WEDNESDAY, 06 SEPTEMBER 2006 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

                                ____

The House met at 15:05.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY

                         PEACE AND SECURITY
                              Cluster 1

MINISTERS:

  Developments in respect of construction of new generation centres

1. Mr D V Bloem (ANC) asked the Minister of Correctional Services:

   (1) Whether there are any new developments in respect of the construction of the new generation centres announced by the President in his state of the nation address in 2002, particularly with regard to the (a) funding and (b) feasibility study on the centres; if not, why not; if so, what developments;

   (2) whether the second set of new generation centres announced by the President in his state of the nation address in 2006 will proceed; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? N1323E

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Speaker, the procurement of correctional centres announced by the President in the 2002 state of the nation address proceeded as planned, but the project was halted given the unacceptable cost escalation. We have, however, proceeded this year with the invitation of tenders for the construction of one centre in Kimberley.

Secondly, processes are under way to invite tenders for transaction advisers to do feasibility studies for Nigel and Klerksdorp. The procurement of Leeuwkop, however, awaits completion of the environmental impact assessment.

With regard to the second question, the transactional adviser is busy with the completion of the feasibility study as prescribed by section 16 of the Public Finance Management Act. The largest part of the feasibility study has been completed and the outstanding work, including building sites and final clearances, is under way for three of the four sites, namely Allandale, Port Shepstone and East London.

The last correctional centre, in Polokwane, is waiting for the Department of Public Works to acquire a suitable site. Thank you.

Mr D V BLOEM: Speaker, could the Minister explain to the House the rationale of building prisons in places such as Klerksdorp, Kimberley, Nigel and Leeuwkop; when we already have prisons there? Thanks, Minister.

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Bloem, the rationale sometimes eludes me, particularly for the first group of prisons that were announced in 2002. As a result of that we are now re-evaluating this and we are looking at other areas where we can build prisons where there are none, so as to generate employment and ensure that the young people of those areas do get work and acquire skills.

We are evaluating the last three, but the other ones that were done in 2002 were done before my time and it is difficult now to change midstream when they have already been announced.

Mrs P DE LILLE: Hon Minister, I just want to find out whether these new generation centres would assist with the overcrowding in prisons, especially with awaiting-trial prisoners. I went to Pollsmoor on Sunday and there are about 1 500 juveniles awaiting trial. There are between 80 and 90 in one cell, Minister. If these centres are not going to help with the overcrowding, we need to do more regarding our criminal justice system, as the situation is unbecoming.

A couple of years ago I got a court order ordering five departments of government to do something about the juveniles in prison. I am really thinking about taking that court order and going there to see whether they are in contempt of court or when are they going to comply with the court order. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon member, I wish more and more people could actually go and visit these prisons. This is not something that has just happened today, but it is something that has been coming on even during the apartheid years.

We have inherited a very bad system of incarcerating people, particularly when they are young and they are first offenders - the juveniles. It hurts when you see them being packed in like that. But I want to encourage members to go and visit our prisons, not because they just want to see the wrong side but also to assist with the oversight within prisons. The new generation centres will not totally alleviate our overcrowding, but they will at least help us so that we don’t have communal cells where young and older people are packed like sardines in a single cell. We can never, hon member, build ourselves out of overcrowding. The criminal justice system has to do that work and it is doing it now, trying to ensure that magistrates and judges do assist us by way of alternative sentencing rather than sending everybody to prison.

I hope that, when the committees of Justice and of Correctional Services meet, they will assist us with the work that we do.

Mr J SELFE: Madam Speaker, the Minister knows that I am also one of those people who go to prisons even when the Minister doesn’t like me to go to those prisons. What we have here is delay upon delay in the construction of these prisons. We have run out of money and we now have a whole new financing model called the public finance model. We have also been waiting for reports from transactional advisers.

I would like to ask the Minister a very direct question: When will the first inmate be admitted to the prisons that we were promised in 2002?

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Selfe, I am not sure where you get this perception from that I don’t like you to go to prisons. Actually I do. I just hope that they would lock the cell and leave you there, so that I can come and visit you after a few days. [Laughter.] I am merely joking, my friend, and I like you outside of prison. You will be more problematic inside than outside. So, I will keep you on the outside.

The delays of 2002 are really not caused by the Department of Correctional Services alone. As you well know, the building of infrastructure does not reside only with us, but it is a crosscutting … [Interjections.] Could you protect me from hon Gibson, please?

The SPEAKER: Please proceed, hon member. You are totally protected.

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: I wouldn’t like to see him in prison, but would like to see him outside. The delays have been because of the crosscutting nature of infrastructure. But there is also the issue of environmental assessments that are being done. We get delays because of that and then the costs escalate.

Then we get to a situation where we cannot afford the costs and we have to try and cushion ourselves out of that. We have not run out of money. We have the money to build these prisons and I am very sure that by next year Kimberley will be up and running, as at the moment the work is being done. The first prisoner that we would like to see going in, will go in at Kimberley prison. Ons sal seker maak dat dit nie jy is nie. [We will see to it that it will not be you.]

It will be somebody else. There are people that I am looking at here and I think they deserve to be there. [Laughter.]

Ms S RAJBALLY: Madam Speaker and Minister, it is very, very sad - are you with me, Minister? It is very, very sad to see these juveniles spending months and months in the prison cells. Minister, can you tell me whether there is a chance of having a weekend court before which we could bring these cases to let them be dealt with and the juveniles released? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Rajbally, it is heartbreaking, but again, you don’t have to visit only one prison. I spend most of time in prisons trying to check out what is going on. There are prisons for juveniles that are working quite well and the conditions there are much better.

But a place like Pollsmoor, as hon De Lille has said, was never built to be a rehabilitative centre. It was built to be a secure facility. On top of that, the town planners allowed a situation, which should never be allowed, that people could then build houses around that facility, which makes it very dangerous.

There are areas where we have courts and working with the Department of Justice we bring most of these juveniles into these courts. In Port Elizabeth there is one and in Pretoria another one. We are trying our best to get them out of the system. But again I want to assure the members and the public that we will never allow people who are a danger to society to be out of prison. It would be the people who don’t pose any threat to our communities that we would let out so they can do some work within the communities.

Last night on Special Assignment I was hammered by the SABC for releasing Dorah Bell, who has done a sentence of 15 years. I am not sure why was I hammered. I tried to understand, because I am trying my best to alleviate overcrowding but also to help those who are not a danger to society, particularly women who have households, as we have to look after their children’s interests.

Once a woman is taken into prison, the whole family crumbles. The whole family structure and the children and everything disintegrates. One is trying one’s best to make sure that these things are done properly. We will keep on trying, hon Rajbally, as much as we can.

              Lifting of moratorium on crime statistics

1. Ms D Kohler-Barnard (DA) asked the Minister of Safety and Security: Whether he intends to lift the moratorium on crime statistics; if not, what is his justification for keeping the moratorium in place; if so, on what date will the moratorium be lifted?N1338E

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Speaker, you indicated to us that Question 164 has been withdrawn with general agreement. I want to say that I’m totally unaware of this. Our questioner was ready to ask the question. In fact, the hon Dr P Rabie is the person who put the question, I believe. But even if he wasn’t, the point is that we were not informed.

The SPEAKER: I am now informed that the question was withdrawn by the hon member who had asked it. It was my misconception that it was by agreement.

Hon Kohler-Barnard has asked a question to the Minister of Safety and Security. I now recognise the Deputy Minister of Safety and Security.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The reply is that the moratorium in crime statistics was implemented on 18 July 2000 and lifted on 31 May 2001 by the late Minister of Safety and Security, Steve Tshwete.

Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Thank you and it’s nice to see you again, Deputy Minister. We do want to give the Minister the DA’s best wishes for his latest holiday.

What possible reason could you give to tell us why this was actually lifted? It is very curious to hear. I have assumed that the citizens of this country are kept ignorant about the levels of crime in their neighbourhoods. The police refuse to give these figures saying that they are forbidden to do so, except at your annual feedback session, which is giving us the old figures - as you will know. In this case transparency means survival. Citizens need these figures to ensure that they are aware of the gangs working in their areas, about hijackers targeting their areas and about certain areas being frequented by rapists. You have proven that you are incapable of protecting the citizens of South Africa. So, why are you making it impossible for us to protect ourselves? Deputy Minister, do we now have to rely on insurance companies to give us crime statistics – any crime statistics – when the majority of people in this country are not reflected in those figures because you give us nothing?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. That’s your own view, Ms Kohler-Barnard, for saying that we are not giving out any figures. But I also want to say that you look stunning today, it’s like you are on a high. [Laughter.]

May I also bring to the attention of this House, with regard to the crime statistics in this country, that we have always agreed on that and when the late Minister was there, there was a moratorium which was lifted, and you were not in this House. May I also bring to your attention that currently at all times we issue statistics on an annual basis. This month we are going to release our annual statements again and if to you they mean nothing, that doesn’t mean they mean nothing to everybody. It means a lot to other people.

May I also bring to your attention that if you are interested in any particular area and in understanding the crime trends in that area, you have the right to go to any police station and talk to the station commissioner and ask for statistics. We will always, at national level, issue crime statistics on an annual basis. May I also bring to your attention that you need to be informed, you also need to know that those people of whom you are saying that they don’t know, are actually very much aware of the various trends. You are the only person who is very ignorant. Try to understand the laws of this country and the policies of this government, then you will be able to articulate yourself adequately. [Applause.]

Mr S B NTULI: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Minister, crime statistics are not only an important indicator of the level of crime in our country, first and foremost they form an important strategic tool in the development of crime- combating strategies and resource priorities. What has been done to improve the quality and credibility of the statistics so as to ensure their optimal use as a strategic tool in the fight against crime?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Thank you, hon member. Indeed, crime statistics are not conclusive on their own. They are part of an instrument for us to be able to plan against crime in our country. But also, they indicate how best to deploy our resources in different areas. Therefore, registering our crime statistics through crime administration ensures that we are able to prevent and also reduce crime in this country in a way that is satisfactory to its citizens.

Mr E W TRENT: Deputy Minister, if I heard you correctly, you said that these statistics can be accessed from particular police stations. That is not our experience. Are you prepared to give us an unequivocal yes that if the members of a particular police station go to the station commissioner, that information will be made available? Are you prepared to give us that unequivocal guarantee?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: I am surprised that you are a member of the community police forum and yet you don’t have access to statistics to your own area. In my own area, without being a Deputy Minister, I have that access. That is nothing new. I have had it in the past. Even today and tomorrow when I go to Vosloorus, I’ll be able to access that. I don’t need to be a Deputy Minister to access those crime statistics. I am surprised that you are not able to access that. You need to find a better way of communicating with your own police stations. [Applause.]

Mrs P DE LILLE: Madam Speaker, I just want to confirm that about two months ago I was in the Northern Cape and I did go to a police station and I did get the statistics. [Applause.] I think it’s the way you approach the police, because if you want statistics and you then go and have a press conference, you are already threatening them. They have been very helpful. In fact, they actually accompanied me to some of the crime scenes. But I know that some statistics get used for planning.

Madam Deputy Minister, what is even more important in our country is that we need to feel safe in our schools, churches and homes. Statistics alone are not going to make us feel safe. The time has come for us to consult with the people on the ground and ask them how they can help government to assist them in dealing with crime. You are just producing plan after plan, but you are not consulting with the grass roots. If we as the majority do not take responsibility to isolate the minority in our society, we are not going to get crime right. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon De Lille. Indeed, crime statistics are not going to reduce crime, but it’s in how we plan and work together with communities. I would also like to thank you for bringing to our attention that if the members of this House are serious and honest to themselves they will be able to get statistics from various police stations, because that is the directive which they all know about. I am surprised that some hon members are not able to do that. But for me it also raises the question of whether the hon members who are claiming to have been refused access to statistics, are working with communities or are just here to do politicking without necessarily addressing crime matters in this country. If we are going to play for the gallery and media when we deal with serious issues such as crime, which is a concern to all of us in this country, I think we are making a very, very big mistake and we need to come to our senses.

It’s not going to take the police alone to fight crime; it’s going to take every individual to fight crime in this country. If we have to talk about a better South Africa, it requires everybody. The police need communities and communities need the police in fighting crime in this country. We all know that crime doesn’t fall from the sky; it’s in our own backyards, it’s with our own brothers and sisters, our cousins, our neighbours. We need those people; we need to educate everybody and make sure that we fight together in combating crime in this country. [Applause.]

            Investigation into murder of Mr Brett Kebble

1. Mr V B Ndlovu (IFP) asked the Minister of Safety and Security: Whether there have been any arrests yet for the murder of Mr Brett Kebble; if not, how far has the investigation progressed; if so, what are the relevant details? N1354E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Madam Speaker, the answer to this question is that to date no arrests have been made for the murder of Mr Brett Kebble. Investigations are continuing and all possible leads are being followed up. Due to the sensitive nature of the investigation currently, which might lead to arrests, we are following all the necessary and appropriate information.

Mr V B NDLOVU: There were some rumours, Madam Speaker, that a homeless person has come forward and said that he saw and knows what happened, but because he is homeless he was arrested and put in prison for saying that. [Laughter.] Is that true? If that is true, have they taken a statement from him? If a statement has been taken from him, has it been verified whether it is true or not? What is the problem with the arrest taking place, because it seems as if other people know what is happening?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Madam Speaker, I think the hon member is very much aware that we cannot act on rumours. But we also have to follow all leads in investigating this matter. At this point I cannot confirm or deny that any individual was arrested or detained pertaining to the Brett Keble matter. But may I also say that any clue which can lead to an arrest will be welcomed by the police.

Mr E W TRENT: Madam Speaker, I indicated that I wanted to ask the previous question.

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Madam Speaker, to the Deputy Minister, I just wonder whether the police or other bodies have ascertained by now how much money Mr Kebble had donated to the ANC? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Madam Speaker, maybe the hon Van der Merwe can share with us whether in his past or current life he has ever received any donation from Mr Kebble.

Mr F T MASERUMULE: On the same follow-up question, Madam Speaker: Will the Deputy Minister encourage any members of the public who believe that they have information with regard to this case in particular to come forward with such information, in that manner assisting the SA Police Service in solving this case?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Madam Speaker, may I indicate not only in respect of this case but with any other case which is being investigated, that information is always welcome which may lead to an arrest and the conclusion of such case. So, it’s not about this case alone, but it’s a procedure within the police to follow all leads in all cases. Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Deputy Minister, you took it upon yourself to insult me yesterday. You have done it again personally today. Perhaps you could focus on the question this time. The question is that it was alleged that at the scene of the murder, a motorcar was removed and washed, and important evidence thereby destroyed. Obviously, this truly bizarre action compromised the investigation. So, the DA wants to know what steps have been taken to call to account the person or persons responsible for this extraordinary and inexcusable breach of police protocol?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: We are not aware of any breach of protocol. We hear that from you. So, you will have to come forward and provide us with that information. We cannot act on something that that is hearsay and listen to you, Ms Barnard.

Audit of SA National Defence Force equipment as commando structures are closed down

1. Mr S B Ntuli (ANC) asked the Minister of Defence:

   Whether any facilities and equipment of the SA National Defence Force are being audited as the commando structures are being closed down; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, how is the audit being done? N1320E

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Madam Speaker, the response is as follows. Yes, a closing audit is conducted on all facilities and equipment of the SA National Defence Force by the Defence internal auditors. This audit covers personnel, finance and logistics accounts.

After this is completed, the Inspector-General of the Department of Defence issues authority for the closure of the commando unit. Thank you.

Mr S B NTULI: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Thank you, Minister for your response. Seeing that there have been cases in which military equipment such as guns and rifles have been used in illegal activities, are there any timeframes aimed at closure of these units and their audit?

The SPEAKER: The Minister looks very confused. Can I request the hon member to repeat the question? [Laughter.]

Mr S B NTULI: I have noted that the Minister has agreed that the audit for the closure of these commando units must be done. Now, the question is: Is there an earmarked timeframe for the closure of these commando units? I mean a time that is set aside to say, for example, at this time we will have closed a certain number of commando units and we will have done the audits, because some of the equipment that has disappeared is equipment that has been used in some illegal activities? The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Madam Speaker, once there is an indication that a certain facility has to be closed, then the audit has to be done, and there is no fixed timeframe as to how long that audit will take. Usually it will be done in such a way that it is completed expeditiously.

With regard to equipment that may be missing or may have been used in crime, at present we do not have an indication that it is necessarily the equipment that comes from the commando units. On the contrary, we have established in some of the cases that such equipment is getting lost at the ordinary bases of the SA National Defence Force. I am sure I will deal with that at a later stage.

With regard to these questions, in some of the cases that have arisen we have been able to identify that the equipment used was lost not from the commandos, but from normal Defence Force bases.

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Mev die Speaker, ek wil die agb Minister vra, in die lig van die jongste plaasmoorde wat in Swartruggens gepleeg is, waar ’n plaasboer wreed vermoor is, waar die misdadigers onder andere kookwater op hom gegooi het voor hulle hom gedood het, en die vinnige reaksie van die Swartruggens-kommando, wat toe eindelik daartoe bygedra het dat die misdadigers basies binne 24 uur aangekeer is, of die agb Minister enigsins oorweging daaraan sal gee dat herbesin word oor die afskaffing van kommando’s om te kyk of daar nie iets anders ingestel kan word nie, of is dit, sover dit die Minister betref, klaar en finaal dat daar nooit weer ’n terugkeer kan wees na kommando-eenhede toe nie? Dankie, Speaker.

Die MINISTER VAN VERDEDIGING: Mev die Speaker, die regering het die besluit geneem dat die kommando’s afgeskaf word. Ons het ’n stelsel geërf waarvolgens daar in die ou bedeling baie lede van die Weermag aangewend is vir polisiëring.

Daar word tans groot bedrae bewillig vir die Polisie om meer mense te werf, op te lei en gevolglik die gewone werk van polisiëring oor te neem. Ons het hierdie Huis ook ingelig dat, soos die Polisie aandui dat hulle gereed is om sekere van hierdie take oor te neem, ons stelselmatig van daardie verantwoordelikheid sal onttrek.

In elk geval, die Grondwet bepaal dat daar net een polisiëringagentskap moet wees. Tensy ons die Grondwet wysig, kan ons nie voortgaan om die verantwoordelikheid te neem van die werk wat gewoonlik aan die Polisie behoort nie. Dis nie my persoonlike besluit nie, dis die besluit van die regering as geheel. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the hon Minister, in the light of the most recent farm murders committed in Swartruggens where a farmer was brutally murdered, where the criminals, amongst other things, poured boiling water over his body before murdering him and where these criminals were basically apprehended within 24 hours because of the quick response of the Swartruggens Commando, whether the Minister, if at all possible, would consider that the matter of the abolition of the commandos be revisited to determine whether an alternative could be put in place. Or is it, according to the Minister, a fait accompli that a return to commando units will never again happen? Thank you, Madam Speaker.

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Madam Speaker, the government took the decision to abolish the commandos. We have inherited a system according to which many members of the Defence Force were utilised for policing in the old dispensation.

Huge amounts are currently allocated to the police to recruit and train more people and consequently to take over policing. We have also informed this House that we will systematically withdraw from performing these tasks as the police indicate their readiness to take over certain of these tasks.

In any case, the Constitution stipulates that there must only be one policing agency. We cannot continue to take responsibility for tasks that are normally performed by the police, unless we amend the Constitution. It is not my personal decision, but the decision of government as a whole.]

The SPEAKER: I would like to see any more people who would like to take follow-up questions on this particular question, because I am not sure of what is going on, on my system.

Mr R JANKIELSOHN: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Minister, facilities and equipment under the control of the commandos have been used effectively by local communities in disaster management, such as field fires, as well as ensuring the safety and security of these communities. Will you ensure that this equipment and the facilities continue to be used in these capacities to support local communities, so that they don’t just gather dust in the SA National Defence Force stores?

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Madam Speaker, the secondary function of the SANDF is to support all other departments, including safety and security, in dealing with issues where disasters arise etc. As we hand over the function of policing to the South African Police Service, the SAPS, this responsibility of ongoing support of the SAPS in disaster management and other areas remains our responsibility.

If we have facilities that are required by provincial and local government, who are principally responsible for disaster management, we would gladly hand them over to make local government efficient in terms of dealing with that. But even in circumstances in which we do that, we continue to carry the responsibility of providing that back-up.

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Mme Mohlomphehi ke batla hore ho Letona le Hlomphehang, Morena o bua Afrekanse ha ntle. [Madam Speaker, I would like to say to the hon Minister, “Sir, you speak Afrikaans very well.”]

Ek wil graag die Minister vra watter vordering tot dusver gemaak is om kommando-eenhede met polisie-eenhede te vervang. Dan wil ek ook van die agb Minister weet, wat uit die Vrystaat kom, wat dink hy is die Jagluiperds se kans hierdie jaar? [Gelag.]

Die MINISTER VAN VERDEDIGING: Ek is nie in ’n posisie om u op hierdie oomblik spesifiek en in enige detail te sê presies hoe ver ons oral in die land gevorder het met die oorhandiging aan die Polisie nie. Ek kan u net verseker dat die Polisie daarvoor verantwoordelik is om vir ons ’n aanduiding te gee wanneer hulle gereed is om ’n sekere streek oor te neem, dan onttrek ons uit daardie streek. As u enige beter inligting wil hê oor presies watter distrikte van die land ons reeds oorhandig het, sal ek dit met graagte skriftelik of mondelings verskaf.

Wat die Jagluiperds betref, moet ek nederig wees en sê ons is net soos verlede jaar daar tussen die voorperde, en ons is heeltemal seker dat die Curriebeker nog ’n hele paar jaar in die Vrystaat sal bly. Dankie! [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[I would like to ask the Minister what progress has thus far been made to replace the commando units with police units. Then I would also like to know from the hon Minister, who hails from the Free State, what he thinks of the Cheetahs’ chances this year? [Laughter.]

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: I am not in a position, at this stage, to tell you exactly or in any detail what progress we have made throughout the country with the handover to the police. I can only assure you that the police are responsible for giving us an indication of their readiness to take over a certain region, and then we can withdraw from that region. If you want any detailed information on exactly which districts of the country have been handed over, I will gladly provide it to you in writing or verbally.

With regard to the Cheetahs, I should be humble and say that, like last year, we are amongst the leaders of the pack, and we are absolutely certain that the Curry Cup will stay in the Free State for a couple of years to come. Thank you! [Applause.]]

Implementation of recommendations of committee that investigated farm
                               murders

1. Mr P J Groenewald (FF Plus) asked the Minister of Safety and Security:

   (1) Whether the recommendations as contained in the report of 31 July 2003 by the committee which investigated farm murders were accepted; if not, why not; if so,

   (2) whether these recommendations have been implemented; if not, why not? N952E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The answer to the first part of the question is yes. The answer to the second part of the question is yes, recommendations applicable to the SA Police Service have been implemented.

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Mev die Speaker, ek sou graag met die agb Adjunkminister in debat wou getree het om te hoor wat hulle geïmplementeer het. My kantoor is eergister geskakel deur die agb Minister se kantoor om te vra of ons nog ’n afskrif het van die verslag wat oor plaasmoorde opgestel is, omdat hulle dit nie eens meer het nie.

Die probleem is dat daar ondersoeke gedoen word en dan word dit net eenvoudig op ’n rak gesit en daar word geen verdere uitvoering aan daardie verslag gegee nie. Ek is jammer om vir die agb Adjunkminister te sê ek verskil met haar; daar is nie uitvoering gegee aan die aanbevelings nie. Onder andere is van die aanbevelings dat die agb Minister van Veiligheid en Sekuriteit met die agb Minister vir Landbou en Grondsake sal skakel met betrekking tot grondhervorming.

Dit het nie plaasgevind nie, tensy die agb Adjunkminister vir my sê dit het plaasgevind, en dan wil ek weet watter aspekte en watter aanbevelings is dan geïmplementeer as die agb Adjunkminister sê dit is geïmplementeer. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Madam Speaker, I would like to have entered into a discussion with the hon Deputy Minister to establish what they have implemented. The day before yesterday my office received a call from the hon Minister’s office to find out whether we have another copy of the report on farm murders that was drawn up, because they no longer even have a copy.

The trouble is that investigations take place, and then it is merely shelved and no further action is taken to implement that report. I regret to inform the hon Minister that I beg to differ with her; the recommendations were not implemented. The recommendations include among other things that the hon Minister of Safety and Security should liaise with the Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs with regard to land reform.

This did not happen, unless the hon Deputy Minister is telling me that it did in fact take place, and in that case I would like to know which aspects and furthermore which recommendations were implemented if the hon Minister is saying that it has been implemented.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Hon member, there is nothing wrong in the office when it seeks clarity about a particular matter. The report is there; it is not gathering dust; it has been implemented. There is nothing wrong with them asking you. Is it wrong? We have the report, we have looked at the report, and it deals with the issue of farm murder.

The issue of the commandos, which the hon Minister of Defence was dealing with, is part of the recommendations in that report. As you well know and are very much aware, the issues around farm killings are being addressed as part of the sector policing. You can say yes or no, but the other issue as you well know is that the Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs, together with my Minister - even with the predecessor of Land Affairs - have been meeting with the Minister to address the matter and to take the matter further. When the President was in the Free State these issues were raised with him and a commitment was made to the President that these matters were going to be addressed. But, together, at the level of the working group of the Presidency, matters regarding farm murders have been addressed together with the President. The recommendations contained in that report are being addressed. So I don’t know what debate you are looking for, when work has been done around issues of recommendations and they are being implemented.

Ms J E SOSIBO: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Deputy Minister, the report also makes recommendations in so far as steps that the rural community can take, and that affect private security companies operating in rural areas. Examples are that communities adopt a proactive approach and ensure rural residents’ involvement in community policing forums, and that the private security companies operating in rural areas register, as the law requires, with the Private Security Industry Regulatory Authority - Sira.

Could you indicate to the House whether these recommendations have been fully implemented, and what the status of the co-operation between SA Police Service, the Department of Agriculture and the rural community is regarding this matter? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Thank you, hon Speaker. I would like to bring to the attention of the member that the matter of the recommendation around private security companies is being attended to. Currently, we ensure that no security company exists or functions without being properly registered with Sira.

The other issue, when it comes to the Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs, as you know the previous Minister had engaged with our own Ministers, and, at this stage with a new Minister, we have arranged a meeting at which we intend to pursue matters affecting not only farmers, but also farmworkers and the rural communities. This is because one of the issues of concern is about the rural communities where farmers don’t respect some of the rights of rural communities. We think that for us to find peace and stability in the rural communities, all communities must come together and work closely in creating a much more conducive environment, good for everybody and not just for one section of the community.

I also bring to the attention of this House that the process, which is led by the current Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs, is welcomed by us because it will address some of the tensions around the issue of land restitution.

Mr V B NDLOVU: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister Mhlonishwa, I just want to ask whether you think there is an improvement, a decrease in farm attacks, in terms of the report, from your point of view, or from your office; or, is there still an increasing rate of farm attacks? If there is a decrease, what would you say are the reasons for the decrease in farm attacks?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Thank you, hon Chair. May I first indicate, hon member, that when you talk about a decrease in farm attacks, I don’t understand, because attacks happen from all sides. So I think you need to clarify what you mean by that. If we have to address the issue of farm attacks, we have to address it in its totality, and move from that perspective to making sure that we address all forms of ills within the farming community.

Adv P S SWART: Voorsitter, ek sou veel liewer die verslag met die Minister van Verdediging of die Minister van Veiligheid en Sekuriteit wou bespreek, maar nou ja! Hier is die verslag, Adjunkminister. Hulle is vertroud daarmee. U sê die aanbevelings is gehanteer. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Adv P S SWART: Chairperson, I would much rather have discussed the report with the Minister of Defence or the Minister of Safety and Security, but so be it! Here is the report, Deputy Minister. They are familiar with it. You said the recommendations had been dealt with.]

There was a recommendation on page 413, which says that the committee was not able to obtain sufficient statistical data regarding the violence during farm attacks, which is often excessive, and has recommended that Sira conduct further research into this matter. I do know that they did not do so.

Adjunkminister, hierdie verslag is in 2001 aangevra en in 2003 uitgereik. Die kommando’s is besig om uitgefaseer te word. Dit gaan net slegter. Ons mense word vermoor, verkrag, gemartel en beroof.

Adjunk Nasionale Kommissaris Pruis het my op 25 September 2003 die versekering gegee dat daar teen 2006 150 000 polisielede sal wees waarvan meer as die helfte in sektorpolisiëring sal werk, asook die 35 000 reserviste wat teen 2006, vanjaar, in plek moet wees … (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Deputy Minister, this report was requested in 2001 and released in 2003. The commandos are being phased out. Things are only getting worse. Our people are being murdered, raped, tortured and robbed.

On 25 September 2003, Deputy National Commissioner Pruis assured me that there would be 150 000 members of the police force by 2006, more than half of whom would be working in sector policing, as well as the 35 000 reservists who must be in place by this year, 2006 …]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O BAPELA): Hon member, your time has expired.

Adv P S SWART: I just want to have some answers to those questions, please.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Hon member, don’t be selective in the report. Don’t pick on what suits you, because that is what you are doing. The issue of commandos is being addressed. You are not telling this House the truth. May I also bring to your attention that you cannot pick on certain sections of the community. Let’s deal with the farming situation in its totality. If we have to be fair to this country, we must address issues in an even way, not the way you want to deal with them.

May I also indicate that sector policing and the deployment of new police officers are happening not only in the farming communities, but overall. This is because policing has to happen all over, not in one section of the community only, but in the rest of the country. I think everybody needs to be protected in this country, not just one section of the community.

        Progress made in developing a legal services charter

1. Ms M V Meruti (ANC) asked the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:

   Whether the conference held by legal practitioners on a legal services charter in August 2006 made any meaningful progress in developing a legal services charter; if so, (a) to what extent has progress been made and (b) what are the objectives of the (i) charter and (ii) resolutions of the conference? N1317E

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: The reply is, yes. The responses were pleasantly overwhelming. Not only were all the stakeholders well represented, but the draft charter was also well received and engaged with intensely.

The answer to (a) is: the progress made throughout the conference was considerable. It was agreed unanimously that the charter is long overdue and that the principles underpinning the charter are further supported by all major stakeholders.

A major step in the right direction was the request from stakeholders and the organised profession for further engagement with the draft document. This is a welcome request, which the department is embracing by inviting written submissions from all stakeholders into the draft charter.

On 1 September 2006 a meeting of the steering committee took place where a number of processed issues were discussed. We are in the process of evaluating the inputs and comments made during the conference. We have further received request for bilaterals from various legal practitioners’ associations and law firms. Furthermore, we are in the process of planning for provincial consultative workshops, starting from the end of September.

The answer to question (b) is as follows. Firstly, the objectives of the Legal Services Charter are to transform the legal profession and the legal services sector in line with the provisions of the Constitution, the Employment Equity Act, the Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment Act, the Skills Development Act, etc and other government policies which are designed to develop measures for the eradication of systemic and structural inequalities within the profession.

Secondly, the resolutions of the conference were that:

 a) Written inputs should be made to enhance the Draft Legal Services
    Charter;   (b) A provincial consultative approach should take place; and   (c) Workshops and bilaterals should be considered between the Ministry and
    key stakeholders within the legal profession and legal services
    sector.

The above resolutions will contribute to the enhancement of the document, as this process enables the legal community to make inputs to its transformation in line with government policies. Thank you.

Ms M V MERUTI: Ke a leboga, Modulasetulo. Motlotlegi rre Comrade Johnny, ga ke itse gore a o a utlwa? [Thank you, Chairperson. Hon comrade Mr Johnny, I don’t know whether you can hear me.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O BAPELA): You can continue. He will use the interpretation system.

Msme M V MERUTI: O opile kgomo lonaka ka se o se buileng. O setse o arabile le potso e ke neng ke re ke a e botsa. Tota ke boitumelo go bona diphetogo tse di leng teng mo lefapheng. Mmuso o o eteletsweng pele ke ANC, o tokafatsa matshelo a batho ka mekgwa e le mentsi e e itumedisang. Freedom Charter ya rona ya re, rotlhe re a lekana fa pele ga molao. Ga go ope yo o tla latlhelwang mo kgolegelong kwa ntle ga boatlhodi jo bo sa gobeleleng. [Nako e fedile.] (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)

[Ms M V Meruti: What you said is true. You‘ve already answered the question that I intended to ask. It is very exciting to see transformation taking place in the department. The ANC-led government improves the lives of people in many exciting ways. Our freedom charter says that we are all equal before the law. No one will be sent to jail without fair judgment. [Time expired.]]

Can I just ask my question? [Laughter.]

Gantsi babueledi ga ba rate go isa ditiro tsa bona kwa metsengselegae. Legal Service Charter e tlile go re tswela mosola jang mo ntlheng eo? [In most cases lawyers do not like to take their services to the rural areas. How is the Legal Services Charter going to help us in that regard?]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O BAPELA): Hon Deputy Minister, I hope you are still listening to the interpretation there.

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chair, may I thank the hon member for the question. I think the issue she is raising, that particularly in vulnerable communities and rural areas there is a great difficulty with the provision of legal services, is exactly what we are trying to address in this matter. It would have been easy for us just to go and look at the legal profession and address that, but what we are looking at is the provision of legal services across the board. And we must get away from this elitist view that the only people that can provide these services are lawyers, advocates and attorneys. Anyone who was involved in the struggle knows the role that we used to have with our advice clinics. Those clinics were amazing in terms of empowering communities and so on. We’ve started the whole process here, of course, and the dialogue will look at the legal profession and the advocates and attorneys. But the bigger issue we are looking at is access to legal services and what kind of legal services there should be and how we want to regulate those legal services. Hopefully, through the further provincial consultation and the inputs we are going to receive, we will then holistically as a government be able to look at how we want to regulate legal services, and not only the professions. Thank you very much for the question.

Mrs S M CAMERER: Chairperson, I received an invitation from the Department of Justice to attend this indaba the day before it happened. We are used to this sort of thing and I was interested to hear the Deputy Minster’s version. Is the Deputy Minister aware that top lawyers were also asked to attend the indaba and speak and act as facilitators and rapporteurs at the last minute? Is the Deputy Minister aware that representative legal bodies have complained that there was no consultation with stakeholders, on either the form or content, before the draft charter was tabled? And that because of no prior consultation, delegates to the indaba had no mandate and many leading members of the profession could not attend and speakers were ill prepared?

Does the Deputy Minister acknowledge that the steering committee which compiled the charter is unbalanced in favour of the department and government, as alleged by many members of the legal profession? The result is that much of the charter has been rejected by the legal profession as the Deputy Minister is well aware, which was not the greatest of style. Finally, how does the department expect to get buy-in from the profession under these circumstances? Thank you. [Time expired.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Firstly, hon member, you were not missed at all. I want to assure you of that. You were not missed at all. Whatever inputs you would have made, we did not miss them at all. But, hon member, if you would like to give further inputs, please go to the provincial conferences and do even give us some inputs in writing. It will be very good to see what you put in writing. [Interjections.]

Jis, maar julle kan darem aankarring! [Gosh, but you can go on and on.]

The second issue I want to raise is that it is the steering committee that organised this matter. It’s the steering committee that comprises members of the legal profession, not the department. The only person there from the department is the director-general. The document was drafted by these members; the document is a discussion document that is starting a dialogue, Mrs Camerer! We did not ask anyone to come to the charter with a position or a mandate, because we are not going to adopt anything! You weren’t there, so how will we adopt something when you are not there? [Laughter.]

The issue is that it is starting a dialogue. From there we are going to provincial conferences so that people can give their inputs, particularly poorer communities, on the issue of legal services. Then we are going to receive all the written responses you want to give us, and all the friends that you are talking on behalf of, if you do talk on behalf of them, and after that there will be a document. We will discuss that; we will invite everyone again to a conference. By this time, I will probably be old; you will probably be old and we would have finished this process. So please, everyone must relax. We have now started the dialogue and given you inputs to this dialogue. We are going to take it all into consideration and, somewhere down the line, we will adopt the policy, but not now, not today and not at that conference.

Adv Z L MADASA: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Deputy Minister, one of the greatest impediments to general access to justice, as you will know, is the issue of language. A very important issue, language! In most instances, cases are dealt with in a language foreign to the local communities - in ridiculous cases even where the presiding officer, the lawyers, the interpreters and the audience are all of the same language, but the actual medium of communication would be English or Afrikaans. I would like to know whether this conference has taken this on board and is this being dealt with so as to ensure that the courts are using local languages for access to justice? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Yes, it is a very good and a very complex question. Obviously, if the issue is access to legal services, then the issue of language becomes paramount. I think we’ve really struggled with the issue of language so far. I want to give you the assurance that, of course, the policy of government is that everyone who appears in court should be able to speak their own language and must be provided with interpretation services to do that.

Of course, I agree with you, it is the oddest thing in the world. You will go to a court, and let’s say it’s an area where the presiding officer, the prosecutor, the witness and the accused person, all speak, for example, isiZulu, but they actually speak English or Afrikaans in court and they are interpreting to each other, while if they spoke isiZulu everyone would understand it. It is a particular problem we have with the formalism of law and the way people think of it. But you see, there are very complex issues. One of the issues we have to look at is when you appear in court in the first instance. There it must be clear that everyone should be able to speak their language. The question that arises is: what happens with the record? Do we have a record in different languages? Do we agree to one language of record? Those are the more complex issues we will have to deal with.

The second issue is what language we use in the court processes. I mean, the summonses are all in English! I have never seen one in any of the indigenous languages. If I were, for example, Zulu-speaking, there would be no summons that I would be able to do in that way, and even if one did, the rules do not. These are the issues. What would we do concerning the court processes? Would we have one language of record or would we just record in those languages and let the record go on? This is a very complex issue. What we mustn’t confuse is that, at the moment as things stand, everyone has the right to speak their language in court and the state must provide for those services. In courts of first instance, there should never be a case where someone is forced to talk in language that they do not want. Of course, I also agree that there are problems with the quality of interpretation services, but one has to try and improve that in time. But the issue of language and access to legal services is absolutely a pivotal issue in our society.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O BAPELA): Hon R Rabinowitz, did you press the button? Ok! People, please avoid pressing the buttons because then they appear here like people want to make follow-up questions or supplementary questions.

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Voorsitter, op ’n punt van orde: ek wil net duidelikheid hê. Die agb Speaker het gesê die stelsel werk nie. Nou sê u weer ons moet die knoppies druk. Werk die stelsel nou weer? Ek wil net weet wat ons moet doen om ’n aanvullende vraag te kan vra. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Chairperson, on a point of order: I just want clarity. The hon Speaker said that the system was not working. Now you tell us to press the buttons. Is the system working now? I just want to know what we should do if we want to ask a follow-up question.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O BAPELA): It is working now. It is working, yes.

Mrs S M CAMERER: Could the Deputy Minister comment on points that were made at the indaba? It was pointed out that the government also needs to come to the party as far as access to courts, particularly in rural areas, is concerned. It was further pointed out that there is a lack of legal aid services to the disadvantaged; a limited number of small claims courts; a lack of access to courts for the disabled; huge backlogs in the courts; underresourcing; large numbers of vacant posts for prosecutors; a lack of security; and inaccessibility to the courts for the disabled. Surely the justice department should get the ball rolling by getting its own house in order. Would the Deputy Minister like to comment, please?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: I don’t know where you get your information from hon member. I don’t know. I was at the conference. I was there every single minute and with regard to the things you are saying, I heard none of it during the conference. But in any case, let me make the point. You know, as you are a member of the Justice committee, that if you want to deal with issues such as access to courts, which is something different from what we are dealing with here and now, then you ask your committee to do that and we will be happy to come and give you inputs. We will give you reports on any other matter. We have always done this as the department, so I don’t know what is so strange about it.

Insofar as whether we address those issues, we are addressing them all the time. Of course, the whole thing about change is that it is not an event, Mrs Camerer! It is a process. It takes time! Sometimes you train people and you get good prosecutors and you get good judges and good magistrates, and the next day they resign and go somewhere else and then you have to train someone all over again. At any given time, it is difficult, anywhere in the government system, to say that this is now how things stand and so on. It is a question of progressively trying to make things work better. All the issues you have raised are not issues for that conference, because we only deal with legal services. You are dealing with access to courts, which is another issue. But, as I have said to you, if you want us to address those issues, you can ask the committee and whenever they ask us to come we will come and address those issues for you.

        Expenditure and job creation in relation to arms deal

1. Dr S E M Pheko (PAC) asked the Minister of Defence:

   (a)How much did South Africa spend on the arms deal to date; and (b)how many jobs have been created by it? N939E

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Chairperson, from the end of August to date some R29 560 000 000 has been paid towards the strategic defence package.

With regard to the jobs created, those are calculated from the defence industrial participation as well as the national industrial participation. Jobs assessed under DIP, the defence industrial participation, come to approximately 5 000 since we started. DTI, the Department of Trade and Industry, calculates that under the national industrial participation some 8 000 jobs have been created. Therefore, to date some 13 000 jobs have been realised since we started.

Dr S E M PHEKO: Chairperson, the Department of Defence has a programme of skilling those who are leaving the army, and I’d like to know how many of these have benefited from these jobs.

I understand that the private sector is not able to cope with the demand from those who have been skilled. I appreciate your reply, Minister, but this is just my follow-up question, as to whether those who are skilled and cannot be taken in by the private sector also benefit from these. Of the 5 000, for instance, would you know whether those skilled have benefited? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Chairperson, I’m sorry, if this question had been indicated, I would have ordered a specific assessment of how many of the members exiting the National Defence Force would have benefited from these jobs.

As a general rule, we don’t have a standing programme that these jobs here will target the people that are leaving the National Defence Force as such. I’m sure it’s only a small number of them that would have benefited from these jobs. Largely, you’ll see that jobs involved here tend to be fairly specialised, and so on, so I’m unable to give any figures as to how many people exiting the National Defence Force have benefited from this programme.

Mr O E MONARENG: Hon Minister, as a follow-up question, I want to say that hon Pheko, my fellow Azanian compatriot …[Laughter.] … preferred to use the term “arms deal” in his question, and in your reply you referred to the “strategic defence package”. I wonder if, hon Minister, you could explain why you preferred to use the phrase “strategic defence package” instead of “arms deal”.

I’ve learnt that the hon president of the PAC is inclined to use language that is used by the enemy. [Interjections.] [Laughter.] I thought the hon member was a fellow member.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O BAPELA): Are you rising on a point of order, hon member?

Dr S E M PHEKO: It is a point of order, Chairperson. I’ve not referred any question to the hon Monareng, and I think he must cease with his polemics because it is a very cheap game. I’m not going to stand for that one. So confine him to answering questions. I, myself, have respect for the Minister, and he must respect this House. We are not schoolboys and schoolgirls here; we are mature men. Izwe lethu! Azania! [Our land! Azania!] The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Order, please! Hon Pheko, you rose on a point of order and I thought that you were going to address the point of order specifically. All other things that you said, obviously, were not in reference to any point of order. So I’ll just ignore them.

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Chairperson, I think that these armaments were a strategic acquisition in the light, first of all, of national defence needs and, secondly, of the fact that they were calculated to make it possible for our country to meet its obligations on the international front. So it was a strategic package for that reason. Mr E W TRENT: Hon Minister, I’m sure you will agree with me that this country really only has a few enemies, and those enemies are issues such as crime, HIV/Aids, unemployment and poverty. Now, with the focus on South Africa for peace support involvement and disaster relief across the continent, one could speculate that all or part of the expenditure that you’ve told us about – and it’s going to be a lot more before it’s finished – could be regarded as fruitless because these are strategic weapons for fighting.

It is also common knowledge that South Africa took into service, in 1997, approximately 40 Cheetah C aircraft. Now, with these facts in mind, Minister, my question is as follows: Why was it necessary to immediately embark on the acquisition of 28 fourth-generation Grippon fighter aircraft at enormous cost when the Cheetahs still had service life of 15 to 20 years, and when there’s no conventional threat to our national security?

And what would be the final cost to the fiscus once all of these Grippons have been delivered? [Time expired.]

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Chairperson, I’m not sure that it is worth our energy to spend more time on this discussion. These questions would have been relevant at a time when this House had to decide whether to purchase this strategic equipment or not. This was the decision of the House, because the decision was taken here.

The reasons the country purchased that strategic defence package were extensively canvassed both in the House and across the nation at that time. It would be of no use to, once again, go over the issue because this will not change the fact that we have now acquired this equipment. Perhaps the critical question is to what extent this equipment is enabling our country to meet its obligations.

Perhaps I should also say that understandably, at the time when the country took this decision there was no certainty regarding the extent to which the country would face threats and the extent to which there could, in future, be an imminent threat to be dealt with.

With regard to the current situation, the SA National Defence Force is able to meet all of its obligations very efficiently and effectively. We were able, during the Mozambican floods, to move our equipment to Mozambique and we saved lots of lives. I think the international community acknowledges the performance of the SA National Defence Force in that regard. We are the only country at the present time able to provide relief support where disasters have happened, as far into the Indian Ocean as Madagascar. The United Nations had no other country available to provide support but South Africa, through the SA National Defence Force.

So I think that as South Africans, rather than regret the acquisitions we have made or even doubt the wisdom thereof, we must really be very proud of the decision we took as a country to acquire this strategic package.

Mr V B NDLOVU: Minister, I just want to know … [Interjections.]

Uxolo bo! Njengoba ngiyakhuluma lapha, nithi nizonqamulaphi? [Excuse me! Where do you think you are going to pass? Can’t you see that I’m talking here?]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O BAPELA): Hon members, yes, you are out of order there; you can’t walk past the microphone whilst a member is speaking. [Interjections.]

Mr V B NDLOVU: Thank you, Chairperson. May I ask the Minister, keeping in mind the current exchange rate, whether he has any idea what the final cost of the strategic package will be?

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Chairperson, I would have consulted the Minister of Finance on this question, if I had known. However, I think that hon members will remember that at the time we signed the contract the final cost was estimated on the basis of the strength of the rand at that time, at just over R30 billion. In the intervening period the rand did become weaker and then again strengthened later. On the balance of probabilities, given the strength of the rand at the present time, it is quite clear that we are almost at the end of this burden of payment and the country is now poised, if it so wishes, to consider new acquisitions in order to continue to strengthen the National Defence Force. I thank you.

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek wil begin deur te sê ek dink die wapenbedryf in Suid-Afrika is ’n nasionale bate, en ek is ook bewus daarvan dat die wapenbedryf eintlik redelik geïnternasionaliseer is ten opsigte van finansiële oorlewing.

My vraag aan die agb Minister is: as die SA Nasionale Weermag wapentuig aankoop, wat is die standpunt van die agb Minister; is dit so dat daar dan voorkeur verleen word aan wapentuig wat plaaslik deur die plaaslike wapenbedryf vervaardig word en dat ons eers as ’n tweede keuse gaan kyk na internasionale wapentuig, sodat ons ons eie wapenbedryf kan stimuleer?

Die MINISTER VAN VERDEDIGING: Mnr die Voorsitter, u sal onthou dat die Parlement vroeër reeds bepaal het dat een van ons pligte is om seker te maak dat Suid-Afrika se wapenbedryf self ook versterk word, dat wat ons geërf het soveel as moontlik behou moet word. Ons mikpunt is dus eerstens om te sien of ons die nodige wapentuig in die land kan bekom.

Ons moet dit natuurlik balanseer met die vlak van pryse binnelands en buitelands. Wanneer ons vind dat ons eie pryse te hoog is, moet ons kyk of daar nie vennote met plaaslike ondernemings is van wie ons die wapentuig kan koop nie. Ja, ons mikpunt is dus om voortdurend Suid-Afrika se eie bedryf te behou en te versterk. Dit help om internasionale vennote te kry sodat ons deel kan uitmaak van die wêreld se wapentuignywerheid. Baie dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Mr Chairperson, I want to start by saying that I think the arms industry in South Africa is a national asset, and that I am also aware that the arms industry is in fact fairly internationalised as far as financial survival is concerned.

My question to the hon the Minister is: When the SA Defence Force buys arms, what is the hon Minister’s position? Is it true that priority is then given to arms produced locally by the local arms industry and that we only consider internationally produced arms as second choice in order to be able to stimulate our own arms industry?

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Mr Chairperson, you will remember that Parliament stipulated earlier that one of our duties is to ensure that South Africa’s arms industry will also be strengthened; that we must preserve as much as possible of that which we have inherited. Our aim is firstly to see whether we can obtain the necessary arms for the country.

We must naturally balance it with the domestic and overseas price levels. When we find that our own prices are too high, we should look at partners with local companies from whom we can purchase arms. Yes, our aim is thus to continually preserve and strengthen South Africa’s own industry. It helps to get international partners so that we can become part of the world’s arms industry. Thank you very much.]

         Progress made in implementation of sector policing

1. Mr S Mahote (ANC) asked the Minister of Safety and Security:

   (1) Whether any progress has been made regarding the full implementation of sector policing since the last annual report of the SA Police Service; if not, why not; if so, what progress;

   (2) whether any measurable difference is evident from the implementation of sector policing; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details? N1318E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: The reply is yes, sector policing has been fully implemented on a 24-hour basis at 90% of the 128 sectors at the presidential stations and at 53% of the 1 211 sectors at the 169 high-contact crime stations.

The number of sectors has been decreased to ensure that all sectors function optimally with available resources. Support and guidance are still rendered to other priority stations, excluding the 169 contact-crime stations, to ensure implementation at all sectors on a 24-hour basis.

The answer to the second part of the question is yes, the implementation of sector policing at the 14 presidential stations, 47 priority stations and the 169 high-crime stations indicates that police visibility and the accessibility of police officers have increased. Community involvement and participation is evident in most sectors and their roles and responsibility in the reduction of crime is visible. Community reporting points, neighbourhood watches and community patrols are being established by this partnership. The integrated approach of all operational components, namely crime prevention, and detective and community service centres, and reservist and community partnerships within the respective service sectors on a 24-hour basis, therefore contributes to the success of sector policing.

Mr S MAHOTE: Thank you, Deputy Minister. Sector policing was a big part of the motivation behind the 2005 appropriation allocation to the SAPS. We understand that the draft national regulations must still be finalised and signed. When will this be done, so as to ensure full adherence to sector policing?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Hon member, the draft national regulations will be finalised within the next three months, because a lot of work had to go not just into the preparation, but also into making sure that as we reviewed the current sector policing we found ways of closing the gaps and ensuring that we are able to strengthen the partnerships at various levels. So, we hope the regulations will be finalised within the next three months.

Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Thank you, Chair. Before I begin, I wonder if you might inform both of the Deputy Ministers here today that it is correct to refer to hon members as “hon”, not “Mrs” and not “Mr” which I have been called today. [Interjections.]

Moving on to sector policing, where it has been implemented in urban areas it has been marginally successful, but where the Ministry has failed absolutely is with its implementation in rural areas.

Now, with the disbandment of the commandos and considering the fact that civilian volunteers are proving to be reluctant to fall under the police rather than under civilian control, what exactly is being done to protect our farming communities from the vicious attacks reported time and again in this country? The underresourced police are patently unable to assist farmers. So what other options do the farmers and their employees have, other than to barricade themselves onto their properties and attempt to protect themselves, as seems is being suggested here today by the Deputy?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Thank you, Chair. You should really appreciate being referred to as “Ms”, and I hope you are not intending to change that - or to “Mrs” - because that is an appropriate status for a woman. I do not know why you want to deny it.

Sector policing in the rural community is a continual effort, as is making sure that there is policing on a regular basis, and not only that but also making sure that we are able to resource the various rural communities. I think this House is quite aware of the resources we have that we intend taking to all areas in order to make sure that policing becomes effective and efficient. Regarding rural communities, it cannot only be one sector or the commandos that have to take care of the safety of the communities. I will say it again: It’s the responsibility of everybody working together. I need to indicate, in the areas I have been to, that we have seen rural communities with all sectors working together - and that is shown to be working quite well - without trying to protect one section of the community. We are confident that the partnerships, which are happening not only in the urban areas but also in the rural areas, will not only create a South Africa which is better but which also protects everybody, not just certain sections of the community.

When the hon member asks questions, she must learn to listen. I really appreciate her blonde hair. Thank you.

Mr V B NDLOVU: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Deputy Minister, sector police are key to the protection of the people. What I want to find out from the Deputy Minister, because of the killings that are taking place here in the Western Cape specifically of Somalians, is: Are our sector policemen in this area working as they are supposed to, or are they doing something different to what is supposed to be done by sector police?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Hon member, the issue of Somalians being murdered here in the Western Cape is a concern for all of us. But one also needs to indicate that it is not just going to take sector policing in trying to fight these forms of crime. This is also about educating our people, because this deals with issues of xenophobia. We have to make sure that South Africans understand that we are a democratic country and also that other nationalities are allowed to share with us in our country.

And, as the police, we have made a commitment that we are indeed going to make sure that we work in terms of sector policing and the communities and with the local business sector in making sure that the cases of xenophobia and murders, which are uncalled for, do come to an end because this not good for our country.

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Voorsitter, met die aankondiging deur die agb President dat kommando’s uitgefaseer gaan word, het hy ’n voorwaarde gestel. En die voorwaarde is dat daar nie ’n leemte in plaaslike gebiede wat betref veiligheid mag ontstaan nie. Die agb Minister van Verdediging het netnou gesê dat by die “Exit/Enter”-komitee kom die polisie en verklaar dat hulle gereed is om die rol van die kommando’s oor te neem.

My vraag aan die agb Adjunkminister van Veiligheid en Sekuriteit is: sektorpolisiëring word gebruik om die rol van die kommando’s oor te neem. Watter kriteria pas die polisie toe om vir die nasionale weermag die versekering te gee dat hulle die rol kan oorneem, sonder dat daar ’n leemte of ’n vakuum in die veiligheidsituasie kan bestaan? Tweedens, hoe verklaar sy dat ongeveer drie polisiebeamptes wat by sektorpolisiëring oorneem, die rol kan oorneem wat 300 manskappe in ’n kommando-eenheid in ’n gebied gespeel het? (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, with the announcement by the hon President that the commandos will be phased out, he set one condition. The condition is that it should not leave a void regarding security in rural areas. The hon Minister of Defence has just said a moment ago the police declared at the Exit/Enter Committee meeting that they are ready to take over the role of the commandos.

My question to the Deputy Minister of Safety and Security is: Will sector policing be used to replace the role of the commandos? What criteria are utilised by the police to reassure the national Defence Force that they are capable of fulfilling that role without creating a void or vacuum in the security situation? Secondly, how does she explain the fact that approximately three policemen, who will take over the sector policing, will be able to take over the role that 300 members of a commando unit played in an area?] The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Thank you, Chair. Hon member, the commando issue is not just a phasing-in matter, but is also about the new system. I think the hon member is quite aware that we have the reservists, which the commandos have been invited to join as part of increasing and maintaining the same capacity of the commandos or the role they played before. I think if the hon member is not satisfied with that, then we are open to discussion around those issues. But I must also indicate that in the areas in which we have engaged with commandos, with the police in the various areas, we have found reception.

The issue of police and the numbers with regard to policing, I think, is part of the process of increasing our capacity, because we all know that we need more police, but we need their co-operation, hence the issue of reservists becomes critical in encouraging communities to become involved in sector policing and in joining the reserve force of the police. This is because we believe that that is what they were doing when they were with the Defence Force before, when the commandos used to fall under them.

We believe that under the reservists, they will be able to continue protecting their communities and working together. If there are gaps, hon Groenewald, I believe that we need to come together. I think the Minister has extended an invitation to you to discuss these issues, so as to make sure that the proper defence or the property safety of every South African is maintained as per the Constitution.

Investigation of crimes perpetrated with the use of SA National Defence Force arms and ammunition

1. Mr R Jankielsohn (DA) asked the Minister of Defence:

   (1) Whether instances of the SA National Defence Force arms and ammunition used to perpetrate crime in South Africa have been investigated; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (2) whether the lot numbers have been traced to specific units and/or persons; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so,

   (3) whether any persons have been charged in this regard; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? N1331E

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Chairperson, the answer is as follows. Yes, two crimes involving the South African National Defence Force’s arms and ammunition are being investigated by the Military Police agency and they deal with the illegal possession of ammunition and discharging a firearm in a public place.

Three crimes involving South African National Defence Force arms and ammunition, namely murder, attempted murder and suicide and attempted murder, are being investigated by the South African Police Service.

Secondly, the lot numbers or serial numbers have been traced to Air Force base Hoedspruit, 21 Battalion in Lenasia, Air Force base Makhado, general support base Garrison Thaba Tswane and general support base Polokwane. Finally, four of the five accused have been charged whilst the fifth has since died.

Mr R JANKIELSOHN: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, arising from your reply, over the past few years the Auditor-General has indicated that control of firearms and ammunition in the South African National Defence Force remains an area of grave concern. Every year this continues to be a problem and cases have been reported in which such items have been used by criminals against the police and the public.

Will the Department of Defence and the South African National Defence Force management ensure that the Auditor-General’s concerns are acted upon? Furthermore, will they take responsibility every time a crime is committed using the South African National Defence Force’s arms and ammunition against our police and our citizens? This is first and foremost a management and discipline problem. Thank you, Chairperson. The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Chairperson, we have already implemented a process of review of the logistical control of our equipment, but I think I must draw the attention of the hon members to the following reality. Given the fact that more than 50 000 men and women are at work, it is not possible to avoid entirely incidents where some individuals, for reasons way beyond our control, turn their back on the law. Take for instance the case of the officer who took his properly issued service rifle and, for reasons that no one can explain, went and shot his wife and children and committed suicide himself. No one could have predicted that an aberration of this nature might happen.

Every service, be it correctional services, safety and security, the defence force or any service where men and women are armed with equipment of this nature, must of course expect that. Looking at this, I think there are five cases I am referring to here.

In some cases weapons were stolen and given to a right-wing group to go and bomb facilities. Now no one would have predicted that some of the white soldiers there are still members of right-wing groups that are trying to sabotage government. So they take these weapons and they do that. It is not a majority. It is a small group.

Then you have someone with a service revolver who commits suicide. I would say these are not incidents that would suggest that there is a general collapse of logistical control or indiscipline. Those are the kinds of incidents that are not pleasant and are not wanted, but which can be expected under the circumstances.

Mr J SCHIPPERS: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, I also want to thank you for your accurate and specific answer. I think the hon member got more than he bargained for.

Minister, the alleged crimes that you mentioned in your elaborate answer are a bad reflection on our Defence Force and need to be dealt with promptly and decisively. It indicates that there are a few bad apples in the basket, figuratively speaking. We know for sure that your answer will be headlines in the media tomorrow, so can you give us a clear-cut message to would-be perpetrators out there in order to rid our Defence Force of bad influences and bad behaviour? Thank you, Minister.

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Chairperson, first and foremost, within the National Defence Force there is a daily reminder to the members of the force of the code of service, intended to reinforce the discipline and the orientation of our members.

It is very important that all of us should confirm the reality that there are extremely high levels of violence in our society; the incidence of individuals frustrated by debt, frustrated by love affairs, frustrated by such social things who resort to killing their children, killing themselves and doing things like that. These are the kind of crimes that in some cases suggest that these are individuals who require psychological attention. But as a society as a whole it is important for us to educate people that the solution to any problem cannot be the taking of either one’s own life, the life of a loved one or the life of a neighbour. Beyond that point the normal mechanisms of proper management and logistical controls, from the point of view of the National Defence Force, are kept in place and we will continue to improve wherever weaknesses may arise.

Mr V B NDLOVU: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, if there’s a junior soldier who has been found guilty of stealing firearms and ammunition and and giving them to right-wingers - I’m using the example that you used - then what about the senior person who is supposed to be supervising that person?

Let’s say we find the junior member guilty and he is sentenced, what will happen to his immediate supervisor? According to me, if a person under my supervision has done something wrong, and that is not reported to me and I do not do anything about it, that means I am an accomplice to that Act. What about the senior person who is supposed to be supervising that person when those items are being stolen? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Thank you, Chair. The hon member is quite correct. As soon as we identify a criminal or failure of control we don’t end by only with dealing with the person that has committed the crime. It becomes crucial to examine in detail, for instance in a base, to what extent the daily logistical controls are in place. The reason that has to be done is to check whether the officers, the commanding officer and his staff, are maintaining the levels of control and discipline requisite of a military base.

Where it is found that there is negligence on the part of the base commander and so on, the necessary disciplinary action has to be taken into consideration. Indeed, even the demotion of people has to take place. Therefore we are not just happy that we have arrested somebody who has committed a crime. We must check and make sure that we strengthen our control mechanisms in those areas.

One of the cases in point is where an officer was issued with a rifle. He continued to keep this rifle beyond its period of issue without returning it and then, of course, a crime was committed. The matter is under investigation. There has to be an investigation into why the rifle was not recalled once the task it was issued for had been completed.

Mr R JANKIELSOHN: Thank you, Chairperson. In your reply a minute or two ago you mentioned right-wing groups operating with the co-operation of members of the South African National Defence Force. Does the department have concrete proof of right-wing groups that you referred to who would like to overthrow this government? Could you perhaps substantiate that statement? Thank you, Chairperson.

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Thank you, Chairperson. Just a very short reply to this question. In a particular instance, where a number of bombs exploded on railway lines in the Rand not too long ago, some of the ammunition that was found had come from one the bases of the South African National Defence Force. It couldn’t have walked there, so somebody in the National Defence Force base had made that equipment available to these right-wing elements. That is how it managed to find its way into the activities of these far right-wing groups. Most of those people that were involved have been arrested.

Investigations are continuing today, and it shows quite clearly that some elements remained in the National Defence Force, not out of loyalty to national defence, to the Constitution and so on, but out of expediency, and they are using their position there to sabotage this government. So that is a concrete example that I could table before the House.

  Government view on arrest of Palestinian MPs by Israeli soldiers

1. Mr M U Kalako (ANC) asked the Minister of Foreign Affairs:

   Whether the Government has expressed its view on the arrest of Palestinian members of parliament by Israeli soldiers; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details? N1329E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Ms S C van der Merwe): Chairperson, the reply to the question is: Yes, the South African government has indeed expressed its views on the arrest of Palestinian members of parliament. Most recently, on 21 August a statement was issued, but the South African government has also consistently expressed its commitment to finding a just, comprehensive and lasting peace to the Israel-Palestine conflict.

The government expressed its view on the matter by condemning the collective punishment of Palestinians in Gaza which had resulted in the death of innocent civilians, mainly children and women. We then also raised our concern regarding the arbitrary action of arresting leaders of a democratically elected government – the Israelis namely arrested 39 Palestinian MPs, including the Deputy Prime Minister, Mr Nasser Shaer, and the Secretary-General of the Palestinian Legislative Council, Dr Al-Ramahi. The South African government also deplored these arrests, which in our view could only heighten emotions and lead to the escalation of violence in the occupied territories of Palestine and bring hardship to civilians and the destruction of infrastructure.

We believe that a real resolution will only be possible if the Palestinians achieve a viable Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders and with East Jerusalem as its capital, living side by side with a secure Israeli state. Our government believes that the current level of violence will only be reduced and finally eliminated once the Israelis and the Palestinians resume meaningful talks leading to negotiations aimed at achieving a two- state solution.

The South African government has constantly reminded Israel of its responsibilities to secure and maintain peace in the region, and has further called for the release of all Palestinian leaders and ordinary citizens held captive in Israeli jails. We have also called for the release of Israeli prisoners. I thank you.

Mr R S NTULI: Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Minister, for a very comprehensive response to the never-ending Middle East problem. In terms of the Spier Estate presidential peace initiative of January 2002, our government position was made clear, as you articulated, namely that of strengthening the peace camps in both Israel and Palestine.

However, given the election results last year in Palestine, it has become increasingly clear that Israel, together with its Western allies and especially the USA, is failing to accept the legitimacy of the Hamas government. In other words, they are not accepting the will of the Palestine people, because that was a clear victory for democracy.

Against this background, could the hon Deputy Minister explain whether the Spier peace initiative still has relevance in light of what has been happening, as she has reported; and what measures can be taken by South Africa, in consultation with the United Nations, to reinforce and strengthen that accord? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Ms S C van der Merwe): Thank you very much, Mr Ntuli. Yes, indeed, the Spier initiative is something that our government continues to hope we can revive. We continue to maintain the position that talking and establishing and maintaining dialogue between the two parties would be the only solution, the only way forward, in terms of getting back to the negotiation table - in fact, the way we see it would be to talk together and come to an agreement on a peaceful solution.

There are many international instruments in place, including the Oslo Agreement and the Road Map, which in our view continue to be the framework around which the peace initiatives, and any other peace initiatives as well as developments in the region, should be framed. So we hope to continue with our Spier initiative, and we will play whatever role is necessary as facilitator to enable the two parties to come together more closely to work towards achieving long-term peace in the region. Thank you.

Mr L K JOUBERT: Thank you, Chairperson. Madam Deputy Minister, in view of the fact that South Africa will soon be a member of the Security Council of the United Nations and also that we have been requested to assist in the peace process in the Middle East, is it not desirable that we maintain a more neutral stance on the Palestine-Israel issue so that we can be seen as true brokers for peace without the petticoat showing? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Ms S C van der Merwe): I don’t know if you wear a petticoat, sir – hon member – but I don’t, so I don’t think one can be showing.

But, yes indeed, South Africa will be a member of the Security Council as a nonpermanent member for the next two years. I do believe that our stance is, in fact, neutral. We take a principled position on things that befall the Palestinians, but we also take a principled position on actions against the Israelis. In my own statement earlier, I even said that we believed that there should be a two-state solution, with the Israelis and the Palestinians in secure states, side by side, and able to live in peace and security.

So, indeed yes, sometimes South Africa is asked to play a facilitating role in getting together two parties, precisely because we maintain connections, we have diplomatic relations with both Israel and Palestine, and we therefore believe that our position is neutral, although principled. Thank you.

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Chairperson, through you to the Deputy Minister, first of all I wish to say that she has the most beautiful surname here in Parliament. Secondly, in view of what she said about South Africa being neutral, we know that the South African government has condemned Israel for killing innocent Palestinians. I want to know if the Minister is prepared to condemn Hezbollah for firing thousands of rockets into Israel, killing many innocent Israelis?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Ms S C van der Merwe): As I’ve said, your Excellency … Sorry, I mean, you haven’t been … Hon Other van der Merwe in this House, we maintain the same position as we do for everybody. The killing of innocent civilians is to us an anathema, and we will condemn anybody who kills innocent civilians. This will be done by us, and is frequently done by us, in the statements that we make. We do not believe that killing innocent civilians can take anybody forward, particularly if it heightens emotions in a volatile situation such as that in the Middle East.

Provision by the government of counselling services to South Africans
           performing military work for other governments

1. Mr M P Sibande (ANC) asked the Minister of Defence: [Interdepartmental transfer]

   Whether the Government provides counselling services to South Africans who are performing military work for other governments; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details? N1326E The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Chairperson, I have had to struggle a bit to find out exactly what was meant by “counselling services.” I have been made to understand that what this refers to is legal services to those who might be serving in other governments. My answer to this question is simple and straightforward: as things stand, government neither carries the responsibility nor regards itself as responsible for providing counsel to those who serve other governments.

In the light of recent legislation that is currently before Parliament, when South African citizens want to serve in other services they will have to register and get permission. We will build into that making sure that such people are to be informed as to what the obligations are; our obligations as a country, international law and so on. Of course, by doing this we would then have discharged our responsibility in providing the necessary guidance to them.

Mr M P SIBANDE: Chairperson, I want to thank the hon Minister. Minister, I think what you said is correct but, furthermore, Minister, it is our understanding that government has no financial and legal responsibility in the case where an individual contracted to a foreign country or private military company experiences a breach of contract with that foreign country or private military company, or in case of unnatural death whilst under the said contract. Can the Minister confirm whether he shares this understanding?

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Chairperson, it is correct indeed in the same way for those who are serving in foreign defence forces, that when they are rewarded for their services there, this is their personal income. It is important for us to provide guidance for people, because South Africa cannot then be expected to carry responsibilities beyond legal and constitutional responsibilities. Therefore, indeed, the understanding that the hon member is putting forward is in keeping with our understanding.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O BAPELA): Thank you, hon Minister. The time allocated for questions has expired. Outstanding replies received will be printed in Hansard.

See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.

      CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF JOINT MONITORING COMMITTEE ON  IMPROVEMENT OF QUALITY OF LIFE AND STATUS OF WOMEN – 2006 QUARTERLY REPORT

Ms M R MORUTOA: Hon Chairperson, hon Ministers, Deputy Ministers, hon Members of Parliament, and all distinguished guests present in the public gallery, the Joint Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Women received a mandate from Parliament to monitor and evaluate progress with regard to the improvement of the quality of life and the status of women in South Africa. Our main concern is the implementation of the policies and laws that will ensure this equality.

The statistics cited in sections of the previous reports have prompted many national public debates and galvanised community-based activism and NGO intervention. The extent of the problem was also recognised by the ANC government relatively early in its tenure.

In our report we spoke more on poverty and what this government has done to close the gaps. Parliament has passed several laws aimed at improving the quality of life and equity for women. The recent equality review campaign launched by Madam Speaker is aimed at measuring to what extent the past 12 years’ policies and legislation for equality have really worked, particularly for women. That is where the committee’s focus will be in the third quarter of 2006.

As far as gender equality is concerned, the private sector has an important contribution to make towards the achievement of gender equality. The increased participation of women in the labour market and in the economy in general is a positive for developing a strong and broad skills base for the economy. The challenge is to ensure that this leads to women’s economic empowerment and does not further exacerbate inequalities between women and men.

Gender equality entails that the underlying causes of discrimination are systematically identified and removed in order to give women and men equal opportunities in every sphere of life. However, we must remember that same treatment does not always lead to equal results. Therefore sometimes there may be need to treat women and men differently to achieve sameness in results.

Gender mainstreaming involves the incorporation of gender considerations into all policies, programmes and practices so that at every stage an analysis is made of the effects on women and men. There is no area of work which is gender-neutral. Regarding violence against women, given that women form slightly more than half of South Africa’s population, it is crucial that development activities tap into women’s skills and capacities if they are to be effective. However, women who have been abused or violated can be seen as a wasted resource because violence jeopardises women’s health and thus constrains their participation in the labour force.

Concerning obligations emanating from Cedaw – the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women - and from the Beijing Platform for Action, strategic objective F1 of the Beijing Platform for Action, would indicate that women’s economic rights and independence need to be promoted. This includes access to and control over economic resources in terms of action that needs to be taken. In summary, it compels government to do the following: enact and enforce legislation to guarantee the rights of women; undertake legislative and other reforms to give women equal rights to economic resources; conduct a review of national systems to eliminate bias against women; seek to ensure that national policies related to international and regional trade agreements do not have an adverse impact on women’s economic activities; and to promote gender-sensitive policies to empower women in entrepreneurial fields.

As far as gender and development in SADC are concerned, my colleagues will talk broadly on that. I am not going to dwell on that. The 50th session of the Commission on the Status of Women considered the following two themes: enhanced participation of women in development and an enabling environment for achieving gender equality and the advancement of women, taking into account, inter alia, the fields of education, health and work.

In accordance with its multiyear programme of work for 2002-06, the Commission on the Status of Women reviewed the thematic issue of enhanced participation of women in development, enabling environment for achieving gender equality and the advancement of women, taking into account, inter alia, the fields of education, health and work, at its 50th session which was held from 27 February to 10 March 2006.

Equal participation of women and men in decision-making processes at all levels is important. In accordance with its multiyear programme of work for 2001-06, the Commission on the Status of Women considered equal participation of women and men in decision-making processes at all levels as one of two thematic issues during the 50th session in 2006.

In order to contribute to a further understanding of this issue and to assist the commission in its deliberation, the United Nations Division for the Advancement of Women, in collaboration with the United Nations Economic Commission for Africa and the Inter-Parliamentary Union, IPU, is organising an expert group meeting on equal participation of women and men in decision- making processes, with particular emphasis on particular political participation and leadership.

Therefore the joint monitoring committee requests Parliament to consider the quarterly report to be a reflection of the work in progress. I thank you. [Applause.]

Ms C-S BOTHA: Hon Chair, this committee labours under an unfortunately long name, which perhaps causes its importance to be glossed over, but nevertheless conveys its twofold mandate; firstly, to monitor the quality of life of our women measured against international standards to which this Parliament has committed itself, and secondly, to monitor the status of women. There can be no argument that the status of women has improved dramatically since 1994. And this committee serves admirably to reinforce this by its regular and detailed monitoring of the national implementation of government’s gender policy.

I am, however, dismayed at the poor attendance of the committee’s meetings as reflected in this report. NGOs contribute very well to the quality of inputs in our meetings, which is also ably reported by our technical support, but high absenteeism of members undermines our credibility. The DA concurs with the recommendations in the report, which time does not allow me to enumerate. But I want to highlight one, namely the recommendation for a review of the Inquests Act. I was deeply shocked to hear this weekend that the reason for death of a very close friend was given as “died of natural causes” when she was twenty-nine years old, had only been hospitalised for a day and had, as only we knew, died as a result of Aids.

Die komitee se verslag kan nie die feit verbloem dat Suid-Afrika kennelik faal ten opsigte van die lewensgehalte van miljoene vroue in die land nie. Dié vroue word daagliks gekonfronteer met van die hoogste verkragtings-, moord-, egskeidings- en familiemoordgetalle in die wêreld. Daar is ’n groot skroef los en dis nie Minister Erwin se skroef nie. [Gelag.]

Ons het ’n belangrike taak om die aandag van die Parlement meedoënloos hierop te vestig, sonder aansiens des persons in die Kabinet, en om seker te maak dat elke stukkie beleid en wetgewing wat deur hierdie Parlement geloods word hierdie tendense sal teenwerk. Ons kan vandag alreeds iets doen. Verwyder die stigma van Vigs. Die lyding en spanning van geheimhouding en isolasie en skuldgevoel wat hierdie siekte reeds in mense teweegbring, is genoeg om enige gesonde mens se lewe te vernietig. Hoe kan ons hulle dan nog verder verdoem deur op hulle neer te sien? En ek praat van mense wat my baie na aan die hart lê.

Hierdie komitee moet baie meer moed openbaar oor hierdie kwessie. Ons moet sorg dat ons menslikheid, ons politiek en ons program daardeur bepaal word. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[The committee’s report cannot hide the fact that South Africa fails visibly with regard to the quality of life of millions of women in the country. These women are confronted daily with the highest rate of rape, murder, divorce and family murders in the world. There is a big screw loose here and it is definitely not Minister Erwin’s screw. [Laughter.]

We have an important task to be relentless in our effort to focus Parliament’s attention on this, without fear or favour in the Cabinet, and to ensure that every piece of policy and legislation passed by this Parliament will counteract these tendencies. We can do something even today. Remove the stigma of Aids. The suffering and tension resulting from the secrecy and isolation and feelings of guilt that this illness is already causing people are enough to destroy the life of any healthy person. How can we condemn them even further by looking down on them? And I am talking about people who are very close to my heart.

This committee must show much more courage when it comes to this issue. We must ensure that our humaneness determines our politics and our programme. [Applause.]]

Dr R RABINOWITZ: Chair, as much as we in South Africa can be proud of all that has been achieved for gender equality, we still have not successfully tackled the serious issues of domestic violence and HIV/Aids, which are affecting South Africans in large numbers - women more than men, and young women worst of all. We acknowledge that government has achieved gender equality in the political arena or almost so. We also acknowledge government’s efforts to create programmes that will assist with the issues at hand.

We support the fact that government has introduced the Expanded Public Works Programme, home and community-based care and early childhood development, but these laws although introduced have not been implemented. Like millions of South Africans, particularly the poor and the rurally based, I feel that these programmes are moving extremely slowly. They were introduced in 2003 and are now still in the planning phase three years down the line.

The IFP would like to propose that an investigation be conducted together with NGOs active in this field to identify reasons for the delays in implementing the legislation at hand. We recommend that the current laws dealing with abuse against women be strengthened, enforced and monitored so that the high rate of rape and abuse cases against women is decreased. Thank you.

Mrs C DUDLEY: Chair, as seen in the report, human trafficking continues to present huge challenges with regard to quality of life and status of women. With the 2010 World Cup approaching South Africa could expect a dramatic increase in human trafficking in order to supply prostitutes for the spectators. It is estimated that during the last World Cup in Germany there was an influx of approximately 40 000 women illegally imported from other countries. The ACDP and other concerned organisations like Doctors for Life have called on government not to ignore this very real threat and urgently to put in place measures necessary to protect vulnerable women and children and prevent South Africa from facilitating such a travesty.

Each year an estimated 600 000 to 800 000 people are trafficked across international borders, of which 70% are female and 50% children, and the majority of these victims are forced into the commercial sex trade. South African women and children have increasingly become soft targets for pimps, traffickers, drug dealers and rapists. Prostitution is most often not a choice but done in desperation when people are hurting, abused, afraid, unloved or criticised because of circumstances.

Shocking revelations around the selling of children in South Africa for sex are currently being made, yet no interventions have been made. In Peddie in the Eastern Cape, for example, it is a known fact that mothers are selling their little daughters for sex, for as little as R20 and our local law enforcement officers are turning a blind eye. The goal and the battle against slavery was not to legalise and control slavery, but to totally abolish it. The goal and the battle against women and children being sold for sex must not be legalisation or control, but total abolition.

South Africa has a long history of legalising and condoning inhumane behaviour. This cycle must be broken. Legalising apartheid did not make it right and certainly did not exempt anyone from the destructive consequences. Legalising the sale of women and children for sex would be just as destructive. In Sweden the buying of sexual services is a criminal offence. This has dissuaded traffickers from trafficking women into Sweden and led to a decrease in the number of men who buy sexual services, and a decrease in the recruitment of women into prostitution. Europol and national police forces in other European countries have consequently reported that Sweden is no longer an attractive market for traffickers. I thank you.

Mrs B M NTULI: Chairperson, Ministers present here, malungu ahloniphekile [hon members], we live in the age of hope and we are not going to rest until women are fully emancipated from all forms of discrimination and inequality.

We commit ourselves to the spirit of ubuntu, which underlies our democracy that is embedded in our Constitution. Our Constitution affirms that human beings are born free and with equal dignity. Let us commit ourselves to, firstly, respecting the worth of all individuals, irrespective of their social origin, race, gender, age, status and class; secondly, trying to overcome the entrenched inequalities of the past and present by promoting opportunities for everyone to share in the resources of our country; and thirdly, fighting poverty in rural and urban areas.

Let us fight for positive actions to address inequality and issues of gender in our localities. Commitment to gender equality must be supported by all, including churches and the institutions of traditional leaders, especially in communal areas, where women are still regarded as minors and are living in abject poverty.

The issue of landownership is not adequately addressed in rural area. We still do not have equal rights in this regard. We must work towards making sure that the principles in our Constitution become reality for all the people of South Africa, men and women equally.

Traditional leaders must engage with civil society to strengthen women empowerment through Asgisa, Mafisa and other programmes of government. Efforts should be made to mobilise women for skills training through Adult Basic Education and Training, Abet, in order to empower rural women and enable them to fight poverty, illiteracy and skills shortage. Women should also be capacitated to participate in sociopolitical and economic decision- making.

Traditional leaders should fight against verbal and emotional abuse in their traditional courts, izinkundla, when rape cases are heard.

Ufumana obaba mhlawumbe abazidakelwe nje bese bekubuza bethi: “Ubumbethe kanjani wena? Ubufunani lapho? Ucabanga ukuthi umfazi owani?” Le mibuzo kanye neminye ihudulela phansi isithunzi somuntu wesifazane. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[You find old, drunk men there and they will ask you: “What were you wearing? What were you looking for there? What do you think a woman is for?” Such questions and many others destroy the dignity of women.]

Traditional court judgements must recognise the constitutional right to dignity and equality. We must promote family values, responsibility and respect, and cultivate a family and communal environment that promotes a culture of care and generosity.

Now I would like to address inequality in churches. Let me quickly go to religious institutions, particularly under Christianity. Religious institutions have all been entrenched on patriarchy, as all leadership positions are dominated by men.

Abafundisi, abavangeli, ababhishobhi ngisho nawo amagosa imbala ngamadoda. Omama bona bayashanela, bayahlabelela emasontweni, benza imisebenzi yokukhuphula isikhwama sezimali zebandla futhi bahambela abagulayo emakhaya. Olunye ubandlululo nalo lolo. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Preachers, evangelists and bishops, even deacons are males. Women in turn are sweepers, and they sing in churches. They also do odd jobs to raise funds for the church and they visit the sick at home. That is another form of apartheid.]

In Genesis Chapter 2, God said: “It is not good for the man to live alone. I will make him a suitable companion to help him” – onjengaye, ngesiZulu [a person who would be similar to him].

In Genesis I Chapter 27, God created a male and a female. He gave them dominion over all creation, and He blessed them, both. Wababusisa bobabili. [He blessed both of them.]

He gave them equal rights and equal powers to rule over everything. In Acts, God said: “I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:”

We are equal in the face of God. Don’t fool yourself and think that you are minor, wena mama [you as a female person]; you are not. Akukho ezwini lapho kuthiwa khona indoda … [There is no verse in the Bible that says a man …] [Time expired.]

Ms S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, to attain true democracy and the values of equality and freedom enshrined in our national Constitution, oversight work in committees is crucial and guarantees the success of the process.

Crime and violence are some of the phenomena plaguing South Africa, with the latter and sexual offences being the scary reality in the daily lives of many women and children in South Africa. The committee’s dedication and commitment to steering South African women and children towards an age of hope is evident in this report. However, the MF realises that our success depends on the commitment, the desire to participate and active participation by all.

We thank the Joint Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Women for an enlightening report and we call on the House and the public to initiate the improvement of the quality of life and status of women and children. Thank you very much.

Mr L M GREEN: Chairperson, the FD agrees with the sentiments expressed in the report with regard to the format of our recent Budget, namely having a programme-by-programme narrative alongside the Budget figures.

The additional information on objectives, targets and indicators on programmes that improve the quality of life and status of women are the tools that can be used by both Members of Parliament and organisations protecting women’s rights to monitor very carefully, on a month-to-month basis, the spending patterns of various departments to ensure that sufficient funds are made available for the protection of women.

The FD commends the many organisations that handed in a memorandum to the committee entitled: “Protecting women’s rights in relation to gender-based violence.” Violence against women must stop. There are still too many cases of rape and brutality against women. We, as men, must always set the example by treating women with dignity, respect and love, and this must start in our homes. All violence against women must stop now. The FD supports this report. I thank you.

Ms I W DIREKO: Chairperson, hon members of this House, the Joint Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Women has been given the task of also monitoring how our international commitments are being implemented, and not only how our domestic legislation is being adhered to.

One such international instrument is the SADC Declaration on Gender and Development. It is one of the most important regional instruments and aims to promote and protect the socioeconomic, political and cultural rights of women. It is based on the premise that gender is an area where there are substantial benefits to be gained from closer regional co-operation and collective action.

The point of the SADC declaration is to systematise our commitment to development in this part of the world. Our government has proved its commitment to achieving gender equality by following through on this international commitment by appointing more women to decision-making positions.

With regard to the gender policy, we only have to look as far as our Cabinet to see what improvements this ANC-led government has brought about, and at the National Gender Policy Framework to find out what the government’s commitment is to acting on what it has agreed to internationally. It is up to South Africans to put the policy into action. The enabling environment has been created by government; it’s yours for the taking.

The African Union has a policy stipulating 50% female representation. We hope that in South Africa we will follow suit and make it our aim to empower women by affirming them in this way. In order to move to a nonracist and nonsexist society, I hope all political parties will commit to this ratio.

The ANC is the only party that has adhered to an internal quota for ensuring that women are adequately represented in decision-making positions.

There are a few telling commitments in the SADC declaration, amongst which are: “To promote women’s full access to and control over productive resources such as land, livestock, markets, credit, modern technology, informal employment and a quality life, in order to reduce the level of poverty”.

South Africa has made strides in establishing appropriate structures and processes. It is imperative that initiatives are resourced adequately.

We must take urgent measures to prevent and deal with the increasing level of violence against women and children. Gender-based violence cuts across race and cultural boundaries. Violence against women has become so widespread in the world that it is generally tolerated by institutions of state. The state needs to enforce constitutional rights to combat violence against women.

We, in South Africa, have enacted progressive laws to combat such violence. I thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move that the report be adopted.

Motion agreed to.

Report accordingly adopted.

 CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS -  PRINCIPLES AND GUIDELINES GOVERNING DEMOCRATIC ELECTIONS AND STANDARDS AND
                         NORMS FOR ELECTIONS

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move that Order No 2 on the Order Paper stand over.

Agreed to.

The House adjourned at 17:27. _______

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Bills passed by Houses – to be submitted to President for assent

(1)     Bill passed by National Assembly and National Council of
    Provinces on 6 September 2006:


      a) Genetically Modified Organisms Amedment Bill [B 34B – 2005]
         (National Assembly - sec 75)

National Assembly

The Speaker

1. Message from National Council of Provinces to National Assembly in respect of Bills passed by Council and transmitted to Assembly

 1) Bill, subject to proposed amendments, passed by National Council of
    Provinces on 6 September 2006 and transmitted for consideration of
    Council’s proposed amendments:


      a) Corporate Laws Amendment Bill [B 6B – 2006] (National Assembly
         – sec 75) (for proposed amendments, see Announcements,
         Tablings and Committee Reports, 29 August 2006, p 1883).


         The Bill has been referred to the Portfolio Committee on Trade
         and Industry of the National Assembly for a report on the
         amendments proposed by the Council.   2. Membership of Committees

 1) The following changes have been made to the membership of Portfolio
    Committees:


    Environmental Affairs and Tourism
    Appointed:   Maluleke, Mr D K, Rasmeni, Mr S M (Alt)
    Discharged:  Bonhomme, Mr T J, Khoarai, Mr L P, Combrink, Mr J J,
              Olifant, Mr D A A, Sekgobela, Ms P S


    Labour
    Appointed: Lekgetho, Mr G (Alt), Mogale, Mr O M (Alt), Siboza, Mr S
              (Alt)
    Discharged: Ngcengwane, Ms N D


    Minerals and Energy
    Appointed:     Vundisa, Mr S S , Combrink, Mr J J (Alt), Mohammed,
              Prof. I J   (Alt)
    Discharged:  Ngaleka, Ms E, Ngcobo, Mr E N N, Mofokeng, Mr R T,
              Komphela, Mr B M


    Science and Technology
    Appointed:  Maloyi, Mr P D N, Mtshali, Mr E (Alt), Matsemela, Ms M
              L (Alt)
    Discharged: Nkem-Abonta, Dr E, Mlangeni, Mr A, Van der Heever, Mr R
              P Z
    Sport and Recreation
    Appointed:     Makgate, Ms W, Ntuli, Ms M M, Mlangeni, Mr A (Alt),
              Ramakaba-Lesia, Ms M M (Alt), Solo, Mr B M (Alt)
    Discharged:    Mathebe, Mr P M, Morobi, Ms D M


(2)     The following changes have been made to the membership of
    Standing Committees:


    Public Accounts
    Appointed:     Fubbs, Ms J L, Asiya, Mr S E, Koornhof, Dr G W
              (Alt), Mabe, Ms L L (Alt), Hogan, Ms B A (Alt)
    Discharged:    Maluleke, Mr D K

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development

 a) A report to inform Parliament of a recent decision of the Minister
    for Justice and Constitutional Development to uplift the
    provisional suspension of a Magistrate, Nr I W O Morake from
    Lichtenburg, with effect from 14 March 2006;

 b) A report to inform Parliament of a recent decision of the Minister
    for Justice and Constitutional Development to uplift the
    provisional suspension of a Magistrate, Mr M S E Khumalo from
    Amsterdam, with effect from 25 April 2006;
 c) A progress report in respect of an inquiry into allegations of
    misconduct against Magistrate K Sulliman from Durban, in terms of
    section 13(3)(f) of the Magistrates Act, 1993 (Act No 90 of 1993);

 d) A progress report in respect of an inquiry into allegations of
    misconduct against Magistrate M K Chauke from Pretoria, in terms of
    section 13(3)(f) of the Magistrates Act, 1993 (Act No 90 of 1993);

 e) A progress report in respect of an inquiry into allegations of
    misconduct against Magistrate M S Makamu from Benoni, in terms of
    section 13(3)(f) of the Magistrates Act, 1993 (Act No 90 of 1993);
    and

 f) A progress report in respect of an inquiry into allegations of
    misconduct against Magistrate M F Mathe from Johannesburg, in terms
    of section 13(3)(f) of the Magistrates Act, 1993 (Act No 90 of
    1993).

1. The Minister of Science and Technology

   (a) Report and Financial Statements of the Department of Science and Technology for 2005-2006, including the Report of the Auditor- General on the Financial Statements of Vote 31 – Department of Science and Technology for 2005-2006 [RP 162-2006].

      3. The Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs
   

   (a) Report and Financial Statements of the Land Bank for 2005-2006, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2005-2006.

National Assembly

1. The Speaker

   The President of the Republic submitted the following letter dated 28 August 2006 to the Speaker of the National Assembly informing Members of the Assembly of the employment of the South African National Defence Force in The Kingdom of Lesotho:

     EMPLOYMENT OF THE SOUTH AFRICAN NATIONAL DEFENCE FORCE IN THE
   KINGDOM OF LESOTHO FOR SERVICE IN FULFILLMENT OF THE INTERNATIONAL
   OBLIGATIONS OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA TOWARDS THE KINGDOM OF
   LESOTHO
   

   This serves to inform the National Assembly that I have authorised the employment of the South African National Defence Force (SANDF) personnel to the Kingdom of Lesotho, in fulfillment of the international obligations of the Republic of South Africa towards the Kingdom of Lesotho, to provide helicopter transport to the SADC Heads of State and Government during the SADC Heads of State and Government Summit to be held in Lesotho as from 17 to 18 August 2006. The Government of Lesotho requested South Africa to provide SANDF helicopter to transport Heads of State and Government to and from the Lesotho Highlands Water Project Area (Mohale Dam) on 17 August 2006.

This employment was authorised in accordance with the provisions of
section 201(2)(c) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa,
1996, read with section 93 of the Defence Act, 2002 (Act No 42 of
2002).




  A total of six members of the SANDF are employed on 17 August 2006.
The total estimated cost to be borne by SANDF is R 153 000.



  I will communicate this report to members of the National Council of
Provinces and wish to request that you bring the contents hereof to the
attention of the National Assembly.




  Regards,




  signed

  P G MLAMBO-NGCUKA
ACTING PRESIDENT

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. Report of the Joint Standing Committee on Defence on Employment of the South African National Defence Force (SANDF) to the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), dated 24 August 2006:

The Joint Standing Committee on Defence, having considered the letters dated: 13 June 2006 and 18 July 2006, from the President on the employment of the South African National Defence Force (SANDF) to the Democratic Republic of Congo, referred to the Committee, reports that it has concluded its deliberations thereon.