WEDNESDAY, 28 FEBRUARY 2007 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 15:01.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT

National Youth Service Volunteer Campaign, the National Youth Service and Jipsa

1. Mr S E Kholwane (ANC) asked the Deputy President:

   (1) (a) What is the main purpose of the National Youth Service Volunteer Campaign which was launched on 4 December 2006, (b) what are the key objectives being pursued by this initiative and (c) how does this campaign relate to the mandate of the National Youth Service (NYS);

   (2) whether this campaign will address the question of youth development and training in relation to the objectives of the Joint Initiative on Priority Skills Acquisition (Jipsa); if so, in what way? N247E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, hon members, I would like to start by explaining the difference between the National Youth Service Volunteer Campaign and the National Youth Service. The main difference between the two initiatives is that in the volunteer campaign, we have a short-term intervention which aims to get young people to participate in volunteer programmes during vacations and holidays, for example, and engage in developmental community activities such as crime prevention, peer education, marine and costal management as well as support to vulnerable children. On the contrary the National Youth Service Programme, which is a long-term intervention running between 12 to 18 months, includes accredited technical training, life skills training and supervised community service.

The key objectives of the National Youth Service Volunteer Campaign are to inculcate a civic responsibility culture amongst the youth, in keeping with Asgisa and other objectives of government of creating a caring and a sharing society; to raise awareness and the profile of the National Youth Service programme and to foster co-operation amongst national communities and stakeholders that partner with government departments.

It is our duty, as government, to demonstrate that everyone and all our young people can play a productive role in the development and in caring for most vulnerable people in our society. The volunteer campaign was launched in December 2005 and, therefore, has had an opportunity to impact on a larger number of young people.

We would urge members to encourage young people in their constituencies to make themselves available for the short-term volunteer campaign as well as for the longer-term National Youth Service programme which, for many of the young people who are unemployed, at risk and in need of skills, would be a more life-enhancing experience. Thank you.

Mr S E KHOLWANE: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the Deputy President for a comprehensive response. My question is: How can these young women and men access the programme in general, especially those in deep rural areas? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon member, I have to say I also feel that the promotion and advertising of this programme is not as effective as it should be. On the one hand, we need to make the information available to as many young people as possible so that they know how to access the programme, but we are also conscious that we do not want to over-advertise and be unable to accommodate all of the young people whose interest we would have generated.

In part, we would like to rely on municipalities to engage, to select and to encourage young people to do that and, of course, our GCIS should also be involved. I would take responsibility and admit that there are some improvements that need to be made about advertising and promoting this programme. I would also like to offer information to the members here so that, through your constituency offices, you can also assist us to close the gap. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr M M SWATHE: Madam Speaker, Deputy President, it would be interesting to know how many youth formations were invited to participate in the initiative, and whether the wholly ineffective National Youth Commission has any role to play. Given the fact that the biggest problem amongst the youth is joblessness, could you please advise the House on the role the National Youth Service Volunteer Campaign will play in helping to encourage the acquisition of new skills? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I would start by defending the National Youth Commission. It is not an ineffective institution. [Interjections.] Sorry? [Interjections.] OK, you can send a message to Kader, I won’t. I interact with them. I know that the current National Youth Commission, for instance, has been in place for a couple of months and the previous commission had teething problems. And I think one of the things that the new commission has embarked upon is to close the gap in those areas where the previous commission was weak.

There is no blanket answer about the strengths and weaknesses of the National Youth Commission, because in some provinces they are much stronger and in some provinces they are weaker. It is a matter of ensuring that where they are strong, we help them to do better and where they are weak, we strengthen them.

To answer the question, the National Youth Commission is an integral part of developing and implementing these programmes. In fact, in relation to the national volunteer service, there are now almost 30 000 young people that are participating. Most of them have been recruited through the structures of the National Youth Commission in different parts of the country. In those provinces where the National Youth Commission is stronger, it is reflected by the number of young people who have been able to stay in the programme and finish. But there are some provinces where the success is not something I would write to my mother about. Thank you. [Applause.]

Adv Z L MADASA: Sekela-Mongameli obekekileyo, ngaba uyangqina na ukuba iNkonzo yeSizwe yokuXhobisa uLutsha, okanye iNational Youth Service ngesilungu, kunye nenkonzo yobuvolontiya, ngamaphulo amabini abaluleke kakhulu? Ngaphandle kokufundisa ulutsha umsebenzi ukuze lungazibandakanyi kulwaphulo-mthetho, akwabalulekile ekuvuseleleni izimilo ezweni lethu, ukwenzela ukuba ulutsha luzingce ngelizwe lalo. Ngaba uyakungqina na oko, Sekela-Mongameli?

USEKELA-MONGAMELI: Somlomo obekekileyo nelungu elibekekileyo elibuze umbuzo, ndiyangqina ukuba eli phulo libaluleke gqitha. Mandiphinde nditsho ukuba ukuqoqosha izimilo zolutsha yeyona nto ibalulekileyo ekufanele ukuba siyenze njengamalungu ePalamente nanjengabantu abasele bebadala.

Kungoko ke, ngokubhekisele kwiNkonzo yeSizwe yokuXhobisa uLutsha, singathanda ukucebisa abantwana ukuba bahlale kule nkonzo ixes ha eliziinyanga ukugqitha enyakeni kuba singathanda ukubabona betshintshile nkqu nendlela le yokuhamba xa bephuma kulo. Nikhe nibabone xa behamba bekekele, le nto elokishini yam kwakusithiwa kukubhampa? Sifuna ukuba xa bephuma kweli phulo bangabhampi koko bahambe kakuhle ngendlela enesimilo. Enkosi. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[Adv Z L MADASA: Hon Deputy President, do you agree that both the National Youth Service programme and the National Youth Service Volunteer Campaign are important? In addition to training youth in job-related skills in order to help them avoid being involved in criminal activities, these campaigns play a critical role in moral regeneration that would in turn motivate them so that they could be proud of their country.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker and the hon member who has asked the question, I agree that this campaign is important. Let me reiterate that as Members of Parliament and the elders, we need to inculcate in our youth a sense of moral regeneration as one of the most important things.

It is for that reason that we, in the National Youth Commission, would like to advise our children to remain in this church for a period of about a year; starting from this month. Have you seen them waddling? In my township we used to refer to this kind of walk as “bumping”. We want to see them moving and walking decently after training. Thank you. [Applause.]]

Mr V B NDLOVU: Somlomo, mhlonishwa Phini likaMongameli, lubasiza kuphi lolo hlelo laba abancane ekucosheni imisebenzi uma sebephuma lapho? [Madam Speaker, hon Deputy President, how does this programme help the youth to get employment after leaving it?]

USEKELA-MONGAMELI: Somlomo, abanye babantu abasele beqalile ukungena kwiNkonzo yeSizwe yokuXhobisa uLutsha bathi bengekayigqibi babe sele bebonwa ngabaqeshi, baze abo baqeshi babaqeshe. Siyazama ukugxininisa kubo ukuba xa ubani eziphethe kakuhle, waqhuba kakuhle, uza kukhawuleza ukufumana umsebenzi. Loo nto inceda ekubeni bafumaneke abasebenzi abafanelekileyo. Kanti enye into entle kukuba siyakwazi ukubabona abanezakhono, ekubonakalayo ukuba kufuneka babuyele esikolweni. Bathi xa bephuma kweli phulo sibe sesibazamela indlela yokuba babuyele esikolweni baye kuqhubela phambili imfundo yabo.

Njengokuba ngoku sele kukho iikholeji zokufundela imisebenzi, okanye ii-FET college ngesilungu, singathanda ukuba abo bafundela umsebenzi wezandla bathi xa bephuma apho baye kungena kwinkqubo yokufundela umsebenzi kwezi kholeji.

Okwesithathu, singathanda ukuba kubekho inkqubo abaphumela kuyo. Besingekakwazi ke ukuwucwangcisa kakuhle lo mba ngoba besisalindele uMphathiswa wezeziMali ukuze sibone ukuba usipha malini khon’ ukuze sibe nokuseka inkqubo eza kubanika izakhono ukuze xa bephuma kweli phulo sikwazi ukubasebenzisa.

Ngoku sicela ukuba sibambisane nemibutho engekho phantsi kukarhulumente, iinkampani kwanamasebe ukuze xa ifuna abantu abanezakhono ezithile baze kukhangela kwaba bantwana. Abanye babo sifuna ukuba babe ngoosomashishini abazimeleyo. Sifuna ukuba bathi xa bephuma kweli phulo aba bakhayo, abe umntu enebhokisi yakhe yokugcina izixhobo zokusebenza anokuyisebenzisa ukuya kufuna umsebenzi.

Kwakhona, sifuna ukusebenzisa eli phulo lokuba urhulumente abonelele ngesixa-mali esithile ukukhawulelana nomvuzo wabo baqalayo ukusebenza athethe ngalo uMongameli ukunceda abanye babantu abatsha ngoba kuya kuba lula ukubafumana nokubamba udliwanondlebe nabo. Enkosi. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, some of the people who have already started with the National Youth Service programme are poached by prospective employers before completing their training. We are trying to highlight to them that if they conduct themselves accordingly and perform well they will get a job easily. That helps in getting suitable candidates. We can also easily identify people with potential who would need to go for further training. After training we ensure that they go for further training.

Now that there are also FET colleges, we would like to encourage those who are being trained in handicraft to go and study further at these colleges.

Thirdly, we would also like to put in place development programmes that would employ them as soon as they have completed their training. We have not been able to do proper planning, as we have been waiting on the Minister of Finance for our budget allocation that would enable us to set up a programme that would provide skills to them so that after they have been trained we could employ them.

Therefore, we request that we work in partnership with non-governmental organisations, companies and departments so that when they need people with certain skills, they may select from them. We would like some of them to be set up in their own companies. We want to empower those who train in building and construction so much so that on completion of their training, each one of them has a complete tool box with which they could market themselves.

Furthermore, we would like to follow up on the President’s proposal that the government should consider providing financial assistance to meet the financial needs and augment the salaries of some of the newly employed youth, because it would be easy to attract them for interviews. Thank you.]

   High crime rate a constraint for investment and economic growth

1. Dr S M van Dyk (DA) asked the Deputy President:

   Whether, in light of the World Bank’s recent investment climate survey findings as well as that of Grant Thornton regarding the high crime rate as a constraint for further investment and growth (details furnished), she will add crime as the seventh binding constraint to economic growth under the Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative for South Africa (Asgisa); if not, why not; if so, what measures will be implemented in order to deal with this constraint? N243E The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker and hon members, the answer to the question is: Crime is one of the government’s major focus areas. Its importance is not just in reference to Asgisa, but it is an overarching challenge that the government is focussed on, and therefore we do not have to regard it and to include it as necessarily one of the bounding constrains. The fight against crime has to intensify whether there is Asgisa or not.

As already announced, some of the measures that are to be instituted in this regard will include the increase of the police officers, as was announced by the President; the augmentation of the ICT-based forensic science laboratory for processing DNA by the establishment of another facility in the Western Cape; and the capacity of the intelligence division of the police which is being increased, both in terms of the number of officers and in terms of enabling technical infrastructure. The cluster intends to sustain measures intended to arrest and prosecute repeat offenders, particularly those responsible for serious and violent crimes.

Similarly, the operations to prevent crime in the places and at times when it mostly occurs will be sustained. In this regard, the government particularly wants to massively reduce house burglaries. It is in this particular time that terror visits most people, the sense of insecurity that people feel in their homes. These are the few areas that I am mentioning in which we intend to intensify crime prevention. Of course, the list of our interventions is longer. Thank you.

Dr S M VAN DYK: Madam Speaker, this is Asgisa and economic development. The Deputy President does not recognise crime as a barrier to economic development. So, the hon Deputy President, therefore, does not agree that crime is a barrier to Asgisa, despite the fact that South Africa’s murder rate is eight times higher that the world’s average.

Does this mean that the government accepts that 18 000 murders per annum is reasonable, despite the fact that many of those murdered were highly skilled people contributing to our economy? Is the hon Deputy President not in agreement that the unacceptably high crime rate plays a role in the brain drain, taking into account the shortage of skill in South Africa, and that crime also limits foreign investments and foreign capital that contribute to South Africa’s economic development?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, I will not dignify this with an answer. I have said that the crime prevention measures are overarching. Whether there was Asgisa or not, we would have to do this job, because it is one of the basic services that we have to provide to our citizens. So, we do not have to repeat in Asgisa something that we have to do and are doing anyway. We just need to do it better. [Applause.] Mnu V B NDLOVU: Somlomo, mhlonishwa Phini likaMongameli, uma kuthiwa ukufakwa kwezimboni kungase kuncishiswe ngukuthi mhlawumbe ubugebengu bandile ezweni, ngabe umhlonishwa uyakuvuma yini lokho ngoba mina bengicabanga ukuthi phela ukusebenza kwezokuphepha kufanele ngabe kuyithinta yonke iMinyango? Manje indlela ababuza ngayo laba bafowethu, kuzwakala sengathi umhlonishwa uyakuvuma ukuthi ubugebengu lobu obenziwayo ezweni bukhulile. Uma ekuvuma ethi bukhulile, lokho akuzukuyithinta yini imicabango yalaba abafuna ukufaka izimboni kuleli zwe? Uma ngabe kuvunywa uwena mhlonishwa, ngeke kusuke kubakhinyabeze yini na?

IPHINI LIKAMONGAMELI: Konje oNdlovu bangoGatsheni, oBoya benyathi?

AMALUNGU AHLONIPHEKILE: Yebo!

IPHINI LIKAMONGAMELI: Ngiyezwa. Angizange ngisho ukuthi ngiyazivuna izigebengu. UNgqongqoshe ongasekho, uMnu Tshwete, wayevame ukuthi, “Izigebengu zizoxakana nathi njengoba ithambo lixakana nenja.” Nayo-ke nje into esifuna ukulwa nayo. Ukuthi le nto ifakwa ku-Asgisa noma uyifaka kwi- JCPS, lokho sekuyimininingwane. Into ebalulekile ukuthi makuliwe nobugebengu.

Maqondana nombuzo othi ubugebengu bunayo yini indlela yokunciphisa ukutshalwa kwezimali, yizo zonke izinto lezo esiziqaphile. Noma ngabe bekungenzeki lokho, kubalulekile ukuthi ubugebengu makuliwe nabo ngqo. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.) [Mr V B NDLOVU: Chairperson, hon Deputy President, when there is talk that investments might decrease owing to the crime level which is too high, does the hon Deputy President agree with that, because personally, I think that the question of safety should concern all departments? And the way these brothers ask questions; it sounds like the Deputy President admits that crime has increased in this country. If the Deputy President admits that crime is on the increase, is that not going to be a matter of concern to those who want to invest in this country? If you, the hon Deputy President, admit this, is that not going to scare investors?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: By the way, the Ndlovus are also known as Gatsheni, Boya benyathi?

HON MEMBERS: Yes!

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I understand. I have never said that I am partial towards criminals. The late Minister, Mr Tshwete, used to say: ”The criminals will fight us like a dog fighting for its bone because we give them such a hard time.” And that is the thing that we want to fight against. Whether it is Asgisa or JCPS, is just a detail. The most important thing is to fight crime.

With regard to whether crime has an impact on decreasing investments, those are the things that we are looking at. Even if that was not happening, it is still important to fight crime head-on. [Applause.]]

Nksz M M SOTYU: Ndiyabulela Sekela Mongameli, uchan’ucwethe Mamlambo njengokuba sele ubonisile ukubaluleka kwentsebenziswano phakathi koluntu ngokubanzikunye norhulumente ngokulwisana nobundlobongela, uhambe emazwini ebethethwa nguMongameli kwintetho yakhe yovulo lwePalamente ebonisa ukubaluleka kodibana kwethu sisilwa nobu bundlobongela. Ngoko ke andizi kubuza mbuzo kuwe. Ndiza kuthi nje kuwe, mazenethole! (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[Mrs M M SOTYU: I thank you, Deputy President, you have hit the nail on the right place, Mrs Mlambo. You have shown us why there should be co-operation between communities and the government in crime prevention. This is exactly what the President said in his speech during the opening of Parliament. I am, therefore, not going to ask you any question other than to say, well done!]

The SPEAKER: Phini likaMongameli, hhayi-ke useyivalile. [Well, Deputy President, there you are, she has closed it.]

             Access to water, sanitation and electricity

1. Mr A M Mpontshane (IFP) asked the Deputy President:

   Whether the Government has any programmes in place to meet its targets regarding access to water, sanitation and electricity?

                N246E
   

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Deputy Speaker, the answer to this question is as follows: Government has set the following targets with regard to the attainment of universal access to the basic services of water, sanitation and electricity – for the eradication of the bucket system the deadline is the end of 2007, for access to basic potable, clean water it is the end of 2008, for access to basic, decent sanitation it is the end of 2010, and for access to basic electricity it is the end of 2012.

Cabinet received a full report at the Cabinet lekgotla last month, and discussed the mechanisms put in place in order to meet these targets. In the limited time allowed for me to answer these questions, let me just detail some of the steps we are following to accelerate the provision of these basic services and to meet the said targets.

Firstly, we have increased our transfer of funds to the local sphere of government where these services are provided. Transfers to local government have grown by 19% per year in the current 2007-08 Medium-Term Expenditure Framework.

As hon members will recall, the Minister of Finance announced in his Budget last week that the local government equitable share will receive a further R5 billion for the delivery of free basic services, which has now reached an average of about 80% of households. The municipal infrastructure grant receives R400 million more for a final push to eradicate the bucket system; a further R600 million for the electrification programme; R1,4 billion for bulk water and sanitation infrastructure; and R950 million to deliver water and electricity to schools and clinics. The total infrastructure transfers to municipalities now total R52 billion over the next three years.

Secondly, in line with Project Consolidate, we are intensifying our efforts to ensure that the expenditure level of the municipal infrastructure grant improves significantly. The introduction of project and programme management practices will enable a clear flow of information which will ensure alignment of planning, funding and budget prioritisation.

We are also endeavouring to provide more support to municipalities with critical capacity constraints and are particularly targeting municipalities with limited or no capacity; rural municipalities with backlogs exceeding 60% of the population; those rural municipalities which are under Project Consolidate; and rural municipalities that are spending less than 50% of the municipal infrastructure grant allocation. A major priority is schools and clinics that do not have basic services. The government, through the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry, will assist struggling provinces and act as an implementing agent to provide infrastructure to schools and clinics. Water boards and NGOs will be utilised. Existing capacity within the provinces will be enhanced and allocations for this programme will be ring-fenced.

Fourthly, we are endeavouring to ensure that more engineers are deployed to these programmes by the Department of Provincial and Local Government, and the Development Bank of Southern Africa. Specifically, we are aiming at recruiting more engineers and targeting those that are retired in order to solicit their expertise, and in some cases solicit the expertise of engineers in our existing organs such as the Industrial Development Corporation and the Development Bank of Southern Africa. Even the engineers that are here in Parliament must go back and practise. We want engineers turned bankers to go back to their profession, people such as the Minister of Finance.

Lastly, the government, through the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry, will be working more closely with identified municipalities to ensure speedier implementation of water and sanitation projects. This will include hands-on implementation of programmes and projects of other government departments such as Water Affairs, and Provincial and Local Government. Thank you. Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Somlomo, siyabonga kumhlonishwa iPhini likaMongameli. [Madam Speaker, we thank the hon Deputy President.]

Indeed, it is good that the government has these comprehensive programmes, plans and targets that it wants to meet in providing water, electricity and sanitation.

But one has to ask questions. If one looks at what is happening in the rural areas, women, of course, and some men, still have to travel many kilometres from distributing centres because piped water does not go to their households. They still stand in these long queues. Does the government envisage bringing piped water closer to their households?

Secondly, we appreciate the fact that the government is doing something about the bucket system. But, of course, in the rural areas there are those who do not have the relative luxury of those buckets; all they have is the bush. Will the government also include those who don’t have this bucket system, who have the bush instead?

Lastly, a specific question to the Deputy President: I come from the area where we have the vast Jozini Dam, but around the area …

The SPEAKER: Hon member, you have exhausted your minute and you are still telling the history of where you come from. You have not yet asked your question. [Laughter.] Mnu A M MPONTSHANE: Bengithi ngizama ukwendlalela, Somlomo.

USOMLOMO: Musa ukwendlala mfowethu, asikho isikhathi sokwendlala. [Uhleko.]

Mnu A M MPONTSHANE: Awungiphe umzuzwana omncane nje … [Ubuwelewele.] Ngicela ukubuza-ke mhlonishwa Phini likaMongameli ukuthi laphayana edamini laseJozini … (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Mr A M MPONTSHANE: I was trying to give a background, Madam Speaker.

The SPEAKER: Stop giving a background, my brother, there is no time for a background.

Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Just give me a second … [Interjections.] May I then ask the hon Deputy President regarding the Jozini Dam …]

… are there any concrete plans to use that dam to supply water to the surrounding communities who have no water at all, as I am speaking to you? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, firstly, regarding places where there is no tap in the house, when we talk about universal access the plan is that people should not have to travel more than 200 metres to access clean, potable water. Even before I get to that, you used to be in the KwaZulu- Natal government: What did you do? [Laughter.] [Applause.] [Interjections.] Madam Speaker, who is on the floor, they or I?

The SPEAKER: The Deputy President is on the floor. Can she answer?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Ndiyabulelagiyabonga. Nenza ntoni ngeJozini Dam? [I thank you. What are you doing about the Jozini Dam?]

Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: May I give an explanation … [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Cha! Iyiphi leyo nto ofuna iqondiswe? Uyakuphendula nje uPhini likaMongameli; – angithi ubumbuze umbuzo? [No! What is it that you want to correct? The Deputy President has answered you. Have you not asked her a question?]

Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Madam Speaker, I would like to explain.

The SPEAKER: Cha, bab’uMpontshane. Ngicela uhlale phansi khona ezokuphendula umhlonishwa uPhini likaMongameli. [No, hon Mpontshane. I am asking you to take your seat so that the hon Deputy President can respond to your question.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, No. I have the explanation. You lost the elections there. That is what happened, because you did not give people water quickly enough. But I am helping you now.

I have answered the part of the question on what we are defining as universal access. In addition, when we talk about universal access to sanitation by 2008, we are including those communities which do not have sanitation facilities now, so the new households that are being built and the ones which have no sanitation facilities at all will therefore be included in the new figure.

Of course, one of the things we are most anxious about is to make sure that new houses and facilities that are being built have all these basic services. We must not, as we go forward, create a new backlog of inadequate human settlements. In that way, hopefully, we will reduce the backlog significantly. Thank you.

Mr W P DOMAN: Madam Speaker, hon Deputy President, you referred to the important role that local government will have to play in this regard. Now, the sector skills plan findings for local government indicate that 36% to 38% of approved positions in local government are vacant. The highest proportion of these vacant posts is in less skilled positions - elementary and clerical workers. So, the shortage is not attributable to skills scarcity. They also found that at least 20 000 to 30 000 jobs could be created immediately if they would just appoint these people. So, hon Deputy President, I would like to ask you: Does the government have any plans or initiatives to ensure that the local government appoints these people, and can you exert any pressure on an organisation such as the ANC, which has 80% of the executive managers that can do this job?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, hon member, it is our intention to do all we can to try to fill the vacancies as soon as possible, especially at municipal level, starting with the City of Cape Town, if possible. [Interjections.] Everybody wants to come and work in Cape Town. [Interjections.] No! They just want to come and live in Cape Town, not to live under the present government that is governing the City of Cape Town but just to live in Cape Town for its God-given beauty. [Interjections.]

In general, hon members, part of the work that we are doing in the deployment of unemployed graduates is to meet these municipalities where there is a genuine problem in recruiting people. For instance, where we have vacancies for clerks, that work ends up being done by teachers and therefore takes up valuable teaching time. The Minister of Education collaborates with the Minister of Public Works to make sure that when we recruit people for the Extended Public Works Programme, we recruit people who have recorded skills or are trainable and could play a role in providing those administrative services, we will use those people to fill those positions. We will train them so that they become fully qualified clerks. In fact, hon member, the Minister for the Public Service and Administration and I have this as one of our key activities to embark upon, at least in the first half of the year. I think the challenge is in the public sector. But we would also like the private sector to be a bit more aggressive about how they recruit so as to create these many instant jobs you and I are looking for.

Mr J D ARENDSE: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Deputy President whether the programme to eradicate the bucket system is flexible enough to incorporate formal areas that do not use the bucket system, and also do not use any type of formal sanitation system but, instead, make use of a system commonly known as the long-drop pit latrine, which is dug by the people themselves? I am speaking about areas where a house is built with brick and mortar, which is obviously a formal house, but where people still dig their own latrine in the yard. They don’t use the bucket system so at the moment they don’t qualify for assistance. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, it is not in the target we have for universal access by 2008, but it is included in the improvements. And, hon member, it’s not unparliamentary to talk about droppings in Parliament. [Laughter.]

Mrs C DUDLEY: Madam Speaker, I would like to know if the Deputy President is satisfied with the progress in terms of sanitation, water and electricity with regard to schools? Are some provinces perhaps lagging behind in this respect? I say this with a picture in mind of some of the rural Eastern Cape schools I visited. Has the government prioritised these rural schools, and schools in general?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, hon member, regarding those areas where the services are most needed and where the capacity in the province seems most stressed, we are prioritising them for support. But, as you know, with these kinds of services, in the case of schools, it’s either a service or no service at all. We would like to see all the schools as priorities. But, where there is clearly a problem, that the province is going to default because there is no capacity, we try to help those provinces. That is why, in Project Consolidate, we even deploy those experts from stronger municipalities to go there as facilitators for faster implementation.

    Public servant involvement in the Moral Regeneration Movement

1. Ms P R Mashangoane (ANC) asked the Deputy President:

   What steps will the government take to ensure that public servants, in particular those in the main service delivery departments, are involved in the implementation of the key principles of the Moral Regeneration Movement? N248E

Ms P R MASHANGOANE: Thank you, Madam Speaker … [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order! It’s the Deputy President who must respond to the question, hon member.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The hon member is in a hurry to get an answer, Madam Speaker.

Hon members are aware that the Moral Regeneration Movement is a joint initiative between civil society and government at national, provincial and local levels. As far as national government is concerned, some departments are running programmes aimed at strengthening the moral fibre of our society, but also at strengthening themselves within the departments. However, I do believe that much more can be done and more departments can participate in this programme.

Your question, hon member, relates to what government is doing to ensure that its employees, the public servants, are imbued with the principles and values of moral regeneration. I think that this is a crucial question, because if we were succeeding to the extent that we want to succeed in this regard, we would not be talking about corruption or poor service delivery in pockets of our civil society. That is why we, therefore, need to have targeted and dedicated programmes to address these challenges.

We are also aware that, in the Public Service, we have adopted the Batho Pele principles. We speak directly to the issue of morality. The Department of Public Service and Administration has programmes on Batho Pele, which have the potential to strengthen the moral values of public servants, and we expect departments to provide reports on what they are doing or planning to do to instil these values within their departments and amongst their employees. This is also expected to happen within the overall compliance and requirements of Batho Pele. We will be in a position to give more detailed feedback to this House once the Minister for the Public Service and Administration has received progress reports from departments.

Hon members, the most critical intervention that, I would like to argue, needs to be made in strengthening the moral fibre of our society is within families; it is by parents and communities because it is here that we plant the seeds of positive values amongst our young people. The responsibility should not only be shifted to schools, the government and organised civil society. It is particularly families that need to instil moral values, starting from childhood. So, we need parents to be a critical component of the Moral Regeneration Movement.

I’d like to take this opportunity to urge not just parents and families and those who are in care of young people and children, but also the hon members to play a role in advancing moral regeneration in their constituencies and to support the initiatives that are undertaken in their communities by different stakeholders, church groups, youth groups, education and so on, so that we can have a comprehensive approach. [Applause.]

Ms P R MASHANGOANE: Madam Speaker, I was indeed really in a hurry to get a response from the Deputy President. [Laughter.] Thank you, Deputy President, for your comprehensive response. My follow-up question is: Apart from reports from departments, what mechanisms are in place to monitor change in behaviour towards adherence to the principles and objectives of the Moral Regeneration Movement?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, this question is extremely difficult: What mechanisms are in place to monitor change in social behaviour? I must say I have to go and investigate this; I don’t know the answer. [Laughter.] Is it a number of sinners or of those who go to heaven? Of course, the overall decrease in criminal behaviour would be an important indicator.

I would like to ask Minister Pallo Jordan to answer this question on my behalf in the next round of questions. [Applause.]

Mr I F JULIES: Madam Speaker, Deputy President, in the Public Service there is a code of conduct for public servants. When will the government implement the Prevention and Combating of Corrupt Activities Act, No 12 of 2004? For example, when will the government act against Members of Parliament who are involved in the Travelgate scandal? The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, I think Parliament should be able to speak for itself on this matter. So, I think the hon member should direct this question to Parliament.

Mr S N SWART: Madam Speaker, hon Deputy President, arising from your response, the ACDP shares your view that a high standard of ethics and morality is required, particularly in the Public Service, as well as your emphasis on the role that families should play. However, in terms of the Public Service Code as well as the Protected Disclosures Act, public servants are required to report fraud, corruption, nepotism, maladministration and other offences in both state and private sectors. To what degree, hon Deputy President, are the provisions of the Protected Disclosures Act, which protect whistle-blowers, being circulated in the Public Service to make public servants aware of the statutory protection they enjoy so that they can contribute to ethical standards that are being maintained in the Public Service?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon member, I am not aware that the civil servants generally do not know that they are protected and that the mechanisms and the methods used for people to whistle-blow are such that people can actually do that in confidence in order to protect themselves. Those of us who are principals have the responsibility, when we pursue these matters, not to disclose the sources of this information where we think it will endanger people. But more and more we find that public servants actually want to disclose and they want to take the responsibility for having made the disclosure, because I think there is a growing sense that it is a good thing to actually report wrongdoing. But to the extent that in some cases, especially junior officials, may need protection, clearly that is in place. If it is the sense of the member that perhaps people do not know, maybe this is something that we need to look at. But I wasn’t aware that this is a problem.

I also want to go back to the question that I didn’t answer, regarding some of the key indicators to monitor the impact of moral regeneration. I think some of the more formal instruments that we have will include the PMFA, through which we are able to identify problems; and the performance management agreements that people have to sign and against which they have to perform and be evaluated. Corporate governance in general is also but one of the mechanisms that we have to measure that impact.

When we see an increase of people who comply with all these measures, we will know that we are actually having a breakthrough. When we see an increase in incidents, we will know that we are not performing according to our own objectives. However, when you see a decrease of people who default, then, obviously, we are able to make a judgment based on that.

Maybe you will see these as hard instruments. So, we also are concerned about having both the hard instruments and also monitoring the soft issues, because, concerning some of the issues around customer care, not all of the instruments that we have can actually indicate to you whether a person gives a service with a smile, which in some cases can be make or break in the manner in which people are made to feel welcome. So, those are some of the things that we continuously have to fine-tune. These are the things that those who are in the front line of service provision need to actually internalise. When we do orientation and ongoing training for our public servants, these are some of the things that we need to look at. Thank you.

Mnu V B NDLOVU: Somlomo, mhlonishwa Phini likaMongameli, kuye kwenziwe njani ngalaba abanamakhanda alukhuni kodwa futhi bevikelwe yizinyonyana zabo noma mhlawumbe bevikelwe ukuthi banezikhundla ezinkulu – kodwa kube kudingeka ukuthi kubikwe kubona? Kwenziwa njani ngalabo abanamakhanda alukhuni abangafuni ukuyilandela i-moral regeneration?

IPHINI LIKAMONGAMELI: Abanye babo basejele njengoba sikhuluma nje … (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Mr V B NDLOVU: Madam Speaker, hon Deputy President, what is usually done about those who are hard-headed and yet they are protected by their unions and sometimes they are also protected by the high positions that they occupy and yet things must be reported to them? What should be done about those who are hard-headed who do not want to follow the principles of moral regeneration?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Some of them are languishing in jails as we speak …]

… because the application of laws and regulations and the requirements, when it comes to compliance, applies to everybody. If you are a director- general, for instance, you have the same sets of conditions when it comes into aspects of compliance as somebody who is junior and so on. So, I think the important thing is to apply the regulations and the laws without fear and favour.

                         PEACE AND SECURITY


                             (Cluster 1)

MINISTERS:

          Community policing forums in fight against crime

1. Mr M S Moatshe (ANC) asked the Minister of Safety and Security:

   Whether his department is looking at strengthening community policing forums (CPFs) in order to make them more effective as an important partner of the Government in the fight against crime; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details? N207E

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Madam Speaker, the answer is yes, the community policing forums are the best vehicle to connect communities with the police, as an expression of the concept of community policing. Put at the centre of that relationship, the CPFs will be given the necessary authority to build and nurture that community–police relationship. We are, therefore, putting in place measures to make the CPFs autonomous bodies that will be responsible to the communities, to mediate between them and the police.

The CPFs will be established through a democratic process, including elections. The functions of the revamped CPFs will include building confidence between the communities and the police, helping to root the police among the people as trusted allies in the fight against crime, determining, together with the police, policing priorities in the given community and assessing police performance on the basis of those priorities.

The CPFs will be resourced by the government and members will receive training for better management and effective communication with all stakeholders. Thank you.

Mr M S MOATSHE: Thank you, Minister, for your comprehensive answer. Will you please indicate to this House what the likely impact is that the Minister expects as a result of these measures aimed at the strengthening of CPFs? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: There will, of course, be an improvement in terms of policing in all the areas where there will be these structures. Given the fact that we have always recognised that when you have better community-police relations, then crime in those areas does decrease. We are certain, therefore, that there will be very drastic reductions in crime in those areas.

We have already started a programme where some of the communities are already working with the police, and in those areas crime has indeed gone down. That is the impact that we will have. But more than that, we will have better co-ordination of all the resources that will be deployed in these given areas, and conditions will be created for engaging more people, on the basis of poverty alleviation, who will work side by side with the police as reservists. We believe, therefore, that when we do this, which, by the way, is an accepted practice in most democracies, we will indeed be impacting very positively on the fight against crime. Thank you.

Mr C M MORKEL: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Minister, CPFs are based in geographical communities, but we have also seen recently the roll-out of the railway police on certain routes. Do you see an opportunity to extend the type of role communities play in geographical police areas on those routes in overseeing the railway police, especially regular commuters that would perhaps be part of a mobile CPF or become reservists that travel regularly on that route? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: That also fits into the design that we have, because, in the end, we are going to have community police forums in all areas that are therefore going to work with the police, among other things, to identify people within those communities that can become part of the reservist system.

An arrangement can be made under the command and control of the CPFs for them to have a relationship with other areas where there will be CPFs, so that the reservists become part and parcel of railway policing. In other words, you will have people who, together with the police, will be at the railway stations and will be on the trains themselves.

We don’t want to create many structures for this. The CPFs can do that kind of work. It is correct that that would also benefit from the revamped community police forums, because those are intended indeed to encourage better community-police relations. Thank you.

Mnr R J KING: Agb Minister, die President beklemtoon in die staatsrede die noodsaaklikheid van vennootskappe in samewerking oor staat en gemeenskappe heen ten einde misdaad te beveg. Die President voorsien die uitbouing van die Gemeenskapspolisiëringsforums tot geïntegreerde gemeenskapsveiligheidsentrums.

Onmiddellik kom dit by ’n mens op, ’n wonderlike ideaal, mits u departement nie hierdeur probeer wegskram van die verantwoordelikheid vir die werwing, opleiding, finansiële ondersteuning, uitbouing, bevordering en erkenning nie. Is u bereid om die volle verantwoordelikheid vorentoe te aanvaar dat Gemeenskapspolisiëringsforums sal werk? (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr R J King: Hon Minister, in his state of the nation address the President emphasised the need for partnerships to co-operate across state and community lines in order to fight crime. The President envisages the extension of community police forums into integrated community safety centres.

What immediately comes to mind is that it is a wonderful ideal, provided that your department does not in this manner try to avoid the responsibility of recruitment, training, financial support, extension, promotion and acknowledgement. Are you prepared to accept full responsibility in future for the success of community police forums?]

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: As you know, I can speak Afrikaans, but I wanted to be certain that the interpretation is correct upstairs. Of course, this is not an abdication of our responsibilities. We have made this abundantly clear from the outset. All that is happening is that we are inviting the communities to participate in providing national security everywhere in South Africa and, as I say, this is not a practice that is unique only to South Africa. It happens elsewhere in the world as well, but the law-enforcement agencies don’t abdicate their responsibility; they will be leading from the front in respect to these matters.

It is better to work together with the people, particularly because the criminals that we are fighting live among the people, and, therefore, the people are the best repository for information - the very information we require in order for us to conduct investigations successfully. We are not abdicating our responsibility.

Ms S RAJBALLY: Madam Deputy Speaker, Minister, in my constituency all the smaller organisations got together and formed a community police forum where each home in the Havenside area is paying R150 per home and we have 24-hour police security. We bought bicycles and four-wheel scooters for them to use.

I am happy to hear that we can get some assistance from your department. Can you please kindly let me know who we can contact to get some sort of assistance? Thank you very much.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: It is those experiences of our people that in fact have informed what we are trying to do. Over many years now there have been communities indeed that have collected some resources in order for them to ensure that there is some community activity that is designed to assist the law-enforcement agencies.

As I said in my speech the other day in this House, there are even some members, like you, who participate in those programmes. What we are saying is that we must create conditions, and those can only be made possible as a consequence of decisions that we must take here, because we must change the law in order for us to do all these things. It does not mean that when you have started something like that you can’t approach, for instance, your local station commander. You go to that person, the commissioner there, and speak with him or her.

I am sure the police will be able to help, but I really appreciate the role that people, like some of these hon members in this House, are playing. Fortunately, you do understand that when we make the kind of call we have made, it is not because we ourselves want to walk away from our responsibility. Thank you very much for that.

     Release of crime statistics and targets for crime reduction

1. Ms D Kohler-Barnard (DA) asked the Minister of Safety and Security:

   (1) Whether he will release crime statistics to the public and the legislatures so that his department’s performance can be properly assessed; if not, why not; if so, when;

   (2) whether he will outline a set of targets for crime reduction, by category; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (3) whether he will step down if he fails to achieve these targets; if not, why not;

   (4) what is the government’s position on transparency, with specific reference to his department’s refusal to release up-to-date crime statistics? N225E

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: It is our department’s policy to release crime statistics annually for all levels of policing before the end of September of the financial year, following the year of release. The last crime statistics, therefore, were released in September last year as part of the SA Police Service’s annual report.

This department’s performance is assessed against quarterly reports to the National Treasury. The targets set for crime reduction are already a common cause. To repeat, the police are expected to reduce serious and violent crimes by between 7% and 10% annually until 2014. Those serious and violent crimes include murder, attempted murder, rape, indecent assault, assault, serious assault and common assault, aggravated robbery and common robbery. While no target has been set for the other categories of crime, the reduction of crime is part of the mandate of SAPS to prevent and combat crime. To that extent, therefore, the police are determined to reduce the levels of all crime, as has been happening since 1995, when the SAPS was established.

There’s a question about stepping down and I want to say that I’ve responded to that question in the past, hon member, and I’m not going to repeat myself. I’m inviting you, therefore, hon member, to go to Hansard and that’s where you’ll get the answer.

The hon member knows that we are transparent. We publish an annual report on the activities of the SAPS, including crime prevention and crime- combating activities. And statistics are part and parcel of that report. That is being transparent. There are many countries in the world that embraced democracy much earlier than we did but which do not publish statistics.

Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Minister, you told me in an answer to a parliamentary question last year that you would present your annual crime statistics to Parliament before releasing them to the press. You stated that you would, but you then chose not to. In fact, these figures are never even presented to the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security to assist us in our oversight duties. You stated that you would bring them to Parliament first – you didn’t. Will you reconsider, and, at the very least, bring them to the portfolio committee before your annual bun fight?

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Madam Deputy Speaker, I hope that you are going to indicate to her that the first thing we do indeed is to submit those reports to Parliament. By the time we interact with the media, those reports have been submitted to Parliament. I don’t know what you are referring to when you say we have not submitted them to Parliament before we released them to the media - because we did.

Mnu V B NDLOVU: Mhlonishwa Phini likaSomlomo, bengicela ukubuza ukuthi, njengoba sikhuluma ngezibalo nje, mhlawumbe umqondosimo lo esasinawo wokumbandakanya yonke iMinyango … [Ubuwelewele.] Uxolo kancane. Ake nithi ukwehlisa umsindo. [Uhleko.] Phini likaSomlomo, ngicela ungikhuzele la malungu … (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Mr V B NDLOVU: Hon Deputy Speaker, I would like to know whether, as we are talking about the statistics, maybe the attitude that we had to include all departments … [Interjections] Excuse me. Could you please lower your voices. [Laughter.] Deputy Speaker, would you please call these members to order.] The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon House Chair, will you please help us maintain order in your corner there.

Mnu V B NDLOVU: Ngiyabonga, Phini likaSomlomo. Bengithi angibuze kumhlonishwa ukuthi isu …

IPHINI LIKASOMLOMO: Khulumela kule nto yezwi khona sizokuzwa phela.

Mnu V B NDLOVU: Ngiyabonga Phini likaSomlomo. Bengithi angibuze kumhlonishwa ukuthi isu lethu esake salisebenzisa lokumbandakanya yonke iMinyango ekulweni nale nto esikhuluma ngayo, ubugebengu, bekungeke kwakuhle yini silibuyise ukuze kungabi uMnyango wakho kuphela wamaphoyisa okufanele ubhekane nalesi simo kanti kukhona nezigebengu eziqhamuka kweminye iMinyango? (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Mr V B NDLOVU: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. I wanted to ask the hon Minister whether the plan …

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Speak into the microphone so that we can hear you.

Mr V B NDLOVU: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. I wanted to ask the hon Minister whether the plan that we previously used of integrating all the departments in fighting crime could be brought back so that it does not only end up being the Department of Safety and Security that deals with this problem as there are criminals from other departments too.]

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: I don’t know what he means by that.

Eqinisweni, yilo Mnyango obhekene nezigebengu. [In fact, it is this department that deals with criminals.]

But, as you’d appreciate, we do work in clusters and our cluster is a big one. All the people in that cluster are working on the basis of the integrated criminal justice system.

IPHINI LIKASOMLOMO: Sengihlulekie ukukusiza baba ngoba kade ngikucela ngithi khuluma ngendlela yokuthi ngikwazi ukukuzwa kodwa wena ube ukhulumela phansi. Nokho-ke ngiyethemba ukuthi ubaba useyitholile impendulo. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have failed to assist you, hon member, because I have requested you several times to speak audibly so that I can hear you, but you continue to speak softly. Anyway, I just hope that you got your reply.]

Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Minister, I would like to put it to you that, in fact, you did not submit them to Parliament. We checked extensively on the day of your press conference. There was nothing available at all to anyone asking. So, I don’t know where you released them or to whom, but it certainly was not to Parliament.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: I don’t know if we are going to have this kind of argument with the hon member. The fact of the matter is that we would never ever go to anyone else and release a report we know has to be submitted to Parliament first of all. We did that and whatever you did - I mean you have your own structures and I have mine. You have your own means of verifying things and I have my own. I’m saying and I am putting it to you that we submitted that report before we went public with it. [Interjections.]

    Safekeeping and control of police dockets at police stations

1. Mr V B Ndlovu (IFP) asked the Minister of Safety and Security:

   Whether any steps are being taken to improve the (a) controls over and (b) safekeeping of police dockets at police stations; if not, why not; if so, what steps? N236E

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Madam Deputy Speaker, the answer to both questions is yes. The following are the steps we have taken: Firstly, there are lockable facilities that have been issued to the detective service component for the secure storage of dockets in order to prevent losses and unauthorised access to such dockets. Instructions to keep offices of investigating officers locked during their absence have been issued to prevent unauthorised access to dockets and/or theft thereof.

Dockets forwarded to and received from court are audited to prevent losses that may arise. Strong departmental action is taken against members who are found to have negligently lost dockets. All docket losses are monitored by the head office by means of a monthly return from the provinces. Thank you.

Mnu V B NDLOVU: Phini likaSomlomo, mhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe, umqondosimo walo mbuzo ubuqonde ukubuza ukuthi uma selilahlekile idokodo, kwenzekani kumnikazi wedokodo? Uma lilahlekile idokodo kube kukhona ophakathi, oboshiwe, kwenzeka njani kuyena? Uma lidayisiwe, lowo olidayisile kwenziwa njani ngaye? Lo olithengile yena-ke wenziwa njani?

Le mibuzo ngiyibuza ngoba, ekugcineni, kuye kube sengathi yilaba abaphenyayo kuphela abanecala kanti mhlawumbe baningi abant u abathintekayo ekulahlekeni nasekwebiweni kwamadokodo. Kuye kwenzeke njani kulaba bantu abayimixhantela ekwenzeni lo mkhuba omubi kangaka? (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Mr V B NDLOVU: Deputy Madam Speaker, hon Minister, the core of this question was to ask what happens when the docket is lost. What happens to the owner of the docket? When the docket is lost and there is an accused person who is languishing in jail, what happens to him? If the docket has been sold, what happens to the person who sold it? And what happens to the one who bought it?

I am asking these questions because, at the end of the day, it always looks like it is only the detectives who are guilty whereas in fact there are many other people who are involved in the disappearance of dockets. What happens to these other people who are involved in this bad practice?]

UMPHATHISWA WEZOKHUSELO NOKHUSELEKO: Xa kuphandwa, kuphandwa umntu lo belikuye idokethi. Uphandwa kunye nabanye abantu ekufumaniseka ukuba bayabandakanyeka kulo mkhuba mbi. Kuphandwa wonke umntu kuquka nabo othi wena bayalithenga idokethi, nabo bayaphandwa. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: When an investigation is conducted, it is into the official who handled the docket, together with everybody who has been found to have been involved. This includes those that you claim buy the docket.]

Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Minister, in this technological age, no copy is made of dockets as they are completed. Now, the single piece of paper that represents a victim’s right to justice then becomes a second victim. Firstly, it might become a victim of shoddy filing, or shoddy police work, and never to be found again. Secondly, and more commonly, it becomes a secondary victim for the perpetrator. While it is unforgivable for a member of the SA Police Service to lose a docket, it is equally so that certain members are corrupt and will dispose of a docket in exchange for money. Have the members of the SAPS been trained to detect and report such corruption within their ranks, and if they have, why is it still happening?

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: It is true that it is still happening and, I must indicate, not to the same degree and level as was the case in the past. There are measures that are in place to deal with this matter. It is not only just a matter of people who lose dockets or what-have-you. That situation is very serious. It is criminal, in fact, for any person who is conducting an investigation to lose any aspect of that investigation, including whatever information is available as well as information in the dockets themselves.

This is a matter that we are addressing on an ongoing basis. Quite soon our systems are going to be such that it is not going to be possible for people to sell any dockets, because - I am sure many members are aware now - we are converting very rapidly to high technology in order to deal with all these matters. Thank you.

Mr S MAHOTE: Deputy Speaker, Minister, will the department under your guidance give due consideration to the electronic backup of dockets?

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Yes, we do, and we have even gone one step further. The other day, the members of the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security were shown what the police as a management and performance tool defines. What we have been able to do with regard to that is that we are recalling a number of dockets that were closed as undetected, and we are reopening those dockets in order for us to restart investigations in a proper way. What we are doing is that, using that instrument, the dockets are now being electronically stored so that we can deal with matters, including this issue of where some of the dockets are lost. Thank you.

Nksz N M MDAKA: Mphathiswa obekekileyo, inyaniso yinyaniso, ngoba xa bekweqe ibanjwa elikhulu ejele, isebe lakho likwazile ukuba lilibambe elo banjwa. Asizi kukutyhafisa ke xa lisebenza isebe lakho. Apha size kwakha ilizwe, size nathi sakhane. Asisoze sizigxeke izinto ezintle xa zisenzeka. Asizi kuthi kuba siliqela eliphikisayo siphikise nokuba kugqitha impukane, sisithi isuka kubani ibimelwe kukuba iya kuzibani. Inyaniso mayihlale iyinyaniso. Lisasebenza kakuhle isebe lakho okwangoku. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[Mrs N M MDAKA: Hon Minister, the truth is the truth. Your department has been able to rearrest a dangerous prisoner who had escaped from prison. We are not going to discourage and discredit you when your department is doing a good job. Our purpose is to build a nation. We are not, because we are an opposition party, objecting to the good things just for the sake of opposing. The truth must always remain the truth. For now, your department is doing a sterling job. [Applause.]]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: That is not a question, but a compliment. I don’t know whether …

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Hayi nam ndifuna nje ukuthi ndiyabulela. Halala! [I also want to say thank you.]

            Shortage of artisans in Correctional Services

1. Mr D V Bloem (ANC) asked the Minister of Correctional Services:

   Whether he has been informed of the shortage of artisans in Correctional Services workshops nationally; if so, (a) what has his department done to attract and retain artisans and (b) what measures have been put in place to review the current remuneration packages of artisans? N205E

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Deputy Speaker, in reply to the question by the chairperson of the portfolio committee, the Department of Correctional Services does have a vacancy rate of 6,5% in the specialised field of artisans.

However, the artisan field in Correctional Services – we’re talking about plumbers, fitters, motor mechanics and electricians here – is very broad, and the department is not experiencing shortages in all fields. Each vacant post is, therefore, dealt with on merit, in order to ensure the effective functioning of that specific trade.

The prepared reply goes as follows:

(a) The department has advertised 102 artisan posts since September 2006. Higher salaries have also been offered to artisans where a critical shortage exists. It’s not an easy task to retain artisans, due to the high demand and very high salaries in the broad labour market, which government departments cannot compete with. However, the department has resorted to making counter-offers in an effort to retain their services.

 b) The position of artisan, as with other scarce-skills occupational
    classes, has been revised and a new code of remuneration has been
    developed to cater for the specific needs of artisans. However, the
    impact of the high salaries and the different working conditions,
    which are also difficult within Correctional Services and in the
    labour market, is not only being felt with regard to artisans, and,
    therefore, the department is addressing all these scarce-skills
    occupational classes within the available budgetary allocations and
    the Department of Public Service and Administration mandates. Other
    initiatives, such as bonus incentives and payments for trade tests
    are also being considered under the department’s recruitment and
    retention strategy.

Thank you.

Mnr D V BLOEM: Mevrou die Adjunkspeaker, baie dankie aan die Minister vir die inligting wat u vandag vir ons gegee het.

Ek dink hierdie storie moet baie dringend ondersoek word. Die Witskrif vir Korrektiewe Dienste lê spesifiek klem op rehabilitasie, maar ons sit met ’n probleem. Ons het byvoorbeeld verlede maand Drakenstein besoek. Daar’s ook ’n tekort. In St Albans is daar ’n werkswinkel wat toe staan. Ek dink ons moet ernstig aandag gee aan hierdie probleem om rehabilitasie ’n werklikheid te maak, anders gaan ons met ’n groter probleem sit van mense wat nie gerehabiliteer word nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr D V Bloem: Madam Deputy Speaker, thank you very much to the Minister for the information you imparted here today.

I think this story should be investigated as a matter of urgency. The White Paper on Correctional Services specifically puts the emphasis on rehabilitation, but we are faced with a problem. For example, we visited Drakenstein last month. There is also a shortage. In St Albans there is a workshop that is not in use. I think we should give serious attention to this problem in order to make rehabilitation a reality, otherwise we will be faced with the much bigger problem of people not being rehabilitated.]

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: I do agree with you fully that this must be addressed quite soon, and you’re quite correct as well that the emphasis of Correctional Services is on rehabilitation, and when these workshops are short of artisans it makes life very difficult. But, as you well know, there are other programmes as well in which offenders can participate.

Whilst we are busy dealing with that, one of the requirements I’m pushing to make within Correctional Services is that offenders must participate in at least four programmes before they are even given a chance to go to the Parole Board. It is one of those things that we’ll be able to gauge them with. There is agriculture, there are the workshops, there are lots of other programmes that we have.

In Drakenstein we have a huge agricultural farm – some of them participate in those – and in St Albans we also have huge workshops which I’m trying to address very quickly. We will give, and are giving, serious attention to all these issues. Thank you.

Mr J SELFE: Deputy Speaker, the hon Bloem is absolutely correct. On a visit to Malmesbury Correctional Centre in June last year I observed four workshops that could have been used to rehabilitate inmates standing completely empty, and the reason for them standing empty was that the artisans who used to train the inmates had all left the service. Apparently some six to eight officials leave that facility every month, mainly to go and run prisons in New Zealand.

Now, what steps is the Minister taking to stop our people from leaving to go and run prisons in New Zealand, and what steps is the Minister taking to employ artisans as part of an outreach or partnership with other institutions in the private sector to fill these gaps on a temporary basis?

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon member, as I have mentioned, you’ll find that in areas such as Malmesbury, and other areas, there’s been a problem of vacancies not being funded, but those are things that I’m addressing now to try and get those vacancies to be funded so that we can retain some of those artisans.

But we also want to decentralise our advertising of vacancies. For a long time they’ve been done at national level, but now we’re giving them to the regions to look at so that they can address those issues very quickly within their own management areas.

Artisans do leave, as I’ve mentioned here, because they get better offers. We have also said that we were going to increase our counter-offers to them so that they don’t leave. If there are departments that have these artisans, we’ll work with them so that they can do some shifts with us and some shifts with them. These are things that we are addressing at the moment. Thank you.

Mrs S A SEATON: Madam Deputy Speaker, I concur with my colleagues that there’s a serious problem here and it’s something that does need to be sorted out. I’ve been partly covered by the questions posed by my colleagues, but a further question is: We have talked for many years now about an income-producing facility. In other words, we’re saying that most of these artisans are working in situations where they could be producing an income for the department which could be used towards the salaries of these people.

The question that I also pose is: Are these artisans tutors or are they merely artisans? There’s a difference between somebody who is an artisan and somebody who is capable of teaching, and I think we need to address that issue as well and perhaps look at the salaries that should be paid for that particular qualification. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon member, remember that I have said that we are trying to address these together with Treasury and with the Department of Public Service and Administration. I’ll tell you why I said Treasury; because we do produce some of the stuff in the workshops, and it’s quite beautiful stuff that offenders produce, but we cannot just sell it on the open market. [Interjections.] He has his Constitution, looking at me. I’ve been pleading with them that some of the money that we get … Quite rightly, Treasury says we should give it to them. [Interjections.] Exactly! It goes back. So I’m trying to ask if we can’t retain that so that we can increase the salaries of these artisans.

There is a difference – you are right – between tutors and artisans. We still have the tutors as well, and we’re battling in that regard too, but the more pressure we can put on Treasury, and a little bit of pressure on Labour, because Labour also … [Interjections.] I’ll sit on you! [Laughter.] I will sit on you. I’m bigger than you!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: It’s unparliamentary to sit on any hon member!

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Sorry, sorry, Chair. That threat is unparliamentary. I will not sit on him. [Interjections.] No, I won’t do that.

Also, some of the salaries are kept by Public Service and Administration. That’s another problem that we are facing. We are trying to plead with the DPSA not to cap the salaries, because we’re losing people in the process. Let’s try and use whatever funding we have to make sure that we retain them. We’re going to be working very hard towards that. Mr M J ELLIS: [Inaudible.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Ellis, you’re out of order!

Mnr D V BLOEM: Minister, baie dankie, ek is doodseker die lede daar buite wat vandag na u antwoord geluister het, gaan harder werk, want hulle weet u het gepraat met die Minister van Finansies en dat hierdie mense nou hier in Suid-Afrika gaan bly en beter werk doen. [Tussenwerpsels.] Die vraag is nou, wanneer gaan u met die Minister van Finansies praat? [Gelag.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mr D V Bloem: Minister, thank you, I am absolutely certain that the members out there who have listened to your reply today are going to work harder, because they know that you have spoken to the Minister of Finance and that those people will be remaining in South Africa and will be improving their efforts.[Interjections.] The question remains, when are you going to speak to the Minister of Finance? [Laughter.]]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: As long as there’s nothing like sitting on an hon member! [Laughter.]

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chair, I did apologise for that.

Ek is ook doodseker … [I am also very sure] … that we will try our best to address some of these issues. However, I’m also making a call to artisans who are retired and are out there – plumbers and other people, and even amongst the offenders we do have some of these artisans – to come forward so that we can give them some work to do so as to help the others to gain these skills. I’m making that call, but I’m making that call also to offenders, because we have plumbers who are offenders and they do work within our facilities and we do pay them a certain stipend.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, Minister. We are very happy today to hear that the Minister is very tweetalig [bilingual], but to use the two languages in one sentence takes some doing. Excellent! Very good.

Escapes from prison, method of escape, escapees assisted by police officers and prosecutions

1. Rev K R J Meshoe (ACDP) asked the Minister of Safety and Security:

   (1) (a) How many persons have escaped from prisons and holding cells during the most recent 12-month period for which information is available and (b) what was the method of operation used by each escapee;

   (2) whether there were any cases where police officers assisted prisoners who escaped; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (3) whether any police officers have been prosecuted as a result; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? N231E

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The member who asked the question is not in the House, but he has indicated to us that Mr Swart will ask the supplementary questions, if there are any.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. I was worried, because I had made an arrangement with him earlier on that one of his questions needed further investigation by us, and, therefore, we would not be able to answer it today.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Is it this one?

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: No, this one is straightforward. I don’t think it is this one. So I was worried that he may have been under the impression that it is this question. It is the second one, not this one.

There are 1 908 of these people who escaped from police custody during the 2005-06 financial year. Not all of them of course escaped from police cells; some of them escaped from police vehicles and the community service centres.

The escapees do not include those who escaped from Correctional Services. [Interjections.] There were none? [Interjections.] OK, I was going to say you should ask him about those from Correctional Services.

Of course, there are some police officers who connived with some of these escapees and in so doing facilitated their escape. Departmental disciplinary procedures were instituted against 38 of them, and 12 members were convicted through that departmental process. But 31 criminal prosecutions were preferred against others and two were convicted. Thank you very much.

Mr S N SWART: Madam Deputy Speaker, may I, firstly, apologise, hon Minister, that the hon Meshoe is not in the House today.

The ACDP shares concerns regarding escapes from courts, prisons and holding cells, particularly where such escapes involve high-profile and dangerous prisoners. One escape is one too many; 1 908 appears to be unacceptable. When police or prison officials additionally assist in escapes, they put the lives of colleagues and the public at risk, and it becomes all the more reprehensible. We therefore welcome the fact, hon Minister, that where officials have been found to be implicated, they face the full force of the law.

In view of your response, hon Minister, are you satisfied that sufficient steps are being taken by the police to prevent persons escaping from holding cells or when being transported to courts, or appearing in courts? Will the SAPS continue to probe the possibility of prison officials being bribed to help Ananias Mathe escape, as suggested by the investigating team? Thank you very much.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Madam Deputy Speaker, my colleague is asking if we can share this question. I’ll take a bit and he can take the rest. [Laughter.] No, it is not a joke, because two departments are involved. I will take the part that relates to the prisons.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I am agreeing to that.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Thank you very much. I hope the hon member did not say that we are putting in place “suspicious” steps. Did you say that? What did you say? [Interjections.] Sufficient? Oh, sorry. My ears are 65 years old this year. [Interjections.] At times I don’t hear. You are much younger than some of the ancients who are sitting over there. [Laughter.]

Madam Deputy Speaker, there is nothing that is as overwhelmingly wrong and in fact highly criminal as law-enforcement agencies that facilitate escapes by these criminals. Because when they do that, they are actually allowing people like that to go out and kill their colleagues, which has happened in the past.

We are taking a very, very serious view of that matter. In fact, we are looking at measures to deal seriously with people who would allow for this. I may also mention the fact that we are putting together systems that will ensure that those who murder these officials are going to face the full might of the law, because we cannot allow a situation where our members are murdered. Therefore, if it is their own colleagues, in the first instance, who create conditions for them to be murdered, we want to do something which is going to be very drastic to deal with that situation. We are investigating every avenue that relates to escaped criminals, to find out if there is anyone in the Service who might be culpable for such an escape. Thank you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The second part of the response?

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy Speaker, I do agree with the hon member: One escape is one escape too many. I agree with you fully, it is what I say to my officials all the time.

Our escape record at the moment is looking quite good, because it has gone completely down in number. Regarding the fact that an awaiting-trial detainee called Ananias escaped, who was not even supposed to be in that centre fortunately, we raised this with the portfolio committee last week concerning the report that had been put together by a team from the NIA, the SAPS and Correctional Services. That is the report which was then presented to the portfolio committee last week. It ended with me owning that report as if it had been written by me. I ended up being the “mampara of the week”, when, in fact, the report was not my report. The report comes from that team. But, of course, when you are in these kinds of places you have to have a thick skin.

That team is working together. We have not disbanded that team. Regarding that, nine officials have been suspended and are being criminally charged as well, because we cannot allow a situation where people endanger the lives of society, and endanger the lives of their colleagues for a few pieces of silver. We cannot allow that.

Lastly, that report is a team report and they are still following up on the leads of what happened. They will come up with something much more criminal than what is in that report. Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, Minister. We hope you don’t earn that title again this weekend. Mr M S BOOI: Madam Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, are you in a position to share a little bit about the effort that they are making to curb this particular problem? Will you highlight to the House, as you are busy putting measures in place, what it is that you are really doing to assist to combat this particular problem of escapees from police cells and the different cars that they get into? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Madam Deputy Speaker, as I said earlier on, we are beginning a process where we are converting to high technology on a number of things. I was going to speak to the chairperson of the portfolio committee, but I may as well publicly extend this invitation to her. There are various things that we are doing. On Thursday, 8 March, we are going to a facility in Midrand, Gauteng, that we have developed. That facility traces people and vehicles. We are therefore going to be using it to ensure that we cover the country in terms of crime prevention. Because it relates to crime prevention and even the issue of escapees, those people who commit crimes and try to use our highways and freeways to escape are going to face the law-enforcement agencies, because there is not going to be a way in which they are going to get out of the rings that we are going to create to deal with that situation.

At the right time, chairperson of the portfolio committee, we are going to invite members of the portfolio committee to go and see that facility, in order for you to have a broader understanding of some of the measures we are beginning to put in place to deal with crime in South Africa. Thank you.

Mnr R J KING: Minister, kan ek maar asseblief Afrikaans praat? Dankie.

Mev die Speaker, in die geval van ’n polisiebeampte wat verdink word van hulpverlening aan ’n ontsnapte uit die selle of voertuie of wat die geval ook al is, uit bewaring, wat is die onmiddellike stappe teen so ’n verdagte, en kan u dit asseblief, indien moontlik, met ’n voorbeeld illustreer, wat u onmiddellik doen om op te tree as daar so ’n, ek wil sê, verdagte vrot appel in die mandjie is? (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr R J KING: Minister, may I please speak Afrikaans? Thank you.

Madam Speaker, in the case of a police officer being suspected of rendering assistance to an escapee from the cells or vehicles or whatever the case may be, from custody, what are the immediate steps to be taken against such a suspect, and could you please, if it is possible, illustrate, by using an example, what immediate steps you take if there is such a - as I would like to put it - suspected rotten apple in the barrel?]

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Madam Deputy Speaker, if members of the public, including, of course, public representatives such as you come into possession of such information, we require that information, because, indeed, we want to get rid of those members who pretend to be law enforcers who, instead, act criminally. We want to deal with that element. And, therefore, immediately a person is seen to be committing any crime, please report it.

There are a number of areas in which reports can be given, including the general number that we have. I know that at times people are saying they cannot get through to that number. In fact, the facility that I am talking about will also address the issue of 10333. But there are others. There is the ICD which can receive those reports. But the easiest thing to do would be to report such a person to the nearest police station. And of course we have a law that allows for civilian arrests of people who commit crimes. One can even effect a civilian arrest. Thank you.

Mnu V B NDLOVU: Mhlonishwa Phini likaSomlomo, bengicela ukubuza kumhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe ukuthi ubani othatha isinqumo sokuthi isigebengu esithile kufanele singene siboshwe imilenze nezinyawo enkantolo? Ngabe nguMnyango wakho noma uMnyango Wezokuhlunyeleliswa Kwezimilo, kumbe nguMnyango wezobulungiswa? Ubani othatha isinqumo esinjalo ngoba kubonakala sengathi kukhona okufanele bakhulekwe imilenze nezinyawo uma beya laphaya? Kukhona abafana nalabo kodwa bona abangakhulekwa imilenze nezinyawo. Othatha lesi sinqumo kanti ubani ngempela? (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.) [Mr V B NDLOVU: Hon Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to ask the hon Minister who takes the decision to say that a particular prisoner should appear in court in handcuffs and leg irons? Is it taken by your department or it is the Department of Correctional Services, or maybe the Department of Justice? Who makes such a decision, because it looks like there are those who should be in chains when they go to court only to find that they are not? Who really takes this decision?]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: It is up to the Minister, if he would like to respond to that question. We always ask members to try to stay as close as possible to the original question. But maybe, because it relates to escapees, it is up to the two Ministers – also because it is now a two-pronged question. I think we should now give you another slot of responding, the two of you, if you want to.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Madam Deputy Speaker, I will give the greater portion to my colleague. My own answer is: Asindim, baba. [It’s not me, hon member.]

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Asindim. [It’s not me.]

The DEPUTY SPEKER: Enkosi. [Thank you.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: How is it possible that two Ministers respond to each question? Does that mean that the questioners here will all get two opportunities as well? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Minister, are you done?

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: I am not.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: OK, I will come back to you.

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Madam Deputy Speaker, whenever there is an escape or we have risk-profiled a particular offender, it is important that that offender is handcuffed and is footcuffed as well when going to court, because we have to protect the officials. I have lost too many officials because of offenders who were not cuffed, and I am not going to take a chance on that at all. The lives of those officials are very important.

When we get to the courtroom – I am not talking about the police, I am talking about Correctional Services – in most cases we are able to take off the footcuffs. But we don’t take the risk, particularly with high-risk criminals, taking off the handcuffs, because they have to be protected as well. So I did not take the decision, but I support that people who are dangerous must be cuffed, end of story. I am working in a security environment, not in any other environment. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr Gibson, there has been an occasion where a member has been given more than one slot, when they felt they needed more answers to the question that they had raised. We allowed them to do that. But when a member actually says “my question is related to two departments” and the Ministers who have the information are here in the House, and this whole exercise is about information sharing, we cannot say, “No, only one Minister may answer.” That is counterproductive. That is actually saying to us what we are trying to do here is not what we expect to get out of the exercise. So the purpose of the exercise is that, whatever information is available here will go to the hon members and to the nation, because the nation needs that information. Thank you. [Applause.] [Interjections.] We have more time. Do you want to put more questions to the Ministers?

Mnu A M MPONTSHANE: Mhlonishwa Phini likaSomlomo, bengicela ukusho ukuthi umbuzo obuzwe yilungu lethu maqondana nokuthi ubani othatha isinqumo awuphenduliwe.

IPHINI LIKASOMLOMO: Yebo. Ilungu liye labuza maqondana neMinyango emithathu. Angithi kunjalo baba? Angithi ububuze umbuzo maqondana neMinyango emithathu? IMinyango emibili iziphendulele kodwa uMnyango Wezobulungiswa awuphendulanga. [Ubuwelewele.] ONgqongqoshe ababili bamphendulile. Ilungu lami elihloniphekile lithi lona lijabulile, angazi-ke wena baba ukuthi ungena ngaphi. [Uhleko.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Hon Madam Deputy Speaker, may I indicate that the question asked by our member in connection with who takes the decision to chain prisoners has not been answered.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes. The hon member posed a question to three departments. Is that so hon member? You asked a question to three departments? Two departments have answered for themselves but the Department of Justice has not. [Interjections.] Two Ministers have answered him. My hon member says he is happy, and I do not know where you fit in, sir. [Laughter.]]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Deputy Speaker, the third Minister is in the House, and in the spirit that you explained … [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I think this slot belongs to the IFP - unless they are saying you should speak on their behalf, because I’m sure that they are able to say exactly what you are saying, Mr Gibson.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I thought that the hon Mpontshane had finished – I thought he’d finished.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You just have to polish your isiZulu, then you would know that he had not finished.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: When he has finished then, perhaps, I could have a turn at addressing you, Madam, in the spirit of telling the nation what’s going on.

Mnu V B NDLOVU: Phini likaSomlomo, bese ngilindele ukuthi mhlawumbe umhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe wezobulungiswa uzothi nguyena ngoba laba ababili bathe akubona. Bengibabuze bobathathu.

IPHINI LIKASOMLOMO: Hlala phansi-ke baba. Ngeke ngize ngimcele uNgqongqoshe ngaphandle uma kunguye ofuna ukukhuluma ngalolu daba, ngoba mina ngithe … (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Mr V B NDLOVU: Madam Deputy Speaker, I was expecting that maybe the hon Minister of Justice would say she is the one who decides because the other two said it’s not them. I asked all three of them.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Have a seat, sir. I will not ask the Minister, except if she wants to talk about this matter, because I said …]

… the question that was raised and the questions that are raised as supplementary questions should be as close as possible to the initial question. I said to them it is up to them to answer if they felt like it, but they are not compelled under this exercise to do so, because the question is not a supplementary question at all, it’s a new question. They have honoured you by responding to you. And I’m going to ask that the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development do so, if she feels that she would like to respond to you. But if she does not feel like it, then we shall proceed. Justice? [Interjections.]

Mr Ellis, there’s no Brigette. No matter how excited we get, we are hon members! She is hon Brigette Mabandla or hon Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development. Are we agreed on that, hon Ellis? Now, let’s give the opportunity to the Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Deputy Speaker, you did indicate … [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Deputy Minister, please take your seat. You were speaking on behalf of the IFP. The IFP … [Interjections.] I beg your pardon?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: You assumed that I was …

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, you said so. You said you were speaking because you thought you were putting across better what Mr Mpontshane had said to the House. Mr Ndlovu has done that very well and we are done with that matter. [Interjections.] On which point are you rising?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam, you wouldn’t allow me to continue so that I can finish …

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: On which point are you rising now?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I’m now rising on a point of asking whether the hon Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development won’t reconsider the question, in the spirit of advising the nation about how many people have escaped from holding cells? You explained how important it is for as many Ministers who are in the House to address the nation. Now, why don’t we give her an opportunity to reconsider her decision to say no?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I don’t think the Minister has a problem in answering that question. Put the question down. You are asking how many people escaped? I do not think that even if you had that responsibility, Mr Gibson, you would at any point in time be able to give the statistics. Write down that question and let it go to the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development. I now close this matter on the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development. She is not answering any other questions! Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, are we finally going to hear you?

  South Africa’s role in defusing the volatile situation in Somalia

1. Ms F Hajaig (ANC) asked the Minister of Foreign Affairs:

   (1) What will South Africa, as chair of the peace, security and stability organ of the African Union, do to assist in defusing the volatile situation in Somalia;

   (2) whether the AU will be able to gather all role-players around the negotiation table; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (3) whether the intervention of the USA will be a positive factor in the resolution of this conflict, considering South Africa’s position of multi-lateral intervention in any area of conflict; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details? N212E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr A G H Pahad): Deputy Speaker, as I was saying before I was rudely interrupted … [Laughter.] The answer to point number one is that, in our capacity as the non-permanent member of the Security Council for the next two years, and as the President of the United Nations Security Council for the month of March 2007 and our membership of the AU, South Africa will continue to support the efforts of the UN, the African Union and the Intergovernmental Authority on Development in bringing about peace in Somalia.

South Africa supports the national reconciliation process in Somalia and is committed to assisting Somalia to assist the Somalia Transitional Federal Government to ensure that the national reconciliation process is all- inclusive and incorporates all relevant role-players, including civil society, clan elders, elements of the Islamic Conference and the warlords.

The situation in Somalia is very volatile and violence is increasing. The United Nations Security Council has just passed a resolution sanctioning the dispatch of African Union forces to Somalia. We are now in the process, through the African Union, to try to get the 8 000 African troops to go to Somalia.

Regarding part two of the question, South Africa, through the AU, remains committed to ensuring the involvement of all the role-players in the peace process. We believe that all role-players who are committed to negotiations and who are prepared to seek a peaceful solution to the conflict in the state should be part of the process.

The interim Prime Minister of Somalia, Ali Ghedi, has recently agreed to hold talks with all the relevant parties in the peace process, including the leadership and members of the United Islamic Courts. This is also the position of the African Union and the Security Council.

With regard to part three of the question, America’s current intervention in Somalia is, lastly, in contact with multilateral efforts. Currently, these efforts are being exercised through its membership of the United Nations Security Council, the role it plays in the international contact group on Somalia and through the funding of the AU mission in Somalia’s peacekeeping force.

To this extent, the involvement is constructive. Furthermore, it is our understanding that the US is in support of the inclusive political dialogue, consistent with the earlier statements I have made.

Ms F HAJAIG: Thank you, hon Deputy Minister, for your comprehensive reply. Will South Africa, in light of our various commitments elsewhere in Africa, be able to support Somalia to re-establish institutions of governance and train people to serve in various capacities in the post-conflict reconstruction of Somalia?

Further, if I may ask, how can South Africa assist in stopping more small arms and light weapons entering Africa, especially in conflict areas?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr A G H Pahad): Firstly, let me say that we are committed to assisting Somalia in every way possible to establish institutions of government. We cannot do it on our own. We would have to do it in partnership with the AU, the United Nations and the European Union, because the tasks are tremendous. I think we will do everything possible to achieve that.

The issue of small arms proliferating in Africa has been a huge problem for us for some time. We are signatories to all the relevant conventions on this. We will continue to work with the United Nations and the African Union to try to stop the flow of small arms to African conflict areas.

Mr L B LABUSCHAGNE: Minister, thank you for your reply. The situation in Somalia is of course unacceptable to all of us, and it is clear that we in South Africa, like our fellow Africans all over the continent, would like to see a peaceful outcome. Surely, Minister, the costs of logistics of peacekeeping are far beyond anything the AU can afford. Surely, the AU troops as well as our troops are stressed financially.

My question is whether we are prepared to actively engage the United States to contribute financially to assist the African Union and South Africa, and if needs be, to cover the costs of these operations?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr A G H Pahad): Chairperson, it is sometimes a problem when colleagues don’t listen to what we say. I’ve just said that the United States, as part of the Security Council and indeed as part of the contact group on Somalia, have already committed financial assistance to the AU forces for Somalia, and we will continue to deal with the United States and the European Union, and, indeed, the United Nations, to strive to ensure that enough resources are being made available for the African force to be effective in Somalia.

Adv Z L MADASA: Hon Deputy Minister, of course, the biggest challenge with regard to these peacekeeping efforts, as you have just indicated, is resources. It was mooted at some point that there is a move to raise the issue with the United Nations, regarding recognising AU peacekeeping missions as regional missions of the United Nations, and to recognise the AU as a regional entity of the UN, so that all these missions in that way became UN missions so that we do not have the necessity of asking all the time that the AU missions be converted. They can then automatically become UN missions by recognising AU peacekeeping missions as regional missions of the United Nations. I would like to know if there is any progress with regard to this proposal? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr A G H Pahad): There is nothing automatic about the process. The United Nations Security Council, which is charged with dealing with conflicts entrenched in international peace and security, discusses each issue on its merits.

There is now a growing acceptance that it would be better to utilise regional structures to deal with regional problems. In many of the African conflict situations, which are over 70% of the UN Security Council agenda, we do try to ensure that they become a UN initiative, and are then, by and large, supported by the presence of African troops in these conflict situations.

Let me quickly add that we do not want a situation to arise where the developed countries determine that this is no longer their problem and they just pass it on to the regional groups. We want to help them remain seized with us and, according to each conflict, determine what assistance the US will give to our African initiatives.

Attack on nurses at a youth centre in the Baviaanspoort Management Area

1. Bishop L J Tolo (ANC) asked the Minister of Correctional Services:

   (1) What happened to the inmates who attacked and injured two nurses at a certain youth centre (name furnished) in the Baviaanspoort Management Area in Gauteng on 11 August 2005;

   (2) whether any of these inmates were sentenced for this offence; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? N206E

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, hon Tolo, both inmates were transferred immediately from eMthonjeni Youth Centre in Baviaanspoort to C-Max facility in Pretoria. A case of rape, murder and assault was opened against both inmates.

The reply to the second part of the question is that the case against one of the inmates was withdrawn by the National Prosecuting Authority owing to a lack of evidence. The other inmate will appear in the High Court in August this year. We do know what is going to happen there. If he gets sentenced, we will move him to Kokstad super C-Max.

Mopishopo L J TOLO: Ke a leboga Modulasetulo. Mohlomphegi Tona ya Ditirelo tša Tshokollo ya Bagolegwa, karabo ya gago e tloge e re thabiša. Potšišo ke gore, ka ge bothata bjo bo diregile ngwagolola, elego ka 2005, a e ka ba le kopane le bothata kae moo le tšerego nako go tla go re sedimoša bjalo ka Palamente goba setšhaba? (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)

[Bishop L J TOLO: Thank you, Chairperson. The hon Minister of Correctional Services, we are pleased with your response. But the question is: What was the problem that it took you so long to bring the response to Parliament or to the public because the problem occurred back in 2005?]

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: I am sorry, Chairperson, the Minister of Finance is really heckling me today. He wants to speak on my behalf. I am not sure why I deserve this attention from him but he seems to like me too much today.

Bishop Tolo, we haven’t had a chance to come back to the portfolio committee to report on this particular case. But we have to work with other cases that you have asked us, as the portfolio committee, to work on. This particular case was one of the most painful, because I had to attend to it that Sunday afternoon. We have been following this up with the National Prosecuting Authority. We have been saying to them: “Please, speed up the case so that it can be closed and we can move on and look at other centres.”

What happened there is that one of those two inmates actually did us a disservice by attacking those nurses - people who were there to assist inmates and to make sure that they get the necessary medical attention. That has caused us quite a lot of no good. But I hope that the officials, wherever they are in all 243 centres in the country, will always be vigilant when they work in a correctional centre, because they are working with people who can do anything at any given time.

I am also appealing to offenders, whether they belong to numbers or gangsters, not to do that, because at the end of the day they are causing a problem for themselves with further charges. Also, these are some of the offenders, I think, we are not naive enough to believe will change. Some of them will not change; they will just continue doing the kinds of things that they are doing. We are appealing to offenders to really try their best to participate in programmes and not get involved in all these criminal activities.

Mr J SELFE: Chairperson, I should like to thank the hon Minister for his reply. I am sure that he appreciates that female officials who work particularly in high security centres are uniquely vulnerable in that environment. It is very often said by male officials that they have to look after themselves and also after their female colleagues in those circumstances. So, what I would like to know is what additional steps the Minister is contemplating to improve security, particularly for female staff working in correctional centres? Specifically, if those female officials were in any way attacked, what assistance was given to them to recover from the trauma that they suffered?

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, we do risk-profiling of offenders, whether they are awaiting trial or they are sentenced offenders. As they come into our centres, we have what we call the offender rehabilitation path, where we check on all the sentences and everything that they have been sent to us for and make sure that we classify them correctly. That is the first thing. We have to classify them correctly and make sure that they are in a maximum security centre if they need to go there.

The second thing is that we have an anti-gang strategy that we are employing to try and crush the gangs which are operating in our prisons. That is something that we are all geared to with my officials, to make sure that we clean up on those. But those gangsters who don’t seem to want to change or are totally cheeky and silly, we put aside and get officials who can look after them, because we cannot change them.

We are also declassifying certain maximum centres so that we know how much danger people will be exposed to in that maximum centre, and how many females will we put in there. My heart still goes out to those nurses, hon member. We have given their families support. There is also a settlement that we have reached with them. But, together with all the other officials, I take my hat off to those brave men and women who work under these difficult circumstances in our prisons.

Ms S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, hon Minister, these criminals who committed these crimes in prisons had already been sentenced and had been told whatever sentence they had to serve. Now that they have committed new crimes, what further sentence will you bestow on these people? The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: MaMkhize, when offenders that are sentenced do commit these further offences, we do not take the law into our own hands. If there has been a criminal offence that has been committed, we let the police know and they have to go through the courts again to receive their further sentences for that.

Therefore, it is not up to us to sentence them; we do not give sentences. It is the duty of the judiciary and magistrates to do that, and we respect them for that. But, at least, we know that once they get further charges it adds to the years that they still have to stay in prison.

And we don’t make prison life very, very comfortable for all prisoners that are inside. We are trying our best to make sure that privileges are limited. Once you commit a crime, we try to use the incentive-based system so that, through incentives, you go up from being a phase-1 offender to another phase. We are trying to encourage them to get out of prison rather than staying in prison.

Mrs S A SEATON: Chairperson, can the hon Minister tell us what example is made of these people? Besides the fact that they are going to be tried, etc, what example is made of people who do things like these to members of staff that are assisting them in the prison system? How do other inmates get to know what you are going to do about such a situation?

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Seaton, you really are putting me in trouble now. But I do know for a fact that, first of all, we get the police to charge them. Secondly, we ask the judge – because we have the Inspecting Judge – if this particular offender who has created this havoc can be isolated. We can’t just isolate them without getting that permission.

Also, concerning the issue of putting them in handcuffs and in footcuffs, we have to ask the judge. I don’t want a situation where my members take the law into their own hands. That’s not what we want. But we want to make sure that we send a strong message to offenders that this type of behaviour will not be tolerated at all.

Therefore, they go through the courts and get sentenced and we send them to wherever we have to send them. But there should be no assault from anybody for whatever crime has been committed; we can’t afford that. We’ve to run these prisons in a much more humane way, as much as we can.

                      SUSPENSION OF RULE 253(1)

                         (Draft Resolution)

The ACTING CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move:

That Rule 253(1), which provides inter alia that the debate on the Second Reading of a Bill may not commence before at least three working days have elapsed since the committee’s report was tabled, be suspended for the purposes of conducting the Second Reading debate on the South African Airways Bill [B 35 - 2006] (National Assembly – sec 75) on Thursday, 1 March 2007.

Agreed to.

                            FINANCE BILL


                           (Introduction)

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson, in terms of section 213 of the Constitution, the withdrawal of money from the National Revenue Fund as a direct charge must be provided for in an Act of Parliament – this is the story we were talking about with the Minister of Correctional Services.

In terms of section 77, read with section 73, a Bill that authorises a direct charge is a money Bill that must be introduced by the Minister of Finance. The Standing Committee on Public Accounts recommended that Parliament approves certain unauthorised expenditure arising from the 1993- 94 fiscal year, right up to 2003-04 year, as a direct charge against the National Revenue Fund. The Finance Bill before the House represents this Act of Parliament and approves an amount of R473,1 million of unauthorised expenditure, giving effect to Scopa’s recommendation.

I hereby table the Finance Bill, Bill 5 of 2007. Thank you. [Applause.]

The Minister of Finance introduced the Bill.

Bill referred to the Portfolio Committee on Finance for consideration and report.

                      DIVISION OF REVENUE BILL


                       (Second Reading debate)

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson, hon members, section 214 of the Constitution requires that the government ensures a transparent and equitable system to divide nationally raised revenue between the three spheres. The Constitution also enjoins our three spheres of government to co-operate.

The Division of Revenue Bill we tabled in this House last Wednesday is an expression of the co-operative relations between the three spheres of government. By setting out three allocations for the equitable shares and conditional grants for provinces and local government, the Division of Revenue Bill further entrenches the transparency and accountability in our intergovernmental fiscal system.

It allows all spheres to plan ahead and get down to the business of delivering services to our people. Provinces and municipalities will budget for these allocations, each determining how its share of funds will be used to give effect to the policy priorities that have been agreed on through the Minmecs, the Budget Council, the Budget Forum and the extended Cabinet.

From 1 March of last year, our country’s municipal and provincial boundaries were redemarcated. The resource allocation aspect of these changes were introduced in the municipalities from 1 July of last year, while the changes for provinces will only take effect from 1 April this year.

I am pleased to advise this House that all allocations contained in the 2007 Division of Revenue Bill have been determined on the basis of the new boundaries. The division of revenue set out in this year’s Bill gives further impetus to accelerating economic growth, modernising our public services and infrastructure, and reducing poverty and inequality.

The Budget framework allocates R89,5 billion in additional spending over the next three years. National departments will receive R32,3 billion of this, provinces R39,2 billion, and municipalities R18,1 billion.

True to our commitment to fighting poverty and vulnerability, the shares of provincial and local government rise by one percentage point each over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework period. Schedule 1 of the Bill provides the summary of the allocation of funds for the three spheres. After setting aside R52,9 billion for debt service costs, this Bill allocates R289 billion to national departments and their agencies, R171,3 billion to provinces, and R20 billion to local government in the 2007-08 financial year.

Including a contingency reserve of R3 billion, total government spending amounts to R533,9 billion, growing by a whopping 7,7% in real terms to R650,3 last year. Transfers to provinces grow by 12,7% a year, with the bulk of additional resources going towards education and health personnel, social welfare services, and provincial infrastructure. An additional R8,1 billion is allocated for the hiring of teachers, teaching assistants, support staff in schools and districts to improve remuneration levels of teachers.

Together with resources set aside in the provincial equitable share for the implementation of no-fee schools and a substantial increase in resources for classroom building and provision of water, electricity and sanitation in schools, these resources should go a long way to improving the quality of teaching and learning in public schools, where the majority of South African children learn.

This should accelerate the process of closing the gap between spending per learner and spending per learner between private and public schools, thus giving meaning to the theme of this year’s Budget, that human life has equal worth.

Provincial budgets will reinforce the strengthening of the health sectors, so that South Africans who do not have medical insurance can also enjoy good quality health care.

In respect of local government, over the next three years, municipalities will receive R129,2 billion, including R7,4 billion in allocations in kind or an additional R20,4 billion of the 2006 baselines.

The Municipal Infrastructure Grant receives R400 million more to speed up the completion of the eradication of bucket sanitation; a further R600 million for the electrification programme; R1,4 billion for bulk water and sanitation infrastructure, and R950 million to deliver water and electricity to schools and clinics. This was one of the questions asked earlier today.

The public transport infrastructure and systems grants, and the local neighbourhood development partnership grant are allocated R6,7 and R3,7 billion over the 2007 MTEF period.

Turning to the Financial and Fiscal Commission, the division of revenue set out in the Bill before this House today takes account of the recommendations we received from the FFC. The explanatory memorandum to the Bill contains government’s response to the FFC’s recommendations, and this is set out between pages 53 and 90 of the Division of Revenue Bill.

As the response indicates, we are in broad agreement with most of the recommendations that are contained in the FFC’s original submission. The differences are, firstly, in the proposal from the FFC that we roll the Hospital Revitalisation Grant into the Infrastructure Grant for Provinces. We respectfully disagree with this proposal, because we would like to maintain the momentum that the Hospital Revitalisation Programme has gathered to date.

Secondly, the FFC proposes that we merge the Land Care Grants and the Comprehensive Agricultural Support Programme. Again, we respectfully disagree with the FFC in this regard, because we are of the view that the two grants serve very different purposes. The Land Care Grant funds land rehabilitation and restoration, while CASP provides targeted support to beneficiaries of the Redistribution for Agricultural Development Programme. In their submission to the Portfolio Committee on Finance on 22 February, the FFC tabled an entirely new proposal suggesting, and I quote, that our:

… economic assumptions … verified by an independent, competent public authority.

Because this proposal was not part of the original submission, we have not had the opportunity to comment on or respond to it until now. Without derogating from the constitutional independence of the FFC … [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Hon Minister, just a minute. Hon members, I think the level of noise is now getting out of order. We are no longer listening to what the Minister is trying to say.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: I think hon Mabe will be speaking as well, so …

Without derogating from the constitutional independence of the FFC, we find this proposal particularly problematic. Budget decisions in all modern democracies are intensely politically driven. The macroeconomic assumptions so vital to the construction of the fiscal framework are an integral part of these decisions.

It’s quite hard to contemplate what it means to subject its decisions to the scrutiny of independent, competent public authorities, as the FFC suggests, especially since all parties fight elections for the purpose of being able to advance their policy preferences, and the recognition that this would not be possible unless an elected government could decide on the Budget.

The proposal begs the question: What additional information and capacity will such independent, competent public authority have to produce better quality forecasts than government has? Moreover, is government not a public authority elected for this purpose?

Perhaps the view of the FFC is that whilst government might be a public authority, it’s not competent to take responsibility for its macroeconomic assumptions. Perhaps the view may exist that whilst government is a public authority, and whilst it may even be competent, economic decisions need to be taken by political eunuchs.

It is possible to give all manner of interpretation to this new proposal from the FFC. It is government’s view that this submission is incorrect. I invite this House to support us in rejecting this proposal from the FFC.

On that note, I want to reiterate that the Division of Revenue Bill before this House places us in a better position to do things that we never imagined possible a decade ago. On Friday last week, we launched the second discussion paper on social security and retirement reform at the Nedlac offices in Johannesburg. In it, we set out our thoughts on how we’d like to see the social security system unfold in the period ahead.

I invite members of this House to study these proposals, which can be found on the website of the National Treasury. These proposals are about providing for our people, post-retirement.

Again, we say: Human life has equal worth, and you will find the measure of this in the Division of Revenue Bill that serves before this House. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Mr N M NENE: Chairperson and hon members of this House, on the occasion of the tabling of the Budget last week, I was intimidated by the Minister of Finance when he mentioned the aggregated budget over the coming Medium-Term Expenditure Framework period. I am still struggling to explain to my constituency in the small town of Kranskop how much two trillion is, let alone translate it into isiZulu. [Interjections.] No, there are no noughts in isiZulu.

Uzongisiza baba uSkosana siyibhale phansi. [Hon Skosana will help me write it down.]

The Division of Revenue Bill is a constitutional requirement that presents us with the opportunity to, at least, address ourselves to the coming financial year’s Budget, as it is vertically allocated to the three spheres of government. This Bill is a culmination of a lengthy process of consultation amongst these spheres of government co-ordinated by the Ministry of Finance. I refer here to the Budget Council, the Budget Forum meetings of the national departments and other forums that the Minister has alluded to that include all stakeholders in the Budget process.

This process gives effect to one of the key pillars of the Reconstruction and Development Programme – that of democratising society and the state. The RDP is at the centre of the ANC-led government’s agenda to fight poverty and bring about sustainable development. Both the January 8 Statement and the state of the nation address enjoin all three state organs and society to benchmark all our programmes against the RDP, as is evident in this Division of Revenue Bill. The equitable division of revenue amongst the three spheres of government is also premised on one of the main pillars of the RDP - that of meeting the basic needs of the people.

Chapter 8 of the 2007 Budget Review outlines the shift that reflects a significant increase in the allocation to local government and provincial governments, that sees more than 60% of additional allocations transferred to these spheres. This is in line with the continuing trend of ensuring that more funding is deployed where actual delivery needs to take place – that is, at local and provincial government levels. Local government’s share of national revenue shows the strongest growth, of 19%, over the MTEF period, according to this chapter, mainly to support the roll-out of free basic services and infrastructure; while national and provincial shares grow by 10,3% and 12,7% respectively. The provincial allocations mainly cater for the acceleration of social services, with a particular focus on housing, education, HIV and Aids, hospital revitalisation and public transport.

Lokhu kuzibophezela kukahulumeni oholwa uKhongolose ekwenzeni izimpilo zabantu bonke zibe ngcono kubonakala ngokusobala kulesi Sabiwomali, ikakhulu lapho seyabiwa ngezigaba zohulumeni ngokwehlukana kwabo. Bheka ngoba umthamo uya ngokuya ukhula ezifundeni nasezifundazweni lapho umsebenzi wokuthuthukisa izimpilo zabantu ukhona.

Ukwakhiwa kwezingqalasizinda kungumgogodla ekuxosheni ikati eziko kanti futhi kuyisisekelo sokuthuthukisa umnotho ezindaweni zethu. Lokhu kwabiwa kwezimali ezifundazweni, kuphinde futhi kubhekele ubuhlwempu nokusilela emuva kulezi zifundazwe ngenhloso yokuzama ukulinganisa izimpilo zabantu.

Ukulethwa kwezidingongqangi zabantu nakho futhi kuthola umthamo othe xaxa ezindaweni lezo ezisilele emuva kakhulu. Mangikusho lapha, Somlomo, ukuthi mhlawumbe umuntu kufanele avumelane nobaba uMpontshane maqondana nokuthi, ekulethweni kwezidingo zabantu, amanzi, ugesi nokuqedwa kokusetshenziswa kwamabhakede, kufanele sengeze ukuze kuqedwe lesi simo. [Ubuwelewele.] Cha, siyavumelana. Asijwayele ukuvumelana kodwa siyavumelana nobaba uMpontshane. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[The commitment of the ANC-led government to make better life for all is clearly evident in this Budget, especially when it is distributed to different spheres of government. The larger portion of the amount is gradually directed to the provinces and the local governments where the work of making people’s lives better is.

The building of infrastructure is core in getting rid of hunger and it is the foundation of economic development in our places. This distribution of revenue to provinces sees to it that poverty and backwardness in provinces are addressed with the aim of uplifting the lives of the people.

The delivery of services to the people also receives a larger amount to those areas that are far behind with development. Let me say here, Madam Speaker, that maybe one must agree with hon Mpontshane that we need to work a little harder in delivering services like water, electricity and the eradication of the bucket system. More should be done to do away with this situation. [Interjections.] No, we agree. We are not used to agreeing, but we agree with hon Mpontshane.]

We are always warned by the defenders of apartheid that we should not blame our backlogs on apartheid. But it is not possible to forget that had apartheid not excluded the vast majority of our people from the provision of basic services, we would not be talking about it today. The resources that are being spent on addressing the backlogs would have been used in maintaining the infrastructure instead of building it. Thanks go to the people of South Africa for realising that only the ANC could deliver them from the evils of apartheid, and our resolve to do so is growing stronger by the day.

One of the flagship programmes that receives a sizeable chunk of funding is the neighbourhood development partnership. This grant provides financial assistance to municipalities for partnership-based community and commercial infrastructure in townships and informal settlements. Its main focus is on precinct, town centre and high street development projects with an estimated project value of over R9,2 billion over the next decade. As explained in the Budget Review, it supports the creation of high-quality development that aims to overcome spatial and economic distortions endemic to townships.

The principle here is to retain and increase the buying power within townships, and create environments that improve the quality of life and attract private sector investment. In his speech, the Minister mentioned the areas that have taken advantage of this programme, taking up an amount of about R50 million in technical assistance to date.

A number of other grants are allocated to provincial and local governments to further strengthen and enhance service delivery in these spheres. Of particular note to provinces, is the Community Library Services Grant, which is meant to consolidate library services at provincial level. We trust that this grant will be put to good use, and promote the culture of reading, especially if library services are going to be located where the majority of the people live, and be properly and adequately resourced.

My colleagues will speak on the other grant allocations and the Financial and Fiscal Commission’s recommendations. Minister, I trust that Ms Mabe will cover that area that you raised as a concern. Ms Mokoto will focus on the 2010 Fifa World Cup, related funding and the capacity-building transfers. Ms Mabe will also have to cover the expenditure trends in provinces and our oversight role as Parliament.

The ANC government’s commitment to achieving a better life for all is a matter of policy, and not grandstanding, as colleagues on the other side of the iron always make it. It dates back to our founding, and our record speaks for itself.

The committee considered the Division of Revenue Bill and passed it without amendments. We trust that the Select Committee on Finance will apply its mind without prejudice, and with the information at their disposal. They are under no obligation to endorse our position. If it is in the interest of the country, they have every right to propose amendments. The ANC supports the passing of the Division of Revenue Bill in this House. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr I O DAVIDSON: Chair, the Financial and Fiscal Commission is required by both the Constitution and the Intergovernmental Fiscal Relations Act to give comment on government’s annual Division of Revenue Bill. The Intergovernmental Fiscal Relations Act also requires the Minister of Finance to consult with the commission prior to the introduction of the Division of Revenue Bill. In preparing its commentary on the Division of Revenue Bill, the commission assesses and analyses the equitable allocation of revenue amongst the three spheres, and horizontally within each sphere of government, taking into account key principles of intergovernmental fiscal relations in South Africa.

The commission’s overall finding is that it is in agreement with the general spirit in which the 2007-08 Division of Revenue Bill has been drafted, a view which the DA endorses. In its commentary, the commission makes submissions on the macroeconomic implications of the division of revenue proposals. It is these submissions that I would like to further comment on. It is correctly stated that the Bill is premised on important economic assumptions that underpin the macroeconomic projections used to determine the overall resource envelope underlying the Bill. What is referred to here is a set of macroeconomic forecasts which will determine the value of important fiscal variables. As we are all aware, very often market outcomes will deviate from the forecasts, resulting in - as you have seen over the last three years - substantial budget revenue overruns. These overruns have been increasing from R11,6 billion for the 2004-05 financial year to R44,5 billion for 2005-06, and an estimated R32,8 billion for 2006-07. If prior estimations are anything to go by, it would not surprise me if the final figure for 2006-07 is even higher.

Now, I am aware that tax revenue buoyancy is primarily a factor of new revenue resources, improvements in tax administration compliance in collection and, importantly, higher nominal gross domestic product. I am also aware that Treasury has determined the average responsiveness of gross tax revenue to changes in nominal GDP.

Without detracting from the efficiency of Sars, it is the accuracy of the forecasting of nominal GDP which perhaps bears closer scrutiny. The overruns have not escaped the attention of the International Monetary Fund, which has in the past expressed concerns about “the repeated underestimation of tax revenues”. The IMF said in 2005 that overruns needed:

… careful investigation, possibly leading to adjustments in revenue forecasting methods and procedures. Reliable revenue projections are particularly important for the design of credible medium-term expenditure plans.

In a written response to the IMF’s concerns, the Treasury said it agreed that its revenue forecasting should be improved, and yet, as we have noted since then, the overruns remain indeed increased in size.

It is with these points in mind that the commission’s recommendation of independent verification of underlying macroeconomic assumptions – not policy assumptions, the Minister is quite right in respect of policy assumptions, that is a preserve of the ruling government – cannot be dismissed lightly. Likewise their recommendation that this process be institutionalised, which they are correct in saying, would raise even further the transparency and credibility of the forecasts moving forward.

Following on the whole question of revenue overruns is a related matter of the ratio of revenue to domestic product. This ratio, as the commission points out, is expected to be as high as 28,2%. Now, the commission raises a pertinent question as to whether the tax burden is too high and therefore, as it puts it, inimical to economic growth.

Now, it is not my intention to debate here any of the levels of taxation or recent changes to these levels, or the nature of such changes announced by the Minister in his recent Budget Speech. That could possibly be dealt with in the Budget debate. Where I do seek clarity is on the government’s policy or philosophy in respect of the whole question of taxation. So, it is not the technicalities of the tax numbers that we need to hear, but rather the underlying philosophy.

Leading on from that, I am not aware of what informed the often-quoted benchmark of 25% revenue to GDP as being the optimal desired percentage revenue burden. This is a figure that Treasury itself has often mentioned. Is this still appropriate? If not, what informs government’s thinking as to the change? As indicated, the ratio is now well beyond that figure, and that is even before the imposition of the royalty tax, as well as any windfall tax on the synthetic fuels industry or on the mineral resource industry as a whole.

I have to identify with the sentiment of the commission expressed, namely that policy choices should be informed not only by up-to-date needs and the capacity of the economy, but by international benchmarking experience. Surely there has to be a case against ad hoc changes to the fiscal regime in favour of the certainty of a stated policy or philosophy by government which, barring exogenous shocks, would be implemented by government over a stated timeframe and under certain conditions. Surely it is this certainty that will help produce a positive climate for investment.

Finally, I would like to mention two specific comments which the commission made, which I find myself in agreement with. The first is in respect of the Municipal Infrastructure Grant where it recommended that the formula be reviewed to take into account the operational and maintenance needs of infrastructure roll-out.

While it is accepted in principle that municipalities, in line with section 17(2) of Municipal Finance Management Act, should fund the maintenance and operations from their own budgets, the reality is that some municipalities just do not have sufficient resources to do so. I am reliably informed by officials in the programme that this often results in costly projects degenerating into all but unusable condition as a result of the reality of a lack of sufficient resources for operations and maintenance.

Secondly, and briefly, in respect of the national housing allocation, the commission proposed that the formula should take into account the variations in regional costs for constructing subsidised housing, and ensuring uniform standards across the provinces.

While I appreciate the government’s desire not to unduly further complicate the formula, it has to be acknowledged that the recommendation stems from the significant impact that variations in regional costs have on the quality, completion and lifespan of the government-subsidised houses, not least of which is the cost of land which differs significantly across regions.

The resulting implication is that the cost of meeting the same quality and the standards set out by the national Department of Housing can differ greatly, depending on the location of the housing project. Notwithstanding, the DA supports the Bill. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr H J BEKKER: Madam Chair, the 2007 Division of Revenue Bill provides for the equitable division of nationally-raised revenue between the three spheres of government. This year the amount to be shared between national, provincial and local governments amounts to R480 billion. In the 2007-08 financial year, a total amount of R202 billion consisting of the equitable share and conditional grants will be transferred to the nine provinces to meet their expenditure responsibilities. Local government will receive R34 billion in this financial year to improve their delivery of basic services such as water, sanitation, roads and infrastructure.

The Minister has indicated that the National Treasury has not accepted certain Financial and Fiscal Commission recommendations about conditional grants to provincial and local government. For instance, the FFC wanted the Land Care Grant and the Comprehensive Agricultural Support Grant to be placed together to lessen the administrative workload for the provinces, but Treasury disagreed. Other grants that were the subject of disagreement included the Municipal Infrastructure Grant and the National Human Settlement Grant.

The IFP accepts that, from time to time, there will be disagreements between the FFC and the government. But, considering the vital role played by this institution, the FFC, we have to raise concern that it could be sidelined if care is not taken.

Faster than expected, national economic growth in the last few years and better tax collection have meant that the Minister of Finance is in the fortunate position of having a larger revenue cake to slice up between the three spheres of government. However, the availability of money to allocate is no longer the main problem. The main problem now is the ability of provincial and local governments to spend their allocations for the provision of basic services, infrastructure and other essential functions.

Over the past few weeks Parliament has heard that the third quarter spending in the 2006-07 financial year by provincial departments is lagging behind target. For instance, provincial departments of public works and transport had spent 63% of their allocations by the end of the third quarter.

Even more worrying is the fact that local governments are even worse off in terms of their ability to spend the allocated grants. For instance, municipalities were able to spend only 46% of total municipal infrastructure grants in the first three quarters of the current financial year. In total, some 106 municipalities or about one-third have been classified as underspenders. Therefore, the IFP welcomes the actions of the Department of Provincial and Local Government to delay payments to municipalities that are unable to spend their allocations. Even more so, the IFP applauds the fact that such allocations may, in fact, be cancelled and diverted to local governments that have the ability to spend it.

The IFP supports the Division of Revenue Bill. But, we stress that allocating money is one thing, efficiently spending it on projects that address the needs of the poorest communities is a completely different animal. We need more interventions from the relevant authorities to ensure that spending is stepped up and we need closer monitoring to ensure that allocations are in fact translated into basic services, improved infrastructure and other improvements in people’s daily lives. The IFP supports the Budget. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr J BICI: Madam Chair, hon members, the UDM would like to take this opportunity to congratulate the Minister of Finance on a good national Budget made possible by revenue collection again exceeding forecast. The UDM is pleased with the salary increase for teachers, medical workers, social workers and Police Service members. They are the backbone of building a caring and democratic society.

The social grant increase is welcomed, though it is relatively small. We believe that, with the better than the expected revenue at its disposal, the government should show its commitment to the fight against HIV/Aids by lowering the threshold for ARV treatment. For instance, by commencing treatment at a higher CD4 count than currently is the case would mean we would be saving more lives by providing treatment at an early age.

Notwithstanding the good intentions of the national Budget, we are concerned about the ability of departments, provinces and local governments to spend money correctly. These capacity and management shortfalls are significant and have the perverse effect that big budgets are promised but often little delivery occurs.

The Division of Revenue correctly seeks to distribute the bulk of revenue to the lower spheres of government. However, their capacity to correctly utilise this revenue remains suspect. The array of grants and conditional grants earmarking infrastructure development of some sort or another are welcomed and should go a long way towards addressing the grievances of those neglected communities who now resort to protest and unrest to draw attention to their plight. Nevertheless, the UDM supports the Bill. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr A HARDING: Madam Chair, consolidated non-interest expenditure by all spheres is set to increase at an annual nominal average rate of 11,9% over the next three years or 6,2% in real terms. Social services expenditure is set to increase at an annual average real rate of 6% over the next three years. Social expenditure therefore increases at a faster rate than expected GDP growth. Given the huge resources now at the government’s disposal and the increase in the tax to GDP ratio, this is not surprising. However, social expenditure grows at a slightly lower rate than total government expenditure. This, to the ID, indicates a subtle shift from social towards the economic function of the MTEF period.

The new year budget allocation to national departments represents the largest share of the national Budget. Subnational governments will collectively receive the larger share of additional resources in the consecutive two years. This raises serious questions, in light of local and provincial government spending ability.

The provincial equitable share is projected to grow by a real annual average rate which is slightly higher than forecasted economic growth rates over that period. This raises possible future funding questions for the Minister or alternatively an adjustment in allocations.

The emphasis in the Minister’s speech as well as in the Budget Review is on fostering growth while remaining aware of the risks associated with increased integration in a global economy. However, the ID would have welcomed a more robust increase in social services expenditure but with specific emphasis on the social grant. There is no doubt that savings to fund investment are required and that the government savings are but only one way of achieving this. It remains imperative to balance long-term investment needs with measures which soften the impact of poverty now.

In the final analysis, much rests with the validity of how policy-makers currently assess risk and therefore what constitutes due prudence. It is hoped that, in looking back from the future, it will not be decided that the actions taken were not bold enough. The ID supports the Bill. [Time expired.]

Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, hon Minister, you will recall that last year the ACDP raised the issue as to whether the equitable share formula had been realigned, following the redemarcation of provincial boundaries. As pointed out in the 2007 Budget Review, the demarcation affects education, health, poverty and economic activity components of the formula.

The ACDP welcomes changes to the provincial equitable shares implemented in the 2007 Budget as this will undoubtedly allay fears regarding service delivery to those communities whose municipalities have been moved from one province to another. Provinces are preparing their 2007 budgets based on the realigned provincial equitable shares. Hon Minister, are you expecting any further adjustments to be made? Is it expected that there will be additional costs and if so, will they be substantial?

The FFC proposed that:

Any additional costs faced by the provinces and municipalities that cannot be met through the revised equitable share allocations be funded through a once-off allocation from national government.

The government’s response to that proposal was that, “no additional allocations were made to the local government sphere”, whilst provinces “may be able to absorb any additional costs that arise through the demarcation”. Is this fair, and should the additional costs, if any, not have been funded by national governments, or is this a contingency included in the increased allocations to provinces?

Notwithstanding the above, the ACDP wishes to commend the Minister and the Treasury. We support this Bill. I thank you.

Ms N R MOKOTO: Madam Chairperson, hon Minister of Finance, hon members and members of the public, when the ANC leadership, together with its alliance partners, took a conscious decision that it will engage in multiparty talks with the apartheid regime to prepare for the democratisation of the country and to eventually contest the elections, it was propelled by the need to deliver a better life for all South Africans and the great saying that:

None of the great social problems we have to solve is capable of resolution outside the context of the creation of jobs, the alleviation, and the eradication of poverty; and therefore, the struggle to eradicate poverty has been and will continue to be a central part of the national effort to build a new South Africa, where all human life is equal.

Our historic decision and the subsequent ascendance of the ANC to power has consistently derived its importance from the reality that it will impact significantly on the current situation and the future of our country and its people. In 2005, at its national general council held in Tshwane, the ANC sincerely declared that South Africa had reached a new phase of the national democratic revolution. This has, therefore. meant that the consolidation of political democracy, the growing electoral strength of and the support for our movement, and the relative stabilisation of our economy have created a new set of opportunities and challenges for social transformation.

Indeed, as the ANC, we have no other option but to agree with the hon Minister of Finance, Minister Trevor Manuel, when he expressly said: “In the spirit of the Freedom Charter, people’s lives hold equal value”. For the past six years, our economy has recorded a steady growth and wellbeing, when compared to other economies around the world.

Our current budget has increased significantly since the 2004-05 financial year, and it has continued to do so at a very exceptional rate. This has paved ways for a phenomenal increase on the additional allocations expected to remain at R89,5 billion over the medium-term. The additional allocation arose as a result of major savings on the government expenditure and a savings on the interest accumulated as a result of the low cost of servicing debt.

It is important to note that the additional allocations are appropriated for focused government programme areas within departments and other layers of government only serve to augment the already existing allocations provided in the main Budget. The additional allocations will, therefore, address identified priorities for the government at a specified time.

We are, however, of the view that the allocations cannot be used to substitute any form of revenue collection, especially in municipalities, an exercise which still remains a dilemma for many of our municipalities which still struggle to collect own revenue for self-sustenance.

I want to highlight that our government has now been provided with renewed impetus and possibilities to introduce accelerated growth, broad-based development with more emphasis on key government priorities like social services, education, health, crime prevention, public sector, infrastructure, and the much-awaited 2010 Fifa World Cup tournament.

As the ANC, we will continue to acknowledge the fact that the rapid growth in the budgeted expenditure does pose a challenge with regard to the capacity to utilise these amounts, particularly in the municipalities and within certain departments, at both national and provincial levels. Government spending patterns in most instances leaves too much to be desired. As part of exercising our oversight roles as parliamentarians, we have to ensure that in all, the government fully accounts on the mandate of the people. It is important to highlight that this kind of mannerism, which is gradually becoming a norm, can neither be tolerated nor condoned as it continuously compromises service delivery to our people, as a consequence of insufficient and untimely planning by certain senior managers in the government.

However, regarding the situation, we have to acknowledge that real spending on capital expenditure in proportion to the unspent capital funds dropped by 8% in 2005-06 financial year from 14% in the previous financial year. Despite this drop, we expect a much higher rate of underspending in 2006-07 financial year.

As Members of Parliament, we have taken note of the levels of seriousness with which the government is tackling this matter. It is the view of the ANC that the Siyenzamanje and Project Consolidate intervention programmes jointly run by the Development Bank of South Africa and national government in several municipalities around the country are surely and gradually emitting positive results for the many municipalities that previously suffered serious scarce skills shortage.

It has taken us more than a century to convince the world what a great potential Africa holds. The initial allocations of R4,1 billion made for the 2010 Fifa World Cup further increased with an additional of R13,3 billion for the building of stadiums and associated infrastructure. The government, through this generous appropriation for the Fifa World Cup, has fully reasserted its position and commitment towards the successful holding of this tournament in a manner which was not anticipated.

We are greatly encouraged by the positive spin-offs that will arise as a result of hosting the 2010 Fifa World Cup tournament. These benefits will surely have an immense impact on the economic growth, job creation, youth development, tourism and skills development in the country. This will produce further ripple effects for the rest of the African continent.

As seasoned revolutionaries, we wish to declare that the age of hope shall never leave our people or our continent. The ANC supports the Budget Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr I S MFUNDISI: Chairperson and hon members, the Budget tabled before this Parliament addresses the needs and concerns of a human being. The hon Minister was spot-on to stress that …

… motho ke motho ga a na bosetlhana.[… a human being is a human being, there is no lesser human being.]

A human being is a human being. There is no lesser human being; whether rich or poor, black or white, local citizen or alien, we all have common needs. We, in the UCDP, have this philosophy … rata motho, tlotla motho, direla motho, rerisa motho, itshokele motho … [love, respect, serve, inform and be patient to a person]

… thereby meaning love, respect, serve, consult and be tolerant to a human being. That is the legacy we left where we governed. To us, this Budget does exactly that: for love, it shows how much it cares through the social grants, more allocations for education; for respect, it shows that the Minister listened and showed respect for the views of the people on their concerns about crime, hence resources have been poured into the protection services; for service to the people, the amount thrown into the Fifa World Cup attests to this; and for consulting people, Trevor’s Tips are testimony that … motho ke motho ga a na bosetlhana [a human being is a human being, there is no lesser human being …] and even concerning issues that the Minister is hard put to handling such as lobola, he has declared that he will consult further.

The tolerant nature of the Budget is displayed in the pains taken to address the question of pensions to avoid the situation where people work for the better part of their active years of life, but retire and go into poverty. The reforms proposed by this Budget would benefit the people, who would otherwise have had no access to cost- effective retirement benefits and eliminate unnecessary hardships among their families.

The cherry on top in this Budget is the fact that the government has come to its senses by introducing bursaries for those who want to train as teachers. The vast amount set aside for education is a clear example that the government accepts that liberation without education is worthless. From this exercise, we hope to have people who will have the necessary skills and manage the booming economy of this country. We only hope that government departments will use this money profitably. Thank you. [Time expired.]

Mr M T LIKOTSI: Chairperson, the PAC wishes to acknowledge the challenging task done by the Minister of Finance, the Treasury and the portfolio committee in drafting the Bill before us. We hope the three spheres of government, as beneficiaries, will prudently utilise their budget to address the issue of poor service delivery and other related matters.

The PAC wishes to advise the Minister to exercise a firm hand and an iron fist in the monitoring of the fiscals to prevent underspending and roll- overs by provinces, municipalities and some national departments. Our people must not languish in poverty, disease, and suffer due to poor service delivery owing to inefficiency of provinces, municipalities and some national departments. The target set to eradicate the bucket system, the supply of water and electricity to all must be realised. This may only be achieved if proper monitoring and control mechanisms are put in place. Our people were promised free basic services, and that must not be compromised by incapable and inefficient provinces, councillors and national departments.

The PAC, further, could not understand why Mangaung local municipality is deprived of the status of a Metro. It is 13 years into our fledging democracy, and one of the most significant cities of our country is still struggling to become a Metro due to unnecessary bureaucracy. A political decision must be taken for this to happen as early as possible.

The PAC wishes to draw your attention to the most poor and disadvantaged rural areas such as the Greater Sekhukhune in Limpopo, KwaZulu-Natal, and the Eastern Cape when the revenue is shared. These provinces are at the receiving end when it comes to issues related to provision of infrastructure of all sorts, water, electricity, housing and sanitation.

The provinces without world-ranking stadiums must be attended to in the future, as they are to lose a lot of revenue when projects such as the 2010 Fifa World Cup are staged in our country. The PAC supports the Bill.

Ms S RAJBALLY: Madam Chair, Minister, the Division of Revenue Bill is anxiously awaited annually as it clearly indicates government’s intentions and commitments to manage South Africa efficiently and rescue it from the shackles of poverty. For that, hon Minister, we thank you very much.

We note minor changes to the percentage allocated to national, provincial and local spheres of government. In view of the provincial allocation for 2007-08 we are pleased to see the 21,64% made to KwaZulu-Natal. Noting the large population and challenges in this province, these funds need to be effectively utilised to rescue its residents from poverty-stricken lives and develop the province into a promising democracy. We further trust that these funds shall find their way to establishing better schooling, health facilities and transport.

The MF has expressed its concern over the crime situation. Funds need to be speedily made available to equip our SAPS with the necessary resources, personnel and training to address crime. Our commitment to supply electricity to every household, provide proper sanitation and potable water is crucial for better living. We have also had a budget that clearly spelt out government’s commitment. We hope that this year’s Budget is one of commitment to delivery.

The MF, however, has a concern regarding the targets we set for government that give us directions and supply us with instruments to measure progress and shortfalls. Our concern is the growth of needs and whether our output to overcome the needs is sizeable enough to conquer the challenge. The MF supports the Division of Revenue Bill.

Mr S SIMMONS: Madam Chair, the UPSA supports and commends the hon Minister’s Finance Bill. The success of the hon Minister and his department has become a cornerstone of government’s achievements, of late.

Die sukses en effektiewe fiskale dissipline gehandhaaf deur die Departement van Finansies is alombekend. Die agb Minister het heelwat politieke wil openbaar met sy toegewing ten opsigte van fondse vir die uitbreiding van die getal polisielede, asook aanpassing van salarisse vir onderwysers.

Die UPSA is egter van mening dat hierdie stappe, alhoewel welkom, nie naastenby die probleme van misdaadoplossing en verbeterde onderwys aanspreek nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[The success and effective fiscal discipline maintained by the Department of Finance is widely recognised. The hon Minister displayed a great deal of political will with his concession with regard to funds for the increase in the number of members in the Police Service, as well as adjustments to teachers’ salaries.

However, the UPSA is of the opinion that these steps, although welcome, do not adequately deal with the problems of solving crime and of improving education.]

The UPSA is of the opinion that greater emphasis should have been put on the improvement of the competency levels of serving SAPS members and teachers. This would culminate in SAPS members who are better equipped to deal with criminals, and deliver the required levels of service to the general public. So, too, should teachers face up to the challenges in our schools. This action would be further justified by the handsome surplus announced.

The principle of greater emphasis on the training of serving public servants should be extended to almost all areas of the public sector to improve the general level of service delivery. We trust that this matter of training serving public servants will continue to enjoy the hon Minister’s attention.

Once more, the UPSA supports the Bill. I thank you.

Mr C M MORKEL: Madam Chair, Minister, hon members, if we all accept that human life has equal worth, as the Minister quoted Will Hutton in his Budget Speech this year, and that we need to deepen the debate that will result in the improved implementation of government programmes - programmes that will ultimately deliver sustainable democracy and development - then the sum total of the Budget and its component parts would need to be interrogated so that we can establish whether the expectations of those of us who want to see a South Africa that we can all be proud of are being met.

The President’s state of the nation address and the Minister of Finance‘s Budget Speech set government’s agenda, an agenda for debate and delivery. How the rest of us in Parliament therefore participate in this broader debate within each portfolio committee will determine the depth of the debate and whether we can in fact influence government’s agenda for the next financial year.

How we achieve national consensus, as the President recently encouraged us, will be determined by mostly the attitude and tone of the words not lightly spoken in this Chamber and in the portfolio committees. If we do not use these opportunities and approach them by making progressive proposals, but simply use them in an attempt to embarrass one another and polarise voters, then we will not listen to one another and will lose the opportunity to really get to know one another.

The debate will, to a large extent, be influenced and informed by the Community Survey 2007, which will focus on 280 000 households and give them the opportunity to have their living standards measured. With this ideological diagnostic data, we must then find consensus on at least the three topics the President highlighted in his state of the nation address, social cohesion, poverty alleviation and crime prevention and its eradication.

The PIM, therefore, looks forward to our joint efforts to influence government so that we can affirm and express the idea that human life has equal worth and human beings are equally entitled to political, economic and social right, which allow them to choose a life they have reason to live. I thank you.

                      DIVISION OF REVENUE BILL


                       (Second Reading debate)

Ms L L MABE: Chairperson, the ANC would like to congratulate the hon Minister on the Budget that he has presented to this House. We would also like to encourage him to do more than what he has done, and that includes other institutions such as SA Revenue Service, which we would like to encourage to collect more, on behalf of this country.

Chairperson, I am going to focus on the Financial and Fiscal Commission recommendations, but I will only give examples. I just want to remind this House that the FFC is an independent authority. It makes recommendations to government, and then government, in its response during the budget presentation, responds to the FFC either by agreeing or disagreeing with the proposals of the FFC. But if the government disagrees with those proposals, it gives reasons why they are not accepted. If they will be considered in future, government states clearly that those proposals will be considered in future. I wanted to clarify this one so that, as I continue with my presentation, all of us will be moving at the same pace.

I would also like to indicate that we appreciate that relationship that the FFC has with national government, in terms of the proposals that it makes. We would also like to indicate to the FFC that they must continue engaging with the portfolio committees, the select Committee and the Joint Budget Committee.

We cannot respond to what has not been presented before the three committees or until it appears before the three committees. In this case I am referring to the independent public authority that was suggested or proposed by the FFC. We will consider it in the committee and, for now, we do not have any comment on that authority. Especially because the more institutions we create as government, the more problems we have in terms of how those institutions carry out their mandate and how they spend money, for example, the Sector Education and Training Authorities that we have at the moment.

I would like to comment on the Hospital Revitalisation Grant. We fully agree that the grant should not be included in that provincial infrastructure grant, because it will not achieve the intended national priorities. In this instance, I would give an example of what happens in Moses Kotane. For the first time, we have two hospitals running at the same time - one in Mabeskraal and the other in Ledig. They were constructed at the same time, and this is unprecedented. I would want to say that if we maintain the separate grants, then we are sure that the provincial government would not take the money that was allocated at national level for the construction of those hospitals and utilise it elsewhere.

I would also refer to the Land Care and Comprehensive Agriculture Support Grant. We support the fact that they cannot be merged because the time is not yet ripe for the two to be merged, and will not be until such time that we are sure that the provinces will utilise the grant for what it is intended for, especially the Land Care and the Comprehensive Agriculture Support Grants. They will lose the meaning if we combine the two before we achieve our objectives.

Regarding the National Housing Allocation, we request National Treasury to consider the fact that construction costs in different provinces and in different municipalities are not the same and it will create problems if allocations are based on particular regional conditions. For example, in Rustenburg the price of building materials is not the same as in Koster, in Kgetleng Municipality. But Kgetleng Municipality orders its building materials from Rustenburg. So, how will you be able to control such price differences? It becomes difficult and that is why, for now, we are saying, let us not allocate according to different regional price fluctuations, because it is going to create serious problems for the municipalities to make proposals or to present estimations to the national government.

Concerning grants in general, we want to make a plea to the national departments: Please use your responsibilities to monitor the grants in the provinces and at local government level. It seems that the national departments are absconding from their responsibility and they are putting the whole responsibility on National Treasury. This is uncalled for, because they are the ones who bid for these grants and receive plans from the provinces and the municipalities.

Therefore, they must take the responsibility to monitor those grants, whether construction is taking place or whether the conditions are being implemented through monthly and quarterly reports.

Unfortunately, some of the national departments do not monitor those grants. They leave the monitoring either to the province or to the National Treasury, whereas they are the ones who dispense. The Division of Revenue Act is clear that the national dispensing departments must monitor and be accountable as accounting officers.

I would also like to indicate that we really appreciate the fact that, over the medium term, allocation for grants will increase to a greater degree. This shows that the government is committed to ensuring that infrastructure development is given priority. But, as I have indicated earlier on, the department must take responsibility because we do not want to see protests from time to time, with people saying there is no delivery on the ground, but where national departments have failed to fulfil their responsibility.

I would like, in this instance, to give an example of the health department. The Auditor-General, in his reports of 2005-06, reported that payments of R1,3 billion were made prior to approval of business plans. How can a national department make divestment to provinces when plans have not yet been approved? At the same time, the Auditor-General raised the fact that the amount of R110 million is more than the amount approved in the individual business plans.

How can you dispense that amount of money without looking at the business plans? The departments cannot expert the National Treasury to come and do monitoring on their behalf. They are the ones who dispense, and they must also be in a position to monitor, and make sure that they guide the provinces.

It is the imperative of the national department to take the initiative concerning intervention measures, because, as a national department, you are the accounting officer and you must ensure that the provinces and local governments utilise funds according to national priorities. Also, regarding quarterly report and quarterly visits, we urge the departments, and we are going to call them at a later stage to find out what they are doing, to monitor on monthly and quarterly bases, to tell us what is happening on the ground, and whether those grants are being utilised for what they are intended, but, at the same time, to know which projects are at a stalemate and which ones are at an advanced stage, and again to know which projects will not be achieved in that particular year. It is important for us to know, as Parliament, but, like I say, we are going to make follow up on such issues during the course of the year.

We would like to welcome the fact that the national government has established an intervention task team, which is referred to as the Infrastructure Delivery Improvement Programme. This intervention strategy is good, in the sense that we have seen a change in spending on infrastructure for education. We have also seen an improvement in housing. Although housing has been one of the victims of underspending in infrastructure, but, at least, for now, for the last three quarters, there has been an improvement in this intervention. That is why we are calling on the national departments to do the same, not to wait for the National Treasury. They must take that initiative.

I would also want to remind this House that the President announced in his state of nation address two years ago that no learner will learn under a tree. That issue has been a concern to us as the ANC, but if it was not because of this intervention, up to now we would still be having question marks of how many classrooms or how many learners are still learning under trees. This intervention has speeded up the process of building more additional classrooms, and, like I say, I presume that it is the same intervention that has improved capital spending in housing.

We would also like to welcome the new grant on community library services. We are a nation that has to learn and read. I thought Minister Pallo Jordan would be here, so that he would be made aware that we are going to have an interest in seeing whether the department has plans. What are they going to do throughout the course of the year to ensure that there will be no fund–shifting at the end of the financial year or that during the MTBPS there shall be no shifting of funds?

We expected that by now they ought to be having plans of how they are going to implement that grant, because people want to consult through using libraries. People want libraries to be up to date in terms of the services they offer to them.

I would also like to finally indicate to the Minister of Finance that today South Africa is financially where nobody ever dreamt it will be. [Applause.] When you took over in 1996, there were Messiahs who could foretell that a Minister from the ANC could not do anything good. And we have proved them wrong. I want to congratulate you and your staff. Even those institutions that are under your administration or your control have done an excellent job. The ANC supports the Bill. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson, I would like to express my appreciation to all parties in the House, because it’s clear that everybody supports the Division of Revenue Bill, but let me deal with some of the issues that have been raised. Firstly, regarding the support expressed by the hon Davidson for an independent body doing the micro forecast, we recently undertook an interesting exercise where we looked at trends in respect of this consensus forecast. There are two groups of consensus forecasts by private sector economists: one is run by Reuters and the other by Beeld.

We looked at our own forecast over the past few years and, just yesterday, the GDP growth for last year was announced as at 5% year on year. The Beeld consensus was 4,05% for last year and the Reuters consensus was 4,05% while ours was 4,9%. In the previous year, where growth was 5,1%, the Beeld consensus was 4,1% and the Reuters was 4,0%. Treasury was marginally better at 4,3% but less strong.

Now, if you go back over the history of the last decade you will find the same trends. I think the observation that we can make is that whilst Treasury may have been wrong, we were significantly less wrong than these consensus forecasts. There is a very important point here, because if you take this responsibility and hand it over, where is responsibility for this vested?

I am saying it’s an intensely political function. We take responsibility; we will stand before this House and debate the issues. But, to hand this thing over to some other institution out there and believe that they would be the determinant of the forecast on which we must put the premise of fiscal framework to allocate resources, is probably taking the economic functions of government into some kind of belief system where you leave it all to automatons. There is no government in the world that operates like that, and that is the first problem I have with it. [Applause.] In respect of the tax to GDP ratio, I would like to leave that and perhaps when we have the Budget debate, we can give a bit more attention to that. Regarding the support expressed, again, by the hon Davidson for the operation and maintenance costs, let’s firstly explain that when we use conditional grants, we use them in order to try and influence another sphere of government in respect of national priorities. Therefore, if you look at the local government and go through the list, you will find that there are grants that would support the eradication of the bucket system, water, sanitation and electricity; and then from the equitable share, financing for free basic services.

If you fail to understand that there are limitations in respect of the different functions, you are running the risk that the hon Mokoto raised, namely that you then open a huge moral hazard, because municipalities don’t have to collect the revenue that they must collect, because somebody else is going to do it for them. Operation and maintenance costs are key to what municipalities ought to do, and whilst it is also something that the national level must do, to do it through conditional grants is not entirely rational.

Regarding the hon Swart and the demarcation, there is an issue that arose in the past few days. As luck would have it, in the area of Moutse which is now part of Limpopo province, somehow there was a miscalculation and teachers have been taxed twice and thus they are in uproar. They believe that you pay more tax in Limpopo. It is something that we will resolve together with the government of Limpopo in the next 48 hours, but these kinds of things happen.

We think that provinces are adequately resourced to deal with the changes. We have calculated this very carefully and we have been in very close consultation with them. So, there are no real additional costs. There is an endeavour to hide costs or to recalibrate the costs in some way where it’s clearly unaffordable, but I think we are on top of that.

About issues raised by the hon Likotsi, monitoring and control are issues that are part of political oversight. Don’t leave it to the Treasury. Our constituency officers should be doing a lot more of this and we must defend the rights and the responsibilities of Members of Parliament to be part of that monitoring and oversight, ensuring that the IDPs are there and are linked to provincial growth and development plans, and that the money is spent as planned.

This Parliament should be a repository of all that information, so that monitoring and evaluation of the money that we allocate would be much better. Democracy would be better served because all Members of Parliament would be involved in the process. Thank you very much for the support from all parties. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill read a second time.

The House adjourned at 18:20. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Introduction of Bill

 (1)    The Minister of Finance


      a) Finance Bill [B 5 - 2007] (National Assembly – proposed sec
         77).


     Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on Finance of
     the National Assembly, as well as referral to the Joint Tagging
     Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint Rule 160.


     In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of
     the Bill may be submitted to the JTM within three parliamentary
     working days.

1. Translation of Bill submitted

   (1) The Minister of Sport and Recreation

   a) Molao o Fetotsweng wa Institjhute ya Afrika Borwa wa Dipapadi
      tse hlokang Dithethefatsi wa 2006 [B 7D – 2006] (National
      Assembly –sec 75).
   

   This is the official translation into Sesotho of the South African Institute for Drug-Free Sport Amendment Bill [B 7 – 2006] (National Assembly – sec 75).

2. Bill passed by Houses – to be submitted to President for assent

   (1) Bill passed by National Council of Provinces on 27 February 2007:

   (a) Transnet Pension Fund Amendment Bill [B 30B – 2006] (National Assembly – sec 75).

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Finance

   a) Government Notice No R.146 published in Government Gazette No 29644 dated 20 February 2007: Amendment of Treasury Regulations in terms of section 76 of the Public Finance Management Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999).

2. The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development

   a) Draft Rules submitted by the Rules Board for Courts of Law, in terms of section 7(2)(c) of the Criminal Procedure Amendment Act, 2003 (Act No 42 of 2003).

   b) Draft Rules submitted by the Rules Board for Courts of Law, in terms of section 79(3) of the Promotion of Access to Information Act, 2000 (Act No 2 of 2000).

National Assembly

1. The Speaker

   a) Request from the Minister of Communications for approval by the National Assembly of the following candidate recommended for appointment to the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa (Icasa) in terms of section 7 of the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa Act, 2000 (Act No 13 of 2000), as amended:

   Dr M Socikwa.

   Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Communications for consideration and report, the committee to report as soon as possible. COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Assembly

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Public Enterprises on the South African Airways Bill [B35-2006] (National Assembly – sec 75), dated 28 February 2007:

   The Portfolio Committee on Public Enterprises, having considered the subject of the South African Airways Bill [B35-2006] (National Assembly- sec 75), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, reports the Bill with Amendments [B35A- 2006].

   The Committee further reports as follows:

   1. The Committee is acutely aware of the financial and other strategic challenges confronting SAA and the need for this Bill.

   2. Consistent with the government’s new emerging shareholder management model and the Committee’s views on this, the Committee decided to effect amendments to the Bill that would provide for:

• A Preamble to convey the sense of SAA as a national carrier and
  strategic asset.
• The strategic role that SAA plays.
           • The need for the Minister to account to Parliament for any
             major changes in SAA’s role and decisions about converting
             SAA into a public company.
    3. The Committee believes that the temperate amendments it proposed
       would not discourage potential investors or unduly bind the
       Minister.


    4. The Minister for Public Enterprises, Mr Alec Erwin, stressed
       that he agrees with the amendments proposed but explained that
       it would be more appropriate to provide for them in the
       forthcoming Shareholder Management Bill.  A key reason for this
       is that the provisions that the Committee wants in regards to
       SAA apply to state-owned entities generally.  In a letter to the
       Committee, the Minister said “….with respect to the
       recommendation to involve Parliament in the decision to convert
       SAA into a public company, the Department is in the process of
       drafting legislation to regulate State-Owned Enterprises (SOE)
       such as SAA. This SOE legislation will facilitate a role for
       Parliament in the formation and change in status of any SOE. I
       believe this will accommodate the important point made by the
       Committee that if an enterprise is strategic enough that we
       bring the matter to Parliament, then surely Parliament should
       have some role if that status is changed. Our intention is to
       bring this piece of legislation to the Committee in the second
       half of this year.” Of course, the “recommendation” the Minister
       refers to is a proposed “amendment” – but the Committee
       recognises the value of what the Minister proposes and accepts
       it. However, consistent with paragraph 2 and what is set out in
       this paragraph, we have effected the Preamble referred to above.


    5. The Minister said that the Shareholder Management Bill will
       provide for each SOE to have a Charter that sets out its
       strategic role. Any major change to this Charter would be
       brought to Parliament.

    6. The Minister said that he would explain his intention to provide
       for the measures in the pending Shareholder Management Bill
       during the debate in the National Assembly on the SAA Bill.


    7. The Committee agrees that the amendments it proposes to the SAA
       Bill are better addressed in the pending Shareholder Management
       Bill and will attend to this in the processing of that Bill.


    8. Of course, the Committee recognises the volatility of the
       airline industry and SAA’s vulnerabilities, and the government
       may need to act swiftly, but the Committee believes that any
       major changes to SAA relating to the issues dealt with in this
       Bill should, ideally, take place after the Shareholder
       Management Bill is passed.  If this is not possible, the
       Minister should inform Parliament of major decisions taken in
       terms of the SAA Bill.
       Report to be considered.