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National Council of Provinces - 31 October 2006

TUESDAY, 31 OCTOBER 2006 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

                                ____

The Council met at 14:02.

The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Hon members, I would like to welcome all the hon national Ministers and Deputy Ministers present here this afternoon. Please feel welcome.

I have been informed that the Whippery has agreed that there will be no Notices of Motion or Motions without Notice today. Before we proceed to Questions, I would like to inform members that the Minister of Health and the Minister of Social Development are unable to attend the plenary owing to other commitments. However, arrangements have been made that the questions will be responded to in writing, and copies will be circulated amongst members.

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY

                   SOCIAL SERVICES AND GOVERNANCE
                              Cluster 2

MINISTERS:

    Payment of bonuses to Project Consolidate municipal managers

Kgoshi M L Mokoena asked the Minister for Provincial and Local Government:

Whether his department will review the paying of bonuses to managers in municipalities that fall under Project Consolidate; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? C155E

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Hon Chairperson, hon members, the answer to the question from the hon Kgoshi Mokoena is as follows: Bonuses paid to managers in municipalities are based on employment contracts between municipalities as employers and managers as employees. These are subject to performance management systems applicable within municipalities.

The local government municipal performance regulations for municipal managers and managers directly accountable to municipal managers, which were promulgated on 1 August 2006, provide for a performance management system for managers. Based on the outcome of an evaluation of performance, a performance bonus may be paid in recognition of outstanding performance.

In the light of the aforegoing, it is not possible to reverse decisions taken by the employers. However, in future we will monitor the application by those very municipalities of the 2006 regulations.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, I want to thank the Deputy Minister for the response to my question, which I appreciate very much.

Arising from the response, I want to find out from my Deputy Minister if this regulation would also apply to those managers whose municipalities have received qualified reports every year, for the past five years. Do they also qualify for these incentives?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, I hear what the hon member is asking, whether those municipalities would pay their managers even though the Auditor has actually declared that they have had qualified audit reports. It basically depends on each municipality, whether to pay them the bonuses. There is no way that we can impose ourselves on every municipality. But, as I said in the latter statement, we will, however, monitor how the various municipalities apply this regulation.

Report on municipalities that have not appointed CFOs and steps taken

Kgoshi M L Mokoena asked the Minister for Provincial and Local Government:

Whether he will table a report on municipalities that have not appointed chief financial officers and the steps that are being taken by them to address the matter; if not, why not; if so, what measures? C156E

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Madam Chair, the answer to question 49 by the hon Kgoshi Mokoena is: There is a joint programme of support managed by National Treasury and the Department of Provincial and Local Government, in conjunction with the Development Bank of SA DBSA.

The National Treasury has, in respect of metros and secondary cities, appointed experienced financial managers to act as mentors to chief financial officers. On the other hand, the Department of Provincial and Local Government, DPLG, and the DBSA have employed retired town clerks as mentors to chief financial officers in the smaller municipalities. All municipalities have been advised to employ CFOs as part of our monitoring work, as DPLG reports will be compiled on an ongoing basis regarding progress made by municipalities in this regard.

Mr T S RALANE: Deputy Minister, in view of the fact that the municipal systems improvement grant has been underperforming for the past three years, precisely because of the CFOs not being employed in municipalities, what is the department doing about this?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, the question is a new one. Therefore I advise the hon member to table the question for the next sitting.

       Number of learners fed through School Nutrition Scheme

Ms N F Mazibuko asked the Minister of Education:

(a) How many learners have been fed through the School Nutrition Scheme at primary and secondary schools and (b) what percentage of the budget has already been utilised to feed these learners? C196E

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Chairperson, the question concerns the number of learners that are being fed through the School Nutrition Scheme at primary and secondary levels. The reply is as follows: The School Nutrition Scheme provides school meals for 5 996 050 learners at 18 039 schools.

The programme targets primary school learners in areas where poverty levels are greatest. However, the Northern Cape and the Western Cape have extended the programme to some secondary schools. The Western Cape provides school meals to 21 000 learners in a total of 116 quintile 1 and quintile 2 secondary schools, while the Northern Cape provides school meals to 59 862 learners in 101 quintiles 1 and 2 secondary schools. That deals with the first part of the question.

With respect to the allocation for the programme in this financial year the allocation is R1,9 billion of which 47,9% has been spent to date.

Mr E M SOGONI: Thank you, Deputy Chairperson. Hon Minister, do all provinces feed children every day, because some provinces have indicated that they only feed them three days a week? If that is the case, is the department doing anything to rectify that?

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The majority of provinces provide food every day. Some provide the feeding through the scheme itself, while others utilise goods that are generated from school gardens. We encourage schools to establish school gardens and to use the produce from there for additional meals that would be provided to children.

However, provinces are only able to feed school children in terms of the budget that they have available to them for this purpose. So, some may be constrained through budget issues in terms of providing food each day of the school year.

One of the provinces that may find itself in this difficulty is the Eastern Cape, but I know that the province has added more funding in order to try and improve access to nutrition for children in its primary schools.

Mr B J TOLO: Chairperson, I just want to find out from the Minister if the number of learners that she has actually quoted that is on this nutrition programme, if it includes all the deserving learners?

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The chairperson of the select committee asks a very important question. The number is probably not indicative in terms of all deserving learners because there may very well be children from the same home - one in a primary school that has the feeding scheme and another one in a secondary school that does not have it.

As you have heard, two provinces, the Western Cape and the Northern Cape, are feeding learners up to the primary school level in quintiles 1 and 2 schools. So, children in the other provinces, who are deserving of nutritional support but are at secondary school, would not enjoy such access. If by “deserving” you refer to children from the same poor family, but who are in different parts of the schooling system, clearly we are not feeding all children who are poor. But we do believe that those children in primary schools who are receiving food, the R5,9 million almost R6 million now, are children who deserve to be fed and who are in need of nutrition.

Mr T S RALANE: Chairperson, I hope this question is not unfair. Has the department or have the provinces done a study just to establish the reasons why, for instance, if you look at the report of the Intergovernmental Fiscal Relations, especially on school nutrition, the Free State’s grows phenomenally – it is about 39% - and yet Mpumalanga decreases by –2%. Why are there these kind of disparities?

And why, for instance, do you have so many of these numbers going very, very low and many of these provinces going very high in the context of this nutrition? Has the national department and provinces done a study to establish what exactly the reasons are for these growths and decreases in terms of feeding?

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Chairperson, we have not done a study and probably it would be important to do one. There are all sorts of reasons that may impact on levels of funding allocated to the feeding scheme and the fluctuations could be due to student movement numbers. So, one would have to investigate why there are such shifts. The Free State, for example, has had a large migration of students to other provinces. So, one would have to study why it has an increase in its budget.

Also, of course, the fluctuations could be due to the fact that the Department of Education took over the national nutrition programme in 2004 and at the beginning we couldn’t offer the scheme to all schools that merited having the scheme available to them.

So, it would have taken quite some time to get to a point where we would be able to reach all the schools that we needed to reach, and that may be another reason why the Free State is reaching many more farm schools than it might have done in the last financial year.

So, there is a range of reasons that one could look at. It was our view that after two years of implementing the programme we are not at a point where we would feel we could carry out a definitive study. But certainly we would study the intergovernmental review report.

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Chairperson, the Minister explained to us that the Northern Cape and the Western Cape are already feeding some of the secondary schools learners. I would just like to know from the hon Minister, is there perhaps a possibility that in the near future the other provinces could also do likewise by implementing the nutrition programme in secondary schools? The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Chairperson, of course, one of the things we should recognise is that the two provinces we are referring to have the lowest numbers of learners in the country and therefore they should reach many more children.

In terms of extending, what we have done is that we have a number of food gardens established at all the schools that are part of the scheme and we encourage them to share their produce with schools in the vicinity. Therefore secondary schools that may need such assistance would get it.

But, certainly, where there is great need it would be the view of the Department of Education that we should try and find means to assist. We have also asked that what schools should do is where a primary school has a garden and a secondary school doesn’t, the primary school children, interestingly, should work with the secondary school children to help them start a garden.

So, that is the kind of learning we have seen and that is what we really would want to encourage.

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: Minister, I would just like to ask, in the past there were problems with certain service providers getting their payments timeously. Have those problems been sorted out or are they still experiencing the same problems and, if so, could you please indicate in which provinces those problems occur? The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Chairperson, I think there has been significant improvement in the payment of invoices, because we have tried to use a different system in contrast to the past. Of course, our Public Finance Management Act regulations do require that we pay in a set time. So, we have had improvements.

There has been some investigation in the Eastern Cape with respect to service providers; the use of co-operatives as contrasted with established businesses. But, even that didn’t lead to a stop in payments.

We are really cognisant of the fact that late payment of invoices can lead to the failure of a small or medium-sized business. Therefore, we really try to get our systems right to ensure that we do meet our obligations on time.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Thank you, hon Minister of Education. I would like to remind the members of the House that only four supplementary questions are allowed per question and nothing more.

The Second National Operator, Telkom infrastructure, better services and/or lower prices

Mr J M Sibiya asked the Minister of Communications:

(1) When will the Second National Operator (SNO) become operational;

(2) whether the SNO has any plans to roll out its own infrastructure; if so, what plans; if not,

(3) whether the SNO will piggy-back off Telkom’s infrastructure; if so, why;

(4) whether consumers can expect more and better services and/or lower prices once the SNO becomes operational; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? C220E

The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Thank you, Chairperson. The reply to Question 52 is as follows: The Second National Operator, called Neotel, was launched on 31 August 2006, so it is in operation. This Second National Operator’s licence stipulates that the licensee shall be entitled to construct, to maintain and to use the public switched telephone network in the country.

However, the company is also allowed to use the telecommunications facilities of Telkom for a period of two years, as is stated in its licence or where we actually asked for an ITA, an invitation to apply. This allows it to use the facilities for two years under what is called a facilities leasing agreement. After the period of two years, the licensee can still use Telkom’s facilities according to commercial agreements and certain stipulated regulations that are then set by the Independent Communications Authority of SA.

The answer to the fourth part of the question is that the introduction of the Second National Operator will give consumers more choice in terms of the services being offered by other operators. The prices to be offered are not yet available. However, the prices are to be approved by the communications authority based on what are called the COA/CAM regulations, which are regulations in terms of Commonwealth standards. Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr S SHICEKA: Thank you, Deputy Chair. I’d like to ask the Minister of Communications what the other benefits are that the consumers or customers could expect from the telecommunications industry after Neotel has been rolled out, as it has already been launched.

The other question is: Has any study been conducted to check whether South Africans are more interested in using their land lines as opposed to mobile telecommunications, given the fact that many people are using mobiles? If you go to the rural areas, the bundus or anywhere, people are using mobiles because they can have their mobiles with them all the time. Is there any possibility that this industry will develop the landlines, or is this industry on its last legs, so to speak? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Thank you, Chairperson. There may not be immediate benefits that ordinary people will see. But, certainly, in the business sector, those differences will be felt and seen almost immediately.

The benefits will be in terms of prices, but there will also be benefits in terms of the different kinds of services offered. We are already experiencing a rush for the provision of different kinds of services to people and that, hopefully, will bring prices down.

We will have much greater competition, because the laws that we passed earlier this year allow now for greater competition and do make a distinction between those that work on different kinds of technologies, including the possibility of using some of the spectra that were normally allocated for different purposes. This opens up the market. So this may not necessarily be as a result of the SNO, but because of the liberalisation of the regulations.

We are likely to see some drastic reductions in prices, which will be of benefit. The second operator is certainly very aggressive in terms of the kinds of competition it wants to introduce, and that is why it took its time. Between August and now we have not been able to see that immediately, but I’m sure that towards Christmas time we will begin to experience some of the benefits.

With regard to the second question, we have not commissioned a study, but it is something that is constantly being looked at. It is quite clear that there has been a downturn in the use of land lines and a tremendous upswing in the use of cellular telephony, because it is much more convenient for people. The infrastructure that you have to lay out is a very different kind of infrastructure that is much cheaper.

The fact that mobiles have what is called the prepaid system, as everyone knows, has also made access for people much easier as they are able to determine how much airtime they want to use and how much they want to pay.

This has extended the use of mobile telephony by enormous proportions, not only in South Africa but also on the whole of the continent. This is because the infrastructure on the continent not having been as well developed has meant that mobile telephony has burgeoned in Africa much more than in any other part of the world. So we do see more of that. Thank you.

          Roll-out of affordable broadband in South Africa

Ms N D Ntwanambi asked the Minister of Communications:

(1) (a) What has been done to expedite the roll-out of affordable broadband in South Africa, (b) what are the timeframes and (c) what are the social and economic implications;

(2) whether broadband will be accessible and affordable to ordinary South Africans, especially to people located in marginalised and rural areas; if not, why not? C221E

The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: This question deals with the rolling out of affordable broadband in South Africa. As I mentioned earlier on, we have set the legislative and regulatory framework in place for people to be able to construct their own infrastructure or facilities, for example if you have a licence. Not many of the people have as yet taken it up, but clearly when competition comes in, they will.

You will have noticed from the Minister of Finance’s budget speeches that government itself has decided that it should also put in some resources into the building of a massive infrastructure called “Your Highway”. Once that is internalised, we will certainly see much more expansion of broadband. The legislative environment has now been created.

However, because of the technicality and complexity of the interconnection of what is called the local loop - the last stop before you arrive home is called the local loop - … to unbundle that is a complex thing. We have set up a committee regarding broadband called the Local Loop Unbundling Committee, to make sure that when we do that we don’t cause undue difficulties in the communications industry. The committee has been set up; it is working and it will give us recommendations as to how we can unbundle the local loop. This will very likely, drastically reduce the prices.

Most of the people who will feel the reduction of the prices in the local loop will be those that are actually on the fixed lines, and so on. It will certainly also spread to other areas. We believe that this will also catalyse the second economy, because more people will then be able to use broadband and, therefore, bring different kinds of services that have traditionally not been used by the second economy. In doing so and by having this kind of broadband, it will also reduce the cost of doing business in South Africa because that has been a great challenge for us.

Once the things that I have mentioned have been done, the broadband will be accessible to ordinary people. We must understand that we will have two types – we will have the fixed broadband and the mobile broadband. The former will come in the form of, for example, your fibre optics and the second one will be your wireless broadband.

That wireless broadband can be in smaller areas and larger areas, for example five or 10 km a maximum and then those that would be 50 km. The smaller one would be broadband, for example, over a particular city area or over a building, which would then allow for the use of that broadband, whereas the 50 km would be like a small town. So, in that way, ordinary people will be able to have access to that broadband and be able to use it in their businesses, hopefully in the schools, clinics, etc. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr J M SIBIYA: Thank you, Chair. ICT, Information and Communication Technology, Minister, is a very important thing in terms of ensuring that as South Africa and Africa, we are able to jump the digital divide. Are there any discussions that have been conducted in this respect to ensure … [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Will all members please switch off their cellphones.

Mr J M SIBIYA: … in Africa as a whole the issue of broadband - because it is very critical that it is at the centre of activities - is also brought on board? As you know, South Africa is one of the leading countries in ensuring that Africa is able to communicate with itself and the world. Now, if there is any structure of the Ministers that discusses issues of the ICT, are there any discussions, in that structure, which it has conducted in respect of the broadband being extended to the whole of Africa? I thank you. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Yes, hon member, there have been such discussions within South Africa, but also continentwide. As you also know that under the AU we have what is called regional economic sections – five of them. So, with us, even in SADC, certainly, this has been actively pursued; but also within Eastern and Southern Africa this has been actively pursued.

You will also have heard that we have embarked on an undersea cable to link up parts of East Africa. However, the project also says that countries that are landlocked should be able to be partners in the undersea cable, even if they are not situated on the coast itself, so that they can, once they are linked to that cable, develop a terrestrial cable either jointly or within their countries.

This will help us to have this connection among or between African countries in the region, but between all other African countries irrespective of which regions they come from and, therefore, also link them to the outside world.

So, there is something being done on the Eastern side and so there is already one that is being conceptualised, because there is one that exists on the Western side. It is almost at full capacity and people are already thinking about the second cable that can be linked. We will be able to connect faster, the East, West, North and South. So, there have been discussions.

The importance of this for us as South Africans is that with the broadband you will not only be able to communicate but also send enormous amounts of data, images, in other words pictures, etc. What it would mean for ordinary people is that they could be in a clinic where their X-rays are being sent through to Cape Town, Bloemfontein or Johannesburg. Suppose all doctors had this in their hospitals and let’s say they have a complicated case that they need to discuss, they could all discuss it because the new infrastructure would make it possible for them to do so.

It is also for the financial services sectors where moneys have to be transferred. So, it will help ordinary people to be able to have money transferred from banks, etc, even in rural areas, once the broadband can reach those areas. I thank you. [Applause.]

     Palliative care as component of social work qualifications

Ms H Lamoela asked the Minister of Education:

Whether, in light of the growing need for social workers to manage the consequences of the HIV/Aids epidemic, it is required that degrees and diplomas for social work include a specific component on palliative care; if not, (a) why not and (b) what steps are being taken to rectify this situation; if so, what are the relevant details? C276E

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Chairperson, the response to both parts of the question is that the curriculum for higher education programmes, including social work, is determined by universities themselves, of course in conjunction and collaboration with the relevant professional bodies as appropriate. Therefore I, as Minister, do not determine the content of academic programmes at universities.

However, I am aware that most institutions are increasingly responding to the need to include issues relating to HIV and Aids in all academic programmes that they offer. In this regard, the Department of Education and the higher education sector through Higher Education South Africa, Hesa, are running a donor-funded programme – Higher Education Aids - which is addressing a whole range of matters on this subject that impinge on university students, university life, as well as looking at how you integrate HIV and Aids matters into the curriculum.

Mr S SHICEKA: Minister, are the institutions of higher learning being sensitised to be able to respond to the challenges that the country is experiencing and is facing? My only experience is that - including the issues that have been raised here - you find that you are taught old things because people sit in universities without having practical experience of what is happening. Is there any way of ensuring that they are grounded and responsive to the needs of the country? The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Chairperson, usually universities are leaders in intellectual thought in most societies of the world. So they shouldn’t need to be pushed to lead in terms of development of particular programmes, modernising of curricular, as well as responsiveness to national need and interest.

We, of course, come from a particular history where we’ve not always had such responsiveness. We are working with institutions to strengthen the ability of higher education to act in a manner that supports the developmental objectives of South Africa. We are engaged with institutions on a consistent basis. I have regular meetings with the leadership of Hesa. We do meet with student organisations and student leaders from the various campuses. And these matters are the subjects of a great deal of discussion.

Just yesterday, we had a half-day seminar with the leadership in higher education where a paper was presented concerning throughput and success rates in higher education. It really began to alert our universities to the need to look at the current curriculum frameworks and the degree to which they may be unresponsive to emerging needs in the country. So, these are matters that are alive and which we do deliberate upon.

Steps to clarify results of interpretation of latest Upper Limits of
               Remuneration for Municipal Councillors

Mr A Watson asked the Minister for Provincial and Local Government:

Whether his department is taking any steps to clarify the confusion and consequential inconsistent interpretation of the latest publication of the Upper Limits of Remuneration for Municipal Councillors; if not, why not; if so, what steps? C281E

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Madam Chairperson, I would like to firstly reassure the hon Mr Watson that there is no confusion. The hon member has not provided us with the information and the basis on which he has formed an opinion. However, our department is always available to offer assistance to those municipalities which on certain occasions do experience difficulty with the implementation of a Government Notice, relating to the termination of upper limits for the remuneration of councillors.

Whenever such instances do arise, the department clarifies matters at formal meetings of the relevant intergovernmental relations structures and through correspondence.

Mr A WATSON: Hon Minister, I would have thought that since the confusion is so well known throughout the country, the department would also be aware of it. An example is that the new determinations have also changed the format for determining whether a municipality is a grade one, two, three, four, five or six regarding the purpose of determining salaries.

In doing that, all grade five municipalities, or most of them – certainly all of them in Mpumalanga - have been reduced to grade four, which in effect means that councillors now get less than what they got before the increased salaries. This is causing a lot of problems. If the department is not aware of it, then I can understand why there’s confusion in so many municipalities concerning other matters. It’s really an urgent thing. The department must give attention to it and clarify the matter.

Councillors have been paid wrong salaries. They already have to pay back between R20 000 and R50 000 at this stage. So please don’t tell me there’s no confusion.

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Hon Chairperson, I still maintain that the department clarifies matters at formal meetings of the relevant intergovernmental relations structures and through correspondence. Government has adopted an intergovernmental framework, and that’s where matters are clarified.

Mr A WATSON: Chairperson, please let me ask the Deputy Minister for the third time to answer my question. The Constitution, despite any formal meetings or bodies that exist, determines that the executive has to be responsive to Parliament in the first place. And I am fully entitled to ask the Deputy Minister and her department a question. If they can’t answer the question, it is better to say so rather than to come with circumvents.

Now, for the third time, would the Minister please answer me by telling me what steps have been taken to rectify the confusion that exists regarding this publication?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Hon Chairperson, I don’t know how to answer this question. Maybe I should speak in Sesotho because initially I had said that Mr Watson must bring concrete evidence. We have not been provided with that evidence so that the department can look into the matter – whether it’s in Mpumalanga or Gauteng. That kind of information that I’ve actually asked from Mr Watson has not been submitted. So I don’t understand when he raves on and says that we are refusing to answer him. We can’t answer on something that we don’t have concrete information about.

Mr A WATSON: I will make a follow-up with a written question.

Decline in learner enrolment in Free State and possible redeployment of educators

Mr T S Setona asked the Minister of Education:

(1) What is the cause of the decline in the enrolment of learners in some schools in the Free State, necessitating possible redeployment of educators to other schools;

(2) whether her department has conducted any research into this phenomenon; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? C286E

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I was a bit confused for a moment, because the Question Paper has different numbering, Chairperson. It did cause us some difficulty, this change in numbering, but here is the response.

According to the Free State Department of Education, the drop in learner enrolments is mainly attributable to families moving from the Free State to Gauteng and other provinces, in pursuit of new employment opportunities. In particular, the department points out that this may be related to the fact that there has been a decline in mining activity in the Free State, and therefore it is a great loss of persons previously employed in the mining industry.

The information that I referred to has been provided to the Department of Education by school principals. At this point we have not conducted any research with regard to changing enrolments due to internal migration.

I would like to add to the question the matter of migration of students and the changing enrolment patterns, which tends to occur at the beginning of the year without any notice to the Department of Education. It is often those parents who appear in schools just as the schools open and demand that the children be registered.

What we are doing is developing a national learner records database as the national Department of Education, in collaboration with the provincial departments of education, so that, for the first time, once we have this database, we will be able to track children if they move from one school to another. At the moment you cannot. It is very difficult. You need a national tracking system, which allows you to actually know from year to year what the changing patterns of enrolment are, and how to organise the system so that it can effectively meet the administrative and other challenges relating to enrolment patterns.

            Single Public Service and placement of staff

Mr Z C Ntuli asked the Minister for the Public Service and Administration:

When will (a) there be a single Public Service and (b) the placement of staff be completed? C297E

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Thank you very much, Chairperson. On this particular question I would like to start by ensuring that we have a common understanding of the single Public Service.

I want to state that what we are looking at is ensuring that we get the Department of Public Service and the Department of Local Government to work together, in order to facilitate a single integrated type of service delivery, and again in order to ensure that citizens receive services at their convenience, in a manner in which the fragmentation that is currently there in instances of service delivery does not occur.

Now for this to happen there is a need for co-operative institutional arrangements and that is the issue that I will come back to later.

Central to the establishment of a single Public Service is the enactment of enabling legislation. Significant progress has been made in this regard and a draft Bill is currently being finalised in consultation with the concerned departments, and it is the intention that we submit this legislation to Cabinet later in November 2006.

Subsequent to this, obviously the Bill will be published for stakeholder comment, and we foresee that consultation will take place over the period of January and February 2007 - prior to it being resubmitted to Cabinet and then submitted to Parliament. Clearly it is a matter that the NCOP will have to engage itself in. Arising from the adoption of such legislation by Parliament, we see ourselves as publishing regulations and there is a complete timetable for this.

Our anticipation is that the single Public Service Act and regulations will commence in about March 2009. I think one should emphasise that this will be informed by the nature of consultations and inputs that come out of the public consultation process.

Parallel to the legislative process itself, there are task teams responsible for implementation of the work plan for a single Public Service. They have commenced their work, where they were looking at the norms and standards on information and communication technology. They are looking at human resource management and human resource development, as well as service delivery and anticorruption work.

Work has also commenced on cascading Batho Pele to the local government level - as you are aware - and because Batho Pele has been adopted by the Department of Public Service and Administration it was seen as something not necessarily applicable to the Department of Local Government. But I think one can say that what is very positive, is the fact that it is cascading down to local government departments and it has been given impetus in terms of its implementation within the Public Service. The single Public Service legislation will enable common norms and standards for human resource management and development, as I have stated earlier, as well as remuneration and conditions of service within the single Public Service. There is also going to be the complexity and challenge of dealing with labour relations within this framework, because we would have to look at how that is managed.

I think there is bit of nervousness from some of the unions who are operating in the local government sphere, who may just be concerned about their status. But there is no intention to disrupt the role of those unions, and I want to emphasise that we are neither looking at changing the Public Service, nor changing the Constitution necessarily. What we are looking at is how we could facilitate a better way of ensuring integrated service delivery.

And for that to happen we should be able to facilitate greater mobility of public servants across the various spheres of government. If we talk about co-operative governance, we also need to ensure that our legal and regulatory framework facilitates that.

Mr Z C NTULI: Chairperson, on subsection (b), I just need to find out whether the placement has been completed?

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: On subsection (b), in terms of the broader human resource component of the Public Service, there has not been a completion of the placement of all staff, but in terms of those departments such as Water Affairs, Health and others, that process has virtually been completed.

There are specific departments that were looking at relocation of staff in the local government sphere. There are still some challenges that are being resolved, but in terms of the regulatory environment for their placement, that has been resolved some time ago.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, arising from the Hon Minister’s appetising reply, could I find out, through the hon Chairperson, whether the staff in question will include, I repeat, will include staff in the offices of traditional leaders?

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: This is quite a challenging question. I have not done a review or an assessment of the staff in the offices of the traditional authorities, so it is quite difficult to look at it. When we look clearly at a single Public Service, our endeavour is to actually deepen and develop our human resource base, so we would like to ensure that we have the most competent people placed correctly across the Public Service.

At this point in time we may have people located at the national level who may add greater value in the municipality or probably within the traditional authority. Similarly, we may have someone in the traditional authority who we feel should instead be a chief executive officer of a parastatal; but we will only be able to determine that once we have done an audit of what their skills and competencies are across the various arms of government, if I may put it in that way.

Mr S SHICEKA: Chairperson, the issue of the single Public Service is quite a fascinating one, about which we can even learn from our neighbours in Botswana on what they are doing in terms of horizontal and vertical mobility. However, I was with the Public Service Commission today. What is going to be the role of the Public Service Commission, because at the local level there is no Public Service Commission? When I raised the question in the meeting they were not clear about what is expected of them as an institution in that eventuality.

The last point is on the issue of other consequences and what has been planned around them. One of them, for example, is the disparity of salaries, especially since the Department of Provincial and Local Government is paying better salaries compared to other spheres of government. How long is it going to take to ensure that there is parity in terms of the vision around planning? In that respect are we going to be able to see that single Public Service within our lifetime?

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, it depends on whether the hon Shiceka intends living a short life or a long one … [Laughter.] … but we will give him the benefit of the doubt.

First and foremost, I will agree that the single Public Service is quite complex and fascinating. It is complex in terms of how we configure it, but in terms of the outcome, I think it is quite straightforward. We want integrated service delivery to the citizens and it does not matter whether citizens enter a local government office or a provincial office, the provision of services should be there, irrespective of the type of service the citizens want to reach. It is about being able to receive the chain of services from birth to death, whether we use the ICTs for development and accessibilities, or otherwise.

That is why we would like to see a situation whereby the multipurpose community centres become exactly that, and that is providing services or the basket of services that the citizens require. What is the role of the Public Service Commission? I do not know if they have informed you that I had just done a briefing to them at the last plenary meeting, on the single Public Service.

Yes, indeed, if they narrowly followed the Constitutional mandate, their mandate is to be responsible for the Public Service, which is national and provincial government. However, I think we cannot build Chinese walls, and I would humbly say that the Public Service Commission has a role to play at local government level if we were to look at the provision of services.

Already we have had a situation where commissioners have engaged in questions relating to Batho Pele and otherwise. They are dealing with this vexed question.

But remember, it is Parliament that reviews the mandates of chapter 9 and 10 institutions. It is not for me as a member of the executive to do so, but as a parliamentarian I could advise and if I could advise, I would see it through logically. If we talk about integrated and similar service delivery, let there be a role for the commission at local authority level as well.

In terms of parity in relation to remuneration or salaries, we clearly have … and I have stated earlier that we are hoping that by January 2009, the single Public Service regulations will be, in principle, considered for approval and that possibly by January 2009 it could be gazetted.

This depends on the engagement that we will have next year, and the year after that on the legislation. Remember that you will have a big role; it is not going to be an easy task, because there are a number of stakeholders here and I do not think that all stakeholders are equally comfortable with the concept of a single Public Service. The reason is because some see it as taking the rights and powers away from them, which is not the intention of a single Public Service. We would then be able to talk, not necessarily about parity, but about the alignment, because I think we must have flexibility around salary bands and remuneration.

If you look at the metros and you look at the Public Service, directors- general and others, there is definitely a situation where your municipal managers get paid considerably more than directors- general in national and provincial departments. It is not across all municipalities horizontally, where their salaries are more than that in the Public Service, but the hon member having operated at provincial level around local government, knows that it depends on the size of the municipalities and so on, and that impacts on the salary levels.

But this is a matter that we are considering. It is a matter for discussion that we do want to take forward. Is it going to happen in our lifetime, if this House is active it should, and if our lifetime is the electoral period, let us see what we can do?

Ms A N T MCHUNU: Chairperson, hon Minister, this is a rather controversial issue, but it does exist. I want to firstly deal with the question of employment giving opportunities to the local people. This will call for good training in our further education and training colleges or nursing or whatever college which exist, or even at our universities.

There are these jealousies when people think that those people who do not belong to a place seem to be taking their positions. A case that comes to mind is the one about the nurses who were in the Eastern Cape province and who came from the KwaZulu-Natal province. They could not perform their duties simply because they came from outside the Eastern Cape province, and the question was how could nurses from KwaZulu-Natal be employed in the Eastern Cape when there are unemployed nurses in the Eastern Cape?

I do not know how we are going to handle this, but it will be necessary for our legislation to state that the local people should come forward first and be interviewed and, if at all, they do not qualify, then we can consider those who come from outside the area in question.

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, I think the one thing that I would like to raise is that when you talk about the mobility of public servants, let us talk about the police services. With the Police Service you are generally employed to the Service and not to a particular post at a police station.

I think we would always want to be able to retain the fact that you want to have the mobility of your forces. We have seen that when we look at our history, and that is something which some people want to forget, sometimes you have the problem that if you have people in a particular area who may just become a bit contaminated by local problems and realities, then you need to move them out to actually give them a broader scope and experience by going to other places, and bringing in a fresh and different team into a particular area.

The whole issue of mobility in the Public Service is not to deprive local people from access to employment, but it is in order to bring a different set of experiences; a different skills base; and if there may be an absence of those skills, and so on.

I do not think that you will have the same nervousness now when you bring in nurses from KwaZulu-Natal to the Eastern Cape or vice versa. We have a shortage of nurses at this point in time. When you look at our medical personnel, we have brought in doctors from different parts of the world into certain areas, and they have actually learned isiXhosa surprisingly well, and they speak it better than some of us who have been around, so that they know what the heart and the kidneys are in isiXhosa, and so on.

There has never been any intention to replace the role of the local skills set and that is what we would like to see ideally. We would also want to have a situation were we move people in order for them to gain experiences or to bring in experience or scarce skills that may not be available, but with the intention to ensure skills transfer as well.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Hon members, as far as Question 60, to the hon Minister of Housing, is concerned, I am informed that the hon Minister is sick and therefore the question will stand over. We will go back to Question 61, to the Minister for Provincial and Local Government.

   Project Consolidate and improved performance by municipalities

Mr S Shiceka asked the Minister for Provincial and Local Government:

(1) For how long will Project Consolidate be in place in municipalities;

(2) whether any process of evaluating and rating municipalities as to whether they are improving their performance under this project is in place; if not, why not; if so, how many municipalities (a) are about to come out of Project Consolidate and (b) will continue to be supported? C294E

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Madam Chair, the answer to question 61 from the hon Shiceka is as follows: Project Consolidate was launched in October 2004 as an extraordinary two-year initiative to build up and strengthen the capacity of targeted municipalities. Thus, Project Consolidate in its current form will cease to exist before the end of 2006. Currently, it is being wound down, and it will be replaced by a new programme in terms of the five-year plan for the provision of hands-on support to the various municipalities.

Secondly, key performance indicators have been developed to assess the capacity, capability and the performance of targeted municipalities. These relate to municipal transformation and institutional development; to basic services and infrastructure; to local economic development, financial viability and financial management; and, lastly, to good governance and public participation.

A comprehensive assessment of progress by each of these municipalities is currently under way. Current indications are that some municipalities are making significant progress, while others are still experiencing difficulties. Poorly performing municipalities are being closely monitored by the national government and the relevant provincial departments.

Lastly, all the relevant details will be included in the assessment report of Project Consolidate, which will be available in January 2007. Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, I thank the Minister for the concise reply. Arising from the reply, I want to find out from the hon Deputy Minister if the envisaged new programme to replace Project Consolidate is going to be implemented by the same managers in those municipalities, or are there other mechanisms to make sure that it is going to be implemented by people who are well trained?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, hon Kgoshi Mokoena, in terms of the Project Consolidate programme, the department has, as we speak, in fact deployed many skilled personnel to the various municipalities, particularly to the struggling municipalities, whether they are highly skilled people who can actually look after the finances of the municipalities, etc. They are already on the ground and are assisting the local municipalities with the lack of skills that we have been experiencing.

What would happen with the new programme is that we will maintain those highly skilled personnel that we have actually called upon throughout the country to continue assisting those municipalities. Some of the municipalities are not as bad, but others are quite bad. We will then do this audit, and see where these skills need to be maintained and also for this new programme to kick in.

Mr T S RALANE: Chair, I would like to ask the Minister whether Siyenzamanje is a duplication of Project Consolidate or a value added to Project Consolidate.

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Siyenzamanje is an integrated programme that involves various government departments and not just the Department of Provincial and Local Government. This is because what we have to do in terms of the intergovernmental relations formula is integrated in our programmes so that, for instance, the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry does not work in one little corner, while the Department of Provincial and Local Government works alone in another little corner.

This is so that whenever we do service delivery it makes an impact in a particular area. But, if we do it individually, it won’t necessarily carry the impact that we would like to see in improving the lives of our ordinary people.

Ms A N T MCHUNU: Chairperson, hon Minister, in terms of the pulling out from the areas in the municipalities that are helped by Project Consolidate, I wonder if it wouldn’t be better to have the report first and to assess the performance of whatever has been done before pulling out. This is because one may find that the people haven’t actually been satisfied.

If we pull out before the report is written, people will not trust us anymore. They will say that we come with a programme that leaves them hanging in the air, and then we pull out, leaving them and throwing them into something else. I am just wondering if there couldn’t be evaluation first before pulling out?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, I think I did say at the end of my response that the report on the assessment of Project Consolidate would be tabled in January 2007. I did say that in my response. I think we shouldn’t really view the end of Project Consolidate’s life term as pulling out. We have a responsibility to our people to improve their lives. I did say, in my response as well, that there was a new programme that would be implemented.

We will then take from that assessment report how we have fared in the various municipalities with their various problems. This is because municipalities don’t necessarily have the same problems. They vary in terms of their problems, and they vary in terms of their lack of skills. So, let’s wait until January 2007. Once the report has been tabled, we will then make a proper assessment from an informed position.

Samdi contribution to skills development and role in building a skills base

Ms F Nyanda asked the Minister for the Public Service and Administration:

(1) What are the contributions of the SA Management Development Institute (Samdi) to skills development;

(2) whether Samdi is properly capacitated to play its role of building a skills base in respect of all the citizens; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? C298E

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, in terms of the first part of the question, I think that it is necessary to state that Samdi has a legal mandate and central role to undertake, or cause to be undertaken, capacity-building in the Public Service, with particular focus on developing the professional competence of managers at various levels.

The strategic priorities of the public sector human resource development strategy in the current period to which Samdi is seeking to respond, are as follows: To refine and accelerate the implementation of government’s comprehensive outcomes-focused programme for capacity development; to improve the coherence, co-ordination and efficacy of all government’s policies, institutions and mechanisms responsible for training and capacity development of the Public Service; and to implement a credible and comprehensive programme to address strategically scarce skills such as financial management, communication skills and project management; and, to ensure that the programme pays attention to the critically important areas of norms, values, attitudes and orientations that are consistent with the objectives of the developmental state.

The 2005-06 Samdi annual report indicates that within that financial year, 15 000 officers were trained by Samdi over a total of approximately 80 000 person training days, which is a 21% increase on training days for the previous year.

Three quarters of the training and development services were delivered by Samdi itself, or at least by its list of selected, independent training contractors.

One quarter of the training and development services, especially with regard to the senior levels of the integrated management development programme, were rendered by external service providers such as universities or private sector training organisations appointed by tenders through the procurement processes.

The second part of the question is whether Samdi is properly capacitated to play its role of building the skills base. The mandate of Samdi is that of the Public Service rather than the citizenry as a whole. Government is, however, as we are all aware, the largest employer in the country, with over a million people working in national government, in provincial governments and with approximately 300 000 in local government. The development of the skills base of the cadres of government employees thus contributes significantly to the overall skills base of the nation.

Samdi currently applies different modes of delivery to build capacity in the Public Service, and it has its own core of approximately 20 full-time trainers. It screens and trains a complement of approximately 120 part-time associates.

In addition, Samdi has recently established a comprehensive network of strategic partnerships with a wide range of higher education institutions. These include the universities of Pretoria, Cape Town, North West, the Free State, Stellenbosch and Fort Hare, as well as the Tshwane University of Technology and Unisa. Altogether the work done by these partners has contributed to the 80 000 person training days that were referred to earlier.

Now, in terms of how adequate this volume is, on the one hand, it compares favourably to similar sized schools of government in other countries, for example in the United Kingdom, albeit that they train people at a more senior level, and the total of on-board trainers plus associates at Samdi is similar to that, for example, of Canada.

However, we are involved in a review process right now in which a ministerial committee has been set up, and they have completed their report. We are going to consult with the institutions of higher education on the kind of model proposed; where we are actually looking at Samdi and reviewing its current model in terms of the way in which it is structured institutionally.

Mr T S RALANE: Chair, thank you very much. Regarding the Vulindlela Academy at the DPSA, to what extend is it talking to Samdi in terms of doing the very same things that they are doing; in other words, the kind of integration that we see between the two structures?

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: There have been overtures from the Vulindlela Academy, but I don’t think that we could … [Interjections.] I don’t know what has created the laughter here … maybe I’ve missed something.

I should say that I don’t think that there is duplication in any way. I think if we look at the broad needs, there is the ability for everyone to work in specific environments. But, I don’t get the sense that the Vulindlela Academy and Samdi’s work are either a duplication or contradictory in any way whatsoever.

Mr A J L MOSEKI: Chairperson, this is a very tempting continental question. There is a tendency among our public servants to move to other countries. This question has to do with when that situation prevails - once the DRC is free and they go to work there. I just want to check with the Minister if we are getting ready for that eventuality, because we may lose some of these public servants. The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: I think the hon member is raising a very important question. I think our problem is not only when the DRC’s presidential election is resolved, and the mobility thereafter. We currently have a situation with the global environment of more open labour markets. We’ve seen the mobility of public servants.

We can talk about various sectors, the health sector, for example, in which the movement is not necessarily on the continent, but to more developed countries where people follow either the petrodollar, or they go to Europe, North America and elsewhere. Are we dealing with this eventuality in terms of skills training?

I think, if I talk specifically about the health sector, you know that we’ve opened all the nursing colleges. We are reopening them. This was a Cabinet decision in January this year, and this is very clearly an attempt for us to do training in order to be able to fill the vacancies that are there in the various health institutions.

We also need to prepare for the fact that, very clearly, the skills that we have in South Africa are seen as marketable, and that we should look at dealing with the fact that people move. But, on the other hand, we’ve also engaged with developed countries in specific instances and said that we have problems with this seepage. So this is not just to the developing world.

Coming back to the issue of the DRC: We‘ve actually placed public servants to specifically work on collaborative programmes there. We hope that won’t lead them to leave us, but rather that they’ll develop a new set of skills and come back to utilise them in South Africa. Thank you.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, let me thank the Minister for the calculated and well-thought-out response. Arising from the initial response and in terms of appreciating what Samdi is doing in trying to train our managers, what are we going to do with those officials, of course looking at a sunset clause, who have reached the ceiling and are no longer trainable. Samdi can do whatever it can but, for lack of a better word, here is this deadwood that is no longer trainable. What are we doing, hon Minister?

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: The hon Kgoshi is asking interesting and difficult questions this afternoon. This is broader than the issue of specifically training by Samdi, but it is a vexed human resource issue.

Hon member, we do not want to see ourselves as carrying deadwood in the Public Service. Yesterday I was involved in an imbizo on the West Rand, specifically in Kagiso. There were about 1 500 public servants attending that meeting. The nature of the engagement there was very interesting.

We had public servants on the one side of the spectrum who, very clearly, were interested in how they could better capacitate themselves in service delivery. This included service workers, cleaners in hospitals, etc, who were saying, “We would like to be exposed to further skills development; we want to get into the Abet programmes; we would like to improve our skills.”

On the other side of the spectrum, we had public servants who were just interested in seeing how they could get better salaries and conditions of service and, at heart, had no interest in the citizen.

In essence, in response there, I said; “We don’t want to keep within the Public Service those who cannot bring value.” I think that that is even more of an issue of training. You correctly said that some of them are untrainable. Some of them are actually quite indifferent. This is because an untrainable person suggests that the human mind is no longer open to stimulation, and I don’t think of people in that way necessarily. But I do believe that there are people that have an attitude; that they are just there to draw a salary and don’t have any real contribution to make. We want those people to bow out.

Now, we do have an instrument at the moment that encourages people to go of their own volition. This is what we call the employee-initiated severance package. This package is one in which an employee can actually apply to his or her supervisor to be discharged. We have had a number of people who have applied.

The difference between this package and the voluntary severance package is that unlike the VSP where we could not refuse people who decided to leave, with the employee-initiated package we can actually refuse and say, “No, you are not deadwood. We actually think that you have a contribution to make, but Jack or Sipho sitting next to you is deadwood.” We can’t say this in that way, but that person would be encouraged to leave.

The leaving of the deadwood is dependent on supervisors and managers doing very good performance reviews, because if we performance-manage people well, then we should get rid of them. The theory that people have of it being difficult to fire people from the Public Service, is because they refuse to really study the human resource framework that is there and to use the tools that you can use to discharge people from the Public Service.

Examples of that are quite clear. We’ve actually refined the instrument. If you were to ask the Public Service Commission, they will tell you that it is easier to discharge people who are not doing their work. But if managers don’t want to do the tough things … They say, “Well, you know there is the labour relations framework within the Public Service.” That’s just a cop-out. It’s people who are not willing to manage properly. Ms A N T MCHUNU: Hon Chairperson, I would like to thank the Minister for the booklet that was produced on the code of conduct. It is very helpful indeed.

Now, looking at managers and their role and helping their employees, I wonder if the training could not include basic epidemiology because we are haunted by particularly TB and HIV. Epidemiology deals with the diseases that are prevalent in an area and how they spread.

In this way, each and every manager could be a health educator of sorts too, because we cannot leave it to health personnel only to deal with the extent of diseases that are spreading in our country.

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon member, you want to say that every public servant must be a health worker: One public servant, one health worker. I hear that, and I am sure the Minister of Health will be very positive about this as well.

I do want to say that we do have a health and wellness workplace programme, and we do have specialised personnel who look at this area of work in terms of human resource practitioners who look at this issue. I am sure that we should look at how we deal with these issues.

But, I think, it would be rather difficult for me to make a commitment on how this is done. I’m sure there could be consideration under some of the induction programmes that look more broadly at issues around values and so on. I am not sure whether we can bring that in. But let us think about it. Let me not make a commitment here today. I do note the concern that was raised.

SA impact on public service in Africa and the world and post-conflict
                             challenges

Mr S Shiceka asked the Minister for the Public Service and Administration:

(1) What impact does South Africa have on (a) Africa and (b) the world in the field of public service;

(2) what are the successes and challenges that are particular to countries after conflicts have ended? C299E

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, in answer to the question, “What impact does South Africa have on Africa and the world in the field of public service?” I would say that we are playing a fairly significant role in the area of public service on our continent. I am currently the Chair of the African Ministers for the public and civil service. South Africa is playing a role in developing and strengthening the conceptual framework that determines methods of service delivery.

I think it is also necessary to say that when we look at the level of Ipsa – International Political Science Association - we also try and look at developing an alternative approach and theory towards reinventing government, public administration and governance, with the whole thrust of taking into account our approach to building a developmental state, and bearing in mind that it is not the developmental state as defined by the East Asian Tigers and so on, but one that is very clearly based on the principles in our Constitution.

The Pan-African Ministers’ programme, chaired by South Africa, has inspired African member states to focus on the following key governance and public administration issues. We have looked at the implementation of the African Public Service Charter. I must say that it was quite a step to have taken, because the public service across the continent is not homogenous.

We must bear in mind that we also come from different colonial histories, where we have Francophone Africa, Anglophone Africa and Lusophone Africa, and different legal and constitutional frameworks informing the nature of the legal and administrative environment in those countries. But we believe that there are certain normative values that underpin the Public Service. Secondly, we are looking at strengthening public sector effectiveness; rationalising the role of the regional economic communities; improving human resource development; strengthening anticorruption issues; developing measures on information and communication technology; as well as supporting post-conflict reconstruction and management. Regarding that, we have played a specific role in the DRC, the Sudan, Burundi and so on. We have worked collaboratively with those countries, as per their request. We don’t lead; they lead the initiatives and we support that work, in addition to the work on the Ministers’ committee.

Then there has also been the launch of the African Management Development Institutes Network. This is the schools of government across the continent as well as universities, and then of course there has been the recognition of Public Service Day as well.

In addition to that, regarding the world more broadly, we have also engaged in both of the UN bodies, that is, firstly, the committee of experts on public administration. We are playing a role there. We also play an active role in the International Institute of Administrative Sciences that is located in Brazil and Belgium. South Africa has just taken over the presidency of the Commonwealth Association for Public Administration and Management. We enjoy bilateral relationships with several countries, and I have referred to Ipsa as well.

What are the successes and challenges that are particular to countries where the conflict has ended? As a government, our assistance to post- conflict countries is aimed at rebuilding the Public Service as a critical contribution to promotion and strengthening of democracy on our continent, and the building of peace, stability and prosperity.

One example where we have been actively engaged as a government at a bilateral level has been in assisting the government of southern Sudan. This is, working very closely with the Department of Foreign Affairs to resolve conflict and striving for a peaceful and democratically governed state. There has been collaboration between Samdi in that instance, and the Department of Foreign Affairs and Unisa to train senior officials from Southern Sudan in a range of public administration competencies.

In February this year, we had a 31-member delegation that visited for practical training. They visited both Samdi and DPSA. We had another group of 38 which completed practical training in September 2006. You are aware that we are doing very extensive work in the DRC. One of the pieces of work has been the Public Service census. We have helped them to do their census. They have been able to uncover ghosts within their Public Service and so on.

We have also worked on the anti-corruption initiatives. We were involved in assisting them to establish a school of public service and so on. There is a lot more that I can talk about, but I would say that our challenge in certain instances has been the language, in some of these countries. We clearly need to learn French in order to be able to engage. There are of course South Africans who do speak French, but within the Public Service we are grappling with 11 languages and we need to go beyond that.

We would also say that these initiatives are not without challenges, in the sense that to secure adequate and sustained international support and funding is one of the most important preconditions for meeting the goals of post-conflict reconstruction. Let me pause there. We will engage in the discussion that ensues.

Mr S SHICEKA: Chairperson, the Minister got a bit concerned about the issue that Vulindlela is making overtures. That was about the use of the term, nothing else. Ms Matyolo knows what overtures means in our Pondo language. [Interjections.]

The question that I am raising is whether there is any investment in the area of research and development, so that we are able to use the cutting- edge methods and technologies around the public service in Africa and also benefit from the South-South relations between ourselves, Brazil, India and so on?

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, maybe it was an unfortunate language usage, because I am sure that the word overtures means the same in English as when it is used by the Pondos. I was not talking about the person Vulindlela, but about the institution, and I thought that the overture would be less likely in that instance. I will be sensitive to the hon member’s consideration in future.

In terms of investment in the area of research and development, indeed that is the area that we are looking at. You are right about cutting-edge technologies in South-South relations. We can look at this in various ways. There is an attempt to develop collaboration at the level of governance that will take this into account.

If you would go back to the Stellenbosch declaration of May 2003, we said, as one of the points in the declaration, that we would challenge African academics and intellectual leaders to actively engage with the approach and content of the programme to ensure that vigorous debate is generated, assumptions questioned and the programme enriched and improved.

The next point says “request the current work of regional and subregional institutions to focus on public sector research; data collection and analysis, knowledge management and learning to be supported and incorporated in the overall governance and public administration programme”.

So indeed we are looking at it. We haven’t adequately built that research capacity. Even regarding South Africa, India and Brazil, we are looking at how we can do this collaboratively. You are right, regarding the cutting- edge stuff and there is a lot to be captured, even if we look at the area of ICT and its usage for rolling out service delivery and so on.

I have just recently been with colleagues from other African countries. I can talk about the deputy Prime Minister of Namibia, the Minister for the public service from Kenya, the Minister from Gambia, and a few others.

In terms of the issues that have come up, what is absent is us having a common research reservoir where we can exchange experiences, because there are challenges that all of us may face either around capacity-building, human resource development, or even just on recruitment of staff. We have experiences to share regarding these matters. Instead of people going to look at the North for answers, they can find that within the continent.

Chairperson, in response to this issue, one would say that it is something that we have identified but haven’t done sufficient work to establish.

Ms A N T MCHUNU: Chairperson, this is the last one. If there are voluntary NGOs here, for instance ministers of religion who are referred to perhaps as ministers’ fraternities, who are prepared to go and help in any part of Africa, but then do not have the financial means, would the department be in a position to assist them with finances to go and help there? They wouldn’t be working for pay, but just as volunteers.

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, I think that that is the matter that we should place before the door of the Department of Foreign Affairs. We have not really involved NGOs in the work and training that we have engaged in on the continent. As I said, we have collaborated with Unisa in a specific area.

No, we have not done that type of work. We also don’t have resources in our budget to be able to cover costs, specifically. The instance where we have seen a large collaboration that has involved NGOs is through election observer missions. I think you are aware that in the most recent elections in the DRC we have really seen South Africans taking up the responsibility of going to monitor those elections. We have seen people across society, from religious sector to all other sectors, including Members of Parliament, getting involved.