WEDNESDAY, 14 NOVEMBER 2007 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 15:05.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

                      UNPARLIAMENTARY LANGUAGE

                              (Ruling)

The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, before we proceed to questions to the Deputy President, I would like to dispense with the ruling on a point of order raised by the Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party on 18 October 2007.

On Thursday 18 October 2007, the Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party rose on a point of order regarding a remark made by the Leader of the Opposition during her speech in the debate on Mr I O Davidson’s Draft Resolution calling upon the House to appoint an ad hoc committee to investigate whether the Minister of Health was fit to hold public office.

The Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party contended that the remark by the Leader of the Opposition was unparliamentary as the gist of it suggested that the Minister played an active role in the killing of many thousands of people. I undertook to study the Hansard and return to the House with the considered ruling.

Having now had an opportunity to study the unrevised Hansard, I want to rule as follows. The Leader of the Opposition, referring to the Minister of Health, in fact, said:

She, as much as anybody else, must take responsibility for her actions and no defence from colleagues, whom I understand on an emotional level, changes the fact that this Minister has presided over the unnecessary deaths of very many thousands of South Africans.

The Constitution guarantees members freedom of speech in the Assembly and its committees. This right is unfettered; subject only to the constitutional Rules and orders that the House imposes on it. One such Rule is Rule 63, which deals with offensive language or as it is otherwise known, unparliamentary language. This is a broadly framed rule that allows a Presiding Officer to take into consideration, inter alia, the context and tone of a particular remark or inference.

In this House, since 1994, there have already been a number of rulings from the Chair that members may not impute improper motives to other members or cast personal reflections on their integrity as members, or verbally abuse them in any other way.

The allegation by the Leader of the Opposition that the Minister of Health presided over the deaths of many people, is unacceptable and must be withdrawn. I now ask the Leader of the Opposition to withdraw the remark.

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, I withdraw. [Applause.]

The SPEAKER: Thank you very much. [Applause.]

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT

         Progress in restructuring SA National Aids Council

1. Mr B L Mashile (ANC) asked the Deputy President: What progress has been made in restructuring the SA National Aids Council, Sanac, and the adoption of a new programme in this regard? NO2524E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, the answer to the question on the restructuring of the SA National Aids Council, Sanac, is as follows.

Since the launch of the national strategic plan, Sanac and the Department of Health have facilitated meetings of government departments and civil society to discuss the programme of action and to map out how departments and sectors are implementing the interventions.

In September 2006, Cabinet decided to revive the interministerial committee to strengthen the implementation of the HIV and Aids programme, to improve co-ordination and communication and to improve on monitoring and evaluation.

The decision to revive the ministerial committee is informed by government’s recognition and acknowledgment that the HIV and Aids challenge is not a health sector issue only, but also affects society as a whole. This necessarily requires a multisectoral and multistakeholder approach.

In this regard, the Minister and the Department of Health remain the key role-players and leaders in the fight against HIV and Aids. Simultaneously, we acknowledge and welcome constructive and critical contributions from other role-players, which include civil society and business.

Before and after the Cabinet decision to revive the ministerial committee, several activities were undertaken that we believe had an important impact on carrying on the fight against HIV and Aids. These include the development of a new draft of the National Strategic Plan for HIV/Aids and Sexually Transmitted Infections for 2007 to 2011; the restructuring review of Sanac; the many meetings that had been held between Ministers and civil society organisations; the formation of the task teams on chronic illnesses, food security and social security; and a myriad of stakeholder consultations.

Sanac also decided to conduct an internal review in 2006, with a view to improving its efficiency. The new structure was then launched on 30 April

1. It has a plenary and a programme implementation committee, as well as a sectoral co-ordination committee.

It consists of 17 civil society sectors, seven Ministries that represent the different sectors of government, a ministerial committee on HIV and Aids and government. The plenary, which puts together all these stakeholders, provides leadership.

The programme implementation committee supports the plenary, and its objective is to share experiences and strategies; review programme implementation by the partners; identify best practice and make recommendations to sectors and Sanac, some of which assist us to formulate policy.

Sanac is not an implementing body; it is an embodiment of partnerships across all sectors in response to the fight. In April 2007 Sanac adopted the National Strategic Plan for HIV/Aids and Sexually Transmitted Infections, which guides all sectors in their response.

Therefore, several partnership activities between government and civil society, and among civil society actors, have taken place and some of them are being supported by Sanac. Sanac has required all implementing sectors, including government and civil society, to develop their plans specific to the national strategic plan, and for these plans to be shared with Sanac.

The sectors are busy putting those plans in place. Those that have already completed their plans have already presented them to Sanac. I must emphasise that government departments were amongst the first to finish such plans and to present them to Sanac. Progress made in implementing these action plans will be addressed at the Sanac plenary meeting in November. Most government departments will be able to give us reports of even further progress made with the work that they are doing.

Hon members, success in implementing the national HIV/Aids plan depends on leadership, collaboration and continuous mobilisation of all stakeholders. Thank you.

Mr B L MASHILE: Thanks, Madam Speaker. Hon Deputy President, what role should civil society play to enhance the objectives of the new programme, if any? What strategies are in place or envisaged to bring along civil society to implement these programmes?

Are there any monitoring and control mechanisms to ensure meaningful civil society participation?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, the implementation of a programme targeting young people is, in the main, undertaken by young people themselves and by departments, with the Department of Education probably playing the biggest role with its lifestyles programme in schools.

Many of the faith-based organisations also do programmes that involve young people. We are also trying to bring on board sports organisations because many young people participate in sporting activities.

Where some of the programmes that they are implementing need to be resourced, it is possible for them to seek donor funding. However, where possible, the Department of Health does support these activities.

My view is that the biggest role that young people need to play in this regard is in relation to public education, especially in terms of prevention. Secondly, young persons have a big responsibility to ensure that they abstain from risky behaviour. The right choices that young people make for themselves could probably be the biggest contribution that they could make. However, we need to talk to young people constantly so that they know that a big contribution is expected of them.

Regarding the support mechanisms, the programme implementation committee within Sanac exists exactly for that reason: to guide the partners on the implementation of programmes where they may need technical assistance, additional information and literature.

We have set up a monitoring and evaluation mechanism, which is one of the standing committees, with Sanac. It has not met in its full complement. During this November meeting they will be adopting the terms of reference for monitoring. I think many of the members of Sanac will just want to make sure that the monitoring and evaluation implementation is structured in a manner that will provide us with information on an ongoing basis, as part of the monitoring activity. Thank you.

Mrs S V KALYAN: Thank you, Speaker. Deputy President, it is quite unfortunate that during the restructuring period Sanac did not meet at all. It was a case of “shop closed while renovating”.

One of the objectives of Sanac is to oversee, monitor and evaluate all aspects of the national strategic plan. Given that the Health department is the lead department in the implementation of this plan, how do you explain that the Director-General for Health, who sits in a high-level sector of Sanac, effectively disowns the SNP intended to guide the country’s Aids approach? How do you reconcile his undermining a key objective of Sanac?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, the hon member has a different opinion about the director-general concerned, which I do not share.

Mr N T GODI: Madam Speaker, we welcome the reinvigoration of Sanac. Since the financial year ending March 2007, there have been several meetings of Sanac. However, my concern relates to Sanat, the SA National Aids Trust. The trust has an account that has not been used in the past two years.

What I would like to find out is whether, in the circumstances where Sanac and its programmes have been reinvigorated, we will see movement in terms of the money that is in the account of the national Aids trust being used to support the programmes that it has been put aside for.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I share your hope and frustration, hon Godi. However, let’s wait.

Lessons learnt from 16 Days of Activism for No Violence Against Women and Children campaign

1. Mrs W S Newhoudt-Druchen (ANC) asked the Deputy President:

   (a) What are the lessons learnt from the last 16 Days of Activism for No Violence Against Women and Children campaign and (b) what is the Government doing to sustain this campaign? NO2789E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, this question is on 16 Days of Activism for No Violence against Women and Children. The campaign has been successful in highlighting this scourge in our society. Research conducted by GCIS has shown that the level of awareness of the 16 days campaign has grown from 16% in 2003 to 33% in 2006. In other words, the level of awareness has more than doubled. But we definitely need it to be higher than this.

In this regard, the key lesson arising from this research is that of the development of an increased understanding on how levels of violence are troubling the country. However, it also clearly shows that we have more work to do in this regard. It was also shown in that study that the Free State has a comparatively high level of awareness.

The core challenge, however, is to translate some of the knowledge that people seem to have on this subject – that is the subject of abuse of women and children - into behavioural change. Some of the areas that we need to focus on in the future are strong efforts to meaningfully involve men and boy-children in interventions in order to encourage behavioural changes. We need, in particular, to forge stronger relations with men’s organisations and those that positively address these issues. These are organisations such as the Men’s Trust, Sonke Gender Justice and the Engender Health organisation.

An example of a positive initiative that we were also associated with during this year’s 16 days campaign is the One Man Can campaign. Amongst other things, this campaign has developed an action kit aimed at men to act on their concerns about domestic and sexual violence. The awareness needs to start with boys, and parents must take responsibility. Any man who does not have this kit is not a man.

Secondly, we need to continue our effort to take the campaign to people at the grass-roots level, in rural areas in particular. We are doing relatively well with media coverage in urban areas through the usage of billboards and information pamphlets. But, there are disadvantages in relation to rural communities. As a result, other ways have been adopted to enhance the outreach in these marginalised communities. An example of this is that on 14 October this year, there was a successful farmworkers’ awareness programme that was held in Grabouw, Western Cape. There were thousands of farmworkers who attended this gathering entitled, “Act against abuse of our women and children”. I am sure many of us are aware of the kind of abuse that farmworkers are exposed to.

Our outreach target is rural areas where conventional media are not easily accessible. This always has to be complemented by the continued use of different media that include technology, “makgotla” [courts], schools, churches and you, hon members. You are a resource in this regard.

To support the 16 Days of Activism campaign during 2006, some of our key elements included the cyber dialogue initiative and the SMS campaign which reached quite a number of people who have access to this medium of communication. There is also a need to popularise symbols of the campaign, be it the white ribbon or the torch of peace.

Sustaining communication, broadening generalised public awareness and improving the participation of certain partners and sectors of the campaign are also critical. The one million postcards campaign is one such campaign which we do through the Post Office. It involves a range of NGOs and CBOs, faith-based organisations, international organisations, state-owned entities and the media. This also doubles up as a fundraising campaign.

Efforts have been made by government and its partners to translate the campaign into a sustainable 365 days of action so that we are able to tackle the scourge every day of the year. We have not been able to intensify this 365-day action and we need to continue to work on it.

The Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Amendment Bill will ensure that crimes against women and children of a sexual nature are dealt with effectively by the criminal justice system. Similarly, the Criminal Law (Sentencing) Amendment Bill provides for minimum sentences for, amongst other things, certain sexual offences. Both these Bills have been passed by this House and are at the NCOP. I would urge the members to consider these matters as urgent.

With regard to the 16 Days of Activism campaign this year, the national launch will be in Bloemfontein in the Free State on 25 November 2007. The focus in this year’s campaign will be on a march of a million men which aims to specifically mobilise men and the boys in support of the 16 Days of Activism campaign and indeed in support of 365 days without violence against women and children. The central event will be supported by similar marches in all provinces – even smaller towns. We urge you where you are to organise such marches.

This year, the Postcard Pledge campaign will once again aim to ensure that maximum support for ordinary people throughout the country is achieved. On 8 November this year, the national convener, the Deputy Minister for Provincial and Local Government, launched this element of the campaign with the SA Post Office. This year, two million postcards will be printed and distributed through our post offices, various government departments and agencies and, of course, business and civil society. The postcards will also serve as a registration form for the Million Men’s March. The money raised through the postcard sales will help nongovernmental organisations that support survivors and victims of gender-based violence.

I urge hon members to actively participate in this campaign, particularly in their constituencies so that we can stamp out violence against women and children wherever we live and wherever we work. Mobilise all men and the boys that you know for them to stand up and be counted. Please ensure that we also mobilise across all races, sectors and all ages. Thank you.

Mrs W S NEWHOUDT-DRUCHEN: Madam Speaker, Deputy President, we acknowledge what the government is doing. From the ANC’s point of view, we would like the campaign to be 365 days. We need to make it an everyday campaign in order to be able to permanently end the abuse of women and children.

We also need to acknowledge the fact that in most instances the perpetrator is someone that is well known, trusted and closely related to the victim; then the interventions that are in place should be focused more on mobilising and strengthening active participation.

Apart from the lessons learned by the government and related institutions, what progress has been made in strengthening communities and civil society organisations to combat women and child abuse? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: To begin with, many of the organisations in our communities, as the hon members will know, are not necessarily even waiting for us as government to do something. They are undertaking their own initiatives and we are, therefore, able to support them in that regard. In some cases, government is able to provide materials and resources for them to undertake their campaigns. We are able to provide them with human resources in order to update them with information. But we are also able to form partnerships so that some of the initiatives that are undertaken by the NGOs are also taken on board by government. The Department of Social Welfare, I think, is the department that has the largest contribution in that regard - where they partner with many NGOs. In that regard, they strengthen both the department and the NGOs. Thank you.

Mr M WATERS: Deputy President, you quite clearly mention that the level of awareness of the 16 Days of Activism has doubled over the years. This will place an additional burden and pressure on the state resources that deal with the scourge.

However, 12 months ago, the very police units that were established to investigate child or women rape and abuse were disbanded - the Family Violence, Child Protection and Sexual Offences Units. The members were deployed to some cluster police stations across the country, and even not all cluster police stations across the country. Despite several assurances by the Minister of Safety and Security who is sitting behind you, that these members would remain in an independent unit, that has not been the case. They report to the chief of detectives at the station and they are no longer recognised within SAPS, on their own Persal system, as an independent unit.

Child rape and child abuse cases, Deputy President, are difficult cases to investigate, requiring facilities such as play rooms, observation rooms and one-way mirrors so that children can be assessed in a nonthreatening environment away from the intimidating environment of a police station. This is how it used to be, but it is unfortunately no longer the case.

Does the Deputy President not agree that removing the FCS units from an environment that had special facilities for children to one where there are little or no facilities for children, has in fact inadvertently affected the fight against child abuse and rape; and has impacted negatively on the 16 Days of Activism? If you do not agree, hon Deputy President, what are the reasons? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think that the restructuring effort was explained in this House before. This is meant to bring the services closer to where they are needed. If we have not been able, at this point in time, to cover each and every police station, it is because we do not have the resources to roll out all the units at the same time. There are areas in which we do know for sure that the services are being provided and they are working well. While, of course, one cannot dispute the fact that there are areas where we may have problems, I would like you to give us an opportunity to finish the roll-out; go and assess; and bring back an informed report.

Mr H B CUPIDO: Hon Speaker, hon Deputy President, the ACDP surely supports the strategy of 365 days of activism against the abuse of women and children. Deputy President, despite the 16 Days of Activism and all the programmes that will be going with it, we would like to know if government has implemented any other measures in order to combat the ongoing abuse and murder of our women and children - like better training of the police; better forensic services; the improved use of DNA testing; and maybe even the implementation of a register of paedophiles. Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon member, yes, we are doing all of these things that you identified. There is an improvement and concentration on training and on the different initiatives undertaken by provinces and ordinary police stations. The better training of officers is one of the elements that are quite common. The better use of forensic examinations and DNA testing is also being attended to. There are, in fact, lots of initiatives to improve our services in this regard.

I also have to say that we do have a challenge of skills and human resources there. Recently in the plan that was discussed by Cabinet, you would have noted that we have highlighted the need for us to consolidate in this area.

On the issue of the register of paedophiles - that is in the legislation, as you know - once the legislation has been finalised, this will come into effect. I guess that is what we want to do: just to manage the register in a manner that will ensure that it is effective, but at the same time it does not have unintended consequences where we make a mistake and we unfairly compromise people who are not abusing children. Thanks.

Mr M WATERS: Thank you, Deputy President, for those replies. We agree with you. We look forward to the child-protection register coming into force in the Children’s Bill shortly.

Hon Deputy President, you mentioned in your initial reply that two million cards were to be posted and delivered by the Post Office to promote awareness of the 16 Days of Activism.

Last week, the Department of Home Affairs made an announcement that they are no longer going to use the services of the Post Office, because they can no longer rely on the Post Office. Can you give us the assurance that you have full faith in the Post Office? Have you had any negotiations with them to ensure the delivery of these two million postcards? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Our experience with them last year was that they did deliver the postcards, but to the extent that they did not receive as many responses as we wanted, this had to do with the recipients of the postcards. So we do not have a sense that this is too hard a task for them. The Post Office of South Africa is still the Post Office of South Africa. We will not throw the baby out with the bath water. We must help them to get their act together and not condemn them, please!

      Skills lost or created as a result of affirmative action

1. Ms A M Dreyer (DA) asked the Deputy President:

   Whether South Africa has lost a huge number of skills as a result of affirmative action; if not, (a) what is the position in this regard and (b) how many extra skills has affirmative action created? NO2785E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Chair, … Chairman, you are metrosexual, so I can call you “Madam”! This question is on the skills loss in South Africa as a result of affirmative action.

The perception that affirmative action has resulted in a huge loss of skills to the country is not supported by recent studies published by reputable institutions on this issue. The perception is also not supported by feedback through the Joint Initiative on Priority Skills Acquisition on the scarcity of skills in South Africa in priority areas.

Companies are struggling to find the skills that they need in South Africa and this is because the economy has grown under this government that is ANC- led. So part of the skills shortage has to do with the robustness of our economy and the greater demand for skilled people.

Recently the Department of Home Affairs also announced a revision in the visa regulations to allow for importation of skills into the country because, in any case, skills are mobile and therefore we would expect that some people will come to South Africa and some people will leave South Africa.

Clearly no such amendments would have been necessary if there were skilled and unemployed South Africans of any race in the country, given that the cost of importing skills, thus far, outweighs local recruitment and that those recruits would not fit the affirmative action requirements. I would not imagine that the companies will ignore South Africans of any colour and go out of the country if there were people in South Africa who were being marginalised, even though they were skilled.

Secondly, Jipsa and the Development Bank of Southern Africa have created a database to register and link retired and returning South Africans for re- employment given the scarce skills shortage. Again, those are people of different races and, in the main, they are white males. Recent studies concluded that affirmative action implementation is very slow and painful and, in some cases, completely nonexistent.

The seventh Commission for Employment Equity Annual Report 2006-07 presented to the President concluded that the rate and pace of implementation of affirmative action was actually a matter of concern. In fact, the commission reported that it had to cancel the inaugural employment equity awards function which was supposed to take place in August 2007, due to poor levels of compliance by JSE-listed companies and others.

Their presentation to the joint working committee forecast and showed the trend of how skills at the upper occupational levels were distributed, that is, top management, senior management and professionally qualified and middle management. This is where designated groups are mostly under- represented. According to this report, white women are the major beneficiaries of affirmative action and I am sure, hon member, you have nothing against this. They represent more than 19% of senior managers in the designated groups. Black women and coloured women, in terms of percentages, have decreased during the same period of 2000-06; hence clearly demonstrating a preference for white women over black women in general.

The report concludes that even recruitment trends still favour males, and white males, in general. During this period, 53,5% of recruits were white males versus 38,9% blacks of all kinds. This relates to just more than 72% males versus just more than 22% females. The rest were international recruits. The Commission for Employment Equity Report recommended that stronger action is needed to ensure real inclusion of designated groups. So, I urge hon members not to put up scarecrows and give an impression that affirmative action is taking people away from work or is disadvantaging them. The people here who are disadvantaged, actually, are black people.

The Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment, BBBEE, Progress Baseline Report, which was researched by the University of Pretoria, also stated that, in August 2007, they had come to the same conclusions that in the BEE scorecard 60% of the companies that were surveyed did not comply with employment equity; 82,8% did not comply with the skills development requirements. Based on these studies, one can deduce that affirmative action could not have had a major impact on skills given the reluctance of companies to implement it.

What we are urging the companies to do is to correct these measures and to increase the number of people that they are training and to some extent we are slowly finding one another with companies. It, therefore, does not help to give an impression that there isn’t a need for companies to work harder instead of blaming it on the people who are supposed to be trained when, once in a blue moon, they are able to be placed. Thank you. [Time expired.]

Ms A M DREYER: Madam Deputy Speaker, thank you for that answer and all the facts and information …

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): I think it is Deputy President.

Ms A M DREYER: Sorry, I apologise. Madam Deputy President, the facts and the figures that you give us actually confirm what I imply in my question to you, namely that affirmative action - certainly the way it has been implemented by the ANC government – has not addressed the skills crisis. It has been implemented for 10 years now, but because of the focus on race quotas for over a decade now, we sit in the midst of a massive skills crisis.

I will just give you two further examples to add to what you have mentioned. South Africa should have about 100 000 chartered accountants. We only have 26 000 registered, of which more than 6 000 have gone abroad. This leaves us with a shortfall of 80 000. This is hampering growth. Another example is that the Public Service across the board sits with vacancy levels of 10% and if you take the Department of Safety and Security out of this equation …

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Hon member, you are running out of time.

Ms A M DREYER: My question is whether the Deputy President will agree that the way affirmative action is being applied has failed and that we need a new approach to address the skills shortage in line with the President’s suggestion for sports, focusing on input rather than on output.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, hon member, you actually need a new way of thinking. You say that the accountants have left the country because they couldn’t find jobs; the companies would have employed them instead of sitting with vacancies. Companies are not sitting with vacancies and then going out and recruiting, because the people that they are recruiting from overseas do not fulfil the affirmative action criteria. Your analysis just doesn’t add up, I’m sorry.

Mr S SIMMONS: Speaker, flowing from the hon Deputy President’s reply and given the string of litigations and debates about affirmative action, would the government be prepared to launch an investigation into whether the Employment Equity Act and, specifically affirmative action, is indeed effective in reaching its objective to promote economic development and efficiency in the workplace; given further that the hon Minister of Finance has, in this House, earlier this year acknowledged that implementation problems exist?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, I think what government needs to do is to catch those who are resisting affirmative action and transformation. That is what we are going to do and not all those things you are talking about.

Mr W D SPIES: Madam Deputy President, I would like to touch on a different aspect of your reply and that is the issue of the mobility of skills – the international mobility of skills. If we take it as a given that skills are mobile and that people move where they are being treated best, my question would be whether government is prepared to develop a strategy and a plan to maintain the skills that we do have in South Africa; whether government is aware of the fact that skills are very mobile and whether we are prepared to adopt policies which would encourage people to stay in the country rather than leaving for Europe or better pastures? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: To begin with, the mobility of skills isn’t always a bad thing even for South Africa, because sometimes people go there, gain experience and come back to South Africa more experienced and they enrich us. We also get some of the excellent expertise from other countries through people who come here and, in some cases, they do not have the baggage of the past. They deal and they work with our people in a much more affirmative manner. I don’t want to make the brain drain more problematic than it is. There is also brain gain that happens in the process.

As for strengthening, we would like to give incentives to South Africans to stay at home. Whether that should amount to legislation is another issue. I think better working conditions for the people we employ, whether in the private or in the public sector, are actually important and of course, ensuring that conditions other than financial incentives are also in place. I think it is up to the companies to also do that, but if there is a convincing case that there is need for anything more than this, I am sure we would reflect on that. Individual employers in the main and in the end must make it attractive for their employees to stay in the work that they are in.

Ms P DE LILLE: Hon Deputy President, I sit here and I wonder: What are we talking about? Really, this is a perception and maybe we should begin to say that those people who have been adversely affected by affirmative action should come forward so that we can see them and know where they are

• both in the public sector and in the private sector.

Wherever you go outside, there is an outcry against affirmative action, but I’ve never really met anybody who said to me: “I couldn’t get that job because of affirmative action”. Maybe we should turn it around and ask people to come forward who have not been successful because of affirmative action. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): I think that is more of a comment than a question.

 Engagement of youth in community development activities in terms of
          National Youth Service Mass Mobilisation campaign

1. Ms N R Mokoto (ANC) asked the Deputy President:

   Whether the youth will be engaged in community development activities during the 2007 December/January vacation period in terms of the National Youth Service Mass Mobilisation campaign as envisaged by her; if not, why not; if so, (a) what is the purpose of the campaign, (b) which communities are targeted, (c) why are these communities targeted, (d) what is the nature of the activities that participants engage in and (e) what is learnt from these activities? NO2791E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Chairperson, hon members, allow me to first thank Ms Mokoto for asking this question as it constantly reminds this House of our duty to decisively address the critical challenges facing young people. Such interventions from our Parliament give our youth confidence that their representatives are monitoring the commitments made by the executive for the development of young people, and to the National Youth Service. To this we remain committed!

Among ongoing efforts to intensify youth services, a National Youth Service mass mobilisation volunteer campaign is planned for December 2007 and January 2008. This special campaign aims to capture young people during the school holidays and engage them in productive community development activities. This, we hope, will help our communities to manage the challenges of drug abuse, crime and other tendencies that arise during the summer holidays.

The campaign forms part of Category Three of the National Youth Service Programme which mobilises young people in school and out of school, employed and unemployed, to invest their energies in activities that transform their neighbourhoods.

The Government’s Programme of Action had set 30 000 as the target for this financial year. Already over 20 000 part-time volunteers had been linked to various community service initiatives by the end of September this year. We are well on course to meet the 30 000 target by March 2008.

We are encouraged by this experience because not only did this campaign remain a responsibility of the primary partners, namely the Presidency, the National Youth Commission and the National Youth Service Unit, it was further embraced by departments such as the departments of Environmental Affairs and Tourism, Transport, Safety and Security and many others.

More than 9 000 youth joined the youth campaign last year, motivated by the hunger to rise and save their communities from social ills such as vandalism and alcohol abuse. They worked closely with the law enforcers. These young heroes believe that local problems require solutions and they were part of the solution and not part of the problem!

This year, the campaign will be implemented through the national, provincial and local departments. The provincial youth commissions and NGOs are targeting 10 000 youth country-wide, specifically for themselves. Each of the participating departments will finalise their own work plans and specify targeted communities based on the priorities and benefits identified.

With regard to information dissemination, the campaign employs a mixed approach. It used local communication channels such as youth advisory centres, Thusong Centres, formerly known as multipurpose community centres, places of worship as well as sports organisations. This campaign is also being prepared to support local initiatives. This is a volunteer campaign and we expect different community structures to come on board to support these initiatives or initiate their own, in the spirit of Vukuzenzele!

Ms N R MOKOTO: Mr Chairperson, I thank the Deputy President for her response, however I have a follow-up question, from what she has just said. Could she update me about the progress on Category One and Category Two of the National Youth Service Programme, if any? What sort of skills did those young people who took part in the programme acquire? Lastly, how sustainable is the campaign?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Chairperson, to explain to members: Category One, in National Youth Service, are those young people who are highly at risk because they are out of work or school and are vulnerable because they are either orphaned or unparented in one way or the other. Those are the ones that, when you take them on training programmes, it must not be just for short-term voluntary types of activities, it must be to invest in their training and their development with the aim of finding them sustainable and long-term employment.

In this category of young people, it has been government departments in the main that contributed and many of these activities are actually funded from our budget. The departments that contributed in the main would be those departments that are in a building environment - in different construction- related activities.

We have also seen an increase in young people that are involved in home- based care and young people that are taken on by the departments that are addressing issues such as support for community-based education and public campaign type of initiatives. We hope that even as we roll out some of our programmes in early childhood development, those young people that will qualify will be appropriately trained so that they can participate in that activity and they will, therefore, be able to qualify for long-term employment.

We think that some of those young people will also be recruited to undertake further training in the area of social work, so that again, they can be among those young people that we are recruiting in order to increase the number of social workers.

When the Department of Education launches its adult education campaign next year, we would hope that some of the young people will avail themselves to be trained and to qualify to participate positively in that campaign. So, we are quite encouraged by what we can do with Category one young people but we obviously can always use more.

Mr M WATERS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. I thank the Deputy President for that reply. Madam Deputy President, on 4 December last year, you launched the second phase of the National Youth Service’s volunteer campaign at the Union Building and in your statement you mentioned that the National Youth Commission was to spearhead the mobilisation of at least 9 000 young South Africans and you have mentioned that they exceeded that.

Now, in order to measure the effectiveness of that campaign, how many of the 9 000 young people that were identified actually use the newly acquired skills to enable them to access economic opportunities and a sustainable livelihood, which is one of the objectives of the campaign?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: For that category of young people, it would be unrealistic to measure that immediately, because those are the skills that they would carry throughout their lives, as some of those activities for which they volunteer are short-term.

It is also about character development for the young people, even if they are not going to get monetary gain. The test of the number of young people that we are able to absorb into employment for a long-term type activity is, in Category one, if they stay out of trouble, and continue to be good citizens. I think that that already would be a good contribution by these young people.

                         PEACE AND SECURITY
                              Cluster 1

MINISTERS:

Status of transfer of border patrols from SA National Defence Force to SA Police Service

1. Ms M M Sotyu (ANC) asked the Minister of Safety and Security:

   (a) What is the status of the transfer of border patrols from the SA National Defence Force to the SA Police Service with regard to personnel, training, resources and methods of patrol and (b) when will this process be finalised? NO2774E

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, the configuration of the protection of the borderline was decided on in 2004 and in terms of that, we removed border protection from the SA National Defence Force and replaced them with the SA Police Service. What is already happening, therefore, is that, with respect to the Northern Cape we have a police presence on the border between the Northern Cape, Namibia and Botswana.

And with respect to North West, we have a police presence with respect to that borderline between North West and Botswana. Limpopo also has police units which cover the border between Limpopo and Zimbabwe. The Free State, the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal, as you will appreciate, also have a common borderline with Lesotho. We have units there, as well.

The SANDF though continues to work side by side with the police in the protection of the borderline between Limpopo and Zimbabwe as a joint operational programme with respect to the border between KwaZulu-Natal and Mozambique. There is a training module which was developed to prepare those who will become part and parcel of the deployment to that entire borderline.

In terms of that, we are using people who already had been trained to ensure how we define rural safety regarding the borderline; and, therefore, the deployments include people who were trained in area crime combating, as well as in the old public order policing structures.

There are 14 operational bases that we have. Seven of them were run by the SANDF when they were in charge of borderline protection, but the police have established an additional seven to bring them to 14. You will recall that the first time we spoke about these changes, we said that we were giving the programme five years and that we would complete it by 2009. It continues to be the intention to complete it by the end of the financial year on 31 March 2009. Thank you very much.

Ms M M SOTYU: Thank you very much, Chair.

Ndiyabulela, Mphathiswa, ngempendulo yakho. [Thank you, Deputy President, for your reply.]

Minister, during our recent cluster oversight visit to the borders in July 2007 we established that there was a shortage of staff in all affected departments, including the police on the borders. Given this reality, will you consider deploying more police officers on our borders? I thank you.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: The matter of borderline control, like all functions that we have, undergoes regular re-assessment and re- evaluation and obviously in instances where we discover their weaknesses, we will want to address those weaknesses in various ways, including increasing our human resources to deal with that situation.

Apart from that, let me also indicate what is happening. I did indicate to this House that we were also, in the context of our policing programmes, utilising high technology. And with regard to the borderlines, therefore, indeed, there are areas where there will be static human resources who are patrolling the borders, but we are using things, for instance, the Norex fence, which is an electrical fence, as you know; but we are not using it in the old way in which it was used.

We also have what is called eco-police stations. In other words, particularly over stretches of the Limpopo and Swaziland border -over that line - we have a number of them. Not only are there people who sit in offices and monitor what is happening along the borderlines in terms of human movements, but we also have aerial surveillance being used to deal with this.

To a very large extent it is assisting us with respect to the provision of resources that will enable us to deal with borderline protection. Thank you.

Mnr R J KING: Dankie, Voorsitter. Agb Minister, dis voorwaar ‘n eienaardige vraag, komende van die voorsitter van die Portefeuljekomitee oor Veiligheid en Sekuriteit.

Die agb Sotyu vra u om die status van die oordrag van verantwoordelikheid vir grenspatrollering vanaf die Weermag na die SA Polisiediens weer te gee en vra wanneer u beplan om dié oordrag te finaliseer en dinge in plek te hê. Maar, Minister, u het reeds in 2004 belowe, u woord gegee, dat geen kommando uitgefaseer sal word voordat die Polisie gereed is om die veiligheidsvakuum ten volle te vul nie. Daar is lustig en met groot entoesiasme voortgegaan om die kommandostelsel te vernietig. Nou moet u aan die voorsitter van die portefeuljekomitee in die Parlement verduidelik hoekom ’n ernstige veiligheidswanbalans ontstaan het.

Agb Minister, ek vra vandag vir u as Minister van Veiligheid en Sekuriteit, hoekom het u troubreuk gepleeg en u woord gebreek teenoor Suid-Afrika se mense? Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr R J KING: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, this is truly an unusual question coming from the chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security.

The hon Sotyu asks you to comment on the status of the transfer of responsibility for patrolling borders from the Defence Force to the SA Police Service and asks when you plan to finalise this transfer and have things in place. But, Minister, in 2004 already, you promised, you gave your word, that no commando would be phased out before the police were ready to fill the safety vacuum entirely. Heartily and with great enthusiasm, the destruction of the commando system went ahead. Now you have to explain to the chairperson of the portfolio committee in Parliament why a serious safety imbalance has arisen.

Hon Minister, today I ask you, as Minister of Safety and Security, why did you commit this breach of faith and why did you break your word you gave South Africa’s people? Thank you.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Did the Minister manage to get the question?

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Yes, I got it. I am sorry, I have problems with my chest. So, I hope I will be able to deal with that. If I didn’t have chest problems I would explain this in Afrikaans. But my Afrikaans needs a little oomph from my chest in order for me to deal with that. [Laughter.]

Hon member, let me just explain what we mean by all of these. Firstly, there is the function of the SA National Defence Force, which is for the protection of our sovereignty to ensure that no enemies would enter South Africa for purposes of attacking us - that is the SANDF. The National Defence Force had an element called the commando system that was working with them regarding this. The decision we took was that the protection of the borderline is a crime matter.

We are stopping people from coming across the borderline to come and commit crime in South Africa; therefore, it is an anticrime project and the people who are trained for that are the police. The commandos were elements of the army and as such those elements of the army derived their authority from the army and part of their function was to support the army in the protection of our sovereignty. I hope, up to that point, we are together.

The phasing out of the commando system was a decision of the army. We no longer required this element and we then said, that being so, let us create a situation where the police will then come and deal with crime on the borderline.

Indeed, there are many people who were part of these units that we are phasing out, who are now working together with the police in a different area of work. They are working with the police with regard to rural safety. We are using them as part and parcel of our new reservist system. So, please don’t mix these two things. What we are dealing with now is the protection of the border from crime and we are using people who are trained in crime combating.

They come, as I have said, either from the area crime combating units or from the public order policing. We train them before they are deployed to protect the border.

        Progress made in establishment of Vetting Field Units

1. Mr D V Bloem (ANC) asked the Minister of Correctional Services:

   In view of the agreement to establish Vetting Field Units within departments with effect from 1 April 2007, what progress has his department made in this regard to date? NO2773E

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, the Department of Correctional Services has developed a vetting policy which I have since approved. We have furthermore moved by creating the vetting field work unit structure in line with the National Intelligence Agency, NIA, vetting strategy, and a vetting manager at the deputy director level and four vetting officers’ at assistant-director level have been appointed. A further four vetting officers’ posts and two administrative posts are in the process of being filled.

The training of vetting officers by NIA for the vetting field work unit is scheduled for February 2008. The current establishment is co-ordinating continued vetting by NIA, and 21 vetting awareness workshops have already been conducted within the Department of Correctional Services. The memorandum of understanding between us as the department and NIA has been drafted and currently it’s with NIA to formalise the good co-operation that already exists, as well as future operational arrangements. Thank you.

Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson - good afternoon, Minister - this is my follow-up question. Vetting is a very complicated and a delicate process. It needs time and patience to produce a credible and acceptable product. So, Minister, I think that you will certainly agree with me that this project must be given priority in the department. My question is: What is the size of the vetting field unit and how many members are included? Thank you very much, Minister.

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Good afternoon, Chairperson. [Laughter.] You are quite correct. Vetting is unfortunately a very labour- intensive process.

To determine the security competence of a person does not only require the consulting of databases. A database is only as good as the information that is loaded onto it. Security vetting also requires investigative field work, personal interviews, reference interviews, the evaluation of supportive documentation, etc. This is all very hard work and the co-operation between departments must be very good to be able to do this.

I have already indicated that we have employed people in this vetting field work unit. It will be quite a big structure because you will have then three deputy directors and a number of assistant directors in there. I can give you a number of about close to 21 people in each field, or more than that, and we are working towards getting to that. Thank you very much.

Moulana M R SAYEDALI-SHAH: Hon Minister, we agree that vetting of Correctional Services employees is absolutely an integral part of our strategy to fight corruption and to prevent the escape of inmates.

Now, when does the Minister think that his department will have the necessary internal vetting capacity to vet what is a very large number of employees – 35 000? So, are you satisfied that the number of vetting officers that you intend to employ will be able to sustain this on a periodical basis because you can’t vet somebody and then see a person after five years, because between then and five years down the line, anything can happen. So, do you think you will have sufficient internal capacity to do it in a sustained way and periodically? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Sayedali-Shah, I don’t think we can … [Interjections.] I’m listening to my colleagues - they all want to answer this question. So, I might as well stand here and then write down the responses, then give you the response, Chairperson. Hon Geraldine, something from you? [Laughter.]

We can never have sufficient capacity. Remember, as we are increasing these units, some people leave and go to other departments, but we also have a number of recruits that are coming into the department. If you remember when I briefed you, I said we have two colleges at which we train correctional officials. So, every year, those colleges are loaded with recruits that are coming in. So, we can never have that sufficient capacity but we are trying our best.

In terms of vetting everybody in Correctional Services, we’ll try our best to do that because it’s one department that needs a lot of cleaning up. It has not been cleaned up at all by those who were handling this department before and we are starting to do that - to clean up and make sure that everybody is vetted. We limit the capacity of the members of my department to collude and abet escapes.

     Query regarding authorisation of nolle prosequi certificate

1. Mr L K Joubert (DA) asked the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:

   Whether, due to the fact that no prosecution has been instituted against a certain person (name furnished), she will authorise a nolle prosequi certificate so that private prosecution may be instituted; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? NO2762E

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Hon member, I have been advised that a complaint against the person referred to by the hon member was laid on 29 October 2007, at the Cape Town Police Station and that a docket was opened for investigation. The matter has not been referred to the Director of Public Prosecutions. But I have to point out to the hon member that the decision to grant a nolle prosequi does not rest with the Minister. It is wholly a function of the prosecutorial authority.

Mr L K JOUBERT: Thank you, Minister, but you tend to confuse me slightly. Now you state that you cannot interfere with the prosecuting authority, but the executive did interfere when they removed the National Director of Public Prosecutions from office, without first investigating the matter.

I think, hon Minister, that you are trying to evade this issue. We are very concerned because the administration of justice in South Africa is ultimately your responsibility, or is it of no concern to you that prosecution is not forthcoming in this particular case and many similar cases? I thank you.

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Mr Chairperson, I am sure the hon member is a jester. I do not think that he seriously means to ask a question. Surely a law maker with a legal background should understand that there are processes in terms of section 12 of the National Prosecuting Authority Act for how the head, the National Director of Public Prosecutions, is appointed and dismissed. Surely.

The hon member stands in this House and says that he believes in upholding the law but he is almost advocating for us to be in breach of the law. I think the hon member must explain himself, otherwise let’s take it that he is just a big jester.

Mr J B SIBANYONI: Mr Chairperson. Hon Minister, apart from being a jester, the hon member is asking about nolle prosequi when, in fact, he exposes himself to be ignorantia legibus. Thank you, hon Minister for your educative response to this question.

Hon Minister, wouldn’t you agree with me that the DA would like the Minister to interfere when it suits them and to cry foul because what usually happens is that the people who should be brought to book are those who illegally intercept other people‘s communication?

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Mr Chairperson, just to highlight the point that the hon member makes, it is particularly those who hold public power who should conform to the law and should abide by the Constitution. So what is the disagreement? [Interjections.] He is the one who wants us to undermine the law. You speak in tongues, gentlemen.

                               RULING

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Order! Hon members, before we come to the next Question I have this ruling to make. During Question time on Wednesday 17 October, a few points of order were raised on which I undertook to consult Hansard and return to the House with a considered ruling. Having had the opportunity to study Hansard, I now rule as follows: Two points of order were raised by the hon Minister of Safety and Security. The first concerned a statement by the hon D Kohler-Barnard that, I quote: “He must tell this House why he is misleading the House”.

May I remind the House that it is not unparliamentary to accuse another member of misleading the House, only of deliberately misleading the House. Therefore, the hon Kohler-Barnard’s statement was not out of order.

In the hon Minister’s second point of order he asked the Chair to confirm whether or not he had made a particular statement. This he asked in response to the remark by the Chief Whip of the Opposition.

Again, let me reiterate that it is not the duty of the Chair to establish whether a member is being quoted correctly or incorrectly or to establish the veracity of a particular statement. If, after consulting Hansard, a member is of the opinion that he or she has been misquoted or misrepresented, he or she should utilise the various procedural mechanisms available to members to address that.

Lastly, in responding to question 353, by the hon Dr J T Delport, the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development indicated that she was not in a position to speak on a matter as it, I quote: “ may be the subject of an inquiry”. After a follow-up question was allowed, the hon D V Bloem raised this objection in the point of order. The Chief Whip of the Opposition also addressed me on the matter whereupon I undertook to return to the House with a ruling.

The House should have respect for processes occurring in another arm of government and the Minister’s statement that the matter may be the subject of an inquiry is, therefore, noted. That does not mean that the matter was sub judice at that point.

The Chair cannot prescribe to Ministers the manner in which they should respond to questions from members. However, I do believe that Ministers should use the opportunity provided by Question time to provide the House with as much information as possible to assist them in exercising their oversight function. Thank you.

SA Police Service security plan for 2010 Soccer World Cup tournament

1. Mr V B Ndlovu (IFP) asked the Minister of Safety and Security:

   Whether the SA Police Service has a comprehensive security plan for the 2010 Soccer World Cup tournament; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? NO2353E

Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Chairperson, we indicated to the Table, with apologies, that Mr Ndlovu has been held up somewhere and that he would not be available for a follow-up question. Please allow hon members to ask follow- up questions.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Are there any supplementary questions? I saw the Minister looking at me and I thought he was saying that he doesn’t need one.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, the SA Police Service is part of the comprehensive security plan for the 2010 Fifa World Cup in South Africa. Government has established a national joint operational and intelligence structure to work closely with the security structure of the Local Organising Committee and Fifa to ensure strict adherence to the dictates of the bid book – I’m sure you will remember the bid book; that’s what we used in order for us to get the tournament in the first place – with respect to the provision of safety and security for the tournament.

The project covers all aspects of safety and security, such as border security, route security, city security, stadium security and event security. The plan also provides for contingency plans to deal with any eventuality. Thank you very much.

Mr M S BOOI: Minister, we all have confidence in the police, the role that they are playing and the way they are fulfilling their constitutionally given duties. I know that with the type of confidence that we have in them, one can say that they will do very well during the 2010 Fifa World Cup.

Given the capacity of community police forums, what would you do to strengthen the involvement of communities in contributing to the success of this particular event?

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, firstly, I would like to pick up on hon Booi’s initial input with respect to this, and just remind the House that in 1995, South Africa hosted the Rugby World Cup, which we protected. In 1996, South Africa hosted the Africa Cup of Nations, which we protected. In 2003, South hosted the Cricket World Cup, which we protected. Again, we were asked by the International Cricket Council to help protect the Cricket World Cup in the West Indies, which we did.

I am not going to talk about the other events that we, as South Africans, protected. We continue, therefore, to do whatever is necessary to ensure that the 2010 Fifa World Cup will be protected.

But let me just indicate the following: that since 1995, at least, we have had an opportunity to interact with other international programmes that deal with these matters. For instance, you will recall the Summer Olympic Games held in Sydney in 2000. We had people there who were part and parcel of that experience, to ensure that we not only rely on our own measures to deal with tournaments of this nature, but also benefited from international exposure.

Again, the Fifa World Cup in South Korea and Japan in 2002 and the 2002 Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City saw our involvement as well. We participated in those events. It is a matter of public record that we were also part and parcel of the experience when the World Cup was played in Germany.

With respect to our people, I have heard some of these grumblings about this tournament. The people who love soccer in this country are not only going to enjoy that tournament, but we will also ensure that they, themselves, participate in creating conditions conducive to a spectacle of that nature.

Therefore, people will be part and parcel of whatever community endeavours are designed to provide the protection that is necessary. Thank you.

Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Minister, of course, one would have expected a full security plan for the 2010 World Cup to be professionally prepared by now and be based on that German model, following their extremely successful hosting of the World Cup. Indeed, your national Police Commissioner put his career on the block today by declaring that there would be no criminal attacks during the Soccer World Cup draw at the International Convention Centre in Durban on Friday next week.

But are you in a position to assure South African citizens that, as SAPS personnel are pulled away from their normal duties to attend to the hundreds of thousands of soccer fans expected in 2010, they aren’t simply going to be left to the mercy of the criminals who currently murder us at the rate of 52 a day?

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, in 1995, in the places where the Rugby World Cup was played, there was protection for that event. But, elsewhere in South Africa, there was also normal policing happening. This happened in 1996 and during all the other events I’ve referred to.

By the way, in 2002, we also hosted and protected one of the biggest events to be held by the United Nations, when they came to South Africa for the World Summit on Sustainable Development. Elsewhere in the country, normal policing happened, and this will always be the case.

We are not going to take the police members that we have and simply deploy all of them at the stadia where these matches are going to be played. Thank you.

Mrs P DE LILLE: Hon Minister, I just want to know whether any private security companies will be involved in your security plan, and, if so, whether they were employed through tenders and whether those tenders were approved by the SA Police Service or by Fifa? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Thank you very much for that question. Chairperson, firstly, Fifa is working in South Africa together with what is called the Local Organising Committee. Now, the Local Organising Committee of Fifa is comprised of South Africans as well as members of Fifa itself. There is a security structure that has been established there.

All contracts relating to that tournament are Fifa contracts, and Fifa, therefore, plays a crucial role in their adjudication, including the adjudication of contracts that relate to the security of the tournament. Therefore, there will come a time for private security companies to tender for participation in the tournament.

What we’ll do – which is what we have done all along - is to arrange that a private security company is responsible for the inner perimeter protection, through the use of guards and what have you, while the police are responsible for the outer perimeter. So, at all the events that I have referred to, we have worked together with the security companies. That’s how it was arranged in the past, and this will continue to be the case. Of course, Fifa, working together with the Local Organising Committee, will be responsible for the adjudication of the contracts.

Role of the South African Women in Law Association in making access to justice a reality

1. Ms N M Mahlawe (ANC) asked the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:

  Whether the newly formed South African Women in Law Association will
  assist in making access to justice a reality; if not, why not; if so,
  what are the relevant details?               NO2783E

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Yes, hon member, the South African Women in Law Association, Sawla, which was established on 6 May 2006 and launched on 1 September 2007, seeks to provide a forum to enable women lawyers to empower themselves and to participate in national policy dialogues that concern the transformation of the legal sector.

At the launch, the delegates agreed that Sawla will also provide a vehicle for women lawyers to contribute to the expansion of access to justice, particularly to women and other persons - especially to those most vulnerable. To this end, Sawla hosted a partnership with the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development for a project referred to as Access to Justice Week held from 30 July to 4 August.

I must say this was a very successful event. The issues that women dealt with there were related to the provision of services to the community at large. It covered areas such as administration of estates rights in marriages and new legislation such as the rights in domestic partnerships, the credit law, pensions, matters relating to foster parenting, domestic violence, etc. The issues were wide. But, also, the data and information they collected was fed into the general system towards improving government services to the public. Thank you.

Dr J T DELPORT: Chairperson and hon Minister, I am on dangerous ground. So, let me say right up front that I like women more than I like men. Therefore, I absolutely wish this new association well and let them play a full role.

But, Madam Minister, to think that the vexed question of access to justice can be shifted to voluntary associations, is a fairy tale. With all due respect, what we can do then is to start a lawyers’ association for teenagers, rural people and one for pensioners. I, then, will soon be able to run for president of such an association. We can start one for townships and a farmers’ one as well. My colleague, the hon Swart from the ACDP, can start a Christian lawyers’ association, and my dear friend, Imam, over there can start a Muslim lawyers’ association. Then we can sit back and have access to justice right across the board.

This is not a function and a responsibility, hon Minister. We need sympathetic police officers to give people advice and we need more legal aid. There are a lot of things that we, from government’s side, need to do if we really want proper access to justice in South Africa. Your comments please, Minister?

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: I hope that people have not heard you as I did – the members of this House - how patronising you are. It is a shame in the year 2007 when we are so advanced in our policies on gender and equity. That is the truth. [Interjections.]

Then, let me answer your question directly. What Sawla undertook was noble because as they launched, they made a commitment to solidarity with those in greater need of access to justice. That does not replace what we do as government. You cannot be so disingenuous. You surely do know of the many efforts that we make and the recent criminal justice review process and partnership that we have with business. Surely you cannot be ignorant. Surely you know that we do believe that it is a value chain where all of us in the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security cluster, have to work in a coherent manner, more efficiently in order to deliver justice to the people of this country. Surely you know that. Surely that is state policy!

Ms N M MAHLAWE: Thank you, hon Minister. I want to thank you for your comprehensive response. But I would like to say that in this arena of justice, women are disregarded and harassed. Dr Delport knows that very well. So, women have done the best they could to form this association because women are able to address their problems or issues better than any other person. I would like to ask the Minister whether there are any measures in place from the department’s side to assist this association, if they encounter problems. Thank you.

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Yes, it is the general government policy that we should advance gender equality in our country and that we should actually enable and get into partnership with the public at large - community endeavours - and assist them where we can. We will indeed assist, Comrade - as long as their programmes are programmes that advance the pursuit of justice, the entrenchment of a culture of human rights in our country and the service of justice to the people.

Mr W J SEREMANE: Chairperson, without trying to talk down to or patronise anybody, I really and deeply salute the effort that has been made by this South African Women in Law Association. If we think of the plight of women and their dependants under the gross and careless strain placed on them by delinquent and defaulting spouses or ex- spouses ignoring the lawful court orders pertaining to maintenance; the plight of those women who have been compelled to pay maintenance, instead of the other way around, to children … [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Your question, hon member.

Mr W J SEREMANE: I am coming to the question. … by crafty, manipulative husbands or spouses looms large. Is it fair that this should go on? What is it that the Ministry can do to assist this association to fight this devilish strain placed on women? Thank you.

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Thank you very much, hon member, for that remark and observation. We are truly going to assist the women who have taken it upon themselves as women lawyers to assist, in particular, in areas of maintenance. May I say that the most touching and moving members of Sawla are those that run very small practices in rural areas and in poor areas. They have actually taken it upon themselves that, without fail, they will sacrifice time to partner with us as government, once a year and help deliver services and maintenance - in particular to women and even sometimes men who actually have to look after children with very meagre means. I think it is the responsibility of all democrats in this country to support efforts of this kind as, truly, this is about advancing the rights of the child. I thank you.

 Outreach and implementation programmes made operational by SA Nepad
                         Business Foundation

1. Ms F Hajaig (ANC) asked the Minister of Foreign Affairs:

   What (a) outreach and (b) implementation programmes have been made operational by the SA Nepad Business Foundation in terms of the Nepad Implementation Strategy of South Africa, Nissa? NO2777E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr A G H Pahad): Deputy Chairperson, after discussions with the Presidency of South Africa, a number of South African business leaders, motivated by a sense of shared responsibility for and interest in the prosperity of South Africa and the African continent, voluntarily launched the National Business Foundation in August 2003 and it was subsequently incorporated as a section 21 nonprofit company in 2005. The organisation is endorsed by President Mbeki and Prof Wiseman Nkuhlu, who represented the Nepad secretariat at that time.

The NBF is currently chaired by Dr Reuel Khoza and its board of directors consists of a very representative sector of prominent leaders from our civil society and the private sector. It is a board we can be proud of. The NBF has 13 priority sectors, such as agriculture; audit and accounting; energy; finance; health care; ICT; infrastructure; mining and resources, and so forth.

We are happy that the NBF has made great strides since its inception in mobilising business support for the implementation of Nepad projects across the 13 industry sectors.

The NBF’s efforts to support and drive business initiatives within the Nepad ideals will not only generate sustainable economic growth and development for the African continent as a competitive global player, but will see Africa being fully integrated into the global economy.

This has been done and will continue through the delivery of sustainable projects for the benefit of the African people and for the prosperity of our continent through initiatives such as the key partnerships established with business, the Nepad secretariat, and government as well as institutions such as the African Development Bank, the DBSA, IDC and the various other donor organisations.

There are many specific projects but I can’t go into details, time won’t allow it. I will just mention a few. They are in the document: the Nepad e- schools project, the Western Power corridor project, the water initiative project, the legal network project, the audit and accounting project and the very important African leadership programme that has been launched with the business school at Wits that delivers a mini MBA course which hopes to develop African leadership in the private sector.

It is our view that this initiative of the NBF is very important and will help contribute to making South Africa a more prosperous country and, indeed, Africa a more prosperous continent as we try to implement the Nepad programme.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Thank you, hon Deputy Minister. I have been informed that the hon Siboza will take the follow-up question.

Mr S SIBOZA: Chairperson, thank you, Comrade Aziz. Your response has cleared the impression that Nepad has become a white elephant. You have strengthened our belief as the ANC that all stakeholders should have a buy- in in the Nepad programmes, including all programmes of foreign affairs.

You have further elaborated on the consultative processes that have taken place to ensure that structures of civil society become part of the whole programme. Can the Minister link that to what the country is doing to advance the Nepad programme now? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr A G H Pahad): Firstly, it is very important that we begin to understand that it is the first time in Africa’s history that we have an African programme for African development created by Africa and, therefore, it is one of the most important programmes that we as this generation of African leaders can run with to ensure that we have control of our own future programmes and, indeed, can determine our own direction in which we want to go.

As far as South Africa is concerned, the Nepad vision contains within it the framework of what we believe we must do in South Africa – a developmental state that is committed to involving the people in transformation of our own lives – and, therefore, Nepad becomes the most important programme Africa has ever had.

I do not believe that we have fully begun to explain the initiatives that have been taken to make sure that outside of the business initiative, which I believe is an excellent initiative with many results, we have started consultations with the labour movement, civil society in general, with the academic institutions and with other sectors in the religious community, to see how they’ve become part of this process to make Nepad a success.

We have been championing the establishment of the AU Chapter of the AUCSO, which is the first step and first time that there will be a nongovernmental structure within the AU framework which can determine the direction in which our policies in Africa must go. At the same time, South Africa is playing a leading role within the Pan-African Parliament to ensure that the legislatures become important instruments to help us project Nepad and help us achieve the Nepad objectives.

I do wish that our own Parliament will play a very important role in helping us take the message of Nepad to the rest of our community, because as I said there has never been such an initiative on the African continent. It will be the only way we can rid ourselves of control from outside.

Mrs S M CAMERER: Chairperson, it seems that one of the reasons why the ANC deems this question necessary is that so little is heard of Nepad lately and, if so, only negative things like President Wade of Senegal recently alleging, only last month in fact, that Nepad had produced few concrete results. In fact, he told a conference last month that we are spending an enormous amount of time and money on conferences, but we have not had a single project that has come to fruition.

President Wade may have overstated the case, but the point is that Nepad’s short-term action plan has produced an alleged 52 facilitation projects that are contemplated. Less than half are in some stage of implementation. Of 18 capacity-building projects only six are being implemented and of 36 investment projects only seven have been started to be implemented.

So I would like to ask the Deputy Minister if he could tell us: Are there any tangible results in the socioeconomic and sustainable development field that he can point to that would benefit the large percentage of our people who live in poverty?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr A G H Pahad): As the hon member knows, and she is probably quoting from our own briefings, let me indicate that a project like Nepad, which involves 53 countries in terms of trying to bring about an African renewal in the context of globalisation, is a very difficult initiative.

We are the first to admit that even in South Africa and in Africa in general, when we visualised this concept we did not understand the weaknesses of our capacity to build programmes to get the resources to implement what was envisioned. Therefore, it has taken us some time. We are now at the take-off stage and I believe we must not be sarcastic about the difficulties that such a programme has been confronted with, but we must look at the positive aspect. We have created the conditions for Africa to move forward in terms of the Nepad programme.

I do believe that we might have underestimated the lack of capacity on the continent. We have underestimated the commitment of the developed countries. They say they are going to put resources into these projects and then it becomes very difficult for them to implement their commitment. So with all this put together it has been a good lesson as we move on this very historic path.

As you say, we now have projects that are going to start taking off and I believe, realistically, we should have expected that. I think President Wade is correct in wanting faster movement, but President Wade is also calling for an African government yesterday, so we do not accept that haste will help us to achieve what we want to do.

We do believe that we are now on the right track and we can move positively forward using the infrastructure development programme that Africa has now initiated with our own pension funds. It is the first time that we have US$1,2 billion of funds as funded by Africans for African developments determined by our own priorities. I think that is the first time this has happened and it is an excellent basis on which we’ll have an African leadership for an African agenda.

Mrs S M CAMERER: Chairperson, I appreciate the Deputy Minister’s response. I think he must appreciate that we support the concept of Nepad, as do the other African countries, as do probably all the parties in those parliaments in the African countries, but it would be helpful if he could give us a couple of tangible examples of where our own people have benefited and where our own businesses have gotten involved in Nepad projects in Africa. He has still only given us principles and generalisations. I would be grateful for some specific instances to illustrate the points he is trying to make. Thank you, Chair.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr A G H Pahad): But, hon Camerer, I have just, in my first response, indicated how the National Business Foundation, which is representative of all the major South African companies, is working on this issue and you cannot ignore the reality that the South African private sector, for lack of a better word, is making a killing on the African continent. We are the biggest new investors on the African continent. Africa is our biggest growth for exports and, therefore, the private sector is doing very well, thank you.

What we’re trying to convince the private sector about, and what the NBC is doing, is to try to get them to understand that it is not just business as usual, making the profits and leaving the people to suffer as happened in the past. So the private sector is doing very well.

I think Africa’s development is also our development. We are in Africa; we are not a European outpost on the African continent. So when we discuss Africa we are discussing ourselves and how our people benefit from the stability that Nepad brings from the African Peer Review Mechanism process of democracy, human rights and by creating the conditions for economic growth in Africa which must benefit our people in the long run.

Mrs S M CAMERER: This seems to be a dialogue, Chairperson, but I do appreciate the opportunity. Yes, just in view of the negative publicity and the actual lack of publicity that Nepad gets, I in fact have been asked so often by business-people, “What’s Nepad? Oh, Nepad’s dead.” They actually make the statement that Nepad’s dead in the water.

In view of the projects that you’ve indicated and the progress that we all hope for, could you perhaps tell the House what is being done to promote awareness of Nepad and any positive spin-offs? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr A G H Pahad): Well, this is not only the responsibility of Foreign Affairs and the government, it’s even your responsibility because our people and the projects we are involved in within Nepad and outside Nepad, represent a big challenge. We have always said that through various structures we need to take international relations to the people. We are now having a lot of discussions with university institutions, the private sector, the labour movements and religious community to try to get a better understanding of the need for them to participate.

The actual programmes in all the briefings you had, when you were with the portfolio committee, are there. I would recommend you go to the e-mail. There are many programmes on the Nepad website which are programmes that have now been funded.

I started by saying that our experience is that developed countries continue to make commitments on programmes, but they never implement those programmes sufficiently. The World Bank has just made that statement to president Zoellick a few days ago. What we must do, both government and the opposition, is to sing from the same song sheet and not worry about anybody talking about the negative elements of what we haven’t achieved, but rather look at the building blocks that we’ve created and then I think we are right for the take-off; and join us on the take-off! No engines will fall off, I can tell you. [Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Hon members, the time allocated for Questions has expired. Outstanding replies received will be printed in the Hansard. Before we go to notice of motions, I would like to tender my brief apology to the Minister of Safety and Security about the mishap in the beginning on the Question raised by Mr Ndlovu. That was my mistake.

See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES

                        MOTION OF CONDOLENCE

                      (The late Dr P Koornhof)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House –

1) notes with sadness the passing away of Dr Piet Koornhof on Monday,
   12 November 2007, at the Stellenoord Home Care Centre in
   Johannesburg;


2) recalls that Dr Koornhof was a Member of Parliament from 1964 to
   1983, served as a Member of Cabinet from 1972 in various Portfolios
   including Immigration, Mines, Sport and Recreation, National
   Education, Plural Relations, Co-operation and Development, chaired
   the President’s Council from 1984 to 1986 and was South Africa’s
   Ambassador to the United States of America from 1987 to 1991;
3) believes that Dr Koornhof was an honest leader who publicly
   acknowledged the mistakes he committed as a Cabinet Minister during
   the apartheid era; and


4) conveys its condolences to the Koornhof family, his son the Hon
   Gerhard Koornhof who is a member of this House, and all his loved
   ones.

Motion agreed to.

The House adjourned at 17:00. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism

(a)    General Notice No 1112 published in Government Gazette No 30262
     dated 5 September 2007: Proposed Guideline regarding the
     Determination of Bioregions and the Preparation and Publication of
     Bioregional Plans in terms of the National Environmental
     Management: Biodiversity Act, 2004 (Act No 10 of 2004).
(b)    General Notice No 1108 published in Government Gazette No 30269
     dated 6 September 2007: National Norms and Standards for the
     Development of the Biodiversity Management Plans for Species (BMP-
     S) in terms of the National Environmental Management: Biodiversity
     Act, 2004 (Act No 10 of 2004).

(c)    General Notice No 1109 published in Government Gazette No 30263
     dated 7 September 2007: Policy for the Development of a Sustainable
     Marine Aquaculture Sector in South Africa, in terms of the Marine
     Living Resources Act, 1998 (Act No 18 of 1998).

(d)    General Notice No 1138 published in Government Gazette No 30284
     dated 11 September 2007: Notice to establish the National Framework
     in terms of section 7(1) of the National Environmental Management:
     Air Quality Act, 2004 (Act No 39 of 2004).

(e)    General Notice No 1146 published in Government Gazette No 30293
     dated 17 September 2007: Draft alien and invasive species
     regulations 2007, in terms of the National Environmental
     Management: Biodiversity Act, 2004 (Act No 10 of 2004).

(f)    General Notice No 1147 published in Government Gazette No 30293
     dated 17 September 2007: Draft lists of exempted alien species,
     prohibited alien species and invasive species for which a permit is
     required under certain circumstances, in terms of the National
     Environmental Management: Biodiversity Act, 2004 (Act No 10 of
     2004).

(g)    Government Notice No 878 published in Government Gazette No
     30310 dated 21 September 2007: Regulations for the prohibition of
     the use, manufacturing, import and export of asbestos and asbestos
     containing materials, in terms of the Environmental Conservation
     Act, 1089 (Act No 73 of 1989).

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

CREDA PLEASE INSERT REPORT - Insert T071114-insert1 PAGES 2238-2244