TUESDAY, 21 AUGUST 2007 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
                                ____

The Council met at 14:06.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

                  WELCOMING OF VISITORS FROM LONDON

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, ladies and gentlemen, just before we start, I want to acknowledge, on the gallery, visitors from London who are visiting an hon member of this House, Mr Watson. I would request them to stand up so that we can see them. Thank you very much. [Applause.] You are welcome in our beautiful country, South Africa and in the second House

• not the Upper House - the National Council of Provinces. Welcome to South Africa. Thank you very much.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I have been informed that there will be no notices of motion today, and that we will go straight to the questions, as this day is dedicated to questions to the Ministers. Thank you all Ministers and Deputy Ministers who are here today.
  

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY

                         PEACE AND SECURITY
                              Cluster 1

MINISTERS:

                     Control of crime situation

1. Kgoshi M L Mokoena (ANC) asked the Minister of Safety and Security:

   (1) Whether crime is under control; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (2) whether he will make a statement on the matter? CO14E

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson and good afternoon to all members of this House. I haven’t seen you for quite some time. I want to preface my answer to the question asked by Kgoshi Mokoena by reiterating what I have said on numerous occasions in the past that crime levels in South Africa are unacceptably high. However, having said that, I do want to indicate that if anyone has been following the crime trends in this country over the past five years, it will be seen that there has been a steady decrease in most types of crime in South Africa. And this has to do with the fact that there are a number of new elements that we have brought into the fighting of crime. In fact, we want to change policing so that at the end we would be able to deal effectively with crime.

One of the things that we are busy with at this time as part and parcel of our ethos of policing is community policing. It is where we are mobilising communities so that they can participate in crime prevention and combating through the supply of information on a regular basis to the law enforcement agencies, particularly members of the SA Police Service.

Thank you very much.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, let me thank the Minister for the reply. Arising from that, and based on the reports and briefing that the select committee received from our provincial commissioners that out of 100% cases reported in all our police stations, our police officers are now able to trace and arrest all those unwanted elements, is there any reason for any person to panic that South Africa is not worth visiting? Thank you, Chairperson.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Thank you, hon member. You know that crime is an international problem. It is not only South Africa that is experiencing crime. There is crime all over the world. This is a consequence of, among other things, globalisation and of course development, because these criminals follow development and where resources are available, they conduct their criminal activities.

But there is no reason why people would want to stay away from South Africa on the basis that there is crime in South Africa. We have been talking to quite a number of people engaging in these various issues. There is a lot of improvement in respect to what the police are doing. There is a change in our policing ethos also and we are relying, to a very large extent, in our criminal investigations, on high technology, which has helped us to make various kinds of breakthroughs.

The best element that we have brought in, as I have said in my initial response, is the fact there is a lot of co-operation between us and the people as we investigate these crimes. In fact, in all the areas where there is a solid partnership between the communities and the police, crime levels have gone down. This could be seen, among other places, in areas for instance like Jabavu, Alexandra in Johannesburg, Sebokeng, Maitland here in the Western Cape and the variety of other places where there is this partnership between the communities and the police. Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr S SHICEKA: Chairperson, well, I want to add my voice in thanking the Minister for his eloquent response. However, I want to raise three issues. The first one is that in the latest statistics, we have seen that there is a decline in quite a range of categories of crime. However, we have seen the increase in the violent nature of crime, particularly when we talk about car-hijacking and aggravated robbery - housebreaking and so on - which has been very violent. Has the department done any study to check what are the reasons for this crime to be so violent now, and why there is this increase in the nature of the violence of this crime?

The second thing linked to this - and what the Minister has talked about – is intelligence. In terms of resources around budgeting, are you putting more resources into intelligence-driven policies so that we are able to prevent it before it happens?

The last point: Across the country, is there any follow-up or are people following the example of Gauteng where there is a high mobilisation of communities in terms of patrolling and other activities so that the community sees that it is not only government that must deal with crime but also the people themselves must stand up and be counted in dealing with crime? Is that being replicated across the country in other areas? Thank you very much, Chairperson. The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Indeed, what characterises South African crime is a very high degree of violence. We have appointed a private entity to do a study for us to try to explain why that is the case. An initial report has already been submitted to us. The final report is going to be available by the end of this year and we will approach the Cabinet at the beginning of next year. We, in Cabinet, will decide how then we could get our population as a whole to participate in the discussion of that report.

Of course, there are two elements to the issue of violent crime in South Africa. The first one is the sorts of crimes the hon member has referred to. Violence is evident in cases of armed robbery including cash-in-transit heists, burglaries where firearms are used, and so on.

But, the second element is social crime where crimes happen behind closed doors between people who know one another at home in respect of domestic violence, and in areas where people come together to enjoy themselves. That type of violent crime constitutes 80% of this violent crime that the hon member is talking about. Hopefully, on the basis of the study that is being done, we will know what the reasons are with regard to these matters and find answers as to how, therefore, we will deal with them.

Of course, we do deploy intelligence on many of the investigations that we do. In fact, it is intelligence that warns us beforehand when there will be problems. It is that intelligence in fact that has saved South Africans on a number of occasions with respect to what could have easily been a bloodbath, and some of those matters include, for instance, many armed robberies. We have acted in accordance with the intelligence that we have received - armed robberies of various kinds, including cash-in-transit heists. We have been able to arrest people before they actually commit those sorts of crimes.

But, apart from that, our intelligence structures in South Africa are highly regarded internationally because of the work that we have been able to do with regard to getting information and forewarning law enforcement agencies of some of the threats that we have to face as a country.

I have already indicated, hon member, that there are quite a number of areas in South Africa where the example that you have referred to, in Gauteng, is being emulated in terms of people working together with the police to ensure that, indeed, we deal with crime. One of them is a very small place in Mpumalanga. People who come from Mpumalanga will tell you about Badplaas. They know about it. It is a small community.

In Badplaas, people are working together with the police and they have reduced crime quite drastically. It is not the only place. It is just that I do not have the exhaustive list in front of me at this time. But, it is those various partnerships between the police and the communities that have been responsible for some of the drastic reductions in crime in South Africa. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

Mr A WATSON: Chairperson, over the weekend I drove up Kloof Road to take my visitors up Signal Hill to view the beautiful sight of Cape Town that can only be seen from the mountain in Cape Town. To my horror, I found the police barrier stopping the traffic going up to Signal Hill. I then said that it was no problem and so we turned around and went up the cable way. We found that the road to the cable way, right at the circle, was also closed and there was a policeman there; and I asked him as to why there were these barrier walls and why they were working on the roads. He said that they closed off the roads every night because of the crime that happened on the mountains.

And just yesterday, I read about people who were walking on the mountain over the weekend. They were actually confronted by muggers and robbed. Some of them even got hurt. I know prevention of crime is one of the most important ways to combat crime, but if we are preventing and stopping people from visiting the heritage sites in our country, we can also wave tourism goodbye.

Are we really avoiding crime when we put up barriers for tourists not to get into the areas where crime is at a peak during certain times? I hope you can enlighten me.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Well, as you correctly say, one of the things we do to deal with crime is preventing crime from happening. I don’t know what would have caused the situation where actually tourists were prevented from visiting a tourist spot. I am unable to respond with respect to that.

But the fact of the matter is that crime prevention will also entail a number of measures that we use in order for us to prevent crime. But it can’t be measures which actually interfere with free movement by law- abiding citizens of the country. I don’t know, as I say, what could have caused that particular type of deployment.

What I can guess which might be the reason is that - and the police will not tell you this - at times there is someone that they are looking for who is dangerous at that time, and when that happens, there will be roadblocks that are put up. There will be the kinds of barricades you are talking about. But I am simply speculating because I don’t know what may have caused this. Thank you very much.

Mr B J MKHALIPHI: Chair, I just want to raise two issues to the Minister as to whether an analysis has been done in respect of the crime that we are talking about. Firstly, is this as a result of social improvement broadly in the country or social decline? Secondly, is this as a result of the success of our reforms that we see in the country? Victims are becoming much more aware of their rights and, therefore, are reporting criminal activities. But then, on the other hand, you have got issues that relate to the negative agenda of the media. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: There are two things that usually happen with respect to crime. The first one is the fact that, in a situation like ours where you have democracy and, therefore, a population that is in transition, you will have people who exploit new democratic spaces that arise to do all manner of wrong things, including crime.

We have become liberalised on a number of fronts, which therefore allows people to travel wherever they want in South Africa, and since people have that freedom of movement, freedom of association, you cannot be stopping people and asking them what they are doing anywhere at any time.

Countries in transition like ours unfortunately do also create those kinds of spaces for criminals to exploit. But secondly, there comes a time when people who are affected by any kind of negative elements do respond. And I am happy that South Africans, at least a large number of South Africans, are responding to the issue of crime not simply by always criticising law enforcement officers or criticising the system that is in place. They have decided to participate in crime prevention and combating, as I have already said before. When that happens, there must be change, and a change for the better. Fortunately we have this new system of policing; firstly, in terms of the training we give to people. We create expectations with respect to the individual and police persons, that, even management at the level of the police is changing, to follow the new trends that are emerging with respect to crime prevention and combating.

And the totality of all of those matters has indeed impacted positively on what we are trying to do to create conditions for safety and security for everyone in South Africa. Thank you.

           Growth in, and regulation of security industry

1. Mr J W le Roux (DA) asked the Minister of Safety and Security:

   (1) To what factors can the enormous growth in the security industry be attributed;

   (2) whether the Government will further regulate the security industry; if not, why not; if so, (a) to what degree and (b) how will such regulation affect the industry’s further growth and effectiveness? CO253E The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: The favourable economic growth in the country has created space for a growing list of companies that are starting new businesses. The economic climate has influenced expansion that has seen the emergence of new businesses and industries. The private security industry has taken advantage of that climate.

The department is indeed in a process of reviewing the Private Security Industry Regulation Act of 2002, inter alia to provide for minimum standards in respect of cash or valuables in transit and regulations for recruitment, training and deployment of security service providers outside the borders of the Republic. The industry will gain tremendously from the contemplated legislative streamlining. Given that, there will be a better system of recruitment that will enable the service providers a better chance of assessing new recruits and where maximum attention will be given to training. Thank you.

Mr J W LE ROUX: Chairperson, thank you, Mr Minister, for your comprehensive reply. It did strike me, however, Mr Minister, that you did not mention the fact that the public might not have enough faith in the Police Service and therefore they turn to other ways of protecting themselves. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: I am very guarded in what I say and I am careful not to want to appropriate to my sentiments things that relate to certain people and say it is the public because the South African public is more than 40 million people. That’s our public. And therefore, we cannot say that those more than 40 million people have lost faith in the police because they actually rely on the police for the provision of safety and security.

What is happening is that there are people who have the necessary wherewithal to engage private security companies and they have a right to do that. The police is also being deployed even in areas where the private security industry is operational. In other words it does not mean that where, for instance, they work, let’s say in Sandton, there is no policing there. A lot of policing is happening there.

Apart from this, there is also a relationship which is now emerging between the South African Police Service and the private security industry so that we can align our tasks properly to give even further protection to our people. Thank you.

Mr D A WORTH: Chairperson, I would like to ask the Minister whether any private security firms are still protecting police stations as well as the magistrate courts and what is the reason for that? Thanks, Chair.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Yes, there are many police stations that are protected by the private security industry and the reason for this is the fact that the police that we do have, are not security guards. They are police and their responsibility is to guard the lives of our people. And that being so, we do not deploy members who are trained as the police to simply stand and guard our buildings.

That kind of work is being done by the private security industry and if the question then arises whether we are not, therefore, using a lot of resources for this, the answer is simple. Even with the resources that we are using it is better to get people who come from the private security industry to look after our buildings, while we go into the streets and confront crime and criminals. Thank you.

Constitutional amendment to increase number of permanent delegates in NCOP

1. Kgoshi M L Mokoena (ANC) asked the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:

   Whether the Government will consider introducing amendments to the Constitution to increase the number of permanent delegates in the National Council of Provinces; if not, why not; if so, when? C0323E

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Thank you, hon member, for the question. My department has not received any request from any person or institution to amend the Constitution to increase the number of permanent delegates in the NCOP. Any suggested amendments to the Constitution together with the necessary motivation, if it were to be submitted to our Ministry, would be considered and dealt with in accordance with the usual procedures and provisions in the Constitution. I am also not aware anyway in government itself that the matter is being raised and discussed. So, the answer to your question is one big: “No”. [Laughter.]

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Thank you, Chairperson. Let me thank the ever-ready and dynamic Deputy Minister for the response. Chair, based on the sentiments echoed by our President when addressing our summit, this House is unique and wonderful. This was supported by the Minister of Defence who said that this House is magnificent. To put the cherry on top, it was echoed by the Minister of Finance who said that he wondered what the situation would be if this House had at least 90 members. He also said that it was about time for this institution to consider increasing the number of permanent delegates, based on the calculated and magnificent work done by this House, I submit.

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: May I add to the illustrious list that you have already mentioned and say what a magnificent institution this is, with most dynamic members that it has, with an excellent work programme and with particularly good performance results. [Laughter.] I echo all of them and if at any stage such proposal were to be put forward, you would probably find me in front of the queue supporting the further capacity-building and possibilities of doing better and most stupendous work by this institution. Thank you very much. [Laughter.]

Meetings held by China and France with African countries; and mediation mission by South Africa to Ivory Coast

1. Mr J M Sibiya (ANC) asked the Minister of Foreign Affairs:

   (1) Of what advantage to Africa are the meetings that China and France have held with African countries;

   (2) whether, with reference to the request to South Africa, through the President, at the previous summit of the African Union (AU) at Addis Ababa to return to the Ivory Coast on a mediation mission, South Africa is likely to return there; if not, why not; if so, what implications will this have on our role as a nonpermanent member of the UN Security Council? C0324E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr A G H PAHAD): Thank you, Chairperson. The two meetings referred to form part of our strategic objective to consolidate South-South relations and not only south relations. The Forum on China-Africa Co-operation – Focac - Summit in Beijing was very important and successful. China and Africa adopted a sector-specific Beijing Platform for Action which, amongst other decisions, committed China to double development assistance to Africa, to provide preferential credit of US $5 billion to Africa from the USA Development Fund, to open up a Chinese market to products from Africa by removing tariffs, to assist with the training of African professionals through scholarships and the building of schools and technology centres in Africa and to assist with the fight against infectious diseases as well as the development of African health infrastructure.

It is important to note that our relations with the People’s Republic of China will be based in the context of the New Partnership for Africa’s Development – Nepad - programme. This is significant because it will mean that our relation to China will not be determined by the resources put into any country, but will be determined by our programmes that we as Africans have identified.

The Africa-France Forum is a structure that initially brought together France and Francophone African countries. This was later extended to include non-French speaking African countries. It is a forum to discuss political, economic and social issues. African countries have used this forum to raise issues such as underdevelopment, migration, the failure to successfully conclude the Doha round of the WTO talks, African conflicts and postconflict reconstruction.

The last forum meeting adopted a policy declaration aimed at ensuring the implementation of innovative financing mechanisms to raise funds for development, as well as mechanisms to assist African countries achieve our Millennium Development Goals.

The challenge for Africa is to ensure that the decisions taken at the Africa-France Forum are generously implemented. We are experiencing the situation in which many developed countries, including the G8, continue to make commitments, but do not show the political will to implement these commitments when it comes to the practical reality.

With regard to the third part of the question, Burkina Faso is a current mediator as mandated by the Economic Community of West African States – Ecowas - which was endorsed by the African Union and the United Nations.

Therefore, there is no need for South Africa to return to the mediation. However, South Africa will continue to support the efforts of the present mediator. Bilaterally, South Africa is continuing to build stronger relations with the government and the people of Côte d’Ivoire.

The previous mediation role of President Mbeki has been expressly acknowledged by the United Nations. President Laurent Gbagbo and Prime Minister Soro and President Mbeki were invited to attend the Peace Flame ceremony in Bouake, in Côte d’Ivoire on 30 July 2007. During the ceremony attended by both President Gbagbo and Prime Minister Soro, weapons were destroyed, marking the symbolic start of disarmament and opening up the processes for a political solution. A brigade of the DRC’s new army, the 37 Battalion, was named after President Mbeki.

I will not be part of the mediation. That will not have any implications on our role as a nonpermanent member of the UN Security Council. South Africa will continue to use its role as a nonpermanent member of the UN Security Council to promote lasting peace stability and prosperity in Côte d’Ivoire.

Mr M J SIBIYA: Thank you very much, Comrade Chairperson. I would like to express a high sense of gratitude for the answer given by the Deputy Foreign Minister. I still have two little questions. The first one is concerning the first answer. Can the answer given also be the same in the case of the last talks Africa had with South Korea; in other words can we give more or less the same background explanation to those talks or are they a little bit different? Secondly, as we all know that Africa is artificially zoned into the so- called Anglophone, Lusophone, Francophone and other areas, how able are we as Africans to put up a united front in such meetings so that we are able to extract as much as possible from the advantages created by that platform? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr A G H Pahad): As I have indicated, the two meetings where the question was asked were part of a much broader strategic objective. There is a new Africa - Asia Strategic Partnership; there is a Japanese Ticad programme; there is the Indian Ocean Rim; there is the Zone of Peace and Co-operation of the South Atlantic; and there is our own relationship as a special partnership with the European Union. These are all part of the broader processes. Most significantly, there is the India-Brazil-South Africa grouping that attempts to achieve what I have said is our strategic objectives of developing South-South relations on the basis of which we will attempt to get better relations with the North.

What I must say is that our relations with the North have gone through a good period and a bad period, but the reality is that our relations with the North in terms of generality has not been one way - it is mutually beneficial and it has been in terms that have not been in the interest at all times of the South. I believe that we are are getting to a situation were we can achieve this.

I think the artificial division of Africa is a reality we have to live with. I think Africa, through the establishment of the African Union and all its relevant institutions, including the Pan-African Parliament, is increasingly beginning to deal with the rest of the world in a way that is united and indeed in a way that is driven by agendas that we, as Africans, have adopted. I do believe that the times of the past have changed and for the first time in history Africa is able to interact with powerful forces both in the North and, indeed, in the South on the basis of an African agenda in the interests of Africa.

Mr S SHICEKA: Chairperson, on the basis of the good response of the Deputy Minister, particularly around the area of unequal results of engagement and discussions between the North and the South, can he then tell us whether there are any benefits that have been visible, that have been seen to be working in relation to the South–South relationship, particularly Brazil and India? Can we say, then, that it is bringing positive outcomes in ensuring that we have a balanced world and also that the outcomes of engagement are actually beneficial to the developing countries? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Yes, I do believe that countries of the South are now reaching a situation where many countries are no longer underdeveloped and countries like India and Brazil are predicted to become the strongest economic players by the year 2020. I also believe that our interaction with countries of the South, whether it is politically through the Non-Aligned Movement to the G77, plus China economic grouping, is beneficial for South Africa generally. We are now able to use these interactions to increase our economic relations in all its facets: trade, investment, tourism, and exchange of technological expertise.

In this respect the Ibsa – the India Brazil South Africa grouping is the most significant, because these are three of the most powerful countries on three continents who are known to be the powerhouses in our three continents. Brazil and India, as I said, will be the top economic players by 2020. I think South Africa will be the strongest economic power in Africa.

Both India and Brazil have advantages that South Africa do not have, and on the other hand, South Africa has advantages in other fields. I believe the India-Brazil–South Africa relationship - and the summit that will be held in South Africa this year - has opened up tremendous possibilities on exchange of technology increasing our trade relations, investments in each other’s countries and I believe South Africa is gaining tremendously from our interaction with India and Brazil to learn from their experiences and utilise their relatively higher development in the interest of South Africa and Africa.

Prosecution of certain persons who did not apply for or receive amnesty from Truth and Reconciliation Commission

1. Mr M A Mzizi (IFP) asked the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:

   (1) In light of the Government’s decision to prosecute certain persons who did not apply for or receive amnesty from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC), what kind of evidence will be led in criminal proceedings against such persons in a court of law;

   (2) whether the state will use new evidence; if not, why not;

   3) whether any new witnesses will be called to testify; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?

   C01675E

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: May I thank the hon member for the question. Just two preliminary points: Firstly, I imagine your question has been somewhat overtaken by events in court recently where certain people pleaded guilty and, secondly, that the specifics of the question obviously is not of such a nature that one can come here and give the information to Parliament.

This refers to questions such as: What kind of evidence would be led in these criminal proceedings? Will it be new evidence? Will there be new witnesses? That information of course is the preserve of the prosecuting authority and one would not be able to make that information available to Parliament. But I have taken the question in its general sense and tried to answer it more generally, and I do so as follows: The decision to prosecute certain members who did not apply for or receive amnesty from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission has been made by the National Directorate of Public Prosecutions.

As the hon member knows, the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, is constitutionally enjoined to conduct such prosecutions as part of its prosecutorial role. To this end the prosecution policy was developed and tabled in Parliament and it includes guidelines on how to deal with matters arising from the conflicts of the past. The prosecutorial policy deals in detail with the evidence required in order to decide whether or not to prosecute. I would advise the hon member to familiarise himself once again with this policy, which had been previously served before Parliament and before this House. It is important for the hon member to be aware that in all prosecutions the evidence that is required is the one that establishes the commission of an offence beyond reasonable doubt. There is therefore no distinction between the evidence required for ordinary matters and for those arising from the conflicts of the past.

Secondly, I am advised that the NPA will use all relevant evidence as required in terms of the normal standards in the courts. This also includes the requirement that evidence be relevant and credible.

Thirdly, the evidence referred to in the second point above will, if available, be obtained from any witness in possession thereof. Thank you.

Mr M A MZIZI: Thank you, Chairperson and thank you, Deputy Minister. Unfortunately, Deputy Minister, the proceedings that had recently taken place in court was just probably a bonus to me, because I had already prefaced the question long before that. Deputy Minister, yes, you are correct in saying that, but my dilemma was that all these cases that refer to the past atrocities are as a result of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission hearings, and therefore there were no formal complaints that were put forward that these were the things that happened to me by any individual, except that certain people had done these or certain officials had done these. Now the dilemma is that in the absence of plea-bargaining, what then would be the procedure, because in most cases in court if there are no witnesses, those cases become a fruitless exercise? It would not go on. If there are no plea-bargainings it would mean that even if those people are brought to court there would be no evidence probably to link them. It would be hearsay evidence. That is the dilemma that one seeks advice on. What would be the procedure if there is no plea-bargaining? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Well, plea- bargaining only takes place, of course as you are aware, when there is sufficient evidence to actually bring a case. There should be a reason for plea-bargain.

I think we must remember that the TRC had numerous tasks. One of the tasks it had was to look at every person that applied for amnesty before it and it, could grant amnesty, and once it had done that, it removed all criminal liability from such a person.

The Act also went further and said that in those cases where people have not applied or where they have been refused amnesty, that information had to be passed on to the authorities.

You must also remember - and I see that newspapers get this wrong all the time – that the TRC Act was very specific, and that is: All information and evidence that was placed before the TRC may not be used later in a court of law. So, if you want to prosecute someone from an event that arose or because they didn’t get amnesty in the TRC you have to do it on the basis of completely separate evidence that you have gained in terms of putting that person on trail. And I imagine this is what happened in the present trial. I am not privy to what happened in the present trial, but I imagine there was a case where there was a complaint, where there were people that said well we are prepared to plead guilty on this matter and then they dealt with the issue accordingly. In all other matters, as in such a case, you would have to find evidence that was given independently of the information that was given to the TRC, because that may not be used in a court of law. That evidence must at least prove a prima facie case against that person before the prosecuting authorities were to institute proceedings. That is very clear in the prosecuting policy, that you would not proceed with any case if there isn’t that prima facie evidence and so on. So, it is difficult to give you specific answers because one would have to look at the separate situations. But as I am aware of it at this stage, only one matter has arisen from those events of the past and that is the one that took place in court recently. Thank you.

Plans to build proper structures for Bedwang and Cyferskuil police stations

1. Mr A L Moseki (ANC) asked the Minister of Safety and Security:

   (1) Whether his department has a plan in place to build proper structures for the (a) Bedwang and (b) Cyferskuil police stations in the North West during this Medium-term Expenditure Framework cycle; if so, when is construction work likely to commence; if not,

   2) whether the building of two police stations will be included in the infrastructure plan; if not, why not?

     CO1795E
   

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, I hope I am going to get the pronunciation of this particular station right.

Ek is van Cradock afkomstig en ons praat daar Afrikaans. [I come from Cradock where we do speak Afrikaans.]

And to me this looks like an Afrikaans name: Bedwang. Am I right? Bedwang police station and living quarters are priority number two on the planned maintenance list which contains the repair and renovation list for the North West province and will be addressed during the 2008-09 book year. Cyferskuil police station is currently in the planning phase for total repair and renovation. The actual work will of course commence in the near future. Neither of the two stations were prioritised for capital works, therefore no new infrastructure will be provided. Thank you.

Threat posed by illegal immigrants, in light of 2010 World Cup Soccer
                             tournament

1. Mr D A Worth (DA) asked the Minister of Safety and Security:

   (1) Whether, in light of the 2010 World Cup Soccer tournament, the large number of illegal immigrants entering South Africa constitutes a threat (a) to safety and security and (b) of international terrorist attacks; if not, why not; if so,

   (2) whether he has put any measures in place to deal with these threats; if not, why not; if so, what measures in each case? CO1677E

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, there are no known threats to the safety and security of the 2010 Fifa Soccer World Cup or fear of international terrorist attacks. However, operational plans are in place to deal with any emerging threat. Thank you very much.

Mr D A WORTH: Chairperson, I would like to ask the Minister as a follow-up to that: To counter any possible threat to safety and security, some farmers near the borders are arresting illegal immigrants and handing them over to the police. Does the Minister consider that these farmers are assisting the state to uphold safety and security and what is their legal position?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That has got nothing to do with the current question, Mr Worth. That is something very different, but I normally don’t want to bar Ministers if they want to respond and share information with the people. Follow-up questions should arise from questions asked on the Order Paper. Mr Minister, it is up to you whether you want to share information on that, but you are not forced to answer that.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, the only thing I can say is that he should listen tomorrow as I would be answering that question in the National Assembly.

Mr O M THETJENG: Chairperson, I just want to make a follow-up on this question that we have observed, particularly those of us who come from Limpopo, that the Beit Bridge border gate is very porous, and we have been physically there. In relation to 2010 and with that route being used as a smuggling point, I want to ask whether there will be plans in place to ensure that that border gate does not really become a route into the country between now and even during 2010. Some of us are concerned that during that period people can smuggle things that are illegal into our country, and criminals coming from elsewhere will use that border gate to come into the country.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, part of the strategic security plan for 2010 relates to co-operation between South African law- enforcement agencies as well as law-enforcement agencies in the SADC region.

There has been established in SADC what is called the Southern African Regional Police Co-operation Chiefs Co-operation Organisation. That organisation’s work relates to crime as it happens in SADC. But, in recent times, as the police chiefs have been discussing matters that relate to crime combating and prevention in the region, there is a regular item that deals with security questions that relate to 2010. Part of that has to do with preventing certain people, who may want to enter South Africa illegally, principally to cause problems for our country, from doing so.

That matter, as I have indicated, is part and parcel of our planning for the provision of a proper security plan to deal with 2010. Thank you.

Mr S SHICEKA: Chairperson, arising from the answer of the Minister, SADC is looking at the possibility of having, by next year, one economic zone, which means that there will be free movement of people and goods between countries – if that is realisable.

From the SA Police Service’s point of view, are you looking at that, because the implications are that by 2010 people will be moving freely in these countries without any requirement of measures that are taken at this point in time because the conditions would have changed. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, in terms of policing, of course, there has been a quite exhaustive discussion between the various role-players relating to that question; even the economic issues that arise as a consequence of opening up borders.

In fact, the issue of opening up borders is an international matter now. Already the Department of Home Affairs has signed an agreement with Lesotho that relates to that question. But it does not mean that there is going to be such free movement to even allow criminals to take advantage of that space.

We are using many measures. I indicated earlier on how we also use high technology to deal with some of these matters. Therefore, those with criminal intent, who would like to exploit the new arrangements, are not going to succeed, because we are going to pick them up and deal with them. Thank you.

Complaints and/or disciplinary action iro drunken driving harassment,
                       following media article

1. Ms D Robinson (DA) asked the Minister of Safety and Security:

   (1) Whether, with reference to a certain media article (copy furnished) about complaints on drunken driving harassment by Table View police, any complaints of harassment have been laid by residents against any officer at the above-mentioned police station; if so, how many;

   (2) whether any disciplinary action has been taken against any police officer as a result of these complaints; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? CO1678E

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, my response to hon Robinson is that we have not received any formal complaints about the referred media article.

But there is a case that came to our attention on 18 May that we are looking into. Therefore, there are no disciplinary steps that have been taken against anyone at the moment. We don’t know what will happen in future.

Ms D ROBINSON: Chairperson, I thank the Minister for his response. I just want to know whether there are any measures in place to assist policemen to deal with their own stress levels just in case this sort of unnecessary harassment arises from their own stress levels.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Yes, we have an entire section – a division actually – that deals with those matters. It is called the Employee Assistance Services. They deal will all manner of traumas and stresses that arise not only from the work that members of Saps do, but also with respect to domestic problems that they may be confronting where they live. Therefore, that programme does exist.

I must admit that it is not always the case that members make use of the programmes we have, and that obviously has to do with the fact that it is not easy on the part of some of the people who are actually undergoing stress to talk about that to people they consider to be their peers, particularly around the workplace. But, generally, we see a tendency for many of them now to be coming out and talking about those problems.

But there is a regulation where, when a person has been exposed to trauma, they necessarily have to undergo counselling.

Ms D ROBINSON: Chairperson, I would just like to know, since it is a problem for people to speak to their peers about problems - they might feel they lose face or whatever – is there any opportunity for volunteers and independent people to assist our police, because I do think that they definitely need it?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You are now expanding and expanding on your question. [Laughter.] That is a clever way of doing it, but I am listening carefully. Minister, would you like to take that one?

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, perhaps what would help in these circumstances would be for us to have tea upstairs and I can explain some of these things. But what she is raising is important because, indeed, there are many people who are helping us.

The other day we opened a police station at Hout Bay. I met with a number of people who are doing voluntary work there by assisting particularly in our trauma section. Therefore, many of our people have actually made use of private counsellors for trauma counselling. Thank you.

     Availability of breathalyser machines in SA Police Service

1. Ms D Robinson (DA) asked the Minister of Safety and Security:

   Whether, with reference to a certain media report (copy furnished) on a 62-year old woman of Table View receiving counselling as a result of rough treatment by the police, the SA Police Service has its own breathalyser machines; if not, (a) why not and (b) when will the Table View police station be supplied with a breathalyser machine; if so, what are the reasons for the police having to drive to Bonteheuwel police station in order to use a breathalyser machine? CO1679E

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, the police actually don’t use breathalysers. Breathalysers are used by metro police; in other words, the traffic police are the people who use them. Here in the Peninsula, there are only two of those, one at headquarters in their office at Bonteheuwel, and the other one is used on patrol. The police do not use breathalysers. Thank you.

Ms D ROBINSON: Minister, I would like to know that if police are going to apprehend people who appear to be drunk, surely it is necessary for them to have breathalysers. Isn’t it something that we need to investigate that can be available closer at hand?

I also know of cases where people have had to go to hospitals to have tests done and the service there has been so slow that people have been put into cells overnight, waiting for the results of the blood tests, and this seems to be delaying justice.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: I am sure that there is no regulation that would stop the police from having breathalysers. I don’t know. I am thinking on my feet here. I do not know if there is a particular reason why they do not have them because you are correct in what you are saying. For instance, we do stop people for drunk driving, and indeed the first thing that we do in a situation like that is that blood is taken for testing. But, I don’t know if there would be an impediment that would stop the police from using breathalysers. We don’t have them, and I suppose it has been tradition that traffic officers use them.

Resolution of cases of sexual exploitation and/or sexual violence involving SA National Defence Force troops

1. Ms J F Terblanche (DA) asked the Minister of Defence: (1) With reference to his reply to Question 410 on 1 June 2006, how many (a) of the 18 reported cases have been finalised and (b) incidents of sexual exploitation and/or sexual violence involving troops of the SA National Defence Force deployed in peacekeeping operations in Africa have been reported since 2006;

   (2) whether his department has taken any steps to ensure the speedy resolution of these cases; if not, why not; if so, what steps? CO1680E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Comrade Chairperson, I thank Ms Terblanche for the question. The answer is that of the 18 reported cases, nine have been finalised, and since 2006 several cases have been reported. The Director of Military Prosecutions has issued instructions that the finalisation of sexual misconduct cases is a priority. The status of the cases as mentioned and written feedback is provided to the Chief Director of Legal Support every fortnight.

Military police officials were sent to areas of external deployment with the exclusive task of tracing the complainants and witnesses from the local population to ensure their availability to testify in court. Thank you.

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: Thank you for the answer, Deputy Minister. You said that there were incidents of sexual exploitation that were reported since 2006; do you have the numbers of these cases? How many of these were reported? Please?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Comrade Chairperson, I thought that this was a follow-up question. At the last reply we reported that 18 cases were reported and the question was: What happened to those 18 cases? We say that out of those 18 cases, nine have been finalised. But if you are now putting a new question as to how many cases up to now, we would not be able to provide that answer, unless we came here prepared. This is a new question and it is not in line with the one on the Question Paper. You must realise that this one is a follow-up from the question that was asked by the hon member on the question of the numbers of cases that were reported - that is 18 cases.

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, I am sorry but it is actually a follow-up to section (b). The question was whether incidents were reported and Minister answered, yes. Now I am only asking how many.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: He says that he does not have the numbers. That is an answer.

Investigation by Scorpions into alleged offences, and steps taken by
        National Prosecuting Authority to bring case to court 73.   Ms J F Terblanche (DA) asked the Minister for Justice and
  Constitutional Development:


  (1)   Whether investigations into alleged offences by a certain person
       (name furnished) have been completed by the Scorpions;  if  not,
       (a) why not and (b) when is it expected to be completed; if so,




  (2)   whether the National Prosecuting Authority has taken  any  steps
       to bring the case to court; if not, why not; if so, what steps;


  (3)   whether the State will pay the said person’s legal fees if he is
       charged; if not, why not; if so, why?              CO1681E

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: I thank the hon member for the question. I have been advised by the National Prosecuting Authority that the investigation into alleged offences, by the person that the hon member is referring to, has not yet been completed due to complexities in this matter. These include, amongst others, the legal challenges, which were brought by the alleged co-accused and the said person, which is further delaying the investigation. It is anticipated that the investigation will be completed by the end of October 2007, according to the NPA.

Question 2, falls away. As to question 3, the state has not received an application to pay the legal fees of any person in this matter. In this light therefore, I am unable to say, at this stage, how the state will respond to such an application, which does not yet exist.

Findings of task team appointed to investigate corruption at Qalakabusha Correctional Centre

1. Mr O M Thetjeng (DA) asked the Minister of Correctional Services:

   (1) What have been the findings of the task team appointed by him to investigate corruption at the Qalakabusha Correctional Centre;

   (2) whether any disciplinary action has been taken as a result of these findings; if not, why not; if so, (a) what action and (b) against whom? CO1682E

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you very much Chair. The investigations into allegations of corruption, collusion, unethical behaviour in Empangeni at Qalakabusha Correctional Centre - Qalakabusha means “place of new beginnings” - are currently at a very advanced stage. The task team is in the process of finalising the investigation and will report to me quite soon. As to the second part, at this stage, no disciplinary steps have been taken against any official or person; however, 17 officials have been suspended pending the outcome of the investigative report. It is worth mentioning, also, that there is a parallel investigation that is being conducted by the South African Police Service regarding the alleged aiding and abetting of the escape. Thank you.

Mr O M THETJENG: Thank you, Minister, for the response. I just want to check with the Minister whether the task team that has been appointed in Qalakabusha will follow the same procedures that applied in other cases where such incidences have occurred, so that we come to the bottom of these problems that we have in the department? Thank you, Chairperson.

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Surely, Mr Thetjeng, you would understand that it won’t be the same task teams for the different occurrences that happen in other centres, depending on that, but in terms of the fact that the task team includes SAPS, the National Intelligence Agency, and all the security institutions, we’ve taken from them. But, we also make sure that if it’s something happening in Qalakabusha we get people from outside of KwaZulu-Natal to do the investigation, so as to make sure that there is no collusion at all amongst those, because we want to get to the bottom of this, and then deal with the officials that are creating this kind of problem.

  Implementation of e-scheduler systems in magistrates’ courts; and
  interruption of court proceedings due to lost and stolen dockets

1. Mr A Watson (DA) asked the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:

   (1) Whether the e-scheduler system rolled out by her department has been implemented in all magistrates’ courts as scheduled by the end of June 2007; if not, (a) why not, (b) how many magistrates’ courts still require this system and (c) by when will this system be implemented at these courts; if so, what measures has her department put in place to train staff to use this system;

   2) whether the number of cases of court proceedings being interrupted due to lost and stolen dockets has decreased; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? CO1683E

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: I want to sneeze and it does not want to come.

I thank the hon Watson for the question. I would like to refer the hon member to the Minister’s reply to Question 189, which was submitted to the National Assembly.

In this reply, the Minister advised that 455 courts have the e-scheduler installed and operational. Since then an additional four courts have had the e-scheduler installed. There are still 13 courts remaining that do not have the e-scheduler installed. The reason for that is that six courts are still under construction; two courts do not have Telkom infrastructure, and that is being installed, and the remaining five courts will be connected to the e-scheduler on 1 September 2007.

I have some facts and figures here, but I won’t go into that. As far as training is concerned, the principle of “train-the-trainer” is being followed to adhere to the training demands. Users within each administrative cluster have been identified and trained to assist and support the users. Since 1 October 2006, 334 users’ functional trainers representing the various administrative clusters have been trained at national office to be able to do the training on these issues.

As to question 2, specific statistics regarding the impact of lost and stolen dockets are not readily available. It may be mentioned in court that a case cannot proceed because a docket is not at court, for whatever reason, and the presiding officer may reflect that on the case record. This is, unfortunately, not currently captured in the general statistics of the National Prosecuting Authority or the department, as the current information systems do not capture the reasons for specific court interruption such as lost or stolen dockets.

The field and the e-scheduler are currently being revisited and a field to capture such information will be considered. It can be mentioned, however, that, on average, the number of cases of court proceedings being interrupted due to lost and stolen dockets had decreased, according to information sources on the various cluster heads of the courts. This is largely due to measures initiated to enforce stricter control over dockets, such as the implementation of registers at prosecutorial level for docket handover control and docket lock-up facilities at the South African Police Service and court level, which didn’t exist previously.

Further measures receiving attention is the scanning solution currently being tested and to be implemented at the end of this financial year. It will be run as part and parcel of the e-scheduler management system, so that the scheduling of cases and the required presence of dockets at courts are aligned. So, we do not have a paper-based system, we have an e-based system.

Another exciting development is the e-docket system that is currently being piloted by the SAPS. This will ensure that a permanent electronic copy of the content of the case docket will be available at all times, and to reduce the time lost as a result of dockets not being available, for whatever reason. This will be phased in during the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework period.

We are doing two things to try to move to an e-based system; either using scanners so that, if ever a docket is again lost and so on, you will always have the docket available or this whole project of the police to have all their dockets as e-dockets, instead of having the paper-based system. So, hopefully, that will take away, completely, the problem of lost and stolen dockets, but its impact has decreased tremendously. There are only very few such cases.

Mr A WATSON: Thank you, Chairperson, and thank you, hon Deputy Minister for that comprehensive answer. I have a follow-up on the two subjects: There is the one on the e-scheduler and now the mentioned e-dockets that you are talking about. What would the effect be, because dockets, as I remember, contain sworn affidavits and sworn statements and if it’s merely copies or scanned copies, will the validity of those sworn affidavits or sworn statements still have affirmation for that matter? Will they still remain as valid as a written affirmation or statement?

In the case of the second follow-up, over the weekend we read about the dockets of the six farmers that couldn’t go to trial because the dockets were missing. I do not quite agree with the statement you made about it. It shouldn’t delay the court proceedings against offenders if the dockets are mislaid or stolen. Maybe you can explain why that has made such headlines in the news over the weekend. Thanks, Chairperson.

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: The first question is a very valid one, obviously, because clearly, if you want to put evidence before court, you have to have the original documentation; but, you see, what the scanner and the e-docket do is to enable people to work with those electronics and then lock up the written document.

You see, the problem now is that every person carries it around and if they don’t have proper systems, one can for example, carry it and leave it while at a pub or somewhere; walk away and leave the docket there, and it gets lost, whereas now you can go and lock that with all the signatures away. You don’t have to touch that docket again, unless someone challenges the validity of the signature, then you have to haul out the docket. So, I think that is the one.

I’m not aware of this issue - I don’t like reading newspapers on weekends, they are terribly depressing and horrible - but if you give me the information later, I’ll follow it up for you and give you an answer. I’m not sure what has happened there; but in theory, the systems that we have put in place are not yet foolproof, as the e-one will be, and I imagine there are still things going wrong, but if you give me the information, I’ll check it up for you.

I think this sounds like a case of “n boer maak ‘n plan”, but I’m not aware of that.

Ms D ROBINSON: I am delighted to hear about the progress of going into electronics; it certainly does ease the situation, but we often have the problem of power failures and then all electronic services collapse. I would just like to know whether you have adequate backup systems or disaster-recovery systems to ensure that all these electronic copies are safe? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: I can’t answer you now because the systems are still being set up, but now that you have warned me, I’ll make sure that the backups are there. Look, I’m sure any electronic system that is worth its salt will have to have such systems, but it’s good that you reminded me now. I can check up when they install it that it does have the backups. Thanks a lot.

Measures to ensure transformation in middle management of SA Navy and SA Air Force

1. Kgoshi M L Mokoena (ANC) asked the Minister of Defence:

   Whether his department is putting any measures in place to ensure that there is transformation in the middle management of the SA Navy and the SA Air Force; if not, why not; if so, (a) what measures and (b) by when will they have been put in place?

           CO1777E
   

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Thank you very much, Comrade Chairperson and Kgoshi. Yes, the department has transformation measures in place in terms of the Department of Defence Human Resource Strategy 2010 and the White Paper on Defence. These measures are aimed at transforming the human resource component of the Department of Defence through rejuvenation and ensuring representation of all groups.

Before I read the three measures to you, Kgoshi, I must say that you will realise that the Department of Defence, especially the SANDF, is not like other departments. You cannot bring people to Defence by merely advertising for the post of colonel. If you want to be a colonel in the Department of Defence, you will have to go through the ranks – lieutenant-colonel, major and so on. So you cannot just be parachuted into any position.

The problem, as you are saying, is at the middle management. The middle management at the moment, especially the colonels and the lieutenant- colonels, is still not yet representative. For that to happen, certain things must happen. The measures as I would list them are as follows: Firstly, we have the fast-tracking programme. The SA National Defence Force is continuously revising its measures for the fast-tracking programme. This entails providing an accelerated training programme for identified high potential members from previously designated groups. Fast-tracked members are then identified for middle management positions with the various Department of Defence divisions upon completion of the accelerated training programme.

Secondly, there is the mobility exit mechanism, which is an employer- initiated financial package, offered to members that would have been identified to have reached a career plateau to make way for rejuvenation. Like I am saying, if you have all these colonels, who are 96% White, you cannot just wake up one morning and say: “I want a representative at the colonel level,” and get rid of 20% Whites and replace them with Blacks; and, as it is all male-dominated, say: “Get out, you 30% of men, I want to put in females.” You have to wait until they exit and, of course, new people will come in and take their positions.

And lastly, the recruitment is predominately focused on core mastering in order to accelerate representation. This will also include women from the black racial groupings.

To answer your second question, there are these measures that are already in place and are also used to transform the middle management within the SA Air Force and the SA Navy. You might have heard recently that the promotions, especially in the positions of colonels and brigadier-generals already indicate that these measures are in place and working. I thank you.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, let me thank the Deputy Minister for this exciting response, because it takes us somewhere. It shows that the department is moving.

In terms of progression, hon Deputy Minister, how soon can we see this happening - just to see the picture of that middle management reflecting the demography of this country? I am just asking in terms of the progression - when I look forward.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Chairperson, Kgoshi Mokoena, like I said, the plan is there. If you look at the numbers at lower levels, you can already see that they reflect the demographics of this country. But, for that to move forward, you need to firstly use these mechanisms. Regarding these mechanisms such as the member exit mechanism, you cannot just say to somebody that he must take it. It must be a voluntary thing. The more people make use of the member exit mechanism, the more you will be able to fill the position and be representative.

Also there were recent promotions to generals. They also took some people who were there upwards, which also created space, again, for representativity. Already, that is taking place. At some stage it was 90%, 80% and so on, but you will realise that it has gone back down to 60%. Probably next year, if you call us again and ask us that in terms of representivity, how is our situation at colonel, lieutenant-colonel levels, you might find that it has gone down, probably to 50% or less. As I am saying, it is a process which we can only analyse when you have asked that question.

  Building of more prisons as a potential solution to overcrowding

1. Mr N J Mack (ANC) asked the Minister of Correctional Services:

   (1) Whether the building of more prisons is regarded as a solution to the overcrowding in our prisons; if not, what are the possible remedies;

   (2) whether he will make a statement on the matter? CO1778E

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you, Deputy Chairperson. Hon Mack, internationally, there is consensus that the building of more and more correctional centres as a single solution to overcrowding is not a viable option. The Department of Correctional Services in South Africa developed a multipronged strategy to alleviate overcrowding of correctional centres.

What do we do? Firstly, we look at managing the levels of awaiting-trial detainees through the Integrated Justice System Case Management Task Team, and Intersectoral Committee on Child Justice. It is one of the tools that we use.

Secondly, we manage levels of sentenced offenders through improving effective and appropriate use of conversion of sentences to community correctional supervision; and the release on parole and transfers between correctional centres to attempt to establish some degree of evenness on overcrowding. One centre has a lot of people, whereas the other one has a small number. So we try to transfer them, so that there is a balance in what we do.

Thirdly, we are ensuring progress with our own infrastructure with the capital works programme to upgrade our facilities and to build new correctional centres that are both cost-effective and rehabilitation oriented. Most of the centres that we have, like Pollsmoor and others, and the one next to your home in Beaufort West, are the old ones. They don’t lend themselves to rehabilitation. So we are trying to build new ones, and we call them the new generation centres. Qalakabusha is one of them. You are able to do unit management in them.

Already, we are busy with Kimberley, Port Shepstone, East London, Allendale and Klerksdorp. We would also like to encourage debate in South Africa about reasons for incarceration as a sentence and encouraging an approach to appropriate sentencing that is focused on the facilitating of rehabilitation. We would also like enhance community correctional supervision, so that it can be better utilised as an appropriate sentence for less serious crimes.

I am happy that I am saying this in the presence of the Deputy Minister of Justice. This morning we discussed that we wouldn’t have a situation where a person who had just slapped somebody, not that anybody should slap anybody, can end up in a correctional centre. It is really not on and not necessary at all. But it doesn’t mean that Mr George can just slap anybody. [Laughter.] You don’t do it.

We are also looking at improving correction and developing programmes within our centres to ensure enhanced facilitation of rehabilitation – play sports, agriculture, education and everything that goes with it, to make sure that they really change. We would like to encourage improvement of first and second levels of correction in families, social institutions, as well as social and economic sector government departments respectively, to decrease the rate of entry into the criminal justice system.

We would like to encourage community involvement in the social reintegration of offenders back into their communities, so that when they go back, communities don’t say that they don’t want them. Who wants them? Communities have to be very amenable to that and accept them when we put them back. They should help us in making sure that they are settled in, into those communities, and to also reduce the levels of repeat offending. Your second part asks whether I will make a statement on the matter. I have made my statement.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): I would like to welcome the hon Deputy Minister of Correctional Services. And I would like you to take a seat in front here, please. Are there any follow-up questions to the Minister?

Mr N J MACK: Thank you, hon Minister, for a very good answer. With the new generation facilities, we also see that many of our crimes are related to drug and substance abuse. Just locking up a person with this type of problem is not a solution. In the policy will this also incorporate the treatment of these offenders when they are in the centres?

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you, Deputy Chairperson. Hon Mack, there are programmes that we have within the department. Most of those programmes are specific to why the person was sentenced in the first place. We make sure that if you come in with a drug-related problem, we have staff members, as well as other people coming from outside to assist you with the problem that you have.

So, there is a drug rehabilitation programme that we will put you in. We will ask Social Development, as well, to come in and assist us and provide social workers. If it is a social offence, again, we deal with it in that kind of fashion. We have those programmes that are really trying to assist. Again, I always put out this call to families when they go and visit, on Tuesdays and Thursdays mostly, all over the country, it is awaiting-trial detainees that get visited by their families. One of the best things is to visit with those families, so that you can understand what they say to those people that are inside – to assist them.

On Saturdays and Sundays, it is for offenders that are sentenced, all over the country. Mluleki calls them criminals, and I call them offenders. Their families visit them and again, we try and put them through programmes so that they can assist them in the process and, try and make them understand that being in a correctional centre is not the best of things. The best thing is to try and give yourself a second chance.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, let me also thank the Minister for the elaborative and educative response. Based on what we, as a cluster, have seen as a detachment in all provinces, we need to look into alleviating this overcrowding in our prisons. Hon Minister, if there is an improved JCPS cluster in all the regions or areas, can that not also, as a way of assisting, help with this overcrowding in our prisons? I thank you.

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you very much, Kgoshi. One of the quite good strategies I heard this morning came from the Deputy Minister of Justice in the task team that they have. We need to replicate the structures that we have at national level, to provincial levels, right up to district level, so that work can then be done right where the centres are. In this situation, those Justice Crime Prevention and Security clusters are doing very well.

I would wish to see all of them working together, not only in the JCPS cluster, but also in the community safety forums, because that is where, again, you can do a lot of work, to convince also the judiciary and the magistrates that those who have really done petty crimes should really be diverted away from our centres, so that we are able to deal with those that need proper rehabilitation. Those kinds of structures are helping quite a lot. I must say that. I thank you.

Mr S SHICEKA: Thank you, Deputy Chairperson. Hon Minister, don’t you think it would be a proper thing that you should borrow from the indigenous law in terms of a way of doing things that is more restorative? In that way you will be able to come up with more ways of alternative sentencing than is currently the case, with the retributive system that you are having, so that you can reduce the level of overcrowding. Could you also suggest that the Department of Justice look at those ways?

In indigenous law, the way of dealing with issues of crime and so on is more building than destroying. Therefore, sentencing is not only incarceration. Don’t you think you can actually raise that, or do some research in that respect? I thank you.

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: There is work that is being done on that. The issue of restorative justice is not only for us. We also have our own unit of that restorative justice, where you can get the victim and the attacker or offender families meeting and talking, so that you can find a way of avoiding that any person goes to prison. But you cannot do it for murder, of course. You can do it for other crimes, but for murder, rape and so on, you have to go the route of going through the courts.

There is something like that that is happening. Parole boards as well, within correctional services, do that all the time, to try and alleviate the problem of overcrowding. I thank you.

Incentives to SA National Defence Force members deployed in peace-keeping operations

1. Mr A L Moseki (ANC) asked the Minister of Defence:

   Whether any incentives are given to SA National Defence Force members deployed in some countries on the continent as part of a peacekeeping force; if not, why not; if so, (a) what incentives and (b) what are the budgetary implications? CO1781E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: The answer is: Yes, the Department of Defence does have incentive allowances for operational deployments. Members deployed are eligible for deployment allowances that comprise of a danger allowance, special danger allowance, and other needs to be declared as such, standby allowance, deprivation allowance and international obligations special daily allowance. The incentive allowance is about R9 742, 50 per member per month on average. Added to this is an IOSDA that differs according to the country being served, as published by the Minister for the Public Service and Administration. At present, it ranges from R3 572, 70 per annum if you are for example in the DRC. But if, for instance you are soldiers in Nepad, it is R 1163, 70 per month. For the 2007-08 financial year this department has budgeted an amount of nearly R322 million for these operational allowances in respect of support to peace missions. Thank you.

Mr N J MACK: Thank you, hon Minister, for a very educative response. What I would like to know is whether there is any uniform standard rate for different countries or whether everyone is allowed the same incentives in rands and cents? How far do these incentives assure that we get the best possible people to deploy out to operations? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Thank you, Uncle Mack. I am not sure if you asked if there is any uniformity. Well, it depends. If a deployment is under the United Nations, surely it will have its own arrangements as per United Nations’ arrangements. But if a deployment is conducted by the AU, it will also have its own arrangements. But countries themselves also have their own arrangements because you will realise that countries do not pay their soldiers the same way. But all these arrangements must fit in. If a deployment is under the United Nations, the arrangements must fit into the United Nations’ programme; if it’s the AU, the arrangements must fit into the AU’s programme.

But as to getting the best possible people to deploy out to operations - when countries are looking for soldiers, for instance, they let you know what it is that they want from you. If they want a battalion, they will ask you for a battalion. If the United Nations wants you, then they give you their determined criteria. Even the AU works the same way. But there are specific requirements for any soldiers deployed outside the country. They must meet a certain criteria. This criteria, unfortunately, has nothing to do with remuneration. This is a criterion that befits soldiers that are going to be sent to a place of conflict and therefore all soldiers, irrespective of the allowances, must meet a certain criteria.

Mr S SHICEKA: Well, the Deputy Minister has educated us on this issue. But my interest is more on the deprivation allowance. What does this deprivation allowance entail? What is being deprived? I would want to hear about that, Deputy Minister. In addition to that, Deputy Minister, is the inspiration of the soldiers … I mean I have friends who are soldiers. They love to go outside the country because they feel that they get more money. But is it a widespread thing that soldiers are inspired to go and serve the interest of the country in other countries? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Well, it is a fact that soldiers get excited when they are deployed because of these incentives. This is because when they come back from deployment, they come back better off because of these allowances. One soldier was joking with me saying that with this deployment to the DRC he bought a house in cash. He said that then if he could get another deployment then he would buy a car in cash. So, these incentives make people eager to go to the deployments.

This question of deprivation - well, I think these hon members here will at least … As a man of God, I don’t have to say all these things. But surely you will realise what deprivations the people are going through. [Laughter.] When you are placed in Burundi, you are deprived from seeing your children. [Laughter.] I will not talk about the mother of the children. [Laughter.] But there are these deprivations. Thank you.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Let me thank the Deputy Minister for this wonderful response. Chair, arising from the Deputy Minister’s response, other than the monetary value and based on some of the conditions that prevail in those countries where the sons and daughters of this country are deployed, are there other things that go with this monetary value as incentives to attract and motivate these combat-ready and dedicated troops of our country? Through you, Chair, to the Deputy Minister.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Well, Kgoshi, once you are deployed … One of the things you must also have is the picture of a soldier – any soldier anywhere in the world. A soldier would like to fight a war or to get experience or exposure. This is natural. This is like a good rugby player - not like Jake White’s players. [Laughter.] They want to play rugby. They don’t just practise. Soldiers are like that. You would even hear all soldiers when they talk that they talk about how many wars they have fought. Even if you are a soldier but didn’t fight any war, to them you are not a good soldier. So, it’s an experience. Besides that, they learn a lot. They get involved in situations where they learn how things are done. Our soldiers, for instance, learned a lot in Burundi. In fact they did a very good thing for that country. If you go to Burundi now and you just say that you are from South Africa, the Burundians would want to give you something or lift you up in the air. That’s how excited they become. So, I am saying that besides the money that they get by being involved in deployments, they also gain a lot of experience.

You must realise that before we got involved in these peacekeeping operations, we had to arrange for quick training because training for peacekeeping operations is different from training for a war. But, at the moment, we can proudly say that we have done what we can to now be compared with any other country in the world in terms of our training. So, they have benefited a lot in terms of experience and understanding. Sometimes, of course, some of those guys come back speaking French, especially those who are in the DRC. So, there are those other benefits. Some of them when they retire as generals, as happens in other countries, we will be able to send then even for negotiating peace because we are also beginning to train them on negotiating skills. Thank you.

        Implementation of recommendations of Jali Commission

1. Mr N J Mack (ANC) asked the Minister of Correctional Services:

   (a) How many recommendations by the Jali Commission have been implemented and (b) how is his department benefiting from them?

           CO1784E
   

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Let me declare this so that the Deputy Minister of Defence knows that my blood is green. So when he says that Jake White’s guys can’t play rugby, my blood is green.

My bloed is groen. [My blood is green.]

It is World Cup next month. That is now out of the way.

On the Jali Commission, hon Mack, in the process of the assessment of the entire report of the Jali Commission - remember it spent quite some time, from 2001 to 2005, which was a long time with the commission sitting and unearthing all those things it had to unearth - it was found that the report dealt with a number of issues which were categorised into organisational systems and policies on the one hand, and misconduct and disciplinary matters on the other.

There were 18 issues relating to organisational systems in that report. Under each of these matters there were a number of recommendations. The Department of Correctional Services has made considerable progress in dealing with the recommendations made under these issues, and it should be mentioned that through the initiatives that formed part of the department’s transformation process, by the time the commission completed its work, the department had already made some strides in addressing some of these issues.

With regard to misconduct matters, the department has dealt with most of the disciplinary cases that emanated from the Jali Commission’s report. As a result of the disciplinary proceedings that have taken place, 45 officials were dismissed; 39 received written warnings; 5 received counselling as per the commission’s recommendation; 10 were acquitted; 67 cases were withdrawn due to reasons mainly relating to lack of evidence; 36 officials resigned, and 13 passed away before the finalisation of the disciplinary process. The department is currently dealing with the last portion of the disciplinary cases involving 34 officials who are part of that final report of the Jali Commission. We are busy dealing with that now.

The benefit that the department got from the commission’s recommendations relating to systems and policies is that such recommendations enhanced the department’s confidence in the initiatives it has already undertaken during that transformation process as part of aligning the department with the country’s constitutional dispensation. The findings and recommendations pertaining to misconduct have enabled us as a department to get rid of some of the bad officials that we had in the department, people who are not fit to be part of our correctional system, like the ones who were on Special Assignment. We got rid of them immediately; we fired them. We don’t play games in Correctional Services.

Secondly, we benefited quite a lot in terms of the values of integrity and accountability that emanated from that process. At least people now know, you do something wrong, you get punished for that. That’s what we got from the whole Jali Commission’s report. Thank you.

Mr N J MACK: Thank you, Minister. The next logical question would be: Are there any other recommendations that are still outstanding? Will there be a timeframe set or how soon can that work be finished? The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: The Deputy Minister of Defence says I should not just get rid of them. I should make sure that they get arrested. He is quite right. There are always criminal charges that go with that; we fire you and still follow you up with criminal charges.

Hon Mack, I think we are now finalising those and I am hoping that by the time we rise in the NCOP and National Assembly, we will have everything tied up so that we can deal with the other cases that are there.

Mr S SHICEKA: Thank you very much, Deputy Chairperson. Minister, I am very excited about the way the department and you yourself respond to the issues of corruption. It is very good because you demonstrate that you don’t tolerate corruption and corruption has no place in your department. That comes out positively, even if it is exposed by people. We encourage that because, before, there was an impression created of saying that if you expose corruption, you the whistle-blower are going to be punished. I am saying that that has turned around. We appreciate that very much. Continue with it; it is good work.

There are three things which I think came out prominently in that report. It was around corruption. On corruption, are you taking proactive steps to deal with corruption before it is exposed. I think you have talked about the Special Assignment programme where people were taking money blatantly without knowing that they are on camera and so on, including saying that some boys are taken from the places where kids are to be given to adults who abuse them.

The second area is gangsterism. Gangsterism is a stumbling block to rehabilitation because people have their internal specialised gang authority and orders that you must listen to. How are you going to deal with this? Sometimes it is a reflection of the society. It is a microcosm of society, particularly if you look at the Western Cape. It is quite a rife thing even to someone who is outside the situation.

The last one is overcrowding, which I think you are taking steps to deal with. Those three prominent areas, if dealt with, will go a long way in dealing with the issues that are affecting Correctional Services. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you very much, hon Shiceka. Thank you for the commendations that you did, and also the way that you have noticed that we try and move as swiftly as possible to try and deal with anything that is not of good and moral value within the department. We try to be very swift and we try to deal with those cases without fear or favour to anybody.

There was a time - you are quite right - during which, if you raised issues or when you saw that certain wrong things were being done within the department, they would use all kinds of threats. You would be the one who gets threatened by the wrongdoers. That era is gone; people know exactly where we stand. There is clarity on where we stand on issues. I am quite happy that we have reached that stage.

On issues of corruption we have got the DIU. Each department has got its investigating unit. We have got the departmental investigating unit which is doing a lot of work, where things are reported when somebody feels that there is something going on. We have got a hotline as well and we are working very closely with the police and with the SIU in cleaning up the department.

In terms of these young boys you were talking about, since we have got this new system of working together with Social Development and with Justice, there is no mixing of young offenders with adult offenders. We do our best to ensure that they should not mix at all, so that there is nothing untoward that could happen. The places of safety that we work with, with Social Development, are really starting to benefit the whole process. It is the Deputy Minister of Correctional Services’ forte to talk to the MECs of social development in the provinces so that we can set these things up correctly, and then send all these young children into those centres of safety.

The issue of gangsterism is very difficult because nobody ever comes out and says I am a 28 or a 26. They will not do that, but we have got a way of fighting gangsterism within the prisons. Once we find it, immediately we break that circle of gangsters and throw them all over the country, and they can then start anew wherever they are. There are programmes to try and warn them about the dangers of thinking that you have come to correctional centres to form gangs instead of being here to be rehabilitated.

One of the incentives that we have given is that if at least you do four programmes that are beneficial to you, the parole boards can look at your case. I am not talking about the big cases; I am talking about the medium ones. They can look at you and consider you for parole release so that you can finish part of your sentence outside.

If you are going to be involved in gangsterism, you will not have a chance to do all those things because you have given yourself that attitude that I am here, I am a 28 or a 27 or a 26, and I have got my own group. You will never be able to be rehabilitated. We are trying our best to break that cycle totally within our centres. Thank you very much.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Thanks, Chairperson. Let me also join the queue to thank the department for the wonderful work that they are doing. We are very proud of this department. Based on this response from the Minister and on that note, is it not high time, hon Minister, that when we employ these correctional officers, for us to introduce a measure whereby all of them are going to be vetted to eliminate these unwanted elements who are tarnishing the good image of this department in dealing with corruption? It is just a thought, hon Minister, about whether we can’t do that?

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you, we have two colleges, Zonderwater and Kroonstad College, where our students go to, and they do a year’s training, three months in the college and nine months at the centre. It is very true that if we don’t catch them at that stage and vet them properly, we will continue to have this type of wrong people within the department.

However, I must assure you, normally it is not the new students who cause this. It is the older ones and the new ones join in as well. We are trying our best however to instil some sense of discipline within. In the colleges, as well, we have asked that students be taken through some of the modules that teach them what needs to be done when you get to a centre. The environment that officials work in is a very difficult one. Correctional centres are very difficult by nature because you are in with a number of people who have different ideals about what life is all about. Those that were caught on camera, for instance, it was an inmate who is awaiting trial outside on bail who filmed them. He came out on bail and invited them to McDonalds. Can you believe this? How does an awaiting-trial inmate on bail invite you, being the official, to a McDonalds and you go? Why would you do that?

So, these are some of the issues that are really worrying in this whole thing, but we will make sure that that kind of vetting takes place. It doesn’t mean we will totally eliminate all those things, but we have to try our best to make sure that we protect the integrity of this department as much as we can. Thank you very much.

               Rehabilitation of correctional officers

1. Ms F Nyanda (ANC) asked the Minister of Correctional Services:

   Whether correctional officers are also rehabilitated in line with the department’s policy; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details? CO1785E

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Nyanda, the Employee Health and Wellness Policy shall regulate and give direction to activities that are related to physical activity, recreation, EAP, HIV/Aids, occupational health and safety, organisational culture and spiritual care to ensure that they support this broad view of employee health and wellness.

We have got a directorate which helps with that kind of thing for our staff members. You can never have people who should be seen as rehabilitators not being rehabilitated themselves. So, you need to make sure that you start with them.

Two objectives of the employee health and wellness policy are, firstly, to promote and enhance a multidisciplinary and holistic approach in the provision of the health and wellness programme for the employees. Secondly, to provide guidelines and to enhance the health and wellness of all employees and to develop health and wellness programmes.

It’s quite a long list of things that I have here. I would table them for you; but suffice it to say that we really try our best to take care of our staff members and ensure that they participate in their own programmes as well. A healthy staff would be a happy staff, so you need to be able to do that. We did send a group of officials - not offenders - to Australia quite recently to participate in the World Police and Fire Games, and they did very well. They had competitions among themselves even in sports, arts and culture to try and make them as healthy and happy as possible. Thank you.

        Use of retired judges in dealing with sensitive cases

1. Kgoshi M L Mokoena (ANC) asked the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:

   Whether it is still desirable to make use of retired judges in dealing with sensitive cases; if so, under what circumstances?

           CO1786E
   

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: I thank hon Mokoena for the question. I am assuming the hon member does not refer to retired judges in the true sense of the word, but to judges discharged from active service in terms of section 3 of the Judges’ Remuneration and Conditions of Employment Act of 1997.

It is quite important to make this distinction, because since 1989 in this country once you are appointed as a judge you are a judge for life, and retirement is something that does not really fit in the scheme. I can explain that if people need some more information. Although this information, in terms of section 7 of the Act, is compulsory for the judge, in that a judge who has been discharged from active service in terms of section 3 (1) shall, subject to subsection (2A), be available to perform service until he or she attains the age of 75 years for a period or periods which in the aggregate amount to three months a year, service on the bench can only be performed a the request of the head of the court concerned, after consultation with the Judicial Service Commission and with the approval of the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development. Obviously, it is very complicated and a lot of people have to buy into it before they are appointed.

A request of this nature is considered on merit, taking into account various factors such as the need for transformation of the judiciary, investment in and grooming of new talent and the financial implications thereof, because discharged judges, when they perform extra service, of course, are entitled to a second salary. And that’s on the one hand, but also the special kind of experience required for particular cases on the other hand. A matter which comes to the mind is the huge backlog in criminal appeals in some of the High Courts and backlogs which need to be dealt with expeditiously, not only in the interest of their appearance, but also in the interest of the administrational justices and the judicial system.

I have already indicated that I wouldn’t principally be prepared to give my approval to this, Chair – well, this is the task of the Minister of course – namely, for these judges to perform service for this purpose. The Judicial Service Commission has also indicated support in general for such an exercise.

Let me, therefore, in conclusion, assure the hon member that discharged judges are only utilised to perform service on the bench in cases where it is really necessary, and especially also since they then get two salaries in the process. Thank you. Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Thank you, hon Deputy Minister, for the reply. What would be your comment, hon Deputy Minister, to comments by some judicial officers who indicated their displeasure at using these retired judges in some sensitive cases. In the minds of some people some of them are still glued’’ and you cannotun-glue’’ them from the old order. Some of them are not even sensitive to some issues and their judgments in some cases are even questionable. How do we comment on these concerns by some judicial officers who are against the usage of the retired judges?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: I do not know who is saying this. I would like to see who they are and talk to them because I imagine such a person - the head of the court - having to come and say he wants a particular person. The JSC and the Minister must then agree to that. Now, it’s highly unlikely in those circumstances that someone who is clinging to the old order is going to be appointed in the process, because such a person in any case will not be interested to do this kind of work. I have my doubts about that.

But, of course there is some resistance. I mean you have been in front of the court and the other day you heard of old judges that appeared in front of the court the other day because they said they don’t want to ask for permission to do other work and so on. But the problem is that a particular salary framework was agreed to in 1989 before we were in government by the late Kobie Coetzee. What they have agreed on is that from 1989 onwards every judge appointed is appointed for life. What does that mean? You only have to work for 15 years as a judge. So, you come there at age of 55, you only have to work till the age of 70. Then for the rest of your life you receive a judge’s salary. If you die, your spouse receives two-thirds of a judge’s salary for the rest of her or his life. In all of that time you received an A-series Mercedes - worth R750 000. Every five years you get a new car. That car is completely maintained by government. So, if the car crashes, we have to look after it and we have to provide the petrol for it too.

No pension is paid during the process. When you are a judge you do not contribute to any pension because you do not retire. You only pay, like the rest of us, your medical aid and PAYE. But you and I, we pay seven-and-half- per cent of our salary to pension. Legally we are obliged to pay 7,5% to pension. Judges do not do so, yet they get the salary for the rest of their life. When they have done 15 years or a lesser period on pro forma, they get between R1 and R1,5 million rand as a gratuity after the 15 years.

This is the burden that this government has had with all judges since 1989. When they discussed this matter with the late Kobie Coetzee and agreed to this, we weren’t there. But, we do not want you after you have been a judge to create embarrassments for the Bench and so on. We will pay you salaries for the rest of your life but the quid pro quo is, if you want to do any other work, you ask us for permission to do. And that is what they have agreed to. Now they have come along and are saying, no, they want to take the salary every month and want to do whatever work they want to do. No, I mean that just cannot work like that. You cannot have two regimes that apply to you. By the way, I must say to you of course that they have said to the committee that they found that this is illegal, unconstitutional and so on.

For the last, I do not know how many years, most of the judges themselves applied to the Minister more than 200 times for permission to do other work. All this time they were never told that this thing was illegal and unconstitutional. Now suddenly it is so. These things have existed long before we came here and so on. That is that complaint that is in the public domain. So, I do think that when we debate these things we have to look at it nicely. I do not want to tell you what the burden is. But, the burden that we have that we have to care for judges and their families for the rest of their lives, is huge - without any money going into that.

Now if judges that retired said that they wanted nothing to do with government, then there was a way of dealing with it. You then retire and do not get discharged. Then you can do whatever you want to do but we do not have to pay you money. We cannot pay your full salary, a gratuity of R1,5 million, give you a new car after every five years and so on, and then there is just nothing you have to give up for it. The second issue is that, you know most of the work they are doing at the moment is arbitration work. Most people think that arbitration is not a problem. The problem is that arbitration work is at the top of commercial work in this country. What is happening is that all that top commercial work has been privatised out of the system, has been putted in arbitration and these judges are now sitting in those cases.

So, what they are doing is that the top civil work has been taken out of the courts, so there are no experienced judges to do that work anymore. There is no precedence being created because arbitration does not create precedence and, therefore, that law is being privatised outside the constitutional system. And we are giving permission for those judges to go and run that system, which undermines our civil justice system.

So, the implications of these things are huge with regard to our system and huge also in terms of our fiscus and so on. I think that when they raise these issues, let’s have them and let us have a debate. I mean we are happy to have the debate. If they want to let go of those privileges that the system has given them, that’s fine. Then they can go and do whatever else they want to. Then they are not judges for life. But if they want to be judges for life and get the money, then clearly they cannot do these other things. That is what the issues are.

Mr N J MACK: Deputy Minister, I’m now more confused and concerned. After these discharged judges had opted for four years, is there a process to still determine whether they have the capacity to do any cases? The other question would be: When they do extra work do they demand extra payment or salary for that, besides the money that they are already getting?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: No, obviously, as I’ve said, the system is so that everyone cannot just do it. The system is rigorous. Your head of the court, JSC and your Minister must agree to it. So between them surely they will pick up if the person hasn’t got the capacity.

Look, the times when people are called back, really is quite a unique case. It is where special skills are needed or, for example, where you get very long cases that are going to run on for a year or something. If you tie-up your own judges in that, it means there is a judge missing from the court at all times. And then, those cases for which they are brought in are also, of course, for commissions of inquiry that are invariably done or often done. It is such as in the case of Judge Hefer, who is already retired. So, they definitely have the capacity always to do the work.

The second question you ask: If they have been discharged do they still get their salary? Of course, any other work they do they get paid for. So, if you do a commission of inquiry as a judge you get two salaries. You get paid your discharge salary that you get in any case because the law says you can get it. And then because you are doing work, you get paid a second salary.

Now, that is why we changed the law to say only the JSC must give permission for the person to be able to do the work because we are paying the second salary. We would rather want to take on young people, put them on the Bench, let them learn the skills and then they would be something you can use in the future and save that money. But, any judge that has been discharged who then does work for the state gets a second salary. So, any commissioner of inquiry gets a double salary every month.

Mr S SHICEKA: Deputy Chair, everybody says: “Mm, Mm!” It is quite interesting. [Laughter.] Deputy Minister, the sad thing is that the judiciary in this country is seen as a holy cow in a way that nobody must criticise it and nobody must raise views around it. But, you find that sometimes it encroaches on the legislative arm of government as a whole in terms of their views and so on. You can see the judgments that have taken place.

However, it will be important that these discussions should be actually taken to the public, because the way things are at the moment, it is as if the government is interfering in the judiciary and the government is doing things wrong. This information that you are presenting to this House today is not known by the public out there. They always see that the government is interfering but without knowing all the facts at the disposal of the public so that the public can be able to form its own views.

There must probably be letters that are written to explain these issues, maybe on papers and so on, so that everybody knows what is happening in relation to the issues of the judges.

Minister, having said that, is this matter as agreed upon by the previous Minister Kobie Coetzee, sacrosanct? Is it to be with us for the rest of our lives or it is open to discussion or for review?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Look, I do think that we are a young democracy; and in young democracies one must be a little bit careful. Institutions are still fledglings, people are trying to find their feet and they are trying to get the right balance and so on. I think there is a good reason why we have been relatively careful, how we tackle different levels in different branches of government exactly, because it could send out wrong messages and so on, which are just not intended. But I think as our democracy matures, it is very important that we engage each other so that we do not talk in dark corners somewhere and so on. We must do so when it comes to the judiciary.

I think one thing I’m always very careful about with regard to the judiciary is that we must not respond to it on an emotional level, particularly in court cases, and in this country particularly with the issue of race. Often when you read about a court case and you hear that something happened, and the judge is of one colour and the accused is another colour, or the victim was another colour then we jump to a whole lot of conclusions. I do think that when we want to comment on those issue we need to get all the facts.

You know, there is a famous case here of the farmer who shot a boy whom he thought to be a dog. When I spoke to the prosecuting authority – and I rely on my information from the prosecuting authority – the picture that is out in the public is completely different from the facts that the prosecuting authority has. I mean they say that this little boy and this farmer were very close. Every single day when the farmer came in, the little boy would drive with him and he would be all over the farm with him. And in fact, the farm labourers were with him and they were looking for a dog that slaughtered some sheep and other things. When they were going, in fact the aunt of the little boy shouted: “There is a dog!” Then the farmer shot where they had said and when they got there, they saw the little boy lying there. The farmer was actually completely devastated, according to the prosecuting authority.

Now when you hear this case and someone is saying a little black boy is a dog – the media has taken that in a certain way and people have commented in a certain way. But, when you speak to the prosecuting authority and why they accepted the plea and so on, is because they spoke to all the labourers and so on and said this is what happened. I mean, in fact, that farmer was with them and was looking for this dog.

So, you see, that is the problem when we are commenting on what we do not always have facts for. I am one that says we must engage with the judiciary and the magistracy. But we have to do it from an informed basis and with informed facts, because most judges in this country are doing a good job. They are working hard. The magistrates are also working hard, and so on. They are fully committed to making this country work, and so on. Maybe there are one or two who aren’t, but we should not, of course, paint everything with one brush.

I think that as our democracy matures, we will definitely be able to deal with these things more robustly and more effectively but in a very balanced way. As far as whether this will exist – well you know we’ve got a clause in this wonderful Constitution of ours somewhere which says that the salaries of the judiciary is entrenched. As far as that system is concerned it is entrenched in our Constitution at the time when we signed it. If there is any discussion on whether that should change or not, then we need to embark and hold discussion where we would want to amend the Constitution.

But whatever we do in the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development, we would not want to do it without creating certain protections, and one of them is the security of tenure. Your judges must never make you feel that you would lose your job because you are not doing something that government wanted you to do.

Secondly, there must be financial security. They must get a good, decent salary, but of course it also mustn’t be a possibility you can take away arbitrarily. So if we want to enter into any discussions, there are certain principles of separations of powers that we have to stick to and make sure that we do not undermine those in the process.

But I don’t think anything should stop Parliament from engaging in balanced and rational debates about our relationship with the judiciary and what should be done and not.

On the last issue you raised, on whether there is intrusion into policy matters, I think sometimes the courts do this. In my own personal view, I think there is a line that is difficult to draw regarding where you stop and where you start with policy. Obviously, therefore, there could be an instance in which I may feel or you may feel that they haven’t been true in terms of policy issues, and others may feel differently about them.

But again, there is a debate that we should be having and we should be rational about it and we should do it in a balanced way. So I don’t want to be misunderstood. I do think we should be engaging it. Our democracy is now 14 years old and we will become more mature, and whatever we do, we must do it in a way that the judiciary does not feel that the debate is threatening them somehow; they must be part of the debate, of course.

Departmental policy in relation to reformational versus rehabilitative approach

1. Mr Z C Ntuli (ANC) asked the Minister of Correctional Services:

   (1) What is his department’s policy or strategy in view of the former Inspecting Judge of Prisons’ reported preference for a reformational approach as opposed to rehabilitative approach of the prisoner;

   (2) whether he will make a statement on the matter? CO1787E

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy Chairperson, hon Ntuli, the Department of Correctional Services has placed rehabilitation at the centre of all its activities. After a series of in-depth discussions and debate in various forums, the process of conceptualising this rehabilitation culminated in the White Paper on Corrections in South Africa which presents a new vision in line with its legal mandates: the department must balance safe and humane custody and rehabilitation.

Government has tasked the department with a key role in crime prevention, namely that of preventing reoffending and of breaking the crime cycle. Rehabilitation is an internationally accepted concept and a useful guide to the conduct of Correctional Services in South Africa. It’s provided by the Bill of Rights, as well as section 35(2) of the Constitution. In the context of corrections in South Africa, rehabilitation is understood as the creation of an enabling environment where a human rights culture is upheld, reconciliation, forgiveness and healing are facilitated and offenders are encouraged and assisted to discard negative values and adopt and develop positive ones which are acceptable to society.

Finally, hon Ntuli also asked if I would make a statement on this. Rehabilitation is not merely persuading offenders not to do crime again. It is equipping offenders with the skills and motivation to be good citizens and active anticrime agents in their communities. Rehabilitation is a fundamental part of government’s crime prevention strategy aimed at developing social stability in South Africa. The members of the Department of Correctional Services should work in partnership with the community and offenders to realise this vision. Thank you.

Role of Justice, Crime Prevention and Security meetings in the delivery of justice to society

1. Mr S Shiceka (ANC) asked the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:

   Whether the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security cluster meetings are assisting in the delivery of justice to the society; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?

           CO1789E
   

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Deputy Chairperson, I thank the hon member for the question. The meetings of the JCPS cluster are very important in assessing the rate and level of service delivery.

The cluster system was always informed by the desire to ensure that there is an integrated manner in which service delivery is provided by all departments. Such integration ensures that the public is provided with a wide range of services through processes that take into account the fact that services must be delivered in a manner that result in little hardship for communities and is as easily accessible as possible.

The JCPS cluster, therefore, does a number of things in order to ensure delivery. One of the things it does is to forge partnerships with various stakeholders on a wide range of issues. These partnerships give stakeholders an opportunity to make inputs in government processes. I therefore invite the hon member to obtain more information about the cluster in order to learn more about the activities thereof in meeting the objective of government’s programme of action. Therefore, I answer your question with a very positive yes.

Mr S SHICEKA: Deputy Chairperson, thank you, Deputy Minister, for the response. Of course the question that I would like to ask as a follow-up is whether there is any monitoring mechanism to check the functionality of these structures across the country in various provinces? Not only that, but also to look at the institutional arrangement whether, at the subnational level, they are functioning properly and involving all role- players. You find in some areas provincial government says they are not involved, they are not participating and so on and therefore the chairpersonship is sometimes a bit of an issue.

In addition to that, are these structures going to be taken to a local government level, at a level where there are districts or at a level of a metro, so that even local government as an institution and as a structure, which is responsible for government at that level, participates and interacts with the JCPS cluster?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: I think you’ve put your finger on a big problem in any criminal justice system in the world. The problem with criminal justice systems is that they run across a whole lot of departments. You get police, and the police have detectives and forensic units. Then you have the prosecuting authority, magistrates, judges, the Legal Aid Board and some things to do with social development, even with education. The system runs across all these spheres. The departments are organised downwards from the top with the Minister at the top, then the laws and so on. The problems really arise in-between.

In most democracies you find that, over time, traditions develop and conventions develop in-between and that glues it together. In a new democracy, like ours, that isn’t there. The second issue, therefore, is then how do you do this? Most countries in the world just let this system run and plod along as it goes. Because the system exists, people go to work every day and they do something, but there is no co-ordination and management of this system – the system, not the departments, the criminal justice system as a whole. My own view about it, and others may have a completely wrong view, is that the cluster system doesn’t work too well together yet, because we still operate as departments. You get very few projects where you actually get people across departments running the project. You’ll get that this department is responsible for the project and the rest of us fit into it.

Those things are things that we’ve learnt and we are starting to do that better. We have had a lot of discussion. In fact today we had four or more hours of discussion, spending time on this specific item. You are quite right that we will now be looking at this issue of whether we shouldn’t actually be creating a structure that looks at the criminal justice system. This new structure should run right from the top to the bottom, so that people can feed issues and information into this system and you can escalate problems upwards to the top of the system. At the moment that does not happen. If it’s a cross-cutting issue you can forget about it.

What also happens is that there is no accountability, because if this one does something wrong they blame that one. In the criminal justice system you get lots of blaming. Soon this one is blaming that one and that one and that one, because we don’t have all synergies there. If we had a structure where we can co-ordinate and manage, that will work very, very differently. I think those are the issues.

The other problem you raised is a big problem. The criminal justice system on the whole is a national competence. There is a little bit of policing in the provinces, but the rest of it - Justice, the National Prosecuting Authority, Correctional Services and the SA Police Service - are all national functions. Yet, a lot of programmes we create deal with the issue of children, for example. Secure care facilities are a provincial responsibility. There is a problem of disjuncture. When you are creating alternative services and they are being created in the provinces, then you have a problem where you’re actually harmonising that and making sure that the budgets in the provinces actually reflect the services. I think from your questions that you have asked, you can see that we are grappling with these issues. What are the best solutions? As I have said to you, there are very few countries in the world that actually have been dealing with this. Britain is one of them. You can go and check and do some reading on the UK. They have now created such a structure which is quite interesting in the way it works and so on. Those are the things we are looking at - the structures, how we make sure that provinces actually do provide the services in the criminal justice system, if they are not part of it how do they become part of the structure and how do we try and co- ordinate and manage that system? Those are all things that we are trying to look at.

   Consideration of members of nonstatutory forces left out during
                       demobilisation process

1. Mr S Shiceka (ANC) asked the Minister of Defence:

   Whether any members of the nonstatutory forces who were left out during the demobilisation process will be considered by his department; if not, why not; if so, by when will this be done?

           CO1794E
   

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Madam Chairperson, in reply to hon Shiceka’s question, there was a call for all former nonstatutory force members to register their names on the Certified Personnel Register before the integration process began. The CPR was meant to be the only document to provide a guide on the number of the nonstatutory force members to be integrated into the SA National Defence Force. Members were given options of whether to integrate into SANDF or to apply for the demobilisation package. Some did apply for the package and some integrated into the new force.

It became clear, however, that when the CPR list was finally drawn up not all members had registered their names. Some approached the department on an individual basis and were advised to apply for posts that were available depending on the requirements of the particular post. Some applied to be in the reserve force and they were accommodated.

The department is presently not integrating any former nonstatutory force members as the process was terminated by the Termination of Integration Intake, Act 44 of 2001, except for members who were granted amnesty by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

You will realise, Mr Shiceka, that the SANDF, as I said in my previous answer, is in the process of rejuvenating; and it is one structure that takes in very young people. You will notice that in our recruitment drive we are taking 4 000 every year and we are taking between 18 and 22 years. We are hoping that next year we will be taking 6 000, and from 2009 we will be taking 10 000 a year. So, you can see that we are in the process of rejuvenating our defence force by taking in young people.

If you look at the people who were not integrated, then you’ll find that some of them left in 1976. So, you would assume that when they left, some of them were between 16 and 17 years of age. You can imagine how old they are now. They are probably old men now, because in Defence, once you are more than 23 years of age you are considered to be an old man, and we don’t employ any old people in the Department of Defence. [Interjections.] That is why we cannot integrate those people. Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Madam Chairperson, arising from the Minister’s reply, can I find out if, as rightly said and conceded, there are those who unfortunately did not register? Can those young men and women who camped somewhere in KwaZulu-Natal on one of the farms, and who claim that they duly qualify to be part of the contingents, be part of the process? What has been done by the department to address that particular issue, because there seems to be a structure that was not co-ordinated properly and some people were a bit violent?

I want to find out from the Deputy Minister if something has been done in that regard.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Well, I don’t want to talk much about those things, because I can see that some of them are candidates for the Correctional Services. [Laughter.] They are the candidates of the Minister of Correctional Services because of some of the things that they are doing. For instance, we realise – like we are saying - that some were not integrated and we are again registering some of them in the reserve force. And, of course, we are also busy trying to see what we can do for them as military veterans, but insofar as integrating them into the SANDF, it is out of the question. We don’t even want to create an impression that there could be a possibility for that because the SANDF cannot take old people. Once someone is in the age bracket of say 40 or 30 they are considered as old men in the SANDF. Even if you are 30, you cannot join the defence force. You can go and join the Department of Correctional Services and other departments where old people are employed. [Laughter.]

However, those people who are camping there at Ngwavuma have claimed to be everything. They have claimed to be members of MK and it was said, “No, no, no. Kahleni kancane.” [Wait a bit.] Some of them claimed that they belong to the IFP and the IFP said: “No, kahleni kancane – asinazi.” [Wait a bit – we don’t know you.] So, we actually don’t know who they belong to. But there is one thing that we are clear about, and it is that they are now in the process of committing crimes because of what they are doing while sitting there making threats to the state. That in itself is committing a crime and it cannot be allowed. Most of us have gone to KZN and various provinces, talking to the people and discussing these matters with them and doing whatever we could do to take them through the process of being part of the society.

What cannot be done and cannot be tolerated is people sitting somewhere in the corners and threatening government and everybody. So, we are dealing with that matter on that basis, and I believe that they are candidates for Correctional Services, because of the way in which they are behaving.

Steps to address personnel shortage for supervision of offenders released into community supervision

1. Mr A L Moseki (ANC) asked the Minister of Correctional Services:

   Whether his department is addressing the personnel shortage for the supervision of offenders released into community supervision; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, how urgently is this being done? CO1797E

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Chairperson. Hon Moseki, one of the flagships of the Department of Correctional Services is correctional supervision.

Correctional supervision is one area that is very important for the management of overcrowding at our correctional centres and also for diverting those people who may not be a danger to society to correctional supervision, or what we call community correction. At the moment we are doing all we can to revamp that kind of community correction so that it can lend itself to the rehabilitation process and policies that we are holding on to.

We are indeed addressing a number of issues at community corrections such as the vacancy rate. I hope by the end of this term, that is, up to September, we will have done quite a lot in revamping them. The new Commissioner of Correctional Services is seized with ensuring that community corrections work and to meet up with judiciary and the magistracy so that they can also have confidence in community corrections and to diverting of people that are probationers as well as those that get paroled.

Therefore, I can assure you that this is quite urgent to us and we will keep you informed with this type of revamping. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

Mr S SHICEKA: Madam Deputy Chair, you will agree with me – I think even the Ministers will agree with us – that this cluster has engaged them. That’s value for money today. Very strongly too!

The concept of community corrections and community supervisions is a good one. However, I would think that it’s important that the department begins to mobilise communities to play a role in relation to debriefing offenders when they come out of jail.

What are we doing here? What are the developments? At the same time it plays a role even in ensuring that the offenders or ex-offenders are not breaking the law, because they are part of the community. I think that has to happen. If there is an idea around that from the department, how soon do you think that you will take that up?

Secondly, if one is stays at Qunu or Empangeni and happens to be under community correction but wants to get a job in Johannesburg – and before one comes to Johannesburg, one would need to be trained in Johannesburg – is that person allowed to do that and get permission that will allow him or her to stay in Johannesburg and study? One is not confined to that area because in terms of the law he or she is required to be checked every now and then by the correctional officials. What happens in that situation in a way that encourages people to be productive?

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you very much, Madam Chair. If I should start with the last question: There are different levels of people that get released on parole. Those levels are determined by the sentence one was doing and also by the parole board and one’s behaviour as well. Therefore, if one gets out of jail and is on parole and gets a job in Johannesburg and one comes from Beaufort West, community corrections in Beaufort West will look at a number of things in one’s documents and be able to say to community corrections in Johannesburg, parolee so-and-so is coming there, he or she has a job and has a place to live. Can we hand him or her over to you? When one gets to the other side, the kind of supervision that one was getting in Beaufort West will be the kind of supervision that one will get in Johannesburg. Therefore, one can go out of one’s magisterial district, but with permission. If that doesn’t happen with permission, one should write a letter to the parole board and community corrections and tell them that he or she has found a job in such place and that he or she will be staying at that place. They are able to do that.

I’m sure this answers your last question, hon member. We do not want to disadvantage any of the ex-offenders by tying them down to a place where they can’t get a job. But first we’ve got to have confirmation that he or she has got the job. That will make our lives much easier.

The issue of community correction is happening now, hon member. There are some parole boards that are headed by people who are not employed by Correctional Services. We have employed chairpersons and deputy chairpersons of parole boards. They are at the forefront of mobilising communities, ensuring that if offender Ngconde Balfour is going to be released they do the groundwork of going to that family and ensuring that everybody there knows what’s going to happen. Then the same Ngconde Balfour is informed: This is the way we are going to deal with you and this is the way we are going to supervise you. That should be known so that even the community can assist us in helping this particular parolee.

So, there is community correction that is going on right now. We’ve asked area commissioners and regional commissioners to go out to communities and explain how we intend revamping this whole community corrections how we are going to ensure that it does the work that it is intended to do to supervise and to ensure that an offender goes from that level because after some time you are then taken up to other levels where we don’t have to supervise you every day. We can now see you after a month, and no longer every two weeks. So, you do graduate if your behaviour is going well. You do graduate until you finish your term. Therefore, those things are in process everywhere where we have parolees and probationers. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Mr N J MACK: Madam Chair, maybe this is a naughty question. Minister, when we rehabilitate these people when they are out on parole we actually say we did a good job of sending them out of jail. But when they apply for work at our own centres, then we don’t accept them because they have a criminal record. This is on every form where they apply for jobs. The problem is that if we don’t accept them, how can we say that we have done a good job? Is that issue not a contradiction, hon Minister?

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Yes, it is, hon member. But we have to take society with us. Remember that the approach we have taken is new. So, people have to buy in into that.

We have just recently released Mthobeli Mzanywa from Fort Glamorgan Prison. He has served 22 years of his life sentence. He is now 58 years old. We started with the social reintegration to see to it that members of his family do accept him back into their fold. That was fine. The community also accepted him back in their fold.

At 58 years, he was surely not going to find a job. We had to ensure that the Department of Social Development helps us to look after him because he has an old mother. In the process, we tried and eventually got him a job. He is now working. I’m quite happy to meet with him and bump into him. He is a family person now. He has just got himself a wife and is doing well.

On 20 August 2007, a young woman started to work in my office. She is an ex- offender. She was supposed to do 12 years and she has done 10 years. She’s got an LLB. She’s here across the road, at level 4, and working there. This, because we are saying we have to do it ourselves first.

In terms of government Z83 forms, I think what is needed even with the recruits is something that asks: Have you had a criminal record? I think every country should have that; I have no problem with that, but it’s up to the person to declare. I know, sometimes when you declare something, people would look at it and say: No ways! That’s the problem that we are facing.

Bathi sisigebenga esi. [People will say this is a criminal.]

We are not going to employ this person. But we need to do more to talk to our colleagues and other people and persuade them that if they don’t give them that second chance; who will? You’ve got to do that to try and give them that second chance. It might happen that this was the first offence for that person - a genuine mistake. I’m not saying when they murder people it is mistakes, but sometimes it was not that bad. So, you need to give them that second chance, because if we don’t want to employ them then we are going to have a problem. They are going to go back to prison.

So, I’m pleading with everybody. We are doing this in our department; we are trying our best to employ them as much as possible but also to set up some co-operatives so that they can work as a group just like you saw the other day in Khayelitsha. All the Department of Housing, the SABC and the local government wanted from us was: Correctional Services, can you give us labour? And they were right and that house should be finished by 31 August. They are building a house for a very, very disadvantaged young mother of about 40 who is blind.

In some of these I do want to make the call that we are not a contractor. We don’t do tenders and contract up, but whenever there are churches to build – we’ve just finished a church in Gugulethu – please do ask us as Correctional Services to give you the labour. You won’t pay, we pay them a stipend. Those guys look forward, as they were telling me the other day, to going to work. They really look forward to that – going to work and being able to pay back something into the communities. So, I’m making that plea: let’s give them that opportunity to do what they think they can do best to assist and to atone for whatever they have done. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Madam Chairperson, on behalf of this cluster we want to thank the hon Minister for responding to our questions frankly and honestly. Knowing him as a man of God and as one of the best motivational speakers this country has ever had, how can he motivate and change the attitude of some parents who refuse to accept their own kids who are ex- offenders?

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Madam Chairperson, it’s a call that we need to be making to all parents. We are saying that rehabilitation is a societal responsibility and that it starts with the family. A call should be made not only to parents who have children in prison or in correctional centres, but also to parents who don’t look after their own children well. That is the kind of call we should be making. It pains one to see a 14-year- old girl in a correctional centre, and one wonders where her parents are, what they are saying, how she landed up there, what type of parents they are. So, we need to make that call.

I think the appeal we can make, as public representatives, is that people should look after their children so that they don’t end up in correctional centres. It becomes quite painful to see that. I’m not saying some of them are angels. Not all of them are angels. Some of them have committed serious crimes, but again we need to have that kind of a net to catch them and to be able to return them back to society so that they can become the proper children that we want. So, that call is the call that all of us should be making. Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Order! I take this opportunity to thank Minister Balfour, Deputy Minister George and the Deputy Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development for all the educational and informative contributions to the debate.

See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.

The Council adjourned at 17:01. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

                       THURSDAY, 22 JUNE 2007

ANNOUNCEMENTS National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism

(1)     The Joint Tagging Mechanism, in terms of Joint Rule 160(6),
     classified the following Bills as section 76 Bills:


     (a)     Traditional Health Practitioners Bill [B 20 – 2007]
         (National Council of Provinces – sec 76(2)).


     (b)     Choice on Termination of Pregnancy Amendment Bill [B 21 –
         2007] (National Council of Provinces – sec 76(2)).

(2)     The Joint Tagging Mechanism also classified the Traditional
     Health Practitioners Bill [B 20 – 2007] as a Bill falling within
     the ambit of section 18(1)(a) of the Traditional Leadership and
     Governance Framework Act, 2003 (Act No 41 of 2003).

1. Translations of Bills submitted

 (1)    The Minister of Health


     (a)     Wysigingswetsontwerp op Gesondheidsberoepe [W 10 – 2006]
         (National Assembly – sec 75).
     This is the official translation into Afrikaans of the Health
     Professions Amendment Bill [B 10 – 2006] (National Assembly – sec
     75), as introduced in Parliament.

     (b)     Wysigingswetsontwerp op die Beheer van Tabakprodukte [W 24
         – 2006] (National Assembly – sec 75).

     This is the official translation into Afrikaans of the Tobacco
     Products Control Amendment Bill [B 24 – 2006] (National Assembly –
     sec 75), as introduced in Parliament.

                        MONDAY, 25 JUNE 2007

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Referral of Bill to National House of Traditional Leaders

a) The Secretary to Parliament has, on 25 June 2007 in accordance with
   section 18(1) of the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework
   Act, 2003 (Act No 41 of 2003), referred the Traditional Health
   Practitioners Bill [B 20 – 2007] (National Council of Provinces (sec
   76 (2)) to the National House of Traditional Leaders, which must,
   within 30 days from the date of this referral, make any comments it
   wishes to make. TABLINGS

National Council of Provinces

1. The Chairperson

 (a)    The President of the Republic submitted the following letter
     dated 13 June 2007 to the Chairperson of the National Council of
     Provinces, informing Members of the Council of the employment of
     the South African National Defence Force in Uganda:


     EMPLOYMENT OF THE SOUTH AFRICAN NATIONAL DEFENCE FORCE IN UGANDA
     FOR SERVICE IN FULFILMENT OF THE INTERNATIONAL OBLIGATIONS OF THE
     REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA TOWARDS THE UNION


     This serves to inform the National Council of Provinces that I
     have authorised the employment of the South African National
     Defence Force (SANDF) personnel to Uganda, in fulfilment of the
     international obligations of the Republic of South Africa towards
     the African Union (AU), as part of the AU Mission in Northern
     Uganda.


     This employment was authorised in accordance with the provisions
     of section 201(2)(c) of the Constitution of the Republic of South
     Africa, 1996, read with section 93 of the Defence Act, 2002 (Act
     No 42 of 2002).


     A total of five SANDF members are employed from 01 June 2007 to 31
     March 2008 as military observers in the AU Mission in Northern
     Uganda.


     I will communicate this report to members of the National Assembly
     and wish to request that you bring the contents hereof to the
     attention of the National Council of Provinces.


     Regards


     signed
     THABO MBEKI

                       WEDNESDAY, 27 JUNE 2007

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Assent by President in respect of Bill

 (a)    South African Airways Bill [B 35B – 2006] – Act No 5 of 2007
     (assented to and signed by President on 14 June 2007)

COMMITTEE REPORTS National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

CREDA INSERT - T070627-insert1 – PAGES 1394-1448

CREDA INSERT - T070627-insert2 – PAGES 1449-1453

                        FRIDAY, 29 JUNE 2007

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Introduction of Bills

 (1)    The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development


       a) Constitution Thirteenth Amendment Bill [B 24 – 2007]
          (National Assembly – proposed sec 74) [Bill published in
          Government Gazette No 29910 of 25 May 2007.]


          Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on
          Justice and Constitutional Development of the National
          Assembly, as well as referral to the Joint Tagging Mechanism
          (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint Rule 160, on 29
          June 2007.


          In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the
          classification of the Bill may be submitted to the Joint
          Tagging Mechanism (JTM) within three parliamentary working
          days.

 (2)    The Minister for Provincial and Local Government


       a) Cross-Boundary Municipalities Laws Repeal and Related Matters
          Amendment Bill [B 25 – 2007] (National Assembly – proposed
          sec 75) [Explanatory summary of Bill published in Government
          Gazette No 29992 of 15 June 2007.]


          Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on
          Provincial and Local Government of the National Assembly, as
          well as referral to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for
          classification in terms of Joint Rule 160, on 29 June 2007.


          In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the
          classification of the Bill may be submitted to the Joint
          Tagging Mechanism (JTM) within three parliamentary working
          days.

TABLINGS

National Council of Provinces

1. The Chairperson

(1)     Written comments received from the public and provincial
    legislatures on the Constitution Thirteenth Amendment Bill [B 24 -
    2007] (National Assembly – proposed sec 74), submitted by the
    Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development in terms of
    section 74(6)(b) of the Constitution, 1996.

        Referred to the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional
    Affairs.

                         MONDAY, 2 JULY 2007

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Finance

 (a)    Agreement between the Government of Sweden and the Government of
     the Republic of South Africa on Development Co-operation 1 July
     2004 – 30 June 2007, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the
     Constitution, 1996.

 (b)    Explanatory Memorandum on the Agreement between the Government
     of Sweden and the Government of the Republic of South Africa on
     Development Co-operation 1 July 2004 – 30 June 2007.

 (c)    Government Notice No R. 478 published in Government Gazette No
     29958 dated 1 June 2007: Rules made by the Minister of Finance
     under section 771 of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91
     of 1964).

 (d)    Government Notice No R. 484 published in Government Gazette No
     29951 dated 8 June 2007: Amendment of Schedule No 1 (No 1/1/1337)
     in terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).

 (e)    Government Notice No R. 485 published in Government Gazette No
     29951 dated 8 June 2007: Amendment of Schedule No 3 (No 3/612) in
     terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).

 (f)    Government Notice No R. 486 published in Government Gazette No
     29951 dated 8 June 2007: Amendment of Schedule No 4 (No 4/306) in
     terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).

2. The Minister of Safety and Security


a) Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and
   the Government of the Republic of Malta in respect of Police
   Cooperation, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution,
   1996.

National Council of Provinces

1. The Chairperson (a) Written statement submitted in terms of section 106(3) of the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act, 2000 (Act No 32 of 2000): Maquassi Local Municipality by the North West MEC for Developmental Local Government and Housing.

   Referred to the Select Committee on Local Government and Administration.

                      FRIDAY, 6 JULY 2007
   

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Introduction of Bill

 (1)    The Minister for Public Enterprises
      a) Broadband Infraco Bill [B 26 – 2007] (National Assembly –
         proposed sec 75) [Bill published in Government Gazette No
         29879 of 11 May 2007.]


         Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on Public
         Enterprises of the National Assembly, as well as referral to
         the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms
         of Joint Rule 160, on 29 June 2007.


         In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification
         of the Bill may be submitted to the Joint Tagging Mechanism
         (JTM) within three parliamentary working days.

1. Assent by President in respect of Bill

 (a)    Convention on International Interests in Mobile Equipment Bill
     [B 1 – 2007] – Act No 4 of 2007 (assented to and signed by
     President on 29 June 2007).

National Council of Provinces

The Chairperson

1. The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Finance for consideration and report:

 (a)    Convention between the Government of the Republic of South
     Africa and the Swiss Confederation for the Avoidance of Double
     Taxation with respect to Taxes on Income, tabled in terms of
     section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.


 (b)    Explanatory Memorandum to the Convention between the Government
     of the Republic of South Africa and the Swiss Confederation for
     the Avoidance of Double Taxation with respect to Taxes on Income.

 (c)    Convention between the Government of the Republic of South
     Africa and the Government of the Portuguese Republic for the
     Avoidance of Double Taxation with respect to Taxes on Income,
     tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.

 (d)    Explanatory Memorandum to the Convention between the Government
     of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the
     Portuguese Republic for the Avoidance of Double Taxation with
     respect to Taxes on Income.

 (e)    Convention between the Government of the Republic of South
     Africa and the Government of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia for the
     Avoidance of Double Taxation with respect to Taxes on Income,
     tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.

 (f)    Explanatory Memorandum to the Convention between the Government
     of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Kingdom
     of Saudi Arabia for the Avoidance of Double Taxation with respect
     to Taxes on Income.

1. The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs and the Joint Standing Committee on Defence:

 (a)    The President of the Republic submitted a letter dated 13 June
     2007 to the Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces
     informing Members of the Council of the employment of the South
     African National Defence Force in Uganda.

1. The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Finance:

 (a)    Proclamation No R.12 published in Government Gazette No 29921
     dated 1 June 2007: Fixing a date on which section 147(1) of the
     Revenue Laws Amendment Act, 2003 (Act No 45 of 2003), shall come
     into operation.

 (b)    Government Notice No 467 published in Government Gazette No
     29913 dated 1 June 2007: Definition of “Retirement Annuity Fund”
     in section 1 of the Income Tax Act, 1962 (Act No 58 of 1962).

 (c)    Government Notice No 472 published in Government Gazette No
     29913 dated 1 June 2007: Proviso to paragraph 9(3) of the Fourth
     Schedule to the Income Tax Act, 1962 (Act No 58 of 1962).

1. The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs:

 (a)    Proclamation No R.7 published in Government Gazette No 29831
     dated 25 April 2007: Referral of matters to existing Special
     Investigating Unit and Special Tribunal, in terms of the Special
     Investigating Units and Special Tribunals Act, 1996 (Act No 74 of
     1996).

 (b)    Proclamation No R.10 published in Government Gazette No 29831
     dated 25 April 2007: Extension of the period of operation of
     sections 51 and 52, in terms of the Criminal Law Amendment Act,
     1997 (Act No 105 of 1997).

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Finance

 (a)    Explanatory Memorandum to the Diamond Export Levy Bill, 2007.

 (b)    Government Notice No R.492 published in Government Gazette No
     29966 dated 15 June 2007: Municipal Regulations on Debt
     Disclosure, in terms of section 168 of the Local Government:
     Municipal Finance Management Act, 2003 (Act No 56 of 2003).

 (c)    Government Notice No R.493 published in Government Gazette No
     29967 dated 15 June 2007: Municipal Regulations on Minimum
     Competency Levels, in terms of section 168 of the Local
     Government: Municipal Finance Management Act, 2003 (Act No 56 of
     2003).

1. The Minister of Transport

 (a)    Report and Financial Statements of the Urban Transport Fund
     (UTF) for 2005-2006, including the Report of the Auditor-General
     on the Financial Statements for 2005-2006 [RP 45-2007].

National Council of Provinces

The Chairperson

1. The Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, as the Chairperson of the Rules Committee of the Council, presents the First Report of the Rules Committee of the National Council of Provinces, dated 5 July 2007, as follows:

   To amend the following rules by insertion of the underlined words.

      Establishment
   
      147 (1) The Committee on Petitions and Members’ Legislative
      Proposals consists of one Council member from each province
      designated by the delegation head.
   
   
   
      Chairperson
      148. (1)  The Committee on Petitions and Members’ Legislative
      Proposals must elect one of its members as the chairperson of
      the committee.
   
   
   
      Functions and powers
   
      149. (1) The Committee on Petitions and Members’ Legislative
      Proposals must consider and make recommendations to the
      Council on all legislative proposals made by Council
      Decisions
      150. A question before the Committee on Petitions and Members’
      Legislative Proposals is agreed when at least five provinces
      vote in favour of the question.
   
   
      Referral of proposals to Committee on Petitions and Members’
      Legislative Proposals
      179. (1) The Chairperson of the Council must refer the
      member’s memorandum to the Committee on Petitions and Members’
      Legislative Proposals.
   
   
      Council’s consideration of proposal
      180. (1) The member’s memorandum and the recommendation of the
      Committee on Petitions and Members’ Legislative Proposals, ...
   
   
      Referral of petitions to committees
      234. After tabling a petition in the Council, the Chairperson
      of the Council must refer the petition to the Select Committee
      on Petitions and Members’ Legislative Proposals.
   
                     FRIDAY, 27 JULY 2007
   

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Draft Bills submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159

(a)     Rental Housing Amendment Bill, 2007, submitted by the Minister
     of Housing. Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Housing and the
     Select Committee on Public Services.


(b)     Social Housing Bill, 2007, submitted by the Minister of
     Housing. Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Housing and the
     Select Committee on Public Services.


(c)     Local Government Laws Amendment Bill, 2007, submitted by the
     Minister for Provincial and Local Government. Referred to the
     Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local Government and the
     Select Committee on Local Government and Administration.


(d)     National Gambling Amendment Bill, 2007, submitted by the
     Minister of Trade and Industry. Referred to the Portfolio
     Committee on Trade and Industry and the Select Committee on
     Economic and Foreign Affairs.

1. Introduction of Bills

 (1)    The Minister of Transport


     (a)     Transport Agencies General Laws Amendment Bill [B 27 –
          2007] (National Assembly – proposed sec 75) [Bill published in
          Government Gazette No 30115 of 24 July 2007.]


          Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on
          Transport of the National Assembly, as well as referral to
          the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms
          of Joint Rule 160.


          In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the
          classification of the Bill may be submitted to the Joint
          Tagging Mechanism (JTM) within three parliamentary working
          days.


 (2)    The Minister for Provincial and Local Government


     (a)     Local Government Laws Amendment Bill [B 28 – 2007]
          (National Assembly – proposed sec 75) [Bill published in
          Government Gazette No 30034 of 2 July 2007.]


          Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on
          Provincial and Local Government of the National Assembly, as
          well as referral to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for
          classification in terms of Joint Rule 160.


          In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the
          classification of the Bill may be submitted to the Joint
          Tagging Mechanism (JTM) within three parliamentary working
          days.


 (3)    The Minister of Housing


     (a)     Social Housing Bill [B 29 – 2007] (National Assembly –
          proposed sec 76) [Bill published in Government Gazette No
          30022 of 6 July 2007.]
         Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on
         Housing of the National Assembly, as well as referral to the
         Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of
         Joint Rule 160.


         In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification
         of the Bill may be submitted to the Joint Tagging Mechanism
         (JTM) within three parliamentary working days.


 (4)    The Minister of Housing


     (a)     Rental Housing Amendment Bill [B 30 – 2007] (National
          Assembly – proposed sec 76) [Bill published in Government
          Gazette No 30022 of 6 July 2007.]


          Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on
          Housing of the National Assembly, as well as referral to the
          Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of
          Joint Rule 160.


          In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the
          classification of the Bill may be submitted to the Joint
          Tagging Mechanism (JTM) within three parliamentary working
          days.


 (5)    The Minister of Trade and Industry


       a) National Gambling Amendment Bill [B 31 – 2007] (National
          Assembly – proposed sec 76) [Bill published in Government
          Gazette No 30124 of 26 July 2007.]
          Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on Trade
          and Industry of the National Assembly, as well as referral to
          the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms
          of Joint Rule 160.


          In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the
          classification of the Bill may be submitted to the Joint
          Tagging Mechanism (JTM) within three parliamentary working
          days.


 (6)    The Minister of Correctional Services


     (a)     Correctional Services Amendment Bill [B 32 – 2007]
          (National Assembly – proposed sec 75) [Bill published in
          Government Gazette No 29893 of 18 May 2007.]


          Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on
          Correctional Services of the National Assembly, as well as
          referral to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for
          classification in terms of Joint Rule 160.


          In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the
          classification of the Bill may be submitted to the Joint
          Tagging Mechanism (JTM) within three parliamentary working
          days.

1. Membership of Committees

(1)     The following changes have been made to the membership of Joint
    Committees:

    Budget
    Appointed:     Gumede, Mr D M (Alt); September, Ms C (Alt); Sotyu,
              Ms M (Alt); Tsenoli, Mr S L (Alt); Zita, Mr L (Alt)
    Defence
    Appointed:     Ngwenya, Ms W
    Discharged:    Matsemela, Ms M L

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson

(a)     Repositioning Strategy of the Financial and Fiscal Commission
    (FFC) for 2007-2010.

1. The Minister of Finance

(a)     Report and Financial Statements of the Financial Services Board
    on the Road Accident Fund for 2005-2006.

(b)     Government Notice No 503 published in Government Gazette No
    29984 dated 14 June 2007: Amendment of Schedule No 2 (2/290) in
    terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).

1. The Minister of Transport

(a)     International Convention for the Control and Management of
    Ship’s Ballast Water and Sediments – 2004 (Ballast Water Management
    Convention), tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution,
    1996.


(b)     Explanatory Memorandum to the International Convention for the
    Control and Management of Ship’s Ballast Water and Sediments – 2004
    (Ballast Water Management Convention).

(c)     Report of the Railway Safety Regulator for 2005-2006 [RP 7-
    2007].

1. The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development

(a)     Government Notice No R.451 published in Government Gazette No
    29898 dated 25 May 2007: Notice under section 47A(6) in terms of
    the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act, 1995 (Act
    No 34 of 1995).

(b)     Government Notice No R.466 published in Government Gazette No
    29914 dated 1 June 2007: Regulations regarding promotion of access
    to information: Amendment of Regulations, in terms of the Promotion
    of Access to Information Act, 2000 (Act No 2 of 2000).

(c)     Report of the Railway Safety Regulator for 2005-2006 [RP 7-
    2007].

1. The Minister of Minerals and Energy (a) Accession to the Framework Agreement for the International Collaboration on Research and Development of Generation IV Nuclear Energy Systems, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.

(b)     Explanatory Memorandum to the Accession to the Framework
    Agreement for the International Collaboration on Research and
    Development of Generation IV Nuclear Energy Systems.

National Council of Provinces

1. The Chairperson

(a)     Written comments submitted in terms of section 74(6)(b) of the
    Constitution: Constitution Thirteenth Amendment Bill of 2007, by
    the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development.

    Referred to the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional
    Affairs.

                        TUESDAY, 31 JULY 2007

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Draft Bills submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159 (a) Education Laws Amendment Bill, 2007, submitted by the Minister of Education. Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Education and the Select Committee on Education and Recreation. (b) National Environmental Management: Integrated Coastal Management Bill, 2007, submitted by the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism. Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Environmental Affairs and Tourism and the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs.

(c)     National Environmental Management: Waste Bill, 2007, submitted
     by the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism. Referred to
     the Portfolio Committee on Environmental Affairs and Tourism and
     the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs.


(d)     National Environmental Management Laws Amendment Bill, 2007,
     submitted by the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism.
     Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Environmental Affairs and
     Tourism and the Select Committee on Land and Environmental
     Affairs.


   e) National Environmental Management Second Amendment Bill, 2007,
      submitted by the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism.
      Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Environmental Affairs and
      Tourism and the Select Committee on Land and Environmental
      Affairs.

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Finance (a) Annual Report of the Bank Supervision Department on the South African Reserve Bank for the year ended 31 December 2006.

 (b)    Annual Financial Statements of the Corporation for Public
     Deposits for 2006-2007, including the Report of the Independent
     Auditors on the Financial Statements for the year ended 31 March
     2007.
 (c)    Report and Financial Statements of the Financial Services Board
     on the Registrar of Friendly Societies for 2005.

1. The Minister of Transport

 (a)    Report of the Railway Safety Regulator on the State of Railway
     Safety in South Africa for 2005-2006 [RP 7-2007].

      Please note: The tabling above replaces item 3(c) under “Tablings”
      on page 1472 of the Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports
      of 27 July 2007.

 (b)    International Convention on Oil Pollution Preparedness, Response
     and Co-operation, 1990 (OPRC Convention), tabled in terms of
     section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.

 (c)    Explanatory Memorandum to the International Convention on Oil
     Pollution Preparedness, Response and Co-operation, 1990 (OPRC
     Convention).


 (d)    Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa
     and the Government of the Republic of Senegal on Cooperation with
     regard to Civil Aviation Security, tabled in terms of section
     231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.

 (e)    Explanatory Memorandum to the Agreement between the Government
     of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Republic
     of Senegal on Cooperation with regard to Civil Aviation Security.

                      WEDNESDAY, 1 AUGUST 2007

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Classification of Bill by Joint Tagging Mechanism

(1)     The Joint Tagging Mechanism, in terms of Joint Rule 160(6),
     classified the following Bill as a section 75 Bill:


      a) Broadband Infraco Bill [B 26 – 2007] (National Assembly – (sec
         75)).

                       THURSDAY, 2 AUGUST 2007

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism

(1)     The Joint Tagging Mechanism, in terms of Joint Rule 160(6),
     classified the following Bill as a money Bill:


     (a)     Diamond Export Levy Bill [B 22 – 2007] (National Assembly –
         (sec 77)).


(2)     The Joint Tagging Mechanism, in terms of Joint Rule 160(6),
     classified the following Bill as a section 75 Bill:


     (a)     Diamond Export Levy (Administration) Bill [B 23 – 2007]
         (National Assembly – (sec 75)).

1. Assent by President in respect of Bills

 (a)    Immigration Amendment Bill [B 28 – 2007] – Act No 3 of 2007
     (assented to and signed by President on 28 June 2007).

 (b)    Appropriation Bill [B 2 – 2007] – Act No 7 of 2007 (assented to
     and signed by President on 24 July 2007).


 (c)    Taxation Laws Second Amendment Bill [B 19 – 2007] – Act No 9 of
     2007 (assented to and signed by President on 24 July 2007).

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Finance

 (a)    Government Notice No R 621 published in Government Gazette No
     30072 dated 13 July 2007: Amendment of Schedule No 2 (No 2/291) to
     the Customs and Excise Act, 1964, made in terms of section 56 of
     the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).


 (b)    Government Notice No R 622 published in Government Gazette No
     30072 dated 13 July 2007: Amendment of Schedule No 2 (No 2/292) to
     the Customs and Excise Act, 1964, made in terms of section 56 of
     the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).

 (c)    Government Notice No R 624 published in Government Gazette No
     30075 dated 20 July 2007: Correction Notice to Notice No 518 of
     Government Gazette No 29455 dated 15 December 2006, Amendment of
     Schedule No 1 (No 1/1338) to the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act
     No 91 of 1964).

 (d)    Government Notice No R 625 published in Government Gazette No
     30075 dated 20 July 2007: Amendment of Schedule No 1 (No 1/1/1339)
     to the Customs and Excise Act, 1964, made in terms of section 48
     of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).

 (e)    Government Notice No R 626 published in Government Gazette No
     30075 dated 20 July 2007: Amendment of Schedule No 1 (No 1/1/1340)
     to the Customs and Excise Act, 1964, made in terms of section 48
     of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).

 (f)    Government Notice No R 627 published in Government Gazette No
     30075 dated 20 July 2007: Amendment of Schedule No 1 (No 1/1/1341)
     to the Customs and Excise Act, 1964, made in terms of section 48
     of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).

 (g)    Government Notice No R 628 published in Government Gazette No
     30075 dated 20 July 2007: Amendment of Schedule No 3 (No 3/614) to
     the Customs and Excise Act, 1964, made in terms of section 75 of
     the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).

 (h)    Government Notice No R 629 published in Government Gazette No
     30075 dated 20 July 2007:  Amendment of Schedule No 3 (No 3/615)
     to the Customs and Excise Act, 1964, made in terms of section 75
     of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).

 (i)    Government Notice No R 630 published in Government Gazette No
     30075 dated 20 July 2007: Amendment of Schedule No 3 (No 3/616) to
     the Customs and Excise Act, 1964, made in terms of section 75 of
     the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
 (j)    Government Notice No R 631 published in Government Gazette No
     30075 dated 20 July 2007: Amendment of Schedule No 3 (No 3/617) to
     the Customs and Excise Act, 1964, made in terms of section 75 of
     the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).

 (k)    Government Notice No R 632 published in Government Gazette No
     30075 dated 20 July 2007: Correction Notice to Notice No R 105 of
     Government Gazette No 29596 dated 9 February 2007, Amendment of
     Schedule No 5 (No 5/85) to the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act
     No 91 of 1964).

 (l)    Government Notice No R 576 published in Government Gazette No
     30051 dated 13 July 2007: Cancellation of an Authorised Dealer in
     Foreign Exchange in terms of the Exchange Control Regulations,
     1961.

 (m)    Government Notice No R 577 published in Government Gazette No
     30051 dated 13 July 2007: Appointment of an Authorised Dealer in
     Foreign Exchange in terms of the Exchange Control Regulations,
     1961.

 (n)    Government Notice No 647 published in Government Gazette No
     30074 dated 20 July 2007: Listing and delisting of public
     entities, made in terms of sections 47 and 48 of the Public
     Finance Management Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999).

                       TUESDAY, 7 AUGUST 2007

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Council of Provinces

The Chairperson

1. The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Finance:

(a)     Agreement between the Government of Sweden and the Government
    of the Republic of South Africa on Development Co-operation 1 July
    2004 – 30 June 2007, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the
    Constitution, 1996.

(b)     Explanatory Memorandum on the Agreement between the Government
    of Sweden and the Government of the Republic of South Africa on
    Development Co-operation 1 July 2004 – 30 June 2007.

(c)     Government Notice No R.478 published in Government Gazette No
    29958 dated 1 June 2007: Rules made by the Minister of Finance
    under section 771 of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of
    1964).

(d)     Government Notice No R.484 published in Government Gazette No
    29951 dated 8 June 2007: Amendment of Schedule No 1 (No 1/1/1337)in
    terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).


(e)     Government Notice No R.485 published in Government Gazette No
    29951 dated 8 June 2007: Amendment of Schedule No 3 (No 3/612) in
    terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(f)     Government Notice No R.486 published in Government Gazette No
    29951 dated 8 June 2007: Amendment of Schedule No 4 (No 4/306) in
    terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).

(g)     Explanatory Memorandum for the Diamond Export Levy Bill, 2007.

(h)     Government Notice No R.492 published in Government Gazette No
    29966 dated 15 June 2007: Municipal Regulations on Debt Disclosure,
    in terms of section 168 of the Local Government: Municipal Finance
    Management Act, 2003 (Act No 56 of 2003).

(i)     Government Notice No R.493 published in Government Gazette No
    29967 dated 15 June 2007: Municipal Regulations on Minimum
    Competency Levels, in terms of section 168 of the Local Government:
    Municipal Finance Management Act, 2003 (Act No 56 of 2003).

(j)     Report and Financial Statements of the Financial Services Board
    on the Road Accident Fund for 2005-2006.

(k)     Government Notice No 503 published in Government Gazette No
    29984 dated 14 June 2007: Amendment of Schedule No 2 (2/290) in
    terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).

1. The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs:

(a)     Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South
    Africa and the Government of the Republic of Malta in respect of
    Police Cooperation, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the
    Constitution, 1996.

1. The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs:

(a)     Report and Financial Statements of the Urban Transport Fund
    (UTF) for 2005-2006, including the Report of the Auditor-General on
    the Financial Statements for 2005-2006 [RP 45-2007].


(b)     Report of the Railway Safety Regulator on the State of Railway
    Safety in South Africa for 2005-2006 [RP 7-2007].


(c)     International Convention for the Control and Management of
    Ship’s Ballast Water and Sediments – 2004 (Ballast Water Management
    Convention), tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution,
    1996.

(d)     Explanatory Memorandum to the International Convention for the
    Control and Management of Ship’s Ballast Water and Sediments – 2004
    (Ballast Water Management Convention).

                      WEDNESDAY, 8 AUGUST 2007

ANNOUNCEMENTS National Council of Provinces

The Chairperson

Please note: The announcement below replaces item 3 under “Referral to
Committees of papers tabled” on page 1537 of the Announcements, Tablings
and Committee Reports of 7 August 2007.

1. The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Public Services for consideration and report:

(a)     Report and Financial Statements of the Urban Transport Fund
    (UTF) for 2005-2006, including the Report of the Auditor-General on
    the Financial Statements for 2005-2006 [RP 45-2007].


(b)     Report of the Railway Safety Regulator on the State of Railway
    Safety in South Africa for 2005-2006 [RP 7-2007].


(c)     International Convention for the Control and Management of
    Ship’s Ballast Water and Sediments – 2004 (Ballast Water Management
    Convention), tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution,
    1996.

(d)     Explanatory Memorandum to the International Convention for the
    Control and Management of Ship’s Ballast Water and Sediments – 2004
    (Ballast Water Management Convention).

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister for Public Enterprises (a) Report and Financial Statements of Transnet Ltd and the Group for 2006-2007, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2006-2007.

                    TUESDAY, 14 AUGUST 2007
   

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Introduction of Bill

Please note: The following item amends the entry “Introduction of Bill”
(English text), published on page 1465 of the Announcements, Tablings
and Committee Reports of 6 July 2007:


 (1)    The Minister for Public Enterprises


       a) Broadband Infraco Bill [B 26 – 2007] (National Assembly –
          proposed sec 75) [Bill published in Government Gazette No
          29879 of 11 May 2007.]


     Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on Public
     Enterprises of the National Assembly, as well as referral to the
     Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint
     Rule 160, on 6 July 2007.


     In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of
     the Bill may be submitted to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)
     within three parliamentary working days.

1. Assent by President in respect of Bills

 (a)    Taxation Laws Amendment Bill [B 18 – 2007] – Act No 8 of 2007
     (assented to and signed by President on 5 August 2007).


Please note: The following item amends item (a) under the entry “Assent
by President in respect of Bill”, published on page 1530 of the
Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports of 2 August 2007:


 (b)    Immigration Amendment Bill [B 28 – 2006] – Act No 3 of 2007
     (assented to and signed by President on 28 June 2007).

1. Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism

(1)     The Joint Tagging Mechanism, in terms of Joint Rule 160(6),
     classified the following Bill as a Constitution amendment Bill:


     (a)     Constitution Thirteenth Amendment Bill [B 24 – 2007]
         (National Assembly – (sec 74)).


(2)     The Joint Tagging Mechanism, in terms of Joint Rule 160(6),
     classified the following Bill as a section 75 Bill:


     (a)     Cross-Boundary Municipalities Laws Repeal and Related
         Matters Amendment Bill [B 25 – 2007] (National Assembly – (sec
         75)).
(3)     The Joint Tagging Mechanism, in terms of Joint Rule 160(6),
     classified the following Bill as a section 75 Bill:


     (a)     Transport Agencies General Laws Amendment Bill [B 27 –
         2007] (National Assembly – (sec 75)).


(4)     The Joint Tagging Mechanism, in terms of Joint Rule 160(6),
     classified the following Bill as a section 76 Bill:


     (a)     Social Housing Bill [B 29 – 2007] (National Assembly – (sec
         76)).


(5)     The Joint Tagging Mechanism, in terms of Joint Rule 160(6),
     classified the following Bill as a section 76 Bill:


     (a)     Rental Housing Amendment Bill [B 30 – 2007] (National
         Assembly – (sec 76)).


(6)     The Joint Tagging Mechanism, in terms of Joint Rule 160(6),
     classified the following Bill as a section 75 Bill:
     (a)     Correctional Services Amendment Bill [B 32 – 2007]
         (National Assembly – (sec 75)).

1. Membership of Committees

(1) The following changes have been made to the membership of Joint Committees:

Budget
Appointed:   Swart, Mr M; Van Dyk, Dr S M

Joint Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of Life and Status
of Children, Youth and Disabled Persons:
Appointed:   Marais, Mr K; Swathe, Mr M

                      WEDNESDAY, 15 AUGUST 2007

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Draft Bill submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159

(a) Safety at Sports and Recreational Events Bill, 2007, submitted by the Minister of Sport and Recreation. Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Sport and Recreation and the Select Committee on Education and Recreation.

National Council of Provinces

The Chairperson

1. Membership of Committees

 (1)    The following changes have been made to the membership of Joint
Committees:

     Joint Standing Committee on Defence
     Appointed:    Le Roux, Mr J W


     Joint Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of Life and
     Status of Children, Youth and Disabled Persons
     Appointed:    Thetjeng, Mr O M


     Joint Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of Life and
     Status of Women
     Appointed:    Lamoela, Ms H
                       FRIDAY, 17 AUGUST 2007

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Assent by President in respect of Bill

 (a)    South African Red Cross Society and Legal Protection of Certain
     Emblems Bill [B 25 – 2006] – Act No 10 of 2007 (assented to and
     signed by President on 9 August 2007).

1. Classification of Bill by Joint Tagging Mechanism

(1)     The Joint Tagging Mechanism, in terms of Joint Rule 160(6),
     classified the following Bill as a section 76 Bill:


     (a)     National Gambling Amendment Bill [B 31 – 2007] (National
         Assembly – (sec 76)).

TABLINGS National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism (a) Government Notice No 505 published in the Government Gazette No 29996 dated 19 June 2007: Establishment of the new Mokala National Park, made in terms of section 20(1)(a)(i) of the National Environmental Management: Protected Areas Act, 2003 (Act No 57 of 2003).

(b)     Government Notice No 514 published in the Government Gazette No
     29999 dated 21 June 2007: Constitution of the National
     Environmental Advisory Forum, made in terms of Chapter 2, section
     6(1)(a)(i) of the National Environmental Management Act, 1998 (Act
     107 of 1998).

(c)     Government Notice No 830 published in the Government Gazette No
     30057 dated 206 July 2007: Notice of intention to establish the
     National Framework , made in terms of section 7 of the National
     Environmental Management: Air Quality Act, 2004 (Act No 39 of
     2004).

                       MONDAY, 20 AUGUST 2007

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Draft Bill submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159

(a) Repeal of the Black Administration Act and Amendment of Certain Laws Amendment Bill, 2007, submitted by the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development. Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development and the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs.

1. Introduction of Bills

 (1)    The Minister of Education


     (a)     Education Laws Amendment Bill [B 33 – 2007] (National
          Assembly – proposed sec 76) [Bill published in Government
          Gazette No 30107 of 20 July 2007.]


          Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on
          Education of the National Assembly, as well as referral to
          the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms
          of Joint Rule 160.


          In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the
          classification of the Bill may be submitted to the Joint
          Tagging Mechanism (JTM) within three parliamentary working
          days.


 (2)    The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development


     (a)     Repeal of the Black Administration Act and Amendment of
          Certain Laws Amendment Bill Education Laws Amendment Bill [B
          34 – 2007] (National Assembly – proposed sec 75) [Bill
          published in Government Gazette No 30172 of 13 August 2007.]
          Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on
          Justice and Constitutional Development of the National
          Assembly, as well as referral to the Joint Tagging Mechanism
          (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint Rule 160.


          In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the
          classification of the Bill may be submitted to the Joint
          Tagging Mechanism (JTM) within three parliamentary working
          days.

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism

Please note: The following item amends item (c) under the entry
“Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism” published on page 1581
of the Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports of 17 August 2007:

(a)     Government Notice No 830 published in the Government Gazette No
     30057 dated 6 July 2007: Notice of intention to establish the
     National Framework, made in terms of section 7 of the National
     Environmental Management: Air Quality Act, 2004 (Act No 39 of
     2004).