TUESDAY, 8 NOVEMBER 2005 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

                                ____

The Council met at 14:03.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I am informed that the Whippery has agreed that there will be no notices of motion or motions without notice today. We shall now proceed to the Questions as printed on the Order Paper.

I wish to also make the following announcement. The Minister of Housing has requested that the questions put to her be taken later on, as she is still held up. I have agreed to that and so we will end with the questions directed to the Minister of Housing.

I will now go to Question 1. Just before I call upon the Minister, I would like to inform you, as you would understand that Mr Sinclair is no longer a member of this House, I have decided that this question be responded to for the sake of the public and members as well. I will then call upon the Minister of Defence to deal with Question 1. Minister, you can feel free to address it from where you are seated or come over here. I think it is also fine to speak where you are, if you are okay with that.

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY:

New Questions:

           Cost, manufacture and budget of SANDF uniforms

1. Mr K A Sinclair asked the Minister of Defence:

 Whether the uniforms worn by members of the SA National Defence Force
 are manufactured in South Africa; if not, (a) in which countries are
 the uniforms manufactured and (b) what are the financial costs related
 to this; if so, what is the annual budget for these uniforms?
                   C268E

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Perhaps I should just address the House from here, Chair.

The answer to this question is that the uniforms of the members of the SA National Defence Force are manufactured in South Africa.

In regard to the question on the budget for the 2004-05 financial year, it is, as follows: SA Army – R64 293 615,06; SA Air Force – R13 998 42,27; and for the SA Military Health Service - R6 296 184,15. Really, the question was simply asking for that information. I table this information and I am not sure whether there are follow-up questions.

Ms L MOTLAHEALA: I need to ask the hon Minister this question: Are we not pro-South African when manufacturing things? Regarding the budget, would it not be profitable for South Africans if the uniforms were manufactured in South Africa?

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Perhaps I wasn’t very audible, I did start off by saying that the uniforms of the SA National Defence Force are manufactured in South Africa.

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Chairperson, I would like to know from the hon Minister whether the manufacturers of these uniforms are BEE companies?

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: In keeping with the transformation policy of government, in all areas of the National Defence Force, whether it’s the manufacture of weapons, acquisition of uniforms and so on, we have opened up space to try and keep up with the transformation dictates of policy. I do not have the breakdown but that is information I can make available if it is required. The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I am not going to ask a follow- up question but I want to propose, if it will be in order with your good self, that while the Minister is on the podium he should be allowed to respond to the other questions relating to his department. I think that will also save time in terms of shuffling.

Also, we should pardon the new member. I think we still owe her some orientation and we should treat her with understanding. The questions may have been given to her, and she will still insist on asking those questions even if they are not applicable.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Chief Whip, the questions are listed here on the Question Paper and I didn’t get a request from the Minister indicating that he is really in a hurry. I think we should take them as they are listed on the Question Paper. What I can allow is for the Minister to remain there because the next question comes to him again.

Regarding Question 2, the written reply will be distributed to the members and that is a request from the Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry.

      Supply of Calvinia’s domestic water from the Doring River

1. Mr K A Sinclair asked the Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry:

Whether her department is considering supplying Calvinia with water  for
domestic purposes from the Doring River; if not, why not;  if  so,  what
are the relevant details?                      C269E

Reply:

The problematic situation with water resources at Calvinia has received attention from the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry over a number of years. The most recent assistance was the R8,0 million my department secured for Calvinia from the 2004/05 Drought Relief Programme of National Government.

This funding is being utilised to extend the current borehole field to ensure a more sustainable water supply to Calvinia during periods of drought. This extension of access to nearby groundwater had been recommended by geo-hydrologists from my department as being at this stage the most feasible augmentation of the drought-related water shortages experienced in Calvinia.

It is also in line with departmental policy that the nearest water resources be utilised fully before moving further away to alternative resources, such as the Doring River in this instance.

The Calvinia community is a “water wise” community and can be commended on the ingenious methods they are already implementing in managing their scarce water resources. Other water-scarce areas can learn from the way in which surface water and groundwater are being utilised as a joint resource by Calvinia.

My reply to this question must therefore be seen against this background and perspective. Water in the Doring River can be made available to Calvinia as part of the basic human needs. The fact that the Doring River is about 60 km away from Calvinia, at its nearest point, will necessitate a full feasibility study to look at all the impacts, such as on the environment, operational demands and affordability, amongst others. The availability of the water is a given, but a decision on utilising it at this stage by pumping it to Calvinia will be guided by such a feasibility study. Previous preliminary studies indicated that it would be a very expensive option.

It is recommended that the Hantam Municipality, jointly with the Namaqua District Municipality, use their Water Services Development Plan (WSDP) and Integrated Development Plan (IDP) processes to try and access funds via the Special Municipal Infrastructure Fund (SMIF) programme of the Municipal Infrastructure Grant (MIG) for the purposes of such a study.

My department can also assist Calvinia through the implementation of a Water Conservation and Water Demand Management Strategy in the municipality. Through a pilot project at Emthanjeni (De Aar), a lot of lessons had been learned and major water savings were achieved in the area. Although recognising that Calvinia is already doing a lot regarding water conservation, there is always a possibility that more savings can be accomplished, thus delaying future water infrastructure development. The Department’s Regional Office in Kimberley will contact the Hantam Municipality with regard to actions on this.

The hon member’s concern with regard to the water situation at Calvinia is appreciated and I can assure the member that my department will fulfil its role in assuring the best long-term solution of the water-resources issue at Calvinia.

Mechanisms to address grievances of SANDF members in African countries

1. Mr A J L Moseki asked the Minister of Defence:

Whether his department has put any mechanisms in place immediately to
address grievances of the members of the SA National Defence Force
deployed in African countries; if not, why not; if so, what mechanisms?
                              C283E

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Chairperson, all members of the SA National Defence Force, including members employed in any environment outside the territory of the Republic of South Africa, enjoy the same access to the existing grievance and/or complaints procedure for members in uniform. Even though a member may be employed as part of the United Nations or African Union forces, those members are still to follow their respective lines of command within the specific South African contingent responsible for the mission area within which that member is employed.

The specific South African contingent, and not the UN or AU, is responsible for addressing a member’s grievance. There are provisions for addressing three kinds of grievances. Firstly, there is what we call collective grievances. This category of grievance is experienced collectively by a number of members often on a specific level of command, for example, among junior non-commissioned officers. This type of grievance normally has an influence on the effectiveness of a unit and therefore impacts on its morale. These grievances can and should be raised at various forum levels ranging from the level of unit officer commanding, the formation level, the service division or agency level up to the Chief of the SA National Defence Force.

The timeframe for feedback on issues forwarded by the relevant forum ranges between seven days, at the shortest, and 42 working days, which is the longest period members would have to wait to get a reply. The explanation is, as follows: Where a grievance can be solved on the same level, we ought to be able to respond to it within seven days. If a grievance is beyond the unit commander where they are stationed, it may have to go to the next level or even two levels up. That, of course, will increase the number of days. But at the longest, in 42 working days we should be able to produce a satisfactory reply to any complaint.

There is then, of course, a second category of complaints and these are work-related grievances. This category of grievances refers to work- related, non-personal frustrations experienced by individuals in the work environment on a daily basis. This type of grievance cannot be solved by the forum system and must be individually addressed within the line-of- command structure. Thus it gets referred to the immediate supervisor, then the unit officer commanding, the formation level, the service level, the division level or the agency level, and thereafter it goes to the chief. The aim is initially to resolve a grievance at the lowest possible level, but if it seems to be impossible, to address the matter at the next level within the line of command. Every level within the line of command must respond satisfactorily to grievances forwarded to that level within a timeframe ranging between seven and 14 days, depending on the level. An important part of this system is to ensure that the aggrieved member is informed in writing of every outcome at a certain level or decision and to forward the matter to the next higher level in the line of command. Then there is a third level of grievances, which is personal grievances. The “redress of wrongs” procedure is a unique remedy in terms of the military disciplinary code and is applicable to any member of the SANDF who feels aggrieved by the conduct of another person also subject to the military disciplinary code. This is primarily a legal process instituted to solve disputes among soldiers in their specialised environment.

As with work-related grievances, again, the aim is initially to resolve the grievance at the lowest possible level, but if it seems to be impossible, to then address the matter at the next level within the line of command. If the Chief of the SA National Defence Force is unable to redress the wrong or satisfy the complainant, the complaint can be forwarded to the President of the Republic, as a final resort.

Actually, I have to say that we are in the process of amending this because, clearly, it was an error on the part of the legislation, in our view, to take daily matters of management, bypass the Minister and place them on the table of the President of the Republic, who has so many responsibilities. So the process of amending that particular section is on the way. On this point, specifically, we are in the process of review since we are not convinced that the President needs to be burdened with matters such as this.

Each level within the chain of command is governed by a timeframe of 10 working days, within which a satisfactory resolution must be provided. As with work-related grievances, the aggrieved member must be informed in writing of every outcome at a certain level or decision to forward the matter to the next level in the chain of command.

The grievance mechanism has been under scrutiny for some time and we have effected a number of changes which, whilst not altering the concept of a special disciplinary code for members of the SA National Defence Force, are nevertheless fair and impartial – since we are aware that there is little value to a justice system if it is perceived to be unfair.

We will continue making adjustments to the system until we are certain that the SA National Defence Force will continue to be structured and managed as a disciplined military force, whilst equally balancing individual members’ constitutional rights to fair labour practices. An effective line of command, including the ability to address individual grievances, is vital in maintaining a disciplined SA National Defence Force capable of assisting in South Africa’s resolve to pursue peace and stability, and, of course, to provide the security of our nation. That is my reply to the second part of the question.

Mr A J L MOSEKI: Chair, Minister, I would just like to say thank you very much for the response. Indeed, recently, we visited the DRC and interacted with the forces that are deployed in that country. We have discovered that the grievances we picked up in the past are being attended to. I therefore thank you very much, Minister, for doing a good job.

         Remission of sentences and negligence of officials

1. Mr A T Manyosi asked the Minister of Correctional Services:

Whether any inmates received remission of  their  sentences  which  they
were not entitled to; if so, (a) how did it happen and (b)  how  is  his
department going to correct the situation;
Whether any officials will be held accountable for  negligence  in  this
regard; if  not,  why  not,  if  so,  what  are  the  relevant  details?
                                          C284E

Reply:

1. According to information at my disposal, only one (1) offender was released erroneously following the incorrect allocation of special remission of sentence.

(a) The offender, who was serving an effective sentence of six (6) years imprisonment for multiple offences, including possession of a firearm and ammunition, qualified for a reduction of only six (6) months of his sentence but was released on parole following the incorrect allocation of an additional 14 months special remission (he was therefore accredited with 20 months instead of 6 months).

(b) Section 39 (6)(a) of the Correctional Services Act, 1998 (Act No 111 of 1998) provides for the issuing of a warrant for the re-arrest of an offender who was erroneously released. In this specific case the parole period of the relevant offender was prolonged with fourteen (14) months in order to correct the mistake.

1. The officials involved were disciplined by means of a written warning, following an investigation to establish, amongst others, factors which led to the erroneous release, negligence of officials, degree of failure to adhere to directives, recommendations pertaining to steps to be taken against officials implicated during the investigation, preventive measures to be taken and steps to ensure that procedures are adhered to.

   Skills development and its efficacy in the Department of Defence

2. Mr A J L Moseki asked the Minister of Defence:

Whether there is any skills-development programme in his department; if
not, when will the department start with such a programme; if so, how
effective is this programme?              C285E The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Chairperson, the response to this question is: Yes, the Department of Defence does have a skills-development programme. The DoD’s human-resource programme is the flagship programme for addressing the high-level management concept to configure the DoD’s human-resource composition in the most effective, efficient and economical way.

The execution of human resource 2010 has been supported by the promulgation of the Department of Defence management strategy. This strategy guides the DoD with respect to human-resource governance and structuring, human- resource management capacity generation, human-resource service delivery, human-resource force preparation and human-resource operational conduct, as well as human-resource management system renewal and continuous improvement.

In addition, the military skills-development system was initiated in 2003 with an intake of 981 members into the SA National Defence Force. The intakes for 2004 and 2005 grew to 1 834 and 6 899 members respectively. I may just add that we are hoping that at the peak of this we should be able to do an intake of 10 000 a year and inject into society approximately the same number of 10 000 trained men and women who go back to society with skills that are usable in civilian life.

This growth is indicative of the success of the military skills-development system, which is focused on the rejuvenation of the SA National Defence Force and development of a professional officer cadre. The military skills development system is part of the DoD’s human-resource strategy 2010, which has as one of its objectives to have a skilled workforce.

The military skills-development programme is a recruitment drive aimed at matriculants, who, upon admission, will enter the National Defence Force and undergo basic military training for a period of two years, after which they may either exit the National Defence Force to reintegrate back into society or they can remain within the National Defence Force if they meet the SANDF requirements and if they choose to be professional military persons.

Mr A J L MOSEKI: Chair, could the Minister just allude to the role of the Seta? Is the Seta, in those sectors, playing the role that it is expected to play?

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Chairperson, there is no specific role for the Seta. Nevertheless we have, since last year, initiated discussions with the Seta, so that part of the resources that are budgeted for by Cabinet for the training of young people can also be employed in this area, because we have found that in certain areas you find that there are no available facilities for the training to happen. So, we make ourselves available and collaborate with Labour so that, whilst through the Seta they finance the training, this also presents us with an opportunity to expose ourselves by supplying facilities, but also being able to identify some of those young men and women whom we may want to persuade to join the National Defence Force. So, there is this collaboration that is happening.

I might just add that we are also in discussion in this regard with the Department of Education to see how we can expand this kind collaboration so that there is general training of young people. What we are doing in the National Defence Force complements what is being done in Education and Labour, and what is being done there complements what we are doing in the area of national defence. Thank you, Sir.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, I want to thank the Minister for the response. Hon Minister, does this imply that those force members who, in our opinion, have reached a ceiling, and who belong to the old guard, cannot be reskilled or given training of some kind?

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Chairperson, I appreciate that question because, indeed, it’s an important one. No, it does not mean this. We have men and women, particularly those that came from the non-statutory forces, who, because of various reasons, including age, in particular, are now at the point of exiting. It is our responsibility to support their training and skilling so that they are able to integrate into society. But it has become increasingly clear to us that the most effective and beneficial point to focus on, as much as possible, is the entry point.

The young people who are finishing matric have many years of life ahead of them. We can train them and they can benefit the National Defence Force. Even if they go back to civilian society, they go with skills and have a greater capacity to contribute in terms of general upliftment and development in the country. This seems to us a crucial area to focus on.

Another point is that the non-statutory forces were a finite number, whereas the numbers of young people that need to get the opportunity of training are many and are continuously growing.

So, if this strategy is focusing on that, it is because there is more benefit for the country to invest in the training of its younger people because of the numbers that are involved and the years that the country can benefit from the training that you will have to put into those young people. But we remain quite obliged to look after the old guard. Thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, Minister. Before we proceed to the next question, I would just like to remind the House that the time for reply per question is five minutes, and that the time for responding to supplementary questions is four minutes. We allow only four supplementary questions per question, and members who want to ask supplementary questions have two minutes to do that.

    Progress in acceleration of transformation in justice system

1. Mr S Shiceka asked the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:

Whether her  department  has  made  any  progress  in  accelerating  the
transformation of the justice system; if not, why not; if so,  what  are
the relevant details?                                      C286E

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chair, the question is whether the department has made any progress in accelerating the transformation of the justice system. The response is: Yes, but obviously to varying degrees.

The concept of transformation is an area of fierce contestation in our country, politically and otherwise. Transformation means different things to different people. If you were to ask 10 people what their views were regarding transformation, you would receive 10 different responses. So, it is necessary for the department to briefly say what is meant by transformation.

Transformation is the legal and political mechanism whereby this country is changing or transforming itself from an undemocratic, white dictatorship to a modern democracy. Therefore, when we talk about transformation, we mean the change or transformation of the institution, the values that underpin it, the procedures and the personnel of the justice system.

In other words, we mean the transformation of all the aspects of the justice system, from what we had under the apartheid regime to what one would expect in a modern democracy.

In this context, the changing of the composition of the judiciary and the magistracy to reflect the demographics of our country is but one aspect of transformation, albeit a very important aspect. This is what is called “diversity transformation”. But what one should not lose sight of is the institutional, procedural and values transformation of the system as well. The institutional memory of the justice system is one that mainly fits an apartheid paradigm and it should change to an institutional memory which reflects such modern democracy.

Against this background, there are a number of initiatives that are being taken by the department to accelerate the transformation process. After extensive consultations and dialogue with the judiciary and other legal experts, the department has managed to process two Bills emanating from the Portfolio Committee on Justice, which are crucial to the transformation of the courts, namely the Constitution 14th Amendment Bill and the Superior Courts Bill.

The Bills are now before Cabinet and will be returned to Parliament for further processing soon. These Bills will signify the demise of the last remnants of the old judicial system, which was based on the homeland and self-governing states, and establish in its place a judicial system that is consistent with the Constitution and in which all people of South Africa are treated equally.

Discussions on the three Bills dealing with the complaints-handling mechanisms for judicial officers are at an advanced stage and the legislation emanating from Parliament will soon be returned to Parliament for further processing.

The drafting of the Legal Services Charter, which seeks to enhance access to the legal practice and institutions within the sector for previously disadvantaged persons, and the initiation of a special programme to fast- track the appointment of women to judicial positions at the High Courts, are some of the immediate programmes which aim to accelerate diversity transformation of the sector. I thank you.

Mr S SHICEKA: Chair, Deputy Minister, can you say that the judiciary, as we speak, is upholding the values and the norms of a democratic state in terms of ensuring that all are equal before the law; so that people who have committed the same offences get the same sentences when sentences are meted out? What happened in the past was that people were sentenced differently, based on race and colour. Can you say that that has changed? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chair, that is a very complex and difficult question, and if I want to be popular tomorrow in the newspaper with the vast majority of South African citizens, I’ll know how to answer this question. [Laughter.] But I’m going to be much more diplomatic.

I think that we have to realise that there is a separation of powers. Judicial officers form a separate branch of government and their specific task is to interpret legislation and to give judgments.

Now the big problem, and this is what we forget, is that each human being, including judges, who are just ordinary people like you and me - although they have particular training in being a lawyer and are senior at that - carry all the baggage that any other person carries with him or her; all that baggage that Johnny De Lange carries with him: Where he comes from, where he’s been and where he’s going. [Laughter.] It is exactly the same with the judiciary. So, in other words, when you are appearing before a judge or a magistrate, they obviously look at you, although they are trained lawyers, they look at you through a certain prism, through a certain looking glass. And they obviously assess you on the basis of the way they view the world. Now the problem is that they may very well be very genuine in their intentions. They may very well feel that they are not being particularly biased or that they are being neutral about what they are doing, but clearly they are not. No human being can be like that. So to that extent there is always difficulty with this issue, namely whether I will feel that I would have given the same judgment and the same sentence as another person. That will always differ.

The only way to deal with this is to do what we are trying to do now, namely to really keep training and training. That way people will become more and more professional in what they do. Obviously, the higher you move up the system, hopefully, the more professional you will get. The response of those higher up in the system to a given set of facts should be more “neutral”.

But that again is not something that one can say, categorically, is so. All I can say is that we have to do what we say, which is to transform that judicial system to make sure that the value base is different, that diversity is reflected in that and out of that to then speed up our judicial training processes to bring people to certain levels of professionalism. I mean every one and not one particular group. That is my polite and diplomatic answer to it.

But the reality is that the less professional a person is, the more likely that the judgment will be coloured by factors other than legal factors. So if you are racist, for example, deep in your heart, and you don’t tell every one about it, then clearly in your judgments that will come out and you will find ways of couching things in legal terms, yet you will be coming up with different responses than a normal person or the average person would have come up with.

And I think that the only thing that we can do is to keep on teaching and giving education and trying to lift the levels of professionalism to try and counterbalance these things that are still happening in our country to this very day.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, I want to thank the Deputy Minister for the progressive response. Arising from the Minister’s response, what can be done to remove the myth perpetuated by some unpatriotic South Africans who think that transformation means to remove a white skin and replace it with a black skin? Thank you, Chair.

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chair, that has never been the policy of government. If you go and look at the various pieces of legislation we passed, particularly around equity, then clearly that does not spell out the principles as we understand them. And in fact, if one were to do that as crudely as you are saying, namely by replacing people, it will definitely be unconstitutional.

But the problem clearly is that we do have an enormous problem and that is that on the diversity side, clearly our structures do not reflect what is in this country. But the one thing that we must be careful about, and government has been very careful to emphasise this all the time, is that merely replacing a white person with a black person does not necessarily fulfil what we would want it to fulfil. It fulfils the diversity criteria, but the issue of values is also very important.

When we appoint black lawyers to the judiciary, clearly what is very important, over and above the fact of their demographics, which is important, and the diversity issues, are the values that they stand for. In fact, our struggle was not to go and replace people on the bench that would have values that are completely out of sync with our Constitution. So, the people that we would want to appoint should also have such value systems so that what they would want to promote on the bench is what is in our Constitution.

In a nutshell, what we are saying is that diversity transformation has two aspects to it: It has the diversity aspect, whether it is black people or women or the disabled whom we are trying to promote; and on the other hand, in the judiciary, the values that are underpinned in the Constitution. We want those people, whether they are black, white, pink or purple, in order to promote those values.

And it is in promoting those values that there is still a place for whites in this country to fulfil a role in the judiciary. In other words, a white person can be a transformation candidate if they very strongly promote those things that stand in the Constitution. And I think that that is the balance, although it’s a very difficult balance to find. But it is a balance that is very vital for us to maintain.

         Monitoring of judicial officers’ time on the Bench

1. Mr S Shiceka asked the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:

Whether her department will monitor the time spent by judicial  officers
on the bench; if not, why not; if so, what  are  the  relevant  details?
                                    C287E

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, whether the department will monitor the time spent by judicial officers on the bench, again one has to be careful here.

The response is that the department has established a mechanism through the Court Nerve Centre to measure the performance of the courts and the measures we take into account is for the different benchmarks which are necessary to assess court productivity, such as time spend in courts, case cycle times and the rate at which cases are disposed of, and the quality of services and judgments delivered by the courts.

The department is also creating an administrative capacity in the offices of the Chief Justice and the Judges Presidents to support the process of monitoring performance of courts to ensure that judicial resources are used optimally.

A legislative framework is also being put in place to allow the Chief Justice and the heads of courts to set norms and standards for the effective functioning of the courts.

Mr S SHICEKA: Deputy Minister, is there any plan or thinking that looks at what is practice in this country; that people who are paid out of the taxpayers’ money must be measured on their performance as individuals, meaning that at some point in this country we will be able to say that the judicial officers are measured in terms of their performance and we will enter into a performance contract with them?

In this way we would be able to ensure that there is productivity. You don’t just look only at the institution, but you also look at individuals who are actually part of that institution, because you find that in some areas the way things happen, judicial officers are not performing in the way that would be expected by this country.

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, this is a very complex issue. Clearly, there is the necessity for us to make sure that the courts function properly and if they function properly, then clearly they have to be effective and efficient.

The last figures I saw were not exactly what one would want to see; I think High Courts were sitting for about three and a half hours a day on average in criminal matters. Regional courts and districts courts were slightly higher.

So, if you take that most of us work an eight-hour day, then clearly the reflection of those kinds of statistics is not very good. Although I must say that over the years, that time has been improving and that is something we have to look at.

But as we try to point out on the question, there are a whole lot of things we have to look at. One of them is the amount of time spent. There are also things like cycle time. How long does it take a case actually to get to court and actually be finished? In the High Court at the moment, I think, for a criminal matter, you will wait for something like at least 18 months to two years for the case to get to court and then it only starts.

So, the issue is not just time spent in court on that particular case, but it is also cycle times and so on. There is a whole host of factors that we have to look at, and not just time in court, to deal with this.

The other difficulty, of course, particularly with the High Courts and the district courts, is that some of their work is criminal, but there is also a whole lot of civil work. In this country, could you believe it, we still do not have proper statistics on civil work. So, it is difficult to assess. So, that is why we have created this Court Nerve Centre and we are busy expanding its capacity to get full figures for us, not only on criminal work and on all these issues I am raising but also on civil work.

The issue of performance contracts is very sensitive. If you mention that in the area of judicial officers, you will really have an uproar, as there was one or two years ago. However, I think it is something we need to debate because, as I was reading recently, I understand that in Australia they have now introduced performance contracts.

So, it depends on how we do it and how we take up this debate. But if you were just to mention it now, particularly in the environment we have, you would definitely get some hysterics about it. There can be no doubt.

But I think what we have to emphasise is the fact that the courts can’t just be seen as a hands-off situation anymore. There has to be a level at which we expect them to perform. What our duty is, is to provide them with the resources and all the means to do their job and then we should expect that they should be a certain result, whatever that result is, we agree amongst ourselves, without spelling it out now.

So I think that there is a long way for us to go but the situation is improving.

                   Retraining of judicial officers

1. Kgoshi L M Mokoena asked the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:

   Whether there is a need for the retraining of judicial officers; if so, how will this process be carried out? C288E

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I am really earning my salary today. Whether there is a need for the retraining of judicial officers – now, the word is “retraining”, so again there is a bit of sensitivity here - judicial education is crucial for the transformation of the judiciary and it is a tool through which a pool of particularly adequate black and female practitioners can be prepared for judicial appointments to rectify the historical deficiencies we have.

Processes are under way to institutionalise training for judges and magistrates. While magistrates continue to obtain training of some sort, though not adequate, historically it is known that judges were opposed to any training intervention because they argued that since judges were drawn from the senior counsel pool, it was not necessary for them to go for any further training.

The attitude has changed, particularly after the appointment of the first black Chief Justice, the late Justice Mahomed, when he assumed leadership of the judicial roll. There is now a general acceptance by judges that continued training is necessary, especially in respect of scarce skills, for example in commercial law, law of competition, patent law and so on.

With the advent of the human-rights culture, there is a greater need to have social-context training for all judicial officers to understand the social and cultural context of the people they serve and I dare say that I think there is a great level of acceptance of that concept.

The exact mechanisms of the institutionalising of judicial education for judges and magistrates are being finalised and will be announced in due course. In the meantime Justice College is being revamped to provide legal and management training to legal professionals and managers within the broader justice family.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, I want to thank the Minister for this response. There are different opinions by judicial officers as to who must conduct this training. Would the Minister care to comment on that, please?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I think there is no dispute about that. I don’t think government has ever said that we must do the judicial training of judges. It is best practice all over the world that judges really do train themselves.

This is a question of us interacting and making sure that those programmes are being performed and that they take place in the different areas. But as to who does the training, what is in the curriculum and so on, that to a large extent we have accepted, as it is the best practise elsewhere, that it should be the preserve of the judges. Of course, in terms of the administration thereof, and the provision of facilities and so on and so on, that will remain a departmental function. But the substance of the training and what people are trained in, and by whom they are trained; definitely there is no dispute about that. For example, you will never see Johnny De Lange going and being the lecturer to train judges on what they should know and not know. That would not happen. That is not our policy.

Mr M A MZIZI: Chairperson, in response to the Deputy Minister’s question, if the training of judicial officers is to be monitored, who determines that this judicial officer must now go or undergo training, or it is them requesting that they should go for training? Otherwise, if there is no mechanism, then there will be those who would actually dodge this and not go for the training.

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, it is a good question. There are two models. In some countries of the world it is compulsory for you to receive judicial training. At this stage in our discussions and the debates we had, the feeling is that we should keep it voluntary.

So, maybe what we should be doing is moving in that direction, but if it doesn’t work and if it’s clear that some judicial officers feel that they should not receive training, particularly social-context training, I feel that it should be compulsory. But I think what we would probably do is move in a direction where there is a level of latitude, that people are given a chance to make those choices. If that clearly doesn’t work, we will have to consider a model that is very widely known in the rest of the world, and that is compulsory legal education. But at this stage, as far as I know, we are still going with the voluntary model.

Mr Z C NTULI: Thank you, Chairperson. Deputy Minister, I want to find out whether there is any training for the traditional leaders to man the traditional courts.

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, that is another difficult question and I have to handle it sensitively. [Laughter.] Now, as far as I know, I am not sure if there is formalised training at this stage, but I do know that there are two pieces of legislation for consideration to look further at this matter and then, as I said, Justice College is being revamped and everything we do with that college is to formalise in the whole justice sector that all training takes place there.

I definitely will make sure that this issue is at least considered at that stage. But I am not aware of any formal training that takes place at this stage.

Mr S SHICEKA: Chairperson, I promise the Deputy Minister that this is the last question that he will have this afternoon. The question that I want to raise, Deputy Minister, is on the level of interface between government and the judicial officers in terms of the imperatives of the country to say that these are the needs that we think the country has in terms of its vision and its values so that the training then, in terms of the content, is within that context which the state or the government in particular understands.

What would be the level of interface because the public discourse, as it is currently raging out there, is that government must be hands off in respect of training. Nothing must come from government and judicial officers must be there themselves - even the context must come from them.

Can you explain the level of interface and the induction that will be there as it has been envisaged?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I must actually ask the Minister to come and answer the questions - the difficult ones are in the NCOP. [Laughter.] I think that you are right and that from the judiciary’s side there is a very strong push that they should decide the whole curriculum and all aspects thereof.

But, as I said, we are still engaging with these issues because there are models in the rest of the world where what I said just now is correct, where the actual training is undertaken by judicial officers and the way they deal with it is done by judicial officers, but that when they sit and at least spell out what should be in the curriculum, that forum is a little bit wider than just the judiciary.

There are other models like that; please, I am not saying we are considering that or something, I am just saying there are models like that at this stage. But the feeling here is very strong – and we have been told regularly - that clearly we will be intervening, crossing that elusive line called the separation of powers. It is something like quicksand that moves a lot, but that debate, I think, is an ongoing one and we should make some space for it to take place.

I think the models in some parts of the world, where one has some interaction on what should be in the curriculum, is in very democratic states in the world and there is not a complete exclusion of government at least saying something like that. But at this stage, what is still the preferred model from the judiciary is, hands off.

                Child protection services of the SAPS

1. Ms F Nyanda asked the Minister of Safety and Security:

Whether the child protection services are effective; if not,  what  will
the SA Police Service do to improve the situation?         C289E The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, our child protection services are working very well and are as effective as is possible under the circumstances. I am saying this because there are weaknesses and some bumps regarding the system. Of course, our members – as will be understood by the hon members here, including hon Nyanda – do not turn everything they touch into gold, like the mythical king Midas did. There are weaknesses but, overall, I am giving them a very good mark. I thank you.

Ms F NYANDA: Hon Minister, can you give us or describe to us a picture of this effectiveness? I thank you.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: The first thing I would like to do is to explain that our child protection services fall under what we term, in the police, the family violence, child protection and sexual offences unit. That’s the entire establishment that deals with matters like these and are responsible therefore, among other things, for the investigation of rape, incest, indecent assault, kidnapping, abduction and sexual exploitation. They use, for purposes of such investigations, laws like the Sexual Offences Act, the Prevention of Family Violence Act, the Domestic Violence Act and, of course, the Films and Publications Act, which is administered by the Department of Home Affairs – and as it relates, therefore, to things such as child pornography.

Regarding effectiveness in terms of investigations, if, for instance, we were to consider the annual report of the SA Police Service for 2004-05, we would see that during that period they handled 60 429 cases. Those cases were made up of the following aspects: there were 5 867 enquiries, just enquiries, relating to these crimes; of course, 54 562 dockets were opened. We arrested 27 707 suspects relating to this. These matters, therefore, were taken to court.

It is instructive to look at what then happened in court. We were able to finalise in our courts 1 383 of those cases. But, with regard to sentences, among those who were sentenced, for instance, those who visited sexual offences against children were 177. Those who accosted elderly people were

1. This gives a total of 219 people who were convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment.

Now, to me, this is not a big thing, with respect to what they do, because the cases that I have referred to are defined as social crimes, which are very difficult to investigate using purely conventional policing methods. So it is very difficult to deal with these cases. As you are aware, these children who are raped - at the best of times - are molested by their uncles, grandpas, including their own fathers in some instances. These crimes happen behind closed doors and it becomes very difficult, therefore, to investigate them. Thus, what members of these units have done is to interact with people, educating and mobilising them. And these many cases that we dealt with were cases that indicate the success of that project because people are now coming forward and are reporting these types of crimes to the police. That is why I say, overall, I give them a mark that indicates the excellent work that they have been doing.

Mr M A MZIZI: Chairperson, Minister, given the fact that some of these cases are indeed difficult to investigate, what are the success rates of conviction, given the fact that some of these cases may have happened probably some time ago and such matters may not have been reported; and when things developed, the individuals concerned may have thought, “I can now go and report the case”? How do the police treat those cases?

The MINISTER FOR SAFETY AND SECURITY: I am quite happy with the outcome in our courts regarding the cases, particularly these that I am referring to, for the period 2004-05, because this compares favourably with what is happening internationally. And, in fact, there are many countries – older democracies among them – where our performance is better than they have been able to achieve. Therefore I am quite happy with what is happening.

But when you look at only one financial year, 2004-05, and you look at figures like this, that is 1 383 people who were convicted . . . Let’s just look at their conviction. Those people are serving 13 760 years. That’s what they are serving. I am not talking about 219 people who are serving life sentences - just for the period over 12 months that I am talking about. In other words, I am personally quite happy with the result, relevant to the work that we do around these questions. Thank you.

Mr E M SOGONI: Thank you, hon Minister, for the comprehensive answers. With regard to paedophiles, I would like to know whether the department has a view in terms of what it is that needs to be done to stop this kind of crime. For instance, there is a debate out there whether to publicise their names or not. Has the department, perhaps, established a view in terms of the policy that it would take to discourage this kind of action? Thank you.

The MINISTER FOR SAFETY AND SECURITY: When I was occupying the position that he now occupies, at Home Affairs, I came to this question. Indeed, you are correct when you say there is a raging debate out there, not only in terms of South Africa but also in many countries, including the leading democracies of the world. And we are not finding an answer to this. I will tell you why we are not.

It is because, at one level, we are dealing with people who have been convicted as a consequence of their activities, paedophilia. There are people who argue therefore that these people have already paid for that crime. When you go and put them on a register, it means that you are now sentencing them a second time. There are people who are arguing like that. But it is not a matter for the department and, fortunately, I have one of my commissioners here, Deputy National Commissioner Singh. These things are located in her section. But she can’t have a personal opinion on this, and the police, as a structure, cannot have a personal opinion.

But who should have a personal opinion; and who should actually pilot any law that relates to this? It is all of us who are sitting here, rather than these structures. Let’s discuss the matter and see what happens. But, as I say, one of the big things, and I am sure this is going to affect us as we discuss it, is the fact that we have a Constitution. And, as I say, there is this particular problem: Can you punish a person perpetually? That matter has arisen as one of the problems relevant to this matter. Thank you.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, thanks to the Minister for the response. Hon Minister, we tried, as public representatives and committee members who serve in the committee that deals with this department. But what message can you send, hon Minister, to those lunatics or monsters that think that by raping our children they would get cured of Aids?

The MINISTER FOR SAFETY AND SECURITY: The message ought to be the same with respect to anybody who commits these dastardly crimes: That where they belong is behind the prison gates of our detention facilities. That is where they belong. But it is also a matter that our integrated justice system is beginning to discuss, because we want to ascertain that as people are arrested, who particularly are involved in crimes of this nature, they must be dealt with fully, in terms of the law. Quite soon, we are going to pass the Child Justice Bill, which is before Parliament. I am sure you as members of Parliament, including you in this House, will assist us to do this. When we have done that, it is going to empower us further to deal with matters of this nature.

However, that is only one side of the coin. The other side of the coin is that our people, the parents, must look well after their children. There are many instances where children are left alone – infants left alone by parents. At times they are left completely alone and on other occasions are left in the care of other small children. These problems arise as a consequence. Therefore let us appeal to all parents to look well after their children. Let us appeal to the general community to assist in ensuring that that actually happens, as part and parcel of the traditions we grew up embracing, so that we do not have these types of problems. I thank you.

                  SAPS skills development programme

1. Mr Z C Ntuli asked the Minister for Safety and Security:

 (1)    Whether his department has any skills development programme;  if
       not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;


 (2)    whether the programme is successful; if not,  why  not,  if  so,
       what are the relevant details?                           C290E

The MINISTER FOR SAFETY AND SECURITY: Yebo, baba uNtuli. [Yes, Mr Ntuli]. We do have a skills development programme. Apart from that we have what is called a workplace skills plan, which guides the implementation of all training interventions within the organisation.

As far as the last part of your question is concerned, I do wish to say that indeed it is a successful programme. Regarding the training, we are implementing this as it has been planned. We have quarterly reports, which are generated as part and parcel of the workplace skills plan. Our impact assessment, which we do on training, indicates that it is working very positively. I thank you.

Mr Z C NTULI: Thank you, Chairperson. Can the hon Minister specify in what fields interventions are developing members?

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: We believe that these awards are important because they point to the core of our business. Therefore our training is designed to deal particularly with those matters; for instance, as they relate to crime prevention. This is because we want to prevent crime from happening.

I am sure you are aware that this is one of the things that we are doing. We have not done it throughout the country. At the moment we are concentrating on areas where the crime levels are higher than in the rest of the country. We have started deploying sector police in sectors that have been carefully identified.

Some of these sector police are already working with our people on the ground. There is the detective service, in other words, investigations; if we fail there and do not have people who are highly trained in investigative work, we are not going to make a mark in as far as dealing with crime is concerned.

Let me say that we are proud of the fact that already, given the fact that people are recognising the high levels of our training, we are helping the rest of the African continent with respect to their own investigators who have been receiving training in South Africa. We go abroad to help them with their training. Therefore our training is of a very high quality. There is crime intelligence and generally, this has been publicly admitted to, our crime intelligence is amongst the best in the world and we have received that commendation from many people, including Interpol itself.

As far as operational response is concerned, we must say this because it is part of the truth of our history: South Africa has the best people. Do you know why? It is because in the past, the police trained on us. In other words, we were the people who were providing them with the necessary wherewithal to be able to do their work. Therefore they were able to hone their abilities on the basis of their attempt to try to stifle our liberation struggle.

Hence, even now, we continue to provide the best training with respect to operational response. Of course, with regard to protection and security services, you can ask the Minister of Education if she is happy with the people who are protecting her. You can also ask these Deputy Ministers and other Ministers who are here. They will tell you that they have a very good protection and security service.

They are not only close protectors but are also responsible for static protection and for protecting our national key points. It is not only that, they are also protecting very important visitors to South Africa, including heads of state from other countries and so on. There is basic police and management and generic training that is taking place. It is part and parcel of these things, but there are those specifics that are part and parcel of the interventions that we are talking about.

Mr S SHICEKA: Chairperson, I have a follow-up question to the Minister. I can must safely say that he is a custodian of the police. You can tell by the way he is responding to the issues that there are no challenges. He is responding very well. The area of importance that I want to focus upon is around recruitment and targeting of women, particularly as detectives and also as intelligence officers. I think if that can be done, this country can achieve a lot in terms of preventing and combating crime.

Is there any focus on those two areas that is accelerated to ensure that they come in numbers in the skills development?

The MINISTER FOR SAFETY AND SECURITY: I have been reminded by the Chief Whip that our protection and security services also protect members of the NCOP when they take Parliament to the people. [Laughter.] These are not things that I am saying simply because I am in charge of the police, you have seen it at work yourselves. They protect you when you go and interact with the people on the ground.

Many years ago, there was an argument that many of us made in our other life; where it was only men of our liberation army who were being infiltrated into the country and not many women. We used to say that if you want people who will easily infiltrate, collect information and therefore intelligence, it is women. Let’s send women into the country to do this. We picked it up from the history of the Algerian struggle for freedom because there they used women. The security police were not paying too much attention to women. [Interjections.][Laughter.]

I am not going to repeat what you are saying. [Laughter.] This is still the attitude of quite a number of people who are in the police, including the Deputy National Commissioner I referred to. They are doing something else there. They have established something that they refer to as a network. They say it is a women’s network. But that thing is so powerful that people like the National Commissioner may think that at some point these women will simply take over every aspect of our divisions in the police.

Let me tell you something, on the entire globe, ours is the only police service that has the highest level of representation by women. We are now standing at 28% - there it is. Last year I said that we were standing at 26% but now it is 28%. Is Sweden number 14 or 16? They have moved up to 18 and that is number two after us. Look at that gap.

This is not only because we have trained for the first time in South Africa one of the most effective special forces units in the police – women only. They went through the same rigorous training as men do. They obtained a higher pass rate than what we have found over the years amongst men. Therefore there are changes that are happening with respect to this matter. You are going to be seeing these units of women. At some point, when we conduct raids – here in the Western Cape - I am going to invite some members of the portfolio committee.

When we mount raids, you must see how many women participate as members of the area crime combating units. As I said, the training is the same. We have nothing like training for men and training for women. Even in terms of that, there is a clear change with respect to how we are developing a modern police service within our democratic dispensation. I thank you.

                     Amnesty on illegal firearms

1. Kgoshi L M Mokoena asked the Minister for Safety and Security:

 Whether the amnesty on  illegal  firearms  has  achieved  its  intended
 objectives; if not, why not; if so,  what  are  the  relevant  details?
                                    C291E

The MINISTER FOR SAFETY AND SECURITY: Thank you very much for according me this opportunity, particularly because he should listen. All of these people I am talking about belong to his institution, so he must know the numbers that I am dealing with.

Kgoshi Mokoena, ke ya leboga, ntate. [Chief Mokoena, thank you.]

The amnesty that we declared with respect to firearms worked very well. The aim, as you know, was to reduce the number of illegal firearms in circulation in South Africa, given that it is these illegal firearms that are used in serious and violent crimes in our country. The amnesty was meant for people in possession of illegal firearms to hand them in without fear of being prosecuted for illegal possession thereof. Thank you.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chair, I would like to thank the hon Minister for the calculated response. Hon Minister, can you give us a figure that speaks to what you described as a successful project?

The MINISTER FOR SAFETY AND SECURITY: I want to remind hon members what we are talking about here. We are talking about an amnesty period that started on 1 January this year and extended to the end of June. In other words, we are talking about six months. In these six months, we did what we had never been able to do, not during our term of office and not during the previous term of office, in terms of firearms we collected as a consequence of the amnesty that was in place.

But it’s not only that. Let me also remind hon members that we even collected pieces that were not strictly part and parcel of this process but which human beings who are peace-loving people ought not to carry. Just recently, about a week ago, I saw an article of a person who was arrested. Among illegal weapons he had was a mortar. I think I described to you a while back what a mortar does. For instance, if they were to target this building and the mortar hits the roof, I don’t know how many of us would survive that attack. A mortar is defined as a small canon, in military terms. So when you have a mortar you have a small canon.

Now, what private individual would want to carry or keep a mortar? What is it for? But we were able to get mortars from people. We were able to get bombs during the amnesty period. Again, you ask: Why would a South African be keeping a bomb? Why would they keep those types of things? There were grenades and quite a number of things.

But with respect to the weapons, the firearms themselves, in those six months we were able to collect 33 823 illegal firearms. We had never done this at any stage before the amnesty, whether during our term, as I say, or during the past. In six months we had never been able to collect that amount of firearms through confiscations and through the amnesty system.

Apart from that, there are South Africans who came forward and said, “We no longer want to keep these firearms. Even though they are not illegal, and even though we have licences for them, we want the police to take them.” Those were 46 631 and that’s a lot of firearms. This means that it’s more than 80 000 that we were able to collect.

I don’t know what we are going to do after this. But to us, that amnesty period worked and it worked very well. There is another country that has done this: Brazil also declared amnesty and people handed these things in. The difference between Brazil and us is that in Brazil - and this is an argument that some were making in South Africa as well - they said, “Look, there is a dump there; just go and throw this thing there”. We could have done the same thing in South Africa but we were confronted by this political question: If you do such a thing, what about the possibility that this firearm that we say must just be thrown clandestinely into the dump may have killed families of people? How are we going to respond to those families that have lost their loved ones as a result of this firearm if we simply say to people just throw it off there? We therefore were confronted by that political question.

We have not as yet been able to respond to that political question. Therefore, in our case we said, “Just hand this thing in.” And we said to people that it is better for you to face that consequence of a possibility that you will be prosecuted. But what will speak in your favour is the fact that you yourself understand that there were outstanding issues regarding the firearm that you handed in; and that still you said: “No, let me hand it in. It does not matter what happens to me later on.” That would, at least, speak for you in court rather than for us to find that firearm on our own because your circumstances would therefore be different and harsher.

Mr M A MZIZI: Chairperson, Minister, I think the exercise of this amnesty was to remove the old illegal firearms from communities. One would like to know whether possibilities were also extended to those who are incarcerated because it could have happened that at the time when they were arrested, the firearms were not confiscated? What method would have been used to encourage them regarding the following statement: Disclosing this information is not going to make you face further charges but you would actually be helping society? I would like to know whether that kind of amnesty was also provided to those people?

The MINISTER FOR SAFETY AND SECURITY: We actually did speak to some of the people who are in the various detention centres in the country. The other day, we went to Piet Retief, to your correction facility there. We spoke to some of the inmates. We did say to them: “Look, if you have a firearm that you are hiding somewhere and you know it is illegal, tell the authorities in this detention centre that you have such a firearm and you would like to interact with the police.” I then said, “These officials would ensure that, indeed, you interact with the police and would then call a policeman.” This is what I said and I am sure that it would be in keeping with our democratic practice. A person like that would therefore be allowed, together with the police, to go and find this weapon so that it is handed over officially. This is what we said to them. I hope people have taken advantage of this. There is another case that we are going to discuss with the police. People who are deployed abroad, for instance in our diplomatic service, also face the same thing, that is they could not be back in South Africa in time for the amnesty. I am not suggesting that there are people who have illegal firearms in our diplomatic service. What they said to me they wanted to do was to hand in some weapons that they have which they got through inheritance, because these were there in their homes. The fathers and others wanted to hand in those firearms in keeping with the amnesty. But we are going to talk about that matter as police. We did tell people that they would have that opportunity. Thank you.

Mr Z C NTULI: Chairperson, I would like to find out some information from the Minister regarding the response of Umsinga in KwaZulu-Natal. I remember that when you visited that place they said they were not prepared to bring in illegal firearms. Now I want to check whether they have fulfilled their promises? Thank you.

The MINISTER FOR SAFETY AND SECURITY: In the first instance, we have had varied experiences as we interacted with people in terms of the Firearms Control Act as it related to this amnesty. We were told many stories, such as that the police themselves at times would go to a household and say to the owner: “We know that you have firearms here. We have information. We know where they are actually hidden in your kraal.” They would find those firearms and those people would then say to the police, “Well, as you know, I live in that hut. The cattle live in this kraal. Therefore ask the cattle whose firearms those are.” [Interjections.] There were many problems related to these things.

At Umsinga, if you recall, hon Ntuli, the very first person who spoke was fiery and he uttered sentences such as, “You know, these police must not think that we fear them. We don’t fear them. So they must never come and harass us.” Of course, later on, the police were already on his case but they did not tell me. That person had seven weapons of various kinds, which were illegal. Immediately, when he was arrested by the police, there was a change of attitude, even there. People started to come and hand in their firearms. So we were satisfied with the amount of work that was done.

However, unfortunately, we did not get as many firearms as we had wanted from some of those kinds of areas. But I want to warn those people, as we did, that we are going to find those illegal firearms. We are not going to buy this thing that we must “ask the cattle” – we’re not going to ask any cattle. That is your property. We are going to find those illegal firearms and people are going to pay the price. Thank you.

Mr D A WORTH: Chairperson, I would like to put a question to the hon Minister. He stated that 46 000 licensed weapons were handed in under the amnesty and 33 000 illegal weapons. Probably, most of those 46 000 were handed in by people who can’t be bothered by this new arduous licensing process.

Now, according to norms and standards around the world, it’s the illegal firearm that you try to get rid of. So for every one legal firearm that’s handed in, there should be 10 illegal firearms. That’s according to the norms and standards of firearm amnesty – and I’ve got it somewhere. What is the Minister’s comment on that?

The MINISTER FOR SAFETY AND SECURITY: Well, since we are talking about international standards, the first one I want to recall is that the norm, internationally, is that firearms kill. They kill not only people who ought to be killed because they are involved in a war but they also kill innocents. That being so, the move agitates for a total ban on firearms. That is the international norm.

In Botswana, that government has already banned the possession of firearms, except for people who are in the security services of governments. When we talk about norms, those are the norms that, perhaps, we ought to be talking about in South Africa, given the fact that on average in South Africa – and this has gone down slightly with respect to the previous financial year – there are 20 000 licensed firearms that are lost. I am talking about licensed firearms that are misplaced by owners and lost.

I am not even talking about those that owners put anywhere in their house in a careless fashion, and it is those weapons that children have had easy access to and with which they then kill their siblings. I am not even talking about that. I am talking about those that are lost – in the period 2004-05 it was just over 19 000. Incidentally, I am going to brief Parliament on that matter. More than 19 000 licensed firearms went missing. Those firearms, as you may imagine, go into the hands of criminals. Criminals use them to do all manner of crime.

Now, can we speculate about a person who hands in a firearm to the police? We have never asked them. When they say, “I no longer have a need for this firearm, so take it because you are the police”, we do not say to them, “No, is it not because we have a very strict regime in place which does not allow you to do all manner of things that you are giving us this firearm?” We never ask that question. All that we know is: Here are South Africans who said, “I no longer want to keep this firearm.” The police take it and it is destroyed. Thank you.

           District Six informal settlement and claimants

1. Ms D Robinson asked the Minister of Housing:

   (1) Whether the decision to relocate informal settlers to the District Six area in Cape Town is part of the greater N2 Gateway housing plan; if not, what action will be taken to prevent District Six becoming the site of a growing informal settlement, if so, what are the relevant details;

   (2) Whether any discussions were held with the legitimate claimants to the District Six area (other than the District Six Beneficiary and Redevelopment Trust) prior to relocating settlers to this land; if not, why not; if so, (a) when were such discussions held with re-housed residents and those still waiting for houses and (b) what were the views expressed by them?

   (3) Whether the land on which the informal settlement is located is meant for formal housing for District Six claimants; if not, what is planned for that land; if so, how many houses are to be built;

   (4) Whether this informal settlement is intended to be temporary; if not, why not; if so, what is the planned date when this informal settlement will be removed? C311E

The MINISTER OF HOUSING: Chair, the question under consideration is a fairly long question, and I will give a fairly detailed explanation in the hope that I will have answered any follow-up questions that might arise.

Regarding question 12(1), I would like to read, for Ms Robinson’s purposes, a press release that was released by the city on this matter. It reads thus:

The temporary relocation area that we are talking about was fenced off and was monitored. Basic sanitation and water services were provided. This will allow for the proper monitoring and control of the claimants and the land. Some of the squatters are legitimate District Six claimants; the status of others is being investigated.

The city is not bringing in squatters from other areas. This is not part of the N2 Gateway Project. The project is intended as a temporary measure. Very soon the city will resettle 124 claimant families.

The timeframes, at the time that the press release was given, were indefinite, and the press release was issued on 19 October 2005 and was carried in a number of media in Cape Town.

In response to the press release that came from the city, I wrote to the city mayor and I would like to read it. It reads, as follows:\

Media release, 19 October 2005: in the above regard, which is squatters on District Six land, please note that current policy does not allow the formation of new squatter camps anywhere contrary to our laws and the international agreements that we have entered into in the Millennium Development Goals.

I would like to urge you, therefore, to hastily correct this, failing which we would be in breach of all our policies. It is therefore of utmost importance that the families mentioned in the press release be relocated within 14 days.

We have such a good mayor, within a week those people were relocated and taken to Delft. As we speak there are no informal settlements in the area that we are talking about. The families were relocated to Delft, as I indicated, and I’d like to think that that closes the question. I thank you.

Ms D ROBINSON: Hon Minister, you’ve indicated that the people were moved to Delft. I’m aware of that, subsequently, but I just want to know about these ad hoc moves that are coming from the city, shunting people around from pillar to post, and in a sense creating a hornet’s nest once they land in a new area, as happened in Delft.

How is this occurring if there are clear policy guidelines with regard to dealing with problems like this? And I know that there was a great problem, because these people were settled in Wendy houses? There are also so many people who are still living in shacks who have been on waiting lists for so long. I was just wondering how one could deal with this so that you do not create a hornet’s nest and create untold hardships to so many people because of the resultant action in the community? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF HOUSING: Chair, I’d like you to protect me against questions that have nothing to do with the original question. The original question was: Are the people who have been settled in an informal settlement in District Six part of the land claim?

My answer was carried in a press statement, which was carried all over Cape Town, which the hon member would have read, namely that some of the people are legitimate claimants, some are not, but they were brought together so that the city could identify who they were and be able to verify if those that were not on the list are indeed legitimate claimants.

They have since been moved, after we had had interaction with the city, indicating to them that this is contrary to our policies. Beyond that, Madam Robinson, the question would require another question sent to me, because what you are asking is a general question about everything to do with anything in housing in the Western Cape. Thank you.

                  HIV/Aids orphans and their future


14. Mr MA Mzizi asked the Minister of Social Development:
    (1)      (a) What steps are the Government  taking  to  reduce  the
          number of children orphaned as a result of parents  dying  of
          HIV/Aids and (b) what will be the future of these orphans;


    (2)      whether the Government will foster aid to voluntary foster
          parents; if not, why  not;  if  so,  what  are  the  relevant
          details;


    (3)      whether the Government is taking any  steps  to  encourage
          society to adopt these children; if not, why not; if so, what
          are the relevant details?                  C312E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, the answer to the first question is that the Department of Social Development is working closely with the Department of Health to support the roll-out of the comprehensive ARV treatment and support programme to reduce maternal mortality and prolong the lives of primary caregivers.

Through home- and community-based care and support programmes, and childcare forums, the department is actively involved in early identification of orphans and other children made vulnerable by HIV and Aids long before the death of their primary caregivers.

The identified children and their families are supported by community caregivers from home- and community-based organisations, who refer them to appropriate service delivery agencies within their communities to ensure that they access comprehensive services.

Answer to the (b) part of the question is, to ensure that the rights of orphans and other children made vulnerable by HIV and Aids are fully protected at both policy and programmatic levels, the Department of Social Development, in collaboration with the Department of Health, the Department of Education, UNICEF, the National Action Committee for Children Affected by HIV and Aids or Nacca, developed a policy framework and a national action Aids plan on orphans and other children made vulnerable by HIV and Aids.

The cornerstone of the policy framework and the national action plan is the co-ordination of services to ensure that the orphans and vulnerable children access comprehensive social services. Through the co-ordinating structures and mechanisms put in place to fast- track delivery of services such as access to birth certificates and identity documents, access to grants, provision of educational requirements, protection from abuse and neglect, as well as provision of psychosocial support and monitoring of vulnerable households will be ensured.

Section 14(4)(a) of the Child Care Act of 1983 makes provision for orphans to be determined by the Children’s Court as children in need of care, thus enabling such children to be placed in foster care, residential care or adoption.

The department, together with the provincial government, civil-society organisations and faith-based organisations, is presently undertaking campaigns in provinces to raise awareness regarding the identification of orphans so that they can access services that they qualify for that address their long-term placement.

The answer to question 2 is, “yes”. Regulation 4(1) of the Social Assistance Act of 1992 stipulates that a foster parent is eligible for a foster-child grant if the child is placed in the custody of foster parents in terms of the Child Care Act of 1983, as amended.

However, if the income of the child exceeds twice the annual amount of the foster-child grant determined by the Minister of Social Development, the foster-child grant shall not be payable. Regulation 5(1) of the Social Assistance Act indicates that the foster parent is eligible for the care dependency grant in respect of care- dependent foster-children, provided that the medical report from a medical officer confirms that the child requires and receives permanent home care due to his or her severe mental or physical disability.

The answer to question 3 is that the Department of Social Development and NGOs have an important role to play in raising public awareness on local adoption services. On 30 May 2005 the Minister of Social Development launched an awareness campaign to promote national adoptions.

The national department has developed pamphlets with information on adoption, which were distributed to the public to encourage and recruit potential adoptive parents. The campaign is expected to be ongoing in all provinces.

The NGOs that render adoption services are also embarking on the following awareness programmes to promote national adoptions: an on-going orientation programme to inform the prospective adoptive parents about adoption, visits to churches, infertility clinics and other community structures, radio and television talks, open days in places of safety and the dissemination of information through the print media.

The Children’s Bill also makes provision for registers of prospective adoption parents and adoptable children. This will certainly ensure that people who are willing to adopt children are known to the department.

Mr M A MZIZI: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, if one probably could find out because it is a very sensitive issue of these orphaned children, more especially owing to the scourge of Aids. Now, just to find out whether there is any mechanism in place in the department that if these children are to go to school, because of the trauma that they find themselves in, is there a mechanism in place that could lead to some of these children being taken to the remedial schools?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, children who are affected by or infected with HIV and Aids don’t necessarily need remedial education. But as I said, there is an extensive programme of community- based care in which there are caregivers who act as parents for those children and do the same thing that parents would do. So, they would act as a parent would if the children needed anything through school or anything like that. I hope that satisfies the member.

Mr E M SOGONI: Chairperson, arising from the Deputy Minister’s response in terms of grants that are paid for children that are being fostered, the law, which the Minister mentioned, currently provides for parents to adopt kids so that they can access these foster grants. What about homes that are child-headed? What does the law say, because in the constituency work one often comes across situations where people say that because it is a child- headed family they are not able to access these grants?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, where there are child-headed households, the service providers will make the necessary arrangements for those children who are old enough to be able to get access to the money and it will be organised through those home-caregivers.

       Provinces failed to spend their low-cost housing budget

1. Mr M A Mzizi asked the Minister of Housing:

   (1) (a) How many provinces failed to spend their budget for the 2004- 05 financial year to build low–cost houses and (b) what happened to the unspent monies;

   (2) Whether those monies will be rolled over to the respective provinces if still available; if not; why not; if so, what are the relevant details? C313E

The MINISTER OF HOUSING: Thank you very much, Chair. Hon Mzizi, it is always very pleasant to get a question like this because it allows us to crow about our successes. This is a matter that we have been battling with, namely where we have been unable to spend the money that we have allocated to the provinces.

For the first time we are beginning to get it right. So, it is with utmost pride that I can tell you, hon Mzizi, that in areas like KwaZulu-Natal, they spent 102% of what we had given them. In areas like Mpumalanga and the Northern Cape, they spent 100% of what we had given them. In areas like the Eastern Cape, for the first time, they spent 96% of what we had given them.

However, within the budgetary terms, what we regard as acceptable is within six per cent of what has been given to them. So, we found that in cases like the Free State, they had 14% unspent. In Limpopo, they had 16% unspent because they had administrative problems there. In the North West, they had 28% unspent; and in the Western Cape, unfortunately, they had 13% unspent.

Hon members, there is a 102% spent on one side - so give credit to that one and a 100% and a 100%, and another 100%. We are getting there and one day we will have spent 120% somewhere. The provincial legislatures will decide on what to do with the unspent funds.

What we have done within the 2004-05 period is to transfer all these funds to the provincial legislatures. Therefore we have requested that the provincial legislatures then allocate these back to the housing department

• and this has been agreed upon. So, yes, these monies will be spent.

In the Eastern Cape, we have an additional R26 million that will be given back. In Gauteng, unfortunately, it is only R9 million, because it is one per cent of what they didn’t spend. We have a R141 million that will be spent in North West and 76%, hopefully, will go to the N2 project and that will be given back to the Western Cape. So, all these monies have been rolled over and yes, they will be used for housing projects in this current financial year.

Mnu M A MZIZI: Sihlalo, uNgqongqoshe usezikhululile ngoba uthi imali sebeyinikeze izifundazwe. Ngakho-ke ngeke ngisawubuza umbuzo ozoqondana nezifundazwe. Sekufanele ngitshele ozakwethu bezifundazwe ukuthi manje isisezithebeni zenkantolo. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Mr M A MZIZI: Chairperson, the Minister has rescued himself by saying the money has been allocated to the provinces. Therefore, I am not going to ask a question pertaining to the provinces now. I must tell my colleagues from the provinces that the money has been allocated to provinces. Thank you.]

Mr E M SOGONI: Chairperson, I thank the Minister for the answer. However, in your experience, Minister, has this expenditure been translated into the provision of actual housing? In many instances the housing department has a language called “funds committed”. It is not actually literally translated into the houses that one can count. For example, how many houses have been delivered in a particular place? Thank you very much, Chairperson.

The MINISTER OF HOUSING: Hon member, within the new plan we are now dealing with houses on the ground. So, this money that we are talking about for the period 2004-05 is money committed to the delivery of houses. We have been taking part in an audit where we have counted the number of houses and whether these actually correspond to the number of units that would have been given in subsidy, and yes, within this period that we are talking about, they have.

If you have any knowledge of anything within this period that does not comply, we will be very grateful to follow that matter up. We’ve set up an anticorruption unit, which will deal with any irregularities occurring within the subsidy. But, to the best of our knowledge as a department, this money does translate within this period to houses on the ground.

Ms L MOTLAHEALA (North West): Hon Chairperson, I would like to know from the Minister whether these outstanding monies would be spent on the foundations that are standing there unfinished in some towns up country or it is going to be spent on new houses?

The MINISTER OF HOUSING: No, hon member, our definition of a house is a structure that has a roof on it. And a foundation remains a foundation; it is not classified as a house in the terminology that we use.

However, we have had problems in the past, where we had projects that were not completed and we call those “blocked projects”. For some reason or other we have had problems with the developers that were building those houses and have abandoned them and we are seeking to rectify that. However, this money will be used for houses – houses with roofs on them. It will not be foundations.

                   Municipal remuneration packages

1. Mr C J van Rooyen asked the Minister for Provincial and Local Government:

   (1) What are the details of the remuneration package of (a) municipal managers and (b) senior staff members of the (i) George, (ii) Midvaal, (iii) Weskus, (iv) Swartland, (v) Agulhas and (vi) Breede River-Winelands municipality;

   (2) Whether ward committees for these municipalities have been established; if not, why not; if so,

 3) Whether these committees are functional; if not, why not;
       if so, what are the relevant details in each case? C322E

USEKELA MPHATHISWA WEZOORHULUMENTE BAMAPHONDO NABEZEKHAYA: Mhlalingaphambili, kunye namalungu ahloniphekileyo, imibuzo, ukusukela kowokuqala, owesibini ukuya kutsho kowesithathu, ifuna ingcaciso entsokothileyo, nende. Kungoko ke, Mhlalingaphambili, ndiza kwenza isiphakamiso sokuba iinkcukacha ezifunwayo singabonelela ngazo silisebe, ukuze ilungu eli lihloniphekileyo likwazi ukuyifumana. Enkosi. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, and hon members, questions one, two and three require a detailed and thorough reply. For this reason I want to propose that the particulars that are required be provided by the department so that hon members can access them. Thank you.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chair, I just want to give an executive, summary interpretation for the benefit of hon Watson. The hon Deputy Minister explains that because of its nature, the question needs a detailed response and requests that this should be provided to the member and, of course, even to other members of the House, who will be entitled to it. Thank you.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B J Tolo): I think that I want to rule on this, especially given that hon Van Rooyen is not here. I will rule on his behalf that we grant the Deputy Minister the request she is making. Thank you.

Reply:

The information is not available within the Department. The question was, however, referred to the Western Cape and Gauteng Provincial Governments; and the following response is based on their input: (1) Details of the remuneration packages of (a) municipal managers and (b) senior staff members of the relevant municipalities, are as follows:

(i) George Local Municipality (as at 1 July 2005)

(ii) Midvaal Local Municipality

(iii) West Coast District Municipality (as at 1 July 2005)

(iv) Swartland Local Municipality (as at 1 July 2005)

(v) Cape Agulhas Local Municipality (as at 1 July 2005)

(vi) Breede River/Winelands Local Municipality (as at 1 July 2005)

(2) Information pertaining the establishment of ward committees within the relevant municipalities is as follows:

(3) Information pertaining to the functionality of ward committees within the relevant municipalities are as follows:

              Mobile units in provinces – Home Affairs

1. Ms H F Matlanyane asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

   (a) What is the number of mobile units that have been delivered to provinces, (b) to which provinces were they delivered, (c) what impact have the mobile units made on rural communities and (d) what number of mobile units are still outstanding? C327E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chair, there are 10 mobile units that we launched a few months ago. Of these, three were distributed to KwaZulu- Natal, three to the Eastern Cape, three to Limpopo and one to the Western Cape.

Before the launch of these mobile units we had some challenges in that our services were not easily accessible, particularly in deep rural areas where we don’t have offices. Our people had to travel long distances in order for them to access departmental services.

The launch of these 10 mobile units was a further step by the department to take services closer to the people. These mobile units are providing services that are normally provided by any fixed office of the department. These include, amongst other things, applications for identity documents, birth certificates and other vital documents. Hereunder are consolidated in the answer some of the statistics.

The Limpopo province has had the largest number of ID applications in the mobile units but, overall, the total number of applications for IDs have been 26 236 and for birth registrations 10 368. This means that the mobile units are having the necessary impact, especially in the areas that are needy.

There are 57 more mobile units that we are still awaiting, and as soon as they have been completed - and they are to be completed quite soon - we will inform hon members accordingly. Thank you.

Mr M A MZIZI: Thank you, Chairperson. Deputy Minister, one other thing that one could probably raise - I am happy that you have spoken about what they provide in the mobile units - is that in the past officials manning the mobile units used to say to people that they were there only to give birth certificates and nothing else. Therefore, if people wanted to make an application for an ID, they had to go to the offices.

Now, one can’t tell for sure whether these allegations were true or not, but what we would like to know is whether, as you say, these mobile units provide all the services that one would get if one went to a stationary office. How true is this in terms of Gauteng, where we are having these problems?

IPHINI LIKANGQONGQOSHE WEZASEKHAYA: Njengoba sesicacisile ukuthi sesithole izicelo zomazisi ezibalelwa ezi-26 236, kanjalo nezicelo zezitifiketi zokuzalwa ezibalelwa ngaphezu kwezi-10 000, lokho kucacisa ukuthi lezi zinqola esikhuluma ngazo azithathi nje kuphela izicelo zezitifiketi zokuzalwa.

Asikabi nazo izinqola ezingamahhovisi angamohambanendlwana eGauteng ngoba, njengoba bese ngicacisile, sisalindele izinqola ezingama-57. Zizobe sezithunyelwa kulezi ezinye izifundazwe ngoba, ngokohlelo lwethu, zonke izifundazwe zizoba nazo izinqola. Kodwa ikakhulukazi kunezifundazwe esizibeke phambili ngenxa yobubanzi bazo, kanjalo nangenxa yokuthi muningi umsebenzi okudingeka wenziwe kuzona futhi zibe ziyizifundazwe ezinezindawo ezisemakhaya ezibanzi. Nazi-ke lezo zifundazwe: iMpumalanga Koloni, iLimpopo neKwaZulu-Natali.

Kodwa-ke kuzothi uma sekufika lezi ezinye izinqola ezisele, bese zithunyelwa kuzo zonke izifundazwe. Njengoba sengicacisile, lezi zinqola zizokwazi ukwenza yonke into ekwazi ukwenziwa yihhovisi elimile elakhelwe phezu kwesizinda soMnyango wezaseKhaya. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: As I have stated, we received 26 236 applications for identity documents and over 10 000 applications for birth certificates, which clearly indicate that these mobile units not only receive applications for birth certificates.

We don’t have mobile units in Gauteng yet because we are still waiting for 57 mobile units. We are going to deploy them in other provinces because our plan is to have these mobile units in all provinces. There are, however, provinces that are our priority because of their immensity and there is a lot of work that needs to be done in these provinces. They also have huge areas that are remote. Those provinces are the Eastern Cape, Limpopo and KwaZulu-Natal.

When we get the mobile units that we are waiting for, we are going to send them into all the other provinces. As I have explained, these units are going to do all the work that is being done at a static office building under the umbrella of the Department of Home Affairs.]

Ms J MASILO: Chairperson, I thank the Deputy Minister for giving clarity on the question regarding the next 57 mobile units. However, I just want to share with this House that when the 10 units were launched in the Eastern Cape, they found out that they were not user-friendly in terms of people with disabilities. I just want to find out whether they have upgraded those 10 units now? Thank you.

IPHINI LIKANGQONGQOSHE WEZASEKHAYA: Lezi zinqola esisenazo okwamanje, ngisho lezi eziyishumi ezisekhona, azikabi nayo indlela yokuthi abantu abakhubazekile bangene ngaphakathi. Ngalokho-ke abantu abasebenza eMnyangweni baye behle babancede khona lapho ngaphandle, phansi kwetende lelo elixhunywa phambi komnyango ukuze bakwazi ukuthi balekeleleke.

Ziningi ezinye izinto esizithole ukuthi ziyinkinga maqondana nalezi zinqola eziyishumi ezikhona. Sizozama ukuthi kulezo ezi-57 ezizayo, sikwazi ukubhekana nalezo zinkinga ukuze abantu bakithi bakwazi ukuthola usizo abaludingayo. Kodwa-ke esingafisa ukuthi abantu bakuqonde ukuthi yizinqola lezi, akuwona amahhovisi, ngakho kunezinto okunokwenzeka zingakwazi ukuba nazo.

Kodwa izinto okuyizona ezibalulekile ezizokwenza ukuthi abantu bathole izinsizakalo abazidingayo zikhona kulezi zinqola. Sizokwazi ukuthi uma kukhona okunye okuncane esingekwazi ukukwenza, abantu abasebenzela uMmyango bakulungise lokho ngendlela efanelekile. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: The 10 mobile units in question don’t provide access for people with disabilities. The employees of the department leave the units and help them outside, in the tent in front of the door.

There are several things that are problematic about the mobile units that we have. We are going to try and make sure that the 57 mobile units that we are going to get are well equipped so that people will be able to receive the services they need. I would like people to understand that these are mobile units, not offices; therefore there are some things that we won’t be able to have.

But we do have the most important things that are necessary for people to receive the services they need. We will make sure, if there are some things that we are unable to do, that our employees will see to its being sorted out properly.]

Government support to medal winners in the Expo for the Young Scientist

1. Mr M A Sulliman asked the Minister of Education:

   (a) What support is the Government giving to schools and learners such as the two learners from Intlanganiso Secondary School in Khayelitsha who won a medal in the Expo for the Young Scientist and (b) what is the Government’s commitment to the development of young scientists? C328E

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mhlalingaphambili, umbuzo wohloniphekileyo uSulliman, uphenduleka ngolu hlobo. [Chairperson, hon Sulliman’s question can be answered in this way.]

And in order for hon Sulliman . . .

. . . yo o santseng a ithuta Setswana gore a nkutlwe sentle, ke tla mo araba ka Seesimane. [. . . for those who are still learning Setswana, I will answer in English to enable you to understand me clearly.]

With respect to (a) of the question, expo medal winners received R10 000 for study at an institution of higher education. And an agreement has also been signed between the expo and the Department of Science and Technology to develop the potential of young people while in school.

With respect to (b), our government has a strong commitment to developing and promoting young scientists. This is demonstrated in our maths and science focus school strategy that we are currently intending to expand significantly from 102 schools to over 400 in 2006.

We also demonstrate this commitment in other events, awards and strategies. Firstly, the Education department and the Science and Technology department organise, annually, a national science week. We have a National Science and Technology Forum award programme for top girl learners who excel at mathematics and science, and top girl learners who perform well in the expo for young scientists.

In addition, the National Science and Technology Forum also recognises the top nine schools from each province that are dedicated to maths and science excellence in education.

Furthermore, our department and the Science and Technology department co- ordinate all mathematics and science olympiads at national and provincial level. We organise mathematics and science girls’ camps in all provinces every September of every year.

On 25 October, the hon member would be aware, the Minister of Science and Technology opened a national consultative conference on Youth into Science, which intended to develop a strategy to encourage more and more young people to take up science as an intellectual area of study. Thank you, Chair.

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Chairperson, I want to make my follow-up question in Setswana, but I will bear with the Minister, and rather do it in English.

Firstly, let me just say thank you very much, to the Minister, for that information; it is very helpful. Secondly, does government have some timeframes in place as to when we can, perhaps, overcome this shortage of scientists in South Africa? I just want to hear from the Minister: Do we have timeframes for that? Thank you.

TONA YA THUTO: Tiro eo ya go oketsa Maaforika Borwa a a itseng dipalo le saense, e tlile go re tsaya sebaka se se telele, ka gore fa re bua ka go tlatsa, mo dilong tse, re bua ka bagolo ba ba ithutileng dirutwa tse. Mathata a rona ke gore bana ba rona ga ba dire dipalo le saense kwa sekolong. Ga rena barutabana ba ba rutang sentle.

Dikolo tse dintse ga dina barutabana ba ba rutang dipalo le saense. Fa re bua ka dikolo tse di bidiwang dinaledi, e seng dinaledi tsa Naledi yo, dinaledi tse di simolotsweng ke moemedi wa thuto wa pele re bua ka dikolo tseo. Ke yona tiro ya rona e e lekang go oketsa bana ba ba dirang sentle mo dilong tse re buang ka tsona.

Re batla go netefatsa gore bana ba rona botlhe mo Aforika Borwa ba nna le lebaka la go ithuta dipalo le saense. Fa re ka baakanya mo dikolong, re ka fitlhela gore re oketsa batho ba ba itseng, ba ba nang le kitso e e ikemelang mo tirong e. Mme fa re sa baakanye mo dikolong, re ka se kgone.

Santlha se re se dirang, ke go oketsa dikolo tse di tla tshwaraganang le dipalo le saense go leka gore re nne le bana ba ba ka tswelelang pele mo diunibesithing le mo dikholejeng tsa FET, ba ithute dirutwa tse.

Fa re ka dira mo dikolong mme lona baemedi ba rona ba Ntlo e le Ntlo ya Kokoano Bosetšhaba la re thusa go bona gore dikolo tsa rona mo diporofenseng di a dira le gore a tumalano e ke buang ka yona e re e bona e tshela mo magaeng. Fa re ka baa matlho a rona mo dilong tseo, re tla bona bana ba rona ba tswelela pele. Ke a leboga.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B J TOLO): Re a leboga Tona e tlotlegang. Ke a tshepa motlotlegi Sulliman o utlwile. O tlhalogantse Setswana. (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It would take time to address the problem of the lack of people qualified in mathematics and science in South Africa. In order to address this shortage, we need teachers who have studied these subjects. This situation is compounded by the fact that our children do not study mathematics and science at school. There is a lack of good mathematics and science teachers. Most schools do not have mathematics and science teachers. The “star” schools I am talking about - not Naledi, the Star, which is the name of our Minister of Education translated into English - are the ones that were introduced by the previous Minister of Education. These schools are called “star” schools and they serve to encourage learners to perform as brilliantly as the name suggests.

We would like to ensure that all the children in South Africa have a reason to study mathematics and science. By rectifying the situation in schools, we stand a chance of increasing the number of people who have vast knowledge of these subjects. If we do not rectify the situation at schools, we are destined to fail.

We should first increase the number of schools that teach mathematics and science because by doing so we hope that learners would be encouraged to pursue further studies of these subjects during their tertiary education years at universities and FET colleges.

As representatives in this House, together with those in the National Assembly, we need to collaborate with and encourage schools in the provinces and parents in the homes regarding this important aspect. If we can give thorough attention to these things, there would be noticeable progress among our children. Thank you.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B J TOLO): Thank you, hon Minister. I am sure that hon Sulliman understood you very well. He understands Setswana.]

   Government programmes to equip learners and contribute to their
                            marketability 19.   Mr B J Tolo asked the Minister of Education:

  Whether the Government has any programmes in place to  equip  learners
  who will pass their matric exams and would require employment with the
  necessary experience for them to be marketable; if not,  why  not;  if
  so,        what        are        the        relevant         details?
                         C329E

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I was asking, Chairperson, should you be in the chair if it is your question? [Laughter.] The reply is, as follows:

I have been informed by the department about the recent Status of Youth Report 2005 and, in particular, about one of its findings: that lack of funds is the main reason why post-matriculants do not further their education.

The state does assist with financing study in higher education and we will assist in future with financing study in further education. There is no doubt that the National Student Financial Aid Scheme has been and is one of the great success stories of our democracy. It has funded nearly 100 000 higher-education students to acquire high-level skills, while our current transformation of the further-education college sector entails studying a number of options for financial assistance to students whose careers lie in the acquisition of intermediate skills.

There are a number of programmes that provide post-matriculants with experience and skills that enhance their employment opportunities; these are supported by government and other partners. They include the following: Our FET colleges offer structured learnership programmes that provide access to opportunities for workplace experience and, in addition, our department and the Umsobomvu Youth Fund have a partnership programme which we are running at 22 public FET colleges for youth skills development training. The Umsobomvu Youth Fund has undertaken to invest an estimated R28 million in this partnership programme.

Also, our government departments run internship programmes that provide young people with workplace experience. We do this in our department as well and we have asked our director-general to consider expanding that internship programme to take on more young people.

In addition, several of our FET colleges run skills programmes that are linked to the establishment of co-operatives by young people. The co- operative initiatives provide young people with opportunities for employment or self-employment. This merely refers to what government is doing. Beyond the Education department and its partnerships, as you would have heard this afternoon, is what the Minister of Defence is doing through the training institutes. We are also aware that major state-supported businesses such as Eskom, Telkom and others have youth training programmes for post-school training. So, there are lots of initiatives for young people. Let me come back to my earlier point that for all these opportunities to work, one of the things we have to do is to communicate effectively to young people all this information about opportunities available to them.

We were speaking to young people in Limpopo just yesterday and saying to them they should not regard FET colleges as poor persons’ colleges, but they should see them as institutions for the acquisition of key technical skills for our country; skills they have not always allowed themselves to access because they have had the notion that for post-school training, there is one line and that is from school to university. However, we are saying that FET colleges offer wonderful opportunities for young people of our country to acquire critical skills to serve and grow the economy of South Africa. Thank you.

 Increase in ID applications arising from upcoming local government
                              elections

20. Mr M A Sulliman asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

  (1)   Whether, in light of the upcoming  local  government  elections,
      there is an increase in the number of applications  for  IDs;  if
      so, (a) what are the relevant details and (b) how many IDs  still
      await collection from the Home Affairs office in each province;

  (2)   whether there is any strategy in place to deliver the
      outstanding IDs; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant
      details?
      C330E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, according to the statistics reported by our local offices there has not been any noticeable increase in the number of applications for identity documents as a result of the upcoming local elections.

Every month the department collects statistics in respect of unclaimed and uncollected identity documents from our local offices. On 30 September 2005 we had a total of 197 685 identity documents which were not collected or claimed, the largest number of which is in the Gauteng province with 70 768, followed closely by KwaZulu-Natal with 31 522. The lowest number of uncollected identity documents were in the Northern Cape, about 1 824.

In the last four months, as a result of these challenges, we held discussions with the SA Post Office to find a suitable, reliable, secure, efficient and cost-effective method specifically designed for the posting of identity documents. At this stage the department and the SA Post Office, Sapo, have agreed to sign a service-level agreement before the end of this week, which will provide a long-lasting solution to this problem.

In addition to this, and as is the case currently, our local offices, in partnership with various stakeholders such as municipalities, traditional leaders, community development workers and civil society organisations, use various methods such as conducting door-to-door campaigns, community gatherings and other activities to distribute identity documents. I must, however, indicate that this method has not been very effective due to staff shortages and other resource constraints, hence our partnership with Sapo. Thank you.

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Thank you, Deputy Minister, for the information. What we have experienced is that people are moving from province to province and you find that people are applying in Gauteng for an identity document, stay there for two months and then move to the Northern Cape and submit a new application there. What I would like to know from the department is: Do you have mechanisms in place where you can trace these duplication of identity documents, or are we still faced with the problem?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Indeed, there are new challenges that we come across in so far as identity document applications and collections are concerned. We are exploring new ways, including a short message service, sms, method to get people’s cellphone numbers and a friend’s or relative’s cellphone number as a backup so that we are able to communicate. As soon as the identity document is ready for collection, we should be able to communicate with the applicant and the relative, friend or whomever, so that both of them can inform each other that the identity document is available.

The real challenge we face as a result of this is that the department wastes a lot of resources producing documents which are not collected, because after 12 months we have to destroy these uncollected identity documents, only to find that the person who had applied would by that time still not have obtained their identity documents and may have applied in different offices. But, it also poses a security threat because with the many identity documents that people apply for, there is a real danger that somewhere some of the corrupt officials we have may cause a leakage. They may sell some of these documents after having noticed from our information technology systems that a particular individual has applied several times for these documents.

We want to ask our people and we would like to ask the hon members here to use their constituency offices to emphasise to the members of the public that they must treat their applications, and in particular their identity documents, in a very serious manner because if this document is lost, it could cause very serious security challenges for the country; security challenges of the nature that we have seen in other countries. You cannot allow our identification document to land in the wrong hands. Some of those security threats may not just be an illegal person trying to enter South Africa, but some of these people may be serious security-risk persons being sought by their own countries for crimes or violation of human rights.

Mnu Z C NTULI: Bengicela ukubuza kuSekela Ngqongqoshe ukuthi kungeke yini kusisize, njengoba sazi ukuthi sino-wall to wall wards manje, ukuthi uma omazisi befika eMnyangweni wezaseKhaya bababhalise ngoba banamakheli bese benikeza amakhansela aqondene nawo bathi: Naba abantu okufanele bayolanda omazisi babo eMnyangweni wezaseKhaya, ngoba uma uya laphayana uthi uyofuna umazisi bese kuthiwa uphakathi kwalawa, kule nqwaba engaka, kubathena amandla abantu ukuya lapho. Kanti-ke uma umuntu ezoya esazi ukuthi cha ngikhona lapho ohlwini, kusho ukuthi umazisi wami ukhona nawo. Ngicela ukubuza ukuthi kungaba nenkinga yini uma kwenziwa lezo zinhla zinikezwe amakhansela amawadi? (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Mr Z C NTULI: I would like to ask the hon Deputy Minister whether or not it could work, since we have the “wall to wall” project in wards, if, when the Department of Home Affairs receives identity documents, they draw up a list according to the addresses given and give this to the relevant councillors and say to them, look, this is a list of applicants who must collect their identity documents from the local municipal office? I am saying this because when one goes to collect one’ s ID, one is told that the ID may be in a certain batch of IDs, referring to a very big batch, and that really discourages people from collecting their IDs. On the other hand a person who knows that his or her name is also on the list will be certain that his or her ID is available. I want to know if it would be a problem to set up those programmes and to sub-delegate this to councillors?]

IPHINI LIKANGQONGQOSHE WEZASEKHAYA: Mhlonishwa, sizama wonke amaqhinga esingaba nawo futhi sizimisele ukwamukela amasu nakwabanye abantu ukuze sikwazi ukudlulisa omazisi babantu bafinyelele ezandleni zabo. Sinezinkinga, ezinye zazo eziphathelene noMnyango, zokuthi kwathina kumele sithuthukise inqubo esiyisebenzisayo ukwakha omazisi babantu nokubadlulisela ebantwini kanti futhi sinazo izinkinga zokuthi sizama ukusebenzisana nabo bonke abantu ezindaweni ezahlukene ukuze sikwazi ukufezekisa lo msebenzi. Inkinga ekhona eyokuthi asikwazi ukucela omunye umuntu ukuthi athathe izinyathelo zokuthi kube uyena odlulisa umazisi, kodwa-ke leli su leli lokuthi sisebenzisane namakomidi ezigceme, sisebenzisane namakhansela, sisebenzisane namakhosi ekuthini abantu baziswe ukuthi omazisi babo sebelungele ukuthi bangalandwa, onke lawo masu siyawaphenyisisa, sizowasebenzisa ukuze sithuthukise inqubo yoMnyango esisebenza ngawo. Ngakho-ke siyawamukela wonke lawa masu abantu bakithi abangeza nawo kanjalo namanje esesivele siwaphenya ukuze sikwazi ukufezekisa lo msebenzi, ngoba siyazi ukuthi abantu bakithi uma befaka izicelo zomazisi abafuni nje izinto ezinezithombe abazohlobisa ngazo ezindongeni kepha bafuna izincwadi ezizokwazi ukubelekelela ekutheni bathole izidingo zikahulumeni kanjalo nezeMinyango yangasese. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon member, we are trying our best and we are also willing to take ideas from other people in order to make sure that identity documents reach their owners. We are faced with challenges, some of which are related to the department; we still need to improve our systems of processing and returning of IDs to applicants. In addition to that we are also faced with challenges when trying to work together with all the people from different places in order to finalise this task. Another problem is that we do not have the right just to request anybody to take the responsibility of handing over identity documents. However, we are still exploring the viability of the idea of working together with ward committees, councillors and amakhosi in informing applicants that their IDs are ready for collection. We will use all these avenues in order to improve the department’s processes. Therefore we welcome all these ideas that have been brought forward by our people and there are some that we are exploring so as to enable us to finalise this process. We also know that when our people make applications for identity documents they are not just applying for pictures that they will put on the wall, but that they want documents that would help them to access government services and private business.]

 Graduates blacklisted by the National Student Financial Aid Scheme

1. Ms J M Masilo asked the Minister of Education:

   Whether there are any interventions by the state in trying to address the issue of graduates who have been blacklisted by the National Student Financial Aid Scheme for failing to pay back loans because of being unemployed; if so, what are the relevant details? C331E

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Chairperson, the reply is as follows, and I want to say this, first in Setswana, IsiXhosa and then in English, because this keeps coming up in the public domain.

Ga re kwadise ba ba sa kgoneng go duela Nasfas fa e le gore ga ba dire. [Let all those who are unemployed register with Nasfas.]

Asibabhalisi abantwana ababoleke imali kwi-Nasfas ngenxa yokuba abasebenzi. [They do not list those who borrowed money from Nasfas when they are unemployed.]

Nasfas does not list loan defaulters who are unemployed, but we do list loanees who fail to comply with two undertakings that they made. Loanees undertake to do two things after they graduate. This is part of the agreement when they get the money while they are at university. First, they undertake to start to repay their debt when they start to work and when they earn in excess of R26 300 per annum.

Fa ba tsaya madi, ba kwala ba re, fa ke bona tiro ke amogela madi a kana ka R26 300 ka ngwaga, ke tla simolola go duela. [When they receive money, they promise in writing that when they start working, earning about R26 300, they will repay.]

Secondly, they undertake to keep Nasfas informed of changes in addresses.

Xa ndingalishiya eli khaya, ndiye kwenye indawo, ndiya kumxelela u-Nesfus ukuba ndiye phi, kwanokuba idilesi yam entsha ithini. [When I leave this address and go and live elsewhere, I will inform Nasfas of my whereabouts and my new address.]

Those are the two undertakings that they sign to. If a graduate is working

• a loanee - and refuses to pay back, then they are listed with the credit bureau, because we have the record that they are working, given the link we have with our tax system in South Africa. When they begin to pay or to make alternative arrangements with Nasfas, then they will remain on the credit bureau’s list.

If they fail to inform Nasfas of their change of address – and therefore are in breach of an agreement they have signed – and letters or statements are sent and returned repeatedly to Nasfas, then they are also listed until they provide Nasfas with their correct addresses. These are normal agreements that every institution would engage in and I think we need to accept this. I said earlier, this is one of the best schemes. It is very fair. If you are earning a salary, why are you refusing to pay? If you change your address and you have signed, and we are talking about graduates, why don’t you want to give your address?

In either event, once compliance is established, the listing is removed immediately. I am told by Nasfas that this can be done online in 10 minutes and no record is left with the bureau. It’s important to emphasise that those who are still studying or those who are unemployed or those graduates – there will be very few - who earn less than R26 300 per annum will not be listed, provided they keep Nasfas informed of any address changes. Nasfas also informs me that they write off the debts of those loanees who die or who are permanently disabled.

The sustainability of the scheme depends in large measure on the repayment of loans. I am pleased to report to the House that the record of loan repayments has been what we think is very good and is an indication of the willingness of young graduates of our country to contribute to the future development of South Africa.

This year, young graduates who are employed and working were able to assist us in providing for over R200 million more in funds for new loanees. This is why it is so important that our young people keep to the agreements that they undertake. This is an excellent scheme. I think to say R26 300 is the level at which you begin to repay and the repayment will be small amounts each month; I don’t think you can find a scheme that is better than that.

Mme J M MASILO: Ke a leboga. Dikarabo tsa Tona di nkgotsofaditse. [Thanks. I am satisfied with the Minister’s answers.]

Mr E M SOGONI: Thank you, Chairperson, and thank you, Minister, for the response. Minister, it’s either the offices of Nasfas are not doing what they are supposed to be doing or we are not getting accurate information from students who say that they have been blacklisted. The other area, which is not necessarily in your domain, is that once they are blacklisted and look for work, the prospective employer starts looking for the track record of this person. If it’s found that the person has been blacklisted, it’s difficult to get a job out there. That is what people report to us. From the response that the Minister has given, it means that we will be able to follow up on the accuracy of information. It is possible that the information might not be correct. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I would like to respond, Chairperson, if you would allow, because this is a very important matter. There is a lot of misinformation, because there are many recipients who do not wish to pay. There are thousands who are paying back and I thank them for that, but there are also many who send out a very erroneous message and I think we should say that to them.

There are also people who have not begun paying although they are working. They go to the BMW garage - I know instances of this - where they purchase a BMW car and they need to get a loan from the bank. When the bank checks, it finds that they are listed. Why are they listed? They were earning, but they were not paying back their Nasfas money. I think the bank should ask questions about whether such a person deserves to be given a loan? They are people who they have given an undertaking, but are not meeting it.

There are lots of stories. There are even instances where parents who are very poor, who are not wealthy in South Africa, give young people money to go and pay at the institution where they are studying. These young people do all sorts of things with the money and then go back home and say I was not allowed into the university, because they wanted so much - actually not telling the honest truth to their parents.

We have such instances where at the end of the year, when they can’t get the results to earn their degree after completing their studies, they are suddenly able to produce money to pay off the entire amount that they owed the institution.

There are all sorts of strange things and sometimes it’s because we as parliamentarians are not informing parents of what we are seeing. I would really appreciate us sending out a clear message that this is one of the best schemes and that if we all do what we should, we will benefit as many South Africans as possible. Thank you very much.

               Transport for learners in KwaZulu-Natal

1. Mr B J Tolo asked the Minister of Education:

   Whether the policy for the provision of transport for learners will be implemented in KwaZulu-Natal; if not, why not; if so, when? C333E

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Chairperson, I am told by KwaZulu-Natal that they will implement their own transport policy for schools. There is no national policy for learner transport in South Africa. It’s up to each province to determine, within its means, what programme it would implement.

Thus far, three provinces have developed provincial policies for learner transport: Gauteng, Western Cape and Northern Cape subsidise learners in need of assistance. In terms of their policy, learners who have to walk a distance of more than five kilometres to school quality.

According to the labour force survey study of 2001 and 2003, three-quarters of the children of South Africa walk to school every day. The next most popular method of transport is that provided by parents themselves, followed, at around five per cent, by taxis to primary school and, at nine per cent, by taxis to secondary school. Buses and trains are the least popular method of transport for learners.

Children who have to walk more than five kilometres to school are the ones who are a key concern for the Department of Education. Provincially, in their assessment, we found that the largest numbers of children who walk more than five kilometres to school are in the Eastern Cape, at around 77 000 children, and KwaZulu-Natal, which has the highest number at around 130 000 children. Therefore, around five per cent of learners in these provinces walk long distances.

However, in three provinces in our country, less than one per cent of learners walk excessive distances to school while a further two have rates of between one and two per cent. Certainly, KwaZulu-Natal is saying, within it’s available means and in terms of need it has identified, they indeed intend to implement a provincial transport policy for learners.

               Service delivery of emergency services

1. Ms N F Mazibuko asked the Minister of Health: (1) (a) What amount has been allocated to the service delivery of the emergency services, (b) what programmes have been put in place to strengthen this sector, (c) how many (i) ambulances, (ii) response cars, (iii) helicopters and (iv) paramedics does each province, local metro and municipality have and (d) how many new ambulances with proper equipment does each province intend to purchase;

   (2) whether there are any learnership programmes to encourage young people to join this sector; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? C333E

UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEMPILO: Sihlalo, angibonge kudadewethu uNk Mazibuko ngokubuza umbuzo obalulekile. Ngiyacela ngiyanxusa futhi ukusho ukuthi impendulo izoba yinde kakhulu ngoba igcwele amanani ayizigidi ngezigidi nezigidi zamarandi. Kodwa-ke asiqale simnikeze impendulo yombuzo wakhe. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, let me thank my sister Ms Mazibuko for asking such an important question. Let me tell you, however, that the answer is very long, because there are a lot of figures involved. Anyway, let me start answering her question.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B J Tolo): Hon Minister, if it is that long, is it not possible to table it and then maybe in five minutes capture the main issues in the answer. Is it possible to do that?

UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEMPILO: Ngizozama. Kodwa bengithi ngenza isicelo maqondana naleli lungu elibuze umbuzo. Kodwa ngizozama ngisheshise ngithi qaphu qaphu ukuze ngingachithi isikhathi.

Izifundazwe zonkana zikhiphe imali eyeqile kumabhiliyoni amarandi angu-1,6 yokubhekana nesimo esiphuthumayo. Isifundazwe saseMpumalanga Koloni sikhiphe R168 wamamiliyoni; eFreyisitata kwaba R142 wamamiliyoni; eGauteng kwaba ngaphezu kwamamiliyoni anga-R306; KwaZulu-Natal kwacishe kwaba ama- R366 amamiliyoni; eLimpopo kwaba i-R118 lamamiliyoni; eMpumalanga kwaba ama- R93,5 amamiliyoni; eNyakatho Kapa kwaba ama-R66 amamiliyoni; eNyakatho Ntshonalanga kwaba ama-R97 amamiliyoni; eNtshonalanga Kapa kwaba ngaphezu kwama-R254 amamiliyoni; (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER OF HEALTH: I will try. But I was just making a request to the member who asked the question. I will try to be concise so as not to waste a lot of time.

All provinces in total have set aside over R1,6 billion for emergencies. The Eastern Cape has put aside R168 million, the Free State R142 million, Gauteng over R306 million, KwaZulu-Natal about R366 million; Limpopo R118 million; Mpumalanga about R93,5 million; the Northern Cape R66 million, North West R167 million; and in the Western Cape it was over R254 million.]

Regarding Question 23(1)(b), the department has finalised the national emergency medical services strategic framework, which will enable the national and provincial health departments to determine the optimal placement of emergency medical services, EMS, throughout the country. The framework, in addition, enables the cost of these services to be precisely defined and determined.

Joint meetings between the department and the national and provincial treasuries have already taken place to address the requirement of additional funds for the improvement of emergency medical services. This will become one of the department’s priorities over the next five years.

Make ngibuyele futhi kwingxenye yombuzo 23(1)(c), izigatshana (i), (ii), (iii), (iv) ezibuza mayelana nama-ambulensi, izimoto zokubhekana nesimo esiphuthumayo, amahelikhoptha kanye nalabo abasebenza kulo mkhakha. Empumalanga Koloni banama-ambulensi anga-211, izimoto zesimo esiphuthumayo ezinga-40, amahelikhoptha amathathu, abasebenzi bezempilo besimo esiphuthumayo aba-1 100; Efreyisitata ama-ambulensi ayi-143, izimoto zesimo esiphuthumayo zi-75, abanawo amahelikhoptha, kanti banabasebenzi besimo esiphuthumayo aba-751; eGauteng ama-ambulensi anga-201, izimoto zesimo esiphuthumayo zi-39, abanawo amahelikhoptha, abasebenzi bayi-1 786; KwaZulu- Natali ama-ambulensi anga-342, izimoto zesimo esiphuthumayo zi-41, yinye ihelikhoptha, abasebenzi bayi-1 731; eLimpopo ama-ambulensi ayi-130, izimoto zesimo esiphuthumayo zi-12, abanawo amahelikhoptha, abasebenzi ba- 500; eMpumalanga ama-ambulensi ayi-154, izimoto zesimo esiphuthumayo zi-39, abanawo amahelikhoptha, banabasebenzi aba-602; eNyakatho Kapa banama- ambulensi ayi-120, izimoto zesimo esiphuthumayo ezi-8, abanawo amahelikhophta, banabasebenzi aba-386 – kodwa kufuneka ngisheshe ngisho nje ukuthi kwezinye izindawo lapho ngithi abanawo khona amahelikhophta, njengaseNyakatho Kapa, banebhanoyi elijwayelekile nje elenza lo msebenzi, kanti kwezinye izindawo basayina izivumelwano zokuthi, uma kunesidingo, bahlele nalabo abanamahelikhoptha ukuthi basebenzelane nabo; eNyakatho Ntshonalanga ama-ambulensi ayi-106, izimoto zesimo esiphuthumayo zi-9, amahelikhoptha abanawo, kanti abasebenzayo ba-730; eNtshonalang Kapa ama- ambulensi ayi-188, izimoto zesimo esiphuthumayo zi-32, amahelikhoptha mabili, kanti abasebenzayo bayi-1 310. Sekuhlanganiswe konke, ama-ambulensi esinawo lapha eNingizimu Afrika ayi-1 595, izimoto zesimo esiphuthumayo zi- 295, amahelikhoptha okungawethu ayi-6, abasebenzayo bayi-8 879.

Ngifuna ukuphinda ngisho ukuthi, kuye kuthi uma kufuneka sisheshise masinyane, sisayine isivumelwano nanoma yibaphi abamabhanoyi abangashesha bahambise izigulane lapho kufanele zifike khona. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Let me go back to the other portion of question 23(1)(c), sections (i), (ii), (iii), (iv), which ask questions regarding the ambulances, emergency vehicles, helicopters and the people working in this field. In the Eastern Cape, they have 211 ambulances, 40 emergency vehicles, 3 helicopters and there are 1 100 emergency workers; in the Free State there are 143 ambulances, 75 emergency vehicles, they have no helicopter and there are 751 emergency workers; in Gauteng there are 201 ambulances, 39 emergency vehicles, they have no helicopter and they have 1 786 emergency workers; whereas in KwaZulu-Natal there are 342 ambulances, 41 emergency vehicles, 1 helicopter and there are 1 731 emergency workers; in Limpopo there are 130 ambulances, 12 emergency vehicles, they have no helicopter and there are 500 emergency workers; in Mpumalanga there are 154 ambulances, 39 emergency vehicles, they have no helicopter and there are 602 emergency workers; in the Northern Cape there are 120 ambulances, 8 emergency vehicles, they have no helicopter and there are 386 emergency workers – I must, however, hasten to say that where I said provinces do not have helicopters, like in the Northern Cape, they in fact have normal small planes that do the same job, while in other places there are agreements that those who do not have helicopters will be assisted by those who have if the need should arise - in the North West there are 188 ambulances, 32 emergency vehicles, 2 helicopters and there are 1 310 emergency workers. In total we have 1 595 ambulances in South Africa, 295 emergency vehicles, 6 helicopters of our own and there are 8 879 emergency workers.]

I would also like to mention that we are already developing a national emergency medical services plan, which is going to be very comprehensive.

Bengifuna ukuphendula umbuzo 23(1)(d) obuza ukuthi mangaki ama-ambulensi kodwa ngoba sengikushilo lokho, sebeyofunda emaphepheni ngoba ngizolishiya leli phepha engifunda kulo. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[I wanted to answer question 23(1)(d), which seeks to know how many ambulances there are, but I have obviously answered this question and those who want the answer can read it on this very piece of paper I am reading from, because I will leave it here.]

Regarding Question 23(2), only two of the nine provinces, that is Free State and KwaZulu-Natal, presently have learnership programmes owing to lack of capacity in the provinces.

Kodwa-ke njengoba sesishilo, sinesu lokuthi sizobaqeqesha kanjani ukuze sandise inani lalabo abasebenza kulo Mnyango. [Well, as we have said, we have a plan as to how we are going to train them to multiply the number of people working in this unit.]

However, as part of the national emergency medical services strategic framework, the capacity for the training of emergency care practitioners will also be addressed. The department is, in collaboration with the professional board for emergency care practitioners, presently reviewing training in the field of emergency care.

Uhlelo ebesinalo seluludala, aluhlangabezani nezidingo ezibonakalayo emphakathini. Yingakho-ke silubuyekeza lolo hlelo lokuqeqesha. [The programme that we had is outdated; it no longer meets the expected standards in the communities. It is for this reason that we are reviewing the training programme.]

This is being done with a view to revising the present system of training to provide better care in the prehospital environment and to meet the additional requirements for the trained emergency care practitioners through the implementation of the framework.

Ngiyabonga kakhulu. Ngithemba ukuthi angithathanga isikhathi eside kakhulu. [Thank you very much. I hope I did not take too much time.]

USIHLALO WESIKHASHANA (Mnu B J TOLO): Ngqongqoshe, siyabonga kakhulu ngempendulo. Ngabe ukhona yini umbuzo ovuka kule mpendulo? Awukho umbuzo . . . [Ubuwelewele.] Angizwanga kahle lapho Ngqongqoshe . . . Uthi uyadumala? (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B J TOLO): Minister, thank you very much for your answer. Is there anyone with a follow-up question? No question . . . [Interjections.] I didn’t hear that clearly, Minister . . . Were you saying you are disappointed?]

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Ngithi ngiyadumala njengoba bengangibuzi omunye umbuzo. Ngize lapha ngizimisele ukuzophendula. [I said I am disappointed that they are not asking me any follow-up questions. I came here prepared to answer questions.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B J TOLO): The Minister is really not happy that you are not asking follow-up questions. Be that as it may, I think we will continue. You will ask follow-up questions some other time.

Government steps to encourage social workers abroad or inactive to return

1. Ms J Masilo asked the Minister of Social Development:

   1) Whether the Government is taking any steps to encourage the return of social workers who are (a) abroad and (b) in the private sector (inactive); if not, what are the relevant details;

   (2) Whether his department has any programme in place to address the problem of training social workers; if not, why not; if so, what programmes? C335E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: The answer to the question is, as far as social workers that are abroad are concerned, that there are no measures currently in place to encourage these social workers to return.

In the private sector, yes, the department is in the process of finalising the retention strategy for social workers. As the first phase in the implementation of the retention strategy, the re-grading of salaries of social workers in the Public Service was done and effected.

This not only focused on salaries but also improved and standardised job descriptions, which also addressed issues regarding career-pathing and specialisation for social workers. The approval and rolling out of the retention strategy should address internal concerns of social workers and attract social workers back to the sector.

To part two of the question, the answer is yes, the department has programmes in place to address the problems of training social workers as a means of service delivery improvement, and with a view to re-orientating social service professionals to meet the current social challenges, as well as deliver on the mandate of government.

The Department of Social Development has initiated the capacity-building programme, targeting social service professionals in both government and the NGO sector. The programme is based on the action-learning approach, which will bridge the gap between practicing social-service professionals who have vast knowledge in the field and the new entrants into the profession, who have a good theoretical background, but limited experience.

It is further aimed at updating social-service professionals on new developments within the profession and in the sector. A consultative process was embarked upon whereby all role-players and stakeholders gave input as to what areas of development need to be covered with the capacity- building programmes. A curriculum was then developed to address some of the priorities as the first phase.

The next phase of the programme will be determined upon evaluation of the current programme, developmental needs of the department and the sector, as well as the availability of funds.

Consultation has been initiated with an organisation called Asazwe, which is the association of all social-work institutions of higher learning, concerning the formal training of social workers to address the limited number of social workers qualifying from university and concerns with the sector in this regard. Thank you.

          Development, monitoring and evaluation of houses

1. Mr E M Sogoni asked the Minister of Housing: (1) Whether the developer-driven project (which bypasses local government) is the way to go with regard to development, monitoring and evaluation of houses, especially in Gauteng; if not, why not; if so, what steps will be taken in respect of developers who give poor workmanship and ditch the project because they have run out of funds;

   (2) whether the National Homebuilders Registration Council (NHBRC) has the capacity to monitor and evaluate the quality of homes that are built, especially the low-cost houses; if not, what is the position in this regard? C337

The MINISTER OF HOUSING: Thank you very much, Chair.

Ntate Sogoni ke na le bothata haholo ka potso ya hoa, hobane ha re dumele re le mmuso hore ho be le developa e potang ka kwa le ha Masepala. Re sebedisana le Masepala hobane re ipoleletse hore ke hona moo ditokelo tsa batho di tswang teng. (Translation of Sesotho paragraph follows.)

[Mr Sogoni, I have a problem with your question, because we don’t agree as government that there should be developers that bypass municipalities. We work hand in hand with municipalities because we are certain that that is in the interests of human rights.]

Onke amalungelo abantu aphuma kumasipala. Ngoko ndiyacela, bawo, kwasekuqaleni ukuba silungise le ndawo yokuba thina simbethisa ngoyaba urhulumente wezekhaya. Asimbethisi ngoyaba urhulumente wezekhaya. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[All the rights of people are given effect by the municipality. Therefore, I appeal to you, father, from the outset, let us rectify the point that was made that we sideline the local government. We do not sideline the local government.]

Having said that, we must admit that where the municipality is not the developer, it is possible for us to fast-track what it is that we are doing, but at all times . . .

Kodvwa ngaso sonkhe sikhatsi, masiphala kufanele ngekwemtstfo abukisise kutsi lomtfutfukisi ngempela wenta konkhe yini lokusemandleni akhe kutsi akwente. Ngaso sonkhe sikhatsi-ke tsine sihleti lapha kuye lomtfutfukisi adzimate asinikete loku lebesimcele kutsi asinikete kona.

Ngeke size sifike lapho khona sitawukhandza kutsi sekuphele imali kulomtfutfukisi, ngobe ngekwemtsetfo wetfu, kufanele ahambe ngalendlela lebesikale ngayo kutsi asikhombise kutsi utawuphumelela yini kucedza lomklamo wakhe. Lomkhandlu wavelonkhe-ke wekubhalisa kwakhiwa kwetindlu, (Translation of Siswati paragraphs follows.)

[The municipality must at all times ensure that the developer is doing everything in his power to do it. Therefore, we will always keep asking the developer until he gives us what we have asked for.

We will never arrive at a situation where the developer has exhausted funds, because according to our policies, he must work in accordance with what we have estimated in terms of his indication to us that he will be able to finish his project.

This National Home Builders Registration Council . . . ]

Ntate Sogoni, eo yona re ipoleletse hore re se re iphile matla hore e ka tla e fihle diautleteng tse 91. [Mr Sogoni, we have empowered ourselves and they can come to 91 outlets.]

So we believe that we have the necessary capacity within the National Home Builders Registration Council to monitor that all the work that it is supposed to monitor is done on a full-time basis. In terms of the NHBRC regulations, we require that continuous supervision is exercised by both the municipality and the provincial government, in the case where they are the developer, that there is a three-monthly workmanship assessment, that there is a yearly roof leakage assessment and that there is a five-yearly major structural defect assessment on the project.

We are tightening up on all these things to ensure that we do not have the kind of shoddy workmanship that you refer to in the cases where the developer is outsourced by the municipality or provincial government . . .

Ke ne ke bona e kare ke di qetile ka ofela dipotso tsa hoa . . . [I think that I have answered all your questions . . . ]

Mr E S SOGONI: I will comply . . . [Laughter.]

                Mass-participation sports programmes

1. Ms N F Mazibuko asked the Minister of Sport and Recreation:

   (a) What budget has been allocated to the mass-participation sports programmes, (b) how successful is the programme in developing young people to be successful athletes or sports persons, (c) how many young women are participating in this programme and (d) (i) how many hub co-ordinators does each province have and (ii) what stipend does each co-ordinator receive? C339E

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. The reply to the hon Mazibuko’s question is: (a) that the mass- participation budget for this current financial year is R30 million.

The response to question (b) is that we have, thus far, over 0,5 million of young people of this country participating. It is very hard to get a final figure because this is taking place at different places and at different times, all the time.

We have capacitated 917 young people with basic skills, like the administration of sport and recreation; we have taught them first-aid skills and some of them have undergone training such as management coaching in the following federations and activities: basketball, baseball, indigenous games, rugby, soccer, handball, swimming lessons, athletics, cricket, boxing, netball, aerobics and general gymnastics.

In each province, we have established a hub that focuses on youth at risk and, in fact, they participated in the last South African games in Ethekwini, last September, and all provinces were represented by provincial teams of the youth at risk.

Our response to question (c) is that 42% of the total number of participants in these hubs is female and 30% of these women are young women. All of the women below the age of 35 from the age of 18 we characterise as young women.

We have a total of 131 hubs throughout the country, spread out as follows: There are 22 in the Free State; 22 in Gauteng; 16 in KwaZulu-Natal; nine in Limpopo; 10 in Mpumalanga; 16 in the Northern Cape; eight in the North West; 12 in the Western Cape and 22 in the Eastern Cape. All hub co- ordinators receive a stipend of R1 800 per month and all activity co- ordinators receive a stipend of R1 200 per month. Ke a leboga. [Thank you.]

Mr M A MZIZI: Thank you, Chairperson. Very briefly, coming from the response of the Minister’s reply: I’ve heard talk of so many sport codes that are, actually, being given money, but none is given to golf. Where a lot of money is being . . . [Interjections.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J B Tolo): Order! We are talking about mass participation. The question is on mass participation. Thank you, sir. You may be seated.

            Investigation into a certain local authority

1. Ms J F Terblanche asked the Minister for Provincial and Local Government:

   (1) Whether he has received the report on the investigation into a certain local authority (details furnished); if not, when is it anticipated that he will receive the report; if so, what were the findings;

   (2) whether this report will be tabled in Parliament; if not, why not; if so, when? C343E

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, the answer to the hon member’s question is that the Minister has received the report referred to by the hon member. The Minister and the relevant MEC, hon B Vilakazi, are currently considering the report. Once the government has finalised its work, a report will be presented to the relevant bodies or structures.

 Sport and Recreation projects relating to the 2010 Soccer World Cup

1. Mr D A Worth asked the Minister of Sport and Recreation:

   Whether his Department has identified specific projects in respect of the amount of R241,5m, as announced by the Minister of Finance, that will be allocated to the Sport and Recreation Vote in connection with the 2010 Soccer World Cup; if not, when will such projects be identified; if so, (a) which projects, (b) who has been put in charge of driving them and (c) what is the estimated completion date in each case? C344E The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon Chairperson, the reply to the hon member is, as follows: To the question whether we have identified specific projects for the budget of the R241,5 million, the answer is yes. The Department, together with the Local Organising Committee of the FIFA 2010 World Cup in South Africa, has identified the host cities and stadia that must be built or refurbished. To this end the R241,5 million is for planning, design and the initial construction work that must take place in November this year already.

As far as the second part of the question is concerned, the Development Bank of South Africa has been entrusted with the driving of these projects and will be overseen by the Government Technical Unit for the 2010 World Cup under the leadership of Dr Joe Phaahla.

With regard to the third part of the question, in terms of our agreement with FIFA, South Africa must be ready for the inspections in July 2008. The projects themselves – the stadia and road access to the stadia - must be ready for the test run in July 2009, when we actually take them through the paces.

According to FIFA, we are way ahead of schedule. In fact, two weeks ago, the FIFA delegation pleaded with us to slow down, so as not to compete with

1. I think this is very important for the members and South Africa to know; that we were told that the next World Cup is going to be in Germany and therefore 2010 should not compete with 2006. This is what FIFA insists on. In as far as our construction industry is concerned, they believe that they will be ready on time to complete whatever they are entrusted to complete.

Questions transferred from written to oral reply upon request by the relevant members (Rule 239):

Individuals requesting HIV/Aids tests at state-run hospitals and clinics

1. Mr D A Worth asked the Minister of Health: [Written Question No 105]

   (1) Whether individuals who request to be tested for HIV/Aids are allowed to do so at all state-run hospitals and clinics in South Africa; if not, why not; if so,

   (2) whether this applies to the Kestell clinic in the Free State; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? C223E

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson . . . e re ke boele ke lebohe potso. Ke re ha o ya mane dipetleleng tsa mmuso, re tla o thusa ha batla ho etsa diteko tsa HIV/Aids. Kaofela ha tsona di etsa diteko tse jwalo. Dipersente tse 89 tsa ditleliniki tsa mmuso le tsona di tla o thusa ka diteko tsa HIV/Aids, ha o batla hore di etswe. [Thank you once more for the question. I have said that when you go to the public hospitals, we will assist you if you want to have HIV/Aids tests. All of them do these tests. Eighty-nine percent of public clinics will also assist you with HIV/Aids tests, if you want to have them done.]

I then talk about the Kestell clinic in the Free State. It offers a comprehensive primary health-care package and that also includes voluntary counselling and testing.

Tleliniking eno re na le baoki ba babedi ba rupeletsweng ka botlalo ho etsa mosebetsi wa ho etsa diteko esitana le ho kgothatsa le ho thoba maikutlo a eo diteko di entsweng ho yena. Baoki bana ba sebetsa ho tloha ka 07:30 hoseng ho fihlella ka 16:00 thapama. (Translation of Sesotho paragraph follows.)

[In that clinic we have two well-trained nurses to do the job of running the tests and counselling the person who is being tested. These nurses work from 07:30 in the morning to 16:00 in the afternoon.]

At no stage are patients denied testing for HIV if they want to be tested. A total of 20 lay counsellors were trained to assist the two professional nurses in providing pre- and post-test counselling. We work very well. Thank you.

Mr D A WORTH: Chairperson, I just want to request if the Minister could give me that reply in writing as well, please?

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Mr Worth . . . o tla e fumana karabo e ngotswe, le ka molomo. Ke a leboha. [You will receive a verbal and a written response. Thank you.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mr Worth, did you hear that?

Mr D A WORTH: Yes, thank you, Chairperson.

Mr S SHICEKA: Thank you, Chairperson. To the Minister, as far as testing for HIV and Aids is concerned, for people who don’t want to go to public hospitals or clinics because they don’t want to expose themselves, when are we going to have the technology in our country where you test yourself at home – which is like the pregnancy test? When is it going to be available in this country? I thank you.

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson . . . karabo ya ka e itse: [My response was as follows:]

We must provide pre- and post-testing counselling. If you can pre-counsel, pre-test and post-counsel yourself, maybe we can consider that. I don’t know of any person who can pre-counsel and post-counsel himself or herself. So, I don’t think we are going to provide that, unless you can assure me that you will offer the facilities for pre-counselling and post-counselling at home. I don’t want suicides. I thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Questions 3 and 4 will stand over, as will 12.

Fraud and corruption relating to motor-vehicle registration, driving-  licence tests and vehicle roadworthiness from 1 January 2004 to the present

1. Mr D A Worth asked the Minister of Transport:

   Whether any instances of fraud and corruption have been discovered in the Free State with regard to (a) motor-vehicle registration, (b) driving-licence tests and (c) vehicle roadworthiness during the period 1 January 2003 up to the latest specified date for which information is available; if so, (i) (aa) what were the circumstances, and (bb) who were the people involved, in each case, (ii) what specified action was taken against the persons involved and (iii) what steps are being taken by his department to prevent a reoccurrence of such fraud and corruption? C280E

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Thank you, Chairperson and hon members. I would request to summarise the answer because it is too long to be given orally but I would provide a copy of the full response to the hon member and the House.

A number of cases were indeed reported in the Free State where fraud and corruption took place during the period 1 January 2003 up to date with regards to motor-vehicle registration.

In Viljoenskroon, one testing officer, one NaTIS clerk and one police officer are being prosecuted. The Traffic Management Directorate of the Free State Province, together with the audit, implemented new guidelines for the checking of documentation by supervisors.

The following areas were involved in driving-licence tests: Ladybrand, Viljoenskroon, Welkom, Winburg, Goldfields and Bloemfontein, East Free State, North Free State, Odendaalsrus and Kroonstad. People such as gardeners, owners of driving schools, testing officers and a NaTIS clerk, amongst others, were also involved.

There were specified actions in which officials were involved in Ladybrand, Viljoenskroon, Welkom, Winburg and Goldfields and the concerned officials were arrested and are being prosecuted. This includes an owner of a driving school, who was recently sentenced to 18 months imprisonment. Offenders involved in East Free State, North Free State, Goldfields, Senekal and Paul Roux were arrested, so were those in Odendaalsrus and Kroonstad. The Directorate of Traffic Management, together with the audit, have embarked on a process of checking the documentation of supervisors.

In places such as Sasolburg, Welkom and Bloemfontein, there are a number of vehicles that were declared roadworthy without being tested for roadworthiness. In Sasolburg, offenders included a NaTIS clerk and testing officers, and in Bloemfontein, people from a private testing station and the officials concerned were arrested and are being prosecuted.

I would like to say, with regards to the second question, that in most of these cases the provincial monitoring body works in collaboration with the SAPS Organised Crime Unit in Welkom and Bloemfontein. These criminals will be brought to book and members of staff would be disciplined accordingly.

In addition to the steps that are being taken by the provincial department to prevent a recurrence of fraud and corruption, the national department is paying for and has requested the Special Investigative Unit to assist with the national audit and investigation of driving licences and vehicle theft with the assistance of the SA Police Service and the National Intelligence Agency. In collaboration with the Special Investigative Unit, we are discussing ways of extending this investigation to all registering authorities and, in some cases, vehicle testing stations where roadworthy inspections take place.

It was also reported to the department that the Special Investigative Unit had successes in the Free State, where irregularities relating to driving- licence fraud took place. As soon as these investigations are completed and the Director of Public Prosecution has taken the decision to prosecute, we will make the necessary announcement.

Whilst the Special Investigative Unit and other core workers are dealing with the crime-related matters on the one side, the Department Transport is simultaneously wrapping up procedures and legislation to improve the situation. The details pertaining to these facts would be made available to the hon members to peruse, as I said initially. Thank you.

Mr D A WORTH: I would like to thank the hon Minister for his full reply to my question. Thank you very much.

The Council adjourned at 17:06. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS



                       MONDAY, 7 NOVEMBER 2005

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Introduction of Bill

 (1)    The Minister of Defence


      i) Prohibition of Mercenary Activities and Prohibition and
         Regulation of Certain Activities in Areas of Armed Conflict
         Bill [B 42 – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 75) [Explanatory
         summary of Bill and prior notice of its introduction published
         in Government Gazette No 28163 of 24 October 2005.]


     Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on Defence of
     the National Assembly, as well as referral to the Joint Tagging
     Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint Rule 160, on
     8 November 2005.


     In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of
     the Bill may be submitted to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)
     within three parliamentary working days.

1. Draft bills submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159

(1)    Revenue Laws Second Amendment Bill, 2005, submitted by the
     Minister of Finance on 7 November 2005. Referred to the Portfolio
     Committee on Finance and the Select Committee on Finance.


  2) Prohibition of Mercenary Activities and Prohibition and Regulation
     of Certain Activities in Areas of Armed Conflict Bill, 2005,
     submitted by the Minister of Finance on 7 November 2005. Referred
     to the Portfolio Committee on Defence and the Select Committee on
     Security and Constitutional Affairs.

1. Membership of Committees

(1)     The following changes have been made to the membership of Joint
    Committees viz:

    Budget:


    Asiya, Mr S E (Alt)
    Chikunga, Mr L S
    Cwele, Mr S C (Alt)
    Dithebe, Mr S L
    Fubbs, Ms J L (Alt)
    Gumede, Mr D M
    Mabe, Ms L L
    Mashigo, Ms R J
    Mahomed, Ms F
    Mkongi, Mr B M
    Mnguni, Mr B A (Alt)
    Schippers, Mr J
    Wang, Mr Y


    Constitutional Review Committee:


    Beukman, Mr F
    Burgess, Mr C V
    Chohan-Khota, Ms F I
    Gaum, Mr A
    Jeffery, Mr J H
    Masutha, Adv T M
    Ndzanga, Mr R A
    Njobe, Ms M A A
    Schoeman, Dr E A


    Defence:


    Booi, Mr M S
    Cele, Mr M A
    Diale, Mr L N
    Johnson, Ms C B
    Koornhof, Dr G W
    Madasa, Adv Z L (Alt)
    Matsemela, Ms M L
    Maziya, Mr A M (Alt)
    Monareng, Mr O E
    Montsitsi, Mr S D
    Mngomezulu, Mr G P
    Nxumalo, Ms M D
    Ntuli, Mr S B
    Phungula, Mr J P
    Sotyu, Ms M M  (Alt)
    Schippers Mr J
    Tolo, Bishop L J
    Van Wyk, Ms A


    Joint Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Qualilty of Life and
    Status of Women:


    Direko, Ms I W (Alt)
    Mabena, Mr D C
    Makasi, Ms X C
    Maserumule, Mr F T (Alt)
    Meruti, Ms M V
    Morobi, Ms D M (Alt)
    Morutoa, Ms M R
    Ngele, Ms N J
    Ntuli, Ms B M
    Ngcobo, Ms B T
    Rwexana, Ms S P
    Tshwete, Ms P


    Joint Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of Life and
    Status of Children, Youth and Disabled People:


    Bhengu, Ms P
    Chalmers, Ms J
    Gcwabaza, Mr N E
    Kondlo, Ms N C
    Madella, Mr A F (Alt)
    Mohlaloga, Mr M R (Alt)
    Molefe, Mr C T
    Moss, Mr M I
    Newhoudt-Drunchen, Ms W S
    Nzimande, Mr L P M
    Reid, Mr L R R

                      TUESDAY, 8 NOVEMBER 2005

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism

 (1)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 8 November 2005 in terms of
     Joint Rule 160(4), classified the following Bills as section 76
     Bills:


     (i)     Foodstuffs, Cosmetics and Disinfectants Amendment Bill [B
          35 – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 76)


     (ii)    Diamonds Second Amendment Bill [B 39 – 2005] (National
          Assembly – sec 76).


 (2)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 7 November 2005 in terms of
     Joint Rule 160(6), classified the following Bill as a section 77
     Bill (money Bill):


     (i)     Adjustments Appropriation Bill [B 37 – 2005] (National
          Assembly – sec 77).

1. Introduction of Bills

   1) The Minister of Finance

   ii) (i) Revenue Laws Amendment Bill [B 40 – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 77)

   (ii) Revenue Laws Second Amendment Bill [B 41 – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 75) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior notice of its introduction published in Government Gazette No 28212 of 7 November 2005.] Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on Finance of the National Assembly, as well as referral to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint Rule 160, on 8 November 2005.

   In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of the Bill may be submitted to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) within three parliamentary working days.

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Council of Provinces

1. Report of the Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs on the Patents Amendment Bill [B 17B – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 75), dated 8 November 2005:

   The Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs, having considered the subject of the Patents Amendment Bill [B 17B – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 75), referred to it, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

2. Report of the Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs, dated 25 October 2005:

   The Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs having considered the Report and Financial Statements of the Wholesale and Retail Sector Education and Training Authority (W&RSETA) for 2004- 2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005 referred to it, reports that it has concluded its deliberations thereon.