THURSDAY, 17 SEPTEMBER 2009 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
                                ____

The Council met at 14:02.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

                             NO MOTIONS

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I’ve been informed that the Whippery has agreed that there will be no Notices of Motion or Motions Without Notice, except the motion on the Order Paper, which I will come to later on.

However, I need to indicate that in the Programming Committee yesterday we agreed that we would look at the question of next week and pronounce to the House today. The Chief Whip will then later on, after the questions, move a motion in that regard. We will now proceed to the Question Paper, and I call upon the Deputy President. Thank you, Deputy President, for coming. We are aware of the problems that you had last time. The House considered them and postponed your questions until today.

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:

Co-operation between government and NMA Salga and/or Salga regarding
             service delivery at local government level

1. Ms N D Ntwanambi (ANC) asked the Deputy President:

   (1) Whether there has been any discussion between the government and the National Members Assembly of the SA Local Government Association (NMA Salga) and/or Salga regarding the recent protests in several provinces; if so, what was their response with regard to the issues raised by the communities;

   (2) whether there was any commitment towards working together in developing a plan to address the issues that communities raised about the inability of municipalities to deliver efficient and effective services; if so, what are the relevant details; if not,

   (3) whether the government considers it necessary to engage this structure in order to find solutions for the grievances that communities are raising around the delivery of services at local government level; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details? CO29E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, allow me to tender my apologies for inconveniencing the NCOP before I deal with my response to the questions asked by hon Ntwanambi.

Government has had numerous engagements with organised local government, represented by Salga, on the recent service delivery protests and many other issues that are of interest to all of us.

A few weeks ago, President Zuma and various Cabinet Ministers met with premiers from all the provinces, mayors of metros, and the Chairperson of Salga as well as senior officials from the three spheres of government. The purpose of the meeting was to discuss ways in which the three spheres of government can work together in a co-ordinated fashion to speed up the delivery of services and to address the concerns of citizens so that we can prevent the eruption of similar protests in future.

Other leaders of government, especially the Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs and the Minister in the Presidency: Performance Monitoring and Evaluation as well as Administration, have been visiting municipalities, particularly those affected by protests, to find out about problems faced by communities and, together with the affected communities, to discuss solutions for dealing effectively with problems experienced.

We consider Salga and other institutions of local government to be important partners in addressing problems faced by our people and accelerating service delivery. In due course government will present a comprehensive strategy on how to address problems in local government. We hope Salga and other role-players, in government generally and society at large, will join us in addressing the problems and uplifting the quality of life of all of our citizens. I thank you.

Discussion between government and other social partners and stakeholders regarding improvement of quality of services rendered by municipalities

1. Ms N D Ntwanambi (ANC) asked the Deputy President:

   (1) Whether there has been any discussion between the government and other social partners and stakeholders such as civil society and the private sector to work together towards improving the efficiency and effectiveness of the quality of services that are delivered by municipalities; if so, (a) which stakeholders were engaged, (b) what issues were highlighted and (c) what plans were established; if not,

   (2) whether government considers this necessary; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, when can such an initiative be expected? CO30E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, hon members, allow me to reiterate what we have said before: Our government values the contribution that our social partners and stakeholders in civil society and the private sector are making towards the development of our country.

We are immensely grateful for the support we have received from organisations and institutions such as the Development Bank of Southern Africa through the “Siyenza Manje” [We are doing it now] programme, which has deployed about 500 experts, especially development planners, financial specialists and engineers to 174 municipalities.

We are also grateful for the support that we have received from the business trust, which is a partnership between government and business that is focused on job creation through tourism. The business trust has also provided support to municipalities for their management of capital projects and assets. Examples of the involvement of civil society and other stakeholders in improving service delivery reaffirm our belief that the enormity of the challenges facing our country can only be addressed if all of us pool our resources and efforts and channel them towards a collective effort.

In conclusion, I would like to say that we will be asking for more support from civil society and the private sector to assist us in addressing the enormous challenges municipalities face in delivering services to our people. I thank you.

UMBHEXESHI OYINTLOKO WEBHUNGA: Sekela-Mongameli, ndikhawulezile, kule ndlela yokuzama ukuthetha-thethana nabantu jikelele, ingaba iinkokheli zemveli niyazibiza na ukuba nazo zize kwesi sithebe senu?

USEKELA-MONGAMELI: Mhlalingaphambili, ewe kunjalo. Njengokuba ndanditshilo ngaphambili, uMphathiswa woRhulumente woBambiswano neMicimbi yeMveli nguye osikhokelayo kule mizamo siyenzayo yokuba sincede abantu bakuthi kule ngxaki bajongene nayo yokungafumani zinkonzo kakuhle. Kunjalo. Enkosi. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Deputy President, without wasting time, I would like to know if you have invited traditional leaders to be part of the discussions you are going to hold with people in all spheres. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, yes, it is like that. As I mentioned before, the Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs is the one leading us in our efforts to assist our people with the challenges they are faced with as far as lack of service delivery is concerned. It is like that. Thank you.]

Mr T HARRIS: Chairperson, Deputy President, one of the most obvious forums for collaboration between government, the social partners and business is Nedlac. The response to the global financial crisis was published more than six months ago by that body. Can you explain why it has taken so long for that body to respond to the global financial crisis, given that some papers are already reporting that we may be coming out of the recession; and why the state and its social partners and business have yet to implement its plans to respond to that recession?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Deputy President, to me it sounds like that is a new question, but my view has always been that if you are ready and have an answer, you may continue. However you are not compelled to answer.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, hon Harris, as we all know, the response to the global crisis was developed early in the year, around February, and the efforts to implement it were interrupted by the election campaign.

Since the establishment of the new administration, all stakeholders have hit the ground running. We are, in essence, busy with our efforts to respond adequately to this global meltdown. In fact, our framework has been accepted by the International Labour Organisation, ILO, as a template that they recommend to all other countries that are affected by this economic meltdown. Therefore, the commitment is intact. I know that the President is due to convene his meeting with the parties represented in Nedlac to assess where we are in terms of the implementation of that framework. Thank you.

Mnu D D GAMEDE: Sihlalo, okokuqala nje asiqale sibongele uSekela Mongameli wezwe ukuthi wasinda kulesehlakalo esicishe samvelela. Sibonge ukuthi uNkulunkulu wamgcina.

Umbuzo wokuchibiyela kungaba wukuthi ehhovisini likaSekela yini abayibone ukuthi yenza ukuthi izidingo zabantu zingalethwa kahle ngomasipala kuze kube khona nale mibhikisho ekhona? Bazibalile yini ezinye izinto ukuze umphakathi nawo wazi ukuthi uhulumeni kukhona akwenzayo ngoba usezibonile mhlawumbe lezo zinto. Ngiyabonga.

USEKELA MONGAMELI: Ngiyabonga baba, siwuhulumeni esikubonayo ukuthi lapha koHulumeni Basemakhaya empeleni abantu bakithi abawenzi umehluko phakathi kwamakhansela nathi njengamaLungu ePhalamende kanye noMkhandlu Kazwelonke Wezifundazwe.

Okusho ukuthi kulenqubo Kahulumeni Wokubambisana kusobala ukuthi uma singaxhumani kahle senze futhi ukuthi amaKhansela ethu abenalo ulwazi ngalendlela esisebenza ngayo, bahlale ngaso sonke isikhathi benalo ulwazi ukuthi uHulumeni Kazwelonke uzimisele ukwenzani, izinhlelo zime kanjani, nakuzona izifundazwe. Leyonto iyona edala inkinga ngoba abantu bakithi basuke bacele kuKhansela izinsiza ngesinye isikhathi okungukuthi lowo ngumsebenzi wezifundazwe kanye nohulumeni kazwelonke bese kudaleke ukuthi manje kubekhona ukungaboni ngasolinye.

Kanti futhi kukhona nokuthi izinhlelo (IDP) azivezwa kahle ukwenzela ukuthi nomphakathi wazi ukuthi yikuphi okubalulekile okufuneka kuqalwe ngakho. Umasipala ezokwazi ukuthi asebenzele phezu kwazo. Ziyemukelwa kodwa kutholakale ukuthi zaziwa laphaya yikhansela ngaphandle umphakathi awazi kanti futhi nabanye uma ubabuza usuxoxa nabo bakuchazele ukuthi inkinga ababhekene nayo ngeyamanzi. Leyonto ayaziwa yiwo wonke umuntu, ngithatha ukuthi yiyo inkinga enkulu esibhekene nayo kumakhansela. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Mr D D GAMEDE: Chairperson, firstly, let’s start by rejoicing with the Deputy President of the Republic for having survived the incident that nearly befell him. We thank God for saving him.

An additional question would be whether they have noted, in the office of the hon Deputy President, why people’s needs are not being met with regard to service delivery by the municipalities, which has led to these protests that are taking place? Did they list some of these things, so that civil society also knows that there is something that the government is doing, because they have already noted those things? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, sir. What we see is that our people cannot differentiate between the councillors at local government level and us as Members of Parliament as well as those from the National Council of Provinces.

This means that with regard to the procedure of this Government of National Unity, it is clear that we have to communicate well with our councillors and inform them of the way in which we do our work, and also inform them at all times what the Government of National Unity is going to do, for example, what programmes are in the pipeline, even in the provinces. That creates problems because our people end up asking for services from the councillors when that is the responsibility of the provinces as well as national government, which results in disagreements.

The Integrated Development Planning programmes are also not well communicated; hence civil society does not know what should be prioritised. The municipality will be guided by them. They are submitted but only to discover that they are known by the councillor only and that civil society out there does not know about them. Hence, when you engage in conversation with them they will tell you that their problem is with regard to water. That is not known by everybody. I assume this is a major problem that we are facing with regard to our councillors. Thank you.]

Rre G G MOKGORO: Modulasetulo, ke kopa gore Motlatsamoporesitente wa naga ya rona a re bontshe tsela jaaka ikonomi ya rona e amegile bobe. Re le baeteledipele mo malatsing a gompieno, a go sengwe se se bontshang gore se ka re fa tshepo ya gore kwa re yang teng re ka bona ikonomi e botoka? Ke a leboga.

MODULASETULO WA KHANSELE YA BOSETŠHABA YA DIPOROFENSE: Rre Mokgoro, ke potso e ntšha eo. Ga se potsotlaleletso e e tshwanetseng e theiwe mo potsong e e boditsweng. Fela ka gore ke a lemoga gore ga re a tlwaela, nka se thibele Motlatsamoporesitente gore fa a na le karabo a go arabe fela o itse gore ga e tsamaelene le potso e e kwadilweng mo pampiring. Motlatsamoporesitente ga ke itse gore a o batla go e araba.

MOTLATSAMOPORESITENTE: Modulasetulo, ke a leboga Modulasetulo gore ke bo ke boditswe potso e e ntseng jaana. Ke tla e araba ka gore mathata a ikonomi ga a aparela rona re le esi jaaka Aforika Borwa. Ke mathata a tota a simolotseng kwa Amerika, jaanong ke ka moo mafatshe a G20 a rileng Amerika e tshwanetse go tswa pele mo mathateng gore le rona re tle re tswe mo mathateng a ka gonne ke yona mmaraka o mogolo. Sekai, fa re lebelela dijanaga, e rile fa ba sa tlhole ba reka dijanaga tse dintšha kwa Amerika, kgang eo ya re utlwisa botlhoko ka gonne Volkswagen le Mercedes Benz kwa Kapa Botlhaba di ne di aga dikoloi tse di rekisiwang kwa Amerika mme fa ba sa tlhole ba di tlhoka batho ba fokodiwa mo ditirong.

Dimmaene tsa rona tsa polatinamo le tsona di kgona go nna le mmakete fa dijanaga di ntse di dirwa. Selo se sa fetela kwa dimaeneng kwa diketekete di fokoditsweng mo tirong. Ke ona mathata a re leng mo go ona mme a tlile go tsaya gongwe dingwaga di le pedi tse re yang mo go tsona. Re tla tswa mo sekgweng gongwe ka ngwaga wa 2013. E tla bo e le gona re tswang mo mathateng a a ikonomi. (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)

[Mr G G MOKGORO: Chairperson, I would like to request the Deputy President of our country to lead us in this time when our economy is in a crisis. As the current leaders, can we say there is hope for a better economy for the future? Thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mr Mokgoro, that is a new question. It is not an additional question arising from a question that was asked. Since I am aware that it is not a habit, I cannot stop the Deputy President from answering you if he has an answer, but just know that it does not correlate with the question on the Question Paper.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, I like this kind of question. I would answer by saying that the economic crisis is not only faced by us in South Africa. It is a crisis that started in America. That is the reason why the G20 countries said America has to recover first, so that all of us can also recover, because they are the big economic market.

For example, when we look at the motor industry, as soon as people in America stopped buying new cars, it hurt us very badly because Volkswagen and Mercedes Benz in the Eastern Cape were building cars that were sold in America, so when they no longer needed them, people had to be retrenched.

Our platinum mines also benefit from the market when cars manufactured. This thing also made its way to the mines where thousands of people were retrenched. That is the crisis we are in and it is going to be like this for up to two years. We will get out of this jungle by 2013. That is when we will get out of the economic crisis.]

Particulars regarding keeping of data in respect of total number of persons benefiting from indigent policy

1. Ms N D Ntwanambi (ANC) asked the Deputy President:

   (1) Whether during the past five years the Government undertook a national audit or currently keeps data in respect of the total number of persons benefiting from the indigent policy; if so, how many persons benefit from this policy in each province;

   (2) whether the statistics are sufficiently in line with the Government’s commitment to protect and cater for the most vulnerable in our communities such as the poor, child-headed households and pensioners; if so, what are the relevant details; if not,

   (3) whether there are any plans to keep such information to determine the effectiveness of the indigent policy; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details? CO31E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, hon members, with regard to whether a national audit is being done to track beneficiaries of the indigent policy, we do keep data, but we cannot say that it has been professionally audited. The indigent policy covers all areas of social services. Households earning below R800 per month, as per the census of 2001, are classified as indigent. Should their circumstances change, they are removed from the beneficiary category. New ones are added accordingly if they fall within the category. Those falling within this category benefit from the various services of government: health, education, basic services and other related initiatives that relieve distress. For example, municipalities retain the details of those falling within the category of free basic services. The Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs only stores statistical data on the number of households which are benefiting. The statistical data is updated annually. So, regarding the second part of your question, which is whether national government keeps data, the answer is yes, but only to the extent that the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs collates data from municipalities and aggregates it.

With regard to beneficiaries, in March 2009 there were 3 226 000 out of 5,5 million households who were classified as indigent as per the census. Significantly, over half of the households that qualify for free basic water do benefit in all provinces. The picture with regard to free basic electricity is mixed with some provinces doing better than others. The provincial breakdown shows that with regard to free basic electricity the Western Cape province and the Free State province are in the highest bracket, while provinces in the lowest bracket are the North West and KwaZulu-Natal. With regard to free basic water, both the Free State and Gauteng provinces fare much better with 99% and 90% respectively.

The Minister of Education declared 40% of learners to be in no-fee schools in 2009. Individual provinces, given the availability of provincial funding, have exceeded the 40% determined by the Minister. The School Nutrition Programme is targeting 5,6 million learners in 18 000 quintile 1, 2 and 3 primary schools. About 6 053 schools have vegetable gardens as a result of this programme.

The majority of the municipalities are in the process of reviewing their indigent registers to ensure that services are provided only to intended beneficiaries. This will include child-headed households as a means to protect and cater for the most vulnerable in our communities. Yes, there are plans to retain such information to determine the effectiveness of the indigent policy. This information is housed in the database within the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. Follow-ups are conducted with respect to local municipalities that are not performing well.

To improve systems, speed and capacity to deliver on our commitments to the poor is our priority. We are fully aware of the role of other spheres and we are accordingly engaging them to intensify our efforts. We believe that through initiatives like integrated planning, capacity-building and performance monitoring the identified weaknesses will be eliminated in due course. I thank you.

UMBHEXESHI OYINTLOKO WEBHUNGA: Sihlalo, Sekela-Mongameli, kubakho oomasipala abaye bathi bona abaphisi ngambane, ingakumbi apho umbane uza ngo-Eskom. Urhulumente uthini kulo ndawo?

USEKELA-MONGAMELI: Mhlalingaphambili, lungu elibekekileyo, yingxaki leyo urhulumente azimisele ukuba uza kuyicazulula ngoba njengokuba sisazi ukuba ngeli thuba imilinganiselo ikwinkqubo yokumiselwa. Sibonisene ukuba oku kubalulekile. Lo mba wokuba ngowuphi umboneleli oza kubonelela ngombane ubaluleke gqitha ngoba oomasipala abaninzi bafumana ingeniso yabo ngokubonelela ngombane. Ngalawo mazwi ke ndithetha ukuba yingxaki esiyaziyo leyo, umcimbi uphethwe. Ndiyabulela. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chaiperson, Deputy President, there are municipalities who say they don’t provide free electricity, especially electricity provided by Eskom. What does the government say about that?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, hon member, that is a problem that government is going to deal with, as we know that measures are in the process of being implemented. We are convinced that this is important. This issue of which service provider will provide electricity is very important because the revenue of most municipalities is increased through providing electricity. With those words I mean we are aware of that problem. The matter is being dealt with. I thank you.] The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Chair, I thank the Deputy President for his response. Further arising from the issue of the supply of electricity, there is another problem that we have picked up in our constituencies. That problem relates to the role of water boards. We have discovered that some areas are being charged differently. Some areas are even worse in the sense that they do not even get these services.

Municipalities always respond by saying that they are not in control of the supply of water; the supply of water is in the hands of the water boards. Can the Deputy President shed some light on this by telling us to what extent government is working towards radically transforming these water boards to respond to the needs of our people wherever they exist? Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, hon member, I think I’ll be able to elaborate on this question when I respond to one of the questions posed by hon member Worth. If you allow me, Chairperson, I would rather deal with it when I respond to one of those questions on rural development.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We are allowing you, Deputy President, to do so.

Mr T HARRIS: Chair, arising from the Deputy President’s response with regard to the indigent policy and the beneficiaries of that policy, last week the Governor of the Reserve Bank asked:

When millions of people depend on social grants for sustenance, and urban legend has it that teenagers fall pregnant so as to gain access to grants, are we not running the risk of these social grants becoming an end in themselves and thus nurturing a dependency syndrome, destroying the fabric of our society?

With regard to the indigent policy you referred to in your response, can you comment on the risk that the Governor of the Reserve Bank mentions in that statement? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, on 18 July, Prof Muhammad Yunus of Bangladesh delivered an inspiring lecture in honour of former President Nelson Mandela. One of the profound points that he made was that charity freezes poverty. I thought that was a very profound statement, which meant that, instead of giving people charity, we should all be looking at ways of empowering them to be able to help themselves.

This professor formed the Grameen Bank in Bangladesh to assist women. To date, it has about 8 million women who benefit form it. These women also own and control the bank. So, he was saying we have the potential as a country to condemn poverty to the museum. He also challenged us by saying we can wipe poverty out completely in this country in the next 20 years if we adopt the attitude that for every problem we find a solution, particularly with regard to poverty.

So, social grants are really not sustainable and desirable in the long term, except for the aged and those who are completely incapacitated. With regard to the rest of the sections of our people who are beneficiaries of social grants, we should really find a way of empowering them in our approach so that the number of social grant recipients can decrease instead of increase. We should really strive to take it in that direction. Of course, when we go through difficult times such as recessions, job cutbacks and an increase in numbers of the unemployed, as government we have to be in a position to give relief to those who are in dire need. In the long term the correct approach is to eliminate reliance on social grants, particularly for able-bodied people. Thank you.

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, last Friday $1,3 billion, which was earmarked for unemployment, was received from the European Union. Could the Deputy President tell us whether this money is going to be used for opportunities, such as those he just spoke of?

I would also like to know, if I may add on to my question, if there is a single database for indigents? This question arises from the fact that there is a correlation; it’s not just in a municipality, it goes on to further grants.

Thirdly, in our constituency weeks we picked up a huge problem with child- headed families in schools. We would like to know whether there are special programmes for them in the pipeline somewhere. Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, one of our antipoverty strategies is to find change agents within households that live in abject poverty. We realised that if we tackle this challenge of poverty in that fashion, we could very well identify one or two members of a household who, with the correct focused support, could lift that family out of the poverty in which they are mired. Therefore, when we receive any resources, it will be channelled in that direction to try and ensure that these households do not pass poverty on to the next generation.

This morning I met with a group of youngsters who lived on the streets for years. Some of them lived on the streets for up to seven years. They play street football, which is now an organised sport. These youngsters have just returned with silver from Milan in Italy. Therefore they are world champs and they add to the array of world champs that we have. These are street kids. They were so inspired by what they have been able to achieve.

This is something which indicates that even for those whose conditions seem quite hopeless it is possible to find a way of assisting. There are two gentlemen who are managing and coaching them. Now they’ve got support from a group of Americans and a film about their achievement, which will be shown across the globe, is about to be made. The timing is perfect, because we are hosting the 2010 Fifa World Cup next year.

To be more direct in responding to the question, our approach in tackling the issue of poverty is one that seeks to empower people. We do understand that relief by way of grants is but a palliative; it’s not really a solution to the problem.

I’m not aware of a consolidated database of the indigent across all municipalities. The Ministry for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs will, without a doubt, work on the efforts of trying to consolidate that. At the moment I’m not aware that they already have that. Thank you.

Assessment of progress made in respect of gender transformation in the public service

1. Ms N D Ntwanambi (ANC) asked the Deputy President:

   (1) Whether, over the past five years, there has been an assessment or audit of gender transformation in the Public Service particularly at management and senior management levels to determine the progress that the government is making in implementing its commitment to gender equality and the empowerment of women; if not, why not; if so,

 (2)    whether such progress is satisfactory; if not, what is the
       position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details?
                                                          CO32E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson, our government has committed itself to the acceleration of gender mainstreaming in the Public Service, and it regards the issue of gender equality to be of the utmost importance in the development of our country.

This commitment has led to the development and implementation of a number of policies and programmes targeting women’s empowerment and gender mainstreaming in the Public Service. Amongst these initiatives is the inclusion of gender equality in the Public Service as one of the strategic imperatives in government’s programme of action, with a target set at achieving 50% women’s representation at all levels of senior management.

Although we did not meet the set target by March this year, as planned, we have nevertheless made good strides that are worth noting. For instance, in 2002, the total number of women in the Public Service was 52% and by December 2008 that percentage had increased to 54,38%, which is slightly higher than the 52% population of women in this country.

The representation of women at senior management level also increased from 17% in 1999 to 34% in 2008. In this regard, South Africa exceeded the SADC minimum requirement of 30% in March 2006.

Evidently, much work still needs to be done. To address this challenge, government has introduced the Gender Equality Strategic Framework, which is specifically aimed at meeting the 50-50 target.

In addition to the Gender Equality Strategic Framework, government has also introduced the head of department’s eight-principle action plan for promoting women’s empowerment and gender equality within the Public Service workplace.

Furthermore, gender focal points have been established in seven out of nine provinces and in 30 out of 43 national departments. The primary function of the focal points is to ensure the successful implementation of gender policies according to the gender policy framework.

Government is committed to the advancement of gender equality in the Public Service and South Africa at large. It is for this reason that we have established the Ministry of Women, Children, Youth and People with Disabilities. One of the important tasks the new Ministry has been requested to undertake is to conduct a study to identify factors hindering government’s progress in meeting equity targets with regard to women at senior management levels. We hope that the findings of the study will assist us to work even harder to meet the targets during the term of this government. I thank you.

UMBHEXESHI OYINTLOKO WEBHUNGA: Sekela-Mongameli, uza kuthini urhulumente ngokubhekiselele kumanqanaba karhulumente angahambisaniyo nendlela urhulumente afuna ukuba umasilingane ahambe ngayo?

USEKELA-MONGAMELI: Sihlalo, kaloku xa sisithi … (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Deputy President, how is the government going to address the challenge of spheres of government that are against equity and the way the government wants it to be implemented?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, when we say…]

… we are mainstreaming …

… loo nto ithetha ukuba sisonke siza kuwuqwalasela lo mcimbi ngalo lonke ixesha. Ndiyazi ukuba kwiKhabhinethi, ibhodi ayisoze yamkelwe xa ingenalo inani eloneleyo loomama. Loo nto ithetha ukuba siza kukwazi ukuba lo mcimbi noko siwuchane kuba sisonke siza kusebenza ngendlela ethi … (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[… that means we will be attending to this matter all the time. I know that the Cabinet would never approve a board that does not have the required number of women. That means we will be able to handle the matter accurately because together we will be working in a manner that suggests that …]

… we are mainstreaming.

Asifuni ukuba oomama babekelwe bucala. Sifuna ukuba kuyo yonke into eyenzekayo xa kupapashwe izithuba, kubantu abenze izicelo nekuza kuqhutywa udliwano-ndlebe nabo, amanani oomama noko aqwalaselwe. Ndiyabulela. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[We do not want women to be isolated. When vacancies are advertised, amongst the applicants who will be interviewed the number of women must also be considered. Thank you.]

Mnu D D GAMEDE: Sihlalo, Sekela Mongameli, kukhona isilinganiso esabekwa sokuqashwa kwabantu abaphila nokukhubazeka okungamaphesenti amabili. IMinyango eminingi kahulumeni isakuthola ukunzima ukufika kulesi sibalo. Imiphi imizamo manje ethe ukuqinaqina ezokwenziwa ukuze iMimnyango kahulumeni ifike kulesi silinganiso samaphesenti amabili? (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Mr D D GAMEDE: Hon Chairperson and hon Deputy President, a 2% target was set for employing people living with disabilities. Most government departments find it difficult to reach this target. What other stronger initiatives are going to be implemented so that government departments can reach the target of 2%?]

USEKELA-MONGAMELI: Sihlalo, urhulumente wethu umisele eli Sebe loLawulo laBasetyhini, aBantwana, uLutsha naBantu abaKhubazekileyo ngenxa yokubaluleka kokuba abantu bakuthi, nabo bakhubazekileyo, bakwazi ukuba nabo badlale indima yabo.

Kusasa nje, ndigqithe kwii-ofisi zecandelo loonobhala zeShumi leMinyaka ye- Afrika elikhokelwa ngabantu bakuthi balapha eMzantsi Afrika, abagogekileyo ngokwamalungu omzimba. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, our government created this Ministry for Women, Children, Youth and People with Disabilities so that our people, including those who are disabled, can realise the importance of playing their role.

This morning I passed by the offices of the Secretariat of the African Decade of Persons with Disabilities, which is led by South Africans who are physically disabled.]

Both the United Nations and the African Union recognise that we are leading, as a country, in ensuring that people living with disabilities are also integrated. We should not believe that they cannot make a contribution. That is why even in this government the Deputy Minister of Public Works …

… ngumntu okweli candelo silikhankanyileyo. Ngenxa yegalelo lakhe, sithemba ukuba … [is someone in this category that we have mentioned. We hope that because of her contribution …]

… over and above the fact that we have a dedicated Ministry, we will be able to meet this target of 2%. Ndiyabulela. [Thank you.]]

Co-ordination of projects of Department of Rural Development and Land
               Reform with those of other departments

 5. Mr D A Worth (DA) asked the Deputy President:


  How will the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform co-
  ordinate its projects with other Departments such as Health, Public
  Works, and Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs to ensure
  (a) that rural development projects are successful and (b) food
  security?                               CO54E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson, as articulated in the Medium-Term Strategic Framework, a document translated from the electoral mandate of the governing party and approved in principle in the extended Cabinet meeting in May this year, the main aim of the rural development strategy is to transcend the rural and urban divide and improve the quality of life of rural households, enhancing the country’s food security through a broader base of agricultural production and maximising the diverse economic potential of each area.

The White Paper on this important matter will be presented to the hon members early next year for discussion and enrichment. In broad terms, though, the Medium-Term Strategic Framework asserts that the building blocks for the rural development strategy should include implementing meaningful land reform linked to water rights and stimulating agricultural production through: one, strengthening institutional support and creating economies of scale as well as facilitating access to business services, agricultural inputs, markets and value chains; two, enabling access to fencing off agricultural areas, agricultural loans, high-quality agricultural extension services through marshalling public and private resources; three, revitalising rural towns because dynamic regions require vibrant centres or service nodes; four, exploring and supporting nonfarm economic activities, including tourism – domestic and international – light manufacturing and cultural initiatives; five, implementing a development programme for rural transport, the objective being to improve mobility and access; six, enhancing the role of agricultural co-operatives in the value chain, including agro-processing; and, seven, improving service delivery in education, health, housing, water, sanitation and energy, as well as enhancing skills development.

As the successful Eastern Cape rural development project and the pilot in Muyexe village in the Greater Giyani demonstrate, critical to a successful rural development strategy is a strong and dedicated co-ordinating body. The Eastern Cape rural development project succeeded in planting and harvesting maize on 6 000 hectares of land that was last cultivated 20 years ago. This was enabled by bringing together various stakeholders, including the private sector, under the auspices of Asgisa Eastern Cape.

The initiative formalises a number of business relationships of stakeholders ranging from communities to those who will be involved in off- take agreements such as large retail chains, value-addition activities or providing input, business, field and technical support.

In Greater Giyani the rural development department took the lead and mobilised communities and many government departments to intervene and bring hope to the rural people of Muyexe. For example, I am informed by the department that no less than three departments have already pledged various forms of assistance in their particular areas, the result of which will be an integrated rural development intervention.

The Department of Rural Development and Land Reform will continue to take the lead in co-ordinating, facilitating and integrating rural development interventions. However, in the medium to long term, consideration will be given to establishing an overarching rural development agency.

Working together with the department, the agency will have responsibilities that include co-ordination, thus ensuring the participation in and support for the programme by all departments, provinces, municipalities, state- owned enterprises, NGOs, donors, financial institutions, and so on. This includes, among other things, the co-ordination of development planning and social facilitation, planning and resource mobilisation, monitoring and evaluation. The difference between previous rural development strategies and this one is that in this one the role of co-ordination is highlighted and will be the focal point. Infrastructure has been placed at the centre of sustainable rural development. And rural development, together with decent job creation, is now the central mandate of all government departments.

Lastly, lessons from previous rural development strategies have been incorporated. We are confident that working together with all social partners, and our communities in particular, we will indeed transform our rural areas into thriving and successful social and economic spaces. I thank you.

If you could now allow me to also deal with the question the hon member asked about the water boards, a question I undertook to deal with when I responded to this question. We are a country that is semidesert, so water is a very scarce commodity. As a government we are alive to this challenge, that our next crisis is going to emanate from this very problem.

We are preoccupied with ways of addressing this problem. We are looking at various options as to how we can solve this problem. One option may very well be that we pipe water from neighbouring countries such as the Democratic Republic of Congo. Otherwise, we are indeed going to run into difficulties. Many of our communities that are targeted for development under this new Ministry of Rural Development and Land Reform will be faced with serious water challenges.

We are looking at water rights as well because in many of the areas where dams have been constructed we find that the surrounding villages and communities do not have access to that water. These are some of the bottlenecks that we are looking at. And, of course, the water boards in the urban areas do suffer like local municipalities do in general from poor billing systems. Most of the time, residents receive bills that are inconsistent because the billing system is very poor. So that is a problem that we are alive to, and I believe we will be able to find the solution to it. Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr D A WORTH: Chairperson, I’d like to thank the Deputy President for his comprehensive reply to my question. I’d also like to ask the Deputy President if I could please have a copy of that for our committee.

Deputy President, as you stated, the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform is a new department, and it has a budget of only some R500 million. Now, as I understand it, this department is there to initiate projects, and there will then be co-ownership of these projects through health, public works, co-operative governance, etc.

Have certain monies been earmarked or ring-fenced to assist the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform via the other departments, such as Public Works, that may have to come to assist, or is this going to be just part of their budgets? I’m worried that with the pressures on all the other departments they will not have sufficient funds or can’t assist this new department. Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The approach, as I said, is that other services that come from other departments, such as in the areas of health and education and so on, are meant to assist this new department. In fact, in their pilot project in Muyexe, the department was really, at that point, in the embryonic stage and yet it was able to co-ordinate all other departments in order to inspire that community and to ensure that it rendered the necessary services.

Now, for starters, the resources allocated – set aside – are very, very limited, but this is a priority area and we are quite certain that they will be able to be given a substantial percentage of the national Budget because this is a very, very important area. We are mindful of the fact that the one area of growth in our economy at this point in time, which is construction, is going to come to an end after the Fifa World Cup, and we would want, at that point, to be sure that there is enough development taking place in rural areas to countervail the impact of construction in urban areas coming to a halt. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Chairperson, thank you very much to the Deputy President. Chair, you will forgive me if I do not ask a question, or if my question is irrelevant. I can see that they are seated next to each other because maybe the question is relevant to the Minister of Higher Education and Training. It has to do with rural development.

Hon Deputy President, last week during provincial week, and understanding rural development as one of the key priority areas, we visited an area in Vaalharts in the Northern Cape. Having visited the research station, we came across very serious information that was quite disturbing. The senior researcher disclosed to us that one of the things that was going to affect our approach or governance programme of rural development negatively is the question of skills development. This is because, he said, in the country at the moment there were only 10 agricultural engineers and he said that he was left with about three or four years until he retired.

The question is: what deliberate effort is being made to ensure that there is a programme aimed at skills development in the area of rural development and, in particular, with regard to agricultural engineers, agricultural economists, and so forth? He was blunt: He said that the problem we were faced with was that all 10 were over the age of 50 and white; that very soon they would be retiring and that they didn’t know what the country was going to do. That is why I apologised before, Chair.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Tau, you are setting a bad example. Two minutes for supplementary questions. Please don’t relate a story. You’re all aware. You’re an old member.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, hon member, for bringing this very important challenge to our attention. You couldn’t have posed it at a more apposite time than you have done now, even though you are sliding it in as an additional question. It is very important because the Minister of Higher Education and Training here next to me is in charge of our human resource development strategy, and he took note of the comments you’ve made.

The poverty of skills in our country – very important skills - is a general challenge. I think, and the Minister has taken note of it, we will apply our minds as to how best to tap into those skills and ensure their input in the approach of reproducing similar skills. These retirees, I think, would be very important to mobilise and ensure that we get larger numbers to be trained by them. Retirement must not mean that you stop working. It must mean that you simply slow down. So, we hope that the Minister here, in implementing the human resource development strategy, will indeed be able to mobilise those skills. Thank you.

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy President, given the fact that we have a skewed geographic-economic dispensation in South Africa in that the eastern part of South Africa is much more developed than the western part of our country, and in terms of the very serious drive from this government to engage in rural development, would you agree that a deep-sea harbour in or close to Port Nolloth in terms of export potential would address that issue?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, well, that’s a new question and I’m willing to take note of it so that I can tap into the collective brain in the various Ministries with regard to that issue. Port Nolloth would be … [Interjections.] [Laughter.] No. [Interjections.] Port Nolloth and Saldanha would be in the same line. I don’t know – we’re taking note of that and we’ll have to look at it. As part of rural development, an area such as the Richtersveld, which, I think, could be developed for both domestic and international tourism, would benefit from that kind of development, I suppose. So, we are taking note of it. Thank you.

Mr D A WORTH: Chairperson, I would just like to say to the Deputy President that most of these places are rural. We went to Giyani, but I never saw any solar heaters or solar panels there. Hopefully, that will be the intention with the development, especially in these remote areas, as well as introducing water-saving devices. In Giyani there is a dam, but it looks like the dam is going to be dry, in this very dry area, and water might have to be piped in eventually to the dam. I would just like to ask the Deputy President what his ideas are on that.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, yes, I agree, hon Mr Worth, that an area such as Giyani should really be assisted with the generation of solar power. In fact, I am aware that there are initiatives, led by the Ministry of Trade and Industry, to establish factories for the manufacturing of solar panels in these rural areas, particularly in the Northern Cape because there is a lot of sunshine there.

I am also aware that part of the challenge facing us with the generation of electrical power is the fact that the use of private generators is kind of limited because their price. We’ve always prided ourselves on marketing the country as a country that supplies the cheapest electricity in the world. And, I think, if we are to succeed in addressing rural development, we have to look at other forms of generating electricity for it to remain affordable but that would also address our obligations with regard to carbon emissions. I am aware of work that is being explored in that regard.

The essence of our rural development strategy is really to close the gap, the divide, between urban and rural and that would see investment in bulk infrastructure in rural areas. That is the only way in which development can become sustainable and properly diversified.

A province such as the Northern Cape, which is vast and sparsely populated, unfortunately, has not been selected to host in 2010 and therefore has not benefited from investment in infrastructure development that other provinces have been able to benefit from. I think that province deserves special attention. Thank you. [Applause.]

Particulars regarding line functions and responsibilities of new Department of Economic Development

1. Mr T Harris (DA) asked the Deputy President:

   Whether the line functions and responsibilities of the new Department of Economic Development have been identified and formalised; if not, why not; if so, (a) what are they, (b) how do they relate to the responsibilities of the Department of Trade and Industry in the (i) old and (ii) new Cabinet structures and (c) how do they relate to the planning and policy development responsibilities of the National Planning Commission in the Presidency? CO55E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson, substantial work has been done in identifying the line functions and responsibilities of the Department of Economic Development. To clarify the Ministry’s focus and mandate, I shall draw on two policy statements made by the President which remain the position of government.

In motivating the new Cabinet structure, President Zuma stated on 10 May this year that “Cabinet has been reorganised to achieve better alignment between the structure, our electoral mandate and the developmental challenges that need to receive immediate attention from government.”

In line with this, the President announced that a new Department of Economic Development had been established to focus on economic policy- making. And, during the Presidency Vote on 24 June this year, the President stated:

Some people are wondering why we have both the Department of Trade and Industry and that of Economic Development. Trade matters will require a strong focus to have a direct impact on industrial organisation and output. The Economic Development portfolio will have a strong domestic focus and will address, amongst others, matters of macro and micro economic development planning.

The establishment of the National Planning Commission does not replace the need for planning in departments and spheres and agencies of government. The way in which the national planning process has been structured takes cognisance of the fact that departments, spheres and relevant state entities would have the requisite strategic planning capacity and responsibility.

The role of the Minister in the Presidency responsible for the National Planning Commission would be to integrate the work of the NPC into government and Cabinet. Additionally, the Minister will also facilitate the input of the various departments and spheres with regard to the development of the national strategic plan.

As members should be aware, the Green Paper on National Strategic Planning was tabled in this House on 4 September this year. As President Zuma indicated, the affected Ministries are working together to align their work and respective responsibilities. I thank you.

Mr T HARRIS: Chairperson, Deputy President, in light of the recently released Cosatu report, which notes that there is not a single reference to the role of the Economic Development Ministry in that Green Paper on National Strategic Planning you referred to, how do you envision the co- ordination of the policy, given that the Minister in the Presidency does not even acknowledge the Minister of Economic Development in his plans? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, well, I thought the words of our President, who has stated publicly that these Ministers work together, answered that question. Anyway, the Green Paper is a discussion paper and it is meant to generate debate and discussion, and it will therefore evolve into a much more coherent document after all of the inputs and debates and discussions have been concluded. At the moment, it is a Green Paper, and I don’t think we should make much of whatever comes across as weak. The idea, really, is that it should elicit inputs from all of us. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Thank you very much. Is there any other supplementary question? If there are none, then let me take the opportunity on behalf of the Chairperson of the Council and the Council to thank the Deputy President for having availed himself. And, once more, I express our happiness and excitement about the fact that despite all the things that have been reported or said, the Deputy President was able to come today and respond to questions in the manner in which he did. Thank you very much, hon Deputy President. [Applause.]

                           SOCIAL SERVICES
                              Cluster 2 MINISTERS:

Particulars regarding cashing of social grants at private businesses

1. Mr R A Lees (DA) asked the Minister of Social Development:

   (1) Whether beneficiaries of social grants are able to cash their grants at private businesses; if so,

   (2) whether participating businesses which pay out the grant on behalf of the state can impose conditions on the paying out of such grants, such as insisting that a certain portion of the grant be used to purchase goods at the business; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? CO65E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, with regard to cash payment contracts, beneficiaries of social grants may choose to cash their grants at private businesses. The SA Social Security Agency, Sassa, is aware that beneficiaries are receiving their grants at private businesses, which have been subcontracted by cash payment contractors in terms of the current payment contracts.

Private businesses cannot impose conditions on the paying out of grants as beneficiaries are entitled to receiving their full grant amount. The outstanding service level agreements signed between Sassa and service providers explicitly state that beneficiaries should be paid the full grant amount they are entitled to. The service level agreements do, however, permit service providers to introduce alternative payment channels that are meant to improve access to social grants by beneficiaries through the provisions of the service level agreement and legislation.

In terms of these alternative payment channels that the service providers enter into with private businesses, there is also a new service level agreement that we have entered into which looks into improving the quality of service we deliver to our people. Maybe we should specify that it’s not all the provinces that have contracts with private businesses. This service is rendered throughout the provinces of KwaZulu-Natal and the Northern Cape. In the Western Cape, it is rendered only in rural areas, and in Mpumalanga it is rendered in some parts of the province. Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr R A LEES: House Chair, Madame Minister, thank you very much for that reply, and I do appreciate it. But given the reply that there should be no conditions imposed on the paying out of social grants, there appears to be conditions that are being imposed. Is your department not aware of this happening? If it is aware of this happening, is any action being taken where cash payment contracts are being abused or not adhered to by the service provider?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, there are instances where the department, working together with Sassa, has intervened. This is where you will find that businesses are forcing especially the aged to take groceries instead of their money. Where this has happened, we have cancelled the contract. It’s actually not us but the service providers that cancel the contracts because people don’t meet the standards.

I also think it is important for us to say that, with regard to service level agreements, service providers and private businesses have to consult with Sassa before entering into the contract. What is also important is that people are not forced to get their grants from private businesses. They can go back to where they received their pensions before going to private businesses. Thank you.

Mr D V BLOEM: House Chair, Deputy Minister, I think you will agree with me that this issue of outsourcing is a serious problem in the country, and this is an example of outsourcing. If it is found that these people are outsourcing, what are you going to do with such people? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I think we have already dealt with the issue that when people do not meet standards the service provider cancels the contract.

Mr F ADAMS: Chair, I just want to ask the Deputy Minister what the department and Sassa can do about the loan sharks that enter the halls were people are getting paid in the Western Cape. Is there any way we can just restrict them to maybe 2km away from the halls so as to protect our vulnerable people, because these guys sometimes keep their cards and Ids? They go in with the people to the vending machines to collect the money. While they collect the money on the one hand, they give the money over to these sharks on the other hand. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, what we all know is that there is an agreement that no one should be around the area where pensioners receive their grants. The department is in the process of dealing with this matter, working together with the special investigation units.

As to how we are going to deal with the matter, we are not going to say it here. But we are trying to ensure that none of the cases we have lodged is dropped. This is because, for instance, here in the Western Cape there is a case that was reported and then dropped during the process. So, we are trying to strengthen our cases so that we can deal with the matter once and for all.

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, is there any service fee payable to these service providers? If so, what are the relevant details? Thank you. The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, if we are actually talking about private businesses, they have this contract because they want to attract more people to their businesses. They are the ones who hire gadgets from service providers for paying out pensions. So, the service providers don’t get a cent out of this because we don’t pay businesses. They only pay for the gadgets they hire. That is why we see no reason why they should force people to get groceries instead of their pension grants.

Mechanisms to monitor and evaluate quality of services at state clinics and hospitals

1. Prince M M M Zulu (IFP) asked the Minister of Health:

   Whether his department has any mechanisms in place to monitor and evaluate the quality of services that the various state clinics and hospitals provide to the public; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? CO74E

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, in reply to the question, I wish to refer the hon member to our government’s new programme of action for the next five years, which clearly reflects that we put a big premium on the issue of improving the quality of health care services. Point no 3 of our programme of action, or our 10-point plan, is about improving the quality of health care services. This means refining and scaling up a detailed plan on the improvement of quality of services, and directing its immediate implementation.

But, already, a set of national core standards for health facilities was released as early as 2008 and was used to benchmark an initial set of hospitals and health care centres. These standards are being extensively revised currently through a process of wide consultation and technical review. The organisational standards reflect existing national policies and guidelines and are organised in a number of domains in which quality or safety could be at risk, namely patient rights, patient safety, clinical governance and care, public health, strategic leadership and corporate governance, operational management and facilities management.

The revised standards will be piloted shortly in all provinces, prior to widespread use, to improve quality, to monitor and benchmark compliance and to accredit facilities. These standards will be expanded over time to become more complete and include other systems.

The department is planning and supporting a project for improving the quality of services in four specific identified problem areas within these domains. These are patient safety, infection prevention and control, waiting times and cleanliness in about 1 000 health care centres – that means both hospitals and clinics. The facilities and projects within them will provide detailed monitoring information as implementation proceeds.

Supervision is an integral function of managers at all levels – as a process to improve the quality of services on an ongoing basis. In the case of clinics, it is supported through a structured tool which we call a supervisory manual that guides the monitoring of services and the process towards improvement.

The District Health Information System, or DHIS, is a national system that collates data collected at all the clinics and hospitals in the country on a regular basis. This monitors both detailed programme plans as well as strategic objectives set for the department. Quality of services is monitored through measuring coverage of specific services or activities. The analysis of these, which forms a specific quality perspective, is being strengthened and gaps in indicators identified to be able to produce a customised response by the end of this financial year.

Complaints from patients constitute an important monitoring system for quality, and the existing call centres in some provinces and the national department will be integrated and their capacity to analyse complaints as a monitoring mechanism strengthened, ensuring co-ordination with similar centres, for instance the call centre in the Presidency.

Patient satisfaction surveys are carried out on a regular basis by external teams. The national protocol is several years old and is being revised to ensure standardisation. Patient satisfaction also forms part of several other surveys carried out over the past few years, for example, the evaluation of the national comprehensive Aids treatment plan. Thank you.

UMntwana M M M ZULU: Mphathisihlalo, ngiyabonga. Phini likaMongameli wezwe, oNgqongqoshe abakhona, maLungu ahloniphekile ale Ndlu. Ngqongqoshe ngikhuluma njengendoda yasemakhaya kwaNongoma, yikho ngithi endabeni yokuqapha ingabe ikhona yini into obusuyicabangile, noma-ke mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe kuzofuneka ukuthi uke ugcizelele ezintweni ezithile.

Kukhona into ekade yenzeka, ngisho nayizolo lokhu mhla ziyi-12, ingane yaphathwa yikhanda kodwa kwathi uma sifika kwaNongoma esibhedlela basitshela ukuthi umbhede awukho, kwaze kwazanywa ezinye izindlela zokuthi ize isiwe kwesinye isibhedlela Enkonjeni lapho eyafika yashonela khona.

Bese kuba khona le mitholampilo yasemakhaya, njengoba ngikhuluma njengendoda yasemakhaya elusa izinkomo, le mitholampilo yasemakhaya iyavalwa ebusuku. Ngakho-ke uma ugula ufuna ukushayela inqola yeziguli, kufanele ushayele eHhovisi Lesifunda eliseMgungundlovu ukuze ukwazi ukuthola inqola yeziguli ezosuka Olundi ihambe iye KwaNongoma izokwazi ukuhambisa umuntu esibhedlela. Zonke lezi zinto mhlonishwa - njengoba ninegunya elininikwe ngabantu bakuleli lizwe bethi bafuna impilo engcono – kuzodingeka ukuthi ukubheke lokho ngoba angikwazi ukukubeka icala ngalezo zinto ngoba yizinto ekufuneka zilungiswe lezo ngoba sikhonela khona ukulungisa izinto la emhlabeni. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Prince M M M ZULU: Thank you, Chairperson. Deputy President, hon Ministers who are present here, hon members of this House and Minister, I am speaking as a rural man from Nongoma, which is why I am asking whether you managed to come up with something with regard to monitoring. Otherwise, hon Minister, you will have to emphasise certain issues.

Something has been happening for a long time. Yesterday, the 12th,a child had a headache but when we arrived at Nongoma Hospital we were told that there was no bed available. We used other means to take the child to Enkonjeni, where the child died.

Then there are these rural clinics - I am a rural man who herds cattle - which are closed at night. Therefore, if you are ill and you need an ambulance, you have to phone the district office, which is in Pietermaritzburg. The ambulance will then be dispatched from Ulundi to Nongoma so that you can take someone to the hospital.

Since you have the authority given to you by the people of this country who say that they want better health care, you need to look into all these issues. I cannot blame you with regard to these issues because these are the things which need to be corrected because we are here to make sure that such things are corrected here on earth.]

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, I have just outlined a plan to do exactly what the hon member is asking me to do. That is exactly why I read such a long statement. I was not saying that we’ve eliminated all the problems mentioned, but that we have a plan to make sure that we resolve them. Thank you.

Mr W F FABER: Mr Chair, on the question the hon Prince asked, I saw that in the 2008-09 budget, which we went through the other day in the workshop, the department in the Northern Cape underspent on their budget. But if you look at the clinics, there isn’t enough medicine, cleaning materials, and so on. We saw some clinics in a very bad state. Then, a big worry to me is the new hospital in Barkly West in the Northern Cape, which is a state-of- the-art hospital, but I think it’s called the “hospital of death” as two or three people have died because there weren’t any doctors on duty. In terms of the monitoring process, I’d just like to know why our clinics and our hospitals don’t have staff or don’t have sufficient materials. What is the position and how are you monitoring it if we don’t spend our budgets correctly? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, I also wish to say to hon members that when they meet specific problems, as I have just said, in terms of monitoring, they have the right to inform us on an individual basis, to phone us – in the same way that there is a hotline in the President’s Office – and tell us what they are experiencing.

But I have just said that in recognition of this problem, the department has come up with a 10-point programme of action. If you go through it, it outlines the steps that we are going to be taking to eliminate some of those problems. I am quite aware of the problem of underspending, and of the problem of overspending in some areas in provincial departments. We have sat down with the Auditor-General and gone through that. We have instructed the CFO in the department to call the CFOs of all the provinces to sit down to develop a policy so that such things don’t happen again. Such a meeting took place about two weeks ago, and we are waiting for the report of what all the CFOs said. There is overspending on personnel but underspending on service delivery and we are worried about that because that is very abnormal.

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Hon Chairperson, thank you very much. My question to the hon Minister is about the participation of the community at the service delivery points of government. What responsibilities are there and also what opportunities are there to make use of the community in the councils of hospitals and clinics so that we can monitor from the community’s side service delivery from the hospitals and the clinics? Thank you very much.

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, they do play a very important part. That’s why, in this programme of action, the very same point which we put down, which we are working on, is to provide strategic leadership and create a social compact for better health outcomes. “Social compact” means exactly that: that the department must provide leadership and go to all the stakeholders and have a social compact with them, and find a role for each and every one of them for better health outcomes, because better health outcomes cannot be achieved by the department alone. Thank you.

Measures to enable persons without electricity and/or access to a TV set to watch 2010 World Cup matches

1. Prince M M M Zulu (IFP) asked the Minister of Sport and Recreation:

   Whether, in light of the fact that many persons living in the rural areas do not have electricity and/or access to a television set, his department has any measures in place to ensure that these persons also watch various matches on television and experience the excitement and the atmosphere during the 2010 World Cup Tournament; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? CO75E

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Hon Prince, I have been informed that the Minister or the Deputy Minister is not available, unless things have changed in terms of any Minister standing in for the Minister of Sport and Recreation. If not, then the idea was to allow the question to stand over and to proceed with the other questions.

Particulars regarding formulation of uniform policy on transport subsidies for rural learners

1. Mr M P Jacobs (ANC) asked the Minister of Basic Education:

   Whether, with regard to the transport subsidy system for learners in the rural areas (details furnished), her department will formulate uniform policy on transport subsidies for the rural learners in all provinces; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? CO76E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, all nine provinces provide learner transport programmes in rural areas as a point of focus. Currently, the policies governing the provision of learner transport in terms of subsidies vary from province to province.

The Department of Education, in collaboration with the Department of Transport, is developing a national scholar transport policy. The focus is on improving access to schools and redressing the imbalances of the past, with the emphasis on rural schools. The policy will provide guidelines in the provisioning, funding and management of learner transport. Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr R A LEES: Chairperson, that will do. Thank you. Deputy Minister, am I correct in hearing you say that all provinces provide transport in the rural areas? If that is the case, then I have a problem because in my area there is no such transport. I’m talking about KwaZulu-Natal.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, in terms of the policy and the allocations provided to provinces, each province should be providing transport to all learners that live in areas beyond the radius of five kilometres. I would imagine that particularly in areas such as KwaZulu- Natal, the Eastern Cape and Limpopo, adequate scholar transport is being provided for.

However, the allocations provinces provide for that particular purpose vary from province to province. Most of the provinces provide for transport for learners through the Department of Education. However, in two of the nine provinces, it’s provided for by the Department of Transport.

We are of the view, particularly with regard to issues such as those that you have raised, that everybody is caught within the network and that the Department of Transport should be the service provider so that there should be a uniform base of allocation with regard to subsidies and policy in relation to transport.

This attempt at achieving this unity has resulted in the engagement between the Department of Transport and the Department of Basic Education to ensure that a uniform policy, which will result in guidelines for the various provinces, is provided for. If there are instances where transport is not provided for where it should be, in terms of the existing policy, please draw our attention to it and we will make the appropriate intervention. Thank you very much.

Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, I would like to know something with regard to the funding. We were at a workshop the other day, and Treasury stated that the allocation of school funds for learners was R807 per school learner, and that at some schools only R400 or just over R400 got to them, and the department deducted for books on their own. I would like to know if that is legal, and if the full amount is not supposed to be paid to the school? Thank you, Chairperson.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, norms have been set out in terms of the allocation to schools per learner. The allocation has increased. At one stage it was, indeed, less than R500. It increased to R600, R642, and currently, it’s more that R800. We are of the view that the minimum threshold for an adequate provision in relation to a learner should be an amount exceeding R800. We would recommend, in terms of our guidelines and norms and standards, that provinces make the appropriate allocations.

However, you are correct. In the past, there were inconsistencies with regard to the allocation of resources to schools. In fact, in provinces such as Limpopo, the amount was much less than R400. This was not because they wanted to deprive the school or the learner, but because of the high poverty levels. Learners that made up quintiles 1, 2, 3 and 4 were far greater in Limpopo and the Eastern Cape than you would find in the Western Cape or in KwaZulu-Natal.

However, what Treasury did was to deal with the matter equitably. The weighting must be such that Limpopo is able to provide for learners on an equitable basis, in other words, on par as would occur in the Western Cape, which is more urbanised and where there is greater affluence, or in Gauteng. This has resulted in a better distribution.

However, there might be some inconsistencies. If you are aware of any, kindly bring it to our attention so that we can raise it with the leadership in the province. Thank you.

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, I would like to ask the Deputy Minister – I’m not sure if I understood him correctly – does each province have its own guidelines as to how it allocates its budget? The second question is: Is the 5km radius only linked to primary schools or to all schools? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, with regard to the policies and in terms of our constitutional arrangement, provinces have concurrent competencies. In fact, education falls within the purview of the provinces. As a result, there have been variations. That is why we have norms and standards to guide provinces in terms of the appropriate allocation.

What we are saying is that we provided an environment where there are standardised norms – standards which would guide provinces in terms of the allocation of resources. Such norms and standards did not apply in the past, but do apply now.

The reality, however, is that even though the provinces - the MECs for education in collaboration with the Ministry of Education - agreed to the allocation of resources for a particular purpose, say, transport in a province, the provincial treasurer could allocate those resources which are received globally from the National Treasury and utilise them for other purposes.

The unfortunate reality is that instances do occur, from time to time, where monies that have been allocated for a particular purpose by National Treasury are used for other purposes by the provinces. What we are trying to achieve as a government through our Performance Monitoring and Evaluation unit and the National Planning unit, which is led by the Deputy President, would be to ensure that where monies are allocated for a particular purpose in relation to a particular plan, those resources are spent in a particular way. It might well be that some resources should be spent centrally in order to ensure that it reaches the target. This might very well occur in relation to transport.

With regard to the norms, they apply to primary schools and high schools as well. Certainly, we are more sensitive to ensuring, where little children are concerned, that there should be absolutely strict compliance and adherence to those norms. Thank you very much.

Particulars regarding timeous disbursement of funds for no-fee school
                               system

1. Mr B A Mnguni (ANC) asked the Minister of Basic Education:

   (1) With reference to the no-fee school system which was introduced with the intention to address the plight of parents who could not afford to pay their fees, how will she inculcate the culture of learning and teaching when the administration has ground to a halt due to the unavailability or late arrival of funds;

   (2) whether she will intervene to ensure that funds are disbursed timeously; if so, what are the relevant details? CO80E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, after numerous complaints had been received from schools about the late or nontransfer of allocations to schools, particularly to no-fee schools that had been assigned functions in terms of section 21 of the South African Schools Act, the Minister of Education amended the national norms and standards for school funding.

The effect of these amendments was the following: In terms of the amendment, the transfer of funds from provincial departments of education to schools must take place in two instalments, firstly, on or before 15 May; and, secondly, on or before 15 November of each year.

We anticipate that this will assist in eliminating the problems experienced in the past. What used to happen in the past is that schools would receive one allocation. That allocation would be in May. A school’s calendar year starts in January. The result is that the monies are spent in a particular calendar year, with no resources available for the next year. By splitting it in the way we are doing now, schools are already in possession of the money for the following year in November of the preceding year, and are therefore able to budget and plan better. In relation to the second part of the question, if any instance is brought to our attention the Ministry would indeed intervene. We would, however, urge members to report noncompliance to their provincial MECs responsible for education. That does not detract from our national responsibility, but we do believe that noncompliance would be managed more appropriately by the MECs for education in the provinces. Thank you.

Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, I would like to thank the Deputy Minister for his reply. My question is: How will the Minister inculcate the culture of a work ethic in schools?

Even if the funds are available, some of the educators are not there. What is the Deputy Minister going to do to address that issue?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, that is not a follow- up, but it speaks to an aspect that the President has mentioned repeatedly, namely the non-negotiables in education: The teacher should be in class, on time, doing the task at hand; the learners should be present at school, learning; the parents are responsible for sending their children to school and ensuring that they do their homework.

This comprehensive plan by the ruling party, which was adopted by government and repeatedly endorsed by the President in his state of the nation address, addresses what has been raised by hon Bloem. It states that it is not only about resources being allocated to schools; education must be regarded as a societal issue. Unless and until all of us – district officials, circuit officials, teachers, principals, parents, and communities at large – take collective responsibility, we will not succeed in creating the kind of transformation in education that we want. So we do believe that your party in particular will have an enormous role to play in assisting us to achieve this outcome. Thank you.

Mr T M H MOFOKENG: Chairperson, my question is a follow-up on the issue of no-fee schools.

It is with regard to quintiles 1, 2 and 3. I don’t have any information on the ratio of quintile 3. I would also like to know the formula which is used to classify schools into quintiles 1, 2 and 3, as there are so many inconsistencies. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, if I understand the hon member correctly, what he said was that he was not very clear in terms of how and on what basis we arrive at different quintiles.

There are five quintiles, encompassing the poorest schools to the most affluent schools. Various factors are taken into account when determining a school’s quintile rating: whether the school community is urban or rural; whether the community living in the area surrounding the school is affluent or poor; what the school’s infrastructure is like; and what resources are available to the school.

So, many factors are considered and weighed in order to establish the quintiles. We have discovered, however – and I think this is a concern of the hon member – that the quintiles that had been established some time ago, have changed.

You might, in certain instances, find that a school has the infrastructure of a quintile 5 school – in other words, of a most affluent school – while the surrounding community or the learner population in that school belongs to quintile 1 – in other words, learners who should actually be exempted from fees. In such a case, it would not be appropriate to place that school in quintile 5.

We thus revise these quintiles annually. In fact, we are going to amend the legislation even further to allow provincial departments and MECs to change the quintiles, from quintile 1 to 2, depending on the variation that occurs within that learning environment.

So, these quintiles are not etched in stone. MECs for education have, in terms of our practice, always had the right to change them. In fact, while the Minister declares no-fee schools, the MECs for education – as the Minister of Health, who was a former MEC for education in Limpopo, would know, and, in fact, when he was, did something quite extraordinary: instead of declaring for just two quintiles, he declared for three quintiles, in terms of poverty alleviation in his particular province – have the right and discretion to increase the allocation and amend the identification of schools in terms of the no-fee school policy.

So, what we are saying then is that the national Minister determines in consultation with the provinces, but the MECs for education do have the right, the authority and the mandate to include or expand on that number, based on changes that may occur within the quintile arrangement of those particular schools.

I hope that has helped the hon member. Thank you.

Mnr M J R DE VILLIERS: Voorsitter, ek gaan die vraag in Afrikaans stel, as dit in orde is.

Ek wil dit aan die agb Adjunkminister stel dat daar verneem word dat sommige van die provinsies nie die volle bedrag wat aan die leerders by geengeldskole toegeken word, oorbetaal nie en dat ’n sekere bedrag deur die provinsies teruggehou word. Ek wil graag weet of daardie inligting aan die Adjunkminister bekend is, of hy bereid is om die saak te ondersoek, en wat sy optrede in dié verband sou wees?

Die ADJUNKMINISTER VAN BASIESE ONDERWYS: As daar so ’n voorval in u gebied sou plaasvind, maak dit gerus aan ons bekend. Ons sal die nodige stappe doen.

Wat wel in die verlede gebeur het, is dat daar nie ’n uniforme benadering ten opsigte van die uitbetaling van toelaes aan skole was nie. Volgens die huidige norme word daar wel ’n meer uniforme benadering toegepas. Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Chairperson, I am going to ask the question in Afrikaans, if that is all right.

I would like to put it to the hon Deputy Minister that it is understood that some of the provinces are not transferring the full amount that has been allocated for the learners at no-fee schools, and that a certain amount is being held back by the provinces. I would like to know if this information is known to the Deputy Minister, whether he is willing to investigate this matter, and what action he would take in this regard.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Should such an incident happen in your area, please make it known to us. We will take the necessary steps.

Indeed, what happened in the past was that there wasn’t a uniform approach with regard to the payment of grants to schools. In accordance with the existing norms, however, a more uniform approach is being applied. Thank you.]

Mr M P JACOBS: Chairperson, I have requested the ratio from the Minister for quintile 3. I have done so because in the booklet that we were given by Treasury only the allocations for quintiles 1 and 2 were indicated. There is no indication for quintile 3. I would like to draw a comparison because I have gathered information at a particular school that, for quintile 3, R100 per learner is allocated. I would like to determine whether this is correct.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): I really don’t want us to put the Minister on the spot here by asking for quantitative information, which he might not have available. Maybe we could agree that the information could be supplied by the department at a later stage. Is that okay? Thank you very much.

That brings us to the end of Question 14.

        Safety measures at Sithembele Matiso Secondary School

1. Ms M W Makgate (ANC) asked the Minister of Basic Education:

   Whether there are any safety measures in place at Sithembele Matiso Secondary School in the Western Cape where the acting principal was shot; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details? CO82E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, I want to thank Ms Makgate for raising this issue. The Sithembele Matiso Secondary School, situated in New Road, Gugulethu, is one of the 109 high-risk schools identified by the Western Cape department of education. A risk assessment was conducted by the department of education in the Western Cape education, safety and management unit.

The following infrastructure and safety measures are in place: The school fence consists of a solid steel palisade and is in good condition. The school also has palisade fencing between the various block sections. With regard to windows, they are fully secured and some of the windows are fitted with burglar bars and others with mesh stone guards. With regard to doors, all the classroom doors are fitted with steel safety glass. The entrance to the administration building is fitted with safety gates, and all corridors and entrances are secured. The school has an alarm system that is linked to armed response, and it is part of the closed-circuit television, cctv, pilot, which is fitted with 26 cameras, including pan, tilt and zoom cameras on a nine-metre mast on the perimeter.

The Western Cape department of education has, through partnership with the department of community safety, deployed five school safety volunteers at the school who assist with access control and patrol the school perimeter and hotspots on the playground, as identified by the school safety committee.

What we can say to you is that we share in the loss experienced by the school and the community. The Minister of Basic Education, the Deputy Minister of Basic Education and the Deputy Minister of Police visited the school, and we also had an opportunity to visit the family.

It does appear that even if you have the best measures in terms of safety, there is an important dimension that we tend to ignore, ie that of conflict management, values and attitudes that are so critical in ensuring that we create a safe environment that is conducive to learning. Thank you.

Mr M W MAKHUBELA: Chairperson, since this sporadic shooting happened and the community is threatened, is the Minister planning to declare that school a firearm-free zone?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, I can share with the hon member that that is a firearm-and drug-free zone. In fact, most of our schools are encouraged to do so, and we have also provided for opportunities for search and seizure to take place. So, that is definitely a firearm-free zone.

Particulars regarding set standard for numeracy and literacy for grades 7, 8 and 9

1. Mr M J R de Villiers (DA) asked the Minister of Basic Education:

   (1) Whether there is a set standard for numeracy and literacy for grades 7, 8 and 9 learners; if not, why not; if so, what is the standard;

   (2) what is the information of the standard on numeracy and literacy achievements for grade 7, 8 and 9 learners currently;

   (3) whether the set standards on numeracy and literacy are being achieved; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the reasons for the set standards not being achieved;

 (4)    whether any measures have been taken to improve the standards;
      if not, why not; if so, (a) what measures and (b) when will it be
      implemented?                       CO84E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, the reply is as follows: In relation to the first part, yes, our protocol and assessment defines adequate achievement in mathematics and language in these grades as scores between 50% and 59%. In relation to the second part, currently, information on learner performance in these particular grades resides at individual school level. With regard to the third part, achievement of this standard varies from school to school.

There are learners who achieve and exceed the standard, but some do not. With regard to the reasons, I can say my department is currently piloting an external national assessment of performance in mathematics and language at Grade 9 level to better understand factors that might impact on the achievement of learners.

From 2010, the Department of Basic Education will have this information at provincial and national levels. However, studies that have been conducted at Grades 3 and 6 indicate that some of the factors are associated with poor learner performance. Amongst others, there are the following: availability and proper use of appropriate resources, in order words, many schools don’t have adequate resources, including books and the appropriate calculators and equipment; language of learning versus the home language, where opportunities present themselves to teach in the home language schools tend to favour a language that is foreign to the learner in terms of his or her home language; teaching methods are not appropriate and often the educators are underqualified. Our current interventions therefore target these factors.

What we can share is the fact that, as a result of our assessments in Grades 3 and 6, which are conducted nationally, we have noticed an improvement in literacy, and particularly in numeracy in the nine provinces. However, the reality that the achievement and performance of learners in both numeracy and literacy is not satisfactory is not acceptable and much more has to be done to intervene in those areas.

The last part is part four. It’s answered in three, and part four relates to the interventions that have been made. Thank you.

    Position regarding current number of beds at children’s homes

1. Mr M J R de Villiers (DA) asked the Minister of Social Development:

   (1) Whether there are any problems with the current number of beds at children’s homes; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, (a) what are the problems and (b) at which homes;

   (2) whether any measures have been taken to address the backlog; if not, (a) why not and (b) who is responsible for the drawing up of these measures; if so, what measures;

   (3) whether any steps are in place to ensure that these measures are implemented; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, (a) what steps and (b) when will it be implemented? CO85E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, the reports that were received in July 2009 from all provinces show that, currently, we have vacancies, in terms of children’s homes, of 1 114. Actually, looking countrywide, we have a maximum capacity of 14 581, and the actual number of beds that are in use are 13 440, and then the vacancies are at 1 141. What we are trying to do now, is to ensure that we move towards the rural areas because most of the youth and child care centres are in urban areas.

Yes, although there are no backlogs reported with regard to the placement of children in children’s homes, we sometimes have administrative delays such as waiting for final court orders and designation letters. Despite this, there are measures in place to avert backlogs in the placement of children as prescribed in the Child Care Amendment Act, No 74 of 1983. These measures include the development of regulations, guidelines, norms and standards for placement of children into alternative care.

Lastly, yes, the national Department of Social Development has taken measures to ensure that there is monitoring and evaluation. As I’ve said before, there are also norms and standards that we are using to ensure that we are able to evaluate ourselves, heads of Social Development and heads of the forum, which takes place quarterly. Thank you.

Position regarding funding for schools qualifying for National School
                         Nutrition Programme

1. Ms N D Ntwanambi (ANC) asked the Minister of Basic Education:

   (1) Whether, in each of the past two financial years up to the latest specified date for which information is available, there were any schools in provinces that qualified for the National School Nutrition Programme (NSNP) but (a) did not receive funding or (b) received funding which was subsequently discontinued due to insufficient funds;

   (2) whether her department has put any measures in place to ensure that (a) all schools that qualify for the programme receive funding, (b) sufficient funds are allocated to implement the programme and (c) there will not be any disruption in the feeding of learners? CO86E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, my response to the hon Nosipho Ntwanambi is as follows: 1(a) According to the information available to the Department of Basic Education, there are no schools that qualified for the National School Nutrition Programme that did not receive funding; and 1(b) no school discontinued feeding due to insufficient funding.

In 2008, the exceedingly high food inflation experienced nationally as well as internationally put severe strain on the programme as the prices of staples rose remarkably. This was alleviated through an adjustment budget allocation from the National Treasury in October 2008.

2(a) Yes, measures were put in place and are in place to feed all deserving schools in 2009; quintiles 1 to 3 in primary schools and quintile 1 in secondary schools, according to the approved minimum norms of the programme.

Ms Ntwanambi would be glad to learn that in the Eastern Cape, for example, as a result of the expansion to Quintile 1 high schools, we are able to feed 72 822 additional learners and we are able to provide support to 182 additional schools.

Finally, all provinces verify the Education Management Information System, EMIS, data each year. In essence, schools that are not satisfied with their quintile status have an opportunity to raise any objections with their respective provincial offices, and if there were any schools in the province that qualified for the National School Nutrition Programme but did not receive the necessary funding, the funds will be allocated to these schools.

2(b) Sufficient funds are allocated to implement the programme in targeted schools as gazetted learner numbers are used to calculate provincial allocations. The resources that are allocated for the nutrition scheme are ring-fenced for that particular purpose. So, they are indeed verified, submitted to the national department and allocations are made accordingly.

2(c) The department is committed to ensuring that learners are fed on all school days, with no interruptions. We may share with you, Chairperson, that last year there were provinces that did this on only three out of the five days. Today we can say, in this year, five of the five days children in our schools are being fed. Officials from the national, provincial and district levels monitor and support the implementation of the programme in schools. Thank you.

Mr M P JACOBS: Chairperson, the Deputy Minister said that they are only allocating this to quintile 1 schools. What happens in other quintiles, for instance quintile 2 or 3? Some of the children from primary schools were on the nutrition programme, but when they go to secondary schools and they fall under quintile 2 or 3, that stops immediately. When will they extend it to other quintiles?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you, Chairperson. I share in the concern of the hon member, but as a result of the very same concern, and in terms of the discussion between the Ministry and the MECs for education, we believe that it has to be expanded. Previously, nutrition was only provided in primary schools, particularly for quintiles 1, 2 and 3. As a result of the decision taken by the ANC at the Polokwane conference, and the mandate given by our people, we have indeed expanded our programme to include quintile 1 high schools.

One must recognise that this has to be a progressive measure. Currently, we are feeding more than 6,3 million learners in our education system through the nutrition scheme. The expansion would obviously cover larger numbers of our learners. What we can share with this House is that the Department of Education in concurrence with the provinces has put a bid for quintiles 2 and 3 high schools. This means that we would not or should not have a situation where one child in primary school is being fed while the sibling in high school is being excluded. That speaks to the concern raised by the hon member and we do hope that, notwithstanding the constraints, Treasury is able to accommodate us, in which event quintiles 2 and 3 will also be fed at high school level. Thank you.

Mr M W MAKHUBELA: Chairperson, if I am irrelevant, will you please stop me? During the provincial week, we went to Phezulu and Zamazama schools in Limpopo. They are just 1,5km apart. Zamazama School gets feeding and Phezulu does not, because of these quintiles. Could the Minister be sympathetic and help Phezulu to get feeding?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, the hon member is indeed correct. There are situations like that, where schools within 1 or 2km of each other are in different quintiles. Therefore, through the Education Management Information System we submit to provinces, annually, the data that we have and the ranking of each school, and we invite them to review and revise them.

We have also indicated that if an MEC is of the view that the quintile is not correct, he or she could adjust that. I have even given the example of the former MEC for education - who is now the Minister of Health - who has adjusted many, many of the schools in the Limpopo province that may have been ranked as quintile 4, but had to be changed because of the poverty index.

Indeed, this is an ongoing process. From year to year there is a review that is taking place. But, indeed, it is an inconsistency, it is a contradiction that we have two schools on either side of the road, one being a beneficiary of the programme and not the other. Therefore, you should be the eyes and the ears of the communities and draw it to the attention of the MECs and the Ministry wherever you discover that. Thank you.

Position regarding discussions with Higher Education South Africa on long- term solutions to certain concerns

1. Ms N D Ntwanambi (ANC) asked the Minister of Higher Education and Training:

   (1) Whether he had discussions with Higher Education South Africa (HESA) on any concerns about (a) learners entering the higher education sector being poorly prepared and (b) the low rate of completion in regulation time in many higher education institutions across the country; if so, what was the outcome of the discussions in respect of the long-term solutions; if not,

   (2) whether he considers it necessary to engage this sector on the issue; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? CO87E

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: In answering this question, I have not had the opportunity to raise this matter formally with Higher Education South Africa, Hesa. It is my intention to consult with Hesa soon on this and other related matters. There are other initiatives currently in place, like the cohort studies, monitoring of graduation rates at institutions and introduction of foundation problems, which involved sector- wide consultations.

I consider it essential that I engage the higher education sector on the issues of poorly prepared learners and low completion rates. Government cannot deliver on its commitment to equity in the higher education system if large numbers of students from disadvantaged backgrounds fail their first year of studies and drop out of the higher education system. Commitment to equity involves more than just entry to higher education studies, it also involves ensuring success.

The department has two equity-driven funding mechanisms in place. These are the funding of foundation programmes and that of teaching development. The foundation programmes are sets of learning activities designed to improve the success rates of students from disadvantaged education backgrounds. Because these programmes involve the offering of additional teaching services to students, their curricula are normally extended by one year beyond the minimum time set for the corresponding regular programme.

The additional teaching services in an extended programme are organised into foundation courses, which prepare students for entry to regular mainstream courses. I would also like to say to hon Ntwanambi that there is also a very important initiative by the University of Fort Hare. where they have introduced what they call the grounding programme. The programme involves more than just assistance with the formal courses that the students are doing, but offer something like life skills on how to cope with life at university.

This is a very interesting initiative which we are looking at closely, possibly as a pilot that needs to be extended to all universities in order to improve the performance of students generally. We have had a funding cycle that is ending in 2009 in terms of allocations to foundation programmes. We are going to be renewing it from next year to 2012 as the next cycle. There are a total of 243 foundation programmes that have been submitted for my approval. I do provide further details there that I can leave for the hon member, in order for her to be able to get further information.

On teaching development funds, which are very important, the department also has such funds for development of teaching in regular programmes. These teaching development funds are variable amounts that depend on the operation of a mechanical formula. The average amount generated each year is about R350 million. However, I have asked the department to recommend a new teaching development policy so that we are able to make sure that we continue with these programmes.

Lastly, the policy proposals will include recommendations that the annual amount available for teaching development should be set initially at R400 million. This should increase at the same rate as the annual increase in the higher education budget. I thank you.

Mr G G MOKGOBI: Chairperson, I am glad that we have the Minister of Higher Education in our House today. Mr Minister, I know very well that in principle you have agreed to establish a university in the Northern Cape. I would like you to tell this House how soon will this institution of higher learning be fully fledged? [Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Order! Order, hon Mokgoro. [Laughter.] Is there a follow-up question? Because that was a separate question which is actually on the Question Paper, and the Minister will respond to that later on. There is a question related to that on the Question Paper. If you can just look at your Question Paper, you will see that.

Position regarding discussions with Higher Education South Africa about financial exclusions in higher education sector

1. Ms N D Ntwanambi (ANC) asked the Minister of Higher Education and Training:

   (1) Whether he had discussions with Higher Education South Africa (HESA) about financial exclusions in the higher education sector; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (2) whether his department and/or the sector has any plans to support financially needy learners that are unable to continue with their studies due to insufficient funds; if not, why not; if so, what plans;

   (3) whether he will consider engaging the sector in respect of financial exclusions before the commencement of the 2010 term? CO89E

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Chairperson, since taking office I have met with different stakeholders, including the leadership of Higher Education South Africa, Hesa, to discuss several issues pertaining to the higher education sector. As I said, I am also going to be having further consultations on a variety of issues.

The National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, remains the flagship vehicle by which government supports poor and academically deserving students. NSFAS continues to provide support to needy students who cannot afford to pay for their fees. In 2008, 153 795 students were supported by means of the scheme and since its inception NSFAS has distributed approximately R12,2 billion to needy students.

On 15 June 2009, I appointed a ministerial committee to review the National Student Financial Aid Scheme. The key objectives are to assess the strength and shortcomings of the current National Student Financial Aid Scheme, and to advise on the short, medium and long-term needs for student financial aid. The two objectives aim to promote the twin goals of equity of access and provision of free undergraduate education to students from working class and poor communities who cannot afford further or higher education. The review will evaluate different models of student financial aid, and make recommendations on the policy and operational changes required to ensure the effective and efficient achievement of these goals. It is envisaged that a final report will be submitted by December 2009.

With your permission, Chairperson, let me state here that part of this review also wants to respond to the problem of students who get assistance for tuition and accommodation but do not have any money for food. That creates many problems. We want to look at how we can actually give comprehensive support to poor students, especially to ensure that those who deserve support are not deprived of higher education because they come from poor families.

The last point is that next month I will be meeting with all the chairpersons of higher education councils to discuss, amongst other things, the issue of financial exclusions. We will be convening this meeting because we want to be able to respond better to this challenge by engaging before it actually overwhelms us. Thank you very much.

Mr M W MAKHUBELA: Chair, could the hon Minister explain to us how the deserving students will benefit? The report of the ministerial committee will be available in December, and in January or February the schools are reopening. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Chairperson, that is a very important question. However, the difficulty in answering it now is that we do not know what the recommendations of that ministerial committee will be. From the government’s point of view, we would like to introduce measures as soon as is practically possible.

We might find that some of the recommendations require some preparatory work or might have some budgetary implications that we might have to prepare for. But on our side we are committed to implementing as soon as possible measures for improvement that are needed in order to realise the goal of ensuring that every deserving student who is poor is able to access higher education.

UMBHEXESHI OYINTLOKO WEBHUNGA: Mphathiswa ndiyabulela ngale mpendulo. Ndiyayiva le ngcaciso yesibini, kodwa ndiyafuna ukuba undiphendule okanye uyithathe njengesiphakamiso. Kukho amakhaya apho abantu bexhomekeke kule mali yendodla kuphela, akukho yimbi. Kwaye eyona mali incinci yobhaliso kwezi yunivesithi, xa ndicinga mna, ngama-R3 000. Mhlawumbi ingabe ilungile kum kodwa la makhaya angenanto akasoze abenawo ama-R3 000 okungena esikolweni, ezinye izinto ezinjengoo-NFSAS zilandela oko kungena. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: I thank you, Minister, for this response. I understand the second explanation, but I would like you to respond to me, or rather, consider this as a proposal. There are families that depend solely on pension grants, and there are no other sources of income. And, the minimum registration fee at universities, I think, is R3 000. I may not have a problem with that, but disadvantaged families may not have R3 000 for registration. Other things, like the NFSAS, follow after registration only.]

UNGQONGQOSHE WEMFUNDO EPHAKEME KANYE NOKUQEQESHA: Ngibonga kakhulu sisi. Lo mbuzo wakho ubalulekile ngoba lokho ngezinye zezinto engethemba ukuthi lelikomidi lizosicushisa kuzona ukuthi senzenjani. Ngoba uzothola ukuthi abanye abantwana bavinjwa wukuthi - njengoba usho nje – awukho lo-R3000 noma u-R4000 ofuneka phambili. Kodwa abantwana bebe bengakwazi ukuthi basebenze baphase. Ngenye yezinto leyo esizoyibuka. Kukhona futhi enye into engifisa ukuthi nginethembise yona, uma ngibuyela kuloya mbuzo obukade ubuziwe ekuqaleni okhuluma ngokuthi sisho isikhathi sokuthi sizoyenza nini le nto.

Ukuthi ngokwethu sifisa ukuthi uma uphuma lo mbiko walolu phenyo siwulethe nalapha kule Ndlu, siwuhambise nangale eNdlini Yesishayamthetho, siwukhiphele emphakathini ukuze sikwazi ukuthi sithole izincomo zokuthi abantu bakithi bayibona kanjani le nto.

Enye into yokugcina nje, noma ungayibuzanga, kodwa ngithi Sihlalo, ngemvume yakho angiyisho: ayiqali lapha empeleni inkathazo yemali kubantwana abantulayo, iqala nje besafaka izicelo zokwamukelwa. Uthola ukuthi umtwana ufaka izicelo zokwamukelwa emanyuvesi mhlawumbe angaba yisikhombisa noma ayisishiyagalombili, kuthi leyo naleyo nyuvesi ifune imali yokufaka isicelo eyaziwa nge-Application Fee. Bese uthola ukuthi umtwana ugcina esebenzise u- R700 ukuya ku-R800 efaka izicelo kule nyuvesi nakuleya nyuvesi.

Into esifuna ukuyenza-ke isifundazwe saKwaZulu-Natali sesiyayenza le nto – sifuna ukuyenza manje kuzwelonke ukuthi uma ufuna ukuya enyuvesi kufanele ufake isicelo endaweni eyodwa kuphela bese bona bathatha uhlu lamagama abantwana abafake izicelo bawahambise e manyuvesi ukuthi naba abantwana abafuna ukufunda. Sifuna ukwenza le nto kuzwelonke ukuthi uma umntwana efuna ukuya enyuvesi, yinye kuphela indawo ekufanele afake kuyona isicelo bese ekhokha leyo madlana encane kuleyo ndawo bese kubhekwa-ke ukuthi iyiphi inyuvesi noma ikolishi elingakwazi ukumthatha. Ngiyabonga. Mnu D D GAMEDE: Ngqongqoshe Mphephethwa, siyabonga ngempendulo osinike yona. Ukulandelela nje, kungenzeka yini kubekhona ukuthi kubhekelelwe ikakhulukazi abafundi abasuka ezindaweni ezisemakhaya, njengoba uNgqonqgoshe ephathe indaba yokufaka izicelo nje kuyafana nendaba yokugibela. Ngoba omunye umfundi osuka ezindaweni zasemakhaya ukhokha kakhulu kusadingeka ayofaka isicelo enyuvesi ubanenkinga yemali ukuthi uzogibela afike nini kuthi uma efika afike umugqa usumude.

Ngabe ikhona yini indlela yokuthi sibhekelele laba bafundi abasuka emakhaya? Ziningi izindawo zasemakhaya, ngisuka eGingindlovu nje mina, bakhona abafundi basemakhaya abaswele izimali zokuya esikoleni namanje, nanokuthi-ke Ngqongqoshe, kukhona yini olunye uhlelo lokuthi uma kuqala unyaka ozayo abafundi balungiselelwe lolu hlelo oluzayo ukuthi basizakale? Ngiyabonga.

UNGQONGQOSHE WEMFUNDO EPHAKEME KANYE NOKUQEQESHA : Ngiyabonga kakhulu lungu elihloniphekile. Udaba lwabantwana basemakhaya udaba oluphambili kakhulu kithina kangangoba kwamanje njengoba bengikhuluma ngendaba yokuthi kusizwe abafundi abaqhamuka emizini entulayo ukuze bakwazi ukuphasa esikoleni.

Kunemali eyizigidi eziyi-R146 kulo nyaka ekhishwe yilo Mnyango yokusiza labo bafundi. Imali eningi kule mali iya ukuyolekelela ikakhulukazi kulawa manyuvesi akithi asezindaweni ezisemakhaya ekuyiwona vele athatha kakhulu abantwana abaphuma ezindaweni ezisemakhaya, wona angoNgoye, Inyuvesi yaseLimpopo nabo-Forte Hare. Ngizothi-ke izinto esizibhekelele njengamanje – njengoba ngisho nje ngithi yilolu phenyo. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Thank you very much, Madam. Your question is very important because that is one of the issues I hope that this committee will help us tackle. You will find that some of the children are prevented from registering because, as you mentioned, they don’t have the R3000 or R4000 which is a prerequisite, but they would have managed their work and passed. That is one of the things that we are going to look into.

There is also something that I would like to promise you, if I may go back to the question that was asked earlier on about setting up time frames. We want to table a report of this inquiry in this House, and then send it to the National Assembly as well as to the community so that we can get recommendations based on how our people view this issue.

One last thing, even though you did not ask, Chairperson, but with your permission let me say that the financial problem does not actually start here for the underprivileged children; it begins when they submit their applications for admission. You find that a child submits applications for admission to about seven or eight universities, and each university requires an amount of money known as the application fee. And then you find that a child ends up spending approximately R700 to R800 on application fees for the different universities.

The province of KwaZulu-Natal is already doing what we now want to do nationally. If you want to go to university you will have to submit your application to only one place and then they will submit the list of children who submitted their applications and send them to the other universities to indicate that these are the children who want to study. We want to do this nationally; if a child wants to go to university, there is only one place where he or she must pay money and then they check which university or college is able to admit him or her. Thank you.

Mr D D GAMEDE: Hon Minister Mphephethwa, we thank you for the response. To follow up on that, is it possible that assistance can be made available, especially to students from the rural areas, since the Minister mentioned the issue of submitting applications which is the same problem with regard to transport. Because a student from a rural area pays a lot of money for transport when he is expected to go and submit the application at a university. He or she encounters a challenge financially when he or she has to travel and when he or she arrives there he or she finds that the queue is already long.

Is there a way that we can assist these students from the rural areas? There are many rural areas. I, for one, come from Gingindlovu, and the students from these rural areas are in need of money to go to school even now. Minister, is there another plan in place for the coming year so that when it begins the students are prepared and they will be assisted? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Thank you very much, hon member. The issue of the children from rural areas is our first priority, so much so that even now I was talking about the issue of assisting students from poor families so that they can pass at school.

R146 million has been set aside by this department for this year to assist those students. Most of this money is going to assist the universities in the rural areas because they are the ones that admit mostly students from the rural areas. Examples of these are the University of Zululand, the University of Limpopo and the University of Fort Hare. I am saying that our focus right now is on this investigation. Thank you.]

We want the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, Review Committee to come up with comprehensive proposals to deal with these problems so that children from poor families are able to access institutions of higher education with minimal fuss so that they are actually assisted in every way possible. As far as this government is concerned, we want nothing less than that. We hope that when this report comes out, with recommendations that we think are going to address all those issues, we will have the full support of the Council. Thank you.

Position regarding amendment of regulations pertaining to receipt of social grants

31. Mrs M C Dikgale (ANC) asked the Minister of Social Development:


    Whether the existing regulations should be amended to make provision
    for spouses of employees of the state to qualify to receive social
    grants; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, (a) when
    and (b) what are the further relevant details?
                                    CO99E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, the response to Question 31 is that, yes, such spouses should ideally receive a social grant in their own right. However, the current means test focuses on the poorest of the poor, and the income of the spouse is generally considered in the application for a social grant. Ironically, the foster child grant is the only grant where the means test is not applied, since it is not a poverty alleviation grant.

Going forward, the interministerial committee on social security is considering the gradual removal of the means test so that, in future, neither the income of the applicant nor that of the spouse is taken into consideration for the old age grant because we are trying to ensure that the means test is only removed on the old age grant.

I think we all know that in Polokwane we took a decision that there should be comprehensive social security, and this is the process of ensuring that this is part of a comprehensive social security. Once a policy decision is made by Cabinet on the gradual removal of the means test for the older person’s grant the details of the implementation will be announced. Lastly, the interministerial committee will deliberate on the matter soon and will provide relevant details in due course.

Measures to ensure proper allocation of social relief or distress grants

1. Mr S P Plaatjie (COPE) asked the Minister of Social Development:

   (1) How does she ensure that the allocation of social relief or distress grants benefit households and/or individuals facing hardship;

   (2) whether there are any conditions or qualifying criteria designed to protect these funds from any form of abuse? CO108E The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, the SA Social Security Agency undertakes an assessment of applicants for social relief of distress, SRD, to make sure that they meet the requirements of the Social Assistance Act of 2004 and regulations promulgated in August 2008.

An application form is completed for each applicant and supporting documents to verify information must be attached to the application. Applicants must be South African citizens, permanent residents or refugees with insufficient means to meet their families’ most basic needs.

The following categories of persons qualify as recipients of SRD: refugees who have refugee status; a person awaiting payment of an approved grant; a person who has been assessed as being unfit for work for six months; a person who is not in receipt of maintenance from a parent or a spouse; a child to a breadwinner who has just passed away where the recipient or the applicant must have applied for the grant – applicants cannot merely insist that they want to qualify because their breadwinner has passed away, they must have applied before asking for SRD; a person whose family’s breadwinner has been admitted to an institution funded by the state, like a prison, a psychiatric hospital, an old age home, a rehabilitation centre for substance abuse or a child and youth care centre; a person that has been affected by a disaster where that area had been defined as a disaster area and is under the management of the Disaster Management Act, Act 57 of 2002; and persons where refusal of the application of the SRD may cause undue hardship.

We need to specify that the previous Minister, Zola Skweyiya, made a special proclamation with regard to the regulation that allowed children of school-going age to obtain school uniforms when they are in need of uniforms. He did this because they were recipients of the grant and that automatically caused them not to qualify, but the promulgation ensured that the provision also included them. Thank you.

Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, I would like to thank the Deputy Minister for her reply. This problem is a very serious one. While visiting the border last year, we were told by security forces that people were crossing the border at various points just to come and collect the grant, buy groceries and cross back again. How will the Minister address that type of problem?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): That is obviously a totally different question as it has to do with border control and related aspects. It is, of course, up to the Deputy Minister if she wishes to respond.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I am going to be very brief.

Security forces are part of the state. They cannot just observe people claiming the grant or SRD and then crossing our borders. There are criteria that apply to people who qualify for the grant.

So, if they are really security forces, they must report on fraud. I think we all know that the Department of Social Development has a telephone number where fraud can be reported. Also, we should take into consideration that there are sometimes issues of human rights and poverty that affect people across the borders of South Africa. Thank you.

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, I would like to inform the Deputy Minister that we have found – especially before the elections – ward councillors’ signatures on blank application forms for grants and food parcels. I would like to ask the Deputy Minister whether the Minister has been made aware of such irregularities and whether any action has been taken against those involved.

The second part of Question 38 refers to “any form of abuse”. I would like the Minister to explain to me how service providers of food parcels are regulated. We have found that there are front companies that buy from suppliers and then sell the food parcels to the SA Social Security Agency, Sassa, at prices that make my little bit of hair stand on end. I would like to know whether action would be taken if we gave the Deputy Minister the names of such service providers. Thank you. The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I think it would be good for us all to fight corruption. If anyone has information about corrupt practices, it should be presented to the department. There is nothing the department can do if it does not have information. We have said that we need to work together to fight corruption.

There has been a problem with food parcels. What we are trying to do right now is ensure that we have a standard amount for food parcels so that we don’t have people who have expensive food parcels. Issues of nutrition, distance and so forth are going to be taken into consideration in an attempt to ensure that we address the problems that we are experiencing.

With regard to prior elections, I don’t know what the member is talking about. It would also have been much easier if we had those forms that were signed by councillors.

 Engagement with provinces on reducing housing backlog and creating
                 sustainable, integrated communities

1. Ms M P Themba (ANC) asked the Minister of Human Settlements:

 (1)    Whether he has engaged the provinces on finding innovative ways
       to reduce the current housing backlog and create sustainable,
       integrated communities; if not, what is the position in this
       regard; if so, what are the relevant details;

 (2)    whether the measures that the provinces are putting in place are
       satisfactory; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant
       details;

 (3)    whether it is necessary to engage provinces in this regard; if
       not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the
       relevant details?                            CO91E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, yes, we have had a series of engagements with provinces and municipalities in dealing with the matter the member has raised. I must also say that the issue of the housing backlog has a history. What this government is committed to doing is exactly what the Freedom Charter wants us to do – to provide houses, security and comfort.

I’m happy that you have been part of this process of this department in which we are delivering housing in the Mbombela Municipality. We are not only building houses, but ensuring that there are clinics, schools and a crèche. At that development you would see that there is a crèche and a multipurpose centre.

I also want to say to you that we do have a programme that we have revitalised to ensure that we speak to the issue of the housing backlog. We have intensified the rental stock. We are trying to ensure that informal settlements are upgraded. We have what you call in situ upgrading of informal settlements.

In the light of that, we are also continuing with our pilot projects. The N2 Gateway is one example. The Zanemvula project is another example. We are also promoting what we call community residential units, CRUs. So, at the end of the day, we encourage co-ops in terms of housing. We are also encouraging members of the community to build housing for themselves – the People’s Housing Process, PHP. That programme is going ahead and we are ensuring that we are rolling it out in all provinces.

What we also want to say is that the provision of housing is not the responsibility of government alone. We need partnerships. We need the private sector to come in, and we are having discussions with big companies to ensure that they come on board in terms of the provision of housing. We want NGOs and CPOs to be involved, as well as individual members of the community to work with government. We are saying, “Working together, we can do more.” I thank you.

UMBHEXESHI OYINTLOKO WEBHUNGA: Enkosi, Sekela-Mphathiswa, ngempendulo. Njengoko sonke siyingxamele le nkqubo, kananjalo usazi ukuba abantu abanazindlu kwaye sizama ukuphucula iimeko ematyotyombeni, ingaba isebe lakho liya kubavumela na oomasipala ukuba nabo babe ngabakhi okanye le nto sithi zii-developers ngesiLungu?

USEKELA-MPHATHISWA WOBONELELO NGEENDAWO ZOKUHLALA: Lungu elibekekileyo, siyabavumela oomasipala ukuba bokhe izindlu, kodwa kukho oomasipala abangenako ukuwenza lo msebenzi kuba unzima kubo.

Oomasipala, ingakumbi ezidolophini ezinkulu ezifana noo- … (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Thank you for your response, Deputy Minister. I would like to know whether, as we are looking forward to this project knowing that people have no houses and that we are also trying to improve conditions in informal settlements, your department will allow municipalities to be constructors as well, what we call developers in English?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Hon member, we do allow municipalities to build houses, but there are those municipalities that are unable to perform that duty because of their incapacity.

Especially the metro municipalities like…]

… Durban, City of Cape Town, Mandela Municipality and others are able to build houses. But it is difficult to have a one-size-fits-all approach. We want to assist those municipalities that are not able to do so. But there are particular criteria we follow to allow a municipality that is at a particular stage to build houses.

Kodwa siyathetha nabo. Kangangokuba, siza kuyizimasa le nkomfa ye-Salga, SA Local Government Association, izayo ngoba zisimisele ukusebenzisana noomasipala ekuphuculeni intlalontle yabantu. Enkosi. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[We are engaging with municipalities. And as such, we will attend the Salga, SA Local Government Association, conference because we are determined to work together with municipalities to improve the welfare of the people. Thank you.]

Mr D A WORTH: Chair, I’d like to ask the Deputy Minister if a physical audit has been done of all the houses that are supposed to have been built. Why I ask this is because at a certain municipality 200 houses were supposed to be built, but when there was an actual physical count there were only 180 houses. The municipality hadn’t built the other 20 houses because they needed the funds for other things. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: That is obviously not a follow-up question. It needs investigation on its own.

Into esifuna ukuyithetha yeyokuba – uxolo … [What we want to say is that

• excuse me …] … because you’re not speaking English. What I want to say is that we want to monitor every aspect of what is being delivered. We have a legal and monitoring unit in the department which investigates whether the projects that a municipality says it has are in place and what the challenges are that they are facing on the ground. We are continually monitoring that so that, at the end of day, we want the government to get value for money. Thank you.

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, only a lady could get my name right the first time.

With regard to the first section of the question, I’d like to ask the Minister whether, in the whole process of determining the current backlog, new housing databases were put together in each local municipality, and whether a deadline has been set for that. When will the Minister get all the details? Are they being fed to the Minister? And when will the results be made available to us?

And, then, something that really worries me about housing. The Minister spoke about a programme on upgrading houses, and I presume that was for putting in ceilings in the houses or perhaps for extending the very small houses from earlier years. We have a problem with the maintenance of houses. Is there a programme in terms of which people can be encouraged to maintain their houses or improve them and have the responsibility of protecting their own assets because those houses are now in their names? Thank you. The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, once a person has a house, particularly if a person has a title deed, that person becomes an owner. Then the maintenance becomes the responsibility of that particular person. The issue of maintenance arose from the issue of rental stock because in that case the property still doesn’t belong to you – it either belongs to the municipality or to government, so the maintenance there should continue because you are renting.

But if you rent to buy, as soon as you take ownership you, the owner, should continue with the maintenance. We cannot have an issue of maintenance in general. It’s only those units that were built by the government with the rental stock where there is maintenance. As soon as they get transferred to individuals, the individuals themselves must maintain their houses.

So, it is really difficult to know about the issue of the database, because we are allowing municipalities to audit in terms of their housing needs. There is no way that we can close it. It should be open-ended to allow people as they apply for the houses to continue.

What you could talk about is the consolidated database, the housing demand database. This is exactly what the department is working on, so that we can have a database that helps people understand where they are in terms of the waiting list. You can press a button and know. This is so that housing delivery can be on a first come, first served basis and there won’t be people jumping the queue. I thank you.

UMBHEXESHI OYINTLOKO WEBHUNGA: Ikhona nje indawana, Mphathiswa, endingayibuzanga, ngakumbi emva kokuba undiphendule kakuhle kangaka. Siyayibona inkqubela e-N2 naseDelft, kodwa umbuzo wam uthi: Njengokuba siza kwakha izindlu eziphucukileyo ngoku, ingaba niya kuyithathela ingqalelo na into yokuba iplani le ifanelekile, kubekho izitalato, ukuze izindlu ziyeke ukubelekana nje kuba kusithiwa ngooveziinyawo?

USEKELA-MPHATHISWA WOBONELELO NGEENDAWO ZOKUHLALA: Kunjalo kanye, lungu elibekekileyo. Sifuna ukuba kubekho izitalato, kwaye sakhe amakhaya, hayi iidomatri, ngoba esele sizakhile ngoku izindlu ziziidomatri.

Sifuna ukwakha ngendlela apha eya kwenza ukuba abantu balime izityalo kwaye abantwana babe neendawo zokudlala … (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: There is a question, hon Minister, that I did not ask, especially after you have responded to me so very well. We do see the progress at the N2 Gateway and Delft but my question is, now that we are going to build decent houses, have you taken the suitability of the plan into consideration, that there are streets, so that there are no back- to-back houses based on the fact that they are called RDP houses?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR HUMAN SETTLEMENT: I agree, hon member. We want to have streets and build homes instead of dormitories, because the houses that we have already built now are dormitories.

We want to build in such a way that people can do gardening, and for children to have playgrounds …]

… in a community, which is not what we have at the moment.

Ndiyawuvuyela kakhulu lo mbuzo, mhle ngoba uchaphazela kanye kanye umba wokuba negama lesebe libe litshintshile ukusuka kwelezeZindlu laba leloBonelelo ngeeNdawo zokuHlala. Sifuna ukuba kube kuhle apho sihamba khona, hayi ukuba izitalato zethu zibe mxinwa ngoko zisokole izithuthi. Asiyifuni into enjalo, sifuna ukuba kube kuhle apho sikhoyo; nathi sifane nabanye abantu. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[I am very pleased with this question. It is good because it involves the very same issue of name change for the department, from the Department of Housing to the Department of Human Settlements. We want our places to be beautiful, and not to have narrow streets that will make it difficult for vehicles to be driven. We do not want that kind of a situation; we want our places to be beautiful and to be like those other people.]

Position regarding measures to curb fraud and corruption in allocation of houses

1. Mr M P Sibande (ANC) asked the Minister of Human Settlements:

 (1)    Whether he has engaged the provinces on implementing measures to
       curb fraud and corruption in the allocation of houses to
       communities; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so,
       what are the relevant details;

 (2)    how many government officials have been (a) dismissed or (b)
      arrested on reports or allegations of being involved in fraud and
      corruption in the allocation of houses in the provinces?
                                         CO93E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, a housing allocation strategy that prescribes the process of selection, evaluation and approval of housing subsidies to qualifying beneficiaries has been approved. One of the main changes to the allocation process is the fact that the process has been depoliticised. Municipal councillors, in particular, are no longer part of the selection process. The allocation process is as follows: As soon as the houses are ready for allocation and occupation, the project developer will request the National Housing Database administrator to provide contact details of a predetermined number of persons who are registered in the housing database. This process is strictly on a first come, first served basis.

Names are provided by the National Housing Database. These names will be given to the allocation committee comprising officials from the municipality and provincial housing, as well as the Human Settlements Department. The committee will evaluate the details of the persons provided by the National Housing Database. If a person satisfies the subsidy qualification criteria, they will then provide that name to the developer. The project developer will then invite the selected persons to complete housing application forms. Once the application forms are received, verified and evaluated by the allocation committee and found in order, they will then be presented to the MEC for final approval on behalf of the beneficiary.

The details of the officials who have been charged with or arrested for fraud and corruption regarding allocations will be made known at local government level. I thank you.

Mr M P SIBANDE: Chairperson, thank you, and again thanks to the Deputy Minister for her positive response. Nevertheless, in your observation, what kind of fraud or corruption is dominant among government officials in the department?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, we know the kind of concerns people have around the issue of our officials having access to subsidies that they are not supposed to. We want to remind people how it started.

It came out of a report in 2006 and 2007. It was because we were not using Persal, which is the government employment system, to check them. Now we are using that. We are able to detect these people who are defrauding government. What is important to know is that, to date, we have ensured that we get government’s money from these fraudsters.

A number of people have been investigated, and the government is on track in ensuring that those people pay back the money they took from government by fraud. I thank you.

Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, thank you very much. Deputy Minister, out of these people who were arrested, how many are serving a prison sentence for fraud and corruption?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, what we can say here is that we had 2 194 cases in total. Nine hundred of those cases went to court; 735 were convictions. We are in the process of getting government’s money back to our coffers. We are doing our work. We don’t want to see people in prison; we want to see people being rehabilitated, hon Dennis Bloem. I thank you.

Measures to assess whether and to ensure that occupants of state-subsidised houses are the intended beneficiaries

1. Mr M P Sibande (ANC) asked the Minister of Human Settlements:

   Whether his department has undertaken an assessment of whether the persons that are currently living in state-subsidised houses are the intended beneficiaries; if not, why not; if so, (a) what is the extent of the problem, (b) what measures are in place to curb the problem and (c) how many public servants have been identified so far? CO94E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chair, what we are doing right now is to take measures to regulate the situation on the ground. The problem with this question is that it is similar to the questions I have just answered. That is why I am stuck.

But let me answer it as follows: The process of improving the beneficiary management system is continuing. We curb corruption, particularly corruption by beneficiaries who are getting subsidies from government. We don’t want people to get a subsidy more than once. So, we developed a system where it can easily be detected if a person has already benefited in terms of a subsidy.

We are working closely with other departments. We are checking title deeds with the Deeds Office; we are checking information with Home Affairs; and we are also checking information in terms of the government system, as I have already said, so that we can easily detect whether a person has already benefited from the government subsidy.

I have already spoken about officials. This is almost the same question. I thank you.

Mr D A WORTH: Deputy Chair, I would just like to ask the Deputy Minister if the system also works across provincial boundaries. This is because in the past a person would apply for a subsidy, get a house, then rent it out, move over and apply again. Is this now in working order? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chair, that is exactly what we are doing. We are trying to have a system like a smart card in place, where one will just press it and then we will know that they accessed a subsidy in the Western Cape and that they are now moving to Mpumalanga. At the moment, we are working hand in hand with other departments to consolidate this system so that it is linked to one government system. We don’t want to have too many systems because then we won’t be able to detect if a person has already benefited from the subsidy.

This is with the exception of those who are in government, because with Persal we can see if a person does get funding from government. In terms of title deeds, we can see if a person has a house. But with other systems people cannot be detected. A consolidated one, which speaks to the systems of Welfare and Education, is a better one. That is what we are busy with. As soon as we are ready with the system, we will roll it out officially.

Mr M P SIBANDE: Deputy Chair, Deputy Minister, I want to find out whether the findings with regard to the assessment on the occupation of these houses will be published.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chair, we will definitely publish the findings of the assessment on the occupation of these houses because we must make it public. As soon as we find out exactly what the extent of the situation is, we will make it public. We will make sure that it is accessible to all. You will be able to see it, hon member.

  Engagement with provinces and municipalities in the selection of
               beneficiaries for new housing projects

1. Mr R J Tau (ANC) asked the Minister of Human Settlements: Whether his department engages provinces and municipalities in establishing a strategic mechanism to strike a balance between informal settlement dwellers and backyard dwellers in the selection of beneficiaries for the new housing projects; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? CO95E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, as part of the human settlement strategy we urge provinces and municipalities to ensure that when they do housing allocation for new projects they should also take into account the people who live in informal settlements and the backyard dwellers. That would help them not to allocate houses to people who are in informal settlements only and ignore the backyard dwellers. If they did so, it would mean they were telling people that they must go and occupy land before they are given a house.

So, as we are getting on with the N2 gateway project, which is the pilot project, there are 70% of people who are already staying there, and 30% will be allocated to the backyard dwellers. This would help those people to benefit from projects that government is giving to our people so that we don’t have a separate system.

We encourage provinces - and this is just a policy now that we are still piloting - to have this kind of mind-set so that all the new projects benefit both the backyard dwellers and those who are in the informal settlements. Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, I would like to recap what the Deputy Minister has said. She said that the balance of the housing will be as follows: 30% to the backyard dwellers and 70% to the informal settlements. This is what I find a little bit disconcerting because in the past there weren’t as many informal settlements as there are now, and people who lived in other people’s backyards were always there and waiting patiently for housing. They have been on the housing list for a long time.

The housing list goal post has been moved repeatedly, like they are doing now with a new list. So, I am a little bit worried that the people in the backyards are being neglected. And the fact that the Minister is worried about the informal settlements coming in and that they have to first invade land before they get attention is exactly what is being encouraged here with this 70% and 30%.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, I think the hon member should realise that it is important that she understands what I am saying. I am saying that even the 70:30 ratio is not a policy, but we are mooting something to that effect. I would agree with you because we would have preferred that the allocation is 50:50 and not 70:30. I definitely would have liked that kind of situation. At present, the municipalities in terms of their criteria don’t even have the 70:30 ratio.

So, the whole thing is still under discussion, and the government is urging municipalities to make sure, as they allocate new projects, that even the backyard dwellers benefit from these projects, as was the case earlier on with the project linked subsidy, where we removed the link in order to allow flexibility for the backyard dwellers.

Government is doing its best to accommodate backyard dwellers. At the moment we need buy-in from municipalities and provinces. We are doing our best as government, but we need the partnership of the three spheres so that we all speak with one voice on this matter, but I agree with the hon members.

Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, there is another problem in that you give a person a house but then after a week you see another umkhukhu [shack] next door to that house. How are you going to deal with the problem of being under the impression that you have given a person a house, and the next thing there is an umkhukhu [shack] next door?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, that is what we are talking about. We are saying that people must have ownership of the property that we give to them. It is important that the tenants should be proud of the little that government does, so that we don’t make squatter camps out of the very same houses that we provide for the people. That definitely needs partnership in communities. It needs strict monitoring in terms of street committees. It needs NGOs, Cope and them, to do their jobs because there is no way that they can pass the buck to government.

It is our responsibility as communities to see to that. The eyes and ears of government are the people on the ground. We as the ANC government are providing our people. However, let us please hold hands together and make our people own these processes so that they can also be proud of it, and when they see somebody putting an umkhukhu [shack] there they must go and demolish it. Government cannot monitor all such actions; it is the committees that should monitor that.

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, we are actually sitting with a very difficult situation and have complete sympathy with what the Minister is saying. In Coega, the agreement is that the title deed states that one is not allowed to sell the house within a period of nine years or to have any temporary shelter erected on ones premises.

The problem is then that the duty of the municipalities is to make sure that their law enforcement agencies enforce those regulations. At the moment they don’t do that. So, it remains an official thing and not of the communities, because the communities are actually overburdened and the current climatic conditions are contributing to it.

Furthermore, we are sitting with all these backyard dwellers and they are a health problem. So, officials must do their jobs.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, I agree with the hon member that officials must do their jobs, but who is doing the monitoring? We must monitor the municipalities and make the authorities work. It is not the municipalities’ issue, it is ours as Members of Parliament and as members of communities.

It is also not a question of saying that after a period of nine years you may sell the house. We say you must give that house back to government, so that government can give it to another person. Because if we say sell the house and end there, then the whole backlog is not going to be addressed.

If people have enough after eight or nine years, the first buyer should be government so that at the end of the day we put the next person on the list into that house. In fact, we want to do away with the sale of houses so that, at the end of the day, if you want to sell the house you don’t deserve to get money from government in any case.

Ours is to check the selling of houses. We are busy investigating that, and we are going to blacklist anybody who is defrauding government, whether you are a beneficiary or a contractor. Whoever defrauds government, the committees must know who those people are. Thank you.

The DEPUY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, may I please address you? Most of us in the executive are having problems with the time. Some of us have booked flights and have tried to change them but were not successful in getting later flights.

As a result of our executive commitments we were wondering whether we could approach the Chair and humbly request that those questions still remaining stand over or, alternatively, that we provide written replies to those questions.

Either of the two that suits the hon Chair as well as the House would be acceptable to us. So, we would like to make an application of that nature. It’s not only myself who is affected by this, it’s several of us. We do understand that it is as a result of the fact that the Deputy President’s questions had to be brought in today. Our calculations were based on the normal three hours, and it is well beyond that, Chairperson. Thank you.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, all it needs is for us in the House to agree and have consensus on the matter. I think we have to consider what the Deputy Minister had said - that we had a longer session with the Deputy President and, of course, this day was initially for them as a cluster.

Mr T HARRIS: Chairperson, from the position of the Western Cape, I would like to support the Deputy Minister in his proposal and suggest that the questions go for written reply.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Okay, that concludes the questions.

See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.

 WEEK OF 21 TO 25 SEPTEMBER 2009 TO FORM PART OF CONSTITUENCY PERIOD

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Thank you very much, Chairperson and hon members. At least the Deputy Ministers and the Ministers who are here can see that in the NCOP we don’t vote, we just reach consensus. [Laughter.]

Chairperson, I wish to move:

That the Council resolves that the week of 21-25 September 2009 forms
part of the constituency period and Members of the National Council of
Provinces be allowed to undertake their constituency work until 2
October 2009, as resolved by the Joint Programming Committee on 28 May
2009.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Hon members, since there is no speaker’s list on this particular subject, I shall now put the question. The question is that the motion be agreed to. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all permanent delegates and leaders of provincial delegations are in the House. Are all the delegation heads present?

HON MEMBERS: Yes.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province.

Delegation heads must please insert their cards before I call the vote. Please press button number one to confirm your presence. Have you inserted your cards in the first place? Those whose cards are not functioning, can you raise your hands so that the procedural staff can assist you with doing it manually? If your card is not functioning just raise your hand so that you get assistance with manual voting. As I call each province, please press the button that is relevant to your confirmation, abstinence or rejection. Have all provinces voted? If anyone has not done so can you raise your hand? I can see that we all confirm that we have voted. I will, therefore, declare the voting closed and request the procedural staff to assist me with the results.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, Kwazulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, Western Cape.

ABSTAIN: North West.

Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

SUSPENSION OF RULE 239(1) IN RESPECT OF TAXATION LAWS AMENDMENT BILL AND TAXATION LAWS SECOND AMENDMENT BILL

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I move:

That Rule 239(1), which provides inter alia that the consideration of  a
Bill may not commence before at least three working  days  have  elapsed
since the committee’s report was tabled, be suspended for  the  purposes
of consideration of the Taxation Laws  Amendment  Bill  [B  10  –  2009]
(National Assembly – sec 77) and the Taxation Laws Second Amendment Bill
[B 11 – 2009] (National Assembly – sec 75)  on  Thursday,  17  September
2009.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Order! I shall now put the question in respect of the motion. The question is that the motion be agreed to. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their province’s votes.

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces an opportunity to make their declarations of vote, if they so wish.

We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please insert their cards.

Before I call the vote, please press button number one to confirm your presence. There should be a light flashing. If not, the Chamber staff will assist you.

We now come to the voting. When I call the name of the province the delegation heads will vote by pressing button number four for those who vote in favour, button number two for those who vote against, and button number three for those who abstain.

The delegation heads know by now how the system works. I don’t need to remind them to press button four to confirm, and so forth. We all understand now.

I now call upon the provinces: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu- Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

Have all the provinces voted? In case there is any member who has mistakenly pressed the incorrect button, he or she is given an opportunity to press the correct button.

Hon members, provinces have voted in favour. I therefore declare the motion agreed to in terms of section 65 of the Constitution.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                    TAXATION LAWS AMENDMENT BILL

                 TAXATION LAWS SECOND AMENDMENT BILL

            (Consideration of Bills and Reports thereon)

Mr C J DE BEER: Hon Chairperson, hon members, thank you for this opportunity. Our Constitution forms a sound basis for the way we must conduct government business and must account to our people - a Constitution that has been built over 15 years to improve the lives of our people. As legislators we, at all times and on an ongoing basis, review current and past legislation to improve the lives of our people, specifically our poor people. We must at all times act in the interests of our people, and we have to reduce the divide between the rich and the poor and socioeconomic inequalities.

I present the report of the Select Committee on Finance and Appropriations with regard to the proposed changes contained in the Taxation Laws Amendment Bills, 2009. The objective of the 2009 Taxation Laws Amendment Bills is to give expression and meaning to the tax measures and other aspects of the fiscal framework meant to provide and consolidate the strong base for our economy to remain resilient in the current global financial downturn. The Bill is therefore in line with the objectives of streamlining fragmented taxation laws inherited pre-1994.

The Bill seeks to enhance and protect the competitive edge of the South African economy in the global economic environment and to reduce leakages in the system; to maximise revenue collection locally and internationally from companies and individuals trading or doing business with South Africa; and to fast-track economic integration and stimulate growth.

In deliberating on the Bill the select committee considered the following challenges: how the proposed amendments will improve or benefit the lives of ordinary people, our citizens; the impact of the current global financial downturn and its impact on job creation or job losses; the implications and impact of revenue deficit under collections; and the overall implications of all these challenges in terms of the priorities of government.

The Select Committee on Finance and Appropriations did not have time to conduct public hearings as we received a briefing by Treasury on 16 September 2009, and I had to report to this House on 17 September 2009. I am of the view that we must hear the voice of our ordinary people and small business, and Parliament and the select committee must devise means and mechanisms to make this matter and other related issues more interesting to society as a whole.

The select committee is of the view that the overall thrust of the proposed amendments does complement the stimulus package government has put forward in response to the national framework agreement. We must also commend the pre-emptive and proactive steps the former Minister of Finance, hon Trevor Manuel, took in February 2009 when he made personal income tax adjustments that resulted in R13,5 billion tax relief for individuals.

Most importantly, the new treatment of lump sum withdrawals of retirement savings must not serve as a perverse incentive for workers to withdraw their much-needed retirement savings for the future. The draft Bill will also play a serious and mitigating role in the short term to assist families in rearranging their lives.

It is also the responsibility of all role-players to act in a manner that suggests that we are all appreciative of these challenges. We call on employers not to go the easy way and resort to retrenchments. Throwing workers out on the street will not solve all company problems. You actually create a social problem. For example, employers can have shorter working weeks and have shorter shifts and look into cost-cutting initiatives other than retrenchments.

With regard to the film industry, we agree that further consultation is needed. We then recommend to this House that the proposed Taxation Laws Amendment Bill of 2009 be supported by the House. I thank you.

Debate concluded.

Taxation Laws Amendment Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Taxation Laws Second Amendment Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

      POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY MR A WATSON ON 16 SEPTEMBER 2009
                              (Ruling)

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Order! Hon members will remember that yesterday I promised I was going to give a ruling on a matter that was raised yesterday. Therefore I wish to present the following ruling. I would like to bring to the attention of members the allegation that was made by Mr Watson against the hon Gamede during our plenary. The hon member asked that a ruling be made on the statement that was made by the hon Gamede.

Members will recall that I indicated that since I did not hear what the statement was about, I would peruse Hansard and make a ruling. After perusal of the Hansard records, I couldn’t find any statement by the hon Gamede. However, I would like to request that members desist from engaging in discussions during debates not related to the subject matter of the debate as this makes it very difficult for the presiding officer to give a ruling on matters that he or she cannot hear. So, please, that is the ruling – that we desist from doing that.

The Council adjourned at 17:35. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Bills passed by Houses – to be submitted to President for assent

(1)    Bills passed by National Council of Provinces on 17 September
     2009:


      a) Taxation Laws Amendment Bill [B 10 – 2009] (National Assembly
         – sec 77).


      b) Taxation  Laws Second Amendment Bill [B 11 – 2009] (National
         Assembly – sec 75).

1. Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)

(1)    The JTM in terms of Joint Rule 160(6) classified the following
     Bill as a section 75 Bill:

      a) Local Government: Municipal Property Rates Amendment Bill [B
         12 – 2009] (National Assembly – sec 75)

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development a) Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region of the People’s Republic of China concerning Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.

 (b)    Explanatory Memorandum to the Agreement between the Government
      of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Hong
      Kong Special Administrative Region of the People’s Republic of
      China concerning Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters


   c) Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa
      and the Government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region
      of the People’s Republic of China concerning Surrender of
      Fugitive Offenders, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the
      Constitution, 1996.


   d) Explanatory Memorandum to the Agreement between the Government of
      the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Hong Kong
      Special Administrative Region of the People’s Republic of China
      concerning Surrender of Fugitive Offenders.


   e) Report on the upliftment of the provisional suspension of a
      magistrate: Ms A Bacharam, an additional magistrate at
      Scottburgh.


   f) Report on the provisional suspension of a magistrate: Mrs N E
      Ndamase, an additional magistrate at Pretoria in terms of section
      13(3)(c) of the Magistrates Act, 1993 (Act No 90 of 1993).


   g) Report on the provisional suspension of a magistrate: Mr C M
      Dumani, a magistrate at Graaff Reinet in terms of section
      13(3)(c) of the Magistrates Act, 1993 (Act No 90 of 1993).


   h) Proclamation No R.50 published in Government Gazette No 32494
      dated 14 August 2009: Commencement of sections 8 to 10 of the
      Judicial Matters Second Amendment Act, 2003 (Act No 55 of 2003).


   i) Government Notice No R.841 published in Government Gazette No
      32494 dated 14 August 2009: Scale of fees payable in respect of
      matters referred to in section 80 of the Attorneys Act, 1979 (Act
      No 53 of 1079).

1. The Minister of Human Settlements

(a)     Report and Financial Statements of the Servcon Housing
    Solutions (Proprietary) Limited for 2008-2009, including the Report
    of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and
    Performance Information for 2008-2009.

1. The Minister of Public Enterprises

(a)     Report and Financial Statements of the Alexkor Limited for 2008-
    2009, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the
    Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2008-2009.

1. The Minister of Rural Development and Land Reform (a) Report and Financial Statements of Vote 27 – Department of Land Affairs for 2008-2009, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information of Vote 27 for 2008-2009.

2. The Minister of Communications

(a)     Report and Financial Statements of the National Electronic
    Media Institute of South Africa (NEMISA) for 2008-2009, including
    the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
    Performance Information for 2008-2009.