TUESDAY, 15 NOVEMBER 2005

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          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

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The Council met at 14:02.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I have been informed that the Whippery has agreed that there will be no notices of motion and no motions without notice today.

We shall therefore proceed to the questions to the Deputy President, as printed.

Questions to the Deputy President:

 Government plan to advance global commitment to poverty eradication


 1. Mr S Shiceka asked the Deputy President:
What has the Government planned to ensure the advancement of global
commitment to eradicate poverty and to promote peace, security and
sustainable development?                       C292E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Chairperson, the reply to the question is as follows: One of our regular activities as the South African government in our participation in multilateral organisations such as the United Nations, the African Union and other organisations of this nature is to ensure that these organisations prioritise the importance of committing greater resources to the eradication of poverty and to the promotion of peace, security and sustainable development.

This has been vividly evident in our vocal calls to the Western world to cancel the debt of poor nations and to participate in poverty relief and development programmes. Our participation in UN peacekeeping missions in strife-torn regions of the continent also attests to our commitment to peace, security and sustainable development. Our persistent calls for the restructuring of the United Nations are also partly aimed at creating a global environment that is sensitive to the issue raised in the question.

That said, however, we need to acknowledge that there is still a lot of work to be done. The outcome document of the Millennium Declaration states that Africa is the only continent not on track to meet any of the goals of the Millennium Declaration by 2014. Although recent debt cancellation by the G8 will free up much-needed resources for poverty eradication and sustainable development, Africa and the developing world need assistance in terms of resources required to meet the millennium development goals.

According to Geoffrey Sach’s report for the developing world, the cost of meeting the millennium development goals will amount to US$12O billion in 2006 and US$198 billion in 2005. For poorer countries to meet their millennium development goals, it is estimated that global assistance will need to double roughly from US$69 billion in 2003 to US$135 billion in

1. Overall assistance needs are likely to be higher, since these estimates cover only investments that contribute directly to achieving the goals.

Our government plans to continue lobbying for debt cancellation and for increased official developmental assistance by developed countries to achieve the required scale of resource transfer to empower the poor of the world to extricate themselves from their misery. It is particularly important to make sure that the millennium development goals, which deal with global partnerships, are given high priority. It would be difficult to realise these goals without meeting that particular objective. Government also remains committed to efforts to strengthen the United Nations with a view to enhancing its authority and efficiency, as well as its capacity to promote peace, security and sustainable development. Thank you. Mr S SHICEKA: Thank you, Chairperson, I must thank the Deputy President for responding to this question. At the same time, the follow-up question relates to the unsuccessful discussions that have taken place around the restructuring of the UN. Given that the issues that were supposed to have been focused on in the millennium development goals were not focused on, and given the fact that the discussions did not succeed at that level, what is this government doing to ensure that there is an engagement with other countries so that these issues are taken up and finalised in the next round?

It is not only that. In two month’s time, we are going to Hong Kong, where we will be discussing issues around the World Trade Organisation. We have had problems regarding trade and the discussions are not going well. Are there any possibilities that, by next month, in terms of sustainable development, we will be able to succeed in Hong Kong? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: With regard to both questions, although the UN negotiations were unsuccessful, they were not a total failure because there is room for continuous engagement. The African heads of state are going to meet soon in order for them also to revisit the African position. I think I will be the first one to say that progress is disappointing, both in relation to the UN restructuring and to the discussions at the WTO. As we prepare for Hong Kong, we are not as hopeful as we would have liked to have been at this point in time. South Africa is, however, maintaining intense discussions with regional blocs, such as the EU and SADC in order to see how we together with these countries, can play a constructive role. As you all know, South Africa has a partnership with India and Brazil. All three countries tend to be quite strong and vocal on these issues. As individual countries and as a collective, we are also continuing discussions with the relevant parties, to see if we cannot broker any progress. The Hong Kong situation looks very dicey. Maybe some progress can be made in the UN, but the Hong Kong discussions are more difficult.

Mnu M A MZIZI: Angibonge kuSekela Mongameli, enkulumeni yakho okuvukayo okuwumbuzo ukuthi yize phela manje sikhuluma ngokuxosha indlala kulabo abampofu nababempofu kulezo zikhathi, lokhu kubhekise kubantu ababencishwe amathuba nabantu abampofu. Uma sikhuluma ngokuxosha indlala, sikhuluma ngabantu abampisholo ababencishwe amathuba. Ngabe uhulumeni uqikelele kangakanani ukuthi lezi zinsiza ezitholakayo zifika ngqo ngempela kulabo abazidingayo na? Phela kungase kube khona ukukhwabanisa sibone kulokhu kukhuluphala leya ebivele ikhuluphele kuthi lena ezacile ihlale izacile njalo. Ngiyabonga.

IPHNII LIKAMONGAMELI: Njengoba wazi ukuthi uMthethosisekelo wethu thina lapha eNingizimu Afrika uyalungiselela ukuthi indlela esisebenza ngayo kufanele siqale ngalaba abangalidli izambane likampondo uma senza lokhu okuthiwa phecelezi ‘affirmative action’.Leyo nto-ke ilungesela ukuthi usizo lusheshe lufike kulaba abaludinga kakhulu. Ekunikezeleni-ke lolu sizo kubantu, uma ubheka isabiwomali sethu singuhulumeni siyazichaza sona ngoba njengoba usibona nje sinokwenzelela okuningi emisebenzini ebhekene noxoshindlala. Kodwa-ke into esafuna ukuthi sisizane ngayo sisonke kanye namalungu ale Ndlu nomphakathi uphelele ukugada laba abathi noma iqatha selizongena emlonyeni womuntu olambileyo balintshontshe.

Kunabantu abathi bengenazo izingane ezihluphekayo nezidinga ukuthola isondlo sikahulumeni bahambe bayosintshontsha, kanye nalabo bantu abangakabibikho ezingeni lokuthi kufanele engabe bathola imali ephuma kuhulumeni bahambe bayoyintshontsha. Yizinsizi-ke lezo zobugebengu esinazo lapha emphakathi. Niyabona-ke ukuthi laphaya kwezokuthuthukiswa kwezomphakathi ikakhulukazi, kanye namaphoyisa babambisene ekulweni naleyo nto yingakho nje sekukhona abantu esesibabambile. Nokho, akukalungi konke. Sisadinga ukuthi sibambisane ukuze konke lokhu kuchithwa kwemali ngale ndlela kuphele. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Mr M A MZIZI: Thank you, Madam Deputy President. What arises from your response is a follow-up question. When we speak of alleviation of the poverty of the poor and the previously disadvantaged, we are categorically referring to the previously disadvantaged people and the poor. When we speak of the alleviation of poverty, we are referring to the poverty of the black people who were previously disadvantaged. What measures has the government put in place to ensure that all these services and resources are channelled directly to those who are needy? If this does not happen, there will be corruption and one would see the rich remaining rich and the poor remaining poor. Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: As you know, hon member, our Constitution in the Republic of South Africa guides us in our operations first to give preference to those who are poor, and that practise is called “affirmative action”. That policy lays a foundation for speedy service delivery to those who are in dire need. In delivering these services, we as government look at our budget, which defines itself as being biased towards the poverty alleviation programmes. What we need to work on together, with the members of this House and the entire community, is to keep an eye on those who steal resources set aside for the poor.

There are people who steal by applying for social grants when they do not have children who qualify for government grants. There are also those who steal by receiving a government pension when they have not reached the right age yet. These are criminal problems that we encounter in our communities. The Department of Safety and Security, acting jointly with the Department of Social Development, are busy fighting that scourge, which is why we have arrested a number of people, although we have not finished. We need to work together in order to avoid unnecessary spending.]

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, there is no interpreting service available. I don’t know whether it is because it is the second last day of Parliament, but the wheels are coming off. We did not understand a word of that last answer.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you for notifying me about that. Can we check the interpreting service up there, please, and make sure that we have an interpreting service for all members so that they can hear what the deliberations are about?

Are there any follow-up questions? Oh, Ms Terblanche. Did you understand what the Deputy President said?

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: I did not understand what the Deputy President said. That’s why I don’t know whether my follow-up will be relevant. That is my problem but I will ask the question nevertheless. I would like to know, with regard to television news reports of last night and this morning - it is fantastic to hear what we are doing on a global scale to eradicate poverty - what is government’s plan regarding assisting those people at grassroots level who are extremely angry at the lack of delivery and at the lack of poverty eradication?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: In the answer that I gave, that it is exactly what I explained what we are doing at grassroots level.

           Progress with democratisation African continent


 2. Mr Z C Ntuli asked the Deputy President:


  What progress has been registered on the African continent with regard
  to democratisation and respect for the rule of law and human rights?
                                                     C295E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, the answer to this question is as follows: The promotion of democracy, respect for the rule of law and human rights remain the central pillars of South Africa’s foreign policy. Our engagements in the African Union and the Southern African Development Community seek to strengthen institutions that promote human rights, democracy and the rule of law.

We are engaged in various forums and continental institutions to further the cause of our belief in human rights and democracy. We continue with our efforts to help consolidate the African Union and its organs of governance in the belief that its efficient functioning will enhance the values of democracy, respect for the rule of law and human rights.

We contributed to the adoption of the Protocol on the African Court of Justice by the African Union Assembly in Maputo in 2003. We are also involved in initiatives to bring peace, stability and post-conflict reconstruction in the continent. We believe that good governance is a basic requirement for peace, security and sustainable development.

As part of promoting good governance and further to strengthen the values of democracy and the rule of law, we are currently in the process of reviewing ourselves as a country, through the African Peer Review Mechanism. The process seeks to review our democracy, economic and political governance as well as socio-economic development. So far, two countries, namely Ghana and Rwanda, have been reviewed. Our efforts to encourage other countries to accede to the African review process continue.

South Africa will continue with efforts to strengthen the African Union regarding its structure and goals of promoting human rights, democracy and good governance. We have a moral responsibility to continue to work towards strengthening democracy in the African continent.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, Deputy President. Whilst we are speaking about Rwanda, I have been reminded that there is a delegation from the second house, the senate, of Rwanda. They are sitting in the gallery and they are led by their deputy president. I would like them to stand up so that the House can see them. I wish to recognise them. [Applause.]

Deputy President, the entire delegation in fact represents women’s empowerment. I was surprised when I saw them this morning when they visited our programming committee – there was only one man amongst them that I could see. I can tell you that South Africans will follow suit soon. I am told Rwanda is the first country to beat us in that regard, but we will catch up soon. You are most welcome to the sitting of this House. Enjoy your stay in our country. Thank you very much.

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, I would just like to ask, with regard to this answer that we have just been given concerning democratisation and respect for the rule of law and human rights: What is the government’s viewpoint, then, regarding the abuse of human rights in Zimbabwe?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Deputy President, although that seems like a new question, I am not too sure . . .

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I will handle it. Our view is the same regarding human rights abuses anywhere in the world.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Thank you very much, hon Deputy President, for your response. I believe it that our participation as a country has in part led to a situation where Liberia has held its own elections. And the prospect is that we may have, for the first time, a woman president in Liberia. What are the prospects of other countries in Africa following suit by holding their own democratic elections?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think that it is now a common trend for African countries to hold democratic and credible elections. Sometimes the shortcomings that are there have a lot to do with resources and logistics. But the spirit, governance and legislation that govern elections in most of the countries are in place. So the prospects of democratic elections in Africa being the norm are much higher than they have ever been.

In fact, it’s difficult to think just offhand of a country that wouldn’t actually do it. Of course, some countries have their own slightly different versions of democracy, but nevertheless they have a mechanism to test the will of the people, even if it’s to a limited extent. For us, as a continent, to be able to make as much progress as was made in Liberia certainly augurs well. Ellen Johnson-Sirleaf is definitely a veteran in areas of governance and she comes with a lot of credibility. I thank you.

                  Missing children in South Africa


 3. Ms F Nyanda asked the Deputy President:


  (1)   Whether she is considering establishing a commission or
         structure to look into the possible reasons for the increase
         in the number of missing children in South Africa; if not, why
         not; if so, what are the relevant details;

  (2)   whether there are any programmes or other measures in place to
         address this issue; if not, why not; if so, what programmes or
         measures?                                   C324E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, the answer to the question is as follows. The Office on the Rights of the Child in the Presidency and the national structure responsible for advancing children’s rights have initiated a process that aims to explore and understand the causal factors responsible for the high incidence of child abuse and missing children.

This consultative process will include the provincial Offices on the Rights of the Child, local government representatives and relevant government departments. The process will also seek to secure the input of relevant organs of civil society, parents and children themselves.

It is intended that the findings of this consultative process will enable us to improve the effectiveness of our programmes to address the problem. It is expected that this consultative process will be completed early in the new year.

The responsibility for tracing missing children lies with the SA Police Service and with the communities to assist the police. Their success rate in recovering missing children from 1 April 2005 to 30 June 2005 is approximately 86%, which is high when compared to international standards. Nevertheless, one child missing is one child too many.

The Bureau for Missing Persons in the SA Police Service was established in October 1994, after a thorough study had been done on strategies that were being utilised in other countries. The bureau does regular searches regarding the phenomenon of missing persons and the relevant training modules for detectives are revised and updated with the most current investigative methods being utilised worldwide.

It is important to note that the phenomenon of missing children is also a component part of our strategies to address violence against children. In this context, various departments have line functions and intersectoral programmes that address the issue of violence against children. A good example of such a programme is the 16 Days Campaign of No Violence Against Women and Children, which will run from 25 November to 10 December 2005.

  Role of the black middle class in addressing poverty, illiteracy,
                  unemployment and underdevelopment

1. Ms B N Dlulane asked the Deputy President:

   1) Whether, since taking office in the Presidency, she has engaged the black middle class in playing a more proactive role in addressing the issue of (a) poverty, (b) illiteracy, (c) unemployment and (d) underdevelopment, particularly in the rural areas and townships; if not, why not; if so, what has been the response in each case;

 (2)    whether there are any projects that are currently under way that
      are supported mainly by black business; if so, what are the
      relevant details?                                   C326E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chair, the answer to the question is that the President has tasked me and other colleagues to develop an initiative to ensure that our country’s economic growth is accelerated and shared, with the objective of having unemployment and poverty halved by 2014. Part of this responsibility includes engaging with all sectors in our society to gain not only their support for this initiative but also to determine their contribution to it.

Although I cannot comment at this point on the specific commitment made by social partners because the engagement is still going on, I can indicate that social partners consulted so far have been very supportive of the initiative and indicated their willingness to contribute towards achieving the initiative’s goals of halving unemployment and poverty and of overcoming the problems of underdevelopment, both in urban and rural areas.

I have engaged the black middle class on the issues of poverty, unemployment, illiteracy and underdevelopment. I have, for example, engaged the Black Management Forum and the Business Unity SA at their general meetings on these matters. I’ve also engaged individual members of the black middle class for their insight and knowledge. And as we speak, we will be able, when we present our programme, to approach them for specific contributions in accordance with what we conclude to be intervention strategies. At this point, we are busy fine-tuning those strategies.

I have also engaged the black middle class in particular to support job creation, the employment of unemployed graduates and support for small, medium and micro enterprises, especially with regard to affirmative procurement in the areas where the black middle class are either managers or shareholders.

I’ve also engaged them in relation to the plough-back campaign, which the BMF, in any case, is already involved in, in regard to human resource development efforts and, lastly, with regard to persons that are affected by HIV and Aids, especially the plight of children who do not have parents. All have expressed an interest and are all waiting to be consulted once we, together with the relevant departments have identified the input required.

Just to give examples, hon Chair and members, the Black Management Forum, for instance, has a programme of ploughing back in terms of which black professionals contribute skills, resources and their time to rural communities, specifically in the areas where they grew up or are based. There’s a programme at university level to fast-track black students into leadership and management roles. This involves a collaboration with the university to enhance the management capacity and skills of black graduates, as well as giving them some measure of hands-on experience. The BMF has, therefore, opened chapters at universities to equip these young people with the skills that are needed by our economy.

Women’s empowerment programmes embarked upon by women’s consortia, specifically Wiphold, Nozala and Women’s Development Banking, also have specific outreach programmes that address women in the rural areas. Some are income-generating. Some basically the address the rights of women and some address the plight of children.

Mvelaphanda, for instance, has charities that it supports. These include Cotlands in Johannesburg, which is a charity that looks after children; Aids Link; Kagiso Trust – a black-empowered company that has a myriad programmes that offer support at grassroots level; Eyesizwe, which is a mining company, has a partnership with young people in KwaZulu-Natal, where they support development of young people; Nakana, a black-owned tourism company, has a partnership with the Umsobomvu Trust involving, fast-track skills development for young people. Thank you.

Mr S SHICEKA: Chair, bridging the divide between the first and second economies mainly aims to ensure that the black middle class is mobilised. In this country, there is general acceptance of the fact that there is a lack of skills. Is there any campaign that has been embarked upon to mobilise different professionals in different sectors, those who have retired, to come and assist in ensuring that the country moves forward?

Secondly, have we undertaken any credible skills audit to determine the level of skills that we have and do not have in this country, in concrete terms?

Thirdly, is the education system being linked to the economic priorities and imperatives of the country, so that we are able to produce the requisite skills in an accelerated manner?

Lastly, the Deputy President has raised the issue of the commitment by various organisations to imparting certain skills in the country, but I want to direct myself to the Black Management Forum’s plough-back campaign, which will ensure that skills are taken even to the rural areas. Now, this is good information; it’s refreshing. However, as a public representative coming from emaMpondweni, Pondoland, how do I ensure that I access those skills so that the people of Pondoland can benefit from these initiatives? Is there any way that we can make use of this good news? Thank you.

USEKELA MONGAMELI: Sihlalo, ndiza kuqala ngalo mbuzo wokugqibela, ngelithi kwilungu elihloniphekileyo: Hamba, uye kufuna amaMpondo akowenu, . . . [Kwahlekwa.] . . . la wawukhula nawo, ze uthi kuwo: Masidibaneni, siyeni enkomeni sisonke. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, I will start with the last question from the hon member: Go to your people, the amaMpondo . . . [Laughter.] . . . the ones you grew up with, and tell them: Let us get together and meet the challenge.]

We are also going to depend on the leadership of public representatives to continue to sustain this mobilisation of the black middle class to plough back into the rural areas.

There is actually an NGO called Plough Back, which has centralised information that you can access regarding who is available to do what. The BMF is linked to that campaign.

We are also working towards having a relationship, as the Office of Deputy President, because that is where we are going to harvest some of the people whom we intend deploying to assist us in addressing the issues of the second economy.

Nani apha ePalamente nikwiqela elikumgangatho ophakathi. [Members of Parliament belong to the middle class too.]

So it’s not just about those in the private sector; we also need people in this House to go and deploy back in the areas where they are needed, beyond what they do in their constituency offices. Well, I don’t know how many hours of sleep you’ll get after that, but I think that we are part of that collective of skills that is needed out there.

On the issue of bridging the divide between the first and second economies and mobilising the skills of retired professionals, there is a process, which is led by the Department of Public Service and Administration . . . First let me start by saying that we have identified different categories of skills that are critical for us to, for instance, implement the very ambitious programme that we have in order for us to drive growth to higher levels. What is most challenging about that programme are the skills we require for the programmes that we need to start with immediately. Infrastructure is one of them, including delivery at local government level.

So we’ve started with mobilising and documenting the shortage of skills at that level. The Department of Public Service and Administration, together with National Treasury, is establishing institutional capacity within DPSA in order for them to invite, document, commit and write the specifics of the people when they deploy them.

It’s one thing to have a volunteer who’s willing to help. But if you don’t know exactly what it is that you want to do, they can go in the field and actually mess up by becoming little politicians once they get there. So you need very concrete job descriptions, support mechanisms, monitoring mechanisms and key performance indicators. All of that is being worked on in the DPSA. They’ll have a database of everybody, which we’ll evaluate so that you don’t have chance-takers with no credible skills making themselves available.

Yes, we want volunteers and the Department of Local Government is drafting volunteers, assisted by the Afrikaanse Handelsinstituut, AHI.

We also want to make the point that for some of the challenges that we face, it’s not enough to get a volunteer, because you want people to be committed; you want to hold them accountable. So we’ve said that we are willing to pay in order to engage people in those areas where we desperately need skills.

This is in regard to financial skills in many of the municipalities because, as you know, we have the problem of many municipalities having audits that don’t look too good. We also need to pay lots of attention to the engineering field. Economic planning is another skill that is very rare in the rural areas. You hardly find any economists that reside in the rural areas.

So our intention is to have a collective of people whom we can deploy on a revolving basis. We deploy you in an area and you must have around you people that you must mentor. So the municipalities must identify those people who must be mentored so that the people who go there are there to mentor people.

Where we cannot find enough people from South Africa, we will look outside South Africa. Our first preference is South Africans. Eskom has also done that. Our first preference, obviously, is South Africans who are in the country or who are retired. The second option is South Africans who are living overseas, who thought that the pastures were greener there and are now dying to come back.

We are co-operating with an organisation called Revolution Come Back – I may have the name wrong – which is facilitating the return of those South Africans who want to come back.

Our third option is other Africans from other African countries who more or less come from similar situations and understand our situation. Then, of course, broadly, we’d recruit from other countries in the diaspora and beyond. So that is our strategy for mobilising skills.

We will be able, some time next year, to give feedback on how many people we have been able to mobilise, what skills they have, what they do and what impact they are having, etc. Our intention is that, some time next year, there should be no municipality with a shortage of skills that has not been given some attention and assistance in order for it to be able to perform on its very, very basic tasks.

Therefore, regarding the skills audit, yes, the Department of Science and Technology has issued one of its councils with a mandate to check the supply and demand of skills. The information is published every year by National Business Initiative, Nabi. One can always improve the performance of the board, because it is not perfect.

Based, for instance, on the big and ambitious programme that we intend implementing to drive growth, and with respect to each project that we are going to be implementing, we know what skills you need for each project. Somebody will plan the project and that is the reason they arrive at a budget.

We insist that they must give us the skills requirements of each project so that we start working on ensuring that we supply the skills. In order to do that, we collaborated with - again, in terms of the work that I am doing on both the second economy and economic growth - the National Business Initiative, which, as you know, is a business association. Together, we are going to be bringing in labour. Just this morning I just finished a round of discussions with Nactu and Fedusa, having finished earlier discussions with Cosatu, who are also coming on board.

We are going to be looking at how we can fast-track the development of people who will have the skills that we need in the short term. We are giving ourselves an 18-month schedule.

The second initiative is what we call a joint council, where we will work on an institution which will solely exist for addressing the supply and demand of the skills; provide credible data; track people; mobilise scholarships and assist students with study programmes as well as ensure that the curricula of the teaching institutions change and become appropriate.

We will probably get good results quicker in the further-education and training institutions. They are more ready and more accepting of this initiative. In fact, the Minister of Education sees this as a partnership between government and the private sector in developing education content. The same thing will have to happen with universities.

So we are going to be looking at the mobilisation of the skills at the middle level: your artisan and plumbing skills. With Umsobomvu, we are doing a very thorough review of anybody or anything that has capacity to train. We are going back to the institutions that used to be owned by government, Transnet, the private sector, etc., which used to provide the skills that we need now, that we have identified as lacking, and we are asking them to reopen. I’m quite heartened because in many cases they are actually willing to reopen and to take in the students.

In the first instance, we are going to be bringing in unemployed matriculants and unemployed graduates. We are going to do some re- engineering so as to reposition them better in the economy.

I must say, hon members, that regarding this part of my work failure is just not an option, because if we don’t get this one right, everything else that we are talking about is halalala! We have to get this question of skills right because even the benefits and the gains of the past 11 years hinge on us cracking the question of skills and turning it around so that in future we talk about – and my future is two years, not that we’ll have all the answers – a system and a process that works.

We know where in the pipeline the students are and we know how we are going to deploy them in the economy. Of course, again, partnerships and support from both hon members and the broader public are essential. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr E M SOGONI: Chairperson, I thank the Deputy President for this information. It’s a pity that one can’t access this information in a written form so that we can make more use of it.

The other problem that is faced by people in the second economy is that they do have ideas regarding what they want to do, but the biggest problem in South Africa today is access to finance. I think that many efforts have been undertaken, but so far it’s very difficult for people to access finance. Is there something, perhaps, that is being done to ensure that finance is facilitated?

If you talk about Khula, the Umsobomvu Trust, etc, they have not helped the people out there. Thank you, hon Chair.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, I agree with the hon member about the frustration with regard to access to finance.

Again, regarding how we intensify our efforts in the second economy, we are looking at taking an approach that is very specific with regard to micro, small and medium enterprises, because each one of them requires a different strategy.

I think that one mistake we have made – and I have to own up to that, having been a Deputy Minister of Trade and Industry myself – is always lumping them together and sometimes following a broad approach.

Your micro-entrepreneurs sitting on the sidewalk - mainly retailers, very good traders and they are streetwise - demonstrate a lot of resilience and staying power when they embark on an initiative, but they need to do things differently. We are trying to formalise them, but not to overformalise them too fast because that would burden them with too much red tape. However, many of them need support so that they can have start-up capital.

Therefore, we would like to scale up microcredit below R10 000. As you know, we do have institutions already supported by government as well as some in the private sector. Some are very bad, and some are doing okay.

So we are planning to get all of them together, just to look at how we can actually scale them up. What we’ll be looking at is how much appetite there is for this kind of credit in South Africa, so that we can say that we probably need to support 1 000 institutions annually, for instance. In that case we’ll have to work out how much resources do we have now, to what extent do we reach out and how much scaling up do we need to do. As you know, the National African Federated Chamber of Commerce has already committed itself to supporting 100 000 SMMEs per annum. That’s an ambitious programme, but I love ambition. So we are going to engage with them so that we can understand how they got to those figures.

If the figures look credible, I will tell them to count all of us in and that we’ll be part of this process of ensuring that we support 100 000 SMMEs per annum. It would be great for the economy if we could achieve that.

However, we have to make sure that these will be credible ideas; we are not going to be throwing money at the problem, and that we can generate the amount of money required for support.

They are looking at stabilising between micro and small enterprises, which is where our interest as government lies. However, we are also interested in those people who are looking for start-up capital between R10 000 and R250 000, and those in general who are looking for credit below R1 million, because there is such a gap in the market.

In government and the private sector, there isn’t a dedicated support mechanism for people in that category. So we are working with the Financial Services Charter to come up with a business plan so that we can intervene in that area. We are also going to look at co-operating with Business Partners, that is the former Small Business Development Corporation, SBDC, in which the government is a very small shareholder and has therefore not been as robust as we needed to be. We are going to be working with them so that we can see how we can use their very good and well-established practice to scale up their impact. Their infrastructure and knowledge of the sector is such that it is possible for them to have a much greater impact.

Again, our timeframes are very short. By some time in the first quarter of next year, we should know whether we are coming or going – not that we’ll have all the solutions, but at least we must have a fair understanding of where we want to be. Khula is also restructuring itself so that it can fit into this plan. Thank you.

Rev P MOATSHE: Chairperson, I’m not sure whether it is correct to ask whether the people of South Africa see the future the same, because in 1994 there were those who saw a bright future and those who saw a gloomy future as far as the economy of this country is concerned. However, recently one of the people who were negative said that the economy of South Africa has never been so good.

Again, I’d like to understand those who feel threatened by the strength of the rand and are not happy when the rand grows stronger. They are happy when the rand weakens. There are those who are happy when the rand goes strong, and I’m one of them. Those who export are not happy because they don’t get enough dollars for what they export. How do we move forward?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Well, your question does touch only slightly on what the Deputy President said, but I don’t want to rule it out if the Deputy President wants to respond to it.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, because it is a moruti, a reverend, who is asking the question – I want to go to heaven – there’s no way I’m not going to answer a question from a reverend. [Laughter.]

You know, the issue of a strong rand or a weak rand, to some extent, is an academic debate because we do not have control over it; the markets decide the strength of the currency. We have taken a decision as government that we’ll not set the rand artificially, but – as the Governor of the SA Reserve Bank indicated – we want to increase our reserves to make sure that we strengthen our position as government.

Yes, those who export get less when the rand is strong. But, can you imagine what would happen in South Africa if the rand were to weaken to as low as R13 to a dollar, given the oil prices? We, including those who export, would be facing a much bigger problem. So you know, every cloud has a silver lining.

What we want to achieve in South Africa is a situation where the rand is stable, not volatile, and is competitive so that exporters can plan realistically. When the rand was very low, pessimists thought that that was where the rand belonged and that we were going to have a weak currency, which in the minds of some people, is supposed to be the norm in developing countries. Therefore they began to develop business models that were based on an economy with a weak currency: ha ha ha! Our economy and currency have strengthened, and it’s a good thing that we have achieved that. But now those pessimists are struggling to adjust their business models in order to have a realistic business model that is based on the strength of this economy.

But I have to say that those who were crying the loudest were those in the gold mining industry. As you know, when I was Minister of Minerals and Energy, I used to deal with them a lot, and it was very difficult because the gold sector employs so many of our people.

However, I think that over time, they themselves have learnt a lesson. Somebody like Bobby Godsell has already said that, “Well, the issue of the strength of the rand is no longer an issue for us. We are now on top of the situation. We are working very hard.”

Obviously, they can always do with a weaker rand, but they’ve learnt to adjust so that if ever the rand weakens the windfall is just a short-term one. They must not change their business plans; their business plans must always be premised on a rand that is strong and on a more optimistic outlook about our economy. Thank you.

Mr B J TOLO: Chairperson, I’d like to find out from the Deputy Minister . . .

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Deputy President.

Mr B J TOLO: Sorry, Deputy President, . . . what impact the realisation of the whole question of controlling the circulation of money inside and outside the country will have on the economy, if there is liberalisation? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, you are not a moruti, so don’t smuggle a new question! You can’t get me to heaven.

You know what, the exchange controls in place in South Africa now are minimal. It’s more sentiments now, and you know that the markets operate on sentiment.

People have always wanted a `big bang’ approach to exchange controls relaxation. The approach of the Treasury has been very systematic and careful, because they first had to understand that we do not create a situation where there’ll be flight of capital. But, with the slow relaxation that we have experienced, we have not seen that.

People have realised that doing business and keeping your money in South Africa is actually a very good business move. Our country has been rated much higher by all the rating agencies and, therefore, people’s intentions to take money out of the country have instead turned into intentions to bring money back into South Africa.

So we do not have real fears in that regard. However, the fact that there’s so little left in the form of controls is really neither here nor there. The sentiments of the markets are sometimes very unpredictable. [Applause.]

             SIXTEEN DAYS OF ACTIVISM: ACT AGAINST ABUSE


                      (Subject for Discussion)

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, hon colleagues, friends from the old Senate days, I do see some faces here from the distant past. Of course, I need to greet my colleagues from the Free State, showing, of course, no preference whatsoever. We are all feeling pretty confident after the recent rugby wins that came our way. [Interjections]. It makes us feel good.

Hon Chair, I thought that the best way to approach today’s input was to report back to you on how the campaign has grown since the last time that we had this very important debate, because the one thing that the President made us commit to last year was to this programme as a 365-day event. What he wanted us to say and to recognise is that government is committed to this programme and this is one element of government’s response.

What the President also recognised, and I think this is what we have seen in the response from people we have worked with, is that across the political spectrum, the class spectrum and the race spectrum, the good people of South Africa are responding in a way that is perhaps unprecedented.

We have put in place legislative mechanisms. Laws on their own do not protect people. Our police spend far more money than they did 10 years ago on training people specifically. Whilst so many people remain vulnerable, particularly our women and children, to violence, the government is increasingly concerned that the response needs to be greater and faster and that, given the current constraints that exist, we recognise and acknowledge that we cannot do this alone.

Therefore, wherever I go in the country, in our prison systems we see people from civil society saying to government, in many ways, ``How we can form a partnership that makes a difference in the lives of the most vulnerable?’’

And so we decided to build on that campaign. It was very important. Our strapline for the campaign is simply: Act against abuse. It is a call to action. It is a call because perhaps, in this debate, we will say that it is also time to acknowledge that the men have perhaps been alienated by the vocabulary in the past. We need to find a positive role for the good men in this country. Ninety-seven per cent of the perpetrators convicted in this country are men, but not 97% of men are perpetrators. On the contrary, the vast majority of this country’s men and boys are good men, but as Nelson Mandela told us, being a good person is not enough if you stand by and do nothing. If you stand by and do nothing, really bad things can happen.

And so, we need to mobilise all the sectors of this country. We have to speak across 11 languages, which in itself is a challenge. We have to speak to people across the urban and rural divide. We have to bring the same messages about values, about positive values, because we know that after 10 years of saying ``don’t do this’’, it does not work. But if we can say to people: Imagine a South Africa where violence in the home did not occur, do you know what we would achieve?

The British have set the cost to the economy of domestic violence at 23 billion pounds annually. We are a developmental state and we have undertaken that role consciously. The prerequisite for development is the absence of violence. This is why we are all involved. We all have a role to play. Many of us are the parents of sons. What are we saying to them, as parents, about their definition of their manhood in this new country? What are we saying? How are we supporting working parents amongst ourselves? Too frequently we hear about children going missing or hurt when they are sent on errands to the shop or to do this or that. These are not parents who do not care. These are parents who are working, frantically trying to keep things together and, in a moment of blind faith, make a fatal error that results in the hurt of their children.

So, Chair, we’ve tried to take this incredibly broad campaign and identify various constituencies. We have spoken to the traditional leaders. They are working on producing a four-phased plan. We have not undertaken to write it for them. That does not help. We have said: What is it that you honestly feel you can do to make a difference? They have come up with a four-phased plan that will be produced, popularised and launched at the Sixteen Days Campaign, but will be popularised in the year to come as well.

Active plans around rape, the abuse of children and how to protect boy children as well is a very important issue because abused boy children almost invariably become perpetrators later. How to deal with women is actually a discussion actually about the restoration of dignity to individuals and communities. It is a serious discussion.

The focus of our work as the national co-ordinator - we are just a mechanism, my department has been honoured with this task – is to just co- ordinate. We cannot possibly produce a campaign. That is what marketers and advertisers do.

What we do is consult and try to find synergies. For instance, how does the protection of women speak to our housing policy? Do we prioritise single female parents who are at risk of, for instance, domestic violence, for housing? How do we respond in terms of economic empowerment so that women are not economically bound to the perpetrators who are beating them daily? How do we discuss this with men who feel threatened because they do not understand this discussion?

On the discussion, for instance, of black economic empowerment, people who feel threatened by it do not understand that the empowerment of the nation is going to be better for everybody. Men have to see this problem, which speaks to the heart of the equality debate, as something that will be empowering and affirming to themselves as well. The achievement of substantive equality and dignity lies at the heart of this campaign.

We have spoken to lawyers about how they use their pro bono time to protect these vulnerable groups. We have spoken to perpetrators because the cost model for Britain not only speaks about the cost to economy but also about the cost to the state to provide response services, cost to the victim and cost to the perpetrator. There are costs involved, huge costs. How do we bring perpetrators on board to say, ``I need a change?’’

We have had those discussions. We have put programmes in place that are specifically directed. When I say ``we’’, please - we are not taking the credit; those line departments have done that. We have spoken to the moral regeneration movement. How does this speak to our notion of positive values, our notion of the new South Africa that we are trying to build?

In addition, and I am delighted to say this, we will in the coming months speak to all the media houses because it is very easy, at this time, to find sensation in the terrible stories that we read in the newspapers. But if the public is inundated with sensational stories, they are not equipped with the underlying mechanisms that assist them to deal with this issue, and for this reason we have spoken to the media houses. Yesterday we launched to the media, to say to them this is what we are going to be doing and we need you to substantively empower people to deal with this problem, deal with the issues, talk about ``opposite the editorial’’ pieces.

I invite you all as members to write to the newspapers to express the views of your constituencies, not in sensationalist, haphazard ways but in how we mobilise ourselves as one. At this media launch, Rev Tsele indicated to us that he has mobilised the National Forum of Religious Leaders to say that they are going to present one unified message, the religious leaders of this country, across religious denominations and faiths. They are producing one values-based message.

Our cyber dialogues are once again on the go and all you have to do is get onto the Internet, sign up and express your views. We are bringing these conversations, we are bridging the digital divide - I heard the discussion just now - to the rural communities of this country by giving those people and communities computers and a facilitator who will be the keyboard and fingers to the discussions with the specialists, and we are doing it across the SA Development Community region. Anything is possible where there is a will.

You have all been given these postcards. I will just read what it says, because you should not sign it if you cannot do this. Do not sign it if you cannot do this.

I reject violence against women and children. I pledge to expose and act against all forms of woman and child abuse at home, at school, at work and in the community.

We are not asking you to change the world. We are asking you to change your immediate environment, because if we start with the small frontiers, if we make our homes safe, half the battle is won.

We have spoken to these many constituencies . . . I am going over my time, I do realise that. I will draw to a close. I have so much to tell you. I could speak for another six hours at least, but I know you have such a huge programme.

We have spoken to organised labour. We have really tried to bring everybody on board. There is an opportunity here today in this House to decide on a plan of action. You can come together and say, ``We will make a difference’’, or else you can use this as an arena to score political points. I appeal to you that this goes beyond politics. Let us ensure that in the upcoming session, we produce that piece of legislation on sexual offences. Let us drive that process. This is in our power. We are parliamentarians. Let us talk about how we get it through. Let us make those decisions and make real those rights that we espouse to have delivered in the lives of the majority of the people.

One final thing: You can make a tangible difference. On 21 November, turn on your cell phone. Turn it on. You should SMS ``16 days’’ to the short code number 31616. That’s our campaign number for all the coming years. Your call will raise R5. All the mobile operators are not charging any fees. The people who are managing that programme are not charging us any fees. Of the money that is raised, the only thing that comes off that amount is VAT. The government always takes its share. VAT comes off there. The R5 goes to the Foundation for Human Rights. This money is earmarked and pledged to non-governmental organisations in rural areas where government services have not yet been expanded, so they meet a real need.

I appeal to you that when you speak at public occasions between now and then - we have put it in an independent space where people with partnerships exist. They exist and they work, and they are small organisations that normally do not benefit from this kind of support - before you tell everyone to turn their cell phones off, say to them, Now I am going to attract your attention. Turn your cell phone on and SMS16 days’’ to the number 31616. You will make a real difference. That R5 will go to the foundation and help victims of violence.’’

It is an important campaign for everyone, and we need you to champion this cause. Let us, together, wage peace instead of war. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mrs E S MABE: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, hon members and our guests, the 16 Days of Activism Of No Violence Against Women is the United Nations’ campaign which we as the South African government amended to include issues related to violence against children as well.

This campaign takes place annually between 25 November and 10 December. It is through campaigns such as these that our country shows its commitment on seeking to achieve a peaceful and secure country for all its citizens, young and old. Again, it is through campaigns such as these that our government realises the culture of caring societies within our communities and our country.

The purpose of this campaign is to increase the level of awareness amongst South Africans to challenge perpetrators of these offences to change their behaviour and to enhance an increased partnership between government, the private sector, civil society, organised labour, faith-based organisations and other groups of people who believe in the culture of a peaceful and caring society that our ANC-led government seeks to achieve.

The other purpose is to engage actively with men and boys in the discourse about combating violence in our homes, where we live, and our communities, where we socialise, and in the workplace, where we share ideas.

In order to achieve success in institutional mechanisms through public education and awareness campaigns such as 16 Days of Activism, the following institutional mechanisms have been created to address violence against women: Domestic violence courts have been established in each magistrates’ court; 52 specialised sexual offences courts have been established nationally; 7 Thuthuzela Care Centres, which are 24-hour one- stop services for victims to have access to police, counselling, doctors, court preparations and prosecutors, have been established and more are being planned; 41 Family Violence, Child Protection and Sexual Offences Units and 20 Child Protection Units have been established in the SA Police Service.

Various co-ordinating mechanisms to support integrated planning and implementation have been established and include role-players such as the police, health practitioners, probation officers, social workers and prosecutors.

On victim empowerment, various measures have been implemented to support victims, including the service charter for victims of crime and the minimum standards of service for victims of crime, and law reform to strengthen the protection of victim’s rights and various victim support services. The proposed sentencing framework Bill proposes improved provisions for victim involvement in the sentencing framework.

The campaign has brought together civil society, organisations, government and business to raise awareness by organising events to raise funds. The funds are to be disseminated to organise and help the people who are working in these fields now to help the affected people.

This campaign is done through the spirit of ubuntu by government in trying to reach the objective of restoring the human dignity of individuals who have been victims of these bad deeds and this will then allow victims to live more secure lives with their families and communities.

In conclusion, a lot of events related to this campaign will be taking place around the country. These events are hosted by government departments, faith-based organisations and progressive political parties, such as the ANC Women’s League, who will be supporting the campaign fully.

As in previous years, we still emphasise that we do not only encourage people to be aware or be active only during this period of 25 November to 10 December, but that this should be a campaign which suggests the adoption of a certain way of life to all citizens of our country. Let us all act against abuse. [Applause.]

Ms D ROBINSON: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister and members, South Africa has achieved much in the field of human rights in the past 11 years, but there are still serious challenges in implementing the laws that should bring law and order to our society. We cannot claim that our country is completely free, that human rights and dignity of all are respected, when 293 children were murdered during the first three months of last year and roughly 17 000 rapes of children are reported each year.

What is even more frightening to hear from prosecutors and social workers is that the age of those committing the offences, especially sexual offences, is decreasing. Can you believe that some children as young as 9 years old are committing rape, particularly in rural areas? This is a tragic set of circumstances.

What gives rise to this? It is deprivation, lack of secure and supportive family structures, extreme poverty and the scourge of alcoholism. Now, how does one deal with offenders who are still young children? Imprisonment is clearly inappropriate. More rehabilitation centres are needed, more counsellors and social workers, using the techniques of restorative justice, where interventions empower victims and their extended family networks and involve perpetrators in the restorative process.

Family group conferencing must be offered to help families work through issues of domestic violence, helping them to decide what to do about children who are causing difficulties. Restorative justice is about helping people take responsibility, repairing harm caused and finding ways of keeping people supported within their communities.

Opportunities need to be created to find better solutions on a case- by- case basis. It’s a way of helping wrongdoers do better and so, in the long run, the victims and society also benefit. This can only happen if we seriously review the resources and funding given to welfare and the court system, and the promotion of the right ideals. Underfunding, and sometimes underspending, is at the root of the problems in the judicial system.

Why is it that forensic services are not able to deliver the results that prosecutors need to secure convictions? Vital DNA results are simply not made available because of staff shortages in the DNA laboratories.

Sometimes children who are victims of abuse arrive at court in a suicidal condition when having to testify against their perpetrators. This is because social services have not had the staff or the resources to remove the victims from the place of danger and they had to continue living with the perpetrators who committed the abuse. Can you imagine the fear that these people have to live with?

The appointment of a children’s commissioner, for which there has been provision in the Western Cape provincial constitution since 1998, could assist in dealing with the problem of the high incidence of child offenders.

Family lawyers tell us that the courts and the police do not receive specialised training for dealing with people who have experienced extreme trauma. They are often unable to deal with the victims sensitively because of the pressure under which they work. People who are hurt are again victimised in the court system. They see no justice done and there is no change to their lives. Many women are victims of physical and psychological abuse even after divorce. Power play becomes very important, and many women have to struggle to obtain their maintenance payments, having to prove that their ex- husbands have the means to pay.

It is unacceptable that there is no legal aid for maintenance cases. Many mothers and their children suffer extreme deprivation while trying to prove that their spouses can afford to support them. These double standards need to be stopped.

I appeal to the Deputy Minister to investigate these matters and to implement changes. Having more divorce courts, staffed by sympathetic and understanding women prosecutors and magistrates, would help to reduce the backlogs in the system and reduce some of the stress suffered. Obtaining a divorce in these courts as opposed to the High Court is also more affordable, so the numbers of these courts should be increased.

While I acknowledge the need to create an awareness of the abuse of women and children, and applaud the Deputy Minister for her initiative . . . [Time expired.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Can I appeal to members to note that there is a clock on the podium, and if your time has expired, you just have to leave. Ms A N T MCHUNU: Chairperson, I thank the Deputy Minister for this enlightening debate. Where there is abuse, children are the first to suffer because they do not get love and sometimes do not even get food.

These children may also grow up to be adults who abuse others because they did not get love. Today we are debating the 16 Days of Activism against the abuse of women, children, men and society at large.

When we talk about abuse, we do not only refer to one form of abuse, just women only, but it includes men as well.

Abuse can be physical, economic, emotional and spiritual and all these aspects have got to be taken care of. Maslow’s theory of needs states that one has to satisfy the primary needs of anyone and this is where the babies, because they cannot help themselves, find themselves marginalised because they cannot say I need food’’ orthat and that’’, if the parents are poor or the mothers are not working.

So, we really appreciate that the department has taken it upon itself to have this campaign, and we hope all the departments and in fact everybody will join hands and make sure that this campaign is a success. The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chair, I just wanted to check if the hon member is prepared to take a question?

Ms A N T MCHUNU: Yes, I am prepared to take a question.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: The question is basically related to the extent to which that child is being suffocated and, therefore, the child is being abused. Is she not finding it very ironic that she is abusing that child through the way she is holding it?

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Continue, hon member.

Ms A N T MCHUNU: Thank you very much.

Many of us have lost our human dignity because of living silently with the scourge of abuse. Our government needs to develop programmes that are going to deal with this. One will also note that in these days when there is such a high prevalence of HIV/Aids, we have got to start by caring for children, giving them all the love, comfort and training of the communities, because some people do not know that the children who are orphans need so much more love than children who have parents.

Drop-in centres have to be provided and the communities may provide these by offering their rondawels but they would need to support them. Family members have to love and care for each other and stop hitting each other, and then extend their love to their neighbours and communities, thus preventing or lessening abuse by diluting conflicts with love.

Now, we have to pick up that bundle of love and joy, and bond with it so that it will be able to give love to other people when it is older. [Time expired.] Thank you very much. The campaign is supported. [Laughter.][Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order, please, hon members. I will call on hon Mohlaehela, and I believe this is her maiden speech.

Ms B L MATLHOAHELA: Chairperson, hon Minister and members of the House, thank you for giving me this opportunity to bring out my vote against this abuse in our community.

I want to mention a very sensitive point with regard to the abuse of children. It relates to the child grant, which is abused by unemployed and drunken fathers. They use this money for themselves instead of using it for their children. Thus the grant becomes the unemployed father’s grant rather than that of the child. There are also mothers who participate in these deeds. The child will go hungry for most of the month. This is a great abuse against the child. Social services officials do not monitor and follow up on these situations properly. Where there are organisations trying to act against these practices, we find leaders, local ANC members, who act against organisations who stand up against this. I speak from personal experience. [Interjections.] Hon members may laugh, but I speak from personal experience, where members of organisations are threatened. [Interjections.] I support the action. [Time expired.]

Mr N D HENDRICKSE: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, thank you for your introduction. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order, hon members.

Mr N D HENDRICKSE: I think it was heartwarming.

We are looking at a very serious problem in our country. While this campaign has heightened awareness about sexual and other forms of abuse of vulnerable groupings, much still needs to be done to give the necessary effect to the programme. Too many children in gaols still get sexually abused. I want to stop here, and I am glad the Deputy Minister is here. If my figures are correct, we are talking about 20 000 children in gaols. That is one child too many, and I think now that we have a cluster situation, we need to look at that very seriously.

Much needs to be done about the overcrowding and miserable conditions that lead to abuse. Increasingly, male abuse victims are not being given the same treatment as females, yet some counselling centres report increasing male abuse. How can we create a safer and more secure societal environment if the overall government policy arena in some departments is not facilitative of the process?

Furthermore, the aged and disabled still remain soft targets of attacks. Indeed, while policies may be encouraging, government needs to have a zero- tolerance approach to perpetrators of violence against these vulnerable groups. There needs to be a social contract between communities, government and business that will drive moral regeneration towards advancing the cause of these groupings. I also want to add that our television programmes are not helping us very much at the moment as far as violence is concerned.

Various issues relating to the girl child growing up in an increasingly hostile world where she could end up on the wrong side of statistics require serious attention. [Time expired.]

Ms M P THEMBA: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, hon members, I would first like to say to hon Mohlaehela that she still needs to learn what the 16 days of activism is all about. It is the ANC that made it possible for this society to realise that there should be 16 days of activism. [Interjections.] It means that during these 16 days of activism, there will be no violence against women and children. The campaign will start on the 25th of this month and end on 10 December. This is an international campaign seeking to raise awareness and mobilise solidarity with women exposed to abuse and violence, more often than not perpetrated against them by men. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order!

Ms M P THEMBA: I hope that this period will indeed assist all of us, as South Africans, to take up the fight to uproot the evil of violence, directed especially at women and children, as well as the elderly and the disabled. I am confident that we all realise that to defeat this monster we need to unite, combine our resources and work together, as government, as civil society, the private sector and the churches. We need to create a powerful force that will give no space to those who commit these inhuman acts.

We need to bring about a consciousness amongst our men and boys - and women also – indeed, amongst all of us, that abuse of women, children, the elderly and the disabled does not only inflict injury on the victims, but through these deeds the perpetrators deprave and debase themselves to such an extent that they will never lead a normal life.

These 16 days will provide us with another opportunity to take stock of our progress in dealing firmly with violence and abuse. It also presents us with another chance to look at different strategies and measures to involve all South Africans in these in order to be more effective in dealing with the challenges facing each vulnerable group. We need to ask ourselves whether there has been any progress, and if not, what the reasons for our failures are.

We must again look closely at whether we have managed to align our work with other processes undertaken by government and other structures of civil society. We need to make an inspection in order to avoid duplication. We all agree that we need to integrate our programmes as government, civil society and the private sector. It is encouraging that over the years, since the inception of the 16 days, it has grown to include all government departments in South Africa, and by government departments I mean the gender focal point in every government department. The Deputy Minister said the offices on the status of women in all the provinces supplied us with the programme of action of each and every province. I know that on the 25th of this month, there will be an event at Schoemansdal. I know that there will be an event in my own constituency, at Masoi. I ask all members to look at that programme of action so that we can support all the activities that will be taking place in the respective provinces.

Furthermore, we should engage in our work in a manner that ensures that the victims or survivors of abuse and violence do not themselves become trapped in the cycle of violence by becoming abusers and perpetrators of violence. What makes it possible for the perpetrators of these acts of violence and abuse to continue is the culture of shame and silence surrounding abuse and violence, especially when it is committed by a family member or someone who is trusted. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, I would like to thank the colleagues for their inputs. We have all heard the emphasis on trying to create families because this is the basic building block of a society that is strong and resilient to crime.

The hon Mabe described the need for that and we must respond in a way that is so important. I think this is one issue where we see communities that are so vulnerable and often compromised by poverty. Poor people are not bad. Poverty knows no class boundaries.

We make some strange straight-line associations. There are thousands of very good people who have safe homes and who provide safe and caring environments for their children.

We know that poverty puts people and families at risk. We need to talk about how we get a critical mass of this country’s people who are firmly committed, in the daily experience, to the values that underpin our Constitution in spite of the many challenges that face us.

The hon Robinson described an incredibly bleak picture. I need to remind her that it is this government that has put all the reform legislation into place. I seek no beef with you. I am not trying to attack you. What I am trying to say is that the problem with your description does this. In the face of the incredible and remarkable delivery over ten years on the legislative phase, we have over 50 specialist sexual courts and the Thuthuzela care centres, and we have still not managed to reach all our people. That is our tragedy and the thing we mourn over most.

The President always stands up in Cabinet and says to us: ``Have you made a difference today?’’ In terms of child support alone, literally millions and more than 40% of this budget go to the basic social care of people in this country. This is an extraordinary shift in expenditure that speaks of care, of transformation.

We do admit that in the face of the challenges that face us in terms of the numbers of children that need basic health care because of the deprivations of the past, we have yet to push harder still. In the face of our understanding that while we would enjoy diverting even more funds in this direction, we will do it at the expense of housing and other services that are critical.

I am appealing to you, hon Robinson, and my other colleagues in this House, to consider what those partnerships are that are going to assist us to improve the response. How are we, in our own communities, providing family support systems when we know that we can stand up here and say social services is lacking? What are we doing about providing support systems for families at a local level in helping and assisting? These are the symptoms of a caring society, trying to make government work and change the lives of the critical mass of our people.

Our government has put its commitment behind these children and women that very often face dire levels of violence. Each one is a tragedy for the state. How do we, as public representatives, but also as fellow human beings, assist in trying to ensure that additional partnerships are put into place, so that we reach more people together? This is the stuff of nation-building.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Deputy Minister, could you round off, please?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: The hon Mchunu spoke about poverty and its effects. I would like to congratulate the hon Mohlaehela on her first input. It is easy to describe children whose drunken fathers abuse them. It’s an atrocious situation. The majority of the children that benefit from this assistance do so in good families. How do we get those values that are entrenched in families to spread to others?

Hon Hendrickse, your statistics on children are absolutely incorrect, by thousands. Last year the highest point was 3 000 children. Let me just say that in terms of our law, it was 3 000 too many. It is not 20 000. We have a task team that has brought this down to 1 600. My view is that we need to do better. I will agree with you, but we are doing a lot better than you were describing. You are quite right. How do we make these restorative justice models reach those young perpetrators who do stand a chance? How do we give them a second chance?

We talk about the awareness campaign. We need to change behaviour and attitudes. Let us take this beyond awareness and make the mechanisms that the state has put in place meaningful. Let us assist in creating mechanisms to reach more people, find positive values that unite us and ask people in this room – the men - to use their peer pressure to say to other men, I am sorry, but we won’t associate with you, unless you will get help. Be supportive. People don’t do it.

Don’t support those shebeens and bars in all our towns and cities that allow underage drinkers, or report them to the police. This requires practical action. I call upon you to assist us in putting the very good mechanisms we have in place, to make them reach more people. I thank you very much. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I would like to thank the Deputy Minister for opening and also closing the debate. Thank you very much.

REPEAL OF BLACK ADMINISTRATION ACT AND AMENDMENT OF CERTAIN LAWS BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, hon members and delegates, comrades and friends, you have just heard the conclusion of the debate on 16 Days of Activism, which in essence is a campaign to create greater awareness for the values enshrined in our Constitution. It is a campaign to create awareness of the fact that violence and abuse are unacceptable in a constitutional state like ours.

I am to lead a debate on the Repeal of Black Administration Act and Amendment of Certain Laws Bill, and I would like to say that there is a connection between the debate we have just had and the very Repeal of Black Administration Act and Amendment of Certain Laws Bill. I want to say that it is an indication of government’s commitment to strive to create a better life for the people of South Africa.

The repeal before this House, in honesty, is that of laws that have caused so much suffering amongst our people. I thought it is apt for me to cite Mr Cyril Ramaphosa, today a businessman, once a member of this House, who even led the Constitutional Assembly. I thought I should refer to a very moving article that he wrote on 18 September 2005, when he heard that government is to amend the Black Administration Act. This is what he wrote. I thought this was really moving and it’s something I should share with members. He wrote that:

The repeal of this law is a moment worth marking, remembering and celebrating. It marks a major milestone, albeit largely symbolic, in the development of our society from one which justifies the statutory subjugation of one person by another, to a society which recognises, protects and advances the dignity and rights of each and every person.

But this is a moment also to lament the wasted decades of colonial rule and apartheid. Lives were ruined, human potential was brutally crushed and a nation’s prosperity was held ransom to the fears and prejudices of a few. Sitting here in a democratic South Africa, it is easy to forget the hate and bitterness that laws such as the Black Administration Act generated.

Members, it is consequently with great jubilation that I open this debate, which, I am confident, will be concluded by a unanimous vote in favour of the Bill. There is much more to what appears to be a technical Bill than meets the eye. It signifies the disappearance of one of the remaining racist laws on our Statute Book with an enormous amount of baggage. Not only are the implications of this old statute discriminatory and offensive but even its wording is archaic, discriminatory and offensive in the extreme.

Provinces will play a key role in seeing to the repeal of the Black Administration Act. Although today we see Parliament approve the mechanism through which this Act will be repealed, there are some provisions of the Act that can, unfortunately, not be repealed until such time as substitute legislation has been put in place.

The incremental approach adopted in the Bill is a necessary evil. We are adopting this approach not to prolong the life of the Act but rather to ensure that governance is not affected negatively. I must say part of the problem with the delay was precisely because people couldn’t find the way out of the phased approach that we have adopted. I think it is important that people recognise that we had to speed it up, otherwise we would still remain with this obnoxious law on our Statute Book.

I think it is important that hon members be reminded of what has to be done before the Act, in its entirety, can be repealed. And I am not going to repeat this, because I think the members in the House will do so. You will realise that, in fact, there are certain provisions that require special attention and that, apart from the select committee having identified areas for amendments, work that still has to be done has to be considered in relation to some of the sections of this Act. Let me say that the main thrust of my message today is to representatives of the provinces, in particular, KwaZulu-Natal, Free State, North West, Eastern Cape, Limpopo and Mpumalanga. My message is rather a plea to these provinces to ensure that their provincial legislation, which is intended to substitute some of the provisions of the Act, is in place before the date contained in the sunset clauses. That date, as you know, colleagues, is 31 July 2006. However, the sooner all provinces have their legislation in place, the sooner we can, once and for all, be rid of one of the last vestiges of apartheid.

I am heartened by the knowledge that most provinces, I am advised, have reached an advanced stage in promoting the required legislation. It is not only the provinces, of course, that had to partake in this, but even some departments. I must say to you that we are in discussion and in consultation with those departments.

I also would like to say to members that next year is the 10th anniversary of our Constitution, and the Bantu Administration Act was one of the cornerstones of apartheid, and that, in fact, we can be creative and use the occasion - that is, the consultations and the public hearings - to promote values enshrined in the Constitution. We must allow our people to draw on their experiences. They are the ones who know and who have experienced the impact of the Bantu Administration Act. We need to use the occasion, as we promote the Constitution, to allow our people to really be part of the new policies as will be indicated, of course, by the laws that should be before the parliaments of the provinces I have just mentioned.

I have been made aware of the fact that both the portfolio committee and the select committee dealing with this Bill have, in their reports, requested various role-players to report to them by 31 January 2006 on progress made on what they are required to do in anticipation of 31 July. I shall be taking particular note of the outcome of these report backs, with the view to taking any remedial action that might be necessary.

. . . e ne bathong, ga ke batle go dira jalo. Nna ke eletsa gore morago ga 31 Ferikgong, fa le biditse dipegelo tse, e be re kgona go dirisana le batho ba rona. Re buisane le bona, re utlwe maikutlo a bona. Ka tsela eo e tlare fa re ntse re ntsha The Bantu Administration Act, e be e le gore re thusa batho ba ga rona, re a itiisa ka kitso ya ditshwanelo tsa rona tse di leng mo Molaotheong. (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)

[ . . . this is not what I intend to do. I would like us to work together with our people after 31 January, when reports are recalled. We should talk to them to hear their views. In so doing we shall be doing away with the Bantu Administration Act in such a way that it will help our people to consolidate their knowledge of rights entrenched in our Constitution.] We can do a lot, for example, in promoting equality, because inadvertently we will have to deal with that issue, because part of the repeal also relates to what were supposed to be powers given to the chiefs and headmen. In the process, as we do that, let us use the occasion very creatively to create awareness about the new values that are enshrined in our Constitution. In that way we will also get a buy-in from our people, because we would be promoting dialogue.

In conclusion, let me express my appreciation to my comrade, Kgoshi Mokoena and the members of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, for their contributions in getting the Bill ready for this debate, and for the useful amendments of both Houses that they promoted to improve the eventual outcome of the Bill, the enactment of which will go down in history as a milestone, but of course, remember that the effects of apartheid are systemic and we need to keep on moving forward. We chip at one block and move and chip at another. Thank you. [Applause.]

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, colleagues and hon members, let me thank the Minister for outlining and telling us exactly what this Bill is all about. If I had my way, I would only say: ``Ke laka leo’’ [It is my word] and sit down.

This Bill, as outlined by the hon Minister, was aimed at controlling the movements and the type of life black people had to live in this country. There are pieces of legislations here that will have to be repealed immediately, and those that have to be repealed on or before 31 July 2006.

During the deliberations, the committee directed departments to investigate and report back to Parliament on findings of issues raised during those deliberations. As you have heard, these Acts were aimed at blacks living under the traditional leaders’ rule. It therefore affects six provinces where there are traditional leaders, specifically.

There was a time in this country when traditional leaders were at the mercy of a Governor-General. He could appoint and depose any kgoshi [chief] without giving any reason. Black people, in terms of this Act, did not have power over their own land. They were told how to live with their families. What made it even worse is that it controlled blacks on where to be and where not to be. It just fell short of telling blacks on how to do “that other serious stuff”.

Members will recall that some sections of the black community were called by some derogatory names such as Hottentots, bastards, etc. These clauses will have to be flushed out of our statutes. The Governor-General was the supreme chief of all the black people in this country. Therefore, his words were the law.

Let me warn our interpreters that at some point I will be converting to Sepedi.

This Bill also determined which kind of medicine had to be given to black people. That was the law. These kinds of things were done just to make sure that movement and lives of black people were limited or controlled.

E be e le molao wo o bego o laela batho ba mmala wo moso gore ba swanetše go šoma kae le gona ba lefšwe bokae. E be e le molao wo o laelago batho ba baso gore ba ka rua dikgomo tše kae, e sego ka moo bona ba nyakago. Ge o be o ka fetiša, o be o le molato. E be e le molao wo o bego o beetšwe batho ba baso gore ba ka tlalea mang, wa mohuta mang, le gona neng. Efela ge e le motho wa mmala wo mongwe wa go se swane le wa gago, o be o ka se ke wa mo tlalea.

Molao wo o be o bile o laela batho ba baso gore meetse ao rena batho ba bagolo re kago a nwa e be a mohuta mang - ke ra digalagala goba wona madila. Le gona e be e le molao wo o bego o laela gore ge o le motho moso o be o swanetše go reka madila a mohuta mang. Ke molao wo o bego o beetšwe rena ba mmala wo moso.

Ka gona, ke nako ya gore molao wo re o tumuleng ka medu, re o lahleleng kua kgolekgole, ka gore o a nkga! Ke re o a nkga! O a re šišimiša! Ga re sa o nyaka. Ebile ke molao wo o bego o leka go go dumelela, o le motho moso, gore ge o sepela go ya madišong goba go ya dipapading, o ka swara thoka goba sebetša sa mohuta mang. Le ge e se sebetša se bogale seo se kago tshwenya motho, ba be ba go laela gore o sware sa mohuta mang. Ke molao woo o bego o beetšwe rena bana ba thari ye ntsho.

Ke a leboga ka gore, go molao wo re re ga geno ke thabeng! Ke kgale o re swina! Sepela gabotse molao tena! (Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)

[That was the kind of Act that dictated where Black people should be employed and how much they should earn. It was the kind of Act that dictated how many cattle Black people should own and not how much they could afford to. It was a criminal offence to exceed the expected number. It was the kind of Act that was meant for Black people to know who they should report, the status of that person, and when they should report him or her.

This Act restricted what Black people should buy and drink. I am referring to alcoholic beverages. The Act was only meant for us, Black people.

It is therefore time to uproot it, and throw it far away because it stinks! I repeat that it stinks! It is intolerable! We do not want it anymore. It is also the kind of Act that restricted the kind of weapons Black people should carry wherever they went. It restricted which weapons we should carry even if the weapons were harmless. This is the Act that was meant for us, the African people. I am grateful that we are doing away with it. It has done enough damage already. We are done with this Act.]

As you have heard, Chairperson, I am not just trying to fathom all the issues I have raised. I am doing this because I have confidence in my detachment that they will fathom out all the issues that I have touched on in passing. These are advantages of working with dedicated members of this committee. That is the reason why members of all political parties in this committee voted in favour, and they were so consistent and reasonable. To my colleagues, I can only repeat what I said in our last meeting - that no matter how deep the bottle is, the cream will always be on top.

Hon Minister, in your department we have people who are prepared, willing, ready and dedicated to serve this country. If we can have more people of this calibre, this country will be a better place to live in. I am referring, hon Minister and Chairperson, to people like Mr Lauwrence Basset, who was leading this team. It was himself, Mr Molalathoko and Mrs Skhosana. These three musketeers know what they are doing in their departments. If there is a notch or space for them to be promoted, do not hesitate to do so. Therefore, to this trio, I can only say ``Teamwork makes common people attain uncommon results’’. History remembers us not by our looks but by the work we have done. Ke rata go fetša ka gore, go ja kudu ga se go bolaya tlala. Ke le monamolomo, ke boletše, monatsebe o kwele. Ke tšhaba go hlwa kgorong. E re ke šieleng ba bangwe. Mošate! [In conclusion, I believe that I said a mouthful. I am sure that you have heard what I had to say. I do not want to take much of your time. Let me give others a chance. Thank you.]

Ms F NYANDA: Chairperson, hon members, Minister, today we are repealing the Black Administration Act 38 of 1927, which was one of the principal mechanisms designed for regulating the lives of Africans under apartheid.

South Africa will never be the same. The ANC government has and will always address the imbalances created by the former government. We have received overwhelming support for the repeal of most parts of this Act, such as section 11, which deals with the legal capacity of black women in relation to leasehold ownership. Nevertheless, to a few, change is pain.

Let me borrow the words of Charles Anderson Dana when he said, “When a dog bites a man, that is not news, but when a man bites a dog, that is news.” Although this was said in a media context, when looking at it literally, this is the stereotypical way of thinking of certain unrealistic minorities.

Umfati nakafelwe yindvodza bekutsiwa akahlale phansi, angababuki bantfu emehlweni - ngobe angumfelokati. Kwakutsiwa akambonywe ngetingubo; kuhanjwe kuyewutsengwa libhokisi lendvodza yakhe angaliboni nangeliso. Sizatfu kwakukutsi abegcilatwa umfati.

Nangabe umfati agula aye esibhedlela kufanele kutsi ahlindvwe, bekutsiwa angeke akhone kutisayinela lifomu lekuvuma, kodvwa kufanele kutsi kubuye indvodza yakhe itemsayinela. Nome angafa lomfati kungabi nandzaba ngobe kufe umfati. Siyambonga hulumende we-ANC losikhiphe eGibhithe wasifaka enkhululekweni.

Nangabe kwentekile umfati kufanele kutsi ahambe ayewutsenga indlu nome imoto kutsiwe akakwati kutitsengela leto tintfo, kufuneke indvodza yakhe kube ngiyo lebuyako itemsayinela. Ibuye indvodza isayine nome ngabe lendvodza ayisebenti, ite nemali kodvwa kutawubhaliswa libito lendvodza kantsi lemali yalomfati. Siyakubonga hulumende we-ANC. (Translation of Siswati paragraphs follows.)

[When a woman lost her husband, she would be ordered to be inactive and not look people in the eyes, because she was a widow. It was said she should be covered with blankets; they would go and buy her husband’s coffin without her seeing it. The reason was that a woman was oppressed.

When a woman is sick and she goes to hospital for an operation, she cannot sign the consent form - her husband must come and sign for her. Even if she passes away, it does not matter because it is a woman. We thank the ANC-led government for taking us out of Egypt and giving us our freedom.

Should a woman want to buy a house or a car, she would not be able to buy such things on her own - her husband must come and sign on her behalf. The husband will come and sign even if he is not working and has no money. His name will nevertheless be written there, although the money belongs to the woman. We thank the ANC-led government.]

I appreciate the vigour and commitment displayed by those who believe in the liberation of women. To those who still see women as minors, the Act has now been repealed. Pull up your socks and strive to meet us on the way. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr L H FIELDING: Hon Chair, members of the House, visitors, ladies and gentlemen, at this point in time, we can only make a few general remarks on the intended removal of certain sections and clauses of this Act, because it takes time to study all the possible implications that would result from the repeal of any of the sections or clauses under review.

We should remember that we are dealing here with customs and laws governing an age-old way of life, which is still the preferred way of life for many of our citizens. We advise that nothing should be removed or changed without proper consultation and consent of the communities concerned.

We recommend that, in the process of consultation, the communities should be properly represented by competent legal council to ensure that justice prevails, and that the cost thereof be carried by the state.

We fully agree that all discriminatory and redundant provisions should be repealed, but with due regard to the protection of vested rights, such as customary and traditional rights relating to property and land rights.

We caution that although there is a need to remove all racially based laws and practices as speedily as possible, we should take time to carefully consider all applications. We are dealing with traditional customs and values that have been developed over a very long period.

We urge the authorities to treat the question of traditional rights, laws and customs with the respect it deserve because this has formed a solid foundation on which our present society has been built.

We specially welcome the removal of restrictive clauses pertaining to the rights of women and marriages, bringing it in line with the Constitution. We also appreciate the eradication of restrictive clauses regarding the property rights of minors, who are governed by customary law and are now also enjoying the protection of the High Court as the upper guardian of all minors. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr P C McKENZIE (Western Cape): Thank you, Chair. It’s an honour for me to be in this House and also to speak on this topic. My greetings go to everyone, also to the Minister.

I want to say that this is of course a historical moment. I stand here representing the Western Cape, and all the political parties within the Western Cape have approved this steps. I want to say that it is a little bit strange, in terms of the hon member who has just spoken before me, because that was not the sentiments of the DA in the Western Cape. They were very clear that these laws should be amended and be done away with at any cost. [Applause.]

Therefore, I want to say . . . [Interjections.] She can say as much as she wants to. I was chairing that meeting and I have one or two DA members here with me who were in that meeting and who are supporting what I have said.

Let me say that even though most of the clauses being amended affect the six provinces, it had an effect even on those provinces that were not affected, because I remember that we always had a slogan in years gone by:``An injury to one is an injury to all’’. [Applause.] When our people suffered . . . [Interjections.] It’s surprising that it’s that very group that is making a noise. I wonder whether you are sorry that these clauses are being repealed because it takes away some of your privileges? You must tell us! You see! [Laughter.]

We want to say that this Bill has hurt all our people. One thinks of one of the things that had to be changed, which was to give blacks property rights. It’s a total disgrace that black people, . . . [Laughter] . . who were born in this . . . [Interjections.] Look at who is fighting against this! Look! [Laughter.] The person who is fighting against this Bill is a person who lived under the rights of this area being a coloured preferential area, stopping black people from getting jobs within this province.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member. Hon members! Hon Ralane please! Hon Lamoela. Can I request the member just to be quiet until you all realise once again that we are in the House. Then we will continue, because you are making a lot of noise. It doesn’t give you permission to make a noise if the member is saying things that you don’t agree with. Can you please . . . Hon Thetjeng and hon Krumbock! Ms Terblanche, you are the whip of the DA. Can you please make sure that your members respect this House?

Mr P C McKENZIE (Western Cape): These laws have caused a lot of pain and I see that it still causes pain to the people who were affected by these laws. I want to say that what is before us is very good. The fact of the matter is that women are now getting their normal rights here. We remember in the 1950s, when women marched to Pretoria for their rights, and eventually we are seeing those rights being given to them today.

We want to say that these are the people who were treated as foreigners in the land of their birth. The clauses that are being amended restore their dignity. And each one of us should be part of supporting something like that which regulates, makes right and tries to heal the wounds and the pains that were caused through the centuries.

This is why, Madam Chair, every single party in the Western Cape supports this Bill, supports these amendments, supports the repeal, and all of them are supporting it without any reservation. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Mnu M A MZIZI: Ngqongqoshe, malungu ahloniphekile, okubi nje ukuthi angiliphathanga ipasi lami. Bengizovele ngiwulaxaze laphaya phansi. [Uhleko.] [Minister and hon members, the sad thing is that I don’t have my passport with me. I was going to throw it down here. [Laughter.]]

Chairperson, the Black Administration Act is one of those laws and administration that did not recognise our traditional and indigenous laws. It is for that reason that laws that were discriminatory to the aborigines of this country and in the Republic of South Africa do not have a place in our democracy.

The IFP supports the repeal of the Black Administration Act and Amendment of Certain Laws. While we agree with the repeal, we need to be courteous to certain laws that are our custom and traditional to the indigenous people of this country as well as other ethnic groupings.

Amasiko esintu ajulile. Ukujiya nokujula kwawo kungechazwe kalula njengoba ngimi lapha. Asiyishintshe imithetho kodwa akungasilahlisi amasiko ethu. Lapha sikhuluma kokunye ngemishado noma ngabe eyaluphi uhlanga kodwa angizwa lapho kukhulunywa khona ngokungena, okungelinye lamasiko omshado wesintu. Emshadweni wesintu inkosikazi eshonelwe yindoda yethulwa isincwazi ngabakubo lapho ezalwa khona. Angazi-ke noma emthethweni wasentshonalanga bayosivuma yini isincwazi - ngoba phela sesivumelekile ukushada nezinye izinhlanga – ukuthi bayothi isincwazi khona kanye yini khona lokho?

Asikwemukele ukuthi lo Mthethosivivinywa awukaphothulwa. Kusenezinye izingxenye zawo lo Mthetho okufanele zihlolisiswe phambi kokuguqulwa kwawo wonke lo Mthetho. Sisalindele umbiko wezinqumo noma nezincomo zomhlaka-31 Januwari 2006. Empeleni besingakhuluma sigeqe amagula ngalo Mthetho. Uke wakhuluma umame lapha ekhuluma ngabantu besimame. Kwakusenyeza impela kakhulu uma umuntu wesimame ethi uyofuna indlu bese kuthiwa akahambe ayoshada manje noma aye laphayana ehostela, akhethe isigqoko abuye esesiphethe bese-ke enikezwa indlu, emdala engako. Ngale kwalokho kuthiwe akahambe ayofuna umntwana womfana osenepasi – mhlawumbe uneminyaka eyi-18 – eze naye afike ambeke phezulu kube nguyena omengamele engunina. Okwasigqilaza ukuthi amakhosikazi ahloniphekile ashade nabafowabo noma ayoshada nomunye umuntu nje ngoba kufanele athole indlu. Kugcine ngokuthi uma esethatha inkosikazi lo mfana bese emxosha athi akaphume esho kunina ngoba umuzi ethi owakhe. Ngakho-ke sithi nali ibhokisi lo Mthetho obizwa phecelezi ‘Black Administration Act’ siyawungcwaba. Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Our cultures are very rich. Their maturity and richness could not easily be explained here. Let us change the laws, but they must not cause us to lose our cultures. We are talking about marriage, among people of whatever race, but I don’t hear you talking about inheriting your brother’s wife, which is part of the culture of traditional marriage. In a traditional marriage, a woman whose husband passed away is cleansed at home, where she was born. I don’t know if they will allow cleansing in Western marriage. We are now allowed to have mixed marriages. They will ask what cleansing is all about.

We must agree that this Bill has not yet been finalised. There are certain areas that need to be scrutinised before we change the whole Bill. We are waiting for the report and recommendations of 31 January 2006. We were going to complete this Bill. A female speaker spoke about women before. It really terrified us when a female person applied for a house. She would be told to go and get married or go and fetch a man from the hostel and then she would get the house. As an alternative, she would be told fetch her son, if he is 18 years old, and bring him along. In so doing he would be in charge of his mother. What was hard was that a respected woman would have to marry one of her brothers or somebody else in order to get a house. When the young boy gets married, he will evict his mother and claim that the house belongs to him. Therefore, we are saying: Here is the coffin of the law called the Black Administration Act. We are burying it. Thank you. [Applause.]]

Mr A T MANYOSI: Madam Chairperson, I just want to start by saying that the amendments to any law that emanates from apartheid should not be inconsistent with the Constitution, with regard to an individual’s dignity, including the dignity of widows. I’m just referring to the ‘ngena’ custom, which may not really be protecting the dignity of those that are undergoing the ‘ngena’ custom. . . [Laughter] . . . and it must not be inconsistent with public policy.

The repeal of the Black Administration Act and Amendment of Certain Laws Bill represents giant steps in our long journey towards a society free from racial discrimination and separate development. In that context, we can proudly say that today we are celebrating a historic event in the development of our society, the partial and gradual repeal and erosion from our statutes of some of the last vestiges of the colonial-cum-apartheid rule.

I will particularly direct my contribution in this debate at the procedure employed at the appointment of chiefs and headman, their mode of operation. I will also touch on the origins and the facts of the Act. Section 2(7) of the Act provides that the Governor-General may recognise or appoint and depose any person as a chief of a black tribe, and may make regulations prescribing the duties, powers, privileges and conditions of service of such persons. It further provides that the Governor-General may, in certain circumstances, make an order awarding to or imposing on the person recognised or appointed as a chief such of the property rights or obligations of the previous chief as the Governor-General may deem just.

The section further provides that any person affected by an order made as described earlier may petition the Governor-General for the amplification, variation and interpretation of the provisions of the order, in respect of which the governor-general may make such order thereon as he may deem fit. On the other hand, the section further empowers the Minister or his delegate to appoint any person as headman over a tribal settlement or as headman of the blacks in any area, and may appoint any person to act temporarily as chief or headman in the place of or in addition to the ordinary incumbent of the post and may also depose such person.

Section 12(1) of the Act provides that the Minister may authorise a recognised or appointed black chiefs or headman to hear civil cases arising from the indigenous law and custom, and which arise between two blacks that are resident within his area of jurisdiction, but he is not competent to decide on matters of divorce or nullity of marriage.

Another important feature of the law is that it was considered to be part of the civilising mission of the colonialists to allow the so-called acculturated Africans exemption from customary law in favour of what was thought to be the more advanced system of metropolitan law. This policy was first implemented in Natal and was expanded to other provinces in term of section 31 of the Act.

The Act neither provides nor elaborates on a procedure for the appointment of traditional leaders in terms of custom, in which case the communities would play a major role. Clause 1(2) of this Bill seeks to repeal this arrogant and arbitrary section of the Act, but such repeal can only take place once provincial legislation has been passed as envisaged in the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Act, the deadline of which is 31 July 2006.

I said I would touch on the origins and the facts of the Act and the justification for its repeal. When the Nationalists came into power in 1924, the colour issue began to assume an urgency and paramountcy in South African politics that had been on a lesser scale before. In 1925, General J B M Hertzog, who was both the Prime Minister and the Minister of Native Affairs, insisted that the African franchise in the Cape Province had become a danger to the whole of white South Africa. The rest of the other provinces did not afford Africans franchise. He strongly argued that in 12 of 51 constituencies where the franchise applied, the African vote had played a critical role and that such influence would grow and eventually lead to a demand for the extension of the African vote to other provinces - an eventuality which, according to his contention, would not be tolerated by white nationalism because it would mean the eventual swamping of the White voters.

Subsequent to 1926, Hertzog therefore submitted a number of Bills to Parliament, amongst them the Representation of the Natives’ Bill, the Native Council Bill, the Native Land Bill, the Coloured Persons Rights Bill and, most importantly, the Native Administration Bill, which has over the years become the Black Administration Act we are now in the process of repealing.

The underlying purpose of these pieces of legislation was to ensure that, through entrenchment, the government of South Africa was firmly in white hands and to keep South Africa a white man’s land. The Native Administration Act, 38 of 1927, therefore, provided for the first uniform framework for the system of separate native administration in the union of South Africa.

It was to be part of a myriad apartheid laws that created a labyrinthine system of governance of Africans and was one of the principal mechanism for regulating the lives of Africans under colonial and apartheid rule.

The abhorrent segregationists act, which ensured the exclusion of South Africans from mainstream South African politics, later found expression in the Black Authorities Act, the Self-Governing Territories Constitution Act and the Status Act in respect of the former Transkei, Bophuthatswana, Venda and Ciskei, as well as many other laws affecting virtually every facet of the lives of African people.

The Black Administration Act was to be the basis for segregation and separate administration and development. Indeed, it had the intended result that the administration would ensure, as it did, the provision of significantly inferior facilities for the Chiefs and their subjects, the so- called non-Europeans, and that resulted in unequal treatment to a substantial degree of Black and White.

The establishment of a democratic, nonracial and nonsexist state, undivided by racial prejudices, from the ashes of a racist and undemocratic order has always been the goal of the ANC. The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa declares that South Africa is one sovereign and democratic state founded, inter alia, on nonracialism and nonsexism, which requires one law for one country. Chapter 12 of the Constitution provides for the recognition of the institution, status and role of traditional leadership according to customary law, subject to the Constitution.

It stands to reason, therefore, that this Council and Parliament, as a whole, should continuously and relentlessly be seized with the noble task of ridding our country of all laws that were founded on the values of racial prejudice and oppression of one human by a fellow human. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Ms Y NAHARA (KwaZulu-Natal): Chairperson, the hon Minister of Justice Mrs Mabandla and members of this House, it has been a problem for me to come and stand here and talk about these laws. For those who did not go through the experience of these laws, it might be fine but for those of us who grew up seeing these laws working practically it is difficult.

I had an argument with my chairperson when he said I must come and represent the portfolio committee here. But one would like to say this is one more step. It is another mile in our freedom in this country, a result of many battles that were fought by our people. On behalf of our martyrs, today we can say we have done our job. You can live in a free country because we lost people under these laws. Most of the colleagues here have quoted some of the issues and I will not go into them because I have to leave just now but I would like to quote two issues that are a practical example of what these laws have done to our people. I will start with the first one and I will come the other one, the exemption of the black people. KwaZulu besithi amazemtiti. [In KwaZulu we called them ``amazemtiti’’, the exempted.

Being ``exempted’’ made some of our people see themselves as being higher than others. Our people used to enjoy life together but when this exemption came about, they would not associate themselves with the lower classes of people.

“Kwathi uma kufika indaba yokukhishwa kwabantu eMkhumbane . . .” [When people started being removed from Mkhumbane] . . . there was no exemption. All of them had to file on and were told to depart because that was now a white man’s area.

You can imagine the division that was created by these exemptions where people would say ``I am a better teacher than another person’’. I am a principal and I am a better person than a teacher. You were now in the same boat of this ordinary person, and you have got to leave. I do not want to say how much damage there was.

The second aspect was the proclamation of the so-called Republic in 1961. It has left scars that some people here cannot imagine.

With the forced removals of Sophiatown and Newclaire, people were being removed whether you liked it or not. The GG truck used to stand there and when it was there, you could not escape. What happened was that by trying to survive people went to extremes. “Omncube bashintsha baba oCampbell.” [Mncubes changed into Campbells.] [Interjections.] It is true. I can show you some of the people now. “Okhoza baba oKoos.” [Khozas became Kooses.] “OMasango baba oMsajee.” [Masangos became Msajees.] “ONdlovu baba oMohamed Oliphant.” [Ndlovus became Mohamed Oliphants.] I can count so many of them. The damage behind these laws! [Interjections.] “Niyangiqhatha-ke manje.” [You are now setting me up for a fight.] She is not Mohamed Oliphant; she is Olifant. I will protect my chance. But this was a family who became Mohamed Elephant to make it even more different.

Now, the damage behind the laws that we are repealing today is the conflict caused within families. How do you go back to Nquthu to say, I am part of this family, I am Mncube’’. The kids say: Are you insane, Mnkhube, what is that?’’ And these children’s surname is Mncube. How do you then bring that? We are repealing the laws. Very well. It is correct. It is nice. It is time. But what do we do to assist that family now? There is a conflict between the parents and the child. The parents say,Ayi bo, singabakwaMncube mntanami. Ekhaya kulaphaya eMaduladula eNquthu.” [No, my child, we are Mncubes. Our home is over there at Maduladula in Nquthu.] The child says: “I don’t understand what you are talking about. I have always been here in Coronation. What are you talking about? I know Coronation and River Lee. What are you talking about?” It is a serious matter that we are talking about. It is a serious conflict within families. You go and tell a child: ``Cha awuyena owakwaKoos, uwuKhoza. Ekhaya kini kule eSibasa, kusekhaya lapho.’’ [No, your surname is not Koos. It is Khoza. Your home is at Sibasa, that is where your home is.] How do we reconcile these things?

I just wanted to highlight these two issues. There are many other issues where the laws that we are repealing today have left scars and damage within the families of black people. But nevertheless, having said that, I would also like to indicate that as a portfolio committee, when this presentation was made to it, unfortunately we did not have time to really go through and discuss it broadly but I can assure this House that we unanimously supported very strongly the repeal of these laws.

In fact, with regard to the ones that are to remain, we were hoping that if we were to do it our own way . . . “besiyothi namuhlanje kuphelile” . . . [we would be saying today is the end of it], . . . nothing more, because these are laws that have really made fools of us as black people. “Sasingopopayi babelungu . . . ”[We were the white people’s puppets] . . . in the true sense.

Today we would like to see our people in their own right and their dignity respected again as human beings, as a proud nation of this country. Thank you, Chair. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Thank you, hon member. Unfortunately, the hon member forgot to explain her surname, Nahara, but nevertheless, I will call the hon Shiceka.

Mr S SHICEKA: “Lihlabe laphukela.” [Those words had a great impact.]

Chairperson, the Minister, today we are doing another assault on the apartheid legacy in this country by repealing the remnants of the obnoxious laws. The law was systematically designed to control every sphere of the lives of our people.

Other speakers, including the Minister, have dealt with other issues. My task is to touch on two areas. I will deal with these areas in terms of the ownership, occupation and usage of land by blacks and also of the indigenous courts.

We agree, all of us, that land is a primary resource for development. Development takes place on the land or underneath the land. That is why other parties say ``land first; all others shall follow’’.

Our people were dispossessed of their primary resources throughout the years of dispossession, which were last fought by Bhambatha kaMancinza at Nkandla in 1906.

The 1913 Black Land Act was a defining moment in terms of the ownership of land by our people in this country, further consolidated by the 1927 and 1936 Acts. They gave all the powers to the Governor-General to give and take the lands as he wished from blacks. Using the proclamations in exercising his power, he delegated his powers to the chief commissioner, who was used as a front man because he was a man. There wasn’t any woman who was given any power at that time.

Blacks were given poor, barren land in areas that were called tribal settlements. No black was allowed to own any land in urban areas. The least that could happen was that you would be given a 99-year leasehold but not the ownership of land. Now, how many of us can survive for 99 years? What history tells us is that the people do not survive that long, meaning that if the system wanted your piece of land, the chief commissioner with the powers vested upon him would take away your land using only a proclamation. No process had to be taken in that way. The people of this country through our forbears said:``The land shall be shared among those who work it’’.

The democratic government established a constitutional state that promotes and encourages the rule of law, ensuring that everyone is equal before the law. This government has developed a system that protects the rights of people including the property rights.

We know that the DA in particular, as a party, is a party that clings onto this issue because, by and large, they are refusing to share this important resource, this resource that was taken by undemocratic means.

This government has developed these systems that are transparent, representative, with fair procedures of decision-making that can be reviewed by our courts, particularly the highest court of the land, the Constitutional Court. If people feel treated unfairly by the decision of the state, they have areas where they are able to take up those issues. Never shall we go back to this system.

Regarding indigenous courts, Minister, your department has been requested to develop and add legislation that deals with this issue. A discussion should take place about the foundation of our law. As I speak, the law of this country, the law of the land, is based on Roman-Dutch Law. That is the foundation, the cornerstone of the law of this land. Now, the question that we must ask ourselves is: Is that in line with the African Renaissance? “Uma sithi mazibuye emasisweni, zibuyele emakhaya konina . . . ”[If we say let the rightful owners reclaim what is theirs] . . . is it in line with that?

A system of indigenous law and indigenous courts has to be developed. In Botswana, our neighbour, 80% of cases are handled by indigenous courts. The indigenous courts promote restorative justice rather than retributive justice.

Our correctional services are overcrowded; our courts are experiencing backlogs. Therefore, it means that we require alternative ways of dealing with people who are in conflict with the law so that this country is able to deal with its own disputes and can handle its issues. Therefore, we require creative solutions to issues that are affecting us.

We have also agreed that, regarding all other apartheid laws, by 31 January, the SA Law Review Commission must present on those laws so that we can know whether, after 12 years of democracy, we are still going to have laws that are in conflict with our Constitution or not. Therefore, we hope that the department, Minister, will be able to deliver on this task. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, hon members . . .

“ . . . siyavumelana ngokuthi asiyingcwabeni. Senikhulumile.” [ . . . we agree to bury it. You have spoken.] Let’s meet the deadline of 31 July 2006.

I don’t think that there is anyone here, any African person above the age of 50, who hasn’t experienced, closely or remotely, pain and suffering because of this bundle of legislation. Now I’m talking about the whole package. So we have to conform to the new values, to our constitutional dispensation.

Ubaba uMzizi usekhona? Lalela-ke mfowethu, engifuna ukukusho ukuthi niyazi ukuthi ingxoxo ngamasiko ethu noMthethosisekelo sayiqala kudala. Sayiqala kungakafiki ngisho u-1994 engakafiki kodwa into eyenzakalayo ukuthi izingxoxo lezi sizenza ngokwehlukana. Kuba khona inhlangano yabesifazane nabo baxoxe bodwa namakhosi axoxe odwa.

Kufuneka ukuthi uma sesigubha iminyaka eyishumi yoMthethosisekelo wethu sihlanganiseni le nto sibone ukuthi . . . (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Is Mr Mzizi still here? Listen, my brother; what I would like to say is that you know we started dialogues about our cultures and Constitution a long time ago. We started before 1994. What is happening is that these discussions are held separately. We have women’s organisations that are having discussions by themselves and chiefs are also having discussions by themselves.

When we celebrate 10 years of our Constitution, we have to put this thing together and see . . . ]

As we prepare for July, or whatever date is set, or 31 July . . .

“ . . . sisebenzise lesi sikhathi ukuthi sibe nengxoxo . . . ”[ . . . we must use this time to have discussions . . . ] . . . which are dynamic amongst our people. “Inkathazo ukuthi asixoxi thina.” [The problem is that we are not having dialogues.]

We don’t dialogue qualitatively, and I’m saying this is an opportunity for that to happen.

Uqinisile ubaba uMzizi uma ethi amasiko ethu ajulile kodwa uma kukhulunywa ngokungena, sisho ukungena abantu ngoba bevumelana noma sisho ukungena uma kuyisiko ngendlela yokuthi uyacindizelwa ukuthi uvume ukuthi kufanele uthathwe umuntu othile. Baba uMzizi, ngixoxa nawe. [Uhleko.] Ngithe uma ngikhuluma ekuqaleni ngiye ngathi sigubha iminyaka eyishumi yokuba khona koMthethosisekelo ngonyaka ozayo ngakho asisebenzise leso sikhathi ukuthi sixoxisane. Ngithe saqala kudala ukuxoxa namasiko ethu kanye noMthethosisekelo.

Enye into futhi ebengiyikhuza ukuthi sikhuluma ngokwehlukana. Amakhosi akhuluma wodwa laphaya namakhosikazi ezinhlanganweni zawo akhulume wodwa laphaya. Ngithi nasi isikhathi masixoxisaneni ngalezi zinto futhi sibonisane. Makube yisikhathi sokuthi sifunde kabusha sibheke ukuthi yini efanele iNingizimu Afrika ngoba abantu bethu kufanele sibavumele ukuthi babe nesandla ezinguqukweni ezintsha. Uvumelana nami? Ngishilo-ke ngathi vele sonke siyavumelana ukuthi masiwungcwabe lo Mthetho we-Black Administration Act.

Okunye futhi ebengifuna ukukusho ukuthi ngimzwile uqabane uShiceka. Engizokusho nje ukuthi . . . (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Mr Mzizi is correct when he says that our culture is very rich. When we talk about inheriting your brother’s wife, we are talking about inheriting by agreement or inheriting by culture, forcing that person to be taken by somebody. Mr Mzizi, I am talking to you. [Interjections.] When I was talking before, I said that next year we are celebrating 10 years of our Constitution. Therefore, let us use the time to dialogue. I said we started long time ago to discuss our cultures and the Constitution.

The other thing that I want to condemn is that we are holding our discussions separately. Chiefs are holding their discussions and women are holding discussions in their organisations. Now is the time for us to talk about these things. Now is the time to look again at what is necessary for South Africa, because people must contribute to change from now on. Do you agree with me? I have already said that we have all agreed to bury the Black Administrative Act.

Another thing that I want to say is that, I understood comrade Shiceka. What I would say is that . . . ]

We mustn’t romanticise new measures as opposed to what is current. Justice is very complex. It’s true that we need restorative justice and that we need to apply multipronged strategies and therefore programmes. I have had this debate and I just want to caution against it, namely that we have to get rid of Roman-Dutch law and go back to traditional law.

Ngazile ukuthi ubaba uMzizi uzoyithanda le. Niyabona-ke? Baba uMzizi . . [I knew that Mr Mzizi was going to like this one. Do you see? Mr Mzizi . . . ]

What I want to say is that they are not mutually exclusive, and that in fact we cannot overlook the jurisprudence that we have accumulated. The Roman-Dutch law system that you have talked about is in our system and in our way of life; it anchors our economy.

It will evolve new norms and standards, as informed by the new constitutional dispensation. Dynamic interaction, both socially and economically, will affect and influence changes in our society. Changes don’t happen overnight. But to help you, we are having a criminal review process, as the whole cluster, and we will embark on it effectively next year.

Finally, I would like to say Kgoshi Mokoena we “ . . . ngwana gaetsho . . . ” [Kgoshi Mokoena, my brother . . . ]

. . . I think that you must secretly write me a recommendation when you want me to give officials some kind of benefit; otherwise they will give me trouble. I have only promised them a Christmas party and now I think he will be expecting more, but unfortunately he’ll have to look to the DG . . . [Laughter.]

In Justice, I’ve inherited working with very good people. We have been joined by very efficient, new persons on the team, such as the DG, and I’m confident that, working together with the Deputy Minister, we will deliver justice in this period. I thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: That concludes the debate.

I shall now put the question. The question is that the Bill be agreed to. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. Are all delegation heads present? They are.

In accordance with Rule 71 of the National Council of Provinces, I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make declarations of vote if they so wish. Is there any province that wants to make a declaration of vote? There is none. We shall now proceed to voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour or against or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Siyavuma. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN: Abstain.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Gauteng?

Mr E M SOGONI: Gauteng e ae sapota. [Gauteng supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI: iKwaZulu-Natali ithi elethu. [KwaZulu-Natal supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Limpopo province?

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Re a thekga, Motlhomphegi. [We support, Chairperson.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga?

Ms F NYANDA: Mpumalanga re ya ethega. [Mpumalanga supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Northern Cape?

Mr M C GOEIEMAN: Kapa Bokone re a dumelana. [Northern Cape supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

Rev P MOATSHE: Ke a rona. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape?

Mr P C McKENZIE: Wes-Kaap steun. [Western Cape supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Eight provinces, with the exception of one, which has abstained, voted . . . What is your issue, hon Kolweni? Can I hear your issue? [Interjections.]

Mr Z S KOLWENI: The Free State abstains.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, you are out of order. [Laughter.] You must first wait for me to make a ruling. You have a right to dispute my ruling, but you cannot interrupt at the beginning of my ruling. I am therefore making a ruling that out of nine provinces, only one province abstained, which is the Free State province. All eight other provinces voted in favour, and therefore the Bill is agreed to. [Applause.]

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                       PATENTS AMENDMENT BILL

                       (Consideration of Bill)

Ms N D NTWANAMBI: Mhlalingaphambili, ndifuna ukutsho kusekutsha kunje ukuba lungisani iindlebe zenu ngoba ndiza kuthetha IsiXhosa. [Chairperson, I want to state at the outset that you should open your ears, because I am going to speak isiXhosa.]

Chairperson and hon members, it is a great honour for me to table this statement on behalf of our committee. This will further make sure that . . .

. . . abo bazi iingcambu nemithi ethile nabo bayafunjathiswa zezo nkampani zenza ngabo imali. Ngamazwi apheleleyo, lo Mthetho-sihlomelo wenza ukuba iingqondo zemveli zabantu nolwazi lwabo lukhuseleke. Ukuba ubungcaphephe babantu bakuthi abukhuselwa, baya kuba ngamaxhoba oohlohlesakhe abazimisele nje ukwenza imali nenzuzo bengacingi kubabuyekeza nangeqhekezana abo bangabona banini-ngcambu okanye mithi. Amazwe anjengeBrazil kunye nePeru anayo indlela ethile athi . . . (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.) [ . . . those who know indigenous medicines receive financial compensation and those who are from the companies that are making money out of them. In other words, this amendment bill seeks to protect the organic and traditional knowledge of the people. If the expertise of our people is not protected, they will be left vulnerable to these fat cats, whose intentions are just to make money and profits, without thinking of compensating the real owners. Countries like Brazil and Peru have their own way of . . . ]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Just a minute. Can we be assisted with interpretation?

Ms N D NTWANAMBI: Mhlalingaphambili, ndithi: Esi sihlomelo sinamabakala amane. Okokuqala, lowo wanikwa ulwazi, makaxele imvelaphi yechiza okanye ingcambu. Okwesibini, makafumane imvume enolwazi kwabo bahlali bamncede ngechiza elo. Okwesithathu, mayingabi yimveliso yakhe yedwa kodwa mabakhankanye abona banikazi nanjengoko yena eza kufakelela nezikhumshayo iindawo zeelaboratory nezinye ininto eziza kuba nobunzululwazi kweli chiza. Okokugqibela, abanikazi-ngcambu mabaxhamle ngokwasezimalini njengoko ingabo abona bantu bavelise le ngcambu.

Ngale ndlela, urhulumente weli uya kukwazi ukukhusela abantu bethu abanengqondo yemveli nokunyanzelisa ezi nkampani zinkulu ukuba zixhamlise abantu bakuthi. Umzekelo ke Mhlalingaphambili ngulo uthi apha kuthi esiXhoseni kukho ingcambu ekuthiwa sisicakathi. Andizi kukwazi ukuyikhumsha ke. Le ngcambu iphekelwa iintsana. Yenza le nto kanye yenziwa yigripe water elusaneni. Sithetha loo nto ke kuba igripe water asingomanzi nje anentwana ethile eyongezelelweyo phaya esuka engcanjini ethile.

Siphila kwilizwe elityebileyo zezi ngcambu, amaxolo omthi kunye namagqabi. Ngokwenza olu xhobiso lubesemthethweni silungiselela nokugxotha ikati elele eziko sikwaphelisa noxhatshazo lolwazi lwabantu. Ngako oko Mhlalingaphambili, ndiphakamisa ukuba iNdlu yamkele, kwaye ixhase esi sihlomelo. Enkosi. [Applause.] (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[Ms N D NTWANAMBI: Chairperson, I am saying that this amendment has four arms. Firstly, the one who was given the knowledge should divulge the original of the herb or root. Secondly, he or she should get a permit, with the knowledge of those communities who are providing him with the herb. Thirdly, it should not be his product alone, but the actual owners should be mentioned as he is going to add Western ingredients and other synthetic ingredients to this herb in the laboratory. Lastly, the real owners of the herb should benefit financially because they are the actual producers of the herb.

In this way our Government will be able to protect the indigenous knowledge of our people. And it also compels these big companies to reward our people, and the example I want to give the Chairperson is this. In isiXhosa we have a kind of herb called “isicakathi”. I am unable to say this in English. It is boiled for babies. It does the very same job as gripe water for a baby. That is what we mean, because gripe water is not just water with a little something from a certain herb.

We live in a country that is rich in roots, bark of trees and leaves. By making this empowerment legal we are preparing to alleviate poverty; we are also bringing to an end the abuse of our people’s indigenous knowledge. Therefore, Chairperson, I move that the House adopt, and support, this amendment. Thank you. [Applause.]]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: That concludes the debate.

Debate concluded.

I shall now put the question. The question is that the Bill be agreed to. In accordance with Rule 63, I shall first allow political parties to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. Is there any political party that wants to make a declaration of vote? The DA does not intending to, neither does any other political party.

We shall now proceed to voting on the question. Those in favour say ``Aye’’.

HON MEMBERS: Aye!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Those against say ``No’’

HON MEMBERS: No!

The ``Ayes’’ have it. The majority of members have voted in favour. I therefore declare the Bill agreed to in terms of section 75 of the Constitution. [Applause.]

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

              INTERNATIONAL PLANT PROTECTION CONVENTION

                      (Consideration of Report)

Rev P MOATSHE: Chairperson and hon members, my topic is: Statement on the International Plant Protection Convention. It is within our mandate and resolve that South Africa, as a sovereign state, should ascribe to international principles that result in benefiting the citizens of our country and further result in enhancing their lives for the better, and supporting the principle of poverty alleviation and job creation. That is why we are now also a signatory to the International Plant Protection Convention.

This exercise, important as it is for our country, is not legally binding but it obliges signatory states to adopt laws consistent with their international obligations, assumed through international treaties and agreements. The principle enunciated within the respective environmental conventions provide a framework to guide management policies and serve as a legal foundation for institutional development, enabling groups to challenge domestic laws that would cause the state to violate its international treaty obligations.

The third exercise may also lead to ensuring that, at all times, we have the necessary and appropriate framework for the management of the environment and sustainable development, improved legal and administrative co-ordination of the diverse sectors, and initiatives on the management of the environment forming the principle instrument of government in the implementation of all policies relating to the environment.

We cannot run away from the fact that we cannot overlook the possibility of the emergence of new diseases in the coming years. There have already been several important reminders of the need for vigilance. In recent years we have had to cope with a number of very worrying new challenges - for instance, mad cow disease and the recent ban on the export of ostrich products, which has recently been lifted. Therefore it needed to be said that the clear priority is facing up to the challenge of previously unknown diseases in the protection of human health.

There is, however, a particular complication. The full implications for human health of new diseases, by their nature, are highly uncertain. In such cases, there is natural reaction of extreme caution until the full extent of the real risk arising from these challenges can be established.

Being a signatory to the World Trade Organisation agreements on the application of sanitary and phytosanitary measures, the Protection Convention requires that, first, we should set up basic rules for global agricultural trade. Second, we should recognise the three standard setting bodies for plant, health, animal and food safety.

This again requires that we should adhere to the rights as enshrined by the WTO - that of protecting humans, plants and animals within their territories from harmful foreign pests. It should also be remembered that the WTO expresses some obligations on its members, amongst other things, of basing all regulatory majors on scientific data, which should be technically justified and appropriate.

Chairperson, lastly, in 1948, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights stated in Article 25 (1) that everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for health and wellbeing of himself and of his family, including food. I take this opportunity to place before this House this convention for adoption. Thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I shall now put the question, the question being that the report be adopted. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all the delegation heads are present.

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make declarations of vote if they so wish. Is there any province that wants to make a declaration of vote?

We shall now proceed to voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Eastern Cape supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Gauteng?

Mr E M SOGONI: Elethu. [Supports.] The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI: Elethu. [Supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Limpopo?

Ms H F MATLANYANE: Ke a rona. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga?

Ms F NYANDA: In favour.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Northern Cape?

Mr M C GOEIEMAN: Steun. [Supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

Rev P MOATSHE: Ke a rona. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape?

Mr F ADAMS: Wes-Kaap steun. [Western Cape supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: All nine provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the report adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

MEMBERSHIP TO INTERNATIONAL CENTRE FOR SCIENTIFIC AND TECHNICAL INFORMATION (ICSTI)

                      (Consideration of Report)

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: According to my speakers’ list, I need to call upon the hon N D Hendrickse.

Mr N D HENDRICKSE: I think I have more than two minutes this time. I want to speak about our membership of the International Centre for Science and Technical Information.

The participation of South Africa in various science and technology initiatives needs to be encouraged, given the dearth of skills in this area and also for improving our research and development capacity.

The membership of such forums adds value to the country’s own science and technology programme; training and assimilation must be supported. Given that South Africa is in the forefront of the technological innovation on the continent, and given our leadership role in the New Partnership for Africa’s Development, having such linkages add value to our broader technology and science family, from which various support programmes could emerge.

While the membership fee is marginal, the benefits far outweigh the cost in terms of what South Africa could potentially gain from its terms of access to networks, database and refinement of our country’s collection, analysis and dissemination.

The opportunities that this membership will bring to this country will give South Africans an opportunity to gain access to information and unleash their potential because, after all, South Africa is alive with possibilities.

Let the doors of learning be open. The United Independent Front therefore supports South African’s membership of the International Centre for Science and Technical Information.

Debate concluded.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I shall now put the question, the question being that the report be adopted. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all the delegation heads are present. In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make declarations of vote if they so wish. Is there any province that wants to make a declaration of vote?

We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Eastern Cape supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Gauteng?

Mr E M SOGONI: Elethu. [Supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI: Elethu. [Supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Limpopo?

Ms H F MATLANYANE: Limpopo ea e seketela. [Limpopo supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga? Ms F NYANDA: Iyavuma. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Northern Cape?

Mr M C GOEIEMAN: Re a dumalatsana. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: Ke a rona. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape?

Mr F ADAMS: Wes-Kaap steun. [Western Cape supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: All nine provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the report adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Report adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

ADDITIONAL PROTOCOL TO TRADE DEVELOPMENT AND CO-OPERATION AGREEMENT (TDCA) BETWEEN THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA AND THE EUROPEAN COMMUNITY (EC) AND ITS MEMBER STATES.

                      (Consideration of Report)

Mr D D GAMEDE: This will be the statement of the Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs. The EU, which is the European Union, is South Africa’s largest trading partner, and our main source of foreign direct investment.

The South Africa EU Trade Development and Co-operation Agreement, which is known as the TDCA, which governs South Africa’s relations with the EU, was initially signed on 11 October 1999.

The TDCA also provides a legal basis for continued EU support on development co-operation in South Africa, through the European Programme for Reconstruction and Development. It also provides for political co- operation.

On 1 May 2004, the EU expanded from 15 to 25 member states, with a membership of 10 new countries in central and Eastern Europe. The important point is that trade concessions in the TDCA will automatically be extended to these new EU members, which are Poland, Czech Republic, Slovenia, Hungary, etc.

The additional protocol was signed on 25 June 2005 in terms of section 231 of the Constitution of the Republic. It has to be ratified before it can be binding on the part of South Africa.

In conclusion, the extension of the TDCA to the 10 new member states will ensure that South Africa exports to them and will benefit from the same conditions currently enjoyed in the original 15 member states of the EU.

It also implies that imports from these countries in South Africa will benefit from the preferential conditions contained in the TDCA. It means that our trade relations with a very large part of Europe will be harmonised and disciplined by the TDCA. I thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I shall now put the question, the question being that the report be adopted. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all the delegation heads are present. Are all delegation heads present?

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make declarations of vote if they so wish. Is there any province that wants to make a declaration of vote?

We shall now proceed to voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Gauteng?

Mr E M SOGONI: Siyavuma. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI: KwaZulu-Natal supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Limpopo?

Ms H F MATLANYANE: Limpopo re atela. [Limpopo supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga?

Ms F NYANDA: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Northern Cape?

Mr M C GOEIEMAN: Re a dumelana. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: In favour.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape?

Mr F ADAMS: Wes-Kaap steun. [Western Cape supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: All nine provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the report adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

PROVISIONAL SUSPENSION FROM OFFICE OF MAGISTRATE M S E KHUMALO, HEAD OFFICE AT THE AMSTERDAM MAGISTRATE COURT

                      (Consideration of Report)

Rre A L MOSEKI: Modulasetulo, maloko a a tlotlegang a Palamente, komitikgetho e enkopile go tlisa dipegelo tse pedi, ke di tlise ka gangwe, ke se dikgaoganye. Ke tlile go dira jalo ka bokhutshwane tota.

Lefapha la Bosiamisi le Tlhabololo ya Molaotheo le tlile kwa komiting la re bolelela ka seemo sa ga Magiseterata Mathe le Magiseterata Khumalo, la re bontsha gore go na le bothata ka bomagiseterata ba babedi ba. Go na le dipuo tse di reng Magiseterata Mathe o jele madi a a kana ka R16 000, a a neng a tshwanetse go tlhokomela dikhutsana. Se, se akaretsa le rre Khumalo. Madi a gagwe ke R240 000. Se ke bothata jwa bomagiseterata ba go buiwang ka bona fa.

Komiti fa e reeditse lefapha le bua le re, fa motho e le modiredisetšhaba, setšhaba se tshwanetse go mo ikanya. O tshwanetse go nna le tlotlo mo setšhabeng. Jaanong fa go na le melato e e ntseng jana, e e lebaganeng le ena, mme a tshwere kantoro ya setšhaba, tlotlo ya kantoro eo, e a latlhega. Modiredisetšhaba yo, fa a tshwanelwa ke gore tsatsi lengwe le lengwe a nne mo kgotlatshekelo, a sekise disenyi mme le ena go na le bothata jo bontseng jalo kgatlhanong le ena, selo seo se tlisa thulano ya dikgatlhego, se diga seriti sa kgotlatshekelo. Ka go rialo, lefapha la re, a e re go sa ntse go batlisisiwa, banna ba ba tsamaya kwa kgotlatshekelo, ba name ba beetswe kwa thoko go fitlhela melato ya bona e fela gore ba tle ba kgone go lebana le melato ya bona sentle.

Tona o dumalana le pegelo e. Komiti ya Bosiamisi le Tlhabololo ya Molaotheo e dumalana le tsitsinyo eo. Se ke seemo sa komiti mo dipegelong tse pedi tse. Ke a leboga [Legofi.] (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)

[Mr A L MOSEKI: Chairperson, hon members, the Select Committee has requested me to submit two reports at the same time, and not separately. I intend to do so very quickly.

The Department of Justice and Constitutional Development met the committee and updated it about the state of affairs of magistrates Mathe and Khumalo, which indicated that there was a problem with the two magistrates. There is hearsay that magistrate Mathe took money to the value of R16 000 meant for orphans. Mr Khumalo is also involved. The money he took amounts to R240

1. This is the problem facing the two magistrates.

The department explained to the committee that any person who is a public servant must be loyal to the public. It is important to respect them. When the magistrate faces a case like this one, he is also facing the integrity of the office. If this public servant has to attend trial at the court every day, there will be a conflict of interest and this will also lower the integrity of the office. The department has decided to suspend them while investigations are continuing so that they could face the charges until the case is over.

The Minister concurs with this report. The Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development agrees to the proposal. This is the position of the committee on the two reports. Thank you. [Laughter.]] Debate concluded.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon members, I just want to bring to your attention that the speaker who has just spoken presented a report on two Orders – the Orders relating to Magistrate Mathe and Magistrate Khumalo. However, I am advised that in terms of the Rules, we have to vote separately on those matters without any further debate on the next Order, which concerns Magistrate Mathe.

I will proceed to voting, and put the question that the report be adopted.

As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all the delegation heads are present. Are all delegation heads present?

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make declarations of vote if they so wish.

Is there any province that wants to make a declaration of vote? None.

We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Gauteng?

Mr E M SOGONI: Siyavuma. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI: Siyavuma. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Limpopo?

Ms H F MATLANYANE: Limpopo steun. [Limpopo supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga?

Ms F NYANDA: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Northern Cape?

Mr M C GOEIEMAN: Re a dumalatsana. [We support.] The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: Ke a rona. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape?

Mr F ADAMS: Wes-Kaap steun. [Western Cape supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: All nine provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the report adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

For procedural purposes, I shall call upon the Secretary to read the Seventh Order of the Day, which relates to Magistrate Mathe.

PROVISIONAL SUSPENSION FROM OFFICE OF MAGISTRATE M F MATHE, ADDITIONAL MAGISTRATE AT PINETOWN

                      (Consideration of Report)

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: As the report has already been covered by the previous speaker, we shall proceed to the voting on the matter. I shall put the question. The question is that the report be adopted.

As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all the delegation heads are present. Are all delegation heads present? Yes.

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make declarations of vote if they so wish. Is there any province that wants to make a declaration of vote? No.

We shall now proceed to voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Gauteng?

Mr E M SOGONI: Siyavuma. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI: Elethu. [We support.] The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Limpopo?

Ms H F MATLANYANE: Limpopo steun. [Limpopo supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga?

Ms F NYANDA: Mpumalanga supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Northern Cape?

Mr M C GOEIEMAN: Re a dumalatsana. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape?

Mr F ADAMS: Wes-Kaap steun. [Western Cape supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: All nine provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the report adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution. CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SOUTH AFRICAN DELEGATION TO THIRD ORDINARY SESSION OF THE PAN-AFRICAN PARLIAMENT

Mr M J MAHLANGU: Thank you, Chairperson, for giving me the opportunity to speak on the report . . . [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Members are requesting the hon Chairperson to address them from the podium, and I’ll abide by that democratic order. [Applause.]

Mr M J MAHLANGU: Thank you, Chairperson, for giving me the opportunity to speak on the report. I can see the members are tired, so I’ll try to be very brief. You’ve worked very hard today!

The Pan-African Parliament was established to provide a common platform for African people and their grass-root organisations to be more involved in the discussions and decision-making on the problems and challenges facing the continent. One of the objectives of this continental body is to facilitate the effective implementation of policies and objectives of the African Union. The PAP was inaugurated in March last year in Addis Ababa in Ethiopia, and since then it has held three sessions.

The Third Ordinary Session of the PAP, the report of which is before this House today, took place from 29 March to 11 April 2005. A number of issues were dealt with at this session and certain recommendations and resolutions were taken. I hope the members have had an opportunity to go through the report so that they keep themselves abreast of the developments and discussions in the PAP. If, for any reason, there are members who have not gone through this report, may I please urge them to do so. The report is in the ATC of 19 August 2005.

The report gives a picture of how far the Pan-African Parliament has progressed since its inception. I will highlight some of the key issues that emanate from the Third Ordinary Session of the PAP, but first I would like the House to note some of the major achievements of the PAP’s second session held earlier last year.

The first was the adoption of the Rules of procedure to regularise the internal functioning of the PAP. The Rules of procedure were modelled along the lines of the institution’s founding instrument that is a protocol to the treaty establishing the African community relating to the Pan-African Parliament.

The second achievement was the resolution passed by the PAP at the end of the second session last year to send a mission to Darfur in southern Sudan to establish facts about the conflict in the region and also make recommendations. The mission’s recommendations are contained in the report we are considering this afternoon. We regard this as a major step which showed our readiness as a continent to attend to our problems without relying on external forces. The Third Ordinary Session of the PAP presented African parliamentarians with the opportunity to engage in discussions around important issues pertinent to the development of the continent. These include debates on the reform of the United Nations, transport, industry, communications, energy, science and technology, peace and security in Africa, and HIV and Aids, in respect of which the PAP decided to take a leading role in the combating and focusing on behavioural changes and development of a continental plan to fight this disease.

Importantly, the PAP took a brave step towards addressing the issues of land redistribution in Africa, which traces its background to the wars of dispossession of Africans by the colonialists. The sessions called for the establishment of the African land title system that would go a long way towards addressing problems relating to land dispossession on the continent.

It would also pave the way for tackling one of the critical issues that prevent the continent from effectively becoming part of the global community and crossing the digital divide, namely the improvement of the telecommunications and information technology as well as the transport system. To achieve this it recommended the establishment of a new database in the telecommunications and transport fields within the Nepad framework.

Further, in view of challenges with regard to the availability of the adequate financial resources to run the PAP, the third session adopted the motion presented by the committee on monetary and financial affairs to grant permission for the establishment of a trust fund as an additional means to mobilise resources to support the work of the PAP. The fund would assist in building capacity for the PAP as well as enabling it to be financially independent, therefore reducing its dependence on the African Union and enhancing its oversight role.

As hon members would know, the work of the PAP is carried out by committees. In preparation of the Fourth Ordinary Session Of the PAP to be held on 21 November until 2 December 2005, the committees agreed on the following priorities: The Committee on Rules, Privileges and Discipline agreed on a code of conduct for the members of the Pan-African Parliament and the draft proposed guidelines on the oversight and accountability for the PAP. I should report that the code of conduct will be tabled during this coming session for debate and adoption by the PAP, whilst we will be having a workshop on 19 and 20 November to tease out issues in respect of the oversight function on the Pan-African Parliament.

The Committee on Co-Operation, International Relations and Conflict Resolution identified a number of events and resources for mobilisation of activities in order to co-ordinate co-operation and peace-keeping efforts within and outside the continent. The Committee on Trade, Customs and Immigration Matters prioritised the fact-finding mission to the commissioners of trade and industry and of social affairs of the African Union commission to get status reports on the activities, with particular reference to trade regulation, tariff laws, immigration laws and regulation laws.

The Committee on Transport, Industry, Communications, Energy, Science and Technology prioritised making inventories of all conventions, agreements, protocols and treaties governing the various domains, and a study of the New Economic Partnership for African Development programmes and projects relevant to the committee activities.

The Committee on Justice and Human Rights prioritised capacity-building for all members of the committee on their roles and functions in relation to the overall mandate of committees. In particular, the committee will be studying and getting first-hand information on human-rights matters on the continent.

Among resolutions taken by African parliamentarians at the latest session was the reiteration of the recommendation on the importance of the African Peer Review Mechanism by the state governments as a demonstration of commitment to development and the principle of democracy, good governance, the rule of law and respect for human rights.

This is an important message from the PAP, more especially in view of the fact that our national parliaments have a critical role to play in the peer review mechanism process. Our Parliament has embarked on a countrywide self- assessment and peer review process within the context of the African Peer Review Mechanism in order to encourage, within the broader context, the participation of the people of South Africa in this process. This shows our commitment to one of the ideals of our democratic government, that the people shall govern. We would like this process of our country’s self- assessment to benefit our country and the rest of the continent.

Many of the countries on the continent admire our young democracy and, as host country for the PAP, we believe that the Parliament should always set a good example as an institution that promotes and advances democratic principles and practices. The work that we do should assist the PAP in its endeavours to become a body that is truly representative of the people of Africa in social, economic and political issues around the continent.

Let me conclude by highlighting some of the challenges that the NCOP will have to deal with, that is, how do committees of the Council engage with the report on a particular resolution and recommendation. I would like to propose that the committees of the Council should consider resolutions and recommendations of the PAP and propose subjects for discussion in the House on some of these issues, because this would give delegates to the Pan- African Parliament a renewed mandate when engaging with their counterparts. Ek dank julle almal! [Applous.] [I thank you all! [Applause.]]

Debate concluded.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Thank you very much. That concludes the debate. I shall now put the question. The question is that the report be adopted. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present. Are all delegation heads present? Yes [Interjections.]

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make declarations of vote if they so wish. In the absence of any declarations of vote, we shall now proceed to voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour or against, or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN: In favour.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Gauteng? Mr E M SOGONI: Siyavuma. [We agree.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI: Elethu. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Limpopo?

Ms H F MATLANYANE: Rea e amogela. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga?

Ms F NYANDA: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Northern Cape?

Mr M C GOEIEMAN: Rea dumellana. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: Ke ya rona. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape?

Mr F ADAMS: Wes-Kaap steun. [Western Cape supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: All nine provinces have voted in favour. I therefore declare the report adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

CONSIDERATION OF FIRST REPORT OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES’ RULES COMMITTEE

Order disposed of without debate.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: As there is no speakers’ list, I shall now put the question. The question is that the report be adopted. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. Are all delegation heads present? Yes.

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make declarations of vote if they so wish. None.

In the absence of any declarations of vote, we shall now proceed to voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour or against, or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: In favour.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN: In favour.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Gauteng?

Mr E M SOGONI: Siyavuma. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI: In favour.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Limpopo?

Ms H F MATLANYANE: Limpopo steun. [Limpopo supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga?

Ms F NYANDA: Mpumalanga supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Northern Cape? Mr M C GOEIEMAN: Rea dumellana. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: Ke ya rona. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape?

Mr F ADAMS: Wes-Kaap steun. [Western Cape supports.]

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: All nine provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the report adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Before I adjourn the House, hon members, this is a report that is critical to the life and functioning of this institution, which deals with the Rules of the National Council of Provinces, and the report was published in the ATC of Wednesday, 9 November 2005.

In terms of the Rules of the National Council of Provinces, there are two options for dealing with any report before the House: either by way of a statement or, assuming that the report has been circulated in the ATC, it can actually be decided upon in this House without any further debate and discussion. So, that was the procedure that was followed.

I am raising this here because I am quite aware that most of the members were puzzled about what this report was about . . [Laughter]. . . but the point is, most of the provincial whips are members of the Rules Committee and they represent the provinces, and in their own right, they are the heads of delegations from their respective provinces, so it’s a two-way process: either confer with the head of the delegation from your province to learn all the details pertaining to the report or refer to the ATC in question.

With those few remarks, that concludes the business of the day, and the House is adjourned.

The Council adjourned at 17:35. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS



                     WEDNESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2005

TABLINGS

National Council of Provinces

1. The Chairperson

 The Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, as the
 Chairperson of the Rules Committee of the Council, presents the First
 Report of the Rules Committee of the National Council of Provinces,
 dated 27 October 2005, as follows:


 To amend rule 9 by deletion of the words in bold brackets and insertion
 of the words underlined

 Election of other presiding officers


 9.(1) The Council may elect from among its members a [Chairperson and
 Deputy Chairperson of Committees] House Chairperson Committees and
 House Chairperson Oversight and Institutional Support to assist the
 Chairperson and Deputy Chairpersons of the Council as additional
 presiding officers.


 To amend rule 11 by deletion of the words in bold brackets and
 insertion of the words underlined


 Relieve of Chairperson


 11. A Deputy Chairperson or the [Chairperson of Committees or Deputy
 Chairperson of Committees] House Chairperson Committees or House
 Chairperson Oversight and Institutional Support or another member must
 take the Chair during a sitting of the Council whenever requested to do
 so by the Chairperson of the Council.

To insert rule 14A after rule 14 with the following underlined words.

Functions of the House Chairperson Committees

    14A (1) The House Chairperson Committees shall perform the
    following functions -


    (a)      Ensuring  the  compilation  of  the  programme  by  Select
        Committees that are in compliance with their strategic plans.

    b) Providing reports to the Programme Committee  meeting  regarding
       legislation and committee activities.

    (c)      Monitor the support provided by the Committee  Section  to
        committees.

    (d)      Facilitate the drafting of committee budgets.

    e) Tracking the processing of legislation by committees.

    f) Co-ordinate the Strategic and Business Plans  and  Programme  of
       Select Committees’ activities.

    g) Convene and chair the Forum of Chairpersons of Committees and
       Caucus Chairpersons quarterly to exchange information,
       perspectives and discuss, where necessary, issues relating to
       support to members or members interests.


    h) Convenes and chairs the Chairpersons of Committees meetings to
       deal with the business of Select Committees, in particular the
       processing of legislation.

To amend rule 14 by insertion of rule 14B and of the underlined words.

Functions of the House Chairperson Oversight and Institutional Support

  14B (1) The House Chairperson Oversight and Institutional Support
         shall perform the following functions-

  (a) Co-ordinate the oversight activities of Select Committees.

 b) Ensure the  compilation  of  the  committee  reports  on  oversight
    activities.

  (c)   Ensure that all committees are briefed on the  Budget  Votes  by
     government departments and prove progress reports on such briefings
     to the Programme Committee.

  (d)    Monitor  compliance  by   the   Executive   with   respect   to
     recommendations set out in reports of Select Committees through the
     Office of the Chairperson of the NCOP.

  (e) The facilitation  of  implementation  of  recommendations  of  the
     oversight subcommittee by championing implementation  by  the  Task
     Team on Oversight by overseeing work by officials.


 f) To address members queries regarding Members Interests by liasing
    and ensuring that policies in this regard are implemented
    including:


     (i)      Working with the Deputy Chairperson to review the document
         on Benefits for Members:
     (ii)     continuously monitor and report on the implementation of
         the policy as adopted after reviewing of the document on
         Benefits for Members;
     (iii)    monitor and report on needs of members with disabilities;
         and
     (iv)     monitor and report on implementation of policy in relation
         to former MPs facilities including interacting with those who
         make contact for one reason or another.


  (g) To acquaint himself/herself with policies regarding labour
     relations and be the receptacle of such matters in order to advise
     the Office of the Chairperson and enable it to intervene
     appropriately where necessary.

  (h) To facilitate oversight of, monitor and report on the workings of
     the Public Education Unit. This is informed by the political
     imperative that Parliament should be accessible to the people as
     well as the constitutional imperative of facilitation of public
     participation.

  (i)   To be fully IT compliant by facilitating installation of systems
     to ensure that the institution is technologically ready to deal
     with its functions and to provide report on this matter to the
     Office of the Chairperson.

  (j)   Attend and provide inputs to the Forum of Chairpersons of
     Committees and Caucus Chairpersons quarterly to exchange
     information, perspectives and discuss, where necessary, issues
     relating to support to members or members’ interests.

 k) Ensure finalisation of existing draft policies on Leave for
    Members, Artworks Management, Exhibitions, Library.  Once policy is
    adopted, monitor and report on implementation progress or
    otherwise.


 l) Monitor and report on Household Services work especially in
    relation to Parliament as well as maintenance and security of its
    assets.

  To amend rule 94 by deletion of the words in bold brackets and
  insertion of the words underlined


  Voting on International Agreements

  To insert rule 73A after rule 73 with the following underlined words.

  73A.  (1) No mandate is required when the House votes on International
     Agreements provided in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution.
     However, the head of the provincial delegation must cast a vote on
     behalf of the province.

 2)  In the absence of the head of the provincial delegation a member
    may vote on behalf of the province.


 3)  A decision is agreed to when at least five or more provinces vote
    in favour.


Meetings of Council committees and subcommittees


  94.   (1) Council committees and subcommittees meet whenever
  necessary and as determined in accordance with these Rules and the
  decisions and directives of the [Chairperson of Committees] House
  Chairperson Committees -


  To amend rule 116(1)(d) by deletion of the words in bold brackets and
  insertion of the words underlined

  Composition
  116. (1) The Rules Committee consists of –
  (a)   the Chairperson of the Council;
             b) the permanent Deputy Chairperson;
             c) the Chief Whip of the Council;
    d) the [Chairperson and Deputy Chairperson of Committees]House
       Chairperson Committees and House Chairperson Oversight and
       Institutional Support;
             e) the Programming Whip; and
  (f)   two representatives from each provincial delegation, one of whom
       must be a permanent delegate.


  To amend rule 142(1)(d) by deletion of the words in bold brackets and
  insertion of the words underlined


  Composition
  142. (1) The Programme Committee consists of –
  (a)   the Chairperson of the Council;
  (b)   the Deputy Chairpersons of the Council;
  (c)   two representatives from each provincial delegation  one of
       whom must be delegation whip and the other a special member in
       the delegation;
  (d)   the [Chairperson of Committees in the Council] House
       Chairperson Committees;
  (e)   the House Chairperson Oversight and Institutional Support;
  (f)   the Chief Whip of the Council;  and
  (g)   the most  senior whip of each party represented in the Council.

  (2)   A whip referred to in subrule (1) (f) or (g) who is unable to
       attend a meeting of the Committee may designate another whip to
       attend the meeting.


  To amend rule 157(1)(a) and (b) by deletion of the words in bold
  brackets and insertion of the words underlined


  Composition
  157. (1) The Committee of Chairpersons consists of –
  (a)   the [Chairperson of Committees] House Chairperson Committees;
  (b)   the [Deputy Chairperson of Committees] House Chairperson
       Oversight and Institutional Support; and
  (c)   the chairperson of each select committee or a member of that
       committee designated by the chairperson.

 2) The Committee may co-opt the chairperson of an ad hoc committee as
    a member of the Committee.

  To amend rule 158(1) and (2) by deletion of the words in bold brackets
  and insertion of the words underlined

  Chairperson
  158. (1)  The [Chairperson of Committees] House Chairperson Committees
         presides at meetings of the Committee of Chairpersons.

      (2)    If the [Chairperson of Committees] House Chairperson
         Committees is not available the [Deputy Chairperson of
         Committees] House Chairperson Oversight and Institutional
         Support presides at a meeting of the Committee.

  Report to be considered.

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Council of Provinces

1. Report of the Select Committee on Education and Recreation, on the Membership to the Centre for Scientific and Technical Information (ICSTI) 09 November 2005

   The Select Committee on Education and Recreation (NCOP), having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Membership to the Centre for Scientific and Technical Information, referred to it on the 16 September 2005, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Membership.

2. Report of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs on the Provisional Suspension from Office Mr M F Mathe, an Additional Magistrate at Pinetown, dated 7 November 2005:

   The Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, having considered the report on the provisional suspension from office of Magistrate M F Mathe, tabled by the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development in terms of section 13(3)(b) of the Magistrates Act, 1993 (Act 90 of 1993), reports as follows:

1)     The Select Committee noted from the  report  that  the  Minister
   provisionally suspended Mr Mathe on the 22 August 2005 in  terms  of
   section 13(3)(a) of the Magistrates Act, 1993.  The  report  of  the
   Minister indicated reasons for the provisional  suspension  and  was
   tabled in Parliament on 23 August 2005, in compliance  with  section
   13(3)(b) of the Magistrates Act, 1993.

2)      The Select Committee invited Mr Mathe on the 30 August 2005  to
    submit written  representations  to  the  Committee  regarding  the
    recommendation of the Magistrates Commission. The Committee did not
    receive any response to the invitation by the 13 September 2005.


3)      The Select Committee  noted  that  Mr  Mathe  is  charged  with
    stealing monies belonging to a deceased estate in the amount of R16
    200,00 during the period between December 2002 and January 2003.


4)       In  terms  of  section  13(3)(c)  of  Magistrates  Act,  1993,
    Parliament must as soon as is reasonably possible pass a resolution
    as to whether or not the provisional suspension of  the  magistrate
    is confirmed. The Select Committee considers the allegation  to  be
    of such a serious nature as to make it inappropriate for Mr.  Mathe
    to perform his functions as magistrate while the  inquiry  referred
    to in section 13(3)(e) of the Magistrates Act,  1993  is  held  and
    therefore recommends that the Council Assembly resolve  to  confirm
    the provisional suspension of Mr. Mathe in terms of section 13  (3)
    (c) of the Magistrates Act, 1993.
5)      The Committee further recommends  that  a  progress  report  in
    respect of the inquiry of the Magistrates Commission be  tabled  in
    accordance  with  the  provisions  of  section  13(3)(f)   of   the
    Magistrates Act,  1993  and  the  first  report  to  be  tabled  in
    Parliament by the 13 January 2006.

Report to be considered.

1. Report of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs on the Provisional Suspension from Office of Mr M S E Khumalo, Head Office at the Amsterdam Magistrate Court, Dated 7 November 2005.

   The Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, having considered the report on the provisional suspension from office of Magistrate M S E Khumalo, tabled by the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development in terms of section 13(3)(b) of the Magistrates Act, 1993 (Act 90 of 1993), reports as follows:

   (1) The Select Committee noted from the report that the Minister provisionally suspended Mr Khumalo from office on the 22 August 2005 in terms of section 13(3)(a) of the Magistrates Act, 1993. The report of the Minister, which indicates reasons for the provisional suspension, was tabled in Parliament on 23 August 2005, in compliance with section 13(3)(b) of the Magistrates Act, 1993.

   (2) The Select Committee invited Mr Khumalo on the 30 August 2005 to submit written representations to the Committee regarding the recommendation of the Magistrates Commission. The Committee did not receive any response to the invitation by the 13 September 2005.

   (3) The Select Committee noted that Mr Khumalo is charged with stealing monies belonging to a deceased estate in the amount of R240 951,96 during the period between 31 July 1999 and 3 April 2001.

   (4) In terms of section 13(3)(c) of Magistrates Act, 1993, Parliament must as soon as is reasonably possible pass a resolution as to whether or not the provisional suspension of the magistrate is confirmed. The Select Committee considers the allegation to be of such a serious nature as to make it inappropriate for Mr Khumalo to perform his functions as magistrate while the inquiry referred to in section 13(3)(e) of the Magistrates Act, 1993 is being held and therefore recommends that the Council resolve to confirm the provisional suspension of Mr Khumalo in terms of section 13 (3) (c) of the Magistrates Act, 1993.

   (5) The Committee further recommends that a progress report in respect of the inquiry of the Magistrates Commission be tabled in accordance with the provisions of section 13(3)(f) of the Magistrates Act, 1993 and the first report to be tabled in Parliament by the 13 January 2006.

Report to be considered.

1. Report of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs on the Repeal of the Black Administration Act and Amendment of Certain Laws Bill, 2005 [B 25B - 2005] (National Council of Provinces – sec 76), dated 9 November 2005:

   The Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, having considered the subject matter of the Repeal of the Black Administration Act and Amendment of Certain Laws Bill [B 25B – 2005] (National Council of Provinces – sec 76), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 76 Bill, endorses the classification of the Bill and reports the Bill with amendments [B 25C -2005].

The Committee wishes to report further, as follows:


     1.  The  Committee   expressed   its   concern   that   the   Black
        Administrations Act, 1927, is only being repealed after 10 years
        into the new constitutional dispensation and raised the question
        whether there is still other discriminatory legislation  on  our
        statute  books.   The  Committee   consequently   directed   the
        Department   of   Justice   and    Constitutional    Development
        (“Department”), through the South African Law Reform Commission;
        to  undertake  an  audit  of  all   discriminatory   legislation
        administered by it that is still in force and to report back  to
        it in this regard by 31 January 2006.


     2.  The Committee further instructed the Department to:


          (i)       research  the  question  of   the   protection   of
             proprietary  rights  of  all  categories  of  women   whose
             marriages are not recognized as valid marriages in terms of
             the Marriage Act, 1961, for example, Muslim marriages,  and
             to report back to it by 31 January 2006 on progress made in
             this regard, giving an  indication  of  the  scope  of  any
             legislation that might be necessary in order to provide the
             protection envisaged;


          (ii)     report back to it by 31  January  2006  on  progress
             made with the enactment and implementation  of  appropriate
             substitute legislation which is  currently  dealt  with  in
             sections 12 and 20 and  the  Third  Schedule  of  the  Act,
             dealing with the judicial functions of traditional leaders;
              and


         (iii)     report to it by 31 January 2006 on how the amendments
             to section 2 of the Administration  of  Estates  Act,  1965
             regarding the jurisdiction  of  the  Masters  of  the  High
             Courts over the property of all minors impact on or  relate
             to, the  Children’s Bill, 2003, and  how  the  property  of
             minors, particularly minors who have  been  orphaned  as  a
             result of the HIV/Aids pandemic, is dealt with.


 4. The Committee instructed the Department  of  Provincial  and  Local
    Government, in consultation with  the  provinces  in  question,  to
    report to it by 31 January 2006 on progress made with the enactment
    and implementation of appropriate substitute provincial legislation
    on matters currently dealt with in –


         (i)  section 2(7), (7) bis, (7) ter and (8) of the Act, dealing
             with the powers of the Governor-General to  appoint  chiefs
             and prescribe their duties, powers and their conditions  of
             service; and


         (ii) if applicable, section 5(1)(a) of the  Act,  dealing  with
             the powers of the Governor-General to define the boundaries
             of the area of any tribe or tribal settlement and with  the
             amalgamation of tribes or parts of  tribes  into  a  single
             tribe or the constitution of a new tribe.

     4.            The  Committee  instructed  the  Department  of  Land
         Affairs, as the lead Department, together with the  Department
         of Provincial and Local Government, in  conjunction  with  the
         provinces in question, and any other  relevant  authority,  to
         initiate  an  inter-departmental  investigation  in  order  to
         determine -


          (i)      whether there will be  any  unintended  consequences
             which  will  be  brought  about  by  the  repeal   of   the
             subordinate  legislation  that  has  been  kept  alive   by
             sections 5 and 8 of the Abolition of  Racially  Based  Land
             Measures Act, 1991; and
          (ii)     progress made in identifying, repealing or  amending
             such subordinate legislation, or enacting new  legislation,
             as may be required by the circumstances,
             and to report to it by 31 January 2006.

Report to be considered.



                     THURSDAY, 10 NOVEMBER 2005

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Assent by President in respect of Bill

   1) Armaments Corporation of South Africa, Limited Amendment Bill [B 14 – 2005] – Act No 16 of 2005 (assented to and signed by President on 8 November 2005).

2. Translation of Bill submitted (1) The Minister of Finance

     i) Aansuiweringsbegrotingswetsontwerp [W 37 – 2005] (National
        Assembly – sec 77)
   

   This is the official translation into Afrikaans of the Adjustments Appropriation Bill [B 37 – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 77).

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson

 a) Report of the Auditor-General on the Information Systems Audits
    performed at the National Treasury and the State Information
    Technology Agency for the financial year 2004-2005 [RP 209-2005].


 b) Report of the Auditor-General on a performance audit of the
    Management of Sick Leave Benefits at certain National and
    Provincial Departments [RP 215-2005].


 c) Report of the Auditor-General on the financial statements of the
    Special Pensions Board for the year ended 31 March 2005 [RP 217-
    2005].


 d) Special Report of the Auditor-General on the Status of the Delays
    in tabling of Annual Reports and consolidated financial statements
    of National Government for the financial year ended 2004-2005 (as
    at 31 October 2005) [RP 225-2005].

1. The Minister of Education

 a) Report and Financial Statements of the Education Labour Relations
    Council for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General
    on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005 [RP 222-2005].

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Council of Provinces

1. Report of the Select Committee on Education and Recreation on the Education Laws Amendment Bill [B23B-2005] (National Assembly – sec 76), dated 9 November 2005: The Select Committee on Education and Recreation, having considered the subject of the Education Laws Amendment Bill [B23B-2005] (National Assembly- sec 76), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 76 Bill, reports the Bill with amendments [B25C-2005].

                   FRIDAY, 11 NOVEMBER 2005
   

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Translation of Bill submitted

   1) The Minister of Health

   i) uMthethosivivinywa WobuHlengikazi [B 26 – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 76)

   This is the official translation into isiZulu of the Nursing Bill [B 26 – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 76).

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson

(a)    Budget and Strategic Plan of the  Auditor-General  for  2006-07,
     tabled in terms of section 38(2) of  the  Public  Audit  Act,  2004
     (Act No 25 of 2004).

1. The Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry

(a)    Notice No 925 published in Government Gazette No 28058 dated  23
     September 2005: Release of State land  at  De  Mond,  Western  Cape
     Province, which is no longer required for forestry  purposes,  made
     in terms of section 50(4) of the National Forests Act, 1998 (Act No
     84 of 1998).

(b)    Notice No 926 published in Government Gazette No 28060 dated  23
     September 2005: Water Tribunals Rules  made  in  terms  of  section
     148(5) of the National Water Act, 1998 (Act No 36 of 1998).


(c)    Notice No 945 published in Government Gazette No 28053 dated  30
     September 2005: Proposal  for  the  establishment  of  the  Gouritz
     Catchment Management Agency, made in terms of section 78(3) of  the
     National Water Act, 1998 (Act No 36 of 1998).


(d)    Notice No 944 published in Government Gazette No 28053 dated  30
     September 2005: Proposal for the  establishment  of  the  Olifants-
     Doorn Catchment Management Agency, made in terms of  section  78(3)
     of the National Water Act, 1998 (Act No 36 of 1998).


(e)    Notice No 939 published in Government Gazette No 28053 dated  30
     September  2005:  Establishment  of  the  Crocodile   (West)-Marico
     Catchment Management Agency (Water  Management  Area  No  3)  which
     covers the Northern part of the North-West Province,  North-Eastern
     part of Gauteng, the South-West portion of Limpopo Province  and  a
     small portion of Western Mpumalanga and is bordered by Botswana  on
     its North-Western side, made in  terms  of  section  78(1)  of  the
     National Water Act, 1998 (Act No 36 of 1998).


                      MONDAY, 14 NOVEMBER 2005

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)

 (1)    The JTM on 11 November 2005 in terms of Joint Rule 160(3),
     classified the following Bill as a section 75 Bill:


     (i)     Revenue Laws Second Amendment Bill [B 41 – 2005] (National
          Assembly – sec 75)


 (2)    The JTM on 10 November 2005 in terms of Joint Rule 160(4),
     classified the following Bill as a section 76 Bill:
     (i)     National Land Transport Transition Amendment Bill [B 38 –
          2005] (National Assembly – sec 76)


 (3)    The JTM on 14 November 2005 in terms of Joint Rule 160(6),
     classified the following Bill as a section 77 (money) Bill:


     (i)     Revenue Laws Amendment Bill [B 40 – 2005] (National
          Assembly – sec 77)

TABLINGS

National Council of Provinces

1. The Chairperson

   The comments of the National House of Traditional Leaders (NHTL) on the Forestry Laws Amendment Bill [B 24 – 2005] dated 11 November 2005 are hereby referred to the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs and copied to the Portfolio Committee on Water Affairs and Forestry for information.

Copies of the comments are available at the office of the Clerk of the
Papers.

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. Report of Joint Budget Committee on the Medium Term Budget Policy Statement (MTBPS) 2005, dated 11 November 2005:

Introduction

South Africa’s growth strategy aims to modernise the economy and improve its competitiveness, while broadening participation and enhancing social inclusion. The 2005 Medium Term Budget Policy Statement addresses these goals, outlining the expenditure plans and policy aims of national departments and provincial governments. (Foreword, MYBPS 2005).

The Joint Budget Committee reports as follows:

The Minister of Finance, the Honourable Trevor Manuel, tabled the Medium Term Budget Policy Statement (MTBPS) before Parliament on 25 October 2005. Sitting as the Joint Budget Committee, the Portfolio and Select Committees on Finance were briefed on the MTBPS by the Minister of Finance and the Director-General of the National Treasury.

The Joint Budget Committee also heard submissions from selected economists, National Departments, non-profit and research organisations from 27 October to 02 November 2005 under the following themes:

• Rural Development and Urban Renewal
• Justice and Protection Services
• Employment and Economic Growth
• Social Services
• International Trade

The report is divided into broad sections. Section 1 outlines the presentation of the National Treasury, as well as submissions of economists on the MTBPS. Section 2 outlines submissions of departments and other organisations on the MTBPS. Section 3 lists the general concerns and recommendations of the Joint Budget Committee on the MTBPS.

Joint Budget Committee Mandate

The Committee’s mandate regarding the MTBPS requires it to consider the distribution of available expenditure against government policy priorities. This mandate is separate from that of the Portfolio and Select Committees on Finance, which respectively deliberate on the macro-economic, fiscal and intergovernmental aspects of the MTBPS.

The Committee has interpreted its mandate to mean that it should consider the following:

• The likely impact of expenditure allocations in the MTBPS on the effectiveness and efficiency with which departments can respond to government’s stated policy priorities, • Whether departments are making the tough choices required, tailoring their planned expenditures to priorities, choosing effective strategies and seeking efficiency in implementation. The hearings aim to address these issues and prepare the Committee and Parliament for its deliberations and vote on the Budget itself.

1. Briefing by National Treasury

The Minister of Finance, the Deputy Minister and the Director General of Treasury briefed the Committee. The Minister opened with the statement that “No country can grow only on the basis of their macro-economic policy, but no country can grow without it.”

The key themes of the 2005 Medium-term Budget Policy Statement (MTBPS) were targeting of new funding in line with the Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative (ASGI), while maintaining standing budget priorities. The ASGI prioritises infrastructure development, education and skills and second- economy interventions, while standing priorities are housing/the built environment, the progressive social security net and developing the capacity of the state. The growth forecast was strongly positive, despite a high current account deficit and oil price pressures, and inflation is expected to stay within the target band. Fiscal expansion continued, growing by R78 billion or 6.3%, due to a strong economic performance and there were significant increases in allocations for each sphere of government. Public sector capital formation increases, while debt service costs continue to decline.

Additional allocations and conditional grants over the MTEF period include: • R20 billion for investment in the built environment – housing, community and physical infrastructure; • R12 billion for education, health, libraries, social grants, cultural institutions and sports participation; • R9 billion for economic services, including science and technology, and development and industrial policy initiatives; • R7 billion for improved courts, policing and Defence equipment and access to justice services; • R8 billion for improved public administration. The provincial budget saw R46 billion added, R30 billion to the provincial equitable share, R15 billion added to conditional grants and a further R1 billion to be spent on the provincial infrastructure grant. The Director General noted that the MTEF includes an allocation of R24 billion to municipalities to compensate for the terminated RSC levies. Local government receives an additional R2 billion over the MTEF period in addition to the RSC replacement.

Investment in human resource development, institutional capacity and skills development in all spheres of government were a major focus of Committee concern. It raised the questions of whether a skills audit had been done. The recurring problem of municipal-level capacity and skills deficits, and particularly whether there was sustainable skills transfer by Project Consolidate, came under focus. Underspending by and fiscal dumping on municipalities were also questioned, and why under-performing and underspending departments and institutions continued to be compensated. Concerning the impact of skills deficits on underspending, the Treasury team highlighted poor planning systems as a cause of underspending, not merely poor financial management. The decreased budget deficit reflected limited viable expenditure possibilities, according to the Treasury. Quality of proposed expenditure programmes had to be taken into consideration when allocating budget resources. In tracking performance, there needs to be measurement of outcomes for effective oversight, not merely the inputs.

1. Economists’ comments

Four economists commented on the MTBPS. All were broadly positive about the direction of fiscal policy, though skills constraints and the effect of the regulatory burden, especially on small business, were common concerns.

Independent economist Noelani King Conradie warned that the current consumer-led boom cannot achieve 6% a year growth unless matched by export- led growth in production capacity. Tax cuts would help create jobs, and she believed that there was enough room in the budget to cut taxes without cutting spending or driving up the deficit. Equally important were steps to make it easier, simpler and cheaper to do business in South Africa and introducing more innovative and generous incentives to stimulate small business.

Nazeema Moola of Merrill Lynch agreed that the regulatory burden on business should be lifted to stimulate business development. While the infrastructure development programme envisaged by government would encourage some small business development, more could be done to help small business by lowering company taxes and deregulating the labour market.

Riefdah Ajam of the Federation of Unions of SA said the Reserve Bank’s recent inflation projections were too negative. She believed inflation would peak in February 2006 at about 5.5 percent as oil prices moved down to about $50 (R338.50) a barrel and telecommunications costs continued to fall.

Cecil Mlatsheni of UCT focused on youth unemployment and measures required to bring it down. Skills training initiatives have limits, given a lack of aggregate labour market demand. However, lack of skills in turn limits growth. Schooling efficacy is a major cause for concern and FET colleges an important intervention, but more information on the effect of education mechanisms on growth and employment is required.

1. Theme 1 (Rural Development and Urban Renewal) Thursday 27 October 2005

Recurring issues of local and departmental capacity, and effectiveness of coordination between government institutions, were key areas of Committee inquiry under this theme.

The Department of Provincial and Local Government The DPLG briefed the committee on the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Programme (ISRDP) and the Urban Renewal Programme (URP), noting that their main focus was on the second economy. Rural and urban nodal areas were defined and identified. Both these programmes of the department were said to be at the centre of fighting poverty and underdevelopment, and building economic growth in communities. The department stated that currently the nodal areas were growing at 1,8 % per annum and that it had already begun mainstreaming programmes of Project Consolidate in nodal areas. There had been economic profiling of the nodal areas in order to structure economic programmes for them. In conclusion, the department added that their priority areas and programmes were concurrent/consistent with the current MTBPS.

The department agreed with the Committee that co-operation between the DPLG, Treasury and DBSA was of importance. In response to a query about a skills audit, the department noted that its capacity to identify specific needs requires to be addressed. The department added that there were systems being put in place to measure success or the extent of Project Consolidate

Department of Water Affairs and Forestry

The department stressed the importance of its three core programmes; water resource management, water services, and forestry, noting that its business was to address social, economic and environmental problems, as well as managing the economic assets of water resources and forestry. The department presentation concluded by noting that their core principles were in line with the MTBPS and in terms of issues of improving quality of life. The department also added that it had limited financial inputs for water for economic growth and development.

The Committee enquired about the recent typhoid outbreak and moves to prevent another such occurrence, and the DWAF replied that it had established a task team. On the Limpopo drought crisis, the department had done projects to build dams and six dams have been completed. A feasibility study was currently under way for building a dam in Tzaneen. There was also a plan to look at sourcing water from elsewhere, and one such place identified was Gauteng. The department also noted that its water crisis could not be looked at in isolation to the other two countries (Zimbabwe and Mozambique) with which it worked and used water.

The National African Farmer’s Union NAFU started by stating the challenges that it faced, which were the absolute levels of spending in agriculture, and also the cumbersome and slow government programmes. However, it noted that the share of money to agriculture had in fact increased. Weaknesses highlighted were slow processes and limited finance. It recommended that government review its funding, and address the problem of lack of clarity as to AgriBEE programmes. The organisation urged that the department stop creating complex solutions to simple problems. Lastly, the organisation noted the lack of access of black farmers as being of major concern.

Members engaged with the issue of NAFU members being unable to access relief funds and asked about issues of profitability and market access of emerging farmers. NAFU proposed one-stop shops so that people could access these programmes at a lower cost. However, NAFU raised the issue of Agriculture Department officials managing members’ farms on their behalf. Its also stressed the need for government to coordinate service to the people, noting that while the budget was adequate, the manner in which delivery of services was coordinated limited delivery, which resulted in the need for more funds. A Department of Agriculture official then added that it was essential to stop creating new structures to solve problems. She said that structures were in place and needed to be used. In terms of NAFU’s recommendation that implementation be driven by communities, she was concerned about issues of accountability and capacity.

The Department of Agriculture The presentation was short and the department was asked not to continue with the presentation, as it did not address the issues in relation to the MTBPS.

Members wanted to know what measures had been put in place to address the issues raised by NAFU and wanted clarity on the weakness of delivery. Land Use Management coordination within district municipalities was raised. The Committee enquired how many beneficiaries requesting assistance from MAFISA received it. In terms of underspending on CASP, one member wanted to know if a performance audit had been conducted in order to assess the impact of MAFISA on intended beneficiaries

The department noted that it was working together with the Department of Land Affairs. It then noted that MAFISA was launched in three nodal areas, and in terms of progress, it said that it was currently screening applications. In relation to the criteria used to determine allocation of funds to provinces for CASP, the department said that it considers the amount of land in province to the amount of land already distributed. On the issue of land use and the coordination of municipalities, the department said that it was working closely with municipalities and that municipalities were encouraged to identify land that could be used for agricultural purposes.

The Department of Land Affairs The Department noted that with a cumulative 1.827 million hectares already redistributed, against the 2014 target of 25 million hectares, there was cause for concern, and this was one of the main reasons for the recent land summit.

In response to a Committee question on meeting the 2008 objective of settling all land claims, the department noted that performance was not that good and that there were many challenges. The challenges ranged from a lack of financial management skills to the fact that it was now dealing with rural land claims, which were more complex. In terms of state land being distributed, the department noted that state land was negligible and that it was dealing with capacity issues. About funding for land reform, the department said focus on the medium term would be on restitution and that more money for land reform will be made available on the medium term.

One member requested a follow-up on the Spatial Development Framework and wanted to know what measures were in place to ensure compliance by the municipalities. Capacity constraints were given as the reason.

1. Theme 2 (Security and Justice) 31 October 2005

The Committee was concerned about coordination and communication within the cluster and following up on issues raised in the 2004 MTBPS hearings.

Department of Safety and Security The Department noted that the SAPS operational priorities are in line with the MTBPS, as well as those of the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security Cluster. Additional funding enables capital expenditure on facilities and capacity building for border control, additional personnel and the revised reservist system to take over the SANDF commandos.

The department responded to the committee enquiry saying that all spending priorities identified in the previous year had been achieved. In relation to Scarce Skills Indicators, the department confirmed that it had developed a model, and that the process was currently being refined. The department stated that reduction in crime by 3, 4, and 5% in the past few years was an indication of the seriousness with which its officers took crime. To address crime prevention, the department noted that it was important to co- operate with other clusters. On the above point the department added that it was working with other clusters, in such programmes as the Nodes, Project Consolidate, and the Urban and Rural Renewal programme.

Questioned about commandos, and regarding the relationship between the SAPS and the SANDF, the department noted that there was equipment that was being transferred to the SAPS from the SANDF.

The Committee enquired about vehicle management. The department responded by saying that it did make provision for vehicles per annum, and that the vehicle fleet grew by 3000-4000 units/year. The department added that this process also included replacement. In terms of resourcing, the department noted that it needed to sustain these vehicles. When looking at the vehicle (process) model, the department felt that its model was sufficient.

The Committee recommended that current priorities be linked with last year’s, and stressed the importance of integration and the need for greater co-operation within the cluster. The department took note of this and added that maybe there needed to be greater involved of the other units in its cluster in this budget hearing.

The Department of Defence The department outlined its budget history since 1994 and set out its nine priorities for the 2006 MTEF. Key areas are equipment modernisation; military skills development; information and communication systems; Defence infrastructure and ARV rollout.

The committee wanted to know whether the department’s concern, raised in last year’s presentation, about expectations that were not reflected in the MTEF, notably peacekeeping, had been addressed. The department replied that last year’s presentation was still an ongoing issue and that the National Treasury was indeed helping them. The funds allocated the department noted as being insufficient, and it was considering topping-up the allocation from its internal budget.

On bad conditions in military hospitals, the department noted that maintenance was the key and that it was working with Public Works and that there was progress. In terms of personnel in Burundi, the department said that it could not scale-down on personnel due to elections. The department submitted that there were a total of 1287 members currently deployed in that operation.

On the issue of land restitution, which the department addressed in its presentation, the Committee wanted to know why this matter was not transferred to Land Affairs, as it concerned state land. He also noted that the department had said last year that the Treasury had approved partial funding for some of its initiatives and wanted to know how much this partial funding was.

On the issue of land restitution, the department noted that it was in constant communication with Land Affairs and that it had gone before the Land Affairs Portfolio Committee. In terms of other funding to address shortfalls, the department said that it had a total of R821 million, R500 million from the budget, R300 million from internal budget and R21 million from external funding, which would be used for deployment. The department said that there was a shortfall in the amount that it had requested in the previous year. The priorities that the department stated were still in the process of being processed, according to the department

The Committee was concerned about the R1 million which the department had underspent, and the way departments pleaded poverty, yet were underspending. The Committee said that departments had to be monitored carefully during the move to the end of the financial year. On the issue of Land Restitution, the Committee proposed that the department be given six months to sort out and hand over this issue to Land Affairs, and focus on Defence issues. The proposal was accepted.

Department of Correctional Services In terms of the MTEF allocations, the department provided additional funding to its Information and Communication Technology programme. The budget allocation saw an increase of 10,2% from the 2005 to 2006. For its spending proposals, the department mentioned its ‘Centre of Excellence’ initiative. The department also signed a contract with an employment agency to assist in its recruitment drive. The department noted that it needed 8000 additional personnel to kick-start its seven-day establishment initiative by March 2007. It argued that it contributed to job creation, to the second economy and to the African agenda, but faced challenges regarding anti-corruption measures, overcrowding and detention of children

The Committee’s concern was again the lack of integration within the cluster. He noted that the department had stated in the previous year that the MTBPS favoured other departments in the cluster and wanted to know what the department had done to address this. The next question was on the financial implications of a seven-day week, whether this initiative had been costed, whether it was more economical than a five-day week with overtime. Members put a series of additional questions.

On the issue of recruitment numbers, the department noted that in terms of its White Paper, costing and planning costs were huge, and that the White Paper was a 20-year vision. On the issue of immediate recruitment, it was added that pay for overtime in the 2002-03 financial was in excess of R200 – R300 million, which showed the overtime system was not affordable. Since the phasing in of the seven-day Establishment there had been direct cost savings, which were being used to increase recruitment and to deal with backlogs. With regard to possible continued corruption despite use of employment agencies, the department noted that it had delegated to three agencies since about 6 million people applied for 1000 posts at a time. This volume was impractical for the department to deal with. The department did, however, note that corruption was concern and that its needed to speak to the agencies in order to monitor what was currently happening.

In relation to the question about its medical aid, the department said that it had a fully funded non-contributory medical aid scheme in place and, like all other state employees, correctional service workers were contributing 1,5%.

On the issue of restructuring salaries, the department said that it was finding it very difficult to restructure salaries/income levels, since salary increases had to be looked at in terms of what work was done by the personnel/correctional service officials. Asked about a possible discrepancy between numbers of personnel the department wanted to recruit and the number of personnel already recruited, the department noted that it intended to recruit 8000 over the MTEF period and up to 3 000 were being recruited per year. The estimated cost for this initiative over the MTEF was R750 million. In relation to a question on the cost implications of the change from the overtime system, the department could not respond.

The department responded to a question about management of awaiting-trial prisoners that this was due to slow processing and low conviction rates. The department suggested that integrated planning occur between departments. Even with the remissions which were granted earlier this year, only 32 000 awaiting trial prisoners were released, leaving a further 51

1. While the department noted that this 51 000 was still in its care, it said that there were initiatives between departments to address this.

One of the initiatives was participation between departments, even at a local level. Another measure was the possible release of prisoners who were granted but could not afford bail of R1 000 and less. While the long duration of awaiting-trial prisoners was acknowledged as a problem, other contributing factors were mentioned, such as persons being arrested with insufficient evidence.

The difficulty was also said to lie with the judiciary not fully implementing alternatives to sentencing. The department noted that it continued to raise these concerns with the judiciary and that there was agreement (in a meeting in September) amongst all departments that there needs to be improvement.

Another measure taken by the department was to put together a proposal, which would be addressed to the government legkotla next January about the detention of awaiting-trial prisoners. In terms of the Inmate Tracking initiative, the department noted that it did encounter problems and therefore the projects were not fully implemented yet. The department added that a Task Team was established to report on the effectiveness (and cost) of an Inmate Tracking System. The idea of the new correctional service (‘New Generation’) facilities was to have smaller units of no more than 60 offenders grouped by age and programmes, etc. In terms of their design, consultation was done with Public Works, in order to ensure that these facilities would be escape-proof. The department said that it was in the process of getting tender bids, which was done with Public Works. It became apparent that the bidders had very high prices, and almost doubled what the department had budgeted for. The department had then submitted the bid offers to an independent quantity surveyor and will reconsider alternatives once the quantity surveyor’s report is available. The process would also be put on hold until then. In terms of the two private prisons, the department noted that an investigation was done of the two contracts and that the department was advised that there was no value for money in these two initiatives. The department added that this was realised after it had already signed the contracts. What the department said it would and could still negotiate was the money in terms of insurance, as cost of buying out of the contract was too high. In response to the question of capital underspending, the department said that it was due to the delay of building.

Department of Justice and Constitutional Development

The department identified capacity building, and especially prosecutorial capacity building, in leading to reduction in awaiting-trial prisoners. The department acknowledged underspending in some respects and mentioned that it was addressing the capital budget underspending as well.

The department’s report was commended for taking into consideration the cluster approach. On the issue of capital underspending, the Committee urged that something be done. Referring back to the department’s presentation from the previous year, the Committee noted that the department had said that it would increase access to the justice system for all, particularly vulnerable groups. On this issue the Committee wanted to know how far the department was in terms of dealing with these issues.

Questioned about underspending on capital items, the department responded that it was also concerned. However, by dealing with issues of personnel, it was dealing with infrastructural capacity, and that it was filling posts. In terms of improving access and building infrastructure, the department said that courts had been built. Responding to concern about lack of financial statements, the department said it was undertaking an advertising bid for a consortium to handle money and trust funds.

In terms of personnel expenditure, the department noted that there were areas with insufficient personnel, and a process was being embraced that separated judicial and administrative functions so that judicial officers could perform only those functions directly relating to their jobs, which the department believes will increase efficiency. The department highlighted the commitment made by the Treasury to assist it by increasing the number of police and prosecutors.

About the current status of awaiting-trial prisoners and diversion alternatives, the department said that it was addressing and exploring mediation and arbitration alternatives, and increasing the capacity of advocates. The department also said that it was working on improving court efficiency by working on details for the rollout of their Reagoboso programme. In terms of providing access and service to vulnerable groups, the department said it had already rolled out secure-care facilities in some provinces, and that these would be rolled out in the others.

The department noted that there was improvement in the dealing with sexual offences but that there still needed to be further strengthening of capacity. In its interaction with Public Works, the department noted that there was still room for improvement and that as soon as it was able to address its infrastructural issues it would be better able to interact with Public Works.

Institute for Security Studies

The ISS made a written submission. It viewed the MTBPS positively and endorsed the emphasis of government on the need to find an appropriate balance between personnel numbers and salary levels, and between support and front-line delivery staff in the Defence sector. It supports South Africa’s growing role in African peacekeeping, but is concerned about the reduction of landward defence, and urges the SA Army’s need for modernisation of main equipment.

The ISS welcomed the paid-reservist system for the SAPS, but again urges reconsideration of the phasing out of the territorial reserve, arguing for its role in coping with natural disasters, as well as its rear area protection role.

1. Theme 3: Employment and Economic Growth (MTBPS Hearings) 01 November 2005

The Committee inquired in some detail into the performance of departments and was concerned when presentations did not address the Committee’s mandate and when issues raised in 2004 were not dealt with.

Department of Transport Transport services and infrastructure are the veins and arteries of economic growth, according to the Department of Transport. The department stated that in terms of its priorities, it aimed for economic growth, job creation and bridging the gap between the first and second economies.

Also as a department it stated that it wanted to improve access to public transport, starting with rail, which carries 2,2, million passengers daily. There has been a 31,9% growth in rail passengers. The ‘Gautrain’ would be integrated with the existing rail network. The department mentioned that 58 contracts had already been awarded for bus subsidies and that R7 billion would be spent on the taxi recapitalisation process. Some 100,000 taxis would be recapitalised at a cost of R50 000 each. This R7 billion was said to include that training of traffic officers. The conversion of taxi permits to route- based licences was seen as a way to reduce inter-taxi association conflict. The department stated that Eastern and Western corridors would be rolled out at all the provinces. The department noted that the restructuring of the Road Accident Fund was underway. SANRA was said to have taken over provincial roads. In preparation for the 2010 World Cup, the department noted that an additional R241,7 million had been allocated to the department in adjusted allocations, and an additional R3,5 million was allocated for infrastructure. For rural transport, the department noted that R90 million was allocated, which the department, amongst other things, was going to use for the rollout of bicycles in rural areas.

The Committee was concerned about the 25% rise in vehicle purchase (car sales), which was causing huge congestion in national road networks, infrastructure and maintenance. Underspending in provinces was also a concern. On the issue of the 2010 World Cup, the member wanted to know how sure the department was that its programmes would be done by 2010.

Responding to a question on bus subsidies, the department stated that in all countries, public transport was subsidised, and that this was value for money and reduced the cost of public transport to commuters. The department also noted that subsidies to smaller vehicles would drive subsidies to the second economy.

On the issue of conversion of taxi permits to operating licenses, the deadline remained and taxis were expected to comply. Those taxi drivers who did not meet the deadline would not be included in the taxi recapitalisation process. The department confirmed that its 2010 programmes would be finished on time. On the ‘Gautrain’, though, the department was not sure that the project would meet the deadline. It noted that the national government would be assisting the provincial government.

On Basic Management Plans, the department noted that it was still rolling out bicycles. The department also acknowledged the issue of bad roads and the need to provide infrastructure and said that it was providing alternatives. One option that was being considered was that of animal-drawn carts. On access to public transport, the department admitted that it was facing difficulties: not all public transport was being subsidised and there were fiscal constraints. The department hoped that taxi recapitalisation would help in this regard. The department said that it was aware of the rollover of R30,9 million and said that a number of factors contributed to this.

On the issue of train accidents, the department mentioned that it had set up a railway safety regulator to investigate the causes of the accidents and to devise safety regulations. Rail infrastructure would also be upgraded. On taxi recapitalisation, the department said that R250 million was allocated although not a single taxi had been recapitalised. The department reassured members that systems were in place and that agreements have been concluded with manufacturers in this regard. The department said that the manufacturers would only be able to provide vehicles from June 2006 and that the department was still helping provinces prepare for recapitalisation. On the issue of Limpopo being unable to provide licence renewal notices, the department said that the province’s problems were due to administrative shortfalls, which fell outside of the national department’s operations.

Department of Housing The department emphasised that housing development is one of the most important economic indicators in South Africa, and the NdoH is the most important constructor of residential property, producing on average 200 000 subsidised housing units, worth R4,5 billion, and 40 000 in the private sector per annum. Labour-intensive housing programmes create jobs and investment opportunities, while the department prioritises women and youth empowerment.

Concerning issues raised in 2004, the Committee wanted to know what had been done to ensure effective monitoring of fund transfers to the provinces. The department had responded in the previous year that there was limited monitoring. In line with the Human Settlement Strategy, the Committee wanted to know what the department had done to ensure interaction between all relevant government departments and regarding accreditation to municipalities, in terms of capacity issues.

The department responded that there had been discussions but no conclusions in terms of integration and alignment of resources with other departments. On the issue of accreditation of municipalities, a framework had been developed and finalised by MinMec, but at the end of the day it is the provinces that drive accreditation. On this the department also noted that the MinMec and SALGA came to an agreement as to housing delivery. The Housing Sector Plan in the IDP was also said to assist with planning and getting information from communities to help the department plan and respond appropriately.

On the issue of unfinished or blocked projects, the department said that MinMec was working on the unblocking of projects and that guidelines would be provided to emphasise that those who are accountable should account. With regards to the monitoring function, the department stated that a Chief directorate was in place and was efficiently capacitated. On the question of the previous year’s prioritisation, the department said that it was in interaction with other departments. It had noted the importance of capacity building and had established a unit and directorate in this regard. Unintended consequences were those of the constant influx of people from rural to urban areas in search of jobs. The department said that it had now recognised the need to consider quality. For this the department added that it had a rectification process in place, which was designed to improve poorly built houses.

Questioned about unfinished or blocked housing projects, the department said that MinMec was working on unblocking of projects and that guidelines would be provided. These would emphasise that those who are accountable should account. With regards to monitoring of performance of housing institutions, the department stated that a chief directorate was in place for this purpose and was efficiently capacitated. It also noted that MinMec and SALGA came to an agreement as to housing delivery. The Housing Sector Plan in the IDP was in place to assist with planning and getting information from communities to help Housing plan and respond appropriately.

Questioned about the exact number of houses built, the department said that it was not sure and that some of these houses included in this number may still be under construction. Asked whether under construction meant already transferred, the department said that it did not know. On the issue of monitoring, the department said that it was dealing with this. The department said that it was aware of the local authorities’ lack of capacity and that it was taking this into account. On the issue of rural housing the department said that policy was being formulated and that it hoped that it would have a rural housing policy. On the issue of bursaries, the department said that it was in constant contact with the universities in Gauteng, the Western Cape and KZN.

At the end of the presentation the Committee gave the department seven days in which to provide a proper indication of how many houses had been built in each province.

Department of Public Works The department’s presentation summarised highlights from the MTBPS.

The Committee enquired whether the department had considered the MTEF before it came to this hearing. The Committee wanted to know what interaction the department had with business and other government departments and asked how the department intended to deal with the obstacles to service delivery in some provinces.

The Committee also questioned the department about its devolving budgets, including service budgets, to clients. The department explained that the responsibility of paying for services had been with Public Works for all government departments, but because this led to inefficient or wasteful use of services, responsibility for paying for services is now devolved to departments and provinces in the hope of assigning more responsibility in the use of services.

Also by devolving budgets to client departments via service agreements, the department argued that this gave the client department the option of choosing another agency should it feel the department of Public Works was not performing well.

The department noted that there was a general concern about its performance across the board and added that there needed to be greater co-operation and joint planning between Public Works, Health, and Education. The department added that unless it improved its service, other departments would lose faith in it. When building, the department noted that it dealt with the department concerned but not with the public, which could be problematic if the department had not fully considered the public in its planning.

The department was also asked whether it would not be useful to create its MTIP (medium term infrastructure plan) sooner. It responded that there was still on-going discussion on the MTIP and that it was not finalised yet.

Department of Communications The department noted that its priorities and programmes directly affected the second economy. These priorities are Sentech’s infrastructure investments, the SA Post Office network expansion, rollout of regional television broadcasting services, strengthening of ICASA, uncapping the Universal Services Fund, operationalising the Meraka Institute and restructuring itself.

The Committee posed a number of questions regarding institutions. The department noted that it had been following up issues of SAPO providing social grants. The department noted that R750 million was allocated to the SAPO in 2003. On the question of the department requesting more funding yet underspending, the department said that the money underspent was committed. The department said that it was fighting underspending by aligning its planning and implementation processes and hoped to reduce it. The department noted that the issue of compliance to ICASA was important and that in terms of new legislation, the plan would be to register licences speedily, and for this ICASA would require more money. On costly telephony in rural areas, the department suggested that wireless technology was the way forward and that it did note the challenges when it came to the rural areas. The department said that it had been speaking to SALGA and had noted that in district municipalities’ concern was more for things such as water and housing provision and not for communication. There was a ‘battle between food and telephones’, meaning that people did not see a direct gain in such communication technologies. The department also acknowledged that there was potential for link up between departments. On the issue of huge spending towards the end of the financial year, the department said that it was on target with its spending.

FEDUSA Presentation The Federated Unions of South Africa (FEDUSA) focused on employment and skills issues in its presentation. A major constraint noted was the lack of skills in the public sector. The organisation suggested that public-sector salaries be addressed and professions such as teaching and city planning be promoted. There should be more spending on infrastructure programmes in order to enhance the ability to deliver and business should be brought on board. FEDUSA added that Public Works programmes needed to reconsider their wages and allow for sustainability of people. It also proposed more spending on child and old age grants, better salaries for police, nurses and doctors, etc.

With regard to SETAs, when asked about FEDUSA’s contribution to skills development, FEDUSA said that it was undertaking initiatives, such as learnerships, together with SETAs and National Boards, and had an input into other sectors as well. On the issue of Public Works wages, FEDUSA noted that there was some progress but found that people were using up their wages just to get to work.

Business Unity South Africa (BUSA) BUSA endorsed the target of a 6% growth rate and emphasised the importance of enterprise development in attaining this. Small and Medium Enterprises in particular should be encouraged, especially by cutting red tape. In ascending order, regulatory burdens were RSC levies and SETA levies; PAYE and UIF deductions; SARS tax administration; labour laws; CCMA cases; bargaining councils; and VAT. BUSA urges adoption of a regulatory impact assessment strategy by government. It noted that although the broad outlook is optimistic, local level partnerships are required for service delivery, as well as increased savings and foreign direct investment.

Asked about the issue of CEOs’ pay and accountability, BUSA added that CEOs were accountable to shareholders and board members. Concerning skills deficits, BUSA said that there was not enough skilled decision-making. Price-setting too had to be looked at in context as a percentage of investment. When considering the ideal corporate tax rate, BUSA suggested that the issue was how South Africa compares with other countries. BUSA noted that there was a case for bringing rates down further. When looking at assistance to small businesses, BUSA said that it was important to look at where the responsibility lies for slow delivery. It noted that meetings were often held at national level and asked why there were no meetings at a local level. BUSA noted many gaps and suggested that a joint initiative was needed. BUSA also suggested that the political sphere at the local level have an open door, noting that the local level is not always as open as the provincial and national levels.

6.Theme 4: Social Services (MTBPS Hearings) 02 November 2005

The Committee posed detailed questions about delivery, particularly to rural areas and the poor.

Department of Home Affairs Presentation The department is made up of two core services, namely civic service and immigration. In immigration, the department hopes to attract scarce skills to the country, in order to contribute to overall economic growth. The department is in alignment with the government’s plan of action, and of the seven points highlighted in the State of the Nation Address, the department said that its core focus was on number four; that of enhancement of social security. The department sees itself as playing a fundamental role in the Social Cluster by providing essential documents. On its impact on Social Cluster issues, the department said that it was in partnership with other departments in the provision of social services.

The Committee was concerned about the department’s budget adequacy to serve rural areas, especially with identity documents. The Committee noted that the department underspent by R388 million in the previous year and therefore wanted to know how the department would ensure that this year’s budget would be spent. Another question was raised on the issue of scarce skills and what the department was planning on doing about South Africans living abroad who had these relevant skills.

Concerning the adequacy of its budget for identity document campaigns in rural areas, the department responded that the expenditure trend in the department had been low, as it was mainly allocated to capital/IT-related programmes, which were important for service provision. But now the department said that it was looking to the future and servicing of rural areas, and mobile units activities will be extended to December.

It was important to enhance human capital through staff recruitment rather than merely requesting additional resources. On the question of underspending, the department noted that it was currently standing at 41% expenditure of this current budget. In comparison to the previous year’s expenditure of 34% by September, the department felt that it was doing well. It was also noted that there were currently on-going projects, which would be receiving further funding in the next six months. On facilitation of recruitment of South Africans in other countries, the department said that this was a catch 22, in that it could not do much about those who were not patriotic and could not force people to move back. The department noted that through the Immigration Act, it was trying to import scarce skills, and together with the Department of Trade and Industry, it was trying to build those skills capacity within the country.

Questioned about the influx of illegal immigrants, the department said that it did acknowledge this as a challenge and that the BCOCC was created in order to address this problem and to ensure co-ordination between departments (such as SAPS) to deal with this issue. The department added that it was also involved in deportation, noting that another problem was that of people who come into the country with legitimate documents and then disappear once in the country. On the issue of capacity building, the department clarified that it was talking about the capacity to fill posts, and strategic capacity, such as IT systems and infrastructure (offices in certain areas). On the issue of utilising youth structures, the department assured the committee that the department was part of internship programmes and that some of these interns go on to fill posts in the department. On some initiatives the department interacted with uMsobomvu, who funded the programmes. The challenges of duplicated IDs the department hoped to address with the introduction of the ID smart cards, which it said would be implemented by September of the following year. The problem of children having more than one birth certificate the department said was sometimes due to mothers registering their children more than once. The other problem here is that the department does not take the fingerprints of children and is therefore unable to trace this.

Department of Social Development The Department’s presentation said that it promotes opportunities for marginalised communities in economic activity to improve the quality of life of the poor. It maintains a progressive social security net and invests in community services and human development. It significantly improves the capacity and effectiveness of the state by promoting service- oriented public administration. Consolidated social development spending grew by 28,8% in the three-year period to 2005/06, and will grow at an annual rate of 11,6% in the coming MTEF. The largest portion spent is on social assistance, which consumes 92% of the total budget.

The Committee raised the issue of eligibility for social grants and skewed allocation. The department responded that there were different grants, the eligibility for which differed. On the issue of delays in processing of grants, the department answered that it had set up agencies to do this: a grant application should ideally take two days, but that there were delays, which were mostly caused by the skewed staff-to-beneficiary ratio, which in some provinces was at 1: 1800. The department acknowledged the fact that it did not have enough staff on the ground level, but said that there were some improvements and that even more were underway. On the question of using the SAPO to distribute social grants, the department said that the SAPO would be the service provider of choice but that it would have to demonstrate that it could provide this service at a cost effective and efficient manner.

Altogether 6,3 million children are at present receiving grants, and for those children whose documents were still being processed, the department said that provision was made for them and it could still obtain grants. Research done showed that a significant number of people were living above the poverty line because of the social grants provision by the department. The department stated that it did have a plan/strategy in place to retain and recruit social workers and is looking at salary issues and the working conditions of social workers. It is working with the Department of Public Works to ensure an increase in the stipend for volunteers/ care-givers, from R500 to R1 000. Department of Health The department’s key initiatives are upgrading and revitalisation of hospitals, additional funding for medical equipment and information systems, and consolidation of primary health care services under provincial administrations.

The Committee commented that in the training of health professionals, the department had to interact with health councils. The issue of accountability of managers was also raised. On this issue, the department stated that there were strategic obstacles and management capacity problems. Clinics in the rural areas face challenges and upgrading them to medical centres was not possible for lack of doctors. This reiterates the Human Resource question yet again. The department said that it was considering a strategy to expand the mid-level workers pool; therefore focusing on increasing the number of pharmacists, medical assistants, and training medical aides for nursing work. It noted that emphasis on numbers might also undervalue quality. As part of its retention strategies for nurses it was looking at reviewing structure of training.

On the issue of training colleges, the department said that most of the tutors for these were by now in the UK and were discouraged by the fact that it would have to start at the lowest level, as per Nursing Regulations.

The department said that it was on track with its malaria reduction targets. Similarly, regarding the ARV roll-out, the department said it was on track. On its competence to do DNA forensic analysis at hospitals, the department said that this was a very specialised field and could not be provided at all hospitals, though it was being done in Pretoria. The department is trying to decentralise this to the hospitals in provinces. In the case of suspected rape, especially of children, testing has to be done through the police, who had more competence in this regard. Department of Education The department summarised the increases to the national baseline and to the provincial Equitable Share as set out in the MTEF.

  Responding to questions, in terms of higher education  the  department
  noted that there was  a  throughput  problem  and  that  the  Minister
  contemplated an enrollment planning initiative. On the  issue  of  its
  difficulty  in  retaining  temporary  and  substitute  teachers,   the
  department agreed that their conditions  were  unacceptable  and  said
  that some provinces were moving speedily to ensure sure that temporary
  and substitute teachers were absorbed permanently.

The department noted the importance of FET and technical skills, adding that this was not only a South African problem. The department assured the committee that once good FET colleges were set up, a considerable improvement would be seen. On the issue of teacher shortages, and especially schools with no mathematics teachers, this was said most probably to be a problem of the management systems, with the School Governing Bodies having the final say on who gets appointed. In relation to the Early Childhood Development, 600 000 children in rural areas were said to be on this programme and it was still expanding.

On the issue of no-fees schools, the department said that this would not happen this year, but that no-fees schools would formally be declared by

1. It also noted that not all schools would be no-fees schools. On school transport, the department said that this was a provincial competency, although the department acknowledged the challenges. On the issue of safety at schools, the department said that it did have initiatives in place, but also stressed that it encouraged community involvement and participation in this regard. The People’s Budget The People’s Budget approved the expansionary fiscal policy of the MTBPS and awaits the Accelerated Shared Growth Initiative to see if increased spending will translate into benefits for the majority of South Africans. Relatively high housing expenditure is good, though current programmes are inefficient and replicated apartheid settlement programmes. There is a concern that the Treasury does not review the ARV rollout in the MTBPS. The People’s Budget is concerned about the low budget deficit and questions expenditure trends within the period of reducing the deficit.

With regard to fiscal discipline, the People’s Budget argued that compared to other countries, the deficit could have been relaxed more in order to allow for spending. On the issue of expenditure trends, the organisation noted that there were capacity constraints.

SALGA SALGA endorsed the MTBPS measures to boost socio-economic activities and expand social services and income support. It noted that some needs were not addressed, such as the next phase of the National Skills Development Strategy, the expansion of the Child Support Grant and allocations on environmental health services. Clarity is needed on devolution of bus and taxi subsidies to municipalities.

The Committee noted that SALGA raised challenges and wanted to know whether SALGA had any plans of overcoming these obstacles. SALGA was also asked what it thought about the lack of skills and whether it thought that the budget would address this issue. SALGA was asked to comment on the issue of skills and the competence of municipal managers in relation to the level of service provided. One member added that SALGA needed to look at training of councilors rather than leaving problem articulation to the community. SALGA mentioned that even in the apartheid era, skills deficits at the local level were a factor, but that together with the DPLG it was addressing this issue. On the competence of municipal mangers, SALGA noted that a performance contract has now to be signed by these managers, and that there were key performance measures and indicators. SALGA said it was aware of the issues of capacity at local level and also noted that most of the local government service challenges lay in the provision of housing. On the issue of youth involvement in the IDPs, SALGA mentioned that it had a roll-out plan for youth programmes. On the question of child-headed families, SALGA said that there were initiatives in place to help in this regard, such as the provision of food parcels to the children, through the social workers, and that it did have other alternatives.

IDASA IDASA submitted its review of spending in the MTBPS, noting that the redistributionary effects of social spending do show effective targeting towards the poor. Inter-group inequality is falling, but there is a net increase in inequality within groups.

IDASA argues that more spending is possible by increasing the deficit. It reviews infrastructural spending implications and the need to improve effectiveness of public spending. It reviewed the MTBPS in the light of its consideration of HIV/AIDS and the rights of children.

7.Theme 5: International Trade (MTBPS Hearings) 02 November 2005

Department of Trade and Industry The DTI’s presentation focused on its foreign trade interventions. The DTI’s key policy initiatives for the year are the launch of the Angola and DRC strategic development initiatives; preparation for and participation in the African Peer Review mechanism; further development of bilateral relations with key African countries; continue with US FTA negotiations and the launching of China and India negotiations.

The department mentioned that it wanted to build structures for greater regulation and interaction. The department mentioned that the role of the International Trade Agreement was to open up markets for South Africa, Although it was noted that South Africa has some competitive advantage, the department mentioned that there were other elements that influenced trade issues; such as import duties in other countries, multi-lateral and bi- lateral barriers. The department said that it was looking at securing preferential agreements through bilateral agreements. The department said that it did not differentiate between FDI and portfolio flows, but that their main focus was on services and trade.

When questioned about the accessibility of the department to rural areas, the department responded that there was an initiative for rolling out to provinces and municipalities, so that products of the department could be made available at municipalities. There was close co-operation between DTI and local government on the issue. The department also noted the difficulty of accessibility to markets and said that it was looking into it.

Recommendations

The Committee recommends as follows:

1. The Committee recommends that Parliament enhance its effectiveness in monitoring the capacity of departments to implement progressive policies.
2. The Committee recommends that Parliament pay particular attention over the medium term to the effectiveness of facilitating policies regarding the key MTBPS priorities of human and institutional capacity development and infrastructure investment, as well as the focus on growth, macroeconomic stability, raising the employment capacity of the economy and reducing the gap between the first and second economies.
3. In considering the Budget documentation of key departments such as the Departments of Home Affairs and Social Development, Parliament should satisfy itself that such Departments have monitoring systems in place, ensuring that their implementation supports their policies and that their policies have the required outcomes. This will enable timely policy adjustments.
4. The Committee recommends that Parliament strengthen monitoring and oversight of expenditure trends between National MTBPS functional allocations and Provincial budget allocations to the smaller spenders supportive of social and rural development and job creation (i.e. housing, land affairs, tourism and agriculture) to address concerns of adequate financing at provincial level.
5. Parliament should explore ways to influence cooperation and complementarity rather than competition between departments, particularly coordination of planning between departments in the same cluster.
6. Parliament should follow up on the amendment of strategic plans in order to align them with the MTBPS.
7. The Committee should carry out oversight visits, in particular to development nodes.

Report to be considered.

National Council of Provinces

1. Report of the Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs on the Precious Metals Bill [B 30B - 2005] (National Assembly – Section 75), dated 14 November 2005:

The Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs, having considered
the subject of the Precious Metals Bill  [B 30B – 2005] (National
Assembly – Section 75), referred to it and classified by the Joint
Tagging Mechanism as a Section 75 Bill, reports the Bill with proposed
amendments as follows:


                              CLAUSE 1


1. On page 2, from line 31, to omit “; or such other refined precious
   metal as the Regulator may prescribe “and to substitute “, or such
   other refined precious metal as may be prescribed”.


                              CLAUSE 24


1. On page 13, in line 25, to omit “certificate,”.


2. On page 13, in line 28, to omit “certificate,”.

3. On page 13, in line 33, to omit “certificate,”.

1. Report of the Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs on the Additional Protocol to the Trade, Development and Cooperation Agreement (TDCA) between the Republic of South Africa and the European Community (EC) and its Member States, dated 14 November 2005:

   The Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Additional Protocol to the Trade, Development and Cooperation Agreement (TDCA) between the Republic of South Africa and the European Community (EC) and its Member States, referred to it, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approves the Agreement.

Report to be considered.

1. Report of the Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs on the National Credit Bill [B18B - 2005] (National Assembly – Section 76), dated 14 November 2005:

   The Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs, having considered the subject of the National Credit Bill [B 18B - 2005] (National Assembly - Section 76), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a Section 76 Bill, reports the Bill with amendments [B18C - 2005].

2. Report of the Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs on the Diamonds Amendment Bill [B 27B - 2005] (Reintroduced) (National Assembly – Section 75), dated 14 November 2005:

   The Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs, having considered the subject of the Diamonds Amendment Bill [B 27B – 2005] (Reintroduced) (National Assembly – sec 75), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a Section 75 Bill, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

                     TUESDAY, 15 NOVEMBER 2005
   

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Bills passed by Houses – to be submitted to President for assent

 (1)    Bill passed by National Council of Provinces on 15 November  2005:

         i) Patents Amendment Bill [B 17B – 2005] (National Assembly –
            sec 75)

National Council of Provinces

The Chairperson

1. Messages from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces in respect of Bills passed by Assembly and transmitted to Council (1) Bills passed by National Assembly on 11 November 2005 and transmitted for concurrence:

 (i)    Special Pensions Amendment Bill [B 28B – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 75)
 (ii)   Auditing Profession Bill [B 31B – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 75)

 The Bills have been referred to the Select Committee on Finance of the
 National Council of Provinces.

 (2)    Bills passed by National Assembly on 15 November 2005 and
     transmitted for concurrence:

     (i)     Constitution Twelfth Amendment Bill [B 33B – 2005]
         (National Assembly – sec 74)

     The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on Security and
     Constitutional Affairs of the National Council of Provinces.

     (ii)    Adjustments Appropriation Bill [B 37 – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 77)

     (iii)   Revenue Laws Amendment Bill [B 40 – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 77)

     (iv)    Revenue Laws Second Amendment Bill [B 41 – 2005] (National
         Assembly – sec 75)

     The Bills have been referred to the Select Committee on Finance of
     the National Council of Provinces.
     (v)     Electricity Regulation Bill [B 29B – 2005] (Reintroduced)
          (National Assembly – sec 75)

     (vi)    Diamonds Second Amendment Bill [B 39B – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 76)

     The Bills have been referred to the Select Committee on Economic
     and Foreign Affairs of the National Council of Provinces.

1. Referrals to committees of papers tabled

   (1) The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs for consideration and report:

        a) Report and Financial Statements of Vote 22 – Department of
           Defence for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-
           General on the Financial Statements of Vote 22 for 2004-
           2005 [RP 159-2005].
   

   (2) The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on Labour and Public Enterprises and the Joint Monitoring Committee on the Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Children, Youth and Disabled Persons for consideration and report:

        a) Report and Financial Statements of the Umsobomvu Youth
           Fund (UYF) for 2004-2005, including the Report of the
           Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2004-
           2005.
   

   (3) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs for consideration and report:

        a) Group Annual Financial Statements of the National
           Empowerment Fund for 2004-2005, including the Report of
           the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for
           2004-2005.
   
        b) Report and Financial Statements of the Micro Finance
           Regulatory Council (MFRC) for the year ended 31 December
           2004.
   

(4) The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on Local Government and Administration:

  a) Report of the Auditor-General on the Submission of Financial
     Statements by Municipalities for the financial year ended 30 June
     2005 [RP 221-2005].

(5) The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on Finance:

  a) National Treasury Consolidated Financial Information for the year
     ended 31 March 2005, including:

(i) Report of the Auditor-General on the Consolidated Financial Information of National Departments, National Revenue Fund, State Debt and Tax and Loan Accounts of the National Treasury (“Department”) for the year ended 31 March 2005;

(ii) Report of the Auditor-General on the Consolidated Financial Information of Constitutional Institutions, Schedule 2, 3A and 3B Public Entities and Trading Accounts (Entities”) for the year ended 31 March 2005.

(6) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Labour and Public Enterprises for consideration and report:

a) Report and Financial Statements of Vote 17 – Department of Labour for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote 17 for 2004-2005 [RP 113-2005].

b) Report and Financial Statements of the Unemployment Insurance Fund (UIF) for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005.

(7) The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on Public Services for consideration and report:

a) Report and Financial Statements of the National Housing Finance Corporation Limited for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005.

(8) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs for consideration:

a) Government Notice No 763 published in Government Gazette No 27846 dated 05 August 2005: Correction Notice to amend Government Notice No 533 published in Government Gazette No 27641 dated 10 June 2005 to substitute the word “Calitzdorp” for “Ladysmith”.

b) Government Notice No 767 published in Government Gazette No 27846 dated 05 August 2005: Notice of List of Protected Tree Species, made in terms of section 15(3) of the National Forests Act, 1998 (Act No 84 of 1998).

c) Government Notice No 780 published in Government Gazette No 27859 dated 01 August 2005: Rates and charges, made in terms of section 11 of the Water Research Act, 1971 (Act No 34 of 1971).

d) General Notice No 1391 published in Government Gazette No 27877 dated 05 August 2005: Publication of draft Forestry Laws Amendment Bill for comment.

(9) The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs for consideration and report:

a) Report and Financial Statements of the South African Veterinary Council for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005.

(10) The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs and the Joint Monitoring Committee on the Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Women for consideration and report:

a) Special Report from the South African Women Entrepreneurs – A burgeoning force in our economy for 2005.

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Labour

 a) Report and Financial Statements of the Forest Industries Sector
    Education and Training Authority (FIETA) for 2004-2005, including
    the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for
    2004-2005 [RP 90-2005].

1. The Minister of Minerals and Energy

a) Report and Financial Statements of the Mine Health and Safety Inspectorate for 2004-2005 [RP 125-2005].

National Council of Provinces

1. The Chairperson

a) Report of the 51st CPA Conference held in Nadi, Fiji from 1-10 September 2005.

b) Report of the 36th CPA Africa Region Conference held in Yaounde, Cameroon from 28 July – 6 August 2005.

c) Copies of the Reports are available from the office of the Clerk of the Papers

d) Notice of dissolution of Abaqulusi Municipality in terms of section 139(3)(a)(ii) of the Constitution, from the MEC for Local Government, Housing and Traditional Affairs (KwaZulu-Natal).

Referred to the Select Committee on Local Government and Administration for consideration and report.

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Speaker of the National Assembly and the Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, as joint co-chairpersons, present the First Report of the Joint Coordinating Committee on the African Peer Review Mechanism dated 15 November 2005 as follows:

2. Introduction

President Mbeki formally submitted South Africa to a peer review process under the African Peer Review Mechanism (APRM) on 28 September 2005.

The APRM is an African-owned and driven initiative that seeks to improve governance and national management. It is voluntarily acceded to by the Member States of the African Union as an African self-monitoring mechanism. The main purpose of the APRM is to encourage participating Member States to ensure that their policies and practices conform to the agreed political, economic and corporate governance values, codes and standards. It further seeks to ensure that the mutually agreed objectives in socio- economic development elaborated in the New Partnership for Africa’s Development (NEPAD) are achieved.

The process of self-assessment and review would take approximately nine months to complete (October 2005 to July 2006) and is divided into five stages:

1. Stage One: A review of the country in terms of the four areas of the questionnaire. The Draft Self-Assessment Report and Draft Programme of Action on key issues identified during the self-assessment is developed for submission to the APR Secretariat. The Draft Self- Assessment Report and Draft Programme of Action are sent to Parliament for comment (December 2005), before finalisation (February 2006). The Secretariat develops an Issue Paper based on the country’s self- assessment report and programme of action and background paper prepared independently by the APR Secretariat. (October 2005 - February 2006). The Issue Paper will highlight the key issues in the country for the furtherance of democracy, good governance and socio- economic development.

2. Stage Two: Visit by the APR Team for extensive consultations with all stakeholders. The country also consults widely to build consensus on how to respond to the Issue Paper. These consultations include Parliamentarians. Parliament may also have an opportunity to submit comments on the Issue paper to the APR Secretariat and the Focal Point. (February 2006 - April 2006).

3. Stage Three: The APR Team develops its report based on the consultations conducted with Government, Parliament, civil society, business sector community groups etc., country self-assessment report and programme of action, Issue Paper and responses thereto. (April 2006 - May 2006).

4. Stage Four: The APR Team submits its report to the APRM Secretariat and the APR Panel. After deliberation by the Panel, the report is submitted to the APR Forum for consideration and formulation of actions. (May 2006 – June 2006).

5. Stage Five: Public tabling of the report and related actions. This occurs six months after consideration of the report by the APR Forum. (June 2006 – December 2006).

The Country Self-Assessment for the African Peer Review Mechanism Questionnaire forms the basis of South Africa’s self-assessment. The questionnaire is divided into four sections containing specific objectives, questions and indicators. The Sections of the questionnaire are Democracy & Good Political Governance, Economic Governance and Management, Corporate Governance and Socio-economic Development.

1. Background

In South Africa, the Minister of Public Service and Administration has been appointed as South Africa’s Focal Point for the process. The Minister will be responsible for the overall management of the process and will chair a National Peer review Governing Council comprising five Ministers of the South African government and ten civil society representatives.

On 16 August 2005 the Acting Minister for Public Service and Administration, Hon. Dr. EG Pahad, invited Parliament to participate in South Africa’s self-assessment and peer review process.

After extensive discussions to determine the most suitable location of Parliament within the country process, the Presiding Officers concluded that it is imperative that the role of Parliament reflects and upholds the democratic principles of separation of powers and independence of the legislature. Furthermore the Constitutional mandate of Parliament to maintain oversight of Executive authority and to facilitate public involvement in its processes must be respected. Parliament is playing an active and independent role in the country self- assessment and review. This includes proactive responses to the questionnaire to be submitted to the Focal Point. Parliament will also comment on the final self-assessment report and the programme of action and make contributions to the country response to the Issues Paper prepared by the APRM Secretariat. Parliament should also have an opportunity to comment on the Country Report issued by the APR Team. The Parliamentary processes will be underpinned by a robust public involvement campaign and public debate on issues and reports to be reviewed.

One of the primary objectives of Parliament’s involvement in South Africa’s Peer Review process is to facilitate public awareness and ensure effective public participation.

1. Structure

Given the short timeframe for the completion of the review process, the Speaker of the National Assembly and the Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces established joint committees in order to streamline the Parliamentary processes. With due consideration to the expertise required to further the work for Parliament’s APRM process, the Presiding Officers appointed Members of Parliament to the following joint committees:

 Joint Co-ordinating Committee on the African Peer Review Mechanism

❑ Speaker of the National Assembly (Joint Chairperson) ❑ Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces (Joint Chairperson) ❑ Mr O Bapela ❑ Ms F Hajaig ❑ Mr DJ Sithole ❑ Mr TS Setona ❑ Mr J Seremane ❑ Ms S Vos ❑ The Chairperson of each of the Joint Ad-hoc Committees

The following Joint Ad-hoc Committees based on the four sections of the questionnaire:

    a) Joint Ad-hoc Committee on Democracy & Good Political Governance

❑ Mr R Baloyi (Chairperson) ❑ Ms H Mgabadeli ❑ Ms S Camerer ❑ Mr P Nefolovhodwe ❑ Dr P Mulder ❑ Ms Nkabinde ❑ Mr J Sibiya

    b) Joint Ad-hoc Committee on Economic Governance & Management

❑ Mr V Smith (Chairperson) ❑ Mr Nkem Abonta ❑ Mr M Lowe ❑ Mr L Greyling ❑ Ms F Mahomed ❑ Ms J Semple ❑ Ms H Lamoela

    c) Joint Ad-hoc Committee on Corporate Governance

❑ Ms B Hogan (Chairperson) ❑ Ms S Seaton ❑ Mr L Labuschagne ❑ Mr V Gore ❑ Mr I S Mfundisi ❑ Ms H Bogopane Zulu ❑ Mr MA Sulliman d) Joint Ad-hoc Committee on Socio-economic Development

❑ Mr R Mohlaloga (Chairperson) ❑ Ms L M Mashiane ❑ Mr SJ Njikelana ❑ Ms C Dudley ❑ Ms S Kalyan ❑ Ms U Roopnarain[1] ❑ Ms NF Mazibuko

Dedicated administrative, research and committee support staff assist each joint committee.

1. Mandate of Joint Committees

The Joint Coordinating Committee was established to, inter alia:

❑ Develop a broad programme for the Joint Ad-hoc Committees that parallels the roadmap for the review process emanating from the broader country process. This includes Parliament’s response to the APR Questionnaire during the Self-Assessment process, Parliament’s comment on the Draft Self-Assessment Report and Programme of Action submitted to Parliament by the Focal Point, Parliament’s Comment on the Issues Paper prepared by the APR Secretariat, Parliament’s comment on the Country Report prepared by the APR Team. ❑ Liaise with the Peer Review Governing Council and the Focal Point as required. ❑ Oversee, coordinate and provide direction to the work of the Joint Ad- hoc Committees. ❑ Present reports to Parliament. ❑ Submit Parliamentary reports to the Focal Point as necessary.

The Joint ad hoc Committees were established to, inter alia:

❑ Identify key strategic issues for a Parliamentary response to the specific sections of the peer review questionnaire. ❑ Develop detailed work programmes, including public participation activities. ❑ Draft a Parliamentary response under the thematic section of the peer review questionnaire for which the committee was established. ❑ Comment on the Draft Country Assessment Report and Draft Programme of Action. ❑ Comment on the Issues Paper developed by the APRM Secretariat. ❑ Submit reports to the Coordinating Committee.

1. Process & Progress

The Joint Coordinating Committee and the Joint Ad-hoc Committees have held regular meetings to discuss Parliament’s approach to the peer review questionnaire and to develop work programmes. The Joint Coordinating Committee will continue to meet weekly. The Joint Ad-hoc Committees will meet at least once or twice a week. Hearings and Committee meetings may be conducted away from the seat of Parliament. A draft Parliamentary Report is expected by mid-February 2006.

Parliament’s APRM process is supported by a comprehensive media and communications strategy. This includes print and electronic media incorporating community radio broadcasts in all official South African languages, radio and television talk shows and interviews and popular information materials.

The following progress is noted:

❑ The Joint Ad-hoc Committees are involved in independent research and networking activities and the collection of secondary data.

❑ The Joint Ad-hoc Committee on Socio-economic Development held public hearings from 7-9 November 2005. Other Joint Ad-hoc Committees plan to hold public hearings between November 2005 and January 2006.

❑ The Minister for Public Service and Administration made a statement in the National Assembly on 13 October 2005. This was followed by a debate in the National Assembly.

❑ The Presiding Officers addressed letters to the Speakers of Provincial legislatures informing them of the APRM process, Parliament’s role in South Africa’s self assessment and peer review and encouraging the support and participation of the provinces.

❑ The Presiding Officers addressed letters to the Speakers of 18 municipalities (two in each province) informing them of the APRM process including Parliament’s role in the process. Municipal Speakers were encouraged to identify suitable municipal structures to facilitate Parliament’s engagement with local communities on the issues to be reviewed.

❑ The Joint Coordinating Committee met with the Focal Point and the APRM Country Support Mission led by Professor A Adedeji at Parliament on 9 November 2005. The meeting exchanged views on the implementation of the APRM, particularly focusing on the approach that the South African parliament had adopted and the Parliamentary process envisaged. It was agreed that future coordination between the Parliamentary APRM structures and the National Peer Review Governing Council be encouraged to ensure exchange of perspectives and heightening a quality country process and outcomes.

1. Recommendations

1) To ensure the success of Parliament’s involvement in the peer review process, members of the Joint Coordinating Committee and Joint ad hoc Committees should, as far as possible, be temporarily relieved of their other Parliamentary duties.

2) Chief Whips, leaders of political parties, Portfolio and Select Committee Chairpersons should, as far as possible, relieve members of the Joint Coordinating Committee and Joint Ad-hoc Committees from their political and other tasks in order for them to advance their APRM programmes as much as possible before the festive season.

(3) Where necessary, the Joint Coordinating Committee and the Joint Ad- hoc Committee members should be allowed to attend relevant meetings during Parliamentary recess. Only such an approach will enable Parliament to fulfil the APRM mandate within the limited timeframe we have.

National Council of Provinces

1. Report of the Select Committee on Local Government and Administration on the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) Convention on Combating Bribery of Foreign Public Officials in International Business Transactions, dated 15 November 2005: The Select Committee on Local Government and Administration, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) Convention on Combating Bribery of Foreign Public Officials in International Business Transactions, referred to it on the 7 November 2005, recommends that the Council, in terms of Section 231 (2) of the Constitution, approve the said Convention.

Report to be considered.

1. Report of the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs on the Forestry Laws Amendment Bill [B 24B-2005] (National Assembly – sec 76), dated 15 November 2005:

   The Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs, having considered the Forestry Laws Amendment Bill [B 24B-2005] (National Assembly – sec 76), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 76 Bill, reports the bill with without amendment.

2. Select Committee on Finance on the National Council of Provinces Oversight visit to DBSA-Funded Projects in the Eastern Cape Dated: 10 - 15 October 2004 and 07 - 10 August 2005:

   Introduction: From the 10 – 15 October 2004 the Select Committee on Finance of the National Council of Provinces undertook an oversight visit to the DBSA- funded projects in the Eastern Cape. This was a follow-up visit to the previous visit that was undertaken from 07 – 10 August 2005.

   The main objectives of the first trip in 2004 was to afford the Committee the opportunity to familiarise itself with the activities of the above-mentioned institution, to observe the functioning of the DBSA and how it complied with its mandate as an institution, aiming to build infrastructure capacity by means of major projects in the province and local municipalities. Also looking at the value-for-money investments currently rolled-out in provinces and capacity building at municipal level.

Also looking at the following issues: · Corporate Governance · Overview of activities under DBSA Supervision · Views on project undertaken during 2004 and past years · Projects successfully completed, including problems experienced, possible solutions and prospects for the future and how does the bank fit into the extended public works programme of government.

The report aims to capture some of the highlights of the study tour and does not claim to have captured the detail in its entirety. All activities during the study tour captured in this report aims to give a snapshot of the event during the period of our visit.

The follow-up oversight visit to the Eastern Cape in 2005 was to further exercise oversight pertaining to matters that was raised during the previous visit and those sites that were not visited at the time.

The report consist of two parts: part A will contain the visit to the Eastern Cape during 2004 and part B contains the report of the oversight visit during 2005. Each has its own recommendations and conclusions.

Part A: DBSA-Funded Projects in the Eastern Cape Dated: 10 - 15 October 2004 Monday, 08 August 2005 A. Kwezana Village Interaction During October 2004 the Select Committee on Finance visited the Nguni Cattle Project, an initiative between the Fort Hare University and the local community at the Kwezana Village. During our interaction government sponsors were also acknowledged.

In 2002 the Kwezana Village people received a heifer from the University of Fort Hare. Bulls from the community were then used to crossbreed to prevent in close up breeding. This would ensure good genetic offspring, more resilient to the harsh conditions in the area, and would secure a well- defined gene pool.

The chairperson indicated that the committee wanted to be certain that the people of the community are the real beneficiaries and that the provincial government has a dual responsibility to this effect with the DBSA. The provincial government should proceed with the good work.

Comments from the community indicated that it was a painful process but well worth the effort. At the outset they could not understand the process or where they would end up with the Nguni cattle. However, the end product and long-term idea is becoming more real at this stage and they are extremely proud of the project and process thus far.

Water is a scarce resource and hence boreholes are desperately needed. A number of promises have been made, coupled with applications to government departments. The response is just as dry as the area, posing a serious threat to the Nguni Cattle Project. Department of Agriculture needs to intervene in this regard. However, the extension officers of the departments is not of any help and the ward that has to be served in this regard is not visited.

The provincial government officials that were present indicated that capacity constraints are a challenge. There are ten wards in the area and only five extension officers. The officials indicated that if the extension officers don’t visit, the members of the community must make it a point to go and see them at their offices.

A further proposal was made by DBSA that the Eastern Cape Development Agency, IDP and Municipal Infrastructure Grant be engaged to ensure proper integration, co-ordination and participation.

B. In Summary: A base for economic development should be created, and the bank must bolster institutional arrangements; Infrastructure like the storage of water in dams needs to be looked at; Issues of roads should be taken up with Department to ensure accessibility to markets; Ownership of Nguni cattle individually versus community ownership could be a problem; Engagement with Fort Hare at another level is important; The role of government in the project should be assessed; The participation of the local portfolio committee that accompanied the committee was extremely successful. The portfolio committee will further engage on these and related issues once the committee has left; The participation between the local community and the DBSA should be a partnership of choice; The grazing of the cattle or other input cost should further be examined, e.g. nutrients and other hidden costs at the expense of the community. These eat into the profitability of the project; The primary role of the tertiary institution like Fort Hare cannot be under- estimated. This includes research. Addressing the basic empowerment of the poor community to a level of sustainability is extremely important not only to the project but as their function to the province is concerned. This should be seen as a role model for other knowledge institutions; The Standing Portfolio Committee in the province should also be roped into the oversight activities; DBSA funding should also leave capacity as a knowledge bank after all is said and done; In the interest of food security, a direct link has to be established between Department of Health and Agriculture;

C. Hegebe Women’s Project: (Empowering Rural Women, Youth and Communities). Regional Manager: Oupa Mokwena Gideon Moshewe: O R Tambo and King Sebatha Municipality

Miss Vuyokazi Bodlani and Miss Sandihle Makgaza are the founding members of the Sithembene Women’s Enterprise. As a result of their customer acquaintances and referrals, they were brought in contact with the African Renaissance project that was being run by the SABC as a programme. This provided exposure that saw them visit a number of countries and taking the African theme abroad. They took part in the African week, holding exhibitions in Brazil and other countries. The organisation under-quoted for this event and was soon found to be in financial difficulties due to inexperience in business. The Sithembene Women’s Enterprise has good designers who are currently working with rural women in projects of traditional wear, doing work for some of the leaders in the communities, such as. Enkhosi Holomisa and others.

They got partial funding from the poverty alleviation projects in the province and started a project with Enkhosi Holomisa’s consent. Training centres are planned in the area, which should include boarding facilities because the area is rural and accommodation is a concern. At this stage their own funding is used by these women to keep their projects sustainable. They are also using students from the technikon who completed their studies and do not have jobs. Since these students have some knowledge it would be easier to maintain the standards as internationally required. The centre that they have in mind will also market and sell the products so as to remain viable, feasible and relevant.

The first group of trainees will be graduating in September; the second group will be graduating soon after. A chalet will be built at the centre to give it a tourism vibe.

Another challenge is to assist those members of the community who did not pass matric and to assist with further education. Hence, the schools become essential in the area. For this project they have the full support of the principals in the area as well as the churches.They are building partnerships with the private sector and entering into partnerships with small, medium to micro enterprises. Funds dedicated from the Department of Arts and Culture is only promised for three years, after which they need to be self-sustainable.

A task team from the Usuvumbo Fund has been sent to assist in the area, especially with schools where people can be trained, and to work with and be in line with Local Economic Development programmes that are also in line with the Municipal Intergraded Development Projects. They will also assist with poverty alleviation in schools by aligning these programmes with school feeding schemes, to assist school building in the area by providing the skilled labour and the necessary assistance that will assist with the need for schools. It is important to allow all co-operatives into the projects to create one coordinated functioning body that would also facilitate job creation with departments and to construct a register to allow them to be identified. A corporate directorate, spearheaded by the MEC’s office, will be set up to facilitate the process and to prevent all the red tape around these and related projects.

The Department of Labour indicated that they will bring other departments on board, but to no avail. This includes the Department of Social Development. The Department of Arts and Culture promised to assist in his regard but promises made were never kept. The centre endeavours to link up with Aids-related issues because the lost of good skilled workers is a concern. This includes the untimely death of their designer a week before the committee visited the centre. Another challenge is that the Umsobomvu Fund operates like a bank that benefits more specifically the urban entrepreneurs and leaves the rural development behind. A revised strategy has been proposed by the Director of the fund, Nkululeko Somhlahlo, in the area in order to clear the barriers to entry and to ensure public representation and participation. An urgent and immediate need that was identified is the provision of office equipment and stationary, which should include internet, phone, fax facility and other facilities that would assist with the day-to-day operation of the centre and projects. The response of the Development Bank to this end was that these basic essential would be supplied, funded from the chief executive fund.

The municipality, through its Local Economic Development (LED) programme unfortunately does not make provision for these types of activities since the Integrated Development Programmes and LEDs does not cater for these projects, hence it become difficult for the DBSA to fund these projects. The inflexibility of the mandate creates concern for the Bank to become proactive in some of the social development projects. The function of other funding agencies creates problems in that they do not function as they should and pose a problem which spills over into the mandate of the bank. Integration of other funding agencies and its lack of providing the basic services that start-up businesses need is of serious concern.

The Select Committee on Finance will further engage the Social Development Committee in the province to become our eyes and ears in the province to monitor progress on a constant basis.

Tuesday, 09 August 2005 D. Visit to Great Place as Part of the Hegebe Women’s Project The community women who attended the gathering raised challenges that they face. These include: available water supply, funds for raw materials, creative ideas that exist but do not materialise, access to markets for their products and transport of goods to proper markets given the poor road system. They do, however, have a facility to exhibit their products, which include two small huts for which they do not have to pay any rental. These also serve as training centres.

The chairperson indicated that the committee’s visit endeavours to bring all the stakeholders together, to unlock any bottlenecks that might exist and to source local government funding and, if none exists, to authorise funds to be made available to communities like these. Councillor Ntisitho Maqukanya (Member of the Mayoral Committee), representing the Mayor of Mthatha, was also present.

Other activities include poultry, beadwork, dressmaking and other activities. Challenges include:

I. Poultry: Space, medication for chicks, feeding, sawdust, and transportation challenges to markets. The profits realised do not match the expenditure to maintain these types of farming. It is a possibility to sell to Umtata Hospital and other government institutions.

II. Dressmaking: Not enough machines are available to all the women who are willing to work. These shortages cause tension among the women, all the women have skills and wish to prove their ability. Integration of children into the economic activity in order to deal with the persistence of crime in the area is of importance. The one big challenge is to bring all relevant departments together to ensure progress in these and related areas. Another challenge is to work across boundaries in the interest of development and economic progress in the area.

The committee took note of responses by community members of persons in powerful positions of government, making promises that never materialise. It is a fact that skills do reside within rural communities and these skills have to be exploited to its full potential.

A resolution was taken that Mr Robertson will link up with the relevant communities that the committee has visited and monitor the situation. The chairperson has pledged that the Eastern Cape is the committee’s special project and is determined to see these projects that the committee is visiting to its successful conclusion. The committee is also mindful of the DBSA’s mandate and the flexibility thereof for projects that are economically viable but seemingly fall outside of its mandate, hence the flexibility of the board of the DBSA to take decision in this regard that would have a meaningful impact on the lives of the rural communities.

Constraints facing the DBSA is that the bank has made a R1 billion offer to the Eastern Cape government for social infrastructure development but there seems to be a stalemate on this matter. R500 million was also availed for the Coega project but the banks still awaits a clearance certificate. That seem to stifle the process and hence delay valuable investment and job creation.

Although the bank has offered funds for development, departments are not taking hold of the opportunity, especially for capacity development. The only possible solution could be to request DBSA, National Treasury and the Eastern Cape Government to engage in a round-table exercise in the interest of poverty alleviation, job creation and growth in the province. The bank is thinking of ring-fencing the money available to the Eastern Cape to keep it specific to the function it is appropriated for.

E. Further Issues Identified by the Committee and the DBSA were as follows: To do an evaluation of infrastructure expenditure and to call the MEC on Finance to account. Getting a solid response from the National Treasury and EC Government on outstanding issues as indicated. To assess the capacity of the Eastern Cape to budget in terms of the Medium Term Expenditure Framework. If not, why? In terms of the Thuba Makoti funds, how many schools were build. Outcomes of the first-quarter expenditure. Request the Fiscal and Finance Commission to assist with some of the Eastern Cape research issues. Dealing with the DBSA Annual Report in September. The status of the unoccupied houses in the Fort Beaufort area. Looking at issues of accreditation. Dealing with mother bodies instead of individual bodies, also working with other organisations to match them rand for rand. Request LED officers to present during oversight visits and MIG officers to present at hearings. To invite the National Development Agency to the next set of public hearings and oversight visits. To have some form of integration with other relevant departments when exercising oversight in the province.

Wednesday 10 August

Visit to Coffee Bay During our visit at Coffee Bay, the following issues were strongly noted: The private sector and the community, with co-funding by DBSA, initiated the project at Coffee Bay. Poverty-alleviation funding was also approved for the communities in the area. Plans are in the pipeline for the construction of 50 lodges, to be implemented by the O R Tambo District Municipality through the Ntinga Development Agency. It is noted that the camping ground at the Coffee Bay area still belongs to the government. The rest is communal ground that is in trust. The Maphuzi area will be upgraded to a slip where boats can be made to dock. Due to unregulated access of 4x4 vehicles, the ground is eroded around the area. The area falls outside the nodal area of the province and should remain natural and untouched, hence special permission is required. Ripple development is discouraged; all development should be in one go. DBSA’s position is that no development is agreed too if government is not in favour and laws do not permit.

A. Meeting with Community Headman / Members Presentation: King Sabata Dalindyebo District Municipality

The following issues were discussed: The involvement of more people in projects. Crime in the area and the understanding that it drives tourism out. Residents understand the importance of tourism to the area and are protecting the visitors. Environmentalists are important to assist with impact studies to retain the areas beauty and to advise on matters of development. An environmental impact study has been done in the area. However, a spatial development framework is non-existent at Coffee Bay and Hole in the Wall. Environmental Affairs contributed R100 000. However R300 000 is needed and application was made through the O R Tambo Municipality.

B. Response by the Headman: Mr Jonkikhaya All are in favour of development, although he initially opposed the idea. Five of the villages held meetings and it was accepted that development should take place. It should be in consultation with the community. A matter for concern is that developers want to develop in the area but protocol procedures are not adhered too. Instead of first coming to the Headman, they go straight to the chiefs. Mr J Joja, a sub-headman, agreed with this arrangement.

C. Response of Mr Lenox, a member of the Trust at Chazi He is not opposed to the chiefs and their views. Although development has been accepted, in principle no development is taking place. He requested the committee to scrutinise the developers on their behalf. They are fisherman and do not /cannot initiate any development.

D. Mr Moletana: KSD Municipality Coffee Bay is identified as one of the development nodes of KSD Municipality – ward 1 (Umtata Mouth – Hole in the Wall and some kilometres of the Wild Coast) He indicated that, firstly, the land needed to be assessed. The council approved the development of the land in ward 1. Most planning will be along the coast and then inward. Local municipalities and departments want development but no development framework exists. Hence problems around development arise, resulting in no development.

E. Enkhopo Wild Coast Developers (BEE Company) Mr Bossie Bosman: Manager They are of the opinion that the Eastern Cape Development did not get very far with development in the area. A policy was provided that indicated the intended development around the area: Wild Coast Development No: 720 Policy: (Coffee Bay – First Nodal Development and Hole in the Wall) He stated that they were told to go to the Chief and that the Spatial Development Initiative process had started. Development was proposed from Umtata to the Hole in the Wall. This report was sent to the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism. Up until the committee’s visit no response was received, more specifically with respect to the “record of decision”. Since the community and the developers could not facilitate progress, members of Parliament were requested to intervene in this regard. A poverty relief application was forwarded and received in the sum of R5 million, which will be managed by Ntinga.

F. Development Bank Response: Adhering to the presidential call for development in the Eastern Cape Wild Coast area and other areas in the region, the Bank wants to invest. The Local Investment Agency, in partnership with Old Mutual, is currently funding activities in the Eastern Cape. DBSA helped with the environmental impact study, which was funded by the Bank. The Bank indicated that they would be in discussion with the National Department of Environment Affairs and the provincial environmental affairs department as well as the United Nations Development Agency to look at issues of development and bio-diversity. The bank advised communities to submit individual projects from their own training needs and bigger projects. Partnerships – Community, developers and governments have to work together but the challenge is the legislative framework and the role of the local leaders. To ensure that spatial development laws, in consultation and relation with the community, work to benefit the poor.

G. Alex Wallace: DBSA A project viability study was undertaken at a cost of R400 000. Environmental assessment was approved, the Department of Environmental Affairs now has to issue a ROD (record of decision). Spatial Development Framework, once it is approved will have the support of DBSA . Should all the necessary papers and certificates be issued, Maphuzi, the projects will continue. The camping site: an impact study has been conducted. However, the ROD is still outstanding, hence no development can take place.

H. DBSA Environmentalist: Ms Julie Clarke Human rights issues, land issues and other challenges stall progress. Conservation plan has been identified, next is the spatial development framework and strategies for environmental assessment – these issues should be dealt with by August, hence people in the area need to make input in this regard. Get smaller projects underway while bigger projects are in the pipeline. The environmental impact studies have been completed. They are with the National Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism and a response in this regard is still forthcoming.

I. Further Discussions: It was noted that although all the stakeholders are present, the Environmental Affairs Department was not present, even though they were invited. Poverty relief was given to the area by the national department. The independent developers indicated that the community share in the development would be 45 percent. The record of decision is still an issue and creates the bottleneck in the process of development. The independent developers indicated that seven males and one female was representative of their BEE criteria. This was unacceptable to the committee and they need to revisit their directorship component. This could be equated to fronting which the committee strongly opposes. The composition of the 45 percent is a matter for concern to the committee. A record of decision for the hole in the wall site is still outstanding from the Environmental Affairs Department. The feasibility study of the camping site is still outstanding. Representation of the youth and of women is one of the issues to be dealt with. Disabled involvement is also of concern. The absence of the Department of Environmental Affairs is a matter of concern since they are party to these projects in the decision-making process. The committee decided that they would be engaged at another level. The Bank agreed to participation in spatial development but requested that all decisions be tabled in the council of the municipality to protect the DBSA when they do commit themselves to the R200 000.

Mr Basophu will take the initiative to follow-up matters in this regard and to take issue on these matters with the MEC. The developers are of the opinion that the 45% share holding is a gift to the community in line with their vision and mission. The bank was of a different opinion and indicated that the only giving is from the community side since the land itself is an invaluable gift. The DBSA indicated that they would monitor the funding arrangement between the community and the outside developers while committing itself to assist with technical assistance, especially with the campsite arrangement.

J. Response by Mr Basopho • He made a pledge that this will not be the last of his visits to the area. • Elected officials need to be present at these engagements and not loose structures. • To see if councillors are really functioning or if they are just there in theory. • Although the Department of Environmental Affairs is primary in development in the area, other departments should also be brought in as they might also have funding that the communities are not aware of. • Councillors and chiefs need to work together • The bank wants to encourage the local community and people of the area to submit their applications for smaller projects while the bigger projects are underway.

K. Summary of the Day • More responsive decision-making from government departments is problematic. • Economic Affairs chairperson of the Provincial Standing Committee should own the process. • Policy frameworks should be looked at more closely. • Government agencies should be involve in all projects over which we exercise oversight. • The community was docile around the decision of the chiefs in favour of development that must take place in the area and it would seem that they do not want to oppose the chief. • The board of directors of the developers and the community involvement is questionable. • The way forward is unknown; the community needs to be empowered to be able to see the outcome of the development and the benefits to the community and area. • The bank will provide the full details of the impact assessment study once it is completed. • Tender processes should be re-looked. • Spatial development framework, political management, current developments and tendering these are matters that have to be attended to by the O R Tambo and KSD district municipalities and they should own related processes.

Thursday, 11 August 2005

Presentation By Ntinga indicated the following issues: • In terms of employment creation, 296 jobs could potentially be created. • Projects will be labour intensive, although not of a permanent nature. • Possibility of funding beyond the OR Tambo municipal region is not yet possible. • Cross-boundary initiatives, where both municipalities could contribute in the interest of job creation via sustainable projects, are being explored. • Agriculture via maize production is currently being re-introduced in the area. • The district would take it upon themselves 100% to cover input costs to initiate the project. The district municipality would work with the emerging farmers to cover all inputs to initiate the farming project. • O R Tambo has been identified as the first nodal area of development. • O R Tambo District municipality will collaborate with other departments eg. Social Development Department, in the area as well as with local municipalities, which will include other sector departments to avoid duplication. • The level of collaboration is not well structured, which poses problems. • Regional bodies, local municipalities and ward committees are party to the development. However, a serious problem resides with the ward committees. • The maize crop for this year will be a good harvest although there are still maize left from last year, which poses a storage problem. • Silo’s are in short supply and pose a challenge for further crop production.

A. Coffee Bay Issues • The Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism has opened a tender to companies for development around the area. • Other consultants prepared business plans. • Ntinga got the tender from DET and is currently putting a programme in place. • The O R Tambo Municipality has yet to engage the community at Coffee Bay, so the level of interaction is still at the primary stage. • It has been noted that all the DET projects had to become part of the IDP, which will facilitate O R Tambo to further engage the process. • The relation between maize and cancer in the area has to be investigated further.

B. Chairperson’s Comments • The matter at Coffee Bay is urgent and needs serious attention. • Opportunistic persons use the legislated policy of government to pounce upon the communities by making use of grants earmarked for the poor people, for example. • An urgent meeting needs to be convened between the DBSA and other departmental stakeholders and the communities to deal with issues of structural arrangement, to clarify who will apply for funding, who the recipients will be and the implementers of the projects. • There is currently no knowledge on the O R Tambo side of the situation at Coffee Bay. • Councillors were not present at the meeting at Coffee Bay, hence Mr Basophu has pleaded with officials of O R Tambo to get together, to include DBSA and to relieve the situation at Coffee Bay in the interest of development and the poverty-stricken people in the area. • This is the committee’s second visit and yet nothing constructive is happening. The committee would not want to come back for another visit and tell the community that development cannot take place just because the projects are not linked to the government’s plans and to theIDP’s plans when development is sourly needed. • Ntinga needs to get its act together work closely with KSD Municipality to get the project at Coffee Bay started. The committee should monitor the progress very closely and call officials if non- performance is the order of the day. • R5 million rand was deposited in the account of Ntinga and they need to start working now. Officials of the Ntinga development agency have indicated that they are in the process of moving forward. • The Ntinga officials will engage in discussions with the Departments of Environmental Affairs and Tourism, Land Affairs and Economic Affairs. After this discussion the issues will be taken to the communities and discussed further.

C. Constraints • Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Programme – at the local level this programme is not taken seriously. This poses a challenge. • Unregulated structure – If programmes are implemented, the IDP of the municipality guides relations and the framework. This creates a protocol constraint. • Some confusion exists between the district and regional municipalities, bringing about constraints. • O R Tambo and KSD boundaries create a problem, especially in regard to road construction, where construction would continue only as far as the boundary of a particular municipality. Hence the perception of the people that construction work on roads never finishes. • Anchor projects are non-existent, most of the money spent in the Eastern Cape area does not benefit the local industry as most raw material are bought in the neighbouring provinces, eg. KwaZulu-Natal. • A major challenge is that the province, 11 years later, still does not have an accurate asset register. Capital stock that could be used by the municipality gives to waste and expensive rental agreements are entered into. • Silos in the area, which belong to government, are also a constraining factor since they have been leased out for many years for low rates. • How far the municipality has progressed in terms of accreditation is another matter for concern.

D. Chairperson’s Response: • In view of poverty in the area, the Eastern Cape Development Committee has to be convened to bring all the issues to the table. • District and local municipalities need to come to an understanding of the issues facing them and to open up channels of communication.

Conclusion: The Select Committee on Finance satisfied itself with the follow-up visit to the Eastern Cape that the activities not visited last year and visited during this activity were actually bearing fruit. The committee was, however, concerned about the Coffee Bay development and the complex nature of getting development going in the area. The commitment of the DBSA is without equal, but it is hoped that the Eastern Cape government and relevant role players will approach this matter with greater urgency and make use of the natural resources and beauty that the province has to offer to the benefit of the poor in the area. This form of interaction is not the first of its kind and will most definitely not be the last for the committee. The Select Committee on Finance regards the Eastern Cape as its personal project and will engage these and related matters further.

The committee thanked the DBSA once more and hopeed to proceed in making development, job creation and poverty alleviation a reality not only in the Eastern Cape but in the whole of South Africa.

Part B - Select Committee on Finance of the National Council of Provinces Oversight visit to DBSA-Funded Projects in the Eastern Cape 10-15 October 2004

Monday, 11 October 2004

1. Visit to the Bethelsdorp Development Trust The Bethelsdorp Development Trust (BDT) in its present form is a community- driven entity, whose agenda is to preserve the community heritage, to mulate tourism and create employment through its creative industries cluster concept. The incubation of small micro industries is also high on the agenda and ther is a core focus on the environment, especially the fauna and flora, as well as on water preservation and utilisation.

The visiting delegation was briefed by the founder members of the Bethelsdorp Trust at the heritage centre, also said to be one of the first schools in the area. Amongst the many tasks set before the Bethelsdorp Trust were: • Tourism site in the “Kloof” – to highlight the heritage of the community and to conserve the environment; • To engage in activities that would ensure economic benefits to the community and to use eco-tourism, for example in the four biomes where the Strelitzia Juncea plant flourishes, involving six locations in the Eastern Cape.

1.1 Progress of the Bethelsdorp Outreach Programmes includes: • Taking school children into the Kloof area to get a feel and love for nature and to protect and preserve the heritage; • The weaving factory, as part of arts and culture and forming partnerships with the community; • To restore the village setting and set up a museum with a research component and archive section to preserve the information that is still in existence; • Impacting on school curricula – to advance nature conservation and heighten the understanding of development versus endangered species.

The delegation noted with concern that a vast area of natural beauty was under the watchful eye of only one conservation officer, which indicated a capacity constraint.

1.2 Development Bank of South Africa Involvement The involvement of the DBSA is not very clear in terms of the projects underway, although a development total of R470 000was committed. The weaving factory which is envisaged to provide jobs for disabled persons, youth and women alike, has not yet been put to the test. The project was due to start in July 2004 but although the building is available, the capital infrastructure is non existent, putting strain on the idea of job creation in the area. It should be noted that DBSA will provide money for capacity building and organisational development but a pro-active approach from the bank could go a long way in assisting initiatives of this nature especially when there is no lack of genuine commitment from the side of the community.

1.3 Member’s Input The chairperson indicated that all partners and stakeholders should play their part in order to make this project a success. It was further recommended that since most herbs are currently found in the “Kloof” area, education programmes should take place in consultation with herbalists and traditional healers in the area to ensure that the scarce plant types/endangered species are not wiped out as a result of greed. Conservation must receive priority and proper regulatory measures be taken to preserve the natural assets to the benefit of the youth and the community at large.

1. Visit to the Coega Industrial Development Zone (IDZ) On arrival at Coega, Mr Lionel Billings (Project Manager) briefed the visiting party on the detail of the project. It can in no way be underscored that this is clearly one of the biggest projects of its kind on the African continent. The involvement of the DBSA in this regard is clearly felt on three fronts:

   • Loan funding of R20,7 million to co-fund the Coega Construction Village, with the National Housing Finance Corporation - R62 million and the Coega Development Community (CDC) R43,3 million; • A letter of intent has been provided to the CDC by DBSA, offering an amount of R500 million towards infrastructure development for the Coega Aluminium Smelter as part of the incentive to secure ALCAN to develop the project at Coega; • A memorandum of understanding has been signed between the DBSA and the CDC with regards to strategic support between the two organisations for infrastructure development within the Coega IDZ area as well as development and capacity support.

This nationally driven project, funded out of the national fiscus’ is currently experiencing constraints in certain areas of the project due to a belt-tightening exercise in the Eastern Cape Province. With the main project objective being to beneficiate raw materials for sustainable jobs and job creation, more then just partnerships are needed. The following should be in place: • Public sector commitment; • National Ports Association participation; • Clear planning of Integrated Development Zones (IDZ); • Eskom power upgrade; • Skills development and appropriate labour participation and • National and international foreign direct investment and many other factors.

The approach of clustering industries and services seems to enjoy acceptance on all fronts of engineering and economic development, as it would facilitate co-dependence, product development and maintenance. This development does put pressure on, for example, rail systems and other forms of transport. Hence Coega has consulted other stakeholders to allow exports via the Coega port. Further upward pressure is placed on water resources hence a desalination project is in the process and will be completed in the near future.This is being done to avoid mistakes made by the Cape Town Metro, which is currently experiencing sporadic water restrictions.

2.1 Socio-Economic Impact • Total People Employed – Construction phase since 99/2002 10961 • Total People Employed – Construction phase of project currently 3514 • Number of individuals registered on job-seekers registration programme 57361 • Total number trained under job-seekers register programme 2232 • Candidates in labour pool 2946 • Total Business Registered 4441 • Total Subcontractors 411 • Total Number of SMME Development Contracts 43 • SMMEs enlisted on Mentorship Programme 68

The statistics speaks volumes in terms of the projects currently ongoing at Coega. However, it would be even better still to see the surplus labour in the Job Seekers Database being absorbed into the labour force. These people could be trained in the appropriate industry skills, be it services delivery or technical, to be absorbed back into the full sectoral cluster of activity when all industries at Coega are operational.

2.2 Private Sector Opportunities • Single site developers for investor already considering locating industries in the IDZ; • Developers with an interest in secure light industrial park; • Developers with experience in the logistic industry and distribution centre; • Office-space developers.

2.3 General Observations The level of expectation is always raised above the ceiling of delivery and becomes a challenge and a balancing act of managing people’s expectation of job creation and poverty alleviation versus time. A project of this magnitude does create, amongst others, a fair amount of expectation, not only in the Eastern Cape but also in the county, especially when unemployment is a common phenomenon. It does, however, raise the hope of government, via the Coega Project, making an effort to tackle the issue of poverty and unemployment.

2.4 Challenges • Embedded pessimism exists • Funding Constraints • Declining FDI to Africa • Distortions of BEE • Low Domestic Investment

2.5 Further Assistance is Required • Upgrading of the Rail Line (Sishen to PE) • Project Funding • Alleged negative statement by Provincial MECs • Advertising amongst associates • Distribution of promotional literature • Site visits, eg by Parliamentarians, to further gather understanding of projects • Not talking positively about this national project • Ensure government continues to view the initiative as a national priority • Ensure success of the project

1. Motherwell Urban Renewal Program (MURP) The Motherwell Municipality was identified as a nodal point that would benefit from the expanded Public Works Programme as prioritised by government. The area has a backlog in development that amounts to over R1billion and has no lack in poverty and crime.

The level of unemployment in 2000 (June) was estimated at 40,7% and is escalating up to the 60% level. The income per month is at R520 and 50% of the resident population is unskilled and unemployed. The community is attempting to become self-sufficient and sustainable by means of community food gardens which have been successful and seem to be economically viable. As a result of the high levels of unemployment and poverty the indigent policy is applied. However, the effectiveness thereof is still to be determined.

Currently the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism is in consultation with the University of Port Elizabeth to do a feasibility study on the following MURP projects, which commenced in September 2004: • Xhosa Cultural Village • Nelson Mandela Peace Park • Paving of and greening of Motherwell cemeteries • Addo Eco Tourism Project • Work for the Coast • Motherwell Fish Factory

The estimated value of all these projects amounts to R20,5 million and they are expected to be implemented under the guidelines of the Expanded Public Works Programme for the approximated 365 000 pupils in the area, only 30 schools exist, with only one library is currently in use. A skilled labour force with a desire for life-long learning is unattainable if this situation is allowed to continue.

The Motherwell Presidential Police Station Project and Courts is a project that was earmarked for the Chief Tswete Village and initiated upon a presidential visit to the area. The area for this project has already being prepared and will follow the route of making use of local labour to begin to tackle the problem of unemployment.

The provision of water seems to be a persistent problem as a result of the flat gradient, hence the provision and the pumping of water becomes costly.

3.1 Motherwell Urban Renewal Programme The main project within the programme is as follows: • Motherwell Integrated Transportation Project • NU 2 Sport Stadium • Urban Agriculture / Ploughing fields • Xhosa Cultural Village • Social Development Project – Youth Capacity Building • Small Business Incubator • Employment Centre • Stock Farming • Water meter installation in NU 10, 11 and 12 • Ikomvelihle Pedestrian Bridge

3.2 DBSA Involvement

The DBSA has been supporting the infrastructure development in the Motherwell area for a number of years, by providing loan funds to the former Port Elizabeth Municipality and through the Nelson Mandela Metropolitan Municipality (NMMM). In terms of promoting the Municipal Urban Renewal Programme (MURP), a loan offer of R500 million has also been made to the NMMM to co-fund social and economic infrastructure development in the greater municipal area.

3.2.1 Development Challenges and DBSA Response |Challenges |DBSA Response | |1. Integration of operational |Development fund grant for the | |system within the greater metro |NMMM System Renewal Project | |area | | |2. DBSA involvement in the |Sponsorship of the MURP Launch | |Motherwell Urban Renewal Project |Sponsorship of /or a Provincial | |and the elimination of |URP Launch of R500 Million offer | |infrastructure backlogs |made to NMMM to co-fund | | |infrastructure development. | |3. DBSA support to the Coega ID |MO with CDC signed R20,7 million | |for infrastructure development |loan for Construction Village | | |Project | | |Letter of intent to CDC to provide| | |R500 million for infrastructure | | |development. | |4. DBSA support for community |Bethelsdorp Development Fund Grant| |empowerment development |Loan to Kuzuko Contractual Park | |initiatives |empowerment joint venture | | |Grant to finalise project | | |viability studies for four | | |community / private sector tourism| | |project on the Wild Coast. |

3.3 Presentation by Mr Pillay: Cacadu District Municipality Cacadu has an approximate population of 376 000. Challenges seemingly are around towns along Spoornet lines which are in economic collapse due to the closure of Spoornet lines and rail stations. The revenue stream is reduced from R150 million to R15 million, the rest of the money goes to the metros. Approximately 50% of the staff at the municipality is on a contract basis and has strong performance-driven contracts. When asked if the municipality owed the auditor general any money, the answer was a confident no. However, the department of Health owe the Cacadu approximately R12 million. Department of Roads and Transport owe the municipality approximately R3 million.

Mayor Faku indicated in his speech that unemployment is a major problem. Due to a lack of proper research in the municipality these poverty statistics cannot be properly quantified and hence the statistics are somewhat spurious.

Tuesday, 12 October 2004

1. University of Fort Hare (Town: Alice) The Acting-Vice Chancellor Prof D Swartz welcomed the visiting delegation and proceeded with a brief historical rendition of the institution, highlighting the caliber of leadership that was produced by the institution. However, enrolment numbers are dwindling hence the university has been given an urban base, linked to the Rhodes University (East London) – Fort Hare Rhodes University.

The DBSA interest is around agriculture capacity building. A memo of understanding has been drafted for the following: • Upgrading of Residence / Development; • To forge a strategic partnership between the two institutions; • The partnership aims to address some of the challenges facing local government in the Eastern Cape; • To align the development strategy of the Eastern Cape Provincial Government.

To date the DBSA has funded initiatives to empower the UFH internally, such as the centre for Local Government Development, the Change and Cultural Diversity Management project, the translation of agriculture manuals into the local language, the re-introduction of Nguni Cattle, amongst others. Total expenditure to date in capacity building stands at R1,8 million.

4.1 Project Visit: Nguni Cattle Project The UFH partnered with the local community, as part of a strategy to fight poverty and improving the quality of life. The Nguni cattle farming project is instrumental in this. The re-introduction of Nguni cattle is based on the concept of “passing on the gift”, which implies that the communities are borrowed a bull and heifers for a certain period and, once established, they pass them on to the next community. Studies at the UFH have indicated that the Nguni is an adaptable breed, capable of withstanding the most adverse circumstances. The concept is proving successful and it is excellent for environmental management. It is opening up local economic and skills development opportunities. The project is also unifying the communities to fight against the destruction of fences and stock theft. The total funding of the project is R1,2 million, with the DBSA contributing 80% of the cost.

4.2 Further Advantages • Approximately 90 families will benefit in skills development in production and maintenance of cattle; • Mercedes Benz indicated their willingness to use the hides for seat covers; • Farm management skills will be enhanced as a precursor for future farming activities; • The full exercise would serve as a knowledge base from which the university and community can draw.

4.3 Old Fort Hare Incubator/Nursery An investment of R800 000 was pumped into this project. The transfer of agriculture and horticulture skills becomes vital in this regard. A demand for paprika seedlings was identified, amounting to R1,6 million, and would create opportunities to the communities and new possible job creation and further training.

4.4 Siyakholwa Development Foundation: Keiskama Hoek The Keiskama Hoek area has an unemployment level of approximately 875, hence the need for the following projects which are currently in progress: • Rabbit-breeding project; • Seed nursery and flower growth, for example, cauliflower plants; • Peace garden concept gardening – Training/Development of skills • Propagation of essential oils, for example rose and geranium • Medicinal herbs – to make essential oils.

1. Partnerships are formed with:
   • DBSA - Department of Trade and Industry - Department of Education and Training - Department of Water Affairs and Forestry, etc.

4.6 Keiskama Hoek Women’s Essential Oils Project The project is aimed at promoting sound agricultural development, which will include cash-crop production. It will thus involve a paradigm shift in rural farmers towards high-yield, high-return products, and utilising natural methods for the production of indigenous crops that are in demand. Women will attend training sessions prior to the start of the programme with on-site assistance during land preparation and planting. The total commitment from DBSA to this project is R100 000. The initiatives are in consultation with community leaders via constant interaction.

4.7 Critique of Keiskama Hoek Women’s Essential Oils Project During intense interaction with members of the community it emerged that the physical size of the projects does not correlate with the amount of money that was pumped into the project. The total participation of women in these and related projects seem to suggest that no women empowerment is taking place because the presence of women was notably absent. Although some of the actual infrastructure was present, the value for money as committed by DBSA is not justified by the outputs that were identified as well as the outcomes. A clear monitoring mechanism is absent, hence the absence of tangible women’s participation in a so-called women’s empowerment project, which is non-existent. Clear audit processes should be put in place so as to assess the profile of persons receiving funding and to ensure that the possibility of fronting does not occur, robbing the poor of tangible opportunities to engage in meaningful poverty alleviation projects. Donor funding / funders eg: DBSA should further assess what multiple funders are financing the same projects. Funding seems to take place on a number of fronts with no tangible outcomes to the benefit of the community.

Wednesday, 13 October 2004

1. Queenstown Infrastructure Project The project entails the provision of water and sanitation, electrical reticulation, road and storm water drainage to 260 erven at Madeira Park, and the remainder of extension 29 in Queenstown. The area covers 2 505 hectares situated within the Queenstown municipal area. The project is aimed at providing affordable residential plots, with emphasis on addressing the needs of first-time home buyers (middle income group), thereby improving the quality of life of the community. The total cost of the project is R4 560 000.

5.1 Problem with Project The initial concept was to sell the newly built houses direct to the public. However, some of the estate agents managed to acquire the right to sell houses to loan recipients thus charging commission. This further delayed the conclusion of payments for plots from 3 months to 6 month. Further development challenges is a lack /limited capacity by municipalities to take up DBSA loans. Some are currently servicing existing DBSA /other institutional loans.

5.2 Recommendations • In terms of housing projects, a default policy should be put in place to ensure that the sheriff’s office does not go to great lengths to evict families. • An integrated form of development should be taking place, to prevent apartheid spatial patterns from emerging within the new urban renewal strategic plans and exclusive communities with pockets of opulence becoming established.

5.3 Stutterheim Youth Project The project initiated by a group of youths gave the visiting delegation much hope as a result of the achievements that are visible. The projects include: • Brick making – for which a tender was awarded • Food Garden of which a total of R16 000 was awarded by DBSA • Renting out flats that were build – clients include a doctor, spaza shop, HIV / Aids training venue, etc

This project is a shining example of what dedication and unselfish hard work can do, especially if a common vision exists within a poor community that is committed to enforcing change and striving to eradicate poverty. Currently a training centre is operational, which also houses a kind of library. Although the resources are somewhat limited, the idea does seem to be a winning concept. Training given in the resource centre is SETA recognised at a NQF – Level 4. HIV/Aids patients also receive training in food gardening to give them the means to grow basic food types that would give some sense of self-worth and inner value and to sustain their health.

The Amathola Municipality provided land at a reduced rate to encourage the cultivation of gardens by the youth group and community members. Good links have been forged with the municipality to engage in a clean-up project for which the youth centre was requested to manage and monitor the full project in the area. The honorable Mr Nelson Raju promised to donate a hundred books as much-needed reading materials to the library.

5.4 Challenges Application forms for further funding from the Health Department was promised to the Stutterheim Youth Project. Up until the time of the visit these promises had not beenmet with a good response. The Umsobomvu Fund also declined the Stutterheim Youth Project after an application was lodged for funding. The bulky application form is a matter of concern when applying for funding, a hurdle that poses the first challenge to small organisations.

Although various ways were explored to identify why funding was disapproved, the return response were that certain criteria were not met. Follow-up to correct the errors was done, but no response was received. If institutions that are set up for specific funding, such as youth entrepreneurs and other small businesses, do not address their mandate and the procedures become cumbersome, it totally loses it core function in promoting growth and fighting unemployment.

The chairperson intervened and requested that all applications be sent to his office in order to do some follow-up on this and related matters of concern.

5.5 Mdantsane Housing and Electrification Project A total of 60 contractors are involved in this project, which adds up to a value of R63 million. Approximately 6 320 transformers were installed, whereby most of the overhead conductors were replaced. Ninety percent employment is people within the immediate area, whereby 100% is HDIs in the community. The contract is a five-year project, which is currently in its second year. An agreement was undertaken to ensure that if members of the public fall into areas with electricity payments, they would then automatically be put on a prepaid system, which will allow them to buy electricity while at the same time pay off their areas. As a result of the prepaid initiative, electricity is paid for before members of the public actually consume it. This enhanced the revenue collection and reduced the theft rate of electricity. Illegal connections can easily be spotted in the area. Out of 30 000 households only 18 000 had electricity in the area. This was due to low maintenance whereby the equipment had to be upgraded in its entirety, in line with health standards and current regulations.

Every year the municipality re-looks its indigent policy to ensure that the recipients are truly the needy for which the policy seeks to deliver the free basic services. The project has a strong focus on internship training for technical and varsity students that are looking for further training and employment with a skills upgrade angle to their studies.

5.6 Evening Activity With Mayor of East London • When asked if the municipality owed the Auditor–General any audit fees, the answer was an emphatic no. • If the IDP were aligned and should be aligned with the Provincial Government Development Plan (PGDP) • If budget and IDP are aligned – they are still working on these and related issues • Powers and functions – some functions reside with provincial competencies. They were of the view that the municipal manager should try to work closely so as to integrate proper services and functions • Money owed to municipalities – by the Department of Public Works but the status at this stage is not clear since they were an implementation agent.

5.7 Response by Mayor S Mclean of Buffalo City to Questions Posed: • Buffalo City owes the Auditor-General money; • Public entity does owe the city money; • Departments owe the city money in terms of Corporate Governance. The office of the mayor does not want to cut the electricity; • The use of own revenue for the disaster fund was too small, damage was estimated at R90 million, funds received was 40% of what they had to pay; • Urban renewal – infrastructure had to be revamped and millions had to be spent; • The mayor stressed the point that councillors should become more involved to deal with the indigent policy to make it truly work to the people’s benefit; • Indigent – most people do not have any knowledge of the indigent policy.

Thursday, 14 October 2004

1. O R Tambo Municipality: Hegebe Project The Hegebe Traditional Authority is situated in Mqanduli, a small service town that is part of O R Tambo District Municipality and is, homogenously, a one-language geographic population area, with 60% unemployment. It is in the State Presidential Nodal Zone of the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Plan (ISRDP), qualifying it as a priority for economic development. Mqanduli climate is particularly well suited to growing maize. However, the crops currently produced are commercially insignificant even after several years of active crop promotion and training. In an effort to kick-start maize and vegetable farming, the soil has to be prepared with a grant to the Tribal Authority Fund. The project aims to help aspiring farmers develop business plans, apply for funding and learn how to farm commercially, through practical commercial and technical training. A grant amount of R500 000 has been offered to the Hegebe Traditional Authority by the DBSA to purchase ploughing equipment. 6.1 Discussion with Mr Nkosi Patekile Holomisa The chief at the Great Place, Mr Nkosi Patekile Holomisa, indicated his appreciation of the R500 thousand that the DBSA gave to purchase two tractors, plaques and seed planters. However his concern was that the farmers need around six water pumps to pump water to the plowed land and to ensure sustainable water provision. The need for DBSA to do a full assessment of the needs around this area is critical. Projects should be funded in their totality so that the real benefits are as a result of a full quota of resources instead of partial funding that creates other needs that might serve as stumbling block to the successes of the projects in their entirety. Members were of the opinion that more visits of this kind were needed to get the bigger picture of what the struggles of our rural farmers are and the needs in financial terms will be to address the challenges.

Closer co-operation should exist between the bank and other government institutions such as the LandBank, to view their role in the bigger scheme of things. The function of the Land Bank is not well understood in these areas and should be made clearer to the rural people if the full potential of the rural poor is to be explored. Mr Nkosi Patekile Holomisa indicated that they are not pushing for money although the money is needed but that agricultural equipment is provided; the two tractors are rented to farmers for R100 per day instead of the market price of R175 per hour. The hiring fees charged is then used to service the tractors.

The importance of the Agricultural Research Council also came under the spotlight, especially with the assistance of skills to ensure that the land is ploughed in the correct manner so as to minimise the effect of soil erosion. If poverty is to be tackled at its roots, more resources should be pumped into the rural communities as agriculture is the main source of income and the sustainer of life. The visiting delegation was made aware of other projects that were set up for rural women to generate income by producing good and services that could be sold to visitors/tourists in the area.

6.2 Recommendation by Chief In the national budget allocation there should be a bias towards the rural poor in the equitable formula as prescribed by the FFC and set out in the Division of Revenue. This approach would go a long way in addressing the backlogs that currently exist in the Eastern Cape area. As a result of high unemployment and little or no economic base, an intervention strategy should be devised.

6.3 Mayor D Mkhatshwa: King Sabata Dalindyebo Municipality The DBSA commitment in this regard is a infrastructure development of R7,5 million for upgrading of roads, electricity, water and sanitation and refuse removal. Technical Assistance (advice) on: Financial Management and Credit Control; Institutional Development and Leadership Support and Organisational Structure; Systems and Processes (customer service and management systems) and Information Technology.

6.4 Speech by Ms Vuyishwa: Wife to King of Thembu People She indicated that the King is extremely grateful for the contribution of DBSA in funding development in the area (Thembu Kingdom) and indicated that strong links can only be forged at this point with the Bank. They view the gathering as a launch of greater things in the future especially when legislation like Black Economic Empowerment speaks directly to the Thembu people. With all the charters that are currently drafted and those already in operation, they are practical about the idea that things will take time but that this could be viewed as a starting point.

6.5 The Ridge Tourism Accommodation Visit to “Hole in the Wall” at Coffee Bay along the Wild Coast This is an area with immense beauty and potential yet plagued by unemployment and abject poverty. The scenic beauty of the area provides little reward to the struggling poor but is an attractive magnet to those who clearly understand the value of mining and tourism with its economic multiplier effects.

Although much thought has been given to developing the area, persistent obstacles, such as land tenure, bribery of chiefs by the rich,for land to build lavish holiday home low development, no job creation efforts and many other factors still seem to put a dampner on the huge potential of the area. The area also lacks a common vision, no detailed strategic framework for development, no detailed local spatial planning framework, under- capacitated levels of municipalities, etc. Other pressures include: poor management capacity to administer sustained resources used, unregulated vehicle access to the beaches, informal and unregulated sand mining and poor municipal service (e.g. waste management). 6.6 Poverty and Unemployment Challenges • Rural communities’ subsistence lifestyle and dependency on natural resources is problematic • Benefit sharing is weak • Weak capacity in local community to negotiate equitable partnership agreements • Unsustainable development to address immediate need for employment.

As a result of poverty, people are bribed hence illegal building is taking place. This creates a problem where community persons are turned against government, especially when laws are enforced pertaining to property rights and land ownership. Although an Eligible Cottage Task Team has been set up to counter the problem of people acquiring land by means of bribes - dockets have been opened - the problem now lies with the Department of Justice to speed up the prosecution procedures. Hence the need for government to fasttrack these and related issues.

6.7 Response by Community Members and Further Comments The members of the community that met up with the visiting delegation expressed high praise due to the parliamentarians visiting the area and indicated that this is a first and hopefully not the last visit. They further re-iterated the poverty and unemployment problem that is extremely close to their heart.

The committee noted that the sensitivity of the area cannot be overestimated. If proper planning did not precede development, the consequences could be devastating. Although the development nodal study does not give clear indications as to where development along this coastal stretch should take place, wrong choices in development could be detrimental to the scenic beauty of the area and could become a dead loss to society.

Friday 15 October 2004

1. Alfred Nzo Municipality: Interaction with Mayor X Jakaju The committee visited the Alfred Nzo municipal building that is now in its second phase of development. The building will host a bank with an ATM, which is non-existent in the area. This will be a welcome relief to those pensioners who have to travel long distances for their pension payments. The building is also very user friendly, especially taking due regard of disabled persons. The involvement of DBSA in this Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Project could be taken back as far as 2001. The need for these and related partnerships is as a result of poverty, large unemployment, water and sanitation shortages and infrastructure backlogs as well as telecommunication and electrification capacity constraints.

The mayor indicated that they are currently developing plans around an agrarian economy to improve agriculture. These plans include: • Cultural tourism – eco-tourism • Partnership with DTI • Umzimkhulu Gateway • Business plans around the R56 road to encourage a hospitality programme • Maluti Hiking Trail • Beef production and livestock • Fishing cluster • By 2009 all communities should be supplied with sanitation and SMME promotion

7.1 General Discussions: • The municipal manager indicated that no audit fees are outstanding to the Auditor General and that the departments do not owe the municipality any money. However businesses in the area owe them money. The dilemma is that many of these businesses left long time ago. • DBSA has provided valuable information to the municipality and officials and this has capacitated them in a big way. • A current study is underway, in consultation with DBSA, to look at better ways of water provision and retaining water during rainfall periods. • One library was just completed in the Usumkhulu area and would go a long way in acting as an information centre and multipurpose centre.

7.2 Challenges Identified Applications for ID booklets, especially for pensioners, still pose a problem. Discussions with the Department of Home Affairs to open an office in the area have been ongoing. The Department of Housing has been pulled in to ensure the provision of houses, especially in the remote rural areas. Indigent policy is operational. However, the issue of statistics seems to be a constant divisive factor in the implementation of this very important policy which can be to the benefit of poor households.

The transfer of assets from provincial administration to municipal administration does not come with operational budgets and poses a problem since most of this capital infrastructure is extremely old and outdated and pose a problem in terms of maintenance expenses.

7.3 Further Recommendations and Challenges • Many of the municipalities visited have huge backlogs that need attention, not only physically but in capacity, • Bucket system in municipalities persist and are a matter of concern, • Inefficiencies in rail systems poses problems to export, especially with big projects like Coega, • Outstanding Fees to the Auditor-General and SARS, • Physical monitoring of projects are notably absent eg: Keiskammahoek Women’s Empowerment Project, • Fronting in some instances regarding empowerment projects, • Proper audits should be in place as to monitor who are the actual beneficiaries, • Funding stream, as many projects receive multiple funding stream with only one recipient organisation, • Recreation facilities should be considered when planning and developing areas where there are a high density of people, • Good projects should be encouraged and assisted to proceed further eg; Stutterheim Youth Project, • Indigent policies should be more visible to those households that need it most, people should be educated around making use of the indigent policy, • Councillors should become more active when it comes to the indigent policy, • It is questionable if the IDPs are aligned to the Provincial Government Development Plans (PGDP), and if the one was drafted after the other or vise versa, • Departments owing municipalities are a notable concern, • By its very nature a project is a holistic process. A missing link could stifle the outputs and outcomes, hence the need for more comprehensive funding by DBSA, • Functions of other Government institutions e.g. Land Bank, HSRC, Agriculture Research Council and others should be explored to assist rural farmers, • Dealing with the Division of Revenue, a rural bias should be present in the policy document and this should be further discussed with the Treasury and Finance and Fiscal Commission, • Unresolved Land Tenure issues poses serious problems to rural communities, • Bribery to gain access to valuable land along the Wild Coast is a matter of grave concern, • Department of Justice should be brought into the scheme of things when dealing with these and related issues, especially when cases are pending and dockets are opened in this regard, • Development and the environment is constantly at odds when it comes to creating a viable industry,e.g. Wild Coast area, • A lack of a common vision in the Wild Coast area is a cause for concern, • Partnership with traditional leaders in the area is crucial, they should in no way be undermined, • Proper environmental impact studies should be undertaken when embarking on further development especially when DBSA funds the projects, • Pension payments in municipal areas, especially when no facilities are provided e.g. toilets, shaded areas, water provision is an urgent matter for municipalities, • Closer links with Department of Home Affairs to assist pensioners with identity documents is another issue of concern, • Procurement should be biased towards women. DBSA should make it a point to ensure that this practice is encouraged when funding projects, • The take-over of fixed assets e.g. water purification plant by municipalities from provincial authorities should be transferred with a maintenance budget to prevent strain on municipal budgets.

Further Recommendations to DBSA The profile of the DBSA should become more prominent. The bank is still perceived by some as a typical bank and not as a development bank. Although their role is constantly under refinement, their contribution especially with respect to municipalities cannot be overestimated. A role that we would like to see is where public goods and services are provided in much more accelerated forms of infrastructure and capacity building which the private sector are reluctant to initiate, but to cushion the risk of development and to form smarter partnership that would be to the benefit of society and our economy. The committee is aware of the fact that funding is given in the sincere name of capacity building and should reflect outcomes to that effect. If unsustainable partnerships are entered into, this will give rise to a free-rider problem. A situation where some municipalities take up loans without having a large-enough base to collect money to service these loans, hence defaulting on their debt and expecting government to bail them out. The mere fact that the bank has a workout unit suggest that some municipalities from time to time default on their debt and leaves one to question the meaning of smart partnership and if this is not just another form of fruitless and wasteful expenditure on the side of the bank.

The bank should not be under pressure to disperse money for the sake of maintaining a good funding record or impressive annual report to Parliament, but that prudent spending be recognised by outputs and outcomes that are adding value to the tangible social welfare needs of the poor specifically.

7.4 Conclusion The Select Committee on Finance was made aware of the challenges that are facing our new democracy, challenges that beg for not only verbal commitment but for constructive participation. To this challenge the Development Bank of South Africa has stepped up to the task and attempted to exercise its mandate in an environment where poverty and unemployment still poses a threat to our fragile democracy. In no uncertain terms did the bank hesitate to be an “investor, advisor and partner of choice” in the rural areas of the Eastern Cape, but has shown unselfish commitment.

The realities of the “people’s contract” as alluded to by the president of our country becomes even more binding in rural areas of which the Eastern Cape is a prime example. It is a statement of hope and expectation to the poor, a source of energy to face the challenges that poverty poses and to show courage in the midst of adverse conditions. Hence the need for the NCOP to live up to its mandate and to truly represent the provincial and local spheres of government at a national level by legislating laws that will ensure upliftment and empowerment to the poor. To exercise oversight that would ensure that legislated policies becomes a practical tool in the hands of those that are disenfranchised and to bridge the gap between the first and second economy that are extremely evident in the rural areas of our country.

The committee further would want to take this opportunity to note the unwavering commitment of our colleague and friend Mr. Nelson Raju (IFP) for his contribution to this report. His input at times were quite militant and frank yet constructive, synonymous with the passion that he portrays around issues which relate to sports facilities (stadiums) and education resources (libraries) in the municipal and local districts that were visited. The committee is confident that his contribution to our society will linger long after the memories has faded.

The hospitality and warmth with which the members were received at their various destinations underlined the fact that the tourism potential of this nation is yet to be discovered. A special word of thanks to the Development Bank of South Africa officials for their contribution in making this oversight visit the success it deserved to be, not for the luxury of viewing the province but to tap into the potential for capacity building and partnerships to be forged in the interest of our great nation. We thank you.

1. Report of the Select Committee on Finance on Provincial Budgets and Expenditure Review 2001/02 – 2007/08 Hearings

                     18 – 21 October 2005
   

Introduction

The Select Committee on Finance engaged in public hearings during the week of 18 – 21 October 2005 on the Provincial Budget and Expenditure Review 2001/02 – 2007/08. The committee engaged the Members of the Executive Committee (MEC) of the various departments in the provinces and discussed the content of their relevant chapters. The review document captures information that goes beyond simply providing a comprehensive set of data on provincial budgets and expenditure, to providing analyses of trends in service delivery. It lays a basis for benchmarking provinces on service delivery performance in key sectors such as school education, health, social development and housing, among others, and also give a snapshot of the expenditure trend for the future budget allocation and expenditure.

The report will consist of a Part A (Social Development), B (Education and Agriculture), C (Roads and Transport) and D (Social Development and Housing). Each department will be dealt with on a specific day of the week. The hearings are preceded by a briefing by the National Departments, after which the MECs are allowed to make their respective submissions and thereafter an intense discussion will take place.

                 PART A: SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT HEARING

Tuesday, 18 October 2005

1. Presentation by National Treasury on Social Development The National Treasury outlined the social development spending, social assistance spending and beneficiary trends, the social grants expenditure by type of grant and province, the performance in previous years within the social development sector, the provincial social welfare and development services expenditure, and the provincial social development expenditure budgets for 2001-2008. They also highlighted key issues around the role of the nine provinces in managing public funds within the new environment of the increase in the beneficiary numbers and public spending.

2. Presentation by National Department of Social Development The Chief Financial Officer gave an overview of provincial expenditure, social development services and the social assistance programme, which encompassed the old age, disability, foster care, and child support grants. He covered the measures utilised to sustain social grants expenditure, the pressures on future provincial expenditure and highlighted future policy initiatives in addition to conditional grants expenditure for the Medium Term Expenditure Framework (MTEF) allocations for 2001/2-2007/8 that included HIV & AIDS and the Integrated Social Development Grant (ISDG), which was previously known as the Food Emergency Relief Grant.

3. Presentation by Eastern Cape Department of Social Development Discussions centred around the strategic responsibilities of Social Development and gave an overview of 2001/2-07/08 and the budget allocations for the same period. Also discussed were the 2005/6 first quarter expenditure trends only and the challenges the Eastern Cape face.

Committee Discussion The questions dealt with the following issues: confirmation of the figures which were agreed too, under expenditure on the conditional grants, the omission of the Provincial Care Dependency Grant Expenditure 2001/2, the R94 million and the 5 957 beneficiaries and the Social Services in 2002/3, only R480 million in expenditure was listed, while in 2003/4 it was R399 million. What are the reasons for the decline?

The MEC responded that the information was for 2005/6 ended on June 30 only, and therefore did not cover September. She continued that in terms of the projected under-spending for the current financial year, the monitoring report for each month went to Treasury, and that at the end of the financial year, the situation was going to change. She chose as an example the Integrated Social Development Grant and said that the process towards the rolling out of the programme came late from the National Department, which caused them to start the process late. She stated that in terms of the foster care grant, the respective departments were now working together, and that they were looking at changing the situation, because it was difficult for children to get into the programme, and that reflected an under-spending because of the bad financial flow. She answered that in terms of the transfers to NGOs, the department was dealing with the challenge.

The committee requested the Eastern Cape delegation to inspect their records and submit answers in writing within two days. The Chairperson stated that it would be useful for the Eastern Cape Department of Social Development to interact with their Treasury, so that the Committee could have a long-range view of where they started from to the way forward and to look at the trends from 2001-2005 to see the broader trends as they appeared in the report beyond this financial year.

The committee is of the opinion that it would be useful to start from 2001, to see the sustainability within those NGOs and to view some of the NGOs that had been doing good work within some communities and also providing the committee with a list of current NGOs are still in existence.

The MEC agreed with the committee that the distribution of social workers was skewed and added that they still had a shortage of social workers. She added that they had indicated a shift from social welfare to social development, and thus experienced a growth of responsibilities contrasted against the availability of required skills, as people were needed to manage offices at those lower levels in different areas. She stated that the focus was on development and the strengthening of welfare services, and that they employed 100 more social workers at a very low level.

1. Western Cape Presentation Western Cape Social Services Department and Poverty Alleviation delivered an overview of their expenditure and said that the budget for the current financial year was driven and influenced by priorities ranging from transformation, community regeneration, protecting the most vulnerable, early childhood development and the fight against drug and substance abuse to strengthening and intensifying social capital and building families.

The department presented on the growth between 2001/02 and 2004/05, the unspent funds for 2004/05, the factors that influenced growth in the aforementioned periods and the distribution of the budget. They indicated that the average growth in beneficiary numbers of grants per financial year is currently growing. A progress report on the implementation of the SA Social Security Agency (SASSA) in the Western Cape and its challenges were mentioned. The cost pressures, the number of social workers, development and support services, which included HIV/AIDS, Poverty Reduction, Food Relief and an update on personnel spending, and numbers were also alluded to.

Committee Discussion The Director of Social Security indicated that the Legal Resources Centre had brought a court action against the National Department as well as all nine provinces and indicated that they could not proceed with the cancellation of grants because the first letter of award that went out to the beneficiary to inform them about the grant did not contain all the correct information. It did not state that the beneficiary had the right to appeal within 90 days, so those grants that they cancelled for a specific period had to be put back onto the system and new letters had to be issued to those beneficiaries which stated that they had the right to appeal. He added that they had to keep those cases on the system for that three-month period or until the appeal process had been completed for those beneficiaries who appealed. He continued that they could not cancel any cases until they had completed the process and that led to the increases in beneficiaries. It would only be when they had completed the Mashishi court cases that they would be able to state that the processes were clean.

In terms of the assessment tools, the National Department had contracted the Human Sciences Research Council (HSRC) to develop an assessment tool and that they had identified with the National Department four provinces where the assessment tool would be piloted. They would meet in November in the Western Cape to pilot it in the George region, but it had not been implemented throughout the province, so different provinces were operating with different assessment tools. He admitted they were still vulnerable to litigation in terms of the different assessment tools that were in use in the provinces, and that they were working with the National Department to fasttrack the pilot so that they could reach uniformity in the provinces as soon as possible.

Regarding an increased funding to NGOs for salary increases of social workers, traditionally it was the norm to fund social workers in the private sector a maximum of 75% of the status quo average and due to the Social Security Budget they were unable to do so as State salary scales had increased. The effect was that as of the previous year they were funding between 55-63% of the State salary scale and as part of the National Strategy for social workers they decided to transfer that benefit to the social workers working in the NGO sector. That had led to the increase in transfer payments in the NGO sector.

The personnel numbers for Social Security that decreased was due to a moratorium and they could not appoint any new personnel in the provinces. They then went through a period where they did an assessment in the province, and saw that the shortage of personnel had a negative effect on the quality of the work they rendered. Then they decided to appoint more people to ensure that their quality control was in place.

The major jump in personnel numbers between 2003/04 and 2004/05 was due to the appointment of contract workers to assist with the process of grants, specifically in terms of quality and to ensure shorter waiting periods. Further they had to accommodate the support side to deal with files, the register, etc. as they had experienced an increase of grant applications.

1. Presentation by Free State Department of Social Development The Free State MEC for Social Development delivered a presentation and said that there was a need for more social workers in the province. They also looked at making services accessible to poor people, and that they had come up with the idea for mobile offices that would provide services to rural communities. The MEC said that some NGOs that provided additional services duplicated what the Provincial Department was already providing, and that they were looking at a structure that would complement each other. In this, they would focus specifically on rolling services out to rural areas, as well as making the NGOs accountable for their work to the Province. They would also do better monitoring that would enable them to better account for the funds that went to the NGO and a better system to monitor HIV centres as well as better communication processes to deal with this. The reason for underexpenditure in the social disability grants was because of an anti-corruption drive last year and early in the current year.

The Free State HOD for Social Development said that the drop in personnel was as a result of resignations due to low salaries and working conditions. The growth in beneficiaries was because of the social model that changed the criteria which now included social background and unemployment, and that more people could now get the disability grant due to improved assessments.

The Chairperson said that he would allow them to go back home to investigate this matter, as they were obviously not in control.

The committee stated that one of the issues they had not looked at yet was migration from people outside the system. The Free State had the highest numbers, with the second highest being Limpopo. The Free State MEC for Social Development stated that the assessment panels that they used to assess the beneficiaries were the main reasons. Treasury agreed.

Free State bordered Lesotho, and issues of migration came out strongly in the discussion. He said that people from Lesotho, who migrated to the Free State and who were in dire need of social assistance but could not receive any due to a lack of documentation was an issue to be looked at.

1. Presentation by the Northern Cape Department of Social Development The MEC delivered a presentation that looked over the previous three years, expenditure and outcomes, and the challenges over the next three years. He said that there was a rise in beneficiaries, which resulted in the growth in expenditure, looking at the challenges of social assistance grants and that of the Social Welfare Services. A high turnover of social workers due to poor salary scales was experienced. However a social worker retention plan is in place. He gave a summary of the provincial payments from 2002/03- 2004/05 and the achievement within the same time frame. He also presented actual and projected expenditure, and policy matters for 2005/06.

The committee queried the large consistent annual growth in old age persons as a trend across all provinces in 2001/02-2005/06 in light of the HIV/AIDS pandemic, and asked the MEC about this trend in the Northern Cape.

The MEC indicated that they had not really done an analysis on that issue, but that growing old was a natural process and that one had to look at the statistics as to how many people were likely to get old on a yearly basis as a trend. He added that he did not note an unusual trend in view of earlier years and that it seemed to be consistent with natural attrition. On the issue of the HIV/AIDS pandemic, MEC added that the pandemic had its major impact on the16-45 year old age group; those above fifty had not been as badly affected.

The committee recommended that an analysis had to be done as the rise in the numbers of old persons was dramatic and that they had to check whether they had the correct numbers. The migration was sighted as a reason why people from the Northern Cape would live and work in the Western Cape and Gauteng during their productive years, but would return during their elder years to the Northern Cape and would draw their pensions there.

A KwaZulu-Natal delegate said that one of the things that they picked up in her province was the cross-border situation when people were coming into the country from places like Mozambique, but when they were analysing the Health Budget they realized that it cost Kwazulu-Natal R180 million per year just to service the people who came over to access clinics. She said that it taxed the clinics, the schools, a whole range of services and that they were paying a lot of money to support people from other countries.

The Northern Cape confirmed the figures shown as a true reflection of the report as published by National Treasury. Statistics showed that the average age in the Northern Cape had risen from 54 to 58, which implied that there had been an improvement in the quality of life of people in the province and that that could be the indicator for the rise in the numbers of older people.

1. Presentation by the Limpopo Department of Social Development Limpopo indicated growth above the average and that they had commissioned a study to look into the reason for these trends which indicated that there was a serious inflow of people from Botswana, Mozambique and Zimbabwe and people just like herself from Swaziland.

The committee questioned the reliability of numbers, as they surely must be able to verify beneficiaries? The Limpopo Social Development budget, as an equitable share of the Provincial Budget, since 2001/02 had risen from 18% to 25% in 2004/05 and that they were now more able to take care of poor people because of that.

1. Presentation by the Mpumalanga Department of Social Development The HOD of Social Development in Mpumalanga confirmed the figures shown in the report as a true reflection of their report. The Chairperson said that they had no report on their personnel numbers, and yet they had spent R49 million in 2001/02, then R59 million and then R64 million. He added that in 2004/05 they had about 510 personnel and asked them to explain that phenomenon. Furthermore in 2001, 2003/04 there was no personnel indicated and then this jumped to 166 and 180 and asked for an explanation. He also queried their growth of 29,4%.

The Mpumalanga response was that it was clear that there was an omission in terms of the submission of the statistics by his predecessors, and that from 2004/05 they submitted the figures. As far as growth was concerned, they have problems with cross border flow from Mozambique and Swaziland as well as the setting up of the disability panels.

1. Presentation by the KwaZulu-Natal Department of Social Development The Kwazulu-Natal Social Development presented some problems on the social assistance front, and they were pinning their hopes on the establishment of the SA Social Security Agency (SASSA), which would give them an opportunity to have a specialised institution to deal with matters of administration and management of the social grant system. They added that the establishment of the Agency would bring about uniform measures to eliminate some of the inconsistencies with regard to provinces in this particular function. They indicated that the ghosts in the system were real human beings - public servants - and that from the studies that were done, it was quite a sizable number of public servants who were involved in these fraudulent activities. They are looking into a strategy to ensure the progressive realisation of social-economic rights to ensure that they balanced those with available resources.

The department indicated that there was a great possibility for savings rather than underspending, because those efficiency gains that were seen were as a result of efforts and measures that they were putting in place to rid the social security system of fraud and corruption.

The committee noted that National Departments should be firmer and that the provinces should not be given so much discretion in the context of national norms and standards. Norms and standards should be equal across all provinces so that one province would not be better than another to the extent that they would then experience migration across borders. Provinces were always arguing that conditions for conditional grants were very strict. The equitable share was unconditional. Some people wanted to review conditional grants but the committee would urge National Departments not to relent on this. Finally, the Chairperson added that the National Social Development Department was the only department that complied with the Division of Revenue Act in terms of supplying quarterly reports on the conditional grant.

                    PART B: HEARINGS ON EDUCATION

Wednesday, 19 October 2005

1. National Education Department Briefing The department outlined trends in the proportion of national income that flowed towards public education; comparisons of spending with similar countries; the decline in the provincial share of expenditure and the expected further decline; the need to look at linking social grants to education; low spending on adult education; special-needs learners; expenditure on capital and non-personnel items; enrolment ratios; slow turnaround time and logistical issues in getting data verified and audited; the Senior Certificate matriculation results; teacher incentives and stabilising teacher numbers.

Also focusing on provincial budgetary pressures; service delivery outputs and outcomes; slow real growth and under-expenditure in provinces. All provinces had decreased spending for 2001-2007

1. Eastern Cape Department of Education The MEC highlighted the following issues: the monitoring of learner innumeracy and literacy, access in terms of no-fee schools; policy shifts to bring Grades 8 and 9 together; grant improvements; problems with finding and funding personnel; the pressure to service debt; the number of schools; lack of money for desks, books and teachers; and the need to train principals to run schools effectively.

Committee Discussion The Eastern Cape had overspent R900 million on personnel expenses and the whole province had to be put under Section 100 of the Constitution (national supervision of a provincial administration). In 2004, the same thing had happened when the province ran R600 million into deficit. They had to take money from all departments to service that debt, and there was still pressure from their social partners to hire more educators. The vacancy rate in the administration was around 60%. When they had started to use their finances properly, half to service the budget deficit had cut the non-personnel budget.

R27 million of funding was received from the European Union, Japan and others. The 2006 figures indicated that they needed 2 000 classrooms and that they have built 50% of those already. The maintenance allocations approximated to R54 million.

School nutrition: in the current financial year indicated, the department could not feed learners five days a week because of inefficiencies in the system and budgetary constraints. Migration was another challenge for the province.

The Eastern Cape indicated that some of their educators had served ten years but officially remained temporary staff. They had issued a bulletin in the previous week, and by January the posts would be filled. School administration performance would be monitored. In some schools they had disciplined principals, and they had to centralise this kind of programme. In poor areas like Lusikisiki, there was a very poor teaching and learning culture. An increasing problem was the number of staff and pupils dying from AIDS.

The MEC said that communities were not involved in the nutrition programme and that service providers came from the Western Cape and Gauteng.

1. Free State Department of Education Briefing The Free State Education Department presented on the learner numbers; the closure of farm schools because of low learner numbers; the learner support programme, the orphan food parcels programme; the schools nutrition programme; the hostel programme; school transport allocation; renovation of schools; the programme to install computer centres in all secondary schools by 2010, Further Education Training (FET) Colleges, the literacy rate, and the provincial budget and expenditure trends.

Committee Discussion The provincial department stated that higher growth was due to an improvement in the accuracy of information. Educator training was now taking place after school hours. The rollover was due to funds given by the European Union countries recently and which they had been unable to spend. With regard to spending on the HIV/AIDS programme for staff, most of those programmes would be completed during the December holidays and had therefore been shown as unspent. Capital expenditure funding had actually been increased, so the department had to start quickly on renovations. The Public Works Department in the Free State only dealt with building new schools and not the maintenance thereof.

1. Northwest Department of Education briefing The MEC presented on provincial access to education, the matriculation pass rates, building of schools, the adult literacy rate, enrolment in independent schools, provincial expenditure trends and inputs, percentage growth, personnel costs, and expenditure by economic classification.

Committee Discussion The Head of Department indicated that credible data remained a challenge, including that for independent schools. They had recently appointed people at a regional level to deal with this challenge.

1. KwaZulu-Natal Department of Education Briefing The presentation outlined the trends in the learner: educator ratio, the reduction in the number of schools, migration, full-time equivalence, numbers of full-time learners in FET colleges, the Nutrition Programme, expenditure trends, and the number of black learners doing science and maths.

Committee Discussion The Head of Department indicated that figures reflect that 1 000 extra schools had Section 21 (non-profit organisation) status. Insufficient groundwork had been done in those schools located in the Zululand region. The Chairperson asked them to go back and verify those numbers.

1. Northern Cape Department of Education Submission The MEC and the Director General for the Northern Cape were not present and the Committee accepted their written submission only.

2. Director-General’s Response National Director-General explained that with the Nutrition Programme, the Eastern Cape had 50% of their learners on the programme. That province had particular pressures, as other provinces had 20% of learners on the programme. Information on teacher numbers were improving. As for principals inflating numbers, the National Department accepted that in many ways it was a design flaw in the system, and that they were developing a new information system where learners would be identified by Individual Learner Numbers, or by their ID numbers, so that the National Department could track learners when they migrate, as well as to check their progress throughout their schooling life.

The Chairperson said that hygiene with the Nutrition Programme was important, as he knew of one school in Mpumalanga where the food was kept in a room with no refrigerator, and in another where the food was prepared in a shack.

1. Mpumalanga Department of Agriculture Briefing The Mpumalanga MEC outlined the trends in administration costs, resource management, infrastructure, irrigation programmes, the Comprehensive Farmer Support Programme, food gardens, pack houses for exporting produce from food gardens, irrigation systems for small-scale farming, capacity, prevention of foot and mouth disease, revamping of laboratories, the increase baseline of agricultural structure, the Department focus on technology, structural agricultural training, and micro-finance for small- scale farmers.

Committee Discussion The Chairperson referred to the National Treasury Report on Land Distribution and Reform outputs that showed 311 projects with 22 347 recipients, 2 197 of them female, and requested an answer as to why that number was so low because women were in the majority in rural provinces. In the Eastern Cape there with 58 000 recipients, with female recipients at 7

1. The Free State had 8 000 beneficiaries, with 1 000 females. He further asked about female-headed households. In response the department said that they did not currently have the statistics for beneficiaries of land reform.

Mpumalanga indicated that it had become clear that in spending more on other areas like farmer support, which was close to 43%, this ‘pushed up the totals’. The initial high expenditure in veterinary service had outstripped capacity and had then been adjusted. They were satisfied with the current levels.

The province had spent R16 million out of R18 million in December 2004. They had a serious problem because CASP then accounted for R700 000 out of R18 million. They had to put in a programme between January and February. The committee said that consistent underspending of conditional grants would be under constant review.

1. North West Department of Agriculture Briefing The North West Province outlined trends in budget and expenditure, service delivery, personnel expenditure, animal disease prevention, critical small and subsistence farming, tourism, research institutes, environmental impact, waste management, lack of reliable statistics, number and types of livestock around, uniform strategy, farming equipment, CASP, training and the incapacity to spend budgets.

With regards to the recent veldt fires, they had provided emergency livestock fodder. They have also looked at damage to houses, fences, and farm workers, buildings, and at long-term management of these disasters. One of their challenges was the capacity of local municipalities in emergency services. The extension officers seem to be an ongoing challenge.

1. Eastern Cape Agriculture Briefing The Eastern Cape officials outlined trends in budgets and expenditure, soil conservation strategies, migration, underspending, capacity, infrastructure development, CASP, irrigation, veterinary services, and animal diseases.

Committee Discussion The department in the province emphasised that the numbers around the Nguni cattle could not be verified and therefore did not know whether the project was sustainable. There also appeared to be massive problems with fruit production and the challenge of for example, 500 hectares of land to one tractor. In other communities, chicken litter was sold as fertiliser and then billed to the Department. Management of the extension officers in that area left much to be desired. They added that conventional ploughing was very expensive. Some officials had gone to Brazil to observe ‘zero tillage’, but realised that it needed special machinery, and would not work with the type of rainfall of the Eastern Cape.

Sustainable resource management being hamstrung by the fiscal arrangements in the Eastern Cape caused fluctuations in totals. They had not been able to run all the programmes as budgets had to be reduced. There were problems in the CASP programme, but tractors had been ordered and were due to be delivered to villagers. In response to the Nguni question, the department indicated that the University of Fort Hare had jointly run the Nguni programme.

Roads had been influenced by the cluster system, and there was no integration of efforts. The department would launch an initiative to compile a complete list of the small farmers. He admitted that supernumeraries were still on the system. Last year they had 3 000, and currently they have slightly less than 900. The MEC then said that he had no ready information on the percentage growth. The small number of extension officers and lack of funds is a concern to the department. On zero tilling, they were investigating soil erosion and a pilot project is underway. Tea production had become a viable business.

The Department had applied for a rollover of the R38 million. About R17 million had been spent and R19 million was planned for projects. The agricultural research was necessary for the province and was reaping benefits already.

1. Gauteng Department of Agriculture Briefing Gauteng outlined trends in budgets and expenditure, high-potential agricultural land, budget and expenditure, agriculture strategy, lack of laboratories, tunnel farming, hydroponics, deploying staff in other provinces in disease control initiatives, veterinary services, strategic objectives, community food gardens, conditional grants, access to land, and environmental projects.

2. Free State Department of Agriculture Briefing The department officials outlined trends in budgets and expenditure, land and agrarian reform, development of communal land and beneficiaries, food security, the community donor-funded support programme, sustainable resource management, soil conservation, farmer support and development, disaster management, veterinary services, the technology research and development services programme, the structured agricultural training programme, and low spending on the CASP project.

Free State produced 70% of South Africa’s grain. As there was currently overproduction of grain in the world, they had looked into producing bio diesel with SASOL. This was the first such project for the Department.

               PART C: HEARINGS ON ROADS AND TRANSPORT

Thursday, 20 October 2005

1. National Department: Roads National department for roads indicated some challenges, which included: Accounting for roads at municipal level and all unclassified roads (not assigned in terms of ownership) especially when these unclassified roads are at the poor community level. Assets and information management systems should be prioritised. Traffic Management and Safety initiatives are the “Arrive Alive” campaign. E-Natus is a system that would ensure up-to-date information and improve access to information and up-to-date data, which is critical to eradicate fraud and corruption. It is expected to start in 2006 (April). Road Traffic Management Cooperation is encouraged to promote efficient and inform strategy for road traffic management across the spheres. National crime prevention strategy will rely on technology for registering and licensing motor vehicles and the bureau to combat crime. In safety and security 88% of spending are accounted for in this department for all nine provinces.

Another challenge is the overloading control of heavy-duty vehicles. Damage in this area amounts to R600 million. Initiatives in this regard are traffic control centres - approximately 90 exist and most are upgraded. The focus is also on upgrading driver testing, weighbridges and all other centres. An initiative to step up testing of vehicle roadworthiness. Administering public transport subsidy system, the Treasury indicated that the policy challenge is to bring some equity, efficiency and better targeting in the system since Gauteng, KZN and Western Cape are the biggest spenders in this regard, mainly in the metros.

The Integrated Planning Transport Plans aim to improve the process of planning, a major effort which municipalities embarked upon. The idea of the department is also to increase non-motorised transport management and to ensure the effective coordination of different modes of transport. Hence there is a great focus on roads and transport in view of 2010, which poses a major opportunity for investment going forward in this sector. The number of unclassified roads in order to ensure integration and to classify the roads according to function and to assign ownership is a ongoing process. This is to ensure standardisation and to better plan for needs and coordinate across the spheres. Formalising Taxi Industry Structures are in place and R7,7 billion has been earmarked for taxi recapitalisation over the next seven years. The current year’s budget amounts to R250 million for scrapping old vehicles and the process is in place for establishing scrapping agencies. The idea is to introduce safety standards in the taxi industry and to move from taxi permits to operating permits to improve safety.

Although the sector has grown in spending, the challenges in terms of the needs are as follows: Performance indicators, information management systems, constraints in terms of skills throughout the whole sector, backlogs in maintenance and access roads. But there is the potential for more jobs as more funds are channelled to this sector as well as the 2010 World Cup. The corruption in vehicle licenses and registration in drivers licenses are a challenge, which the NATIS system also seeks to address.

Responses to Committee’s Concerns Motor vehicle licence fees differ substantially - Western Cape is the highest. Equalisation of license fees in provinces. Road Accidents. Value for money in spending. Bus Subsidies. Weighbridges – Norms and Standards and distribution Orphan roads in rural areas – ownership problems

As soon as any road is incorporated into the national road network, routine road maintenance procedures are put in place. This means the road is being patched after taking strain to make the road as save as possible, which is an ongoing exercise. Classification of roads in the past was done in a functional manner and never took into consideration the social requirements of roads – this is the main reason why the department is looking at the classification of roads to address the issue of orphan roads. Municipal boundaries exist and roads should be claimed and cannot be regarded as unclaimed roads.

Responsibility of weighbridges resides with the province. The department feels that spending money on weighbridges is a much better investment than not spending money at all. However, they are working closely with provinces to assist in non-functional weighbridges being re-instated to its functional order. The department may construct these weighbridges but the manpower to administer is heavily reliant on the province to provide officers to man these centres. This is a great challenge. Hence putting in place the necessary facilities to ensure a quality road and the maintenance thereof is not the challenge, but to ensure law enforcement is the bigger challenge. Arrive Alive is not only the responsibility of the department but also of the citizens of our country, this is a culture that has to be inculcated. The bus subsidy challenges is of concern due to unequal allocations between provinces and it shows up to have an urban bias in allocation.

Final Remarks by Chairperson in Summary Usefulness of data National and provincial confirmation of the data in the book The next step is value for money to support and complement the data.

1. Education Department: They have 2003 enrolment figures and not 2005, this is of concern to the committee. Eastern Cape will be feeding children in their school nutrition programme for three days only. What then becomes the function of the business plan and on what basis do you plan - on what stats do you use to access your own funding. What, then, is the basis of the plan if the numbers are much higher and the budgeting is therefore underbudgeted. At the same time, the issue of migration arises. Tthe numbers should decline, leading to saving. This is not evident in their information, amidst the belt-tightening exercise. Hygiene for school nutrition is a big issue, storage facilities as well as eating facilities and other things.

2. Social Development: They managed to remove some ghosts workers from the system and secured a saving. Indications are that there is a HIV/Aids pandemic which targets the younge, but annually old-age applicants are growing. How do you align this fact with one mortality rate? Provincial Discretion Trade-offs between provinces in their endeavour to deliver services this is a serious matter of concern.

                 PART D: SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT HEARING
   

Friday, 21October 2005

1. KwaZulu-Natal: MEC for Roads and Transport in the Province Monitoring, provincial plans in line with IDPs, Provincial Roads Expenditure for 2002/03 declined as opposed to the previous financial year (why?), revenue collection from motor vehicle licences (projected decline in 2004/05 –Why?), value for money in terms of expenditure, contribution of tollgates to the maintenance of roads.

Response to Committee’s Questions Out of a total of 25 000 people employed in this sector, 24 000 are women. The idea now is to allow these women to establish cooperatives so as to move into other areas of economic development. Monitoring mechanisms are in place and this was based on the request of the majority of women who engage in this activity so as to improve their skills and ability to be much more productive. The department is working closely with the municipalities on transport issues especially pertaining to the IDPs that need to be aligned with the departments’ plans. However, the provision of taxi ranks is a persistent challenge. The drop in the Provincial Roads Expenditure for 2002/03 is as a result of the department’s reprioritising and targeting the far-flung areas, more specific the rural areas that are not easily accessible, hence the reprioritisation of funds. Value for money is guaranteed in the construction of the KZN roads delivery as members witnessed with the oversight visit.

Committee Comments Capacity of provinces to spend, as indicated in the Division of Revenue the withholding section becomes very applicable while provinces that does not have the capacity to spend, while provinces are build those capacity the money could be allocated to those provinces that are in a position to spend. Data also becomes a crucial element, because the reliability of data impacts on planning. Response of Treasury is that they seriously need to look at the issue of underspending and if under-spending will be incurred, that money can perhaps be shifted to the roads department. MECs should also start talking to each other in and across provinces, perhaps in the context of a department underspending, so that those departments with capacity to spend can continue to spend. Also to transfer skills across municipalities in the province or country, especially when projects were successfully completed.

1. Free State: for Public Works, Roads and Transport in the Province/s The province indicated that the department needed more funds in this regard and that national department should look at this suggestion seriously.

Response to Committee’s Questions Questions were based on the following issues: Decrease in expenditure, collections of vehicle licences and why the decline, value for money in expenditure, decrease on motor vehicle licences, road signs, litigation and how the department is dealing with this, staff shortage, quality of the bridges not well constructed in accordance with engineering specificity, staff shortage and who are these people, provincial strategic plans and provincial priorities and other trade-offs.

The Free State confirmed that the vehicle-licence figures are correct even though the figure stated in their presentation differs. The dip in the vehicle licences was as a result of an effort to stem fraud and corruption. The vehicles that were found to be suspect did not find their way to the registration process, hence the lost of revenue and the decline. Most vehicles are register in neighbouring provinces due to the higher registration fees in the Free State. Free State is number three on the most expensive list in the country. Shortage of staff includes engineers, - these people command a high salary and hence relocate if the salaries cannot be matched. Even with the limited budget, the Free State indicated that they could deliver more road per kilometre in comparison to the allocation it got in its budget as opposed to the other provinces.

1. Eastern Cape: for Public Works, Roads and Transport in the Province Department indicated its intention to take a major investment initiative in the Umtata region, which was previously neglected in the growth and development strategy of the province. They are struggling to deal with the huge backlogs in the province.

Committee Discussions The fencing of roads to make them much safer is a big challenge because people will take the fencing and use it for something else. This issue should be discussed with the Minister of Education, as people should be made aware of road safety rather than putting up fencing. The province is also experiencing low revenue collection in vehicle licencing. The committee raised the issue of the Western Cape being the highest in charging licence fees yet still thinking of implementing a provincial tax on fuel. The Eastern Cape said that it is much better to maintain roads than to build new roads.

The Eastern Cape indicated that their budget in 2000 amounted to R900 million but currently the budget has decreased to R355 million. As a result of the bad road conditions, the province is currently going through a litigation process. If this case is not in favour of the province, further pressure will be applied on the provincial roads budget. Since 1991 the conditions of the roads in the province has worsened and has serious implications and challenges for the department in the province. The province at this stage is only maintaining the roads and not upgrading the roads. Collection of vehicle licencing is also growing rapidly. The low revenue collection is also as a result of municipalities that collect the revenue on behalf of the department. However, what is experienced is that they withhold money where the province owe them. A service level agreement is currently being looked at.

1. Limpopo Presentation The province seeks to contribute towards the Growth and Development Strategy via road construction to create more jobs and tackle poverty. A key challenge is the gravel roads in the province; with any amount of rain on the road it becomes extremely dangerous. The Road Agency also managed to spend all its funds in the province this year. Revenue collection is currently a process that would allow the devolvement of this function to the municipalities. With the drop in licence-fee income it was stated that the department did not send out notices to renew licences in the province, hence the drop in licence fees.

Committee Response The committee indicated that provinces have a tendency to owe and withhold money to municipalities; the MFMA section 37 speaks to cooperative governance promotion. This creates a challenge to this sphere of government, which is at the forefront of delivery. The committee will have to monitor this phenomenon. The committee indicated that Eastern Cape has so many cars and so little income on license fees; this is a matter for further discussion. Further more, Eastern Cape has three weighbridges and the equitable distribution thereof is a continuous challenge.

Law enforcement is not only done during the day - what about at night, when many of the accidents take place? Trade-offs: infrastructure cannot be compromised because it creates jobs and fixed investment in the province. While the committee was on an oversight visit in the Eastern Cape, they saw 500 houses which had been built and not used. These houses were in the middle of nowhere, near Alice. Eastern Cape decided to feed school children for three days only, not five days. The question is, how does budgeting and planning take place?

Limpopo indicated that they are now paying teachers manually so as to root out corruption. This proved to be a success - they managed to score a saving of R3 million.

1. Free State: Housing Presentation The Free State Housing Department indicated that as a result of the capacity constraints of municipalities, the accreditation process would have to be put on hold, as this will not be to the benefit of the province at this stage. It will remain a provincial competency for now. Accreditation for now will not be considered as an option due to capacity constraints in the Free State Province, as agreed with SALGA and the National Department.

MEC Responses The Free State has a special project that is currently dealing with incomplete houses. The rollovers will be used through the EPWP (Extended Public Works Programme) to correct this challenge. Accreditation is agreed to with SALGA. It is too early to extend accreditation to municipalities currently and it would be disastrous if the department agreed to this accreditation. However, piloted projects have been started which are currently in danger of collapse. The challenge is to assist municipalities to get them up to the level to accredit them.

The amount of houses completed and information around that will be provided to the committee, as requested. Major challenges in response to the houses built since 1994 include incomplete houses of which the contractors that were involved are now non- existent. A distinction should also be drawn where poor workmanship is evident as opposed to consumer or house-owner neglect over the last few years. Overcommitment has also contributed to underexpenditure. The response to the Human Settlement Grant will be forwarded to the committee as soon as possible (next four days).

Committee Response in Summary Discussion between Housing, Roads and Treasury – to relocate money that is not spent to other departments in the province. Reluctance to pass this section of accreditation by the committee when the DORA was passed, but Treasury persuaded the committee on this issue Similar to provincial regulations tax – similar issue, the Bill was passed but not up until today optimally utilised, capacity problems etc. This will inform the committee much better when dealing with the DOR bill this next financial year. Recommendation: The committee will convene the DFIs at a meeting in Parliament to come and indicate their role in the process of development and where they participate and fit in e.g.: DBSA, Land Bank, IDC etc.

1. Western Cape Housing Presentation The Western Cape indicated that their projected expenditure is well balanced and that the second-quarter expenditure figures will reflect this fact, coupled with value for money. The Western Cape is on track to deliver 16 000 houses as per their principled commitment. The Western Cape indicated that they are not planning or tolerating any underexpenditure for the financial year as it stands.

For 1999 up until 2004, they have built 89 090 houses, both completed and still under construction. For 2004/05, the department has serviced 16 965 sites and built 15 921 houses, hence a total of R511 million was spent. In total the performance of the department adds up to a tally of 200 000 houses. The shift now is the quality rather then the quantity of the houses, hence value for money. Also due to improved specifications of houses and the conditional grant not holding track with the inflation, a lower quantity of houses could be delivered. It was a key issue for the Western Cape to speed up delivery and improve on expenditure.

The Integrated Housing and Human Settlement Programme has put forward a range of items on the menu of housing which the budget does not keep track of all, things considered equal. The Western Cape indicated that they are able to spend more and to deliver more but the budget is keeping them at ransom and holding back their performance, and also that some of the municipalities are stronger in some of these areas. Also taking into consideration that the delivery is 15 000 per year whilst the growth is 27 000 per year. Migration is also a sensitive issue as the spill-over effect is clearly felt in the Western Cape, hence the need for the neighbouring provinces to make sense of the added pressures and to deal with this issue on a much higher level.

Committee and Departmental Response The challenge of migration seems to be an ongoing battle that the provinces seem not to win and hence a much closer interaction between provinces is required. The types of trade-offs that provinces are willing to forgo are vital in the attempt to deal with external pressures that are exerted from other provinces. This presents a data challenge to the province which impacts on planning and delivery.

The solution to migration lies not at the departmental level but is an inter-provincial solution and at MINMEC level. As the migration increases and the housing pressure on the department increases, the equity share decreases. The issue of skills and working with Cuban assistance, the MEC confirmed that skills delivery and transfer is a reality and is taking place. The city as one metro is part of the accreditation; a working group has been set up between the city and the department in implementing the elements of the accreditation framework, which is a phased accreditation framework. Hence for any municipality to qualify for accreditation there is some fundamentals to be adhered to and a minimum accreditation period of two years. Although there is level, one, two and three, which is full assignment, what is full assignment in terms of the role and future role of provincial department of housing and local government? There might be a range of unintended consequences of accreditation, which need to engaged with.

1. Gauteng Presentation The department indicated that they not only respond to the housing waiting list but in terms of the needs that exists so as to indeed be a caring government. Those who qualify in terms of the need are those who look after children affected by HIV and Aids and caregivers, who are predominantly older persons and grandparents. The department is also questioning a waiting list as opposed to a database, because a database allows flexibility as opposed to waiting list, which orders things and makes for inflexibility. A new initiative is the community-builder programme, to provide opportunities for local community to engage in building their own settlements. The backlogs are extremely distorted, as the data has not yet been cleaned. Gauteng has established programme management officers that would assist with the development and delivery of houses, also to ensure some form of accountability.

The department also are looking at inner-city regeneration as another alternative to deal with housing backlog.

Committee Response Gauteng agreed that accreditation is not yet an option to pursue at this stage; a similar sentiment was echoed by SALGA in the Free State - that capacity in the provinces does not exist at this stage. The DORA document addressed Gauteng’s concern about the shortage of funds by the withholding of allocations from provinces that cannot spend to reallocate perhaps to those provinces/department/municipalities that can spend.

The department also highlighted the challenges of the procurement policies, which is very inconsistent. The province is initiating the support of those smaller companies to be assisted by the bigger companies in the procurement process so as to transfer skills until they are sustainable. This will also assist with security. The department has also put in place an anti- corruption unit to deal with corruption and outstanding moneys paid for work not fully completed.

1. Presentation By North –West Province North-West indicated that the average delivery per year was 12 000 houses per year. The province had delegated many of its projects to the municipalities and agrees that this decision has come back to haunt them in more ways than one. It is showing up in the decline in expenditure and therefore roll-overs will be taking place. A SALGA audit report indicated that the capacity for municipalities to deliver in building houses is zero. The department admitted that it has been more like a paymaster with its hands–off approach - just receiving money from national and handing it over to those that need to be paid (e.g. municipalities).

Committee Interaction The committee has identified the important fact that accreditation is a serious issue, as is the withholding clause and the transfer of funds to other departments that can spend. The committee identified these as matters of urgency and suggested strengthening the Division of Revenue Act on these and related issues. The committee made it clear that departments cannot always blame capacity for underexpenditure. Clearly the committee needed to call all the relevant interested parties involved in capacity building together, e.g. DBSA, DPLG, National Treasury, so that we can interrogate the training figures at this stage.

Committee Recommendations:

• The information in the Provincial Budgets Expenditure Review 2001/02 –
  2007/08 should be kept the way it is with the Local Government
  Information separately;

• Non-financial information needs to appear in the document;


• The committee is concerned about MECs who do not respond in terms of
  the invite to these types of hearings and feel that the powers vested
  in the committee and those in the  Public Finance Management Act
  should be explored further;

• Data should be verified, due the fact that data is disputed when the
  MECs are present before the committee;

• On the issue of data, the committee will have to set aside a time to
  interact with STATS SA and other institutions making use of data-
  intensive methods;

• The committee further recommend that the report be circulated to all
  the relevant provincial departments and participants in the province
  via the correct protocol procedures,

• Information on the equitable share and the conditional grants should
  continue to be presented before the committee as it gives a clearer
  picture of provincial departmental expenditure;

1. Report of the Select Committee on Finance on the Special Pensions Amendment Bill [B 28B - 2005] (National Assembly – Section 75), dated 15 November 2005:

The Select Committee on Finance, having considered the subject of the Special Pensions Amendment Bill [B 28B – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 75), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a Section 75 Bill, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

1. Report of the Select Committee on Finance on the Auditing Profession Bill [B 31B - 2005] (National Assembly – Section 75), dated 15 November 2005:

The Select Committee on Finance, having considered the subject of the Auditing Profession Bill [B 31B – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 75), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a Section 75 Bill, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

[1] Withdrawn and Hon Prince NE Zulu nominated by Chief Whip of the Inkatha Freedom Party, Hon JH Van Der Merwe on 27 October 2005.