WEDNESDAY, 9 SEPTEMBER 2009 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 15:02.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

       LETTER OF THANKS FROM ARCHBISHOP EMERITUS DESMOND TUTU


                           (Announcement)

The SPEAKER: Hon members, you will recall that on 18 August 2009 the House took a decision to congratulate Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu on being awarded the United States Presidential Medal of Freedom on 12 August 2009. As is normal practice, I conveyed the sentiments of the House to Archbishop Emeritus Tutu, and I have now received the following response from the Archbishop, which I wish to read to the House. It reads:

Dear Mr Speaker I was touched to receive your letter informing me that the National Assembly had passed a resolution to congratulate me on being awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by President Obama. Would you kindly convey my appreciation to the Assembly, and please give my fondest love to your mother.

God bless.

Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu.

                      QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT

 Obstacles identified by Asgisa as factors opposing economic growth

1. Dr S M van Dyk (DA) asked the Deputy President:

 Whether the Government would add (a) crime, (b) the Eskom crisis and
 (c) land reform as three additional obstacles to the six that have
 already been identified by the Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative
 for South Africa (Asgisa) as factors opposing economic growth; if not,
 why not; if so, what are the relevant details?
                         NO1303E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Speaker and hon members. Hon Dr Van Dyk, I wish to reassure you that government remains committed to the fight against crime, to the rapid expansion of Eskom’s generation capacity and to the acceleration of the land reform programme.

The fight against crime is receiving intense and sustained attention. Apart from the fact that we have increased our real spending to fight crime and that we are increasing the number of police officers, we are also seeking ways to improve the effectiveness of our crime-fighting efforts.

We have made it quite clear that fighting crime is a top priority of this government. The Minister of Police and the commissioner have addressed this, and we will continue to update Parliament regarding our strategy and its outcomes.

Similarly, land reform is a key element of rural development and we have clearly indicated our commitment to addressing rural development as a top priority of this government. As hon members are aware, as an indication of the importance we give to this area, we have established a Ministry and a Department of Rural Development and Land Reform.

Eskom’s needs were anticipated in the Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative for South Africa, Asgisa, infrastructure programme. The investment programmes are in place, but we still have a responsibility as government to ensure that the investment programmes are undertaken with sufficient speed and in such a way that they do not undermine our commitment to sustainable development.

These three issues were clearly identified as priorities in the Medium-Term Strategic Framework issued by this government in July 2009. Electricity falls under strategic priority two, land reform and rural development are addressed in strategic priority three, and crime prevention is the focus of strategic priority six.

We pursue these commitments and proceed from the understanding that they help the country address specific challenges and also because, individually and collectively, combating crime, and having improved reliability of electricity supply and improved land reform and rural development programmes are central to accelerated and inclusive growth efforts. I thank you. [Applause.]

Dr S M VAN DYK: Thank you, hon Deputy President. I want to put the following to the Deputy President: Asgisa’s objective is to get the economy to a 6% growth rate, but, on the contrary, South Africa went the other way

• into an economic recession. And one cannot just put the blame for this on the world economic downturn. Now taking this into account, Deputy President, is Asgisa just another sterile policy document of government, like the other two ANC documents, namely Gear and Development and Underdevelopment - full of promises that will eventually disappear from the scene? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Dr Van Dyk. Asgisa isn’t a sterile programme. In fact, its infrastructure investment programme assisted a great deal in ensuring that this country did not sink into depression. When the world economic meltdown affected most economies, we were, in a sense, relatively better prepared than most countries. And, therefore, it had its value.

In the real world programmes must be dynamic, because nothing remains static. Matters, extraneous and internal – domestic, that is - continue to change. When you deal with such variables it is important to continue improving on the prescripts of any programme. So, Asgisa is no exception in that regard. It is not that it is a sterile programme. It has had it’s time, and was useful in getting us onto a better footing when this meltdown was visited on our country. Thank you.

Mr Z C NTULI: Ngiyabonga Somlomo, ngibonge uMongameli ngempendulo ecacile. [Thank you, Speaker, and thank you to the President as well for a clear response.]

Deputy President, the central challenges facing South Africa are to defeat poverty and substantially reduce the level of unemployment. In what way will the integrated programme on rural development, land reform and agrarian change be facilitated to ensure that these key components in our economic strategy deliver on this central challenge? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon member. Well, as I have already stated, the establishment of the Ministry and Department of Rural Development and Land Reform is meant to ensure that we tackle poverty, particularly in the rural areas, by ensuring that the requisite infrastructure is put in place, and that our rural communities are empowered to address the critical issue of food production and therefore contribute towards the food security requirements of the country, as well as stemming the tide of the influx of job seekers into urban areas, as we know that most of them end up in informal settlements in urban areas.

Therefore, it is important for us through the Ministry of Rural Development and Land Reform to ensure that there is, in fact, development taking place in rural communities.

The thrust of that approach is to ensure that we defeat poverty in rural areas and create environments in which rural communities can be engaged in gainful economic activity without having to migrate to urban areas. Thank you.

Mr S N SWART: Thank you, Speaker. Hon Deputy President, the ACDP and other parties called for crime to be added to the existing six binding constraints already identified by Asgisa for decisive and focused government intervention when Asgisa was first launched. This view was supported by Prof Stone of Howard University, one of the international experts commissioned by the National Treasury to study our economic growth potential, who stressed the benefits both for crime fighting and economic growth of including crime as part of Asgisa.

In addition, the World Economic Forum’s Global Competitiveness Report released yesterday confirms that:

The poor security situation remains another important obstacle to doing business in South Africa. This resulted in South Africa being ranked last out of 133 countries on the issue.

In the light of this, hon Deputy President, do you not believe that government should reconsider its position and include crime as an additional binding constraint to economic growth, particularly in view of the current recession and the need to improve our international competitiveness? [Time expired.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Swart. In principle, there is really no difficulty in adding crime as a binding constraint. My response was informed by the understanding that even if we added it to the Asgisa list of constraints, we would not be doing anything more than what we are already committed to doing to fight crime as a priority of this government. Therefore, there is no principle, really, for including crime on the list of the Asgisa constraints. Thank you.

Dr S M VAN DYK: Speaker, it’s me, Van Dyk, not Krumbock. Sorry, I pressed the wrong button.

Deputy President, in the light of the fact that you have indicated that crime and the Eskom crisis and backlogs in land reform will not become part of Asgisa, where then do you see these serious issues fitting into the broader economic crisis? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Van Dyk. The response that I have given to your question is informed by the fact that we don’t think any more value could be extracted by simply adding these elements to the Asgisa list of constraints, because they are already priorities in the programme of government. Therefore, they are already prioritised to receive dedicated, intensive, comprehensive attention. That is why it’s neither here nor there whether we add them. We could add them. As I said, there is really no ideological barrier for us to do that.

Government’s stance on the lifting of sanctions against President Robert Mugabe and his government

1. Rev K R J Meshoe (ACDP) asked the Deputy President: Whether the Government has called for the lifting of sanctions against President Robert Mugabe and his government; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details? NO1307E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, hon Meshoe, hon members, as you are all aware, the three main political parties in Zimbabwe – Zanu-PF and the two parts of the MDC - signed the Global Political Agreement, GPA, on 15 September last year as a way to resolve the political impasse that had beset that country. This agreement led to the establishment of an inclusive government in Zimbabwe, which is considerably broader than just President Mugabe’s government, to which the hon Meshoe refers in his question.

Article 4 of the Global Political Agreement contains the following, and I quote:

That all forms of measures and sanctions against Zimbabwe be lifted in order to facilitate a sustainable solution to the challenges that are currently facing Zimbabwe, and … that the parties commit themselves to working together in re-engaging the international community with a view to bringing to an end the country’s international isolation.

The agreement also provides for the support of SADC and the AU “in mobilising the international community to support the new government’s economic recovery plans and programmes, together with the lifting of sanctions taken against Zimbabwe and some of its leaders”. That is why the 29th Summit of heads of state and Government, which ended yesterday, again called on the international community to remove all forms of sanctions against Zimbabwe.

The answer to your question, hon Meshoe, is therefore in the affirmative. Yes, our government has also added its voice in calling for the lifting of sanctions against Zimbabwe.

Our government, together with SADC and the African Union, supports the implementation of the Global Political Agreement which includes the lifting of sanctions. It is our belief and that of SADC that the continued imposition of sanctions against Zimbabwe, as well as its isolation, weakens its ability to put itself on a path of economic recovery and political stability. To cite just two instances, as a response to calls for the lifting of sanctions, we are pleased that the British government will be injecting US$100 million into education, health, water and sanitation in Zimbabwe, and that the International Monetary Fund has sanctioned a US$510 million loan for Zimbabwe.

Therefore, as South Africa, we remain committed to assisting the Zimbabwean government to implement all provisions of the Global Political Agreement, including all outstanding matters in respect of which some difficulties still remain. Thank you. [Applause.] Rev K R J MESHOE: Thank you, Speaker. Thank you, Deputy President, for your reply. The ACDP is surprised by calls from African leaders, including our own President, for an end to the West’s sanctions against Zimbabwe. The fact is that the sanctions are not against the ordinary people of Zimbabwe, but against President Robert Mugabe, his inner circle and companies that are connected to top government leaders who are accused of serious human rights abuses against innocent people, whose main crime is to support the MDC.

The ACDP believes that SADC, as a region, has failed the people of Zimbabwe by focusing on protecting and defending President Mugabe rather than demanding that he respect the rule of law, justice, democracy and human rights in his country.

While we acknowledge that progress has been made by the inclusive government, we nevertheless want to know from the Deputy President why our government could, with a clear conscience, make calls for the lifting of sanctions against a man who has caused so much of the suffering of his own people. Does our government not care about what happens to the ordinary, poor, elderly and women of Zimbabwe who continue to be intimidated and tortured? [Time expired.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Meshoe, SADC has taken a very responsible approach to the difficulties in Zimbabwe. We do know that some in the past called for more force to be used against Zimbabwe. The truth is that problems are never solved by waging wars. That is an illusion.

We know that those who are militarily superior always delude themselves into believing that it is possible, through military invasions, to solve problems. But the SADC view is that only dialogue solves problems.

This call for the lifting of sanctions is not aimed at protecting and defending President Mugabe as an individual. It is meant to attract the necessary investments into Zimbabwe so that their economic recovery plan can take effect. We know that once the economy recovers and political stability is consolidated, the SADC region as a whole can only benefit from such developments. That is really the rationale behind SADC’s stance.

You know, President Mugabe is an individual. He’s now at an advanced age … [Interjections.] It’s not helpful to devote all of our efforts to dealing with him as an individual. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr K S MUBU: Hon Speaker, I thank the Deputy President for the reply. The outstanding issues towards the full implementation of the GPA include the appointment of the governor of the reserve bank, the appointment of the attorney-general, media reforms and the continuing general violation of human rights and the rule of law. What timeframes do you foresee for the full implementation of the GPA to take place? These issues are serious impediments to peace and security in Zimbabwe, and to our own peace as well.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, as far as we are concerned, these are issues which should have been addressed sooner than yesterday, because there is really no advantage to be gained by not addressing them. That is the reason, as part and parcel of the mechanisms of implementing this Global Political Agreement, that an all-inclusive structure, Jomic, the Joint Monitoring and Implementation Committee, was established to deal with these kinds of issues, in order to ensure that the detention of people and the abduction of citizens no longer happen.

We have spelled out in very clear terms to all parties concerned in Zimbabwe that indeed, when the international community, for example Prime Minister Gordon Brown, President Obama and the European Union, say that they want to see progress, these are the issues that the Zimbabwean political leadership ought to address to ensure that investors come to the party. So, as far as we are concerned, this is something that must have happened sooner than yesterday.

Mr L S NGONYAMA: Hon Speaker, hon Deputy President, as the state of affairs in Zimbabwe is not in the interests of the region, I suppose that the South African government has to invoke a number of extraordinary measures to try to resolve this impasse. Are there any plans in that respect, hon Deputy President?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, hon Ngonyama. The SADC leadership, which had been meeting in Kinshasa until yesterday, has decided that the SADC secretariat should, on an ongoing basis and in a dynamic fashion, monitor resolutions to all these outstanding issues. If that does not produce the desired results, an extraordinary summit will be convened, focusing specifically on ensuring that more meat is added to the processes of moving Zimbabwe forward.

As I’ve stated, there is really no advantage to be gained by maintaining the status quo. Zimbabweans do understand that in fact there will be no second chance; this is their last chance to pull themselves out of the morass in which they find themselves. Thank you.

Mr H T MAGAMA: Hon Deputy President, noting that Zimbabwe comes from a period of extreme hostilities marked by human rights abuses and so on, these and other factors led to, amongst other things, the collapse of the economy and the country’s democratic system of government. However, since then significant progress has been made, notably there is dialogue among Zimbabweans themselves and the Global Political Agreement is in place – of course, with outstanding issues – and there’s a functional, inclusive government that is working very hard towards bringing about unity and normalcy in that country.

In spite of these developments, some still insist that sanctions must be maintained and/or intensified, and that South Africa in particular must use its so-called “economic muscle” to force President Mugabe into submission. Is there, indeed, any merit whatsoever in that argument? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, we take our cue from the political parties in Zimbabwe and I think that the calls for the maintenance of sanctions have subsided. That is why I was a bit surprised when hon Meshoe seemed not to agree with that. The answer, in short, is that continued calls for sanctions would serve no useful purpose and would not in any way assist the ordinary people in Zimbabwe. Thank you.

Government’s progress in halving the rate of new HIV/Aids infections; and outcomes of Sanac summit

1. Mr M B Goqwana (ANC) asked the Deputy President:

 (a)What progress has the Government made in achieving the target of
 halving the rate of new HIV/Aids infections by 2011 as stated in the
 HIV/Aids and STI Strategic Plan for South Africa 2007-11 and (b) what
 are the outcomes of the recently held summit of the SA National Aids
 Council, Sanac, Women’s Sector?    NO1304E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, hon Speaker. Hon Goqwana, we are generally encouraged by the commitment prevailing within the various sectors of the SA National Aids Council, Sanac, in implementing the HIV and Aids and Sexually Transmitted Infections National Strategic Plan. We regard the prevailing spirit as essential to a concerted effort of ridding the country and our people of the scourge of HIV and Aids.

With regard to the prevention of new HIV infections, government and all Sanac sectors are rolling out targeted prevention programmes to ensure that those who are HIV-negative remain negative. Examples of these are: social mobilisation; information, communication and education programmes; risk- reduction campaigns; the provision of male and female condoms; the treatment of sexually transmitted infections; and programmes on the prevention of mother-to-child transmission.

In addition, Sanac has initiated a consultation process around medical male circumcision. This consultation is particularly important for a number of reasons, including cultural practices. Sanac is also discussing how to make female condoms more readily available.

The recently released Human Sciences Research Council report on the third national HIV survey, that was conducted last year, found that our HIV prevalence rate has levelled off at 10,9% for people aged two years and older. Prevalence has also declined among children aged two to 14 from 5,6% in 2002 to 2,5% in 2008. In addition, the survey found that new infections or the incidence thereof has declined among teenagers aged 15 to 19. These results support our view that the concerted efforts of government and other Sanac sectors are achieving results.

Sanac is currently undertaking a midterm review of the national strategic plan in order to assess progress and to consider what improvements can be made in order to ensure that our targets for 2011 are met. The results of this review are expected in the first quarter of next year and will be made available to members of this House.

In response to the second part of the question, the recently conducted Sanac Women’s Sector Prevention Summit, held two weeks ago, explored various HIV prevention strategies for women and girls.

The summit provided a platform for women to actively engage with current research initiatives in the area of prevention. Issues of access to existing and new HIV prevention technologies by South African women were also discussed.

Going forward, the summit resolved, among other things, that the sector would look at interventions on adolescent health and how they could champion this programme in collaboration with other stakeholders; that there needed to be further discussion on the issue of the decriminalisation of sex work; and that working together with the men’s sector and other key role-players, the women’s sector would become involved in efforts to address the problems experienced by young girls as a result of practices such as ukuthwala [abduction of a young woman for the purpose of marriage] in the Lusikisiki area of the Eastern Cape province. I thank you.

Mr M B GOQWANA: Thank you, hon Speaker. Hon Deputy President, I thank you very much for what you said. I definitely think we are going to be able to achieve the 50% goal.

With regard to HIV/Aids being an infectious disease, we have neighbouring countries that might not be doing exactly what we are doing, and there is a lot of movement between countries. I would like to ask the Deputy President what his thoughts are about that in terms of ensuring that we attain the 50% goal, irrespective of the fact that there is movement between countries.

My second question concerns circumcision. It is said that 60% of circumcised males won’t get infected. But isn’t that going to mean that people will not know whether or not it is safe for the other 40% of men who are circumcised to have sex without protection? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Speaker, with regard to movement among countries, unfortunately we do not have a medical examination as a requirement at our ports of entry for those who come into our country. Of course, we have to rely on the efforts within SADC in ensuring that our people are well informed about how to prevent the spread of HIV.

Secondly, with regard to circumcision, I think, from a communications point of view, that it is very important not to miscommunicate the effect or positive impact of circumcision in terms of its contribution towards prevention. I think we should ensure that we don’t create the illusion that those who are circumcised are therefore fully protected against infection. The message has to go out very carefully so that we don’t cause that confusion. Thank you.

Mrs C DUDLEY: Thank you, hon Speaker. Hon Deputy President, is antiretroviral therapy, or ART, being considered as a means of HIV prevention in South Africa, as was proposed by a WHO official at an Aids forum in Cape Town in July?

Statistically, each person living with HIV infects one person every one-and- a-quarter years and, since the current life expectancy after infection is 10 years, seven new infections occur for each initial person living with the virus.

Since ART can lower viral load - the single greatest risk factor for HIV transmission - to undetectable levels, it should also severely decrease transmission rates, offering hope in eliminating this scourge from South Africa. Has this theory been discussed within Sanac or at Cabinet level, and where does government currently stand on this issue? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: These matters, as you well know, hon member, continue to serve on the agenda of Sanac. Yes, indeed, they were discussed, and Sanac is quite open-minded. We accept that there is no cure and that all advances in research ought to be received very positively. Therefore our attitude is a positive one. We accept the recommendations of the WHO in this regard. Thank you.

Mr M WATERS: Mr Speaker, Deputy President, the DA welcomes any steps to reduce the number of people dying from HIV/Aids, given the 10 years of denialism that we have recently had.

But we are concerned that we are basing our programmes on completely inadequate and outdated information. For example, even though it is nearly the end of 2009, the annual antenatal clinic survey of 2008 has still not been released. This is one of the most important sources of information we have on how the Aids pandemic is progressing. The DA has, for the third year in a row, submitted a Promotion of Access to Information Act application for this report to be released. We urge the government to respond to this request so that all South Africans can be properly informed about the epidemic.

And I ask you, Deputy President: Where is this report, and can you clarify what the reasons are for the continued delay in the release of the survey? Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Waters. I undertake to find out where this report is and ensure that it is made available. Thank you.

Government’s approach in strengthening and advancing the principles of the AU and the objectives of Nepad

1. Ms K R Magau (ANC) asked the Deputy President:

   What approach will the Government use in the next five years in pursuit of strengthening and advancing (a) the founding principles of the African Union and (b) the objectives of the New Partnership for Africa’s Development, Nepad, in building a unified and developed African continent? NO1305E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, hon members, a strong African Union is essential for Africa’s unity and development. South Africa will continue to advocate for a gradual process of continental integration using the regional economic communities as building blocks towards the establishment of the African Union government.

This entails the harmonisation of the programmes and policies of regional economic communities, and we are pleased that progress is being made with regard to integration within and among the Southern African Development Community, SADC; the Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa, Comesa; and the East African Community, EAC.

We are committed to supporting the strengthening of the African Union and its structures. Amongst other things, this is evident from South Africa’s engagement in ensuring the establishment of the African Union organs, namely the African Investment Bank, the African Central Bank, the African Monetary Bank, and the African Court of Justice and Human Rights. In this regard, it must be mentioned that Ministers of justice and attorneys- general of the AU have finalised the major instrument for the African Court of Justice and the African Court on Human and Peoples’ Rights.

South Africa has nominated and was able to get the endorsement of Justice Bernard Ngoepe, the Judge President of the Transvaal, to serve in the human rights section of the court. South Africa will continue to work with the African Union Commission towards transforming the Pan-African Parliament from being an advisory body to a legislative one. In order to advance the founding principles of the African Union, South Africa will continue to support the activities of the economic, social and cultural council with a view to ensuring that all the peoples of Africa participate in, and take ownership of, African Union activities and processes.

On the second aspect of the question, South Africa will continue to support the implementation of Nepad - the New Partnership for Africa’s Development

• as a blueprint for Africa’s socioeconomic development. Nepad is part of the African Union’s programmes to intensify the struggle against poverty and underdevelopment on the continent.

In this regard, South Africa will continue to support the integration of Nepad into the AU’s structures and processes. We are committed to meeting our own obligations that derive from the African Peer Review Mechanism, and we will continue to encourage other African Union member states to accede to the African Peer Review Mechanism and implement the outcome of the country reviews.

South Africa will continue to support the implementation of Nepad’s programmes and projects at a regional level through the regional indicative strategic development plan and at a national level. We are pleased that at the 11th summit of heads of state and governments participating in the African Peer Review Mechanism held in Sirte, Libya, at the end of June this year, Cape Verde acceded to the African Peer Review Mechanism as the 29th member.

South Africa will continue to support the call for the international community to comply with their commitments made at various international fora aimed at assisting African countries to achieve the Millennium Development Goals within the framework of Nepad. Thank you.

Ms K R MAGAU: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Thank you, Deputy President, for a comprehensive response. Deputy President, you have reiterated that South Africa will continue to advance in a gradual process of continental integration using regional economic communities as building blocks for the African Union government. However, Deputy President, the recent initialling of the interim economic partnership agreements by some members of the region, that is of SADC, who are also members of the customs union, is threatening our own integration as a region.

Therefore, my question is: How do we intend to manage the process of finalising these negotiations, going forward, to ensure that harmonised regional integration is realised? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank very much, hon Speaker. As South Africa, we are really not unduly concerned that some of the SADC member countries have signed agreements with the European Union. What really is of concern to us is the type and amount of pressure that is being applied to get them to accede to such agreements.

As a response, the Southern African Customs Union, Sacu, is having a strategy session later this month to look at the issue so that we do not weaken the region by signing agreements that will undermine the integrity of the region. Thank you.

Mr S MOKGALAPA: Thank you, Mr Speaker, and Deputy President. South Africa contributes a large portion to the AU budget. Almost 15% of the AU budget comes from South Africa, and therefore we believe that we should have a greater influence on this body.

What is the government doing to encourage other African countries to make similar contributions to the AU, and what proportion of the AU senior staff positions are held by South African citizens in the AU?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, hon member. The matter of contributions made to the AU reflects the strength and size of the member countries. For a while now, this has been a source of great weakness in our discussions with other member countries. The approach has been one that sought to improve on the capacities of all of these countries by removing the bottlenecks in integrated trade within the economic communities; hence Comesa, the Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa, the East African Community and SADC have had summits looking at interconnectivity as a way of ensuring that these countries are placed in a position where they can afford their own fees.

We know that some other well-resourced countries use resources to extract undue influence, for instance, by paying for the weaker countries. That is part of the problem that we are trying to address at this point in time. It’s a challenge, but we can only succeed in addressing it by strengthening and ensuring that we do not advance alone and thereby become an island of progress in a desert of backwardness and underdevelopment. That is how we are approaching it. Thank you.

Mr L S NGONYAMA: Hon Speaker and hon Deputy President, on the economic partnership agreements, I think we all agree that these could pose a serious threat to the region if we don’t take them seriously and act promptly. Is there a specific road map that the Deputy President can take us through to try and address this issue, because it is indeed a serious issue?

With regard to Nepad, there is relative silence about it from the current leaders of the continent. Is there a way that we can be taken on board in terms of the specific programmes that current leaders of the African continent will be embarking on in advancing the cause of Nepad?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon member. With regard to the economic partnership agreements, as I have indicated, Sacu will be meeting at the end of this month to develop a well-co-ordinated and comprehensive response to these agreements to ensure that we interact with the EU as a region rather than just as weak individual countries.

Regarding Nepad, the efforts at this point in time are to ensure that Nepad becomes part of the African Union. The current chairperson of Nepad is the Prime Minister of Ethiopia, Meles Zenawi, who has been championing the call for investments in infrastructure on the continent. He attends, in his capacity as Nepad chairperson, all the G20 meetings, and has been able to eloquently promote the interests and objectives of Nepad at fora such as those. Thank you.

Mrs F HAJAIG: Speaker, first of all, I would like to thank Your Excellency the Deputy President for a very comprehensive reply. However, one needs to ask the question: Have the Nepad programmes across Africa really taken off as envisaged?

Some of the projects identified are short of finance, while some countries do not comply or co-operate fully, being afraid of losing some of their sovereignty. What can the African Union do concretely to ensure that commitments are honoured and that the African agenda remains on track? Just as an example, many of the countries of the AU do not pay their levies on time, and, as a result, many of the different organs of the AU are unable to work efficiently because they do not have an adequate budget. Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, this is a weakness that is of great concern to all leaders on the continent. Other than ensuring that there is integrated economic development, most of the member countries on the continent rely on donor funding even for their budgets.

I don’t know how much members know about the efforts of a “Brother Leader” of the Jamahiriya in trying to get himself designated the king of kings in Africa. He entertains such grandiose aims because of the fact that, in the main, he has been very generous in contributing towards some of these projects, and, at the same time, in also trying to determine the context and direction of what happens in such projects. That is why when poorer countries run out of resources, if they don’t vote for him, he can simply close the tap. That’s a challenge that we have to deal with.

On a more positive note, as I have already said, the chair of Nepad, Prime Minister Zenawi, has utilised every opportunity in ensuring that all the commitments that were made at Gleneagles and elsewhere are met to ensure that there is enough investment in infrastructure on the continent. Thank you.

                             GOVERNANCE
                              Cluster 3

MINISTERS:

Particulars regarding number of demonstrations against alleged lack of service delivery, demands made by demonstrators, and loss suffered by the State

1. Mr J H van der Merwe (IFP) asked the Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs:

   (a) How many demonstrations against an alleged lack of service delivery took place during the period 1 January 2009 up to the latest specified date for which information is available, (b) what were the demands made during each demonstration and (c) what was the estimated loss suffered by the state during this period? NO1093E

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Speaker, about 52 demonstrations took place between 1 January 2009 and 30 August

1. The number of demonstrations increased around July. There were about 29 demonstrations in July and 15 in August. Out of 283 municipalities, demonstrations took place in about 31 municipalities. The majority of these demonstrations took place in the metro of Cape Town - 11 of them. The main issues that were raised were acceleration in the development of housing, the eradication of corruption, nepotism and fraud, and the provision of basic services like water, sanitation and electricity, as well as the creation of jobs. The youth also raised the issue of skills. Another matter that was raised was the issue of the review of boundaries. People also requested that those who were arrested as a result of protests be released. Those were the demands that were raised.

You can see that these issues are issues that occur in all spheres of government. The majority of them relate to provincial and national government. These issues are not only with regard to municipalities.

Millions of rands were lost in state property where clinics, schools, council properties and councillors’ houses were burned. Thank you very much, House Chairperson.

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Chairperson, I am bit surprised by the answer of the hon Minister. This is because he tried initially to pass the buck to the DA. But then later he admitted that the problems were basically those of the provincial and national government, which is the government of this hon Minister.

Colleagues, we have abundant proof now of the failure of this government in respect of service delivery to the poorest of the poor. Saying there were 51 demonstrations over a few months means that there were two demonstrations per week. I want to ask the hon Minister if, after 15 years he hasn’t been able to solve this issue, doesn’t he think it would be better for this government to spend money on providing essential services to the poorest of the poor rather than spending millions on cars for Ministers? [Applause.]

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: House Chairperson, I said that most of the protests happened in the Cape Town metro municipality. [Interjections.] In these areas people were raising the issue of basic local government services that were supposed to have been delivered. So I’m not sure how Mr Van der Merwe came to the conclusion that in Cape Town these issues were based on provincial or national government requirements, because I have talked about the overall situation of what is happening. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Order, hon members! Please take note of the decorum of the House.

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: It is quite interesting that temperatures rise when I engage on these questions. [Interjections.]

These are statistics. Nothing has been manipulated in this case. Therefore, to us it is very clear that these matters require all of us to rise above petty politics … [Interjections.] … and not to abuse issues of governance. This is so that we are able to focus collectively on delivering services to our people. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr W P DOMAN: Chairperson, of 31 municipalities, there was one protest in the Cape Town metro that was organised by the ANC, but there were spontaneous instances of unrest because of poor service delivery in the 30 ANC-controlled municipalities. Our leader and a number of us visited almost all these hot spots, and we could see that there was no service delivery. It is clear to us that the ANC is not ready to govern in those municipalities.

Mr Minister, seeing that a municipality needs skilled and experienced officials to deliver services, would you agree - and give out this message

• that the ANC must start to appoint people on merit and not employ cadres and, in some instances, have positions vacant for long periods because there is no cadre available? [Applause.]

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: House Chair, I think my colleague the hon Doman would agree with me that the majority of these protests happened in the metro of Cape Town - the only one that is under the DA. These are facts and figures. Therefore, this can’t be changed and manipulated.

On the issue of appointments, I don’t think that when you live in a glass house you can throw stones. This is because if you look at this issue of appointments, the DA - where it is governing - has removed everybody who was appointed by the ANC at a senior level. The worst example is the removal of Shanaaz Majiet, a highly capable woman with a disability who ran the provincial department of local government and housing in this province. She did nothing except be appointed by the ANC. Therefore, they can’t stand here and throw stones when they live in glass houses. Thank you very much, Chair. [Applause.]

Rev K R J MESHOE: Chairperson, the common theme and the predominant issues at the heart of the recent protests, which were marked by violent confrontations with the police, were local government’s incompetence, cronyism and corruption, and the lack of water, sanitation, electricity and social services. The number of service delivery protests so far this year has surpassed all the service delivery protests of 2008. What we want to know, hon Minister, is why government, in many instances, seems to wait for violent demonstrations and protests to take place before they ensure that acceptable and quality service delivery takes place? Thank you.

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: House Chair, I think as South Africans we must really look at the situation of local government as an opportunity to unite the nation, reconcile and work together so that we don’t spend time working against something. We must spend all our time working for something so that we can rally around ensuring that local government is dealt with in a particular way. Therefore, hon Meshoe, we must agree that even you must condemn violence as a form of protest. This is something that is not acceptable, no matter how legitimate the demands may be. The issue of violence must be condemned completely.

On the issue of service delivery, we are the first to say that we have delivered a lot in this country, but that we have not actually achieved what we want to achieve. We believe that together we will be able to ensure that we do more when we go forward on the issues of service delivery. Therefore, in that respect, we think we must be governed by certain values and norms - have a value system as a nation - so that regardless of whether a municipality is under the DA, the ANC or the IFP or possibly even under Cope, we agree that these values govern all of us irrespective of the party in power at a given time in those areas. Thank you very much, Chair. [Applause.]

Mr T BOTHA: I think I am covered, Chairperson. [Laughter.]

Mr M L FRANSMAN: Minister, currently in Cape Town there are water cuts taking place in Mitchells Plain and Khayelitsha in particular. I have been deployed recently to Mitchells Plain. I just want to know if it is possible for the Minister, seeing that the DA is governing the City of Cape Town and that they have used the votes of our people and now water cuts are starting to take shape, to come to those constituencies, both Khayelitsha and Mitchells Plain, and accompany me on the issue of water cuts? [Applause.]

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Hon Fransman, one of the most important things that people have been raising is that this leadership, particularly on the side of this House, doesn’t respect or observe the Constitution of this country. The issue of water cuts is unconstitutional. This means that any party that cuts water is violating the highest law of the land, which is the Constitution. [Applause.] I will gladly go with you to Mitchells Plain and the areas that are affected, hon Fransman.

Mr R A P TROLLIP: Chairperson, on a point of order: I think the hon Fransman does not have his facts right. No water is being cut. [Interjections.] The minimum basic allowance is being allowed and thereafter it is cut. Everybody is entitled to water in the City of Cape Town – free basic water.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Order! That was not a point of order, hon Trollip. Hon Minister, continue.

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, House Chair. You can see that when we speak, temperatures rise; emotions run very high. [Interjections.] What is important then is that we are saying we will be able to go with you to see what is happening. But what we are not going to allow in this country is that any party abuses its power to violate the Constitution. We will act against those and act decisively. Thank you very much, Chair. [Applause.]

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Chairperson, on a point of order: In the previous question, the hon Minister was not given an opportunity to answer item (c), namely: What was the estimated loss suffered by the state during this period?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Order! Well, probably when he deals with the other questions he will use some latitude to deal with that particular issue. I have already moved on to the next question, and it is still him on the platform.

Outcome of forensic investigation into contract with construction firm

1. Mr P J Groenewald (FF Plus) asked the Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs:

 (1)    Whether he will announce the result of a forensic investigation
      into a contract with a certain construction firm (details
      furnished); if not, why not; if so, when;


 (2)    whether he will make a statement on the matter?         NW477E

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: House Chairperson, the department has conducted an assessment of the capacity and capability of the departments of local government at provincial level. We looked at the structural capacity of the organisations, the capability of individuals employed and the systems that are utilised in municipalities. What came out very clearly is that in the provinces, 90% of the budget on average is taken up by the departments of health, education and social development. So you are left with 10% that you can play around with. Of this 10%, 3,5% is utilised for local government. This tells us that there is underresourcing.

The other thing we discovered is that only 2% of employees are above the level of deputy director. What this tells us is that there is incapacity in terms of skills and the knowledge base. We also discovered that there was no monitoring and oversight capability for municipalities in provinces. Therefore, we are involved in a programme of capacitating provincial government departments that are dealing with local government to ensure that there are good systems and that institutional arrangements are good. Departments of local government particularly must be regionalised so that they can undertake their tasks and responsibilities. And, in that respect, also develop the law in terms of sections 139 and 154 of the Constitution in order for people to intervene. These are the measures we are taking to ensure that provinces play their appropriate role in supporting municipalities. Thank you very much, House Chair.

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Voorsitter, ek wil vir die agb Minister sê dat ek dink dat hy die kat aan die stert beet het. Hy het nie die vraag verstaan nie. Die vraag wat ek vra is in verband met ’n forensiese ondersoek wat gedoen is in die Stadsraad van Matlosana. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, I want to tell the hon Minister that I believe he is missing the mark. He did not understand the question. The question I am posing relates to a forensic investigation that was done in the Matlosana City Council.]

The investigation has been completed, hon Minister. The forensic report is there. In fact, it was completed in 2007. But they don’t want to reveal the outcome of the investigation. It cost the taxpayers of Matlosana, which includes Klerkdorp, Orkney, Stilfontein and Hartebeesfontein, more than R1 million for the forensic report. Now the hon Minister comes here and tells us about what is going on in the province. I know that the North West is a big problem for you. But if you can solve this problem, there will be great progress in your efforts to reduce problems in the North West. So, with great respect, I did not receive an answer.

My question is: Why is the report not revealed even to councillors and to the public? The taxpayer’s money was used in this regard, and the Constitution says that we have the right to information and to the findings of that report. Can I get an answer on that, please? Thank you.

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: House Chairperson, this is the first this matter of Matlosana has come to us, as we have just heard it from the hon Groenewald. What is important is that we appreciate the fact that Members of Parliament are able to come forward on misdemeanours that are happening in their own areas. This is a good thing and a good start because all of us must be able to come forward, rise above petty politics and deal with issues of good governance. What we can promise we will do is that we will go and get the information you are requesting to ensure that we can give you answers to the questions you are raising.

But what is important is that we want to ensure that there is transparency and openness in local government – this is so that when you bring light, darkness disappears. People will not have an opportunity to do things we think are wrong. We are going to follow up on the matter, and we will come back to you, hon member.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr Chairperson, on a point of order: These questions are tabled well beforehand. The Minister knows exactly what the questions are. He shouldn’t then come to the House and by way of answer indicate that he will investigate. He should have come to the House with the answers.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Hon Minister, I think that is a point taken. I think in future you must remember that tabled questions are known. But we will obviously give you the opportunity to come back to the House and give a definite answer to the question because it was sent to the office for response.

Ms M WENGER: Chairperson, hon Minister, the DA is of the opinion that the Minister and his department are not doing enough to stop these kinds of unscrupulous practices. Has the Minister considered a blacklist that could be implemented as a matter of urgency? This should then be circulated to all spheres of government so that we can stop further developments like that. And could the Minister please tell us how many other municipalities are being investigated for the same behaviour? Thank you.

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: House Chair, on the issue of municipalities that are being investigated, we have been involved in an extensive process of assessing all municipalities. We will ensure that we have a report on all municipalities by the middle of October. If the question you are raising can be asked at that time, we will be able to give you an accurate response in terms of municipalities that are being investigated at this point in time.

The most important thing to us is to ensure that we come up with appropriate solutions to specific problems and challenges that are experienced in various municipalities. We hope that in so doing, we will be able to provide information about the state of municipalities to this House once that process has been concluded. Thank you.

Mr W P DOMAN: Chairperson, with these forensic investigations, we often find that councillors are the people that transgress. I must commend this Minister. He has taken a very strong stance on corruption and maladministration by councillors. I want to ask the Minister whether he agrees that parties should discipline their councillors and not wait for the laws of this country to kick in, and that they should act and intervene when their members transgress.

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, hon Doman. In fact, that’s what I have said. I said that for us to move forward in South Africa, we need a value system - something that binds us. As you have been saying in respect of corrupt situations, when there is a “corruptee”, there is always a corrupter. This means that even members of civil society - not only in terms of communities, but also in terms of businesspeople - must be discouraged from getting involved in issues of corruption. This is because it takes two to tango in these cases. [Applause.]

Therefore, we are saying that all political parties must rally around this. As we do the assessments, hon Doman, we will look at what the value systems must be that must drive governance in South Africa so that all of us can sing from the same hymnbook going forward. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Mr P J GROENEWALD: Chair, I want to ask the hon Minister if I can get a commitment from him on a date when he come back to us on this matter, because the report has been available since 2007. If he goes to his office now, he can phone the executive mayor … Well, if I look at the time, I suppose he has gone home already. [Laughter.] He can phone the offices …

Mr H P CHAUKE: Chair, I think it is really unfair when the Minister has made a commitment in the House that he will come back with a report, that the member then stands up and says he must go to his office and bring the report here. It is very unfair, and it is not within the Rules of Parliament.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Order! There is nothing unfair about that, hon Chauke. Let the question be concluded.

Mr P J GROENEWALD: Chairperson, I can say to the hon member that Christmas is on its way; don’t worry. [Laughter.]

Can I get a commitment from the hon Minister on when I will get the answers to my questions, please?

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: House Chairperson, what we can say is that we will be able to give the report to the hon member very soon. [Interjections.] [Laughter.] This therefore means that as soon as it is practically possible he will get the report. Thank you very much.

Particulars regarding (i) the transformation of traditional authorities in line with enabling legislation; and (ii) the receipt of financial grants from government

1. Mr M Nonkonyana (ANC) asked the Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs:

   (1) Whether his department has embarked on a nationwide programme of transforming traditional authorities in line with the enabling legislation; if not, why not; if so, how many (a) traditional councils have been transformed so far and (b)(i) traditional leaders and (ii) traditional councillors have received training in line with the national programme of support that was launched by his department in 2007;

   (2) whether traditional councils receive financial grants from the Government; if not, why not; if so, what amount was budgeted for this purpose in the 2009-10 financial year? NO1289E

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: House Chairperson, on the issue raised here, we, as government, have agreed that we will take these matters forward to ensure that we deal with these municipalities. The issue that has been raised is an issue around traditional leadership. The department has involved itself on these issues and, going forward, it is going to ensure that it complies with the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework.

The only areas in which there are no structures of traditional leadership are Gauteng and the Western Cape, for obvious reasons. Gauteng has only two traditional leaders. Therefore, in terms of the law, if you have fewer than three traditional leaders, you are able to allow them to come directly to the national House. So then you cannot have a House in Gauteng. We don’t have a House in the Western Cape either.

The issue of the transformation of these institutions is something we are looking forward to. Of about 845 traditional councils in this country, only 383 have been transformed nationwide.

On the issue of capacity-building and training, I can report that we have trained 222 traditional leaders. We are looking forward to continuing to train them all to ensure that they are capacitated going forward.

Provincial governments are providing grants. If I were to tabulate them here right now, it would take us the whole day. We will give a copy to the member, the hon Nonkonyana, in order to save time. Thank you very much.

Mnu M NONKONYANA: Sihlalo, namalungu onke abekekileyo mandibulele kakhulu kuMphathiswa wesizwe ngempendulo, kodwa ukuze umnqwazi wam uqine ndinga ndingabeka ngolu hlobo Mphathiswa. Inkqubo yolawulo yobukhosi beli lizwe yadlakazeliswa kakhulu ngamakoloniyali ukufika kwawo apha e-Afrika, ingakumbi oorhulumente bengcinezelo, ethe ke i-ANC eyakhiwa ngamakhosi, yabona ukuba makuliwe naloo ngcinezelo ukuze nolawulo lwasebukhosini lufumane indawo kwinkululeko yabantu boMzantsi Afrika.

Nantsi ke imibuzo endicinga ukuba ungakhe uphinde unabe kuyo ukuze uqine umnqwazi. Okokuqala, njengokuba usitsho ukuba uMthetho sawupasisa apha ngowama-2003, kutheni ingathi le nguqu ngoku iyacotha, ihamba ngonyawo lonwabu nje? Okwesibini, ukuqeqeshwa kwabantwana begazi, iikumkani neenkosi kunye namaphakathi azo – ooceba ukutsho oko – ingaba iGunya-bantu leCandelo leMfundo noQeqesho lorhulumente wasekhaya liyayazi na inkqubo yolawulo lwakwantu okanye i-Traditional System of Governance ngabula makhumsha, ukuze kaloku bangafundiswa laa nkqubo bangayaziyo yaseNtshona? Okwesithathu nokokugqibela, phaya eMpuma Koloni siyabulela ukuba urhulumente we-ANC enze kakuhle kangaka kumaphondo aliqela eMzantsi Afrika ukuba la mabhunga obukhosi anikwe inkxaso ngonyaka. Apho bendithunywe khona yi-ANC akukho nesenti emdaka ethe yafunyanwa. Ingaba ke iMpuma Koloni yenze ntoni na yona yodwa?

MPHATHISWA WORHULUMENTE WOBAMBISWANO KUNYE NEMICIMBI YEZEMVELI: Nkosi Nonkonyana, mandibulele ndisithi nam ndivumelana nawe kwinto yokuba ukuhlonitsha kwamakhosi, isidima nesithozela sawo asikho ngendlela ekufuneka sibe yiyo. Yinto ke leyo esizama ukuba siyilungise ukwenzela ukuba amakhosi ahlonitshwe, abe nendawo yawo njengabantu bomthonyama. Enye ke into, kumba wokuba senza njani ukuya phambili kwicala lokuba baqeqeshwe aba bantu nokuba iGunya-bantu leCandelo leMfundo noQeqesho liyazazi na ezi zinto, mandithi ewe, kodwa ke akuthi ncakasana. Sifuna ukulincedisa ngoba iindlela zethu zokwenza izinto ngokwesintu zaye zacinezelwa zabulawa ngamakoloniyali. Ngolu hlobo sithi ke ngoku mazibuyele emakhaya ukwenzela ukuba sikwazi ukwenza izinto zethu zesintu ngendlela yethu size sihlonipheke nathi, kwaye ungazifihli xa usenza izinto ngendlela yesintu. Mandiqukumbele ke ngelithi, kwicala lokuba amaphondo ayakwazi ukuxhasa amakhosi nezindlu zawo kusini na, ewe ndivumelana nawe ukuba eMpuma Koloni ikho ingxaki, nento yokuba kwenzeke inguqu ihamba kade. Ngolo hlobo ke nenkxaso ayifumaneki kakuhle. Zizinto esizihlengahlengisayo ke ezo esiza kuzilungisa. Siza kuqinisekisa ukuba lo nyaka uzayo uyakuphela zonke izinto zihamba kakuhle kwicala lobukhosi. Ndiyabulela. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[Mr M NONKONYANA: Chairperson and all hon members, let me thank the hon Minister for the response, but in order for me to be satisfied, hon Minister, I would phrase my question this way. The programme of traditional governance in this country was annihilated through subjugation by the colonial government when they arrived in Africa, especially the apartheid regime. The ANC, which was founded by traditional leaders, decided to fight against that oppression so that traditional governance can also have a place in the freedom of South Africans.

Here are the questions on which you could elaborate in order to be convincing. Firstly, as you have mentioned, the Act was promulgated in

1. Why is the transformation seemingly very slow, moving at a snail’s pace? Secondly, with regard to the training of traditional leaders, kings, chiefs and their counsels – councillors in this case - does the local government Seta know the traditional system of governance, as the learned people would put it, so that people are not taught a Western programme that is not known to them? Finally, as the Eastern Cape we commend the ANC-led government for doing well in various provinces in South Africa in that the councils for traditional leaders receive funds that are annually appropriated for them. Where the ANC sent me, not even a cent was received. What has the Eastern Cape done to be singled out?

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Nkosi Nonkonyana, let me thank you and agree with you that the respect, dignity and honour bestowed on our traditional leaders is not as it should be. That is something we are trying to rectify so that traditional leaders can be respected and have their place as indigenous people. With regard to the issue of how we are training these people, and does the Seta know about these things, let me say yes, but to a limited extent. We want to assist them because our traditional ways of doing things were looked down upon and destroyed by the colonial government. In this manner we are saying it is time to revive them so that we can do things our traditional way and be respected, and one does not have to hide one’s traditional way of life.

Let me conclude by saying, on the issue of provinces being able to support traditional leaders and their houses, yes, I agree with you that in the Eastern Cape there is a problem and transformation is sluggish. In that manner support does not occur appropriately. These are the issues that we are dealing with that we will rectify. We will ensure that by the end of next year all issues pertaining to traditional leadership will be running accordingly. I thank you.]

Mr W P DOMAN: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, in our democracy institutions and public representatives are held accountable. Therefore, I want to ask you, in the light of this transformation, what mechanisms will be in place for the government to ensure that these traditional institutions and leaders are held accountable for doing their duty in terms of the vast sums of money that they cost taxpayers.

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: House Chairperson, I would like to thank the hon Doman. I think he would agree that the Minister in the Presidency will ensure that anybody who accesses state resources does so on the basis of a performance arrangement. This system is in place at the nerve centre of government – the highest office of the land.

In that respect, it is expected that traditional leaders, because they are part of the government system in South Africa, must also adhere to that system and be monitored in the way they do things.

We will ensure that we develop the performance monitoring measures – even the indicators – with them, to ensure that resources are utilised in an efficient way, that we are effective in the way we do things, and that the government gets value for money from what we do. Thank you.

Prince M G BUTHELEZI: Chairperson, I don’t know whether the Minister is aware that, recently, as a way of tightening their belts, traditional councils and houses were no longer able to serve refreshments for people who attended meetings. [Laughter.] I don’t see anything in that to laugh about; I don’t think there is anything funny about it.

If the Minister is aware of this, can he do something about it, because I think it is most degrading? It contradicts all the pronouncements that there is respect for traditional leadership. Furthermore, I’m surprised that my colleague, the hon Doman, is so ignorant that he doesn’t even know that traditional leaders don’t have a budget. So, we have nothing to account for to anyone.

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, I would like to inform the hon Mntwana that we were not aware of the issue of the lack of refreshments for traditional leaders.

I think the hon Mntwana will recall that we are trying to build capacity. We will be launching a department that will deal with traditional leadership so that we have the capacity to know what is happening in every province and to co-ordinate in every area. In that way, at any given time, there can be uniformity in relation to systems and the way things are done.

We would be happy to follow up on the issue of refreshments that Baba Shenge has raised, so that they are provided. In all municipalities people are offered refreshments when they gather. We don’t think there should be a difference when it comes to traditional leaders. Thank you. [Applause.]

Particulars regarding rating system on one-page report card system for Cabinet Ministers

1. The Leader of the Opposition (DA) asked the Minister in the Presidency – Performance Monitoring and Evaluation and Administration:

 (1)    Whether, with reference to his speech on the Budget Vote for the
       Presidency (details furnished), (a) there will be a rating
       system on the one-page report card system for Cabinet Ministers
       and (b) how will Ministers’ performance be measured on the
       report card; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so,
       what are the relevant details in each case;


 (2)    whether there will be any consequences if a Minister fails the
       rating system; if not, why not; if so, (a) what consequences and
       (b) how many times may a Minister fail this rating system before
       the consequences are enacted;


 (3)    whether the (a) results of these one-page report cards or (b)
       general outcomes or findings of each report-back session will be
       made public; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant
       details in each case?             NO1279E

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY – PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, firstly, the government approved its Medium- Term Strategic Framework, MTSF, for the period 2009 to 2014 in July 2009. This spells out its plan for the next five years. The new performance process is an extension of the MTSF, and we are in the process of developing measurable outcomes and outputs against which Ministers’ departments need to deliver. Once Cabinet has approved these outcomes, they will be formally communicated to Ministers.

Secondly, the document improving government’s performance was launched for the public on 4 September, and it describes our approach in more detail. This is not a rating system, as the question suggests, but a mechanism to direct our delivery and assess our performance on a regular basis. The six- month reports from Ministers to the President will have two objectives: to assess the progress made in six months towards, what in all cases are long- term targets, and identify blockages to delivery that need attention. This approach is a reflection of how seriously the Presidency takes the responsibility of planning and improving performance, and the consequences for not meeting delivery targets will be decided upon by the President.

Thirdly, government is committed to keeping the South African public and Parliament fully informed of its plans and progress in implementation. Regular reports, publications and addresses to Parliament will be used to report on performance. Thank you.

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, having listened carefully yesterday to the hon Thulani Nxesi’s rather theatrical advice to opposition parties about how we should conduct ourselves in relation to performance management and evaluation, I’d like to do just that today. I want to ascertain whether the ANC really wants to or means it when it says: “Together we can do more.”

Hon Minister, I’d like to state a couple of facts and ask you a question. There are a number of government departments that continually fail to submit reports or indicators to the public that are related to their performance, despite their being obligated to do so. Examples of this are the Department of Health that routinely fails to release the HIV-prevalence antenatal survey, as well as your own Ministry that has failed to release the report on the Presidency’s development indicator’s mid-term review. In light of the statement that you made yesterday in your Green Paper that “there would be enhanced citizen oversight, through an increased publication of outcomes data”, I’d like to ask you: Will your Ministry require government departments to release reports and indicators related to their performances on a more regular basis; and, most importantly, whether the Department of Police will be required to release crime statistics on a more regular basis? If not, why not?

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY – PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, as we indicated in our White Paper, we will, on issues that relate to us, be able to release information or reports related to the work that we are going to do. Obviously, with regard to reports that are compiled by other departments or other institutions, it is within the right of those institutions to determine how those reports are released and at what point. Once there is an agreement as to when those reports are going to be available, if it needs our attention, we will then access those reports on behalf of whoever requires them. Thank you.

Mr S N SWART: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, arising from your response, how will national Ministers of Health and Education be held accountable for failures at health care facilities and schools, given that they only set national standards which provincial MECs are then allocated budgets to implement? Thank you.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY – PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, if we look at the Green Paper, it indicates that we have concurrent functions which involve national and provincial governments, and in those instances we suggested that the process of sector accountability may become important. We had a discussion with the various departments, especially the two departments on that aspect, and we got a commitment from them that it would be possible, through the delivery agreement, to identify the responsibility from the Ministry at a national level to the nine departments at provincial level, including institutions that could be ring-fenced for particular performance objectives. I thank you.

Mnu J M MATSHOBA: Sihlalo neNdlu yoWiso-mthetho ngokubanzi, Mphathiswa uyiphendule ngokuxolisayo imibuzo. Nto nje kukho into encinane, yokuba i- ANC iyalawula apha. Xa sithetha ngokusiwa kweenkonzo ebantwini, kwinkomfa yayo eyayisePolokwane ngo-2009, i-ANC yathabatha izigqibo zokuba ooceba abaseburhulumenteni mababe baphelile ngonyaka ka-2010, nto leyo ithetha ukuba kuza kufuneka ukuba kube kho uvalo-zikhewu kwa kulo nyaka. Ingaba kumaxa undawoni naloo malungiselelo? Enkosi. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[Mr J M MATSHOBA: Chairperson and the House at large, the Minister has answered the questions satisfactorily, but there is this thing that the ANC rules here. When it comes to service delivery, in their Polokwane Conference in 2009 the ANC took a resolution that no councillor would be serving in any government department by 2010. That means there will be a need for by-elections this year. How far are you with those preparations? Thank you. ]

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY – PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, I didn’t get the question clearly.

USIHLALO WENDLU (Mnu K O Bapela): Bawo, ndicela uwuphinde lo mbuzo.

Mnu J M MATSHOBA: Lo mbuzo ubusiya kuMphathiswa …

USIHLALO WENDLU (Mnu K O Bapela): Yima kancinci usafaka into yokuva endlebeni, ukuze akwazi ukuqonda olu lwimi uluthethayo. Kulungile ungaqhubeka ke ngoku.

Mnu J M MATSHOBA: Lo mbuzo bendiwubuza ubusiya kuMphathiswa wooRhulumente baseKhaya kunye neMicimbi yezeMveli, kodwa ke naye angawuphendula. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Sir, could you please repeat the question?

Mr J M MATSHOBA: This question was directed to the Minister …

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Just wait a bit, he is still putting on his headphones so that he can understand the language you are using. It is okay, you may proceed now.

Mr J M MATSHOBA: The question I was asking was directed to the Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, but he could also respond to it.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Well, it’s up to you, Minister, to respond if you want to, because he says the question was not directed at you, but that it was just a general question.

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY – PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, I said that I did not hear the question. What I heard now was an explanation that the question was not directed at me, so I don’t know what I’m supposed to answer.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): In that case, let’s pass. Thank you, hon Minister. Are there any further supplementary questions?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, I want to ask the hon Minister a question, because the answer that he gave was not a satisfactory one. In the Green Paper that he released, there’s a chapter called “The principles of reporting”. In fact, one of the paragraphs is called “Data architecture”, and in there he says that there must not only be internal, but external examinations by the citizens of South Africa in respect of the information supplied. Now, referring to your answer, in respect of the police, how are the citizens of South Africa going to play their part in monitoring the success or otherwise of the Department of Police, if they do not get those statistics?

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY – PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, with regard to the specific question around the police, I’ve not heard the Department of Police saying that they are not going to release the statistics. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): The Minister has responded and we are now moving on to the next question. Whether satisfactorily answered or not, the fact remains that he has responded. Question 67 has been asked by the hon K R J Meshoe. Can I just finish the next question, or is that a point of order?

Mr M J ELLIS: Well, Mr Chairman …

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Is that a point of order, Mr Ellis?

Mr M J ELLIS: I think it is, Mr Chairman. The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Don’t think. Is that a point of order, hon Ellis? [Interjections.]

Position regarding the 500 000 job opportunities envisaged by December 2009

1. Rev K R J Meshoe (ACDP) asked the Minister in the Presidency – National Planning Commission:

   Whether the 500 000 jobs envisaged by December 2009 include temporary job opportunities; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, (a) how many permanent jobs have been created so far as compared to temporary job opportunities and (b) in which sectors? NO1284E

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS (on behalf of the Minister in the Presidency – National Planning Commission): House Chairperson, firstly, before we get to the question, can I raise a point of order on the manner in which this question has been posed to the incorrect Minister. This question should have been directed to me as the line-function Minister of Public Works. Given the time we have now been given to respond to the question, I would like to ask that the question stand over and that I will respond to it when this cluster that I report to comes up next week. Thank you, sir.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Order! Okay. The request is quite fair. I think the House should agree to this. The question will then be deferred until next week when the Minister will be in the House.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Chairperson, on a point of order: I requested that the question stand over for the cluster next week when I will take the question and not Minister Manuel.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Okay. That’s in line.

   Measures to improve provincial departments’ capacity to monitor
                           municipalities

1. Mrs N M Mdaka (ANC) asked the Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs:

   What measures does his department have in place to improve the capacity of provincial departments to monitor municipalities in their jurisdiction? NO1287E

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: House Chair, this question, Question 68, has already been answered – when I explained what we were doing in the provinces. But let me continue by saying that the issue of capacity in provinces is something we have done an assessment on. We have looked at what has to be there. In that respect, we have found that provinces have not promulgated laws around the support to municipalities. That is the first thing we saw as a weakness.

The second aspect was the capacity of departments dealing with local government to be able to give support at that level. In that respect, we are involved in a programme of assisting provincial departments to have the capacity to support municipalities. This is because, in our view, we must not be the first line of defence in supporting municipalities. This must be done by provinces. When provinces escalate an issue at a local level, you find that there is no response at a provincial level. This must come to us at a national level.

In that respect, we are involved in a programme of giving capacity at a provincial level. This is done not only in terms of people, but also in terms of structures. This is because we would be happy if provincial departments were established in every region. This is so that a director knows when he or she wakes up in the morning, that he or she must ensure that the municipalities in his or her own area of jurisdiction are functional and able to discharge their responsibilities. We are discussing this with our counterparts and colleagues. They are in favour of the ideas we are coming up with. Thank you very much, Chair.

Mrs N M MDAKA: Thank you, Chairperson. My question, Minister, will be on the Western Cape specifically, because it is led by the DA. Minister, what challenges are you facing in this province, and what are your plans in terms of monitoring this province and this metro, especially the Office of the Premier? You know, they think that here in this province they are independent, because they see this province as their “smallanyana” [very small] heaven. It does not work like that. Christmas comes once a year. Watch out for 2014: You are not getting this province again. [Interjections.] Thank you.

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, hon House Chair. On the issue of the Western Cape specifically, I must say that we work very well with the premier, the hon Helen Zille. We also work very well with the MEC. The MEC has committed himself to working with the government, because he has accepted that there is one country and one President. The other government structures are spheres that must be able to feed out to the country. Therefore, it follows that there must be one system in South Africa.

In that respect, I am going to be visiting provinces, with my colleague Minister Baloyi, from 30 September to 30 October, and we will be meeting provincial cabinets, provincial ward committees, traditional leaders, councillors and so on in order to understand what is happening. So, when we talk about giving support and conducting monitoring, you know the situations that obtain, subjectively and objectively, in a province. That is what we will be doing. For now, the Western Cape is co-operative and is working well with us. We are even conducting an assessment currently, and we have not experienced any problems. Thank you very much, House Chair. [Applause.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, on a point of order: Is it correct for the hon Minister to give such a positive response about his relationship with the DA in the Western Cape? [Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): That is not a point of order, hon Ellis. You know that very well.

Mr W P DOMAN: House Chairperson, I would like to thank the hon Mdaka from the ANC for asking this question, totally in line with the DA’s policy. We welcome this question. We also welcome the Minister’s reply, because the DA wants provinces to be capacitated. We don’t want the centralised approach that we had in the past from the ANC.

Hon Minister, the Western Cape will welcome any proper monitoring and support, because we are not afraid of it. We will work with you, and I am sure that will happen.

I would like to ask the hon Minister the following question: Don’t you think we would have had fewer service delivery protests if the provincial departments were properly capacitated in the past? The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: House Chair, there is always room for improvement in any system. People stop improving when they are six feet under. But as long as you are still alive, you must always strive for the best. Therefore, in that respect, I think that’s how we must take on this issue of provinces. We believe that going forward we will be able to ensure that we improve, because we have learned from the lessons of the past 15 years. I think that is how this process of empowerment should be done.

We are very excited that the DA doesn’t believe it when we speak well about them. We said, “Let’s rise above petty politics and focus our eyes on the ball and not on the person.” Even in this case, we don’t focus on the party. We focus on the issues. Now, let’s build that relationship going forward. Thank you very much.

Mrs C DUDLEY: Thank you, Chair. Hon Minister, there are those who perceive local government to be under threat such that the national government intends taking over and centralising decisions. What is the Minister doing to allay fears in this regard?

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, I am very happy that this question has been raised by the hon Dudley, because I have had discussions with the leadership of the DA at a particular level. They raised areas where they felt there was that threat: one, the 17th constitutional amendment; two, the single Public Service; and, three, the provincial and local government policy review. They raised these three areas in the main where they had concerns. We have had an agreement that the leadership on this side of the House was going to engage on any issue with the intention of finding solutions. We will be able to explain the rationale for our coming to particular conclusions. If people have better ideas, why can’t we take them?

In this respect, Madam Dudley, on everything that you have concerns about, this government is going to engage you or any other party that feels threatened so that we are able to find a win-win situation, not for ourselves but for the country. This will not only be for our parties, but for future generations that will come after us. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Setting up of task teams to investigate and report on recent service
                 delivery protests at municipalities

1. Mr W P Doman (DA) asked the Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs:

   (1) Whether he has set up any task teams to investigate the recent service delivery protests at municipalities; if not, why not; if so,

   (2) whether he has received reports from the task teams; if not, when are the task team reports due; if so, what (a) are their findings and (b) steps have been taken to act on the findings? NO1277E

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, the question that has been raised deals with the issue of service delivery protests, that is, what we have done about them. What we have done, hon Doman, is that we have established a task team composed of national government officials. The officials have moved from their air- conditioned offices and are working on the ground with the provinces, because this programme is led by the MECs.

We are assessing the situation surrounding municipalities so that we can come up with solutions that are tailor-made and specific. We believe that there is no one-size-fits-all solution for dealing with the issues of local government.

We have received interim reports, or preliminary reports, if you like. We have looked at them and they raise various issues, one of which is the issue of service delivery. They indicate that there are challenges with regard to service delivery in certain areas. Of course, they are also telling a good story in that there are hard-working councillors and officials out there, men and women, who have done very well. There are some municipalities with best practices on different aspects. We believe that we must emulate these best practices and mainstream them to other areas.

The reports also raise issues that are not so encouraging, such as corruption, nepotism and fraud. We believe that all of us, as a nation, should reject these issues with the contempt they deserve because they don’t belong in our nation.

The other issue raised is the issue of social distance between communities and government. It emanates in particular from the weaknesses in the ward committee system and the structures for popular participation. Therefore we believe that we must strengthen these areas going forward.

We are implementing the findings in various areas, and we will ensure that we investigate where an investigation is supposed to take place. We have entered into an agreement with my colleague here, the Minister of Police, together with the Hawks, under the leadership of Mr Anwar Dramat. We believe that people who have done wrong must face the law. As South Africans, we must know that every action has consequences. If we can inculcate that in the minds of the people, we can move forward.

Things are being implemented, and we are moving forward. In other provinces

• with the exception of the Western Cape - reports on the state of municipalities are being adopted by provincial cabinets. The Western Cape has asked for a further postponement. We are working on them on that. Thank you very much, Chairperson. [Time expired.]

Mr W P DOMAN: Chairperson, thank you very much to the Minister for the reply. We really support him in this investigation and for coming up with answers and really making a difference. In our visits to these hot spots, members of communities often say that councillors have disappeared and that there hasn’t been any communication. So, I want to ask the Minister about this aspect. Will the Minister ensure that the findings are communicated properly to municipalities? Secondly, will the Minister also address the issue of proper communication with communities by all councillors?

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, House Chair. I also want to thank the hon Doman. Yes, definitely; what we want to see is a situation in which local government becomes everybody’s business. I would be happy if all Members of Parliament sitting here knew what was happening in their municipalities and were able to contribute at that level; and if there were issues that needed to be taken up, they raised them with us because local government affects everyone. In that respect, we want to ensure that the citizens of this country contribute to the development of municipalities.

We want to ensure that people discuss the findings and outcomes of the report. At the end of the day, we want to come up with a draft turnaround strategy. It will be localised in that people contribute. Also, the implementation of the turnaround strategy must be monitored by the citizens of that municipality. That is what we want to see. In that way, there would be transparency, transparency, transparency! Thank you.

See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.

                          NOTICE OF MOTION

Dr P J RABIE: Mr House Chairman, I hereby give notice that I intend moving the following motion:

That the House debates the shortfall in expected tax revenue and provides solutions on how the state will honour the spending commitments it announced in February 2009.

               TURKISH SHIP RUNS AGROUND IN TABLE BAY

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr Chairman, I move without notice:

That the House –

 1) notes that National Sea Rescue Institute, NSRI, rescue workers
    yesterday managed to save the lives of 25 Turkish crew members,
    after their ship ran aground in Table Bay amidst gale-force winds,
    and massive swells;

(2) further notes that Melkbosstrand rescue swimmer Kobus Meyer made an exceptionally heroic contribution under extreme weather conditions;

(3) thanks all NSRI members for their selfless contribution and dedication to the very important job they do; and

(4) encourages them to keep up the outstanding work.

Agreed to.

                J M COETZEE BOOKER PRIZE ACHIEVEMENTS

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr Chairman, I move without notice:

That the House – (1) notes that J M Coetzee is on the shortlist for the prestigious Booker Prize for fiction for an unprecedented third time for his book Summertime;

(2) further notes that Coetzee was the first author to have won this award twice for both The Life and Times of Michael K and Disgrace, and will truly be making history by winning it a third time;

(3) congratulates him on this exceptional achievement; and

(4) encourages him to continue to contribute to South African literature in the remarkable way he has over several years.

Agreed to.

                         THE BISHO MASSACRE

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr M A NHANHA: Hon Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House -

 1) notes that 7 September 2009 marked the date 17 years ago when
    innocent people were mercilessly gunned down, and hundreds maimed
    and wounded in the Eastern Cape by the then Ciskei Defence Force
    under the command of Oupa Gqozo;

(2) notes that the victims of the Bisho massacre, as it is now called, were fighting a noble and just cause from which we are now reaping the benefits;

(3) further notes that these victims and their families have now been relegated to the annals of history as forgotten heroes, as was demonstrated by the absence of government at the commemorative event on Monday; and

(4) assures the victims and their families of its recognition of their contribution to the struggle of our country.

Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, on a point of order: I want to say that there is certainly no objection to that motion from the DA, but both the ANC and the DA were unaware of this motion. It was supposed to be circulated to parties beforehand. We don’t want to oppose it, but we are asking that all parties co-operate in the agreement that we have.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Okay. Hon member, it’s true that you should have circulated the motion to all parties so that they were notified of the motion and …

Mr M A NHANHA: Chair, as far as I am aware, it was circulated. I got the green light from my own Whip to go ahead with the motion.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Okay. The indication is that it was not received by parties. They are not objecting to it, though. So please follow that Rule and road in the future.

Mr C T FROLICK: Chairperson, can the motion without notice stand over please so that there can be consultation on it?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Alright, we then agree that the motion will stand over until all parties receive it and satisfy themselves.

The House adjourned at 17:08. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)

(1)    The JTM in terms of Joint Rule 160(6) classified the following
     Bill as a section 75 Bill:

      a) Protection of Personal Information Bill [B 9 – 2009] (National
         Assembly – sec 75)

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Science and Technology

(a)     Report and Financial Statements of the Council  for  Scientific
    and Industrial Research (CSIR) for 2008-2009, including the  Report
    of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and  Performance
    Information for 2008-2009 [RP 117-2009].

National Assembly

1. The Speaker

(a)     Request from  the  Minister  of  Trade  and  Industry  for  the
    National Assembly, in terms of section  3(1)(a)  of  the  Lotteries
    Act, 1997 (Act No 57 of 1997), to recommend a  candidate  from  the
    nominations  submitted  for  appointment  by  the  Minister  of   a
    chairperson of the National Lotteries Board.

    Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry for
    consideration and report.

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Assembly

1. Report of the Ad Hoc Committee to Nominate a Person for Appointment as Public Protector on the short-listing of candidates to be interviewed for appointment as Public Protector, dated 8 September 2009:

 The Ad Hoc Committee to Nominate a Person for Appointment as Public
 Protector, having considered the nominations of candidates submitted to
 be appointed as Public Protector in terms of the Public Protector Act,
 23 of 1994, reports as follows:

 The Committee invited the public to nominate candidates for
 consideration and recommendation to the National Assembly. The
 Committee received 49 nominations and short-listed 8 candidates. The
 shortlist is inclusive and reflects a broad cross-section of the
 population.


 The candidates have been selected on the basis of the following
 criteria as set out in Section 1A(3)(a-f) of the Public Protector Act
 23, of 1994: -


 The Public Protector shall be a South African citizen who is a fit and
 proper person to hold such office, and who-

 (a)    is a Judge of a High Court; or
 (b)    is admitted as an advocate or an attorney and has, for a
     cumulative period of at least 10 years after having been so
     admitted, practised as an advocate or an attorney; or
 (c)    is qualified to be admitted as an advocate or an attorney and
     has, for a cumulative period of at least 10 years after having so
     qualified, lectured in law at a university; or
 (d)    has specialised knowledge of or experience, for a cumulative
     period of at least 10 years, in the administration of justice,
     public administration or public finance; or
 (e)    has, for a cumulative period of at least 10 years, been a member
     of Parliament; or
 (f)    has acquired any combination of experience mentioned in
     paragraphs (b) to (e), for a cumulative period of at least 10
     years.


 The interviews are scheduled to take place from the 15 – 16 September
 2009 in Parliament. The following candidates will be interviewed:

 1.     Mr Mhlaliseni Michael Mthembu
 2.     Ms Thulisile Nomkhosi Madonsela
 3.     Professor Mzamo Alexander Gumbi
 4.     Advocate Linda Pienaar
 5.     Advocate Audrey Elisa Mpofu
 6.     Advocate Mamiki Thabitha Shai
 7.     Advocate Mohammed Alli Chicktay
 8.     Advocate Loyiso Khanyisa Bunye Mpumlwana

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Communications on the shortlisting of candidates to be interviewed to serve on the South African Broadcasting Corporation (SABC) Board, dated 8 September 2009: The Portfolio Committee on Communications, having reported on the shortlisting of candidates to be interviewed to serve on the SABC Board, reports that the following candidate has been added to the shortlist:

|Surname                    | Name                           | |Sekha                      |Felleng Lorraine                |