TUESDAY, 11 SEPTEMBER 2007 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
                                ____

The Council met at 14:02.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

                   QUESTIONS TO RECEIVE PRECEDENCE

                           (Announcement)

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I have been informed that the Whippery has agreed that there will be no notices of motion or motions without notice today. We will therefore go straight to the Questions to the Deputy President. [Interjections.]

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT

Progress in addressing constraints on economic growth, and supplementing of infrastructure allocations of certain provinces

1. Mr V V Z Windvoël (ANC) asked the Deputy President:

   (1) What progress is the government making in addressing the constraints on economic growth, such as the massive backlogs in infrastructure, deficiencies in logistics at ports and a considerable concentration of production inland, that were identified before the launch of the Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative for South Africa (Asgisa) in 2004;

   (2) whether the government is considering supplementing the infrastructure allocations to provinces with a large concentration of economic activities that benefit other provinces, as in the case of Mpumalanga with its coal-related economic activities; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? CO1994E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, as members would know, one of the six interventions of Asgisa is in the area of infrastructure. The intervention in this area is aimed at addressing backlogs and deficiencies. Both the annual report and my comments on Asgisa to the National Assembly on 22 August stated that we were making progress in this area. Already, an amount of R415 billion for the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework period 2007 to 2010 has been committed for both social and economic infrastructure over the MTEF period.

Progress is being made in transport, energy, information and communication technology, as well as in water and sanitation. As part of the massive infrastructure investment programme, Eskom has built two new open-cycle gas turbines in Mossel Bay and Atlantis. These two power stations represent the first built in the new era.

Eskom is recommissioning Camden, Komati and Grootvlei. Construction of the Ingula Pump Station in the Drakensberg has started, as well as the building of the new R80 billion power station in Lephalale.

In addition, Transnet’s five-year capex plans have been revised up from R3,2 billion to R78 billion since October 2006, with major investments in iron ore and coal lines and huge orders for locomotives and port operations.

Government is not considering supplementing infrastructure allocations for provinces. However, as members would know, combined provincial budgets account for 42% of total government noninterest expenditure, with 96% of provincial revenue funded from national transfers, and 82% of this consisting of the equitable share. This equitable share has grown at an average rate of 11,9% from 2003-04 to 2006-07. This growth is in line with government’s prioritisation of social services, namely education, health and welfare. It also allows provinces greater choices to rehabilitate and maintain road networks and to support business development and rural areas as well as agricultural support.

In addition, the conditional grant has grown rapidly. In the current MTEF, the housing and human settlement grant increases from R6,7 billion to R11,5 billion.

The health grant saw an increase of R3 billion from R10,2 billion to R13,2 billion. In infrastructure, the grant also increased from R3 billion to R5 billion.

We cannot deprioritise infrastructure as we clearly need to upscale local economic development and work in growth and development strategies.

The biggest challenge that we face is the quality of expenditure and the need for skills to eliminate these problems in some of the provinces. That is why we are exploring skills support for provinces as well, similar to the initiative that was taken by the municipalities through Siyenza Manje.

SOSISWEBHU WEMKHANDLU WAVELONKHE WETIFUNDZA: Mgcinisihlalo, ngitsandza kubonga imphendvulo lesiyinikwa Lisekela Lamengameli. Umbuto wami lolandzelako kakhulukati umayelana nekukhicitwa kwemandla agezi njengoba sati kutsi sifundza saseMpumalanga sikhicita emaphesenti langetulu kwalangu 70%. Siyati kutsi kuye kwaba nesincumo sahulumende wavelonkhe sekutsi kuhle kwengetwe kukhicitwa kwemandla agezi kuze sive saseNingizimu Afrika sikhone kumelana nalentfutfuko ledzinga lamandla agezi.

Hulumende ngeke yini akubone kukuhle kutsi njengobe sekunemaloli lamanyenti kangaka lalayisha kakhulu emalahle bese kufa imigwaco; kantsi hulumende wesifundza abengakakucapheli loko ngesikhatsi ahlela tinhlelo takhe kutsi kungenteka ngekuhamba kwesikhatsi lemigwaco iguculwe ibe ngimigwaco lemikhulu yavelonkhe. Kumbe kungenteka yini, ngandlela tsite, kutsi umtfwalo wekulungiswa kwaleyo migwaco kubuye kube ngalapha ngasesikhwameni savelonkhe? (Translation of Siswati paragraphs follows.)

[The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I would like to thank our hon Deputy President for the response she has given. My next question is mainly about the production of electrical power, since we know that the Mpumalanga province produces more than 70%. We know that there has been a resolution made by the national government that it would be good if we increased the production of electricity power so that South African citizens can keep up with the demands of electrical power usage.

Is the government not going to notice that there are now many trucks that carry coal and destroy roads; was the provincial government not aware of that when planning its programmes, so that as time went by they would transform the roads into national roads? Is there any other way: perhaps the transformation of roads can be funded by the National Treasury?]

IPHINI LIKAMONGAMELI: Ngiyabonga Lungu elohloniphekile, into eyenzekayo ngendaba yale migwaqo, ukuthi sizowakha ujantshi. Yiwo ozothwala amalahle ukuze sikwazi ukuphumuza imigwaqo ingathwali kakhulu. UMnyango Wezokuthutha waseMpumalanga usebenzisana noMnyango Wezokuthutha kazwelonke kanye no- Eskom. Sebevumelene ngendlela abazokwazi ngayo ukuyibheka le nto.

Kule nyanga edlule ngiye ngahlangana nabo ngalolu daba, bangitshela ukuthi uma sebevumelene ukuthi bazowuphumuza kanjani umgwaqo ngesikhathi besalinde ukuthi kwakhiwe ujantshi. Uma sebeqede ukuvumelana bazosibhalela incwadi basichazele. Ikhona indlela yokuyibheka le nto. U-Eskom ushilo yena wathi uzobanika imali ukuze umthwalo womgwaqo ungabi wumthwalo wesifundazwe. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon member. What is happening about this situation with the roads is that we are going to change this by building a railway line. It is going to be used for transporting coal so that we can reduce traffic on the road. The department of roads and transport in Mpumalanga is working hand in hand with the national Department of Transport and also with Eskom. They have agreed on the manner in which they are going to look at this.

Last month I met with them regarding this matter, and they told me that once they have agreed on how they are going to reduce traffic congestion whilst waiting for the construction of the railway line they would write us a letter and explain the situation to us. There is a way of handling this. Eskom did promise that they would give them the money to build the road so that the road problem does not become a provincial problem.]

Measures to ensure easier access to start-up finance and reduce regulatory constraints, with particular reference to previously by marginalised groups

1. Mr V V Z Windvoël (ANC) asked the Deputy President:

   (1) Whether, since the launch of the Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative for South Africa, Asgisa, the government has had any formal engagement with the private sector, particularly banks, to ensure easier access to start-up finance for business ventures and initiatives and to reduce the regulatory constraints on small businesses; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details; (2) whether there are indications of improvement in the awarding of business loans and related support to entrepreneurs from previously marginalised groups like women, rural communities and the youth; if not, what are the constraints; if so, what are the relevant details? CO1995E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chair, government has been in consultation with all stakeholders in the business sector, including banks, even before the inception of Asgisa. Such consultations have taken place through business associations such as the National Business Initiative, the Big Business Working Group, Business Unity SA, Nafcoc, and others. In all these fora, banks are represented directly and through the Banking Council of South Africa.

The financing of SMMEs has been identified as one of the key interventions in the second economy in the Asgisa programme. Asgisa does not do everything, as you know. We do not replace departments and we are not responsible for the overall programme of action of government. So, in the ongoing consultations with banks, the DTI and the National Treasury have been the leading departments.

Discussions have continued with major banks as well as with development finance institutions such as Khula Enterprise, the Industrial Development Corporation – the IDC - and the National Empowerment Fund and other nongovernmental organisations that are involved in financing SMMEs. The Department of Housing, the DTI and the National Treasury also represent government in the Financial Services Charter Committee.

Access to finance is a key deliverable in the Financial Services Charter, especially for SMMEs and financial services to the unbanked. As you know, progress has been made in relation to Mzansi. Progress is also being made through other BEE charters, where the financing of transactions is also important. Many companies that have entered into large BEE deals have assisted their partners to raise funds.

But, I will agree that more still needs to be done. Banks need to offer more business credit rather than consumption loans to their customers. While it is important to ease regulations in relation to access to finance, we also need to manage our overindebtedness as a country and as individuals

• hence, the need for the National Credit Act.

It is important, hon members, to recognise that SMME support should be multifaceted. It must involve banking services. But it must also involve nonfinancial support including issues such as market access – some of which can be done through favourable procurement opportunities. It must also include capacity-building such as mentorship and enterprise development that is directed at SMMEs.

I also want to highlight the fact that in relation to support for women and their access to finance, the Women’s Entrepreneurial Fund by the DTI is also going to be launched. Deputy Minister Thabethe has been working on this initiative. Co-operative finance, in partnership with Old Mutual, is also unfolding to fund micro enterprises as well as family business co- operatives.

Regulatory constraints on small businesses are being addressed through a Regulatory Impact Assessment process which has been completed by the Presidency. The Co-operative Banks Bill, which the NA is passing this afternoon and which will then be submitted to the NCOP, also seeks to enhance access to finance by poorer communities, individuals, small businesses and co-operatives. By promoting such regulated and orderly assistance to SMMEs we are ensuring that we develop sustainable and responsible business practices. Thank you.

Mr J W LE ROUX: Deputy President, do you think that labour laws would also possibly be changed as a result of the reduction in the regulatory constraints? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think that the two things are different, hon member.

            Trade agreement signed with Indian government

1. Kgoshi M L Mokoena (ANC) asked the Deputy President: (1) Whether any trade agreements have been signed with the Indian government; if so, (a) what areas of trade form part of the agreements and (b) what informed the government to look into these specific areas;

   (2) whether skills development was considered when these agreements were signed; if not, (a) why not and (b) how will ordinary South Africans benefit from this exercise; if so, what are the relevant details? CO2022E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson and hon members, yes, a trade agreement was signed on 22 August 1994 with the Indian government. This agreement is a general trade agreement using a standard format which is used internationally in agreements of this nature. The details of the specific areas covered by the agreement can be obtained from the Minister of Trade and Industry.

South Africa and India, however, have a co-operation agreement through the Joint Initiative for Priority Skills Acquisition, Jipsa, on the international placement of students. So far, co-operation in this area has been with Indian companies, even though the Indian government does support this initiative. This is in relation to the placement of unemployed graduates and mid-careered professional women in the main.

The areas of placement are in scarce skills such as information and communications technology, finance, project management and engineering. The placement opportunities are advertised in the media, and information is also shared with interested counterparts at provincial as well as at local government level.

A total of 19 000 students have been placed, in the last 18 months, in South Africa and overseas. Seven hundred of these 19 000 students have been placed overseas and, of the 700 placed overseas, 185 are in India. There are a further 217 candidates that will also be placed in India soon.

The opportunities for training in India have been renowned in South Africa and have strengthened our bilateral relations. We have also learnt a lot from India about cost-effectiveness in training, quality training and emphasis on entrepreneurial development as a component of providing skills to young people.

I must just add that I know that the Minister of Education and the Minister for the Public Service and Administration have also been holding discussions with the Indians about collaborating with them to support the enhancement of teaching maths and science. It is work in progress. Even though we do not have a stand-alone agreement, definitely the co-operation is robust. Thank you.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Modulasetulo, a ke leboge karabo yeo ke e filwego ke mohlomphegi Motlatšapresidente, mong’aka. Ke mo leboga go menagane go bona gore mmušo wa gešo o kgona go hlokomela ditšhuana tšeo e lego mangwaya-mpa. Potšišo ya ka ya go latela mohlomphegi ke gore a e ka ba thušo yeo e tla fihlišwa le kua magaeng, moo basadi ba ithwešago ka letolo gammogo le bana bao ba hlaotšwego ke mmušo gore ba hwetše thušo? A e ka ba re lebeletše gore re sekamele kudu ka kua go bao ba tšwago diprofenseng tšeo go thwego di ikgonere? (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)

[Kgoši M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, let me thank the hon Deputy President for her response. I thank her very much on account of our government’s assistance to the poor of the poorest. My next question is whether this kind of assistance would reach the rural areas, where women are mostly engaged in self-help schemes and where children have been identified to receive government grants. Are we only focused on the so-called poor provinces?]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Ke solofela gore o ne o sa botse o ne o bua fela. [I guess you were not asking, but just talking.] [Laughter.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The question I heard was: Does help reach the rural women who are also suffering? Am I representing you well, Kgoši Mokoena?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Nyaa! [No!] [Laughter.] The training that we have been doing, specifically in this programme, is for graduates. Ordinary people would not automatically qualify. There is a vigorous process of selection. However, there is a bias in the programme in the sense that we take many of these graduates from the rural areas, because it is those people in the rural areas who are likely to find jobs that feed the kind of qualifications they have. Therefore, an ordinary person’s child benefits.

uNks N D NTWANAMBI: Enkosi Mhlalingaphambili, Sekela Mongameli ndibabonile aba abaphathiswa babini benqwala ngengokuba ubusitsho. Ndiyababona naxa bekuncumela kwaye ndifuna ukuqonda ke ngoku ukuba ngokwalo mba ingaba uqoqosho lwasemaphondweni lona lukhula kangakanani na. Enkosi.

SEKELA MONGAMELI: Enkosi Mhlalingaphambili, nakuwe Qabane ngombuzo wakho, besikhe sandwendwela amaphondo xa ewonke kwaye asikagqibi ukwenza oko sisasalelwe yiGauteng kunye neleFreyisitata kuwo wonke la sele siwahambele sijonga ikqubela nophuhlo kuwo alikho esilifumnise lingakhuli. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[Mrs N D NTWANAMBI: Thank you, Chairperson. Deputy President, I saw these two Ministers nodding as you were talking. I can see them when they are smiling at you, and I want to know then in relation to this matter how much the economic rate of the provinces grows. Thank you. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Chairperson, and you, Comrade, for your question. We visited all provinces and we are not yet finished doing that as we are still left with Gauteng and the Free State. In all the provinces that we visit we check on the progress and the development and there were none that we found not progressing.]

In fact, there hasn’t been a province in the last two years which had negative growth. That is very encouraging. Even the poorest provinces are growing. The challenge still remains the sharing of the benefits of growth. That is the biggest part in the same way as at the national level …

… sabayon ukuba uqoqosho luyakhula, kodwa ukwabelana ngezoqoqosho ngokohlobo lobukomanisi, loo nto isasixakile. Enkosi. [… we can see the economy is growing, but to share in the economy according to the principles of communism, is still a problem to us. Thank you. ]

 Effectiveness of programmes aimed at empowering women economically

1. Kgoshi M L Mokoena (ANC) asked the Deputy President:

   Whether programmes aimed at empowering women economically have proved to be effective; if not, why not; if so, how are women (a) benefiting from such programmes and (b) empowered to be self-sustaining as a result of these programmes? CO2024E The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, programmes aimed at empowering women economically in the private and public sectors, as well as in politics, are continually evolving. We have not yet seen the ultimate impact of all these developments. As the President stated, we need to move with the necessary speed to ensure greater empowerment in the economy.

As you would know, a recent study sponsored by Nedbank and the Businesswomen’s Association about SA Women in Corporate Leadership Census shows that women constitute only 19,8% of executive managers and 10,7% of directors of the 372 companies that were surveyed. These figures are an improvement on last year’s comparable figures of 14,7% and 7,1% respectively.

However, considering that 41,3% of the working population is female, these figures indicate that there is more work that still needs to be done. The census ranks South Africa above Australia when it comes to the percentage of women who are on boards of directors, and above the United States, Canada and Australia when it comes to executive women managers.

Bangamaqaba laba bantu bakula mazwe. [The people in those countries are barbarians.]

The Department of Trade and Industry has developed an economic empowerment programme for women, which is responding to the fact that the black economic empowerment charters and even our own initiatives put together as government are still not giving us the higher levels of involvement of women in the economy that we aspire to.

Despite all the challenges, however, we have to say that women are making progress. We have seen more and more women taking advantage of the support that we give them. Year after year, we have women in agriculture, for instance, taking great strides, all from humble beginnings. This year’s winner, for instance, of the female farmer of the year award is Mrs Makgoro Mannya, who runs Ditubatse, which is situated in Tzaneen in Limpopo. She produces mangoes, avocadoes, guavas, litchies and atchar. She employs 86 permanent workers and 40 seasonal workers. Their business is beginning to export to the European Union and elsewhere in the world.

We have also seen women in mining, women in science and technology and women in the financial services sector over the years. The SA Women Entrepreneurs Network alone has helped establish 1 800 women-owned businesses, and because of the growing numbers of women entrepreneurs and the slow response by some financiers, the DTI is therefore establishing the Women Entrepreneurs Fund, which will be housed at the Industrial Development Corporation. It would initially be capitalised at R100 million.

Women who have won awards for the Technology for Women in Business programme have also had exposure to international markets and have had technology inputs into their businesses, thus improving their performance.

In addition, there is work to develop co-operatives which will be supported by the co-operative fund which I spoke about earlier on in the context of jobs for growth.

The first baseline survey on the progress of BEE was recently released. The study was commissioned by the Presidency and the DTI and was based on interviews with 1 700 companies. The study found that 12% of companies have exceeded the 10% ownership targeted for black women as set in the BEE Code of Practice for black women to have some economic interest in companies.

On the other hand, 81% of companies have not started the process of involving black women in ownership companies. All in all, 6,1% of the targeted 10% base has been met. We are going to take correctional action, however, where there is underperformance as identified.

Judging by the number of women who are entering and staying in business, the support given to women, limited as it may be, is having an impact. The Presidential Women’s Working Group has also made strides in its efforts to support women empowerment. This women’s working group has come up with a concrete proposal on how to restructure the retirement industry so that it can set up women better. This proposal was presented to the President who supports it enthusiastically.

The proposal is to set up a retirement fund for women which seeks, amongst other things, to increase the participation and benefits of vulnerable groups in the retirement industry. For instance, women represent 33% of retirement fund assets but only 7% of women are represented in the retirement fund as trustees.

The fund is also meant to widen the savings network and improve the savings culture by bringing into the net individuals that are currently outside this net; create a vehicle that mobilises financial resources; act as a force that would ensure that there is greater shareholder activism; and redirect some of the mobilised resources towards programmes and projects that improve the lives of women.

As you know, the trustees who sit in these retirement funds are men and tend to take money from poor black investors and go and invest this in exclusively white areas. There are no benefits therefore for the people who are pension fund members, especially women.

The proposal highlights the need for the inclusion of domestic workers as a sector that is always overlooked, but plays a critical role in our economy. This initiative will also force retirement funds to look at the representation of women in the sector and therefore will ensure that there is greater gender balance in that industry. It would also enable women to increase their savings.

The support for women’s economic empowerment has to be intensified, but a start has been made, especially by the ruling party which clearly puts women on the agenda wherever possible. Thank you.

Kgoši M L MOKOENA: Mutshami wa Xitulu, ndzi lava ku khensa nhlamulo leyi ndzi nga nyikiwa hi Xandla xa Presidente eka leswi a nga swi vula swo saseka ngopfu. Hi khensa hi ndhundhuzela no hoyozela leswi a nga swi vula. Hi ri khoma tano manana wa tiko, u swi khome kahle.

Xivutiso hileswaku: Eka migingiriko ya wena ya ku pfuna vamanana hi swa timali, ha swi kota ku va pfuna leswaku mundzhuku va tiyimela havoxe eka ntirho lowu? [Ku Kavanyeta.] (Translation of Xitsonga paragraphs follows.)

[Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, I would like to thank the Deputy President for the answer that she has just given to me. We are grateful for the answer. Keep it up, mother of the nation: you are on the right track.

The question is: In your intervention on assisting women financially, will it be possible for them to be on their own in future? [Interjections.]]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I am getting interpreting services, but other people say they are not. Could we get it please, on channel 11? Continue, Kgoši Mokoena. You may want to interpret after that, if there is no interpreting service.

Kgoši M L MOKOENA: Mutshami wa Xitulu, Xandla xa Presidente u ndzi twile, u ta hi hlamula. U swi twile hinkwaswo leswi ndzi nga swi vula. Loko a nga swi twangi, ndzi ta engeta, a ndzi na tingana. A swi karhati, ndzi nga thlela ndzi vula leswi ndzi swi vuleke. (Translation of Xitsonga paragraph follows.)

[Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, the Deputy President understand me and she will respond. She heard everything I said. If not, I will repeat it. I am not shy to do so. It is not a problem - I can repeat what I said.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Now mine has also gotten lost. [Laughter.] Channel two, thank you very much. Deputy President, must he repeat himself?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, please.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Kgoši, could you repeat that in the same language?

Kgoši M L MOKOENA: Mutshami wa Xitulu, leswi ndzi nga swi vula hileswaku hi khensa leswi Xandla xa President a nga swi endla eka vamanana laha tikweni ra hina. Hi ri ha khensa migingiriko ya yena ku pfuna vamanana hi swa timali. Hi ri a khome tano, ha n’wi rhandza, u endla kahle swinene. Hi te ha ndhundhuzela na ku hoyozela, nkulukumba.

Kambe xivutiso hi lexi: Eka leswi va swi endlaka swo saseka swonghasi, va ta swi kota ke leswaku vamanana va tiyimela havoxe mundzhuku eka leswi va swi endlaka – va tiyimela havoxe va nga dyeriwi swilo swa vona?

I xivutiso xa mina xolexo, ndzi ri Xandla xa Presidente a hi hlamule. Ndzi khensile. (Translation of Xitsonga paragraphs follows.)

[Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, what I have said is that we are grateful for the assistance given to the women of our country by the Deputy President. We commend her intervention in assisting them financially. We say that she must keep it up. We love her. She is doing a sterling job. We praise and commend you, hon Deputy President.

But the question is: Despite the sterling job that she is doing, will she be able to allow these women to stand on their own in the future, rather than having to depend on people who will rob them of their money? That is my question. Thank you.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: There was interpretation on channel two. Hon Deputy President?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, most of the women are being financed – these are loans anyway – so, there are expectations that they are going to make profits because they have to repay those loans. I am proud to say that the repayment rate by women is much higher than by men. They are becoming self-sufficient. Give them the money.

Mr S SHICEKA: Chairperson, I thank the Deputy President for her responses. Given the good work that is in progress in relation to the empowerment of women, is it possible that the Deputy President could compile the projects that are available and ensure that they are distributed to us as members of this House, given the fact that we are in touch with the communities on the ground in urban and rural areas? This will help us mobilise people to access these opportunities that are available, so that they are not only discussed here. Is that possible, Deputy President? Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, I will ask the Department of Trade and Industry, which is the custodian of this information. Most of this information is actually available on their website, but because we know that not all women have access to technology, we could facilitate, through Members of Parliament, increased access. I will definitely tell DTI.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It is a big challenge for Members of Parliament to access their computers and get this information. It is a reminder to us all.

    Plans with regard to government’s moral regeneration movement

1. Mr M A Mzizi (IFP) asked the Deputy President:

   (1) Whether, in light of the lack of high morals and values at all levels of society, any plans are in place to intensify the government’s Moral Regeneration Movement; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (2) whether the Moral Regeneration Movement has thus far been successful and achieved its objectives; if not, (a) why not and (b) how will the government rectify the situation; if so, what criteria were used to measure the success;

   (3) whether any review of the Moral Regeneration Movement will be considered in order to (a) strengthen it and (b) make it more effective; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? CO2025E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Chair. Hon member, you refer in your question to government’s Moral Regeneration Movement. Let me clarify that there is no government Moral Regeneration Movement. The movement belongs to the people of South Africa in their different formations, such as in faith- based organisations, in business, in youth, in sport, etc.

I would like to repeat what I said last month in the National Assembly, namely that families, parents and communities are the most critical people in this campaign. They need to collaborate with government and other stakeholders.

This responsibility can never and must never be shifted to schools, government and other agencies, because the role of nurturing a child from the time he or she is able to communicate has to be the responsibility of a parent. The issue of instilling moral values should always remain a concern of the parties that have a direct responsibility for each child, whether they are parents, guardians, relatives or siblings.

It is clear that this is a challenge that is preoccupying many of us. I would also like to add my voice that even as government, notwithstanding that we think that we need parents to be more visible, we can do more. I would also like to say that in my office we are working together with the responsible department in this area, the Department of Arts and Culture. We are looking at strengthening this campaign; in particular we want to mobilise families and parents because they are the biggest missing link in this work.

I have also clearly stated that the question of government doing it alone in this context risks having something that is supposed to be a way of life being overregulated and bureaucratised. You cannot legislate on morals, but from government’s side it is the social cluster that is responsible for that work and they have, in the last lekgotla, put some ideas in front of us as part of the initiatives under social cohesion.

This year, an amount of R4,1 million has been allocated for the moral regeneration movement by government. There is a big role for Members of Parliament to play in this regard. As the hon member there was talking about information on business opportunities, I think that, in the same vein, I see Members of Parliament, through their constituencies, playing a significant role in reaching out to the communities and mobilising them in support of positive values.

Changing people’s mind-set is an enormous task that needs continual interventions. It needs a multipronged approach. The success of the renewal of our nation will occur when we all decide to stand up and be counted for the positive contribution that we can engender in our community.

I do just want to say that I am alarmed at the growth of sexism amongst young men. I am just amazed at what one hears being uttered in the media by teenage boys around the issue of gender equity. So, in some ways, I think we are going backwards in some things, but, having said that, I think we also need to be doing more work in making sure that boy children feel loved, welcome and led.

Mnu M A MZIZI: Ngiyabonga Mgcinisihlalo nasePhini likaMongameli. Phini likaMongameli, lo mbuzo asiwubuzi ngoba mhlawumbe sithanda ukuzwa ukuthi kuthiwani ngawo. Ngiyavumelana nawe uma ukhuluma ngabazali ukuthi yibona okufanele engabe bahamba phambili. IsiSuthu sithi: Bontata-bana ba jele morara o bodila, mme jwale meno a bana a ya thella”.

Leso simo sisho ukuthi-ke yebo lezi zibi sizishayela sizibeke phambi kukahulumeni. Sizishayela ngendlela yokuthi uhulumeni phela wathi asilususe uswazi ezinganeni nasezikoleni ngakho-ke izingane sezingamahlongandlebe. Uma ukhuluma nengane isikutshela ngamalungelo. Isizwe siya ngokuya sishabalala ngakho-ke sifuna ukwazi-ke mama ukuthi uhulumeni yena uthini. Embusweni wobandlululo kwakukhona lezi zakhiwo okwakuthiwa izikole zezingane ezigangile – izikole ezazakhelwe amahlongandlebe. Kwakhungekho-ke lokhu okwenzeka manje ngaleso sikhathi sombuso wobandlululo. Ngabe kukhale nyonini kithi ukuze izingane zethu zibe ngondingasithebeni? Kukhona abazali nabanye abantu abapha izingane ezigcwele imigwaqo izimali ukuze zifeze lezi zidingo zazo ngakho-ke lesi sidleke sasemgwaqeni ngeke siphele.

Ngabe uthini uhulumeni kulokho? Phela thina sesephucwe amandla futhi asisakwazi ukushaya ingane. Sakhula sishwaya thina yingakho sikhule saze saba ngaka. Wena ongenhla. Ngehlela ngezansi.

IPHINI LIKAMONGAMELI: Naledi, eyakho le ndaba. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Mr M A MZIZI: Thank you, Chairperson, and the Deputy President. Deputy President, we do not ask this question because we simply want to hear what is being said about it. I concur with you when you say parents are the ones who should take the lead. There is a Sesotho expression which says: “Bontata-bana ba jele morara o bodila, mme jwale meno a bana a ya thella”. [The sins of the fathers are visited upon the children.]

This situation means that indeed we put all the blame on the government. We blame the government because it is the government that said we must stop using corporal punishment on our children at schools. Now children do not want to listen. When you talk to children about something, they simply tell you about their rights. The nation is being destroyed and we need to know what the government is saying about that.

During the apartheid regime we had reformatory schools and these were the schools for children who did not want to listen. And all these things which we see happening now did not occur during the apartheid regime. What went wrong with us that has led us into having children that have become homeless? There are parents and other people who give money to the street kids to meet their needs, and therefore living on the street will not come to an end.

What does the government say about this? We have been disempowered and we can no longer punish children. We grew up being punished and that is why we reached this age. Chairperson, I am finished and I thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Naledi, this question is for you.]

When the Minister of Education answers, she will also touch on this issue – delegation - but having said that, one of the realities that we have to deal with, as parents in the 21st Century, is that …

… asifani nalaba bantwana. [… we are not like these children.]

We are not the same. Just think of the amount of knowledge that our children have as compared to the amount of knowledge that we had in our time. The mass media and many other influences that are there are impacting on them. So, we cannot go against the grain and wishes of the communities that we grew up in. Things are just not the same.

Another thing that we have seen is also a certain degree of emotional instability amongst young people, for instance, suicide.

Uyafuna ukumbetha lo mntwana emva koko ayokuzixhoma, uyabazi banjani? Ngoko ke masibacengeni aba bantwana … [You want to give this child a hiding and after that he or she goes and hangs himself or herself; do you know how they are? Therefore let us plead with these children …]

… but we have to be firm and we have to give them quality time. I think that, as parents, we are overdelegating the responsibility of spending quality time …

… sibangcambazisa aba bantwana. [… communicating with our children.]

There is no substitute for quality time with your children. I am not saying that those of us who grew up under a system where corporal punishment and beating was allowed by parents and even at school are damaged in perpetuity but we lived in a particular era. So, the adjustment is not going to be about government, it is about all of us as society and, again, I say that parents must take responsibility. They must engage with their children at home.

It is also important to say that the overwhelming majority of South African children are good children. So, we must also make sure that when we talk about our children, we do not give the impression that all South African children are problem children.

uNks N D NTWANAMBI: Ndiyabulela Mhlalingaphambili, ndiyangqinelana noSekela Mongameli ukuba induku ayinamzi. Into endifuna ukuyibuza kukuba ingaba abantu bezeenkolo bayakhuthazwa na ukuba benze uchatha bona njengokuba ingabo abona bantu bathetha nabantu ixesha elininzi, ingakumbi xa sithetha ngokushumayeza hayi umsindo ozayo kweli thuba, kodwa ukuguqulwa kwezimo nezimilo kunye neendlela zokuphathana nezokuhlalisana. Andithethi nge “vat en sit” xa ndisithi ukuhlalisana. [Kwahlekwa.] (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[Ms N D NTWANAMBI: I thank you, Chairperson, and I agree with the Deputy President that ill-treating someone is a recipe for disaster. What I want to ask is whether people of faith are encouraged to put in an extra effort as they are the ones who talk mostly to the people. They usually preach about the evils that might crop up for not obeying the word of God, but this time they should talk about the change of conduct and behaviour, the way of treating one another and staying together. I am not talking about the so-called “vat en sit” when I talk about staying together. [Laughter.]]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: There is work that is going on to galvanise us so that we have shared values. There is something called The Charter of Responsibility and there is also in the MRM, The Charter of Positive Values. I also know that there are different initiatives that are meant to target categories of people in society amongst young people. For instance, in the education system there is the Girl Empowerment Movement, GEM, which is something that fulfils the same role as the Girl Guides, the Young Women’s Christian Association and all those organisations that are dedicated to supporting, educating and strengthening the girl-child.

I think we need to support those initiatives. Hon member, I know that you were a primary school teacher of note in your community. You need to go back to your school and continue to find out what is happening there and how we can support the teachers, in order for them to be in a better position to perform these many tasks that we are delegating to them.

I also know that the Department of Education is promoting a campaign called “Adopt a School” through which they are giving us the privilege, as parents and society, to go back to some of the schools we used to go to, or schools that we have access to, in order to support them so that the governing bodies, children and teachers do not feel that they are alone. They would like to see every school have a minimum level of service – not just be a row of classrooms – and that there is proper decorum at school, in the laboratory, on the playing grounds, etc.

So, if you adopt a school, wherever you are at work, when you see freebies, you direct them to the school that you are linked to. If any one of you has not adopted a school, I am very worried, hon members, because all of us have to adopt a school that we can support without taking over.

Singafuni ukuyophatha. Ngiyabonga. [Let us not want to have complete control. Thank you.]

Ms D ROBINSON: Thank you, Chair. I would just like to support what was said previously by the Deputy President about parents needing to take responsibility. I just want to ask whether there has ever been any consideration of using clinics for helping young parents to give them some guidance on how to bring children up. Young people are having children early and very often without the support of sound family structures. Parents are at a loss as to what to do. I think this could be a programme that could help if we actually have parenting skills taught. Thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I’m not sure whether your follow-up question is linked to the question on the Order Paper, but I wouldn’t mind if the Deputy President wishes to express an opinion on it.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I suppose that is advice. Right now, we do not know what is going to work. We are prepared to try a lot of things without being too intrusive. I know that there was a time, not even for young parents, that whenever people went to hospital, they would also be given advice by the medical staff on bringing up children, not just health and medical advice. It is also encouraged that social workers and other people who are part of those social services play a role. Of course, churches are important also for that.

The challenge also of those children who are having children is that sometimes they become disconnected from youth activities and they are not quite a part of the women’s congregation in church. So, there is a need for us to look at the intervention that is targeting those young parents.

This morning, we had a meeting with the Minister of Planning and Development in Chile who is a guest of Mrs Mbeki. As you know, Chile is one of the countries that we are looking at quite intensely because of its success in alleviating poverty and because it has a similar history to South Africa.

They had a horrible dictator and all kinds of things happened there. They are also reconstructing and developing their country. But what was very interesting in their presentation was the extent to which they look at poverty as a spiritual deprivation, hunger, absence of services, etc. For each of these deficiencies they actually look at an intervention so that for this particular category of people in society who are young parents and therefore present a specific need, there is a particular intervention aimed at looking at them.

I’m sure this is something we will be talking about with many of the Ministers from the social cluster who were there, not just in relation to this group but generally to make sure that people living on the margins of society are seen as human beings and not just as numbers of people who must just receive a social grant. They are total beings and they have needs other than just income. Thank you.

     HEALTH QUESTIONS TO BE RESPONDED TO LATER WATER IN THE DAY

                           (Announcement)

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I’d just like to make an announcement that the Health questions will be responded to later in the day. The Health Minister has a meeting with the Deputy President right now, so we will move them towards the end. I was informed by the Minister of Education that she may not be with us throughout because of other commitments but other Ministers will respond on her behalf. I now call upon the Minister of Housing to respond to the question by the hon B L Matlhoahela. I don’t see B L Matlhoahela in the House but for the information of the House, you may respond to the question. [Interjections.] Is she here?

                   SOCIAL SERVICES AND GOVERNANCE

                              Cluster 2 MINISTERS:

Availability of waiting lists for housing in certain areas in Kimberley, Northern Cape

1. Ms B L Matlhoahela (ID) asked the Minister of Housing:

   (1) Whether there are housing waiting lists available for (a) Santa Sentrum, (b) Witdam, (c) Greenside and (d) Diamond Park, Green Point, in Kimberley in the Northern Cape; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (2) whether any plans are in place to develop and uplift these areas; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? CO1128E

The MINISTER OF HOUSING: Thank you very much, Chairperson. When you said, “Matlhoahela”, I thought you were referring to houses only. [Laughter.] The question before me is about the waiting list in the area of Kimberley and my response is as follows: The Sol Plaatje Municipality has confirmed that they only have a very general waiting list for the Kimberley region. This list, broken down vaguely, reads as follows: Santa Centre, which is one of the areas that the hon member wanted to know about, is 33 – that is the need for that area; Witdam is 107; Greenside is 50; Diamond Park is 500; and Green Point is 300. The total is 990.

We, in the Department of Housing, are trying to move away from the concept of a waiting list to the concept of dealing with the need, because inherent in the concept of a waiting list is a great deal of dependency on the state, which we are trying to deal with and the creation of a culture of entitlement. This has become a serious problem. It is the kind of problem we seem to have experienced in the past two days in the Western Cape.

We are trying to say to our communities that we have a responsibility and the communities themselves have a responsibility. The product, which is a house, is a joint responsibility between government and the owners themselves – the beneficiaries, finally. So we want to sell the idea that we are now going to be dealing very comprehensively with the need.

We will define what the need is but the waiting list is a different concept. We want to change to co-operation between ourselves and the beneficiaries. The second part of the question deals with whether or not there are any plans to develop these areas. Our answer is, yes, certainly. The Northern Cape Department of Housing and Local Government is currently compiling a multiyear provincial housing development plan. As most members know, most of these plans have at their core the concept of Integrated Development Plans, IDPs. We are just one element in that IDP planning.

I also want to say that we have plans to ensure that most of these areas, which are informal settlements, are areas that we are giving attention to. So, the question whether or not we have any intention to uplift these areas should be a foregone conclusion. Yes, we have the intention to uplift these areas because these are areas that we have prioritised in our housing scheme. Thank you.

Mr G R KRUMBOCK: Thank you, Chair. Thank you for your answer, Minister. I would like you to elaborate, if you could, on part of the answer you gave about moving away from a concept of a waiting list to one of identifying the need. May I ask you whether that could result in someone who is fairly low down on the existing list being elevated to the top and the people who were at the top therefore moving down? Is that a possibility that could result from this new priority that the department is considering? Thanks.

The MINISTER OF HOUSING: The other question you would have gone on to ask was whether it was possible for the Minister to remove the people from the waiting list. Is that where you were going to, hon member? My answer is yes – I have just done that at Joe Slovo. What we are doing is working on a priority list of criteria and we are working together with the beneficiaries and communities.

When I was in the National Assembly a few months ago, I had the same question. My response was that we have been urged by the National Assembly to create a national database. A transparent process would be an added bonus in assisting us to get to that national database, which would eliminate, firstly, the possibility of any corruption in the allocation of houses, as most members know that we have a serious problem with that; secondly, the removal of any idea that there might be corruption in the allocation of those houses.

If we have a database in the same way as Home Affairs has a population register and in the same way as the Independent Electoral Commission, the IEC, has a voters’ roll, then this is open to all for people to understand whereabouts they are on the waiting list, and the criteria would have been worked on together with the beneficiaries on what our most immediate needs are.

What we, as the Department of Housing, have identified as immediate criteria are age, vulnerability – those people that might be afflicted by some illness - and children. Beyond that, we are working with the communities to work out what criteria we might have. Of course, we have also identified that female-headed households are part of the criteria that we will rank very highly.

So, we are working on a group of criteria, which we are using to put people on the waiting list. By the time the waiting list is consolidated and accepted, nobody may move anybody from anywhere to anywhere else without the permission of the Minister.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Are there any further follow-up questions? No, no, no, no! There are other people, Chief. Miss Nyanda, your hand was up. Not? Oh! Was your hand up? Then hon Thetjeng. Hon Nyanda.

Khuluma-ke sisi. Angithi ngikupha ithuba manje. Nksz F NYANDA: Ngiyabonga, Sihlalo. Bengicela ukubuza kuNgqongqoshe ukuthi lezi zinhla, njengoba ethi bazibekile, zizoba khona kuzo zonke yini izifundazwe ngendlela abeka ngayo ngoba lezi zinhla kwezinye izindawo ziba khona kodwa uma sekukhishwa izindlu kuthathwa abantu abasezansi banikezwe izindlu. Ngiyabonga.

UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEZINDLU: Inkinga yethu yiyo yona leyo yokuthi sizama ukuthi sibe … (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[You may speak, hon member. I am now giving you a chance.

Ms F NYANDA: Thank you, Chairperson. I would like to know from the Minister whether these lists, as she says they have already been compiled, will be available to all the provinces as she puts it, because these lists are there in other places, but when the houses are being allocated, only the people who are at the bottom of the lists are considered. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF HOUSING: That is our problem and we are trying to have …]

… a comprehensive list that is held nationally so that anybody …

… nasezifundazweni bakwazi ukubona ukuthi zihamba kanjani lezi zinhla kodwa abanalo ilungelo lokuthi bashintshe abantu. Inkinga yethu ilapha emphakathini lapho uthola ukuthi umuntu ufika abhalise bese ethola ukuthi obhalise emva kwakhe useyitholile indlu. Izinkinga zethu ziqala lapho bese kubonakala sengathi amakhansela abantu abangethembekile nabanokukhohlakala.

Kuye kwenzeke ukuthi ngesinye isikhathi singabatholi abantu abasohlwini lokulinda ngoba abantu bakithi abahlali kulezi zindawo lezi abasuke befake kuzo izicelo. Bayasuka lapho baye kwenye indawo sithi uma sesibafuna ngoba basohlwini singabatholi. Sinenkinga-ke yalokho kodwa-ke uma sinohla lukazwelonke siyokwazi ukuthi umuntu usesukile KwaZulu-Natali waya eFreyistata bese simsusa lapho simfake kolunye uhla lokulinda. Sisasebenza khona lokho-ke kodwa okumqoka ukuthi sifuna ukwethembeka kohlu lokulinda kubonakale kuthi nezifundazwe zingene kulolo hla lokulinda. Sizama ukuthi izifundazwe namakhansela bangabi nelungelo lokushintsha uhla lokulinda. Kufanele ihlale injalo nje … (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[… even in the provinces, is able to see how these lists are compiled, but they have no right to change the lists of people. Our problem with the communities is that you find that a person registers for a house and you find that the one who registered later has already been allocated a house. Our problems start there and in the end councillors are seen as untrustworthy and corrupt people.

It sometimes happens that we do not find the people who are on the waiting lists because our people do not reside in the places where they have applied for the houses. They move away from where they had registered and live elsewhere and when we look for them, as they are on the lists, we are unable to find them. We have a problem with that, but if we have a national list we will be able to know that a person has moved from KwaZulu-Natal to the Free State and then we would put him on another waiting list.

We are still dealing with that but what is important is that we want to ensure that even the provinces do appear on such a waiting list. We are trying to make sure that the provinces and the councillors do not have a right to change the waiting list. It must remain as it is …]

… very much along the same lines as we have with the population register at Home Affairs. Thank you.

Mr O M THETJENG: Thank you, Chairperson. Thank you, Minister, for the responses. I just want to ask a follow-up question that deals with the prioritisation that sometimes will be based on vulnerability. There are people that are physically challenged – some have lost their sight. You will find that they are not really prioritised at local level in terms of the provision of houses.

I just want to check what can be done in the immediate future to address those challenges of those people who to us are definitely in need of those facilities that are there. That is one part of the question. The other question, Minister, also on the list again: Does it mean that if a person is quite healthy or does not have children, there will be a possibility of that person being moved from the top of the list to the bottom end, vis-à- vis looking at the needs that might be there? I just want to check that. Thank you, Chairperson.

The MINISTER OF HOUSING: Thank you, Chairperson. May I deal with the last part that deals with the question of whether healthy people and those who have no children would be moved from the top to the bottom. I think that we are trying not to be very mechanical in the way that we operate the system. The plea that I had made to the National Assembly was for Members of Parliament and, in this case, members of the House, to get involved in the process of our waiting list because we have a challenge here.

At the moment, the waiting lists are put together by council. You have a right to go and ask for the waiting list and the criteria that have been used in developing that waiting list. Most of the time it is based purely on when people applied, but we have new criteria now that we have just outlined and you might want to sit with them to understand how they should deal with that.

At all times we are dealing with the community, so we get them involved in this. So, we might find that a particular community might not prioritise quite the things that we want to prioritise because they might not have the challenges that we want to put across.

We want to make sure that the elderly, children and people who are vulnerable are given first preference for natural reasons that you and I can understand. These are the people that the state would want to ensure are protected and are given the advantage that the state services are providing.

I think I answered both parts of the question. It refers to both the able- bodied person and those without children. Also, beyond that, we are trying to create a culture where the able-bodied person would come and help us build their own houses because that is something so inherent in human dignity that we do not want to take that away.

We want people to feel that they are part of building their own houses. It never was the intention of this government to give free houses to all. It was the intention of this government to give free houses to those people most deserving of state assistance. We are urging the able-bodied who are still able to work to please take advantage of the fact that we have made inroads into talking to banks and we are putting in place structures to assist them.

If all of that fails and you are not employed, please come and join us to build your house. We call this sweat equity. In that way we will be able to provide you with the house. You will be able to take ownership of something that you would be proud to call your own, not someone that is merely given to you when, in fact, you can assist in making this a different world.

Ms H LAMOELA: Thank you, hon Chair. Thank you, Minister, for the information shared with us today. I would just like to know whether farmworkers will also be included on the waiting list, while working on farms?

The MINISTER OF HOUSING: We have a big challenge in dealing with the rural landscape. We have just had a workshop together with our rural stakeholders to try to craft a policy that is suitable for all. To begin with, people who live on farms do not own the land on which they live. The land is very often owned by the farmer. So, we have to find a way in which we can have a relationship with the farmer in terms of which he can cede a part of the land to ensure that we are able to put houses there for the workers, but this is work in progress.

We hope that very soon we will be able to complete a policy on farm housing because we hope, even as we are building in the urban areas, that if we can provide the same for the rural areas, we will be able perhaps to stem some of the tide into the urban areas where people feel drawn to the urban areas because we are able to provide them with houses in the urban areas. So, it is something that we are working on and something that is really a big problem for us because of the land ownership that we have in the rural areas.

Mnu M A MZIZI: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo noNgqongqoshe. Ngqongqoshe, sebewubuze kakhulu umbuzo wohla lokulinda ngakho bengithi uzofinyelela kulokhu engiya kukho – bengingeke ngisaphakama. Ngqongqoshe, uma sikhuluma ngalezi zinhla nalaba bantu abasemikhukhwini, ngabe siyabacabangela laba bantu abalalela umthetho nabangahambi bayokwakha njengalaphaya ko-Jukskei noma kuphi kodwa abakhe lapha emuva kwezindlu zabantu?

Labo bantu sengathi abekho ndawo. Abantu abathola ukusizakala kuqala ngezindlu yilabaya abasemikhukhwini. Ngabe sithumela muphi umyalezo kulaba bantu abakha emva kwezindlu zabantu futhi abalalela umthetho nabangabekanga impilo yabo engozini? Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Mr M A MZIZI: Thank you, Chairperson and the Minister. Minister, the question of the waiting list has been asked many times and I thought you would have addressed what I want to ask otherwise I would not have risen. Minister, if we talk about these lists and people living in informal settlements, are we being considerate to people who abide by the law and who do not occupy land illegally in areas like Juskei or any other place where they live in the backyards?

It seems like these people are nowhere. People who get first priority are those who live in informal settlements. What message is carried across to those people who build shacks in the backyards and who also abide by the law and who do not put their lives in danger? I thank you.]

The MINISTER OF HOUSING: I didn’t know I would have such a tough time today. Hon Mzizi, I wish you were with me yesterday when the people in Joe Slovo – I’m just making an example – decided to take to the streets, endangering the lives of the motorists there and burning property and all that. You see, when we started the project in Joe Slovo, the biggest problem we were confronted with in Langa were people saying exactly what you are saying. They said they have been here since 1960 but government has not done anything for them. They say they are the law-abiding citizens and their children have spilled over into the backyards. They say that we come here and the first thing we want to do is to build houses for those people who broke the law and settled where they knew they were not supposed to settle.

We had to speak to them and indicate to them that the part of our development and our policy is actually to ensure that we can uplift people who are in informal settlements. It took a long time to convince the residents of Langa. Now, imagine what they are thinking now when, in fact, they were bypassed in development and the development given to those people whom they conceived of as breaking the law.

Today, the very people who have been prioritised are out on the street because they do not want to move so that houses are built for them. It is a very intricate problem when you are dealing with human beings and a need that government has identified as something that we should meet. Beyond that, I think that this is something that we are dealing with on a case-by- case basis.

We now have worked out a ratio where wherever we are dealing with informal settlements, 30%-50% of that would be people from the backyards – to ensure that we are able to cater for all equitably. When we deal with informal settlements, an indication should not be given that we are not building houses for those people who have been waiting. They have been on the waiting list and when we give houses, those are the kinds of people that we are giving houses to.

At the same time, precisely because of the situation that people in the informal settlements find themselves in, we have to attend to them as well. What we are doing now is to give 30%-50% and 50%-70% to ensure that we are even-handed in our approach.

Chairperson, if you will allow me, the last time I had interaction with him he was talking about the hostel dwellers. Exactly two weeks after that, they were out in the streets. They were the same hostel dwellers that he was asking me about. So I hope that I can appeal to him to talk to these people to say that we are really committed to dealing with them and that we will be getting there. They must please give us time to get there. We will provide them with decent housing, not on the street but where they live. Thank you.

   MINISTER OF HEALTH’S QUESTION AND RULES FOR FOLLOW-UP QUESTIONS

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Mr T S Setona): Thank you, hon Minister. Hon members, there are just two things I want to mention. I’m informed that the Minister of Health’s question will be dealt with towards the end of our session of questions, due to her unavailability at this point in time. Secondly, I want to draw members’ attention to the provisions of the Rules of the NCOP with respect to follow-up questions. Follow-up questions are not speeches; there are time limits and only four follow-up questions are permitted. I just wanted to draw members’ attention to that so that we don’t have unnecessary chaos. I’ll therefore proceed to Question 88.

  Particulars of provincial and municipal disaster management plans

1. Mr V V Z Windvoël (ANC) asked the Minister for Provincial and Local Government:

   (a) How many (i) provinces and (ii) municipalities have disaster management plans, (b) what percentage of their budgets is allocated for disaster-related capital expenditure per province and (c) what was the total economic impact of the recent fires that engulfed a number of provinces? CO1993E

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, hon members of the House, the answer to the hon Windvoël is as follows: The co- ordination and overall management of the disaster management function has presented all spheres of government with tremendous challenges. We should remember that all in all we have 283 municipalities in different provinces and a number of national departments and non-governmental organisations are involved in the implementation of this function. One of the major weaknesses relates to the sourcing of information. This has led to government resolving that, from now on, an annual report focusing solely on disaster management should be prepared. The first report will be released before the end of this year, and will cover issues relating to leadership, the establishment of structures, the formulation of disaster management plans and prevention strategies, budget allocations, the availability of basic disaster-related infrastructure and the response to specific disaster-related incidents, amongst other things.

Regarding the specific issues raised by the hon member, I wish to report as follows: Only one province has finalised its disaster management plan, seven provinces are in the process of completing theirs, and one province has not commenced with the drafting of the plan due to capacity constraints. The majority of our metropolitan and district municipalities in secondary cities have either finalised or are in the process of finalising their disaster management plans.

The updated figures will be included in the annual report and the amounts allocated for disaster-related capital expenditure are not available at present. They are being collected and will be included in the 2006-07 disaster management annual report.

The question also focuses on the economic impact arising from the fires which recently engulfed a number of our provinces. This matter was dealt with extensively by the Minister for Provincial and Local Government when he addressed the NCOP last Thursday. He advised the Council that a detailed assessment of damage is currently under way. This is being co-ordinated by the National Disaster Management Centre and involves all affected provinces, municipalities and national sector departments.

I can do no better than to simply advise the hon Windvoël to read the Minister’s speech because, unfortunately, this question came before the Minister came to address the NCOP. I thank you.

SOSISWEBHU WEMKHANDLU WAVELONKHE WETIFUNDZA: Mgcinisihlalo, ngibonga imphendvulo lesiyinikwe ngumhlonishwa Lisekela leNdvuna yeLitiko Lahulumende Betifundza Nebasekhaya. Kuliciniso kutsi lombuto ufakwe kungakafiki lengcoco lebesinayo kuleliviki lelengcile, sitawulindza lombiko wemnyaka lotawuchamuka etikweni.

Sitsandza kwati kutsi ngutiphi tinyatselo letitawutsatfwa litiko ngaletifundza nabomasipala labangenato letinhlelo tekumelana naletehlakalo ngobe saphasisa umtsetfo lobitwa nge-Disaster Management Act, lophocelela kutsi tonkhe tinhlelo nome ematiko abe nalo loluhlelo lekumelana naletehlakalo. Kungabikhona kwaloluhlelo kwenta kutsi silahlekelwe yimiphefumulo leminyenti, kungaba ngenca yemililo, tikhukhula njll.

Njengobe sikhuluma ngekugucuka kwesimo selitulu lesitsi yi- “çlimate change” kutawujabulisa kutsi sati kwekutsi kutawuba netinyatselo letitawutsatfwa Litiko kulandzelela letotinhlangotsi letehlukene tabohulumende, basemakhaya nebetifundza. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of Siswati paragraphs follow.)

[The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I thank the hon Deputy Minister for Provincial and Local Government for the response that we have been given. It is true that this question was submitted prior to a debate we had last week, and we will wait for an annual report from the department.

We would like to know what steps will be taken by the department against those provinces and municipalities that do not have programmes to deal with these disasters because we passed the legislation named the Disaster Management Act, which compels all departments to have these programmes to deal with these disasters. The absence of these programmes causes the loss of so many lives - it can be through fires, floods, etc.

As we are talking about climate change, it will interest us to know that steps will be taken by the department to monitor various spheres of government, local and provincial. I thank you.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, I fully agree with the hon member about what would happen to those municipalities who are unable to deal with these disasters. As I said earlier, the department is in the process of accumulating all these reports from the various municipalities and districts to actually determine what the damage has been.

We’ve not actually been able to collect the information on all the damage that has been done by the latest disasters. As we are proceeding with the process, we are hoping that the districts will assist those municipalities that are struggling to put together that kind of report. They will also see if the capacity is there so that whenever such disasters happen, those municipalities will be able to deal with those disasters. Thank you.

Provision of sanitation and flushing toilets for people in rural areas

1. Nkosk N D Ntwanambi (ANC) ubuza uMphathiswa weZamanzi naMahlathi:

   Ingaba uluntu oluhlala ezilalini luyabandakanyakeka na kugutyulo lwelindle nezindlu zangasese ezigungxulwayo; ukuba akunjalo, kutheni; ukuba kunjalo, zithini iinkcukacha? CO1998X (Translation of isiXhosa question follows.)

90 [Ms N D Ntwanambi (ANC) asked the Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry: Whether sanitation and flushing toilets are also provided for people living in the rural areas; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? CO1998E]

UMPHATHISWA WEMICIMBI YAMANZI NAMAHLATHI: Enkosi Mhlalingaphambili kunye namalungu ahloniphekileyo. Ndingaqala ndithi eyona nto iphambili kuluhlu lwezinto urhulumente afuna ukuzenza kukuhambisa iinkonzo ezilalini. Iinkonzo zamanzi kunye nogutyulo lwelindle ingakumbi, zezona zinto sijongene nazo sileli Sebe leMicimbi yaManzi namaHlathi. Amalungu ayazi ukuba sizibekele amaxesha okuhambisa iinkonzo zamanzi ebantwini ungaphelanga lo nyaka uzayo ka-2008 kunye nezindlu zangasese ungaphelanga oka-2010. Sinawo amaxesha esiwabekileyo okuba siphelise uhambiso lwelindle ngamabhakethe ngoDisemba ka-2007.

Xa sikhangela, ukusulela kunyaka ka-1994 sifumanisa ukuba lihle kakhulu inani labantu abangasenazo izindlu zangasese. Singatsho ukuba njengokuba sithetha ngoku phantse zizigidi ezithathu nangaphezulu zamakhaya angenazindlu zangasese. Asihlelanga nje sibila sisoma ukuqinisekisa ukuba naba bantu bazezi zigidi zithathu bayazifumana iinkonzo zamanzi kunye nogutyulo lwelindle. Into ebalulekileyo kukuba xa sijonge ugutyulo lwelindle okanye izindlu zangasese kufuneka iqwalaselwe izinto ezithile phambi kokuba kuthathwe isigqibo ngeyona ndlela ilungileyo yokuqhuba le nkonzo kwiindawo ngeendawo. Izinto eziye zijongwe kukuba iza kuba ziindleko ezingakanani na ukufaka indlela ethile, eyeyamanzi okanye le ingadingi manzi neyaziwa njenge-dry sanitation. Kujongwa ukuba imali yokuqhuba loo nkonzo ikho na, amathuba emisebenzi aza kuvulwa kukwenza lo msebenzi; loo ndawo inawo na amanzi aza kusetyenziswa xa kugutyulwa elo lindle; iimeko yamanzi angaphantsi komhlaba kuloo ndawo kunye nomgama akuwo emhlabeni, ukukhuseleka kwawo; kunye nokuba zintoni ezikhoyo apho ezizizisetyenziswa zabantu ezinokusetyenziswe xa kukhethwa eyona ndlela yohambiso-lindle kuloo ndawo.

Xa ndisiza ngoku kulo mbuzo wezindlu zangasese ezigungxulwayo, okwangoku inyani mayithethwe ukuba asizo zinto kujongwe ukuba zingakhona ezilalini njengokuba sithetha nje ngenxa yokuba xa kule meko zikuyo ngoku iilali zethu akukho zisetyenziswa zoluntu zikhoyo zinokusetyenziswa ngalo mzuzu ukwenza ukuba ezi zindlu zigungxulwe. Xa ujonga kwakhona inqanaba lenkonzo engumthetho nesivumelene ngayo thina kukuba abantu basezilalini bahlulelane ngamanzi noluntu lonke kuba akukho ziimpompo kwindlu nganye. Loo nto ithetha ukuba akukho ndlela yokuzisa amanzi kumzi ngamnye ukuze sikwazi ukuwakhela indlu yangasese egungxulwayo. Xa uphinda ujonga, ufumanisa ukuba kwalapho ezilalini akukho mibhobho nandlela yakuhambisa eli lindle. Xa sele sifake ezi zindlu zigungxulwayo liza kuhanjiswa njani? Azikho tu ezo zisetyenziswa.

Akukho zindawo zakucoca xa sele lihanjisiwe elo lindle. Ukukhawulelana nezi ngxaki singurhulumente siye sakhangela ukuba zeziphi na iindlela esingazisebenzisayo ukuncedisana noomasipala abanengxaki yabantu abangenazindlu zangasese; abangenwa zizifo. Sathi ke masibonisane ngokuba yeyiphi indlela yohanjiso lwelindle nobuchwepheshe obunokusetyenziswa kwiindawo ngeendawo.

Sibachazele ngale dry sanitation njenge-VIP kwiindawo apho baziyo ukuba abanamanzi kwaphela kulo ngingqi bakuyo. Kwiindawo ezinamanzi kodwa kungekabikho zinkozo ngalo mzumzu bayazibeka ezi VIP’s kodwa bazakhe ngendlela ezakwenza ukuba zikwazi ukulungiswa zingungxuleke nazo xa sekukho amanzi. Kwezinye iindawo sibacebisa ukuba ilindle lingasetyenziswe emva kwexesha elithile ukwakha umanyolo olunokuthi lusetyenziswe kwezolimo nangona siyibawela into yokuba wonke umntu oseMzantsi Afrika afumane iinkonzo ezikwiqondo eliphezulu kule ndawo yesanitation. Ngelishwa ayikwazi kwenzeka yonke lonto kule nkqubo sinayo ngoku nanjengokuba nditshilo ukuba ilindle eligungxulwayo lifuna ukuba kubekho into eninzi phambi kokuba umise ilindle ngokwalo. Kufuneka unxebelelwano nothungelwano lwamanzi ukuhanjiswa kwemibhobho bulk water systems nezinto zokulungisa nayo yonke loonto. Loo nto ithetha ukuba abantu bethu basezilalini bazakuhlala ngolu hlobo behlelelekile; Hayi! Esikwenzayo ngoku kukuzama ukuba wonke umntu ongenazo iinkonzo makafumane iinkonzo ezingundoqo ukuze wonke umntu xa enayo siye kwinto ebizwa ngokuba yileli apho siza kunyuka sijonge ukuba siziphucula njani iinkonzo esele sizikhuphile, sijonge ukuba xa sisenza loo nto zikho na iilali ezinokuthi xa zidityaniswa kukho namashishini kubekho nezinye izinto ekwabelwana ngazo. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Thank you, Chairperson, and hon members. I will start by saying that the most important thing is service delivery in the rural areas amongst the things that the government wants to do. Water services and especially sanitation are the things that we deal with as the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry. The members know that we have set a target to deliver water services to the people before the end of 2008, and toilets before the end of 2010. We also have set a target for ourselves to eradicate the bucket system before the end of this current year in December 2007.

When we look back from 1994 we find that the number of people who do not have toilets has decreased. We can say currently almost three million and more households do not have toilets. We are not relaxed; we are trying to make sure that these three million people and more do get water services and sanitation. It is crucial that when we look at sanitation and/or toilets, certain things are considered before a decision is taken about which way is suitable to proceed with this service in various places. Things that are considered are costs involved in building a certain road even if it is for water infrastructure, dry sanitation. We consider whether the money for doing that service is available, and the employment opportunities that will be created. We look at whether the place has water that will be used when the waste is removed, the condition of underground water in that area and the distance of underground water, and safety of the place. We also look at what things people use or the infrastructure that can be used in an area.

Coming to the question of flushing toilets, let the truth be known that for now these are not things that can be constructed in the rural areas. When you look at the situation of our rural areas there is no infrastructure that can be used to support flushing toilets. When you look again at the standard of services that is law and which we agreed to in that people in the rural areas share public water, there are not water pumps in every house. That means there is no way of bringing water into every house so that we can build flushing toilets. When you look again you discover that in the rural areas there are no pipes, and there is no sanitation system. How is it going to be removed when we have built these flushing toilets? There is none that is being used.

There are no places for waste excretion. When it has been removed, where is it going to be excreted? To deal with these problems, as government we usually look at ways that we can use to assist municipalities with problems of people without toilets, as well as the fact that these people get diseases and the like. We decided to assist each other because when we look at different places, we look at the ways of removing sanitation and the technology that can be used in that respect.

We have told them about dry sanitation like the ventilated improved pit toilets at places where they know that there is no water at all in the area. At a place where there is water, but without water currently, they build these VIPs in a way that they can be corrected when there is water available and they can also be flushed. In other places we advise them about the urine diversion toilets that can be used after a certain period and there is manure that can be used in agriculture, although we would like everybody in South Africa to get services with high standards with regards to sanitation. Unfortunately, it is impossible for that to happen with the programme that we have currently. As I mentioned earlier, flushing toilets require many things before you can have sanitation infrastructure: there has to be a water-supply network, the delivery of pipes, bulk water systems and things to correct all of that. Does that mean our people in the rural areas will remain disadvantaged? No! What we are trying to do now is to try to provide for everybody who does not have a basic service so that when everybody has it, we go to something called a ladder, whereby we can see how to upgrade the services that we have delivered; and when doing that, there are rural areas that can be grouped together and we see if there are businesses and other things that can be shared.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Hon Minister, may I advise you to summarise. I have already given you more than two minutes. Please summarise and if there is a follow-up question you can give a written reply to the member concerned. UMPHATHISWA WEMICIMBI NAMAHLATHI: Enkosi mhlalingaphambili. Hayi besendigqibile ke ndisithi siza kugqithela kule nto endithi yiladder ukunyusa izinga lenkonzo nanjengoko sifikelele kumgangatho wezinto esijolise kuzo. Enkosi.

Nksz N D NTWANAMBI: Enkosi mhlalingaphambili. Ndiyabulela Mphathiswa, ndibuvumelana nawe kwaye ndiyiva kakuhle le nto uyithethayo. Ndifuna nje ukuqonda ukuba ingaba niyasebenza na noomasipala ngakumbi phaya ezilalini. Kwakhona ukubonakalisa ukuba apho kunzima khona iza kubakho na imichiza eza kuncedisana noko ukubulala amavumba kuba kaloku kusehlotyeni kwakhona ngoku. Enkosi.

UMPHATHISWA WEMICIMBI YAMANZI NAMAHLATHI: Ngokuqinisekileyo siya kusebenzisana nooMasipala ngakumbi eli sebe lamanzi nezamaHlathi. Sifikelele phaya ezantsi sincedisana nomasipala ukusukela ngela xesha besenza i-IDP’s zabo kwisicwangciso sincedisana nabo sisebenzisana neSebe lePhondo lemimandla ukuba zamela ukuba bafumane Le mali abayicwangciseleyo. Ukuze sizise iinjineli zize apha ukuza kucebisa, ngoba apha akhona amanzi awekho amanzi uhlobo lwenkonzo enokulunga yile nale, ewe nakwezo bugcisa ezinceda ngemichiza bacetyiswe sithi.

Okubalulekileyo ukuba amalungu mawakwazi kukuba asinyanzelisi ubugcisa okanye ndlela ithile yokufakwa kweenkonzo. Siyacebisa sithi kolu hlahlo- lwabiwo-mali ninalo, kwimeko enikuyo nantsi inkonzo eza kuba ngcono, ibe ke ngoku nguceba ethatha isigqibo sokuba baza kwenza ntoni kodwa sibe sisebenzisene nabo kakhulu. Enkosi. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Thank you, Chairperson. I was concluding and I was saying we are going to move forward to what I call a ladder to upgrade the standard of service, whereas we have reached our target. Thank you.

Ms N D NTWANAMBI: Thank you, Chairperson. I thank you, Minister. Somehow I tend to agree with you and I understand very well what you are talking about. I would like to know if you work with the municipalities especially in the rural areas. It is very difficult to work there, but would there be chemicals to assist them to get rid of the odours because it is summertime again? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Most definitely we will work with the municipalities, especially this Department of Water Affairs and Forestry. We went to grass-roots level to assist the municipalities since they were making their IDPs. In the strategy we were assisting them, together with the Department of Provincial and Local Government, to help them get the money they have planned for, so that we can bring the engineers to them to advise them as to where the water is, the type of service that is suitable, and, yes, with science as well to help with chemicals. They are advised by us.

What is important for members to know is that we do not force technology or the type of services to be used onto people. We advise and tell them, and we look at the budget that they have, look at the circumstances that they face, what type of service is going to be suitable, and the councillor will make a decision as to what they are going to do. But we will have worked with them a great deal. Thank you.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): We now proceed to Question 91. I have just been informed that a Minister whose name had not been brought to my attention was supposed to answer that question, which was directed at the Minister in the Presidency, the hon E G Pahad. I am not sure which Minister it is. There seems to be no reaction and that makes my work much easier. I will now proceed to Question 92, printed in the name of the hon Ntwanambi to the Minister of Home Affairs.

Progress in assisting women who have been registered as married without their permission, and in eliminating identity fraud

1. Nkosk N D Ntwanambi (ANC) ubuza uMphathiswa weMicimbi Yezekhaya:

   Kumaxa lindawoni isebe lakhe (a) ekuncedeni amakhosikazi azibona sele etshatile ngaphandle kwemvume yawo kunye (b) ekulweni ubuqhophololo obenzeka ngokuvulwa kwamatyala ngezazisi ezibiweyo ingakumbi ngabasebenzi besebe lakhe? CO2000X (Translation of isXhosa question follows.)

2. [Ms N D Ntwanambi (ANC) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

   What progress has been made by her department to (a) help women who have been registered as married without their permission and (b) eliminate fraud emanating from accounts opened by using stolen identity documents, especially by employees of her department? CO2000E]

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chair, the answer to the question is that we launched a Marriage Status Verification Campaign in August 2004, and we have put the following mechanisms in place to assist women to verify their marital status as it reflects on the computerised National Population Register. A special link has been introduced on the website of the department which women can utilise to verify their marital status online against the National Population Register.

Secondly, we also encouraged women to visit any office of the Department of Home Affairs to verify their marital status. We have established the number 32551 which is a track-and-trace number. We are hoping that we will be able to upgrade the system such that it can also assist women to verify their status through an SMS. However, in cases where women have been registered as married without their permission or their marriage is suspected to be fraudulent, such marriages are investigated by the department through the Chief Directorate: Counter Corruption and Security. The investigations are done to identify officials of the department as well as any syndicates who operate with officials.

The response to the second part of the question is: Yes, the department has entered into a memorandum of understanding with the SA Banking Risk Information Centres, or Sabric, on 12 March 2007. The purpose of this partnership is to combat identity fraud committed on banks by unscrupulous individuals as well as officials from the department. The Chief Directorate: Counter Corruption and Security in the department has established a nodal point for this purpose and officials stationed in this component assist with the verification of identity numbers and marital status as and when banks make such requests.

They also assist with the co-ordination of information from the banks to Sabric and in the event that any identity document is found to be suspicious or a marriage is suspected to be fraudulent, the matter will be referred to the relevant investigators in the department to undergo thorough investigation and action. Our current turnaround project workstream on ID processes is already investigating the possibility of introducing biometric verification to which banks and other retailers will have access. Thank you. Ms H LAMOELA: Mr Chair, the Minister has given us an SMS number to verify marital status. Could you please repeat the number? Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): The Minister will repeat that. I think it’s more technical; and it is for the benefit of the whole House. Hon Thetjeng, let me take a substantive question.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon member, this is a track-and-trace number and what we want to do is upgrade it. For instance, you can send your ID number now from the House. Just send your ID number to that number, it will come back responding to you by saying, “Yes” if you currently have an application for an ID. If it is not there, it will say “No”. But if it says yes, it will also give you details about where or how far that process is. Of course, that applies to people who applied after 7 February 2007.

Now what we want to do is to use the same facility and upgrade the facility which we have just established to ensure that you are able to verify your marital status from the same number. Now you want the number, I am sorry. Oh! I am sorry. The number is 32551. That is a track-and-trace number SMS. Thank you.

Vho O M THETJENG: Mudzulatshidulo, ndi khou livhuwa phindulo ye ya fhiwa nga Muhulisei hafha Minisita wa zwa Mahayani. Ndo vha ndi tshi khou humbela u vhudzisa uri naa arali muthu o maliwa nga ndila I songo teaho a tshi khou toda u divha zwauri naa a tshi toda u phumulisa u maliwa honoho, ndi mini zwine zwa ita uri zwi dzhie tshifhinga tshilapfu-lapfu khumbelo iyo ine muthu a khou I toda i sa fheli nga u tavhanya? Ndi ralo ngauri vhanwe vhathu vho maliwa vha sa zwi divhi, fhedzi zwi dzhia tshifhinga tshilapfu nga maanda uri hoyo mulandu u kone u fhedziswa uri muthu a kone u divha zwauri ha ngo maliwa. Nndaa. (Translation of Tshivenda paragraph follows.)

[Mr O M THETJENG: Chairperson, I appreciate the answer given here by the hon Minister of Home Affairs. If a person has been fraudulently married, I would like to ask why it takes so long to nullify the marriage. I say so because there are people who are fraudulently married and it is taking too long to nullify the marriage. I thank you.]

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Have you tried to go to any office to verify your marital status? That’s because you don’t have to apply to verify your marital status. You simply walk into an office, go to a desk, ask, and they will check and they will be able to provide you with the information. Have you tried? Have you applied and how long did it take? You haven’t tested it or tried it. Please go to any office. Go and verify your marital status, and see if you won’t get a response timeously. [Interjections.]

No, you are not listening. You are talking. I don’t think you will be able to ask a follow-up question on what I have just been responding to. You are not listening. You are talking to somebody else and I am responding to you.

Vho O M THETJENG: Muhulisei, ndo vha ndi tshi khou ri a vha khou fhindula mbudziso ye nda i vhudzisa. Mbudziso ine nda khou i vhudzisa ndi ya uri ndi mini tshine tsha khou ita uri vhathu vhane vha wana uri vho malisiwa vha songo tea u malisiwa uri hezwo zwithu zwi phumulwe, zwi tshi dzhia tshifhinga tshilapfu-lapfu? Zwino ndi khou vhudzisa uri ndi nga mini zwi tshi khou dzhia tshifhinga tshilapfu-lapfu uri muthu a kone u phumulisa zwe zwa itiwa a sa zwi divhi, zwa u malisiwa? (Translation of Tshivenda paragraph follows.)

[Mr O M THETJENG: Hon Minister, you are not responding to my question. My question is why it takes so long to nullify a fraudulent marriage. I say so because there are people who have been fraudulently married and it is taking too long to nullify the marriage.]

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: To nullify the marriage: how long does it take? That’s the first question I would like to respond to. But, secondly, it is obvious that you don’t expect to be able to walk to a desk and simply say, “Well, verify my status” and people check and they establish that you are married. You would say, “No, I have not been married!” You dispute that and they then nullify immediately. For your information, and I am sure you know about this, there are women who have deliberately gone into these kinds of marriages. Some of them have actually been paid to go into these marriages and will come back and say, “We know that the department has a campaign, which was launched by the Minister, in which I can simply nullify the marriage.”

So, it’s important that when a person comes forward to verify status and actually report that that marriage is fraudulent, you then conduct an investigation before you nullify such a marriage, because also, it would be easy to abuse the system in the same way that people are abusing the facility currently. So, we should not make it easy for people to abuse facilities and services which we are providing to the public. Thanks.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Are there any further follow-up questions? In the absence of any, I will go back to the earlier ruling by the Chairperson to release the hon Minister of Education. Given that she is here, I am not sure whether I can go directly to her to answer Question 96. She will guide us further as to who is going to take the remaining questions. With your permission, hon members, I hand over to the hon Minister to deal with Question 96.

Steps to increase the number of maths and science teachers and to retain these scarce skills resources

1. Mr M A Sulliman (ANC) asked the Minister of Education:

   (1) Whether her department has taken any steps to increase the number of maths and science teachers in high schools by recruiting (a) teachers who have taken voluntary severance packages, (b) young South African teachers living and teaching abroad and (c) foreign English-speaking teachers; if not, why not; if so, how many foreign teachers were recruited in the past two years;

   (2) whether any mechanisms are in place to make sure that South Africa is (a) producing maths and science teachers and (b) retaining these scarce skills resources; if not, why not; if so, what mechanisms in each case? CO2005E

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Chairperson, my colleague the Minister for the Public Service and Administration will answer any further questions on my behalf.

With respect to Question 96, the reply is as follows. We have put in place procedures to employ teachers who have had a break in service, including those who took a voluntary severance package. They are, of course, now eligible for permanent employment. Colleagues will be aware that, initially, they could only be appointed on a temporary basis. We’ve now ensured that they can, in fact, secure a permanent position.

We do advise provincial departments of education to recruit these educators, but then we also say to them that they must recruit young people who are joining the profession so that those who took packages shouldn’t stand as a barrier to new entrants to the profession.

So, in looking at those who want to come back, we would tend to look at the scarce skills subject domains as a first preference – those with mathematics, science and similar qualifications.

In terms of young South Africans living abroad, we are recruiting via the normal recruitment policy. We are not making special endeavours to seek them out. They can apply for any post that is advertised. We don’t keep records, hon members, of how many persons who are South Africans, are teaching abroad. It would be very difficult to maintain such a database.

In terms of our own records through Persal, we had 1 432 foreign teachers employed by provincial education departments in the period 2005 to this year. The recruitment of an additional 2 000 foreign educators is planned by my department, and we are currently working on an implementation plan.

Colleagues would have heard the hon Deputy President refer to our recruitment of scarce skills. A number of our schools do not have qualified mathematics and science teachers. So, in order to fill that gap, we are looking beyond our shores. Of course, we are attempting to identify qualified persons in South Africa who would be ready to fill those positions. Should we not be able to fill them, we then, of course, are going to go on this foreign recruitment campaign.

We are making various endeavours to increase the number of qualified graduates in South Africa. We are investing in student service contract bursaries. Colleagues should be aware of the Fundza Lushaka programme, which is for young persons wishing to enter the teaching profession.

Over the MTEF period an amount of R700 million has been allocated to the National Student Financial Aid Scheme for loans in the form of bursaries for student teachers, with a specific focus on mathematics and science.

We are developing plans to retain these scarce skills because one of the problems has been that, due to poor remuneration and poor service benefits, we’ve tended to lose these very critical skills and therefore are looking at special provisions within the remuneration framework to address persons with scarce skills and those who are willing to teach, especially in our poorest and most rural communities.

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Thank you, hon Minister for the reply. It was very helpful. Hon Minister, what I would like to know is: I know the question of science and mathematics is very close to your heart and all of us are looking at this particular issue. Hon Minister, is there some sort of indication that could tell us when, within the next three, four or five years, we will overcome this burden? I think it’s vitally important for us to have a sense of what the situation is. Thank you very much.

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Thank you, Chairperson. I’m not sure which burden the hon member is referring to, because there are several associated with this.

Firstly, there is the issue of many high schools not having teachers that are qualified and competent in this area. To overcome that, you have to have teacher development programmes; you must offer persons bursaries to upgrade their skills fully. For that, we have a plan that we are implementing so that we have a teacher development framework which we will be implementing from 2008.

Secondly, as I’ve mentioned, there is the issue of remuneration. Persons with these particular qualifications are attractive to a range of sectors and therefore you’ve got to remunerate them in a way that will keep them in the profession.

The third problem area is the performance of young people in mathematics and science in South Africa. We are working on that through the Dinaledi strategy and through, of course, an improved curriculum in mathematics in the country. We are trying to get more and more young people to take up mathematics and to succeed in it.

A fourth problem area would be the matter of how we ensure that, as a nation, we become numerate and scientific. That means that every high school in the country must have a competent, qualified teacher in mathematics. It is our intention that every secondary school – the 6 000 public secondary schools we have – should have such persons within them and should be able to offer children mathematics up to Grade 12 as part of their subject choice offered by teachers able to successfully train our children in these subjects. That, for me, is the first prize: that every school must offer this. The second aspect is that they do this in a competent manner which allows our children to succeed.

I may say that while these five are challenges for the country, they are challenges that are international. Every country in the world is struggling in these subject domains, because these are the most important for knowledge creation and social development.

Mr J B TOLO: Chairperson, if there’s a shortage of mathematics and science teachers in the country, then that shortage is more pronounced, I think, in the rural areas. I want to find out from the hon Minister if there is any retention strategy so that teachers of mathematics and science can actually remain in the rural areas and not go to the bright lights of Johannesburg and these other areas. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Thank you very much. As colleagues would know, my hon colleague the Minister for the Public Service and Administration was involved in a very complex and long process of negotiating a new Public Service wage agreement. Incorporated within it was a provision for an occupation-specific dispensation. That was the creation of remuneration frameworks for professionals working within the Public Service.

Part of what we have inserted, as Education, into the occupation-specific dispensation framework is attention to the recognition of scarce skills. By scarce skills, we have referred both to discipline as well as location – the spatial dimension of rural communities. It is our intention that allowances and so on will be provided to persons who take up posts in areas such as the hon member referred to.

What would be good though, hon member, is if we could develop better ways of collecting data in the country. What one finds is that the very provinces that the member is referring to are unable to give us information as to exactly which schools do not have a mathematics or science teacher and which of their schools do not have a laboratory. We wish members would pay more attention to the constituency areas they’re from, to identify whether the provincial departments are actually assisting in ensuring that these skills exist. It’s vital for South Africa to perform better in these areas.

Mr O M THETJENG: Chairperson, as quite a number of the colleges of education no longer exist, and seeing that training of teachers is a competency of the Education department at national level, I want to check with the Minister whether there is any plan from her department to have these kinds of colleges deliberately opened to train teachers specifically in mathematics and science in order to try to close the gap. At the moment, it seems as if that competency has been given to the universities, and it seems to me that there is not enough output of graduates in those particular areas.

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Chairperson, I think the decline in the number of graduates was not necessarily associated with the closure of the colleges. I also think, when talking of the colleges of education, that we shouldn’t always romanticise them, because they were not delivering the kind of product the country wanted. In most countries, what you want are teachers who are graduates of a university. Therefore, I think the way we talk about the colleges is as though there was no problem with them at the time when the step to close them was taken.

Now, to come to your specific question: One of the things that we have done is through the provision of this bursary, through the Fundza Lushaka programme, we have identified specific subject areas, two of them being mathematics and science. It’s very interesting that, after the first year of this bursary programme, we’ve seen almost a doubling of the numbers taking up teaching. It’s fascinating that, in just one year, you have that kind of massive shift.

This begins to indicate that, in fact, the absence of support, of a bursary, which had been a policy in the past, had actually caused people to go into domains where they would probably get scholarships. You didn’t have scholarships from the private sector for teaching. So, government coming back there has made a very important difference. On the matter of whether we would utilise any space of the colleges that currently remain empty for enrichment or other forms of development programmes, clearly one would have to do so.

Regarding whether we would open a special mathematics and science college, there’s been some discussion in Limpopo about reviving an institution, but it would not be in the form of the college that was there in the past. It certainly would be available for the development of teachers and for the improvement of their ability in mathematics and science.

I really want to discourage the notion that we will revert to the model of teacher colleges of education that we had in the past. We’ve moved away from that. What we need to do is strengthen our faculties of education at the universities and the universities of technology; ensure that we support bursary students appropriately; ensure that we remunerate teachers so that they choose to be in the profession and choose to remain in the profession. That’s the kind of direction that we are working in.

       Performance of municipalities under Project Consolidate

1. Kgoshi M L Mokoena (ANC) asked the Minister for Provincial and Local Government:

   (1) How many municipalities under Project Consolidate are now able to stand on their own;

 (2)    whether there are any plans in place for those municipalities
       that still need monitoring to follow suit; if not, why not; if
       so, what plans?              CO2002E

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, the answer to the question coming from the hon Kgoshi Mokoena is as follows: Project Consolidate was aimed at deepening the thrust and impact of existing national, provincial and local government policies and programmes through the provision of hands-on support to a targeted set of municipalities. Support was, through this programme, provided to 139 municipalities over a two-year timespan.

The provision of hands-on support is now being extended to all municipalities. The key achievements of this programme may be summarised as follows: the augmenting of technical, financial planning, project management and other specialised skills has been beneficial in the short term.

Service delivery has been accelerated through the unblocking of slow-moving projects. Support has been provided for the development of local economic development strategies. Financial systems have been established, audit queries addressed and, in a number of municipalities, revenue income has been substantially improved and key stakeholders are now involved in supporting local government in a better organised manner, eg the Development Bank of Southern Africa, the Institute of Municipal Finance Officers, the Old Mutual group and many others.

The provision of support to municipalities has very little to do with municipalities which, as the hon member states, are not able to stand on their own. It has everything to do with the constitutional injunction in section 154(1) which provides that, and I quote:

The national government and the provincial governments, by legislative and other measures, must support and strengthen the capacity of municipalities to manage their own affairs, to exercise their powers and to perform their functions.

The overall objective of Project Consolidate was to mobilise the whole of government and key stakeholders from outside government to provide tangible support to these municipalities covering a range of specific key performance areas with the aims of resolving very specific programmes and assisting in the building of internal municipality capacity.

The performance of all Project Consolidate municipalities has improved. The Minister addressed the impact of Project Consolidate in the National Assembly and in the NCOP during the budget debate on 6 June 2007 and 20 June 2007 respectively.

Project Consolidate was a pilot programme whose primary objective was to test certain approaches towards the vision of hands-on support to municipalities. In January 2006, based on emerging lessons from Project Consolidate, the extended coverage Lekgotla adopted a five-year local government strategic agenda whose primary purposes were to mainstream hands- on support to local government, and to address the strategic governance of the state in order to better refine, strengthen and give greater attention to matters related to policy regulations and the physical environment for local government.

Lastly, one of the direct consequences of the local government strategic agenda is that the provision of hands-on support by government has now been extended to all 283 municipalities. This strategic agenda sets clear activities, roles and responsibilities, and timeframes in respect of key municipal performance areas.

The performance of all municipalities will be closely monitored at the provincial, local and national levels. Reports on progress will be provided to Parliament on an ongoing basis. I thank you.

  Measures to monitor retraining of staff by government departments

1. Kgoshi M L Mokoena (ANC) asked the Minister for the Public Service and Administration:

   Whether her department has put any measures in place to monitor whether government departments are retraining their staff; if not, why not; if so, (a) how is that process assisting in fast-tracking service delivery, (b) how many staff members were found not to be trainable and (c) what will happen to them? CO2003E

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson and members of the House, in reply to this particular question we need to indicate whether there are any measures in place to monitor whether government departments are retraining their staff.

Now I do want to say that at this point in time we are finalising the human resource development strategic vision for 2015, and it’s largely based on the outcomes of an extensive consultative and review process which looks at the efficacy, achievement, resources and capacity constraints on human resource development, based on our previous strategy of 2000 to 2006.

In this current strategy we are working on we very clearly state that departments will be required to develop annual human resource development implementation plans that have agreed performance indicators and that will report on the performance targets on a quarterly basis. So there will be an annual performance report which will be an aggregation of all the quarterly performance reports.

So, in summary, the departments will, through their annual human resource development implementation plans, of course need to ensure that there is retraining of staff in line with each department’s strategic objective. So that’s where we’re going to place it, and we are placing it there.

Nothing, however, stops the Public Service Commission from investigating this particular area at any given point in time, because, as you are aware, as part of their oversight function, they can investigate, monitor and evaluate any aspect that relates to either human resource development or even service delivery or any other practice or system in government.

Does this process assist in fast-tracking service delivery? Of course, we will expect that training and development will have a positive impact on the development of human capital in the Public Service and, in turn, improve service delivery capacity, but as you would have heard, listening to the various inputs from different Ministers this afternoon, including the most recent response by the Deputy Minister for Provincial and Local Government, there are particular interventions in departments and sectors to improve service delivery - as I stated earlier - of which human capital development is but one component.

We see this as part of a range of interventions to look at how we can improve and fast-track service delivery, but generally there are targeted programmes to take it forward.

Finally, you’ve put me in a little bit of a difficult situation, through you, Chairperson, by asking how many staff members are found to be untrainable. You know, generally, you don’t want to say that any person or public servant is untrainable. We’d rather say there are challenges around particular areas of specialisation, so I’m unable to answer that question honestly. Thank you.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, let me thank the ever-ready Minister for the manner in which she responded to my question. Regarding the very last part of the question, let me change it by asking what we’re going to do with those who have reached their ceiling. Thanks, Chair.

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, that is a new question, of course. Let me state upfront, regarding those who have reached their ceiling, whether we want to call them deadwood or as Kgoshi originally said, untrainable, we generally find a way of easing them out of the Public Service.

At this particular point in time, what we have is an employee-initiated severance package, which is a package in terms of which a public servant can apply to leave the Public Service. We generally try to facilitate a soft landing and will look at training in areas other than those in which they are competent.

One such example I can use is the SA National Defence Force, where there are people who are more senior in age and are serving at a lower level and in a more civilian capacity in the National Defence Force. We do not see them playing an active role in the armed forces and we’ve looked at placing them elsewhere with requisite skills where they can play more menial and other roles, but generally we’ll move them out through an employee- initiated severance package. Thank you.

          Measures to deal with allegedly corrupt officials

1. Kgoshi M L Mokoena (ANC) asked the Minister for the Public Service and Administration:

   (1) How is her department dealing with alleged corrupt officials at border gates like Beit Bridge;

   (2) whether security vetting of officials in critical posts will ensure that unwanted elements, are done away with; if not, why not; if so, how is her department dealing with alleged syndicates among some of these officials? CO2004E

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, the hon Kgoshi Mokoena asks how we are dealing with corrupt officials at border gates such as Beit Bridge. The easy way out would have been to ask my colleague the Minister of Home Affairs, together with the Ministers of Finance and other portfolios to answer the question, but let me deal with it more broadly.

As the portfolio of Public Service and Administration, we are responsible for establishing and implementing policies and strategies to fight corruption and improve ethical conduct in the Public Service. The application thereof, of course, takes place within sectors, departments, etc.

Now there is a functioning anticorruption co-ordinating committee that co- ordinates anticorruption work in the Public Service, and the Department of Home Affairs, the SA Police Service and the SA Revenue Service are represented on this committee in this functioning structure. These organs of state are involved in border control activities.

What I think we’re all aware of is that the Department of Home Affairs and the Minister of Home Affairs have actually run an awareness campaign with immigration officers at port control offices. In addition to this campaign, the Chief Directorate: Counter Corruption and Security in the Department of Home Affairs is currently rolling out two corruption-prevention projects.

Now these projects entail the evaluation of corruption risks, the development of an action plan that compels all office managers in the department, including those in port control offices, to take responsibility for curbing corruption.

The directorate is also investigating allegations of corruption which involve officials of that department. And from the reports that the Minister has made public for the period of 1 April 2006 to 31 March 2007, a total of 13 immigration officers that were stationed at 11 port control offices were found guilty of misconduct and were dismissed. These charges apparently included aiding and abetting illegal immigrants, misappropriation of state funds and unlawful issuing of documentation.

There’s also the role of the SA Revenue Service, which is dealing with corruption at border posts, and they have an ethics office that conducts education and awareness programmes and campaigns at the border posts. The SA Revenue Service has also set up a business intelligence unit, and that particular unit is responsible for intelligence-gathering at the ports of entry. They’re also tasked to conduct risk assessments and a range of other things. Then, of course, there is the police, and I won’t go into that.

If there are any follow-up questions, I am so fortunate as to have my colleague the Minister of Home Affairs in the House to pursue them, and I would suggest that the other questions also be put to the other Ministers whom I’ve mentioned in the response as being involved in this. So I was unable to deal with the specifics of that, but could reflect more broadly on the work that’s being done. Thanks very much, Kgoshi Mokoena.

  Particulars regarding identification documents currently awaiting
                             collection

1. Mr M A Sulliman (ANC) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

   (1) (a) What was the total number of identification documents (IDs) as at the latest specified date for which information is available still awaiting collection in each province, (b) why have they not yet been collected and (c) what happens to IDs that are not collected;

   (2) whether her department has put any plans in place to (a) expedite and (b) improve the delivery of IDs; if not, why not; if so, what plans? CO2006E

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chair, the answer is that most of the identity documents – IDs - which are issued by the department, are distributed to SAPO – the South African Post Office.

Therefore, an attempt to provide a figure for those IDs that are in our offices could mislead the House, so I’ve decided that I will not give the exact figure, because I don’t want to be accused later on of misleading the House.

To answer part (b) of the first question: There are a number of reasons for identity documents not being collected by applicants, of which the following are the main reasons: one, applicants move or change their residential and postal addresses without informing the department accordingly and applicants then end up being untraceable; two, applicants provide incorrect or incomplete residential and postal addresses, which then affects the delivery of their IDs; three, we do inform applicants via SMS messages that their identity documents are ready for collection, but some simply fail to collect the documents.

Identity documents which are not collected within a period of 12 months are returned to the Department of Home Affairs head office in Pretoria for filing.

With regard to question 2(a): the department has instituted the following to expedite the delivery of identity documents to their rightful owners: Firstly, by utilising the services of the SAPO, which collects identity documents from the offices of application, to deliver the documents to the rightful owners at the residential and postal addresses as indicated on their application forms; secondly, through door-to-door deliveries by officials from the office of application; thirdly, by utilising our mobile units to deliver identity documents in rural areas, mainly areas which are not serviced by the SAPO; fourthly, assistance from traditional leaders and social service workers – community development workers – does help to inform applicants when their IDs are ready for collection.

The answer to part (b) of the question is that the department has since introduced a track-and-trace system which allows members of the public to enquire about the status of their applications and to inform them about their IDs, when they are ready for collection, or even at what stage in the process each application is, up until the end of the process. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Thank you, hon Minister, for the reply. I appreciate that. Arising out of the hon Minister’s reply, the thing that worries me a bit is the process after the untraceable IDs are returned to your department after 12 months. The question is: Are they kept there for years and years and years, or do you have a cutoff point at which you have to destroy the IDs? I think that is quite crucial. Thank you, hon Minister.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, hon Sulliman. Yes, they are returned to head office and the tradition has been really - the practice has been - to keep them but at some point to destroy them. Obviously, with the current turnaround process, which looks at this specific area of ID fraud, one of the weaknesses would be keeping them for too long, because then anybody could lay their hands on those IDs. I’m hoping that the work team dealing with ID processing will then make recommendations about the best ways of dealing with this particular challenge, which would obviously include destroying those IDs without keeping them for long periods of time.

Mr B J TOLO: Chair, could the hon Minister tell us whether the systems in the department are actually talking to each other or one another. I am asking this question, because more often than not when a person applies for an ID for instance in place A and that person leaves A and goes to place B, the person is still able to apply for an ID there and the system is still able to take the application there. They are not able to pick up that that person has applied for an ID in place A some two months ago or one month ago and therefore he cannot process a new ID altogether, because he has not collected the other one yet. What is the situation in relation to that?

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Yes, this is a challenge in relation to our Information Technology - IT - systems generally in the department, but not as they affect the systems that don’t talk to each other. I do want to indicate to hon members that one of the reasons why we have launched a track-and-trace system is precisely to curb corruption. If the application now, for instance, is captured on track-and-trace, right, and later on the ID is collected and again a person applies, the information will be captured right at the frontline offices. It will be reflected that the person already has an ID.

What is currently happening is that you would apply and the frontline offices would not be able to pick up that in fact this person has already applied. People who will be able to pick up that information are people who are working with IDs at headquarters. With track-and-trace it will be possible for officials at the frontline desks to actually pose certain questions when you come forward to reapply for an ID when you had already secured one.

Systems, yes, but obviously in order for us to achieve some of what we are setting ourselves to achieve, we have to improve our IT systems; ensure that they talk to each other - sort of – back-to-back and ensure that obviously we are able to pick up any loopholes which are making our officials vulnerable to acts of corruption. Thanks.

Particulars regarding the detention of illegal immigrants at Lindela
                          Detention Centre

1. Mr M A Sulliman (ANC) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

   (a) How many illegal immigrants were at the Lindela Detention Centre as at 31 July 2007, (b) how much is the total cost of detaining illegal immigrants at (i) the Lindela Detention Centre and (ii) overall and (c) what is the current turnaround time for repatriation of illegal immigrants? CO2007E

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, as at 31 July 2007, we had 1 557 illegal immigrants at the Lindela Detention Centre. The cost to maintain each person is R77,96 per day, per illegal foreigner who is detained at this facility. Secondly, the cost of both accommodation and repatriation per month is R7 894 120. That is the cost of accommodation, maintenance and deportation of illegal immigrants per month. This is not per year, but per month.

Regarding the current turnaround time, which is part (c) of the question, the time periods for repatriation are between 14 and 30 days. Beyond 30 days, we have to secure special permission from the courts for continued detention of an illegal immigrant. Thanks.

Ms J M MASILO: Thank you very much, hon Minister, for the response. I want to ask a follow-up question on the Marabastad office, which I pass twice a week. There are lots of people staying there. Is there any arrangement to cater for them, maybe a special centre, and what are the recent developments in terms of their processes? I thank you.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you, Ms Masilo. The Marabastad office is a refugee reception office. It is not a repatriation centre for illegal migrants, but, obviously, we do have a number of illegal immigrants lingering around Marabastad, hoping to push their luck and secure a section 22 permit, which is given to asylum seekers.

If members would like to raise questions about refugee reception offices, I will be able to come back and provide that answer, but I do always stress the difference between the Lindela Repatriation Centre as a centre for illegal immigrants and Marabastad, Rosettenville or any other offices like the office in Cape Town as offices for the reception of refugees and asylum seekers. Thanks.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, thanks to the Minister for the comprehensive response. Arising from the Minister’s response, based on the amount we are spending as government in taking these people back to their respective countries or to the border gates they came from, can’t we minimise some of this expenditure? We can arrange that we don’t take people, let’s say, for example, those who are arrested at the border next to Beit Bridge; that we transfer them to the North West, far away from Beit Bridge.

We are spending a lot of money by taking them from there to Lindela only for them to be taken back again to Beit Bridge to go to their respective countries. As the Minister has already said, we are spending a lot of money for taking these people up and down, and some of them are doing this deliberately because they want to. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you, Kgoshi Mokoena. You are very correct. Obviously, there is a need for government to find ways of minimising the expenditure. However, I do want to caution that not all the illegal immigrants who are arrested do pass through Lindela. I mean, if you are caught in the Free State, Mpumalanga or even in the Eastern Cape, you do not necessarily go through the Lindela Repatriation Centre. In the main, the people you’ll find at the Lindela Repatriation Centre are those who have been arrested in the areas of Gauteng. Most of the people who are caught in other provinces are deported directly from those provinces to the areas they came from.

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: I would just like to ask the Minister about the monthly amount it costs to keep these illegal immigrants. Does this include the medical treatment and services that they might need as well?

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Yes, hon member, this is inclusive of medical attention and everything else they need, which is provided to them whilst they are at the centre.

Progress regarding departmental strategic plan to improve the Batho Pele campaign

1. Mr M A Sulliman (ANC) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

   What progress has been made regarding her department’s strategic plan (2005-06 to 2009-10) to improve the Batho Pele campaign by introducing measures to ensure compliance through unannounced site visits, name badges and enhanced internal communication? CO2008E The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, the answer to the hon Sulliman’s question is that the strategic plan of the department is being implemented as part of the overall turnaround of the department. A new business model and a vision process are being designed and will be ready by November. The strategic plan will, out of necessity, need to be reviewed in line with the new model and the new design of the department.

The second part of the question deals with site visits and unannounced visits. Yes, these visits are regularly conducted across all nine provinces at various offices of the department. Regular spot checks are also being done. These visits and spot checks will continue on a regular basis to ensure compliance with service delivery standards as well as to monitor customer satisfaction.

In addition to unannounced site visits, the Ministry and senior managers from the department’s head office visited all nine provinces during the public outreach programmes with a view to observing and addressing service delivery challenges.

In general, each visit consisted of frontline work being done at different service delivery points to experience service delivery demands and challenges first-hand, to discuss challenges facing the specific province, to interact with the media and, in some cases, with other stakeholders such as councillors, relevant government departments and communities. I must also mention that the Department of the Public Service and Administration itself does have particular days a week dedicated to unannounced site visits conducted by all members of Cabinet to different service points of government.

On name tags, the launch of name tags for all staff members of the Department of Home Affairs already took place in 2005. It’s not that there were no name tags, but these name tags are now a different type of name tag in that they bear the photograph of the staff member. The wearing of these name tags is compulsory and staff members can be disciplined if they do not comply with the wearing of their name tags.

Prior to this there were name tags, but they simply had the name of the staff member and the department. One would find that in some instances a member of the public would come forward and lay a complaint only to find that, in fact, the name tag which was worn by the official concerned was not his or her name tag. The best way of averting that kind of challenge was then to introduce name tags which bear the photograph of the person.

We always want to make sure -and appeal to members of the public to ensure

• that the staff member who is serving the client is a staff member who is wearing a name tag and whose photograph resembles the face of the person who is serving him or her. This is one way of minimising the risks of corruption and fraud which are currently taking place. Thank you. Mr M A SULLIMAN: Minister, I do not have a follow-up question but I’d just to say thank you very much for the answer. We will know now as a legislature what to do when we visit some of these offices, because we have discovered that many officials do not wear the name tags but we know now what to do with them.

                WRITTEN REPLY TO QUESTION ON HOUSING
  

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): In the absence of a further follow- up question, I will move to Question 101. Before that, I want to bring to the attention of this august House and to the hon N J Mack in particular, that as per request of the Minister of Housing - whose request has convinced my own sense of judgment – that the question you have asked does not belong to the Department of Housing. It belongs to the Department of Agriculture and/or the Department of Land Affairs. The enforcement aspect of that question - because Land Affairs came with this legislative regime - is the work of the police. Land Affairs cannot go and check whether farmers are violating the law. So, it is multifaceted.

However, the Minister has requested that she be excused and she has provided a written reply on aspects of the question that may assist you in terms of locating the specific role of her department in relation to the matters contained in the question. I hope that will be okay with you, hon Mack. Okay, do you want to raise something?

Mr N J MACK: Chairperson, there is a certain aspect: Definitely there should be mechanisms in place to assist municipalities with the necessary funding or any other means. Because our people are going to municipalities for housing and this is an unfunded mandate.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Hon member, could you sit down. You are out of order! I said there is a comprehensive response written by the hon Minister dealing with aspects that relate to the constitutional functions of the Department of Housing with regard to the question you have asked. It is written down. The Minister is not here, and it will be handed to you by the staff here. Thank you.

    Impact of, and participation in Healthy Lifestyles Programme

1. Ms N F Mazibuko (ANC) asked the Minister of Health:

   (1) (a) What impact has the Healthy Lifestyles Programme had since its inception and (b) how many provinces have launched this programme officially;

   (2) whether communities are participating in this programme; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? CO2015E The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Thank you very much, Chairperson. First of all, let me apologise for coming late. I had a meeting with the Deputy President and I regret the fact that I missed answering Question 87.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): We will come back to it.

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: I don’t know how the House dealt with it, but I do have an answer, which I can deposit with the staff to forward to the hon Mr Mzizi. With regard to the question that was asked by the hon Mazibuko …

… ngicela ukubonga kakhulu lo mbuzo obalulekile owubuzileyo bese ngisho ukuthi … [… I would like to thank you for the important question you have asked and I would also like to say that …]

… since its inception in 2004, the national Healthy Lifestyles Programme has received tremendous political support and strategic leadership from all Members of Cabinet, myself included. At the departmental level, a national task team was established in the same year, that is August 2004, and it currently involves a number of activities to strengthen the Healthy Lifestyles Programme, including the development of a healthy lifestyles strategy to support the healthy lifestyle’s campaign and activities.

The recent development includes the integration of the Healthy Lifestyles Programme into other government programmes. These include the social cluster comprehensive task team activities, the National Youth Service, the Department of Transport – I am referring to road safety campaigns here - the Department of Social Development, the prevention of drug abuse, Golden Games for the elderly, youth development programmes, the Department of Education, health-promoting school initiatives, school health services, life-skills education, the safety in schools programme, the Department of Safety and Security, tobacco control legislation, Sport and Recreation SA, and physical activity programmes.

The Healthy Lifestyles Programme comprises five components, which are the promotion of nutrition, the promotion of physical activities “ukunyakazisa umzimba” the promotion of tobacco control, the promotion of safe sexual behaviour, and the promotion of prevention of abuse of alcohol and other substances.

Specific interventions in this regard include the integration of the Healthy Lifestyles Programme in community-based monthly mass education campaigns, the implementation of tobacco control laws to protect people from passive smoking or second-hand smoking, discouraging the youth from taking up smoking and encouraging smokers to quit smoking.

We have also had relationships with fast-food outlets to promote healthy eating practices, notably Nando’s. We also have mass mobilisation of other stakeholders to participate in the promotion of healthy lifestyles. We also conducted health-screening services for body mass index, blood pressure, blood glucose, cholesterol, pap smears, prostate and breast cancer.

The launch of the Move for Health campaign by myself in 2005 was to improve the level of physical activity, and I am sure colleagues have seen me trying to walk it through. I am hoping that all of us can do that.

The promotion of healthy lifestyles takes place through the media, television, computers, the Internet, media advertising and the print media, the establishment of health education programmes, the SABC, radio and 60 community radio stations, the establishment of community and school projects enhancing healthy lifestyles, and the design, development and distribution of promotional material like posters, leaflets, booklets, video cassettes.

All provinces have launched this programme, and let me just announce that we have also, as the Department of Health, now agreed that next year we will mark a dedication to healthy lifestyles with the same magnitude with which we marked World Aids Day. I am hoping that members of the House will also participate in this activity, because we would like to see the whole of South Africa engaged in this healthy lifestyles movement.

Since the launch of the Healthy Lifestyles Programme in all provinces, implementation is taking place now in districts and local service areas with a multisectoral approach. The following information gives details of some of the activities taking place at district and local district level: social mobilisation of community structures like the NGOs and the CBOs to promote healthy lifestyles; partnerships with traditional health practitioners; partnerships with LoveLife and other NGOs that I have mentioned; partnerships with schools and churches; partnerships with local communities; and partnerships with women’s organisations, notably Sawid.

There is also the establishment of community-based physical activities. In this regard, we refer to the formation of exercise groups for the elderly at clinic level and in collaboration with the Department of Social Development. Let me just boast a little bit in that Limpopo has a women’s soccer team contributing to physical activity.

There is also the training of community champions in establishing physical activity programmes: Sports for Children with sports clothes and sportsgear; soul Champions for exercise with Soul City; Little Champs with the Heart and Stroke Foundation SA; soccer for the elderly with Discovery Health; and various monthly 3-kilometre to 8-kilometre health walks, as we have seen and may try to do. I am inviting members in the House to organise these walks in your localities and in your neighbourhood because they are very helpful.

There has also been the establishment of community and school-based food gardens, and I am proud to say that everywhere I travel I can see the mushrooming of food-garden training facilitated by the Food Gardens Foundation, the donation of garden implements by the Department of Health in collaboration with the Department of Agriculture, nutrition education provided by the national Integrated Nutrition Programme …

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Hon Minister, may I bring to your attention an earlier precedent in which I made a ruling that where hon Ministers have questions that go beyond their allocated time for reply, they may ask to give that written reply to the member in question. This is in light of trying to manage time.

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Thank you very much, Chairperson. It’s just that this is a subject very close to my heart. I thought that, you wouldn’t notice that by accident. Thank you very much. I will submit the answer.

Nk N F MAZIBUKO: Ngiyabonga, Ngqongqoshe, ngempendulo yakho futhi ngiyazi ukuthi uhlelo oluthanda kakhulu lolu. Bengithanda ukwazi, Ngqongqoshe, ukuthi kuzo lezi zinhlelo ozibalile kanye nokudla okunomsoco okufanele abantu bakudle, ingabe abondlekile njengami, sekube nomehluko na kubo? Ngiyabonga. [Uhleko.]

UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEMPILO: Umehluko ungawubona nakimi. Akufanele size size nakuwena, uyazibonela nje nawe ukuthi kunoshintsho uma ngabe unyakazisa umzimba, kodwa akusikhona ukunyakazisa umzimba kuphela. Ziningi ezinye izinto esizenzayo esicabanga ukuthi zibalulekile ezisiza izimpilo zabantu, njengokubahlolela umdlavuza, njengokuzama ukuthi sibone izinga le-BP nokuthi ushukela egazini labo ungakanani ukuze sikwazi ukubasiza. Kodwa okokunyakazisa umzimba uma ufuna ukubona umphumela bheka kimi dadewethu. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Ms N F MAZIBUKO: Thank you, Minister for your answer. I know that this is a programme which is very close to your heart. I would like to know whether the programmes you have mentioned, as well as the nutritious food which must be eaten by people, have also benefited overweight people like myself. Thank you. [Laughter.]

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: You can even see the difference in me. We don’t even have to come to you, because you can just tell us that there is a change when you exercise your body. It is not only exercising, because there are many things that we are doing that we think are important and improve people’s lives, like screening them for cancer and checking their BP and cholesterol levels, so that we are able to help them. However, as far as exercising is concerned, just look at me, my sister, if you want to see the results.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Hon members, I must bring to your attention that a ruling by the House, unless it is revoked, remains a ruling. I did not want to confuse the hon Minister. The ruling by the Chairperson was that the Minister requested that we deal with her questions towards the end. But because she is here I cannot keep her, even if she is here, until the end. This does not take away her obligation to answer the question that we skipped when she was not here. We will deal with that question as we proceed. I want to check whether there is any other follow- up question.

Particulars regarding mothers and children who have benefited from the prevention of mother-to-child transmission of HIV programme

1. Ms N F Mazibuko(ANC) asked the Minister of Health:

   (1) (a) How many mothers and children have benefited from the prevention of mother-to-child transmission of HIV/PMTCT programme and (b) how many children to date are alive through this intervention;

   (2) whether there is any monitoring system in place to track those children who were born under this programme? CO2016E

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Once again, thank you very much. I will try and move very quickly through this question, in the interests of time. The answer to part 1(a) is that a cumulative figure, hon member, is not available. The answer to 1(b) is that it is not known as there are no systems in place to capture such information.

The answer to part 2 of the question is that the introduction of PCR testing at six weeks, when coming for first immunisation, and the use of national coding systems are in place to track only those that come at six weeks for testing in our facilities.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Sorry, Minister, I take it you were answering Question 102.

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Yes.

Mr A WATSON: Hon Chair, it’s a pity that the answer given by the Minister says that there are no records available, because I would similarly like to know if indeed records are available regarding mothers who were actually disadvantaged by the irresponsible advocating of controversial remedies like beetroot and garlic; and indeed how many children died as a result of that. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Hon Minister, I am not sure whether you want to respond to that, because I took it as more of a statement or comment. But I don’t know. Hon Minister? The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I am rising on a point of order: The Minister clearly said that there were no records. So, any sensible and sane person cannot still continue and want to ask about records, regarding which it has been clearly said in this House that there aren’t any.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S SETONA): Could you take your seat, hon Chief Whip. Hon members, I just want to check and I think I have made a clear comment, that I read that as a comment or statement. I want to check first whether the Minister wants to reply - I don’t want to be presumptuous. Some Ministers are eager to respond even to those comments; if not, then I will make the necessary ruling. Hon Minister?

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Thank you very much, Chairperson. I think, during the tabling of the budget in this House, we also referred to the fact that we are developing systems. But, if the hon member is really interested in understanding the value of garlic, beetroot, lemon, olive oil, amadumbe and so on, he is invited to my office. I will go through a whole lecture. But if he so wishes, he can also go to the website. This information is available. I am not dreaming it up. It is true and I have said it over and over again. If the hon member thinks he is going to discourage me from saying these things: hard luck.

Mr A WATSON: Chairperson, on a point of order: The point of order that you took from the hon Chief Whip, in which he implied that I am not intelligent … The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Who took the point of order?

Mr A WATSON: You allowed him to speak and it’s on record that he said “intelligent people”, inferring that I am not intelligent. [Interjections.] Well, that’s a second disgraceful remark. It’s typical of the ANC.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Hon Watson, could you take your seat because I want to make a statement. Hon member, the Chief Whip may have made that statement and, as far as I am concerned, he never made any reference to any speaker. He made a general statement that an intelligent person would not have asked this question. Therefore I don’t take your point of order. Could I take your further follow-up question?

Mr A WATSON: A follow-up on the point of order, please, Chair …

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): There is no follow-up on the point of order …

Mr A WATSON: The point is that the Chief Whip referred specifically to my question and said that I shouldn’t have asked it because any intelligent person should have known …

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): No, you are out of order …

Mr A WATSON: I am not out of order, I am within my rights …

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Take your seat, hon member. Hon member, take your seat …

Mr A WATSON: I want you to rule on what the Chief Whip said.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): You are not going to impose a ruling on me. [Interjections.] No, I am not going to do that. Hon member, maybe you need attention. I am not sure whether that is the proper way of seeking attention. [Interjections.] I will handle it; I will give you attention appropriately, but not on your own terms. Maybe you have invited television cameras here. I won’t do it on your terms, hon member. I am warning you. Could I take further follow-up questions?

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, on a point of order: I would like to request that we get a Hansard copy of what actually transpired. I would also request you to look at it and see what happened, and I would appeal to you then to make a ruling. If you heard something different to what the hon Watson heard, then there is a discrepancy and it should be checked against Hansard, please.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): That is procedural, hon member. We don’t have to be taught about that. It is procedural just to test whether what I have said … I am saying the Chief Whip said any intelligent person can … [Interjections.] Yes, we will refer to Hansard, hon member. But that does not take away my ruling, unless I am convinced otherwise by the records. Can we take further follow-up questions?

 Particulars regarding facilities providing termination of pregnancy
                              services

1. Ms N F Mazibuko (ANC) asked the Minister of Health:

   (a) How many public and private facilities providing termination of pregnancy services in terms of the Choice on Termination of Pregnancy Act, Act 92 of 1996, have been established and registered to date and (b) what monitoring systems have been put in place to curb the mushrooming of fly-by-night clinics? CO2017E

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: The reply to the question is as follows: There are 245 registered public facilities and 160 private facilities. The total number of registered facilities therefore is 405. There are no monitoring systems in place. However, community members - and I dare say members of this House - are encouraged to report any suspicion of an unauthorised provider at local, district or provincial level. In other words, this is a self-regulatory approach. Thank you.

Nk N F MAZIBUKO: Siyabonga Ngqongqoshe, manje uma ngabe ngibathola labo abangenalo igunya lomthetho ukwenza umsebenzi ngenze njani njengeLungu lePhalamende? Ingabe kukhona lapho ngingashayela khona ukuze ngazise uMnyango ukuthi naba behushula izisu ngaphandle kwemvume na? Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Ms N F MAZIBUKO: Thank you, Minister. If I were to find someone not authorised to do the job, what should I as a Member of Parliament do? Is there a number which I can dial to inform the department that there is an illegal termination of pregnancy service? Thank you.]

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Thank you very much, Chairperson.

Sinalo uhlelo okudala silumemezela ukuthi labo abangagculisekanga ngendlela abaphathwa ngayo nabenza okuphambene nomthetho ukuthi bangaxhumana kanjani nathi. Sinalo uhlelo esibheka ngalo izikhalazo. Ungaya emtholampilo oseduzane noma ubhalele uNgqongqoshe wesifundazwe noma mina ngqo ukuze sikwazi ukubhekisisa kahle ukuthi kwenzekani okuphambene nomthetho. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[We do have a programme, which we have long been announcing, for those who are not satisfied with the way they are treated and about those who transgress the law, as to how they can communicate with us. We do have a programme of dealing with complaints. You can go to the local clinic or write to the MEC for the province or to myself, so that we are able to check thoroughly as to what it is that is taking place which is against the law. Thank you.]

Ms J M MASILO: Modulasetilo, ke lebogela le dikarabo tsa Tona e e tlotlegang. Ke batla go botsa gore … [Chairperson, I want to thank the Minister for her reply. My question is …]

… how does the department control the women who seek a termination of pregnancy more than twice? We have experienced that in the Northern Cape, where women go for a termination of pregnancy three or four times. Do you have any mechanism in the department to limit the number of times women can seek terminations of pregnancy, even though I know that it is their right to do that? Thank you, Minister.

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Just to set the record straight, I do not think it is the responsibility of the department to limit people’s choices because indeed this is the Choice on Termination of Pregnancy Act. However, there are certain things that we can do as a department - providing the family planning facilities and whatever is available and counselling. In this regard, as I’ve said, we would also rely on the members of the family. There is information all over the place. Obviously, before a pregnancy is terminated there is always counselling, but I don’t think we can stop people’s choices, we can only advise and counsel.

Legislation for the improvement of people’s lives; and results concerning health derived from the Ten Point Plan

1. Ms N F Mazibuko (ANC) asked the Minister of Health:

   (a) How many pieces of legislation have been implemented to improve the lives of the people and (b) what results and new experiences concerning health have been derived from the Ten Point Plan? CO2018E

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, in line with your ruling as I answered the first question, the answer is pretty long, and obviously, some of the issues that are being asked are addressed annually in the department’s annual reports. May I, therefore, table the response? Thank you.

Ms N F MAZIBUKO: Sihlalo ngiyabonga, nakuba sengizophuthelwa ithuba lokuthi ngibuze futhi omunye umbuzo kodwa ngizokwemulela impendulo ebhaliwe. [Chairperson, thank you. Even though I will now miss out on an opportunity to ask a follow-up question, I will nevertheless accept a written reply.]

Particulars regarding the development of an Information and Communication Technology system to be used in the administration of patients’ records

1. Mr O M Thetjeng (DA) asked the Minister of Health:

   (1) With regard to the plan of the Limpopo Department of Health to develop an Information and Communication Technology (ICT) system to be used in the administration of patients’ records, (a) which company was awarded the first phase of the tender, (b) for how much was the tender awarded, (c) at what stage did the project fail and (d) how much has been spent by her department to revive this project;

   (2) whether any steps will be or have been taken against the company for failing to deliver the service as set out in the tender specifications; if not, why not; if so, what steps? CO2029E

UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEMPILO: Sihlalo, mangikusho ukuthi empeleni, ngokwami ukubona, mhlawumbe lo mbuzo ubungaphenduleka kahle khona le eLimpopo, kodwa- ke ngizozama ngoba nakhu sengibuziwe. Imibuzo enje, ngokwami ukubona, kuba ngcono uma iphendulwa yisifundazwe uqobo lwaso. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, let me say that, as far as I am concerned, this question could have been answered appropriately by the Limpopo province. Nevertheless, I shall try to answer it, now that it has been asked. As far as I am concerned, it is better to have such questions answered by the province concerned.]

The answer to 1(a) is: The International Business Machines Corporation was awarded a contract to implement a hospital information system, which included the administration of patients’ records in 40 hospitals. In answer to 1(b), the contract was worth R110 million, and 1(c), IBM had implemented the Medicom hospital information system in 17 of the 40 hospitals targeted during their contract period. When the contract expired, they had not implemented such a system in the remaining 23 hospitals.

A new contract has been awarded to LHC Health Solutions. This contract not only covers the patients’ record system but also implements a provincial health information system, and we are working hard to try to complete this as a whole. In terms of this contract, the amount awarded is estimated at R261 million.

The answer to the second part of the question is: There is no need for any steps to be taken against any company other than the termination of their contract. Therefore, when the contract of IBM expired, the department ended the relationship with the said company. LHC Health Solutions is still implementing the system at this stage, and there is no reason to believe that they will fail to deliver the service. Obviously, we must watch their performance as well. Thank you. Mr O M THETJENG: Chairperson, on the basis of the information provided, in 23 of the 40 hospitals IBM has not implemented the programme as it was supposed to in terms of the contractual obligations. Isn’t it a requirement in terms of the Public Finance Management Act that, since they have not performed to the specification that they were supposed to, and if money has been paid in full and they haven’t done their job, the government should get the money back from the company for failing to deliver on the project that they were supposed to have carried out? Thank you, Chairperson.

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: In fact, I omitted to immediately mention that point. I just want to say that, of course, as you know, we have the tender processes. The tenders are awarded by the Treasury and we are in consultation with Treasury, just as we are in consultation with Treasury with regard to the faulty condoms, as to what steps need to be taken. Thank you.

    Particulars regarding the deportation of Zimbabwean refugees

1. Mr O M Thetjeng (DA) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

   (1) How many Zimbabwean refugees does her department deport on a daily basis and (b) how far into Zimbabwe are they dropped;

   (2) whether there are any arrangements between her department and Zimbabwe for receiving the deportees; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (3) whether this deportation is a fruitless expenditure as many of these Zimbabweans simply return to South Africa; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details? CO2030E

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, thank you, hon Thetjeng. [Interjections.] The Department of Home Affairs does not deport refugees as refugees are protected by law. They’ve already been granted refugee status

• political asylum in the country - and therefore you may not deport them. So we are not in the habit of deporting refugees in South Africa. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Thank you very much, hon Minister. I’m not sure whether there will be a follow-up on that question, because substantively there might have been an error, perhaps a typing error which led him to a substantive misapplication of law, because legally you cannot deport a refugee – it’s a fact – and I’m not sure if there has to be any follow-up arising out of that. What would the legal basis of it be? However, I want to test whether members want to continue. A refugee is somebody who has been accepted as such, whether economic or whatever the case may be. I’m not sure, hon members, may I be granted the opportunity to move to Question 107?

HON MEMBERS: Yes.

Proposed establishment of facility to search trains at Beit Bridge border

1. Mr A Watson (DA) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

   Whether her department is planning to establish a facility to search trains leaving and entering South Africa and Zimbabwe at the Beit Bridge border; if not, why not; if so, when? CO2031E

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, thank you, hon Watson. The answer is no, the Department of Home Affairs is not planning to establish a facility to search trains at the Beit Bridge border post as it is not our mandate and therefore not the mandate of immigration officers at ports of entry to search conveyances.

This work falls under the custodianship of the hon Minister of Finance and the SA Revenue Service. They are responsible for customs and excise and the relevant legislation pertaining thereto. Thank you.

Mr A WATSON: Yes, thank you, Chair. Maybe the typists aren’t doing that well, because this question does not necessarily refer to goods which fall under the ambit of finance and customs and excise. The point that this question addresses is that, other than refugees, illegal immigrants are actually stowed away on trains and therefore slip through the Home Affairs and entry-visa checking points. If the trains aren’t searched, then they come into the country and I suppose they then become refugees. The point is about people not about goods.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, hon Watson, we will still not search trains, buses, trucks or any moveable object that transports people, because it is not our responsibility to do that. Our responsibility is to regulate the movement of people. We attend to those people who come in through the border. And I am sure you are aware that even when it comes to those who have been reported as jumping over the fence or crawling under it, it is not the responsibility of immigration officers to patrol a border and therefore we will not do that either.

But there is the instance in which we identify a person as illegal without having to be going all out, sniffing around and looking for people who are illegal migrants in the country. If we did that, quite honestly, it wouldn’t be any different from what used to happen in the country when people would wake up and raid places to look for people who did not have the permits to be in designated areas.

In any event, two or three years ago there was a suggestion that perhaps our inspectorate should develop the capacity to go and raid schools, looking for illegal children and to go to hospitals, and we cannot do that. If we did that, I think it would be a serious setback for democracy in South Africa.

We need to find ways of regulating, managing, assessing and evaluating whether we are managing this. I think it is also important for all of us to understand that there isn’t a time when South Africa will not have illegal or economic migrants. That time will not come.

It doesn’t matter how tightly your borders are patrolled. It doesn’t matter if you do away with porous borders, as it has been reported in the past that we had porous borders. There will never be a time when South Africa will not have economic migrants from other countries, precisely because of our own political and economic stability, which therefore acts as a magnet for those people who live in distressed areas.

If you read about what happens in other countries where you have very stringent measures taken to ensure that illegal migrants do not enter those countries, you will still find that a number of people in those countries are in fact illegal. In spite of the stringent measures and tight security in those countries, they still have illegal immigrants because people will move from areas where there is hunger and starvation. They will move from areas where there is instability and they will look for greener pastures in countries where there is a better life.

I just think it is a reality we have to live with and find ways of managing in the country. What purpose will it serve to believe that people should actually go all out and search trains and raid places and do all sorts of things looking for illegal migrants, except to create a sense of paranoia and instability in our communities?

I think that we need to talk about this as Members of Parliament and discuss this with our own communities and educate our people that South Africa and the South African dream has created miracles and has had this particular effect on peoples of other nations who live in conditions of squalor. They will come to South Africa because there is a better life. In terms of the way we go about this as MPs, I think we do have this responsibility of talking to our people to say, “It doesn’t matter what government does; you will never be able to prevent a hungry person from going out to look for food.” Thank you.

Mr A WATSON: Chair, I nearly thought you made the decision for me. From the Minister’s answer, if I understood correctly, can she confirm therefore that the checking and passport control and everything else that goes on at borders are only for the honest people and the hunters that bring in a bit of biltong, and that the crooks can come into this country freely will and go anywhere? [Interjections.] That is exactly what she said. Please confirm it.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Watson, I’m sure you’re not implying that all illegal migrants are crooks. I’m sure I don’t hear you say that. I’m sure that is not what you are saying. [Interjections.] It is incorrect, particularly because the people we are talking about here, in the main, come from within the region of SADC; people are coming from Zimbabwe in particular, and there has been this hype about Zimbabwe, and not all illegal immigrants from Zimbabwe or Mozambique or any other country are crooked.

The second thing is that we are not in the business of policing. It is the responsibility of the police to look out for crooks, thieves and robbers. It is not the responsibility, mandate or core function of the Department of Home Affairs. I regulate immigration in the country. Thank you.

    Particulars regarding the irregular receipt of social grants

1. Ms J F Terblanche (DA) asked the Minister of Social Development:

   In light of the fact that he had declared amnesty previously for persons receiving social grants irregularly, (a) what steps is the SA Social Security Agency, Sassa, taking to ensure that public servants do not receive the grants irregularly, (b) how much has been repaid to date, (c) how many of these persons have defaulted on the repayments and (d) what steps has his department taken against the defaulters? CO2032E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, the answer to the question is that due to the scope and impact of the fraud identified on a national level, the SA Social Security Agency, Sassa, has entered into a formal working agreement with the Special Investigating Unit to assist with the legal process in fraud management. In addition, Sassa has conducted a fraud risk analysis and the anticipated completion date is 15 November

1. The fraud risk analysis will now be used to review and compile a fraud prevention plan.

The fraud prevention plan includes proactive monitoring and reactive mechanisms in ensuring fraud prevention. Sassa is implementing a number of fraud prevention strategies to minimise grant fraud. One of the strategies is to conduct data matching between Socpen – the Social Security Pension System - and Persal to identify government employees registered on both systems. This is done on a quarterly basis because of the lack of interface between the two systems.

The answer to the (b) part of the question is that the amount repaid to date is R10 214 719. It should be noted that Sassa is continually uncovering money owed. However, no guarantee exists that alternative illegal recipients of grants will not default on their monthly repayments in the process.

The answer to the (c) part of the question is that the number of defaulters is 1 558.

The answer to the (d) part of the question is that Sassa will institute legal action against defaulters based on the State Attorney’s advice. In addition hereto, Sassa is collaborating with the Department of the Public Service and Administration and the National Treasury to enable it to recover the fraudulent grants through direct Persal deductions. In terms of the agreement and acknowledgements of debt signed, amounts due to the state will be recovered at an interest rate of 15% per annum. Thank you.

Mr S SHICEKA: Chairperson, I want to raise a point of order against the Chair. In terms of the Rules of the House, when a question is asked, the Chair must check whether we get four questions. Then, if there are more than four questions, the people cannot be identified. With regard to the previous question to the Minister of Home Affairs – the Minister has left now – the only person who raised a follow-up question was the hon Watson. I raised my hand very strongly and was not indicated. To me that is a point of order, because that is against the Rules of the House. Thank you very much.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): You are out of order, because I pointed to hon Watson. Even if 10 of you raise your hands, the Rules allow me to use my discretion in terms of the first four hands that I indicate, irrespective of how high the other six hands are raised.

Position regarding councillors who are allegedly still receiving social grants

1. Ms J F Terblanche (DA) asked the Minister of Social Development:

   (1) Whether his department has investigated certain persons (names and details furnished) who recently became councillors and who are allegedly still receiving social grants; if not, why not; if so,

   (2) whether, they qualify for amnesty; if not, what action is being or will be taken against them; if so, why? CO2033E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chair, the answer to the first part of the question is that information was verified on Socpen and there is an investigation under way to determine whether the individuals mentioned are receiving grants unlawfully. Exact identity numbers have been matched against Socpen and Persal to determine if these individuals are registered on either system. Any details relating to the investigation cannot be disclosed at this early stage as such disclosure might jeopardise the investigation at hand.

The answer to the second part of the question is that if the individuals are found guilty, amnesty will not be granted. However, the result of the investigation will determine the action to be taken against them. Thank you.

Employment of school principals on the basis of a performance management system

1. Mr D A Worth (DA) asked the Minister of Education:

   Whether her department has considered employing principals of schools on the basis of a performance management system; if not, why not; if so, (a) when will this be implemented and (b) what are the further relevant details? CO2034E

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION (on behalf of the Minister of Education): Chairperson, on behalf of the Minister of Education, I would like to respond by saying yes on the employing of the principals of schools on the basis of a performance management system.

The proposed date of implementation was 1 July 2007. However, you are all aware that the recent public-sector strike delayed this plan, so the education management service has been incorporated into the salary negotiations in the Public Service Co-ordinating Bargaining Council, pertaining to the occupation-specific dispensation.

In terms of Resolution 1 of 2007, the education management service will form part of the occupation-specific dispensation for educators with implementation from 1 January 2008. The OSD for education is subject to further negotiations with teachers trade unions in the Education Relations Council.

With regard to the second part of the question, the education management service, which is school-based, provides the standardised framework for the remuneration and performance management of deputy principals and principals on the salary levels 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12. Thank you, Chairpeson.

Mr O M THETJENG: Chairperson, I think that the question was answered by the Minister for the Public Service and Administration. She has an overarching policy dynamic within the Public Service. If principals are found not performing, I want to check whether the policy implemented from 1 July allows such principals to be demoted from principals to ordinary teachers on the basis of nonperformance. Thank you.

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION (on behalf of the Minister of Education): Chairperson, first and foremost, I don’t get involved in overarching policy dynamics, but as a member of Cabinet I am exposed to policy development and adoption by Cabinet.

I do want to repeat what I said that, originally, this particular performance management system was due to be implemented in July. It will now be implemented as from January next year. Obviously, as is the case with any performance management system, there will be procedures and principles around its application and, depending on the severity of nonperformance, a range of measures could be taken. Clearly, if considered appropriate, demotion could be factored in.

I think it is difficult for us to pre-empt the details, because this has to be concluded in negotiations. Thanks.

Job opportunities under Expanded Public Works Programme for women in low income groups

1. Ms H Lamoela (DA) asked the Minister of Social Development:

   Whether the Expanded Public Works Programme (EPWP) is also intended to open up job opportunities for low-income women; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? CO2035E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chair, the answer to the question is yes, the Expanded Public Works Programme is actually a government-wide programme, which is led by the Minister of Public Works. The Expanded Public Works Programme can facilitate the creation of entry- level jobs, and many of these jobs would be characterised as low-income jobs. All jobs are open to women and men. If they were not, we could be taken to the SA Human Rights Commission.

The emphasis of the Expanded Public Works Programme within the Department of Social Development is on skills development through further education and training, and on improving the working conditions of early childhood practitioners, and home-based care workers.

The social cluster is building capacity to assist our people to take advantage of work opportunities in the job market. At the same time, the Departments of Social Development and Education are engaged in efforts to improve early childhood development. Thank you, Chair.

Ms H LAMOELA: Chairperson, I thank the Deputy Minister. My follow-up question is: Is there any timeframe set for more advanced skills or training for these people, so that they would be able to move to higher levels, at least earning a higher income? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chair, within the Expanded Public Works Programme there are no such timeframes, but within the other programmes of government it becomes possible, because people are being skilled, that they would be more likely to be able to utilise the labour market and the jobs that are on the market, which are a result of other attempts by the Department of Trade and Industry, for example, and so on. I hope that answers the question.

Challenges faced by provinces in implementing the recovery programme

1. Mr B J Tolo (ANC) asked the Minister of Education:

   (1) (a) What are the challenges in implementing the recovery programme in each province following the public sector strike and (b) how much has this programme cost each province to date;

   (2) whether this programme was budgeted for by provinces; if not, from which programmes did each province allocate money to accommodate it? CO2130E

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION (on behalf of the Minister of Education): Thank you very much, Chairperson. In terms of the challenges in implementing the recovery plan programme, I would want to state that no funds were initially available to support the recovery plan.

Once it became clear that there was a protracted strike, the plan was developed and it was clearly seen that there was a need for implementation on an urgent basis without the normal lead times that allow for the procurement and distribution of materials. The total cost of this programme hasn’t been finally determined as yet, since most of the activities are ongoing.

However, according to the report from the provinces, the Minister of Education is able to report that Mpumalanga has spent R96 million on teacher remuneration for Saturday and holiday classes, and the funds come from their existing communications budget. Additional funds have been requested from the provincial treasury.

The North West has spent R70 million on teacher remuneration. Additional learner-support material and additional funds have been sourced from the provincial treasury. Gauteng has incurred no additional costs for the recovery plan to date, because they have used savings from the personnel costs during the strike – and those are to be reprioritised with Treasury approval to fund spring schools. In KwaZulu-Natal the reports are as with the other provinces – that there have been difficulties in negotiating with teacher unions over the amount of additional teaching time to be spent on the recovery plan.

With regard to the second part of the question, as stated earlier the provinces did not budget for the recovery plan. In some instances, the budgeted funds of the National Strategy for Learner Attainment were used with the strategy being intensified in support of the recovery plan. Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr B J TOLO: Thank you, Minister, for the response. What I just want to say is that it does look like the provinces are not on a par in terms of the implementation of this plan. Other than KwaZulu-Natal, which other provinces are still lagging behind? Do we have plans to enable those provinces to actually advance and be able to cover the work before the exams for the Grade 12s? Thank you.

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION (on behalf of the Minister of Education): Thank you, Chairperson. I am unable to deal with all the details around this. But I do know that the Education Council did have a meeting where they discussed this in a fair amount of detail. They are quite determined to put this plan in place. It’s important for our children and it’s important for our future, generally speaking.

We are aware that if there is an industrial dispute, it’s very clearly a decision from the side of employees to withhold their labour. As such, they clearly would not want to do this to the complete detriment of the public, because it’s also in their interest that they win and regain public support. So, I would assume that it’s also in the interest of organised labour to try to resolve differences wherever they are. From what we have seen, in relation to the recovery plan, the Minister of Education, the Deputy Minister and the team have taken into account all issues that should be taken into account.

The report here says that KwaZulu-Natal - I would assume the other provinces are those that have not been mentioned, such as the Free State, the Northern Cape and so on - has some difficulties around implementation. But I am quite confident that these matters can be ironed out and resolved, because as I said earlier, it’s in the interests of all parties to ensure that we regain the confidence and trust of the public.

The best way for organised labour to do so is to plough back through a programme such as this one in terms of which they will indicate that they consciously withheld their labour in order to get a particular salary outcome. Having done so and because they know there has been a loss of time on the side of learners, they will now look at how best they invest in a manner that will be to the benefit of the public which is important for them. Thanks. Provision of essential professional services in special schools

1. Mr B J Tolo (ANC) asked the Minister of Education:

   (a) Why are special schools not provided with essential professional services such as speech therapists and psychologists and (b) why do provinces like Limpopo deploy ordinary teachers with no special skills in these schools? CO2131E

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION (on behalf of the Minister of Education): Thank you very much, Chairperson. With regard to the question, the distribution of posts amongst schools, including special schools, is based on each school’s relative need for teachers, therapists or psychologists. It’s the prerogative of the schools how posts are filled and distributed according to the curriculum and other support needs.

There are 404 special schools with 87 866 learners, and 7 294 educators. There are long waiting lists for admissions. Not all staff are appropriately qualified, and the Minister of Education indicates that the department is short of therapists and other health professionals.

In some provinces ordinary teachers are also employed to deal with ordinary teaching in special schools. A human resource plan for inclusive education is being developed to address any deficiencies in the deployment of staff to special schools.

Now, I’d like to pre-empt any follow-up questions because my detailed knowledge is a bit limited in this area. I would suggest that follow-up questions be submitted to the Minister of Education for response. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Thanks, hon Minister. I think, hon Minister, that is common sense for every human being – that you are not dealing with the day-to-day operational things and you may not be able to answer some of the questions. [Laughter.]

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, I would just like to note that we have skipped Question 112.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): We will come back to that now. Thank you for alerting me. Hon Chief Whip, you wanted to say something?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chair, it was on a lighter note that I think members … [Inaudible.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Hon Chief Whip, could you sit down, please. These “lighter notes” can cause chaos in this House. Hon members, I nearly made a serious omission. I will go back to the question posed in the name of hon Lamoela, which is Question 112. Fortunately, the hon Deputy Minister of Social Development is still here. She will respond to that question which relates to the 20 000 nonprofit organisations’ funding.

Monitoring and evaluation of nonprofit organisations in social sector

1. Ms H Lamoela (DA) asked the Minister of Social Development:

   (a) Who is responsible for monitoring and evaluating the 20 000 nonprofit organisations (NPOs) in the social sector and (b) to whom do they report? CO2036E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, according to section 17 of the Non-Profit Organisations Act, all registered organisations must keep accounting records of all their financial transactions, according to the standards of Generally Accepted Accounting Practices - that is section 17(1)(a) - and preserve the organisation’s books of accounts, supporting vouchers, membership records, financial and other documents.

In terms of section 18 of the Act, all registered organisations have a duty to provide reports and information to the director of nonprofit organisations, which is in the Department of Social Development. An annual report, that is a narrative of the activities, financial statements and accounting report, as contemplated in section 17 of the Act, must be submitted within nine months after the end of the organisation’s financial year. Thank you, Chair.

                     REPLY TO QUESTION 87 TABLED

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Are there any follow-up questions? There are no follow-up questions. Hon Tolo, I think Question 114 was your question. Am I right – on special schools? No, no, we have dealt with that question.

I just want to bring to the attention of hon members that, as per the request of the hon Minister of Health and in concurrence with the hon Mzizi who posed Question 87, which was supposed to be disposed of, the Minister has tabled the reply to the question. It has been handed over to the Table staff. It will first go to the hon Mzizi, and it will be printed so that all members will be privy to that knowledge.

See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.

The Council adjourned at 17:33. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
                      FRIDAY, 7 SEPTEMBER 2007

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Draft Bills submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159

(a)    National Regulator for Compulsory Specifications Bill, 2007,
     submitted by the Minister of Trade and Industry. Referred to the
     Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry and the Select Committee
     on Economic and Foreign Affairs.


(b)    Standards Bill, 2007, submitted by the Minister of Trade and
     Industry. Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Trade and
     Industry and the Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs.

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Health

a) Report and Financial Statements of the South African Medical
   Research Council (MRC) for 2006-2007, including the Report of the
   Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2006-2007 [RP 172-
   2007].

                      MONDAY, 10 SEPTEMBER 2007

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Communications

 (a)    Report and Financial Statements of Sentech Limited for 2006-
     2007, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the
     Financial Statements for 2006-2007.

1. The Minister of Labour

 (a)    Report and Financial Statements of the National Productivity
     Institute (NPI) for 2006-2007, including the Report of the
     Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2006-2007.

 (b)    Report and Financial Statements of the Local Government Sector
     Education and Training Authority (LG-Seta) for 2006-2007,
     including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
     Statements for 2006-2007 [RP 69-2007].

 (c)    Report and Financial Statements of the Transport Education and
     Training Authority (Teta) for 2006-2007, including the Report of
     the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2006-2007 [RP
     76-2007].

1. The Minister of Trade and Industry

 Please note: The following item amends item 3(f) under the entry
 “Tablings” published on page 1692 of the Announcements, Tablings and
 Committee Reports of 6 September 2007:

 (a)    Report and Financial Statements of the Estate Agency Affairs
     Board for 2006-2007, including the Report of the Independent
     Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2006-2007.

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

CREDA INSERT REPORT - Insert T070910 reprint – insert –PAGES 1698-1714

                     TUESDAY, 11 SEPTEMBER 2007

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Introduction of Bill

 (1)    The Minister of Finance

     (a)     Special Adjustments Appropriation Bill (2007/08 Financial
          Year) [B 37 – 2007] (National Assembly– proposed money Bill)


          Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on
          Finance of the National Assembly, as well as referral to the
          Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of
          Joint Rule 160.


          In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification
          of the Bill may be submitted to the JTM within three
          parliamentary working days.

1. Assent by President in respect of Bills

(a)    Transnet Pension Fund Amendment Bill [B 30B – 2006] – Act No 6
     of 2007 (assented to and signed by President on 3 September 2007).

(b)    Municipal Fiscal Powers and Functions Bill [B 9B– 2007)] – Act
     No 12 of 2007 (assented to and signed by President on 3 September
     2007).

National Council of Provinces The Chairperson

1. Message from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces in respect of Bills passed and transmitted

(1)    Bills passed by National Assembly on 11 September 2007 and
     transmitted for concurrence:


     (a)     Co-operative Banks Bill [B 13B – 2007] (National Assembly
          – sec 75).


          The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on Finance
          of the National Council of Provinces.


     (b)     National Gambling Amendment Bill [B 31B – 2007] (National
          Assembly – sec 76(1)).
          The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on
          Economic and Foreign Affairs of the National Council of
          Provinces.

1. Referral to Committees of papers tabled

 (1)    The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on
     Labour and Public Enterprises and the Select Committee on Economic
     and Foreign Affairs for consideration and report:

      (a)     Report and Financial Statements of the Chemical Industries
          Education and Training Authority (CHIETA) for 2006-2007,
          including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
          Statements for 2006-2007 [RP 59-2007].

      (b)     Report and Financial Statements of the Mining
          Qualifications Authority (MQA) for 2006-2007, including the
          Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for
          2006-2007 [RP 72-2007].

      (c)     Report and Financial Statements of the Manufacturing,
          Engineering and Related Services Sector Education and
          Training Authority (MER-Seta) for 2006-2007, including the
          Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for
          2006-2007 [RP 71-2007].


 (2)    The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on
     Labour and Public Enterprises for consideration and report:

      (a)     Report and Financial Statements of Vote 9 – Department of
          Public Enterprises for 2006-2007, including the Report of the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote 9 for
          2006-2007 [RP 196-2007].

      (b)     Report and Financial Statements of the South African
          Forestry Company Limited (SAFCOL) for 2006-2007, including
          the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial
          Statements for 2006-2007.

      (c)     Report and Financial Statements of the Pebble Bed Modular
          Reactor (Proprietary) Limited for 2006-2007, including the
          Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial
          Statements for 2006-2007.

      (d)     Report and Financial Statements of the Commission for
          Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration (CCMA) for 2006-2007,
          including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
          Statements for 2006-2007 [RP 93-2007].


      (e)     Report and Financial Statements of the Information
          Systems, Electronics and Telecommunications Technologies
          Sector Education and Training Authority (ISETT-Seta) for 2006-
          2007, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
          Financial Statements for 2006-2007 [RP 68-2007].

      (f)     Report and Financial Statements of the Media, Advertising,
          Publishing, Printing and Packaging Sector Education and
          Training Authority (MAPPP-Seta) for 2006-2007, including the
          Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for
          2006-2007 [RP 70-2007].

      (g)     Report and Financial Statements of the Export Credit
          Insurance Corporation of South Africa for 2006-2007,
          including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the
          Financial Statements for 2006-2007.

      (h)     Report and Financial Statements of the South African
          National Accreditation System (SANAS) for 2006-2007,
          including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the
          Financial Statements for 2006-2007.
 (3)    The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on
     Labour and Public Enterprises and the Select Committee on Land and
     Environmental Affairs for consideration and report:

      (a)     Report and Financial Statements of the Forest Industries
          Education and Training Authority (FIETA) for 2006-2007,
          including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
          Statements for 2006-2007 [RP 64-2007].

      (b)     Report and Financial Statements of the Food and Beverages
          Manufacturing Sector Education and Training Authority
          (FoodBev-Seta) for 2006-2007, including the Report of the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2006-2007 [RP
          65-2007].

      (c)     Report and Financial Statements of the Agricultural Sector
          Education and Training Authority (Agri-Seta) for 2006-2007,
          including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
          Statements for 2006-2007 [RP 56-2007].


 (4)    The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on
     Education and Recreation for consideration and report:

      (a)     Report and Financial Statements of the Northern Flagship
          Institution for 2006-2007, including the Report of the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2006-2007 [RP
          153-2007].


      (b)     Report and Financial Statements of the Windybrow Centre
          for the Arts for 2006-2007, including the Report of the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2006-2007.


      (c)     Report and Financial Statements of the Afrikaans Language
          Museum for 2006-2007, including the Report of the Auditor-
          General on the Financial Statements for 2006-2007 [RP 191-
          2007].


      (d)     Report and Financial Statements of the National Library of
          South Africa for 2006-2007, including the Report of the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2006-2007 [RP
          175-2007].


      (e)     Report and Financial Statements of The Freedom Park Trust
          for 2006-2007, including the Report of the Auditor-General on
          the Financial Statements for 2006-2007.

      (f)     Report and Financial Statements of the South African
          Library for the Blind for 2006-2007, including the Report of
          the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2006-
          2007.

      (g)     Report and Financial Statements of the South African
          Heritage Resources Agency (SAHRA) for 2006-2007, including
          the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
          for 2006-2007 [RP 195-2007].

      (h)     Report and Financial Statements of the National English
          Literary Museum for 2006-2007, including the Report of the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2006-2007.

      (i)     Report and Financial Statements of the National Heritage
          Council for 2006-2007, including the Report of the Auditor-
          General on the Financial Statements for 2006-2007 [RP 192-
          2007].


      (j)     Report and Financial Statements of The Playhouse Company
          for 2006-2007, including the Report of the Auditor-General on
          the Financial Statements for 2006-2007.

      (k)     Report and Financial Statements of the Council on Higher
          Education (CHE) for 2006-2007, including the Report of the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2006-2007.

      (l)     Report and Financial Statements of the National Student
          Financial Aid Scheme (NSFAS) for 2006-2007, including the
          Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for
          2006-2007 [RP 180-2007].

      (m)     Report and Financial Statements of the National Museum –
          Bloemfontein for 2006-2007, including the Report of the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2006-2007.

      (n)     Report and Financial Statements of Artscape for 2006-2007,
          including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
          Statements for 2006-2007.


      (o)     Report and Financial Statements of the South African State
          Theatre for 2006-2007, including the Report of the Auditor-
          General on the Financial Statements for 2006-2007 [RP 156-
          2007].

      (p)     Report and Financial Statements of the National Arts
          Council of South Africa (NAC) for 2006-2007, including the
          Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for
          2006-2007 [RP 186-2007].

      (q)     Report and Financial Statements of the Robben Island
          Museum for 2006-2007, including the Report of the Auditor-
          General on the Financial Statements for 2006-2007 [RP 161-
          2007].

      (r)     Report and Financial Statements of the Pan South African
          Language Board (Pansalb) for 2006-2007, including the Report
          of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2006-
          2007 [RP 174-2007].

      (s)     Report and Financial Statements of the William Humphreys
          Art Gallery for 2006-2007, including the Report of the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2006-2007.

      (t)     Report and Financial Statements of the National Film and
          Video Foundation (NFVF) for 2006-2007, including the Report
          of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2006-
          2007 [RP 150-2007].


      (u)     Report and Financial Statements of the Iziko Museums of
          Cape Town for 2006-2007, including the Report of the Auditor-
          General on the Financial Statements for 2006-2007.

 (5)    The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on
     Land and Environmental Affairs for consideration and report:

      (a)     Report and Financial Statements of the South African
          Weather Service (SAWS) for 2006-2007, including the Report of
          the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2006-2007
          [RP 114-2007].


      (b)     Report and Financial Statements of South African Tourism
          for 2006-2007, including the Report of the Auditor-General on
          the Financial Statements for 2006-2007.

      (c)     Report and Financial Statements of the South African
          National Biodiversity Institute (SANBI) for 2006-2007,
          including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
          Statements for 2006-2007.


      (d)     Report and Financial Statements of the Greater St Lucia
          Wetland Park Authority for 2006-2007, including the Report of
          the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2006-
          2007.


 (6)    The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on
     Security and Constitutional Affairs for consideration and report:

      (a)     Report and Financial Statements of the Office of the
          Public Protector of South Africa for 2006-2007, including the
          Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for
          2006-2007 [RP 193-2007].

      (b)     Report and Financial Statements of Vote 21 – Department of
          Defence for 2006-2007, including the Report of the Auditor-
          General on the Financial Statements of Vote 21 for 2006-2007.




      (c)     Report and Financial Statements of the Armaments
          Corporation of South Africa Limited (ARMSCOR) for 2006-2007,
          including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
          Statements for 2006-2007 [RP 101-2007].


 (7)    The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on
     Finance for consideration and report:

      (a)     Report and Financial Statements of the Development Bank of
          Southern Africa Limited for 2006-2007, including the Report
          of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for
          2006-2007.
      (b)     Report and Financial Statements of Sasria Limited for 2006-
          2007, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the
          Financial Statements for 2006-2007.

      (c)     Report and Financial Statements of the Accounting
          Standards Board (ASB) for 2006-2007, including the Report of
          the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2006-
          2007 [RP 85-2007].

      (d)     Report and Financial Statements of the Financial
          Intelligence Centre for 2006-2007, including the Report of
          the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2006-2007
          [RP 133-2007].

      (e)     Report and Financial Statements of the Financial and
          Fiscal Commission (FFC) for 2006-2007, including the Report
          of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2006-
          2007 [RP 143-2007].

 (8)    The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on
     Education and Recreation and the Select Committee on Labour and
     Public Enterprises for consideration and report:

      (a)     Report and Financial Statements of the Education Labour
          Relations Council (ELRC) for 2006-2007, including the Report
          of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2006-
          2007 [RP 145-2007].

 (9)    The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on Land
     and Environmental Affairs for consideration:
      (a)     Strategic Plan of the Marine Living Resources Fund for
          2007 to 2010.

 (10)   The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on
     Labour and Public Enterprises and the Select Committee on Finance
     for consideration and report:

      (a)     Report and Financial Statements of the Insurance Sector
          Education and Training Authority (Inseta) for 2006-2007,
          including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
          Statements for 2006-2007 [RP 67-2007].

      (b)     Report and Financial Statements of the Banking Sector
          Education and Training Authority (Bank-Seta) for 2006-2007,
          including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
          Statements for 2006-2007 [RP 57-2007].

      (c)     Report and Financial Statements of the Finance,
          Accounting, Management Consulting and other Financial
          Services Sector Education and Training Authority (FASSET) for
          2006-2007, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
          Financial Statements for 2006-2007 [RP 63-3007].


 (11)   The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on
     Labour and Public Enterprises and the Select Committee on Economic
     and Foreign Affairs for consideration and report:

      (a)     Report and Financial Statements of the Services Sector
          Education and Training Authority (Services Seta) for 2006-
          2007, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
          Financial Statements for 2006-2007 [RP 88-2007].
      (b)     Report and Financial Statements of the Clothing, Textiles,
          Footwear and Leather Sector Education and Training Authority
          (CTFL-Seta) for 2006-2007, including the Report of the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2006-2007 [RP
          60-2007].


      (c)     Report and Financial Statements of the Wholesale and
          Retail Sector Education and Training Authority (W&R-Seta) for
          2006-2007, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
          Financial Statements for 2006-2007 [RP 78-2007].

      (d)     Report and Financial Statements of the Wholesale and
          Retail Sector Education and Training Authority (W&R-Seta) for
          2006-2007, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
          Financial Statements for 2006-2007 [RP 78-2007].

 (12)   The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on
     Labour and Public Enterprises, the Select Committee on Land and
     Environmental Affairs and the Select Committee on Education and
     Recreation for consideration and report:

      (a)     Report and Financial Statements of the Tourism,
          Hospitality and Sport Education and Training Authority
          (Theta) for 2006-2007, including the Report of the Auditor-
          General on the Financial Statements for 2006-2007 [RP 77-
          2007].


 (13)   The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on
     Labour and Public Enterprises and the Select Committee on Social
     Services for consideration and report:

      (a)     Report and Financial Statements of the Health and Welfare
          Sector Education and Training Authority (HW-Seta) for 2006-
          2007, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
          Financial Statements for 2006-2007 [RP 66-2007].


 (14)   The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on
     Labour and Public Enterprises and the Select Committee on
     Education and Recreation for consideration and report:

      (a)     Report and Financial Statements of the Education, Training
          and Development Practices Sector Education and Training
          Authority (ETDP-Seta) for 2006-2007, including the Report of
          the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2006-2007
          [RP 62-2007].


 (15)   The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on
     Economic and Foreign Affairs for consideration and report:

      (a)     Report and Financial Statements of the Industrial
          Development Corporation of South Africa Limited (IDC) for
          2006-2007, including the Report of the Independent Auditors
          on the Financial Statements for 2006-2007.


      (b)     Report and Financial Statements of the Competition
          Commission for 2006-2007, including the Report of the Auditor-
          General on the Financial Statements for 2006-2007 [RP 102-
          2007].


 (16)   The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on
     Labour and Public Enterprises and the Joint Monitoring Committee
     on the Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Children,
     Youth and Disabled Persons for consideration and report:

      (a)     Report and Financial Statements of the Umsobomvu Youth
          Fund (UYF) for 2006-2007, including the Report of the
          Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2006-
          2007.

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Trade and Industry

 (a)    Report and Financial Statements of the National Gambling Board
     for 2006-2007, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
     Financial Statements for 2006-2007 [RP 142-2007].

National Council of Provinces

CREDA INSERT REPORT - Insert T070911 – insert – PAGES 1728-1820