TUESDAY, 20 MARCH 2007 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
                                ____

The Council met at 14:00.

The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

                            ANNOUNCEMENT

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): I hereby wish to welcome all the Ministers and Deputy Ministers present in the House today. Please do feel welcome.

I have a request from the Minister of Education that she would like to be the first to respond to her questions due to other commitments. Thereafter we shall follow the questions as printed on the Order Paper.

                        MOTION OF CONDOLENCE

                     (The late Mr Wenchong Chen)

SOSISWEBHU WEMKHANDLU WEMAPROVINSI: Ngiyabonga, Sekela laMgcinisihlalo. Ngiphakamisa lesishukumiso lesingakabikwa ngaphambili:

Kutsi leNdlu –

1) ivakalisa buhlungu bayo kanye nemndeni weliLunga laleNdlu, umhlon Su
   Huei Chen, ngekusishiya kweyise longu-Wenchong Chen lotawufihlwa
   ngalemphelasontfo lelandzelako, mhla tingu 24 March 2007;


2) icaphela nekutsi umngcwabo utawusukela kaDoves Funeral Parlour, 10
   Jorissen Street, eBraamfontein ngelihora lemfica ekuseni;


3) inaka nekutsi kutabe kungumsebenti wemndeni bese kutsi umphakatsi
   uvumeleke kutsi ube mdzibi munye nemndeni kusukela ngelihora
   lelishumi kuze kushaye lihora leli-11;


4) itsi-ke kumndeni wakaChen, netihlobo tabo kanye nalabasedvutane nabo,
   abatfole kucina eGameni leNkhosi kulesikhatsi lesimatima kangaka
   etimphilweni tabo.

Ngiyabonga. (Translation of Siswati motion of condolence follows.) [The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Thank you, Deputy Chairperson. I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) conveys its sadness at the death of the father of a member of this House, Ms Su Huei Chen, Mr Wenchong Chen, who will be buried this weekend, on 24 March 2007;

(2) notes that the funeral will take place at Doves Funeral Parlour, at 10 Jorissen Street, Braamfontein, at 9:00 am;

(3) further takes note that this will be a family affair until 10:00 am, when the community will be allowed to join until 11:00 am;

(4) expresses our sympathy to the Chen family, relatives and close friends and wishes them peace in the name of the Lord during these sad times in their lives.]

Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Thank you, hon Chief Whip. Is there any objection to the motion?

Mr D A WORTH: Madam Chairperson, I am sorry to rise on that motion, but the Chief Whip has got it wrong; it’s not Bloemfontein but Braamfontein, Johannesburg. I think the message got to him incorrectly.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Deputy Chairperson, I said Braamfontein.

Mr D A WORTH: You said Bloemfontein!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Thank you. That’s enough. Is there any objection to the motion?

HON MEMBERS: No!

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

         EXTENSION OF THE PROCLAMATION PERIOD IN THE GAZETTE

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, now I understand that the interpretation changed Braamfontein to Bloemfontein. [Laughter.]

Deputy Chairperson, I move that the Council gives its consent that the President, by proclamation in the Gazette, extend the period of operation of sections 51 and 52 of the Criminal Law Amendment Act, Act 105 of 1997, in terms of section 53 (2) of the said Act for a further period of two years, with effect from 1 May 2007. Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Thank you, Chief Whip. As there is no speakers’ list we shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour or against or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Mr D G MKONO: Siyaxhasa. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Free State?

Mr c j Van Rooyen: Ondersteun. [Supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Gauteng?

Ms N M MADLALA-MAGUBANE: We support.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI: Elethu. [Supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Limpopo?

Ms H F MATLANYANE: Ondersteun. [Supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Mpumalanga?

Mr B J TOLO: We agree.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Northern Cape?

Mr m a sulliman: Ondersteun. [Supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): North West?

Rev P MOATSHE: Re ya e amogela. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Western Cape?

Mr F ADAMS: Ondersteun. [Supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): The number of provinces who voted in favour is nine. I therefore declare the motion agreed to in terms of section 65 of the Constitution.

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY SOCIAL SERVICES AND GOVERNANCE Cluster 2

MINISTERS:

   Compensation for schools using own resources to employ teachers

1. Ms J F Terblanche asked the Minister of Education:

   (1) Whether, in light of the fact that some schools use their own resources in order to employ extra teachers, she has considered a policy to compensate such schools with fee exemptions; if so, what are the relevant details; if not, why not;

   (2) whether any steps are being taken to ensure that these schools are not negatively affected; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what steps? C533E

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Chairperson, in response to part (1) of Question 19 in part 1, I respond as follows: I have directed the Department of Education to develop a draft policy that would seek to support schools that encourage the access of the poor. I refer in this way to schools that fall within those quintiles that currently do not enjoy the status of nonfee- paying schools.

However, there are such schools which enrol high proportions of nonfee- paying learners and that may from time to time require support from the state. I anticipate that this policy would be ready for public consultation by September.

With respect to the second part of the question, the intention of a no-fee school is to ensure that, beginning with our poorest parents – parents who will be relieved of paying school fees – we began with our poorest quintiles last year. Of course, we have addressed this policy and we seek to ensure that we do not compromise in any way the adequacy of school funding.

So, we would hope that we can begin moving towards a situation where no child whose parents find it difficult to pay financial costs for education is denied their constitutional right. Current fee-paying schools need to ensure that they set school fees at levels that are affordable to the communities that they serve. It is important for us to state that it is not us as government who determine the fee levels for fee-paying schools. It is in fact parents, in a properly constituted parent meeting, that should, as a majority, agree to the fee levels of a particular school.

I would like parents in such meetings to ask that an itemised budget is provided for them so that they ensure that the fees they pay are not being utilised for frills, but are actually serving to enhance the educational opportunity of their children. Thank you. Ms J F TERBLANCHE: Deputy Chair, I would just like to ask whether the Minister is aware of any instances where schools that have been declared fee-free have not had money allocated to them by provinces yet, and are therefore left without income. If so, were steps taken to resolve the problem?

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Chairperson, yes, such instances, as I have been informed by my department, have arisen. In my view it is both a failure of the provinces to act on agreements that we reached in the Council of Education Ministers, and, secondly, as the national department we haven’t put the proper monitoring procedures in place.

However, we have to indicate that provinces freely began the implementation of the policy in 2007 and therefore it was a small number - 20% of schools

• that had been identified.

The third point that one must make is of course that the budgets that are provided to schools are for a full financial year and not for a calendar year. So, hon member, a school should not be running out of money this December. Funding should be available until the end of the financial year for all public institutions, which is 31 March.

 Steps to improve school performance in North West and Eastern Cape
                      Departments of Education 20.   Ms D Robinson asked the Minister of Education:

  Whether, in light of the recent statements by the North West and
  Eastern Cape Departments of Education (details furnished), she has had
  any discussions with these departments in order to determine the (a)
  reasons for these low pass rates and (b) steps that can be taken to
  improve school performance; if not, why not; if so, what were the
  outcomes of the discussions? C534E

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Chairperson, with respect to question 20, the reply is as follows. I’m asked, first of all, what the reasons are for the low pass rate. Well - this is with respect to the North West and Eastern Cape provinces - there was a 4% increase in the North West pass rate in

1. However, it is my view and that of the MEC in the North West province that there remains much room for improvement.

In January, the department of the North West province held a two-day indaba reflecting on the performance of their Grade 12 students, and reviewing departmental strategies which had strangely enough led to an improvement, but one that is still regarded as not good enough.

The department adopted a number of strategies, one of which importantly focuses on much closer monitoring and support for underperforming schools; another focuses on extending the learner participation programme, and there is a leadership mentoring programme for the leadership of schools in the province.

The Eastern Cape was also one of the provinces in which we had an improvement, and again, although the province is one of the weaker provinces in terms of the education family, we still see some progress. I did not, as a colleague, members would be aware, approve of the recent decision by the province to promote learners who had failed the Grade 11 exams. I have made my position perfectly clear on the support that these learners must get if they are to succeed in their matric year as the department, I believe, seems to anticipate.

I have not been given any information as to the new strategies for matric improvement in the Eastern Cape. However, we have had the experience, as the department, of working very closely in the national intervention with the Eastern Cape department. There is a new head of department, a new member of the executive council in place in that province, and I have been assured that we will see radical improvement in the educational performance of that department.

As for part (b) of the question, I do place great store on the importance of principals in improving schools. The department has developed an entry qualification, as I have indicated to members before, for school principals. We will begin implementing that particular programme this year.

The programme has a number of modules dealing with school management matters. One of these modules focuses on failing principals, essentially those who are not succeeding in academic leadership of their schools. It allows for redeployment of such persons within the education system. We have seen this being done in a very positive way in Delmas in Mpumalanga, where we have seen massive improvement in underperforming schools.

Non-performing principals would be redeployed if they do not improve after being taken through a support programme. We have of course specified with them performance targets that we believe they must achieve. We will continue working closely with them, but we cannot allow a situation where there is constant mediocrity and underperformance. It is important that we, as the department, act decisively in such situations and rescue our children from mediocrity and underperformance.

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: The Minister touched on performance targets. I would just like to know, with regard to schools that have zero matric pass rates, if specific requirements have been set for this year and what the consequences will be if those requirements have not been met?

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Each province is working on a strategy. I have indicated that we must all seek to achieve a minimum of 70%, both nationally and within our schools. I think that an average performance would be 50%. I think below that it is really unacceptable. It is at that point that, really, we should begin to take fairly vigorous action as the various departments.

We are working on a school-to-school basis because the reasons might not merely lie in the performance. There are other factors, for example we might not have sufficient numbers of teachers, and textbooks might not have reached the schools. We have such situations today - those unacceptable gaps in the administrative performance by provincial departments of education, and the absence of support by district offices. These need to be addressed by our senior administrators so that indeed we support our schools to succeed.

Policies to encourage use of Further Education and Training institutions as preferred suppliers for training

1. Mr C J van Rooyen asked the Minister of Education:

   Whether her department has developed any policies to encourage (a) national and (b) provincial departments to consider Further Education and Training (FET) institutions as their preferred suppliers for training; if not, why not; if so, what are the advantages to the (i) FET, (ii) national and (iii) provincial departments? C538E

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Thank you, Chairperson. Firstly, we have not developed any specific policy to encourage FET colleges to be utilised as preferred suppliers for training. However, our provincial and national departments do use colleges as their preferred suppliers from time to time. For example, they send their staff to attend our office administration courses and financial management courses and the tourism department has on occasion used the tourism programmes for training their staff.

The advantage of the colleges for providing training to national and provincial government departments, and particularly for offering workplace opportunities within provincial and national departments, is that our students are then guaranteed workplace opportunities.

All members would be aware of the difficulties we often have in that we can do the theoretical training, but the practical workplace experience is not always available. If this partnership can develop, then our students will have the opportunity for workplace training. Moreover, if it is government departments that use our FET colleges, they are then, in partnership, able to specify the nature and the content of training that they would wish to receive.

The FET colleges are spread out throughout the country in over 140 campuses. I have provided the NCOP with a list of the various and many programmes of the FET colleges which can be accessed at the various colleges and be accessed by members of this House, should they wish to do some of our very exciting programmes. I have also provided the secretary with a list of names and addresses and specific particulars of 50 colleges throughout the country.

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Question 42 is from the hon … That is Question 42 I have. Are we on Question 23?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): Yes, Question 23.

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I don’t have a Question 23.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): Mr C J van Rooyen is to ask the Minister.

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Let me see.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): Hon Van Rooyen!

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN: Chairperson, that question was actually for a written reply. I don’t know how it … [Interjections.]

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I actually responded to that question by way of a written reply.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): Sorry, Minister. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I was a little surprised to see it appearing as a question for oral reply. I have provided the hon member with all the up- to-date data and I have provided him with statistics of various institutions, the equity targets and whether or not and how they have been met. So, I don’t know whether the hon member wishes me to repeat what I wrote – but my answer is as I wrote it. [Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): Thank you, hon Minister. We apologise for that.

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): We then ask you to continue with Question 42.

Introduction of uniform standards and norms for regulating tuition fees

1. Mr T S Setona asked the Minister of Education: What progress has been made with regard to introducing uniform standards and norms for regulating tuition fees in higher institutions of learning? C559E

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Thank you, Chairperson. I proceed therefore to Question 42 from the hon Setona concerning the introduction of uniform standards and norms for regulating tuition fees in higher institutions of learning.

I do remain concerned, as I have said in the National Assembly – the Other House where a similar question was posed - at the rate by which the fees of some of our universities are increasing. I have encouraged our vice chancellors, through their representative body, Hesa, or Higher Education South Africa, to set fee increases that are moderate and reasonable and to really consider the rationale for the kinds of increases we’ve seen in the past few years. However, I must state again that it is the responsibility, legally, of higher education institutions to determine their own tuition fees. Therefore, currently no uniform norms and standards are contemplated by me.

What we have done, as members would be aware following the Budget Speech by the Minister of Finance, is to significantly improve our funding to higher education, given that there had been a significant gap between their needs and the resources that we were providing through the national subsidy. The change we’ve had of greatly improved financing will, I hope, influence consideration in a positive manner of the need to really try and control the level of increases. But, we don’t anticipate regulating at this time.

Abolition of multigrade schools, and model for the provisioning of teachers to such schools

1. Mr B J Tolo asked the Minister of Education:

   (1) Whether she intends abolishing multigrade schools; if so, what are the relevant details; if not,

   (2) whether a different model for the provisioning of teachers to these schools will be applied; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details? C561E

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: This is a question from the hon Tolo concerning multigrade schools and whether we intend abolishing them and applying a model for provisioning of teachers to these schools - and I would think other schools are being contemplated. With respect to abolishing such schools, my answer is: No, I don’t intend to do so at this time, they are needed in the areas where they are located.

With respect to the post provisioning model, currently I believe that the model does try to give credence and recognition to multigrade teaching, which often takes place in very small schools - sometimes with five, seven or eight children - and it is therefore difficult for us to justify providing more than one teacher.

The duty of the education departments is to ensure that they can in fact provide sufficient numbers of teachers to address the broad needs of children in such schools, but their primary duty is to ensure that we keep the ratios down in very large schools, which we have a great number of, in order to ensure that the educator-learner ratios are not excessive. We are concerned about the larger schools, but in the multigrades scenario we do, where we have resources, try to ensure that we provide adequate numbers of teachers.

I am looking at revising the post provisioning norms. I am not happy with the way the norms work. They were, of course, constructed in an era in which we didn’t have a national curriculum; so we didn’t have clear national learning areas, and we didn’t have clear subject domains. We now do; we have a national curriculum in operation from Grade 1 to Grade 11, and from next year it will be in the whole school system. Therefore, I think the time has come to address the revision of the post provisioning norms, and members will be alerted once we have formulated our policy.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): We thank the Minister for her valuable information given to the House. We know that she has to leave now because of other commitments. Hon Minister, you are relieved. Thank you.

     Development and alienation of plot in Bethlehem, Free State

1. Mr D A Worth asked the Minister for Provincial and Local Government:

   (1) Whether a certain plot (details furnished) in Bethlehem in the Free State will be developed; if so, (a) what (i) is the nature of and (ii) amount budgeted for this development and (b) when will the development be completed; if not,

   (2) Whether it will be alienated; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details? C531E

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Deputy Chair, the answer to question 17 is as follows. The responsibility for control over the development of the plot referred to falls outside the responsibilities assigned by law to the Department of Provincial and Local Government and our Ministry. Section 92 of our Constitution provides that the only questions the Minister should respond to are those falling within the scope of the powers and functions assigned by law to the Deputy President and the Ministry.

Consequently, the hon member is advised to redirect the question to the appropriate authorities.

  Measures to protect health staff against extremely drug-resistant
                            tuberculosis 18.   Mr A Watson asked the Minister of Health:


  Whether any measures have been taken to protect health staff in public
  hospitals against extremely drug-resistant tuberculosis (XDR TB)
  infection; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what
  measures?                                          C532E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Chairperson and members, the answer is as follows. A number of measures have been taken to protect health staff against extreme drug-resistant TB infection. Some of these are not specific to staff only, but are generally meant to avoid infection of both patients and staff.

All patients who have been identified as having multidrug-resistant TB and extreme drug-resistant TB are being kept in separate isolated wards. In those wards, only staff who are experienced in handling TB and extreme drug- resistant TB are allowed to work there. General infection-control measures such as proper ventilation, extractor fans and ultraviolet gamma radiation lights are being put in place.

Staff are being provided with personal protection equipment such as N95 respiratory masks. This applies to all staff who work in high-risk areas, such as outpatient department examination rooms and isolation wards for TB patients. Thank you.

Mr A WATSON: I would like to thank the Deputy Minister for that answer. I am very glad to hear that these systems have been put in place. I would like to ask the Deputy Minister: We all know that systems only stand and fall by the way they are implemented and controlled; is anyone specifically being tasked at the various institutions to ensure that the systems are properly working and that the equipment issued to staff is being used?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Thank you, hon member, for your concern. I must state once again that the Minister of Health has instituted a plan which is called the “TB Crisis Plan”. This plan identifies certain parts of our country where there is a particular risk in terms of an increase in TB cases.

In relation to the outbreak of extreme drug-resistant TB, extraordinary measures are being taken in support of our programme in conjunction with the WHO. Right now, we are fine-tuning our activities and indeed we are watching this very closely as the national Ministry of Health.

A week ago, the Acting Minister was being briefed about what is happening in each and every one of those areas that have reported an increase in the number of extreme drug-resistant TB cases. We are keeping a regular record of what is happening. Are there any new cases? Are they responding to treatment? Are the patients sticking to treatment? This is an issue that is on the radar screen and we are making sure that we are doing everything to support all the hospitals to make sure that they put these plans in place and implement them.

  Average length of short-term expanded public works projects, and
    effectiveness thereof iro skills development and job creation

1. Ms D Robinson asked the Minister of Social Development:

   (1) What is the average length of the short-term expanded public works projects mentioned in his recent interview with a certain newspaper on 17 February 2007 (copy furnished);

   (2) whether these projects are effective with regard to (a) skills development and (b) job creation in the long term; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? C535E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Thank you, Chairperson. The reply is as follows. With regard to the first part of the question, the average duration of work opportunities in the social sector of the Expanded Public Works Programme, or EPWP, is between 18 and 24 months. This includes a period of training towards a National Qualifications Framework certificate.

With regard to 2(a), currently the EPWP in the social sector has focused on early childhood development and home community-based care as areas in great need of service provision. The enforcement of quality standards through accreditation was not strictly applied before. This is now mandatory within the EPWP, and includes other quality assurance measures. Thus, the work opportunity also includes a learning period required for someone in the EPWP to emerge with an accredited training qualification aligned to the National Qualifications Framework. The short learning period is for skills training that does not result in a qualification. During the period of training the learners are paid stipends. Caregivers and early childhood development workers can continue learning and training to become nurses and teachers.

With regard to the second part of the question, which is about job creation in the long term, a process is under way to identify some EPWP jobs that could be made into permanent work opportunities, such as jobs for caregivers and early childhood development workers.

The social sector is one of the few EPWP work sectors that hold the potential to create sustainable work opportunities. Several studies undertaken by or on behalf of the sector attest to this potential. But, as I’ve said, the process is still under way to identify which of these jobs could become permanent work opportunities.

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: Thank you, Chairperson. While job creation is intended in the long run and the process is still under way, I would like to know in the meantime: Has the Minister presented the basic income grant as an alternative to the short-term expanded public works projects to any Cabinet meetings? And what have been the consequences of such presentations, because I think it could assist when people have actually done the skills courses and there are no jobs for them available at present if in the meantime, while they are waiting for job opportunities to open, they get basic income grants?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Madam Chairperson, the answer is: No.

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: Madam Chairperson, if the answer is no, I would like to know why. If they can basically support people who have no other income with the basic income grant and help them live above the breadline, why hasn’t it been presented to Cabinet?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Madam Chair, I think the hon member is entitled to her opinion. But that remains an opinion. The basic income grant is something that has not been considered by Cabinet at this stage. It doesn’t mean that it won’t be considered at any future stage, but as she herself has heard in the state of the nation address, there is a whole range of options that are being investigated for people with no income and even for people with income.

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: Madam Chair, I know I am entitled to my own opinion but I would like the Minister to ask why it wasn’t addressed. I know there are different things that the President has addressed in his state of the nation address, but why didn’t this department address the issue of the basic income grant?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Madam Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order: From my reading of the initial question, it does appear that the question of the basic income grant is a completely new question. The hon member has no right to present it as completely independent and separate from the initial one. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Madam Chairperson, I would agree with the hon member, but I really don’t see the point of a member of the opposition asking why we are not addressing something when in fact, as I said, we are addressing a range of issues. People are receiving grants. Government as a whole is not at this stage intending to give everybody a basic income grant, but there is a whole package of services.

So, we are opting for something, and I think that as government it is within our rights to opt for certain policy options and not for others. Therefore, it doesn’t make sense to me that a member of the opposition is asking why we haven’t done so. The question is no, we haven’t done so. In fact, we have considered it and we have opted for a different set of policy options. It doesn’t mean that we won’t do so in the future. So, I think that that is the answer. She is not going to get more than that. Thank you.

   Resolution of problems between Bi-Water and Bushbuckridge Water

1. Kgoshi M L Mokoena asked the Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry:

   Whether the problems between Bi-Water and Bushbuckridge Water in Mbombela, Mpumalanga, have been resolved; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? C541E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Hon Chairperson, I’ve been asked to answer this question. I would also just appeal to the members that since the Department of Social Development is not an expert on water affairs, it would be difficult for me to answer supplementary questions.

The reply to the question is as follows. The dispute is not between Bi- Water and Bushbuckridge Water. It is rather between Bushbuckridge Water Board and Mbombela Local Municipality, the latter being the water services authority in the area, and it relates to the termination of a contract of water services provision that existed between Bushbuckridge Water and Mbombela Local Municipality.

Bushbuckridge Water Board took the matter to court and the court ordered that the status quo be maintained and effectively instructed the parties to find a solution outside of court.

Bushbuckridge Water Board is continuing to deliver water services in the area.

Since then the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry has met with the parties more than once and has been playing a mediation role with a view to finding an amicable solution. Thank you.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, as a disciplined member of this House, I would adhere to the request by my hon Minister that I must not shoot any follow-up questions because she might not be able to go any further in response to those follow-up questions. But I would give notice that I will submit the question in another form. I know that the Minister would be there to respond to those questions because there would be a lot in the answer. Thank you very much.

Municipalities in Mpumalanga without permanent Chief Financial Officers

1. Ms F Nyanda asked the Minister for Provincial and Local Government:

   (a) How many municipalities in Mpumalanga (i) are without a Chief Financial Officer (CFO) and (ii) have acting CFOs and (b) when will permanent CFOs be appointed? C542E

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: The answer to Question 25 is that this Question was published in the Internal Question Paper on 12 March 2007. Thus far, the department has been given very little time to procure the required information.

However, all the municipalities in Mpumalanga have been requested to provide us with updated information on this matter. Upon receipt of the information, it will be passed on to the hon member. Thank you.

Mr Z C NTULI: Hon Deputy Minister, we are having a problem, generally, in the country with the chief financial officers, or CFOs. We want to find out why we have so many acting chief financial officers. Can we have just one reason why whenever we go to these municipalities we find that there is a different person who is acting? Can we find out what the core reason is? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: As I said towards the end of my reply, as soon as we have this information we will forward it to the hon member. What is taking place at local government level is that there is a lack of capacity in terms of particularly senior management, and that is why we actually embarked on Project Consolidate to try and rectify the scenario at local government level.

What we are also saying is that it is not only the chief executive officers

• CEOs - but we have municipal managers who are also acting and we are trying very hard as provincial and local government to rectify all those situations. As I said earlier on, we will forward the information as soon as it is available to the hon member.

Mr A WATSON: Is the Deputy Minister telling us that despite the fact that there should be regular management meetings - interactions between the Minister and the MECs - her department does not, from time to time, become aware of the situation at municipalities with regard to senior staff, thereby not being able to reply to that question?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: I’ll accept the advice. Thank you.

Mr A WATSON: No, I object. That was not an answer. The Minister is treating this House with absolute contempt. I’ll ask the question and you’ll allow the question. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Hon Watson, can I call you to order, please! She has answered … [Interjections.]

I am in the Chair. Thank you, Mr Krumbock!

Mr A WATSON: On a point of order: The Minister didn’t answer. She said she would accept my advice. I didn’t give her any advice. I am not paid to give her advice. I’m paid to do oversight.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Hon Watson, will you please sit down! The Minister has answered your question. Her answer was whether she’ll take your advice or not. [Interjections.]

Mr Krumbock, I’m not going to allow you to get into that. Thank you very much. Will you please sit down? Will you please sit down!

Mr G R KRUMBOCK: On a point of order: The Minister has not answered the question. You are misdirecting yourself. Is there no democracy in this House?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Will you please sit down for the last time?

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: On a point of order: The member in this House is allowed, according to the Rules, to raise a point of order and you’ve just told the member from the DA to sit down and he couldn’t raise a point of order, and that is not … [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): He has already raised his point of order, and I’m not going to argue with you again. Will you please sit down? I think I’m in the Chair. Thank you very much. [Interjections.]

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: I know that you are the Chairperson. But who is allowed to rise on a point of order?

Review of Government’s position on allowing officials to participate in Bargaining Council

1. Mr A J L Moseki asked the Minister for the Public Service and Administration:

   Whether the Government will review its position to allow officials from departments such as the Department of Correctional Services to participate in the Bargaining Council; if not, why not; if so, when? C543E The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson and members of this House, in relation to the particular question, I would like to indicate that there are different levels and structures of bargaining in the Public Service.

At the national level is the Public Service Co-ordinating Bargaining Council. At the sectoral level, we have the Education Labour Relations Council, the Safety and Security Bargaining Council, the Public Health and Welfare Sector Bargaining Council, and the General Public Service Sector Bargaining Council.

Then, at a third level, which is the departmental level, we have departmental chambers. There is a chamber for each national department, and each province. At a national level, the employer team is led by the Department of Public Service and Administration, and this team is assisted by representatives from all provinces, from national departments representing various sectors and from other national departments in terms of numbers such as Correctional Services and the SA National Defence Force.

At a sectoral level, there is of course, according to the various sectors, the employer side being led by the relevant national department.

As far as the National Bargaining Chamber is concerned, at that level, as I indicated earlier, we lead the negotiations – that’s the Department of Public Service and Administration – with representatives from provinces and the two other departments that are indicated.

It would not be feasible or practical to include representatives from all departments in the employer’s negotiating teams either in the PSCBC or the GPSSBC, as it would entail negotiating teams in excess of 100 representatives. Thanks.

Mr A J L MOSEKI: Chairperson, I thank the Minister for that response. I just want to indicate that, last November, we were doing oversight work in the North West province and our interaction with officials from that department is referred to in the question. A complaint or grievance that we came across was that these officials feel that they have been misplaced in terms of the Bargaining Council. That’s what they said to us as a committee. They are treated like any other civil servants in the government.

Their feeling is that they should be placed in the relevant bargaining council, which is the Safety and Security Bargaining Council. This is the view that they expressed. We probed further as they raised that matter. They said that one of the reasons that they are losing so many officials in that department is because they are not placed in the relevant bargaining council. It became a concern to the committee.

I heard the response that you gave. Will the Minister, at a national level, consider that the Correctional Services officials should be placed in the relevant bargaining council? Thank you very much.

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, I would actually have come up with a different reason for loss of officials in that particular department. I cannot see it linked to the bargaining council in any way whatsoever.

If you look at the representation in the general Public Service Co- ordinating Bargaining Council, when we go into bargaining, we take into account the specifics of every sector. When you look at the security sector bargaining council, in many instances one would argue that the sectoral bargaining council’s positions are drawn on from the central bargaining chamber in any event.

I think those of us who have a broader appreciation of the importance of centrality and decentralisation in instances would argue that if you are in the central one, your ability to engage and bargain is even greater than when you go to the sectoral chamber, because you are able to influence particular bargaining positions at a central level.

I would want to repeat, once again, that I don’t think the loss of officials has got anything to do with the Bargaining Council. I could give a list of other reasons, but that is an issue for a different debate on a different day. Thanks.

Mr Z C NTULI: Chairperson, I would like to find out from the Minister whether, if we were using a single Public Service, they would be any different than what Mr Moseki has mentioned.

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: That’s a very interesting question, and it’s an issue of interest for every trade unionist in this country, in particular those at local government level. I am not going to make assumptions around any lobbying going on at any level.

I do want to say that we will still retain sectoral bargaining chambers, because as we talk about a single Public Service, we are not talking about a uniformity that will preclude the need for flexibility when you look at various sectors. What we are looking at is standardisation that is required, but when we come to bargaining, we will indeed continue with sectoral bargaining chamber arrangements because each sector does have particular peculiarities of an occupational nature that will need to be taken into consideration. Thank you.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, arising from the Minister’s reply, based on the experience of many of the officials who were serving in these departments under question, immediately when they leave these departments to join the SA Police Service, for example, they become senior to their equals who remained in the Correctional Services department. Their actions are based again on the reason that the salaries of SAPS officials, for example, are higher than those in Correctional Services. Will the Minister review or consider their desire or request to be taken back to the security bargaining council, as it is their desire, their wish and their request?

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, I think we should just recall that if we look at the last financial year, there was a special dispensation that was created for the SA Police Service. This dispensation was one that was referred to by the President in the state of the nation address when he said that we would review the remuneration of the SA Police Service. That particular increase was an increase that was over and above that which was agreed to in the general bargaining chamber.

At this particular point in time, we are looking at the overall remuneration and conditions of service of the Department of Correctional Services. I think that, indeed, there may well be a future consideration of what’s considered quite logical in terms of the location of corrections in the Safety and Security Sector Bargaining Council.

But, as I earlier cautioned members, we should not see that particular dispensation and conflate it with what could be considered as dissatisfaction or loss of officials in a particular department or sector. One is noting the kinds of concerns that are being raised. Thanks.

 Review of practice of outsourcing recruitment of departmental staff

1. Kgoshi M L Mokoena asked the Minister for the Public Service and Administration:

   Whether her department will review or discourage the practice of some departments to outsource the recruitment of staff to private entities; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? C549E

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Thank you very much, Chairperson. In terms of the particular question that has been asked, I should state first and foremost that in terms of the Public Service Act of 1994 the appointment of any person, or the promotion of any employee in the employ of a department must be made by the relevant executing authority or by an employee to whom the said authority has been delegated.

Very clearly, recruitment of personnel to the Public Service is based on the principle of open competition, equitable access and merit-based appointments, the requirement of representivity notwithstanding. Open competition requires that posts are appropriately advertised and publicised to ensure that candidates from the broadest pool are afforded the opportunity to apply for posts in the service of the state. The Public Service Regulations of 2001, as amended, enable an executing authority to utilise an appropriate agency to identify candidates for posts as long as the advertising and selection procedures comply with regulations 7(c) and (d). These regulations, inter alia, require that a selection committee be used to make recommendations on the appointments to posts and it’s mandatory that the chairperson of the selection committee be an employee.

Furthermore, before making a decision on an appointment or filling of a post, an executing authority must satisfy himself or herself that the candidate qualifies in all respects for the post and that his or her claims in his or her application for the post have been verified, and record in writing that verification.

In short, we don’t encourage the practice of headhunting, but it is one measure that can be used following the correct criteria. Thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, hon Minister. Just before I take a follow-up question, an announcement has been made that the Minister requested to deal with all her questions because of other engagements.

In future, can I just indicate that before we take such a decision we’ll have to talk to other Ministers as well, because they might also have other engagements. So we’ll formalise this thing before we give such permission.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, arising from my eloquent Minister’s reply, based on what we were told by some departments in the peace and security cluster, they have considered the exercise to be an expensive one. As they have said, it was a pilot project as far as they were concerned.

Is this not implying that as government we’re unable to train our own officials who can efficiently recruit, advertise and select qualified people to be employed in the service to save the money that departments acceded to, as they have agreed that what they were doing now, by involving these agencies, was very expensive? Can’t we consider that, hon Minister?

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Yes, thank you, Chairperson, I do want to say that using headhunting companies is the exception rather than the rule, because indeed it is an expensive exercise and you’ve got to present a special motivation to indicate why you need to use a headhunting company when it comes to appointments to particular posts. The general practice occurs in instances at the level of senior management or specialist positions where it is not easy to obtain such candidates through the open market.

I do want to say, once again, that at the end of the day the actual appointment process is done by officials and the executing authority. In instances where the executing authority is not involved, it happens according to the delegation of that particular authority, but it is not the rule, and I would indeed be interested to pursue and appreciate the context which is being referred to today. Thank you.

Mr B J TOLO: Thank you, Chair. You will rule me out of order if you think the follow-up question I’m going to ask is out of order, but Chair, it is suggested that it takes about eight months for a government department to actually advertise and appoint a person in the Public Service.

Is this because there is no capacity in the departments to do this within a short space of time, or is it because of this outsourcing? Because this also affects not only highly skilled people, but ordinary people, even matriculants sometimes who are just loitering in the street. We are employing them within eight months. Why is it taking such a long time for government to do this when we are saying as government that we want to fight poverty, we are fighting unemployment, but it takes the government departments eight months to employ? I think it is a very long time. Thank you. The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Thank you, Chairperson, I would agree with the hon member that it is an inordinately long time and it is unacceptably long, because the prescripts and regulatory framework indicate you should not take that long. That means that there is a problem in the human resource and corporate management section of that department. I don’t think we must find other excuses. It’s got nothing to do with what’s called outsourcing. There is nothing like outsourcing appointments in government. It is just not done.

I had indicated that in certain instances headhunting companies may be used to assist in the process of appointments in one department where there has been a particular problem because of the extent of the problem and the need to, within a short space of time, fill an inordinate number of vacancies. That’s where we are looking at some collaboration with a human resource company, but that’s because of extraordinary circumstances. It’s a department where there’s been a serious problem. There’s been an investigation and an identification of the problem, and indeed in the area of human resource management and corporate services this problem was identified and pointed out, but that is being done under the leadership of the management of that department or the interim management and under the guidance of the executing authority. But I do want to say it is not the norm to take a period of eight months. There is a management problem when that does happen.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA : Arising from the Minister’s reply, can we be assured that from now onwards we’ll see some change?

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, you can’t see change when the practice is not part of the regulatory environment. You can only see a change if there is a trend and I have tried to persuade members of this House that outsourcing is not the norm and that where it may have happened - and I would not even have used the term “outsourcing” - it’s been the exception rather than the rule, and I really don’t see how we change the exception.

 Monitoring of adherence by public servants to Batho Pele principles

1. Mr N J Mack asked the Minister for the Public Service and Administration:

   Whether her department is able to monitor whether public servants in all departments adhere to the Government’s Batho Pele principle; if not, (a) what is the position in this regard and (b) when will her department be able to do so; if so, how effective is this monitoring? C550

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Chairperson, the Department of Public Service and Administration is able to monitor whether or not public servants adhere to the government’s Batho Pele principles and various processes and initiatives that have been put in place to ensure effective service delivery.

Since 1994, as a democratic government, we have targeted the acceleration of service delivery to communities in order to eradicate the inequalities of the past. As a matter of fact, the original White Paper on Transforming Public Service Delivery of 1 October 1997 - if members could go back to it

• states clearly that a guiding principle for the Public Service in South Africa is that of service to the people.

In terms of an earnest part of the mandate of the Department of Public Service and Administration, a survey was conducted in June 2004 to determine the extent to which departments implement Batho Pele. All national and provincial departments were requested to give an account of the implementation and promotion of Batho Pele against the backdrop of their respective mandates and the services that they provide.

Specific areas have been identified as the eight principles of Batho Pele – and for easy reference I’d want to refer to them: consultation, service standards, access, courtesy, information, openness and transparency, redress and value for money. We have found, from the feedback that we have received, that aspects that impact on the effective implementation of Batho Pele include the lack of back-office systems, processes and activities that include human resources - which was referred to in a question asked earlier

• organisational development, finance and procurement, leadership style, organisational culture and ethics, monitoring and evaluation, amongst others.

Based on the survey’s findings, Cabinet actually took a decision to intensify the implementation of Batho Pele through a range of other initiatives that include the service delivery watch or unannounced site visits. These visits involve and require members of the executive, nationally and provincially, to go to service delivery points without announcing their intention.

Chairperson, you would also be pleased to note that the President does what he calls Sho’t Left. That means he enters any service delivery point, whether it is a school or office, en route to any particular activity. In many instances some of the staff members have said that: “If it wasn’t for the convoy, we wouldn’t have been sure if it was the President because we didn’t expect him to come to this point.” This is part of what we call “unannounced site visits”. In business terms this is referred to as “the mystery shopper”, but I had better not use that term lest I be accused of wanting to outsource something. [Laughter.]

There is also the Public Service Focus Week, which includes a programme called Project Khaedu, where senior officials such as directors-general, deputy directors-general and chief directors from the national or provincial head offices are expected to go to the coalface of service delivery, the frontline offices, to experience service and to assist in improving service delivery as much as possible. However, in this instance, they don’t go as chiefs, but as workers under the supervision of the person in charge in that particular office.

There are various other interventions that we should be implementing. These are not managed centrally, but belong in an area that should be taken forward across government and across the respective spheres. Thanks, Chairperson.

Mr Z C NTULI: Chairperson, I thank the Minister for her response. Minister, I would like to find out whether there are any disciplinary measures or punitive measures taken against the officers – when you go to government offices you don’t get any joy – who just do as they wish and do not adhere to the principles of Batho Pele?

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, indeed, I think we don’t only want to look at punitive measures, but also at the development interventions required where there are problems at a service delivery point or at the frontline of service delivery.

First and foremost, I think what we need are reports from Members of Parliament on instances where they have been exposed to service delivery gaps or weaknesses. This should be communicated to the respective Ministers and through Premiers to the MECs in order that there are efforts to deal with the problem in a specific office or service delivery point, etc. Yes, there are disciplinary procedures. You can ensure, where there is incompetence in service delivery, that you do institute incompetence procedures.

The one reality that we face is that there is a view among public servants, for instance managers, and as may be suggested at a political level, that it’s not that easy to discipline public servants. That is not true. The weakness may stem from the fact that human resources personnel and managers are not willing to take action, as they should, and ensure that they intervene timeously to improve service delivery, where required, by instituting corrective or disciplinary measures.

  Effectiveness of izimbizo conducted by Public Service Commission

1. Mr A T Manyosi asked the Minister for the Public Service and Administration:

   How effective are the izimbizo conducted by the Public Service Commission? C551E

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, I want to start off by saying that the Public Service Commission does not conduct izimbizo. These, I think we know, are conducted by the President, the Deputy President and the executive to interact with communities on the government’s programme of action. Thank you.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Thank you, Chairperson. Madam Minister, are the outreach programmes conducted by the Public Service Commission having any impact on our government?

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Yes, Chairperson, these are what is called Citizens’ Forums. This was developed as a system for public representatives and public service institutions rather than the executive. So, it was a very specific forum. It is thus a valuable tool for members of this House to engage with communities and to strengthen their oversight role. I would thus encourage all members to obtain copies of the CD from the Public Service Commission so that they can consider the implementation of these programmes in association with representatives from the various spheres of government. Thank you.

        Measures to improve billing system of municipalities

1. Kgoshi M L Mokoena asked the Minister for Provincial and Local Government:

   Whether his department will put any measures in place to ensure an improvement in the billing system of municipalities; if not, why not; if so, when? C544E

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Thank you, Chairperson. The answer to Question 27 is as follows. In May 2005 the Department of Provincial and Local Government rolled out an initiative under the auspices of Project Consolidate that focuses on gaining a better understanding of municipal billing systems. This initiative was intended to simultaneously improve the billing systems in the pilot municipalities in which it was implemented.

The initiative was also intended to capture knowledge and experiences that could be replicated across the local government sphere in order to strengthen the financial and economic viability of our municipalities. The initiative was implemented in 12 pilot municipalities.

The initiative in the pilot municipalities focused primarily on the following issues: the availability and the condition of service of bulk infrastructure as well as consumption measurement; infrastructure, that is, water and electricity meters; the operational processes employed by municipalities with regard to the provision of quality and reliable services with special focus on issues relating to meter-reading services; the management information systems that feed into and generate the municipal accounts and that assist with decision-making and overall management in municipalities; and the quality and effectiveness of interaction with communities, particularly with regard to how the municipalities communicate their policies and programmes and how they facilitate feedback from communities and address disputes relating to municipal accounts.

Generally, the initiative focused on the information technology systems used by the municipalities and also on broader issues that affect municipal accounts that are sent to residents. The 12 municipalities selected to be part of the Project Consolidate municipal building initiative represent a wide range of municipalities across the country.

The project includes small municipalities still grappling with establishment issues such as Makhuduthamaga Municipality, which at the inception of the initiative only had 23 customers on its customer database, out of a household population of 55 000, medium-sized municipalities such as Madibeng Municipality with 120 000 households and metros such as the city of Johannesburg, which has a customer base of approximately 1 million households.

The rationale for involving this range of municipalities located in every province was to ensure that we do not only identify working solutions regarding the value challenges in these municipalities, but that lessons learnt from these experiences could be shared with other municipalities and viable solutions replicated.

In the 2007-08 financial year improvements in the 12 municipalities will be documented and shared and mechanisms through which viable solutions will be replicated in other municipalities would also be developed. With regard to other municipalities, it must be said that despite the challenges they continue to tackle, generally the billing systems are functioning well.

Rre A J L MOSEKI: Modulasetilo, ke dumela gore Motlatsa-Tona o tla ntlhaloganya gore ka reng. A o tla ntlhaloganya? Ke ne ke re go totobetse gore go sa ntse go na le mathata mo dimmasepaleng tse di farologaneng ka mokgwa o wa disuga. [The billing system.] Ke batla go botsa Motlatsa-Tona gore a go na le se re tlwaetseng go se bitsa “mekgwa ya go-sa-le-gale ya tsiboso” [Early warning systems.] e e kgonang go lemosa gore mmasepala o o nang le mathata a mokgwa wa disuga ke ofe? Ke a leboga. (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)

[Mr A J L MOSEKI: Chairperson, I hope that the Deputy Minister will understand what I am saying. Will you understand? I was saying it is obvious that there are still problems with the billing system at different municipalities. I would like to know from the Deputy Minister whether we have what is known as an “early warning system” that will be able to detect which municipality has problems with their billing system. Thank you.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: At the moment, as I’ve said in my answer, we’ve got a pilot programme. In the year 2007-08 we’ll have a report on these pilot municipalities that have actually applied these new billing systems. It will be difficult to give you an answer now, but we’ll do so once we’ve collected all the information on how the pilot municipalities have fared, and perhaps those kind of things would also come out.

Payment of allowances to traditional leaders for attending council sittings

1. Kgoshi M L Mokoena asked the Minister for Provincial and Local Government:

   Whether traditional leaders are being paid (a) sitting and (b) travelling allowances for attending the sittings of councils in their municipalities; if not; (i) why not and (ii) when will this be done? C545E

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, to the hon Kgoshi Mokoena, this question arises as a result of the provisions of section 81 of the Local Governments: Municipal Structures Act, Act 117 of 1998, which allows a designated number of traditional leaders to participate in the proceedings of certain categories of municipal councils. The term “participate” entails that the relevant traditional leaders do not become members of the municipal councils as a result of their participation.

The existing law makes no provision for payment of a sitting allowance to those traditional leaders who are participating in municipal councils. This is so because they are not members and they also continue to hold their positions as traditional leaders.

For remuneration purposes such participation is regarded as falling within the broad definition of the current role of a traditional leader in our country. Consequently, traditional leaders continue to receive remuneration and allowances due to them as traditional leaders in terms of section 5 of the Remuneration of Public Office Bearers Act, Act 20 of 1998.

It must also be pointed out that the existing law recognises that traditional leaders may incur expenses as a result of their participation. Thus, section 81(5)(b) of the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act makes provision for the payment of out-of-pocket expenses in respect of such participation. These expenses are in the budget of the municipality in question and include travelling expenses.

Finally, I’m not aware of any traditional leader who has not received payment for out-of-pocket expenses from any municipal council.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, I thank the hon Deputy Minister for her constructive response. Based on our interaction with the departments in the Budget briefing last year, it was confirmed that traditional leaders are supposed to be paid travelling and sitting allowances. That was said in a formal meeting. The records were submitted to the department before this question was printed.

Now, I do not know who is fooling who. Can we find out exactly who is fooling who because the departments told us in the formal sitting what they are doing? They were even surprised when members questioned them and said that the President is encouraging them to participate in municipalities because they are given travelling allowances and the department confirmed that yes, they are supposed to do that; if it is not done it means that there is some negligence by some municipalities. So, I must just say that we got a different story from the department last year.

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon member, as I have said in my answer, this responsibility lies entirely with a particular municipality and not with the provincial local government. I am not so sure about this meeting, I do not recollect and I do not think that I was there in that meeting for the sake of record.

But I have said here that they are being paid stipends for sitting and travelling expenses. The municipality must pay them. And if there is a municipality that does not pay them you can report it to us so that we can take it up with the municipality. But it is their responsibility for them to be given this allowance for travelling and other expenses but not necessarily for sitting in council. If there is a particular municipality that is not doing that we would welcome that information so that we can interact with that given municipality.

Mr Z C NTULI: Chairperson, in fact I would like to say that this is not a question but just a follow-up. We had some complaints, particularly in KwaZulu–Natal. They were saying that the traditional leaders who fall under the metro are better off because when they attend these meetings they get some money. They receive about R3 000 just to attend and the others who are just outside the boundaries of the metro are saying that they are not getting anything or they get small fees. Maybe we just need to look at it to rectify the situation.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I do not think, Minister, that you have to respond to that unless you have a response, but I think that is a question dealing with standardisation. Can you please switch off the cellphones? I am hearing this cellphone now ring for the second time.

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Yes Chairperson, as I said, we welcome this information so that we can take it up with the necessary municipality or even the MEC himself if it is in KZN. So if you can provide us with the information as to which municipality is involved, we will take it up.

           Number of councillors also serving as teachers

1. Mr A T Manyosi asked the Minister for Provincial and Local Government:

   How many councillors are serving as such while keeping their positions as teachers? C546E

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chair, the answer to this question from the hon Manyosi is as follows. The information which the hon member requires is not readily available within the department. The provincial departments of local government are, in terms of the law, the repositories of such information. They have been requested to furnish us with the details. The information will be passed on to the hon members as soon as it is received.

I must, however, take this opportunity to indicate that teachers are allowed by the Constitution to make themselves available for election as councillors. In this regard, I refer the hon member to the provisions of section 158(1)(b) of the Constitution as read with section 21 of the Municipal Structures Act of 1998:

Once elected, a teacher may resign from his or her post to focus on municipal work. However, the teacher is also free to assume the position of a councillor on a part-time basis whilst at the same time continuing to work as a teacher.

What I would like to say to the hon member is that the onus is on the various political parties as to whether they would allow teachers to stand for election as councillors, not the municipality or government. Political parties must decide whether they would allow teachers to contest elections at the local government level or not.

Mr Z C NTULI: Chairperson, I would like to find out from the Deputy Minister whether in future we would do away with the part-time councillors, because I think there are many loopholes. For example, you find that people who are PCO administrators are councillors and they work for the government either way, so I wanted to check whether we will do away with this part- time thing or not. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Hon member, it would be very difficult for me to stand here and say yes, we will do so in future, but it can actually be looked at in future. As I said earlier on, it depends on your conscience as an individual, whether we are going to neglect the children at school - the future leaders of this country who are still at school - and concentrate on the council, or perhaps work part-time with the council.

I think we can surely say that in future it can be reviewed to see what is best for the country. At the moment the focus is mainly at the local government level. That is the coalface of all the problems of our communities. The local government level will be the focus in future.

Mr A WATSON: Chair, I am confused. The Minister must please help us. She said correctly that the Constitution allows people who qualify in terms of the constitutional provisions to stand as candidates. But certain categories of candidates, once elected, cannot continue unless they resign from their positions - like teachers - or get permission.

Now the Minister said that they can choose to be part-time councillors and remain as teachers. The information we were given at the previous election was that yes, they can be elected and they can decide to resign, but if they decide to stay on, they need to get the permission of the institution where they are employed as teachers. Now the answer given by the Deputy Minister differs from that; maybe she can enlighten us.

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Hon member, I think we are barking up the wrong tree, because this matter belongs to Education and not to Provincial and Local Government. Education must take charge of that, but as I said, I articulated what the Constitution … [Interjections.] Can you shut up and listen!

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Order!

Mr A WATSON: Hon Chair, I object. The Minister cannot tell me to shut up! That is unparliamentary and I will not allow it!

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Order! I have heard that. Deputy Minister, could you please withdraw that?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, I withdraw.

As I said, it is a matter that Education needs to look at, because it affects education. It affects the future of the children. It is not for Provincial and Local Government to decide whether one is going to be a councillor or not, but Education should actually take that decision and decide about their staff, the teachers of this country, and whether they can serve as councillors or not. But the Constitution again protects them. If one individual decides that they want to be a part-time councillor and want to work as a teacher, the Constitution protects them 100%.

Measures to ensure that municipalities do not receive qualified audit
                               reports

1. Mr Z C Ntuli asked the Minister for Provincial and Local Government:

   (1) Whether his department has put any measures in place to ensure that municipalities do not receive qualified audit reports; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what measures;

   (2) whether he will make a statement on the matter? C548E

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, the answer to Question 31 asked by hon Ntuli is as follows. The National Treasury and the Department for Provincial and Local Government continue to provide support to municipalities on a variety of issues. The nature of our support, however, must be understood within the current constitutional and legal framework.

Firstly, the national government cannot encroach on the functions and institutional integrity of government in other spheres. Secondly, a municipality has the right to govern, on its own initiative, the local government affairs of its community. Lastly, the national government may not compromise or impede a municipality’s ability or right to exercise its power or perform its functions. It is within these constitutional injunctions that the government response needs to be understood.

There are six main problematic areas which have given rise to qualified reports by the Auditor-General. These are: failure to submit financial statements within prescribed timeframes; inadequate internal control mechanisms; inability to manage the asset register properly; failure associated with debt collection; inadequate risk management measures and failure to provide in the budget for bad debts.

Through the introduction of the Local Government: Municipal Finance Management Act of 2003, government introduced norms and standards to which all municipalities must conform. Secondly, through Project Consolidate, experienced financial officers were seconded to assist municipalities lacking in capacity.

Thirdly, through the Municipal Assistance Grant, the national government assists towards strengthening internal systems and the building of in-house human capacity within municipalities. Lastly, in April 2004, introducing a support project the department focused on annual financial statements. Other partners in this project are municipalities, the Institute of Municipal Finance Officers and PricewaterhouseCoopers. Since 2004 this project has led to significant improvements in 82 municipalities regarding the quality of financial statements and the observance of deadlines.

Mr Z C NTULI: I would like to find out from the Deputy Minister as to whether those municipalities who are under Project Consolidate also got qualified audits?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Yes, they did. Hence, we have invited all these financial experts so that we can deploy them to various municipalities that fall under Project Consolidate. Not only financial experts, but other expertise as well has been deployed to these various municipalities. Many of them fall under Project Consolidate.

We need to satisfy ourselves that those particular municipalities can now run on their own because they would have gained the necessary skills, etc.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Let me thank the Deputy Minister and the department for the initiatives in trying to assist our municipalities. Chairperson, I hope you are aware that immediately after the sitting four of us in this Chamber who are in this local government committee will be flying back to the Eastern Cape to join our colleagues who are there, as we speak, with the finance committee.

The reason we are going there is the very same question that was raised here by my colleague, namely qualified reports from our municipalities. Having thanked the Minister for their initiatives, what can we do to capacitate our municipalities to avoid these kinds of abnormalities in our municipalities because it affects service delivery?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: I couldn’t agree more with the hon member in terms of the struggling municipalities, hence we came up with these initiatives as to what can be done because it was after some research that the Department for Provincial and Local Government came up with this initiative and took up the initiative of Project Consolidate to assist those struggling municipalities.

What we have done under Project Consolidate, after undertaking that research, was to identify where the blockages are in those municipalities that fall under Project Consolidate. We know exactly where the blockages are, hence we actually deployed those experts to go and assist municipalities.

I think it is a joint effort by all of us - all three spheres of government

• to assist these struggling municipalities because that is where the real delivery takes place, at the coalface at municipal level.

I think we need to assist each other and appreciate the information that we have just received that there is a team from the NCOP that has gone down to the Eastern Cape.

      Establishment of one national archives unit per province

1. Ms N M Madlala-Magubane asked the Minister of Arts and Culture:

   Whether his department succeeded in establishing one national archives unit per province; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? C552E

The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Chairperson, the answer is: No. According to Schedule 5 of the Constitution, Act 108 of 1996 as amended, archives other than the national ones are an exclusive provincial legislative competence. Therefore the national Department of Arts and Culture does not have the constitutional mandate to establish archives in provinces.

However, the department has transferred the following archive repositories with associated staff infrastructure and assets, which it inherited from the previous dispensation, to the provinces listed as follows. Firstly, the Port Elizabeth records centre was transferred to the Eastern Cape province. That was done on 1 April 2000. Secondly, Pietermaritzburg and Durban archive repositories and record centres were transferred to the KZN province, which was done on 1 April 2001. Thirdly, the Bloemfontein archive repository and record centre was transferred to the Free State province on 1 April 2004. Fourthly, the Cape Town archive repository and record centre was transferred to the Western Cape province on 1 April 2006. Thank you.

Nk N M MADLALA-MAGUBANE: Sihlalo, ngabe sekuyiyona leyo imininingwane? Bengifuna ukuthola nokuthi ikuphi inqubekela-phambili eMnyangweni. Yingakho- ke ngithanda ukwazi ukuthi ngabe lezi ezinye izifunda ezisilele ngaphandle zona azinazo yini izizinda zokukhweza ulwazi na. Ngithanda nokwazi ukuthi ngabe izitshudeni zethu noma izingane zesikole zizisebenza ngokuphelele yini na lezi zizinda zokukhweza ulwazi. Okunye engifuna ukukwazi ukuthi ngabe kuyakhokhwa yini. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Ms N M MADLALA-MAGUBANE: Chairperson, is that the only information available? I wanted to find out about the progress in the department. That is why I want to know whether the provinces that are left outside have archive repositories and record centres. I would also like to know whether our students or pupils are making full use of archive repositories and record centres. The other thing that I would like to know is whether there is any admission fee to these archive repositories. Thank you.]

UMPHATISWA WEZENKCUBEKO NAMASIKO: Ukuphendula ndingathi ke, okokuqala, ezo ndawo ndingazibalanga zazingenazo iindawo ekuthiwa zi-archives eziphethwe ngulo rhulumente kazwelonke. Ngamanye amazwi ke ndizama ukuchaza into yokuba ezi sasiziphethe nathi saye sazinikezela emaphondweni. Okwesibini, ke abafundi bonke bayazisebenzisa ezi archives.

Eyokuba bazisebenzisa luhlobo luni andinakukuchazela, ngoba andinalo ulwazi malunga naleyo indawo. Okwesithathu, ke kule yokuba kuyabhatalwa na, hayi akubhatalwa njeng alo naliphi na ithala leencwadi okanye i-library ekhoyo apha eMzantsi Afrika, inkoliso yazo kungenwa felefele akubhatalwa, kodwa ukuba kukho izinto ezithile ozifunayo mhlawumbi amaxwebhu okanye iidokhumenti othi uzicele ukuba uzikotshelwe uya kuyibhatalela ke leyo. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: To answer I can say, firstly, the areas that I did not mention did not have archives that fall under this national government. In other words, I am trying to explain that we have transferred those that were under our control to the provinces.

Secondly, all scholars are making use of these archives. I can not explain how they utilise them, because I am not well informed about that.

Thirdly, with regard to the issue of payment, there is no payment, as is the case at all libraries in South Africa. At most of them entrance is free, but if there are certain items that you need, like documents which you ask to be photocopied, you have to pay for that service.]

Nk N F MAZIBUKO: Sihlalo, Ngqongqoshe, ngithanda ukwazi mayelana nalokhu: Laphaya ePitoli kukhona ihhovisi lapho kukhona isizinda sikazwelonke sokukhweza ulwazi, uma ungena ngaphansi. Kuthiwa leso sizinda silingana namakhilomitha angasuka lapha eKapa aze afike le eMessina. Ngabe-ke yiluphi ulwazi olugcinwe lapho ngoba ngikuzwe uthi isifunda ngesifunda sine sizinda saso, futhi lolo lwazi olugcinwe laphaya ePitoli olunjani lona? Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Ms N F MAZIBUKO: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, I would like to know the following with regard to this. In Pretoria there is a national archive repository and record centre. It is on the ground floor. They say that centre is equal to the distance between Cape Town and Messina. My question therefore is what kind of information is preserved there because I heard you saying each province has its own archive repository, and also, what difference is there between the information kept in Pretoria and the information kept in provinces? Thank you.]

The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Le kaloku isePitoli yile iphantsi kwethu, yekazwelonke okanye yile kuthiwa yi-national archives. Yeyona igcina zonke iirecords zoMzantsi Afrika. [The one in Pretoria is the one that is under our control. It is the one referred to as the national archives. It is the one that keeps all the South African records.]

             Progress in placement of artists in schools

1. Ms N M Madlala-Magubane asked the Minister of Arts and Culture:

   In view of the fact that his department has had artists placed in schools based in the Free State, Limpopo, KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng, what progress has his department made in placing artists in other provinces? C553E

The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Chairperson, the placement of artists in schools in the four provinces as listed in the question took place in the context of the South African-Flemish bilateral projects in arts and culture education and training, which ran from 2003 to 2005. The purpose of the project was to research, develop and design arts and culture education and training modules that were piloted in Gauteng in 2003 to 2005 and rolled out in the three provinces of Limpopo, Free State and KwaZulu-Natal in 2005 until today.

The following are the three arts and culture education and training models that were developed within the South African-Flemish bilateral agreement: artists in schools and community centres, and with regard to culture, skills development and culture investment projects aimed at community arts practitioners. Upon completion of the capacity-building programme these arts practitioners are placed in schools to assist arts and culture learning as educators in the delivery of quality arts and culture in the classroom. There is an advanced education certificate in arts and culture in-service programme aimed at the arts and culture learning area educators; and a train the trainer capacity-building programme aimed at arts and culture learning area district officials.

The roll-out of arts and culture education and training models, including the placement of arts practitioners in schools outside the four provinces of Limpopo, Free State, KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng, is scheduled to take place in 2007 to 2008, starting in Mpumalanga and the Western Cape. It should be noted that the roll-out of any one of the arts and culture education and training models as mentioned in paragraph 1 above is preceded by a long process of consultation with the provincial stakeholders and building the necessary capacity with the identified service providers who would eventually facilitate the actual implementation.

The 2008-09 and 2009-10 financial years will see the implementation of arts and culture education and training models in the last three provinces, thereby completing the national roll-out of arts and culture education and training programmes in all nine provinces of the Republic of South Africa. Thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: MaMadlala, do you have any follow-up question?

Nk N M MADLALA-MAGUBANE: Yebo, Sihlalo. Ngiyabonga kuNgqongqoshe ngencazelo asinike yona. Ngethemba ukuthi uMnyango uzokwenza izinto ngokukhulu ukuphazima kweso ngani ngoba siyazidinga lezi zindawo ezifana nalezo ezibhekela ezobuciko. Izingane zethu zinamakhono noma amathalente azifihlile kuzona, noma-ke enye ingane iyantengantenga ekufundeni izincwadi kodwa uma sekuza emakhonweni leyo ngane ibe ngekhaliphile.

Nk N F MAZIBUKO: Sihlalo, bengithanda ukubuza kuNgqongqoshe ukuthi ngabe uzokhuluma noNgqongqoshe Wezemfundo yini ukuze izindaba zobuciko zibe yingxenye ye-National Curriculum Statement? (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Ms N M MADLALA-MAGUBANE: Yes, Chairperson, I thank the Minister for the response he has given. I just hope that the department will be quick to act on these things because we need these centres where arts education will be given. Our children have different skills and talents that are hidden in them, for example one may find that a child who is struggling academically may excel in arts.

Ms N F MAZIBUKO: Chairperson, I would like to know from the Minister whether he is going to speak to the Minister of Education so that these arts issues could become part of the National Curriculum Statement.]

MPHATISWA WEZENKCUBEKO NAMASIKO: Ewe, sisebenzisana kakhulu noMphathiswa wezeMfundo, ingxaki ke phofu ibanye, ibasekubeni uMphathiswa yena ukuzwelonke, nangona abona bantu benza umsebenzi bephaya emaphondweni. uMphathiswa yena akanamandla okuphatha izikolo ezisemaphondweni. Amandla akhe asekwenzeni umthetho okanye ipolisi kuphela. Sisebenzisana naye ke apha kwinqanaba likazwelonke, kodwa axakwe ke ngoku xa thina sobabini sithe sanesigqibo ukuba siyakwenziwa na eso sigqibo phaya ezantsi ephondweni. Siyancedisana kakhulu ke naye uMphathiswa lo. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Yes, we are co-operating a lot with the Minister of Education, but there is one problem, and that is that the Minister is at the national level, while the actual people who are doing the work are in the provinces. The Minister has no powers to control schools in the provinces. The powers of the Minister are to promulgate a law or a policy only. We work together at national level, but encounter a problem after the two of us have an agreement as to whether the agreement will be implemented down there in the provinces. We are greatly assisting each other, with regard to the Minister.]

             Progress made since launch of dictionaries

1. Ms N M Madlala-Magubane asked the Minister of Arts and Culture:

   Whether any progress has been made since the launch of (a) Natural Science and Technology for Grades 4 to 6, (b) Parliamentary/Political Terminology and (c) ICT Terminology; if not, why not; if so, what progress? C554E

The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Chairperson, the launch of the dictionaries in September 2005 was part of a continuing process of raising awareness to alert stakeholders to the availability of terminologies in all the 11 official languages, particularly in the technical domains like information and communications technology, natural sciences and mathematics.

The department launched, amongst others, the mathematics dictionary for Grades R to 6 in 2003, which was distributed to primary schools across South Africa.

Regarding question (b), I would like to reiterate the fact that since the information and communications technology project was initiated by the Department of Communications, it was handed over to them on the same day as the launch.

Although the Department of Communications had in mind their own stakeholders for the project, the Department of Arts and Culture made the ICT terminology dictionary available to its own stakeholders as well.

Besides the Department of Communications’ stakeholders, there are a number of the Department of Arts and Culture stakeholders who have received copies of the ICT terminology dictionaries, including the provincial government departments dealing with arts and culture; provincial legislatures; a number of national government departments, particularly the National Language Forum; the university community; local government units dealing with language development, and various other stakeholders who have interacted with the National Language Service regarding these dictionaries.

Plans are under way to post these dictionaries on the departmental website so that all citizens can have access to them via the Internet.

With regard to (c), it also was distributed to various stakeholders in the same way as the ICT terminology dictionary, and the natural sciences and technology terminology dictionaries as well as the parliamentary/political terminology dictionaries.

My department maintains a national terminology databank that is ever- expanding as it continues to record and update terminologies for all the 11 official languages.

Regarding (d), further copies of the terminology dictionaries continue to be distributed to all the relevant provincial stakeholders through the language research and development centres. To enhance the quality of the terminology dictionaries and their usefulness, my department continues to conduct surveys with all the users at various times. Feedback from these is important for improving later versions of the said dictionaries. Thank you.

Ms N M MADLALA-MAGUBANE: Chairperson, no, there is no follow-up question. The only thing I am asking is that the Minister should provide us with the answer.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Thank you, hon Magubane. If you are the person who asked the question, it does not preclude the other members of the House from asking questions. If there are no questions from other hon members, I will take it there are no further follow-up questions.

I think, Minister, you have taken note of the request to make the written text of your reply available to the hon member.

Hon members, I have been made aware that Questions 39 and 40 asked by hon Mazibuko will not be responded to in this question session, because of the nonavailability of both the Minister and the Deputy Minister who are not here because of other engagements. So they will stand over for the next session.

Progress iro ambulance service improvement and improving the effectiveness of emergency medical services

1. Ms N F Mazibuko asked the Minister of Health:

   (1) Whether any progress has been made in respect of the business plans for ambulance service improvement and the implementation thereof in each province; if not, why not; if so, what progress;

   (2) whether her department has been able to meet its target aimed at improving the effectiveness of emergency medical services (EMS) in the (a) 2004-05 and (b) 2005-06 financial years; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? C555E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: The answer to the question asked by hon member Mazibuko to the Minister of Health is as follows. This is the answer to part one of the question: Yes, provincial business plans for emergency medical services have been submitted and are in the process of being reviewed and finalised. Six of our provinces, namely the Free State, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape and North West, require further adjustments to the business plan in order to implement the optimal solution.

The answer to the second part of the question is: Yes, although there are still inherent problems, progress is being made by all nine provinces. Response times show improvement nationally. All provinces but the Northern Cape have eradicated one-person ambulance crews, due to staff shortages that are currently being addressed by the province.

The number of daily operational ambulances has increased over the last two financial years. However, staff shortages and a lack of skilled personnel remain a challenge. The mid-level worker programme is currently being implemented in provincial emergency medical services training colleges to address the skilled personnel shortfall. Thank you.

Nk N F MAZIBUKO: Phini likaNgqongqoshe, bengithanda ukwazi ukuthi, njengoba ukhuluma ngesimo ezingeni likazwelonke, ngabe unayo yini imininingwane emaqondana nezifunda noma ngokwamadolobha afana nomaGoli, oPitoli nawo wonke amanye? Okwesibili, izolo ngifunde kwiphephandaba i-Star ukuthi kukhona ilungu elithe likhathazekile ngoba kukhona izincingo ezingaphendulwa uma abahlali beshaya ucingo. Ngabe kuyiqiniso lokho na? (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Ms N F MAZIBUKO: Deputy Minister, I would like to know, as you are talking about the situation nationally, whether you have information concerning cities like Johannesburg, Pretoria and all others. The second question is about what I read in The Star yesterday, namely that a certain member expressed her dismay about telephones not being answered by staff when people phone for emergencies. Is that true?]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, I would answer by saying that we would need more information on the specific towns and cities where problems are experienced. My answer referred to the business plans as forwarded to us by the provinces. So, in that regard I would request more information so that we can respond to that particular issue where she says phones were not answered by the officials working in that particular area.

However, in that regard I wish to assure the member that the department is very much aware of the difficulties that some areas experience and there are increasingly better services being provided. And, as I said, we are ensuring that where there are staff shortages we are looking into this area by training more personnel.

May I also say that, as we prepare for 2010, these are some of the specific issues which the Department of Health has been asked to look into so as to ensure that our readiness plans are in order for 2010. This is going to have a benefit for the whole country not just for the soccer World Cup.

May I just also share with the members that I recently personally had an opportunity to visit our emergency medical services centre here in the Western Cape, where I saw a very good service in partnership with local government, in terms of the disaster management service where they are able to locate the ambulances when there is a request for an ambulance. They can look on the screen and see where the ambulances are and in that way be in a position to call on the ambulance nearest to where the accident has taken place.

There is also very good partnership with the private sector whereby in particular instances when the public sector ambulance is not there on time the private sector ambulance assists us in picking up the patients that are being transferred to the public sector hospitals. So, we are indeed looking at this matter and aiming to improve our response time. As I have said, I think the indication is that we are moving in the direction of better service to our people.

Distribution of female condoms and programmes to encourage their use

1. Ms N F Mazibuko asked the Minister of Health:

   In light of the planned distribution of 3,5 million female condoms by the end of 2006, (a) how many female condoms have been distributed to date and (b) which programmes have been put in place to encourage young women to use the condoms? C558E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Uyasisebenzisa umam’uMazibuko namhlanje. [Uhleko.] Sihlalo, malungu ahloniphekile, mangiphawule ukuthi ngesikhathi nibiza uMaMadlala ngicishe ngasabela. [Uhleko.] [The hon Mazibuko is making us work very hard today. [Laughter.] Chairperson, hon members, let me say that when you were calling Madlala, I nearly responded. [Laughter.]]

The answer to the question asked by hon member Mazibuko to the Minister of Health is as follows. I shall start with part (a) of the question. The answer is: At the end of February 2007, a total of 2,6 million female condoms had been distributed during the financial year 2006-07.

With regard to part (b) of the question, since the introduction of the female condom in the country, the Department of Health has been extending and strengthening male and female condom promotion as a means of encouraging barrier method use against sexually transmitted infections and HIV transmission as well as unwanted pregnancy.

However, there is no particular programme for female condom promotion as all condom promotion activities are integrated. All health providers at primary health care facilities including youth- friendly services, formally the National Adolescent-Friendly Clinic Initiative, are trained to promote and demonstrate the use of and distribute female condoms.

The Department of Health has also designated the second week in February as National Sexually Transmitted Infections and Condom Awareness Week, to increase awareness of prevention and management of STIs and unwanted pregnancies. There are also ongoing activities through the government information, education and communication programme – the Khomanani campaign

• which are aimed at encouraging condom use among both male and female adults and young people.

Nk N F MAZIBUKO: Ngiyabonga Phini likaNgqongqoshe. Ngoba nakhu uthe sengathi alukho uhlelo olubhekene ngqo nentsha yamantombazane, ngabe uMnyango uzokubhekisisa ngamehlo abukhali yini lokho ukuze sigweme ukubona izingane ezincane zamantombazane zikhulelwa zisesikoleni na? Ngiyabonga.

IPHINI LIKANGQONGQOSHE WEZEMPILO: Ngicabanga ukuthi impendulo iye yakuchaza ukuthi asehlukanisi phakathi kokufundisa ngokusetshenziswa kwekhondomu yabesifazane nokufundisa ngekhondomu yabesilisa, kodwa sithe lezi zinto siyazihlanganisa, ngoba uma umuntu umfundisile ngokusetshenziswa kwekhondomu yalowo wesilisa, lokho kuzophephisa lo wesifazane.

Kusho ukuthi esikukhuthazayo ikakhulukazi ukuthi abesilisa nabesifazane babambisane kulokho, ngoba uma owesifazane ethi kowesilisa akusetshenziswe ikhondomu ngalokho sisuke sizama ukubabonisa abesilisa ukuthi le nto iyinto ebalulekile. Akufuneki bavele bayithathe kancane nje bese beth i, “Mina ngeke ngatshelwa umuntu wesifazane.”

Njengoba ngishilo, izinhlelo zethu siyazama ukuthi sizandise ukuze zikwazi ukufinyelela kubantwana abasakhulayo. Kodwa-ke ngizogcizelela ukuthi, kulokhu, ngibona ukuthi kufuneka sonke sibambisane nabazali kanye nabaholi bomphakathi ngoba sibona kwanda ukukhulelwa kwezingane. Lokho kuyakhombisa ukuthi kukhona lapho konakele khona. Ngakho-ke, lungu elihloniphekile, ngiyacabanga ukuthi, ngokubambisana, ikakhulukazi singomama futhi siyizinhlangano zomama sibe sibambisene nohulumeni, sizokwazi ukuthi sikugweme lokho esikubona kwenzeka emphakathini.

NjengoMnyango Wezempilo, sibambisene nezinhlangano zomphakathi, sizama ukwandisa ukuba khona kwezinsiza zokuhlela imindeni ngoba siyazi ukuthi kukhona isikhathi lapho ukuhlelwa kwemindeni kade kwande kakhulu khona. Kodwa njengamanje siyazama futhi ukuthi siphinde sikuvuselele lokho ukuthi abantu abakhulayo basazi isimo sempilo, bazi ukuthi umuntu ukhulelwa uma kwenzenjani nokuthi bangazivikela kanjani ukuze bangakhulelwa.

Nk N F MAZIBUKO: Ngiyaxolisa Phini likaNgqongqoshe ngokuwugcizelela lo mbuzo. Ngiyizwile impendulo yakho lapho uthe khona izinhlelo ziyababhekela abesilisa nabesifazane abasakhula. Kepha bengithanda ukwazi ukuthi, njengoba kuke kube khona isimo lapho abesilisa benqaba khona ukusebenzisa amajazi omkhwenyana, kungenzeke yini na ukuthi kuzo lezi zinhlelo enizihlelayo kube khona okwenziwayo? Noma ake ngithi, njengoba kuye kwenzeke ukuthi sihlangane sisodwa singabantu besifazane ko-Sawid noma ezinhlanganweni zethu njalo njalo, namantombazane nawo futhi kunezindawo lapho ehlangana khona njengabantu besifazane abasebasha, kungenzeke yini ukuthi siye kogcizelela kubona bebodwa ngokwenza izinhlelo ezibhekiswe kwabesifazane bebodwa lapho sizofike si babonise ngokuthi yiluphi ulwazi okudingeka babe nalo ukuze bakwazi ukusebenzisa ikhondomu yabesifazane uma bezithola besesimweni lapho khona abesilisa benqaba ukusebenzisa ijazi lomkhwenyana? Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Ms N F MAZIBUKO: Thank you, Deputy Minister. Since you said that it seems like you do not have a special programme aimed at female youth, is the department going to look at this closely so that we can avoid young girls getting pregnant while they are at school? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: I think the response explained that we don’t differentiate between educating about the use of female condoms and male condoms, but we said we integrate these things because when you teach a person about the use of a male condom, that will save a female.

This means that what we are encouraging is that males and females must work together on that, because when a female says to the male partner that they must use a condom, that female will be indicating to her male partner that this thing is important. And male partners should not take offence and say, “I cannot be told by a female.”

As I have said, we are trying to expand our programmes to reach the teens. However, I am going to emphasise that, with regard to this, I think that we must all work together, including the parents and the community leadership, because teen pregnancy seems to be on the increase. This indicates that there is something wrong somewhere. Therefore, hon member, I think that through co-operation, particularly between women, women’s organisations and the government, we will be able to thwart what is happening in the community.

As the Department of Health, working together with community organisations, we are trying to increase resources for family planning because we know that there was a time when family planning was prevalent. However, right now we are trying to revive that for the teens to be acquainted with the health issues, and to know under what circumstances a person gets pregnant and the ways to prevent that.

Ms N F MAZIBUKO: I am sorry, Deputy Minister, for repeating this question. I heard your answer when you said programmes do cater for young males and females. However, I would like to know about cases where a male person refuses to use a condom. Is it not possible that in this programme that you are planning, or let me say, as we sometimes meet alone as women in Sawid or in other organisations, to have a platform where young girls meet, as young female people, and we go and address them as females only and give them information on how to use a femidom if they find themselves in a situation where their male partners refuse to use a condom? Thank you.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Deputy Minister, I sympathise with hon member Mazibuko, but you have spoken about an integrated approach to condom use by all sectors of society to ensure that the use of the male condom is by everybody. The young males must take responsibility to ensure that they also educate the others.

So, I think in your response in order to satisfy the hon member, because she may have picked up some experiences on the ground, try to highlight certain practical things and if they are not there I think we need to know that they are not there so that we can move forward. It can then only be taken as advice to the department and there is nothing wrong with that, in my view. This is because the question keeps on coming in different ways and the member seems not to be satisfied.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: I think I do understand the concerns raised by the hon member. The concerns that she is raising are issues of social inequality between men and women and these are issues of gender equality where indeed women may not have the power to negotiate safe sex with their male partners.

This is an issue that we have integrated into the National Strategic Plan on the Prevention and Treatment of HIV and Aids which very soon will be announced by our Deputy President after the meeting of the SA National Aids Council.

This counts among the social determinants of the spread of the virus as well as other sexually transmitted infections, where women have no power to negotiate. Indeed, she is right and this is a matter which I think we should take up together with women’s organisations and do much more to implement what our Constitution says in terms of gender equality. In this regard therefore the female condom which she was asking about does have a particular role because it is actually an instrument that women can use.

We are looking at increasing the availability of the female condom and we are also looking at other suppliers because one of our major problems has been that we have only one supplier for the female condom and that is why it is so costly, but recently we have been aware that there is a generic version of the condom and it is just as efficient and just as effective and we are looking into the issue of procuring this particular one so that women can have greater power.

May I also take the opportunity here to explain that some of the research that we are doing, for example into microbicides, is a further way in which we are looking at instruments that women can take control of in terms of preventing themselves from being infected with HIV. So, there are various methods that are being used and indeed I appreciate very much the concerns of the member. I think, as I said earlier, working together we can tackle this problem.

       Methods of dealing with the issue of illegal immigrants 44.   Mr M A Sulliman asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

  (1)   How  is  her  department  dealing  with  the  issue  of  illegal
       immigrants other than deporting them back  to  their  respective
       countries;

  (2)   whether there is any screening done to determine why the person
       left his/her country; if so, what are the relevant details?
                                                                C563E

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson and hon members, the department is dealing with illegal foreigners in terms of section 32 (1) of the Immigration Act of 2002. This section specifically states that any illegal foreigner shall depart unless authorised by the director-general of the department, in the prescribed manner, to remain in the Republic of South Africa pending his or her application for status.

In addition, government has, however, also adopted a more proactive approach to curb illegal migration through several international engagements at both bilateral and multilateral levels. These include the recent adoption of the SADC Protocol on the Free Movement of Persons, as well as a number of country-to-country visa appointments aimed at encouraging legal migration of persons visiting South Africa.

The department does not have a screening process to determine reasons for coming into South Africa, as is asked in part (2) of the question, in relation to undocumented foreign nationals. This is, however, done in respect of asylum seekers who desire protection and refugee status in South Africa.

Random interaction and interviews with the deportees, as well as studies by NGOs such as the SA Migration Project and the league of refugee women and children, however, shed some light on some of the push factors that make foreign nationals leave their homes to come into South Africa, sometimes illegally. Thanks.

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Thank you, Chairperson and thank you, hon Minister for that response. I think that you and your department are trying your best to pay attention to this particular issue, but we also know that there are socioeconomic circumstances that attract people to South Africa, for job opportunities, etc. Do we perhaps have any plans in place with our SADC countries to assist our neighbouring countries, in order for them to create jobs for their citizens? I think if we could have such a programme in place, it would solve our problem to a great extent. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you, Chairperson, and thanks to hon Sulliman. It is not a plan from the Department of Home Affairs; it is a plan generally from government. It is a government policy. You may have noticed that South Africa has tended to have great interest in resolving some of the conflicts in some of our countries in the continent.

Mr A WATSON: Is it the same with Zimbabwe?

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Okay, all right! That’s your view. Zimbabwe, that’s your view, really. But also, South Africa has tried as much as possible to assist countries which find themselves in difficulties, such as the DRC, and you will know that within SADC itself we have been discussing issues of regional economic integration.

Some of the initiatives which are taken by our President and our government have more to do with preventing some of the push factors in these countries because, at the end of the day, people who tend to bear the brunt are is South Africans. This is because of the pull factors due to the socioeconomic and political conditions in our country.

Mr Z C NTULI: Thank you, Chairperson, and thanks for the response from the hon Minister. When we were visiting Westville in KwaZulu-Natal, we found many foreigners who were in jail and when we asked what will happen to them, they said that seemingly they did not have a clue of what will happen when they come out of jail. I want to find out whether there is any strategy to deport them when they come out of jail. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you, hon member and thank you, Chairperson. It’s not so much a strategy from our department, but what normally happens is before an inmate is discharged from prison the Department of Correctional Services gives us a notice. We write letters to give instructions back with regard to a particular migrant. Even if the person was already residing in South Africa, in most cases we have taken the decision that a person from prison should be deported to their country of origin.

It is difficult to have a strategy unless you know exactly how many people are convicted every day, where they are and where they are located. But I must say that the co-operation between the two departments has been very good, I believe, in all the cases where we’ve had migrants who have served time in prison. At the point of their discharge from prison, it is the responsibility of Correctional Services, together with the Department of Home Affairs, to ensure that those people are deported.

We have people, for instance, in some of the areas, who have been sentenced for up to 25 years for various crimes such as murder, robbery and so on. Once Correctional Services has informed us about that, they already know that at the point of discharge from prison that particular inmate should be deported to his or her country. Thank you.

Mr B J TOLO: Chairperson, I just want to find out from the hon Minister how prevalent is this phenomenon whereby people are deported today and are back in the country the following week, or the situation are made to understand in which some people would actually get themselves arrested on purpose during the festive season so that they get transportation to their countries in order to enjoy holidays on the other side and come back thereafter. How prevalent is this type of situation? Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Hon Minister, you should have noticed that this question is not being asked for the first time today in this Chamber, as far as I remember, but you can respond to it.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you, hon Tolo. I must say that there is indeed this revolving door syndrome of people who get deported and they come back into the country. I need to also point out that it could be that it is because of our porous borders, but definitely this is a phenomenon that does exist.

I, personally, have actually seen the faces of some of the people who had been deported before, at least in Lindela. What is now important is that we’ve developed a system of biometrics where people who pass through Lindela have their fingerprints taken. At some point, I believe, we would need to develop a policy on repeat offenders, so that people who come into the country and are deported twice or thrice should get a penalty of some kind. But definitely, we do have this problem. It is a big problem, but we also need to note that the whole area of illegal migration has become a global challenge.

When we discuss issues of illegal migration, we also need to understand that it doesn’t matter what we do with our porous borders or in strengthening the system of migration. For as long as the world is unable to resolve some of these push factors from these different countries of origin of illegal migrants, we will continue to have this kind of problem, even here in South Africa. So, this is not unique to South Africa. Thank you.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Thank you, hon Minister for the concise response to the question. Is there no way in which we can minimise the expenditure when deporting these illegal immigrants? The Mokoena detachment, in conducting their oversight in North West, went to the police station called Nietverdiend on the border of Gaborone. There were many illegal immigrants there who were arrested. Those officials said that they were going to transport them from the border of Gaborone to Johannesburg.

We went to the far north next to Musina and found some there as well. The officials there also said that they were transporting them to Johannesburg in order to be sent back to Zimbabwe.

I think we can find a way of minimising these expenses. Is there no other method that we can use other than transporting them from the border to Johannesburg and then back to their countries? If we check the distance we travel in using our own cars, wear and tear and everything is very expensive. Can’t we find a better method of doing this thing? Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Hon Minister, before you take the podium, may I bring to the attention of the members the Rules of this House, in that only four follow-up questions are allowed, and it is at the discretion of the officer presiding to allow further questions or not. In that regard, I want to make a ruling that I want to take Kgoshi Mokoena’s question as the last of the four supplementary questions and not allow any further questions. However, hon members who want to pursue certain pertinent questions are at liberty to write to the Minister and she will respond.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you, Chairperson and thanks, hon Mokoena. I’ve noted the comments and the suggestions which have been made, but I also need to state, for the record, that currently we have one deportation centre in the country and that deportation centre is Lindela. Yes, I agree. There is a need to reduce the expenditure for deportations. The truth of the matter is we are spending a lot of money on deportations, particularly because these are not only people who are coming from the neighbouring countries such as Zimbabwe, Mozambique and so on; you also have a sizeable number of people who are deported on a weekly basis to far northern countries of the continent. It is an expensive exercise, because you have to charter an aircraft to take those people home.

Therefore, I agree with you. Perhaps there is a need to, at some point, look at the policy and see how effective it is, and even to look at the calls which we’ve had in relation to deportation of people, but it is one of the major challenging areas for our government.

Revitalisation programme in Northern Cape, with special reference to
             hospital in Emthanjeni Municipality, De Aar

1. Mr M A Sulliman asked the Minister of Health:

   Whether the revitalisation programme has been stopped in the Northern Cape because of the 2010 Soccer World Cup programme, especially in respect of the hospital in Emthanjeni Municipality, De Aar; if not, (a) when will the hospital be completed and (b) how many new jobs will be created to enable this hospital to function as a full-time institution after its completion; if so, what are the relevant details? C564E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chair, hon members, the answer to the question asked by hon member Sulliman to the Minister of Health is as follows. The hospital revitalisation programme was not stopped because of the 2010 Soccer World Cup. The allocation received from National Treasury was sufficient to cover only currently awarded tenders.

The Northern Cape did not have the main hospital contracts approved at the time when the total allocation became known. The earliest completion date for these projects is the end of 2010. The number of new jobs to be created can only be determined when the new organogram has been finalised and approved. Thank you.

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Chairperson, Deputy Minister, what is not clear in my mind is whether we are now saying that for the new financial year, which will start at the end of March, there are no funds available to continue with this project or not? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, as I have indicated, the allocation received from National Treasury was sufficient to cover only currently awarded tenders. That is the answer. Furthermore, this hospital will be completed by the end of 2010. So, indeed, it’s building is still within the planning of our financing protocols.

As I have indicated, I think it is important for members to also understand that when an application is made for revitalisation or the building of a new hospital, its success is dependent on the kind of business case people have put forward. We want to be able to argue, when we go to Treasury as the Department of Health, that indeed a lot of thought has been put into the various elements of the plan, because hospital revitalisation or the building of hospitals is not only about putting up a structure, but also about who will staff the various wards in that particular hospital and where all those people will come from. So, all of that is part of the planning.

As I have said in this regard, the project will go ahead, but in the manner and at the pace in which it has been put forward. Thank you.

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Chairperson, I just wish to make a friendly request to the Deputy Minister, that if it is possible for me to get this answer in a written form, it would be highly appreciated. Thank you very much.

Allocation of social workers to implement Older Persons Act, and increase in salaries of social workers

1. Ms H Lamoela asked the Minister of Social Development:

   (1) (a) What is the optimal allocation of social workers to implement the Older Persons Act, Act 13 of 2006 and (b) what was the actual allocation in this regard as at the latest specified date for which information is available;

   (2) whether the increase in the salaries of social workers includes (a) all social workers or (b) only those working for the state? C566E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Hon Chair, the reply to the question is as follows. There are no social workers earmarked specifically for the implementation of the Older Persons Act, Act 13 of 2006. However, there are 11 565 social workers in the country who are employed by both government and NGOs. These social workers do generic social work, which includes care and services to older persons.

There are also co-ordinators responsible for older persons in provinces and at local levels. The functions of these co-ordinators include, amongst others, the implementation of the Older Persons Act, Act 13 of 2006.

With regard to the further question, the answer is yes, there were increases in the salaries of social workers employed by government as well as increases in the subsidies of social work posts for social workers working in the NGO sector. Thank you.

Ms H LAMOELA: Thank you, Minister, for the answer. I would just like to know, given that we do have a shortage of social workers, how the department intends to raise the required number of social workers and whether it plans to train auxiliary social workers? Do they plan to recruit some from abroad or do they intend to revise the training period for social workers? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, the answer to that is yes, there is a shortage of social workers and the department has a recruitment and retention strategy. Part of that recruitment and retention strategy is the provision of bursaries to increase the number of learners who are going to study social work, as well as various marketing exercises to popularise social work as a career choice.

There are also auxiliary social workers being trained, and recently increases in the salaries of social workers have improved the working conditions somewhat. The department is, on an ongoing basis, consulting with both the training institutions and the SA Council for Social Service Professionals to address the shortage of social workers and to increase their numbers in the country. Thank you.

 Allocation of social workers to implement Children’s Amendment Bill 47.   Ms H Lamoela asked the Minister of Social Development:

  (a) What was the optimal allocation of social workers to implement the
  Children’s Amendment Bill [B 19 – 2006] and (b) what was the actual
  allocation in this regard as at the latest specified date for which
  information is available?               C567E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Thank you, House Chairperson. The reply is as follows. The costing of the children’s Bill focused on costing the services envisaged by the comprehensive new child care legislation, that is the combined section 75 Bill, the Children’s Act, Act 38 of 2005 and the section 76 Bill which is about to go through the National Council of Provinces or which is being processed at the moment. According to the costing report, the optimal allocation of social workers required to implement the new child care legislation as reflected in the implementation plan – low-cost scenario for the 2006-07 financial year - is 8 744 social workers.

Currently, there is no specific allocation of social workers to implement the Children’s Amendment Bill. As I’ve said before, services to children are, just like with older persons, provided by social workers in government and in the NGO sector. In most provinces social workers render generic services and do not focus specifically on children. However, the provincial departments of social development are considering the need for social workers to specialise in child care and protection services. So, there is an ongoing investigation. There is a new category of child and youth care workers and the development of that as a profession. But right at this moment social workers are rendering generic services and do not specifically focus on children.

Again, we acknowledge that, considering the total number of social workers required to implement the new child care legislation and the number of social workers available - even though there are more social workers than what the low-cost scenario indicates - very clearly there is a need for more social workers and, as members are aware, there is a strategy for the retention and recruitment of social workers, as I have already said. Thank you.

Extension of child support grant to all disadvantaged children under the age of 18 years

1. Ms B L Matlhoahela asked the Minister of Social Development:

   Whether the child support grant will be extended to all disadvantaged children under the age of 18 years; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? C572E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Thank you, Chairperson. The answer to this question is that Cabinet has approved that the social cluster investigate measures to respond to the needs of vulnerable children between the ages of 14 and 18 years. During this investigation, the social sector cluster will endeavour to identify all the needs of these children.

It is anticipated that all children in need will be provided with a range of supportive services in an integrated and holistic manner that will effectively alleviate their plight. We are in the early stages of investigating these policy options on assistance to these children, and wish to indicate that the interventions may or may not necessarily include income support. We cannot at this early stage of the investigation be specific about the outcomes and potential of the policy recommendations.

See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.

The Council adjourned at 16:28. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

                        MONDAY, 19 MARCH 2007

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Assent by President in respect of Bill

(a)    Accreditation for Conformity Assessment, Calibration and Good
     Laboratory Practice Bill [B 29B – 2006] – Act No 19 of 2006
     (assented to and signed by President on 12 March 2007).

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Defence

Strategic Business Plan for the Department of Defence for the financial    years 2007-
2008 and 2009-2010 [RP 25-2007].

1. The Minister of Finance

(a)    Government Notice No R. 194 published in Government Gazette No
     29670 dated 09 March 2007: Amendment of Schedule No 1 ( No
     1/1/1331), made in terms of section 48 of the Customs and Excise
     Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).


(b)    Government Notice No R. 195 published in Government Gazette No
     29670 dated 09 March 2007: Amendment of Schedule No 1 ( No
     1/1/1332), made in terms of section 48 of the Customs and Excise
     Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).


(c)    Government Notice No R. 196 published in Government Gazette No
     29670 dated 09 March 2007: Amendment of Schedule No 2 ( No 2/283),
     made in terms of section 56 of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964
     (Act No 91 of 1964).


(d)    Government Notice No 212 published in Government Gazette No
     29658 dated 23 March 2007: Draft Municipal Regulations on Minimum
     Competency Levels made in terms of section 168(1) of the Municipal
     Finance Management Act, 2003 (Act No 56 of 2003).

(e)    Government Notice No 189 published in Government Gazette No
     29683 dated 01 March 2007: Determination of interest rates for
     purposes of Paragraph (a) of the Definition of “Official Rate of
     Interest” in Paragraph 1 of the Seventh Schedule to the Income Tax
     Act, 1962 (Act No 58 of 1962).

(f)    Government Notice No 187 published in Government Gazette No
     29669 dated 09 March 2007: Listing and delisting of Public
     Entities, made in terms of section 47 and 48 of the Public Finance
     Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999).


                       TUESDAY, 20 MARCH 2007

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Council of Provinces

1. Report of the Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs on the Convention on the Physical Protection of Nuclear Material, dated 20 March 2007:

The Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs, having considered
the request for approval by Parliament of the Convention on the Physical
Protection of Nuclear Material, referred to it, recommends that the
Council, in terms of Section 231 (2) of the Constitution, approve the
said Convention.

Report to be considered.