WEDNESDAY, 25 AUGUST 2010

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                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

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The House met at 15:05.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

                      QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY

                              ECONOMICS
                              Cluster 4

MINISTERS:

           Main obstacles to economic integration of SADC

136. Mr B A Radebe (ANC) asked the Minister of Trade and Industry:
  What are the main obstacles that he has identified to the economic
  integration of the Southern African Development Community?
                              NO2658E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Mrs T V Tobias-Pakolo): Hon Speaker and hon Bheki Radebe, South Africa has and continues to promote deepening regional integration in Southern Africa as an essential component of our wider international economic relations.

Our approach is founded on two arguments. Firstly, South Africa’s stability, security and economic development cannot be assured if the region continues to confront underdevelopment, instability, poverty and also marginalisation.

Secondly, regional economic co-operation and integration offered an opportunity for regional industries to overcome the limits of small national markets and will achieve economies of scale and enhance competitiveness as a platform to participate in the global economy. We do need to acknowledge advances that have been achieved in the integration agenda.

In 2008, under the Southern African Development Community, Trade Protocol, SADC achieved the status of a Free Trade Area wherein 80% of goods are traded freely in the region. We are also continuing to work on the rules of origin, regional standards and trade facilitation that could consolidate the gains made in opening our regional trade.

However, in our view, the single most serious constraint to a more equitable and balanced flow of trade in the region remains underdeveloped production structures across SADC economies. In this context, South Africa has and will continue to advance a work programme which focuses on regional industrialisation and economic diversification.

Regional industrial policies that expand and diversify value-added production are necessary prerequisites to ensure that SADC countries are able to take advantage of market openings at the regional level. I thank you.

Mr B A RADEBE: Thank you, Comrade Deputy Minister, for elaborating when answering the question.

You have indicated that 80% of the goods flow freely within the SADC area, but as a country, we know that there are lots of subsidised goods which are dumped in the SADC countries. There are also lots of pirated goods which are dumped in the SADC countries. At the end of the day this undermines the growth of our SADC economy.

Is the department, or the countries involved in SADC, doing anything about this, like, for example, training the border officers so that they are able to screen for the goods which are dumped in the SADC region?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Mrs T V Tobias-Pakolo): Speaker, I would like to thank the hon member very much for the supplementary question.

Indeed, we have continued to experience challenges around subsidised goods, not only on the continent, but all over the world. Hence, we are dealing with the rules of origin.

But, in relation to pirated and counterfeit products, the Department of Trade and Industry is going to launch an antipiracy campaign next month and we are going to work with the Department of Home Affairs to engage the South African Revenue Service, component of the Department of Finance, to ensure that there is border control over goods that get to our markets via our borders. A programme will be launched in September and all Members of Parliament will be informed about it. I thank you.

Mr S J F MARAIS: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Deputy Minister, you mentioned the decisions around SADC as a Free Trade Area. How far along is the government with this, and when will you implement SADC as a Free Trade Area?

Together with that, can you tell us how government sees the role of the SADC tribunal in cross-border asset disputes within SADC, such as the current land claim dispute between Zimbabwe and South African agri- investors? I thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Mrs T V Tobias-Pako;o): Hon Speaker, the hon member has asked me three questions in one.

I will first attend to the issue of the Free Trade Area. I think we all know that the President was in Namibia recently, where the ministerial task force reported on the summit on the developments of regional integration. To us, regional integration cannot be imperative. Before we deal with issues of industrialisation, before we can even look at issues of the tribunal, it is very important for South Africa to concentrate on building strong regional industries. I think issues of the tribunal will be addressed as and when the report has been tabled.

On the issues of Zimbabwe, I think the President gave an adequate report of what was discussed at the summit. I thank you.

Ms C M P KOTSI: Thank you, Speaker. Hon Deputy Minister, you have mentioned how the free trade is going to take place. I want to raise the fact that there are two bodies, the Southern African Customs Union, and also SADC, running the economy. In terms of harmonisation and integration, how does Sacu affect SADC as a whole? How would that affect the work that needs to be done? We know that there are countries who signed the Electronic Passport, ePass, with other countries. How does that integration affect that relationship? I thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Mrs T V Tobias-Pakolo): Thank you, Speaker. Hon Kotsi, you have has raised a very important question about how the ePass is affecting our regional economies. As you are aware, South Africa has not signed this ePass. As a member of SADC, it is very important for us to discuss industrial harmonisation. Hence the engagement continues, in order for us to help the poorer countries to industrialise, so as to avoid the situation where there is an over dependency on our markets. There are frequent engagements on the matter.

At the last meeting Lesotho acceded that it is very important for us to hold back on the issues of the ePass until we, as SADC countries, have agreed on the matter.

We will engage the Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa, Comesa, for instance, in order to have the entire continent, not only the region, harmonising its trade. I thank you.

Mr A P VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you, Speaker. Hon Deputy Minister, you have now dealt with the obstacles to the economic integration of SADC. If we understand the obstacles so well, why has South Africa’s role in driving the previously much-acclaimed New Partnership for Africa’s Development, Nepad – which is another initiative of regional integration – lost so much steam over the last two years? I thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Mrs T V Tobias-Pakolo): Hon Speaker, this is a normative statement; it’s not based on facts. We have not yet lost steam. South Africa is keen on engagements. Hence, the Minister of Trade and Industry has been engaging individual countries to try and solve this matter. I thank you.

Effect of job losses on department’s position regarding intended wage
                               subsidy

111. Mr A Louw (DA) asked the Minister of Labour:


   Whether the impact of job losses, especially amongst the youth, has
   had any effect on his department’s position on the intended wage
   subsidy mentioned by the Minister of Finance in his February 2010
   Budget Speech; if not, (a) why not and (b) what is the position in
   this regard; if so, what are the relevant details?
                         NO2631E

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Speaker, young people have been disproportionately affected by the global crisis that broke out in 2008. Its effect is so serious that, unless action is taken, the situation of youth unemployment can become untenable and put social cohesion at risk. In some circles this problem is often colloquially referred to as the greatest ticking time bomb.

According to the latest Quarterly Labour Force Survey, the country’s unemployment rate increased from 25,2% to 25,3% in the second quarter of

1. This means that about 4,31 million people are officially out of work. The situation is even more serious if one takes into account that some unemployed people have simply given up trying to find work, and are referred to as discouraged work seekers.

The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development’s inaugural economic survey of South Africa, which was released on 18 July 2010, indicates that the country has the worst rate of unemployment amongst youth between the ages of 15 and 24 when compared to all the countries surveyed. Racial disparities further compounded the matter, with 53,4% of all young black Africans between the ages of 15 and 24 being unemployed by the end of

1. This is three times worse than the unemployment rate of 14,5% for young white South Africans.

Young people who lack general or vocational education and work experience are especially vulnerable to the crisis, and many young people who are employed are overqualified for the jobs they perform.

As part of our intervention to alleviate youth unemployment, we introduced apprentice learnerships and internship allowances as a means of subsidising learners while they undergo training under the Basic Conditions of Employment Act. The employers also received tax allowances under the Income Tax Act administered by Sars. People who participated in the training of unemployed people also received a daily allowance. These allowances have since been transferred to the Department of Higher Education and Training with the Skills Development Act functions.

To the last question, my answer is no, because the tax system falls under Treasury, not under the Department of Labour. Thank you.

Mr I M OLLIS: Speaker, I would like to thank the Minister very much for his words of encouragement for the youth.

However, the ANC’s youth wage subsidy seems to be a lot of talk and not a lot of action. We are concerned about that action. When are we going to take action and make that subsidy available? And how much will that subsidy be per person?

Almost one million people have lost their jobs, and many of those are young people. The ANC seems to have given them false hope with this scheme. Only a few thousand people were retrained under the Training Lay-off Scheme, and only a few were employed for very short periods of time under the Expanded Public Works Programme. We believe the ANC has failed the youth of South Africa in this way. They have been waiting since February when we heard about it in the Budget Speech. When are we going to have that and how much will it be per person? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Speaker, I hope, wish and pray that the Minister of Finance, who presented the Budget in February, when he next does so, on page 48 of his Budget Review, will write “the ANC”, because I’m trying to see where the ANC’s name appears. I thought this was a way of incorporating anybody. I’m sure you understand where the ANC stands about the number of things, including myself as a member of the SACP.

Let me read to the hon member what the Minister of Finance – not the Minister of Labour – said this year:

The tax system can be used to encourage employment. The progressive structure of personal income tax and taxable allowances of up to R30 000 at the start and completion of learnerships, already provides incentives that support job creation.

And this is on page 48 of the Budget Review 2010. You asked how much. It is stated here. [Applause.]

Mr N SINGH: Speaker, I would like to thank the hon Minister for the answer.

I think there were some alarming statistics revealed, hon Minister, with regard to the rate of unemployment, especially amongst the youth.

What I would like to know is if the Minister of Labour believes that the measures that are being put in place to ameliorate the parlous position that the youth find themselves in, will achieve positive results in the near future. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Speaker, I’m happy that the hon member asked me that question because it is like asking me whether I have hopes of going to heaven. My answer will be yes, because I must peddle hope all the time, my brother! There is no way that I can say they will not bring about positive results. Certainly, there will be positive results! [Applause.]

Mr D A KGANARE: Thank you, Speaker. Hon Minister, the problem of unemployment is also exacerbated by employers who are very ruthless in the manner in which they employ and exploit illegal immigrants. If you consider restaurants, you will find that a lot of illegal immigrants have been employed by the restaurant owners, who pay them peanuts. As a result, that also contributes to the problems of this country. In this instance, the culprits are really the employers. So, what I would like to know is what your inspectors are doing to try to get rid of these ruthless employers.

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Speaker, the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, on page 7, the Bill of Rights, section 9, states that everyone is equal before the law and has the right to equal protection and benefit of the law.

If you look on page 10, section 23 at the section that deals with labour rights – which I drafted with hon Mbhazima when he was still a member of the ANC – you will find that it states that everyone has a right to fair labour practices. Every worker has a right to form and join a trade union.

Therefore, I agree with you that employers who treat those who come from other countries in the manner you have described, are wrong and are violating the Constitution. All that we can do with such employers is to throw the rule books at them. We prosecute them and there is nothing else that we can do. We have to do so because they are promoting xenophobic tendencies and that must not be allowed. [Applause.]

Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Thank you, Speaker. Minister, following your response, we all understand the problem regarding youth unemployment. The Budget book has, in fact, stated all the obvious.

The question I want to ask concerns the work that has been done before by the Department of Public Works. The department tried to capture data in respect of all youth unemployment with a view to, as a holding arrangement, putting the unemployed youth into the department to create jobs and skills.

The question is how many of those youth, whose data has been captured by the Department of Public Works before, have already been processed in terms of their skills and reskilling processing?

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Speaker, I doubt whether the Minister of Public Works is sitting here. I will ask him as soon as we finish here as to how many he has captured, then I will come back and answer the hon member.

Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Speaker, on a point of order: Is it appropriate that the hon Minister of Labour ducks behind the Constitution, the Minister of Public Works, heaven and somebody else – the Minister of Finance – in order to answer his question? Wouldn’t it be more appropriate, sir, if, in actual fact, he answered the question himself in his own words, rather than appealing to all these other people to assist him?

The SPEAKER: I don’t know what that point is, hon member, but it is certainly not a point of order.

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Speaker, on a point of order: The hon Minister has said that he is going to heaven, but does he know that they don’t allow communists there? [Laughter.]

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Speaker, all I know is that communists are allowed in heaven because they are believers. Only atheists are not allowed in heaven. [Applause.]

The SPEAKER: On that happy note, with all of you going to heaven…

An HON MEMBER: They don’t want to go!

The SPEAKER: We move on. I have on my list that the next department will be Trade and Industry. Apologies, hon Minister, you will still go to heaven. Question 139 has been asked by hon Radebe to the Minister of Trade and Industry, and the question will be responded to by the hon Deputy Minister.

Positive outcomes for our economy of Global Business Forum DURING THE WORLD CUP

1. Mr B A Radebe (ANC) asked the Minister of Trade and Industry: What were the positive outcomes for our economy of the Global Business Forum that was held during the 2010 Fifa World Cup Soccer tournament? NO2661E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Mrs T V Tobias-Pakolo): Hon Speaker, since 1995 the Global Business Forum has convened the heads of global business, chairmen, presidents and chief executive officers of the world’s largest companies to engage on the dynamic frontiers of international commerce.

From 26 to 28 June 2010, at a time when the eyes of the globe were on South Africa for its historic moment in the world of sport, the Global Forum gathered global leaders in Cape Town to focus on substantive issues and opportunities in the developing world.

It was the first time the Global Forum – which was started by Fortune – was hosted in Africa, and it was also the first time it was cohosted by Time and CNN. For Cape Town, the experience was enhanced by including Time 100 honourees, the world’s most influential people from the highest ranks of government, science and technology, business, sports, media, entertainment and nongovernmental organisations. Their participation yielded rich insights into the broader interdisciplinary context in which today’s global companies are operating.

This year’s event was opened by the South African President, Jacob Zuma, who addressed the forum live via satellite from the G20 summit in Toronto. It attracted very high profile participants such as former United States President Bill Clinton, Irish President Mary Robinson, social activist Graça Machel and CBS Evening News anchor Katie Couric, as well as a range of influential businesspeople, including DuPont chief executive officer, Ellen J Kullman; Jim Walton, president of CNN Worldwide; Enrique Salem, president and chief executive officer of Symantec; Royal Dutch Shell chief executive officer, Peter Voser; Sports Illustrated group editor, Terry McDonell; and Fortune managing editor, Andy Serwer. Archbishop Desmond Tutu closed the historic event by offering a benediction and issuing a challenge to participants to look at driving growth and investment in Africa and the developing world.

This event was unique in that it was the main event taking place in South Africa as opposed to being a regional breakaway, and allowed some of the world’s most influential business decision-makers to visit the country for the first time and see the opportunities that South Africa and the continent offer. It also offered unprecedented and intimate networking with South Africa’s top business luminaries including intimate dinners in the private homes of South Africa’s most distinguished citizens. The event received focus coverage by Time and so on, as well as the international media.

With the Minister of Trade and Industry undertaking more than five interviews in a two-hour session … [Time expired.]

Mr B A RADEBE: Hon Speaker and Deputy Minister, I think we have to acknowledge that the business forum was one the most successful ever held in the world, and this gave an opportunity to the South African business leaders and those of the largest companies in the world to network. Is the department considering the creation of a formal and permanent relationship between the stakeholders so that things like these annual events can be diarised so as to expose Africa forever to these people? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Mrs T V Tobias-Pakolo): Speaker, it is actually the role of government to ensure that such investment business meetings occur annually. Based on the availability of a budget – and I am looking at the Minister of Finance – I hope that when we speak to him, he will allow us to host this event annually. I thank you.

The SPEAKER: I have on my list the following speakers: hon M E Mbili, followed by hon A P van der Wes and the last question goes to hon C M P Kotsi, in that order. Hon Mbili? He probably raised his hand and disappeared before the answer was given. We go to the next speaker on my list, the hon A P van der Wes.

Mr A P VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Speaker and hon Deputy Minister, the theme of this conference was “The New Global Opportunity”, and it focused on the challenge for governments to create opportunities for economic growth and activity. Yet it seems that some regions in South Africa offer more opportunities for entrepreneurs than others. Why is it that a region such as the Western Cape has recovered faster from the recession than all other provinces? As you know, employment figures for the Western Cape have been growing while those of all other regions have been shrinking during the first half of this year. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Mrs T V Tobias-Pakolo): Hon Speaker, the hon member is … [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order, hon members!

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Mrs T V Tobias-Pakolo): … asking me a common sense question. The regions in the country are not equally benefiting from the economy of the country because of development. If we narrow demand, the Western Cape attracts more tourists than any other destination in South Africa …

An HON MEMBER: Why?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Mrs T V Tobias-Pakolo): … because of the natural resources we possess in the Western Cape … [Interjections.] … which we don’t have in the Free State, for instance. So, it is a given. It is not because of the DA-led government that you are doing something unique; it is by coincidence that you happen to lead it.

But, South Africa’s got the potential in all regions to attract more investments. We are working on that as government, hence the Industrial Policy Action Plan, Ipap 2, is very clear on our strategic approach. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

The SPEAKER: We thank the hon Deputy Minister. The previous speaker was hon Van der Westhuizen and not Van der Wes. His name was cut off from my screen. I extend my apologies.

Ms C M P KOTSI: Thank you, Speaker. Hon Deputy Minister, what long-term investment from the manufacturing sector is likely to result from this gathering, and has any approach been made to the government by any of the investors in this regard? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Mrs T V Tobias-Pakolo): Thank you, Speaker. Hon member, I think our Ipap 2 document elaborates on our manufacturing strategy, especially our approach in the automobile sector. Part of what we will do as a priority is to ensure that our textiles and clothing are maximised, and we will attract more investment by going on business delegations and requesting foreign direct investment in these particular sectors. So, this is work in progress. I want to urge the hon member to give us an opportunity to work on this programme and to evaluate us at a later stage. I thank you.

 Contribution of transport to successful 2010 Fifa World Cup soccer
                             tournament

1. Mr N E Gcwabaza (ANC) asked the Minister of Transport:

   Whether he has made an assessment of the contribution of transport to
   the successful hosting of the 2010 Fifa World Cup Soccer tournament;
   if not, why not; if so, what lessons has he drawn from his
   assessment?                                 NO2666E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Thank you, hon Speaker. The full assessment of the role that transport played in the wonderful success of hosting the 2010 World Cup is a process which we are still completing. As we speak today, there is a workshop, debriefing session, of the Department of Transport, relevant agencies and all of the host cities which will result in a comprehensive assessment. Of course, the assessment has been ongoing, and was ongoing in the course of the hosting of the event itself.

First and foremost, I think the basic thing to say is that, despite a great deal of scepticism before the hosting of the 2010 Fifa World Cup, transport really came to the party. I think it contributed very actively to the tremendous success of the 2010 Fifa World Cup.

We are using the World Cup as a catalyst and have refurbished and produced new stations: King Shaka, Moses Mabhida, Century City here in Cape Town, Doornfontein and many others.

Our airports are looking fantastic, particularly the big airports. OR Tambo International Airport had a major refurbishment, Cape Town International Airport as well and, of course, there is the brand new King Shaka airport.

Gautrain - the very first leg of Gautrain between Sandton and the airport – is proving to be hugely popular and a great success. We look forward to the completion of the other legs.

I think what is also very important is to say that the success was possible because the state, in all three spheres, led the process, but success would not have been possible without also the co-operation of our partners in the private sector.

I would like also to take the opportunity to salute the role of the SA Bus Owners Association, Saboua, which played a great role in assisting us and worked very closely with government. Also, the minibus sector – we often blame the minibus sector, sometimes with good reason, but I think they also came to the party. Hopefully they made a lot of money out of the process, but they also co-operated very effectively with us.

The BRT, Bus Rapid Transit, system’s Rea Vaya proved its worth in the course of hosting the event in Johannesburg. The very first beginnings of a BRT system here in Cape Town, with MyCiTi, has also begun to be rolled out. There is the Gauteng Freeway Project and many other things.

Transport is not just about vehicles, it is also about mobility and access. I think one of the wonderful things that happened during the World Cup was that people discovered their cities and the possibility of using public space democratically, nonracially, deracialising our public spaces and just walking in our cities. For instance, the Cape Town Fan Walk was one of the great successes of 2010, because people moved about their city. We also need to regard that as part of transport.

Perhaps that is the real achievement. We need to ask not just what transport contributed to the World Cup, but what the World Cup contributed to transport. I think the big thing has been a change in attitude. We are seeing members of the public who are not used to or have never used public transport beginning to discover the realities, possibilities and the democratic pleasure of travelling with a variety of South Africans in a common form of transport.

These are some of the fantastic gains: the contribution that transport made to hosting 2010, but also some of the things that hosting it has contributed to transport, going forward in South Africa.

Mr N E GCWABAZA: Thank you, Speaker, thank you, hon Deputy Minister. Can the Minister confirm that the lessons drawn from the successes of transport in contributing successfully to the World Cup are also going to contribute to the implementation of the National Transport Master Plan, Natplan, 2050, going forward?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Speaker, NatMap is the National Transport Master Plan. It consists of research with comprehensive data about traffic flows and so on. It’s not really a programme for the transformation of transport and public transport. It’s an information base. It has not yet gone through Cabinet, nor has it in particular gone through the Department of Transport.

The lessons drawn from the World Cup are certainly the lessons that we will actively apply, because this great spirit and approval and public support for public transport will wither unless we use the momentum that we’ve now built in the course of the World Cup to really begin, for instance, to implement effective public transport, but also to change, deracialise and democratise our public spaces, our towns and cities.

It is not just the Department of Transport, but government and all spheres of government that need to draw lessons and really move forward. Otherwise, what was good about the 2010 hosting will be forgotten and we will fall back into our old cynicism and our old separate ways. Perhaps the key lesson was the importance of the municipal sphere. One of the big challenges of this World Cup - unlike other World Cups – was that we had nine host cities. Fifa was very sceptical about our ability to host in nine separate cities and to move fans across quite a large country.

I think that the key contribution of cities – all of the nine host cities – to planning, regulating and implementing effective public transport is an important lesson. So, appropriate devolution is a very important component of providing and maintaining decent public transport. That is a big lesson that we have learnt.

The SPEAKER: We thank the hon Deputy Minister. I have a long list here, but I will only take three more speakers. These are hon B E E Molewa, followed by hon S B Farrow and the last speaker would be hon Lucas, in that order.

Hon Molewa. We seem to have lost the hon Molewa. We’ll then move on to hon Farrow.

Mr S B FARROW: Thank you very much, Speaker. Nobody can doubt the contribution that transport made to the successful hosting of the 2010 Fifa World Cup. Over R13,6 billion was spent, excluding Gautrain, the airports and the Gauteng Freeway Projects.

If one lesson can be learnt, Deputy Minister, it has to be the isolated case of the unannounced and unplanned arrivals of aircraft at King Shaka on 7 July. My understanding of aircraft movements worldwide is that, prior to departure, a flight plan is lodged with the airport control tower that, in turn, then duly informs the destination or the airport of destination of the estimated time of arrival, and slots are given, etc.

How did this happen then; that unscheduled aircraft landed there and were given preference over scheduled aircraft, resulting in hundreds of fans not seeing their teams play? Do we know who is responsible for this mess-up, and will the department be conducting an investigation into it, to ensure that, if we are going to have future events like we had now, that this will not repeat itself?

Just as a matter of interest, have there been any claims from the fans in regard to the loss … [Time expired.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Speaker, I would like to thank hon Farrow. I was hoping that someone would ask this question. It is important that we don’t just look at the good things, but also take note of some of the challenges that we had in the course of hosting the World Cup.

Yes, indeed the problems at King Shaka International Airport were caused not by unscheduled or nonscheduled flights that didn’t have flight plans, but by a backlog that built up as a result of the semifinal being held here, the evening before, in Cape Town. A whole host of VIP jets – basically business-type jets – left Cape Town International Airport late, and therefore arrived late at the other end, at King Shaka Airport. This thing caused a problematic knock-on effect.

Basically, as the hon member correctly says, schedules or flight times were allocated to these aircraft, but the VIPs involved failed to pitch up in time and flights were delayed by a matter of an hour, two hours and so forth. I think that the Air Traffic Navigation Services, ATNS, Airports Company SA, ACSA, and the responsible authorities were faced with a predicament: They could block those VIPs - some of them from Fifa, for instance – from flying and attending, but that would have created an international scandal, in that it would seem that we were not able to provide transport to them.

We had hoped that we could then still be able to slot in these scheduled aircraft – SAA, SA Airways, and others – flying from, for instance, Johannesburg into the airport.

This problem was then compounded by the fact that, apart from leaving late and therefore causing a backlog, there was also a defiance of instructions from the airport to move the aircraft from King Shaka to the old Durban International Airport. There was basically defiance in some cases.

Then there were attempts to shift some of those aircraft off onto another section to create space in the airport, but the engineers advised us against doing that because some parts of the very extensive King Shaka International Airport have reinforced concrete that had not yet settled. It apparently needs some six months.

So what we were using was fine, and had settled over a six months’, or whatever it was, period. There were other parts which potentially could have been used, but which might then have suffered structural damage if we had moved aircraft onto them.

Also, the final problem was that the SA Air Force had declared no-fly zones over the stadiums in the course of matches, and in the period preceding and following matches as well. Because of the backlog, it then became increasingly difficult to use King Shaka Airport. [Time expired.]

Mr E J LUCAS: Thank you, M Speaker. I must say, we all appreciate what was done and the service rendered for the 2010 Fifa World Cup. I think it has been highly appreciated. However, I must say that, after that, the transport system in Durban Metro has gone right back to where it was prior to the World Cup. And the question arises, when will the services be restored to the standard we experienced during the Fifa World Cup, so that all South Africans can benefit from it?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Well, I don’t expect to go to heaven and I certainly don’t want to go to heaven if the hon Van der Merwe is going to be there, but I certainly want … [Laughter.] … to struggle to create a heaven here on earth, and that would include eThekwini. I would agree with the hon member that the public transport situation in eThekwini, as in many of our cities, is far from ideal.

It is one thing to provide an event-based transport system that tests your system and tests your abilities. You learn many lessons from it, as I’ve been trying to say. But it’s another thing to make sure that ordinary South Africans from Monday to Friday, every week of the year, every month of the year, have decent public transport. We can’t say that of any of our cities. That becomes the big challenge. I think that we are well aware of it, and we need to make sure that we build on the momentum that we’ve got. So, you are absolutely right to be critical. Together, we all need to work to make sure that, from our different corners, we ensure that South Africans have the kind of accessibility and mobility that they deserve.

Mr D A KGANARE: Thank you, Speaker. Hon Deputy Minister, in terms of the broad principles of the 2010 Transport Action Plan, you have said that you will accelerate existing transport plans and maximise existing transport infrastructure; improve public transport and promote its use; integrate existing transport services and accelerate implementation of the government’s economic and sustainable development policies.

Having taken all these into consideration and acknowledging the success of the transport programme and the few logistical hitches in the air transport, can the Minister explain to this House how his department is going to integrate the Fifa transport programme to suit the needs of the South African general travellers?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Speaker, I would like to thank hon Kganare for reminding us of all the principles and also thank him for congratulating us. But I don’t think it’s the department that should be congratulated; I think all South Africans should be congratulated on the success of the 2010 Fifa World Cup, and therefore also on contributing, in one way or another, to supporting public transport systems, for instance. That’s very important.

How do we take it forward? Well, that’s exactly what we need to do. As I said earlier, one of the key things about much public transport, not all of it, but much public transport, is that it’s delivered, or not delivered, as the case might be, at the local level. Therefore, the integration of the different modes, the planning of public transport, the financing of public transport and the regulation of public transport need to be, as much as possible, located in one place.

That is something we as government are very actively pursuing in terms of, for instance, the National Land Transport Act, which envisages devolution, and also the very important Public Transport Infrastructure Systems Grant, which is a grant for cities. In the first place we were directing it largely towards the host cities.

So, I think those are the ways in which we hope to begin to transform - and we are beginning to transform public transport. It’s a long way to go. We can’t change public transport unless we also change the horrible apartheid space that we’ve still got in South Africa. We need to begin to change that, and transport is a lever to do that.

But, unless the Minister of Human Settlement begins to create deracialised cities; unless we begin to abolish dormitory townships and take work closer to people and people closer to work, public transport will always limp in South Africa.

So, it is a comprehensive effort that we require. We had a glimmer of what is possible during the 2010 Fifa World Cup, but now we need to really seriously implement all of these things. That requires all of us to work together to do that.

Particulars regarding (i) average salary and financial perks of Eskom’s executive committee members and (ii) salary increases for executive committee members and ordinary workers

1. Dr S M van Dyk (DA) asked the Minister of Public Enterprises:

   (1) What were (a) the average salary and (b) any other financial perks of members of Eskom’s executive committee in the 2009-10 financial year;

   (2) whether she has approved the approximately 83% salary increase which Eskom’s executive committee has negotiated for itself this year; if not, why not; if so, (a) what is the financial impact of this, (b) on what is the approval of the salary increase based and (c) what are the further relevant details;

   (3) whether Eskom offered its ordinary workers an 8,5% salary increase over the same period; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so,

   (4) whether she approved this; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? NO2654E

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Mr Speaker, a debate on executive remuneration is raging internationally and locally, and it is a very welcome debate.

It is well known that the Department of Public Enterprises has set up a remuneration panel to review the salaries of senior executives and the boards at the state-owned enterprises under our domain.

I am very happy to engage in this debate. But what I find disturbing in engaging in this debate, is when people do sloppy arithmetic, just look at figures and then throw things out into the public domain. I am referring to the allegation that was put out into the public domain that an 83% salary increase was enjoyed by senior executives last year. It was rectified by Eskom. Even the media published those corrections, but it still comes up in this House in the form of a question. I asked the questioner to please provide me with the basis of the calculation, and all the questioner could provide me with was a newspaper article which predates even the correction made by Eskom.

Let me assure this House that there is no consideration of an 83% increase for senior executives of Eskom for this year. That was the question that Dr Van Dyk asked me. Let me further assure the House that there was not an 83% increase for senior executives at Eskom.

Let me explain where the confusion arose. In the previous financial year, no Eskom manager received a performance bonus. No bonus was paid out; it was withheld. There were certain targets put for senior management to achieve. Senior management achieved that target in December, and their retrospective bonus was then paid out to them in relation to that target. Therefore, when the figures were reported in the annual financial statements, two performance bonuses were recorded for that one year: One was the retrospective one and the other was for this year. What happened was that commentators just seized those figures and used them to make their calculation of an 83% increase. In actual fact, when you correct this and allocate the bonuses to their proper years, etc, you will then be faced with an 18,35% increase.

All senior executives, as is common elsewhere in all big corporations, receive their remuneration on the basis of their salary, which includes pension, medical aid, etc, and on the basis of a performance bonus. So, you have to ask questions about how much the performance bonus has increased from the previous year as well as how much the salary has increased from the previous year. What tends to happen … [Time expired.]

Dr S M VAN DYK: Thank you, Speaker. Minister, we got the information from the media and the trade unions. So, what you are saying here in Parliament is that the media and the trade unions are lying to the public. Be that as it may, Minister, what are the financial perks, in terms of money, of the executive members of Eskom?

Given the fact that Eskom cannot satisfy the energy needs of South Africans and the fact that the taxpayer had to absorb a 25% increase in tariffs - as I got the information - how can a R7 million remuneration package to the executive members be justified? How can a huge increase of more than 60% to ordinary workers over the past four years – which is almost 40% higher than the consumer price index – be justified?

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Speaker, I really take exception to the notion that I am saying the media is lying. I am saying that sloppy arithmetic was done. Eskom then provided a rectification, which, Mr Van Dyk, the media carried. The media carried that rectification. If you did not pick it up or your researcher did not pick it up, don’t blame the media.

Secondly, you want to know the average salary and the packages. The average salary of members of Eskom’s executive in 2009-10 was R2 184 000, and includes that of executive committee members who were not employed for the full year. If the latter are excluded, then the average salary equals R2 821 000. An average of R1 001 000 was paid in performance bonuses to those executive committee members who served a full term, resulting in a total average remuneration package of R3 822 000. A total amount of R297 000 was paid in financial perks. Those financial perks refer to a vehicle-operating fleet card, security at R19 000 per annum, an annual membership of two professional institutes and a driver from the fleet pool. That is the full extent of the package to the executives.

Let me add that every Eskom employee gets a 13th salary cheque and a performance bonus. There is no Eskom employee who does not get a performance bonus. So, the notion that senior managers are the only people getting performance bonuses is completely misguided. As I have said before, the actual increase that was granted to the top senior executive committee members was 18,35%.

The unions negotiated, for this coming year, an increase of 9% together with the R1 500 housing allowance, bearing in mind that the R9 000 does not include the salary cheque or the performance bonus 13th cheque to which workers will be entitled. Now, I do … [Interjections.] [Time expired.]

Rev K R J MESHOE: Thank you, Speaker. Minister, for a number of years, Eskom has consistently performed poorly and lacks the foresight required to meet its obligations as an electricity supplier. They showed their best performance when they cried “unaffordable” when unions demanded a 9% salary increase. Yet the same Eskom executive committee that cried “unaffordable” to the unions gave themselves exorbitant salary increases during the past financial year. I heard what you said about the percentages, that is why I don’t mention percentages.

While we welcome the Minister’s announcement that the salaries of Eskom executives will be reviewed, what I want to know is whether the hon Minister will put a curb on the salary increases, perks, and performance bonuses that these executives give themselves and will also ensure that ordinary workers are paid well by Eskom.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Mr Speaker, can I request that the hon Meshoe provides me with what he considers to be exorbitant. This is because it is no good hiding behind adjectives without giving exact figures. I say this quite sincerely. There is a serious debate about what is an appropriate executive remuneration policy for senior executives in this country, both in the public and the private sector. We need to have that debate, but that debate is not helped by throwing slogans around in which you cannot justify the basis on which that was done.

When we talk about the performance of Eskom, let us bear in mind that it is this very same government that has apologised that it placed Eskom under undue stress by not allowing it to invest when it needed to invest in power. This resulted in the power shortages that we have experienced over the past time.

Let me also just say that, in this last year, Eskom received the following awards: the Golden Key Award for Public Body of the Year, awarded by the Human Rights Commission and the Open Democracy Advice Centre; the international DuPont Annual Safety Award; the Komosa Award, as an award for creating the greatest job opportunities; the Fossil Fuel Foundation Award; the Best Deal of 2009 Award by the Global Trade Review magazine; and the Most Ideal Employer in Engineering Award, which was a culmination of a student survey conducted at 23 South African universities, and more than 26 000 students took part and voted Eskom as the most ideal employer in the engineering field.

Let us stop harping on Eskom being this complete failure. Let us acknowledge where failure took place and where government caused the failure that actually chained Eskom’s hands. Let us look at what has happened since 2008. What kind of rolling blackouts have there been? There have not been any. They have been managed under extremely difficult circumstances. In the two years ahead there will still be shortages in the provision of power. So, let us start engaging in this debate in a sensible way without just throwing out pejorative statements about their performance. [Applause.]

Mr L S NGONYAMA: Thank you, hon Speaker. Hon Minister, the issue I have is a question about the principle of the rollover of the performance bonus. I find it a bit strange that, if officials don’t perform in year one, the bonus is carried over to year two. The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Speaker, let me explain that. What is not clearly understood is that executive remuneration gets determined in October and not at the beginning of the financial year. So, when you have your annual financial statements, they often reflect executive remuneration that spans two years – the previous year and the year thereafter. That is why the annual financial statement reflected it in that way, and that is where you had the addition of a previous dispensation added into the other year because it fell within that remuneration period.

The question was not that the executive did not perform, but that they wanted them to perform better. In fact, what they did achieve – which was a phenomenal achievement – was a R22 billion saving in operational costs. That actually provided them with the base to be able to provide the continuing energy provision for us in this last period of time. So, it was a significant achievement in that way.

But I do agree with you. I don’t think it’s an absolute ideal state to be separating these remunerations, but they just felt that they wanted to do proper performance management and to actually hold those people to account on the R22 billion.

Mr P VAN DALEN: Mr Speaker, is the Minister prepared to intervene to ensure that the top structure of Eskom does not pay themselves these excessive salaries? I will qualify excessive. I think excessive is three and four times more than what the President earns. I think that is excessive, taking into account that when government tries to rationalise these excessive payments, they say you can’t take all the fringe benefits into account. But when it comes to the normal person on the street, then all these things are worked in and get into a percentage that says “we are close to that”. We are fed up with that. Thank you, Minister.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Mr Speaker, I am losing my patience. Can I go and punch him? [Laughter.]

The SPEAKER: Yes, Minister, after the session. [Laughter.]

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Thank you. We will organise outside here and we will see who wins on this one. I am asking for reasonableness.

You talk about excessive. Mr Van Dalen; you earn a salary here. To what extent does that salary exceed the lowest basic salary in this Parliament? I am not saying that the issue of executive pay is not something that needs discussion in our country. It is one of the burning debates, one of the most serious burning debates in our country. But it is not assisted when these epithets are just flung out about excessive, exorbitant and whatever, where I have taken pains to try and explain where this notion of exorbitant and excessive was actually misguided and is bad arithmetic.

The intervention that I have made is that a remuneration panel is sitting and they are about to report to me in the next two weeks on their review of remuneration policies in the state-owned enterprises under the domain of the Department of Public Enterprises. That is where my intervention will go. I will look at their recommendations – those recommendations will be shared with Parliament - and perhaps it will stimulate a debate that will take us beyond just throwing insults and epithets and just presuming that, because an executive manager earns a good salary, that then is something disgraceful, immoral and out of order.

I think we need to have these kinds of debate. But I cannot intervene in terms of saying to Eskom, “you may not pay these salaries”, because that would undermine the corporate governance principles under which these institutions operate. I can give guidelines.

However, bear in mind that we are also mindful of the salaries that are paid to workers in these institutions. In Transnet and Eskom, which are two of the biggest employers in this country, a great deal of attention is paid to these kinds of salaries. You will find that Eskom and Transnet workers are probably the best paid workers in the field in South Africa at the moment. Thank you.

Steps taken by department to market and promote Bloodhound Supersonic Car event

1. Mrs X C Makasi (ANC) asked the Minister of Tourism: (a) What has his department done to market and promote the Bloodhound Supersonic Car event to break the land speed record and (b) how will this event benefit the people of the Northern Cape and the country as a whole? NO2667E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TOURISM: Chairperson, the response of the department on the Bloodhound Supersonic Car event is as follows. Firstly, this is not an event to which the national Department of Tourism or South African Tourism has sent in a bid; it is exclusively a provincial event of the department of finance, economic development and tourism in the Northern Cape. We have been informed that the department had entered into an agreement to host the event, and we welcome such initiatives by provincial departments. Secondly, the second question does not apply because of the response. Thank you.

Mrs M A A NJOBE: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Deputy Minister, although you say it is an exclusively provincial event, I think that the national department can probably take an interest and, if possible, assist in one way or another. Therefore, I will ask my question. The Black Rock Desert in the United States has become a landmark for testing experimental, fast land vehicles. It was the site of the most recent successful attempt on the world land-speed record.

My question, therefore, is: Will the Bloodhound Supersonic Car event occur annually, or, rather, should I say: Would you encourage the province to hold the event annually? Will your department make any effort to attract other speed car races to the Northern Cape or would you encourage the Northern Cape to attract other speed car races to the province? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TOURISM: Hon Chairperson, indeed the national Department of Tourism is geared to assist every initiative that brings in tourism to each province of the country. An initiative of this nature is, of course, going to bring international relations into the country. The first event that will take place in the Northern Cape will, of course, bring in a lot of infrastructure into the area. Definitely, it will be in our interest to encourage that it should be held most frequently. We cannot guarantee that it will be annual. But, due to the infrastructure that would have been put in place, it would be encouraged that it continues.

In each of the provinces they have identified niche markets and the Northern Cape has also identified this as part of their extreme sports. Therefore, it is one niche market that we wish to assist them to build because it is also going to benefit the whole country. Thank you.

Mr G R KRUMBOCK: Chairperson, I was relieved when I heard the Deputy Minister saying that we would not, as the Department of Tourism, be funding this event. It is apparently taking place on a dried-out desert lake in Mier, which must be the most inaccessible and inhospitable place in the entire country. But then, in answer to your next follow-up question, Minister, you said that we would wish to assist these types of events.

Now, I’m not quite sure: Are we, as the Department of Tourism, assisting this event or not? I would have thought that, since we’ve cut the SA Tourism’s budget by R160 million over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, period, this is the last thing we should be doing, having spent R43 billion remarketing our country, and then cutting back our advertising budget.

So, can you give us an idea of what the criteria are that the department is adopting to actually fund these types of events or not? When do we go ahead and do this? When do we leave it alone and concentrate on our core business, which is marketing our country oversees?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TOURISM: Chairperson, as I’ve indicated earlier on, the province has taken an initiative. For initiatives of this nature, when provinces indicate the need for assistance – especially an immediate need – it is only then that we consider the need that has been expressed.

As of now, when they were going about making their explorations until the time they signed the agreement, there was no specific need indicated to the department. However, from the information that they sent to us, we are following up to ensure that the proper processes are followed. If there are any financial implications, it is only then that we will be able to make consideration. But, generally, the whole country is looking into how we can co-ordinate the hosting of big events in the country, and that has to be co- ordinated at a central level.

So, even at this point in time, all is not lost. We are looking at going into the details of how far they have gone, and at what stage the event preparations are. It is not necessarily linked to the budget cuts of SA Tourism. Here we are looking at a province that is hosting an event whose budget would not necessarily be located at the agency which is responsible for marketing. Thank you.

     Departmental policy on repair of potholes on regional roads

1. Mr E J Lucas (IFP) asked the Minister of Transport:

   Whether it is his department’s policy to treat the repair of potholes
   on regional roads as urgent; if not, why not; if so, how does his
   department deal with this issue?       NO2621E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: House Chairperson, I hope that the Bloodhound Supersonic car doesn’t get onto any of our roads, Deputy Minister. We have enough cowboys on the roads as it is.

Regarding the hon Lucas’ question, I assume by regional roads he means provincial and subnational roads. Obviously they are not part of the national department’s competence. But, of course, like all of South Africa, we are deeply concerned about the condition of many of our roads, particularly provincial and local roads. We are deeply concerned about the potholes in them. For this reason, although it is not our level of competence, we are working very closely with other spheres of government and other entities responsible for roads.

For this reason, on 24 and 25 May this year, we had a major Road Construction and Maintenance Summit, which was convened by the Department of Transport. Some of the things and resolutions that emerged from this conference were that, in terms of the maintenance of our national road network - the road network that is looked after by the SA National Road Agency Limited, Sanral - the condition of those roads is generally good to excellent, and there is no maintenance backlog in terms of funding.

But there is a very, very significant maintenance backlog when it comes to other roads. The national department, Sanral and other entities reckon it is about a R70 billion backlog. I’ve heard figures from our colleagues in the DA suggesting it might be even higher. The truth is that I do not think any of us are really sure. But what we do know is that there is a very significant backlog.

How do we practically begin to do something about this and not just talk about it? Firstly, there needs to be much more efficient spending. Lots of money that is allocated to other spheres of government notionally for road maintenance and road construction doesn’t end up as tar. It ends up as all kinds of other things and gets diverted in other directions. So, we need to be much more efficient about this.

Then there is a tussle between expanding the road system and preserving what we have. Politicians — all of us — like to cut ribbons on new roads. Therefore, that is more often sexier than looking after the network we have. To get the correct balance we sometimes do need to build new roads, but we also need to look after what we have.

Apart from the national roads system, what is lacking in our country is a basic asset management of roads. What is happening? When one doesn’t have a proper asset management system in place, one doesn’t know what to prioritise. So, one submits to the pressures that one hears. For example, if there is a strong constituency in the bus or minibus sector, one is pressurised into doing something and does it.

This is also linked to doing the right things. Sometimes it’s not the most intelligent thing to repair the most destroyed road. Sometimes it’s better to begin to address maintenance issues on a road that is beginning to deteriorate because then one can, I think, get some 17 km compared to 1 km for the same amount of money that you spend looking after something that has become a dust road.

Critically, we have to begin to shift more freight loads off roads onto rail. That is why we are working very closely with the Minister of Public Enterprises and with our colleagues in Transnet to make sure that we really begin to shape up much more effectively in terms of Transnet Freight Rail. A lot of the damage being done to roads, which results in potholes, is caused by very heavy loads travelling on roads that were not designed for those levels of loads. [Interjections.] [Time expired.]

Mr E J LUCAS: Thanks, Deputy Minister for the good reply. Whilst we understand that our regional roads fall under the ambit and control of the provincial government, we deliberately request the Minister to step in, because not much has been done to repair these potholes.

We are also pleased to know that there is this summit that took place because that is encouraging. We are really looking for a solution to this problem. That is why we are putting this question forward.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, we obviously don’t want to be unconstitutional, and we shouldn’t be. But, at the same time, we must not shirk our responsibilities as the national department. This means working co-operatively with our colleagues in all spheres of government and assisting with, amongst other things which I did not mention, skills issues.

Many things are often said about public entities. But one of the public entities performing extremely well – sometimes too well, because I think we are spending too much money on freeways - is Sanral. I think there would be a general consensus on that. What we are increasingly asking Sanral to do is not just to build roads – not that they do this physically themselves, but they project-manage – but to also assist other spheres of government to more effectively look after maintenance, transfer skills and assist with tendering processes. So, we are looking at other mechanisms as well. But your point is appreciated, and we absolutely agree with what you are saying.

Mr M S F DE FREITAS: Thank you, Chairman. As the Deputy Minister said, potholes are prevalent throughout South Africa and cause endless damage to vehicles and even the loss of lives. It has reached a point where civil society such as insurance companies and farmers, for example, are now fixing potholes in their respective areas. This is an indictment on government and its inability to adequately deal with the backlog that the Minister has mentioned. At the same time there appears to be confusion as to whether pothole repairs are a national, provincial or even local government competency.

Will the Minister advise whether he has determined an allocation of funds from the recently announced dedicated road fund to other tiers of government for these pothole repairs and whether he will ensure that there are mechanisms put in place to ensure that funds are used as he has mentioned? If so, what are these allocations, and has he considered the creation of labour-intensive work opportunities from this exercise? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairman, my thanks to the hon De Freitas. I am not sure if insurance companies and farmers fit under the category of civil society. Sometimes I think they are under uncivil society.

But the point is noted. It is true that nongovernmental entities are stepping in. There is nothing wrong with that. Nongovernmental entities are also responsible for considerable damage, very often, and not insurance companies, but it is in their interest to ensure that …

I spent time with the Road Freight Association at the beginning of this week. I spent quite a lot of time talking to them about their responsibilities, to ensure that we work together to find ways of maintaining our road infrastructure. It is in their long-term self- interest.

Indeed, Minister Ndebele has a good track record of looking at Expanded Public Works Programmes to ensure that there is maintenance of roads. When he was the MEC of KwaZulu-Natal he had a wonderful programme – which is still running – of households on stretches of road looking after particular stretches. It is a wonderful model which we have replicated in a number of other provinces. Certainly Expanded Public Works Programmes are the way to go. These should not just be 60 days programmes, but a continuous maintenance of stretches of roads all year round. This is a very good approach because a lot of potholes are the result of the failure to do basic maintenance along the verges of roads, for instance. We need to clear road verges. We need to empty sewers, gutters and rainwater drains. If we do not do that, water gets under the surface and causes a lot of the damage. Those are basic things that do not require high levels of skill, but they are absolutely important.

On the question of funding road maintenance, we are in discussion with the National Treasury and the Minister of Finance around the matter. Minister Ndebele has proposed some kind of ring-fenced road maintenance fund so that money allocated to that is ring-fenced and does the job. That is a complicated area; it is not straightforward. But we are certainly looking energetically at some way of addressing it financially. Thank you. Mr L S NGONYAMA: Thank you, Chair. Hon Minister, I have an issue with the question of training and experience that you have referred to with regard to maintenance teams. Has the department ever considered creating a permanent team that will acquire that experience over time and be in a position to do the job properly? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chair, as I was trying to say, we do have such a team. I think there is a wonderful team in terms of road construction and road maintenance located in Sanral. Sanral was originally the section that dealt with roads in the old Department of Transport. It was spun out of the department in the mid-1990s and became a stand-alone agency. This is one of the positive and progressive examples. There is a great deal of skill and ability in terms of tendering processes, project management and looking after what is the unpopular thing, tolling and so forth - which is also an important thing in terms of raising money. That is located in Sanral.

As I said earlier in response to an earlier intervention, what we want to do now is to try to make sure that the skill which is located at a national level in Sanral, looking after 16 000 km of our national road network, also begins to become a skill that gets transferred to other spheres of government. Yes, indeed we do take the issue of skills seriously.

Mr S B FARROW: Thank you very much, Chairperson. On the whole issue of potholes - this brings to mind the Minister of Public Works sitting next to you there, Deputy Minister - has any research been done to establish some sort of permanent team such as the one we recently experienced at the Ugu District Municipality where they have set up units of entrepreneurs that go around and fix potholes? I am just wondering whether anything has been done about that because, firstly, it provides jobs and, secondly, we will be trying to get the problems sorted.

But more importantly, when you talk about nongovernmental agencies that are involved, like insurance companies and farmers, what indemnity do these people have in case one of those pieces of tar flies out and hits somebody in the face? There has to be something in terms of legality and responsibility with regard to the type of work being undertaken outside of the parameters of the Act. Could you answer this?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, to be quite honest, I am unable to answer the second part of the question. I’m not sure what the legalities are. It is obviously something we need to look at, especially if we are asking for other partners to be involved in assisting us.

I have a word of caution regarding preserving the road network we have. This relates to an earlier point I was making with regard to another question. We must be careful that, as a democratic government, we are not caught into preserving apartheid space and apartheid privileges. That is another thing we need to throw into the mix. There are a lot of roads which were built just to service a couple of farmers, for instance – lovely tarred roads. There are other roads which were built to service the army during the regional war in Southern Africa. We must not assume that we must simply preserve all of that and not begin to democratise and change space.

Certainly, as the ANC government, we take the issue of potholes and preserving the road network we have very seriously. But we mustn’t be caught in a game of simply preserving the past with all its privileges and skewed geographical realities. That is another challenge we need to place into the picture when we are looking at the road network and everything to do with spatiality and the transformation of the apartheid space, which is still very much with us in South Africa.

   Consideration of sunset clause to terminate affirmative action

1. Adv A de W Alberts (FF Plus) asked the Minister of Labour:

   Whether he is considering a sunset clause to terminate affirmative action (a) in general and (b) in respect of white people who have matriculated after 1994; if not, why not, in each case; if so, what are the relevant details in each case? NO2628E

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Sihlalo, ngelishwa lo ngumhluzi wamanqina. [Chair, unfortunately this is a futile allegation.]

I am not considering a sunset clause to terminate affirmative action, both generally and in respect of white people who’ve matriculated after 1994.

The main aim of the Employment Equity Act is to address imbalances in the workplace by eliminating unfair discrimination and introducing affirmative action measures for the equitable representation of the designated groups at all occupational levels and categories. In addition, employers are called upon to diversify their workplaces.

As reflected in the recently published 10th Commission for Employment Equity Annual Report, there is still a massive underrepresentation of designated groups in the workplace, particularly in the private sector. In line with international trends, government still views affirmative action as a necessary and an appropriate tool in addressing these imbalances and disparities in the workplace. In the light of these prevailing inequalities, any debate about a sunset clause to terminate affirmative action is completely irrelevant and very premature. Ke thina sixelelwe ukuba masilibambe lingatshoni. [We have been told to intensify.]

Mr P J GROENEWALD: Dankie, Voorsitter. [Thank you, Chairperson.] Hon Minister, I first want to say that, with that attitude, I can assure you that you will not make it into heaven. [Laughter.]

Agb Voorsitter, dit is onbillik om voorheen benadeelde jeugdiges te wil bevoordeel deur ’n nuwe benadeelde groep te skep. Die blanke matrikulante van vanjaar was twee jaar oud toe die ANC in 1994 aan bewind gekom het. Hulle het nie die voordele van apartheid nie. Hulle was nie deel van apartheid nie. Inteendeel, dit is juis hulle wat sukkel om beurse te kry om aan universiteite te studeer, want daar is nie geredelik beurse beskikbaar vir blanke studente nie. As u gaan kyk na die samestelling van die studente op universiteite, is daar basies nie meer ’n universiteit in Suid-Afrika waar die meerderheid blank is nie. Swart studente is verreweg in die meerderheid.

Minister, as u een rassegroep wil bevoordeel ten koste van ’n ander rassegroep, dan is dit mos nou niks anders as rassisme nie. En …

’n AGB LID: Dis so in die Grondwet!

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Dan is die Grondwet ’n rassistiese grondwet, as dit is wat die agb Minister of Adjunkminister hier sê. Dan is dit ’n rassistiese grondwet!

Nou wil ek vir die agb Minister vra of hy die Grondwet wil wysig om dit reg te stel. Dink u nie dit is onbillik om daarmee voort te gaan nie? (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Hon Chairperson, it is unfair to want to favour previously disadvantaged youths by creating a new group of people being disadvantaged. The white matriculants of this year were two years old when the ANC came to power in 1994; they did not enjoy the fruits of apartheid. They had no part in apartheid. On the contrary, they are actually the ones who are struggling to obtain bursaries to study at universities, because there are not enough bursaries readily available to white students. If one looks at the composition of students at universities there is no longer a university in South Africa where the majority of students are white. Black students are by far in the majority.

Minister, if you want to favour one racial group to the exclusion of another racial group, then it is nothing short of racism. And …

An HON MEMBER: It says so in the Constitution!

Mr P J GROENEWALD: Then the Constitution is a racist Constitution, if that is what the hon Minister or Deputy Minister is saying. Then it is a racist Constitution!

Now I want to ask the hon Minister whether he wants to amend the Constitution to rectify the issue. Don’t you think it is unjust to continue with this issue?]

UMPHATHISWA WEZABASEBENZI: Andiyicingi nokuyicinga loo ndebelefele uyidwabayo. [Kwahlekwa.] Bekumele ukuba abantu abamhlophe ngabona bayingcangcazelelayo nabayivuzela izinkcwe inkqubo yokukhawulelana nabo babengenamalungelo ngaphambili, kuba kwamanye amazwe ngabantu abaligcuntswana abaye benzelelelwe ngolu hlobo thina senzelela ngalo uninzi kweli lizwe. Besimelwe ke ngoko ukuba sisincamise, sisiphuze isandla soxolo esisinikwa yi-ANC. Oyena mntu ungazi kungena ezulwini nguwe, kuba izulu livulelwe bonke abantu, hayi abamhlophe, hayi abamnyana, hayi abatyheli. UYesu uyabamkela bonke kwisango lezulu. [Kwahlekwa.] (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[The MINISTER OF LABOUR: I do not even think about your ineffectual argument. [Laughter.] White people are supposed to be acknowledging and embracing the programme of redressing the imbalances of the past because in other countries only the minority groups are being catered for, unlike in our country where we focus more on the majority. We were therefore supposed to accept the olive branch the ANC is offering us. You are the one who will not enter God’s Kingdom because God’s Kingdom is open to everybody, black and white, and not the yellow ones. Jesus welcomes them all into the gates of God’s Kingdom. [Laughter.]]

Mr I M OLLIS: Minister, if I can get your attention for just a minute. Your friends in the FF Plus over there seem to only care about white people all the time. The ANC, on the other hand, seems to be enriching a few black glitterati. They are the ones who get all the contracts and take all the cream of the BEE deals and leave young South Africans with nothing.

The DA, however, is concerned about all the unemployed people of South Africa. [Applause.] When will the ANC drop this race-based redistribution system and focus on the currently disadvantaged people of all race groups in South Africa, Minister; the currently disadvantaged people?

UMPHATHISWA WEZEMISEBENZI: Umntu, malungu e-DA, ningabokumqhwabela ezombela ingcwaba; yingozi loo nto. [Kwahlekwa.] I-ANC, ingekaphathi kwa ukuphatha, yayinomqulu eyayiwubiza ngokuba nguReady to Govern. Wena ke ngeloo xesha mhlawumbi wawusathukulul’ emgodini kweny’ indawo endingazi kuyibiza ngegama. Ukuba unokufunda uReady to Govern, uza kuthi kuwe: (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[The MINISTER OF LABOUR: DA members, please stop cheering when someone is heading for a downfall; that is very dangerous. [Laughter.] The ANC, even before it assumed power, had a document called Ready to Govern. You were not even born then. If you read Ready to Govern, it states:]

We do not support giving positions to unqualified people simply on the grounds of race or gender.

Into emxinayo ke lo mhlekazi kukumimithekiswa ngamafutha okutyeba nemali emenza athi nethe. Ixhala lakhe kukuba wafika umnt’ omnyama. Kwaye uza kufika, mhlekazi, ngoba ilizwe eli lelethu xa sisonke. Musa ukuba nexhala ke ndod’ akuthi, akukho apho uza kuya khona. Thina siyi-ANC, asinadabi lokulwa abantu abamhlophe. Kodwa, ingcinezelo nocalu-calulo, inene umama elele emangcwabeni apha eNY 5, sizakuzilwa. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[What bothers this man is that he is so overwhelmed by wealth and by being filthy rich. His main concern is the arrival of a black person. Sir, the black man will indeed arrive, because this country belongs to all of us. You must not feel threatened, my brother; you are going nowhere. As the ANC, we do not wage war against white people. But we will fight against oppression and racism, and that I swear on my mother’s grave, which is in NY 5. [Applause.]]

Mr E NYEKEMBA: Thank you very much, House Chairperson.

Mphathiswa, mandizibandakanye nawe kwelithi malibanjwe lingatshoni. [Minister, let me join you in saying, let us intensify our efforts.]

Given the fact that affirmative action is one of the key sections in the Employment Equity Act, an Act which came about as a result of the Constitution of the Republic addressing the inequalities, in your response you have indicated that the Commission on Employment Equity, in its 10th report, revealed that there are inequalities in the workplace. How does the Minister intend to address these inequalities? What measures does he intend to put in place, because the Employment Equity Act has been in existence for more than 10 years, as I speak now. Thank you.

UMPHATHISWA WEZEMISEBENZI: Kungekudala amalungu eKomiti ejongene neMicimbi yeSebe lezaBasebenzi azakuhlangana nezilungiso kuMthetho woLungelelwaniso ngokwaseNgqeshweni. Sifuna ukuqinisa phaya ngasemva kanye ukuze izohlwayo zithi xhaxhe ukwenzela ukuba lo ungafuniyo ukuphumeza umthetho simbambe qha qwaba. Uza kube ukhona; uza kube ulapha kweli lizwe. Andiyi ndawo mna apha. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Very soon members of the Portfolio Committee on Labour will meet to discuss the amendments to the Employment Equity Act. We want to regulate there so as to ensure that the punitive measures are more intense so that those who do not want to implement the Act are arrested. You will be here, in this country. I am going nowhere.]

 Outcomes of audit into Sentech and measures taken to stabilise same

1. Mr S E Kholwane (ANC) asked the Minister of Communications:

   What (a) are the outcomes of the audit into Sentech that was
   commissioned earlier this year and (b) measures has he taken to
   stabilise Sentech?                                      NO2665E

The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: House Chair, the audit that the hon member is referring to was commissioned in 2009. In February 2010, I released the summary of the report together with its findings. Some of the outcomes of the audit report include the following: Firstly, the task team found that Sentech was in urgent need of a turnaround strategy and that its current position was caused by, amongst other things, a new legal and regulatory framework that had opened up the markets; secondly, a misaligned business strategy in support of the national service delivery agenda; and thirdly, the absence of a clear and comprehensive information and communications technology, ICT, industry framework.

The task team also found that the definition of Sentech’s role lies at the heart of the problem along with the strategies it pursued and its failure to break into the telecommunications market. In an endeavour to find a solution, the task team considered four options. The first option was to reposition Sentech in terms of its core competence as the broadcasting signal distributor. Secondly, Sentech was to leverage its core competence to look for opportunities on the continent where it is already doing business. The third option was for Sentech to continue with its diversification strategy of growing the telecommunications business. The fourth option was for Sentech to transfer its nonbroadcasting electronic communications network services, ECNS, and nonbroadcasting energy and combustion services, ECS, business to Infosat.

As a measure to stabilise Sentech, I have appointed a new board and a new chairperson. Further, I hold monthly bilateral meetings with the board where its strategic interventions to turn Sentech around are discussed.

Sentech has developed and submitted its corporate plan to the department. The proposed corporate plan highlights the following: Firstly, the identification of products or services that are not profitable and a consideration to either modify or discontinue services or products; secondly, the identification of product enhancement to increase profitability; thirdly, the identification of new products through research and development to fully utilise the group’s licences; and fourthly, the reduction of nonessential cost expenditure and development of business cases to support all capital expenditure.

The board has also instituted measures to restrict cash outflow by implementing emergency controls such as additional supply-chain management controls. The expenditure and turnaround committees have also been established. Additional control and supply-chain management include, among other things, database clean-up, updating the policy regarding supplier criteria and negotiating directly with suppliers instead of using supplier agents.

The expenditure committee’s role is to ensure that all commitments and current expenditure are supported by valid contracts and provide value for money services or goods. It also ensures that supply-chain management processes have been followed and expenditure is matched by revenue. Daily own cash balances are monitored to ensure sufficient cash availability. The turnaround committee’s role is to assist with initiatives to update all relevant policies, procedures and processes to alleviate cash flow strain.

Furthermore, the board … [Time expired.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Hon Minister, I really did extend the time by one minute to twenty minutes. So, could those who deal with responses in our offices please check on the timing of the questions’ responses. Mr S E KHOLWANE: Thank you, Chair. Hon Minister, thanks for your decisive leadership in appointing the new board for Sentech. However, one is interested in knowing, given what we have said, how Sentech is going to succeed, given the fact that no chief executive officer, CEO, has been appointed to date.

The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Chair, as I have indicated in my response, I meet Sentech for a bilateral meeting every month, and they have informed me that they are just about to complete the appointment of a CEO. There is an acting CEO; it is not a crisis. There is an acting CEO at present because after the departure of the CEO, the chief operations officer, COO, was appointed to that post but has since resigned. But I am informed by Sentech that they are in the process of short-listing, and recommendations on the appointment of a CEO will soon land on my desk. I thank you.

Mrs J D KILIAN: Chairperson, first of all, just to say that the hon Minister should actually have purchased a red BMW because we can call him the firefighter Minister.

As far as the Sentech issue is concerned, can I just say that it is very perturbing that, eight months into the new year, an audit report that was finalised last year has still not seen the light of day in its entirety. We have a Minister who had the findings and who briefed the committee on it, but we need to have the entire document. So, when will the Minister publish this audit report? Or is it one of those documents that would not have passed the censorship test if we had the Protection of Information Bill in place by now? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Chair, perhaps that might be the case. I have indicated, when that report was given to me, that I do not intend making it public. You must recall that that was not a forensic report, but a report by a task team which I had established. I indicated in my maiden Budget Vote last year that I intend establishing a task team that will investigate what we all perceived to be issues of governance and administration within Sentech and the South African Broadcasting Corporation.

The report that ensued from there confirmed things that we were actually worried about. But it was not a forensic audit or a forensic report: We wanted to act as speedily as possible without having any witch-hunt against anybody or harassing people, while ensuring that it enables us to take decisions that we wanted to take in order to change leadership at Sentech, which is what I did. I acted decisively, based on that report. But, because of the nature of that report, there is no way in which it could have been made public. Of course, perhaps it is quite true that it was open to legal challenge. We didn’t want that; we wanted a guide, something, an instrument that would allow us to take action to resolve the problems at Sentech. Thank you.

Ms L D MAZIBUKO: Mr Chairman, the leaked findings of the ministerial task team report, which hon Kilian has alluded to and which deals with the crisis that is currently plaguing Sentech, indicated that this is a public enterprise that’s in free fall, which, and I quote, “is in urgent need of a turnaround strategy”.

It is for this reason, Mr Chairman, that we in the DA look forward to next week’s report-back session when Sentech will have an opportunity to brief the portfolio committee on this turnaround plan and on the restructuring of the executive management. Surely the time has come for this task team report to be released in full. My question to the Minister is, how can the parliamentary portfolio committee be expected to conduct oversight, particularly given the recent resignation of the acting CEO and the allegations which have been levelled against the former chief financial officer, CFO? How can Parliament be expected to conduct effective oversight if it doesn’t have sight of this crucial report?

If the Minister won’t release the report – and I hear he was very circuitous in his answer about wanting to get to the root of the problems – can he elaborate more clearly what the problem is? What does the department have to hide that would prevent Parliament from being an effective overseer of this entity? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Chair, I am sure that the hon member will get all the answers that she needs when Sentech gets the opportunity to present itself in the following week or so. I have no doubt that the hon member will be satisfied with the ongoing positive work that is being done by the board in the attempt to turn Sentech around. I am confident that the board is in good hands and that Sentech is on its way to recovery.

I have indicated that I at present have no intention to release the report, as it is not a forensic report. It does not give the confidence that it can withstand the scrutiny of a courtroom. For instance, people who are mentioned in the report could go to court and challenge it. But it was a sufficient basis for me upon which to act in order to try to turn Sentech around. Thank you.

Steps taken to promote awareness of legislation that seeks to protect the poor and illiterate

1. Rev K R J Meshoe (ACDP) asked the Minister of Trade and Industry:

   What steps has he taken to promote awareness of legislation such as the National Credit Act, Act 34 of 2005, and the Consumer Protection Act, Act 68 of 2008, that seeks to protect the rights of the poor and illiterate who sign contracts without due regard to its “small print”? NO2627E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Mrs T V Tobias-Pakolo): Chair, in view of the fact that you said we need to be brief, I will summarise my response.

The Consumer Protection Act was passed in 2008 and will be enforced in October 2010. The Office of Consumer Protection, which is in the Department of Trade and Industry, has implemented different activities, such as awareness campaigns, media capacity-building, a return and refund campaign, and business visits to ensure that people understand the National Credit Act and the Consumer Protection Act.

The National Credit Regulator has promoted awareness through workshops, brochures and annual assessment of the effectiveness of awareness programmes. I think the hon member will understand that almost 2 000 workshops have been conducted around the country. I thank you.

Rev K R J MESHOE: Thank you, Chairperson, and thank you Deputy Minister for your answer. Many of our people have lost valuable assets such as houses and cars because they were made to sign contracts they either did not fully understand or did not know the seriousness of what is commonly known as the small print in the contract.

This so-called small print has been a source of pain and frustration for many consumers who overlooked important information that was deliberately hidden from them in the small print. How will the Minister promote and provide further consumer education to people with a limited ability to read and comprehend contracts written in a language other than their mother tongue, to ensure that they do not become victims of small print in contracts that they have to sign? I thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Mrs T V Tobias-Pakolo): Chairperson, I tend to agree with hon Meshoe. In the recent past people have lost valuable assets because of what is termed “small print” or “fine print”. In all business transactions that occurred in the past, sellers used to disregard the fact that they needed to explain to people what they were about to sign. In the past, many people actually signed away their rights. That is how businesses used to operate.

The National Credit Act actually protects the consumers. It is their legal right to obtain an explanation – in their mother tongue – about the implications of the fine print of the decision they are about to take. In the event that somebody has experienced such misfortune, I suggest that they be sent to the Department of Trade and Industry, DTI, so that we can deal with the cases as and when they come before us. I thank you.

Mr A P VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Deputy Minister, as you can see in the question, the Consumer Protection Act was passed more than two years ago. One of the ways in which the Act seeks to protect consumers is through the establishment of a consumer commission.

While the commission has not yet been established, posts were recently advertised and the combined remuneration of the posts of the commissioner and deputy commissioner exceeds R2,2 million. How can this amount be justified at a time when government is claiming to be unable to meet the salary demands of disgruntled public servants? I thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Mrs T V Tobias-Pakolo): Chairperson, it is a pity that the hon member is being opportunistic by raising the issue of the strike when referring to the work of a commission. We all know that the lifespan of a commission is short-lived and that it warrants certain specific expertise to conduct its work, which is very hectic in most instances.

If we compare the budget of that commission with the budgets of all other commissions which were ever established before, and consider its scope of work, then I think you are being unfair, to say the least, when you claim that this is a lot of money. I thank you.

Mr L S NGONYAMA: [Interjections.] You are going to burn in heaven. Chair, my issue, directed at the Minister, is specifically about what is referred to in section 22 of the Consumer Protection Act. My issue concerns the use of plain language and is not about the size of the words – in other words, the small print – it is about the use of plain language.

What is it that the department is doing about this issue to make sure that the contracts are in a language that is generally understandable? We can take it even further and consider the very Bills and Acts debated here in Parliament. It is a very serious issue. Coming up with plain language is what is really pertinent.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Mrs T V Tobias-Pakolo): Hon Ngonyama, I think you heard that I agreed with hon Meshoe about the fine print. But, we need to be clear as to what we are talking about. Concerning plain language, it is the business people who, when doing their business transactions, do not explain in what we term plain language. The law dictates that they explain, hence I say that if there is a specific case where plain language was not used to explain, it needs to come to us so that we can deal with it according to the Consumer Protection Act.

It is when people are not given an explanation as to what they are about to sign, that we need to act. The Consumer Protection Act actually protects consumers’ rights. If there is a case where it was not explained to people in plain language, then that case needs to come forward so that we can deal with it. I thank you.

Mr S J F MARAIS: Chairperson and Deputy Minister, both the Consumer Protection Act and the National Credit Act have possible unforeseen and/or unintended consequences. I want to use an example. The used vehicle industry not only contributes to economic development but also offers an opportunity to lower-income citizens to acquire cars.

Until now, cheaper used cars could have been sold on the voetstoots principle, but, in terms of the Act, the buyer can now return the vehicle after six months, even if it was not properly maintained. What measures and remedies are available to protect the interest of the sellers of goods and services and the grantors of credit?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Mrs T V Tobias-Pakolo): Chair, it was a new question. Can the hon member repeat it for me slowly please?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Hon member, can you please repeat it?

Mr S J F MARAIS: Yes, I can. As I have said, both the Consumer Protection Act and the National Credit Act have possible unforeseen and/or unintended consequences. I used the example of the second-hand or used car industry, where a vehicle can be returned after six months even if it was not properly maintained. What measures and remedies are available to protect the interest of the sellers of goods and services and the grantors of credit?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Mrs T V Tobias-Pakolo): Chair, we always strike a balance between the interests of people who are selling goods and services and that of the consumers. Our department cannot only protect the interests of the sellers at the expense of the rights of the consumers. In the event that any part of legislation has unintended consequences, we need to stipulate which part of the legislation is subjecting a seller to unintended consequences. That part will then be subjected to a discussion. I thank you.

Particulars regarding (i) registration of land returned to claimants and (ii) security of tenure of residents

1. Mr R N Cebekhulu (IFP) asked the Minister of Rural Development and Land Reform:

   (1) Whether land returned to claimants in the rural areas is registered to the amakhosi (chiefs) and/or to specific persons; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (2) what security of tenure does persons who reside in these areas have? NO2624E

The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Hon House Chair, the question has two parts. The answer for part one of Question 105 is no. The land is registered to legal entities such as communal property associations and/or trusts.

The answer to the second part of the question is that security of tenure of persons in these areas is made possible under the provisions of the Informal Land Rights Act and, in the case of KwaZulu-Natal, the Ingonyama Trust. Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr R N CEBEKHULU: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, I just want to follow up on the issue of areas where, when farms were bought and people had the right to go back, you would find that the people simply went into those areas. Who actually has the right to be there? Mostly, in the state land, people simply just flocked there and occupied the space. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Hon Minister, I hope you got the question? [Interjections.] Oh, is it just a comment?

Mr R N CEBEKHULU: Yes, it is just a comment.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Thank you, hon member. Mrs A STEYN: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, you have alluded to the Ingonyama Trust, but there are also other CPAs and trusts that we know – I think there are more than 3 000 – were registered. My question is, in light of this predominance of the collective approach to land reform in South Africa, what mechanisms have been put in place by the department to ensure that individual members in these trusts receive security of land rights? I ask this because there is so much infighting that no one has any security. Thank you, Chairperson.

The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Hon House Chair, the conflicts are caused by many reasons. It’s not so much the security in the sense of the system; it may be social insecurity in the sense of conflicts which are caused by various factors. For example, people often come together from various areas. They were never a community. If they were a community, it was one or two generations ago and now they are brought back together because of the restitution. Now, the CPA tries to bring them together as communities.

The second aspect of this is that, when they come back, they come back to areas where they were before, and these were communal areas. CPAs create communal areas within communal areas. That alone constitutes a source of conflict. There are many other things, but those are the key reasons for the conflicts. It’s not so much that there is no security of tenure, because the outer boundary title is one and all of them belong there. These are matters that need to be managed by us, particularly looking at the efficacy of the law itself. Thank you, Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): I have two names from Cope. Only one can ask a follow-up question. [Interjections.] [Laughter.]

Mr D A KGANARE: Chairperson, after observing all the people who want to go to heaven, I think it’s going to be a very dangerous place and I don’t want to go there. [Laughter.]

Minister, in view of the high rate of rural unemployment, feminisation of poverty and food insecurity, what is the department doing to assist women who are still perceived as minors in the rural areas to have security of tenure, despite what the law says?

The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Hon House Chair, well, we have a couple of programmes there. Firstly, the comprehensive Rural Development Programmes, RDP, projects are dominated by women so far. Secondly, now, as we speak, we are going to launch the National Rural Youth Service Corps with 12 000 young people, and 50% of them are women from all rural wards across the country. From each rural ward, we have taken four people, one of whom is a disabled person.

Chair, I would like to take this opportunity to request the hon members to assist us, because we are looking for about 3 000 disabled people to take part in this programme. At the moment, we have only 300 people from only rural wards. Thank you, Chairperson.

Ms P P XABA: Hon Chairperson, can the Minister outline how he intends dealing with the current land tenure system, and what proposal he has for the future? Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Hon member at the back, please switch off the mike. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Hon Chair, in the budget policy speech to the House, we proposed a three-tier system on land tenure reform and that will be tabled before the House. We have debated this with farmers and have said that this is the best way to go. Under the circumstances prevailing now, and given the history of the leakage of land that would have been returned by government to those from whom it was acquired, moving forward, the land — which belongs to the state and the public entities — will be leased rather than sold. To protect the acquisitions and gains we are making in terms of land reform, the tenure system will be leasehold. But in terms of privately owned property, it will be freehold and, as we have said, we will retain that with limited extent.

The extent to which a commercial farming entity will be limited, that is, whether it will be a large-scale, medium-scale or small-scale commercial farming entity, will firstly depend on the commodity that is found in the entity. Secondly, it will be determined through debate in the Green Paper.

The last tier concerns foreign landownership. Again, that is privately- owned, whether domestic or international. Thus, we say that it will emerge and also be affected and its extent limited by this Act. Additionally, they will have to comply with particular conditions and obligations with respect to their compliance with the land reform regime that will come into place. Thank you, Chair.

See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr G LEKGETHO: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House debates how to develop and create more internships and learnerships for our youth so as to give them the skills and experience to compete successfully in the job market.

Thank you.

Dr D T GEORGE: Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move the following motion on behalf of the DA:

That the House debates the latest GDP growth data released by Statistics SA and proposes immediate measures that can be implemented to improve economic growth in the near future.

Thank you.

Mr S B FARROW: Chair, I hereby give notice that I shall move the following motion on behalf of the DA:

That the House debates the issue of the increased number of level
crossing accidents taking place in our country and comes up with
possible solutions to eliminate this problem.

Thank you.

Mr V V MAGAGULA: House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House debates moral regeneration as a vehicle for building    communities grounded on positive values, a caring society and the    pursuit of lasting peace and prosperity in the country.

Thank you.

Mr V G SMITH: Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That this House debates inmate labour and its contribution to skills transfer, resocialising and reintegration of ex-offenders into the broader society, as well as its contribution towards making the Department of Correctional Services self-sufficient.

Thank you.

Mr T BOTHA: Hon Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of Cope:

That House debates the horrific loss of life caused by minibus-taxi drivers all over the country lacking the advanced skills and training necessary for the job.

  CONGRATULATIONS TO SABINE LEHMANN OF TABLE MOUNTAIN CABLEWAY AND
 NONKULULEKO GOBODO, FIRST BLACK CA ON ACHIEVEMENTS IN THEIR FIELDS

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon House Chairperson, I move without notice: That the House —

  1) notes that two South African businesswomen, Sabine Lehmann, CEO of
     Table Mountain Cableway Company and Nonkululeko Gobodo, CEO of
     Gobodo Incorporated, have been awarded prestigious awards for their
     outstanding work in their respective fields;

  2) recognises that Sabine Lehmann won CEO Magazine’s 2010 Most
     Influential Woman in Business and Government award in the tourism
     and leisure category;

  3) further recognises that Nonkululeko Gobodo was awarded the 2010
     Woman of Substance Award by the African Women Chartered Accountants
     (AWCA) recently, was South Africa’s first black woman to qualify as
     a Chartered Accountant (CA) in 1987 and has been an inspiration and
     leading voice in the country’s auditing and advisory industry for
     the past two decades; and

  4) congratulates both Sabine Lehmann and Nonkululeko Gobodo for
     excelling in their respective careers and for being good role
     models to young women and girls in South Africa.

Agreed to.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Hon member at the back, we are now on motions without notice, not notices of motion. Are you on it? CONGRATULATIONS TO MISS FAITH MUTHAMBI ON BEING APPOINTED MEMBER OF COUNCIL AT UNIVERSITY OF VENDA

                         (Draft Resolution)

Prof L B G NDABANDABA: Hon Chair, I move without notice:

That this House —

  1) congratulates Miss Faith Muthambi, a member of this honourable
     House, for joining the Deputy President at the University of Venda
     as a member of council;

  2) notes that Miss Muthambi is only 36 years of age and was appointed
     as a member of the university council with effect from 12 July
     2010.

HON MEMBERS: Malibongwe! [Praise!] [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Thank you.

Prof L B G NDABANDABA: Chair, to proceed … that the House —

  3) needs to acknowledge that this is an achievement for the young
     people of this country and the women of our glorious movement, the
     ANC;

  4) further acknowledges that Miss Muthambi is the first and youngest
     external member to serve in such a high, decision-making body of
     the University of Venda, and

    5) congratulates her and wishes her the best for the future.

I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, I rise on a point of order, sir: The hon Ndabandaba has just proposed a quite remarkable and very pleasant motion without notice, but I am afraid what he has done, sir, is indicate to the House, yet again, that there is no discipline on the side of the ANC. He will know, and certainly, the Chief Whip of the Majority Party will know, that a motion without notice goes through the Whippery first of all, and consequently, I need to say that we cannot support that motion.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Chief Whip?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: We agree. I think there was a breakdown somewhere. The motion was supposed to be circulated. We agree that this is out of order. The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Thank you. The motion will therefore not be tabled today. We will have to wait for the next time.

TAXI ACCIDENT AT BAKENSKOP LEVEL CROSSING IN BLACKHEATH IN WHICH TEN
                   CHILDREN DIED AND FIVE INJURED

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chair, I move without notice:

That the House—

  1) notes with great sadness that ten children died and five were
     seriously injured when a train hit a taxi at a level crossing at
     Bakenskop outside Cape Town in the early hours of this morning;


  2) further notes that the number of accidents of this nature has
     steadily increased over the past few months;

  3) recognises that safety measures relating to level crossings need
     to be implemented as a matter of urgency to prevent tragic
     accidents of this nature occurring in the future;

  4) further recognises that further rules and regulations need to be
     implemented on our roads to reduce the number of accidents;

  5) thanks the paramedics who assisted at the scene of this accident
     for their efficient service; and
  6) conveys its deepest condolences and sympathies to the families of
     the children.

Agreed to.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Is it an objection, hon Deputy Minister?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: It is just a brief amendment. Obviously, one supports the motion that has been placed before us.

When we came into the House, the death toll had risen to 10, and so, we should amend the motion to that effect. We should also note that in this case, all of the safety barriers and things were in place, and this was just reckless driving. We do not need to put that into the motion, but I was listening to the DA MEC Carlisle, who was on the spot. Basically, in this case, the safety barriers, and so on, were in place. The booms were down, and this driver just recklessly went around all of that. So, I think that, in supporting the motion, one should just amend some of it, if that is possible. However, if that is not possible, certainly one should support it.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): I will leave it with the parties. The Deputy Minister has asked that the motion as proposed be supported with a few amendments. Is it agreed to by all parties?

Motion, as amended, agreed to.

                 CASTER SEMENYA’S VICTORY IN BERLIN

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House —

  1) congratulates world-renowned athlete Caster Semenya for once again
     making South Africa proud after making a triumphant return to the
     Olympic Stadium in Berlin, where she cruised to victory in the
     women’s 800 metres;


  2) notes that Semenya’s victory is a triumph against all odds,
     considering the 11-month lapse when she was forced to miss many
     athletics competitions while waiting for the results of her gender
     tests; and

  3) wishes Caster all the best in all her upcoming athletics
     competitions, including her Diamond League debut in Brussels on
     Friday.

Agreed to.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): I would just like to go back to the previous motion, hon Ian Davidson. I am advised by the NA Table staff that, if there are any amendments added to a motion that has already been circulated to parties and agreed to, such amendments can only be accepted when the motion is withdrawn, redrafted, recirculated and has come back to the House. I am not sure, because the Deputy Minister has a request that those light amendments be added. I see the hand of the Deputy Minister.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chair, in that case I withdraw. Obviously, it is important that this Parliament, all of us collectively, express our deep concern and condolences around this matter. I do not want to keep us from doing that. If it is not possible to amend it, then certainly, we should not delay passing this motion.

Mr M J ELLIS: Chairperson, on a point of order: I thank the hon Cronin for his attitude but it is certainly possible if this House agrees to amend the figure eight to ten. That certainly will satisfy him. At least it makes the statement factually correct.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): If that is the case, I think it is in order. However, the Rules are something else. According to the Rules, we cannot do it here. We have to redraft it and bring it back. [Interjections.]

There is another view. We now have another interpretation of the Rules and I do not know what is happening. The NA Table staff says that if it is just a number that is being proposed to be amended, we can allow it. However, if it is substance, then we cannot allow it. [Interjections.]

It is a number? So we agree that a number is added as an amendment, that there are no objections and that we agree to the motion.

Agreed to.

  LAUNCH OF THE AFRICA CENTRE FOR CLIMATE AND EARTH SYSTEMS SCIENCE

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House —

  1) notes the launch of the Africa Centre for Climate and Earth Systems
     Science, which will provide regional decision-makers with reliable
     climate information, enabling them to balance developmental needs
     with responses to threats posed by environmental change;

  2) further notes that Access is a consortium of research institutions
     and agencies that have signed up to contribute to a whole greater
     than the sum of their parts including the Universities of the
     Witwatersrand, Cape Town, Western Cape, Pretoria, Stellenbosch,
     KwaZulu-Natal and Rhodes, along with the SA Weather Service, SA
     Biodiversity Institute, Agricultural Research Council, Geosciences
     Research Council, SA Environmental Observation Network, and the
     hosts of the centre, the Council for Scientific and Industrial
     Research (CSIR), while the secretariat will be set up at the Centre
     for High Performance Computing at the CSIR Campus in Rosebank,
     Johannesburg; and

  3) welcomes the collaboration amongst our research institutions which
     have already implemented a research programme with several projects
     focused on a number of earth system issues, a services programme
     that will develop a series of products for use by service providers
     and an educational programme that includes a bursary, winter school
     and a national master’s degree programme.

Agreed to.

The House adjourned at 17:21. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly

The Speaker

1. Request for Assembly to recommend candidate for National Lotteries Board

 1) A letter dated 17 August 2010 has been received from the Minister
    of Trade and Industry, requesting the relevant Assembly committee
    to recommend a candidate who complies with sections 3(1)(c) and
    3(2) of the Lotteries Act, No 57 of 1997, for appointment as a
    member of the National Lotteries Board.
    Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry for
    consideration.

1. Referral to Committees of papers tabled

 1) The following papers are referred to the Standing Committee on
    Finance for consideration and report. The reports of the
    Independent Auditors and the Auditor-General on the Financial
    Statements are referred to the Committee on Public Accounts for
    consideration:

    (a)      Annual Financial Statements of the Corporation for Public
         Deposits for 2009-10, including the Report of the Independent
         Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2009-10.


    (b)      Report and Financial Statements of the Land and
         Agricultural Development Bank of South Africa (Land Bank ) for
         2009-10, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
         Consolidated Financial Statements for 2009-10 [RP95-2010].

 2) The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
    Public Enterprises for consideration and report. The report of the
    Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and Performance
    Information is referred to the Committee on Public Accounts for
    consideration:

      a) Report and Financial Statements of the Broadband Infraco (Pty)
         Limited for 2009-10, including the Report of the Independent
         Auditors on the Financial Statements and Performance
         Information for 2009-10 [RP170-2010]. 1. Membership of Assembly

 1) The vacancy which occurred in the National Assembly owing to the
    resignation of Rev H M Dandala with effect from 15 July 2010, has
    been filled with effect from 15 July 2010 by the nomination of Mr M
    G P Lekota. 4.    Membership of Committees

 1) The following changes have been made to the membership of
    Committees:


    Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development


    Appointed:          Fritz, Mr A (Alt)      DA


    Portfolio Committee on Rural Development and Land Reform


    Discharged:    Balindlela, Ms N      COPE


    Appointed:     Carter, Ms D          COPE


    Ad Hoc Committee on Protection of Information Bill


    Discharged:    Coetzee, Mr T         DA


    Appointed:     Smuts, Mr D           DA


    Appointed:          Coetzee, Mr T (Alt)    DA
    Appointed:          Swart, Mr S            ACDP

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Acting Minister of Energy

(a)     Amendments to Articles VI and XIV.A of the Statute of the
    International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), tabled in terms of
    section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.

(b)     Explanatory Memorandum to the Amendments to Articles VI and
    XIV.A of the Statute of the International Atomic Energy Agency
    (IAEA).

National Assembly

1. The Speaker

(a)     The Report of the Independent Complaints Directorate on
    Domestic Violence for the period July – December 2009, tabled in
    terms of subsection (4)(a) of the Domestic Violence Act, 1998 (Act
    No 116 of 1998).