FRIDAY, 2 NOVEMBER 2007 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
                                ____

The Council met at the Pniel Cricket Club in Pniel, Stellenbosch, at 10:41.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

               WELCOMING OF PRESIDENT OF SOUTH AFRICA

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, order! Hon members, order! Order! There will now be a moment for silent prayer or meditation… May we, please, be seated? Hon members, may I draw the attention of those who are not aware of the formal sitting of the National Council of Provinces, to the fact that we now have a formal sitting and not a public hearing. Please, everybody must keep quiet. There must be no noise today, unlike what we had during the course of the week, which was a very good noise. But today, could you please be quiet and listen?

The President of the country has come here to talk to us. So, from the back, the middle part there and everybody in this part of the marquee, let us all be quiet.

I would like to take this opportunity to welcome the President of the Republic of South Africa to the sitting of the National Council of Provinces in Stellenbosch District Municipality, here in Pniel. I am pleased that the President has graced this occasion to address us. I, therefore, call upon the President to address us. [Applause.]

  DEEPENING THE DEBATE ON TRANSFORMATION FOR A BETTER LIFE FOR ALL

                        (President’s Address)

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Chairperson of the NCOP, Deputy Chairperson, Premiers, hon members of the NCOP, distinguished guests, people of Stellenbosch, ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for the honour to address this important annual meeting of the NCOP. I am indeed very happy that my address to the NCOP takes place once more during your programme of Taking Parliament to the People so as to engage citizens on matters that confront them on a daily basis.

I must say, Chairperson, that indeed I am very pleased that you came out here so that you could listen to what the people are saying in this part of our country, because we know of some of the problems that face us here. The problems, for instance, that face the farmworkers, people who live and work on the farms, the problems of poverty, housing and the problems of people being chased away from areas where they have lived for so many, many years.

I would hope, Chairperson, that indeed, having listened during the session of Taking Parliament to the People, we will, all of us as government, respond to all of the matters that the people will have raised. I would sincerely like to express my gratitude for this campaign of broadening participation on parliamentary matters, ensuring that the work of this important organ of our public representatives is not just confined to the parliamentary precincts, but also involves dynamic engagements with the masses of our people in giving real meaning to the galvanising liberation call that “the people shall govern”.

This year marks the 5th anniversary of the NCOP programme of taking parliamentary sittings to the people. When we first launched the programme back in 2002, we expressly stated that it was aimed at ensuring the advancement of the vision of Parliament, which is

To build an effective people’s Parliament that is responsive to the needs of the people and that is driven by the ideal of realising a better quality of life for all the people of South Africa.

Importantly, this programme has also seen active mass participation by ordinary people, including women and the youth, throughout the provinces that the NCOP has so far visited. In this way, our people have been able to share their experiences, both positive and negative, with their elected representatives. They have also made useful inputs into the improvement of the systems of governance designed to provide services to communities.

Accordingly, the programme has provided government with an opportunity to impact positively on the lives of the people by identifying constraints and weaknesses at the provincial and local levels and to inform the oversight work of the NCOP.

Hon members, you have chosen a very important theme for this event, which is: “Deepening the debate on transformation for a better life for all”. Appropriately, this theme seeks to galvanise all of us, as South Africans – black and white, urban and rural, and young and old - into an ongoing and vigorous process of engagement so as to enhance the quality of the national debate in the process of transforming our country.

In this regard, deepening the debate on transformation throws up a challenge to all of us to honestly confront key issues that constitute the background, dynamics and characteristics of our public debate, as well as assess the breadth and inclusiveness of our national dialogue. At the same time, engaging and deepening national debate affords us an opportunity to ask obligatory questions that touch on the ownership, production and distribution of the means of information, as well as the consumption patterns of ideas encased in the general rubric we call “the public debate”.

I am confident that, through our national dialogue, we are motivated by our shared national interests to promote the vision of a society free of the crippling divisions of racism and sexism, working to realise the goal of a better life for all South Africans.

Critically, the key issue of the production, distribution and consumption patterns of ideas on the national stage is necessarily compounded by the unique character of our society, which is shaped by the history of colonialism and apartheid, marked by glaring inequalities in ownership patterns, literacy, capital and, in many cases, access to information.

Among other things, the repercussions of this historical reality, which, in turn, has disfigured our shared modern reality, serve to forestall significant sections of our people from meaningful engagements with certain forms of media, which are powerful and pervasive, thus further distorting prevailing currents of thought in the national domain.

Accordingly, for us to deepen the debate on transformation to build a better life for all also means to pay close attention to the matter of who frames the public discourse in South Africa; why this has been almost an exclusive monopoly of certain groups; and whether we have the means and the will to ensure that the production of ideas is a process that serves the interests of all South Africans as well as advancing the agenda of transformation.

This theme is also very relevant to the areas of focus that you identified for this event, which, as you know, are social transformation in areas such as education, health, housing, social security, sport and recreation, land and agriculture, economic transformation - which includes the empowerment of women and youth - the economic programmes and policies, sharing of economic opportunities, the implementation of Asgisa, the Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative for SA, and Jipsa, the Joint Initiative on Priority Skills Acquisition, to alleviate poverty, public transport infrastructure, the Expanded Public Works Programme and job creation.

You have identified safety and security – specifically, community involvement in fighting crime, domestic violence, strategies for fighting violent crime, governance and local service delivery, which include the capacity of local government, strategies to assist local government and intergovernmental fiscal administration.

For us to be able to deepen the debate on transformation for a better life, we need, first and foremost, to tell the truth about the focus areas you have identified and the general reality of South Africa.

I have no doubt that, in your provincial visits, as part of the programme of Taking Parliament to the People, many of the hon members would have better understood Amilcar Cabral’s famous assertion, namely “Tell no lies; claim no easy victories”. Clearly, to avoid telling lies and claiming easy victories means to know the actual reality and tell the truth as it is.

I am confident that the NCOP embarked on this programme of Taking Parliament to the People so as to avoid telling lies and claiming easy victories. You come out to the people to hear for yourselves about the actual living conditions of the people and whether government programmes are having any impact on their lives, especially the lives of the poor, and identify things that need to be changed as well as any additional programmes that should be put in place with the objective of strengthening the national effort towards a better life.

Indeed, all spheres of government constantly engage in the izimbizo campaigns because, among other things, the masses of our people who attend the various izimbizo, speak truthfully about their conditions, where progress has been made, weaknesses in government’s systems, where and what to improve.

These masses express their views freely, frankly and in a spirit that shows they are unencumbered by the so-called stifling of debate from officialdom. In most instances, these masses address issues, neither in an artificial manner nor in a sensational way, because to them the resolution of their living conditions is more critical than melodramatic headlines.

Recently, Statistics SA released the Community Survey 2007 findings which revealed, among other things, the level of transformation in the lives of South Africans. Having collated responses from over 230 000 households, this community survey is the largest and most comprehensive conducted by Statistics SA outside the census surveys.

The survey which collected information on population size, composition and distribution, migration, fertility and mortality, disability and social grants, school attendance and educational attainment, labour force and income, found that, overall, the conditions of life of the majority of South Africans have improved markedly since 1996.

Service delivery on all these developmental markers has improved dramatically since its two previous surveys, underlining the fact that government has been working tirelessly since 1994 to ensure that it meets its commitment with regard to the challenge of advancing progressively towards the achievement of the goal of a better life for all.

The fight against poverty is central to the work of the democratic government and drives government’s programme of action. As hon members know, government has different programmes that are implemented in an integrated manner to push back the frontiers of poverty. Among these anti- poverty programmes, we are working on a comprehensive social security system to further strengthen the national support system for the poor people of our country.

According to the Community Survey 2007, over 11 million South Africans now access the social grant. An overwhelming majority of these make use of the Child Support Grant, while pensions formed the second biggest grant, with just over 21% drawing from this fund.

We know as a matter of fact that if we had not intervened in the manner that we did through the social security system, more than 11 million South Africans would be living in abject poverty.

Furthermore, since 1994, housing has always been an important aspect of our reconstruction and development programme. Today, over 70% of South Africans live in informal houses. The percentage of households living in formal houses has increased from 64% in 1996 to over 70% in 2007. In addition, the number of people with no access to any toilet has reduced significantly since 2001, and now we have improvements. This year 55% have access to flush toilets, an improvement from 49% in 2001.

However, challenges still remain. While we continue to build more houses for the homeless, approximately 15% of the population still lives in informal dwellings.

Another important part of the promise for a better life for all includes the provision of electricity. Today, 80% of South African households use electricity as the main source of lighting in their houses. This is indeed a very dramatic improvement, especially when compared to the 57,6% in 1996.

What is important is the impact that electricity is having, especially on the rural poor, with more people falling in the provinces that are mainly rural accessing electricity. You know the figures, Chairperson, for instance, for Eastern Cape, KwaZulu-Natal, Mpumalanga, Free State, North- West and Northern Cape.

We have also seen a marked improvement in the area of access to clean water, with 88,6% of the people in the country having access to clean water today.

Furthermore, education, which is undoubtedly the most powerful weapon in our arsenal in the fight against poverty and which, as a result, receives the second largest portion of our budget, still poses serious challenges. Overall, the number of South Africans who now receive some form of education has increased by nine per cent since 1996.

School attendance, which is now compulsory for children aged 7-15 has ensured that 74% of our youth aged between 5 and 24 now attend school. Today, 40% of South Africans have some secondary education, which is a six per cent increase from 1996. Higher education, the source of the much- needed skills in our country, also reflects notable improvements. On this front, the survey revealed that 9,1% of our people over the age of 20 have now completed some form of tertiary education, as opposed to seven per cent in 1996.

Although these figures indicate important improvements in the number of people who are now able to access education, without doubt, it is clear that we must intensify our work to ensure that access to education is improved and further enhances the quality of our school-leavers and graduates.

Again, we have seen important improvements in the area of job creation in the past few years. For instance, between December 2004 and December 2005, there was a 2,2% increment in employment in the formal non-agricultural sector.

Recently, between June 2006 and June 2007, the number of employed people grew by 3%, adding over 200 000 new jobs in the formal, again, non- agricultural economic sector. The trend of increased employment continues annually.

We are, of course, the first to admit that we need to substantially increase these numbers so as to radically reduce our unemployment rate. This means, among other things, improving the skills of our people, ensuring more investment in the productive economy and attracting more domestic and foreign investment into our economy.

All these positive findings confirm our commitment as government to the pursuit of the goal of a better life for all. Of importance also is that we are well on track to meet most of the Millennium Development Goals to which we committed ourselves.

I have cited these findings of the Community Survey 2007 which communicate the same message that we get in various izimbizo campaigns that life today is better than yesterday and tomorrow it will be much better than today. I have referred to this survey also to say that, to deepen the debate on transformation for a better life means that we should tell the truth about the progress we are making as South Africans towards a better life.

That truth must, of course, also reflect on the fact that there are many things that are still outstanding, as the hon members of the NCOP would have heard from the local community here at Stellenbosch. But there are many challenges in respect of all of these issues, whether housing, electricity, water or jobs, that we must still attend to.

But, those who are so bold as to make outrageous suggestions that the lives of our people are worse now than during the apartheid period should tell our people that a shack is more habitable than a house, that the bucket system is preferable to a flush toilet, that river water is healthier than clean water and that candles burn brighter than electric globes. [Applause.]

Hon members, in the past few months, many South Africans would have seen strong suggestions from sections of the media that the South African government is bent on destroying media freedom. A few of these have even attempted to draw comparisons with the repugnant apartheid government which in 1977 banned a number of publications, including The World and The Weekend World.

These suggestions arose because of two matters - the consideration of the Films and Publications Amendment Bill currently before this House, as well as the theft of medical records of the Minister of Health, which ended up in the hands of a Sunday newspaper.

As hon members of the NCOP know, with regard to the Films and Publications Amendment Bill, it is stated that the intention is to amend the Films and Publications Act of 1996, so as to make further provision for the prohibition of child pornography; to provide anew for the designation of the Chairperson of the Review Board; to make certain textual alterations; to make further provision regarding the classification of films and publications; to provide for the registration of Internet service providers; to provide for an obligation to report offences involving child pornography and to increase penalties for offences involving child pornography; and to provide for matters connected therewith.

Now, you hon members must still decide how you would deal with this Bill. The point I would like to make with regard to the debate around this Bill is that many South Africans who are not in Parliament or have not had the opportunity to read this Bill, but rely on both our print and electronic media will be forgiven for thinking that this is a law - where are we going to put this thing - whose intention is to beat the former apartheid Minister of Law and Order, Jimmy Kruger, at his game of gagging the media.

In general, not enough has been done to appraise consumers of news of the main purpose of the Bill, giving the possibility for the media, within this context, to indicate the areas which in their view may infringe on their work.

Accordingly, there has been no attempt to deepen the debate on transformation for a better life. Perhaps government should also accept that it has not done enough in this regard. This has created the situation in which the public is fed half-truths and speculations about government intentions, which have no basis in fact. As a result, our people have been left that much poorer with regard to their engagement with what is a matter of national importance.

The government has at all times upheld and defended the Constitution of the Republic. I would like to reaffirm that we who sacrificed all our adult lives for this freedom would never trample on this sacred Constitution which constitutes a pact made by all our people. Our Constitution is unambiguous on this point. It states that everyone has the right to freedom of expression, which includes freedom of the press and other media, freedom to receive or impart information or ideas, freedom of artistic creativity and academic freedom and freedom of scientific research.

The democratic state has, since 1994, continued to uphold and respect the letter and spirit of our Constitution, aware that our Constitution is a historic, legally binding document that marks out the contours of the new dispensation and its attendant values, separating the new from the degenerate apartheid state whose legacy we are working to eradicate.

Among the many challenges government faces, as it continues to grapple with the issues of poverty, access to basic services and sustainable economic growth, is the critically important matter of moral degeneration.

Our communities are faced with the daily threat of drugs and alcohol abuse and the evils of child and women abuse and child pornography. It is clear that those who engage in these immoral activities like child pornography are using loopholes in our media laws to commit their depraved acts. This licentiousness is not compatible with the ethical standards our people would like to see upheld and defended at all times.

Among others, government has the responsibility to ensure that the people of South Africa enjoy and our children grow up in a society marked by consistent observation of high moral standards. Therefore, government has looked at the manner in which we can defend our values of ubuntu and those of the various faiths in our society, when it re-examined the Films and Publications Act of 1996.

Ironically, the prevailing interpretation of reality in our public discourse continues to portray these open and above-board processes as an act of constitutional violation and a threat to media freedom. Accordingly, government’s announcement that it would seek to amend the Films and Publications Act of 1996 has suffered distortions by the agents of interpretative commentary in certain sections of the media which depicts this act as a thinly disguised attempt at limiting freedom of speech. One can usefully capture the dilemma contained in these assertions as they play themselves out in the public arena by citing the English phrase: Damned if you do, damned if you do not!

Precisely, because we have absolutely no intention to limit press freedom, while, inter alia, we must deal firmly with the scourge of child pornography, we are engaged in what has turned into protracted discussions with representatives of the media. As government, we are interested that all of us as South Africans should agree on the matters raised in the amendments to the Films and Publications Act.

Again, a case of theft of medical records is investigated and government is accused of threatening media freedom. If people steal they must expect the full brunt of the law, irrespective of their status in society. [Applause.] Let me state this clearly, it is not necessary for the government and the President to tell the police to do their work. They know their responsibility with regard to crime.

The task of undoing the damage of history in our country cannot be quantified. It is an ongoing task that requires intensified efforts and firm determination.

I would like to thank the NCOP for continuing to carry out this work without fail and wish that you grow from strength to strength, discharging your duties with distinction with each passing year.

In this regard, it is critically important that we continue to listen to what the people say and understand what they think as you have been doing this week. The necessary space must be created for the people to participate in the important process in which the NCOP is involved, the process of deepening the debate on transformation for a better life for all!

This is not a debate merely to say that we did talk. It is a debate to establish the truth about where we are today on our journey towards achieving the goal of a better life for all and what we need to do further to accelerate our advance to ensure that tomorrow will be better than today.

One of the best sources of the truth about these matters is the people themselves. This is precisely the reason why we applaud the work the NCOP is doing, directly to interact with the people themselves rather than rely on the interpretation of our reality by people who have their own agendas.

History has imposed on all of us the onerous responsibility to achieve the goal of a better life for all our people and indeed we dare not fail. Again I would like to thank the NCOP for the work that they are doing to make sure that we do indeed achieve this goal. I thank you very much. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Sanibonani nonke. Goeiemôre almal. [Good morning, everyone.]

Ngethemba nijabulile ukuzwa uMongameli wethu ekhuluma nathi namhlanje ngazo zonke izinto ekade nikhuluma ngazo phakathi neviki. Sizokhuluma-ke singandi kakhulu nenkulumo bese sizama ukuveza kuthi yini esiyitholile kinina nokuthi yini esizoyenza.

Ngithanda-ke ukubingelela uMongameli, oNdunankulu bethu, oSomlomo bethu kanye nabo bonke abantu baseNingizimu Afrika.

Size lapha e-Pniel namhlanje ngoba sizolalela abantu bakithi bekhuluma nathi ngezinkinga zabo ezibahluphayo. Umsebenzi-ke Womkhandlu Kazwelonke Wezifundazwe ukuzolalela nokubona ukuthi ngabe lezi zinto esizithola emphakathini sizokwenzani ngazo ukuze zilungiseke. Asizukugcina ngokulalela nje kuphela. Nathi sizenzela ucwaningo ngokwethu ngosizo lwe-Hansard yethu. Ngithanda-ke ukusho, Mongameli, ukuthi sijabule kakhulu ukubalalela abantu base-Pniel.

Kubalulekile ukuthi amabanga amathathu kahulumeni kufanele asebenzisane ukuze zonke izinto ezivezwa ngabantu zikwazi ukulandelwa futhi zifezwe. Uhulumeni omkhulu, owezifundazwe nowasekhaya kufanele basebenze ndawonye. Akekho uhulumeni oyedwa ozokwazi ukwenza lezi zinto esizifunayo. Uma kungekho ukusebenzisana phakathi kwethu, sonke sizohluleka ukwenza lezi zinto ezifunwa yilaba bantu ekade sikhuluma nabo namhlanje. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[I am sure you were all happy to listen to our President addressing us here today, talking about all the issues that you raised earlier in the week. We will now have a brief discussion in order to put together the issues that you have raised and then decide what we are going to about them.

I would like to greet the hon President, our hon Ministers, our Speakers and all the people of South Africa.

We have come to Pniel today to listen to our people talking to us about their problems. The duty of the NCOP is to listen and to decide what must be done about the issues that are raised by the public so that they may be addressed. We will not rely solely on listening to you. We also conduct our own research, with the assistance of our Hansard. Therefore, I would like to say, Mr President, that we were very happy to listen to the people of Pniel.

It is important that the three spheres of government work together so that all the concerns that are raised by the public are followed up and addressed. National, provincial and local government must work together. No single sphere of government is capable of delivering, on its own, all the things that we want. If there is no co-operation among us, we will all fail to deliver the services required by all these people who have been talking to us today.]

Al drie regeringsfere wat ons het, die nasionale, provinsiale en plaaslike regering, moet saamwerk om hierdie dinge los te maak en om die regte ding te doen wat die mense van ons vra. Dis die regte ding wat ons moet doen. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[All three spheres of government that we have, the national, provincial and local government, should work together to solve all these problems and do as the people ask. It is the right thing to do.]

The one thing that the NCOP is not going to do, is to work from offices and point fingers. What we are going to do is to continue coming to the people and work with them on the ground. [Applause.] I must point out that over the week I have been here, I have been very disappointed. I cannot leave this podium without expressing my disappointment, which I am going to do now, in front of the people.

To start with, we have elected people in this country who serve at national, provincial and local government level. I have been very disappointed that the MPLs of the Western Cape have not been here regularly since Monday. [Applause.]

I want to thank those four who were here with us regularly. I want to thank them very much because they take this programme very seriously. I was very disappointed that the local councillors who were elected by the people did not participate in this programme. [Applause.]

On Monday, when we were dealing with local government issues, I counted less than five of them who were in here. On Thursday, when we were dealing with issues relating to the distribution of water to the people, there were no councillors in this House and I was very disappointed. [Applause.]

Ngithanda ukusho-ke namhlanje ukuthi sikhethwe ngabantu. Uma sikhethwe ngabantu kusho ukuthi sizosebenzela abantu futhi sizobalalela ukuthi bathini. [I would like to say here, today, we have been elected by the people. Being elected by the people means that we are going to serve the people and that we are going to listen to what they say.]

Whether we like what they are saying or not, they are worth listening to because they elected us. [Applause.] As a leader, when you enjoy your work and make a positive experience of it, remember that you are doing that not only for yourself but also for other people. You cannot watch the clock all the time and say that you have made a contribution. If you do that then you are not in the right job; you’d better go and find yourself another job. Uma sesisuka lapha sihamba, ngoMsombuluko kufanele kube nabantu abazolandela zonke lezi zinto abantu abakhulume ngazo lapha ukuze babone ukuthi ziyenzakala. Uhulumeni omkhulu akakwazi ukubona ukuthi kungani lo muntu engakwazanga ukuthola imali yakhe yempesheni izinyanga ezine. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[When we depart on Monday, there should be people who are going to follow up all the issues that have been raised by the people so that they may be addressed. National government cannot understand why this person has not received his pension for four months.]

They cannot trace that. You are here and so you must tell us. Why can’t you see that?

Abantu abalapha phansi yibona okufanele bazi ukuthi … [The people on the ground are the ones who must know that …]

… there is a toilet blockage in this and that particular house.

Abantu abalapha phansi yibona okufanele bazi ukuthi … [The people on the ground are the ones who must know that …]

… there is a pothole in that road and tell the local government, the provincial government and the national government about it - which we will do, because we work very closely with the national Ministers. I want to thank the MECs who have been here, particularly hon Dyantyi, MEC for Local Government and Housing. [Applause.] I want to thank the hon Cobus Dowry, the Western Cape Minister of Agriculture, who was here; the acting Premier, hon Ramatlakane, who has been constantly interacting with us and making sure that things are going right; and to the Speaker of the Western Cape legislature, Shaun Beyneveldt, thank you very much.

Ngoba-ke nina beningekho, nansi into engizoyenza: onke amakomiti oMkhandlu Kazwelonke Wezifundazwe … [Because you were not present, this is what I am going to do: All the committees of the NCOP …]

Chair of chairs, where are you?

Onke amakomidi oMkhandlu Kazwelonke Wezifundazwe kuzofanele ukuthi, mayelana nalezi zinto eziphakanyiswe abantu lapha kuleli sonto, … [All the committees of the NCOP, with regard to all the issues that have been raised by the public here, this week, will have to …]

… come and camp here and do the job with the people in the first term of 2008.

My tyd is verstreke. Laat ek net een ding sê. Die mishandeling van plaaswerkers, plaasuitsetting en onregverdige arbeidspraktyke op plase is ernstig. Dis ’n groot probleem wat julle nog het hier. Ons vra tog – ons vra baie lekker vandag en ons vra baie mooi – laat die plase lekker werk met ons mense op die plase. Hulle het ook regte as werkers op die plase. Betaal hulle goed as julle geld het om hulle te betaal, want hulle werk baie hard. Hulle werk baie ure op die plase. Hulle werk, want julle maak julle produksie so groot dat ons almal kan eet. Betaal hulle ook baie goed, want hulle werk. [Applous.]

Waar dit moontlik is, gee vir hulle mooi huise op die plase om in te bly. Waar dit moontlik is, bou skole vir hul kinders om skool toe te gaan, asseblief. Waar dit moontlik is, laat hulle ook lekker eet soos almal van ons op die plaas. Hulle is ook die mense. Hulle soek daardie goed, net soos enigeen wat in die dorp lewe en werk. Julle is die werkskeppers op daardie plase. Ons vra vir julle baie mooi en ek sê baie dankie vir daardie boere by wie ons mense regtig lekker werk. Ek sê dankie aan julle. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[My time has expired. Let me just say one more thing. The abuse of farmworkers, farm evictions and unfair labour practices on farms are serious. This is a big problem that you still have here. We would like to ask – we are asking very nicely today – let the farmers treat our people on the farms decently. They also have rights as labourers on the farms. Pay them well if you can afford to because they work very hard. They work long hours on the farms. They work hard because you make your productions so big so that we can all eat. So, pay them well, because they also work hard. [Applause.] Where it is possible, give them nice houses on the farms to live in. Where it is possible, build schools for their children to go to, please. Where it is possible, let them also eat well like all of us on the farms. They are also human beings. They need those things just like anyone living and working in town. You are the job creators on those farms. We ask this very nicely and I say thank you very much to those farmers for whom our people really enjoy working. I say thank you to you.]

We will also make sure that the issue you have raised concerning the lack of facilities for children is addressed.

I want to come to the issue of ward committees. Ward committees are very important and they must work together with councillors because we cannot allow a division between them. When you all go to the meetings, you must explain the Integrated Development Plans to the people and the priorities for particular areas.

We cannot allow divisions between ward committees and councillors, and that has to be addressed in all municipalities, irrespective of the majority parties therein. All of you must work together for the progress of the people. We cannot work and make progress in the face of the divisions that we are experiencing. I want to thank you very much and I will listen to other people as they debate. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Before I call the next speaker I would like to make an announcement with regard to interpreting services. Channel 1 is for English, Channel 2 Afrikaans, Channel 3 IsiXhosa, Channel 4 Tshivenda, Channel 5 Setswana and Channel 6 Siswati.

The ACTING PREMIER OF THE WESTERN CAPE (Mr L Ramatlakane): Chairperson, hon President Thabo Mbeki, hon MECs present here today, Premiers and Speakers; on behalf of the Western Cape government, we would like to express our gratitude and thanks to the NCOP, the Chairperson, his deputy as well as the members and delegates for taking time out here in the Western Cape.

You should have seen and learned, firsthand, of the experiences that our people are faced with in their diversity. Your visit to our province, particularly to farming, the agricultural sector and the community itself, demonstrates to us as government that not only is government making statements about the quest to change the lives of our people, but it is actually about walking the talk. The NCOP visit to our province continues to cement the constitutional provision of co-operative governance. It is sad that other municipalities refused to participate here during your visit to our province.

Chairperson and hon members, the Western Cape Province has taken many strides in an effort to build the Western Cape, which is a home for all that also encompasses all sectors of our society without prejudice. When Premier Rasool was addressing the opening of the legislature in February this year, he delegated to us many deliverables, starting with changing the lives of our people in the province. These deliverables that have been delegated to us are those that are in fact going to enhance the vision of a home for all.

Let me briefly sketch how we have come to where we are now and what the challenges are that we are faced with. The Western Cape is the province that still laments the impact and the legacy of apartheid, which has not only left behind the deep economic disparities but also the challenges faced by the social fabric in this province. The challenges that we face are therefore not only economic disparities but they include a host of social anomalies that sometimes hamper the economic prospects of our people.

Even if there are opportunities at the disposal of our people, sometimes they will not have the social tools to reclaim their dignity in order to truly make the province a home for all. Therefore, our challenge as government is not only about economic redistribution and reparation. Our challenge is also about redressing the distorted social relations. It is about restoring dignity and self-respect; it is about freeing the minds of people from a sense of mental slavery. It is about empowering our community of farmworkers who are still exploited at the periphery and often suffer in silence. It is about giving hope; healing acts of delivery. It is ultimately about making the province a home for all.

We have geared ourselves towards a coherent and focused strategic plan in overcoming inequalities and dysfunctionalities. We have seen population growth in the region of 5 million. The increase in temporary migrations for access to services and opportunities means that the burden on the province to cater for the needs of temporary migrations also increases. This also influences our broad unemployment levels in the province, which stand at an average of 26%, with the recording of 590 000 unemployed people in 2005.

Statistics also indicate that those who are hardest hit by unemployment are the youth between the ages of 15-24, at a figure of 49% for 2004-2005. The issue of skills mismatch also affected the employability of our people, which is exacerbated by the marginalisation of black youth and women - thus entrenching the levels of inequality.

Our economy is also increasing services which are sector-oriented, which has seen a decline in our primary sector such as agriculture and fishing. The skills mismatch is also exacerbated by this shift. The growth and development priority sectors remained the PVO call centre, oil and gas services, including boat-building, ship repair, tourism, agriculture, fishing, and the creative industry and ICT. These are the sectors which create jobs for our people and are cultivated actively by the provincial government of the Western Cape.

The call centre industry is a success story - one of the fastest growing sectors creating jobs for school-leavers. It is therefore clear that we are dealing with a multiplicity of challenges that require intricate intervention that will take cognisance of unique challenges and the growth imperative for our province.

The provincial government of the Western Cape remains committed to eradicating pathologies of economic and social orientation in our province. We have enhanced and prioritised social services delivery in order to immediately alleviate the symptoms of poverty that cause depressions and disparities.

The Department of Health has 13 million patient contacts per annum on HIV/Aids, of which 24 449 people are on the programme. We are also the lowest in infant mortality in the province. At municipal level we have 90,7% access to basic water and 89% access to weekly waste removal.

With regard to education, we have an enrolment rate of 85% of children aged 7 to 9 years, 89% between the ages of 10-12. About 39% of our learners are getting exemptions from school fees in 656 schools, while 65 000 are currently in childhood development.

In the social services we have a total of 791 000 people currently receiving grants in the Western Cape - 139 000 people are getting disability grants, 455 000 children receive Child Support Grants. This shows our commitment to serve in the context of a developmental state.

The state of the province in 2007 identifies 11 priorities - human settlement, climate change, drugs and gangs, focusing on 15 areas, Project Consolidate, transport, World Cup 2010, property development, the Expanded Public Works Programme, home for all, the second economy and governance. We remain on track towards working on the development of these areas that I have mentioned above.

The social transformation programme focuses on 21 most vulnerable communities in our province, one of the most critical and meaningful ways in which we are turning around the lives of the poor people of the dysfunctional communities in our province through this programme. The rationale for the social transformation programme is informed by the housing shortage, service delivery backlog, zone of poverty, prevalence of gangsterism, substance abuse, violent conduct, crime and 109 vulnerable schools.

We want to bring about organisational coherence through the establishment of the intermediary structure that will voice the coherence in these communities. We have made an investment of R1 billion in policing to strengthen the fight against crime and we have put rehabilitation structures in place that are currently accessible to our people. We hope to achieve the social cohesion outcomes that we are driving in our communities through the reduction of contact crimes and substance abuse, participatory democracy, infrastructure development and service delivery.

Our social partners have pledged the commitment of business and voted money into this. We want to say, Mr President and Chairperson, that Absa has come forward in this process with R750 000 to the expected human resource to become available to the structures and to set up the intermediate structure and more resources are awaited. The social transformation programme is proof of how the PGDS comes into our lives in taking a holistic approach towards community development, both economic and social.

I want to say that the Western Cape has become very prominent in the world. We have seen an upsurge in investor confidence in the country and in the province as a result of your leadership, Mr President.

The province is well underway with preparations for 2010. Work streams are hard at work focusing on the long-term legacy of our people. The interest in the province is currently very high and it continues to bring this beautiful province and the country as a whole to the attention of the world.

Last but not least, we thank the NCOP for being the vehicle for service delivery by having helped us to identify some of the most vulnerable families in our province. I am also making this particular reference to the family of Worcester who have special needs and who have no mobility. Lack of mobility has hampered them moving around. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Due to time constraints, I request that the hon members on the speakers’ list should take up their positions on the stage while the speaker before them is addressing the House.

Mr A WATSON: Your Excellency, the President, hon Chairperson, hon Deputy Chairperson … agb lede, ander hooggeplaastes, dames en here, goeiemôre. [… hon members, other dignitaries, ladies and gentlemen, good morning.] Molweni apha eKapa, ezantsi [Greetings to you all here in the Cape, in the south].

Die lede van die NRVP is daaraan gewoond dat ek graag groet met die tale van ons land … [The members of the NCOP are used to it that I greet them in all the languages of our country.]

… ngoba emaXhoseni ndithetha isiXhosa, kumaZulu ngikhuluma isiZulu, basothong ke bua Sesotho, le Setswana, nesiSwati, nesiNdebele le ka Sepedi [… because amongst the amaXhosa I speak isiXhosa, and amongst amaZulu people I speak isiZulu, and the same applies when I am amongst the Basotho, Batswana, amaSwazi, amaNdebele and Bapedi.]

Hier, in die Boland, is ons in Afrikaanse wêreld en daarom gaan ek u, agb President, vandag in Afrikaans toespreek. Kan ek net begin deur die Voorsitter te bedank dat hy ook eer gebring het aan die boere van ons land wat hulle werkers goed behandel, want die Adjunkminister van Landbou het gister in die Parlement erken dat maar net 2% van die boere hulle werkers sleg behandel. Ek sê weer dankie vir dié wat mooi kyk na hulle mense.

Die tema vir vandag is die verdieping of verbreding van die debat oor transformasie vir ’n beter lewe vir almal, maar dit is eintlik ’n skande, agb President, dat ons na meer as 13 jaar van demokrasie nog praat van “deepening the debate”. Die tyd vir debat is mos nou lankal verby. Ons moes vandag kon praat van die baie suksesse van ’n beter lewe vir almal, maar helaas. Die kinders wat sedert 1994 in skole geleer het van ons nuwe demokrasie is nou al uit die skool, maar die meeste van hulle kom nog uit pondokkies van agtergeblewe gebiede en feitlik almal soek werk. [tussenwerpsels.]

Ja, ek het gedink iemand gaan dit sê. Daar is ’n groot skroef los, maar daar sê die agb lid dit weer. Dit is my mense en die vorige regering wat verantwoordelik is en ja, dit is waar. Dit is waar. Natuurlik was apartheid ’n verfoeilike fout en ons is almal bitter jammer daaroor, maar u regering kan nie vir ewig die verlede blameer nie. Dinge moet verander, mevrou. Dinge moet regkom, agb President. Ons is nie in opposisie om apartheid terug te wens of te verdedig nie. Inteendeel, die DA se uitgesproke strewe is ’n beter lewe vir al die mense deur die daarstelling van ’n oop geleentheid samelewing waarin elkeen tot sy of haar reg kan kom. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Here in the Boland, we are in an Afrikaans environment and therefore, hon President, I wish to address you in Afrikaans today. Could I just start by thanking our hon Chairperson for honouring the farmers who do treat their farmworkers well, especially since the Deputy Minister for Agriculture acknowledged in Parliament yesterday that only 2% of farmers ill-treat their workers. Once again, I want to thank those people who look after their workers.

The theme for today is the deepening of the debate on transformation for a better life for all, but it is actually a shame, hon President, that after more than 13 years of democracy, we still have to talk about “deepening the debate”. There is no longer time for debating. We need to talk about the successes of a better life for all today, but, alas. The children who have been taught in schools since 1994 about our new democracy have since left school, but most of them are still coming from shacks in the disadvantaged areas and nearly all of them are looking for jobs. [Interjections.)

Yes, I knew someone was going to say that. There is something terribly wrong, but the member just said it again. It is supposed to be my people and the previous government who are responsible, and yes, it is true. It is true. Apartheid was indeed a terrible mistake and we are all terribly saddened by it but your government cannot continue to blame the past forever. Things need to change, Madam Chair. Things need to improve, Mr President. We are not in the opposition to wish for the return of apartheid or to defend it. On the contrary, the DA’s ultimate goal is to strive for a better life for all people by creating an open opportunity society in which every one can come into his or her own right.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order!

Mr A WATSON: Dit beteken – ja, julle kan maar boe – dat bekwame en bedrewe lede van ons samelewing die geleentheid moet hê om verandering te dryf en dit beteken ongelukkig ook … [It implies – yes, you can boo me as much as you like – that competent and proficient members of our society need to be given the opportunity to drive this change but unfortunately, it also means …]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): I would like to plead with the audience not to boo in the House. This is a formal sitting of the National Council of Provinces. Please listen and do not boo.

Mr A WATSON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Ek het gesê dit beteken dat bekwame en bedrewe lede van die samelewing die geleentheid moet hê om verandering te dryf en dit beteken ongelukkig ook dat die tyd vir beloning aan onbekwame, korrupte comrades nou werklik tot ’n end moet kom.

Tydens die vorige besoek van ons NRVP aan Gauteng, in die debat van die Adjunkpresident op 16 Maart 2007, het ek verwys na die onbekwame leierskap in die Mbombela-munisipaliteit in my kiesafdeling en die insident die vorige week waar die burgemeester deur die raadslede verwerp is in ’n mosie van wantroue om net weer die volgende dag in ere herstel te word deur die leierskap van die ANC buite die raad. Die LUK vir Plaaslike Regering van my provinsie, Mpumalanga, het in hierdie selfde debat gesê dat sy reeds opdrag gegee het in terme van artikel 106 van die Wet op Plaaslike Regering: Munisipale Strukture om op te tree.

Ons voorsitter het beaam dat hy reeds op 23 Februarie ’n skrywe ontvang het van Mpumalanga en die saak deurgegee het na ons gekose komitee. Ek het die aangeleenthede sedertdien verskeie kere opgeneem met die agb Mahlangu en selfs insig gehad in briewe wat hy geskryf het omtrent die saak aan ons provinsie. Tot vandag, bykans ’n jaar later, agb President, is nog net mooi niks aan die saak gedoen nie - nie in die provinsie nie en ook nie in die gekose komitee nie.

Intussen het die DA in Mbombela vasgestel dat dieselfde uitvoerende burgemeester se raad gedurende die afgelope twee jaar … (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[I have said that this implies that competent and proficient members of society should be given the opportunity to drive change and unfortunately this means that the time for rewarding incompetent, corrupt comrades needs to come to an end.

During the previous visit of the NCOP to Gauteng and in the debate of the Deputy President on 16 March 2007, I referred to the incompetent leadership in the Mbombela Municipality in my constituency and, in particular, to the incident the week before where the mayor was rejected during a motion of no confidence by the councillors, only to be reinstated the following day by the leadership of the ANC outside of the council. The MEC for local government in my province, Mpumalanga, said in the same debate that she had already given orders in terms of section 106 of the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act, to act in that regard.

Our Chairperson did acknowledge that he had received a letter from Mpumalanga on 23 February and he passed it on to the select committee. I have raised the matter several times since then with the hon Mahlangu and I have even had insight into letters that he had written to the province regarding this issue. Up till today, nearly a year later, hon President, nothing has been done about the matter – not in the province and not in the select committee.

In the meantime, the DA in Mbombela has learned that the council of the same executive mayor had, for the past two years …]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Order, please, hon Watson!

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Chairperson, I would like to ask the member a question.

Mr A WATSON: Nee! Jy mors my tyd, man. Sit, jy mors my tyd. [No, you are wasting my time, man. Sit down. You are wasting my time.]

An HON MEMBER: Jy is bang! [You are scared!]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Hon Watson, you may continue.

Mr A WATSON: Ek sê, geagte toehoorders, dat die DA in Mbombela, dieselfde munisipaliteit, vasgestel het dat daardie selfde raad van dieselfde burgemeester die afgelope twee jaar amper 300 besluite geneem het. [I am saying, hon audience, that the DA in the Mbombela Municipality has learned that the council of that same mayor had taken nearly 300 resolutions over the past two years.] They took more than 200 resolutions.

Nog nie een van daardie resolusies is uitgevoer nie. Dis mos ’n skande, agb President – ’n skande wat skrei ten hemele.

Die 2010 voetbalstadion in Mbombela, waarop ons almal so trots is in Mpumalanga en wat lank voor die geskeduleerde tyd voltooi sou wees, is nou ook in gedrang omdat ’n onwettige grondtransaksie deur dieselfde raad geneem is. Pleks van die probleem oplos, soek hulle nou mense om te blameer vir die saak.

Is dit die debat oor transformasie wat ons moet verdiep of moet ons liewer dieper kyk, agb President, na die kern van die probleem wat besig is om die moontlikheid van dienslewering in baie dele van ons land te verongeluk? Ek sê vir u daar is korttermynoplossings, maar die langtermynoplossing is, stem vir die DA. Dankie. [Tyd verstreke.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[None of those resolutions has been executed. It is indeed a shame, hon President – a shame that shouts to the heavens above.

The 2010 soccer stadium in Mbombela, of which everyone in Mpumalanga is so proud and which would have been completed far ahead of the scheduled time, is now also in jeopardy since the same council had bought land illegally. Instead of solving the problem, they are now trying to find someone to blame. Is it the debate on transformation that we need to deepen or do we need to look deeper, hon President, to the core of the problem that is jeopardising the possibility of service delivery in many parts of our country. There are short-term solutions but the long-term solution is to vote for the DA. Thank you. [Time expired.]]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Order! Order! Order!

Ek versoek dus die gemeenskappe wat hier teenwoordig is om asseblief nie so te raas en aan te gaan nie. Dit is ’n volwaardige sitting van die NRVP en u mag nie deelneem in die debat nie, asseblief. [I request the members of the community present here to please be quiet and behave. This is a formal sitting of the NCOP and you are not allowed to participate in the debate.]

Nksz N D NTWANAMBI: Sekela sihlalo, iiNkulumbuso ezilapha, ooSodolophu, ooCeba abakhoyo, amalungu abekekileyo, amaqabane, kunye noMongameli welizwe lethu, into ebalulekileyo, emandiqale nemandingagqibeli ngayo yeyokuba inyaniso iyakrakra ingakumbi kwabo baxhaphe amafutha okucinezela abantu bakuthi. Kukho abantu abanjengeli lungu lisuka apha, abangoofunzeweni, nabangenazo iinjongo zokuwakha loo Mzantsi Afrika. Abo banjalo abangoobantu abamelwe kukuba bangaMalungu ePalamente.

Enye into ke asizanga nkomfeni yaANC okanye yaDA apha namhlanje, kodwa size ngeenjongo zokuxoxa, sincedise ukusombulula iingxaki zabantu abahluphekayo. Ngaphezulu koko amalungu eNCOP abanexesha alinikikwayo, lokuya emaphondweni, nalapho sixoxa izinto zamaphondo ethu. Eli asiloxesha laloo nto.

Ndibuye ndithi, ewe njengoko uMongameli etshilo iingxaki zona zikhona, ingakumbi apha emaphandleni apho amakhosikazi amaninzi, nangabasebenzi baseziifama bahlala benexhala besithi, ‘oh nkosiyam ingaba asizikugxothwa na?’. Bayafana nje nabantu abangcuchalazayo. Basebenza ngaphezulu kwe-10 leminyaka kwezi fama, kodwa kwakufika ixesha lomhlala-phantsi labo nabayeni babo babuya bephethe ibhayisekile kuphela oku kwabantu ababuya ezimayini, besiya emakhaya.

Enye yezinto eziqaphelekayo kukuba abantu abangahlali zidolophini njengathi – ungayibona le nto xa unokusondela kwisininzi sabantu abalapha – baguga msinyane. Ndithetha ukuthi ke xa nditshoyo siyazidinga ezinye iindlela zokuba abantu bakwazi ukuzonwabisa ngaphandle kotywala.

Kwaye, kwakhona loo nto ibiza kubenza ukuba bathi naxa sele lifikile ixesha lenkamnkam noko ifike besebatsha nabo bengekagugi. Enye yezinto ezibalulekileyo, nekufuneka ukuba ijongisiswe kukuba intlupheko inendima enkulu eyidlalayo ekugugiseni abantu bakuthi. Kwakhona ke njengokuba siseBholani enye into ebalulekileyo kukuba indima edlalwa butywala isafuna ukuqwalaselwa, ngoba bakhona abaqashi abasabhatala abantu ngethontsi lotywala. Ziyafuna ukujongisiswa izinto ezinjalo.

Enye ke into esiyiphawulayo xa sizileyo apha kukuba abantu abanzinzi abasebenza kwezi fama kunye nabantwana babo bathi bazalelwe apha, ngoko ke ibiza kuba yinto entle kumafama ukuba ebengafundisa abantwana babasebenzi ngezolimo, nokuveliswa kwezinto eziphuma kwiziqhamo ezo zezolimo zalapha.

Mongameli, ndifuna ukuthi njengoko sisoloko sisithi akukho zakhono- ndifuna ukuba ndibenguzungula ichele, ndiyikhumshe ke le nto ndithi … let me be opportunistic and use this platform and say … - ibiyakuba ntle into yokuba ukuqalela ngoku amafama akhoyo apha ebeza kusithatha isindululo sokuba kulo nyaka uzayo abantwana abaphumelele ibanga le-10 bathi xa besiya kumaziko emfundo ephakamileyo, basiwe beyokufunda ngezinto ezimalunga nokusebenza pha ezifama ukuze nabo ngenye imini babengamafama, babengabanini mhlaba. Ukuze sikwazi ukuthi xa sithetha sithi akuzi kuba mnandi nje ukuba kumfimfithwe amandla abazali baze athi njenge-olenji elingasenamanzi balahlwe, bakhatywe njengebhola.

Enye yezinto esiziqapheleyo yeyokuba apho kufuneka sincomile siza kuncoma ingakumbi kula mbutho uncedisana namakhosikazi esebenzayo apha ezifama. Ikhona into entle ke eyenziwe liSebe lezoBulungisa ngokuxhasa ngezimali, nokufundisa amakhosikazi aseziifama ngamalungelo awo. Wonke ummi nomhlali weloMzantsi Afrika unelungelo elilinganayo. Kwenziwa into entle ke xa kufundiswa abantu ngezo zinto.

Isikhalwana esikhoyo nje sesokuba apha ngaphandle kwedolophu zinqongophele iikliniki ngoko abantu abazisebenzisayo ixesha elininzi ngabazisebenzisela ugonyo nokunceda kwesi sifo sikhulu sofuba –TB, apha phandle. Bekungaba kuhle ke ukuba xa isibonelelo sokuba kubekho amaziko ezempilo okanye ii- health centres singaphunyezwa, mhlawumbi kwindawo ethile apho kuza kubakho nekliniki engavaliyo. Ezo zezinye zezikhalazo esidibene nazo.

Uninzi lwabantu luyakungqinela Mongameli, nabo bathi, unamhlanje akafani nayizolo kwaye ungomso uza kuba ngcono kakhulu. Bakhona abakhoyo, nasele bexhamla kule nkululeko, kodwa sifuna ukuba wonke uMzantsi Afrika ekugqibeleni uxhamle, kwaye wonke ubani angaxhomekeki kwinkongozelo karhulumente. Abantu mabakwazi ukuzenzela ngokwabo. Amathuba anjalo ayanqaba emaphandleni.

Mandigqibele ke ngelithi abantu balapha eBholani bayavuya, kwaye bachulumancile namhlanje, ngoba sithetha ngepalamente yabantu, norhulumente wabantu. Ngenene bebelapha kwaye ipalamente ivile norhulumente uvile, kodwa ndiyafuna ukuthi enye yezo mpendulo uQabane uKholeka Mqulwana wenze ukuba ibe khona namhlanje, ingabi yeyale veki izayo. Yinto ekuthethwe ngayo ngoLwesibini namhlanje kungoLwesihlanu lo mpendulo sele ibuyile. Nto leyo ethetha ukuba kuyamanyelwa. Enkosi. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[Ms N D NTWANAMBI: Deputy Chair, Premiers present here, mayors, councillors present, hon members, comrades, together with the President of our country, one important thing that I should start with is that the truth is a bitter pill to swallow, especially to those who are guilty of oppressing our people. There are people like the hon member who was speaking here who do not care and also do not have any intention of building this country, South Africa. People like that are not supposed to be Members of Parliament.

Anyway, we are not in an ANC or DA conference here today, but we are here with the aim of debating and helping to solve the problems of poor people. Furthermore, members of the NCOP do get time to go to the provinces where we debate our provincial issues. This is not the time for that.

Again, let me say that, as the President has said, there are problems, especially here in the rural areas, where most women who are farmworkers are always worried and thinking: “Oh my goodness, are we not going to be chased away.” They are just like refugees. They work for more than 10 years in these farms, but when the time comes for their and their husbands’ retirement they only get bicycles, just like mineworkers when they go home.

One other thing that I have observed is that people who do not live in urban areas – you can see that from the majority of people here – age much quicker. By that I mean that we need other forms of entertainment that do not involve the drinking of liquor.

Furthermore, having these other options of entertainment would mean that when people reach pensionable age, they will still be in good health. It is also worth mentioning that poverty plays a big role in speeding up the ageing process amongst our people. As we are holding this session in the Boland, it is important that we highlight the negative role of alcohol in society, particularly given that there are still farmers who use the “tot system” to remunerate their farmworkers. Such things need to be considered carefully.

We also observe that many farmworkers and their children were born on the farms, and therefore it would be a good thing if the farmers could teach farmworkers’ children farming skills and how to make fruit products.

President, as we always bemoan the lack of skills in our country, … let me be opportunistic and use this platform and say … that it would be a good thing if, from now on, farmers were to heed the call that from next year learners from farms, that pass matric, should be sent to higher education institutions to be taught subjects related to farming, to prepare them to be farm owners and landowners in future. It’s unacceptable that the parents of these children are discarded when they have outlived their usefulness, like an orange with its juice sucked out, which is kicked around like a ball.

We will give praise where praise is due, particularly to the organisation working with women farmworkers. The Department of Justice did a great job by providing funding and educating women farmworkers about their rights. Every citizen and resident of South Africa has equal rights. It is good that people should be educated about such things.

The minor concern we have is that there are very few clinics in rural areas and that even those that are there are mainly used for vaccinations and fighting TB. It would be great if health centres could be provided, maybe in certain areas where there could be clinics that are open 24 hours a day. Those are some of the concerns that were brought to our attention.

Many people agree with you, President, that today is better than yesterday and that tomorrow will be better than today. There are those that are reaping the fruits of our liberty already, but, at the end of the day, we want the whole of South Africa to benefit and for everyone not to depend on government charity. People must learn to do things for themselves. However, such opportunities are scarce in the rural areas.

Let me conclude by saying that people from the Boland are happy, because we are talking about a people’s Parliament and the government of the people. Parliament and government have taken note of their concerns and Comrade Kholeka Mqulwana was able to address some of those concerns immediately, without having to wait for next week. A concern that was raised on Tuesday has already been addressed by Friday, which means that people are listened to. I thank you. [Applause.]]

The PREMIER OF GAUTENG (Mr M Shilowa): Madam Chairperson, hon President of the Republic, hon Premiers, hon MECs, hon members, the input by hon Watson, contrary to what he said, confirms the need for deepening the debate on transformation for a better life for all. His input shows that unless we have an open debate on what we understand by transformation in our country, to what extent we have been successful in transforming the economy to ensure that there is social development and that we have the capacity as a state, all we do will be merely to postulate.

I think, hon President, it was correct that the NCOP, through you, asked all of us to continually debate the issues of transformation because we want, firstly, to be able to say that this new democratic South Africa has a history, a history that shows that for many years, until 1994, there was a government whose economic policies, whose social development policies and whose governance policies were not geared towards serving the majority of our people. [Applause.] We want, through that debate on transformation, to show that while 13 years have not been a long enough period to have made changes, we have been able to make strides in the economy which for many years was not growing and is now growing and creating jobs; that we are able to deal with issues of poverty; that workers now have rights that are enshrined in the Labour Relations Act, Mine Health and Safety Act, Basic Conditions of Employment Act and health and safety in general; that many people who had no shelter now have shelter; that many people who had no water now have water and that many people who had no electricity now have electricity.

Deepening the debate on transformation, as you correctly said, is also about us being the first ones to acknowledge that while the economy is growing and while we are creating jobs, we are not creating sufficient jobs to be able to absorb many young people who are coming out of schools and many other people who are being retrenched, and that means we must deal with those particular issues.

Deepening the debate on transformation means that we need to accept that in terms of our education, we must be able to improve its quality. I think we have dealt enough with issues of access to education and to health, but at least we need to be in a position to say what the quality of that education is; what the quality of public health is and how we can improve them for our own people.

Hon Watson needs to understand that when we want to debate issues of health, we are correct in saying that before 1994, many of our areas had no clinics; that now we do have more clinics; that many of our clinics opened for limited hours and now they open for longer hours; that before 1994 many of our clinics did not have the requisite medicine but now, even though we have this, we still need to be able to have further debates on these issues.

As we discuss these issues, hon President, I would briefly want us also to focus on the following three issues: Firstly, in terms of social development, how we ensure that targeted social development moves beyond talking about poverty in Gauteng and saying that, in this area of Gauteng, these are the number of people who are poor. How do they live? How do they survive? Are there skills? What is it that we can do to try and move these people out of poverty so that over a particular period, whether it be 12 or 18 months, we have been able to track those people, and we can, with confidence, say we are making changes?

Secondly, I think to be able to deal with issues in a number of provinces, including Gauteng, the Western Cape and KwaZulu-Natal, we should ascertain how we should deal with issues of rapid urbanisation, issues of immigration, not in a manner that says there should be no urbanisation, there should be no migration, but that says how we should manage this migration because, for instance, we benefit as Gauteng on issues of migration while other provinces may suffer on those particular issues.

So, migration does have its own benefits. In some areas when you advertise a post in government it takes longer to get people because they are prepared to go to the Western Cape, KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng. How do we deal with these matters because we want both rural and urban development to go side by side?

Lastly, we should be able, in addition to the twinning that we normally have with provinces, to look at sharing experiences amongst ourselves as provinces. For example, hon President, in Gauteng we have agreed that the three metropolitan areas must each twin with three districts. So, we have twinned the Johannesburg Metropolitan Council with the West Rand District Municipality, the Tshwane Metropolitan Council with Metsweding District Municipality and the Ekurhuleni Metropolitan Council with the Sedibeng District Municipality. The idea is that we do not want Johannesburg to develop on its own. We want it to be able to develop with the rest of those metropolitises.

So, as I sit down, hon President, I want to once more say that our approach to the need for debate is not merely to pontificate but to say how we reach national consensus on progress made so that when we say the economy is growing, anyone who says it is not growing must be able to show us the facts; when we say we are making inroads into poverty, anyone who says we are not making inroads must be able to show us the facts; when we say social development is moving away from social welfare to the total development of our people, anyone who holds the contrary view must be able to show us the facts. Unless they are able to do so, they must not therefore raise those kinds of issues.

But equally, on our side, we want to be able to say we are not merely making political statements about changes that are happening, that this is backed by people on the ground who at any point will be the first ones to acknowledge that while some of them still live in poverty, are still unemployed, do not have water, electricity and sanitation, that indeed they have seen changes happening in a number of areas, that if change happens in one area in Soweto it means change will happen in another area in Alexandra the following day.

Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson.

Cllr C JOHNSON (Salga): Chairperson of the NCOP, Deputy Chairperson, President Mbeki, Cabinet Ministers, Premiers, MECs, members of the different legislatures, mayors and councillors, on behalf of the national leadership and in particular Mayor Masondo, the Chairperson of Salga, the SA Local Government Association, I convey comradely greetings and our gratitude for the opportunity to share some thoughts at this sitting of Parliament.

We would like to express our sincerest gratitude to the Chairperson of the NCOP and his very competent team for putting together a truly excellent event here in Pniel. Incidentally, the meaning of Pniel is “face of God”.

We are also reminded that 200 years ago slaves were freed and settled in this village. Furthermore, a few years ago, not very far from here, former President Mandela walked to freedom from the Victor Verster prison. [Applause.]

Yes, we have to deepen the debate, but also note that we are an area with the highest incidence of farm evictions - 350 in total. If people say to us: “We have become refugees in the land of our birth, sitting on the roadside”, then we as government, need to act and need to act swiftly.

We are particularly grateful to the Chairperson of the NCOP for having taken the time to personally visit and invite Salga to participate actively in all aspects of this truly remarkable programme. This increases oversight by Parliament at the local level and, in our view, contributes to the ongoing battle to sharpen and sophisticate intergovernmental relations and co-operation.

However, I want to remind you of the fact that the DA coalition in Stellenbosch has scant regard for democratic institutions, as can be seen from the fact that the mayor was not present throughout the programme of Parliament - the highest law-making body in the land. This, I believe, is not good for intergovernmental relations.

During the past four days we have had the most intense conversation with our people. We have heard them express their gratitude at our government’s achievements; we have heard them express their dissatisfaction regarding some of the things we had thought of doing for them but could not; and we have also heard members of the public express great frustration with the slow pace of our programmes in some areas.

As we were the winning team a few weeks ago, it is now half time and time for us to assess our progress on the Millennium Development Goals.

In this area, access to water and sanitation to schools and clinics has been created. The bucket system was eradicated a year ahead of the target date of December 2007. In fact, studies on the National Spatial Developmental Perspective were also completed well in advance.

Firstly, in order for us to truly master service delivery challenges, it is important for us not to interact as different spheres of government, for in the eyes of our ordinary people there is only one government and that government starts in the ward at a micro level. We have all the macro instruments in place, but local government is closest to the people and this will be the first port of call for citizens. Through this interaction, we are ensuring that we create trust between government and the public to freely express opinions and share ideas on solving problems.

All the frustrations that have been brought to our attention have been addressed properly. I believe that as Salga we have taken up the seven tasks that the President has set us, including how we ensure that councillors are more accountable or are being made more accountable and how we ensure that we manage civil unrest in our townships, amongst others.

We gathered here as Salga in August to design an action plan for implementing the seven tasks that the President has set us. The change in government, especially the coalition government in the Western Cape, has led to certain delays in implementation, for instance, of the ward committee system, and the same is experienced in KwaZulu-Natal with a 62% turnover among councillors.

I believe that as Salga, we supported the programmes that have been put in place to address the capacity constraints, such as Project Consolidate, the training programmes offered through the University of Pretoria and the University of the Western Cape, as well as the Executive Leadership Municipal Development Programme for councillors and officials. Together with National Treasury, we are running a financial management course through Wits University, which will ensure that more councillors get unqualified audits and submit their financial statements on time.

With regard to corruption, we, as Salga, have implemented, to quote the President’s words:

… a local government anticorruption strategy with the necessary implementation plan to ensure that we achieve our objectives in this regard, focusing on prevention, detection and investigation.

I would like to further quote President Mbeki:

… we would like to warn those who think that our municipalities are some cash cows ready to be milked by greedy and corrupt councillors, businesspeople and officials, that the law will deal appropriately with them so that the resources intended for our communities are correctly utilised.

Importantly, with regard to the local government leadership, both politically and administratively, we must work hard in fighting the problem. Let us win the confidence of the public through open and transparent governance methods, and the call for a standing committee … [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Die ADJUNKVOORSITTER VAN DIE NRVP: Ek wil weer ’n beroep doen op die gemeenskap. Daar is ’n rumoer in die saal wat inmeng met die werksaamhede van die Raad. As u ruskamers toe moet gaan, doen dit net stilletjies asseblief. Baie dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Once again I wish to call on the members of the community. There is a lot of noise in the hall and it is interfering with the business of the Council. If you have to go to the restrooms, do so quietly. I thank you.]

The PREMIER OF NORTH WEST (Ms E Molewa): Thank you very much, hon Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP. I would like to recognise and greet the President of the Republic of SA, Mr Thabo Mbeki, all colleagues in the NCOP, Speakers, Premiers, all other members, honoured guests and all of you, ladies and gentlemen.

On behalf of the provincial government of the North West, I am honoured indeed to participate in this debate. Contrary to what Mr Watson has said, the President’s speech reminds us all of the massive progress that we have made over the last 13 years. At the same time, it calls upon all of us to be mindful of the huge task that remains before us. It is a challenge that we in the North West province embrace with all the enthusiasm at our disposal, and which we will pursue with every ounce of energy in us. And we would like to see the same contribution from the DA in particular, as opposed to the noise we hear all the time when we have these kinds of debates. [Applause.] Over the last 13 years we have been able to lay the foundation for a future that is qualitatively better than our ugly past.

I stand here before you saying that we are indeed satisfied that as a country and province – speaking on behalf of the North West province in particular - we have indeed done a lot during these past 13 years. As a result of our work in the past few years, we are today able to say boldly that despite the many challenges that remain, we are succeeding in bringing dignity to the majority of our people.

When we took over in 1994, the targets we set for ourselves and the objectives were to transform our society and make it a caring one. We have been able to ensure that amongst many other things, we actually, qualitatively, bring a better life to our people. We committed ourselves to working tirelessly towards the noble objective of eradicating the legacy of apartheid and colonialism in our country.

On this occasion, we must remind ourselves of the pledge we made during our struggle for liberation that we would not consider our mission complete and our freedom achieved, unless all our people are freed from poverty, disease, homelessness and indignity. Today we can reflect on the fruits of our work with a measure of pride.

The recent community survey results that the hon President referred to reiterate the story that we have been telling over the last few years, that we have in this government - acting together - made decisive advances over the past thirteen years in expanding access to a better life for all our people. In the North West province particularly, we continue to register good progress in our efforts to broaden access to basic services such as water, electricity and sanitation.

Amongst other things, the survey that the hon President spoke about tells us that the percentage of households using electricity for lighting in the North West province has increased from 43,3% in 1996 to a staggering 82,3% in 2007. [Applause.] This tells us that for many of our people, today is better than yesterday and tomorrow looks even brighter. On this day, we are therefore justified in saying that as a nation we have come a long way and that our efforts to build a better society have yielded good results.

Over the past few months, I want to say that as public representatives in the North West province, both the legislatures and those who are in the executive have travelled the length and breadth of our provinces, hearing and listening to our people through the izimbizo and participatory programmes of our legislature.

The people that we have listened to said that theirs was a story of pain that co-existed with remarkable hope and patience. What is most striking about them is their confidence in our democracy and their enduring hope that tomorrow would be better than today and yesterday. They cling so tenaciously to the hope that their human dignity will one day be restored and that today’s pain is steadily giving way to a brighter tomorrow.

Throughout these participatory programmes, people express appreciation for the progress made by government to improve their lives. This appreciation is expressed alongside concerns at the pace and quality of delivery. We listened to them and certainly responded to that. There is also recognition that while basic services have reached millions, there is still a lot more to be done.

During the first few years of the public participation programme, the most pressing issues for our people in the North West related to access to social services, particularly the social grants. Now as we speak, in those meetings, people are beginning to say that they have actually reached a saturation point. We are satisfied that most of the people are receiving the grants. They are now emphasising the need for us to look at the economic opportunities that concern the performance of our government’s officials. This is something that we are looking at.

This may mean that government has been able to adequately communicate the issues around social grants and to also improve grant payment systems. It may also mean that the President’s message of calling on all our people to be their own liberators has been taken to heart by them. They now want to seize opportunities brought by our democracy.

Perhaps at this point in time, we must reiterate our position that local government, as the sphere closest to the people, is the front desk of service delivery. Indeed, if local government fails, the whole of government will fail. This reality requires that local government must be adequately resourced to enable it to discharge the mandate and constitutional obligations more effectively.

For many rural municipalities, Mr President, with no revenue, or resource base, the task of building a better life for all our people may be very daunting or sometimes may even be impossible, unless the issue of resource allocation to local economic development is indeed placed firmly on the agenda. I speak here of municipalities like Lekwa Taemane and Naledi, amongst the ten that exist in our province. Part of the agenda to transform our economy must relate to programmes that seek to develop the economy of our rural communities so that all our people can achieve sustainable livelihoods. Consistent with the leadership provided by the President, we continue to pay particular attention to the economic empowerment of historically disadvantaged people. It is heartening to note the progress we are making in giving concrete expression to our commitment to empower those who have been historically excluded from the mainstream of our economy in particular. We have refocused our procurement strategies towards responding strategies directed at the challenges posed by the economic marginalisation of women, youth and people with disabilities.

We must constantly remind ourselves that the struggle for liberation was a struggle for the political and economic emancipation of all our people. Today, we must lead a struggle to unleash the full economic potential of our land, its people and resources. Let us continue to create opportunities for all our people so that they too can have the possibility of creating a better life for themselves and their fellow citizens.

Today, Mr President, we can say with confidence that out of the womb of an unjust and inhuman society that Mr Watson did not recognise at the time has emerged a new society that responds to the plight and aspirations of its people. However, we remain mindful that more work still needs to be done. We have acknowledged that and will continue to do so.

As the President said, we must therefore continue to intensify our efforts to ensure equal access to opportunities brought by democracy and freedom. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mnr M A MZIZI: Voorsitter en die agb President, dit is my voorreg om net dankie te sê dat ek ook kan deelneem aan hierdie debat. Soos die Voorsitter dit gestel het: Die NRVP is nie hier om net toesprake te maak nie, maar ook om te luister. Dit was ’n voorreg dat al die mense wat die debat gehoor het, al van Maandag hier was, en vir ons alles gesê het. Ons het kennis geneem. Dit is alles neergeskryf en, daarbenewens, gaan ons weer terugkom om te sien of alles wat julle hier gesê het op dowe ore geval het al dan nie. As ons dit herbevestig daardie dag … (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mr M A MZIZI: Chairperson and hon President, it is a privilege for me to thank you for allowing me to also participate in this debate. As the Chairperson said, the NCOP is not just here to make speeches but to listen as well. It was a privilege that all the people who have listened to this debate have been here since Monday and they have told us all that we need to know. We took cognisance of that. It has been written down and we will return to see whether what you have said fell on deaf ears. If we reaffirm it on that day …]

… nditsho ndithi ukuba anivanga ukuba kufuneka nincede abantu ukuze abantu bangakhalazi niza kudibana nenyoka iphunga umhluzi. [Kwahlekwa.] [… I am saying that if you did not understand that you must help the people so that they do not have to complain, there will be trouble. [Laughter.]]

Abantu bangakhalazi, iminyaka manje iyishumi nantathu ephelile abantu belokhu bekhalaza. Uma ngabe asikawenzi lowo msebenzi, nizohlangana nezimbila zithutha. [People must not complain. Eleven years have gone past but people are still complaining. If we have not done the work yet, we are in trouble.]

Voorsitter, daar word liedjies hier gesing wat sê dat dit geldmors en tydmors is as ons die Parlement na die mense toe neem. Dit is onsin, want elke mens het die reg om die Parlement by te woon en sy of haar sê te sê. In die ou bedeling het ons die parlement gehad; ons het die ministeries gehad; ons het al die mense op al die vlakke gehad. Het julle ooit gesien dat hulle na julle toe kom om julle toe te spreek? Ja, dis die waarheid.

Nou ja, daarbenewens ook, daar is ’n ministerie waarvan ek nou praat. Hy het sekere mense verteenwoordig. Wat het hy alles gedoen? Net die naam is verander. Hy het die naturelle-sake verteenwoordig. Hy het die plurale en ontwikkelende mense verteenwoordig. Hy het die Bantoes verteenwoordig. Het hy ooit na daardie mense gegaan? Dis onsin om dit te sê as ons hierheen kom.

Ek dank die Voorsitter van die NRVP, sowel as die President, dat hy toelaat dat ons die Parlement na die mense neem. Elke slag as ek na verskillende provinsies gaan, behalwe KwaZulu-Natal, is daar mense wat sê hulle gaan IVP stem. Is dit nie wonderlik nie? Ek waardeer dit. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Chairperson, songs are sung here that say that taking Parliament to the people is a waste of money and a waste of time. This is utter nonsense because everyone has the right to come to parliament and to come and air his or her views. In the former dispensation we had a parliament; we had Ministeries; and we had people at all levels. Did you ever see them coming to you to speak to you? That is the truth.

Apart from that there was also one Ministry in particular. It represented only a certain group of people. What did that Ministry do? Only the name was changed. It represented so-called native affairs. It represented the plurals and the developing peoples. It represented the Bantu. Did they ever go to the people? It is nonsense to say that it is the case when we come to the people.

I want to thank the Chairperson of the NCOP, as well as the President, that they allow us to take Parliament to the people. Everytime that we go to the different provinces, apart from KwaZulu-Natal, people tell me that they are going to vote for the IFP. Isn’t that wonderful? I really appreciate that.] Manditsho kuni ndithi njengokuba iPalamente ibihleli apha … [Let me say that as Parliament was sitting here …]

Gijimani ngayo yonke imizila nibabikele, nithi nani magundane senodela nifile ngoba nilibonile iPhalamende lihleli nabantu lapha e Stellenbosch. [Go all out and shout that you have seen Parliament brought to the people here in Stellenbosch.]

Mhlalingaphambili, ixesha lam lincinci, mandithi amade ngawetyala. [Chairperson, my time is limited. I will stop here].

The PREMIER OF MPUMALANGA (Mr T S P Makwetla): Thank you, hon Deputy Chairperson, for the opportunity. Hon President, the Chairperson of the NCOP, hon members of the House, both the permanent delegates and the special delegates, dear colleagues, hon member Watson, let me disclose, is a member of the NCOP from my province. As you will all agree, he is no doubt a very passionate and energetic public representative.

My concern, however, is that I am never sure whether he knows where he is going. At all times or most of the time, he evinces very strong and powerful emotions which I cannot but, at the end of his input, feel are actually valuable emotions squandered because he simply has no clue of what the forest looks like because he is deep in the woods. He is deep in the woods and he has no clue of what the forest looks like and he also does not know exactly whereabout in the forest he is. [Applause.]

I was alerted almost towards the middle of your speech, hon member Watson, that you were talking about me. When I jumped up for my listening device, half of the things you said I had unfortunately missed, but I will go to the Hansard to familiarise myself with the problems you were raising.

Let me say that it is important, however, for me to say this: Hon member Watson must make an effort to be a good public representative nevertheless. I am saying “a good public representative” because I cannot but make the point that it appears that the accuracy or the quality of information he functions or operates with do not justify the weaknesses that he is displaying because he cannot deal with problems as if he is an ordinary citizen because, as a member, he has access to information. Where he does not have sufficient information, he can put questions to the executive through his party colleagues in the province and in this Chamber as well, so that he can then form opinions and judgments on the basis of quality information.

However, it looks like that is something that he must still address because from the things I was able to pick up, there are clear inaccuracies. It cannot be true that the Mbombela Stadium that is being built for the 2010 games in Mpumalanga is behind schedule. No, hon member Watson said, it should actually have been completed. I did not understand what he was actually saying … [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Order, please!

The PREMIER OF MPUMALANGA (Mr T S P Makwetla): The Mbombela Municipality, with respect to the building of the 2010 stadium, is one of the municipalities that are ahead of the deadline. [Applause.] Secondly, let me also say that I will also go and verify these facts as to whether it is true that the Mayor of Mbombela has taken 300 decisions that have not been implemented in a year. We all know that the local government elections were last year. Has he already taken 300 decisions within a year? I am going to verify that and establish what the problem is.

Allow me to say that it is always a pleasure and a privilege to participate in this debate periodically in the annual schedule of the NCOP business, which affords us the opportunity to bring to this national body our experiences as a province and to share our successes and failures with the rest of government, nationally, in our endeavour to realise a better life for all our people.

Speaking as Premier, after three intense years in office, I will not be shy if my tone sounds different from the first time I addressed this Council. Yes, I now know a few things more and probably in the spirit of what the President said in his address this morning, I should tell no lies and I should not claim easy victories.

My party, the ANC, is in government for a reason and a mission, which is to accelerate delivery, halve unemployment and slash the levels of poverty in our country by half by the year 2014. We have indeed registered commendable progress in this respect. We have created job opportunities directly as government in the province for over 50 000 citizens over the last three years. We have brought our performance in education close to the national average. We have rolled out more water and electricity infrastructure to communities which did not have access before. We have rehabilitated many peasant folks in the rural villages by engaging them in tilling the land for food security again. We have decisively tackled sub-standard and dehumanising sanitation conditions in our province. The list is endless. Nevertheless, with these advances, a lot must still be done to promote development in many of our communities.

With respect to our developmental challenges as a state, as provinces, we must prudently admit the limits of our constitutional design with regard to our economic mandate. This is important in order to avoid overstating our significance in the national economic equation and debate. I say this because I want to submit that the developmental state challenges we face as provinces are more organisational and political rather than in the realm of the economic debate. We all committed ourselves to accelerating delivery and therefore, by implication, developmental work.

What is the experience of the provinces in this endeavour, and Mpumalanga in this regard? What is theory and practice? What are the successes and what the failures? What are the contentious assumptions that we began our duties with?

The intervention by the Presidency to propose that all provinces must work out priorities for themselves in the context of the medium-term strategic goals was a much-welcomed development and in our province, it found resonance in our observations and thinking. The idea of prioritising catalytic projects and programmes to accelerate development is noble. We have zeroed in our province on the big five of Mpumalanga – our big five flagship projects: The Maputo Development Corridor, the Moloto Rail Development Corridor, Water for All, Heritage Greening Mpumalanga in the province, and tourism and accelerated development … [Time expired.] Thank you very much, Deputy Chairperson, for the opportunity. [Applause.]

Dr F J VAN HEERDEN: Madam Chair, I shall in my allocated three minutes tell the truth as it is. The President, apparently, must still sign the recent appointment of judges. One matter, however, impacts negatively on transformation in this regard. The President surely does not have the particulars of this matter. I am going to give it to him and I shall now proceed in Afrikaans. Pas ’n maand gelede was daar twee aansoekers vir die pos van Regter- president in die Vrystaatse afdeling van die Hoërhof. Een ’n wit persoon met 19 jaar diens in die hoërhof, asook ervaring in die appèlafdeling. Daar was ook ’n swart regter met sewe jaar ervaring in die hoërhof, ook met appèlhof ervaring.

Die wit regter het vir ’n paar jaar in die Transkei baie harde werk gedoen waar hy met swart regsgeleerdes baie nou saamgewerk het. Daarna was hy weer terug na die Vrystaat waar hy in talle sake opgetree het met assessore wat vrouens en swart persone ingesluit het. Hulle was sy assessore. Die swart regter, op sy eie weergawe, het nooit in sy sewe jaar bygedra om enige assessore – vrouens of swart mense – op die regbank saam met hom te neem nie. Op hierdie feite het die wit regter sonder twyfel veel meer tot transformasie op die regbank bygedra. Die swart regter was juis die resultaat gewees van transformasie. Hy was ideaal geplaas om soos sy eweknie vrouens en swart assessore te gebruik en hy het die geleentheid nooit gebruik nie.

Aan die ander kant is daar 11 afdelings van die hoërhof in Suid-Afrika met net een wit Regter-president wat tans aftree en nou het die regterlike dienskommissie ’n maand gelede hierdie swart regter as Regter-president aanbeveel in die Vrystaat. Die regterlike dienskommissie het blindelings en ondeurdag getransformeer met die duidelike boodskap dat as jy ’n wit Afrikanerman is, is jou kanse op bevordering nul. Dit gaan nie oor die kwalitiet van hierdie regters nie – ek ken hulle albei – albei is goeie regters, maar dit gaan verder. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[No more than a month ago, two persons applied for the post of Judge President of the Free State division of the High Court. One was a white person with 19 years service in the High Court, including experience of the Appeals Court. A black judge, with seven years experience of the High Court and Appeals Court experience also applied.

The white judge worked in the Transkei for a few years where he did sterling work. He worked in close contact with black legal minds. Thereafter he returned to the Free State where he appeared in many cases alongside assessors that included blacks and women. They were his assessors. The black judge, by his own account, has never in his seven years assisted in taking any assessors – female or black – on to the bench with him. Given these facts, the white judge has, without a doubt, contributed much more to the transformation of the bench. The black judge is already a product of transformation. He was ideally placed to make use of women and black assessors but he never made use of the opportunity.

On the other hand, there are 11 divisions of the High Court in South Africa and only one white Judge President who is currently in the process of retiring. A month ago the Judicial Service Commission recommended this black judge as Judge President of the Free State. The Judicial Service Commission has transformed blindly and in an ill-considered manner and has sent out a clear message that, if you are a white Afrikaner male, your chances of being promoted are zero.

This is not about the quality of these judges – I know them both – they are both good judges, but it goes further.]

The President must please tell the country whether transformation means that opportunities in the country are to the exclusion of certain people. We doubt whether that is the intention of the President. We, the FF Plus, believe the President when he says that South Africa belongs to all who live in it. We are also serious when we say that we believe the President, but please, Mr President, tell us what you really mean. Is that to the exclusion of certain people or does it also include other people? I thank you. [Applause.]

The ACTING PREMIER OF LIMPOPO (Dr A Motsoaledi): Chairperson, His Excellency the President of the Republic, Mr Thabo Mbeki, Chairperson of the NCOP, Premiers, fellow MECs, members of the NCOP, ladies and gentlemen, yes we have to debate transformation. We debate it precisely because we enjoy the fruits of transformation and we cannot leave it to chance because it cannot be wheeled in on the wheels of inevitability. It will emerge from discussions in this debate. We have to do it because we do not want to forget where we come from. Mr Watson is grey-haired, but he has already forgotten what South Africa used to look like only 13 years ago. If we stop the debate, what about the young children who were born after 1994? They will never know where we come from, and if we forget where we come from we can easily slip back into the old ways. We also have to debate it, Mr President, because unfortunately we still have many Mr Watsons. Despite the gains that democracy has brought us, we still have many of his ilk, where children in farm schools are still refused access because some farmers are still burning their schools or just moving the gate 5km away from where it originally was so that they get discouraged by the long distances.

We have to debate it, Mr President, because there are still mass evictions on the farms because of people who, like Mr Watson, believe the Constitution is there to protect them, but not their black brethren. We have to debate it, because Mrs Tshivula was buried nine months after she had died, because there are still people who believe that the Constitution protects them but not the rights of other people, even the dead.

We have to debate it, because in Limpopo many farmworkers, even children, are still being shot because they are mistaken for monkeys or donkeys. We have to debate it because there are still human beings who are thrown into the lions’ den, like in Biblical times.

Mr President, these are the reasons why we have to debate, but we are happy that very serious changes have taken place. Since you have challenged us to tell no lies and claim no easy victories, but to actually tell the situation as it is on the ground, we are happy, because the ANC is well known for that. We are not scared of issues. That is why we are able to change them.

At the opening of a school that was constructed in 1995 …

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Order, please!

The ACTING PREMIER OF LIMPOPO (Dr A Motsoaledi): … by the IDT, some people challenged me whether the new government will indeed build beautiful schools like the one that was built by the IDT.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Can I appeal to hon members to respect other members even if they are saying things that they do not like.

The ACTING PREMIER OF LIMPOPO (Dr A Motsoaledi): Thank you, Chairperson, I thought it was their manner of entering the debate. They just have to be guided in the proper way of debating with me.

I said to them that I am not overly worried about their concerns regarding the issue of school buildings, because I know the ANC government is definitely going to achieve that within the shortest possible space of time and we did so when you instructed us that you no longer want to see children under the trees. What I was worried about was whether we would be able to and how long it would take for us to reverse the arrested human development that took place over 50 years of Bantu education and apartheid, whether we would ever be able to achieve this.

In this case I want us to focus very seriously on education. Much has happened, Bantu education is being reversed but there are still many challenges and in this case we welcome the validation of the introduction of Grade R in our schools and the fact that the Cabinet took a decision that we must have at least one million Grade R learners, five-year olds in our schools. It will also afford them the opportunity to take advantage of the nutrition programme which is run so well in schools, but not necessarily as well in rural communities, because of logistics.

We need to redouble our efforts on the improvement of mathematics, science and technology because some of us are spending sleepless nights, and I need to tell this to Mr Watson, because one of the people he is descended from who died long ago, has left us with a legacy which is very difficult to eradicate. In February this year the hon Deputy President and the Minister of …

Mr A WATSON: The speaker is accusing me of protecting certain people. Will he name them please? He is misleading the House. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Hon Watson, you were not disturbed during your debate.

Mr A WATSON: I was! I was!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Therefore, just allow the hon member to continue. Please take your seat.

The ACTING PREMIER OF LIMPOPO (Dr A Motsoaledi): The hon Premier of Mpumalanga said we must furnish you with facts so that you will debate better next time. That is what I am trying to do.

Chairperson, I was about to tell him that when the hon Deputy President of the country and the Minister of Education launched Club 100 in February this year, consisting of schools in the Republic which can produce 100 learners who pass mathematics and science, only 13 schools qualified because of this legacy I am talking about. That is why I am saying we need to go to war on the issue of mathematics, science and technology in education. In Limpopo I have 1 600 vacancies for mathematics teachers and 1 300 vacancies for science teachers. We have searched far and wide and we could not get those teachers. Transformation in this regard is not negotiable and has to be debated very deeply.

We also need to eagerly work on mass literacy projects which I know the Cabinet is debating, because only when all citizens are able to read and write will they be able to deepen the debate on transformation. We think we need to prioritise education more than we have ever done before.

We need to enter this debate, because there are people in this country who believe that transformation is when all of us deliberately and systematically forget our cultures and switch to English as the overall language that must represent our dreams. This was a widespread belief in some of our schools where the Department of Education has to fight with parents about the need for their children to understand their own languages and culture because if we do not do so we will get lost.

Ms B L MATLHOAHELA: Hon Chairperson, hon President and all other protocols observed, today we are having a debate on transformation for a better life for all; so, Masijule Ngengxoxo Mzansi [Let us deepen the debate, South Africa.] A better life for all means a better life for all. By this the ID does not mean that nothing has been done. We acknowledge great progress since the previous regime, but then the emphasis is on “all”.

We have not yet reached the “all”. From the hearings this week it seems that we are still very far from the “all”. In reality there is still a bitter life out there for many South Africans. Issues of water, sanitation and housing, which are core issues for existence, should be prioritised. We hear of children being born under bridges. This borders on living the life of animals.

We have also heard about the 2% abuse of farmworkers by farmers. That 2% is 2% too many. The selection of leaders at local government level must be scrutinised in-depth to evaluate their motives for being leaders at this level of government, owing to the fact that this leadership is closest to the communities and service delivery is at the core there. With this I do not exempt the other spheres of government. The Constitution of this country should now come alive and be a reality for all South Africans and it should not remain only a script. I thank you. [Applause.]

Ms T XASA (Eastern Cape): Chairperson, our President, President Thabo Mbeki, the President of the Republic of South Africa, Premiers, MECs, Ministers, members of the NCOP, all our distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, it is indeed an honour for me to represent the Premier of the Eastern Cape and the people of the Eastern Cape on this important occasion.

As we continue on the quest to realise the vision of a better life for all and begin to wind down this term of democratic governance, we truly appreciate the opportunity being given to us by this House to reflect, share insights and indeed contribute to the deepening of the debate on transformation for a better life for all.

We continue to be diverted by our opponents whose policies have been rejected by the masses of our people, but as you have said, hon President, here we are not afraid to stand in front of our people, because we represent their aspirations and we speak the truth because we understand that the challenge before us has yet to be accomplished.

We are committed to ensuring that, even if it is by force, we will ensure that co-operative governance is achieved. South Africa is a unitary country that lives on its ideals for a democratic, non-sexist, nonracial and developmental society. This continues to guide us and we will not be destracted. For two consecutive years the Eastern Cape province has been rated by Markinor as the best performing province.

This is attested to by the robustness of our economy, the unwavering commitment of our government to serve our people better and the service delivery impact which is being felt by our people on the ground. Here we can point to some of our achievements where we have seen injections in terms of capital investment into the province that goes way beyond R4 billion that has been earmarked for our two Industrial Development Zones, IDZs. Our provincial industrial strategy has looked further into our areas of focus, targeting investments in other sectors of our economy such as agriprocessing, forestry, timber and tourism. We have also developed a provincial capex plan which seeks to address our planning and budgetary requirements for the provision of roads, rail, air, electrification and social infrastructure.

We conducted our own studies, looking into how we were doing in terms of areas of service delivery, and such studies have indicated that our basic household income has improved primarily through the uptake of social grants, and the levels of access to basic services have also improved significantly. Our access to health and education has also improved. And, as you pointed out, hon President, the community survey of 2007 continues to say to us that we are committed to assuring our masses that tomorrow will be better than today.

Of course our administration continues to be beset by systemic deficiencies, more aptly reflected by the recent audit outcomes indicating the qualifications of a number of our departments. In most instances, this situation is occasioned by an acute shortage of skills. We are, however, taking a number of steps to address this, including the development of strategically linked training programmes in order to improve the capacity of individuals within the Public Service as well as delivering a quality service.

Our government has resolved to exercise judicious stewardship of public resources, reflecting both rigour and restraint, aimed at eliminating wastage while increasing our capacity to spend on service delivery programmes. Our contribution to Asgisa is also on course; we have put a number of measures in place, including the cost of doing business in the province, reducing barriers to entry through targeting poor growth sectors, and reducing the cost and efficiency of logistics through the development of world-class logistics in the IDZs.

As part of our socioeconomic balancing within the province that is characterised mainly on the two-economies scale, we have targeted certain growth areas and we are also removing our regulatory barriers that we have detected, some of which include the environmental impact assessment obstacles, some red tape that has been identified through the growth and development summits that we have held in partnership with our municipalities.

We also take pride in having championed the poverty reduction strategy that was announced by the President in the state of the nation address in which 11 of our municipalities in distress are participating, and as such we are looking at how we can see our poor communities graduating from poverty.

In conclusion, Chairperson, I wish to take this opportunity to thank you, the members of the NCOP and the members of the National Assembly, for allowing the Eastern Cape to host the National Parliament. I hope that the people of the Western Cape have taken pride and interest in participating because this is where we can truly listen to and share with the people of South Africa. Thank you very much.

The PREMIER OF THE NORTHERN CAPE (Ms D Peters): President of the Republic of South Africa, Mr Thabo Mbeki, Chairperson and Deputy Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, Speakers, Premiers, members of the NCOP and provincial legislatures, distinguished guests …

… dames en here, gemeenskap van die Wes-Kaap, ek wil die geleentheid gebruik om die dapperheid van ons President, mnr Thabo Mbeki, vandag aan die wêreld bekend te stel en om aan die President te sê, daardie dag toe die Springbokke die Rugbywêreldbeker gewen het, was ons baie trots op u, meneer.

Om van Suid-Afrika af te gaan na Frankryk om die Wêreldbeker by die Engelse af te neem en terug te bring Suid-Afrika toe, dis net ’n dapper man wat dit kan doen. [Applous.] Ons President het die lande van die Noorde gewys dat die lande van die Suide dit ook kan doen. Ons is baie trots op u. [Applous.]

Weer eens wil ek baie dankie sê aan president Mbeki en u regering, vir dié oomblik wat u gebruik om met die mense te kom gesels. Ons weet sulke oomblikke het in die verlede nooit bestaan nie. Dit is ’n ware regering van die mense wat hierdie oomblike kan skep en ons is baie dankbaar daarvoor. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[… ladies and gentlemen, the community of the Western Cape, I want to take this opportunity to present the braveness of our President, Mr Thabo Mbeki, to the world today and to say to the President: That day when the Springboks won the Rugby World Cup, we were very proud of you, sir.

To go to France from South Africa to take the World Cup from the English and bring it back to South Africa, only a brave man can do that. [Applause.] Our President has shown the countries of the North that the countries of the South can also do it. We are very proud of you. [Applause.]

Once again, I want to say thank you very much, President Mbeki and your government, for this brief moment to come and talk to the people. We know that such moments never existed in the past. It is a true government of the people that can create these moments and we are very grateful for that.]

I want to start by saying that despite the 2006-07 South African survey indicating an increase in the income levels in the Northern Cape, significantly high levels of poverty and stubborn unemployment continue to haunt every aspect of our people’s daily lives. Poverty remains our number one enemy in the Northern Cape.

I want to take this opportunity to raise - in principle - on behalf of the people of the Northern Cape, the fact that the time has come for the province to get its fair and equitable share of the economic development of South Africa. We therefore call for industrial redress, or what is called industrial decentralisation.

Mr President, you and the Deputy President take heed of our pleas, but we need just a little bit more. The announcement by the Minister of Minerals and Energy on 30 May 2007 that, I quote:

The State Diamond Trader will initially open in Johannesburg but, with time, will move to Kimberley to make Kimberley the real diamond hub of South Africa.

… was the biggest economic victory that province achieved since 1994.

A legacy of more than 100 years of unjust and skewed economic activity was reversed by this announcement. The reality is that although the political will and support has been demonstrated by this announcement, it seems that the Northern Cape is now the victim of administrative delays. We are informed, and reliably so, Mr President, that some people and other role- players seem to want to delay or derail or sidetrack the implementation of this decision to bring, what you called on 16 November 2004 in Antwerp, “the sparkle back to Kimberley”. I again humbly call on you for support and direction.

Mr President, we want targeted implementation plans and dates, which are very essential for this sparkle to return to Kimberley in the interest of the people of the Northern Cape. The relocation of the State Diamond Trader, SDT, should go to its original and rightful home, which must become a reality. I want to say this is not a contest with Gauteng and a contest with the Premier of Gauteng.

Adding to that, it is necessary that the curse of a lack of resources that has been cast on the Kgalagadi region, through it being an apartheid government labour reserve, must be broken. On the maps of the Justice department, Kgalagadi still has labour reserve number one and labour reserve number two in the books of our government, 13 years down the line. Those things must be removed.

We have elevated, through your initiatives, Mr President, this Kgalagadi district to a rural node that must be elevated out of this resource curse, but it remains a labour-sending region. People work as labourers in their thousands on farms only to survive on a subsistence income. This is despite the fact that some of the highest deposits of iron ore and manganese are found in this mineral-rich region. The Northern Cape hosts the biggest exploitable good quality iron ore in South Africa at Sishen.

The reality is once again that the raw product leaves the Northern Cape without the necessary beneficiation taking place at the source of the mineral. We are saying the solution to this unacceptable scenario is that the Northern Cape must have a ferrous, iron ore or metal smelter. We have the ore, manganese and other ferrous metals. We have the water. You can call it sea, river or underground. We have the gas. The people of Namaqua will tell you, very soon they will be hearing the gas moving below them to Saldanha. I think it is important that they benefit from that gas that will be moving below them.

We are also saying, in the New Partnership for Africa’s Development initiative, we can benefit equally so from the coal of Botswana, but we also can benefit, because the Northern Cape is equally part of South Africa, from the coal in Mpumalanga. Also, offshore, a hundred kilometres from Namaqua, we have the Ibhubesi Gas Works and the Kudu Gas Field that we need to benefit from.

You were in Namibia yesterday and I think those types of engagements must benefit the people of the Northern Cape equally so. It is important that we work for the people of the Northern Cape equally, so that we work for the people of South Africa.

Mr President, the dimension stone of Namaqua is like the people of that region and we know you highly treasure those people. They are like real assets. The beneficiation of granite, marble and slate, the existence of a deep-sea harbour at Port Nolloth and a multimodal cargo hub in Upington linked to the revitalisation of the rail network via De Aar are just some of the economic activities that would add value to our people’s lives.

Ek wil hierdie oomblik gebruik om die mense van die Wes-Kaap weer eens te herinner dat dit, soos die President en hierdie regering sê, belangrik is dat ons altyd saam met mense werk, want die President het gesê ons moet die waarheid praat. Ons gaan almal kerk toe en ons glo almal dat, as ’n mens die waarheid praat, jy verlos gaan word en hemel toe sal gaan die dag wanneer jy sterf. [Applous.]

So ons sê, hierdie regering het van die begin af hard gewerk met die wette om die mense se lewens te verander, om ’n beter lewe vir almal te bou. Vandag het ons beleide wat gratis gesondheidsdienste vir kinders onder 6 jaar beskikbaar stel. Ons weet baie van ons mense, soos swanger vroue, het altyd swaar gekry om geld te kry sodat hulle by die klinieke kan gaan aanmeld. So ons sê dit is belangrik dat ons daardie goed kan onthou.

Kinders kry ’n bord kos by die skool. Baie van ons ouers kan nie lees en skryf nie, nie omdat hulle nie skool toe wou gaan nie, maar as gevolg van die beleide van die verlede het hulle ouers nie geld gehad om hulle skool toe te stuur nie. [Applous.] So ons sê dit is belangrik dat ons dit onthou sodat ons kan verstaan hoekom mense nou eers water en elektrisiteit in hulle huise kry; hoekom baie bruinmense en swartmense vandag nog in plakkershutte woon. Ons moet terugdink en onthou.

Dié regering het baie gedoen. Wat kon ons gedoen het met die geld wat ons die mense gee vir grondeise? Wat het met die mense se grond gebeur? Mense soos mnr Watson sal weet. Mense is verwyder van hulle grond om plek te maak vir mense soos mnr Watson. [Applous.]

So ons sê die vorige regering kon daardie geld gebruik het om meer dienste aan ons mense te verskaf. Ons sukkel om die apartheidskuld af te betaal. Wat kon ons nie gedoen het met daardie geld nie! Kom ons dink watter ander regering op hierdie kontinent gee sy mense gratis water, gratis huise, gratis kos vir skoolkinders en kindertoelaes? Alles gratis! Watter ander regering doen dit? [Tyd verstreke.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[I want to take this opportunity to remind the people of the Western Cape, once again, that it is, as the President and this government said, important that we always work with people, because the President has said we must tell the truth. We all go to church and we all believe that if you tell the truth, you will be saved and go to Heaven the day you die. [Applause.]

Therefore, we say this government has worked hard on the Acts from the beginning to change the people’s lives, to build a better life for all. Today we have policies that make free health services available to children under 6 years of age. We know many of our people, such as pregnant women, have always battled to get money to enable them to report to the clinics. Therefore, we say it is important that we should remember those things.

Children get a plate of food at school. Many of our parents cannot read and write, not because they did not want to go to school, but because of the policies of the past their parents did not have money to send them to school. [Applause.] Therefore, we say it is important that we remember that so that we can understand why people are only now getting water and electricity in their homes; why many brown and black people still live in shacks today. We must think back and remember.

This government has done a lot. What could we have done with the money we gave the people for the land claims? What happened to the people’s land? People like Mr Watson would know. People were removed from their land to make room for other people like Mr Watson. [Applause.]

Therefore, we say the previous government could have used that money to provide more services to our people. We have difficulty in paying off the debts of apartheid. What could we not have done with that money! Let us think which other government on this continent gives its people free water, free houses, free food for school children and child support grants? Everything free! What other government does that? [Time expired.] [Applause.]]

Mnr F ADAMS: Voorsitter, dit is ’n voorreg vandag en ’n geleentheid – ’n groot geleentheid vandag, Voorsitter – om ons nommer een Springbok in ons midde te hê, naamlik President Thabo Mbeki.

Voorsitter, wat ’n wonderlike voorreg en gesig was dit nie vir Suid-Afrika toe die President op die skouers van spelers sit met die Wêreldbeker omhoog. Watter gesig was dit nie, Voorsitter, om te sien dat ons President Suid-Afrika se President is nie. Ons President is ’n President vir die mense. Voorsitter, watter voorreg was dit nie en watter blydskap was dit nie om te sien dat die Wêreldbeker en sport mense verenig het; versoen hierdie nasie van Suid-Afrika versoen het.

Agb President, op u skouers rus ’n groot verantwoordelikheid. U moet die land lei; u moet leiding in Afrika gee; u moet u leierskap aan die wêreld betoon; en u doen dit baie goed - uitstekend soos ek dit sal sê of soos mense in Afrikaans dit sal sê. President, armoede moet verslaan word. HIV/Vigs moet verslaan word. Ons kinders moet skool toe gaan en leer. Daar is huise om te bou; water om aan te lê; paaie om neer te sit. President, moet u derhalwe nie steur aan die negatiewe mense in Suid-Afrika nie, want hulle, wil ek amper sê, is gebore om negatief te wees.

Daar is ’n spreekwoord – ’n idioom – wat sê leë blikke maak die grootste geraas en dit is wat die DA is: leë blikke. Voorsitter, ons het baie om te doen in Suid-Afrika. Die DA stel net nie belang in ons mense se toekoms en in ons mense se leefwyse nie, Voorsitter. Mev Helen Zille, die DA burgemeester en nasionale leier in die Stad Kaapstad, Voorsitter, het besluit dat sy en haar raadslede nie hier moet wees vir die hele week nie. Ek wil vandag noem alle DA-raadslede, Voorsitter, is vandag glad nie eens hier nie. Hulle is glad nie eens hier nie. Die burgemeester van Stellenbosch het hierdie Huis probeer mislei Maandag deur te sê dat sy sukkel om met die LUR te praat terwyl die LUR sê ek het jou al hoeveel keer genooi. [Applause.] Mev Zille het gesê dat sy nie geld wil uitgee om hier te wees nie en net so gee mev Zille ook nie geld uit om deernisbeleid toe te pas in haar munisipaliteit nie. Dit is die einste Stad Kaapstad wat mense se water afsny. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr F ADAMS: Chairperson, it is a privilege and an opportunity – a great opportunity today, Chairperson - to have our number one Springbok in our midst, namely President Thabo Mbeki.

Chairperson, what a wonderful privilege and sight it was for South Africa when the President sat on the shoulders of the Springboks holding the World Cup aloft. What a sight it was, Chairperson, to see that our President is South Africa’s President. Our President is a president for the people. Chairperson, what a privilege it was and what a joy it was to see that the World Cup and sport united the people – reconciled this nation of South Africa.

Hon President, on your shoulders rests a great responsibility. You must lead the country; you must provide leadership in Africa; you must show your leadership to the world; and you do it very well – excellently, as I would put it or people who are Afrikaans would put it. President, poverty must be defeated. HIV/Aids must be defeated. Our children must go to school and learn. There are houses to be built; water to be piped in; and roads to be laid out. President, I must therefore not disturb you with the negative people in South Africa, because they, I would like to say, are born to be negative.

There is a saying – an idiom – that empty vessels make the most noise and that is what the DA are, empty vessels. Chairperson, we have much to do in South Africa. The DA simply is not interested in the future of our people and in the lifestyle of our people, Chairperson. Mrs Helen Zille, the DA Mayor and national leader in the City of Cape Town, Chairperson, has decided that she and her councillors should not be here for the whole week. I want to mention today, Chairperson, that all the DA councillors are not here today. They are not here at all. The mayor of Stellenbosch tried to mislead this House on Monday by saying that she is struggling to talk to the MEC, while the MEC says, “I have invited you many times already.” [Applause.] Mrs Zille says that she does not want to spend the money to be here and in the same way Mrs Zille also does not spend money on the application of indigent policies in her municipality. This is the selfsame City of Cape Town that cuts off people’s water. [Applause.]]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Order! Hon Darryl Worth.

Mr D A WORTH: Chairperson, I would like to know if the hon Mr Adams is prepared to take a question on who wrote the speech for him? [Interjections.] Who wrote the speech for you?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Will you take a question, Mr Adams?

Mr F ADAMS: Chairperson, he has already asked the question and asked who wrote the speech for me.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, you can put your question.

Mr D A WORTH: Thank you, Chairperson. I would like to ask Mr Adams who wrote the speech for him? Who prepared the speech for him? [Interjections.]

Mr F ADAMS: Chairperson, in answer to the hon Worth: I wrote my own speech because in the ANC we are allowed to be independent thinkers. [Interjections.] You see, the ANC does not scrutinise our speeches like you and your leader does, hon Worth.

Voorsitter, watter skande is dit nie. Terwyl die regering en die President alles gedoen het om 6 kiloliter gratis water vir ons mense te gee, sny die DA tot dit ook af, Voorsitter. Mev Zille gebruik nie die bronne wat tot haar beskikking is as leier en burgemeester van die Stad Kaapstad om die polisie te help om dwelmbase uit te sit wat tik verkoop nie; wat dwelms verkoop; wat ons vroue en kinders se lewens verwoes nie. Sy doen dit nie, maar teen die polisie wil sy protes aanteken. Sy reël optogte, Voorsitter, teen die polisie – mense wat bereid is om haar te help – in plaas daarvan dat sy, soos die ANC, ons gemeenskappe leer dat ons vennootskappe moet smee met die instansies wat daar geplaas is deur die regering. Voorsitter, hulle het nie ’n beleid of ’n geskiedenis van deernis nie.

Dis die einste DA wat, toe die Wes-Kaapse Wetgewer plase gaan besoek het om die mense se omstandighede op plase te ondersoek, nie deel was van daardie besoeke nie. Die einste DA – hoe kan ’n man nou hier kom praat van armoede as hy self nie eens daar was om te luister nie? Hulle het geweier. Voorsitter, hulle wil ontken dat uitsettings plaasvind, maar hulle sit die mense uit.

AgriSA en Agri Wes-Kaap het gesê dat daar sekere elemente in die boeregemeenskap is wat plaaswerkers behandel asof hulle diere is. Inteendeel, hulle het so ver gegaan om te sê dat, Voorsitter, in sekere gebiede word die diere beter behandel as die plaaswerkers. Voorsitter, dis hoekom ek vandag nie eens hare op my kop het nie, want ons moes agter op die bakkie sit terwyl die hond voor sit. Dan het die oubaas nog baie vinnig ook gery en dit het gemaak dat ons hare deurmekaar waai.

Voorsitter, ons mense kry swaar. Ons mense kry swaar op die plase. Plaaseienaars koop liewer voorraad aan sodat ons mense by die nooi op die plaas by die winkel moet koop eerder as om hulle dorp toe te vat waar hulle ‘n bietjie geld kan spaar.

Voorsitter, as ’n mens kyk na die spioenasie-saga – ek wil u sê mev Helen Zille het ’n geskiedenis. In 2000, toe die DA die Wes-Kaap regeer het, het hulle liewers geld uitgegee om bunkers te bou; om meeluisterapparate aan te koop. So, dit is geen verbasing dat hierdie spioenasie-saga nou uitkom nie. Ek wil vir die DA sê: wat jy saai, sal jy maai. [Applause.]

Ek wil vandag vir u sê, indien daar enigsins mense was wat omgegee het vir Suid-Afrika, Voorsitter, dan is dit hierdie mense wat nou aan bewind is. Voorsitter, baie van hierdie mense het families verloor; het goeie vriende verloor. Voorsitter, die bloed het gevloei dat ons vryheid kan geniet en die DA wil ons glad nie eens daardie vryheid gee nie. Ek sê vir julle, DA, in Wes-Kaapse taal: julle maak julle laat. Ons sal voortgaan in ons stryd na vryheid.

Voorsitter, die DA moenie skaam en suinig wees met die waarheid nie. Die DA wil die ANC kritiseer. Toe ons in 2000 begin het met hierdie program, het hulle gesê dit is die ANC se politieke veldtog, maar wie voer vandag ’n politieke veldtog? Dit is die einste DA. Ek wil vir julle sê, DA, julle wil sê: doen wat ek sê, maar moenie maak wat ek doen nie. Nee, julle gaan nie ons mense vat vir enigiets nie. Ons mense het polities gegroei. Daar is nie meer kans – ’n man kan maar hier al die tale kom praat, maar wragtig, jy gaan ons nie meer verneuk nie.

Ek wil uitsonder vandag iemand wat versoening, iemand wat vrede probeer bring in Suid-Afrika met haar musiek – tant Grietjie van Garies. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Chairperson, what a disgrace it is. While the government and the President did everything to give 6 kilolitre free water to our people, the DA cuts that off as well, Chairperson. Mrs Zille does not use the resources that are at her disposal as a leader and the Mayor of the City of Cape Town to help the police to evict the drug lords who sell tik; who sell drugs; who destroy the lives of our women and children. She does not do that but she wants to protest against the police. She arranges marches, Chairperson, against the police – people who are willing to help her - instead of teaching our communities, like the ANC does, that we have to forge alliances with the institutions that are created by the government. Chairperson, they do not have a policy or a history of compassion. This is the selfsame DA who, when the Western Cape legislature visited farms to investigate the conditions of people on farms, was not part of those visits. How can one come here and talk about poverty when one was not even there to listen? They refused. Chairperson, they want to deny that evictions occur, but they evict people.

AgriSA and Agri Western Cape said that there are certain elements in the farming community who treat farmworkers as if they are animals. On the contrary, they went as far as to say, Chairperson, that in certain areas the animals are treated better than the farmworkers. Chairperson, that is why I do not even have hair on my head today, because we had to sit on the back of the bakkie while the dog sat in front. And then the farmer drove very fast as well and that meant that our hair was blown about by the wind.

Chairperson, our people are having a difficult time. Our people are having a difficult time on the farms. Farm owners would rather buy supplies so that our people must buy from the farmer’s wife at the shop on the farm rather than taking them to town where they can save a bit of money.

Chairperson, if one looks at the spy saga, I want to tell you Mrs Helen Zille has a history. In 2000, when the DA governed the Western Cape, they rather spent money on building bunkers and eavesdropping devices. So it is no surprise that this spy saga has been revealed now. I want to tell the DA: As you sow, so shall you reap. [Applause.]

I want to tell you today, if there were people who cared in any way for South Africa, Chairperson, then it would be these people who are in power at present. Chairperson, many of these people lost families and good friends. Chairperson, blood flowed so that we could enjoy freedom and the DA does not even want to give us that freedom. I say to you, DA, in the language of the Western Cape: You are delaying yourselves. We will continue in our struggle for freedom.

Chairperson, the DA should not be shy and miserly with the truth. The DA wants to criticise the ANC. When we began with this programme in 2000, they said it is the ANC’s political campaign, but who is conducting a political campaign today? It is the selfsame DA. I want to say to you, DA, you want to say: Do as I say, but do not do as I do. No, you are not going to fool our people. Our people have grown politically. There is no longer a chance of that – a man can come here and speak all the languages, but really, you are not going to con us any more.

I want to single out someone who tries to bring reconciliation, someone who tries to bring peace in South Africa today with her music – Aunty Grietjie of Garies.]

Thank you, Chair. [Time expired.] The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Chairperson, when I spoke here a little while ago, I said it was important that we should understand the reality of our country, we should respect the truth, and we should not claim easy victories.

All of us know that Jan van Riebeeck came to this country in 1652. All sorts of things then happened and we could only change the situation in our country in 1994 – that is a long period. I think it is not correct to pretend that we can change that reality of over 300 years in 13 years. We should not go around telling people that we can change that reality in 13 years – it is wrong. That is why I was saying that we should tell no lies.

We have to learn the habit of telling the people the truth. What is the truth? The truth is that it is going to take us a long time to eradicate this legacy of colonialism and apartheid. Anybody who wants to win votes by saying that we can eradicate that legacy in a day is not telling the truth. I do not believe that such people need to represent our people.

We must tell this truth and say quite frankly and quite honestly to our people that it is going to take us time to solve these problems, to eradicate this legacy which has left us with many poor people. It has left us with many unemployed people. It has left us with many people who live in shacks, who have no access to water who have no access to clinics, and who have no access to many things. We must outgrow the habit of promising people things that we cannot do – it is wrong. [Applause.]

The time to interact with the people and the time to debate with the people will never be over – it cannot happen. I think people who would say things such as that the time for debating is over are people who do not respect the people. There cannot be a day in a week in which one can say that the voice of the people does not matter, and therefore the time to debate matters is over - it is not correct. We will be able, in time, to deal with all these problems of homelessness and so on. But, even when we have done that, we will have to sit with the people and ask them what we need to do next.

I was saying that I was very pleased that the NCOP has continued with this programme of Taking Parliament to the People. I would agree with the hon Mzizi that it cannot be that we say we are going to stop talking to the people because it is going to cost us R10, and that it is a waste of money. How can it be a waste of money, particularly coming from people who have been elected by the people? So, the debate must continue. I would like to say again that I really do appreciate the work that the NCOP does in taking Parliament to the people and ensuring that the people come and participate in these meetings. I will come back to this matter again just now.

There will be no easy victories and we must ensure that we work with the people who ask what our elected representatives - our legislatures and our governments - do together with the people to address all these challenges that we face.

I understand that the hon Van Heerden is a member of the Judicial Service Commission. I would imagine that a member of the Judicial Service Commission is aware of the law, the Constitution and procedures relating to the Judicial Service Commission. Therefore, the hon Van Heerden would have known very well that it was completely out of order to raise the question that he raised about the selection of the Free State Judge President.

This is a matter that obviously cannot be addressed here. I am saying that I am sure that he knows or ought to know what the procedures are. He ought to know, for instance, what the procedures are between the selection of High Court judges and the selection of Constitutional Court judges. I trust that the hon Van Heerden will pose whatever question he has about the decisions of the Judicial Service Commission to the body to which he belongs - not here, Mr Van Heerden. [Applause.]

I must say that the Chairperson and the Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP and I discussed this matter some time back that the Presidency is continuously very interested in hearing from the NCOP - what it learns during the periods when it takes Parliament to the people. Indeed, as the Chairperson of the NCOP has said earlier, after the conclusion of our work here, as in the past, the NCOP will follow up on the matters that have been raised by the people of the Boland.

We have agreed with the Chairperson and the Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP that the Presidency would also appreciate a report from the NCOP about what the NCOP has learned. The reason for that is that as national government we are very interested in working with provincial and local governments to respond to matters that people raise. Therefore, Chairperson, I will say again that we will rely on you to brief us on what the people have said so that we can then ensure that all structures at the national level are able to work with the provincial and local governments to respond to the matters that have been raised by the people here in the Boland.

I must say, Chairperson, that indeed we would agree very much with the matters that you, the Premier of Gauteng, hon Ntwanambi, the Premier of the Northern Cape, and other speakers have raised. These matters are really what we need to focus on and that is the needs of the people right down to the household. What you have said, for instance, Chairperson, was that if there is a blockage in a toilet, that toilet is in a specific house and in a specific household and government must respond to that challenge.

We have said, MEC Xasa has raised this also, that we have to ensure that our programmes - poverty alleviation, poverty eradication and social development - really do focus right down on the household. We must not be satisfied that people have grants but we must ask ourselves how we can assist so that people can develop and graduate out of the system of grants and get skills and jobs to be able to generate their own wealth and not just depend on grants.

The fact of the matter is that government actually knows – the Deputy President of the Republic makes this point very regularly – who receives grants. We know the names of the people and we know their home addresses. We have this because these people are on government records. So, we know exactly which family or household is poor. We should be able to enumerate the interventions we should attempt in that household in order to take people out of the system of social grants - because they will be able to generate income; they will be more skilled; they will have access to capital; and they will be able to develop themselves.

This is precisely the direction in which all structures of government have to move so that we are able to measure progress - not only in general statistical terms, but in terms of this particular family, this particular household and these particular people.

It would indeed be very important that we get the report of this visit from the NCOP so that we can see what else we need to do as the national government to respond to the issues that people have raised in this district.

I must say that, indeed, the concern about farm evictions is a very legitimate matter. The hon members of the NCOP may be familiar with this, as we discussed the matter in our last Presidential Working Group on Commercial Agriculture. All of the farmers’ organisations were there, national government was there and all sorts of organisations in agriculture were there and this matter was discussed.

All of us agreed that it is an issue on which we had to focus just as we had to focus on other issues in commercial agriculture that the Chairperson of the NCOP had raised and which were discussed here. These matters have to do with improving the manner in which farmworkers are treated.

As a result of that discussion, a joint task force has been set up which includes the Ministry of Agriculture and Land Affairs and the various farmers’ unions so that together - government and the farmers’ unions - we can respond to these matters. The task team has been set up because we were as concerned as people here clearly are about these continuing problems. I do hope, indeed, that the task team will do the work that it has to do throughout our country.

Again, as I have just said, it has to focus on specific farms. It has to deal with specific people. It cannot make general interventions, but must make specific and focused interventions to ensure that indeed this democracy that we have brought about also begins to reflect itself in the manner in which our farmworkers are treated.

Lastly, Chairperson, I was very, very concerned about the issue that you raised concerning the absence of local councillors and members of the provincial legislature from these proceedings of the NCOP. I do not know what we can do about it but it is obviously wrong and unacceptable.

We have had a problem here in the Western Cape for some time. I have never raised this problem before, but I am going to raise it now: In the past - some years back, you had a government of the Western Cape that was formed by the Democratic Party and the New National Party, as they were called then. The problem that arose was that that government wanted to treat the Western Cape as though the Western Cape was a separate country.

We faced problems because in reality, that government did not want to recognise the fact that we had one country and one national government. We had to deal with problems of delegations from the Western Cape going to Geneva to meet the World Health Organisation, delegations from the Western Cape going to Latin America to reach agreements about health matters as though we did not have a national government; as though we did not have one country.

South Africa is described in our Constitution - it is no longer fragmented as was attempted under the system of so-called “separate development”. There is no Western Cape or Cape Town that is separate from the rest of South Africa. [Applause.]

The National Council of Provinces is a House of our national Parliament and all structures of government in the country, regardless of the party in power, must respect that fact. [Applause.] It cannot be correct that anybody in the country treats these constitutional structures of our country with contempt and decides that it is a waste of time to interact with the National Council of Provinces. It is not right.

I had thought that the problem that I am mentioning of, seemingly, a desire to return to the days of separate development, had died away in this part of the country. But what you have said about the absence of councillors and MPLs tells me that perhaps it has not.

I would hope that the political parties that engaged in the struggle to defeat separate development, that engaged in the struggle to say that we have one South Africa, that engaged in the struggle to have the Constitution that we have, will do their work so that, indeed, we overcome this wrong kind of thinking, that it is possible to develop any part of the country as though it were a separate entity.

I would like to agree with you, Chairperson of the NCOP, that, indeed, if there are people who were elected to whatever position and do not do their work, I don’t think those people deserve to stay in the positions in which they are. [Applause.]

Chairperson, Premiers, MECs, hon members and people of the Boland, thank you very much indeed for this opportunity to be with you. I want to say to the people that indeed we will follow up on all of the matters that you have raised. As I have said, I am quite certain that the Chairperson and the Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP will give us a report on these matters. We will then follow up on them because we must continue to be a government that responds to the voice of the people. [Applause.]

Before we came into this room, the Chairperson of the NCOP told me that everybody here will be a delegate at the ANC conference next month. [Applause.] I wanted to say: Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to everybody, but he said: “No, wait. They are all coming to Limpopo!” [Laughter.] But, a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to everybody. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

                 THANKS TO HON XASA AND HON MQULWANA
                                 AND
              HANDING OVER OF WHEELCHAIRS BY PRESIDENT

                           (Announcements)

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Please be seated. Thank you. Let us all sit down and listen. I want to thank the President for his response. We will take another five minutes. I just want to make two announcements, one from me and the other on behalf of the Acting Premier of the Western Cape, hon Ramatlakane.

My announcement is as follows: Hon members, today I want to take this opportunity to thank the hon T Xasa, MEC for Local Government, Housing and Traditional Affairs in the Eastern Cape, for being the first MEC to send to the National Council of Provinces a report on the status of municipalities in the Eastern Cape, in terms of section 106 of the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act. [Applause.] I hope that all the MECs will do the same.

Hon Xasa is amongst us. Will you please stand up, hon Xasa, so that they can see you? Thank you very much. [Applause.] That is how intergovernmental relations should work. We will consider and study the report and thereafter we will work with you to resolve the issues that you have raised. Thank you very much.

The second announcement comes from the Acting Premier, hon Ramatlakane. Before I make that announcement, I would like to thank hon Mqulwana, the MEC for Social Development, very much for being with us for the whole day on Tuesday when we discussed social issues. Omitting to mention that earlier on was my fault.

The Acting Premier wanted to make this announcement, but he ran out of time. The announcement reads as follows:

I want to make particular reference to a family with special needs, whose mobility has been stunted as a result of them not having wheelchairs. Mr President and chairperson, as a caring government, we have arranged that the province meets the needs of this family. We will provide them with two wheelchairs and, in fact, we request that the President does us the honour of handing the wheelchairs over.

[Applause.] By the way, their plight was raised during a discussion of the NCOP. I now want to announce the names of these people. After I have announced their names, I would like everyone to please remain seated; nobody must leave the Chamber. After announcing their names, I will then adjourn the House. Once I have adjourned the House, everyone must remain seated.

The President will perform the task of handing over these two wheelchairs. After the President has done so, the procession will leave the Chamber while you remain seated. Once we have allowed the President to leave the Chamber, then all of us can leave to go and enjoy our lunch. The two names are: Sindile Nomangola and Lottie Mrhwebu. The husband, Stephen, will receive this wheelchair on behalf of his wife, who could not be here this afternoon.

The Council adjourned at 13:35. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

                     WEDNESDAY, 24 OCTOBER 2007

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Bill passed by Houses– to be submitted to President for assent

(1)     Bill passed by National Council of Provinces on 23 October
     2007:


     (a)     Co-operative Banks Bill [B 13B – 2007] (National Assembly –
         sec 75).

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Trade and Industry

   (a) Report and Financial Statements of Support Program for Industrial Innovation (SPII) for 2006-2007, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2006-2007.

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Council of Provinces

1. Report of the Select Committee on Public Services on the Convention for the Control and Management of Ships’ Ballast Water and Sediments, 2004 (Ballast Water Management Convention), dated 24 October 2007:

   The Select Committee on Public Services, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Convention for the Control and Management of Ships’ Ballast Water and Sediments, 2004 (Ballast Water Management Convention), referred to it, recommends that the Council, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Convention.

Report to be considered.

1. Report of the Select Committee on Public Services on the Convention on Oil Pollution Preparedness, Response and Co-operation, 1990 (OPRC Convention), dated 24 October 2007:

   The Select Committee on Public Services, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Convention on Oil Pollution Preparedness, Response and Co-operation, 1990 (OPRC Convention), referred to it, recommends that the Council, in terms of section 231 (2) of the Constitution, approve the said Convention.

Report to be considered.

                      THURSDAY, 25 OCTOBER 2007

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Introduction of Bills

 (1)    The Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism

     (a)     National Environment Management: Waste Bill [B 39 –
          2007] (National Assembly– proposed sec 76) [Bill and prior
          notice of its introduction published in Government Gazette
          No 30142 of 3 August 2007.]


          Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on
          Environmental Affairs and Tourism of the National Assembly, as
          well as referral to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for
          classification in terms of Joint Rule 160.


          In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification
          of the Bill may be submitted to the JTM within three
          parliamentary working days.

1. Draft Bills submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159

(a)    Cross-Border Road Transport Amendment Bill, 2007, submitted by
     the Minister of Transport. Referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Transport and the Select Committee on Public Services.

National Council of Provinces

The Chairperson

1. Message from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces in respect of Bills passed and transmitted

(1)     Bills passed by National Assembly on 25 October 2007 and
     transmitted for concurrence:
     (a)     Local Government Laws Amendment Bill [B 23B – 2007]
          (National Assembly – sec 75)


     The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on Local
     Government and Administration of the National Council of
     Provinces.

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Finance

(a)     Report and Financial Statements of the Government Employees
     Pension Fund (GEPF) for 2006-2007, including the Report of the
     Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2006-2007 [RP
     202-2007].

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Council of Provinces

1. Report of the Select Committee on Labour and Public Enterprises on the Annual Report and Financial Statements for 2006/2007 of the Department of Labour, dated 17 October 2007:

   The Select Committee on Labour and Public Enterprises, having been briefed by the Department of Labour on its Annual Report and Financial Statements of Vote 17 for 2006-2007, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote 17 for 2006-2007, referred to it, reports that it has concluded its deliberations thereon.

2. Report of the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs on the Convention on the Conservation and Management of Fishery Resources in the South East Atlantic Ocean (SEAFO), dated 23 October 2007:

   The Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Convention on the Conservation and Management of Fishery Resources in the South East Atlantic Ocean (SEAFO), referred to it, recommends that the Council, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Convention.

   Report to be considered.

3. Report of the Select Committee on Public Services on the Transport Agencies General Laws Amendment Bill [B 27B- 2007] (National Assembly- sec 75), dated 24 October 2007:

   The Select Committee on Public Services, having considered the subject of the Transport Agencies General Laws Amendment Bill [B 27B- 2007] (National Assembly-sec 75), referred to it, reports the Bill with proposed amendments as follows:

                           CLAUSE 1
   

4. On page 3, after line 4, to insert the following paaragraph: “(a) the substitution in subsection (2) for the words preceding paragraph (a) of the following words: “The Minister must, after consulting with the relevant stakeholders and the chairpersons of the Portfolio Committee on Transport and the Select Committee on Public Service, appoint the members of the Board consisting of-“.

                           CLAUSE 7
   

5. On page 5, after line 38, to insert the following paragraph: (c) the substitution in subsection (3) for paragraph (a) of the following paragraph: “(a) are appointed by the Minister, after consultation with the chairpersons of the Portfolio Committee on Transport and the Select Committee on Public Service, from a list of names of persons which, at the Minister’s request by notice in the media, have been submitted to him or her within the period specified in the notice by any person or body having an interest in the maritime or related industry; and”.

                           CLAUSE 14
   

 1. On page 7, in line 23, after “Minister”, to insert “after
    consultation with the chairpersons of the Portfolio Committee on
    Transport and the Select Committee on Public Service.”.


                              CLAUSE 18

1. On page 8, after line 15, to insert the following paragraph: (a) the substitution for subsection (1) of the following subsection: “(1) The Tribunal consists of not more than nine, but not less than five, members appointed by the Minister after consultation with every member of the Executive Council in every province responsible for road transport matters and the chairpersons of the Portfolio Committee on Transport and the Select Committee on Public Service.”.

                    FRIDAY, 26 OCTOBER 2007
   

TABLINGS

National Council of Provinces

1. The Chairperson

   a) Municipal Annual Performance Report for 2005/6 by the MEC for Developmental Local Government and Housing in North West.

   Referred to the Select Committee on Local Government and Administration.

                      MONDAY, 29 OCTOBER 2007
   

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Introduction of Bills

 (1)    The Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism

     (a)     National Environment Management: Integrated Coastal
          Management Bill [B 40 – 2007] (National Assembly– proposed
          sec 76) [Bill and prior notice of its introduction published
          in Government Gazette No 30141 of 6 August 2007.]


          Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on
          Environmental Affairs and Tourism of the National Assembly, as
          well as referral to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for
          classification in terms of Joint Rule 160.


          In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the
          classification of the Bill may be submitted to the JTM within
          three parliamentary working days.

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson

   (a) Report and Financial Statements of Vote 2 – Parliament for 2006- 2007, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote 2 for 2006-2007 [RP 97-2007]. National Council of Provinces

2. The Chairperson

   (a) Progress Report on the Mbombela Municipality, submitted by the MEC for Local government and Housing in Mpumalanga, in terms of section 106(3) of the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act, 2000 (Act No 32 of 2000).

   Referred to the Select Committee on Local Government and Administration.

   (b) Agreement between the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Republic of Cuba on the Employment of Technical Advisors, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Council of Provinces

[REPRINT]

1. Report of the Select Committee on Public Services on the Transport Agencies General Laws Amendment Bill [B 27B- 2007] (National Assembly- sec 75), dated 24 October 2007:

   The Select Committee on Public Services, having considered the subject of the Transport Agencies General Laws Amendment Bill [B 27B- 2007] (National Assembly-sec 75), referred to it, reports the Bill with proposed amendments as follows: CLAUSE 1

2. On page 3, after line 4, to insert the following paragraph: “(a) the substitution in subsection (2) for the words preceding paragraph (a) of the following words: “The Minister must, after consulting with the relevant stakeholders and the chairpersons of the Portfolio Committee on Transport and the Select Committee on Public Service, appoint the members of the Board consisting of-“.

                           CLAUSE 7
   

3. On page 5, after line 38, to insert the following paragraph: (c) the substitution in subsection (3) for paragraph (a) of the following paragraph: “(a) are appointed by the Minister, after consultation with the chairpersons of the Portfolio Committee on Transport and the Select Committee on Public Service, from a list of names of persons which, at the Minister’s request by notice in the media, have been submitted to him or her within the period specified in the notice by any person or body having an interest in the maritime or related industry; and”.

                           CLAUSE 14
   

4. On page 7, in line 23, after “Minister”, to insert “after consultation with the chairpersons of the Portfolio Committee on Transport and the Select Committee on Public Service.”.

                           CLAUSE 18
   

5. On page 8, after line 15, to insert the following paragraph: (a) the substitution for subsection (1) of the following subsection: “(1) The Tribunal consists of not more than nine, but not less than five, members appointed by the Minister after consultation with every member of the Executive Council in every province responsible for road transport matters and the chairpersons of the Portfolio Committee on Transport and the Select Committee on Public Service.”.

                           CLAUSE 19
   

6. On page 8, in line 36, after “Minister”, to insert “after consultation with the chairpersons of the Portfolio Committee on Transport and the Select Committee on Public Service.”.

                           CLAUSE 22
   

7. On page 9, in line 35, after “subsection (2)”, to insert “and after consultation with the chairpersons of the Portfolio Committee on Transport and the Select Committee on Public Service”.

                           CLAUSE 23
   

8. On page 10, after line 11, to insert the following paragraph: (a) the substitution for subsection (4) of the following subsection” “(4) The members of the board are appointed by the Minister after consultation with the chairpersons of the Portfolio Committee on Transport and the Select Committee on Public Service.”.

                   TUESDAY, 30 OCTOBER 2007
   

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Draft Bills submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159

(a)    Revenue Laws Second Amendment Bill, 2007, submitted by the
     Minister of Finance. Referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance and the Select Committee on Finance.


(b)    Security Transfer Tax Administration Bill, 2007, submitted by
     the Minister of Finance. Referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance and the Select Committee on Finance.

1. Introduction of Bills

   1) The Minister of Finance

   a) Adjustments Appropriation Bill [B 41 – 2007] (National
      Assembly – proposed sec 77)
   

   (b) Revenue Laws Amendment Bill [B 42 – 2007] (National Assembly – proposed sec 77)

   (c) Revenue Laws Second Amendment Bill [B 43 – 2007] (National Assembly – proposed sec 75) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior notice of its introduction published in Government Gazette No 30398 of 22 October 2007.]

   (d) Securities Transfer Tax Bill [B 44 – 2007] (National Assembly – proposed sec 77)

   (e) Security Transfer Tax Administration Bill [B 45 – 2007] (National Assembly – proposed sec 75) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior notice of its introduction published in Government Gazette No 30398 of 22 October 2007.]

   Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on Finance of the National Assembly, as well as referral to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint Rule 160.

   In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of the Bills may be submitted to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) within three parliamentary working days.

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Finance

 a) Medium Term Budget Policy Statement 2007 [RP 228-2007].


    Referred to the Joint Budget Committee and the Portfolio Committee
    on Finance for consideration and report, in accordance with their
    respective mandates.


 b) Adjustments Appropriation Bill, 2007 [B41-2007].


    Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Finance for consideration
    and report.


 c) Adjusted Estimates of National Expenditure 2007 [RP 229-2007],
    which includes:

          1. Memorandum on Vote No 1 - "The Presidency", Adjustments
             Estimates, 2007-2008;

          2. Memorandum on Vote No 2 - "Parliament", Adjustments
             Estimates, 2007-2008;


          3. Memorandum on Vote No 3 - "Foreign Affairs", Adjustments
             Estimates, 2007-2008;


          4. Memorandum on Vote No 4 - "Home Affairs", Adjustments
             Estimates, 2007-2008;
          5. Memorandum on Vote No 5 - "Provincial and Local
             Government", Adjustments Estimates, 2007-2008;
          6. Memorandum on Vote No 6 - "Public Works", Adjustments
             Estimates, 2007-2008;


          7. Memorandum on Vote No 7 - "Government Communications and
             Information System", Adjustments Estimates, 2007-2008;


          8. Memorandum on Vote No 8 - "National Treasury", Adjustments
             Estimates, 2007-2008;


          9. Memorandum on Vote No 9 - "Public Service and
             Administration", Adjustments Estimates, 2007-2008;


         10. Memorandum on Vote No 10 - "Public Service Commission",
             Adjustments Estimates, 2007-2008;


         11. Memorandum on Vote No 11 - "South African Management
             Development Institute", Adjustments Estimates, 2007-2008;


         12. Memorandum on Vote No 12 - "Statistics South Africa",
             Adjustments Estimates, 2007-2008;


         13. Memorandum on Vote No 13 - "Arts and Culture", Adjustments
             Estimates, 2007-2008;


         14. Memorandum on Vote No 14 - "Education", Adjustments
             Estimates, 2007-2008;


         15. Memorandum on Vote No 15 - "Health", Adjustments Estimates,
             2007-2008;


         16. Memorandum on Vote No 16 - "Labour", Adjustments Estimates,
             2007-2008;


         17. Memorandum on Vote No 17 - "Social Development",
             Adjustments Estimates, 2007-2008;


         18. Memorandum on Vote No 18 - " Sport and Recreation South
             Africa", Adjustments Estimates, 2007-2008;


         19. Memorandum on Vote No 19 - "Correctional Services",
             Adjustments Estimates, 2007-2008;


         20. Memorandum on Vote No 20 - "Defence", Adjustments
             Estimates, 2007-2008;


         21. Memorandum on Vote No 21 - "Independent Complaints
             Directorate", Adjustments Estimates, 2007-2008;


         22. Memorandum on Vote No 22 - "Justice and Constitutional
             Development”, Adjustments Estimates, 2007-2008;


         23. Memorandum on Vote No 23 - "Safety and Security",
             Adjustments Estimates, 2007-2008;


         24. Memorandum on Vote No 24 - "Agriculture", Adjustments
             Estimates, 2007-2008;


         25. Memorandum on Vote No 25 - "Communications", Adjustments
             Estimates, 2007-2008;


         26. Memorandum on Vote No 26 - "Environmental Affairs and
             Tourism", Adjustments Estimates, 2007-2008;


         27. Memorandum on Vote No 27 - "Housing", Adjustments
             Estimates, 2007-2008;


         28. Memorandum on Vote No 28 - "Land Affairs", Adjustments
             Estimates, 2007-2008;


         29. Memorandum on Vote No 29 - "Minerals and Energy",
             Adjustments Estimates, 2007-2008;


         30. Memorandum on Vote No 30 - "Public Enterprises",
             Adjustments Estimates, 2007-2008;
         31. Memorandum on Vote No 31 - "Science and Technology",
             Adjustments Estimates, 2007-2008;


         32. Memorandum on Vote No 32 - "Trade and Industry",
             Adjustments Estimates, 2007-2008;


         33. Memorandum on Vote No 33 - "Transport", Adjustments
             Estimates, 2007-2008;


         34. Memorandum on Vote No 34 - "Water Affairs and Forestry",
             Adjustments Estimates, 2007-2008;

    Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Finance for consideration
    and report.

1. The Minister for Public Enterprises a) Report and Financial Statements of arivia.kom (Pty) Ltd for 2006- 2007, including the Report of the Independent Auditors for 2006- 2007.

2. The Minister of Trade and Industry

   a) Report and Financial Statements of the Technology and Human Resources for Industry Programme (THRIP) for 2006-2007, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2006-2007.

   b) Report of the National Industrial Participation Programme for 2006- 2007.

                  WEDNESDAY, 31 OCTOBER 2007
   

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Draft Bills submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159

(a)    Jurisdiction of Regional Courts Amendment Bill, 2007, submitted
     by the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development.
     Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional
     Development and the Select Committee on Security and
     Constitutional Affairs.

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Finance

   a) National Treasury – Consolidated Financial Information for the year ended 31 March 2007.

                   THURSDAY, 1 NOVEMBER 2007
   

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Introduction of Bills

 (1)    The Minister of Trade and Industry

     (a)     Standards Bill [B 46 – 2007] (National Assembly–
          proposed sec 75) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior
          notice of its introduction published in Government Gazette
          No 30351 of 8 October 2007.]

     (b)     National Regulator for Compulsory Specifications Bill [B
          47 – 2007] (National Assembly– proposed sec 75) [Explanatory
          summary of Bill and prior notice of its introduction
          published in Government Gazette No 30351 of 8 October 2007.]




          Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on Trade
          and Industry of the National Assembly, as well as referral to
          the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms
          of Joint Rule 160.


          In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the
          classification of the Bills may be submitted to the JTM
          within three parliamentary working days.

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson

   a) Report of the Auditor-General on the findings identified during a performance audit on the rendering of catering services at the Department of Defence – August 2007 [RP 221-2007].

2. The Minister of Finance

   a) Agreement Establishing the Collaborative Africa Budget Reform Initiative (CABRI), tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.

   b) Explanatory Memorandum to the Agreement Establishing the Collaborative Africa Budget Reform Initiative (CABRI).

3. The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development

   a) Report on the withholding of remuneration of Mr T V D Matyolo, in terms of section 13(4A)(b) of the Magistrates Act, 1993 (Act No 90 of 1993).

4. The Minister of Science and Technology

 a) Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa
    and the Government of the Sultanate of Oman on Scientific and
    Technological Cooperation, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the
    Constitution, 1996.

  b) Explanatory Memorandum to the Agreement between the Government of
     the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Sultanate of
     Oman on Scientific and Technological Cooperation, tabled in terms
     of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.

  c) Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa
     and the Argentine Republic on Scientific and Technological
     Cooperation, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution,
     1996.

  d) Explanatory Memorandum to the Agreement between the Government of
     the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Argentine
     Republic on Scientific and Technological Cooperation, tabled in
     terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.

  e) Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa
     and the Government of the Slovak Republic on Scientific and
     Technological Cooperation, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the
     Constitution, 1996.

  f) Explanatory Memorandum to the Agreement between the Government of
     the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Slovak
     Republic on Scientific and Technological Cooperation, tabled in
     terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.

  g) Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa
     and the Government of Australia on Scientific and Technological
     Cooperation, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution,
     1996.

  h) Explanatory Memorandum to the Agreement between the Government of
     the Republic of South Africa and the Government of Australia on
     Scientific and Technological Cooperation, tabled in terms of
     section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.

  i) Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa
     and the Government of the Hellenic Republic on Scientific and
     Technological Cooperation, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the
     Constitution, 1996.

  j) Explanatory Memorandum to the Agreement between the Government of
     the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Hellenic
     Republic on Scientific and Technological Cooperation, tabled in
     terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.

National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Safety and Security

   a) Nomination for appointment of Executive Director: Independent Complaints Directorate (ICD) in terms of section 51 of the South African Police Service Act, 1995 (Act No 68 of 1995).

   Referred to the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs for consideration and report.