National Assembly - 20 November 2008
THURSDAY, 20 NOVEMBER 2008 __
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
_____
The House met at 14:02.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.
CONGRATULATIONS TO SOUTH AFRICAN RUGBY TEAM
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House –
1) notes that the South African rugby team beat Wales 20-15 on Saturday,
8 November 2008, and beat Scotland 14-10 on Saturday, 15 November
2008;
2) further notes that this means that the Springboks have already won
two of their three matches in their three-test end-of-season tour;
3) recognises that our national rugby team are great ambassadors for our
country and instil a sense of pride in all South Africans;
4) acknowledges the many exciting young rugby playing talents we have in
this country that need to be nurtured;
5) further recognises that both these victories serve to inspire all our
young South African sportsmen and women to work hard and to develop
themselves in order to excel not only in the field of rugby but in
any field of sport so that they can also represent South Africa in
the future;
6) wishes the Springboks well for their final match of the tour against
England on Saturday, 22 November 2008; and
7) congratulates the Springboks on their highly successful 2008 rugby
season.
Agreed to.
HON MEMBERS: Hear, hear! [Interjections.] The SPEAKER: Hon members, let me make this plea upfront. I know we may be meeting for the last time, or a number of us are. There are going to be lots of consultations, taking of particulars and so on. I don’t want to create an environment for that here. I think it’s a very good thing to do, for colleagues to know how they are going to reach each other during recess and so on. But we are going to ask the colleagues, politely, to leave the House. I would be very happy to remain with 50 people who are dedicated to what we want to deal with here. The Whips must please help us.
The problem is – and I’ve never wanted to do this – every time we call you to order because of the noise, it must be captured by Hansard. For generations and generations to come, people will read and see that, here are these people whom they entrusted with their lives and everything, and they are being called to order every 15 minutes.
Please, hon members, let us help each other. We are all leaders. Let us help each other and make sure that this last day but one becomes also a memorable day in terms of us respecting each other. I must confess, Mr Davidson, that I struggled to hear what you said. I’m very happy there was no opposition to it.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam, shall I repeat it?
The SPEAKER: No, unfortunately. [Laughter.] I was going to ask you to repeat it if anyone was opposed to it. But because everybody loved it, that was fine.
CONGRATULATIONS TO BAFANA BAFANA
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House –
1) notes that the South African Soccer Team, Bafana Bafana, won the
Nelson Mandela Challenge Cup for the first time in four years,
beating Cameroon;
2) further notes that this is the fourth consecutive win for Bafana
Bafana as part of their preparations for the 2010 FIFA World Cup;
3) believes that with this victory, Bafana Bafana is affirming the
views of stakeholders in soccer that they are progressing in
building a winning team for the 2010 FIFA World Cup to emulate the
successes of the team that was crowned Africa’s Champions in 1996;
and
4) congratulates Bafana Bafana on winning the match against Cameroon
and wishes them well in the coming international engagements.
Agreed to.
SALARY PAYABLE TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move the motion printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:
That the House –
1) in terms of section 2(1) of the Remuneration of Public Office
Bearers Act, 1998 (Act No 20 of 1998) and having due regard to the
criteria listed in that subsection, determines the salary payable to
the President of the Republic of South Africa at two million one
hundred and seven thousand two hundred and twenty four rand
(R2 107 224,00) per annum, with effect from 1 April 2008;
2) resolves that the structuring of the total remuneration package
should include the following elements:
a) A basic salary component (60 per cent of total package);
b) an amount of one hundred and twenty thousand rand
(R120 000,00) per annum, which is an amount to which section
8(1)(d) of the Income Tax Act, 1962, applies; and
c) a flexible portion; and
3) further resolves that the rules relating to structuring of the total
remuneration package should be similar to those in respect of senior
management positions in the Public Service.
Agreed to.
EXTENSION OF TERM OF AD HOC JOINT COMMITTEE TO CONSIDER DRAFT AMENDMENT REGULATIONS TO PUBLIC FUNDING OF REPRESENTED POLITICAL PARTIES ACT
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move the motion printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:
That the House –
1) notes that the Ad Hoc Joint Committee to consider the Draft
amendment regulations made in terms of the Public Funding of
Represented Political Parties Act was due to report on 5 November
2008;
2) further notes that the Speaker had, during recess, agreed to the
request for extension of the Committee’s term until 18 November, on
the understanding that the Assembly would ratify the extension;
3) further notes that the Committee has on 13 November 2008 reported on
its mandate; and
4) resolves, subject to the concurrence of the National Council of
Provinces and notwithstanding Joint Rule 138(5), to ratify the
extension of the deadline by which the Committee had to report to 18
November 2008.
Agreed to.
NEW SOCCER STADIUMS TO CATER FOR SOCCER AND RUGBY
(Member’s Statement)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY (ANC): Madam Speaker, yesterday the Portfolio Committee on Sport and Recreation met with the chief executive officer of the 2010 Fifa Local Organising Committee, Danny Jordaan, and representatives of host cities, namely the eThekweni, Nelson Mandela, Mbobela and Mangaung Municipalities.
The meeting was productive and illustrated the tremendous progress made in preparing for the hosting of the Confederations Cup and the 2010 World Cup. Challenges were identified and are in the process of being addressed by the relevant government departments.
Unfortunately, this good news has been ignored in an Afrikaans newspaper article that aims to deliberately distort and mislead sections of our community. In an article written by a journalist who attended only part of the meeting, certain statements are attributed to ANC members of the committee. At no stage was mention made that rugby supporters in general are criminals or that rugby must be banned from stadiums. In fact, the ANC members encouraged the new stadiums to become multipurpose centres of integration, used by soccer and rugby. A call was also made for rugby administrators to deal decisively with individuals who engage in racist criminal acts at matches.
We will continue to highlight instances of racism where black people are attacked and assaulted at rugby matches by racist thugs, and where certain stadiums and facilities are not accessible for use by the majority of our people.
The ANC study groups and the ANC reject this malicious article with the contempt it deserves. Thank you. [Applause.]
CALL FOR OUTCOMES-BASED EDUCATION CURRICULUM TO BE REVIEWED
(Member’s Statement)
Mrs D VAN DER WALT (DA): Madam Speaker, South Africa’s children need a coherent, workable and practical curriculum in order to learn the skills that will help them to drive South Africa’s future prosperity.
The DA therefore welcomes the recognition by the Department of Education at a recent education indaba that there are problems with outcomes-based education that must be addressed. While this curriculum was introduced with noble intentions, it has been criticised by teachers, educators and educational experts for being ambiguous, overly complicated and not prescribing clear enough outcomes. Partly as a result of this curriculum, South African education remains one of the worst in the developing world.
The DA very much wants our youth to be able to make a constructive contribution to making South Africa a better place. Our education system must provide them with the quality foundation that they need to do this. We therefore call for this curriculum to be reviewed urgently. ROAD SAFETY DURING HOLIDAY PERIOD
(Member’s Statement)
Mrs S A SEATON (IFP): Madam Speaker, the holiday season is upon us and while this is undoubtedly a joyous time where families and friends get together to celebrate, it is also characterised by increased levels of traffic on our roads and extremely high numbers of accidents.
It is with this in mind that I appeal to all road users to be responsible and to obey the rules of the road. They must not be reckless and impatient while driving, as this endangers not only their own lives but those of thousands of other road users. It is better to get to one’s destination a bit late than not at all.
Traffic officials must also be vigilant in their duties and ensure that road users obey the law, while any indiscretions must be punished. The carnage on our roads must be stopped and the only way to achieve this is if we all pull together and play our part in ensuring safety on our roads this festive season.
SIXTEEN DAYS OF ACTIVISM FOR NO VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN AND CHILDREN
CAMPAIGN
(Member’s Statement) Ms M M SOTYU (ANC): Madam Speaker, on Tuesday, 18 November 2008, the Deputy Minister of Provincial and Local Government, Ms Nomatyala Hangana, lit a peace torch that marks the 16 Days of Activism for No Violence Against Women and Children campaign. The objective of the campaign is to uphold the rights of citizens and restore the dignity of the most vulnerable members of society.
The theme for this year is, “Don’t Look Away. Act Against Woman and Child Abuse”.
The major goal and aim of the campaign are to raise awareness of the challenges caused by societal attitudes and practices that continue to perpetuate gender-based violence and child abuse.
The criminal justice cluster will be visiting all provinces and interacting with the people during the period of the 16 Days of Activism for No Violence Against Women and Children campaign.
The ANC-led government is committed to working towards the elimination of all manifestations and consequences of patriarchy, from the feminisation of poverty, physical and psychological abuse, undermining of self-confidence, to open and hidden forms of exclusion from the position of authority and power. Critical in this regard, is the creation of material and cultural conditions that allow abilities of women to flourish and enrich the life of the nation. Thank you. FAILURE OF SADC TO END MUGABE’S STRANGLEHOLD ON ZIMBABWE
(Member’s Statement)
Rev K R J MESHOE (ACDP): Madam Speaker, the ACDP is disappointed by the failure of SADC leaders to get tough with the Zanu PF leader, Mr Mugabe, who wants to cling to power at all costs. We know that the Westminster Political System allows the winner of elections to take all, but the SADC leaders seem to want the loser to take all power and control in Zimbabwe.
The ACDP believes the SADC leaders’ position that the Ministry of Home Affairs, which has control over the police, be run by two ministers belonging to two political parties defies all logic. We believe that the MDC leader who said, “The concept of co-ministering cannot work”, is correct.
The ACDP agrees with the Africa Director of the Human Rights Watch, Georgette Gagnon, that the UN must intervene in the Zimbabwean crisis to ensure that it does not become a threat to regional stability. The SADC leaders have shown that they do not have regard for ordinary Zimbabwean citizens who are suffering. They seem to be only interested in protecting one of their own and it has failed Southern African states one more time. The people expected them to confront Mr Mugabe about the atrocities still being committed by his armed forces and the judicial system that is still against the opposition and civil society despite, the accord having been signed in September.
The ACDP further believes that our leaders should emulate the courage of the Botswana President, Mr Ian Khama, who was courageous enough to take a stand for justice in defence of the Zimbabwean people, by refusing to endorse Mr Mugabe’s selfish approach to negotiations. Zimbabwe can never have peace with a cruel dictator at the helm. For peace to prevail, they need a leader who believes in equality, liberty and justice for all. Thank you.
DIGNITY OF PARLIAMENT AND PARLIAMENTARY PRIVILEGE
(Member’s Statement)
Mnr W D SPIES: Agb Speaker, die beskerming van die Parlement se waardigheid is van kardinale belang. Daarom het die Parlement ook reëls wat sy waardigheid probeer handhaaf. Parlementslede het voorregte en van daardie voorregte is die reg van privilegie. Dit stel ’n parlementslid in staat om sonder vrees vir vervolging sy vryheid van spraak te gebruik om in die openbare belang dinge te sê wat gehoor moet word.
Privilegie kan egter ook misbruik word deur LP’s wat nie weet hoe om verantwoordelik daarmee om te gaan nie. As ’n LP herhaaldelik rassisme verkondig en haat en verdeeldheid saai met wat hy in die Parlement kwytraak, misbruik hy parlementêre privilegie.
Vanjaar het die agb Butana Khompela en sy handlanger, die agb Cedrick Frolick, dit reeds vier keer gedoen. ’n Sportadministrateur word voor die sportkomitee gedaag en blatant daarvan beskuldig dat hy volgens die komitee nie omgee wanneer swartmense doodgemaak word nie. Toe die president van Saskok, Mosh Mashishi, beledig word deurdat gesê word dat Saskok maar net oorheers word deur ’n klomp wittes en Indiërs, word daar niks gedoen nie.
’n Lid van die Parlement wat die komitee besoek, word weer eens beledig en beskuldig van ’n wit mentaliteit en boeremaniere. Die voorsitter en ook mnr Frolick doen niks daaraan nie. Gister noem die agb Frolick rugby ’n misdadigersport – hy gebruik die Engelse term “delinquent sport” – en hy dreig om hul stadions weg te neem.
Agb Speaker, dit is nie aanvaarbaar nie. Die VF Plus dien vandag ’n klag van die misbruik van parlementêre privilegie by u in teen die twee lede. Ons sien uit na die uitslag van hierdie ondersoek en ons hoop dat u moeite sal doen om die waardigheid van die Parlement te herstel. Ek dank u. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans member’s statement follows.)
[Mr W D SPIES: Hon Speaker, protecting the dignity of Parliament is of cardinal importance. Therefore, Parliament also has rules that try to preserve its dignity. Members of Parliament have privileges and one of those privileges, is the right to privilege. It enables a Member of Parliament to exercise his freedom of speech to express, in the interest of the public, views that should be heard, without fear of prosecution.
Privilege, however, can also be abused by MPs who do not know how to use it responsibly. If an MP repeatedly advocates racism and sows division and hatred through his remarks passed in Parliament, then he is abusing his parliamentary privilege.
This year the hon Khompela and his henchman, the hon Cedrick Frolick, have already done this four times. A sports administrator was charged to appear before the Committee on Sport and was blatantly accused of, according to the committee, not caring when black people are being killed. When the president of Sascoc, Mr Mosh Mashishi, was insulted when it was said that Sascoc was simply being dominated by a group of whites and Indians, nothing was done.
A Member of Parliament who visited the committee was once again insulted and accused of having a white mentality and boorish manners. The chairperson and also Mr Frolick, did nothing about it. Yesterday, the hon Frolick labelled rugby a sport of criminals – he used the English term “delinquent sport” – and threatened to close their stadiums.
Hon Speaker, that is not acceptable. The FF Plus, today, is lodging a complaint of abuse of parliamentary privilege against these two members. We look forward to the outcome of this investigation and we hope you will spare no effort to restore the dignity of Parliament. I thank you. [Interjections.]]
DEATH OF TWENTY-FIVE AT BUSHBUCKRIDGE
(Member’s Statement)
Mr N MASHILE (ANC): Madam Speaker, the community of Bushbuckridge has in the past week come under a dark cloud when 25 hard-working people lost their lives. The ANC, together with its alliance partners, conveys its heartfelt condolences to the families and friends of those who lost their lives in this tragic accident.
We also want to applaud the timeous attention that Mayor Milton Morema and his dedicated councillors, MEC Jackson Mthembu and the President of the ANC, Comrade Jacob Zuma, paid to the injured and the bereaved family members.
This solidarity is welcomed by the people of Bushbuckridge during this difficult time. The community is holding a memorial service today and a mass funeral service is planned for Saturday.
As we have entered the wet season, we as the ANC would like to request all drivers on our roads to behave responsibly and drive slowly during wet conditions. We further want to warn drivers to observe road signs and rules as we approach the Christmas festive period.
We call upon all those who have financial resources to assist the bereaved as all of the deceased are the poorest of the poor. A trust account for this purpose has been opened at FNB, Hazyview, account number 62204137807. No matter how small your contributions are, they will have a huge impact in alleviating the financial burden experienced by these families. May they have strength to traverse this difficult time. I thank you. [Applause.]
INFIGHTING AMONG DEMOCRATIC ALLIANCE AND INDEPENDENT DEMOCRATS
(Member’s Statement)
Mnr S SIMMONS (NA): Speaker, die gebeure die afgelope tyd in ons land se politiek het aan ons gewys hoe selfs ’n regerende party se arrogansie in sy gesig kan ontplof, maar dit is nie net die regerende party wat met probleme sit nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Mr S SIMMONS (NA): Speaker, the events taking place in recent times in our country’s politics, showed us how even a ruling party’s arrogance could blow up in its face, but it is not only the ruling party which has its problems.]
This past weekend we saw one of South Africa’s biggest acts of desperation from the DA. They should have renamed themselves the “Desperate Alliance”. [Laughter.]
The Business Day earlier this year reported that the DA is struggling with infighting in its parliamentary caucus. This was followed by the City of Cape Town Councillor Grant Pascoe’s confirmation of the racist tendencies within the DA. The same goes for the ID. They are unfortunately not here today. They should call themselves the “Idiotic Democrats”. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]
Die OD het van dag een af probleme ervaar. Die onlangse bedanking van die voormalige onderburgemeester van Kaapstad, Charlotte Williams, oortuig my dat Mitchells Plain verlore is vir die OD. Die NA sal dit met graagte oorneem, dankie! (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[The ID has been experiencing problems since day one. The recent resignation of the former deputy mayor of Cape Town, Charlotte Williams, convinces me that Mitchells Plain is lost to the ID. The NA will gladly have it, thank you!]
Mrs D VAN DER WALT: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: If the hon member is referring to our caucus, can he just explain who he is representing because I don’t know that he has caucus members. [Laughter.]
Mnr S SIMMONS (NA): Aan die agb De Lille wil ek sê: as jy vir my iets wil sê, kom sê dit vir my persoonlik en nie vir my personeel in die gange nie. Die twee genoemde partye het nooit belanggestel om die voortslepende diskriminasie teen ons mense, onder andere die bruinmense en Indiërs, te ontbloot nie, maar ons mense sal antwoord by die stembus. Ek dank u. Applous.
[Mr S SIMMONS (NA): To the hon De Lille I would like to say: if you wish to tell me something, say it to me personally and not to my staff in the corridors. The two parties referred to were never interested in exposing the ongoing discrimination against our people, amongst others the coloureds and Indians, but our people will answer at the polls. I thank you. [Applause.]]
PROBLEMS IN THE ECONOMY
(Member’s Statement)
Mr L M GREEN (FD): Madam Speaker, Minister Trevor Manuel has assured us that South Africa is not facing a recession. However, he did warn that growth would not be as high as had been predicted.
I think he indicated figures of between 3% to 3,5%. Yet when the United States, which is the biggest economy, shows just as much as a fraction of a decline in its growth, it fears that a recession may be looming. And, in fact, that is what is happening in the US right now. Although America has the money to bail out its faltering economy, there are clear signs that it is in a recession.
We have similar problems which impact on the growth of our economy. I accept that the Minister of Finance said that technically speaking we are not in a recession, because we have not had two quarters of negative growth in succession.
However, our unemployment rate is far worse than that of the USA, Germany or Japan. We have had a number of years of unemployment in South Africa. So in that regard we can say that we have been in a recession for several years.
Although it is said that we are not technically in recession and that we can weather the global economic crisis, we must ask the Minister and the Treasury to give us an idea at what expense this would be to the general public.
If the Treasury insists that our economy is not in a recession … [Time expired.]
CLOSURE OF ABALONE FISHERY
(Member’s Statement)
Mr S E OPPERMAN (DA): Madam Speaker, it has been approximately one year since the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism decided to close the abalone fishery. It is now time for him to reconsider his decision. The decision to close the fishery has caused much hardship for coastal communities. The Minister promised a social relief plan for the fishers but this was not delivered.
This year in September, I asked the Minister in a parliamentary question whether his department’s efforts to reduce abalone poaching have been successful. The Minister said that poaching has been reduced. If this is true, then it is time to look again at whether the fishery can be opened in at least some of the zones.
I want to remind the Minister that the 2007-08 scientific report from the abalone working group stated that four zones could have small legal abalone fisheries. Yet he still closed all the fisheries. The report also says that if poaching could be brought under control in Zones A and B, the areas east of Hermanus, then those zones could support a large, legal abalone fishery. If the Minister says that the poaching of abalone has been reduced, then he must consider opening the abalone fisheries again. I thank you. [Applause.]
HOUSING DELIVERY
(Member’s Statement)
Nksz N B DAMBUZA (ANC): Enkosi Somlomo, umpoposho ungonikezelo ngezindlu. Urhulumente osezintanjeni okhokelwa ngumbutho wesizwe i-ANC ubambisene nemibutho yasekuhlaleni usebenzela ngalo lonke ilixa ukuba abantu bakuthi babenophahla phezu kweentloko zabo. Esi sesinye zezindululo mhla abantu beli bequlunqa umqulu wenkululeko ngonyaka we-1955.Ukukhawulelana nesi sindululo urhulumente wephondo leMpuma Koloni okhokelwa ngumbutho wesizwe iANC uye wanikezela ngezindlu ezingamakhulu amahlanu -500 kubahlali bengingqi ekuthiwa yiAddo. Abona bantu abaya kuthi baxhamle kolu nikezelo ngezindlu ngabantu abasebenza ezifama, emakhitshini, abantu abakhubazekileyo kunye nabantu abangaqeshwanga. Umbutho weSizwe iANC uqinisekisa abantu bakuthi, ukuthi siyakuwuqinisa umqolo ekuziseni iinkonzo zikarhulumente eluntwini, ezifana namanzi ugutyul’ondle kunye nezindlu. Ndiyabulela. (Translation of isiXhosa member’s statement follows.)
[Ms N B DAMBUZA (ANC): Madam Speaker, this statement is about the handing over of houses. The ANC-led government, in partnership with civic organisations, is striving all the time to provide people with a roof over their heads. This was one of the proposals made by the people of South Africa when they formulated the Freedom Charter in 1955. In the spirit of this proposal, the provincial government of the Eastern Cape, which is led by the ANC, handed over 500 houses to the people of Addo. The beneficiaries in this instance were farmworkers, domestic workers, the disabled and unemployed people. The ANC assures people that it will do everything in its power to provide them with government services, such as water, sewage and houses. Thank you.]
CHALLENGES FACING GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS DURING FLOODS
(Member’s Statements)
Mr N SINGH (IFP): Madam Speaker, the IFP is aware of the challenges faced by various government departments that are charged with the responsibility of reconstruction in flood ravaged and storm ravaged areas.
In an area in the Overberg 36 learners have missed their examinations. The Department of Water Affairs and Forestry is faced with the problem of dams bursting and causing floods. The Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism is faced with the problem of rehabilitating environments destroyed by heavy rains and storms.
The incidents that occurred last week in a place called Molweni Hillcrest in Kwazulu-Natal, where many homes were destroyed and lives lost within minutes of a tornado moving through the area, shows it leaves a lot to be desired when we have to talk about the way in which these RDP homes were constructed.
We, as the IFP, believe that before this happens again, there should be a national investigation into all post-1994 homes to ensure that the residents who occupy those homes live in a safe environment. Whilst we appreciate that global warming and other factors lead to these circumstances, people have a right to live in homes that they can feel safe in. Thank you.
PROMULGATION OF SOCIAL ASSISTANCE AMENDMENT ACT
(Member’s Statement)
Mr T M MASUTHA (ANC): Madam Speaker, on 14 July 2008 the President promulgated the Social Assistance Amendment Act, giving effect to changes in the law in order for men and women to qualify for social grants from the same age of 60 years, which is in line with the ANC Polokwane resolution of December 2007.
This amendment provides for men aged 63 with effect from 14 July 2008, men aged 61 with effect from 1 April 2009 and men aged 60 with effect from 1 April 2010 to qualify for social grants. We as the ANC, however, eagerly await government’s decision to raise the age of eligibility for the child support grant from under 14 years of age to 18 years of age so that it can be brought in line with another important Polokwane resolution and the South African Constitution in this regard, thereby extending that grant to an additional estimated 2,1 million poor children who desperately need this support.
Finally, we urge government to provide more resources towards the provision of social relief to those destitute families and individuals who desperately need this support and who may not qualify for the social grants especially during this period of giving; and we urge the Ministers of Social Development and Finance respectively, to expedite finalisation of government policy in this regard. Thank you.
FAILURE BY DEPARTMENTS TO DELIVER ON PROJECTIONS
(Member’s Statement)
Mr M SWART (DA): Madam Speaker, every year government departments compile and submit to Parliament their strategic plans for the ensuing year. These plans are beautifully printed, glossy documents setting out the key indicators to be achieved by departments. Unfortunately, one gets the impression that once the document has been compiled and submitted to Parliament it is filed away only to be retrieved for superficial updating the following year. Nothing or very little happens in-between to actually try to achieve the indicators set out in the strategic objectives.
Examples of this are aplenty, but allow me to give you just one example, that of the Department of Communications. In the 2008 Adjusted Estimates of National Expenditure document, the mid-year performance stages of the department is as follows: They indicated a number of Dinaledi schools to get Information and Communication Technologies connected - proposed 250, achieved zero; the percentage of public broadcaster infrastructure digitised as a percentage plan for population coverage - proposed 50%, achieved 0%; the number of reports on corporate governance of public entities – proposed two, achieved nil; the number of stadiums with ICT infrastructure for 2010 - proposed five stadiums, achieved nil; percentage operational submarine cables - proposed 25%, achieved 0%; and so the list goes on.
Departments continue to fail to deliver against their own performance indicators, but directors-general continue to receive performance bonuses. The DA calls on government, and particularly, the portfolio committees, to take their oversight function seriously and to take action against nonperforming departments and DGs. Thank you. [Applause.]
CONDOLENCES ON LIVES LOST DURING DISASTERS
(Member’s Statement)
Mr S L TSENOLI (ANC): Madam Speaker, the ANC wishes to convey its deepest condolences to all the families who have lost their loved ones during the recent disasters. We also convey our heart felt appreciation for the efforts of community development workers, ward committee members, volunteers, council and department officials - including public representatives - who took proactive steps to prevent and help mitigate the impact of these disasters in, for example, the Free State, the Western Cape, KwaZulu-Natal and other provinces.
The ANC further urges all stakeholders to prioritise disaster management, not only to defend life and limb, but also to protect the infrastructure that we have put in place.
The ANC also urges government at all levels, national and provincial and including local level, to improve its response time so that we really minimise the impact of these natural and manmade disasters when they do occur. Thank you. [Applause.]
PROMULGATION OF SOCIAL ASSISTANCE AMENDMENT ACT
(Minister’s Response)
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Madam Speaker, I would like to agree with the statement made by the hon Masutha. First of all, I think he must have heard that the Minister of Finance, in the budget statement that he made a week or two ago, has given out R500 million for social relief of distress and we only received that budget on Tuesday of this week. We are in the process of trying to ensure that it is delivered to those that need it and those that qualify. It will be good for all of us to work with the department and the SA Social Security Agency to ensure that almost everybody gets what he or she is entitled to.
Secondly, on the issue of children, six to 16, up to 18, Mr Masutha knows very well that we agreed on that issue as early as 2001, as a child is a child until he or she is 18 years old.
On the question of Polokwane, he knows very well that Polokwane happened only in December last year, and by that time the budget had already been agreed to. It will take some time before that budget is accepted by government. We hope that we’ll be able to work on that. For instance, on 1 January 2009, all children of about 15-years-old will receive a child support grant, and we will move, as I said in my budget speech, year by year until we are able to fulfil that for all the children. Thank you.
FAILURE OF SADC TO END MUGABE’S STRANGLEHOLD ON ZIMBABWE
(Minister’s Response)
The MINISTER FOR INTELLIGENCE: Chairperson, SADC’s extraordinary summit held in early November 2008 reconfirms its commitment to finding a solution to the situation in Zimbabwe. It seeks to ensure that the implementation of the September global agreement is expedited, and is also providing practical solutions to the remaining challenges in the allocation of the portfolios or Ministries.
Now the ball is in the court of the leaders of the parties involved in Zimbabwe to take the process forward by going back to Parliament and effecting the necessary legislative changes so that they can implement the agreement.
Hon Meshoe has suggested that this matter should be elevated to the UN. It is not very clear what the UN could do because, really, it is the people of Zimbabwe who should be tasked with ensuring that they resolve their own problems with all the assistance they are getting from SADC for now. I thank you. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A C Nel): Hon Members, could we please have some quiet. I do not know whether it is just because my left ear is more sensitive than my right one, but most of the noise seems to be emanating from there. Could we please keep the noise level down? [Interjections.] Please hon members, keep the noise level down.
Mrs S A SEATON: Chairperson, I think your right ear has already been deafened. [Laughter.]
PROBLEMS IN THE ECONOMY
(Minister’s Response)
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Dr R H Davies): Chairperson, I wanted to respond to the statement made by the hon Louis Green, but since he has left the House, I thought that perhaps after that Sarah Palin-style exegesis on economics it is probably just as well. But for his benefit later on, as well as for anybody else’s, the facts are as follows. The IMF, which has actually consistently under-called the extent of the economic crisis, has said that next year the developed world as a whole will be in recession, that is to say, their economies will contract for two quarters.
The developing world as a whole will not go into recession, but will suffer reduced growth. I think where we need to be very clear is that we are not saying that because we won’t be in a recession next year that we won’t be seriously affected by an economic crisis, one which is not of our making and has its origins in the USA. We are going to be affected by the decline in economic growth in the world as a whole; the decline in demand and export opportunities and prices for mineral products as well as a decline in flows of capital particularly to emerging markets.
What this requires of us is that we are going to have to redouble our efforts under much more difficult circumstances to defend our infrastructure investment programmes, industrial policy direction programmes and our small business programmes. All of them are going to have to unfold under much more difficult circumstances.
That is where the real economic policy debate would be. Also, I rather suspect that the voters of the country would respond in the same way as they did to Sarah Palin - they will roundly reject those politicians who stand up and have nothing sensible to say about these very important matters. I thank you very much. [Applause.]
SIXTEEN DAYS OF ACTIVISM FOR NO VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN AND CHILDREN
CAMPAIGN
(Minister’s Response)
The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I would like to commend the Safety and Security and the Justice clusters for doing what they are doing. They are indeed committing themselves to an active programme with communities throughout the country in terms of promoting the 16 days of activism. As you might well be aware, the programme itself is actually a 365-day programme.
The Department of Justice and Constitutional Development is committed to the theme of the programme. In fact, it anchors its programme on converting our homes into havens of safety and peace, given the high incidence of social crimes. As such we would, amongst other things, be promoting a knowledge and awareness of domestic violence and its implications for society.
We certainly take heart from the fact that a collective - the committee of safety and security, as well as Justice and Constitutional Development - is going to be promoting the importance of the victim’s charter throughout the country. We believe that this is as an important task and responsibility that Parliament is assuming. We certainly do wish to express our gratitude to Parliament for taking these important issues to our people so that we could indeed make a difference in the lives of our people. I thank you. [Applause.]
CALL FOR OUTCOMES-BASED EDUCATION CURRICULUM TO BE REVIEWED
(Minister’s Response)
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Chairperson, I really cannot understand the DA’s call for an urgent review of the curriculum. As they are supposed to know, the curriculum has indeed been reviewed by the Chisholm Review Committee in the year 2000. The product of this revian is the National Curriculum Statement that had been welcomed by all serious commentators and role-players at the time.
The result has been better curriculum design and specific guidelines to schools. Of course we are facing many problems in education, and the implementation of the new curriculum is one of the tougher challenges. We acknowledge that the implementation and training have not been smooth and that we as policy-makers have not always responded adequately to the difficulties that teachers and administrators have faced in implementing these immense changes. We will, indeed, intensify support and training in 2009.
The key challenges are teacher development and support, resources such as good textbooks and user-friendly guidelines for teachers. We are working to meet these needs and address the gaps that hinder quality learning and teaching for all. We are also working to enhance the curriculum skills of relevant officials. We will continue to work at ironing out the problems and improving schooling. But throwing out the curriculum and going back to the past design will not give us the success which South Africa must achieve.
Eerder as om te volg wat in die ANC gebeur as ons die probleme erken en sê ons gaan dit aanspreek, moet die DA ons eerder help, saam met al die ander partye en die hele gemeenskap, om seker te maak dat ons hierdie kurrikulum instel op ’n wyse wat tot almal se voordeel is. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Rather than follow what happens in the ANC when we admit to the problems and say that we will address them, the DA should assist us, together with all the other parties and the entire community, to ensure that we implement this curriculum in a manner that will be beneficial to everyone.]
So, let’s mend it, not end it. Thank you. [Applause.]
NATIONAL PROSECUTING AUTHORITY AMENDMENT BILL
(Consideration of Report)
There was no debate.
Declarations of vote:
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Chairperson, we stand here today listening to the ANC ring the death knell of the Scorpions only because they can. This utterly self-serving move is being made in the total absence of any cogent argument from them as to why the Directorate. Special Operations should be disbanded and the only logical conclusion is that they are motivated by the desire to protect ANC members from any current and future corruption investigations.
We all know yet another member of the ANC NEC bit the dust last night. Communist and ANC Secretary-General Gwede Mantashe has stated that, “The only thing that the DA and the Scorpions have in common is their persistent hatred of the ANC.” This makes it crystal clear that the ANC top structure opposes the DSO on the grounds of political expediency and that this decision has absolutely nothing to do with improving the criminal justice system.
We must factor in that the charges of corruption and defeating the ends of justice would not have been brought against National Police Commissioner Jackie Selebi had it not been for investigations carried out by the DSO.
The same is true in the case of the indictment that has been brought against the ANC President Jacob Zuma, which includes the taking of 783 bribes to the total value of R4,2 million over a ten-year period.
Now the ANC’s resolution to disband the DSO not only displays a flagrant disregard for public opinion, but also ignores the Khampepe Commission recommendation that it be retained in its current form. South Africa cannot afford to be without an independent unit capable of conducting complex and high-profile investigations and seeing them through to successful prosecution.
The DSO is the last remaining institution that could possibly be effective in exposing corruption and dealing with complex investigations such as those related to organised crime. If we lose the DSO, we will lose this ability and allow criminal syndicates to contribute even more to our already dangerously high levels of organised crime. And, simultaneously, we will lose international credibility as investors would see that the government is not serious in combating crime, while globally crime fighters will shake their heads in utter disbelief at such a shortsighted step.
The DSO differs from the SAPS in that it makes use of a troika of activities, intelligence gathering, criminal investigation and prosecution taking place within one team. This powerful combination of skills and expertise, led by a qualified and experienced prosecutor, means that the DSO is able to conduct investigations that are solid and stand up in court. This is the reason behind its excellent conviction record of 94%.
The DSO is effective because of its prosecution approach. It’s the very heart of the DSO. Now you intend to pull out the few staff members, who are the cream of the crop left in the unit you set out to destroy, and move them into the SAPS with its dismal prosecution levels. Not one of you has told the citizens of South Africa why you are so set on destroying such a success story instead of expanding it and having the SAPS learn from it while working with it.
Adv P S SWART: Chairperson, today, again, we witness the final nail in the coffin of the Scorpions. The ACDP has been at the forefront in opposing the disbanding of the Scorpions. The matter we supported was to accept set recommendations of the Khampepe Commission and to keep the unit separate from the SAPS.
In our view the decision to disband the Scorpions was not motivated by the Scorpions having been unsuccessful. It was rather motivated by the fact that the Scorpions have been too successful, particularly in its investigation of high-ranking ANC members. We are mindful of the Scorpions’ shortcomings, however, but believe that these shortcomings were adequately addressed by the Khampepe Commission’s recommendations and those should have been incorporated into legislation.
We are extremely concerned regarding the impact that this disbanding will have on complex cases. We have already pointed out the Fidentia case with 73 000 applicants, orphans and widows, whom are affected by this case. As we’ve said, organised crime is a serious threat to South Africa; if left unchecked it could undermine the integrity of our whole country, especially since it promotes all facets of life and undermines government systems, including the whole criminal justice system.
Now, to illustrate this point, the Acting Head of the NPA warns that the collapse of just a few of the Scorpions’ cases could bring South Africa’s criminal justice system into disrepute; and the reckless disbanding of the Scorpions, as we are doing today, could devastate the whole criminal justice system. This is not our view but that of the Head of the National Prosecuting Authority.
At the very least, as we recommended, an interim investigating directorate should have been set up, as requested by the NPA, as a transitional process to ensure that certain complex and controversial cases such as Fidentia should not be compromised. It is outrageous that the Scorpions are being disbanded, in our view, to protect senior ANC members from being investigated, particularly considering the escalating and highly complex nature of organised crime in our country, which affects all of our constituencies, communities and members.
We cannot afford to lose highly experienced and trained investigators and analysts who would not be prepared to accept posts in the SAPS and who are now being drawn to the private sector.
To conclude, the Khampepe Commission stated in no uncertain terms that … [Interjections.] It is inconceivable, friends and colleagues, in other words, it’s unimaginable for a legislature to see fit to repeal the provisions of the NPA Act that relate to the activities and location of the DSO. What the majority party is doing today is what the Judicial Commission of Inquiry considered inconceivable in view of the high crime rate in South Africa. Therefore, the ACDP will not support this Bill. I thank you.
Mnu V B NDLOVU (IFP): Sihlalo, igama lami nginguVelaphi wakwaNdlovu. Sihlalo, neNdlu eHloniphekile, cha, umthetho lo esingeke siwusekele, ngalezi zizathu: Okokuqala, sasho sathi kunesidingo sokuthi kufuneka sibenze bakwazi ukusebenza, hayi i-Hollywood style kodwa singabaqedi. Okwesibili, siyazi ukuthi kwenzelwani lokhu okwenziwayo. Ngakusho nangaleliya langa sivota sivotela wona lo Mthethosivivinywa, ukuthi noma singathini thina maqembu aphikisayo, uma sebenqumile osibanibani, kusuke sebenqumile. Ukuthi banquma kuphi, kusuke sebenqumile … unganikini ikhanda Mhlonishwa ngoba ngizosuke ngikubize ngegama lapha.
Ngakho-ke uma sebekwenzile lokho, kusuke sebekwenzile lokho. Okwesithathu, kuyinkinga kakhulu kabi ukuthi sithi: into esebenzayo ayisebenzi siyibulale nokuthi siyilungise. Kufana nokuzala ingane ekhaya uyikhululise, uma ingalungile uyakhuluma nayo, uhlale nayo phansi ukwazi ukuyiyala yenze umsebenzi wayo ngokufanelekile. Kepha awuthi ngoba nakhu akuyona eyakho noma mhlawumbe awunandaba nayo obese ubeka ikhanda ngale bese uyinqamula intamo. Ngakho-ke asikwazi ukukwenza lokho, ngeke siwamukele lomthetho noma ningangibhekisa phansi ngekhanda. Ngeke kwenzeke lokho. (Translation of isiZulu speech follows.)
[Mr V B NDLOVU (IFP): Chairperson, my name is Velaphi Ndlovu. Chairperson, and this august House, we will never vote in favour of this Bill because of the following reasons: Firstly, we said that we need to employ people who know how to execute their duties, and not the ones who use Hollywood style. Secondly, we know why things are run in this fashion. I did mention even on the day we were voting on this Bill that, whatever we say as opposition parties does not matter; when the ruling party has decided upon something, no correspondence can be entered into. It does matter what they have decided upon, the fact that they have made their decision stands… do not shake your head hon member, because I will call you by name.
Therefore, once they do something it cannot be changed. Thirdly, it is a major problem for us to say that we rule out something, saying that it is not working when we have not tried to correct it. This is like bringing a child into this world; if the child is misbehaving you talk and offer guidance to it so that it can behave as expected. You do not behead a child because it is not yours or because you do not care about it. Likewise we cannot do that here, hence we vote against this Bill. You can point at me with your heads. It will never be passed.]
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Voorsitter, volgens Hansard, op die geleentheid van die instelling van die Skerpioene, het niemand minder as die agb Adjunkminister van Justisie, in sy toespraak, eintlik ’n aanprysing gehad vir die politieke partye in hierdie Huis wat politiek nie deel maak van die bekamping van misdaad nie. Tog, as dit kom by die ontbinding van die Skerpioene, dan is dit juis die ANC wat ’n politieke besluit geneem het om die Skerpioene te ontbind.
As ons byvoorbeeld gaan kyk na die 2002 nasionale konferensie van die ANC, sien ons dat hulle aanprysing gehad het vir die Skerpioene. Wat het die ANC destyds gedoen? Hulle het by hul nasionale konferensie gespog oor hoe goed hulle regeer, deur die prestasies van die Skerpioene op te haal. Daar vertel hulle vir die afgevaardigdes dat dit is hoe misdaad eintlik behoort beveg te word.
By hulle 2007 konferensie kom die ANC egter met ’n politieke besluit wat hulle nie eens by die konferensie motiveer nie. Hulle neem net ’n besluit en verklaar dat die Skerpioene ontbind moet word, omdat dit grondwetlik verkeerd is om Skerpioene te hê, omdat die Grondwet bepaal dat daar slegs een polisiediens mag wees.
Maar die ANC weet mos hulle is verkeerd. Regter Khampepe het mos baie duidelik bevind en beslis dat dit nie ongrondwetlik is om die Skerpioene as deel van die Nasionale Vervolgingsgesag te gehad het nie. Daarom sê die VF Plus dat die ontbinding van die Skerpioene ’n politieke besluit was wat gebaseer was op ’n verkeerde veronderstelling van die interpretasie van die Grondwet van Suid-Afrika.
Ek wil vir u sê dat die sukses van die Skerpioene juis hul vervolgingsgedrewe ondersoeke is. Hulle kon daardie ondersoeke loods in uiters ingewikkelde, gesofistikeerde sake, want die misdadigers van Suid- Afrika het meer en meer gesofistikeerd geraak.
Ek wil vandag vir u sê dat die nuwe agb Minister van Veiligheid en Sekuriteit die regte geluide maak. Dit wat hy in die openbaar en vir die publiek sê, klink reg, asof hy regtig misdaad wil bekamp. Maar, hy het een groot probleem. Ek wil voorspel dat hy in die voetspore van sy voorganger, mnr Charles Ngqakula, gaan volg, deurdat hy dink hy iets kan doen, maar die beleid van die ANC gaan hom eenvoudig dwing om toe te laat dat misdaad eintlik net floreer.
Die besluit om die Skerpioene te ontbind het gewys dat u van die ANC, die regerende party, nie ernstig is om misdaad te bekamp nie. Daarom was dit ’n fout. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, according to Hansard, in his speech on the occasion of the establishment of the Scorpions, no less a person than the hon Deputy Minister of Justice, actually commended the political parties in this House for not making politics a part of the combating of crime. Yet, when it comes to disbanding the Scorpions, it is in fact the ANC who have taken a political decision to disband the Scorpions.
If we take a look at the ANC’s national conference in 2002, we see that they had praise for the Scorpions. What did the ANC do back then? At their national conference they bragged about how well they were governing by bringing up the achievements of the Scorpions. They were telling delegates there that this is how crime ought to be combated.
But at their 2007 conference the ANC came with a political decision which they didn’t even motivate at the conference. They just took a decision and declared that the Scorpions had to be disbanded because it was constitutionally incorrect to have the Scorpions, as the Constitution stated that there should be only one police force.
But of course the ANC knows that they are wrong. Judge Khampepe indeed clearly found and ruled that it was not unconstitutional to have the Scorpions as part of the National Prosecuting Authority.
The FF Plus therefore says that the disbanding of the Scorpions was a political decision based upon an incorrect assumption of the interpretation of the Constitution of South Africa.
I want to tell you that the success of the Scorpions lay in their prosecution-driven investigations. They could institute those inquiries into extremely complicated, sophisticated cases, because the South African criminals were becoming more and more sophisticated.
Today I want to tell you that the new hon Minister of Safety and Security is making the right noises. What he is saying in public sounds right, as if he truly means to combat crime. But he has one big problem. I want to predict that he will follow in the footsteps of his predecessor, Mr Charles Ngqakula, by thinking that he is in a position to do something, but the policy of the ANC is simply going to force him into allowing crime actually to flourish.
The decision to disband the Scorpions has proven that you of the ANC, the ruling party, are not serious about fighting crime. That is why it was a mistake. I thank you.]
Ms M M SOTYU: Chairperson, I won’t repeat what we said here when we were debating these two pieces of legislation.
Dit is baie interessant om ’n lid te wees van die ANC, want as mense hoof- of maagpyne kry, is die oorsaak altyd die ANC. [Being a member of the ANC is very interesting, because when people get headaches or bellyaches, the cause is always the ANC.]
Asizi kukuphinda esakutshoyo apha, baba uNdlovu, ukuba akukho nto intsha enize ngayo niliqela eliphikisayo. Nisathetha laa nto naniyithethile. Kuzanyiwe ngazo zonke iindlela ukuqinisekisa ukuba lo mthetho asiwuphumezi. Imibutho ephikisayo izame iinkundla zamatyala isebenzisa abantu bangaphandle, ibahlawula ukuze basise ezinkundleni zamatyala, yoyisakala. Izame ukufakela amagatya athile kule Mithetho iYilwayo mbini, kwiBhunga laMaphondo leSizwe. Sawakhaba loo magatya. Ngexesha esasithatha isigqibo apha kule Palamente siyi-ANC, sikunye nani, sayibeka elubala into yokuba asizi kuthenga buso.ngesigqibo sethu. Into engamandla apha kukuba silwe ubundlobongela , hayi ukuzithengisa. Ukuba kukho iqela elithi apha lo Mthetho uYilwayo siwuqulunqileyo siyi-ANC uza kwenza ukuba abantu bangabi ngakuthi kuba benoluvo lokuba awulunganga, loo nto siya kuyibona kulo nyaka uzayo ngoApreli. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[We are not going to repeat what we said here, hon Ndlovu, but you are not bringing anything new to the table as the opposition party. You are simply repeating what you had said before. Opposition parties tried by all means to make sure that we do not pass this Bill. They tried to stop us, using people from civil society by paying them to take us to court, and failed. They also tried to insert some clauses in these two Bills, in the National Council of Provinces. We rejected them. When we took a decision in this regard as the ANC, and other parties, we mentioned that we did so without fear or favour. The important thing here is to fight crime, not to market ourselves. Any party that claims that the Bill proposed by the ANC will make people turn against it because they will regard the Bill as not good, we will see about that next year in April.]
As the chairperson of the safety and security portfolio committee, it is so nice to have members of the opposition, especially the hon Kohler-Barnard.
Hayi, yimbongi leya! Uyakwazi ukuyenza intsomi emini. Ndiyakonwabela kakhulu ukuba kwikomiti enaye. Uya kuze aniculele, athethe ade agqibe ningakhange nimve ukuba utheni na; njengangokuya ebethetha apha. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[My, what a poet! She can tell folktales in daytime. I enjoy being in the same committee as her. She would talk - kind of singing - and talk, without making much sense, like she was doing here.]
The only problem she has is that when you talk about the national commissioner, she is not concerned about the position of the national commissioner. In her mind, you are always referring to Jackie Selebi when you talk about the national commissioner. [Interjections.] It is only Jackie Selebi. [Interjections.] There is no case whatsoever that is being dealt with … … eza kuvele iphelele emoyeni. Onke amatyala aza kuphathwa ngokufanayo, kubandakanywa nelikaJackie Selebi. Ukuba unengxaki noJackie Selebi, hamba uye kuyisombulula noJackie Selebi, ungazi nayo apha. Ndiyabulela, Sihlalo. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[… which will disappear in the air. All the cases will be treated equally including the one of Jackie Selebi. If you have a problem with Jackie Selebi, go to him and solve it, do not come here with it. Thank you, Chairperson.]
Division demanded.
Question put: That the National Prosecuting Authority Amendment Bill, as amended, be passed.
House divided:
AYES - 204: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Asiya, S E; Baloyi, M R; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bloem, D V; Bonhomme, T J; Booi, M S; Burgess, C V; Cele, M A; Chalmers, J; Chikunga, L S; Chohan, F I; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Davies, R H ; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Direko, I W; Dithebe, S L; Dlali, D M; Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D C; Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M H; Fihla, N B; Frolick, C T; Gabanakgosi, P S; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gaum, A H; Gcwabaza, N E ; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Godongwana, E; Gololo, C L; Gore, V C; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M; Gumede, M M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A ; Hendrickse, P A C; Hogan, B A; Huang, S; Jacob, A C; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, C B; Johnson, M; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kasienyane, O R; Kekana, C D; Kgabi, L M; Khauoe, M K; Khumalo, K K; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Mabaso, S B; Mabena, D C; Madasa, Z L; Madella, A F; Maduma, L D; Mahlaba, T L; Mahlawe, N M; Mahomed, F; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Makgate, M W; Malahlela, M J; Maloney, L; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, D K; Manana, M N S; Martins, B A D; Maserumule, F T; Mashigo, R J; Mashile, B L; Mashishi, A C; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P M; Matlala, M H; Matsemela, M L; Matsomela, M J J ; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Mbili, M E; Mdaka, N M; Meruti, M V; Mfeketo, N C; Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mkongi, B M; Mnguni, B A; Mnyandu, B J; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng , T R; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mohlaloga, M R; Moiloa-Nqodi, S B; Mokoena, A D; Mokoto, N R; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Moloto, K A; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morkel, C M; Morobi, D M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Mosala, B G; Moss, M I; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpahlwa, M B; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mzondeki, M J G; Nash, J H; Ndlazi, Z A; Ndzanga, R A; Nene, M J ; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngcobo, N W; Ngculu, L V J; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, W; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nogumla, R Z; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, R S; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, M D; Nyambi, A J; Nyembe, K K M; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Phala, M J; Pieterse, R D; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C P M; Rasmeni, S M; Schippers, J; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E A; Seadimo, M D; Sefularo, M ; Sekgobela, S P; Selau, J G; September, C C; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhidla, N N; Siboza, S ; Sikakane, M R; Sizani, S; Skhosana, D N; Skhosana, W M; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Swanson-Jacobs, J; Thomson, B; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van Wyk, A; Vundisa, S S; Wang, Y; Wright, F J; Zulu, B Z.
NOES - 55: Bekker, Dr H J; Bici, J; Blanché, J P I; Boinamo, G G; Botha, C-S; Camerer, S M; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Ellis, M J; George, D T; Groenewald, P J; Joubert, L K; Julies, I F; Kalyan, S V; King, R J; Kohler-Barnard, D; Labuschagne, L B; Lebenya, P; Marais, S J F; Mfundisi, I S; Minnie, K J; Morgan, G R; Mpontshane, A M; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Ndlovu, V B; Nel, A H; Nkabinde, N C; Rabie, P J; Schmidt, H C; Seaton, S A; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Sibuyana, M W; Sigcau , S N; Singh, N; Skosana, M B; Smuts, M; Spies, W D; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Swathe, M M; Trent, E W; Van Der Walt, D; Vos, S C; Waters, M; Weber, H; Woods, G G; Zikalala, C N Z.
Question agreed to. Bill, as amended, accordingly passed.
SOUTH AFRICAN POLICE SERVICE AMENDMENT BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)
There was no debate.
Declarations of vote:
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Chairperson, from the outset the DSO had been envisaged as a specialised unit to be independent of SAPS, and certainly not to replace it.
Now there has also been a Constitutional Court ruling that the term “single police” does not mean one police service. Furthermore, the Khampepe Commission found that the DSO should remain in the NPA. Given the international precedent for the DSO, as well as its impressive list of achievements, one wonders why the question to disband the DSO even arises.
Indeed, hon Carrim agreed with me that had the relevant Ministers for Justice and Constitutional Development and of Safety and Security, now safely ensconced elsewhere, actually done their jobs, we would never have had to go through the past 11-month debacle.
The DA said shutting down the DSO would drive the bulk of their specialists into the private sector, which it has and that we, as a country, would be collectively worse off for having lost the DSO without SAPS succeeding in improving its skills base. Indeed, we are about to do that.
Much has been made of intelligence gathering by the DSO and the process of their investigations, as though it were a crime but, of course, in terms of section 179(2) of the Constitution provision is made for an intelligence- gathering function for the DSO.
Is the solution for the executive’s manifest failure …
Mr L T LANDERS: Chairperson, on a point of order: Is it allowed that members should essentially repeat themselves? Essentially, the speech, thus far, is a repetition of everything that was said in the earlier debate.
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: I have not repeated a single word, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A C Nel): Continue.
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: I will continue, thank you. Much has been made of the matter but, of course, in terms of section 179(2) of the Constitution provision was made for an intelligence-gathering function for the DSO. Now, is the solution for the executive’s manifest failure to address the few problems, highlighted in the months of self-evaluation by the unit, the fault of the DSO?
Is the solution to disband the DSO, to remove all of the elements that rendered it so successful; is that what we are going to do? Despite the fact that the ministerial committee was a de facto entity from 2000, it did not meet. The Ministers failed to do their job. The mess is not the fault of the DSO. It is the fault of the executive to fulfil their responsibilities and the DSO is being blamed for their failure.
You have ignored the very reasons for creating the DSO, as an elite unit outside SAPS, in the first place. To even suggest that you intend to pool highly qualified specialists, who are civilians, into a ranking structure is a folly of monumental proportions and has resulted in a mass exodus of skilled personnel.
The SAPS has a very poor track record of anticorruption initiatives managed from within, with little or no progress or results. In addition, SAPS closed down the successful anticorruption unit in 2002 – thank you, Jackie Selebi – on the grounds of a lack of accountability and transformation. This closure created a void that the ICD has not been able to fill.
By combining all anticorruption authorities under one roof, SAPS becomes especially vulnerable to corruption from within. Who will police the police? More importantly, who will police the politicians? The answer is: No one. That, hon members, is what you are achieving here today.
Mnu V B NDLOVU: Sihlalo, asiwusekeli lo mthetho ngalezi zizathu, akusho ukuthi yingoba amaphoyisa emabi. Cha! Asikhulumi ngamaphoyisa lapha, ungizwe kahle Nyambose. Asikhulumi futhi ngalawa maphoyisa asebenzayo sikhuluma ngaloku okwenziwa uKhongolose kulawa amanye amaphoyisa. Ngakho kufuneka kucace ukuthi asiwusekeli ngalezondlela, hhayi ngoba kukhona amaphoyisa amabi kwamanye. Laba bantu ngiyabona badle kakhulu ngelantshi.[Uhleko.] Okwesibili-ke Mhlonishwa kufuneka kucace ukuthi ngisakuphinda loku engikushilo yikuthi ingane mayonile ibekwa phansi kukhulunywe nayo, ayinqunywa ikhanda. Ngakho-ke uma kwenzeka kanje sesiyohlangana lapho siyohlangana khona bakithi. Asiwusekeli lo mthetho. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu speech follows.)
[Mr V B NDLOVU: Hon Chairperson, we do not support this Bill for these reasons: it is not that the police are bad. No! We are not talking about the police here; please understand me Nyambose. And we are not talking about those police who are doing their work, but we are talking about what the ANC is doing to other police. Therefore, it must be clear that we are not supporting this Bill due to those reasons, and not because there are those police who are worse than others. I can see that these hon members have eaten a lot during lunch. [Laughter.]
Secondly, hon Chairperson, it should be clear that I reiterate what I said before that, if the child has done something wrong, you sit down and talk with that child, you do not behead her. Therefore, if things happen like this, then we shall meet hon members. We do not support this Bill. Thank you.]
Mr L T LANDERS: Chairperson, may I refer you to section 179(2) of our Constitution which says the following –
The prosecuting authority has the power to institute criminal proceedings on behalf of the state, and to carry out any necessary functions incidental to instituting criminal proceedings.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A C Nel): Mr Landers, are you rising on a point of order?
Mr L T LANDERS: I am, Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A C Nel): What is the point of order?
Mr L T LANDERS: Was the hon Kohler-Barnard misleading the House when she said section 179(2) gave the DSO the authority to collect intelligence?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A C Nel): Mr Landers, I’ll study Hansard and rule accordingly. Are there any further declarations?
Ms M M SOTYU: Chairperson, Izama-zama ayisebenzi namhlanje. [Chairperson, those who try to bypass procedures will not succeed today.]
We were dealing with amendments here from the NCOP. It seems as if Members of Parliament from the safety and security and justice committees have decided to take this opportunity to repeat what they have said before.
We have confidence in the SAPS, Ms Kohler-Barnard. You don’t, but we have confidence in them. Your problem is – I repeat – you are obsessed with Jackie Selebi. That is your problem. You are obsessed with Jackie Selebi. You don’t care about any other thing that is happening; your problem is Jackie Selebi. [Interjections.] Uthule wena andikwazi nokukwazi ke! [You shut up! I don’t even know you.]
Chairperson, what we are saying is that the time is up. We are passing these laws; we are going to fight crime in this country.
Asisayi kuphatha sijonge ngasemva sizakuphatha sijonge phambili. Enkosi. [We are going to fight crime going forward, not going backward. Thank you.]
Mr M J ELLIS: Chairperson, on a point of order: On two occasions during the past few minutes the hon Deputy Minister Mr De Lange has referred to Ms Kohler-Barnard as a liar, and that, sir, is unparliamentary.
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, on a point of order: The statement that the hon Kohler-Barnard made about the intelligence gathering is so palpably wrong and is so factually challenged that one can do nothing other than call her a liar. [Interjections.]
Mr M J ELLIS: Chairperson, on a point of order!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A C Nel): Wait, we are already entertaining one point of order. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: If you will just keep quiet then I’ll answer. Just sit down. [Interjections.]
Mr M J ELLIS: No Chairperson, the point of order is that … [Interjections.] The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Sit down! [Interjections.]
Mr M J ELLIS: No, you sit down! [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A C Nel): No, Mr Ellis, resume your seat! I’m listening to … [Interjections.]
Mr M J ELLIS: Chairperson, you are allowing him to make a statement. The truth of the matter is … [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A C Nel): Mr Ellis, resume your seat! [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Mr Ellis, it’s after lunch so you are very excited again. You obviously had something for lunch.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A C Nel): No, Deputy Minister, please address the issue.
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chair, I withdraw calling her a liar.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A C Nel): The hon Deputy Minister withdraws. Division demanded.
Question put: That the South African Police Service Amendment Bill, as amended, be passed.
House divided:
AYES - 209: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya, S E; Baloyi, M R; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bloem, D V; Bonhomme, T J; Booi, M S; Burgess, C V; Cele, M A; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan, F I; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Davies, R H ; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Direko, I W; Dithebe, S L; Dlali, D M; Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D C; Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M H; Fihla, N B; Frolick, C T; Gabanakgosi, P S; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gaum, A H; Gcwabaza, N E ; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gololo, C L; Gore, V C; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M; Gumede, M M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A ; Hendrickse, P A C; Hogan, B A; Huang, S; Jacob, A C; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, C B; Johnson, M; Kalako, M U; Kasienyane, O R; Kekana, C D; Kgabi, L M; Khauoe, M K; Khoarai, L P; Khumalo, K K; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Mabaso, S B; Mabena, D C; Madasa, Z L; Madella, A F; Maduma, L D; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlaba, T L; Mahlawe, N M; Mahomed, F; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Makgate, M W; Malahlela, M J; Maloney, L; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, D K; Manana, M N S; Martins, B A D; Maserumule, F T; Mashigo, R J; Mashile, B L; Mashishi, A C; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P M; Matlala, M H; Matsemela, M L; Matsomela, M J J ; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Mbili, M E; Mdaka, N M; Meruti, M V; Mfeketo, N C; Mkhize, Z S; Mkongi, B M; Mnguni, B A; Mnyandu, B J; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng , T R; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mohlaloga, M R; Moiloa-Nqodi, S B; Mokoena, A D; Mokoto, N R; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Moloto, K A; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morkel, C M; Morobi, D M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Mosala, B G; Moss, M I; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpahlwa, M B ; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mzondeki, M J G; Nash, J H; Ndlazi, Z A; Ndzanga, R A; Nene, M J ; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngcobo, N W; Ngculu, L V J; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, W; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J ; Njobe, M A A; Nogumla, R Z; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, R S; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N ; Nyambi, A J; Nyembe, K K M; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Phala, M J; Pieterse, R D; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C P M; Rasmeni, S M; Schippers, J; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E A; Seadimo, M D; Sefularo, M ; Sekgobela, S P; Selau, J G; September, C C; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhidla, N N; Siboza, S ; Sikakane, M R; Sizani, S; Skhosana, D N; Skhosana, W M; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Sunduza, T B; Surty, M E; Swanson-Jacobs, J; Thomson, B; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van Wyk, A; Vundisa, S S; Wang, Y; Wright, F J; Zulu, B Z.
NOES - 55: Bekker, Dr H J; Bici, J; Boinamo, G G; Botha, C-S; Camerer, S M; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; George, D T; Joubert, L K; Julies, I F; Kalyan, S V; King, R J; Kohler-Barnard, D; Labuschagne, L B; Lebenya, P; Marais, S J F; Mdlalose, M M; Mfundisi, I S; Minnie, K J; Morgan, G R; Mpontshane, A M; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Ndlovu, V B; Nel, A H; Nkabinde, N C; Rabie, P J; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Schmidt, H C; Seaton, S A; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Sibuyana, M W; Sigcau , S N; Singh, N; Skosana, M B; Smuts, M; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Swathe, M M; Trent, E W; Van Der Walt, D; Vos, S C; Waters, M; Weber, H; Woods, G G; Zikalala, C N Z.
Question agreed to.
Bill, as amended, accordingly passed.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A C Nel): I’ve been informed that the Third Order will stand over.
Third Order stood over.
RECOMMENDATION FOR APPOINTMENT OF CANDIDATES TO PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION
(Consideration of Report)
There was no debate.
Question put: That the House approves the nomination of Ms N J Mxakato- Diseko, Mr M J Malahlela and Ms S S Nkosi to fill the positions of commissioners on the Public Service Commission and the approval of Mr G P Bogatsu and Mr D van Wyk as supplementary nominations.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A C Nel): Hon members, in terms of section 196(8)(a) of the Constitution, the persons nominated for appointment to serve on the Public Service Commission must be approved by a majority of members of the Assembly. Although a division has not been demanded, members are required to record their support for the motion.
AYES - 248: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Baloyi,
M R; Bekker, Dr H J; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhoola, R B; Blanché, J P I;
Bloem, D V; Boinamo, G G; Bonhomme, T J; Booi, M S; Botha, C-S; Burgess,
C V; Cele, M A; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan, F I;
Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Delport, J T;
Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Direko, I W; Dithebe, S L; Dlali, D M;
Doidge, G Q M; Dreyer, A M; Du Toit, D C; Dudley, C; Ellis, M J;
Fankomo, F C; Farrow, S B; Fazzie, M H; Fihla, N B; Frolick, C T;
Gabanakgosi, P S; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gaum, A H; Gcwabaza, N E ; George, D
T; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gololo, C L; Gore, V C; Greyling, C H F;
Gumede, D M; Gumede, M M; Gxowa, N B; Hanekom, D A ; Hendrickse, P A C;
Hogan, B A; Huang, S; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, C B; Johnson,
M; Joubert, L K; Julies, I F; Kalako, M U; Kalyan, S V; Kasienyane, O R;
Kekana, C D; Kgabi, L M; Khauoe, M K; Khumalo, K K; Khunou, N P; King, R
J; Kohler-Barnard, D; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kotwal, Z;
Labuschagne, L B; Landers, L T; Lebenya, P; Lee, T D; Lekgetho, G;
Likotsi, M T; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I;
Luthuli, A N; Mabaso, S B; Mabena, D C; Madasa, Z L; Madella, A F;
Maduma, L D; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlaba, T L; Mahlawe, N M; Mahomed, F;
Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Makgate, M W; Maloney, L;
Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, D K; Manana, M N S; Marais, S J F; Martins, B A
D; Maserumule, F T; Mashigo, R J; Mashile, B L; Mashishi, A C; Masutha,
T M; Mathebe, P M; Matlala, M H; Matsemela, M L; Matsomela, M J J ;
Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Mdaka, N M; Meruti, M V; Mfeketo, N C;
Mfundisi, I S; Minnie, K J; Mkhize, Z S; Mkongi, B M; Mnguni, B A;
Mnyandu, B J; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng , T R; Mogale, O
M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mohlaloga, M R; Moiloa-Nqodi, S B;
Mokoena, A D; Mokoto, N R; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Moloto, K A; Montsitsi, S
D; Moonsamy, K; Morgan, G R; Morkel, C M; Morobi, D M; Morutoa, M R;
Morwamoche, K W; Mosala, B G; Moss, M I; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D;
Mpahlwa, M B ; Mpontshane, A M; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E;
Mzondeki, M J G; Nash, J H; Ndlazi, Z A; Ndlovu, V B; Ndzanga, R A;
Nene, M J ; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo,
B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngcobo, N W; Ngculu, L V J; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, W;
Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J ; Njobe, M A A; Nogumla, R Z; Ntuli, B
M; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, R S; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, M D;
Nxumalo, S N ; Nyambi, A J; Nyembe, K K M; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A
A; Phala, M J; Pieterse, R D; Rajbally, S ; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M;
Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C P M; Rasmeni, S M; Schippers, J; Schmidt, H
C; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E A; Seadimo, M D; Seaton, S A; Sefularo,
M ; Sekgobela, S P; Selau, J G; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; September, C C;
Seremane, W J; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhidla, N N; Siboza, S ;
Sibuyana, M W; Sikakane, M R; Singh, N; Sizani, S; Skhosana, D N;
Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Smith, V G; Smuts, M; Solo, B M; Sonto, M
R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Steyn, A C; Sunduza, T B; Surty, M E;
Swanson-Jacobs, J; Swart, M; Swart, S N; Swathe, M M; Thomson, B;
Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Twala,
N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van Der Walt, D; Van Wyk, A; Vos, S
C; Vundisa, S S; Wang, Y; Waters, M; Weber, H; Woods, G G; Wright, F J;
Zikalala, C N Z; Zulu, B Z.
Question agreed to. Nominations accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 196 (8)(a) of the Constitution.
SIXTEEN DAYS OF ACTIVISM FOR NO VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN AND CHILDREN, AND HOW WE CAN RESOURCE OUR AGENCIES PROPERLY
(Subject for Discussion)
Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, the eve of another 16 days of activism for no violence against women and children allows us as parliamentarians to step back and take a sober look at how we, as a nation, are best protecting our children and women and how seriously we take our responsibilities as members of Parliament and the executive.
According to the annual report of SAPS, the number of children murdered in the last financial year increased to 1 410. This is a massive 22,4% increase from the previous year. There were 1 488 attempted murders on children, and that is an increase of 14%. I want you to think about it for a while: 1 410 children murdered in one year. That is nearly one child every six hours in our country.
How are these children being murdered? Obviously we need to know this if we are to understand the causes of this scourge. For the past two years, however, the current Minister - who is talking and not listening - and the previous Ministers of Safety and Security have refused to answer the parliamentary questions I put to them, despite the information being readily available on the SAPS computer system.
Now, if Ministers are not prepared to answer a legitimate question with regard to how children are being murdered, it tells me they are not serious about violence against children. And, given the attention the Minister is giving to the debate today, it is quite clear that he doesn’t care about violence against children.
The reason I know the information is available on the SAPS computer system, is that in 2006 the previous Minister actually did answer the question on what weapons were used to murder children. You, sir, have refused to answer that question. The reply sent shivers down my spine.
As expected, firearms and knives are two of the biggest categories with regard to instruments being used to murder children, and were responsible for 54% of all murders. The third biggest category was unknown. The cause of 18% of all child murders was never identified in our country. Surely an autopsy would have determined what was used to kill a child? Does this indicate that simple autopsies are not being conducted on all murdered children?
It is no wonder that the conviction rate for the murder of children is a dismal 12,8%, which means 87% of all murderers actually get away with it. The other means used to murder children highlight the disgusting depths which we as a nation have stooped to. Our children are murdered by being strangled, according to the reply on 2006; 26 children were kicked to death
- can you imagine the pain and fear those children went through; stabbed with bottles and screwdrivers; being stoned with bricks; being set alight with matches; six children were murdered with axes; another six were murdered with fists – so they were punched to death basically; three children were murdered by having boiling water poured all over them; and hammers were also used. And so the list goes on.
How sick is our society when a child can be used as a punching bag? What this does indicate is that we are failing to protect our children before they are hurt or murdered. Where are our social services which are supposed to identify vulnerable children and, if necessary, remove them from potentially dangerous situations? Early intervention is critical for all those involved in child protection services, including social services and schools.
It is also important to have accountability when things go wrong, to ensure that questions can be asked about why people did not act quickly enough. We also need to hold the Ministers accountable with regard to the lack of information coming from their departments.
With a 22% increase in child murders in one year, it is startlingly clear that the very agencies that should be protecting our children are simply not working. Another way we have failed our children is by scrapping the independent, specialised Family Violence, Child Protection and Sexual Offences units, FCS units, who dealt with over 47 000 cases of rape and grievous bodily harm last year alone. By doing what they did, the ANC have eroded centres of excellence, resulting in a system that is considerably less child-friendly than the previous system.
Children are now expected to go to police stations to report crimes. This is an intimidating environment, and the vast majority of police stations do not have facilities for children, such as playrooms and observation rooms, which many of the FCS units did have. What is needed is less talk and some action from government. Protection services are failing to intervene in thousands of cases across the country. The figures speak for themselves. We are failing our children and no amount of public relations exercises will change that.
The DA is therefore calling on government to establish an independent inquiry into the running of all child protection services in order to determine how best we can harness our current resources and to determine what is needed to resource our agencies better. Clearly, with 1 410 murders a year, the system is not working. We also need to restore the FCS units as independent, specialised units away from police stations and with facilities for children, because we need to put the children first and the system must be developed around children and not around politicians and policemen. I thank you very much. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Chairperson, thank you for this opportunity. I also thank Mr Waters for sponsoring this debate for discussion this afternoon.
Last Saturday I spoke at the funeral of a young lady at Soshanguve. She had gone to the clinic in Soshanguve to pick up her tablets and she actually sent a text message to her older sister on what she was going to be doing after that. The family did not know that two hours later they were going to find her lifeless body.
Now this is not a matter where we can point fingers at anybody. We need to point fingers at ourselves, because this violence knows no colour, no politics, it knows nothing. It is something with regard to which we must all use the might that we have to assist government to fight this. Most of the time the perpetrators are known to the victims and the victims are unsuspecting until they lose their lives.
We hear of these stories in our country over and over again. We should also be mindful of the fact that of the more than 45 million South Africans in our country, we are the chosen ones to represent them. This actually becomes the responsibility of all of us, collectively, to work together and ask, as public representatives, are we doing enough in our constituencies, are we assisting our constituencies, are we bringing awareness to our constituencies? Even if we use a podium like this to debate from and show how bad the situation out there is, we should also match it with what we as individual members of Parliament are doing.
To that end, when we start the 16 Days of Activism on 25 November, I would like to collect all the information from all the places I will be working at during the constituency period and I would like Members of Parliament who’d like to join me in that report that we have to table to the 4th Parliament, to do so - to say that in my area in the Northern Cape I have been to these areas, and this is how I’ve assisted the police. We have all been called by the police, not now, Minister, during Steve Tshwete’s time, to volunteer as Members of Parliament.
One thing we know is that the community knows us, they have elected us. They will trust us. So if we dedicate an hour or two at any police station nearest to you, and say you will be there to assist, you may relieve with reception work - by relieving a policeman or woman from the reception area, you are actually allowing them to do the dedicated functions of a police officer.
We are not saying that you should go and arrest people, but do those things that you could do; like making photocopies, sending e-mails on their behalf – things that will actually free the police officers and get those people to tend to the work that they are supposed to do. I will still write to you, hon members, to find out how many of us did heed that call, the call was given to us almost ten years ago and I don’t remember if we have actually done what we were supposed to do.
Sixteen Days of Activism is actually a campaign that says from 25 November to 10 December, we focus on campaigning around the issues that affect women and children, but that doesn’t mean that on midnight of 10 December it is freedom for men and that perpetrators can do as they please because the 16 days are over. We are saying that for 365 days, and a quarter in some years, we are going to fight for the protection of women and children, because they happen to be a vulnerable group. I am talking on behalf of everybody here.
This matter is also receiving attention at the UN. You know that Secretary- General Ban Ki-moon added another impetus to the campaign by launching a multiyear campaign to intensify action to end violence against women and girls. This approach seeks to sustain the campaign beyond just the annual 16 Days of Activism. This campaign, which was launched by the UN, will deliberately run from 2008 to 2015, so that it runs alongside the MDGs. We welcome this and would also like to be seen to be part of it. We know that our MDGs are not always so recognisable, but let us continue working hard and make sure that we give this multiyear campaign, as launched by the UN, our support.
Of particular relevance to us as parliamentarians, of the three key areas that were mentioned by the UN, the area that we want to participate in and that we think we can give meaning to, is, to draw from a clause in the UN General Assembly, resolution 61/143, which reads thus, “… to review, where appropriate, revise, amend or abolish all laws, regulations, policies, practices and customs that discriminate against women”.
That is a function that we know better than all other functions and that is what we have to look at. We have passed many pieces of legislation, but whether the legislation works for our people is something we have to look at. We must do this through an exercise that evaluates and, where there are gaps, we must tighten the legislation. We also need to have a session where we talk about implementing that legislation. Have we monitored sufficiently whether the laws are being implemented, and whether the laws are even known to people? Do we go back to our constituencies and tell people we know that these five Bills were passed, and whether they know what they imply? If we can use whatever resources we have available, or even say that we don’t have enough resources, because we tend to want to give feedback and go back to our communities – I am sure we will find ways of getting money somewhere to assist Members of Parliament to ensure that we see to it that there is implementation.
It means nothing if we are going to be talking about having passed more that 1 200 pieces of legislation by now, but when we go back to our people, they are still faced with the same problems. Our people know who the perpetrators are. They are scared. What is it that we are doing?
Women, in particular, like clothes, Minister: at times we go into the shop to buy them, at times we don’t get to the shop to buy them, but we still get the clothes anyway. At times we need those earrings, because I saw this or that Minister wearing them and I will get them, whether I have the money or not and I don’t pay or have a receipt for it.
What I usually say is that if you get any goods without getting a receipt for it, you are no less guilty than a person who has a gun; you are the same. For you to have those kinds of things shining on your body, some people have had to lose their lives. Some children have lost their parents for you, because we all like shortcuts. [Applause.] We need to make sure that we cut the market. If people steal cars and there’s nobody to buy the cars, they won’t steal them. But if we support it and we say, “Oh, I have always wanted …
… ke bule koloi ela ke tsamaye ke letsa mmino hore ba itlwe hore ke bohlale … [… to open that car and drive around playing music so that they can see how streetwise I am …]
… without paying the right price for it.” When you read about orphans, and when you read about widows, you must know that you have created that. It is important for us to lead by example. We are the people who are given the opportunity to speak at churches and funerals. Much as we are going to talk about the deceased and whatever campaigns the churches have; let us push the message that people should come out and help the government.
I remember one time – I think hon Twala was with me - when we spoke at a funeral and said there must be somebody who knows who killed this child and that that person may even be here with us, listening to what is going to happen, but have a conscience. They will kill somebody else’s child today and when they run short of victims, they’ll be coming for you. For you to stop other people from becoming victims, you should talk. That very evening, a report was received by the police saying, “I am scared. I am the mother of so-and-so, but I know I am seeing things that my child has not worked for.”
We need to bring back “lobo ubunthu” because that is how we used to deal with each other. [Applause.] I mean, if you go into the suburbs or townships of Tshwane - those are the areas that I live in and those are my constituencies - in black and white areas we have the same perpetrators. The perpetrators don’t have a colour. Nobody can say this is done by either black people or white people, because it will be irresponsible to say so. Otherwise we wouldn’t be finding it everywhere.
There is also the other point that we have to look at and that is how we socialise our children, how we bring up that little boy to think he’s a big man; how we bring up that little Thabo to know that he doesn’t have to wash the dishes, he doesn’t have to pick up his socks, because there is a girl who will come and do that for him. When Thabo grows up to be a man or a father and he does that to his wife and children, we are surprised.
We are the first port of call. What is it that we are doing? We are benefiting from being where most South Africans would love to be. We are here occupying these seats, hon members, let us make a change. Thank you.
Ms C N Z ZIKALALA: Chairperson, the IFP strongly believes that the question of gender has not yet been properly addressed. Even though we are said to be supposedly enjoying our freedom, most women are still oppressed and suffering under patriarchy, whether in the workplace or in our communities. Some males still cannot accept women in senior positions as their leaders.
The 16 Days of Activism for No Violence against Women and Children campaign is just a tool, but is not enough to address such issues. The agencies for bringing about change are not properly resourced and lack the capacity or power to implement and educate society. Policies are endorsed, but not implemented.
Agencies must start to identify the causes of violence against women and children. The IFP, however, also believes that the abuse of alcohol and drugs plays a crucial role with regard to woman and child abuse. Hence we feel that if the agencies of change can try to resolve these issues of alcohol and drug abuse, violence against women and children can be reduced.
It is a basic human right for women and children to be thoroughly educated on issues pertaining to abusive behaviour in order for them to be able to understand at which point the behaviour of their men can be seen as abuse. Agencies must instil in women’s minds in particular that they must stop justifying male behaviour in terms of who provoked whom.
The government should entrust agencies who are dealing with issues of violence against women and children with more powers to exercise and should furnish them with all the tools needed. The government must also ensure that an enabling environment is created for women and children.
Lastly, the agencies should try to create a common understanding of gender by working with women and men separately, as well as jointly, so as to deal with attitudinal beliefs which strongly influence practices at both professional and personal levels.
Nksz S N SIGCAU: Sihlalo namalungu ahloniphekileyo, mandibhotise. Oko kwathi kwasekwa eli phulo, ubani ushiyeka enengqondo yokuba ngokwenene sisisizwe siyasiguqula isithethe sokuthula xa kukho izenzo zodushe ezijolise ekunyhashweni kwamalungelo abasethyini nabantwana.
Isininzi semibutho yabucala namagorha ayidlalile indima yawo kule mpumelelo. Kwaye kufuneka siyiphawule nento yokuba abezopolitiko nemibutho yezopolitiko nayo ibe nalo igalelo elinamandla nelibonakalayo ekuncediseni ekuqhawuleni umqokozo.
Kananjalo, masazi ukuba ukuguqulwa kwesithethe sokuthula akuthethi ukuba kuza kuguqulwa isimbo sodushe ngophanyazo. Nangaphandle kwamathandabuzo, kufuneka sithathe amanyathelo angqongqo ukuqinisekisa ukuba lo mgama sele siwuhambile siyawandisa, singabuyeli mva. Intsingiselo yoko kukuba amaqumrhu amiselwe ukulwa obu bugebenga ayaphanda kwaye atshutshise ngempumelelo abenzi bobugwenxa.
Ukuba siyoyiswa kukuqinisekisa ukuba abo bangabenzi bobu bugebenga bayazeka futhi bayatshutshiswa ukuze bafumane isohlwayo esibafaneleyo, abo bancedisa ekupopoleni nasekulweni esi simbo baya kuthyafa bangaphinde benze nto. Ngoko ke isithethe sikacwaka siya kubuya ngamandla.
Kubaluleke kakhulu kunangaphambili ukuba iinkonzo zamapolisa neenkundla zabelwe izixa-mali ezibonakalayo kwaye zixhotyiswe ngcono ukuze zikwazi ukuphumeza umsebenzi wazo kuba kaloku okwangoku ziyasilela kakhulu.
Ndiyabulela ngokubaza kwenu iindlebe. Enkosi. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)
[Ms S N SIGCAU: Chairperson and hon members, I greet you. Ever since this initiative has been established, one does realise that we as a nation have shifted from the norm of turning a blind eye when acts of violence are perpetrated against women and children.
The majority of NGOs and some heroes have played a major role towards achieving this victory. We should also acknowledge that politicians and political organisations have played a significant role in breaking the chain of silence.
Be that as it may, breaking the silence does not necessarily mean that the act of violence will miraculously disappear. We have to put in place measures to ensure, without any doubt, that we add on to what we have already achieved, and never turn back. The purpose is thus to ensure that organisations, formed specifically to deal with this crime, do investigate and successfully prosecute these perpetrators.
Organisations that assist in fighting gender-based violence against women and children will be demoralised if we fail to ensure that perpetrators are reported, prosecuted and suitably punished. This will therefore result in the reinstatement of the norm of silence.
It is more important than ever before that the SAPS and the courts are allocated substantial budgets and are capacitated to ensure that necessary services are rendered much more effectively. So far, they fall short in their role.
I thank you for listening. Thank you.]
Mrs C DUDLEY: Thank you, Chair. Human trafficking is modern-day slave- trading. It entails transporting people away from their communities across continents, countries or regions by threat, the use of violence or deception and enticement, with the intention of taking advantage of them. This trafficking of persons involves adults and children, who are trafficked for sex or for labour.
Globally, trafficking in human beings is the third largest area of organised crime after drugs and arms smuggling. The UN estimates that some 80% of people trafficked are trafficked for sexual exploitation. The global sex industry is an enormous profit-making venture, based on the exploitation of women and children. Unlike drugs, women and children can be sold numerous times over for profit, with the criminals receiving less punishment and shorter sentences than they would for dealing in drugs.
I bring this up specifically at the start of this year’s 16 Days of Activism for No Violence against Women and Children campaign because, according to the UN Agency for International Development, crime syndicates of slave traders are increasing their operations in South Africa. The province hardest hit by this scourge is the Eastern Cape, followed by KwaZulu-Natal, the North West, Limpopo and the Northern Cape.
Organisations involved in investigating cases and providing therapy for victims are extremely concerned at the increased incidence of human trafficking in South Africa and human rights activists are warning that things could get far worse as the 2010 Soccer World Cup draws near and the demand for sex workers increases. A forceful statement needs to be made that South Africans will not allow slave-trading to take place in South Africa. A clear message must go out to foreigners and locals as South Africa gears up for 2010 that we are not prepared to turn a blind eye or, even worse, facilitate the abuse of people through prostitution at any time, including during the 2010 Soccer World Cup.
The ACDP calls on government to follow the example of the Republic of China, as they removed all sex workers from the cities where Olympic events were being held and stepped up vigilance to block individuals and vice rings from operating. This will send a signal to those preparing now, that their efforts will be in vain.
The ANC struck a cruel blow to women and children when it disbanded the Scorpions and strengthened the grip of crime syndicates in South Africa. Nevertheless, we urge government to intensify antitrafficking activities, to ensure that dedicated police units are trained to eradicate human traffic operations, and that these units are trained to work closely with NGOs and state social services to adequately assist victims of trafficking.
The ACDP has called on the Minister of Education to urgently facilitate programmes within institutions of learning which will prepare young people to avoid the dangers of being lured by seemingly valid promises of work or reward, only to find themselves abducted and held captive by modern-day slave-traders.
The ACDP calls on government and all politicians to set an example which nations around the world can follow. We must stop modern-day slave-trading in this country. Thank you.
Mr I S MFUNDISI: Women and children are invariably the most vulnerable people when it comes to violence. It may be violence in the family or in society. South Africa is a signatory to the Convention on the Elimination of all Forms Discrimination against Women. Therefore, it is expected that South Africans should conform to the protocol adopted in the convention. Men who hold the view that women are lesser beings who were made out of the dust or crumbs of clay that fell off the master’s table when he made a super gender, man, should be reminded what the Inter-Parliamentary Union had to say about women in 1994, and I quote:
The combination of efforts on the part of all of society’s components is indispensable to tackle and resolve the problems facing society. Emphasis should thus be placed on two complementary concepts: the concept of parity which reflects the fact that persons of one or the other sex are different but nonetheless equal; and the concept of partnership, which shows that a creative synergy can be created between men and women so as to tackle and resolve the community’s problems effectively.
This goes to prove that there is no master or super gender and by extension no super or master human being. Women and children should be treated with love and respect. While there is merit in calling for state-of-the-art buildings and deluxe vehicles for law enforcement agencies, it is also important that these agencies should be resourced with the best human resources, people who care, empathise and sympathise, who are resourceful and compassionate. We do not need officers who have hearts of stone when dealing with women and children. The UCDP envisages a period in our lives when activism against women abuse will be a way of life. I thank you.
Ms N C MFEKETO: Hon members, the national theme of “Don’t look away, act against abuse” for this year’s 16 Days of Activism for No Violence Against Women and Children Campaign, is a rallying call to all South Africans, men and women, young and old, across all cultural divides, to speak out against the scourge of violence against the vulnerable in our society. It is a call not to hide or deny the existence of such violence. It is a call to acknowledge when help is needed and to help. It is a call to declare a permanent truce in this epidemic.
Fourteen years since the advent of democracy and a constitution with the strongest provisions on gender equality in the world, gender-based violence continues to undermine the human rights of South Africans, especially women and children.
Violence against women and children is a human rights issue, but more specifically, it is an equality issue. It is widely acknowledged that violence grows and takes hold of environments where relationships are characterised by inequity, where a power imbalance – imagined or real– exists between men and women, boys and girls and adults and children. Violence is an expression of domination of power. It is exerted by the powerful over the disempowered.
In 2006 South Africa made a ground-breaking move to develop a 365- days’ action plan to end violence against women and children. The plan was a product of a multistakeholder conference driven by the ANC–led government in partnership with the civil society organisations that are committed to the struggle of ending violence against women and children. This effort culminated in the launch of the action plan by the then Deputy President Phumzile Mlambo–Ngcuka on 8 March 2007 in celebration of International Women’s Day.
Other countries in the region like Zimbabwe, Namibia, Botswana, Mauritius, Lesotho, Zambia and Swaziland engaged in similar initiatives to develop action plans to end violence against women. Almost all the action plans are framed in terms of the SADC addendum on the prevention and eradication of violence against women and children that outlines five key areas in which measures must be adopted to address this scourge in the region. The key areas include the legal, social, economic, cultural and political spheres; services; education, training and awareness; and integrated approaches to budget allocation.
By launching the national action plan to end gender violence, South Africa is one of the first countries to heed the call of the UN Secretary-General last year for all countries to develop comprehensive multisector action plans for ending gender violence. This national action plan is a multisector framework approach for ending gender violence.
This plan recognises that no single sector, government ministry, department or civil society organisation is by itself responsible for or has a singular ability to address this challenge. It is envisaged that all South African government departments and civil society organisations will, as stakeholders, use this national action plan as the basis to develop their own strategic and operational plans to ensure unity of purpose and cohesion of efforts to achieve maximum impact in the process of eradicating this scourge.
In order to address and find solutions to this scourge, the ANC–led government has put in place various measures that include ensuring that our courts toughen actions on gender violence, and passing legislation that will help intensify our efforts to fight sexual crimes against all persons but in particular against women, children and people who are mentally disabled.
This plan also includes integrated approaches to end the violence such as ensuring that treatment and care receive greater attention, that the media becomes more a part of the solution instead of being part of the problem and, more important, creating a space that allows real men to find their voice in assisting in dealing with this matter.
More importantly, part of this plan is a Victims’ Charter. The ANC government has committed itself to implementing measures aimed at continuous reform of the criminal justice system to promote and protect the rights of victims of crime. This commitment is in the spirit of the South African Constitution and in compliance with the international human rights instruments. The implementation of the Victims’ Charter is one of the measures aimed at balancing the rights of victims of crime and accused persons.
In 2007 a stakeholder summit was held in KwaZulu–Natal on implementation of the Victims’ Charter and minimum standards. Also a national workshop on challenges of training on Victims’ Charter was held. Public as well as provincial consultation on implementation was held and a five-year national implementation plan outlining the commitments made by the Departments of Justice, Social Development, Health and Correctional Services and the NPA and SAPS, has been developed.
Despite these efforts and measures, it is important for us to note that if we in our neighbourhoods, our communities, schools, workplaces and families continue to turn a blind eye when faced with gender violence, we will be doing ourselves as a society a grave injustice. We need to break down those structures that support and perpetuate the silence surrounding victims of violence. This starts with us in our homes when we raise those young people who become abusers. Thank you very much. [Time expired.]
Mr R B BHOOLA: Chairperson, on Monday 17 November 2008, two burglars entered the Ahmed-household in Laudium, Pretoria. Rashida Ahmed, 49-years- old, was beaten for over an hour with a spade and baton, while her attackers dragged her from room to room as they ransacked her home. Police have described her killing as Pretoria’s worst murder yet. Our deepest condolences are extended to the Ahmed family on this most tragic event. The Ahmeds are victims, as many other South African families have been, to violence, crime and terror.
Annually we return to the podium confessing our commitment to ending the violence and abuse against women and children and this publicity is effective, but is it effective enough? Looking at the South African survey of 2007-08, it is reported that between the periods of 2002-03 to 2006-07 there has been an astounding increase of 34,7% in crimes committed against children under the age of 18 years. These crimes range from murder to rape, assault, indecent assault and common assault. The SA Government has policies, conventions and projects aligned with addressing the seriousness of violence and abuse against women and children. However, we remain severely challenged.
Actions speak louder than words. Mahatma Ghandi once said that those who embark on a journey of goals with vengeance, cause the whole world to be blinded. It has been very heart-warming having the hon G Morgan embracing senior citizens of Chatsworth, but what puzzles me is that there has been a bitter attack on our 75-year-old member, the hon Rajbally, by the DA’s hon Morgan over the voting issue. He has sent letters to the Mercury newspaper, casting aspersions on her performance in Parliament.
All members are aware of hon Rajbally’s consistent contribution and participation at national level and the hon Morgan should hang his head in shame.
Mr G R MORGAN: Chair, on a point of order: I think that the implication here by the hon Bhoola that I have somehow abused the hon Rajbally, in the context of a serious debate where we’re talking about violence, criminal violence and sexual violence, is egregious and that comment should be withdrawn.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): We will check the Hansard and then we will come back to you.
Mr R B BHOOLA: The hon Morgan should hang his head in shame for abusing an elderly woman. [Interjections.]
Mr M J ELLIS: Chair, on a point of order: You have just indicated, sir, that you are prepared to take careful cognisance of what the hon Bhoola has said, and yet he continues on the same theme. I would suggest that in actual fact he should refrain from that particular angle now.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Yes, I think when it comes to repeating those things, we are still going to look at the Hansard and see whether they were parliamentary or not. But I think you should refrain from that, hon member.
Mr R B BHOOLA: I reiterate that while the hon Morgan is counting votes on his fingers, the MF is striving to salvage its communities and enhance delivery. [Interjections.]
Mr M J ELLIS: On a point of order: Chairperson, despite your ruling, he continues referring to Mr Morgan, etc.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): No, this is in a different tone. It is a different line altogether now.
Mr R B BHOOLA: Parliament is not about political trickery and point scoring. For the MF it is about service delivery. [Laughter.] We are not here to represent our people for the pleasure or displeasure of the DA. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Order, order!
Mr R B BHOOLA: Matters as crucial as the fight against violence and abuse of women and children should not be used as opportunistic moments for the next election, but as a platform to unite efforts to address it. We need to join hands to mobilise the fight against violence and abuse of women and children at various levels of society and figure out ways to deter perpetrators from committing such heinous crimes.
The MF is disappointed and disillusioned by the fabric of criminals produced among us. For them to commit such brutal acts of torture is evidence of people without a heart, without a soul and without humanity. We call on the long arm of the law to bring these barbaric criminals to task and we have great confidence in the words of the hon Minister of Safety and Security that we will take the criminals on, head-on.
Ms J A SEMPLE: Chairperson … [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Order! Just wait a minute hon member. Order! Hon members, what is going on now? Can we just listen, please! [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, on a point of order: Is it parliamentary to confront a member, the way in which the hon Morgan has confronted hon Bhoola?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): To do what?
The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: To be confrontational. Is it parliamentary? [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Mhlonishwa, Dingiswayo, ngicela uhlale phansi siqhubeke-izosihlupha lento… [Hon Minister, son of Dingiswayo, please sit down, as this thing will get out of hand … ] [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, I wanted clarity, so that if it happens in future, then we will know whether it is parliamentary or not. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): What do you mean by confrontational?
The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, he moved from his seat and went straight to another member who was debating there. I want to know, if you say it is allowed and it is parliamentary… [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Can we make this clear. You say he moved from where to where?
The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: He moved from his seat to confront the member who was passing after having debated here in the House. Now, it will be okay if you say that this is allowed and should be part of this House. Then you must say so.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Mhlonishwa, members move from one seat to the other talking to other members. [Interjections.] I am not sure what this confrontation means. [Interjections.] Hon Minister, can you clearly explain this to me. What actually happened?
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUPHEPHA NOKUVIKELA: Uyabona baba, umuntu ubekade ekhuluma, ngalokho, uma esuka lo, uyamvimbela. Manje, ngibuza ukuthi uma esuka lo emvimba, engamvimbi nakahle. [Ubuwelewele.] Usuka esihlalweni sakhe lo usuka ezokhuluma la, lo uyamvimbela usho lento ayishoyo. Akasuki ngomoya omuhle. Manje, into engiyibuza kuwena Sihlalo, wukuthi: yinto evunyelwe yini ukuthi yenzeke leyo la? [Ubuwelewele.] Ngoba mina angiboni kuhambisana nemithetho yala ePhalamende, kodwa uma wena uthi yinto efanele yenzeke. Cha, ukusho nje baba, Musi sazi ukuthi sekuyenziwa lokho. Sazi ukuthi cha uyakuvuma impela sekuzokwenziwa. [Ubuwelewele.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Hon Chairperson, you see, hon Bhoola has been debating, and thereafter the hon Morgan was blocking his way. Now, what I want to know is why the hon Morgan blocked him, and not in a polite manner but aggressively … [Interjections.] Hon Bhoola was passing by after having debated and hon Morgan stopped him to say what he has said. He was not confronting him in a polite way. Now, what I am asking from you, Chairperson, is whether it is parliamentary to do that in this House? [Interjections.] Because I do not see it as complying with the Rules of Parliament, but if you say so, then it is fine. I am just saying, hon Chairperson, so that we should know that it is now allowed. We should know that you have agreed that it is acceptable. [Interjections.]]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, on a point of order … [Interjections.]
Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, on a point of order … [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Thank you, hon members. I need to say that personally I did not see what the Minister is saying he saw, but from the way he describes it, it should not have happened in that way. Members should not confront members in the manner - threatening - that the Minister is describing.
I also think it should be the responsibility of the Whips to assist the Chair in looking at issues that are disrupting the debates. It should not be part of the debates. The Whips should be assisting in such cases. So, that would be my ruling.
Mr M J ELLIS: Chairperson … [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Can you sit down, sir.
Mr D V BLOEM: Thank you very much, Chairperson. I think that it would be proper for him to apologise to Mr Bhoola. [Interjections.] Seeing that you have ruled now …
Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, this is not a point of order. This cannot be a point of order.
Mr D V BLOEM: I think that Mr Morgan must apologise to Mr Bhoola … [Interjections.] … because he was very aggressive and intimidating towards Mr Bhoola and that is not correct.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): I am … [Interjections.]
Ms D VAN DER WALT: Ag siestog! [Ag shame.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): I ruled, Mr Bloem, and admitted that I did not see that; and that if it happened in the way that the Minister is describing it then I should discourage it. Members should not do that to other members. This is a debating Chamber where we are all free to debate and therefore we should not intimidate other members. And, if Mr Morgan did do that, I say I discourage it, not only to Mr Morgan, but to all of us. We should not be doing things like that. Hon Mr Morgan, did you do it in that spirit? [Interjections.]
Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairperson, may I answer for Mr Morgan, please. The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Why?
Mr M J ELLIS: The hon Minister suggests that Mr Morgan stopped the man in his path. Mr Morgan did not leave his seat. He stood up, but he did not leave his seat and he did not confront … [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Hon Ellis, can I just hear from the hon Morgan what really happened?
Mr G R MORGAN: Well, let us do some basic physics here. I stayed there. Mr Bhoola walked through there and I did not block anyone. I rose up from my seat but after being accused of abusing someone, of course, I am angry. Will I apologise? No!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): You see, I am going to adhere to the ruling I made about this, which is a general ruling that if we are doing that, we don’t need to do it. [Interjections.] I did say that if the Whips are here and they are not assisting in things like this, then it’s a difficult point for me. [Interjections.] Hon Bloem, please!
Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, on a point of order: The way in which he is behaving is unparliamentary, he cannot tell the Chair that he is not going to apologise. That is wrong! He is undermining you, Chairperson, and the House. [Interjections.] The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Hon Bloem, that is your own interpretation of the whole situation. Please sit down. I cannot coerce him to admitting something that he did not say … [Interjections.]
Ms F I CHOHAN: Chairperson, may I suggest that, seeing that you had asked Mr Morgan to explain himself, you perhaps accord Mr Bhoola the same privilege to explain what transpired in the spirit of the audi alteram partem.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): I am not sure whether this is going to take us forward here. Perhaps if Mr Bhoola says something different then what would be the difference in my ruling? Hon Bhoola, do you want to say something about this?
Mr R B BHOOLA: Chairperson, indeed all the sentiments that have been expressed by the previous speakers are exactly what occurred. Hon Gerald Morgan got up from his seat, while I passed there, and addressed me in a very aggressive tone and displayed very aggressive behaviour - unacceptable for Parliament.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): I think I did say that I have made a ruling and I will adhere to that ruling. Because now we have his word against his; and a lot of shouting in the House that he did it – can we continue?
Dr A N LUTHULI: Chairperson, on a point of order: A certain member there said: Ag siestog! [Ag shame!] Is that parliamentary language? And I have just heard Mr Ellis saying, on this matter of hon Bhoola, “What else did you expect Mr Morgan to say or do?” [Interjections.] Is that parliamentary language? “Ag siestog!” [Ag shame!]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Well, can I say that we will also check the Hansard and come back with a ruling. [Interjections.]
Dr A N LUTHULI: Is that parliamentary language: “Ag siestog!” [Ag shame!]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Hon member, I say I am going to check the Hansard and come back with a ruling whether … [Interjections.] No, it needs an interpretation. It is language, hon member. Can I continue with the debate? Continue, hon member.
Ms J A SEMPLE: Chairperson, I regard this debate as extremely important and I take the issue of violence against women as something to be viewed extremely seriously. Therefore I regard hon Bhoola’s attempt to trivialise this debate, and giving him five minutes or perhaps two minutes of fame in this House, as highly despicable.
As South African women we rejoice in the fact that one of us, the well- known South African actress, Charlize Theron, has been chosen as a UN Messenger of Peace with a special focus on ending violence against women as something to be celebrated. I am especially proud because Charlize Theron comes from my constituency, Benoni in Ekurhuleni, Gauteng.
But there is something which does not make us proud. It is the fact that Charlize comes from a background of violence and abuse. This is something that is an everyday occurrence for far too many women in South Africa.
A recent UN Population Fund Report puts the life expectancy of a typical South African woman at just 49,6 years - our life expectancy has been cut by six years over the past 10 years. It is now down to the levels of women living in war-torn and poverty-stricken countries such as Somalia and Ethiopia.
Women live longer in Namibia than we do here. They live longer in Ghana, and to our never-ending shame, women live a full decade longer in war-torn Iraq than they do here in sunny South Africa.
These statistics are largely due to South Africa having one of the highest HIV prevalence rates in the world with 21,8% of all women aged between 15 and 49 being HIV-positive - the fourth highest rate globally.
I find it somewhat ironic that the Minister responsible for allowing the HIV/Aids pandemic to spread almost unchecked has now been sidelined to the Office of the Presidency. Let us hope that she is not there long enough to further compromise the women, children and the disabled who fall within her portfolio.
The previous Minister in the Presidency certainly did nothing to advance the cause of women; in fact, I would go so far as to say he did so little that he practically undermined the women’s movement in this country. One only has to look at our poor record in reporting to the UN Committee on the Status of Women. The initial South African country report for the period 1994 to 1997 was submitted to the CEDAW committee in 1998, but somehow, under former Minister Pahad’s watch, no report has been submitted since then.
We are now consolidating our second, third and fourth country reports on the implementation of the CEDAW convention for the past 10 years into one. Despite our much acclaimed Office on the Status of Women and Gender machinery, section V 4.2 of the same report also points out that South Africa has amongst the world’s highest levels of sexual and domestic violence, and that the HIV/Aids epidemic disproportionately affects women’s lives both in terms of rates of infection and the burden of care and support they carry for those with Aids-related illnesses.
The Deputy Minister of Social Development, Dr Jean Swanson-Jacobs, has previously said, “There is a clear link between violence against women and HIV/Aids infection.” She added that socioeconomic factors, unequal gender and sexual relations, unprotected sex, and alcohol and drug abuse are among the factors that have increased the negative impact of HIV/Aids.
We applaud efforts of organisations, such as Sonke Gender Justice, which conducts surveys and tries to implement legislation and increase support amongst men to prevent violence against women. We need organisations such as these, men and women like Charlize Theron, to keep on reminding us that violence in any form - but particularly against women and children - is not acceptable. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Hon Chairperson, hon members, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, it is now almost a decade since the 16 Days of Activism for No Violence Against Women and Children campaign was launched in 1999, as part of efforts by the government to rally citizens against the high levels of violence directed at women and children, which has been prevalent in our communities.
The objectives of the 16 Days of Activism campaign is to uphold the rights of citizens and restore the dignity of the most vulnerable members of our society. Among our major goals were the aims of raising awareness of the challenges posed by societal attitudes and practices that continue to perpetuate gender-based violence and child abuse. And I must say that the incident that just happened in this House shows me that even in this House there is not yet an appreciation of those conditions and attitudes that perpetuate gender violence, because the victims of gender violence doesn’t only have to be women and children. Violence doesn’t begin with a slap; it begins with verbal abuse.
In the past decade, our government, guided by the constitutional rights guaranteed to the people of South Africa, has come up with numerous laws that are meant to protect the dignity of each person in this country.
We have also established progressive policies and implemented various programmes that are currently being implemented to protect women and children. And here I must commend all those departments who participate in the Victim Empowerment Programmes in partnership with the private sector and also the police who have assisted with trauma centres in partnership with the community.
We have also in the past decade been able to expand the campaign activities and extend them to reach even the poorest and remotest of communities and this has been an important milestone as it is in these communities where such violence against women and children is prevalent.
According to research studies conducted by, among others, the Government Communication and Information Systems, GCIS, about a year ago, societal awareness about problems such as child abuse, domestic violence, as well as violence against women in general, has increased considerably.
The GCIS study conducted towards the end of 2006 found that about 33% of South Africans were now aware of the 16 Days Campaign and conceded that violence against women and children should not be accepted, whereas only 16% were aware of this in 2003. So, I think that the campaign does help – our programmes help as well – but it is also very important to change people’s attitudes.
But having said that, hon members, let me hasten to say that we still have a lot of work to do if we are to win the fight against gender-based violence. One of the tasks facing us is that of strengthening our structures and improving co-ordination between these structures and enhancing the partnership between the government, private sector, nongovernmental organisations and community-based organisations.
This, however, should not be viewed as an impossible task, because already the basis for this has been laid as the number of civil society organisations that have embraced the campaign has increased significantly since 1999. There has also been incredible growth in partnership between the government and the private sector with all parties throwing their full weight behind the 16 Days of Activism campaign. This has had a number of positive consequences, such as the joint effort that enabled us to raise some of the required funds for a number of nongovernmental and community- based organisations dealing with victims of gender violence and child abuse. About 24 such organisations benefited from the support funds in 2006 alone.
During the past nine years, the campaign has succeeded in getting more men to support the fight against violence that is directed at women and children. This culminated in the Million Men March in November last year in which over a million men from all provinces took part in the main march in Bloemfontein and in various other marches held countrywide. These men not only participated in marches but they have also been actively involved in an ongoing way. They are engaging with the department and attending workshops. I think that the men’s movement is definitely growing.
It is important that we strengthen our efforts because one of the challenges that we have to deal with, if we are to win this fight, is the challenge of reducing the levels of alcohol and drug abuse in our communities. There are indications that the abuse of alcohol and drugs contribute towards the high levels of woman abuse, child abuse and elder abuse as well as to the spread of HIV and Aids. This is the most difficult part of the campaign because it requires individuals to undergo a change of heart as well as to change their behaviour. It is something that cannot be dealt with only in terms of policy formulation or by simply enacting laws; but we really need to get the entire civil society to participate and join the structures of the National Drug Master Plan in order to combat the scourge of drug and alcohol abuse that we are experiencing in our country.
The messages that we have been carrying to people as part of the communication strategy for the 365-days campaign of talking to people about behavioural change, is the impact of violence and the link between gender- based violence, alcohol and drug abuse and HIV and Aids.
We also need to communicate through the most effective and appropriate channels aiming to reach the maximum number of people across the country, particularly women and children residing in the rural areas, farmworkers, people with disabilities and the aged. This requires us to broaden our focus from the usual reliance on the urban and mainstream media and focusing on the local media as well as increasing our community outreach programmes.
Already we have aligned most of our events in the national programme with that of the international theme for the year, which focuses on matters relating to women’s human rights. And we believe that our communications should also seek to highlight the stories of survivors of gender-based violence and the positive impact that the campaign has had on their lives. Before I conclude, let me convey my gratitude to all the South Africans who have taken a stand and pledged not to look away when they witness gender- based violence and child abuse. I am also very grateful of the role played by businesses and the contributions made by the private sector as a whole towards the 16 Days of Activism Campaign. These do not only relate to financial contributions made by the South African media and related institutions which have supported the campaign from day one and played an important role in getting our messages as well as key information regarding the abuse of women and children to the public. I thank you.
Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, it is a great pity that this debate has degenerated into a slanging match. Just to inform members on what the hon Bhoola was accusing the hon Morgan of when he said he had abused an old lady, the hon Morgan was holding the MF to account for not being in this Chamber and for not expressing a view in this Chamber on the Scorpions Bill. Neither did they do so today. So, the hon Morgan informed the voters of Chatsworth that she had no opinion on such an important matter. That is not abusing an elderly lady.
Secondly, … [Interjections.]
Ms S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, on a point of order: The hon Bhoola did not say “old lady”. He said, “the hon 75-year-old lady”. So, he did not just use the term “old lady”. Correction, please!
Mr M WATERS: The reason I say she or the MF does not have an opinion on the matter is because they did not participate in the debate.
Secondly, we are all equal in this Chamber. None of us deserves special treatment, irrespective of whether you are an elderly lady like the hon Rajbally is or a gay member of Parliament. We are all equal here. It doesn’t matter, quite frankly. Elderly women in this Chamber before, like Winnie Mandela and Helen Suzman, did not ask for any special attention or treatment. They were treated equally. They were attacked, and they held their ground.
Lastly, the voters of Chatsworth have obviously seen the light and that is why you are so worried about Chatsworth. You are worried that they are going to the DA and that is why you had to make these ludicrous assertions about the hon Morgan.
You obviously don’t take this debate very seriously, hon Bhoola. You don’t take being in this Chamber very seriously. So, why don’t you do all of us a favour and sell your seat like you wanted to four years ago?
But if I can get on with what you were actually … [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Hon member, I think you are simply being personal by pointing at the hon member and saying these things. It is unparliamentary to do that. Please continue. Mr M WATERS: Thank you, Chair. What I would like to say to the other speakers in the debate is that, yes, as the Speaker said, we must all join hands in fighting child and women abuse and we have a national 365-day plan, as the ANC spokesperson said.
However, what have we done in this country over the last few years? Despite all this fanfare of 16 days of activism and the 365-day action plan, we actually scrapped the very units that were there to investigate cases of abuse and rape against women and children - the Family Violence, Child Protection and Sexual Offences, FCS, units.
Why did we scrap them when they were doing an excellent job in investigating the rape of women and children? What we need to do – it is a pity the Minister is not here – is to reestablish these units, as I have said before, and strengthen the sexual offences courts so that specialised prosecutors and magistrates that deal with children’s cases in particular can work together and develop places where children can give evidence from behind a one-way mirror or a CCTV camera so that they are not intimidated by seeing the person who actually abused or raped them. I think we need to look at these aspects a lot more seriously as Members of Parliament and forget about party politics, please. Let’s get specialised units for children. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
UNPARLIAMENTARY LANGUAGE
(Ruling)
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Order! Before I go to the next Order, there is a ruling I need to make. On 19 March 2008, during a debate in the House on the Second-Hand Goods Bill, the hon Ellis raised a point of order immediately after the Deputy Minister of Safety and Security had made certain remarks from the podium. I undertook to study Hansard and return to the House with a ruling. However, I do apologise for the delay in finalising this matter.
In her response to speeches, the hon Deputy Minister referred to specific members by name. She also made remarks which, according to Hansard, were not directed at any specific member. Certain of these remarks are the ones that the hon Ellis objected to.
During her speech, the Deputy Minister made the following remarks:
You find a member who comes here and makes sure that the criminals out there are happy after she has spoken. They get very excited because they’ve got partners in the House. … She must tell the House what she does during the night.
The Deputy Minister went on to say:
That’s the hon member; that’s how fallacious this member is. I want to say that even if she can support that, she is fallacious because she speaks in many tongues.
She added:
… you are in bed and in cahoots with some of these people who are braying criminal activities.
Having looked at the Unrevised Hansard, I now rule as follows. I want to caution that, although hon members enjoy freedom of speech in the House, they should refrain from making personal remarks which could be regarded as offensive. It is neither worthy of the dignity of the House nor conducive to an orderly and effective debate to even suggest that a member of this House could be in cahoots with criminals.
Although the remarks were not directed at any specific member, I find them inappropriate and offensive. Such a tone in a debate in this august House should consistently be discouraged. Had the Deputy Minister been present in the House, I would have asked her to withdraw the remarks in the interests of upholding the decorum and dignity of this House. However, I will write to her to convey the ruling I have just delivered. Thank you.
Mr M J ELLIS: Chairperson, on a point of order: I’m concerned about the health of the hon Bloem who has been standing up while you were talking … [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): That is not a point of order, hon Ellis.
Mr M J ELLIS: But I just want to make sure that he is okay because he was behaving in a most extraordinary manner, sir.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Well, he could also be concerned about your health, we don’t know.
Mr M J ELLIS: Well, if that is the case, then I will thank him for his attitude, sir.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): He could be concerned.
PROVISION OF LAND AND ASSISTANCE AMENDMENT BILL
(Consideration of Report)
Mr S ABRAM: Chairperson, during September 2008 this honourable House debated and approved the Provision of Land and Assistance Amendment Bill. This Bill is critical for ensuring successful land and agrarian reform that will contribute to poverty eradication.
The Bill empowers the Department of Land Affairs to acquire moveable assets and fixed properties as going concerns. This includes agriculture related enterprises so that land beneficiaries, given the necessary assistance and equipped with appropriate skills, will be able to operate such enterprises.
Once enacted, the provisions of this measure will enable the department to facilitate sustainable land reform, contributing to alleviating the risk of failure.
According to Land Affairs Director-General, Thozi Gwanya, about 50% of land reform projects have failed or are on the verge of failing. The portfolio committee believes that the percentage of failures and those facing problems of sustainability are well in excess of 50%.
The Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs of the NCOP has proposed that new definitions and a new clause 10A(1) and (2) be inserted. It proposed a new definition for “agricultural enterprises” which the portfolio committee accepts, while expressing concerns that it goes a bit wider by including activities such as hunting, game propagation, forestry and fishing.
The second definition proposed, is “enterprise”, which the portfolio committee has no problems with. The select committee proposed a new class which provides for the creation of trading entities through the department that will account for the acquisition, management, disposal and leasing of property and provision of financial assistance.
The trading entity will operate in conformity with the provisions of the Public Finance Management Act. Once established, the entity must maintain separate and itemised accounts and records of each agricultural enterprise or separately administered portion of property that it acquires. Some of us had objections to providing this kind of role for this entity, raising concerns about the lack of capacity in the department, which had a 22,7% vacancy rate in the 2007-08 financial year. Furthermore, it will be encroaching on the role of the Department of Agriculture.
The temptation to create numerous entities, following the acquisition of going concerns, will lead to undesirable bureaucratic expansion and the department is advised to act cautiously. Movable assets can move very fast and be pilfered within days of acquisition, unless adequate systems exist.
To ensure successful land and agrarian reform, which can contribute to poverty alleviation and food security, the department will have to be capacitated with skilled, loyal and accountable patriotic staff. If one takes what has happened over the last couple of weeks and months, such as the veld fires in the higher lying areas of the country and the decimation of vineyards here in the Western Cape, one realises that agriculture is an extremely tricky operation to be in today.
We need to be extra careful with whatever money we spend on the acquisition of such entities, and we must first see to it that we have beneficiaries in tow who are ready, willing and able to take over such enterprises. We must see to it that these enterprises do not remain as trading entities within the department because the state is not there to run agricultural enterprises or businesses. Its job is to see to it that beneficiaries get them as soon as possible and that they contribute handsomely towards food security.
The portfolio committee, having made these comments, trusts that the department, which is not here today, will have access to the Hansard and take into account the concerns that have been expressed here. We recommend that the select committee’s amendments be supported.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Can I also request, when chairpersons of portfolio committees are not going to introduce the Bill and they’ve changed, that they inform the chair and give the name of the hon member who is doing it, otherwise these blanks are going to cause problems.
Mr M R MOHLALOGA: Chair, on the point that you are raising, it has always been like that. I was never billed to table the report. It was always going to be hon Abram who had to table the report.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): I am making a simple request, not only to a particular portfolio committee, but to all portfolio committees, because I have a string of them which do not indicate … [Interjections.]
Mr M R MOHLALOGA: From our side everything was done properly, so it needs to be investigated whether there is a problem in your system or not.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): I do not know how properly it was done because the name is not here.
Ms L MALONEY: Chair, I move on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party:
That the Bill, as amended, be passed.
Motion agreed to.
Bill, as amended, accordingly passed.
VOTE NO 7, STRATEGIC PLAN FOR 2008/11 OF NATIONAL TREASURY AND STRATEGIC PLAN FOR 2009/11 OF SOUTH AFRICAN REVENUE SERVICE
(Consideration of Report)
There was no debate.
Ms L MALONEY: Chair, I move on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party:
That the Report be adopted.
Motion agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.
OVERSIGHT VISIT TO SOUTH AFRICAN FORESTRY COMPANY LTD (SAFCOL)
BUDGET HEARINGS OF DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES 2008/2009
OVERSIGHT VISIT TO PEBBLE BED MODULAR REACTOR LTD
OVERSIGHT VISIT TO ALEXKOR
STUDY TOUR OF CHINA AND VIETNAM
SPECIAL MEETING WITH REPRESENTATIVES FROM SOUTH AFRICAN AIRWAYS (SAA)
(Consideration of Reports) Ms F I CHOHAN: Chairperson, I am not sure what gremlins have crept into this system, but Ms Meruti will be tabling the reports on behalf of the portfolio committee. From our side, we did inform the Table earlier on.
Ms M V MERUTI: Hon Chairperson, hon members, the portfolio committee hereby tables five reports relating to its oversight functions this year. We also table another report of the portfolio committee regarding a visit to China and Vietnam, which was undertaken on 5 August 2007, when I was not yet a member of the committee.
This report makes for fascinating reading. It states that in China, for instance, there are 159 national state-owned enterprises with 12 trillion yuan in assets and ten million employees. In China the state-owned enterprises are seen as champions of the economy and this is an attitude that we need to develop in our country, South Africa.
The committee visited some of the following public enterprises during the year. Firstly, we visited the South African Forestry Company Ltd, Safcol, in Mpumalanga. We note in the report the tremendous opportunity that the forestry industry provides for job creation and related industry development, not to mention the positive contribution forestation can make towards reversing some of the devastation caused by global warming and climate change. The quest for clean and sustainable energy has in our epoch reached urgent proportions.
In this regard, South Africa’s efforts to produce fourth generation nuclear technology that can be safe, efficient and cost-effective, is recognised even by our competitors in China. It has generated much interest internationally. Having specifically sought to understand more, and being concerned about the matter of nuclear safety, the Committee on Public Enterprises took lectures on the fundamentals of nuclear physics from a nuclear scientist. Today we can adequately converse on matters such as nuclear fusion versus nuclear fission, uranium and enriched uranium.
Alexkor is an entity whose history is entwined with the Richtersveld community in the far northwest regions of the Northern Cape. The proper implementation of the settlement agreement between government and the Richtersveld community has given us, as a nation, the ability to make a fresh start. This complex agreement will not be without problems but, should all parties stay the course, a fresh history for the region and people may be written.
With regard to the meeting with the SAA, the entity was able, in a very trying economic climate, to avoid the worst-case scenario of going under. Some of the world’s top airlines, such as Alitalia, have failed to avoid this. The committee is unhappy with certain aspects of the management of SAA and the committee notes that they need to get out of the starting blocks to restructure their business model if they are to avoid going under.
We also tabled the report on the budget hearings of the Department of Public Enterprises and, yet again, the department produced an unqualified audit report. I think it is an honour for them to receive an unqualified audit. I imagine that members will forgive me for not dwelling on the details.
I wish to thank al the members of the committee for their hard work and dedication and I wish all members of this House a happy festive season. Thank you.
Ms L MALONEY: I move on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party:
That the Reports be adopted.
Motion agreed to.
Reports accordingly adopted.
FINDINGS OF THE AUDITOR-GENERAL WITH RESPECT TO AUDIT OF DISCLOSURE OF INTERESTS BY MEMBERS
COMPLAINT AGAINST MINISTER B M N BALFOUR
(Consideration of Reports of Joint Committee on Ethics and Members’
Interests)
Mr L T LANDERS: Chairperson, the Joint Committee on Ethics and Members’ Interests has tabled the two reports before the House in terms of the provisions of Parliament’s Code of Ethics. The first report arose from an investigation conducted by the Auditor-General. This report speaks for itself and does not require further explanation.
The committee does wish to bring to the attention of this House and all its members one or two salient points. Most, if not all, of the business enterprises referred to in the first report, are dormant or have never traded. However, the fact that a business enterprise has never traded does not negate a member’s responsibility and obligation to declare his or her interest in such a business enterprise.
There exists no distinction in Parliament’s code of ethics between functioning or trading business enterprises and dormant ones. We take this opportunity, therefore, to appeal to all members of Parliament to bear this in mind. It is also significant to note that, although the Auditor-General audited Parliament’s 2007 disclosures in respect of directorships, the vast majority of hon members of Parliament were found to have complied with the provisions of our code.
This brings me to the report and the complaint against the hon Minister Balfour. Perhaps understandably, this report evoked enormous interest in both the written and electronic media. Quite clearly, the rights of the media are enshrined in and protected by our Constitution and, needless to say, we respect those rights and it is our duty to defend those rights, which we do. We do, however, wish to make this humble appeal to certain sections, and I stress certain sections of our media, not to make premature judgements on these matters.
It is significant that the decision of the ethics committee was taken unanimously. Every single member present in that meeting agreed with the findings contained in the reports. With these few words, I take this opportunity to convey our thanks to the registrar of member’s interests and the staff for the efficient manner and the hard work they put into expediting these matters. My thanks also to all members of the ethics committee for the responsible manner in which they considered these matters. We commend these reports to this honourable House and ask that they be adopted and, where required, be acted upon. I thank you.
There was no debate.
Question put: That the recommendations as contained in the Report of Joint Committee on Ethics and Members’ Interests on Findings of the Auditor- General with respect to audit of disclosure of interests by Members be agreed to.
Agreed to.
Question put: That the Report of Joint Committee on Ethics and Members’ Interests on Complaint against Minister B M N Balfour be adopted.
Agreed to.
VISIT TO ISRAEL, WEST BANK, GAZA STRIP AND SYRIA
STUDY TOUR TO WESTERN SAHARA AND ALGERIA
(Consideration of Reports)
There was no debate.
Ms L MALONEY: Chairperson, I move on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party:
That the Reports be adopted.
Motion agreed to.
SUSPENSION/REMOVAL FROM OFFICE OF MAGISTRATE S P ZWELIBANZI, AN ADDITIONAL MAGISTRATE AT NGQAMAKHWE
SUSPENSION/REMOVAL FROM OFFICE OF MAGISTRATE X R I MASIMINI
PROVISIONAL SUSPENSION OF MAGISTRATE A BACHARAM
(Consideration of Reports)
Mr J B SIBANYONI: Chairperson and hon Members of Parliament, these are the reports in terms of the recommendations by the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development. The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development has discussed the reports and I stand here today to say that the Portfolio Committee supports the recommendations made by the hon Minister. Thank you, Chairperson.
There was no debate.
Question put: That the recommendations of the committee be adopted, namely, that Mr S P Zwelibanzi not be restored to office.
Agreed to.
Decision not to restore Mr S P Zwelibanzi to office accordingly confirmed. Question put: That the recommendation of the committee be adopted, namely, that Mr X R I Masimini not be restored to office.
Agreed to.
Decision not to restore Mr X R I Masimini to office accordingly confirmed.
Question put: That the recommendation of the committee be adopted, namely, that the provisional suspension of Ms A Bacharam be confirmed.
Agreed to.
Provisional suspension of Ms A Bacharam accordingly confirmed.
The House adjourned at 17:02. ____
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
The Speaker and the Chairperson
- Bills passed by Houses – to be submitted to President for assent
1) Bills passed by National Assembly on 20 November 2008:
a) Provision of Land and Assistance Amendment Bill [B 40D – 2008]
(National Assembly – sec 75).
b) National Prosecuting Authority Amendment Bill [B 23D – 2008]
(National Assembly – sec 75).
c) South African Police Service Amendment Bill [B 30D – 2008]
(National Assembly – sec 75).
- Introduction of Bill
(1) The Ad Hoc Committee on National Youth Development Agency Bill
a) National Youth Development Agency Bill [B 82 – 2008] (National
Assembly – proposed sec 75) [Draft Bill and memorandum setting
out its objects published in Government Gazette No 31530 of
24 October 2008.]
Bill initiated by the Ad Hoc Committee on National Youth
Development Agency Bill of the National Assembly, and referred
to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in
terms of Joint Rule 160.
In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification
of the Bills may be submitted to the JTM within three
parliamentary working days.
National Assembly
The Speaker
-
Membership of Committees
a) Mr V G Smith has been elected as Chairperson of the Standing Committee on the Auditor-General with effect from 18 November 2008.
COMMITTEE REPORTS
National Assembly
-
Report of the Committee on Private Members’ Legislative Proposals and Special Petitions on the legislative proposal to amend the Competitions Act, No 89 of 1998 dated 20 November 2008.
The Committee on Private Members’ Legislative Proposals and Special Petitions, having considered the legislative proposal to amend the Competitions Act, No 89 of 1998 submitted by Mrs P De Lille, and having consulted with the Department of Trade and Industry, recommends that permission not be given to the member to proceed with the proposal, as the recent amendments to the Competition Act already address the objectives of the legislative proposal.
Report to be considered.
-
Report of the Committee on Private Members’ Legislative Proposals and Special Petitions on the legislative proposal on outlawing the use of transfats in food prepared for sale to the public, dated 19 November 2008
The Committee on Private Members’ Legislative Proposals and Special Petitions, having considered the legislative proposal on outlawing the use of transfats in food prepared for sale to the public, submitted by Dr R Rabinowitz, and having consulted with the Department of Health, recommends that permission not be given to the member to proceed with the proposal.
-
Report of the Ad Hoc Committee on the National Youth Development Agency Bill [B82 – 2008] (National Assembly – proposed sec 75), dated 20 November 2008:
On 23 September 2008 a resolution was passed by the National Assembly establishing the Ad Hoc Committee to consider legislation on the National Youth Development Agency.
The Committee gave prior notice of introduction of the draft legislation in Government Gazette No 31530, dated 24 October 2008. The Gazette also contained an invitation to interested persons and institutions to submit written submissions on the draft legislation. The Committee held public hearings on the submissions received and deliberated.
The Committee hereby reports that it has completed its deliberations on the matter and, in accordance with Assembly Rule 243, introduces the National Youth Development Agency Bill [B 82– 2008] (National Assembly – proposed sec 75).
-
Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the Amending Draft Notice and Schedule submitted in terms of section 2(4) of the Judges Remuneration and Conditions of Employment Act, 2001 (Act No 47 of 2001), determining the rate at which salaries are payable to Constitutional Court judges and judges annually, dated 19 November 2008:
The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the Amending Draft Notice and Schedule submitted in terms of section 2(4) of the Judges Remuneration and Conditions of Employment Act, 2001 (Act No 47 of 2001), determining the rate at which salaries are payable to Constitutional Court judges and judges annually, referred to it, recommends that the House approve the said Amending Draft Notice and Schedule.
Request to be considered.