National Council of Provinces - 26 March 2008
WEDNESDAY, 26 MARCH 2008 __
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
____
The Council met at 14:03.
The Acting Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 679.
NOTICE OF MOTION
Mr M A MZIZI: Acting Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the Council I shall move:
That the Council-
1) notes with shock and horror that two foreign nationals were burnt
to death when a mob set their shacks alight in the Brazzaville
informal settlement in Atteridgeville, Pretoria;
2) further notes that xenophobia and violence against foreigners is
unacceptable and must be stopped; and (3) calls upon the relevant authorities to do more to provide
protection and a safer environment for foreign nationals within our
borders, as well as to try and teach tolerance and humanity to
South Africans who discriminate against foreigners.
DEATH OF DR IVAN TOMS
(Draft Resolution)
Ms D ROBINSON: Acting Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council –
1) notes with profound sadness the death of Dr Ivan Toms, Executive
Director of Health in the City of Cape Town on 25 March 2008;
2) notes that he was a recipient of our nation’s highest honour, the
Order of the Baobab;
3) recognises the courageous stand he took during the darkest days of
apartheid, his founding role in the End Conscription Campaign, and
his unwavering commitment to justice and peace;
4) further recognises his long history of devoted service to helping
the less fortunate and caring for the sick, especially those with
HIV/Aids;
5) acknowledges that he served with absolute distinction in his
position in the City, leading his department to international
acclaim and that his work will remain as a fitting tribute to his
life;
6) further acknowledges that through it all he maintained a remarkable
warmth of heart, a cheerful nature and a mischievous twinkle in his
eye; and
7) conveys its sincere sympathies to all who knew and loved him.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
LEAVE OF ABSENCE TO MEMBER
(Draft Resolution)
Mr A WATSON: Acting Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council, notwithstanding the provisions of Rule 17(1) of the Rules of the National Council of Provinces, grants hon J F Terblanche leave of absence from proceedings of both the Council and committees of the Council in terms of Rule 17(2) until the hon member has recovered to resume duty.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
MOTION OF CONDOLENCE
(The late Ms N C Kondlo)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Acting Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council –
1) notes with profound sadness the sudden departure of a hero and a
servant of our people, Ms Ncumisa Kondlo, who passed away on
Monday, 24 March 2008;
2) notes that Ms Kondlo, who was a member of the ANC in the National
Assembly and who was affectionately known by cadres of the movement
as “Comrade Sisi Ncumi”, will be buried on 5 April 2008 at Peddie
in the Eastern Cape;
3) further notes that Ncumisa Kondlo served in various formations of
the liberation movement in South Africa – she was a member of
Parliament, she was elected to the ANC National Executive Committee
and the National Working Committee at the ANC Polokwane conference
last December, she was Deputy Chairperson of the South African
Communist Party and was also elected as Chairperson of the ANC
Caucus early this year, and, as a servant of the people of South
Africa, she was elected as the MEC for Social Development in the
Eastern Cape province;
4) recognises that Ncumisa Kondlo was an outstanding cadre of the
movement and will be remembered for the outstanding and passionate
role she played towards the democratisation of this country and the
excellent service which she continued to render to the people of
South Africa, as they transformed into a democratic, nonracial,
nonsexist and prosperous society;
5) acknowledges that, as a selfless and gallant daughter of our
country’s revolution, Ncumisa Kondlo was highly regarded by many
comrades and people of this country as a true epitome of a
committed and dedicated cadre who gave her life for the liberation
of the people of South Africa from the shackles of poverty,
unemployment and underdevelopment; and
6) takes this opportunity to dip its revolutionary banner in honour of
this selfless hero of our people, and conveys its heartfelt
condolences and prayers to the Kondlo family, particularly to her
mother, son and three sisters.
May her soul rest in peace! Lala kakuhle Qabane!
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
SUSPENSION OF RULE 239(1)
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Acting Chair, I move the draft resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:
That Rule 239(1), which provides inter alia that the consideration of a Bill may not commence before at least three working days have elapsed since the committee’s report was tabled, be suspended for the purposes of consideration of the Local Government Laws Amendment Bill [B 28B – 2007] (National Assembly – sec 75) on Wednesday, 26 March 2008.
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms P M Hollander): I shall now put the question. The question is that the report be adopted. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber. In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces an opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. Is there any province that wants to make a declaration? We shall now proceed to voting in alphabetical order. Eastern Cape?
Mr D G MKONO: Siyaxhasa. [We support.]
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms P M Hollander): Free State?
Mr T S RALANE: Iyaseketela. [We support.]
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms P M Hollander): Gauteng?
Mr E M SOGONI: Ke a rona. [We support.]
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms P M Hollander): KwaZulu-Natal?
Mr Z C NTULI: KwaZulu-Natal iyavuma. [KwaZulu-Natal supports.]
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms P M Hollander): Limpopo?
Ms H F MATLANYANE: Limpopo ondersteun. [Limpopo supports.]
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms P M Hollander): Mpumalanga?
Ms M P THEMBA: Mpumalanga ondersteun. [Mpumalanga supports.] The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms P M Hollander): Northern Cape?
Mr C M GOEIEMAN: Ondersteun. [We support.]
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms P M Hollander): North West?
Mr Z S KOLWENI: North West supports.
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms P M Hollander): Western Cape?
Mr N J MACK: Siyavuma. [Western Cape supports.]
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms P M Hollander): All nine provinces have voted in favour. I therefore declare the report adopted in terms of section 65 of the Constitution.
Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
DIVISION OF REVENUE BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thank you very much, Acting Chairperson and the hon members. The National Treasury and the Minister of Finance would like to thank the National Council of Provinces for the thorough and expeditious manner in which it processed the 2008 Division of Revenue Bill.
As the Minister of Finance and Treasury we would also like to express our sincere gratitude to the select committee under the stewardship of Mr Ralane for meticulously guiding the consultative process and also for ensuring that the National Council of Provinces is able to get through this Bill.
Because of the Division of Revenue Bill, which is an annual piece of legislation, it is also possible for some of us to ensure that at the end of the day some of the provisions of the Constitution are met. Yet in many ways this is one piece of legislation which, if we were to fail to pass it in time, would cause the wheels of government to grind to a halt and would also cause undue difficulties for government.
Given the amount of time that the NCOP devotes to the Division of Revenue Bill there is no doubt that it appreciates its significance in the operations of all spheres of government. The Division of Revenue Bill is, and will continue to be, the embodiment of co-operative governance which is fundamentally important for the efficient functioning of our intergovernmental system. It is an outcome of extensive consultative processes which culminated in a meeting of the extended Cabinet which comprises of the national executive, the provincial Premiers and representatives from the organised local government.
The Bill represents a critical link between policy choices that political office bearers make and the programmes that get funded through national, provincial and local government budgets and thus implemented by various administrative arms of government to deliver a better life for all citizens of South Africa.
Although a substantial part of the Bill has remained unchanged over the last few years, some of the amendments introduced this year represent a profound change in financial governance. If implemented in their entirety, the changes will entrench transparency and should further deepen accountability for the management and utilisation of public resources within our own intergovernmental systems.
The introduction of systematic gazetting of three-year allocations for cost centres such as hospitals and schools will give the managers of these institutions certainty about the resources they are going to receive over the medium term. This should enable them to plan better and to implement the various programmes even much faster.
Similarly, the process that the Bill proposes with regard to forward planning for housing and the requirement that provincial departments of housing should agree on project and indicative allocations for future years should lay a sound basis for better human settlement planning in the periods ahead. This should allow municipalities to earmark land for housing development, to budget for and lay out infrastructure necessary to support well-integrated housing developments.
If this works, as it should, we should begin to break the stubborn apartheid spatial settlement patterns which beset many of our cities and towns today.
I am aware that the select committee would have preferred to retain the clauses relating to housing accreditation that were in the previous Acts but was, indeed, persuaded otherwise. [Interjections.] This again attests to the flexibility with which the NCOP approaches the debate on the Division of Revenue Bill.
Some of the changes contained in this year’s Bill address specific concerns that the select committee brought to our attention. For instance, this Bill requires institutions and agencies that undertake to deliver on behalf of government departments to report funds they receive from departments and the actual spending on those resources.
The days of using government agencies to hide underspending are over. This fiscal dumping has come to an end. This deals with a matter of mutual interest between the National Treasury and also the National Council of Provinces.
As hon members will recall, this year’s Bill allocates R115,6 billion in additional spending over the next three years, in comparison with our spending plans from a year earlier. Of the additional resources, national departments will receive R55,5 billion, provinces R45,7 billion and municipalities R14,4 billion. Schedule 1 of the Bill provides the summary of the allocation of funds to the three spheres of government, after taking account of the revisions of baselines.
Of the R611 billion budgeted for the 2008-09 financial year, national departments received R386,8 billion, which include a debt serving cost of R51,2 billion, a contingency reserve of R6 billion and conditional grants to provinces and municipalities. Provinces received R199,4 billion, and R24,9 billion is also allocated to local government as per their equitable share.
Including conditional transfers, allocation to provinces will amount to R238 billion in the financial year 2008-09. The increase over the baseline for the next three years amounts to R46 billion to provide in particular for improvement in education, health, welfare and housing programmes.
This year’s Bill adds R14,4 billion over baseline allocation to municipalities. This will see the local government sphere receiving a total of R152,7 billion, which includes R7,5 billion in allocation in kind over the next three years. The local government equitable share receives a further R6,5 billion over the baseline to sustain the momentum gathered over the years in the delivery of free water, electricity, sanitation to all poor households.
Municipal infrastructure related spending is also allocated an additional R7 billion over the next three years. This results in the total infrastructure transferred to municipalities totalling just under R57 billion over the next three years.
Host cities for the 2010 Fifa World Cup received further allocations to facilitate the provision of infrastructure and services related to this great competition. The Bill requires municipalities to confirm the budget for 2010 related infrastructure by June so as to facilitate the covering of this cost.
On Budget Day and during the subsequent debate on the Division of Revenue Bill in the National Assembly the Minister of Finance alluded to the challenge of misalignment between national priorities in relation to concurrent functions and provincial budgets which are supposed to give effect to these priorities.
I am aware that only yesterday the select committee held discussions with select provincial treasuries and departments of education with a view to seeking clarity on why a substantial portion of the R2,7 billion earmarked for school infrastructure is not properly reflected in their budgets. While the discussion might not have been entirely conclusive, it is a very important and welcome development. It represents yet another positive development in the exercise of accountability within the context of our intergovernmental relations arrangement.
Now, more than ever before, provinces know that the NCOP does not merely pass a Bill that allocates the resources between the spheres, but it pays particular attention to very important details. It checks whether the money ends up in the priorities and programmes that inform the divisions of revenues in the first place, and this is what I believe accountability is all about. For concurrent functions we need to see more of this in the future.
The Bill is also about to be passed and most processes relating to the allocation of resources are also about to be concluded. The next critical aspect in our accountability cycle kicks in, namely regular reporting on expenditure and service delivery. Again, we should applaud the Select Committee on Finance for the enthusiasm and the rigour with which it deliberates on the spending trends and service delivery performance every quarter after the publication of the section 32 report. Provinces are aware that the threat of losing conditional grant allocations due to slow spending is real. This, I think, is the most important development that, at the end of the day, the issues of conditional grants and the ability to improve service has come into sharp focus by the NCOP and I believe that my colleagues at the provincial level are also aware of this great challenge of us needing to ensure that resources earmarked for specific activities reach those destinations. This is what gives real meaning to democracy.
We need to increasingly complement financial information with nonfinancial information so that we can always be sure about the correctness of our decisions and the value we get from each and every rand. To this end the 2008 Division of Revenue Bill will assist us by requiring more systematic reporting on nonfinancial information, albeit with some lag, of course.
As we improve the system of reporting on performance, our ability to evaluate efficiency of spending will be enhanced. We shall make more informed resource allocation decisions as required by our own mandate.
Chairperson and hon members, the allocation contained in the Bill we are debating today sets a firm basis for accelerated delivery of more and better services to our people. This places our government, as a whole, provinces and municipalities in a particular position that enhances the delivery of services and improves the lives of our people. Thank you very much.
Mr T S RALANE: Acting Chairperson, I want to share some reflections with my colleagues.
As the Deputy Minister said, yesterday we convened a very urgent meeting. Now, in convening that meeting, we did not call the Western Cape. I want to congratulate the MEC in the Western Cape for doing the right thing. We also did not convene KwaZulu-Natal for doing the right thing. However, we did invite our colleagues in education, precisely because this is a very critical matter.
About two or three weeks ago we were told that additional funding was given to provinces, specifically for infrastructure, namely, schools, classes, etc. However, then we were also told that some of these provinces had not allocated the money. So the discussion yesterday was very, very heated. I’ve never seen Mr Fuzile so heated in a meeting. [Laughter.]
The meeting was very, very heated yesterday. Almost everybody was fighting. Even the members became very heated in that meeting. It was so difficult to handle, precisely because some of the provinces denied knowing about this money. And so, for instance, when we were in Mpumalanga, the head of department in Mpumalanga denied knowing about this money. He said to us he still wanted to go and do research to find out where this money was, etc. This was discussed in his presence three or four times at the Budget Council. And, again, in that meeting in Mpumalanga - I’d never seen Mr Brown before and he is not here - he was very heated in raising the issues in that discussion. So, we have taken a decision, therefore, that the National Treasury and the provincial treasuries must go back and trace every cent of this money.
Secondly, this money must be allocated to where it must go to, failing which it must then be withheld and be given to the Western Cape and KwaZulu- Natal for doing the right things. So, clearly, there are very serious problems of hiding money somewhere in the provinces, if we are not very careful.
There is one matter we want to raise with members, because they are going to the constituencies. We were in Mpumalanga, where there is a certain municipality. I’m raising a matter that relates to section 13 of the Local Government: Municipal Finance Management Act, which talks about cash management and investment. Now, this municipality says to us that they need R18 million, but then they have an investment of R300 million. Yes. Now, the intention of the law is clear. The law is also clear - you invest money that you do not need immediately.
There is a general practice, therefore, in the municipalities, across the country, where, if you go through their budgets – all of them – you will find there is investment in every municipality. Now, it is not a big deal, but for us the issue is, one, that they need money now. They come before the committee and plead poverty now, yet there is money sitting in some market. The second issue is the morality of investing in the midst of massive poverty, unemployment, etc. It’s a very serious matter.
As we go to the constituencies, there is a matter that we also need to check with our municipalities, in terms of the same budgets, with the focus on the capital budget versus the operational budget. In the majority of cases, operational budgets are much higher than capital budgets, but in the operational budget the biggest chunk goes to salaries. Again, in Mpumalanga, one municipality said to us that they have identified 1330 positions, and they have filled 642 positions, but the salary bill as we speak is about 45%. If the additional 700 plus positions are filled, what is it going to do to service delivery? The problem is that service delivery is going to be compromised.
The other problem that we have picked up - it’s unfortunate that I’m talking about this one province - is that one municipality gave us a report but, two weeks ago, they reported something different on the same issues to the National Treasury. This is about the credibility of a budget. Members, if a budget is not credible, it poses some problems, and those problems relate to service delivery, the sustainability of the budget, and the quality of service delivery. The other thing we want to raise with you to monitor and engage on with our colleagues in the municipalities is something called a Mayor’s Discretionary Fund. It’s something that does not exist in the MFMA, but then our own mayors have introduced this thing in a clever manner, because it is now called “Special Projects in Mayors’ Offices”. The problem with this is that you are not able to do oversight on it, because it is not a particular programme. So, it is a matter that we are raising and engaging with to ensure that these tendencies do not happen.
Now, part of what we’ve introduced in the brand new Division of Revenue Bill is as a result of what we also saw in the last financial year. In one province - let me also name it - the Eastern Cape, the department of health has built about 60 clinics. The problem with these clinics is that there are no roads leading to them. How do you deal with those matters? It’s all wasteful spending.
What we have done, therefore, in terms of the new Division of Revenue Bill, is to ensure that every project that is going to be undertaken must be in line with the Integrated Development Plans. Every project undertaken must be in line with the IDPs, so that as you do whatever projects you do, you should not parachute the projects.
We’ve seen this again in the Gateway to Africa. We received a report from the Eastern Cape that the department of roads is not building roads to farms. It is the department of agriculture that is doing that. When we went to Limpopo, we had the same departments under one roof. The department of roads said it was not aware that the department of agriculture was building roads. Again, it has to do with the issues of the IDP integration and proper planning.
So, I’m raising all of these things as challenges that all of us must engage with, in the context of this brand new Division of Revenue Bill, to ensure that all of this money that the Deputy Minister talks about - there is so much money that is going to municipalities and to provinces - goes to service delivery. I thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mr M O ROBERTSON: Chairperson, hon members, the Eastern Cape province receives R35,9 billion in the new financial year. This provincial government receives 15% of the total transfers to all provinces. The amount of R4,6 billion which is the Eastern Cape’s share constitutes conditional grants and a balance of R31,3 billion attributable to equitable share. In other words, the Eastern Cape receives 11,9% of the total conditional grant allocated to provinces.
The 2008 Division of Revenue Bill provides for increased public expenditure over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, focusing on programmes that reduce poverty and inequality. The budget for the Department of Education has been increased by 22,8% in the new financial year commencing in April
- The provincial department of education will use the additional resources to fund the following policy priorities: improvement in the conditions of service adjustment; funding for early childhood development; provision of textbooks for Grades 10, 11 and 12; infrastructure, namely school building programmes, and additional funding for maintenance of schools infrastructure; and, lastly, funding for no-fee schools.
In the 2008-09 financial year, the budget of the Department of Health will increase by 20,8%. Included in this allocation are financial resources provided to continue the implementation of Project 5000, which commenced in the 2007-08 financial year. An amount has also been included in the department’s allocation to boost the maintenance budget of the department.
The R294,4 million that was taken away from the provincial department in the 2007 Adjustments Estimate Budget, has also been restored and included in the additional amount provided in the department’s budget. Part of the additional allocation will also fund the adjustment in the improvement of conditions of service, purchase of generators to forestall electricity disruptions in hospitals and the treatment of tuberculosis.
The budget of the Department of Social Development will increase by 56,9% in the next financial year. This will bring the department’s allocation for the financial year 2008-09 to R1,4 billion. Among the expenditure items that the additional R502,3 million will fund are the following: 1,5% improvement in conditions of service adjustment; funding for occupational service dispensation; expansion of Early Childhood Development; developing of monitoring and evaluation systems; expansion of home and community-based care; and provision of services to children in conflict with the law.
In addition, the R72 million that was taken away from the department in the 2007 Adjustments Estimate Budget has been restored and included in the additional R502,3 million allocated to the department.
The budget of the Department of Economic Development and Environmental Affairs will increase by 15,1% in the 2008-09 financial year. The sharp increase of the department’s 2008-09 allocation is attributable to the allocation of R100 million for the Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative for South Africa-related projects that will be implemented in the coming financial year.
Also included in the additional allocation is an amount of R37,4 million carry-through cost for the Ugie/Maclear projects which fall under the Mhlaba District Municipality in the north of the Eastern Cape; and R5 million to fund the planning of the provincial industrial strategy and economy-related projects, which are basically timber.
With effect from the 1 April 2008 financial year, Housing will become a fully fledged department with its own programmes and budget structures. This follows from the separation of Housing functions from Local Government and Traditional Affairs functions in the current financial year. For the 2008-09 financial year the Department of Housing will receive R1,4 billion, made up predominantly of the housing and human settlement and development. The setting-up cost and the carry-through cost of the department will be R21,6 million. The staff from Local Government and Traditional Affairs are expected to cross over with effect from 1 April 2008. The Eastern Cape provincial government declares its support for the 2008 Division of Revenue Bill without amendments. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr Z S KOLWENI: Chairperson, Deputy Minister, MECs in the House, my colleagues, the debate on dealing with revenue that we are having today, cannot just be regarded as an ordinary piece of legislation, because it embraces intergovernmental fiscal relations and it is one Bill that cannot be postponed or delayed.
The Constitution entitles provinces to a share of nationally raised revenue. It is divided among provinces on the basis of a provincial equitable share formula. The equitable share formula is reviewed and updated every year for the new data, taking into account the recommendations of the Financial and Fiscal Commission. For this year’s budget, the structure of the formula was not changed but only updated with the data from the previous 2007 Community Survey, the 2007 Education Snap Survey, and the 2006 General Households Surveys.
The two main funding channels from the National Revenue Fund to provinces and local government are equitable shares and conditional grants. The equitable share is a block grant. Although equitable shares have no conditions attached the spending thereof is governed by national priorities. The conditional grants’ aim is to enhance the delivery of specific services according to prescribed national norms.
The equitable shares are intended to strengthen provincial social services programmes that have a high impact on human development and the quality of life. The focus continues to be on public schooling, health and programmes contributing to social development. In education the focus is on scaling up Grade R, training more practitioners and the procurement of textbooks for Grades 10, 11 and 12 learners.
The provincial health budget is geared towards the reinforcement of the public health system and to ensure that it meets the needs of those who depend on it. Health allocations are set aside to mitigate TB and Aids, redesign existing facilities and to build new hospitals.
Now, with reference to the conditional grants to provinces, two changes are introduced in this 2008 Division of Revenue Bill. The changes are as follows: Firstly, the Further Education and Training College Capitalisation Grant will be phased into the provincial equitable share from 1 April this year. The programmes funded through this conditional grant will continue to receive funding, but as part of provincial departments of education’s normal responsibilities. Secondly, a new transitional grant is introduced, namely, Devolution of Property Rate Fund Grant, in order to ensure that provinces take over the responsibility of paying the property rates and the municipality charges of properties that were administered by national government on their behalf.
Conditional grants remain an important part of the intergovernmental transfer system to supplement programmes also funded by provinces, such as infrastructure and central hospitals and also support for transition and capacity-building.
On aggregate, provinces failed to spend R4,4 billion in the financial year ending 2006, and have as well failed to spend R2,4 billion during the 2007 financial year. The figures for the current financial year ending in March 2008 will soon be released.
The concerns outlined do not reveal difficulties in the intergovernmental relations. In fact, if anything at all, the marked improvement in provincial financial management and the first-ever release of the three- year budget by the municipalities from 1 July 2003, are excellent demonstrations of our continually evolving intergovernmental fiscal relations. The provinces, moreover, have increased their year-on-year spending when compared with the previous financial year.
So, at this level there is no need for prophets of doom when we are confronted with new dilemmas. What is required is a consistent application of vision of our movement which is spelt out in the manifesto, so as to produce the desired outcome. The ANC, having succeeded before, has no reason why it cannot succeed now and in the future. The ANC must continue to probe national and provincial departments, thereby consolidating our national framework for social change and transformation. Some of the plausible explanations advanced for this underspending are as follows: Provinces experienced natural disasters such as floods. These unanticipated events required that plans, originally drafted before the new financial year commenced, be changed and re-crafted at short notice in the financial year and, in some instances, the late approval of business plans and tenders, or the late approval of tenders and lack of a foolproof process in awarding tenders to successful bidders. The ANC supports this Bill without amendments. Thank you. [Applause.] Ms S MANGENA (Limpopo): Chairperson, I really thank you very much for this opportunity to come and say what Limpopo thinks about this Division of Revenue Bill.
The main two funding channels from the National Revenue Fund to provinces and local governments are equitable shares and conditional grants. Those are the two that we usually get as provinces. The equitable shares are block grants. Although equitable shares have no conditions attached to them, the spending thereof is governed by national priorities. The conditional grant aims to enhance the delivery of specific services according to prescribed national norms.
The only thing that I’m worried about is that even if these monies are given to the provinces …
… rena, re le ba lefapha, ga re di šomiše ka mokgwa wo di swanetšego go šomišwa ka gona. Se se nkwišago bohloko ke gore … [… we, as the department, are not utilising them the way they are supposed to be utilised. What hurts me is that …]
… as a parent I cannot tell my child to go to the shop and buy bread, and the child comes with a cake. It’s not what I said he should buy.
Maybe, as legislatures, our duties should be to ensure that we monitor this immediately the money is despatched, whether to the municipalities or to the departments.
The thing is that we just put the money there and leave it. We wait for the Auditor-General to say that money has not been used. Immediately the Auditor-General says that this money has not been used, we stand up and start accusing the department, “Why didn’t you do one, two and three?”
If quarterly reports could really be written and we are told how much has been spent and we know that if we say they should use 25%, then that 25% should really be used, not 40% and not 15% but 25%.
One is satisfied with this Division of Revenue Bill but the only thing that I’m looking at, hon Deputy Minister, is Limpopo. We are still worried about it. You are giving us too little money.
Look at the people who are coming across our borders, especially since we are seen as a gateway to Africa. Those Africans, when they come down here, end up in our province first and then they stay there for many years before going to the rest of the country.
So, while you are dishing out money, please make sure that you give us more than the other provinces, more than Gauteng and the Western Cape. [Applause.] The amount of R3,2 billion, which is Limpopo’s share, constitutes conditional grants and the balance of R25,9 billion is attributable to the equitable share; in other words, Limpopo receives 8,19% of the total conditional grants allocated to the provinces. As I have already said, this is really too little. If we were given maybe 45% of that, it would have been alright.
With reference to the conditional advance to provinces, two changes are introduced in the 2008 Division of Revenue Bill. The changes are as follows: The FET College Recapitalisation Grant will be phased into the provincial equitable share from 1 April 2009; and the programmes funded through this conditional grant will continue to receive funding as part of provincial departments of education’s normal responsibilities.
A new transitional grant is introduced, namely, the Devolution of Property Rates Fund Grant, in order to make sure provinces take over responsibilities of paying the properties rates and municipalities changes of properties that were administered by the national government on their behalf.
Conditional grants remain an important part of the intergovernmental transfer system. Conditional grants provide supplementary programmes that are also funded by provinces, for example, infrastructure, central hospitals and clinics.
I was listening to the chairperson saying that in one province 60 clinics were built and there are no roads to go to those clinics. How do we use such clinics if we don’t have roads? If ambulances are to go and pick up people from such clinics, how do they get there? Do we carry the people to the main road and wait for the ambulance to come there two hours later? People will just die while they are waiting for that.
While the Division of Revenue Bill strengthens an arrangement of programmes in social development, incrementally achieving the socioeconomic rise affirmed in our Constitution, the mere allocation of financial resources to this project is not the only precondition for the elimination of poverty. It requires, among others, vigilant oversight by public representatives in order to ensure the possibility of accepted outcomes.
As I was saying, let’s ensure that whenever we dish out money, we go and see what people have done with that money. What is it that they did with the money? They will have to send you a report to tell you what they have used the money for. Did they spend it on toilet paper that costs a R100 per roll? Is it on the pencils that they have bought for R15 or R20? And we still say nothing. We are satisfied because they bought that. It’s there on paper but when you go to their offices and ask to see what they have bought, they are never able to show you.
This oversight responsibility calls for an examination of performance against measurable objectives and, more importantly, against performance of the financial allocations in the past financial year.
Reports submitted by departments and municipalities must not leave information to the imagination of the reader. I mean, I cannot just imagine that they have bought something and believe that what they tell me is true.
Chairperson, raising questions and tabling of discussions on matters of importance in the NCOP and the legislatures are effective mechanisms for enhancing parliamentary democracy and for exercising oversight responsibilities.
Parliamentary questions are important instruments for monitoring the performance of national and provincial Ministries and municipalities and for providing an essential check on the activities of the various spheres of government.
The convening of public hearings is a crucial exercise in monitoring the spending patterns of provinces through public hearings. It’s either through the NCOP or the legislatures and the use of questions and replies in the NCOP or legislatures that members will ensure that regular inspection of budgets and expenditures occur. This active monitoring of budgets and expenditure at regular intervals would timeously assist in detecting expenditure that is at variance with approved plans of national and provincial departments and municipalities.
The regular inspection of expenditure against an approved budget is essential to detect, for example, whether expenditure exceeded any approved limits. This will show us that these people were given R100 but they said that they have used R300. Where did they get the R200 from?
What the chairperson is saying is that a municipality needs R18 million a go but they’ve got R300 million stashed somewhere. Why don’t they apply for that and use the R18 million instead of asking money from the National Treasury?
Chairperson, the Limpopo legislature found that the Division of Revenue Bill complies with the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa. The Division of the Revenue Bill is very clear on the allocations made to the province and local spheres of government and what the municipalities in the province will be receiving in terms of the schedules of the Bill. Those are the people that we really should go to and check on to establish what it is that they are doing with the monies that are given to them. They can collect those rates and taxes, but they are not being used as they are supposed to.
There is underspending of the equitable share and the conditional grants by most of the departments. The Bill also introduces a new transitional grant, namely, the Devolution of Property Rate Funds Grant.
In conclusion, the Limpopo province would recommend and support this Bill. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]
Ms D ROBINSON: Acting Chairperson, Deputy Minister and members, the Division of Revenue Bill for 2008 was tabled in a very different climate to that in which these Bills have been tabled previously.
South Africa, in 2008, has an environment of high inflation, high interest rates, slipping consumer and business confidence and increased market volatility. Given that particular landscape, we believe the Minister has responded well to the challenges before us, by announcing a Budget with a cautionary tone that we should all heed, but a Budget that, nonetheless, increases equitable shares quite significantly, as well as considerable increases in conditional grants to both provincial and local governments.
As members of this House are well aware, the DA has long championed the belief that services are best delivered when they are closer to the people. That is why we defended strong provinces during the constitutional negotiations and why we continue to do so today. It is therefore pleasing to see that the 2008 division of revenue sees a significant redirection of funds away from national government to the local and provincial spheres. Over the medium term, local government’s share of total national revenue will rise to 8,3%, up from this year’s figure of 7,6%. The rise is even more marked at provincial level. We were also pleased to see 15,3% and 20,3% increases in the equitable share for provinces and local government respectively.
It is also encouraging to see that government is taking the need to invest in infrastructure seriously and recognising its importance in the growth of our economy. Infrastructure is the backbone of our economy and investments such as the additional R2,7 billion for school infrastructure are most welcome.
However, there are some important points of concern on which we need to focus. Firstly, we need to raise serious concern about the chronic underspending of many provincial departments. Although third quarter expenditure was slightly improved this year, departments are still persistently failing to meet their expenditure targets. This means that services are not being delivered to the poor, those most needy of reliable delivery, whether it be for the provision of water, nutrition for their children, clinics or roads, which are vital for the success of businesses and, of course, schooling.
In hearings, expenditure failures are often attributed to the now-clichéd lack of capacity. It was therefore most heartening to hear an MEC from the Northern Province yesterday quite candidly declare that lack of capacity is a euphemistic excuse for rank incompetence. Consequently, worthy programmes such as the school nutrition programme cannot be extended until provinces show that they can deliver on their present allocations. Provincial departments must stop hiding behind these kinds of excuses and begin to accept full accountability for missed targets. Stricter and more rigorous monitoring must also be enforced. We need to be able to identify problem areas with departments and intervene before the reporting date, not after the event. What we need to do is prevent underspending by intervening proactively instead of punishing retroactively.
Secondly, we have noticed for several years now that the ability of civil society, of political parties and of Parliament and indeed of citizens to engage with the Budget process is limited at best. The Treasury employs huge amounts of resources in developing and marketing the Budget, resources which those other stakeholders cannot match. Participation in the Budget process therefore tends to take government’s position on certain key budgetary debates for granted. The budgetary process is sometimes rushed to fit in with Parliament’s programme, to the extent that there is not enough public participation or opportunity to really influence the Budget. This, to a certain extent, limits debate and the accountability role of Parliament and of our citizens.
Statistics South Africa is busy determining our national definition of poverty, …
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): Hon member, there is a point of order. Is there any point of order?
Mr T S RALANE: Is she prepared to take a question?
Ms D ROBINSON: No, I am not.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): Take your seat, hon member. She said she can’t take a question.
Ms D ROBINSON: … a definition which will have a massive material impact on the way the Budget is prepared and divided, and yet, even respected civil society groups such as the Black Sash, who work in poor communities across South Africa, have not adequately been consulted.
We renew our call for the Budget to be demystified. The Treasury cannot reply to the comments of the committee or the provincial delegations with simple one-line responses, which tend to state things as a matter of fact, not as a matter of deeper debate.
Finally, although not directly related to the division of revenue, we note the support given by the National Treasury to the process of housing accreditation to competent municipalities. The multiparty government in the Cape Town Metro has proven that they are amply capable of delivering high- quality housing in quantity, yet their application for accreditation has not been responded to by the provincial department. Again, it is the poor who suffer when the government drags its feet.
I agree with hon Sogoni that clause 39(3) of the Bill is not adequate, as the Treasury argues, in ensuring that those municipalities which have demonstrated the ability to deliver housing are able to do so. We therefore support the Treasury’s call for the Department of Housing to provide us with a detailed timeline of when competent municipalities will be accredited.
In conclusion, it was Thomas Jefferson who once wrote … The DA supports the Division of Revenue Bill. [Applause.]
Ms M N MTSWENI (Mpumalanga): Chairperson, Deputy Minister and members of the House, when addressing the nation on the occasion of the opening of Parliament on 8 February 2008, our President Thabo Mbeki called on the nation to rally together and unite in the spirit of ``Business Unusual’’. He said, and I quote:
More than at any other time, the situation that confronts our nation and country, and the tasks we have set ourselves, demand that we inspire and organise all our people to act together as one, to do all the things that have to be done, understanding that in a very real sense, all of us, together, hold our own future in our own hands!
It gives me great pleasure today to respond and make an input to the Budget Speech of the hon Minister of Finance, Mr Trevor Manuel, which he delivered in the recent past.
In crafting the Budget that he was to deliver before Parliament, the hon Minister must have been ruminating on the words of the President, and therefore decided to deliver a Budget that will show that we have our own future in our own hands.
The hon Minister has mentioned that our key economic policies are anchored in solid mooring for our economic progress. He has also said that we follow a prudent fiscal stance which may enable us to withstand the turbulence that he foresees in the future. With those words, the Minister delivered a very optimistic but cautious Budget which is very poor-friendly to the nation. In his own words, the hon Minister said, and I quote:
Our sound footing will enable us to grow at a faster pace, and generate the resources to broaden participation and improve the lives of all South Africans progressively and sustainably.
The Budget that has been presented by the hon Minister fully encapsulates the aspirations and ideas of the President of the country, and indeed the wishes of the people of the country. It is precisely the type of economic growth that the hon Minister foresees that will enable the government to achieve its goal of empowering all of our people to rise from the ashes of poverty and unemployment.
When we met as the ANC in Polokwane at the end of 2007, we reaffirmed to ourselves that the noble aim of the NDR, namely fighting poverty, defeating mass unemployment and creating a more equal society, will be achieved through the correct management of the finances of the country, Deputy Minister. Our belief has not been in vain because the hon Minister has improved on the following: There is a significant increase in social expenditure, especially health and education. There are increased allocations in social security, increased support in basic services, and more allocations in support of public works programmes.
But, amid all the euphoria of a Budget that is poor-friendly and amid all the excitement of a Budget that is meeting our expectations as a nation, the hon Minister has warned of turbulent times ahead. He has said so by saying that ``The course ahead will be somewhat tougher.’’ It will be during those times that we will need each other for support. Therefore all of us, the employed and the unemployed, the public and the private sector, would need to heed the words of the hon Minister when he says:
During periods of uncertainty, it is important that we keep focused on the things required to raise long-term growth. The circumstances call to each one of us to do more, to act with greater determination and to act together … Our investments in physical infrastructure, education and skills, research and development, fighting crime and contributing to regional peace are aimed at improving our growth prospects and broadening opportunity, so that when the storm abates, we will grow even faster, with more equitable outcomes.
Our unemployment figures are too high, Deputy Minister. For as long as we do not create jobs, our people will be poor. Poverty is the handmaiden of many ills that can occur in our society. It will therefore undo the many good things that we can achieve with the Budget that the Minister has passed. It is for that reason that at the Polokwane Conference, at the end of 2007, we resolved that answering the challenges of unemployment, poverty and inequality means that we must simultaneously accelerate economic growth and transform the quality of that growth.
Our most effective weapon in the campaign against poverty is the creation of decent work, and creating work requires faster economic growth. Moreover, the challenges of poverty and inequality require that accelerated growth take place in the context of an effective strategy of redistribution that builds a new and more equitable growth path. On the matter of grants - as Mpumalanga, we are also culprits, because we have discovered that a number of our departments are not using the grants accordingly - as the committee and as the chair of that committee, we are going to make sure that we continue to monitor the departments.
We learnt, when the select committee visited us, that there are a lot of problems even as far as the municipalities are concerned, but their visit assisted us very much, because we now know that those who they have called in have a lot of problems. It shows us that others that have not been called by the select committee have also got a number of problems. That is why I am saying that we are going to make sure, as the committee in Mpumalanga, that we address the problems that are there. We will also make sure that the discretionary funds that are there are accounted for.
We appreciate that the monies allocated to the province will also be able to assist us because, as Mpumalanga, we are focusing on five major projects for the following years: the Maputo Development Corridor, the Moloto Development Corridor, the Water for All Programme, and the Greening Mpumalanga and Tourism initiatives. The rest of the money that is being allocated to us is going to assist us in making sure that we take these projects forward.
We believe that we are also going to be able to address issues raised by our people during our public hearings because people – like those from Limpopo - have complained about the inequitable allocation of grants that we are getting, because we were able to understand, as Mpumalanga, why we are getting fewer grants, which is because we don’t have the other specialising hospitals. However, we still have to report that people are feeling that the money is too little, Deputy Minister.
They are also feeling that the slow process of land restitution is impacting greatly on a number of people in a number of districts in our province, because the white people are now starting to do whatever they want about our people. So we are saying, if the process can be fast-tracked so that our people can get the better life that we are talking about, it would be very much appreciated.
We also appreciate the allocation for 2010 because we have started, in my province, with the fan parks. We are getting people ready for 2010. We take them now and then to the stadiums to make sure that they support the teams that are there.
Awu, komasipala bakithi, sithembisile-ke ukuthi sizokwenza isiqiniseko sokuthi kuyalunga. [Municipalities are not doing well, but we have promised to ensure that things get better.]
Chairperson, let me thank you for the time that you have given me. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Ms A N T MCHUNU: Chairperson, the Bill before the Council today divides national revenue between the three levels of government. In total, the Bill provides for R199 billion to be transferred to the provinces and R24 billion to be transferred to the local authorities. The IFP welcomes the increased allocations to these two levels of government, and we really thank the Minister and the Deputy Minister of Finance for being so helpful.
Much as the Budget may be good, it is a reality, however, that service delivery does not reach the poorest of the poor in the rural areas. We need more interventions from the relevant authorities, including us, to ensure that spending is stepped up and we need closer monitoring to ensure that allocations are in fact translated into basic services, improved infrastructure and other improvements in people’s daily lives.
The Northern Cape and North West are commended for including amakhosi and traditional areas in the IDPs, which are the lowest structures to cater for villages. In this way, people’s needs in rural areas will be accommodated and provincial treasuries will be able to capture that.
Let all villages in South Africa be listed and accommodated in the Budget so that poor people, who have the greatest need, benefit from it. A good example is the uThungulu District Municipality which requires R3 billion for water development and delivery because of its topography. It has mountains and hills and all that. So, quite a lot of money is needed.
South Africa cannot be a truly developmental state if it is not able to address shortages of electricity. Budget provision of R60 billion is crucial to rescue Eskom, but ordinary South Africans should not be further punished for failures of government or for a lack of vision. To expect South Africans to bear the brunt of an almost 60% increase in electricity tariffs will not assist in the war against poverty.
The generation of energy from other sources has to be fast-tracked so that Eskom can concentrate on industries.
Likewise electricity remains a priority in rural areas. Presently, every household has a cellular phone that needs to be charged. In some areas, it means travelling 50 km to town just to recharge a cellular phone. Other means of energy for cooking and lighting, e.g. gas and solar system, may be available. But then I discovered that the cellular phone issue is rather baffling. Those cellular phones are the means of communicating with clinics and hospitals, requesting ambulances and the police for crime situations. So, cellular phone charging has become a big issue in poor rural communities.
The Department for Agriculture and Land Affairs could help to reduce the poverty situation through the proper use of land. Thus the Comprehensive Agricultural Support Programme grant has to be pro-poor and properly spent. And we are grateful that there has been an increase also in that grant.
Farmers’ associations or clubs need to be assisted by agricultural extension officers on the ground in order to speed up small door-sized gardens in households and community gardens. Service delivery should not wait for MECs when extension officers are there to perform such menial jobs.
Co-operatives are ready to move towards commercial farming, but for now that has proved to be a disaster. This House proudly visited the Phezukomkhono Co-operative Farm in KwaZulu-Natal in 2006. The farm appeared to be progressing well, but today there is no sign that there was ever any agricultural activity. The KwaZulu-Natal department for agriculture is currently investigating the whole saga. Thank you. [Time expired.]
Mr W M DOUGLAS: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, the Constitution requires that nationally raised revenue must be evenly shared between national, provincial and local government and that this must be in line with their respective functions and fiscal competence. As we already know, these allocations, together with conditional grants to provinces and municipalities, are set out in the Division of Revenue Bill.
The ACDP would like to applaud the revenue authorities for collecting R15 billion more than the projected budget and target, with revenue estimated up to R580 billion for 2007-08.
Apart from the debt service costs and the contingency reserve, the allocated expenditure that is to be shared between the three spheres over each of the MTEF years are R552,9 billion, R618,5 billion and R673,5 billion.
The ACDP welcomes the increased allocations for provinces as there is a huge need for the improvement of education, public health care, welfare and housing programmes, as well as investment in roads, economic projects and tourism, agriculture and job creation under the Expanded Public Works Programme.
The ACDP shares the concerns of government regarding the capacity constraints. There is a vast lack of qualified employees in this country, especially engineers. We need to train, equip and educate more engineers and, in the short-term, bring back retired engineers or other skilled persons who can fill the gap.
The ACDP hopes that the public sector wage agreement and the occupation- specific dispensations for educators, social workers and nurses will attract and retain personnel in those sectors.
Additionally, the ACDP notes that there has been an increase in health personnel of 39 600 over the past four years and that a further 25 000 posts will be filled by 2010, which we are very happy with.
Provinces will also spend R18 billion over three years on school infrastructure and equipment - and we pray that this will go a long way to eliminating unsafe schools.
The ACDP trusts that these added allocations will allow municipalities to improve and speed up service delivery and to position host cities to meet obligations of the 2010 FIFA World Cup.
Finally, the ACDP shares the sentiment of the hon Minister that we are in this together and that we have a responsibility to ensure that the allocated funds attain the stated goals. The ACDP supports this Bill. [Applause.]
Ms L BROWN (Western Cape): Chairperson, the Western Cape supports the Division of Revenue Bill, 2008. Two issues were dealt with in the report to the NCOP, but seemingly it was misunderstood and I will address it here and now. Both these issues have since been discussed with the National Treasury and were more or less resolved.
Firstly, the Bill does not provide provinces with the powers to withhold provincial transfers to municipalities if a municipality does not comply with the conditions of the transfer, similar to what is provided for at a national level in clause 25 of the Bill.
Provinces could thus not stop allocations to municipalities in the event of a major breach of the conditions of a transfer, or when a municipality does not spend the money. In the absence of a legislative framework there were no measures enabling provinces to withhold and possibly reallocate these funds. Underspending, which constitutes nondelivery of services, could thus not adequately be addressed.
Hon members, we don’t want to take away the autonomy of local municipalities - that is not the idea. But, we are going to do what the hon chairperson of the committee says we must do, align our spending so that we don’t build a clinic and then not fix the road, we should not work in silos in terms of our departments, and in terms of local municipalities and the provinces. We would have the tools to actually hold municipalities accountable in the same way that National Treasury holds the provinces accountable and every department holds us accountable. This is public finance: It does not belong to any party or any individual but to the people that we want to serve – that is what we are trying to do.
We are trying to negate the possibility of nondelivery of services. The Western Cape has included the authority to withhold provincial transfers to municipalities in our Western Cape Appropriation Bill 2008, similar to the clauses in the Division of Revenue Bill. National Treasury has subsequently indicated that they are in agreement with this inclusion in the Appropriation Act of the province.
Our second recommendation is related to clause 28, and that was the unspent conditional allocations. Given the fact that the unspent cash pertaining to these allocations are normally available within the provincial revenue funds, and in order to streamline the roll-over approval and subsequent timely spending processes within provinces, it was recommended that clause 28 be amended to enable provincial treasuries to approve such roll-overs.
A further proposal was made that the uncommitted, unspent, conditional allocations be surrendered to the National Revenue Fund by 31 August each year, one month after the Auditor-General has completed its audit.
It is noted that the timeframes for processing the Bill is perhaps too advanced to consider such amendments and thus the Western Cape proposes to address the unspent conditional allocations clause at a technical level through the Technical Committee on Finance with regard to the implementation of this particular clause.
The national Minister of Finance, Mr Manuel, always asks the question: What does this Budget buy? The Western Cape has had R24 billion to spend during this financial year. We’ve managed to spend R1,4 and R1,5 billion respectively, in addition, on health and education. We managed to increase the housing budget to R1,2 billion.
I can go on and tell you that we have managed to ensure that R275 million will be spent on early childhood development. I can tell you that the budget has shifted from 74% for health, social service and education and to 26% on all the other sectors. But that is not the point - it is not what this budget buys but it is the quality of spending.
We really have to collectively think about the quality of the spending we have within our communities, whether it is the quality spending on housing or education. We are spending a large sum of money – we spent R9 billion in our province on education. The province does have a relatively good education plan and good outcomes in terms of education. But is that for all the students and peoples of the Western Cape? Are ordinary black, girl- children and rural children getting the same kind of education that we get in the leafy suburbs? And for me that is a big question. How do we spend that money equitably? What are the resources that we use to make sure that we monitor and evaluate how we spend that money?
So, it is not about the fact that we increased the housing budget but how we are spending that budget. What is the relationship between the largest municipality in the Western Cape and the provincial government to making sure that we spend collectively and that not everything becomes a political issue?
I wanted to come here today and say that I support the hon member Robinson. You see, hon members, the difficulty for me is the issue of capacity. It does not just rest with the provinces, it also rests with the municipalities. In fact, we had a situation on 28 February this year, where 21% was spent on capital budget to buy in the city and 43% or 44% was spent on the operating budget. [Interjections.]
We may easily politicise this thing but I think the big issue is, how do we make sure that we strengthen the levels and the spheres of government so that we are able to impact on our people’s lives efficiently and effectively as it should be a quality delivery.
So, it is evident that our concerns have been addressed in the one instance and can be addressed at a technical level in the other. For this reason, the Western Cape supports the Division of Revenue Bill.
From our side in the Western Cape, I want to express our absolute thanks to the Minister and the Deputy Minister for the Treasury staff at a national level - just for being able to hold hands and trying to make it better for every one in our provinces.
The chairperson of the select committee cannot believe how terrified we are of him in the provinces. [Laughter.] I like it. When we have to come to the select committee, we scatter; the departments talk to me and phone me late at night, before they have to come here. The point I am making is that unless our institutions are as effective as that we will never do the things that we are expected to do, that is, to provide a better quality of life for our people. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr E M SOGONI: Chairperson, Deputy Ministers, MEC, comrades and friends, in my previous life I used to recruit others. I myself was never really recruited. I appreciate being recruited sometimes. But I do not want people to distort what I say in meetings.
I really liked the hon Robinson input, except for one issue - which was about accreditation. I think the hon Robinson will know that the previous Division of Revenue Bill used that clause of accreditation. However, we need to ask ourselves whether that clause of accreditation has really assisted us in terms of what we wanted to achieve there, whether it has delivered or not. That is, if we are suggesting that it must come back. I just want to refer the hon member to some of the clauses that take care of this. Clause 10(6) of the Division of Revenue Bill says the National Transferring Officer must evaluate the performance of programmes funded or partially funded by allocation and submit such evaluations to National Treasury – that is in respect of the province four months after the end of the financial year, and in respect of the municipalities. It also says in clause 11(3) that the receiving officer in a province must submit, as part of the report required in terms of section 44(4)(c) of the Public Finance Management Act, reports to the relevant provincial treasury on spending and performance against programmes.
Clause 12(2) says a report by a province in terms of subsection 1(a) must set out for that month and for that financial year up to the end of that month the amount received by the province, the amount of funds stopped or withheld from the province and the actual expenditure by the province in respect of a Schedule 5 allocation.
Let us consider clause 39, which is about the planning. It says from October the receiving officer of an infrastructure grant to provinces must, by 30 June 2008, submit detailed infrastructural plans in a format determined by National Treasury to the provincial treasury. There is no need for us to panic about the fact that the particular clause is in there. There are checks and balances. This one will say if a municipality or an entity has to receive these funds it must produce proof that it can spend and that it has expended those funds. In this case, that clause did not really assist us. That is why, for us, it is not really an issue.
Hon Mrs Mchunu is saying that in the rural areas there is a great need for cellular phones. Well, I think it is a good thing that people should have cellular phones. I think we do applaud her. However, we are not looking at the other side. We have the cellular phones and there are no Telkom landlines in those rural areas which do not have access to computers and other things. In other words, we are encouraging continued deprivation of the rural communities of access to computers. I am not sure if that is what we want to support here, but surely the ANC will not support the continued deprivation of our communities in the rural areas.
The MEC says the people in the rural areas must have the same access to resources as those people in the urban areas who have access to both cellular phones and landlines. I think that is the problem which some of us do not look at in its broader context.
What I would like to add is that municipalities are at the coalface of service delivery. The community survey released by Statistics South Africa in October 2007 indicated that 89% of households had access to water from the end of February 2007 as compared to only 62% in 1994. Another 89% today have access to sanitation, that was from the end of February 2007, as compared to only 50% in 1994, whereas at the end of February 2007 we were speaking of 87% which had access. Again, 80% also have access to electricity today as compared to 51% in 1999.
Chairperson, before you tell me that my time has expired, it is important to indicate that the ANC supports this Bill, and would like to urge this House to support it in order to ensure that our people in the rural areas also have access to quality service delivery. I thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson, one of the things that we learnt from the Eastern philosophers is, basically, doing more with less. That is the ingenuity of people. The second aspect of it is winning wars without fighting. I think the Ministers of Finance, globally, have been striving throughout the ages to basically understand this genius of doing more with less. That is one of the things you will see in every budget, because there is never ever enough for everything.
In fact, those of us who have read the Bible, who are of Christian faith, would understand that it is through the miracle of the seven loaves and two pieces of fish that the multitudes were fed. Hence it is called a miracle. Those are some of the things that we should understand. How do we ensure that departments and government entities at different spheres are able to do more with less? Hence there is this issue around value for money.
A number of hon members have raised the whole issue of whether we are spending properly. My colleague from the Western Cape, MEC Brown, basically raised this issue that if we allocate resources to administer or provide services, are we really able to monitor and ensure that the policies of this government are fulfilled through that spending? This is one of the biggest tasks confronting Parliament in general, but specifically the NCOP. As you said earlier on, the NCOP has acquitted itself very well in ensuring that the issue is value for money.
I also want to talk a little bit about the issues around conditional grants. I had the honour and the rare opportunity to serve on two sides of the spectrum. I was MEC of Finance and Economic Affairs in Gauteng for 10 years and now I have the honour of being the Deputy Minister of Finance. The issue of conditional grants has always been an issue that is characterised by a whole range of debates and tension, tension from the provinces that ask why it is that we prescribe around the whole issue of the detail, in terms of administration of spending and also of administering these conditional grants. Because I have had the opportunity of being on the other side of the spectrum, I understand that one of the instruments, as the members of the NCOP have indicated, of ensuring that there is targeted spending is to deal with specific priorities of government at any given period. This is one such instrument to ensure that we are able to earmark certain resources for specific activities and for specific service delivery functions. That is one of the key things of these conditional grants, but the debate and the discussions around the best way of administering these conditional grants is indeed an ongoing matter.
I was quite taken aback by the example mentioned by hon Mchunu around the rural areas. One of the things from her input that clearly indicates that times are changing and that the digital age is upon us, is the whole issue around the importance of connectivity. We should not undermine that. It means people are able to reach family and friends wherever they are, because they move around with this connectivity in their pockets. Hence it becomes a priority to charge that connectivity.
It is one of the challenges that the hon Sogoni also indicated, that the key thing is that there is this competition between fixed lines and wireless connections. It is a big competition that Telkom is confronting. At the end of the day, even with my computer, I no longer need a fixed line to access the Internet. This is a big competition. In fact, in the rural areas you will find that the wireless connections are much more cost- effective than fixed lines. That is one of the things I think our key parastatals are looking at.
I have no quarrel with the issues raised by the hon Ms Robinson. You did, however, raise the important issue of increasing public participation in the Budget process. It is indeed important, but I just want to remind everyone what it is that we do in the National Treasury to increase this public participation: Firstly, there is Tips for Trevor, to ensure that more and more ordinary citizens are able to write to the Minister of Finance about their ideas. We all know that the Minister of Finance draws inspiration and also takes some of these written submissions quite seriously. In all his Budget Speeches he makes specific reference to Tips for Trevor.
Secondly, one of the most important engagements is engaging with the representatives of the people. Those are found in the NA and in the NCOP. Our democracy assumes that Members of Parliament basically represent beyond just themselves. They represent the inspirations, the fears and dreams of our people. Hence, when the Budget is debated in the NA or in the NCOP, it is an important engagement with our people, not just with a few members who sit around on benches. Broadly, they also represent a specific constituency out there. That is an important mechanism.
Thirdly, there is our engagement with Nedlac. Nedlac is a forum where labour and government meet. That is where we engage with a whole range of stakeholders and with the community to deal with Budget matters. Therefore, I would like to ask a question, because it is also in the interests, of government to increase this public participation: What else do we need to do, given the time limitations that we have? That is one of the things that are important to do, so that when we make a recommendation it is also important to come up with possible solutions. We are always open to deal with the issues that are raised. It is through “Siyimbumba”. [We are one.]
My colleague from Mpumalanga raised an issue around the fact that too few farms are allocated. That is why I am saying it is an issue of seven loaves. One of the things we should also be raising around the resources is to a large extent an ability to prioritise and also to ensure that the little resources that we have, have the biggest of impacts and also understanding our own specific circumstances. Hence it is our view that, at the provincial level, that is, when we talk about the provincial needs, the provincial sphere is quite important in dealing with some of these very important areas around service delivery.
I would like to thank all the members that have participated for their contributions in this debate. Without any exceptions, the Division of Revenue Bill was supported. Everybody has also supported its provisions, but also important is that that has also been informed by the deliberations in this very House. People did not just come together because they like Treasury or they like the Minister of Finance and therefore they support whatever he says and what he provides. It is because this House has interacted with the different spheres of government and developed an in- depth understanding, through its own oversight, in terms of what needs to be done and what it is in this Division of Revenue Bill that seeks to address the most important question: improving the lives of our people. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): That concludes the debate. I shall now put the question. The question is that the Bill be agreed to. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their province’s votes.
In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces an opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they are voting in favour or against, or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?
Mr M O ROBERTSEN: Eastern Cape supports.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): Free State?
Mr T S RALANE: Supports.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): Gauteng?
Mr E M SOGONI: Siyaxhasa. [We support.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): KwaZulu-Natal?
Mr Z C NTULI: In favour.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): Limpopo?
Ms H F MATLANYANE: Ondersteun. [We support.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant):Mpumalanga?
Ms M P THEMBA: Mpumalanga supports.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): Northern Cape?
Mr C M GOEIEMAN: Supports.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): North West?
Mr Z C KOLWENI: Ke ya rona. [We support.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): Western Cape?
Mr N J MACK: Ondersteun. [We support.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M N Oliphant): All provinces have voted in favour. I therefore declare the Bill agreed to in terms of section 65 of the Constitution.
Thank you, Deputy Minister, but we are still proceeding with the business of the day. You may sit and observe our proceedings, as we appreciate your presence, but if you are forced by circumstances, you are free to leave. Thank you very much.
NATIONAL GAMBLING AMENDMENT BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Chairperson, hon members, members of the press and the public in the gallery, I’m honoured to participate in the Second Reading debate of the National Gambling Amendment Bill of 2008 in the National Council of Provinces today. In doing so, I’m fulfilling my obligations in terms of the National Gambling Act of 2004, which requires the Minister of Trade and Industry to introduce to Parliament legislation for the regulation of interactive gambling and to do so by way of an amendment to the National Gambling Act.
The current reality is that some of our citizens are participating in online gambling in South Africa, but the environment in which this is taking place is unregulated. This piece of legislation is therefore being introduced to protect consumers against the various risks and dangers such as addiction and problem gambling that take place within an unregulated environment.
After the draft Bill was approved by Cabinet in December 2006, written comments were received from stakeholders and the department held several public consultation meetings. The draft Bill was then introduced in the National Assembly on 26 July 2007. The Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry held public hearings leading to the adoption by that committee.
Against this background, it is a pleasure for me to now introduce the debate on the National Gambling Amendment Bill after deliberations by the Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs, as well as provincial legislatures. The Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs adopted the Bill on 12 March 2008, after receiving final mandates from provinces indicating their respective views on the Bill. With your permission, Chairperson, I wish to use this opportunity to express my heartfelt gratitude to both the select committee and the provincial legislatures for their excellent advice that contributed to the further strengthening of this Bill, thereby improving its quality.
The debate in the select committee was primarily focused on the socioeconomic impact of gambling in general. The concerns raised by hon members and members of the public relating to problem gambling, exposure to gambling by minors and vulnerable groups and the facilitation of money laundering, among others, are all valid concerns. They confirm the view that we must extend protection and ensure an effective regulatory environment to rein in unbecoming behaviour by operators.
As such, this amending Bill should be viewed as “public interest protection” legislation as it seeks to, among others, protect consumers against the overstimulation of gambling, protect our jurisdiction against criminal elements involved in money laundering and create a safe environment for those who desire to participate in gambling activities as a pastime.
In order to achieve the goal of creating a safe and protected environment, the Bill addresses the issues of player protection, problem gambling, advertising, money laundering, enforcement and compliance, licensing, provision of interactive gambling games and others, such as taxation.
Allow me to touch briefly on some of these aspects. With respect to player protection, the Bill provides that each and every player who engages in interactive gambling be registered with a licensed interactive gambling provider. Strict verification procedures that are compliant with the Financial Intelligence Centre Act and in a prescribed form will need to be complied with. Verification procedures, such as attaining a sworn statement
- in a prescribed form -that a player is 18 years or older and that the jurisdiction in which they reside does not prohibit interactive gambling, will ensure that minors do not have access to interactive gambling.
In addition, credit providers will not be allowed to extend credit to players and there will be a dispute resolution mechanism for recourse where disputes arise. The Bill will make any gambling activity provided by an unlicensed provider unlawful and will prohibit South African players from engaging in interactive gambling activities with unlicensed providers.
One of the key fears with regard to interactive gambling is its round-the- clock accessibility and availability. This ease of access makes potential problem gambling a serious concern. The Bill, therefore, provides that an interactive gambling service provider will be required through licensing conditions and regulations to ensure that there is an electronic system for the monitoring and reporting of registered players. Players will be required to set limits on accounts. The principle of “know your customer” will apply and providers will be required to audit playing patterns and behaviour. Players will be exposed to self-diagnosis systems and notices on the websites of interactive gambling service providers in respect of voluntary player exclusion and treatment of addictive gambling in accordance with the objects of the National Responsible Gambling Programme.
With regard to advertising, hon members would recall that advertising interactive gambling was prohibited in terms of the Bill as amended by the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry. However, after concerns with the discriminatory nature and therefore the constitutionality of the prohibition, the select committee deemed it prudent to amend the Bill to reintroduce advertising, albeit under very strict conditions and subject to regulations prescribed by the Minister. Unlicensed operators, however, will not be allowed to advertise interactive gambling anywhere in the republic.
As far as money-laundering is concerned, the Bill will be governed by the requirements of the Financial Intelligence Centre Act. One of the main thrusts of the provisions on money-laundering is that the Bill requires that gambling equipment, which includes the server and other key records of players’ transactions, be located in South Africa. This requires all licensed interactive providers to have a presence in South Africa. This will also be in line with the existing company law. Key aspects, such as the registration of players and verification of player identity, as well as allowing players from selected countries that comply with the Financial Action Task Force or designate organisations only to engage in interactive gambling licensed in the Republic will apply.
Other control measures include the requirement that service providers may not convert any funds in a player account into any other form of value, thereby limiting opportunities for money laundering. The interactive gambling service provider has an obligation to report suspicious and illegal activities. The provision for control systems will be prescribed in the regulations to ensure compliance.
With regard to enforcement and compliance and given the borderless nature of interactive gambling, it is our view that the enforcement and the administration of this Bill should be at a national level. In support of that principle, the National Gambling Board is the competent institution to ensure compliance with the National Gambling Amendment Bill and conditions of license. The board will be required to supervise and enforce compliance by licensees with the Financial Intelligence Centre Act requirements.
It will be expected of the National Gambling Board to conduct inspections in respect of interactive gambling websites and premises where equipment and software are located. The National Gambling Board may revoke or suspend licenses for noncompliance, and as part of corporate governance may delegate some of its enforcement and compliance powers to the provincial licensing authorities.
As already alluded to, the Bill provides for the licensing of interactive gambling and these licenses are to be issued as national licenses due to the borderless nature of the activity. The types of licenses provided for in clause 26 of the Bill relate to operators, manufacturers, suppliers or maintenance providers of interactive gambling software and equipment.
Finally, there are a number of other important provisions. In this regard, the Bill will provide for the imposition of taxation, which will be catered for in a separate process that involves National Treasury and the Minister of Finance. It is our view that taxation will be optimised to create a level playing field, and at the same time be used to curb the proliferation of gambling.
Furthermore, it is important to note that interactive gambling will not be treated differently from land-based casinos and other forms of gambling, in terms of licensing conditions and other requirements. I must also highlight that due to the nature of this form of gambling and the advent of technology, among other reasons, a lot of detail will be provided for in the regulations.
In conclusion, let me once again thank the Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs for their guidance and support in aiding us to steer the legislation in the right direction. I also wish to extend a word of gratitude to other government departments, key stakeholders in the industry, civil society, our provincial counterparts and members of the public in general for their inputs into these amendments and for their commitment to ensuring that this Bill is appropriate and effective. I commend this Bill to the Chamber. Thank you. [Applause.] Nksz N D NTWANAMBI: Sihlalo, Mphathiswa obekekileyo, malungu abekekileyo, namaqabane abekekileyo, ukuba besisesikolweni ngekuba ndithi ukhona lo mntu ukukrobisileyo, ngoba uninzi lweenkxalabo zethu uzichaphazele kwintetho yakho. Ngoko ke imibuzo yethu ebimininzi iyakutsho inciphe. Mhlawumbi iza kunceda namanye amaphondo ebengekaqondi. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[Ms N D NTWANAMBI: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, hon comrades, if we were at school, I would say that someone had allowed you to copy, because you have touched on most of our concerns in your speech. Therefore, our questions, which were many, have been reduced. Maybe, this will help other provinces, which have not yet understood.]
The Bill that is before the House now is not something new, as the Minister has said. It was debated three years ago, but it came back for amendments. Our committee agreed to the Bill with the amendments we have proposed. I must also say that of the nine provinces only seven voted in favour. Limpopo rejected the Bill, North West did not send its final mandate when we had our last mandate, and that was in North West, but constitutionally the Bill has been agreed to. We have a concern though – as I said, Minister – that even some micro loan finance banks, or “mashonisas”, offer credit cards. We do not have to mention them by name.
Andizi kuba namali xa benokuthi mandibahlawule ngoku, ngenxa yokubachaza kwam apha, kodwa ke yinkxalabo yethu le yokuba nabanye oomatshonisa ngoku banamakhadi etyala. [I will not have the money, if they were to say I should pay them now, because of my mentioning them here, but it is our concern that some of the moneylenders now have credit cards.]
I must also mention that, as the committee, we are concerned about gambling, particularly, because poor people always have this hope of winning a big prize or millions of rand.
Njengabantu abacula umthandazo weNkosi yonke le mihla, sifuna ukungangeniswa ekuhendweni. Nathi masizincede singabi ngabantu abazikhohlisayo, sisinde nakwezinye izinto esingazi kukwazi ukuzenzela zona. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[As people who sing the Lord’s Prayer everyday, we do not want to be led into temptation. We should help ourselves and not be people who delude themselves; and be saved from other things we would not be able to do ourselves.]
We want you, Minister, to include limits in the regulations, whether it is interactive gambling or land-based, as you have said. We also suggest that gambling sites be monitored, now and again, to caution gamblers on the dangers of gambling. We say this because many gamblers get so hooked that, sometimes, they are unable to free themselves. It might also be wise that, whenever one puts the card in the slot machines, big letters appear, informing one of the dangers associated with gambling habits.
The Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs supports the Bill with amendments.
Chairperson, I want to take this opportunity to thank members of the Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs for all the support and respect they gave me. I also wish to extend my gratitude to them because, when I was ill, they prayed for me. I also want to assure them that I am still a member of the committee and, though I might not be chairing it in future, I am still a member of it. I thank you. [Applause.]
Ms J F TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, the purpose of the National Gambling Amendment Bill is to amend the National Gambling Act of 2004, and to provide for the regulation of interactive gambling, so as to protect society against the assimilation of the demand for gambling. Currently interactive gambling provides little or no protection of players and there is uncontrolled exposure to minors, as well as persons vulnerable to gambling. Furthermore, the situation has resulted in a loss of revenue to the fiscus.
Interaktiewe dobbel is alle vorme van afstandsdobbel wat plaasvind via die internet of ander verwante vorme van telekommunikasie. Deur die voorgestelde wysigings aan die wet sal spelers moet registreer en kan spelers ook verhinder word om te speel. Indien dispute ontstaan tussen spelers en interaktiewe dobbelspelverskaffers kan dit opgelos word deur die Nasionale Dobbelraad.
’n Verdere welkome wysiging is die verbod op die adverteer van interaktiewe dobbel. Die DA steun hierdie wysigingswetontwerp sodat daar regulering kan kom in hierdie spesifieke vorm van dobbel. Baie dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Interactive gambling includes all kinds of gambling which take place via the Internet or other related forms of telecommunication. Through the proposed amendments to the Act, players would have to register and players could also be barred from playing. If a dispute arises between the players and the interactive gambling providers, it can be resolved through the National Gambling Board.
A further welcome amendment is the prohibition on the advertising of interactive gambling. The DA supports this amending Bill so that there can be regulation in respect of this particular form of gambling. Thank you.]
Mr W M DOUGLAS: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members, the ACDP strongly objects to the National Gambling Amendment Bill. This Bill was supposedly proposed specifically as a way to prevent crime and to protect players, problem gamblers and the underage and as an alternative to the currently completely unregulated environment.
The fact is that gambling in general does exactly the opposite of this. It creates more gamblers, addicts and helps crime to escalate by creating people who are desperate and who have to steal to support their habit.
Exploitation of the poor is not acceptable under any name or under any circumstance, especially not for profit. And, this particular thing, gambling, whether interactive or any other way, takes the food out of the mouths of children and of babies every single day. Fathers gamble their salaries away and they do not provide for their children.
Gambling is destructive and will not contribute to effective nation- building and this is becoming more evident daily. It is being proven that gambling is unprofitable and cannot be defended in terms of benefiting the economy.
This new gambling culture encourages greediness and instantaneous gratification and undermines family life, the need to study, delayed consumption and parsimony. Gambling is a direct attack on the family and promotes prostitution, money laundering, gangsters, drug and liquor abuse, as well as divorce and abuse of women and children. This is a serious issue which government should not make light of. And how does gambling and all its ill effects socially create a better life for all? It does not.
A few years ago Blade Nzimande said, and I quote:
Gambling was undermining the struggle to eradicate poverty in South Africa and we call on government to review gambling and the lottery as these further impoverish the poor.
Also, this idea that gambling creates jobs is unsubstantiated. The lottery does not create wealth, rather it consumes it. If people did not spend money on gambling, they would spend on something creating more useful jobs in other sectors. Gambling encourages people to take chances and not to work hard, hence the ACDP wants to see a culture of hard work cultivated within our country.
Gambling contributes to poverty through the perception of a quick remedy, whether it is through marketing or simple desperation on the part of those gamblers.
The ACDP supports the statements made by Ben Turok, and I quote:
When you have a relative evil in society either we legislate to prohibit it or curb it, you don’t legislate to encourage it.
To conclude, gambling, whether on the Internet or in the casino, is evil and must be done away with entirely. It eats away at the moral fibre of society. This Bill is not morally justifiable. Thank you.
Mr G STRACHAN (Western Cape): Good afternoon, Acting Chairperson, Minister Mpahlwa and hon members, it is my privilege on behalf of the Western Cape Provincial Legislature to rise in support of the National Gambling Amendment Bill. We wish to place on record our appreciation to the staff and all those, including the hon members, who have worked so hard to fine- tune the Bill.
As we all know, gambling regulation is about ensuring that gambling activity is conducted in an environment of fairness and protection. I want to say that what we’ve just heard from the hon member from the ACDP is what we hear a lot in the provincial legislature: blame and complaints and very few solutions being offered.
It is interesting to hear a person of faith agreeing with the general secretary of the Communist Party. But, I think he should be very careful in misquoting Blade Nzimande.
What does the ACDP want - a ban on all gambling which will force it underground, force it into the hands of organised crime, and do away with any possibility of regulating an industry which we know has negative socioeconomic consequences which have to be ameliorated? This Bill seeks to ameliorate those negative and unintended consequences. It is easy to shout from the rooftops when you are a small opposition party. It is much more difficult to run the economy and the government of the country in a realistic way. So, let’s get real.
We in the province had strong reservations about the Bill in its original form and because we value democracy and a strong exchange of ideas, we made no bones about that in our negotiating mandate. But, the Western Cape legislature, with the exception of the hon colleagues from the ACDP, is encouraged by the proposed amendments to the Bill. The Bill, as the hon Minister said, has been strengthened to provide for stronger regulation of interactive gambling and against the stimulation of the demand for gambling, the registration of players and the opening of player accounts, the conditions applicable to interactive gambling licences, and the protection of minors and other persons vulnerable to the negative effects of gambling. It is impossible to close every single loophole in that regard, and stronger measures are required for the prevention of gambling and its association with money laundering, as it had been mentioned, to try to secure compliance with the Financial Intelligence Centre Act legislation.
The province made substantial input into the processes that led to the finalisation of the Bill, which included comments on the interim report commissioned by the National Gambling Board on Internet gambling in South Africa and its implications, costs and opportunities. As you may also be aware this research report, published by the National Academic Centre for Research into Gaming, investigated the parameters within which Internet gaming should be legalised in South Africa and it forms the basis from which this Bill was crafted.
I shall not go into all the details of the inputs we made, save to say that we agree, or we would suggest that the regulation of Internet gambling is no small project. As it is rolled out and implemented, it will include the potential of abuse by end users. We also agree that it is important to do it right the first time, as the second time might not be so effective and there may be numerous unintended consequences.
Thirdly, we must ensure that the industry for which we will be responsible has been correctly positioned in the market but, more importantly, that our standard of regulation applicable to other forms of gambling such as LPMs, casinos and horseracing is not compromised. This implies not only that the use of the product should be attractive to consumers, but also that the integrity of the product, including the mechanisms to be used to process the delivery of that product, should be beyond question and able to withstand the practical rigours of everyday gambling activity.
With respect to advertising and the protection of children and other vulnerable persons, the Western Cape welcomes the further amendments to the Bill. Advertising for interactive gambling has now been restricted, a move we think requires further research, for the following reasons: In this province our license operators are spending very large amounts of money to advertise licensed gaming establishments on the radio, the print media, the outdoors and other forms of promotion. Is this huge advertising, on those forms of gambling, in sync with what we are doing in relation to interactive gambling, Minister Mpahlwa?
Lastly, we are of the opinion that allowing the regulation of Internet gambling in South Africa is likely to receive opposition, especially from land-based casino licensees who may call for protection. They may argue, and there have been signs in this regard that they may have made significant investments in this country in return for the exclusive rights to operate casinos and to benefit from the revenue streams which these activities generate. These concerns will have to be carefully managed and balanced against the socioeconomic goals, policy objectives and regulation imperatives that government is pursuing.
In conclusion, the issue of taxation remains a vexing point. It is important that provinces protect their… I am not sure whether someone with a better command of English will help me here, whether the plural of fiscus is fiscii or fiscuses. Provinces have to protect their revenue base and guard against revenue loss. The Bill in its current format incorporates a provision that, I quote, “tax in respect of interactive gambling activities will be imposed in terms of appropriate legislation”. You may agree that this is risky and can mean anything for provinces.
At worst their current revenue base from gambling activities may be at risk. Careful consideration should be given in our opinion, and when the money Bill is crafted, in particular. I am mandated therefore to propose that the money Bill be crafted carefully in consultation with provincial treasuries. I thank you. [Applause.]
Ms M P THEMBA: Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members, you must forgive the hon Douglas because he wasn’t actually present in most cases when it was explained to us how interactive gambling would work.
Chair, the National Gambling Amendment Bill seeks to establish a lawful basis for the provision, regulation and control of interactive gambling within our country. I wasn’t going to read my speech, but just so that you can get what it is really about, I am going to go through the whole speech.
We need to provide authorised forms of electronic communication for the purpose of interactive gambling. In so doing, we create a space to provide authorised interactive gambling in games systems and methods.
The main purpose of the Bill deals specifically with the exclusion of person-to-person betting exchange. Therefore, the Bill enhances the proper identification of players. Furthermore, it needs to record the identity, address and account information of players for protection purposes.
In-order control systems include the plan of organisation and procedures that are dealing with the safeguarding of assets and the reliability of financial records. This emphasises the fact that there must be no segregation or incompatible functions so that no employee is in a position to perpetrate and conceal errors or irregularities in the normal course of their duties.
One of the major strategies that are used in each control system is logistical, physical and information security. This includes approved programmes, applications, operating systems and databases, in order to be able to ensure data integrity, accuracy and completeness of data, particularly with regard to using credit cards. It strengthens the fact that there is one aspect of protecting people from being exploited by this system. We must reflect clearly that, in this country, we must have laws that protect our people from exploitation. We must realise that the main purpose of having these laws in gambling is to eliminate the involvement of people in gambling.
We have people who are already victims of gambling – their lives are destroyed by gambling – so we are fighting criminal activities that are taking place through gambling in South Africa in order to protect the next generation. In so doing, the whole process of licensing must be transparent, fair and open to allow new players in the industry.
In essence, this Bill’s main focus can be looked at from an angle where it looks upon prevention of organised crime and puts more emphasis on the protection of our constitutional democracy against terrorism. This Bill needs to look, in particular, at capacitating or guarding socioeconomic development trends in this country in all spheres of government for economic development purposes.
I must state clearly that, as the ANC, we are clear at the end of the day that there are challenges that would need us to be alert, act consciously, and have political management over them. Let me reflect that there are three fundamental challenges that we need to give more attention to. We need to look at the role this Bill will play with regard to economic development, facilitation of technological upgrading and sustainable human settlement and its impact on the transport system.
In conclusion, the above-mentioned challenges are not something new. What we need to do is to strengthen our muscle within the economic cluster to facilitate co-operation with regard to the various economic challenges. There is also a need for greater co-operation between government departments to deal with these matters in a progressive manner.
It has been one of the ANC’s major strengths to deal with major challenges within our society in a constructive manner. We have been successful and managed, in doing so, to progressively bring about a strong growing economy in order to facilitate development in different spheres of our government. As the ANC, we support the National Gambling Amendment Bill. Thank you. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Chairperson, hon members, thank you for your participation in the debate. Of course, I think that the very nature of this subject will always produce conflicting views and will always produce a heated debate.
I want to begin by addressing myself to some of the issues that were raised by the hon Douglas from the ACDP. I am quite sure that - as impassioned a representation as was made when, as this Parliament, we considered the issues of how, as a country, we want to deal with the issue of gambling - at that time, part of the exercise was to weigh what the best direction to take is to deal with the legalisation of gambling, creating an environment in which you can regulate it, and protecting a society and people who would like to participate in gambling, or having to deal with the challenges of an illegal dispensation for which you then have to find the most effective ways of how best to regulate that.
I think that as a country we made the choice in 1998 when the legislation on gambling was drafted, debated and adopted by Parliament. So, what we are doing today must be seen not as our having a fresh debate around whether or not we should have gambling as a legal activity in South Africa, but whether we are actually completing the process that was initiated then. At the time when the main legislation was drafted, debated and adopted, it just proved too difficult also to deal with the issue of Internet gambling. Therefore, a provision was built into the legislation to say, within two years of the main legislation being enacted, an amendment must be introduced that would then deal with the issue of Internet gambling. This is what we are doing today.
I felt like asking the hon Douglas whether he watches any movies, because movies and artistic productions – whether in the form of music or paintings – are things that reflect our reality. Artists are people that recreate our reality and make us look at ourselves. One of the things that you see when you watch some of these artistic productions, where an environment of illegal gambling is portrayed in a movie or a book, is the violence that goes with that in an uncontrolled environment. If you have watched the movie City of God, you’ll know that the level of violence that you see there is something totally unthinkable. You just can’t contend with the kind of violence that is to be found in certain parts of the underworld. So, I am saying the choices that we have to make also have to contend with some of that kind of reality.
I was also reminded, as the hon Douglas was addressing us, of the legislation on the choice on termination of pregnancy. The fact that we pilot legislation like that doesn’t mean that, as people or as an organisation, we promote the issue of termination of pregnancy, but rather that we recognise that many young lives are lost in backstreet abortions that happen. So, in doing this, we are creating a safer environment within which this has to happen and we also say, at the same time, have education programmes that teach young people to protect themselves if they do want to engage in this kind of activity. These are things that must be properly understood and contextualised. I was reminded of all of those things as I was listening to the hon Douglas.
Further, let me say to the hon Ntwanambi that the issues around uMatshonisa and credit cards are matters that we have to deal with in terms of the National Credit Act. That is the primary legislation through which we seek to regulate and control that activity that takes place between a financial institution of whatever kind and a borrower that approaches it.
Through that legislation, we impose certain behaviours on the part of both borrowers and lenders, because it is important for the lender to also have a better understanding of the circumstances of the borrower so that you are able to make a decision or a judgment on the level of credit that that borrower can actually sustain. We equally impose certain obligations on the borrower himself or herself to provide correct and true information to the potential lender.
So, it is in terms of that that we have to regulate on issues about the issuing of credit cards and the extension of credit to borrowers. However, the proliferation of plastic money is a matter of concern in our society, and we are just suggesting that it is through that legislation that we should try to deal with it.
Of course, we already do it in this legislation, and we will do so also in the regulations. We are dealing with the issues of how we create protection. There is the issue, for instance, about limits. Already, we are saying that there will have to be limits on accounts by players. There will have to be electronic monitoring systems that will register the playing patterns and behaviour, and there will have to be notices on the screens that alert people to the issues of gambling problems and that there are remedies. You can go for treatment or you can embark on a voluntary withdrawal from participation. So, those are things that are already catered for. They will be strengthened when we introduce the regulations.
I think, on the issue of advertising that was raised by the hon Strachan we are willing to do further research to look deeper into this issue, but I think that part of the attempt – I think in the earlier stages – was to prohibit this, and this is something which arose because of the nature of this activity. You see, if one walks into a casino, people see you physically going into a casino, and even the people that work there would be able to identify that this person is here every day and this person, whenever he or she enters this premises, only leaves this place when their last cent has been swallowed by the machine. They can even begin to notice changes in the behaviour of the person, but with Internet gambling you can sit in your own little corner at home and nobody sees you.
So, it is because of the nature of the activity that, I think, there was a feeling that you have got to outlaw advertising in terms of this type of gambling. Of course, we had to contend with the issues that were correctly identified by this House which was to say that: Will this stand the test of constitutionality if you say you prohibit advertisements for Internet gambling when you actually allow advertising for other forms of gambling?
So, one would hope that the dispensation is one that is equitable, albeit one that also seeks to deal with the fact that this is a very specific type of gambling. We are willing to look further at that issue so that we can see, when we do the regulations, if there are things that we can do that would help us to strengthen where we need to strengthen and so on. Thank you for that intervention.
I think, regarding the issue of taxation, we would have to look at the experience also in terms of the main Gambling Act in relation to the land- based casinos because, as we have the dispensation currently, provinces are able to generate revenue from the fact that they license casinos. I think that we would have to adopt, perhaps, the same kind of approach. We would certainly also, as the Department of Trade and Industry, be having a particularly keen interest, as Treasury would be dealing with that legislation.
Let me thank all of the members. I think I have dealt with most of the issues. I had hoped that I could respond to some of the issues you raised, but thank you very much to everybody. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): That concludes the debate. I shall now put the question. The question is that the Bill be agreed to. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their province’s vote.
In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. Is there any province that wants to make a declaration? In the absence of any we shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour, or against, or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?
Mr D G MKONO: Oos-Kaap ondersteun. [We support.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Free State?
Mr T S RALANE: Ondersteun. [We support.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Gauteng?
Mr E M SOGONI: Siyaxhasa. [We support.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): KwaZulu-Natal?
Mr Z C NTULI: Ondersteun. [We support.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Limpopo?
Ms H F MATLANYANE: Limpopo e ganana le yona. [Limpopo does not support.] The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Mpumalanga?
Ms M P THEMBA: Mpumalanga supports.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Northern Cape?
Mr C M GOEIEMAN: Ons gryp hom vas, Meneer. [We support.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): North West?
Mr Z S KOLWENI: North West in favour.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Hon members, on record there is a statement that was made earlier, unless I am misguided, hon Chief Whip, that Limpopo is objecting and North West has no final mandate. So, I don’t know, hon member, can I get your guidance on the matter? How do you vote when you do not have a final mandate?
Mr Z S KOLWENI: Chairperson, I have contacted the authorities. I got their permission that I must vote in favour. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Hon members, this is a very tricky issue. I cannot count North West. I will make a ruling, because I do not want to set an incorrect precedent on such a substantive procedural issue. On that basis I really want to waive North West. We will make a ruling as to whether its vote can be counted on this particular issue, or not. Can I then proceed to the Western Cape?
Mr N J MACK: Die Wes-Kaap ondersteun. [The Western Cape supports.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): On that basis we have seven provinces that have voted in favour. Limpopo has voted against and we have excluded North West. I therefore declare the Bill agreed to in terms of section 65 of the Constitution. [Applause.]
Bill accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT LAWS AMENDMENT BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson and hon members, at the extended Cabinet lekgotla in January 2006, the national government together with the Premiers and the SA Local Government Association, Salga, adopted the Five-Year Local Government Strategic Agenda from 2006-2011.
Three strategic priorities were adopted to define the nature of our work in strengthening our overall system of local government. These priorities were: firstly, mainstreaming hands-on support to local government to improve municipal governance, performance and accountability; secondly, addressing the structure and governance arrangements of the state in order to better strengthen, support and monitor local government; and lastly, refining and strengthening the policy, regulatory and fiscal environment for local government and giving greater attention to the enforcement measures.
Today, the Local Government Laws Amendment Bill before this House must be seen as part of our implementation of the third strategic priority, which is about refining and strengthening the policy, regulatory and fiscal environment for local government. Refining the policy environment for local government is an intrinsic part of the commitment on the part of the Department of Provincial and Local Government to ensure that local government delivers services to the people. The Local Government Laws Amendment Bill of 2007 is one important step in this direction. As you may be aware, other processes will also follow. For example, the House will be aware that a significant policy review of provincial and local government is currently underway under the stewardship of the Department of Provincial and Local Government.
In general, the Local Government Laws Amendment Bill effects amendments that refine, adjust and align core local government legislation, such as the Local Government: Municipal Demarcation Act of 1998, the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act of 1998, the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act of 2000 and the Local Government: Municipal Property Rates Act of 2003. It also repeals legislation that has become redundant.
The policy intentions of the amendments contained in the Bill serve to, among others, specifically improve fiscal alignment, planning and budgeting; promote the uniform interpretation and application of the law; enhance performance management in local government; further refine and remove impediments in the implementation of municipal property rates; promote practices in good governance; and ensure alignment of legislation pertaining to local government.
The Department of Provincial and Local Government welcomes the additional amendment adopted by the Select Committee on Local Government and Administration that strengthens the role of ward committees in public participation. The Bill that was presented to the select committee provided for a significant improvement of the role of the ward committee to further deepen democracy, and community involvement in local development projects.
The select committee has added to this improvement by now making it possible for the members of the ward committee to elect their own chairperson of the committee, instead of the previous dispensation where the ward councillor was the chair by law.
The select committee has also aligned the term of office of the ward committee with that of the council, i.e. five years, making for greater stability in the administration and life cycle of the ward committee. Other matters deliberated on by the select committee ensured greater alignment of the participation of staff members in elections with the Public Service Amendment Act of 2007. Furthermore, the Bill defines the meaning of “close family member” when providing for the involvement of municipal staff and political office bearers in procurement matters, and strengthening the role and involvement of the National Council of Provinces in matters relating to nonperformance and maladministration in municipalities, and providing for flexibility in dealing with matters relating to intergovernmental planning and the demarcation of boundaries and the adjustments of the division of powers and functions between districts and local municipalities.
I appreciate the important role that the NCOP continues to play as an integral part of the democratic process and as envisaged by our Constitution. In this regard, I would like to thank the members of the Select Committee on Local Government and Administration, under the able leadership of Mr Sicelo Shiceka, for the lively discussions and for managing a consensus on key matters amongst affected stakeholders on some matters of the Bill. I would also like to thank all stakeholders who provided useful comments and insights on various clauses of this Bill. I urge all the members of the NCOP to vote for the adoption of the Bill so that we can now follow the process for its final deliberation by the Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local Government of the National Assembly. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr S SHICEKA: Chairperson, I must say that I appreciate the words of the Deputy Minister. This was the first time in four years that I have been singled out by the Minister to thank me for the role that I played! [Interjections.]
House Chairperson, Deputy Minister, colleagues, officials from the department, members of the media houses, ladies and gentlemen, we are today passing a piece of legislation that is adding to the process of change and transformation. This process was started in 1994 in a democratic breakthrough.
We are now almost 14 years into a democratic dispensation. We have learnt a lot of lessons in the process. Based on those experiences we are making these amendments, which are dealing with three pieces of legislation, creating an omnibus instrument that will be able to ensure that it adds to the arsenal for change and transformation. This tool is a precursor to an extensive process of a White Paper which is aimed at reflecting on our footsteps to date, going down memory lane.
This process was characterised by vigorous and serious engagements, particularly with regard to the fact that there is a view, Deputy Minister, in the committee that there’s some denudation of the powers and functions of provinces in this respect. Whether that is done by commission or omission is something that has to be told by historians.
We are engaging in this process to look at the role of provinces. We say, if there is any review of the role of provinces, that must be put in the open so that all and sundry can make a contribution that will ensure that these matters are dealt with and handled collectively by all of us.
Let me go down memory lane and look at how provinces and this House were created.
The decision to create provinces was not taken lightly. It was preceded by intense political debate, and compromise as well as extensive research and consultation at a local and international level. It was arguably the most contentious part of the negotiation process.
The pros and cons of a federal system and the creation of constitutionally guaranteed powers and functions characterised much of the constitutional debate and the discourse that took place between 1990 and 1996. Prior to the creation of nine provinces, South Africa historically had four provinces, 10 homelands and nine development regions. None of these had wide political credibility, support or legitimacy. Four questions arose at the time when negotiations commenced: Why should there be a second tier of government? How should they be demarcated? What should be their powers? How should their powers be protected?
It was widely recognised in the constitutional debate that, owing to its history, its size, geographical features, development needs and population composition, South Africa would require some form of provincial government. Their concern, however, was that a balance had to be found between defining the role of provinces as a formal sphere of government with guaranteed powers and their importance to national integration, nation-building and minimum standards of development for the entire nation.
The legacy of the dreaded homeland system was so fresh in the minds of many, particularly the liberation movements, that they were fiercely opposed to any form of entrenched provincial system of government. I quote:
The ANC’s vision of a future form of state is based on the view that territorial divisions brought about by apartheid, specifically the independent homelands, must be reversed. The shift which has occurred within the ANC towards greater powers of provinces still does not place the ANC within the group who advocates a federal outcome.
Various reasons were forwarded at the time in favour of the creation of provinces, for example, the size of South Africa makes it impossible to be governed by only national and local governments. The population composition of South Africa requires some form of regional organisation to allow, informally, for cultural, regional and language diversity. Decentralisation to regional and local governments in developed and developing countries have been shown to build capacity and lead to more efficient government.
Political and civil society formations in South Africa were already organised in some form or basis, for example labour unions, political parties, sporting bodies, religious groupings, agricultural organisations and business bodies.
Provinces would be the best way to build national unity, while at the same time recognising diversity and the rise of minority political groupings.
Decentralisation would encourage experimentation and creativity at provincial levels. Decentralisation would build leadership in government and administrative sectors. Decentralisation would enhance the accessibility of government and decision-making. Decentralisation would bring government closer to the people.
Provinces are recognised by the 1996 Constitution of the Republic as a separate sphere of government. The reason why the word “sphere” rather than “level” is used in the Constitution is to make sure that it emphasises that there is no hierarchy between governments. It means there should be no big brother and small brother.
It encourages co-operative relationships between the spheres of government. It means there is no sphere of government that can encroach on the powers of another sphere of government, as opposed to the potential situation in a unitary system. A unitary system refers to a level, indicating hierarchical relationships between the respective levels of government.
Each sphere has constitutionally guaranteed powers and functions, although the national Parliament is empowered to legislate on a set of minimum norms and standards applicable to the entire nation. Each sphere is required to exercise its powers in a manner that does not encroach on the geographical, functional or institutional integrity of another sphere.
This House is the custodian of Chapter 3 of the Constitution. It means we must continuously be vigilant at all times in ensuring that there is no sphere of government that encroaches on the powers of another sphere of government. That is our responsibility, because we are looking at the interests of everyone in this House.
The committee supports the Bill with amendments made as they were defined by the Deputy Minister, and I hope that our colleagues are going to define and explain other amendments that we have made as well as the entire Bill, but we believe as the committee that this Bill is creating new possibilities in ensuring that democracy is entrenched in our society. This Bill, we believe, takes us forward on the road of ensuring that the system of government in this country of co-operative relationships is entrenched.
In conclusion, allow me to thank the Department of Provincial and Local Government for its contribution; National Treasury; the Demarcation Board and Adv Adhikarie for their enlightened and robust contributions, particularly amongst themselves in the task team. I must also thank members of the committee for their insightful contributions, which have managed to enrich the Bill, and staff members for their dedication, commitment and support to the committee.
Deputy Minister, we agreed as the committee that we would prefer it if future Bills could be introduced by executive authorities so that we can engage in political questions, rather than them being introduced by officials. At the same time the committee is waiting anxiously for this extensive process of the White Paper on Local Government and the White Paper on Provincial Government. We want to make a contribution to that process so that it can benefit from our collective experience as the leadership. Thank you very much, Chairperson. [Applause.]
Mnr J W LE ROUX: Voorsitter, Adjunkminister en agb kollegas, die doel van hierdie wysigingswet is om bestaande wette te versterk en in ooreenstemming te bring met die nuwe omstandighede wat tans heers. Daar is met die beraadslaging bewys dat hierdie gekose komitee nooit gebruik sal word as ‘n rubberstempel nie. Die Adjunkminister het dit so pas bevestig en ons sê vir haar baie dankie.
Die DA verskil wel oor die koppeling tussen die Minister van Plaaslike Bestuur en die Minister vir die Staatsdiens en Administrasie. Hierdie is twee verskillende departemente en behoort vir altyd onafhanklik van mekaar te bly.
Waar ons egter nie verskil nie, is dat die Nasionale Raad van Provinsies ‘n belangrike rol in wetgewing kan en moet speel, soos nou deur hierdie komitee bewys is. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Mr J W LE ROUX: Chairperson, Deputy Minister and hon colleagues, the aim of this amending Bill is to strengthen existing Acts and to bring them in line with the new prevailing conditions. Through this deliberation it has been proven that this select committee will never be used as a rubber stamp. The Deputy Minister has just confirmed the aforementioned and we want to thank her for that.
The DA certainly disagrees with regard to linking up the Minister of Local Government and the Minister for Public Service and Administration. These are two different departments and should remain independent of each other.
However, we do not disagree with the fact that the National Council of Provinces could and should play an important role in legislation, as has now been proven by this committee.]
Chairperson, I would like to touch on some of the important clauses that were amended, starting with clause 6, which deals with ward committees.
Firstly, a metro or a local council must develop a policy to determine the criteria on which out-of-pocket expenses will be calculated and paid; secondly, a budget allocation must be made from the municipal coffers; and thirdly, the MEC must monitor all aspects of the policy. It is important to force councils to be fair to ward committee members without wasting taxpayers’ money.
As far as the employment contracts of municipal managers are concerned, the committee decided that the municipal manager’s term must not exceed six months after the election of the next council of a municipality. It is important that a new council must, if necessary, be free to appoint its preferred municipal manager.
As far as the participation of staff members in elections is concerned, the committee decided that the candidate needs only to resign his position after being elected, and not when he is accepted as a candidate. It will be grossly unfair to expect from a candidate to lose his position of employment in the event of the candidate not succeeding in an election.
The committee was united in its efforts to fight corruption. As far as doing business with the council is concerned, a councillor, as well as his or her close family, may not be beneficiaries. Right through the country, councillors have benefited from contracts with their councils, and this unacceptable practice must now stop.
Section 102 of the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act is amended by the addition of subclause 3. I quote the subclause:
A municipality must provide an owner of a property in its jurisdiction with copies of accounts sent to the occupier of the property for municipal services applied to such a property if the owner requests such an account in writing from the municipality.
This is a very important clause because, in the past, property owners were in the dark as to what outstanding amounts were due. Only when the property was sold would the outstanding amounts come to the notice of the owner. In such cases, the transfer of the property could not take place until all debts had been settled.
Lastly, I would again like to thank the chairperson of this committee for the impartial and effective way in which he conducts the business of the committee. Thank you.
Mr Z C NTULI: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, hon members, comrades and friends …
… ngizothi angiqale nje ngiveze ukuthi uma sikhuluma ngohulumeni wasekhaya, sikhuluma ngohulumeni obalulekile ngoba sonke lapha akekho ongahlali kuhulumeni wasekhaya, ngisho uMongameli uqobo lwakhe uhlala ewadini. Ngakho-ke kufanele njalo sazi ukuthi izinqumo esizithathayo akekho umuntu lapha okuthiwa unguzwelonke uma ngabe kukhulunywa ngewadi ngoba sonke sihlala emawadini, kuhulumeni wasekhaya.
Engifisa ukukuveza lapha kubahlonishwa yilokhu kokuthi unyaka wezimali komasipala awuhambisani nonyaka wezimali onjengokahulumeni kazwelonke. Siyazi ukuthi laphaya unyaka wezimali komasipala uqala ekuqaleni kukaJulayi bese uphela ekupheleni kukaJuni onyakeni olandelayo. Lokhu-ke ngikuphakamisa ngoba ngifuna ukuthi sikuqonde lapha esikwenzile ngesikhathi sichibiyela lo Mthethosivivinywa, akuthi uma kuzothintwa imingcele yomasipala, kofanele sazi ukuthi ukuthinteka kwaleyo mingcele kumbe ukusebenza kokuthinteka komngcele kuzosebenza njalo uma kuqala unyaka wezimali, ukuze izimali lezi ezisuke sezabelwe ngokwamawadi noma omasipala zikwazi ukuthi zabiwe ngendlela eyiyo.
Lokhu sikubona ngokuthi esizamile ukukwenza lapha njengekomiti ukuthi uma kuzothinteka imingcele yomasipala kuzofanele ukuthi bonke abantu ababambe iqhaza bangedlulwa bashiywe, bese kutholakale sekukhulunywa nabalaphaya phezulu bezange abantu bathintwe bonke. Lokhu sikubonise ngokuthi sikuveze laphaya ukuthi ikomiti eliklama imingcele esikhundleni sokuthatha isikhathi eside njengezinyanga eziyisithupha, sasibone ukuthi kungakuhle ukuthi isikhathi esingathi siningi kunaso sonke kube izinyanga ezine.
Saphinde futhi sakuveza laphaya ukuthi uNgqongqoshe wezaseKhaya esifundazweni kofanele ukuthi uma ebona kudingekile ukuthi isikhathi sibe sifushane kunalokho, kube nguye othatha isinqumo kodwa ngemuva kokuxhumana noNgqongqoshe wezeziMali kazwelonke.Senzela ukuthi kungabi khona ukushayisana kutholakale ukuthi imali uyinqumile uNgqongqoshe wesifundazwe kanti uNgqongqoshe wezeziMali kazwelonke akazi. Senzela futhi ukuthi kungavele kugxume kuvele kube nguNgqgongqoshe woHulumeni beziFundazwe nezaseKhaya kazwelonke othintana kuphela noNgqongqoshe wezeziMali bese benquma. Sithi-ke bonke laba abathintane uma kukhona uguquko olufanele ukwenziwa kumasipala wasekhaya.
Ngiyadlula lapho ngiza lapha esigabeni se-139 lapho sithola khona ukuthi uNgqongqoshe wohulumeni basekhaya osesifundazweni unamandla okuhlakaza uhulumeni kumasipala. Sithi-ke into ebiba yinkinga lapha, uma ngingakhumbuza iNdlu noSihlalo wami ohloniphekile uShiceka, ukuthi ngesikhathi sivakashele abaQulusi lapha kumasipala wabo, sahlangabezana nenkinga ngesikhathi uhulumeni wasekhaya kamasipala wawusuhlakaziwe uNgqongqoshe. Sathola ukuthi ikomiti yewadi ayazi ukuthi izosebenza kanjani ngoba yayingasenaye usihlalo. Phela isigaba se-139 sithi uma kuhlakazwa umkhandlu, wonke amakhansela abe eseyaphuma bese kufanele kwenziwe ukhetho olusha.
Ngaleso sikhathi kwatholakala ukuthi amakomiti amawadi awasakwazi ukuhlangana ngoba osihlalo bawo abasekho. Yikho-ke sivele nalo mthetho othi koba kuhle ukuthi usihlalo wekomiti lewadi akhethwe yibo labantu abayishumi laba esithi bakhethwe abantu ukuthi babe sekomitini lewadi. Ngakho sithi asibanikeze ilungelo lokuthi bamkhethe usihlalo ukuze noma ungahlakazwa umkhandlu kodwa kwazeke ukuthi kuxhumaneke nabantu futhi kukhulunywe nabo ngenqubekela phambili.
Sithi-ke, njengohulumeni onakekelayo oholwa uKhongolose, okuningi esikwenzile lapha sikwenzele ukuthi abantu bakwazi ukubamba iqhaza uma kuthathwa izinqumo ngabo futhi kungatholakali zikhala emoyeni nje kukhulunywe ngabantu bese kuthathwa izinqumo. Sithi abantu kusukela phansi laphaya abambandakanywe ukuze bakwazi ukuthi uma kukhulunywa ngokuphathwa kwabo nabo babekhona. Baye basho njalo ukuthi ayikho into engathi ngaphandle kwethu.
UKhongolose uyawuxhasa lo Mthethosivivinywa nezichibiyelo ohamba nazo. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[… let me start by pointing out that when we are talking about local government, we are talking about the most important sphere of government because among all of us here, not even a single one of us is not from a local government, even the President himself comes from a ward. We must therefore always know that there is no one here who can claim to be solely concerned with issues of national interest only when crucial decisions about wards are taken, because we all live in wards.
What I want to highlight to the hon members is that the municipalities’ financial years do not coincide with that of the national government. We know that their financial year starts at the beginning of July and ends at the end of June the following year. I mention this because I want us to understand the whole process that when we amended this Bill, we had to know that the affected boundaries would only start working at the beginning of the financial year, so that the funds which were allocated according to the wards or the municipalities could be properly allocated.
What we have tried to do here as a committee is that when the municipal boundaries are affected, none of the stakeholders should be left out. We don’t have to find ourselves engaging with the top officials whilst we did not consult with people on the ground. We have highlighted this by pointing out to the Demarcation Board that instead of taking a longer time, like six months, it should take the maximum of four months.
We have also pointed out that the relevant provincial minister of local government should be the one who decides on the timeframe if he feels that the time allocated should be shorter than that, but this should only happen after consultation with the national Minister of Finance. Such consultation would avoid confusion whereby the relevant provincial minister allocates funds only to find that the Minister of Finance knows nothing about that.
We also want to avoid the bypassing of protocol whereby the national Minister of Provincial and Local Government would only consult the Minister of Finance and then take final decisions, without the involvement of other relevant stakeholders. We are therefore saying all the above-mentioned people should consult one another when there are changes that need to be done in municipalities.
The other important point here is section 139 which states that the provincial minister of local government has the power to dissolve the local council. What we are saying, therefore, is that the problem here was that – if I can just remind the House and my hon chairperson, Mr Shiceka – when we visited the AbaQulusi Municipality, we found that there was no local council, hence the MEC had dissolved it. We discovered that the ward committee did not know how it would operate because it did not have a chairperson anymore. As we all know, section 139 states that when the municipal council is dissolved, all the councillors forfeit their positions and then a new election is held.
At that time we found that the ward committees could not hold meetings anymore because their chairpersons were no longer in office. That is why we came up with the rule which states that the chairperson of the ward committee should be elected by the same 10 people who are said to have been elected by the people to be in the ward committee. We are therefore saying that, let us give them the right to elect the chairperson so that, even if the council is dissolved, at least it would still be possible for them to meet with people and talk to them about development.
We are therefore saying, as the ANC-led and a caring government, everything we have done here is for the people. And they need to play a role when decisions affecting them are taken. Things should not be simply said into the air. And the people must be involved when decisions about them are taken. We are saying people from the grassroots level should be involved when decisions about their governance are taken. As they always say, “nothing about us, without us”.
The ANC supports this Bill with amendments. Thank you.]
Ms B L NTEMBE: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, hon members, it is commendable to see that the Department of Trade and Industry has been mandated to contribute to the regional economic development. It is also commendable to see that the DTI will increasingly partner with the Department for Provincial and Local Government and other role players in strengthening local economic development initiatives.
Local government is much closer to the people on the ground than any of the three spheres of government. The implementation of policies and the bringing of service delivery to the people is the responsibility of local government. However, the crux of the matter is that we see our people running around dissatisfied in the streets demonstrating their feelings.
We look forward to seeing the lives of our people being uplifted by the sphere of government that is closest to them. Inefficiencies need to be addressed. When complaints reach our offices in relation to alleged corruption by local government officials, we, the people of South Africa, have the right to know the outcomes of those complaints if any disciplinary action was taken. But, most of the time, a deadly silence deafens us.
The Minister of Sport and Recreation asked the question: “Why the suspicion?” He asked the question in Potchefstroom when the NCOP took Parliament to the people. I will answer that question. It is because most of the time people are not informed of the outcomes of investigations, whether they are positive or negative. We see written complaints of nepotism and tenders being taken by councillors, like in Naledi Municipality in the Free State. We need to rectify what needs to be rectified for the sake of our people and our country. This Bill needs to speak, in order to rectify. I thank you, Chairperson.
Ms K A KGAREBE: Chairperson of the House, hon Deputy Minister and hon members, local government is the backbone of the community. Small jobs must be kick-started by municipalities. Yes, municipalities are not sources of job creation, but their image should attract the eyes of individuals and even visitors from far countries.
It is the UCDP’s view that priority for jobs in municipalities should be given to people in that particular municipality. Access should be given to constituencies to list their needs in their local vicinity.
Amongst other things, councillors must be aware of their surroundings, for example, knowing the statistics of their wards. They must strive to differentiate between those people who need assistance with grants and those who are healthy enough to be able to work. Administration of funds should be balanced to meet people’s needs. The UCDP requests that mayors, municipal managers, officials, councillors, stakeholders and the people at large in the North West work hand in hand to make a success, in order to stimulate the spirit of interest and to imprint love and pride in the people from the municipality. The UCDP supports the Bill. I thank you, Chairperson.
Mr N J MACK: Chairperson, hon Minister, Deputy Minister, my chairperson, colleagues and comrades …
Laat ek net ’n bietjie Afrikaans praat. Hierdie komitee van plaaslike regering is ’n dinamiese komitee. Ek is vandag stomgeslaan deur die DA wat so rustig is. Ek wonder of daar iets in die paaseiers was wat hulle soeter gemaak het.
Dit wys dat hulle verstaan. Dit is die teenoorgestelde van die ID en die UCDP. Hulle is nie deel van die komitee nie en hulle was nie deel van die in diepte gesprek in die komitee nie en daar is nie ’n begrip van wat eintlik aangegaan het nie. Ek wil net vir die agb Le Roux sê ek dink nie die wetgewing is ’n proses waarmee ons wil begin om, soos hulle sê, “’n kick-start” te gee aan die “single Public Service” nie. Ek dink hierdie wetgewing is daarop gemik om die uitdagings, wat ons nou opgetel het in plaaslike regering, aan te spreek, dit te verbeter en reg te maak.
Ons sal gedurig verander, want in die toekoms sal nie een van ons wat hier sit kan sê dat ons ondervinding het van wat in die toekoms gaan gebeur nie. Ek het al gehoor manne praat van hulle vorige lewe. Maar daar kan nie teruggegaan word na die verlede toe nie. Ons moet die verlede gebruik om te bepaal hoe ons na die toekoms gaan kyk. So, transformasie en verandering gaan by ons bly solank ons en dié wat ná ons kom, lewe. Daar is voortdurend verandering en aanpassing en uitdagings wat ons die hoof sal moet bied.
Ons behandel ’n hele paar goed in hierdie wetgewing. Ons kyk na amptenare wat hulle beskikbaar wil stel as raadslede en ons sê – en dit is mos nou net menslik – dat wanneer die kandidaat geslaagd is en aangestel word as raadslid, dan moet hy bedank as amptenaar. So nie skep ons werkloosheid, want as hierdie man nie die verkiesing wen nie, sit hy sonder ’n werk as hy te vroeg bedank.
Ons kyk ook na die termyn van munisipale bestuurders. U weet, die ding van munisipale bestuurders en amptenare is ook ’n uitdaging vir ons. Wanneer ’n politieke party ’n raad oorneem en as daar ’n ander burgemeester is – en ons sien dit gebeur – word die munisipale bestuurder ook in die pad gesteek. Ek is bekommerd hieroor, want hier is geld betrokke. Die munisipale bestuurder word nou ’n lywige bedrag geld betaal want sy termyn is mos nog nie om nie. Hy moet nou uitgekoop word, en dié manne kry baie geld.
Somtyds lyk dit my of mense aansoek doen, sodat hulle maar weer kan gaan en ’n goeie som geld daaruit kry. Dit is nie ’n gesonde ding nie, want hierdie geld kan vir dienslewering gebruik word.
Saam hiermee is die tendens dat elke verskil of dingetjie in ’n raad nou na ’n hof toe gesleep word. Dit veroorsaak duur hofgedinge en kostes. Dit het finansiële implikasies. U weet, in arm rade op die platteland is dit ’n groot verlies wanneer geld aan hofonkostes bestee word. Dit is ook een van die groot probleme in die Wes-Kaap. Die LUR het dit al ’n paar keer vir ons genoem. Ons sê in die Wes-Kaap dat ons te doen het met maak-’n-las-rade, want ons het gedurige veranderings as gevolg van koalisievorming. Vandag stem twee partye saam en hulle raak ontslae van die ander party se lede. Dit het tot gevolg dat ’n ander burgermeester en ander munisipale bestuurders aangestel word en dit veroorsaak onstabiliteit. Dis een van die dinge waarna ek dink ons moet begin kyk. Koalisivorming moet ook in ’n mate aangespreek word.
U sal by sommige rade vind dat ’n eenmanpartytjie, wat net uit een lid bestaan, die hele raad swaai in ’n rigting. Dit is nie demokrasie nie, want die man het ’n paar stemme en die meerderheid en die raad moet nou maar geswaai word. Dit is wat ons in Afrikaans noem, die stert swaai nou die kat in die rondte. Ons kan nie dat die stert die kat in die rondte swaai nie. Jy kry rade waar die meerderheidsparty nie regeer nie, want jy kry ’n party wat met klomp ander klein partytjies saamsmelt om die party in die meerderheid te kry. Sulke koalisievorming moet êrens aangespreek word.
Ek het ‘n maklike taak om laaste te praat, want met die kapasiteit in hierdie komitee en met almal wat al alles gesê het, kan ek net vir u sê: Minister, ek voel vandag bly dat ek die ondersteuning van die DA het. Ek kan dit amper nie glo nie, maar dit wys dat ons goed saamwerk in die komitee. Ek vra dat ons hierdie wetgewing ondersteun. Daar gaan nog kom, want ons gaan gedurig verander ten gunste van dienslewering aan ons mense. Baie dankie. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Allow me to speak a bit of Afrikaans. This committee on local government is a dynamic committee. I am totally speechless today that the DA is that quiet. I wonder whether there was something in their Easter eggs that made them sweeter.
It shows that they understand. It is completely the opposite with regard to the ID and UCDP. They are not part of this committee and they were not part of the in-depth discussion that took place in this committee, and there is clearly no understanding as to what actually transpired. I would just like to say to the hon Le Roux, I do not think this legislation is the process with which we want to, as they say, kick-start a single Public Service. I think this legislation is aimed at addressing the challenges that we have encountered at local government, and at improving and rectifying it. We will constantly have to change, because not one of us sitting here can predict what the future has in store. I have heard of people speaking about their previous lives. However, we cannot return to the past. We have to use the past to determine how we are going to view the future. Therefore, transformation and change will be with us for as long as we, and those who come after us, are alive. There will be constant changes and adjustments and challenges that we shall have to overcome.
This legislation addresses a number of issues. We have officials who want to make themselves available as councillors and we are saying that – and of course it is only human – when the candidate has been successful and is then appointed as a councillor, he then has to resign as an official. If not, we are creating unemployment because if this man does not win the election, he will be without employment if he should resign prematurely.
We are also considering the term of office of municipal managers. As you are aware, this issue pertaining to municipal managers and officials is also a challenge to us. When a political party takes control of the council and a different mayor is appointed - and we see this happening – the municipal manager is also given the boot. This is of concern to me as there is money at stake. The municipal manager is then given a huge payout as his term of office has not yet expired. He has to be paid out and these people are highly paid.
Sometimes it seems to me as if people only apply so that they can be relieved of their duties just to gain a tidy sum of money in the process. This is not a healthy state of affairs, as this money can be used for service delivery.
In conjunction with this, there is the tendency lately that every disagreement or issue in a council is now taken to a court. This results in costly lawsuits and incurs costs. It has financial implications. You know it is a huge loss for poorer councils in the rural areas when money is spent on lawsuits. This is also one of the great challenges in the Western Cape. The MEC has mentioned this to us on number of occasions. In the Western Cape we are saying that we are dealing with “maak-‘n-las” councils, because we have continual changes as a result of the formation of coalitions. Today, two parties may agree and they will then get rid of the members of the other party. This results in the appointment of a new mayor and other municipal managers which causes instability. That is one of the issues which I think we should start looking at. The formation of coalitions should also be addressed to some extent.
You will find within some councils that a small one-man party, consisting of a single member, can change the direction of the whole council. That is not democracy, because this man has only a few votes and the majority in the council has to change in that direction now. This is what is commonly known in Afrikaans as the tail now wagging the dog. We cannot let the tail wag the dog. You find councils where the majority party is not the ruling party, because you find a party that has formed a coalition with a number of other smaller parties to enable it to obtain the majority. Such coalitions have to be addressed somehow.
I have the easy task of being the last speaker and because of the capacity in this committee and with everybody else having said what needed to be said, I can only say: Minister, I am happy today that I have the support of the DA. I can hardly believe this, but it shows we have a high level of co- operation in the committee. My request is that we support this legislation – and there will be more to follow – as there will be constant change in favour of service delivery to the people. Thank you. [Applause.]]
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson and hon members, I would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone for participating in such a constructive debate. I was most impressed, because this sphere of government is the most important one of all, as it touches the heart of our people. I really want to thank you from the bottom of my heart.
I am not going to say much, but I just want to alleviate the chairperson’s concerns regarding consultation processes. I think you raised it very sharply and I think the issues that you have raised about which you are concerned – the role of provinces and the power of provinces, etc – during the review process, are issues that need to be thrashed out very strongly and vigorously, as you did earlier on with the officials in the select committee. I think we must be alert that those issues will be dealt with, and I wish to thank you also for raising a number of very strong issues.
The second thing I also want to alleviate is the concern of the hon Le Roux regarding the working relationship between the Department of Provincial and Local Government and Minister Geraldine Fraser-Moleketi’s department. You see, it is important, hon member, that as government we talk to one another. We shouldn’t work above each other. We need an intergovernmental relationship. It is for consultation. If there is an area that affects a particular department, let’s consult, let’s talk to one another so that we can best bring about results to the advantage of our people. I think it is just consultation and working together and it is necessary for us to do so, and these two Ministries should work together.
There is another concern that worried me about the hon Le Roux. Perhaps that is my concern at the moment. Maybe when we deal with the process, we will be able to work out these concerns much better. My concern is with an official who is helped to become a candidate, but who is employed by the municipality. Now, the suggestion is that he should not resign until he is appointed or has won whatever position he is standing for. The concern is the resources of government, because then it would be unfair to another person who is, perhaps, unemployed, who is also a candidate and who doesn’t have access to those resources. Then he has full access to these resources. It is a bit unfair, but we can still debate it. That is the concern at the back of my mind.
Hon Ntuli, I fully agree with you, sir, that this is something that has been raised a number of times, namely the issue of these different financial years. The financial years of local government and national are not the same; local government’s is much later and they also complain about fiscal dumping. When it is the end of the financial year, a particular department will simply throw in the money and say that we have given you a lot of money, so what have you done with the money? We regard that as fiscal dumping. So, I agree with you, and maybe it is something that we should actually look into and also review during the review process.
To the hon member from the ID, you know, sometimes it is very easy for people to throw accusations around. I always say to people - when they say that the councillors are corrupt, the mayors are corrupt, there is a lot of nepotism taking place, and also in terms of tendering processes – go to the police station. The easiest thing is to go to the nearest police station and report those cases. Don’t make wild allegations here. Go to the nearest police station. You are a politician. Go to the nearest police station and say: So-and-so has done this. Thank you. [Applause.]
Debate concluded. The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Thank you, hon Deputy Minister. Order, hon members!
I shall now put the question. The question is that the Bill, subject to the proposed amendments, be agreed to.
In accordance with Rule 63, I shall first allow political parties the opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. Is there any party that wants to make a declaration? No? In the absence of any declarations, we will proceed. We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. Those in favour will say “Aye”. Those against will say “No”.
HON MEMBERS: Aye!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): I think the “Ayes” have it. The majority of members voted in favour. I therefore declare the Bill, subject to the proposed amendments, agreed to.
Bill, subject to proposed amendments, agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
PROHIBITION OR RESTRICTION OF CERTAIN CONVENTIONAL WEAPONS BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)
Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson and hon members, this Parliament once passed what we call the Firearms Control Act. We passed the Armscor Act as well. The Minister of Safety and Security once made a call that people should surrender all illegal firearms, and that was done. He even went further to give amnesty to people who complied with that kind of a call, and that was done.
We are now presenting to this Council another piece of legislation that seeks to prohibit or restrict certain conventional weapons. As usual, the committee deliberated on the provisions of this Bill and effected some amendments. Those amendments aim to improve or enhance the implementation thereof. We even brought in some amendments to the definitions that were welcomed warmly by the departments and our legal advisers.
As we know, there is some ammunition that cannot be used without the permission of the state. There is an agreement between our country, South Africa, and other countries, even the UN, that we had to approve an Act whereby we restrict or prohibit the use of those kinds of ammunition. All nondetectable fragments, booby-traps and other devices are restricted or prohibited in terms of this provision.
There is a provision that gives people who might be in possession of those kinds of ammunition that are prohibited a chance to go and surrender them. The requirements on how to surrender them have been regulated. If you are in possession of these prohibited or restricted weapons, what you need to do is go to your nearest police officer to notify them of those kinds of ammunition that are prohibited. We want to avoid people carrying these ammunition to the police stations. The danger thereof is, let’s say you take this prohibited ammunition to the police station and there is a road block before you reach the police station where you find police officers, etc there at that road block, it will be very difficult for you to convince them and say: “No, I was going to the police station.” Therefore, the committee, led by yours truly, made these amendments that were accepted by everybody. [Interjections.] No, no, no. Let people just notify policy officers or enforcement agencies. Then they will come and collect it from you. Once you sign that particular form, you will be out of it. You see, that is this committee for you.
What we have done in this provision is that we are allowing people, immediately after this Bill becomes an Act, six months to notify the state about those kinds of ammunition in their possession. What we are going to do, as South Africa, is to ensure that this Bill becomes an Act immediately. We had to inform the Secretary of the UN of this legislation that we have just enacted. That will be in terms of Article 14 of this convention. Of course, there will be people who will be exempted, for example some organs of state who are using some of these ammunition. Before they can use it or keep them in their possession, they have to get permission from the relevant departments.
The committee raised the concern that there are countries that, when these kinds of requirements are dictated to them, will be the first ones to pass this legislation, and after passing it, those particular countries will be the first ones to violate the same legislation. We are saying, let’s come up with a mechanism that will advise our executive about what will happen to those countries who pass this legislation, but at the same time are the first ones to violate it. As you are aware, there are other countries that are bullied into agreeing to some of these laws. At the same time, what they will do when it suits them is to simply ignore whatever declaration was issued.
Let me thank my committee for their vigorous engagements on this Bill. As a norm, all members of this committee, regardless of the political affiliations, played the ball and not the man. You’ll be surprised to know that we have been joined by this new member from the Northern Cape, hon Van der Merwe, who adjusted so quickly and fitted in so well to these detachments. [Laughter.] Thank you very much, hon Van der Merwe, for being such a dedicated member. He is one of the best players in our team. He fits in so well. Thank you, colleagues, for being such a dynamic and wonderful team. Chairperson, allow me now to, on behalf of these detachments, present this Bill to this Council and request that it be endorsed with those proposed amendments. I so submit. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): I shall now put the question. The question is that the Bill, subject to the proposed amendments, be agreed to.
In accordance with Rule 63, I shall first allow political parties the opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. Those in favour will say “Aye” and those against will say “No”. [Interjections.] I think the “Ayes” have it.
The majority of members voted in favour. I therefore declare the Bill, subject to the proposed amendments, agreed to. That concludes the business of the day.
Bill, subject to proposed amendments, agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
The Council adjourned at 17:41. ____
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
The Speaker and the Chairperson
- Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)
(1) The JTM on 18 March 2008 in terms of Joint Rule 160(6)
classified the following Bill as a section 75 Bill:
a) Renaming of High Courts Bill [B 5 – 2008] (National Assembly –
sec 75).
(2) The JTM on 26 March 2008 in terms of Joint Rule 160(6)
classified the following Bill as a section 75 Bill:
a) Refugees Amendment Bill [B 11 – 2008] (National Assembly – sec
75).
(3) The JTM on 26 March 2008 in terms of Joint Rule 160(6)
classified the following Bills as section 76 Bills:
a) Tobacco Products Control Amendment Bill [B 7 – 2008] (National
Assembly – sec 76).
b) Prevention and Treatment for Substance Abuse Bill [B 12 –
2008] (National Assembly – sec 76).
-
Draft Bills submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159
1) Submitted by the Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs.
(a) Agricultural Debt Management Repeal Bill, 2008 (b) Land Use Management Bill, 2008
Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Agriculture and Land Affairs and
the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs.
- Bills passed by Houses – to be submitted to President for assent
(1) Bill passed by National Council of Provinces on 26 March 2008:
a) Division of Revenue Bill [B 4 – 2008] (National Assembly – sec
76).
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
-
The Minister of Transport
(a) Report and Financial Statements of the Road Traffic Management Corporation for 2006-2007, including the Report of the Auditor- General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2006-2007.
-
The Minister of Science and Technology
a) Strategic Plan for the Department of Science and Technology for 2008-2009.