functioning at varying degrees and levels and, also, they were not supported financially and administratively.

Therefore these shortcomings convinced the committee that the intervention was necessary in that part of our country, that is, Phumelela local municipality. We then agreed that corrective steps had to be taken. Amongst other things, these steps are to encourage and promote a culture of payment and at the same time accelerate service delivery; the bucket system needs to be eradicated in the long term; the strengthening of co-operation between the district and local municipality; and, capacitating of the administration so that it is able to perform its tasks and responsibilities.

We also came to the determination that the MEC has to report to this House on a monthly basis, with regard to developments that are occurring in that municipality. In that respect, this committee proposes that this House approves the intervention in the Phumelela municipality and supports Project Consolidate in that municipality, so that even the national government can play a key role in mentoring, guiding and capacitating the Phumelela municipality. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Report be adopted.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I shall now put the question and the question is that the Report be adopted. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. Are all delegation heads present?

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of vote, if they so wish. We shall now proceed to voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour of or against or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE (Eastern Cape): In favour.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN (Free State): In favour.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Gauteng?

Mr E M SOGONI (Gauteng): Siyavuma. [We support.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI (KwaZulu-Natal): KwaZulu-Natal is in favour.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Limpopo?

Ms H F MATLANYANE (Limpopo): Limpopo votes in favour.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga?

Ms F NYANDA (Mpumalanga): Mpumalanga votes in favour.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Northern Cape?

Mr K SINCLAIR (Northern Cape): Northern Cape supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI (North West): North West, ke a rona [North West supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape? Mr N MACK (Western Cape): Supports.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

[Applause.]

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PARLIAMENTARY OVERSIGHT AUTHORITY ON TRAVEL FACILITIES FOR MPs (REFERRED TO AS L19)

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Deputy Chairperson, the Report is a very long one, as tabled in the ATC of yesterday. I am sure you must have seen it, you must have read it and you are happy that we can adopt it. [Laughter.] Do you agree?

Hon members, let me just say a few words about this Report. I must tell you that I am very happy to stand in front of you today and introduce this Report from the Parliamentary Oversight Authority, where all the parties are represented.

We have discussed this policy document for quite a long time and we have just decided that it is time that we present it before the House so that we can adopt it and implement some of the things which are in the policy document. But the most crucial thing I want the members to realise is that this policy document has never been revisited since its inception.

Ayizange keyibhekwe ukuthi iphetheni la ngaphakathi kwayo. [It has never been revisited to check what it contains.]

Particularly, my concern and other presiding officers’ concern was that members were spending a lot of money from their own pockets in doing their work. They have not been looked after in terms of facilities. What we are trying to do with this document is to begin to address the needs of members. And I want you to understand this in a context of facilities in their totality.

What we have done at the present moment is that we are at the beginning of addressing your needs in terms of facilities as members of Parliament, and I am going to give a number of examples. Members of Parliament are not taken care of in many instances. I will give you an example that we need to look at because some of these things are not in L19, but we have to look at some in order to include them.

You get people, for example, who take flights from here to Johannesburg and who then begin to drive a distance of approximately 800 km or 900 km when they go to their constituencies. We are not addressing these things, we expect members to do these things on their own. We think that members should be supported in order to bring about the transformation of Parliament and to enable them to do their work in the manner in which they are supposed to be doing it.

We are not giving members enough support. You will understand, for example, that I have looked at your telephone tariffs and they have never been changed. The Telkom tariffs have escalated for many years, but you are still being given a very low rate in terms of Telkom. I don’t know how you people were operating in your offices in terms of paying your telephones, etc. What I mean is that, today, your telephones are the most sophisticated tools that you can use in communicating with your offices, with your constituency and whoever. Therefore we had to revisit these things and look at them.

I see that they are talking here about things such as “a member will qualify for something like 120 envelopes and 1 000 letterheads” and all those things. What can you really do with about 120 envelopes? That can only happen if you are not communicating and if you are not writing. Those small things, which you think are small, but are things that members need to be supported on and to use, have not been attended to. We had to revisit this document and ask: What are the things that we think we can do?

But I can say today that L19 takes you just a little bit further. It does not yet address the total needs of members – where it can take you from point A to the last point of your destination, where you want to go and do your job and be supported as a member of Parliament in this country. We have to address those things, but this is the beginning.

My view will be that this document has to be revisited almost on an annual basis, so that we can see where members are suffering and how we can add to our budget, because these things are to be budgeted for as you budget for your five-year term in your MTEF. Therefore you pick up these things and you budget for them so that members are in a position to do their job without it hitting their pockets hard, because that is what is happening at the present moment.

The establishment of the new governance model, the one that I have been talking about, for example, is aimed at formulating a policy directive for various services and facilities in Parliament, that is the Parliamentary Oversight Authority, POA. This is a policy, which, firstly, we thought we should align with the needs of the members in Parliament. But, also, we need to ensure that that policy is being implemented. Therefore we have to begin to implement this policy once both Houses have adopted it today.

The other thing is to ensure that there is compliance with the relevant legislation, determining the policy parameters and the delegating of the management, the detail in the planning of the implementation of policy and all those things, so that these policy documents begin to address all those things. I am very glad today that we have tabled it in both Houses so that we can see what we can do.

There are numerous errors in this document. After this discussion you will refer it back to us so that we can correct those errors. For example, this document will begin to talk to the new travel system; as you are aware we have promised that we are going to do away with the vouchers. So the thing of the vouchers is going to be a thing of the past.

We were supposed to have implemented the new system at the beginning of July, but I think we will have a little bit of a delay. The problem is that when staff was supposed to train the members on the new system, it was badly co-ordinated. Less than 20 members have attended that type of training. We don’t want to impose a system that members don’t know and don’t understand. We want that training to take place so that members can say, “We understand the system, it has problems here and there”. We want you to make changes wherever there are problems, and close the gaps and the loopholes so that you will utilise a system, which you will be sure you are comfortable with.

But what we are going to do is that on 1 July, simultaneously, whilst you are taking this training, we are going to introduce what we call run-up trials of the systems. We, all the Chief Whips and all chairpersons of committees, are going to start to use that system so that we test it and try to check what the problems are with the system.

During the whole of July we will test the system. The system will be tested by some of us who will be travelling and some of you as well. If you want to test this system, you are allowed to. Just test the system, there is nothing wrong with that, and then check whether it creates problems for us. If it does, let’s see where it creates problems for us. If it doesn’t and we say this is a fine system, then we will continue with the system and apply it in full force in August when we come back. You will continue temporarily with your vouchers until we introduce the new system.

The other thing I want to point out is we expect that everybody will be absorbed into this system by the middle of August. But it is very important for us to test it first and make sure that the members understand the system itself.

There are a few mistakes in the current document where it talks about travel warrants or travel vouchers. So don’t be surprised when you see that. We have already said to the staff that they must remove that type of terminology because it is not correct, it is not going to fit into the new system. They should speak about air journeys rather than speaking about the travel vouchers because this document must speak to the new travel system.

It’s a policy that will be implemented when we introduce the new travel system. Those little mistakes that you will see will be cleaned up when it comes back to us and then the document will be returned to you.

Another thing we have done is this: Members will remember that there were those 20% tickets, where a member used to pay 20% and Parliament paid 80% for you. What we have suggested is this: Parliament, anyway, pays 80% for you, isn’t it? Now, why do we keep this 80% with us? When the new system is introduced – this is actually even there in the new document - the 10 single 80% vouchers that we are talking about will equal eight additional vouchers, ok? What we have done is that we have loaded those eight vouchers onto your 70, and that is why you will see that they make 78 now, so you have more. You don’t have to wait for Parliament to say, “you use 20% first and then we pay”. We have automatically loaded it for you. You will use it the way you want to use it.

Another advantage of the new system that is coming is that a member will be in a position to utilise any air company that a member wants to utilise. If you want to utilise .com Kulula or Kulula.com, feel free to do so – I don’t know what it is called. [Laughter.] If you want to use SAA or British Airways, do so. If you have an intelligent agency that books for you, you can save a lot because there are some discounted seats with the different airlines. If you get discounted seats that amount of money comes back to you and you can be in a position to buy another additional ticket for yourself.

Therefore you can actually benefit from more than 78, if you plan well in time and you get an intelligent agency that can strike a deal with airlines and give you discount on some of the journeys; or when they have some promotions, whatever the case may be. All that will come back to the member instead of coming back to Parliament. This is what the new system is going to address. It depends on how you are going to use it, so that you can actually benefit more from the new system that is coming. We thought we should present this to you.

The last thing I want to comment on is the burning issue hon Gumede raised with me. You will see that in the L19 we are not addressing fully the issues of people with disabilities. We have taken a very conscious decision about that, that we need a separate policy for the people with disabilities. It has already been drafted and it is on my table. We should adopt that policy early next week, because we have categorised the people with disabilities. There are those that you call quadriplegic, the deaf, the visually impaired or blind. Whatever you can call it, some need broader assistance, some need very detailed assistance and so on. We have already completed that policy.

What you see in the L19 is just to keep you going for now. There is a detailed policy for the people with disabilities that we will also be passing. It will enable us to solve all your problems, not in terms of travelling only, but in terms of your equipment in Parliament, stationery, travelling, telephones and everything. We are covering all those things that will suit people with disabilities. Chairperson of Committees, thank you very much. I want to stop there and I wish you will pass this policy document. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, the other time when I was congratulating the recently appointed Minister, some were asking, “Who is our Deputy President?” It is no longer something which is kept under wraps, as Mr Sogoni has said, because the country now has a new Deputy President of the Republic of South Africa, the hon Phumzile Mlambo-Ngcuka. [Applause.]

Regarding the Sixth Order on the Order Paper, we would like to say that it should reflect policy on members’ facilities because that does not only deal with travel facilities, as the Chairperson said. It speaks about stationery, which is not a mode of transport; it speaks about telephones, which is a mode of communication rather than transport; and so on. We would rather prefer that it be called “policy on members’ facilities” and that we do away with this L19, which is a pre-1994 thing. Actually, if we were counting, in terms of review, it could have been L37, or whatever.

ADOPTION OF POLICY ON FACILITIES FOR MEMBERS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY AND PERMANENT DELEGATES TO THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council –

 1) adopts the policy, as presented, on Facilities for Members  of  the
    National Assembly and Permanent Delegates to the  National  Council
    of Provinces; and


 2) noting that a range of  issues  still  require  further  attention,
    mandates the Presiding Officers  to  initiate  a  process  to  give
    further consideration to relevant issues.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. Are all delegation heads present?

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces an opportunity to make their declarations of vote, if they so wish. We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour of or against or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE (Eastern Cape): Steun. [Supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN (Free State): Vrystaat steun. [Free State supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Gauteng?

Mr E M SOGONI (Gauteng): Siyavuma. [We support.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI (KwaZulu-Natal): KwaZulu-Natal votes in favour.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Limpopo?

Ms H F MATLANYANE (Limpopo): Steun. [Supports.] [Laughter.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga?

Ms F NYANDA (Mpumalanga): Siyavuma. [We support.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Northern Cape?

Mr K SINCLAIR (Northern Cape): Steun. [Supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI (North West): North West, ke a rona. [North West supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape?

Mr N MACK (Western Cape): Wes-Kaap steun. [Western Cape supports.] [Laughter.]

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

[Applause.]

The Council adjourned at 16:17. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. Bill passed by Houses – to be submitted to President for assent

 (1)    Bill passed by National Assembly on 22 June 2005:


     (i)     National Ports Bill [B 5F – 2003] (National Assembly – sec
          75)


 (2)    Bills passed by National Council of Provinces on 22 June 2005:


    (i)      Intergovernmental Relations Framework Bill [B 3B – 2005]
             (National Assembly – sec 75)


    (ii)     Re-determination of the Boundaries of Cross-Boundary
             Municipalities Bill [B 12 – 2005] (National Assembly – sec
             75)


    (iii)    Co-operatives Bill [B 4B – 2005] (National Assembly – sec
             75)


    (iv)     Minerals and Energy Laws Amendment Bill [B 1 – 2005]
             (National Assembly – sec 75) National Council of Provinces

1. Messages from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces in respect of Bills passed by Assembly and transmitted to Council:

 (1)    Bills passed by National Assembly on 22 June 2005 and
    transmitted for concurrence:


        i) Children’s Bill [B 70B – 2003] (National Assembly – sec 75)


           The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on Social
           Services of the National Council of Provinces.


        ii) Judicial Matters Amendment Bill [B 2B – 2005] (National
            Assembly – sec 75)


           The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on
           Security and Constitutional Affairs of the National Council
           of Provinces.

1. Referrals to committees of papers tabled

   (1) The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs for consideration and report:

    Report on the withholding of remuneration of Mr. H W
    Moldenhauer, Chief Magistrate, Pretoria, tabled in terms of
    section 13(4A)(b) of the Magistrates Act, 1993 (Act No 90 of
    1993).
   

   (2) The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs:

    Interim Report of the Special Investigating Unit (SIU) for the
    period April 2004 to September 2004 [RP 128-2004].
   

   (3) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs:

    Memorandum of Understanding between the Government of the
    Republic of South Africa and the African Union Contributing
    South African Police Service Monitors to the Civilian Police
    Component of the African Union Mission in the Darfur Region of
    the Republic of Sudan (AMIS), tabled in terms of section 231(3)
    of the Constitution, 1996.
   
   
    Report of the Judicial Service Commission for 2004.
    Government Notice No R.415 published in Government Gazette No
    27549 dated 29 April 2005: Amendment of Regulations in terms of
    the Judges’ Remuneration and Conditions of Employment Act, 2001
    (Act No 47 of 2001).
   
   
    Proclamation No R.21 published in Government Gazette No 27549
    dated 29 April 2005: Extension of the period of operation of
    sections 51 and 52 of the Criminal Law Amendment Act, 1997 (Act
    No 105 of 1997). (Approved by the House on 12 April 2005).
   

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Finance

   (1) Report of the Registrar of Long-Term Insurance for 2003.

(2)     Report of the Registrar of Short-Term Insurance for 2003.


(3)     Government Notice No R.456 published in Government Gazette No
    27580 dated 20 May 2005: Amendment of Money Laundering Control
    Regulations in terms of section 77 of the Financial Intelligence
    Centre Act, 2001 (Act No 38 of 2001).


(4)     Government Notice No R.455 published in Government Gazette No
    27580 dated 20 May 2005: Cancellation and Appointment of an
    Authorised Dealer in Foreign Exchange in terms of the Currency and
    Exchange Act, 1933 (Act No 9 of 1933).


(5)     Government Notice No 765 published in Government Gazette No
    27599 dated 27 May 2005: Amendment of the List of Public Entities
    in terms of the Public Finance Management Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of
    1999).

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Council of Provinces

1. Report of the Select Committee on Public Services on the Convention for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts Against the Safety of Maritime Navigation and Protocol for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts Against the Safety of Fixed Platforms on the Continental Shelf, dated 22 June 2005:

   The Select Committee on Public Services (National Council of Provinces), having considered the request for ratification and/or approval by Parliament of the Convention for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts Against the Safety of Maritime Navigation and Protocol for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts Against the Safety of Fixed Platforms on the Continental Shelf, referred to it, reports as follows:

   A: Introduction

   On 6 October 2004 Cabinet approved that South Africa should accede to the Convention for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts against the Safety of maritime Navigation and to the Protocol for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts against the Safety of Fixed Platforms Located on the Continental Shelf (SUA).

   Accordingly, the two multilateral treaties were tabled in both the National Assembly (NA) and the National Council of Provinces (NCOP) simultaneously on Wednesday, 25 May 2005, in terms of Section 231 (2) of the Constitution, which reads as follows –

   “ An international agreement binds the Republic only after it has been approved by resolution in both the National Assembly and the National Council of Provinces, …”

   On Tuesday, 31 May 2005, the treaties were subsequently referred to the Portfolio Committee on Transport (NA) and Select Committee on Public Services (NCOP) for consideration and reporting to the respective Houses.

   B: Background

   In November 1986 the Governments of Australia, Egypt and Italy proposed that the International Maritime Organisation (IMO) prepare a convention on the subject of unlawful acts against the safety of maritime navigation to provide for a comprehensive suppression of unlawful acts committed against the safety of maritime navigation which endanger innocent human lives, jeopardize the safety of persons and property, seriously affect the operation of maritime services and thus are of grave concern to the international community as a whole; and

   The subsequent adoption of the SUA Convention and its Protocol at the last day of the Diplomatic Conference held in Rome from March 1 to 10 1988 as well as the eventual entering into force of both instruments on March 01 1992.

   C: Objectives

   The objectives of the SUA Convention and its Protocol are –

    a) To ensure that appropriate action is  taken  against  persons
       committing unlawful acts against ships including  seizure  by
       force, acts of violence against persons on board  ships,  and
       the placing of devices on board a ship which  are  likely  to
       destroy or cause damage;
   
   
    b) To oblige Contracting  Governments  either  to  extradite  or
       prosecute alleged offenders; and
   
   
    c) To enable Member States including  South  Africa  to  address
       issues related to unlawful acts that threaten the  safety  of
       ships and the security of their passengers and crews.
   

   D: Political Implications

   The Political implications are as follows –

       a) In terms of the 2001 UN Security  Council  Resolution  1373
          adopted under Chapter  VII  of  the  UN  Charter  (“legally
          binding”), all Member States are obliged to  ratify  and/or
          accede to twelve (12) identified  compendium  of  anti-  or
          counter-terrorism Conventions;
   
   
       b) South Africa has so far ratified and/or acceded to nine (9)
          of the twelve (12) such identified Conventions –  with  the
          SUA Convention and its Protocol as well as  the  Department
          of Minerals and Energy aligned Convention for the  Physical
          Protection of Nuclear Material outstanding;
   
   
       c)  The  Protection  of   Constitutional   Democracy   against
          Terrorism  and  Related  Activities  Act  of   2004   makes
          reference to the twelve (12) Conventions and  also  creates
          “convention offences” which amongst others include offences
          under the SUA Convention and its Protocol;
   
   
       d) South Africa is tasked to report to the UN Security Council
          on a regular basis  and,  apart  from  being  almost  fully
          compliant with Resolution 1373, has been taken to  task  by
          the UN Security Council Counter Terrorism Committee for the
          delay in acceding to these remaining three (3) multilateral
          treaties;
   
   
       e) A review process is currently underway in the International
          Maritime Organisation (IMO) to amend the SUA Convention and
          its  Protocol  by/in  October  2005  and,  as  the  current
          proposed amendments conflict with South  Africa’s  existing
          legislation, it is important that South  Africa  should  be
          able to fully  participate  (as  a  Member  State)  in  the
          ensuing negotiations by being a Party to the Convention and
          its Protocol; and
   
   
       f) Hence it is imperative that Parliament approves  (ratifies)
          the Convention and its Protocol before or  on  the  end  of
          June 2005 – the latest – to allow South Africa enough  time
          to accede to and deposit its instruments of accession  with
          the  Secretary-General  of   the   International   Maritime
          Organisation (IMO) by no later than the first week of  July
          2005  –  within  a  period  of  ninety  (90)   days   after
          ratification by and/or accession to
   

   E: Benefits for the Country

   The benefits for the country are as follows –

   (a) Accession to the Convention and its Protocol will amongst others enable South Africa to develop or amend the relevant legislation which will serve as a tool to eliminate terrorism in sea transport; and

   (b) In so doing, boost the confidence of other countries to trade with South Africa thereby boosting the economy and social development of the country.

   F: Financial Implications

   There are no additional financial implications that will arise out of the implementation of these two treaty instruments since most functions that are contained therein are already performed by different government organs and are budgeted for in terms of government budgetary prescriptions.

   G: Recommendation(s)

   The Committee recommends that the Council, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Convention and Protocol.

Report to be considered.

1. Report of the Select Committee on Finance on the Taxation Laws Amendment Bill [B 19 - 2005] (National Assembly - sec 77), dated 22 June 2005:

The Select Committee on Finance, having considered the subject of the Taxation Laws Amendment Bill [B 19 - 2005] (National Assembly - sec 77), referred to it, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

1. Report of the Select Committee on Finance on the Taxation Laws Second Amendment Bill [B 20 - 2005] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 22 June 2005:

The Select Committee on Finance, having considered the subject of the Taxation Laws Second Amendment Bill [B 20 - 2005] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

1. Report of the Select Committee on Finance on the Convention between the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Republic Appropriation BillAppropriation Billof Ghana for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income and Capital Gains, dated 22 June 2005:

The Select Committee on Finance, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Convention between the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Republic Appropriation BillAppropriation Billof Ghana for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income and Capital Gains, referred to it, recommends that the Council, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Convention.

Report to be considered.

1. Report of the Select Committee on Finance on the Agreement between the Republic of South Africa and the Republic Appropriation BillAppropriation Billof Turkey for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion in respect to Taxes on IncomeAppropriation BillAppropriation Bill, dated 22 June 2005:

The Select Committee on Finance, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Agreement between the republic of South Africa and the Republic Appropriation BillAppropriation Billof Turkey for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion in respect to Taxes on IncomeAppropriation BillAppropriation Bill referred to it, recommends that the Council, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Agreement.

Report to be considered.

1. Report of the Select Committee on Finance on the Convention between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Republic Appropriation BillAppropriation Billof Congo for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on IncomeAppropriation BillAppropriation BillAppropriation BillAppropriation Bill, dated 22 June 2005:

The Select Committee on Finance, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Convention between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Republic Appropriation BillAppropriation Billof Congo for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on IncomeAppropriation BillAppropriation BillAppropriation BillAppropriation Bill referred to it, recommends that the Council, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Convention.

Report to be considered.

1. Report of the Select Committee on Finance on the Convention between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Republic Appropriation Bill of Gabon for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income Appropriation Bill, dated 22 June 2005:

The Select Committee on Finance, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Convention between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Republic Appropriation Bill of Gabon for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income Appropriation Bill referred to it, recommends that the Council, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Convention.

Report to be considered.