WEDNESDAY, 20 JUNE 2007 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

                                ____

The Council met at 14:01.

House Chairperson Mr T S Setona took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

                          NOTICE OF MOTION

Mr N J MACK: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of this House, I shall move:

That the Council –

(1) requests the Departments of Environmental Affairs and Tourism, Provincial and Local Government and Land Affairs to investigate the City of Cape Town’s building of a public road within the Table Mountain National Park; and

(2) notes that – (a) the city has proceeded to clear land of endangered and scarce species of our finest Cape Floral Heritage, like fynbos and indigenous trees, without obtaining prior permission from the parks authority to do so;

     (b)      this hubristic attitude of the city under its new regime
           is clearly an indication that it thinks it can do as it
           pleases;


     (c)      the city started the work outside its area of jurisdiction
           in a world heritage site and is now also refusing to
           contribute money to the said national park, with which it has
           a partnership agreement; and


     (d)      through all this Cape Town Mayor Helen Zille has not
           distanced herself or her party from these actions.

            RESCINDING OF DRAFT RESOLUTION OF MR R J TAU

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr A WATSON: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council —

(1) notes Rule 75(1), which states that “a matter proposed for discussion in the Council may not in substance be the same as a matter that has been discussed in the Council during the preceeding six months”;

(2) further notes the powers vested in the Council for the “amending or rescinding” of “any resolution on the previous draft resolution” conferred on the Council in terms of Rule 75(2)(b);

  3) therefore resolves to rescind the draft resolution proposed by the
     hon R J Tau on Thursday, 14 June 2007, as recorded on the Order
     Paper of 19 June 2007, as it was clearly and deliberately of the
     same substance as his very own address during the youth debate held
     on 13 June 2007; and


  4) determines that this proposed resolution be dealt with and ruled on
     as a motion without notice in terms of Rule 77(a).

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Is there any objection to the motion? [Interjections.] The motion is objected to, and it will therefore become a notice of motion.

ASHLEIGH SIMON BECOMES THE YOUNGEST WINNER OF A LADIES EUROPEAN TOUR EVENT

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr M A MZIZI: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council —

(1) notes with pride that at 18 years of age, South African golfing sensation Ashleigh Simon has become the youngest professional winner of a Ladies European Tour event;

  2) further notes that this inspirational teenager accomplished this
     feat upon winning the Catalonia Ladies Masters in Spain over the
     past weekend;

(3) congratulates Ms Simon on her remarkable victory; and

(4) realises that she is an inspiration to many South Africans, especially the youth.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

           CANCELLATION OF NATIONAL YOUTH DAY CELEBRATIONS
                    BY CITY OF CAPE TOWN’S MAYOR

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr N J MACK: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council notes that —

(1) National Youth Day celebrations were cancelled by the City of Cape Town’s Mayor, Helen Zille;

(2) while all the youth across South Africa celebrated Youth Month and Youth Day, the Mother City distanced itself from the cause and spirit of Youth Day;

(3) all the provinces took part in the process to have workshops and youth parliaments to discuss topical youth issues, such as violence in schools, economic opportunities, drug trafficking and skills development, and the National Youth Parliament is under way in the very same building in which we are sitting, and yet the needs and aspirations of our youth in Cape Town do not matter to its mayor, who says it is a waste of money and donated the allocation for Youth Day celebrations to her favourite charities;

(4) this is tantamount to cancelling Christmas or, even worse, taking sweets from little children; and

(5) children have a right to be heard and to share in celebrations in a way they can relate to, and cancelling Youth Day is a very bad signal to our future leaders, who have to look after our interests when we are old and frail.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Is there any objection? [Interjections.] Order, hon members! In the light of the objection, the motion may not be proceeded with. It will therefore become a notice of motion.

                 POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY MR R J TAU

                              (Ruling)

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Hon members, before I come to the first Order of the Day, I did make a reservation in terms of making a ruling yesterday and I want to make the ruling now, before we proceed.

Hon members will remember that the hon Tau rose on a point of order in the course of our deliberations yesterday. The hon member asked whether it was correct for hon Watson to refer to what had been said in the House previously and whether he would also be given the opportunity to respond to the allegations. What hon Watson did was to clarify what he thought had been misunderstood when he stood up to apologise for apartheid.

In terms of Rule 50(1)(a) of the Council, a member may be allowed to explain a previous speech, but only to the extent that the speech has been misquoted or misunderstood. That is the Rule of the National Council of Provinces. I therefore rule that, what the hon member did was to explain what he thought had been misquoted or misunderstood. Therefore, that was in order. That is my ruling. [Applause.]

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

                           (Policy debate)

Vote No 5 – Provincial and Local Government:

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Hon Minister and hon Deputy Minister, you are welcome in this august House for the debate on the important Budget Vote speech. I welcome and allow you to take the podium and proceed with your speeches.

The MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, hon, MECs, delegates and hon members, exactly two weeks ago to the day, we tabled the Budget Vote of the Department of Provincial and Local Government in the National Assembly. We opened the policy debate with a speech, which focused on the following: a synoptic overview of the human capacity deployment programme and the impact this has had on the performance of local government and ultimately on the lives of our people; the status of integrated development plans for the financial years 2004–05 and 2005-06 as well as of the generation of municipal IDPs, which will guide our work in the forthcoming financial year; and a snapshot update on the nodal economic programme.

On the occasion of the policy debate in the National Assembly, we emphasised the crucial importance of drawing the correct lessons from the outcomes of our earlier endeavours. We further postulated that, and I quote:

Experience over the past 13 years of democratic government has produced a logical case for a local government policy review and for the consideration of steps to establish a coherent policy framework for provincial government.

At the time of our debate in the National Assembly, 29 organisations had taken part in the hands-on support programme. We are most grateful for the generosity and efforts of these organisations. The department has advised me that many more organisations have indicated their readiness to join in. This deserves our expression of appreciation in anticipation.

Thanks to this intervention, appreciable progress has been recorded with respect to a substantial removal of service delivery backlogs and the realisation of improvement with respect to municipal financial viability and management as well as the provision of technical capacity to support infrastructure development.

In order to successfully take advantage of opportunities offered by this hands-on support programme, two elements have to be in place. Local government must accelerate efforts at getting its own house in order and we have to be more precise as to how local government is to be imbricated into the total synergy of our multisphered system of government.

Already in the 46 districts, all the intergovernmental structures of the district municipalities which are visualised in the Intergovernmental Relations Framework Act of 2005, are in place. The introduction of these structures has the effect of reshaping institutional dynamics towards more effective governance and developmental ends.

Thus, we have seen that a combination of the mobilisation of resources from outside government as well as better alignment of governmental resources through more integrated intersphere planning, budgeting and execution, have produced a new type of the opportunity challenge nexus.

The challenge we now face is one of finding ways through which to tilt the outcomes of our recent endeavours in favour of the opportunity side. The main thrust of our efforts to date has been directed towards helping local government acquire the requisite institutional capacities to discharge its constitutional obligations to the people.

However, this must be seen as but one element of the government-wide effort to strengthen our institutional capacity across all the three spheres of government. We take this opportunity, again, to report to Parliament and we say that thanks to the integrated development plans engagement process, we now have a better idea as to the national and provincial support actions which are needed to help enhance the quality of municipal IDPs.

More importantly, these IDPs are in practice fast becoming a forceful call to arms through which local, provincial and national spheres of government are aggressively promoting the goals of nation-building, social cohesion and economic rejuvenation from below. The Department of Provincial and Local Government has now initiated an IDP national assessment process and this has improved the prospects for the profound enhancement of the quality of our work across all the three spheres of government.

This process must also be seen as an integral part of our institutionalised mechanism for monitoring the implementation of our government-wide Five- Year Local Government Strategic Agenda. In this regard, it is our pleasure to report that provinces have made impressive progress toward establishing provincial monitoring and evaluation units in the offices of the Premiers and the provincial departments of local government.

In the National Assembly we also spoke about the rural development and urban renewal nodes which, as we all know, are home to many of our country’s poorest people and therefore sites of formidable development challenges. We spoke of the Maruleng and Bushbuckridge nodes, which are the current pilot sites for our programme of building capacity for economic development and poverty reduction in the nodes.

We reported that in its first year of execution the pilot facilitated R4 million in direct business development support and that it saved investment in agriculture, agriprocessing and tourism worth R41 million. Furthermore, it created 766 job opportunities, it created 18 SMME linkages to commercial markets, and it conducted four community public-private sector partnerships.

We again call on all development stakeholders, ranging from the SA Local Government Association, national and provincial governments, state-owned enterprises and private sector organisations, to the institution of traditional leadership to fully internalise the demonstration effect of these successes and to translate them into the universal experience of other areas, which were similarly historically neglected.

The advent of democracy also saw government introducing a process of state spatial restructuring. The erstwhile 10 Bantustans, four provincial administrations and more that 1 200 municipal entities were rescaled into new political economic spaces. The new configuration seeks to move the country away from the institutionalised regressive politics of ethnic balkanisation and economic marginalisation which were embedded in apartheid spatial planning.

During the process leading to the enactment of the Constitution Twelfth Amendment Act of 2005 and the Cross-boundary Municipalities Laws Repeal and Related Matters Act of 2005, we undertook to pay special attention to former cross-boundary municipalities. This would entail the formalisation of protocols to govern a smooth transition and ensure a practical and effective response to circumstances that may impact negatively on governance and service delivery at the municipal level.

In this regard, we wish to report that the local government equitable share has been realigned to the new provincial boundaries and the allocations adjusted for the 2007-08 Medium-Term Expenditure Framework. At the commencement of the new fiscal year, all provinces would be receiving these allocations and this will enable them to take responsibility for functions and the provision of services in the areas of the new municipalities.

The former cross-boundary municipalities also benefited from the additional funding to the equitable share baseline allocated from the vertical division of revenue, and were shielded from any negative impacts of the adjustments to the population, powers and functions that were effected to the equitable share formula in making allocations for the previous financial year. This is in addition to the approximately R550 million that had been allocated to former cross-boundry municipalities as at 31 March 2007 for purposes of facilitating the implementation of municipal infrastructure projects.

Finally, we have deployed experts in the former cross-boundary municipalities who are providing both infrastructure and institutional support. Institutional support includes financial and economic development and integrated development planning-type support. The National Treasury, the Department of Provincial and Local Government, and the SA Local Government Association as well as the provincial and national sector departments will upscale efforts for continued service provision.

It is clear that many of the advances we made in the last three years were a result of special rapid capacity enhancement measures which we introduced as and when they were deemed necessary. Indeed, others were a result of the system of government itself achieving requisite levels of maturity. A critical implication of this is that we need to determine whether or not the current governance and development context requires a rethink of aspects of the local government policy which was, in any case, formulated in the period between 1993 and 1998.

We need to ask ourselves whether some of the inertness we have experienced so far is path-dependent or perhaps a function of retrogressive routines we have evolved since 1994. This and other related questions have come to light following the local government review of 2005 which shows challenges that need to be addressed.

The lessons learnt through Project Consolidate have brought these matters into even sharper relief. It is clear that we do not as yet have a settled model, in the necessary detail, to efficiently handle the inevitable contestation over powers and functions within and between spheres of government. We must establish a policy framework which is clear enough to enable us to navigate the necessary tension between processes of recentralising some aspects of power and those of decentralising others.

In view of this, the January 2007 Cabinet lekgotla instructed the Department of Provincial and Local Government to initiate two separate but related processes: a review of the White Paper on Local Government and the formulation of the White Paper on provincial government. This has not existed up to now. There has been a constitutional provision but no policy framework.

The two processes are about to begin. They are meant to span a two-year period. They will unfold in a three-phase process: firstly, there will be the publication of questions in July 2007 to provide an overview of the major issues on which policy is required; secondly, there shall be ongoing extended research to examine these issues in more detail and to provide possible policy options in a Green Paper which will be published towards the end of 2007; and lastly, following gazetting, public comment and feedback, the final drafting of the two White Papers will commence in early 2008.

Chairperson and hon members, we call on all South Africans to fully embrace the opportunity created by these processes and participate in helping shape a governance system which, needless to say, will have immensely profound implications for all of us. I thank you. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): I just want to bring to the attention of hon members that the presiding officer is guided by the decision of the whippery in terms of the speakers’ list. With due respect, hon Chief Whip, I am responding to some notices I have been inundated with. Unless I am directed by the Chief Whip to make changes to the speakers’ list, I cannot do so on my own. No notice, except one from the Chief Whip, can change that. I also want to bring to your attention that, through the authority of the Chief Whip, which I am following now, I will call upon the hon chairperson of the committee, hon Shiceka, instead of hon McKenzie. Mr S SHICEKA: Chairperson, Minister, the Deputy Minister in abstentia, MEC from the smart province, special delegates present, members of the media, officials of the department, comrades and friends, it is a privilege and an honour, once more, to be addressing you on behalf of the NCOP, through the select committee.

This policy debate takes place at a time when the youth of our country are engaged in the process of commemorating and remembering the sacrifices that were made by their forebears in the struggle for liberation. This celebration takes the form of a Youth Parliament that is starting today and will end on Friday.

This activity is taking place here as the culmination of a protracted process that started in provincial parliaments and that ends here, in Parliament. This process was supposed to have started in all our 283 municipalities across the length and breadth of our country. Parliament is recognising the valuable contributions that have been made by the youth, but at the same time those contributions are still being made in shaping the democracy of our country.

Minister, through you Chairperson, the youth are speaking to the issues of being politically active and taking charge of the future. But, at the same time, the youth are informed and appreciate the shape of our democracy. It is the youth that are focused on community issues, that ensure that matters are resolved through debates and discussions.

We have to ask ourselves a question: How do these policies find expression in our municipalities, in terms of institutions that have developed that level and also in terms of service delivery? How much of the over R100 billion Budget in the MTEF period is going to the youth?

Also, this debate is taking place at a time when the ruling party is going to pause and reflect on activities of the past 13 years, and develop policies that are going to shape our country, our continent and the world in the next 10 years.

There is no time in the history of this country where there has been so much focus on local government through Project Consolidate and through the Five-Year Local Government Strategic Agenda. You have managed to capture the imagination of our society. You have managed and continue to mobilise all sectors of our society to ensure that this sphere of government is responsive to the needs of the populace and to ensure that the economy grows. All these activities are informed by the integrated development plans, which are supposed to be used as the Bible is by Christians, in the activities that guide the municipalities.

The only time that we had a situation where the focus was put on local government was in the period 1995 to 1999. It was when there was the Masakhane Campaign. That Masakhane Campaign encouraged our communities to say that, as much as they enjoy rights, those rights go with responsibilities, namely you must pay for the services that you receive. But that applied to people who could afford to do so.

In our view, as a committee, the department is on the right course in terms of the strategic direction, because everyone knows where we are going, except those who might not want to know where we are going as a country. The committee has conducted oversight activities by calling MECs from various provinces, Salga structures in various provinces as well as the portfolio committees. To date, we have dealt with five provinces.

We have also conducted oversight visits to provinces jointly with the Select Committee on Finance. We have been focusing on public participation, in terms of ward committees and community development workers. We have been focusing on the development of priorities at local level in the form of IDPs and at the same time focusing on the state of finances in municipalities, but that also goes with viability.

We have also looked at institutional development, organisational capacity and delegation of powers amongst office bearers at local level. This joint oversight has taught us one of the lessons that we have learnt: That regarding the development of IDPs, we still have to strengthen the participation of departments from provinces and also at national level, as well as that of state-owned enterprises.

That area needs to be strengthened and, at the same time, when we look at the Millennium Development Goals in terms of attaining the goals we have set ourselves, we find that there is still a lot that has to be done concerning the co-ordination of these activities to ensure that we are able to reach that target.

We welcome, Minister, the efforts that have been made by your together with the MECs, in ensuring that this year your focus is going to be focusing on the eradication of the bucket system, so that we are able to reach the target set by our country. In this regard, we feel that the step that we are taking is going to assist us to move in the proper direction. Under your leadership, we believe that the co-operative spirit that must be undertaken through co-operative governance in these spheres of government is very important.

The community as such is going to be focusing on the implementation of the Intergovernmental Relations Framework Act to ensure that these systems that have been put in place institutionally are functioning optimally. They are utilising the best of the country so that we are able to move forward. We are proposing that legislation must be developed. Such legislation must focus on development planning. It must be an instrument that strengthens joint planning, joint implementation as well as joint monitoring at that level.

We feel that there is a lacuna at this stage in our country, which is supposed to be filled in. It is supposed to be developed so that, as a country, we can move forward in raising our issues.

One other matter that we want to raise is that the NCOP has a strategic partner in the form of the Minister for Provincial and Local Government. The Minister for Provincial and Local Government is responsible for strengthening the development of provinces and local government. At the same time, the NCOP is a House of provinces and municipalities.

We are seeing a decline in the participation of the executive in this House, and that of the Premiers and the MECs. Even in this House today we have one MEC and this is proof of what I am saying.

We think that this matter is supposed to be given attention. It is supposed to be discussed by the leadership of the institution, working with ourselves so that we are able to find creative solutions on this matter. Probably, this matter needs to be taken to the Presidential Co-ordinating Committee, where provinces are encouraged to use their House to get the best out of it so that this platform will be able to ensure that issues of national importance are taken up. I want to conclude by saying that we support the budget of the department. We believe that we are on the right course with this budget, but we believe that the utilisation of this budget is key to avoiding a situation of underexpenditure which is happening in various municipalities and also in various provinces.

I want to thank the department for its co-operation with the committee. Also, I want to thank the committee members for their incisive engagement. Moreover, I want to thank my family for their understanding and support. Thank you very much.

Mr P C MCKENZIE (Western Cape): Chairperson, Minister, hon members, it is good for me, once again, to be in this House. It is a privilege to be speaking after my friend and comrade and I am glad that he thanked me also, as part of his family. Thank you. [Laughter.]

Minister, we support the idea of the proposed White Paper on provincial government and local government that you are talking about. I think it will help us to begin to strengthen provincial support for local government, especially now that more responsibility has also been given in terms of an oversight over municipalities’ finances.

So, I think, after 13 years, it is the right thing to look back and see how we can improve, so that no one in the various spheres of government feels that you are just a post office, but that there is empowerment and growth amongst everyone.

Minister, I also want to thank you, from the Western Cape side, of course, for your assistance and your department’s assistance to us in this province. You have been a good delivery arm and we can always depend on you, especially since we had floods the other day in the Western Cape – particularly on the West Coast side where different kinds of floods occur in the townships.

Floods occur in the townships on a yearly basis and it is just a pity that the local government and municipalities surrounding those areas are not coming to the party to assist those people, especially in Crossroads and other areas that, year after year, experience this problem with floods. In fact, I looked at the newspaper the other day and saw an item where the mayor of the area said that it was just a matter of people blocking the drains with stones and paper. We investigated the issue and actually found out that those drains have not been cleaned for the last couple of years.

So, one needs to say thank you for your assistance in terms of the flooding and we ask you to ensure that the quality of life of people is always improved and looked at, and that our people are not subjected to this annual flooding, which results in such a bad situation in the area.

Regarding some of the challenges that we have in the Western Cape, I want to mention some of them and just talk around them. We are grateful for the CDWs that were started. Some of them are doing tremendous work, but are we really getting quality for the money that we are putting into it? By this I mean that we have a number of CDWs within the province of the Western Cape who have been trained but who are not equipped. They are trained, but some of them are just sitting at home. They are being trained, but some of them are just used for organising political meetings.

Now, I don’t believe that that is what the government intended for CDWs. I believe that the CDWs are an important aspect and can play a meaningful role as our people in local government also change and transform to the new standards that have come before us.

I want to say, Minister, regarding the other field of housing where there is this Breaking New Ground approach – and we are grateful for that – in a number of townships within the Western Cape that were built in the olden days under the ghetto system we have still not seen radical improvement, especially in this metro, in those areas. Those people in the townships that have voted for and supported us and this government are turning around and asking what changes are there from what was there before to what is there now, in the streets where they live.

Regarding the province where I come from, I begin to wonder if a concerted effort cannot be made in those ghettos that were created by the apartheid government so that we can begin to see how we can make life a little bit better for those people in those houses by improving the facilities, standards and roads and by improving service delivery within those areas. This is what we ask.

It is a pity that our system is calling for many more ward committees but we still have a situation within this very metro where ward committees have not yet been established. We have now had 13 years of democracy but ward committees have not yet been established, and so I ask that there must be pressure … [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Order! Hon members, Cape Town belongs to all South Africans and, please, let us understand that. The hon member is protected, he must speak and express his views without any undue interference and interjections. You may continue, hon member.

Mr P C MCKENZIE (Western Cape): Thank you very much, Chairperson. The reason I ask for ward committees is because, through ward committees, you draw your local communities closer to local government. And, this is in terms of your own speech, hon Minister, in which you spoke about the IDPs. Regarding the IDPs, you clearly asked that there must be consultation with the local community and either the provincial or national levels.

Now, because there are no ward communities in this city, you find that your consultation for IDPs have not really taken place within the community that the IDPs affect. This is the type of dilemma and challenges that we have. Another challenge, of course, is the capacity in those areas, and this was mentioned by you when you spoke of the human capacity and the resources. Our rural areas in the Western Cape are faced with this problem of capacity.

When we speak about capacity, Minister, there is a lack of municipal managers within this province. There is a lack of town planners within this province and so where rural municipal areas want so much to deliver, they cannot deliver because they do not have the necessary capacity and the necessary human resources to do that. When they place an advertisement in the newspaper, one can immediately see that when a metro places a similar advert, people would rather apply for the metro post and not for the one in the rural areas.

A new plan needs to be envisaged and a new plan needs to be thought out, perhaps by you at the various MEC meetings that you have. District councils should perhaps be capacitated, strengthened and empowered so that they can have the human resource capacity. That capacity can be shared with the municipalities around them. We ask you to look at one major concern, namely the disaster management programme. Now, Minister, we try to devolve, we try to say to local authorities and local municipalities: You should run with disaster management. But then we have a municipality that turns around and says, “Disaster management is not part of our competency.” Disaster management is not part of the schedule for municipalities but, like libraries, it is part of provincial and national competencies.

One needs to really look at that issue. Perhaps one needs to review whether it is not an amendment to the Constitution that is necessary; and whether the system is working, so that local areas where disasters happen can come to the fore and not just try to get help from provinces. There are a number of local authorities that have the necessary know-how and the necessary capacity to deal with disaster management, but they like to do only what the law tells them to do and nothing further and the community and the people suffer as a result.

In my final point, I just want to say to the Minister: There is a huge problem and we have experienced that problem here in the Western Cape. Even recently - and with our dry summers and even now with our winters when people light fires within their houses in order to stay warm - we have found a number of shacks and a number of informal houses and areas which have burnt down. By the time the fire department or fire engines get to that place, everything is already destroyed.

We looked at that and we wondered why it was that by the time the fire department got to a place in Crossroads, Mfuleni, everything was destroyed. The reason is that there is no fire station that is built within a disadvantaged area, in this province. The only two that were built are the one in Mitchells Plain and the one in Khayelitsha and nowhere else. All the fire stations that are built in this city, Minister … [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mnr L H FIELDING: Agb Voorsitter, agb lede van die Raad, besoekers, dames en here, goeie middag. Ek wil vandag begin deur hier te sê dat plaaslike regering `n besigheid is en as sulks gehanteer moet word. Ek wil verder noem dat die tyd van vergaderings verby is. Die mense wat vir ons gestem het, wil vorentoe gevat word en dit is ons plig as leiers.

Kragtens die Openbare Finansieswet, na aanleiding van `n berig van 18 Junie 2007, mag die regering met geen misdadigers besigheid doen nie. Ek verwys spesifiek na behuisingskontrakte op plaaslike regeringsvlak. Ek wil ook verwys na die Nasionale Intelligensie Agentskap wat glo ontplooi sal word in verskillende staatsdepartemente en indien dit so is, dan wil ek dit verwelkom. Hulle sal korrupsie binnenhuis hokslaan en dit sodoende uitroei.

Ek wil ook in die afwesigheid van ons Minister van Verdediging baie dankie sê namens die gemeenskap van die Noord-Kaap vir sy vinnige optrede na aanleiding van Ammunisiedepot 93 nader aan Jan Kempdorp.

Minister, ek dink u gaan met my saamstem vandag in hierdie Raad as ek sê dat Suid-Afrika oor al die nege provinsies heen in n dilemma geplaas is as gevolg van huise wat n agterstand in Suid-Afrika het. Daar is n agterstand, nie omdat die regering nie geld het nie, maar n agterstand omdat die regering aan misdadigers en bankkrot kontrakteurs geld uitbetaal het en nou kan hulle nie die huise vir ons mense voorsien nie. Ek beskou dit as n groot skande teen ons regering, ongeag wie in die regering is, hetsy die DA of die ANC. Dit is n skande vir `n regering dat ons dit verder sal toelaat. Ek wil vra dat die Minister dringend daaraan aandag gee.

Ek wil verder gaan en dan wil ek kyk na die oorsigbesoek van die provinsiale regering in die Noord-Kaap waar n waterrekening van R15 miljoen oor 43 jaar dateer. Dit is by die Sedibeng Waterraad. Dit strek so ver terug as 1964. Minister, as ek vandag nie die kennis van plaaslike regering gehad het nie, dan het ek vandag gesê: Skryf die skuld af en gee ons arm mense drinkwater om te kan drink. Dit is wat hulle vra. Water is n bron waarsonder niemand kan klaarkom nie. Hierdie mense in Jan Kempdorp en Pampierstad is almal arm mense. Dit is mense wat dit nodig het. Dink daaraan. Werk daaraan. Dit is n verleentheid, nie net vir my nie, maar ook vir my medeburgers in Suid-Afrika. Ek het dokumentasie in my kantoor wat verwys na Eskom, want ek glo Eskom moet ’n hulp vir hierdie regering wees en nie n opponent nie. Maar Eskom sê aan mense in Pampierstad: Voordat n nuwe uitbreiding nie 80% bewoon word nie, gaan hulle nie infrastruktuur daar skep nie. Ons kan nie meer daardie tipe van dinge duld nie. Ons leef nie meer in daardie tyd nie. Daarom vra ek vir u dat ons daarna sal kyk: 80% is baie wat op n nuwe uitbreiding moet gaan bly. Mense gaan nie daar bly nie omdat hulle nie daar wil bly nie, maar die omstandighede waarin hulle lewe met `n werkloosheidsyfer laat hulle nie die keuse om daar te bly nie.

Ek wil verder gaan. Ons lees die Grondwet so mooi. So ek glo ook ons verstaan artikels 105, 106 en 139 van die Grondwet wat die bekwaamheid van n munisipaliteit bepaal, en of dit bestuur kan word, al dan nie. Minister, doen wat u gedoen het in Oudtshoorn in die hele land, dan sal ons mense op grondvlak kan lewe. Gaan kyk na die verkeerde dinge. Ek sê nie dat Oudtshoorn verkeerd was nie, maar ek sê ook nie dat hy reg was nie. Die feit wat vir my belangrik is, is dat daar n stap in die regte rigting geneem is en gevra is: Is daar `n fout en wie is skuldig?

Die samewerking tussen die Nasionale Raad van Provinsies en die provinsies is vir my van kardinale belang, omdat ek nog altyd agterkom dat daar ’n bietjie van ’n gaping is tussen die Nasionale Raad van Provinsies en die provinsies. Soos ek hier staan, aanvaar ek nog altyd dat ek n deel van my provinsie is, want ek is n afgevaardigde van my provinsie. Baie dankie. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr L H FIELDING: Hon Chairperson, hon members of the Council, visitors, ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon. Today I want to start by saying that local government is a business and should be treated as such. I also want to add that the time for meetings is passed. The people who voted for us want to be taken forward and that is our duty as leaders.

In terms of the Public Finance Management Act, and in consequence of a report of 18 June 2007, the government may not do business with any criminals. I am referring specifically to housing contracts at local government level. I also want to refer to the National Intelligence Agency that is apparently going to be deployed in various state departments and, if this is so, then I want to welcome it. They will crack down on corruption internally and, in so doing, stamp it out.

In his absence, and on behalf of the community of the Northern Cape, I also want like to thank the Minister of Defence for his rapid response in connection with 93 Ammunition Depot closer to Jan Kempdorp.

Minister, today, in this Council, I think you will agree with me when I say that South Africa, across the nine provinces, has been placed on the horns of a dilemma because of the backlog in the provision of houses in South Africa. The backlog exists not because the government has no money, but because the government paid money to criminals and insolvent contractors, and now they cannot provide houses for our people. I regard this as a massive disgrace to our government, irrespective of who is in power, whether it be the DA or the ANC. It is a disgrace for a government that we allow it to continue. I would like to request the Minister to attend to that urgently.

I want to go further and look at the oversight visit of the Northern Cape provincial government, where a water account of R15 million dates back 43 years. This is at the Sedibeng Water Board. It dates back as far as 1964. Minister, had I today not had the knowledge of local government, then I would have said: Write the debt off and give our poor people water to drink. That is what they ask. Water is a resource without which no one can survive. These people in Jan Kempdorp and Pampierstad are all poor. These are the people that need it. Think about it. Work at it. It is an embarrassment, not just for me, but also for my fellow South African citizens.

In my office I have documentation that relates to Eskom, because I believe that Eskom has to be an aid to this government, and not an opponent. But, Eskom says to the people of Pampierstad: Until a new extension has an 80% occupying rate they will not create infrastructure there. We cannot tolerate those types of comments any longer. We do not live in those times any more. That is why I am asking you that we should review that. Eighty per cent is a huge number that need to live in a new extension. People choose not to live there not because they don’t want to live there, but the circumstances under which they live, coupled with unemployment, do not offer them the choice to live there.

I want to go further. We read the Constitution so beautifully. So I would assume that we understand sections 105, 106 and 139 of the Constitution that determine the competency of a municipality and whether it can be managed or not. Minister, if you can do to the whole country what you did in Oudtshoorn, then our people at grass-roots level will be able to live. Go and look at the wrong things. I am not saying that Oudtshoorn was wrong, nor am I saying it was right. The important fact for me is that a step in the right direction was taken and the question was asked: Is there something wrong and who is to blame?

For me, co-operation between the National Council of Provinces and the provinces is of the utmost importance, because I have detected that there is still a bit of a gap between the NCOP and the provinces. As I stand here, I still accept that I am a part of my province because I am a delegate of my province. Thank you very much. [Applause.]]

Mr N J MACK: Chairperson, hon Minister for Provincial and Local Government, Deputy Minister, hon members, special delegates, in 2004 the Premier of Mpumalanga, Thabang Makwetla, said:

Local government has to become the point of first contact between the citizen and government, making municipalities the frontline service delivery institutions … The role of Salga in partnership with the provincial government is crucial in ensuring that the capacity of municipalities in delivering services is enhanced.

He went on to say that we also need to answer the question whether local government is really closer to the people. Local government must have meaning in the lives of the people. Are we accessible? Do we report back? How do we conduct ourselves? As leaders, we must reduce the social distance between us and the people.

As the ANC, we are worried about the political instability in many councils that threatens to negatively impact on service delivery. We cannot allow a situation where councils are changed for the sole aim of gaining political power to the detriment of the people. With every change of a mayor, the officials are changed.

In the Western Cape there are 30 municipalities, of which 26 are coalition municipalities. We create much more space for instability. Maybe we must have a look at how coalitions are put together, because we have one big party ganging up with a lot of small parties that don’t even have enough representation … [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Order! Hon members, I beg your co- operation to make my work easier, please. Some people are doing certain things and when those things are done against them they are the first ones to accuse presiding officers of partiality and I wouldn’t like that. I want all of you to make my work of maintaining the decorum of the House easier. Please continue, hon member.

Mr N J MACK: Accordingly, last year’s local government elections saw many new councils established and councils inaugurated. As such, the department, in partnership with Salga, has to prepare the incoming councillors to understand their central tasks to enable them to properly discharge their responsibilities.

We must also ensure that each of the district and metropolitan municipalities have the necessary managerial, professional and technical staff to enable them to implement the required developmental programmes beyond Project Consolidate. Let me refer to Oudtshoorn in the Westen Cape, to which the previous speaker also alluded. Oudtshoorn is under the administration of the province, in accordance with sections 106 and 139 of the Constitution. This municipality was not under Project Consolidate. So, how do we identify beforehand when a municipality is getting into problems so that we can act timeously and give assistance? So, how can we see the warning lights regarding this beforehand? This is one of the concerns.

Demonstrations in some local communities that we have witnessed and continue to witness, emphasise the importance of continuous contact between the municipalities and the people to avoid opportunistic elements taking advantage of genuine grievances of the people in pursuit of their own goals that are inconsistent with those of the national democratic government that is led by the ANC … [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Order! On what point are you rising, hon member?

Mr A WATSON: Chairperson, on a point of order: Is it in order for the hon member to mislead the House by quoting sections 106 and 139 of the Constitution? Section 106 has to do with citizenship.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): What is your point of order, hon member? Please, sit down.

Mr A WATSON: I will do that, sir.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Proceed, hon member.

Mr N J MACK: Chairperson, we are aware that our challenges are around strengthening capacity, transforming the financial systems and achieving greater co-operative governance. However, these need to translate into improvement in the delivery of services and better management of resources, including compliance with the Local Government: Municipal Finance Management Act. This has been alluded to by the chairperson of the Select Committee on Local Government and the chairperson of the Select Committee on Finance.

I must thank them for taking the two committees jointly to the Eastern Cape. This oversight visit was very empowering to all those who were involved and has really given us some insight into the financial management of municipalities. I would also like to propose that we should perhaps include the portfolio committee when we go on these visits and do them jointly.

There is insufficient contact, support and interaction between these stakeholders and, as a result, municipalities are undercapacitated to take on the challenge of transforming the quality of life at the local level. This also impacts severely on municipalities’ ability to implement the IDPs.

More than 80% of ward committees have been established in order for communities to be actively involved in managing this development. However, the department needs to work more on improving the effectiveness and efficiency of our system of local government. This year’s budget continues to pay particular attention to Project Consolidate as one of the drivers for capacity-building and support. It is also important for municipalities to have effective monitoring systems and tools in place to support free basic services. Project Consolidate is already beginning to have a positive impact in some of the municipalities by drawing the collective strengths of national and provincial government. The department is well placed to ensure that these spheres of government work harder from now on to further what has been achieved in the spirit of co-operative governance.

There is a concern that I also want to raise in respect of the suspensions that are happening in different municipalities – suspensions of municipal managers and directors. Sometimes you have a municipal manager who is suspended for more than six months or a year with full pay, sitting at home and doing nothing. Municipalities must also give more regard to the process of discipline and ensure that these processes are well advised.

Since the DA has been making such a loud noise today, we should also have our eyes focused, especially on the Central Karoo district municipality where they have a municipal manager whom they will have to pay R800 000. Whilst they were at the Western Cape government they pleaded for money. They are, however, a couple of million rands in the red. They also went to national government to look for money but they have to pay this municipal manager a lot of money. We have to look how this fits into the Local Government: Municipal Finance Management Act. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Dr F J VAN HEERDEN: Mnr die Voorsitter, my bydrae sal grootliks vanuit die Vrystaat se perspektief wees. Dit is bevind dat die beginsel van groepsmunisipaliteite duidelik nie suksesvol is nie. Dit het daartoe bygedra dat kiesers verder vervreem word van hulle plaaslike regeringsinstellings. Kleiner munisipaliteite kan hierdie probleem suksesvol ondervang.

Die beste munisipale bestuurder kan nie ’n munisipaliteit doeltreffend bestuur tensy so ’n persoon die ondersteuning van doeltreffende finansiële bestuur geniet nie. Dis ook verder vir die munisipaleraad onmoontlik om sinvol te beplan en besluite te neem as daar nie sekerheid bestaan oor die werklike finansiële posisie van die munisipaliteit nie. Daar is talle munisipaliteite in die Vrystaat wat nie eers behoorlik bankrekonsiliasiestate kan doen nie en dan is daar ook munisipaliteite wat nie in staat is om die maandrekenings van verbruikers te hanteer nie.

Tot op datum is die finansiële administrasie van ’n groot groep munisipaliteite gedoen deur konsultante of ouditeurfirmas teen hoë koste, dit terwyl daar personeel is om die werk te doen, maar omdat hulle nie oor die vermoë beskik om dit te doen nie moet vir konsultante betaal word, dit wil sê dubbele betaling. Hierdie toedrag van sake is die grootste, indien nie die enigste rede vir swak bestuur, korrupsie, swak dienslewering, ensovoorts nie.

Die eerste stap om die probleem op munisipale vlak reg te stel is om doeltreffende finansiële administrasie te verseker. Sowat ’n jaar gelede het die Vrystaatse VF Plus leier, mnr Oosthuizen, ’n voorstel gemaak en in die lig van die omstandighede wat geheers het, het hy voorgestel dat die tesouriedepartemente by die munisipaliteite in die Vrystaat spesifiek gesluit word en vervang word deur streekstesouriesentrums op distrikvlak wat dan deur kundige personeel wat op meriete aangestel word beman word.

Hierdie sentrums verrig dan die finansiële administrasie van die munisipaliteite en wel teen betaling deur die betrokke munisipaliteite. Rekeninge sal dan nog steeds plaaslik betaal word en die inkomste sal plaaslik gedeponeer word, maar die res van die finansiële administrasie sal by die sentrums hanteer word. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Dr F J VAN HEERDEN: Chairperson, my contribution will mainly be from a Free State perspective. It has been proved that the principle of group municipalities is clearly unsuccessful. It has contributed to the further alienation of voters from their local government institutions. Smaller municipalities can successfully solve this problem.

The best municipal manager cannot manage a municipality effectively unless such a manager has the support of effective financial management. Furthermore, it is also impossible for the municipal council to plan meaningfully and make decisions if there is no certainty about the true financial position of the municipality. There are many municipalities in the Free State that cannot even draw up proper bank reconciliation statements and there are also municipalities that are incapable of handling the monthly accounts of consumers.

To date, the financial administration of a large group of municipalities has been done by consultants or auditing firms at high cost; this while there are staff members who are employed to do the job but because they do not possess the skills to do so, consultants have to be paid to do the work, and this results in double payments being made. This state of affairs is the primary, if not the only reason, for poor management, corruption, poor service delivery, etc.

The first step that must be taken to solve the problem at municipal level is to ensure effective financial administration. About a year ago the leader of the FF Plus in the Free State, Mr Oosthuizen, made a proposal and in the light of existing circumstances, he proposed that treasury departments at municipalities in the Free State, in particular, should be closed down and be replaced with regional treasury centres at district level, staffed by expert staff that are appointed on merit.

These centres will then deal with the financial administration of the municipalities and will indeed be remunerated by the relevant municipalities. Accounts will still be settled locally and revenue will be deposited locally but the rest of the financial administration will be done at these centres.]

I listened with interest when the Minister referred to the deployment of experts from the former cross-border municipalities and he said that they will supply institutional support and include financial and economic development. It may be something in line with what we have in mind. If that is the case, then it needs to be welcomed; if not, we would like to make this proposal: Come up with regional treasury centres instead of the local treasury departments at the municipalities. I thank you.

Mr A T MANYOSI: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon MECs and hon members, I would like to address this House on the key issue of urban and rural development in general, with particular reference to the predominantly black areas. Martin Luther King Junior once suggested that our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter, and in our case it is about the legacy of the policy of separate development.

I put the emphasis on black areas precisely because centuries and decades of colonial and apartheid rule respectively had targeted black areas – the townships and rural areas - as testing grounds for the viability or otherwise of the policy of separate development. That policy left us with a huge challenge to repair, reconstruct and develop a situation that had been deliberately and elaborately created to enforce and ensure racial inequality.

In contrast to that barbaric policy, the present democratic government has to ensure the improvement of the lives of all our people, with particular attention to the most vulnerable and needy communities in the urban townships and rural areas. In discharging this crucial responsibility, the democratic state should, for a moment, turn a deaf ear to the desperate screams of self-interest.

These desperate screams are intended to defend unduly accumulated privilege and distract government from taking appropriate corrective steps to achieve equity, for there is no other way that can allow our society to move from racial discrimination to true equality for all racial groups. This will also address the challenge of the influx and migration of people to developed areas to escape the effects of underdevelopment. Underdevelopment is the source of all social ills and affects those who live in developed areas too.

It is in this context that we should view the budget of the Department of Provincial and Local Government. In the words of our President:

It should seek to strengthen our system of local government to respond to the challenges of reconstruction and development in urban and rural areas.

Local government should be financially resourced to effectively pursue its central responsibility to develop infrastructure and also contribute to job creation, small business development and other development programmes striving continuously to eradicate poverty and underdevelopment.

The issue of the delays in the filling of vacant posts in most municipalities, as also highlighted by the President in his state of the nation address, has indeed had an adverse effect on critical service delivery. Therefore, this requires urgent attention. This situation is obvious in almost all the provinces and cries out for the redirection of our education and training towards the development of appropriate skills.

The participation of the masses on the ground is a condition without which we cannot achieve our collective objective to reconstruct and develop these areas. Having elected representatives and administrators does not absolve the masses of our people from active participation and from playing an interventionist role in the process of development and governance through, amongst other things, the ward committees.

The need for partnerships with other social partners to address the growth and development challenges posed by the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Programme and the Urban Renewal Programme cannot be overemphasised. Local government should be supplied with adequate funds to prepare and ensure the implementation of integrated development plans and the development of co-operatives and other projects in both urban and rural areas. This is key to the achievement of the goals of reconstruction and development.

We should derive satisfaction from, and applaud, the new developments yielded by government efforts in a patient dialogue with traditional leaders who have since accepted their historical responsibility to participate fully and actively as partners in the struggle to eradicate underdevelopment.

Our Constitution expects government to create a legislative space for the role of traditional leaders in matters affecting local communities. We now have traditional councils in a number of municipal areas with our traditional leaders enthusiastically playing a leadership role that has been lacking in recent years.

In conclusion, our Constitution provides for co-operative governance and this requires, in this case, that provincial and national governments extend a helping hand and support, financially or otherwise, local government endeavours to bring about a better life for all.

The ANC supports the budget, moderately increased as it is. [Applause.]

Mr M A MZIZI: Sihlalo, Ngqongqoshe kazwelonke nePhini lakhe, Ngqongqoshe wesifundazwe - noma esephumile, nani bozakwethu, unwele olude! [Chairperson, national Minister and his Deputy, provincial Minister - although she has left - and colleagues, long live!]

We all know that the main function of the Department of Provincial and Local Government is to develop and promote a national system of integrated and co-operative governance, and to support provincial and local government.

In this debate, the IFP will focus on the department’s strategic plan up to 2009-10 containing the department’s objectives to establish a sustainable system of local government, to provide infrastructure and other essential services.

The other main issue is Project Consolidate. While we welcome the government’s initiative in launching this intervention, the question must be asked whether it has in fact provided weak municipalities with the necessary fiscal and other resources to recruit and appoint appropriate personnel to improve service delivery.

We have to raise these questions because of the recent protest marches in various municipalities, where lack of service delivery and, in some instances, nondelivery were highlighted by disgruntled citizens. We have to ask whether the department has taken note of the reasons for these protests and whether it has taken stock of the success or failure of Project Consolidate.

The IFP also wants to focus on the policy framework for provincial and local government, the Integrated Rural Development Programme and the Urban Renewal Programme. I have to ask whether these policies have achieved their stated objectives. Have they in fact improved service delivery and, more importantly, have they actually alleviated poverty? Hon Minister, are the poor, marginalised and disadvantaged communities actually benefiting and are they getting better service delivery from these policies?

The 2007-08 budget for the Department of Provincial and Local Government increased by about R3,5 billion, with most of the increase going to the bigger allocations for systems and capacity-building, and transfers to provincial and local government.

While the IFP supports the increased allocation to DPLG, we must ask why, after 13 years, the department is still struggling to put adequate and workable systems in place and to obtain the necessary capacity to carry out its mandate. Surely there has been more than enough time for planning and policy formulation. It is now time for service delivery. In fact, service delivery should have been the focus from day one and because it was not, we can understand why protests are taking place around the country.

Minister, herein lies the crux for your department: It is simply not good enough to say that the national department only plays a policy role and that, actually, delivery takes place at provincial and local government level. We know that that is the case, but we also know that co-operative governance means that your department must lead the way and must monitor service delivery at the lower levels. You must also ensure that service delivery actually takes place to alleviate poverty and improve people’s lives. I thank you.

An HON MEMBER: Malibongwe! [Let it be praised!]

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Igama lakho! [Kwahlekwa.] [Let your name be praised!] [Laughter.]]

Hon Chairperson, hon MEC for local government, chairperson of the Select Committee on Local Government and Administration, hon Shiceka, hon members of the House and distinguished guests, I am tempted to respond to hon Mzizi – ongamamelanga ngoku, noncokolayo [who is not listening now, but is busy talking]. Mr Mzizi speaks as if he lives on another planet, but I will leave that to my Minister so that he can respond to the many questions that you have asked regarding what we are capable of and not capable of doing, as the Department of Provincial and Local Government.

The hon Minister spoke earlier on about our achievements regarding our Project Consolidate interventions and the important relationship between our basic services and infrastructure delivery, and economic development initiatives at local level. It is important that we build and talk more about these themes.

The NCOP stands at the apex of our intergovernmental relations system and brings together all three spheres in areas of policy deliberation and legislation. As such, the NCOP has a crucial role to play in ensuring that the system of co-operative governance works effectively.

I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate the NCOP on its initiative of taking the NCOP to the people. Direct interactions with the people of our country have become a routine practice that contribute to deepening democracy and responsiveness to the developmental needs of our communities.

Hon members should note that we have done well to improve the adoption rate of the integrated development plans, which stands at 98% for the 2006-07 financial year. All Premiers’ co-ordinating forums have been established, and all 46 districts have established their intergovernmental forums in terms of the Intergovernmental Relations Framework Act of 2005. Provinces have established monitoring and evaluation units in their Premiers’ offices. These intergovernmental processes have, in part, directly contributed to the steady progress that we are making in addressing our service delivery backlogs and challenges.

The President, in his state of the nation address, said that this year we should complete concrete plans on the implementation of the targets for universal access to water in 2008, sanitation in 2010 and electricity in

1. Today we can report on some key indicators of progress.

The current national backlog on the use of the bucket system stands at 106 873 households. We are confident that our immediate target to eradicate this backlog will be achieved by December 2007. Universal access to water supply had increased from 59% of the total households in 1994 to 86% by April 2007. Universal access to sanitation had increased from 48% in 1994 to 73% by April 2007.

Hon members, we know the spread of these backlogs throughout our municipalities, and the kinds of assistance and support that they require – Mr Mzizi from the IFP. We know about that.

In closing his state of the nation address, the President was correct to say, and I quote:

We are not there yet. But no one, except ourselves, shall ensure that this dream is realised. And so, let us roll up our sleeves and get down to work, fully understanding that the task to build the South Africa for which we yearn is a common responsibility we all share.

[Interjections.] That hon member is right – including the DA and they must learn to be responsible.

Regarding learning from experience and feeding these lessons into policy reform processes, what makes us comfortable to talk openly about these challenges is the fact that we do believe that we have the full might of the intergovernmental machinery as well as the support of major private- sector partners behind us to deal with many of these challenges. We believe, and we have proved this through the two years of implementing Project Consolidate since 2004, that, through working collaboratively and partnerships, we can get faster and better quality services to our communities.

The lessons learnt will therefore feed into a review of the White Paper on Local Government to bring aspects of policy in line with practice and the development of a coherent policy framework for provincial government. As partners in development, we should heed the President’s call in his state of the nation address to ensure that our development initiatives do not exclude the often-marginalised groups in our society: our children, youth, women and people with disabilities. 

To the extent possible, we have to afford these designated groups access to opportunities for development and advancement and continue to capacitate them so that they not only benefit from our development initiatives but are also able to contribute to the achievement of our development objectives, now and in the future.

Going forward, partnerships are critical, if we wish to succeed in bringing quality services to our people, especially regarding vulnerable groups. We are committed, going forward, to focusing on the partnerships we have built to enable more attention to be paid to improving the quality of delivery, especially aimed at vulnerable groups such as women, children, youth and the disabled. 

Violence against women and children remains one of the most pressing challenges in South Africa. Entrenched social and cultural norms make gender-based violence a particularly difficult problem. But, we do not need to feel defeated by this difficult challenge of violence against women and children. It is through the small things that we do that we can make a difference.

Local government has a big role to play. By paying attention to very small things, it should ensure that the planning and service delivery focus on a holistic, targeted approach to ending violence against women and children.

Members would recall that the 16 Days of Activism Campaign against violence directed at women and children has already intensified its fight against gender-based violence by getting all the partners together, including big business and NGOs to, once more, put the issue of women and children’s safety on the national agenda. We launched our 365-Day National Action Plan early this year, which aims at dealing with this scourge in a more interventionist and programmatic manner.

As the campaign drivers, we still insist on taking the action plan to where it has never been, and where it matters most. We are taking it to the rural areas, to the farms and informal settlements. With this plan, we want ordinary women and children to feel, make sense of and find meaning in the notion of a free society for all.

There is no better place to make an effective start than our very own municipalities. This plan requires the dedicated support of all sectors of our society for it to stand a chance of succeeding. The provision and location of water and sanitation points, parks, open spaces, community centres, public transport routes and links, as well as municipal markets, are all critical priorities. These are examples of decisions we make on a daily basis as government, and they can have a significant effect on the safety and quality of life of women and girl- children.

When we develop our integrated development plans, our local economic development strategies and our strategic plans, we must speak to women and children and ask them what their needs are. That simple conversation and consultation with women and children does not cost much money and can make a big difference to how we plan and implement projects, and can ultimately lead to a safer and better quality environment for our communities.

If municipalities do not consult on their plans, chances are they will experience protests that would otherwise have been avoided had this simple conversation taken place. In this regard, our ward councillors and ward committee members have an important and proactive role to play.

Our ward committees are not just intended to get government to communicate, plan and implement better together, but ultimately these plans must be consulted on and communicated to intended beneficiaries. Ward committees are critical structures in the facilitation of this communication. We all have a responsibility to improve our communication with our people. If we do not communicate with our people, we leave them vulnerable to all sorts of negative influences that, in turn, create the social gap between government and its people.

We want to call on our communities to use their energies to contribute positively to the achievement of national priorities, targets and plans. My call to communities is: We need the passions and energies that you are displaying, but we need these to be deployed in support of the positive efforts of your local elected leadership in order to create a better life for all.

Hon members, I mentioned this in the National Assembly, but its importance compels me to mention it once again in this House: For me, communication is important because it helps us to convey good news to the communities we serve. Equally so, it helps us to convey the challenges we face, the plans we have in place to deal with those challenges, but most importantly it provides a platform where our communities can air their views, and sometimes even help us find solutions to our problems. [Time expired.] Thank you very much.

Ms Q D MAHLANGU (Gauteng): Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister, hon members, comrades and friends, I would like to talk about a few issues and not elaborate on issues that we are dealing with in the province. However, I will touch on some issues that are pertinent if we are to succeed in the work we are doing. The first issue that I would like to talk about is an integrated approach which, in my view, is crucial if we are to succeed in implementing the Local Government Five-Year Strategic Agenda. I am saying this because, without national parastatals and provincial entities, the integrated development plans would not remain our basic planning tool. As we speak today, some sector departments as well as parastatals are still not seeing the IDPs as the basic planning tool of government.

At this point I would like to indicate that in Gauteng province the IDPs of municipalities have increased in terms of quality and submission of their annual financial statements on time. However, the input from stakeholders remains a challenge. At this point I would like to highlight that the work that the Airports Company of South Africa is doing, working with Ekurhuleni, is one of those examples which I would like to call upon all other parastatals to emulate and work with us in order for us to move forward.

One of the challenges in terms of using the integrated development plans as a planning tool concerns parastatals such as Eskom and Rand Water and so forth, in that by the time municipalities have adopted the IDPs they still do not have sufficient information from these public entities. In my view, this remains an ongoing weakness for us to succeed in this integrated approach that we are talking about.

The second matter that I want to talk about, Minister, is in relation to the issue of the provision of basic services. In my view, we are well on course in my province, whether it is in relation to issues of sanitation, water or eradication of the bucket system. As we speak now, we have already eradicated the bucket system in the province.

However, the major challenge is that most of our communities who live in informal settlements still do not have the appropriate sanitation system. Therefore, going forward, we will work with the Departments of Provincial and Local Government, Water Affairs and Forestry and other relevant sector departments to address these challenges as well as issues of access to potable water for households. We are well on course concerning these issues.

Again, the challenge is that we have huge numbers of people who live in informal settlements who still do not have water for their households. This is an issue to look at as we move into the inclusionary Breaking New Ground housing policy. Going forward, we will be in a position to deal with this issue.

In terms of the provincial government, we have, together with municipalities, adopted a province-wide indigent strategy which is meant to make sure that communities that are still facing difficulties in paying for services could be assisted through that policy framework. Regarding people who are unable to bury their loved ones upon their death, the indigent burial policy that municipalities are implementing, in my view, is complementing what municipalities are doing in the province.

The challenge, Minister, and one of the things we must talk about, is that the media is very good at highlighting problems that municipalities face but it is not good at highlighting the significant areas. Among the challenges which remain a thorny issue in terms of electricity supply, are illegal connections of electricity which result in most people having no access to electricity, cable theft and inefficient usage of electricity by all of us.

I think those are issues that all of us, as a society and as MPs, should be working on together as a whole and across the spectrum of our society. We need to try and manage matters related to electricity in an efficient way, because if we do not do that, we are simply reversing the infrastructure investment that could be made in fast-tracking and preparing us to meet the 2012 target.

With regard to municipal support, my view is that, through Project Consolidate, municipal support is bearing fruit in our municipalities. I would just like to cite a few success stories. For the first time in the province, the municipalities have been in a position to submit their annual financial statements on time to the Auditor-General. Out of those municipalities that submitted their annual financial statements, a number of them have received unqualified audit reports.

There has been an improvement in expenditure in terms of infrastructure and, to a great extent, a reduction in problems relating to the billing systems. However, the community is not informed about these things because the media chooses to publicise the negative over the positive.

There are challenges that we must still overcome regarding these areas, together with the provincial treasury and the Department of Provincial and Local Government, and with other national departments. I am confident that the remaining challenges will be overcome and that capacity-building within municipalities will be strengthened.

We welcome the review of the White Paper on Local Government because, in our view, we have observed that, over the past few years, there have been, amongst other things, weaknesses in the local government system that we need to deal with. One of these relates to issues of oversight and accountability, that is at local government level there is no difference between the executive and the council.

We have observed that the council plays the referee and a player at the same time and we have already begun to pilot through some of the projects that seek to separate the powers between the executive and the council, in that regard. We have introduced public accounts committees in all the municipalities in the province and, as we speak, they are undergoing training in order to give the council the authority to exercise oversight over the executive and its entities.

The second issue relating to the above-mentioned is the two-tier system of local government and its relationship with municipalities in the districts and local municipalities. I hope the review that we are talking about is going to help us strengthen and improve certain areas that we have observed in local government.

With regard to the White Paper on Provincial Government, this is long overdue and we must welcome the processes that we have outlined. We must all work within that process to bring our views to the table and this will provide guidance as we go forward and improve our system of government, particularly regarding Chapter 3 of the Constitution.

One of the challenges that we are faced with in the province is that of implementing the Growth and Development Summit programmes as they have been agreed upon, in terms of funding and capacity. The point I am emphasising here is about integration, co-ordination and working together with a number of important departments. These include the Department of Trade and Industry as well as the Department of Minerals and Energy, in talking to some of the issues that the Growth and Development Summit requires the municipalities to deal with, because without implementing those programmes relating to issues of local economic development, improving people’s lives and ensuring that they realise the benefit of this freedom, we are not going to get anywhere.

Municipalities are also faced with the issue of continuously looking for people who are qualified local economic developers, and I think, collectively and working with different institutions, we can overcome some of these challenges.

Lastly, we are paying attention to the issue of deepening democracy as part of improving public participation, and our governance model is also an issue that we are paying attention to. However, we cannot succeed if indeed our communities continue not to be capacitated.

Our citizenry are very weak. Regarding the lack of ability to engage the state which is so well resourced and has skilled personnel, we are not going to be in a position to get the benefits to our citizenry as we expect them to access those, because their capacity to engage with us remains weak. Of course, we have ward committees in place and we have community development workers in place - who are not replacements for ward councillors.

I think, in the long term, we have to find a clear mechanism of ensuring that those CDWs support ward councillors and also enable them to do their work on a daily basis. The CDWs should be able to mobilise all the communities to be behind them, because some of these protests that we see throughout the country are not about service delivery only but are also about lack of access to information.

As a result, people are frustrated and then they take to the streets. We must not view them in a negative light. However, to the extent that they are keeping us on our toes, we need to accordingly respond to the issues they raise, because some people are still living in informal settlements and there is no clear plan outlined and communicated to the communities.

I want to thank you very much for allowing me to participate in the debate. [Applause.]

Mr B J MKHALIPHI: Hon Minister and Deputy Minister, hon MEC, hon members of the NCOP and our representative of Salga, the strides we have made since the introduction of our first democratic local government system from the year 2000 to this day make us proud and such achievements are unprecedented anywhere in the world. More than at any time in our history, local government is being judged on its ability to deliver services, promote socioeconomic development, deepen democracy and govern effectively. When we began the long journey in the year 2000, we were cognisant of the fact that along the way we would have to revisit some of our plans and strategies to make sure that we remain on the right path. This we have done without fail, as we have introduced programmes such as Project Consolidate, the Five-Year Local Government Strategic Agenda, and interventions such as on areas of municipal finance viability and management, and technical capacity to support infrastructure development. These and other programmes and interventions have all been aimed at making sure that we remain on course.

When delivering your budget speech on 6 June in the National Assembly, hon Minister, you gave us a road map that we must follow in making sure that we continue with our efforts to transform local government with its financial, technical and administrative challenges.

Our integrated developmental plans are our focal points. We fully concur with you, hon Minister, that the IDP engagement processes have increased community engagement and have led to the adoption of these IDPs. Through the engagement processes in the past financial year, all municipalities in Mpumalanga were able to adopt their IDPs on time.

The introduction of the Five-Year Local Government Strategic Agenda has enabled us to assist municipalities to deliver on their mandate. It is also important to state that the rolling out of this programme has set challenges in our provinces. One of the major challenges has been the involvement of the other sector departments. We are also glad to inform this House that we are, certainly, overcoming this challenge. These challenges and lessons will assist us as we push forward with the strategic agenda.

Our municipalities continue to be faced with the problem of the exodus of skilled personnel. This can be attributed to the brain drain and the reaching of retirement age. These problems are worsened by the fact that it is extremely difficult to attract skilled personnel to small municipalities. Often, the salaries in these municipalities are not competitive and a small town is not that attractive to skilled people.

In the past financial year, only eight experts were deployed to the province through the Siyenza Manje Programme. Our need for these experts continues to grow and we will be engaging both the Department of Provincial and Local Government and the Development Bank of Southern Africa to request more experts to assist our municipalities.

As a province, we continue to ensure that governance and public participation are the pillars on which we build our democracy in municipalities, in our province. To date, we have established 365 ward committees in all our municipalities. Furthermore, we have been able to make a positive impact with the community development workers’ programme. A total of 360 CDWs have been employed in the past financial year and have been deployed to municipalities.

This year, Mpumalanga has identified five flagship programmes which have the potential to make a macro impact on the development of the province. These programmes have been identified for special attention through dedicated project management capacity, concentration of resources and the provision of leadership. The flagship programmes are the Maputo Development Corridor, the Moloto Development Corridor, the tourism industry and the Water for All project.

The department of local government and Housing will be responsible for the Water for All flagship programme. This flagship is aimed at accelerating the eradication of the water infrastructure backlog affecting approximately 171 586 households, while also ensuring that we, at least, provide universal access to water by the year 2008. While rolling out this project, we will also be tapping into the expertise of our different sector departments and, of course, our social partners.

Minister, we fully understand that transforming local government is a long and arduous task, and we are in it for the long haul. We shall walk the long walk together.

In conclusion, hon Minister we are thankful for all the information that you are making available to us and for its distribution in our communities, especially this innovative publication called Voice. It is lightweight, not glossy but a heavyweight in terms of content and has all the necessary information to make every caring resident streetwise. I thank you. [Applause.]

Rre A L MOSEKI: Modulasetilo wa Ntlo e, Tona Sydney Mufamadi le Motlatsa- Tona, Mme Hangana, Tona ya Lefapha la Diporofense le Pusoselegae kwa Gauteng, badirimmogo mo Ntlong e, le baemedi ba Salga fa ba le teng, badiredi puso kwa Lefapheng la Diporofense le Pusoselegae, a re simololeng ka gore santlha, re le ANC, re ema tekanyetsokabo e nokeng, kwa ntle ga maparego.

Botlhokwa jwa tekanyetsokabo e ga bo na ka mokgwa o bo ka tlhalosiwang ka teng, ntle le gore re re maitlhomomagolo a yona ke go netefatsa gore dipusoselegae, batho ba ga rona mo metseng le mo ditoropong tse di farologaneng ba bona ditirelo tse di maleba, tse di nonofileng.

Jaanong fa go na le motho yo o nang le bothata ka tekanyetsokabo e e nang le maitlhomo a a ntseng jalo, go raya gore motho yoo, kgotsa lekoko leo le tla bo le na le bolwetse mo tlhaloganyong.

Botlhokwa ba tekanyetsokabo e ke go lebelela kwa morago go le gonnye gore Lefapha la Diporofense le Pusoselegae le tswa kae go fitlha fa re leng teng. Re tswa kwa ngwageng wa 1995 kwa phethogong tsa puso [transitional government], re fitlhele kwa 2000, re aga bommasepala, gompieno re mo go 2007, se re tshwanetseng go ikgantsa ka sona ke gore bommasepala ba re nang le bona ga se ba tlhaolele.

Bommasepala ba re nang le bona ke bommasepala ba ba emetseng batho ba rona botlhe mo Aforika Borwa. Bommasepala ba re nang le bona ke ba ba dirisang ditekanyetsokabo tse re di bonang, go samagana le dikgatlhego le go tokafatsa matshelo a batho ba ga rona. (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)

[Mr A L MOSEKI: Chairperson, Minister Sydney Mufamadi and the Deputy Minister, Ms Hangana, MEC for local government in Gauteng, colleagues in this House, Salga delegates present, and the officials of the Department of Provincial and Local Government, I would like to start by saying, we as the ANC support this Budget Vote without any reservations.

There is no other way of explaining the importance of this Budget Vote save to say that its main aim is to ensure that local government, our people in the rural areas and different urban areas receive the relevant effective services.

Having said that, if there is any other person or political party which does not support this type of Budget Vote based on these reasons, then that means that person or political party is suffering from a mental disorder.

The importance of this Budget Vote is to review the progress made by the Department of Provincial and Local Government to date. We regard 1995 as a year in which government was in transition, while in 2000 municipalities were established and what we are supposed to be proud of in 2007 is the existence of nonracial municipalities.

Our municipalities are representative structures of all the people of South Africa and they should use this budget to address the needs of the people in order to improve their lives.]

Having said that, we also need to go back a little bit …

… gore re re, fa lefapha le ntse le tswelela le dira phetogo eo, le go tlhabolola, le lemogile gore go na le dikgwetlho tse di sitisang karolo ya dipusoselegae le dipororense mabapi le thebolo ya ditirelo. (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)

[… to say that, when the department was dealing with these developments and improvements it realised that there are challenges that hinder progress with regard to service delivery in some parts of the local and provincial governments.]

The department came up with the strategic plan that is well known to all of us, Project Consolidate. The overall objective of this strategy was to ensure that the municipalities that lack capacity in all spheres are assisted to ensure effective service delivery.

Fa re lebelela kwa morago go sekaseka gore [Project Consolidate] porojeke- kgolagano e re fitlhisitse kae go fitlha jaanong, go totobetse gore mo dimmasepaleng di le 85 tse go simolotsweng ka tsona, mathata le dikgwetlho tse di neng di le teng di fokotsegile.

Go totobetse gore mo dimmasepaleng tse dingwe tse di neng di supilwe ke diporefense di na le dikgwetlho tsa thebolo ya ditirelo, seemo se fetogile, se tokafetse.

Ke tseela gore re tshwanetse iteye lefapha ka letsogo mo magetleng ka phitlhelelo e kalokalo ya go tokafatsa matshelo a batho ba ga rona.

Morago ga go sekaseka botlhokwa jo bo dirilweng ke porojeke-kgolagano fa lefapha le lebelela kwa pele, le re bontshitse gore sengwe gape ke maitlhomo a togamaano a dingwaga tse tlhano [Five-year strategic agenda], a a beetseng kwa pele mo lenaaneng dikgwetlho tsotlhe tse di supilweng fa go ntse go tswelelwa ka porojeke-kgolagano.

Re lebeletse ditlapele tseo re le komiti. Re ile kwa diporofenseng, re bone, re utlwile, Mme Oliphant. Re bone re utlwile - kwa diporofenseng.

Re kopane le lefapha mme re reeditse gore ba reng re be re tsaya se ba re bolelelang sona, se ba se bitsang maitlhomo togamaano a dingwaga di le tlhano tse di tlang, se se kaya gore strategic objectives for the next five years, re di tshwantsha le se re se boneng le se re se utlwileng.

Re lemogile gore rona jaaka komiti le lefapha re bona dilo ka go tshwana. Ke ka lebaka leo re reng maitlhomo a togamaano a dingwaga di le tlhano a na le tshegetso e e tletseng ya komiti e e ikgethileng ya dipusoselegae. (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)

[When we go back and look into what Project Consolidate has achieved so far, it is clear that in 85 initial municipalities, the problems and challenges which were encountered have decreased.

It is clear that the situation has improved and it is now better in other municipalities which were identified by the provinces as ones having challenges with service delivery.

I believe the department deserves a pat on the shoulder for that great achievement of improving the lives of our people. After the department had examined its way forward regarding the importance of Project Consolidate, it showed us that another thing at the top of the list is the Five-Year Strategic Agenda, which is identified by all the challenges in pursuit of Project Consolidate.

As a committee we first look at those basics. I would like to say to Ms Oliphant, we went to the provinces where we observed and had time to listen to people’s views.

We had a meeting with the department and we seriously considered their views about the strategic objectives in the next five years, and we compared them with what we had gathered.

We realise that there are serious differences between the committee and the department. That is the reason we say the Five-Year Strategic Agenda has the full support of the local government committee.]

Having said all these things, we also want to say it is very clear …

… gore dilo tse lefaphapa le di beileng kwa pele, ke dintlha tse di ntse di tlhagiswa gangwe le gape, go tswa mo puong ya pulo ya Palamente ya Moporesidente go simolola ka 2004-05 go fitlha jaanong.

Dingwe tsa dikgwetlho tse di ntseng di bonagala ke go aga bokgoni kwa dimmasepaleng. E seng fela kwa botsamaising, e seng bokgoni fela jwa bokgoni jo bo tlhaelang, gonne go le gantsi o fitlhela boradipolotiki ba thulana le badiredi puso kwa pusoselegaeng. Jaanong go tshwanetse go nna le bokgoni jo bo feletseng mo botsamaising le mo polotiking. (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)

[… that the things that are the department’s priorities, are the issues that have been raised now and again by the President in his state of the nation address speeches starting from 2004-05 until now.

One of the noticeable challenges is to instil skills in municipalities, and not just in management or in scarce skills, because in most cases you’ll find politicians fighting with the public servants at local government level. Therefore, there must be good skills in management and in politics.]

Once again, on behalf of my chairperson and the team, I would like to say that the select committee supports the department on these future plans that have been developed.

Having said that, I want to conclude …

… ka gore 16 Seetebosigo ke letsatsi le le botlhokwa thata mo nageng ya rona. Letsatsi le la 16 Seetebosigo le thusitse gore gompieno re be rena le baeteledipele ba ba eteletseng naga e pele, ba ba tlhagisitsweng ke nako tse di ntseng jalo.

Re rata go akgola baša bao, ba bangwe ba na le rona ka fa, ba bangwe ba rometswe kwa mafelong a a farologaneng. Re rata gape gore lefapha ka kemo nokeng ya rona le ba bangwe, le tla bona kemonokeng e e maleba gore re tlhabolole baša ba naga e, gore ba kgone go re etelela pele fa rona re setse re lapile. Ke a leboga, Modulasetilo. (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)

[ … by saying that June 16 is an important day in our country. This day contributed in producing current leaders of this country.

We would like to congratulate some of the youth who are with us today and some who are deployed in different places. We would also like to assure the department of our support and that of others who nurture the youth of this country so that they will be able to lead us when we retire. Thank you.]

The MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Madam Chairperson, hon members, on behalf of the Ministry and the department, allow me to thank all the hon members who participated in this policy debate, especially for the numerous observations and suggestions that they made in the course of their participation. A special word of thanks goes to the chairperson and members of the select committee for all the support that they have given to the department and the Ministry, and indeed for the work that they have done in the provinces as well as in their municipalities.

Ningadinwa nangomso. [Thanks for your efforts.]

Na matshelo zwi ḓi ralo. [Please do it again.]

The great deal of advice that was given here will indeed be followed up. The hon chairperson of the select committee drew our attention to the fact that participation by members of the executive in the business of this House is diminishing somewhat. I really wish to undertake that, as the Ministry, we will make sure that this matter is discussed in the MinMec meetings. We will communicate with our colleagues and make sure that the matter is also discussed in the President’s Co-ordinating Council so that the necessary remedial steps can be taken.

The hon Mr P C McKenzie informed the House that there is some confusion in some municipalities about the role that municipalities are expected to play in carrying out the disaster management function.

We will also be happy to get an indication as to which of our municipalities are confused about this, because the Disaster Management Act actually places district municipalities and metropolitan municipalities at the spearhead of this process of disaster prevention and disaster management. So, we need more information to share amongst ourselves so that we can take steps to correct this problem.

Also, if we start listening to one another and behaving like functional adults, and stop howling, we will be able to know what it is that we need to do together.

The hon Fielding suggested that what we did in Oudtsthoorn is something we need to do in all the municipalities. We have come up with the idea of mainstreaming what we are doing, in terms of Project Consolidate, which is something that was being done in targeted, select municipalities.

We need to make sure that we develop the capacity, particularly at provincial and national government levels - and even at district level – as well as provide ongoing support in order to make it unnecessary for interventions of the kind that are made in terms of section 139. We can prevent dysfunctionality by making sure that you are proactive in the provision of support.

I must say that many suggestions that were made belong, appropriately, to the White Paper processes that we spoke about. So, the participation of this House, particularly in the White Paper processes, that is both the review of local government White Paper and the introduction of the White Paper on provincial government, can’t be overemphasised. We also can’t overemphasise the need to improve the capacity of the House as an oversight body and in actively generating greater levels of mass participation in matters of government.

I was slightly taken aback that the hon Mr Mzizi’s input ended rather abruptly. After he had said that it was not enough to say that the national department only plays a policy role, he was not able, within the time allocated to him, to tell us who says that the department must only play a policy role. Certainly, it is not us; he was probably debating with someone who is not in this House.

As far as we know, we have, as the Department of Provincial and Local Government, actively sought to provide hands-on support to the municipalities. We have also gone out of our way to mobilise other sector departments, provincial departments and private sector organisations to come on board and play a role in helping to support municipalities.

In February 2005 there was a backlog of 262 000 buckets, and now, on 31 May, the buckets backlog stands at 105 000. All this happened with the active participation of the department and other departments, such as the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry.

So, it is clear that hon Mzizi will do himself a favour if, during the recess period, he pays a visit to the MEC for local government in Gauteng, because she can share this information with him. It’s important that, as a member of this esteemed House, you become a bit more informed than you seem to be. Thank you very much for all the support you have given to the department and the Ministry. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Thank you very much, hon Minister.

Ngifuna ukuthatha leli thuba ngibonge uNgqongqoshe nePhini lakhe kanye noMnyango, ngibonge uNgqongqoshe wesifundazwe saseGauteng kanye nezithunywa eziyisipesheli ngokubamba iqhaza kule nkulumompikiswano ekade ikhona.

Siyile Ndlu, sisazoqhubeka nePhini lakho Ngqongqoshe. Singajabula uma ningahlala nathi kodwa-ke kuzoya ngokuthi ithuba ninalo yini. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Minister, his Deputy as well as the department, the Gauteng MEC and the special delegates for taking part in the debate that we had.

Minister, this House will proceed with your Deputy. We would have liked you to stay with us, but it will depend on whether you have time or not.]

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT ON NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES PROVINCIAL WEEK OF 14 TO 18 MAY 2007

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: House Chairperson, Minister and Deputy Minister who have already departed, hon members and our special delegates, and in particular, the Speaker from the Northern Cape, I must apologise in advance for the wrongly spelt surname on the speakers’ list. [Interjections.]

Mr Watson, if you will behave and listen, you will hear that 40 years ago the departed hero of our people and a great son of Africa, Chief Albert John Mvumbi Luthuli said, and I quote:

As part of the efforts to liberate ourselves from apartheid and colonialism, both physically and mentally, we have to engage in the process of telling the truth about the history and conditions of our country, so that all our people, armed with this truth, can confidently face the challenges of this day and the next, with the hope that their lives are destined to be better.

It is this philosophy of one of the greatest leaders of our country and a gallant servant of our people that compels us to narrate the story of our people and the conditions that they are facing, without reprieve. Today, we convene to witness, yet again, the thorough entrenchment of this noble fallen leader of our people, and to say we must tell the story of our people and their needs without reprieve.

Indeed, as a Council that has made it our sole responsibility to give voice to the needs of our country’s provinces and its people, we can take pride that, since the establishment of our Council in 1997, we have established numerous innovative mechanisms to achieve all facets of our mandate, and to give life to the quest of leaders of our movement such as Chief Albert Luthuli, Moses Kotane, Moses Mabhida, Oliver Reginald Tambo, Dr A B Xuma, Walter Sisulu and many more.

Since its inception, the provincial week has proved to be a success in giving our Council information on the progress that our provinces and municipalities are making in delivering quality and efficient services to our people. The provincial week is one of the initiatives which provide a forum for the exchange and sharing of ideas by both permanent delegates to the NCOP and provinces on service delivery issues and challenges that are confronting the provinces in fulfilling their constitutional mandates to deliver quality and efficient services to the people.

Our Council embarked on yet another successful provincial week where all our permanent delegates, during the week of 14 to 18 May 2007, went to their respective provinces. The theme that we chose for that particular week was: Addressing challenges for effective and sustainable service delivery to our people.

We chose this theme out of the commitment that we made in our Programme 2009, which obligates us to broaden the scope of participation by provincial and local governments in shaping the national agenda. This theme was also intended to highlight challenges that our provinces and municipalities are facing in meeting their constitutional mandate, particularly in ensuring that the people of South Africa are given access to quality and efficient services.

If one glances through the provincial reports we received after that week, one will get the impression that many of our communities have access to basic services such as clean water, housing and electricity. We have also noted that a number of the projects are intended to put into practice our government’s commitment to ensure that by the end of this year the appalling remnant of the apartheid bucket system is eradicated.

We must also say that, while there are all the overall, general successes, there are still challenges. For instance, in the case of health care, we have seen, as we go through some of the provincial visits, that some of the clinics are not well resourced in terms of medical personnel, essential equipment and medicine, etc.

Touching on the issue of community safety, we have said our people must get involved in the fight against crime through the community police forums. However, these forums will remain in their offices if they are not provided with the necessary support from the communities which they are supposed to serve. Furthermore, it is also necessary that the relevant department provides the necessary resources to all those volunteers who are part of the fight against the scourge of crime.

We also want to call on the Department of Safety and Security to ensure that everyone who uses vehicles has a proper licence and uses them for their intended purposes. It is completely unacceptable that in one region, as we read in the report of Gauteng, the Government Garage receives 300 damaged vehicles per month. That translates into 3 600 damaged vehicles per year. [Interjections.]

During our visit to Mpumalanga, we also went to one police station at Vaalbank. In a matter of three months, three vehicles had been overturned. You can just imagine what would happen if the department keeps on functioning without ensuring that those vehicles are used by people with the necessary advanced and defensive driving skills. You cannot expect an inexperienced police officer to be chasing, for instance, criminals who have some years of driving experience, which are necessary in terms of dealing with hijacking, etc.

We also looked at the issue of access to water and electricity. Of course, hon Chairperson, you will also agree that this debate will, in a way, relate to some of the issues which have been raised here before. That is why we, as the Whippery, decided that it should coincide with the debate on the Department of Provincial and Local Government. Unfortunately, the Minister could not stay, as you requested, owing to other commitments.

Looking at the issue of access to water and electricity, we have noted that some of the municipalities have already started providing free basic services. However, when one looks at the rural municipalities, one sees that it is still quite a challenge to implement the indigent policies. It will require us, as permanent delegates in this House, to engage with the national departments which should serve as the backbone in institutional support regarding those areas of need.

The same will apply to access to housing. We have a situation where we want to put it categorically that we will not tolerate a situation such as the one that our delegates witnessed in areas such as Ndokwenza, Kenton-on-Sea and Alexandria housing projects in the Eastern Cape that have been stalled due to reasons such as noncompliance with agreed terms by developers, and in other instances developers leaving projects unfinished.

There are also allegations of corruption in the allocation of houses and shortages of funds in that regard. It is something that we need to take up and deal with constructively with the relevant departments. We need feedback that can result in the tangible delivery of goods to the affected communities, because we cannot afford a situation where we, as the NCOP, go to all those communities and have a hit-and-run kind of visit. That is why we decided to say, as we go to this upcoming provincial week, “We need to ensure that we follow up on those areas that we have visited, to ensure that there is progress as far as that is concerned.”

There is also one issue I want to raise, in terms of the national democratic revolution: We want to attain a nonracial democratic South Africa. However, we cannot have that nonracial democratic South Africa when people, in terms of spatial settlement, are still being housed in different areas.

We are calling upon our municipalities to embark upon very aggressive and vigorous programmes to ensure that municipalities spend whatever money is necessary to ensure that there is affordable land and that there is affordable block housing for people who have been settled far away, in the townships and the bundus so that they can live where they also sacrifice their labour. We cannot continue in perpetuity where people use buses and trains to go and deliver their labour in the CBDs, and, come sunset, they have to go back only to sleep in the townships and come back again to donate their labour in the CBDs, which are still not nonracial.

With regard to the preparations for the 2010 Fifa Soccer World Cup, I think the general idea that we get through our provincial delegation’s reports is that all the provinces are really moving ahead, as has also been confirmed by the President of Fifa, Sepp Blatter, who said, in very strong and emphatic words, that we, as a country, must not be discouraged, because those who are criticising us are actually jealous of the good work we are doing. According to Fifa there is no other alternative except South Africa, regarding 2010. [Interjections.] Thank you very much for saying, “Viva, South Africa,” hon Watson.

In conclusion, let me convey our sincere gratitude to the leaders of our provinces who continue to guide the preparation and execution of the provincial week. Many of them could not hold back their appreciation for the entrenchment of the provincial week as one of the important mechanisms for our Council to solicit provincial interest. Amongst these were the various Premiers, Speakers and MECs who requested that we look at expanding the provincial week visits from two a year to at least four.

The provincial week not only gave our hon members the opportunity to interact with their provincial leaders, but they also visited various communities in order to get first-hand information. We will encourage those provinces which did not have public meetings with the various communities to look into that aspect as we go to the next provincial week from 13 to 17 August.

We also need to take note that the African Peer Review Mechanism process, through the reports of eminent persons, has acknowledged that the work of our Council continues to light a candle of hope for our people that their needs and challenges will be represented in the national sphere. Indeed, our people find solace in the hope and knowledge that when our Council visits them, their situation can only change for the better.

Let us all roll up our sleeves to ensure that the conditions of our people and the challenges that they raised are addressed so that they can confidently face tomorrow in the hope that their lives are indeed destined to improve. Let us put our shoulders to the wheel and be hard at work to ensure that the critically important messages that our people in the provinces convey to us are heard, and that proper mechanisms are put in place to address their plight. I thank you. [Applause.]

Ms C SEOPOSENGWE (Northern Cape): Chairperson, hon Chief Whip, thanks for correcting my name. I am really humbled to be afforded the opportunity to stand at this podium this afternoon. [Laughter.]

It was in 1934 that Chairman Mao Tse-Tung wrote:

A dangerous tendency has shown itself of late among many of our personnel

• an unwillingness to share the joys and hardships of the masses, a concern for personal fame and gain. This is very bad. One way of overcoming it is to simplify our organisations in the course of our campaign to increase production and practise economy, and to transfer cadres to lower levels so that a considerable number will return to productive work.

As a legislature and a country, for the past 13 years we have embarked on a process to simplify our structures in order to increase the level of participation of our people, particularly women and rural communities, in the activities of the legislature towards building a better life for all. We have done this to guard against what I have mentioned above and also to give meaning to the spirit of June 26, when we declared that the people shall govern.

The NCOP provincial week in the Northern Cape and many other forums give us an opportunity as public representatives to engage directly with our leaders, the voters and taxpayers to test whether public participation mechanisms - which we implement to broaden public participation - are effective or not.

I think that it is only the ANC-led government which can have such visionary leadership of going to all corners of our country, all the time, to the extent that the opposition behaves like peacetime heroes in this House. [Laughter.] It’s our responsibility to simplify our work, mode of operation and institutions that we control. This will assist us to avoid the dangerous tendency that Chairman Mao identified in 1934, and will also build public confidence in the work and activities of the legislature and government.

The NCOP provincial week or any other public participation programme gives the NCOP and legislatures an opportunity to build a people’s government and listen to the people’s voice. That gives the committees an opportunity to engage in practical oversight and public participation. Reports that we generate from these activities will ensure executive accountability to an informed NCOP and legislature.

Through the NCOP provincial week in the Northern Cape, in particular Pampierstad and Kgalagadi – former North West areas - the delegation from the NCOP was afforded an opportunity to engage with a number of stakeholders, among others the Premier of the province, provincial leadership, local government and communities in those areas. The Premier of the Northern Cape informed the delegates that our province is rich in natural resources, yet its citizens are very poor. I think most of the riches go to somewhere in Gauteng and elsewhere in the country. The Premier informed the delegation that the provincial government was implementing projects to turn things around for the better. The projects are part of the provincial growth and development strategy.

The following projects have been identified, among others, to develop the economy of the province: the State Diamond Trader, which I think has been talked about and we are very happy that the Minister has made some announcements regarding that; the revitalisation of the railway line in the province; an iron-ore smelter factory - and I think this is also very popular with the “Gautengers”; and infrastructure development and capacity- building in municipalities.

The following challenges were identified by the provincial and local government regarding two municipalities in Kgalagadi, Phokwane and local communities. I’m happy that I’ve been listening to the presentation by the Minister but I think it is very important that we must raise some of these issues. Those challenges are: a shortage of office space to provide basic services; overcrowding in schools - some schools are in a very bad condition; the demarcation process, which has moved communities further away from service points; lack of transport for learners; the quality of RDP houses that is not up to standard; lack of ablution facilities; the housing backlog and privatisation of water.

The rest of the community of Pampierstad wants the demarcation board to revisit its decision, because there is so much serious tension. There is tension to the extent that you find people living in the same street but one side is in North West and the other side is in the Northern Cape. One has a situation where a house is in the Northern Cape but the toilet is in the North West. [Applause.]

These conditions are not unique to our province or our continent. The challenges identified by stakeholders in the process of engagement with the delegation from the NCOP and legislature are a direct challenge to us, as elected public representatives and lawmakers.

Chief Whip, next time I would ask for more minutes, because I think we are the most underprivileged province, as the Northern Cape. It is a challenge because we make and approve laws. Therefore, we must ensure that the laws we make benefit our people.

The delegation, in consultation with the provincial legislature, made a number of recommendations to deal with some of the areas of concern identified by the stakeholders and our own observation. The first one is the audit of all buildings belonging to the Department of Public Works, for example Phokwane Municipality. The second one is that the Department of Land Affairs needs to speed up the title deeds.

Thirdly, Eskom and Sedibeng Water Board must work closely with municipalities. We still have a very serious problem as far as Eskom is concerned and I think the MEC from Gauteng has alluded to that as well. Fourthly, the National Treasury must allocate funds immediately to revamp schools, and other requirements are captured in the provincial week report. These recommendations give us a clear mandate, which must be implemented without fear or favour.

We must decide what is going to be done with the recommendations. I think it’s within our means to ensure that those responsible for implementing these recommendations do so within a reasonable time. The Constitution empowers us to ensure that they implement these minimum recommendations. The implementation of these recommendations will take us closer to the achievement of the millennium goals.

I hope the consideration of this report by the NCOP will assist our movement forward to ensure that the hope for a better life becomes a reality. As the Speaker of the Northern Cape legislature, I would like to take this opportunity to appeal to the NCOP to give us the necessary support to ensure that the recommendations, as outlined in the report, become a reality.

The House can also assist us through lobbying of relevant stakeholders and ensuring that legislation passed through this House meets our needs. A special appeal is that the Minister of Defence is lobbied to build a demolition plant in the Northern Cape, which I think will improve the GDP contribution. I think hon Fielding wanted to raise that issue but regarding the manner in which he presented it, he really behaved like a real peacetime hero. [Interjections.]

Chairperson, it is fitting that the NCOP is taking the lead in public participation towards a better life, for it’s the legislature that is a custodian of our freedom and democracy, and it is the legislature that must hold the executive to account in order to change society for the better. It’s us that must ask the searching questions and ensure that government fulfils its mandate of delivery to the people to build the better life that we promised in 1994.

I remain confident that, with the support of the NCOP, the Northern Cape legislature will ensure that the flag of freedom as the torch of democracy flies higher and burns brighter over our province and our land. The implementation of the recommendations will build public confidence in the work of the legislature and members.

The NCOP provincial week has drawn citizens directly into policy debates. We have learnt, through public participation, that we have a vocal and questioning citizenry, supported by informed organs of civil society. I think the Chief Whip also alluded to the fact that we need to have more time to engage with our people, especially in terms of reporting back. We shouldn’t wait too long before we report back to the people we’ve been interacting with.

I also need to draw your attention to the problem of infrastructure in our areas such as Hartswater, Jan Kempdorp and Pampierstad. The infrastructure needs to be revamped but this is being hampered by limited financial resources.

People living on formalised sites were given proper sanitation facilities. However, some people are still using the bucket system, particularly where the municipalities are still busy formalising the areas. We are just emphasising this. I heard the Minister and the Deputy Minister saying they know exactly where the backlog is, but I’m just ensuring that I emphasise that aspect.

Although the Sedibeng Water Board supplies water to the community, the municipality remains the authority responsible for water. The municipality wants to take over the water provision function but it has a debt of R15 million owed to Sedibeng Water. Because of the debt, the municipality is unable to take over this function.

Eskom is the service provider in the area and they require that 80% of houses must be occupied before they supply electricity and, unfortunately, it’s the poorest of the poor who are affected in that regard. The community in Bonita Park will have electricity provided by the end of June, with the municipality being the sole service provider.

The North West province did not have a transport policy for learners who have to walk to schools. The Northern Cape has put out tenders for transporting learners from Kgalagadi, and this should be finalised soon. The hospital in the area is falling apart and, to a large extent, is nonoperational. There has been a mushrooming of low-cost housing next to Mothibistad but these houses are not up to standard. There are also no services in the area, for example there are no streets and no electricity supply.

I think these are the issues we wanted to raise before this House. Other concerns are that the nurses that serve in the hospital at Pampierstad … [Time expired.] Thank you very much. Long live the NCOP! [Applause.]

Mr T S RALANE: Chairperson, I am going to donate four minutes to the Speaker of the Northern Cape. As a delegation, we focused on bucket eradication in the Free State province and the mayors that we met are the following: acting Mayor of Mangaung; mayors of Matjhabeng, Lejweleputswa, Setsoto and Mantsopa. The entities that we interacted with are the following: the department of local government and housing, the department of water affairs and forestry, Bloem Water Board, Sedibeng Water Board and Eskom. We also visited some places where we were able to see developers at work.

We made the following observations: Firstly, we observed that there was a problem regarding unreliable projections. We think that that is a big problem. Already, the department is projecting that it needs R400 million to do all of this work and, as a delegation, we did raise the fact that we had reservations about that issue. It is something sucked out of their thumbs, and part of the problem is that some of the municipalities, whilst they need money now, have put some money in investment portfolios, which is a very big problem. This is why we are saying the projections are not realistic.

Secondly, there seemed to be confusion in terms of the definition and the areas of focus. Therefore, where would you start implementing bucket eradication? There is again a problem in terms of the projections because people are focusing on the wrong places and that is another area we picked up on, as an observation.

Here are the challenges: There was non-acceptance of what is called the VIP toilet system, and Mr Setona was very passionate about this one, just in terms of norms and standards. The second problem related to issues of popular participation, that is: How do municipalities talk to communities to the extent that they can be persuaded to accept these VIP toilets? The problem there is that you have areas which are separated by a road - on one side they have a water-borne sewerage system and on the other side they have VIPs. That is a problem that we picked up. The shortage of bulk water supply was also a problem that was identified. Unavailability of land for the construction of oxidation ponds also came up as an issue.

It was also mentioned that service providers were doing poor work. The shortage of building materials was identified. Natural causes - in other words, rock formations – were also identified as something creating problems. It looked like some of the projects were going to be finished much later. Also, it was becoming much more expensive, and the equipment had problems, in terms of excavations.

You also have lengthy decision-making processes by municipalities, which was a huge problem. Problems with contractors who stop working due to nonpayment were mentioned. The acquisition of land was again found to be problematic, owing to long and protracted environmental impact assessment processes.

There was also a delay in procurement processes by the municipalities; lack of capacity within the project management units; and lack of prioritisation of counter-funding. In other words, municipalities regard these things as national programmes and projects and therefore do not budget for and prioritise them. That was another big problem in the places we visited. Our own recommendation is that we must, as members of that delegation and the NCOP, constantly and consistently monitor and evaluate the work on an ongoing basis. Thank you very much for the attention. [Applause.]

Nk L F SHABALALA (KwaZulu-Natali): Sihlalo neNdlu ehloniphekile, ngifisa ukubonga le Ndlu ngokuthi ibe yiphela endlebeni ekulandeleni ukuthi isabiwomali sisebenza kahle, nokuthi izimali aziphindiselwa emuva zingasebenzile kodwa kube kusilelwe emuva nengqalasizinga.

Ngaphansi kohla lwezinjongo, udaba lwezinhlelo ezehlukene zeMinyango olubhekele ukulwisana nesifo seNgculazi luseyinselelo enkulu. IMinyango yakithi ayikabhukuli ngokwanele. Yilokho-ke esakuthola ngenkathi sixoxisana neMinyango. Mhlawumbe kubalulekile ukuthi sibheke ukuthi ibekelwa kumuphi uMnyango, noma kulowo obhekele ukulingana ngokobulili nokwabelana ngamandla. Okucacayo njengamanje ukuthi nguMnyango Wezempilo kuphela olandela kahle ezinhlelweni, ekubeni isabiwomali sikhona kuyo yonke iMinyango.

Ngizokhuluma-ke ikakhulukazi ngokwemibiko, ngokukahulumeni wasekhaya. Kuyacaca ukuthi amehlo omhlaba nomphakathi abheke udaba luka-2010 olungundabamlonyeni kulezi zinsuku. Lokho kwenza kubalululeke ukuthi uMnyango Wezohulumeni Bezifundazwe Nabasemakhaya ungenelele ekuhlelweni kokwakhiwa kwezinkundla ngesivinini esifanele, ukugwema ukwanda kwezindleko zokwakha lezi zinkundla. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.) [Ms L F SHABALALA (KwaZulu-Natal): Chairperson and the august House, I would like to thank this House for being a thorn in the flesh in ensuring that the budget is used appropriately and that money is not returned unused while we have backlogs in infrastructure development.

In the list of objectives, the issue of the different programmes of the department aimed at fighting Aids is still a big challenge. Our departments are not working hard enough. That is what we discovered when we had discussions with the departments. Maybe it is important to check which department has been allocated this money, or whether it has been allocated to the person who is in charge of gender equality and power-sharing. What is clear right now is that it is only the Department of Health that is on track, although all departments have budgets.

I will talk particularly about reports on local government. It is clear that the eyes of the world and the community are focused on the issue of 2010, which is dominating the news these days. This makes it important that the Department of Provincial and Local Government should intervene in the co-ordination of the building of stadiums according to schedule in order to avoid additional costs.]

We have a huge challenge in monitoring the delivery backlog, given the fact that 2,7 million people, as reported by the local government MEC, out of 10,2 million in our province, are without access to clean water and sanitation. The fact that the department reported that R3,2 billion is needed to meet this backlog completely demands radical and sharper oversight activities, against the contradictory delivery indications where you find that, at this crucial moment, other departments and local municipalities will underspend or appeal for roll-overs.

One of the shocking realities is the challenge facing KwaZulu-Natal, regarding an estimated 609 slums, with 440 of them being in Durban alone. This is an indication of how socioeconomic history will perpetually shape our future budgets. How Durban has sheltered and shielded migrant workers from rural areas is amazing, but it has financial constraints.

The response to and updates on guidelines on free basic electricity as developed and workshopped with municipalities is a great milestone. Equally, concerning free basic water, implementation by the municipalities should be through a uniform approach. For instance, there are municipalities that provide blanket free basic water. We should monitor how policies talk to each other, and in this instance I am talking about the indigent policy.

Capacity-building was a question that was a concern that came from permanent delegates and was posed to the local government. Capacity- building and the role of the department as raised by our delegates was very crucial. Some municipalities had failed to spend the municipal infrastructure grant and that reflects negatively on the department of local government. We all agreed that this has constitutional constraints, because the transaction is between the local municipalities but it does not prevent an interventionist approach by the provincial government.

On public hearings, it was a pleasure for the permanent delegates to be part of us as a team that went out to the remote rural areas. Regarding public participation with the people of Umsinga, this exercise is our political responsibility. It is not by grace. Meeting the youth and women as well as communities around Umsinga was a sad reminder of the historical past, how our socioeconomic fibre was destroyed by colonisation and the apartheid system. It served as a wake-up call to deal with the fact that, as our President once mentioned in the past, we are two nations.

Other youth in other sections of our communities are worried as to what is the best international university they can study at. The youth at Umsinga don’t know about this privilege. All they are crying for is a little thing

• they want to be afforded a recreation centre or just a simple sports facility. To be on the road in Umsinga was a strenuous drive, due to the topography of the area and the state of the tarred roads, which are full of potholes.

Basic services, in terms of water and electricity, are a strange, far- fetched reality in that community. Access to economic opportunities by the youth is a wild dream, for what they know is through reading the newspaper, for instance reading about the Umsobomvu Youth Fund. Home Affairs was one of the services not accessible to the communities. Two staff members were servicing the huge community of Umsinga. This works against our commitment to a better life.

In today’s Mercury - I had the privilege to get a newspaper when I was on the flight - there is a sad story about a young 24-year-old girl from Umzumbe who completed her Grade 12 in 1998 but, since that time, she has failed to get her ID. For two years, she has been taking transport up and down to the offices. The last straw was after she had applied for the second time. When she went back to collect the ID, she was told that it had been posted but nobody could tell her where it had been posted to.

She had to go around all the offices and nobody knew where her ID had been sent to. What she did was hang herself. She committed suicide and left her three-year-old daughter. She left a suicide note. She cited her shattered dream of being employable and her frustrations about being asked to produce an ID wherever she went.

I wish to thank the NCOP, including you Chairperson, for being the foot soldiers who are continuously committed to the contract we have with the people of South Africa, that we have a mandate to make their lives better and better. I thank you. [Applause.] Mr S MOTIMELE (Limpopo): Modulasetulo, rena ba Limpopo re leboga monyetlanyana wo o re filego wona gore le rena re lahlele la bošiwana. [Chairperson, we, the people of Limpopo, are grateful for the opportunity you have given us to participate in this debate.]

I must say from the onset that though my colleague, the hon Pilusa Motsoane, and I were not part of the delegation that visited the various projects in Limpopo, we assure you that that will not serve as an excuse not to talk to the issues that were raised in the report about the NCOP visits to the provinces that was made available to us.

We welcome the objectives as set down by the NCOP for visiting provinces, especially regarding the challenges facing the projects in the provinces. We believe that these challenges are the building blocks towards coming up with a successful service delivery programme, not only for Limpopo but also for all the provinces. The other objective is that of getting feedback from the communities as to whether service delivery is satisfactory.

As the ANC-led government, we say we seek to make life better for all. And if we are really serious about that, we must, from time to time, go to the constituencies and get feedback as to whether the lives of our people are indeed getting better and better.

We are, however, disturbed by the unavailability, for one reason or another, and the lack of co-operation from some of the stakeholders who were invited to the meetings of the NCOP. In the report, there is a suggestion that this report should be debated in the provincial legislature. We promise you that we will ensure that this report is debated in the provincial legislature, so that this question of unavailability for one reason or another and lack of co-operation should be nipped in the bud. [Applause.]

I must say that we commend the NCOP for visiting our border with Zimbabwe – Beit Bridge. It is very good for the NCOP to realise that Limpopo is a gateway to Africa. Beit Bridge is not the only gateway to Africa, there are also gateways to Botswana and Mozambique, and Polokwane International Airport is also a gateway to Africa.

This is important, because the matter of border posts impacts on international relations, national security and our provincial growth and development strategy. Inasmuch as we will ensure that there is co-operation and availability of people who are invited, we will make a follow-up on issues that were raised regarding that border visit.

We must also commend the strides that have been made by the Mogalakwena Municipality together with Potgietersrus Platinum Limited, especially on the issue of social responsibility. I’m sure we are all aware that social responsibility is one of the principles of corporate governance, according to the King II report. We are, however, disturbed.

In the report, we didn’t see any commitment from the mines as to their environmental management strategy, despite the fact that communities complained about pollution. Therefore, I want to say that in this era of climate change, the issue of pollution is very serious. I understand that in the recent G8 meetings, the biggest polluters, such as America, who were very much reluctant to be part of the Kyoto Protocol, changed their mind. So, the sooner we have the mines committing themselves to that kind of strategy, the better.

I think all other issues that were raised in the report are known. Therefore we should say to the NCOP: We are going to make a follow-up. We promise you full co-operation and you must keep up the good work, and come back again. Thank you very much, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Mr B J MKHALIPHI: Chairperson, hon Speaker of the Northern Cape legislature, as members of this august House, we were fortunate to embark on the provincial week programme almost immediately after our successful Intergovernmental Relations Summit. We were therefore presented with a very exciting opportunity to consolidate those gains and live up to our utterances made and resolutions taken at the summit. The Premier of Mpumalanga, hon T S P Makwetla, commended this Council for the insightful summit. He indicated that, although the NCOP has a limited number of members it has proved its ability to meet its constitutional mandate. He further stated that a member of the NA represents about 50 000 people whilst a member of the NCOP represents about 300 000 people.

We in Mpumalanga have also suggested that an ad hoc committee be established that will facilitate the participation of permanent delegates in the state of the nation address. With regard to governance issues, we further discussed that, in order to deepen interaction with our legislature, an ad hoc committee will be formed to correlate measures that need to be thrashed out to ensure a smooth working relationship between the permanent delegates and the legislature.

To start with, the Rules and Orders of the legislature will be reviewed to enhance active participation of permanent delegates in the activities of the legislature, as provided for in section 113 of the Constitution. Just to refresh our minds, that section of the Constitution allows members to participate in all activities of the legislature, except voting.

With regard to service delivery issues, we focus on Mpumalanga as being renowned for having the big five of the animal kingdom. We have them in abundance. However, the province now also has the “big five” flagship projects. These are the Maputo Development Corridor, the Moloto Corridor, tourism, heritage and Water for All. These flagship projects will enable Mpumalanga to accelerate the realisation of a better life for all by exploring and exploiting our natural resources and combine these with other resources to enhance economic activities and thereby defeat poverty.

On budgetary issues, the interaction with the MEC for local government and housing as well as with one municipality has indicated that some considerable work needs to be done if the current quality of our IDP is to inform allocation and guide development in our communities.

The abolition of the cross-boundary municipalities brought, in the Bohlabela district from Limpopo, with it infrastructural challenges. Although some adjustments, through the Division of Revenue Act, have been made, the legislature still feels that the Financial and Fiscal Commission should re-examine this matter so that provinces are adequately resourced for the additional responsibilities.

This issue was addressed extensively during the briefing for the Division of Revenue Bill. However, the province persists in calling for further assessment of the allocation. We also take note of the presentation by the Minister for Provincial and Local Government concerning this matter, this afternoon. With regard to educational matters, the two schools visited reflected challenges emanating from the legacy of apartheid. We also noted that the social partners of the school – the school governing body and the private sector – were not coming to the party as required. Regarding our effort to involve everybody in educational matters, there is a slogan in Mpumalanga that says: We are making the education enterprise everybody’s business!

In one of the schools there were complaints that it seemed there were regional offices that arranged workshops during school hours and therefore disrupted the functioning of the school. In one school we noted that it was an FET institution but there were no visible signs to that effect, either in their curriculum or in any infrastructure. In our report back to this school we will have to tell them how much of the billions allocated to the FET institutions will be received in that area.

We also visited a typical rural municipality, which had no real source of revenue. Though its councillors showed some commitment to their responsibilities, they also highlighted that some of the IDP reliability was very doubtful, as not all stakeholders participate during the IDP process, particularly the sector departments in the province. However, we were relieved to note that the MEC for local government and housing had said that no project would be undertaken in a municipality if that project did not appear in the IDP of the said municipality. We also visited the sports stadium that will host the Fifa 2010 Soccer World Cup. We were accompanied by the MEC for arts, culture and sport as well as the mayor. We were told that work was well ahead of schedule. Although the first challenge was that the site highlighted to us was a school, this challenge was well managed. I thank you, Chairperson.

Mr N D HENDRICKSE: Chairperson, the Speaker has gone, hon Members of Parliament, special delegates, ladies and gentlemen, I heard a very nice phrase here today, “peacetime heroes”. And I want to say to the peacetime comrades: Welcome. [Laughter.]

The signing of the 1996 Constitution established the NCOP to advocate provincial and local government issues to be placed on the national agenda. In order to elicit provincial interest and to ensure that provincial delegates to the NCOP are kept abreast with developments, the NCOP embarked upon programmes such as provincial week and Taking Parliament to the People.

The interaction between the NCOP and provincial legislatures is further entrenched through the principles of co-operative governance and intergovernmental relations. The provincial week provides a forum for the exchange and sharing of ideas on progress that has been made around service delivery and the challenges confronting the provinces in fulfilling their mandate.

We recall that Programme 2009 puts emphasis on provincial legislatures and municipalities to participate in national programmes of Parliament. It further states that the NCOP will be spending 70% of its time on oversight and the remaining 30% on considering legislation in order to strengthen the use and importance of the provincial week. I think all of us will have to keep our coffers all packed in order to get the 70% in; it’s going to be quite a challenge.

During provincial weeks, we in the Western Cape followed a framework that included meetings with provincial political leadership, interaction with the executive and departments, oversight visits and overall briefings and assessment meetings with provincial leadership to identify issues for intervention. I must say here that there wasn’t enough time. We didn’t meet all the MECs that we wanted to, but we covered a fair amount of ground.

Chairperson, allow me to introduce some important points to this august House on the report of the provincial week programme in the Western Cape. The Western Cape delegates met with the provincial political leadership, including the Speaker, Deputy Speaker, Chief Whip, secretary and deputy secretary to the legislature and discussed various issues relating to administrative, logistical and governance concerns to strengthen and advance the correct kind of link between the NCOP and the legislature. They found that there were very many gaps there. The delegation was invited to attend and participate – which was very interesting – in a provincial sitting, as the issues to be discussed were in line with the provincial week programme. The subject for discussion was a report on the investigation into the Oudtshoorn Municipality, in terms of section 106 of the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act.

We spoke about this before, and this was very interesting because we had a sitting before we went down to Oudtshoorn in situ. It was reported that when the provincial government invoked section 139 of the Constitution, it was not taken to the full extent in terms of the counts on which a council can be dissolved. Four of the councillors, one from each party represented in the Oudtshoorn Municipality, constitute an advisory panel to the appointed administrator by the name of Louis Scheepers.

We had a full meeting with the community and Mr Scheepers, where he gave us the whole layout of his programme. And I must say that, personally, I was very impressed with the man we have there.

The Minister for Provincial and Local Government endorsed the action of the legislature and the community of Oudtshoorn accepted the intervention, saying that it was the best thing that could have happened. Yes, this had to be done, and I’m sure that in many municipalities this kind of step is going to be necessary. However, if we do oversight properly, we can prevent this from happening in many of the municipalities.

President Thabo Mbeki, in his state of the nation address, emphasised that we would continue to respond to the challenges of municipalities and would undertake all necessary tasks, informed by the Five-Year Local Government Strategic Agenda, which includes hands-on assistance to municipalities by national and provincial structures.

Interesting oversight visits to some of the projects in the Western Cape took place, such as the visit to the port of Cape Town to assess stumbling blocks regarding ship repairs. We heard in one of the sittings here what the problems there are. The Minister promised that he would look into the boat-building sector.

Other instances of oversight include visits to the Oudtshoorn Municipality, which I’ve spoken about, and the Langenhoven Gymnasium, which is a school in Oudtshoorn, where apparent acts of racism occurred, according to media reports.

Racism is a big thing in the Western Cape. Those of you from other provinces should know that we battle with racism, which is still very big here. We have a lot of problems in so far as farm housing is concerned, where people are taken off their farms. We have problems with street people being collected, along with all their goods, and left destitute.

We have a lot of problems with racism here, which need to be addressed. Challenges to this august House are: firstly, how do we ensure that the executive arm of government avails its vigorous insight on the combined NCOP provincial week report? Secondly, what assessment mechanisms do we, as the NCOP, use to ensure that we constantly assess and monitor prevailing conditions as experienced during oversight visits?

Chairperson, with the provincial week programme, we once again proved our commitment to ensuring a hands-on approach to effect our mandate as the NCOP. To meet the challenges we face requires a developmental state that is people-orientated and is responsive to the needs of the citizens. Co- operative and partnership-based interventions are necessary, but always in an integrated way that is globally connected and well managed. We must not shy away from constructive criticism.

The provincial week theme, “Addressing challenges for effective and sustainable service delivery to our people”, is indeed a well-thought-out one.

In the couple of seconds I have left, I just want to highlight the fact that we celebrated Youth Week on June 16 2007. I just want to say that, in Cape Town, it was uninspiring. But I want to challenge that we need to do something for our heroes that fell here.

This week I was thinking of Ashley Kriel and the other young man who died in a hail of bullets in Cape Town in the late ‘80s. As we know, that was the last thrust of the struggle and a lot of it happened in Cape Town here. We don’t have a heroes’ acre or anything like that, that can remind our young people of what actually happened. Thank you, Ma’am. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr M MAMPUNYE (Eastern Cape): Chairperson, hon Deputy Chairperson, hon members, members of the public, friends and comrades …

… mandiqale ngezi zinto ndicinga ukuba zibalulekile, phambi kokuba ndize kwigalelo lam kule ngxoxo. Okokuqala, mandiyibulele into yokuba iBhunga leSizwe lamaPhondo lithe msinyane nje emva kokuba lityelele iphondo lethu, sibe sesiphinda sisiba lapha kwakhona ukuza kuxoxa ngezo zinto ngoku zisakhunjulwayo ngabantu. Akukho nto imbi njengokuba nisungule iprojekthi, emva koko nihlale ide ilibaleke nemiba ebibalulekile. Ndiyayibulela ke loo nto.

Okwesibini, mandiphinde nditsho ukuba thina siyiMpuma Koloni siyabulela ngokuba, ngexesha bekuxoxwa kuboniswana ngendlela emayingenwe ngayo iprojekthi le, iBhunga leSizwe lamaPhondo lisivumele ukuba silisasaze igqiza lethu. Ukuba uyabuqwalasela ubukhulu beMpuma Koloni, besingayi kukwazi ukuhamba umhlaba omde ukuba besenze ikomiti enye. Ngoko ke siye sancedwa kakhulu ke kukusasazwa kwamalungu ale komiti.

Mna ke ndingusihlalo weKomiti yoKhuselo noKhuseleko kwiphondo iMpuma Koloni. Siye sazama ukuba sifake iiprojekthi zeekomiti ezintlanu. Siye safaka eyezempilo, eyoorhulumente bamaphondo nabasekhaya, eyezezindlu, eyezemfundo kunye neyezokhuselo nokhuseleko. Loo nto ke yasinceda ukuba sifumane ingxelo yethu ivelelwe kwiinkalo ezininzi ezahlukeneyo. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[… let me take care of the things that I think are important first, before I can make my contribution to this debate. Firstly, let me thank the National Council of Provinces for the fact that shortly after it visited our province, we are gathered here again to discuss things whilst they are still fresh in our minds. There is nothing worse than starting a project, and then failing to work on it until the important reasons behind its formation become hazy. Therefore, I am grateful that this has not happened in this case.

Secondly, as the Eastern Cape province, we are also grateful because, at the time we were deliberating on how this project should be structured, the NCOP gave us permission to deploy our delegation around. If you consider the size of the Eastern Cape, we would not have covered much ground if we had set up only one committee. Therefore, deploying the members of the committee around helped a great deal. However, I am the chairperson of the safety and security committee in the Eastern Cape province. We tried to include projects of the following five committees: the health committee, local government of provinces, housing, education and safety and security. That helped us to get many different aspects of our report discussed.]

Now, coming to my input, the Chief Whip of the Council highlighted various aspects of the report, and I don’t want to delay proceedings here by going through some of the areas he has covered. However, those that have ATCs …

… bangakwazi ukuyifumana ingxelo yeMpuma Koloni … [… can have a look at the Eastern Cape report …]

… from page 1185 to page 1195.

Chairperson, it has been a pleasure and a privilege for me to be asked to come to this important House to add value to today’s debate. Allow me first to make some of the following points.

Section 42(4) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Act, Act 108 of 1996, provides that the NCOP represents the provinces in order to ensure that provincial interests are taken into account at national level.

The NCOP does this mainly by participating in the national legislative process and by providing national participation on matters affecting provinces. But allow me, Chair, to state that this House has the duty and responsibility of making sure that the role and the responsibilities of this House are taken seriously by the respective provinces.

From time to time we hear that there is something that is not going well in terms of how provinces relate to this House. There are some misunderstandings in relation to the mandate of the NCOP. I think that might be caused by the fact that there are at times weak linkages between the legislatures and the NCOP delegates, which I think need to be strengthened.

Events such as the NCOP provincial week should be programmed quarterly, because I believe that can also add value to the work of the NCOP so that the institution can be more visible and not be forgotten. However, I do understand the limitations in terms of resources, but, ideally, I would have loved to have the programme quarterly.

As a contribution to this debate, I can say without any fear of contradiction that it was my first experience of embarking on a project that cuts across committee boundaries. As committees, we normally work in silos in terms of visiting our respective projects, but this time we worked as a team. I admire your initiative because it has also shaped our way of working in the Eastern Cape.

Regarding the issue of disasters, Chairperson, the national Minister talked about a matter that was raised here, on the question of confusion around disaster management and the role of districts and metros.

Yes, the national Minister explained the matter in very simple terms, but to us in the provinces, when you talk about a district in terms of disaster management, districts take too long to address the immediate problems of those affected by that disaster. For instance, as a province we are still sitting with backlogs from the late 90s, 2002, 2004 and 2006. Funding is a problem. Our people on the ground lose hope that they will ever be assisted. So we are faced with that problem and I want it to be noted.

We have also been told that there are Cuban specialists that have been deployed to fast-track the process but I’m not sure whether that is the right intervention strategy. We have our own indigenous knowledge that we can use, and our people can assist government with the assessments, since some of the houses that were damaged were indigenous houses.

Umzekelo, xa wonakalelwe ngurontabile ofulelwe ngengca, umntu ovela eCuba akayi kuliqonda lula ixabiso laloo ndlu. Kanti ke kumntu owakhayo ozaziyo iimeko zendawo kungalula ukwenza oko, ze ngoko kube lula ukuba loo ndlu ilungiswe. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[For example, when your grass-thatched rondavel has been damaged, a person from Cuba will not easily understand the value of that house. However, for a builder who is familiar with local conditions it would be easy to do this and to have the house fixed.]

But now the government has opted to import Cuban specialists to come and do that, whereas we have our own people. I don’t believe that is the right strategy.

There is a matter that I always smuggle in whenever I get an opportunity, and we pushed for it to be considered during the national conference of the ANC. This is the question of the non-funding of community police forums. We don’t understand the fact that the SA National Police Commissioner is an accounting officer of the SAPS and we don’t believe that this is the right move. We managed to talk about that in our provincial general council. We hope that the policy conference will do something about this.

The clustering of police stations brings about a lot of confusion as community members would go to the nearest police station to report a matter. With regard to demarcation, one speaker said that you find your house this side and your toilet on the other side. So our communities are experiencing the same problem. When they go to report a matter to the police, they are told that their village does not fall under the jurisdiction of that particular police station. Even if the police at that station do take down the statement, for the case to be heard they have to travel long distances to reach that court, and that is a problem. [Time expired.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): I will now call upon hon F Mazibuko to address the House. [Interjections.] Order please!

Ms N F MAZIBUKO: Sihlalo, ngisho noma ubungalibizanga igama lami ngiyazi ukuthi kulandela mina. Umsizi wakho akabhekanga uhla lwabazokhuluma ngakho- ke akazi ukuthi obani abakhulumayo. [Chairperson, even if you did not call my name I know that I am next in line. Your assistant did not look at the list of speakers. Therefore, he does not know the order of speakers. ]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): I called your name, hon member.

Nk N F MAZIBUKO: Angizwanga, Sihlalo. Ngiyabonga Sihlalo ukuthi nami ngiphefumule kuyo le nkulumompikiswano emayelana nesonto esasiphiwe kulo ithuba lokuthi nathi sikwazi ukuya kohlangana namalungu ethu esifundazweni, ukuze nathi sikwazi ukuthola ukuthi yiziphi izinselelo abhekene nazo.

Kafushane nje, uma ngingayichaza iGauteng ukuthi iyini, ngingathi iyisifundazwe esikhulu kunazo zonke lapha eNingizimu Afrika. Yingakho kuthiwa iyi-smart province. Uma uyibheka laphaya ebalazweni ubona sengathi incane, kodwa nginitshela ukuthi bathi phecelezi “It’s impregnated with people.”

Igama elithi “Gauteng” uma silibhekisisa ukuthi lisuka kuphi, liyigama lesiSuthu elichaza ukuthi yizwe lapho uthola igolide khona. Phela Sihlalo uyazi ukuthi lapho kukwanyama kayipheli kodwa kuphela amazinyo endoda futhi kulapho kuguga othandayo. Yingakho-ke sithi iGauteng iyisifundazwe esihlakaniphe kunazo zonke izifundazwe, idlula neKwaZulu-Natali.

Isonto esasivakashele ngalo izifundazwe lalingomhla we-14 kuNhlaba kuya mhla we-18 kuNhlaba. Ngenzela ukuthi labo abangazange bathole ithuba lokufunda Uhla Lwezimemezelo, Lokwethuliwe Nemibiko Yamakomidi bakwazi ukuzifundela ngokwabo.

Ngokwesifundazwe, zintathu izinhlelo ababhekene nazo, ngokulandela inkulumo kaMongameli ngenkathi evula iPhalamende ngenyanga kaNhlolanja. Lezo zinhlelo ngezempilo, ezokuphepha kanye nezemfundo. Yingakho-ke osukwini lokuqala sahlangana nekomidi lezempilo kanye nelezokuphepha. Ngenkathi sibonisana nawo lawa makomidi sathola ukuthi anezinselelo eziningi, ngoba nani niyazi ukuthi esifundazweni saseGauteng bonke abantu bacabanga ukuthi sinamathuba amaningi. Uye uthole-ke ukuthi bagcina sebeswele nendawo yokuhlala, baswele nezikole lapho izingane zabo zingafunda khona.

Kepha-ke saqinisekisa sonke ukuthi ziningi izidingo okufanele zibhekelelwe ukuze abantu bathole impilo engcono, nokuthi nakulo ikomidi ongqongqoshe bazoqinisekisa ukuba khona kwalokhu esikubiza ngesiNgisi sithi i- accountability.

Saba nethuba lokuhlangana nongqongqoshe wezempilo uMnu Hlongwa – hhayi ungqongqoshe wezifo; sahlanganga futhi nowezokuphepha, uMnu Cachalia. Basendlalela izinhlelo ezibalulekile abanazo, ikakhulukazi ungqongqoshe wezempilo wasitshela ukuthi singabowuthela usawoti ekudleni ngaphambi kokubuza ukuthi ngabe usawoti usutheliwe yini. Wasitshela nokuthi ziningi izifo ezibangela o-high blood pressure nanokuthi yingani sikhuluphele. Nani malungu niyazi ukuthi mina yini engicabangayo ngale ndaba yokukhuluphala.

UNgqongqoshe Wezokuphepha yena wasitshela ngohlelo olubizwa nge-Take charge, crime stops with me. Kulolu hlelo bahlongoza ukuthi umphakathi ubambe iqhaza kwezokuphepha, nokubhekisisa ukuthi ngabe iningi lamacala yilawo enzeka emakhaya yini, esiwabiza phecelezi social crimes - uma abesilisa bedakiwe bashaya abesifazane babenze ama-punching bags - kanye nokunukubeza ngokocansi.

Sabamba futhi umhlangano namalungu ezigungu zokuphepha. Yilapho sezwa khona ngeqhaza labo ekuqinisekiseni ukuthi wonke umuntu uyalibamba iqhaza kwezokuphepha, ekuzivikeleni kotsotsi nasebugebengwini nje obudlangile. Sezwa-ke nangokusweleka kwengqalasizinda kwezinye iziteshi zamaphoyisa, okuyinto ebangela ukuthi ama-CPF angabonakali ukuthi yini umsebenzi awenzayo.

Ngezinye izinsuku savakashela izibhedlela ezinjengoHelen Joseph lapho sathola khona inselelo mayelana nokuthi abanayo imali eyanele ukuze bakwazi ukufeza izidingo zabo. Nezinye izinhlelo bazendlala phambi kwethu. Ngeke ngizibale lapha ngoba iningi lalaba abavela kulezi zifundazwe ezincanyana bazosuke bathume abazala babo beze ngale eGoli ukuze bazokwelashwa khona.

Saphinde savakashela naseReiger Park, Dawn Park nasesibhedlela esibizwa nge- O R Tambo Memorial. Safike sathola abantu abakhulelwe eDawn Park. Basho ukuthi, cha, abasawakhi amawolintshi, yingakho namhlanje kubathatha isikhathi ngaphambi kokuthi babe nalokhu esikubiza ngokuthi ama-labour pains. Maqondana nesifo seNgculazi, sathola ukuthi sebevule umtholampilo laphaya e-O R Tambo Memorial lapho benikeza khona amakhambi kanti futhi banezingadi abatshala kuzona imifino.

Savakashela nesiteshi samaphoyisa eKagiso lapho sathola khona ukuthi amaphoyisa ayengenawo amahhovisi enele. Amaphoyisa amane noma amahlanu ayesebenzela nje ehhovisini elincane. Nakhona sathola ukuthi izinqola azenele. Bese nizwile-ke njengoba uSoswebhu Omkhulu eseshilo ukuthi iningi lalezi zinqola silithole eChamdor ngenxa yobudedengu bokuthi abazishayeli kahle abashayeli. Abanawo futhi nalo mshini obizwa nge-Morphotec - ngisho lo mshini okuthathwa ngawo iminwe yezigebengu ukuze kuhlolwe ukuthi ngabe lezo zigebengu azibenzanga yini ubugebengu kwezinye izindawo.

Saphinde savakashela indawo lapho kukhandwa khona izinqola zamaphoyisa eChamdor. Safica isimo esethusayo kakhulu lapho ngoba sathola ukuthi kusekhona abantu “abasenobasi” abangabaphathi kahle ngenxa yokuthi bona abafani nabo ngokwebala. Babebasebenzisa nemisebenzi okungafanele bayisebenze. Yize abanye babengomakhenika abakufundele ngokugcwele kodwa babenziwa abafana bengadi khona lapho eChamdor. Kunezinqola-ke esazithola zihlezi lapho. Baphawula bathi babesalindele izinsimbi zazo.

Siye savumelana-ke, njengesincomo, ukuthi ikomiti lezempilo nelezokuphepha kufuneka abuye alandelele kamuva ukuze abheke ukuthi, kulezi zincomo esizibekile embikweni, ngabe yini abangayenza, nokuthi kungathuthukiswa kanjani.

Ngalawo amafishane, Sihlalo, singamalungu aseGauteng, esifundazweni sabahlakaniphile kakhulu, besicela ukuthi iNdlu yamukele lo mbiko. Siyabonga. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Ms N F MAZIBUKO: I did not hear, Chairperson. Thank you, Chairperson, for allowing me to participate in this debate which is about the week in which we had the opportunity of going to the provinces to meet our members and find out what challenges they were facing.

In short, if I were to define what Gauteng is, I would say that it is the biggest province here in South Africa. That is why it is known as the smart province. When one looks at it on the map one thinks that it is small in size, but I am telling you that, as they say, it is impregnated with people.

When we look at the origin of the word “Gauteng” we find that it is a Sesotho word meaning land where gold is found. You know, Chairperson, that there is plenty of meat there and that no one can finish it - one can eat until one’s teeth fall out. It is also a place where only those who want to grow old, do grow old. That is why we say Gauteng is the smartest of all the provinces. It even exceeds KwaZulu-Natal.

We visited the provinces during the week of 14 to 18 May. I am doing this for the benefit of those who have not yet read the Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports.

According to the reports from the provinces, they are concentrating on three programmes, following the President’s state of the nation address, at the opening of Parliament in February. Those programmes are health, safety and security and education. That is why we met, on the first day, with the committees on health and safety and security. When we were in discussions with these committees we found that they had many challenges because, as you all know, in Gauteng province, everyone thinks that we have many opportunities. You then find that they end up having no place to stay and no schools for their children to attend.

But we all ascertained that there were many services which needed to be considered so that people can lead better lives and that, in the committee itself, the provincial ministers will have to ensure that there is accountability.

We had an opportunity to meet with the provincial MEC for health, hon Hlongwa – not the “MEC for diseases”. We also met with the MEC for safety and security, hon Cachalia. They informed us of the important programmes they have. The provincial MEC for health insisted that we should not add salt to food before enquiring whether it has already been added. He also informed us about many illnesses that lead to high blood pressure, and also told us why we are so obese. Hon members, you know what I think about this issue of obesity.

The provincial minister of safety and security informed us of the programme called Take Charge, Crime Stops With Me. With this programme they want the public to play a role in safety and security, and to determine whether the majority of cases are domestic or not, that is social crimes – where drunken males beat up females, making them punch bags, as well as sexual abuse.

We also held a meeting with members of the community policing forums. That is where we heard about the role they play in ensuring that everybody plays a role in safety and security, in protecting oneself from thugs and the general hooliganism that is rife these days. We also heard about the lack of infrastructure at some of the police stations, which result in the role of the CPFs not being known.

We also visited hospitals such as the Helen Joseph hospital where we found that they have the challenge of not having enough funds to enable them to meet their needs. They informed us of other programmes too. I won’t mention them here because most of those who come from the smaller provinces will send their cousins to Johannesburg to be treated there.

We also visited Reiger Park, Dawn Park and the hospital known as O R Tambo Memorial. We met pregnant women at Dawn Park. They told us that they did not “collect oranges” anymore, which is why nowadays it takes time for them to have labour pains. As for HIV/Aids, we found that a clinic has been opened in O R Tambo Memorial where ARVs are provided. There are also vegetable gardens.

We also visited a police station in Kagiso where we found that the police did not have enough offices. Four or five police officers were working in a small office. We also found that there were insufficient vehicles. You have already heard from the Chief Whip that we found most of these vehicles in Chamdor because of the negligence of the drivers. They do not drive well. They do not even have the machine known as the Morphotek – I mean the machine which is used to take fingerprints from criminals to check whether they were not involved in other crimes.

We also visited Chamdor, a place where police vehicles are repaired. We found a shocking situation there because there were people who still have “baases” who do not treat them well because they do not look like them colour-wise. They also force them to do jobs that they are not supposed to do. Although some of them are qualified mechanics, they are working as “garden boys” in Chamdor. We found abandoned vehicles there. We were told that they were waiting for spare parts.

We then agreed as per the proposal that the select committee on health and the committee on safety and security should make a follow up on the proposals that are contained in the report, to check on what they can do about them and what development projects can be implemented.

With these few words, Chairperson, as the members of the Gauteng Provincial Legislature, the province with the smartest people, we ask the House to accept this report. We thank you. [Applause.]]

Mr Z S KOLWENI: Thank you, Chairperson for allowing me to give this brief update on the North West provincial visit. I must say that the delegation visited some provincial and local government centres of service delivery. The aim was to evaluate the effectiveness in terms of service delivery to the communities and also to determine if there is quality spending on the budgets allocated to government departments.

In driving this programme, our delegates did so in a good spirit of co- operative governance through collaborating with their provincial legislature counterparts and Salga members in the province.

Of course, the week of 14 to 18 May was never enough to cover the whole province, though the programme had to be developed in such a manner that this oversight exercise would avoid concentrating on one area or one constituency, since this kind of exercise normally takes place once or twice a year.

I must indicate to this House that when we were developing the previous programme, our delegation strongly felt that we should make a follow-up on previous visits - the rounds that we did in August 2006. We really did so; because we then visited schools, clinics, local government offices, police stations and magistrate courts where we observed a number of challenges.

Therefore, what we did on the first day is that we called all the stakeholders under one roof, which was the provincial conference room. What I can inform this House is that we observed great improvements. In fact, they were very impressed with the work done by the NCOP.

We were also impressed - I must say, as a permanent delegate - with the fact that when we got to the province we discovered that our programme was integrated with the provincial schedule. That was evident in the sense that it gave ample time for our counterparts to participate unhindered.

During the first day we had to interact with our Chief Whip, the Speaker’s Office and the chairperson. I must indicate that there was a situation where the Speaker’s Office and the Chief Whip had to engage us regarding a constitutional provision that gives effect to the appointment of the Premiers as heads of delegation. They had some reservations on that, in the sense that they felt the Speaker should be the leader of a delegation, because the Speaker is the person who is always in charge of the day-to-day running of the legislature. Therefore, they felt it didn’t make sense that the Premier would have to lead the provincial delegation. However, it seems that they are going to challenge that in the correct manner. I must also indicate that in the afternoon of the same day we met the Premier of the province, who hosted us over a nice dinner meeting with some of the MECs. In that meeting there was some sort of workshop that took place about the provincial growth and development strategy and it took some time.

The delegation also visited the executive Mayor of the city of Matlosana, which used to be known as Klerksdorp. The executive mayor then took us through the housing project that had been successful but was suspended along the way because the council suspected some corrupt activities. However, there was a commission that was put in place to investigate that. That commission gave rise to some litigation processes which are still unfolding.

We were then taken to view those houses and members appreciated the standard of the material that was used which compared well with the material used in loan houses though there were some workmanship defects. The delegation recommended that those units that had already been completed be speedily allocated to needy people, because there were some units that were finished but not utilised, which made them vulnerable to being damaged at any time.

We also visited the district health department where we were also taken through a number of presentations and they indicated some challenges to us. The main challenge was that some of the health centres … [Time expired.] We propose that our report be accepted. Thank you. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Chair, I am quite confident in my mind that this is one of the longest weeks of the year and, indeed, one of the longest debates amongst those that we have had.

I think that the debate on the provincial week of the National Council of Provinces is taking place against very important and critical developments in our country. Firstly, it is taking place at a time when the ruling party, the premier liberation movement of our people, is readying itself for the national policy conference and getting ready for the national conference in December, where decisions on the next five years will be taken.

Secondly, it is also taking place during the mid-term of our third democratic parliament. Therefore it is fitting, as we are assembled here this afternoon, to debate critical issues that arise in our provinces. We don’t only reflect on the issues, but we connect the debate to answering certain fundamental questions which have permeated the debate today in one form or another. One hon member, a special delegate from the Eastern Cape, put it quite succinctly: the confusion about the role of the NCOP in relation to the role of provinces.

When we debate these issues, we must always try to connect this to how we give sense and meaning, and add flesh to the bone, in order to define the NCOP in relation to a wide variety of issues that are confronting our democracy, broadly. When we do that, we must not forget one thing: That there is nowhere in the whole world where we have an animal or a structure like the NCOP. Nowhere!

For that matter, we must acknowledge and salute the class of 1996; the first stewards of this House under the leadership of Comrade Terror Lekota and Comrade Bulelani Ngcuka, followed by Comrade Naledi Pandor and Comrade Joyce Kgwadi, who laid a sound basis for the rules and procedures that define what this House is, in relation to the National Assembly and the provinces.

I think everything that we have done, including our own conceptualisation of this strategic intervention through a provincial week, was an attempt to take the particular work that was initiated by these comrades forward, because we must not pretend to be constitutional experts. We are not and we must not attempt to be the Constitutional Court. I think that even these advocates in front of the presiding officer here know that they are no experts. The only final arbiter on constitutional matters in this country is the Constitutional Court, and nobody else. Therefore Karl Marx was correct when he said:

The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways; the point is to change it.

I think that this institution has been established with a particular focus. Central to that focus, I want to refer to one of the best advocates that we have in this country, who also happens to be a member of the national executive committee of the ANC, Comrade Matthews Phosa. He put it in simple layman’s language, as one of the people who negotiated this Constitution, by saying that the political rationale behind the establishment of the NCOP as opposed to the Senate … It’s a pity that one hon comrade, who is here, said that the NCOP is an Upper House. I don’t agree. We don’t have such a thing as an Upper House. This is not a Senate, but a unique House. He said that the political rationale was to ensure that the voices of the grass- roots communities, which cannot access the legislature of the Eastern Cape in Bisho, must be heard in the national Parliament.

The voices of the grass-roots communities in the Free State, in Qwaqwa, which cannot afford to reach Cape Town - the city of Parliament - and which cannot reach Bloemfontein - the city of the legislature and Thabo Mofutsanyane - must be heard here. That was the fundamental political rationale.

So, in our attempt to adhere to what the Constitution says, we are going to miss the point if we don’t understand the philosophical and political rationale that informs that particular constitutional formulation. I think that is quite fundamental.

Through this provincial week, I think all the delegates that have spoken here, have had their say. Comrade Faith Mazibuko and my comrade here from the North West have spoken about their visits to O R Tambo Memorial Hospital. They have touched on various centres and areas within their own communities. We come here to say that these are the perspectives and the experiences that come from particular communities.

So, I am saying that this provincial week is an attempt to consolidate and strengthen our contribution as this generation, because at the end of the day, individually and collectively or whether you would have retired, your child or grandchild will ask you what it is that you did to make the House relevant when you tell them that you were once a member of the NCOP.

Hon Watson, it won’t help to say that this House is not doing this or that. The key question is: What is it that you are doing to make it relevant? I think that is quite fundamental. I agree with the comrades in that spirit, including the Chief Whip who said that we cannot be static regarding the manner in which we are conducting our business. We cannot continue to be ritualistic and do things because we are used to doing them that way. From time to time we must review this provincial week and how we are conducting it. We must measure its impact against the new emerging challenges.

The late president of the ANC, Comrade Oliver Tambo, said that a test of any revolutionary parliament does not lie in any other thing but its ability to inspire the confidence of the masses of the people. In my own view, I think the key test for all our programmes, in particular this provincial week programme, centres on communities.

I have not yet heard from the nine delegations whether they met the communities. Comrade Ralane, you remember we met the officials - we were all in the boardroom, but we did not meet mama Dlamini out there who is affected by the provision of VIP toilets in her street when the other street next to it has waterborne sewerage system toilets. We have not yet met that person on the street and reported on what she says here.

We have also not met communities in order to hear about their own experiences and the challenges they are facing. And we need to know to what extent they appreciate some of the interventions and programmes that are initiated by our government on the ground. [Interjections.] The Northern Cape is chaotic, Chairperson. [Interjections.] This is not a municipal council meeting; this is a national Parliament addressing millions of people. The point I am making is that, if you have done something like that, no one from the Northern Cape has mentioned it. The Speaker from the Northern Cape has not mentioned it and we are not aware of that. We are saying that we may want to learn from you - how you have dealt with the matter. We are also saying that it should not be only about the Northern Cape; it should be the strategic vision and approach of the Council. I think it is fundamental that we move from that particular position.

Let me conclude by responding to a few issues that were raised. I don’t know whether I heard my comrade from the Eastern Cape properly, but culture is not just a boundary-bound concept, both in terms of concept and practice. It is a universal concept. I don’t know whether it is correct to make an assumption that a Cuban cannot understand how a mud house or a thatched-roof house can be fixed when it has been damaged. I think that is unscientific, my fellow comrades.

If you understand the principle of internationalism which is embraced by the ANC; and as we are going towards the second or third decade after the battle of Cuito Cuanavale, we should understand that internationalism teaches us one thing: It teaches us that regarding some of the problems we are facing in this country, where we lack skills, we can be assisted by other nations, in solidarity.

There are certain things which we don’t have the capacity to do that Indians can do to advance our own national programme and the national development agenda. It’s not about whether they understand the township lifestyle or not.

I think we have the best engineers in the whole world. I’m also saying that even Cuba is acclaimed for producing the greatest number of doctors and engineers in the world. I might not have understood my fellow comrades but we will have to engage.

Lastly, I want to caution my comrades from the ANC that we must not be lulled by some voices from the opposition. When they want to use this House as a theatre to launch a right-wing offensive against the ANC, they say it is their democratic right to do so. One may have observed that there is a member here who has been very consistent in attacking the ANC in every debate, even when the debate does not warrant an attack.

But when the ANC responds they say: No, this House! The ANC is not the NCOP and the NCOP is not the ANC but a neutral House. I am saying we must not be lulled. We have a political revolutionary mandate to defend our theory, our ideology and our philosophy. We are not going to spare any effort on that.

It’s a pity that the hon member is not in the House because I would have wanted to quote some of the things that he has said which are not factual. He said that the National Youth Commission is an employment agency for the young people of the ANC. That is a distortion of information. I don’t know where he was when Jabu Mbalula spent the better part of his life in prison fighting for this freedom before 1994 - sacrificing even his education.

I don’t know where the hon member was when Hlengiwe “Mahlengi” Bhengu, a young woman who was the first chairperson of the National Youth Commission, spent the better part of her life at the University of Durban-Westville, before 1994, mobilising, organising and fighting to create this democratic Parliament that we are today. So, you cannot make a statement in this House and say that this youth commission has been established to create employment for the needy – meaning it’s a welfare package, that patronises the youth of the ANC. That statement was made by a member here.

I am saying that we must continue as the ANC to respond to those statements and we must also remind some of the members who are making these statements about their own past, in the last 20 years. When certain developments were unfolding in this country, like when June 16 unfolded in 1976, we must ask them what they were doing.

I want to thank you, hon Watson, for your sincerity and your boldness. Don’t shy away from that. If anything happens, the ANC is the political home of all the people of South Africa. Don’t be intimidated by the right wing within your party regarding what you have said in this Chamber. Chairperson, on that note, I thank you very much. [Applause.] [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Thank you, hon members. That concludes the debate. I would like to thank - in particular - the special delegates from various provinces for coming to participate in this debate.

Debate concluded.

Report noted.

The Council adjourned at 17:51. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Introduction of Bills

 (1)    Select Committee on Social Services
     (a)     Traditional Health Practitioners Bill [B 20 – 2007] [See
         Resolutions passed by National Council of Provinces (Minutes
         of Proceedings of National Council of Provinces, 8 June 2007,
         p 1040) and by National Assembly (Minutes of Proceedings of
         National Assembly, 14 June 2007, p 1095)].


          Introduction in the National Council of Provinces (proposed
          sec 76(2)) and referral to the Select Committee on Social
          Services of the National Council of Provinces, as well as
          referral to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for
          classification in terms of Joint Rule 160, on 18 June 2007.
          In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the
          classification of the Bill may be submitted to the JTM within
          three parliamentary working days.


     (b)     Choice on Termination of Pregnancy Amendment Bill [B 21 –
         2007] [See Resolutions passed by National Council of Provinces
         (Minutes of Proceedings of National Council of Provinces, 8
         June 2007, p 1040) and by National Assembly (Minutes of
         Proceedings of National Assembly, 14 June 2007, p 1095)].


          Introduction in the National Council of Provinces (proposed
          sec 76(2)) and referral to the Select Committee on Social
          Services of the National Council of Provinces, as well as
          referral to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for
          classification in terms of Joint Rule 160, on 18 June 2007.


          In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the
          classification of the Bill may be submitted to the JTM within
          three parliamentary working days.

National Council of Provinces

The Chairperson

1. Message from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces in respect of Bill passed and transmitted

(1)     Bill passed by National Assembly on 20 June 2007 and
     transmitted for concurrence:


     (a)     Public Service Amendment Bill [B 31B – 2006] (National
          Assembly – sec 76).
          The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on Local
          Government and Administration of the National Council of
          Provinces.

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Council of Provinces

1. Report of the Select Committee on Finance on the Pension Funds Amendment Bill [B 11B– 2007] (Reprint) (National Assembly – sec 75), dated 19 June 2007:

   The Select Committee on Finance, having considered and examined the Pension Funds Amendment Bill [B 11B – 2007(Reprint)] (National Assembly – sec 75), referred to it, and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a Section 75 Bill, reports the Bill without amendments.

2. Report of the Select Committee on Finance on the Taxation Laws Amendment Bill [B 18 – 2007] (National Assembly sec 77), dated 19 June 2007:

   The Select Committee on Finance, having considered and examined the Taxation Laws Amendment Bill [B 18 – 2007] (National Assembly – sec 77), referred to it, and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a Money Bill, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

3. Report of the Select Committee on Finance on the Taxation Laws Second Amendment Bill [B 19 – 2007] (National Assembly sec 75), dated 19 June 2007:

   The Select Committee on Finance, having considered and examined the Taxation Laws Second Amendment Bill [B 19 – 2007] (National Assembly – sec 75), referred to it, and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a Section 75 Bill, reports the Bill without amendments.

4. Report of the Select Committee on Finance on the Appropriation Bill [B 2 – 2007] (National Assembly – sec 77), dated 20 June 2007:

   The Select Committee on Finance, having considered the subject of the Appropriation Bill [B 2 – 2007] (National Assembly – sec 77), referred to it, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

5. Report of the Select Committee on Labour and Public Enterprises on the Protocol on Policy and Regulatory Framework for NEPAD (New Partnership for Africa’s Development) ICT Broadband Infrastructure Network for Eastern and Southern Africa, dated 20 June 2007:

   The Select Committee on Labour and Public Enterprises, having considered the Protocol on Policy and Regulatory Framework for NEPAD (New Partnership for Africa’s Development) ICT Broadband Infrastructure Network for Eastern and Southern Africa, referred to it, recommends that the Council, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Protocol.

Report to be considered.