FRIDAY, 1 JUNE 2007 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
                                ____

The Council met at 09:32.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

                    SILENT PRAYERS OR MEDITATION

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): There will now be an opportunity for silent prayers or meditation. Please be seated. [Interjections.]

Mr A WATSON: Chairperson, I object. This is the second time that this has happened. Will you give us ample time to say prayers, please?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Mr T S Setona): No, you are not going to prescribe how …

Mr A WATSON: Yes, I object.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Mr T S Setona): No, you can’t do that. Your objection is not accepted.

Mr A WATSON: This House has a Rule that says there should be a moment of silence for prayers or meditation and that shouldn’t happen in one sentence.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON:(Mr T S Setona): Your words are not the ruling of the House. Can you take your seat!

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

MOTHER AND BABY ATTACKED BY CHARGING BUFFALO WHILE CROSSING BORDER FROM ZIMBABWE

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr M A MZIZI: Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:

That the Council –

  1) notes -


     (a)      with shock that a nine-month-old baby has escaped with
         head injuries after being attacked by a charging buffalo near
         Musina; and
     (b)      that the baby was on her mother’s back and that they had
         illegally crossed a border fence from Zimbabwe into South
         Africa when the attack took place;


  2) urges the relevant authorities to be vigilant in their patrolling
     of our porous borders and to ensure that the fences are well
     maintained; and

(3) wishes the injured baby a speedy and full recovery.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Mr T S Setona): Hon members, I’m dealing with motions without notice, and that was a motion without notice. Can I get another motion without notice?

I think that that motion was agreed to in the light of the fact that there was no objection.

Mnr J W LE ROUX: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek gee hiermee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag sal voorstel:

Dat die Raad kennis neem dat-


(1)    nóg ’n leerling gister by een van ons hoërskole met ’n skerp
      voorwerp in die bors gesteek is;
(2)    die vlaag van geweld en misdaad by ons skole ongekende afmetings
      aanneem;


(3)    dwelms en pornografie vryelik by talle skole beskikbaar is en
      dat daar geen sprake meer van streng dissipline bestaan nie; en


(4)    die regering geen drastiese stappe doen om hierdie ernstige
      probleme op te los nie. (Translation of Afrikaans draft resolution follows.)

[Mr J W LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting I shall move:

That the Council notes that –

  1) another learner has been stabbed with a sharp object at one of our
     secondary schools;

(2) the wave of violence and crime at our schools is reaching unprecedented levels;

(3) drugs and pornography are freely available at many schools and that there is no suggestion of strict discipline anymore; and

(4) the government is taking no drastic steps to solve these serious problems.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Mr T S Setona): Is there any objection to the motion? [Interjections.] The motion is objected to and will therefore be printed on the Order Paper as a notice of motion. Any further … [Interjections.]

Mr A WATSON: Chairperson, on a point of order: That was a notice of a motion. It cannot be objected to.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Mr T S Setona): Excuse me, can you repeat that?

Mr A WATSON: Hon Le Roux’s motion was a notice of motion. He very clearly said: “Ek gee kennis …” [“I give notice …”]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Mr T S Setona): Hon Watson, after hon Mzizi moved his motion I made a ruling, as guidance from the Chair, that I was starting with motions without notice. If you didn’t hear it, I am sorry about that. Okay, can we proceed.

Are there any further motions without notice? In the absence of further motions without notice, is there any member who wishes to give a notice of a motion.

                          NOTICE OF MOTION

Mr A WATSON: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting day of the Council I shall propose, on behalf of the DA:

That the Council –

 1) notes -


    (a)      with disdain the negative influence of the internal strife
         within the ANC on governance at local level;


    (b)      that a scheduled meeting of the Umjindi Local Municipality
         in Mpumalanga was postponed at the last minute on Wednesday,
         30 May 2007 because according to the ANC Mayor, some unwanted
         members of the community were present in the chamber;

    (c)      that this meeting where the budget was to be tabled, was
         rescheduled, without proper notice, for yesterday, 31 May, to
         take place at a secret venue known only to the mayoral
         committee and certain officials, and that councillors were
         collected from their homes at 07:00 and transported to the
         secret venue;

 2) further notes that the municipal budget was passed at this meeting
    despite the fact that no proper community consultation had taken
    place and despite the fact that the DA voted against the illegal
    tabling of the budget;

 3) finally notes that the ANC Mayor cited as the reason for this the
    fact that all community meetings were disrupted by factions within
    the ANC and that no such meetings have been held in Umjindi since
    February 2007; and

(4) therefore resolves to condemn the actions of the ANC leadership in Umjindi and call on the Premier and the ANC leadership in Mpumalanga to take remedial action.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL


                           (Policy debate)

Vote No 2 – Parliament:

USIHLALO WOMKHANDLU KAZWELONKE WEZIFUNDAZWE: Sanibonani nonke! Sihlalo, sinodaba olukhulu namhlanje esizoxoxa ngalo maqondana neVoti leSabiwomali sePhalamende oluthinta kakhulu aMalungu ePhalamende nokusebenza kwawo. Ngizozama-ke ukuthi ngikhulume kule nkulumo-mpikiswano ngibe ngisebenzisa lo mbhalo wenkulumo yami engiwuphethe lapha. Yinde kakhudlwana kodwa ngithanda ukuthi ishicilelwe kuHansard yonke, njengoba injalo. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Greetings to you all! Chairperson, today we have an important issue to discuss, the Parliamentary Budget Vote which concerns the Members of Parliament and their duties. I will try to participate in this debate using the speech that I have written here. It is a bit long, but I insist that it should be published as it is in Hansard.]

I wish to thank you for the opportunity to present to the House the budget of Parliament for the 2007-08 financial year. As I do so, I must also take this occasion to reflect on the road we have travelled since we presented the last budget.

Without doubt, we are beginning to make inroads towards realising our vision of building an effective Parliament that is responsive to the needs of the people and that is driven by the idea of realising a better quality of life for all the people of South Africa. Our Parliament is geared towards ensuring that we put our people at the centre as we make advances in implementing our common national agenda.

The role of Parliament is to implement the core objectives and I would like to mention five of them: to pass the laws; to oversee the scrutinisation of executive action; to facilitate public participation and involvement; to facilitate co-operative government; and to facilitate international participation.

In order to achieve these, we need an administrative staff complement that will support us with, among other things, strategic leadership, institutional policy and overall management. To ensure that we get the effective institutional support we deserve from the administration, an allocation of R191 million is earmarked to strengthen the capacity of our administrative services. A respectable chunk of this money will also go towards improving our technology in Parliament.

Critical transformation work has taken place in this area and more is to take place in the course of the year. We took time to review our internal state as an institution, interrogated our systems and processes, identified weaknesses and inefficiencies and determined the necessary interventions and remedial actions required.

Several administration components will be undergoing significant restructuring. The legislation and oversight division, public affairs, the financial management office and human resources will undergo a major transformation in the course of this year.

Briefly, let me touch on the equality review. You would be aware that part of this includes the initiation, in the past year, of the equality review exercise with a view to following up the implementation of the progressive legislation that we pass. This exercise demonstrated to us the need to seriously go beyond passing legislation and to monitor its implementation. This is now made much more significant by the fact that, since our first democratic Parliament in 1994, we have passed close to 1 000 pieces of legislation whose impact on the lives of our people we have not tested.

It is no coincidence, therefore, that this year we decided to adopt the theme: Masijule Ngengxoxo Mzansi, that is, “Let’s deepen the debate, South Africa”. This is one of our attempts to deepen our nation’s debate on the challenges that continue to confront us as we intensify the transformation of our society. We hope that, through our national dialogue, we will be able to mobilise our people to work together in finding solutions to our common challenges.

Through this national dialogue, we must sharpen our interventions towards creating a better quality of life for our people, as representatives of the collective voice of our people. We hope to achieve this through utilising the budget we put before you today.

In terms of the budget itself, Parliament’s appropriation for 2007-08 has increased notably to more than R1 billion. This will be spread across five programmatic areas to enable improved implementation and focus. These programmatic areas are the following: administration, which includes all the support functions required by Parliament to fulfil its constitutional functions; legislation and oversight, which includes a legislative agenda that is aimed at accelerating transformation of our society, coupled with consistent monitoring of executive action on the basis of this agenda; public and international participation, which includes involvement of the people in parliamentary processes, and Parliament’s African and global agenda; members’ facilities, which will get R173 million that is allocated this year to support all the services aimed at creating an enabling environment for members to perform their functions; and associated services, which includes financial support to political parties represented in Parliament. Associated services’ allocation is currently R245 million, averaging a 21% growth rate over the past three years owing, in the main, to a significant increase especially with regard to constituency allowances and an increase in the number of political parties represented in Parliament.

As I mentioned earlier, a progressive legislative framework has been achieved. It is now incumbent upon this Parliament to ensure that all the benefits envisaged in the enactment of legislation are realised by the intended beneficiaries, that is our people. As expected, the allocation within this area has increased from R80 million, three years ago, to R126 million last year. This year’s allocation is R173 million, signalling the continued deepening of the oversight role of Parliament.

Regarding the strategic objectives, the oversight function is about the development of a quality process of scrutinising the action of the executive arm of government. Public participation is the deepening of public involvement, the involvement of the public and being a people- centred Parliament. Efficiency and effectiveness improve institutional governance and policy-implementing model systems.

With respect to the oversight function, last year we committed to reporting back to this House regarding the work of the oversight and accountability task team. I’m pleased to report that the draft oversight model has been completed and will be finalised for adoption by the Joint Rules Committee in the course of this year. The model strives to present a framework within which Parliament’s oversight role can be structured so as to enhance Parliament’s oversight capacity as all of us have to bring the current practices in line with Parliament’s strategic path.

The model focuses on the following areas: determining the systems and human resource capacity required for the function of oversight; the necessary technical mechanisms and tools; research and capacity for parliamentary committees; the implementation of systems to manage information within committees and developing a system to ensure that inputs from the public are channelled through to appropriate committees; determining the necessary changes to the Rules in order to create an integrated parliamentary oversight committee; continuous capacity development on the part of members, with regard to information and communication technology, budgeting and other skills; and lastly, procedure for executive compliance.

Other work on improving oversight relates to the development of best practice oversight, development of rules for oversight practices and the development of a legislative framework for oversight. Work to develop the necessary drafts is under way regarding these areas.

The NCOP’s Provincial Week has been a very prominent action that we have taken as it allows the members to go back to the provinces, interact with their counterparts in the provinces, come back and report to Parliament.

Last month, as you would also be aware, we had a two-day intergovernmental summit wherein we reviewed our roles as the political institution that represents the interests of the provinces and local government at national level. The summit showed us how much we still have to do and how far we still have to go in fostering co-operative governance. We are hopeful that this budget will help us achieve this mandate.

Public participation, to us, is about Parliament creating opportunities for participation by the members of the public. As part of the elaboration of our theme, our public participation programme will integrate more substance aimed at the following: reconceptualisation of the programmes in order to entrench them firmly in the political programme of Parliament and to ensure that the political process underlines this; involvement of the relevant committees of Parliament in the planning and execution of programmes as well as implementation, monitoring and following up on the outcomes; and facilitation of strategic partnership and broader national participation to advance the purposes set out for the programme.

A special focus will be on the engagement of the people on the periphery and collaborating more meaningfully with state departments and entities as well as provincial and local structures. All our flagship programmes will comply with this reformulation. These flagship programmes are the People’s Assembly, which will take place in the Eastern Cape this year; the Youth Parliament which will be taking place on the week of 22 June here in Parliament; and the Women’s Parliament, which will take place in August, also in Parliament. In terms of the Women’s Parliament, it aims also to address the issues of exploitation of women and girl-children.

I have been talking about the NCOP Provincial Week earlier on. This is one of the vehicles we use in addition to our Taking Parliament to the People to intensify our efforts in involving the public with Parliament. These prove to be very important initiatives in assisting the NCOP to breach the gap between our rural communities and Parliament, by providing a direct link to them. As the NCOP, we need to work hard in ensuring that these programmes deliver the impact that we initially intended them to. Over and above these, we must continue to ensure that our collective activities are aligned with our umbrella Programme 2009.

In terms of capacity-building and the committees, work relating to the further capacitating of our committees is progressing very well. Areas of focus within this year will include the identification and provision of more space for committees to work in; training and oversight-related work; and research, communication, administration, librarian and legal capacity for committees. Providing additional oversight capacity and support to the committees of Parliament in the form of research, communication, technical and content support is an ongoing project for further improving the efficiency of Parliament’s oversight capability.

Skills training for members has been established through the leadership development programme. As you are aware that quite a number of MPs graduated last month from this programme. I wish more members could get into this programme because it’s a very useful programme for the Members of Parliament.

Regarding space utilisation, we are in the process of acquiring the much- needed space to accommodate the growing resource needs of our democracy. Parliament was designed as an exclusive environment and we desperately need space to capture the spirit of our freedom. In terms of reviewing the Chapter 9 institutions, the members would be aware that, in the course of this year, we will receive a review report on the performance of the Chapter 9 institutions. These are all state institutions which support our constitutional democracy. An ad hoc committee was established for this purpose and its review has been extended to include the National Youth Commission, the Pan-South African Language Board and the Financial and Fiscal Commission. The ad hoc committee’s focus has been mainly on the role and function of these institutions, their relationship with other bodies, institutional governance, their interaction with the public and their financial and other resource-related matters.

Regarding Parliament’s self-assessment, in the report of the Joint Co- ordinating Committee on the African Peer Review Mechanism tabled in Parliament we proposed, as Parliament, to embark on comprehensive self- assessment which would be conducted by an independent panel. So, an independent panel of eminent South Africans drawn from different sectors of society was constituted for this purpose. This work is under way and we expect a report in the course of the year. If all things go well, we should debate this report before we embark on the festive season this year.

Our African and international agenda has brought to the fore the importance of forging people-to-people contracts with other parliaments within our continent and beyond. The agreements that we have ratified with our sister parliaments across the globe incorporate various aspects to enable mutual learning, strategic collaboration and exchanges. The developments in the continent necessitate that we pay particular attention to these.

Our government, led by President Thabo Mbeki, plays a vital role in redevelopment efforts. We cannot afford to be left behind as Members of Parliament. More than ever before, we need to engage with our counterparts to better understand the challenges that face us and the common solution we are seeking to achieve on the continent.

You would know how much the President is engaged in peacekeeping efforts and trying to achieve peace in all the countries of the continent. As such, we hosted the SADC peer conference last year. Next month, in July, this Parliament will be hosting the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association- Africa Region conference. Next year, in April, we will be hosting the Inter- Parliamentary Union.

Members will recall that last week, on 25 May, we celebrated Africa Day for the first time as Parliament, with a seminar that took place in this Parliament and we had, inter alia, a grand debate on the USA – the “USA” does not mean United States of America, but it means the “united states of Africa”. This we hope to make a regular feature in our international agenda.

This House will also recall the pioneering role played by Parliament in the establishment of the Pan-African Parliament when we provided our resources for that purpose. Whilst PAP is now operating independently, with its own new structures and staffing, the Parliament of the Republic continues to play a leading role in the functioning of PAP.

In conclusion, clearly, we have come a long way since we started in 2004. We have made many strides. We are now slowly approaching the end of this term and more hard work is required. As you are aware, this year of the 10th anniversary of the NCOP brings certain challenges for us. The strengthening of the institution will need that we look carefully at the recommendations of the summit we held recently and act on those areas, where we agree. We have the responsibility to leave a legacy for the next membership of this House and future generations.

With those few words, Mr Chairman, allow me to commend Parliament’s budget to this House. I thank you all. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Chairperson, hon members, the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa enjoins all of us, as stakeholders, to transform our society and country for the achievement of a better life for all. To this end, the preamble to our Constitution states, inter alia:

We therefore, through our freely elected representatives, adopt this Constitution as the supreme law of the Republic so as to –

  Heal the divisions of the past and establish a society based on
  democratic values, social justice and fundamental human rights;


  Lay the foundations for a democratic and open society in which
  government is based on the will of the people and every citizen is
  equally protected by law;


  Improve the quality of life of all citizens and free the potential of
  each person; and


  Build a united and democratic South Africa able to take its rightful
  place as a sovereign state in the family of nations.

To conform to this mandate we, as Parliament, must implement the core functions which indicate our main business. These are: to pass laws, to oversee and scrutinise executive action, to facilitate public participation and involvement, to facilitate co-operative government and to facilitate international participation.

As indicated, last year we saw the passing of 28 Bills, a marked decrease from the average of 75 Bills per year from 1994 to 2005. This, however, should not perturb members as it shows that much of the legislation needed to transform our society from the ills of apartheid has been passed. This small quantity of laws passed does not in any way impair or impact negatively on the quality of the laws we pass.

Last year, on the occasion of parliamentary Budget Vote 1, I spoke of the legislators having to pass quality laws, speak the unpalatable truth or expose the weakness in the legislative scheme, no matter how unpopular that makes them with the people. That is what was evident when we passed the Civil Union Act, despite the outcry from some sections of the society. We had to pass this law because it is quality law that promotes nondiscrimination and equal protection by law.

The hon Chairperson stated in his speech that this third Parliament has shifted more towards oversight than passing legislation. This is necessary because the fewer number of laws we pass provides us with more time to embark more on our oversight role. This is necessary, given the serious challenges that our people still face with regard to service delivery.

To us, as the NCOP, this is more important because of the strategic oversight position that we occupy. We have the responsibility and mandate to keep a constant eye on the processes that must integrate legislative and executive decisions in all spheres of government. To ensure the practical implementation of these decisions, especially to the extent that they impact directly on the lives of the people, it is now incumbent on us to turn this possibility into a probability.

That is why, at the beginning of this year, we had a workshop to begin to tease out our priorities, where we resolved to work even harder this year in our oversight role. This decision was informed by the reports we got from our programmes such as Taking Parliament to the People and the Provincial Week. These reports indicate the challenges that our people out there still face. The workshop highlighted for us how far we still need to go with our oversight work.

We have also had two Provincial Week sessions since last year’s Budget Vote – one in October last year and one in May this year. On 20 June, in our plenary, we intend having a debate in consideration of the report on the NCOP Provincial Week of 14 to 18 May 2007. This report will show us which areas of oversight we need to improve on.

I have to mention that this shift towards oversight bodes well with our Programme 2009 that states, inter alia:

The NCOP must closely monitor the programmes announced by the President in his first state of the nation address to the third Parliament, and in each annual address up to the end of the term, in order to be able to meaningfully assist in the process of accelerating service delivery. Towards this, our committees will pull out the specific issues the President raised, engage with them and draw up detailed plans and specific programmes for oversight work so that we can monitor implementation.

The work of our committees and the Whippery is therefore critical in ensuring that we implement this programme.

The Constitution, in section 72(1) states:

1. (1) The National Council of Provinces must – (a) facilitate public involvement in the legislative and other processes of the Council and its committees; and (b) conduct its business in an open manner, and hold its sittings, and those of its committees, in public …

Members should remember that public participation is the key to ensuring that government understands the needs of the people and makes decisions that will meet those in the best possible way. Once the stakeholders are on board, the next step is the identification of problems and needs through consultation. Through interactive dialogue, public participation should lead to consensus- building and a convergence of thinking amongst stakeholders and ultimately, shared solutions. This we do through our projects such as the People’s Assembly and Taking Parliament to the People. However, the question is: Are these programmes enough? Before we answer that question, we need to ensure that we make optimum use of them and be ready to modify them to suit the needs of our citizenry.

We know that our parliamentary systems allow for submissions of inputs and petitions by the public, but this is not happening as intended. As the public representatives, we need to take the initiative to conscientise the public about public participation. This will fortify our democracy and ensure that we are people-driven. It will also augur well for our theme for this year: Masijule Ngengxoxo Mzansi [Let us deepen the debate, South Africa].

In January this year, we had a workshop on intergovernmental relations in Somerset West. This was in conformity with our revised programme of action for our Programme 2009, as adopted in 2004, wherein we, inter alia, stated that the NCOP must play more roles in promoting the principles of co- operative government and intergovernmental relations.

This workshop was necessary because we first wanted to prepare for the summit and therefore wanted an opportunity to meet as different role- players and stakeholders. But importantly, we needed to explore fully our role in the Intergovernmental Relations, IGR, system as provided for by the Constitution’s Chapter 3. We could not afford to take this lightly because of the central challenge in intergovernmental relations, which is to ensure that the machinery of government works better, in a more integrated way and more efficiently to deliver services to communities and people.

The workshop was important to us because, as the House that straddles all three spheres of government, we must always ask ourselves the question: Are the three spheres of our government co-operating and co-ordinating their work in a manner defined in the Constitution? It also gave us an opportunity to explore a number of issues pertaining to the critical role we play in promoting the principles of intergovernmental relations and co- operative government.

The IGR summit from 2 to 3 May, which included a review of the NCOP after 10 years, was necessary because, for our intergovernmental relations to function properly, the NCOP has to function properly and this is the House where all these three spheres of government meet.

The review indicated to us that though we cannot be fully satisfied with what we have achieved, we can, however, be proud. It gave us an opportunity to trace our mistakes and learn from them. It also showed us that with the experience that we have gained in the past 10 years, we can continue on this good and successful path of our democracy. Of course, the challenge is charting the way forward because co-operative government goes to the core of our relationship with the different spheres.

The Chairperson of the NCOP referred in his speech to our international agenda and the need for us to show some bias towards Africa. This must be so because, first of all, we are in Africa. Also, South Africa is strategically positioned to play a big role in promoting development and alleviating poverty in Africa as well as ensuring that the 21st century is truly an African century.

We hosted the SADC Parliamentary Forum Conference last year and next month, in July, we will be hosting the CPA-Africa Region Conference. Members will recall that last week, on 25 May, we celebrated Africa Day for the first time as Parliament with a seminar that discussed, inter alia, the grand debate of Union Government of Africa – “united ttates of Africa”. This we hope to make a regular feature of our international agenda.

In conclusion, let me make a special mention of the new emblem of Parliament, which we unveiled a couple of months ago. We needed this icon of democracy in order to make an important political statement. Now is the time to heed this drumbeat as it makes a call to us to serve our people. Our emblem is about our Constitution, our Parliament, our people and our country and it is there to remind us of our responsibility.

With all these events I have referred to, I think we are doing our bit to transform our society and country for the achievement of a better life for all. I thank you. Ke a leboga. Enkosi. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Ms M N Oliphant): Chairperson, Deputy Chair, hon members, comrades and friends …

… ngithatha leli thuba ngicaphune uMthethosisekelo waleli zwe, othi:

UMkhandlu Wezifundazwe umele izifundazwe, ukuqinisekisa ukuthi izinhloso zezifundazwe ziyabhekelelwa emkhakheni kahulumeni kazwelonke. Ukwenza lokhu ngokuthi ubambe iqhaza ezinhlelweni zokushaywa kwemithetho ngokuthi wenze izigcawu ezivulela umphakathi ukuba nezwi ekuthathweni kwezinqumo ezintweni ezibhekene nezifundazwe.

Leso yisigaba 42(4).

SiwuMkhandlu, lokho okubalwe ngenhla sikwenza ngalezi zindlela ezilandelayo: Ukuhlangana kwamakomidi ahlukene, lapho iMinyango kahulumeni yethula khona imibiko njalo ngonyaka wezimali maqondana nokuthi yini ezoyenza ngokohlelo lukahulumeni nangokwesabiwomali; amakomidi abuye alandelele ukubheka ukuthi ngabe ngempela lokho kuyenzeka na, ngokuthi abuze imibuzo koNgqongqoshe mayelana nenqubekela-phambili. ONgqongqoshe beza kuyo le Ndlu bazophendula; sibuye sibe nezinkulumompikiswano kuyo le Ndlu. Sivakashela izifundazwe ukuyobona ukuthi ngabe esitshelwa khona kuyenzeka yini, siphinde sibike futhi uma sesibuya kuyo le Ndlu; futhi-ke, ngokuyisa iPhalamende kubantu, amakomiti ayalandelela ukubona ukuthi okushiwo abantu ngabe kuyalungiswa na.

Mangikusho-ke futhi ukuthi, uma kunomthetho odingidwayo noma umthetho ochitshiyelwayo, ikakhulukazi ongaphansi kwesigaba 76 futhi oqondene nezinto ezithinta izifundazwe, amakomidi aya ezifundazweni ukuze axoxisane nazo bese zona zivula izigcawu zokuthi umphakathi uze ngaphambili uzobeka imibono yawo ngalowo mthetho. Ekugcineni, yizifundazwe ezishoyo ukuthi umthetho ugunyazwe noma unqandwe.

Ngiyafisa-ke ukusho ukuthi, kumele uma izifundazwe sezisho izwi lazo lokugcina, zikuqikelele ukuthi ubani okumele asayinde incwadi enezwi lokugcina lesifundazwe. Siyafisa, Sihlalo, ukuthi oSomlomo bezifundazwe, njengabaholi bezishayamthetho, lokhu bakuthathele ezandleni zabo futhi imibiko ifike ngaphambi kosuku lokuthi ikomidi lihlale, selizothatha isinqumo sokugcina. Sihlalo, yebo amakomidi ayaphumelela noma esebenza kanzinyana ngenxa yokushoda kwezinsiza. Phambilini sacela ukuthi amakomidi awasizwe ngokuthi kwengezwe abasebenzi. Siyihhovisi loSihlalo beNdlu - elibhekelele amakomidi kanye nokulandelela uhlelo lukahulumeni - sabhala incwadi eya kuNobhala wePhalamende, lapho sacela-ke ukuthi ihhovisi likaNobhala wale Ndlu Yomkhandlu Kazwelonke Wezifundazwe, kanye nehhovisi likasihlalo basilandelele lolo daba ukuthi ngabe seluhambe lwafika kuphi.

Siyafisa futhi ukusho ukuthi uma abasebenzi laba abenza ucwaningo beqashwa, siqashelwe abantu abanolwazi nobuchule ngaphansi kwalolo hlelo lwalowo Mnyango. Asifuni ukugcina sesithatha noma ngabe ubani ngoba ethi unalo ulwazi lokuthola imininingwane eqondene nalowo Mnyango.

Siyafisa ukusho futhi ukuthi makungabhekelelwa nje kuphela ukuthi imali ayikho kuhulumeni. Kodwa abasebenzi kufanele bakhokhelwe ukuze sikwazi ukuthola abasebenzi abazokwazi ukwenza umsebenzi ozofezekisa izidingo zale Ndlu kanye nezidingo zomphakathi.

Sihlalo, iSabiwomali salo nyaka samakomidi sehle ngaphezu kwa-50%. Amakomiti ayisihlanu anikezwe R200 000. Uma singabheka iKomidi Lezokuphepha Nezomthethosisekelo, kumanje lisele na-R150 512 kodwa sisekuMeyi. Umbuzo uthi: Njengoba kunemithetho engaphambi kwaleli komidi, bazosebenza ngani? Futhi, maqondana nezinto ebezishiwo ngabantu, okufanele sizilandelele, bazokwazi yini ukuthi babuyele ezifundazweni bayobheka ukuthi lezo zinto ziyenzeka?

IKomidi Lohulumeni Bezasekhaya futhi kuyimanje lisele na-R186 676. Sithathe isinqumo siyiNdlu yalo Mkhandlu ukuthi kuzofanele sibabheke ngqo ohulumeni basekhaya. IKomidi Lohulumeni Bezasekhaya libuye libhekelele ikakhulukazi lapho oNgqongqoshe bezifundazwe bethatha izinqumo zokuthi omasipala kuzofanele babuyele ngaphansi kukaNgqongqoshe wesifundazwe, uma bengasebenzanga kahle.

Yebo, ngonyaka ophelile amakomidi awakwazanga ukusebenzisa yonke imali ayeyabelwe, kodwa-ke kufanele sibheke ukuthi ngabe imbangela yalokho kwaba yini. Imbangela kwaba ngukuthi uhlelo lwePhalamende belushintsha njalo. Kodwa thina njengoMkhandlu Kazwelonke Wezifundazwe sesinohlelo lonyaka olushoyo ukuthi yiziphi izinsuku ezibekelwe umsebenzi wamakomidi ngqo. Amakomidi azokwazi ukuthola isikhathi esiningi sokuthi akwazi ukusebenza.

Ohlelweni lwethu loMkhandlu Kazwelonke Wezifundazwe, kunohlelo lwezobudlelwano bezangaphakathi nezangaphandle, esingathi olwe-internal and international relations. Ngokwesabiwomali esikhona, angiboni ukuthi amakomidi azokwazi ukuthi abambe iqhaza kulezi zinhlelo, ikakhulukazi kwezobudlelwano bezangaphandle.

Ngithanda ukubuyela futhi oHlelweni lwe-Members’ Facilities. Kunohlelo lokuthengwa kwamakhompiyutha aphathwayo nahlala phezu kwetafula, okuthiwe ilungu alizikhethele ngokwalo. Amalungu amaningi akhetha amakhompiyutha aphathwayo. Amalungu ayawakhokhela lawa makhompiyutha, okusho ukuthi awabo ngoba bayawakhokhela. Bengizothi-ke, Sihlalo, kunganjani ukuthi mhlawumbe sizame, siyiPhalamende, ukuthi okungenani sithengele amalungu amakhompiyutha ahlala phezu kwetafula ukuze kube yiwona angawePhalamende, kuthi uma ilungu lihamba leyo khompiyutha isale lapha ngemuva.

Ekugcineni-ke, Sihlalo, kukhona le nto yokuthi sicela abezokuphathwa komsebenzi baqikelele ukuthi imininingwane ebhalwe phansi ihlale ikhona. Ngikusho lokhu ngokwazi isimo engike ngadlula kuso ngonyaka odlule, u-2006, lapho ngacelwa ukuthi ngibuyisele emuva ikhompiyutha ephathwayo ibe ikhokhelwa yimi. Ukuba ngangingenawo amaphepha akhomba ukuthi ngiyayikhokhela ngabe yaphindela emuva leyo khompiyutha ngoba bathi, ngokwemininingwane ebhalwe phansi, akukho okukhombisayo ukuthi bengikhokha.

Okunye ukuthi, maqondana nalawo malungu anelungelo lokugibela endaweni yezicukuthwane ebhanoyini ngokomsebenzi. N gisho noma engabe ahamba ngokomsebenzi wePhalamende noma wamakomiti, kufanele asebenzise leyo ndawo yezicukuthwane. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[… I take this opportunity to quote from the Constitution of this country, which states that:

The National Council of Provinces represents the provinces to ensure that provincial interests are taken into account in the national sphere of government. It does this mainly by participating in the national legislative process and by providing a national forum for public consideration of issues affecting the provinces.

That is section 42 (4).

As the NCOP, we do the abovementioned in the following ways: There are meetings of different committees, where government departments submit their annual reports at the end of each financial year detailing the government- approved programme of action and the money they will use; the committees also make a follow-up to see whether that happens by putting questions to the Ministers about the progress made. The Ministers also come to this House to respond to the questions asked. We also have debates in this same House. We visit the provinces to see whether what we are told is really happening, and when we come back, we report to this House; again, by taking Parliament to the people, the committees follow up on whether what the people are complaining about is corrected.

Let me also state again that if there is a Bill that is discussed or an amending Bill, especially the section 76 Bills which deal with matters directly affecting the provinces, the committees go to provinces to hold public hearings for the public to come and voice their opinions about that particular piece of legislation. It is the provinces that have a final say as to whether the legislation should be passed or not.

I also wish to state that when provinces are stating their last word, they must know who will have to sign a letter that contains a final statement from the province. Chairperson, we would be happy if the provincial speakers, as the leaders of legislatures, could take this upon themselves to make sure that the reports arrive here a day before the sitting of the committee when it is preparing to take its final decision.

Chairperson, it is indeed true that committees are doing very well despite the lack of necessary resources. We have previously requested that committees be assisted by increasing staff. As the Office of the House Chairpersons that plays an oversight role over committees and also follows up on government programmes, we wrote a letter to the Secretary to Parliament and we requested that both the Office of the Secretary to the NCOP and the Office of the Chairperson of the NCOP follow up on that issue and find out how far it is now.

It is also our wish that, when employing the research staff, care should be taken that we are given people who have the necessary knowledge and skills for that particular department. We do not want to end up taking anyone who claims to have the expertise of acquiring the finer details pertaining to that department. We wish again to state that it should not only be said that government has no money. What must happen is that those working in this field should be paid well so we can get staff who can do the work that can fulfil the needs of this House and those of the public.

Chairperson, this year the budget of the committees has dropped by more than 50%. The amount of R200 000 has been allocated to five committees. If we can look at the Select Committee on Safety and Constitutional Affairs, as an example, it is left with an amount of R150 512, but we are still in May. The question is: How is this committee going to deal with the legislation that is currently before it? And in connection with issues that were raised by the people that need to be followed up, will this committee be able to go back to the provinces to see that those things are done?

The Select Committee on Social Services, as of now, is left with R186 676. As a House, we have taken a decision that we must directly play an oversight role on local governments. This committee also reviews the decisions taken by the MECs for local governments to put municipalities under provincial administration if they have not performed well.

It is indeed true that last year the committees could not use all the money that was allocated to them, but we must look for the root cause of this which was that the programme of Parliament was changing frequently. But we, as the National Council of Provinces, have a programme in place that guides us as to which days are specifically put aside for committee work. The committees will get ample time to do their work.

Our programme as the National Council of Provinces, consists of the internal and international relations wing. Looking at the present budget, I doubt very much if committees would be able to play a meaningful role in these programmes, particularly on the international relations side.

I would like to go back to the member’s facilities programme. There is a project of buying laptops and desktop computers and members were told to choose between the two. Most members chose laptops. Members pay for these computers and this means that they own them. I would then suggest, Chairperson, that Parliament should buy desktop computers for Members of Parliament and when the time comes for members to leave, they leave those desktop computers here in Parliament.

Lastly, Chairperson, we request the procurement unit to ensure that the inventory lists are always well kept. I am saying this because of the situation I came across last year, in 2006, where I was told to bring back the laptop whilst I was paying for it. If I did not have receipts as proof of payment, that laptop would have been returned because they said the inventory list did not indicate that I was paying for it.

The other thing I wish to mention here concerns those members who have the authority to fly business class when they are on official duties. Whether these members are performing duties for Parliament or for committees, they must always fly business class.]

I would also like to propose that when committees undertake international visits and if the destination is more than four hours away, let us use the business class.

Isizathu salokho ukuthi, esikhathini esiningi, amalungu abuya esevuvukele izinyawo, angabe esakwazi ukubuya eze emsebenzini. Kungakuhle uma singayibuyekeza inqubomgomo yethu Yezokuhamba Nendawo Yokuhlala. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[The reason is that most of the time the members come back with swollen feet and are not able to come to work as a result. It would be best if we can review our travel and accommodation policy.]

I propose that we also review our travel and accommodation policy, particularly when it comes to accommodation because in some areas you find that the cost of accommodation is higher than what we agreed upon, that is, the limit for accommodation is R950. If rates for accommodation are more than that, members are unable to get appropriate accommodation. Chairperson, I would like us to review that policy.

Lastly, regarding the issue of AA rates paid to members when they submit their claims, I think we need to consider the engine capacity because at the end of the day, that’s why you find that members end up with problems and not having money for survival because they pay for more services than they should.

Bengisika nje kwelijikayo, ngaphansi kohlelo Masijule Ngengxoxo Mzansi. Le nkulumo ngiyisusela ezingxoxweni Zosihlalo Bamakomidi noSosiswebhu bale Ndlu. Ngiyabonga. [That is the least I could say under the theme: Let’s deepen the debate, South Africa. This speech was as a result of the discussions between the Chairpersons of Committees and Whippery of this House. Thank you.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Order, hon members! Hon Ralane, this is a House of Parliament. I will mention you by name. This is a House of Parliament.

I am aware that hon Mildred has spoken about things that are popular with members, but your response to that should not be disruptive. I will take a decision that I am not going to allow any member to leave. Some of you make a noise and waste our time and will be the first ones to leave. By the time the Chairperson comes and closes the debate, the House will be empty because people want to connect. So, will you please save time. Hon Watson, the floor is yours.

Mr A WATSON: Chairperson, hon members, in a speech on the Budget Vote of Parliament and particularly in the context of the NCOP, one must first reflect on the leadership and staff of the institution who not only have to control and account for the expenditure, but also have to ensure that all efforts and actions are in the interests of the electorate and all parties representing them.

I therefore wish to pause for a moment to thank the Secretary to Parliament, the Secretary of the NCOP and all members of staff for their services in this regard. A tribute of this nature would be incomplete without the sincere acknowledgement of the special attributes and outstanding leadership of the captain of the ship, our Chairperson, hon M J Mahlangu, who, together with the rest of the presidium, steers the course of our institution.

In regard to the Budget Vote itself, I could spend the time available to me speaking on the bad financial management of Parliament reflected in the repeated roll-overs of budgeted funds reported year after year, coupled with the continued qualified reports of the Auditor-General, but I will rather reflect on Parliament and the NCOP, in particular, as an institution.

To start off, however, let me preface my remarks by stating that I am proud to be a Member of Parliament and I am extremely proud to be a member of the NCOP representing the voters that supported the DA in Mpumalanga.

It saddens me to read in the comments and analysis section of a national newspaper that the NCOP is referred to as the National Council of Pointlessness. It really saddens me to read comments such as: The NCOP has long since drifted into irrelevance. It further saddens me to hear that very few people take our work seriously, that even fewer people know of our existence and that even a professor of media studies knows very little about the NCOP.

I think the time has come to direct our funds and efforts towards enhancing the image of the NCOP and to rethink our mission and methodology. We have a brand-new set of beautiful symbols and the new emblem depicting the link between Parliament and the people, and more particularly, the link between the NCOP with the provinces. But, regrettably, we have a tarnished image out there.

What can we do to improve the image of the institution? We can, for a start, spend the unspent funds, be more visible and creative. When the hon Chairperson and I were involved in a short television programme a few weeks ago, a comment was made about the poor quality of the visual transmissions and the sound quality from the NCOP which makes it difficult to broadcast what we are doing. Any reporter or visitor to our Chamber must surely share the embarrassment of members when the simple task of connecting a member’s microphone results in a sort of musical chairs around the Chamber while attempting to follow proceedings through poor quality or sometimes nonexistent interpretation services. We should do something pertinent and urgently about the shortcomings. If the systems in use are defunct then we must replace them and if the technicians managing the equipment are incompetent, we must also get rid of them. Better planning and better management is what is called for now.

What, may I ask, are we doing to make the NCOP more user-friendly for reporters and journalists, and have we ever embarked on a survey of their views? Why are the NCOP proceedings not reported on as well as those of the National Assembly? I think we must find out. In business you would be absolutely foolish to stock only brown polish if all your customers wear black shoes. Our business is to represent the views of the electorate and to convey our actions to them. If we fail to do that properly, we are failing in our mission, and our business will also surely fail.

So let us embark on some market research. Let us make use of professionals in that field and in the field of public relations, because if we want to be big, we must start to think big. I personally think that our members spend far too much time in committees, duplicating the work of the National Assembly. I think we should be out there in the provinces with our people, interacting with them and hearing their views.

Let us get one thing straight here: I am not pleading for more of Taking Parliament to the People. Independent observers quite rightly describe those events as no more than extended ANC rallies where criticism is shouted down and only the voice of the ANC is heard. [Interjections.] There you are, doing it again. There you are. You have just proved my point!

The same commentator I quoted earlier quite rightly makes the point and I quote:

Those expensive and pointless trips to the provinces are the compelling metaphor for the Council itself. If delegates were directly accountable to the people, there would be no need to engage in the elaborate theatre of a mobile legislature.

Lastly, I have said it before and I will say it again, the NCOP represents the provinces through their parties in proportion to the votes cast for the parties. Section 61 of the Constitution is very clear on that. If we are thus constituted, and not only as representatives of the ANC alone, why are the members of the other parties in this House – who constitute a full third of the permanent delegates – reduced to mere spectators? We need to change our act if we are to survive, and we need to involve all our members. So let us go for it, and get it right. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr M A MZIZI: Sihlalo kanye noSihlalo beNdlu, bozakwethu, kinina nonke, unwele olude! [Chairperson, House Chairpersons and colleagues, to all of you, long life!]

As the supreme legislative authority in South Africa, Parliament has the ability to play a comprehensive role in society. Not only do the laws we make in the Parliament affect every citizen, but these laws strengthen the system of the rule of law and, through public participation, create the opportunity for every citizen to be a part of the law-making process. In this way, Parliament strengthens public confidence in democracy. It underpins institution-building, economic development and the progress of society in general and in specific terms.

However, Parliament has also another very important role and that is oversight of the executive and how Ministers and the departments spend taxpayers’ money. Over the years, oversight has improved but we, in this Council, should critically examine whether we are exercising oversight rigorously enough.

As members know, the provinces are the implementing agencies in critical fields such as education and health. The national government establishes policies in these fields but provincial departments do the actual work of spending the money. In many instances these provincial departments experience numerous problems when they need to actually deliver the services that the public deserves.

It is our role as provincial representatives at the national level to exercise rigorous oversight of provincial departments that are not delivering. While some improvement in this regard has recently been made, much more could be done by the Council to ensure that our people receive the services they so desperately need.

The role of Parliament and Members of Parliament has in recent years expanded greatly. As such, much greater demands have been placed on the parliamentary system and individual members. In particular, the need to provide members with adequate facilities and support has never been greater.

The IFP therefore welcomes the further improvement made in this year’s budget to provide for more research and technical support. We need more technical expertise to analyse budgets, conduct oversight and critically examine spending trends by provincial departments throughout the year and improve draft legislation. Hopefully, the increased capacity will assist us in doing so.

The IFP also welcomes the increased allocation to political party support and continuous allowances as these would enable us to meet and fulfil the mandate given to us by the electorate to effectively represent them in Parliament. The IFP supports Parliament’s budget.

Yilokho-ke ebesithanda ukukusho ukuthi, empeleni noma singahluka ngemibono ekuthini uma sithatha iPhalamende siliyisa kubantu omunye ukubuka kanjani lokho, kodwa ngithanda ukuthi sizwisise kahle. Yithuba eliyimvela kancane uma sithatha iPhalamende siliyisa kubantu ukuze abantu bakwazi ukukhuluma namalungu.

Abantu bezwa nje ngendaba ukuthi sikhona ePhalamende, abazi ukuthi kwenzekani. Yilo Mkhandlu Kazwelonke Wezifundazwe kuphela okuyiwo omele izifundazwe oya kubantu, ukhulume nabantu. Uma singasayi-ke kubantu, ngabe simele muphi uMkhandlu? Kuyilungelo labo ngoba abakwazi ukuza lapha kodwa yithi okufanele siye kubo. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[That is what we wanted to say; that, in fact, even if we differ in opinion as to how one understands the taking of Parliament to the people, I want us all to understand the following: The taking of Parliament to the people is a rare opportunity and thus the people get an opportunity to speak to the members.

People know that we are in Parliament but they do not know what is happening within Parliament itself. It is only the NCOP that represents the provinces that goes to the people and speaks to them. If we do not go to the people, which council would we be representing then? It is the people’s right, because they cannot come here, that we must go to them.]

If the mountain cannot come to Mohammed, Mohammed must go to the mountain. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Mr T S Setona): Thank you, hon Mzizi. Hon members, I think we are doing well in terms of time.

I just want to make a comment that from where I am sitting, the quality of our interpretation is not really up to scratch. I am not an isiZulu- speaking person, but I could follow what the hon Oliphant was saying. What was coming across from the English interpretation would not make sense even to an English-speaking person. So, I think this is one other area that we need to pay attention to.

Mnu Z C STALI (Western Cape): Sihlalo, ndibulela ukuba ndifumane eli thuba lokuba ndize kumela iphondo kule ngxoxo. Mhlalingaphambili, okuninzi ebendiza kukutsho sele kuchatshazelwe. Ndiyaqonda ukuba umsebenzi bawenze walula. Okuseleyo kukuba ndigxininise kakhulu kwimiceli-mngeni yeli phondo lethu. Ndiyaqonda ukuba ezi zinto ndiza kuthetha ngazo ziyawachaphazela namanye amaphondo.

USihlalo uthethe kakuhle apha wathi ninompoposho othi: “Masijule ngengxoxo, Mzansi.” Xa sithetha ngaloo mba kubalulekile ukuba siqwalasele ukuba zeziphi na izinto ezenza ukuba singaMalungu ePalamente sibe kanti asinakho ukubonelela ngeenkonzo ezinokwamkeleka eluntwini. Kubalulekile ukuba siqwalasele nzulu ukuba ngaba abantu ngokwenene bayabuva na ubukho bePalamente phakathi kwabo. Kubalulekile kananjalo ukuba siqwalasele ukuba ngaba iinkqubo esinazo ziyawenza ngokwenene na umahluko ebantwini.

Kubalulekile ukuba siqwalasele ukuba ngaba ikhona na intsebenziswano phakathi kweBhunga leSizwe lamaPhondo. Kwakhona kufuneka siq walasele ukuba ngaba izinto esizenzayo singala manqwanqwa mabini azidali yantlukwano na phaya phakathi koluntu. Kukwabalulekile kananjalo ukuba siqwalasele ukuba ngaba abantu bayithatha ngokwaneleyo na inxaxheba kwiinkqubo zikarhulumente. Sileli phondo sinemiceli-mngeni emininzi.

Okokuqala, kucacile nakuthatha ukuba mkhulu umahluko phakathi kweNtshona Koloni namanye amaphondo. USihlalo uyichaphazele into yokuba uyaqwalaselwa umba wokwangezwa kwabameli kumaphondo. Yingxaki enkulu le eNtshona Koloni. Kucacile ukuba nokuba singaze senze njani na ngokwenani labavoti bamaqela ezopolitiko apha eNtshona Koloni, loo mbutho unokuze uphumelele awunakuze uphumelele ngaphezu kweevoti ezingama-53 ekhulwini. Loo nto iya kwenza ukuba loo mbutho uphetheyo ubetheke kakhulu. Le meko ayifani neyaseMntla Koloni neyamanye amaphondo ngoba kuwo xa imibutho yezopolitiko iphumelela, iphumelela ngesininzi.

Apha eNtshona Koloni ukuba umbutho uthe waphatha, inxalenye yamalungu yawo iba kwiKhabhinethi, asale embalwa ke ngoku amalungu anokusasazwa ezikomitini. Umzekelo, thina sineekomiti eziphaya eshumini. Loo nto ithetha ukuba ilungu ngalinye lizibona limele umbutho walo kwiikomiti ezisukela kwisixhenxe ukuya kwisibhozo. Loo nto yenza ukuba umsebenzi wokuphonononga umsebenzi wamalungu eKhabhinethi ungenzeki ngokupheleleyo. Uya kufumanisa ukuba senza ufanakalo xa sisithi sisa iinkonzo ebantwini. Ungumntu awungekhe ukwazi ukuzahlula ze ube nefuthe elivakalayo kuzo zonke ezi komiti zisixhenxe.

Apha sisebenzisa nkqu noSekela-Somlomo. Uzibona sele eququzelela iikomiti eziphaya kwisixhenxe. Loo nto yingxaki mhlawumbi ongekhe uyibone kwamanye amaphondo.

Enye yeengxaki endiqondayo ukuba isithwaxa kakhulu sileli phondo kukuthi amaxesha amaninzi singaboni ngasonye xa sixoxa lo mcimbi wokuphonononga umsebenzi wamalungu eKhabhinethi. Kuyafuneka ukuba khe kube kho ingxoxo ebanjwayo ukuze kucaciswe ukuba ngaba xa sithetha ngokuphonononga umsebenzi wamalungu eKhabhinethi sixhomekeke kakhulu kwimibutho ephikisayo na okanye nathi singurhulumente okanye aMalungu ePalamente sinoxanduva lokwenza olu phononongo.

Ezo zizinto endinqwenela ukuba ziqwalaseleke ngakumbi xa sidibene singala macandelo mabini karhulumente. Kufuneka siqinisekise ukuba izinto esizithethayo ziyafika ezindlebeni zabantu kwaye ziyawenza umahluko. Ndiyabulela. (Translation of isiXhosa speech follows.)

[Mr Z C STALI (Western Cape): Chairperson, let me thank you for the opportunity to represent my province in this debate. Chairperson, most of what I was going to say has already been highlighted. Members have made my job much easier. What is left now is to emphasise more the challenges faced by our province. I know that the things that I am going to talk about also affect other provinces.

The Chairperson spoke very well and mentioned our theme: “Let’s deepen the debate, South Africa.” When we talk about this, it is important that we look at the things that caused us as Members of Parliament to be unable to provide services which are necessary for people. It is important to observe carefully whether the people really do feel Parliament’s presence in their midst. It is equally important to give careful consideration to whether the programmes that we have are really making a difference in people’s lives.

It is also important to observe if there is co-operation within the NCOP. Furthermore, we need to look at whether the things that we do as the two spheres of government do not create divisions within communities and whether people participate enough in the programmes spearheaded by government. The province faces many challenges.

Firstly, it is clear to everybody that there is a great difference between the Western Cape and other provinces. The Chairperson mentioned the fact that the issue of adding representatives to the provinces is being considered. This poses a serious problem in the Western Cape. It is clear that no matter what we do, according to the number of voters of the political parties here in the Western Cape, a party that would win, will not win more than 53% votes. That would negatively impact on the party that wins. This is unlike in the Northern Cape and other provinces because when they win, they win with the majority of votes.

When a party gets into power in the Western Cape, some of its members get appointed as cabinet members and that decreases the number of members who can be selected to serve on committees. For example, we have 10 committees. That means each member will serve his/her party on seven to eight committees at a time. That causes the task of monitoring work done by members of the Cabinet to be less effective. One would find that we are not doing justice when we bring services to the people. You cannot divide yourself as a person and hope that you could have an influence on all seven committees. Even the Deputy Speaker receives a fair share of duties and responsibilities. He is even expected to co-ordinate the seven committees sometimes. This is a problem that you might not find in other provinces.

One of the other serious challenges that we experience in this province is that, we always disagree with each other regarding monitoring of members of the Cabinet. We need to debate this matter in order to clarify whether monitoring is the responsibility of opposition parties, government or Members of Parliament.

These are the things that I would like us to consider, especially as the two spheres of government. We must ensure that things that we do also reach the people and that they make a difference. I thank you.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Hon Chairperson and Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP, let me start by saying that, as we celebrate the International Children’s Day, I would like to say from this podium that we need to condemn the barbaric behaviour of these mamparas who continue to dump newly- born babies in pit toilets, in dustbins and in other areas because that is not in solidarity with humanity. It is actually against the gift God gave us - to give birth. We should condemn that with the contempt it deserves.

I apologise that owing to having the flu, my voice is not of TV quality, but I have to proceed with this debate. As we debate today in the NCOP, we should understand that we want to pass a budget which will ensure that we fulfil and implement the vision of this Parliament to be a people’s Parliament which is responsive to the needs of the people. We can’t be responsive to the needs of the people when we sit in our air-conditioned boardrooms. We need to take this Parliament to the people. We need to understand that democracy does not come cheap, as much as it is less costly than apartheid was. We need to understand that as much as we are not known in certain areas of this country, the people of the Eastern Cape, at Mthatha, know us because …

… i-NCOP yafika laphaya. Abantu base Kgalagadi bayasazi ngoba sasikhona laphaya. Abantu baseParys, eFreyisitata, bayasazi … [… the NCOP went there. The people from Kgalagadi know us because we were there. The people from Parys in the Free State know us …]

… because we took Parliament to the people. Of course, that will not come at a very cheap price. If one can make quotations regarding how much one can spend to take all these thousands of people and bring them to Cape Town, I think it can be 10 times more or even 20 times the budget one uses to take a few members to the thousands of people out there.

But of course we know that some people who are scared to address 5 000 people in one instance feel it is better to remain in a small committee and interact with a group of few people.

In 1998 President Thabo Mbeki put forward a fundamental question that our people will use to judge the performance of the NCOP in the functioning of our democracy and within government’s agenda to push back the frontiers of poverty. He stated that our people will ask: What have you, as the NCOP – not as a party but as the NCOP - done to provide a better life for me and my children? I hope the answer will not be that I sat in Parliament saving the taxpayer’s money instead of going to intervene where the taxpayers are experiencing problems.

We want to say we are being supported by what Mr Mangati Magubude from Sebokeng in Sedibeng District Municipality said when we visited that area as the NCOP, and I quote:

In my life I had never thought that parliamentarians will visit my community. It was a wonderful experience to engage with my elected representatives. I remain convinced that my issues will be addressed.

Of course people who have benefited for so long in this country and who have been previously advantaged will not say what Mr Magubude said.

We want to highlight a few indications of what the NCOP has done in terms of Taking Parliament to the People. When we were in KwaZulu-Natal, there were schools which were running short of classrooms. There were schools which had had their roofs blown off because of the hailstorms. When we came back those classrooms at Macikeni Primary School had been renovated. A nearby secondary school had a new block which had electricity. The principal of that school said to us, as a joint delegation with the KwaZulu- Natal provincial legislature:

I wish that the NCOP can come here every quarter of the year. I think we would be having a laboratory centre if that was done.

In Limpopo, Tzaneen, there was an informal settlement which did not have water. After our intervention there, they wrote a letter thanking us because they now have a supply of water, which is a basic resource for life. But some other people decide to be blind and say that the NCOP is not doing anything.

More so, we have been given confidence by what the President of the country and also of the ANC, said when he addressed us during the 10th anniversary. He said that we should not only double our efforts but we should work towards outdoing the good work that we are doing. So those who feel that the NCOP is not serving their agenda will, of course, define it as an irrelevant House. We are doing this because we conform to the vision of the Freedom Charter, which says the people should participate in the administration of their country.

We also need to highlight some of the good work that has been done by some of our committees, more especially in terms of section 139 interventions done by the select committee on local government. We have seen those municipalities who were collapsing, coming back to be stabilised and being the instrument that should serve towards service delivery for their people.

However, other people decide to be blind and do not see what the NCOP is doing. We are made confident by what some of our blind people who participate in our Taking Parliament to the People say. They say they are happy that democracy is working for them.

As we pass this budget, I must also thank all those parties who contribute constructively to the work and functioning of this House, particularly our Whips and chairpersons of committees and all the other members who are so stretched in their work. It is unfortunate that as we pass this budget, we can’t determine their salaries from this podium.

But I want to say that there are other things which we can do in this Parliament and administration to ensure that where the members have done work, they must get the S and Ts for working outside Parliament. Their claims must be speedily paid up if they have to be paid. We need to have a situation where budgets for all the offices, including the offices of the Chief Whip and House Chairpersons, are adequately funded because we will demoralise people if we overload them with work and do not fund them properly.

As we are moving towards closure, may I say that we saw the article that Mr Watson spoke about. We decided not to let that article divert us from our agenda of ensuring that in terms of our manifesto, we proceed as this Parliament to do oversight over the executive in order to ensure that jobs are being created – as you will also agree that economic growth is expanding in the country and that we have halved poverty.

That is why we will encourage ourselves jointly that as we move forward, we should unite and ensure that under the leadership of the presidium in this NCOP, we really take the NCOP to greater heights. Let’s not join those people who are our detractors, and who also work within the NCOP, to detract us from the agenda which we have. Thank you. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Chairperson, let me thank all the hon members who participated in this debate. I am very proud of each and every one of you, even if you doubt yourselves, because I think every time the standard of debate in this House goes from strength to strength. [Applause.] Those who don’t see, leave them like that, it’s fine. Nobody will praise you all the time. At times you have to pat your own back in order to be self-motivated and to move. I think all of you are doing a very good job.

Let me respond to some of the issues. Regarding what the Deputy Chairperson said concerning more focus on oversight, I want to say I took the trouble to speak to all the Whips and Chairs of committees last week. I discussed with them the question of saying, in my view: Is it not better for us in our oversight not to just look at the programmes of government and how they deliver services etc, because one of our core functions here in Parliament is to pass the laws? You heard me saying that.

Is it not better that we go back to pick up a few pieces of legislation now that we are not passing so many laws in Parliament? Each committee should then say to itself, “Let’s look at this piece of legislation - what impact has it had on the lives of the people on the ground? Is it not a good thing in that way? Let’s look at a particular law; is it being implemented on the ground? Is it doing what we have said it must do on the ground or is it not doing that?”

I want to see you people coming back to Parliament and saying, “We think this piece of legislation is not helping the people on the ground therefore let’s amend it in this and that way so that it can benefit the people on the ground. We should not just leave it like that.” I think that is what we should do, because we passed laws and we have to do exactly that.

The House Chairperson, Ms Oliphant, raised quite a number of issues. I agree with what she said concerning the capacity of committees. When we speak about committees, we forget to speak about members themselves because members have their individual lives beside their lives in a committee. I think we should put that together. We are 13 years down the line and I think we should begin to look at that very seriously. I have had a discussion with the Speaker in the other House and we are engaging the administration on this issue.

My view on the whole issue regarding the capacity of committees and individual members is that Parliament has been doing this on a piecemeal basis. You cannot address it properly if you do that. My personal view, and I will continue to put it before other people, is that you need to face this capacity issue in the MTEF period. In other words, you take the audit of all the needs of Members of Parliament and the committees in Parliament and say, “In order for us to capacitate the members and the committees, this is the number of researchers we need, this is the space that we need, these are the typing secretaries we need and they must be paid so much.”

Once you have done the audit, you cost it. The audit will then tell you how much you need in order to be able to do that. You then break those aspects into an MTEF period and say, “In four years’ time, this is the amount of money we need to capacitate these people.” After that, you are done. All that you have to do is to replace those who resign and replace the equipment that gets broken, etc. But we are currently doing these things on a piecemeal basis and we will never be in a position to then make sure that this capacity is addressed to its fullest.

In terms of policy, House Chairperson, may I request you, as one of my right-hands and commander in my office, to assist me to put on paper the issues you raised so that you and I can then make sure that where that policy hinders the work of members, it is addressed and changed properly. [Applause.]

I would like to mention something on just one other issue you raised: I have been of the view that members are utilising the facility of travelling in business class if they have been in Parliament for more than 10 years, even when doing committee work. If that is not done, let’s look at it because that’s what the policy says. I have instructed that that should be done, because I have checked the policy again.

Mr Watson, most of the roll-overs are not coming from our work as members. If you check the expenditure of Parliament very carefully, you will find that most of the roll-overs come from personnel regarding people who are actually not employed to come and do the work in Parliament. That’s where most of the gap is.

Both the Speaker and I have raised this issue with the administration. We have cancelled some of the posts because what happens is that if you create a post, you budget for it. But if you don’t fill it, what happens? The money stays there; it’s not used. You don’t pay anybody and then you roll it over to the following year because you are not employing people into positions. In the meantime, 10 other people would have resigned from Parliament while those posts have been created and you have budgeted for them. The money would be there and that would be a big roll-over again. We need to address that; it’s not correct. I really agree with you on that one. We have to make sure that those people are employed because that’s a strength we need in Parliament regarding those people who should be employed and come to assist Parliament.

Let me clarify the issue of the Auditor-General. In 2004, the current presiding officers inherited eight qualifications from the Auditor-General, that’s in the 2004-05 report of the Auditor-General. In 2005-06, we rectified all of those qualifications and we had only one qualification. In 2006-07 we had one qualification. Isn’t that good? It is better and good too. It’s not just better – better is better than good! [Laughter.]

All that I am saying is that I hear people from time to time still querying Parliament on the qualifications which have been resolved. There are two sets of things that are considered when the Auditor-General audits the books. The Auditor-General then says, “There are also matters of emphasis.” Tutu Ralane is sitting over there and he will tell you what that is. “Matters of emphasis” are things that may tend to come back. The Auditor- General puts emphasis on those things and they keep checking on those things because they may come back.

Regarding the qualification we had, Deputy Secretary, if I am right, I think it was the question of the asset register, which you have attended to. That was what was problematic. A member of the Select Committee on Finance would agree with me. And so, we are dealing with those things and I don’t think that’s a problem. It’s unnecessary for people to make noise about that.

Regarding the article that Mr Watson talked about and which the Chief Whip has spoken to, it is nice to live in a democratic country because you have freedom of speech and you can say anything that you want to say, whether it is wrong or right. The article you talked about is an opinion piece. Everybody has the right to an opinion. I can write my opinion in any newspaper.

When I saw that article, you know what I said to myself? I said: A dog never barks at a stationary car; it will always bark at a moving car. That shows me that the NCOP has actually begun to do something because they now begin to talk about us. And it is good that they begin to talk about us because we can then say whether the opinion is right or wrong and then take the necessary steps. I did not worry too much about the article.

Regarding the sound and vision thing, you are quite correct – they have raised that with me. They have actually written a letter to me. They have said in most instances the sound is very bad and that they cannot even cover us. The secretary to the NCOP has now promised me, and the Secretary to Parliament, that they will attend to it. By the way, that applies to both Houses. It’s not just the NCOP, it also applies to the NA as well.

Now I don’t want to talk too much about Taking Parliament to the People, but let me just make a few comments. I don’t want to be involved in a political arena as a presiding officer. If I had the right I would do that, but you know that I don’t have that right. Let me give you my view: It’s a programme that you people have said we must take over and you agreed about that in this House. Now the programme does not work well somewhere. Let’s review it and see what it is that is not working well. Let’s panelbeat that portion that is not working well and get it to work properly.

When you run a programme, you test it and find out how it works. You find your mistakes and you say, “Somewhere something is not working well.” One member came to me, Dr Van Heerden, and I want to thank him for that. He said, “Mr Mahlangu, next time, once we have finished visiting all the provinces, how will it be if when we take Parliament to the people, we divide ourselves according to the number of regions in that province? If there are three regions, we divide the members into three groups and sit in different regions.

On the last day when the President or the Deputy President addresses us, we converge in one region and report through our speeches or our inputs everything we would have collected from the four or three regions because we shall have then covered the entire province.” I thought it was a good idea. It is something that we can look at, but we need to do some sort of work.

However, again people have not told us why Taking Parliament to the People is so bad. Nobody has told us why. All that I have heard being said is that it’s too expensive. That’s all that I have heard. Regarding the very taxpayer’s money, I become thrilled when I go there and find these people so happy. They have never said we are wasting their money by going there. They have never said that.

I wish I could just show you the correspondence that lands on my table concerning the excitement from the communities; it’s marvellous! It makes my heart actually bleed. That is how people feel when you go to them on the ground and talk to them. It is a cleansing programme. It heals them quickly because they then see the hope that there is something that will be done because we are there.

However, hon Watson, let me emphasise that the event is not for the ANC. Some people might reason that way, but the event was a decision of this House. It was a decision about Taking Parliament to the People and people are not divided into sectors or political parties. Everybody is allowed to come there, all, across the board; all political party affiliations.

Let me tell you what made me so happy when I went to Free State, and I think I have been talking to some of you about this. It was the first province in which I ever saw white people attending this programme in their numbers. It was the first time. I have never seen it in other provinces. I asked myself: Why? When I gave the report to the President, he said to me that the Free State is always like that. That’s what we want because we don’t want to feel that this programme excludes other people. Everybody should be there to come and talk to us. We are representatives of everybody in the country irrespective of race and colour.

I am sure that there must have been one or two members who joined me when I addressed the old-age pensioners in the Free State. Who was with me there? None of you? [Interjections.] The Deputy Chairperson was there. Can you imagine the number of white old-age pensioners who were there? Almost half of the black people were there. When I finished addressing them, they were crying and hugged me like a baby saying, “Mr Mahlangu, thank you very much.”

I got a letter from one of them thanking the President of this country for the wonderful work that he is doing and I passed it on to the President. If you want me to table it in the NCOP, I will do that. [Applause.]

The African Peer Review Mechanism quotes us and this programme as the best programme they have ever seen in the entire world. That is the report of the APRM; go through that report. [Applause.] They have never seen things like this that actually strengthen and deepen democracy on the ground and strengthen public participation.

A lot of people are copying it from us. I was with my colleagues from Namibia during the summit. They have copied it from us and they have it now in Namibia because they think it is the best possible way of interacting with people, particularly those people who are in far-flung rural areas and who cannot reach us in Parliament.

People are dying to see your faces, all of you, not M J Mahlangu when he does his constituency work. They want to see Mr Watson, they want to see hon Sulliman, they want to see the chairperson, they want to see everybody talking to them.

Thank you, hon Mzizi, for your wonderful comments that have strengthened us. Is hon Stali still here? Is he gone? I wanted to share with him how we have clustered our committees. Perhaps they could use that in their province.

Chief Whip, I have heard what you have said about the capacity, not just regarding the committees but in your offices as well, which is not yet budgeted for. We took the decision long ago to support you as the Chief Whip of the institution. We are addressing that matter with the Secretary to Parliament.

In conclusion, once more, thanks to all of you. I wish to thank the Secretary to Parliament, the Deputy Secretary, the chief operations officer and all your staff members in Parliament. You are trying your level best to get this Parliament to achieve its goals. Thank you to the secretary to the NCOP, Adv Matyolo, and her staff for assisting us to carry out our function. If she were not here, we would not have been able to achieve all the things we have achieved.

Thanks to the House Chairpersons and the Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP who are assisting me to do this wonderful job which I am doing – it is because you are assisting me to handle and to drive this ship in the right direction. I want to thank you very much for supporting this budget. Thanks to all of you.

Debate concluded.

The Council adjourned at 11:04 ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Draft Bills submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159

(1) Constitution Thirteenth Amendment Bill, 2007, submitted by the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development. Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development and the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs.

National Council of Provinces

1. Referral to Committees of papers tabled

(1) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs:

    (a)      Memorandum of Understanding between the Government of the
         Republic of South Africa and the Government of Saint Lucia on
         the Contribution of the South African Police Service to the
         International Police Component for the ICC Cricket World Cup
         West Indies 2007, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the
         Constitution, 1996.

    (b)      Memorandum of Understanding between the Government of the
         Republic of South Africa and the Government of Barbados on the
         Contribution of the South African Police Service to the
         International Police Component for the ICC Cricket World Cup
         West Indies 2007, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the
         Constitution, 1996.


    (c)      Memorandum of Understanding between the Government of the
         Republic of South Africa and the Government of Grenada on the
         Contribution of the South African Police Service to the
         International Police Component for the ICC Cricket World Cup
         West Indies 2007, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the
         Constitution, 1996.