TUESDAY, 20 FEBRUARY 2007
                                ____

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
                                ____

The Council met at 10:02.

The Chairperson of the NCOP took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Mnr J W LE ROUX: Voorsitter, ek gee hiermee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag sal voorstel:

Dat die Raad kennis neem-

 1) Dat die land al verder wegsink in ’n moeras van geweldmisdaad;

 2) dat die SA Polisiediens nie die vermoë of die kapasiteit het om die
    probleem op te los nie;


 3) dat die regering sy grondwetlike plig versuim om die landsburgers te
    beskerm; en

(4) dat die SA Nasionale Weermag ingespan moet word om te help om die orde te herstel.

Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Mr J W LE ROUX: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move:

That the Council notes that –

(1) the country is subsiding ever further into a quagmire of violent crime;

(2) the South African Police Service does not have the ability or capacity to solve the problem;

(3) the government is failing in its constitutional duty to protect the country’s citizens; and

(4) the help of the South African National Defence Force should be enlisted with a view to restoring order.

I thank you.] Me H LAMOELA: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek gee hiermee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag sal voorstel:

Dat die Raad-

 1) kennis neem van die bewering van die WKOD dat daar tans te veel
    bruin en wit mans in bestuursposte is, soos uiteengesit in die pers,
    en dat dit groot kommer wek, veral in ‘n demokratiese bestel;


 2) van mening is dat, wanneer senior aanstellings gemaak word, meriete
    die deurslaggewende faktor moet wees; en


 3) glo gelykheid voor die reg mag nie op ras gebaseer word nie.

Baie dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Ms H LAMOELA: Mr Chairman, I give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move:

That the Council –

(1) notes the contention by the education department of the Western Cape that there are currently too many brown and white males in management posts, as stated in the press, and that this gives rise to grave concern, especially in a democratic dispensation;

(2) is of the opinion that, when senior appointments are made, merit should be the decisive factor; and

(3) believes that equality before the law should not be based on race.

Thank you.]

Mnr A WATSON: Voorsitter, ek gee kennis dat die DA by die volgende sitting van die Raad sal voorstel:

Dat die Raad-

 1) kennis neem dat artikel 29(2) van die Suid-Afrikaanse Grondwet
    uitdruklik sê: “Elkeen het die reg om in openbare
    onderwysinstellings onderwys te ontvang in die amptelike taal of
    tale van eie keuse waar daardie onderwys redelikerwys beskikbaar is.
    Ten einde doeltreffende toegang tot en verwesenliking van hierdie
    reg te verseker, moet die staat alle redelike alternatiewe in die
    onderwys, met inbegrip van enkel-medium-instellings, oorweeg, met
    inagneming van -


    (a) billikheid;
    (b) doenlikheid; en


    (c) die behoefte om die gevolge van wette en praktyke van die
         verlede wat op grond van ras diskrimineer het, reg te stel.”;


 2) van mening is dat hierdie reg egter nie beteken dat ‘n persoon
    onderrig in ‘n amptelike taal van sy keuse by alle
    staatsonderwysinstellings kan ontvang nie;


 3) van mening is dat, volgens die Suid-Afrikaanse Skolewet, ‘n
    beheerligaam van ‘n skool die mag het om die taal van onderrig in
    daardie skool te bepaal; en


 4) derhalwe–

    (a) kennis neem van die reeks hofbeslisings van die afgelope dae ten
         opsigte van die taalbeleid van die Hoërskool Ermelo;


    (b) sy misnoeë uitspreek oor die proses wat deur Mpumalanga se
         onderwysdepartement gevolg is ten opsigte van hierdie
         aangeleentheid; en


      c) ten sterkste beswaar maak teen die toetrede van die nasionale
         Minister van Onderwys tot hierdie aangeleentheid. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Mr A WATSON: Chair, I give notice that at the next sitting of the Council the DA will move:

That the Council –

(1) notes that section 29(2) of the South African Constitution states clearly: “Everyone has the right to receive education in the official language or languages of their choice in public educational institutions where that education is reasonably practicable. In order to ensure the effective access to, and implementation of, this right, the state must consider all reasonable educational alternatives, including single medium institutions, taking into account -

    (a)      equity;


    (b)      practicability; and


    (c)      the need to redress the results of past racially
         discriminatory laws and practices.”;

(2) is of the opinion that this right, however, does not mean that a person can receive tuition in an official language of his or her choice at all state educational institutions;

(3) is of the opinion that, according to the South African Schools Act, the governing body of a school has the power to determine the language of tuition in that school; and

(4) therefore -

    (a)      takes note of the series of court decisions of the past
         few days in respect of the      language policy of Ermelo High
         School;


    (b)      expresses its displeasure regarding the process followed
         by the Mpumalanga    education department in respect of this
         matter; and


    (c)      objects in the strongest possible terms to the
         intervention by the national Minister of Education in this
         matter.]

                   CONGRATULATIONS TO RUGBY TEAMS

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr D A WORTH: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council-

(1) is heartened by the good performance of our rugby teams over the weekend;

 2) expresses a special word of congratulations to the Cheetahs on
    their fine win;

 3) is sure that the Blue Bulls will still play a major role in the
    Super 14 competition;

 4) congratulates the Sharks who are currently at the top of the log;
    and

 5) recognises that South Africa is truly proud of all its teams
    competing in the Super 14.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                 FLAGSHIP PROJECTS IN THE FREE STATE

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN: Chairperson, I move without notice: That the Council notes that–

(1) the Premier of the Free State, during her state of the province address on Friday, 16 February 2007, announced that the Free State government would be scaling up economic activities in the province through the following flagship projects;

    (a)      the development of the N8 corridor;


    (b)      the rehabilitation and revival of the rail network from
          Thaba Nchu to Bloemfontein;


    (c)      the establishment of cement manufacturing plants in
          Hennenman and surrounding areas;


    (d)      the construction of an international convention centre
          which will be linked to other 2010 initiatives such as the
          revamping of the Bloemfontein Airport; and


    (e)      infrastructure delivery emphasising the EPWP production
          model; and

(2) this mass targeted approach will result in the creation of jobs and the eradication of poverty in the province.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                  BUS ACCIDENT IN MAKHADO, LIMPOPO

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr J M SIBIYA: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council-

(1) notes the accident involving two buses at Makhado, Limpopo, in which 17 people were killed and 47 injured; and

(2) conveys its condolences to those families and friends who lost their loved ones and wishes those who are in hospital a quick recovery.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                        MOTION OF CONDOLENCE

                      The late Mrs A F M Tambo

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council- (1) notes with profound sadness the death on Wednesday, 31 January 2007, of struggle icon Mama Adelaide Frances Matlala Tambo;

(2) recognises that Mama Adelaide Tambo represented in her very being and lived her life in a manner that served as an indestructible monument to the values and practice of ubuntu;

(3) recalls that Ma Tambo was an activist who from an early age vowed to dedicate her life to the fight against discrimination, oppression and human suffering and as a teenager became politically active in the ANC at a time when the Congress was itself becoming more militant and assertive;

(4) remembers that as an early recruit to the fledging ANC Youth League the young Adelaide Tshukudu - her maiden name - excelled as an organiser, a leader and a unifier, and that the qualities she demonstrated during her early years of political activity were to remain an integral part of her character throughout her involvement in the liberation struggle;

(5) further remembers that Adelaide Tambo was called upon to bear the burden of dislocation and exile and the disruption of family life and that she bore such hardships with fortitude, knowing that her family’s circumstances were not unlike the experiences of thousands of our people whose family members were in exile, prison or underground; (6) acknowledges the great contribution that the late Mama Tambo made as a Member of Parliament from 1994 to 1999;

(7) believes that she discharged her responsibilities with dedication, discipline, diligence and humility and that the life of this great leader epitomises heroism and commitment to the cause of our people; and

(8) conveys its condolences to the Tambo family and the ANC.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

    CONDOLENCES ON PASSING AWAY OF BROTHER OF CHAIRPERSON OF NCOP

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council-

 1) notes-


       a) the passing away of the brother of the Chairperson of the
          NCOP, Zulu Solomon Mahlangu; and


       b) that he will be buried on Saturday, 24 February 2007, at
          07:00 at Dindela, Limpopo; and

 2) extends its sympathy and condolences to the Mahlangu family and
    friends and wishes them strength during this time of difficulty.
    May his soul rest in peace.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

CONGRATULATIONS TO PROTEAS ON WINNING ONE-DAY SERIES AGAINST PAKISTAN

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr B J TOLO: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council-

(1) congratulates the Proteas on winning the one-day series against Pakistan;

(2) notes that the Proteas are now regarded as Number 1 in the world; and (3) wishes them well in the World Cup that will take place in the Caribbean very soon.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

       APPOINTMENT OF MEMBERS TO SERVE ON MEDIATION COMMITTEE

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I move the draft resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:

That the Council appoints the following members to serve on the
Mediation Committee in respect of the Foodstuffs, Cosmetics and
Disinfectants Amendment Bill [B 35D-2005] (National Assembly - sec 76):

Ntwanambi, N D - Western Cape
Tolo, B J - Mpumalanga
Matlanyane, H F – Limpopo
Van Rooyen, C J – Free State
Sulliman, M A – Northern Cape
Tlhagale, O J – North West
Krumbock, G R – KwaZulu-Natal
Sogoni, E M – Gauteng
Le Roux, J W – Eastern Cape

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I shall now put the question. The question is that the motion be agreed to. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegates are present in the House to cast their provinces’ votes. Are all delegation heads present? They are.

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces an opportunity to make their declarations of vote, if they so wish. Is there any province that wishes to do so? There is none. We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do so in alphabetical order. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour of or against, or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Eastern Cape votes in favour.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Free State?

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN: Free State ondersteun. [Free State supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Gauteng?

Ms N M MADLALA-MAGUBANE: Gauteng supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI: KwaZulu-Natal elethu. [KwaZulu-Natal supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Limpopo?

Mr O M THETJENG: Limpopo ondersteun. [Limpopo supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mpumalanga?

Ms F NYANDA: Mpumalanga supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Northern Cape?

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Noord-Kaap ondersteun. [Northern Cape supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: North West?

Mr A J L MOSEKI: North West e ema nokeng. [North West supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Western Cape?

Mr N J MACK: Western Cape supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: All nine provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the motion agreed to in terms of section 65 of the Constitution.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

    NATIONAL CURRICULUM STATEMENT AND THE ROLE THE NCOP MUST PLAY

                             (Statement)

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Before I come to the subject for discussion as printed on the Order Paper, I want to make a statement. Before us this morning is the topic for debate on the challenges experienced with the implementation of the National Curriculum Statement.

Today’s debate is part of our implementation of our Programme 2009, which identifies the role the NCOP must play in respect of policy issues. It states that the NCOP must promote discussions on policy issues with a view to improving understanding and providing a platform for public debate on issues critical to service delivery and development.

The NCOP, through provincial delegations and Salga, must sponsor debates on national policy issues that are informed by the provinces and local government service delivery challenges.

It is therefore important for us to have a space to be able to reflect on some of the critical policy issues. This is the purpose of today’s debate. Earlier this year we as presiding officers attended a workshop, part of which was to look at the critical service delivery areas for this year. In the course of our discussions we resolved that as presiding officers we would ensure that each quarter of the year we identified a public policy issue for debate.

Members are aware that education is a very critical area when it comes to service delivery and the transformation of our society. It was therefore not unexpected, when we decided on these quarterly debates on public policy issues, to look at education first. There are some challenges with regard to the implementation of the National Curriculum Statement. It is an area in which provinces have a keen interest, because they are at the coalface of delivery when it comes to its implementation. The future of society, more especially ours, rests on education. Therefore, the kind of education and the circumstances under which our children learn are critical. We need an environment that must assist our learners, irrespective of whether they are to succeed. It is therefore our responsibility to support the educational success of our children, because in doing so we are already designing a better future for them and for our society.

Through this debate we hope to reflect on the challenges that may stand in the way of our becoming competent at achieving better outcomes. The debate will assist our committees in following up on the implementation of the National Curriculum Statement as key to the success of our learners and educators.

We will continue with similar debates throughout the year, focusing on such areas as local government and social development. We expect the provinces to sponsor the specific areas that they would like us to focus on when we debate those issues in the months to come as we are doing today. We invited quite a number of MECs to be here today. Unfortunately, I have realised that there is only one MEC - from the Eastern Cape. I want to thank you very much for coming here to participate in this debate. Thank you. [Applause.]

CHALLENGES THAT WE FACE WITH THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE NATIONAL CURRICULUM STATEMENT

                      (Subject for Discussion)

Mr B J TOLO: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister of Education, hon MEC for education in the Eastern Cape - the brand new MEC - special delegates if there are any, comrades and friends, the war against poverty and squalor is raging in our country, South Africa. The most important weapon we have in our armoury is an artillery piece called education. World experience has shown that this is a dependable weapon that can be used to propel any country from underdevelopment and backwardness to all-round prosperity.

Barely 50 years ago countries such as Japan and other Asian tigers were underdeveloped. Today they are economic giants, not because they are endowed with mineral resources but because they realised correctly that the best investment a country can ever make is, in fact, an investment in the grey matter enclosed in the skull of a human being - that the most effective weapon in the struggle for lifting a country out of the quagmire of poverty is in the artillery piece called education.

Prior to 1994 the apartheid education system sought to emphasise the teaching of manual skills among blacks as opposed to cognitive skills. This ensured that blacks remained the hewers of wood and drawers of water and also remained the servants of the white population. This status quo could not remain after the attainment of liberation in 1994. We had to move with speed to change the education landscape in our country so that it reflected the democratic values and all other values enshrined in our Constitution.

We have had to pass laws that can provide a legal framework for us to introduce a new system of education that will enable our country to compete favourably in the global economy. In his opening address to Parliament in 1999, the President had this to say, and I quote:

We must ensure that education and training constitute the decisive drivers in our effort to build a winning nation. Government will therefore intensify its focus on education so that we succeed in our effort to produce an educated and appropriately skilled population.

In 1997 the then Minister of Education, Prof Bhengu, announced the intention of government to introduce a new education curriculum known as Curriculum 2005. We knew then, as we know today, that the implementation of this curriculum would be a daunting task and not a path adorned with roses. We also knew that the introduction of this curriculum would be an epoch- making event in the history of the schooling system in our country. It would provide our children with an opportunity to develop their potential to the fullest in order to contribute meaningfully in our country.

This curriculum was to be implemented incrementally until it covered the whole schooling system. Last year, with the introduction of the National Curriculum Statement in Grade 10, it was envisaged that in 2008 matriculants would write their first examination based on the new curriculum. This is therefore the last phase of implementation of this new curriculum.

In the implementation of this new curriculum, there was a disjuncture. In the old curriculum the subject matter was at the centre of any learning situation. The teacher was the custodian of the subject matter, which he or she was to impart to learners. The new curriculum puts the learner at the centre, and the teacher is expected to be a facilitator and not a person to recite knowledge to the learners. This meant that teachers had to be reskilled, some of them in areas of learning in which they have never had academic or even professional training.

Herein lies our Achilles heel. We are experiencing several challenges with regards to the smooth running of the National Curriculum Statement. These challenges can be regarded as labour pains in the birth of a new system. In the year 2000 the then Minister of Education appointed a review committee on Curriculum 2005. Among other things, they found that successful implementation depended on school environment, which meant that schools with proper infrastructure, resources and a good financial base were better placed to succeed. These were mostly model C schools. Due to a lack of all- round resources, schools in townships and rural areas found it very difficult to implement this new curriculum. This situation is currently still the order of the day.

When we speak to educators in our constituencies about the new curriculum, we find that the majority of them do not feel confident about what they are doing in the classroom situation. They feel that they have been thrown in the deep end due to inadequate training and lack of support at school level. This leads to a situation in which enthusiastic and committed teachers become demotivated.

The successful implementation of the new curriculum depends largely on its foot soldiers, people at the cutting edge, educators and their understanding of what is expected of them. If this is not realised quickly, we will experience a scaling down of results in matric when 2008 comes as we saw in Grade 10 last year.

A programme by the Department of Education is broadcast on SABC on Saturdays to enhance the educators’ understanding of the new curriculum. This programme is highly appreciated, although it does not really go a long way towards alleviating the problems faced by our educators.

Another major outcry we come across in the length and breadth of our country is that there is a very serious shortage of curriculum implementers. In certain regions, such as the Nkangala in Mpumalanga, there are few or no curriculum implementers for certain learning areas, such as economics and life orientation. To expect educators or even students to do well in these learning areas when there is either no assistance or very little assistance is to expect the impossible.

We therefore urge the provinces to employ enough curriculum implementers if this new educational system is to succeed. It is not enough to call educators into some workshop in the afternoon to tell them what is expected of them. It is our considered view that, because we are breaking new ground, the educators need to be baby-sat at school level until we are sure that they understand what is expected of them.

At the beginning of the new year we were faced with practical problems with regard to the failed Grade 11s. Those who passed Grade 10 were coming to Grade 11 on the basis of the new curriculum and those who failed Grade 11 were still on the old curriculum. They could not be mechanically mixed due to the different curricula they were doing. This led to a situation in which different provinces and even schools within a province sought different solutions. Some schools refused to readmit the failed Grade 11s. Others admitted only those who were doing mathematics in Grade 11, and refused those who did not. There are those who were promoted en masse to Grade 12 with the aim that they will register with Abet at the end of the year so that their results cannot be negatively affected at the end of the year.

Basically, there has been a lot of confusion as to what it is that needs to be done with the failed Grade 11s. The point here is that there is no coherent policy as to what is to be done by different provinces. We were happy to learn last week that the Minister of Education correctly instructed the Eastern Cape, which had promoted all the failed Grade 11s to Grade 12, to take those learners back to Grade 11. We think that was correct. Our concern, however, is with the situation we have described above about the shortages of curriculum implementers. Will these students get the adequate support they need to catch up with the new curriculum in Grade 11? That is the question.

We therefore recommend in this regard - and we are going to suggest this recommendation to the provinces - that where distances are not a factor, where schools are in close proximity like in townships, these students be grouped together in one school and be given concentrated support. Otherwise, the support will be thinly spread and these learners will not cope with the new curriculum, given the fact that they failed Grade 11 using the old curriculum. The country has to move with speed to correct these discrepancies if we are to realise what the President said in 1999, when he opened Parliament:

There can be no dispute in our country that we have moved and continue to move in the right direction with regard to education, despite the challenges we have mentioned above.

The laws of dialectics teach us that when a new baby is born there will always be a struggle of the old which wants to preserve itself. These, as we said earlier, are therefore but labour pains. Our tried and tested artillery piece needs to be deployed accurately. The distance to the target must be calculated properly if it is to deliver a telling blow to the enemy of poverty and squalor.

In conclusion, we want to acknowledge the thousands of our teachers out there who, despite all the problems we have mentioned, are actually doing their best. They are the unsung heroes without whom we cannot do. I thank you. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, hon Tolo. I forgot to mention that we also invited the Department of Education to participate in this debate. The Deputy Minister is here with us. Thank you, Deputy Minister, for coming to participate in the debate.

Ms H LAMOELA: Hon Chair, hon Deputy Minister, hon MEC of education for the Eastern Cape and members, providing access to an adequate education forms the cornerstone for greater justice of and equality in opportunities. Our schooling system should therefore level the playing fields and enhance and protect every individual’s chances in life.

Giving every South African a fighting chance starts at the beginning, by ensuring that our schools deliver on the promise of literacy and numeracy. A challenge facing us is the severe shortage of qualified mathematics and science teachers, especially at the secondary school level, which has been identified as a major factor inhibiting development. Without better maths and science education, we will not be able to produce the engineers, software developers, researchers and accountants that we so desperately need for faster economic growth. The failure to deal decisively with this shortcoming threatens to leave South Africa behind in a highly skilled and globally competitive environment. Voorsitter, dit wil voorkom asof plattelandse skole die negatiefste geraak word deur die implementering van die nuwe kurrikulum. Nie net swoeg onderwysers steeds met oorvol klasse, soms byvoorbeeld met ’n verhouding van 1:50 nie, maar hulle word ook intens gekniehalter deur ’n gebrek aan nodige hulpmiddels om geregtigheid te laat geskied.

Die afwesigheid van selfs oudiovisuele apparaat in sommige sekondêre skole, veral in die platteland, wek steeds kommer. Uiters beperkte opleiding wat dan ook in beperkte tydsduur aan onderwysers oorgedra word deur soms, soos vertel, onvindingryke adviseurs of aanbieders is kommerwekkend. Onderwysers tree soms meer verward, onseker en verslae uit dié opleidingsessies. Geen wonder dat sommige se moraal reeds veel te wense oorlaat nie.

Gereelde monitering, ondersteuning en assessering deur vakadviseurs of kringinspekteurs kan bydra tot baie beter resultate vir die leerders sowel as onderwysers. Amalgamering of interaksie met ander departemente soos gesondheid, veiligheid en maatskaplike dienste in skoolverband kan geïmplementeer word om dissipline en prestasies van leerders, asook ondersteuning van onderwysers te bevorder. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Chairperson, it would appear as if rural schools are the worst affected by the implementation of the new curriculum. Not only do teachers battle with classes that are still overcrowded, for instance a ratio of 1:50, but they are also severely hampered by a lack of the necessary resources to do justice to education.

Even the absence of audio-visual apparatus in some secondary schools, especially in the rural areas, is still a cause for concern. The severely limited training that is also presented to teachers within time constraints by sometimes, as is told, inexperienced advisors and presenters is reason for concern. Sometimes teachers emerge from these training sessions even more confused, uncertain and despondent. It is no wonder that the morale of some already leaves much to be desired.

Regular monitoring, support and assessment by subject advisors and circuit inspectors can contribute to far better results for the learners as well as the teachers. Mergers or interaction with other departments such as those dealing with health, safety and social services within in the school context could be implemented to improve discipline and learners’ performance, as well as support for teachers.]

The system of phases serves to undermine the intention of the department to improve the quality of education for our children, because a child is not allowed to repeat a class twice. The nondelivery of learner-support material or its late allocation to schools, especially for the new curriculum, still remains a problem. Transport for pupils is also bound to be a problem in view of bus companies refusing to ferry children, claiming nonpayment by the department.

Poorly performing schools present a dual challenge; firstly, how to support poorly performing schools; and secondly, how to hold education departments education accountable for providing support and resources to these schools.

Tydens ’n gesprek met ’n paar plattelandse onderwysers het dit aan die lig gekom dat die groot administratiewe werklading wat met die nuwe kurrikulum gepaard gaan onderwys knel en dat die vlak van voorbereiding hierdeur erg geraak word. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[During a discussion with a few rural teachers it came to light that the enormous administrative work load associated with the new curriculum hampers teaching and that the level of preparation is severely affected by this.]

In conclusion, teachers will thus need clear direction and lots of support and training from the Department of Education to eradicate the challenges facing both educator and learner. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr J MAKGATO (Eastern Cape): Thobela! [Greetings!]. Ke Mmirwa wo, Mmirwa mahlo matala maseba se yena. [Praise.] Allow me, Chair, Deputy Chair, Deputy Minister, to enter this debate. As I enter this debate, let me dispel this notion around the Eastern Cape. We consulted the Minister and we are the only department that did so. The Minister, equally, dispelled this notion with the director-general and we discussed it. But, surely, because we consulted, it seems we would be in the papers. It was interesting to note that after the pronouncement by the Minister there was a headline in The Sowetan that said, “All Grade 11s in Gauteng must go back.”

It’s equally interesting that as we were consulting, the Western Cape was also battling with the same thing. I am just dispelling the confusion regarding our being at loggerheads with the Minister. We have been in consultation and we have looked at all the options that were given. We have debated, and it was agreed that the Minister would write to me to say what the direction was. I just wanted to dispel this notion because it is not an Eastern Cape thing; it is a national thing.

Upon entering this debate it is extremely difficult, coming from the Eastern Cape, not to look at the demise of the people and equate it with apartheid. The Eastern Cape, especially on the western and the central side of the province, has been the reserve of mines. All the mineworkers are there now, because the mines have closed and they are maimed and that only adds to what was intended – which means that education was intended to ensure that a black person only be prepared in a certain way. Having said that, it is equally true that education has to evolve.

If we look at the report of the United Nations, South Africa is lagging far behind in terms of human capital development. The National Curriculum Statement is correcting that and, of course, you can even go to the private sector, as once you begin to put anything together you will struggle.

I can tell you that at a company I will not mention and that I worked for, we were trained and we were taken all over but when the switch-on time came, everybody was diving and jumping for the phone, because what was in front of them was not what was envisaged. Even now, as we struggle with this, we are beginning to ask: Why a National Curriculum Statement? South Africa can ill afford to keep on importing skills. We don’t even have enough town planners, road planners and road engineers. We rely on people from outside. If we are to ensure that we are indeed a developing country, we have to move towards the National Curriculum Statement.

What is it then that we are doing in the Eastern Cape? We are talking to all the universities, because they have BSc students who would like to be released and join our winter schools to ensure that they take part in assisting teachers as well as learners.

Secondly, we are looking at the learner, at teacher-support material and asking what their definitions are so that we don’t reduce them to what they are at present. We are looking at the e-learning areas and saying that some of the things could be found, but people must know how to find them. It is encouraging, though, that in the eastern part it is happening. The Minister dropped everything to launch two computer labs at a primary school near Port Elizabeth. That’s the route to go. We are also in partnership with Social Development. We are looking at the pre-Grade Rs to say: Start them early to ensure that by the time they are in Grade R, Grade 1 and Grade 2 they will be able to read and write. Their skills will be there.

In conclusion, I would like to say that indeed the National Curriculum Statement is here to stay, and it does not need us; we need it as a country. We must ensure that everybody is aware that we need it. That’s why it is necessary for me as the MEC to meet with chiefs so that they also begin to understand that even kings should be able to pronounce on this National Curriculum Statement. I thank you. [Applause.]

Ms B L MATLHOAHELA: Thank you, hon Chair. I greet the Deputy Minister of Education, the MEC for education in the Eastern Cape, Chairpersons, Deputy Chairpersons, all Members of Parliament present and all protocol observed. As the theme for this year goes, so will we deepen the debate, Mzansi. Education, as we all know, is an extremely important area in our developing country. Due to years of purposeful, lawful oppression, we still need years to educate our people, even on some basic values such as keeping our own living areas clean in particular areas.

One of the challenges that the ID foresees in the National Curriculum Statement is the foundation phase, which focuses on the primary skills, knowledge and values which ensure the development of further learning. This phase is a critical stage because it touches the foundation laid in our homes; the basic values of the rich and the poor, people of colour and others, as well as different cultures.

Outcomes-based education is needed to break down some of our foundations and rebuild with an adaptation purpose. The rich child will be the advanced one, even in the primary assessment phase, due to his or her rich background. When we look at schools during intervals, observing the groupings, the divides are still very obvious. It is like separate building blocks coming together again in the classrooms. The ID trusts that these divides will be bridged by the National Curriculum Statement. I thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Mr O M THETJENG: Chairperson, Deputy Minister, hon members, welcome and compliments of the new season – albeit belated. This debate is taking place at the right time, when the Grade 10s have performed dismally with the introduction of the new Curriculum Statement.

In this year, Grade 11 is also introduced and will be in the same situation the Grade 10s found themselves in. How do you introduce a new curriculum when teachers are not properly trained in handling it? This only shows how disorganised the Department of Education is, or maybe it shows the disorganisation in the governing party. The question that one asks is: Have we employed competent personnel in the planning division? If yes, why does the department introduce something that cannot be successfully taught to learners?

There is the good, the bad and the ugly taking place in schools. The good is parents sending their children to school for them to be taught by teachers who are willing to do their job. The bad is that most of the teacher-training institutions have been shut down. The provision of well- trained teachers has stagnated. Open these institutions and train teachers well in advance before a new curriculum is introduced. Planning is critical and must be done efficiently. Don’t put the cart before the horse.

For the first time ANC speakers who spoke before me have acknowledged the wrongs that are taking place. We commend you for that, because we know that this organisation is in denial, just like they have been with the HIV/Aids story in Health. The ugly is that not all the learner-teacher support material was delivered to schools, yet the public has been assured that the delivery of this material occurred at the end of 2006.

I have been informed that some of these materials will be available towards the end of the first term or at the beginning of the second term. This situation affects both primary and secondary levels. How then do we proceed with the new curriculum in this chaotic manner? If only the ANC government was able to swallow before it chewed.

Train teachers, supply learners and teachers with the material needed in order for them to teach in class. Let us not forget the ANC government specialises in denial. They deny the conditions in the classrooms and that teachers are not coping – so hire more.

Learning materials are not delivered on time – change the way that this is done. There is a shortage of teachers, particularly for maths and science and technological education, because most, if not all, teacher-training colleges have been shut down. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

Apartheid was wrong. Affirmative action in its current form is wrong. Review it. Experienced maths and science teachers were allowed to exit the system because it was said that they were not relevant. An analysis of the 2005-06 annual reports for all 26 national departments has revealed that the government has some 40 000 vacant posts; an average of 10% of all posts that it is simply unable to fill. The concern within education is about the ability to properly supply people with the skills that they need to obtain and retain a job.

The DA has answers. We will make sure that we provide you with a free service that you are not going to pay for. [Interjections.] An analysis of the key relevant institutions designed to keep South Africans with the right skills and expertise shows that they are neither functioning properly nor delivering the right product. These institutions include secondary and tertiary education institutions, further education and training colleges, and the Setas. So let us get back to the basics and our education will provide people with the right skills for the economy. Thank you, Chairperson. This is free advice that the DA is providing. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr N D HENDRICKSE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, MECS and hon members, the National Curriculum Statement advocates an inclusive approach by specifying minimum requirements for all learners. This means that educators will be expected to apply the principle of inclusion when designing their curriculum. The special educational, social, emotional and physical needs should be addressed in the design and development of appropriate learning programmes.

Therefore, teachers should be capacitated to deal with the above-mentioned. Many of them are not coping and many of them are leaving. There are four cornerstones as central strategies to form the seeds of these democratic values: critical thinking, creative expression through art, a critical understanding of history and of multilingualism.

The problem areas are the following. Teachers are not well trained to implement the system. Besides this, they must divide their attention between management duties and instructor time. Some assistance is required. Furthermore, content-teaching time is reduced, and actual content material is cut.

The question arises whether we are giving our children a modernised version of gutter education. Even the D-G in his report last year admitted that the Grade 8’s had a serious reading problem. Given the research-orientated nature of learning, how do learners in rural areas and townships – I want to concur with you, Chairperson – cope with little or no access to libraries and the Internet? What we need in South Africa is a hybrid system. We need to sit down and look at this thing critically. We cannot bury our heads in the sand.

The rationale for government appointing first-time teachers instead of governing bodies does not bode well at all. It is like the apartheid system that we battled with in the 1970s and 1980s.

Finally, the process of learning is as important as the outcomes. We are focusing on outcomes, and the process of learning is somehow forgotten. To accomplish these goals, we have to have effective co-ordination between four key human resource development pillars, two of which have significant implications for the Minister of Education. These two are building a solid foundation, which includes early childhood development, and general education and adult education and training, all of which are key priorities of the Ministry. We need to ensure a supply of skills from the FET band of the NQF, which anticipates and responds to specific needs in society. There must be awareness of the unevenness in management capacity, financial management expertise, governance capacity and institutional capacity. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Deputy Chair, we from the Northern Cape would like to convey our condolences to the Chairperson of the NCOP on the loss of his brother. May God bless his family.

Chairperson, hon members, Deputy Minister and MECs present here today, South Africa’s 1994 democratic elections marked a turning point for education and curriculum development in our country. Curriculum 2005 was introduced in 1997, and it was the most significant curriculum in the education sector of our country. As the first major curriculum of the democratic government of South Africa, it signalled a drastic break with the past. The revision of the Curriculum 2005 resulted in a Draft Revised National Curriculum Statement for Grades R to 9.

The Revised National Curriculum Statement streamlined and strengthened Curriculum 2005 and continued to be committed to outcomes-based education. It is part of the process of transforming education and training to realise the aims of a democratic society and of our Constitution. Schools have been implementing Curriculum 2005 since 1998. It was subsequently revised in the light of public comment during 2001 and 2002.

The Revised National Curriculum Statement is thus not a new curriculum, but it is in actual fact streamlining and strengthening Curriculum 2005. It keeps intact the principles, the purpose and the thrust of Curriculum 2005, and affirms the commitment to OBE. The introduction of the new curriculum into schools is not a uniquely South African phenomenon. Across the world, developed and developing countries have, in recent years, revised their school and higher education curricula to take into account the knowledge and skills required to participate in the globalising 21st century of this world.

The introduction of the curriculum in Grades 10 to 12 of our schools marks the end of a long process of restructuring the education system in South Africa. Home-grown reading culture research shows that the more often babies and young children are exposed to stories, pictures and books, the easier they find the process of learning to read and write when they get to school. Alarmingly, 90% of young children in South Africa have no access to any books at all. Many children grow up on farms where parents are, in most cases, illiterate. Not only are these children far less likely to have access to books, but they are also not immersed in a culture of reading where literacy is modelled as a meaningful activity at an early age. South African children are also deeply disadvantaged because there are so few books written for very young children in their own languages, and with illustrations from their own context.

This state of affairs poses constraints on the good intentions of the Revised National Curriculum Statement. In South Africa, educators are mainly trained in English or Afrikaans. Often those who have been trained in a second language find it difficult to teach how to read and write in isiXhosa, for example, though it may be their first language.

It is widely accepted, for instance, that language proficiency is a major indicator of mathematics and science performance. Academics at South African universities are quite clear that they cannot accept students into higher degree courses in science, irrespective of whether their mathematics and science aptitude is excellent, unless they have a sound grasp of a language and can both read and write English or Afrikaans.

The challenge for the curriculum is the promotion of teaching in mother- tongue language from the foundation phase to perhaps a tertiary level, particularly content courses in African languages. Many children read and write in a second language, which makes it more difficult to acquire literacy skills in the early stages of formal education.

Whilst the national language policy is sound, the practice is questionable. It is clear that urgent interventions are required in our economy, and in order to gain the necessary academic and social skills which only come through literacy.

The Education department’s Revised National Curriculum Statement of 2005 recognises that language shapes identity and knowledge. However, the ability to express ideas in writing or to comprehend written language is never as sound as it should be. This affects learning in all areas of the curriculum.

It is important to look at the inputs and outputs of our systems. Tracing a learner from Grade R up to Grade 12 is very important. We need to ask ourselves: What are we producing these learners for? Are they easily absorbed into the job market? If they definitely are being absorbed, then we can contribute to the economy of our country.

Continual assessment is of vital importance throughout the year. This requires working constantly, and teachers are required to include a variety of suitable assessment methods, tools and forms to assess pupils. Each teacher should have a clear and concise knowledge of what each method and tool offers.

In conclusion, the ongoing restructuring of education is fundamental to the sociopolitical and economic transformation of South Africa. We should be able to achieve real progress and consolidation of our achievements in this sector. We should not only focus on matriculants and their results, but also on paying attention to the enhancement of the quality of the entire schooling system. All different bands are equally important – early childhood development is important. Then there is the general education band, and the further education and training band. These are supposed to build on one another.

What makes it also more challenging to us is the issue of our suppliers who were supposed to support us with learner-support material. In our province, the Northern Cape, we experienced a problem in that the suppliers could not keep up with the supply of these books to the schools. It was not a question of books being stored in storerooms and things like that. These are things that we need to address at the end of the day.

Lastly, I would like to say that our school governing bodies could also play an important role in assisting our teachers and educators in our schools. Ke a leboga. [I thank you very much.] [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Hon Deputy Chairperson, MEC for education from the Eastern Cape, hon members, on behalf of the Ministry I too would like to convey my sincere condolences to the Chairperson for the loss in his family. I would also like to pay special tribute to Mama Adelaide Tambo, who epitomised the character and nature of an appropriate and ideal citizen in South Africa by emphasising the values of ubuntu, of nation- building and the creation of a nonracial and nonsexist society.

It’s important that we reflect on her life and what was in the values she espoused, because part and parcel of our National Curriculum Statement is not only providing quality knowledge or information, but also the values that we emphasise to ensure that our learners in our schools are clear about the kind of citizens we would like them to become - democratic citizens of South Africa, part of the continent of Africa and good global citizens.

This year we also celebrate 90 years since the birth of Oliver Reginald Tambo, and it’s quite interesting that we do so. The relevance of this celebration can also be seen in the fact that when O R Tambo went to the University of Fort Hare to do his BSc, he was offered a choice of subjects. He chose to do mathematics, and was asked why he chose mathematics when no other black students had done so. He spoke as an aspiring teacher and answered: “If I do not do mathematics as a black person, those that are going to succeed me are not going to be inclined towards mathematics”. And he assumed the responsibility of ensuring that, notwithstanding its difficulty and notwithstanding its cognitive demands, he pursued a BSc course majoring in mathematics and, indeed, did extremely well.

O R Tambo, indeed, represented the vision of a new South Africa for our people. We are also commemorating the passing away of the first Nobel laureate in South Africa, Chief Albert Luthuli. He stood for reconciliation, he stood for nation-building, and he stood for democracy. I think it’s important, as Members of Parliament and also as members belonging to the educational fraternity, that we reflect on the importance of stressing what these leaders have brought to this country and the kind of values that they espoused during their lifetimes.

We will also, obviously, be commemorating the passing away of Steve Biko. He stood for pride; pride in the consciousness of black people, pride in the fact that you should not regard yourself as inferior, and pride in the fact that we are equal as citizens. I think that as we reflect on the passing of these distinguished personalities, we should, indeed, say we are blessed as a country.

We are blessed for many reasons. Prior to 1994, we had a fragmented Department of Education. We had the House of Delegates, the House of Representatives, the Department of Education for whites, the Department of Education for blacks, and there was a proliferation of departments of education throughout the homelands. So we had more than 13 departments of education. And this year we can celebrate with great pride that, for the first time, we can offer every learner in our schools a National Curriculum Statement from Grade R to Grade 12 which is uniform, which focuses on quality and which can be understood by everybody.

I think it’s something that we have to celebrate. Thirteen years is not a long time, but as a nation we have applied our minds to the matter and, indeed, I believe that there are challenges - and I recognise that there are challenges. Here, this is not a question of posturing; it’s not a question of polemics; it’s not a question of emotional responses but a question of recognising the realities of where we come from; historic legacies that we spoke about and which the members who have contributed to the debate have reflected on.

How do you compare a well-resourced school, for example, that has a laboratory, a library and competent and confident teachers to a rural school that is overpopulated and lacks these resources? How do you, under these difficult conditions, succeed in providing quality education? I think we must recognise that these challenges were there previously and they certainly exist today, although we are seeking to overcome them. The importance of recognising these disparities would really inform the debate on a more enlightened basis rather than saying: Let us get everything right, and let us ensure that we have good educators before we start teaching. We can’t. We live in a globalised environment. The MEC - and I’d like to congratulate him on his appointment - has indicated how we utilise information and communication technology, for example, as a cross-curricular tool not only in high schools but also in primary schools. Do we wait for learners to read and write before we provide them with a computer; or, do we utilise the computer, the ICT and the technology that is available so that it is used as a cross-curricular tool to ensure that reading and numeracy are enhanced?

What we should understand, firstly, is what this National Curriculum Statement is all about. It is about outcomes-based education, yes, but it is also about ensuring that we provide our learners with a modern and relevant system of education. It is about ensuring that the system itself is cognitively more demanding. It is not about rote teaching. It is about innovation, it is about creativity, it is about ensuring that there is full development of the learner. And, as the chairperson Mr Tolo quite correctly indicated, the child, the learner, is at the centre of the application, and the teacher or the educator is indeed a facilitator.

The National Curriculum Statement is about ensuring that the knowledge that we pass on to the learner has relevance and can be applied in the context of South Africa, in the context of Africa and in the context of the globalised world. It’s important that we do so, because otherwise that education, which in the past was tantamount to regurgitation of information and knowledge, will have no relevance and will not be able to respond to the productive and economic demands of our country.

We must also recognise that at the centre of our National Curriculum Statement is an emphasis - and I know more than one member has referred to it and I’m not going to refer to the members in particular, but I thank them for their contributions, even those that were critical of what we are doing – on the importance of literacy and numeracy, the importance of ensuring that these occur at the foundation phase, because that is where the intensity of cognitive development occurs. And, if we pay less attention to early child development and the foundation phase, we are going to inherit a learner that is going to have difficulties in coping with the cognitive demands of a system of education that is more relevant and responsive.

Before I proceed, may I also thank the National Council of Provinces for being so innovative, for inviting the Ministry to address these issues - firstly, to listen to all the voices; secondly, to allow us to provide you with the information at hand as to where we are, and to recognise the challenges that we face together, because after all education is a task for all. It is not just the task of the Department of Education, or the Ministry of Education, or the MEC of education, but it is the task of everybody.

Thirdly, I thank you for the pains that have been taken to invite stakeholders - and I see Mr Brian Connor, one of the stakeholders who is always keen and concerned about the higher education field. His presence here really adds to the value of this particular debate. I’m sure he will be able to listen to the voices of the various representatives from various provinces and assist us in dealing with the challenges that we face.

I would like to reflect on what has been raised because I’ve been asked to respond to the issues that have been raised. Firstly, with regard to Afrikaans, a motion has been passed. There has never ever been any attempt by this government to diminish the value of Afrikaans. Show me one single incident in the past 13 years in which a teacher or an official said that Afrikaans cannot be taught in a school. There is parity of the 11 languages and that is clear, that is unequivocal, and that is the policy. I think that must be understood. To misrepresent the position of government or disregard the Department of Education, I believe, is about politicking. Those are not words that should be taken, as the President says, lightly.

We have to understand the context of the court case that has been alluded to. An application was made not by the Minister; an application was made by the school governing body to prevent the MEC of education in Mpumalanga from enrolling 113 learners in that particular school. The basis of the application was that this was a single-medium Afrikaans school and that they should not be allowed access to the school, notwithstanding the huge demands in terms of accommodation. Now, these 113 learners were excluded from going to school on the basis of language. We cannot quote the Constitution selectively. The Constitution says that you can have a single- medium school where it is reasonable and practicable. It is in the Constitution. Where you have a school that is half empty and you do not diminish the value of a language that is being taught, whether it is isiXhosa, Afrikaans or English, and practicality demands access to those learners, then the interests of the learners have to be looked at.

The Minister and a parent of one of the learners who was denied access were joined in the application on the issue of access, not on the issue of making a determination with regard to the language that should be taught there. I think that must be correctly understood and conveyed. So, I think it’s important that we clearly understand that particular issue.

Now, let me deal with the issues that have been raised. I am glad that the MEC for education has been here with regard to the failures in Grade 11. I think they require and deserve some clarity. This is not a problem that pertains only to the Eastern Cape, as the MEC correctly pointed out; rather it’s a universal problem. It’s a problem that occurs in different provinces.

The solutions will depend on the nature and scope of the problem in different areas. Our view, as a department, is that there are four choices – four choices that we do not impose but we offer to learners. The first is that you repeat the class, and if you repeat the class in the same school, it is the responsibility of the district officers and that school to ensure that additional support is provided to those learners in that particular area.

Innovative ways, such as those suggested by Mr Tolo, are in fact most welcome, such as where there is a cluster of schools and weekend classes are offered by teachers to ensure that, in terms of the subjects of life orientation and mathematical literacy, support is provided on a sustained basis to assist learners. We do believe that departments should have the latitude and the ability to have creative solutions to deal with this matter.

The second choice is that, if the learner so wishes, he or she may elect to do the old curriculum at an Abet institution. That means that the old curriculum offered at the school is not available, and if you wish to do the old curriculum you could do so at an alternative venue.

The third choice is to go to a Further Education and Training College. The FET colleges have been recapitalised and refurbished, and there are new programmes that are relevant and responsive to the economic needs of this country. Skills in terms of ICT, engineering, primary agriculture and tourism are provided – wonderful, relevant programmes. If the learner so elects, he or she may go to an FET college and enrol there to continue. The value of that would be that if you pass your Grade 4, you are entitled to go to a university of technology or a university on the basis of your pass. You would have a National Vocational Certificate.

The fourth choice is obviously to assume a learnership. What the Minister was very clear about, and I certainly support her fully, is that no learner must be pushed out of the system. If the learner elects to stay in school, he or she must be supported and it becomes the responsibility of the school and the district officials to ensure that the support is provided. If it is necessary, the national department will even assist.

Quite clearly, the national department had gone to the Eastern Cape, given the large numbers of people there. The director-general was there, and an engagement took place in relation to how to resolve this matter, and I think it’s important that we recognise that.

Now, Mr Tolo has spoken about disparities, quite correctly, and you are not the only person, Mr Tolo. To pretend that disparities do not exist and to argue from a platform as Mr Thetjeng from the DA sought to do, would be a gross distortion of the realities of this country, which should not be the case. [Interjections.]

You make a point, you want to give free advice, but when you are given advice you do not listen. That is not wrong, but it shows disrespect to the Minister and to this House to engage in conversation while advice is being given to you. The advice that we seek to give to you… [Interjections.] Will you listen, please? The advice that we seek to give to you is to say please acknowledge where you come from. Acknowledge that there are challenges that we face, that indeed there are overpopulated schools, indeed there are underresourced schools, but that government, having regard to these challenges, has set aside R10,5 billion to ensure that we better resource our schools, in terms of libraries, reading materials, laboratories and equipment.

It’s a challenge that we have to face together, but it’s a challenge that we cannot overcome in one day, one year or perhaps two or three; it’s a process. Indeed there are huge differences.

People were complaining about the Eastern Cape, saying that the performance was low. They were unhappy and, yet, with application, the Eastern Cape has produced much better results than it did previously.

Look at Mpumalanga – there are marked improvements in the results. There was political leadership, there was support by the officials, and this has indeed made a qualitative difference. It means that education became the task of all: the MEC, the officials, the principals and the communities were all involved in that particular process.

The second point that was made by Ms Lamoela… [Interjections.] You know, our Minister has emphasised on more than one occasion that you cannot talk about a National Curriculum Statement without emphasising the importance of literacy and numeracy. The integral elements of the foundation phase in schools relate to three areas: literacy, numeracy and life skills. We cannot pretend that these are not important, and therefore she has argued very strongly for that, and today we can say there are 5 300 foundation- phase schools that have more than 100 books in their classes. We have to link that, obviously, to what Mr Sulliman says.

If we want to promote mother-tongue learning, as we should do, particularly in the foundation phase, we have to ensure that the learner-support material is also in the language that is being taught. And we have urged the department and the higher education institutions to ensure that they provide us with the support so that this particular material is provided there.

You have also raised, quite correctly, the importance of mathematics. The challenge that we face is: Do we delay the introduction of mathematics? Do we want numerate learners, or do we say that when we are ready and have developed a cadre of educators who are competent and confident enough, that then only we will make it compulsory?

We are saying no. We must develop our educators, provide them with the skills, and ensure that we do so intensively and on a sustainable basis. But every learner must be numerate in either mathematics or mathematical literacy; there is no choice regarding this. This country can now celebrate the fact that, with effect from last year, every learner in Grade 10 has to do either mathematics or mathematical literacy; in fact, from Grade R to Grade 12 mathematics runs through the curriculum. I think this is something to be proud of because it is something that responds adequately and appropriately in terms of the life skills we seek to develop, which would make the knowledge relevant.

Regarding the issue of textbooks, I think we have to be candid about it - it’s a huge problem. We can say with a fair degree of pride that we have improved significantly in terms of the delivery of textbooks, yet we cannot pretend that every learner has a textbook in front of him. Resources are being allocated and yet we cannot say with all honesty, frankly, that each learner has a textbook before him or her.

We cannot depend on the success of the National Curriculum Statement, unless three things occur. Firstly, every learner should have a textbook relevant to the area of study before him or her. Secondly, every learner should have a competent, qualified and committed educator to teach him or her. Thirdly, every district should provide curriculum support.

Now, let’s look at these realities. With regard to learner-support materials, we have done well in certain provinces and less well in other provinces. Should we not argue that for each learning area there should be a dedicated textbook which should be distributed, either nationally or through an agency, to every school to ensure that every learner has a textbook in that relevant subject? This is something that we have to discuss. That discussion is indeed taking place. We are asking: What is the best way to ensure that distribution takes place more efficiently, and that there isn’t a proliferation of textbooks but rather a uniform approach to the National Curriculum Statement which can be augmented by schools, departments and districts?

So, it’s a matter that we have to discuss and we are going to look at very, very closely.

With regard to districts, we must recognise that there is unevenness about the way districts function. We have districts that have more than 200 schools, and others that have less than 20 schools within their jurisdiction. How do we deal with this matter? What are these tenders that we require? What kind of curriculum expertise do we require in every district? This is a matter that is receiving the Department of Education’s attention in that we are engaging with the provincial departments and it’s a matter in terms of which we certainly are going to introduce norms and standards, particularly with regard to the popular subjects – mathematics and science, life sciences, technology, languages.

Surely every district office should have a competent district official who is in a position, not as an administrator, but as a curricula implementer, to ensure that he or she could make interventions in schools that are not performing well. So, that is the intention with regard to that.

With regard to education - and I want the DA to listen - in 1994 less than 70% of our educators were either qualified or adequately qualified. In 13 years more than 85% of educators – about 350 000 teachers - have now become adequately qualified. It’s a huge, huge, huge stride that we have made. Yet, there are challenges, particularly in the fields of mathematics, science and languages.

What have we done? Firstly, with regard to educational development, we have set aside R4,5 billion, and negotiations are taking place for career pathing to take place where a competent teacher can receive additional remuneration by remaining in the classroom and can earn what a deputy principal or a principal earns on the basis of performance and ability. So, you don’t remove a competent teacher from the classroom. Secondly, we provide for teacher development on a sustainable basis so that you don’t go to a two-day workshop and say we have achieved our task. The National Curriculum Statement is a complex and difficult area, because it’s about applications, relevance and dealing with the new methodology in terms of education. Therefore, teacher development receives that particular benefit.

This year we are already offering bursaries for teachers in most institutions. There are 17 institutions of higher learning, and bursaries are being offered to teachers. So, we are increasing the profile of educators, particularly in the scarce-skills subjects. We have to do so. As public representatives, we can only appeal to you, when you go back to your communities, that you encourage them to join this noble profession.

I would not like to leave out anything that has been raised. I think the MEC has spoken about the issues that confront the Eastern Cape, and I do believe that we have to really apply ourselves, work extremely hard, and that the national department will continue to support the Eastern Cape.

What we can say about the Eastern Cape is that two years ago there was no stability in this area. Educators were not going to school, were not serious about education. Today we can say that there is stability. But we have to recognise that there are huge challenges, especially in areas such as Lusikisiki, with regard to district offices, resources and so on. Together, we have to work to ensure that we target those particular areas where interventions have to be made.

Planning is critical. The DA has raised that, and I agree. We have to recognise the importance and the reality of migration. Schools are becoming overcrowded, not simply because of growth in communities, but because of population growth - people moving from the rural areas to the urban areas. Schools that are in rural areas are becoming more and more depleted. This means that in terms of your planning, you have to recognise the issue of migration. How do you deal with additional infrastructure, the additional teacher provisioning that you require, and assimilate those learners so that they are not denied access but, at the same time, receive quality education? These are the challenges we are looking at in a very, very careful way. And I can say that each province is aware of the particular demands in that particular regard.

Mr Hendrickse may be impractical, but I think we welcome a critical look at contact time in education. We are saying: what are teachers doing in the classrooms? Are they teaching for the number of weeks that they ought to be teaching? Are they providing curriculum support? We have done three things which could help. I think in terms of uniformity, this is a message that you could take home, and it is an important message. We have a national policy on assessment and qualification for schools in general education. In other words, it applies in all provinces. We have the National Senior Certificate - a qualification for Level 4 in the NQF plan - and we have a national protocol for assessments from Grades R to 12 and guidelines on each learning area from Grades 1 to 12.

Educators cannot now say that they are confused, that what is happening in the Eastern Cape is not happening in Mpumalanga or Gauteng. We have a uniform guide, a uniform approach and a protocol for continual assessment. We’re going to ensure that they sharpen their skills in this particular area.

One of the difficulties has been that there was no systematic approach to continual assessment. How many tasks do you give to a learner that he or she must complete in any particular term? What do you do in terms of this plan for 40 weeks? For the learning area, how many tasks must be given for assessment – particularly the formal assessment? This has now been finalised.

May I conclude by saying that I think the conversation – the dialogue about education - must continue. It is at the heart of human resource development; it is at the heart of sustaining a successful democracy, and, if we wish to succeed at all, it means that each one of us, whether we are public representatives, members of communities, or members of governing bodies, must roll up our sleeves and say it is our responsibility. Thank you very for this opportunity. [Time expired.] [Applause.] Debate concluded.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): I would like to thank Deputy Minister Surty for his invaluable, informative input to the debate. We thank you, Deputy Minister, for your participation.

CONSIDERATION OF PROPOSAL IN TERMS OF COUNCIL RULE 182(2)(b) BY SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECURITY AND CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS TO INTRODUCE THE MANDATING PROCEDURES OF PROVINCES BILL

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson and hon members, allow me to express our appreciation at having our request met to introduce this important Bill before this august House. Let me start by giving members a brief background on this Bill and some of the constitutional imperatives that have been taken into account in the processing of this Bill.

The Constitution makes provision for various pieces of legislation that must be passed by Parliament to give effect to some of the constitutional provisions. Amongst them is section 65 of the Constitution. Section 65(1) provides:

(1) Except where the Constitution provides otherwise –

   (a)  each province has one vote, which is cast on behalf of the
       province by the head of its delegation; and


   (b)  all questions before the National Council of Provinces are
       agreed when at least five provinces vote in favour of the
       question.

(2) An Act of Parliament, enacted in accordance with this procedure established by either subsection (1) or subsection (2) of section 76, must provide for a uniform procedure in terms of which provincial legislatures confer authority on their delegations to cast votes on their behalf.

The Act provided for by section 65(2) of the Constitution has not yet been enacted and, as a result, there is no uniformity on how provincial legislatures confer authority on their delegation to cast votes on behalf of their provinces in this Council.

Let me remind hon members that item 21(1) of schedule 6 of the Constitution provides that where the new Constitution requires the enactment of national or provincial legislation, that legislation must be enacted by the relevant authority within a reasonable period from the date the new Constitution took effect.

We are now in the 11th year after the adoption of the Constitution and this legislation is not yet in place. The question is: Do 11 years constitute a reasonable amount of time? The answer, I suspect, all of us will give is no; it is our view that 11 years is too much time.

Item 21(5) of Schedule 6 to the Constitution provides that –

Until the Act of Parliament referred to in section 65(2) of the new Constitution is enacted each provincial legislature may determine its own procedure in terms of which authority is conferred on its delegation to cast votes on its behalf in the National Council of Provinces.

This has resulted in provinces conferring authority on their delegations in various ways. Members will recall that some mandates are signed by the chairpersons of committees; some are signed by the Speaker; and some are signed by members who will be chairing a meeting on that particular day. Currently, there is no uniformity in this process, which is irregular. The Bill seeks to provide a uniform procedure in terms of which provincial legislatures confer authority on their delegations to cast votes on their behalf in this Council.

We have started the process of ensuring that we fulfil these constitutional imperatives contained in section 65(2) of the Constitution and hence we have brought these requests for approval for this committee to introduce this Bill. In this Bill we have provided for the requirements a mandate must comply with to ensure that there is uniformity in this process.

Hon members, once this House approves our request, we will start with all the necessary processes of formally introducing the Bill in the Council. The Bill will follow all the necessary processes until formally classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism. Without pre-empting how the JTM will classify this Bill, it is our view that this Bill will be dealt with in terms of section 76(2) of the Constitution. Once the Bill is introduced in the Council, it will follow the normal processes, which will include briefing by the committee to all the legislatures.

Once the Bill is passed and becomes an Act, we will conduct a workshop for the implementation of the same Act. We anticipate that the costs for the implementation of this Bill may amount to not more than R120 000, which is meagre. In this workshop we will invite all provincial legislatures, Salga, as well as some stakeholders who might have an interest in participating in shaping this Bill in the best interests of this House.

On behalf of my dynamic, wonderful and eloquent select committee, I request that approval for the committee to introduce this Bill be given. I thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Order! I shall now put the question in respect of the Second Order. The question is that the proposal be agreed to. As this decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. Are all delegation heads present? Thank you.

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces an opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. Is there any province wishing to make any declaration of vote? There is obviously none.

We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour of or against, or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Eastern Cape siyayamukela. [Eastern Cape votes in favour.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Free State?

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN: Free State supports the proposal.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Gauteng? Ms N M MADLALA-MAGUBANE: Gauteng votes in favour.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI: KwaZulu-Natal elethu. [KwaZulu-Natal votes in favour.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Limpopo?

Mr O M THETJENG: Limpopo re dumelana le yona. [Limpopo votes in favour.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Mpumalanga?

Ms F NYANDA: Mpumalanga support supports the proposal.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Northern Cape?

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Noord-Kaap ondersteun. [The Northern Cape supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): North West?

Mr A J L MOSEKI: North West e dumalana le yona. [North West votes in favour.] The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Western Cape?

Mr N J MACK: Western Cape supports the proposal.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): All nine provinces voted in favour of the proposal. I therefore declare the proposal agreed to in terms of section 65 of the Constitution.

Proposal accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Business suspended at 11:39 and resumed at 14:01.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, some of you are looking at me as if you want to pray again. [Laughter.] This is a continuation of this morning’s sitting. We had a sitting this morning and we prayed then.

I wish to welcome all the Ministers present here for the questions. Thank you very much for making yourselves available for today’s sitting. I wish to thank you very much.

We shall now proceed with the questions as printed on the Order Paper. I just want to remind the members once more that the time provided for reply to a question is five minutes, that the time provided for asking supplementary question is two minutes, that the time provided for reply to supplementary questions is four minutes, and that only four supplementary questions are allowed per question - if we could just remember those Rules.

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY

                         PEACE AND SECURITY
                              Cluster 1

MINISTERS:

         Expansion of Kabokweni police station in Mpumalanga

1. Ms F Nyanda asked the Minister of Safety and Security:

   Whether he will consider expanding the Kabokweni police station in Mpumalanga and increasing the number of police officers; if not, why not; if so, when? C1E

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, good afternoon to all the members of this House. The Kabokweni police station is a facility that we are paying attention to. We want not just to improve the services that are available at the community safety centre there, but also to do some renovations and expand the facility so that it can offer certain services. For instance, we are going to expand it so that it has a facility which will be victim friendly. In other words, we will do everything that will ensure that every person who comes as a victim is accommodated there.

Part of that is the improvement of the facilities to accommodate people with disabilities but, as regards the personnel that we have there as well, we are also going to renovate facilities that are available for the accommodation of the members. In other words, there’ll be married quarters as well as single quarters.

On the overall question of how we manage the human capital resources that we have, that issue is part and parcel of the changes that we are effecting. Since 1 August 2006 we have been diverting personnel away from the national office and provincial office, where necessary, and from an area that we have since phased out, and we are shifting those resources to the police stations where crime fighting actually happens. Therefore, the personnel that will go to Kabokweni are the personnel that will be quite experienced compared to some of the people who are already there; quite experienced and highly skilled people to take over issues that relate, among other things, to the management of those human resources that are available there. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

Nk F NYANDA: Njengoba esephendulile uNgqongqoshe ngiyabonga kakhulu ngoba uthe bazovuselela kabusha. Benginenkinga ngoba uma ngingena kulesiya siteshi samaphoyisa, bahambe nami sizungeza, kwatholakala ukuthi ayikho indawo yokubeka izicwadi zokuphenya ezisemqoka. Lokhu sekwenze baze basebenzisa amakhathoni ukuze bakwazi ukubeka izincwadi zokwenza uphenyo. Incane kakhulu indawo. Ngiyabonga Ngqongqoshe ukuthi umsebenzi wokuvuselela isakhiwo usendleleni. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Ms F NYANDA: As the Minister has responded, I thank him very much because he says they are going to renovate and expand the police station. I always had a problem whenever I visited that police station, because when I was shown around I could see that there was no place for the safekeeping of dockets. This has forced them to use the cupboards to keep the dockets safe. There is not enough space. I thank you, Minister, for saying that renovation work at the facility will start soon.]

UMPHATHISWA WEZOKHUSELO NOKHUSELEKO: Siyabulela kakhulu ngegalelo lakho. Enye into endingathanda ukuyikhankanya kukuba ngoku sinendlela yokujonga isikhululo ngesikhululo … (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: We express our sincere gratitude for your contribution. One other point that I would like to make is that we now have a new approach of looking at each station …]

…using what we have defined as a management and performance tool. What we do, which we showed to the portfolio committee members yesterday, would have been good if …

It is a computerised system. Once we do that, we can look at any question relating to that police station. Among other things, we would know, for instance, what resources have been allocated to this particular station in terms of human as well as material resources. What we can also determine by simply looking at the computer screen is whether the human resources who are supposed to be there at that time are all there. If they are not all there, we would know the reasons why the entire complement of people isn’t there.

We are therefore doing the same thing with the stations, and that instrument has told us where we need to make interventions - we picked up Kabokweni in that way. We are going to attend to that police station.

Mr M A MZIZI: Chairperson, arising from the Minister’s response, I know that the Minister has been very vocal on the trained personnel they are going to put in place in various police stations, which we also welcome. How far are we with that plan, because it is something that is needed as of yesterday? It is not the first time you say this. When can we see this project up and running? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chair, we started implementing this on 1 August 2006, so it is still early days when it comes to determining the extent to which it has been effected. But it already shows that it is better to bring resources down to station level, because those people at that level are at the coalface of the fight against crime and therefore, already, there is an impact.

There are a number of stations, and I could mention a few, where you can already see that there is a difference. I don’t know how many people come from Sebokeng. If you come from there you would realise that there have been changes. Crime is going down simply because we have put in place a good manager at that station on the basis of this management of our human resources. Not only that, but that person has been able to mobilise the community behind policing there, which is a consequence of the changes we are making.

Anybody who comes from Gugulethu here will also have a similar experience. In Nyanga we’ve put in a person who understands what needs to be done. I could indicate more stations where this is already happening, but as I say it is early days. Perhaps we’ll not feel, right away, the impact of this, but we are going to sit down and do an assessment at the appropriate time. We believe it is going to help us tremendously in the fight against crime. Thank you.

Mnu Z C NTULI: Sihlalo, ngibonge kuNgqongqoshe ngezimpendulo azinikezile. Bengifuna nje ukuthi ngesikhathi okhomishana bamaphoyisa sebebuyiselwa eziteshini, ngabe sizobona ukwanda kweziteshi ezingomahamba nendlwana ezisuka eziteshini zokhomishana? (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Mr Z C NTULI: Chairperson, I thank the Minister for the responses he provided. I want to ask whether, when police commissioners are deployed in different police stations, we are going to see an increase in satellite police stations from stations in which these commissioners are deployed.]

UMPHATHISWA WEZOKHUSELO NOKHUSELEKO: Mhlalingaphambili, asifuni ukuzisa oomahamba-nendlwana. Sifuna ukwakha izikhululo zamapolisa. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, we don’t want to bring in mobile police stations. Instead, we want to build police stations.]

Ngesikhathi singakabi nazo iziteshi zamaphoyisa ezanele, sizoba nabo omahamba nendlwana, kodwa lapho siyakhona sifuna ukuba neziteshi zamaphoyisa … [While we don’t have adequate police stations, we are going to have satellite police stations, but our objective is to have police stations …]

… so that all the areas that need to be covered by police precincts will indeed have those precincts in order for us, therefore, to provide the necessary wherewithal for our people to benefit from our national security strategy. As you are aware, there are more members of the SA Police Service that we are engaging.

On an annual basis, we recruit anything between 8 000 and 10 000 new members into the Service. Many of you will recall that when I took up this position in 2002, we had just over 118 000 members, but by the end of 2009, we’ll have more than 190 000 members. The stations are also going to grow concomitantly so that we will be able to cover the country as well, as it is necessary for us to do that. Thank you.

           Integration of former inmates into communities

1. Mr N J Mack asked the Minister of Correctional Services:

   Whether the integration strategy in respect of former inmates into their communities is effective; if not, (a) what is the position in this regard and (b) what can be done to improve it; if so, what are the relevant details? C2E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you very much, Chairperson. I must also say that it feels good to be at home. Chairperson, if I exhaust my response time I will table this document in the House, so that the hon member who asked the question will have further details. The reply to the hon Mack’s question is the following. The reintegration of inmates into communities is conducted through our new programme called Social Reintegration. The programme seeks to follow through on our rehabilitation work inside correctional facilities. In almost all cases, paroled offenders have been subjected to programmes that help them to deal with drug abuse, management of anger, life skills, empowering education and vocational training programmes.

Last year the Department of Correctional Services launched what we called a “Corrections Week” for the first time in the history of Correctional Services. During Corrections Week we reached out as a department to various organisations, families, communities, the nongovernmental organisations, etc, to assist us with the task of rehabilitation and social reintegration.

As the hon member will recall, the White Paper on Corrections places the issue of rehabilitation and social reintegration at the centre of our work. But the hon member would also know that this matter cannot be the responsibility of the Department of Correctional Services alone. We will do it in collaboration with everybody out there, including the families of our offenders.

We have also launched Operation Masibambisane, which means: let us all join hands, in terms of executing the mandate of Correctional Services.

Mr N J MACK: Thank you, Chairperson, and thank you, hon Deputy Minister. This matter is a big challenge for these inmates when they leave the correctional centres, especially in getting employment. They interact with businesses and other sectors. In extreme cases these inmates are even rejected by their families. What is there in place to deal with this matter?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you, Chairperson. We do recognise that there is a huge problem, because during the time that we do our departmental izimbizo throughout the year, one of the pertinent questions that I always raise is the issue of employment when they are released. This is the reason why we do skills training at Correctional Services, as I have already mentioned in my first reply.

There is small budget that is made available to assist those ex-inmates and ex-offenders. Of course, there are ex-offenders and ex-inmates who are no longer with us and who want to pursue their own businesses. We do put them in touch with other funding organisations that can assist them.

We also have had a number of meetings with Business Against Crime. We have actually looked at targeting businesses in various communities where they come from as well as big businesses to give offenders a second chance. Hence, we have discovered that if they go out there and there is no employment for them, they fall back into the cycle of crime, and we get them back as repeaters of crime. And we do not want that.

There are a number of initiatives that we have embarked on, and we also appeal to communities and organisations out there to really give our ex- offenders a second chance, at least at employment, so that they can fend for themselves.

Nks F NYANDA: Ngiyabonga, Sihlalo. Mine bengicela kutsi njengobe baphuma emajele baye ngaphandle, bekungeke yini kwentiwe taba tekutsi nabaphuma befike lapha ngaphandle sibemukele… [Kuhlaba lulwimi.] (Translation of Siswati paragraph follows.)

[Ms F NYANDA: Thank you, Chairperson. I was requesting that since the offenders are released from prison into the communities, can’t we make some arrangement that when they come out of prisons, they are welcomed … [Interjections.]]

An HON MEMBER: There is no interpretation service.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Could we have interpretation please!

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: I have already volunteered, but she can’t hear me. [Laughter.]

Nks F NYANDA: … tekutsi nabaphuma emajele sibemukele tsine njengemiphakatsi, bese setama kutsi sibanike imisetjentana lekhona lapha ngaphandle sentele kutsi sibabone kutsi njengobe sebaphumile ejele batimesele kangakanani kugucuka, nekutsi babone kutsi sibemukela kangakanani. Kuhle babe nemisebenti lemincane labayentako njengasetiteshini temaphoyisa, nasetingadzeni kuze basebente sibone kutsi labantfu bemukeleke sibili.

Ngikusho loku ngobe intfo lengiyibonako leyenta labantfu kutsi bangemukeleki kutsi befika lapha emakhaya bangenti lutfo. Bavuka ekuseni bahlale ngobe kute labangakwenta ibe kantsi sisu silambile, indlala ibhokile, umuntfu abone kuncono kutsi abuyele emuva ayewuganga kantsi nangabe kukhona lokuncane lakutfolako lokugcwalisa sisu, angeke abuyele lapho aphuma khona. Ngiyabonga, Sihlalo. (Translation of Siswati paragraph follows.)

[Ms F NYANDA: … that when they are released from prisons we welcome them as communities, and try to provide them with menial tasks available so that we can see how far are they are prepared to reform, and to help them see how much we accept them. It will be good if they are given menial tasks like working in the gardens of the police stations, so that we can see and accept them fully.

I am saying this because I think that these ex-offenders are not accepted because when they are released into their communities, they have nothing to do. They wake up early in the morning and do nothing while they are starving. That persuades a person to go back to his or her wrongdoings, whereas if he gets something that will fill his tummy, he will not repeat the offence. Thank you, Chairperson.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you, Chairperson. In my response to the follow-up question I mentioned that with the campaign we launched last year in Corrections Week, we were trying to do exactly what the hon member was trying to say we should do, that is reaching out to communities, organisations and everybody out there working with ex- offenders and welcoming them back.

Shortly after my appointment last year, one of my first public engagements was in the Eastern Cape, where the community took it upon themselves to welcome back three ex-offenders from that particular community to make them feel that they were welcome. They have served their time, they are back in the community and it is that kind of initiative that we really want everybody, including members of this House, to take out there and to talk to communities about.

I agree with the hon member that if ex-offenders do not find employment, they cannot fend for themselves, that their families would not want them and that they go back to the cycle of crime, and this becomes a whole vicious cycle. Therefore, as the White Paper says, everybody has a responsibility of reintegrating ex-offenders into their communities and their families.

Mr D A WORTH: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Deputy Minister, regarding the inmates who have been released on parole, can you give any indication to this House of the percentage that have repeated offences or returned to prison? Is it 30% or 40%? How successful has this been for those on parole?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you, Chairperson. I think there was a similar question that I am supposed to be responding to as well, in terms of reoffending and so on.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): You can respond when you come to it. You are not forced to respond now.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Z C NTULI: Thank you, hon Deputy Minister, for the response. This is a follow-up question to the one by the hon Ms F Nyanda. I would like the Deputy Minister to say something about the forms. You find that when you apply for the forms, even the government forms as well, you are asked whether you have been arrested before. This shows that they are going to react if you have been arrested before. We must be reminded that after you have served your sentence, you are meant to have been corrected, but this shows that the stigma follows you around. Even when we elect a community policing forum - CPF - they will say that a person who has been arrested before cannot serve on it. Can’t we amend legislation to do away with this, so that what we are saying is correct?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you, Chairperson. I am glad that my colleagues from the justice, crime prevention and security cluster are here. One of the things that we are also looking at is the reform of the criminal justice system. I think it will, hopefully, address the point that the hon member made.

As we go around, that is one of the things that members of the community and ex-offenders themselves keep throwing in our faces. Whenever they divulge that they have a criminal record, they are shown the door. If they do not divulge this and there is an investigation, they will be chased away immediately after it is found out that the person has a criminal record, irrespective of the crime committed, whether it is a petty crime, serious or whatever. I think this is something that we at as government need to look as a whole and not just as Correctional Services.

 Conviction rate per province, and mechanism for improvement thereof

1. Kgoshi M L Mokoena asked the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:

   (1) What is the conviction rate per province;

   (2) whether there is any mechanism in place for improving the conviction rate; if not, why not; if so, how effective has this mechanism proved to be? C3E

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Thank you for the question, hon member. The National Prosecuting Authority does not keep statistics per province but per High Court division. There are nine divisions and each division has an office of the National Director of Public Prosecutions. To really go to the heart of the question, I think I should indicate here the divisions and the conviction rate. Before I do so, I will first explain the process.

I just want to mention that there is a lot of monitoring going on, for example the lower courts are monitored daily by one or more senior public prosecutors assisted by one or more controller prosecutors, who in turn report to the chief prosecutors for the particular cluster at the end of every month. At the national office these statistics that come from the various divisions are then analysed and we can get a picture of the conviction rates.

This shows how far we are from transforming the court system in the country. The Bophuthatswana Provincial Division, as of April to November 2006, was at 89%. The district and the regional courts in the area were at 78% and the High Courts were at 89%.

On average, therefore, we are talking here about approximately 80% for the district courts and 70% for the regional courts, with the High Courts at around 76%, I think. I am referring here to the following provinces: the Cape of Good Hope Provincial Division, the Eastern Cape Provincial Division, the Free State Provincial Division, the Northern Cape Provincial Division, the Natal Provincial Division, the Transvaal Provincial Division, the Transkei Provincial Division and the Witwatersrand Provincial Division. [Laughter.] I get the message, hon members, and I will work very fast to change those names in terms of transforming the system.

There is always a need to improve on what we have, and I should say that we have an ongoing assessment of convictions because this relates very strongly to the case backlogs at the courts. I thank you.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Thank you, Chairperson. Arising from the Minister’s eloquent response, I want to ask whether the good record that she has given this House wouldn’t be even more enticing if we didn’t have so many reserved judgments in these divisions.

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Yes, it is a challenge. Let me just say, hon member, that I think matters of this kind will be dealt with thoroughly through the review of the criminal justice system. Let me say that that’s when we shall have proper indicators of the extent of the problem and get even closer to finding solutions to the problem.

Let me say that all key stakeholders are concerned about the quality of service given to the populace in general, in other words the whole question of access to justice. It is a challenge because when you talk about reserved judgments, you are actually talking about an impediment to justice and also of the impact of truly promoting justice amongst our people and providing them with a quality service.

I must say that stakeholders are concerned, and it’s a matter that prosecutors are seized with. I am in engagement with the judges and this is a matter we discuss with the heads of courts. It is a matter that we will be discussing soon at a meeting that is coming up between ourselves and the magistrates. It is a problem.

Mr B J TOLO: Thank you, Chair. I was listening very carefully to the Minister talking about the different divisions, but when she talked about these divisions I didn’t hear anything about the Mpumalanga division. I come from that province, and I do know that 10 years ago we had a legislature committee that was moving around the province trying to check as to where a provincial seat could be established in terms of the High Court. A decision was taken but it seems that there is nothing happening in that regard.

I do know that in some cases people from Mpumalanga have to travel long distances in order to be able to litigate. This is a very serious problem. I just want to ask the Minister if there is anything in the pipeline to establish a Mpumalanga division and de-establish the Bophuthatswana one. I thank you. The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, as that question doesn’t relate to the question on the Order Paper you are not forced to respond, although you can if you want.

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, it may actually be related because I have been talking about the Bophuthatswana division. Let me answer by saying that we are concerned, and I have taken the decision - notwithstanding the fact that we haven’t passed the Superior Courts Bill - to go ahead and build the courts in designated areas that have been identified. So, I will be turning the soil in Limpopo. The problem we have with Mpumalanga is that the piece of land that was granted to us is no longer available. This was before my tenure, but we are in discussions with authorities in those provinces to find some land to build the courts on.

Mr D A WORTH: Thank you, Chair. I would just like to redirect the same question that was asked originally of the hon Minister. Do you have any figures for the total number of people who were released on parole but have reoffended?

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: No, I don’t have any such information.

Mnu S SHICEKA: Sihlalo, Ngqongqoshe, bengithanda ukwazi ukuthi ingabe luzoqedwa nini udaba lokubuyekezwa kabusha kwemingcele ekhona ezweni lakithi ukuze ifane nemingcele yomasipala? Ngiyethemba ukuthi lokhu kuzokwenza kuqedwe lawa magama afana noBophuthatswana noTranskei ngoba sizobe sesikhuluma ulimi olusha.

Okwesibili, Ngqongqoshe, engifuna ukukwazi ukuthi ngabe kukhona yini imicabango noma ukuhlela kokuthi lezi zinkantolo zikwazi ukusebenza ngokubhekela ukufinyelela esibalweni esithile emsebenzini wazo ukuze sithole ukuthi ziyakwazi yini ukukala ukuthi zisebenza ngendlela enjani ekuletheni ezobulungiswa emphakathini, sithole nohlelo lobungako besibalo sabatholwa benecala? Uma uya ezinkantolo laphaya ufica ukuthi amacala ahlale ehlehliswa, njengoba sibona kwenzeka namuhla. Ngiyabonga.

UNGQONQGOSHE WEZOBULUNGISWA NOKUTHUTHUKISWA KOMTHETHOSISEKELO: Sihlalo, ngiyafisa kakhulu ukuthi ilungu elihloniphekile, uShiceka, ngiliphendule ngesiZulu. Yize ngihluleka kodwa ngizozama. Engifuna ukukusho ukuthi siyayibuyekeza imingcele, njengoba eshilo. Siyazama ukuthi sibe nohlelo ukuze silusebenzise lolo hlelo. Kulo nyaka we-2007 lokho kuyingxenye yohlelo lwethu lokwenza izinto.

Njengoba ilungu lazi, njengalokho kwenza i-SAPS nathi sifaka uhlelo lwamakhompiyutha olubizwa nge e-Scheduler. Sesilufake saqeda ezinkantolo ezinga-220 futhi nginethemba lokuthi uSeptemba uzofika sesilufake kuzo zonke izinkantolo.

Sizibophezele ngempela ekuqeqesheni abantu abazoqoqa ulwazi besebenzisa le e-Scheduler. Lolu hlelo lwe e-Scheduler luyabonisa ukuthi kwenzekani ezinkantolo. Umuntu uyakwazi ukubona ukuthi ngabe inkantolo engu-A noma inkantolo engu-C iwenza kahle umsebenzi wayo noma kunezinkinga ezikhona.

Thina sesiqala ukusebenza ngezindlela zesimanje lapha ohlangothini lwe- Justice, Peace and Security Cluster. Siyethemba ukuthi uma selusebenza ngokugcwele lolu hlelo lwe e-Scheduler, labo abasebenzelana ne-JPS Cluster, ikakhulukazi izinhlangano ezingekho ngaphansi kukahulumeni, izinhlangano zomphakathi kanye namalungu ePhalamende bazokwazi ukuhlale behlola izinto ezenzekayo ezinjengokuhlehla kwamacala.

Amacala ahlehliswa ngoba ngezinye izikhathi abameli beza enkantolo bengazilungiselele kanti ngakolunye uhlangothi kuba abashushisi noma kube yizo izimantshi ezisuke zingazilungiselele. Ngakho-ke uma sesine e- Scheduler, thina sonke esithanda ukuhlola isimo sizokwazi ukuqapha bonke laba abathintekayo. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Mr S SHICEKA: Thank you Chairperson. Minister, I would like to know when the issue of redetermining of boundaries in our country, to be like municipal boundaries, is going to be finalised. This, I hope, will help in doing away with names like Bophuthatswana and Transkei, because by then we would be speaking a new language.

Another thing, Minister, that I want to know, is whether there are any plans in place for these higher courts to reach a certain number of cases so that we can know whether they are able to measure their performance as regards bringing justice to the community? Do they have plans in place for making available the statistics about those who are found guilty? If you go to courts, for instance, you find that cases are always postponed, as we are witnessing it happening today. Thank you.

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, how I wish I could respond to the hon member Shiceka in isiZulu. Even though I may not be able to do that, I am going to try. What I want to say is that we are redetermining the boundaries, as he said. We are trying to establish such a programme so that we can use it. And it forms part of our programme of action for this year, 2007. As the hon member is aware, like the SAPS, we are also rolling out a computer project called Scheduler. We have completed 220 courts and I am sure that by September, we will have rolled it out at all our courts.

We are really committed to training people who are going to collect information using this Scheduler. This Scheduler program shows what is happening at the courts. A person is able see if court A or C is doing its job properly or if problems are being encountered.

We are starting to work in modern ways here in the justice, peace and security cluster. We hope that, when this Scheduler program is fully operational, those who are working with the JPS cluster, particularly the NGOs and Members of Parliament, will have access to things that are happening such as case proceedings.

Cases are postponed because sometimes lawyers, prosecutors or even magistrates come to court unprepared. And when we have the Scheduler program in place, all of us who like to assess the situation will be able to monitor everyone involved.]

            Escapes from prison, and rearrest of escapees

1. Mr N J Mack asked the Minister of Correctional Services:

   (a) What plans have been put in place to deal with escapes from prisons and (b) how many of those who escaped have been rearrested in the 2005-06 financial year? C4E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, the prevention of escapes is one of the priorities of the Department of Correctional Services. Any escape from our facilities is one escape too many. Hon members will remember that just this December we launched Operation Vala, not only to prevent escapes, but to improve the management of our security operations during the festive season. May I add that, much to the irritation of our inmates, the operation was a resounding success across the country.

The following strategies and actions aimed at enhancing security in correctional facilities have been introduced and implemented. Firstly, there is the development of national and regional escape-prevention strategies which, inter alia, focus on special security measures during the admission of inmates, and increased access control measures to prevent unauthorised articles from entering our correctional centres.

Secondly, a strong emphasis is also placed on the proper identification and searching of all persons entering and/or leaving correctional centres. A security plan focusing on the protection of officials, offenders, service providers and awaiting-trial detainees was developed and implemented in all our correctional facilities. Thirdly, there is increased control and supervision of offenders in units, and especially in single cells during the day and night, which includes regular visits by security officials to ensure that guarding officials are vigilant at all times.

Fourthly, there is also increased searching of cells and living units, which includes regular surprise searches at irregular times. Fifthly, there is an enhancement of access control to correctional centres through the installation of modern access control equipment and security fences, backed by CCTV cameras and movement detection systems.

The fence is connected to the closed-circuit television camera control room, and signals are sent to the control room for rapid response. These and the CCTV camera project above will be rolled out to other centres countrywide during the forthcoming years.

The departmental management information system does not reflect statistics on rearrests, and therefore the information needed is not readily available. That should also respond to the question from the hon member at the back there - that our system cannot pick that up. This is one of the shortcomings that we have actually identified - that we cannot pick up repeat offenders or rearrests because they have been captured in our system as awaiting-trial detainees. Thank you. Mr N J MACK: Thank you, Chairperson and Deputy Minister. When you deal with escapes, what has come more to the fore is the issue of assistance, and the concern is that it is the assistance of our own correctional officials. Is there anything in place to deal with our correctional officials who assist in escapes?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, I think the hon member was at the briefing this morning when we dealt with Annanias Mathe’s escape. [Laughter.] The response given by the Minister there was that we really do deal very harshly with people when it comes to our attention that an official or staff member has assisted an inmate or offender to escape. Disciplinary action should follow, as per our procedure. So, I think the Minister has already answered this question this morning in the joint meeting of the portfolio and select committees. Thank you.

Nks F NYANDA: Ngiyabonga, Sihlalo. Ngitsandza kubuta lapha kuSekela leNdvuna kutsi lapha kumabonakudze lekutsiwa yi-Special Assignment, kubonakala liphoyisa libambe siboshwa bagijima baya emnyango liphoyisa liyekele siboshwa sihambe lona lisale ngemuva kutsi kugcina kwenteke njani ngalabo bantfu labo, bobabili? (Translation of Siswati paragraph follows.)

[Ms F NYANDA: Thank you, Chairperson. I would like to ask a question. Deputy Chairperson, in the TV programme called Special Assignment a police officer is seen holding an offender running towards the door, and somehow the police officer lets the offender run faster with the officer concerned remaining behind. What eventually happens to those people - to both of them?]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, unfortunately I did not watch the Special Assignment episode, but I assume that it was an awaiting-trial detainee and about the security of awaiting-trial detainees

• that it was unfortunately not in our good cells but in an SA Police Service cell. We do not secure awaiting-trial detainees, but I am sure that if the question could be put to the hon Minister of Safety and Security at a later stage, it would be answered. I would assume that - especially when they go to court - they are escorted by the SA Police Service and not by Correctional Services.

Mr J W LE ROUX: Chairperson, Mr Mack actually asked exactly the question that I wanted to ask the Deputy Minister, but I’ll just expand a bit on that, and ask her: Does she have any idea of the number of cases in which escapees were actually assisted by our own personnel - just as a rough estimation perhaps?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: I think, Chairperson, it would be unfair to ask that kind of question here and now, because normally what happens is that when there is an escape, the Minister institutes an investigation around the escape, as has been the case with Mr Mathe. If it is found that any official or staff member assisted that particular inmate or awaiting-trial detainee in his or her escape, the necessary steps will be taken against that particular person.

But I cannot answer that offhand now. Maybe I could investigate further, and if we do have a figure of more or less how many of our staff members were involved in such escapes, we will forward that information to the member. I cannot, off the top of my head, estimate if there were any of our members involved at all in any of our previous escapes. Thank you.

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, could I just ask this: Is it possible to answer Mr Mack’s question for the benefit of those of us who did not attend this morning’s briefing, because I do not think it is fair to the rest of us to just say that he attended the briefing so he should not ask the question. There are a lot of us sitting here who would also like to hear that answer, please.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, I have responded to Mr Mack … I am not going to respond any further.

             Use by SANDF of land claimed by communities

1. Mr A J L Moseki asked the Minister of Defence:

   Whether the SA National Defence Force is still using land that is claimed by some communities; if so, (a) what are the relevant details and (b) when does his department intend releasing such land to those communities? C5E

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Thank you, Chairperson. The SA National Defence Force has attended to all the land claims that it was faced with, except for three in terms of which we continue to partially occupy land. But in all three cases the department has negotiated agreements and settlements.

The first of those cases is that of Wallmannsthal in Pretoria, where the Department of Defence and the claimants have agreed on the land to be restored to the community. This has been communicated to the Land Claims Commission. It’s a transborder land area, so both the Gauteng and North West Land Claims Commissions are dealing with that. The said Land Claims Commissions are in the process of finalising all administrative processes in order to transfer the land to the claimants. Although these administrative processes are not handled by the department itself, we are assured that transfer will take place within a short period of time, thereby finalising that matter.

The second area is in St Lucia, and is known as “Hell’s Gate Training Area”. The Department of Defence has approved the land that can be restored to the claimants. Indications are that the members of the claimant community will not move back to the land, but that the land will become part of the Greater St Lucia Wetland Park.

The Department of Defence is ready to restore the land to the claimant community, but it can only be for restricted use owing to the presence of unexploded ordnances, because on land where a lot of weapons have been exploded, with chemicals in the soil, there are some chemicals that may affect the lives of human beings, especially children. So this can only be for restricted use.

The Department of Defence is currently in the process of doing the necessary planning to clear the land of these unexploded ordnances. Indications are that unexploded ordnances will be cleared by no later than the end of the 2007-08 financial year.

Finally, in the Madimbo Corridor near Musina the department has approved the land that is to be restored to the claimants. It was agreed that the Department of Defence could lease back part of the land in order to continue with the necessary training in the area. It is a very strategic border area. The Land Claims Commission in the Limpopo province is in the process of finalising outstanding issues such as surveying of the land, compiling a lease agreement between the state and the claimant community, and transferring the land into the name of the claimants. The department is ready to restore the land to the claimant community but, again, with restricted use due to these unexploded ordnances. A process is in place to do the necessary planning to clear the land of these unexploded ordnances. Indications are that unexploded ordnances will be cleared by no later than the end of the next financial year. Thank you very much.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Thank you, Minister. Is there anyone with a follow-up question to the reply given by the Minister?

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Thank you, Chairperson. Arising from the reply by my ever-ready Minister, I want to ask this follow-up question: In the case of land that is so useful to the department, has the department considered negotiating with the relevant claimants to compensate said claimants so as to be able to continue using the land effectively?

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Madam Chair, it is indeed correct that now and then claims emerge from communities in respect of land which, in the view of the SANDF, we are unable to part with. In such cases, we offer communities, first and foremost, compensation which in our assessment would be equal to both the loss the community would have suffered in the years since it was alienated from its land, and which would also cover their ability to acquire new land of more or less equal fertility and suitability. This is because you can give people money, but then they have to look for land that would yield fertility of a similar kind and that can become extremely difficult. There have been a number of occasions on which we have offered communities sizable compensation, but then they have said, “Well, if you help us find land that is as fertile as this, we will accept it, but if you can’t it is useless, and we cannot.”

That explains why in the case of the Madimbo Corridor we have had to say to the community, with regard to land that has not been affected by ordnances and explosives and that is free of chemicals, that they please take that land because they can still use it; and, with regard to land that we are using which is affected by ordnances, can we have an agreement that we lease the land from you, that on an annual basis we pay you rental for the lease that would be more or less equal to that which you would have received had it not been affected by ordnances.

In this way, we would arrive at some kind of arrangement that would give the community more or less the same income from that land had it not been taken by us. But this also then gives us an opportunity to continue using the land for the purpose for which we were using it when it was alienated from the communities.

It’s a very tricky and difficult situation, but most communities are very sympathetic. Of course there is an extreme case, where national interests clash head-on with the interests of a particular community. Then, of course, national interests must prevail, and we just give you what we want to give you and that is it. Thank you. [Laughter.]

       Reimbursement to government after deployment of troops

1. Mr A T Manyosi asked the Minister of Defence:

   What percentage is paid back to the Government after troops had been deployed to countries on the African continent? C6E

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Madam Chair, first of all let me just say, as a preliminary comment, that reimbursement in the deployment of the troops depends on what body the multilateral organisation that we are working with falls under. If it is the United Nations, there’s a particular regimen; if it is the African Union, the circumstances will be something else; if it is an organisation in another region of the world, that also would be affected. But, generally, the United Nations’ standards are those that are maintained.

So, reimbursement to government is governed by certain conditions. Firstly, the contingent owns equipment that is manual. The contingent’s own manual equipment is used to provide the basis of calculation and the terms for reimbursement. The reimbursement is based on actual personnel strength and on the serviceability of the equipment that was used. Secondly, the memorandum of understanding between the Department of Defence and the authority that mandates the operation must regulate the memorandum of understanding which is signed between the country that is deploying troops and the multilateral organisation’s reimbursements - for instance the United Nations in the case of the DRC, or the African Union in the case of Burundi at the beginning. All conditions of reimbursement are recorded in the memorandum of understanding. If these conditions are not met, the full reimbursement is not received.

Thirdly, invariably most reimbursements are not received in the financial year in which the expenditure has occurred. It is therefore difficult to determine the exact percentages paid back to the government.

Finally, the following data will depict expenditure incurred and corresponding reimbursements received for various financial years. This is not going to be very helpful, but I just share it with the members for what it is worth.

In the financial year of 2003-04, we spent R800 million on deployment and we were repaid R84 million. In the following year - 2004-05 - we spent R701,663 million and we were reimbursed to the tune of R436 million. This means that in that year we got back 62,1%, whereas in the previous year it was only 10,5%. In the year 2005-06, we spent R780,723 million on peace operations, and were reimbursed R445 million, which means that 57% of it was repaid. In the 2006-07, we spent R851,44 million and were reimbursed R96,914 million, which means that in that year 11,4% came back.

A very brief additional explanation is simply that where United Nations missions are deployed because of the numbers of nations in the UN and because of the resources they command, the UN is able to pay most of what it has to pay back.

In the case of the African Union, where vast numbers of the nations of our continent are so poor, if the operations are under the AU -even as we negotiate the memorandum of understanding - we accept the high risk that we are unlikely to recover the resources in those operations. Indeed, we volunteer some of the resources.

This past weekend we had elections in Lesotho, and we couldn’t expect them to pay us back. We made a contribution of aircraft to support the elections. We had to do this as a contribution by South Africa in order to deepen and strengthen democracy in that country. So, those situations explain why we sometimes spend more and sometimes less.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I have a follow-up question to the Minister. Besides the monetary value, which is attached, I’m of the view that we are not only doing this as good Samaritans but we are investing in the prosperity of Africa as a continent. Does the Minister foresee this as something that is going to have some good effects on the continent and also on South Africa as a country, because at times we also complain about the illegal immigrants who flee from those countries?

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: That is a very important question for a country like South Africa, from where large numbers of people from our country ran away at the height of struggle and where the international community opened its arms to our citizens – their educational institutions, medical institutions, especially military training where the freedom fighters of this country trained and all of that.

We received huge international support, and in our view this is the time for us to reciprocate in a humble way, as a gesture to the international community to say thank you.

In terms of the vast majority of countries on our continent - some of us believed they were grand countries when we got there – we now see the levels of poverty and so on, and remember how much support they gave us. We really feel that we ought to be doubly grateful for that.

But, in the current situation, the most important thing is that even as we stabilise those countries, we are encouraging South African businesspeople to get into those countries to invest and help rehabilitate the economies of those countries, so that the people who have come here can also find their way back to their motherlands to find jobs, essentially, and relieve us of the pressure of caring for them over here. As we do that, even our own businesspeople here are therefore benefiting from investment opportunities that arise.

South Africa would be in danger if there were oceans of poverty surrounding it everywhere, in terms of the stability of the people of our country, their comfort, their being welcome in those countries and those countries not being inclined to attack us when they see that we are their friends, when they know they can rely on us irrespective of whatever disasters or problems there are. So ultimately this is really in the interests of the people of South Africa.

I think it is important that we educate the people in our country in terms of attitudes so that we are surrounded by friends rather than people who are bitter because we do not care for them. I thank you.

  Withdrawal of cases as a result of poor investigation by officers

1. Mr Z C Ntuli asked the Minister of Safety and Security:

   (1) How many cases were withdrawn in each province as a result of poor investigation by the relevant officers;

   (2) whether any strategies are in place to retrain them; if not, why not; if so what are the relevant details? C7E

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, as I respond to the question by the hon Ntuli, I want to invite the hon members to keep two things in mind that have already been raised in this House. Firstly, we have spoken about an instrument that we have developed for the police, which therefore monitors management and performance. The second aspect that we have raised here is the matter of our cluster reviewing the criminal justice system.

I therefore want to say that we have not compiled a report of cases that have been withdrawn as a consequence of poor investigations from our courts. We have not done that. But we are currently using this management and performance tool of the SA Police Service to trace dockets that have been closed. Our experience is that not enough investigations had been done with respect to some of the cases that were being investigated. So, we are recalling those dockets in order to get them reinvestigated. At the appropriate time those dockets will go back to court, because withdrawn cases will never serve before court at any time. We’ll take them back to court for prosecution.

But the members who may have been guilty of poor investigation work must go through various training courses as a matter of routine, including the detective learning programme. What is going to help with respect to the review of the criminal justice system, is the fact that the National Prosecuting Authority will assign legal advisers to the investigations.

Therefore, when a docket is placed before court, it will be a docket that has exhausted the interrogation process in terms of its value. In future, therefore, no docket will be placed before that court which is not a product of a thorough investigation. This is therefore how we are dealing with this particular matter.

Mr Z C NTULI: Chairperson, firstly, I would like to thank the hon Minister for the good and detailed response. Minister, I would like to find out whether the community safety forums would add any value to these investigations? Secondly, when are we going to establish these community safety forums?

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, the second aspect sounds like a new question to me. The way we are handling the issue of crime is on the basis of co-ordination and integration.

Therefore, anybody who adds value to the matter of investigations is given space to be able to do that.

For starters, crime happens at a local level. Therefore the people who will have better information, even better than the investigators, will be people who live in those communities. Therefore there is a relationship between the investigators and people who may have potential evidence.

Given the fact that the community policing forums work together with the people, they do create conditions that will eventually see peace properly rooted in the communities. They therefore create co-ordination between the police and people on the ground. That’s the value that will be added by the community policing forums. They will indeed assist us better in doing our investigations. I do wish to indicate to members, in terms of ordinary policing procedures - the legal and technical policing procedures – that nobody else should interfere at that level. Nobody, for instance, must interfere with prosecutions at that level.

Placing information in the hands of investigators is something that the police value. In fact, the confidence that has been established between the people and the police and the readiness of the people to share information with the police, has resulted in some of the breakthroughs that the police have made in the line of investigations.

Mr D A WORTH: Deputy Chairperson, my question to the Minister is, I think, related to the question that was on the Order Paper. In the past a lot of files – police files – have been lost inadvertently or for whatever reason. We were assured that in future these files would be put on computer and that this problem should then be overcome. How far have the police progressed with this service by now?

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chair, indeed it is the intention of government across the Public Service to computerise our work. This is also the case when it comes to the dockets that we prepare for presentation to court for trial. But in terms of the South African Police Service we have not yet done this everywhere in the country. We are beginning to computerise dockets. What is available all the time is a record of the complaint, which has details of the complainant and the initial work done. You will have that everywhere.

The matter of lost dockets is a matter that continues to worry me. But given the fact that we are now able to enter the system of any police station in the country, we are able to pick up complaints that were reported and where there must be commensurate numbers, which were opened on the basis of the complaints.

I am sure that you will know that every complaint that is made at the community service centre is recorded in what is called the Occurrence Book. Therefore, those complaints must be equal to the dockets that are opened, unless - and this happens all the time - the person who submitted the complaint came back later and withdrew the case. That’s something else. But where we are investigating, there needs to be a number of those dockets that are commensurate with the complaints that were received. In those circumstances - as we are recalling the dockets I have referred to - we are going to be able to pick those up and therefore attend to the matter of lost dockets.

When that happens, anybody who was an investigator and was in possession of that docket is wholly responsible for that docket. And when that docket goes missing, that person has to answer for it, because missing dockets talk to the commission of crime. Therefore, anybody who has lost a docket will have to convince us that no crime has been committed. Obviously, those people are going to have to answer for the lost dockets. And there is a system, as I say, that we are now using to recall the dockets. In cases where dockets are missing, we are going to take steps against the relevant investigators.

Ms B L MATLHOAHELA: Minister, through the Chair, do the withdrawn cases relate mostly to the poorest of the poor, or to all levels of society, because someone has been done an injustice here? Hon Minister, were there any claims instituted? If there were any, how many? I ask this because someone has been done an injustice and it seems that someone has not done a proper job here.

In relation to the second part of the same question, it does seem as if the challenge lies in the lack of efficiency. However, every officer has gone for training. Is this because of a lack of proper training at the college, or does the challenge lie with the few trainers? Are the evaluation standards appropriate enough to be able to produce satisfactory results? If the answer to the last question is yes, why is there retraining?

What is the amount of money that is going to be spent on retraining? [Interjections.] It’s relevant, hon members. I think the Minister has answered the last question already.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, in terms of the Rules of this House, any member - I repeat, any member - regardless of political affiliation, has a chance to ask their own questions. However, these are new questions that are being put to our Minister. They are irrelevant to the main question.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Thank you, hon member. Yes, I was going to ask the Minister whether he wanted to answer today or not. If the Minister says that he is not prepared to give an answer today, then the member has to put the question in writing and submit it to the relevant office. Hon Minister, are you going to answer that question?

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, it is true that I have answered the questions that I was asked. The new questions can be resubmitted and I’ll answer them.

Mr S SHICEKA: House Chairperson, well, there are only two questions, Minister. The first one you have answered. In your reply you indicated that you welcomed everybody who contributed to investigations. You have a situation in which, as you know, the metro police, who are tasked with policing, are not given the power to investigate. Is that power going to be extended to them, so that they can contribute to preventing and combating crime?

The second aspect is the issue of investigations, and the cases that are withdrawn from court because of lack of evidence. In some cases you find that investigators don’t have a watertight case in terms of taking statements and gathering evidence. Is there any intention to ensure that there is an instruction in terms of which investigators work hand in hand with prosecutors, so that they are able to close that gap?

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, I have already responded to the last question. Regarding the first one, you know the Constitution. I mentioned some time ago in this House that section 199 of the Constitution talks about “a single police service”. This section provides for a single police service and, in terms of section 207, the National Commissioner will deploy people at the national, provincial and local levels where appropriate. So we have those three levels.

We are taking a second look at the Constitution, because we want to align the police properly. That matter is going to be coming back by way of an amendment to the South African Police Service Act. Already, there is interaction between members of the SAPS and - someone is laughing, I almost said the SACP – the metros. [Laughter.] In the end, when this Parliament has agreed, there will be changes that will give one single line of command, right through the structures. There are people who are arguing against this, and their arguments – I can’t fully understand what they are saying – seem to be that we are taking away a necessary structure at the local level. We are not taking away that structure. Instead, we are giving that structure power; the kind of power you are talking about.

At the moment there are certain policing functions that the metro can’t perform, simply because they don’t have those powers. Therefore, when they are integrated into this single police service, they are going to have those powers, but they are a structure that is going to be operating there in terms of the Constitution. So, in future, people at that level, the local level, are going to have the requisite power in order for them to do all manner of police work. Thank you.

     Training of police officers to deal with white-collar crime

1. Mr Z C Ntuli asked the Minister of Safety and Security: Whether police officers are well trained to deal with white collar- crime; if not, why not; if so, how many police officers are still to be trained? C8E

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, the training that we are giving members of the SA Police Service is training that is integrated, so that they can investigate any crime, including white-collar crime. The courses that they do for the various interventions that they need to do include matters of organised crime, commercial crime, which include issues of money-laundering and so on, and serious and violent crime.

Those interventions, which are specialised, ensure that officers are well equipped to investigate any of those types of crimes. For instance, we trained people during the previous financial year as follows. A total of 249 members have been involved in combating commercial crime; the number of those combating organised crime is 347; and the number for those involved in fighting serious and violent crime is 264. In other words, we have trained, just in the previous financial year, 860 people. In this financial year that training is ongoing.

It is training which we believe is very important, particularly at this time, given the incidence of crime by organised groups that are operating in South Africa. Thank you very much.

Mr Z C NTULI: This is just a short question, hon Minister. Is the private sector helping in combating this white-collar crime?

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, they are helping. There is a partnership that we are forging with the private sector. There are meetings that we hold with big business that are organised by Business Against Crime. Of course, this is a recent development. It started last year, on the back of a meeting that they had had with the President on 25 August.

Before that, we had a number of projects that we were handling together with them, with respect, for instance, to commercial crime. There are projects that deal with armed robberies at financial institutions, including banks, as well as cash-in-transit robberies. We are working together with the banking sector to deal with some of those matters.

Before I came here I had a meeting with representatives of the private security industry. There are some discussions we are having with them as well, because what we want to do is to have rules and co-ordination between all structures that are involved in crime-prevention and combating. We are going to have a broader meeting with them at a later stage, involving the entire justice, crime-prevention and security cluster, to look at the relationship and structure it properly, so that we can fight crime better in South Africa, particularly of the organised kind. So, we have a partnership which is working well. Thank you.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, arising from my dynamic Minister’s response, let me find out from him whether, based on the successes that were seen in the country, with some of these white-collar crimes really being nipped in the bud, there is any justification for the alarmists in this country who are saying crime is out of control.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, the first admission we must make as South Africans is that crime is a serious matter in South Africa. I don’t want us to compare South Africa with any other country. Crime is a serious matter, and we want to fight it. But we don’t want to ask only certain structures or certain people to become involved in the fight against crime. We must all be involved, particularly those people who are law-abiding citizens of this country.

There are various levels on which we can make a contribution. I spoke about those levels at the National Assembly the other day, including the patrolling of the areas where we live. I made the example of the hon Patricia de Lille. She is not the only one. There are people who are Members of Parliament who participate in patrols where they live. That is important to us.

There are members who participate in the various structures that we have in the communities where they live, where there are community-based organisations that are also involved, not just in terms of policing, but across the criminal justice system.

Some of them are assisting NGOs, for instance, to deal among other things with the matter of the rehabilitation of offenders and the effort, which is very important - that the Deputy Minister referred to - of reintegration of people into the social stream of the communities they come from and, of course, the economic life of those communities, so that they do not reoffend.

There are all of those matters and we all should play a role with respect to that matter. Nobody should give the criminals the impression that we are … There are some people who use the phrase “losing the fight against the criminals”.

You can’t lose the fight against people who are criminals. If you say that you are losing the fight against criminals, it means that you don’t have a Constitution. The Constitution is the vehicle we use to deal with crime. When you say we have lost the fight against crime, you mean that we don’t have a Constitution and we don’t have constitutional structures such as this House when you speak like that.

It is important for us to admit, one, that crime is a serious matter and, two, that crime is the kind of thing that needs all of us to be involved by way of crime prevention on one level, and by way of actually combating crime on an other level. Thank you very much.

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: Chair, the Minister has referred to the Constitution. Does he, therefore, say that the criminals actually care about something like the Constitution and whether it exists? It doesn’t seem like they care about that. They just care about their criminal activities.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: That’s precisely the point. We are here in this House - let me not talk about other structures - to uphold the Constitution. And because we are here to uphold the Constitution, those who are violating the Constitution, like the criminals, are our enemies. And if they are our enemies and we are the people who are protecting the Constitution, how can we walk away from the engagement against these people and say that they are winning the fight? I’ve never heard of anything like that.

We are all fighting against them, and we can’t say that they are winning. I wouldn’t understand a team that is on the field and is playing against another team, and at a point when the match has not ended - they are losing by four points to zero - they say, “Let’s walk away because this team is winning.” There is nothing like that. [Laughter.] We are upholding the Constitution; that is why we are defined as law- abiding citizens. As law-abiding citizens we use the instruments that the Constitution gives us in order for us to defend our democracy. We defend it against all those who want to undermine it, including criminals.

Mr D A WORTH: Deputy Chair, I would just like to come back to that original question; we sort of strayed a bit from it. The Minister stated that more police officers had been recruited to deal with commercial crime. What shortage is there in the SA Police Service with regard to people who can do forensic analysis or examine books, like bookkeepers, to trace money? What shortages are there and, if there is a shortage, does the police again use private firms?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Hon Minister, you can answer that or the member can submit that question. Thanks.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: There is a phrase I like in Afrikaans.

Ek praat ‘n bietjie Afrikaans. Ek is van Cradock afkomstig, en ons praat Afrikaans daar. Ek wil ’n bietjie spog. [I speak a bit of Afrikaans. I hail from Cradock, and we speak Afrikaans there. I want to boast a little.]

I want to boast a little. An HON MEMBER: Brag.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Yes, I want to brag. And because I want to brag, please put that question in writing because I want to come here and brag about our Forensic Science Laboratory. I want to brag! It is a new question, but please submit it because I’d like to come and “’n bietjie spog hierso” [brag a little here.]. [Laughter.] Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Could I please appeal to members not to smuggle in new questions as follow-up questions.

Use of private entities in recruiting staff for Department of Correctional Services

1. Mr A T Manyosi asked the Minister of Correctional Services:

 Whether his department will reconsider the use of private entities in
 recruiting staff for the department; if not, why not; if so, how soon
 can it be discontinued?                  C9E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, at the outset I want to indicate that the Department of Correctional Services is not ready to reconsider making use of private service providers for recruitment, for the mere fact that we do not have the capacity to do the recruitment work ourselves. We advertise one post, we get 1 000 applicants, and as the DCS we cannot have one of our officials sitting and sifting through 1 000 applications for one post. It’s for that reason that we employ the services of an outside service provider.

During the period of 1 April 2005 to 31 March 2007 the department, of course with the assistance of the service providers that we have employed, succeeded in advertising and filling 5 230 posts in 2005 and 3 715 posts in

1. At this point in time, the department is also in the process of appointing more than 2 627 entry-level officials before 31 March 2007, using these service providers.

The department is still facing major challenges in terms of a high vacancy rate and the creation of much-needed additional entry-level posts and it will only be in the department’s interest to continue making use of external service providers for recruitment purposes.

The department will, after the end of this financial year, embark on activating the prescribed tender process to invite private service providers to tender for the contract of advertising and response handling for the recruitment of staff as of 1 April 2007 to 31 March 2009. If I may also add, when it comes to professional skills like nurses, doctors, pharmacists and so on, we are very thin on the ground, and that is becoming our challenge in terms of recruiting.

Maybe I should also just share with the House that the Minister for the Public Service and Administration is currently working on the creation of one Public Service. One of our challenges as Correctional Services is that our nurses and professionals within Correctional Services are paid substantially lower than nurses and social workers within our sister departments. What the reason for that is, I really don’t know. I’m still seeking a response to that question.

We are also trying to say to our colleagues, at least in terms of what we should be looking at, that parity should be created between professionals in the Department of Correctional Services and those in our sister departments. We do believe that the creation of one Public Service will go a long way towards addressing that matter, and we will be in a better position to recruit these professionals to the Department of Correctional Services. Thank you.

Mr A T MANYOSI: Chairperson, my question to the Deputy Minister is, seeing that his department is not able to run a section that deals with recruitment, is the Department of the Public Service and Administration not in a position to accommodate them in terms of rendering those services? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, regarding the volumes we’re looking at as the Department of Correctional Services - as I mentioned earlier and it will be said in the budget presentations as well - we have very high of vacancy rates, not just in terms of professionals, but also in terms of ordinary staff members and officials within the department at all levels, from the lowest to the highest. The reason we have embarked on this process is because we have consulted with the Department of the Public Service and Administration in terms of our employing the services of an outside service provider to assist us with this task, and they were agreeable to that. Thank you.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, arising from the answer by my magnificent Deputy Minister, I want to ask the Deputy Minister, after the admission by her officials during their budget briefing, whether this kind of arrangement can’t be looked at, at some stage, because they agreed and conceded that they are spending more now than when they did the recruiting themselves. I just want to check if this can’t be reviewed at some point, based on what the department told us during the budget briefing.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chair, when I started I did give an indication of this. At this point in the life of Correctional Services we are looking at maybe next year or the year thereafter, having taken into consideration the amount that we spend. And I’m not aware of the precise amount that we’re spending on employing the services of these service providers. We might be in a position by then, but right now we cannot do that, because we as Correctional Services simply do not have the capacity in terms of human resources to handle the recruitment for these posts that are vacant. Thank you.

     Use of services of retired judges to deal with case backlog

1. Mr S Shiceka asked the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:

   Whether she will consider using the services of retired judges to deal with the backlog in cases; if not, why not; if so, how will this be managed? C10E

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I would like to thank the hon member for raising this matter, because tackling this case backlog is one of the most important competencies of my department.

To answer the question further, let me describe the process in which retired judges come back and are requested to assist in tackling this problem. This process is managed jointly by the executive and the judiciary. The recalling of these judges for active service is initiated by the Judge President of the division where the services of such a retired judge are required. The Judicial Service Commission is then approached and it is at the recommendation of the JSC that I then would appoint a retired judge to assist.

We have an important pilot project at four sites - Pretoria, Protea, Kuilsrivier and Pietermaritzburg. This pilot project is run in partnership with the National Prosecuting Authority, the Legal Aid Board and the SA Police Service. We started this project on 1 November 2006. The project has proved a great success. We have finalised 500 cases. We have had a conviction rate of well over 75%. I intend rolling out this project upon review when it comes to an end in April. I must say, hon members, that projects of this nature will take place concurrent with the review of the criminal justice system.

Mr S SHICEKA: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, as a follow-up arising from your answer: Is there any programme of fast-tracking this training of new judicial officers that is being contemplated, so as to avoid future case backlogs and so that retired people are allowed to enjoy their retirement?

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, indeed that would be one of the approaches we take to ensure that we have properly qualified judges who are properly trained. I am pleased to indicate to the hon members that we are hoping that Parliament, in the first term of this year, will pass legislation that will set up the Judicial Education Institute. I hope that we will be able to fast-track that because the training of judges is critical to the transformation of the judiciary.

Dr F J VAN HEERDEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. The hon Minister will know very well the situation in the Free State, where the Judge President initiated the appointment of two retired judges. The Minister then, according to information, turned that initiative by the Judge President down. Could the hon Minister please explain to the House why she did not appoint these two retired, experienced and available judges in the first term in the Free State Division?

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: The hon member’s information is incorrect. But, for the benefit of members here and because this matter has been in the media, I want to give the correct information.

In 2004, when I was appointed Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development, I entered into an agreement with the heads of courts in the country that we would work together towards equity in the appointment of judges in this country. Judge Presidents recommend appointments of Acting Judges to me and I then appoint them. We also agreed that we should ensure that women also come to the Bench. In order for us to have women in the judiciary, we must therefore provide them with acting opportunities.

I must say that the Judge President in the Free State has done very well over the years. He has made an effort to bring blacks and women to the Bench in an acting capacity. In this particular instance, sometime in October last year, he approached me regarding batches of appointments in the first part of November and December. He had given me names, and I was very satisfied with the recommendations that he put before me. I went ahead and appointed those acting persons.

In the second batch he recommended male advocates, in other words from the Bar. I then asked him if he could make an effort for there to be a good mix of gender and race. He did not come back to me. We were surprised to see this issue in the newspaper and it was grossly exaggerated.

I had a meeting with the heads of courts, I think two weeks ago. We agreed that it was correct for us to work together towards the transformation of the judiciary and to pursue the approaches we had agreed to. I must therefore say that we are working very closely together with the heads of courts, and that it is unfortunate that this incident was reported in such a way.

Mr M A MZIZI: Thank you, Chairperson. Chairperson, we might now be losing ground. I think the question here was about the backlog of cases. The question was whether the hon Minister would reconsider bringing back the retired judges. The hon Minister allayed my fears by saying that they have a new pilot project. My request would be for that pilot project to be placed before us for our attention, so that we can peruse and follow it up in order to deal with the backlog. My fear, if I may bring it to the fore, is that in the past when the new dispensation commenced, a lot of magistrates resigned as hon Minister will remember. Because of their knowledge, we had to bring them back. We now have a problem with taking them out of the system so that the new magistrates who are now being trained can take up their duties, because they keep on reminding us of the deferred cases. So we cannot take them out of the system. It would probably be the same if we brought in the judges. Those were my fears: that if we kept on bringing in people who had retired, we would then be closing the entrance to the new ones coming in.

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon member, I agree with the points that you have made. We will experience more problems of backlogs at the magisterial level. That’s the coalface. We do need to employ a multiplicity of strategies. Some will have to do with more training. I think that is one of the most important strategies that we should continue to employ, because that is about a consciousness and a certain type of dedication. It is about avoiding deferred judgments. It is about producing quality work on the Bench. So, training is vital and very important.

We therefore need to improve the current pool of those on the Bench, in the lower courts and in the higher courts. We will use retired judges and magistrates, in particular special programmes like the one I am referring to, where in fact we have a target to meet. We have to reduce the backlog in such numbers to a certain point.

So, I take the point that the hon member has made. We must continue to be seized with the challenge of case backlogs.

Mr D G MKONO: Thank you, Chairperson. I want to thank the hon Minister for the most informative and detailed response, particularly with regard to the issue of retired judges. But I need clarity, hon Minister, regarding the perceptions and rumours doing the rounds to the effect that the judiciary is not yet transformed, or else is very slowly moving in that direction. If we are to embark on a campaign of recruiting them back, particularly the majority who were deeply entrenched in the system, are we not inviting problems for ourselves?

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: I just want to begin by saying that we have come a long way, and I think we have to acknowledge that. We have had very progressive judges in the lead like the late Judge Mahomed, the former Chief Justice Arthur Chaskalson and the current Chief Justice. All of them are progressive and are all seized with the challenge of transformation. I thought I should make that point.

But if you look at the national goal of transforming our society, in other words bringing back normality and doing away with these systemic strictures created by apartheid, we have to move up a step. We need more pace. To that extent, I agree that we have to move in a determined way to transform the judiciary.

Having said that, I think there will be a place, occasionally, for retired judges. But the truth of the matter is, whether in the civil service, whether in Parliament, whether with the executive, that for a country to move forward you do need to have growth of sorts; you do need to have new entrants.

With the judiciary, we must work determinedly to move more people - women and blacks - to the Bench. It is true that this should be a particular focus and it is the right thing to do, because we are directed by the Constitution to make the Bench representative.

Training mechanisms for judicial officers to address discrepancies in
                         sentencing patterns

1. Kgoshi M L Mokoena asked the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:

   Whether her department will institute training mechanisms for judicial officers to address the discrepancies in sentencing patterns? C11E

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, yes, the question was almost answered, judging by the reply I gave earlier. Indeed, we have brought a Bill to Parliament and we hope that it will be passed this year. The said Bill will clear the way for the training of judges.

We want to establish a judicial education institute. If all goes well, colleagues, we want to turn the soil next year.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, arising from the reply from my always humble but decisive Minister, I wish to ask a follow-up question, which is based on some incidents that took place in our country. There have been continual problems in the judiciary of our country. For example, someone used a toy gun to hold up staff, demanding his ID, and was sentenced to five years. Another person scratched a colleague using a pair of scissors and was sentenced to five years.

Then there was the person who shot and killed a young boy, saying that he mistook him for a dog, and he was sentenced to two and a half years. How soon can we see an end to this situation, because to some of us it is so irritating?

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, the hon member is aware that for some years the Law Commission has been assigned the task of looking at the sentencing policy in this country. There is a report that they have produced. I have looked at the report, and I’m going to return it to the Law Commission. We’ll discuss the report with them, because we want them to consider some very relevant information relating to sentencing. We will come back to the House with more information in this regard, even around the process. But, again, this is a big issue for the Law Commission, from a legal side.

Hon member, you will be aware that we had the interim minimum sentence legislation that was passed during Madiba’s time. It was our then President, Madiba, who requested that we look into minimum sentences. Thereafter interim legislation came to pass, which has been renewed every two years. It is due for consideration by Parliament again this year, on my recommendation.

I am going to bring amended legislation before Parliament around minimum sentences. It won’t be renewable as it was before; it will be a proper Act for consideration by Parliament. We have considered some of the issues raised by legal scholars and by our colleagues around minimum sentences. And so we will bring legislation before Parliament.

We do need to have some form of minimum sentencing because of the need to categorise certain crimes as serious crimes. This is a matter that we will put before you for consideration. Thank you.

Mr M A MZIZI: Chairperson, arising from the Minister’s reply, I’m happy that she made mention of the question of minimum sentences. My question relates to training. Is training at the Justice College compulsory or optional? We have had more problems regarding the training of magistrates at the Justice College, so is it effective enough? Further, does training only apply to magistrates? What about the judges: do they also go to the Justice College for training? Thank you.

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, the Justice College is being revamped. There is a dedicated head of the college now, who is employed at deputy director-general level. We are hoping that they will have improved modules, which will address the problems that have been recurring in particular in the training of magistrates.

The hon member will be aware that judges have never used the Justice College. We are hoping, by the way, that when we have the college we will phase out the training - from the Current Justice College to the new institution.

You must remember that we are now beginning to really complete the integration of the magistracy into the judiciary. You might remember that in the past the magistracy was a quasi-public service. So now we are moving closer to making it the real lower courts. In that sense, magistrates will then be trained at the other college. Maybe this justice college will be renamed by you, hon members. It will be an institution that specialises in the training of justice providers, such as persons involved in legal aid, state attorneys. We really want to revamp even the state attorney’s office, and all manner of justice providers in the justice family other than those that are currently part of the judiciary.

Mr S SHICEKA: House Chair, there is a debate that has been raging on the part of judges, who feel that government cannot prescribe to them in terms of the content of training. They believe that that is their prerogative, and should be left to them.

Regarding this new institution for training, are we going to develop a curriculum, in terms of content, that is going to be dispensed at that level, so that our country will develop common norms and common standards, which, hopefully, can broadly lead to a common level of sentencing and ensure that justice is dispensed equally? Is our approach, Minister, going to be that we ourselves, as the state, are going to develop the curriculum for the training of judges? Thank you.

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I don’t want to disclose the details of the Bill that will come before the House. Yes, this is a valid concern, and there has been a huge debate around it.

I would say that in an open society the Bill will first come before Parliament. So it is elected members who will be considering the Bill. It will be for you, hon members, to scrutinise the Bill and to indicate whether it will bring about the desired outcomes that you are talking about here.

Judges are part of our society; they have similar prejudices as we do and, together with them, we are products of our socialisation. So it is important that they too, like us members, be steeped in the values of our Constitution. So I’m hoping that hon members will engage the Bill that will come before them properly.

I don’t think it is proper for the executive to write the curriculum required for the training, but I do think that it is proper for civil society to be represented on the board, or whatever. In other words, persons other than judges should be part of the board that will be heading that institution. And indeed there is, and there should be, a role for hon members and for the executive member responsible for justice.

Representivity of personnel in SA Navy in relation to demographics of the country

1. Mr A J L Moseki asked the Minister of Defence:

   (1) Whether the personnel in the SA Navy, especially in middle management, reflect the demographics of this country; if not, why not, if so, what are the relevant details;

   (2) whether he will make a statement on the matter? C16E

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Madam Chair, the question relates to representivity of the SA Navy. The position is that the navy is not yet representative at the middle-management level in relation to the demographics of the Republic of South Africa.

The situation as things stand today is as follows, and I am looking only at the middle-management layer. In the rank of captain, 9,86% is African; 7,04% is coloured; 2,82% is Indian; and 80,28% is white.

In the rank of commander, 24,3% is African; 10,08% is coloured; 3,36% is Indian; and 6,21% is white. In the rank of lieutenant-commander, 44,19% is African; 5,81% is coloured; 2,33% is Indian; and 47,67% is white. In the rank of warrant officer, Class 1, 4,66% is African; 20,50% is coloured; 11,49% is Indian; and 63,35% is white.

In the rank of warrant officer, Class 2, 16,61% is African; 36,53% is coloured; 8,49% is Indian; and 38,38% is white. Now the question is: Why is the situation like that?

In very brief terms it is because the vast number of officers that came into the SA National Defence Force when it was integrated would have come from the nonstatutory forces and some of them from the old Bantustan forces such as in the Ciskei. None of the Bantustans had navies, so we could not have had navy officers from Bantustans. Of the liberation formation, MK had some officers from the navy trained as navy officers, but very few.

The old SA Defence Force was composed of all the officers that the country had. So, we had to start with the integration of the SANDF. We then had to start training at home and in friendly countries, sending young people to go and train there.

To produce one officer is not a matter of a year or two; it is a matter of more than approximately 15 years if you start with the youngsters. It will go up to 15 years if you take experience into account. After completion, people have to build up experience because you want quality people; you have to send them out and therefore it takes many years.

This is something that is not always present in the mind of many people; they think that you can just take somebody and train them quickly to become an officer. It doesn’t work like that. The people that actually reach the top ranks of officer are selected. They will distinguish themselves as they come up through the ranks. If you start with a group of about 30 to 40, only a very small percentage of those will stay on in terms of discipline and get to where you want them to be.

That explains why we are where we are. I think even looking at these figures, the numbers that have begun to come through are really commendable. If you look at warrant officer, Class 1, you’ll see that from the coloured section, you already have 20% of them that are coming through this way. If you look at the lieutenant-commander class, you will see that 44% of those are from the African communities. The percentage that is coming up from the previously disadvantaged communities is commendable.

We are particularly excited by the fact that significant numbers of these white officers who have stayed behind, not so much the very elderly but the ones that are growing up and of comparable age to their black counterparts, are young men and women who have committed themselves totally to the development of a new SANDF. This is a particularly critical element, because through growing up in a new atmosphere and coming from schools together they don’t have to learn the habit of working with a black counterpart. It is really marvellous to see them.

Last week we were handing over Spioenkop. There were a number of crews and of the only crew that was there the vast majority was black. I think they were only 3% to 5% white; while African, coloured and Indian were there in huge numbers. Their commander, of course, was a white officer, somebody with an extremely forward-looking attitude devoted to cultivating these young people.

Next week there is a change of command on the SAS Amatola. The first African commander produced by the new order will command the first of the corvettes we have bought and is not there by some empowerment process or something, but because this person distinguished himself or herself. [Interjections.] Yes: Will take command! [Applause.]

All the officers who talked me about it last week said: It’s taken a long time, but we can say to you, Minister, here is a commander who will meet any of the commanders. We met commanders in the Pacific Ocean, we have come from Chile, we have been in Argentina, in exercise Atlasur, and here is a young commander that is taking over the SAS Amatola. But we can say that this is not black empowerment. This is clean, pure talent that has emerged from the ranks. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr A J L MOSEKI: Chairperson, let me first commend the Minister for a very good response to the question. I just want to establish from the Minister if there is a strategy to address the challenge that the Minister has just given to the House about transformation, the imbalance within the Navy and a strategy to turn the situation around? And, if there is a strategy, what targets have we set for ourselves as a department to ensure that over a period of time the playing field will be levelled? Thank you. The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Madam Chair, it is not possible to deal exhaustively with that. We have in place, at this point in time, the Department of Defence Human Resource Strategy 2010. We have set ourselves some targets for 2010. In fact, we have set ourselves targets in that by 2010 - if you look at the standing armed forces -we should approximate the demographics as suggested by Parliament earlier on.

This is proceeding with very appreciable success. We are going to Germany in the next month to attend to the naming as well as the commissioning of a ship and a submarine. All of the crews have been prepared by us by recruiting young people 22 years of age, working them both for immediate staffing of the ship as well as reserves that should be available; whether for communication, engineering, purposes of maintenance and all that. We have this personnel prepared. We take them at 22 and work them through. When we put the crews in the newly acquired ships, the demographics that have been indicated by Parliament are what guide us, plus the reserves that we have built for them are there.

We are quite satisfied. By 2010 the standing armed forces will be like that; there is a false concept that the standing armed forces must be the nucleus that can deal with anything that arises at any time and that the rest are in reserve. With the Navy, too, this should be the position.

When we commission this ship and the submarine in Germany next month, the units that go are ready. The people that we are training in military skills development are preparing as reserves and we are putting others through technikon to study mechanical engineering and various other supplementary and supporting activities; all of them guided by the percentages that have been indicated in the White Paper. We are proceeding along these lines, and we think that by 2010 we will be in a very comfortable position.

Let me say, of course, that sometimes we have to fall back because you may have personnel issues. Defence can be a very dangerous thing; if you put men and women under the command of someone who is not as capable as they should be and they go to sea in a submarine, you might slaughter many people unintentionally. If you put people in an aeroplane, for instance troops that are going on a peace support mission somewhere, and the pilot is not sufficiently qualified, you are not going to be absolutely satisfied. You cannot take a risk simply because you want some black or white face there.

Ultimately, we have to take very seriously the question of being absolutely satisfied that this is the best we have and that this thing will happen as it should. That’s why I say to you that even these young white people who are part of this officer call that is coming up, all of them will learn from experience. They are there, they see a mistake happen and they see the consequences. You don’t have to tell them this in the newspapers. Experience is the best teacher with regard to that. We keep standards; we are very sensitive about standards even as we work according to those demographics that our country has sent through to us.

Finally, when I landed in Ethiopia for a meeting with Ministers of Defence, one of the Ministers said to me: “How come you guys are still being flown around by whites? Where are the black people?” I said, “Look, my man, one of the things you must understand is that in South Africa we have a very big percentage of South Africans who are white, who serve this country and will continue to serve it for a long time to come. They have no other country in the world and we want them as our resources to serve our nation.”

As far as this is concerned, you must accept forever that South Africa will always have some people of European descent serving this nation in one way or the other. And all of us, I think, must come to terms with that as well, because this black empowerment and advancement must not mean the exclusion of the white section of our population. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr N D HENDRICKSE: Thank you, Minister. I think it is heartening to hear that we cannot put anybody behind the controls of a ship or an aeroplane who doesn’t have experience.

I am just looking through some of the figures of the formerly disadvantaged groups which we all come from and struggled for. I am looking at the 1 and 2 warrants; you’ve got here the so-called blacks. You have divided blacks and coloureds. Warrant 1 is 16%; this then goes up with warrant 2 at 46%, and lieutenant-commander at 44%. If you look at the next column, the so- called coloured column, there is 36% in the first slots of warrants coming through and this then drops to 20%, and then to 5%.

I just wondered what was happening. Something seems skewed there. I come from a naval background and, you see, this only happens through experience. It seems quite skewed that you only land up with 5% in the lieutenant- commander class. I wonder whether you could just shed some light on that. I thank you.

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Madam Chair, it would be very difficult for me to deal with the details of these issues. Every one of us knows that if you have classes of children that come from the Western Cape, the Eastern Cape, the Northern Cape and so on, that at the end of some years you may have most of your passes amongst those who come from the Northern Cape. Another year might be different.

Ultimately, if you were to take all lieutenant-commanders in one class and tell them to write an examination, you would check when you marked their papers who got how many answers correct and how many wrong. You are not concerned about the colour of their skin but only about their performance. That is what happens.

Sometimes those things are influenced – but I do not want to go that route – by who is marking the papers; and, at times, by the background of the person who wrote the examination. For example, a son of a former captain of the Navy growing up in a home in which all the resources are available and in which the father can help him to study the material, will probably perform better than a child who comes from the shacks. Children from shacks may not have been exposed to that material before and may not have family backup.

There might be other reasons, because our society is varied. So, I can’t explain why we have this number here and another number there. What is quite clear is that the figures are changing steadily, in a manner that gives us hope that we are closing that gap. That is what matters at this stage.

I think this will get even bigger as we go deeper into the human resource strategy, because what we are going to do is factor into the injection of the entrants the numbers that would enable us to catch up with the demographics dictated by the White Paper. Thank you.

Ms A N T MCHUNU: Hon Chairperson, I would like to thank the Minister for the explanations he has given us. In terms of the volunteer groups of Boy Scouts and Girl Guides – Boy Scouts borne by founder Baden-Powell - would the Defence Ministry be prepared to help the schools that have Boy Scouts and Girl Guides so as to inculcate this spirit of loyalty, commitment and discipline? In that way, we would be growing a crop of youngsters who would fit quite well into the Defence Force and the Navy. Thank you very much.

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Madam Chair, I was also a Boy Scout. [Laughter.] [Applause.] Now, I would attest, as indeed the hon member also attests, that Boy Scout training is very helpful in many ways. But I think South Africa has reached a stage at which we must do something about transforming the Boy Scout movement as well. Firstly, the statement: “On my honour I will honour the Queen and the King,” has to be changed. [Laughter.] The Boy Scout’s honour vow must be amended.

With regard to the question of discipline, how to behave, how to endure and how to assist strangers who may be lost, all of this is a commendable culture that we must encourage.

I have, as a matter of fact, a former colleague, Nkwenkwe Nkomo, with whom I did time on Robben Island. He is the head of the Boy Scouts. I said to him that something needs to be done about this. Once the Boy Scouts have been amended in certain ways, I think we could say in the schools that boys could, for example, say: “On my honour, I will try to serve my people like Nelson Mandela served the country,” and so on. [Applause.]

            Construction of new cells at Nelspruit prison 13.   Ms F Nyanda asked the Minister of Correctional Services:

  Whether he will consider building new cells at the Nelspruit prison
  which are densely populated and have leaking roofs; if so, what are
  the relevant details; if not why not?              C17E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, since we are in the business of declaring where we come from, I was a Brownie. I was a Girl Guide, and I went on to become a Sunday school teacher whilst I was still going to church. I think it says a lot about me and the Minister here. I think the good Minister here can also tell us where he comes from. [Laughter.]

To respond to the question, at present there are no plans for the extension of Nelspruit. However, the department, through its upgrading work, is rebuilding the correctional facilities in Tzaneen, and a total of 60 bed spaces will be added to that centre and the province as a whole. This is, of course, besides the additional recreational facilities and teaching facilities that will be built at the same centre.

With regard to the second part of the question, I think members are aware that all major infrastructural development, upgrading and maintenance of government buildings rest with the Department of Public Works. I do not want to say that the Department of Correctional Services is not at fault. When we were drafting the responses, we got in touch with the head of Nelspruit who then told us that, through no fault of theirs, it had been left out of the previous financial year’s budget, coming to an end on 31 March this year, by the Department of Public Works. It is indeed included in the financial year starting 1 April, and they will look at the leaks in the roof. It is not the whole centre, but sections of the centre where the roof leaks. They’ve given us the assurance that it will indeed be attended to in the coming financial year. Thanks.

Ms F NYANDA: Chairperson, I have a very serious concern that we are …

Nginenkinga enkulu kabi uma kuthiwa imali ayikho bese kuthiwa izokhokhelwa kusabelo mali salonyaka. Bengilaphaya kuleliya jele mina uqobo lwami. Uma ungalibona leliya jele ukuthi imvula inetha iziboshwa zingazi ukuthi zibheke ngakuphi. Ukulala kunzima laphaya ngoba lidala leliya jele, lifuna ukulungiswa noma lakhiwe kabusha. Iyabanetha laba bantu imvula laphaya futhi akumnandi. Ngiyabonga sihlalo. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[… saying there are no finances, they will only be made available from this year’s budget. I personally visited that correctional centre. If you can be there when it is raining, you can really see that the inmates do not even know where to shelter. Sleeping is difficult there because that correctional centre is old; and it needs to be either renovated or rebuilt. The inmates become wet when it is raining and this is not nice. Thank you, Chairperson.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: I agree, Chairperson. I have not personally visited the centre yet, but it would be untenable if you were to find inmates sleeping on wet beds or drains. But, as I said, we were given the assurance by the head of the centre that the matter would be attended to in the financial year starting 1 April. Maybe the member could, about six months thereafter, pose another question where we can actually report on the progress that has been made up to that point, or we could come to the select committee and report on that. Thanks.

Mr N J MACK: Chairperson, Deputy Minister, when this committee visited the North West, in terms of maintenance and public works – leaking roofs and bulbs especially - the commissioner there mentioned that sometimes they have the capacity in the centre and the inmates can replace a bulb. However, they have to wait for Public Works, maybe until there are five or 10 bulbs that have blown, to come to replace them. He asked us if we couldn’t look at that again, when they have the capacity in the centre to do this minor maintenance. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, indeed, there are quite a number of centres that do this, especially if it doesn’t require a job to go out on tender, because that is what we are talking about. I would assume that the job you are talking about at the moment is not a minor job but, indeed, as I said, there are centres that do that. They even paint the centre inside. They fix minor things that need to be fixed. So, if it’s a minor problem, I don’t see why the head of the centre cannot instruct that it be done, and it is normally done by inmates themselves. Thanks.

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Chairperson, I would just like to know something from the Deputy Minister. I know that there is a programme in place to renovate prisons and to build new prisons. I also know that there is one in the pipeline for Kimberley and so on. Is the Ministry perhaps not prepared to release a press statement and say that these are the prisons that we are going to build in the new financial year, and that these are the extensions we are going to do? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, I think the member might be aware that Kimberley is under construction as we speak.

With regard to the other centres, I think it’s a new question that can be posed and that the select committee must give us an opportunity to come and present progress thus far. We have done it with the portfolio committee in terms of the other centres that are supposed to be built.

We are expecting the feasibility studies in this coming year, because until the feasibility studies are done, we cannot proceed. We are expecting, in this coming year, the other centres we are proposing to build to be finalised, after which we can put out the tenders and start with the process.

As I said, there was a long report. It was a three-hour report that we submitted to the portfolio committee. So to do justice to that, we could maybe come to the select committee at some point and also present all the challenges that went with the building of the other four that we had proposed to build.

Anti-drug strategy of SAPS, and involvement of foreign nationals in drug trafficking

1. Mr M A Mzizi asked the Minister of Safety and Security:

   (1) Whether, in light of the problems with drug dealing and drug use experienced in certain communities (details furnished), the SA Police Service has a comprehensive anti-drug strategy; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (2) whether there is evidence that foreign nationals are involved in the trafficking of and dealing with drugs in South Africa; if so, how many foreign nationals (a) were convicted of drug- related offences in (i) 2005 and (ii) 2006 and (b) convicted of such offences have been deported after serving their sentences; if not,

   (3) whether the SAPS will in future gather information on foreign nationals allegedly involved in drug-related crimes; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? C19E

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, we have developed a drug master plan for South Africa, which resides under the Central Drug Authority, and it therefore informs our anti-drug strategy. The various departments in South Africa have also developed their own mini drug plans.

In the SA Police Service such a plan also exists, which is quite exhaustive. It is a plan that is used in the fight against drug trafficking not just in South Africa, but also in terms of assisting other parts of the continent of Africa. I am sure the hon member knows that SADC has an organ called the Southern African Regional Police Chiefs Co-operation Organisation, Sarpcco, and that organisation also has a programme to deal with the matter of drug trafficking in the southern region of our continent.

It is true that there are some foreign nationals who are involved in drug trafficking. In 2005 we arrested 502 such people, and from January to the end of March in 2006 the figure was 218.

The problem we have is that when these people have served their sentences they are released, but we have never applied for their deportation after they have served their sentences. Therefore we do not have figures that will indicate how many of those who were convicted and had served their sentences were then deported. We don’t have that, but what we have is their fingerprints and other personal details. These are recorded in our criminal record centre, so that if crimes similar to those they committed come forth we will at least be able to trace who might be involved in terms of those crimes. Thank you very much.

Mnu M A MZIZI: Angibonge Sihlalo, ngiphinde ngibonge nakuNgqongqoshe. Kuyiqiniso lokhu akushoyo uNgqongqoshe, ngivumelana naye. Ngqongqoshe, lo mbuzo ngiwubuze ngoba sibhixwa ngobubende inyama singayidlanga. Maqondana nalaba abayizifikanamthwalo abaqhamuka kwezinye izindawo – angifuni ukukhuluma ngamazwe abantu - uma ufika emazweni ubatshela ukuthi abantu babo benzani lapha, bayamangala. Baye bamangale bese bethi, “Abakwenzi lokho lapha.”

Ngakho-ke yikho lokhu sibuza ukuthi ngakube siyabalandela yini ukuze sibe msulwa thina bantu abahlala kuleli lengabadi. Makungabi abantu abayizifikanamthwalo abenza izinto ngoba uma ufunda noma kuphi emaphepheni uthola ukuthi kwababili noma abathathu, kusuke kunesifika namthwalo.

Angifuni ukukhuluma ngalokho ngoba sewukhulumile ngakho Ngqongqoshe. Kodwa- ke singakuthokozela ukuthola ukuthi kwenzekani ngabo. Phela kuthi uma eseqede isigwebo, ngoba usuke eseke waboshwa, bese eletha ingane yakhe, umshana wakhe nanoma ubani omunye wakhe ozoqhubeka nokusebenza umkhankaso wezidakamizwa. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Mr M A MZIZI: Thank you Chairperson and thanks to the Minister. What the Minister is saying is true and I concur with him. Minister, I asked this question because we are the ones who are falsely accused. With regard to foreign nationals, I don’t want to talk about other people’s countries here, but if you go to their countries to report what their people do in this country, they are stunned. They are stupefied and they respond by saying, “But our people here do not do all these things.”

That is why we are asking whether these foreign nationals who live in this country are put through stringent security clearance measures, so that they cannot infiltrate our innocent people here. It must not be foreigners who do these things here because whenever you read newspapers, you find that if two or three people are implicated in a crime, there is always a foreigner involved.

I don’t want to talk about that though, because you have already spoken about it, Minister. However, we will be happy to find out what happens to these people. When one of them gets arrested, he simply completes his sentence and thereafter he brings his child, nephew or any other person over to continue with drug peddling. Thank you.]

UMPHATHISWA WEZOKHUSELO NOKHUSELEKO: Siyabulela, baw’ uMzizi. Asithandi ukuba umntu simohlwaye kaninzi ngesenzo esinye. Ukuba simbambile umntu, walithothozela ityala lakhe, asifuni ukuba siphinde simohlwaye ngokuthi ngoku sifune ukuba axoxe ityala lokuthunyelwa kwilizwe lakhe lokuzalwa.

Liyinyani lona elokuba bakhona abantu abaza kweli lizwe baze bazibandakanye kuthutyeleziso lweziyobisi. Injalo loo nto. Kodwa ke, loo nto ayithethi ukuba asinakukhangela ukuba singenzani na ngabantu abanjalo. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Thank you, hon Mzizi. We don’t like to punish a person more than once for one criminal act. After we have apprehended a person and the person has served his or her sentence, we don’t want to punish him or her again by asking a court to issue a deportation order against him or her.

It is true that there are people who come to this country to involve themselves in drug peddling. However, this does not necessarily mean that we cannot put mechanisms in place so as to be able to deal with such people.]

In the case of South Africans, we put people who have served jail terms in the rehabilitation programme that my colleague was talking about, and afterwards we reintegrate them into their communities. That is what we do with South Africans. We’ve not had a discussion how to deal with foreign nationals who come into our country and are arrested for committing crimes, are convicted and serve sentences in our correctional facilities. We’ve never discussed what we should then do about them when they are released from those correctional facilities. As I have already indicated, Baba, we’ve never applied for their deportation afterwards.

Mr Z C NTULI: Chairperson, arising out of the Minister’s response, I just want to find out whether, according to your knowledge, the previous government, before 1994, had any plan for dealing with such cases. [Interjections.]

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Thank you very much. Unfortunately I did not serve as a Minister in that government. [Laughter.]

        Number of pilots currently in the service of the SAAF

1. Ms J F Terblanche asked the Minister of Defence: (1) How many pilots (a) are currently in the service of the SA Air Force and (b) have recently left the SAAF;

   (2) whether there is a shortage of fighter pilots and helicopter pilots in the SAAF; if so, what action has been taken to address this situation? C115E

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Madam Chair, I have applied myself quite seriously to this question, and I have to draw the House’s attention to the fact that the answer to this question is there. Nevertheless, this question falls into the category of questions where the answer in fact is the kind of reply that would give an indication, or put in the public arena, information which countries hostile to South Africa would require, and it would enable them to make a determination as to what the strength of the SA Air Force is.

I am not in a position to withhold information from Parliament – because this is one of the Houses of Parliament - but it is important for me to draw your attention to this tricky issue and the dangerous situation that it would create if I just gave this information in the public arena. It is available, I will make it available, provided Parliament give me some guidance as to how to do that without undermining the security considerations of the country.

Perhaps I can give it in the closed session of the committee, or something of that nature, but it is not possible to deal with the question anyhow. Thank you.

THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Thank you, hon Minister. Regarding the hon member who asked the question, could I ask the chairperson of the security committee to invite the member to that closed session meeting so that she can get the information? I am not sure whether the hon member is pleased with that. Hon Terblanche?

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: Thanks, Chairperson. I would very much like to be invited to that, but may I also ask that perhaps the Minister answer me in writing. You have answered similar questions in writing in 2005. I would really like to get that information in writing.

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Madam Chair, it might not be ideal if the question is asked before the House but I give the answer in secret to one member and not to the whole House. It may well be that you may prefer a committee session in which all the parties are present so that no party is privy to information that others do not have. But the reply is available.

THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Hon members, the hon member has said that she would like to be invited to the committee. Therefore I would urge the chairperson to invite her to a closed session meeting of the committee and then she will get the answer there.

        Vacancy rate for judges, prosecutors and magistrates

1. Mr O M Thetjeng asked the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:

   (1) What is the vacancy rate for (a) judges in respect of the various divisions and (b)(i) prosecutors and (ii) magistrates in each province;

   (2) whether any steps are being taken to address the situation in each case; if not, why not; if so, what steps? C117E

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chair, I’ll have to submit this reply, because of the detail that is here. By way of indication in terms of the composition of all personnel in the courts, that is the judiciary, we have a figure of 224, and there are 22 vacancies, which come to 9,82%. The Supreme Court of Appeal comprises 25, and there are five vacancies.

The Northern Cape has seven posts, and zero vacancies. There are zero vacancies also for the Eastern Cape, which has a composition of 16. Cape Town has 28 and three vacancies. The Free State has 14 and zero vacancies. Transvaal, that is Pretoria and Johannesburg, has 68 and four vacancies. Natal has 25 and one vacancy. Mmabatho has five and zero vacancies. Umtata has seven and three vacancies. Bisho has six and two vacancies. The Constitutional Court has 11 and no vacancies. The Land Claims Court has five and no vacancies. The Labour Court and the Labour Appeal Court have five and three vacancies respectively.

I won’t do the same with the others, but just to give you an indication, with the specialised commercial crime unit, we have 46 vacancies. In sexual offences and community affairs, there are seven vacancies. Then we have the Directorate of Special Operations, the DSO, with 70 vacancies, and I think that is the highest. But they have also put in place - let me say it’s the prosecutors - a special plan to address the vacancies and they are starting to fill posts, because the National Prosecuting Authority also has vacancies here. The vacancy rate for magistrates is 108, and the established complement at the magistrate’s court is 1 912.

That gives you a sense of what we have. Otherwise, I would have to read the whole thing in detail. I do not know, Chairperson. I’ll be guided by you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Thank you, hon Minister. Hon Thetjeng, the Minister is going to hand over that detailed report. So I am not sure whether the member is happy with that.

Mr O M THETJENG: Yes, Chairperson, I would appreciate receiving the written report. Thanks.

THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Thank you very much. That concludes the questions.

I would like to thank the Ministers for coming to this House to give us, as Kgoshi Mokoena was saying, eloquent, ever-ready answers - I do not know which “Ever-ready” he was talking about. As a token of our gratitude, we are going to say, as the NCOP, that you have done good work. That is the relationship we want as the legislatures and the executive. Thank you very much.

See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.

The Council adjourned at 16:55. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

                     THURSDAY, 30 NOVEMBER 2006

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Assent by President in respect of Bills

   1) Civil Union Bill [B 26B – 2006] – Act No 17 of 2006 (assented to and signed by Acting President on 29 November 2006).

TABLINGS National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry

 1) Report and Financial Statements of Amatola Water for 2005-2006,
    including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial
    Statements for 2005-2006.

 2) Report and Financial Statements of Mhlathuze Water for 2005-2006,
    including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial
    Statements for 2005-2006.

 3) Report and Financial Statements of Namakwa Water Board for 2005-
    2006, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the
    Financial Statements for 2005-2006.

 4) Report and Financial Statements of Pelladrift Water Board for 2005-
    2006, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the
    Financial Statements for 2005-2006.

 5) Report and Financial Statements of Rand Water for 2005-2006,
    including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial
    Statements for 2005-2006.

 6) Increase in water tariffs for 2006-07 by the Bushbuckridge Water,
    tabled in terms of section 42 of the Local Government: Municipal
    Finance Management Act, 2003 (Act No 56 of 2003).

 7) Increase in water tariffs for 2006-07 by the Mhlathuze Water,
    tabled in terms of section 42 of the Local Government: Municipal
    Finance Management Act, 2003 (Act No 56 of 2003).

National Council of Provinces

The Chairperson

1. The following statement has been submitted to the National Council of Provinces by the Minister of Local Government and Housing in the Western Cape, in terms of section 106(3) of the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act, 2000 (Act No 32 of 2000).

   (a) Investigation in the Oudtshoorn Municipality, Western Cape.

                    WEDNESDAY, 31 JANUARY 2007
   

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Draft Bills submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159

   1) South African Judicial Education Institute Bill, 2007, submitted by the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development. Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development and the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs.

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson

   Report of the Auditor-General on the Findings identified during an Investigation into Alleged Misappropriation of Funds at the National Development Agency [RP 262-2006].

2. The Minister of Education

   a) Government Notice No 1491 published in the Government Gazette No 29317 dated 23 October 2006: Call for comment on the Draft National Policy Framework for Teacher Education and Development in South Africa, made in terms of section 3(4)(f) of the National Education Policy Act, 1996 (Act No 27 of 1996).

   b) Government Notice No R 1052 published in the Government Gazette No 29311 dated 18 October 2006: Regulations relating to the exemption of parents from payment of school fees in Public Schools, made in terms of section 39(4) and 61 of the South African Schools Act, 1996 (Act No 84 of 1996).

   c) Government Notice No 1205 published in the Government Gazette No 29438 dated 1 December 2006: Publication of List of No Fees Schools per province – Declaring No Fee Schools in 2007 for all nine provinces, made in terms of section 39(10) of the South African Schools Act, 1996 (Act No 84 of 1996).

3. The Minister of Transport

   a) Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Argentine Republic for the Co-ordination of heir Maritime and Aeronautical Search and Rescue Services, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.

   b) Explanatory Memorandum to the Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Argentine Republic for the Co-ordination of heir Maritime and Aeronautical Search and Rescue Services.

4. The Minister of Minerals and Energy

   a) Convention on the Physical Protection of Nuclear Material, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.

   b) Explanatory Memorandum to the Convention on the Physical Protection of Nuclear Material.

5. The Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry

   a) Government Notice No 1197 published in the Government Gazette No 29426 dated 28 November 2006: Prohibition in the making of fires in the open air in the districts of Clanwilliam, Piketberg, Ceres, Tulbagh, Worcester, Caledon, Paarl, Stellenbosch, Strand and Somerset West, made in terms of section 25(1) of the Forest Act, 1984 (Act No 122 of 1984).

   b) Government Notice No 1198 published in the Government Gazette No 29426 dated 28 November 2006: Prohibition in the making of fires in the open air in the districts of Caledon, Worcester, Robertson and Swellendam. (The Riviersonderend Mountain Range), made in terms of section 25(1) of the Forest Act, 1984 (Act No 122 of 1984).

   c) Government Notice No 1199 published in the Government Gazette No 29426 dated 28 November 2006: Prohibition in the making of fires in the Western Cape, made in terms of section 25(1) of the Forest Act, 1984 (Act No 122 of 1984).

   d) Government Notice No 1200 published in the Government Gazette No 29426 dated 28 November 2006: Prohibition in the making of fires in the open air in the districts of Swellendam, Montagu, Worcester and Robertson (The Western Langeberg Mountain range), made in terms of section 25(1) of the Forest Act, 1984 (Act No 122 of 1984).

   e) Government Notice No 991 published in the Government Gazette No 29277 dated 13 October 2006: Establishment of the eDikeni Water User Association in the Magisterial District of Victoria East, Province of the Eastern Cape, Water Management Number 12, made in terms of section 92(1) of the National Water Act, 1998 (Act No 36 of 1998).

   f) Government Notice No 998 published in the Government Gazette No 29277 dated 13 October 2006: Withdrawal of restrictions on the use of water for agricultural purposes from the Bronkhorstspruit River and its tributaries (Tertiary Catchments 820A, 820B, 820C, and 820D and the withdrawal of restrictions on the use of water for urban and industrial purpose from Bronkhorstspruit Dam and Village Dam[Premier Mine Dam]), made in terms of section 63 read with section 72 of the National Water Act, 1998 (Act No 36 of 1998).

   g) Government Notice No 999 published in the Government Gazette No 29277 dated 13 October 2006: Withdrawal of restrictions on the use of water for agricultural purposes in the Inkomati Water Management Area, made in terms of section 63 read with section 72 of the National Water Act, 1998 (Act No 36 of 1998).

   h) Government Notice No 857 published in the Government Gazette No 29154 dated 1 September 2006: Transformation of the Keurbos River Irrigation Board in the Magisterial District of George, Western Cape Province into Maalgate Water User Association, Water Management Area Number 16, Western Cape Province, made in terms of section 98(6) of the National Water Act, 1998 (Act No 36 of 1998).

   i) Government Notice No 897 published in the Government Gazette No 29062 dated 8 September 2006: Notice of List of Protected Tree Species, made in terms of 12(1)(d) of the National Forests Act, 1998 (Act No 84 of 1998).

   j) Government Notice No 900 published in the Government Gazette No 29205 dated 15 September 2006: Establishment of the Thukela Catchment Management Agency (Water Management Area Number 7) in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, made in terms of section 78(1) of the National Water Act, 1998 (Act No 36 of 1998).

                       MONDAY, 5 FEBRUARY 2007
   

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Assent by President in respect of Bills

(1)    Carriage By Air Amendment Bill [B 18 – 2006] – Act No 15 of 2006
     (assented to and signed by President on 14 December 2006)

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Finance

   (a) Protocol on Finance and Investment of the Southern African Development Community, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996. (b) Explanatory Memorandum to the Protocol on Finance and Investment of the Southern African Development Community.

   (c) Report and Financial Statements of the Financial Services Board on the Registrar of Collective Investment Schemes for the year ended 31 December 2005 [RP 94-2006].

   (d) Annual Financial Statements of the Corporation for Public Deposits for 2005-2006, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2005-2006.

   (e) Draft Regulations issued under Section 91A of the Income Tax Act, 1962 (Act No 58 of 1962), prescribing the circumstances under which the Commissioner may write off or comprise any amount of Tax, Duty, Levy, Charge, Interest, Penalty or other amount.

2. The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development

   (a) Report and Financial Statements of the Criminal Assets Recovery Account for 1999-2005, including the Report of the Auditor- General on the Financial Statements for 1999-2005 [RP 249-2006].

   (b) Report and Financial Statements of the Criminal Assets Recovery Account for 2005-2006, including the Report of the Auditor- General on the Financial Statements for 2005-2006 [RP 248-2006].

   (c) Report of the Master of the High Court of South Africa on Moneys in Trust kept in the Guardian’s Fund for 2002-2003, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Summary of Statements of Moneys in Trust kept in the Guardian’s Fund for 2002-2003.

   (d) Report of Monies in Trust for 2003-2004, including the Report of the Auditor-General issued in the absence of Financial Statements for the Monies in Trust for 2003-2004.

   (e) Report on Monies in Trust kept in the Guardian’s Fund for 2003- 2004, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Summary of Statements of Monies in Trust kept in the Guardian’s Fund for 2003-2004.

   (f) Report and Financial Statements of Monies in Trust for 2002- 2003, including the Report of the Auditor-General issued in the absence of Financial Statements for the Monies in Trust for 2002- 2003.

   (g) Report and Financial Statements of the Guardian’s Fund for 2005- 2006 including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2005-2006 [RP 263-2006].

   (h) Proclamation No R46 published in Government Gazette No 29343 dated 31 October 2006: Commencement of certain sections of the Maintenance Act, 1998 (Act No 99 of 1998).

   i) Government Notice No R1099 published in Government Gazette No 29347 dated 3 November 2006: Amendment of Regulations relating to Maintenance, made in terms of section 44 of the Maintenance Act, 1998 (Act No 99 of 1998).

3. The Minister of Arts and Culture

   (a) Report and Financial Statements of the Pan South African Language Board (PANSALB) 2005-2006, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2005-2006 [RP 264-2006].

National Council of Provinces

1. The Chairperson

   (a) Written statement submitted in terms of section 106(3) of the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act, 2000 (Act No 32 of 2000): Tsantsabane Municipality by the Northern Cape MEC for Housing and Local Government.

    Appointment of 11 Temporary Workers of Tsantsabane Local
    Municipality.
   

   (b) Written statement submitted in terms of section 106(3) of the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act, 2000 (Act No 32 of 2000): Oudtshoorn Municipality by the Western Cape Minister of Local Government and Housing.

    Investigation into allegations of mal-administration, non-
    compliance with statutory obligations and serious malpractices.
    Referred to the Select Committee on Local Government and
    Administration.
   

   (c) The Acting President of the Republic submitted the following letter dated 20 December 2006 to the Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces informing Members of the Council of the employment of the South African National Defence Force in Burundi:

EMPLOYMENT OF THE SOUTH AFRICAN NATIONAL DEFENCE FORCE IN BURUNDI FOR SERVICE IN THE FULFILMENT OF THE INTERNATIONAL OBLIGATIONS OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA TOWARDS THE AFRICAN UNION

This serves to inform the National Council of Provinces that I have authorised the employment of the South African National Defence Force (SANDF) personnel to Burundi, in fulfilment of the international obligations of the Republic of South Africa towards the African Union as part of the African Union Special Task Force in Burundi. The South African National Defence personnel will assist in providing security to leaders and combatants of the Palipehutu-FNL.

This employment was authorised in accordance with the provisions of section 201(2)(c) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1996, read with section 93 of the Defence Act, 2002 (Act No 42 of 2002).

A total of 11000 members are employed in Burundi as from 20 December 2006 to 31 July 2007 to provide security to leaders and combatants of the Palipehutu-FNL.

The total estimated cost to be borne by the government of the Republic of South Africa for the deployment will be R 86, 523, 167 for the financial year 2006 / 2007 and R 101, 446, 938 for the financial year 2007 / 2008. The Department of Defence will be responsible for the cost of the deployment.

I will communicate this report to the members of the National Assembly and the Chairperson of the Joint Standing Committee on Defence, and wish to request that you bring the contents hereof to the attention of the National Council of Provinces.

Regards

P MLAMBO-NGCUKA ACTING PRESIDENT

                      THURSDAY, 8 FEBRUARY 2007

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Assent by President in respect of Bills

 (1)    Revenue Laws Amendment Bill [B 33 – 2006] – Act No 20 of 2006
     (assented to and signed by President on 3 February 2007)

  (2)   Revenue Laws Second Amendment Bill [B 34 – 2006] – Act No 21 of
     2006 (assented to and signed by President on 5 February 2007)

1. Draft Bills submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159

   1) Housing Consumers Protection Measures Amendment Bill, 2007, submitted by the Minister of Housing. Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Housing and the Select Committee on Public Services.

2. Message from President

The Speaker and the Chairperson received the following message, dated 5
February 2007, from the President, calling a Joint Sitting of the
National Assembly and the National Council of Provinces: [pic]

1. Membership of Committees

   (1) The following changes have been made to the membership of Joint Committees:

   Budget

   Appointed: Dambuza, Ms N; Fubbs, Ms J L; Mkongi, Mr B M (Alt); Mnguni, Mr B A (Alt); Schippers, Mr J (Alt); Schneemann, Mr G D

   Discharged: Gumede, Mr D M; Mahomed, Ms F

   Constitutional Review

   Appointed: Chohan-Khota, Ms F I (Alt)

   Defence

   Appointed: Daniels, Ms P; Fihla, Mr N B (Alt); Johnson, Ms C B (Alt); Koornhof, Dr G W (Alt); Monareng, Mr O E (Alt); Ngcobo, Mr N W; Ntuli, Mr S B (Alt); Phungula, Mr J P (Alt); Schippers, Mr J (Alt); Seadimo, Ms D M; Tolo, Bishop L J (Alt); Van Wyk, Ms A (Alt)

   Discharged: Cele, Mr M A; Sotyu, Ms M M

   Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Children, Youth & Disabled Persons

   Appointed: Gcwabaza, Mr N E (Alt); Madella, Mr A F; Mohlaloga, Mr M R; Molefe, Mr C T (Alt); Reid, Mr L R R (Alt)

   Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Women

   Appointed: Direko, Ms I W; Mabena, Mr D C (Alt); Meruti, Ms M V (Alt); Morobi, Ms D M; Ntuli, Ms B M (Alt); Nxumalo, Ms M

   Discharged: Tshwete, Ms P

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Finance

(a)     Report and Financial Statements of the Public Accountants’ and
     Auditors’ Board for the 15-month period ending 31 March 2006,
     including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial
     Statements for the 15-month period ending 31 March 2006.



(b)     Report and Financial Statements of the Executive Officer of the
     Financial Services Board on the Road Accident Fund for 2004-2005.


(c)     General Notice No 59 published in Government Gazette No 29556
     dated 24 January 2007: Draft Regulations issued under section 13,
     tabled in terms of section 13(3) of the Small Business Tax Amnesty
     and Amendment of Taxation Laws Act, 2006 (Act No 6 of 2006).

1. The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development

(a)     Proclamation No R49 published in Government Gazette No 29456
     dated 7 December 2007: Amendment of Proclamation, in terms of the
     Special Investigating Units and Special Tribunals Act, 1996 (Act No
     74 of 1996).

(b)     Proclamation No R50 published in Government Gazette No 29456
     dated 7 December 2007: Referral of matter to existing Special
     Investigating Unit and Special Tribunal, in terms of the Special
     Investigating Units and Special Tribunals Act, 1996 (Act No 74 of
     1996).

(c)     Government Notice No R990 published in Government Gazette No
     29278 dated 13 October 2007: Regulations regarding the Promotion of
     Access to Information, made in terms of the Promotion of Access to
     Information Act, 1996 (Act No 2 of 2000).

1. The Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry

(a)     Report and Financial Statements of Bloem Water for the year
     ended 2006, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the
     Financial Statements for the year ended June 2006.

(b)     Report and Financial Statements of Botshelo Water for the year
     ended 2006, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the
     Financial Statements for the year ended June 2006.


(c)     Report and Financial Statements of Lepelle Northern Water for
     the year ended 2006, including the Report of the Independent
     Auditors on the Financial Statements for the year ended June 2006.



(d)     Report and Financial Statements of Overberg Water for the year
     ended 2006, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the
     Financial Statements for the year ended June 2006.


                      MONDAY, 12 FEBRUARY 2007

TABLINGS National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development

 a) Report and Financial Statements of Monies in Trust for 2004-2005,
    including the Report of the Auditor-General issued in the absence
    of Financial Statements for the Monies in Trust for 2004-2005 [RP
    255-2006].

1. The Minister of Trade and Industry

 (a)    Report and Financial Statements of the Support Programme for
     Industrial Innovation (SPII) for 2005-2006, including the Reports
     of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2005-
     2006.


 (b)    Annual Report of The Office of the Consumer Protection for 2005-
     2006.

National Council of Provinces

1. Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs

   MEMORANDUM ON PROPOSED MANDATING PROCEDURES OF PROVINCES BILL, IN TERMS OF COUNCIL RULE 182(1)

   INTRODUCTION

   In terms of section 65(2) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1996, an Act of Parliament enacted in accordance with the procedure established by either subsection (1) or subsection (2) of section 76 must provide for a uniform procedure in terms of which provincial legislatures confer authority on their delegations to cast votes on their behalf.

   Item 21(5) of Schedule 6 to the Constitution provides that until the Act of Parliament referred to in section 65(2) of the Constitution is enacted, each provincial legislature may determine its procedure in terms of which authority is conferred on its delegation to cast votes on its behalf in the National Council of Provinces.

   As legislation envisaged in section 65(2) of the Constitution has not yet been enacted, there is no uniformity on how provincial legislatures confer authority on their delegations to cast votes on their behalf.

   Provincial legislatures, having invoked the provisions of item 21(5) of Schedule 6 to the Constitution, had in their respective Standing Rules set out procedures in which authority is conferred on the delegation to cast votes on their behalf.

   OBJECTS OF THE BILL

   The Bill seeks to provide a uniform procedure in terms of which provincial legislatures confer authority on their delegations to cast votes on their behalf in the National Council of Provinces.

   FINANCIAL IMPLICATIONS FOR THE NCOP

   The following financial implications are anticipated: -A workshop for the implementation of the Act will take place and it is expected that Provincial Legislatures, SALGA and any other stakeholders will attend the workshop. The estimated cost for the workshop is R120.000.00 (One hundred and twenty thousand rands).

                     WEDNESDAY, 14 FEBRUARY 2007
   

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Bill to be referred to Mediation Committee

(1)    Bill, as amended by National Council of Provinces, and rejected
     by National Assembly on 13 February 2007, to be referred to
     Mediation Committee in terms of Joint Rule 186 (2)(b):


    (a)      Foodstuffs, Cosmetics and Disinfectants Amendment Bill
         [B 35D–2005] (National Assembly – sec 76)

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Council of Provinces

1. Report of the Select Committee on Labour and Public Enterprises on the Transnet Pension Fund Amendment Bill [B 30B – 2006], dated 13 February 2007: The Select Committee on Labour and Public Enterprises, having considered the subject of the Transnet Pension Fund Amendment Bill [B 30B- 2006] (National Assembly – sec 75), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

                  THURSDAY, 15 FEBRUARY 2007
   

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Introduction of Bill

 (1)    The Minister of Transport


     (a)     Convention on International Interests in Mobile Equipment
          Bill [B 1 – 2007] (National Assembly – proposed sec 75)
          [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior notice of its
          introduction published in Government Gazette No 29118 of 10
          August 2006.]


     Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on Transport
     of the National Assembly, as well as referral to the Joint Tagging
     Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint Rule 160.
     In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of
     the Bill may be submitted to the JTM within three parliamentary
     working days.

                      MONDAY, 19 FEBRUARY 2007

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Sport and Recreation

   Report and Financial Statements of Boxing South Africa for 2005-2006, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2005-2006.

CREDA PLEASE INSERT REPORT- Insert T070219E-insert – PAGES 130-149

                      TUESDAY, 20 FEBRUARY 2007

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Classification of Bill by Joint Tagging Mechanism

 (1)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism, on 19 February 2007 in terms of
     Joint Rule 160(6)(b), classified the following Bill as a section
     75 Bill:


     (a)     South African Airways Bill [B 35 – 2006] (National
          Assembly – sec 75).