WEDNESDAY, 23 MAY 2007 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 15:02.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT

               Role of families in moral regeneration

1. Rev K R J Meshoe (ACDP) asked the Deputy President:

   (1) Whether she has called on families to do their part in the moral regeneration; if not, why not; if so,

   (2) whether she or the Government has informed families of what is expected of them; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (3) whether she or her office has informed families on what the definition of morality is; if not, (a) why not and (b) how can families expect outcomes without knowing the definition of morality from the Government’s perspective; if so, what definition? N467E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, hon members, the answer to the question is that we have to state first that it is not only the responsibility of the Presidency and government to address the question of family participation and the Moral Regeneration Movement. It is the responsibility of every member in this House in your capacity as leaders, individuals, parents and concerned members of the society. Therefore, there is a responsibility for all of us to come together to deal with the many challenges in our society such as the establishment of the culture of learning and teaching in our schools which needs parents to participate in the fight against crime, particularly domestic violence which happens in the homes; the fight against HIV and Aids; lifestyle changes; and many other challenges where parents can make a big difference.

On several occasions, in answering the second part of the question, leaders in our country, including myself, in different platforms have all called upon families to take responsibility. In the draft of the moral charter of values, the family and the community are identified as co-socialising units that inspire and create the moral and ethical values in society. In this regard, the draft of the charter addresses specific issues that are related to the family – issues that create the promotion of family values; the fighting against domestic violence; the cultivation of a family and a communal environment that promotes the culture of care, generosity, and exclusivity; using resources efficiently and equitably to the benefit of all family and community members; and lastly benefiting others as well as ourselves through personal growth and the acquisition of skills.

I need to emphasise that it is very critical that in our anti-poverty strategy as well as in our efforts to end poverty – not just to reduce it, we must make sure that within a family and within each household where there is poverty, there is a resolution not to pass poverty to the next generation. Government, in that regard, must support families in their endeavours to achieve this noble goal. Thank you.

Rev K R J MESHOE: Madam Speaker, the third part of my question has not been answered and I trust that the Deputy President will also answer that. At the national consultative meeting of the Moral Regeneration Movement held in November 2001, former Deputy President Zuma said that the lack of parental control over children and the general blurring of the lines between right and wrong continued to plague our communities. Does the Deputy President agree that parents must teach their children what is right and wrong without government interference? Teachers must teach their students what is right and wrong and that the definition of morality must include good human behaviour so that the lines between right and wrong will become clearer to enable families to do their part in moral regeneration. I thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, if you talk about teaching children about right and wrong without government intervention and in the same breath you talk about teachers - teachers work for government. So, we expect them as government to represent you and me in ensuring that they transmit good values to children. I feel so sad, father, if that is interference for you.

In addition, at the end of the day all of us as parents, with everything that we do in our capacities as professionals and leaders, there may be a chance that if things go wrong people will not ask you what it is that you did. But, when it comes to your children, the buck stops with you as a parent. So, there is no mangamanga about parents. Parents must take that responsibility and embrace it, no matter what the government or the society does.

At the same time, you cannot wish away government on the rights of the children because the government has to be there to enforce those rights. If parents neglect and abuse children, somebody has to come in and protect the children. I think in this regard, we appreciate the role that is played by child protection agencies, be they from government, NGOs or elsewhere. This is because all of those efforts are not interfering but they are supporting parents in order for the parents to recharge their responsibilities.

Mr V B NDLOVU: There is a perception, Madam Speaker, hon Deputy President, that while we are preaching moral regeneration with the youth and the parents, it seems as if government on the other side is going ahead in promulgating laws that are contrary to the regeneration. They are degenerating the community, instead.

Ngikhuluma, mhlonishwa Sekela Mongameli, ngento enjengomthetho wokuganana kwabantu abanezintshebe bobabili kanti futhi nanjengowokuhushulwa kwezisu, bese ngiphinda ngikhuluma ngokuthi - noma siyobuye sikucubungule kahle – ngabe kulungile yini ukuthi abantu badayise imizimba yabo ezitaladini? Uma sikuvumela lokhu, bese sikhuluma ngokuthi kufanele sakhe ubuzwe nobuntu ebantwini, asiphambani yini nalokhu esikushoyo uma thina futhi siphinde senza okunye lapha eNdlini? (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Hon Deputy President, I am speaking here about things like the Civil Union Bill, which allows a marriage between two bearded men, and the Choice on Termination of Pregnancy Act and I also wish to talk about the – but anyway we will analyse this later on – but, is it right for the people to prostitute themselves on the streets? If we allow this to happen and on the other side we speak of moral regeneration, are we not contradicting ourselves if we speak about moral regeneration and do something completely opposite here in this House?]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, before I answer the question, with your permission I would just like to make reference to the third part of the question from the Reverend. The answer is simply that government does not want the responsibility of being the only one that defines morality. We think that is a collective responsibility - that the customs, the lifestyles and the belief systems that we all regard as acceptable in our society, must be things that we all embrace. So, we do not want to appropriate that for ourselves. We want you to participate in helping us to shape that.

Coming back to the last question, you did say in your answer that “there is a perception”. The perception is not a reality - that some of our laws may be giving an impression that we want to promote these things. In fact, if we look at any of these legal instruments that you have spoken about, they are trying to regulate a situation that, if unregulated, will create even more problems for us in the society. And that is why, for instance in the area of the civil union, we needed to create a situation where people were not discriminated against - because whatever your sexual orientation is, we do not want you to be stoned in the street. We do not want you to feel that the Constitution does not cover you. So, I don’t think that you should try and capitalise on these issues because these are difficult issues in any society.

Kodwa uma ufuna ukumgana lo mfowethu oseceleni kwakho, ngizokuvimbela kanjani? Lo ohleli naye uma efuna ukukugana wena kanti futhi niyafanelana, kufanele sinilungiselele ukuze nikwazi ukuganana kahle. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[But if you want to marry that brother next to you, how will I prevent you from doing it? If the one seated next to you wants to marry you and you are a perfect match, we must make provision for you to do it in a right way.]

On some of these issues, for instance an issue such as abortion, there are difficulties, again. There are situations where you and I would agree that it is not tenable for children as young as 13 who have been raped to carry on with a pregnancy, for instance. So, all of these are very difficult and emotive issues. I think this goes back to the question of the role of a parent – to give all of us guidance so that when we make these difficult decisions, we cater for all of the emotional stress that comes with making decisions like these ones.

On the issue of prostitution, no one agrees that it is a choice that women must make. That is why we try everything to get women out of that area of work. But, none of us would say that when women are in that area of work, we want them to be abused by the people who are perpetuating the practice by buying the service. So again, it is one of those issues where we cannot really capitalise. Ibuhlungwana le ndaba. [This is somewhat sad.]

Mr W J SEREMANE: Madam Speaker, at a broader level of challenges facing us and in the light of the current indications that our South African society’s moral fibre is facing severe tests and stress almost to a breaking point, is the Deputy President contemplating on taking decisive and proactive steps to revive and invigorate the somewhat dithering moral regeneration initiative?

Furthermore, what is the Deputy President’s view on the contention that government should play only a facilitating role and leave this task to ecumenical or interfaith bodies in civil society? Although politics impacts on every sector of society, it cannot claim to be the be-all and the end- all of society. Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, I think I just said in the earlier answer that government does not see these issues as issues where government alone can play a role. These are issues where everybody has a responsibility. If you talk about civil society, you talk about religious organisations. This is still not a sum total of society. There would still be people who will fall between the cracks. So, government must do its best; civil society, of all sorts must do its best; as well as the religious bodies. So, one must not split them. Again, I want to emphasise that these are not issues around which one tries and scores points. The issues are serious enough for everybody to have to do their best.

The moral regeneration is fully supported by us. The institution continues to interact with the society and constituencies that they have identified and developed. As we speak now, we can see that some of the provinces as well as municipalities in their own rights have established moral regeneration facilities and through that they are able to interact with the civil society. However, I would be the first one to say that we can do much more using that institution, given that it is beginning to enjoy acceptance in the broader society. So, I would urge that as government as well as the broader society, we support the institution.

Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Madam Speaker, in response to question 2, the Deputy President responded by saying that it was not the government that should inform families about their values but that they should be regulated by their belief systems and values. I agree with that. But, at the same time, communities do suffer the tyranny of the majority where government will decide what should happen in different communities.

Umbuzo wami-ke mhlonishwa Sekela Mongameli uthi, ngabe umhlonishwa ucabanga ukuthi imiphakathi ehlukene ingenze njani uma ibona ukuthi kungathi lokhu okwenziwa uhulumeni kuyayihlukumeza inkolelo yayo? [My question therefore, hon Deputy President, is, what does the hon Deputy President think the different communities must do if they feel that what the government is doing offends their beliefs?]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, I said it is not the government alone.

Kufanele sibambisane kulokhu. Kodwa uma imiphakathi ibona ukuthi indlela uhulumeni afaka ngayo igalelo ayibanelisi, abavote phela ukuze bamkhiphe lo hulumeni. [We must work together on this. But if the communities strongly feel that the government’s contribution does not satisfy their needs, they must then vote to put this government out of office.]

 Steps taken by government iro Joint Initiative for Priority Skills
                         Acquisition (Jipsa)

1. Dr P W A Mulder (FF Plus) asked the Deputy President:

   With reference to the Government’s Joint Initiative for Priority Skills Acquisition (Jipsa), what steps has the government taken to lure “Africans in diaspora” back to South Africa to apply their skills here? N922E The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, the Jipsa approach highlights the need for training and for the utilisation of trained personnel so that people can acquire experience. This is motivated by Jipsa research which confirms that areas of skills shortage are common in many sectors in our society in South Africa as well as in many other nations. There is a global shortage of, for example, artisans and engineers. This shortage is not just in South Africa alone. In South Africa there is a shortage in numbers, especially regarding skilled and experienced black persons.

In reference to the article that was in the newspaper this morning about an urban legend, there is truth in that article because blacks do not get experience. Therefore skills become scarcer because they are not deployed appropriately in the areas that they work in and so they then lack experience. It’s not that they are not there in all cases.

We, however, also recognise that our training capacity does not allow for adequate skills for all our needs, especially given our robust growth in the economy. In that regard, we are not only looking at training in South Africa, we have also looked at training in other countries. These include countries such as India, United Arab Emirates, France, Japan, China, Germany, Malaysia, Australia, the United Kingdom, the Netherlands and Switzerland; and, very soon, we will be placing some students in countries such as Singapore and East Africa. Our approach in dealing with the scarce skills and priority skills challenge comprises the following: attracting volunteers and contracted persons for mentoring and redeployment of relevant skills in South Africa; and recruiting retired experts who want to return to the labour market. Eskom has been successful in recruiting retirees. The Engineering Council of South Africa has the database of 300 retired engineers who are willing to come back to work on a full-time or part-time basis. In that regard, we are recruiting from that database.

Regarding training, giving experience and reskilling unemployed graduates through placement in South Africa and other economies to fast-track the acquisition of experience, to date – which is one year after the formation of Jipsa – we have placed more than 4 000 graduates in South Africa. That’s a modest number and I think we can do much more. We have done that together with Umsobomvu. Internationally, we have placed 750 graduates through working with the IDT, specifically targeting work experience in finance, tourism, built environment as well as ICT.

Concerning highlighting opportunities for South Africans who live in other countries who would like to return to South Africa and to the continent in general instead of being in the developed world, we do that by ensuring that we offer specific opportunities that obtain in the South African economy. Organisations such as Homecoming Revolution and our embassies abroad are also helping in this regard. As an example, no fewer than 35 engineers were recruited by the Department of Public Enterprises into various infrastructure development programmes. Eskom has also been able to recruit South Africans from the USA and the Middle East. In fact, 60% of their internationally-recruited experts are South African. So there is a bias towards South Africans when we do this recruitment.

As you know, we have created a database in the Development Bank of Southern Africa. This is used for recruiting retirees through the Siyenza Manje Programme. Again, those Africans that are in the diaspora are also invited to list their names in that database so that we can also recruit them. We are also seeking opportunities to increase postgraduate studies in these scarce skills. We have facilitated scholarships in this regard in Australia, France and Japan. We are still exploring more opportunities. The most recent one has been to send away 20 engineers on a two-year programme for advanced project management in France at the Sorbonne University, and a one-year academic experience and a one-year work experience in a large infrastructure institution.

The global shortage of skills in the priority sector is a reality. As a result, these experts are highly mobile and they are in demand, and they are quite expensive. It is …

The SPEAKER: Hon Deputy President, maybe you should table the information in writing. It does seem like there is a lot of information and that is quite welcome. I have extended your time by more than two minutes.

REPLY:

The JIPSA approach highlights the need for training and for the utilization of trained persons so that people can acquire experience. This is motivated by the JIPSA research studies which confirmed that areas of skills shortage are common in many nations. There is a global shortage of artisans, engineers, etc. In South Africa there is a shortage of numbers of experienced skilled black persons. We do however recognize that our training capacity does not allow adequate skills for all our needs especially with the robust growth in our economy. In that regard we have placed people in South Africa, India, United Arab Emirates, France, Japan, China, Germany, Malaysia, Australia, the United Kingdom, the Netherlands, Switzerland etc in the following sectors: construction, finance, project management, hospitality and ICT.

Our approach in dealing with the scarce and priority skills challenge comprises of the following strategies:-

Attracting volunteers as well as contracted persons for mentoring and re- deployment of relevant skills in South Africa,

Recruiting retired experts who want to return to the labour market. Eskom has been very successful in recruiting retirees. The Engineering Council of South Africa has a database of 300 retired engineers who are willing to come back to work on a full time or part time basis. In that regard South Africans are prioritized, then Africans and then any other person.

Training and giving experience and re-skilling unemployed graduates, through placement in South Africa and other economies to fast track skills acquisition. To date we have placed more than 4000 graduates locally - I think we can and should do much - through the Umsobomvu Youth Fund, and more than 750 internationally, through the Independent Development Trust (IDT) Jipsa Work Experience Programme.

Highlighting opportunities for South Africans who live in other countries to return to South Africa and African professionals who live in the developed countries as well as other international professionals, to relocate to South Africa and assist us in this phase of the highest rate of development in our economy. Organizations such as the Home Coming Revolution and our embassy are also helping. As an example, no less than 35 engineers were recruited by DPE into various areas of infrastructure development. Eskom has been able to recruit South Africans from the USA and the Middle East, in fact 60% of their internationally recruited experts are returning South Africans.

As you know the Development Bank of Southern Africa (DBSA) has created a database to register retirees, returning skilled experts, and other South Africans who want to be recruited to deal with the skills challenge. Through Siyenza Manje they have already deployed 90 experts and young graduates to deal with municipal infrastructure constraints. The database is open to all with skills, and does not target Africans in the Diaspora in particular, however if they apply or register they are considered for opportunities.

We also are seeking opportunities to increase post graduate studies and have facilitated scholarships in this regard in Australia and France and are exploring more opportunities. We recently sent 20 Engineers to a two year program for advanced project management in France and we will be sending more to Sorbonne University for work experience for 1 year.

There is a global shortage of skills in the priority sectors, as a result experts in these areas are highly mobile, and recruitment is competitive. As members of NEPAD we are conscious of the need for skills in the whole African continent. Our approach is to encourage Africans to return to Africa and contribute towards African development goals; however some prefer to come to South Africa. We will always primarily motivate for South Africans in the Diaspora to relocate in South Africa, however, this motivation also applies to other Africans to relocate in South Africa, opportunities prevailing, and also in the continent in general. South Africa will host an international conference on Africa in the Diaspora and the issue of skills for Africa is high on that agenda.

Dr C P MULDER: Madam Speaker, Deputy President, thank you very much for the answer. Congratulations on the efforts that are being done abroad. I really think it’s worthwhile to try that.

A few decades ago Ireland lost most of her skilled labour as Irish citizens left the country because they could not get the jobs in Ireland. Today these people are moving back to Ireland because conditions in Ireland have changed. They are now using their skills and experience that they gained abroad to build the Irish economy. I really dream that the same pattern will repeat itself in South Africa.

Many South Africans left the country because they could not get jobs here or conditions were so much better abroad. I recently met a few brown, black and white nurses working in Britain. They are South African citizens and would like to come back. According to some ANC documents, the black nurse and former president Aristide are Africans in the diaspora. The brown and white nurses are not Africans in the diaspora, according to documents that I read. Surely, this is racism and cannot be the government’s position. I would like to ask: When we talk about Africans in diaspora and trying to get them back, does that include all South Africans? Are we sending that message, because I think the people abroad need to hear it?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, I am not a spokesperson of the ANC. You must ask Smuts Ngonyama. Anyway, government does not have a position like that. When we go out and recruit South Africans, we recruit all South Africans. When we talk about Africans in the diaspora, we mean everybody who regard themselves as Africans. If you look at the people that we have been able to bring into South Africa, you will actually see that that’s the pattern. That shows that we are actually not discriminating. The skills and the willingness of a person to come back to South Africa are the important attributes.

Mr C M LOWE: Madam Speaker, Deputy President, good afternoon. Just over 14 months ago you launched Jipsa in Johannesburg – you would recall the headlines. You said at the time that we needed nothing short of a skills revolution if we were to tackle the skills crisis in South Africa. Now, 14 months have come and gone and I think the jury is still out on whether we have actually tackled that.

I think you have been brave enough to concede at times in this House that we haven’t been as successful in some areas as we could have been. We have a lot of work to do regarding some of the skills that we need to get people skilled and to get people into jobs. You have also said this afternoon and you have conceded that what Jimmy Manye, the chairperson of the Commission for Employment Equity, said has a grain of truth in regarding the skills shortage being an urban legend. Could I ask you to perhaps be more specific because he went on to say a number of other things, all of which contrast directly with what you and the government have been saying about the skills crisis in South Africa, that something like 500 000 jobs have to be filled? Is Mr Manye correct? Do you agree with him or are you saying, “No, he is wrong. He has to be put in his place because there is a serious skills crisis in this country?”

If you are saying that he is correct, Madam Deputy President, what do you suggest I should tell all these people who write to me, to the FF or might write to you? These are good loyal South Africans who want to work here but cannot find work. Many of them are overseas now - chemical engineers with 11 years’ experience, engineering scientists, and there is a quantity surveyor who came back last year from overseas who has been there for five years. They want to work but cannot get employment. When they write to me, what do I say to them? Should I send their letters to your office because there are vacancies we have to fill? So, what I am really saying, Deputy President, is that your words are making sense but the fact of the matter is that behind those words things are not happening. What do we tell those South Africans regarding whether there is a place for them in South Africa? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, firstly, I actually agree with Jimmy Manye in the sense that we have this in our document, and the research that was done by the University of Cape Town bears that out. The unemployment of black graduates has to do with, firstly, in some cases, the misalignment of the skills they have and the skills that are in demand. The other challenge is that many of those with technical skills tend not to have soft skills. So they don’t do as well at the workplace as team players concerning presentations, and those things that do not necessarily come with technical skills. They have therefore recommended and we have recommended to universities that, even if a person goes to a university to learn to be an accountant, they must also be taught some of the softer skills because those help them to do better in employment.

In addition, you have skilled black South Africans who are sitting in positions that are way below their qualifications and therefore do not have a natural progression and the experience that is required for them to fill the positions that remain vacant. That is where I agree with Jimmy. In the end, they just leave the profession. We have many engineers who are not in engineering. When we interview them, they say, “I never could get close to anything that was closer to anything that I had learnt. I felt that I was just a clerk. So I went into banking.” There are such challenges and we are engaging with the industries where there is a shortage of skills in order to make sure that we can address that.

Regarding the CVs that you have, I think that the hon members on that not- so-nice side of the House know my approach. [Interjections.] They know that I am always open. I think all the Ministers who are in the areas where we are looking for skills would like to get those CVs. Minister Alec is our chief induna in that regard.

The willingness of the people is most important. Regarding some of the CVs that we have received in the past, part of the problem has been that people have only wanted to go to the urban areas, which is where we don’t have the most critical problems. With some cases there are genuine problems such as family and so on. One of the approaches that we are adopting now to respond to those is that in some cases, especially in relation to municipalities, we will group people so that they are not tied to one municipality. They would not have to live at … I almost said Mahlabathini and that’s a nice place and everybody wants to live there … [Interjections.] Bergville! That’s the place to where I trace my ancestoral roots. People can come in and out as long as they are there long enough to hand-hold people.

So if you have people who are disgruntled in relation to the public sector, we can talk to that. If it’s in the private sector, obviously we have limited intervention but we can try, even if it’s in the private sector. Obviously, we cannot force employers to employ people if, for whatever reason, they are not the appropriate candidates.

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order: Is it parliamentary for an hon member, and the Deputy President in particular, to refer to members who are not on her side of the House as “those members on the not-so-nice side of the House”? [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: That was obviously said in a light-hearted tone.

Mr M J ELLIS: And I am saying this in a nice, light-hearted manner as well.

The SPEAKER: I saw you were smiling as you raised that question.

Dr U ROOPNARAIN: Madam Speaker, Madam Deputy President, we thank you for your answer. According to the Financial Mail, there are a lot of them who want to come back but nobody is making it easy for them to come back home. Actual positions are not being advertised. For instance, on the South African information website there is no list of vacancies or jobs that are available in South Africa. So we recommend that these jobs be advertised. We also believe that the Woza Ekhaya campaign should become more aggressive so that people can come back home. Finally, is there any job security for those who want to come back home? Thank you. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, Madam Speaker, if you pick up any newspapers, you will see that there are lots of advertisements. If I speak for government, most newspapers are sold by government advertisements. So it is not true that jobs are not being advertised. Jobs are advertised. If you know of a vacancy that exists but which is not being advertised, maybe you need to point that one out. As far as I know, there are lots of jobs that are always and all the time being advertised.

I agree with you that the Homecoming Revolution has to be aggressive. However, what we have decided to do in Jipsa, in order to make sure that there is a greater exposure to the opportunities that are there, is that we have asked Eskom for their assistance and they seem to have done this well – I haven’t even told Minister Erwin. We have asked for a co-ordinated approach with other parastatals, government departments and the private sector where we go hunting together. We go with HR people from those institutions that are looking so that, right there on the spot, they can engage with the candidates and we can go into those parts of the world where we know that there is a large pool of South Africans who may be willing to come home. So if you have any ideas regarding where there is a large congregation of skilled South Africans who need the information, we are not only going to expose them to what we have but we are also willing to take our people, go out there and interact with them on a face-to-face basis. We are trying and we want to be contactable. Regarding the issue of whether there is going to be job security, one has to thatha amashansi [take chances]. It’s going to be like that for anybody else: You apply for a job, you get a contract that says three, four or five years and that is it. There is no special dispensation because you have come back to South Africa.

Mr C M MORKEL: Madam Speaker, Deputy President, thank you very much for the answers to the questions you gave earlier. Noting the presentation to the Portfolio Committee on Science and Technology by the Shutdown Network Forum and Fluor Igoda on 20 February 2007 in which they suggested that one way of addressing the scarce and critical skills shortage envisaged by Jipsa would be to stagger some of the Asgisa and related mega projects or parts thereof; and noting that the Shutdown Network Forum has been successful in sharing a limited pool of resources for maintenance and shutdowns in the petroleum, steel, chemical, energy, paper and pulp industries, does the Deputy President believe that there is an opportunity to stagger certain Asgisa-related projects or parts thereof so that we could promote sustainable employment in a manner that will extend across the productive life of those whose skills we require, that is scarce or critical skills as opposed to providing those people with skills with employment until 2015, which is the timeline for many of the mega projects to be completed and would potentially make those people then redundant?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon member, those are details. Those are strategic decisions that project managers must take but they must take them having considered what is in the national interest and which projects cannot be staggered. We can’t stagger 2010 projects. They all have to happen before a particular time. For me that is really about detail.

As far as I know, the fact that they are Asgisa projects is because they are urgent and there is a timeframe within which they need to be completed. If you do them sooner, it’s actually the better for you and me.

   HIV and Aids and STI Strategic Plan for South Africa, 2007-2011

1. Ms M L Matsemela (ANC) asked the Deputy President:

   In light of her unveiling of the HIV and Aids and STI Strategic Plan for South Africa, 2007-2011, (a) what is the relationship between this strategic plan and previous initiatives by the government to deal with HIV/Aids and sexually transmitted infections and (b) what is the specific role of the SA National Aids Council to ensure the implementation of the plan and (c) how can civil society and Parliament contribute towards the success of this plan? N944E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon members and Madam Speaker, firstly let me give some background on the plans that we have in relation to the fight against HIV/Aids and other diseases. We started with the Partnership Against HIV/Aids, as you know, some years ago. The campaign was launched by the President in 1998, when he was Deputy President, with the objective of broadening the involvement of the various sectors of civil society as well as government departments beyond just the Department of Health.

A strategic plan was then developed for the period between 2000 and 2005 to guide the activities of this sector. The establishment of the SA National Aids Council, Sanac, in 2000, was therefore part of this strategy.

During that period, that framework elapsed. We needed to continue to provide guidance and leadership as partners. The national strategic plan for HIV/Aids and sexually transmitted diseases for the period 2007 to 2011 is therefore a continuation of the role of government in providing leadership and guidance to all stakeholders in the national response to HIV/Aids and STIs.

This work, as you know, was initiated under the leadership of Minister Manto Tshabalala-Msimang.

The new strategic plan takes into account a review of the previous one. It builds on what has been done and also continues to provide this leadership and guidance in a manner that considers the current state of the epidemic, the current policy, legal and political environment as well as the impact on general society.

The strategic plan provides a broad framework and it is expected that all government departments and sectors of civil society will align their strategies and business plans in order to achieve the sets of agreed targets with critical stakeholders. I was very much impressed that at the launch of the strategy, rather on an impromptu base, we asked each of the partners to share with us plans they had in order to fit in the strategic plan. Almost all the partners that were present at that meeting had a plan of one sort that showed that they had thought through how they were going to respond to the new strategic plan.

I would like to remind you, for instance, of the objectives of Sanac. It is to advise government on HIV/Aids and STI matters; to create and strengthen partnership for an expanded national response; to support sectoral work; and to monitor and evaluate all aspects of the strategic plan.

A monitoring and evaluation framework has been developed and the Sanac secretariat will ensure that there is support to these sectors and that the reports on identified indicators are regularly presented at council.

Sanac is accountable to Cabinet and to different sectors that are represented in the council. Parliament should ensure that all parliamentarians understand in detail what is outlined in the plan and how the country can respond to this epidemic in the next five years. I would like to propose that Parliament should further consider the following: To ensure that the activities to address HIV/Aids and STIs are central in the work that they do in their parliamentary programme - but that must not be done in isolation;to address the broader health issues in our country; to ensure that the laws that we passed are complementary to the initiatives that we are undertaking in this regard; and that Members of Parliament must familiarise themselves with the targets that are envisaged in the national strategic plan.

The plan is available on the website of the Department of Health. You should download it so that you are able to finalise it. It also has a summary that goes with it.

Mme M L MATSEMELA: Ke a leboga, Motlatsa Presidente, ka karabo ya gago e e bontshang togamaano, tatelano ya dintlha le tlhojo ya tsona ka matsetseleko ao a bontshang boineelo. [Thank you, Deputy President, for your response that excellently shows strategic planning and logical presentation of points which reflects diligence and dedication.]

However, given the fact that the stakeholders need to be committed in implementing the plan and further realising, on the other hand, that civil society is not committed to the entire society, but to its own constituencies, how will Sanac, under your leadership, ensure that this diverse civil society plays its role in ensuring successful implementation of the National strategic plan? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, the truth of the matter is that in this kind of work, every little bit counts. Even one person: if they do their best, they actually count. In fact, one of my favourite campaigns in this work is the campaign that says, “It depends on you and me”, because if I do my bit, whether negative or positive, I make a big difference. If I am negative and I do everything that I need to do to stay negative, it’s a revolutionary contribution. If I am positive and I don’t re-infect myself and I do not infect anybody else, that, already, is a major contribution.

So, even before you are a member of an organisation, you can play a role by making that decision at a personal level.

Regarding the organised formations and the partners of Sanac, we have asked them to each develop a plan that feeds into the overall plan, because we want to gauge the resource needs and the robustness of the different interventions that they have. To some extent, we are going to support and resource some of those activities, but also we expect them to use whatever resources they could mobilise elsewhere to bring to the table.

Yes, some of these organisations have determined constituencies and they will focus on those constituencies. That is useful as well, because they can have depth in ensuring that if youth focuses on youth that will be a major breakthrough, even if they do not focus on the ‘gogos’ [old ladies]. If women focus on women and there is a major breakthrough in support of women, that will be a major breakthrough.

However, we try to encourage, in Sanac, some kind of co-ordination between sectors. For instance, I’ve tried to marry the youth with broadcasting, because the youth messages and the messages that young people want to have are best when they are produced by young people themselves, but young people do not own communication facilities and therefore they are not always able to send their messages. Therefore, we are trying to get broadcasting and the media to work together with the youth.

When you deal with women, for instance, they are bearing the brunt of the epidemic, as we know, though men are arguing that the reason why we think women have high infection rates is because women are responsible enough to come forward to test and to disclose. Maybe there is a bigger challenge with men. It is just that we do not know, because sometimes men just don’t want to know. So, the men’s organisations are using their muscle to mobilise men, amongst other things, to copy some of the choices that women are making in making sure that we have access to information.

I think it is not an either – or situation, hon member. It is about those who work in a particular sector doing their work more effectively in their sector, but also it is about Sanac as a forum encouraging that different sectors work together and share resources and information. Sometimes they are addressing the same constituency.

If you should think about youth and women, a young woman belongs to both constituencies. Therefore, it makes sense that young women and the women’s sector also collaborate. Thank you.

Mr M W SIBUYANA: Sorry, Madam Speaker, my question was to follow the previous question.

Mr G R MORGAN: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Deputy President, the new strategic plan has been a triumph of consultation and has been welcomed by practically all stakeholders, including my own party. Its targets are very ambitious, and so they should be because we need to turn the tide on HIV/Aids. But in order for government and NGOs to achieve these critical goals, we need funds and, more importantly, those funds need to be spent.

Despite these goals the funds that we need have not yet been fully realised. I have heard a figure emanating from inside government that for the period ending in 2011, the funding shortfall at this stage may be as high as R30 billion. Madam Deputy President, how, under your leadership of Sanac, do you intend dealing with the funding shortfall and further, when one considers that three provincial health departments received qualified audit reports and two received disclaimer of opinions last year, how do you intend to ensure that the funds are actually spent on HIV projects? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, this issue of the shortfall, we don’t know where it comes from, because from where we stand, the money that has been allocated over five years - and the Minister is just confirming now - is R30 billion. That, at any rate, is a lot of money. To say that you still need an additional R11 billion on numbers that are soft, I don’t think that it’s OK. Just you and I must know that in terms of capacity to spend in South Africa that is a lot of money. If we run out of that money, I think that government will be the first one to say let us do something about it. But for now, if people can even spend that amount, I think they would go a long way towards addressing the challenges that we face fundamentally.

What are we doing in order to capacitate and to support provinces and departments nationally and provincially to do that? The answer is one of the things we have agreed to do in Cabinet, to support and to drive the vacancies that we have, especially from chief directorship and above, in all government institutions. We shall push very hard to make sure that we fill them up and the team in the Department of the Public Service and the different Ministers are actually seized with that work.

Secondly, in the case of provinces, myself, Rev Chikane and a team from different departments, including Health, have been doing a road show going from province to province, sitting there and looking at their previous audits, their different performance areas, their growth and development strategies, their delivery of services, and going with them for the whole day asking what the problem is and what it is that we need to do. Health has always come up as a crucial point.

One of the things on which we have agreed with them, together with both the Minister who is on leave and the Acting Minister, is that in the area of health, we have to make sure that there is no health facility in the country which does not have a CEO. We must push very hard because the buck must stop with somebody at a senior level. Those people can then be held accountable against the targets that are possible in the institution they are responsible for. We hope for the best in these interventions.

Ms S RAJBALLY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Hon Deputy President, you have answered some of the questions that were on my mind. I want to say that you have a very good sixth sense.

Ihlakaniphile le ndodakazi yami. [Uhleko.] [This daughter of mine is intelligent. [Laughter.]]

Nevertheless, I am going to ask you some questions, Madam Deputy President. Will this new strategic plan be taken to community levels, schools, especially high schools and universities and youth centres; and how can we, as MPs, at the grass-roots level get involved in this plan? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, hon member, our intention and hope is that we are going to take this strategy to the different communities and different sectors including education. That is why the composition in Sanac has this multisectoral approach not just from government, but also from civil society.

In the case of government, the Minister of Education is a member of Sanac and we regard education as one of the critical sectors in Sanac. The Minister of Minerals and Energy is a member because in mining we have specific challenges. The Minister of Agriculture is a member because, amongst farmworkers, we have specific challenges. The Minister of Transport who sits there as Acting Minister of Health as well, also sits there because of particular problems in transport. We then expect that those departments should cascade to provinces, to partners in the civil society at a local level. We do need, desperately, members in this House to also participate.

The first and most important thing is for you to get information. I know that the caucus of my party have asked that they be thoroughly briefed on the strategy so that they can use that information when they go home. I think there is no problem. We can brief everybody in this House so that everybody is on top of the detail. We can also give each other suggestions, because I don’t think that the Presidency, the Department of Health and government in general think that we’ve got monopoly when it comes to ideas of how best to make the strategy work.

Mrs C DUDLEY: Hon Deputy President, is the expected influx of visitors to South Africa at the time of the 2010 Soccer World Cup expected to impact measurably on the present situation regarding HIV/Aids and sexually transmitted diseases, and has specific provisions been made with regard to prevention campaigns and access to treatment during this period, and what are the details? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Firstly, Madam Speaker, I just want to make a correction. We have R15,7 billion over three years. At that point we will evaluate and then we will be able to make additional resources available depending on whether we have a shortfall or we are able to perform better.

On the issue of 2010, clearly any event that creates concern, not only HIV/Aids, but all issues that have to do with health, are of concern to the Local Organising Committee. We have not developed a 2010 HIV/Aids strategy, because obviously our starting point is not that soccer lovers are spreaders of HIV/Aids - but to the extent that we must be vigilant in all cases we will definitely, as we get closer to the time, mount a campaign in such a way that visitors who come here take precaution just as we would expect them to take precaution in relation to safety issues, environmental issues, TB, etc. We will make sure.

At the same time, we do not want to project our country as a country where the only thing people who come here can think about is danger and risk. We must be able to balance these things, because we just cause unnecessary panic in our visitors.

ITC guarantees iro 2010 Fifa World Cup, and location of International
                Broadcast Centre for World Cup Finals

1. Mr B M Komphela (ANC) asked the Deputy President:

   (a) What progress has been made with regard to the fulfilment of Information and Communications Technology (ITC) guarantees to Fifa in preparation for the 2010 Fifa World Cup and (b) what process will be used to determine the final site for the location of the International Broadcast Centre for the World Cup Finals? N945E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, hon members, government has made the following progress with regard to the fulfilment of the ICT guarantees to Fifa in preparation for the 2010 Fifa World Cup:

Firstly, with respect to telecommunications infrastructure links from the stadia to the International Broadcast Centre, Telkom has started to upgrade its core fibre-optic network to cater for the capacity required by Fifa. The network upgrade will be completed during the last quarter of 2008.

Secondly, the building of a new teleport by Sentech in order to meet Fifa requirements for a satellite uplink back-up is expected to be completed by 2009.

Thirdly, establishing the international capacity requirements for the 2010 Fifa World Cup is largely dependent on a commercial process between Host Broadcasting Services and broadcasters. Various international connectivity cables like SAT-3, SAFE and the Nepad ICT Broadband Cable will be used to provide connectivity for international broadcasters.

A selection panel was appointed to hear and evaluate the applications of the three cities shortlisted to host the IBC – Cape Town, Durban and Johannesburg. This panel consists of the Local Organising Committee, the Department of Communications, the 2010 Unit in Sport and Recreation SA and the Host Broadcasting Services. The three cities have made presentations on 19 and 20 March 2007 after which the panel has rated the cities and they are finalising their recommendations which will then be submitted to Cabinet for a decision.

I must emphasise that government takes very seriously this obligation because we are very much aware that the majority of the soccer lovers who will be watching the games will not be in South Africa in the stadia, they will be at home all over the world. So, nothing can go wrong and nothing can be spared in relation to ensuring that our IBC works efficiently.

Mr B M KOMPHELA: Thank you, Madam Speaker and Deputy President. Deputy President, now that the finalisation of the location of this centre has not been done, you might have been envisaging, firstly, how the country will benefit from this centre and, secondly, where the centre is going to be built and what would be the benefit. But now that the Deputy President is also very passionate about skills to young people, what would be the benefit of this centre for the young people after the World Cup for skills development?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, as the hon member knows, I think we have said here before that there is a significant shortage in South Africa of ICT skills and that we have to enhance and increase and embrace those skills at every opportunity.

This centre offers us another opportunity to increase and fast-track the training. So, the cities that have been building stadia also have to commit to both training and to absorbing the young people that would have gained experience from the IBC post-Fifa to the extent that we can collaborate with them as either Jipsa, the Department of Communications, the Department of Education and universities. We are indeed committed to making sure that the IBC does not become a white elephant after the games.

Mr J BICI: Madam Speaker, perhaps something is wrong with the recording system because I pressed the button to ask a question to the Deputy President from the previous question and not this one.

Ms M SMUTS: Madam Speaker, the hon Deputy President has made reference to a Sentech satellite link. But there is also a matter of digitisation of broadcasting signal distribution infrastructure. How can we be confident that their guarantees will in fact be made when Sentech has asked for R700 million over three years for that digitisation of that infrastructure? In fact it is receiving under the budgets just over R300 million. And, bearing in mind that Sentech is not a body that has independent borrowing powers, therefore how can we be confident when it is being given only half the money that I believe it does need?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, that is why we have supplementary estimates. We are alive to that issue. I’m one of the people who share your concern and myself, the President and the two Ministers – the Minister of Communications and the Minister of Finance – are putting our heads together because we share the concern. [Applause.]

Mr H B CUPIDO: Madam Speaker, hon Deputy President, how will current broadcasting be influenced by the 2010 Fifa World Cup with regards to the content in order to cater for the needs of locals and foreigners?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Could you please repeat your question? I didn’t quite understand your question.

Mr H B CUPIDO: Madam Speaker, I’m referring to content of that time with reference to what we are seeing currently on our channels. Will channels’ material that will be broadcast be different from that of today? How will it be influenced?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, I’m not a sangoma. Anyway, I did train to be one but I just dropped out. [Laughter.] My guess is that, yes, we will have to increase the channels as you see them now. We will obviously have broadcasts and content that will relate to the Cup. I promise you, I don’t imagine that there will be any station that will not want to feature. So, you will have your remote controls in hand and you will be moving from one station to the other and you will probably see more of the same because that will be what we will all be concerned about at that moment.

Of course, when it comes to general entertainment in between matches, we will broadcast our normal programmes. There will definitely be news broadcasts and of course I think we will make an effort to have entertainment that will ensure that the people that will be in South Africa at that time see more of our country. So, as you know, one of the legacies that we want to leave behind after 2010 is showcasing Africa and South Africa as a destination where you can find excellence, beauty and enjoyment. We want to showcase Africa during 2010 as a continent that has adequate infrastructure, and in particular we want that legacy for our people. That is why we have allocated so much in the budget for public transportation.

So, we would want to showcase all of those things that make our country look good and feel good. And we don’t want people during that time …

… ukuthi benze izinto ezibheke eceleni bese bevela kumabonakude. Siyanicela. [… to do all sorts of funny things and then appear on television. We are pleading with you.] PEACE AND SECURITY

                              Cluster 1

MINISTERS:

Rehabilitation programmes promoting interaction between criminals and their victims

1. Mrs S A Seaton (IFP) asked the Minister of Correctional Services:

   What is the current status of his department’s vision of more efficient rehabilitation programmes through promoting greater interaction between perpetrators of crime and their victims? N239E

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you very much, Speaker. I don’t see Mrs Seaton here, but I will still continue with the answer. You are not Seaton. The Department of Correctional Services has a social reintegration component that is responsible for the implementation of the victim empowerment programme and the victims’ charter. Both programmes are led by the Department of Social Development and the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development respectively. The Department of Correctional Services is a role-player. The department has a policy regarding the involvement of complainants, victims and correctional supervision and parole boards in place.

The policy aims to allow those victims who are interested to attend the correctional supervision and parole board hearings of offenders. Victims can also make an oral or audiovisual representation or be represented by a relative or other significant person. It is the responsibility of the department to inform victims on their request of the date and place of the parole board hearings, as well as other important information, such as when an offender has escaped, the date of release, as well as when the parole is revoked. The Department of Correctional Services through correctional and rehabilitation programmes encourages offenders to take responsibility for the crimes they have committed. Where possible, offenders are encouraged to apologise to victims and attempt to repair the harm. This is done through a process of victim-offender mediation or offenders could also write to victims to apologise.

Partnerships are formed with civil society organisations to render counselling services to victims of crime, and where possible, to prepare the victims to attend the correctional and supervision parole board hearings. These interventions are provided for in the draft policy on restorative justice. The policy also makes provision for the proper training and retraining of correctional officials dealing with restorative justice. It furthermore encourages the restoration of relationships between offenders and their families, as well as with communities. Successful social reintegration of offenders depends to a large extent on the willingness of society and communities to accept offenders after their release and after their parole and to give them moral support. Thank you.

The SPEAKER: Hon Ndlovu, standing in for the hon Seaton.

Mr V B NDLOVU: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Firstly, I want to apologise for Mrs Seaton who has flu. Minister, there is this problem of overcrowding in prisons and there is this early release that is being done by the department through consultation with others. Thirdly, there is the issue that if the victim rejects the coming together with the perpetrator, how does the department co-ordinate that? In the case of early release, how do the victims get hold of the perpetrator and negotiate about the understanding of what is taking place? I know the Minister fought against overcrowding because he is standing by the people who are awaiting trial and the people who are prisoners. If a person is earmarked for early release, how does that person communicate with the victim if there has been an early release or there is a decision that he should be released tomorrow? How does the department handle that?

UMPHATHISWA WEENKONZO ZOLULEKO: Gatsheni, ndiyathemba ukuba uwabonile amabanjwa eDurban Westville ngale ntsasa yanamhlanje, kwinkqubo i-Morning Live, ebonisa ukuba siwavuselela izimilo. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.) [The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Gatsheni, I hope that you have seen the prisoners in Durban Westville this morning, on the programme Morning Live, showing that we have regenerated their morals.]

I hope you saw that.

Umba wengxinano, sisebenzisa iindlela ezininzi ukulwa nawo, … [We use many methods to deal with the issue of overcrowding …]

… not only with early releases.

Amabanjwa asiwakhululi phambi kwexesha nje nanjani na. Ukugqibela kwethu ukwenza oko, kwenziwa ngamaqumrhu engqawule phantsi kwenkqubo kaMongameli.

Ukuba umntu ugwetyiwe ngoomantyi, kufuneka athothoze isigwebo sakhe sonke. Siyavana? Ayikho nje imeko apho amabanjwa akhululwa phambi kokugqiba kwawo ukuthothoza izigwebo zawo. Kukho iibhodi zengqawule kwilizwe lethu jikelele. Zizo ke eziqwalasela amabanjwa afanele ukukhululwa ngengqawule.

Xa ibanjwa lisiya kwibhodi yengqawule ngelithi: Ingathi noko ndikufanele ukuba ndibe ndingakhululwa. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[We do not just release prisoners before their time in whatever way. The last time we did this, it was handled by the parole board under the presidential programme.

If a person was sentenced by a magistrate he/she must serve his/her full sentence. Do we understand each other? There is no situation where prisoners are released before completing their sentences. There are parole boards in our country nationally. It is those boards which assess prisoners who qualify to be released on parole.

When a prisoner goes to the parole board with the notion: It seems I deserve to be released.]

The parole board will look at all reports, including a report …

… endiyifakeleleyo ethi makube kho iinkqubo ezine zesinyanzelo ezijongene nebanjwa ngalinye, ukuze angaphumi nje omile okwamadada ephuma emanzini, koko aphume esazi ukuba anezakhono. Ngoko, iba yibhodi yengqawule eyenza yonke loo nto.

Ukuba ubundimamele, ndithe iba yibhodi yengqawule ethi iqhagamshelane nexhoba ngelithi: Siza kuqwalasela imeko kaGatsheni ngosuku oluthile. UGatsheni ebebulele umntu wakwaMdladlana okanye ebenze into embi kwaMdladlana. Ilungu losapho elisele lisidla amazimba kwaMdladlane nguMembathisi.

Sithi ke ngoko simfune uMembathisi side simfumane. Ngosuku lokuqwalaselwa kwengqawule nguwe, Gatsheni, oza kuthetha noMembathisi. [Uwele-wele.] ‘Oza kuthini?’

Hayini bo, musani ukundiphendulisa into eninzi apha. Nithi ke ngoko nithethane kukho noonontlalontle. Noluntu siyalubandakanya ukwenzela ukuba lungamkhabeli ngaphandle loo mntu. Ukuba usapho lwexhoba lunoluvo lokuba loo mntu akakakulungeli ukukhutshwa okanye alumfuni, siyamgcina ze sisebenze ngaloo miba iyingxaki de uluntu nexhoba bayamkele into yokuba noko ibanjwa lilithothozile ixesha elaneleyo, ngoko liyintanga yokuba libe lingaphuma.

Ayenziwa nguNgconde loo nto. UNgconde uqeshe iibhodi zengqawule ukuba zenze loo nto. Ukuba ibanjwa alixolanga sisigqibo sokuqwalaselwa kwesicelo salo sengqawule, linakho ukubhala incwadi liyibhalela kuMpathiswa ukuze yena ayidlulisele kwiBhodi eQwalasela ngokuTsha iZicelo zeNgqawule, ukuze ibe yiyo ethi: Hayi, noko bekufanele ukuba abe ujongiwe lo. Siyavana, Gatsheni?

Ilula injalo le nto. Akukho mabanjwa akhululwa phambi kwexesha. Uya kuthothoza isigwebo sakho sonke de imeko yakho siyiqwalasele. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[… that I have added which says there must be four compulsory programmes that should deal with each prisoner, so that they are not released as dry as ducks that come out of water. Instead they must be released knowing that they have skills. Therefore, it is the parole board which deals with that whole issue.

If you have listened to me, I said it is the parole board which contacts the victim with this notion: We will look at the issue of Gatsheni on such and such a date. Gatsheni has murdered somebody from the Mdladlana family or has committed an offence at the Mdladlanas. The only living member of the Mdladlana family is Membathisi.

We then look for Membathisi until we find him. On the day of assessing your parole, it is you, Gatsheni, who will talk to Membathisi. [Interjections.] ‘Who will do what?’

Please, do not subject me to answering many questions. You then negotiate in the presence of social workers. We also involve the community so that they should not reject that person. If the family of the victim feels that a person is not eligible to be released, we keep him and work on the problematic issues until the victim and the community accept the fact that the prisoner has served his sentence effectively, therefore he/she qualifies to be released.

That is not done by Ngconde. Ngconde has employed the parole boards to deal with the matter. If a prisoner is not satisfied with the results of his/her parole assessment, he/she can write a letter to the Minister so that he can forward it to the parole board which assesses requests afresh, so that it should be the one saying: No, this one was supposed to be granted. Do we understand, Gatsheni?

It is as simple as that. No prisoners are released before their time. You will serve your full sentence until we assess your situation.]

Mr J SELFE: Thank you, Chairperson. Victim-perpetrator mediation is a critically important part of healing a society in which crime is far too prevalent and the process of putting victims and perpetrators together does not happen enough. Last year the Minister intervened to parole a certain Miss Dora Bell, a convicted murderer. The parole process is supposed, as the Minister correctly said, to hear the victims but the family of the murdered woman apparently did not get notified of the parole board hearing. The parole board apparently lacked the capacity. Does the department have the capacity to identify the victims or the families of the victims and to facilitate the interaction with the perpetrators? If not, what step is the Minister taking to build this capacity to allow these mediation sessions to occur?

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you, hon Selfe. Let me just quickly talk about this particular case. When that case came to light, the parole board was actually given the right by the head and the Minister and Commissioner to look at that case and see what comes out of that. The Minister did not just, out of the blue, say: “So and so, you are out.” We gave it to the parole board. You also said that “apparently” the victim’s family was not notified. That is what we picked up later, after the process had been finalised. We have now tightened it. These parole boards have only been in place for one and a half years. We are busy trying to capacitate them as much as we can. There will always be a lack of capacity here and there. It will be from one board to the other. We keep on going on training courses with these boards to try and strengthen them. One of the things that we have emphasized is that one does not just consider an offender, without getting the address of the victim’s family to be present and to have their say in the whole process. Restorative justice can then take place. We are working towards that. It is not as if we are not doing anything about it. We are doing it. There is a third training course that is coming up now for all parole board chairpersons and their vice chairpersons. We want this thing to work properly.

Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, Minister, we are dealing with a wrong question here about parole. The question deals with the current state of the rehabilitation programmes and not with parole. The members are asking about parole. Rehabilitation, in my view, Minister, is a process and not an event. Therefore rehabilitation cannot be confined to Correctional Services alone. I think society at large must be at the centre of this programme. What is the involvement of society in this matter? Does the department engage the communities to help with rehabilitation? I am saying: It is a process. You can do your work inside the prison but when this person comes out of prison, what is the engagement of society? [Time expired.]

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, the hon Bloem is quite right. Rehabilitation is a societal responsibility and therefore from the time that the offender enters our centre, we start with what is called the offender rehabilitation path. The offender knows exactly what is going to happen throughout his or her stay in our centres. We do engage a lot of communities through the parole boards and through community corrections to go out there and explain to communities what we are doing and what programmes are followed by the particular offender, when he or she was in prison. Remember when we parole people, there are two dates to consider: There is the parole date and there is the release date. If you are a parolee or probationer, you are still an offender but an offender outside of the actual structure of a prison. You have to be monitored and to be supervised. We engage communities then, whenever there are parolees or probationers so that they can monitor with us and assist us in that monitoring and make sure that the offender is always looked after, until he or she reaches the release date. On the release date they are out of the system. We do plead with communities out there to work with us and make sure that they take responsibility as well for the offenders. They don’t come from us. They come from those communities. Nk W NGWENYA: Mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe, ngiyabonga kakhulu ngempendulo yakho. Umbuzo olandela lo ebengiwubuzile uthi, ungavumelana nami yini uma ngingahlongoza ukuthi emiphakathini esihlala kuyo sibe namakomiti amancane emiphakathi azobhekelela ezokuhlunyeleliswa kwezimilo, okubizwa phecelezi community correctional forums?

Lokhu kungasiza leso sigungu ekuzameni ukulungiselela ukwamukeleka kwalaba bantu abasuke bebuya ekuvalelweni emiphakathini yethu. Ngale ndlela, ngizama ukuhlongoza kakhulu ukuthi lezi zigatshana ezihambelana nezokuhlunyeleliswa kwezimilo kufanele sibe nazo kulo lonke leli. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Ms W NGWENYA: Hon Minister, thank you very much for your response. The follow-up question is: Will you allow me to propose that in the communities where we live, we form small community committees that can look into correctional rehabilitation issues, which could be called community correctional forums?

This can help that board in trying to prepare the welcoming of those people who are from the correctional centres into our communities. This way, I am mainly trying to propose that the whole country needs to have these forums that have to do with correction and rehabilitation. Thank you.]

       Co-operation between SAPS and private security industry

1. Mr S B Ntuli (ANC) asked the Minister of Safety and Security:

   How can the SA Police Service and private security industries co- operate in combating crime? N915E

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Hon Ntuli, unfortunately you are sitting behind me, so I won’t be able to look at you as I respond. But allow me to pretend that you are sitting here in front of me; and everybody therefore who is here, is you.

For many years, the private security industry has been an important feature in South Africa in the fight against crime. The private security industry has grown quite extensively on the basis of the opening up of most space by the democratic order in South Africa. But the private security industry continues to do work that it has been doing for years - in other words, to prevent crime.

Because it is the core function of the police to prevent crime, it makes sense for the police to work together with the private security industry. There are many areas where they have been working together in the past and where they are working together now. The first one is the sharing of crime intelligence; and the second one is working jointly in operations that deal with crime. Those include, among others, protection of big events. Amongst other things, they are going to be part and parcel of the protection of 2010.

Therefore, what we are doing is to elevate that relationship, so that there is better co-ordination, given particularly the new systems that we are putting in place. I thank you very much. Mr S B NTULI: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, I thank you for your answer. Flowing from your response, can you indicate how you see the process develop from here? Do you expect any necessary legislative changes as a result of this co-operation?

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, we have been discussing some of the things that need to be done, with the private security industry. Indeed, within the context of those discussions, there are already areas where we have indicated changes that must be put in place. Therefore, those changes have to be couched within the context of new law or amendments to the law that we already have.

The first area of concern to us has been the delivery vans that are transferring, for instance, money across the country. There have to be specifications, with respect to how you construct those vehicles. Therefore, we will possibly need regulations to deal with that. They must spring from legislation. The second one is the area of the entire conditions of service relating to the private security industry, and to that extent, we are now in the process of amending our legislation, so that we can cover them as well. Of course, at the appropriate time, we will come before Parliament in order for those amendments to be endorsed. I thank you.

Mnu V B NDLOVU: Sihlalo, ikhona yini mhlonishwa imicabango yokuthi kube khona izimiselo zenqubo yokuziphatha phakathi kwamaphoyisa kanye nezinkampani zokuvikela zangasese? Umbuzo wokuqala lowo. Owesibili uthi, kubonakala sengathi izinkampani zokuvikela zangasese zinomdlandla omkhulu wokusebenza; ngabe kuyiqiniso yini lokho? Uma kuyiqiniso, singazenza kanjani ukuthi lezi zinkampani zibe phansi kokulawulwa ngamaphoyisa. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Mr V B NDLOVU: Chairperson, hon Minister, do you intend introducing the code of ethics for both the police and the private security industry? That is the first question. The second question is, it seems as if the private security industry is very eager to do the work; is that true? If that is true, why then do we want to put this industry under the control of the police?]

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, we never said, and we will not say it anytime in the future, that the private security industry will come under the control of the police. We never said that. The private security industry is private indeed, and it belongs to private entities. We will never control them. What happens is that there is a partnership that is building up, which is an important one, as I have already indicated.

Whether they have more arms than the police do, it has nothing to do with the question. The first question of course, relevant to the code of ethics, is an important one, and at this time I don’t want to prejudge the situation. I believe that what will happen in the end when we have concluded our discussions, is that we will sign a memorandum of understanding. That memorandum of understanding will therefore define how we participate in the context of co-operation one is talking about. I thank you.

Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Chairperson, hon Minister, considering the fact that you released this information which ended up on the front page of the Sunday Times, could you explain why it is that your Commissioner, Jackie Selebi, spoke so vociferously against the proposal and the myriad difficulties that it faces, when asked about the issues in the NCOP? Did you consult your national Commissioner or did the relevant unions in this regard, before making these pronouncements? If so, why are they so against the concept?

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, there is nobody who is against this concept. Anyone who expresses any view on it, which is outside of what I am talking about, is not talking about policy. What I am indicating is policy. And that policy is that we will have this co- operation. It does make sense that we work with other people who are involved in crime combating and prevention. It makes sense.

I will follow anything that makes sense. It makes sense that we work with businesspeople because they are making a contribution to the fight against crime. It makes sense that we are working with our people in the various communities in the fight against crime, because everyone who constitutes these tools that we require to fight crime, is important to us. I thank you. [Applause.]

                     Roll-out of civil legal aid

1. Mr S N Swart (ACDP) asked the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:

   (1) Whether, in view of the inability of many members of the public to afford legal representation in civil matters, she intends ensuring that civil legal aid is rolled out incrementally as financial and human resources become available; if not, why not; if so,

   (2) whether she will make a statement on the matter? N934E

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, the Legal Aid Board as established by the Legal Aid Act, Act 22 of 1969, and as amended by the Legal Aid Amendment Act, Act 20 of 1996, is a vehicle through which the state provides legal aid at its expense to indigent persons.

In terms of the Constitution, the state is obliged to provide legal aid to indigent persons who are charged with an offence, if substantial injustice would otherwise result - that is in section 35(3)(g) of the Constitution - and also children, even in civil matters, if substantial injustice would otherwise occur - that is in section 29(1)(h) of the Constitution.

Let me say that in the financial year 2006-07, 10% of new matters dealt with by the Legal Aid Board were civil matters. Those familiar with how the Legal Aid Board operates know that they do have a means test to determine those that deserve assistance. So, they are engaged in civil matters.

Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Chairperson, I was referring to the one for the Minister of Safety and Security. I left for my button but I am afraid I did not get to it on time. I beg your pardon. I believe we moved to the next question, have we?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): We have moved to the next question.

Mrs C DUDLEY: Hon Minister, firstly, may I apologise on behalf of Mr Swart for him not being in the House to take your reply to this question.

The ACDP welcomes all efforts regarding the extending of civil legal aid by the Legal Aid Board. Whilst the criminal legal aid system is functioning well, it is essential that the Legal Aid Board should not only continue its involvement in civil legal aid, but should extend that involvement and should be adequately funded to make this possible.

There cannot be any doubt that an equitable and acceptable justice system is necessary for sustainable development and that civil legal aid can serve to alleviate the plight of the poor. Civil legal aid needs to be further rolled out incrementally as financial and human resources become available.

Hon Minister, in view of the various legislative and constitutional obligations on the state to provide civil legal aid, would the state not be increasingly vulnerable to being sued if, due to financial constraints, the board decides not to provide civil legal aid in particular cases? How will these matters be dealt with?

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I do not see that happening. But, let me begin by saying that the Legal Aid Board is a success story of this government. I think what we should concentrate on is that the board should truly provide a public defence system for our people. It is important that we should consolidate the work that they are doing. They should get greater capacity and efficiency in the work that they are doing currently defending and providing opportunity for fair trial for accused persons. I think that is very important.

Mr L K JOUBERT: Madam Minister, flowing from your reply, does the Minister consider increasing the threshold for the means test for legal aid? The reason why I am asking this is that there are many people who do not qualify for legal aid but they still cannot afford a trial. And the former Chief Whip of the ruling party is on record that the Travelgate members, who pleaded guilty, did not plead guilty because they were indeed guilty but they pleaded guilty because they could not afford a trial. Thank you.

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, it is quite a mangled question. Let me say that I have had discussions with the chairperson of the Legal Aid Board. They are calling for increased capacity to handle civil cases. In other words, they want more money for that. I did ask them to come up with a position paper so that we can see what their ideas are.

In truth what we need is a proper study to consider this very matter within the broader context of the national security system. Also conceptually, we may be departing from the public defender system and we should exactly understand what we are doing. It is not only about resources. It is about the kind of society we want to have, if it is wider it may well be that there is a need to increase the threshold not of the means test but of civil matters that they can consider. But, that should be done after we have undertaken a proper study and only in the narrow sense of the position paper produced by the Legal Aid Board but, broadly speaking, within the context of the national thrust about what kind of social security system we will have because what they are calling for is about increasing the social wage.

Mr G SOLOMON: Hon Minister, I do agree with much of what you have raised regarding the Legal Aid Board itself and how they should consolidate themselves in what they are doing presently. But, nevertheless, I wish to point out that the request for civil legal aid is becoming a matter of great concern, particularly in our constituency offices, from poor communities.

May I suggest, Minister, that the department at least consider making available civil legal aid for those things which will affect fundamentally the lives of the poor, for example, the home which they might lose when they are up against big financial institutions or a person who come to us with their inheritance to say they want to protect it against maybe unscrupulous members of the family – at least these are fundamental things which will ensure that they have good quality of life and that they do not lose that. The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, yes, I think that it will come out of the broader study that we are talking about. But, let me indicate to the member that in fact we have a scheduled meeting in August with the Legal Aid Board, where we will be considering the kind of extension that we might live with and we will engage with their position paper then. But, I still think that we need to do things properly, not in an ad hoc manner, and we do need that study and we need it urgently. I think that is what we should do and we should move in that direction.

Mrs S M CAMERER: Chairperson, I was very glad to hear that the Minister indicated that in matters of legal aid one should not proceed in an ad hoc manner. What I have discovered, referring particularly to indigent women who are trying to get maintenance and divorces and in referring them to legal aid boards and the justice centre, is that they come up against the merit assessments and very often they are turned down. It doesn’t appear to be a very transparent process. There are no clear criteria that are set for merit assessment when it comes to civil matters.

Does the Minister not think that it will be desirable to have a more transparent process, particularly as it affects the poor as hon Solomons has indicated? There appears to be a very strong and clear need for assistance in civil cases to be extended to indigent people and very often these are women. Could it not be possible to introduce a more transparent process for criteria to be applied?

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, the Legal Aid Board is autonomous and reports to Parliament. They did appear before the portfolio committee about a week ago. You should have put the question to them. I think they are very open to suggestions and indeed I am sure that they will be following this discussion. And I am sure that they are very keen to hear how we are handling this particular question and you can still follow up with them informally.

They do handle maintenance cases and the report that I have is different from what you are saying. I will talk to you outside this House in time, and I will go back and look at my notes and see what the situation is.

 Visits abroad by Minister during campaign on crime in South Africa

1. Mr P J Groenewald (FF Plus) asked the Minister of Safety and Security:

   (1) (a) Which countries did he visit during his campaign abroad on crime in South Africa, (b) what was the total cost and (c) what was the message he conveyed;

   (2) whether he will make a statement on the matter? N921E

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, I visited the Netherlands and the UK. On those trips we spent R188 730,75. We go to many countries. Those were not the first and will not be the last countries that we will visit to discuss issues of crime, because crime is globalised. And because crime is globalised, we discuss how, collectively as countries across the world, we can tackle that issue. So indeed I have gone and discussed with law enforcement agencies, with the officials and the ministers in charge of crime fighting in those countries, to look at new systems they may have and to raise the issue of how, therefore, we can raise the level of our contribution to the fight against crime.

In some countries we sign memoranda of understanding that underpin the collaboration and co-operation that we discuss. That was the situation in the Netherlands and the UK and in countries where I previously visited. Thank you.

Mr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Voorsitter, as ek luister na die antwoord van die agb Minister, dan sê hy eintlik die media het hom verkeerd aangehaal, want die media het gesê die agb Minister het die lande besoek om beleggings na Suid-Afrika te lok. Nou kom die agb Minister en hy sê hy het gegaan om te gaan kyk of daar ander metodes is wat hy kan vind om misdaad in Suid-Afrika te bestry.

Sê die agb Minister dan in die eerste plek dat die media hom verkeerd aangehaal het, want dit is tog sekerlik die taak van die Departemente van Buitelandse Sake en Handel en Nywerheid wat handelsmissies in die buiteland het om beleggers na Suid-Afrika te trek?

Dan wil ek ook by die agb Minister weet, is dit korrek dat ’n parlementslid van Brittanje vir die agb Minister gesê het sy glo nie wat hy sê nie, want dit is wat in die media gerapporteer was, en wat het sy nie geglo wat die agb Minister gesê het nie?

Dankie, Voorsitter. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, listening to the hon Minister, one realises that he is actually saying that he was quoted incorrectly by the media, because the media said the hon Minister visited the countries to attract investments to South Africa. Now the hon Minister comes and says he went to see whether there were other methods he could find to fight crime in South Africa.

Is the hon Minister therefore saying, in the first place, that the media quoted him inaccurately, because surely it is the responsibility of the Departments of Foreign Affairs and Trade and Industry, which have trade missions overseas, to attract investors to South Africa?

Then I also want to know from the hon Minister whether it is correct that a British Member of Parliament said to the hon Minister that she did not believe what he said, because that was what was reported in the media, and what did she not believe that the hon Minister had said?

Thank you, Chairperson.]

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: If you believe that it is the task of the Department of Foreign Affairs to deal with crime, I don’t believe that. If you believe that the only way in which you can get information is from the media and not directly from the people who are carrying responsibility, I don’t believe that.

Your belief systems are completely different from my belief systems and we are never going to be speaking the same language. Today, tomorrow and forever. [Interjections.]

Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Minister, it’s all very well going about Europe on this charm offensive, telling people that the crime statistics here aren’t as bad as in fact they are, somehow believing that international investors do not investigate the security situation before buying into a country.

When are you going to tour this country to tell South Africans that the crime situation isn’t as bad as they believe and what exactly your plan is? Let me take this opportunity to extend an invitation to you right now to address my Inkwazi constituency in KwaZulu-Natal. Come to Richards Bay and tell the widows and orphans there that you have it all under control. [Interjections.]

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Thank you very much for the invitation. I am also going to invite you to the work that I do. Let me just talk about this trip to the UK you are talking about. I just want to talk about the period just before that trip. Before I went to the UK I was in a village near Queenstown called Ejojweni. I did not see you there. After that I was in Mpumalanga in a small area of the townships there - I did not see you there. [Interjections.] When I came back at 3 o’clock in the morning on that particular day I was walking the streets with the people of Jabulani - I did not see you there. [Interjections.] On that same day I travelled to Kuruman - I did not see you there. I did not see you in Mamelodi when I came back, but at least you have an opportunity. I am inviting you at 6 o’clock this Friday morning to come with me to Duduza where I will be talking to people about all of these things. Apart from that, I am going to give you a list of the dates when I was in Richards Bay and I’ll say on all of those dates you were never there. [Applause.]

Mr J SITHOLE: I want to say I did not see her in Alexandra when we were there. [Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Hon member, that is not a point of order.

Mr V B NDLOVU: Chairperson, let us not talk about seeing or beliefs and so on. Let us talk about what is happening in the House. Minister, you said you went overseas. I just want to ask two questions: Firstly, were you satisfied with your trip, in other words, was your trip a success; and were there any promises that can be implemented as soon as possible, and if there were any, when will they be implemented? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Hon Ndlovu, as I said, I’ve been to many countries and what we have discussed are practical programmes that we have been putting in place over the years. I have indicated what I went there to do and the responses were very good. Whenever we go and share experiences with people everywhere in the world and in the majority of instances in this House, many of the people who are in this House understand what we are doing. Therefore, there has been an understanding and an acceptance of the work that we do.

The few people who do not understand these things, we are going to try and engage with them. We believe that there will come a time when they will say indeed, there is good work that is being done. Therefore, every time we engage with people and ask them to assist, there is no one who say they will not assist. They do assist, they understand. I am sure the hon members here will understand that there is a historical link between this country and the Netherlands and people in the Netherlands understand that.

There is a historical link between this country and the people in the UK and the people in the UK appreciate that. If there are people here who do not appreciate the fact that we need to build these partnerships across the globe, then it is unfortunate, because it is part and parcel of our policy of continually establishing partnerships with people who have the same view as us with regard to how we develop our country.

Mr M S MOATSHE: Minister, in your experience and your contact with foreign governments and companies, do they share the negative perception of Mr Groenewald; and will you please share with the House the role and responsibility of public representatives in addressing perceptions around crime?

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Well, Chairperson, there is a lot of goodwill that is accorded South Africa across the globe. It does not matter where you go. People will sit down and listen to you because they want to help. There are others who believe that South Africa can help them. They are inviting us to come and assist them in trying to resolve some of the problems they have.

There is a lot of goodwill for South Africa inside the United Nations and there are many countries of the world who say that South Africa is doing a good job and that, where they can, they will help to ensure that we are able to remove whatever obstacles we have in order for us to progress and therefore play the role that we need to play in the world, which includes the building of peace and stability.

Therefore, you will not find any negative feelings against South Africa. Every time we sit down with people, we find they think very highly of the country and they don’t stop talking about what we have put together in the country over just 13 years. And these are people who come from the older democracies. They believe that we are moving in the right direction.

Many people in South Africa, the majority of our people, also say the same thing. That is why election after election they believe that these people who are sitting on this side are doing a good job to the benefit of our people. [Applause.]

          Results of case-flow management process in courts

1. Ms F I Chohan-Khota (ANC) asked the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:

   Whether the case-flow management process introduced in courts to ensure reduced case cycle periods in criminal matters has yielded positive results, particularly in reducing the time taken to finalise criminal cases; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? N916E

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, hon member, I am pleased to confirm in this House that the case-flow management system introduced is beginning to yield positive results. The finalisation rate achieved by the regional courts during 2006 clearly indicates an improved performance. They have managed to finalise on average 2,7% more cases per month than in the previous year, with an increase of 8,9% during the month of December, which is usually known for its low productivity. These are the figures that I have.

During an audit conducted on outstanding cases countrywide at the end of November 2006, it was determined that the cycle times of cases in the regional courts had been reduced from the previous year. The cycle times of cases from first appearance in the district court to first appearance in the regional court comprise, on average, five months. From the date of first appearance in the regional courts to finalisation, on average, takes 11 months. A total cycle time of 16 months is therefore maintained nationally on regional court cases. This is an improvement on the cycle time of 20 months that was recorded for regional courts in 2005. In the High Courts, it is clear that during 2006 an amount of 84% of cases had been finalised within three years of first appearance in the district courts, compared to a mere 53% the previous year. The audit on outstanding cases conducted at the end of November 2006 indicated that the cycle times of all High Court cases had shortened by three months.

Although the cycle times, according to outstanding cases, amount to an average of 29 months from the date of first district court appearance, the cycle times on finalised cases are much shorter, because of cases that are being pushed forward.

All the above have been achieved through the following measures. Regarding the implementation of the integrated case-flow management system, we have provided guidelines to courts and all stakeholders. In other words, we have sought to make the units more efficient. We also have the e-scheduler which has helped us improve our system. As you know, we are rolling out the e- scheduler to all our courts. We have established a focused case-backlog reduction project through which additional resources are provided to priority court sites where there are high numbers of outstanding cases. This has also contributed to the reduction. Of course, there is also improved governance through the establishment of provincial and national governance structures to oversee the case-flow management project.

Thus, through continuous interaction with the judiciary, we have sought to really improve. Many may also be aware that the analogue court recording equipment in courts is being replaced with digital court recording equipment. This has also helped. Thank you.

Ms F I CHOHAN-KHOTA: Thank you, Minister, for that response. It certainly is heartening to note that more cases are being finalised by our courts notwithstanding that the tools to promote efficient case-flow management have not been fully implemented. Hopefully, once they have been fully implemented, we will see more positive indications in this regard.

It’s particularly pleasing that the judiciary have now come on board with regard to case-flow management. It has however come to my attention, Minister, that in some regional courts magistrates set down only two cases per day, not knowing they are trial-ready. This often leads to cases falling flat, empty court rooms and a waste of court time. I wonder if the Minister is aware of this particular difficulty and what it is that you and the department hope to do to rectify this untenable situation?

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, ideally, the prosecutors and magistrates should be working together. They should provide leadership themselves. In other words, they should draw from the leadership within both the prosecutorial authority and the magistracy to deal with that. I must say I have picked up this anomaly. It was highlighted by the presentation of the NPA before the portfolio committee. It is a matter that we will follow up.

Mrs S M CAMERER: Chair, the Minister mentioned the NPA and the National Director of Public Prosecutions does seem to have a somewhat different perspective on this issue, because only three weeks ago he told the portfolio committee that overall, case cycle times had increased. He indicated that finalisation rates had dropped in all the courts. In fact, he said 38% of all cases in the High Courts had been on the roll for more than a year and that backlogs had increased dramatically. So it seems that the results of case-flow management have been slow to materialise. So, clearly, it’s for this reason, Minister, that you have established these backlog courts that are run by magistrates that you brought out of retirement to deal with the backlogs. I wonder if you could indicate to us, countrywide, how many backlog courts are in effect operating at regional and local levels, and how many magistrates you have brought out of retirement to perform this important task? Could you indicate to us whether the Saturday courts were successful in dealing with the backlogs and speeding up the process in the courts? Could you indicate whether you intend to reintroduce Saturday courts as part of this effort to clear the backlogs?

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, you see, the Deputy Minister is here to remind me that, in fact, you have asked this question and it is a separate question. But, let me go back to the first part of your question or part remark. The NPA and us are one. They are looking at the system and we have working groups. In fact, it’s that long-standing working group that is then linked into what is now the broader JCPS cluster and business group. So it is ongoing work and, frankly, I think it is a matter of emphasis.

What I am reporting here is an overall broader and bigger picture of success. But I do not dispute that they could pick up in the system some weaknesses such as where we have moved from the tradition of prosecutors placing the cases to the magistrates. Of course, when you change, there is a bit of fallout when you are setting up systems. We will look into it. I am not denying or contesting that it’s happening or not happening. What I want to put across though is that we work very closely with the NPA. The database that they are using is the same one that we use. So I think it could be a question of reading and emphasis.

Ms C B JOHNSON: Chair, Minister, the e-scheduler is a very valuable tool in order to assess case-flow management. By when can we expect to see the e- scheduler rolled out and operational in all our courts?

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, the last time I received a report, which is about a week ago, we had rolled out to 444 courts. Our target is ambitious: By July we should have rolled out to all courts. I think what is important and which may be a challenge is actually the training of data collectors. That’s the challenge, really.

        Role of communities in rehabilitation of ex-prisoners

1. Ms W Ngwenya (ANC) asked the Minister of Correctional Services:

   What role can communities play in promoting the rehabilitation and acceptance of ex-prisoners back into the community? N937E

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: MaNgwenya, I also wanted to add something. I go to prisons all over this country, where we try to rehabilitate prisoners and stop crime. Minister Nqakula, as I went to these prisons to stop crime and to restore stability, I also did not see her.

I am inviting you to come with me to one of my centres, because those are areas where we also try to stop crime. Then I can stand here and say that I saw you.

MaNgwenya, the department’s perspective on corrections provides fundamentals for our new strategy and our new direction.

Le nto siyenzela ukuba uluntu lwethu lube yinxalenye yokwamkela la mabanjwa xa ebuya entolongweni. Nathi siyazama ukuwakhuthaza la mabanjwa ukuba abe nento ayenzayo ukuze akwazi ukwamkeleka eluntwini. Umzekelo, phaya eMdantsane iimbethi-manqindi zethu ezingamabanjwa ziyaphuma ejele ziye kudlala amanqindi ngaphandle, zifundise nabantwana ngalo mdlalo, zandule ukubuyela ngaphakathi. Ngale ndlela zincedisana nathi ekuqhubeleni phambili ululeko. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[We are doing this thing so that our society could be part of welcoming these prisoners when they come out of prison. We are also trying to encourage these prisoners to do something, so that they could be accepted by society. For example, in Mdantsane our boxers who are prisoners go out of prison to box outside, and also teach children about this sport, and then they go back to prison. In this way they are helping us to move forward with rehabilitation.]

It is against this background, MaNgwenya, that the department has embarked on a project that we refer to as “operation masibambisane” and not “masibambane”.

Masincedisane kulo mcimbi siwenzayo ukwenzela ukuba ululeko luze kubheka phaya. Abantu ekuhlaleni bawamkele la mabanjwa, ukuze thina siwenzele nokuba ngookopolotyeni abancinane. Zonke ezo zizinto esizijongayo sisenzela ukuba angabuyeli entolongweni kwakhona. Enkosi. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[Let us assist one another in the work we are doing so that rehabilitation can progress. The community should accept these prisoners, so that we can create small corporations for them. These are all the things we consider so that they do not come back to prison again. Thank you.]

Ms W NGWENYA: Yes, Chairperson, I do have a follow-up question.

Sihlalo, nginombuzo ovuka empendulweni kaNgqongqoshe. Mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe, ngiyabonga kakhulu ngempendulo yakho emnandi nezwakalayo kepha edinga ukwengezelelwa. Mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe, ungavumelana nami yini uma ngingahlongoza ukuthi emiphakathini esihlala kuyo sibe namakomidi amancane emiphakathi azobhekelela ezokuhlunyeleliswa kwezimilo, okubizwa phecelezi community correctional forums?

Lokhu kungasiza lezo zigungu ekuzameni ukulungisa nokwamakuleka kwalaba bantu abasuke bebuya ekuvalelweni emiphakathini yethu. Ngokwami, ngizama ukuhlongoza kakhulu ukuthi lezi zigungu ezihambelana nezokuhlunyeleliswa kwezimilo kufanele sibe nazo kulo lonke elakuleli. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Chairperson, I have a follow-up question from the Minister’s response. Hon Minister, thank you very much for your sweet and understandable response which needs some supplements though. The follow-up question is: Will you allow me to propose that in the communities where we live, we form small community committees that can look into correctional rehabilitation issues, which can be called community correctional forums?

This can help that board in trying to prepare the welcoming of those people who are from the correctional centres into our communities. This way, I am mainly trying to propose that the whole country needs to have these forums that have to do with correction and rehabilitation. Thank you.]

UMPHATHISWA WEENKONZO ZOLULEKO: MaNgwenya, ngoku siyawuvala mpela lo mcimbi. Kukho amaqonga ogcino-cwangco oluntu okanye ii-community police forums kulo lonke eli, adibanisa la masebe, elikaTat’ uNqakula, elezoBulungisa kunye neleMicimbi yezeKhaya. Ibhunga loluntu loluleko - likhona elinye elilapha, MaNgwenya; uze ukhe uhambe nam siye kulibona; bendiyile kusasa nje, ndiye kulibona - lenza kanye loo nto.

Siyafuna ukuba zibe kho ezi komiti zincinci zokuncedisa, ukwenzela ukuba la mabanjwa azi xa ephakathi koluntu ukuba ajongiwe, ayancediswa ukuze nawo asebenzisane noluntu. Abantu abahlala kwiindawo apho kungekho mabanjwa akhutshwe ngengqawule khona kunye nabo babesakuba ngamabanjwa, abantu abafana nooJames, gxebe, ohlonophekileyo uMnu Selfe, soze bayazi loo nto ngoba abekho aba bantu ndibachaze ngentla apha kwezi ndawo bahlala kuzo. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: MaNgwenya, now we are completely rounding off this matter. There are order-keeping community forums or community police forums all over the country which include these departments such as Mr Nqakula’s, the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development and the Department of Home Affairs. There is a Council for Rehabilitation – MaNgwenya, you must come with me so that we can see it - I have been there this morning, to see it - which are doing just that.

We do want these small committees to exist to help, so that the prisoners should know when they are in the midst of the society that they are being looked after and that they are being helped so that they also co-operate with the society. People who stay in places where there are no prisoners who have been released on parole and ex-convicts, people like James - I beg your pardon, the hon Mr Selfe - will never know that because the people who I have explained above are not found in the areas where they live.]

Yes, I’ve corrected myself.

Zikhona ezo komiti, noGatsheni uyazazi. Kodwa siyafuna ukuba zibe khona kuluntu lonke apho kukho abantu ababesakuba ngamabanjwa. [Those committees do exist, even Gatsheni knows about them. But we want them to be in every society where there are ex-convicts.]

Mr J SELFE: Chairperson, it’s always a pleasure to ask the Minister a question, particularly when he is in serious mood. But on a more serious note, it is so, as the Minister has correctly said, that offenders are more easily rehabilitated and reabsorbed into the communities from which they come if they have made reparation to those communities. The Minister knows that I believe that prisons work where prisoners work. What I want to ask is: When is it anticipated that we will be in a position where nonviolent criminals can go and work in those communities on a regular basis to demonstrate that they are paying back their debt to society to those communities on a much wider scale than the very limited number that currently work out of our correctional centres?

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Well, seriously now, I’ve always been serious about my work. It is very true that we would like to see more and more offenders, who are not a danger to society, work in most of these societies.

We have extended this to most management areas to make sure that those offenders that are not a danger to society do work. The MEC for Education in the Eastern Cape and I have an agreement, which also covers every province, that whenever a school or a church is to be built, we should use offenders from the nearest centres. That’s what we have done in Gugulethu, Mitchells Plain and on the other side of Bonteheuwel, where we are building churches.

We give labour through some of our nonviolent offenders. We are expanding this all over the country so that our nonviolent offenders can work. We have gardens in Khayelitsha. We have adopted an orphanage in Ngqeleni. With these I am trying to say: Get them out to do some work so that they can be accepted back into society when it is time for them to be released. This would then give us an opportunity to deal with those that are violent and see what we can do to try and change them.

However, we must not be naïve and think that all offenders will gladly go into programmes. Some offenders will not go into programmes because they just feel that they do not want to do that.

We are trying to coax them to do that though, because we don’t want anybody to be lying around and doing absolutely nothing. Allandale is one of our projects where they have built houses. In Mpumalanga the offenders have built a house for an old lady who did not have one. So I am making an appeal to all our centres around the country that where there is work to be done, go and do that using offenders.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Hon members, the time allocated for questions has expired, and outstanding replies received will be printed in the Hansard. That concludes the business of the day. [Interjections.] Order!

There’s an outstanding matter that I’m not aware of. My apologies for that! Order! It has just been drawn to my attention that there is a notice of a motion that we need to deal with.

See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.

                          NOTICE OF MOTION Mrs C DUDLEY: On behalf of the ACDP, I give notice that I shall move:

That the House calls for a debate on the pros and cons regarding suggestions that the number of provinces in South Africa be reduced from nine to four, with specific reference to the impact such a policy would have on democracy and service delivery. Thank you.

The House adjourned at 17:07. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Assembly

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs on the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Protocol on Facilitation of Movement of Persons, dated 22 May 2007:

   The Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Protocol on Facilitation of Movement of Persons, referred to it, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Protocol.

Request to be considered.

Report of the Portfolio Committee on Finance on Budget Vote 12: Statistics South Africa dated 23 May 2007:

The Portfolio Committee having considered Budget Vote 12: Statistics South Africa, reports as follows:

1. Introduction

The Portfolio Committee on Finance met on 18 May 2007 to consider the Strategic Plan 2005/2006-2009/2010 and the Work Programme 2007/2009- 2009/2010 of Statistics South Africa. The Portfolio Committee on Finance exercises oversight of National Treasury in line with the Constitutional mandate set out in section 55(2) of the Constitution and section 27 (4) of the Public Finance Management Act.

The hearing followed a briefing by the Minister of Finance to the Committee on 10 May 2007 that provided the policy context for the Strategic Plans of the National Treasury, Statistics South Africa and South African Revenue Service.

The Strategic Plan and the Work Programme of Statistics South Africa were presented by the Statistician-General. A discussion followed which is recorded below.

1. The Community Survey

Regarding the service delivery aspects of the Community Survey, the Committee enquired what components of service delivery the Survey attempted to measure.

The Statistician-General replied that access to social services (health and education), social grants, as well as basic services such as water, electricity and sanitation were measured in the Community Survey.

1. Large Sample Survey on Agriculture

3.1 Regarding the 2007 release of the Large Sample Survey on Agriculture, which was conducted in 2005 with the assistance of the Department of Agriculture, the Committee enquired after the main objectives of this survey, as well as what the main shortcomings of earlier such surveys had been.

    The Statistician-General pointed out that South Africa was in a
    fairly unique position in the importance of minerals industries as a
    share of the domestic product. In many developing countries
    agriculture was a more significant driver of growth and employment.


    He noted that it was not that difficult to obtain financial
    information on the agricultural sector, but that it was not easy to
    obtain accurate and detailed information on what was actually being
    produced. The large sample survey was intended to assist in
    obtaining better production information. The Statistician-General
    emphasised that a better understanding of this sector from the
    production side would also facilitate improved sectoral
    interventions.    3.2      Regarding the use of a posted questionnaire for the agricultural
    survey, the Committee enquired whether the use of such a system, as
    opposed to an enumerator-based one, would generate results of
    sufficient quality.

    The Statistician-General indicated that it was somewhat misleading
    to refer to such a survey as a ‘postal’ survey. Enumerators still
    visited respondents and made use of telephone calls where necessary,
    such as in cases where the posted questionnaire was not responded
    to. The protocol for such surveys was to use a postal questionnaire
    initially, but to make visits to guarantee quality where postal
    responses were not good enough.

4 Income and Expenditure Survey

The Committee noted the decreased allocations to the Income and expenditure Survey (IES) and asked after the reasons for this reduction, given that activities associated with the IES were continuing.

The Statistician-General indicated that the most significant expenditures on the Income and Expenditure Survey had been on activities associated with the collection of data, which was now completed. Work had now shifted to the processing and analysis of data, which required fewer resources than the collection phase.

1. The Poverty Survey

Regarding the poverty survey and the issue of establishing a poverty line for South Africa, the Committee enquired when a clear definition of what was meant by poverty would be established. The Statistician-General noted that no single appropriate understanding of poverty existed. Statistics South Africa could provide methodologies and technical assistance for the conceptualising of poverty, but broad and robust discussion in the political sphere was and would be required to agree on a particular poverty conceptualisation and a particular poverty line. He emphasised that the function of Statistics South Africa was too accurately, comprehensively and consistently measure social and economic phenomena, and to provide technical advice on issues related to such measurement, but not to make the actual determination of what should be measured.

Regarding the technical aspects of establishing a poverty line, the Statistician-General noted further that challenges existed. For example, poverty was a multi-dimensional concept which included the extent of access to services. But the extent of access to services was in many cases also still contested in South Africa. Thus a poverty line which sought to factor in access to services, and other determinants of wellbeing, would have to engage with these problems too.

Furthermore, if one used an internationally comparable income-based measure of absolute poverty, such as a dollar per day, then one also had to grapple with the problem of purchasing power parity. From a poverty- measurement perspective, what mattered was how much one could buy with a given amount of local currency: this often differed significantly from the purchasing power suggested by simply converting currencies at prevailing exchange rates.

1. Inequality

The Committee commented that the emphasis on attempts to measure poverty was welcomed, but that perhaps it was equally important to define and engage further with the measurement of inequality, given South Africa’s history as well as the Minister of Finance’s emphasis his 2007 Budget Speech on human life having equal worth. Such an emphasis on inequality would accordingly also try to measure the impact of government operations on inequality.

The Statistician General agreed, and referred to discussions with the Statistics Council, where it was agreed that the approach of Statistics South Africa to measuring poverty needed to also enable better understanding of inequality levels and trends in South Africa.

The Statistician-General noted that, in general terms, the links between poverty, inequality and wellbeing were complex and inevitably entailed value judgements about the desirability of particular outcomes. For example, if the incomes of the rich increased by 30% and those of the poor by 15%, this would generate decreased poverty levels but increased inequality levels. Whether this was desirable or not was a question of value judgements.

He noted that the Income and Expenditure Survey was in fact a tool that allowed measurement of relative inequality and that, in post-apartheid South Africa, significant investment had been made by Statistics South Africa in household surveys in order to try to better measure inequality.

1. Employment Statistics

The Committee referred to the increased numbers of jobs created in the South African economy since 2001. The Committee noted, however, that it was not always clear what kinds of jobs these were. The Committed noted, for example, that some 167 000 of these jobs were recorded as being in agriculture in the Eastern Cape, and that over the same period the agricultural sector had contracted by a third, making a negative contribution to GDP. Assuming therefore that many of these jobs were in fact subsistence-orientated, rather than being sustainable sources of income, perhaps more effort needed to be devoted to establishing a benchmark of what constituted an adequate ‘job’. The working definition of a ‘job’ needed to be credible to the broader public, who would then also treat employment statistics with greater confidence.

The Statistician-General agreed that more intervention was required to determine what kinds of jobs were being referred to, and that in the case of the surveys referred to the question posed by enumerators merely asked respondents whether they had worked for at least one hour in the last seven days. However, even if many of these jobs in the agricultural sector were not in fact sustainable, it remained important to ask what the Department of Agriculture had done to achieve such a result, since they appeared to stem from some form of intervention.

The Statistician-General also noted that, although there was a significant increase in agricultural subsistence employment, in fact the sectors which had added most to the job creation being discussed were those of tradeables and financial services, and particularly technical and managerial positions within these sectors. Thus the accelerated rate of job creation could not be attributed solely to increased subsistence employment

1. The Producer Price Index

With reference to the re-weighting of the producer price index (PPI) the Committee enquired after the motivation for such a re-weighting.

The Statistician-General noted that in some respects the PPI was the most sensitive Statistics South Africa release as it was the basis of employment contracts and monetary policy. He noted that the PPI was as important as the Consumer Price Index (CPI) but that it received less attention. The PPI however played a critical role as a lead indicator of inflation trends.

As with the agricultural sector, it was comparatively easy for Statistics South Africa to obtain financial data from producers, but it was very difficult to get good information on what was actually being produced. The PPI re-weighting attempted to ensure that the products used and their weighting within the index reflected the current state of production in South Africa.

1. The Two Economies and the Informal Sector

Regarding economic statistics, the Committee enquired whether government programmes aimed at addressing the problem of the ‘two economies’ were in fact phasing out the existence of a second economy or perpetuating the problem.

The Statistician-General noted that many challenges still remained in measuring the South African formal sector, and that measuring the small business and informal sector was a huge challenge for Statistics South Africa towards which more resources would have to be invested. He noted that, at present, different economists had different working estimates of the extent of the informal economy, and that these were intuitive rather than rigourously derived. Statistics South Africa had had some conversations with statistical counterparts in countries like Brazil whose economies were also characterised by significant informal economic activities.

However, the 2000 and 2005 Survey of Employers and Self-Employed (SESE) had provided some interesting details on enterprises in the small and informal sectors. Not the least of these was that they typically relied on financing from families and mashonisas (informal micro-lenders charging high interest rates) rather than government or formal financial institutions.

1. Quality of Information on Businesses

The Committee referred to work done by the Peruvian economist Hernando de Soto regarding the costs of complying with legislation to start small businesses in many developing countries. The Committee enquired whether Statistics South Africa had looked at the costs of starting a business in South Africa and the extent to which these costs served as a constraint to entrepreneurship or to formal registration of businesses.

The Statistician-General noted that some studies showed that South Africa compared quite favourably when it came to ease of doing business. He noted, however, that reliable, comprehensive information on the number of businesses registered was a challenge. He indicated that SARS, DTI, National Treasury and Stats SA would give different estimates as to how many registered businesses were active in the South African economy. It was, for example, problems with generating a rigourous estimate which also made assessment of the existing South African tax gap difficult.

In general the problem was that the existing information and administrative systems did not provide the information required and that these needed to be updated. There was a fragmentation of information on business registration, for example, with information collected in various forms for various purposes. The Statistician-General noted that data gaps pertaining to business registration in South Africa constituted the biggest single risk to the quality of data produced by Statistics South Africa. No collecting agencies currently had a system for connecting information between agencies. Coordination was thus needed, and a common position was needed on how to achieve integration. A core group of senior staff from SARS, Statistics South Africa and the DTI did meet to discuss this issue, but more resources and better leadership were needed to take these discussions towards concrete outputs. The lack of a coordinated and integrated information system also made it more difficult for Parliament to exercise its oversight function effectively. The time was right to address this challenge, as now, in distinction to previous periods, the technology, resources and conceptual requirements were available.

The Statistician-General welcomed further recommendations from the Committee in this regard.

The Committee responded that Statistics South Africa should provide direction and technical analysis for this problem of standardising the information collected and maintained by various public bodies.

The Committee further noted that, indeed, there were divergences between the information kept by, for example, the Department of Education and what one would find at grassroots level, and that there could be various reasons for this. In the case of some schools this might be due to principals submitting wrong numbers in order to receive larger transfers and the like, and the underlying issue was one of inculcating appropriate values. The Committee emphasised, however, that someone needed to take the lead, given the existing figures, and say: these are the best numbers we currently have. Statistics South Africa needed to play this role.

The Statistician-General noted that the time was right for implementing a National Statistics System (NSS) which would define data across society and which could, as it were, be regarded as the statistics equivalent of the Public Finance Management Act. One aspect of the development of this would have to be identifying the impediments a department faced in collecting and providing standardised information.

1. Recommendations

Based on its deliberations the Committee recommends that the House request that Statistics South Africa:

11.1 Table a report with specific time frames for implementation of the National Statistics System. The challenges of coordinating and integrating information needed to receive particular attention in the development of the National Statistics System.

Report to be considered.

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Finance on Budget Vote 8: National Treasury dated 23 May 2007:

The Portfolio Committee having considered Budget Vote 8: National
Treasury, including the Strategic Plan of the South African Revenue
Services for 2007/2008–2009/2010 reports as follows:


1.      Introduction

The Portfolio Committee on Finance met on 22 May 2007 to consider the
Strategic Plan Update 2007/2008 of the National Treasury. The Portfolio
Committee on Finance exercises oversight of National Treasury in line
with the Constitutional mandate set out in section 55(2) of the
Constitution and section 27 (4) of the Public Finance Management Act.

The hearing followed a briefing by the Minister of Finance to the
Committee on 10 May 2007 to provide the policy context for the Strategic
Plans of the National Treasury, Statistics South Africa and South
African Revenue Service.

The Strategic Plan Update was presented by Mr Lesetjakganyago, the
Director General at National Treasury. A discussion followed which is
recorded below.

2.      Supply Chain Management Framework

The Committee enquired after progress in the implementation of supply
chain management requirements by departments as set out in the Public
Finance Management Act (PFMA)


The Director General pointed out that it was the responsibility of
National Treasury to develop a supply chain policy and framework but
that Departments needed to adapt the framework to their specific
requirements, and that this was the responsibility of the accounting
officer of the Department.


2. Value for Money


Regarding the effectiveness of the budget process and value for money,
the Committee enquired whether South Africans were getting value for
money from all departments that receive funds from the fiscus. The
Committee also enquired whether they were getting value for money from
National Treasury itself.


The Director General indicated that in some respects it was still too
early to tell. National Treasury looked at spending in a sector and
asked what outcomes resulted from the money allocated and how this
performance compared to that of other countries that were spending
equivalent sums of money on these sectors. However, National Treasury
could not conduct such reviews by itself, but needed the support of
departments who needed to provide service delivery information to which
they could then be held accountable for performance.


Part of the problem was related to the inherent difficulties when one
shifted focus from budgetary allocations to the impact of spending. The
Director General provided the example of the learnership allowances,
which were launched in 2001. National Treasury knew that the initiative
was operational in the sense that companies were claiming these tax
expenditures. It was also possible to determine whether in fact the
training against which claims were being made took place. But it was
very difficult to say whether trainees were now able to do what the
training was supposed to equip them to do.


Government consisted of many departments with many differing functions,
objectives and responsibilities. Certainly the budgeting process could
and had to help ensure that public resources were allocated in
accordance with society’s preferences so as to maximise welfare, but no
single or simple indicator existed to measure performance in this
regard. No Index exists to determine value for money, and a multitude of
indicators had to be relied on instead.


The emphasis on developing a framework for monitoring and evaluation of
performance across government underlined the importance of continuing to
improve the content and quality of information. The Director General
referred to a new initiative which would set departmental guidelines for
performance information and which would influence how budget information
was organised in future.


The capacity to monitor departmental spending by National Treasury is
limited.  National Treasury could compel departments to align their
strategic plans and budgets, but Parliament and the broader public
needed to interrogate annual reports and performance measures to ensure
that departments did deliver.

4.      Skills Shortages

The Committee noted that skills shortages acted as a binding constraint
on development in South Africa and enquired what National Treasury was
doing to address the skills shortage. The Committee also referred in
this regard to investment in the built environment and the ongoing talk
of a lack of capacity in South Africa to do this.


The Director General noted that National Treasury was responsible for
macroeconomic policy, which required a careful coordination of fiscal
and monetary policy measures. He noted that macroeconomic measures were
working so well that there was a temptation to try to solve all sorts of
problems through such measures. However, the skills problem, along with
a number of other challenges, required micro-analysis and micro-
measures, and National Treasury was enhancing its ability to engage at
this level.
Consistent with such micro-approaches, JIPSA had in the last 18 months
focused on a specific skills set which was in high demand and short
supply. This included artisans, engineers, town and regional planners,
and transport planners. Under the banner of JIPSA discussions had also
been held with other countries on skills transfers, as well as, amongst
others, with the engineering faculties of South African universities.


The Director General also noted that globally many countries were
competing for the same stock of scarce skills. He indicated that, for
example, Irish and New Zealand firms were advertising in South African
newspapers for particular skills.

5.      The FIFA World Cup

5.1     The Committee enquired, with regard to the FIFA World Cup,
    whether South Africa was remaining within the allocation of R 8.4
    billion, given the Deputy Minister of Finance’s announcement that R
    1.9 billion would be allocated this year to stadium’s being
    completed ahead of schedule. The Committee therefore wished to know
    whether this amount was part of the original R 8.4 billion or
    whether it represented a top-up of this allocation.

    The Director General indicated that progress with the construction
    of stadiums had been faster than expected, and consequently funds
    allocated to the outer years of the MTEF were brought forward to
    this year: this would be included in the adjustments budget and
    would have to be approved by Parliament.


5.2     The Committee referred to the Nelson Mandela metro, which
    reportedly was R 300 million short for meeting its World Cup
    obligations, and enquired whether National Treasury was aware of
    this.

    The Director General emphasised that, as far as National Treasury
    was concerned, the allocation was adequate to meeting World Cup
    requirements National Treasury was providing what would be required.
    Any expenditure beyond meeting the FIFA World Cup requirements would
    have to be funded from municipalities own budget.

6.      Private Public Partnerships, State Owned Enterprises and Risk
   Transfer

6.1     The Committee enquired about the kind of risk analysis
    government conducts when it puts money into certain projects. The
    Committee noted that it was astonishing how much money SAA, for
    example, required in order to become competitive, which raised the
    question of when enough was enough. The PBMR raised similar
    concerns: R 6 billion had been allocated over the MTEF from the
    fiscus, but to date no private sector investment had been
    forthcoming, even though government had been confident that such
    investment would appear. Lastly, the Committee enquired after the
    case of Denel.

    The Director General noted that the first Public-Private
    Partnerships (PPP’s) were a learning experience and cost South
    Africa a great deal. At the time the National Treasury did not even
    have a PPP unit, so there was virtually no capacity to evaluate the
    risk of partnerships.


    PPP’s entailed hard negotiations with the private sector, which had
    mastered quantifying, packaging and shifting risk. Government needed
    to ensure that risk was appropriately shared. In subsequent PPP’s
    National Treasury had learned to make significant risk transfers to
    the private sector and shield the fiscus from excessive risk.


    Regarding state-owned enterprises (SOE’s), the Director General
    noted that government had put significant money into SAA in the form
    of guarantees which could be called. It was very difficult to know
    when to stop. The fundamental question was whether to cut one’s
    losses or continue supporting a turnaround strategy in the hope that
    a turnaround would indeed be achieved.


    In the case of Denel, National Treasury had stopped at R 8 billion.
    In the case of the PBMR it needed to be emphasised that no new
    technology came without risk. It was when investors arrived on the
    scene that risk began to be shared appropriately, though to date
    this had not occurred so the risk remained with government. The PBMR
    did have a number of potential advantages over traditional nuclear
    technology: it was safer, cleaner and generated less waste which
    could be converted to dangerous products.


    The Director General noted that in the case of the PBMR R 6 billion
    would be spent over the next three years, of which half would come
    from National Treasury and half from Eskom and external investors.
    He emphasised that in the coming year the questions around longer-
    term financing needed to be looked at in more detail, and that
    clarification of investment and ownership was required, but that it
    would take time for these matters to be negotiated.


6.2     The Committee enquired specifically after the situation of
    Denel, and wanted to know whether Denel was going to come back to
    the fiscus for more money. The Committee referred to the Estimates
    of National Expenditure where a transfer of R 933 million was listed
    as a final disbursement. Given that National Treasury was exercising
    financial oversight of Denel, how effective was the National
    Treasury system at picking up any departures on the part of Denel
    from the agreed turnaround strategy and intervening timeously?

    The Director General noted that when faced with SOE’s that were in
    trouble, government essentially had two options, namely to close
    them down or to assist them. In the case of all the troubled South
    African SOE’s, closing them down would have cost the fiscus more
    over the short term than the attempts to turn them around. Thus, the
    Director General pointed out that National Treasury would have
    needed R 17 billion in six months to deal with SAA obligations had
    it decided to close down this SOE. In the case of Denel, R12-15
    billion would have been needed immediately. So closing down SOE’s
    carried huge costs if the outstanding obligations of these
    enterprises were called in.


    National Treasury had instead decided to get involved in a
    turnaround strategy for Denel, which had included operational
    support of R 933 million. The turnaround strategy entailed getting
    rid of non-core businesses, finding a niche market and concentrating
    more on the domestic market. The Director General indicated that an
    improvement in the finances of Denel was becoming apparent
    currently.


7.      Private Public Partnership in Production of Electricity


   The Committee enquired after the appropriate risk transfer in the
   case of electricity generation, and asked why it was the case that
   more private generators were not being encouraged.
   The Director General indicated that National Treasury, through its
   PPP unit, had been working for some time with the Department of
   Minerals and Energy on how to manage independent power providers. It
   was not simple to introduce smaller independent providers into a
   market where one producer, Eskom, represented virtually the entire
   industry. The likelihood was that Eskom would remain the key player,
   though this did not rule out future scope for independent producers.

8.      Impact of Commodity Prices on Fiscal Policy

8.1     The Committee enquired after the manner in which National
    Treasury currently understood the links between fiscal policy and
    growth.

    The Director General noted that a policy theme currently being
    explored by the National Treasury was how to use fiscal space.
    Through sound macroeconomic management South Africa had created
    increased fiscal space by bringing down the cost of debt servicing
    as a percentage of GDP and releasing resources for other forms of
    spending. He noted that the current fiscal space also emanated from
    a positive trade shock in the form of the global commodity boom.
    This aspect of the fiscal space was cyclical rather than structural.


    Three broad options existed under circumstances where government had
    more room than usual to maneuver:


    Additional resources could be used to mitigate against external risk
    through government saving which would create a buffer against future
    negative shocks


    8.1.1     Investment in future productive capacity could be
    accelerated
    8.1.2     Social expenditure could be accelerated


    The Director General also noted that sound macro-management and
    resultant fiscal space meant that South Africa could now consider
    the comprehensive social security reforms announced in the 2007
    State of the Nation address. 13 years ago government did not have
    the resources to contemplate such a step.


    The Director General also took the opportunity to provide the
    Committee with a summary of key discussions which took place at the
    recent G-20 summit, which was co-chaired by South Africa and where
    the issue of fiscal space in a commodity boom period was discussed.


    South Africa benefited from the current commodity boom to the extent
    that it was a commodity exporter, and suffered to the extent that it
    imported oil and a number of other commodities. The crux of the
    matter, from the perspective of fiscal policy, was that commodity
    prices would not remain high forever. The question was thus what to
    do with revenue windfalls, which would decline in the future. One
    option, which was discussed by the G-20, was the creation of
    stabilisation funds in which surplus revenues would be invested and
    which could be drawn on when prices were low. A problem with such a
    fund was that its returns would have to beat the returns associated
    with accelerated debt repayment, and this was unlikely. It was not
    regarded by National Treasury as an attractive option.


    Another option was to use windfall revenues to change the country’s
    productive base, by for example investing in infrastructure and
    education. The essence of this view was that the structure of the
    economy needed to be changed while surpluses were available. This
    implied that capital spending needed to be accelerated at a faster
    rate than recurrent expenditure. The emphasis on investment and the
    debt retiring rather than refinancing of debt were currently
    preferred options. The budget surplus of this year also meant that
    no additional debt servicing costs would be incurred.


8.2     The Committee enquired what it meant for South Africa to chair
    the G-20 Summit. The Committee also asked whether Parliament
    shouldn’t be more involved, noting that Parliament often got left
    behind in such processes.

    The Director General indicated that the most important aspect of
    chairing or co-chairing the G-20 was the opportunity to influence
    the agenda and ensure it had a sufficient developing country focus.
    In addition to matters relating to commodity prices and fiscal
    space, the G-20 had on this occasion engaged with reform of the
    Bretton Woods institutions.


    The Director General indicated that the Bretton Woods institutions
    suffered from a ‘democracy deficit’ and needed to be reformed.
    Reform needed to include the manner in which the World Bank
    President and IMF Managing Director were selected. Another key
    aspect of reform was the representavity of these institutions, and
    ensuring that dynamic, fast-growing emerging economies were
    adequately represented.


    The Director General noted that the G-20 was reserved for Ministers
    of Finance and Reserve Bank Governors, and that previous proposals
    to broaden participation were not supported by the membership.

9.      Municipal Salary Increases

   Regarding the recommendation that municipal salary increases should
   be within the inflation target range, the Committee enquired whether
   National Treasury would have any authority to compel salary
   adjustments in cases where salaries were too high or too low.


   The Director General indicated that the recommended salary increases
   were only National Treasury guidelines, and could not constrain
   municipal budgeting. In the final instance the Council had to approve
   all salary adjustments.

10.     National Treasury Personnel Plan

   The Committee enquired, with reference to the personnel plan, after
   the main reasons why staff left the treasury. The Committee also
   enquired how quickly vacant posts were filled, and what the effect of
   vacancies was on operations.


   The Director General noted that many staff that left National
   Treasury went to other government departments, and were thus retained
   within the public service. As far as the impact on operations was
   concerned, he emphasised that more new staff had been employed than
   had left the institution, so operations had not been affected
   adversely.

11.     Re-structuring of Programmes

   The Committee enquired about the motivation for elevating a sub-
   programme to a programme, referring to the 3 sub-programmes of
   programme 2 which had now become the separate programme 6. The
   Committee also enquired whether the required allocation of funds
   accompanied the shift.


   The Director General indicated that the original programme 2 was too
   big, as was mentioned two years ago to the committee, and that
   consequently two programmes of more manageable size had been created.
   Allocations had indeed been shifted in accordance with this change.


   Concerns were expressed on the precise nature of measurable
   objectives and how these objectives in terms of timeframes were
   linked to policy outcomes for programmes. Its vagueness exerted undue
   pressure on those responsible for outputs to achieve the desired
   outcome.

12.     The Development Finance Institutions (DFI’s)

   The Committee referred to information provided by Statistics South
   Africa, which indicated that the poor still predominantly went to
   loan-sharks when they needed loans. The Committee enquired whether
   access to finance by the poor should become more of a focus. The
   Committee also enquired after the role of the Development Finance
   Institutions (DFI’s) in this regard.


   The Director General noted that a desktop analysis conducted by
   National Treasury indicated that the DFI’s were not identifying
   instances of market failure in the credit market and lending there,
   but were in fact competing in and with the private sector instead.
   The Director General noted that the biggest current challenge was
   probably the lack of a specific DFI policy. This needed to be
   developed and approved by cabinet.
13.     Municipal Support versus Prescription

   Referring especially to the implementation of budget reforms in the
   largest municipalities, the Committee enquired to what extent such
   measures emanating from National Treasury could be regarded as advice
   to municipalities, and to what extent they were prescriptive. And if
   they were prescriptive, could they constitute an infringement of
   municipal constitutional rights?


   In response, the Director-General emphasised that these reforms
   concerned the implementation of the Municipal Finance Management Act
   (MFMA). Since this piece of legislation was constitutional, its
   implementation could not be unconstitutional and could not be
   regarded as infringing on the mandate of local government.


14.     Siyenza Manje

   The Committee enquired in what ways the Siyenza Manje initiative
   differed from other initiatives.


   The Director General noted that, under Siyenza Manje, DBSA
   professionals were working with municipalities to build capacity, and
   that retired, skilled individuals were being recalled and deployed to
   work alongside young interns to help the municipality build its
   skills base. Engineers, for example, would be required to service a
   number of municipalities rather than being deployed to one site only.
   In this way a number of poor municipalities could benefit from the
   services of an engineer, whilst they would not have been able to
   employ such a person full-time.


15.     Recommendations

   Based on its deliberations the Committee recommends that the House
   request that National Treasury:


   15.1 Table timeously a discussion paper on measurable objectives.
   15.2 Submits a comprehensive report on the Government guarantees
       issued, and the conditions thereof.
   15.3 Develops a supply chain policy framework     as set out in the
   PFMA.
   15.4 Develops a policy framework relating to the mandates of the
       Development Finance Institute.

South African Revenue Services Budget Vote

16.     Introduction

   The South African Revenue Service (SARS) is a public entity reporting
   to the Minister of Finance. The Portfolio Committee on Finance
   exercises oversight of SARS in line with the Constitutional mandate
   set out in section 55(2) of the Constitution and section 27 (4) of
   the Public Finance Management Act.


   The Portfolio Committee on Finance hosted a hearing on 15 May 2007 to
   consider the SARS strategic plan for 2007/2008–2009/2010. SARS was
   represented by the Commissioner, Mr Pravin Gordhan, and senior staff.


   The presentation of the strategic plan by the Commissioner was
   followed by discussion, which is recorded below.

17.     Achieving the Deliverables of the Strategic Plan

17.1    The Committee enquired whether the agenda set out in the
     strategic plan, with regards especially to the modernisation of
     SARS, was realistically achievable within the given time-frames.
     The Committee also enquired what variables might detract from the
     achievement of the plan.

      The Commissioner emphasised that a strategic plan was a process
      rather than an event. SARS had begun the top-down aspect of the
      strategic planning process, and certainly would not present a
      plan which they did not regard as achievable.


      The Commissioner further distinguished between SARS’s normal
      operations and its new areas of responsibility. Regarding normal
      operations, allocations were broadly aligned with requirements,
      and included some R 1 billion for aspects of the modernisation
      agenda.


      There were a number of programmes within this agenda where work
      had started already, including the customer services programme
      and the risk management system. However, regarding new SARS
      responsibilities stemming from new government priorities,
      additional resources would be required. These responsibilities
      included SARS’s role in the implementation of the social security
      tax and wage subsidy, as well as its role as the lead agency at
      South African ports of entry. The Commissioner also noted that
      the Minster of Finance had referred to additional allocations for
      these purposes in his 2007 Budget Speech.


      These programmes were still in their formative stages and in time
      a clearer sense of what they entailed would develop, making it
      easier for SARS to provide a concrete list of deliverables for
      which it could be held accountable.

17.2    The Committee enquired whether, given additional SARS
      responsibilities and resource requirements, incentives to greater
      revenue collection could be promoted where SARS retained some
      portion of revenue collected if it exceeded revenue collection
      targets.
      The Commissioner noted that such a scheme had been considered
      before and that it was not internationally uncommon for a revenue
      agency’s allocation to be benchmarked to revenue collected. The
      Commissioner noted that a positive aspect of such an approach was
      the greater political independence associated with it.

18.     The SARS Modernisation Agenda

18.1    The Committee enquired whether, given the modernisation agenda
      of SARS and the potential need for re-skilling of staff, it
      anticipated problems in light of the so called skills shortage in
      South Africa.

      The Commissioner agreed that re-skilling could be a challenge,
      and that there was always some risk in competing as an employer
      for skills in a country where some serious skills challenges
      existed. He indicated, however, that measures were in place to
      counter this risk.
      For new assessment centres, standard operating procedures would
      be mapped out in order to clearly understand what new
      competencies were required given changing job demands. This
      knowledge would then form the basis of training and development.
      The Commissioner was also confident that the experience gained
      through Siyakha would be applicable to the new set of
      circumstances.


      A high-level individual had furthermore been recruited from the
      recruitment industry to start the SARS recruitment centre, which
      would look for critical skills in the market.


      A SARS academy would also be started to respond better to the
      training needs of staff. The Commissioner noted that established
      training agencies of revenue authorities in other countries
      provided useful models and information in this regard.

18.2    Given the complete reliance on hand-completed returns in some
      centres, the Committee enquired whether digitization of paper
      documents would be a priority this year.

      The Commissioner pointed out that SARS had a medium-term plan for
      full digitization. The new forms for this year would allow all
      taxpayer data to be encoded into a two-dimensional bar code.


      The Commissioner expressed the hope that increasing numbers of
      tax payers would submit their returns electronically, which would
      reduce the need for SARS to capture and digitize the information,
      but acknowledged that it would be a long time before most South
      African tax payers submitted their returns electronically.


      With this in mind, the next phase for SARS would be to have bulk
      scanning facilities at sites, such as the current pilot in
      Alberton, where hand-written forms could be scanned in and
      digitized and processed almost immediately.

19.     Tax Compliance and Customer Service

19.1    With regard to simplification of tax returns, the Committee
      enquired to what extent third party information would be correct
      if taxpayers were not required to attach evidence in this regard
      to their returns.
      The Commissioner acknowledged that under the new system taxpayers
      would be required to send only the return itself. SARS was
      essentially now only asking for what was necessary. He pointed
      out, however, that tax payers would be required to keep such
      evidence for five years, and that where problems arose SARS
      reserved the right to request this evidence from the tax payer.


      He noted that many countries had successfully adopted similar
      approaches and that he was confident it would be successful in
      South Africa too.


      The SARS risk management system also enabled it to compare a
      return against information provided in previous returns by the
      same taxpayer, to check for larger than normal variances.
      Similarly, the system would establish general categories of tax
      payers and check for anomalous information given the profile of
      each category.


      The Commissioner further noted that SARS already possessed a wide
      variety of third party data, though not always in the form that
      SARS wanted it. Processes had been started to obtain further
      information from institutions that had relevant information.


      As an example of using third party data to improve administrative
      efficiency, the commissioner noted that this year SARS had
      verified some 60% of taxpayer addresses. Although this entailed
      some costs, the net financial impact would be positive. In
      previous years, taxpayers whose addresses changed would not
      always inform SARS, and SARS would waste money through posted
      return forms coming back to them. This year, tax payers whose
      addresses had been verified would receive posted returns, but
      those whose addresses were no longer correct would have to
      collect theirs from a SARS office where it would be printed for
      them.

19.2    The Committee enquired about the revenue collection implications
      of SARS’s outreach efforts aimed at small businesses and the
      informal sector.

      The Commissioner noted that average revenue collected per
      taxpayer would in fact decline as SARS broadened its reach to
      this part of the tax base. It was less an issue of revenue,
      however, than of compliance: the objective was that every South
      African who was eligible to pay tax was on the tax register.

19.3    Whilst noting that SMME’s were being targeted to register for
      tax, the Committee enquired how many larger formal businesses
      were still evading taxation.


      The Commissioner noted that SARS had received some 40 000
      applications for tax amnesty from small and medium-sized
      businesses, but that many businesses were still not registered
      for tax. The Commissioner indicated that unfortunately not much
      data was available from which SARS could determine, for all
      businesses, whether they were tax compliant or not.


      However, SARS had seen an improvement in interventions to educate
      taxpayers, as well as increased tax compliance as a result of
      these improved interventions.

20.     Revenue Over-Runs

20.1    The Committee noted that revenue overruns never ceased to
      surprise, and that SARS had explained to the committee on
      previous occasions why such over-runs occurred. The Committee
      enquired, however, after the extent to which comparisons showed
      that South African over-runs were commensurate with international
      experience. The Committee further referred to an IMF Article IV
      consultation document of August 2005 where concern was expressed
      by the IMF at the consistent lack of accuracy in South African
      forecasts of revenue collection.

      The Commissioner noted that the more one looked internationally,
      the more one saw such over-runs. He pointed out that the IMF
      document recommended the establishment of a formalised structure
      through which forecasting was done, and that such a structure now
      existed, consisting of SARS, the Reserve Bank and the National
      Treasury. Forecasts and estimates were the product of that
      structure, which met more frequently closer to the release dates
      of the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement and the Budget itself.
      The Commissioner further emphasised that there were still areas
      of the South African economy which were poorly understood and
      measured and where significant expansion of SARS activities still
      needed to take place. SARS was in fact still in a developmental
      phase, which could last for some years. Improved detection of all
      taxable economic activities, the amnesty campaign, as well as the
      new operating model would all improve compliance and increase
      total revenue collected.

21.     The SARS Governance Structure

21.1    In relation to the governance structure of SARS, the Committee
      enquired why SARS had no board of directors to oversee
      operations.

      The Commissioner noted that a variety of practices existed
      globally. Typically, where a Board of Directors did exist, there
      was limited contact between the board and the revenue authority.
      Boards rarely got engaged in the substance of matters.


      The Commissioner indicated that SARS had meetings every few weeks
      with the Minister of Finance, and that in a sense the Minster
      constituted its board. SARS reported to him on operations and
      other aspects of business, including its strategic plan, as
      required by the Public Finance Management Act.

22.     Revenue Aspects of Regional Trade Arrangements

22.1    Regarding SADC trade liberalisation, the Committee enquired
      whether neighbouring countries would also be modernizing their
      customs systems on order to align these with those of SARS.

      The Commissioner noted that a SADC Customs Committee existed and
      that SARS had been engaged in many initiatives aimed at capacity
      building and sharing of knowledge and experience with
      neighbouring countries’ revenue authorities.


      The Commissioner expressed the hope that administrative barriers
      between member countries would be removed, as well as that
      automated data collection by member countries would make trade
      data more transparent.
22.2    The Committee noted that revenue from trade tariffs was a key
      source of revenue for many developing countries. The Committee
      enquired about further revenue losses to other SACU members as a
      result of trade liberalisation, and how this would ultimately
      impact on South Africa.


      The Commissioner noted that the SACU allocation in the South
      African budget had grown significantly and those discussions
      between member countries were still in the political decision-
      making phase to ensure no-one was left worse off. The
      Commissioner noted that a global challenge associated with
      liberalization was to ensure that economic growth and investment
      replaced tariffs as a revenue source.

23.     Debt Management

23.1    The Committee noted that, according to the strategic plan, SARS
      currently had a high debt book relative to international
      benchmark levels. The committee enquired after the size of the
      debt book, the percentage of this that SARS regarded as
      recoverable, and what in fact the international benchmark level
      was.

      The Commissioner responded that the size of the debt book was R
      57.5 billion at the end of 2006/2007, which represented a year-on-
      year reduction of about 4%. This in fact was the second year
      running that the debt book had been reduced, though it needed to
      be reduced more.


      The Commissioner noted that SARS was successfully handling the
      recovery of current debt, but was struggling to recover old debt.
      He referred to recent regulations issued under section 91A of the
      Income Tax Act, 1962 which would give SARS greater leeway
      regarding old debt. SARS would be able to categorise debt into
      recoverable and non-recoverable debt, which could then be written
      off.


      The introduction of an automated debt management system, which
      formed part of the modernization agenda, would also reduce errors
      in debt management.


      Regarding international benchmark levels, the Commissioner
      pointed out that different countries defined debt differently.
      For example, in some countries tax assessments under dispute were
      categorised as debt, while in others they were not. He noted
      that, following the new legislation, South Africa’s debt book
      figures could also change significantly.


      SARS in fact wanted to move from ‘debt management’ to ‘account
      management’, where staff would be responsible for individually
      managing a number of accounts, which would include debt recovery
      management. Such a shift would lead to better managed
      relationships between SARS and taxpayers.

24.     Conclusion

   The Committee requests that SARS officials be sensitised and
   capacitated on the consistent application of legislation with regards
   to concessions given to disabled taxpayers and disabled dependents,
   as legitimate deductions.

25.     Recommendations

   Based on its deliberations the Committee recommends that the House
   request that the South African Revenue Services:

   25.1.1     Submits a detailed report on the progress of discussions
         within six months on its role with regard to the social
         security tax and wage subsidy.
   25.1.2     Develops its plans with regard to additional funds to
         operationalise new responsibilities and then provide the
         Committee with concrete estimates of the extent of additional
         funds required.
   25.1.3     Submits a report within six months on the implementation
         measures relating to the write-off of debt.


Report to be considered.