National Council of Provinces - 13 November 2008
THURSDAY, 13 NOVEMBER 2008 __
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
____
The Council met at 11:35.
The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.
NOTICE OF MOTION
Mr M A MZIZI: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the NCOP I shall move on behalf of the IFP:
That the Council -
1) notes with concern that the Gauteng MEC for health has admitted
that security in public hospitals in the province is a problem;
2) further notes that these comments follow an attack on a University
of Witwatersrand medical student in the parking lot of a local
hospital last Friday;
3) realises that the inadequate security in our hospitals not only
puts the lives of many people in danger but is also a deterrent to
doctors, nurses and other badly needed medical professionals who
might otherwise have worked in these hospitals; and
4) urges the relevant security and hospital authorities to work
together in formulating plans to improve security in our hospitals.
MOTION OF CONDOLENCE
(The late S P Molamu)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council -
1) notes with utter dismay the brutal murder of Samuel Papi Molamu in
Sharpeville in the Gauteng province;
2) further notes that the 31-year-old paraplegic was apparently killed
for his monthly R940.00 disability grant, which he had gone to
collect from a payout point in the township;
3) also notes that Mr Molamu used his disability grant to provide for
his three siblings, who are now left to fend for themselves; and
4) takes this opportunity to convey its condolences to the Molamu
family and calls on the law enforcement agencies to make sure that
the perpetrators of this brutal and vicious crime are brought to
book to face the might of the law.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
CASH-IN-TRANSIT VAN ROBBED AND POLICE OFFICERS SHOT IN KWAZULU-NATAL
(Draft Resolution)
Mnu D D GAMEDE: Sihlalo ohloniphekile, ngiphakamisa ngaphandle kwesaziso:
Ukuthi lo Mkhandlu -
(1) nomphakathi wonke waseNingizimu Africa nowaKwaZulu-Natali ugxeka isenzo sezigebengu sokubulala amaphoyisa nokuthatha imali yempesheni;
(2) weseka uNgqogqoshe WezokuPhepha uMhlonishwa Nathi Mthethwa esimemezelweni sakhe sokuthi kuliwe ngokushesha nalezi zigebengu futhi zingancengwa zingatotoswa;
(3) umema umphakathi wonke welekelele amaphoyisa ekubanjweni kwalezi zigebengu; futhi
(4) wedlulisa ukuzwelana nazo zonke izihlobo ezilahlekelwe kulesi sigameko. (Translation of isiZulu draft resolution follows.)
[Mr D D GAMEDE: Hon Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) and the entire South African community, particularly in KwaZulu-
Natal, critises the callous act of the criminals who killed
policemen and robbed a cash-in- transit van;
(2) supports the Minister of Safety and Security, hon Nathi
Mthethwa, in his call to fight these criminals immediately and
that the police have to be hard on them;
(3) asks the people to help the police to catch these criminals; and
(4) conveys its condolences to all the bereaved families who lost
their loved ones in this incident.]
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
REVENUE LAWS AMENDMENT BILL
REVENUE LAWS SECOND AMENDMENT BILL
(Consideration of Bills and of Reports thereon)
Mr M O ROBERTSON: Hon Deputy Chair, hon members, what is frequently overlooked in our discourse over a developmental state is the importance of revenue collection and also the importance of a focused and well- capacitated revenue administration.
Revenue collection and administration are the core of building an effective developmental state. Revenue collection is considered an enabler of development. It permits government to create fiscal space in order to pursue its national developmental agendas such as contesting poverty and inequality. I ask the House to please accept the amendments to the revenue Bills. I thank you. [Applause.] Debate concluded.
Revenue Laws Amendment Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
Revenue Laws Second Amendment Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
FINANCE BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)
Mr T S RALANE: Chairperson, colleagues, to ensure an effective link between policies and public expenditure, the first task is to establish a comprehensive, valued and appropriate policy agenda. Assessing spending programmes against a range of measures such as national developmental plans, a poverty-reduction strategy and the political manifesto of the ruling party is a difficult but manageable task. This task is difficult because of the following reasons: One, various policy agendas that have competing requirements; two, a lack of clarity on how a policy should be ranked; and three, a lack of policy prioritisation, which causes a dilemma for line agencies.
South Africa’s policy agenda represents a contract between voters of the majority party and their elected leaders. Changes to policy and budget systems are embedded in this understanding of the government-voter relationship.
It is accepted that contracts cannot be specified for all eventualities. Policy agendas and budgets are examples of contracts that are transparent. It is not feasible to cover all contingencies that may affect the ability of a government to deliver on its policy promises.
On this note, could I ask this House to pass this Finance Bill? Thank you very much.
Debate concluded.
Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES PENSION FUND (CONDONATION OF INTERRUPTED SERVICE) BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): I now call upon the hon E M Sogoni, chairperson of the Select Committee on Finance, to lead the debate. [Interjections.] Order!
Mr E M SOGONI: Thank you very much for protecting me, Deputy Chairperson. Hon members, somehow this Bill is a distortion of the real issue. We are dealing here with one individual who petitioned Parliament so that his pension can go uninterrupted. The person initially stopped working for government and then returned later. So the intention of this Bill is to effect a continuous service.
In terms of clause 56 of the Constitution, citizens of South Africa are permitted to petition and make representations or submissions to Parliament. This is what the person did.
The objectives of the Bill are to give effect to the petition before the National Assembly - we are now at the National Council of Provinces - so that the service of Adv Abraham Kellermann is regarded as continuous service of 20 years. The Select Committee on Finance deliberated on this Bill and now requests this House to support it. Thank you.
Debate concluded.
Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
ESKOM SUBORDINATED LOAN SPECIAL APPROPRIATION BILL (2008-09 – 2010-11
FINANCIAL YEARS)
(Consideration of Bill and of Report of thereon)
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Order! I request that this House comes to order immediately, please! You are impugning the decorum of this House. Please, let there be order in this House immediately!
Ms A N T MCHUNU: Chairperson, the energy crisis that gripped South Africa for so long was a clear indication that Eskom did not have the generating capacity to meet the needs of our growing population and to support our growth targets. This Bill before us today is to provide for a subordinated loan to Eskom in support of its investment in enhanced electricity generation capacity and security of supply. The passing of this Bill is therefore very important and is supported by the Select Committee on Finance.
We hope that the additional funds will be used wisely to enhance the generating capacity, and not only to provide relief to businesspeople and people in urban areas, but also to speed up the electrification of our rural areas.
I do sympathise with the people and businesses in urban areas that have suffered as a result of the electricity shortages. However, I believe that more attention and resources must be focused on, firstly, electrifying our rural areas at a more rapid pace and, secondly, ensuring a reliable supply of electricity to these areas so that the quality of life of the people in these areas can be improved. The lack of development and electrification of the rural areas also has a negative social and economic impact on the urban areas as it causes people to flee these areas for the cities and towns. They take shelter in urban informal settlements, again placing a demand on service delivery.
The Select Committee on Finance requests that this House supports the Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
METHODIST CHURCH OF SOUTHERN AFRICA (PRIVATE) ACT REPEAL BILL
DUTCH REFORMED CHURCHES UNION ACT REPEAL BILL
THE APOSTOLIC FAITH MISSION OF SOUTH AFRICA (PRIVATE) ACT REPEAL BILL
(Consideration of Bills and of Reports thereon)
Mr M A SULLIMAN: Chairperson, we have three Bills before this august House today, namely the Methodist Church of Southern Africa (Private) Act Repeal Bill, the Dutch Reformed Churches Union Act Repeal Bill and The Apostolic Faith Mission of South Africa (Private) Act Repeal Bill. Before I get to the contents of the Bills, let me explain that the hon member P Gerber has a habit of picking up old books and putting them in a storeroom. This hon member came across a book containing statutes and discovered that these three churches were governed by an Act of Parliament.
Now, in terms of our Constitution, South Africa is a secular state. There is, therefore, no need for an Act of Parliament to govern the affairs of churches in the Republic of South Africa. Therefore, these three Bills make it possible for us, today, to repeal these three Acts. In South Africa we have – I don’t know how many - hundreds of churches, and only these three churches are governed by an Act of Parliament.
If you read through the principal Acts, you will find that they are discriminatory in nature: They only refer to men, and speak about coloured people, and so on. Therefore, these three Acts that we are repealing here today are, in actual fact, unconstitutional and we would like to appeal to this august House to support these three Bills. Enkosi. [Thank you.]
Debate concluded.
Methodist Church of Southern Africa (Private) Act Repeal Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
Dutch Reformed Churches Union Act Repeal Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
The Apostolic Faith Mission of South Africa (Private) Act Repeal Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): Hon members, before I suspend the proceedings, there’s a request from the Chief Whip of the Council for you to stay behind after I have suspended the proceedings for this session. Hon members, the proceedings of the House are suspended and will be resumed at 14:00. Thank you.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, this was a request to you, as the presiding officer, that we should continue with the business of the day to its completion, seeing that we still have enough time left to do so.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P M Hollander): I’m sorry, I cannot continue with the business of the day. I was requested to preside over this session only. Proceedings will resume at 14:00. Thank you.
Business suspended at 12:15 and resumed at 14:05.
Afternoon Sitting
STUDENTS IN GALLERY
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Hon members, I am informed that there are students in the gallery from Tulbagh High School. I wish to acknowledge them. Thank you very much for visiting the National Council of Provinces. [Applause.]
I hope to see one of you sitting here as a politician in the future. Maybe one of you will even become the President of the country. Welcome to the NCOP. Thank you.
ADJUSTMENTS APPROPRIATION BILL
(Consideration of Votes and Schedule)
Vote No 1 - The Presidency - put and agreed to.
Vote No 2 - Parliament - put and agreed to.
Vote No 3 - Foreign Affairs - put and agreed to.
Vote No 4 - Home Affairs - put and agreed to.
Vote No 5 - Public Works - put and agreed to.
Vote No 6 - Government Communication and Information System - put and agreed to.
Vote No 7 - National Treasury - put and agreed to.
Vote No 8 — Public Service and Administration — put and agreed to.
Vote No 9 — Public Service Commission — put and agreed to.
Vote No 10 — SA Management Development Institute (Samdi) — put and agreed to.
Vote No 11 — Statistics South Africa — put and agreed to.
Vote No 12 — Arts and Culture — put and agreed to.
Vote No 13 — Education — put and agreed to.
Vote No 14 — Health — put and agreed to.
Vote No 15 — Labour — put and agreed to.
Vote No 16 — Social Development — put and agreed to.
Vote No 17 — Sport and Recreation South Africa — put and agreed to.
Vote No 18 — Correctional Services — put and agreed to.
Vote No 19 — Defence — put.
Division demanded.
The Council divided:
AYES - 28: Adams, F; Botha, D J; Douglas, W M; Dlulane, B N; Gamede, D D; Hollander, P M; Kolweni, Z S; Mack, N J; Matlanyane, H F; Mazibuko, N F; Mchunu, A N T; Moatshe, P; Moseki, A L; Mqungquthu, N S S; Mzizi, M A; Ntembe, B L; Ntuli, Z C; Ntwanambi, N D; Oliphant, M N; Ralane, T S; Robertson, M O; Setona, T S; Sulliman, M A; Themba, M P; Tsotetsi, D R; Van Rooyen, C J; Vilakazi, J N; Windvoël, V V Z.
NOES - 9: Chen, S S; Krumbock, G R; Lamoela, H; Le Roux, J W; Terblanche, J F; Thetjeng, O M; Van der Merwe, D J P; Watson, A; Worth, D A.
Vote accordingly agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).
Vote No 20 — Independent Complaints Directorate — put and agreed to.
Vote No 21 — Justice and Constitutional Development — put and agreed to.
Vote No 22 — Safety and Security — put.
Division demanded.
The Council divided:
AYES - 29: Adams, F; Botha, D J; Douglas, W M; Dlulane, B N; Gamede, D D; Hollander, P M; Kolweni, Z S; Mack, N J; Matlanyane, H F; Mazibuko, N F; Mchunu, A N T; Moatshe, P; Mokoena, M L; Moseki, A L; Mqungquthu, N S S; Mzizi, M A; Ntembe, B L; Ntuli, Z C; Ntwanambi, N D; Oliphant, M N; Ralane, T S; Robertson, M O; Setona, T S; Sulliman, M A; Themba, M P; Tsotetsi, D R; Van Rooyen, C J; Vilakazi, J N; Windvoël, V V Z.
NOES - 9: Chen, S S; Krumbock, G R; Lamoela, H; Le Roux, J W; Terblanche, J F; Thetjeng, O M; Van der Merwe, D J P; Watson, A; Worth, D A.
Vote accordingly agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).
Vote No 23 — Agriculture — put and agreed to.
Vote No 24 — Communications — put and agreed to.
Vote No 25 — Environmental Affairs and Tourism — put and agreed to.
Vote No 26 — Housing — put and agreed to.
Vote No 27 — Land Affairs — put and agreed to.
Vote No 28 — Minerals and Energy — put and agreed to.
Vote No 29 — Provincial and Local Government — put and agreed to.
Vote No 30 — Public Enterprises — put and agreed to.
Vote No 31 — Science and Technology — put and agreed to.
Vote No 32 — Trade and Industry — put and agreed to.
Vote No 33 — Transport — put.
Division demanded.
The Council divided:
AYES - 29: Adams, F; Botha, D J; Douglas, W M; Dlulane, B N; Gamede, D D; Hollander, P M; Kolweni, Z S; Mack, N J; Matlanyane, H F; Mazibuko, N F; Mchunu, A N T; Moatshe, P; Mokoena, M L; Moseki, A L; Mqungquthu, N S S; Mzizi, M A; Ntembe, B L; Ntuli, Z C; Ntwanambi, N D; Oliphant, M N; Ralane, T S; Robertson, M O; Setona, T S; Sulliman, M A; Themba, M P; Tsotetsi, D R; Van Rooyen, C J; Vilakazi, J N; Windvoël, V V Z.
NOES - 9: Chen, S S; Krumbock, G R; Lamoela, H; Le Roux, J W; Terblanche, J F; Thetjeng, O M; Van der Merwe, D J P; Watson, A; Worth, D A.
Vote accordingly agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).
Vote No 34 — Water Affairs and Forestry — put and agreed to.
Schedule put and agreed to.
ADJUSTMENTS APPROPRIATION BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)
Mr D J BOTHA: Hon Chairperson, hon colleagues, the Adjustments Appropriation Bill makes provision for the appropriation of an additional adjustment budget of R25,9 billion.
Furthermore, this Adjustments Appropriation Bill implements the ANC’s pledge to create a better life for all. The Bill channels funds to programmes aimed at improving the welfare of ordinary people.
In regard to voting on this Bill, the ANC’s landslide victory here is a precursor to what will happen in next year’s elections. The Finance committee asks this House to approve this Bill. Thank you. [Applause.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! I’m very excited to see this House so active today. I don’t know what’s wrong with you today. [Laughter.] [Interjections.] There must be something that excites you. Is it payday today? Oh, payday is tomorrow!
Debate concluded.
Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Hon members, I have been requested by an hon member of this House, Ms Beauty Dlulane, to thank all of you for taking Parliament to the Eastern Cape. She told me that you all worked very hard and behaved well. So, I want to congratulate you and to thank you very much for that.
COMPLAINT REGARDING S & T RESOLVED
The second announcement is that, following the complaint that you raised during a programming committee meeting about the S and T, this allowance has been paid into your accounts. The S and T for the sixth day is being processed currently.
HON MEMBERS: Amandla! [Power to the people!]
The Council adjourned at 14:22. ____
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
The Speaker and the Chairperson
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Bills passed by Houses—to be submitted to President for assent
(1) Bills passed by National Council of Provinces on 13 November 2008:
(a) Methodist Church of Southern Africa (Private) Act Repeal Bill [B 68—2008] (National Assembly—sec 75). (b) Dutch Reformed Churches Union Act Repeal Bill [B 69—2008] (National Assembly—sec 75). (c) The Apostolic Faith Mission of South Africa (Private) Act Repeal Bill [B 71B 〉 (d) Adjustments Appropriation Bill [B 76—2008] (National Assembly—sec 77). (e) Eskom Subordinated Loan Special Appropriation (2008/09—2010/11 Financial Years) Bill [B 77—2008] (National Assembly—sec 77). (f) Finance Bill [B 78—2008] (National Assembly—sec 77). (g) Government Employees Pension Fund (Condonation of Interrupted Service) Bill [B 79—2008] (National Assembly—sec 77). (h) Revenue Laws Amendment Bill [B 80—2008] (National Assembly—sec 77). (i) Revenue Laws Second Amendment Bill [B 81—2008] (National Assembly—sec 75).
TABLINGS
National Council of Provinces
1. The Chairperson
a) Amending Draft Notice and Schedule submitted in terms of section
2(4) of the Judges Remuneration and Conditions of Employment
Act, 2001 (Act No 47 of 2001), determining the rate at which
salaries are payable to Constitutional Court judges and judges
annually, with effect from 1 April 2008, for approval by
Parliament.
Referred to the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional
Affairs for consideration and report.
COMMITTEE REPORTS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
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Report of the Ad hoc Joint Committee on Amendment Regulations made in terms of section 10 of the Public Funding of Represented Political Parties Act, 1997 (Act No. 103 of 1997), dated 13 November 2008:
The Ad hoc Joint Committee on Amendment Regulations made in terms of section 10 of the Public Funding of Represented Political Parties Act, 1997 (Act No. 103 of 1997), consisting of members of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development and the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, having considered the draft amendment regulations tabled by the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development on 20 October 2008, referred to it, recommends to the President, in terms of section 10(1) of the Public Funding of Represented Political Parties Act, 1997 (Act No. 103 of 1997), that the said regulations be amended to read as follows:
SCHEDULEDefinitions
1. In this Schedule "the Regulations" means the regulations published under Proclamation No. R. 117 of 20 November 1998, as amended by Proclamation No. R. 47 of 31 August 2005. Amendment of Regulation 5 of the Regulations 2. Regulation 5 of the Regulations is hereby amended— (a) by the substitution for subregulation (1) of the following subregulation: "(1) All allocations to which a political party is entitled as determined in terms of regulations 3 and 4, must be paid to the political party in question in four equal instalments, each within three months of the previous payment. The first instalment must be paid within four weeks of the beginning of the financial year in question."; and (b) by the deletion of subregulation (3).Amendment of Regulation 8 of the Regulations
3. Regulation 8 of the Regulations is hereby amended by the substitution for subregulation (2) of the following subregulation: "(2) The information required for the purposes of subregulation (1) must be furnished to the Commission by the accounting officer referred to in section 6(1) of the Act within three months after the end of the financial year in question.".Report to be considered.
National Council of Provinces
- Report of the Select Committee on Education and Recreation on the Bible Society of South Africa Act Repeal Bill [B 70B - 2008] (National Assembly – sec 75), dated 12 November 2008:
The Select Committee on Education and Recreation, having considered the
Bible Society of South Africa Act Repeal Bill [B 70B - 2008] (National
Assembly – sec 75) referred to it, reports that it has agreed to the
Bill with proposed amendments as follows:
CLAUSE 2
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On page 2, after line 13, to insert the following subsections:
(3) Any immovable property to be vested in the Bible Society of South Africa (Association incorporated under Section 21), Registration number 2008/007505/08 must be transferred by an endorsement on the title deed thereof or on the registered deed of lease thereof. (4) Any bond transferred to the Bible Society of South Africa (Association incorporated under Section 21), Registration number 2008/007505/08 must be transferred by an endorsement on the bond. (5) Any right or obligation accruing in terms of an unregistered document is transferred by operation of law without the need for a written cession or delegation. (6) Any expectance of the receipt by the Bible Society of donations or bequests in terms of a written instrument is transferred to the Bible Society of South Africa (Association incorporated under Section 21), Registration number 2008/007505/08. -
Report of the Select Committee on Public Services on the National Land Transport Bill [B 51B - 2008] (National Assembly – sec 76), dated 12 November 2008:
The Select Committee on Public Services, having considered the National Land Transport Bill [B 51B - 2008] (National Assembly – sec 76) referred to it, reports the Bill with amendments [B 51C - 2008].
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Report of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs on the Constitution Fourteenth Amendment Bill [B 62B-2008] (National Assembly sec 74), dated 12 November 2008.
The Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, having considered the Constitution Fourteenth Amendment Bill [B 62B-2008] (National Assembly – sec 74) referred to it, reports the Bill without amendment.