WEDNESDAY, 15 SEPTEMBER 2010 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 14:04.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

The SPEAKER: The moment of silence for prayer or meditation does not include the little ones. Welcome to the gallery! [Laughter.]

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

A REVIEW OF PROGRESS MADE IN MEETING INTERNATIONAL COMMITMENTS IN THE AREA OF DEMOCRACY AND HUMAN RIGHTS, WITH A FOCUS ON AREAS FOR FUTURE EFFORTS.

           (Debate on International Day of Democracy 2010)

Mr S J NJIKELANA: Speaker, the august House, and the gallery at large, today we are celebrating International Democracy Day, and I would like to share with you my views and experiences around how Africa has made efforts in advancing democracy.

We definitely have to take pride in celebrating this eventful day in view of our history in ridding ourselves of colonialism and facing neoliberalism these days as well as all schools of thought and practices that tend to impinge on or even undermine democracy.

Africa’s efforts in advancing democracy and human rights can be articulated very aptly through initially the Organisation of African Unity, OAU, historically, and the African Union, AU, currently. But, obviously, I would also like to include the role and initiatives taken up by the Pan-African Parliament in the efforts of advancing democracy and human rights in our continent.

One of the outstanding efforts that have been taken up by the African Union is the African Peer Review Mechanism. This mechanism focuses on the African countries supervising themselves — if I can use simple language — or to ensure peer review for advancing democracy and ensuring that human rights are respected. That is obviously also seen in the initiative of the African Renaissance, as well as Nepad, not to mention the various charters that have been adopted by the African Union.

I would like to make specific reference to the African Charter on Democracy, Elections and Governance, which unfortunately our country has not yet ratified. This charter, amongst other fundamental issues that it raises, ensures that all African countries respect and abide by democratic values. It also, in the way it has been crafted, ensures that African countries dare not change governance through military means. It emphasises that if there are any changes that are supposed to take place in any government, it should be through appropriate democratic means - and that is free and fair elections.

Let me go further and state the fact that we also need to acknowledge that civil society in Africa has done a fair job because it has been able, where possible, to work with governments to advance democratic value and human rights.

However, it is also fair to indicate that, unfortunately in some of our African countries, relations between civil society, especially active civil society organisations, and those respective governments are not necessarily of the best.

I trust and hope that as parliamentarians, as we interact through structures such as the Pan-African Parliament, we will obviously ensure that there is respect, recognition and even encouragement of the participation of civil society in our efforts to advance democracy and respect for human rights.

The role of Africa in the global efforts of fighting for democracy and respect for human rights can be seen in Africa’s participation in various international bodies. One can mention a few: the United Nations, the Non- Aligned Movement, the Inter-Parliamentary Union and so forth. It is fair to say that in all these various international bodies Africa’s participation has been informed and guided by its charters, and that is an effort worth encouraging.

Let me come to the role of the ANC-led government, particularly in advancing democracy and human rights in Africa. It is fair to say that once again, if you look at the charter that I have referred to, namely the African Charter on Democracy, Elections and Governance, you would find that quite a number of the issues that are raised in that charter resonate with our Bill of Rights and our Constitution. That then definitely illustrates that South Africa has been able to influence such charters. In fact, to be quite fair, South Africa was central in crafting that charter.

Beyond such noble efforts in advancing democracy and human rights, I think it is also appropriate that we share as to what then the future holds for us. How do we focus on areas that still need improvement?

The first area that I would like to present to this august House is that there is a need for us as public representatives to strengthen links between Parliament and our citizens. It is very fundamental because we have a historical and constitutional duty to do so.

Furthermore, linked to that is the transformation of the Pan-African Parliament, which is still a consultative body, into a full legislative body. I also trust that, once again, this august House will support the delegates from this House in their efforts to ensure that when the Pan- African Parliament becomes a fully legislative body, it will be able to capably ensure that democracy is deepened in Africa and that human rights are respected and upheld.

Lastly, quite a number of members in the past have been raising the issue of having a Nepad desk here in Parliament, and I would like to reinforce that by proposing that it is high time that our Parliament explores the formation of an AU desk here in Parliament and, amongst other things, ensures that democracy is deepened in Africa and human rights are upheld. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr S MOKGALAPA: Thank you, hon Speaker. Today marks the 16th anniversary of celebrating the International Day of Democracy since the Inter- Parliamentary Union adopted the universal declaration on democracy that affirms the principles of democracy and exercises in democratic government and the global scope of democracy. The UN proclaimed this day in November

1. This day is to serve as a reminder that the need to promote and protect democracy is as urgent now as ever.

In this regard, Parliament is the central institution in democracy. This is also relevant for South Africa as we celebrate 16 years of our democracy with significant milestones for our Constitution that safeguards and guarantees the Bill of Rights and ensures that regular free and fair elections are held.

However, since the advent of our democracy and our participation in world politics, our international relations have left much to be desired. Our track record in the UN General Assembly has been controversial and disappointing. Our voting patterns on topical issues, for example, Myanmar and Burma, and our stance on the Dalai Lama has shocked the world.

Our participation in the United Nations Security Council has also been marked by controversy and failure to influence change. Our blockades of the issue of Zimbabwe are some of our legacies in this august world body. Our continued relationship with rogue states in Africa like Guinea Bissau and the DRC, where according to a UN report human rights abuses are still happening, is a source of shame.

South Africa cannot be an island of democracy in a sea of undemocratic states. If we enjoy our democracy, then why are we not sharing the fruits with our neighbours, Zimbabwe and Swaziland, where political persecution is still permitted and we are watching blindly, doing nothing?

On a parliamentary question to the Minister concerning Swaziland, the response was that the South African government has made no representations to the Swaziland government concerning the political situation and has no intention of doing so. This continues to be the same with our failed, quiet diplomacy in the case of Zimbabwe that yielded no result for 10 years to bring about democracy in Zimbabwe. Our democracy is not sustainable if our neighbours are not free.

Mr Speaker, we need to go back to our constitutional imperatives and our foreign policy principles that focus on the promotion of human rights and democracy. The question here is: Why, up to now, have we not ratified these important treaties? I refer to the charter on Democracy, Elections and Governance adopted in Addis Ababa in 2007, the International Convention on the Protection of all Migrant Workers and the Convention against Torture?

We are defaulting on our noble principles and international commitments to promote human rights, democracy and international law when we support the AU stance not to honour the ICC warrant issued against Mr Al Bashir.

The challenges of democracy in Africa still continue today as we mark this day. There is lack of respect for human rights; intolerance; unconstitutional changes of governments; and a lack of adherence to the rule of law. We need to ensure that we encourage and instil respect for international law in Africa and ensure that civil society exercises, protects, claims and creates its rights.

On the domestic front, we need to ensure that our international commitments make a tangible difference to the lives of the poor by attempting to reach the Millennium Development Goals of halving poverty by 2015, as we have become the most unequal society in the world. We need to encourage vibrant civil society to participate in our democratic process and provide quality education for our young people.

In conclusion, looking forward to the future we need to strengthen our democratic institutions domestically and speak out against neighbours who are violators of these rights. We need to affirm our position as champions of democracy and human rights.

South Africa has a moral obligation in consolidating the African agenda, not only through brotherhood and sisterhood, but through making sure that human rights and democracy are promoted and protected and through respect for international law in the region and on the continent.

We must work hard on changing our tainted image in the international arena and continue to honour our international commitments by staying true to our constitutional values and ensuring that we report timeously on progress made with this commitment. We must also make sure that our democracy is sustainable through civil society participation. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Hon Speaker, this is an important debate. I think all of us today are happy that we are celebrating International Democracy Day. However, as we celebrate today and as the people of South Africa, we can also say that we celebrate because, indeed, the South African government has done a lot in the field of democracy in the country.

When we look at the work that has already been done on the continent, we can rightfully say that we are celebrating because much has been done in the field of democracy. As we celebrate we must make those points clear. However, the celebration must not only be a feel-good celebration for all of us.

As we celebrate we must also say that we have a task as South African people on the continent. We have already started on that task in terms the African Peer Review Mechanism that was put in place. It is also being realised in terms of the work that has been done to ensure that the African Peer Review Mechanism is actually being realised and implemented. Whether it is in the area of Nepad or any other, we must always drive that process and make sure that we achieve those results.

As we celebrate, we must be debating and looking at the bigger question that we must confront in terms of the continent. Where there are human rights issues in some areas which are not necessarily practised, it is our responsibility to ensure that we continue to lead and make sure that human rights are being realised.

On this continent, whether it is an issue of Sudan, Darfur or Swaziland, we must make sure that as a country with people that take pride in the Constitution, we remain in the forefront to achieve whatever we set out to achieve.

The big issues that we must confront on this continent when it comes to the people are the issues of hunger, health, youth and child abuse, particularly as they are made slaves and soldiers in the conflict areas. This remains our responsibility, and we cannot fail, as South Africa and as the people of South Africa, to make sure that we lead on this front.

In conclusion, the issue about the continent and poverty remains a bigger issue, and as we celebrate, we must ask ourselves how we are going to confront it. The issue of the Gini coefficient continues to put us on the map of unaffordability.

This, therefore, remains a challenge and as we celebrate, we must pause and say that we are determined to continue to make sure that we drive this programme. After all, the state is a state in the protection of the people. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Speaker, we recall the tradition of the majority’s prerogative to choose its leaders, to choose its government and the extent to which it can exercise state power, bequeathed to world politics through Greece - Athens, to be precise.

Parliament, which is now known as a speaking place, was handed down to us through the ages as the embodiment and expression of the general will, a pursuit of the virtues of social political and economic justice for all citizens.

In his address to the meeting of the institutions supporting democracy, referred to as Chapter 9 institutions, the Speaker of the National Assembly, the hon Sisulu, among other things, called for Parliament to strengthen these institutions. In my view, strong, dedicated, experienced and assertive parliamentarians will achieve this and much more.

We are here, morally and otherwise contracted by the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, to deliver a better life for all our people and beyond. However, a weak, unassertive Member of Parliament makes a weak institution of Parliament, which then becomes the soft underbelly of our democracy and a threat to our sovereignty.

The crisis of the constitution in 17th century England saw a frantic political battle by the English parliament to strike a balance between the prerogatives of the king and the fundamental rights of the subjects. The Englishmen believed this would bring harmony and political stability to the polity, for the good of all governed. Subsequently the English parliament moved swiftly to democratise the body politic. Unfortunately, I must say these noble efforts were not adequate to avoid the 1688 English Revolution.

For 16 years the Republic fared relatively well and even President Zuma recently expressed optimism in the progress made by South Africa on some of the Millennium Development Goals. It is also a word of encouragement and support to leaders of other African countries.

Internationally, South Africa is navigating the tempestuous seas of globalising economies and geopolitical power, where the world democracies like the United States, European Union, India, etc, and the world autocracies such as Russia, China, etc, including the theocracy in Iran, are battling for greater regional influence and international power.

A lot remains to be done on the part of South Africa to bring political stability and an internationally acceptable climate of democracy and human rights to Zimbabwe, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Swaziland and Darfur, and also to the Middle East.

In conclusion, I believe this Parliament, as the voice of the people and the custodian of our democracy, should take heed that of late the poor have started to become restless. They are seriously questioning the relevance of our Constitution and the meaning of democracy in the midst of their poverty and suffering. Some have come to believe, like Aristotle, that our widespread state of poverty and underdevelopment is now being perpetuated by a defective democracy. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr L W GREYLING: Speaker, today is a day to celebrate democracy. It is a day to recognise how democracy has enhanced the lives of citizens around the world who are fortunate enough to live in democratic countries. It is also a time to show solidarity with those people in the world who are still fighting, sometimes in tremendous adversity, to instil democracy in their own countries.

In South Africa we can take pride in the birth of our own democracy 16 years ago and the freedom from the racial oppression that it brought about. As we do that, we need to ask ourselves some serious questions about the current state of our democracy and the challenges that it currently faces.

Although the structure of our democracy is in place, it risks being hollowed out through the gradual closing down of spaces in which true democratic debate can take place.

The Protection of Information Bill and the proposed media tribunal are just two examples in which transparency and free expression are being threatened by the ANC. Parliament, as the ultimate expression of our democracy, also needs to be reformed in line with the recommendations put forward by the Independent Review Panel.

In addition, the influence of money continues to eat away at our democratic structures as conflicts of interests regarding Ministers, and even the ruling party itself, make a mockery of good governance principles.

If we were serious about strengthening our democracy, then we would use this day to commit to finally putting in place the long overdue legislation to regulate the private funding of political parties. It is what our democracy and the voters deserve. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mrs B N DLULANE: Speaker, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers present, and hon members, our fourth democratic Parliament was installed on the basis of both its constitutional obligations and the ANC Election Manifesto which promised that, “working together we can do more”. Informed by the 52nd National Conference of the ANC, our internationalist perspective is informed by human solidarity, enhancing democracy, equity and social and economic justice.

This informs our practice here in Parliament, in terms of our international activities, and it locates the operations of the ANC squarely in the national effort to ensure that all of us, bound together by common patriotism, will rise together with a singular sense of purpose in pursuit of the agenda outlined by the President in his state of the nation address in February this year.

In rising to this challenge we should never miss the opportunity to look back and learn from our successes and setbacks in our endeavours to remain focused on our goal for a better life for all. We must also frankly assess our capacity against the weight of rising expectations.

Speaker, this Parliament has participated in these structures and continues to do so in various forums. The Regional Women’s Parliamentary Forum was established as an organ of the Southern African Development Community Parliamentary Forum, SADC-PF, with the purpose of providing a framework to follow up on the political commitments regarding the participation and representation of women in decision-making positions. The caucus comprises the chairpersons of the national women’s parliamentary caucuses and was launched in 2002.

In July 2009 I, on behalf of this Parliament, formed part of a delegation of an advocacy mission to observe the elections in Botswana together with fellow women parliamentarians from Zambia and Namibia. The observations, findings and recommendations of the mission were submitted to the regional caucus and the SADC-PF. The 27th plenary session of SADC-PF was held this year. As Chairperson of the Multiparty Women’s Caucus, I represented this Parliament and presented a report on the establishment and functioning of the women’s caucus in Parliament.

The Inter-Parliamentary Union, IPU, established the Co-ordinating Committee of Women Parliamentarians in April 1990 to present all of the IPU’s women members. The co-ordinating committee aims to promote an increase in the number of women parliamentarians as delegates to the inter-parliamentary meetings and greater participation of women Members of Parliament in all senior posts of the union.

This structure has achieved a lot in respect of the improvement of the status of women and with regard to contributions made by women in the IPU structures.

The structures I have mentioned above have been created to ensure that democracy, fairness, transparency and the rule of law are maintained. It is for us as Members of Parliament to educate ourselves about what these organisations aim to achieve and what our contributions are supposed to be in furthering the aims of these structures.

The Multiparty Women’s Caucus in this Parliament is currently involved in discussions on the strategic programme that would guide its work. Among the activities being considered, the women’s caucus is also looking at the discussion on the SADC Protocol on Gender and Equality; training of women Members of Parliament on budgeting; and creating networks with women’s forums in other legislatures within the country and internationally, and also civil society movements focusing on women issues.

The Multiparty Women’s Caucus believes that these are the responsibilities that women parliamentarians have to carry in order to ensure democracy, irrespective of party affiliation.

We will spare no effort in strengthening the progressive forums of the South, notably the Non-Aligned Movement; the Group of 77 plus China and the Africa-South America Summit; and the New Africa-Asia Strategic Partnership. These forums have demonstrated to us — some even during the difficult years of apartheid — that they can be trusted allies and partners in our struggle for a better life.

As I’m standing here, I know that South Africans, especially the leaders of the ANC, our former Speakers, Comrades Baleka Mbethe and Gwen Mahlangu, have been champions in these structures. They even led them representing South Africa as members of the ruling party.

We continue to build on the long history of our bond of friendship and solidarity between us and countries of the South. We will continue to learn from their experience, especially how, in spite of the colonial history that they share with us, they managed to transform into the tigers that some of them are today.

We will also continue to strengthen people-to-people contact and cultural exchanges between us and the South, and use our bilateral relations and structures such as the India, Brazil, South Africa Dialogue Forum, Ibsa, to intensify exchanges between us in areas of mutual benefit. I thank you. [Applause.]

The SPEAKER: Hon members, before I invite the next speaker, I want to point out that the gallery is full today, and I would like to welcome all those who have joined us.

I also want to point out that the public in the gallery have come to listen to today’s debate on democracy, but the debate is being drowned out by the noise from the gallery. May I please appeal to all of you to speak with no voice. Remain silent until the speakers are done.

Mr S Z NTAPANE: Mr Speaker, hon members of the Cabinet present here, hon members and members of the public in the gallery, South Africa is signatory to and an active participant in a high number of international forums and initiatives. This is the result of our unique diplomatic position since the peaceful transition to democracy, and also because of our unique experience with some of the most difficult challenges facing mankind today. Looking to the future and where our focus should be, I would like to highlight three areas of importance. Firstly, South Africa’s continued leadership role in Africa, especially in peacekeeping and negotiation, must be strengthened. At the moment our leadership is often characterised by commitments that are not backed up by the correct capacity and skills. More than ever, the ability of the SA National Defence Force to properly fulfil the peacekeeping duties that are assigned to it requires urgent attention.

Secondly, South Africa must continue to build a global consensus on environmental treaties, recognising that the sustainable, respectful treatment of the environment is a prerequisite for human rights. Currently South Africa is particularly well placed to influence the debate, since the next round of negotiations after Copenhagen is scheduled to take place on our shores in 2011. This presents us with the opportunity to demonstrate our prowess at negotiating by securing an international consensus that will see our children inheriting a planet that is still capable of sustaining human life.

Thirdly, South Africa finds itself in a contradictory position when it comes to the issue of the arms proliferation. On the one hand we are the only nation in the world to have voluntarily dismantled all nuclear weapons programmes. Potentially, this makes us the foremost arbiters for non- nuclear proliferation.

Unfortunately, on the other hand, even after the advent of democracy, our record of trading in conventional weapons is very questionable. The proliferation of arms in the world is a direct threat to building an international culture of human rights. It is vital that South Africa clears up this contradiction in its behaviour.

In conclusion, I would like to appeal for greater consistency in favour of human rights from our representatives on the United Nations Security Council. As a democracy, it does great harm to our reputation when we are seen to be supportive of governments that abuse and violate human rights. I thank you.

Mrs C DUDLEY: Hon Speaker, uppermost in our minds, at this time, must be the Millennium Development Goals. This is especially so as two-thirds of the deadline has already passed and Goal 4, which commits us to reducing child mortality by two-thirds, is proving to be extremely problematic. Instead of going down, child mortality statistics are, in fact, going up.

If you are expecting a baby either in the O R Tambo district or the Eastern Cape generally, there is a terrifying likelihood that your baby will die at birth. At present half of all babies do.

A nurse working at an Eastern Cape hospital over the past five years said she had never come across babies dying at such an alarming rate. In addition, countless more won’t make it through their first year.

Tragically, while the situation in the Eastern Cape is particularly shocking, the reality is not far different for the majority of people throughout South Africa. Gross understaffing, unpaid debts, poor infection control, slack administration, lack of finances, pathetic management skills in our hospitals, dysfunctional referral systems, dismal ambulance services, inefficient primary health, lack of control over spending and blatant corruption leave little wonder that we are living this nightmare.

Who will care about democracy if we continue to bury our sons and daughters along with our hopes and dreams for their future? The ACDP welcomes efforts to ensure that all HIV-positive children under one year old are now being put on antiretroviral theraphy, ART, regardless of their CD4 counts.

While the department has introduced new and better guidelines for the prevention of mother-to-child transmission, MTCT, more needs to be done to ensure it reaches those who are affected and at risk.

While the tragically high number of baby deaths in hospitals is linked to overcrowding at hospitals as the needs of people with HIV/Aids place hospitals under enormous pressure, budgets are not the only concern; attitude, training, discipline and good practice are just as critical. Public-private initiatives are not being pursued with enough urgency and determination.

The ACDP calls on government to access and utilise private expertise to deliver the services with and on behalf of the state. If we do not get this right as other countries have, moves to implement a National Health Insurance will only further exacerbate the situation. I thank you.

Mr M C MANANA: Chairperson, hon members of the House, distinguished guests, my speech in this debate on the International Day of Democracy will underscore the democratic values, human rights and international co- operation under the India-Brazil-South Africa Dialogue Forum and our Parliament’s relationship with the European Union, EU.

This will be done against the background of the ANC’s policy on international relations and human solidarity. It is most appropriate that we are celebrating the International Day of Democracy in the month in which, here in South Africa, we are celebrating our national heritage.

At the core of our national heritage, as a people, is a long struggle for democracy, recognition and respect for diverse cultures, languages and traditions bounded by our ideals of a unitary South African nation that is democratic, nonracist, nonsexist and based on equity.

At the heart of this heritage is the leadership role that the ANC, as one of the oldest liberation movements on the continent, has played as it approaches its centenary celebrations. Since its formation, the ANC’s mission is the struggle for democracy and human rights as understood within the context of the national democratic revolution. We recognise that the achievements of political freedom and democracy in 1994 did not automatically translate into economic democracy and justice.

There exists in our country huge socioeconomic disparities and inequalities which subject the majority of our people to a life of poverty where political freedom, in the final analysis, loses it significance. These disparities and inequalities are a characteristic feature of our current globalised world.

It is these global inequalities and economic injustice that inform our continued struggle for a better life for all and a vision of a better Africa and a just world, as is articulated in the policies of the ANC.

It is these policies and vision that informs the ANC government’s policies on international relations and, as such, our understanding of the significance of celebrating democracy and human rights. As South Africans, coming out of a long struggle, we have an opportunity and privilege to celebrate our democratic achievement and gains. We must also use this democratic space to advance our struggle to deepen beyond mere political democracy.

We need to take this beyond the confines of our national borders and build international human solidarity. The recognition of this internationalism around democracy and human rights is fully expressed in the strategy and tactics of the ANC. They encompass the fact that the achievement of democracy in 1994 provided South Africans with an opportunity to build democracy, a culture of human rights and a value system based on human solidarity, and to work with African and global progressive forces to advance human development in our country, on the continent and across the globe.

The ANC government’s approach to international relations and to democracy and human rights must therefore be underpinned by these ideals. It must be informed by our principles of a better life for all and a vision of a better Africa and a just world. It is on the basis of this understanding that we must place a priority on establishing and building our relations with other countries of the South.

The building of South-South relations should not only be seen in terms of economic and national self-interest, but as part of advancing our common ideals of building a world based on economic democracy and justice. It is also about our commitment to rid the world of inequalities and poverty, and by so doing, deepening democracy and human rights.

India-Brazil-South Africa, Ibsa, is a trilateral, developmental initiative that promotes South-South dialogue, co-operation and common positions on issues of international importance; facilitates trade and investment opportunities between the three countries; supports the alleviation of poverty and social development in developing countries; and promotes the trilateral exchange of information, international best practice technologies and skills amongst the three countries.

The South Africa-European Union, SA-EU, trade relations represent a bilateral interaction on South-North co-operation that has seen growth in South Africa’s export, but also reinforces a system of global dominance in trade relations that has a negative impact on African countries as illustrated in the EU’s relations with developing blocs.

There is another inconsistency in the application of human rights in the EU support for a genocide warrant of arrest issued by the International Criminal Court, ICC, against the President of Sudan. The African Union has taken a position of nonco-operation with the warrant for war crimes and crimes against humanity issued by the ICC on President Omar Al-Bashir and made an appeal to the UN to delay the case against him.

Hon Mokgalapa, South Africa supports the AU’s decision precisely because there is a provision in terms of article 15 of the Rome Statute that allows for a deferral. We are saying: Let us defer the matter so that we are able to ensure that the people of Southern Sudan are able to realise the referendum next year. That is what we are saying.

We could easily have subjected President de Klerk and his government to the same process in 1990, but instead we negotiated with him, and look at where we are today! That is the point. [Applause.]

You cannot prosecute Al-Bashir whilst he still has a very big role to play in terms of realising this particular referendum. You cannot do that. [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Hon member, you should address the Chair, not any other person in the House. Just address the Chair. [Applause.]

Mr M C MANANA: I thought I should clarify that, Chair. But also … [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Do not clarify it. Address the Chair. [Laughter.]

Mr M C MANANA: Through you Chair, on the issue of Myanmar, hon Mokgalapa … [Laughter.] … should not misinform this House about our vote in the UN. He must refer to the records. We said that this matter should not be dealt with at the level of the UN Security Council; instead, it should go to the Human Rights Commission in the UN. That is what we said. [Applause.]

It is within this context that our people’s Parliament remains an embodiment of the society based on democratic values, social justice and fundamental human rights. If people want to speak about human rights in Africa, they must not be selective. Here is Western Sahara, violating human rights, why are you not mentioning that? I thank you. [Applause.]

Mrs I C DITSHETELO: Speaker, democracy is an ideal that speaks to members of society having control over rules and policies, treating each other as equals and being treated as equals. As a country we have impressively laid out a legal framework guaranteeing people’s rights, but there are further questions that we need to ask ourselves to determine whether the ideal of democracy has been realised.

The following questions are asked: Are our governing institutions representative of and accountable to the people? Do we have an active civil society and are we empowering it without manipulation? Do our political parties articulate the views and aspirations of the people?

We have taken tremendous strides as a young democracy, but we also cannot afford to be complacent because the equality ideal is so far from being realised and without it democracy remains a distant ideal. Thank you, Mr Speaker. [Applause.]

Mrs D A SCHÄFER: Speaker, the biggest commitment, both nationally and internationally, to democracy and human rights that we have made as a country is agreeing to and passing into law the Constitution in 1996. At that stage we committed ourselves to upholding a democratic system of government, and our Constitution was lauded all over the world as being one of the most liberal in the area of human rights.

Today we need to look at the progress we have made in upholding that commitment. I am afraid that there are alarm bells ringing louder and louder which indicates that the significant achievement of bringing about democratic government in our country is under threat.

Firstly, in a democratic government the goal is to open up windows of opportunity for everyone. However, we have succeeded in opening the gates of opportunism for some only — think of Travelgate, Oilgate and Armsgate, to name but a few.

Secondly, undisputed essentials of a democracy are freedom of speech and expression and a free press. Recent events have shown that the current government has de facto rewritten section 16 of the Bill of Rights to read as follows: Everyone has the right to freedom of expression, except if you happen to make gestures at the President that his blue light brigade regards as inappropriate, or if you happen to expose alleged underhand dealings of the National Police Commissioner. At the same time the right to privacy, and not to have one’s home searched and the privacy of one’s communications infringed, must also give way in the above circumstances.

Freedom of the media enshrined in section 16(1)(a) of the Bill of Rights is regarded as an unnecessary evil when it is used to expose the myriad examples of corruption, lack of service delivery and grossly wasteful expenditure of so many in our government. Of course, it is very difficult to tell exactly what our President really feels about the matter, as his statements differ depending on his audience.

In this very House, last week, the President tried to justify the ANC’s insistence that media censorship is necessary and that the law of defamation is not sufficient to protect the poor people in this country who cannot afford to take the media to court. Then at a meeting with media representatives last Friday, he said that the government is committed to a free press as enshrined in our Constitution, but that we need to guard against “foreign spies”. In Monday’s newspapers we see that the ANC is concerned that whistleblowers are undermining them. We can understand the President’s paranoia regarding spies, given what is going on in his own party, but we would love the President to give us examples of these countless poor people who are defamed and need this drastic government intervention.

Mr Speaker, we are not fooled. The media tribunal is to protect the ANC and its cronies, and no-one else. [Laughter.] And here’s a novel thought: If the ANC conducted itself in a way that was beyond reproach, there would be nothing to expose, now would there?

Thirdly, other essential pillars of democratic government are the independence of the judiciary and the separation of powers. When a political party has to take court action resulting from a judge conducting a political witch-hunt at the behest of the most senior member of a provincial executive, then we are treading on dangerous ground — even more so when that member of the executive is held in such high esteem by the ruling party that he now represents our country as an ambassador in one of the most influential countries of the world.

When a premier has to go to court to enforce her constitutional right to be part of a committee discussing the alleged interference of a High Court judge in a Constitutional Court case, we are quite justified in assuming that the said commission is taking into account considerations that are not based on judicial principles. And this is the very commission that is supposed to be choosing independent judges!

Of course, the fact that the premier won both court actions is a positive sign that there are still judges who are independent, but it appears that they are becoming fewer and fewer.

A vital part of an independent judicial system is the impartiality of the National Director of Public Prosecutions and its ability to exercise its constitutional mandate without fear, favour or prejudice. The ousting of Vusi Pikoli as the National Director of Public Prosecutions, NDPP, in favour of a man who has proven himself unfit in every respect other than having the distinguished qualification of being a supporter of Jacob Zuma, goes to show just how far the President will go to protect himself and his cronies from criminal charges, and the disdain with which he regards our democracy when it does not suit his purposes.

Fourthly, the ongoing assault on property rights enshrined in the Constitution is causing untold damage to our democracy, not to mention our economy, and the more uncertainty there is, the less productivity and the less external investment we shall see. It is a lose-lose situation.

So, Mr Speaker, at the moment we are unfortunately in serious danger of losing all the ground we have gained since the advent of democracy. It is the responsibility of each one of us to stand up for the democratic principles for which so many fought for so long and which can so quickly be destroyed by the short-sighted actions of people whose own interests are their only priority. If we do not do this, we will not have a future worth thinking about. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Speaker, hon Ministers, hon members and members of the public in the gallery, firstly, I just want to say that it seems as if members who are participating internationally, particularly those from the opposition, really do not understand why they should be part and parcel of those bilaterals that we are having.

I also want to highlight the issue of Zimbabwe that was raised by hon Mokgalapa. The hon member was part and parcel of the delegation that went to Botswana last year to celebrate the very same day. He had a platform to speak in that conference and didn’t mention what he was saying today.

In fact, the way he was discussing the issues, nobody believed that he had come from an opposition party. Judging by the way he was stating the issues, it was clear that he was either a member of the ANC or a member of South Africa. [Interjections.]

I’m not dreaming. I know that he has to please certain members of the opposition today. [Interjections.] [Applause.] But I also want to indicate from the outset that whenever we attend these international forums, nobody speaks like a member of an opposition party because we have agreed that when we go, we go as a South African delegation. [Interjections.]

I was very surprised today because some of the members of the opposition came and knocked at my office with the understanding that I am the one who decides on the delegation. Unfortunately I am not. I just request the members from their Chief Whips. It is their Chief Whips who allocate the members to the delegation, so they must never again come to my office to ask me to negotiate on their behalf so that they can be part of the delegation. [Interjections.]

I think the hon members from the opposition must understand the sovereignty of each and every country. As South Africa, we can share views and ideas on how we achieved democracy and it’s up to those countries to decide on how they should achieve the same in their own countries. In terms of the diplomacy in Zimbabwe, today Zimbabwe has a government of unity.

In 1994 when the ANC was voted in by the people of this country, even though it got an absolute majority, we catered for other political parties to be part of the Government of National Unity so that, at the end of the day, they can understand whom we are talking about when we talk about the majority of this country. Today they are here in the opposition benches because the ANC has allowed them to be recognised as opposition members. [Interjections.] If it was not for the ANC, you would not even be opening your mouths this time. [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order, order, hon members!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): In terms of the diplomacy in Zimbabwe, today I can say there is peace in Zimbabwe because the three political parties are working together. [Interjections.] Yes, you can say it is rubbish. However, the member from the DA who serves in the SADC Parliamentary Forum cannot say that because he was part and parcel of the SADC Parliamentary Forum that was addressed by President Robert Mugabe. Later it was addressed by Prime Minister Tsvangirai. All of them were saying that they are very happy about the way South Africa, particularly the ANC, has led them to that government of unity. [Applause.]

It is surprising because some of the members used to say nobody wants to go to Zimbabwe. But when we were going to Zimbabwe and Zambia, all the flights were fully booked. Even the hotels were fully booked, and there were a lot of members who were there touring in Zimbabwe and Zambia. But today you come here and I do not know on whose behalf you are speaking. [Interjections.]

Let me advise the hon Greyling that …

Mr S B FARROW: Speaker, would the hon member take a question about Zimbabwe?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): After I have finished I will take the question.

Hon members, I want to remind hon Greyling regarding the issue of the report by the independent experts. I think the hon member must not assign the responsibility to the executive. That report is supposed to be discussed by this Parliament, and the members of this Parliament have to implement the recommendations from that report.

It is the responsibility of this House to do the oversight over the executive, therefore what he must understand is that whenever one points a finger at other people, the other fingers are pointing at him or herself. [Interjections.]

With regard to the issue of the media tribunal, the ANC has come up with a proposal that this issue must be investigated. I don’t know where you got the information that we have already decided, because we said we need to investigate. [Interjections.]

I think people must understand the policies of the ANC and how we debate issues in the ANC. Everybody has a right to say something in the ANC, unlike in other political parties. [Interjections.] That’s the unfortunate part of it.

In terms of the subject that we were dealing with today, I just want to mention the achievements, because of my time limit, that we have attained as Parliament. One, we were able to have International Women’s Day and Africa Day celebrations. As Parliament we were also able to hold a joint Parliamentary Group on International Relations, PGIR, and focus group workshops where members reported on what they have been discussing in those international forums.

We also had a training workshop on the SADC Parliamentary Forum, SADC-PF, election observation mission. We also had a women’s parliament on millennium development goals which is part and parcel of the international programme. We also had bilaterals with various countries during the Inter- Parliamentary Union, IPU, and SADC-PF.

These bilaterals are part and parcel of promoting human rights and democracy. I believe that in future we will continue to formally establish parliament-to-parliament relations in order to make sure that the continent and the world finally achieve peace and stability.

I also want to highlight the issue of the Inter-Parliamentary Union, IPU, and the United Nations. As Parliament we participate in that structure and we have members that attended the IPU-UN forum. In that forum the International Monetary Fund, IMF, and the World Bank gave a briefing on their intentions on the transformation of these institutions.

I also want to highlight the way that the members who attended that forum deliberated on the matter, including hon George from the DA. Members from other countries proposed to the Speaker that they want to come to South Africa to learn how we are dealing with issues of oversight. [Interjections.] That is why we have always received a lot of members from various countries who have come to learn about what we are doing in South Africa.

I want to thank all members who participated in these international forums for working together as a South African delegation. I also thank the South African embassies for their warm welcome and hospitality which they gave to our delegates. I want to say to this House, before I sit down, that there is a member that I have not seen smiling in this House. But when we were in Thailand, it was a first for me to see that at least the member has teeth! [Laughter.] Today matters related to trade, peace and security, climate change and human rights, to name a few, need to be addressed by our Parliament so that we do not diminish the gains made in achieving social cohesion and good governance.

I am not going to name and shame that person because the Speaker knows exactly who that member is. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Speaker, I rise on a point of order in terms of Rule 66.

In the course of this debate, the hon Mrs Schäfer, referring to the National Director of Public Prosecutions, indicated that he is not fit to hold office. Now, in terms of Rule 66, no member of this House may reflect upon the honour or competence of a judge of a superior court or the holder of any other office whose removal is dependent upon this House, except upon a substantive motion. I request that she withdraws those comments.

The SPEAKER: Hon member, I will check the Hansard and I will come back with a ruling on that matter.

Debate concluded.

                      QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY
                           SOCIAL SERVICES
                              Cluster 2

MINISTERS:

Position regarding (i) commitment to principle of no work, no pay and (ii) impact of educators’ strike on operations of education departments

1. Mr J R B Lorimer (DA) asked the Minister of Basic Education:

   (1) Whether, with reference to the recent educators strike, she remains committed to the principle of no work, no pay; if not, why not; if so, how will this be enforced;

 (2)   what impact has the strike had on the operations of both the
        national and provincial departments?               NO3101E

The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Speaker, the question is about the recent strikes and whether a “no work, no pay” rule will be enforced. The answer is that the “no work, no pay” rule is a policy of government and is administered by the Minister for the Public Service and Administration. We are aware that the Minister will implement the policy through Treasury. It, therefore, is not dependent upon me; it is government policy. It will be implemented.

To answer the question of whether the strike has had any effect on departments, I should say yes. Indeed, it has affected the national and provincial departments in different ways. In some provinces we had an 80% shutdown, while in others we had a 20% shutdown; so it did affect them, but the situation differed from province to province. In areas where there was a total semishutdown of the head offices and no operations could take place, the districts had to operate from somewhere and this resulted in valuable school days being lost.

The national department only closed the section which deals with matric certificates; all other sections were working. We closed that section deliberately because we did not want to risk anybody interfering with the matric certificates. Thank you.

Mr J R B LORIMER: Mr Speaker, apart from the South African Democratic Teachers’ Union’s, opposition to “no work, no pay”, that union continues to hold education hostage through intimidation.

I want to read you five points from a statement by a teacher at Johannesburg’s Northview High School, after Sadtu representatives Tshabalala and Mokgomane addressed the staff yesterday afternoon:

Now, Sadtu said principals of model C schools deliberately employ foreigners, namely Zimbabweans, because they will not strike. They said Sadtu will deal with Zimbabweans. No district officials are to be allowed onto school property, certainly not to check files.

Staff are not accountable to officials. If the Northview principal is not in agreement, Sadtu will come and take over the running of the school. Teachers have only to do seven hours of work. For any work over and above that they should be paid extra. Everyone is to give full marks to themselves for the Integrated Quality Management System and the heads of department, must sign, otherwise Sadtu will deal with them.

Will the Minister investigate this and all other cases of Sadtu intimidation, and how and when will these incidents be investigated? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, let me just direct myself to the question and not to the other stories, because I have not heard about them.

We investigate any complaint referred to us. So bring the complaint and we will investigate it as soon we get it. I can’t work on the basis of rumours or things that I hear from the air. Bring that complaint; we will investigate it. Definitely! [Applause.]

Mr D C SMILES: Chairperson, I would like to ask the hon Minister whether she will please give us her opinion of Sadtu and their behaviour during the strike, as it is quite clear that Sadtu is responsible for the violence and intimidation that has done so much to worsen the impact of the strike. I would like to refer once again to the letter that was read by my colleague, outlining what has happened at Northview. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, the member wants my personal opinion of Sadtu. My personal opinion is that Sadtu is a strong organisation. We have the advantage of having very strong organisations in the public sector. Communication moves quickly, so there are strong points around it. So from where I stand, I do appreciate all teacher organisations, including Sadtu, the role they play and the co-operation we get from them on an ongoing basis. I appreciate Naptosa and all of them because we do have very constructive working relationships. So that is my answer to the question.

However, when it comes to violence by strikers – not necessarily Sadtu, by anybody – we condemn it. I have condemned it. I will condemn it from Sadtu and from Naptosa, so I don’t have to say that I condemn Sadtu. I condemn all violent acts in the public sector.

But you want to know what I think about Sadtu? Like all other unions, Sadtu plays a valuable role in the Public Service. [Applause.]

Ms F I CHOHAN: Chairperson, Madam Minister, there have, however, been reports that some individuals within the department have been engaging in activities to destroy records that reflect the attendance of workers during the strike. In the light of these reports, clearly some delays can be expected with regard to the issue of the docking of pay.

Are the Minister and the department able to give an assurance to this House that the docking of pay will not be delayed beyond the end of this year? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, salaries are being docked every time we get the information. We have been informed by the Public Service that, to date, 26 000 members have already had their salaries docked. So it does not have to wait for anything.

As soon as information is completed it is finalised and then the docking starts. So it will start when the documents have been gleaned and verified and we are sure that we are docking from the right person for the right days. The docking starts any time. It has already started.

Mrs M T KUBAYI: Chairperson, on a point of order: I note that it is at the discretion of the Chairperson to select speakers. But can I say that, based on the convention of the House and how we have been doing things, you cannot allow three members of the DA to ask questions on the same question and not give other parties an opportunity. Can we request that you give other parties an opportunity?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Hon member, I am aware of the convention. I was simply following the list because I was not in at that time. I am following the list which is in front of me. The next one on my list is hon A M Motshekga. [Interjections.]

Ms F I CHOHAN: Chairperson, I think the point that is being made is that the DA has already been afforded two opportunities on this particular question, and if you would kindly cast your eyes around the House, you will see various members waving their papers …

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): The hon A M Mpontshane.

Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, on a point of order: You have already recognised hon Smiles. I don’t understand how you can go back on your ruling.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): I know, but if he had taken the opportunity first, then I think we need to be fair to other members.

Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, with due respect, you have recognised hon Smiles. The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): I did, and I also recognised my mistake. Could you take your seat, hon member? There are more questions coming.

Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, we did not think that you had made a mistake; we were actually applauding your decision! [Laughter.]

Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Chairperson, during the recent talks which the hon Minister had with teacher union representatives, the unions linked the policy of “no work, no pay” to the department’s recovery plan. In other words, teachers’ willingness to teach during the September holidays was conditional. Either they get overtime payment for the time worked over the holidays, or the department offsets the overtime payments which unions want against deductions for “no work, no pay”. What is the position in this regard?

The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, babuMpontshane, that was the initial issue that we suspected unions wanted — that the recovery plan was to recover their salaries, whereas for us the recovery plan was about the recovery of lost time.

I did meet with them. We agreed that the recovery plan is going to be informed by the needs. We agreed at national level that for the September holidays, for instance, we will only focus on matriculants because that is where we think there is an urgent need. We will not have a decision from the national level to have a recovery plan from Grade R to Grade 12. The recovery plan is informed by what our needs are.

We will then look at what we need in the primary phases. We have agreed that we want to focus on numeracy and literacy. Therefore we will only employ teachers on the basis of those needs and in an attempt to close the deficit.

So, in short, I am saying we have clarified the situation and I think there is a common understanding that the recovery plan is going to be based on and informed by needs. It is not going to be informed by teachers’ need to get their salaries back. I had a meeting with the MECs and I think we have a common understanding that the two things should be delinked.

Position regarding (i) monitoring of schools during recent strike and (ii) incidents of physical violence and arrests

1. Mr D A Kganare (Cope) asked the Minister of Basic Education:

   Whether, in the course of the recent strike, her department continuously monitored all schools to ensure that both the learners and non-striking educators remained safe; if not, why not; if so, (a) how many incidents of physical violence were reported and (b) how many culprits were arrested? NO3143E

The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, the question is whether we continuously monitored the safety of learners during the strike; and the answer is yes, indeed. The department, working quite closely with the Department of Police, intelligence, army and all the related departments, even justice, were constantly monitoring the schools. So, government had set up a national strike council and there were also provincial strike councils.

There was a joint operation as well as provincial operations both at national and provincial level, which worked together with the Department of Defence, National Intelligence and the SAPS. They did gather information of where areas were volatile and sent in forces to ensure that those areas that were not safe would be reported. In addition, there was also monitoring on the functionality of schools with particular emphasis on attendance and safety.

The questioner also wanted to know as to what were the incidents that were reported in the information received by the department. Because information on violence was collected by the police most of the information lies with the Department of Police.

All what we did was to report where we knew there were threats and the police would deal with those matters. This is incomplete, because most of the information lies with the police.

In the Western Cape we did get a report that there was an incident of violence. We also got a report from North West that there were incidents of violence, but I am aware that there were more incidents of intimidation and violence. The information on all of those were collected by the police because they were treated as criminal activities and therefore the department would not have been involved in areas where there was violence and intimidation. Those were treated as criminal activities and the police are dealing with those matters.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Hon Minister, let me appeal to you not to press the button there, because you are making my work difficult here. I will call upon you when you answer the supplementary question, otherwise leave the button alone. Is there any supplementary question?

Mr D A KGANARE: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, it is a well-known fact that when there is industrial action the labour movement will do everything within its power to put pressure on the employer to make sure that its demands are met. And this will, amongst other things, result in some intimidation.

On the other hand, it is a responsibility of the employers to make sure that productivity continues and that they take certain precautionary measures. Freedom of association by implication entails the right not to associate, so my question is what proactive measures did the department take to ensure that those who did not want to go on strike are allowed to go to work so that they do not get punished by not being paid when they did want to go to work? The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, hon Kganare, we announced that we had not closed the schools, so we did imply that anybody who wanted to go to work should go to work.

Schools were not closed. People who wanted to go to school would have been able to go to school, but in incidents where we picked up violence, where members felt that they were unable to risk their lives, there were measures put in place to enable them to report and work with the districts for purposes of safety.

So, we did all we could and the schools were open. That is why schools that were not threatened by serious violence were able to continue. And those that were unable to continue because there were incidents that made them felt unsafe therefore did not attend school.

They did communicate with the district, that would then make sure from the police that it was indeed not viable for them to attend schools. So, there were measures put in place to do exactly what you understand was supposed to have happened.

Ms N GINA: Chairperson, in some cases, Minister, the acts of intimidation and that of physical violence were reported and in some cases it was reported within the school premises. So, I think from this strike action we have learned some lessons — that in some of our schools we need to intensify the security. What plans do you have in your department to make sure that all our schools are safe and that the security is being intensified so that we can be sure that schools are places of safety?

The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, the question of school safety is a broader issue than the strike. I think the hon member would be quite aware that on an ongoing basis, as a department, we are incrementally increasing security in our schools to make sure that we protect our learners both from internal and external threats.

We fence schools, put up CCTV cameras and take all sorts of necessary measures that we require to make sure that indeed schools are safe. The fact that there were strikes again was an internal security matter, and again we did put measures in place. However, they are not necessarily for strikes, which are a rare occurrence.

I mean, the last time we had strikes was in 2007, but the security is meant to protect them on a daily basis. And we do have a programme of schools safety, as I say, both against physical harm and other forms of activities that may harm our learners and teachers. We have a programme.

Dr W G JAMES: Chairperson, it may come as a measure of relief to the hon Nzimande that this is the first occasion that I have the honour to address Minister Motshekga as the Minister of Basic Education as the official opposition spokesperson on basic education.

The question that I would like to ask is whether the department, through the various vehicles that she has, including Minmec, would provide resources to schools to provide for counselling for individuals who were intimidated and harmed during the strike?

I visited a school this morning, as a matter of fact, in Durban, Lindelani, and there were clear indications that many individuals were harmed during the strike. Therefore, I believe that it is the responsibility of her department to see to it that measures be taken to provide resources for counselling for them.

The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, the question of the wellbeing of teachers definitely falls squarely within the provincial competencies. My assumption is that indeed provinces - because every province has a section dealing with the wellness of educators and the employees in the provinces - through their wellness programme should be able to provide the counselling services.

It is a function which is definitely a provincial competence, but if we are requested to do it as national I am sure we can look at it. But it is something for which we have no structures on behalf of provinces because the wellbeing of teachers is catered for by provinces that would have a wellness programme for staff in the national departments. So this is a provincial competency and I assume that all provinces do have that programme.

Position regarding steps to (i) ensure that FET colleges attract more    students and (ii) change perceptions regarding inferior qualifications

1. Mrs F F Mushwana (ANC) asked the Minister of Higher Education and Training:

   What steps will he take to (a) ensure that the further education and training (FET) colleges attract more students and (b) change the perception that they offer inferior qualifications? NO3123E

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Thank you, Chairperson, and thanks to hon member Mushwana for this question. We want to say that, as a department, we do agree with the fact that there is a general belief across our communities that FET colleges deliver programmes and qualifications that are significantly inferior in quality compared to those offered by universities.

This is a perception that has developed over a long time, and we are committed to changing it. We are making several efforts and interventions to change this perception; I will mention only a few here in response to this question.

First of all, this year the Department of Higher Education and Training has already held three summits — the Higher Education Summit, FET Colleges Summit and a Skills Summit. Part of the strategy of holding these summits was to involve all stakeholders so that, amongst other things, we create cohesion between these institutions that constitute the Department of Higher Education and Training landscape.

In addition to that, what we have also put at the centre of our work, as part of improving the functionality of the colleges, is that there needs to be high articulation between FET colleges and universities so that kids who take programmes in FET colleges are also able to proceed to university if they choose to do so — something that is not systematised at the moment.

Furthermore, within the next few weeks we will be finalising the National Skills Development Strategy 3. One of the things that we have put into that strategy is that we must strengthen the relationship between the sector education and training authorities, Setas, and FET college, as well as the relationship with the employers, so that ideally, in the medium to long term, every FET college student is able to get workplace experience.

This is one of the biggest problems that we face. We think that with some of these measures we will be able to improve the attractiveness of the FET college sector. This will be in addition to the mobilising that we, as government, will continue to do to engage our communities.

Lastly, the FET Summit also focused on very critical issues around how we can revive and strengthen the FET college sector, including improving teaching and learning, efficiency, governance, financial management, as well as preparations for 2011, so that we can start next year on a sounder footing. Thank you.

Mrs F F MUSHWANA: Thank you, Minister, for your informative response. However, there will be a need for effective implementation for efforts made to be realised. Is there a clear plan, with time frames, linked to specific implementers for monitoring and support? We welcome both of the summits held - FET and skills - but is there a plan in place for advocacy workshops to ensure that proposals from both summits are realised? Thank you. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Thank you, hon member. We definitely do have a plan. For instance, already, on 8 October, I will be receiving a briefing from the steering committee that was responsible for the FET Summit on the resolutions of this summit, and how we then begin to translate them into implementable policies. In addition, we have also set ourselves the deadline of the end of October to have visited all 50 FET colleges to look at their capacities and their needs as well as programmes that are strong, as part of underlining the necessity for expanding the FET college sector as well as making sure that it begins to respond positively to our entire strategy of skills development.

Lastly, what we have decided is that we should continue with the steering committees that we have formed — the task teams — which have been working around the summit. This is because we want them to continue to help us with the process that we are planning, namely a thoroughgoing change management and capacity building in the FET colleges. Even hon Ellis is nodding approvingly at what I am saying. Thank you.

Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Speaker, I just need to say to the hon Blade Nzimande that I never moved my head. [Laughter.] He is lying, sir. [Laughter.]

Mr A P VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Speaker and hon Minister, at present the official position regarding the colleges for next year was stated in the document Guidelines for Operational Plans for 2011.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Is there a point of order?

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Chairperson, my sincerest apologies; I beg your indulgence. I wanted to find out from you if it is parliamentary for a member to say to another member that he is lying?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): He is what?

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Lying. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Which member said that to whom?

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: He can stand up and identify himself; he knows who he is. It is hon Ellis.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Hon members, please let us regulate ourselves. Let us not impugn the integrity of other members deliberately. Hon member, continue.

Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, I did say that the hon Blade Nzimande was lying. And I …

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Hon Ellis, please take your seat.

Mr M J ELLIS: Sit down?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Yes.

Mr M J ELLIS: Okay, thanks. [Laughter.] [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Hon member, continue.

Mr A P VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you, Mr Chair; it is clear that you don’t want hon Ellis to withdraw his words. [Laughter.] Hon Minister, the official position …

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): House Chair, it is a point of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): There is a point of order here.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): House Chairperson, hon Mike Ellis is a Whip and he was part of the drafting and the adoption of the Rules of this House. I want hon Mike Ellis to withdraw what he said, that hon Nzimande is lying. It is not parliamentary. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Hon Ellis, do the right thing, please. Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, I was going to withdraw until you told me to sit down. [Laughter.] However, under the circumstances, sir, I withdraw and apologise to the hon Blade Nzimande. He is certainly not a liar, sir, but sometimes he does not quite tell the truth. [Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Hon Ellis, that is why I said you should sit down, because it was doubtful whether or not you were going to withdraw that remark. [Laughter.] Please continue.

Mr A P VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Hon Minister, the official position regarding colleges for next year is stated in the document Guidelines for Operational Plans for 2011 issued by the department some two months ago, and it says:

Colleges plan to keep enrolment figures for 2011 at the same level as actual enrolments for 2010.

The same document states that the 2011 budget must be based on the approved budget for this year plus 4,5%. My question is: Is the severe capping of FET college numbers and budgets not a move backwards and in contrast with the enormous and growing demand for training in our country?

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Chairperson, if we were not in this House I would not answer a question from the DA on FET colleges. But as a disciplined member of the House I will, because we invited them to the FET College Summit.

They did not come and they did not even apologise. Maybe that is the reason why hon James has been removed from the Portfolio Committee on Higher Education and Training.

It is very frustrating that you only shout at us through the newspapers but run away from real engagement on the ground, because you want to opportunistically grandstand. Nevertheless, I will answer your question.

The issue is that what we were indicating then was that they should be patient with us whilst we were going through the processes that we were going through. This is because the FET colleges were asking us: How are we to plan for next year?

We said that there are processes in place; the one being the summit, and the second being the engagement with Treasury - so that after them we would then be able to know exactly what would happen. We do intend to expand. Especially, we want to identify those colleges that have additional capacity whilst we are putting in place other measures to actually address the many challenges that we face in the sector. Ngiyabonga. [Thank you.]

Ms N Y VUKUZA-LINDA: Thank you, House Chairperson. Dr Nzimande, I am sure you agree with me that summits are not an end in themselves, but a means to an end. I also know that you know that social cohesion cannot be achieved through summits only.

Can you then help me with this issue of articulation? By your own admission it is a problem, but could you just give me perhaps one example of how you want to articulate this whole thing of FETs to universities? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: I am sure hon Vukuza-Linda knows that I do not have to be lectured about what summits are. That is why, in my original answer, I came up with very specific things that we are going to be doing.

These summits are necessary for two reasons. First of all they enable us to get many good ideas from the stakeholders, so they are not a waste of time or just a talking shop.

Secondly, they help us to refine our implementation plan. That is why I was saying on 8 October I would be getting an implementation plan arising from the resolutions of the summits.

Okwesithathu, angithukuthele Mbazima, angithukuthele. [Uhleko.] Ngizosuke ngikubuze ukuthi ngokomthetho akufanele ngabe nilapha ningakabambi nenhlangano yenu nje. Nisibuze ngentando yeningi ningakayibambi inhlangano. [Uhleko.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Thirdly, I am not upset, Mbazima, I am really not upset. [Laughter.] In fact, I will remind you that you are not supposed to be here because you have not even held your elective conference yet. You are telling us about democracy and yet you have not held your elective conference. [Laughter.]]

On articulation, in short, what we mean is that programmes offered at FET colleges must have a relationship with the higher education sector. Take, for example, the National Certificate (Vocational), NCV. Today if you pass it at an FET college and you want to go to university you cannot, because the NCV only has one language and universities require two languages.

There are also other programmes, what we call the Nated, the N Programmes, whose articulation with universities at the moment are based on individual negotiations between universities and particular colleges. We want to make it a systemic coherent relationship that certain programmes translate into particular certificates or diplomas in terms of the Higher Education Qualification Framework. That is what we mean in short.

Ngabe ngiyaqhubeka kodwa ngiyazi ukuthi impendulo yalo mbuzo owubuzayo uyayazi. [I will be continuing, but I know that you know the answer to your question.]

Ms A MDA: On a Point of order, House Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Yes, what is the point of order?

Ms A MDA: House Chair, is it parliamentary for hon Dr Nzimande to call the hon Shilowa by his first name? Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): No, that is not parliamentary.

Ms A MDA: Can the hon Minister Nzimande withdraw that?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): No, it is not really a question of withdrawal. I think it is a question of …

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: I am sorry, Chair. It is just that he was my comrade not so long ago, but I withdraw that. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Hon Minister, sit down, please. I think it is simply a question of respect; it is a question of education. We are not supposed to call other members by their first names. We do not do that in the House. It is really a question of decorum.

Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, the IFP does not doubt your intentions about what you wish to do about FET colleges, but what is happening on the ground does discredit your intentions.

I just want to ask the Minister a specific question: Is he aware of the goings-on at the Mthashana FET College, particularly at its learning site at KwaGqikazi campus, where the entire campus has been invaded by squatters who have refused to even obey a court order to vacate the premises?

In fact, when the MEC visited the college they said to the MEC, “MEC, you must remember that the fact that we have an ANC branch in KwaNongoma is through us, therefore we do not want to move.”

Mrs M T KUBAYI: On a point of order, Chair. Is the Minister prepared to assist …

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Hon member, let us take the point of order.

Mrs M T KUBAYI: Chairperson, I think the hon member is out of order. The question that he is asking is a new question, and a substantive question that requires an answer.

Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Chair, the hon member is not the Minister. [Laughter.] It is up to the Minister to decide that.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Let us see whether or not the Minister will answer the question.

Mr A M MPONTSHANE: She is not even chairing the meeting.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Hon member, sit down. Take your seat, you have asked the question; let us see if the Minister will answer the question.

Mr A M MPONTSHANE: But I did not even finish my question due to her intervention.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Hon member, finish your question and let us hear whether or not the Minister will answer the question.

Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Chairperson, I would like to first call her to order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Hon Mpontshane, are you finished with your question? [Laughter.]

Mr A M MPONTSHANE: No, no, Chairperson. The point I want to …

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Complete the question, please.

Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Chairperson, the point that I want to make is that we must not let members deliberately disturb other members whilst they are making their points through frivolous points of order. [Laughter.] You must rule on that.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): That is why, hon member, I am saying, complete your question.

Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Hon Minister, my question is: Is the hon Minister prepared to help his counterpart in evicting those squatters who have invaded that campus? There is virtually no training taking place on the campus now.

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Chairperson, hon Kubayi was right; this is a new question that I would have to prepare for and come back with the facts.

Nevertheless, I want to say that I am very much aware of what is happening at Mthashana. For instance, I am aware of the situation of the college principal who is not at work and that there is an acting principal now.

I am also aware of the situation in KwaGqikazi which, fortunately, has also been brought to my attention by iSilo samaBandla, who has invited me to go and meet with him so that we can actually address these problems.

I am in touch with the province of KwaZulu-Natal with regard to how we will deal with this. Remember that as things stand now, as much as FET colleges are going to become a national competence, before an appropriate constitutional amendment they still remain the responsibility of the provinces.

I am, therefore, working very closely with the provinces. We already have a memorandum of agreement on how the Department of Higher Education and Training is going to relate to the provinces in relation to managing problems.

Besides that, I have not sat back. I am engaging the provinces all the time, hence the need for this audit that we want to undertake by the end of October, using these task teams that I was talking about to identify each and every problem.

Ngizoya-ke nalaphaya kuleziya zindawana, ngidlule kaMntwana uShenge ngicele itiye bese ngidlula ngiyolungisa lo msebenzi, Bab’uMpontshane, ungakhathazeki. [I will also go to those areas, get to Prince Shenge’s place to ask for tea and then go on to address that problem, hon Mpontshane — do not worry.]

Position regarding steps to ensure equal quality of education for learners in public school system and those in private schools

1. Mr A M Mpontshane (IFP) asked the Minister of Basic Education:

   (1) Whether she is taking any steps to ensure that the quality of education for learners in the public school system is equal to that of the education which is currently provided in private schools; if so, what are the relevant details; if not,

 (2)   whether she is taking any steps to narrow this quality gap to
        ensure equal education and opportunity for all learners; if not,
        why not; if so, what are the relevant details?
                                                NO3136E

The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, the question relates to the comparison between public and private schools in terms of quality. The answer is that this is something that cannot be compared, Baba uMpontshane, because there is no conclusive evidence to suggest that the quality of education provided by independent schools is better than that in public schools.

What we actually have is that 75% of the success in the sector comes from public schools. You have public schools like Westerford High, which can compare very well with any private school.

I don’t think that is the issue. We have lots of very good public schools. You have your schools like Mbilwi Secondary and Westerford High, and all of them are public schools.

You have the worst of private schools, which are your fly-by-nights. So, it is not a matter of whether it is public or private. For me, the issue is to make sure that we provide quality education for all our children across the cultural, racial and geographical sectors. That is where we have a challenge.

The main thing is that all the programmes that we are trying to put in place are really not looking at the comparison between private and public, as such. Indeed, it is a fact that in other communities and other areas we are confronted by challenges in education because of infrastructure backlogs. That is why we have the Accelerated Infrastructure Development Plan to address that.

We have problems with management and leadership in schools. Again, those are the issues that determine whether we get quality or not. It is not whether they are public or private schools. I thought I should just clarify that — that we have a number of very good public schools. It is not whether they are public or private, but it is whether we get quality or not.

The short answer is that we have, indeed, put in place a programme to address all those challenges affecting us in producing quality education for all our learners. This programme includes private schools that are registered with us but produce zero results. They may be private, but some of them get zero results; so the programme is meant to address all the challenges within the sector, whether public or private. Thank you, Chair.

Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Chairperson, firstly, I must agree with the hon Minister that there are, indeed, pockets of excellence in some of our public schools. But the growth in the number of private schools does indicate that these schools are becoming more and more important as far as the achievement of quality education is concerned.

We, in the IFP, have always argued that there is no schooling system that can be better than its teachers. For instance, I do commend the Minister’s statement two days ago in the programme where she came out very firmly and authoritatively against the disruptive activities of the Congress of South African Students, Cosas. Now, one of the factors bedevilling our education system is this excessive teacher union political activity.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Hon member, ask your question, otherwise your time is up.

Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Chairperson, when are we going to hear the same firm and authoritative statement by the Minister against what we call “political activism”, as against “professional activism”, that has come to characterise our schools? I thank you.

The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, again, it is incorrect for Baba uMpontshane to say there are pockets of excellence when our education system is predominantly public.

Private schools only make up 5% of the sector. Public schools make up more than 95% of the sector. I am saying that 75% of what we see as success in the sector comes from public schools; it is not pockets. I admit, and I agree with you, that we do have lots of challenges in other parts of the sector where we are not getting value for money. I do not think it is an issue, really. We are agreed completely on that part.

What I want to correct is the fact that, basically, our education system is public. If 95% are public schools, you cannot even compare public schools to private schools. What are you comparing between 95% and 5%? What characterises high-end public schools which charge up to R200 000? It is means, right? So, it is more often an economic factor rather than anything else that you are comparing.

You are talking about those schools which charge R200 000 and comparing them to schools like Mbilwi Secondary, which is a no-fees school and which is amongst the top ten schools in the country. So, we are really comparing things that are not comparable.

On your second point, we as a sector are also quite worried, because our system stands or falls on the feet of teachers. And if we cannot get it right there, I think we might as well just forget it. That is why we are engaging with teachers patiently and consistently, because they are going to determine whether we succeed or fail.

Where we have high success rates, even in public schools, it is because we have good principals and good teachers, not good infrastructure, necessarily.

Denron Secondary, for instance, is in the Top 10 schools. It is a rural school with nothing, but because there are good teachers and good principals, they are performing quite well.

I am spending lots of my time engaging with teachers across the sector; it is enough to say that if we are to succeed, it depends on them. We are working very closely with them, but as you say, also making sure that we begin to be very firm in terms of incorrect behaviour by teachers. If it breaks, it breaks, but we cannot have a situation which is loose and we hardly know whether we are coming or going. That, definitely, is the direction that we are taking, to say we strengthen the contradictions, and the contradictions may produce a different result, but we cannot keep a system which is unsustainable.

I have very bad teachers from other sectors, but because there is life after Parliament, we have to work with them as colleagues. I am sorry, Chair. Thank you. That is the answer. [Time expired.]

Ms A C MASHISHI: Chairperson, Minister, does the department have a strategy to identify specific teacher development needs and the ability of teachers to address specific problems in order to improve quality outcomes in our schools? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, I must say, I was quite privileged, because by the time I got to the department, my predecessor had convened a major teachers’ summit which was attended by different stakeholders.

The summit came up with very good resolutions. We are implementing those resolutions in terms of in-service training, but also in terms of teacher training. So, I inherited a very good programme, I must say, and we are implementing it. [Applause.] Mr D C SMILES: Chairperson, hon Minister, the quality of education is at an all-time low in the history of our country, and South Africans are looking towards the department and you to turn the situation around.

What are the interventions that the Minister will apply with regard to proper and effective school management, with particular reference to teacher discipline? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, I am not sure where the timeframe starts, because you cannot say it is at an all-time low. When I went to school, most of my counterparts, even those before me, will tell you that it could not have been better for other sectors of society.

We have major enrolment rates. We are leading in terms of Millennium Development Goals, MDGs, in terms of enrolment; so, it could not be better.

The fact we are not denying is that we are still confronted by a major challenge to be at the levels where all of us as a country want to be, but it is not that it is at an all-time low. We admit that we have major challenges.

In terms of teachers, do you want me to repeat what I have said to Baba uMpontshane? The system stands and falls on the feet of teachers. That is why we have a programme that we inherited. In addition, we are working closely with the unions to make sure that we can correct the major challenge that we have concerning the management of, and the quality of teaching in, our schools. So we are agreed.

Mrs C DUDLEY: Apologies, sometimes we get shunted in the aisle, and so I pressed the wrong button next to my colleague. Thank you.

Hon Minister, over the past two years, the Centre for Development and Enterprise, CDE, has conducted groundbreaking research into a highly significant development in South African education, namely the growth of low-fee private schools catering for poorer sectors of the population.

While many, including public officials, see these private schools as fly-by- night institutions, indications in this report are to the contrary. In addition, the view of parents is that these private schools are achieving better results, that the teachers are more accountable, more dedicated, and show greater interest in the children, etc, etc, and there are reasons for it.

What I want to ask is: Is the department looking at this report, and particularly, at the part where these schools are often faced with long and unreasonable delays in obtaining registration? A lot of them appear to be problematic because they cannot get registration. They have been waiting for years to be registered, and others live in fear of losing their registration and being shut down.

There may be something here that indicates we perhaps need to be supporting something that is working and is giving parents some kind of confidence. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Indeed, Chair, I did read the report and did raise some concerns with the researchers, including the sample that they used to arrive at major conclusions. The sample is too low to draw the conclusions they have drawn, and I think they have accepted that it is actually methodologically quite problematic.

However, in terms of the substance of what they are raising I do not think we have difficulties. Indeed, private schools have provided a very good alternative for our people if they want to make choices.

We do support private schools as an alternative which people want for religious purposes, but also for financial reasons. If you have lots of money and you want to go and pour it out somewhere else, you can go to private schools, because we do have public schools.

It is a good choice for teachers. I do not think we have any difficulty with that. I even have no difficulty with the conclusions of the report, except that methodologically the sample that they were using to draw the conclusions is flawed. I do not think that there are fundamental problems with their conclusions. If parents choose to go to private schools, that is fine.

In terms of registration, provinces can register at a certain pace. When people submit something, you cannot register them before you have at least verified the points that are there.

I have worked in the province. There are lots and lots of problems with your fly-by-nights. In all fairness, you have to go and verify all the information before you can register a school. We had schools which unqualified people have registered; any other crook can register a school.

As the state, we have a responsibility to make sure that we have all the information, and that is where the delays occur sometimes. But as a principle, we have no problems with private schools. It is their right to choose. They are given that right by the Constitution, and it does not give us competition. They supplement the work that we do in the public sector.

 Strategy to harmonise housing delivery and stabilise housing market

1. Ms B N Dambuza (ANC) asked the Minister of Human Settlements:

 What strategy does his department have to (a) harmonise housing
 delivery in the country and (b) stabilise the housing market in order
 to attract private-sector investment in rural towns in view of the
 decline of economic activity in those areas as a result of urban
 migration?                                         NO3126E

The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, I would like to thank the Chairperson of our standing committee for this question. I must preface my answer by indicating that the earlier debate was around International Democracy Day.

One of the most important cornerstones of a democracy, beyond political democracy, is economic democracy. It allows people to have a better quality of life.

One of the most important requirements for a better quality of life for people is a roof above their heads. We live in this House, but as we go home, we all need a roof above our heads.

The question is about the harmonisation of human settlements and housing in South Africa. It is a very broad question and it requires a very broad answer with some specifics.

First and foremost our strategy in terms of the harmonisation of human settlements and housing throughout South Africa is driven by a project that we have appropriately named, ”Human Settlements 2030”. What does it speak of? It says that a child born today will be 20 years old in 2030. A child who is five or 10 years old will be 25 or 30 years old, respectively. Therefore, it requires that we should provide housing for the future; and the future is our children.

All these people who will be living beyond us in 2030 will be requiring flats, apartments, homes, cottages, stand-alone houses and so on. I hope to be there as well. Our strategy of Human Settlements 2030 provides for the youth. That is why we are involving the youth in what we call the Youth Build. We are including women in the Women Build — women in construction. As of last week, we are including the war veterans in the Vets Build.

The question referred to the harmonisation in so far as the attraction of capital to the rural areas is concerned. We all know that it is very hard. Capital does not migrate to places that are depressed. It is for that reason that a statement was made in this House by the hon President and also taken forward by the Minister of Finance, Pravin Gordhan, that R1 billion should be established as a guarantee fund to support those South Africans, who cannot gain access to home loans.

Capital will be attracted to the hinterland of the country if there are guarantees that people will repay the money. It is for that reason that we said in this House such a guarantee provides support for people who are in the police service, nurses, soldiers, blue-collar workers and teachers.

We saw most of those people demonstrating recently. That is how we will be able to utilise the public-private partnership, including financial institutions, as well as our guarantee fund to harmonise housing in South Africa. I thank you. [Applause.]

Ms B N DAMBUZA: Hon Chairperson, I would like to thank the hon Minister for a comprehensive response. You have raised a very critical point on the issue of a R1 billion guarantee fund as a follow-up question. I would like to check how far the department has managed to go in so far as publicising the information to the society as a whole.

The second point is around the issue of the private sector. We know that despite all the calls by the government, there has always been a reluctance by the private sector to invest in rural areas, especially participating in state subsidy programmes. My question is: Can the Minister give his assurance to this House that the private sector is now ready to come to the party after the guarantee fund? Are there any mechanisms in place in the department to ensure that the national objective is strengthened and enhanced, more especially for achieving Outcome 8? I thank you.

The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Hon Dambuza, thank you for that question again. In so far as publicising the availability of the R1 billion guarantee fund to the public is concerned, we started here in this House.

Furthermore, together with members of Minmec, I had an interaction for the day with all the five major banks in this country. We were deliberating about the participation of the banks behind the guarantee fund. We made it very clear to the banks that when they get involved, we are going to make sure that they do not loan money willy-nilly, anyhow. There has to be lending with responsibility so that we can be assured that the guarantee that we would be providing does come back to the state.

Furthermore, we are going to hold discussions with the farmers so that they also come on board. We have realised that whilst farmers farm on productive land, they also provide housing. But they are scared about the fact that people have security of tenure. That is why they are driving people off the farms. A lot of squatter camps or ghettos that we see arise from those farms.

We will, therefore, sit down with farmers and the business sector. I have already communicated with the Johannesburg Stock Exchange that we want to meet with the Top 200 companies. The President has been invited to open that meeting. I thank you.

Mr A C STEYN: Chairperson, the answer given by the hon Minister was indeed very broad. He referred to the human settlements in 2030. I am not sure if either one of us is going to be around come 2030; therefore, I am more interested in what happens between now and then.

Human settlements are very dependent on co-ordination and integration of services. On a question last week, the President replied in this House that the Presidential Co-ordinating Council meeting was held in May, and focused on matters relating to human settlements, specifically on obstacles identified. He further stated that processes were put in place to address this. Therefore, hon Minister, could you please define these processes and share with us in this House the timeframes for the implementation thereof? I thank you.

The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, we thank the President for having been very much alive to the question of human settlements. After all, he is the one who proclaimed it here, moving housing into the arena of human settlements.

The President convened a special Presidential Co-ordinating Council dedicated to human settlements. It was not just a normal one. We agreed about co-ordination of efforts, meaning that all Ministries had to come on board. That is why we said where we build houses, and where people stay, should also be where they play. Where we live is supposed to be were we enjoy leisure and learn.

Therefore, the integration of various departments around human settlements is very critical; and we thank the President for that. I am saying that it is not just a broad general question, but these are issues that are very specific. However, further discussions will be around the increase of the budget. The current budget is essentially a housing budget which requires to be broadened so that it can be a proper human settlements budget. I thank you.

Mr A C STEYN: Chairperson, thank you for this opportunity. Hon Minister, I am more interested in the specific processes that were identified by the President - which you also have alluded to. You have not actually shared them with this House, other than just informing us about the allowance that should be made in the budget. I thank you.

The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Hon Steyn, you are a member of the portfolio committee. You are very much aware of the various specifics that were being discussed, arising from the special Presidential Co-ordinating Council. The President has gone to Russia, China and so on, and he will be coming back with a second one.

The national NGO will be having its meeting next week and we shall be getting further specifics. We are dealing with identifying the question of subsidies for rural areas; changing of hostel landscapes; deliberating about those who cannot even get a guarantee fund; and discussing the utilisation of the Home Loan and Mortgage Disclosure Act to control the whole question of housing in the country. Furthermore, we will be talking about how and where the Estate Agents Act will be residing in the future - something new that you didn’t know. Maybe you would like to do your homework around that.

Therefore, it is very important to know that there are specifics around each of the things that I have mentioned. They will be coming with the settlement of the last meeting that we will be having with the special Presidential Co-ordinating Council 2.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Thank you hon Minister. The last opportunity goes to the hon W J Nelson.

Mrs W J NELSON: Chairperson, mine is on the last question. No-one.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): We have the last opportunity there. Does anyone want to ask the last supplementary question?

Position regarding reports of increased numbers of rapes and infections based on erroneous belief in so-called “Virgin Cure” for HIV/Aids

1. Mrs C Dudley (ACDP) asked the Minister of Social Development:

 (1)   Whether she has been informed of reports by protection  agencies
       concerning the increase in the number of young girls and infants
       that are being raped and infected with  HIV/Aids  based  on  the
       erroneous belief in the so-called “virgin cure” for HIV/Aids; if
       not, what is the position in this regard; if so,

  (2)   whether she has launched an investigation into these reports; if
       not, why not; if so,

 (3)   whether she intends implementing awareness campaigns to counter
       this erroneous belief; if not, why not; if so, what are the
       relevant details?                                  NO3140E

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Hon Chair, the response to hon member Dudley’s question is as follows. The hon member’s question is indeed very difficult to answer in this form as it stands right now.

I must say that we sought information from various sources regarding this matter of rape as indicated by the hon member. We sought information from organisations such as the United Nations Children’s Fund, UNICEF, the Human Sciences Research Council, HSRC, Childline, the Child Welfare of South Africa, the Medical Research Council and the Department of Health.

When dealing with this horrendous issue of the rape of children, the police and health care providers do not ask victims why they were raped. Therefore, there is no reliable statistics on this issue so we do not have data on whether there has been an increase or, for that matter, even a decrease in the rape of children, which is informed by the myth that it will cure perpetrators of HIV and Aids.

I’m also aware that this phenomenon was rumoured to be occurring sometime around the year 2000. However, we can only assume that through the rapid expansion of our antiretroviral programme — which, by the way, is indeed the biggest in the world — and our awareness campaign, these assumptions ended or died down.

These campaigns were run with stakeholders and partners to address this myth. People were also made aware of the facts about HIV and Aids and the benefits of taking treatment.

Again, I stress that this is an assumption since the cause of rape is not something that people generally report on or are even asked to report on, by the way. We can only reliably report on this issue if and when a survey of perpetrators can be done, but, for now, we haven’t done it. I am referring to a survey of perpetrators because asking victims about the issue turns to subject the survivors of sexual violence to secondary victimisation, which we always seek to prevent.

Hon member, given my first response on the first part of the question, I am sure you will agree with me that Question 2 and 3 then fall away. Thank you.

Mrs C DUDLEY: Thank you, hon Minister. Obviously the whole idea of “sex with a virgin” being a sort of cure basically predates what we have today. It is not a new thing; it is something that came from the Victorian era or whatever. So it is not about that kind of research.

What is actually happening — particularly around the time of our previous budget debates when we talked to a lot of the very same people that you spoke to and the NGOs that are working with children that are at risk and actually in crisis — is that there is still an outcry for a campaign to demolish the perception — which they call a lie — that sleeping with a virgin will cure Aids.

So it was not coming from me; it was coming from those who are actually in that situation. Those people feel that this lie is still out there. They feel that they were promised a campaign to demolish this lie. So the report that, daily, more and more young girls and babies are raped and impregnated with HIV/Aids because of the prevalence of this lie are the words coming from the people working with these children and babies on the ground.

The question is: Do we intend doing anything further in this regard or are we putting this to bed? Seriously, this is a cry coming from the people who are right there at the coalface.

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Hon Chair, the hon member does indicate that this is actually a lie, in her own words. We are discussing a lie, apparently. The question from the hon member is: Have we been informed of reports from agencies regarding the increase in the number of young girls and infants that are raped?

It does appear in the question that it is a fact when, in fact, the hon member is referring to a lie. It is a lie; it is a rumour. It is only after we have done the survey, which I have referred to, that we will be able to confirm this to be a fact.

Let me address the issue of a campaign. Our programmes in the department — not only in the Department of Social Development, but also in the Departments of Basic Education and of Health — do address this question of rape, and many other programmes that relate to HIV and Aids and protection against it for people. However, we cannot definitely say that this myth, which the hon member calls a lie, is actually a fact. Our programmes and campaigns continually address these matters. We will work with those NGOs and protection agencies in order to continue to mount these campaigns. Thank you very much.

Mrs W J NELSON: Chairperson, firstly, let me thank the Minister for the manner in which she has responded to the question. Rape is a gross violation against human rights, especially against women and more so against children.

It is, unfortunately, still happening in our society and can never be taken lightly. We would, therefore, be grateful if the Minister would inform us what types of programmes the department has in place to assist victims of sexual abuse. And what types of programmes are run to inform communities on the rights of children? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Hon Chair, we have recently launched the Children’s Act and called upon all agencies and NGOs that we are working with to ensure that we all mount campaigns against the abuse of children and rape, and any other form of abuse, by the way. So there are programmes in that piece of legislation which we will implement concurrently or together with all those NGOs.

We want to thank those NGOs, in particular, for the work that they are doing. There are many of them — for example, we have the Child and Youth Care Workers and many other NGOs — that are working with us to mount this campaign.

There are programmes that we also engage in, namely home-based community care and support care for all other programmes on the protection of children.

All those services are actually in terms of that Act, and they are currently being implemented. Thank you.

Mrs H LAMOELA: Chair, arising out of the Minister’s answers, my question to the Minister is: Are there any timeframes set for the implementation of these awareness campaigns?

Who will be liable for implementing and monitoring them, bearing in mind that NGOs are already underpaid and, as we know — it seems to me it is a national crisis — many NGOs have not even been paid for the last couple of months? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chair, there are no timeframes for implementation of programmes; campaign programmes are ongoing. There is a question about the funding of NGOs which we have to respond to today. I would really prefer to respond to the issue of payment of NGOs under that discussion. Thank you.

Particulars regarding (i) state patients transferred to private hospitals during recent public service strike; (ii) any deaths among state patients as a result of the strike; and (iii) steps taken against any public servant whose strike action led to the death of any patient

1. Mr M Waters (DA) asked the Minister of Health:

   (1) Whether any state patients were transferred to private hospitals during the recent public service strike; if so, (a) how many, (b)(i) from which hospitals and (ii) to which hospitals were they transferred and (c) what is the expected cost to his department of transferring state patients;

   (2) whether any state patients died as a result of this strike; if so, what are the relevant details;

 (3)   whether any steps have been taken against any public servant
       defined as providing essential services whose strike action lead
       to the death of any patient; if not, (a) why not and (b) when
       will such action be taken; if so, what steps have been taken in
       each case?             NO3110E

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chairperson, the first question is about the number of people who were referred to private hospitals during the strike. The figure we have at our disposal is 1 220 patients from Gauteng and North West. The Western Cape and the Northern Cape confirmed that they never transferred anybody to any private hospital during the strike. We do not have any information yet for the other provinces. We are still checking.

Until we are sent invoices, it will not be easy to guess how much these transfers are going to cost the state. This would just be a very wild guess. We will not be able to enter into that.

On the issue of how many people died during the strike, I am sure we are very much aware that this strike had many unique features, which some of us have never experienced in our lifetime. Perhaps even the oldest members of this House have never experienced what we have seen, so the issue of identifying which people died during the strike is a very complex one. It is something not to be taken lightly. One of the main reasons why this is the case is that even during times when there is no strike, to determine the cause of the death of somebody is not a matter to be taken lightly.

That is why in some instances we hold inquests, which are headed by judges or very highly professional people. We do postmortems. Some hospitals, on an everyday basis, do what they call mortality meetings, where they call professors to come and determine the cause of death because one can’t just stand up publicly and say that a particular person was killed by such and such a thing. As a country, we went through these three weeks which were very complex. Obviously, because of the complexity, a lot of complex and abnormal things might have happened, including death. But I can’t sit down and point out certain things. There are obvious cases, of course, like the nurse who was hit by a brick.

If she had died, it would have been directly due to strikers because she was attacked by them. We had other cases whereby people were dragged out of theatres. You would remember that I came out publicly and said that this was murder. I came out publicly and said that if one was undertaking an operation and the strikers came to drag out the people who were conducting the operation, this was murder.

However, you are aware that nobody died due to that because the doctors who were performing operations where this happened stood up and said, “You’d rather have to kill us!”. They refused to leave those patients alone. The perpetrators tried but they never succeeded.

The other complication we had was that, for instance, the biggest hospital in the Southern Hemisphere, Chris Hani Baragwanath, has 30 deaths on any normal day. But during the strike, the deaths went down to 18 and are now back at 25 after the strike.

You may argue that most people might have died at home and did not come to the hospital. How will that be determined? So, this is a matter that needs very thorough consideration, and we are still doing that. Thank you.

Mr M WATERS: Thank you, Minister, for that reply. Minister, this is the second time in three years that essential services and hospitals have gone on strike, and in fact this time it was a violent strike. You even had to get a court order prohibiting them from going on strike.

There have been numerous deaths which occurred as a direct result of the strike, and they have been reported in the papers. I hear what you are saying, that it’s very difficult to ascertain the exact number of these deaths. But just to give you an indication, the chief executive officer of Doctor George Mukhari Hospital stated in the media that at least 10 deaths at his hospital alone were due directly to the strike - directly. These deaths could have been avoided, and they should be viewed as culpable homicide.

My question pertains to paragraph 3 of my oral question, Minister. Despite having a court order, union bosses continued to encourage and promote workers in essential services to go on strike, violently so. Will your department take any legal action against the union bosses and individuals who are found to have gone on strike and used violence in the process? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, what I said is the truth. If the chief executive officer of any hospital stood up and said there were five deaths due to the strike, he needs to stand up to determine that. I am talking scientifically here — that even during normal events, to determine somebody’s death you need to hold an inquest and take note of many other observations.

Does this mean that if there were 10 deaths in a hospital during a strike those deaths were necessarily due to the strike? That’s a very tricky thing. But the fact that he said this even to the media does not necessarily determine that I must come to this House and say that in George Mukhari we had 10 deaths and in that hospital we had 5 deaths. I am just saying that this is an issue that will need a very thorough determination and inquest.

On the issue of essential services workers, you are aware – and this has been in many papers – that there was an issue about doctors who were on strike. No doctor went on strike. Nobody! There is not a single doctor who went on strike for the whole three weeks. But the newspapers reported on this everyday.

They showed them toyi-toying even in cartoons, but all of them were at work. I worked with some of them for the whole night. They never went on strike, and they declared it to be so.

We now come to the issue of nurses and the Democratic Nursing Organisation of South Africa, Denosa. Officially, Denosa never called for a strike. We spoke to them and they said they never called for any strike, but that they were being stopped and intimidated. Many of the health workers in essential services will actually stand up and say so.

Now, you are aware that the issue of essential services and the service level agreement is a contested issue. It is still being debated in the Chamber at this point. I can’t give the final results here.

People are saying this issue has been on the table for the past 10 years, since long before some of us were there. They say there was no general agreement about essential services. It was intended that if there are essential services, there must be a minimum service level agreement. This is still an issue of debate. So, as a department, we have not yet reached finality that so-and-so were on strike and that they were supposed to render an essential service, so they must be punished. But I know statutory bodies do so … [Interjections.] [Time expired.]

Mr D A KGANARE: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, despite what you are saying in terms of the issue of essential services, I know that Denosa says they did not go on strike, but there are nurses who went on strike because on TV some of them were saying this did not matter and that saving lives was something that used to happen during the times of Florence Nightingale; this time round they did not care what happened.

The issue is, even if we talk about essential services, there are people who are supposed to agree that they are part of essential services. But their behaviour, conduct and statements indicate that they don’t believe or care about being part of essential services.

What is the department doing, or what are you doing, hon Minister, to ensure that we enforce discipline with regard to those who defied legislation in terms of essential services?

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon member, I have just informed you that this issue about essential services and the minimum service level agreement is still under debate. If you know any health worker who stood up publicly and mentioned what you have just said, bring them forward so that this can become a criminal issue. Yes, bring them here and say who stood up.

I’m aware, for instance, that the DA went to court and reported somebody and said that the person had stood up publicly in the media and said this kind of thing. They provided evidence and also indicated that the person must be charged. I want you to do this today rather than throwing it back at me.

I mentioned, for instance, the fact that I was told there were student nurses who went to operating theatres to drag other nurses out when somebody was undergoing an operation. I said they must give me names. I will fire them here and now; they can’t be health workers. This is because you can’t have a health worker who kills. But I am still waiting for that to this day.

What you are saying is what you read in newspapers. The real thing that indicates the people who did this has never been put on my table. If this can be done, we will certainly take action.

The nursing council also stood up openly and said the same thing. So did the medical council. They said that if any health worker who is registered with us is found to have committed such an act, they will take them to disciplinary hearings and may actually take them off the roll.

This process can still take place, provided names are brought in. What you are saying is what you read all over the papers, or what you might have heard over the radio. [Applause.]

Mr M B GOQWANA: Thank you, hon Minister. There is a very difficult part here which you have partially answered. It says that if somebody says people died due to the strike, this makes it an unnatural cause of death and that this requires that you do a post mortem. The question that I am asking, which you have partially answered, is whether you would be able to do post mortems on all these people, even those that have already been buried? [Laughter.]

The second question, hon Minister, is that we know that strategies and measures were taken by the department to make sure that the impact of the strike would not be too bad and that there would be service delivery.

In your preliminary assessment, could you possibly tell us how these measures helped you, knowing very well that you yourself actually did a caesarean section in one of the hospitals to try and assist in the situation? But what I am not going to tell you, Minister, is that we used to judge how good people were in doing caesarean sections by the time they took … [Interjections.] Thank you. [Time expired.]

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Thank you, Chairperson. It is true that emotionally you can stand up and say we lost 100 people during the strike. You could easily say that and point out the people who were buried. But I am talking scientifically here in terms of procedures. Otherwise I could also be giving nonfactual information to the gallery by saying 1 000 people died and that the people who were on strike killed them. I am trying to give scientific facts here about what I know.

In terms of measures, they did help a lot. Members of the public were excellent — those who came in and helped in hospitals. That is why a hospital like Chris Hani Baragwanath became a centre where everybody went to.

At one stage, they successfully did 90 caesareans a day, which has never happened before. People from all over the place rushed there because the measures that had been put in place at the hospital were such that it was running like a normal hospital.

We had such situations all over the country where the measures that were put in place — members of the public — normalised the situation. Due to the army, the situation never became as bad as it could have been. Thank you.

Ms E MORE: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, I would like to know whether the department has any contingency and viable plan should the strike resume due to the fact that no agreement with the unions has been reached during the current negotiations, even after two weeks. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Well, you are aware that during the strike - even though we were caught by surprise — we did have contingency plans with the army. We have called on MECs on Friday this week to get a review so that we can see where we have gone wrong and then be able to draw up fresh contingency plans. So, we are not taking any chances. We are meeting with all MECs in the country on Friday, specifically for this purpose.

        Dealing with water and sanitation backlogs in schools

1. Mr Z S Makhubele (ANC) asked the Minister of Basic Education:

   Whether her department envisages dealing with backlogs regarding water and sanitation in schools; if not, why not; if so, what (a) is the current status and (b) measures are being implemented in this regard? NO3131E

The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chair, the question relates to water and sanitation backlogs in our schools. We currently have, out of our 30 000 schools, 1 307 that do not have water; and 536 that do not have water and sanitation. The provincial departments, through their school-building programmes, are dealing with this. Because of the emergency and serious nature of this programme, we have been able to get R66 million from the European Union, EU, to deal with that.

Last Friday I signed a partnership with the Coca-Cola Foundation-led consortium, which will also be assisting us with water and sanitation in 100 of these schools. We are working with the Departments of Water Affairs and of Energy to implement and manage the provision of water, sanitation and electricity in our schools. This is in line with the government’s key objectives of delivering services to the public and schools of the poor.

Our department has also put in place the Accelerated School Infrastructure Delivery Initiative, and again this programme is focusing mainly on water, sanitation and electricity. We do hope that by 2014 we would have provided water and sanitation to all our schools in the country. Thank you.

Mr Z S MAKHUBELE: Hon Chairperson, whilst appreciating the efforts being made to involve the private sector in this particular programme, may the Minister indicate to this House what is meant by proper sanitation in schools. Does it, for instance, mean pit latrines, and what is the overall estimated cost of the water and sanitation backlog? Thanks.

The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, in terms of the first statement about what proper sanitation is: It varies, that is why the figures even say 1 300 don’t have water and sanitation, but 500 have sanitation. It means we are using other methods of sanitation.

Sanitation is not only waterborne sanitation. We have pit latrines and all other forms of sanitation in schools; and those we count as sanitation, as long as they are functional. They serve the purpose and are hygienic, so it’s different forms of sanitation.

In terms of how much it’s going to cost us to address the needs of this 130 000 schools, we’ve worked out the costs for just those 1 000 schools for water and sanitation and it’s going to cost us more than R4 billion. That’s the money we are looking for just to deal with water and sanitation.

The major problem is that these schools are in areas where there are no bulk services. It means we are bringing water to areas where there’s no water in the whole community. That is why even providing them is much more expensive than you’ll do in an area where there are bulk services provided by the municipality. But the latest cost was just in excess of R4 billion to deal with these 1 000 schools.

Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Hon Chairperson, 2014 was put forward as the year when all the sanitation problems would have been done away with. Firstly, does the Minister think that by that date we would have done away with all those backlogs?

Secondly, connected to that, does the Minister agree that our system of education is characterised by this very serious element of wastefulness? Instead of prioritising sanitation and the elimination of other backlogs, your provincial counterparts would embark on wasteful activities, for instance, imbizos and sod–turning ceremonies, which end up with only the sods being turned but no infrastructure would be put up. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chair, our schools are indeed characterised by major inequalities. You have some that have violins and others that don’t even have whistles. That is the character of what we have inherited and it is one of the major challenges we have.

On whether we would reach the 2014 target, we are working very hard, that’s why we’ve worked out the costs. We are saying, in terms of the accelerated infrastructure programme, that sanitation, water, electricity and fencing are our priorities. Any other money that we asked to be identified for us in the fiscus is going to address those priorities. Even in terms of provincial monies, we are saying to them that they have to prioritise those four areas. I am quite confident that we will indeed reach that target.

As part of our turnaround strategy, also, we are looking at wasteful expenditure, where we indeed often have to cut off in different areas. We are looking at different ways of saving to make sure that indeed we can make savings, such as, how we deliver books — that there are too many people in between. In making sure that we can cut off, we are trying to deal directly with publishers.

Provinces are refused permission to build very expensive schools for R100 million when they still have basic things that are not there in their provinces. That is part of what we are trying to work on with provinces to focus on priorities — such as water, sanitation and fencing — that are core and have to be done. So we are mindful of that and are trying to work very closely with provinces to rationalise and make sure that we can save funding for these priorities. Thank you.

Mr D C SMILES: First of all, hon Minister, I hope that your provincial departments will assist you to reach that target date of 2014, because you will remember that many schools in the Eastern Cape are still with us. Despite coming up with different, tougher dates, mud schools are not yet totally eradicated in the Eastern Cape.

My follow up question is this: Given the large-scale theft of metal and electrical fixtures as well as plumbing material from schools, has the Minister put in place any additional security measures at schools? This would be to protect the entire new infrastructure that is being rolled out; to ensure that it remains in place and is not simply stolen within the first few months after installation. I thank you.

The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chair, we have designed the accelerated infrastructure programme in such a way that we are not dependent on provinces.

We identify resources nationally and work with provinces and the Development Bank of Southern Africa, DBSA, to help us with project management. In this way we get the private sector to deliver directly to schools in the already identified priority areas.

The 2014 commitment is not dependent on provinces as such, but on our abilities with partners. As I said, we have the Coca-Cola fund, the Mvula Trust and all those people coming with to assist us to implement. We are not so dependent on the provinces.

In terms of what you correctly identify as stealing, I think stealing in schools is a major problem in communities, especially in poor communities. One of the strategies we are employing is to really work with communities to create a sense of ownership and to get them to build the schools so that they can protect them.

However, it’s a major problem - not only with new infrastructure. We lose desks when schools are closed. It’s just a crisis as to what is going to happen to education facilities, so it is a matter of great concern.

We are really looking at different ways of mobilising communities to support schools, because we are aware that where communities take ownership, they also protect resources which are in their communities. We, therefore, have a whole major exercise of community mobilisation to protect the assets that are there in the communities. It’s a major problem in the sector. Thank you.

Position regarding departmental funding for electrification of Thokoza hostels

1. Mr K P Sithole (IFP) asked the Minister of Human Settlements:

   Whether his department has provided any funding for electrification of the Thokoza hostels; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details?

           NO3133E
   

The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, hon Sithole has asked a question that affects one of the most intractable problems the country is confronting. The question is about hostels. The specific question is about the Thokoza Hostel which, as I recently mentioned in this House, I personally visited.

To change the landscape of hostels is going to be one long haul. We should all know that.

The national department is currently reviewing its human settlements development funding model in line with the new service delivery approach of the outcomes-based targets, which we recently signed with the President as part of our delivery commitment. The funding of the Thokoza Hostel project will therefore be made available in terms of this model.

The availability of the funding will be dependent upon finalisation by National Treasury, which is currently being consulted through the Medium- Term Expenditure Committees process.

Therefore, I assure hon Sithole that this commitment remains. However, it is prudent that this process be strictly adhered to before any public funds are expended. This House knows very well that, from my side as a member of the Cabinet, and together with Cabinet, the last thing this department would want to entertain is to spend public funds without exercising due care. We therefore remain committed to the Thokoza initiative, but now the changes have to happen in line with the new commitment around the outcomes- based approach. The fund is there and, as soon as we are ready to send that money, we will do that. I thank you.

Mr K P SITHOLE: Chair, I am shocked by what the hon Minister has said just now, because the hon Minister announced at Thokoza that he is going to fund the electrification of Thokoza. Ekurhuleni has funded the electrification because they expected the Minister to refund them. So if the Minister says he had not yet started to refund them, then we have a problem.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Is there a question there, hon member?

The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chair, the hon member has a problem; he is just shocked. I want to repeat – it is not such a difficult thing to understand – that the commitment remains. The fund is in place and, as the Minister, I am committed.

I understand that place very well, but the change has happened in line with the outcomes-based approach. I have just signed this thing last month with the President, and this has changed the pace because I have to adhere strictly to this outcomes-based approach. So I am not going to throw good money at a bad project. We remain committed to help electrify that place and this matter is being communicated to the council in Ekurhuleni. Thank you.

Ms D E DLAKUDE: Chairperson, I welcome the hon Minister’s response to this question as it shows commitment.

Since the Minister has said that he had communicated this to the municipality, has this also been communicated to the residents, because it has raised high expectations for both; and how long will it take his department to fulfil this promise?

One other thing that the hon Minister must also note is that the municipality is currently under pressure and accused of failing to deliver. I thank you.

The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chair, indeed, we have communicated, but the question of communicating with ordinary people on the ground is also the function of the municipality. However, there is no problem. Thokoza is just around the corner.

I have been there personally and I would want to go back there. If I have to communicate this to our people there myself, I will do just that. So it is not such a big issue. How long this will take depends on how soon we can give the electricians the funding. I thank you.

Mr A M FIGLAN: Chair, usually the electrification of any project takes place after renovation or upgrading. Therefore, if electrification is done first, will it not delay the upgrading of the hostels, because it may lead to a situation where the upgrading is delayed as the hostel dwellers will be deemed to have better living conditions? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chair, I understand that question very well. Sometimes upgrading goes hand-in-hand with electrification. I just want to inform this House that when we talk about the Thokoza Hostel, we are not talking about a structure which looks like this House; it’s heart- rending!

Ka Sesotho ba re ke ntho ya masisapelo. Ho bohloko ho ya moo, ho bohloko! Ntate Buthelezi o a e tseba ntho ena. Ke ntho e thata. [In Sesotho they say it is heart-rending. It is painful to go there, painful indeed! The hon Buthelezi knows about this thing. It is a very difficult thing.]

We, therefore, have a problem, a very serious problem. Hon member, you are aware of what is happening there. If you start upgrading, it is going to take a long time; so if this electrification is going to happen, it must happen. They have to have lights, they must have warm water, and they must be able to cook for their children.

We are doing it in such a way that it addresses the immediate issues of the people, otherwise, if we subject them to the total upgrading of the hostel, it will be the long haul I spoke about. We are doing this out of sensitivity to the people. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr A C STEYN: House Chairperson, the hon Minister partly answered my question. I wanted to ask him if it was prudent to spend money on the electrification when, in fact, there is no budget to rectify the building.

As he very well knows, the building is in a dire state and it could, in fact, be prejudicial to the safety of the dwellers. So is that not something that, with the limited budget, should be addressed and thereafter followed by the electrification? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chair, I know hon Steyn is a DA member, but I want to thank him for agreeing with me. As you have indicated, it is not an easy project, but we just have to help those people. The architects and other people involved – the electricians and engineers – have got to do it in such a way that, at a later stage, the total upgrading can incorporate and integrate the work that has already been done there. Thank you.

Particulars regarding development of educational materials and support programmes so as to effectively teach key aspects of climate change and global warming

1. Mr D A Kganare (Cope) asked the Minister of Basic Education:

   Whether she has developed any educational materials and support programmes to assist educators to effectively teach key aspects relating to (a) climate change and (b) global warming; if not, why not; if so, (i) how many educational materials were developed, (ii) in which (aa) languages and (bb) provinces and (iii) how many educators received training? NO3141E

The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you, Chair. This question relates to the inclusion of climate change and global warming in the curriculum. The answer is that climate change is integrated already, and is addressed in Natural Science and Social Science, in grades four to nine. It is also included in the Physical Science, Life Science and Geography curriculums in Grades 10 to 12.

The question also asks whether or not we have material on global warming. Education material for climate change and global warming is in approved textbooks for subjects in the national catalogue as well as in the provincial catalogues. These text books are in English and Afrikaans, because in those grades the language of learning and teaching is either English or Afrikaans.

The question further asks whether or not teachers have been trained in and understand the issues around climate change and global warming. Indeed, in 2008, the department trained more than 99 subject advisers who were meant to train teachers in their districts, specifically on issues of climate change and global warming.

We are aware that we have teachers, who teach these subjects in these grades, who have been exposed to and trained on global warming and climate change. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr M S SHILOWA: Through you, Chair, Mr Kganare will not be raising a supplementary question.

Ms D E DLAKUDE: Hon Chairperson, I have already asked my supplementary question. Thank you.

Mr J J SKOSANA: Thank you, Chairperson, and thank you, hon Minister for the positive response that you have given this House. Hon Minister, will the subject advisors that the department has trained be able to direct teachers’ attention towards highlighting climate change in the curriculum? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you very much, Chair. Indeed, the subject advisors were trained specifically in these areas because of the importance of ensuring that our children do understand issues around climate change and global warming.

We are working quite closely with the Department of Water and Environmental Affairs to also make sure that indeed these concepts are understood. So the answer is yes, attention has been drawn to the importance of theses issues. Thank you.

Dr W G JAMES: Chair, because climate change is one of the most compelling issues of our day, it is essential that there be a public understanding of that and that it be cultivated at all levels in our education system.

As the Minister points out, in terms of its content, it is included in the Geography and Environmental Science part of the curriculum. So is it not perhaps appropriate to include climate change, global warming, adaptation and mitigation in the civics education part of the curriculum so that every child is, in fact, exposed to that information?

The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Member, I did indicate that these issues are dealt with in Natural Science and Social Science in the lower grades, where there is no choice of subject. So every learner will have been exposed to them. It is only in Grades 10 and 11 where they are only found in Physical Science and Life Science.

Therefore, the basics will have been learned in the intermediate phase where every child will have been exposed to them. Only the deeper concepts are tackled under Physical Science, which are the mitigating factors. This is really not so much a civic education issue, but a deeper understanding of the physics around them that they are taught about in a later class. But all children will have been exposed to these issues in their intermediate phase.

Mr D C SMILES: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, I am sure that you will remember that there was a subject, during my years of schooling, which they called “Omgewingsleer”, in English “Environmental Studies”.

I hope that I have translated that correctly. I think that whilst we appreciate the efforts of the department to deal with the question of climate change and global warming, it is still important for the department to engage the learners at a very early stage, because concepts like “mitigation” might sound very difficult, but they can be explained in a very simple way. The same applies to adaptation, because we can show them examples of how animals adapt to climate change. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: In case the hon member is like me — these grades also confuse me — Grade 4 is Standard 2 according to the old terms. This means that it is already at that early age. So, we are saying that between Standard 2 and Standard 9 minus two — Grade 7 — they will have learned that. [Laughter.]

Therefore, if we take those back to exactly the age that we were being taught these things, you will see that we are teaching them at the same age; it is just that we are using different terms for the grades. It sounds later, but it is actually earlier. It is Standard 2, so I guess it is early enough to expose them to these issues. As I have said, we have also changed the way we name subjects.

Perhaps what you were calling Environmental Studies, being older than you, we called something else in my time. Now you might find that the subject that you named, calling it in Afrikaans, is one of the subjects here; either it is Natural Sciences or Social Sciences. So, these might be terms that we are talking about.

The fact of the matter is that we are indeed trying to spread as much as possible across the different subjects at a lower phase. As the member has said, at a senior phase, where we now include the concepts as part of Physical Sciences, where we are now looking at the scientific part of it, it is in Grades 10 and 12. Grade 10 is Form 3 and Grade 12 is Form 5.

That is where we go deeper. So it is exactly at the same age, there is just a difference in how we name the grades and subjects. But we agree with you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Thank you, hon Minister. You are not the only one. I have a last opportunity here for another supplementary question. No one? Then I go to question 183 put by the hon Thobejane to the Minister of Social Development.

Position regarding (i) systems to prevent SA citizens who have British citizenship from receiving pensions from both countries and (ii) number of persons receiving both a state pension and a pension from a foreign state

1. Mr S G Thobejane (ANC) asked the Minister of Social Development:

   (1) Whether there are any systems in place to ensure that South African citizens who also have British citizenship do not receive pensions from both countries; if not, why not; if so, (a) what systems and (b) how does her department apply these systems to applicants with dual citizenship;

   (2) how many persons who are receiving state pensions are also receiving pensions from a foreign state? NO2663E

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Thank you, Chair. The first thing is to move from the premise that the pension that the hon member refers to is a social assistance pension and not any other kind of a retirement pension. Yes, indeed, we believe that our means test, which we have in terms of the Social Assistance Act, is an administrative tool that requires every applicant for a pension to disclose any form of income, whether from South Africa or elsewhere — Botswana, Britain or anywhere else.

Individuals with dual citizenship are managed by exclusion through the application of this means test. Citizens with an income below the means test will qualify either for a full social grant or a reduced grant based on this means test, which they must declare in terms of the regulations and the Act.

Section 5 of the Social Assistance Act, Act 13 of 2004, states that only the following categories of people are eligible to receive social assistance in South Africa:

… South African citizens who are resident in the Republic, permanent residents and a category of persons prescribed by the Minister by notice in the gazette.

These requirements include valid forms of identification. The SA Social Security Agency, Sassa, can only comply with the eligibility provisions of the Social Assistance Act and can, therefore, not exclude anybody who qualifies in terms of the criteria stated earlier on.

Having said that, it does therefore indicate that we’ll not have a number of people who are receiving pensions from any foreign state because, naturally, they’ll be excluded by a means test, which is a tool we use. Thank you very much.

Mna S G THOBEJANE: Ke a leboga, Tona. Ke nagana gore taba ye re e bolelago fa ya gore go na le badudi ba bangwe bao ba nago le magwalo a bodudi dinageng tše pedi — ye nngwe ya dinaga tše e le Afrika Borwa — gomme ba humana phenšene ye o bego o e hlalosa fa, ke taba ye e lego gona. Ke ka lebaka leo ke botšišago gore na le na le palo ye e laet šago batho bao ba swerego mangwalo a bodudi bja naga ye ya rena le bja naga ye nngwe ka nako ye tee gomme ba humana phenšene go tšwa nageng ye nngwe ba dutše ba le ka gare ga naga ye ya gaborena. Ge re sa be le palo ya bona, mma, re tlo humana e le gore batho bao ba se nago maswanedi a go humana tšhelete ke bona ba e humanago gomme bao ba loketšwego ke go e humana ga ba e humane. Ke be ke kgopela gore le šaleng taba ye morago gomme le boneng gore le e direla molawana wa go e hlaola. (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)

[Mr S G THOBEJANE: Thank you, Minister. I think it is true that there are people with dual citizenship – one being South African – who are receiving a social assistance grant. This is the reason why I am asking if you have statistics on people with dual citizenship who are also receiving grants from foreign states while residing in our country. We need to have the number of such people to avoid a situation in which grants are paid to the wrong people instead of those who deserve it. I propose that you look at this matter and come up with an Act to clarify it.]

TONA YA TLHABOLOLO YA SETŠHABA: Modulasetilo, tla ke arabe ka puo e gaufinyana le e rre a buileng ka yona. Dipalopalo tse rre a buang ka tsona ga re na tsona ga jaana, gonne fa re tsenya molao o mo tirisong, o tla bo o raya gore o ka tswa o le moagi wa Aforika Borwa, a o ka tswa o na le makwaloitshupo kana o le moagi wa dinaga di le pedi, se re yang ka sona go ya ka molao o re nang le ona ga jaana ke gore re leba gore letseno la gago le go dumelela go bona phenšene eno ya thuso ya katletleloloago mo Aforika Borwa naa.

Ke tlhaloganya se rre a se buang fa a re ka gongwe re tshwanetse re lebe phetolo ya Melao gore e re kgontshe go leba batho bao. Ga jaana ka gore Molao ga o ise o fetolwe, ga re na dipalopalo tsa go nna jalo. Fa re ka tla ra leba Molao oo jaaka go tshitshinngwa, re tla kgona go nna le dipalopalo tse di ntseng jalo. Re amogela gore ka gongwe go a dumelesega ebile go a tshwanelega gore re lebe tshitshinyo e rre a e bayang. (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, let me respond by using my common knowledge and also what the gentleman spoke about. At the moment we don’t have the statistics that the gentleman is referring to, because if the Act is put into practice, this will imply that you can be a South African citizen, by virtue of having an identity document or a dual passport. In actual fact, what should guide us regarding this current Act is that we need to check whether your salary qualifies you to receive this social grant in South Africa.

I understand what the gentleman is referring to when he says we should maybe look at amending the Act so that it can allow us to accommodate those people. It should be noted that the Act has not been amended at the moment, and furthermore we don’t have the statistics. Once we look at that Act as it is suggested, we will be able to have the statistics. It is acceptable and it is also in order for us to consider the gentleman’s suggestion.]

Mrs S P KOPANE: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Hon Minister, I really agree with what you said about the means test, but Sassa doesn’t have cross- reference resources because they rely on the hard copy information provided to them. In the light of the fact that Sassa doesn’t have the resources to cross-reference, will the Minister initiate any bilateral agreement with the British government or any other country where people have a dual membership? At present Sassa relies only on the hard copy information that is given to them as much as they don’t have access for cross-reference, where someone has not declared any banking accounts. Thank you. [Time expired.]

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Thank you, hon Chair. Yes, indeed, I agree that we do not have a cross-referencing system currently, but as I indicated earlier on, we solely rely on the Social Assistance Act. What hon members are proposing is something that we have to look at, which I responded to earlier. It may well be something that we need to look at — maybe not even a bilateral agreement, but the means to actually cross- reference. Thank you very much.

See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr G R MORGAN: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:

That this House debates the current state of bulk water infrastructure in South Africa and comes up with recommendations on how to improve the maintenance and refurbishment of this infrastructure.

Dr A N LUTHULI: Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House debates the retaining and recruitment of health professionals so as to prevent the large exodus of health professionals to foreign countries.

I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr L RAMATLAKANE: House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of Cope:

That the House debates the government’s failure and refusal to fire plus- minus 1 000 police officers who were found guilty of fraud charges.

Dr G W KOORNHOF: House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House debates how to mobilise resources so as to support and encourage co-operatives as a means of creating jobs and to grow the economy.

Mrs C DUDLEY: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ACDP:

That the House —

(1) notes that according to a study commissioned by Johannesburg (Bourse operator) JSE Ltd black South Africans own 18 percent of the available shares of the top 100 companies listed in Johannesburg, edging closer to a government target of 25 percent; and

(2) commends South African companies who were encouraged to increase black ownership under rules established to address economic imbalances after the end of apartheid in 1994.

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Chair, on a point of order: This is a matter that we discussed at the Chief Whips’ Forum this morning, that a notice of motion should simply indicate what the topic is for debate. Once again, the ACDP is now making a statement rather than simply asking for a motion to be debated in this House.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Hon member, can you stick to the Rule of a notice of a motion? Thank you.

Ms L D MAZIBUKO: Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:

That the House debates the effect of the performance of understaffing in the Department of Health’s Directorate for Radiation Control and comes up with recommendations on how to turn this situation around. I thank you.

Mr M A NHANHA: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of Cope:

That the House debates the report of the Commission on Traditional Leadership Disputes and Claims, also known as the Nhlapo Commission, as announced by President Jacob Zuma.

Ms B THOMSON: House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House debates plans geared at meeting our targets of employing 2% of people with disabilities.

             CONGRATULATIONS TO LADYSMITH BLACK MAMBAZO

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr C T FROLICK: Chairperson, on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party, I move without notice:

That the House —

 1) notes that Ladysmith Black Mambazo will be celebrating  their  50th
    anniversary and their leader Joseph Tshabalala’s 70th birthday with
    a tour this month;

  2) further notes that the group has been  South  Africa’s  ambassadors
     for almost 50 years, and have kept the South African flame  burning
     and have amassed many awards, including Grammy awards, in the  past
     years;

  3) supports the group’s efforts to remember where they have come  from
     by hosting their 50th birthday celebrations  tour  locally  despite
     their hectic international schedule; and

  4) wishes Ladysmith Black Mambazo and their leader Joseph Tshabalala a
     successful tour.

Agreed to.

          IMPORTANCE OF TOURISM MONTH AND WORLD TOURISM DAY

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr C T FROLICK: Chairperson, on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party, I move without notice:

That the House —

 1) notes that Tourism Month is an annual celebration held in September
    to focus on the importance of  tourism  to  the  economy  of  South
    Africa;


 2) further  notes  that  World  Tourism  Day  is  commemorated  on  27
    September each year and that this date was chosen to coincide  with
    an important milestone in world tourism:  the  anniversary  of  the
    adoption of the United Nations World Tourism  Organisation  (UNWTO)
    Statutes on 27 September 1970; and


 3) recognises the importance of Tourism Month and World Tourism Day to
    foster  awareness  among  South  Africans  and  the   international
    community of the importance of tourism and  its  social,  cultural,
    political and economic values.

Agreed to.

         LIVING OUT THE VALUES OF A JUST AND CARING SOCIETY

                      (Debate on Heritage Day)

The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Chairperson and hon members, I greet you in this Heritage Month. As we celebrate our heritage and the hard work of our nation, united in its diversity, we also thank the people of this nation for all the good work done during the historic first 2010 Fifa Soccer World Cup to be held on African soil.

This year’s national Heritage Day celebrations will be held in Durban on 24 September at the Moses Mabhida Stadium with the theme “Celebrating the 2010 Fifa Soccer World Cup successes: Our heritage”, and will be addressed by President Jacob Zuma.

Our religious communities will lead a thanksgiving service to give thanks for a successful 2010 World Cup. On this occasion political leaders will also be requested to participate through presenting their messages to the nation.

Our sports teams from various sporting codes and our football legends will be given pride of place at this event. Our artists will also participate and show their commitment to a nation united in action.

Truly, the 2010 World Cup was an event where our people stood together, where they displayed great patriotism and great confidence in themselves. In this way, as a nation, we exhibited a renewed consciousness of who we are as a people and what we can do together; a sense of pride in what we have achieved and can achieve together, through displays of the South African flag; and also a sense of an African identity evident in our collective support for the other African countries participating in the 2010 World Cup.

As a people united in action, the challenge moving forward is how to use this example as a living legacy to propel our people into the future, to be confident about our own destinies, our own abilities, and to be proud of our history and to honour our living human treasures.

The theme of national Heritage Day, therefore, is a call to all South Africans who pooled their efforts in making the 2010 World Cup a success to use their energy to make this country a better place and to work together towards social cohesion. Let the achievements of this year be a source of inspiration, hope and strength, especially when we are confronted with the challenges we face as a nation in our daily lives.

This was, in fact, ubuntu in action. Ubuntu is our core value, encompassing inclusiveness, communal solidarity, empathy, kindness and sharing, which sums up the spirit of togetherness and generosity characterised by the South African participation in the 2010 World Cup.

Yet I am sure that you will agree that the full story of how we, as a nation, rallied together to welcome guests to our shores is yet to be told. How we constructed stadiums, how we built roads, how we offered our homes to others, supported our national team and all African teams, how we rallied behind our national flag, how we prepared and practised, and how we sang and danced to our vuvuzelas and makarapas and welcomed the world, is a story yet to be told.

This is a story, of course, of discipline and selflessness, of industriousness and family values — a story of profound humanism that celebrates a united nation at its best. It was a timely reminder of the very foundations, values and principles that are enshrined in our Constitution and also of what we have come to stand for. It is a reminder that in winning a long and hard battle for equality, for a nonracial and nonsexist society, we, as South Africa, were seeking to take humanity forward through helping ourselves and the world to turn over a new leaf, to enter a new productive space of possibilities and, out of this, to give birth to a new man and a new woman.

It is in this context that the topic of today’s debate on living out the values of a just and caring society gains meaning. Our leaders, such as Charlotte Maxeke, Chief Albert Luthuli, Lillian Ngoyi, Helen Joseph and Oliver Tambo placed emphasis on nonracialism, nonsexism and an inclusive society as being essential for the transformation of our nation. They lived their lives with these values guiding their actions. We need to follow their example. On culture, President O R Tambo said:

Our people, with their varied cultures, which are continuously mingling and interacting to their mutual enrichment, exhibit, despite their conditions, a great love for life and a sensitive joy in the creative and human endeavours of the people of the world, without exception. These ordinary, industrious and peaceful people want to revolutionise themselves and their country.

It is this selfsame spirit described by Comrade O R Tambo that characterises our people today. It is indeed our great love for life and a sensitive joy that enables us to make our stories and to value our cultural experience.

It is precisely our commitment to the creative and humane endeavours of the peoples of the world that has propelled us to want the story of our people and our nation to take its pride of place in the narratives of the world as our contribution to our own development and as part of world culture.

It is in this context of drinking from the fountains of history and learning from the men and women of practical wisdom in our communities and those who gave birth to us that we are embarking upon an initiative to honour and to celebrate our living human treasures.

“Celebrating South Africa’s living human treasures: The custodians of our intangible cultural heritage” is an initiative of the Department of Arts and Culture to draw attention to the role played by our living legends and to seek to protect and preserve this knowledge and to transmit it to future generations.

The programme also makes provision for the posthumous recognition of living treasures where strong recommendations are made by bearer communities. Accordingly, this policy will ensure that the status of national living treasures is a lifelong status.

The arts and culture sector is full of such distinguished individuals. I am sure we have some of them up there amongst our beautiful women. Malibongwe! [Praise!] [Applause.]

The symbols of our nation are also important parts of our heritage. Earlier this month, one of the flags flown beneath the helicopters at President Mandela’s inauguration in 1994 was rescued for our country by a great patriot, Mr Giuseppe Ciucci. This flag will be formally handed over to our government at an event on 27 September at Stellenbosch University.

We are also going to host a national seminar on human living treasures on 30 September 2010. The main objective of the seminar is to start a national dialogue that will further expand and elaborate on the concept of living human treasures.

During Women’s Month, we honoured Charlotte Maxeke, Lillian Ngoyi and Helen Joseph by declaring their graves national monuments. We honoured Dulcie September by instituting a Dulcie September Memorial Lecture at the University of the Western Cape.

On Thursday, tomorrow, we shall also launch the Social History Centre at the Iziko Museums here in Cape Town. This centre will also play an important role in the preservation of our heritage.

Last week I also announced our department’s support for the design and construction of the Steve Biko Centre in Ginsburg in the Eastern Cape which will comprise a museum, an archives centre, a community media centre, performance spaces and a commemorative garden. In this way, new generations will be able to understand their history with confidence and renewed consciousness.

In this way and through these initiatives, we are beginning to make strides, as South Africans, to preserve and promote our creative and humane endeavours, as Comrade O R Tambo coined it. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr H P MALULEKA: Hon Chairperson, hon members and our beautiful guests in the gallery, lo kovhela [good evening]. The celebration of heritage must seek to contribute to the resolution of three interrelated contradictions, namely class, race and gender oppression.

In the context of arts and culture and the celebration of heritage, these contradictions impact on socioeconomic, cultural, religious, family and other relations in all communities. Their impact presents deep-seated challenges that could require strategic transformation in order to build values of a just and caring society. Our debate should promote an understanding that there is a dialectical relationship between heritage and culture, social cohesion and quality of life.

South Africa’s rich heritage has been recorded and stocked in the libraries in both rural and urban communities, but not in its totality. In this regard the ANC policy emphasises that arts and culture should be preserved and promoted as part of heritage. Moreover, the production of arts and crafts should be financially resourced and encouraged among the communities.

This task requires the capacity of the economy to allocate funds for the purposes of building a unitary state. In a diverse, constitutional, democratic society like ours, the impact of heritage and culture is profound and central to enhancing the values of a just and caring society.

Fortunately, there is tremendous progress within this area, also as far as ensuring that heritage and culture is popularised, preserved, democratised and opened to all South Africans. Many now serve as a rich resource for communities. Community needs have been integrated into appropriately restructured management of heritage resources.

The ANC government must continue to strengthen partnerships across society to ensure social cohesion and a better quality of life.We must consolidate partnerships across society to strengthen social cohesion and ensure that our nation achieves the values of a caring society. Indeed, the need to build co—operation among all South Africans applies more so to matters of spiritual sustenance, such as beliefs and moral values, which are as communal as they are profoundly personal.

This we must do, proceeding from the understanding that comprehensive social transformation entails changing the material conditions of all South Africans for the better, but also ensuring that we forge a nation inspired by values of human solidarity. It is the combination of these factors that describes the civilisation of the national democracy that we seek to build.

We must continue to encourage the development and promotion of traditions, religious expressions and other belief systems which are consistent with the values of our country’s Constitution. These form a critical part of the nation’s collective resource in the promotion of humane values. In this regard we must seek to emphasise that which is common and good for our society.

I believe in linking the values and quality of life firmly to key priorities such as access to health, housing, rural development and anticorruption. These are of vital importance to ensure that values are entrenched as a key component of development. The Ready to Govern document argues that, through arts and culture, a sense of national identity and pride can be cultivated.

We must promote the national democratic revolutions’ revolutionary values of morality, and these long-standing values must inform the new national democratic society as articulated in the ANC’s 2007 Strategy and Tactics document. The society we seek to build must have a humane value system, a strong revolutionary morality and must espouse the principle of selflessness and a deep-rooted respect for truth and honesty.

The Strategy and Tactics document argues that a national democratic society should be founded on a thriving economy. It should be an economy that promotes development, decent jobs and rural co-operatives to ensure national prosperity. These include vegetable gardens and the development of letsema [collective farming].

In many communities, Heritage Month is associated with agridevelopment activities. Critical to this is the value system based on human solidarity and appreciation of the culture of hard work and zeal.

This debate takes place during the month of September. This is the month that is central to the area of agriculture and rural development because our diverse communities are united at this time of the year in ploughing their lands and cultivating their gardens in order to plant maize, vegetables and fodder for their animals.

Great strides have been taken since 1994 in the project of nation-building. Key steps have been taken to advance the national democratic project of reconciliation, patriotism and a proudly South African identity. These accomplishments are rooted in longstanding ANC traditions such as nonracialism, nonsexism, nontribalism and unity.

In this regard, social cohesion and revolutionary moral values and quality of life should be linked to building the infrastructural conditions for a united nation. Through appropriate policies it should overcome the legacy of the Group Areas Act, apartheid social geography, inequalities and uneven development. Through our programmes for housing, social security, quality health care and sport and recreation, we aim to continue to build a life of better quality and values. Housing is not just about building houses but also about transforming our cities and towns; building cohesive, sustainable and caring communities with closer access to work and social amenities, including sports and recreation facilities; and a better health system with the necessary hospital infrastructure.

Our health system and the provision of antiretroviral drugs are aimed at empowering those living with HIV and Aids. Similarly, the new economic path must succeed in creating decent jobs, ensuring quality of life and closing the gap between our people in both income and wage.

We must proceed from the understanding that comprehensive social transformation entails changing the material conditions of all South Africans for a better quality life. It also entails ensuring that we forge a nation inspired by values of human solidarity. It is the combination of these factors that describe the national democracy that we seek to build.

All sectors of society must ensure an overarching South African identity, recognising the diversity of the country’s people. We need to promote pride in our heritage, including our African identity and our common humanity as global citizens. The 2010 Soccer World Cup has left us with a rich heritage that we must preserve and promote. Central to this endeavour is the ongoing mobilisation of all South Africans to strengthen the nation’s moral fibre, informed by the ideals of human compassion and solidarity.

In conclusion, the debate on social cohesion, heritage and values must not be seen in a socioeconomic vacuum. Of significant importance are the improvement of our country’s economy and the quality of life of our people.

Planting and harvesting for a future quality life for our people is the hope that heritage brings. In that sense, September is not only looking to the future, but also backward-looking to improve programmes of the past in order to ensure unity and a life of quality for our people. I thank you.

Dr A LOTRIET: Hon Chair, this month we celebrate our heritage and it is usually a time of looking back and reflecting on our heritage. Heritage is often defined as what we inherit, what we value or what we want to pass on to future generations. In this sense we tend to refer to our tangible and intangible heritage, our cultural capital.

During Heritage Month, we celebrate the rich diversity of this cultural capital. I do believe that at this particular juncture where we are in our country today, it is perhaps more important and imperative to reflect on the values that we have today, which will be the heritage that we pass on to future generations. What is the heritage that they will reflect on, and will it be worth celebrating? This is a tremendous responsibility, as we are the authors of our own history and heritage.

When we talk about living out the values of a just and caring society, most people would agree that they wish to live in a just society. The question, however, is: What is meant by a just society? This question has been asked by numerous philosophers, leaders and academics, and their answers differ greatly, depending on their ideological context.

I would, however, propose the following. A just society should be seen as more than the mechanical application of the rules of justice. Inherent in this is the understanding that justice, and in this sense also fairness of access, must be actual, not just theoretical or something that lip service is paid to.

A caring society refers to a positive state of affairs where there is social justice and equality, free from oppressive forces; access to quality education, adequate health and social services; economic prosperity; adequate housing; a clean and safe environment; support for community structures; and the opportunity to engage in cultural and religious activities.

The aim for a just and caring society is one in which all people, with no exceptions, have the rights, freedom and capacity to access services and resources to enhance their wellbeing, and where the most disadvantaged and marginalised members of society are given extra support to ensure such access; or, stated in a different way, an open-opportunity society for all.

But let us examine some of the values of a just and caring society and reflect on where we are and to what extent we do, in fact, live out the values. The first value is that of respect, where the intrinsic worth of all individuals is recognised.

Every human being has a unique worth and all people are entitled to be treated with honour and respect. Respect is a cornerstone of justice and caring. Injustice and neglect can only flourish where respect for others is absent.

Where are we? What are we leaving as a heritage? Are we leaving behind as a heritage health workers prevented by force and violence to care for patients as seen in the recent strike; teachers preventing others by force to teach; and even worse, teachers preventing learners to learn and write exams?

What values of justness and caring do these learners take with them on their journey into the future? Perhaps the answer can already be seen in learners attacking other learners to prevent them from writing exams, as it is happening right now.

Another value of a just and caring society is opportunities for participation. This is a society where people are given choices about how they live, where they have the means to make those choices and where people are not only beneficiaries, but active participants. This is where they have the right and freedom and capacity to take responsibility for their own destiny.

What do we have in our country today? Do people have the ability to make their own choices and have access to opportunities or do they have to belong to the ruling party to get access to opportunities? In other words, the value that is fostered is one of who you know, what your party- political and family connections are and not what your merit is.

A just and caring society is one where everyone has equal access to information. But what kind of just society are we creating when this government proposes a Bill, aimed at keeping information from members of society; when media tribunals are proposed? What are the values that we leave as heritage? Is it values of silence and secrecy?

If we reflect on what our society looks like today, it is not the embodiment of a just and caring society. The problem is that we treat values as something out there, something that we can create and establish commissions and movements for. And we believe a few projects and workshops will make us a society that lives out these values. But the reality is that values have to be part of our daily lives at every level and have to be the guiding force in all our activities.

Every act that defies the values of justness and caring, every contradiction in what is said and what is practiced, erodes the heritage that we leave to future generations.

Mrs M A A NJOBE: Chairperson, hon Minister, and hon members, in Cope we have a very strong belief in the rights of individuals and communities to live by their religious views and to uphold their cultural heritage. This is because we stand for the rights that are guaranteed in our Constitution. Heritage Day must, therefore, play an intricate but pivotal role in nation- building in our country.

Every Heritage Day should serve as a milestone to determine how many more obstacles we have to overcome as a nation on our journey to a common national identity. We conceived Heritage Day as a way to reinforce the political compromise we have reached. On this year’s Heritage Day we should set aside differences in political affiliations, creed, race and religion and share our culture and learn from one another.

During the World Cup we demonstrated to ourselves and to the world our pride in being South Africans. There was such unity among all South Africans, regardless of age and race. We all want to be South Africans because we understand the importance and significance of having a common bond that ties all of us together in spite of our diversity.

South Africa is today the world’s most unequal society, unfortunately. Millions of our people are out of work. Poverty and destitution are endemic. For many the dream for a better life for all has turned into a living nightmare. Heritage Day must give us time to pause and reflect. Is this the kind of society we set out to forge in 1994 — a society in which social equality will be stifled?

Unity and national identity are universal values that all nations seek to promote. All over the world there is a need for nations to forge together regardless of history, race, age or culture. For example, the United States will celebrate for the whole month the contribution that Hispanic Americans have made, stretching from today, 15 September 2010, to 15 October 2010. During this time, Hispanic heritage and culture will be celebrated and recognised.

I want this House to ponder for a moment the possibility of such a move in our own country. We ourselves have so much to offer because we are such a diverse group of people and, in the process, we could even create a tourism bonanza. We are a unique country because the cradle of human society is right here on our doorstep. We are unique also in being the first country ever to settle deep political divisions around a negotiating table rather than resorting to a destructive war to settle the conflict.

On this day, therefore, it is not only important to make a potjie and samp, have a braai, drink umqombothi and dish out a delicious Malay curry, but also to look back at our history and commemorate those who fought for the political and cultural freedom that we enjoy today, including the values that they fought for.

It is proper and fitting that Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu has been decreed patron of this day. What a major role he played in fighting for liberation and then consolidating democracy in South Africa! He was the first black South African Anglican Archbishop of Cape Town and Primate of the Church of the Province of Southern Africa.

He has been active in the defence of human rights and used his high profile to campaign for the oppressed. He has campaigned to fight Aids, TB, homophobia, poverty and racism. Tutu received the Nobel Peace Price in 1984, the Albert Schweitzer Prize for Humanitarianism in 1986, the Gandhi Peace Prize in 2005, and many more too numerous for me to mention within the limited time that I have. This is an impressive track record for one man.

However, we too have all played our little roles in bringing South Africa to where it is today. The ordinary people, young and old, fought against the apartheid regime as did the social and political movements that were organised by and in which ordinary people participated.

Many people fought and died so that we could be free and live in peace, unafraid of one another. We salute them and in remembering them we must take the work they began forward.

We should all be proud that we have the privilege to celebrate such a day in freedom. The very fact that this day exists shows that we have truly come a long way. Therefore, Cope encourages all South Africans to enjoy the coming public holiday and to celebrate our freedom and, above all, the values of our common humanity.

I join those who praised the women up there; they really do look very beautiful. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M N Oliphant): Malungu ahloniphekile, bengicela ukuthi nehlise amazwi. Abanye bethu iminyaka ngicabanga ukuthi ihambile, kanti abanye baba nenkinga yokuthi baphathwa amazinyo bawakhipha isikhathi singakafiki; manje uma nihlebeza ungathi igundwane lihamba. Ngakho-ke ngiyanicela ukuthi nehlise amazwi. Ngicela oSotswebhu njengoba bethembisile namhlanje ekuseni ukuthi bazoqinisekisa ukuthi amalungu awawubangi umsindo. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Hon members, could you please lower your voices. Some of us are old, and others had problems with their teeth which they had removed before it was time to do so. Now when you are whispering it sounds like a moving mouse. So please lower your voices. Chief Whips, please honour the promises that you made this morning; you promised that you will make sure that the members do not make a noise.]

Mrs H S MSWELI: Chairperson, we, including the hon members around me, the House, this Parliament, in fact all South Africans today, are the product of the rich and varied heritage of this our land, South Africa.

Heritage Day marks the day on which South Africans come together and celebrate what it means to be truly South African, what it means to be united, and what it means to have a common vision arising from a rich and varied cultural diversity, which truly means no boundaries, as it is a celebration of our unity in diversity.

Therefore, it behoves us to honour and, at the same time, showcase to the rest of the world that we are one human race, sharing a common evolutionary vision of a harmonious and unified tomorrow.

The IFP commends both our leaders, His Excellency Prince Buthelezi and our Zulu monarch, King Goodwill Zwelithini, for the manner in which they both emphasise Zulu cultural heritage in the improvement and upliftment of the Zulu people. Two examples in that regard are the umkhosi womhlanga or reed dance and the male circumcision rite.

The reed dance, which encourages the tradition of remaining a virgin until marriage, and the male circumcision rite, which is now performed by qualified medical practitioners, directly address the scourge and spread of HIV and Aids.

In conclusion, and in the commemoration and spirit of King Shaka, the King of amaZulu — who himself played a most resolute and, in fact, destiny- defining role in the unification of the entire Zulu nation - the IFP would like to see the entire nation of South Africa come together on Heritage Day, united under one common cause, namely a better and brighter tomorrow for all South Africans. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mrs R E NYALUNGU: Chairperson, hon Ministers, the Deputy Ministers present here and our guests in the gallery …

Ndzi ri perile. [Good evening.]

Allow me, Chairperson, to say that our assessment of the contribution of culture towards social cohesion and a caring society resonates well with the Reconstruction and Development Programme, RDP, when it provides a description that arts and culture are within the system of socialisation and reflect the whole organisation of society. Our appreciation of the Heritage Day debate recognises that cultural expression and arts and culture permeates all aspects of society and are integral parts of social and economic life.

However, the 1994 democratic breakthrough sought to affirm and promote the rich and diverse expression of South African culture by giving constitutional right to all people to practise their culture, language, beliefs and customs.

In the post-1994 situation, the ANC’s key task has been to promote the development of a unifying national culture representing the aspirations of all South Africans. The key task includes promotion of the principles of nonracialism, nonsexism, human rights and democracy.

This includes the task of conserving and promoting South Africa’s national heritage. Part of this perspective places arts education squarely within the national education curricula. This pertains to preprimary schools and the secondary and tertiary levels, including informal educational structures.

In creating cultural expression, I have no doubt, Chairperson, that the language, dance, songs, symbols and art and crafts are expressions of heritage. They transmit ideas, expressions, collective memory and the interpretation of the cultural value systems.

Our country is a multilingual society with a significant number of languages, and it is this diversity that becomes the strength of our heritage and democratic values. In this regard, the ANC policy recognises, protects and develops all languages.

Our Bill of Rights constitutes a cornerstone of democracy in South Africa. The Constitution enshrines the rights of the people in our country and affirms the democratic values of human dignity, equality and freedom. These values contribute to the growth of our democracy. Section 30 states that —

Everyone has a right to use the language and to participate in the cultural life of their choice, but no one exercising these rights may do so in a manner that is inconsistent with any provision of the Bill of Rights.

This section provides that diverse cultures and the development of languages are not to be used for political cessation from the rest of South Africa, the promotion of division, ethnic mobilisation, narrow identities or chauvinistic Africanism.

Section 31(1) states that —

Persons belonging to a cultural, religious or linguistic community may not be denied the right, with other members of that community, to enjoy their cultural practices, religion and the use of their language.

This section promotes vibrant development of constitutional values amongst different communities, particularly the historically oppressed communities.

In the past 16 years, there has been a concerted effort to build South Africa as a nation state, to build national common identity and South Africanness. We have made advances to reverse the legacy of apartheid colonialism. Our nation achieved some values of a caring society inspired by the traits of human compassion, which informed our struggle against apartheid colonialism. Indeed, the need for spiritual matters, sustenance of such beliefs and moral values are as communal as they are profoundly personal.

Key to the contribution of culture towards a caring society is the promotion of the principle of ubuntu. This is a principle that promotes human solidarity. It recognises human responsibility towards the needs of others.

The principle of ubuntu must permeate all levels of society. It must be promoted in government, civil society, nongovernmental organisations, NGOs, the education system, and at justice and policy levels. This requires a strong developmental state with the capacity to mobilise economic resources. The ubuntu project could help create conditions for a caring society.

The ANC-led government remains committed to creating a united, cohesive society out of our fragmented past. As hon Comrade President Zuma once said:

As the ANC we committed to promoting unity in diversity and to developing a shared value system, based on the spirit of community solidarity and a caring society. Our shared value system should encourage us to become active citizens in the renewal of our country. We must build a common national identity and patriotism.

Ubuntu has always been the cornerstone of South African society whereby South Africans are united by one common objective — to help those who could not help themselves.

I would argue that the road towards social cohesion and development of a caring society requires transformation of economic and social relations. This type of transformation does not take us away from the route towards such a caring society. This articulation was affirmed in the 2007 Strategy and Tactics document.

In this regard, the national democratic revolution is about transforming the power relations that reproduced colonialism of a special type and that relate to subcultural expressions, alien cultures, subcultures and crass materialism.

Chairperson, the values of a just, caring society, including Ubuntu-Botho principles, should be integrally connected to social structure. Their success or failure could depend on the nature and task of society in terms of addressing priorities, such as levels of crime and corruption; unemployment and poverty; available decent jobs and social equity; and the degree of the wage and income gap.

In this regard, social cohesion and a caring society should be linked to building the infrastructural conditions for and development of a caring society. It should overcome the legacy of apartheid colonialism. We must change apartheid social geography, inequalities and uneven development and do so through a new economic growth path.

Our Strategy and Tactics document argues that a national democratic society should be founded on a growing economy. Accordingly, it could be an economy that promotes development and decent jobs in order to meet our government’s seven priorities.

I believe that the values of a caring society, inspired by the traits of human compassion, informed our national struggle against national oppression. Indeed, the need to work together among all our people became relevant more than ever before in the 16 years of our democracy.

As the ANC, our premise should move from the understanding that comprehensive social transformation entails changing the socioeconomic conditions of all our people. In doing so, we should be inspired by values of collective solidarity. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr S Z NTAPANE: Chairperson, hon members and members of the public in the gallery, we would do well to remember that culture is not a static set of traditions and practices. Culture happens around us at this very moment. The lifestyles and habits of today will become the culture of tomorrow.

In this sense we can take great pride in how we have celebrated our heritage and come close to each other as a nation in the run-up and eventual hosting of the Fifa Soccer World Cup. South Africans of all walks of life took ownership of the event and together we forged a deeper sense of being united in our diversity.

The sense of togetherness and achievement in the wake of the event should inspire us to continue reaching for greatness on the world stage. July 2010 represents a significant marker on the road to nation-building and will be remembered as an important cultural occasion for many generations to come. The flip side of the same coin is that today we also face the danger of establishing many negative things as part of our culture because this have become common lifestyle choices and habits. Fast food, fast cars and fast money seem to be the sole motivation of many people, including many of the elite.

We need to resist this culture of conspicuous consumption and greed as well as inevitable corruption that is required to sustain it. This selfish lifestyle and predatory behaviour runs contrary to our most valued and commonly shared cultural values as captured by the word ubuntu.

Instead of promoting that central tenet of our heritage, namely that the individual prospers when the community prospers, there are too many people in power who are popularising the theory that the individual should prosper at the expense of the community.

Another disturbing trend that runs contrary to our heritage, but which threatens to become part of our culture, is language intolerance. Two years ago many of us warned that unwarranted and personal attacks on the Head of State will surely set the precedent for similar behaviour in future.

Today we already see this culture in certain quarters. That same reckless intolerance informed the wild abandon with which various factions in the ruling party and its partners have attacked each other and the media. It fuelled unnecessary and violent trends. [Time expired.]

Mrs C DUDLEY: Chair, living according to the values of a just and caring society is an awesome challenge! Most of us get this right to some degree at times — perhaps not the hon Mike Ellis — but the rest of us fall short a lot of the time.

Today my attention has been drawn to what I consider one of my shortcomings. I cringe a little at the idea that, as Jawaharlal Nehru says:

We are known by the way we treat our animals.

Collectively, as South Africans we should be more than cringing right now at the systematic destruction of our wildlife heritage, in particular rhino, through years of unprosecuted thieving, which erodes any facade of our being a caring society.

In April the Minister said a special national wildlife reaction unit was to be set up to combat the activities of organised crime syndicates engaged in the poaching of rhino horn.

With a total of 4 661 environmental crime cases reported nationally, there was a compelling case for the establishment of environmental courts with prosecutors and magistrates trained for environmental crimes.

Referring to water issues last month, she said that the launch of the first courts would be in the near future. Recent official reports accusing the chief operating officer of the Mpumalanga Tourism and Parks Agency and the principal officer of the agency’s provident fund of poaching rhino horn in the province point to the urgent need for these courts.

The World Wildlife Fund’s African Rhino Programme has asked people to take action during this month to help protect our remaining rhino populations and also to support people like Gilberto Vicente, who was murdered in August, as they risk their lives daily against the sophisticated, ruthless and heavily armed international criminal gangs who run the illegal rhino horn trade.

The month will culminate in Make Noise for Rhinos Day, during which people are asked to blow their vuvuzelas at 13h00 on Wednesday, 22 September in a symbolic call on government to take this issue seriously, strengthen law enforcement and impose strict legal penalties as successful deterrents. Thank you. [Time expired.]

Mr M H STEELE: Madam Chairperson, hon members, this year we should all be celebrating the contribution of the Indian community to South African life. 2010 is the 150th anniversary of the arrival of the first Indian indentured labourers in 1860.

According to research, some 152 000 people of Indian origin settled mainly in what is now KwaZulu-Natal, many as indentured labourers, others as free settlers, traders, artisans and farmers.

The subsequent discriminatory treatment and legislation lumped all the descendants of these immigrants together as one single racial category of Indians.

Research has shown that the diversity of these immigrants is an important part of their story. Hon Singh, I’m sure you will learn something. There were regional and language differences, for instance, between the Northern Hindi speakers and the Southern Tamil or Telugu speakers, which differences were themselves overlain by differences in religion with Hindu, Muslim and Christian adherents.

The very economic success of these Indian settlers in liberating themselves from indentured servitude and poverty played a part in the subsequent racialised conflict in KwaZulu-Natal. The competition for land and trading opportunities that led to the imposition of the now notorious Group Areas Act had a huge and destructive effect on Indian communities and the psychological scars are still felt today.

If we are going to be a just and caring society we need to acknowledge this. Their story of disposition and removal is one that needs to be recorded and respected if we are to truly demonstrate a respect for our heritage. The oral history of individuals and communities need to be captured as part of our cultural heritage as a nation and to heal the hurts of the past.

The story of loss and alienation is not the full story of that community either. Their contribution to the political, economic and religious life of this country has been enormous. The struggle for democracy and the adoption of the 1996 Constitution would have been very different had it not been for the values of respect for persons in law, tolerance and the sanctity of life which the Hindu and Muslim spiritual traditions both emphasised.

To promote a democratic respect for heritage also means ensuring the availability and accessibility of cultural artefact. We are learning rapidly, for example, that cultural heritage is not only a democratic obligation and part of a tradition preserving the legacy of the past, but it is also big business.

The interest in cultural heritage translates into a growing market for heritage tourism. To provide access to our different cultural traditions is the challenge for our heritage managers. Within my own constituency of Pietermaritzburg, there is a modestly-sized municipal art gallery, the Tatham. The handful of staff have embarked on a project to place its entire catalogued art collection on the internet. Nearly half of the whole collection, some 600 works, have over a period of six years now been photographed and digitalised for public web access. That is achieving their mission of heritage outreach. The point is: How much do we value having such a project and why are the council and its staff having to conduct such a valuable exercise with their resources?

Making heritage accessible to all and selling it as an attractive tourist commodity is part of ensuring its commercial viability. It means that all our spheres of government need to seize on the opportunities which are presented and to market our nation and our heritage.

When the Victorian architectural jewel, which is the centre of Pietermaritzburg, is allowed to decay into grime and neglect because of the position of its municipal finances, we should all be worried. When this happens because of the factional infighting of elements within the ruling ANC, who have been carrying out a fratricidal struggle for over three or four years, this is a public disgrace.

Respecting heritage means practising the virtues of good governance, and this is something the ANC in Maritzburg has to learn the hard way. That is not the way we go about cultivating justice and a caring society. Thank you. [Applause.] Mrs T J TSHIVHASE: Mudzulatshidulo, Nnḓu i ṱhonifheaho na vhueni hashu vhu re ngei kha vhugalatenga, ndi masiari. [Chairperson, hon members and our visitors sitting in the gallery, good afternoon.]

Through the colonial and apartheid years …

… vhathu vhashu vho pfiswa u vhavha lune vho vha vha sa ḓivhi zwauri musi hu tshi pfi u muthu, ho vha hu tshi vha ho vhonwa mini kha iwe. Hezwo zwithu zwoṱhe zwo ḓo ri sia ri songo tsha vha vha mashudu nga tshenetsho tshifhinga. Vhuthu hashu a ri ngo kona u vhu sumbedza, sa zwine ra khou zwi vhona ṋamusi. Muvhuso wa tshiṱalula na makoloni e a vha e hone, vho ri tambudza zwi vhavhaho vhukuma.

Fhedzi-ha, u ḓa ha demokirasi ya Afurika Tshipembe, zwo sia ri tshi vho kona u vha na zwiimiswa zwine ra vho vhonala ngazwo. Izwo zwo sumbedza ḓivhazwakale, nḓila ya u ṱhonifha na vhufa ha vhadzulapo vhoṱhe. Ri nga bveledza vhukoni hashu hoṱhe u itela uri ri sa tsha thivheliwa kha zwine ra tea u tshilisa zwone.

Ḓivhazwakale ya vhathu vhashu, yo sumbedza nḓila i si yone. Vho vha vha tshi nyadziwa na u dzhiiwa vha si vha ndeme. Ngauri zwa zwino shango ḽashu ḽo vhofholowa, ḽi vho ḓivha-vho zwauri musi hu tshi pfi Muvenḓa hu khou ambiwa mini. Ri vho zwi ḓivha zwauri musi hu tshi pfi muthu u amba Tshitshangana kana TshiXhosa, u tea u ambara nga nḓila-ḓe. Mvelele yawe i tea u ṱhonifhiwa. Hezwo zwithu zwoṱhe zwo ḓisa phambano. Mbofholowo yo ḓela u ri ṱuṱuwedza uri ri ite ngauralo.

Vhukoni vhune ra vha naho, ho ḓiswa nga mbofholowo. Hu na ṱhanziela dza uri vho zwi gudelaho vha kone u zwi vhona zwauri muthu arali a tshi tshila e kha zwa hawe, u a lelutshelwa nga zwithu zwoṱhe. Ifa ḽeneḽo ḽe ra ḽi ṋewa, ḽine vhaṅwe na u ḽi vhona a vha ḽi vhoni, ḽi bva kha vhomakhulukuku vhashu, u itela uri ri sale ri tshi ya phanḓa na vhutshilo. Vho ri ifa iḽo, ḽi bvele phanḓa u bva kha mirafho u ya kha miṅwe, u itela uri ri vhe na vhuḓikukumusi kha zwithu zwoṱhe.

Zwine ra zwi ḓivha ndi zwauri, musi ri tshi kha ḓi aluwa, ho vha hu na zwine vhathu vhashu vha zwi ḓivha sa ifa ḽa u tshila, ḽine ḽa ḓa na maitele a matshilisano, ane a vha dzi … (Translation of Tshivenda paragraphs follows.)

[… our people had to endure a system that deprived them of their sense of identity and continuity. This deprived us of our worthiness at that time. We never expressed our sense of being in the way we do today. The apartheid regime and the colonists treated us very badly.

However, the dawn of democracy in South Africa gave birth to institutions that display our identity, that showed the history, a way of respect and the legacy of all citizens. We can develop all our potential so that nothing can hinder us from living a better life.

The history of our people had shown the wrong path. They were disrespected and undermined. Now that our country has been liberated, it recognises a black person. We now know that if a person speaks Xitsonga or isiXhosa, which traditional attire they should wear. Their culture must be respected. All these things brought diversity. Freedom has come to encourage us to do likewise.

The ability we have was brought about by liberation. There is confirmation from the experts that if a person lives according to his culture all things become easier. This legacy was given by our forefathers for us to continue with life. They said this legacy must pass on from one generation to another so that we may have pride in everything. When we were growing up, there were things that our people knew as the legacy of life that prescribe the way of living, which are …]

… worship rights, rights of passage, birth rights, wedding and funeral rituals, oaths of allegiance, traditional legal systems and ritual kinship ceremonies.

Zwoṱhe zwo vha zwi si nga si vhonale arali hu songo vha na mbofholowo ye ra fhira khayo. Ri na mvelele dzine dza tea u sumbedza nḓivho dzine ra vha nadzo. Ndi musi ri tshi kona u amba nga luambo lwashu, u fana na zwino ndi tshi khou amba. Tshifhingani tsha kale nyambo nnzhi dzo vha dzi sa pfali. Wo vha u tshi ri u amba Tshivenḓa, Tshitshangana kana TshiZulu, wa vhonala sa tshiḓaela tshi sa koni u amba luambo. U vha tshiḓaela nga nḓila-ḓe u tshi khou amba luambo lwau lwa ḓamuni?

Ro vhuya ra gudiswa na u amba tshivhuru. Hu tshi pfi … (Translation of Tshivenda paragraphs follows.)

[All these things would have never happened were it not because of the liberation that we achieved. We have cultures that reflect our knowledge; for instance, when we speak our mother tongue, like I am doing right now. In the past most languages were unknown. If you spoke Tshivenda, Xitsonga or isiZulu, you looked like a fool who did not know how to speak the language. How could one be stupid when one speaks one’s own mother tongue?

We were even taught to speak Afrikaans. They said …]

… jy lieg soos ‘n koerant. Nou lyk dit asof die koerant nie meer lieg nie … [… you are lying like a newspaper. Now it seems as if the newspaper is not lying anymore …]

… ngauri i sokou amba zwe ya sa vhudziswe.

Hu na nḓivho ine musi ri tshi khou tshila, ra tea u i tsireledza. (Translation of Tshivenda sentences follows.)

[… because it just says things which were never asked.

There is some knowledge that we should protect in life.]

We also have traditional craftsmanship and herbal medicine …

… hune ra wana hu na miri ya tshirema, ine ya tea u sumbedziwa u itela uri ni kone u alafhiwa nga tshirema. Vhathu vhashu vha ḓivha vhuṅanga ha mishonga yo raloho. Hezwo zwithu zwo vha zwo dzidzivhala, ri tshi vho tshila zwi si tsheho, ngauri nḓivho yashu yo vha yo bwelwa fhasi, nahone vhathu vhashu vha si tsha ḓivha zwine vha khou ita zwone.

Arali ri sa koni u lwa nndwa ya u ḓivhofholola, ṋamusi ro vha ri tshi ḓo pfi vho nnyi? Ro vha ri tshi ḓo vha ri sa ḓivhei. U fhambana ha mvelele hu tea u dzhielwa nṱha ngauri hu ita uri ri gude khadzo. Zwithu zwine ra zwi ita, ri a kona u alusana ngazwo. Zwa zwino ri vho kona u tshilisana sa vhathu vha Afurika Tshipembe ngauri ri khou shumisa yeneiḽa nḓivho ye ra i ṋewa nga vhomakhulukuku washu. Vho ri rathisela nḓivho ya vhufa, u itela uri ri kone u tshila sa vhathu vha ḓikukumusaho nga zwine vha vha nazwo.

Kha guvhangano ḽa vhu 52, ANC yo ḓivhofha na u ṱuṱuwedza vhathu vha Afurika Tshipembe uri vha farane, hu sa vhe na tshiṱalula nga muvhala, nga mbeu na zwoṱhe zwine ra nga ṱalulana ngazwo. ANC yo ombedzela uri hezwo zwithu zwoṱhe, zwi songo vha hone. Rine ro dzula ra zwi vhona zwauri ndi ngoho ri khou tea u vha vhathu vhathihi vha tshilisanaho. Mvelele dzashu dzi tea u sumbedzisa uri ndi zwifhio zwine ra fana ngazwo ngauri dzi a ṱangana vhukati. Hezwi zwi sia ri tshi kona u tshila sa vhathu, ri tshi humbula zwe vhomakhulukuku vhashu vha ri siela zwone uri ri zwi shumise na matshelo.

Ngauri heiḽa nḓivho yo shumiswaho mulovha, ri khou tea u i shumisa ṋamusi, matshelo, na kha tshakha dzi ḓaho, u itela uri hune ra dzula hone hu vhofholowe. Ri tea u kona u amba nyambo dzashu na u tevhedzela vhurereli hashu ri sa tsha imiwa phanḓa. Makoloni na tshiṱalula zwo ḓa zwa ri fhambanya, ngeno ri vhadzulapo vha Afurika Tshipembe roṱhe. [U vhanda zwanḓa.]

Ri songo tenda u luṱanywa nga ḽifhedzi. Riṋe ri a zwi ḓivha zwauri musi ri tshi tshila sa vhathu vhathihi, ri vha na mulalo nahone ri a kona u ṱhaḓulana mihwalo kha zwithu zwinzhi. Hezwo zwithu ro zwi gudiswa nga vhomakhulukuku washu. Ri tea u dzula ri tshi funana ngauri mulalo ndi ifa. U nga balelwa u tshila nga mulalo arali wo gudiswa u tshila ngawo? Arali wo funḓedzwa u funa muhura wau u nga balewa, ngeno Bivhili yo ḓi tou zwi amba? (Translation of Tshivenda paragraphs follows.) [… where we find indigenous plants which we must preserve for traditional healing and medicines. Our people have knowledge of these traditional healing practices. These practices had faded and we were living without them because our knowledge was buried and our people didn’t know what they were doing.

If we did not fight to liberate ourselves, where would we be today? We would be unknown to the world. Diverse cultures need to be taken very seriously because we learn from them. Things which we do provide common ground for the promotion of mutual understanding and enriching one another. We are now able to live together as people of South Africa because we are using the same knowledge which we inherited from our forefathers. They have passed the knowledge of heritage to us so that we are able to live with pride and embrace what we have.

At its 52nd National Conference, the ANC committed itself and encouraged the people of South Africa to unite, and not to discriminate on the basis of colour, gender and other things which we may use to discriminate against each other. The ANC emphasised that all these should not happen. We have realised the need to unite and to live together. Our cultures must display their commonality since they have similarities. This makes us to live as a people, remembering the heritage which our forefathers left behind for us to embrace even in future.

The knowledge used by our forefathers should be used now, in future and by future generations to ensure freedom. We should be able to speak our languages and to observe our religions freely. The colonialists and apartheid systems have separated us, while we are all citizens of South Africa. [Applause.]

Let us not allow anyone to stir up enmity and discord among us for nothing. We know that when we live together as one, we have peace and we are able to carry each other’s burdens. We have learned this from our forefathers. We must always love one another because peace is a legacy. How can you fail to live in peace if you have been taught to do so? If you have been taught to love your neighbour, how can you fail, when even the Bible said so?]

The Bible says:

Love your neighbour as you love yourself.

Hezwo zwithu ro zwi gudiswa nga vhomakhulukuku washu. Vho ri vhudza uri ri tea u tshila nga yeneyo nḓila. Ro zwi pfa a si kale, musi Minisiṱa Vho Lulu Xingwana vha tshi ri vhudza uri bola yashu, ine ya kha ḓi tou bva u vha hone zwenezwino, yo ri ṱanganya. Arali i ngoho zwauri mvelele i ya kona u ṱanganya vhathu, ri khou kona u zwi vhona ngauri ro vha ro vhuisa ḽifhasi ḽoṱhe fhano. Afurika a i ngo vhuya naa? Ḽifhasi a ḽi ngo vhuya? Ḽo vhuiswa ngauri ro vha ri tshi khou kovhekana dzimvelele. Zwithu zwo vha mvumvusaho, zwo vha zwithu zwa mvelele. Na zwino vha ri vha funa u vhuya ngauri Afurika Tshipembe ndi shango ḽavhuḓi ḽi tshileaho khaḽo. Vha ri fhano hu a ḓifha nahone vhathu vha hone vha na vhuthu.

Hu na phungo yo iswaho nga vho riaḓivha musi vha tshi vho sokou amba zwithu zwi sa itwi nga vhathu vha fhano Afurika Tshipembe. Vha tshimbila vha tshi amba uri hu ḓo vha na vhavhambadza-mivhili vha swikaho miḽioni mbili vhane vha ḓo ḓa fhano.

O vha a si mazwifhi ayo? Izwo zwithu zwi sumbedza tshumisano? Riṋe a ri ngo vhuya ra vha vhona ngauri ro gudiswa uri ri vhe na vhuthu, ri hulisane na u ṱhonifhana. Vha kha ḓi ḓo vhuya kha ḽino shango ngauri vho zwi vhona uri mvelele ya fhano Afurika Tshipembe ndi ya matshilisano avhuḓi.

Kha zwa vhubindudzi, musi vhathu vha tshi ita zwithu zwavho, riṋe ri ḓi ṱongisa nga dzi satellite dish dzashu. Khedzi vha tshi khou dzi vhona. [Maseo.] [U vhanda zwanḓa.] Hezwo zwithu zwi sumbedza mvelele. Vhakalaha na vhakegulu khevhala vho ambara vho tou ḓitama. A vha tamisi? U tou vhona makhulu wau vho fara zwone-zwone zwine rine ra tea u fara khazwo.

Ndo ita na u vhudza vhaṅwe uri ndi kale Vhavenḓa vha tshi ḓivha thekinoḽodzhi. Satellite dish dzi tshi ḓa, riṋe ro vha ro no vha nadzo. [Maseo.] Hezwo zwo vha zwi tshi khou sumbedza zwauri vhudavhidzani na maṅwe mashango zwo vha zwi hone ngauri ri na vhuthu nahone ri a kona u tshila na vhaṅwe vhathu.

Nga aneo maipfi, ndi khou livhuwa u kovhekana, u kunguwedza na u pembelela vhufa ha mvelele vhune ra khou ḓitongisa ngaho ṋamusi. Ndi a livhuwa. [U vhanda zwanḓa.] (Translation of Tshivenda paragraphs follows.)

[We have learned this from our forefathers. They taught us to live this way. We heard Minister Lulu Xingwana telling us about how our Soccer World Cup that took place not long ago united us. It is true that culture unites people, we can see that we brought the whole world here. Was Africa not united? Was the world not united? It was united because we were sharing our cultures. They were entertained by cultural activities. They said they want to come back because South Africa is a beautiful country to live in. They said it is nice here and people have humanity.

There was some rumour by some journalist saying bad things about South Africa. They spread the rumour that there would be more than two million prostitutes coming to this country.

Was that not a lie? Does this show co-operation? We did not see them because we were taught humanity, honour and respect. They will come back to this country because they saw that South African cultures are good.

In business, when people do their things, we are proud of our “satellite dish”, mapala beads — thick strands of cotton with beadwork, worn around the neck by girls/women. Here they are. [Laughter.] [Applause.] These things display culture. Old people are dressed nicely in their traditional attire. Are they not admirable? To see you grandparent preserve culture like this, as we are suppose to.

I even told others that the Vhavenda people know technology. When satellite dishes were introduced, we already had them. [Laughter.] These indicated that we had communication with other countries.

With these words, I am grateful to share, to encourage and to celebrate the heritage of culture, which we are all proud of today. I thank you. [Applause.]]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: House Chairperson, hon members, Ministers and Deputy Ministers, it is my honour to wrap up this important debate today. This debate reminded us that as a nation we should continue striving to build a better, more humane and caring society. These values are enshrined in our Constitution.

We urge all of our people to continue building a culture of democracy, social justice and fundamental human rights. As a nation, we have just managed to host a very successful World Cup. The Minister indicated earlier on that we will be celebrating Heritage Day in Durban under the theme: “Celebrating the 2010 Fifa Soccer World Cup Successes: Our Heritage”.

Let us remind ourselves that, as we will be celebrating our Heritage Day on 24 September 2010, we just came from a very successful month where we celebrated together with the Moral Regeneration Movement. We are once more calling on all our people to continue promoting values of ubuntu, where we should say be saying: ”I am because you are”.

As a nation, during the World Cup, we once more demonstrated the true meaning of ubuntu to all those who were visiting our country. We did this by opening our hearts and arms to our visitors, proving to the whole world that we were indeed a caring, warm and loving nation.

Our immediate task is to sustain the positive momentum we built up during the World Cup, both in word and in action. We must continue to work towards a more cohesive society that is just and caring.

We must also sustain the spirit of patriotism and national pride that was so evident during the World Cup. This, amongst other things, requires that we should continue to fly the South African flag and popularise our national symbols. Therefore, it is fitting that, as this House, we should decide how we are going to sustain the gains we made during the World Cup.

As we continue, we should build on the culture of hard work, better planning and working together. You know that the success of the World Cup happened because of the collective efforts of our people who worked together, irrespective of their diverse cultures. They ensured that we were focused and that the World Cup became a big success.

Therefore, I would like to take this opportunity today to thank hon members for all the good suggestions that they have made, because as the Department of Arts and Culture we are going to continue building on this big success. We will continue celebrating South Africa’s living human treasures — the custodians of our intangible cultural heritage.

We know that there are many experiences in our communities. We have many heroes who are busy coming forward with many initiatives. They would like to ensure that they are exposed and that South Africa can celebrate its diverse culture together. We should make sure that, indeed, we build a better country and a united nation.

I also want to thank our mothers who came all the way from Limpopo today. We would like to say to them, “Thank you for showing us that South Africa is indeed a beautiful country.” [Applause.]

Ndi madekwana. [Good evening.]

A lot has been said this evening. We would like to urge you to continue working together like you did during the World Cup. Let us make sure that we hold hands and continue building the culture of sharing, respect and hard work. As a nation, let us continue ensuring that we are moving forward.

Therefore, I wish you all happy Heritage Day celebrations. We are hoping to see all of you in Durban on 24 September 2010. Let us all come to celebrate and work together to build a successful nation. I thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M N Oliphant): Sibonge kuSekela Ngqongqoshe, uSekela Ngqongqoshe ubesephothula ingxoxompikiswano ngakho-ke siyileNdlu sifuna ukwengeza ekutheni siyabonga ukuthi omama nobaba bethu bezile ukuzoba yingxenye yale ngxoxompikiswano ebikhona namhlanje kulesi Sishayamthetho. Sikholelwa ukuthi nangokuzayo bazophinde babuye futhi. Malungu ahloniphekile, umsebenzi wosuku sesiwuphothile, ngakho-ke iNdlu iyaguqa. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Thank you, Deputy Minister. The Deputy Minister was wrapping up the debate, therefore, as members of this House, we would like to add that we are grateful that the high-ranking officials came to be part of this debate which took place here today in the National Assembly. We believe that they will come again in future. Hon members, we have accomplished the day’s work, therefore the House is adjourned.]

The House adjourned at 18:36. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Finance

(a)    Report and Financial Statements of the South African Revenue
    Service (SARS) for 2009-2010, including the Report of the Auditor-
    General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for
    2009-2010 [RP 173-2010].

1. The Minister in The Presidency: Performance Monitoring and Evaluation as well as Administration

(a)     Report and Financial Statements of Vote 6 – Government
    Communication and Information System (GCIS) for 2009-2010,
    including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
    Statements and Performance Information of Vote 6 for 2009-2010 [RP
    183-2010].

1. The Minister of Science and Technology

(a)     Report and Financial Statements of the Human Sciences Research
    Council (HSRC) for 2009-2010, including the Report of the Auditor-
    General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for
    2009-2010 [RP 164-2010].

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Assembly

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