WEDNESDAY, 16 NOVEMBER 2005

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          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

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The Council met at 14:01.

The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr M A MZIZI: Deputy Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move, on behalf of the IFP:

That the House-

(1) notes with shock that elderly people hide behind the web of drunkenness and commit hideous crimes. It is alleged that a drunk woman pushed an 11-year-old girl into her teenage son’s bedroom and instructed him to rape the child. The police acted swiftly and apprehended the 18-year-old boy;

(2) commends the police’s quick action in apprehending the suspect; and

(3) further recommends that the mother of the boy should be arrested and face the wrath of the law.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Before we proceed, we would like to welcome the national Minister of Education, hon Pandor, to the House. Please feel welcome, and thank you for being here this afternoon.

Ms H LAMOELA: Madam Chair, I refer to recent press reports in regard to Matriek Ongeletterd in Die Burger of 14 November 2005, and therefore give notice that at the next sitting of the House I will move that-

(1) the Minister ensures that government reviews the school syllabus on literacy and numeracy as a matter of urgency;

(2) ensures that standards are maintained and that the matric certificate is a credible qualification recognised by both employers and institutions nationally and internationally.

DELMAS MUNICIPAL MANAGER ACCUSED OF ENRICHING HIMSELF FROM TYPHOID OUTBREAD

                         (Draft Resolution) Mr A WATSON: Madam Chair, I move without notice utter:

That the council -

(1) notes that the Delmas municipal manager, Mr Tefo Kadi, has been accused of trying to enrich himself from the typhoid outbreak in the area;

(2) notes that this municipal manager has reportedly claimed R43 000 in overtime payment for the extra hours he worked during the outbreak of typhoid in September;

(3) notes that the DA local leader, Barry Chamberlain, has written to the Mpumalanga local government and housing MEC, Mr Jabu Mahlangu, asking him to investigate and rule on the matter; and

(4) now calls on this House to condemn outright his actions as a shameful attempt to benefit from the sad plight of so many, actions that are extremely shameful for any person to contemplate, let alone a so- called servant of the people.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Is there any objection to the motion? Hon Chief Whip, are you objecting?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Yes.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): In the light of the objection, the motion may not be proceeded with. The motion without notice will now become notice of a motion.

RESPECT FOR DEMOCRATIC VALUES ENSHRINED IN CONSTITUTION TO BE UPHELD IN PARTY SELECTION PROCESS AND APPOINTMENT OF COUNCILLORS

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Deputy Chairperson, I would like to move without notice:

That the Council–

(1) acknowledges the constitutional role entrusted to it in terms of section 139 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1996;

(2) recognises that municipalities are at the forefront of delivery of services and thus reconstruction and development of our country;

(3) condemns any action which seeks to undermine the free expression of the will of the people in the party selection processes, including intimidation through the use or threat of violence;

(4) calls upon all our people in their approach to the selection process to put the interests of the Republic of South Africa before the interests of individuals;

(5) urges all political parties and local communities to present as candidate councillors people they are convinced are truly committed to serve the people of South Africa, which commitment can be demonstrated through the respect for the following democratic values enshrined in section 195 of our Constitution: efficient, economic and effective use of resources; high standards of professional ethics, accountability and impartiality in the delivery of services; and

(6) therefore resolves to embark on a public campaign to promote the achievement of the objective of good councillors for developmental municipalities.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Thank you, hon Chairperson. As there is no speakers’ list, I shall now put the question. The question is that the motion be agreed to. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all the delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. Are all delegation heads present?

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces an opportunity to make declarations of vote if they so wish. We shall now proceed to voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour of, or against, or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Supports the motion.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Free State?

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Gauteng?

Mr E M SOGONI: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI: KwaZulu-Natal is in favour.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Limpopo?

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Re a amogela. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Mpumalanga?

Ms F NYANDA: Mpumalanga supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Northern Cape?

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Kapa Bokone e ya dumelana. [Northern Cape supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: North West ke a rona. [North West supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Western Cape?

Mr P C MCKENZIE (Western Cape): Wes-Kaap steun. [Western Cape supports.]

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                    EDUCATION LAWS AMENDMENT BILL


            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Chairperson, it is indeed a great honour once more to have the opportunity to speak in the House. I would like to begin by indicating to hon members that with respect to this Bill and its objectives, there is no going back.

The Education Laws Amendment Bill of 2005 supports action on a number of important issues that confront the sector today. The Bill introduces three important changes to current law in school education, changes that we believe will assist us in promoting and accelerating positive progress in education.

The first change concerns school fees, which, in terms of the current law, are obligatory to parents. On commencement of the Act, public schools will be prevented from charging parents any registration, administration or other fees in addition to agreed school fees.

Public schools will not be allowed to charge differentiated school fees within the same grade based on curricula or extramural curricula criteria. A parent’s body’s resolution to charge school fees will have to provide for a school budget that takes into account the estimated cumulative effect of school fee exemptions and the historical trends of nonpayment of fees at the school concerned. So, budgeting will have to be done far more carefully. The Minister of Education will be empowered to declare schools to be no-fee schools based on a national index of poverty of the communities served by the schools.

Primarily, then, this Bill enables the abolition of school fees in our poorest schools. This, I believe, is the most significant aspect of the Bill. Yet between the introduction of the Bill in the other House and the passage of the Bill in this House, various stakeholders have declared, either at the public hearings of the Human Rights Commission into the right to education or on the coat-tails of this event, that this important aspect of the Bill is a debacle or a farce, despite, for some of these commentators, the public support that they gave to the Bill during parliamentary hearings.

I believe the abolition of school fees in our poorest schools is not a debacle or a farce. It is the fulfilment of a promise made in the Freedom Charter and a commitment the ANC gave on becoming the democratic leadership of this country. Moreover, the abolition of school fees for compulsory schooling is a growing trend worldwide and part of our participation in Unesco and the UN’s drive to meet its millennium goals.

In fact, those researchers who are asking why we do not have free primary schooling universally in South Africa are posing the right question, because in most African countries children attend primary school for free where it is compulsory. Yet, we continue to have a system of user charges that create fairly unequal conditions for many of the children who attend our schools.

We believe, therefore, that the abolition of school fees is part of what is a growing trend all over the world and is part of what Unesco and other international organisations have said is an important step that needs to be taken in meeting the Millennium Development Goals that were agreed to at the United Nations. Hon members would know that most of the provincial education budget tends to be spent on personnel costs. In the past, this has meant that recurrent spending has been crowded out, or rather that spending on personnel has had first call on our budgets.

Many people comment on the fact that, in their view, not enough resources are going to education, whilst they also recognise that South Africa makes a significant amount of its national budget available to education. Yet, when they comment, they don’t actually examine how the budget is being utilised. When over 80% of it is going towards personnel costs, very little is left with which to do other things. This is part of a challenge that we must address.

One of the things that we have found is that many of our provinces fail each year to meet the norms we set for recurrent expenditure, and the gap in funds has to be met by schools through the charging of school fees.

When you can’t employ a secretary because you are paying the teacher the bulk of the provincial budget, it means the school then has to charge user fees in order to be able to employ a secretary or an administrative clerk. This is a problem for utilisation of the national Budget.

Now, what we know from very clear evidence, which every member in this House has access to, is that at four fifths of our schools – four out of five - the fees might be very small. In some schools, I have discovered, they are only charging R50 a year. So, for me, it’s easy - only R50, we would say, as members of Parliament. So, small in absolute quanta terms, but a crushing burden for most parents in our country, and this is what we must respond to. There are many families that can’t afford even that kind of sum, which appears small to us.

So, given the reality we find, given the burden on the poor, given the inability of parents to actually execute in terms of an obligation to pay fees, we have decided to abolish school fees in the poorest of our communities, beginning with the poorest 20%. [Applause.] And that is what this Bill achieves. It gives our government the power to abolish school fees in the poorest 20% of schools in South Africa.

Madam Deputy Chairperson, you would agree with me that this cannot be called a debacle, it cannot be called a farce; this is a victory in our struggle to provide better education and access for all the children in our country. Therefore, I repeat, there is no going back. Last year provinces spent R3,7 billion on recurrent expenditure. That money was just not enough to meet the norms that we published as national norms of funding at the national level. Our minibudget in the last month, published by the Minister of Finance, gave the provincial equitable share a significant injection of funds.

From 2006, therefore, we will be able to declare 20% of schools fee free, because provinces will have over R4 billion to allow this to happen. The additional funds have been announced in the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement. Members have copies of the budget review documents, and therefore they know that an additional amount of over R30 billion for social services has been available. It is this funding which will support provinces in implementing the norms that we have published.

These, I am pleased to say, are not figures that I am merely pulling out of my hat. They have been presented to our Parliament by our Minister of Finance, and we now know how much more money is available to the national fiscus to allow us to achieve this objective from 2006 and in future years. We will be able to execute next year. All we should do is say to the provinces that we expect them to act in this regard.

In fact, in my view, it doesn’t require the publication by the national Minister of the no-fee schools. Provinces should already be alert to the fact that they will be receiving greater amounts of funding. Therefore they, essentially, should already be doing their review work to say which schools are the ones that fall in the 20% and will therefore be declared no- fee schools. This is so that we know what to expect as parents when we bring children through to our schools next year.

It is true, as has been reported in a number a newspapers, that I do not yet have the legal framework to declare fee-free schools, but as I say, I have already announced - unquestioned and without any doubt – that the funds will be available and the provinces can act. The funds will be available. [Applause.] So whether the Minister can declare or not is actually immaterial. What we need is for the provinces to execute what is an accepted model.

There is more money. No school will have less money next year than they had this year. Instead, if all goes according to plan, schools that were having the kind of difficulty I referred to - where the absolute fund might be small, but the ability to pay is extremely limited - in terms of next year, what we should have for the first time is more schools having funds for recurrent expenditure. Schools should have more money than they have ever had before, if we execute through provinces appropriately as government intends.

There will be more funding. It is for our provinces to ensure that it reaches our schools on time, that they allocate effectively according to the national norm and that they allow our schools to support our children to learn and our teachers to teach. There is, I repeat, no going back.

In my view it is crucial that we act in 2006, because members are fully alert to the fact that recurrent costs - such as uniforms, textbooks, stationery and other nonpersonnel and noncapital costs, and, of course, this is what I mean by recurrent; I’ve used the term recurrent and some members are frowning - are often prohibitive. They do pose a challenge and a burden, and are a barrier to many children in our school system.

I could tell members of the numbers of children who are turned back from schools because they don’t have the right colour shoes in accordance with the school uniforms. Now we will be providing funding for the school to actually be able to assist those children to acquire that uniform. That is what the declared amount of funds is intended to assist with. [Applause.]

What I am hoping for, if we are thinking and monitoring as members -I see my time is running out - is that the members of Parliament will engage this 20% of schools and actually say to them: “Are you supporting local community production of reasonable uniforms; are you ensuring that the children have access; have you got a uniform policy that is affordable, or are you continuing to make children have the most expensive blazer, the most expensive tie and so on?” We should take an interest in seeing how the law is implemented in practical terms so that all our children benefit.

The abolition of these fees will breach that barrier, which has often been imposed on poor children, and will set us on what I see as the beginning of the road to free and compulsory education in South Africa. This is something that we must achieve for our children.

The net effect of the Bill is to improve funding for schools; it makes it easier for parents to apply for exemption; and it creates the possibility for targeted interventions that enhance the quality of resources available for education and extracurricular activities.

Having additional funding for these recurrent areas of costs means that schools can now determine if they want to buy more library books, have some equipment for art, etc. They will have those funds available once these norms are operational. It’s a bold step towards free education for the poor. It needs to be welcomed, it needs to be applauded and it needs to be supported. There will, of course, be implementation challenges, but I believe this should not weaken our resolve to overcome the problem.

I believe that if somebody has a well-considered, well-researched and better solution, they must please come forward and let us know, because this is something that we must do. But until you have the research, until you have the better model, please stop the populist rhetoric which takes us nowhere. And please stop the pessimistic media statements, which don’t assist us, from those who predict failure for South Africa all the time. There is no going back.

There are several other changes, which we will support as schools – the issue of disciple and ensuring that our schools and the governing bodies can act against ill-disciplined children and act speedily because this has been a problem. Our processes have been too slow. We will now have them acting in a much faster way and ensuring that children who are, indeed, very ill-disciplined and are a danger in the school can be dealt with speedily. Clearly, not all matters of discipline can be addressed by legislation - families and communities need to begin to play a part - but this legislation does assist us to do what we can.

The final change relates to procedures for recommending candidates for employment as teachers. I hope that hon members will support the entire piece of legislation and the very positive proposals that it makes. Thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): We thank the hon Minister of Education for her comprehensive and informative debate. Thank you, hon Minister.

I now call upon the hon B J Tolo, chairperson of the Select Committee on Education and Recreation, to continue the debate. Mr B J TOLO: Deputy Chair, hon Minister and hon members, I think we agree that there shouldn’t be any going back in terms of this legislation. We are going to do everything in our power, as members of this legislature, to support the department to see to it that there is no going back.

A country that does not invest in the grey matter enclosed in the skull of a child is a country that is not serious about its future. It is a country that will permanently remain trapped in poverty and underdevelopment. It will incessantly beg for fish instead of learning how to fish.

We can consider ourselves very fortunate to belong to this great country that takes the education of the nation, and particularly that of children, very seriously. The education laws that this Parliament passed since the epoch-making event the liberation of our country in 1994, are unsurpassed in the history of this country.

The Education Laws Amendment Bill before this House today will take our education system to even greater heights. The amendments we are effecting to the South African Schools Act of 1996 and the Employment of Educators Act of 1998 will change forever the education landscape of our country.

We all know that from time to time there are problems of misconduct by learners in schools. The manner in which these are dealt with by different schools poses some problems. The Bill before us today brings some certainty as to how these problems can be dealt with in the interests of both the school and the learner. It also outlines the timeframes within which the head of a department of education in a province should consider recommendations of the governing body referred to him or her with regard to disciplinary problems. We are convinced that these provisions in the Bill will go a long way in balancing the interests of both the child and the school.

The cost of education is very high in our country, especially for the majority of our people who are poor. It is therefore imperative to relieve the poor parents from the trauma of having to worry about the school fees of their children. It is also a contradiction in terms if we speak of compulsory education for our kids up to the age of 15, whilst the conditions are not conducive to that type of situation.

We commend the Department of Education for introducing this Bill. In this Bill provision is made for no-fee schools on the basis of the national quintiles. This will allow for greater access to education. Through this Bill the Department of Education is truly opening the doors of learning to the poorest of the poor, as these doors have hitherto been only half open.

We must also hasten to say that this will only be realised if a school is receiving more than the adequacy benchmark level from the provincial department of education. It is hoped that the above policy will benefit schools falling within quintile 1 and quintile 2 for starters.

The rest of the schools, in quintile 3 to quintile 5, will still have the right to charge school fees, but such school fees will only be a top-up on what the school shall have received from the provincial department of education to put it at a level where a school would have been a no-fee school.

It has also become clear that certain schools, when determining their annual budget, do not take into consideration the fact that some learners will be exempted. They draw up their budgets as if every learner will be able to pay school fees. The Bill before us compels schools to draw up realistic budgets, which will exclude those who apply for exemption. It also prohibits schools from charging other fees, over and above school fees, during the course of the year.

We all know that despite the fact that the South African Schools Act is unequivocal about exemptions from school fees, there are some schools that either pretend not to understand this policy or simply ignore it. We have read in newspapers how dwellings of parents who could not afford to pay school fees were attached and sold by schools to recoup their money.

This Bill confirms the right of schools to use the law to enforce the payment of school fees by parents who do not qualify for exemptions. This Bill provides that this can only be done when there is written proof that such parents were duly notified, and that three months after the notification the parents had still not responded positively.

It also provides that, in the process of doing so, the dwelling of the parents may not be attached, and that the school may not in any manner sanction the learner of such parents. This therefore makes it very clear that even if there is litigation between the school and the parents of a learner, the learner’s inalienable right to education cannot and must not be tampered with.

In our genuine attempt to bring democratic governance into schools, we devolved too many powers to the school governing bodies. The unintended consequences are that some of the schools use these powers to block transformation in the schools. The Employment of Educators Act provides that the school’s governing body must recommend to the provincial head of the department a teacher to be appointed if a vacant post exists.

The reality is that some governing bodies have recommended only one person to the head of the department, and he or she in turn had no alternative but to appoint the recommended person. In essence, it is the governing body that appoints, rather than the head of the provincial department of education. For this reason, 11 years into our democracy, we still find situations in which, even if you have more than 90% black children in a school, 100% of the teachers are still white.

In some rural areas a school’s governing body will appoint a teacher who comes from that particular locality, even if that teacher does not know the subject for which that vacant post exists. This situation cannot be allowed to continue forever.

It is for that reason that this Bill becomes an instrument to change the situation. The situation in this amending Bill is that it must be the department of education that appoints teachers, and not indirect appointment by the school governing body.

We are aware that there are some people, or parties, who want to oppose the provisions of this Bill. We want to remind them that he who pays the piper calls the music. It would also help them to know that in many countries in the world, including our neighbour Botswana, a teacher applies for appointment not to a school, but to the department of education, which employs teachers and deploys teachers to any school in the country where there is a need for such a teacher.

It is therefore our considered view that the provisions of this Bill before us are moderate and necessary if we are serious about deracialising our schools and the appointment of competent teachers to teach our children.

Our school system has too many temporary teachers. Some remain in these posts, which are part of the education establishment and therefore funded, for many years. Such teachers cannot plan their own lives, as they cannot go to a furniture shop and buy furniture on hire-purchase. None amongst them can apply for a housing loan. Such teachers are therefore not happy, and to expect maximum productivity from them is to expect water from a stone.

With the passage of this Bill, the lives of such educators will now change beyond recognition, as the heads of the departments in the provinces are now given powers to appoint temporary teachers on a permanent basis, after consultation and not in consultation with school governing bodies. To us this is very clear that the Department of Education is very sensitive to the plight of the teachers out there.

In conclusion, we want to thank the Department of Education for bringing these amendments to the House. We have no doubt in our minds that these amendments will bring the necessary stability to the education system of our country. We eagerly await positive outputs as a result of this legislation.

Finally, we want to call upon the treasury departments of all the nine provinces to budget adequately for the provision of education. We are aware of the conflicting challenges that the provinces face, but we are saying that the best investment is investment in education.

It will be a sad day for this country if all these policy positions are not embraced and funded by the provinces. This Bill will not be worth the paper it is written on if it is not implemented. We commend this Bill to this House. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Nk N F MAZIBUKO: Sihlalo, uSomqulu weNkululeko uthi iminyango yezemfundo izovuleka. Nangempela avulekile amasango ngenxa yokuthi uma kushicilelwa lo Mthetho obhekene namalungelo abafundi obizwa phecelezi, South African Schools Act, zonke izingane zizokwazi ukuthi ziye esikoleni.

Lo Mthetho esihlangene ngawo uhlongoza ukwelekelela abazali noma izingane ezingenabo abazali futhi ezingekwazi ukukhokha ukuze nazo zikwazi ukuya kothola ulwazi ezikoleni, ikakhulu izikole zomphakathi, ngaphandle kokuhlukunyezwa ngenxa yokweswela imali. Wonke umzali ozele ingane lapha emhlabeni kumele abambe iqhaza ekufundiseni ingane noma izingane zakhe ukuze zifunde kahle zibe ngabaholi bakusasa.

Sizishayela ihlombe izinyathelo ezithathwe nguNgqongqoshe wezeMfundo zokuqinisekisa ukuthi abazali abadla imbuya ngothi, abangakwazi ukukhokha izindleko zesikole, nabo abaphoqekile ukuthi bakhokhe futhi kufuneka bangesabi ukuthi izindlu zabo zizodliwa noma izingane zixoshwe esikoleni. Ingane yona ngeke inqatshelwe ukufunda nokudlala imidlalo yesikole. Futhi ingane ngeke inqatshelwe ukunikezwa iriphothi noma incwadi yokushiya esikoleni.

Ngqongqoshe, izikole eziningi, lezi esizibiza ngokuthi ama-section 21, ziyenqaba ukunika abantwana izincwadi zabo zesikole uma bengakhokhile. Njengoba unyaka uphela nje iningi lezingane ngeke liwudle uKhisimuzi ngenxa yokuthi abazali bazobe bengawanikezwanga amariphothi noma isikole siyobe salile ukunikeza incwadi yesikole. Ngithemba-ke ukuthi wonke amalungu esishayamthetho lapha eNdlini yoMkhandlu azokwazi ukunceda abafundi nabazali abangawazi kahle amalungelo abo mayelana nalokhu, njengoba sesihamba siya kosebenza emakhaya.

Kokuphathelene nempahla yesikole, sesadlula isikhathi lapho ubani nobani, ikakhulu omagimbela kwesakhe, bebenza khona umathanda bedayisa impahla yesikole ngaphandle kwemvume kaNgqongqoshe wesifunda. Ngisho nentengo uma ngabe yehlesiwe kuzokwazi ukuthi nanoma ubani akwazi ukubamba iqhaza ukuze impahla yesikole ingebiwa nanoma kanjani.

Ukuqashwa kothisha kungenye futhi ingxenye kulo Mthetho okuzanywa ukuthi ilungiswe ukuze imikhandlu yokuphathwa kwezikole ingenzi umathanda ngokuthi iqashe abangani bayo, kepha iqashe labo okufanele ukuthi baqashwe. Ngawo lo Mthetho sithemba ukuthi sizokwazi ukuthi sibone othisha bengalokhu beyilokhu esikubiza ngokuthi “othisha besikhashana”. Nabo kufuneka baqashwe kahle njengawo wonke umuntu ukuze bakwazi ukuya kozithengela izimpahla ezitolo, bakwazi ukuthenga izindlu noma bakwazi ukuvula izikweleti.

Uma sengiphetha, ngifuna ukuthi: Siyabonga Ngqongqoshe ngalo Mthetho ngoba abazali abaningi bebengawazi amalungelo abo. Manje sebeyawazi amalungelo abo. Ngikhumbula ngaleziya zinkathi mina nelungu uGoeieman sisengamalungu kakhongolose wabafundi. Sasilwela ukuthi singakhokhi izimali zesikole. Ngithemba-ke Ngqongqoshe ukuthi kule minyaka ezayo sizobona kuzo zonke izikole izingane zingasazikhokhi izimali zesikole. Ngisho nabo othisha labo abenqaba ukunika izingane amariphothi azo nabo bazokwazi ukujeziswa. Ngalawo mazwi ngithi ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu speech follows.)

[Ms N F MAZIBUKO: Chairperson, the Freedom Charter says that the doors of learning shall be opened. Indeed, doors are open, because this Act concerning the rights of learners, the South African Schools Act, has been passed. All children will be able to go to school.

This Act that we are discussing seeks to help parents or orphans who are unable to pay school fees. The children will be able to go to school and require knowledge without being discriminated against on the grounds of their financial situation, especially in public schools. Every parent in this country must participate in educating his or her child or children so that they are able to get an education and become the leaders of tomorrow.

We salute the decision taken by the Minister of Education to see to it that poor parents who are unable to pay school fees are not obliged to pay and that they need not live in fear of having their houses repossessed or of their children being dismissed from schools. A child would not be refused the opportunity to receive schooling and to play school games. They will not be refused school reports or school transfers.

Minister, schools that we call section 21 schools are refusing to give children books if they have not paid their school fees. As the year ends, a lot of children will not be celebrating Christmas because their parents will not have their school reports or school transfers. I hope that all the members in this House will be able to help learners and parents who don’t understand their rights concerning this as we are going to the constituencies.

Concerning school material, those days when everybody, especially those who were greedy, who used to do what they liked and sold school material without permission from the provincial Minister, are over. If the prices are reduced, everybody will be able to participate and see to it that school material is not stolen.

Recruitment of teachers is the other part of this Act that we are trying to amend so that the school governing bodies won’t do as they wish by recruiting their friends, but recruit those who deserve to be recruited. With this Act, we hope that we won’t see teachers becoming what we call “temporary teachers”. They must be recruited like anybody else so that they will be able to buy goods in shops, buy houses or open credit accounts.

In conclusion, I would like to say thank you, Minister, for this Act, because lots of parents didn’t know their rights. They know their rights now. I remember those days when Comrade Goeieman and I were still members of the Students’ Congress. We were fighting for free education. I hope that the Minister will see to it that schoolchildren don’t pay school fees in the future. Those teachers who don’t want to give children their reports are going to be punished. Thank you.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Thank you, hon Mazibuko. We are sorry about that. We now call upon the hon Mr Thetjeng.

Mr O M THETJENG: Thank you, Chairperson. I hope there is power.

Chairperson, hon colleagues and members of the public, changes in a society that has been bedevilled by discriminatory laws. These changes must always be for the good of the citizens, particularly laws that are to govern their livelihoods in matters that affect their education.

Education becomes the cardinal aspect of every nation in the world for development in areas such as economy, technological advancement and so on. When a government does something positive, it needs to be commended and showered with praise. And if it does something out of this world, it must be condemned and put in line with what the stakeholders want, because we serve them.

We support the concept of the fee-free schools. We all know that there are a large number of parents who cannot afford to pay school fees, owing to unemployment which is spiralling on a daily basis. We all know that some politicians are in denial about the unemployment rate that is increasing every day, and yet we see it in our communities. It is even affecting those who have been through tertiary training in that they are not employed today, but have had training.

A fee-free school must then be provided with the necessary resources to run its affairs, because the fees were used to supplement what government could not provide. There should not be compromise as we have seen with some of our poor schools that have been operating without books for learners.

The DA has always maintained that our labour laws are rigid, not user- friendly, and stereotyped. The procedures for the employment and dismissal of employees are very cumbersome. The argument presented that it takes too long to employ teachers owing to procedures stipulated in these laws is correct, and we commend that realisation.

The introduction of clause 7 in the Education Laws Amendment Bill confirms the position of the DA in as far as the rigidity of these laws is concerned. They have come back to haunt the ANC-controlled government. [Interjections.] We have always proposed that these laws be reviewed, but who would listen?

The measures introduced give one individual – who is the head of the department and who is not to be present during the interview – the authority to arbitrarily choose from the three names presented the one of the person who is going to be employed.

The governing bodies are in a better position to decide and employ the best candidate irrespective of race, colour, gender and other criteria that have been included in the Statute Book. The best teachers are likely not to be employed if their colour is not right according to this provision. We just heard somebody here say that a school had 90% black kids and yet 100% of the teachers were white. It is not the colour that we are looking for. It is the quality of the teacher that we are looking for that will actually give our kids education. [Interjections.]

Adding salt to the wound, we heard this morning on Radio SA FM that schools that have applied to top salaries of teachers . . .

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Order!

Mr O M THETJENG: . . . [Inaudible.] . . . successful – that is in Gauteng. Teachers are not paid very well, and those parents who are willing to pay so that the salaries of the teachers can be topped up must be free to do so. The governing bodies do not have to apply to the MEC for approval, because the money to be used is from parents.

The ANC wants to control every aspect within the school, even those that parents are using their own money to pay for and to top up teachers’ salaries. We cannot allow this kind of approach in which people want to control everything that parents want to do. The proposal then is that the head of department . . . [Inaudible.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Order!

Mr O M THETJENG: . . . should apply an overriding principle in the appointment of teachers, that is the ability to contribute to quality education. That is what this country needs, and not what we have had.

The Bill erodes the principle of devolution of power. An hon member just said that the governing bodies had too much power, and this is exactly what this Bill is doing – eroding the power that parents and the governing bodies have had in running the affairs of their children . . . [Inaudible.]

Business suspended at 14:47 and resumed at 15:35.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Members, may we have order!

Members, we are just waiting for the Hansard system to pick up the recording after the power failure.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Hon members, you may be seated. I now call upon the hon member Thetjeng to complete . . . [Interjections.] Has he absconded? I then call upon … May I have order, please! Thank you. I then call upon the hon J N Vilakazi, of the IFP, to continue the debate.

Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Chairperson, I don’t know whether the interpreting service is available . . . [Interjections.] Sihlalo ohloniphekileyo, mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe woMnyango nabasizi bakho, imfundo iyisikhali kuwo wonke umuntu. Iyisidingo esingafanele nakancane ukugqamisa abadla izambane likapondo kwabadla imbuya ngothi. Kuhle impela uNgqongqoshe awuchibiyele lo Mthetho wemfundo wango-1996. Kuningi osekonakala kuwo.

Sikuthulela isigqoko mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe ngalolu chibiyelo. Umntwana ovela kwandlwana ufunda kanzima ehlukumezekile ngoba kuthi noma ethola ithuba lokuya esikoleni aswele umfaniswano odingwa yisikole afunda kusona; noma ethengelwa angabi nakho okokushintsha. Maqondana nemali yesikole, kuthi ehlwempu kanjalo, uthisha wakhe afune imali yesikole la, enayo engenayo kwabanye akuthi shu lokho, yize umthetho usho ukuthi abangahlukunyezwa abantwana abaswele ngokuthi baxoshwe esikoleni, babanjelwe imiphumela, noma ukuyofuna imali kumzali ohlwempu kwayena. Ngokuchibiyela lo Mthetho, mhlayimbe kukhona okuzoxega okuyijoka elikhulu kubazali abangenamandla okukhokha le mali yesikole. Siyethemba uNgqongqoshe noMnyango bazoqikelela impela ukuqaphela isigaba 39(4) nawo wonke amaphuzwana aso ukuze kungaveli olunye uhlobo lokuhlukumeza.

Isigaba 41 nezigatshana ezingaphansi kwaso esinika imikhandlu eyengamele izikole amandla okuphoqa ukukhokhwa kwemali yesikole ngenkani kuseyikho ukuhlukumeza lokho. Akekho umzali ongayeka ukukhokhela ingane yakhe enawo amandla. Kusuke kukhona inkinga anayo. Lokhu kwenzeka ezikoleni zomphakathi ontulayo. Empeleni, ijoka le mali yesikole eNingizimu Afrika kuyophela ukuba libe yinkinga kuwo wonke umuntu othintekayo mhlazane imfundo iba ngeyamahhala kuzo zonke izikole okungezomphakathi kuze kugcine kumatikuletsheni, ikhokhelwe kuphela ezikoleni ezizimele. Kuyophela umthwalo kubo bonke abazali lapho ngoba nakuwo lo mthetho kukhona lokhu nalokhuya, izoqhamuka nenxokozelo nokunye nokunye.

Maqondana nemikhandlu yezikole, le mikhandlu engamela izikole eyaziwa ngo- school governing bodies, kufanele iwazi umsebenzi ebekelwe wona futhi iwenze ngokuthembeka, iyidlale indima yomzali engekho, ifundiswe futhi umsebenzi wokwengamela izikole, ikakhulukazi ezikoleni ezisemakhaya. Ezikoleni ezixube izinhlanga umkhandlu owengamele mawuxube nawo ukhombise ukuthi isikole sixube izinhlanga, hhayi lokhu esikubonayo ezindaweni esihlala kuzo nesiye sizihambele njengekomidi. Umuntu uye athole ukuthi izingane zixubile kakhulu kodwa umkhandlu ube uwuhlobo olulodwa nje kuphela, bese kuba khona oyedwa nje wokubika ukuthi, cha, nathi siyazama.

Ukujezisa umntwana uma onile akube nesifundo phakathi, kumakhe umntwana ongumfundi. Akudede ekubeni ukujezisa okuzokwakha inzondo, ulaka namagqubu. Ukujezisa okuhle ngokumakhayo umfundi kunokuba kumhlukumeze emphefumulweni nasengqondweni, njengokuvimbela ingane ukuba ihambele izifundo zayo. Kungukujezisa okunesihluku lokho, akufanele ukwenziwa. Ukubopha ingane ingaphumi esikoleni kanye nezinye izingane, lokhu okuthiwa yi-detention, kudala ubutha nenzondo futhi akumakhi neze umfundi.

Mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe, indlela yokujezisa umntwana makube yileyo esemthethweni. Sihlale sizwa okunganambitheki kahle lapha ekujezisweni kwabafundi, kuze kungenelwane ezinkantolo kube njeya. Akufanele ukwenzeka lokho endaweni yemfundo.

Ukuqashwa kothisha okuthiwa abesikhashana akulungiswe impela. Kukhona uzakwethu oseke waphawula ngalokhu. Kubuhlungu kakhulu ukuzwa ukuthi uthisha usefundise iminyaka engaka engowesikhashana. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Hon Chairperson, hon Minister of Education and officials from the department, education is the key for everyone. It is a necessity that should not expose those who live in abject poverty to those who live in ostentatious riches. It is indeed very good that the Minister intends amending this 1996 legislation. A lot of things went wrong with that.

We take our hats off to the Minister for this amendment. Children from poor families have always been suffering because you would find that even if they get a chance to go to school, they do not have money for school uniforms, and those with uniforms do not have another set. Regarding school fees, you find that teachers demand school fees from destitute parents; some are even chased away from schools, which is of course illegal, and their results are withheld and destitute parents are nagged about school fees. With this amendment, we trust that a certain yoke will be removed from the poor parents who cannot afford school fees. We hope the Minister and the department will look closely look at section 39(4) and other points listed there so as to eliminate all room for any kind of harassment.

Section 41, and its subsection, which gives school governing bodies the right forcefully to impose school fees still forms part of this harassment. A parent who can afford to do so will always pay for his or her child, unless he or she has another problem. This happens particularity in needy communities. In fact the yoke of school fees will only be removed from the parents once free education is introduced up to matric level in all public schools. That will be the day when the load is taken off the parents, because even in this very legislation there is still this and that, which will surely be met with a hubbub from other concerned groups.

Regarding the school governing bodies, these councils should know exactly what they stand for and should perform their duties faithfully, and play the role of a parent in the absence of a parent, and they also should be taught how to govern schools, especially the ones in rural areas. In multiracial schools the school governing bodies should reflect the races at school and not what is currently happening in certain schools that we as a committee visited. One would find that the school is multiracial, but the school governing body is comprised of a certain race only and perhaps one member from the other races would just be included for the sake of inclusion.

On the question of punishment of learners at schools, there should be a lesson in it, and should mould the learner. Punishment of learners should not breed hatred, anger and grudges. Good punishment is the kind that moulds the learner, not the kind that will harm the learner emotionally and psychologically, like barring the learner from attending classes. This is abusive punishment, and it should not be allowed. Detention also creates hatred and abhorrence and it does not mould the learner at all.

Hon Minister, only legal ways of punishing learners should be used. We always hear distasteful stories regarding the punishment meted out to learners; sometimes matters would even end up in court. This should not happen in the sphere of education.

The question of temporary teachers should also be reviewed. One of my colleagues has just commented on this. It is really disconcerting to hear that a certain teacher has been teaching for so many years, only to find that he or she is still regarded as a temporary teacher.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Hon member, your time has expired.

Nkk J N VILAKAZI: Thina be-IFP sithi: phambili. Siyawesekela kakhulu. Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.] [We, the IFP, say: Forward. We support it wholeheartedly. Thank you. [Applause.]]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: May I just indicate that while we had the blackout we had a quick meeting with the Whippery, and agreed that we would cut the time of all speakers up to the last Order of the Day. So, as a speaker, the presiding officer will announce your updated time. We are still trying to make copies available to all members. Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Thank you, hon Chief Whip. I now call the hon Qikani to continue the debate, please. Yes, hon Mr Watson?

Mr A WATSON: Madam Chair, we are all confused. I request that you allow Mr Thetjeng to complete his speech, as was agreed.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): He had his time. When I called his name he wasn’t in the House. Thank you. May we now continue with Mrs Qikani.

Mrs A N D QIKANE: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members . . The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Order please! Yes, hon Chief Whip?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: With due respect, I am not disrespecting your ruling, I propose that as a courtesy - I know you are a very generous presiding officer - you allow Mr Thetjeng a minute to round off.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): I have already made my ruling, thank you, Chief Whip. We will . . . [Interjections.] . . . the debate. You may continue, hon member.

Mrs A N D QIKANE: The amending Bill before us addresses various matters such as the procedure for the appointment of educators and the procedure for the expulsion of people from school. These are important matters that time will not allow me to address, suffice to say that government has to tread very carefully and that there is a fair balance between the right of a school and those individual people or educators.

We need to express our reservations about the reduction of powers for governing bodies when it comes to the appointment of teachers. Democratic participation in schools through governing bodies is a valuable feature of our education dispensation.

However, by far the most important aspect of the Bill before us is the financial scheme being introduced to protect and promote the education of people from poor households. We therefore all agree that poverty should not be a barrier to public education since that would be an utter contradiction of our commitment. We all realise that poverty is a barrier to education.

Xa ndiza kuyeka Sihlalo, ndicinga ukuba thina bantu badala kufuneka siwunike umyalelo. Xa besilapha uye wabaleka umbane kusathetha uMnu Tethjeng. Loo nto ithetha ukuthi kukho okunye okungafanelekanga mhlawumbi ebekuthetha apha endlwini okanye mhlawumbi akafanelekanga ukuba abe ukule ndawo akuyo. Enkosi. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[In conclusion, Chairperson, I think we, the elderly, have to give an order. When we were here, there was a power failure whilst Mr Thetjeng was on the floor. That means he was saying something that was not good, or he is not supposed to be where he is. Thank you. [Applause.]]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Hon members, I am sure you are aware that revised time slots are being given to all the people who have come to speak. So when this little thing rings here, you must know that it is saying “Order!” on my behalf and that you must go back to your seat. It will remind you. Thank you.

Ms N NOEL (KwaZulu-Natal): Thank you, Chairperson. Greetings, hon Minister and my colleagues here, from a very wet but very upbeat KwaZulu-Natal. The KwaZulu-Natal education portfolio committee meticulously and responsibly studied the Education Laws Amendment Bill clause by clause. We were given a thorough briefing by the legal officer, and by Dr Lobiso, the CEO.

I have been mandated to report the following. This is the memorandum to all members of the National Council of Provinces matters standing committee from the acting chairperson, education portfolio committee on the Education Laws Amendment Bill:

Dear Chairperson and hon members, kindly be advised that the education portfolio committee of the KwaZulu-Natal legislature met earlier today on the 4th of November 2005 on determination of the final voting mandate in respect of the Education Laws Amendment Bill, B23D-2005. The following parties were present: ANC, IFP and DA. The ANC and the IFP approved and supported the Bill, but the DA opposed it.

That is no problem. They oppose everything as a matter of principle to justify their existence.

As the Bill enjoyed majority support, the decision of the committee was to support the Bill.

In terms of the National Council of Provinces we do have the vote for the KwaZulu-Natal legislature. The provincial standing committee on the National Council of Provinces matters met today and agreed to mandate the KwaZulu-Natal delegation to the National Council of Provinces to support the Education Laws Amendment Bill.

The delegation is further mandated to consider any additional amendments, providing that the amendments do not alter the essential elements of the Bill and that consensus is reached on the proposed amendments of the KwaZulu-Natal delegation. Well, as I am the only one here from Natal, there isn’t a problem.

I have also brought the memorandum of the decisions we have made and our interpretation of the Bill, but I won’t have time to read it with the cutting down of the times. I will leave this here to be tabled.

But three very important things came out that we approved of: firstly, scrapping school fees in poorer schools. This is a long overdue relief to poor parents, especially those who have more than one child at school; secondly, disciplinary matters: discipline can now be acted upon more speedily through clearly defined channels; and, thirdly, the clarification of the appointment of teachers is also very welcome. Regularising the temporary teacher situation is also long overdue and very welcome. I repeat: KwaZulu-Natal supports this Bill. Thank you. [Applause.] The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I now call the hon J O Tlhagale. [Interjections.] Oh, he is not here. I now call the hon Van Heerden. Twee minute, doktor. [Two minutes, doctor.]

Dr F J VAN HEERDEN: Chairperson, thee FF goes along with many of the positive things involved in this Bill, particularly the whole question of the no-fee threshold and also the question of the curtailment of the disciplinary proceedings by the governing body. We do support that. There are also some other elements that we can support. But we experience this as, again, curtailment of the powers of the governing bodies.

Mr Thetjeng also to referred to that, and because of that the FF unfortunately cannot, in spite of the positive elements in this legislation, support the Bill.

Ons sal dit helaas moet teenstaan. Baie interessant is ook dat dit lyk asof daar ‘n verdeling in ANC-geledere is, wat ons in hierdie debat ervaar het. [Unfortunately we shall have to oppose it. Interestingly enough there also appears to be a division in the ANC ranks, which we experienced in this debate.]

Mr Tolo said that the Department of Education must now appoint teachers, and not school governing bodies. Yes. But what did Ms Mazibuko say? She spoke, I think, Xhosa, but the translation goes as follows:

“Ouers moet deelneem om hulle kinders te leer.” Ouers moet deelneem om hulle kinders te leer. Dit strook met wat die VF Plus wil hê. Die VF Plus wil ook hê die ouers moet ook deelneem, en ons is dankbaar dat daar stemme soos me Mazibuko s’n in ANC-geledere opgaan wat ons en dan . . . Ek huiwer om my met die DA te assosieer, maar hulle het tog hier ook by monde van mnr Thetjeng dieselfde sentiment uitgespreek, naamlik dat die beheerliggame se magte nie geërodeer moet word nie, met dien verstande dat die beheerliggame se magte inderdaad uitgevoer word soos dit hier in klousule 7 uitgespel word met verwysing na artikel 6 van die wet. Daarmee kan ons akkoord gaan. Maar die VF Plus kan helaas as gevolg daarvan ongelukkig nie die wetsontwerp steun nie. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[“Parents should participate in the tuition of their children.” Parents should participate in the tuition of their children. That is in line with what the FF Plus wants. The FF Plus also wants the parents to participate as well, and we are grateful for the fact that voices such as that of Ms Mazibuko are being heard in the ranks of the ANC, and then . . . . I hesitate to associate myself with the DA, but they nevertheless also expressed the same sentiment here in the words of Mr Thetjeng, namely that the powers of the controlling bodies must not be eroded, provided that the powers of the controlling bodies are in fact carried out as set out here in clause 7 with reference to section 6 of the Act. We can agree with that. But, as a result, the FF Plus unfortunately cannot support the Bill. I thank you.]

Ms J WITBOOI (Western Cape): Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members, it is my honour and pleasure to rise in this House to indicate the Western Cape’s support of our government and Minister Naledi Pandor’s efforts in opening the doors of learning for all our children.

The Freedom Charter calls for the doors to open. And after 11 years of democracy, we must ask the question: How open are the doors really?

The DA and Ms Helen Zille have accused the Minister and the ANC government of wanting to take away the powers of school governing bodies because the government is power-hungry.

Me Zille is natuurlik die voormalige LUR vir onderwys in die Wes-Kaap, en baie onthou haar vir haar knap bestuursvernuf, maar ongelukkig het sy haar vernuf ingespan om net na die belange van welgestelde skole om te sien. [Tussenwerpsels.] Terwyl daar skole is wat transformasie heeltemal aan die boesem geneem het deur kinders van oorwegend bruin en swart agtergronde in te neem, en steeds goeie resultate lewer, is daar nog skole wat selektief te werk gaan onder die dekmantel van die handhawing van standaarde. Opvoeding is ‘n basiese mensereg wat beskikbaar behoort te wees aan alle kinders, nie net dié groep wat dit kan bekostig of wat akademies of andersins goed presteer nie. Ál ons openbare skole behoort aan ál ons gemeenskappe: bruin, wit en swart. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Ms Zille, of course, is the former MEC for education in the Western Cape, and many will remember her for her capable management ingenuity, but unfortunately she employed her ingenuity only to see to the interests of well-to-do schools. [Interjections.] While there are schools that have wholeheartedly embraced transformation by taking in children from predominantly coloured and black backgrounds and still produce good results, there are still schools that operate selectively under the pretext of maintaining standards. Education is a basic human right that should be available to all children, not only to the group that can afford it or that performs well academically or otherwise. All our public schools belong to all our communities: coloured, white, and black.]

I believe that the Education Laws Amendment Bill seeks to strike a balance between the rights of communities to have a say in the education of their children and the right of the employer to affirm its position and duty.

The proposed amendments are important for transformation and equity-redress purposes. And I do not believe that they will, as some in the opposition suggest, lead to the lowering of standards. The government cannot be merely a rubber stamp for preferred candidates of school governing bodies, some of whom are clearly very resourceful and creative in perpetuating inequality.

The DA’s suggestion that the powers of SGBs are being taken away is misplaced. The SGBs never had the power to appoint. They merely recommended to the heads of the department a preferred candidate. With the proposed amendments, a school governing body will now be asked to provide a shortlist of three candidates as opposed to one.

Ms Zille implies that because government wants to have a say in the recruitment of its employees, it will then follow that only black people will be appointed, which will automatically lead to the lowering of standards and destroy the education system. This smacks of racism! [Interjections.]

Ek wil minister Pandor ook prys vir haar waagmoed om stappe te doen om die armste gemeenskappe se skole vry te stel van skoolgeld. Veral vir die gemeenskap waaruit ek en baie ander van ons kom, sal dit soos manna uit die hemel wees. Die Wes-Kaap steun hierdie wetgewing. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[I would also like to praise Minister Pandor for her courage in taking steps to exempt schools in the most indigent communities from school fees. Especially for the community from which many of us, myself included, come, this will be like manna from heaven. The Western Cape supports this legislation. [Applause.]]

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Thank you, Chairperson, and thank you, hon Minister. We all know that our Minister was out of the country doing some very important work for us as South Africans, but that she made a point of being with us here today. Hon Minister, we appreciate your presence here with us today.

Let me just start with Mr Thetjeng. I have very little time. Mr Thetjeng made use of this particular podium to raise certain issues. We debated this Bill in our committee. I want the House to listen very carefully. At no stage did Mr Thetjeng say that he rejected this Bill, even Ms Lamoela for that matter. Not even once did they say that they were opposed to this Bill.

When we were busy with the negotiating mandate meetings, they were presenting the mandates of their provinces in that particular committee in support of this Bill. This is what they did at that level. [Interjections.]

Now, it is quite strange to find . . . [Interjections.] Am I protected, Chairperson?

Now, what I’m trying to illustrate to this august House is the double standards they have as the DA. We must be honest with ourselves. What is so interesting about this Bill is that when I did the briefing in my province in the Northern Cape, not a single member of the DA was present that day.

So, for them, this piece of legislation is not important. [Interjections.] It’s our duty and responsibility to convey these messages to our respective constituencies. They were not there. And for us, as the ANC, we say halalaa to this Bill, because it brings relief to the poor of the poorest. [Interjections.] We know the constituencies that we represent. We have very poor communities out there. They are not poor of their own making, but because of the previous regime. We have made an undertaking - we have signed a contract with our people - to say that we will uplift their standards and their way of life. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Order, hon member! Order! Ms Terblanche, I will not allow that type of heckling. Heckling is allowed in the House, but it must be orderly. Please continue, hon member.

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Thank you, Chairperson. They think they can destabilise me, but they won’t succeed. The fact of the matter is that they are opposed to transformation. That is the bottom line. The hon Thetjeng was saying that we are not interested in employing the best teachers, which is a lie. He is misleading this august House. He wants us to keep the status quo, where you have teachers that are lily-white, but the children are mixed. What is that? We cannot allow these things to happen in our country. We cannot allow these things to happen.

Be that as it may, I believe in four simple issues: the learners must learn, the educators must educate, the governing bodies must govern, and the employer must employ - and so shall it be. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Thank you, Chairperson. I shall direct the officials in the Education department to just get the hon Sulliman to repeat the last four lines and put it up somewhere in every school in the country: the teachers must teach, the learners must learn, the employer must employ. [Laughter.] [Interjections.] Exactly. That is right.

I think it is important for us to repeat that the Bill maintains the important and necessary improvements that we made early in our democracy. The democratisation of school governance arrived with the introduction of democracy in South Africa and not before, and we have maintained this.

The important role of school governing bodies in selecting quality candidates and recommending them for appointment to the provincial departments of education is maintained. I wish the hon members would listen, because I am responding to them. This partnership between school governing bodies - hon Thetjeng, hon Thetjeng - the departments of education and professional teachers is essential to providing quality education to our children. This is maintained in the Bill.

The change introduced by the Bill is that instead of recommending only one of the interviewed candidates, school governing bodies will be required to present three in order of preference. That is the change. This has been called the threat by hon Thetjeng and others to the powers of school governing bodies. It is not a threat. School governing bodies will continue to do what school governing bodies do the world over: short-list, interview, recommend.

The difference is that now the head of department as the employer will select the appointee from the list of three provided. Now the hon Thetjeng in his comments implied that the school governing body would provide three poor-quality candidates for the head of department to select from. The challenge that governing bodies face is to ensure that they attract quality candidates as a pool.

But I also think that part of what happens because we politicise educational matters is that we tend to have a blind side from which we view things. We don’t have a holistic perspective on the issues. As you have debated here, and even the hon member as he debated, you assumed that we were talking about a small proportion of the schools in our country. As Minister of Education I am talking of all the schools in our country. So the assumption that it is schools with a majority of white teachers that would have to change is an erroneous assumption because, again, you are blindsiding.

All our schools should have a diversity of employees in them. Our schools should have persons with disabilities employed if they are quality candidates for the particular posts. Our schools should have women employed if they are quality candidates for the particular posts. Our schools should have black candidates if they are quality candidates for the particular posts.

The notion that we are targeting a component of our society is a politicisation, which gives a wrong definition to what we are trying to achieve. I really urge hon members to see the entire sector and not a part of it. This business of viewing South Africa as a little clique rather that an entire country really narrows your perspective as to what we must achieve in education in South Africa. I resist that narrowing quite strongly.

Having said that, let me say to the hon members: I thank all of you for your participation in this debate. I would like to thank the hon chairperson of the select committee, since this is probably our last debate for the year, for the work that he has done and role that he has played in leading the select committee and especially the work on this Bill.

I also would like to particularly thank those provinces that really gave very serious attention to this legislation. I followed the debates in Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal and some in Limpopo. I missed a number of the other provinces, but I know that very serious attention has been given to this legislation and I was very excited by that.

I am glad that in the main there is support for the Bill. All that I can conclude from those who do not support this legislation is that, really, they failed to seize the moment. They failed to realise that when transformation faces them they should grab it with both hands in the interests of the people of our country.

To limit oneself merely to the issue of the appointment of teachers and not to look at the entire perspective of a fairly radical move to introduce free education for children in South Africa, I find quite an amazing stand to take. And to be seen as voting against such radical changes in education is an unfortunate stand indeed. I thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, Minister. I shall now put the question. The question is that the Bill be agreed to. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. Are you all present? Yes.

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces an opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. Is there any province that wishes to do so? None.

We shall now proceed to voting on the question. I will do so in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour of, against, or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Free State?

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN: Vrystaat steun. [Free State supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Gauteng?

Mr E M SOGONI: Siyavuma. [Supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI: KwaZulu-Natal supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Limpopo?

Ms H F MATLANYANE: Limpopo steun. [Limpopo supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mpumalanga?

Ms F NYANDA: Mpumalanga supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Northern Cape?

Mr C M GOEIEMAN: Noord-Kaap steun. [Northern Cape supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: North West in favour.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Western Cape?

Ms J WITBOOI (Western Cape): Wes-Kaap steun. [Western Cape supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Nine provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the Bill agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution. [Applause.]

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                        NATIONAL CREDIT BILL


            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Thank you very much, Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces and hon members. I do have great pleasure in presenting the National Credit Bill to the National Council of Provinces.

The passage of this Bill through Parliament must be seen as a victory for consumers and for the efforts of the government and its various tiers to build an economy that meets the needs of all economic citizens of South Africa.

This Bill is integral to our joint efforts to transform the economy from one that serves the needs of the wealthy and excludes the poor to one that harnesses the full potential of all the country’s people and resources.

Since 1994 the national government and the provincial governments have worked together closely to make a difference in the area of consumer protection, among other things. Together we have made great strides in ensuring widespread consumer education and effective complaint resolution. If this Bill is to have the desired impact, it is imperative that we continue our combined efforts in the areas of enforcement and consumer education.

It is for a very good reason that the Constitution provides that consumer protection is an area of concurrent jurisdiction. Many consumer abuses are perpetrated by businesses operating at a provincial or local level. Provincial governments and their consumer protection agencies are best placed to deal with these matters, given their proximity, knowledge of these businesses and ability to mediate between parties where necessary.

Furthermore, provinces have built up significant networks and relationships which assist them with promoting outreach to consumers and that the important messages regarding consumer protection are heard by all.

Provinces have been involved in the regulation of the credit market since 1994, foremost through the administration and enforcement of the Credit Agreements Act of 1980. Provinces and provincial legislatures are therefore fully appraised of the fact that the credit market that has developed over the past decade is inappropriate for the present economic and social context of South Africa.

It is a market that both reflects and reinforces existing disparities in South Africa and is characterised by lack of transparency, limited competition, high cost of credit and limited consumer protection. For all these reasons, it is imperative that we as government, collectively take proactive steps to regulate this industry, as represented in the National Credit Bill.

The National Credit Bill will replace the current Usury Act, the Credit Agreements Act and the Usury Act Exemption Notice, and will ensure a consistent approach to interest rate regulation and the limitation of arbitrage and circumvention. It will apply to all credit transactions and to all credit providers.

However, any regulation of the credit market must recognise that there are differences between a pawn transaction, a mortgage and a credit card or overdraft facility. These differences relate primarily to disclosure and the treatment of accounts and contracts. The Bill has several objectives: to address the historical legacy of systematic discrimination against the majority of the black population by improving and increasing access to credit at reasonable rates from reputable credit providers, and increasing the availability of alternative finance at reasonable cost for small enterprises and housing finance; to make the credit market function more cost-effectively and competitively by promoting a fair, competitive and sustainable credit market; to improve the understanding and knowledge of the market by informing and educating consumers to enable them to make better choices; to ensure that increased access to credit will not lead to overindebtedness; to ensure protection for consumers and secure redress for unacceptable practices; to ensure compliance with regulatory requirements; and to provide for the necessary co-operation between national and provincial government, as well as industry, consumers and protection agencies to ensure a coherent and integrated regulatory framework.

The National Credit Bill heralds a new era for consumers by entrenching and giving effect to a number of consumer rights, including protection against discrimination in credit granting; the right to reasons for credit being refused; the right to information in plain and understandable language; the right to have information acquired, held and reported by credit bureaux to meet national norms and standards, and to have records of debt adjustment expunged; and the right to have information held by credit bureaux and the National Credit Register, to be notified when prescribed adverse information is reported, to demand investigation of disputed information, and correction of erroneous information.

As a direct result of the discriminatory practices in a dysfunctional credit market and our history of economic and social oppression, many consumers were effectively locked out of the credit market.

Consequently, a number of community stakeholders called for the Bill to include a general amnesty for blacklisted consumers. In order to meet the calls, a process has been introduced into the Bill that will aim at ensuring that only correct information will be held with credit bureaux and will also result in the removal of certain information from the consumer credit records currently held by credit bureaux.

Thus, the Bill determines that the Minister of Trade and Industry must publish regulations prescribing the nature, timeframe, form and manner in which consumer credit information held by credit bureaux must be reviewed, verified or removed within a period of one year after the regulations are promulgated.

In addition, the Bill entitles the consumers to one free copy of their credit information records per year. Regulations will only be published after consultation with affected stakeholders, and due consideration of the predictive nature of certain types of consumer credit information and the socio-economic impact on consumers of the removal of such information.

The Bill provides for different institutions to ensure proper implementation of the provisions of this Bill. Since national government and provincial governments have concurrent jurisdiction with regard to consumer protection, co-operation and co-ordination between these levels of government are crucial to the success of the Bill. The Bill specifically provides for shared responsibility for education, dispute resolution, registration of credit providers and inspections. Until provincial legislation has been enacted in a province establishing, for that province, a provincial credit regulator as contemplated in the Bill, the Minister of Trade and Industry may delegate to the relevant MEC of the province all or any of the functions of the National Credit Regulator to be exercised within that province. It is envisaged that among these functions to be delegated will be the appointment of inspectors.

The National Credit Regulator and provincial consumer protection agencies will play a vital role in ensuring enforcement and promotion of access to redress at a provincial and local level, for without the required resources and mechanisms to enforce the provisions at all levels of government, this Bill will be ineffective and redundant. It is our responsibility to ensure that this does not happen.

In addition to a National Credit Regulator, which will be adequately resourced to ensure its ability to fulfil its mandate of registration of national credit providers, credit bureaux and debt councillors, the investigation of systemic market conduct problems and consumer education, a National Consumer Tribunal will be established.

The tribunal will adjudicate contraventions of the Bill and ensure quick and effective redress for consumers. The tribunal will deal primarily with administrative and disciplinary matters, as well as the prohibited activities of registered or unregistered entities. Tribunal decisions are subject to appeal or review by the High Court. The role of the ordinary courts is confirmed in the Bill in that the courts will hear matters related to, among other things, the interpretation of law and legal principles, the amendment or suspension of contracts, and the sanctioning of offences.

The Bill encourages the utilisation of alternative dispute resolution prior to going to court, as the latter course of action might be inaccessible, expensive and adversarial in nature. In addition, debt councillors will assist consumers to reorganise their debt and work on a financial plan that would suit both the consumer and his or her creditors. They will empower consumers by providing financial, debt and credit management skills.

Chairperson, may I conclude by expressing my appreciation for the manner in which the select committee conducted the deliberations on the National Credit Bill. The in-depth probing of all the issues by the respective provincial legislatures and by the Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs contributed significantly to a well-considered and balanced piece of legislation.

The manner in which the Bill was interrogated and the ensuing debate between the different arms of government illustrated the level to which our democracy has matured and reconfirmed the value of the constitutional principles of co-operative governance. The fact that such a wide range of stakeholders participated in the processes of engagement, led by the respective provincial legislatures, and the general support expressed for the Bill from across the board was heartening. It underlines the success of the thorough and widespread consultation process embarked upon by the Department of Trade and Industry.

This Bill will undoubtedly facilitate the creation of a fair, balanced and transparent credit market, which in turn will contribute towards a transformed and adaptive economy that is characterised by a higher level of economic growth that generates employment and reduces levels of inequalities.

I commend this Bill to the National Council of Provinces. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Ms N D NTWANAMBI: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, colleagues and comrades, for those of us who assisted with the Bill, we are happy to say: “At long last”. We say this because our people will now be able to exercise their minds, knowing what is right for them.

Manditsho kwangoku ukuba onke amaphondo ahambisana nawo lo Mthetho uYilwayo ngakumbi emva kwezihlomelo, ezingezininzi phofu, Mphathiswa, esiye sazenza njengoko uphantsi kwecandelo 76. [Minister, let me state that all provinces agree with this Bill, particularly after the few amendments made to section 76.] The Bill that we dealt with contains information for members seated here as well. You will now be able to know why credit was declined and be able to correct that. Let me say, though, that:

Asithi izikweliti zenu ziza kucima kodwa indlela yokuhlawula amatyala iza kuba yindlela elungelelanisiweyo ukuze nawe ukwazi ukuhlawula amatyala akho. Lo Mthetho uYilwayo ukwalungiselela ukuba isileyiti sakho sicoceke, uqale ngokutsha, ukwazi nokuzikhupha koomatshonisa. Siyazi ukuba abantu baboleka apha beza kuhlawula phaya. Ngaloo ndlela umntu uphela ebolile ngamatyala oomatshonisa.

Lo Mthetho uYilwayo ulungiselela ukuba kungabikho mkhethe kananjalo uphucula namathuba okuqala amatyala. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[We are not saying that the Bill will write off debts, but it will help to pay off existing debts. This Bill will help in paying off the existing debts and to start anew. People would be able to free themselves from cash loans. We understand that people have a tendency to borrow money to pay off existing debts. This creates a vicious cycle and people end up owing cash sharks huge sums of money.

This Bill eradicates discrimination and prepares a level playing field with regard to credit prospects.]

One of the best aspects of the Bill is the fact that it will not legalise door-to-door sales of credit.

Akukho mntu uza kuhamba ebuza ukuba: Uyafuna na ukuvula ityala apha? Singakuboleka imali enga. [There is no one who would ask: Do you want to open an account? We can give you this much.]

Also, the purpose of the Bill is to promote and advance the social and economic welfare of all South Africans in a fair, transparent and efficient manner.

Also contained in the Bill is that a credit agreement is not allowed if the consumer is a minor or mentally unfit. When you move around all the paypoints you will always see that there are people who are waiting for all those people – “mashonisas” [moneylenders], burial societies and all those.

Consumers will be educated about credit and their rights, and they will be provided with protection from deception, unfair or fraudulent conduct by credit providers and the credit bureaux.

Other members will deal with what the Bill seeks to achieve, but I want to ask our provinces, when this Bill has been signed into law, that more road shows and public education be done so that the majority of those this Bill wants to assist are informed.

Ngelishwa ke, Phathiswa, lo Mthetho uYilwayo awuthethi nto ngemigalelo noomasingcwabane. Apha phandle siyafa ngabantu abaziimbulu abathi hlamba uwavile. Bendingathanda ke, Mphathiswa, ukuba ngenye imini uyijonge le ndawo. Yenye yeendlela abantu abenza ngazo ookopolotyeni babo nakubeni ingengabo zisemthethweni.

Xa ndigqibezele, Mphathiswa, ndifuna ukuthi, eyona nto ibalulekileyo yeyokuba umntu ngoku unelungelo yaye ukhuselekile ukuba xa ethe akaneliseka yinto abeyithengile, angayiphindisa, ubuyekezwe imali yakho futhi ungahlawuliswa. Njengabantu abamele abantu, masiye kubo sibaxelele ukuba lo Mthetho uYilwayo uza njani nemeko yokuphucula ubomi babantu nanjengoko sisazi ukuba apha kwa-ANC sinesivumelwano nabantu. Enkosi, Sihlalo. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[Unfortunately, Minister, this Bill does not include social clubs and burial societies. This world is full of scoundrels who mislead people. I would like the Minister to look at this matter in future. This is another way in which people establish illegal corporations.

Finally, Minister, I want to say what is important is that everyone knows his or her rights and get protection against deception. When a customer is not satisfied with a product, he or she has a right to exchange it and get a refund without being charged. As people’s representatives, let us go back to the people and explain how this Bill is going to improve their lives, that is the accord between them and the ANC. Thank you, Chairperson.]

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: Hon Chairperson, the DA believes that although the intention of this Bill is admirable, this legislation could plunge the country’s credit market into something along the lines of what we have in labour: creating an overcomplicated, interventionist, bureaucratic institution.

While we support the Bill, we do so subject to monitoring its effects very closely and sounding a warning about its unintended consequences. We intend to move for amendments the moment the problems we have predicted will be caused by the Bill begin to manifest themselves. Perhaps then the government will be more open to listening to our proposals.

Our most fundamental point is that the Bill substantially increases the risk involved in granting credit by taking away lenders’ ability to discern who will and who will not be likely to default. The only thing possible lenders will have to go on to secure their business will be the collateral owned by possible borrowers. This will push up the cost to compensate for risk and will also raise the margin below which people are unable to access credit lawfully. Those who need loans the most are often people without much collateral. These people will be hit the hardest.

In other words, many people who are creditworthy now will no longer be, ie the middle and lower-income earners, people with the slightest default record and people without positive credit histories. These people, together with SMMEs as credit providers and receivers, risk being disadvantaged by this Bill.

In a word, our concern centres on the fact that the intended beneficiaries of this Bill could end up being its unintended victims. As it stands now, tens of thousands of SMMEs will be criminalised at the stroke of the statutory pen, and millions of credit seekers will be driven from comfort to underground sources of credit or none at all, and will be substantially worse off.

The supposed case for regulation is made out in voluminous documents proposed by the Department of Trade and Industry’s technical committee, which are littered with unfounded assertions that there is a dysfunctional market. Nowhere is a functional one defined and nowhere is the basis for calling it dysfunctional explained.

It asserts, without evidence, that the cost of credit is too high, without explaining what it should be or by what criteria the cost should be established. In short, the Bill contains little that will reduce the cost of credit and much that will increase it.

One of the core purposes of the Bill in its special section on its objectives “is to increase access to credit for historically disadvantaged people and SMMEs”, yet there is not a single provision which could possibly have this effect, and, again, almost every clause is likely to have the opposite effect.

There is no rational connection between the Bill’s objectives and its provisions. The provisions made for reckless credit are open to abuse. We are pleased to note that the Bill now allows the courts to mitigate this potential area of concern.

Expunging of risk prediction data is likely to hurt the diligent poor. We have noted that credit bureaux should not be held liable for verifying all pieces of information they keep, especially considering the fact that information is reported to them from retailers, lenders, banks and a wide variety of third parties. The cost of verifying millions upon millions of pieces of information is prohibitively high. However, upon request by the consumer, credit bureaux should be required to take reasonable steps.

The Bill allows the National Credit Regulator the right to refuse businesses’ legal recognition as registered credit providers on the basis of inadequate commitments to BEE. The DA believes that this is a particularly harsh, strident application of BEE and that the National Credit Bill is not the right place to create this kind of legal provision.

The regulator could conceivably make use of its powers to prevent a family business from selling on account if it believes that the business does not show any commitment to black economic empowerment. In the case of small businesses that are heavily dependent on amount-based sales, such as pharmacies, this could effectively give the credit regulator the power to put people out of business by the back door. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr M J SIBIYA: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, comrades, colleagues, ladies and gentleman, it’s a pity that in this House there are hon members who try to defend the indefensible. They use an argument that makes them look like people who belong to a political party which, at best, by South African political standards, can be referred to as an undemocratic misalliance. Such a party does not exist in this country. Perhaps when one starts it they would best belong there.

The Bill under discussion today is one of the milestones in the transformation struggle by the ANC-led government. Its importance is underlined by its key objectives, given as follows: one, to promote and enhance consumer protection; two, to promote competition and transparency; and three, to control overindebtedness and reckless lending.

The Bill is not only important but also significant and crucial in that it also contains consumer rights, and it imposes requirements, criteria, conditions and the procedure of registration in the consumer credit industry. It will also go a long way to alleviate the humiliation and frustration suffered by people within the low-income bracket, for it will protect them against discrimination, and, in the event of applicants from such a bracket being refused credit, reasons for such a refusal will have to be given.

To me, giving refusal reasons presupposes that the applicant can analyse, comment on or even challenge some of these. The right to information in a plain and understandable official language is one of the most significant aspects of the Bill in that applicants from all walks of life will have access to all implications and costs, including the hidden ones by having them revealed.

Let me indicate one of the things I have personally come across in terms of hidden costs. You go to the mashonisa and you borrow R100. They tell you your interest is 30% and your instalment perhaps is say R10 per month. They will charge you 30% of that R100 that you borrowed, which means your principal debt now becomes R130. When the next month comes, they deduct R10. You remain R120 in debt, but they still charge you 30% of that R120, and this time your principal debt becomes R136. At the end of four months you find yourself having paid interest of 120%. This kind of information, owing to this Bill, will have to be revealed. Thank you, Minister of Trade and Industry. This is very good work that’s being done and we will support you. [Applause.] The government, through the DTI, by introducing this Bill, is also enhancing one of the critical provisions of the people’s charter, which says, in part: “All shall be equal before the law.” I say this, because in my view and in the view of reasonable and democratically minded persons, I suppose, it is only those who are equal before the economy who can be equal before the law. The impositions contained in the Bill are a stern warning to the unscrupulous rampant loan sharks that their ripping off of the poor and the ordinary is definitely approaching its cul-de-sac.

The ANC-led government has committed itself to reducing poverty by half by

1. Although money-lending institutions are not necessarily the cause of poverty, clipping their wings through this Bill, as I see envisaged, will definitely relieve the burden carried by the poor in servicing their debts, especially if these had been defaulted on.

The demand in the Bill that moneylenders have credit bureau information subjected to review, corrections, recording and removal within a specific period, as outlined in chapter 4, part B, subitem 71, is one of the most important psychological benefits . . .

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Your speaking time has expired, hon member.

Mr M J SIBIYA: In conclusion, the ANC unreservedly supports the Bill and urges this House to do the same.

Dames en here, dit sal definitief waardeer word . . . [Ladies and gentlemen, it would definitely be appreciated . . . ]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Your time has expired, hon member. [Laughter.] [Applause.]

Ms A N T MCHUNU: Hon Minister, thank you very much, through the Chairperson, for the elaborate debate on this Bill. Economic oppression is worse than any form of oppression, because there is no ducking and diving if one cannot improve his or her economic status. Here I refer to a healthy economic state not motivated by greed or opulence.

Economic transformation requires one to have access to consumer credit, but it should be well controlled and managed. The Bill desires to do just that, but this has to go with a lot of education on how to budget and identify items to source credit.

With regard to discrimination, coming from urban Bantustans, those are townships, or rural Bantustans, those are rescued areas that meant that the only people who could access credit were those who were considered to be of a better standing. There was always the question of how you were going to pay back that credit, and some shops had better quality clothing which was viewed as being affordable to certain people from certain areas or from certain classes. Now people from all sorts of areas can be taught about credit access, control and management, because it’s not so easy to source credit through property, cattle or goats, because that is controlled by the family.

The question of cash means that your money is yours, and you find yourself getting credit because you say: “I’ve got money in the bank or in my pocket.” Education will prevent overaccessing credit to the degree of becoming insolvent. This Bill, then, is going to be a wake-up call for us all who are wooed into debt simply because credit is offered. As citizens we have to be trusted to honour our promises to pay, but it’s not easy.

Education, education, education all the way will be appreciated so that the very small print, which is not usually read, can be removed from our credit agreements. Then our people will not be listed by the credit bureaux.

The IFP supports the Bill, and I thank you again. [Applause.]

Ms M P THEMBA: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, we have made great strides in transforming the economy from one that served the wealthy and excluded the poor to one that harnesses the full potential of all our citizens and resources.

The National Credit Bill sets out to redress the historical legacy of systematic discrimination against the majority of the black population by improving and increasing access to credit at reasonable rates from reputable credit providers. It increases the availability of alternative finance at reasonable cost for small enterprises and housing finance. It is a great pleasure to note that our government has indeed stepped in with this powerful piece of legislation to protect consumers. South African consumers are now looking forward to a single law that will cover all credit transactions.

I would like to remind the House that especially the women of this country will benefit from this Bill, as you are aware that the ANC-led government has addressed all major policy issues to accommodate women. The barriers we were facing as women were complex and structural. Women are very happy today that this Bill aims to safeguard citizens from unfair and deceptive practices in the credit industry, and to empower people to make informed decisions.

We are really pleased that it introduces mechanisms for coping with too much debt, for prohibiting the reckless granting of credit, and that it creates a new regulator and dispute resolution body, because we were the most affected.

Everybody has a right to apply for credit without being discriminated against. However, this does not mean that people cannot be refused credit. The Bill gives credit providers the right to refuse to extend credit to people on reasonable commercial grounds, in line with customary rights and underwriting practices. Therefore it would not be illegal for a bank to refuse to grant you a home loan if the bank’s assessment is that you cannot afford it.

Our people are going to benefit from this legislation as it also ensures the protection of consumers and secure redress for unacceptable practices.

As a direct result of the discriminatory practices employed by credit bureaux and as a result of the dysfunctional credit market, many consumers were effectively locked out of the credit market. As a result, a number of community stakeholders during public hearings called for the Bill to include a general amnesty for blacklisted consumers.

After careful consideration it was decided to provide for a data verification process and for the removal of certain types of information from the consumer credit records currently held by credit bureaux. The Bill entitles consumers to one free copy of their credit information records per year.

Once again it is a relief for women, especially those in the rural areas, to note that clause 63(1) talks about the right to receive information in our own official languages, because we as women we were previously disadvantaged. This Bill will undoubtedly facilitate the creation of a fair, balanced and transparent credit market, which, in turn, will contribute towards a transformed and adaptive economy, an economy that is characterised by a higher . . . [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr G SNELL (Eastern Cape): Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, members of the NCOP, I bring warm words of greeting from the Eastern Cape. The committee that deals with economic affairs, the environment and tourism met on numerous occasions to consider the Bill. The committee in its entirety agreed that the principles contained in the Bill were principles that we sought to uphold, and we therefore agreed that we would support the Bill.

Amongst these principles are those of stopping the unsolicited forwarding of credit to members of the public; an interest rate that would not prejudice the poor against that of the rich; looking at repossessions linked to reckless credit granting; and ensuring that the poor, who are the most vulnerable, and those that are the most vulnerable when it comes to being employed in positions from which they can be retrenched at any moment, do not become locked into credit and reported to credit bureaux and for the rest of their lives are discriminated against when it comes to getting access to credit.

This Bill should not be seen in isolation from government’s efforts to reform the economy and to ensure that we level the playing fields between the first and second economies, and for that, Minister, we wish to thank you from the Eastern Cape.

The Eastern Cape also realised the importance of the content of Bill, and the positive impact it will have on the lives of the people of the province, the vast majority of whom felt first-hand the pain that was caused by the previous regime when it came to credit granting.

It was decided to hold a workshop on the Bill for all members of the legislature and for the various stakeholders within the province. This workshop was incredibly successful and well attended. The portfolio committee embarked on public hearings throughout the province that were well attended. Varied and vast inputs came from members of the community. The committee considered these inputs, along with the technical aspects that were of concern to us, and submitted these to this portfolio committee in our negotiating mandate.

One of the primary concerns that was raised in the public hearings pertained to the role of national and provincial regulators. The existence of provincial regulators may create problems as each may prescribe certain norms and standards for the province, and this may be undesirable and confusing for people operating in various provinces. This particularly came from areas where the cross-boundaries are being dealt with at the moment - in KwaZulu-Natal there was no consumer protector and in the Eastern Cape there was. If people have to buy in Kokstad, for example, and then come back to the Eastern Cape and something goes wrong with their product, what recourse have they got?

Notwithstanding the provisions of clause 16, it was proposed that the Bill must provide for the establishment of a dedicated consumer education advice and information service. This would also ease pressure from the National Credit Regulator and would ensure that consumers are more informed, as this institution would be dedicated to this purpose only. Alternatively, it was proposed that the national consumer advice . . . [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr N D HENDRICKSE: Hon Chair, hon Minister, hon members, the National Credit Bill will go a long way to protect uninformed consumers from the bad practices in the debt recovery and credit management sector.

The UIF believes that the amnesty of credit for blacklisted consumers is justified so that we can bring these marginalised workers back into the mainstream of the economy. Although their names will be erased from the credit bureau, their obligation to settle debts will remain.

Whilst we understand the important information, collection, research and analysis role of credit bureaux, the methods employed are sometimes questionable. Not having to pay for your own credit profile is positive.

Many consumers will battle trying to delist, owing to errors and when debts have been settled. To remove your name via legal processes from credit bureaux is, in most cases, a costly exercise. Hence, the establishment of the National Credit Regulator, which will oversee these bureaux, is necessary, given their unscrupulous practices.

Linked to the above are debt administrators and debt councillors. These entities and persons, in many instances, instead of assisting debt-trapped clients, put them into further predicaments, either by not paying moneys collected to creditors or charging excessive administration fees.

Credit insurance is not marketed enough and should be a compulsory part of the signing of a credit agreement, as it protects first of all the consumer in the event of unemployment and the seller. This is standard practice with bond applications and must be extended to smaller transactions.

The national register of credit agreements is a key monitoring tool to oversee the level of indebtedness, which is often related to reckless credit provision, irrespective of whether higher interest rates are charged. Fines should be imposed on reckless credit providers, as they further entrench the poverty of consumers, many of whom fall into a debt trap.

The UIF supports this Bill. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr Y GABRU (Western Cape): Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, it’s a great pleasure for me to participate in this debate this afternoon.

In my constituency office a stream of people come in every day who have had some debt they have been unable to pay and whose debt has then been handed over to a debt collector. What I have in front of me here is a very typical example of that: the African Bank Limited handed over to an attorney an unpaid amount of R2 200. Nineteen months later, despite the fact that R4 000 had been paid, there was still a balance of about R3 000. Let me just repeat the facts very quickly: it was an outstanding amount of R2 000; two years later, after R4 000 had been paid, there was still a balance of R3

1. I can go on and on and give you a whole host of these examples, as I am sure everybody who has a constituency office can do.

There was some question about whether there is a dysfunctional market out there. If that isn’t an example of a dysfunctional market, then I am not sure what is. We all know that these things happen, yet they continue to happen over and over again. It seems to me that the reasons for this – and members have made reference to them over and over again - are quite clearly, in this case, to do with the whole question of unscrupulous debt collectors and reckless credit providers. But it needs to be said that this also has to do with the irresponsible behaviour of consumers.

It seems to me that one of the things that we will all profit from is if the National Credit Regulator, which has to, according to its mandate, embark on a programme of educating consumers.

I especially want to mention the question of funerals in some of our communities. When there is a funeral, many of the people in our community go to huge and unnecessary expense, and land up with a huge amount of debt. I read recently that there were some people in my constituency who were taking out huge loans to pay for their children’s matric balls.

I think and I am hoping that one of the things the national regulator will do is to go on this campaign to educate people about dealing with credit in a sensible way.

The other issue in my constituency office that I have to deal with over and over again are small businesses not being able to get credit. That has been mentioned here over and over again. In the Western Cape portfolio committee we are absolutely convinced that this piece of legislation, which has been extremely well prepared and is very well researched, will go a long way towards resolving a large number of problems that we are confronted with in our constituency offices on a daily basis.

We unreservedly support the Bill. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Mr D D GAMEDE: Chairperson, hon Ministers present and hon members, let me start with first things first and say that we as the ANC support this Bill. Secondly, I even heard in the last debate that some members of certain parties do certain things that are morally wrong and that are, to a certain extent, impractical.

The hon Terblanche won’t attend these meetings. [Interjections.] If she attends the meetings, she doesn’t contribute. If she contributes it is only to say things to protect the few. It’s morally wrong then for hon Terblanche to come to debate here, because she has not engaged with the department on this Bill, and she would have had all the clarification had she attended the meetings. She would have been empowered quite a lot. [Interjections.]

I will base my debate on consumer credit agreements, collection . . . [Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, our Rules protect the speaker and do not allow any other member to interrupt whilst the speaker is speaking. And within these 16 days of activism, I take this very seriously because this is discrimination in terms of the integrity of Mr Gamede.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mr Gamede, can you proceed with your speech.

Mr D D GAMEDE: Thanks, hon Chair. It’s just to warn even the hon Minister of Trade and Industry, because the one party is good at opposing. They’11 oppose even if you cough. You must be prewarned. [Laughter.]

I will base my debate on consumer credit agreements, collection, repayments, surrender and debt enforcement. The Bill now provides in clause 90 that a credit agreement must not contain unlawful provisions. Furthermore, clause 92(1) provides that a credit provider must not enter into a small credit agreement unless the credit provider has given the consumer a preagreement statement and quotation.

There are also provisions for prohibited charges that are covered by clause

1. For example, a credit provider cannot charge interest that would be above or more than the capital amount.

As mentioned earlier on, a National Credit Regulator is being established in clause 12 which would look at the maximum rates of interest, fees and charges. This is also found in clause 105. Clause 106 provides for credit insurance. However, there must be optional insurance.

An example given in our deliberations, and the hon Thetjeng was not at the meeting, was of a lady - hon Terblanche! – who borrowed R50 000. She heard it and then she left the meeting. She borrowed R50 000 and was forced to take insurance cover for R250 000, and for three years she serviced the debt. After three years she lost her job, and then couldn’t service the debt. When she died it was found that she owed more than R250 000.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon Terblanche, I really need to bring it to your attention that you and your party are the ones that accuse presiding officers of biased rulings. But you have proven yourself to be the champion of disrupting other people when they are speaking. I really plead with you, irrespective of how you feel about what somebody is saying, that you listen. You have been persistently . . . I waived my ruling. The Chief Whip made a point of order. You have been consistently disrupting the speaker as he was speaking. Thank you. You can proceed, hon member.

Mr A WATSON: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: What is your point of order?

Mr A WATSON: My point of order is that my member has been chastised whilst the hon member in front turns around to start arguments, but only Ms Terblanche is attacked by both you and the Chief Whip. I don’t think that is fair. I think you should attack those who are causing the problem.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Would you take your seat, Mr Watson you are extremely out of order. [Interjections.] I am not aware of that. You could have brought that to my attention. Terblanche, I’ll . . .

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: Hon Terblanche.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: . . . I’ll order you out of the House. You continue with that and I’ll order you out of the House. Proceed, hon Gamede.

Mr D D GAMEDE: Thanks, hon Chair. This is always what happens when there is one senior hon member of the DA in the House. I hope they want to impress him. [Laughter.] [Applause.]

After three years it was found that the lady owed more than what the capital amount was originally. Now, in terms of the provision for the consumer and the right to settle the agreement and thus reduce the principal debt, clause 126 provides that a consumer may surrender goods by giving written notice to the provider to terminate the agreement. Clause 129 provides that if the consumer is in default, the provider may propose that the consumer discuss with the debt councillor or with the dispute resolution . . .

The ANC supports this Bill. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Thank you very much, Chair, and thanks to all the members who participated in this very important debate. We would like to thank you for the overwhelming support that we have received for this groundbreaking piece of legislation, really.

There are particular matters that have been raised, such as the matter of consumer education which is a very important part of an overall effort to strengthen consumer rights in South Africa in the hope of promoting the development of a consumer movement in South Africa.

The measures that are being taken are not just what are in this particular Bill. Next year we are going to introduce the National Consumer Bill. You would know that we have developed a consumer policy that develops a set of standards for the kind of service we need to give to consumers by both private and public sector institutions.

Other measures that are also aimed at protecting consumers reside with the National Treasury. There is a series of pieces of legislation there that relate to insurance and a whole range of others. All of these are aimed at protecting consumers. Therefore, we will come up with more comprehensive consumer legislation that will deal much more comprehensively with issues of consumer education.

Also, we think that in doing this we should not only be looking at creating new institutions, but that we must also be looking at working with existing institutions – nongovernmental organisations, churches, local government, provincial government and so on - so that we can really have a seamless system that ensures that the issues of consumer rights, consumer education and consumer protection are at the forefront at all times.

Let me also pick up on a few other matters that have been raised. Hon Ntwanambi, regarding the point you raised about stokvels and imigalelwano and so on: those matters are not being dealt with in the context of this particular Bill, because this is a Bill that is aimed at regulating the credit market - establishing a fair, equitable and sustainable credit market in South Africa.

But we are also doing other work, both ourselves as well as the National Treasury. We have introduced the co-ops legislation, which has been adopted by Parliament. The Department of Finance has also introduced the Financial Co-operatives Bill and a dedicated banks Bill.

So, those are some of the pieces of legislation in the context of which we can deal with issues such as how we enable stokvels and imigalelwano that are actually able to generate a lot of resources in the townships as well as in the rural areas. How do we enable them so that they don’t necessarily have to depend only on the existing mainstream banks? This is because that undermines the whole purpose of their effort in trying to generate savings.

Hon Terblanche, I’m not quite sure what you were trying to do, because this legislation aims to make sure that we can correct a massively distorted credit market that exists in South Africa. And I don’t think we can build prosperity on the basis of a credit market such as the one that exists in South Africa today.

Let me just recap some of the features of the credit market as it exists in South Africa today. Sixty-seven percent of the population receives less than 6% of credit extended – 67% of the population! - 22% of SMMEs receive financing, and only 7% from banks. The lowest income group faces the highest costs when they borrow money. And you have a credit market that is effectively split between the superincluded and the superexcluded.

These are the distortions that we are trying to correct. There is also a variety of excesses in this credit market. There is reckless lending. I don’t think that you can deny that there is reckless lending. We have to deal with this phenomenon of reckless lending. We have to deal with consumer abuses where these credit providers, in order to put themselves at the frontline in terms of being paid, do things which really amount to abuse.

So we can’t just sit idly by and allow such abuse to happen. There is a series of abuse that happen, and the objectives of this particular Bill – again, just to recap - is to promote competition and transparency by treating all credit transactions equally while recognising different market segments, to provide all consumers and some businesses with equal rights and outline rules of conduct, to provide measures for overindebted consumers and reckless credit extension, to provide for a central register of consumer debt obligations, and to create a scheme for the regulation of credit providers, debt councillors and credit bureaux.

Therefore, we seek, through this particular piece of legislation, to correct those distortions and also to create a balance between the explicit rights that consumers have as well as the responsibilities that they have, because when you are seeking credit you also have a responsibility to provide the correct information to the credit provider. Therefore, this is not only about protecting the consumer, but also about imposing certain obligations on the part of consumers themselves.

I think that if one were to just look at the recent history of South Africa, one would find that the success and the rise, for instance, of the Afrikaner community was not built on this type of credit market, but on the basis of sound institutions, and sustainable and affordable credit. That’s part of what underpinned the rise, the growth and the success of the Afrikaner community in South Africa, and we must not forget some of those experiences.

Therefore, some of the practices in South Africa today drive people deeper into poverty. We cannot hope to achieve prosperity on the basis of a credit market that drives people deeper into poverty. Because people find themselves in those situations and because the credit is so expensive, they are effectively locked out of affordable credit.

Somebody here did actually say that people borrow here in order to pay there. People find themselves in a vicious cycle. You are not supporting development; you are not promoting prosperity by doing that. You are tying people into knots and driving them deeper into poverty. We have to be aware of these things.

So, we are very mindful of the need to achieve a good balance between the regulations that we seek to introduce as well as promoting efficiency of the credit market.

I do really want to thank members for participating in the debate and for their support. Again, it’s important to emphasise that this is about the rights of consumers; it’s about the responsibilities of consumers; it’s about access; it’s about broadening participation. But it is also about ensuring that our institutions also do the things that will make access to credit much easier for ordinary people. If I walk into a bank, I want to have the confidence that there is somebody who can speak my language, who can understand what my needs are, and who can understand what my circumstances are. And that leads to sustainable lending, because by the time we sign on the dotted line, I understand what obligations I’m taking upon myself. And the credit provider also understands what level of credit I am able to sustain as an individual because they understand my personal circumstances.

So, our financial institutions must deal with the soft issues – the cultural issues, the issues of ensuring that your frontline staff are such that you are able to meet the needs of all South Africans across the spectrum.

Chairperson, let me thank you very much. I see that I’ve run out of time. Thank you. [Applause.] Debate concluded.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I shall now put the question. The question is that the Bill be agreed to. As the question is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes.

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces an opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. Is there any province that wants to make a declaration of vote? None.

We shall now proceed to voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour of, or against, or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN: Steun. [Supports.]

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Gauteng?

Mr E M SOGONI: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI: KwaZulu-Natal elethu. [KwaZulu-Natal supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Limpopo?

Ms H F MATLANYANE: Limpopo steun. [Limpopo supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga?

Ms F NYANDA: Mpumalanga in favour.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Northern Cape?

Mr C M GOEIEMAN: Noord-Kaap steun. [Northern Cape supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: North West ke ya rona. [North West supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape?

Mr Y GABRU: Western Cape supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: All nine provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the Bill agreed to in terms of section 65 of the Constitution.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Minister of Trade and Industry, we would like to take this opportunity to thank you for the kind of support you have consistently provided to the National Council of Provinces, and we hope that you are going to continue to do so in future.

                    FORESTRY LAWS AMENDMENT BILL


            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

Ms H F MATLANYANE: Chairperson, this Bill authorises the Minister to establish a trust in respect of state forests under certain circumstances, to enable the Minister to pay lease money in respect of such state forests into a trust account, and to provide for such money to be paid to certain beneficiaries.

From the above, it is clear that the Minister, as the political accounting officer for our constituency, is able to respond to the needs and demands of societies. Arising from the above, it became evident that this lease money may eventually have to be paid over to successful claimants of rights in state forests as this need has arisen for the state to keep such money in a trust account. Also the need exists for the state to continue to receive and pay out lease money on behalf of some successful claimants by means of a trust.

This demonstrates that this ANC-led government is the government of the people and that it knows the interests of the people. Some processes, which were more administrative, delayed the implementation of the progressive policies. Hence it became imperative for us to manage some processes politically.

To transform this country to a democratic one that accommodates all South Africans and not the few as it used to, we need to change all policies that are stumbling blocks to the delivery of services to our people. We, as the ANC, are making a difference to ordinary people. We are the government of the people. Hence we are implementing what the people want.

The purpose of this Bill is to clean up existing legislation within the administrative competence of the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry. As this Bill does not have social and financial implications, it is more convincing for the House to support this Bill. It addresses the past imbalances created by the apartheid regime. We are committed to pushing back the frontiers of poverty and to implementing the people’s contract of creating jobs. The previous forestry policies failed to reflect the value of the resources, particularly the woodlands, and service provision was previously limited to preserving closed canopy forests.

This Bill therefore seeks to redress these past imbalances. We are rewriting history, and it is a long walk to freedom. We will be judged on whether we achieve our mandate through the implementation of these progressive policies.

It is imperative for us, as we pass these laws in this Parliament, to have time to evaluate the impact these laws are having on society. If needs be, we must repeal them, so let’s do so for the benefit of the country.

This move will enable people to participate in the economy they have been denied participation in many years ago. This will also have a positive spin- off for the country, as these communities will be producing entrepreneurs in the mainstream economy. The establishment of a trust also releases the officials to focus more on service delivery, rather than being busy on the administration of the trust.

Both the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry and the Department of Land Affairs will co-operate in making service delivery fast and efficient. The Ingonyama Trust, which suffered as it did not have access to money and only managed the land, will benefit by the introduction of this Bill. In addressing the past imbalances and the legacy of apartheid, it is imperative for us to encourage the structures that are dealing with land restitution to be more democratic and transparent in their approach. The institutions keeping finances of the beneficiaries must be accountable, and the communities themselves must know how to deal with such structures. I thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Thank you, hon member. I shall now put the question. The question is that the Bill be agreed to. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present to cast their provinces’ votes.

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces an opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. Is there any province wishing to make a declaration? None.

We shall now proceed to voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour of, against, or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Gauteng?

Mr E M SOGONI: Siyavuma. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI: In favour.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Limpopo?

Ms H F MATLANYANE: Limpopo votes in favour.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga?

Ms F NYANDA: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Northern Cape?

Mr C M GOEIEMAN: Noord-Kaap steun. [Northern Cape supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

MR Z S KOLWENI: Steun. [Supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape?

Mr Y GABRU: Wes-Kaap steun. [Western Cape supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: All nine provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the Bill agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                   ADJUSTMENTS APPROPRIATION BILL

                (Consideration of Votes and Schedule)

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Before I call the first speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to acknowledge the presence of the Deputy Minister of Finance, the hon J Moleketi, who is in our midst this afternoon as we deal with this important discussion and debate. You are acknowledged, hon Deputy Minister.

Mr T S RALANE: Deputy Chair of Committees, Deputy Minister, I propose that the House adopts the Adjustments Appropriation Bill. Thank you. [Applause.] Debate concluded.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: That concludes the debate. Hon members have been informed that there will be no questions asked of the Minister or Deputy Minister. On the basis of that, I shall now put the Votes in the order in which they appear on the Schedule to the Bill.

Vote No 1 - The Presidency - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Mr A WATSON: Chair, we do not have the privilege of the screens and the lists of Votes. So would you please also name the Votes and not just the numbers, if you can?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Certainly. Thanks for that. I think the staff are busy addressing that problem, because we had an unexpected disruption, an electrical disruption. So the staff are attending to that accordingly.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, it is true. Not all of us have the Schedule, but all the party Whips do have the Schedule. So there is no party that can claim that they do not have the Schedule. Secondly, all provincial Whips do have the Schedule. I think we should just request the other members to bear with us for the purpose of smooth sailing, in terms of this, because it is only a party that can object. The party Whip is responsible, as a leader in that particular party, and has been empowered with a copy as such. We hope copies will be coming in the meantime. I see the hon Watson is seated next to the hon Terblanche. I think, in the spirit that the people shall share – although their party does not believe in that - we request that you learn from the ANC and share.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon members, we will proceed with the business of the day as if nothing had happened. We don’t have control over the electrical disruptions and, I think, the issue of availability of these papers should be addressed as we proceed. I think the explanation . . .

Mr A WATSON: May I just address you?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Are you interrupting my ruling?

Mr A WATSON: No, I’m not.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Take your seat first. Who should talk first, you or me? I’m saying that we are going to proceed, because the electrical disruptions were not of our creation, and we did not anticipate them. The explanation by the Chief Whip is sufficient. Whilst we are proceeding, the staff will circulate all these documents that will assist members. You can make your point.

Mr A WATSON: My point was a simple request. We are used to the equipment always being on, so we didn’t bring the lists with us. It is fair and well to say that all the Whips have them - I also have one in my office - but I asked, as a mere courtesy, that when, for instance, you say “Vote No 1”, you also say what Vote No 1, namely the Presidency. I asked as a matter of courtesy. I really don’t deserve to be chastised.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Your point is noted. Your point is noted indeed. We will now proceed to Vote No 2.

Vote No 2 - Parliament - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 3 - Foreign Affairs - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Vote No 3 – is it agreed to? You are not voting from the heart. This is a critical debate this afternoon. Politically parties have taken positions. It is not my responsibility from this Chair to respond to political parties, because on the list that I have there are clear indications – recorded in writing – which parties are going to object to which Votes. I think it is only fair that I must say when I say, for instance, Vote No 5, to remind the parties. Everybody knows the position his or her party is going to take on which particular Vote.

Vote No 4 - Home Affairs - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Mr M A MZIZI: Chairperson, we probably need to put our stance clearly. We have indicated that we are not going to object to any Vote, but would make a declaration - a blanket declaration - on all the Votes. I don’t know whether we will have that opportunity at the end of the debate, or whether we will have that opportunity at whatever time you would allow. That declaration will encapsulate all the Votes. Thank you, Sir. Mrs Mchunu will be doing that if that opportunity is given to the IFP.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: In terms of the order of proceedings, hon Mzizi, your party is at liberty to make a declaration of vote on each of the Votes if it so wishes.

Mr M A MZIZI: [Inaudible.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Okay, no problem. I will give you an opportunity for that.

Vote No 5 - Provincial and Local Government - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr D A WORTH: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, whilst the sum of R351,7 million has been allocated in the Adjustments Appropriation Bill in respect of provincial and local government transfers, no additional amount has been allocated with regard to capacity-building in our local municipalities. Millions of rands were spent in procuring the services of consultants by the various municipalities, and very few skills were transferred to the employees in the process.

More funding, including funding by the Department of Public Services and Administration, must be provided to ensure that the necessary skills and competencies are acquired by our municipalities through the provincial governments.

The DA, however, supports the Vote on this occasion. I thank you.

Mr S SHICEKA: Chairperson, local government in this country has undergone, and is still undergoing, transformation. In 1994 the glorious movement took over 1 200 municipalities, which were racially based; the majority without any tax base and therefore there was no income. They were dependent entirely on their bosses. They were “baas boys” [“boss boys”]; unrepresentative.

We have now reduced them to 284, in terms of which the majority has a revenue base; they are democratically elected; and politically and administratively accountable to the people. We are the first to admit that there are still challenges that exist in local government, as this sphere of government is only close to five years old. Project Consolidate, which is what has been raised by my colleague here, is there to ensure that capacity is given to municipalities and that they are mobilised. I think the Deputy President yesterday raised this very same issue.

At the same time, in terms of that capacity it has been agreed that there is going to be mentorship to ensure that people are skilled, capacitated and able to ensure that they deliver services that are efficient and cost- effective.

The ANC supports this Vote. Thank you very much.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 6 - Public Works - put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: In terms of my order of this I am informed that the UIF is likely to make a reservation. I have gone through the Rules and orders of this Council. There is no such thing as a “reservation”, except a declaration of vote. However, I will afford the hon member, given his experience in the House, the opportunity to explain whether it is a declaration of vote or what. UIF? Oh, you support. You were misrepresented here. Thank you, hon member.

Vote No 7 - Government Communication and Information System - put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 8 - National Treasury - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr A WATSON: Chair, may I just say that this declaration was going to be given by Ms Robinson, our member on the finance committee, but she is not feeling well. She obtained an urgent appointment with the doctor and left a minute ago. This is our overall declaration, but we elected to do it under this Vote, Vote No 8.

The total estimated expenditure of government tabled in the March Budget amounted to R417,8 billion. The Bill provides for an extra R4,2 billion to be allocated to the various Votes, but as a result of reduced debt costs of R1,3 billion, a R2,5 billion reduction in the contingency reserve and a projected saving and underspending of R2,5 billion, there is a net decrease in the Appropriation Bill of R2,1 billion, resulting in the overall Budget being reduced from R417,8 billion to R415,7 billion.

The DA supports the Bill overall as there is no further strain on the fiscus or, ultimately, the taxpayer. However, comment on certain of the individual Votes will be given when the House considers each of the Votes and the schedule, as we have done with five Votes already.

I wish to state, however, that the DA is not happy with the process for the introduction of the Adjustments Appropriation Bill. Adjustments are allowed in circumstances set out in terms of section 30(2) of the Public Finance Management Act. But the process does not allow either the Finance committee or the relevant portfolio committee to interrogate either the savings and underspendings, or indeed the adjustments and reallocations proposed in this Bill, adequately enough. We will be calling for a review of the process and, if need be, an amendment to the Public Finance Management Act.

[We support the Vote.]

Mnr D J BOTHA: Agb Voorsitter, agb Adjunkminister, die Nasionale Tesourie is een van die weinige nasionale departmente wat tot dusver nie ’n addisionele bedrag ontvang het in die aansuiwerings in netto bepalings nie. Dis oorheersend as gevolg van die verminderde staatskoste in vergelyking met ons oorspronklike Begroting in Februarie 2005.

Na beraming beloop die koste van ons staatskuld R1,276 miljard minder as wat voorsien is in die Begroting. Die verminderde staatskuldkoste is nie ’n afwyking nie, maar ’n resultaat wat gereeld waargeneem is die afgelope vyf jaar. Dis ’n bewys dat die ANC-regering die land se ekonomie werklik kan beheer en dat die DA moet inval by dié Begroting, en dat hulle nie hul eie begrotings moet voorstel nie. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr D J BOTHA: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, the National Treasury is one of the few departments that has to date not received an additional amount in the adjustment in net provisions. This is overwhelmingly as a consequence of the decreased public costs in comparison with our original Budget in February 2005. According to estimates the cost of our public debt amounts to R1, 276 billion less than was provided for in the Budget. The decreased costs of public debt are not a deviation, but a result that has been observed regularly during the past five years. It is proof that ANC Government can really control the country’s economy and that the DA should fit in with this Budget, and that they should not propose their own budgets.]

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 9 – Public Enterprises – put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 10 - Public Service and Administration – put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 11 - Public Service Commission – put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Votes No 12 - South African Management Development Institute; Vote No 13 - Statistics South Africa; and Vote No 14 - Arts and Culture – put. Votes agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution. Vote No 15 – Education – put.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Is there any declaration of vote – DA? The DA withdraws its declaration on this Vote.

Declaration of vote:

Mr B J TOLO: As the ANC, Chair, we support, unreservedly, the Department of Education. It is our considered view that this department has delivered, and continues to deliver, sterling work in the field of education. We call upon the department to soldier on, as they have the support of the majority of the people of this country.

The Minister and his team must resist attempts by our detractors who are nostalgic about the apartheid past. As the ANC, we say that with our support you are destined to go from strength to strength. We support.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 16 – Health – put.

Declarations of vote:

Ms H LAMOELA: Chair, as the R127,6 million adjustment represents roll-overs because of mismanagement, we really have no option but to vote for this amount. This adjustment appropriation is a reflection of the utter chaos the Department of Health wallows in, as it has once again received a qualified audit report, reflecting zero control over revenue received, lack of planning, unclaimed benefits, and the renting of unutilised buildings.

Despite the HIV/Aids pandemic killing a thousand people a day, R10 million was spent on condoms that didn’t arrive. There was the return of R78 million from KZN, reflecting the failure of the hospital revitalisation programme. Tenders are mishandled; unqualified staff simply forgot to purchase software programmes; and unconditional grants were withheld from two provinces - the North West and Mpumalanga - for failing to provide business plans.

We therefore call on the Minister to, at the very least, assure Parliament that as with global business best practice, there were substantial penalties relating to, for example, the nondelivery of R10 million worth of condoms, and that this delay will not push the crippling HIV infection rate in this country still higher.

The DA has no option but to vote for this enormous, unutilised amount of R128 million, because the people need it even if the Department of Health is incapable of handling it. I thank you.

Ms J M MASILO: Chairperson, we visited more than six provinces as a committee. We saw progress and good governance in terms of health. As the ANC we do support Vote No 16 – Health - especially in terms of the following: firstly, the hospital revitalisation programme, eg in the Northern Cape - Colesberg Hospital; in the Free State - the Boitumelo Hospital; in Gauteng - the Pretoria Academic Hospital; in the North West - the Swartruggens Hospital, to mention just a few. These hospitals now look like private hospitals even though they are public hospitals. Well done, Health Department.

The second aspect is the building of new clinics and hospitals of high standards that are also user-friendly to people with disabilities. The third aspect is that in terms of the programmes on HIV and Aids, community health workers and health caregivers are inplace. The fourth aspect is to do with fighting malaria, TB and diabetes, and for a healthy lifestyle for all South Africans. I thank you.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 17 – Labour – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 18 - Social Development – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 19 - Sport and Recreation South Africa – put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution. Vote No 20 – Correctional Services – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 21 – Defence – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 22 - Independent Complaints Directorate – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 23 - Justice and Constitutional Development – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 24 - Safety and Security – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 25 – Agriculture – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 26 – Communications – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 27 - Environmental Affairs and Tourism – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 28 – Housing – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution. Vote No 29 - Land Affairs – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 30 - Minerals and Energy – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 31 - Science and Technology – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 32 - Trade and Industry – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 33 – Transport – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 34 - Water Affairs and Forestry – put.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Is there any objection to the Vote? There is no objection to the Vote, so it is agreed to. Is there any declaration of vote?

Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Yes, the IFP supports . . .

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, you don’t just say “yes” and jump up. I must recognise you and order you to stand up. You are now given the opportunity. [Laughter.]

Declaration of vote:

Mrs J N VILAKAZI: The IFP supports the Bill, but would like to urge all members to go out there and be of assistance to communities in oversight work. Underspending in roll-overs in populations that are poverty-stricken and hungry does not make us a responsible and caring government. I thank you, Mr Chair.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Question put: That the Schedule be agreed to.

Schedule agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

                   ADJUSTMENTS APPROPRIATION BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

Order disposed of without debate.

Bill agreed to in terms of section 75 of the Constitution.

                     REVENUE LAWS AMENDMENT BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

Order disposed of without debate.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

                 REVENUE LAWS SECOND AMENDMENT BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

Mr Z S KOLWENI: Hon Chairperson, my colleagues and special delegates, allow me to take you through the Revenue Laws Amendment Bills.

The Revenue Laws Amendment Bill of 2005 and the Revenue Laws Second Amendment Bill of 2005 contain the remaining tax proposals, as announced in the Budget. The first Revenue Laws Amendment Bill refers to items that must be dealt with by way of money Bills, while the Revenue Laws Second Amendment Bill refers to items relating to the administration of the tax regime.

The tax changes dealt with in the two Bills include a variety of matters, such as changes to the tax treatment of medical scheme contributions; medical expenses of site-employer-provided medical services; the withholding of tax on foreign visiting entertainers and sportspersons; changes to the tax treatment of public-benefit organisations; the extension of the urban development zone incentives; measures to facilitate corporate formation and corporate restructuring; changes to the collection of the Road Accident Fund levy; and a number of changes to the VAT Act and other tax changes.

In the interests of time, I was requested to trim my speech. For that reason, I would recommend that this House accept the Bill. Thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

                   INTERGOVERMENTAL FISCAL REVIEW

                      (Consideration of Report)

Mr E M SOGONI: Chairperson, it is unfortunate that the provinces are not here to debate this report, because this is a very comprehensive report of the provincial budgets and the expenditure of the provinces. I hope that next time they will be able to participate in this debate.

The provincial budgets and the expenditure review not only provide a comprehensive set of data on the provincial budgets and expenditure, but, more importantly, they include an analysis of the trends in service delivery.

The new democratic order of the Republic of South Africa is determined to give legitimacy to the claims of the Freedom Charter. Unremitting monitoring of our delivery on the service front is crucial, and should perhaps be robust and obligatory.

The review currently before the NCOP is an inescapable tool or an instrument essential for us to conduct our oversight responsibilities as the elected public representatives. This year’s review was published two months before the release of the 2005 Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, that is the forward estimates for the next two financial years.

The current review does not include details for local government finances. A separate publication on local government finances and service delivery trends will be released early next year. Although the intergovernmental relations in this country are still nascent, the Public Finance Management Act and the Local Government: Municipal Finance Management Act have improved not only governance, but also the financial management of the public sector.

The consequences are significantly better budget planning and markedly more effective control of expenditure. This review takes us unquestionably to the next rung of the ladder towards good governance.

For the very first time, the National Treasury and the presiding officers of the NCOP hosted a workshop on the Intergovernmental Fiscal Review in mid- September this year. Members of the NCOP and standing committee members from the provinces received a preview of the document. The Select Committee on Finance, in addition, convened public hearings over four days in mid- October.

The 2005 review document demonstrates that the number of beneficiaries for old age pensions has increased significantly. The Eastern Cape and KwaZulu- Natal spent relatively more on old age pensions than other provinces.

During the public hearings, we were repeatedly informed that there was a growing migration of young people away from the Eastern Cape to the Western Cape. When citizens reach old age, they usually return to the province of their birth. What is difficult to fathom is why the number of beneficiaries of old age pensions grows across all provinces. We can understand that the number of beneficiaries in the Eastern Cape would increase. The crucial point is why the number of beneficiaries of old age pensions in provinces receiving young people increases as well. Of particular concern to the Select Committee on Finance was the period in which the data was provided in the 2005 review. The review provides us with data demonstrating the number of learners in our schools, the number of schools and classes across provinces and, more importantly, the ratio of learner to educator and the ratio of learners to schools.

The difficulty we are faced with is that this numerical data referred to

1. This means that the data is three years old. Therefore, the question is: How do you plan strategically with outdated data? The issue for the committee is that the gathering of data is not difficult, and little explanation is forwarded for the outdatedness of the data.

Although the national Department of Education provided data for 2003 during the public hearings, the newly released figures still do not address . . .

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, I’m afraid your time has expired.

Debate concluded.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I shall now put the question. The question is that the report be adopted. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. Are all delegations heads present? Yes.

In terms of Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces an opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. Is there any province that wants to make a declaration of vote? No.

We shall now proceed to voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN: Steun. [Supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Gauteng?

Mr E M SOGONI: Chairperson, siyavuma. [We support.] However, I have a question, because I thought that I had 10 minutes . . . [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: You are out of order, hon member. Gauteng supports. KwaZulu-Natal?

Ms A N T MCHUNU: KwaZulu-Natal steun. [KwaZulu-Natal supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Limpopo?

Ms H F MATLANYANE: Steun. [Supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga?

Ms F NYANDA: Mpumalanga supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Northern Cape?

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Noord-Kaap steun. [Northern Cape supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: North West supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape?

Mr F ADAMS: Wes-Kaap steun. [Western Cape supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: All nine provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the report adopted. [Applause.]

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, can I take your point of order?

Mr E M SOGONI: Chairperson, I was not informed that my time was cut down to the number of minutes . . .

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, you are out of order. It is written. That thing is functioning. I actually even gave you 12 seconds after your time had expired. I think your point of order is quite unfair and not just out of order.

I cut the hon Gamede’s time and that of quite a number of speakers. I think that rule must apply to everybody. There should be no exception to the rule, so you are quite out of order.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: We did announce here that times were going to be cut in half. But we must commend the member because he made history by standing at the podium while the process was continuing. [Laughter.]

                 MEDIUM-TERM BUDGET POLICY STATEMENT

                      (Consideration of Report) Mr B J MKHALIPHI: Hon Chairperson, hon members, as we are aware the Minister of Finance presented the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement to Parliament and the nation on 25 October. Our role as the Joint Budget Committee is to consider this report and statement, conduct hearings on the MTEF that fall within our mandate and report to this House. Our National Assembly component dealt with such a report yesterday.

We would therefore like to present a concise report as to how we went about implementing the mandate that was put to us by this House. Departments invited to the hearings were convened in the relevant clusters. This had the added benefit of fostering co-operation and co-ordination among the departments falling within the same cluster.

We noticed remarkable and cordial relations rather than competition among the departments. We hasten to add, though, that there is still work to be done in this regard. The Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement was not considered in isolation. We also considered the recent report on the provincial expenditures and the monthly report by the National Treasury on expenditure by departments.

The major focus of deliberations was the accelerated and shared growth, which yielded the gross fiscal allocations. As our collective efforts at instilling fiscal discipline in all facets of government mature and consolidate, the possibility of any departmental official getting away with less information on what they do in implementing the budget becomes more and more remote.

Indeed, oversight can be made more effective and exciting at the same time when more focus falls on the utilisation of resources to speed up service delivery and sustainable development to bolster our precious democracy. Our elaborate report, as printed in the ATC of the 14th, reflects our action and report to this honourable House, as called upon by the resolution of the same House.

May I reflect on some of the recommendations we made in the report. For your attention, hon members, where the word “Parliament” appears, it refers, in the recommendations, to the engines that drive this institution – Parliament - the committees. We would therefore implore hon members to internalise these recommendations, because they call for action and report- backs as per the resolution of this House.

While all the recommendations remain relevant, one was to call upon our committees to exercise oversight on the development nodes. We contend that this House and its committees have a particular role to play in the development nodes since this is the site where intergovernmental relations, especially fiscal relations, can be seen at play. We commend the report as it is appeared in the ATC for your careful consideration, hon members.

I thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I shall now put the question. The question is that the report be adopted. As the decision is dealt with in term of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all the delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. Are all delegation heads present? They are.

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces an opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish.

We shall now proceed to voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour of, against, or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: In favour.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN: In favour.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Gauteng?

Mr E M SOGONI: Siyavuma. [We support.] The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI: KwaZulu-Natal elethu. [Supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Limpopo?

Ms H F MATLANYANE: Limpopo steun. [Limpopo supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga?

Ms M P THEMBA: Mpumalanga supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Northern Cape?

Mr C M GOEIEMAN: Noord-Kaap steun. [Northern Cape supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: North West ke a rona. [North West supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape?

Mr Y GABRU: Wes-Kaap steun. [Western Cape supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: All provinces have voted in favour. I therefore declare the report adopted.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

ORGANISATION FOR ECONOMIC CO-OPERATION AND DEVELOPMENT (OECD) CONVENTION ON COMBATING BRIBERY OF FOREIGN PUBLIC OFFICALS IN INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS TRANSACTIONS

                      (Consideration of Report)

Mr S SHICEKA: Chair of Committees, I’m standing in front of you today to request this august House to assent to the country becoming a signatory to the Convention on Combating Bribery of Foreign Public Officials in International Business Transactions.

The aim of this convention, really, is to criminalise the bribery of foreign officials by businesses in order to gain commercial advantage. The way to do this is to ensure that domestic laws that are relevant and that govern all aspects of the offence will be applicable.

South Africa is in a fortunate position in that it already meets the requirements of the convention. It has in place very progressive anticorruption legislation, such as the Prevention and Combating of Corrupt Activities Act passed in 2004, the anti-money-laundering regime through the Prevention of Organised Crime Act of 1998 and the Financial Intelligence Centre Act of 2001.

South Africa was invited by the Secretary-General of the Organisation of Economic Co-operation and Development, owing to its economic, political and social and leading position on the continent. The world sees South Africa as the gateway to Africa.

The benefits of our being party to this convention are manifold. South Africa will be able to tap into the OECD’s range of expertise, information and experience. Also, there will be opportunities for the training of our government and public officials.

In conclusion, our ratification of this convention further strengthens our fight against corruption. It is yet another weapon for South Africa, standing side by side with the international community, to stamp out the demon of corruption.

We are on the offensive in terms of dealing harshly and mercilessly with those who are found guilty of corruption. It cannot be business as usual. Thank you very much.

Debate concluded.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon members, I shall now put the question. The question is that the report be adopted. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber. Are all delegation heads present? Yes.

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces an opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. We shall now proceed to voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order, per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour of, against, or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: In favour.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN: In favour.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Gauteng?

Mr E M SOGONI: Siyavuma. [We support.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI: KwaZulu-Natal a e thekga. [KwaZulu-Natal supports.] The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Limpopo?

Ms H F MATLANYANE: Limpopo supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga?

Ms M P THEMBA: Mpumalanga supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Northern Cape?

Mr C M GOEIEMAN: Noord-Kaap steun. [Northern Cape supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: Supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape?

Mr Y GABRU: Wes-Kaap steun. [Western Cape supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: All provinces have voted in favour of the report. I therefore declare the report adopted.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution. NOTICE ON APPROVAL OF REMUNERATION OF MAGISTRATES

                      (Consideration of Report)

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, we are putting this matter to rest once and for all. Let me just say that the committee, after receiving the recommendations from the independent commission, headed by the honourable Deputy Chief Justice, sat down and looked at the contents of the recommendations.

When looking into the recommendations, as the committee playing our oversight role, we wanted to make sure who was going to fund the programme. This is because as the recommendations stood, it was not clear who was going to fund the programme.

Being a progressive committee, we deemed it fit and proper to invite the two departments relevant to this particular programme, that is Finance and Justice and Constitutional Development, to a public hearing to hear their inputs. For example, Justice, which is supposed to look after magistrates, didn’t have budgets for that in their programme. As you are aware, our budget system in this country has a three-year cycle.

We went back to Treasury, that is Finance, to check whether there was any funding for this particular programme. There was no such thing in their line functioning. Those two departments agreed and said to the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs: “We want to thank you because we did not detect this. Because of what you have done as a committee, we are now going to sit down as the two departments to see who is going to fund this particular project.”

I am proud to say, having considered our concerns as a committee, the two departments agreed that the Department of Finance, that is Treasury, was going to make funds available to the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development for it in turn to pay our magistrates.

If we had not done that as a committee, what would have happened is that this would have been a once-off payment by Justice. But what we have done as a committee means that those recommendations by the commission will now be effective from April up to whenever.

I therefore want to say to our magistrates: This ANC democratic government will look after you. We are not in any way going to dump you. We have done what we have done simply because we want to make sure that your interests are taken care of.

On that note, from now onwards the remuneration packages of our magistrates are going to be implemented. Let me say thank you to the committee, because they really played their oversight role. Chairperson, I’d be failing in my duty if I do not thank the hon Nyanda, the hon Ntuli, the hon Darryl Worth, the hon Le Roux, the hon Fielding, the hon Sicelo Shiceka, the hon Moseki and yours truly for the role we played in making sure that our magistrates get what they deserve.

On that note, I say to our magistrates: Go do your jobs. This government loves you. We support this. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I shall now put the question. The question is that the report be adopted. And as the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. Are all delegation heads present? Yes.

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces an opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. We shall now proceed to voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour of, against, or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN: Supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Gauteng?

Mr E M SOGONI: Gauteng a e thekga. [Gauteng supports]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI: KwaZulu-Natal a e thekga. [KwaZulu-Natal supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Limpopo?

Ms H F MATLANYANE: Limpopo a e thekga. [Limpopo supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga? Ms M P THEMBA: Ke a rona. [Supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEE: Northern Cape?

Mr C M GOEIEMAN: Noord-Kaap steun. [Northern Cape supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: North West ke wa rona. [North West supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape?

Mr Y GABRU: Wes-Kaap steun. [Western Cape supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: All nine provinces have voted in favour. I therefore declare the report adopted.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I don’t have any appetite for breaking my record of being progressive, lest I be left standing on that podium like Mr Sogoni.

            PROPOSED NEW SALARY SCALES FOR THE MAGISTRACY


                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I want to Table the draft resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:

That the Council –

(1) noting that the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs and the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development held joint hearings on 18 October 2005 to inter alia enquire into the details of the implications and the approval of the proposed new salary scales for the magistracy;

(2) pending the finalisation of the recommendations emanating from the hearings and arising from the interim report of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, resolves as follows:

    (a) in terms of section 12(3)(b)(i) of the  Magistrates  Act  90  of
          1993, approves the draft notice and schedule of the President
          tabled in Parliament on 7 September 2005;


    (b) that the costs for  the  implementation  of  the  motor  vehicle
          allowances  for  senior  magistrates   and   magistrates   be
          allocated to the Justice Vote in terms of  section  213(2)(b)
          of the Constitution of the Republic  of  South  Africa,  read
          with Section 12(4) of the Magistrates Act 90 of 1993; and


    (c) that the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs
          table its final report in the Council before the end  of  the
          year detailing the outcomes and recommendations  in  relation
          to legislative and procedural  matters  in  relation  to  the
          determination of salary levels for magistrates;  the  absence
          of a budgetary allocation to defray the  proposed  new  motor
          vehicle allowances for senior  magistrates  and  magistrates;
          the  development  of  policy  measures  to  deal   with   the
          implications arising from the  extension  of  motor  vehicles
          allowances to senior  magistrates  and  magistrates  and  any
          other matter relevant to or emanating from the said hearings.

Secondly, I would like to say that there will be an amendment to section 2(a), where it says “In terms of section 12(3)(a)”, we amend the (a) to (b), so that it reads “Section 12(3)(b)(i)”.

Thirdly, I request this House to adopt this resolution so that I can put this matter on the back burner. Let me spend some sleepless nights on other issues, not this one. Thank you very much.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: As there is no speakers’ list, I shall now put the question. The question is that the motion be agreed to. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. Are all delegation heads present in the Chamber? Yes.

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces an opportunity make their declarations of vote, if they so wish. We shall now proceed to voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province.

Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour of, against, or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN: steun. [Supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Gauteng?

Mr E M SOGONI: Siyavuma. [We support.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI: KwaZulu-Natal is in favour.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Limpopo?

Ms H F MATLANYANE: Limpopo steun. [Limpopo supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga?

Ms M P THEMBA: Supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Northern Cape?

Mr C M GOEIEMAN: Noord-Kaap steun. [Northern Cape supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: North West ke a rona. [North West supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape?

Mr Y GABRU: Wes-Kaap steun. [Western Cape supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: All nine provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the motion agreed to.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

MOVING OF SPECIAL PENSIONS AMENDMENT BILL AND AUDITING PROFESSION BILL FROM “FURTHER BUSINESS” ON ORDER PAPER TO ABOVE THE LINE

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, honourable House, I move without notice:

That the consideration of the Special Pensions Amendment Bill, B28B of 2005, and the Consideration of the Auditing Profession Bill, B31B of 2005, which appear under “Further Business” on today’s Order Paper be moved above the line and be dealt with today as Orders 12 and 13 respectively.

I should also confirm to your hon good self that we have consulted with the Whips, and we are in agreement that we have no reason to halt the dispensing of the special pensions to those war veterans who are waiting eagerly to enjoy their festive season with these funds. The same applies to the auditing profession, because we want good governance and good auditing. Thank you.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                   SPECIAL PENSIONS AMENDMENT BILL


            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I call on the hon Sogoni to speak for five minutes. Five minutes! [Interjections.]

Mr E M SOGONI: Chairperson, I’ve become wiser. The Special Pensions Amendment Bill, as the Chief Whip indicated, intends to amend the Special Pensions Act, Act 69 of 1996. We must thank our government for heeding the cries of many of our suffering former freedom fighters and the families of those who have passed on.

The specifics of the Special Pensions Amendment Bill are the following. Firstly, it provides for the lapsing of the provisions for special pensions and the survivors’ lump sums on 31 December 2006. This means that the consideration of new applications for pensions and survivors’ lump sums, after this date, will no longer be possible. However, those applications in the process will still be finalised.

Secondly, the extension of certain benefits, such as monthly pensions for surviving spouses or orphans on the death of the pensioner, will apply retrospectively from 1 December 1996.

In the interests of time this time, I propose the adoption of this report. Thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

                      AUDITING PROFESSION BILL


            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

Mr M C GOEIEMAN: Chairperson, the current Bill will repeal the Public Accountants’ and Auditors’ Board Act, Act 80 of 1991. The proposed Bill improves the integrity of South Africa’s financial sector and financial reporting by ensuring that there is effective oversight with regard to the auditing profession as a whole.

The Bill provides for the following: the establishment of the independent regulatory board of auditors; the education, training and professional development of registered auditors; the accreditation of professional bodies; the registration of auditors; and the regulation of the conduct of registered auditors.

On behalf of the Select Committee on Finance, I appeal to this House to endorse the Auditing Profession Bill. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

The Council adjourned at 18:28. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Bills passed by Houses – to be submitted to President for assent

 (1)    Bill passed by National Assembly on 16 November 2005:


     (i)     Repeal of Black Administration Act and Amendment of
          Certain Laws Bill [B 25D – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 76)

 (2)    Bills passed by National Council of Provinces on 16 November
     2005:


     (i)     Forestry Laws Amendment Bill [B 24B – 2005] (National
          Assembly – sec 76)
     (ii)    Adjustments Appropriation Bill [B 37 – 2005] (National
          Assembly – sec 77)
     (iii)   Revenue Laws Amendment Bill [B 40 – 2005] (National
          Assembly – sec 77)
     (iv)    Revenue Laws Second Amendment Bill [B 41 – 2005] (National
          Assembly – sec 75)
     (v)     Special Pensions Amendment Bill [B 28B – 2005] (National
          Assembly – sec 75)
     (vi)    Auditing Profession Bill [B 31B – 2005] (National Assembly
          – sec 75)

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Labour

   (a) Report and Financial Statements of the Forest Industries Education and Training Authority for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2004- 2005 [RP 90-2005].

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. Report of the Joint Standing Committee on Defence on Deployment of SANDF, dated 16 November 2005:

The Joint Standing Committee on Defence, having considered the letters
from the President on the deployment of the SANDF to areas outside the
borders of the country, referred to the Committee, reports that it has
concluded its deliberations thereon.

National Council of Provinces

1. Report of the Select Committee on Finance on the Adjustment Appropriation Bill [B 21 – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 77), dated 16 November 2005: The Select Committee on Finance, having considered the subject of the Adjustments Appropriation Bill [B 21 – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 77), referred to it, reports that it has concluded its deliberations thereon.

2. Report of the Select Committee on Finance on the Revenue Laws Amendment Bill [B 40 – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 77), dated 16 November 2005:

   The Select Committee on Finance, having considered the subject of the Revenue Laws Amendment Bill [B 40 – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 77), referred to it, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

3. Report of the Select Committee on Finance on the Revenue Laws Second Amendment Bill [B 41 – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 75), dated 16 November 2005:

   The Select Committee on Finance, having considered the subject of Revenue Laws Second Amendment Bill [B 41 – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 75), referred to it, reports the Bill without proposed amendments.

4. Report of the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs on their study Tour to India, dated 6th August 2005, dated 14 November 2005:

The Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs, having undertaken a Study Tour to India, reports as follows: A. Introduction

In its meeting held on 7th June 2005, the Committee agreed to undertake a study tour to India from 6th – 12th August, to meet and discuss with relevant stakeholders issues relating to Agriculture; Aquaculture; Job Creation and Poverty Alleviation.

1. Delegation

A multi-party delegation, under the leadership of the Chairperson, Rev P Moatshe (ANC) included Mr RJ Tau (ANC); Mr CJ Van Rooyen (ANC); Mr A Watson (DA); Mr F Adams (NNP); Ms BN Dlulane (ANC); Dr F Khan (Researcher) and Mr AA Bawa (Committee Secretary).

1. Objectives of the visit

The objective of the visit was to meet some of the various stakeholders to discuss the following issues:

▪ Agricultural and aquaculture initiatives including policies ▪ Sustainable and tourism development ▪ Government’s institutional and policy measures in support of job creation and poverty alleviation ▪ Selection of projects, program design, management, and evaluation mechanisms, and ▪ Community participation and involvement and multi-sectoral approaches to programmes

B. Overview of the report

The report sets out the findings of the delegation as it emerged from presentation by the various officials and on site visits to various Aquaculture farms. It provides an analysis of issues and insight to a host of areas such as, Agriculture; Aquaculture; Job Creation and Poverty Alleviation.

C. Overview of Study tour

1. Background of Indian economy

The performance of the Indian economy was good during 2003-2004 as GDP grew at 8.2% and inflation contained below 7% during that year. On the international front India’s total global trade touched US$ 112 billion and foreign exchange reserves increased to US$ 1444 billion as at May 2005.

The fundamentals of the Indian economy are sound as India’s current account deficit is less than 1%. The Planning Commission, Government of India has estimated a GDP growth at 8%, savings rate at 26% and investment rate at 28% during the period between 2004 – 2008.

1.1 South African Prospects

Given the trend and government policy, it is estimated that the Indian economy would grow at 6%, benefiting South African companies in the following areas:

1. Growth in manufacturing will ensure surge in imports of key industrial inputs such as capital equipment, minerals, technology, steel and other ferrous and non – ferrous metals from SA.
2. Growth in electricity, ceramics, cement will further accentuate imports of coal from SA.
3. Better performance in mining and querying will improve demand for SA mining technology, consultancy services and mining machinery in India.
4. Execution of performance in infrastructure projects sectors including electricity, water and road construction will create opportunities for SA companies in doing business in India.
5. Overall performance of the Indian economy will also create demand for SA products such as fruits; wines and other alcoholic beverages.
6. Growth of agriculture and favorable monsoon will lead to increase in fertilizer imports from SA.
7. India is quite advanced in biotechnology including biomedicine and bioinformatics, where SA would gain from the Indian experience through joint ventures and training.
8. Intensify campaign for attracting power intensive industries to SA due to low cost of power, eg TATA steel Ltd.
9. Capacity building regarding technical / vocational skills such as jewellery making / design, which are labour intensive industries to absorb the abundant labour in SA.
10. A companies being encouraged to participate in bidding for tenders in India, such as security equipment; power, mining and infrastructure projects.
11. The ultimate aim is to sign a Federal Trade Agreement (FTA) between South African Customs Union (SACU) and India.

1.2 South Africa India trade

Ever since the diplomatic relations was established between India and SA in 1993, trade has grown rapidly. India’s imports are mainly capital equipment, crude oil; auto components; chemicals, gold, silver and mineral fuels. South Africa could meet some of India’s import requirements.

Exports from SA to India are expected to grow in future in view of India’s commitment in lowering import duties further which was reflected in the budget presented in the Indian Parliament and the trade policy declared on the 8th April 2005.

Some of the large as well as medium enterprisers of India are exploring investment opportunities in SA, just as a number of leading SA businesses such as SAB Miller; De Beers; Denel and Reutech have set up operation in India.

1. Aquaculture

Definition: It is the domestic harvesting of fish and other species living in water.

Aquaculture comprises a whole range of users, systems, practices and species, operating through a continuum ranging from backyard household ponds to large-scale farms. Shrimp aquaculture in its traditional form has been an important source of food and livelihood for coastal people.

During the past two decades, aquaculture in India has become the fastest growing food-producing sector, and is an increasingly important contributor to national economic development, global food supply, food security and nutrition.

No other species is commercially cultured in India, not even marine fishes. The Rajiv Gandhi Centre for Aquaculture (RGCA) was set up by the Government of India to develop commercial culture technologies for species that command good market potential, particularly marine fishes. In this regard, the RGCA has, for the first time in India, initiated projects for developing marine fish culture in India. As a first step, RGCA established a commercial hatchery for the production of seabass seeds in India by availing marginal technical advice from the Central Institute of Brackish water Aquaculture (ICAR).

The lack of regulation governing the establishment of shrimp farms, led in some places to improper sitting, overcrowding, changes in land use pattern, and conversion of other habitats. The basic objectives of the programme were the optimum utilisation of coastal saline areas, and for the provision of employment and livelihood security to the more vulnerable sections of the community.

2.1 Development of Fresh Water Aquaculture

The development of Fresh Water Aquaculture is one of the most important production orientated programmes implemented by the States as a Centrally Sponsored Scheme through the Fish Farmers Development Agencies (FFDAs).

During 2000 – 2001, about 36 394 hectare (ha) of water area was brought under scientific fish farming through FFDAs. Government agencies have trained 17 485 fish farmers in improved practices of fish farming and the scheme has benefited about 46 988 people.

In order to increase fish production and promote Aquaculture, four pilot projects were introduced, namely:

▪ Development of Fisheries and Aquaculture ▪ Integrated Development of Inland Capture Fisheries Resources ▪ Development of Waterlogged Areas into Aquaculture Estates and ▪ Utilisation of Inland Saline and Soil Aquaculture

2.2 Development of Integrated Coastal Aquaculture

The main objective of this scheme is to utilize the country’s vast brackish water land for fish / shrimp culture as to increase the foreign exchange earnings through increased shrimp production, generation of adequate employment opportunities and to increase the income of farmers.

2.3 Onsite Visits (KOLKATA)

2.3.1. The STATE FISHERIES DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION LIMITED (S.F.D.C), operating as NALBAN FISHERIES PROJECT: SEWAGE FED PISCICULTURE FARM

2.3.1.1 History and Objectives

The S.F.D.C was incorporated in March 1966 as a wholly owned Government Company situated in the State of West Bengal, India, also known as Nalban Fisheries Project. It is owned and managed by the State Fisheries Development Corporation Limited and comprises of 174 ha of land, consisting of 3 stocking tanks (164 ha) and 9 rearing tanks (10 ha).

It was previously owned by private parties and in 1979-80 handed over by the Government of West Bengal to the SFDC for pisciculture. The area was developed into a viable sewage fed fishery between 1979–1983, whereafter the commercial pisciculture project started between 1983-84 increasing the cultural area from 49 ha to 174 ha. The source of the sewage water is the water canal of the Calcutta Municipal Corporation, the flow of sewage water intake and out flow of excess water from the project is regulated by 3 inlets and 3 outlets respectively. The supply of sewage water to the project is normally received 3 days a week, which serves as an ecological way of recycling organic waste.

The objectives of the S.F.D.C are as follows:

 1. Aiding; promoting; scientifically exploiting  fisheries  and  other
    aquatic products in West Bengal and India.
 2. Purchasing; leasing or taking over rights over tanks; rivers; lakes
    reservoirs and fresh / salt water bheries.
 3. Carrying  on  business  of  fisheries  development;  any  ancillary
    business and sale / export of fish and other byproducts.
 4. Purchasing; leasing; hiring of boats; ships and fishing equipment.
 5. Setting up cold storage; ice making factory  and  factory  for  the
    extraction / manufacture of fish bye products  as  well  as  frozen
    fish products.

2.3.1.2 Organisational Setup

The management of SFDC is vested in a Board of Directors with the Minister of Fisheries, Government of West Bengal as Chairman. As at 31st March 04 all 3 directors were nominated by the State Government, of which one was the President of SFDC Employees Union, assisted by a team of officers and technical experts.

2.3.1.3 Staff Component The project has a staff component of a 152 people of which 11 are female, with approximately 65 people daily acting as share catches or daily labourers.

2.3.1.4 Species Cultured

The following are species cultured: Indian Major Carp (IMC): Catla; Rahu and Mrigel; Common Carp: Cyprinus; Exotic Carp: Silver Carp and Grass Carp; Air breathing species: Magur; Singhi and Koi; Tilapia: Mozambica and Nilotica

2.3.1.5 Stocking Density

The Nalban Fisheries Project is currently breeding 35 000 – 40 000 fingerlings per hectare per annum.

2.3.1.6 Harvesting of Fish

There is a daily harvesting by one departmental team of 16 permanent workers and also a daily harvesting by 4 parties of share catches of 60 / 65 men who get a cash commission of 2 rupees a kilogram.

2.3.1.7 Marketing

Besides that which is consumed locally, the bulk of the fresh fish is sold through fish auction centre’s.

2.3.1.8 Other activities

A boating facility has been established in the Nalban Fisheries Project as a source of recreation for the city people, this activity brings in an additional source of revenue for the Corporation.

2.3.1.9 Fish Production

The Nalban Fisheries Project has since 2002 produced the following amount (Metric tons):

▪ 2002 / 2003 – 522 Metric Tons ▪ 2003 / 2004 – 482 Metric Tons ▪ 2004 / 2005 – 588 Metric Tons

2.3.2 MUDIALY FISHERMEN’S CO-OPERATIVE SOCIETY LTD (MFCS)

NATURE PARK

2.3.2.1 History and Vision

In November 1961 the Fishermen’s Co-Operative Society named Mudialy Fishermen’s Co-Operative Society Ltd was registered and got a water area on license from the Culcutta Port Commissioner, who retained the right to reclaim any portion for development or any other purpose. The Calcutta Port Trust (CPT) exercised this right in 1988 when the water area was reduced from 250 ha to only 70 ha.

The MFCS has also built this into a “NATURE PARK” comprising the greenery of water bodies, enclosures for Deer; Rabbits; Peacocks and also attracts a variety of migratory and local birds because of the large number of trees planted there.

The MFCS manages an Angan-Wari school under the integrated child development scheme and is responsible for the education; health care and nutrition for nearly 50 children of the community. It has also opened a consumer store to cater for the needs, such as clothes and food at a fair price and to extend good service to the local community.

The vision of the MFCS is to: ▪ Further develop the present model with new scientific knowledge in to an exemplary demonstration centre on sewage fed fishery. ▪ Set up around 60 to 80 aquariums for both fresh water and marine ornamental fish for educational and recreational purposes. ▪ Undertake the construction of a turtle hatchery farm. ▪ Further extend the social forestry and horticultural projects involving medicinal plants. ▪ Improve the current water testing laboratory and build a library with computer facilities. ▪ Set up an adult education camp ▪ Conduct regular interaction with college and universities to improve the understanding of sewage fed fresh water eco-systems.

The central theme / aim of the co-operative is the production of quality fish using industrial and domestic waste water. The activities of the society evolves around 5 themes, namely: ▪ Strengthening the economy ▪ Improving solidarity with the local population ▪ Preserving biodiversity through sustainable development of the wetlands ▪ Developing an exemplary ecotourism site ▪ Develop the “NATURE PARK” as a demonstration centre for integrated sewage fed fishery

2.3.2.2 Treatment of industrial and domestic waste water

The average daily loading of sewage water is approximately 23 million liters, of which 70% is from industries and 30% domestic sewage which is passed through 6 ponds called anaerobic tanks, where water is treated manually using liming or biochemical’s. Water hyacinth are usually kept near the anaerobic tanks to facilitate absorption of the oil grease in the effluent, these tanks are often dug in order to reduce the sludge deposition. The second tank where water flows into is the breeding ground for exotic fish which can survive harsh conditions, include omnivorous fish like Tilapia; Nylotica and air breathing fish like Singi; Magur and Koi.

The water is then allowed to flow through the other ponds further improving water quality, permitting better utilization of the recycled nutrients and mineral contents of the sewage in fish culture before being released back into the canal system.

2.3.2.3 Species Cultured

The following are species cultured: Indian Major Carp: Catla; Rohu; Mrigala and Bata; Exotic Carp: Common Carp; Tilapia; Silver Carp; Grass Carp and Nilotica.

2.3.2.4 Fish Production

The MFCS has since 2001 produced the following amount (Metric Tons)

▪ 2001 / 2002 – 112.4 Metric Tons ▪ 2002 / 2003 – 76.2 Metric Tons ▪ 2003 / 2004 – 126.86 Metric Tons ▪ 2004 / 2005 – 164.26 Metric Tons

1. Poverty Alleviation

The government of India’s poverty alleviation programme can be broadly classified under the following categories:

3.1 Self Employment Programmes

Self employment programmes were introduced at a national level in the late 1970’s and were designed to provide skills, subsidised credit and infrastructure support to small farmers and agricultural labourers so that they could find new sources of income. In 1999 several self – employed programmes were integrated into the Swarnajayanti Gram Swarojgar Yojana (SGSY) programme.

The key aim of the SGSY programme is that it does not seek to promote individual economic activities, but rather seeks to promote self – help groups that are trained in specific skills so that they can formulate micro- enterprise proposals. Such projects are based on activities that are identified for each block on the basis of local resources, skills and markets, which are supported by bank credit and government subsidies.

3.2 Wage Employment Programmes

The first major wage employment programme was introduced in the 1960’s to provide employment to the rural unemployed particularly during the lean agricultural season. The objective of the scheme is to provide additional wage employment with food security in rural areas where beneficiaries are temporarily employed to build community assets and infrastructure. The central and state government shares the cost of the scheme, which includes the distribution of food grain. In 2002, the central government released around 4 million tones of food grain under this scheme.

3.3 Area Development Programmes

This type of programme was introduced in the 1970’s to prevent environmental degradation and provide employment to the poor in these regions. In the mid 90’s, the environment management aspect of these programmes was strengthened by the introduction of watershed development programmes.

Later a scheme was developed to tackle the problem of extreme deprivation in rural parts of the country, with the aim of promoting focused development programmes for rural areas that would help reduce imbalances, speed up development and help rural areas overcome poverty.

3.4 Social Security Programme

The Social security programme was launched at a national level in the 1980’s together with an old age pension scheme, namely:

▪ National Old Age Pension Scheme (NOAPS), which provides a  pension  to
  people above the age of 65 with  no  source  of  income  or  financial
  support.
▪ National Family Benefit  Scheme,  which  provides  10  000  rupees  to
  families living below the poverty line when their main earning  member
  dies.
▪ National Maternity  Benefit  Scheme,  which  provides  500  rupees  to
  pregnant women of families living below the poverty line.
▪  Rural  Group  Insurance  Scheme,  which  provides  a   maximum   life
  insurance of 5000 rupees covering the main earning members of families
  earning below the poverty line.

3.5 Food for Work Programme

An important element of India’s food security regime has been the Food for Work (FFW) programme, which provides poor people with food – typically foodgrains – during periods of unemployment resulting from external calamities such as drought, floods and earthquakes. This programme was started in 2000/01 as a component of the Employment Assurance Scheme (EAS).

FFW is one example (in many countries, an important one) of transferring public resources to identifiable groups of poor people who are vulnerable to crisis or chronic disadvantage of one kind or another. It does so by offering able-bodied people food in exchange for unskilled labour in public works.

The basic principle of FFW is to provide employment to the poor during hard times, to create community assets through labour-intensive work and to pay the labourers in foodgrains or other food items. FFW therefore aims to create win-win situations all round and has been popular among poor countries worldwide.

FFW is perceived as gender-neutral or even pro-women because women within the household are more likely to have control over the food received.

3.6 Special Programme for the Informal Sector – National Policy on Street Vendors The National policy on Urban Street Vendors which was announced in 2004 was formulated with the objective to give street vendors recognition for their contribution to society and support to a dignified livelihood.

The aim of the Policy is:

To recognise the service rendered by the venders to the economy and promote a supportive environment for them to earn a livelihood. To recognise their right to a livelihood and give dignity to the informal sector. To review the legal framework in order to legitimize street vending To facilitate the use of identified space without obstruction To regulate street vending through participatory mechanisms and self compliance. To promote organisations of vendors to facilitate their empowerment. To strive for promoting social security and financial services by providing access to credit through promotion of self help groups and co-operatives.

1. Tourism Development

The Department of Tourism functions under the auspices of the Ministry of Tourism and Culture and is a nodal agency for the development and promotion of Tourism in India.

Up until recently India relied mainly on domestic tourism, now realizing the huge foreign tourist market with a tourism contribution to the GDP of 4.9% during 2004. India realized that they could not rely on the small tourist information centers and launched the Incredible India Campaign on a national level in order to attract the local and foreign markets.

India has a huge domestic market with regard to pilgrims coming from all parts of India to visit holy sights / shrines and has also embarked on a programme of selecting certain rural areas which are easily accessible and establishing these areas as tourist attraction. These rural villages are set up with the infrastructure to accommodate tourists staying there to experience what rural living is all about and at the same time buy the products which are made by the local people. The revenue generated from this is partly reinvested into the infrastructure of the village empowering the people to become self sufficient.

The Incredible India campaign is aiming to make people aware of the importance of tourism and how it contributes towards poverty alleviation and job creation by offering training courses to taxi driver; customs and immigration officials on how to better service delivery. As part of the campaign India has eased some of their visa restrictions, also opening more air routes to allow for easier access to those wanting to visit India. In the next 5 years India forecasts that between 15 – 20 million foreign visitors will be entering India, creating approximately 26 million jobs in that period. Domestic travel is encouraged and also traveling of Indians abroad as India has a huge number of scientists; doctors, bio-chemists and IT specialists living and working abroad in countries like the USA, Canada and the UK , thus generating much need revenue.

Under the Incredible India campaign the tourism infrastructure, such as ports of entry are being upgraded and computerised making India more accessible and user friendly.

To date the country’s tourism development plans have resulted in the following: ▪ In 2002, 2,36 million tourist arrivals were recorded. ▪ Foreign exchange earnings for 2002 were US$ 2,96 billion. ▪ Income from the tourism industry for 2002 was 120 billion rupees (Indian currency). ▪ In 2004, travel and tourism in India generated approximately US$ 38,8 billion in economic activity. ▪ According to the latest research by Europe’s leading Travel Magazine, Conde Nast Traveller, India has entered the top ten tourist destinations of the world for the first time. ▪ Currently, India receives nearly 2,5 million tourists every year ▪ Inbound tourism is concentrated in the North and Rajasthan, the South accounts for about 25% of inbound tourism.

With regard to plans for the future growth of the tourism industry in India, a number of challenges and constraints have been identified. These include:

▪ Lack of adequate tourist infrastructure, including adequate air seat capacity; ▪ Accessibility to tourist destinations; ▪ Lack of adequate accommodation; ▪ Insufficient numbers of appropriately skilled staff; ▪ Poor visitor experience, for example, due to poor hygienic conditions and incidents of touting and harassment in some places; and ▪ The perception that the region is prone to natural disasters. Fresh in the mind of many tourists, will be the disaster wrought by the December 2004 tsunami, which took at least 60 000 lives in India, causing massive destruction of property, and severely affecting the fishing fleet in the coastal areas affected.

1. Forestry

Forests provides for major ecological benefits to India such as soil and water conservation, providing a habitat for wildlife and conserving genetic diversity. They also maintain the local micro – climate and help eliminate various pollutants in the air.

These ecological functions are essential for life support, livelihoods and the economy, but the diversion of forests to non-forest use results in the reduction in the flow of such ecological services. In order to compensate for reduction of such ecological services, Central Government has stipulated that those agencies seeking the diversion of forest land to non forest use must compensate indigenous people.

To date Compensatory Afforestation has taken place over approximately 1 million ha of non-forest and degraded forest land. The National Forest Policy of 1988 safeguards the traditional rights of forest dwellers including tribal communities, as the aim of the policy is sustainable development and the involvement of people in protection and regeneration of the forests and environment with shared benefits.

In order to achieve the National Forest Policy goal of 1/3rd forest and tree cover in the country, the Ministry of Environment and Forest (MOEF) have implemented a National Afforestation Programme (NAP) through the decentralised set up of Forest Development Agencies (FDA) at the Forest Division level and Joint Forest Management Committees (JFMCs) at the village level.

The overall objective of the scheme is to develop the forest resources with people participation, focusing on improving the livelihood of forest communities, especially the poor. The NAP programme aims to support and accelerate the ongoing process of devolving forest protection, management and development functions to decentralised institutions of Joint Forest Management Committees (JFMCs) at the village level and Forest Development Agency (FDA) at the forest division level.

Financial support under the NAP scheme is available for:

▪ Mobilisation of village level JFMC, and Micro planning in project villages ▪ Afforestation, such as: - Aided Natural Regeneration - Artificial Regeneration - Bamboo Plantation - Cane Plantation - Mixed Plantations of trees having medicinal value - Regeneration of perennial herbs and shrubs of medicinal value - Pasture Development ▪ Soil and Moisture Conservation ▪ Fencing, Monitoring and Evaluation of training

The Ministry of Environment and Forests have come up with a Research and Development scheme promoting research in multi-disciplinary aspects of environmental protection, conservation and development. The objective is to generate information required to develop strategies, technology and methodologies for better environmental management.

The Ministry of Environment and Forests have identified 3 programmes, namely:

Ecosystem Research programme, which emphasizes on the ecological approach for studying the relationship between man and environment. Environment Research Programme, which deals with problems related to air, water, soil pollution and development of suitable technologies addressing the pollution in the environment. Eastern and Western Ghats Programme, which addresses the location of specific problems of resource management in the Eastern and Western regions of the country relating to bio-diversity, land use and the impact of development activities.

1. Agriculture

India is mainly an agricultural country with about 43 % of India’s geographical area being used for agricultural activity. With the emergence of new farming techniques and irrigation high agricultural productivity was attained, addressing the issue of producing sufficient food for the increasing population.

India has the world’s largest cattle population (193 million), large numbers of sheep and goats, and more water buffalo and camels than any other country. This has placed heavy demands on the grazing lands, both grasslands and forest areas suffer as a result.

The Indian Government has a pricing policy for agricultural products, attempting to ensure favorable prices to the farmers, for their produce, with a view to encouraging higher investment and production. Minimum prices for major agricultural products are announced each year, which are fixed after taking into account the recommendations of the Commission for Agricultural Costs and Prices (CACP).

With regard to regulations and control, there are no industrial policy licenses required for almost all of the food and agro processing industries, except for some items such as beer, potable alcohol and wines, cane sugar, hydrogenated animal fats and oils, etc.

The agriculture sector has performs a vital function in the economic development of India as it contributes approximately 29.4% of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP), and employs about 64% of the workforce. Significant strides towards ensuring food security have been made in agriculture production. The following challenges have been encountered by the agricultural sector:

▪ It is estimated that about a  total  average  of  16.75  hectares  per
  year of soil in India is lost through  erosion  and  more  than  5,000
  million tons of topsoil is eroded annually. Approximately half of  the
  country  is  threatened  by  various  types  of  degradation  such  as
  salinity,  alkalinity,  waterlogged  areas,  areas  under  ravages  of
  shifting cultivation and desertification.  ▪ Forest and grasslands have been exploited.
▪ Frequent occurrences of floods and  droughts  in  different  parts  of
  the country are evidence of improper land use in  the  catchments  and
  inadequate conservation of rainwater.
▪ The problem of land degradation has increased  the  depletion  of  the
  productivity and the basic land stock  through  nutrient  deficiencies
  impacting on the ever growing demand for food, fodder, fibre, fuel and
  the land-based industrial raw materials.
▪ Over the last two decades, there has been a  considerable  decline  in
  the incidence of rural poverty. However, a  large  number  of  persons
  continue to live below the poverty line and therefore there is a  need
  for  continued  direct  State  intervention  for  the  eradication  of
  poverty. While the programmes for  self-employment  and  supplementary
  wage empowerment continue, they should be redesigned to make them more
  effective as poverty alleviation instruments.
▪ There is urgent need to reduce the dependence  on  fertiliser  imports
  by improving output and productivity in fertiliser production units.

With regard to Genetically Modified Organisms (GMO), India has made some major developments with regard to GMO technology and foresees that in the next 20 years India will be self sufficient with regard to food and wheat security.

The common misconception about GMO is that the seeds can only be used once, but if used properly in conjunction with natural farming it will yield the same results for at least one generation.

The legal framework for GMOs is constituted by the Rules for the Manufacture Use, Import, Export and Storage of Hazardous Micro Organisms, Genetically Engineered Organisms or Cells (1989) adopted under the Environment (Protection) Act.

1. Pollution

The Ministry of Environment and Forests primary concern is the formulation and implementation of policies and programmes relating to conservation of natural resources, biodiversity and prevention of pollution. The overall objectives are the conservation of flora and fauna, prevention and control of pollution, protection of the environment through environmental management programmes and afforestation.

The country’s national policy for environmental management is contained in the national Forest Policy Act of 1988, National Conservation Strategy and Policy Statement on Environment and Development and the Policy Statement for Pollution Control. Recently, a National Environment Policy was drafted and introduced as a guide to implement regulatory reforms, programmes and projects for environmental conservation.

Environmental management in India is maintained through various means, such as:

Impact assessment of Developmental Projects and its re-engineering based on experiences; Adoption of Cleaner Technologies; Pollution Control through Preventative Strategies; Setting up of environmental standards for emissions and effluents; Scientific Management of Hazardous Waste including Bio-medical Waste and Networking of Institutions for sharing and exchanges of environmental information

A multi pronged approach combining enforcement of standards, control mechanisms as well as economic instruments are used to deal with the prevention and control of pollution. Great emphasis is given to the formulation of emission and effluent standards for various categories of industries and their implementation through regular monitoring for environmental compliance.

The legislation for pollution control include:

▪ Water (Prevention and Control) Act, 1974; ▪ Air (Prevention and Control) Act, 1981; ▪ Hazardous Waste (Management and Handling) rules, 1989; and ▪ Bio Medical Waste (Management and Handling) rules, 1998

The Indian government came to realise that Small Scale Industries (SSI) contributes to pollution in a major way due to financial constraints and training manpower. This prompted government to undertake a Centrally Sponsored Scheme enabling SSI businesses to set up Common Effluent Treatment Plants (CETP) to control pollution. The Indian government also gives financial support to various State Pollution Control Boards, Universities and Technical Institutions for upgrading of technologies and capacity building, ensuring better environmental management.

A charter on Corporate Responsibility for Environmental Protection (CREP) has been introduced as a road map for the adoption of improved environmental management practices. With the introduction of various control measures, pollution has been decreased together with an improvement in environmental quality.

1. Challenges facing India

The major problems facing India are the issues of food security for a ever growing population, which has been addressed by the Government of India’s huge capital investment made in GMO technology. The Indian government foresees that in the next 20 years India will be self sufficient with regard to food and wheat security.

Tourism Development is also a problem as India lacks a proper tourism infrastructure, which is being addressed by the Ministry of Tourism under the Incredible India Campaign.

Under this campaign, the infrastructure is being upgraded and computerised, making it more user friendly and has also initiated tourism awareness programmes. D. Conclusion and Recommendation

Having undertaken the study tour the Committee has noted how India is addressing the issues regarding Food Security, Poverty Alleviation, Tourism Development and Aquaculture.

The Committee aims to give input by means of upcoming legislation from experiences on its Study Tour to India. Thus enabling a better understanding of these issues in order to contribute to the upliftment and enrichment of the lives of average South Africans.

E. List of participants

Department of Animal Husbandry and Fisheries:

Mr A Bhattacharya: Head of Fisheries in the Department of Animal Husbandry and Fisheries. Mr PMA Hakeem: Secretary to the Department of Animal Husbandry and Fisheries.

Ministry of Rural Development

Mr P Sinha: Secretary; Land Reform and Rural Development Mr VS Sampath: Additional Secretary; Department of Land Resources Mr BK Saranji: Director Land Reforms

Ministry of Tourism Mr AK Mishra: Secretary; Ministry of Tourism Mr A Kant: Joint Secretary; Ministry of Tourism Mr A Chaturvedi: Director;Ministry of Tourism Mr R Talwar: Additional Secretary; Ministry of Tourism

Ministry of Water Resources

Mr JH Naryan: Secretary; Ministry of Water Resources

Department of Environment and Forest Conservation

Mr S Chandra: Special Cell; Forestry Conservation Ms M Gupta: Special Cell; Environment and Forest Conservation

Department of Fisheries; Government of West Bengal

Mr K Nanda: Minister in Charge; Department of Fisheries; Government of West Bengal Mr RPS Kahlon: Secretary; Fisheries Department; Government of West Bengal

Member of the Department – Related Parliamentary Standing Committee on Science, Technology, Environment and Forests.

Mr PG Narayanan: Chairman Prof SD Soz Dr S Chakraborty Mr J Singh Mr DS Judev Dr R Singh Mr KK Rai Mr B Singh Mr F Fanthome Mr A Gudhe Mr RCS Reddy Mr SS Badal Mr AV Naik Mr D Venugopal Mr SR Yadav

South African High Commission – New Delhi

Mr F Moloi – High Commissioner Mr D M Nxiweni – Deputy High Commissioner Mr M Ntshinga – First Secretary: Political & Acting Economic Representative Mr SE Mayoli – Second Secretary: Political Mr SC Pradhan – Senior Advisor: Department of Trade and Industry

Report to be considered.