WEDNESDAY, 8 JULY 2009 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
                                ____

The Council met at 14:15.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

                      SUSPENSION OF RULE 239(1)

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chair, I move the draft resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:

That Rule 239(1), which provides inter alia that the consideration of a Bill may not commence before at least three working days have elapsed since the committee’s report was tabled, be suspended for the purposes of consideration of the Appropriation Bill [B 5B-2009] (National Assembly – sec 77).

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

                (Consideration of Votes and Schedule)

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Mr Minister of Finance, welcome to the National Council of Provinces. Thank you. We welcome you and congratulate you on your new position as the Minister of Finance.

As there is no speakers’ list, I shall now put the Votes in the order in which they appear on the schedule to the Bill. I hope they have distributed the schedules to you. You have them.

Vote No 1 – The Presidency – put and agreed to.

Vote No 2 - Parliament - put and agreed to.

Vote No 3 – International Relations and Co-operation – put and agreed to.

Vote No 4 - Home Affairs - put and agreed to.

Vote No 5 – Public Works - put and agreed to.

Vote No 6 – Government Communication and Information System - put and agreed to.

Vote No 7 – National Treasury - put and agreed to.

Vote No 8 – Public Administration Leadership and Management Academy – put and agreed to.

Vote No 9 – Public Service and Administration – put and agreed to.

Vote No 10 – Public Service Commission – put and agreed to.

Vote No 11 – Statistics South Africa – put and agreed to.

Vote No 12 – Arts and Culture – put and agreed to.

Vote No 13 – Education – put.

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

AYES - 38: Adams, F; Boroto, M G; Chaane, T E; de Beer, C J; Dikgale, M C; Gamede, D D; Gunda, J J; Jacobs, M P; Mabe, B P; Mabija, L; Magadla, N W; Maine, M C; Makgate, M W; Mamabolo, N; Mashamaite, T A; Mashile, B L; Matila, A G; Matshoge, J; Mazosiwe, S S; Memela, T C; Mhaule, M R; Mncube, B V; Mnguni, B A; Mofokeng, T M H; Mokgobi, M H; Mokgoro, G G; Montsitsi, S D; Moshodi, M L; Nesi, B; Ntwanambi, N D; Nyambi, A J; Nzimande, L P M; Qikani, A N D; Rantho, D Z; Sibande, M P; Tau, R J; Themba, M P; Zulu, M M M.

NOES – 10: Bekker, J M G; Chen, S S; de Villiers, M J R; Faber, W F; Groenewald, H B; Harris, T E; Lees, R A; van Lingen, E C; Watson, A; Worth, D A.

ABSTAIN – 7 : Bloem, D V; de Beer, O; Feldman, D B; Mlenzana, Z; Makhubela, M W; Plaatjie, S H; Sinclair, K A.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 14 – Health – put.

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

AYES - 38: Adams, F; Boroto, M G; Chaane, T E; de Beer, C J; Dikgale, M C; Gamede, D D; Gunda, J J; Jacobs, M P; Mabe, B P; Mabija, L; Magadla, N W; Maine, M C; Makgate, M W; Mamabolo, N; Mashamaite, T A; Mashile, B L; Matila, A G; Matshoge, J; Mazosiwe, S S; Memela, T C; Mhaule, M R; Mncube, B V; Mnguni, B A; Mofokeng, T M H; Mokgobi, M H; Mokgoro, G G; Montsitsi, S D; Moshodi, M L; Nesi, B; Ntwanambi, N D; Nyambi, A J; Nzimande, L P M; Qikani, A N D; Rantho, D Z; Sibande, M P; Tau, R J; Themba, M P; Zulu, M M M.

NOES - 10: Bekker, J M G; Chen, SS; de Villiers, M J R; Faber, W F; Groenewald, H B; Harris, T E; Lees, R A; van Lingen, E C; Watson, A; Worth, D A.

ABSTAIN - 7: Bloem, D V; de Beer, O; Feldman, D B; Mlenzana, Z; Makhubela, M W; Plaatjie, S H; Sinclair, K A.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 15 – Labour – put and agreed to.

Vote No 16 – Social Development – put and agreed to.

Vote No 17 – Sport and Recreation South Africa – put.

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

AYES - 38: Adams, F; Boroto, M G; Chaane, T E; de Beer, C J; Dikgale, M C; Gamede, D D; Gunda, J J; Jacobs, M P; Mabe, B P; Mabija, L; Magadla, N W; Maine, M C; Makgate, M W; Mamabolo, N; Mashamaite, T A; Mashile, B L; Matila, A G; Matshoge, J; Mazosiwe, S S; Memela, T C; Mhaule, M R; Mncube, B V; Mnguni, B A; Mofokeng, T M H; Mokgobi, M H; Mokgoro, G G; Montsitsi, S D; Moshodi, M L; Nesi, B; Ntwanambi, N D; Nyambi, A J; Nzimande, L P M; Qikani, A N D; Rantho, D Z; Sibande, M P; Tau, R J; Themba, M P; Zulu, M M M.

NOES - 10: Bekker, J M G; Chen, S S; de Villiers, M J R; Faber, W F; Groenewald, H B; Harris, T E; Lees, R A; van Lingen, E C; Watson, A; Worth, D A.

ABSTAIN - 7: Bloem, D V; de Beer, O; Feldman, D B; Mlenzana, Z; Makhubela, M W; Plaatjie, S H; Sinclair, K A.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 18 – Correctional Services – put.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 19 – Defence and Military Veterans – put and agreed to.

Vote No 20 – Independent Complaints Directorate – put and agreed to.

Vote No 21 – Justice and Constitutional Development – put and agreed to.

Vote No 22 – Police – put. Division demanded.

The Council divided:

AYES - 45: Adams, F; Bloem, D V; Boroto, M G; Chaane, T E; de Beer, C J; de Beer, O; Dikgale, M C; Feldman, D B; Gamede, D D; Gunda, J J; Jacobs, M P; Mabe, B P; Mabija, L; Magadla, N W; Maine, M C; Makgate, M W; Makhubela, M W; Mamabolo, N; Mashamaite, T A; Mashile, B L; Matila, A G; Matshoge, J; Mazosiwe, S S; Memela, T C; Mhaule, M R; Mlenzana, Z; Mncube, B V; Mnguni, B A; Mofokeng, T M H; Mokgobi, M H; Mokgoro, G G; Montsitsi, S D; Moshodi, M L; Nesi, B; Ntwanambi, N D; Nyambi, A J; Nzimande, L P M; Plaatjie, S H; Qikani, A N D; Rantho, D Z; Sibande, M P; Sinclair, K A; Tau, R J; Themba, M P; Zulu, M M M.

NOES - 10: Bekker, J M G; Chen, S S; de Villiers, M J R; Faber, W F; Groenewald, H B; Harris, T E; Lees, R A; van Lingen, E C; Watson, A; Worth, D A.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 23 – Agriculture - put and agreed to.

Vote No 24 – Communications – put.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting). Vote No 25 - Environmental Affairs and Tourism - put and agreed to.

Vote No 26 – Human Settlements - put and agreed to.

Vote No 27 - Rural Development and Land Reform – put.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 28 - Minerals and Energy - put.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 29 – Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs - put and agreed to.

Vote No 30 – Public Enterprises – put.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 31 - Science and Technology - put and agreed to.

Vote No 32 – Trade and Industry - put and agreed to.

Vote No 33 – Transport – put.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting). Vote No 34 – Water Affairs and Forestry – put.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 35 – Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries - put and agreed to.

Vote No 36 – Basic Education – put and agreed to.

Vote No 37 – Economic Development - put and agreed to.

Vote No 38 – Energy - put and agreed to.

Vote No 39 – Environmental Affairs - put and agreed to.

Vote No 40 – Higher Education and Training - put and agreed to.

Vote No 41 – Mineral Resources - put and agreed to.

Vote No 42 – Tourism - put and agreed to.

Vote No 43 – Water Affairs - put and agreed to.

Vote No 44 – Women, Children and People with Disabilities - put and agreed to.

Schedule put and agreed to.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mr Freddie Adams, sit down, please. The Minister wants to speak now.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, Deputy Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, hon members and colleagues, I am here to present the Appropriation Bill, which most of you are now familiar with. The original Appropriation Bill was tabled with the Budget in the National Assembly on 11 February 2009 by my predecessor, Minister Manuel.

Following the general elections in April, it has been revived, debated, amended and approved by the National Assembly. Several technical changes have been made to better align the Bill with the new Cabinet structure announced by President Zuma in May this year after the elections. An extensive process has been put in place by the Department of Public Service and Administration, DPSA, to give administrative effect to the new Cabinet portfolios and departmental structures that support the Ministers responsible for those portfolios. This process is not yet complete and, in some instances, is very complex. So, I present to you, ladies and gentlemen, the Appropriation Bill as amended by the National Assembly.

Over the past weeks you have had the task of engaging in policy debates on the Budget Votes of all the departments. This is not an easy task and it demands your careful consideration. Once you pass the Budget, the public relies on their public representatives to ensure that the lives of our people are improved, wastage is eliminated and corruption is dealt with effectively. They expect Parliament to hold the executive accountable as much as they hold civil servants accountable.

This Appropriation Bill is passed in an uncertain and generally gloomy global context. About 10 days ago, there was a lot of talk around the globe in many financial newspapers and elsewhere about the recession bottoming out. In the past couple of days this week that attitude has changed quite significantly and, instead of the optimism that was prevalent 10 days ago, there’s a climate of gloom hanging over the world.

The recent sentiment is that the green shoots in the global economy are being covered by brown shoots, as indications show that the much- anticipated global recovery is, as yet, some way off. It is now inevitable that 2009 will see a contraction in global economic growth, with signs that the recession will bottom out at the end of the year. Even in South Africa, it is predicted by the International Monetary Fund, the World Bank and the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development that our growth will be somewhere between -1,5% and -2%.

The global economic slowdown has pushed our own economy into recession – our first in 17 years. We have had to relook at our fiscal trajectory, with the impact of the slowdown on our revenue collection for this year being, undeniably, quite significant. We recently announced that our revenue collection could be as much as R60 billion below target if the present trends continue. Of course, we will only know this later in the year. Our spending will, therefore, exceed revenue this year. However, our prudent fiscal stance in the past years has given us the space to increase borrowing to address this shortfall, and to ensure that spending plans to sustain economic activity can continue.

In essence, over the past few years we’ve been careful not to borrow so much in South Africa. Our debt-to-GDP ratio is around 25% to 26%, and that means, unlike many other countries around the world, we have more space to borrow.

Equally, over the past two years we’ve had a small surplus in our budgeting in South Africa, and that small surplus in fact helped us to cope with the recession we are facing. This means that we have to borrow more in the coming year to make up for the shortfall in revenue. We have to prune unnecessary spending and reprioritise our plans going forward. We must be uncompromising about our approach in attacking wastage and corruption.

The space created by our fiscal position has also taught us that it is vital to ensure that any borrowing that is done, is done in a sustainable way. Borrowing means paying back later on with interest. So, borrowing now effectively means that there will be less money available in the future, because we will be paying more in interest. Our borrowing requirements, therefore, must be met in a manner that will not hinder our future growth plans. If we spend more money on paying interest, we are spending less money on delivering services to South Africans. Therefore, the balance between the amount of money spent on interest payments versus the amount of money spent on delivering services to South Africans is a balance that has to be carefully maintained.

As many of our borrowing requirements as possible should be met domestically. This means that we borrow from the domestic capital markets instead of relying on foreign inflows. But borrowing is also related to savings in a particular country. If a country’s citizens don’t save adequately, then there isn’t enough money to be borrowed by government or by businesses in that country.

Therefore, it is particularly significant that July is known as savings month in South Africa and is aimed at promoting a savings culture in this country. There are positive indications that South Africans are taking this message to heart, as the gross savings rate as a proportion of GDP rose to 17% in the first quarter of this year, up from an average of 15,4% in 2008. But we are way behind those countries that save effectively. China’s figure is 40%, and India’s figure is 30%, compared to our 17%.

So, we have to find some way of creating a conversation in South Africa and also an attitude which ensures that even with limited incomes we save more money than we currently do, and consume less than is currently done as well. And, we believe that Chambers like the National Council of Provinces and the members of the NCOP can play an important role in educating the public about the importance of saving.

The slowdown is putting additional pressure on ensuring that value for money remains tantamount or important in all the spending decisions. Spending pressures are making themselves felt at all levels of government, and in particular provinces and municipalities are grappling with lower revenue streams. This has implications for spending on priority areas like health and education. Where necessary, spending must be reprioritised so that we can spend more on providing services required by our people and less on programmes that can be delayed or done away with.

The times have changed and our way of doing things must also change. So, part of the conversation that we need to have with both the executive in the provinces and civil servants in provinces and in municipalities is how we stop wasting money, how we take exotic projects and kill them, and how we ensure that money is directed towards the services that all of our people actually require.

Let me from the outset clarify that there is no additional funding that the new departments will receive in this main Budget. Funds will be transferred from one Vote to another in line with the transfer of functions, and, where necessary, additional resources will be provided to cater for new Ministries and new functions. These transfers and changes will be reflected in October when we table the Adjustments Appropriation Bill.

To ensure continuity, departments that were in existence before 10 May 2009 will continue to exist until such time as the reorganisation becomes effective. Yesterday we tabled an explanatory memorandum in the National Assembly, and it is available for all to read, to assist you to better understand how these changes and processes will work. This is important so that service delivery continues.

In essence, it’s going to still take us a few months, and perhaps, in some instances, longer than a few months, in order not just to get the reorganisation of departments undertaken successfully, but also to move the right amount of money successfully. If you look at the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, there is quite a significant change in its functions. So, you have to work out how many people are going to move and the amount of money needed that has to move with those people as well.

Our intergovernmental fiscal system has indeed matured over the past 15 years. We have relatively stable budgets and our financial reforms have deepened. Over the past 10 years the budgets of provincial and local governments have grown in real terms and, in some instances, have more than doubled in size.

Great progress has been made on the delivery side. We have improved access to basic services like water, sanitation, refuse and electricity. All service delivery indicators point in the right direction, but the question we have to ask is whether we have done enough and whether we have the necessary quality of services that our people require.

Education outcomes are not what they should be, given the level of investment being made in the system. At present, a great chunk of our school infrastructure does not create a conducive learning environment.

The health system, particularly the hospitals, is under severe pressure due to management failures.

The poor remain marginalised and are located on the peripheries of our cities far from economic opportunity. What are the chances that these communities will get out of the poverty cycle that they find themselves in?

I am sure these things are not new to hon members. These are just a few examples to illustrate that government is simply not getting value for money, given the enormous investment that it is making.

At the same time, we have challenges and successes amongst both our provinces and our municipalities. And as a House that represents the interests of the provinces and municipalities, I trust you will engage more keenly with the challenges that our provinces and municipalities face as much as we must also celebrate the successes of the provinces and municipalities.

The National Treasury has provided this House with all the information it requires, and I assure you that it will work closely with you to enable you to get on top of your portfolios and interact with both the executive and public servants as effectively as you should.

When the Budget was tabled, we said that we would protect the poor, build capacity for long-term growth, sustain employment growth and maintain a stable debt level, and, at the same time, address barriers to growth and investment. The economic outlook has changed since then, but we remain committed to these objectives.

I want to take this opportunity, in conclusion, to thank members of the NCOP for their commitment, dedication and patience. In particular, I want to thank the Select Committee on Finance and Appropriations, ably chaired by Mr De Beer, for their thorough engagement on the amending Bill. I thank you for this opportunity to speak with you. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Mr C J DE BEER: Hon Chairperson, it is an honour to take part in the proceedings this afternoon to deal with the allocation of money in order to better the lives of our people outside.

On behalf of the Select Committee on Finance and Appropriations, I congratulate the hon Minister and the Deputy Minister on their appointments to serve our nation in positions of responsibility. We commend the Minister of Finance for the sterling work done during his time as Commissioner of the SA Revenue Service. We wish him well in these trying times, but also give him endless opportunities. John Maxwell said: “Tough times never last, but tough people do.”

Prudence and discipline in the management of fiscal policies is required more today than ever before, as the days of the public spending boom are over. Leadership means taking responsibility for good and bad, even if it means taking unpopular decisions.

As a committee we have taken note that the fiscal policy framework, as outlined in the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework presented by the previous Minister of Finance in February this year, has since been altered by the new economic realities prevailing in the world today.

The important issue is: How do departments in the national and provincial spheres manage their spending, including municipalities?

The budget is guided by five enduring principles, which are as follows: protecting the poor; sustaining employment growth and expanding training opportunities; building economic capacity and promoting investment; addressing the barriers of competitiveness that limit an equitable sharing of opportunities; and, in doing these things, maintaining a sustainable debt level so that actions today do not constrain development tomorrow.

The debates on the Budget Votes showed that the departments do have clear objectives to do what is captured in the five principles. Progress in these areas will be more difficult over the period ahead. Policy adjustments need to reinforce macroeconomic stability. New departments will have to align their budgets with the set priorities.

Our country’s intergovernmental system faces a number of challenges with regard to service delivery, where concurrent functions are concerned. Some of these challenges have been identified as follows. Sometimes there seems to be a misalignment between policy initiatives and resource allocation. The lack of accountability for service delivery where the functions are concurrent creates problems. The lack of clarity on whether the assignment or configuration of certain functions lends itself to inefficiency and ineffectiveness is another challenge.

The largest adjustments to spending plans go to poverty reduction. Key spending allocations are, for example, R489 million to Education for the school nutrition programme; R200 million for health care; and R2,3 billion to adjust social grants for inflation and to accommodate the increase in beneficiary numbers due to changes in the means test.

It is our responsibility to give our people a better life. The quality of services delivered is important.

It is thus the responsibility of the NCOP, as we do our oversight, to look at the allocated resources and how they are spent. What priorities are addressed? The main issue is: Do we get value for money?

We are going to do our constituency work now and we will be confronted by the communities wanting to know whether there are projects on the ground. The underspending and overspending by departments and provinces lead us to pose the question: What are the implications in respect of quality of services rendered because both are unacceptable?

There will be serious engagement with the departments’ strategic plans and their spending on a quarterly basis, as well as dealing with their annual reports. The Appropriation Bill is providing more money in many areas. It is our task to do oversight of this money.

In light of the economic downturn, provinces should be in a position to weather the storm, provided the following are in place: improved and better cash management and cash-flow procedures; improved ability to cost activities and plan expenditure; adherence to the prescriptions of the Public Finance Management Act, Treasury regulations and other financial guidelines; avoidance of expenditure on nonpriority items; improved execution of departmental plans and budgets; and renewed focus on the efficient, effective and economic delivery of services.

The select committee dealt with the Appropriation Bill this morning, and adopted it. But there are a few concerns that I also want to note on behalf of the committee. The committee will deal with them in the future, when we call on the National Treasury on a quarterly basis to find out about progress on the issues mentioned.

What is the impact on service delivery by newly created departments that still do not have any budget allocations and support staff? What is the practicality of having functions transferred to new departments, while budget allocations are still with old departments? How will the transfer of functions to new departments impact on personnel transfers? How does the Treasury expect the departments to implement their mandate as they do not have any budgets and are expected to ask other departments for financial assistance?

As I have indicated, we will deal with these issues when we call the department back on a quarterly basis.

These are the kinds of challenges that are facing all of us - not only one party but everyone sitting here - as we deal with the Appropriation Bill today. We have a responsibility to our people out there. Let’s work and give them a better life. Thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

          RESIGNATION FROM JUDICIAL SERVICE COMMISSION AND
                  RECONSTITUTION OF NCOP DELEGATION

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chair, I move without notice:

That the Council notes and accepts the resignation of the Hon Mr T H M Mofokeng, MP, as a member of the Judicial Service Commission with his last day being 5 July 2009 and that the delegation from the National Council of Provinces be reconstituted as follows:

  a) Mr M J Mahlangu
  b) Mr T A Mashamaite
  c) Ms B P Mabe
  d) Ms M G Boroto

Mr A WATSON: Chairperson, I don’t recall Mr Worth resigning from the Commission, and I didn’t hear his name. I heard that Mofokeng had resigned and, therefore, that the delegation would be reconstituted. But Mr Worth’s name was left out. Could I have an explanation please, Chair?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chair, when I read the motion, I emphasised that the delegation would be reconstituted. I, therefore, as the Chief Whip of the NCOP, reconstituted the entire delegation, and the motion is that the four names that I read now will be the people who will make up part of Parliament’s delegation to the Judiciary Service Commission.

Mr A WATSON: Chairperson, I object strongly! This House adopted the committee that was put to the House. I don’t see it anywhere in the Rules that the Chief Whip has the right to disband the committee and constitute a new one. I therefore strongly object to it! Now, I ask you to investigate it before we take a decision on this, because I think the House is out of order by simply leaving out the name of a member, a delegate from this House that was nominated and adopted by this House.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chair, let me first apologise for making this a dialogue between Mr Watson and myself. I really apologise to you, Chair. I didn’t mean this to go this way. But all I know, and all I know in terms of the NCOP, is that if you read the Constitution of the country, it will tell you exactly how many members must come from both the National Council of Provinces and the National Assembly. And it says - if I have to clarify this for Mr Watson – that in the National Assembly, it is six members, three of whom must come from the opposition parties. That has been done. Regarding the resignation, I have reconstituted the delegation and I am moving that the House adopts the motion. Nowhere does it speak about parties, or provinces.

It refers to four members of the National Council of Provinces. And I am being so slow, Mr Watson, so that you understand. If you consult your Constitution again, whatever investigation you do, you will be referred to the very Constitution I am speaking about now. There is nowhere else from where we take guidance. There is nothing that says that in the Rules of the NCOP. Mr … ?

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Worth!

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Hon Worth, thank you, Madam. Mr Worth, like any other member here and like me is a delegate of a province. Although I am a member of the ANC, I have been sent by the Western Cape. So, that’s how it goes. I propose that we proceed, Chair. Thank you very much.

Mr A WATSON: Chair, at no point did I refer to the hon Worth as a DA member. I referred to the hon Worth as a member of the committee that was elected by this House, and he has not resigned. I don’t know where the Chief Whip gets the right to dismiss an hon member from whatever party who has been duly elected by this House. And I ask your ruling on that, Chair.

Mr D D GAMEDE: Hon Chair, I don’t want to say this is a point of order, but the motion is that there should be a reconstitution of this delegation.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, Mr Gamede, I was still listening. I am sorry for that.

Mr D D GAMEDE: Hon Chairperson, all I was saying is that the motion is about the reconstitution of the delegation.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay, thank you very much.

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Hon Chairperson, with permission, it seems that procedurally everything is not in order in terms of the way that this process has unfolded. I therefore request your consideration that this matter be reconsidered and the motion not be put today. Thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay. Let me just go through the Constitution first, which the Chief Whip has just quoted. It’s section 178(1)(i), which says: “… four permanent delegates to the National Council of Provinces designated together by the Council with a supporting vote of at least six provinces …”

Now, my reading into that matter is that one member has resigned. Therefore, when you reconstitute that, you reconstitute the whole delegation together. And that’s what the Constitution is saying. I will allow the motion to test the provinces in terms of whether they vote for the motion, or don’t vote for the motion. And remember we need six provinces to vote for the motion. Mr A WATSON: Chairperson, I wish to enquire through you from the Chief Whip whether the provinces were indeed asked to consider this vote that they are taking today, because I know for a fact that the Western Cape was not given that opportunity, and we control the Western Cape as the DA.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Well, I can put that question. But I’ve always said in the House that the Whips must consult one another. It shouldn’t be the job of the Chairperson to consult with the Whips. The Chairperson puts the question to the House, and that is my job. But that’s fine; I will do it through the Chief Whip if you want me to do so.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I speak as the Chief Whip but as Whips we are a collective. There is nothing in the Rules that says you must always consult. I am doing exactly my job as a member of the NCOP, and as a person who has been given this little manpower to make sure that the things that happen are in order. All that I have moved is in order. Yes, we consult from time to time. Today I really did not have time to consult with the Whips.

I think you have given a ruling that if six provinces here will support the motion, it will be agreed to. Let me just say one last thing: There were no promises to whoever, by whoever to say whatever. This is a motion that I am moving in this House. Finished.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! I am putting the motion now. Can I stop the dialogue? I’ve ruled on the matter.

I’m putting the question to the House. As there is no speakers’ list, I shall now put the question. The question is that the motion be agreed to. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 178(1)(i) of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all the delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their province’s vote. Are you all present?

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces an opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. Is there any province that wishes to do so?

Declaration of vote:

Mr T E HARRIS: Chairperson, the Western Cape will vote against the motion and expresses its objection that we weren’t consulted on this before we got to vote.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West.

AGAINST: Western Cape.

Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 178(1)(i) of the Constitution.

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chairperson, just on a point of clarity: The Northern Cape delegation consists of six people. None of them were consulted. And I don’t know on what basis our representative voted in favour … [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: All right. Be patient with one another.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I think you have given a ruling and the voting has taken place. There is no basis for what Mr Sinclair is saying. You can’t reopen the discussion when we have already voted. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Before the closing of the House, I call upon the Deputy Chairperson. She has a ruling to make and then she will adjourn the House. [Interjections.] No, I am not taking any points of order.

Mr M P SIBANDE: Chairperson, is it parliamentary for an ordinary member to say: “Dit is onnosel [That is stupid]” to the Chairperson?

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chairperson, no, I didn’t say so.

Mr M P SIBANDE: Chairperson, he said that. I can speak Afrikaans. The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Take your seat, Mr Sibande. Mr Sinclair, did you say that?

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Not to the Chairperson.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You said it to whom?

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chairperson, I referred to the hon Chief Whip.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: But that is still wrong. Could you withdraw those words?

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chairperson, I will withdraw.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much.

Mr M P SIBANDE: Chairperson, sorry again. After that, please, this thing mustn’t happen like this. He is saying the Chairperson is stupid. [Interjections.] Who is stupid then? Who is stupid then? No! no! no! We can’t use this language here.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Take your seat, Mr Sibande. Mr Sinclair, did you say that?

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chairperson, I didn’t say the Chairperson is stupid. I already withdrew what I said to the Chief Whip. The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mr Sinclair, I said to you withdraw. Please can you withdraw those words.

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chairperson, I withdraw.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Respect one another in this House. You are not allowed, in terms of the Rules, to use such words.

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chairperson, then we must do it collectively, please.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay.

                POINT OF ORDER RAISED ON 7 JULY 2009

                              (Ruling)

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon members, this is a ruling on a point of order raised by hon Sinclair, and I hope all of you remember it. This was during the sitting of 7 July 2009. I’ve since consulted the Hansard records in order to make an informed ruling on the matter.

The hon Sinclair objected to a statement made by the hon Mabe during her speech. The hon Sinclair’s grounds for objection was that, in terms of the Rules, a member is not allowed to refer to a previous debate or a debate in another House.

In terms of our Rules of debate, specifically Rule 47, no member, while addressing the Council, may reflect upon any decision of the Council in the same annual session, except for the purpose of moving that such decision be amended or rescinded.

The emphasis in the Rule is on any decision of the Council, rather than on any statement that may have been made. I, therefore, rule that the statement made by the hon member was in order. Thank you. [Applause.]

The Council adjourned at 15:19. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Draft Bills submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159

   1) Safety at Sports and Recreational Events Bill, 2009, submitted by the Minister of Sport and Recreation. Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Sport and Recreation and the Select Committee on Education and Recreation.

2. Introduction of Bills

 1.     The Minister of Sport and Recreation

     (a)     Safety at Sports and Recreational Events  Bill [B 7 –
          2009] (National Assembly – proposed sec 75)


         Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on Sport
         and Recreation of the National Assembly, as well as referral
         to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in
         terms of Joint Rule 160.


         In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification
         of the Bills may be submitted to the JTM within three
         parliamentary working days.

1. Bills passed by Houses – to be submitted to President for assent

(1)    Bill passed by National Council of Provinces on 8 July 2009:


      a) Appropriation Bill [B 5B – 2009] (National Assembly – sec 77).

1. Membership of Committees (1) Mr B A Mnguni has replaced Mr T E Chaane as Co-Chairperson of the Constitutional Review Committee with effect from 8 July 2009.

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Council of Provinces

The Chairperson

1. Report of the Select Committee on Finance and Appropriations on the Appropriation Bill [B 5B-2009] (National Assembly- sec77), dated 8 July 2009.

The Select Committee on Finance and Appropriations, having considered
the subject of the Appropriation Bill [B 5B-2009] (National Assembly –
sec77) referred to it and classified by the JTM as a section 77 Bill,
reports the bill without amendments.