TUESDAY, 29 MAY 2007 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
                                ____

The Council met at 10:03.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY

                              ECONOMICS
                             (Cluster 3)

MINISTERS:

 Strategic management model to address science and technology system

1. Mr T S Setona (ANC) asked the Minister of Science and Technology:

   How far is his department with the implementation of a new strategic management model to address the lack of a strategic approach to the management of the state-funded portion of the science and technology system? C560E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Chairperson, the Department of Science and Technology has made substantial progress in the implementation of the recommendations, as outlined in the approved Cabinet memo of 6 October 2004 on the new strategic management model.

Some recommendations have been implemented and progress has been made with others. The CSIR was transferred from the Department of Trade and Industry to the Department of Science and Technology with effect from 1 April 2005. The CSIR board was appointed for a period of three years, effective from 1 January 2006.

Budget options for regenerating the research and development capacity of the CSIR was incorporated into the DST budget proposal to Treasury. The National Treasury has gradually increased the baseline allocation for all public entities.

Regarding the appointment of DST representatives onto boards reporting to line departments, DST representatives were appointed to the boards of the Agricultural Research Council, Mintek, National Energy Research Institute, Water Research Commission, SA National Biodiversity Institute and the Nuclear Energy Corporation of South Africa. The DST is still awaiting appointment of a DST representative to the board of the Medical Research Council, which would be completed once the memorandum of understanding with the Department of Health is finalised.

The science Vote was dismantled with effect from 31 March 2005 and each line department now budgets individually for its research institutions. The DST has launched the science and technology managers’ forum to assist sector-specific departments in developing a national research and development plan that could be supported jointly.

Regarding the three-tiered MTEF Science and Technology expenditure plan, National Treasury has indicated that this will be included in the overall financial systems review and modifications in the 2007-08 financial year. I am sure the Minister of Finance will confirm that, if need be.

The DST has completed phase one of the project which dealt with data specifications, analysis and design concerning the implementation of the three-tiered MTEF plans in provinces. The DST is ready to proceed with phase two, which deals with systems design and implementation. The policy on governance standards has been completed and is presently being implemented by the science, engineering and technology institutions. The policy framework for the intellectual property derived from publicly- funded research has been developed and was approved by Cabinet in February

1. A draft Bill is being prepared on this matter. Thank you, Chairperson.

      Name-and-shame policy to enforce employment equity
   

2. Ms J F Terblanche (DA) asked the Minister of Labour:

   Whether he will make a statement on the so-called name-and-shame policy to enforce employment equity, as reported on in the media recently? C1001E

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We move to the second question asked by Ms Terblanche to the Minister of Labour. I don’t see the Minister of Labour in the House. I am not sure whether there is any Minister who has perhaps been requested to respond on his behalf?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Hon Chairperson, I am not responding on behalf of the Minister but we have information that the hon Minister is abroad. The information is that a written reply will be submitted to the member via the office of the chairperson.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Ms Terblanche, can you allow my office to follow that up.

          Tax on windfall profits in liquid fuels industry

1. Ms J F Terblanche (DA) asked the Minister of Finance:

   (1) Whether the Government intends instituting a tax on windfall profits in the liquid fuels industry; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what will be the impact of such a tax on the prospects to increase our inland liquid fuels production;

   (2) whether he will make a statement on the matter? C1002E

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chair, this matter has been dealt with for a while now. The first time we raised it was in the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, which I tabled in Parliament on 25 October 2005 – nobody noticed.

We dealt with the matter subsequently in the Budget Review tabled in Parliament on 15 February 2006 – nobody noticed it there. People insist that I said something about taxing synthetic fuels in my Budget Speech on 15 February 2006, when in fact I didn’t say anything about it.

The task team has done its work. It has concluded its report. We indicated in the Budget Review on 23 February this year that we would engage with the industry and report by no later than 31 July. As I stand here, Chair, I can say that there is ongoing discussion. There is a task team formed at a technical level between, certainly, the companies engaged in the production of synthetic fuels and the National Treasury. From time to time the chief executives of the companies and I confer. We are quite happy with the progress made by the task team. Certainly, we will report to Parliament at a more appropriate time. Thank you.

Measures to record and control furniture leaving parliamentary villages

1. Mr A Watson (DA) asked the Minister of Public Works:

   Whether any measures were instituted to record and control the unchecked loads of furniture leaving the parliamentary villages during the upgrading of houses for Members of Parliament and staff; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?

           C1003E
   

UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEMISEBENZI YOMPHAKATHI: Sihlalo, ngithanda nje ukusho ukuthi lo mbuzo sengiwubuzwa okwesibili yiqembu elilodwa, yize-ke omunye wawubuzwe eMkhandlwini kaZwelonke mayelana nokuthi izimpahla lezi esizithatha ezindlini zaMalungu ePhalamende, njengoba silungisa e-Acacia Park, ziye zishonephi; nokuthi ngabe ikhona yini indlela esizibheka ngayo ukuze zingayi lapho kungafanele khona.

Ngifuna-ke ukuphendula ilungu elihloniphekile uWatson ngokulitshela ukuthi, ngokomthetho, uma sisusa izimpahla, ikakhulukazi ezindlini kumbe ezakhiweni zikahulumeni, noma ngabe kusemahhovisi noma ezindlini lapho kuhlala khona amalungu eNdlu, siye sizithathe lezo zimpahla bese sibhala phansi ukuthi yini esiyithathe endlini ethile, sizihambise-ke ezindaweni zoMnyango Wezemisebenzi Yomphakathi zokugcina impahla.

Ngemuva kwalokho siye sibuze ezinye izinhlaka zikahulumeni noma iMinyango ukuthi ngabe azikho yini izinto abazifunayo kulezo zimpahla esisuke sizithathile. Siye sizinikeze leyo Minyango-ke uma izifuna. Uma leyo Minyango ingazidingi, siyazithengisa endalini evulelekele noma ubani bese imali etholakale lapho iye esikhwameni sikahulumeni. Kanjalo-ke nakulolu hlelo lwezinto esizithathe e-Acacia Park, sisebenze ngaleyo ndlela. Ngiyabonga, Sihlalo.

Mnu A WATSON: Sihlalo, ngithanda ukubuza ngilandelise kulowo mbuzo obubuziwe ngaphambilini. Into engididayo maqondana nalezi zimpahla ebezikulezi zindlu zaMalungu ePhalalamende e-Acacia Park ukuthi ngizibonele ngamehlo ami zikhishwa ezindlini, zifakwa emalolini zabe seziphuma ngesango. Angimbonanga-ke umabhalane obebala ukuthi zimpahla zini lezi ezikhishwe ezindlini zafakwa elolini. Uma seziphuma-ke lezi mpahla ngesango lase-Acacia Park, asazi ukuthi mhlawumbe lelo loli lizokuma endleleni yini noma mhlawumbe ezinye zizowa yini. [Uhleko.] Iyona-ke le nto engididayo. Mhlawumbe ungake uphinde ungichazele kabanzi ngaleyo ndaba? [Uhleko.] UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEMISEBENZI YOMPHAKATHI: Sihlalo, ngiyabonga kwilungu elihloniphekile. Manje-ke okubuhlungu ukuthi ilungu elihloniphekile lisuke labhala phansi, langaphakamisa ucingo langitshela kuseyisikhathi ukuthi, “Nakhu bo ngibona izimpahla zingena elolini! Phuthumani!” Kodwa-ke uma ilungu linayo imininingwane ethize engangisiza, ngingathokoza ukuthi ngiyithole ukuze ngenze uphenyo. Ngiyabonga kakhulu.

Mnu M A MZIZI: Okuvuka laphaya empendulweni kaNgqongqoshe, siselapho ezimpahleni ezisuswayo ezindlini njengoba kulungiswa, ngakube uMnyango kaNgqongqoshe wakubhekelela yini ukuthi kube khona abahloli abahlola lezi zimpahla ezisusiwe, nokuthi eziphindiswayo zisazophindiselwa zonke yini lapho kwakufanele ziphindele khona?

Ngibuza kanje ngoba kubonakala okuningi laphaya – ngiyakholwa bazongifakazela bonke labo abasezindlini osekulungiswe kuzo – njengokuthi ezinye zezimpahla ezazisusiwe azibange zisaphindiselwa ezindaweni ezazithathwe kuzo ukuze zibe khona kulezo zindawo. Sisahlupheka namanje sizama ukubiza labo ababelungisa, futhi sihlale sithi, “Wozani phela nizoqedela umsebenzi.” Kodwa sebekhokhelwe laba bantu. Asiboni-ke ukuthi lokhu ngabe kuyosisiza, ukuthi kuthi sekulungisiwe kepha kube khona ezinye izinto esikhala ngazo, ezazikhona kodwa ezingasaphindiselwanga.

UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEMISEBENZI YOMPHAKATHI: Ngiyabonga kakhulu elungwini elihloniphekile, uMzizi, ngombuzo eliwubuzile. Kodwa ekulungiseni kwethu laphaya, ikakhulukazi e-Acacia Park nakwezinye-ke izindawo lapho silungisa khona, sivamise ukukhuluma namalungu. Siye sibe nemihlangano yebhodi yezokuphatha lapho sihlala khona sivumelane ukuthi sizokwenza lokhu nalokhu, kule ndawo nakuleya ndawo. Ebhodini yezokuphatha izindawo zamalungu, kuye kube khona amalungu amakomidi abahlali bakuleyo naleyo paki. Siye sithembe-ke ukuthi lawo malungu aye abuyele emiphakathini yasezindaweni zamalungu afike asho ukuthi, “Njengoba kuzokwenziwa lolu hlelo lokulungisa kabusha, nazi izinto ezizokwenziwa, nazi ezinye ezingeke zenziwe.”

Sengike ngaba nomhlangano namanye aMalungu Ephalamende kuleli sonto elidlule. Ngokwami, isithombe engisitholile ukuthi, amaningi kulawa makomidi abahlali awasebenzi. Ngiyaxolisa ngokusho njalo. Uthola ukuthi aMalungu Ephalamende ezindaweni eziningi lapho ehlala khona awazi kahle hle ngezinhlelo okuvunyelwene ngazo. Maqondana nalezo zinto osuzibalulile, kwesinye isikhathi njengoba sisuke silungisa siye sivumelane ukuthi sizozisusa zonke lezi zinto ezikhona. Ezinye zazo sizisusa ngoba sezimoshakele kakhulu kanti ezinye ngoba singeke siphinde sizibuyisele, ezinye mhlawumbe sisazozibuyisela. Kuba amalungu ashoyo-ke athi, “Cha, yenzani ngale ndlela, ningenzi ngaleya ndlela.”

Nasi isibonelo: Esinye isikhalo esike savela kubantu abangomama abahlala emapaki sithe, “Besinazo izitulwana zokuthi sizitomote sibe bahle laphaya, kodwa manje sezisukile.” Siye sathi-ke, “Cha, siyakuzwa lokhu enikushoyo. Impela besizithathile futhi singeke sisazibuyisela. Sizonibhekela ezizohambisana nale fenisha esesiyifakile ukuze sibhekelele nezidingo zenu zokuzilungisa nibe bahle.”

Sithemba-ke ukuthi lowo myalezo wafika komama abangabahlali ezindaweni ezingamapaki ahlala amalungu. Uma ungafikanga, mangixolise. Kodwa esivumelane ngakho nalawa malungu engihlangane nawo ngesonto elidlule ukuthi sizophindela emhlanganweni webhodi bese siphinde sicela ukuhlangana namakomidi abahlali ngepaki ngepaki.

Okunye esizokwenza, uma sizovumelana namalungu amaqembu ezepolitiki, ukuthi sitshele amakhokhasi amaqembu ngamaqembu ngalokho esikwenza e-Acacia Park ukuze siqinisekise ukuthi wonke umuntu oyiLungu lapha ePhalamende wazi kahle ukuthi senzani, nokuthi inhloso yalokho ukuthi sifinyelele kuphi.

Mnu S SHICEKA: Sihlalo, ebengithanda ukukwazi nje ukuthi, ngabe kubantu abenza umsebenzi, izinkontileka, sikhona yini esivumelwaneni isigatshana sokubahlawulisa uma bengawenzi umsebenzi ngesikhathi? Ngingakusho ngokunanazi ukuthi, lapho ngihlala khona mina, kuthatha isikhathi eside kakhulu ngaphambi kokuba ilungiswe indlu. Ngicabanga ukuthi manje izinyanga zithi azibe ntathu ngaphuma. Sekungeyesine le nyanga kulungiswa indlu yami yodwa. Manje angikabuyi nokubuyela endlini, ngisahlala endlini encanyana laphaya. Zonke lezi zinyanga ezine kulokhu kulungiswa indlu eyodwa? Engifuna ukukwazi-ke ukuthi ngabe sikhona yini isigatshana sokubahlawulisa laba bantu ngoba phela ngaleyo ndlela kusho ukuthi laba ngabantu abazithathela amashansi, abangawazi umsebenzi wabo, abangazi nokuthi kuyaphuthuma ukuthi abantu babuyele endaweni yabo yokuhlala, kwenzinwe umsebenzi? Ngiyabonga, Sihlalo.

UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEMISEBENZI YOMPHAKATHI: Sihlalo, ngiyabonga kwilungu elihloniphekile. Isigatshana sokuhlawulisa sihlale sikhona kuzo zonke izivumelwano esizenzayo. Kodwa ngifuna ukubuyela emuva, ngoba, ikakhulukazi uma silungisa izindawo lapho kuhlala khona abantu, noma ngabe amahhovisi, okuningi kuye kushintshe kwesinye isikhathi.

Noma lukhona uhlaka lwesikhathi olubekiwe, uthola ukuthi uma sesibenzisana namakomidi nalabo bantu abathintekile, kuke kuthiwe, “Cha, ake nime kancane. Ningangeni ngempelasonto. Ake nime kancane ningakwenzi ukuthi nokuthi.” Lokho kwandisa izinsuku. Ngesinye isikhathi lokho kusuke kungelona iphutha lenkontileka. Ngesinye isikhathi inkinga iba sekutheni, thina nalabo bantu esisebenzisana nabo ekulungiseni leso sizinda kumbe leyo ndlu yiziphi izinkinga esihlangabezana nazo.

Yingakho-ke ngithe sizohlangana kanye nebhodi lezokuphatha zonke izindawo ezihlala amalungu, siphinde sihlale namakomidi abahlali, ngoba kucacile ukuthi abaningi – ngokuzwa kwethu uma sikhuluma nalaba bantu abeza bazobika udaba – abazanga ukuthi uhlelo luzohamba kanjani, izinkinga ezibikiwe kwenziwe njani ngazo. Njengokuthi nje uma sithe, mhlawumbe, masi-ke sime lapha ngomsebenzi.

Ngakho-ke sithola ukuthi thina siyakhuluma nebhodi kodwa amalungu ekomidi labahlali angayi konitshela ukuthi, “Nazi izinkinga. Nithi masenze njani?” Yingenxa yalokho-ke sesithi mhlawumbe sesizokwenza okungemnandi ngokuthi sithi ake siye kokhuluma namalungu ngqo manje ukuze sizwe wona ukuthi athini ngalolu daba.

USIHLALO WOMKHANDLU KAZWELONKE WEZIFUNDAZWE: Usekhona omunye umbuzo wokugcina? Uma ungekho siyadlula. UNgqongqoshe ubecelile ukuthi asale esephendula nombuzo wesibili. Ngiye ngamvumela ukuthi enze kanjalo. Ngiyethemba ukuthi ozakwabo ngeke bakhubeke ngoba bake bangithethisa kabuhlungu ngelinye ilanga. Ungaqhubeka-ke Ngqongqoshe nombuzo 58, okungumbuzo obuzwe uWindvoel kuNgqongqoshe Wezemisebenzi Yomphakathi. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Chairperson, I would like to mention that this particular question is being asked for the second time now, at least by one political party. The question was first asked by a certain member in the National Assembly. The member wanted to know as to where we put the items that we remove from members’ houses at Acacia Park parliamentary village as we are busy with renovations there. The member also wanted to know whether we have any monitoring mechanisms in place to make sure that such items do not go where they are not supposed to go. I want to respond to the hon member Watson by telling him that, by law, if we remove such items, particularly in government buildings, be it offices or even houses where members reside, we normally take those items and record their serial numbers and the houses from which such items were removed. After that we then take such items to the storehouse belonging to the Department of Public Works.

After that we ask other government structures or government departments if there is anything that they need from the items that we have taken. We then give them to those departments if they need them. If those departments do not need them, we then auction them off and the proceeds go to the government account. The same process will also apply to the items removed from Acacia Park parliamentary village. Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr A WATSON: Chairperson, I would like to ask a follow-up question. What confuses me about these items which were in the houses of the Members of Parliament at Acacia Park, is that I saw these items being removed and loaded onto trucks and the trucks drove off with them. I did not see any clerk recording the serial numbers of the items which were removed from the houses. And we do not know whether the said truck stopped somewhere immediately after leaving Acacia Park parliamentary village and other items could have fallen off the truck along the way. [Laughter.] And this is exactly what confuses me. Can you perhaps elaborate on that issue? [Laughter.]

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Chairperson, I thank the hon member. Well, the problem here is that the hon member decided to write this down as a question. The member could have picked up the telephone and called me to say, “I see items here being loaded onto a truck! Hurry up!” However, if the member has certain information that could help me, I would be happy if such information could be forwarded to me so that I can conduct the necessary investigation. Thank you very much.

Mr M A MZIZI: A follow-up question on the Minister’s response. Whilst we are still on that issue of the items which were removed from the houses as they were being renovated, I wish to know whether the department had a plan to have inspectors to monitor the movement of the said items as they were being removed from the houses. This would have helped in making sure that items go where they were supposed to go and that those which were to be returned would be returned without hassles.

I am asking this question because many of the items which were removed from different houses were not all returned, despite those houses having been renovated. Certain items were not even taken back to the houses from which they were removed. We still hopelessly run after those who were renovating the houses to come and finish their job. Yet these people have already been paid for this job. We therefore, do not believe this is helping anybody because whilst we are supposed to be happy about the renovations, we are still not happy about certain items that are not been returned.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Thank you very much, hon member Mzizi, for the question you asked. Generally when we do our renovations, particularly in Acacia Park parliamentary village and other areas where we are renovating, we usually consult members. We would hold meetings with the regulatory board where we sit down and agree on what is going to happen, where, and how. Usually, the regulatory board monitoring the renovation process would consist of residents of that particular area. We generally believe that those people forming part of the regulatory board would go back to the community of members and report that, “As we are going to have this renovating programme, here are the things which are going to be done, and here are the things which are not going to be done.”

I had a meeting with other Members of Parliament last week. The impression I got was that, most of these committees are dysfunctional and I am sorry to say that. You find that Members of Parliament, in most places where they live, do not really know about the programmes that we agreed on.

With regard to those crucial things, sometimes during our renovations, we agree that we are going to remove certain things. Some of them are removed because they are damaged and they are not returned whilst others are returned. It’s usually members who dictate to us that, “No, do it this way, don’t do it that way, etc.”

Here is an example: One of the complaints we received from female members who stay in parliamentary villages was that they had chairs in their houses which they used for their make-up, and those chairs were removed. We responded by telling them that we understand their complaint to be a genuine one. That was very true because we had indeed removed the chairs there and we were not going to return them, but we told them that we were going to look for the ones that would match those chairs and place them in their houses so as to cater for the beauty needs of the female members.

We just hope that this message reached the female members staying at the parliamentary villages. If it did not reach them, I apologise, but what we are agreed upon with the members that I met last week was that we are going to have a meeting with the regulatory board and then ask for another meeting with the residents committee for each parliamentary village.

The other thing that we are going to do, if we agree with members of political parties, is to inform the parties’ caucuses about what we are doing at Acacia Park parliamentary village for the purpose of making sure that everybody who is a Member of Parliament knows what we are doing, and the reasoning behind it.

Mr S SHICEKA: Chairperson, I want to know whether you have a policy in place which guides the people who do the job for you, that is the contractors, and a policy that would enable the department to fine the contractors if they do not finish their job on time. I can say without any fear of contradiction that where I stay, it takes a long time to renovate a house. I think it is now approximately three months since I left that house. This is the fourth month now and only my house is still being renovated. I have not yet returned to that house. I am still staying in a small house there. Now, for the entire four months, are they still renovating one house?

What I actually want to know is whether there is any policy in place which can be used to fine these people if they are found to be wanting because we cannot allow this to go on like this, with these people taking chances as they are doing. One can even see that these people do not know their job, and they are not even aware that people have to return to their houses. What must be done? Thank you, Chairperson.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Chairperson, I thank the hon member very much. There is always a provision for fines in all contracts that we sign. However I, want to go back a little bit because, when we renovate houses and offices, certain things sometimes change.

There is usually a time frame, but you find that in certain instances as we work with committees and other stakeholders, it is these very committees and stakeholders who would say to contractors, “No, man, can you suspend your operations a little bit. Do not work on weekends. Do not do this and that.” All this increases the number of days for that particular project. Sometimes that is not the fault of the contactor. Sometimes the problem would be the many hindrances that we and our contractors who renovate those centres or houses come across.

That is why I therefore said to you that we will meet with the board in charge of places where members live, and also the residents committee to discuss this matter. It is clear to us – taking all your views into account – that not all things were reported to you. They did not explain the unforeseen problems that could occur and the results thereof, like when the contractors are told to put the renovating process on hold.

What actually happens is that whilst we do talk with the board and the residents committee, they in turn do not go back to you to report and say, “Here are the problems that we have. What must we do?” It is against this background now that we are going to do what we did not want to do. We will approach the members directly and hear what they are saying about this matter.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is there any other follow-up question? If none, then let us proceed. The Minister requested to also respond to the second question, and I agreed. I hope that her colleagues will not be saddened by that because I remember the other day when they admonished me seriously. Minister, you can now continue with question 58, which was asked by the hon Windvoël to the Minister of Public Works.]

Employment through Expanded Public Works Programme, and steps to ensure local communities benefit from 2010 Soccer World Cup tournament preparations

1. Mr V V Z Windvoël (ANC) asked the Minister of Public Works:

   (1) How many people have been employed in each province through the Expanded Public Works Programme since its establishment;

   (2) whether any links have been established with companies involved in the preparation for the 2010 Soccer World Cup tournament to ensure that local communities benefit from these economic activities; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? C1010E

INDVUNA YETEMISEBENTI YEMIMANGO: Mphatsisihlalo, angisho nje kutsi ngiyabonga kutsi ungivumele ngiphendvule yonkhe lemibuto yami ngekushesha. Ngikhulume nabo bonkhe balingani bami batsi kulungile kutsi ngingaphendvula. Ngako-ke, ngeke bese balwa nawe ngaloko, njengobe bake benta ngembili. Umbuto lobutwe lilunga lelihloniphekile, babe Windvoël, kutsi ingabe sebangakhi bantfu lase batfole imisebenti Kuloluhlelo Lwekwakhiwa Kwemisebenti Yemiphakatsi lesitsi yi-Expanded Public Works, kusukela yacala? Kwesibili, ngulokutsi ngabe ngukuphi lesikwentako kuze sikwati kusebentisana naletinye tinkampani, ikakhulu leto letakha titediyamu naleminye imisebenti lephatselene neluhlelo lwetemidlalo yanga 2010?

Ngitsandza kuphendvula-ke kutsi kusukela ngemnyaka wanga 2004 ngesikhatsi kusungulwa Loluhlelo Lwekwakhiwa Kwemisebenti Yemiphakatsi kudzimate kube yiNgongoni nga-2006, singasho kutsi ematfuba emisebenti letfolakele kulo lonkhe lelive lakitsi abalelwa ku-573 269 yebantfu lasebatfole lemisebenti.

Nangingabalisa-ke njengobe bekasho kwekutsi iprovinsi ngeprovinsi ingabe yona ihlomule kangakanani, singasho sitsi: e-Eastern Cape babe ngu-49 952, eFree State-37 784, eGauteng-108 894, KwaZulu-Natal-182 905, eLimpopo-37 395, eMpumalanga-43 932, eNorthern Cape-25 070, eNorth West 23 786, eWestern Cape 63 551.

Singasho-ke sitsi, yebo kona siyajabula ngalomsebenti lesesiwentile, kepha sitsite nasibuka njengahulumende sabona kutsi kunyenti lokunye lesingakwati kukwenta kuze siphucule lamanani lesinawo bateba banyenti bantfu labasebentako. Ngiko nje sike satsi kubuka tindlela letinyenti talesingakwenta kuze sitfutfukise lamatfuba emisebenti ngekwenta imisebenti yebantfu njengahulumende. Lokunye lengingakusho kutsi, yebo akukho mhlawumbe kutsintsana kahle hle nebantfu betimboni ngoba phela usuke ubacela kutsi abente loko lemhlayimbe bebangakakubhajetheli kutsi batakwenta. Noko angisho nje kutsi labanyenti babo ababukeki bangabata kutsi bangasebentisana natsi.

Njenganyalo nje, sikhulumisana nebaseMbombela kwekutsi bangeke yini batsatse, mhlayimbe Kuloluhlelo Lwavelonkhe Lwetinsita Talabasha, bantfwana labalinani lelitsite labangabacecesha babe bochwephesha, bese baphindze bayabacasha njengobe kutabe kwentiwa lomzila wesitimela nje.

Ngetsemba kutsi naletinye tinkampani nasikhulumisana nato, njengobe senta, titawuvuma kutsi tingasebentisana natsi kwakha ematfuba emisebenti babuye banikete nemakhono, ikakhulu kubantfu labasha. Ngiyabonga.

SOSISWEBHU WEMKHANDLU WETIFUNDA: Mgcinisihlalo, ngibonga kakhulu nemphendvulo lesiyitfole eNdvuneni yelitiko. Ngitawucela nje kwekutsi njengobe abephendvule washeshisa kakhulu, kwatise kutsi abephutfuma, angikabe ngisakhona kutibhala phansi tonkhe letinkhulungwane labekatisho ngekwetifundza tato.

Ngicela kutsi iNdvuna imane isisite kutsi lemphendvulo yayo siyitfole ibhalwe phansi. Ngiyacabanga kutsi emalunga lamanyenti etifundza angasitakala kuloko, njengobe sibuyela kumaprovinsi etfu nje. Loko kutawusita ekutseni sikwati kwendlala lombiko unjengobe unjalo.

Lokunye lebengingatsandza kukwati kutsi ingabe kukhona yini iNdvuna lengasichushisa kuko, kwekutsi njengobe Singemalunga ePhalamende natsi sikhone kugcugcutela kutsi kube khona kusebentisana emkhatsini wetimboni.

Mhlawumbe besingasita nalabasha betfu kutsi Kuletinhlelo Tavelonkhe Tetinsita Talabasha, nabo bakhone kutisondzeta kuletimboni ngekwehlukana kwemaprovinsi njengobe natsi sinaboma-TSB, nabo-SEBI lena eMpumalanga, kuze bakhone kuba yincenye yabo. Bengifuna kwati kutsi kungabe ikhona yini indzima iNdvuna leyibonako lengadlalwa Ngemalunga ePhalamende kuloko?

INDVUNA YETEMISEBENTI YEMIPHAKATSI: Mphatsisihlalo, angisho nje kutsi lemphendvulo ikhona, babe Wendvoël, ngingakunika nje nanyalo. Wena-ke sewungayitsatsa uyandzise kuze onkhe lamalunga akhone kuyitfola lemphendvulo.

Kwesibili, kulombuto lilunga leliwubutile, ngeke ngitsatse sikhatsi semalunga kanye Netindvuna labanginike sona, ngitsi ngiyetsembisa kutsi njengobe ngitabe nginani lapha ngaLesine nasikhuluma Ngelwabiwomali Lwetemisebenti Yemiphakatsi; ngitawuchaza kabanti kutsi ngukuphi lapho ningasita khona nine njengemalunga aleNdlu yePhalamende. Loko kutasisita kuze sikwati kutfola bantfu betimboni basebentisane natsi, ikakhulu Kuloluhlelo Lwavelonkhe Lwetinsita Talabasha. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of Siswati paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Chairperson, I would like to thank you for allowing me to briefly answer all my questions. I have made this request to all my colleagues and they have allowed me to proceed. I therefore do not expect that any of them will raise any concerns as previously done.

The question asked by the hon Mr Windvoël was, how many people have got jobs through the Expanded Public Works Programme, since its inception? Secondly, he wanted to know what we were doing to ensure co-operation with the various construction companies especially those involved in building stadiums and other infrastructure necessary for the 2010 soccer games.

In response to that, I would like to say that since the year 2004, at the initiation of the Expanded Public Works Programme, to December 2006, 573 269 people got employment opportunities.

To give an exact account according to each province, seeing that this was his question specifically: In the Eastern Cape there were 4952, in the Free State 37 784, in Gauteng 108 894, in KwaZulu-Natal 182 905, in Limpopo 37 399, in Mpumalanga 43 932, in the Northern Cape 25 070, in the North West 23 786 and in the Western Cape 63 551. When we looked at these numbers we were indeed very happy with the work that we had done, but upon closer inspection as government, we found that there is still much that can be done to improve them. That is why we are now looking at the different options available to improve the possibilities of job creation.

One other thing that can be said is, yes, maybe we have not been communicating adequately with relevant people in the different industries because one, in fact, would be asking them to go beyond their call of duty. But I am glad that the ones we have been in contact with have been keen to work with us.

At this point we are in the process of talking to people in the Mbombela Municipality to see whether they cannot take a certain number of children from the National Youth Development Programme, to train them in the specialised fields so that they may employ them in the building of the train tracks.

I hope than even other companies when we approach them and negotiating as we are doing, they will agree to work with us in creating job opportunities and empowering the youth with skills.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Chairperson, I thank the Minister for his reply. I would just like to make a request - since he was quick in giving these replies - that he makes available to me a copy of the numbers that were being quoted, according to each province. I hope that the Minister will be able to assist us in this regard, so that even the representatives of the different provinces may have access to them as we each return to our respective provinces. This report will also assist us to present it in its original form.

Another thing that I would like to know is whether there are any words of advice that the Minister may give us, so that, as Members of Parliament, we can continue to encourage co-operation amongst key industry role players.

Regarding youth development programmes, the aim is that they work with industries in the different provinces through programmes such as the TSB that we have and the SEBI in Mpumalanga. I would also like to know from the Minister if there is a part that he feels can be played by Members of Parliament in this regard.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Chairperson, the written reply is available and I would be happy to make it available to the hon Windvoël. It is now up to him to make copies for the rest of the members.

In reply to the second question that the member asked, I will not take up much of the members’ and the Ministers’ time as was allocated to me because I trust that I will be here with you on Thursday when we talk about the Budget allocation to the Department of Public works; in which case I will be in a position to explain in detail what role the members can play. This will assist us to get the role-players in the industry to work with us especially in the Youth Development Programme. I thank you.]

Measures to curb issuing of illegal driving licences and amend regulations iro new credit card format licences

1. Mr A Watson (DA) asked the Minister of Transport:

   (1) Whether any measures are in place to curb the issuing of illegal driving licences; if not, why not; if so, what measures;

   (2) whether he will consider amending the regulations for replacing old type driving licences with the new credit card driving licences by (a) relaxing present measures that compel late applicants to apply de novo for driving licences and (b) imposing heavy fines of as much as R100,00 for late applications, in addition to the normal statutory fees; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? C1004E

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: This question is from Mr Watson and is directed to the Minister of Transport. I am informed that the Deputy Minister of Science and Technology will stand in for the Minister because the Minister is abroad. I now hand over to the hon Deputy Minister to answer the question.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY (on behalf of the Minister of Transport): Chairperson, yes, several measures are in place to curb the issuing of illegal driving licences.

The manner in which a driving licence is to be issued is legislated in the National Road Traffic Act. This Act also governs the manner in which an examiner of driving licences should be registered, as well as the registration of driving licence testing centres. In addition to this, the legislation prescribes the powers and duties of the inspectorate of driving licences.

Emanating from the legislation, the National Traffic Information System also has several measures in place to ensure that legislation requirements are adhered to. A new component to the eNatis will be introduced soon, in order to further curb fraud in the environment of bookings for driving licences. The eNatis was also enhanced to create audit trails for all transactions performed, including queries. The driving licence book component is already part of the eNatis and will endeavour to address fraud currently being experienced with regard to block bookings by driving schools, for example. This component will also ensure that we have an audit trail of bookings made, for audit purposes.

It is envisaged that this component will be activated within the next month or so, or as soon as the environment has stabilised, after the introduction of the new eNatis system. The Department of Transport further endeavours to implement the computerised learner’s licence test. This will curb fraud, in the sense that applicants will not be able to obtain questions prior to the test.

The department, in conjunction with the Special Investigating Unit, conducts investigations and audits on a national basis at all testing centres and registering authorities. It is part of a master plan to root out fraud and corruption in the field of driving licence management. The role-players, together with the Department of Transport, are the National Intelligence Agency, the South African Police Service, the Directorate of Special Operations and, as mentioned previously, the Special Investigating Unit.

The second part of the question’s answer is rather lengthy. If you are happy if I proceed, I will do so. I’ve tried to reduce it a little bit, on behalf of the Minister of Transport, but it is a bit on the lengthy side.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You may continue.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: I should proceed? Thank you. It is important to note that there are two issues related to this question. The first one relates to the old driving licences contained in the green identity book, and the second relates to old paper card driving licences issued in former self-governing territories and those issued to persons without identity documents.

Starting off with the old driving licences contained in the green identity book: A notice appeared in the Government Gazette 25001, dated 28 February 2003, which determined the date on which all identity book licences referred to in section 18(6) of the National Road Traffic Act became invalid on 1 May 2003. All identity document driving licence holders who failed to convert to the credit card format driving licence are no longer in possession of a driving licence that is valid to drive within South Africa. Holders of identity document driving licences will therefore be expected to go through the process of applying for a learner’s licence through to the actual K53 driving test.

A notice was published in the Government Gazette dated 7 October 2003 for the purpose of providing exemptions for certain classes of persons who failed to convert. I won’t run through the exemptions for now, but it will be available to the hon member. If the person concerned was at any stage unable to apply between the period of 1 March 1998 and 30 April 2003 owing to any one of these exemptions, the person concerned was therefore unable to apply as required in the first sentence of section 18(6)(b) of the Act. For example, if a person was detained for only one day during the period, the person concerned was therefore unable to apply. When the holder of a driving licence contained in a South African identity document returns to South Africa and qualifies for exemption to convert the driving licence, such a person must apply within six months after their return to South Africa for the conversion of the said licence. This exemption does not permit such a person, however, to drive on roads until conversion has taken place and a temporary driving licence is issued. The department is currently considering terminating the provision for exemptions based on the presumption that people who had legitimate identity book type of driving licences had ample and reasonable time to convert, should they previously have been unable to do so.

Referring to the old paper card driving licences issued in former self- governing territories and those issued to persons without identity documents, the driving licence of the former TBVC countries and the self- governing territories may still be converted to the new credit card driving licence. The Department of Transport is currently considering terminating this provision on the presumption that people who had legitimate old-type driving licences had ample and reasonable time to convert, should they previously have been unable to do so.

There are fines in respect of law enforcement and penalties when a person converts his/her licence late. There are also two aspects when a person is stopped and checked in terms of driving licences. Both are dealt with in terms of section 12 of the National Road Transport Act. Firstly, a person must have a valid licence issued to him/her in terms of the National Road Traffic Act for the type of vehicle he/she is driving; and, secondly, the person must have proof of such driving licence on his/her person.

Should a person be stopped and such a person is not able to produce proof of driving licence, the officer may charge the person for not having a licence. If the person can later prove that he/she does have a licence issued to him/her, the charge may be reduced to driving without proof of a licence. The fines in respect of not being able to produce a valid licence or proof thereof are determined by the various magistrate’s offices and not by the Department of Transport. Penalties in the case of the old TBVC and self-governing territory licences are still to be considered. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): As we know, the Deputy Minister was responding on behalf of the Minister of Transport. It will be up to the Deputy Minister whether he will take follow-up questions. Hon Deputy Minister, are you going to take any follow-up questions?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Chairperson, I believe the hon member doesn’t insist on asking a follow-up question today. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Hon Watson, do you want to ask any follow-up questions?

Mr A WATSON: Madam, I think it would be unfair to ask a follow-up question, but I would like to say that the Minister has unfortunately missed my point. And I am not going to expect the stand-in Minister to take that up.

I think where Ministers are unable to answer questions in the House because they are overseas, I would plead that we rather postpone the question than to miss the opportunity to engage with a particular Minister.

I would like to thank you very much for the reply you gave. It is very extensive, but, unfortunately, it has missed the point. And, to quote eNatis at this stage, I think, is not a very good reference. Thank you. I’ll put one in writing.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Hon Watson, I think you are a member of the transport committee. Probably, it will be proper if you can just put those questions in that committee because the Minister is not here. I am saying you are member of the transport committee and perhaps the questions that you wanted to put as follow-up questions could be raised at committee level?

Fund to provide financial assistance to SMMEs in Northern Cape tourism industry

1. Ms B L Matlhoahela (ID) asked the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism:

   Whether his department has created any fund to provide financial assistance to small, medium and micro enterprises (SMMEs) in the tourism industry in the Northern Cape; if not, why not; if so, (a) since when has this fund been operating, (b)(i) how many and (ii) which SMMEs have benefited since its inception, (c) how many jobs have been created as a result of this fund and (d) who manages the fund? C1005E

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): We will proceed to Question 54. I am informed that the Minister is abroad, but the answer has been tabled. We will give a copy of that answer to the members.

Settlement agreement on agri-units for Griqua community in Northern Cape districts

1. Ms B L Matlhoahela (ID) asked the Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs:

   (1) How many agri-units were agreed to in the settlement agreement on agri-units to the Griqua community in Bucklands, Herbert District and Douglas in the Northern Cape;

   (2) whether there were any negotiations regarding additional agri- units for settlement; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details? C1006E

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Chairperson, the answer is quite short. Bucklands community consists of Xhosa people, Batswana and Griqua people. When this settlement process was under way, nine state-owned agricultural farms were offered to the Bucklands communal property association. The state is in the process of transferring these nine farms to the communal properties association.

The original claim of the community was for 21 farms, which included 12 privately owned farms. The matter of these 12 privately owned farms has been referred to court. I’m sorry that we cannot give more information at this stage until the proceedings of the court have been finalised.

It is a very interesting place. I’ve been there. It’s where the Vaal and Gariep Rivers run together, near Douglas. It’s beautiful land. It’s extremely valuable for possible tourism, game farming, agriculture and irrigation. We are awaiting the outcome of the court process. Thank you. Assistance provided in establishment and support of franchises

 56. Mr V V Z Windvoël (ANC) asked the Minister of Trade and Industry:

  (a) How many people were assisted by his department or any entities
  under his department to establish franchises since 2006, (b) how many
  of these franchises were established in each province and (c) what
  support are they receiving?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Dr R H Davies): Chairperson, the answer to part (a) of the question is that the Industrial Development Corporation has a programme which has assisted 138 franchises to create 3 500 jobs, and the National Empowerment Fund has supported eight franchises with funding, creating 232 jobs.

In respect of part (b), I can provide the hon member with a schedule, and this shows that the IDC’s support programme has supported franchises in all nine provinces. The total investment has been R207 million. Ranked by investment, the first of these is Gauteng, followed by the Western Cape, North West, Eastern Cape and then KwaZulu-Natal.

The National Empowerment Fund programme has supported franchises in three provinces, with an investment value of R20 million. The biggest is in the Eastern Cape, followed by Gauteng and then the Northern Cape.

With respect to part (c), operational support is normally provided by the franchisor in the form of site location, quality control, accounting systems, start-up practices and management training, and this is over and above the right to sell goods and services from the franchisor. If the Industrial Development Corporation deems it necessary that the franchisee needs additional support, such assistance can be provided from the IDC business support programme.

As far as the National Empowerment Fund is concerned, it has a dedicated post-investment management unit which offers mentorship services to those small enterprise owners, business people and franchisees in the general NEF portfolio. However, because franchisees are, by definition, operating an existing and proven business model, they are less likely to require this type of support than stand-alone small, medium and micro enterprise operators. Moreover, many franchisors run their own mentorship programme for franchisees. That said, any franchisee can, at any point, access business support services and mentorship through the post-investment management unit at the National Empowerment Fund.

The Small Enterprise Development Agency’s franchise support programme focuses on providing information and advice on matters relating to franchising when an entrepreneur considers that route into business. In the past financial year, Seda has held franchise information workshops throughout the provinces, and participated in franchise exhibitions which were mainly demand-driven in conjunction with their branches. Over 1 000 people attended these events.

Recently, Seda entered into a partnership with Hotdog Café and Builders’ Warehouse, with a view to creating opportunities for 20 young entrepreneurs from previously disadvantaged backgrounds. This project is being piloted in Gauteng province, and will be rolled out to the rest of the country later. Both Seda and the Hotdog Café will contribute to the training of the franchisees who will undergo a six-month training course. Thank you.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: House Chairperson, I thank the Deputy Minister for the offer to hand over the written response.

There is this mushrooming of plaza shopping complexes in the townships. In most instances, you find that there are some of these franchises in those shopping complexes. Most of the time, you find that the local people only participate in these franchises by giving their labour; they are not part of the ownership of those establishments.

Is the department perhaps considering coming up with a kind of BEE charter framework which will ensure that a certain percentage of the ownership of those franchises in the local shopping complexes takes on board the people in the local communities? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Dr R H Davies): Chairperson, I think that the question of decisions of who gets franchises and so on is largely a decision of the franchisors. I think it’s a model which we should say is a potential model of entry for BEE operators, because it is already a proven business operation and so on. But I don’t think that we should assume that all franchises are necessarily good in all respects, and I think that’s the basis on which Seda is prepared to offer advice and counselling, and also the other programmes that I mentioned.

With respect to charters for shopping complexes and so on, I think that the codes of good practice for BEE would apply, and would apply to any industry or sector which is seeking to do business with government, or is seeking access to regulatory benefits and so on. I am not actually aware of a process particularly for the development of a charter for plazas and that sector, but the broader code of practice would, in any case, apply to all industries and sectors, whether or not they have a charter. Thank you.

 Request for more land for yacht business at Cape Town Harbour, and
          attention to be given to ship-repairing business

1. Ms N D Ntwanambi (ANC) asked the Minister for Public Enterprises:

   (1) Whether he will request more land for the yacht business at Cape Town Harbour, as this is an international sport; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (2) whether the ship-repairing business at Cape Town Harbour will also be given attention; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? C1008E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Madam Chair … The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): No, this question is for the Minister for Public Enterprises, the hon Alec Erwin.

The MINISTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Thank you, Chairperson. It is bad when Science and Technology start to coup Public Enterprises. But we work very closely together, so I am happy for him to answer if he wants to.

Chairperson, I did actually deal with this during our debate, but let me just say that I am personally very supportive of the ship-building and yacht-building industry, having been party to that in its early days. The difficulty we face is that in the designs we have had for the Cape Town harbour, we had made more space for both the ship repair and possible boat and yacht-building activity. But, unfortunately, the process to extend the container terminal is proving to be very complex indeed, with objections mainly from the residents on the coastline to the north of the harbour. This delay is proving quite a difficult one, so we now have to redesign large parts of the port. Instead of using the expansion of the existing container terminal to enlarge the container terminal, we may have to redesign and pull the containers back. It is not optimal, and is causing us some difficulty.

So I am afraid, at this point, we cannot make any major or final decisions on exactly what we will do there, but we would certainly want to provide more space for both boatbuilding and ship repair. Nks N D NTWANAMBI: Ewe Mama uSihlalo ndinawo apha umbuzo olandelayo. Mphathiswa, phaya eCulemborg, kumhlaba kaTransnet, ikhona indawo endicinga ukuba iikhonteyina zingakwazi ukuhlala kuyo, ngoba zona azidingi manzi njengezinye ezi bendithetha ngazo kula mbuzo wam. Kunganjani ke ukuba isebe linokuyijonga nayo loo ndawo? (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[Ms N D NTWANAMBI: Yes, Chairperson, I do have a supplementary question. Minister, at Culemborg in the Transnet area, there is a spot at which I think we can place these containers because they do not require water like the ones I have referred to in my previous question. Would the department perhaps consider that?]

The MINISTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Chairperson, hon member, we need to consider all those areas, because in an efficient container terminal you need to stack the containers and then move them quickly to where they can be shipped onwards. In Cape Town it is not so common, but it can be that there could be transhipment. Mainly in the Cape, it is containers coming into the Cape economy and a smaller number going into the hinterland, or the economy of the interior. Big distances between offloading and where you are stacking, and where you want to tranship are not the most efficient design for a container terminal. So the way we will design that area is proving fairly complex. As I indicated, it is not an optimal situation. The costs of building new container facilities elsewhere are very high, indeed. In any event, in order to service Cape Town and surrounding economy we need more space.

So we are considering those options. We are considering the section just behind the current container terminal, but it poses a number of problems regarding how we move the trucks in and the trains out. It is causing us to have to redesign at some length.

Progress in implementing traffic control systems with a view to 2010 Soccer World Cup tournament

1. Mr V V Z Windvoël (ANC) asked the Minister of Transport:

   (1) What progress is his department making in ensuring that all provinces, particularly the ones that will host events relating to the 2010 Soccer World Cup tournament, implement traffic control systems to improve traffic flow and road safety;

   (2) whether the current pool of traffic officials will be sufficient to meet the demands of the hosting of the 2010 Soccer World Cup tournament; if not,

   (3) whether his department has taken any steps in this regard; if not, why not; if so, what steps? C1011E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY (on behalf of Minister of Transport): Chairperson, hon member, I think the answer is very clear. The two national committees, the Law Enforcement Technical Committee and the Public Transport Enforcement Committee, as well as a number of special 2010 Soccer World Cup preparatory committees at provincial and local authority levels, have been established to discuss road traffic management in a holistic fashion for the 2010 World Cup and beyond.

The Road Traffic Management Corporation’s directorate of enforcement co- ordination, together with all provinces and many local authorities, are involved in the rolling enforcement plan, which focuses on co-ordinated law- enforcement actions throughout the year. Special patrol units will also be established, first in Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, the Western Cape and the Free State, and then in the rest of the provinces. These units will comprise specially trained traffic officers in fully equipped vehicles, who will monitor hazardous locations and attend to special operations in their respective areas of jurisdictions.

Regarding the second part of the question, the current number of registered traffic officers will not be sufficient to meet the estimated demands and to ensure free flow of traffic and promote safety.

Regarding the third part of the question, the traffic training colleges will increase their capacity, and the maximum possible intake of trainee officers who meet the entry requirements will be accepted and trained. The implementation of the new year-long qualification has been placed on hold, and the status quo, the six-month course – with regard to the training of traffic officers - has been recommended until the traffic training colleges cater for the needs of 2010.

The Road Traffic Management Corporation has also offered assistance to traffic training colleges in regard to the facilitation and assessment of trainee officers. The possibility of training people as peace officers is also being investigated. This may pose a challenge, as the officers will be restricted in their powers because they will not be able to stop vehicles. Thank you.

Measures to ensure that certain enterprises and groups are beneficiaries of the 2010 Soccer World Cup tournament

1. Mr V V Z Windvoël (ANC) asked the Minister of Trade and Industry:

   (1) Whether his department has put any measures in place to ensure that local communities are active economic beneficiaries of the 2010 Soccer World Cup tournament prior to and during the event; if not, why not; if so, what measures; (2) whether such measures take into consideration the role of small, medium and micro enterprises (SMMEs), as active participants, in the economic activities that are geared towards the preparation for this tournament; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (3) whether these measures identify the youth, people with disabilities, women and rural communities as key beneficiaries; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? C1013E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Ms E Thabethe): Chairperson, we need to recognise that the Soccer World Cup in 2010 is a Fifa event which is being hosted in South Africa. In this regard, the principal responsibilities of the state are to create an enabling environment for a successful Fifa event and to maximise the economic impact by empowering local enterprises to take advantage of related opportunities.

The DTI is in the main charged with the responsibility of ensuring that the 2010 Fifa World Cup is treated as a protected event in terms of the Merchandise Marks Act. Under this Act, no legal person is allowed to associate themselves with the event without the permission of the organisers, particularly through practices known as ambush marketing.

Mega events may be designated as protected, provided that the event is in the public interest, and that the organisers create opportunities for local businesses, in particular those from previously disadvantaged communities. In this respect, the Minister of Trade and Industry is satisfied that the 2010 Fifa World Cup will be in the public interest and that opportunities will be created for local businesses, in particular small, medium and micro enterprises.

Further, the DTI has negotiated that 30% of the budget of the Local Organising Committee will be allocated to BEE and SMME businesses for procurement purposes. The BEE Act and the codes of good practice will inform tendering procedures of the Local Organising Committee.

The DTI has been mandated to analyse certain government instruments that have an impact on the organisation of mega sporting events in South Africa, and the DTI has identified the following areas in particular: firstly, the Merchandise Marks Act, which deals with actions against ambush marketing; secondly, infrastructure development for mega events which can benefit local communities after the event such as roads and rail; thirdly, public sector procurement instruments, which may include alignment of the Preferential Procurement Policy Framework Act, and the Broad-based Black Economic Empowerment Act, and other procurement activities linked to the 2010 World Cup programme; and, business development service interventions that need to be refocused and upscaled to support the ability of small enterprises to access the procurement opportunities arising from this event.

Regarding the second part of the question, both procurement legislation, that is broad-based black economic empowerment, and the Preferential Procurement Act, as well as business support services as described above are geared towards appropriating the greatest possible share of World Cup benefits for small, medium and micro enterprises. Moreover, the DTI has an agreement with the Local Organising Committee that will see 30% of the procurement spend going to SMME and BEE enterprises. The answer to the third part is that the DTI, in conjunction with other departments and spheres of government, intends to host workshops aimed at establishing how local enterprises, youth, people with disabilities, women and rural communities can benefit from World-Cup-related projects. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Hon members, I am informed that the Minister is abroad, and therefore question 61 will stand over.

Advantage of National Credit Regulator, and steps to scrap accounts older than three years

1. Ms N D Ntwanambi (ANC) asked the Minister of Trade and Industry:

   (1) What will the advantage of the National Credit Regulator be to an ordinary person;

   (2) whether any steps have been taken to ensure that accounts older than three years are scrapped so that they are not used against the account holder(s) when applying for credit; if not, why not; if so, what steps? C1022E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Dr R H Davies): Chairperson, the response to the first part of the question is that section 12 of the National Credit Act establishes the National Credit Regulator and mandates the NCR to promote and support the development of a fair, transparent, accessible and responsible credit market. Through the Act the National Credit Regulator will ensure the protection of consumer rights in the credit market, such as the consumer’s right to apply for credit and be protected against discrimination; the right to receive information in plain and understandable language; and the right of the consumer to raise complaints with the alternative dispute resolution agents, the ombud schemes such as the banking ombud, and the National Credit Regulator as well.

Overindebted consumers will have access to debt counselling services at minimal cost. The National Credit Regulator is also responsible for regulating the level of interest and fees payable on credit transactions, thus avoiding the exploitation of consumers. Market players such as credit granters, credit bureaus and debt counsellors are required to be registered with the National Credit Regulator, ensuring that their behaviour is monitored at all times. Through the public awareness and education programmes of the National Credit Regulator, ordinary consumers will get to know their rights and how to exercise them.

The answer to the second part is that the National Credit Act and its regulations limit periods for which different types of credit bureau information may be kept. For instance, adverse classifications of consumer behaviour can be kept for one year, adverse classifications of enforcement action for two years, and information relating to enquiries can be kept for two years and a consumer’s positive payment profile for five years.

Civil courts judgments are generally kept on a consumer’s record for five years. However, a special dispensation was introduced in terms of the Act, which allows for the earlier removal of information on certain types of judgments. Some of the most important categories that are affected are the following. Civil court judgments of up to R500 as of 1 September 2006 will be removed on 1 June 2007, as long as there are not more than two such unpaid judgments; civil court judgments of up to R5000 as of 1 September 2006 will be removed on 1 June 2007, as long as the judgment is older than 18 months and the consumer does not have more than two such unpaid judgments; and civil court judgments of up to R50 000 that were reflected on the consumer’s record on 1 September 2006 will be removed if the full amount of the judgment was paid by the consumer on 1 September 2007. Thank you.

Nksz N D NTWANAMBI: Ndiyabulela Sihlalo, isicelo sam sesokuba uBawo uSekela Mphathiswa andiphe eza mpendulo zakhe ngoku, kaloku ingxaki wena yeyokuba ndingumntu apha olihomba ngeendlebe. Ngelinye ixesha kuba nzima ukuva. Kwakhona ke nantsi enye into, ingaba isebe lakhe linayo na enye indlela eliza kuncedisana nabantu ngayo ukuze bawazi umthetho lo, ngoba badla ngokuthetha ngee-road shows nayo yonke le nto. Iza kuphinda yenzeke kusini na loo nto ukwenzela ukuba lo mthetho nale ndlela intsha abantu bayiqonde? (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[Ms N D NTWANAMBI: Thank you, Chairperson. I would like to request the hon Deputy Minister to provide me with a copy of his reply now because my hearing is not perfect. Sometimes I find it difficult to hear. Here is another question: Is there any way that his department could educate people about this Act? They usually talk about road shows or things like that. Will that happen again in order that people could learn about this Act and the new system?]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Dr R H Davies): Chairperson, I will certainly make a copy of the answers available to the hon member. Well, yes, the National Credit Regulator, as I indicated, is planning a series of information events, but I think that it could also be something which could be undertaken by members through their constituency offices. I am sure there will be information brochures, and I think those could be passed on through constituency offices. I think this will be a major change in our credit regime. I would also want to encourage the press to provide information on the new rights and the new services that are available.

This is ongoing work which we will monitor and, as necessary, we will try to improve communications if we see that messages are not getting through. But what is for sure is that we are not going to be prepared to put up any longer with a credit system which denies people access to credit on spurious grounds; discriminates unfairly against people; and provides reckless lending practices, unfair terms of payment and so on. So this is going to be a major change and we look forward to this benefiting our people in discernible and practical ways. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr A WATSON: Chair, I want to thank the Deputy Minister for giving us such a comprehensive answer. Just before I pose my question, I would ask that that particular answer, which is so concise, be distributed by the Table staff to all the members for use in constituencies.

To get back to my follow-up question, it’s not quite clear to me what happens to past entries at the credit bureaus? You know, so many of our people were coerced into debt that they simply could not afford, especially in the furniture trade. I have personally been involved in a number of cases where I have had to help people. However, inevitably, those bad debts get added onto the credit bureau’s ratings. If I understood the Minister correctly, those cut-off points also refer to the past; or is there a different dispensation for past entries at the different credit bureaus in regard to bad debt?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Dr R H Davies): Chairperson, I will pass this answer for this question on to the Table staff and they can distribute it to all members.

There are new rules which will apply when the Act comes into force on 1 June 2007 and which will provide for the amount of time for which information of different kinds can be held. I did indicate that. So, you can’t have adverse credit information held forever, from now on.

But, in addition to that, there are certain categories of credit information which have already been gathered, and which are already being used by credit bureaus and will be expunged. I mentioned the categories - basically any debt below R500 will be expunged totally.

Then there are other qualifications of categories up to R50 000. I think what we need is a balancing act between writing off every single credit bureau reference which has been requested in some quarters, the need for a new credit system that will operate on the basis of credit granters who make judgements of whether people are actually credit-worthy, and provisions as they are in this Act which says that reckless lending transactions can be nullified under certain circumstances, meaning then that the credit granters have to be able to have requisite information.

But this kind of discriminatory practice, where people’s lives are affected for decades afterwards because when they were young and poor they had an adverse credit record needs to be dealt with. You see little signposts saying you should pay somebody a packet of money and that they will get you off somewhere through the backdoor. That kind of dispensation is going. We want a clearer, more transparent and fairer system of credit bureau operations. Thank you.

Mr S SHICEKA: House Chairperson, the issue is that many people were coerced into … They were not really coerced but were duped into entering into credit agreements without, sometimes, their knowledge, given the fact that our system of IDs is archaic in nature. You may also find, as you see in marriages, that people get married to people that they do not know and have never seen. You find that most of those people are the poor who cannot afford a lawyer that can go and represent them. Now, what is the problem, Minister, in having a once-off removal of all these people who are on credit bureaus so that we can start on a clean slate? The intention is to ensure that everybody is able to be catered for, including those that entered into these things wrongly. That is what the formations of civil society are requesting.

I know for certain that the communist party is leading that campaign. What is the problem then in actually ensuring that that campaign is acceded to, and, that our people, in the context of the new law, can start afresh?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Dr R H Davies): Chairperson, I think that the dispensation that I mentioned is a partial move in acceding to those demands and requests from civil society. It certainly recognises that, as the hon members said, poor people were cajoled, if not coerced, into entering into credit transactions and that no account was taken of people’s ability to pay. They were just shoved into these things and then, once they default, suddenly all kinds of extra charges come in and a small debt becomes a big debt and so on. It is recognised that that is a reality, and that the credit bureau practices of the past were problematic.

However, as I said before, there has had to be a trade-off because of the new system. It has been an offence for some time for credit granters to hold people’s cards and IDs and so on. I know it happened, but if it still happens, it is an offence.

If we move away from those forms, we have to move towards an information- based system so that credit granters are able to have basic information about the ability of credit seekers to be able to service debts and so on. So, it has had to strike a balance between those two.

The answer that has come up, up to now, has been the one of partial amnesty for different categories. I mentioned them at the beginning: R500 or less – complete write off; R5 000 – court judgements, as long as it is 18 months old, and R50 000 if the amount was paid. So it is a partial move in that direction. But it hasn’t, I know, gone as far as some organisations in civil society would like it to. Thank you. [Applause.]

See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.

Business suspended at 11:03 and resumed at 14:03.

                       DEATH OF MR P H F SONN

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr B J TOLO: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes—

     (a)      with profound sadness, the sudden departure of a gallant
           son of Africa and President of the International Cricket
           Council (ICC),Mr Percival Henry Frederick Sonn,
           affectionately known as Percy, who died at the age of 57 on
           Sunday morning, 28 May 2007 in the Durbanville Medi-Clinic in
           Cape Town; and
     (b)      that Mr Sonn, who joins the generation of fallen spears of
           the nation that have travelled the path of the ominous
           struggle for the liberation of the people of South Africa,
           will be buried on Saturday at the Durbanville cemetery in
           Cape Town;

(2) further notes that Mr Sonn has a long, remarkable and prolific history in the development of sport in South Africa and in the international community, and fought against apartheid both as a cricketer and a civil rights lawyer with vigour and great courage;

(3) also notes that his ingrained belief in the prospects of our country and determination to ensure cricket unity in South Africa led to the formation of the United Cricket Board of South Africa (UCBSA) in 1991, after more than 100 years of racial division, and that he was the first African to fill the post of ICC President; and

(4) takes this opportunity to extend its profound sympathy and condolences to the Sonn family, especially his wife and children, and the sporting fraternity across the world, for their loss and wishes them strength during this time of difficulty.

     May his soul rest in peace.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                COLD-BLOODED MURDER OF TWO POLICEMEN

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr D A WORTH: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council-

(1) notes with shock the cold-blooded murder of two policemen in Cape Town, Inspector Martin van der Heyde and Student Constable Johnny Botha, whilst investigating a burglary;

(2) offers its heartfelt condolences to the bereaved families; and

(3) hopes that the perpetrators of this hideous crime will swiftly be brought to justice, as they have no regard whatsoever for law and order.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                        DEATH OF MRS B NYANDA

                         (Draft Resolution)

SOSISWEBHU WEMKHANDLU WEMAPROVINSI: Mgcinisihlalo lohlon, ngiphakamisa sishukumiso lesingakabikwa ngaphambili:

Kutsi leNdlu –

(1) ivakalise kushaceka kwayo nebuhlungu ngekwendlula emhlabeni kwamake weLilunga laleNdlu Yemkhandlu Wemaprovinsi, umhlon Make F Nyanda loshiywe ngunina wakhe longu Bitsy Nyanda ngaLesihlanu mhla tingu 25 kuNkhwekhweti, besaneminyaka lengu 84;

(2) icaphela nekutsi utawubekwa endlini yakhe yekugcina ngaloMgcibelo lotako mhla tingu 2 kuNhlaba, endzaweni yase Newcastle kulaKwazulu-Natali;

(3) itsi-ke itsandza kutihlanganisa nalomndeni wakaNyanda ngalesikhatsi lesibuhlungu kangaka; (4) yetsemba nekutsi Lonemandla Onkhe utaba nabo kuletinsuku letimatima emndenini wabo. (Translation of Siswati draft resolution follows.)

[The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Hon Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council-

  1) declares its heartfelt sympathy to one of its members, Ms F Nyanda,
     who lost her mother, Bitsy Nyanda, who passed away on Friday 25 May
     at the age of 84;


  2) notes that she will be laid to rest on Saturday 2 June in Newcastle
     in KwaZulu-Natal;


  3) sends its profound condolences to the Nyanda  family  during  these
     hard times; and


  4) believes that the Almighty will be with them through these  painful
     days.]

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

     LEARNERS AND TEACHERS KILLED IN ROAD ACCIDENT IN ELLIOTDALE

                         (Draft Resolution)

Nksz B N DLULANE: Sihlalo, ndiphakamisa ngaphandle kwesaziso:

Ukuba eli Bhunga –

  1) yamkele umbiko wokusweleka kwabantwana besikolo abalishumi
     neetitshala ezintlanu kwingozi eyehle ngomhla wama-24 kule imiyo,
     kwiveki ephelileyo bekwindlela esuka eMonti besiya eQhorha
     beyotyelela iindawo; yaye


  2) livakalise uvelwano olungazenzisiyo ngesi sehlo. (Translation of isiXhosa draft resolution follows.)

[Ms B N DLULANE: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council –

(1) notes the death of 10 learners and five teachers in an accident that occurred on 24 May 2007 during a school visit from East London to Elliotdale; and

(2) expresses its sadness about this great loss.]

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                ELECTRICITY REGULATION AMENDMENT BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

The MINISTER OF MINERALS AND ENERGY: Chairperson, members of the NCOP, I think it will be proper for me to first associate myself with all the motions that the House unanimously supported, wishing all the families strength during this difficult time.

I would like to present to you the Electricity Regulation Amendment Bill, after having received comments and support from all nine provinces for this Bill. At this stage, I would like to take this opportunity to thank members of the select committee for the work done here and in the provincial legislatures and for the unanimous support that the Bill enjoyed.

The Electricity Regulation Amendment Bill was first introduced as chapter four of the Electricity Regulation Bill, which became law on 1 August 2006. The purpose was to provide a regulatory framework that regulates the electricity value chain encompassing generation, transmission, distribution and trading. Due to constitutional consideration, Parliament advised that the Bill must be split into two parts. Part one, which was the Electricity Regulation Bill, was to cover all non-municipal aspects of electricity regulation. Part two would cover what we are about today, which is what we call the Electricity Regulation Amendment Bill. This is about electricity regulation, taking into account the constitutional rights of municipalities

• what is referred to as section 76 aspects of the Bill.

Our focus is now on concluding the Electricity Regulation Amendment Bill or the part that relates to the regulation of municipal reticulation services, as provided for in section 155(7) of the Constitution.

The rationale and the intention of this Bill are as follows: to provide for licensing of all reticulation service providers, including municipalities; to provide a framework for setting of tariffs by municipalities, a step that will go towards the rationalisation of the many tariffs that we have and also help us not to have a situation where municipalities will willy- nilly just decide to increase the tariffs because the situation is as such that we are unable to regulate or control municipalities in doing that – so, we are bringing that regulation to municipalities to ensure that we rationalise the tariffs.

It is going to empower the Minister to prescribe regulations for municipalities in relation to electricity reticulation services, including monitoring, compliance and corrective action in the event of breach by municipalities; and it will also make provision, regarding the relationship between municipalities as service authorities, and service providers who provide reticulation services on their behalf.

In the last quarter of 2006, the Bill was introduced in Parliament. You know, Chairperson, I have a lot of time. So, I want to take up a lot of this time that I have here. I don’t want to finish quickly. I want to prolong my speech even if it is short so that at least I can prolong my stay here in the Chamber. It’s been a long time since I have seen you. But, given that I have Minister Skweyiya here, I’ll try and be faster. The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You have five minutes left … [Interjections.]

The MINISTER OF MINERALS AND ENERGY: No. I have 15 minutes. In the last quarter of 2006, the Bill was introduced in Parliament. Public hearings were then held before the parliamentary portfolio committee. The committee adopted the Bill in November 2006 and it was subsequently referred to the NCOP as a section 76 Bill.

The Bill, as already indicated, was considered by the nine provincial legislatures for adoption during the first quarter of 2007. As I indicated, the provinces unanimously supported the Bill, subject to certain amendments. These amendments have been taken into account in the final Bill, as presented here. The state law adviser has taken these amendments into account in arriving at the final version of the Bill, including ensuring compatibility with the Constitution.

The Bill tabled before you today incorporates all comments received from stakeholders – and there are many stakeholders. I hope members will continue to engage on this Bill, because sometimes the devil is in the implementation. So, the process does not end here, for all of us. You need to continue to monitor the implementation and we would really appreciate feedback from members if anything goes amiss in the process of implementation.

This completes the institutional legislative framework which will then allow certain regulations to be implemented in improving the delivery of reticulation services. This Bill also ensures that Nersa plays an unambiguous role in its quest to achieve better regulation outcomes in the entire electricity value chain.

Once again, I would like to thank all the members of the NCOP and the select committee for their invaluable contribution and support in the processing and handling of this Bill. I thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Ms N D NTWANAMBI: Chairperson, hon Ministers, hon members and comrades, in our policy debate last year we raised the issue that all South Africans must have access to all basic necessities, one of which is electricity. The launch of RED 1 in July 2005 was a step towards that.

Indlela yokuchitha imali yeli sebe ibonakala kakuhle. Uya kubona ukuba ayisasazwa kangako imali. Ezi zihlomelo ziphakanyiswayo ziza kwenza khaphu- khaphu umthwalo woomasipala. Ngaba, Mphathiswa, inkqubo yeli sebe yokuba kube kugqityiwe ukumiselwa kwee-RED ngoMatshi walo nyaka uzayo isemi kusini na, kuba ukuba kunjani ezi ziphakamiso nezihlomelo ziya kukwazi ukwenzeka. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[This department has shown transparency in its expenditure. You can see that no money has been wasted. These proposals that are raised will make it easy for the municipalities. I hope the Minister will tell us how far they are with their business plan, regarding the establishment of RED in March next year. If that is in place these submissions and proposals will be possible.]

One of the clauses in the Bill mentions that a municipality must follow the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act, and must always refer to the Electricity Act, so that municipalities such as the City of Cape Town do not misuse it. I must mention …

… njengomhlali walapha eKapa nozalelwe apha … [ as a Capetonian and a person who resides here …]

… that the City of Cape Town wants to behave like an island. They have been threatening to close down the first RED and continue to drive the DA’s unholy policies.

This legislative development seeks to integrate the regulation of the electricity distribution industry and do away with different tariffs. Interestingly, we have approximately 2 000 tariffs in existence. Some are called inner-city tariffs and others are called outer-city tariffs. Unfortunately, our people are subjected to whatever tariffs the municipalities deem appropriate.

This legislative development seeks to provide uniformity as it integrates tariff-setting through the national framework of norms and standards. This immensely benefits the poor and the poorest of our country.

The Electricity Regulation Amendment Bill serves as a propeller to the realisation of an integrated electricity industry. This piece of legislation effects changes that will go a long way towards protecting the masses of our people from unequal tariffs. Nditsho kuba kubantu besi Sixeko sethu umbane wenziwe wayinto efana nemana evela kwi-DA, nto leyo engekhoyo. [I say this because people of this city think that electricity is a free service provided by the DA, something which is not true.]

It’s not true. Provision of electricity comes from the national government, which is the only government that must implement policies that govern the entire South Africa.

Consistent with the RDP’s pronouncement on electricity for all our people, this Bill gives practical expression to our ANC-led government’s policy on free basic electricity for the poorest of the poor of our people. This indicates our consciousness and concern about the conditions that our people are subjected to.

In our last committee meeting on this Bill …

Uyabona, abantu abangathandiyo ukumamela, ngaba basoloko beneengqondo ezizodwa ezintlanganisweni. [People who do not want to listen are those who always have a negative attitude in meetings.]

In our last committee meeting on this Bill, provinces supported the Bill and the necessary amendments from the provinces were taken into consideration. I must also mention that we tried our best to make sure that we were as much consultative at provincial level as we could. All stakeholders were invited and they made submissions, not only from the NCOP’s side, but also from the National Assembly’s side. I therefore urge the House to support the Bill with its amendments. Thank you. [Applause.]

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: Hon Ministers, hon Chairperson, colleagues, I’d like to agree with hon Ntwanambi that electricity comes from the national government, and that’s why we’ve had so many power outages lately. [Laughter.]

Die belangrikste eienskap van hierdie wetsontwerp is om duidelikheid te gee aan die regulatoriese rol van munisipaliteite met betrekking tot die Voorgestelde Streekselektrisiteitsvoorsieners, REDS. Munisipaliteite sal nie verplig word deur die wet om diensleweringsooreenkomste met die REDS aan te gaan nie, maar sal die geleentheid hê om elektrisiteit te retikuleer en te versprei.

’n Verdere belangrike punt om te vermeld is dat die administrasie van die wetsontwerp die daarstelling van norme en standaarde en die bepaling van sleutelleweringstandaarde vir die verspreiding en retikulasie van elektrisiteit deur die NER - Nasionale Energiereguleerder - in konsultasie met die Minister van Minerale en Energie gedoen sal word en nie deur die Minister in konsultasie met die NER, soos wat voorheen die geval was nie.

Die uitvoerende gesag verantwoordelik vir die retikulasie en verspreiding van elektrisiteit bly steeds gevestig in plaaslike regering met die aanvullende vereiste dat daardie munisipaliteite wat die retikulasie of verspreiding van elektrisiteit wil onderneem, sowel as daardie munisipaliteite wat diensleweringsooreenkomste met ’n RED wil aangaan om die retikulasie of verspreiding van elektrisiteit namens die RED te onderneem deur die NER gelisensieer moet wees ten einde te verseker dat die minimum standaarde in die lewering van elektrisiteit gehandhaaf sal word. Die uitvoerende gesag vir die lewering van elektrisiteitsregulasie, soos voorsien in bylae 4(b) en 5(b) van die Grondwet, is gevestig in plaaslike regering.

Die lisensieering van diensverskaffers sal verseker dat die NER eenvormigheid in die voorsiening van elektrisiteit deur nasionale norme en standaarde daar sal kan stel. ’n Munisipaliteit het slegs nodig om aansoek te doen vir ’n lisensie indien die munisipaliteit besluit om elektrisiteit aan verbruikers te voorsien. Geen lisensie hoef vir enige ander dienste wat die munisipaliteit verskaf, verkry te word nie.

Heffings wat deur munisipaliteite gehef word, word nie verbied deur hierdie wet nie, alhoewel dit die bedoeling van die wet is dat munisipaliteite die inkomste genereer uit die elektrisiteitsfunksie slegs vir retikulasie en verspreiding van elektrisiteit moet gebruik. Dit word gedoen om te verseker dat inkomste wat bedoel is vir die onderhoud en vervanging van verouderende elektrisiteitsinfrastruktuur nie vir ander dienste en doeleindes gebruik word nie.

In die lig van die bovermelde ondersteun die DA die wetsontwerp. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[The most important characteristic of this Bill is to clarify the regulatory role of municipalities with regard to the proposed Regional Electricity Distributors, REDs. Municipalities will not be obliged by the Act to enter into service delivery contracts with the REDS, but will have the opportunity to reticulate and distribute electricity.

A further important point to mention is that the administration of the Bill, the establishment of norms and standards and determining key delivery standards for the distribution and reticulation of electricity by the National Energy Regulator, the NER, will be done in consultation with the Minister of Minerals and Energy, and not by the Minister in consultation with the NER, as was the case before.

The executive authority responsible for the reticulation and distribution of energy still remains with local governments, with the additional requirement that those municipalities that want to undertake the reticulation or distribution of electricity, as well as those municipalities that want to enter into service delivery agreements with a RED to undertake the reticulation or distribution of electricity on behalf of the RED, must be licensed by the NER to ensure that the minimum standards in the delivery of electricity will be maintained. The executive authority for the delivery of electricity reticulation, as provided in Schedules 4(b) and 5(b) of the Constitution, rests with the local government.

The licensing of service providers will ensure that the NER will be able to establish uniformity in electricity delivery by applying national norms and standards. Municipalities only need to apply for a licence if the municipality decides to provide electricity to consumers. No licence needs to be acquired for any other services that the municipality provides.

Levies imposed by municipalities are not prohibited by this Act, although the object of the Act is that municipalities that generate income from the electricity function use it only for reticulation and distribution of electricity. This is being done to ensure that income intended for the maintenance and replacement of electricity infrastructure that is becoming aging is not used for other services and purposes.

In light of the above the DA supports the Bill. [Applause.]]

Mrs E S MABE: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, the basic RDP document, in one of its six pillars, requires government to provide basic services to all South Africans across the length and breadth of our country, in urban and rural areas, formal and informal settlements.

One of the key basic services is electricity. Electricity is an instrument that brings light, chases away darkness and brings warmth and hope. Electricity also makes it easier for us to prepare our meals. In its economic downstream, it creates jobs through electrical appliances. In order to access essentials like media through our televisions and our radios, we also need the supply of electricity.

Electricity contributes in the improvement of the quality of life of any nation. It improves communication and linkages with other nations of the world in a global village. Therefore, the accessibility and affordability of electricity is a matter of must. The development of uniform tariffs lays the basis for the realisation of the aforementioned objective. This Bill also lays the foundation for the implementation of regional electricity distributors, REDs, and clarifies the roles and responsibilities of both REDs and municipalities. This piece of legislation will be creating conditions that are conducive for the implementation of the ANC’s policy of providing free basic electricity to the poorest of the poor within the ranks of our people.

South Africa has a developed economy, in comparison to other 52 nations of Africa and therefore has a developed infrastructure. Our generation capacity and distribution networks are unparalleled in the continent. Therefore, there is no reason that we can’t meet the ANC’s manifesto target of 2010, in particular, and the Millennium Development Goals in general. The Free State has voted in favour of this Bill and I thank you. [Applause.]

Ms A N T MCHUNU: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, hon chairperson of the select committee and all hon members, the insertion of chapter 4 in Act 4 of 2006 is accepted and approved by the IFP. The energy that provides electricity acts as fuel and, as such, it has to be regulated.

Kufuneka singadlali ngomlilo. [We must not play with fire.]

Amendments that have been agreed on recognise the existence of those who have licences and who will be taken on board and given in-service training. Others who are accredited to participate in electricity reticulation will need to be registered. In order to protect the end-users of electricity, it is good that service providers will work together with the electricity regulator.

It is a pity that electricity reticulation has overtaken proper village designs in rural areas. Where villages have proper roads, electricity poles would have had to follow those roads. It is also a pity that good developmental programmes were packaged together with dirty programmes that made black areas appear as if occupied by lesser humans, in the days of grand apartheid.

However, efforts were made to correct the situation through research, as shown in McCrystal White Paper and by the findings of the Buthelezi Commission. So, we need to consult those reports in order to determine how we can deal with those hilly and mountainous areas.

Electricity is going to speed up economic development, especially in rural areas. Let us visit the above-mentioned reports as well to see what was recommended about the vast hilly areas covering the Eastern Cape, the jugged topography of KwaZulu, from Harding right up to Hlabisa and Ubombo mountains. I mention these areas because they boggle the mind when one thinks about them. So, municipalities that cover these rugged mountainous and hilly areas, with homesteads scattered all over, have to be assisted with budgeting appropriately, considering these geographical disabilities.

Further education and training colleges have to develop and train young electricians who are going to assist the people who are using electricity on the ground. Different types of energy, perhaps, will also be taken into consideration by various communities. Some will generate their electricity from cow dung and others from the solar system and other things.

The IFP supports the amendments and appreciates the work that is done.

Mr Z S KOLWENI: Hon Chair, Ministers in the House today and my colleagues, let us admit that electricity is key and crucial for economic growth and social development. Around the world there is demand for technologically- driven production, and that can only be achieved when energy is available. Decent and modern living described by our ruling party, the ANC, as a better life for all, places electricity provision at the centre of a sustainable and developing economy.

Electricity is also an important source of revenue for most of our municipalities that distribute electricity. Therefore, the restructuring of the electricity industry is necessary, particularly at local government sphere, because it practically gives expression to the transformation of society from the past colonial legacy to the current democratic free society.

Again, why the Electricity Regulation Amendment Bill? Allow me to remind this august House that there is the National Energy Act of 2004 that provides for the establishment of a single regulator to regulate electricity, piped gas and petroleum pipeline industries, whereas the Electricity Bill that was enacted in 1987 provided for the regulation of electricity generation, transmission and distribution, and increases to electricity tariffs have to be approved by the regulator.

Although the need for a regulator is supported, the existing electricity legislation did not take sufficient account of some key issues, including the constitutional mandate of local government, in respect of electricity reticulation services. Hence, this Electricity Regulation Bill is necessary to close the gap.

Again we should remind our Minister and the department about principles underpinning any electricity restructuring process, that is, the restructuring must be in accordance with the Constitution, taking into account that the responsibility for electricity reticulation is a municipal function.

The financial health of municipalities currently performing the electricity function must not be adversely affected. Aggregate personnel costs must not increase in a way that undermines the objectives of one Public Service.

In conclusion, the ANC is the only political party that has a contract with the citizens of this country, and it uses a gender lens whenever it prepares its budgets. I thank you and the ANC is happy about this amending Bill. [Applause.]

Mr N D HENDRICKSE: Chairperson, hon Ministers, hon members, this Bill seeks to amend the Electricity Regulation Act of 2006, so as to make certain textual corrections, in order to insert a new chapter that deals with electricity reticulation by municipalities. In fact, this Bill gives the Minister powers to make regulations and provide for matters connected therewith.

The use of safe electricity is a major issue in our public safety. In the past few years, a significant number of people were killed in this country as a result of accidents attributed to electricity. The fact that electricity is such a potentially hazardous resource that is widely used as a source of energy makes it vitally important to ensure that members of the public are not put at risk through everyday use.

The UIF notes that many small municipalities cannot maintain their infrastructure nor prevent outages, not because of the fault of anybody else but because of the infrastructure itself. The Bill provides for the National Energy Regulator to be the custodian and enforcer of the national electricity framework. We sincerely hope the amendment will help to reduce the prices and tariffs of electricity. We welcome the regulation on tariffs, because many municipalities have been taking people for a ride.

The Minister must ensure that the regulator enforces performance and compliance, and see to it that appropriate action is taken against those who do not comply with the rules and regulations. The regulator must mediate in all disputes between generators, transmitters, distributors and customers. Our concern is the cost of the new power stations and we sincerely hope that this will not be passed on to the end-users but that it will come from the fiscus.

The most important feature of the Bill is that it provides regulatory clarity in respect of the role of municipalities, in conjunction with the envisaged REDs.

The need for public education about energy remains a challenge in our provinces. The government should put in place an education strategy on energy efficiency, cleaner energy, and dangers of paraffin and coal in households. This must be addressed as a matter of urgency.

The UIF supports the Bill. I thank you.

Ms B L MATLHOAHELA: Chairperson, hon Ministers, colleagues, the ID has followed this Bill with quaint interest. In the year 2000, whilst I was a police reservist, serving my country voluntarily, I was told by a police inspector that in the next five to six years we were going to have a shortage of electricity. I forgot about it, but when it happened I remembered. Now, how did it happen that our rulers at that point did not foresee it? However, we have passed there now and we have to concentrate on the present, which is also a gift and is so important.

The ID’s concern is the municipalities. We believe that thorough training for municipalities is essential, in order to make this Bill successful in the future. It is an expensive process and risk factors should not be a component. The thrust of this Bill is that maximum support on all levels of municipalities, from the beginning, should be the highest priority.

As we take note of the powers and duties of municipalities in relation to reticulation and area of jurisdiction, finance should be ascertained, especially regarding those close to bankruptcy and bankrupt municipalities.

Consideration should be granted to those municipalities who became bankrupt due to unemployed clients in their communities who cannot pay for services. Non-compliance with this Act can have severe implications to those who do not comply, owing to negligence. We trust that that will be the outcome. I thank you, Chairperson.

The MINISTER OF MINERALS AND ENERGY: Hon Chairperson, I think I must take the opportunity to express appreciation to the chairperson of the select committee, Ms Ntwanambi, for the leadership that has taken us thus far. I want to say that all of you are pre-empting my Budget Vote speech. You are really pushing for me to make announcements on a number of issues. I refuse to do that, because my speech is embargoed until tomorrow. [Laughter.] I will try and respond to some of those matters.

On the issue that the chairperson raised, about the date of the regional electricity distributor, we are still saying that it will be 2008. But, I must say that it is a very complex and very tedious process. We are trying to make sure that nobody is left out.

We are consulting widely. As we speak, we are in the provinces. We are targeting the provincial communication forums, PCFs, in the provinces, which bring together the municipalities as well as the provinces. So, we are in the process of consulting. I think this is the third round of consultations that we are doing, because of the complexity of the matter that we are dealing with.

Of course, you will appreciate that a number of things that are being raised by municipalities are being taken very seriously by us, especially the issue of revenue sharing, which has been used as a tool against this process. Now, again, I have to go into my speech.

Ayikho loo nto, oomasipala abazi kuxuthwa mali. [There is no such no money will be seized from the municipalities.]

There is nothing like that. We have an arrangement where municipalities will enter into agreements between themselves and the REDs that we are going to establish. Those agreements will ensure that revenue is shared. We actually envisage better revenue generation for municipalities when the REDs are there. So, the process of the REDs is on course, and nothing is going to change our direction on that course. We are on course regarding that one.

Siza kuqhuba siluhlengahlengisa olu shishino lobonelelo ngombane. Kunjalo nje, sifuna ukuhlala sijolise kweza-RED zintandathu kuphela. [We will continue to provide electricity and we will always focus on the six REDs.]

Outages are not unique to South Africa; they happen in America as well. Unfortunately, this is a consequence of the positive things happening in our country. Firstly, the fact that we have expanded the services to the poorest communities has meant that we have stretched our supply, and there is more demand than the supply that we would have had if we had restricted these services to the minority that were enjoying it at the time. We are now saying that everybody must enjoy electricity, and in the process of expanding, our supply is affected.

I think we must underscore that one other thing that is a contributing factor is the fast growth in our economy and, as we all appreciate, energy is quite central in any industrialised economy. You need energy for growth in the economy. So, we have seen growth, which we are actually underestimating. We are underestimating the growth that we are experiencing in South Africa. We are very conservative. Some have been saying it is 5%; some have been saying 6%; and some are even saying it’s 9%. That also causes problems, with regard to the energy supply.

Hon Mchunu, of course, we have an energy mix policy which would help us to deliver energy in the rural areas where the topography is not so good. We are looking at the solar system; we are looking at wind farms and all of those forms of energy that will ensure that we continue to expand the service to all our people. The results that are coming up from the pilot that we are doing on solar energy are that people are not so happy with the solar energy system. They are saying that the solar energy system is not of a good quality, but we will be looking at that.

Regarding the infrastructure, we’ve a huge amount that has been given to Eskom. Eskom has been given an amount which, I think, is to the tune of R100 million for rolling out the infrastructure. The rural areas will be benefiting from that.

On the issue of restructuring in accordance with the Constitution, again, we had indicated that …

… lo Mthetho usayilwayo siwusile kubacebisi bezomthetho bakarhulumente ukuze ujongwe ukuba uyahambelana na noMgaqo-siseko. [… this Bill has been taken to the state law advisers to ensure that it is compatible with the Constitution.]

We are quite happy that the state law advisers gave us the go-ahead, because they said that it is compatible with the Constitution. So, we don’t envisage any problem in as far as that is concerned. Even with regard to the REDs, we are looking at that situation.

Lo mba uyaphakanyiswa, wokuba … [The issue has been raised that …]

… the REDs must be compatible with the Constitution. We are working very hard to ensure that that happens. Again, I have to stop here. I am very constrained, because most of the issues are issues that are in my speech. You will see that I am not giving you enough, as I should, but I thought I should give you a taste.

Thank you very much for your inputs. We have noted some of the issues that were raised concerning support to municipalities. In the event that municipalities do not have money, I think that will be considered in the equitable share. We know which municipalities are the poorest, and that is accommodated in the equitable share that they get from the Division of Revenue Bill. That would then be taken care of.

Of course, there is a relationship between departments and municipalities, where we always look at the capacity and how we can help capacitate municipalities that otherwise would have limited capacity. So, the support to municipalities would always be there. Thank you very much, Chairperson, and thank you all for the support. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, Minister. We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do so in alphabetic order per province. Delegation heads, please indicate to the Chair whether you vote in favour, against or abstain. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: In favour.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Free State?

Mr M O ROBERTSON: In favour.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Gauteng?

Mr E M SOGONI: Siyawuxhasa, Sihlalo. [We support it, Chair.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mrs J N VILAKAZI: IKwaZulu-Natali iyawesekela. [KwaZulu-Natal supports it.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Limpopo?

Ms N F MAZIBUKO: In favour.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mpumalanga?

Ms J M MASILO: Mpumalanga e a tshegetsa. [Mpumalanga supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Northern Cape?

Mr C M GOEIEMAN: In favour.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: North West ke a rona. [North West supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Western Cape? Mrs E S MABE: IWestern Cape iyavumelana. [Western Cape supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Nine provinces have voted in favour. I therefore declare the Bill agreed to in terms of section 65 of the Constitution.

Bill accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                      CHILDREN’S AMENDMENT BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, hon members, I thank you for the opportunity to address the NCOP on the occasion of the debate on the Children’s Amendment Bill. Within government, we have launched the Child Protection Week on a national and provincial level and it is indeed a timely coincidence to address the NCOP on this Bill.

We are at a critical milestone in our efforts to put comprehensive legislation in place that would adequately protect the rights of children in South Africa, as enshrined in the Bill of Rights of our Constitution.

The Children’s Amendment Bill is intended to be an integral part of the Children’s Act, Act 38 of 2005, which was signed and assented to by the President on 8 June 2006. The Children’s Act, in its formation, was part of the consolidated Bill aimed at dealing with the full spectrum of protection of children in both national and provincial spheres of government, and was to be dealt with in terms of section 76 of the Constitution, that is within schedule 4 - functional areas of concurrent national and provincial legislative competence.

However, the consolidated Bill was found by Parliament in 2003 to be a mixed Bill, which included elements to be handled in terms of both section 75, functional area of national legislative competence, and section 76 of the Constitution.

Due to its mixed character, the consolidated Bill was split and provisions, which applied to the provincial government, were removed. The Children’s Act, as assented to by the President, contains matters which have been dealt with in terms of section 75 of the Constitution. Those provisions, which were removed from the consolidated Bill, form the Children’s Amendment Bill, which will amend the Children’s Act.

The department introduced the Children’s Amendment Bill, a section 76 Bill, in the National Council of Provinces on 25 July 2006. The Children’s Amendment Bill makes provision for the protection of children, partial care, early childhood development, prevention and early intervention services, alternative care, foster care, child and youth care centres, as well as drop-in centres.

The Children’s Amendment Bill gives effect to the protection of children in the following manner: It makes provision for partial care, known as place of care in the existing Child Care Act of 1983, which refers to when a person with or without reward, takes care of more than six children on behalf of their parents or care-givers for a temporary period, by agreement.

Partial care is a facility in which programmes, for example early childhood development services, should be rendered. These facilities must be registered with the provincial departments of social development.

The amending Bill further makes provision for the registration and monitoring of ECD programmes separate from partial care centres. The implication is that if an ECD programme is offered at a partial care facility, there will be a requirement for it to register both as a partial care and as an ECD programme.

The separation of partial care facility and the ECD programme is in recognition of the fact that partial care facilities can be used for various programmes other than ECD. There is also recognition for the needs of children with disabilities in both partial care and the ECD programme, and for the MECs to ensure a good spread of both partial care and ECD programmes in each province of this country.

The Bill introduces better reporting mechanisms for child abuse, neglect and exploitation of children, by mandating a variety of professionals, for example, social workers, teachers, medical practitioners, psychologists and many others to, on suspicion, report a child who has been sexually abused, neglected or abused if it is in the best interest of the child concerned.

Other persons who believe that a child is in need of care and protection because of abuse, sexual abuse or deliberate neglect may report that belief to a social worker, the police or a child protection organisation.

Chairperson, as we are aware, most statutory social services for children and their families are delivered by welfare organisations referred to as designated child protection organisations in this Bill.

The director-general or provincial head of social development, on written application, may designate any appropriate organisation that complies with the prescribed criteria as a child protection organisation to perform in the relevant province all or any specific designated child protection services.

The amending Bill addresses the plight of child-headed households, and makes provision for the provincial head of social development to recognise a household as a child-headed household, if the parent or care-giver of the household is terminally ill or has died; no adult family member is available to provide care for the children in the household; a child has assumed the role of caregiver in respect of a child in the household; a child over the age of 15 years has assumed the role of caregiver in respect of the children in the household; and if the children in the household have been investigated by a social worker as contemplated in section 150(2). Such a child-headed household must function under the general supervision of an adult designated by a children’s court, an organisation of state or an NGO determined by the provincial head of social development.

Decisions concerning the child-headed households and the children may not be taken without consulting the child at the head of the household and the other children. Furthermore, no person may take or send a child out of the Republic without consent from persons holding relevant parental rights and responsibilities in respect of that child or without consent from a court.

The Children’s Amendment Bill further provides for discipline of children. It states that no child may be subjected to corporal punishment or be punished in a cruel or degrading way and the following points are included: the child’s right to physical integrity as conferred in the Constitution must be respected - izingane azishaywa [children should not be beaten]; the common law defence of reasonable chastisement available to persons in any court proceeding is hereby abolished; no person may administer corporal punishment to a child at any child and youth care centre, partial care facility or drop-in centre; the department must take all reasonable steps to ensure that education and awareness-raising programmes are implemented across the country, and that programmes promoting appropriate discipline at home and at school are available across the country.

The Children’s amending Bill attempts to promote the safety of entertainment premises to children. Adequate stairs, escalators, lifts or other mechanical means must be provided. A person providing entertainment must determine the number of children and the number of adult attendants, control the movement of people, take all reasonable precautions for the safety of children, and not sell alcohol or tobacco products to children.

The amending Bill supports the prohibition of the employment of children under the age of 15 years. The importance of prevention and early intervention services are recognised in the amending Bill as it provides for court-ordered early intervention services. This is the first time that prevention and early intervention services are legislated for, and that norms and standards for such programmes are determined.

The amending Bill also provides for alternative care, such as foster care, and child and youth care centres. Foster care includes placement of a child in the care of a person who is not a parent or a guardian of a child by court order. A new provision in this chapter is the placement of a child with a family member, and, where appropriate, for more than two years or until the child reaches the age of 18 years. This provision takes cognisance of a large number of orphans who are placed in stable environments with family member or members and therefore require a minimum or no supervision from a social worker.

More than six children may be placed in foster care in terms of a cluster foster care scheme, which provides for the children to be grouped in houses which accommodate not more than six children per house or such other number of children per house as the court may have determined. For the first time, child and youth care centres include traditional shelters, which render service to children living, working or begging in the streets. Child and youth care centres must, as a condition for registration, offer therapeutic programmes which may include reception, care and development; temporary safe care of children pending their placement; protection from abuse and neglect; care and protection of trafficked or commercially sexually exploited children; observing and assessing children; providing counselling and other treatment; and, lastly, assisting children to reintegrate with their families and communities. Child and youth care centres must have management boards and no person who is not suitable to work with children may be appointed or continue to serve at a child and youth care centre. The Bill, lastly, provides for drop-in centres managed for the purpose of providing services, excluding overnight accommodation, to children and including children living, working or begging in the streets. Drop-in centres must provide outreach programmes as well as prevention and intervention programmes.

The Children’s Act is progressive and promotes new approaches to implemented changes that must replace old practices. Therefore new skills are required to implement this Act successfully. Existing service providers, especially child protection organisations, should be strengthened to assist in addressing the challenges of implementing the Children’s Act and this amending Bill. With the shortage of social workers, it is of the utmost importance that other professionals are allowed to assist social workers in the execution of their task to protect children in the country. Hence the Bill provides that relevantly capacitated social service professionals be included in welfare service delivery to children, especially in instances where professional social work service is not essential.

The department has a recruitment and retention strategy to address the shortage of social workers. I would like to appeal to young people to make use of the opportunity of available bursaries and learnerships for training in social work and social auxiliary work. Resources required to implement the Act will be provided in terms of an approach that recognise the existence of competing social and economic needs; and that recognises that the organs of state in the national, provincial and, where applicable, local spheres of government, will take reasonable measures within the available resources to prioritise the realisation of the objectives of this Act. The Bill, together with the Children’s Act, has been fully quoted to inform resource allocations at various levels.

This Bill is one of the foundation Acts of Parliament to protect our children and to ensure actions in the best interest of families and children. Its finalisation is therefore critical. My department is developing regulations and implementation plans to offset any delays that might be encountered in implementing this Act.

Programmes have also been prepared, subject to presidential approval, to activate those provisions in the Children’s Act of 2005, which do not require regulations such as lowering the age of majority of the child to 18 years.

I wish to thank all members of the Select Committee on Social Services and the provincial legislatures for their assistance in finalising the Children’s Amendment Bill. I would also like to thank the officials of the SA Law Reform Commission and the state law advisers who are assisting with the drafting of the amending Bill, as well as the officials of the Department of Social Development and other departments who are on the Children’s Act steering committee for their hard work and persistence on this Bill.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. [Applause.]

Ms J M MASILO: Hon House Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members and invited guests, it gives me great pleasure to speak on the Children’s Amendment Bill during the Children’s Awareness Week.

The lives of children are protected by various pieces of legislation and institutional conventions. Apart from section 28 of the Constitution, which deals with the rights of children, the statutes pertaining to children currently on the Statute Book are as follows: Age of Majority Act, Act 57 of 1972; Child Care Act, Act 74 of 1983; Guardianship Act, Act 192 of 1993; Children’s Status Act, Act 82 of 1987; The Hague Convention on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction Act, Act 72 of 1996; and the Natural Fathers of Children Born Out of Wedlock Act, Act 86 of 1997.

This amending Bill contains parts of the envisaged Children’s Act. The Bill that was initially submitted to Parliament - the consolidated Bill - dealt with the full spectrum of children in both the national and provincial spheres of government, as it was to fall, in terms of section 76 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, Act 108 of 1996, under the functional area of concurrent national and provincial legislative competence. However, it was found to be a mixed Bill, including elements to be dealt with in terms of the functional areas of legislative competence of both section 75 and section 76 of the Constitution.

The Parliament of South Africa passed the consolidated Bill that will apply to the national government in 2005, as the Children’s Act, Act 38 of 2005. The provisions of the consolidated Bill that will apply to the provincial government are contained in the current amending Bill as an amendment to the Children’s Act of 2005. This amending Bill will be dealt with in terms of section 76 of the Constitution and will complete the Children’s Act by inserting the provisions that deal with welfare services delivered by the provinces.

However, over the past few years it became clear that existing legislation was not keeping up with the realities of current social problems faced by children, and no longer protected children adequately. In addition thereto, the Republic of South Africa has acceded to various international conventions such as the United Nations Declaration of the Rights of the Child and the African Charter on the Rights and Welfare of the Child. The principle had to be incorporated into local legislation.

The amending Bill expands on the Children’s Act by inserting the following: Chapter 5 deals with the partial care and approval of registration of partial care facilities; chapter 6 regulates the approval and registration of early childhood development, ECD, programmes, provided by an individual other than the child’s parent or caregiver on a regular basis to children up to the school-going age; chapter 8 deals with the prevention and early intervention services, and it provides for facilities where children identified as being vulnerable or at risk can be accommodated, as a form of alternative care.

Chapter 11 provides for alternative care for children. Chapter 12 and 13 further expand on alternative care by respectively regulating arrangements for foster care and child and youth centres. Chapter 13 determines that child and youth care centres must comply with certain requirements, namely they must be registered, offer certain programmes to children in the care of these centres, must have a management system, and a quality assurance process must be carried out in respect of the centre.

Chapter 14 regulates the establishment of the centre and norms and standards for drop-in centres. It provides that the inspection of records of the drop-in centres should be undertaken. The provincial head of the department must maintain a record of all available drop-in centres in his or her area.

The heads of social development in the provinces must also conduct regular inspection of drop-in centres to enforce the provisions of this Bill. Provincial strategies must include strategies of drop-in centres. Strategies should include the following measures: facilitate the establishment of sufficient drop-in centres in the provinces; prioritise those types of drop-in centres most urgently required; and, facilitate the identification and provision of suitable resources.

If abuse resulting in the death or serious injury of a child occurs in a drop-in centre, it must be immediately reported by a person in charge of the drop-in centre to the provincial head of social development and the cause of the injury or abuse of the child should be investigated.

If the child dies while in partial care or following an occurrence in the drop-in centre, the person operating the centre must immediately report the death to the police official and the head of the department of social development in the province. The police official must investigate the circumstances of the death of the child.

The processes of consultation by the select committee on this Bill were as follows: From 12 to 13 October 2006 the NCOP select committee attended and participated in a workshop organised by the national Department of Social Development and the National Treasury, where we were briefed on the context of the Bill and the costing. The workshop was held in Kopanong Conference Centre in Gauteng. On 17 October 2006 the Department of Social Development briefed the Select Committee on Social Services on the Bill. On 22 May 2007 the Select Committee on Social Services considered the mandates from six provinces. It is of great concern that three provinces did not submit their mandates. These are North West - my province, Limpopo and Mpumalanga, even though the Bill had been with the provinces since March 2007.

In conclusion, I would like to express my sincere gratitude to the following senior managers from the department, who tirelessly worked on this Bill, who worked with the select committee in organising a series of workshops, including a workshop held in Simon’s Town in Cape Town: Deputy Director-General Ms Nhlapo; Dr Mabetoa – the chief director who is in charge of the Children’s Bill; Ms Ngcobo-Mbere, who is the director of the children’s programme; Dr Kganyago, chief director of the HIV-Aids Programme; the support staff of the various departments of government, in particular, Ms Matlhogonolo and Mr Pierre du Preez, and legal advisers of the Department of Social Development.

Thank you very much for the support you gave the select committee. I think this Bill is the longest and most complicated Bill the select committee has ever worked on. Well done to you members of the Select Committee on Social Services for your commitment and contributions in working even after hours to finalise this amending Bill. The Select Committee on Social Services supports the Children’s Amendment Bill, Bill 19 of 2006. Thank you.

Nk N F MAZIBUKO: Sihlalo nani malungu, ngesiNgisi bathi: It takes a village to grow a child. Uma ngiguqulela lokhu esintwini, kuthiwa ingane ngeyomphakathi wonke. Yingakho namuhla sihlangene lapha kule Ndlu yoMkhandlu Wezifundazwe Kazwelonke sibonisana ngalo mthetho onhloso yawo ukuvikela amalungelo ezingane kanye nokubhekela impatho yazo. Nathi sibamba iqhaza ekukhuliseni zona lezi zingane, singamalungu.

Izolo bekuyisiqalo sesonto okuhloswe ngalo ukuthi kugxilwe ekuvikeleni izingane, phecelezi i-Child Protection Week. Inyanga kaJuni nayo iyinyanga ebhekene nabasha kanye nezingane. NgesiNgisi, ingqikithi ithi, “Caring communities care for their children”. Inhloso ngukugubha leli sonto ngokuqinisa noma ukuthatha izinyathelo ezinqala zokuqinisekisa ukuthi amalungelo ezingane athathelwa phezulu, ngoba lezi zingane zingabaholi bakusasa.

Kuyingqophamlando ukuthi sigunyaze lo mthetho obizwa ngokuthi i-Children’s Amendment Bill, kulo leli sonto elibhekene namalungelo ezingane. Singamalungu eNdlu yoMkhandlu, kubalulekile ukuthi uma senza umsebenzi wethu ezakhiweni zemiphakathi esivotele siqaphele izimpawu ezizobonakalisa ukuthi umthetho uyahlonishwa. Ngithemba ukuthi sonke siyalithola leli phephabhuku elivela esikhungweni esibhekela inhlalakahle yezingane, i- Children’s Institute, elibhalwe yiNyuvesi yaseKapa, lapho khona izingane zikhuluma ngaphansi kweqembu elizibiza ngokuthi iDinkwakwetla.

Uma ngilifunda leli phephabhuku, ngifunda ngezindaba ezibuhlungu nezimo ezimbi izingane eziphila ngaphansi kwazo. Ngizocaphuna okunye okushiwo ngezinye izingane, ngokwezifundazwe. Esifundazweni saKwaZulu-Natali, izingane ziye zaphawula ukuthi iningi lazo liyizintandane futhi ezinye zikhulisa izingane zasemakubo; ngamanye amazwi zingobaba kanye nomama emakubo. Ezinye zikhulume ngempatho eziyithola kubazali nezihlobo, egcina ibangele ukuthi zibaleke emakhaya ziye kohlala emigwaqweni. Ezinye izingane eLimpopo zona ziveze ukuthi ziyanukubezwa ngokocansi, kanti ezinye ziyekelelwe, azinakiwe abazali bazo, futhi zibhukluzwa ngabazali kanye nothisha, ziphinde zihlukunyezwe emoyeni.

Malungu, ayikho into ebuhlungu njengokuthi ungumzali uzele ingane bese uyithatha uyoyibeka emzileni wesitimela. Ngamanye amazwe usuke ufuna inyathelwe yisitimela. Usuke uyisaphi emhlabeni uma ngabe ungayifuni? Abanye abazali bayazizala lezi zingane bajike bazithathe bazilahle emaklabishini, emigqonyeni kadoti. Labo abanezindlu zangasese eziyimigodi bazilahla lapho. Ake umuntu acabange lowo mfanekiso yena ngokwakhe uma uphuma endlini encane, eqeda ukwenza inombolo yesibili. Akabheki nasemuva ngoba usuke azi ukuthi kuyesabeka. Kepha abanye abazali abangenalo uzwelo balahla izingane zabo lapho.

Lezi zingane ezilahlwayo zikhula zingalwazi uthando lomzali, azenzelwa namasiko, futhi zisuke zingazi nokuthi zizalwa kwabani nokuthi bangobani nabazali bazo. Bonke labo abenza izinto ezihlasimulisa umzimba ezinganeni sithi kubo ba … uTapsi, inja encane. Ingalo yomthetho yinde, izobathola. Sihlalo, kukhona igama engingalishongo ngoba bazothi alihambisani nenqubo yasePhalamende.

Abanye bashiya izingane ezikoleni kanye nasezinkulisa, bangazilandi ngezikhathi zantambama, zigcine zilele lapho. Kusho ukuthini uma umzali elele embhedeni wakhe engazi ukuthi ngane yakhe ikuphi? NgesiSuthu bathi: Ba hlabisa dihlong. [Benza amahlazo]. Omunye ubaba wabulala ingane yakhe maqede wayimbela khona egcekeni. Emuva kwalokho wakha umjondolo phezu kwalo lelo thuna lengane. Yadlula iminyaka eyi-16 behamba phezu kwayo ingane, yena nonkosikazi wakhe. Babedla, bephuza, belala, bevuka yonke le minyaka behamba phezu kwengane. Yihlazo-ke lelo.

Ngalo mthetho, sithembisa izingane zaseNingizimu Afrika yonkana, nalezo ezinganakiwe, ukuthi, maqondana nakho konke ezikushilo nobuhlungu ezibuzwayo, uma lo mthetho ususayinwe uMongameli wesizwe, ngeke zisaphinde zihlukunyezwe. Ingalo yomthetho izoqina, kujeziswe labo abangaziphathi kahle izingane.

Abaphethe izindawo ezigcina izingane kufuneka baphucule lezo zindawo, nempatho ibe yinhle. Abakhulisela uhulumeni izingane, phecelezi foster care, nabo mabaziqaphele kahle lezi zingane zikahulumeni, bazinike uthando nemfudumalo ngoba uhulumeni ukhipha imali ukuze zondliwe, zifundiswe. Akufuneki benze into eyenziwa omunye umame owathatha izingane wazivalela endlini yezinja, yena wahamba waya kophuza utshwala ngayo yona le mali kahulumeni. Umthetho usuvumela izindawo lapho kunakekelwa khona intsha, lokhu okuthiwa ama-youth and child care centres. Sezizokwanda emadolobheni onke.

Uma ngiphetha, ngithi siyabonga kuNgqongqoshe ngokuthi wenze lo mthetho ukuze kuthuthukiswe izimpilo zezingane. Sithi, singamalungu: Phambili ngamalungelo ezingane! Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu speech follows.)

[Ms N F MAZIBUKO: Chairperson and hon members, in English they say: It takes a village to raise a child. This, in simple language, means that the child belongs to the whole community. That is why we are gathered here today in this House of the National Council of Provinces to discuss the Bill that aims to protect the children’s rights and look at their wellbeing. We, as members, also play a role in raising these children.

Yesterday was the start of the Child Protection Week. The month of June is also dedicated to the youth and the children. In English, the theme is, “Caring communities care for their children”. The main aim for observing this week is to ensure that children’s rights are prioritised, because these very children are tomorrow’s leaders. It is history that in a week that is dedicated to highlight the children’s rights, we are discussing such an important legislation, the Children’s Amendment Bill. As members of the NCOP, it is important that when we are in our constituencies doing constituency work, we become vigilant to see whether the law is respected. I just hope that we all received the bulletin that was distributed by the Children’s Institute, which is written by the University of Cape Town, where children speak under the organisation called Dikwankwetla.

When reading this bulletin, I read about painful stories and bad conditions under which these children live. I will tell you what the children from the different provinces say. In KwaZulu-Natal children say most of them are orphans and others are heading the households; in other words they assume the responsibilities of mothers and fathers to their siblings. Others have spoken about the ill-treatment they get from their parents and relatives, which eventually force them to run away from home and stay on the streets. Other children from Limpopo disclosed that they are sexually assaulted, and others are neglected, their parents do not care for them, and they are both emotionally and physically abused by their parents and teachers.

Members, there is nothing more aggravating than a parent who takes her baby to a train, with the intention of letting the train run over that little child. Why do parents bring children into the world if they do not want them? Other parents give birth to these children and throw them in the gardens and in rubbish bins. Those who use pit toilets throw them in there. Just imagine what it would be like inside the toilet when you get out after relieving yourself. You definitely would not want to look back because you know it’s awful. Yet some heartless parents dump their babies there.

Children who are neglected grow up not knowing parental love and no cultural rituals are performed for them. They do not even know their surnames and they cannot tell who their parents are. To all those who do all these horrendous things to children, we say to them, they should watch out, Tapsi may be a short dog, but the arm of the law is definitely long. And justice will catch up with them one day. Chairperson, there is one word that I did not mention because it would have been said it is unparliamentary.

Some parents do not bother about fetching their children from schools and crèches in the afternoons, and the poor children end up sleeping there. What does it mean when a parent is comfortably sleeping in his bed not knowing where his child is? In Sesotho they say: They are doing shameful things. A certain man killed his own child and buried it in the yard. As if that was not enough, he built a shack on top of that grave. He and his wife spent 16 years walking on top of that child. They were eating, drinking, sleeping, and waking up all these years walking on top of the child. That is a disgrace. With this Bill, we are making a pledge to the children of South Africa as a whole, even those that are neglected, that they will never be abused again. And concerning all what they said and the pain that they are feeling, I can say as soon as this Bill is signed by the President, they will never be harassed again. The arm of the law will be strong and those who do not take care of their children will be punished.

Those who manage the places that keep children need to upgrade those places and the caring should be good. Foster parents need to be vigilant too. They must give these children love and warmth because the government pays money for them to be fed and educated. They should not do like one woman who took her children and locked them up in a kennel and went out to drink liquor with the children’s grant. The Bill also caters for the youth and child care centres. These will spread throughout the cities.

In conclusion, I am saying we are grateful to the Minister for passing this Bill in order to make the children’s lives better. As members, we say: Forward with children’s rights! Thank you. [Applause.]]

Ms H LAMOELA: Hon Chair, hon Minister and colleagues, the Children’s Amendment Bill is intended for amending the Children’s Act of 2005. The objectives of the Bill are to insert certain definitions; provide for partial care and early childhood development; provide for protection of children; provide for prevention and early intervention services; provide for children in alternative care; provide for foster care; provide for child and youth care centres; provide shelters and drop-in centres; and finally, to create certain new offences relating to children.

The amending children’s Bill, to my knowledge, will become one of the most important pieces of legislation, addressing the needs of children, especially in South Africa. This piece of legislation is indeed protecting the constitutional rights of children, such as protection against neglect, maltreatment, abuse and degradation, and to ensure that children are free from all forms of violence. The DA thus believes that children deserve equal services, no matter how poor or how rural.

Agb Voorsitter, tydens ons publieke verhore rakende hierdie belangrike stuk wetgewing was dit baie bemoedigend om te vind dat ons gemeenskappe die erns van die implikasies van wetgewing, veral rondom die kind, besef het. Hoe anders kon insette van tekortkominge in die wetgewing deurgegee word as die wie juis praktiese probleme ondervind en verwerk nie deelname gegun was nie? Waardevolle insette en aanbevelings wat groot meriete inhou was deurgegee en ek wil dus ’n ernstige beroep op die departement doen om na die praktiese kant van die aanbevelings te kyk en dit in die regulasies in te sluit. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Hon Chairperson, during our public hearings concerning this important piece of legislation it was very encouraging to find that our communities have realised the seriousness of the implications of legislation, particularly concerning the child. How else could inputs of shortcomings in our legislation be passed on if the ones who are experiencing and dealing with the practical problems are in fact the ones who are not given the opportunity to participate? Valuable inputs and recommendations that hold great merit were passed on, and I would therefore wish to make a serious appeal to the department to look at the practicalities of the recommendations and include them in the regulations.]

Provinces will be playing a pivotal role in implementing and monitoring the amended Children’s Bill by ensuring that services reach the most vulnerable, poorest of the poor and needy children. Provinces need to ensure the availability of places of safety and implement foster care. They are responsible for registration and monitoring of shelters and drop-in centres, and need to ensure skills for implementation of the Bill.

The severe lack of social workers, auxiliary workers and statutory social workers remains a great concern for the successful implementation of the Bill. If we are to reach the number of social workers the costing report suggests, we need decisive action. We need to use all available skills in our country to assist social workers who are generally burnt out and overwhelmed. High caseloads and poor working conditions lead to poor quality of services to service recipients.

To my knowledge, the average caseload for social workers in South Africa is a staggering 1:300, while in the UK it is 1:22. Social workers thus need to be provided with resources to enable them to execute their work. Implementation of this Bill, with the extreme shortage of social workers experienced, is thus highly questioned.

NRO’s is erg onderbefonds en kan geensins goed funksioneer met die persentasie fondse ontvang nie. Alhoewel hierdie organisasies ’n groot impak op die implementering van die wetgewing maak word hulle gekniehalter deur onvoldoende fondse. Daar moet indringend gekyk word na groter befondsing om die gehalte van sorg te verhoog.

As ons dan ons belofte aan ons kinders respekeer en wil beoefen, moet ons getrou bly aan ons grondwetlike plig wat die implementering en begroting van wetgewing en dienste behels en beïnvloed. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[NGOs are experiencing a serious lack of funding and can by no means function properly with the funds that they are receiving. Even though these organisations have a major impact on the implementation of the legislation, they are hampered by insufficient funds. There should be an in-depth probe into how funding could be increased in order to improve the quality of care. So, if we want to respect our promise to our children and keep it, we have to be true to our constitutional obligation with regard to the appropriation of money for the implementation of legislation and services.]

Hon Chair, this brings me to section 28 of the Bill of Rights entitled, Children, and my question now is: How do we raise children who do not even have homes or shelters to live in? How do we raise children who were orphaned long before they knew how to live or what life is like within a family circle? And need I remind you of our HIV/Aids pandemic? How do we do this with a Constitution that is supposed to shield these children from hardships, yet fail them? Many of our children in rural and remote rural areas carry the scars of orphanage, hunger, abuse, neglect, maltreatment and degradation.

The Bill is not clear on refugee children. Are they not to be included in the definition of a child? They too are vulnerable and needy children who need to attend school and enjoy quality of life and health care.

In South Africa there is no co-ordinating vision for ECD and nobody really knows where the money is situated. Our hon Minister of Finance did not even mention ECD in his Budget Speech.

The Aids pandemic sweeping through our country is creating about 835 orphans per day. Over the next year we expect another 300 000 children to have lost their parents. Government is aware of the magnitude of this crisis as it is their own costing report that points to the underfunding. The question must be asked: Do the officials know what their responsibilities are with regard to the Child Care Act and do they have any idea of how desperate the situation is on the ground?

A provincial breakdown on the severity of the underfunding in each province shows Limpopo at 91,14%; the Eastern Cape at 79,3%; Mpumalanga at 72,91%; Gauteng at 70,89%; the Free State at 68,65%; North West at 63,22%; KwaZulu- Natal at 59,4%; Western Cape at 17,15%; and Northern Cape at 123% - and the Northern Cape was over-funded by 23%.

In conclusion, I would like to say that, while two-thirds of our children grow up in poverty, where children are always affected the most, the challenge now is to ensure that children know their rights and that they can exercise their rights without fear. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, children in South Africa have long been faced with multiple challenges such as poverty, child abuse, lack of access to basic services and HIV/Aids. The IFP therefore acknowledges the positive spirit of this complex law which focuses attention on the needs of children holistically. However, the IFP feels that some of the issues affecting children’s lives, such as poverty, HIV/Aids and violence directed at children, as well as various issues affecting our youth have not been addressed.

The IFP believes that it is important for government and the NGOs to assist parents in developing constructive and modest methods of discipline. Many parents don’t know how to discipline their children, except by using corporal punishment. If they are not given alternatives, they will be left frustrated and confused as to how to deal with the misbehaviour of their children. This will also prevent the prosecution of parents who use inappropriate forms of discipline.

There exists a great need to support families to look after their children so as to prevent abuse and neglect from occurring. Mere legislation is not enough. Effective implementation of this legislation will require government to employ more service personnel such as social workers and psychologists to work together with the community. It will also require the existence of support mechanisms such as day care centres, parenting classes and community leisure activities such as sports fields.

Ukukhulisa umntwana ngendlela eyiyo kulele kakhulu emndenini, kubaba nomama. IsiZulu sithi libunjwa liseva; injalo iphuma edunjini. Thina bazali kudinga sihlale phansi sidingide ukuthi yini eyenza kube nje ezweni lonke. Kungabe yisimanjemanje namalungelo aso? Okanye yingoba sesilahle amagugu ethu esizwe saduma nawezinye izizwe? Asazi. Imibuzo le okufanele iphendulwe.

Ukudlwengula okungaka ezweni lethu akukaze kubonwe emandulo. Ukubulawa kwabantwana okungaka akukaze kubonwe emandulo. Ukukhulelwa okungaka akukaze kubonwe emandulo. Kukhona okusilahlekele thina njengesizwe. Kudingeka sihlale phansi sakhe kabusha. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follow.)

[The appropriate moral development of a child is mainly the responsibility of the parents, the father and the mother. Two Zulu expressions validate this claim: the clay is moulded whilst it is still soft and the other is, the apple does not fall far from the tree. We the parents need to sit down and investigate the reasons for the whole country to be like this. Could this be as a result of the new order and its rights? Or is it because we have abandoned our own cultures as a nation and chose to practise those of other nations? We do not know. These are questions that need to be answered.

The continuous surge in rape cases in our country has never been seen before. And the merciless killing of children is appalling. The high pregnancy rate we are seeing now has never been seen before. There is something that we have lost as a nation. We need to sit down and build afresh.]

We are faced with a dilemma, but we need to come together, collectively, sit down and scrutinise to see what has led to this disaster.

Dr F J VAN HEERDEN: Madam Chair, the Bill, as it is introduced to the NCOP, determined in section 139 …

… die volgende, naamlik dat die gemene reg en die gewoontereg herroep is. Ek het nie ’n weergawe gekry van die gewysigde wetsontwerp wat vandag voor die Raad dien nie, ek moes dit op die internet kry. As ’n mens op die internet kyk na die wysiging wat nou voor die Raad is en waarvan ek ’n weergawe via die internet bekom het, verbied dit enige lyfstraf of ander onmenslike of vernederende straf. Dit is in artikel 139(2).

Dit herroep dan ook die gemeenregtelike verweer van billike tugtiging, maar dit spreek nie die gewoonteregtelike aspek aan nie. Nou ontstaan hier ’n vraag: Wat is die posisie in hierdie verband? Die gewoonteregtelike magtiging om te tugtig bly nog steeds staan, dit is in terme van die internetweergawe, dit wil sê die tradisionele leiers en die tradisionele howe se tugbevoegdheid word nie geraak nie. Dit is soos dit geïnterpreteer word. Dit skep regsonsekerheid en die dubbelslagtigheid hiervan sal sekerlik nog in die howe gaan draai.

Die VF Plus is terdeë bewus van die euwels wat gepaard gaan met die misbruik en wreedheid met betrekking tot kinders. Dit kom toenemend voor. Maar om wetsgehoorsame ouers wat verantwoordelik met die opvoeding en tugtiging van hul kinders omgaan te wil kriminaliseer, soos hierdie wet spesifiek in hierdie artikel doen, is verkeerd. Dit is ironies dat dit juis kom in ’n tydperk waar onderwysers staak vanweë, onder meer, swak skooldissipline en lae salarisse. Dit gaan oor die dissipline by die skool. Dit is baie moeilik. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[… the following, namely that the common law and customary law were repealed. I did not receive a copy of the amended Bill that is being tabled before the Council today; I had to find it on the Internet. When one looks at the amendment on the Internet, that is now before the Council and the version that I obtained via the Internet, it prohibits corporal punishment or any inhumane or degrading punishment. This is contained in section 139(2).

This then also revokes the common law defence of fair punishment, but it does not address customary law. A question now arises: What is the position in this regard? In terms of the Internet version, the authority to correct in terms of common law still remains. This means that the function of traditional leaders and traditional courts to correct is not affected. This is how it is being interpreted. It creates uncertainty in the law and the ambiguity around this will certainly still end up in the courts. The FF Plus is thoroughly aware of the evils associated with the abuse of and cruelty to children. This is on the increase. But it is wrong to criminalise law-abiding parents, who deal responsibly with their children’s education and discipline, in the way that this Bill is doing it in this specific section. It is ironic that it is appearing exactly at a time when teachers are striking because of poor school discipline and low salaries among others. It deals with discipline at school which is very complex.]

There is another possibility that can arise. If I have a vexatious or a frivolous neighbour and I chastise my child one way or another, he can go and lay a charge against me for assaulting my child. By doing that, however unlikely he is to succeed, he can burden me with a lot of litigation, and that is what we must prevent. Ongelukkig, vanweë hierdie spesifieke klousule in die wetsontwerp, sal die VF Plus nie, ten spyte van ander baie goeie aspekte in die wetsontwerp, die wetsontwerp kan ondersteun nie. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Unfortunately, the FF Plus cannot support this Bill, despite the other very good aspects of the Bill, because of this specific clause. I thank you.]

Mrs B L MATLOAHELA: Hon Chairperson, hon Ministers, hon members, the ID will always commend where commendment is appropriate. Also, the ID will criticise positively where it is essential. One should expect educators to educate within the framework of the Constitution of this country, including the rights of a child as stipulated in the Bill of Rights. However, it has been found that a child was locked inside a classroom after hours and stayed there the whole night - a child of eight years of age. This occurred during 2005, for which the state is now being sued. This occurrence at Bela-Bela, in Limpopo province – through the Chair, take note hon Sibiya – is a grave contravention of the rights of a child who should be enjoying protection from all sources of abuse, according to the Bill of Rights. Mamakwa Primary School should serve as an example for the protection of the rights of a child.

Child-headed households must be legally recognised and be supported by the state, unless the state has ample accommodation for such children. What is also overlooked or accepted in our country is underage pregnancies. Sentences are not tight enough on those who contravene the laws prohibiting sexual intercourse with children, which causes children to have children. Surely, this kind of child abuse should be severely dealt with and child protection services should be intensified. All children are vulnerable and the laws of this country should address this practically. Thank you.

Mr N D HENDRICKSE: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members, the children of this country are our future. Many great men and women of the world have come from very poor and trying backgrounds. We dare not fail them! Therefore, caring for our children the way this Bill seeks to provide is commendable.

Taking into account the scourge of HIV/Aids and the fact that many households lose their parents, the sad reality is that the older children have to care for their siblings and therefore child-headed households have become a common phenomenon and it is only a given that these households must be eligible for a grant. The Bill provides for this and we are very grateful for it.

Removal of children from their families cannot be left to the report of a social worker but rather to the findings of a child psychologist. Section 186 states that, once a child is placed in foster care, no further supervision by a social worker is required, for two years. This could be problematic, as children need to ease into their foster home, and if they are desperately unhappy, they need to be able to speak to somebody in authority. A monitoring period of at least six months should be considered.

Existing schools of industry and reform schools will now become child and youth care centres. My concern, however, is that the Bill does not spell out in detail the type of industrial programme for the youth, ie training for a trade qualification etc. It also does not speak to the separation of youth who are orphans and those who have serious drug issues with the law.

Bodies consisting of businesspeople should be established to assist in finding employment for the youth who leave these institutions. They should be housed in family units with housemothers and housefathers for at least a year, thus breaking the cycle of crime by so doing.

The Bill further provides for the housing of street children. This must be commended, as they are extremely vulnerable in our community. I want to say to this House that in 1960, an organisation I was with put out a car sticker which read: “Did you hug your child today?” I would like to recommend this to members of the House, not only to hug their children but also to listen to their children and to spread that. We support the Bill. Thank you. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Hon House Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister in absentia, distinguished special delegates in absentia, representatives and members of civil society formations in the public gallery, hon members, friends and comrades, the debates and passage of the Children’s Amendment Bill marks a culmination of a long, tedious and robust process of engagement between the national Department of Social Development and the Select Committee on Social Services, which has been replicated in our legislatures.

The timing of the debate and the passage of this Bill, this afternoon, coincides with historical milestones that cannot go unnoticed by this august House, namely that in the next two weeks it will be the 31st anniversary of the Soweto youth uprising, which has changed the political landscape of this country - and that cannot be reversed.

In the next two days, the world will be celebrating the International Children’s Day, where the entire progressive humanity will be rededicating its effort towards a caring and just society where children are free. More importantly, it takes place on the occasion of the 28th anniversary of the Congress of South African Students, a revolutionary student organisation, the first of the revolutionary youth movements after the banning of the Congress Youth League to raise the banner of the Freedom Charter within the streets of South Africa as a vision for postapartheid South Africa.

We owe it as a nation and as a country to the Congress of South African Students that the fighting youth of the 1980s adopted the Freedom Charter under the slogan “Each one, Teach one”, not only as the vision for the future but, more importantly, as an alternative syllabus to the damaging education system imposed by apartheid.

Therefore the constitutional principles in the Bill of Rights, which give effect to the rights of a child to education, should be a cause for celebration of the heroic struggles of the youth under the banner of Cosas, against the inhumane system of Bantu education.

As we pass this Bill this afternoon, two days before the International Children’s Day and on the occasion of the 28th anniversary of this giant student movement, it is fitting that we, once more, lower our banners in memory of those youths who died in the line of duty in pursuit of the rights of children.

To the young generations of the youth that is learning in our country, it is fitting that we make this call that you should emulate the revolutionary legacy of service to the nation embraced by the founders of Cosas, in particular the late Comrade Ephraim Mogale, the founding president of the Congress of South African Students, who dedicated his entire life to the service of the nation for no material rewards.

We therefore call upon the youth of our country to join hands with government by reclaiming the streets to make South Africa a liberated zone for the children of our country. I think that message is important, as we observe June 16, the 28th anniversary of Cosas and the death of Comrade Ephraim Mogale, who died whilst he was a member of the provincial legislature in Limpopo and also served as a founding president of the Congress of South African Students.

We in the ANC enter this debate inspired with confidence that ours in children’s rights represent the best of human development traditions. We acknowledge, with clear minds, that the rights of children in South Africa are not just about welfare services – I think I must emphasise this – and we are not enacting this legislation to create a welfare charity regime for children, but it should be understood within the context of a developmental trajectory of the Reconstruction and Development Programme.

So, it is quite critical, much as all of us do acknowledge, that some of the implications or obligations this Bill is going to impose on our government with its limited resources, are not going to be realised within the short-term period. It is critically important that we reclaim our historic traditional way of doing things that has brought our liberation; that we mobilise the masses of our people within our communities to be the brigades that defend all these rights that we are speaking about in this legislation, because you cannot accuse the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa that it is failing children when criminals are molesting children, when criminals are violating the rights of the children, when these particular criminal incidents are taking place within the privacy of the homes where we belong, in our own neighbourhoods.

It therefore rest upon us as public representatives as to what role are we playing over and above coming audaciously on this public platform to blame the Constitution and to blame the shortage of social workers on all these crimes that are being committed against our children. I think it is important.

The Children’s Amendment Bill before us this afternoon-provides a legal framework for the implementation of the broad values, norms and standards articulated in the Children’s Act of 2005. The amending Bill creates legal certainty and uniformity of standards in the provision of partial care of children, early childhood development, prevention and early intervention services for children in alternative care.

We’ll agree and we’ll remember that the drafting process of this Bill started as early as 1997, when the SA Law Reform Commission was requested to investigate and review the Child Act, Act 74 of 1983 and to make recommendations to the Minister of Social Development. This review was necessitated by a number of shortcomings in the country’s legislative instruments dealing with children, central to which was the fact that most of the then existing laws were designed to cater for the small minority of our country’s children. That is the reality.

The fact that we have backlogs today is because all resources and all the laws that were there before 1994 were not catering for the rights of the majority of the children in this country. We must take collective responsibility for the enormity of the challenges that are confronting us, in relation to the plight of the children in our country.

The Bill deals with the service delivery part of the broad principles, norms and standards articulated in that particular Act. In terms of our constitutional dispensation, the thrust of this Bill constitutes the core functions of provinces within our multisphere system of governance. I’m not sure to what extent hon members are speaking on behalf of their provinces, because as far as I’m concerned, all provinces have actually voted unanimously in favour of this Bill, with the exception of a few, of course, on a technical basis.

Provinces have interrogated and examined their own conditions, with respect to what kind of resources they have, both human and financial, as well as the infrastructure they have, on the basis of saying that we agree with this particular Bill.

I must say that social ills affecting children in South Africa are not the creation of the Constitution, Act 108 of 1996, but they are the social problems that are a legacy of the past and they are confronting us today. All of us must break ranks with the past to confront those challenges as we encounter them.

It therefore becomes critical for all of us to strengthen the NGO sector that deals with children, as a rallying point for community support towards government intervention. I want to repeat: Crime is a social problem. Although it has economic ramifications, crime against children and violations of children’s rights are a social problem to the extent that communities are united across the political spectrum, because what affects hon Thetjeng’s child should accordingly affect me in the neighbourhood.

If we begin to transcend those particular narrow political divides in dealing with the debate on children, I think our country will move a step further, whereby we’ll be able to say that, as a community, we have succeeded without putting any blame on social workers, inefficiency of the police, lack of police vehicles and all those kinds of things.

In conclusion, I want to call on this House to consolidate a people’s contract for a better life for our children. The ANC supports the Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Madam Chairperson, ladies and gentlemen, members of this House, it seems there is an agreement among us all that there is a need to protect and ensure the lives of our children in our communities, and that we should all be part and parcel of that process of ensuring that the children that we have in our midst, in our communities, get better assistance and protection.

That cannot be the task of the government alone; it is the task, basically, that faces each and every South African adult. And this, basically, is not a new thing, especially in South Africa and, more importantly, amongst Africans and the people of South Africa that were formerly discriminated against; that the question of looking after children becomes not the issue of the family alone, but of the community as a whole. So this Bill tries to put that in legal terms and puts it as a duty of all South Africans to be able to do that.

As hon Setona has just said, this Bill has taken a long time. It has been there in front of us as a legislature for more than nine to 10 years, and we have been talking about it. We have been wanting to deal with these issues. It was one of the first things that we did as a government when we came into power in 1994. We said that you cannot claim in South Africa any socioeconomic right as an individual, but that can only be done by a child. The basis of that argument was that all of us should be able to attain those rights through the child. Quite honestly, I think it has taken quite a long time, and quite rightly and justly so.

Quite a number of people were a little bit annoyed by the time that it has taken. I do feel they might have been justified, but I think it was necessary that this Bill should be considered as thoroughly as possible so that, out of it, we can be able to say we have done what we have put down on paper and in law regarding what ought to be done for the betterment of our children.

But also, quite obviously, as many members have said, this Bill will call on us all to be on guard and we need to participate. The reality is that some issues have been raised about the question of social workers, psychologists, doctors and all those people. We do not have enough of them to be able to satisfy what this Bill requires. It is something that all of us have to work on and be able to provide.

Quite obviously, the budget is there - I want to say so. The budget is there in each and every province. To a certain extent, we are sure that it is not enough and to the best of our ability, it is in the provinces. Special emphasis is on ECD, its usage in a better way, its strengthening and the protection of children. It is the duty of all members of this House and all legislators of the National Assembly to ensure that that budget is used rightfully.

It might not be enough, I believe, but it is in the hands of the provinces. I think what we will be doing right through is to come back to this House many many a time to find out exactly how it is being used and whether it is being used correctly or not. We are controlling and monitoring it.

Quite obviously there are many things that will come out of that. Firstly, there is enough money. I think some money that we have set aside, as we have said before, is intended for the training of psychologists and social workers. What we ought to do in each and every village is to encourage our matriculants and students to ask for bursaries. I know there are not enough, but you must ask for the bursaries so that by the end of this year we know how much of that money has been used, in order to be able to do that.

But also, this budget provides for ECD so that we should be able to employ all those graduates whom we have been interested in, who have no employment at present and are within our communities. We have also agreed with quite a number of universities that they should be part and parcel of training of these specialists, that is social workers, psychologists and all the others who will take care of the children.

Quite obviously, the Bill might not encompass everything that we wanted it to. It is quite a challenge and we hope that some of those issues that have not been encompassed by the Bill will necessarily be encompassed and be part and parcel of the regulation that we will be able to put in front of you, I hope, before the end of this year. I should appeal generally to all of you to be part and parcel of that process.

We also have hopes that this ECD programme will be able to provide as many jobs as possible. Its expansion includes issues that are in the Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, which includes the skilling of ECD practitioners and increasing the numbers of children who attend ECD services.

A question was raised by the hon Mrs Lamoela. I think you asked whether the officials are aware of the implications of the Bill, and I think they are. Hence they’ve put it quite openly and very clearly that the resources are not enough.

What we have been told by Treasury was that those resources will be continuously increased, provided – I repeat - provided that we can prove beyond any reasonable doubt that they have been used correctly. In this process, we, as a government, we, as public servants will not be having that capacity to monitor. We hope you’ll be able to be part and parcel of this process.

Regarding the FF Plus, I understand your concerns, but this is 2007; it is not during the time that you and I grew up. There is the UN, there are some basic standards that have been set internationally on how to bring up children. It has been found beyond any reasonable doubt that sometimes this chastising of children is not very fruitful. Hence, we are saying parents - I think one of the speakers here has said it too - should find ways in which they can discipline their children without using violence, because violence breeds violence. This country has so much violence that we should try by all means not to encourage these ways of dealing with issues relating to discipline amongst our children. We would really appeal to the House to ensure and monitor that, and to ensure that this Bill is implemented as quickly as possible.

I think, as Mr Setona has just said here, it is quite important that we should, when this Bill leaves this House and goes to the President, be able to say that there is something that we have achieved as South Africans in that mission that we have set ourselves to build a better life for South Africans.

It is a step that we should be proud of, because if we can all think back about 10 to 20 years ago, one of the first things that we ever did as the ANC in our struggle against apartheid was to sit down amongst ourselves, long before 1990 - I think it was 1987 - and look at the plight of our children in South Africa in the midst of that violence. We did that in Harare, under the leadership of Oliver Tambo, to raise the consciousness of the world on the issues of children in our country. And, from then onwards, we started moving together, not only as the ANC, but the broad society of South Africa, to work together towards a Constitution that has brought us here today to be what we are as this country, the South Africa that we are and the democracy that we are building.

So we hope that, through this process, we will be able to unite as a community, as provinces and as a country to ensure that we do fulfil the promise that we have made to thousands of our people, and the whole world is looking at us. Many people have laid down their lives to make sure that these children, including Mr Setona here, could have a better life. I’ve just been thinking that when we were running around in 1976 he must have been about six or seven years old. Now he has given us a good lecture – actually a really good first-class lecture! [Laughter.] We should be proud of our youth. Once again, thanks a lot to him. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Ouestion put.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Thank you, Hon Minister. I shall now put the question and the question is that the Bill be agreed to. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all the delegation heads are present in the House. Are all delegation heads present?

In accordance with Rule 61, I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish.

Sizoqhubeka sivotele umbuzo. Ngizokwenza lokhu ngokulandela iziqalo zamagama ezifundazwe. Abaholi bezifundazwe bazosho kuSihlalo ukuthi bavota ngokuxhasa noma ngokungaxhasi noma ngeke bavote nhlobo. Ngizoqala ngeMpumalanga Kapa? (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[We shall now continue voting on the question. I shall do so in alphabetic order per province. Heads of delegation must please indicate to the Chairperson whether they vote in favour or against or abstain. I will start with the Eastern Cape.]

Mr A T MANYOSI: The Eastern Cape supports it, Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Free State?

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN: Vrystaat ondersteun. [Free State supports.] The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Gauteng?

Mr E M SOGONI: Elethu. [We support it unanimously.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): KwaZulu-Natal?

Mrs J N VILAKAZI: IKwaZulu-Natal ithi elethu. [KwaZulu-Natal supports it unanimously.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Limpopo?

Ms H F MATLANYANE: Limpopo is in favour.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Mpumalanga?

Ms M P THEMBA: Mpumalanga is in favour.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Northern Cape? Mr C M GOEIEMAN: Supports.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: In favour.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Western Cape?

Ms N D NTWANAMBI: Iyavumelana. [Supports]

USIHLALO WENDLU WAMAKOMIDI (Nk M N Oliphant): Zonke izifundazwe ziyawuxhasa lo Mthethosivivinywa. Ngakho-ke ngizosho ngokusemthethweni ukuthi lo Mthethosivivinywa kuvunyelwene ngawo ngaphansi Kwesigaba 65 soMthethosisekelo. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): All provinces have voted in favour of the Bill. I therefore declare the report agreed to in terms of Section 65 of the Constitution. [Applause.]]

Bill accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

             GOVERNMENT IMMOVABLE ASSET MANAGEMENT BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon) Mr R J TAU: Chairperson, basically, what we are presenting to the House is a Bill that seeks to facilitate the management of the process of immovable property in government. We have realised, for a very long time, that the fragmentation and disorientation of government, and the need for it to be able to manage and co-ordinate its immovable property, have created a lot of problems in terms of accountability concerning the immovable property and the regime itself.

The Bill seeks to provide for a uniform framework for the management of an immovable asset that is held by a national or provincial department, to ensure the co-ordination of the use of the immovable asset with the service delivery objective, because that is very key and critical that the objectives of service delivery must always be taken into account. The Bill further seeks to provide for issuing of guidelines and minimum standards in respect of immovable asset management by national or provincial departments, and to provide for matters incidental thereto.

Having noted the problems experienced by the national and provincial governments in relation to the management of the immovable property, this Bill therefore seeks to bring about transformation in the management regime in providing that uniform capacity in terms of the immovable asset management framework to promote accountability and transparency within government. You would find that, for a very long time, the situation has been that the immovable assets that are being managed by the departments, whether at provincial or national levels, because of this lack of infrastructure of managing the immovable assets, and sometimes even the disposal of these assets create serious problems at provincial and national levels. So, the Bill will ensure effective immovable asset management within government.

Also, of particular importance is to ensure co-ordination of the use of immovable assets with service delivery objects of national or provincial departments. Therefore, with this piece of legislation, we will be able to bring about better co-ordination of the immovable asset regime.

We therefore, as the Select Committee on Public Services, put this Bill before the House for adoption. Thank you very much, Chair.

Debate concluded.

Question put.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Order! I shall now put the question in respect of the Third Order. The question is that the Bill be agreed to. In accordance with Rule 63, I shall first allow political parties the opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. Is there any political party wishing to make any declaration of vote? There is none.

We shall now also proceed to the voting on the question. Those in favour will say “Aye”.

Hon MEMBERS: Aye!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Those against will say “No”. I think the ayes have it. The majority of members have voted in favour. I therefore declare the Bill agreed to in terms of section 75 of the Constitution.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

   CONVENTION ON INTERNATIONAL INTERESTS IN MOBILE EQUIPMENT BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

Mr A WATSON: Chairperson, hon members, this is a very intricate and complicated title: The Convention on International Interests in Mobile Equipment Bill. And it is not often that I have 10 minutes at my disposal to explain a complicated title in detail. So, I would implore the House to please be quiet, including Mr Goeieman, and listen carefully. [Laughter.]

The above-mentioned Bill ratifies South Africa’s obligations on matters specific to aircraft equipment, with a view to overcome problems experienced in obtaining secure and readily enforceable rights in aircraft objects.

The main issue is the widely differing approaches of different legal systems to security and title reservations, engendering uncertainty among intending financiers regarding the efficacy of their rights. This inhibits the extension of finance and increases borrowing costs, particularly in developing countries.

A diplomatic conference to adopt the convention and the protocol was held in Cape Town from 29 October to 16 November 2001, under the auspices of the International Institute for the Unification of Private Law and the International Civil Aviation Organisation, at the South African government’s invitation. That was six years ago. Sixty-eight states and 14 international organisations attended the conference and the majority have signed, ratified and acceded to the convention.

No objections were received from the public after gazetting. All the aircraft-related South African associations, together with the Chief State Law Adviser in international law and the Department of Transport, found the convention to be in compliance and not contentious.

The Select Committee on Public Services therefore, having considered the subject of the Bill [B1-2007] referred to, reports that it has agreed to the Bill and begs this House to do likewise. I thank you, Sir. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Order! Hon members, I shall now put the question in respect of the Fourth Order. The question is that the Bill be agreed to. In accordance with Rule 63 I shall first allow political parties the opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. Is there any party that wants to make a declaration? There is obviously none. We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. Those in favour will say “Aye”.

Hon MEMBERS: Aye!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Those against will say “No”. I think the ayes have it. The majority of members have voted in favour. I therefore declare the Bill agreed to in terms of section 75 of the Constitution. [Applause.]

Bill agreed to in accordane with section 75 of the Constitution.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE - PROTOCOL ON
FINANCE AND INVESTMENT OF THE SOUTHERN AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT COMMUNITY

                             (Statement) Mr E M SOGONI: Chairperson, only Friday last week, 25 May 2007, we celebrated Africa Day; a day that symbolises a renewed sense of our identity; a day that symbolises the unity of African people against all forms of oppression, colonialism and imperialism. These freedoms came with new challenges of confronting poverty and underdevelopment head-on throughout our region. Together we have to build a better Africa and the world.

The ANC and the people of South Africa have a long tradition of international engagement and solidarity with the people of Africa, in particular. Our fortunes as a nation are intimately interconnected with those of our neighbours in the SADC region. With this protocol, we seek to expedite our advance in regional economic integration, economic growth and tax harmonisation throughout this region.

The SADC heads of state have taken a bold step which would incrementally assist us as Africans in realising our dream of creating a united states of Africa. This protocol provides a clear programme of action and timeframes in achieving a common market and currency. Fourteen countries from SADC participated in this protocol. Seven countries have already signed the protocol. The remaining will sign the protocol after completing their in- country process.

The highlights of the protocol are, firstly, to create a favourable investment climate within SADC. Each signatory shall promote investment in its territory and admit investments in accordance with own laws and regulations.

The second highlight is to achieve and maintain macroeconomic stability and convergence within the region in order to achieve and maintain macroeconomic stability within the region. Signatories shall converge on stability-oriented economic policies implemented through a sound institutional structure and framework. Stability-oriented economic policies, in relation to a signatory, include, but are not limited to, restricting inflation to low and stable levels, and maintaining a prudent fiscal stance based on the avoidance of large budget deficits and financing deficits by primary money and government guaranteed debt to GDP. The macroeconomic convergence shall be measured and monitored by indicators such as the rate of inflation, ratio of budget deficit to GDP and the balance and structure of the current account.

Thirdly, to co-operate in respect of taxation and related matters, signatories shall, in the interest of SADC, develop arrangements such as professionalism and expertise of tax officials throughout the region, endeavour a common approach to the treatment and application of tax incentives and harmonisation of the administration of indirect taxes.

Fourthly, in order to co-operate and co-ordinate central banks of signatories on exchange control policies, the signatories shall co-operate and co-ordinate exchange control policies to liberalise current account transactions and achieve full currency convertibility amongst them.

I must implore colleagues in this House that the task of building the African continent is a long one. The journey must first begin at a regional level which this protocol is tasked to undertake. The foundation of a brighter continent would be built once these protocols are implemented. The members can contribute in their various regional and continental structures in order to ensure that the vision of an African Renaissance is realised.

Chairperson, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, we would like to implore this House to adopt this convention. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Report be adopted.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Order! That concludes the debate. I shall now put the question in respect of the Fifth Order. The question is that the report be agreed to. As this decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the House.

I shall now also allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of vote, in terms of Rule 71, if they so wish. Is there any province wishing to make any declaration of vote? There is obviously none.

We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour or against or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Mr A T MANYOSI: Eastern Cape supports.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Free State?

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN: Free State votes in favour.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Gauteng?

Mr E M SOGONI: EGauteng siyaxhasa. [Gauteng supports.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): KwaZulu-Natal?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): KwaZulu-Natal supports. The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Limpopo?

Ms H F MATLANYANE: Limpopo re a e thekga. [Limpopo supports.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Mpumalanga?

Ms M P THEMBA: Mpumalanga in favour.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Northern Cape?

Mr C M GOEIEMAN: Noord-Kaap ondersteun. [Northern Cape supports.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: North West ke ya rona. (North West supports.)

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Western Cape?

Ms N D NTWANAMBI: Iintshona-Koloni iyaxhasa. [Western Cape supports.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): All nine provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the report adopted in terms of section 65 of the Constitution.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The Council adjourned at 16:20 ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

                         MONDAY, 28 MAY 2007 ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Introduction of Bills

(1)    The Minister of Finance


     (a)      Co-operative Banks Bill [B 13—2007] (National
         Assembly—proposed sec 75) [Explanatory summary of Bill and
         prior notice of its introduction published in Government
         Gazette No 29880 of 18 May 2007.]


         Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on
         Finance of the National Assembly, as well as referral to the
         Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of
         Joint Rule 160.
         In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification
         of the Bill may be submitted to the JTM within three
         parliamentary working days.

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson (a) Strategic Plan for the Third Parliament of the Republic of South Africa for 2004-2009.

2. The Minister of Finance

(a)    General Notice No 212 published in Government Gazette No 29658
     dated 23 February 2007: Draft municipal regulations on minimum
     competency levels: Call for comments, tabled in terms of section
     169(2) of the Local Government: Municipal Finance Management Act,
     2003 (Act No 56 of 2003).


     Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Finance for consideration,
     the committee to confer with the Portfolio Committee on Provincial
     and Local Government.

1. The Minister for the Public Service and Administration (a) Strategic Plan for the South African Management Development Institute (SAMDI) for 2007/08 to 2009/10.

2. The Minister of Safety and Security (a) Memorandum of Understanding between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of Saint Lucia on the Contribution of the South African Police Service to the International Police Component for the ICC Cricket World Cup West Indies 2007, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.

(b)    Memorandum of Understanding between the Government of the
     Republic of South Africa and the Government of Barbados on the
     Contribution of the South African Police Service to the
     International Police Component for the ICC Cricket World Cup West
     Indies 2007, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution,
     1996.
(c)    Memorandum of Understanding between the Government of the
     Republic of South Africa and the Government of Grenada on the
     Contribution of the South African Police Service to the
     International Police Component for the ICC Cricket World Cup West
     Indies 2007, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution,
     1996.

National Council of Provinces

1. The Chairperson Petition from Ms Joyce Gongxeka. Referred to the Select Committee on Members’Legislative Proposals for consideration and report.

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. Report of the Joint Monitoring Committee on the Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Children, Youth and Disabled Persons on the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities and its Optional Protocol, dated 25 May 2007:

The Joint Monitoring Committee on the Improvement of Quality of Life
and Status of Children, Youth and Disabled Persons, having considered
the request for approval by Parliament of the Convention on the Rights
of Persons with Disabilities and its Optional Protocol, referred to it,
recommends that the House and the Council, in terms of section 231(2)
of the Constitution, approve the said Convention. Request to be considered.

                        TUESDAY, 29 MAY 2007

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson have on 12 April 2007 signed an agreement between the Parliament of South Africa and the Inter- Parliamentary Union (IPU) concerning the 118th Assembly of the IPU and related matters, as follows:

CREDA SCAN IN DOC – PAGES 941-957

1. Bills passed by Houses—to be submitted to President for assent

(1)    Bills passed by National Council of Provinces on 29 May 2007:


     (a)      Government Immovable Asset Management Bill [B 1B—2006]
        (National Assembly—sec 75).


     (b)      Convention on International Interests in Mobile Equipment
        Bill [B 1—2007] (National Assembly—sec 75).

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. Report of the Joint Standing Committee on Defence on Employment of SANDF to West Indies, dated 25 May 2007:

   The Joint Standing Committee on Defence, having considered the letter from the President on the employment of the South African National Defence Force (SANDF) to the West Indies, referred to the Committee, reports that it has concluded its deliberations thereon.

2. Report of the Joint Standing Committee on Defence on Employment of SANDF to Nepal, dated 25 May 2007:

   The Joint Standing Committee on Defence, having considered the letter from the President on the employment of the South African National Defence Force (SANDF) to Nepal, referred to the Committee, reports that it has concluded its deliberations thereon.

3. Report of the Joint Standing Committee on Defence on Employment of SANDF to Mozambique, dated 25 May 2007:

   The Joint Standing Committee on Defence, having considered the letter from the President on the employment of the South African National Defence Force (SANDF) to Mozambique, referred to the Committee, reports that it has concluded its deliberations thereon.