TUESDAY, 13 JUNE 2006 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

                                ____

The Council met at 10:04.

The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr M A MZIZI: Deputy Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:

That the Council–

(1) notes that 13 people had to be rushed to the hospital in Alberton on Sunday, 11 June 2006, after falling victim to a teargas attack;

(2) further notes that according to the Ekhurhuleni emergency services the teargas canister was released near a rubber factory and due to the wind direction, 23 people were exposed to the gas while 13 had to be taken to hospital;

(3) acknowledges that this type of behaviour is unacceptable and should be dealt with accordingly; and

(4) calls upon the relevant authorities to do their utmost to bring the perpetrators to book so that they can be dealt with by the law.

Mr O M ROBERTSON: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I will move on the next sitting day of the House:

That the Council–

(1) notes with concern the racist and defamatory remarks made by the leader of the DA in the Western Province, Mr Theuns Botha, against Mrs Lorna Scott, Deputy Mayor of the Hessequa Municipality;

(2) believes that racial and inflammatory remarks like these are still endemic in the DA and should be rejected with the contempt they deserve since they in no way lead to nation-building; and (3) that this Council urges Mr Theuns Botha to apologise publicly to Mrs Lorna Scott and that we as the ANC-led government will give her our full support.

Mr S SHICEKA: Deputy Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:

That the Council –

(1) notes with sadness the increase in the death of prisoners in our prisons;

(2) further notes that the death rate in our prisons has escalated from 1,65 per 1 000 prisoners in 1995 to 9,2 per 1 000 prisoners this year, and that with a total of 1 554 deaths in prisons in 2005, South Africa’s prisons have a mortality rate 17 times higher than the most recently recorded death rate in Nigeria’s prisons, which are notorious for overcrowding;

(3) also notes that, while the American army has identified 27 detainee deaths between 2002 and 2005 as suspected or confirmed murders, in South Africa during 2005 alone, 46 prisoners died due to unnatural causes;

(4) therefore resolves that this death rate, under the care of our correctional officials, is unacceptably high and that the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs should urgently call the Department of Correctional Services and the Judicial Inspectorate of Prisons, under its new head Judge Nathan Erasmus, to -

    (a) present a report on this matter and take measures to turn this
        situation around;

    (b) table the report in this House based on the deliberations that
        have taken place, and inform the South African public about the
        outcome; and

    (c) take disciplinary measures against those involved in cases of
        human omission or commission.


                         APPROPRIATION BILL


                           (Policy debate)

Vote No 9 - Public Enterprises:

The MINISTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Deputy Chairperson, it is a pleasure to be back in this House, and I really quite like this new podium. Deputy Chairperson, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, today marks the first occasion since the onset of democracy that the Department of Public Enterprises presents its budget in the National Council of Provinces.

Our presence in this Chamber is an indication that state-owned enterprises are increasingly being recognised as vital players in advancing the objectives of the developmental state and obtaining the goals and targets set out in the Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative for South Africa. It is also recognition of the importance of interaction with all spheres of government in the planning and implementation of economic and logistics infrastructure. Better communication contributes to increased synchronisation of programmes, resources and capacity, thereby enhancing the impact of infrastructure investment on economic growth and development at a local level.

The Select Committee on Labour and Public Enterprises, under the leadership of the hon Priscilla Themba, has been a key driver in ensuring that my department and our aligned state-owned enterprises, SOEs, remain accountable to provinces. Over the past few weeks they have been robustly engaging us on fundamental issues of transformation and assisting us with assessing whether we are indeed contributing to the structural changes within the economy. I believe that we are making such a contribution.

The SOEs are contributing to economic development and job creation both indirectly and directly at a number of levels. However, I wish only to speak to three of them. Firstly, by operating efficiently, effectively and economically, SOEs improve the overall competitiveness of the economy and increase South Africa’s attractiveness as a preferred investment destination. A study by the Human Sciences Research Council indicates that improving telecommunications and logistics inefficiency could save as much as 4% of GDP. Significant resources are being ploughed into ensuring that SOEs reconfigure to provide world-class, affordable products that meet the demand arising from our growing economy. The majority of these resources are being directed at core input sectors such as energy and transport.

As demonstration of our dedication to provide a secure supply of energy, Eskom has committed R97 billion to improving generation, transmission and distribution of electricity. The electricity building programme includes the refurbishment of existing power stations, the building of new generation capacity and the generation of alternative, cleaner sources of energy.

A number of programmes are already under way. These include the refurbishment of mothballed stations at Camden – two of the 380 megawatt plants are already on, with a further 760 megawatts by 2008; Grootvlei, also in Mpumalanga, where 1 130 megawatts between 2007 and 2009 will be brought on stream; and Komati, also in Mpumalanga, where 900 megawatts between 2008 and 2011 will be brought on stream.

The construction of two new peaking stations – these are gas-fired open- cycle turbine plants - at Atlantis and Mossel Bay are well on the way in the construction process. In addition, we recently announced a new base- load plant in the form of a coal-fired station, the so-called Project Alpha; and a second major project for base-load was announced.

In the area of logistics, efficiency in the port and freight systems is a key ambition, as a delay in this area would form a fundamental impediment to growth. A priority of Transnet is thus to accelerate the building of new ports, expanding capacity in the overcrowded ports and modernising freight facilities. The new Port of Ngqura is being developed and there will be expansion in Saldanha Bay. A pre-feasibility study for the container terminal in the Port of Ngqura has been completed, and a full feasibility study and costing exercise for the terminal is being conducted.

In respect of addressing overcrowding in Durban harbour and Cape Town, the Pier 1 terminal in Durban is being expanded and redesigned to provide an additional container terminal with a 600 000 TEU capacity by 2007. Further work to meet the environmental impact assessment requirements for the expansion of the Cape Town container terminal is under way.

Other key interventions by Transnet include the refurbishment of Spoornet locomotives and wagons, and the purchasing of 102 new locomotives, as well as the construction of a multipurpose pipeline from Durban to Gauteng.

The second area I would like to focus on is the capital expenditure programme, which is being driven by the SOEs. These will leverage the growth of the local supplier industry, thereby catalysing the creation of new economic activity and re-establishing related industries. Transnet and Eskom’s capex spend is estimated to contribute 1,5% of the 2004 GDP per annum over the next five years.

Spending in key areas of manufacturing will be significant. Based on our modelling, which we did together with the Industrial Development Corporation, it is estimated that R27 billion will be going towards construction, particularly the civil engineering sector; R11 billion for metal products excluding machinery; R9 billion for electrical machinery; R8 billion for nonelectrical machinery; and R11 billion for transport equipment. Those figures, I think, give you an indication of the impact that could occur in many of these industries. These are very, very large figures.

In product terms, Eskom’s demand for steel and cement per annum in the next few years is estimated to be 60 000 tons of steel and 1 million tonnes of cement. The construction of the pipeline from KwaZulu-Natal to Gauteng will require anywhere between 75 000 and 90 000 tons of steel. The positive impact that the investment spend will have on the economy cannot be understated. The development of the Pebble Bed Modular Reactor will also give rise to a new industrial sector in the form of the supply and maintenance of these reactors. It is also foreseeable that new engineering techniques to deal with the heat by-product of the Pebble Bed Modular Reactor will open many new industrial and chemical opportunities.

To maximise local benefits from SOE activity, the department is developing a local content procurement framework to be completed by the end of July this year. This framework will focus on the development of local suppliers, particularly in the area where we have a competitive advantage. It will not only seek to strengthen local industries so that they may optimally benefit from the capex spend, but it will also serve to move them up in the value chain.

A model of leverage of Eskom’s procurement spend has already been completed and is outlined in a brochure, which has been distributed to members along with copies of the speech. There is a small booklet that you should have in the little packet you were given. I would encourage members to have a look at that and speak to their business communities in the provinces. This booklet gives some idea of how small and medium enterprises, black-owned enterprises and women-owned enterprises can prepare now to enter the Eskom supplier chain. This is not easy; you can’t just come in. This gives some idea of how this can be done and there are proposals for support to do it.

Let me deal with the disposal of noncore properties as part of the process of making SOE more focused and streamlined. This is an additional enabler of black economic empowerment and local economic development. The noncore properties have been classified according to various disposable options, namely sale of the property or its use for housing, or its transfer to local government for development purposes.

Properties for sale have been identified based on their relative location, size, market demand, topography and potential. Sales, as with the Victoria and Alfred Waterfront, will be done through open and competitive tender processes.

Broad-based black economic empowerment guidelines have been developed to ensure that the disposal process contributes to transforming the property sector. For smaller property holdings, the guidelines include stratified preference for people who reside in the area in which the property is located to allow for a more equitable geographic spread of economic ownership. I would just like to stress that point. As we begin this process, there will be significant pockets of property where we will give preference, also on a BEE basis, to people in the town where the property is being disposed of.

The department will further play a catalytic role in negotiating with relevant departments to fast-track the transfer or development of SOE properties, which can contribute to government’s broader socioeconomic objectives in respect of social, residential and industrial development.

Information-sharing sessions between the Department of Public Enterprises and the Department of Housing have already begun, and the department is also working closely with affected municipalities to ensure the optimal utilisation of targeted property.

In order to make the necessary impact on the economy, the SOEs have to be financially and commercially viable entities with sound corporate governance practices. They have to display operational efficiency and maintain healthy, independent balance sheets. This requires stable, institutionalised governance systems that are able to maximise shareholder value. The department is currently developing a shareholder management framework to be concluded next year. We are also developing shareholder compacts with reporting SOEs based on clear performance targets that capture both strategic intent and the economic return.

Internally, the department established processes to improve our risk management capacity, financial indicators informed by the Holt valuation system were introduced, and a benchmarking exercise was conducted using a cash-flow-return-on-investment framework. The tools are further supported by a risk-management questionnaire to measure SOE compliance with the Public Finance Management Act, and performance risk-analysis reviews are conducted quarterly.

Our primary obligation, however, remains to ensure that state-owned enterprises play a strategic role in advancing the objectives of the developmental state. Activities of SOEs are critical for the economic integration of the second economy, and hence their outputs have to be carefully monitored. A project to model infrastructure impact on the economy, social equity and the natural environment is under way to align capex planning with macroeconomic and industrial policy targets. Furthermore, an investment dashboard is being introduced to track the outputs of capex-related projects, thereby increasing transparency, accountability and effective implementation.

Because of its significance, I would like to repeat my message to the National Assembly. The electricity problems we have, and may experience in the Cape, have driven home some lessons. A key one is that of communication and reliable information. There are a number of aspects to this matter.

The first is a consistent message on growth and the investment required to meet and facilitate that growth. What the last two or three years have shown us is that this economy is indeed capable of higher growth and that this is a very robust and competitive economy. It is now time for both the public and private sectors to internalise this reality and adjust their decision-making accordingly.

In the public sector, from the local level through to the national level, full attention has to be paid to every aspect of infrastructure, and to efficient and continual maintenance of that infrastructure. In the private sector, where investment lead times are longer for the supplier industries, business leaders must have confidence and the foresight to invest now. Hesitancy and timidity are obstacles to the growth that we can achieve. This is not an incitement to reckless planning, but it is a call to courage. The leaders of both the public and private sectors must now take personal responsibility for the training of our talented and capable people. They are the bedrock assets of this economy.

From the side of the Department of Public Enterprises and the state-owned enterprises, we will attempt to improve our communication with the stakeholders so that more information is available for decision-making. Interaction with potential suppliers in the investment programme is important both to facilitate such a large programme and to open opportunities for the largest and the smallest of enterprises. We will ensure that opportunities arising both from the investment programme and the property disposal process are advertised broadly and well in advance to enable broad participation.

We have redesigned our website to increase its accessibility and we are already achieving a higher amount of hits. For those interested in a more detailed account of what is happening in each of the state-owned enterprises, I would urge you to go onto the site and get access to the budget speech, which deals with the state-owned enterprises individually in more detail.

Let me take this opportunity, in the context of communication, to thank the people of Cape Town and the surrounding areas for their co-operation in the saving of energy. I would also like to thank the business community in particular for their detailed co-operation. Without this, a difficult situation would have been even worse. We will have to continue our efforts to save on energy over the next two months until we have the second unit back in operation. I sincerely thank all who are co-operating in this task.

The priority areas for the department for the coming year are to implement an effective shareholder management system; to ensure the implementation of the infrastructure investment programme; to support state-owned enterprises in maintaining healthy balance sheets; to facilitate partnerships with the private sector where required; and to maximise the impact of the capex programme in the economy. For this our department is requesting a modest sum of R683,4 million.

In conclusion, allow me to thank the select committee chairperson the hon Priscilla Themba, and the select committee members for their open and vigorous engagement. Thank you also to the chief executive officers and board chairpersons of the state-owned enterprises for the co-operative relationship that we have been able to establish. Lastly, I would like to thank the Director-General, Portia Molefe, and the staff of the department – some of my senior managers are present with us today - for their commitment and enthusiasm.

It has been a great honour to address this House. It’s always a pleasure, and I look forward to a lively and robust debate. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): We thank the hon A Erwin for his contribution to the debate. I now call the hon M P Themba, the chairperson of the Select Committee on Labour and Public Enterprises.

Ms M P THEMBA: Hon Deputy Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, comrades and friends, we are entering our Age of Hope, we are also celebrating the youth uprising’s 30th anniversary and we are also approaching the 50th anniversary of the women’s march. We are therefore committed to making sure that all our people share in this age of hope. As a result we charge ourselves as leaders of the government to use the instruments of government to make sure that our people share in the wealth of our great country as stipulated in the Freedom Charter.

State enterprises, better known as state-owned enterprises, constitute an important part of the organs of state, broadly defined. They occupy a strategic position in contributing to economic production, wealth creation, employment creation and the national revenue. Since ours is an economy dominated by private enterprise, the strategic role of this enterprise in counterbalancing the power of private co-operation over society cannot be underestimated.

South Africa’s developmental state, as led by the ruling party, the ANC, requires that we nurture and strengthen the strategic role of the state- owned enterprises. To do so is to be faithful to the Freedom Charter.

Our commitment to the spirit and letter of the ideals of our Constitution and the Reconstruction and Development Programme remains as strong as ever. The Department of Public Enterprises has oversight responsibility over these SOEs and is thus directly charged with making sure that the SOEs play their role in a developmental state and we, as the ANC in the select committee, will strongly assert our responsibilities on behalf of our people to ensure that the mandate of the department and SOEs are fulfilled.

When the ANC says developmental state, we mean a state that on the one hand is able to promote sustained development, understanding by development the steady, high rates of economic growth and structural change in the productive system both domestically and in its relationship to the international economy; and on the other hand, we mean a state that has the capacity to implement economic policies wisely and effectively whilst remaining mindful of and attentive to our social obligations. This thus requires a strong state.

Let us now turn our attention to the Department of Public Enterprises and measure it against the requirements of a developmental state. In South Africa our economic goals are premised on accelerating economic growth and sharing the gains of such growth amongst all our people. This is all succinctly captured in the Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative for South Africa, Asgisa. Where does the DPE locate itself in terms of Asgisa?

The department says that it is partly responsible for ensuring that SOE pricing is consistent with the objective of efficient service delivery that will enable accelerated economic growth in South Africa.

In real terms, this should translate into an effort to make sure that SOEs pack their prices at levels that ensure they are able to thrive in today’s economy and, crucially, that the prices allow the SOEs to deliver services to South Africans at an affordable price. In this regard some SOEs, for example, Eskom, are doing better than others and it is encouraging to know that the DPE says it will promote a pricing policy that supports economic growth and development.

The department is involved, as shareholder management, at both enterprise and industry level. This translates into the department having both to focus on ensuring that the enterprise is sustainable and that the SOEs contribute to the structural efficiency of the industries within which they operate. This relates to ensuring that SOEs are run in an efficient manner that adheres to principles of co-operative governance, set and meet performance targets and are reviewed against critical-performance indicators to ensure that the organisation is efficiently managed and customers receive a competitive service. Of course, the Department of Public Enterprises has to achieve all these without micromanaging the SOEs.

We can all appreciate the magnitude of the above task, especially if we consider the amount of mismanagement that has taken place in some of our SOEs in the recent past. We are also sure that the DPE is assisting SOEs in putting in place risk management frameworks that will alert them to potential financial and other risks, which will allow SOEs to better manage these risks.

One of the department’s objectives is to use SOEs as a catalyst for economic development in South Africa and the rest of Africa. This ties in with the ANC-led government’s stated goals of spreading the Age of Hope throughout our continent.

No country in Africa can grow and be prosperous without placing the whole continent on a path of sustainable growth and development and enabling everyone to participate actively as Africans in the world economy and body politics. Our commitment is, and should be focused on, the determination that we collectively can remove ourselves and the continent from the dissatisfaction of underdevelopment and the exclusion from a globalising world. In this regard we applaud what Eskom in particular has done and will be doing to electrify our continent.

One of the most important aspects of Asgisa is to ensure a more equitable spread of economic activities and opportunities. To achieve these goals, it is important that SOEs use their capital infrastructure programme to stimulate economic activities in rural and underdeveloped areas. We all know that if more of these areas had access to electricity and transport infrastructure they are likely to increase their economic activities.

In conclusion, it gives me great pleasure to state that the Department of Public Enterprises is indeed adding to our developmental agenda; however, as is the case with all star performers, we must urge them to do better. The Select Committee on Public Enterprises would like to thank the Minister, the DG and the officials. We support the Budget Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr D D GAMEDE: Chairperson, we have this debate today when we are in the age of hope. Equally, I’m sure this department is the department of hope, hope that it will address the imbalances of the past, hope that it will implement all the policies of the government led by the ANC, hope that it will meet most, if not all, the challenges facing young people today as we commemorate June 16.

State-owned enterprises have a specific role in achieving strategic objectives in those areas of the economy in which the private sector alone would compromise government’s objectives, given that private enterprises focus on achieving market-related returns on capital. In this regard, I will concentrate on analysis and risk management.

The aim of this programme is to conduct insightful analysis, give advice on the commercial and developmental performance of state-owned enterprises and manage key risks flowing from the activities of state-owned enterprises.

It is appreciated that the department has listed the following output priorities: one, to report on financial performances of SOEs against agreed targets; two, the management and reduction of risks through the activities of SOEs; and, three, the implementation and monitoring of SOE compliance with the risk-management framework.

The department has set itself the task of reviewing these outputs on a quarterly basis, and this is highly appreciated. In terms of its recent outputs, the department reported that it carried out a high-level assessment of the status of the risk management framework, scheduled to be implemented this year.

The department also reported that it has established the state-owned enterprise risk forum in which the department and its SOEs meet to discuss issues related to risk and compliance with the Public Finance Management Act. The department needs to do more about the level of compliance by SOEs with the Public Finance Management Act.

SOEs have a strategic role to fulfil in the fight against poverty and unemployment and, as such, it is important that they are run or managed in a way that minimises their exposure to financial and other types of risks.

The department’s analysis and risk programme sets itself the goal of analysing and monitoring the financial, operational and socioeconomic performance of the SOEs to ensure compliance with corporate plans and shareholder compacts, and to actively mitigate key risks flowing from SOE activities. Now, we are all aware that there have been less than stellar performances in the management of our SOEs.

This programme’s budget has increased from R7,09 million in 2005-06 to R16,72 million in 2006-07. This is partly to fill vacancies in the financial risk analysis section. A sum of R2,5 million has been allocated to consultants, contractors and special services whilst R2,8 million has been allocated to the computer service.

The increased allocation for consultants is necessary for capacity-building in risk management projects at Alexkor and the internal control review and exploration programme of SOE risk assessments. The increase in the allocation for computer services is for the setting up of risk management, benchmarking and integrated financial systems.

It was reported last year that there were instances of significant differences between levels of technical know-how and expertise in the DPE and in the management of SOEs. This had an inhibiting effect on the DPE’s ability to exercise oversight over the SOEs.

Now the department aims to finalise its risk management framework by August

1. We are very glad to hear this, as this framework will be an important tool in helping to anticipate financial and other risks. With proper risk management, it should be possible to take measures to avoid certain risks.

Of course, proper risk management needs to be backed up by, amongst other things, good governance principles, and Mr Ngcawane dealt with this important aspect of ensuring that SOEs contribute to the NDR. We therefore look forward to hearing more about the department’s practical plans for implementing the risk management framework this year.

The ANC urges all members and parties to support this Budget Vote. I thank you. [Applause.]

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: Hon Minister, Deputy Chairperson, earlier this year Cabinet announced that government intended selling off noncore properties owned by parastatals in order to boost development and free up land for those economic sectors targeted by the Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative for South Africa, Asgisa. This is a welcome development.

The DA has for a long time advocated that parastatals sell off their noncore assets, but we need more than this. We need a wholesale programme of privatisation. Minister Erwin’s commitment to the privatisation of state- owned assets seems to have faltered. His policy focuses instead on the disposal of noncore assets and the introduction of private-sector partners to the major state-owned enterprises, so-called SOEs.

This is a pity because a bolder programme of privatisation is a sure-fire way to increase efficiency, attract foreign investment and drive BEE. Privatisation is not only important in its own right, it is looked upon by potential investors as an important indicator of a government’s mindset with regard to private enterprise and a market-orientated economy. Privatisation and other forms of restructuring state assets are not ideological imperatives, but they do hold enormous benefits for South Africa if implemented judiciously.

Among other things, they generally move assets from less productive owners to more productive ones and can increase competition. Public-private partnerships of various sorts and outsourcing can also play significant roles in improving efficiency and service delivery. South Africa’s privatisation programme has been a disaster. Unnecessary delays, continual ambivalence, infighting within the tripartite alliance and excessive conditionality have cost South Africa dearly.

South Africa has lost out badly because of the slow and inappropriate process. Billions of rands have been lost as a result of government’s failure to implement a workable privatisation plan timeously. If the Minister is prepared to embark on a workable plan of privatisation, he needs to look no further than Denel. The state-owned arms manufacturer lurches from one crisis to another. It is a cash burner and a sinkhole and an embarrassment to South Africa’s good standing in the international community.

Last year the government of India cancelled a lucrative contract with Denel for 400 antimaterial rifles amidst allegations of irregularity and third- party payments in the awarding of the contract. Not only did this damage the commercial prospects of Denel itself, but unfortunately it does cast a long shadow over the Minister.

There is something else I want to address here that was also addressed by my colleague in the National Assembly and it is of great importance. During the past year that same colleague, Karel Minnie, received several letters from dissatisfied members of the Transnet Second Defined Benefit Fund.

Hierdie pensioenfonds se 100 000 lede en hul afhanklikes ondervind tans dat hulle skynbaar geen seggenskap meer het oor die volhoubaarheid van hul hoofinkomstebron in die handhawing van hul lewenstandaarde nie. Terwyl ander openbare entiteite se pensioenfondslede in die afgelope jare verhogings van tot 8% geniet het, het die lede van die Transnet Tweede Vastevoordeelfonds oor die afgelope vyf jaar geen verhogings in hul maandelikse pensioen ontvang nie, buiten die statutêre 2% waarop hulle geregtig is.

Tussen 2002 en 2004 het die befondsingsvlak van die Transnet Tweede Vastevoordeelfonds gedaal van 103% tot 72,1% as gevolg van ’n aandeleruiltransaksie wat deur die fonds se Transnet aangestelde trustees goedgekeur is, oënskynlik met die doel om die toe wankelende entiteit se finansiële posisie beter te laat voorkom.

Klaarblyklike botsende belange aan die kant van die vastevoordeelfonds se trusteeraad het die DA diep bekommerd oor die toekomstige welsyn van hierdie pensioentrekkers. Een van die hooftrustees wat die besluit goedgekeur het, is selfs ’n afgetredene van Transnet, en was by Transnet as ’n finansiële bestuurder werksaam ten tyde van die besluit oor die aandeleruiling. Hy het ook die maatskappy in verskeie ander rade verteenwoordig.

Die vastevoordeelfonds besit tans ’n 43,6%-aandeel in die Waterkant in Kaapstad. Noudat hierdie eersteklasbate moontlik verkoop gaan word, eis ons die versekering van die Minister dat die lede van die vastevoordeelfonds se belange onafhanklik van die balansstaat van die groot konglomeraat beskerm word.

Laat my toe om die Huis te herinner aan die volgende feite: hierdie pensioentrekkers het hulle jare lank afgesloof vir karige salarisse omdat hulle geglo het dat die belofte van goeie aftreepakkette gestand gedoen sou word. As die trustees van die vastevoordeelfonds is beide die regering en Transnet geheel en al verantwoordelik vir die voortgesette welsyn van hierdie fonds se lede. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[The 100 000 members of this pension fund and their dependants now find that they apparently no longer have any authority over the sustainability of their main source of income in maintaining their standard of living. Whereas the pension fund members of other public entities have in the past years enjoyed increases of up to 8%, the members of the Transnet Second Defined Benefit Fund have seen no increase in their monthly pensions over the past five years, except the statutory 2% to which they are entitled.

From 2002 to 2004, the funding level of the Transnet Second Defined Benefit Fund dropped from 103% to 72,1% as a result of a share-exchange transaction, which the fund’s Transnet-appointed trustees approved, apparently with the aim of embellishing the then shaky entity’s financial position.

Apparently conflicting interests on the part of the defined benefit fund’s board of trustees has the DA deeply worried about the future wellbeing of these pensioners. One of the principal trustees who had approved the decision is a retired Transnet employee himself and was at the time of the share-exchange decision working as a financial manager for Transnet. He also represented the company on various other councils.

The defined benefit fund currently holds a 43,6% share in the Cape Town Waterfront. Since this first-class asset is probably soon to be sold, we demand of the Minister to give us the assurance that the interests of the defined benefit fund members will be protected independently from the balance sheet of the large conglomerate.

Allow me to remind the House of the following facts: For years these pensioners worked themselves to the bone for a meagre salary, in the belief that the promise of generous retirement packages would be kept. As the trustees of the defined benefit fund, both the government and Transnet are entirely responsible for the continued welfare of the members of this Fund.]

Many of these pensioners and their representatives, like the SA Association of Retired Pensioners, and my colleague, Mr Minnie, have written to Transnet’s CFO, Chris Wells, Transnet CEO Maria Ramos and the Minister. At most, our efforts have been met with a promise to look into the matter. Often, not even an acknowledgement of receipt has been forthcoming.

The time has come for the Minister to heed the calls of thousands of pensioners and their dependants struggling to make ends meet and to ensure that the members of the Transnet Second Defined Benefit Fund are retrospectively compensated for not having received inflation-aligned increases over the past five years; the members of the Transnet Second Defined Benefit Fund are given the right to nominate their own trustees to ensure that no movement of the assets of the fund take place without their prior knowledge and consent of the fund members; the government and Transnet publicly commit themselves to Transnet Second Defined Benefit Fund members receiving annual increases at least aligned with the increases received by other public entity pension funds.

Die DA gaan die verbeterde welsyn van hierdie Transnet-pensioentrekkers meedoënloos oor die komende maande propageer. Dankie. [The DA is going to propagate the improved welfare of these Transnet pensioners relentlessly over the coming months. Thank you.]

Ms A N T MCHUNU: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members present in this House, the debate on Public Enterprises has come at a time when the government and communities are sharing sad experiences arising from Public Enterprises. These sad experiences need heart-to-heart talks and eyeball-to- eyeball communication to facilitate an emergency rescue with all stakeholders.

The Department of Public Enterprises has a vision of providing an effective state-owned enterprise shareholders management system to promote economic growth, effective management of the economy and accrual of profit. Profits gained should, in a way, filter down to the poor people. Our Public Enterprises comprise Eskom, Denel, Transnet and SA Airways.

Eskom produces 95% of South African electricity and the group profit in 2005 was R5,2 billion. Transnet’s revenue was R24,2 billion in 2005 with a profit of R3,1 billion. Denel had a net loss of R1,6 billion in 2005, and the government had to rescue Denel with R2,13 billion. The Pebble Bed Modular Reactor received R600 million from the government in 2005 and R580 million in 2006, that is from the South African yearbook. This picture is not enviable.

The total budget allocation for 2006-07 is R608 million as the R2 billion that was provided for the recapitalisation of Denel was not repeated this year, that is from the Estimates of National Expenditure, 2006.

We are at war with the human immunodeficiency virus, HIV. In war combat, a soldier can track the enemy, but the HI virus cannot be tracked because it changes its form, that is it mutates. HIV plays deadly games and that is why no cure has been found yet. Denel, working with the CSIR, has innovative ways of processing soya, which is rich in proteins. The HIV eats away all the cells in the body. Therefore one needs a double supply of proteins to maintain flesh on the bones.

Infected people should not be reduced to bones that drive family members to madness when they die. Suicide cases among infected people arise from the refusal to see oneself as a walking skeleton. That is the cruelty of the HI virus. Among other activities, Denel has gone around showing the good work it can do with soya beans. Hospitals, pharmacists, clinics and surgeries store soya for the products that we use, which are very helpful to our HIV/Aids cases. Denel and other private enterprises can help Africa in fighting the HIV/Aids pandemic.

Denel can also provide good BEE turnaround strategies by telling all provinces and helping them to grow soya in a favourable climate and sending it to Denel in Potchefstroom, where it can be processed. In this way, the poorest of the poor will make a living out of soya planting and processing. Remote rural communities may also be assisted through this soya project with “soya cows” to produce their own milk at local level. Denel would help a lot.

Protein foods that are rich quickly expire, and so it is with soya products if not properly stored. Expired soya products are not thrown away either. I have gathered that these feed growing mushrooms. The great soya bean is our yellow gold of the 21st century and that I have learnt through Denel activities.

The R2 billion injected into Denel may then be recovered through rural communities who may be actively involved in planting soya on a large scale. This is a good social outreach programme that is fighting our worst enemy, HIV/Aids. The premature deaths caused by HIV/Aids top the list of 20 causes in the year 2000, that was 4 665 410. The figures are provided by the CSIR. The IFP supports the budget and feels that help must be given to the communities. Thank you. [Time expired.]

Ms N D NTWANAMBI: Hon Chair, hon Minister, comrades and members, let me start by saying we have learnt something today. We have learnt that when it’s about Health, Trade and Industry or Public Enterprises, we will, debate about soya. [Laughter.] Thank you, Mam ‘uMchunu. [Laughter.]

I also want to correct something, which is known to all of us in the House. I do not remember, at any stage, the department or government speaking on privatisation. I am aware of the word “restructuring” and in restructuring you do not compromise the workers; trade unions are also involved.

Let me also say to Ms Terblanche that it is about time you mind your own. There is no disaster in the ANC or its alliance partners. What individuals say is their business. Let me also tell you that we have a programme that we are working on. Therefore there cannot be a disaster when there is a programme.

You must also understand that the only organisations that could have disasters or that have disasters are small organisations like yours. Let me also say something else to Ms Terblanche. Ms Terblanche, it is a pity. We know why you could not attend, but it is such a pity that you were not there to get the briefing from Denel. What the press says is not what is happening and, you see, once you get your information from the media, you will forever be confused. You’d better get briefed by the responsible people.

Let me come back to what we are here for, though. I will concentrate on one thing, and that is the corporate strategy and structure of the department. The objective of this programme is to optimise the contribution of state- owned enterprises to economic growth through delivery of core SOE mandates, projects, ensuring industrial efficiency and leveraging SOEs to catalyse broader development.

With regard to the President’s announcement on an enabling environment to accelerate economic growth in South Africa and the rest of Africa, the department will work with the Department of Trade and Industry, the DTI, in ensuring that mechanisms are incorporated into a sector-development strategy.

The President also mentioned quite clearly that the government would also work with the SOEs, especially on projects concerning large infrastructural investment and electricity, water and telecommunications. The department’s budget has been increased; I do not have to mention figures.

Like Mam ‘uMchunu has said, you also need to make sure that you budget for the Pebble Bed Modular Reactor and, excluding that, the budget for this programme is expected to rise at an average annual rate of 38,6%.

The allocation to the Joint Project Facility is expected to increase by R10 million per year for the next three years. This programme is tasked with making sure that the SOEs operate in a way that gives effect to the ANC objectives of creating jobs and fighting poverty. It assists the SOEs by devising strategies around the Ngqura Terminal, and by the introduction of operators or partners in container-handling operations.

The restructuring will also see the National Ports Authority disposing of the Waterfront, and not in the manner Ms Terblanche was saying, but in a good way if it were offered to empowerment companies. Also, it would help if we could be told what else will be disposed of, so that when we go to our constituencies we are able to explain these things to our constituencies.

The programme also provides critical assistance in managing the separation of SA Airways from Transnet. This will make sure that as a stand-alone entity, SAA will have to fulfil its mandate and bring in more revenue.

Another critical service that this programme provides is ongoing assistance with the restructuring and turnaround strategy of Denel. I hope you are listening very well now, Ms Terblanche. We are all aware that Denel had to be recapitalised by R2 billion, and we will need further recapitalisation in the future.

It is thus heartening to know that the DPE is working with the Department of Defence and Armscor to increase local market access for Denel and the local defence-related industry by aligning the defence acquisition policy and the publication of a 10-year defence capex plan by 2007.

This programme also houses the very important Joint Project Facility, or JPF, which is responsible for developing projects that improve industrial efficiency and effectiveness through leveraging the assets and capabilities of the SOEs.

In plainer terms, the project will run a range of projects that stretch across all the SOEs, and will be used to develop projects to the point at which these projects become viable business or development opportunities. Once the projects have reached that stage, investment cases will be made to relevant operational companies and, where appropriate, financial investors.

There are currently six projects under this plan. I do not have to go through all of them. I will just mention them. They are continental investments, energy and pipelines, human resource and capacity-building, information and communication, and property to lock economic value through SOEs and, of course, investment optimisation.

It is clear that the JPF is a very important project and one wonders whether a budget of R10 million is adequate to achieve all the goals it has set for itself.

In conclusion, it remains only to be said that the DPE is one of our government’s best performing departments. On behalf of the ANC, we support the Budget Vote. [Applause.]

Dr F J VAN HEERDEN: Mnr die Voorsitter, Eskom is ’n goeie voorbeeld van ’n maatskappy wat die afgelope jaar nie na wense gepresteer het nie. Eers was die maatskappy in die nuus oor herhaalde kragonderbrekings in die Wes-Kaap en die probleme by Koeberg, en die agb Minister het dié probleme toegeskryf aan sabotasie.

Ons is gewoond aan meer deurdagte uitsprake van die Minister. Ek glo dit was miskien nie weldeurdag nie. Eskom se onvermoë om strategies te beplan is klaarblyklik die enigste rede vir die probleme wat by Eskom in die Wes- Kaap ontstaan het.

Dit het vanjaar aan die lig gekom dat Eskom waarskynlik nie ’n aangename werksomgewing vir kundige werknemers is nie. Vyftien persent van sy kundige tegnici en ingenieurs het die maatskappy onlangs verlaat, en die maatskappy sukkel om hulle te vervang.

Dan het Eskom ook sy beskeie bydrae gelewer om rasseverhoudings in die Wes- Kaap verder te versuur met sy regspan se sinnelose argumente in die berugte Christiaans-arbitrasie, te dien effekte dat bruinmense nie op dieselfde behandeling as swartmense geregtig is nie, omdat hulle in die apartheidsjare glo nie passe gedra het nie.

Vir seker sal enige topmaatskappy wat die afgelope jaar soveel skade en verleentheid veroorsaak het se topbestuur tot orde geroep word, maar wat gebeur by Eskom? (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Dr F J VAN HEERDEN: Mr Chairperson, Eskom is a good example of a company that has not performed as one would have expected in the past year. Firstly, the company made news regarding the recurring power failures in the Western Cape and the problems at Koeberg, and the hon Minister attributed these problems to sabotage.

We are accustomed to more well-considered statements by the Minister. I believe that perhaps this was not well-thought-out. Eskom’s inability to plan strategically is evidently the only reason for the problems that occurred at Eskom in the Western Cape.

It was revealed this year that the working environment at Eskom is most likely not a pleasant one for skilled employees. Recently 15% of its skilled technicians and engineers left the company, and the company is struggling to replace them.

Additionally, Eskom has also made a modest contribution to souring race relations in the Western Cape even further with its legal team’s senseless arguments in the notorious Christiaans arbitration to the effect that coloured people are not entitled to the same treatment as blacks, because they did not have to carry passes during the apartheid years.

Undoubtedly the top management of any top company that has caused so much damage and embarrassment in the past year would be called to order, but what is happening at Eskom?]

Eskom’s chief executive earned R13 million last year; this is five times more than that earned by Reserve Bank Governor Tito Mboweni and Transnet CEO Maria Ramos.

But this is not all. Were it not for the fact that the national energy regulator disallowed the performance bonuses of top management, even more would have been paid to them. Is it correct that the mediocre performance of Eskom during the past financial year should be rewarded in this way? The FF Plus does not think so and we call upon the Minister to ensure and set up an independent body to investigate the salaries of parastatal executives and to ensure that top management’s benefits match their actual value to the country.

The perception unfortunately is that the poorer the top management performs, the better their remuneration, and we call on the Minister to make an investigation into the salaries of parastatal executives.

Mr N D HENDRICKSE: Hon Chair, hon Minister, hon members, there is a need for more shareholder activism in SOEs to ensure stricter corporate governance arrangements and accounting reporting standards that are aligned with international best practice. The right mix of private-sector participation in SOEs needs to be found to ensure appropriate skills input via intellectual capital.

Having said the above, I would like to focus on the following key issues. Firstly, I would like to congratulate the Minister, Director-General Miss Molefe and the management team on their professionalism and transparency around the problems facing Denel. I believe the turnaround strategy will achieve the desired results and Denel could become the jewel in the crown of the SOEs portfolio.

Denel has embarked on a cost-cutting exercise, which affects staff, by selling off noncore assets. It has recapitalised to the tune of R2 billion. The challenge now is to secure sustainable contracts for the future, especially in the sales of Rooivalk projects.

The need for nuclear energy and the Pebble Bed Modular Reactor is a step in the right direction given South Africa’s pressing energy consumption requirements, which are consistent with a dynamic, growing economy and manufacturing base.

The worrying feature of this pebble bed is an escalating cost base and how financially stable this could be. There is a need to source or develop alternative energy options for smaller towns. This could be solar, wind or biofuel energy, for example.

Residents living near the Koeberg power station have often raised safety and health concerns regarding breakdowns and leakages. Something must be done to address these valid concerns.

We need to look into investing in infrastructure especially upgrading our transport and rail infrastructure, which will lead to improved transport times for various categories of goods. Case studies in some Karoo towns have stopped because of a lack of rail activity.

The change of fortune of Transnet under the leadership of Maria Ramos must be applauded. However, SAA remains a thorn in the side: the high turnover of executive staff due to the maverick style of the new CEO is worrying especially if replacements have little or no airline industry experience. Anticompetitive practices resulting in fines further raise questions about SAA.

I want to wish the Minister, the DG and the team the best in the very challenging situation they are in, and we support the budget.

Ms B L MATLHOAHELA: The hon Minister and the House, and hon colleagues, I need to start my speech on the Department of Public Enterprises by saying that in its report it was stated that municipalities are responsible for implementing the national government policy of providing free basic electricity to poor households.

The ID relates to the ANC in the sense that it supports the pro-poor principle. Hence, letters received by the poorest of the poor regarding electricity cuts for nonpayment show there is no correspondence, and with this statement I do not blame the ruling party. It puts the poorest of the poor in a frenzy. Hence, the ID would like to have the government make a complete, transparent announcement on this. I thank you.

Mr J M SIBIYA: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, government officials, comrades, ladies and gentlemen, that son of Africa – the leader, the teacher and the late President of Angola, Dr Agostino Neto - when addressing the youth of his country in 1976, said in part: “Our liberation struggle will be meaningless unless we take control of the economy of our country.”

The ANC-led government in this country fully understands the meaning of that statement. It is in part for that reason that it will never go in for wholesale privatisation, because it knows that we would widen the gap between the rich and the poor, and that would deprive the government of the means and wherewithal to address the legacy of apartheid.

Actually, those who call for wholesale privatisation are doing so because they are used to living on unearned income. The ANC will not promote that. On the other hand, the alleged infighting within the ANC is the language of those political nonentities who are faced with imminent political oblivion. The ANC cannot be carried along with that. [Laughter.]

I want to talk about some of the state-owned enterprises, their role and how they are expected to advise our national democratic revolution. I will start with Eskom.

As a state-owned utility, Eskom has social obligations such as the expansion of the rural electrification process. We agree that the utility has done much to address some of the problems we inherited from apartheid. We need, however, to acknowledge that more still needs to be done. There is one specific area to which we would like Eskom to pay more attention, and that is that, when there is to be the shedding of the loads that you find usually immediately affects the rural masses, let some means be made so that even the urban population should be part and parcel of the undertaking in that regard.

We also need to indicate that Eskom has undertaken a very admirable campaign to make consumers aware of ways in which to save power. At the same time, we should urge and let the utility increase its capacity so as to be able to cope with the demands made on electricity by our economy and the country in general. However, it would be unfair of us not to recognise the positive aspects which Eskom has brought about. In the first place, it has improved itself and we are in the know that there are two power stations that are to be constructed – one at Atlantis and the other at Mossel Bay. These are the things we have to recognise.

We will remember that some time back, when we had some problems of outages, they indicated to us that the nuclear reactor number one was not in operation and we were informed about that. As I am talking, and you are listening, it is back in operation. [Laughter.]

Eskom also supplies electricity to the Southern African Development Community, SADC, countries. That is not only creating jobs for our own people, but also for people in the countries concerned and it is thereby uplifting the continent of Africa.

There is something very interesting. Arivia.kom is being set up on the eastern coast of Africa. It is not only creating jobs, as we have said, but is also making it possible for the continent to be interconnected and to be connected with the rest of the world. We have never had that before. For that purpose, I personally would like to say the following to the Minister in relation to Eskom: Don’t join me, I’ll read it alone! Go forward Eskom, go forward! Don’t reply! [Laughter.]

On the other hand, Arivia.com will support Eskom’s business with strategic information technology services and thus become a direct subsidiary thereof. It also means that Arivia.com will provide support for Eskom’s projects on our continent and contribute to the upliftment of Africa, as I’ve said.

Transnet is another utility in the hands of the state. It is in the middle of a process of transforming itself into a freight-operating and transport company. We accept that such restructuring may mean that some jobs may be lost, but this process should be carefully managed and in such a way that people do not suffer the wholesale consequences – not wholesale privatisation. They have successfully moved the SARCC, which I understand to mean the SA Rail Commuter Corporation Limited, to the Department of Transport. We hope that this will lead to an improved, safer and more affordable public transport system.

The National Ports Authority is busy expanding our ports as the rapid growth of container traffic makes our current handling capacity grossly inadequate. The expansion and redesign of Pier 1, the widening of the entrance at Durban Harbour and the construction of the container terminal at Ngqura are on track. Obviously, this expansion will create jobs during the construction phase and, upon completion, through the increased volumes of freight to be processed through the enlarged ports.

As far as Denel is concerned, we know it had some problems before both in terms of efficiency and other things, but we are glad that we now know that there have been positive developments regarding its turnaround strategy after the initial recapitalisation. We will be monitoring the developments with regard to the implementation of this strategy and we also urge Denel to do everything possible to have a captive domestic market for it to successfully implement this strategy.

We are also heartened by the indications of collaboration between the Department of Public Enterprises, the Department of Trade and Industry and the SA National Defence Force in order to assist Denel in securing at least 70% of the local defence spend. We trust that this will enhance Denel’s capacity to speed up its transformation process.

I am not going to say much on Alexkor. We know - and the hon Minister briefed our committee - that an agreement is about to be reached and we appreciate and wish that it comes about as soon as a minute after this. We hope that some of the land that may be ceded will encourage and enable our people to engage in agriculture and increase their state of food security, and if it is not arable enough, that it may be part and parcel of that which is used to help the habitation problems.

With regard to the SA Forestry Company Limited, we are aware that there are developments there as the state is busy assessing the role the forestry industry can play in contributing to Asgisa in terms of job creation and skills development.

The ANC unreservedly supports the Vote and we would like to urge this House to do the same unreservedly. Thank you, Comrade Chairperson. [Applause.]

The MINISTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Chairperson, thank you to the hon members who, I think, in the majority have supported the budget. Thank you for the kind words about the department and also the comments about how we could improve, and what we should do to improve.

Let me try to respond to some of the very interesting points that have been raised by the hon members as part of this debate. Firstly, as the hon Themba said, the state-owned enterprises can play a role in Africa, and this is a project, as was reported, in the Joint Project Facility. How we play that role and how we do it well is a challenge. Since we have such major tasks here in South Africa, we do need to make certain that our strategy for investments in Africa helps Africa and maintains the strength of our own enterprises here. We hope that we develop or table before you more detailed plans on this, probably before the end of this year.

The hon Gamede made a very important point – that compliance with the Public Finance Management Act is very important. I must say that I am pleased with the progress we have made in all of the SOEs. He is correct in that we do need to do more, and our compliance should be perfect. This is our target. Let me address the point made by the hon Terblanche. I heard a whisper that it was her maiden speech, but I am sure that it’s not. [Interjections.] Okay, thank you. That means I can attack harder. I was a little bit nervous that it was your maiden speech.

If the ANC, as you say, is divided, you are equally so, because the speaker from the DA in the National Assembly took a very different position. I think we must get away from these really simplified debates between privatisation or not. I would submit that the hon member is out of touch with current commentary on economic affairs in the world today. The notion that privatisation is the key indicator of investment or for investors is long past. That is not the case any more.

I think any examination of the current situation in virtually every single economy will show that the balance between the state and the private sector has been very carefully reassessed. There are certain sectors in which the private sector just does not function effectively.

What we have done is that we do not have in the ANC a dogmatic position of “we are for privatisation or against it”. We have a very economically pragmatic position. If you read our founding policy documents for this administration, The RDP: Ready to govern, we make it very clear that all actions should be taken on the balance of evidence. So you assess the situation. You assess the economic role that an institution can play. You assess the strengths and weaknesses in the market and the private sector, and you make sensible decisions. So, in each case, we have explained in my budget speeches, and the President has explained, why we have taken decisions.

For example, with regard to Eskom, it is quite clear – and your member in the National Assembly supported this – that it is much wiser for this economy and for us to keep Eskom in state hands. That doesn’t preclude private-sector involvement in energy generation. We use it through the independent power producers. So, you get a combination of public and private sectors.

But without Eskom fulfilling the anchor role, we would have a chaotic energy system. If you want to see chaotic systems, there are many countries in the world that reflect this. America is one, where systems were privatised and they failed. So, you have to look at each and every situation. You have got to look at why we keep certain things. The ports as such are a national asset; we keep them in state hands. But the port terminals are where we have private operators, as well as state ones.

So, really, we must move towards a pragmatic and sensible and correct assessment of these issues. For the state not to play a role in the developmental process is a fatal mistake, and you can see it everywhere. You need a strong state, but you need strong state-owned enterprises, remembering how we define a state-owned enterprise. They have to be efficient. They have to raise capital in the capital market. These are important issues.

With regard to Denel, I will come back to it in a moment. This is an important asset. It is not a choice that we can make lightly. If you were to just privatise it, it would break up, and we would lose that capacity. Keeping it, equally, is not easy, and that is why I am very pleased that members have been focusing on the turnaround strategy. This is something that will take us two or three years.

If we fail, we will not just keep Denel going forever, but we must have a turnaround attempt. I believe we will turn it around. I believe it will contribute massively to the South African manufacturing economy, because this is highly advanced manufacturing.

We must also remember that there are many hundreds of engineers and scientists involved in Denel; many, many hundreds of skilled workers - thousands of skilled workers - so it really is worth us doing everything we can to turn the enterprise around. I believe that we will.

I just want to correct you. In India’s case, it’s got nothing to do with the Minister. The Minister is not involved in this in any way whatsoever. This relates to a time before I was there, and it relates to allegations which have not yet been proven. So, I would not make rash comments about what is happening in this case.

With regard to the second defined pension fund, we inherited a very inadequate structure. I believe that it is difficult for the pensioners in that fund, but I also believe that correcting it cannot be done overnight. It is exceptionally expensive. We have to change it; and all I can say is that we are doing whatever we can to take ourselves from a very badly designed and constructed fund to a better situation. But it’s not going to be done overnight, and it can’t be done by making rash promises to people, I’m afraid. We will do the very best that we can.

Very briefly, to the hon Mchunu, I see you are very passionate about special products and soya, but I am sorry to tell you that Denel is selling that company. I believe that is a good move, because Denel is a defence company. It is building rockets and aeroplanes; it’s not so good at soya. [Laughter.] In fact, the product that was developed is good, and we believe – this is a good example of our pragmatism – that it would be far better managed in the private sector, and that’s why we are selling it.

So, where it makes sense to put things in the private sector, we do so. We have got no dogmatic position that we are opposed to or we are not opposed to privatisation. We do things for the right reasons. Very briefly, here’s some information on some of the points that were raised with regard, for example, to the V&A Waterfront. This is an important sale. Because it relates to pension funds, I must indicate very clearly that the top priority for the V&A sale is realising maximum value. This is pension fund money; we cannot jeopardise the interests of pensioners. We will introduce BEE criteria into it, but definitely, our priority in that is value for money. In other property, our priority is BBE, so we are mixing and matching these issues, depending on the asset.

I am pleased to say that the progress with dividing SA Airways and Transnet is excellent. We have just gone through a very important stage. We are now entering more detailed discussions with various parties, including the unions, and we hope to complete - finally - the absolute separation within a period of six months, maybe even in a shorter space of time. We are making excellent progress.

Let me make some brief comments, because they were raised, on the question of the second national operator. As you know, Transnet and Eskom do have a 30% holding in the second national operator, which we have agreed to continue holding and, of course, the important broadband infrastructure that will underpin the second national operator is the asset supply with Transnet and Eskom.

I am pleased to say we have made excellent progress in this regard. We are confident the SNO will be up and running before the end of this year, and we are also confident that some of the programmes we have between us and the Department of Communications will make a very, very significant impact on the availability and affordability of broadband in South Africa.

Let me deal with the hon Van Heerden’s comments about Koeberg, and some really misleading comments he made, which were quite disappointing, about Eskom’s conduct. Anyone who reads documents, and I am not going to go back to this, will see how we have explained the incident at Koeberg. I will make a statement to Parliament when the investigation is finished. That is what I will do. I am hoping that we will do that early during the course of next week or the week thereafter. It has to be next week, I think. No, I think we can do it the week after. We will make a statement on this matter, and deal with it fully.

I believe that the issue has been handled by everyone concerned, particularly the people at Koeberg, really very, very well. As I have said publicly before, we thank the staff at Koeberg very much for dealing with an exceptionally difficult position. The notion that there is a shortage of skills and loss of skills is not correct. It is just not correct. We have answered this time and time again.

The nuclear industry around the world – and this is something we have got to start realising – is an industry that is growing. There is a tremendous demand for anybody with nuclear skills. So, everywhere in the world, people are getting high turnover of their engineers, because of this. It has nothing to do with us in particular. We are training. Our people there are well-trained, and we are confident that this is something that we can manage.

I want to state very categorically, Chair, if you will give me a moment or two, that we must stop this absolutely wrong statement, which I believe is irresponsible in the extreme, that is made now by the FF, and it has been made by DA spokespersons, that Eskom discriminated against coloured persons. Please go and read the arbitration award. It has nothing whatsoever to do with that.

The facts of the matter are that the person concerned, having been one of those interviewed, subsequently alleged that he had been promised the job. That was his case: I am applying to get that job, because I was promised the job. He was unable to prove that he had been promised the job. There was no evidence. The arbitrator ruled against him, and said that he had not been promised the job. The person who got the job had qualifications far in excess of the person who did not get the job. So, please go and look at the facts. It has nothing to do with discrimination.

What you are conflating – and this is irresponsible – is an opinion the arbitrator provided, a correct opinion, which said that in any event, in terms of the Employment Equity Act, an employer can look at the balance of employment between African persons, coloured persons and Indian persons. So, we have to look at the facts. If you keep pumping this line that there was discrimination, it is irresponsible. You must not do that. You are accusing Eskom of being racially biased, and you are fuelling misinformation in the public domain, and that will create racial tensions. You must stop doing it. It is wrong. What you are saying is inaccurate.

On the salary benefits, you are also inaccurate. If you look at the details, you will see precisely what that package was about, and you will see that the salary packages of the Eskom management, of the Transnet management and the SAA management are well-aligned and not exorbitant, if you consider that these are some of the biggest companies in South Africa. They do not stand at the top of the remuneration package, compared to the private sector. I believe the packages are reasonable and fair.

Very briefly, on some last quick points, the hon Hendrickse made some comments about the Pebble bed modular reactor and Denel, and I support that. I think the PBMR is an exceptionally important project for South Africa. It is very interesting that South Africa plays such an important role in an industry that is going to be one of the key providers of energy in the future. It is a big project. It is. It is expensive, but if we succeed in this project, the future benefits to the South African energy sector and economy are very large indeed. There is no question about that. Finally, a few quick points about what the hon Sibiya raised. Let me just say that it is correct in terms of Arivia.com that the bulk of it will be reversed into a subsidiary of Eskom, because of the very close links between the mainframe systems that Eskom and Arivia.com use. If there are parts of Arivia.com that we feel could be hived off, ring-fenced and sold, we are looking at that at the present. We are in the process of changing the shareholding structure of Arrivia.com. It plays an important role in many countries in Africa. You are quite correct.

You mentioned the SA Rail Commuter Corporation Limited. It was actually Metrorail that we moved across into the SARCC. I am pleased that that process has been completed. We’ve now got Metrorail under the Department of Transport, and they face the important and interesting challenge of improving commuter rail services. There is no question about that.

I would also agree with you on reaching a settlement with the community of Alexkor and I am really hopeful. It has been one of the great legal battles that any community has fought in this country, and I am quite confident, in my mind, that the settlement that we are proposing is very beneficial to that community.

You are correct. It could lead to improved agricultural production. I am pleased to say that already we have started a project with the community to train young people from the Richtersveld in agricultural practices and management. We owe it to that community. I believe we will make a difference once we get through the very difficult legal implications of what we are trying to settle.

Chairperson, thanks go to the House for listening to me. Thanks for the little bit of extra time. I bought it from saving time when I opened my introductory speech. Thank you very much, and thank you for the support for the department.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Thank you, hon Minister. Maybe I should take this opportunity, hon members, to acknowledge, on the occasion of this debate, which is taking place three days before the 30th anniversary of our Youth Day, the presence of the scholars from the Summer Primary School. Our scholars up there, you are more than welcome. [Applause.] Thanks for being part of this important debate today.

Debate concluded.

Business suspended at 11:34 and resumed at 14:05.

      Age of Hope: Deepening youth participation in development

                      (Subject for Discussion)

Mr D D GAMEDE: Chairperson, this is the Age of Hope and we are talking about the deepening of youth participation in development. Today we meet 94 years after the ANC was formed. We also meet today 50 years after the women’s march to the Union Buildings. Today we meet 30 years after the Soweto uprisings known as June 16. Today we meet 12 years after obtaining our freedom. We meet in a free, democratic, nonsexist and nonracial country, under the leadership of the ANC. Today we live in the age of hope and we hope that the lives of all citizens, especially of the youth, will be better. We hope that the youth will participate fully in the development of our economy.

The incidents of 16 June 1976 were not an isolated confrontation. To put the incidents into context, it is correct to say the uprisings of June 16 were the culmination of all the wars that were taking place. What happened on June 16 was part of the programme of action of the ANC. One of the greatest leaders that Africa ever produced, the late Oliver Tambo, in the book Beyond the Engeli Mountains, says: “A new generation of young revolutionaries, embracing all races, is beginning to take to the political battlefield. Those were the words of the late Comrade O R Tambo in 1975.

One of the greatest leaders, a son of the soil, former President Mandela, said in 1961:

If the government reaction is to crush by naked force our nonviolent struggle, we will have to reconsider our tactics. In my mind we are closing a chapter on this question of a nonviolent policy.

This then proves that the uprisings of June 16 were long foreseen by the leaders of this country and by the leaders of the ANC. It is important to note that in 1975 the state was spending R42 per year on a black child at school, and at the same time the state was spending R591 per year on a white learner. These were the imbalances that actually moved young people to take the actions that they took.

A leader who served in this Parliament and in other legislatures, Comrade Ngoako Ramathlodi, was a student in 1976. When he was interviewed he said:

We are talking of the mid-70s, a period of very high repression: the regime was in total control, organisations were banned, but what had become the most popular form of political expression in townships was drama and poetry, just before 1976.

Now, this tells us why people like the late Gibson Kente wrote drama and plays such as How Long, because these were the modes and expressions people used to show that they did not accept what was happening.

For many years the youth in South Africa experienced very challenging conditions, such as a lack of opportunities and they had Afrikaans as the medium of instruction. You will remember, hon Chairperson, that we had a type of inferior education that was endorsed by the then leader of government, Verwoerd, who said, let us create a system of government of education that would make a black person more inferior than he is.

So, through the forceful use of Afrikaans as the medium of instruction, the youth of 1976 said: “Enough is enough.” So, prior to 1976, quite a number of actions were taken and a number of meetings were held. Actually it was said this morning that if you read a book written on the life of Winnie Mandela, by Annemarie du Preez, it reads thus:

The spark that lit the 1976 uprising was an incident at Naledi High School, during school hours. Two security policemen arrived to arrest one of the student leaders, Enos Ngutshana. The principal asked the police to leave the premises and wait until the end of the school day to detain him, but they refused. When they tried to carry out the arrest, enraged pupils set the police car alight and beat up the two officers. Soon afterwards, under the banner of the Soweto Students Representative Council, SSRC, the students organised a mass demonstration against the use of Afrikaans in the classrooms. On the morning of June 16, thousands of children took to the streets of Soweto carrying banners, singing freedom songs and clenching their fists in the familiar black power salute.

This then shows that when students said, “Enough is enough” they took to the streets and sang songs, such as Siyaya ePitoli, songs like Senzeni na? Senzeni na e-Afrika? Now, among those leaders were some of our leaders like Comrades Murphy Morobe and Popo Molefe who were student leaders then.

What actually happened in those days was that when the young people took to the streets they even destroyed structures that they felt were not contributing to the struggle. Such structures were beer halls. Comrade Faith would call them emabhara [beer halls]. Those were symptoms of what was happening.

Each time the white regime built townships they built bottle stores or these beer halls, but before June 16 all those structures were destroyed because young people were sending a message that our elderly parents were busy sitting there while the struggle was going on.

Of note is that when young people took to the streets and stopped trucks from making deliveries and so on, they did not eat that food, whether it was yoghurt from Clover or bread, they simply destroyed it as a sign of anger that they did not want what was coming from the regime. So, the period of June 16 needs to be recognised in a manner befitting June 16 and the young people.

You will remember, Chairperson, that every subject that students learnt was either informal or upgraded. It was informal English, upgraded English, informal Afrikaans, upgraded arithmetic, and so on. All that students wanted was an education system that would make them the true leaders of tomorrow.

May I also pay homage to all the young people who contributed to the struggle, and some of them are in this Parliament while others are in other structures. I also pay homage to all those young people that even left the country to wage the armed struggle. Of note is that we also have Comrades Sibiya and Tolo sitting in this House. They are some of the people who were in exile.

Today we sit together in one House where one is never asked whether one is white, black, green or yellow; whether one is ANC, IFP or DA. We all sit in one House, under the leadership of the ANC, and it’s because of the struggle that young people waged.

In closing, some of my colleagues and comrades will cover some of the aspects in commemoration of June 16. Let me close this discussion with a quotation from Comrade Ahmed Kathrada who was at that time on Robben Island. He said:

Of course we were shocked at the brutality unleashed against the children by the security forces, but strangely heartened too by their courage in the face of bullets and batons. We realised almost at once that a new chapter in the struggle had been opened.

That then concludes the discussion in that the uprisings of June 16 are only one other chapter in the struggles that were waged by the people of this country for a free, democratic, nonsexist and nonracial South Africa. I thank you. [Applause.]

Ms D ROBINSON: Hon Chairperson, hon members, two weeks ago I addressed this House on Children’s Day and mentioned that we, as legislators, need to focus on creating a better and safer world for the future of our children.

Today the focus is on our youth, the leaders of tomorrow, and we once again remember the tragic events of June 16, 1976. We remind ourselves that man’s inhumanity to man, and especially to our youth, must never again be repeated.

We remember the frustration, sacrifice and pain suffered by many in the struggle to liberate society from discrimination, and it is up to us to make sure that discrimination of any kind is removed from our society so that, in the words of the American Declaration of Independence, the forerunner of many other such declarations:

we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men and women are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, that to secure these rights, governments are instituted amongst men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

As we look at our South African society and compare it with that of 1976, we can indeed say that there has been progress; that our youth are in a far better position today to pursue happiness; that they have many more opportunities, much more freedom, political and economic, than they had then; that they are living in an age in which there is hope and that there has been development and progress in many spheres.

However, I want to focus on inalienable rights, the words “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” and examine what they mean in our South African context. What is a better life? A life of political freedom? Yes. A life of good opportunities to improve one’s status, financial, educational and social? Yes, but a life in which rights go hand in hand with responsibility to one’s fellow citizens and to the state. However, today a new oppression, the oppression of drugs, the slavery of addiction and the scourge of HIV/Aids beset us.

As legislators we need to focus on providing a framework of legislation and infrastructure that will assist in providing quality of life. Rape, gangsterism and violence are rife. Innocent men, women and children are traumatised and killed daily. Druglords and criminals prey on the innocent.

Recently, 66 child protection units were closed down. The criminal justice system seems to be paralysed. Our Ministers need to take strong action and root out the corruption and inefficiency that prevent proper service delivery.

Perpetrators of crime must not be given more rights than the victims. Murderers, who have served time and then been pardoned, should not be treated like heroes and be fêted and applauded in Parliament. Yes, they may have paid their debts to society, but it sends out the wrong signals to bring them to this House and treat them like celebrities.

The rights of the perpetrators should never be greater than those of the victims, those who have lost their loved ones, those who will never have the opportunity to be reunited with their families again.

As a victim remarked to me about her children: “My kinders sal nooit weer hul “deddie” sien nie.” [My children will never see their daddy again.]

As responsible politicians we should be uniting civil society against crime, encouraging all citizens, especially the youth, to become involved in community police forums, to volunteer as reservists and to help the police apprehend the criminals.

If people cry out in horror against the unacceptable levels of crime, they should not be labelled as whingers and told to leave the country. Why should they suffer discrimination? South Africa is a democratic state with freedom of speech and all deserve the protection of the state, the first duty of government.

South Africa is the home of all its sons and daughters, without prejudice to any group, and we should all have the right to remain, to point out the problems but also to be part of the solution. Let us encourage the youth to be instruments of change and participate in enforcing law and order.

The right to education in an acceptable learning environment, in which learners feels safe and secure, is vital for progress and development; and yet in recent years there have been many reports of murders, rapes, thefts and other crimes on school property.

Human Rights Watch has noted that South African female learners are particularly vulnerable to sexual attacks. One hundred and fifty-one rapes are reported daily, but we know that many more are not reported. We need to ask ourselves whether the Education department is doing enough to educate learners about HIV/Aids and how to manage the impact of the pandemic on learners’ lives and on schooling generally. Many of our youth are grappling with challenges and temptations.

Are we as politicians serving as good role models, promoting wholesome, responsible lifestyles? What messages are being sent out by our leaders? Just consider the ABC of Aids prevention: abstain, be faithful and condomise. I leave you to make up your own minds about that one.

A thousand people a day are dying of Aids. One third of pregnant women in this country are HIV-positive, but only 15% of them receive antiretrovirals which can prevent their children from being infected. HIV/Aids should be a national emergency. The flower of our youth is being decimated, not by an unjust political system as in 1976, but by a predator that can be subdued by ARVs, abstinence and information.

We are losing too many people who could make a positive contribution to development. We cannot allow this to continue. We cannot bury our heads in the sand like ostriches. As politicians we need to unite, in the interests of our youth, and resolve to make the fight against Aids and drug abuse the number one priority. This is when we will truly be in an age of hope. May the youth of today have the courage to take a stand, not through violence, but through democratic processes, against the discriminatory way in which ARVs are distributed, so that they are not denied the opportunity of a longer life, with hope beckoning to a brighter future. Thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, just before the hon Faith Mazibuko speaks and whilst she is taking the podium, I just want to notify you that I have been informed that the Chief Whip of the Council was involved in an accident on Saturday and that he is in hospital. On behalf of the Council, I wish him a speedy recovery. We have had too many people sick this term. I see Mr Watson is back. Welcome back to the House, those who were also sick. Welcome in the House. Who was sick again? I am not too sure as to who was sick again. I can’t recall the count or the list, but I am happy to see a lot of you are back at work again. Thank you very much.

Ms N F MAZIBUKO: Thank you, Chairperson. Ngibingelela amalungu. [I greet you, hon members.]

Thank you for this opportunity to participate in this debate today, as we mark the 30th anniversary of the Soweto student uprising in which the youth said that enough was enough. Although a lot of young people lost their lives due to apartheid and its oppression, this year we are celebrating with the theme: Age of Hope: Deepening Youth Participation in Development. As we celebrate, we need also to reflect on what brought us all here today as public representatives and what brought about this democracy that all of us seem to be enjoying. We need also to reflect on what brought about this democratic dispensation.

The young people of 1976 showed courage and treaded where no one had ever treaded before. Even our parents were afraid of the wrath of apartheid. It was the day the youth rose up. The events of the day of 16 June 1976 took a lot of planning, which is why it was a success. I was only 11 years old at that time and a learner at St Matthews Catholic School in Rockville. I did not even know what was happening when the helicopters were busy making a noise over our heads as we were coming out of school. But from what we hear – and I hope this will be documented for future generations and I’m quoting leaders like …

… uqabane u-Dan Montsisi, uqabane u-Matthew Morobe, uqabane u-David Kutumela, u-Zwelinzima Sizani, u-Seth Mazibuko owayenguthisha kanye noFanyana Mazibuko kodwa asihlobene njalo – ningathi ngithenga isikelemu … (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[… Comrade Dan Motsitsi, Comrade Matthew Morobe, Comrades David Kutumela,Zwelinzima Sizani and Seth Mazibuko, who was a teacher together with Fanyana Mazibuko but we are not related as such – not buying into something …]

… who were also teachers at Morris Isaacson. They said it all began when the students refused to be taught in Afrikaans. Imagine studying all your subjects in Afrikaans. Even though it is difficult to study maths in English, and that is why …

… thina siwuhulumeni we-ANC … [… we are the government of the ANC …]

… we are making, actually making, policies for learners to learn in their mother tongue. A meeting of the SA Students Movement executive was held at which plans were made on how to make the country ungovernable and for students to boycott writing their exams. As usual, there would be those that would defy. The boycott was successful at the Morris Isaacson High School and the Naledi High School. A solidarity demonstration, which initially had been proposed by the late Comrade Tsietsi Mashinini for those schools who were being taught in Afrikaans, was implemented at which all the junior and high schools would participate in a peaceful demonstration.

Of course, on 16 June many young people lost their lives. As they were marching, they were also carrying placards that said:

… uzongixolela ngeminye imibhalo, Sihlalo, izwakala sengathi iyinhlamba … babethi, “Voster, jou gat”, “Release Mandela”. Eminye imibhalo yayithi, “Black power”. Eminye yayithi, “No SBs”. Eminye yayithi, “Away with Afrikaans”. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[… you will forgive me the other quote, Chairperson, it sounds like an insult, but … they went:Vorster, jou gat and “Release Mandela.” Some quotes went:Black Power!” Some went: No SBs!” andAway with Afrikaans!”]

They gathered and marched towards Orlando where they were going to host a rally and where a memorandum would be drawn up, but things turned ugly as they were provoked. Bashaya ngamatshe. [Stone them.]

The first victim of that day was the late Hastings Ndlovu, later followed by Hector Petersen, who at that time was only 13 years old. Many other young people also lost their lives. We salute the many unsung heroes and heroines and we want to pay tribute to them for losing their lives in order to make this democracy actually work. Years thereafter the commemorations of the day were also marred by violence.

Thina ebesihlala eduze kwase-Regina Mundi Church … [Those of us who stayed close to the Regina Mundi Church …]

… we knew that …

… uma kushaya isisi esikhalisa izinyembezi, sasiqala lapha ezindlini. [… when they threw the teargas, it had already started in the houses.]

The police would gather at the gate and give the mourners only five minutes to disperse. If they did not disperse after five minutes, they would walk in and throw the teargas canisters into the church. There would be pandemonium …

… inkukhu nenkukhu ibalekela ehokweni layo. [… everyone would run to his or her house.]

The struggle also intensified in the 80s as many comrades were killed. Some were detained, while others left the country to go into exile. Those in detention would go on hunger strikes demanding their release.

Njalo ebusuku sasivulela umsakazo, i-Radio Freedom. Kulapho esasithola khona umlayezo ovela kubaholi bethu zisitshela ukuthi asiketule lombuso wamaBhunu. [Every evening we listened to the radio, Radio Freedom. That is where we got our message from our leaders telling us to overthrow this Afrikaner government.]

There were stayaways, consumer boycotts and black Christmases. The apartheid government declared states of emergency in which people would be detained without trial … [Inaudible.] You were not able to walk around at night without having special permission.

Wawuchaza ukuthi uvelaphi nanokuthi uyaphi. Ebusuku wawuzwa ngama-hippo namakhwela khwela enyonyoba kanye nama-“yellow mellow.” [You explained your comings and goings. At night you would hear the hippos and the army vehicles moving stealthily, as well as the police vans.]

Houses were raided …

… ngamaphoyisa. Kwakukubi ngempela. Ngaleyo minyaka ayebhokile amaBhunu e- Civic Co-operation Bureau, CCB, i-South African Defence Force, SADF, kanye noklova bebulala futhi bebopha wonke umuntu. [… by the police. It was really terrible. During those years the Afrikaners were unstoppable in the Civil Co-operation Bureau, the CCB, the South African Defence Force, the SADF, as well as the warlords; they were killing and arresting everybody.]

Many comrades were tortured. Those who were lucky survived, while others died in detention.

Umhlaba wonke jikelele wase wazi ukuthi kwenzakalani eNingizimu Afrika. Abantu babebulawa. [The whole world knew what was happening in South Africa. People were being killed.]

The 80s saw the formation of the Congress of SA Students in which the struggle continued for equal education for the people. It was during this era when leaders such as Sicelo Dlomo and others were actually killed.

EDuduza amaqabane acushwa ngeziqhumane, abanye abathathu ababedume ngegama elalithi Pepco Three nabo babulawa ngamaBhunu, abanye babebulawa ngokugaxwa amathaya kuthiwa yizimpimpi, njalo njalo. [In Duduza comrades were trapped carrying explosives; three members of the famous group called the Pepco Three were also killed by the Afrikaners, while others were killed by being choked with burning tyres because it was rumoured they were spies, and so on and so forth.]

The formation of the SA Youth Congress also mobilised a lot of young people. The “Release Mandela” campaign also intensified. Structures like the United Democratic Front were formed, and the civic movement was actually strengthened.

O-Robert McBride babeshaya bengadlali kanye nabanye-ke siyabazi. [Robert McBride and others never missed their targets, or the others we know of.]

Owing to the pressure, the boers agreed to the talks that saw the release of many of our leaders from detention, such as Comrade Mandela, the late Comrade Walter Sisulu, Govan Mbeki, Raymond Mhlaba and others. Negotiations in terms of the Convention for a Democratic South Africa were started and resulted in the signing of the declaration of intent, which saw the first democratic elections taking place on 27 April 1994, marking the beginning of a new era.

In conclusion, let us not forget, all of us, that on 16 June we will be at the FNB stadium where the President of the country, Mr Thabo Mbeki, will be delivering the keynote address. You are all invited, even if you are a member of the DA. It is not an ANC event but a government event.

Ngethemba ukuthi nonke nizoya. Siyabonga. [Ihlombe.] [I hope that all of you will go. We thank you. [Applause.]]

Dr F J VAN HEERDEN: Chairperson, youth unemployment is a worldwide crisis. About 76% of jobless people in South Africa are youths. The large-scale exodus of highly skilled South Africans to other parts of the globe should be discounted in terms of the South African unemployment problem.

There is currently an increase of 100% in the number of black students who entered tertiary institutions and a decrease of 20% in white students. This decrease could be attributed to large-scale emigration, alternatively changing demographics; and, furthermore, quota systems in respect of admission to specialised courses.

White youths are being subjected to affirmative action at a tertiary level when they apply for admission to universities for particular courses, and again when they enter the job market. This means the deprivation of equal opportunities twice over.

The youth under 18 know no other government than the present one. The President has repeatedly said that South Africa belongs to all who live in it. A recent survey regarding affirmative action found that 50% of blacks and 75% of whites, coloureds and Indians agree that the youth should be exempted from affirmative action.

Expenditure on education is a capital investment by the state that, after a number of years, should start paying dividends by way of added value to the economy. It is estimated that over a 10-year period R113 billion would be invested in white students. If the aims of affirmative action are reached in terms of the percentages, 76% of whites – a waste of R85,3 billion - will be trained and then, de facto, sent into exile in different parts of the world.

The FF Plus has certain proposals. Affirmative action must not be applicable to those born after February 1990, or the definition of designated groups in the Employment Equity Act must be broadened to include all youths; and new business enterprises created by young people, irrespective of race, should be allowed to compete for government tenders. In such a way, all youths can participate in the development of South Africa and then at least, according to what my colleague the hon Mr Gamede said, we will reach a nonracial South Africa. I thank you.

Prof J MAPHALALA (KwaZulu-Natal): Ngiyabonga sihlalo, amalunga ahloniphekile. Inselelo esibhekene nayo njengoba sikhumbula iminyaka yokuphela kweminyaka engamashumi amathathu kwabheduka impi abafundi ababesekhaleni eliphambili kuyo, eyokuthi akukabibikho neyodwa incwadi ebhalwe ngabafundi ababelapho ngolimi lomdabu engaphakanyiswa, noma kwafa abantu abaningi njengoba amalunga ahloniphekile kade asho. Ingozi enkulu leyo, okuyinselelo okufanele siyimele ngezinyawo ukuthi emitatsheni yezincwadi ekhona kube khona incwadi engafundwa, hhayi ngabazi isingisi kuphela kodwa nabanye abazi izilimi zethu.

Kudingeka futhi okwesibili sibheke inselelo yokuthi silungise iphutha ukuthi intsha iyodwa ingaletha izinguquko ezinhlakeni zentuthuko. Intsha iyozimbandakanya entuthukweni kuphela ibambisene nawo wonke umphakathi hhayi izimele yodwa. Isizathu salokhu ukuthi into enjalo ayikaze yenzeke emlandweni wase Africa. Ingqondo iye ibuze ukuthi lokhu engikwenzayo kusukela kuphi. Akukaze kwenzeke ukuthi ihambe yodwa bese yenza izimangaliso. IsiZulu sithi indlela ibuzwa kwabaphambili okuchaza ukuthi ulwazi lutholakala kwabadala bese beludlulisela kubaholi bakusasa. Yingakho sithi inkunzi isematholeni, sisho ukuthi entsheni kuvela abaholi bakusasa.

Inkinga edalekile ngenkoleloze, ukuthi intsha iyodwa zwi ingenza izimanga. Lokhu kuyiphutha, kwavela nangawo unyaka wenkulungwane namakhulu ayisishiyagalolunye namashumi aysiskhombisa nesithupha. Mina ngabe sengifundisa eNyuvesi yakwaZulu ukubheduka kwalento. Yasha iNyuvesi yaphela ngenyanga ka Agasti 1976. O Pennuel Maduna babehamba phambili nabanye besanda kufika eNyuvesi, babekhona kunye nabanye abaningi kakhulu kabi ababeseNyuvesi yaso Ngoye. Umphumela onamagalelo angujuqu wawuyokwenzeka kuphela ukuba intsha ngo 1976 yayingagxilile emaNyuvesi kuphela. Kwacutshungulwa ukuthi iphutha ngabe likuphi. Bathi sisemaNyuvesi noma ema High School sizolwa kanjani ngoba abantu lapha phansi bathi izingane zilwa kangaka ngabe kwenzenjani. Kwaqala lapho ukuphuma kuyokwenziwa izinhlangano ngaphandle, ukuthi abantu bakwazi ukubamba iqhaza kubonakale ukuthi hhayi zizodwa izitshudeni. Kulapho ke kwavela khona O BPC kanye nezinye izinhlangano. Kwalungiswa ngaso sona leso sikhathi. Inselelo le okufanele siyiqhube siyibonise njengoba sibonile naku Youth Commission nayo ithi iyazama yahluleka iyodwa ngoba abantu abadala bathi intsha njengoba nakhu siyazama ngapha pho yona iqhuba luphi uhlelo. Kuhanjwa ndawonye, ngaphandle kophiko lwabesifazane nalolu ngoba vele kwakukhona lokho. U Cheikh Anta Diop ukubiza ngokuthi I “African Bicameralism”, lowomqondo onjalo. Lokhu kusho phecelezi ukuthi complementary roles kodwa lapho kushiwo kuphela kwabesifazane nalaba abanye abantu abawuquqaba hhayi entsheni ngoba kufanele yona ihambe ibanjwe ngesandla abadala futhi ikujwayele lokho.

Unyaka wethemba ekuzimbandakanyeni kwentsha entuthukweni uzokwenzeka uma imfundo ezikoleni inikezwa ngazozonke izilimi eziyishumi nanye ezikumthethosikelo wezwe. Lelizwe lifake imali edlula wonke amazwe ase Africa kodwa umphumela awubonakali ukuthi uphi ngoba awukwazi ukulolozela ngengqondo ingunaphakade. Ingane zithi “good morning teacher, how are you. I am alright”. Leyonto izosibeka kuphi? I Tanzania kuphela izwe lapho abantu bakhona befunde bagogoda, kufundwa ngesiSwahili kulandele I Cameroon. Kuzofika ke nalapha futhi ngijabula kabi ukuthi uNgqongqoshe u Pandor useke wakusho wathi kodwa inkinga enkulu ukuthi ukwenza lokho kungabiza izigidigidi, wathi kuzokwenziwa ukuhlolwa kwaloluhlelo kwaZulu Natal nase Eastern Cape. Indlela eya phambili ekhanyisayo leyo kodwa abaphambukile balahleka yilaba abathi, kungasa abantu bengamangisi noma akusetshenzelwe ukuthi sonke siphenduke amangisi. Nabo abantu abafanele ukulungiswa nje, bacangcathwe ngempela labobantu labo njengoba kucangcathwa izimoto ezilimele. [Kwaphela isikhathi.] [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu speech follows.)

[Prof J MAPHALALA (KwaZulu Natal): Thank you, Chairperson and hon members. The challenge we are facing as we celebrate the 30th anniversary of the students’ uprising is that there is not even a single book that was written in an indigenous language about the students who took part in that uprising. This is the case despite the many people who died there, as hon members have said. This poses a big danger. The challenge that we have to overcome is that in our libraries there must at least be a book that can be read, not only by those who understand English, but also by those who are only familiar with our indigenous languages.

We also need to rectify the mistake of thinking that the youth can bring about changes in development programmes. The youth can only take part in the development programmes if they are working hand in hand with the public, not alone. The reason is that such things have never happened yet in our African history. I am sure some of you might be asking yourselves where all this comes from. It has never yet happened in history that the youth worked on their own and succeeded. There is an isiZulu saying which literally means “in order to know the route to a certain place, you ask the people who come from there”. This means the knowledge comes from the elders and goes to the future generation. That is why we say the leadership is amongst the youth.

The problem caused by the propaganda is the message that the youth on their own can do wonders. That is not true; it was even shown in 1976. At the time of this incident, I was already teaching at the University of Zululand. In August 1976 the University was burnt down. Penuel Maduna and the others were at the forefront and they were newcomers at the University of Ngoye.

The solution would have been found if the youth of 1976 had not focused on the universities only. They sat down and planned yet another strategy. People were not too sure what exactly was happening at the universities or in the high schools. That is when they started organisations outside, so that people would be able to take part and show that students were not alone. That is the challenge we have to carry forward as we have seen the National Youth Commission try to do but fail in doing because they were alone and the elders asked what the programmes of the youth were. We did things together, except the women’s organisation and this one, because it was like that. Sheikh Anta Diop calls this kind of idea “African bicameralism”. This means complementary roles when it is imparted to women and other ordinary people, but not the youth, because they still need to be led by the elders and they have to get used to that.

The age of hope, with the youth taking part in developmental programmes, will only succeed if education takes place in all eleven official languages, as stated in the country’s Constitution. This country has generated more money than any other African country, but we cannot see the result because we cannot memorise forever. Children at school still say, “Good morning, teacher. How are you? I am all right”. Where is all this going to lead us? It’s only Tanzania where people are mostly educated to higher levels of education through their mother tongue, Swahili, and Cameroon is number two. I am also happy that Minister Pandor has said that it will happen here, but the problem with doing all this is that it will cost us millions and millions of rands; she said the testing of these programmes will be done in KwaZulu-Natal and the Eastern Cape. That is the way forward but those who are mistaken are the ones who say people should be English or that we should strive to be purely English. Those are the people who need to be corrected, panel beaten as thoroughly as we panel beat the broken cars. [Time expired.] [Applause.]]

Mr N D HENDRICKSE: Hon Chair, hon members, we salute the youth who sacrificed their lives so that we can enjoy democracy today, democracy that was bought with blood and tears. This is not an easy thing for us just to accept. We need to reflect very seriously on how we got here - where we are today.

I want to salute those who went out of the country and fought. I want to salute those students and I was fortunate, with hindsight now, to know those involved on a daily basis - being a chairperson of a progressive high school – and to have seen how resolute the students were in ’76, ’80 and ’85.

This whole thing came about because of the hopelessness of the situation with the Vorsters of the day. People felt hopeless; their leaders were jailed; others were put under house arrest. We saw this from the early ’40s, and the ’50s – we have named it all here – and from the ’60s with the pass laws, and then came 1976. After 1976 let’s not forget 1985 when right here in Cape Town young people like Kriel and the other young man Frans were shot in cold blood by the security forces at close range. So, those are the memories that we need to keep at the forefront. Those are the memories that the people who repressed us and suppressed us need to value at this time - that leaders like Madiba and others stretched out their hands and said, “Let’s build this country together.” I and others might have said, “No, let’s jail them for life.”

So, today, this is a very important day for us as we look back. It is a day with emotion. That is the way I see it, and I would like us to see it like that in that these young people made sacrifices. Some sacrificed their education. They had to leave the universities. They had to leave the high schools; they couldn’t ever get back in because the government decree had their names and would not allow them back into these institutions. So today we pay them homage and we salute them. Thank you, Sir. [Applause.]

Ms B L MATLHOAHELA: Hon Chair, hon members, I listened to hon members of the House and would like to say that we have forgiven. But when you go back to this time, you relive what happened and it touches the heart, especially when you look at the photo of Hector Petersen being carried limply and you look at the expression on the face of the boy carrying him. It is like a needle going through the heart. So, we have to commemorate such children and people.

I have to refer to the remark by the DA in the National Assembly in that there can be no difference in the new age between the white youth and the nonwhite youth relating to being advantaged and disadvantaged. Certainly, there is a difference.

The white youth still enjoy the benefits from the investments of the previous regime of inequality, invested by their parents, whereas the nonwhite youth only started to invest a few years ago with the end of apartheid. I, however, would encourage the black youth to continue the current financial struggle with the same courage that was shown in the struggle against apartheid. Today some youth still lose their lives by using drugs because of disillusionment. Also, there are still too many youths in prison. This needs attention, despite the progress reports by the Judicial Inspectorate of Prisons. But I believe that the youth will overcome. I salute the youth with respect. I thank you, hon Chair. [Applause.]

Mr S W MCOYI (KwaZulu-Natal): Mr Chairperson, I am pleased to be in this House. I think there has been quite a lot of input. When I listened especially to the hon Hendrickse, when he was trying to explain how painful it was - what happened during the early years - I think that this would be the best time for him to say: “I did stand in the line of fire to stop the fire from hitting people like Petersen”.

All the same, I usually watch TV sorrowfully and helplessly when I see fellow Africans running and queuing for cereal that is brought in by trucks or dropped by planes mostly by the USA. They come running in their frail, half-clad bodies. They come without containers and some use their skirts and hands, trying to grab as much as they can.

At the end of that struggle a person finds that he or she has not been able to grab enough to even last a week. However, hope is written all over their faces. This brings me to this point: I wonder if our youth are well placed or well prepared for the various glamorous enterprises we hear of today. Are they skilled enough to meet the high-class demands? We need to ask ourselves if our youth are not going to be seen rushing forward with hope only to find that what they get will not even be enough to grant them decent lives in their world of hope.

Let us question ourselves as to who the people are that will be advantaged by these enterprises that we talk of today that are already financially well positioned and skilled. Those are the main questions we must ask ourselves. A person who is a Christian and a person who loves socialising with Christians are two different people, and I doubt if they will receive the same status in heaven.

Lastly, monopoly and suppression of the weak are both unacceptable, whether they are done by the people of the Dark Ages or by people of times of hope. This present time of hope is signified by various incidents, by contributions made by various people of the soil in various places. Today we have a government formed by various parties with the ANC in the majority.

We should guard against obliterating other leaders’ contributions because we will be defacing our own history. The forces of darkness did deface our history for reasons best known to them. If today we feel that we need to further deface our history, let us all be aware of the reasons.

I must say that the struggle is not yet over, but that it is still on. We need to get our youth to fight a different war, the war against laziness, the war against illiteracy, the war against careless living or behaviour, and the war against drug dependency. Those are the wars they must fight today to liberate themselves and to have more hope. The war against liquor abuse and many other wars they fight stand in the way of our uhuru [freedom] of the day.

I wish to remind the ANC that uneasy lies the head that wears the crown. There is no way to rest on your laurels. Bickering, posturing and many other things of that sort are not what this county needs today. The country is hungry for unity, solidarity, inclusivity, development, jobs for all, and freedom from crime. I thank you, Chairperson.

Mr C M GOEIEMAN: Modulasetulo, makhomreiti, le basebitsi mmoho. [Chairperson, comrades and colleagues …]

I would love to make reference to the role of the youth in the international context as well. The United Nations made an assessment of the situation of the world’s young people in 2005. Two resolutions of the United Nations General Assembly designated 1985 as International Youth Year, under the theme “Participation, Development, Peace”.

The resolutions motivated for this designation are based on the recognition of the need to

… harness the energies, enthusiasm, and creative abilities of youth to the task of nation-building, the struggle for self-determination and national independence …

Similarly, during the height of repression in the 1970s and 1980s in South Africa, the International Year of the Youth provided a legal platform for the youth and student movement to unite around their issues as a sector, when many other legal forms of expression were being closed down.

It provided an umbrella for co-ordinated efforts in the struggle to make apartheid unworkable and it helped to situate the youth struggles in South Africa in an international context. The 1985 International Youth Year activities, and the unity in action they inspired, provided cover and gave new impetus to the process of forming a national youth organisation, culminating in the launch of the SA Youth Congress in 1987.

Hence, one would want to quote Comrade Oliver Tambo, then president of the ANC, when he was addressing a conference:

Our glorious youth and students have continued to hold high the banner of struggle. Because they have dared to fight for and bring our emancipation so near, our youth have been eminent targets of the enemy forces of oppression.

The reason I quote this is because some people had the opportunity to come and stand here and mislead this august House; wanting to tell the ANC how it is supposed to address issues that affect young people, wanting to teach the ANC, which they could not do in the past. They had the opportunity to do that but they couldn’t.

You see this morning there was a debate at which even the Minister struggled to understand what it was the DA wanted to bring forward, to tell this august House. We could not make any sense of it because they do not understand that one should … lore lo kojwa lo sale metsi. [Strike while the iron is still hot.]

The person who was supposed to have debated now was the hon Terblanche, who is not even in this House because - I want to believe - she is very young. Instead what they did is they brought the hon Robinson to debate around youth issues. Now the ANC has youth structures. They have the Youth League in order to be able to be taught how you are supposed to raise issues at a youth level.

They don’t even have a programme about awareness of HIV/Aids awareness. But, always, when they come here, they come and cry about HIV/Aids awareness. The only thing that they can do is to move around hanging up panties. [Laughter.] Another thing is that I have never heard them talking about a youth structure within the DA. They don’t have it, because they don’t understand that young people are there in order to be developed so that tomorrow they are able to raise the issues correctly, and not to mislead the House like the hon Terblanche did this morning.

The DA had the opportunity to lead the Western Cape province. All provinces had youth commissions but they didn’t, because they don’t understand the issues of young people, and it is very important that there are youth structures. So how can they even have a youth structure within their own organisation? [Interjections.]

They are talking about education; they are now experts on education. That clearly tells you that they were part of government, and some of them were even flying around here killing our people. But they could not really raise the issue of the importance of education, now all of a sudden … [Interjections.]

Mr A WATSON: The member has just said that some of our members in the DA were flying around killing their people. Could he withdraw that or substantiate it please?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: He didn’t say some of the DA members. He said some of the people were flying around killing people, but he did not say the DA. That is not correct. [Interjections.] Continue, hon member. [Interjections.]

Mr C M GOEIEMAN: Chairperson, in Setswana there is a saying “Ga le nke le ingwaya le sa babe.” [Where there is smoke there is fire.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mr Goeieman, I have ruled. Continue with your speech.

Mr C M GOEIEMAN: Thank you, Chair. When young people are politically conscious about what is right for them in schools and universities, they always have a problem in that these young people are a lost generation. They are not, they are politically conscious because they know what is right for them and they know how to raise it at a very tender age.

That does not mean they are lost whatsoever. Just the other day a number of political parties were invited to a youth convention in Johannesburg. They could not attend because they don’t know the importance of young people coming together to discuss issues central to improving this government. They could not attend. They did not attend. They always come and use this platform to cry.

The other issue regarding the FF Plus’s hon Van Heerden is that he comes here and talks about affirmative action, about exclusion and whatever. But why don’t those young people go up and stand up and raise the issues of exclusion? We will only see Sasco standing up or Cosas standing up and raising issues that affect their lives.

I have never seen them. How will you know that they are affected and excluded? Because you only raise an issue when it affects you. This clearly tells me that they have not been affected by all these issues that the hon member is … [Time expired.] [Applause.] Debate concluded. OLDER PERSONS BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

Ms J M MASILO: Modulasetulo, maloko a Ntlo a a tlotlegang le Motlatsa- Modulasetulo, mme Hollander … [Chairperson, hon members and Deputy Chairperson, Ms Hollander …]

Deputy Chairperson, this House will remember that the Older Persons Bill was introduced in this House after its consideration by our committee, and this House resolved to pass it. Therefore the Bill was referred to the National Assembly. The National Assembly portfolio committee, having held public hearings on the Bill, agreed to pass it with amendments.

The amending Bill was referred back to the National Council of Provinces either to pass or reject it. In the process of considering the amending Bill from the National Assembly, it was found, however, that some of the important amendments proposed by the Portfolio Committee on Social Development in the National Assembly were not incorporated in version 68D of the Bill of 2003.

Our considered view, after consultation with the provinces, is that we cannot recommend the passing of this Bill to the House while the substantive issues identified are not part of the Bill. Therefore we as the committee recommend that this House reject the Bill before it, and that the Bill be referred to the mediation committee in accordance with section 76(2) and 76(2)(d) of our Constitution. I thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Thank you, hon Masilo. I shall now put the question. The question is that the Bill be rejected. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. Are all delegation heads present? [Interjections.] Yes.

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces an opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour of, against, or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Mr M O ROBERTSON: Eastern Cape rejects.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Free State?

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN: Rejects. The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Gauteng?

Mr E M SOGONI: Gauteng reserves its vote. [Interjections.] Oh, abstains, Deputy Chairperson.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI: KwaZulu-Natal is in favour of rejection.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Limpopo?

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Limpopo reluctantly supports. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Does Limpopo reject, sir?

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Supports. The official mandate from my province, Chairperson, is that we reluctantly support the Bill. Reluctantly.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Mpumalanga?

Ms F NYANDA: Mpumalanga rejects.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Northern Cape? Mr C M GOEIEMAN: Noord-Kaap staan teen. [Northern Cape opposes.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: North West e a e raga. [North West rejects.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Western Cape?

Mr N J MACK: Supports reluctantly.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): We have many rejections here. The number of provinces that rejects is six.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSN (Mr T S Setona): Chairperson, I am not sure but maybe it would be advisable, before we adopt the final motion on this matter, that we get procedural clarity on the Limpopo position because this is a record. I am raising this because of the recent spate of technicalities in which certain Bills and positions were adopted by the House, only to find out later that they were challenged on technical and administrative bases. I wouldn’t be comfortable with that reluctant support and if it could be clarified we would be more comfortable.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Hon Setona, I have a mandate, a conferral of voting mandate, on the Older Persons Bill from Limpopo. Please be informed that the Limpopo legislature, at its sitting on Tuesday, 6 June 2006, adopted the Report of the Portfolio Committee on Health and Social Development on the Older Persons Bill, Bill 68D of 2003, and conferred a mandate on the NCOP permanent delegates to support the amendments in full and to vote in favour of the Bill. Thank you, sir.

Mr T S SETONA: It does not appear on what …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Hon Setona, you are out of order. Thank you. Most provinces voted against, and I therefore declare the Bill rejected in terms of section 65 of the Constitution.

Bill accordingly rejected in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND RECREATION - UNITED NATIONS EDUCATION, SCIENTIFIC AND CULTURAL ORGANISATION (UNESCO) CONVENTION AGAINST DOPING IN SPORT

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Deputy Chair, this convention against doping in sport is quite an important convention that we have here before us today. Doping is not only a South African problem; it’s also an international problem. We see in the print and electronic media nowadays reports of athletes involved in substance abuse, abuse of certain medications, of drugs and so forth. It’s increasingly becoming a problem for all of us.

I just want to say that this particular convention is long overdue. I am also aware of the fact that we will soon have legislation dealing with doping in sport. Once this convention has been ratified, Sport and Recreation SA will liaise closely with the SA Institute for Drug-Free Sport to ensure that the objectives of the convention are achieved in South Africa and that all sport federations comply accordingly.

Furthermore, Sport and Recreation SA will sensitise other government departments on their responsibilities in so far as the convention impacts on their domain to ensure that the set objectives of the convention are met. State parties shall, where appropriate, adopt measures to restrict the availability of prohibited substances and methods in order to restrict their use in sport by athletes, unless the use is based upon a therapeutic use exemption. These include measures against trafficking to athletes and, to this end, measures to control production, movement, importation, distribution and sale.

The fight against doping in sport can only be effective when athletes can be tested with no advance notice and samples can be transported in a timely manner to laboratories for analysis.

State parties shall, where appropriate and in accordance with domestic law and procedures, firstly, facilitate the task of the world antidoping organisations operating in compliance with the code, subject to relevant host countries’ regulations, of conducting in- or out-of-competition doping controls on their athletes, whether on their territory or elsewhere; secondly, facilitate the timely movement of duly authorised doping control teams across borders when conducting doping control activities; and, thirdly, co-operate to expedite the timely shipping or carrying across borders by various antidoping organisations of samples, and co-operate to this end with the World Anti-Doping Agency.

It is also important to note that state parties must also implement education and training programmes on antidoping measures. Regarding the sporting community in general, these programmes should aim to provide updated and accurate information on the harm of doping to the ethical values of sport, the health consequences of doping, doping control procedures, and the list of prohibited substances and methods. These are just but a few.

It gives me great pleasure to present to this august House, in terms of section 231 of Act 108 of 1996, the request to ratify the said convention. I thank you very much. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): I shall now put the question. The question is that the report be adopted. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. Are all delegation heads present? [Interjections.] Yes.

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces an opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. We shall now proceed to voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour of, against, or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Mr O M ROBERTSON: Eastern Cape supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Free State?

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Gauteng?

Mr E M SOGONI: I Gauteng iyayixhasa. [Gauteng supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI: KwaZulu-Natal supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Limpopo?

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Limpopo ra e thekga. [Limpopo supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Mpumalanga?

Ms F NYANDA: Mpumalanga supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Northern Cape?

Mr C M GOEIEMAN: Noord-Kaap steun. [Northern Cape supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: North West ke a rona. [North West supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Western Cape?

Mr N J MACK: Wes-Kaap steun. [Western Cape supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Nine provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the report adopted in terms of section 65 of the Constitution.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF JOINT MONITORING COMMITTEE ON IMPROVEMENT OF QUALITY OF LIFE AND STATUS OF WOMEN – 2006 QUARTERLY REPORT

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): I now call upon the hon E S Mabe, co-chairperson of the Joint Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Women to continue the debate.

Mrs E S MABE: Deputy Chair, hon members, the Joint Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Women, having considered the Appropriation Bill and associated Budget Votes, reports that it has concluded its deliberations. Over the years the committee has consistently focused its attention on three issues, which are poverty, gender-based violence, and HIV and Aids.

In 2003 the Expanded Public Works Programme was introduced as an expansion of activities previously funded through poverty alleviation. The Expanded Public Works Programme is a flagship programme for South Africa in terms of directly addressing poverty. One of the changes announced in 2003 was that the scope of activities covered by Public Works would be expanded, in particular that it would include the social-sector activities of home-based and community-based care and early childhood development, alongside the physical infrastructure activities on which Public Works traditionally focuses.

The expansion of Public Works is an extremely innovative idea. It is an idea that is welcomed from a gender perspective. It is innovative because home- and community-based care and early childhood development are areas of work in which women traditionally predominate, unlike the building of physical infrastructure.

These are types of work that are often done for no pay, but their inclusion in the Public Works programme affords some recognition in that these activities constitute real productive work. Our concern is that even though this was introduced early in 2003, it is now three years later and the implementation of this social sector is a challenge as it is still in the planning stages as we speak.

Another poverty-related issue revolves around maintenance and divorce. The committee is pleased to see in the department’s annual report for 2004-05 that child maintenance is regarded as one of the department’s flagship projects. The committee is pleased to see in this year’s estimates on national expenditure in terms of the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development that the Legal Aid Board has named women involved in divorces, maintenance and domestic violence as a priority group.

The committee, however, is concerned that this year’s budget does not seem to say anything about investigators and prosecutors. Last year’s budget reported that the appointment of 82 investigators and 100 clerks for maintenance and domestic violence courts had helped to improve the system, though we are still aware that, despite these improvements, there are still women who face major obstacles when approaching some of the courts.

On violence against women, the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development has a major role to play in respect of gender-based violence. Unfortunately, Kgoshi, the departmental Vote in the Estimates of National Expenditure says almost nothing on this topic.

This year’s Estimates on National Expenditure states that 70 sexual offences courts had been established by August 2005, and that another 30 will have been established by May 2006. This is welcomed. However, we need more information, and hope that relevant select committees, such as the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, will look into this matter.

Last year’s budget book says that 52 sexual offences courts were established, and we also learnt that 52 of the total number of courts met minimum requirements. So, the question now becomes: What is the status of the first 70 we talked about which were established in August 2005? Did they meet the requirements? We hope the select committee will assist us on this matter.

On HIV and Aids, our third …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Thank you, hon member. I would like this communication to stop between you and the hon Kgoshi. Please speak through the Chair. Thank you.

Mrs E S MABE: Thank you, Chairperson. I was referring to the select committee. I’m sorry about maybe naming the hon Kgoshi.

Our third special area of interest is HIV and Aids. This issue is particularly burdensome for women for a number of reasons. Firstly, because of both biological and sociological reasons, women are more vulnerable than men to infection and are likely to be infected at a young age.

Secondly, women and girls tend to predominate among those who care for others in the households and community who are ill. Women are thus both more infected and more affected by HIV and Aids than men. In terms of HIV and Aids, the committee must, again, refer to the issue of home- and community-based care.

Until now there has been a national conditional grant that has provided money to provinces in respect of home and community-based care. That grant has now come to an end, and provinces are expected to provide for these services from their own budgets. The committee is not confident that this will happen across all provinces. We have had bad experiences twice in the past regarding conditional grants in respect of early childhood development, which, when they come to an end, were not adequately replaced by funding from the provinces.

The committee fears that this will happen again in respect of home and community-based care. The committee would therefore like information on what the national government is planning to do to ensure that the carers and those for whom they provide care will not suffer. Our concern is especially acute given the lack of progress in implementing the Expanded Public Works Programme in the social sectors mentioned above.

There are many other issues that the committee could raise in respect of the three issues, namely poverty, gender-based violence and HIV and Aids. The committee offers these examples in the hope that they will assist government departments in understanding what is required by Parliament. If these and similar improvements can be effected, they will also assist Parliament in better fulfilling its mandate of oversight. I thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): I shall now put the question. The question is that the report be adopted. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. Are all delegation heads present? Yes.

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces an opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour of, or against, or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Mr O M ROBERTSON: Eastern Cape supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Free State?

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN: Steun. [Supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Gauteng?

Mr E M SOGONI: Siyavuma. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI: KwaZulu-Natal ithi elethu. [KwaZulu-Natal supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Limpopo?

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Limpopo ya seketela mhani. [Limpopo supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Mpumalanga?

Ms F NYANDA: Mpumalanga is in favour.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Northern Cape?

Mr C M GOEIEMAN: Noord-Kaap steun. [Northern Cape supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: North West is in favour.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Western Cape?

Mr N J MACK: Steun. [Supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): All nine provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the report adopted in terms of section 65 of the Constitution. Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The Council adjourned at 15:26. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS



                        TUESDAY, 9 JUNE 2006

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. Translations of Bills submitted

 (1)    The Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs


      a) Wysigingswetsontwerp op Registrasie van Aktes [W 5 – 2006]
         (National Assembly – sec 75)


     This is the official translation into Afrikaans of the Deeds
     Registries Amendment Bill [B 5 – 2006] (National Assembly – sec
     75)


      b) Wysigingswetsontwerp op Deeltitels [W 8 – 2006] (National
         Assembly – sec 75)
  This is the official translation into Afrikaans of the Sectional
    Titles Amendment Bill [B 5 – 2006] (National Assembly – sec 75).

TABLINGS

National Council of Provinces

1. The Chairperson

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1. The Chairperson

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                        MONDAY, 12 JUNE 2006

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Withdrawal of Bills

   The Minister of Housing withdrew the following Bill on 7 June 2006:

   (a) Prevention of Illegal Eviction from and Unlawful Occupation of Land Amendment Bill [B11 – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 75).

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Finance

   a) Government Notice No 416 published in Government Gazette No 28795 dated 12 May 2006: Setting out particulars of the area demarcated by the Municipality of Emalahleni which shall constitute as an urban development zone, in terms of section 13 quat of the Income Tax Act, 1962 (Act No 58 of 1962).

   b) Government Notice No 357 published in Government Gazette No 28742 dated 19 April 2006: The dimension of, design for, and compilation of, the year 2006 Natura pure gold coin series, in terms of the South African Reserve Bank Act, 1989 (Act No 90 of 1989).

   c) Government Notice No 358 published in Government Gazette No 28742 dated 19 April 2006: The dimension of, design for, and compilation of the year 2006 Protea coin series, in terms of the South African Reserve Bank Act, 1989 (Act No 90 of 1989).

   d) Government Notice No 359 published in Government Gazette No 28742 dated 19 April 2006: The dimension of, design for, and compilation of the year 2006 R1 and R2 pure gold coin series, in terms of the South African Reserve Bank Act, 1989 (Act No 90 of 1989).

   e) Government Notice No 360 published in Government Gazette No 28742 dated 19 April 2006: The dimension of, design for, and compilation of the year 2006 Crown size 2½ ct sterling silver coin series, in terms of the South African Reserve Bank Act, 1989 (Act No 90 of 1989).

   f) Government Notice No 361 published in Government Gazette No 28742 dated 19 April 2006: The dimension of, design for, and compilation of the year 2006 sterling silver coin series, in terms of the South African Reserve Bank Act, 1989 (Act No 90 of 1989).

   g) Government Notice No 602 published in Government Gazette No 28798 dated 12 May 2006: Listing and classification of public entities, in terms of the Public Finance Management Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999).

   h) Government Notice No 403 published in Government Gazette No 28771 dated 26 April 2006: Notice to be issued in terms of section 18A to determine public benefit activities for purposes of deductible donations to certain public benefit organisations, in terms of the Income Tax Act, 1962 (58 of 1962).

2. The Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism

   a) General Notice No 657 published in Government Gazette No 28854 dated 19 May 2006: Proposed guidelines as part of the implementation of Environmental Impact Assessment Regulations in terms of section 24(5) the National Environmental Management Act, 1998 (Act No 107 of 1998).

   b) Government Notice No R494 published in Government Gazette No 28869 dated 2 June 2006: Regulations: Qualification criteria, training and identification of and forms to be used by environmental management inspectors, in terms of the National Environmental Management Act, 1998 (Act No 107 of 1998).

                     TUESDAY, 13 JUNE 2006
   

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Introduction of Bills

 (1)    The Minister of Finance


      a) Small Business Tax Amnesty and Amendment of Taxation Laws Bill
         [B 14 – 2006].


     Introduction in the National Assembly (proposed sec 77) and
     referral to the Portfolio Committee on Finance of the National
     Assembly, as well as referral to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)
     for classification in terms of Joint Rule 160, on 13 June 2006.


     In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of
     the Bill may be submitted to the JTM within three parliamentary
     working days.


      b) Second Small Business Tax Amnesty and Amendment of Taxation
         Laws Amendment Bill [B 15 – 2006] [Explanatory memorandum of
         Bill and prior notice of its introduction published in
         Government Gazette No 8932 of 9 June 2006].


     Introduction in the National Assembly (proposed sec 75) and
     referral to the Portfolio Committee on Finance of the National
     Assembly, as well as referral to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)
     for classification in terms of Joint Rule 160, on 13 June 2006.


     In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of
     the Bill may be submitted to the JTM within three parliamentary
     working days.

1. Draft Bill submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159

(1)     Second Small Business Tax Amnesty and Amendment of Taxation
     Laws Amendment Bill, 2006, submitted by the Minister of Finance on
     13 June 2006.

1. Bill to be referred to Mediation Committee

(1)     Bill, as amended by National Assembly, and rejected by National
    Council of Provinces on 13 June 2006, to be referred to Mediation
    Committee in terms of Joint Rule 186(2)(b):


     (a)      Older Persons Bill [B 68D – 2003] (National Council of
         Provinces – sec 76).

National Council of Provinces

The Chairperson

1. Messages from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces in respect of Bills passed by Assembly and transmitted to Council

 (1)    Appropriation Bill [B 2 – 2006] (National Assembly – sec 77)


     The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on  Finance of
     the National Council of Provinces.

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism

 (1)    Convention on the Conservation and Management of Fishery
       Resources in the South East Atlantic Ocean (SEAFO), tabled in
       terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.

National Council of Provinces

1. The Chairperson

   (1) Draft Report on “Taking Parliament to the People”: Northern Cape, 27 – 31 March 2006.

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COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Council of Provinces:

1. Report of the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs on the Deeds Registries Amendment Bill [B 5 - 2006] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 13 June 2006:

   The Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs, having considered the subject of the Deed Registries Amendment Bill [B 5 - 2006] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, reports the Bill without amendment.

2. Report of the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs on the Sectional Titles Amendment Bill [B 8 - 2006] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 13 June 2006:

   The Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs, having considered the subject of the Sectional Titles Amendment Bill [B 8

   • 2006] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, reports the Bill without amendment.