FRIDAY, 14 MARCH 2008 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
                                ____

The Council met at the Govan Mbeki Stadium, Tlokwe Municipality in Ikageng at 10:15.

The Acting Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

                    WELCOMING OF DEPUTY PRESIDENT

The ACTING CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Order! I would like to welcome the Deputy President of the Republic of South Africa to the sitting of the National Council of Provinces in Tlokwe Local Municipality here in Ikageng. I am pleased that the Deputy President has graced this occasion to address us. I therefore call upon the Deputy President to address us.

      PARLIAMENT EMPOWERING COMMUNITIES FOR POVERTY ERADICATION

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Acting Chairperson of the NCOP, hon Hollander, hon Premiers, hon MECs present here, hon mayors, councillors, distinguished guests, and members of communities, I greet you all.

Dumelang bagaetsho! [Ladies and gentlemen!]

We meet today under the theme ``Parliament Empowering Communities for Poverty Eradication’’. This is a gathering of government, Parliament, communities, organised civil society, representatives of business formations, farmers, farmworkers, youth, people with physical disabilities and the many important people who make up this beautiful nation of ours.

Correctly, we are here to confront the many issues not only because they occur in this community but because they occur in many communities in South Africa. This is despite the fact that many of our leaders and other people in communities are doing a lot of work to improve the conditions on the ground. However, despite all of that work, we know that there is a lot that we still need to do. I am aware, for instance, that, in this province, a lot of ground has been covered in relation to delivery of services. However, I also know that there are many needs in the communities that we still need to pay attention to, and that is why we are here – to make that commitment.

I want to congratulate the National Council of Provinces once again for organising this five-day programme and ensuring that the interests of the people in this province and those of South Africa in general are heard. This forum is about promoting public participation in decision-making processes. Some of the things that you will raise today will end up as regulations, laws and programmes because, when we go back, we will reflect and look at how we could ensure that the next time we come here, we will be coming to bring you good news. We are also here because indeed we want to build an effective people’s Parliament that is responsive to the needs of the people and that is able, together with you, to work towards realising a better quality of life for all our people. The National Council of Provinces has been a champion in the programme of Taking Parliament to the People. At the same time, we have constituency offices in different parts of the country charged with the same task. And of course, as political parties, we also ensure that in our own work we accomplish the same goals.

This province is mainly rural and, in its own way, has the difficulties of being a poor province but not the poorest of our provinces. It has lots of other things that are positive what with it having platinum. But, of course, the challenge is to ensure that the wealth it generates, and the infrastructure that it has laid out so dedicatedly in order to grow the economy has a way of creating shared growth. Where we have poverty, such as we have in different parts of our country, inequality becomes one of our biggest challenges. As Nelson Mandela said:

Overcoming poverty is not a gesture of charity. It is an act of justice. It is the protection of a fundamental human right, the right to dignity and a decent life.

For us, as elected representatives, this is actually our reason to exist, our reason to be – in the form of the tasks that we have responsibility for when we get elected. So, while poverty persists, we cannot talk about the full freedoms for all our people.

It is encouraging that we have seen unemployment levels in our country coming down. However, the number of people that are entering the labour market seeking employment has become even higher. The worrying thing for us in this regard is the fact that many of the people who are entering the labour market are younger, ill-equipped, unskilled and semi-skilled.

It is therefore our contention that those young people who are dropping out of school without adequate preparation for the world of work must go back to school. [Applause.] There is no short-cut about that! It is our view, difficult as it is for many of our MECs in education, that we have to find a way within our further and education training, FET, system to accommodate some of these people in our Adult Basic Education and Training, Abet, programmes and some of the activities that can happen on the same premises in a makeshift structure so that these institutions are able to operate the full 24 hours of the day.

In our day and age, there is not a concept of ingudu. If you are older and you are beyond school-going age, it does not mean you cannot be skilled. If you stay out of school you are going to be walking around for the next 15 years without finding a proper job. If you go back to school for two to three years, you will get a solid qualification, and you will be made for the rest of your life. [Applause.]

In a survey on social transformation and delivery in 2007, we found the following indications about the North West: About 90% of households have piped water and therefore, we must finish the remaining 10%; 82,3% use electricity as a source of domestic power and 90,1% have access to sanitation. These are above the RDP standards. It is also above the Millennium Development Goals and even exceeds the Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative for South Africa, Asgisa, goals. I therefore would like to challenge the North West and say we should for universal access. We are so close, and I’m sure you can do it. [Applause.]

I want to focus again on the issue of poverty because this is the theme that has brought us together here today. Poverty is a multidimensional phenomenon. Therefore, in dealing with it, we need to address it in different ways. Poverty entails the lack of steady income, the lack of access to decent social infrastructure, food insecurity and, in many cases, lack of skills or poor education. It implies ill-health, exploitation, brings about a sense of powerlessness and destroys social cohesion. Therefore, when poverty exists, freedom is compromised.

During the state of the nation address, the President spoke of an antipoverty war room. I want to invite all of you as soldiers and generals in this war against poverty into this antipoverty war room. What do we want to see in this antipoverty war room? We want to address the skills issue, and we want to pay particular attention from early childhood development to Grade 12.

We would like to see a situation where all of our children go through those formative years that lead them to Grade 12 without leaving the school system. We therefore are sourcing, quite significantly, the availability of teachers in the communities or caregivers in the community who will look at children and early learning development. Also, we are urging parents to pay attention to the issue of children who are dropping out. Many children drop out around Grade 9. Now, when they have gone up to Grade 9, it is a great investment that we as a society have made, but it is not enough for them to go out and face the world. So we spend a lot of money to have a half-baked potato that cannot go out and grow in society. If we are unable to take them through to Grade 12, that investment becomes expenditure that is wasteful.

So the issue of investing in the first years of learning up to Grade 12 is an important part of the war room. If you are a soldier with us inside the war room, some of you must dedicate yourselves to just paying attention to that. Of course, we do want people who want to go beyond Grade 12 and so we also continue to ensure that you acquire additional skills after Grade 12.

In the war room, we also want to address issues of economic self-reliance. You are aware that the most successful intervention by this government in addressing poverty has been the income transfer that is transferred through the grants and go to vulnerable people in our society - old people, children and disabled people. By their very nature, this core of our community who are vulnerable people, are not the people that you are deploying to grow the economy. You are supporting them because they cannot support themselves.

The challenge that we have in addressing poverty is income transfer to the people who can continue to be productive because these are the people that are missing in the economy. When we talk about our economy not accelerating and being shared enough, it is because there is a core of people who are healthy and able-bodied who, however, have no income and are not participating productively.

It is for that reason that we argue in the war room that the private sector has to be there because these are the young people that we need to skill in our National Youth Service, in our public works, in our further education and training colleges and other programmes, so that they can exit those programmes to economic and productive activity.

Government does not have the capacity to absorb all these people alone. We all have to bite the bullet in South Africa in solidarity with the poor and give the young people a starting chance. If we don’t take them on board so that they are able to get a foot in the door in the place of work, some of them will reach the age of 40 without ever having worked, and that is a tragedy for society, because then they become chronically poor.

Again, in the war room, we also talk about the importance of social cohesion because, if we do not have norms and values that unite us, we will not be in a position to be one nation. In that regard, issues such as gender oppression, racism and all kinds of violence that we experience in our community become an important part of fighting poverty.

I do not believe that poor people are violent. I do not think that it is also fair to say that most of the crimes that we see are committed by poor people. There are other reasons why people commit these acts of violence. These include the breakdown of families. In the antipoverty war room, we talk about the reconstruction of families.

We also talk about the economic reconstruction of a family. We are urging municipalities and we are urging provinces to have the database, which many of them have, because of the indigent policies that we have through which we are able to say in each family: What is the future of this family? What is the turnaround strategy that can obtain in this family in order to make sure that someone or some people in this family will ensure that the next generation in this family will not be poor? We all know - and I don’t think that we say that enough - that the biggest warrior against poverty in any situation is a family but, as government, as society, we need to have a contract with the families so that the families take responsibility for their own development. It is not right for families to be passive in the fight against poverty and for other service providers, government and otherwise, to be the ones that are spoon-feeding the families.

The partnership and the contract with the poor must be a two-way relationship where we invest in the fight against poverty but, also, the families take responsibility to fight in their own right so that they can sustain the victories and the gains against poverty. What we seek therefore in this new approach to fighting poverty is not just to provide food security. It is not just to reduce the level of poverty in a household. What we seek to achieve is to reduce the number of people who are poor and, therefore, there has got to be a way in which, through our intervention in every household, we leave a family that is not poor.

As long as we continue to have people that are relatively poor, we have not even begun to fight the fight. Those people must break the cycle of poverty forever. When I look at many of us here, hon members, and some members of our society - the black middle class and so on - it is not true that people are poor because they have won a tender. People improve their quality and status of their family in the main because of education. It is because someone in your family has been educated enough and has taken it upon themselves to make sure that poverty will not reign in their family. And, therefore, you take the little resources that you have and you invest in the education of your siblings and cousins and so on. That is the biggest and most reliable strategy to turnaround poverty. [Applause.]

We also know that, if in a family there isn’t this one person who has got the capacity to do that, then we must close ranks with the family. However, then the members of the family must take the responsibility for looking after other members of the family and, in that way, we build a nation, have social cohesion and it is irreversible. It is going to be those people who invest in the education of their siblings who will be able to tell us when the sibling is going off the rails and tell them that they are now becoming wasteful. Why are you a thug when I have invested in educating you?

So, we need to involve the families in the fight against poverty. I hope the community that is here agrees with us on that approach. Are we agreed? [Applause.]

Now, the government of the North West province has taken the issue of moral regeneration very seriously. Moral regeneration is also an important component of fighting poverty. We need it because it is through such programmes that we are able to invest in value development.

So as we move forward, rebuilding our country and community, everybody has a role to play. There is something that is called, “the power of one”. When it comes to some of the challenges that we have pointed out in our antipoverty campaign, such as health and communicable diseases such as HIV and Aids, we argue that you must take responsibility as an individual not to be infected. You must also take responsibility as an individual not to infect yourself and other people if you are already infected.

You must take the responsibility of taking your treatment and also using the facilities that are available from government. As a society, we must provide the support system. When it comes to the ultimate defeat of this horrible disease, it depends on you and me. If I am infected I shouldn’t infect another person and not re-infect myself. I should live a responsible life so that I live longer.

If you are not infected, stay like that, as you know what to do. [Applause.] You don’t have to join an organisation to make that decision, it is your own choice; you made it and should live by it. As we heard from other speakers, I hope that today we will get much more ideas on how, as a collective, we can improve the quality of life, the status of health and the quality of education, but more than anything else, the responsibility.

It is not on that we should always put the blame on the government. Government has to take the responsibility for everything. If we do something wrong, we must be called to order. We will never succeed unless the community take its own responsibility. We must lead ourselves.

Sukukhokela abanye abantu. Okwakho nje kukuba uzikhokele wena buqu. [Don’t lead other people. Be your own leader and order your own life. I thank you.] [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M Oliphant): Thank you very much, hon Deputy President. I will appeal to all members to follow what the Deputy President has done. I didn’t call her to order because her time had not expired. In fact, she even has left two minutes left, and therefore I will appeal to all members to do the same. I will now call the hon Acting Chairperson of the NCOP, hon Peggy Hollander.

The ACTING CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Hon House Chairperson, hon Madam Deputy President, hon Premiers, hon Speaker, hon members of the NCOP, hon Chairperson of the SA Local Government Association, Salga, in the province, councillors, ladies and gentlemen, I greet you all: Dumelang, good morning, sanibonani nonke. I would like to start by thanking the Deputy President for her empowering address on the need to exert ourselves in the fight against poverty.

On behalf of the NCOP, I wish to express our appreciation to the Presidency for the continued support as we embark on this programme from province to province. Most importantly, I would like to thank you, in particular, Madam Deputy President, in your capacity as the Leader of Government Business, for ensuring that members of the Cabinet continue to join us as we engage with communities in different parts of the country. It is worth noting that the success of this week’s activities was due in part to the active participation of the Ministers.

The benefit of this programme is that it brings together leaders from local, provincial and national government. It therefore provides an opportunity for our people to see co-operative governance in action. Of course, if it was not for the active participation of the Premier, members of the executive, the mayors from the local and district municipalities, and the councillors, we would not have been able to have lively engagements with the people as one government.

The Taking Parliament to the People Programme is one of the mechanisms designed to assist us as public representatives to continue the dialogue with our people around service delivery challenges. It serves as a platform to engage and facilitate feedback from our communities in order to inform the choices we make as we continue to extend the benefits of democracy. By initiating this programme, the NCOP had the following two main objectives: To facilitate public participation in Parliament and to promote public education of the NCOP and our democracy.

Our first visit to the Eastern Cape in 2002 and other subsequent visits highlighted the need to continue to engage our people in order to enable them to take part in Parliament to the extent of directly influencing the laws that we make. It became clear that meaningful public participation would remain elusive unless we went to the people. The grassroots response to this initiative has been positively overwhelming as is evident by the huge number of participants, including women and the youth.

The Constitution states that the NCOP represents provinces to ensure that provincial interests are taken into account in the national sphere of government. It does this mainly by participating in the national legislative process and by providing a national forum for public consideration of issues affecting provinces. It is with great pleasure that today we are able to declare that, since the initiation of this public education and public participation initiative in 2002, we have extended our footprints across each of our nine provinces.

While we may have only touched certain parts of provinces we have visited, we have been able to get a clear sense of the service delivery challenges across the country. As we enter the second leg of this programme with our visit here this week, we are alive to the main challenge that confronts us at this stage in our democracy.

Deputy President, this challenge is a reality in the sense that wherever we go, whether in Limpopo, Free State, KwaZulu-Natal or any of our provinces, our people are facing similar challenges. They talk about long distances to the health facilities, long queues at hospitals and clinics, shortages of professional health personnel, challenges in education, unemployment and challenges with the implementation of the indigent policy for sustainability of government interventions.

There might be some differences in emphasis, but the challenges are quite similar. Clearly, we need a collective response. It is a matter of fact that, through the Taking Parliament to the People Programme, the NCOP has become the recipient of the challenges and proposed interventions raised by the people and the leaders. Through this programme and follow-up work, the NCOP is in a position to make a follow-up to see what has worked, in which locality, province and under which circumstances.

What this points to is the fact that the NCOP is a better place to assess the challenges that the people continue to raise against current government interventions. It is also a better place to approach government with recommendations on how best we think these challenges should be addressed. I submit that this is perhaps one of the areas we have not explored sufficiently as the NCOP. As the Chairperson, I am saying this because our role cannot only entail monitoring what the executive is doing; it must, as a matter of course, also include raising their own perspectives and inputs on how best we can change the circumstances under which our people live for the better.

Our experience has shown that central to resolving the challenges facing our people are the availability and utilisation of the resources provided by government. In this respect, we have the ability to indicate from our intergovernmental fiscal perspective whether sufficient resources are being deployed and efficiently utilised to improve service delivery.

Members would agree that one of the tools we have in this regard is the annual Division of Revenue Bill. I share the view that if it is deemed necessary to ensure responsiveness to our prevailing challenges, we must be prepared to reconsider our processes to accommodate as much of the inputs from the provinces as possible.

Parliament’s theme for this year, “Parliament empowering Communities for Poverty Eradication”, is a bold and ambitious statement. Through empowering our communities, we believe that we can contribute immensely towards the goal of halving poverty and unemployment by 2014. However, we must involve the people in coming up with solutions and alternatives towards creating a better life and quality of life for all.

Furthermore, communities must partake in the process. We cannot, when we have clear government policies, have in our midst schools such as the Agisanang farm school, which is located in a poverty-stricken community and is running without a school nutrition programme. I am happy with the commitments made to address, as soon as possible, the challenges raised in relation to this particular school.

What I have observed though, during this week’s and some of the other visits, is that people often get the impression that these public engagements are meant to provide solutions to all their problems; no, that is not correct. Government has dedicated programmes in place in the service of the people. Of course, the challenge is whether people know or make use of such programmes.

Also, people cannot wait for a visit of this nature before they raise some issues that impact negatively on development. This includes where there are allegations of corruption, fraud or any other offences. The police and other state bodies such as the Office of the Public Protector are there to receive, investigate and ensure that those matters are concluded.

The democracy we enjoy today provides for certain rights. These include the right of people to express their views, including through marches or demonstrations. However, in the exercise of our right to march or demonstrate, we should always uphold the rule of law and respect the rights of other people.

If we display a flagrant disregard for the rule of law, the state has a right to intervene. It does not matter how agitated we are, we have no right to burn the houses of councillors as a means of protest. If that happens, the rule of law must take its course, and members of the Police Service have every right to act against such people. We support the work they are doing in ensuring that we keep the integrity of the institutions of democracy and the hard-won democratic order intact.

In fact, what democracy demands of us is a partnership between the people and the leadership. If we do not want this or that leader, democracy allows us to voice that peacefully. Otherwise, if we do not respect our leaders, we must know that we cannot demand respect when we in turn occupy positions of leadership, and that is a recipe for chaos.

We are also aware that there may have been some people who, during our public engagements here, have sought to take advantage of the platform that we made available to further their own agendas. We are clear about the contract we have with the people and we will not be sidetracked from our goal of ensuring that people are uplifted from poverty and that their lives are improved. Towards this end, we are committed to performing our task of ensuring that the issues raised here receive the necessary attention.

We will employ different follow-up mechanisms, including ensuring that certain issues are referred to specific committees for detailed examination and feedback. As per practice, we will produce a detailed report covering all issues raised here this week. The report will be sent to the executive at national, provincial and local level for consideration and action. At some point, we will come back to give feedback and to check whether the issues you raised have been attended to.

The follow-up visits are an important tool when it comes to our oversight work. During these visits some communities have told us, for example, that the road they complained about was not attended to for years until a few days or weeks before our next visit. Definitely, that is not the delivery that we had promised the people.

Empowering communities means that government must invest in quality service delivery and that, in turn, people assist their public representatives in ensuring that resources are correctly and effectively distributed. Let us commit to ensuring that, together with our communities, we join hands in fighting poverty, because our people deserve better conditions of living and human dignity. I thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): Hon members, I just want you to take note that there is a chair on my right, where the next speaker must sit and await his or her turn to speak.

Mr A WATSON: Hon Deputy President, Acting Chairperson, Chair,…

… agbare lede, ander hooggeplaastes, dames en here, [… hon members, other dignitaries, ladies and gentlemen,]

… dumelang kaofela bomme le bontate ba mona Potchefstroom, le ba tlileng ka dibese mona Mafikeng ke a le dumedisa. [… greetings to you all ladies and gentlemen here in Potchefstroom, and those who came to Mafikeng by bus; I greet you all.]

Eradication of poverty is indeed the biggest challenge facing the government of this country. Parliament has a very important role to oversee the empowering of communities in this regard. Listening to the people this week and, in fact, at previous visits across the length and breadth of this country, it is obvious that government has failed dismally in this regard. Municipalities are literally falling apart all over the country.

For more than a year, the DA councillors of Mbombela and I have urged the government to intervene in the council of my province’s capital because service delivery had come to a complete standstill, mainly as a result of ANC infighting. Now, at last, the mayoral committee has been stripped of its powers; administrators have been appointed; and next week, the select committee of the NCOP will investigate the intervention. But, in November last year, when I raised the question again in a similar debate in the Western Cape, my hon Premier called me a liar, but let me assure this House that, as I stand here today, more than 200 resolutions affecting service delivery have still not been implemented in that municipality.

Among the many complaints that we heard this week was one from a seasoned builder who has built 50 houses and 20 toilets some time ago - structures that he says are sturdy and are presently happily occupied, but the poor man has still not been paid for his labours.

In contrast to this, I can testify that some 40 houses have recently collapsed on their occupants … [Interjections.]

Mr V V Z WINDVOËL: Chair, I just want to find out if the hon member is in the right province because we are in the North West and he is speaking about Mbombela issues here.

Mr A WATSON: I am talking about municipalities, Chair. He is wasting my time. He knows he is. [Laughter.]

THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): Order! Continue, hon member.

Mr A WATSON: The truth hurts. So, he is trying to stop the truth, but he is not going to succeed.

I am saying that, in contrast to this, I can testify that some 40 houses have recently collapsed on their occupants in Emzinoni in Mpumalanga because of shoddy workmanship and insufficient cement. But, in this case, the contractors were paid in advance and they have now disappeared. It seems to me that service delivery has merely become a conduit for corruption and the empowering of those with government connections. This week, some participants have even claimed and stated that government connections have now been narrowed down to a certain faction within the governing party. What a shame!

The burning question is: What role can Parliament play in ensuring that empowering does in fact take place? The answer is quite simple. The Constitution charges Parliament, particularly the NCOP, with the duty of conducting regular and constructive oversight. That is why these sessions of Taking Parliament to the People and regular oversight visits by committees are so important.

But then we must listen to the people and not shut them up when the truth emerges. [Applause.] We must not, as happened on Wednesday, refuse audience to a grey-haired old man who has been waiting in the queue for hours, supposedly in the interests of time, but then follow with a real waste of time by inviting a Member of Parliament to talk on stage about his experience in the apartheid era in a clear attempt to deflect criticism and to manipulate the emotions of the audience who have come here to talk about their problems. [Applause.]

We must also not come here to do window-dressing. We must get back to the people to ensure that the problems raised by them have been addressed. [Applause.] We can only do that when we know what the people have said and what was promised to them from stages like this one by the leaders in their community. [Applause.] But I have bad news for you, my people.

Basotho ba re: “Ho tseba kotsi, ke ho feta pela yona”. Mamelang ke le jwetse, kotsi ke eo kajeno! [There is a Basotho saying that goes: “One has to go through a particular event in order to know about it”. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): Order, please! Hon members, this is a formal sitting of the NCOP. To the communities, you are sitting there in the gallery of the NCOP. In terms of the Rules of the NCOP, you are not allowed to clap hands or hustle the member, and that includes some members of the NCOP. They can heckle one another, but I am not going to allow that as well. You may continue, hon member.

Mr A WATSON: Ke re kotsi ke eo! [I say an accident is coming our way!]

Last year, at the end of October, we had a similar excursion to the people of Pniel.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, on a point of order: Is Mr Watson addressing the NCOP or is he in a rally in Ikageng? Which one is which?

Mr A WATSON: I will speak because it is my democratic right! [Interjections.]

I said that last year we went to Pniel on a similar excursion, and some of the committees of the NCOP were scheduled to go and revisit the place next week to check on what had been done in the meantime in the last six months. However, those visits were cancelled because the report has not yet been written! We are unable to send the committees there because they do not know what to investigate, and the provinces do not know what to fix. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Chairperson, I take exception to the fact that the hon member is misleading this House about an issue of substance. He was part of the deliberation in dealing with the issue. He has the audacity to come before this House and lie blatantly. [Interjections.]

Mr G R KRUMBOCK: You are lying yourself!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): What he is saying is inaccurate, Chairperson. He is misleading this House.

Mr A WATSON: How can he call me a liar?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Mrs M N Oliphant): Order, hon members! Hon Setona, can you withdraw the word “lie”. The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): I withdraw it unconditionally, Chairperson. [Applause.] But I think the hon member is not telling the truth. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant) Order! No, hon member! I said you must just withdraw it. [Interjections.] Hon Krumbock, can you also withdraw the word “lying”. Just withdraw it! Hon Krumbock, I am talking to you.

Mr G R KRUMBOCK: Chairperson, Mr Setona said that Tony Leon shot people from a helicopter … [Interjections.] I am not going to withdraw that because that is a lie.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): Order! Hon Krumbock, I said you must withdraw that.

Mr G R KRUMBOCK: No, I am not going to withdraw that. Tony Leon did not shoot anybody from helicopters. I will not withdraw that. [Interjections.] Forget it!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): Order, please! Hon Krumbock, can you withdraw that word? Hon Krumbock, I am the presiding officer here. Either you abide by the Rules of the NCOP or you leave this House. [Interjections.]

Where upon the member withdrew from the Council. Hon Watson, you may continue. Order, members!

Mr A WATSON: Chair, my party is often chastised for criticising the practice of Taking Parliament to the People, but our criticism is about the effectiveness and not the need. We support the principles and directives of the Constitution, but certainly not as a smoke screen to bluff the people. We cannot promise people attention to their service delivery needs if we do not record those needs effectively and are not able to follow them up properly. [Interjections.] [Time expired.]

Rev P MOATSHE: Chairperson, I want to say to the hon Watson that your time expired in 1994, when you failed the people of this country. You participated in the then government and because you could not sustain apartheid by empowering the few - everything went down the drain - that is why you gave in. And, therefore, 13 years down the line, the ANC is on course to turn around things but to turn around things not only materially but to turn around things also on a spiritual level.

Therefore you must create space. Don’t stand here and criticize everything from A to Z but give the positives. What does your party have to give to our people? We are not saying that if our leaders are doing wrong, they are right. They must be reprimanded.

The ANC is against corruption and fraud on all levels and that has to be addressed at all times. Therefore we challenge you on that score.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): Hon members. Order! Please.

Mor P MOATSHE: Modulasetulo, ntetle ke go leboge, ke leboge le botlhe ba ba leng fano. Pula!

Motswana a re tlogatloga e tloga kgale modisakgomo o tswa natso … (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)

[Rev P MOATSHE: Chairperson, allow me to thank you and everybody who is present here. Peace!

As the Batswana put it, “Time and tide wait for no man.”]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): Hon members, I am not going to allow the members from the Northwest to disturb these proceedings. The two hon members who are sitting at the back, can you please behave. Thank you. Hon member, you may continue.

Rev P MOATSHE: Tshipu o rile ke lebelo motlhaba wa re ke namile … [The law has a very long arm …]

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: On a point of order, Chairperson, Chairperson, I accept your ruling. I would just like to request that those members of the public here who are interjecting and shouting at Members of Parliament please be removed.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): Hon members, I have informed the public about the proceedings of this House. The hon members are also intimidating whoever is speaking if that person is saying something they don’t like. I think we have to tolerate each other here. We are all members from the different political parties but, at the same time, I am not going to excuse that, from the NCOP members in particular, because we are members of the NCOP representing the interests of provinces. Hon member, you may continue.

Mor P MOATSHE: Bagaetsho, ke bua le baeteledipele le baagi; tau di tlhokang seboka di siiwa ke none e tlhotsa. Motswana a re tshwaragano ke maatla, a e se re bona e tlhotsa ra e nametsa thaba. A re tlogeleng go otlana ka noga e tshela mme re nne le mokgwa wa go bontsha gore re tlhogile. (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)

[Rev P MOATSHE: Hon members, as citizens and leaders, we should note that united we stand, divided we fall. As the Batswana put it: “Unity is strength”. There is no need to be at loggerheads, instead, our maturity should be reflected in how we solve our differences.] We’ve become mature and there are ways of dealing with issues in a very mature manner …

… gore re se ka ra dia go lwantsha tlala e e re tlhasetseng. Pesalome 127 ya re: [… so that we avoid any delays against the poverty eradication that affects us. Psalm 127 says …]

If you laugh at this quotation, you are inviting a curse onto yourself. Let it not be the case. Don’t undermine quotes from the Scriptures because you will invite a curse on yourself.

Ya re fa baagi ba aga mme e se Modimo yo o agang le bona, go aga ga bona ke ga lefela. Fa motlhokomedi kgotsa modisa a disitse mme e se Modimo yo o disitseng le ena, go disa ga gagwe ke ga lefela. Ka jalo, tshwaragano e ka re letla gore re kgone go lwantsha tlala e e tlhasetseng lefatshe la rona.

Temakgolo ya re nonotsho ya baagi ke Palamente go fedisa tlala. Baagi ba Tlokwe, Ventersdorp, Klerksdorp le ba porofense ya Bokone Bophirima a re tshwaraganeng kgatlhanong le ntwa e e setlhogo e ya tlala. Re tshwanetse go fedisa dipharologano tse di re sitisang go tsena mo temeng ya ntwa e gore re lwantshe tlala e e leng teng magareng ga rona.

Go na le mananeo a a leng teng a temothuo a balemirui ba tshwanetseng go a itse gonne ke bona bogare ba twantsho ya tlala le tshireletso ya dijo.

Re na le manaane a tsa t emo a tshegetso a a anameng (Comprehensive Agricultural Support Programme), CASP, e e nayang balemirui ba ba tlhwatlhwa ba ba batlang go tlhagelela mo temothuong tshegetso ya madi. Re na le “manaane a thutokatiso le koketso ya kgonts hotiro (marketing and business development”), “thekiso le tsa tsweletso kgwebo ” le “thekenoloji le thusokeletso(technology and advisory assistance)” mo lefapheng la Temothuo ka jalo CASP e na le maikaelelo le ditsela tse e abelang ba ba batlang go tsena mo temothuong go lwantsha boh uma le tlala ka tsona. (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)

[We set ourselves up for failure if we do not invite God into everything we do. Hence I am saying unity will enable us to fight the poverty which ravages our people.

Our community expects to see Parliament playing a role to ensure that poverty is eradicated. I would like to appeal to the community of Tlokwe, Ventersdorp, Klerksdorp and the people of North West province to join us in the fight against this poverty. We have to put our differences aside if we want to fight poverty amongst ourselves.

There are programmes available, which farmers know about, because these are the people who are involved in fighting poverty and saving food. We have the Comprehensive Agricultural Support Programme, Casp, which provides finance to valuable farmers who would like to improve their farming skills. In the Department of Agriculture, we have programmes for training and capacity-building, marketing and business development and technical and advisory assistance. Therefore, Casp applies a strategy to fund people who want to become farmers and use it to fight poverty.]

The Micro Agricultural Finance Initiative of South Africa, Mafisa, which is the financial pillar of Casp …

… a re batlaneng le yona re tle re kgone go nonotshwa mo ntweng e re leng mo go yona.

Re na le maanaane a kopantsweng a namolo leuba (Integrated Food Security and Nutrition Programme) mo go bonwang diphuthelwa tsa go simolola temo(“agricultural starter packs”), dipeo, didirisiwa tsa temo (“farming implements”), le “dikungwisi”. Batho ba thusiwa ka dilo tse. A re batlisiseng gore mafapha a a kwa kae mo tikologong ya rona, mme fa go na le matsapa puso ya Bokone Bophirima e ka re thusa le go re etleletsa mo ntweng e.

Re na le lenaneo le le bitswang LMP, Livestock Massification Programme, … (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.) [… we should involve ourselves in it so that we are ready to face the current challenge.

We have a programme called the Integrated Food Security and Nutrition Programme where people can get agricultural starter packs, seeds, farming implements and fertilizers. Let us find out where in our area we can find these departments, and if there are any problems, the North West government can assist and sponsor us in this undertaking. We have a programme called LMP, the Livestock Massification Programme, …]

… to increase the country’s livestock production. It is pro-poor in approach …

Go botlhokwa gore re nne barui ba ba tla fanang ka nama mo lefatsheng la rona. Re na le … [It is important to have farmers who will produce meat in our country. We have …

… Land Redistribution for Agricultural Development, LRAD, redressing gender imbalances in land access and land ownership improving the lives of rural women …

Balemirui ba tshwanetse go itse gore ke dintlha dife tse ba tshwanetseng go di batla. [Farmers should know which projects they should focus on.]

The Land and Agrarian Reform Project, LARP, is in line with Presidential Apex Priority No 7, speeding up agrarian reform …

Re tshwanetse go itse manaane otlhe. [We should be informed about these programmes.]

We have the Commonage Programme subsistence e.g. for livestock, grazing and growing crops, vegetable and small-scale farmers, land care and Agri-BEE …

Badiri ba mo dipolaseng ba tshwanetse go sireletswa, ba se ke ba ragiwa e kete kgwele ya dinao gonne le bona ke batho, ba na le seabe se segolo mo kagong ya temothuo go lwantsha bofuma le tlala mo lefatsheng la rona.

Mo ketelong ya balemirui mo bekeng e, re kgonne go phunyeletsa dintlha tse di rileng. Maabane go ne go boetswe go bona balemirui ba ba neng ba na le dingongorego mme Molekgotla-Khuduthamaga wa Temothuo le Merero ya Mafatshe mo Bokone Bophirima, Rre Jan Serfontein … [Nako e fedile.] (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)

[Farmworkers should be protected to ensure that they are not physically abused because they are human beings too, and have a significant role to play in building our agricultural economy to fight poverty in our country.

When we visited farmers this week, we were able to make a breakthrough on certain issues. Furthermore, we went back yesterday to meet with farmers who had complaints and the MEC for Agriculture and Land Affairs in North West, Mr Jan Serfontein … [Time expired.]

The PREMIER OF NORTH WEST (Ms B E E Molewa): Hon Chairperson, I don’t know whether I’m audible enough. Let me follow on the speakers who came before me by recognising protocol. Hon Deputy President of the Republic of South Africa, Mme Phumzile Mlambo-Ngcuka; Acting Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces and all the leadership of the NCOP; hon Speaker of our provincial legislature and the leadership of that legislature; all hon members from the various parties who sit on the National Council of Provinces; all our MECs who are here this morning; Chairperson of the House of Traditional Leaders …

… le dikgosi tsa rona botlhe ba ba teng fano le bomme mma dikgosi [the chiefs present here and their wives …]

… all protocol observed. Let me say good morning to you all, ladies and gentlemen.

We have had very robust debates since the beginning of this week, which have dealt with important issues. These issues came from the hearts and minds of our people. We welcome these robust debates in this august House, and these kinds of debates move and stir the soul of democracy. We have had these discussions in the absence of two hon members from the DA, who only just joined us two days ago. One of them has just been sent out of the House. One wishes that they were here to listen to the people as these robust debates took place, and not come as an attachment later on to voice the kind of things that we always hear them voicing.

The debates of this week have once again proven clearly that we are not only dealing with the structural development issues that are visible to the naked eye. Indeed, they are also about some aspects of the negative social experiences that have an impact on the psyche of our poorest in the society. Unfortunately, we have to keep on saying that some of these things are inherited.

I would like, for one, to emphasise that indeed the robust debates that we have had here are the lifeblood of democracy and are very healthy for democracy. This means that, over the past three days, we have truly witnessed the ardent lamentations of a democracy in its true character, because democracy is about people and making decisions that will lead to the happiness and wellbeing of our citizenry. We understand that.

It is quite a pity though that one has had an opportunity, during the past few days, to sit next to some hon members who were saying: “Listen to how angry the people are.” No, people were expressing their wishes in a very democratic manner. When I stood here on this podium on the first day of the sitting, I said that there is a big difference between debates that are robust and hooliganism. What we have seen here has not been any closer to being angry or even hooliganism, but has been robust debates, which we expect from our people. Therefore, people must not be misunderstood, particularly by other members from the opposition, who think that they can use this platform of the NCOP to pick up some two or three votes.

It is “hands up!” to us, as government, alongside our people, to ensure that the emotions attached to poverty, the emotions attached to degradation and humiliation, the emotions of discrimination, of hopelessness, of despair, are by no means treated as mere feelings by people who have nothing better to do but complain. Therefore that makes the role of the National Council of Provinces very important.

I am happy that today some of us are acknowledging that this programme is very important. I like what the hon Speaker of the North West province always says, that this is the only House in the entire system of government that brings together all three spheres of government, including the dikgosi [chiefs]. It is a very important programme.

It is for this reason that we remain steadfast in our resolve to leave no stone unturned during this critical era that can indeed be characterised as a defining moment in our history, where we must launch a merciless onslaught in our battle plan against poverty.

Although we have not yet reached our destination - and we are the first to acknowledge this at all times – we, in the North West province, as part of the entire system of government, are here to say, yes indeed, we have also participated fully, Madam Deputy President, in efforts to ensure that the national government’s priorities are implemented, in a quest to fight poverty, which we have gathered to talk about here, over this whole week.

The North West province has also implemented the “business unusual” 24 Apex Priorities, as was announced by the hon President in his state of the nation address on 8 February 2008.

We have included these in our programmes and are committed to, amongst other things, ensuring that transformation, and indeed social transformation, does take place, that we accelerate delivery to the poor and also deal with poverty eradication, acceleration of economic growth and development, building of infrastructure, matters of the second economy and also build the scarce skills that we need so critically, which the hon Deputy President spoke about.

The mandate to eradicate poverty indeed becomes implementable at the national and indeed even at a local government level, which, as you know, is where all of us converge. This emphasises the fact that provincial and local government levels are the implementation areas, whilst the national government becomes the area where policies are formulated. And we welcome all the policies that have been formulated up to now.

Earlier on, the hon Deputy President indicated clearly and cited some aspects of delivery that were realised, as reflected in the latest community survey. We would like to say that, as the North West province, through the social cluster priority programmes, we have been able to make an impact on our people’s lives, changing them for the better.

We have managed progressively to expand social services in the province to the rural areas in particular. This is a broad range of programmes that includes improvement in education, health, social development, sports, arts and culture.

Through the provision of these services, many lives have been changed for the better. Be that as it may, we would like to reiterate that more still remains do be done; we are still not satisfied. Therefore, our North West strategy for poverty alleviation, which was finalised in 2007, has now moved to the implementation stage, which includes the formation of a very dedicated war room on poverty. We will get into this war room together with our people and deal with the issues that they have been raising here in the past few days. We have also moved past the many hurdles of inaccessibility of social grants. We have managed to increase the uptake of social grants to a total of just over 1,5 million people.

Coming to the issue of accessibility of health, we would like to indicate that access to health care facilities is indeed a critical matter, which we are dealing with progressively. We want to ensure that we expand these health facilities and health services to our people, understanding very well that accessibility to them also means eradicating poverty.

A comprehensive programme of ensuring that this accessibility of health facilities is attained in the province is beginning to be rolled out, where we are looking at all the clinics that are there, as well as all the facilities that need to be put in place in order to ensure that our people have access to health care facilities. Thank you very much. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr M A MZIZI: Sihlalo, Phini likaMongameli, unwele olude. [Chairperson, Deputy President, greetings to you all.]

Modulasetulo, ntumelle hore ke tshohle makumane a mona le mane ke tshohlele Motlatsa Mopresidente tseo re ileng ra di fumana ha re fihla mona. Motlatsa Mopresidente ke tla qolla feela tse tharo tsa tseo ke ileng ka teana le tsona. Ho na le mme ya ileng a fihla ya sa itekanelang, ya holofetseng ya dulang mane Promosa, baipeing. Sello sa hae ke hore ha ba na seteishene sa maponesa le ha e le satalaete. O ka utlwisisa hore motho ya jwalo mohlomong ha se yena feela, nako tse ding le teng ha a batla ho tla moo ka ditekesi o tlameha ho ntsha R5,00 kapa R6,00 leeto ka leng, hona ha ho bolele hore ha o tlile mona o tla be o se o thusehile. Ba etsa jwang ha e le bosiu? Ke a tseba hore Komishinara wa Profense wa mona o malala-a-laotswe, o mametse hona jwale mme ke tshepa hore re tla fumana raporoto haufinyana.

Ntlha e nngwe ke ya hore ho na le mme e mong ya boletseng hore rapolasi e mong e mosweu o ile a bolaya dikgomo tsa hae. Hore na ke nnete kapa tjhe ha re tsebe, ke seo re se fumaneng. Ho thwe ha a se a bolela, ba re ha ba tsebe se bolaileng dikgomo tseo. (Translation of Sesotho paragraphs follows.)

[Chairperson, allow me to fill you in about news from near and far. Let me tell the Deputy President what we discovered when we arrived here. Deputy President, I will quote only three incidents that I came across. There’s a lady who is disabled who came here, who lives in Promosa squatter camp. Her complaint was the fact that they do not have a police station, not even a satellite one. You will understand that she is not the only one complaining about that. Another issue is that sometimes when she wants to go there by taxi she has to pay R5,00 or R6,00 for a single trip. Even that does not mean that when one gets there one will get the necessary assistance. What happens then during the night? I know that the provincial police commissioner is ready, willing and able, and is therefore listening. I hope we will get a report shortly.

The other issue is of a certain lady who told us that some white farmer had killed her cows. Whether this is true or not we don’t know; that is what we found. However, according to the rumour mill, no one knows what killed those cows.]

I don’t take that with a pinch of salt.

O tswetse pele ka hore dipodi tsa hae di ile tsa lahleha, tsa kena ha motho e mosweu e mong, mme le teng ha a ya moo ha thwe o tla tlameha ho patala tjhelete e kana ka R11 000. O tla e fumana kae? Mohlomong sepheo ke hore a hlolehe hape moruo ona. Ntlha ya ho qetela eo ke ileng ka e fumana ke ya hore ho ile ha ba le mme e mong, eo re ileng ra mmona a itutla-tutlaka fatshe mona e ka o a hlanya kapa o nwele. O ne a sa nwa, ebile o ne a sa hlanye, ho utlwahala hore o ile a ya ho mokhanselara wa hae mme a utlwa mantswe a seng matle ho tswa ho yena. (Translation of Sesotho paragraph follows.)

[She went on to say that her goats strayed and went onto a white person’s farm. When she went to fetch them they said she had to pay an amount of R11

1. Where will she get it from? Perhaps the aim is that she will be unable to pay and therefore lose her property. The last issue I encountered was that there was another lady who we saw throwing herself on the ground like a crazy person or drunkard. She wasn’t drunk and she was also not crazy. It is understood that she went to see a local councillor who said some ugly things to her.]

Dit kom daarop neer dat die uitlating van daardie raadslede het haar eer aangetas. [It boils down to the fact that the remarks by those councillors had impugned her good name.]

Ha re se ke ra bapala ka maikutlo a batho ba bang, le ha re ba bona hore ba kojwana di mahetleng. [Let us not play with other people’s emotions even though we see that they are poor.]

We are equal before the law.

Ke tseo he mme, tseo ke neng ke batla ho o tshohlela tsona. Ya kgaola ya ya, tjhitjamanka. [Mahofi.] [That is all that I wanted to inform you about. [Applause.]

The PREMIER OF THE NORTHERN CAPE (Mrs E D Peters): Madam Deputy President of the Republic of South Africa, Ms Phumzile Mlambo-Ngcuka; hon Acting Chairperson of National Council of Provinces, Premier Molewa; Ms Speaker, Ms Thandi Modise; MECs, Speakers; Mayors; councillors and officials from local government; our traditional leaders, and ladies and gentleman,

Baagi ba porofense ya Bokone Bophirima. [The people of North West province.]

I think the DA must learn that they will never govern this country.

Lefa ba ka ema ka tlhogo … [Even if they try whatever trick …]

… and I think that hon Mzizi has indicated how a member of the NCOP that visits another province should behave: Listen to the issues that have been raised by the members of the community because the NCOP has come here to listen to the people of North West, and you need to be reporting to us who have come to hear from you what the people of North West have said to you as the members of the NCOP. So you would rather tell us about Mbombela, which is in Mpumalanga; you are not telling us about what the people of North West have said to you. [Interjections.]

As we speak today, we stand on the eve of the holiest days of the Christian faith. The Emeritus Anglican Archbishop Desmond Tutu once remarked that and I quote:

And then Easter happened. Jesus rose from the dead. The incredible, the unexpected, happened. Life triumphed over death, light over darkness, love over hatred, good over evil. That is what Easter means - hope prevails over despair.

It is therefore appropriate, hon Chairperson, that we, on the eve of Easter, debate the theme of this important outreach programme by the National Council of Provinces, which is “Parliament empowering communities for poverty eradication”. Hope must prevail over despair. Poverty remains the ANC-led government’s number one enemy. This is not just a national phenomenon but it is also prevalent in the Northern Cape in extreme degrees. It is of interest that one of the three richest people in South Africa started creating their wealth in Kimberley in the Northern Cape. What is also of interest and extreme concern is that, despite this wealth generated by many, we still today struggle with the legacy of colonialism and apartheid. The majority of our people still remain poor. In addressing this serious challenge, it is necessary that we as government embark on processes that will focus on economic development and the redistribution of wealth.

The Northern Cape must certainly be the best example of the dichotomy between rich and poor: Mining companies make profits of billions of rands every year - and according to the recent survey - one in every three persons in the Northern Cape survives on less than a dollar a day or is dependent on government security grants for survival That is why I believe, on behalf of the people of the Northern Cape, hon Acting Chairperson and Deputy President, that the biggest economic victory that the Northern Cape achieved since democracy in 1994 was the relocation of the State Diamond Trader back to its origins where it belongs, the Northern Cape and Kimberley in particular. We are extremely grateful for the support that we received from the President and yourself, Madam Deputy President, in terms of this venture. It is however, now more than ever before, important that we take this process forward and that the practical realities of this benefit come to fruition. I therefore today, hon Deputy President, request that you use your influence and enhance the process of building the physical infrastructure which needs to house the State Diamond Trader in Kimberley. This will prove to the people of the Northern Cape that, as government, we are sincere about our intentions to create a sustainable, effective and efficient society, and ensure that we decentralise economic and industrial activity. This is indeed business unusual and in line with the 24 Apex Priorities announced by the President during the state of the nation address on 8 February. I want to make specific reference to Apex project number one, the Industrial Policy Implementation Plan. We urge all role-players - national, provincial and local - to support us in this venture.

It is also my privilege, Madam Deputy President, to report back to the NCOP that the economic redress Goat Enterprise Programme will be launched on 18 March. We have invited the Deputy President to attend it. I hope you will be able to make it, Deputy President, given the fact that this is an Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative for South Africa, Asgisa, project. With your support and that of other role-players such as the Industrial Development Corporation, we are proud to announce that the male and female farmers will benefit from the sustainable project that will involve the commercialisation of thousands of Boer goats. A lot of planning and strategising went into this process, but we believe that now is the time for less talk and more implementation. We trust and believe that this initiative will also, through the land reform programme, put previously disadvantaged farmers in a position to farm in a sustainable and effective manner.

Hon Chairperson, I also want to use this platform today, in terms of Apex Priority number 4, which is to implement an intensive campaign on energy security, once again to showcase the Northern Cape. Recently during a debate on the energy situation in South Africa, I announced the establishment of the Multisectoral Energy Task Team that will investigate and scrutinise the possibilities and challenges that the Northern Cape faces. I once again want to remind this august House that the Northern Cape is a province where the two main rivers, namely the Orange and Vaal, converge before flowing into the sea at Oranjemund. As a province, we believe that we have the potential to come up with sustainable alternatives in terms of solar, hydroelectrical and nuclear energy solutions. The purpose of this multisectoral task team, which will involve various stakeholders including government, Eskom, agriculture, business and labour, will be to find specific niches where the Northern Cape can contribute to the national grid in addressing the energy crisis. In this context, hon Deputy President, I ask your support to showcase and support the Northern Cape.

To this end I motivate that the national Department of Water Affairs and the Department of Minerals and Energy must consider building at least one or two additional dams in the Orange and Vaal River systems. These proposed dams can be fitted with hydroelectrical generators which will firstly assist with the electricity shortage in South Africa but also create work and opportunities for emerging farmers cultivating the arid land next to the rivers. Linked to that, a channel system can provide water to areas that are currently suffering because of low levels of underground water.

As I stand here today, Madam Deputy President, the people of Colesberg are marching because they have low underground water pressure and they have serious problems with water. In fact, they actually say they want to rename Colesberg to Sonderwater, because we have a problem of water. It is a reality we do have serious problems of water in the Northern Cape and we need to be able to address that type of situation.

According to research, the Northern Cape has more than 300 sunny days in a year. This must be an indication that the possibility of solar energy needs to be investigated. Eskom has already indicated that an experimental solar farm will continue, but I once again request your support in boosting this initiative. The abundance of solar energy can certainly develop the economy and also contribute to the national energy grid. Nuclear energy, according to specialist opinions reflected recently, is the cleanest and safest form of energy. Two sites have been identified at Kleinsee on the west coast of the Northern Cape for possible nuclear plants. The Northern Cape’s department of tourism, environmental affairs and conservation has been tasked to assist the national departments with the evaluation of the environmental impact assessments. Given the recent agreement between the French and South African government, we again reiterate … [Time expired.] I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr F CACHALIA (Gauteng): Deputy President, Chairperson, Acting Chairperson of the NCOP, Premiers, Speakers, mayors, Members of Parliament and councillors, it is a great privilege to have this opportunity to visit the community of Sonderwater, and I want to thank the NCOP for making this possible.

In his state of the nation address to Parliament in 2001, President Thabo Mbeki reflected on the historical origins of the poverty and inequality in South Africa, and identified poverty reduction as one of the key challenges and commitments of our new democracy. Let me quote him:

It is a past of endemic and widespread poverty and gross imbalances in levels of development and the distribution of wealth, income and opportunity. It is a past of an economy that was immersed in a crisis and was destined to worsen.

We had to make the determination that this was a legacy that we did not desire and were therefore committed to eradicate.

The socioeconomic challenges our country faces today are not merely party- political matters. The Constitution requires that all organs of state promote the socioeconomic rights of South African citizens. Poverty reduction is therefore a constitutional imperative.

The poverty that our people experience today all over the country, including here in Sonderwater, is the result of the accumulated experience of dispossession, of oppression and of institutionalised discrimination, and the problem of poverty and inequality is now deeply rooted in our society. I believe that the poor majority - and the African people, in particular - understand this historical truth. Poverty did not arrive in

1. Therefore, to insinuate otherwise, to deny this truth, is simply lacking in any intellectual and ethical truth and integrity.

The reason that poverty is on the agenda in our country today is that we have liberated ourselves; that we live in a democracy which has given our people the right and the freedom to speak the truth and to demand that their government be accountable and that their government addresses their needs and concerns. That is why, now that we for the first time in our history have an elected government based on the will of the people, poverty is and has to be on the national agenda of our country.

We have heard from the Deputy President once more and from all the Premiers what is being done to address poverty across the country -by improving services; by empowering our people through education; through income transfers; through the empowerment of women, and through the expansion of educational opportunity. It will take decades still to complete this task. Along the way, we will stumble. Along the way, there will be weaknesses. Along the way, we will be misdirected and it is important, on those occasions, that we afford our people the opportunity constantly to remind us where the weaknesses are in the implementation of our programmes.

I want to address a different question, because it is clear what government departments must do at all levels to address issues of poverty. What is the role of the representative branch of government in addressing the challenge of poverty eradication? Are all representative bodies equally suited to this task or do they require particular competencies, resources, and expertise? Must they be structured in particular ways? I mean, would the House of Commons, august as that body is, be able to address the challenges that we face in South Africa?

Public participation plays an important role in the formulation and implementation of poverty reduction strategies. Therefore, representative bodies with a poverty reduction agenda cannot be content with simple representation and electoral legitimacy. They must go further and actively promote participation of the poor in decision-making.

How should they be structured in terms of their rules, procedures, committee processes, and the skills of their staff? Too often we think that in answering these questions, all we must do is follow best practice in Australia, New Zealand, and Canada.

How do we ensure that our people have an effective voice in participating in representative bodies when poverty itself deprives the people of the resources that are required for effective participation? It may well be true that votes are now equal, but the capacity to participate in representative politics is not equal. Representative bodies typically have a responsibility for four broad functions that are critical for the development, implementation, and evaluation of poverty reduction programmes, namely representation, budgeting, lawmaking, and oversight.

How should they be resourced in order to promote poverty alleviation strategies? What skills and knowledge do members need in order address poverty effectively? What is the role of oversight? Do the principles underlying the Public Finance Management Act and the goal-driven allocation of resources now provide with us with a basis for strengthening oversight and improving the implementation and formulation of poverty alleviation programmes?

I am sure that the Deputy President and the Premiers – and now that I have had the opportunity to serve in the executive – know that monitoring of implementation, so that we learn from experience, constantly adapting our programmes, and improving their efficacy really is the key challenge. Surely, that is the fundamental role of our representative bodies. The question I am raising is: Are they being adequately resourced and focused on in order to play that role rigorously and effectively over time, because poverty is not being adequately addressed. In addressing this question, we should avoid demagoguery; we should avoid overly partisan politics, because the solutions are not short-term, and the problems are intractable.

I am reminded, colleagues, on this occasion of a famous comment by a famous African revolutionary. I am sure you all remember Amilcar Cabral who once said, and I think this is good advice for members of the governing party and, with respect, for members of the opposition: “Tell no lies, claim no easy victories”.

I want to sincerely congratulate, and I am following really also along the lines of the Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP, the NCOP for doing exactly what I think is right. That is, not simply to borrow institutions, but to shape our democratic institutions in the light of our history and the light of our unique challenges. I think the NCOP is the only second chamber in the world that is engaged in this kind of exercise: Travelling around the country to provide our people with a genuine voice, and that genuine voice has to be a critical voice. We, especially members of the governing party, want to hear the truth that our people tell us. Where there is corruption, where there are weaknesses in our programmes, they must tell us, and we will listen. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Ms B L NTEMBE: Chairperson, hon Deputy President, hon Premiers, hon MECs, hon members, all protocol observed, I cannot make long salutations, because my time is too short. I only have three minutes. [Laughter.]

Chairperson, I greet and acknowledge the presence of our Deputy President today in this House in her annual address to the NCOP. Democracy is e monate [nice] and e monate [nice], indeed. However, it is more e monate [nicer] for some than others. I, as a member of the ID, agree that the majority of South African citizens are still suffering as a result of the previous apartheid regime, and this majority is black. I also admit that Rome was not built in one day, but we cannot condone any injustices that exist in the previous or present regime.

There are injustices that happen that cannot be proved, because not everyone has sight of the relevant documents. People cannot come with the same kind of complaints year after year and those complaints remain an untruth. No, we can fool some of the people some of the time, but we cannot fool all of the people all of the time. The pleading of people for help – as it came up here during this week – is heartbreaking and nothing to laugh about. For people to share water with animals, today still, does not live up to the dignity the Constitution of this country talks about.

We want to extend and make Parliament bigger to be up to standard with the rest of the world; yet, masses of our people live in shacks. National Treasury gives orders to the Department of Foreign Affairs to write off R31 million; yet, a senior citizen – a woman – cannot have R 1000 written off. This is happening in Wepener in the Free State.

I have not been a Member of Parliament all my life; I know what is happening on the ground. The arrogance that some public officials display towards our people in government offices is despicable. We have to get our priorities right if we really want to uplift our people. Where wrong occurs, we have to rectify it. The ID, however, acknowledges the good that has been done. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mrs C M CRONJé (KwaZulu-Natal): Madam Acting Chairperson, I bring greetings from Premier Sibusiso Ndebele of KwaZulu-Natal and his apologies for not being able to be here in person. He asked me to represent the province on this occasion.

We believe the cornerstone of a developmental state is constant dialogue and listening to the voice of the people. Over the past four years, we have made it our mission not just to wait for telephonic or even postal complaints and concerns from our people. We as a country have conducted izimbizo in many areas in the country. As the province of KwaZulu-Natal, we have had izimbizo in every corner of our province. Also, through our NCOP, we are taking Parliament to the people. In our province we have followed a similar process - we are taking Parliament to the people.

I really want to congratulate the NCOP for this initiative. One may underestimate the importance of taking Parliament to the people if one is not sensitive to the history of our country. But, if one understands where we come from, one realises the need the people have to be able to speak to their government, to be able to voice their concerns and issues directly to their government and to meet their government. Gone are the days where the government under apartheid sat in Cape Town and you never saw even the shadow of your government. Here we are with the people. [Applause.]

In KwaZulu-Natal, the Citizen’s Charter is now in place and it lives in harmony, side by side, with our Batho Pele principles and they complement each other. This is a tool which, among other things, demonstrates our commitment to seamless service delivery. The charter sets out mechanisms and recourse that the citizens have, should they feel that the services promised have not been provided. We believe that when we talk about poverty eradication that there are two bases for our economic intervention in KwaZulu-Natal. These are accelerating growth in the economy while at the same time reducing the gap between the first and the second economies.

We must together focus on poverty eradication but, at the same time, we need to focus on the flip side of the poverty coin. There is the need to create wealth amongst a much broader cross section of society. The fact is that the absence of poverty itself does not imply that there is wealth. When we look at Broad-based Black Economic Empowerment, if it is to achieve its stated goals, it calls for an active role for the state. For Broad- based Black Economic Empowerment to be sustainable, the economy must continue to grow at levels which deliver the benefits to the country and to our people, not just to a few, but to our people at a very broad level. This is what is meant by broadening participation in the economy and by building an integrated and inclusive economy that is capable of achieving sustainability at higher growth rates.

In pursuit of this sustainable growth, we have also announced the following projects in KwaZulu-Natal. There is a comprehensive provincial strategy to build infrastructure, including appropriate infrastructure for the 2010 Fifa World Cup. Major infrastructure projects that are currently underway in KwaZulu-Natal would be the Dube Trade Port and Moses Mabhida Soccer Stadium. Then, of course, there are projects throughout all our departments. For instance, in the Department of Education, we spent just under a billion rand in this financial year on infrastructure development.

Furthermore, the objective of the roll-out of the multibillion provincial growth fund is to stimulate the economy and to provide opportunities and access to finance for people who wouldn’t normally have such access. Then there is the establishment of small, medium and micro enterprise Development Fund, also in our province, with participation by leading financial institutions. We have increased funding for the agrarian revolution in the province and the establishment of primary, secondary and tertiary co-operatives in the province. And we have gone very far with our co-operatives and their establishment. I will say a bit more about that later. The overriding consideration is to create and spread wealth amongst a much greater cross section of society than ever before.

When we talk about human resource development, hon Deputy President, I fully agree with you and I like your slogan “Go Back to School!” Normally when we talk about “going back to school”, we have in mind the times when our children go back after the long holidays in December and we then have headlines all over the newspapers saying “Go Back to School”. I really think I am going to pinch this slogan for our province to call on everybody to go back to school. Of course, we have gone a long way in that regard through our FET colleges. We have a very interesting programme in KwaZulu-Natal and that is our Mass Literacy Campaign entitled the Masifundisane Literacy Campaign. As we speak, we have 140 000 previously illiterate adults enrolled in this literacy programme. It was very touching, towards the end of last year, when we had a mass graduation for our adults who had become literate through this campaign. The oldest senior citizen was a lady of 101 years old, and the second oldest was a lady of 96 years of age. [Applause.] What really touched me at that graduation ceremony - because we invited them all and we made a very big show of the whole affair because it really was a very important development in the province – was a lady of 96 years of age who spoke at the event. I must say she is a very sprightly 96-year-old. She said something that really touched us very deeply. She said “Previously, only other people knew my name; now I know my own name”. [Applause.] Obviously, what she meant was that she can now look at her name written down and read it.

The human dignity that you give to people who were previously not literate by bringing them into a literacy campaign is immeasurable. Of course, it is the first step towards the further skilling of our people. Then our Adult Basic Education Training, Abet, programmes come to into play where you have more formal classes, and our skill centres come into play. I really think that we cannot ever underestimate the importance of getting our adults to go back to school. We are not just talking about youth who left school prematurely but we are talking about some older people. You can get somebody of 40 or 50 years of age who never went to school and is without skills, and who needs to get out of that poverty trap. I really think we are not exploring the potential through our FET colleges fully yet, although we are doing a lot in that regard. I feel passionately about very targeted short courses for adults who missed out. In this regard, we are busy with the study jointly between ourselves as education and the department of economic development in our province to identify gaps in the economy and skills gaps and to actually be very targeted in our training. Of course, there is also a huge potential for longer courses. Many people can benefit from short, sharp skills training and then they can become self-employed.

Through the Office of the Premier, we also developed through the assistance of the HSRC … Oh dear, I still had a lot to say, but I will abide. [Time expired.]

Mr J P GELDERBLOM (Western Cape): Chair, Deputy Chair, hon Deputy President, hon Premier, and hon Speaker, thank you very much for the opportunity this morning to participate in this debate. I want to discuss with you certain issues such as the Expanded Public Works Programme in the Western Cape as well as poverty, and I also want to focus on the realities of poverty and unemployment in the Western Cape. I will also say something about the observations made in this province during this week. The poor are seldom poor by choice. Very few people in this world enjoy living on hand-outs. Most poor people know that they are quite capable of earning their living by their own efforts, and are eager to do so, but they must be given a fair chance to compete.

Poverty is hunger. Poverty is lack of shelter. Poverty is being sick and not being able to see a doctor. Poverty is not being able to go to school and not knowing how to read. Poverty is not having a job. It is fear for the future, living one day at a time. Poverty is losing a child to illness brought about by unclean water. Poverty is taking your child to the clinic and spending the whole day waiting with no one even taking your name, and then coming back the next day and the next day. Poverty is an aged person going to the welfare offices to apply for a grant, to be met by someone with a stern face and being told in an unkind and uncaring voice that the person they need to speak with is not available, and that they must come again on another day. Poverty is powerlessness, lack of representation and lack of freedom.

Poverty has many faces that we experience not only here, but in every province. Over the past four years, we in the Western Cape have addressed poverty and made certain that there are job opportunities. Over the past four years, the Western Cape has welcomed 217 investment projects to our province and we have created 61 746 jobs.

On employment and small medium and micro enterprises, 48% of those who procured for our government were historically disadvantaged. Today, 58% are historically disadvantaged and are part of the employment system. In the provincial economy, whose backbone is the SMMEs, not much was done to assist them historically. Over the past four years, we have assisted 38 121 SMMEs. We have plans in place to help our people on the ground.

When it comes to certain programmes, four years ago, 18 549 work opportunities were created through the Expanded Public Works Programme. By December 2007, this number had increased to 118 000.

In respect of agriculture, land reform and restitution, 263 projects and 578 000 hectares were transferred between 2004 and 2007. Through the Comprehensive Agricultural Support Programme, Casp, in 2004 there were 121 projects and 1 450 beneficiaries, while in 2007-08 there were 117 projects and 15 391 beneficiaries. This, Mr Watson, is the ANC government who governs in the Western Cape. That is why I as a white South African can say to you today: Carry on with your speeches. More and more white South Africans will join the ANC. [Applause.] The reason is that more and more people are sick and tired of people who criticise all the time, who are negative towards our fellow South Africans. That is why we say: We are sick and tired of “dikbekke” [difficult people], “suurbekke” [curmudgeonly people] and “bitterbekke” [cantankerous people]. [Interjections.] [Applause.] But, Chair, despite these achievements in the Western Cape, we still have a lot of challenges in our province. We still have a housing backlog of 400

1. We still have an unemployment rate of 26%. We still have families ravaged by tik. We still have a skills deficit. We still need an overhaul of public transport. Our decline in the agricultural and textile industries has contributed to a deepening of poverty in the province.

There is quite often a lack of interdepartmental integration, but we will sort it out. We know that we in the province must improve our oversight. We know that we have the responsibility to look at officials who are arrogant and are not giving people the service they deserve.

Poverty is a call to action, for the poor and the wealthy alike, a call to change the world so that many more may have enough to eat, adequate shelter, access to education and health, protection from violence, and a voice in what happens in their communities. We need to mobilise our own resources and to attract investment from abroad. We need quality of governance. We will look at fraud, and we will look at corruption. We took the lead in that regard in the Western Cape.

Countries can only compete in the global market if their people, women and men alike, enjoy the benefits of education and the rule of law, with effective state institutions, transparency and accountability in public affairs. It also requires civic participation and that is why we are here, to listen to the people. We who take the decisions must make certain that the decisions we take are implemented.

In the Western Cape we have …

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Order! Can I call upon our technicians to fix our microphones? I am sure, hon members, if the member is audible, that we can be patient and proceed. I don’t think it will be wise to stop until these microphones are repaired. You can continue, hon member.

Mr J P GELDERBLOM (Western Cape): Chairperson, it is for this province …

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Hon member, it is unfortunate that you were left with two seconds. [Laughter.] Your time has expired.

Mr F MAHLALELA (Mpumalanga): Chairperson, Deputy President of the Republic, hon Premier of North West, hon Premiers and special delegates from various provinces, hon Speakers, hon members of the NCOP, delegates from the SA Local Government Association, Salga, ladies and gentlemen, I greet you all.

Well, I did not prepare my speech to deal with the question of Mbombela or to deal with the housing problem, but I will venture into those discussions, as the hon member Watson has tried to do.

However, it is very unfortunate that he has used this platform to distort facts about what is happening in the province, particularly in Mbombela. [Interjections.]

The intervention that we, as provincial government, took in relation to Mbombela was not as a result of a complete collapse of service delivery, as he is trying to make everybody believe; it is very untrue and it is incorrect. I live in Mbombela myself, and he does not. [Interjections.] He is venturing an opinion on an issue that he does not experience on a daily basis.

I work with communities around Mbombela; there has never been a single day where they have complained that there is a complete collapse of service delivery. It is very unfortunate that the hon member comes to this podium and misleads the House.

Regarding the question of collapsing houses, this is not something that has just been discovered by the hon member. It is not something that happened yesterday or last week. It is not something very new that he should come and boast about as if it is his own discovery.

It is a challenge, and, as government, we have identified that, owing to poor workmanship of some of our contractors, some of our houses are in the condition in which they are, and we are attending to that particular matter. So it’s not a matter that is newly discovered.

We are grateful to be part of this debate and to represent the hon Premier of the province, Comrade T S P Makwetla. We feel honoured to be given this opportunity to share our own experiences of our interactions in the struggle against poverty.

Empowerment, as the theme indicates, is a concept as well as a practice that determines our daily activities as government. In order to deal with the challenges of backwardness and underdevelopment that still characterise the majority of our people, we need to come up with very sustainable programmes that empower the masses of our people so that they become their own liberators.

We need continuously to develop empowerment programmes that respond directly to the legacy of our past, which has created the situation of poverty that we are currently dealing with as government. The majority of the masses of our people are exposed daily to the harsh conditions of poverty. This situation makes us realise that, in the spirit of “business unusual”, we need to do extraordinary things in order to realise the objective that we have set ourselves of a better life for all. The historical tragedy of Mpumalanga as a province is that it is a prototype of the impact of apartheid and a glaring example of poverty and disempowerment in the global political economy that is driven by the value system of capitalism.

Today, in Mpumalanga, we still face huge inequality and lack of access to resources that can empower our people. Although the province has, over the many years, reported significant economic growth, the main driver of this economy has been big business, represented mainly by the mining sector.

The investment we have seen coming into the province has mainly benefited those who have always been benefiting. That is, this income has not benefited the ordinary masses of our people.

We all know that Mpumalanga is one of the biggest producers of coal and generators of electricity in the country, but the beneficiation accruing from this economic activity does not reach the ordinary masses of our people.

Our people are finding it difficult to enter mainstream economic activity either through their own business or through gainful employment in the private sector. The structure of the private sector, in terms of high- paying jobs and also in terms of beneficiation, seems to be still reserved for the few minority groups in our province. This, at the end of the day, does not cause wealth to accrue to the ordinary masses. Therefore, the majority of our people are still stuck in the second economy, where they mainly provide ordinary labour.

This situation is further exacerbated by the high rate of illiteracy that the province experiences. This is a result of the legacy of our past, which created a lack of access to education. We also experienced a strong impact of HIV and Aids owing to the economic conditions to which the majority of our people are exposed.

The question that we must therefore ask ourselves is: What is it that we are doing as a province?

We have embarked on various programmes. One of the key programmes we have developed is what we call the “big five”. These are five flagship projects, of which the key project is the Moloto Rail Development Corridor.

We are very pleased that, last week, the national government finally agreed or accepted the Moloto Corridor as one of the key Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative for South Africa, Asgisa, projects. We want to thank you, Deputy President, for pioneering this project of the Moloto Rail Development Corridor. It’s one of the key economic boosters that will empower our people in that region so that they are in a position to realise their own progress.

It is also a booster because the majority of our people find themselves having to commute to Pretoria on a daily basis for work purposes, and, as a result, they are exposed to a lot of dangers on our roads. As we all know, Moloto Road has always been one of our nightmare roads in terms of the number of fatalities that have occurred on it.

So, the development of the rail corridor will then lighten the heavy traffic that currently characterises that particular road. Currently, we have more than 600 buses from this area undertaking single trips into Pretoria in the morning. This creates serious difficulties for our own commuters.

It will also reduce the time that they spend on the road, because they leave for Pretoria as early as 4 o’clock in the morning and come back as late as 10 o’clock in the evening. This means that children are left alone without anybody taking care of them. Some of the parents do not even know their children anymore, because they leave in the morning when the children are still asleep, and come back when they are sleeping already.

So, those are the challenges that this project is going to begin dealing with, gradually. We are currently busy doing economic scoping as part of a process of making sure that as soon as the project is completed, we are in a position to deal with that particular challenge. [Time expired.] Ms K A KGAREBE: Hon Deputy President, Ms Mlambo-Ngcuka; hon Mrs Hollander, Acting Chairperson of the NCOP; hon Mrs Molewa, Premier of North West Province; hon Mrs Thandi Modise, Speaker of North West Province and all protocol observed, I am here to raise issues on poverty alleviation, education and social needs.

The UCDP believes and trusts that ability is what an individual is capable of doing. This idea of minimising poverty by providing people with projects is good and acceptable but people should be thoroughly educated and trained in the projects they have chosen to reinforce interest, confidence and skilful work. Money given out for projects should be monitored through production. Many hands make light work. Elected ward councillors should take the responsibility to supervise and establish functioning projects.

In education, teacher-pupil ratios coupled with school post establishment should be revisited. Educators are carrying a heavy load on their shoulders of learners who have no interest in education and are busy disrupting meaningful teaching in the classroom by talking, refusing to read and write.

Needy people and all the physically challenged should be provided with grants, roads, houses and other capital projects that should be a priority to serve people. The UCDP supports the NCOP’s visit to bring Parliament to the people.

Bagaetsho ke a leboga, ke lebogela gore ke tlile go bua dilo di le pedi fa. Re lela thata ka tiro e ntsi e e neetsweng barutabana, le bana ba e keteng molao o ba letlelela go itaola go ya ka rona re le UCDP. Re ne re kopa mo batsading le mo molaong gore barutabana ba fokolediwe tiro e ntsi ntsi ya go kwala gore ba tle ba kgone go tsepamisa tlhaloganyo mo baneng. Re ne re kopa gore bana le bone ba gagamalediwe molao gore ba tle ba rutege ba nne le bokamoso. Rotlhe re le fa, re tswa mo morutabaneng. A morutabana e nne ena motho wa ntlha yo o tlhofofalediwang tiro.

Se sengwe se re se kopang re le UCDP, ke gore makhanselara a rona a dire tiro botlhofo ka go dira ka na tla go thusa batho ba rona. Ba se ke ba lebelela gore NCOP ke yone e tlaa tlang go fedisa mathata a a mo gare ga batho ba rona. A ba iteke ba dire tiro eo e nne botlhofo fa re tla.

Ke utlwile Mme Mlambo–Ngcuka a re bana ba ba sa tseneng sekolo ba boele sekolong. Re le UCDP re dumelana le ena bagaetsho gore ngwana ke go ya sekolong gore a nne le botshelo jo bosiameng. A rotlhe, batsadi le batho botlhe ba ba fano ba Bokone Bophirima re emeng ka dinao gore bana ba rona e nne bana ba ba tsogang ba na le bokamoso jo bo siameng. Re bua ka thuto le bana gonne ke sona se se tshwenyang mme barutabana ba a sotlega, ba sotlwa ke tiro e tona.

Ke buwa ka maitemogelo, ga ke tlhole ke nwa dipilisi. Ke na le dingwaga di le nne le dikgwedi di le nne ke le fa, ga ke sa tlhole ke nwa dipilisi. Barutabana ba tshela ka dipilisi. Jaaka Mme Mlambo-Ngcuka a le fa, a tsee molaetsa o a o ise kwa go Moporesidente gore barutabana ba bolawa ke tiro e ntsi ya go kwala le bana ba ba sa utlweng. Ke a leboga. [Legofi] (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)

[Thank you, hon members, I appreciate the opportunity I am given to address only two things. Our concern as the UCDP is that teachers are overloaded in their daily school workload and the challenge they face of unruly learners makes it difficult for them to cope. We are appealing to parents and the government that teachers’ responsibility of writing as part of their teaching be minimized to enable them to give learners more attention. We would appreciate it if the law is tightened to help learners to be able to concentrate on their lessons towards a bright future. We are all nurtured by teachers. Hence, I think teachers should be first to be relieved of their workload.

Another issue which the UCDP would like to raise relates to our ward councillors who are supposed to be helpful towards our people. They should not wait for the NCOP to come and identify problems amongst our people. We request them to ease our work for us.

Ms Mlambo-Ngcuka pronounced that kids who are not at school must go back to school. As the UCDP, we support her view that a child must go to school so as to have a bright future. All the people of the North West province must stand up to ensure that our children have a bright future. Education of our children is our priority, hence we are concerned about teachers being overloaded with responsibility, which may demotivate them.

I am talking from experience as I used to face the same challenge for four years which resulted in raising my stress level. To minimise my stress level, I had to continuously take tablets. I suggest that Ms Mlambo-Ngcuka must convey to the President the fact that teachers are killed by writing too much as they teach and because of the unruly learners. Thank you. [Applause.]

Cllr D VAN ROOYEN (Salga): Hon Chairperson, Excellencies, hon Deputy President, Ms Phumzile Mlambo-Ngcuka, hon Ministers, hon Premiers, hon Speakers from our various provincial legislatures, hon MECs, mayors and executive mayors, hon councillors, representatives of various government departments and municipalities, esteemed guests, ladies and gentlemen, bathobetsho dumelang [My fellow people, greetings.]

Let me take this opportunity to commend and express my appreciation for the Deputy President’s address, which in my opinion was precise and very educative. On behalf of the collective leadership of the SA Local Government Association, Salga, I’m indeed honoured to address the joint sitting hosted by the NCOP and the North West province.

As we are all aware, our country has entered into its second decade of freedom with the strengthening of democracy and the acceleration of the programme to improve the quality of life of all our people. We recognise that we are at the beginning of a long journey towards a truly united, democratic and prosperous South Africa in which the value of all citizens is measured by their humanity without regard to race, gender and social status.

I am inspired, of course, by our noble Freedom Charter and the principles enshrined in the Reconstruction and Development Programme. We continue with our social transformation programme informed by the democratic principles of a people-centred and people-driven state, and value systems based on human solidarity. These pillars are attributes of a caring society and beckon us to forge a social compact made up of all races that has, as its central objectives, a social policy, the preservation and development of human resources and ensuring social cohesion.

In his state of the nation address, our President, hon Thabo Mbeki, announced that given the fact that our government is approaching the end of its mandated term, a suite of 24 Apex Priorities have been identified, which the government must focus on to further accelerate progress towards the achievement of the objectives that the people mandated us to pursue. He called on all spheres of government to realise the goal of a better life for all through these priorities. This, I must indicate, include our people in Pomfret, Kgetleng, Makwassie Hill, Sonderwater here in Tlokwe - not the envisaged Sonderwater in the Northern Cape - and other parts of our country.

I must indicate and assure this House that as Salga we are fully committed and would support our government in ensuring that these priorities are fully realised at the end of this mandated term. A key task for all of us is therefore to expand and deepen the relationship between national, provincial and local governments. It is particularly important for local government to visibly become the sphere of government which brings a better quality of life to all our people. The reality of local government today is that people only seem to notice it when it fails to deliver, which is very unfortunate. Salga intends, of course, to change this reality. We must aim at getting our people to talk about how effectively local government is working for them. I am therefore pleased to address this plenary on Parliament empowering communities for poverty eradication.

Experience has shown that community participation is an essential aspect of effective, accountable governance at local level. One important way of achieving successful and lasting models ensuring that community participation takes place is through establishing structures and institutionalised frameworks for participatory local governance. Structured institutionalised models of participation generally work where there is a political commitment to their implementation. The sphere of local government is best placed to give practical meaning and substance to the basic political commitment that we made more than 50 years ago in the form of the Freedom Charter, which states that the people shall govern. It is through the same commitment that we also agreed as people of the country that all people shall be entitled to take part in the administration of the country. It therefore logically follows that as elected public representatives, we are in essence compelled through the very office we hold to foster and maintain good governance underpinned by public participation in every constituency across our country. We are therefore obliged to bring democracy to all corners of our country.

In our local government system, public participation is, amongst others, designed to promote values of good governance and human rights, acknowledge the fundamental rights of all people to participate in the governance system and to narrow the social distance between the electorate and us the elected leaders. In a number of our areas, through the establishment of ward committees, public participation has become a reality. Ward committees, I must indicate to the House, when fully functional, have become vehicles for enhancing participatory democracy in local government. In order for communities to be active and involved in managing their development, claiming their rights and exercising their responsibilities, ward committees, as legitimate structures, need to be effective, and as leaders we have an obligation to ensure that this does materialise. As elected public representatives, we are the closest link between government at large and our local communities. Each and every municipal councillor is accountable to the people and compelled to perform the functions of office in good faith, honesty and in a transparent manner. In addition, the code of good conduct, which is attached as Schedule One to the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act, governs our behaviour. We are obliged, as mayors, executive mayors and elected leaders of our respective communities, to act at all times in the interest of the municipality in such a way that the credibility and integrity of the municipality are not compromised.

I want to urge each and every one of us to again carefully study the provisions of the code of conduct for councillors. It is also important that all three spheres of government work together to ensure that every district and metro municipality is properly positioned to discharge their responsibilities to our people. As I wish you well, without telling a lie and claiming an easy victory, we are committed as Salga to ensuring that we build these municipalities. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Ms N F MAZIBUKO: Sihlalo, ngibingelela iNdlu nani nonke ngokushiyana ngokwezihlalo zenu, ikakhulukazi iSekela likaM ongameli. NgesiNgisi baye bathi … [Chairperson, I greet the House and all of you in your different portfolios, especially the Deputy President. In English they say …]

… all protocol observed.

Ngibingelela umphakathi wase-Potchefstroom. Malibongwe! Hola bangani, Hola! Hola Seveni, Hola! Heita da! Bathi ngesiSuthu … [I greet the community of Potchefstroom. Malibongwe! Hello, friends, Hello! Hola Seven, Hola! Hello there! In Sesotho they say …]

Moja morago, ke kgosi. [He who laughs last, laughs best.]

NgesiZulu bathi isinamuva liyabukwa. [There is an expression in isiZulu which says that he who laughs last, laugh best.]

There is a saying that in English could be translated as follows: “When the car is standing still, the dogs urinate on it but when it is moving, the dogs bark at it.”

Uma ngiyichaza ngesintu ngithi uma imoto imile izinja ziyayichamela, uma ihamba ziyayikhonkotha. Yilokho esikuzwile namhlanje ngesikhathi ikakhulukazi lama qenjana amancane … (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[If I translate this in a Nguni language, I would say that means that when a car is standing still, the dogs urinate on it but when it is moving, the dogs bark at it. And that is exactly what we heard today about the time factor, especially from the smaller parties …] … bo mabinwa go tsholwa. [… those who don’t get involved but like to bask in the success of others.]

IPhalamende njengoba livakashele lapha esifundazweni saseNyakatho- Ntshonalanga, ngethemba ukuthi izakhamuzi zase-Potchefstroom kanye nomakhelwane bayo le ndawo baye bakuthokozela ukuza kwethu lapha ngoba baye bakwazi ukukhipha yonke intukuthelo nemibono yabo nakho konke abakucabangayo ngezinsizakalo abazitholayo.

Omunye ubaba uze wathi yena uyithanda kakhulu inqubo yentando yeningi yethu ngoba uyakwazi ukuma lapha akhulume nePhalamende noma emavukuvuku kanje. Amazwi anjengalawo asikhuthazayo akhombisa ukuthi ngempela senza umsebenzi omuhle. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[As Parliament has come here in the North West province, I hope that the communities of Potchefstroom and those of the surrounding areas are grateful for our visit. This is so because the people were able to vent their anger, voice their opinions and all their thoughts concerning the services that they receive.

A certain gentleman even said that he likes our democracy very much because he can stand here and talk to Parliament despite his shabbiness. It is such words which encourage us to say that, indeed, we are doing good work.]

[Interjections.]

Mr A WATSON: Thanks, Madam Chair. I rise on a point of order to ask that you rule on whether it is parliamentary for a Member of Parliament in this House to use the word ‘chamela’. [Laughter.]

The ACTING CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Hon member! Order! Order!

Ms N F MAZIBUKO: Acting Chairperson …

The ACTING CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Hon member, will you please withdraw your word. Will you explain? I will give the hon member a chance to explain what she said. Thank you.

Ms N F MAZIBUKO: Sihlalo, uma uchaza izinto ngesiZulu akulula ukuthi uzichaze ngesiNgisi. Isisho sesiZulu lesi. [Chairperson, when you explain things in isiZulu, it is not easy to explain them in English. This is an isiZulu expression.]

Ms N F MAZIBUKO: Balla ka mathata a bona. E mong o ne a raharaha ka pele ho rona mona, ke nahana hore kaofela re mmone. Ntho ena e bakwa ke hore batho ba hloka thuso, ba ya dikantorong tsa mmuso empa ha ba thole thuso. Ha ba kokota monyako ona, ba bontshwa menyako e meng. (Translation of Sesotho paragraph follows.)

[Ms N F MAZIBUKO: They are complaining about their problems. The other one was fuming in our presence; I think we all witnessed that. The cause of this thing is the fact that people need help, but when they go to government offices they do not get any help. When they knock on this door, they are moved from pillar to post.]

… they are moved from pillar to post. I will ask: Where is Batho Pele and where is the service pledge when our people are still suffering almost 14 years into democracy?

The ACTING CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Thank you, hon member.

Mr A WATSON: Madam Chair, the explanation that you asked for was not given. I asked you to rule on a rude word that I find not to be in keeping with … [Interjections.] [Laughter.]

The ACTING CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Order! Thank you! Order, members! I’m sorry that the microphones were not working. Hon Watson, will you please behave yourself. Hon Watson, I will give the explanation. Thank you. The explanation is in isiXhosa and I will translate it in English. It says if people are saying something about you, it means you are not succeeding or you are succeeding, one of the two. I’m sorry, member, that I asked you to withdraw it but you may continue. I apologise.

Nk N F MAZIBUKO: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo. Ngizoqhubeka nenkulumo yami. Ngethemba ukuthi nesikhathi lesi eseningidlele sona sizobuyekezwa. Sinezinhlelo eziningi zikahulumeni.

Mina ngiyilungu likaKhongolose futhi kuKhongolose kunemithetho ebekiwe lena esiyibiza ngokuthi nge-code of conduct kanye nendlela yokuziphatha lena esiyibiza nge-discipline. Zonke izinto ebezikhulunywa lapha amalungu omphakathi ekhononda ngempatho yamalungu kaKhongolose kuyadumaza. UMthetho 26 woMthethosisekelo we-ANC uthi – ngizowusho ngesiNgisi… (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Ms N F MAZIBUKO: Thank you, Chairperson. I will continue with my speech. I hope that you will also review my time which you have already wasted. We have many government programmes.

I am a member of the ANC and in the ANC we have codes of conduct and discipline. Everything which was said by the members of the public here, complaining about the behaviour of the members of the ANC, is depressing. Rule 26 of the constitution of the ANC states that – and I will say it in English …]

All members, without exception, must abide by the Constitution of the ANC, Rules, the Standing Orders and Code of Conduct as adopted or amended from time to time.

Incwadi yokubika amasu nezinhloso zikaKhongolose ebizwa nge-Manifesto yonyaka ka-2006 ithi ngaphansi kwesihloko esithi “Duty to respect and serve the people”, ithi i-ANC… (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[The Manifesto of 2006, which is the booklet which has the aims and objectives of the ANC, under the heading “Duty to respect and serve the people”, states that: the ANC …]

… has a Code of Conduct even for Councillors.

Ubesekhulumile umlingani wami ovela kwa-Salga ukuthi amakhansela kaKhongolose … [My colleague from Salga has already spoken, and he said that ANC councillors …]

… take an oath. They stand and say they solemnly declare that, as the councillors of the ANC, they place their energies and skills at the disposal of the community and they will carry out the task. They will fight corruption in any guise or form and they will live in the community that elected them. They will do their best to build and develop the community.

Nathi malungu ePhalamende siyafunga sithi sizowuhlonipha uMthethosisekelo wezwe, sihloniphe amalungelo abantu, siqiniseke ukuthi izimpilo zabantu zibe ngcono, njl. Ngithanda-ke ukuphonsa inselelo – ngesiSuthu bathi … (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[We also, as Members of Parliament, take an oath pledging that we will respect the Constitution of the country, the people’s rights, and make sure that people’s lives are improved, etc. I would then like to pose a challenge here – in Sesotho they say …]

… Ke phephetso … [… It’s a challenge …]

… kithi sonke malungu yokuthi ngabe siyakuthobela lokhu na. Omunye wezakhamuzi ngesikhathi ekhuluma lapha esidlangalaleni uthe ilungu likaKhongolose liye lathi kuye uma engathobeli umthetho kuzobhekwana naye. Uzozithola edla emgqonyeni kadoti. Uyasho-ke nangempela ukuthi uyabona izinto zakhe azimhambeli kahle.

Ngabe into elungileyo leyo uma singamalungu kaKhongolose? Ngibhekise kumalungu omphakathi lawo angamalungu e-ANC. Ngithi kini uMthetho 4.1 womthethosisekelo we-ANC uthi ubulungu buvulelwe wonke umuntu ongaphezu kweminyaka eyi-18 yokuzalwa, ngale, kobuhlanga, ibala nezinto okholelwa kuzo. Uphinde uthi … (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[… and to all of us here as members, we need to see whether we respect it. One of the community members here, when he was talking at the podium, said that a certain member of the ANC said to him if he does not abide by the rules, he will face the consequences for that. He would find himself eating from the dustbin. And this person says that his affairs are not going well.

Is that the correct thing that we need to do as members of the ANC? I am directing this question to the members of the public who are members of the ANC. I am saying to you that Rule 4.1 of the constitution of the ANC states that membership is open to everybody who is above the age of 18 irrespective of race, colour or creed. It also states that …]

… for those who accept the principles and policies and programmes and are prepared to abide by the constitution and rules,

Uphinde-ke uMthetho 4.6 uthi ikhadi lobulungu buka-ANC… [Rule 4.6 also states that the ANC membership card …]

… shall be issued to registered members of the ANC and to persons whose application for membership has been accepted, subject to review as aforesaid, and in all cases, subject to payment of the prescribed subscription …

UMthetho 4.15 womthethosisekelo we-ANC uthi uma wemukelwa kuKhongolose uye ufunge uthi … [Rule 4.15 of the constitution of the ANC states that when you are accepted in the ANC as a member you need to take an oath and say …] I, ……………, solemnly declare that I will abide by the aims and objectives of the African National Congress as set out in the Constitution, the Freedom Charter and other duly adopted policy positions, that I am joining the organization voluntarily and without motives of material advantage or personal gain, that I agree to respect the Constitution and the structures and to work as a loyal member of the organisation, that I will place my energies and skills at the disposal of the organisation and carry out tasks given to me, that I will work towards making the ANC an even more effective instrument of liberation in the hands of the people, and that I will defend the unity and integrity of the organisation and its principles, and combat any tendency towards disruption and factionalism.

Akukho lapha kule migomo lapho kuthiwa khona uma ngabe uthatha ubulungu buka-ANC, uzothola indlu noma umsebenzi nalokhu okubizwa ngokuthi ama- privileges. Bengicela thina-ke malungu omphakathi ukuthi uma ngabe kuthiwa asijoyine inhlangano, asiqaphelisise kahle ukuthi ayikho into embi uma sithatha ubulungu bethu.

Ngithanda futhi ukukhuthaza amalungu omphakathi ukuthi masimpimpe abantu abenza ukukhohlakala emiphakathini yethu. Ngaleziya zikhathi zobandlulo kwakukhona izimpimpi. Azibuye futhi lezo zimpimpi. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[None of these principles state that when you take up the membership of the ANC, you will receive a house, a job and certain privileges. I therefore request all of us here as members of the community that if we are urged to join this movement, we need to realise that there is nothing wrong with that – that is of taking up our membership.

I would also like to encourage the community members to blow the whistle on people who do corruption in our communities. There were whistle-blowers during apartheid times. Let those whistle-blowers come back.]

You must blow the whistle and name and shame anyone who does corruption.

Motlatsa Mopresidente le ditho, mona Afrika Borwa re na le dilemo tse 14, empa tokoloho ho ba bang mona Portchefstroom le dibaka tse mabapi ha e bonahale. Bongata bo sa ntsaneng bo hatelletswe ke maburu le ba basweu. Re entse melao e lwantshanang le kgatello bathong. Re na le Molao wa Tekatekano - Equality Act ha mmoho le Molaotheo - Constitution, Karolo 2 ya Ditokelo tsa Botho e bolela hore ditokelo tsa batho bohle di tlameha ho hlomphuwa.

Ho hlokeha hore batho ba tsebe ka dintho tsena. Ka sekgowa ba re: “Information is power”. Ha o se na tlhahiso leseding menyako ya hao e mengata e ka se bulehe. Ba bangata hara lona mona ba ne ba re: “ANC e re tshepisitse nthwena le thwane, ebile ANC e tla mona hobane e se e itokisetsa dikgetho”. Ha ho jwalo, re tla mona hobane re kgathatsehile ke tsela eo le phelang ka yona, mme re etsa bonnete ba hore le lona le kgone ho bona tokoloho eo re e thotseng kaofela mona Afrika Borwa. Re na le “constituency offices”, ke kopa hore le di sebedise.

Motlatsa mopresidente o buile ka Asgisa – Accelerated Shared Growth Initiative for South Africa le Gipsa – Joint Initiative on Priority Skills Acquisition, ke nahana hore le mo utlwile hantle ha a ne a re re tlameha ho kgutlela dikolong hobane thuto ke lesedi, ha o sa ruteha o tla ja manina a dithaka tsa hao. Re ile ra etela sekolo sa Terror Pekana School hona haufi mona, sekolo se na se hauwe ka 1945, empa matlwana a sona a hauwe ka 2006, le kajeno lena matlwana ao ha so sebetse. Re entse melao e reng bana ba tshwanetse ba fumane dijo sekolong, sekolong seo teng bana ba ja matsatsi a mabedi bekeng, ka matsatsi a mang Mosuwehloho wa teng Mofumadi Maroga o tlameha ho ipha nako ya ho pheha lelapeng la hae hore bana ba kgone ho ja. (Translation of Sesotho paragraphs follows.)

[The Deputy President and members, here in South Africa we have had 14 years of democracy, but here in Potchefstroom and the surrounding areas, we don’t see freedom. Many people are oppressed by the Boers and white people. We drafted laws which are against oppression of people. We have the Equality Act as well as the Constitution; Section 2 of the Bill of Rights stipulates that all human rights should be respected. There is a need for people to know about these things. In English they say: “Information is power”. If you don’t have information, most of the doors will be closed to you. The majority of you here were saying: “The ANC has promised us this and that, and the ANC is only coming here because it’s preparing itself for the elections“. It’s not like that; we are coming here because we are concerned about the way in which you live here; and we are making sure that you see the freedom that we all received in South Africa. We have “constituency offices”; we urge you to use them.

The Deputy President talked about Asgisa, the Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative for South Africa and Jipsa, the Joint Initiative for Priority Skills Acquisition. I think you all heard her clearly when she emphasised that we should go back to school because education is light, and when you are uneducated you’ll find yourself working for your friends and eating their leftovers. We visited a school nearer here, Terra Peccana School. This school was built in 1945, but its toilets were built in 2006 and yet those toilets have not been used until this day. We drafted laws that stipulate that children should be fed at school. At that particular school, children are only fed twice a week. Sometimes the principal, Mrs Maroga, has to sacrifice time to go and cook at her place in order for these children to get food.]

I only hope, Premier Edna Molewa, that there won’t be any money that will be rolled back to the Treasury, otherwise heads must roll. Xosha abantu abangenzi umsebenzi wabo. [Ihlombe.] I-Freedom Charter ithi … [Get rid of people who are not doing their work. [Applause.] The Freedom Charter says that …]

“the doors of learning and teaching shall be opened to all.”

Ngethemba ukuthi zonke lezi zingane nezifunda ezikoleni zasemapulazini nazo zizoyibona inqubekela phambili. Uh ulumeni wethu unikezela ngomfaniswano wezikole. Ngicela zonke izingane zihambe ziyofaka izicelo zomfaniswano.

Komama ngithi sinezinhlangano ngakho ngicela nizibhalise ukuze nikwazi ukucaphuna kulezi zinhlangano. Kukhona umama lapha othe uneminyaka eyishumi engasebenzi kodwa unabantwana okufanele abondle. Mama bengicela ukuthi usukume nawe. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[I hope that all these children and those who attend farm schools will also see progress. Our government distributes school uniforms. I request all the pupils to forward their applications for the uniforms.

To women, I am saying that we have structures, and therefore, I would ask you to be registered in these structures so that you can benefit from them. There is a lady here who said that she has been unemployed for the past 10 years and she has children whom she needs to feed. To that lady, I say this is her turn to stand up and be counted.]

Bare mme o tshwara thipa ka bohaleng, tsamaya o ingodise, o bule mokgatlo wa thusano (Co-operation) le wena o kgone ho fepa bana ba hao. Ke a tseba hore mme ha a fuwa R5,00 o reka ditapole le eie a je le bana ba hae, empa bontate bona ha ba fuwa R5,00 … (Translation of Sesotho paragraph follows.)

[They say a mother holds the sharp end of a knife, so go out there and register, start a project for assistance, so that you are able to feed your children. I know that when a woman is given R5,00, she buys potatoes and onions in order to have a meal together with her children, but when men are given that R5,00 …]

… baya kamama uyangichaza. Baphuza lapho. [… they go to the shebeens. And that is where they drink.]

The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms P M Hollander): Order!

Ms N F MAZIBUKO: The Freedom Charter, under clause 3, says: “The people shall share in the country’s wealth”.

Sihlalo, kunosozimayini abancane ngapha ngaseMakwasssie. Uma ngabe bethi bayangena eduze kwalapho kulahlwa khona udoti wakwa-De Beers bayofuna okokuziphilisa, u-De Beers ubatshela ukuthi indawo yakhe. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Chairperson, there are small miners in the place called Makwassie and when they go near the dumping site where De Beers’ waste products are discarded, with the aim of looking for something to make a living with, De Beers says that the land belongs to it.]

… and yet the very same De Beers is dumping on land that belongs to the local municipality. You wonder if they pay rent for that land.

Ngiyabonga, Sihlalo. [Thank you, Chairperson.] [Time expired.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Acting Chairperson, hon Premiers, MECs, mayors, councillors, honoured guests, the residents of Tlokwe and the surrounding areas, I would like to start off by wishing the Chairperson of the NCOP a speedy recovery. I also want to thank the Speaker of the North West for spending time with us; I know that she has too many things to do – she is like Sdumo - we highly appreciate that she could be here with us. Malibongwe! [Praise!]

HON MEMBERS: Igama lamakhosikazi! [Praise be the name of women!]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I want to start off by thanking all of you, hon members, for being here and for raising the issues sharply in the manner in which you raised them. I want to thank the members of the community, not only because they are here today but …

… hobane le ne le le teng beke kaofela le ntse le bua le Ditho tsa Palamente ka dintho tse bohlokwa. Ke dumela haholo hore … [… because you were present for the whole week discussing important matters with the Members of Parliament. I strongly believe that …]

I thank you very much because you said things the way you want us to understand them and, from what I heard, you did not pull any punches. We are obviously not walking on eggshells here.

Asizanga apha ukuze siphathelwe phezulu njengamaqanda, ukuze singaqhekeki. Abantu mabasixelele le nto bafuna ukusixelela yona. Ngexa sasingena kolu gqatso, sasisazi ukuba asizanga apha ukuze size kuphathelwa phezulu, koko size kusebenzela abantu, … [Kwaqhwatywa] (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[We did not come here to be handled like eggs, so that we should not break. People must tell us what they want to tell us. When we entered the race, we knew we did not come here to be given five-star treatment, but we have come here to work for the people … ] [Applause.]

Having said that, our biggest challenge …

… uma sihamba lapha, ukuthi sibuye nezimpendulo. Abantu abangakhulumi, bakhulume … [… when we leave here, is that we must come back with answers. People who have not spoken should speak …]

… and then …

… re tsamaile maloba … [… we left the day before yesterday …]

… and we never come back with answers and solutions. Our biggest challenge, whether we are here as representatives of municipalities, councils, or provinces, is that we go back in order to bring answers. We remain accountable to the people who brought us here.

Mr Watson, we need you to be a partner because, in a forum of this nature we cannot disintegrate into a populist contest. These people see us as this collective and not just as representatives of contending parties but as hon members who are here visiting them so that together we can work with them in order to address their needs. That is what we must remember. [Applause.]

We can do our hectic stuff in Cape Town, but when we are here among communities… … bathong, isimilo phambili, wa tseba [… people, respect comes first, you know.]

By the time we leave here, we must have given people as much time as possible and not make the work of the Chairperson to be that of continuously asking us to either restrain ourselves or to be in order; we don’t have that luxury when we have come such a long way. Of course, this also applies to members of my party and everybody that we have a responsibility towards to maintain decorum.

We have come here; I want to emphasise the theme that we are promoting here, because we want Parliament to empower communities to fight poverty. The essential message here is that we have not come here to give people a fish. We are saying that the communities must be taught how to fish for themselves. Empower the communities so that they can fight poverty.

We are not here to fight poverty for them; though we are paid, and very well, to make sure that we give the tools to the communities. When we deny people the tools to fight poverty, we are committing a crime. When communities go to our centres, police stations, clinics, social workers, etc and we fail to deal with their problems whether they need information or services, and we treat them as if we are doing them a favour, we are taking away even the fishing rod with which they can fish for themselves.

We also need to do some introspection, find out what wrongs we are doing that perpetuate the conditions of impoverishment in our society and be brutally frank to ourselves as to where we have shortcomings.

I want to emphasise the fact that in the fight against poverty – I would like hon members to take this home with them – we have done a lot to relieve poverty. What we want to take back with us is to reverse the situation, because it is possible, if the people are still young and still children and not adults, that poverty can still be reversed. There is no reason why a child should be sentenced to a lifetime of poverty.

Now, what are these interventions that reverse poverty and therefore eradicate it? One of the most reliable ones is education, but teen pregnancy, for instance, does indeed sentence our children to a life of poverty. Abuse of drugs and alcohol are some of the things that sentence children to poverty, so we need to intervene so that, as we understand the fight against poverty, we need to say: Kufaneke uthi: Angikakaqedi ngawe wena mntwana! [You must say: I am not through with you, child!]

As long as you are not sure that you have defeated all these ills that put you on a path to poverty, we have not reversed that poverty. We must prevent poverty where it is still possible that we can prevent it – things such as feeding schemes, bathong! [my goodness.]

When children are malnourished …

… izinqondo zabo ziyakhathala ngoba basuke belambile bese ingakwazi ukusebenza lokho okudala ukuthi umntwana angaphumeli esikoleni. [… their brains get tired, because they would be hungry and thus cannot grasp whatever is taught at school and, as a result, they fail.]

So, those people who are stealing food that is meant for children are abusing the feeding scheme and they are contributing towards chronic poverty of children and then it is irreversible. In that way, you are sentencing those children to a life of underdevelopment and stunted development. So, our challenge in education is quality education, keeping them at school and nourishing them with the food that is supplied by government to children. We have to fight all those things, such as abuse, security issues and everything else. These are critical elements of the fight against poverty. In the end, we are talking about reducing the number of poor households. We must say, Madam Premier, in the households where we are intervening, the grant is not enough – we should not fool ourselves – it is not enough to eradicate, to reverse, to prevent and to break the cycle of poverty.

So, what are other things that must go with this income transfer that the grant represents. Kuba le yintwanyana nje yokunqand’ iphango [It is just a little something to keep one going, but it’s not enough].

In every family – if I am repeating myself, …

… kungokuba neBhayibhile siyifunda njalo, siphinda-phinda izahluko ezinye [it is because even when we read the Bible, we read the same Chapters over and over again].

– in all the families, identify a turnaround strategy that, in this family, this is the person who is going to turnaround the fortunes of this family. Let us create support and systems around the turnaround person so that, in every family we personally screen and in the households that are poor, we can say that, in household 1, uThemba is the turnaround strategy.

Uyafunda,uyasebenza, ngoko uza kukwazi ukuba ajonge uDudu noTshepo, njalo njalo. [He is studying or working; therefore, he will be able to look after Dudu and Tshepo, etc.]

This will mean that the future generation in that family will never be poor. The poverty alleviation is labour-intensive. It is so detailed that it cannot just be a broad brush. We need details. However, we will never succeed if the families themselves are not taking responsibility. We are here to empower the communities so that they fight their own poverty.

The task is that in the streets we should work together with our ward councillors and our community development workers.

Mabazigcine ezincwadini zabo iinkcukacha zokuba ngokubhekisele kusapho oluthile, ukungondleki kumi ngolu hlobo ngoku; ubani akasahambi sikolo; umntwana osebenza njengomncedi woluntu, “iCommunity development Worker”, aphambane aye esikolweni aye kujonga ukuba … (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[They have to keep, in their books, details of the extent of poverty in each family; a particular learner who no longer goes to school; a youth who helps the community. A community development worker should immediately go to the school to find out …]

… why it is that this child has not been to school. Take that kid, work with the people in the community and that child must go back to school.

In the past …

… sasingafuni ukuba abantwana bathi ngexesha lesikolo bahambe ezitalatweni benxibe iyunifomu yesikolo. [… we did not want learners, during school hours, to roam the streets wearing the uniform of the school.]

We cannot allow such things to happen.

As you see …

umntwana wesikolo ezihambela edolophini ngexesha lesikolo, ubokwazi ukuba, nantso ke intlupheko izihambela!

Ngoko ke ndiyanicela, … (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[when you see a learner walking about town in school uniform, you should know that there goes poverty! That one has just been sentenced to being poor.

Therefore, I plead …]

That is what we must do: eradicate, reverse and prevent. The relief must just be a cherry on top. It is only for the old people because you cannot change their circumstances, and for the severely disabled people because they do need to depend on somebody.

I also think that we are rethinking the issue of children who have young able-bodied parents. The issue is about making the parent to become the breadwinner, not the parent to be a dependant of a child because of the grant. We have to turn around that scenario so that young parents can take responsibility for looking after their children. So, these are some of the policy questions and challenges that still face us.

I want to thank all the provinces because we visited all of them as the Presidency as part of interactive monitoring. These are some of the things that we picked up and identified, and the work that many of you have continued to do in that regard. Some of the work that has now emerged as Apex Projects was also informed by those visits.

I just want to highlight some of the Apex Priorities - not all 24 - but some are more critical ones. Of course, all of them are critical. The resources of the poorer schools is a critical priority. There is the intervention in the second economy which includes our increasing, significantly Expanded Public Works Programme, jobs for growth and co- operatives for women, and the provision of microfinance. Government has now provided generous resources in relation to microfinance. You should invite Deputy Minister Thabethe to your provinces because …

… unento ayiphetheyo … [she has got an ace up her sleeve …]

… o na le mokotlana. [… she is carrying a bag.]

… aza kunixelela ngayo … [… which she will tell you about …]

… of different funds that are there, and she has worked very hard as well, in agriculture, for them to develop those funds as well as funds for the youth.

The National Youth Service and youth development in general is an Apex Priority as are the fight against communicable diseases, issues of social cohesion, and energy security and savings.

I just want to highlight some issues. You probably have heard Eskom saying that, when it comes to households and commercial institutions as against industries and manufacturers such as mines, smelters and so on, commercial companies have not done enough - and households - to reduce the use of electricity. So, we need to continuously ask you, when you practise energy efficiency, at a household level …

… cishani amagiza ekuseni … [… to switch off geysers early in the morning …]

… because in your house about 40% of the money …

… oyisebenzisela ukuhlawulela umbane, ivela kumbane owusebenzise kwigiza

• amanzi atshisayo ongawasebenzisiyo. Ngaba lukhona usapho oluthi lusebenzise onke amanzi egiza? Ngoko niwabiliselani la manzi? (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.) [… you earn to pay for electricity comes from the energy you used in your geyser – hot water you do not use. Is there a family that uses all the water in the geyser? Therefore, why do you boil the water?] So, please switch off your geysers when you leave for work and switch them on when you come back.

I am asking you provinces and municipalities – I am surprised at the number of street lights that are on. When you travel from Johannesburg, MEC Cachalia, from Pretoria to Johannesburg …

… zonke ezaa nkampani zishiya izibane zikhanyisiwe ebusuku. Abanini beenkampani endibaziyo ndiyabafowunela ndithi kubo, “Inkampani yakho ishiywe izibane zikhanyisiwe”. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[… all those companies leave their lights on at night. I phone owners of companies that I know and say to them: “Your company has left its lights on”.]

That is a lot of wasted electricity. We don’t have to switch off all the street lights but you can switch off some of them. You don’t have to switch off all the street lights. So, there are lots of basic things that we can actually do, which we were supposed to have done long ago, but there has always been resistance to energy saving in South Africa. I think we have now all realised why we have always been shouting about saving energy. Of course, the use of heat in the house for cooking needs to be considered because cooking use is another energy waster. It is better to invest in a microwave so that …

… uma ufudumeza, ungafudumezi ngaleli puleti eliwugqinsi. Uyalibona leli puleti elinqugqinsi…? [… when you warm food, do not warm food using the thick plate. Do you see the thick plate …?]

So, we have to change our lifestyles in our homes so that we economise. We need to switch off air conditioners in offices …

… enisigodolisayo kushushu.[… you make us feel cold when it’s hot.]

It’s a lot of energy that is being wasted because air conditioners are energy guzzlers. Now, if we are all very vigilant about those things, we will get the 10%. You can work out what is 10%, “mahlalela.” [loafer.]

Yintoni thina silolu sapho esiza kuyenza ukucutha umthamo wombane esiwusebenzisayo ngeshumi ekhulwini? Liyintoni ishumi ekhulwini lwale dolophu? Liyintoni ishumi ekhulwini lweli phondo? njalo njalo … (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[What is it that we can do, as a family, to reduce energy use by 10%? What is 10% of 100% of this town? What is 10% of 100% in this province … etc?]

… so that we can make sure that we don’t take away energy from mines and those kinds of institutions whose reduction of energy has implications for jobs.

Uma kumnyama endlini yakho, ungakhali ngoba awulahlekelwa msebenzi. Lala. [Uhleko.] Lala, uqhubeke nokunye. [When it’s dark in your house, you shouldn’t say you are not losing a job. Sleep. [Laughter.] Sleep, and continue with something else.]

Another critical Apex programme, of course, is the anticrime activities. We are all very concerned about that aspect. We need you to participate in assisting the police to do their work and we also need to challenge the police when and if they are not doing their work. We need to increase the security in our communities.

Another Apex Priority is land reform and the productive use of land, access to civic services such as identity documents, birth certificates; all of those are also part of the 24 Apex Priorities. Now, these are the things that we can do.

The term of this government is going to end and, when it comes to an end, these are some of the things that we can wind up and hand over at a platform. This will enable the new team to come up running to get going. These are the things that we can do. We have a lot of building blocks so it should be possible for us to do all of the things that we have chosen as Apex Priorities. It is because the capacity for them to be concluded effectively does exist between and amongst ourselves, especially if you adopt a business as usual stance. Business as usual means that you don’t have to leave work at 4:00 o’clock. In fact, it is unheard of a public service …

… osebenza ngewotshi; uhamba xa umsebenzi uphelile.[… who works through on his or her watch; you leave when your work is done.]

Secondly, we have to make sure that when we adopt a business unusual approach, it does mean that we also mobilise other people to work with us. I am just saying that, as we implement these 24 Apex programmes, we can only do that if we work with other people and work as a collective.

Again, I do want to compliment the provinces for the progress and the co- operation we have enjoyed with them on some of the critical provincial Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative for South Africa, Asgisa, projects.

The MEC highlighted in Mpumalanga, Moloto, that we are making progress there and …

… uma sithatha okubizwa nge-business unusual, okusho ukwenza umsebenzi ngokungejwayelekile, nginesiqiniseko sokutho sizoyishaya. Kuyothi kufika ukhetho siyobe sesihamba sigijima laphaya kule Miloto. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[… when we take what is called a ‘business unusual’, approach meaning doing work in an unusual manner, I am certain that we shall conquer. When the election period descends upon us, we will have been running, there, at Moloto.]

Excellent progress is being made at the Dube Trade Port in KwaZulu-Natal. The State Diamond Trader in the Northern Cape has worked very well with national government and it is making progress also on the beneficiation initiatives. There are a number of provinces that are involved in biofuels

• thank you for the excellent inputs and contributions that you have made - the strategy is completed; the specifications are in place; the regulations are being finalised and, very soon, we should be able to take the next step.

Those provinces that committed themselves to Asgisa to improve especially transport infrastructure and to work on some of the 2010 related programmes, most of you have made excellent progress. Again, I would like to thank you for that.

Again, in Limpopo, we are also making progress with the De Hoop Dam. However, I want to say that I will be doing provincial visits just to focus on the 2010 infrastructure to make sure that the infrastructure that leads to the stadium is also taken care of so that we have a functioning stadium, the road to the stadium, and so on. Also, the road to the stadium should not be a road that only leads to the stadium but is also networked with the other transport infrastructure for your town as well as your provinces. So, I always look forward to those visits also because the catering is quite nice. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The ACTING CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): We thank the Deputy President of the Republic of South Africa for her input and her presence here with us today. Thank you, Deputy President, once more.

There are two household notices: The first is that I would like to thank the community for participating with us during this whole week and who made this visit a success. Then, to the hon members, your transport will be ready for you as planned, and I think you have been informed about it.

Hon members, while the procession leaves we would like you to remain seated.

The Council adjourned at 13:16. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

                       THURSDAY, 6 MARCH 2008

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Introduction of Bills

 (1)    The Minister of Defence


      a) Defence Amendment Bill [B  6  –  2008]  (National  Assembly  –
         proposed sec 75) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior notice
         of its introduction published in Government Gazette  No  30803
         of 22 February 2008.]


         Introduction  and  referral  to  the  Portfolio  Committee  on
         Defence of the National Assembly, as well as referral  to  the
         Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in  terms  of
         Joint Rule 160.


         In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification
         of  the  Bill  may  be  submitted  to  the  JTM  within  three
         parliamentary working days.

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Health

 a) Strategic Plan of the Department of Health for 2008/09 to 2010/11.

                        FRIDAY, 7 MARCH 2008

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Draft Bills submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159

   1) Prevention of Illegal Eviction from and Unlawful Occupation of Land Amendment Bill, 2008, submitted by the Minister of Housing. Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Housing and the Select Committee on Public Services.

2. Introduction of Bills

 (1)    The Minister of Health


      a) Tobacco  Products  Amendment  Bill  [B  7  –  2008]  (National
         Assembly – proposed sec 76) [Explanatory summary of  Bill  and
         prior notice  of  its  introduction  published  in  Government
         Gazette No 30824 of 29 February 2008.]


         Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on Health
         of the National Assembly, as well as  referral  to  the  Joint
         Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms  of  Joint
         Rule 160.


         In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification
         of  the  Bill  may  be  submitted  to  the  JTM  within  three
         parliamentary working days.


 (2)    The Minister of Housing


      a) Prevention of Illegal Eviction From and Unlawful Occupation of
         Land Amendment Bill [B 8 – 2008] (National Assembly – proposed
         sec 75) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior notice  of  its
         introduction published in Government Gazette No  30458  of  16
         November 2007.]
         Introduction  and  referral  to  the  Portfolio  Committee  on
         Housing of the National Assembly, as well as referral  to  the
         Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in  terms  of
         Joint Rule 160.


         In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification
         of  the  Bill  may  be  submitted  to  the  JTM  within  three
         parliamentary working days.


 (3)    The Minister of Defence


      a) Castle Management Act Repeal  Bill  [B  9  –  2008]  (National
         Assembly – proposed sec 75) [Explanatory summary of  Bill  and
         prior notice  of  its  introduction  published  in  Government
         Gazette No 30803 of 22 February 2008.]


         Introduction  and  referral  to  the  Portfolio  Committee  on
         Defence of the National Assembly, as well as referral  to  the
         Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in  terms  of
         Joint Rule 160.


         In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification
         of  the  Bill  may  be  submitted  to  the  JTM  within  three
         parliamentary working days.


 (4)    The Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development
      a) Reform of  Customary  Law  of  Succession  and  Regulation  of
         Related Matters Bill  [B  10  –  2008]  (National  Assembly  –
         proposed sec 76) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior notice
         of its introduction published in Government Gazette  No  30815
         of 25 February 2008.]


         Introduction  and  referral  to  the  Portfolio  Committee  on
         Justice  and  Constitutional  Development  of   the   National
         Assembly, as well as referral to the Joint  Tagging  Mechanism
         (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint Rule 160.


         In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification
         of  the  Bill  may  be  submitted  to  the  JTM  within  three
         parliamentary working days.

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson

 (a)    Report of the Auditor-General on  a  performance  audit  of  the
    provision of sanitation services at the Department of Water Affairs
    and Forestry [RP 11-2008].

 b) Report of the Auditor-General  on  a  performance  audit  of  grant
    management at the National Lotteries Board [RP 12-2008].

                        MONDAY, 10 MARCH 2008

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Foreign Affairs

   (a) Strategic Plan of the Department of Foreign Affairs for 2008- 2011.

                      TUESDAY, 11 MARCH 2008
   

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs

a) Strategic Plan of the National Agricultural  Marketing  Council  for
   2008 to 2011.

                       THURSDAY, 13 MARCH 2008

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Draft Bills submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159

(1)    Refugees Amendment Bill, 2008, submitted by the Minister of Home
     Affairs. Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Home  Affairs  and
     the Select Committee on Social Services.

  2) Prevention  of  and  Treatment  for  Substance  Abuse  Bill,  2008,
     submitted by the Minister of Social Development.  Referred  to  the
     Portfolio Committee on Social Development and the Select  Committee
     on Social Services.


  3) Expropriation Amendment Bill, 2008, submitted by  the  Minister  of
     Public Works. Referred to the Portfolio Committee on  Public  Works
     and the Select Committee on Public Services.

1. Introduction of Bills

 (1)    The Minister of Home Affairs


     a) Refugees Amendment Bill [B  11  –  2008]  (National  Assembly  –
        proposed sec 75) [Explanatory summary of Bill and  prior  notice
        of its introduction published in Government Gazette No 30835  of
        4 March 2008.]


         Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee  on  Home
         Affairs of the National Assembly, as well as referral  to  the
         Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in  terms  of
         Joint Rule 160.


         In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification
         of  the  Bill  may  be  submitted  to  the  JTM  within  three
         parliamentary working days.

National Council of Provinces

1. Message from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces in respect of Bill passed by Assembly and sent back to Council for concurrence

(1)    Bill amended and passed by National Assembly on  13  March  2008
     and returned for concurrence:


     (a)      Mandating Procedures of  Provinces  Bill  [B  8D  –  2007]
         (National Council of Provinces – sec 76).


         The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on Security
         and  Constitutional  Affairs  of  the  National   Council   of
         Provinces.

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Trade and Industry

(a)    Proclamation No 47 published  in  Government  Gazette  No  30594
     dated  14  December  2007:  Commencement  of  the  Corporate   Laws
     Amendment Act, 2006 (Act No 24 of 2006).

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson

   (a) Report of the Independent Commission for the Remuneration of Public Office Bearers for 1 January 2007 to 31 December 2007.

   (b) The Speaker of the National Assembly and the Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, as co-chairpersons of the Joint Rules Committee, present the Second Report of the Joint Rules Committee for 2007, as follows:

           SECOND REPORT OF JOINT RULES COMMITTEE, 2007
   
    The Joint Rules Committee, having on 28  February  2007  considered
    the report of the Joint Subcommittee on the Review of  Joint  Rules
    regarding Order in Joint Sittings and Rules of  Debate,  recommends
    the following amendments to the Joint Rules:
   
    1. Joint Rule 11 pertaining to “Relief  of  presiding  officer”  is substituted as follows:
   
      Relief of presiding officer
   
      11.   An elected presiding officer of either House must take the
           Chair whenever requested to do so  by  the  Speaker  or  the
           Chairperson of the Council.
   
    2. A new Chapter 2A entitled “Order in Joint Sittings and Rules  of
        Debate” is inserted as follows:
   
                            CHAPTER 2A
            ORDER IN JOINT SITTINGS AND RULES OF DEBATE
   
                  Part 1: Order in joint sittings
   
    Conduct of members
    14A (1) Every member, when he or she enters or leaves the  Chamber
            or moves to any other part of the Chamber during a  debate,
            unless the presiding officer directs otherwise,  shall  bow
            to the Chair in passing to or from his or her seat.
   
       (2)  No member shall pass between the Chair and the member  who
            is speaking nor stand in any of the passages or gangways.
   
    Members not to converse aloud
    14B     During debate no member shall converse aloud.
   
    Member not to be interrupted
    14C     No member shall interrupt another member whilst  speaking,
        except to call attention to a point of order or a question  of
        privilege.
    Order at adjournment
    14D     When a joint sitting rises, members shall rise and  remain
        in their places until  the  presiding  officer  has  left  the
        Chamber.
   
   
    Precedence of presiding officer
    14E     Whenever the presiding officer addresses members during  a
        debate, any member then speaking or  seeking  to  speak  shall
        resume his or her seat and  the  presiding  officer  shall  be
        heard without interruption.
   
   
    Irrelevance or repetition
    14F     The presiding officer, after having  called  attention  to
        the conduct  of  a  member  who  persists  in  irrelevance  or
        repetition of arguments, may direct the member to  discontinue
        his or her speech.
   
   
    Member ordered to withdraw
    14G     If the presiding officer is of the opinion that  a  member
        is deliberately contravening a provision of  these  Rules,  or
        that a member  is  in  contempt  of  or  is  disregarding  the
        authority of the Chair, or that a member's conduct is  grossly
        disorderly, he  or  she  may  order  the  member  to  withdraw
        immediately from the Chamber for the remainder of the sitting.
   
    Referral of member’s conduct to House
    14H      If  a  presiding  officer  is  of  the  opinion  that   a
        contravention committed by a member of either House is  of  so
        serious a nature that an order to withdraw  from  the  Chamber
        for the remainder of the sitting is inadequate, the  presiding
        officer may refer the matter to the Speaker or the Chairperson
        of the Council, whichever is relevant, for appropriate action.
   
    Expression of regret
    14I  (1)      A member who has been ordered to withdraw  from  the
            Chamber may submit to the Speaker or the Chairperson of the
            Council a written expression of regret.
   
   
        (2) A written expression of regret approved by the Speaker  or
            the Chairperson of the Council shall  be  recorded  in  the
            Minutes of Proceedings.
   
    Reflections upon judges, etc
    14J     No member shall reflect upon the competence or honour of a
        judge of a superior court or of the holder of any other office
        (other than a member of the  Government)  whose  removal  from
        such office is dependent upon a decision of either House.
   
   
    Grave disorder
    14K     In the event of grave disorder at a sitting, the presiding
        officer may adjourn the sitting or may suspend the proceedings
        for a period to be stated by him or her.
   
   
                      Part 2: Rules of debate
   
    Member to address Chair
    14L     At a Joint Sitting  a  member  may  only  speak  from  the
        podium, except —
   
   a) to raise a point of order or a question of privilege; and
   b) to furnish a personal explanation in terms of Rule 14R;
   c) if the member is unable to do so due to a physical disability; or
   d) with the prior consent of the presiding officer,
   
        when he or she may address the Chair from a microphone on  the
        floor of the Chamber.
   
    Calling of members
    14M     A member shall be called in  a  debate  by  the  presiding
         officer in accordance with a list of scheduled speakers.
   
   
    Time limits for speeches
    14N     Members shall be restricted, in regard to  the  length  of
         time they speak, to the times allocated to them in  the  list
         contemplated in Rule 14M.
   
   
    Reference to member by name
    14O     No member shall refer to any other member by  his  or  her
         first name or names only.
   
    Offensive language
    14P      No member shall use offensive or unbecoming language.
   
    Matters sub judice
    14Q      No member shall reflect on the merits  of  any  matter  on
         which a judicial decision is pending.
   
    Explanations
       14R (1)    An explanation during debate is allowed only  when  a
             material part of a member's speech has been  misquoted  or
             misunderstood, but such member shall not be  permitted  to
             introduce any new matter, and no debate shall  be  allowed
             upon such explanation.
   
        (2) A member may, with the  prior  consent  of  the  presiding
             officer, also explain matters of a  personal  nature,  but
             such matters may not be  debated,  and  the  member  shall
             confine himself or herself strictly to the vindication  of
             his or her own conduct and may not speak for  longer  than
             three minutes.
   
    Points of order
       14S (1)    When a point of order is raised,  the  member  called
             to order shall resume his or her seat, and after the point
             of order has been stated to the presiding officer  by  the
             member raising it, the presiding officer shall give his or
             her  ruling  or  decision  thereon  either  forthwith   or
             subsequently.
   
   
       (2)  A ruling to be given after the sitting has adjourned shall
             be given in the  National  Assembly  or  in  the  National
             Council  of  Provinces,  depending  on  which  House   the
             offending member belongs to.
   
       (3)  A ruling to be given in accordance with Subrule  (2)  may,
             by agreement of the presiding officers, be  delivered  and
             enforced by a presiding officer of the House to which  the
             offending member belongs on behalf of a presiding  officer
             from the other House.
   Acting for absent member
   14T      A member may take charge of an order of  the  day  in  the
        absence of the member in charge, provided he or she  has  been
        authorised to do so by the absent member.
   
    Right of members to speak
    14U      A member may speak —
        (a) when called upon to do so by the presiding officer; or
        (b) to a point of order.
   
   When reply allowed
    14V      A reply shall be  allowed  to  the  member  introducing  a
        subject for discussion (except in the case of the  President's
        state-of-the-nation address) or to the member in charge of  an
        order of the day.
   
    Debate closed
   14W      A reply to a debate closes the debate.
   

Report to be considered.

CREDA INSERT REPORT - T080313E-insert1 – PAGES 443-457.

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. Joint Budget Committee report on the Budget and Medium Term Expenditure Framework, dated 07 March 2008

“The economic expansion since 1994 has allowed public spending to rise rapidly in all areas…Over the period ahead, government’s spending plans again allow for a progressive extension of public services, informed by the “apex priorities” outlined by President Mbeki in the State of the Nation Address” – the Minister of Finance, Hon. T Manuel, Budget Speech 2008.

Having considered the Appropriation Bill [B 3-08 2008] (s77) and Division of Revenue 2008/09 [B 4-2008] (s76) (1) together with the Budget Review and Estimates of National Expenditure (ENE), and after reviewing the policy priorities as stated in the State of Nation Address (SONA), the Joint Budget Committee reports as follows:

1. INTRODUCTION

The Minister of Finance, the Hon. T Manuel, on 20 February 2008 tabled the budget – along with the Budget Review and Estimates of National Expenditure (ENE) 2008/09-2010/11 which includes the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework (MTEF). The budget 2008 was then referred to the Joint Budget Committee (JBC) (ATC 17 and 18 - 2008) to consider in terms of its mandate. The Committee is mandated to “consider proposed allocations in the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework and the Appropriation Bill and whether these allocations are broadly in keeping with the policy directions of Government.”

The Committee, jointly with the Portfolio Committee on Finance, engaged with the Minister of Finance, National Treasury and the South African Revenue Services (SARS) on the budget and MTEF. Further engagements where held on the Financial and Fiscal Commission’s (FFC) recommendations for the Division of Revenue. The Committee then engaged separately with National Treasury on the Budget Review, with a focus on medium-term priorities and the division of resources across clusters. This report is divided into three sections. Firstly, it comments on the fiscal framework, government priorities and the division of resources between spheres of government, secondly on the medium-term expenditure framework and the various government services and sectors and, lastly, on the Committee’s recommendations. The report is in preparation for the First Reading Debate on the Appropriation Bill.

1. THE FISCAL FRAMEWORK AND BUDGET PRIORITIES

Uncertainties in the global economy, rising inflation and supply constraints are expected to inhibit South Africa’s medium-term economic prospects, with growth projected to slow to around 4 percent in 2008, rising to over 4.5 percent by 2010. These factors could constrain government’s ability to meet its target of 6 percent annual growth by 2010. Notwithstanding these constraints government’s medium-term social and economic objectives have been adequately funded for effective implementation. These objectives, as set out in the government’s programme of action and MTBPS, include:

• Investing in both economic and  social  infrastructure  to  facilitate
  economic growth and access to basic services;
• Improving education, health and other services to reduce poverty;
• Enhancing job creation by supporting labour-absorbing  industries  and
  expanding employment-intensive government programmes;
• Improving the efficacy of police services and the justice system; and
• Enhancing the effectiveness of  economic  and  sectoral  interventions
  through the regulation of and support for business.

These objectives are further defined through the identification of 24 apex priorities for the forthcoming year. Specific interventions include, inter alia, expanding industrial policy, implementing a campaign to save electricity, consolidating skills development initiatives, strengthening the machinery of state, accelerating employment and poverty alleviation programmes and revamping the criminal justice system.

To accomplish government’s developmental objectives, the 2008 budget and MTEF propose that an additional R115.6 billion be added to the fiscus over the medium-term. Of the additional R115.6 billion, R78 billion is made available to national government, R45 billion for provincial government and R14 billion for local government.

The Committee believes that for these additions to advance government’s developmental agenda and enhance service delivery they must be accompanied by robust departmental planning, implementation, monitoring and timeous reporting. The Committee has consistently identified the misalignment of government planning, budgeting, and financial management. This includes under-spending, excessive virements i.e. shifting of funds between programmes, and wasteful expenditure – which becomes increasingly evident towards the end of the financial year.

Government has set a target of realizing efficiency savings of R2.3 billion over the next three years. Departments should clearly define how they intend to contribute to meeting this target. The Committee, in its report on the 2007 MTBPS (ATC: 137- 2007), asked National Treasury to develop a monitoring mechanism for government and report progress on this initiative.

The Committee has also taken cognisance of reforms to departmental budget formats as reflected in the ENE, and specifically, as part of the Performance Information Framework, the inclusion of quantifiable objectives and performance indicators for each department. The Committee considers this as an extremely important development as it will provide the foundation for results-based budgeting and improve oversight. The Committee will continue to engage National Treasury on the budget format.

1. GOVERNMENT SERVICES AND THE MEDIUM TERM EXPENDITURE FRAMEWORK

Governance and Administration

While the steady expansion of the fiscus is encouraging, the Committee maintains that improved delivery is only possible if government develops the capacity to absorb and spend resources effectively and efficiently. Although government expenditure has improved, the Committee has noted ongoing challenges in spending across all levels of government, which have compromised better service delivery. The situation is acknowledged by National Treasury that: “growth in public spending has not been matched by a concomitant improvement in service delivery”.

Given the capacity constraints, the Committee agrees with the emphasis given in the budget to training and capacity-building initiatives. Training expenditure in national departments is set to grow by 15 percent over the next three years. Government should give clear indicators on training and capacity-building targets. As highlighted in the MTBPS report, it is essential that the South African Management Development Institute (SAMDI), which receives an additional R103 million over the MTEF, complete its restructuring process and focus on implementation. It must also ensure that training programmes are of a high quality and are fully implemented.

The Committee is of the opinion that the recurring departmental vacancies are having a negative impact on budgeting, spending and service delivery. However government’s commitment to fill key posts during this year is a positive step but is not sufficient. The Committee believes that government should extend this commitment, which must be acted upon, to all vacancies. In addition, there should be a clear correlation between human resource plans and budgets in order to avoid excessive virements, especially from compensation of employees, later in the year. The Committee will continue to monitor this phenomenon closely and intervene if this trend persists.

The integration of planning and information systems are prerequisites for efficiency. Government has consequently undertaken to further align national, provincial and local development plans. Given the severe capacity shortcomings in many municipalities measures should be taken to ensure that the R1.5 billion allocated to modernise local government budgeting and financial management systems is well-spent. These resources must be matched by a discernible improvement in financial management and the delivery of basic services.

As part of the turnaround strategy to improve the capacity and organization of the Department of Home Affairs (DoHA), the budget proposes an additional R1.9 billion for the Department. Despite progress made, the Committee has observed ongoing deficiencies, which continue to frustrate citizens and undermine wider efforts in the public service.

Economic Services and Infrastructure

To stimulate economic development and job creation, the budget and MTEF provide a prudent R2.3 billion for industrial policy initiatives and a further R5 billion in tax incentives. The Committee agrees with these allocations but the swift implementation of the Industrial Policy Action Plan is fundamental.

The Committee is aware that agriculture’s contribution to the economy is well below its potential, which compromises exports and food security. At the same time there is a pressing need to finalize land restitution and accelerate distribution. While the budget provides a significant cash injection for these sectors, it is important that the departments of Land Affairs (DoLA) and Agriculture (DoA) overcome their organizational deficiencies. Given the challenges there is a risk that the allocated funds will not be efficiently, effectively and economically utilized. The challenges confronting the Land Bank should also be addressed as a priority to overcome wasteful and fruitless expenditure.

Public infrastructure and capital investment are prerequisites for sustained growth, employment creation and the hosting a successful 2010 World Cup. The budget and MTEF reflect a strong emphasis on infrastructure investment with expenditure set to rise from R124 billion in 2007/08 to R210 billion in 2010/11 – a 1.5 percent increase as a percent of GDP. A large share of proposed investment has been earmarked for the built environment. Although significant, infrastructure spending needs to accelerate over the long term.

Economic development depends on efficient transport systems. The budget and MTEF reflect strong growth in the transport sector, with expenditure set to reach R23 billion by 2010/11. The Committee agrees with the need for accelerated investment in this sector but budgetary expansion must be matched by the simultaneous expansion of monitoring and evaluation systems.

The housing sector budget is set to increase at an annual average rate of 19.1 percent between 2007/08 and 2010/11, more than any other. As underlined in the MTBPS report, the lack of capacity in the national Department of Housing (DoH), provinces and municipalities as well as weaknesses in co-ordination could hamper service delivery.

Power shortages have reached critical proportions over the past months, jeopardizing government’s economic development programmes. Investment in generation capacity and energy conservation is therefore an urgent and obvious priority. Government has indicated that it will invest up to R60 billion in Eskom over the next five years, of which an estimated R20 billion will be spent over the MTEFperiod. This is a substantial and long- term investment in the economy.

While infrastructure expenditure has steadily improved it is critical that planning and delivery of infrastructure is better aligned. This synchronization will ensure optimal spending. It remains imperative for capital projects to be accompanied by comprehensive maintenance plans, and the associated risks and costs reduced through effective planning and monitoring. In this regard, the Committee notes progress with the Infrastructure Delivery Implementation Programme (IDIP) and looks forward to a report on the proposed integrated infrastructure plan.

The skills deficit remains a serious and binding constraint. The budget reflects a renewed emphasis on skills development – R1.4 billion is earmarked for the Further Education and Training (FET) colleges and spending by the Sector Education and Training Authorities (SETA’s) is projected to rise from R6.8billion in 2007/08 to R9.1 billion by 2010/11. For these resources to be of maximum benefit, however, the Committee is convinced that there should be closer alignment between the programmes and curricula of these institutions and a higher employment rate for graduates. In executing its oversight function the Committee will call on government to report quarterly on progress with the implementation of the findings of the recent SETA review.

Social Services and Poverty Reduction

The social services continue to receive the largest share of revenue – 59.2 percent of total expenditure for the budget period, growing to 60.5 percent over the MTEF.

Social assistance and welfare grants are important instruments in addressing poverty. The budget and MTEF provide for the steady expansion of grants with an additional R12 billion for inflation-related increases and the extension of the Child Support Grant and Old Age Pension. These additions result in the social welfare sector growing by an annual average rate of 10.8 percent over the medium term. The expansion of the social net is welcome however grants should be effectively administered to ensure that funds reach the intended recipients within a reasonable time.

In terms of the ongoing reforms to the social security system, the Committee has identified a number of proposals that will have far-reaching budgeting implications for the sector. The Committee has also noted the suggestion to attach conditions to certain grants – such as linking the Child Support Grant to school attendance – however such conditions could exclude the marginalized unless government is able to simultaneously guarantee access to basic services. The Committee intends pursuing its oversight in this sector.

Education is recognized as pivotal to sustained growth and reducing inequality and as the foundation of a developmental state. The budget and MTEF proposals provide continued financial support for the sector – which grows at an average annual rate of 11.5 percent between 2007/08 and 2010/11. As highlighted in the 2007 MTBPS report, however, the sector has experienced a number of organizational and budgeting challenges, which have, at times, led to serious disjuncture between resources and outcomes.

The health sector is facing a number of acute challenges including the lack of personnel and inadequate infrastructure and capital equipment, which has compromised the provision of basic health services. The Committee notes the continued growth in the sector, with expenditure set to rise by an average annual rate of 10.6 percent. While these resources are necessary, planning and co-ordination in the sector as well as the capacity of the relevant departments to spend effectively remains a concern. The projected under- expenditure by a number of provinces on hospital revitalization for 2007/08 is an example.

In this regard, the implementation of concurrent functions and the apparent failure by certain provinces to support national priorities remains an extremely serious matter that should be urgently rectified. The Committee is also of the view that the performance of the social services, especially in the departments of education and health, is relatively difficult to quantify. Despite the increased allocations to education and health, the Committee is of the opinion that these are not commensurate qualitatively with the outcomes.

Justice and Protection Services

Crime remains at unacceptable levels, a situation which compromises both citizen security and government’s social and economic initiatives. To reduce crime to target levels, government has undertaken to revamp the criminal justice system as an apex priority.

The significant allocation of resources, over the MTEF period, to the Justice and Protection cluster, is not effectively aligned with the stated outputs and outcomes. It is imperative that an improvement in service delivery is linked to planned expenditure. More robust measures should be implemented in the financial management and the reporting systems of the cluster. The Committee expects the relevant institutions and departments to finalize institutional arrangements and recruitment processes within the shortest possible time.

The Committee appreciates the urgent need for new correctional facilities but is not convinced that the department has the capacity to spend additional funds effectively in this financial year, although the bulk of additional funds are earmarked for 2010/11. Construction projects are typically high-risk in nature – highlighted by the delays in the finalization of the Kimberley Correctional Centre. The Department of Correctional Services (DCS) should satisfy Parliament that it has taken account of all risks and operational implications relating to these projects.

1. CONCLUDING REMARKS AND RECOMMENDATIONS

The allocations proposed in the budget and MTEF are broadly in line with the policy priorities of government. However, the Joint Budget Committee has identified various challenges and has reservations about the ability of certain sectors and departments to absorb additional funds and spend their budgets with maximum effectiveness and efficiency. Having scrutinized the bills before it, participated in the budget hearings and subsequently deliberated, the Committee has made following recommendations.

1. Based on the directive in the State of the Nation Address of “Business Unusual”, departments must ensure that they spend their budgets in line with national priorities and their strategic plans, and avoid the current ad hoc utilization of virements.

2. National Departments should report to Parliament on spending, including transfers to provinces and public entities in meeting national priorities. Such reports should routinely include non- financial, performance information.

3. Departments should accelerate the establishment of sound administrative and financial systems to create an environment for effective and efficient financial management. The development of realistic key performance indicators should be included in this exercise.

4. To effectively reduce the current unacceptably high vacancy rates, affected departments should establish specific timeframes and furnish the JBC, on quarterly basis, with the progress in the filling of funded vacant posts. Notwithstanding the vacancy rate, effective and efficient service delivery goes beyond the deployment of funds and personnel and requires competency and commitment. The Committee therefore calls for a recommitment to the Batho Pele principles by all public servants.

Lastly, the Co-Chairperson would like to thank all those involved in the budget hearings and in the compilation of the report.

Report to be considered.

                        FRIDAY, 14 MARCH 2008 ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Introduction of Bills

 (1)    The Minister for Social Development


     (a)      Prevention of and Treatment for Substance Abuse Bill [B 12
         – 2008] (National Assembly –  proposed  sec  76)  [Explanatory
         summary of Bill and prior notice of its introduction published
         in Government Gazette No 30814 of 25 February 2008.]


         Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on Social
         Development of the National Assembly, as well as  referral  to
         the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in  terms
         of Joint Rule 160.


         In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification
         of  the  Bill  may  be  submitted  to  the  JTM  within  three
         parliamentary working days.

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry

   1) Rand Water Board’s Proposed increase in Water Tariffs for 2008-09, tabled in terms of section 42 of the Local Government: Municipal Finance Management Act, 2003 (Act No 56 of 2003).

   2) Sedibeng Water Board’s Proposed increase in Water Tariffs for 2008- 09, tabled in terms of section 42 of the Local Government: Municipal Finance Management Act, 2003 (Act No 56 of 2003).

   3) Magalies Water Board’s Proposed increase in Water Tariffs for 2008- 09, tabled in terms of section 42 of the Local Government: Municipal Finance Management Act, 2003 (Act No 56 of 2003).

   4) Pelladrift Water Board’s Proposed increase in Water Tariffs for 2008-09, tabled in terms of section 42 of the Local Government: Municipal Finance Management Act, 2003 (Act No 56 of 2003).

   5) Bushbuckridge Water Board’s Proposed increase in Water Tariffs for 2008-09, tabled in terms of section 42 of the Local Government: Municipal Finance Management Act, 2003 (Act No 56 of 2003).

   6) Amatola Water Board’s Proposed increase in Water Tariffs for 2008- 09, tabled in terms of section 42 of the Local Government: Municipal Finance Management Act, 2003 (Act No 56 of 2003). 7) Umgeni Water Board’s Proposed increase in Water Tariffs for 2008- 09, tabled in terms of section 42 of the Local Government: Municipal Finance Management Act, 2003 (Act No 56 of 2003).

   8) Mhlathuze Water Board’s Proposed increase in Water Tariffs for 2008- 09, tabled in terms of section 42 of the Local Government: Municipal Finance Management Act, 2003 (Act No 56 of 2003).

   9) Namakwa Water Board’s Proposed increase in Water Tariffs for 2008- 09, tabled in terms of section 42 of the Local Government: Municipal Finance Management Act, 2003 (Act No 56 of 2003).

 10) Overberg Water Board’s Proposed increase in Water Tariffs for 2008-
     09, tabled  in  terms  of  section  42  of  the  Local  Government:
     Municipal Finance Management Act, 2003 (Act No 56 of 2003).


 11) Botshelo Water Board’s Proposed increase in Water Tariffs for 2008-
     09, tabled  in  terms  of  section  42  of  the  Local  Government:
     Municipal Finance Management Act, 2003 (Act No 56 of 2003).


 12) Lepelle Northern Water Board’s Proposed increase in  Water  Tariffs
     for 2008-09, tabled in terms of section 42 of the Local Government:
     Municipal Finance Management Act, 2003 (Act No 56 of 2003).


 13) Bloem Water Board’s Proposed increase in Water Tariffs for 2008-09,
     tabled in terms of section 42 of the  Local  Government:  Municipal
     Finance Management Act, 2003 (Act No 56 of 2003).


 14) Albany Coast Water Board’s Proposed increase in Water  Tariffs  for
     2008-09, tabled in terms of section 42  of  the  Local  Government:
     Municipal Finance Management Act, 2003 (Act No 56 of 2003).