THURSDAY, 6 SEPTEMBER 2007 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
                                ____

The Council met at 14:02.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

                        REED DANCE AT NONGOMA

                         (Draft Resolution)

Ms A N T MCHUNU: I hereby move:

That the Council –

  1) congratulates young maidens of South Africa who are celebrating the
     Reed Dance at Enyokeni Royal Palace, Nongoma, over the week-end of
     6 to 8 September 2007;
  2) notes that this cultural institution assists young maidens to
     remain celibate for proper development to maturity and to prevent
     the spread of deadly diseases;


  3) expresses its appreciation for their voluntary stand to work with
     their mothers and continue with virginity testing, despite world
     pressure on them to get deflowered and then provide a market for
     condoms and chemical contraceptives at a young, tender and immature
     age; and


  4) notes that loading a child’s body’s with drugs exposes the body
     system to infections and resistance to drugs.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is that an objection to that motion? Your motion has an objection to it and in the light of that objection the motion may not be proceeded with. The motion without notice will now become a notice of a motion.

                        MOTION OF CONDOLENCE

                    (The late Inkosi S H Gumede)

Nkk J N VILAKAZI: Sihlalo, ngiphakamisa lesi siphakamiso ngaphandle kokufaka isaziso:

Ukuthi lo Mkhandlu – (1) udlulisa ukudabuka okukhulu ngokuhamba emhlabeni komhlonishwa iNkosi S H Gumede ngokukhulu ukuzuma engozini yemoto ethathe umphefumulo wayo, nebikade iyilungu lesishayamthetho KwaZulu- Natali;

(2) uzwelana kakhulu nomndeni wenkosi, iqembu layo i-IFP nesizwe sonke ebikade isiphethe saKwaMakhasi, KwaZulu-Natali; futhi

 3) ugcina ngokuthi nilale ngenxeba nina nonke enithintekile ngalesi
    sehlakalo.

(Translation of isiZulu motion of condolence follows.)

[Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council –

    1) expresses its utmost sadness at the sudden passing away of
       Inkosi S H Gumede, a member of the KwaZulu-Natal Legislature,
       who was involved in a car accident that resulted in his demise;


    2) sympathises deeply with the Inkosi`s family, his party, the IFP,
       and the whole of the KwaMakhasi clan in KwaZulu-Natal which was
       under his jurisdiction; and
    3) asks everyone who is affected by this to find comfort and accept
       it as fate.]

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

READINESS OF PROVINCES TO DEAL WITH DISASTERS CAUSED BY FIRES AND THE
                           IMPACT THEREOF

                      (Subject for Discussion)

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We now proceed to the subject for discussion today on the readiness of provinces to deal with disasters caused by fires and the impact thereof. We have invited the Minister for Provincial and Local Government. We welcome you, Minister, and your deputy. Thank you very much for coming.

All of you are aware that this is a very current and important issue. We have a few MECs with us. Thanks for coming, MEC Mashego-Dlamini from Mpumalanga; MEC from the Western Cape, Mr Dyantyi. I thought all MECs would be here today, because of the importance of the subject. Thank you to the special delegates also for making it to this important discussion.

Minister, just before you take your place, we have decided in the Council that once a quarter, we will pick a topic for discussion, not just on provincial and local government issues, but on many other issues also. We have already had education. We missed the last quarter, but are now doing the provincial and local government issues. There is another subject coming and we can discuss to what extent government is prepared. With agreement between you and me, we thought it would be much better to focus on the one today so that we have that valuable input for the subject today.

The MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, hon MECs, Deputy Minister Nomatyala Hangana, and hon members, on behalf of the Ministry and the Department of Provincial and Local Government, I would like to take this opportunity to express our debt to you for seeing fit to organise this debate.

This debate offers us the welcome opportunity to reflect on the readiness of provinces to deal with disasters caused by fires and the impact thereof. Not only does this debate deal with a matter that bears on the untold human suffering caused either by the elements or by human activities which are not benign to the environment, but also, it is about a problem which reaches deep into the economy of our country.

The fires at the end of July and beginning of August in Mpumalanga, KwaZulu- Natal, Free State, Eastern Cape, Limpopo and Gauteng had a devastating impact on the lives and livelihoods of our people. Amongst the many casualties that we as a nation have suffered in the wake of those fires are the 20 men and women whose passing we deeply regret. We hereby offer our sincere and heartfelt sympathy and condolences to their loved ones. We further offer our sympathies to those of our people who have lost property, plantation, crops, grazing land, livestock and game as well as those whose lives and livelihoods have been negatively impacted by these fires.

As we speak, the relevant national sector departments, provincial departments, municipalities and private entities are working very hard to make a precise determination of the extent of the damage caused by this disaster. Early indications of the damage and losses include the following: As much as 100 000 hectares of forestry and commercial plantations, and a further 22 700 hectares in Swaziland, as well as over 200 000 hectares of grazing land have been lost; loss of an as-yet-unknown number of stock and commercial game species, and other species; environmental damage, including soil erosion and the fires facilitating the spread of invasive alien plants; four sawmills and as-yet-undetermined numbers of houses and buildings were damaged or destroyed; the potential loss of an as-yet- unquantified number of existing and future jobs; loss of foreign exchange and revenue, and the psychological displacement and loss of productive time impacts during and after the fires.

It bears emphasising that had it not been for the decisive and dedicated toil of the Disaster Management Centres, the cadres of the Working on Fire programme, the SANDF, local councils, fire protection associations and other structures, the losses and the damage could have been more staggering. In Mpumalanga alone, the Working on Fire programme provided 32 fire-fighting aircraft, including four air force helicopters, to fight 40 fires, flying over 700 hours. Three hundred-and-seventy fire-fighters from Working on Fire, and mopping-up support from 105 Working for Water workers fought the fires. In addition, capacities from local government, the commercial forestry industry and the agricultural sector were mobilised and deployed.

In a letter written to my colleague, the Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry, and copied to me, the executive director of Forestry South Africa, Mr Edwards, takes the view that had it not been for the Working on Fire programme, the damage could have reached catastrophic proportions. Mr Edwards actually makes a counterfactual deduction to the effect that the Working on Fire programme may have saved the country well over R1 billion.

We are currently undertaking a detailed damage assessment. Co-ordinated by the National Disaster Management Centre, this process involves all the affected provinces, municipalities and national sector departments. The aim is to determine the steps that need to be taken to normalise the situation. We also intend to identify priority interventions required across the three spheres of government and the private sector. Lastly, we intend to quantify the extent of damage incurred by all stakeholders with a view to identifying those amongst them that may require and/or deserve provincial or national government assistance.

Once the damage assessment has been completed, then a post-disaster review will be undertaken. The intention is to identify best practices which must be taken on board as we establish new benchmarks for organising our disaster prevention and mitigation readiness into the future.

As we all know, the first step towards fighting disasters is to make the issue itself a national priority. In this regard, we are proud to say that the necessary legal and regulatory structures are already in place. We require steadiness of purpose on the part of all stakeholders. All of us must work together to turn regulations into effective practices. In their development planning, all spheres of government must treat disaster prevention and mitigation as a subject for serious, sustained action. The private sector and the academic community must consciously be part of the national effort toward maintaining the natural resource base upon which we depend for our continued economic development.

The generality of the South African population must take responsibility for preserving the ability of the biotic community to meet the needs of both present and future generations. All these things will happen if, and only if, we redouble our efforts to mobilise for enforcement of our legal, regulatory and institutional mechanisms. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr S SHICEKA: Chairperson, Minister, Deputy Minister, MEC present from the Western Cape, Qubudile, and MEC from Mpumalanga, Mama uCandith, special delegates present, colleagues, ladies and gentlemen, comrades and friends, today I feel very privileged to stand before you to share views about a most important topic that is, however, underrated, which is disaster management, and specifically dealing with fires.

Capitalism is a system that encourages individual accumulation of wealth, and this wealth is at times reflected through property ownership, individually and collectively, in the form of a state. Disasters arise from both natural and human causes. They are inevitable and we do not know when and where they will happen. Disasters are always unpredictable; hence, their worst effects can be partially or completely prevented by preparation, early-warning systems and decisive response.

South Africa as a country has developed one of the best models for disaster management and the prevention thereof. Our model of disaster management involves preparation, support, and the rebuilding of society when natural or man-made disasters occur. In general, any emergency management is the continuous process by which all individuals, groups and communities manage hazards in an effort to avoid the impact of disasters resulting from the hazards.

The launch of the White Paper on Disaster Management, and the passing of the Act thereon is but one of the most important pieces of legislation that correctly outlines government’s new thinking in relation to disaster management. The recent disasters related to shack fires, particularly in the Western Cape, and veld fires, emphasise the importance of this legislation.

In line with international trends, priority is given to the prevention of disasters. Unlike previous efforts, our model places emphasis on the importance of preventing or mitigating human, economic and property losses, and avoiding environmental degradation. Although preparedness and measures for more efficient rescue operations will remain a necessity, much greater attention is directed to the introduction of preventative strategies.

Previously, the plight of the most vulnerable sections of our population was ignored and the very cause of their vulnerability - that of poverty – was obscured. In line with government’s priorities, our new approach to disaster management pays specific attention to the pressing needs of poor communities in relation to both natural and human disasters. The new approach is in keeping with the government’s commitment to alleviate the plight of the poor communities through its national efforts in poverty reduction, land reform, housing, employment creation and service expansion and delivery.

Disaster management is furthermore not the exclusive preserve of government. The private sector and civil society need to play a crucial role in ensuring that there are sustainable and effective methods of ensuring that disasters are managed, and that we are able to take these programmes in partnership and in co-operation with all those that are on board.

We need to strengthen the capacities within and across municipalities to record and track disaster-related impacts to better inform both disaster management and development planning. Moreover, in an effort to minimise fire-related incidents and disasters, free training in fire safety needs to be provided to the community, meaning that we need to mobilise our people. Government has developed policies that are in place; now we need to ensure that structures are established.

However, it is not only the structures that need to be established. We also need to ensure that during the development of the independent development plans, and all other planning-related systems and programmes, disaster management is part of that, and at the core of that. The mobilisation and capacitating of our communities is supposed to be at the core of this so that our people are able to ensure that they develop strategies that can have early-warning systems, but not only that; they must be able to ensure that they deal with this matter on their own.

As all of us know, rural municipalities do not have the capacity to deal with disasters at this level. Therefore, we need to make an extra effort to involve our people in dealing with these issues, so that our people, on their own, are able to take up the cudgels of this process, and deal with it in a way that ensures that the indigenous knowledge systems are taken on board in doing so.

We believe that the role of community development workers is supposed to be at the centre of this mobilisation process so that they play a role in educating our communities about veld fires and also about the impact of smoking and dropping the cigarette stubs in dry areas. People must be trained in basic first aid and in dealing with fires. They must also be trained on the dangers of building houses in unsafe areas, and the dangers of paraffin as a form of energy that is utilised by our people in our communities.

One of the most important programmes that has been developed by the paraffin industry is the “Ufudo” campaign. This campaign is aimed at conscientising and building the consciousness and education of the people who live in informal settlements. This campaign is aimed at mobilising our people so that they are able to deal with these things, particularly when they deal with primus stoves, paraffin lamps and also the candles that sometimes are dangerous when they are utilised in these areas.

People from informal settlements, we believe, must also be educated about leaving enough empty space in-between so that fire engines are able to move in these areas, so that when one shack is burning, it does not affect the shacks around it. We believe that these matters are matters that must be taken up, and are matters that must be liaised upon in a way that takes us forward in this respect.

I want to conclude in the time I have left by saying that all of us must be soldiers who are beginning to ensure that they build this consciousness in our society about the importance of disaster management in general, and of fire management in particular, as these issues affect the whole of the country and they affect the livelihood of our people, and therefore, they need to be combated by all of us. We must be at the forefront, as legislators, in this process of educating our people, particularly in rural areas. Thank you.

Mr A WATSON: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, hon MECs and hon fellow members of the NCOP, research shows that most regions in South Africa are naturally fire-prone, and the inherent fire hazards are exacerbated by a number of factors, not least of which is the escalating occurrence of alien plant invasions coupled with the ever-present fire risks associated with forestry and agriculture. This is particularly prevalent in a province like my own, Mpumalanga, with vast areas of forestry in the escarpment areas and alongside it thousands of hectares of grassed areas and grazing fields.

Fires will always be part of our lives and the natural ecological role of fire must be recognised and never underestimated, but the devastating fires of the recent past, particularly in Mpumalanga, the Eastern Cape, Limpopo and other provinces have had a very negative effect on all spheres of life in those provinces.

On 7 August, barely a month ago, Sappi announced that they alone were negatively affected on no less than 4 300 hectares of forested land in the Sabie and Graskop areas, and considering the slow production of timber, this will not only set back the industry for many years, but will also cause a severe shortage of timber in the foreseeable future. The consequent job losses and effect on dependent families can only be imagined.

Councillor Ernst van den Berg, who serves both on the Emakhazeni Local Municipality and the Ekangala District Municipality reports that the veld fire of 15 August that swept through the farms between Wonderfontein and Carolina in Mpumalanga not only destroyed many hectares of grazing, but also resulted in the emergency culling of no fewer than 600 sheep and 40 head of cattle – all prime breeding stock, which included some top-class dairy cows. In the same area, just weeks before, two tourists were burned to death when a trout farm and holiday resort was unexpectedly engulfed in a raging fire in which many animals were also killed, and in which buildings, vehicles and implements were destroyed.

The obvious and highly evident effects of fires out of control are easy to reflect upon, and even easier to raise to the level of newsworthiness, but the negative impact on farm dwellers, particularly the families of farmworkers and the rural poor, cannot be overstated. Just think of the loss of housing and possessions when thatched or wooden dwellings ignite and, worst still, the loss of life and disability.

Of equal importance is the knock-on effect on rural economies. A survey of flower and thatch harvesting of natural plant resources in the fynbos in 1993 showed that the value of these products amounted to more than R65 million per year, and sustained 20 000 to 30 000 rural people in subsistence livelihoods. While no accurate current value is available, this survey reported that it is reliably estimated that the value of this industry, to the rural poor, is now at least R120 million a year.

Time does not permit me to reflect on other effects like air pollution and the inhalation of smoke particles, but all these occurrences re-emphasise the vital need for an integrated approach to fire management in all the affected regions. Research in my own province has revealed that whilst a disaster management unit does indeed exist, and while excellent work is being done by the Working on Fire programme, such as during the recent terrible fires, evidence of input from the side of government – both local and provincial – has been minimal and mostly of a short-term nature during crises.

Often, when communities and individuals have been negatively affected by fires, they are soon assisted with blankets, tents and food parcels to render temporary and emergency relief. However, no provisions seem to be in place for long-term assistance and support to such victims.

The impact of such disasters and the consequential needs of the affected communities and individual victims are also not always properly assessed. There is evidence of hundreds of blankets being distributed to people who have sufficient shelter, blankets and clothing, but who are in dire need of feed and fodder for their animals.

During March this year, my colleagues in the legislature submitted questions in regard to fire services in Mpumalanga municipalities, and in the reply by the MEC for Local Government and Housing, they were informed that, presently, only 17 fire brigades serve the entire province. This is obviously a hopelessly inadequate situation, because some of these communities are 50km or more away from the nearest fire brigade.

Many other things can be said about disasters, but I want to say – in closing – that the recent devastations referred to and similar occurrences of previous years are proof enough, if proof is needed, that a comprehensive plan must not only be compiled, but must be urgently implemented.

Therefore, on behalf of the DA in this House, I propose that this subject becomes a priority oversight item on the programmes of the next provincial visits by delegations, and that the NCOP embarks on a national investigation and, ultimately, produces a report which clearly outlines vital steps to be taken to implement effective and operational disaster management units in all provinces. Thank you. [Applause.]

Ms K C MASHEGO-DLAMINI (Mpumalanga): Chairperson, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers who are present here, hon members of the NCOP and delegates from various provinces, it is a great honour and prestige to be accorded this opportunity to address this august House on such an important matter. We are coming out of the fire disaster-prone season at the end of August, which has left a number of areas in the country in ashes.

Our province was, however, not an exception to such occurrences, as it had its share of the disaster from 27 July to 16 August 2007. The severity of the fire disaster has left at least 13 people dead, 26 injured, 222 houses destroyed, 157 structures damaged, about 50 000 hectares of plantation and 2 500 hectares of grazing land destroyed and almost 1 000 animals and livestock killed. Further sporadic incidences of blazing fires were reported in the veld and forest farms beyond 16 August. Around five o’clock yesterday morning, 15 shacks and two cars were destroyed at Sabie.

It is, however, worth mentioning that Cabinet took an interest in the matter and has sent the Minister for Provincial and Local Government and the Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry. The visits by the Ministers were followed up by the Premier of the province and some members of the Provincial Executive Council to distribute disaster relief to the affected communities on 3 August 2007. The visits were conducted in collaboration with the Gift of the Givers Foundation that was generously donating food parcels, tents, blankets, clothes and other goods. The last visit was made by the members of the NCOP from our province, which we greatly appreciate. [Applause.]

Whilst the visits were taking place, the departments of local government and housing and other sector departments provided an immediate response following the inferno. The construction of temporary housing structures and provision of humanitarian aid were among the immediate dispersed measures. Other departments assisted in providing the assessment of damages in their field of expertise.

In dealing with the situation, the province was guided by the following three important pieces of legislation: the National Veld and Forest Fire Act of 1998, the Fire Brigade Services Act of 1987, and the Disaster Management Act of 2002.

According to Forestry SA, the fires and associated damages caused to commercial forests is a five-fold increase on the last 25 years’ average and this will take decades to recover from. Estimates indicate a loss of about R3,5 million and that damages of commercial areas affected totalled 9,92% of the provincial forested area covering a range of related sectors.

Through the 2006 statistics, we are made aware that out of the approximately 1 281 521 hectares occupied by forestry in the country, almost 521 385 hectares are in Mpumalanga, which is 40,7%. In terms of the areas that have been burnt in the whole country – 63 964 hectares – Mpumalanga has experienced a burnt forestry of 47 760 hectares, which is 74,7% of the disaster in forestry.

Having said that, Forestry SA has further requested assistance in view of this disaster to be exempted from paying property rates in forestry where such fire disaster occurred - exemption will be for a specific consideration period as may be acceptable to the Minister and the relevant local municipalities. The second request was for exemption from surcharges on water supplied beyond the normal water allocation quotas. This exemption will only be applicable for a specific period of recovery for plantations and to put wood logs under irrigation for a certain period.

As for the Department of Agriculture, more than 45 farms were seriously affected in the province, because their livestock and agricultural equipment and commercial buildings were largely lost to the blazes. More than 25 hectares of grazing land has been lost. The provincial cabinet of Mpumalanga has allocated R16 million – you must listen to this, Mr Watson – to supply all the livestock farmers with fodder to enable them to feed the little bit of livestock that remained.

The Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs administration has estimated a total loss of R253 million. This costs estimate can be expected to change if new sporadic fires emerge and an updated report is submitted. It goes without saying that the province has suffered an immense economic catastrophe through these fire disasters. Most of our active labour force will be left unemployed due to economic cutbacks in the agriculture and forestry industries.

Following the fire disaster, the Department of Local Government has come up with plans to further improve disaster management in the province. The department is finalising the process of a compliant Provincial Disaster Management Framework. The department is negotiating capacitated local municipalities in the three districts to sign a service level agreement for the 24-hour service of the Provincial Disaster Management Centre as a temporary measure for their current facilities until the completion of the Provincial Disaster Management Centre. Further negotiations will unfold with the Working on Fire agency to second and deploy some of its firefighters to distressed municipalities.

A declaration of commitment and partnership was signed between the department and the Gift of the Givers Foundation as an NGO so that we can join hands when such occurrences happen in our province again. The province has compiled a consolidated assessment report for approval by the Provincial Executive Council – which has been done yesterday – and this report will be submitted to the National Disaster Management Centre.

The centre will clarify the disaster in terms of section 23 of the Disaster Management Act, which will provide a direction whether a provincial or local disaster should be declared in the province. The declaration of the disaster, whether at local or provincial level, will necessitate extraordinary steps and measures towards recovery and rehabilitation.

We are, however, quite confident that with the current process for the construction of the fully equipped, state-of-the-art Provincial Disaster Management Centre the following can be achieved with ease in a very short space of time: Farmers will be monitored for compliance with the Act by ensuring that fire-breaks are consistently done; we are considering reviving fire protection associations for all veld, farm and forest areas; we are considering all our municipalities being fully equipped and having adequate and relevant human resources for firefighting; there will be a submission of the report from the category of authorised persons, detailing the gaps in the fire stations of municipalities; we will also pursue the report on the findings of the current investigation into the causes of fire that was instituted by our department from the second week of August 2007.

A report with findings and recommendations is due to be submitted to the department by mid-September; it is also about time that we ensure that there are credible disaster plans and contingencies in the province, including all municipalities. The IDP engagement process will also assist to jack up our quality in this field. Cabinet yesterday seconded the decision that all assessments of the fire damage from all stakeholders need to be submitted to the provincial office by 2 September 2007.

We are confident that should all these be realised, the persistent blazing fires engulfing the province over the past few years will soon be history. We will continue to work with Working on Fire, the SANDF and other stakeholders in providing speedy responses where necessary.

I thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Nk A N T MCHUNU: Mphathisihlalo ohloniphekile, mangibonge kakhulu umhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe okunguyena oqondene nalesi sigameko esinzima kangaka kanye nabahlonishwa abathintekile nabaye bagijima ekuveleni kwalento, ibuhlungu kabi. Uma umuntu eseyizwa iqhamuka kubona bekhuluma ngabantu abashonile nempahla elimele, kubuhlungu kakhulu. Sibonga nomsebenzi abewenzile. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Ms A N T MCHUNU: Hon Chairperson, allow me to express my heartfelt gratitude to the Minister who has had to deal with this sad state of events, as well as all other hon members who responded when this incident occurred; it is very sad indeed. If one listens to them talking about the deceased and property which has been destroyed, one feels very sad. We do appreciate all their efforts.]

Fire disasters have a huge impact on human beings, the environment and agriculture and as such they require a high level of government intervention. Though many of these fire disasters are unpredictable their worst effects can be partially or completely prevented by preparation, early warning and swift decisive responses.

The recent tragic fires last July that were defined by the KwaZulu-Natal MEC for Agriculture and Environmental Affairs as a catastrophe highlighted a lack of preparedness by provinces to manage fire disasters. During the fires, many victims battled to access emergency medical treatment. As a result the fires claimed as many as 17 lives. Nearly 1 000 people also lost their homes and everything they owned.

The response from private firefighting and the Provincial Disaster Management Centre was very crucial, although it highlighted the government’s lack of firefighting capacity and emergency services in rural areas.

The IFP notes with dismay that whenever there is a disaster the response is always weak from local government. It is very clear that the response to fires in rural areas needed national, provincial and local government attention.

In response to the KZN fires, one of the rural metro emergency service directors has this to say: “The cities have five-star fire services, but in rural areas - more than 80% of South Africa - there is practically nothing, so they are always hit the hardest. Alternative options are needed to ensure that firefighters get out there and help people in time.”

Droughts and veld fires fall under the LandCare Programme as well. The Drought Grant was stopped in the 2005-06 financial year. This grant should be re-introduced to cover rural and farming communities, since it is drought which often leads to uncontrollable fires. Forests, just like homesteads, need to be clearly demarcated so that veld fires do not spread to these areas. Furthermore, measures to reduce the consequences of wild fires such as preparedness and contingency plans, wild fire recovery plans, community education programmes for self-protection of lives and property and building restrictions and standards for areas prone to veld fires, must be in place.

I thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Mnr C A T SMITH (Noord-Kaap): Agb Voorsitter, agb Minister en Adjunkminister, agb LUR’e teenwoordig, lede van die Nasionale Raad van Provinsies in hierdie hoogwaardige Huis, kollegas en vriende, laat my toe om eerstens ons verskoning namens die LUR vir die Noord-Kaap, die agb Van Wyk, aan die Huis te bring in sy afwesigheid hier vanweë dringende sake van die provinsie. Dit het dit vir hom onmoontlik gemaak om hier te wees, en hy het my gevra om deel te neem aan hierdie debat. Ek doen dit met groot nederigheid en met die nodige agting en respek wat dit verdien. Geagte Voorsitter, … (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mr C A T SMITH (Northern Cape): Hon Chairperson, hon Minister and Deputy Minister, hon MECs present, members of the National Council of Provinces in this august House, colleagues and friends, allow me firstly to tender an apology to this House on behalf of the MEC for the Northern Cape, the hon Van Wyk, who is absent as a result of urgent provincial matters. These have made it impossible for him to be here and he has asked me to participate in this debate. This I do with absolute humility and with the necessary regard and respect that it requires. Hon Chairperson …]

… it is crucial that, in the country’s disaster management, a specific grant is made available for disaster management. This will enable municipalities to have dedicated capacity, both in terms of staff and equipment, for disaster management. It will also assist provinces and municipalities to comply with the Disaster Management Act.

The matter of paying stipends to volunteers needs serious attention, especially in remote towns of municipalities.

Due to the fact that the firefighting services, especially fully equipped trucks, are very expensive and out of financial reach for small Category B municipalities, interactions should take place. We’ll have the SANDF and ACSA to look into availing those firefighting trucks to these municipalities for use.

Dit is ook noodsaaklik dat daar groter samewerking onder ander belangegroepe sal plaasvind, spesifiek in rampsituasies. Dis van kardinale belang.

Gedurende `n ramp in die Noord-Kaap in Kgalagadi, het 40 000 hektaar veld afgebrand. Gedurende daardie tyd het dit vir ons drie dae gevat om te kom onderhandel met die Suid Afrikaanse Nasionale Weermag om die helikopter in die lug te kry om daardie veldbrand te probeer help.

De Beers, op sy beurt, het vinniger `n helikopter beskikbaar gestel. Daarom is dit noodsaaklik dat ons hierdie samewerking bewerkstellig. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[It is also necessary that there should be greater co-operation between other stakeholders, especially in disaster situations. This is of utmost importance.

In a disaster at Kgalagadi in the Northern Cape, 40 000 hectares of veld were destroyed in a fire. During that time, it took us three days to negotiate with the SA National Defence Force to get the helicopter airborne to assist in the efforts to extinguish that blaze.

De Beers, in its turn, was much quicker at making a helicopter available. That is why it is necessary for us to bring about this co-operation.]

Hon Chairperson, the types of disasters which occurred in the Northern Cape are those of motor vehicle accidents, train accidents, domestic fires, veld fires - as I have indicated, particularly one of 15 000 hectares and 19 000 hectares - hazmat cases, including anthrax and bomb scares, cholera cases in the Vaal River were also reported. The Provincial Disaster Management Centre is not fully operational. This is due to the fact that a decision at national level to purchase equipment for all provinces from Switzerland has not been accepted. The province is now in the process of facilitating the purchase of equipment in order for the centre to be fully operational.

In two years we have not been able to retain the two provincial disaster managers, but we are in the process of recruiting a new manager. The PDMC has been operational, although in the last financial year the approach to membership has changed.

The new approach has not been a workable one, so the department will revert to the approach which will include all sector departments in the province, in order to have a hands-on approach to disaster management.

The province has made available a grant to purchase firefighting equipment called Advanced Firefighting Technology, which is a skid pack operated by volunteers trained in the five districts. This was to enable quick response to domestic fires in municipalities.

The province makes an annual grant available to districts to facilitate the observations of NEA. Currently more than 1 300 users are connected on the NEA system. This assists especially in monitoring disasters and any other emergencies in remote, rural and farming areas.

The Pixley ka Seme district has a fully functional District Disaster Management Centre with a disaster management plan and a disaster management framework in place. It is connected to NEA and trained volunteers are available with the AFT firefighting skids.

The challenges here are that the district municipality and the Category B municipalities have no fully fledged firefighting services, no dedicated personnel for disaster management, no dedicated budgets and all the volunteers are leaving for other jobs because they do not get stipends.

The Siyanda District has not appointed a head for disaster management since the resignation of the last manager a year ago. The district has a fully functional District Disaster Management Centre. It has not completed the district disaster management plan nor has it completed the management framework. It is connected to NEA and trained volunteers with the AFT skid packs are assisting there.

The challenges in this district are basically the same as those in the other districts except that Khara Hais Municipality, which is based in Upington, and the district municipality are the only ones who have fully fledged disaster management and firefighting capacity with dedicated staff and a dedicated budget.

The Kgalagadi district has a fully functional plan and centre without a framework in place and it is also connected to the NEA system.

Namakwa has a fully functional Disaster Management Centre which has not completed the management plan and district management framework. NEA is also connected and the very same challenges that I’ve mentioned in terms of the Category B municipalities apply here as well.

The Frances Baard District has a fully fledged district management plan as well as a centre and a framework in place. It is also connected to NEA and there are AFT firefighting skid packs available.

It is known that in the Frances Baard District we have the Sol Plaatje Municipality which is the only Category B in this area that has a fully fledged and dedicated staff to deal with disaster management.

There, the challenges are again the fact that all of the other municipalities do not have these facilities to assist. We therefore request greater co-operation among all the parties involved, so as to make disaster management assistance easier. Hon Chairperson, I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr R DYANTYI (Western Cape): Just before I proceed, Chairperson, just to make the point to hon Watson and hon Wilkinson, up until 15 September I am available to speak to in terms of having a deliberations talk. [Interjections.]

Chairperson, let me make the point that I come from a province that is disaster-prone. In the Western Cape we have various seasons. In winter we deal with floods. In summer we deal with fires. So, every winter and every summer we know we have to deal with these two issues to an extent that we are going beyond understanding it as a disaster. Something has to be done.

Let me also make the point that as part of our work we have done research and identified that in the Western Cape alone we have 38 hazards that can cause any disaster and may include floods, fires, avian flu and many others. All together there are 38 and therefore that process has to therefore develop planning and response to the type of hazards we have identified which is part of what the Act requires of us to do as provinces.

The Fire Risk Assessment for the 2007-08 fire season in the Western Cape indicated that the good rains have increased vegetation growth. The environmental services study on climate change indicated that we could expect longer and drier summer seasons in the Western Cape. The effect of the two conditions stipulated above on veld fires will be larger and more intense fire incidents that can lead to conflagration and disastrous fires in the province.

The result of such fires in the water catchment areas will be erosion and environmental degradation. Where the fires occur in the fynbos biosphere, it may have the effect of endangered species being lost. Further, results of the loss of these natural resources such as fynbos and flower-picking activities will lead, as my colleague indicated, to loss of livelihoods for close communities depending on fynbos and flower-picking activities and contracts.

The climate change challenge that we are facing may have further effects on informal settlements as it is known that hot warm weather goes with strong winds which could lead to runaway fires in the informal settlements. The impact of these fires will be on the poorest of the poor where they will be losing all of their personal belongings and livelihood. The Western Cape economy will also be affected by veld and forest fires, as well as informal settlement fires.

In terms of our state of preparedness, the current state of fire brigade services in the province, as indicated earlier by other colleagues, is split between Category C and B municipalities – that is your district and local municipalities. Working for Fire, supported by the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry, has planned for nine ground firefighting teams with four teams still in the planning stages awaiting contracts with partners such as Newlands National Park, Knysna and Jonkershoek. The teams will be placed in strategic points in the province according to the veld and forest fire risks.

Whilst on the issue of state of preparedness, I do also want to mention in this House that, as a province, we have up to this point, since last year, mobilised over 800 volunteers, because if we are dealing with issues of fire and disaster, somebody has to be infiltrated and you have to be able to educate and engage with communities if you are at a people-centred stage. That work done, also as a requirement in terms of our Act, we have also as part of the state of preparedness worked with all the 30 municipalities. Each of the 30 municipalities in the Western Cape has been instructed since the last financial year to adopt fire by-laws.

What we have discovered is that whilst disasters can be natural, sometimes there is recklessness which includes two issues here: where people who stay in informal settlements would deliberately, some of them, set another shack on fire to enable relief and so on. I mean, we have to strike with the law and act on those issues. We also are aware of people who throw stompies out of their cars and destroy Table Mountain with veld fires and we are saying that is not a natural disaster. It is human created and has to be dealt with accordingly and therefore each municipality out of the 30 have those fire by-laws that they are going to enforce and there are fines related to that.

We also, as part of that, are convinced that we also have to deal with the cause of risk, because if there are these risks somebody is causing them. Sometimes we can speak and relate to insurance companies in terms of their role; in terms of what role they can play in this.

In terms of our state of readiness in the province: most of the municipalities’ vehicles and equipment are outdated and need replacement or are insufficient to attend to the local risks and cannot support adjacent municipalities without compromising their areas. In this regard, as a province, we have quantified our needs. We have come to the conclusion that what we need is R500 million to replace our equipment.

We have engaged with the Department of Provincial and Local Government, DPLG, and the National Disaster Management Centre in this regard to seek support, but linked to this is the whole issue of maintenance. It is of no use to bring new things when you are not going to budget and maintain the infrastructure that you have and we think that it is very important for us to move forward, because what you are not able to maintain in one year, will cost you close to three times as much later on.

Working on Fire aerial firefighting support by means of helicopters for veld and forest fires and fixed-wing aircraft is in the planning process and has not yet been confirmed. The Department of Local Government and Housing has made, in our province, an amount of R1,7 million available to support municipalities in aerial firefighting. We have based this on what we were able to spend last year where we were supposed to spend R3 million and you can see that R1,7 million is a shortfall of R1,3 if the same extent of fire were to happen in the Western Cape, but we are also going forward in creating around that.

I also want to share with the House, hon members, that we haven’t recorded our needs with the DPLG. We are pleased that on 18 September the Fire Brigade Board nationally is going to be meeting, chaired by Deputy Minister Nomatyala Hangana, where we are reporting and discussing some of these issues and I would urge it would be good if members of this House could also be part of that when we relate some of these issues.

In terms of the issue of disaster risk reduction, we feel that it must be integral in the planning processes, therefore the disaster management chapters are noted by myself and the integrated development plans, IDPs, that were approved. The IDPs that we are approving in this current period – we are very clear that no IDPs are going to be approved if they do not have a disaster management chapter are about planning for that. If you miss it in the IDP, you therefore must take responsibility if you did not plan for it. There is an old saying in our province that we always say …

Daar is ’n groot gat in die dak. As dit nie reën nie sê niemand niks oor water, maar as dit reën, dan weet julle daar is ‘n groot gat in die dak. [There is a big hole in the roof. If it does not rain then nobody says anything about water coming through the roof, but when it rains then they know that there is a big hole in the roof.]

In essence what that says is that disaster management is an ongoing task. It is a process that you have to plan, prepare and budget for. You can’t be shaken when this happens and you are not prepared for it.

We also have the Provincial Disaster Management Centre in this province which is, we believe, well equipped. I think the Eastern Cape and other provinces have exposed themselves and I would like to invite our neighbouring province, the Northern Cape, as part of the three province interprovincial collaboration – Eastern Cape, Western Cape and Northern Cape – to see that as an important project, because we are likely to share resources very soon. [Laughter.]

We have also, as a province, taken it upon ourselves that there is a need for us to engage – to engage with best practices. We have taken two trips so far. We have been to Cuba and Germany, and in Cuba we were exposed to the kind of way in which you involve communities as part of disaster management and we are taking to heart some of those lessons in the present. Recently we have been to Germany, to learn of the way in which they use volunteers and the level of equipment that they have. What is new to us here is very old in Germany, so that you can see that we are far in terms of the level of preparedness around these kinds of issues.

We also need to thank the National Disaster Management Centre for the kind of support they have given us up to now, because we are raising our needs and the National Treasury or National Treasurer being engaged around how we allocate some of this budget around some of these issues. There is an issue here, in general, how to deal with this, especially in their department of resources and capacity.

We want to see how we link up the role of districts, because out of 30 municipalities you are not going to equip each of those 30 municipalities. How do you make the district responsible, etc, on this issue?

In conclusion, I think the other issue that we think is very important, that we will also be discussing on 18 September, is an investment that we make towards 2010. As a country and as provinces are we ready in terms of delivery towards 2010, but also beyond 2010, so that beyond 2010 our provinces in the country have the kind of resources and capacity to deal with some of these issues.

We are embarking on an annual awareness programme in communities about some of the issues. I thank you, Acting Chairperson. [Time expired.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Hon members, I have been alerted by the Table staff that the next speaker, hon Yawa of North West, is not available, so we will continue with speaker number 10 and that is hon Kgoshi Mokoena.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Madam Chairperson, it is known who that person is who likes today better than yesterday but hon Watson’s utterances cannot be left uncorrected. He said the national government and provinces were reluctant or that their involvement in disaster management was very minimal. But he knows very well that our national government and our provinces have acted swiftly to attend to those calamities. He also knows very well that it was for the very first time in this country that when disasters struck, national and provincial leaders, accompanied by local leaders, swiftly went to the affected areas where they conducted the inspection, not to read about them in newspapers or hear about them on the radio. [Interjections.]

Mr A WATSON: Chairperson, would you please, with due respect, call on the speaker to correct his statement? I did not speak about national government. If the hon member wants to quote me he must do so correctly; otherwise he must rest in peace. [Laughter.] The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Madam Chairperson, I would empathise with the hon Watson to have what he said corrected. Maybe we should check that in Hansard. But to say to another member that he must go and die - because he said rest in peace … [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Order! Chief Whip, those were not the words that hon Watson said. You may continue, hon Kgoshi Mokoena.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Thank you, Chairperson. I respect hon Watson so much that I shall not respond to what he said because people might not notice the difference between me and him. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Order! Hon members please stop your private conversations and listen to the member speaking.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, before I deal with issues on this topic, let me, as was rightly conveyed by our Minister and other speakers, also convey our heartfelt condolences to those who lost their loved ones and those who were affected by these fires. Your loss is our loss! It is painful also to note that there are some who died in the mission of saving other people’s lives. I’m referring to our firefighters here. These heroes and heroines will be remembered forever.

In the Limpopo province, for example, there had been 19 incidents of fire- breaks which destroyed 28,5 hectares of blue-gum trees worth R20 000, 70 000 hectares of pine trees worth R1,7 million, six hectares of blue berries of a very high breed, and 3 000 hectares of grassland of which the value is unknown.

In Limpopo we are fortunate that there was no loss of life. Our farmers were able to remove some of the livestock before the fires could break up. We were fortunate also because no building was damaged. We did not see or hear of any fatalities. It was only in our neighbouring town of Graskop where we experienced a lot of damage and loss of lions.

I want us to look at some of the causes of those fires. After a thorough investigation it was established that those fires were caused by cigarette butts, controlled burns that ignited and even people who were just naughty. Now, the question that is directed to all of us in this august House as oversight practitioners is: What would be our intervention in this regard? Are we going to sit and only react or be surprised when such disasters strike? Or are we going to come up with preventative measures to deal with challenges that affect our people as a result of these fires?

I must mention that there used to be the so-called rangers who used to patrol our areas. What prevents our provinces from introducing such measures again? It is imperative that there should be disaster management centres at all strategic points in all our provinces to respond to calls for services. Are these services going to be localised or still be centralised? Do we have competent officials in charge of managing these centres?

It is disturbing to realise that when disaster struck, it took not less than five days to extinguish those fires. It is sad to note that we are always reacting after the fact. Unfortunately the majority of our municipalities are not capacitated to deliver such services. You can imagine when some of these municipalities are unable to compile their own IDPs – their line consultant. What more if they are to manage these services? Municipalities were mandated to deal with health matters but they messed them up. Hence the mandate was withdrawn.

As the NCOP, let us propose that the provinces establish disaster management centres in all areas to help skilled personnel who can handle any situation with speed. Let those centres be well equipped. It is a matter of concern to witness firefighters battling to extinguish a fire but still the building or property burns to ashes in their presence.

Secondly, as this House, let us propose that we have fire stations in all our districts. I experienced an occasion where a particular community waited for a firefighter for two hours. When he finally arrived, a property with three kids inside was burnt to ashes. Thirdly, let us propose to have weather services that are centralised. Let us have units that will be able to have regular meetings with relevant departments and stakeholders.

Fourthly, let provinces develop programmes to address communities about climate change. There is talk of global warming. What roles are played by the country or provinces to enrich these discussions?

What we need to ask as this House is: What are we going to do with people who deliberately cause these fires? After enjoying their puffs they throw cigarette butts anywhere, especially while they are driving. The question that needs to be answered is: what has happened with those fire station managers who are reluctant to attend or respond to calls? I would suggest that if it is true that there are managers who behave like that …

… gagabobona e be thabeng. [… their home will be in the mountains.]

They should not be redeployed to civil society. I hope from now onwards there will be proper co-ordination between relevant stakeholders when handling this kind of choice.

Our thanks go to our national and provincial departments for their swift reaction during the disasters that had occurred previously. I am referring to none other than our people’s leaders – our Minister, the Deputy Minister and MECs in the affected provinces. To you I can only say no matter how deep the bottle, the cream will always be on top. Thank you, Madam Chairperson. [Applause.]

The MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Deputy Chairperson, I would like to thank the Chairperson of the Select Committee on Provincial and Local Government as well as other hon members for their participation in this debate. A special word of thanks to the MECs and other special delegates from provinces for sharing information with the House about what is happening in their respective provinces, and their responses thereto. From this discussion, it is clear that provinces and municipalities have an uneven capacity to present and mitigate disasters. But indeed we need to appreciate the efforts of the MECs and their colleagues in the provinces to attend to this problem of inadequate capacity. We also appreciate these efforts and we need to encourage them to do more.

I want to confirm partly for the ratification of one of the participants in the debate that Mpumalanga and the Western Cape are two of the provinces which have the best organised Working on Fire programmes. [Applause.] It’s important that we encourage the other provinces to take a closer look at what exists in these two provinces in order to see whether they can’t learn from what is being done in these two provinces rather than we invite them in.

Disaster prevention and mitigation, as it has been said in this debate, are not the sole responsibility of the government. I am informed that currently there are 91 registered Fire Protection Associations in the country. We clearly need more of these because these Fire Protection Associations are but one of the forums that bring government and the other stakeholders together to co-ordinate efforts and resources towards preventing disasters and mitigating disasters.

So, it is important that as we do our oversight work, especially as the NCOP, we also need to pay attention to this question: To what extent can we also lend a hand in the effort to mobilise stakeholders other than government to participate in the activities or form these Fire Protection Associations?

I think we also need to encourage members of the public to take the lead in the National Fire Danger Rating Systems which appear on television and the radio and in the print media in order to understand when to take extra precautions against fire. So, sometimes we would decry the lack of resources or the inadequacy of resources when in fact we do not make full use of existing resources in order to insulate ourselves from these problems that we are talking about. So, I am saying let all of us contribute whatever we can in order to improve our nation’s readiness to prevent and mitigate disasters. Otherwise, once more, thank you all for your participation in this debate. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): We want to thank you, hon Minister and the Deputy Minister, for the informative, detailed and explanatory contribution in the debate, and your presence here today. I am sure hon members appreciate your contribution.

Debate concluded.

CONSIDERATION OF PROGRAMME 2009 - REPORT ON REVIEW OF PRIORITIES FOR 2007- 08 AND 2008-09 FINANCIAL YEARS

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Deputy Chairperson, hon members, hon special delegates and MECs present today, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to give a statement on Programme 2009.

Programme 2009 serves as our guide in the performance of the work of the National Council of Provinces – NCOP - during this term. The document lists four main targets that we must achieve by the end of this term. It states that by 2009 the NCOP must have done the following things - I am quoting these purposely so that all chairpersons of committees, as they deliberate in their committees and do their oversight, plan. Make sure that these get into your plans and that you achieve these issues.

Firstly, we need to increase oversight work, guided by the input from the provinces and local government regarding their needs and interests. Secondly, there must be promoted public participation with a clear impact on service delivery and the work of Parliament. Thirdly, there must be ensured improved support to local government through closely monitoring government programmes at municipal level. Fourthly, there must be ensured improved intergovernmental relations as a result of the NCOP’s sustained contribution to building the system of co-operative government.

You know those from the past three years. We have been talking about them in our workshops and debating them also in this House. We also debated them in our summit that we had in May.

Now, the document in front of us contains a breakdown of the work that we need to do to achieve these targets. As we agreed at the beginning of last year, each year we would revise the priorities so that we are able to focus on key areas of our work, given changing circumstances.

A few months ago I presented a set of priorities to the Whippery and chairpersonship of the committees. My proposal was that we have a long-term view this time and look at the priorities from now until the end of 2009. My belief is that it is not likely that we can have major policy shifts during the remaining part of the current term. Also, having a long-term view would help with planning and ensuring that we have the resources needed to carry out this function for the work that we are supposed to do as committee chairpersons and presiding officers.

We agreed at that meeting that while such an approach is correct, to set our priorities until the end of the term, we must be flexible and be prepared to revisit the document if circumstances do change. We will certainly do so as the importance of this document is its relevance to prevailing circumstances.

I want to deal with the key service delivery focuses that we are dealing with in Programme 2009. The first one is a social transformation in terms of education, health, housing, social security, sport and recreation, and land and agriculture. The second one is empowerment of women and youth; creation of economic opportunities; Asgisa and Jipsa; public transport and infrastructure; Expanded Public Works Programmes; and job creation. The third one is safety and security - to boost community involvement, and create domestic violence and crime-fighting strategies. The fourth one is governance and local service and that is local government capacity, assistance to local government, and intergovernmental fiscal administration.

You will recall that last year we said we must be biased towards supporting delivery at local government level and I hope that all of us and all the committees are planning to do that, because that is where the major delivery of services takes place. It is at local government level. If we don’t get in there and go and support those local government structures, then we would find that we are lacking somehow in performing our oversight function.

The follow-up on issues from 2004 comprises a selection of issues from the state of the nation address. Issues from 2004-07 are categorised according to key focus areas, looking at a framework and quality and impact of service delivery.

The other thing we have to look into is the issue of the legislation. This means the identification of some key section 76 legislation, from 1997 to date, to dedicate follow-ups and to list these pieces of legislation as it is contained in the revised document that we have tabled this afternoon. The list includes, for example, the Water Services Act, Adult Basic Education and Training Act, National Health Act and Older Persons Act. We have just identified those four pieces of legislation. What we are requesting those committees to do is that they should take those pieces of legislation, and scrutinise them, whether they are implemented or not.

We believe they are key and important pieces of legislation. What’s happening with the Older Persons Act? Is it being implemented in draft or are there perhaps problems with this Act? What is happening with the National Health Act? Is it being implemented in the draft or are there problems and gaps on the ground to implement this Act? What is happening with the Water Services Act? Is it being implemented on the ground or are there problems? Let’s take the Adult Basic Education and Training Act.

We have just mentioned those four pieces of legislation to say, look at them and come back and report in the NCOP. Debate and give us a sort of introspection into these particular pieces of legislation – whether they impact on the lives of our people or how they impact on the lives of our people on the ground. Internal and external relations is one issue that is contained in the document. Internal relations: this section deals with the promotion of principles of intergovernmental relations and co-operative government and the monitoring of decisions of intergovernmental relations forums and government plans. Yesterday, Tuesday, we had a workshop on intergovernmental relations where we have been examining the expenditure of provinces in seven years and stating how the provinces are spending the money that you allocate to them in terms of the division of revenue.

These are the issues that we have to take very seriously and monitor very seriously on the ground. As the Minister of Finance said yesterday, you would like to know where every cent has gone to and what it has been spent on, as you have allocated it to the provinces.

In terms of intergovernmental relations, that becomes very important – how you also relate to the other spheres of government and legislatures in dealing with those issues.

Now, external relations: this section deals with the need to prioritise Africa and developments within the continent when it comes to international participation. It is a very crucial issue. I have said myself there is a lot that we can learn in Africa, not only in Europe and America. You still get this trend that our committees really like to go to America. They would rather go there to learn than to Nigeria or Ghana or the Congo. You can learn a lot of things on the continent.

In respect of the international agreements that we ratify in this House and even in the other House - we have entered into agreements with many of the continent’s countries. What are we doing about this in terms of monitoring it and sharing our experiences with other countries on the continent? But no, if I look at your international travel and study tours, you still want to learn from Europe, you still want to learn from America. At what stage are we going to learn from Africa and really deal with critical issues that are affecting us as a continent in Africa? Those are becoming the key and important issues.

I can raise just one similar issue that I deal with myself, economic empowerment. What is happening with trade within Parliament? Those are the things we should be looking at, because we should be saying, let us trade with each other on the continent and when we do that we will then be increasing our economy, stabilising our economy, improving our economy, growing our economy - because we traded with each other.

I normally ask this very important question: Where does all the oil that Nigeria has go to? It goes to America. It goes to Europe. Why can’t it come to South Africa? Why can’t it go to Zambia? Why can’t it go to Namibia? Why can’t it go to the other countries on the continent? The overproduction can go to other countries.

I normally ask the question: What happens to the platinum that is mined in such large quantities in South Africa? Where does it go to? It goes somewhere else. It comes back to South Africa after it has been polished and we buy it at great expense and we think we are doing very well. I asked some people in Ghana: “Do you enjoy nice chocolates?” They said to me: “Mahlangu, yes we do.” I said: “What happens to your cocoa?” They said it goes to Europe. Then what happens? London produces very nice chocolates and they send it back to Ghana, where it is bought at great expense and enjoyed.

What is happening to our gold? All those things: the rings that you are wearing there. Where is gold being polished and being made into jewellery right now? Are we doing enough on the continent to supply and process these things ourselves? That is the type of issue I am trying to raise with the people. Let’s focus also on internal relations, on the issues of the continent and not only America, Europe and Russia, etc.

Coming to the systems and mechanisms that are covered in this document, these are the ways and means to improve effective implementation of the above-mentioned first three priority areas that I’ve spoken about. Now what we need in putting those mechanisms in place is proper planning and co- ordination. We must implement these systems and mechanisms to focus and manage the NCOP work through the Whippery and committees.

It’s very important to engage the provinces on all these issues so that we work together. The reporting system becomes very important. Regular reporting on the impact of Programmes and activities should be linked with programme 2009 and include political oversight. In this respect we will have improved the format of committee reports so that they relate to the objectives of Programme 2009.

Hon Shiceka, when you give a report in this House for a debate, it’s not necessary to tell this House you met on 21 March and you deliberated on this legislation, full stop. I’m not interested in that. What we are interested in is the content of the report. If you have been dealing with a piece of legislation that focuses on local government, what is the content of that legislation? That’s what we are looking for.

I know you met on 21 March, but what were the critical issues raised in the public hearings? How did you, in terms of that particular legislation, produce a quality piece of legislation? If you do your provincial oversight work visit, I’m not interested to hear that you’ve been in the Eastern Cape on this or that day, you met with the mayor, you met with the councillors, full stop.

I know you’ve been there, but what I want to know is what you’ve discovered whilst you were there, what the programme is that you’re putting in place to deal with the problems that you have encountered and what it is that you have shared with your colleagues in the province or municipality to deal with those issues. That’s the content of the type of report that we would like to have. And it must talk to Programme 2009, it must not be a programme that is hanging in the air and is not talking to anything.

Now those are the important things. One last thing under the reports that I want to capture very clearly is this: It does not help us to come to the end of the year here in this House, then put up a pile of reports and run them through quickly like a tape recorder, and then we adjourn and leave. What is important is that committees must produce quarterly reports. We have requested this. We debate them because we shall have time to debate them, even if we spend a whole day debating quarterly reports.

Then, towards the end of the year, we compile our annual report, which we can table in the ATCs, and we don’t have to go back to the reports which we’ve produced. As we produce these reports it helps us to say what the things are that we have not done in the previous quarter, what the things are that we have to carry over to the next quarter, so that when we report on the next quarter we can measure our performance and ourselves, or set a benchmark in terms of the work of the committee. The demands placed on us as a result of oversight work that we must do to advance the struggle against poverty and underdevelopment require us to work smarter. Hence the need to identify the above areas we think are critical.

The reality is that in order to carry out this mandate in a meaningful way the NCOP needs to be focused. If we are not focused we will not be able to achieve our objectives, as we said. We cannot do everything. We cannot. We are a small House. We wish we could do everything, but we can’t. Hence we have tried to guide committees to identify key areas that we should work on. It is therefore the intention of this document to ensure that we focus our work. I’m confident that we can focus on doing the things we have identified above. We can go a long way in terms of making an impact on the lives of our people.

If the House agrees with these revised priorities as contained on page 10 of yesterday’s ATCs, we will make available a pocket-sized book for easy reference so that members, wherever they are, can take it along and consult it with regard to whatever they want to do. It will be a small book like the Constitution. You can put it in your pocket or briefcase. Every member will have one so that you are in a position to check every time when you meet in the committee and look at your plan as to whether the issues which we’ve raised in this document are captured in your work from day to day.

So we will print that book for you. We want you to always carry this document to remind yourself during your engagement with your meetings or site visits of our aggrieved areas of focus towards achieving the targets I spoke about earlier in the same way that you always carry your Constitution. I commend the proposed revised priority for the current and next financial year to this House. I thank you very much.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): I shall now put the question. The question is that the report be adopted. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. Are all the delegation heads present?

HON MEMBERS: Yes!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): In accordance with Rule 71 I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make their declaration of vote if they so wish.

We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour or against or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Mr M O ROBERTSON: Eastern Cape supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Free State?

Mr T S SETONA: Free State supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Gauteng?

Mr S SHICEKA: Gauteng supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI: KwaZulu-Natal elethu. [KwaZulu-Natal supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Limpopo?

Ms H F MATLANYANE: Ri a tikedza. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Mpumalanga?

Ms F NYANDA: Mpumalanga supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Northern Cape?

Mr C M GOEIEMAN: Kapa Bokone e ema nokeng go menagane. [Northern Cape supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: Ke ya rona. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Western Cape?

Mr F ADAMS: Wes-Kaap ondersteun. [Tussenwerpsels.] [Western Cape supports. [Interjections.]]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Nine provinces have voted in favour. I therefore declare the report agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The Council adjourned at 15:42. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Assent by President in respect of Bill

(a)    Pension Funds Amendment Bill [B 11B – 2007 (Reprint)] – Act No
     11 of 2007 (assented to and signed by President on 26 August
     2007).

National Council of Provinces

The Chairperson

1. Message from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces in respect of Bill passed and transmitted

(1)    Bill passed by National Assembly on 6 September 2007 and
     transmitted for concurrence:


     (a)     Transport Agencies General Laws Amendment Bill [B 27B –
          2007] (National Assembly – sec 75).


          The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on Public
          Services of the National Council of Provinces.

TABLINGS National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Transport

(a)    Report and Financial Statements of the South African National
     Roads Agency Limited (SANRAL) for 2006-2007, including the Report
     of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2006-2007
     [RP 27-2007].

1. The Minister for Public Enterprises

(a)    Report and Financial Statements of Eskom Holdings Limited
     (Eskom) for 2006-2007, including the Reports of the Independent
     Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2006-2007.

1. The Minister of Trade and Industry

(a)    Report and Financial Statements of the National Lotteries Board
     for 2006-2007, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
     Financial Statements for 2006-2007 [RP 170-2007].

(b)    Report and Financial Statements of the Competition Tribunal for
     2005-2006, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
     Financial Statements for 2005-2006 [RP 125-2007].

(c)    Report and Financial Statements of the National Credit Regulator
     (NCR) for the ten months ended 31 March 2007, including the Report
     of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for the ten
     months ended 31 March 2007.

(d)    Report and Financial Statements of the South African Quality
     Institute for 2006-2007, including the Report of the Independent
     Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2006-2007.

(e)    Report and Financial Statements of the Estate Agency Affairs
     Board for 2006-2007, including the Report of the Independent
     Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2006-2007.

(f)    Report and Financial Statements of the Estate Agency Affairs
     Board for 2005-2006, including the Report of the Independent
     Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2005-2006.

(g)    Report and Financial Statements of the International Trade
     Administration Commission of South Africa for 2006-2007, including
     the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for
     2006-2007 [RP 91-2007].

(h)    Report and Financial Statements of Khula Enterprise Finance
     Limited for 2006-2007, including the Report of the Independent
     Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2006-2007.

(i)    Report and Financial Statements of the South African Micro-
     finance Apex Fund for 2006-2007, including the Report of the
     Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2006-2007


(j)    Report of the Strategic Industrial Projects (SIP) for April 2002
     to March 2007.

National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Finance

Provincial Budgets and Expenditure Review, 2003/04 - 2009/10 [RP 140-
     2007].


     Referred to the Select Committee on Education and Recreation, the
     Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs, the Select
     Committee on Public Services, the Select Committee on Finance and
     the Select Committee on Social Services for consideration and
     report.

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Council of Provinces

1. Report of the Select Committee on Finance on the Diamond Export Levy Bill [B 22 – 2007] (National Assembly – sec 77), dated 5 September 2007:

   The Select Committee on Finance, having considered the subject of the Diamond Export Levy Bill [B 22 – 2007] (National Assembly – sec 77), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a Money Bill, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

2. Report of the Select Committee on Finance on the Diamond Export Levy (Administration) Bill [B 23 – 2007] (National Assembly – sec 75), dated 5 September 2007:

   The Select Committee on Finance, having considered the subject of the Diamond Export Levy (Administration) Bill [B 23 - 2007] (National Assembly – sec 75), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

3. Report of the Select Committee on Finance on the Banks Amendment Bill [B 12B – 2007] (National Assembly – sec 75), dated 5 September 2007:

   The Select Committee on Finance, having considered the subject of the Banks Amendment Bill [B 12B – 2007] (National Assembly – sec 75), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.