THURSDAY, 2 NOVEMBER 2006

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          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

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The Council met at 14:02.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, as you are aware, we have questions to the Deputy President today. The first question put by the hon … [Interjections.] Yes, Chief Whip!

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: My apologies, Chairperson. I’m aware that we have an arrangement to the effect that during plenaries aimed at dealing with questions we don’t rise on motions. However, we have these two important motions relating to bereavement and condolences. I plead for your indulgence that we may read them.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, I agree. But I must also be notified before I take the Chair.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: My humble apologies again, Chairperson. In our hectic schedule, I just missed informing you about that one.

                        MOTION OF CONDOLENCE


                (The late former President P W Botha)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council –

 1) notes -


     (a)      the passing away of former President Pieter Willem Botha
         on Tuesday, 31 October 2006; and


     (b)      that from 1948 to 1989, before the advent of democracy in
         South Africa, former President Botha served as a member of
         Parliament, Minister, Prime Minister and State President, and
         that during his term as State President preliminary
         discussions were held, paving the way to the end of whites-
         only rule; and


 2) resolves to extend its sympathy and condolences to the wife, family
    and friends of former President Botha who have lost a husband,
    father and grandfather and wish them strength during this time of
    difficulty.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                        MOTION OF CONDOLENCE


                       (The late Mr B Kolweni)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council –

 1) notes -


    (a)      the departure of the brother of the Hon Mr Z S Kolweni, Mr
         Bongani Kolweni, on Thursday, 26 October 2006; and


    (b)      that Bongani Kolweni will be laid to rest on 11 November
         2006 at Libode in the Eastern Cape; and


 2) resolves to extend its heartfelt sympathy and condolences to the
    Kolweni family, friends and colleagues and wish them solace and
    strength during this time of difficulty.

May God bless them. Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY

                   SOCIAL SERVICES AND GOVERNANCE

                              Cluster 2

Questions to the Deputy President of the Republic:

     Re-establishment of interministerial committee on HIV/Aids

1. Ms J F Terblanche asked the Deputy President:

   (1) With regard to the announcement on 7 September 2006 that the inter-ministerial committee on HIV/Aids was to be re-established under her leadership, (a) what failures experienced in the implementation of the national HIV/Aids plan was this announcement designed to counteract and (b) what responsibilities has the committee taken over from the Minister of Health in order to address these failures;

   (2) whether the committee has met since the announcement was made; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, (a) on what dates and (b) what decisions arose out of those meetings? C272E The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, hon members, in September 2006, Cabinet decided to revive the interministerial committee to strengthen the implementation of the HIV and Aids programme, improve co-ordination and communication, and to monitor implementation. These are the aims behind the Cabinet’s decision to revive the IMC, and not to counteract failures experienced in the implementation of the national HIV and Aids plan.

The national HIV and Aids plan has not failed. Progress in its implementation is reported regularly through, among other means, the social sector programme of action that is posted on government’s website.

The decision to revive the IMC was informed by government’s recognition and acknowledgement that the HIV and Aids challenge is not only a health sector issue but one that affects society as a whole. This necessarily requires a multisectoral and multi-stakeholder approach. In this regard, the Minister and the Department of Health remain the key role-player and leader in the fight against HIV and Aids. Simultaneously, we acknowledge and welcome constructive and critical contributions from other stakeholders who continue to make important contributions in this regard.

Before and after Cabinet’s decision to revive the IMC, several activities have been undertaken which, we believe, will have an important impact in carrying forward the work on HIV and Aids. These activities include the development of the new – now in draft form – national strategic plan on HIV and Aids. It is being finalised now so that, by 1 December, which is World Aids Day, we will have a complete version.

In terms of the review of the SA National Aids Council, again the stakeholders have agreed on the proposed restructured Sanac. By 1 December, on World Aids Day again, we hope to be able to launch and unveil to the public these new institutions.

Regarding the meetings between the IMC and civil society organisations, in particular those organisations of people who are living with Aids, I have been convening meetings with these civil society representatives in order to make sure that we are able to work better with them, but also to ensure that they are able to work better among themselves. The formation of task teams on chronic illnesses, food and social security, and stakeholder consultation are some of the activities that we have intensified.

Following the IMC of 17 September 2006, at which a proposal was made to review Sanac, Cabinet has since endorsed the following structure, which is the first high-level, multisectoral leadership structure. Membership and representatives of Sanac will be constituted by leadership of the following sectors, chaired by the Deputy President, and two additional senior members for each sector that is represented. Government will be represented, business will be represented, as will labour, the religious sector, civil society broadly, people living with HIV and Aids, the traditional leader sector, traditional healers, youth, academics and professionals, as well as the higher education sector. Women will also be represented in this structure. At the last consultation there was also a proposal that the media be represented in this structure.

It has been proposed with regard to the second level of this new Sanac that various sectors of the economy establish structures for the co-ordination of the intervention with these sectors. In this regard, government departments within these sectors should lead those sectors and be part of the co-ordinating committee. In other words, in those areas where the prevalence of the disease is high, there will be a working group which will bring in people beyond those that are directly represented in Sanac, so that they are able to work in a programmatic fashion.

At the third level we will have a programme committee. This programme committee of Sanac will be responsible for making sure that there is a firm platform for operational collaboration at the level of implementing programmes.

There is also a proposal that we take away the Country Coordinating Mechanism, otherwise known as the CCM, of the Global Fund to Fight Aids, Tuberculosis and Malaria, out of Sanac so that it is a stand-alone structure. As we speak, the stakeholders are in consultation to finalise the structure, which has been largely approved and therefore will be ready for the launch on 1 December.

We have also instituted a co-ordinating mechanism between the spokespersons of all the affected stakeholders – government spokespersons, spokespersons of nongovernmental organisations, spokespersons of the different institutions that are active – so that together they can come up with a simplified and coherent message that we should be able to give out to our people together on a regular basis.

We have also agreed that on 1 December, in Mpumalanga – I hope to see you there, hon members – we will have the mother of all World Aids Day events, where we will demonstrate the strength and unity amongst all of the stakeholders in South Africa.

Hon members, you will have to be very proud of the way in which South Africans have been able to turn what, at some point, some people were trying to turn into a major crisis. It has given us strength, and we are working very well together, with the support of the Minister, who is now not very well. Thank you. [Applause.]

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: Thank you, Chairperson. Deputy President, firstly, thank you very much for the very comprehensive answer. Is it possible to have it in writing, or a copy of it? And secondly, what specific steps will you take to ensure that the roll-out of antiretrovirals will be expedited?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, the reason we will also have the second tier is that we want to improve co-ordination. So there will be warm bodies and people also in the Sanac secretariat whose role will just be monitoring and evaluation. We will increase the visits to sites in support of and co- ordinated by the Department of Health, and therefore it will mean more time and better co-ordination amongst ourselves.

Mr A WATSON: Thank you, Chair. Hon Deputy President, I am told by people in the medical field that one of the problems with treatment of patients suffering from this virus is that there are various steps in treatment. When the first treatment is applied, people tend to get better and then suddenly think they are OK and stop taking the treatment, which is the wrong thing to do, because some time later, they get sicker than they ever were. Then a secondary medicine is introduced, and again the same thing happens, and by the time the third step in treatment takes place, it is virtually too late.

So it seems to me that apart from the treatment there is also a lot of education that needs to be done. It is like when we take antibiotics: when you feel better, you stop drinking them. So there is a lot of education to be done about the way patients suffering from this virus should take the medicines on a regular, virtually religious basis. What is being done to educate our people in this regard?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, hon member, thank you very much for supporting the perspective that the Minister of Health and the President have taken all along with regard to the importance of education so that people do not default. Again, as I have indicated, we are going to have this programme and an enhanced secretariat. These are some of the things we would like to do. We would like to mobilise more people. That is why 1 December is important – because it is human resource-intensive. We would like to mobilise many people whom we could deploy to work in this regard.

You will know, hon member, that even with regard to the work that we do in the Expanded Public Works Programme, and now even as the National Youth Service, we intend to train a lot of people who are caregivers, whose main role will be to educate, so that people can cope better with the disease and they can understand the consequences of defaulting, which are not always clear, even to highly educated persons such as yourself, as in the case of antibiotics that you talk about.

Mr S SHICEKA: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Deputy President, we appreciate the impetus that has been added to the campaign to fight the scourge of HIV and Aids in our country. Our country is beginning to speak with one voice on these issues. The question is: Is there any mobilisation to enable traditional healers to contribute in the interim with their herbs in reversing the viral loads and ensuring that the immune system is boosted? At the same time, what about finding a long-lasting cure? We see that the West is trying to find a cure in terms of its medicines, but are our traditional people being supported in terms of being given resources to conduct research and so on? Perhaps the cure might even come from Africa. Are they involved in that, Deputy President?

Linked to that is the issue of traditional leaders. I am happy that they are part of the structure. Are they developing programmes to mobilise communities in rural areas so that this scourge can be reversed and the number of infections decline, so that we are able to overcome this situation? Those are the questions that I wanted to touch on.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, may I remind you that you have two minutes for follow-up questions, in case you have forgotten the Rules?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, yes, hon member, traditional healers and traditional authorities are part of the structure, so that we are able constantly to engage with one another. We must understand their contribution and they must understand the contribution of others, and they must collaborate with others. The department actually has a unit that deals with and services this constituency.

I am not aware of the research and development that is being done by traditional healers, but I will let the department know. Maybe there could be a role for them in that regard as well. I suppose monitoring is a degree of research, because they have to monitor the consequences of their actions or the successes they are having with the herbs they use.

The mobilisation of communities under traditional authority, yes, that has been raised by them, because they are also part of this new Sanac. How we are going to enhance that mobilisation is by also having a provincial tier of Sanac, structured in the same way as the national tier, and a local level. In that way, through the traditional houses, there will be off-shoot programmes that will reach out to the constituencies. I thank you.

  Scaling down of railway activities at Emthanjeni Municipality, De


                                 Aar

1. Mr M A Sulliman asked the Deputy President:

   (1) Whether, in view of her recent imbizo held in Emthanjeni municipality in De Aar where the scaling-down of activities at the railway station was of great concern, any programmes are in place to get the station fully operational; if not, why not; if so,

   (2) whether it is a long-term or short-term strategy? C284E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, even though the question on the memorandum was not that clear, I will attempt to answer it, because the fact is that it is not that there are no activities in De Aar. There are activities because government has plans to revitalise the De Aar railway.

The decline in the economies of most towns in Piekenierskloof district municipalities can be attributed, to a large extent, to Spoornet’s decision during the 1990s to cut down on its operations. This decision resulted in a lot of job losses for communities that largely depended on the railway operation for their existence.

The town which was mostly affected in the region is De Aar, because of economic activities that were dependent on Spoornet’s operations. The provincial executive council of the Northern Cape province took a decision during its media lekgotla that the department of transport, roads and public works would embark on a revitalisation process, so as to ensure that existing infrastructure and rolling stock could be used more optimally to assist communities in the affected towns.

This position was further endorsed during the time when I was there during my visits. In fact, the national Department of Transport is supportive of this move. The department of transport, roads and public works in the province therefore has been tasked to lead this process in conjunction with the other departments in the economic cluster of the province. Thank you.

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Chairperson, I want to say thank you to Deputy President for that response. It is very useful and I would like to have a written copy of the response.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The Hansard also keeps the records. You can also access that information from Hansard.

Integrated monitoring and evaluation to ensure compliance by state organs in mainstreaming women into the economy

1. Mr T S Setona asked the Deputy President:

   Whether any integrated monitoring and evaluation mechanism is in place to ensure compliance by all state organs in the fulfilment of the objective of mainstreaming women into the economy; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?

                C287E
   

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chair, the answer is that government is committed to ensuring compliance by all state organs in the objective of mainstreaming women in the economy. We also understand that to ensure the gender impact of service delivery, we have to have a specific set of gender indicators as part of the monitoring and evaluation system. In developing the system, the focus until now has been on fast-tracking the work at departmental and sectoral levels.

A strategic framework on gender and women’s economic empowerment has been drafted and is currently under discussion. It will be submitted to Cabinet in March 2007 by the Department of Trade and Industry. This strategy includes a monitoring and evaluation mechanism in order to increase and facilitate women’s equal, easy and transparent access to financial resources, for instance.

To date, we have monitored the activities by government departments, including Minerals and Energy, Trade and Industry, Public Works, Public Enterprises, Agriculture and Land Affairs, as well as Water Affairs and Forestry, which are the priority sectors where we have felt we have been able to attract women for participation.

Hon members, even though I cannot give all of the figures, you will admit that, since 1994, women in our country have a much better chance. It’s not perfect as yet but there are more women who are targeted specifically for integration into economic activities. For instance, some of the services that we are targeting regarding women include the building of co-operatives and small enterprises across the country as part of Asgisa and the second economy. In that programme, we have already trained more than 200 local economic development officials and municipalities to support these co- operatives of women so that they can perform much better.

We have also trained 400 credit officers across the country in order to ensure that in each co-operative there will also be a savings club so that, as women produce, they also have their own banking system which they run for themselves. Regarding that programme, we are now at a phase where we are looking at productive capacity and bringing to scale the things that women are doing. Soon Cabinet will look at 10 specific products that we are going to set aside for SMMEs. In those, we are also going to identify those that will be particularly crucial for women to engage in.

Concerning the sectors in the Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative for South Africa, there were sectors that we identified because of their capacity, not only to prosper in the second economy, but because they will be able to attract as well as retain women as productive citizens. These include agriculture, arts and crafts, tourism, clothing and textiles, as well as minerals and energy.

Assessment of women’s participation in state-owned enterprises is still recent and has not yet been systematised in accordance with the government monitoring process. However, consensus has been reached to incorporate gender indicators in the government-wide monitoring and evaluation framework. Also, a registry of women-led enterprises is being compiled by the DTI and will include women entrepreneurs involved in all sectors.

We are working with the Department of Public Enterprises to address the major disparities that still exist in the state-owned enterprises between men and women, especially in terms of opportunities in those institutions, though, again, a lot of improvement has been made in that regard.

Regarding the placement programme where we have been sending students or unemployed graduates to different parts of the world, the first batch that we sent out for placement was exclusively women. Even the country that we sent them to complained a little bit by asking, “Are there no men in South Africa?” I said: “They are in the boat; they are coming”.

However, we just wanted to demonstrate and make a point because there is this notion that we cannot find women in the construction environment as engineers, town planners, etc; we cannot find women in finance and ICT. We wanted to demonstrate that, actually, we can get those women. There were 20 opportunities to begin with and we had more than 100 applicants for those opportunities. We have since placed more than 100 women in any case in those opportunities. They are in the United Arab Emirates and India. I must say that those who are in the United Arab Emirates, especially concerning those that are in construction, are being hosted by South African construction companies in those countries. I am very appreciative of that sense of patriotism even when you are far away from home.

Sasol has also done its bit and they have taken some of the women to Qatar to experience working in the field there as well as getting exposure to Germany. Those women are now back in Secunda, where they play a dynamic role, I have been told. As you may know, that is a real man’s world and you have these young women engineers who are making waves. I have been told that they will also be employing them.

We have sent women who have background in finance to KPMG. They are also being trained and are making a contribution to that company. Those who do well will emerge as accountants and some of them will emerge as chartered accountants. There are a number of other opportunities that we are processing. At some point we will have a comprehensive report on how far we have been able to go with this programme. But, of course, we are also going to take men. So guys are welcome in the next batch.

Mr T S SETONA: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Deputy President, I believe that one of your responsibilities is to manage the second economy of our country. Women are critical in that respect and that’s why I posed this question. Deputy President, your response, which I appreciate and I must confess has enhanced my understanding, doesn’t seem to touch on the local sphere of government. The local government sphere is a critical layer of the economic hub of our country, where your procurement at local level is supposed to impact in terms of mainstreaming all disadvantaged sectors of our economy. Women are critical in that respect. Now, I want to have a sense, within the context of the broad framework that you have outlined, of how this is related to the local sphere of governance.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon member, I almost thought you were a fly on the wall in my meeting with the Minister for Local Government, where we were exactly trying to fine-tune our proposals in this regard. The municipalities have benefited in the programme in the initial stage, in the sense that some of the people whom we sent for placement were actually drawn from the municipalities. But, of course, they are professionals.

I have been telling this story to different people, namely that one of the women we have taken and placed in Mumbai is involved in the built environment sector. She is studying the utilisation of space in construction so that we can optimise the rate of return in the space that we use. Those of you who have been to Mumbai will know how congested that city is. Yet you can get around and do everything in that small space. So it’s about understanding how you design your built structures, which are immovable and unchangeable, such that you optimise the building for its lifetime. She is just bubbling over about the things that she is going to do when she goes back to her municipality, where she works in the housing and infrastructure division.

Another young woman, again from a municipality, who is in a transport project, is a co-researcher in looking at planning of transportation in one of the busiest cities of India. She is working there with engineers, quantity surveyors, etc. She hopes to take that information and bring it back, especially as we plan for public transportation in 2010. She plans to share that experience and use it as a dynamic member of the team in her municipality.

Another woman who is in the state of Kerala, is in tourism, and she comes from a municipality in the Eastern Cape. She wrote back to us because we try to make them keep us informed. They are always asking for more pocket money – you know how they are. One of the things that she said had been a wonderful experience for her was to understand how municipalities could develop community-based tourism that is profitable because that state in India specialises in that aspect and – hon Sicelo – in the development of herbs. She is also learning about herbs because Kerala has very strong medicinal initiatives that use local herbs. Of course, all of these people I have mentioned are women. They are in hospitality-related fields and they are all over. But, also, based on my discussion with the Minister for Local Government – and this is something that is work in progress – we would like to see young people and women across the country become involved in a sustainable programme on cleaning up our cities and our towns because, as you know, …

… kwezinye iidolophu kumdaka.[… other towns are dirty.]

Yet, providing cleanliness is a job. So we intend to work together with the Department of Environmental Affairs and the municipalities in order to address that issue and create jobs for women. As you know, women like cleanliness.

Bayaluthanda ucoceko. [They like cleanliness.]

We have also agreed with the Minister that we are going to look at how we can have a sustainable intervention on skills development for youth and women across the municipalities. We are also going to look at how we can promote more and more agriculture across the country. If you were to visit different communities, as we do when we do izimbizo, you would be amazed to see that people are not farming. This happens in areas where people actually have the land and where the conditions are favourable for them to develop and have food security. Regarding that programme on agriculture, I suspect we will recruit a lot of women. We would also like to push for urban agriculture with the Minister of Agriculture, who has called all of us to an Ilima [a joint effort]. She is going around the country.

ULulu uthi masilime. [The Minister of Agriculture and Land Affairs, Lulu, is telling us to start farming.]

Therefore, Minister Mufamadi and I are going to fall behind her in order to make sure that we get as many people as possible involved. I thank you.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, I would like to thank my Deputy President for the educative, enlightening, calculated and well-thought response. A related question is this: Deputy President, is there a mechanism to catch, punish, name and shame those who, up until now, are using our respected women as fronts while they do not actually directly benefit from whatever end products or from whatever is happening?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, in the work that DTI has been doing regarding the codes of good practice that guide the different charters, that is one of the issues that they seek to address. I also look forward to seeing somebody go to jail for fronting, both the “fronter” and the “frontee” [Laughter.]

Ministerial interaction with the Department of Education to clarify roles of colleges and universities in skills expansion

1. Mr B J Tolo asked the Deputy President:

   Whether, since the launch of the Government’s Joint Initiative on Priority Skills Acquisition (Jipsa), she has had any interaction with the Department of Education in order to clarify the roles of colleges and universities in the quest to expand the country’s skills pool; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? C308E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson, the Department of Education is represented in the Joint Initiative for Priority Skills Acquisition’s two- tiered structures, namely the technical working group and the joint task team. In the technical working group, it is represented by officials, and it is represented by the Minister and Deputy Minister in the task team.

As much as they have been part of the processes to deal with the problem of skills shortage and quality at tertiary level, that is in Jipsa, the core mandate for addressing these issues remains that of the Department of Education. Hon member, you must remember that we have also said that, regarding health, the core mandate for health remains with the Department of Health. So, all these interventions that we are making in the Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative for South Africa, or Jipsa, are not about taking over the departments, they are about enhancing the capacity of the departments to deliver.

In terms of education, therefore, the Department of Education’s schools and tertiary education mandate has not been changed because there is Jipsa, but Jipsa is there. I think there is going to be a time when we don’t need Jipsa because these institutions will be doing so well that they will not need anybody to collaborate with them.

This is because of our quest to increase the country’s skills in a relatively short space of time. Jipsa, therefore, has made specific interventions in specific areas where we need to be able to fast-track the output of skills. We want, in relation to engineers, to make sure that we increase the number of students who graduate as engineers per annum, so that we can meet the required demand.

In the further education and training colleges, also, there are opportunities for students to gain some of the technical skills that are important for the built environment. Let me just talk about engineers, artisans and placement programmes which are the areas in which we have made some advances between ourselves, the Department of Labour, the Department of Education, the private sector, labour, academics and so on.

After we had launched Jipsa and we had identified what the critical skills are, a lot of research went into it, and we now have some of the facts that I will share with you. Currently, the country is producing about 1 400 engineering graduates who have either a Bachelor of Engineering or BSc engineering degree. These qualifications enable a candidate engineer to register as a practising engineer. But what happens is that only 50% of those who graduate with these qualifications register as practising engineers. They do an MBA and never come back to engineering. They become black economic empowerment candidates and then go around looking for deals and so on. We would like to bring back this 50% seepage.

Extensive consultations and research have identified that if, at least, we can make sure that every year we have 1 000 that register after graduation, we would steadily build the required amount, especially in the next four years. For the next four years, I am looking for my 1 000-a-year from all the universities put together.

We need to increase also the number of students who are graduating. So the quality of learning and teaching has to be addressed because the yield is not very good. The failure rate is very high. We also need to make sure that we retain those who graduate, that is, those who register and then leave the profession. We need to make sure that we have a retention programme within the profession. That is something that we are working on with employers of engineers as well as the professional association. Among the reasons why they leave is that they become bored when they don’t get promoted and don’t get to do exciting programmes. One of the things that we will be doing in Jipsa is to take middle-level engineers who already have some experience and place them anywhere in the world and in the country, where they will gain exceptional experience and learn best practice, so that they will develop a passion for their work. For instance, we are discussing with friendly companies and institutions in Brazil, where some of them will be able to go and work in the exploration activities for oil and gas, because that country has one of the most advanced projects in that regard. I think any engineering student would love that opportunity.

We are taking them to Russia, in summer and winter, to go and work there. We are going to be taking them to China. Of course, as South Africa gears up for 2010 and attends to the airports and so on, again we will make sure that they get an opportunity to work alongside some of the very senior and the best in the world in these areas.

Again, we will be trying to just give them an appetite for the profession so that they can actually stay there. The Department of Education will therefore provide parts of the budget accordingly, in order to make sure that we are able to do this.

We are challenging different companies to come on board to offer us opportunities. Gautrain has already come on board, because, again, that is phenomenal engineering that is going to be involved there. But we would like to send some engineers to Japan, where there is already a fast train between Tokyo and the other cities. We will be doing this just so that they can get a sense of how this type of train functions or send them to observe the TGV train between France, Geneva and the other cities.

There are those students that do B Tech or national diplomas in universities of technology, who need to graduate after they have been able to access work experience. We are then identifying places to make sure that they don’t drop out because they cannot gain work experience. Our experience so far is that 40% of them never graduate, just because they couldn’t get an opportunity to do an internship programme or a practical programme.

We want to get as many of them as possible, and we are busy combing the country looking for opportunities where we can actually place them. That is what we are doing with engineers. We are looking at reproduction, in other words, the number of passes. We are also looking at retention, those who register and stay; and, of course, we are looking at recruitment of those with unique skills in different parts of the world and those that are retired. Some of them are already in municipalities.

When we recruit people who have unique skills, we have to book them on time when we want them to come to South Africa, because there are fields in engineering where there are only 10 people in the world who can do a particular thing. What we want to do is to send some of our people to where one of the 10 people is right now, to actually go and be mentored and learn. Therefore, when it is our time to build a complicated stadium or whatever, we would have already sent somebody there and they would have come back after having been exposed to a mentor.

In relation to artisans, the country is currently producing about 5 000 artisans per annum. Research indicates that we need to be producing 12 500, so we are 7 500 short per annum. What we therefore need to do is to up the scale of production. We have the means, as a country, to do that – that is the good news – so that by 2010 we would be able to achieve the required number, because that is when many of the projects will be on stream and we will be needing artisans.

Of course, there are different pathways to qualify as an artisan in South Africa. You can qualify as an artisan through a learnership; you can do an apprenticeship at work; you can go to an FET college, and you could be recruited as a trainee into a company where you will be mentored. There are some misarticulations in these pathways. What we are doing now is to consolidate these pathways so that we ensure that the quality in each one of them is the same, so that when somebody graduates from each of these programmes that person will know what we want. We want to incentivise, especially the apprenticeship, where the employers can say, “Dudu, you are very good. I am going to train you and I am going to make sure that I bring you up into being an artisan.” And then Dudu would have to write a certain exam and then, of course, be promoted.

Employers tend not to want to do that because they do not want to pay more. That is why we ended up with the learnership programme because that system used to exist but blacks were not being promoted in most companies. We have not really incentivised that programme well. That programme also does not have enough of the theory content. If you want to be an artisan with prospects to go further, to communicate and to lead, you need the theory component as well. You can become an artisan but not have good communication skills and no prospects to become a master artisan. That is what we need to correct.

Concerning the learnerships, we must make sure that the quality of practical training is good because they tend to be strong on theory and not so strong on the practical. That is what we are doing now. By the end of the year, we will be able to have this in place. We are busy working. The team is working very intensely and next year we are going to be running, especially because we will also be having FETs on board. They will also increase the number of artisans. We have agreed with all the stakeholders on the trades that we need to focus on, not that they are written in stone and will never change. In the FET syllabus, there are 11 programmes that are being added, and in the other artisan programme, which also overlaps with the FET, we have also agreed on the trades.

One thing that is also important is that if you go in to be an artisan, a welder or boilermaker or whatever, we must make sure that you are also able to specialise in that field because there is no one who is called a generic artisan. At the end of the day, you are either a welder, a boilermaker, or an electrician. The standards for electricians must be the same. We must know that when we register them, these are the qualifications that they will have. But, in general, there is general theory around issues of safety and so on, that all artisans need to learn, which is part of the generic syllabus. Thank you.

Mr B J TOLO: Chair, I want to thank the Deputy President for the elaborate answer that she has given us. Given the role that the FETs are going to play in the skills development of our country and also given the situation that we have of the levels of poverty in our country, it would therefore mean that there will be lots of people who might want to go to the FET colleges but might not be able to do so because of financial problems.

Will you, Deputy President, support the Department of Education if it wants to get more money in order to establish a financial assistance scheme, like the ones that we have in universities, for the FET colleges? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It has been done already. You would have known that the Minister of Finance did announce additional support for the FET colleges. One of the things that we are going to do is to subsidise the FETs so much that the cost of entry is going to be very low, and that will enable more students to come in.

We also don’t want 100% scholarships where students or parents don’t have to commit anything, but we are going to make it very, very affordable.

Mr E M SOGONI: Chairperson, I want to thank the Deputy President. The question of the skills gap seems to be growing more and more, perhaps as a result of the growth of the economy. In the past few years, lots of resources have been poured into the sector education and training authorities. Have the Setas been contributing as expected? Has there been any evaluation in terms of their contribution in closing the skills gap?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, not all Setas perform well, and not all fail. It is a mixed bag. We are doing an evaluation right now so that we can improve the quality and the quantity of people who graduate from the Setas. For instance, there is one Seta that I am very proud of, the Seta in information communication technology, which does a very good job. The Seta in mining does a very good job, and the Seta in retail, if I am not mistaken. There are few that have best practice. There is quite a number in which we are intervening, so that we can address the issue of both quality and the number of the people who graduate from those Setas.

Mr S SHICEKA: Chairperson, I want to say to the Deputy President that we appreciate the responses that have been given, which are highly educative and informative. Linked to the follow-up question raised by my colleague, Tolo, around the accessibility and affordability of tertiary institutions, we see in small countries like Lesotho and Botswana that if you have passed matric, the state takes over and looks after you. These are small countries.

South Africa is very big, with an economic base that is wide, but it has become very difficult for people to access universities. Is there any study that has been conducted to look at how they are doing it, compared to us who have this big economic base?

Secondly, is there any study that has been conducted to look at the best practices? There is a university here in the Johannesburg city centre called Cida. That is where the First Lady of the country, uMam’uZanele, was conferring the degrees in the past few months. That university is very cheap. Has there been any cost benefit analysis to look at how much it costs? Is it a real cost for universities that are charging students in this country, comparatively speaking?

To me, as a layperson, I think our universities are extraordinarily expensive, comparatively speaking, given these issues that I have just raised. Have there been any studies that have been conducted to look at that, so as to ensure that the people who were previously deprived of access to education are able to access it with ease, without any problems? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am not aware of a study like that, hon member, but we are concerned about the cost of university education. We would like to do our best to bring down the costs. But, of course, Cida is able to offer such affordable rates because the private sector has invested a lot, which they don’t do in other universities in the country.

I agree with you that there is room to manage the costs in our universities much better than is the case, as well as the quality and the output. Of course, if you talk to university principals, they will tell you ukuthi sibancishi’mali [that we don’t give them money].

That is why I think an objective study is important so that we can all read from the same page. I have been, for instance, impressed by the cost of higher education in a country like India, which is why they have been able to produce so many skilled people. We are concerned about the situation but I don’t think that we have done a scientific study. I am not aware of it, and I will take that point as a suggestion.

Dr F J VAN HEERDEN: I apologise, Chairperson.

Madam Deputy President, I listened with attention to your laudable explanation of what the government intends to do, and also the retention programme. It is well known that many people have left South Africa with many varied skills and a lot of experience. The follow-up question is: What does the government intend to do to stop the exodus of trained people and to bring back those who have already exited or left the country?

I am a bit concerned about this. There is a lot of merit in sending people overseas to be trained and gain experience there, but will the retention programme provide for those people to definitely come back and apply the experience that they got abroad here in South Africa as well? What does the government intend to do to bring those people back and to stop the exodus? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, for those that are not in South Africa, we tell them about opportunities in South Africa. It is their call. I think that once we bring ourselves into a situation where we are begging people to come to South Africa, then they make unrealistic demands on us. In the end, South Africa’s skills problem will be solved by those people who make a choice to live in South Africa and make South Africa better.

We do not want to go out of our way to incentivise people who decided to leave South Africa at the expense of those who have decided to stay and make the country better. But, as long as people are citizens of South Africa, they are welcome. We encourage them; we keep them informed and the embassies do so. Therefore they have a way of knowing where their skills should be.

We are wary of having a dedicated programme that is better than what we are doing for people who are here. Of course, when we have a unique skill that we want, the people who are recruiting will make an offer to those people but they must compete for a job like anybody else. Regarding the people who go overseas, there is a definite obligation on them to come back and to apply the skills here.

Retention has to be the responsibility of the employers. That is part of what we are engaging the employers on - the importance of each employer who employs people with scarce skills to make sure that they have a retention programme so that it is not easy for people to choose to leave. They must have something called job satisfaction, so that they can stay in the workplace that they are in and continue to render a service.

Just so that I am not misinterpreted, we are not against people returning to South Africa. But we want to do that in such a way that we do not put ourselves in a situation where we are seen to favour certain people, because people do complain about that. We want people to know about what’s happening in their country, that they are welcome to come back and the opportunities are there. But the decision has to be left to them, because they have to make the commitment about being loyal to this country. That is not a decision we can make for them. Thank you. [Applause.]

The Council adjourned at 14:55. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS



                     WEDNESDAY, 1 NOVEMBER 2006

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Council of Provinces

The Chairperson

1. Membership of Committees

 (a)    The following changes have been made to Select Committees, viz:

    Economic and Foreign Affairs
    Appointed: Mchunu, Ms A
    Labour and Public Enterprises
    Appointed: Mchunu, Ms A



                      THURSDAY, 2 NOVEMBER 2006

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Assent by President in respect of Bills

   (1) Older Persons Bill [B 68F – 2003] – Act No 13 of 2006 (assented to and signed by President on 29 October 2006).

2. Introduction of Bills

(1) The Minister of Finance

  (a)   Revenue Laws Amendment Bill [B 33 – 2006] (National Assembly –
       proposed sec 77)

   (b)  Revenue Laws Second Amendment Bill [B 34 – 2006] (National
       Assembly – proposed sec 75) [Explanatory summary of Bill and
       prior notice of its introduction published in Government Gazette
       No 29340 of 31 October 2006.]
   Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on Finance of
   the National Assembly, as well as referral to the Joint Tagging
   Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint Rule 160.


   In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of the
   Bills may be submitted to the JTM within three parliamentary working
   days.

1. Draft Bills submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159

(1) Revenue Laws Second Amendment Bill, 2006, submitted by the Minister of Finance.

National Council of Provinces

The Chairperson

1. Message from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces in respect of Bills passed by Assembly and transmitted to Council

   (1) Bills passed by National Assembly and transmitted for concurrence on 2 November 2006:

    (a)   South African Red Cross Society and Legal Protection of
          Certain Emblems [B 25 – 2006] (National Assembly – sec 75).
   
    (b)   Immigration Amendment Bill [B 28 – 2006] (National
    Assembly – sec 75).
          The Bills have been referred to the Select Committee on
          Social Services of the National Council of Provinces.
   

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Finance

   (a) Explanatory Memorandum on the Revenue Laws Amendment Bill, 2006 [B33 – 2006] (WP 2 – 2006).

2. The Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry

   (a) Agreement between the Republic of Botswana, the Republic of Mozambique, the Republic of South Africa and the Republic of Zimbabwe, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.

   b) Explanatory Memorandum to the Agreement.

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Council of Provinces

1. Report of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs on Prohibition of Mercenary Activities and Regulation of Certain Activities in Country of Armed Conflict Bill [B 42B - 2005] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 1 November 2006:

   The Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, having considered the subject of the Prohibition of Mercenary Activities and Regulation of Certain Activities in Country of Armed Conflict Bill [B 42B - 2005] (National Assembly – sec 75), referred to it, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.