National Council of Provinces - 11 March 2010
THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 2010
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PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
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The Council met at 14:03.
The Deputy Chairperson (Ms T C Memela) took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.
NO NOTICES OF MOTION OR MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon members, I’ve been informed that the Whippery has agreed that there will be no notices of motion or motions without notice today. We will now proceed with the questions as printed on the Question Paper, starting with the questions to the Deputy President.
However, before we proceed, I would like to bring it to the attention of the members that Rule 246(4) of the Council Rules provides that no more than six questions for oral reply may be put to the Minister in respect of any one government department on any particular day. I hope this will assist in explaining to members as to why some of their questions do not appear on the Question Paper.
I now call the Deputy President to respond to the questions. May I, at the same time, please ask him to use the podium? [Applause.] I ask you to please bear with me. There might be times when I’ll give the Deputy President some extra time over the stipulated time, because he will be answering quite a number of questions.
QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:
Discussions with National Stakeholder Advisory Council on Electricity regarding contingency plan during 2010 Fifa Soccer World Cup and details
relating to plan as well as statement on matter
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Ms N D Ntwanambi (ANC) asked the Deputy President:
(1) Whether his Office had any discussions with the National Stakeholder Advisory Council on Electricity and/or the National Electricity Emergency Response Team regarding a contingency plan for high electricity demand during the 2010 Fifa Soccer World Cup tournament; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, (a) to what extent does such a plan (i) affect electricity supply and (ii) manage the demand from the townships and (b) what elements of the plan seek to assist poor households in case of electricity cuts;
(2) whether he will make a statement on the matter? CO66E
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chairperson, hon Ntwanambi and hon members, my office has not had any discussions with the National Stakeholder Advisory Council on Electricity and the National Electricity Response Team, Nert, regarding a contingency plan for high electricity demand during the 2010 Fifa Soccer World Cup tournament. Certainly, in the case of the advisory council, this matter has not arisen as the structure is mainly preoccupied with policy issues.
However, through Nert, government has put in place plans to promote energy efficiency and manage consumption demand. These include: replacing incandescent lighting with energy-saving lights, which has been completed in most host cities’ high-density areas and has reduced demand by at least 700 megawatts; supplying solar water heaters to reduce the electricity load relating to water heating, as part of a 1 million solar water heating programme; and an investment of R1,2 billion by government over the past three years in a programme to rehabilitate the host cities’ electricity distribution infrastructure.
Furthermore, members should note that all stadiums will run on diesel generators. The electricity grid will serve as backup. Regulations to regulate or manage the price of liquefied petroleum gas have been finalised. These aim to assist households to meet their thermal needs of space heating and cooking.
We are confident that these instruments, among others, will enable the country to manage electricity consumption demand during the peak winter period that coincides with the hosting of the 2010 Fifa Soccer World Cup. Eskom has also assured us that there will be no power interruptions during the World Cup. Coal stocks have been replenished and the summer maintenance programme is running smoothly. Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.
Mr T HARRIS: Chairperson, given the comprehensive set of measures that the Deputy President has announced, can he give a guarantee to industry or to Fifa that there won’t be any blackouts during the 2010 Fifa Soccer World Cup?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon member, I think we can definitely give the guarantee that there will be no blackouts unless, of course, a major natural disaster occurs in this day and age of climate change. We cannot be more powerful than nature itself, but all man-made problems have been attended to sufficiently. Thank you.
Engagement of Presidency with Commission for the Promotion and Protection of the Rights of Cultural, Religious and Linguistic Communities and matters relating thereto
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Ms N D Ntwanambi (ANC) asked the Deputy President:
(1) Whether the Presidency has any engagement with the (a) Commission for the Promotion and Protection of the Rights of Cultural, Religious and Linguistic Communities, (b) Moral Regeneration Movement and (c) leaders of any (i) political party and (ii)(aa) religious and (bb) cultural groupings regarding measures that our country can put in place to promote cultural, religious and linguistic tolerance among our people; if so, to what extent do such measures plan to engage schools as a foundation phase for instilling new sets of values in our citizens;
(2) whether he considers it necessary for our nation to engage in such an initiative; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details;
(3) to what extent does this link up with the proposed debate on our national shared moral values by the President and the mandates of the cultural, religious and linguistic communities and the Moral Regeneration Movement? CO67E
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chairperson, hon members, hon Ntwanambi, government has ongoing engagements with many institutions established to protect and promote culture, language and the religious rights of all South Africans. Particular attention is given to aspects of culture, language and religious rights of population groups who previously could not exercise their rights due to oppressive laws of discrimination.
Also, government continues to engage nongovernmental organisations that operate in the same space. We find that, challenges notwithstanding, efforts of government are greatly enhanced by relentless contributions of public bodies established to promote equality and equity, as well as those of nongovernmental actors.
As the hon member might be aware, the Moral Regeneration Movement was established to lead social mobilisation at national and provincial levels in favour of promoting social values that enhance healthy families and cohesive communities. This section 21 entity is funded by the Department of Arts and Culture and boasts professionals, celebrities, religious leaders and community activists on its board. The highlight of their work is the adoption and implementation of the Charter of Positive Values that lays the basis for family, community and national conversations on what constitutes positive social values. I wish to encourage all members of this House to support the proliferation of the Charter of Positive Values. Your constituencies will benefit greatly from such a document.
This, hon members, is in addition to the schools pledge introduced by the then Education Minister, Ms Naledi Pandor. The schools pledge encourages learners to embrace, appreciate and promote social values that protect the integrity of the state, public property, etc. All these measures are meant to foster social cohesion, the basis of which begins at schools, and in families and communities where we live.
We do encourage members of this House and all sectors of society to heed the call by our President, Jacob Zuma, for all South Africans to openly debate and mould values that characterise a united, nonracial, nonsexist and prosperous South Africa. This is not meant to be a panacea for all social ills prevalent in our communities. It does, however, strengthen a foundation for a tree whose fruits will nourish our children and future generations.
Finally, the national dialogue that the President has called for is not meant to supplant other important initiatives of government, civil society and constitutional bodies; rather, it is meant to complement and support them. I thank you.
Mr K A SINCLAIR: Deputy Chairperson, in terms of the Rules I think the person who asked the question has got the privilege to ask the first follow- up question.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon member, I have looked around, which I am still doing right now, and Mr Watson is not here. I’ve done that work but I will announce the final decision after we have finished what we are doing right now.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chair, I thought Mr Sinclair was rising on a correct point of order. Nevertheless, let me ask a follow-up question.
Sekela-Mongameli, njengoko usitsho - nanjengoko nombuzo wam ubusitsho - eyona njongo kukuba ekugqibeleni abantwana bethu bashiyeka noMzantsi Afrika omnye nomanyeneyo njengoko thina sesibadala kwaye sisondele engcwabeni. Kodwa ke, ndingathanda ukuqonda ukuba ingaba le ndlela urhulumente enza ngayo phaya phezulu iyenzeka na apha emaphondweni ethu. Ndibuza lo mbuzo kuba sisenawo amaphondo acinga ukuba aziziqithi. Ndiyabulela. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[Deputy President, as you have mentioned and as my question stated, the main aim is for our children to be left with a legacy of a united South Africa because we are old and about to die. However, I would like to know if there is consistency between the national and provincial governments. I ask this question because we still have provinces that work in isolation from others. Thank you.]
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chairperson, I thank the hon member for the follow-up question. This issue is really the responsibility of all sections of the South African population. That is why the call is made to all of us
- whatever we are – at all spheres of government to contribute towards the definition of positive values for our country. This will ensure that we leave this country on a very firm foundation that will enable future generations to live far better lives than we do today.
Therefore, as I have already said, all structures throughout the three spheres ought to contribute towards this national discourse and ensure that we emerge and shape the values that would keep our nation together. Such contributions would guarantee that tomorrow will be far better than today in order for the country to prosper. Thank you.
Mr K A SINCLAIR: Deputy Chairperson, arising out of the Deputy President’s response, I would like to ask whether he would argue that the promotion of mother-tongue education would assist in these values that he just referred to. Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chairperson, my answer to the hon member’s follow-up question is in the affirmative. In fact, our Constitution and Bill of Rights guarantee the development of all languages. Also, many educational experts do confirm that instruction in one’s mother tongue, particularly at the cognitive stage of the development of the child, is far more effective than if the child were to struggle with its second language as a medium of instruction.
So, indeed it does contribute to a better understanding of who we are. Therefore the instruction of the learner who is at the cognitive stage in his or her mother tongue would shape that particular learner to become a better South African.
Mr T HARRIS: Deputy Chairperson, I would like to ask whether the Deputy President does believe that the President’s conduct can affect the credibility of the national debate on moral values.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chairperson, I would like to inform the hon member that I happen to chair the SA National Aids Council, Sanac, and last week we were doing work in the province of KwaZulu-Natal. In attendance were the former President of Mozambique, Mr Joaquim Chissano and the former President of Botswana, Mr Festus Mogae, who shared with us the wisdom of their years when a question arose as to whether the message of the President on World Aids Day is undermined by this or that negative report about his private life.
In response to that, the two wise leaders said that we - as people who are religious believers - live in a world where even priests from time to time are found guilty of this or that indiscretion or mistake; and yet we continue to listen to the Word and the message. When we deal with matters of such import, nothing but nothing must distract us from understanding the core of the message
So, I would say such a debate would not be undermined by anything attributed to the President. I think it is of such importance that none of us should be distracted by that. However, we should meaningfully engage in the debate. Thank you.
Mr R A LEES: Madam Chair, the Deputy President correctly said that in many cases people do things that may not morally be the right thing to do but we forgive them and continue to listen to them. I would like to know whether, through that statement, the Deputy President is indicating to this House that he agrees that the President’s behaviour has been such that it hasn’t been morally acceptable and there needs to be forgiveness.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chairperson, I think the President actually made a public apology and that should allow us to focus on the message. Thank you. Measures put in place by government with regard to proposed subsidy to employers to limit casualisation of workers and perpetuation of disparity between temporary and full-time workers, prevention of exploitation of young people for tax benefits and implementation of subsidy for benefit of young people in rural areas
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Mr R J Tau (ANC) asked the Deputy President:
(a) What measures is the government putting in place to ensure that the proposed subsidy to employers does not expand a renewed focus on casualisation of workers and perpetuate the disparity between temporary workers and those working full-time, (b) to what extent will the government ensure that young people employed through this programme are not exploited for tax benefits and discarded without prospects for long-term employment and (c) how will this subsidy be implemented to ensure that it also benefits young people in the rural areas? CO69E
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chairperson, thank you, hon Tau. The design of the employment subsidy for unemployed young people has not yet been completed. Before the design is finalised it will be discussed with all relevant stakeholders to ensure that there are no undesirable and unintended consequences of the subsidy.
We will certainly seek to avoid casualisation, a dual labour market, or the cynical exploitation of youth in the implementation of the subsidy. We are all too aware of the concentration of unemployment in some of our very poor rural areas, and we will ensure that the subsidy addresses this issue as far as it is able to do so.
I wish to encourage all stakeholders, social partners, public representatives and young people, in particular, to constructively engage with this proposal so that we emerge with the most meaningful youth employment programme this country has ever experienced. We owe it to our young people to offer them opportunities to gain occupational competencies through skills development and work experience. This is what this wage subsidy proposal seeks to do. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Deputy Chair, thank you, Deputy President. Taking note of the fact that rural development is a priority of this government - and I’m quite happy that the design of the employment subsidy has not been finalised - what I would like to know from the Deputy President, as a clear statement, is whether the Deputy President would say to us that one of the key elements central to the design of the employment subsidy would be a bias towards rural young women in particular. Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chair, that is a detail but, as I said, this is aimed at ensuring that we address this huge challenge of unemployed youth, particularly from rural communities where there is grinding poverty, so to speak. The idea is that we should, as far as possible, afford opportunities to those who otherwise would not be able to lift themselves out of this cycle of poverty. Of course, the approach is in addition to some of the interventions that we employ in addressing poverty, because we believe that education is the key to addressing issues of unemployment and poverty.
We want to deal with this challenge at a household level in order to ensure that we don’t have poverty being transmitted from one generation to another in the same household. We should be able to address that and I can quite plainly state that, if there are young women who are in this category in any rural community, they would no doubt receive the necessary attention.
UMBHEXESHI OYINTLOKO WEBHUNGA: Sekela-Sihlalo, ndingathanda ukuqonda kuSekela-Mongameli ukuba ingaba le mpendulo ayinike leNdlu ichaphazela isebe elinye na okanye onke amasebe karhulumente? Kwaye njengoko sithetha ngophuhliso lwasemaphandleni, ingaba le nto iza kuwachaphazela ngakumbi na amaphondo ngoba olu phuhliso silufuna phaya kanye ezilalini. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Deputy Chairperson, I would like to know from the Deputy President if the response he gave this House affects only one department or all government departments. Again, as we talk about rural development, will this have a negative impact on the provinces because we need this development mostly in rural areas?]
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chair, indeed with the approach that we employ, as I said, the focus is on households and there are areas where we’ve already piloted this approach whereby we go into each and every household to get its profile and we believe that once we are able to identify one or two potential change agents in that household we then ensure that they receive support from the various departments. If I had time, I would share with you some of the positive experiences arising out of this approach.
Most of the difficulties that face our people in rural areas sometimes are problems that admit to resolution just through the sharing of information and can be addressed almost immediately. We believe that by co-ordinating government interventions, it’s possible to assist a household so that the next generation never finds itself mired in poverty in the same way as the current generation by simply identifying those with potential to be assisted to lift that household. If it’s people who have dropped out of school, we persuade them and get them to go back to school, monitor them and support them whilst other interventions from the various government departments are brought to bear as well. Thank you.
Mr T HARRIS: Deputy Chair, if I may ask the Deputy President, the Budget documentation that announced the way the subsidy is referred to in the question is accompanied by two other interventions under the section of interventions in the youth labour market. The first is regulatory reform covering the probationary period to reduce the cost associated with determining a young worker’s productive potential and the second one is minimum wage reform to align productivity in wages for young workers.
I understand the actual wage subsidies being investigated by Treasury, but which departments are responsible for the investigation and implementation of those other two interventions and what are the timeframes associated with their introduction?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: In Cabinet there is a special Inter-Ministerial Cabinet Committee, IMCC, established to investigate the various aspects of this intervention and that naturally would include Economic Development, Labour and it would also include Trade and Industry. That’s the IMCC that would investigate the various aspects so that by the time we implement we should have looked at all potential challenges and obstacles towards a smooth implementation. Thank you.
Government’s position with regard to statement by Zulu King on 23 February 2010 regarding circumcision of men as a means of combating HIV/Aids
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Mr R A Lees (DA) asked the Deputy President:
What is the government’s position on the statement made by the Zulu King in his address to the KwaZulu-Natal legislature on 23 February 2010, that all men be circumcised as a means of combating HIV/Aids? CO71E
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chairperson, hon Lees, government welcomes the statement of His Majesty King Zwelithini which calls for the broadening of medical male circumcision as one of the measures to combat HIV infection. We also welcome efforts by the Premier of KwaZulu-Natal, Dr Zweli Mkhize, who - working with his provincial Cabinet - has mobilised traditional leaders in the province to rally behind His Majesty’s call that young men should undergo medical male circumcision to complement the ABC message to prevent new infections. But, hon members will ask: Why this approach?
Strong evidence from clinical trials undertaken in South Africa - at Orange Farm in Gauteng province - Kenya and Uganda have demonstrated that males who are circumcised have close to 60% less chance of acquiring HIV during sexual intercourse. This means that medical male circumcision is partially protective, and should be promoted as part of a comprehensive package of preventive activities. Already, the World Health Organisation and the United Nations programme on HIV/Aids, UNAIDS, are promoting this intervention based on scientific evidence.
Accordingly, government has decided to include medical male circumcision in the basket of HIV-prevention interventions. Other measures include HIV counselling and testing - knowing one’s status helps to influence behaviour change - sexual and reproductive health education and advocacy for consistent condom use as well as the management of sexually transmitted infections. All these initiatives complement our message to young people in general - abstaining, being faithful and condomising.
Finally, I am pleased to inform this House that the SA National Aids Council, Sanac, is finalising clinical protocols and auditing health facilities to assess their readiness to provide medical male circumcisions as demand is rising, which is already the case in KwaZulu-Natal. However, this demand is being managed, thanks to the support of nongovernmental organisations and the Department of Health’s integrated service delivery model. Thank you.
Mr R A LEES: Madam Deputy Chairperson, could the Deputy President tell us whether it is not possible that government’s support for widespread male circumcision will lead to an increase in the already high death toll associated with male circumcision.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chairperson, my response to the follow-up question asked by hon Lees is in the negative. This will not increase any deaths. Last week on Thursday, I went to visit one of the sites in KwaZulu- Natal, which is a clinic in KwaCaluza in uMgungundlovu, Pietermaritzburg, where a team of doctors from Malaysia were training health personnel. They have invented a simple device which makes this a really painless operation. They insert the device, and it trims exactly where it is supposed to. [Laughter.] The person who is being circumcised keeps the device inserted and after three days or so that particular person is completely healed.
I’m also pleased to share with the House that at the same clinic there was also a delegation from the Eastern Cape sharing experiences and learning this new method. I must say that the method - I myself observed it - is totally painless. A person who is circumcised through this method is able to urinate and go to work, as long as he keeps that little device in for three days or so. Thank you.
Mr D V BLOEM: Deputy Chairperson, I would like to say I agree with the Deputy President. For example, I have a five-year-old boy who went through that process. It’s harmless. On the second day my boy was up and running. Therefore, I agree with the Deputy President.
In fact I will agree with any measure that will curb this scourge of HIV. However - you will agree with me, Deputy President - it will remain the responsibility of everybody in the House to see to it that this type of enemy never catches up with himself or herself. Does the Deputy President agree with that? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chairperson, yes, I agree that in fact prevention and prevention and prevention is the answer. That is why the message of the SA National Aids Council, Sanac, on World Aids Day was “I am responsible”. Thank you.
Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Deputy Deputy Chairperson, could the Deputy President say whether government has any evidence that all men who died of HIV/Aids weren’t circumcised? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Deputy Chairperson, my response to the hon member’s follow-up question is in the negative. I don’t think we did any such research. However, the research that I’m referring to is research which, as I said earlier, was conducted in Uganda and also here in South Africa in the Orange Farm community to assess the value of circumcision towards prevention. Of course, it doesn’t totally eliminate the risk, but at least it reduces the risk by 60%. That is what the World Health Organisation and UNAIDS have been able to establish. That is also the message that the champions are spreading.
It is for this reason that we really thank and appreciate the leadership of His Majesty King Zwelithini because the Zulu nation has not been circumcising for a period of 200 years. However, because of the gravity of this problem that we are dealing with, the Zulu nation, under the leadership of His Majesty, has decided that they would now do it in order to assist in the country’s response to this epidemic. Thank you.
Mnu R A LEES: Sekela-Sihlalo, ngiyabonga kakhulu, ngibonge noSekela Mongameli ukuthi le ndlela ezokwenziwa ngeke ilimaze muntu kodwa ngiyacela ukuba ngiphinde lokhu ngesiNgisi. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[Mr R A LEES: Thank you very much, Deputy Chairperson. I would also like to thank the Deputy President because the measures to be followed are not going to harm anyone. Can I please repeat this in English?]
Could the Deputy President tell us whether the government has put measures in place to protect men from being coerced or forced by traditional leaders or others to be circumcised against their will. This has been reported to be the case in the past. Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chairperson, well, this is like all other aspects of a voluntary process. People do experience deaths; if not in their families, in their communities. I think there is an understanding and acceptance that whatever measure is necessary to prevent this epidemic from spreading any further and taking more lives, they will subject themselves to that.
I’m not aware that there is coercion on anybody. When I was in KwaCaluza the queue was very, very long. These were people who had come willingly and freely without coercion. I didn’t see anyone being escorted there. Thank you.
Details regarding Deputy President’s statement that no political
organisation will be allowed to disrupt school activities
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Mr D A Worth (DA) asked the Deputy President:
(1) Whether, with reference to his statements that no political organisation will be allowed to disrupt school activities, any action has been taken to ensure that this does not occur; if not, why not; if so, what action;
(2) whether any action has been taken against any organisation which has disrupted school activities subsequent to this statement; if not, why not; if so, (a) what action and (b) what are the further relevant details? CO83E
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chairperson and hon Worth, yes, clause 9 of the Basic Education Laws Amendment Bill that will be tabled this year seeks to amend the SA Schools Act, Sasa, of 1996 by prohibiting noneducational activities during school time.
The Bill further supplements the regulation for safety measures at public schools that create a framework for political office bearers and public representatives to have a right to visit public schools in the interests of public accountability. Although these regulations specify that such a visit may not disrupt the school, the proposed amendment makes matters tighter by stipulating that the teaching time of learners may only be used for educational activities.
Political organisations whose members visit schools may, therefore, not disrupt teaching and learning during regulated hours. I’m not aware of any action that has been taken against any organisation as yet. The amendments to the law that I have spoke about will, once passed, empower authorities to take action against those robbing our youth of their valuable learning time.
Let me conclude by saying that this is not a matter of law; it’s a violation of effectiveness. It is a matter of society in general and stakeholders in particular to value and protect the inalienable right of learners to access quality education without interruption. We owe this to our children and future generations. Let us not disappoint them. I thank you.
Mr D A WORTH: Deputy Chairperson, I would like to thank the hon Deputy President for his reply. I am very pleased to see that this clause 9 is going to come into operation because two political organisations – and I would like your comment on that, Deputy President – have been active throughout the country at schools disrupting scholars during the period of learning. I’m going to mention the organisations; one is the SACP and the other one is the ANC Youth League under the leadership of one Mr Julius Malema. It has been reported on in a lot of papers. I would like your comments on that. Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chairperson, I would like to thank hon Worth. The message and plea has been very clear since 2009 - that teachers must be at school, on time and teaching. At the beginning of this year, three teacher federations issued a joint statement committing themselves to doing that. We now focus on the learners themselves and the school management teams to ensure that they should never ever allow anyone to disrupt learning.
With regard to these organisations you have alluded to, I know that the ANC Youth League president, for instance, went to a school in Westonaria. I went to the meeting of the national executive committee, NEC, of the ANC Youth League. I said to them that no one is allowed to disrupt learning, and that we will not make any exception to that rule under any circumstances.
The account they gave me was that, indeed, they also commit that they shall never disrupt learning. The account they gave for their visit to Westonaria was that the school was in a totally chaotic state on the day they went there. The principal of the school apparently reported for work at 10:00. He only rolled into the schoolyard at 10:00. The teachers pleaded with him to get the learners to settle down and learn because they were, from the account, jumping on desks and so on. So I said to them that that must be the very last time they go and play that kind of role. If there is any need to motivate any learner, they should do that on a Saturday, not during school hours.
So there is a commitment to that end. I am not aware of the SACP visiting any schools to disrupt any learning at any time, but I can speak about the ANCYL in the specific instance when they visited a school in Westonaria. I can account for that because I did engage them on it. Thank you.
Mr W F FABER: Madam Deputy Chair, I would like to thank the Deputy President. I’m so glad to see that at least the Deputy President has teeth for Mr Malema.
I would like to know if we, as Members of Parliament, when visiting schools in our constituency work to see if we can help the schools that struggle, also fall under this. We are not actually disrupting, but are trying to help. We do visit schools when doing constituency work to hear where we, as Members of Parliament, specifically the Select Committee on Education and Recreation, can perhaps help and find out where these schools have problems. The school principals do appreciate seeing us coming to visit and to see where we can help and assist them. I would like to know. Thank you, Mr Deputy President.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chairperson, yes, the Act will allow for political office bearers and public representatives to visit schools. Of course it will tighten up this matter very clearly - that no disruption of learning must ever take place. So whatever you are going to deliver, or if you are being allowed by the school management team to teach for one session, that’s a horse of a different colour. But if you are going there just to supervise and so on, there should be no such disruption whatsoever. That is why we insist that any other intervention must take place outside of the hours of learning. Thank you.
Mr W F FABER: Madam Deputy Chair, I would like to ask the Deputy President if he would agree with me that, in the event where certain MPs go to visit schools and certain teacher unions disallow them entrance to their organisations, the teacher unions don’t have the authority to disallow them to visit schools.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chairperson, the authority at any school lies with the school’s management team. That is the body that is properly authorised to manage the school. Thank you.
Mr R A LEES: Madam Deputy Chairperson, let me thank the Deputy President for the intervention at Westonaria. That is great. With regard to the principal who was delinquent, may I ask if any action has been taken against him to correct his behaviour or implement whatever corrective measures are needed.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chairperson, the hon member will recall that this is a school that suffered when that community was resisting fiercely its transfer into the North West province. Schoolchildren were used in that regard. Therefore, it’s a school that needs to be mentored, including the principal.
I do know that the Department of Basic Education sends mentors to assist those kinds of principals to restore order in the schools because some of the best performing schools are schools that are well managed, where the principals keep time and lead by example. Indeed, that was reported to the Gauteng provincial MEC for education. Thank you.
Undertaking of lifestyle audit and details relating thereto
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Mr D B Feldman (Cope) asked the Deputy President:
Whether the government will ensure that a lifestyle audit of all (a) Cabinet members, (b) Deputy Ministers, (c) directors-general and (d) directors is undertaken in order to assuage the disquiet of the citizens regarding the unexplained wealth of persons high up in government; if not, why not; if so, how is the government planning to drive this so that public confidence is restored? CO88E
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chairperson, members will have to bear with me – this is a rather longish reply. I would like to thank hon Feldman for the question.
As hon members are aware, Ministers and Deputy Ministers are required, in terms of the code of ethics for Members of Parliament and the Executive Members Ethics Act and code, to disclose details of their financial interests, assets and gifts received. Senior public servants from the level of director upwards are required to do the same in terms of the Public Service Regulations.
I am sure that you are aware that violations of the parliamentary code are handled by Parliament and have been dealt with effectively in the past. Complaints against violations of the executive ethics code can also be dealt with by the Public Protector.
As I reported in the National Assembly last week, the SA Revenue Service conducts investigations of people who appear to be living beyond their means. These investigations start on the basis of information obtained from various sources, including the Sars anticorruption and fraud hotline, the income tax returns a taxpayer submits to Sars and reports of suspicious activity from members of the public.
A lifestyle questionnaire is one method of obtaining information from a taxpayer and, together with other information sources, assists Sars in matching the lifestyle trends, income streams and the asset base of a taxpayer to what has been declared in an income tax return. The accumulated wealth has to be explained by the taxpayer for tax purposes. Any unexplained wealth is taxed.
The Compliance and Risk Unit within Sars conducts the risk analysis of taxpayer information. If there is a mismatch between what the taxpayer has declared and what Sars has found, the case is referred for an audit.
If it is confirmed that the taxpayer has evaded tax, penalties are levied, interest is charged and additional tax of up to 200% of the evaded tax is charged. Depending on the circumstances, the case may then be handed to Sars’ criminal investigation department which then engages the SA Police Service and the Specialised Tax Unit for criminal prosecution within the National Prosecuting Authority.
More than 10 000 – in fact, to be precise, 17 420 – such audits have been conducted by Sars over the past two years. The Prevention and Combating of Corrupt Activities Act of 2004 also provides for an investigation into a person who appears to own property disproportionate to their income. This is in addition to the stringent Financial Intelligence Centre Act, Fica, requirements that compel individuals to disclose sources of income when they make large financial transactions.
In light of the above, Cabinet is not considering lifestyle audits for Ministers, Deputy Ministers and senior public servants, as there are already appropriate measures in place.
Deputy Chairperson, hon members of this august House, each and every one of us has a duty as public representatives to ensure that members of the public and our constituencies are aware of the regulatory framework designed to deter corruption. However, and more importantly, it is necessary that, as public representatives, we inform the public about all the means available to them as citizens to bring to the attention of the authorities any information that they might have that will bring to book anybody involved in corrupt activities of any kind. The more our people know about these measures and the more we exercise oversight as Parliament, or the NCOP, the better we will be able to restore public confidence as mentioned by the hon member. Thank you.
Mr R A LEES: Madam Deputy Chair, in a lighter vein, I think the Deputy President referred to Parliament and the NCOP. Well, the NCOP is part of Parliament.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I know. Parliament is the NA and the NCOP.
Mr R A LEES: Thank you, sir. We sometimes feel as if we are sidelined. I am sorry, Madam Deputy Chair, I am out of order. Please rule me out of order.
Hon Deputy President, you are absolutely right about Sars’ mandate on lifestyle audits. That is absolutely true. Nevertheless, there is a requirement by law for us in this House and the other House to make certain declarations.
Now, if those declarations are made untruthfully, is there then no requirement on either our own political parties or somebody, other than Sars, to establish the veracity of that information?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Deputy Chair, to the best of my knowledge, once members have made their declarations, one can click on the website to check that and, if one is in any doubt, yes indeed, the matter should be raised.
In the past, Parliament has dealt with many such cases. Members’ salaries have been docked. If Parliament is merciful, a member may lose a week’s earnings for not declaring interests fully.
Mr T M H MOFOKENG: Madam Deputy Chair, I would like to ask the Deputy President whether any political party or any individual, particularly those advocating a lifestyle audit, has made any indication to the President or any structures of government about their problems with the existing mechanisms, such as the asset disclosures for members. The impression must not be created that there are no mechanisms, as the Deputy President has clearly outlined them. There are also sanctions that are specified for nondisclosure.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Deputy Chair, with all due respect, I missed essential parts of the question. Could the member perhaps please speak into the microphone?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Actually, hon member, I was about to ask you to please use your microphone; a recording is being done.
Mr T M H MOFOKENG: Madam Deputy Chair, the question was whether there are any individuals or political parties who have indicated that they have problems with the current mechanisms.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chair, not that I am aware of. I don’t think there is any political party or individual that has indicated unhappiness about existing measures. Of course, the general secretary of Cosatu has experienced what is called, in biblical language, “epiphanies”. He has made a discovery of the term “lifestyle audit” and I don’t think he was aware that this was, in fact, being conducted all along. He has also not told the general public which body should conduct such lifestyle audits. He seems to be suggesting that perhaps The Star or Cape Argus newspapers or something like that should do it. [Laughter.]
We are legislators. We must find measures that are enforceable by law by a properly authorised agency or body of state. Thank you.
Mr O DE BEER: Deputy Chair, the Deputy President has mentioned that a member might lose a week’s income for nondisclosure of interest. I want to know from the Deputy President whether this question of penalties issued due to nondeclaration of interests is also going to apply to the Head of State, because the perception outside is that some of us are above the law. Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chair, the law applies to all of us, right from the President down to ordinary citizens. As I have said, if there is any omission, the Public Protector is properly authorised to investigate the matter and produce a report and, on the basis of that report, the House can … Of course, remember that the President is not a Member of Parliament; he is the First Citizen of the country. Thank you.
Mr T HARRIS: Deputy Chair, I would like to ask the Deputy President if the various admirable measures outlined failed to resolve the situation where a company owned by the ANC Youth League president has been granted more than R140 million worth of tenders for government building projects in Limpopo, despite the fact that the company complied with neither the required tax nor building regulations. Will any further action be taken by him, in line with the action that he took against the relevant organisation when they were disrupting school lessons that he reported on earlier? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chair, the answer is no because there are properly authorised agencies and bodies that deal with these kinds of matters. Tenders that are adjudicated upon by municipalities and so on have to be handled by the relevant agencies and bodies, and if there is something untoward, it will be handled by them. If we jump in by getting involved in such matters we may cause a stampede. The only way in which the President or I can be involved is by referring such matters to the relevant state organ for investigation and progression. Thank you.
Mr B NESI: Deputy Chair, I wonder whether the Deputy President thinks it strange that hon Feldman is also concerned about the lifestyle audit of Ministers and directors-general, when, not so long ago, his own president was fined and reprimanded by Parliament for not disclosing his directorship of a company when he was a Minister? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chair, I think that is a comment I don’t have to respond to, as it is not a question. [Applause.]
DIGRESSION FROM ORIGINAL QUESTIONS APPEARING ON ORDER PAPER
(Point of Order)
Mr Z MLENZANA: Hon Deputy Chairperson, it is just that I didn’t want to disturb the proceedings when the Deputy President of the country was responding to these questions. I felt that when he was done I would rise and raise this point of order that perhaps all of us, members and the Chairperson who is presiding could observe the original questions as raised on the paper, avoiding digression, because hon members come up with follow- up questions where you’ll find a situation in which they’re bringing in questions that are totally new and not part of what was originally on the paper. Thank you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Mlenzana, thanks for that. I did notice that, but I thought I would talk to all members after the session. Thank you.
PEACE AND SECURITY
Cluster 1
MINISTERS:
Details relating to charges brought against police members, impact of nature of charges on ability of police to fight crime and proposals put in place to eliminate legal and policy areas that hinder police’s ability to
fight crime
-
Ms N D Ntwanambi (ANC) asked the Minister of Police:
(1) (a) How many (i) charges have been brought against police members by members of the public during the period 1 January 2005 up to 28 February 2010, (ii) were resolved and (iii) are still outstanding, (b) what amount has been paid by his department in civil claims for cases involving police members during the same period and (c) what is the nature of charges that were brought against police members;
(2) whether the nature of charges brought hamper the ability of police members in the fight against crime; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details;
(3) whether he has put any proposals in place to eliminate any legal and policy areas that hinder the police’s ability to fight against crime; if not, why not; if so, what proposals? CO58E
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Deputy Chairperson, the last time we were together here in this august House, there was a question about the police station in Gingindlovu. So, I just got some feedback here about what the hon member Gamede raised about the shortage of vehicles and so on. It had been attended to. Thanks for that feedback. [Applause.]
Well, hon Ntwanambi, in December 2009, I instructed that a full audit of all criminal charges and convictions relating to police officials be conducted. As the hon member would understand, this audit needs to be comprehensive and as accurate as possible. I would ask the member to wait for the completion of this audit after which I will make a full comment on the issue.
The commission of any act which may also constitute a criminal offence is considered exclusion under the conditions of employment. As I explained earlier, I instructed that a full audit be conducted. Whenever legal and policy impediments in this regard are identified, steps are taken to rectify shortcomings, for example, the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development has been requested to consider introducing legislation in Parliament pertaining to the use of lethal force by a police official to align legislation in line with the earlier judgment of the Constitutional Court. Thank you.
Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Deputy Chairperson and hon Minister, firstly, I am very appreciative of the full audit that you’re asking for, but I have a concern inasmuch as in every case where a police member has been taken or been suspended for misconduct, that case must go as far as the courts. The police can only defend those cases in court. Is that the right procedure from what I understand?
Secondly, could changes be made so that the case does not have to go to court in order for us to save money in this regard?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Deputy Chairperson, each case will be taken on its own merit. There are purely disciplinary matters that do not eventually reach the courts, but there are those which are of a criminal nature that inevitably have to reach the courts. Perhaps what would help us is to look at each case on its own merits and demerits. Thank you.
Number of SA Police Service members arrested and jailed for crimes committed while on duty and outside their duties, and nature of crimes
-
Ms N D Ntwanambi (ANC) asked the Minister of Police:
(a) What is the total number of the SA Police Service members who were (i) arrested and (ii) jailed for crimes they committed while on duty and outside their duties during the period 1 January 2005 up to 28 February 2010 and (b) what is the nature of crimes they committed? CO59E
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Chairperson, the second question is linked to the first question, which the hon member agreed to wait for when we started. The third question is the question by hon Makhubela.
Deputy Chairperson, the 1995 judgment in the case of the State v Makwanyane by Justice Chaskalson has been further clarified by the Constitutional Court in 2002 in the judgment of Ex parte Minister of Safety and Security and others in relation to Walters and Another.
The SA Police Service abides by the judgment of the Constitutional Court in the latter case. Thank you.
Mr D V BLOEM: Deputy Chairperson, this is based on the second question. You can respond to it together with the other questions. Minister, on the second one, I am sure that you will agree that you can never call a person who is a criminal in a blue uniform a policeman. That person is not fit to be in the service. What I am saying is that you as a Minister must conduct an investigation to find out if some of them have not infiltrated the force to push their own dirty agendas and call themselves the police. You will agree with that, Minister. This is the question. Here’s the chairperson now, sitting next to me.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Deputy Chair, yes, I agree.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Bloem, you seem to be jumping around. The Minister had answered the questions that were posed. Now you have jumped to another one. Yes, you have done that. If you want any clarity, can you hold on? I will give you the correct answer. No, Mr Bloem. Can we proceed?
Mr D V BLOEM: I don’t …
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): With all due respect, hon Bloem, please, just for a second, pay heed. I will come back to you. Minister, have you answered all your questions? Thank you very much.
Number of prisoners getting ARV treatment in prisons, reasons for prisoners that are clinically supposed to be getting ARVs but are not, and steps to expand distribution of ARVs in prison
-
Ms N D Ntwanambi (ANC) asked the Minister of Correctional Services:
(1) What is the total number of prisoners who are getting antiretroviral, ARV, treatment in prisons across South Africa;
(2) whether there are any prisoners that are clinically supposed to be getting ARVs but are not; if so, what are the reasons for them not getting the ARVs;
(3) whether her department will take any steps to expand the distribution of ARVs in prisons; if not, why not; if so, what steps? CO60E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (on behalf of the Minister of Correctional Services): Deputy Chair, the Minister of Correctional Services is the former Minister of Home Affairs, so I stand in as her Deputy whenever she is unavailable. [Laughter.]
Hon Ntwanambi, the total number of inmates on antiretroviral drugs, ARVs, at the end of the last quarter of 2009, was 7 038, distributed as follows: KwaZulu-Natal had 2 361; Gauteng had 2 119; Limpopo, Mpumalanga and North West together had 1 023; the Eastern Cape had 567; Free State and Northern Cape had 542; and the Western Cape had 426.
There were 1 380 inmates on the ARV-readiness programme at the end of the last quarter of 2009. These are inmates who are eligible for treatment and who are undergoing the treatment-readiness programme by meeting with treatment counsellors for individual information sessions or treatment, by understanding the importance of adherence to treatment and of attending all scheduled pretreatment visits.
There is no prescribed period for the frequency of counselling sessions. This is dependent upon the individual patient’s acceptance of his or her HIV status, and their readiness and understanding of the implications of antiretroviral therapy, ART. The minimum is one session per week for two weeks, to monitor compliance and adherence to Cotrimoxazole treatment. Inmates are placed on Cotrimoxazole preventive therapy, CPT, to prevent opportunistic infections such as pneumocystis carinii, pneumonia, meningitis, skin infections and candidiasis.
They attend information and education sessions on nutrition, positive living, support groups, discussions about the drugs and possible side effects as well as the importance of reporting side effects. These sessions are presented by various professionals, such as professional nurses, social workers, treating clinicians, dieticians and others.
Inmates then undergo a final treatment-readiness assessment as determined by the treating health care professionals.
On the third question, the department is taking steps to expand the distribution of ARVs in correctional centres, in line with the presidential mandate announced on 1 December 2009.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Harris, what is it?
Mr T HARRIS: Deputy Chairperson, it’s a request for clarity: I would like to confirm whether Ministers are allowed to delegate their responsibility to answer questions to any other Minister in the Cabinet?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Read your Rules, hon member.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (on behalf of the Minister of Correctional Services): Deputy Chairperson, if I may proceed?
In conclusion, the department is in the process of conducting an assessment to determine the readiness of health facilities to expand the distribution of ART in line with the national Department of Health’s guidelines.
Readiness is determined in terms of the availability of suitable structures and equipment; the availability of professional nurses with a primary health care qualification and with a dispensing certificate; the availability of pharmacists to procure and distribute the ARVs; the availability of dieticians to conduct nutritional assessments and recommend appropriate supplementation; the availability of ARV drugs in accordance with the new drug regimens of the Department of Health guidelines; and the training of all health professionals on the new treatment guidelines and the HIV and Aids counselling and testing policy.
It is anticipated that the assessment process will be conducted by the end of March 2010. Thank you.
Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: Chair, I would like to ask if the circumcision facility will also be made available to male prisoners.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (on behalf of the Minister of Correctional Services): Deputy Chairperson, this is a new matter that has been raised. As we have indicated, the department will comply with the guidelines set up by the Department of Health. If the Department of Health introduces that guideline, the Department of Correctional Services will comply.
Instilling values of constitutionality, patriotism, loyalty, dignity,
professionalism, accountability, acceptable code of conduct and unit cohesion in members of SA National Defence Force, and details regarding
written curriculum followed
- Mr M W Makhubela (Cope) asked the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans:
(1) Whether, with reference to her strategic business plan for the
period 2009 to 2011, her department began to infuse persons in
the forces with values of constitutionality, patriotism,
loyalty, dignity, professionalism, accountability, acceptable
code of conduct and unit cohesion so that the SA National
Defence Force could become a stalwart in the defence of our
constitutional democracy; if not, why not; if so, (a) how was
this done, (b) who was leading the initiative and (c) how
successful has the initiative been thus far;
(2) whether there was any written curriculum being followed; if not,
what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the
relevant details? CO54E
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Deputy Chair, thank you very much for adjusting the temperature to deal with people like me. The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): We’re sorry about that. We are always freezing in this room.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you. Deputy Chairperson, in answer to the question, I’d like to state that the values of constitutionality, patriotism, loyalty, dignity, professionalism and accountability are instilled in all members of the SA National Defence Force from the day that they enrol in the service.
That which differentiates a soldier from any other service are these values. What is central to the whole ethos of the Defence Force is embodied in the oath taken by each member and reinforced at each and every official function. And for the benefit of the House, I just want to read some of the elements of the oath, which we are very proud of. It says:
I pledge to serve and defend my country and its people in accordance with the Constitution and the law and with honour, dignity, courage and integrity.
I serve in the SANDF with loyalty and pride, as a citizen and a volunteer.
I will treat all people fairly and respect their rights and dignity at all times, regardless of race, ethnicity, gender, religion, culture, language or sexual orientation.
I will not abuse my authority, position or public funds for personal gain, political motive or any other reason.
I think these are very commendable elements in our code of conduct, and I would suggest that perhaps some of the Ministers here could enforce the same code of conduct for their services.
However, I read the oath in part response to the question that was asked by the hon member. Through the basic training, education is instilled and enforced through the command and control of the Defence Force. Specifically, there is a military responsibility for the Chief of the Defence Force, in terms of the Defence Act, to ensure that the training of members ensures that at all times they act in accordance with the Constitution and the law.
The strategic plan for 2009-11 builds on these basic foundations and emphasises the role of continuous education in the Defence Force to ensure that at all times our soldiers are seized with these values to carry out their role with distinction and pride.
Very specifically, in response to part (1)(a) of the question, the requisite training is done through basic military training, which is done over a period of six months for every member of the Defence Force at the point at which they enter the Defence Force.
The answer to part (1)(b) of the question is the following. The leader of the initiative, as prescribed by the law, is the Chief of the SA National Defence Force and he is overseen by the Minister through the secretariat. Part (1)(c) of the question asks how successful the initiative has been. Well, last year’s incident on the grounds of the Union Buildings will indicate that continuous training is necessary in ensuring that, at all times, a soldier is a disciplined, dignified stalwart in defence of our democracy. We are prioritising this in our current strategy, supported by all the relevant mechanisms of redress.
In reply to part (2) of the question: yes, we have a written curriculum that is available to the member to investigate and peruse. Thank you.
Mr S D MONTSITSI: Deputy Chairperson, I welcome the response that the Minister gave. I would like the Minister to take the House into her confidence with respect to the morale and wellbeing of the forces after the unfortunate scene on the grounds of the Union Buildings.
Secondly - and provided this is not a new question - I would like to ask to what extent the matter has been resolved with respect to the research that was done by the commission. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: The hon member would like me to take the House into my confidence, and I will endeavour to do so to the extent that it is possible without breaching current procedures which are before the courts right now.
The morale of the soldiers, I believe, is probably as good as we can have it in the Defence Force. When we got into the Defence Force, as this new administration, we were aware of a simmering unhappiness especially over the conditions of service and the salaries of soldiers. This I committed myself to attending to when I addressed the National Assembly on the occasion of the presentation of my Budget Vote to the National Assembly, and I committed myself to attending to the matter of the Defence Force.
I also committed to the Defence Force that we would create a different environment for the Defence Force that was conducive to the maximum utilisation of personnel and ensuring that we have the kind of discipline that we require of the Defence Force.
We have subsequently established a defence military commission. The commission has concluded its first phase, which is to recommend to us what we can do about the conditions of service in the Defence Force. In the first week of December they handed their recommendations to us, which were given to the President as Commander in Chief. We have since accepted the recommendations and increased the salaries of the soldiers, in some cases almost threefold. By the time our soldiers went on their Christmas holiday, they were probably happier than most Members of Parliament.
We are extremely grateful that the commission could do this, because it made it possible for us to redress a problem that probably had been simmering for years in the Defence Force.
With regard to what has happened to those members who showed the ultimate ill discipline, we have taken the necessary disciplinary steps and the matter is before the courts. Thank you.
Mr D B FELDMAN: Thank you, Chair. On a lighter note, Minister, it has been mentioned in the newspapers that most of the soldiers and the police are overweight. I would like to know if there is any programme in progress. How will you address that? Thank you, Minister.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): I note that this is a new question, but the Minister will guide us as to whether she is prepared to answer that question.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Between the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans and the Minister of Police I think we are very good representatives of what we believe in. [Laughter.] Do you want me to say any more? [Laughter.] Thank you.
Mr M W MAKHUBELA: Thank you, Chairperson and Minister. After this question was answered so fully I was so happy. But I wanted the Minister to mention who asked the question because that was not mentioned. [Laughter.] Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Okay. Thank you very much. I take it that that is a side comment. Mr K A SINCLAIR: Thank you, Chairperson. It seems that there is a change in guard also in this House now.
I just want to ask the Minister, in terms of the code of conduct and the values she referred to, if she believes that there is still a sense of purpose for unions in the army.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Hon Minister, obviously that is a new question, but I will check with you first, Minister, whether you are prepared to take the question. If not, that’s fine.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Chairperson, if you will allow me, I want to get back to Mr Makhubela of Cope in Limpopo and give him my sincerest apologies. I did overlook this matter, and I thank him for the question. It gave me the possibility to explain the code of conduct of the Defence Force. It allowed me to say all those good things about the Defence Force. My sincerest gratitude goes to you, hon member.
On the matter of the unions, I think that I would like the opportunity to come back to this House on that matter, specifically because it is not a follow-up question on the issues that we have dealt with right now. I have expressed myself publicly on the matter, but I would like the opportunity, with your permission, to come back to respond to that in full. Thank you.
Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chair, I am not quite satisfied with this meeting at all, because I don’t think that the Minister of Police answered Questions 4, 8, 9 and 12. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Is that a follow-up question?
Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: No, I am asking where we are going, because I thought we were …
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): We are dealing with … We are currently … Can I bring you up to speed?
Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: Are we doing the questions in numerical order?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): We have just dealt with Question 5 asked by the hon Makhubela to the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans. And now I was taking the last follow-up question to the Minister. If there is none, then let’s go to the next question on the Question Paper, which is Question 6, asked by the hon Makhubela to the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development.
Details regarding establishment of accessible and affordable court system, and details relating thereto
-
Mr M W Makhubela (Cope) asked the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development:
Whether his department succeeded in establishing an accessible and affordable court system that will allow ordinary people who have been removed from the major urban areas to access justice quickly and easily; if not, when will a court system that will deliver a faster and easier resolution of cases be established; if so, what are the relevant details? CO55E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I would like to thank the hon Makhubela for posing a question which is going to allow me to give quite a lengthy reply on the work done by the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development. I wish to advise the hon member that the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development has made considerable progress in establishing an accessible and affordable court system that allows ordinary people, who have been removed from the major urban areas, to access justice quickly and easily.
The current court system is based on the 366 magisterial districts which are largely based on the pre-1994 court system in terms of which better resourced and well-equipped courts were established in cities and affluent areas. Rural areas and former black townships were served by underresourced and poorly equipped branch courts. The following are the programmes undertaken by the department to address this legacy of the apartheid court system: Firstly, we want the rationalisation and redemarcation of the magisterial districts to be consistent with our current constitutional dispensation. This programme seeks to rationalise and align magisterial districts to be consistent with the provincial and municipal dispensation.
The outcome of this exercise is to ensure that there is at least one magistrate’s court for every municipality. For bigger municipalities, two or more seats of the magistrate’s court will be established. Every magistrate’s court and every seat of a magistrate in each of the 287 municipal areas will be adequately resourced and capacitated to meet the needs of communities.
Preliminary consultations within the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security cluster have taken place and recommendations have been drafted, which will be published soon for public comments. Thereafter, the Minister will proclaim the new rationalised areas of jurisdiction of the magistrates’ courts. As part of this programme, the department continues to build new courts in municipalities and rural villages that had none previously. The department will also upgrade the existing infrastructure in some of these areas.
Courts that have been recently completed in rural areas include Ekangala Magistrate’s Court, while the construction of new courts in Ntuzuma and Katlehong is under way.
Secondly, we want to upgrade current branch courts to full service courts. Branch courts were mainly designed to provide criminal trials only and for civil and family law services, the communities had to travel long distances to main courts in remote cities and towns.
To address this anomaly, the department has embarked on a programme to upgrade branch courts to turn them into full service courts to provide all services, including civil and family law services to local communities.
There are 15 branch courts which were converted into proper courts in August 2009. In the interests of time, I am not going to read all of them, but the details are there in the written response. Similarly, the nine branch courts which will be converted in the 2010-12 financial years are listed in the written reply.
Thirdly, the conversion of the 15 branch courts in rural areas and former black townships during August 2009, and the planned conversion of nine branch courts during the 2010-11 financial year remains the most important milestone in our quest to enhance access to justice in rural villages and townships. The effect thereof is phenomenal. The population served by these courts is estimated at six million cumulatively.
Before 11 August 2009, these six million people had to commute to the main courts in remote cities and towns at huge costs, because prior to the conversion of these branch courts, only limited criminal trials were rendered at those courts. The infrastructure of these courts has been upgraded and human resource capacity increased to capacitate these courts to render full services including civil cases, maintenance, domestic violence, etc. The capacity of these courts has also been increased to include small claims courts and the services of the Master.
Fourthly, the department has also introduced the Traditional Courts Bill which is currently before Parliament. This Bill emanated from the policy framework on the traditional justice system under the Constitution, developed by the department. The Traditional Courts Bill aims to bring about a single statute regulating the role and functions of traditional leaders in the administration of justice. The main objective of this Bill as set out in clause 2 is to, firstly, affirm the values of the traditional justice system. [Time expired.] Thank you very much; and I thank the hon Makhubela as well.
Mr D A WORTH: Chairperson, the Deputy Minister talks about the upgrading of courts. I hope I am not sidetracking and going onto another question totally. I would like to ask the Deputy Minister if there are security measures in place at the upgrading of these courts, because that has been a major problem?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, it is indeed a separate question. I can just say in general terms that we do recognise the importance of security at all of our courts. The department does have a range of security measures in place to ensure the safety of the facilities as well as the magistrates, the prosecutors and members of the public who make use of those courts. In addition, we do supply security, when needed, to presiding officers. Certainly, all of those services would be applicable to the courts that I have referred to in my initial answer.
If the member wishes to receive more detail, then a specific question could be posed so as to enable us to reply in the same detailed manner as to the original question.
Mr S D MONTSITSI: Chair, I hope you will bear with me. My other question is on the other pages which still have to be read by the Deputy Minister. Can you give him a chance to finish?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau) Is it a supplementary question or is it another question?
Mr S D MONTSITSI: The supplementary question is covered in the pages that the Deputy Minister has not yet read. [Laughter.] Can you just give him a chance to finish?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Just put the supplementary question.
Mr S D MONTSITSI: It hinges on the programme that the Minister has embarked on with regard to a rural outlay for ordinary people to access justice – the establishment of those courts. I think the Deputy Minister was just getting to the answer.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): What is a supplementary question?
Mr S D MONTSITSI: A supplementary question is the question that explains further what the Deputy Minister has imparted. I am requesting the Deputy Minister to explain the extent to which the department is unfolding delivery in the rural areas for ordinary people to access justice.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: I understand what the member means. What the member is asking about is the use of indigenous languages in court as a means to enhance access. In that regard, the department has furthermore embarked on a pilot project with the use of indigenous languages at a number of courts. This has been progressively expanded to other courts in various provinces. The number of courts where indigenous languages are used has increased to 31 in all nine provinces, catering for nine indigenous languages.
Lastly, I wish to inform the hon member that the criminal justice system review is part and parcel of the task set by the present government to establish a transformed, integrated, modernised, properly resourced and well-managed justice system. This criminal justice system review will therefore also assist to provide a court system that will deliver faster and easier resolution of cases, countrywide, including in rural areas. A number of protocols or guidelines that will improve the performance of courts have received attention in terms of the criminal justice system review.
Also, the case backlog reduction project, aimed at reducing the backlog in cases in regional courts, is continuing. Currently, 46 additional backlog regional courts are in place in areas where there are high backlog numbers, including backlogs from rural areas. In total, 18 271 cases were finalised and removed from court rolls between November 2006 and the end of December 2009.
Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, on a point of order: I want to propose that the Deputy Minister table his response because I can see that it is a Bible. We are going to sit here until eight o’clock. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): I think you are out of order. There was a supplementary question. All I asked the Deputy Minister was to check whether he understood the supplementary question. He said that he understands the supplementary question. I have given him the opportunity to respond to that question. If his time expires, I will indicate to him that his time has expired on responding to the supplementary question. In terms of procedure, he does have the right to do that. You are out of order.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: The backlog reduction interventions in regional courts have succeeded in bringing down the total backlog percentage from 43% in 2006 to 29% at the end of December 2009.
Let me conclude by saying that one of the very important areas - areas I would appeal to all members present to assist us with - is the expansion of small claims courts. Small claims courts are mechanisms that are very effective in making possible cheap and fast accessible justice to people. We have established 28 small claims courts in rural areas in the past two years. We would appeal to you to approach, in your constituencies, legal practitioners and to ask them to volunteer to serve as commissioners in these small claims courts. I thank you.
Mr O DE BEER: Chairperson, my question is on the issue of safety and access to justice. Deputy Minister, in the Western Cape, particularly, people are killed on the premises of the court. In November last year in Atlantis, a person was gunned down. In the Mitchells Plain court, history speaks for itself.
On the issue of access, we understand that people must have access to justice, but the safety of innocent people in society can’t be compromised. In a court in Langebaan in the multipurpose centre, court procedures are held without any security backup for the public. Close contact is being made.
If it is a new question and the Deputy Minister is not prepared to answer it now, I will understand.
In a court in Vredenburg, people who came with witnesses had to stand outside in the rain in long queues. The services rendered there are unacceptable. That is why you find situations where people are not prepared to come and bear witness because of the kind of services which are rendered at that court in Vredenburg. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I just want to reiterate that we will be glad to come back to this House to deal comprehensively with the issue of security at our courts. It is a matter that we take very seriously and on which there is a range of measures in place. If the members want details, we can come back and provide that.
We should not confuse the question of access to justice which deals, firstly, with the location of courts; secondly, with the accessibility of the procedure in those courts; thirdly, with the accessibility of language; and fourthly, also with the very important issue of financial accessibility of our courts. The issue that the member raises of physical entrance – coming in and out of courts – is something else. When we talk about access to justice we don’t mean doors should be open for any criminal to come in with whatever firearms. That is something else which we can engage on.
The hon member cited the example of the Vredenburg Magistrate’s Court and I am aware of that situation. I paid a visit to that court at the end of last year. The issue of the lack of shade and shelter for those who are waiting for their matters to be heard or to testify is something that we took note of. We raised it with the regional head of the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development who is attending to that matter, either by rechanneling funds within the department or by approaching members of the community and the business community to help put up a shelter. Thank you.
Consequences of establishment of constitutional state on use of lethal force
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Mr M W Makhubela (Cope) asked the Minister of Police:
Whether the consequences of the establishment of a constitutional state placed a greater restriction on the use of lethal force as noted by the former Chief Justice P Chaskalson in his judgment in certain cases (details furnished); if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, how was this conclusion reached? CO56E
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, we will respond again on the matter in the question put by the hon Makhubela. As we said earlier, the 1995 judgment in the case of Makwanyane by former Chief Justice Chaskalson has been further clarified by the Constitutional Court in 2002 in the judgment on the case of the Minister of Safety and Security and Others v Walters and Another. The SA Police abide by the judgment of the Constitutional Court in the latter case. As I said, Chairperson, I have acknowledged Commissioner Makhubela, the hon Makhubela. [Laughter.]
Number of police members disciplined and charged with negligent driving, number of vehicles written off by department as a result, and details regarding policeman who shot himself in Khayelitsha
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Mr T M H Mofokeng (ANC) asked the Minister of Police:
(1) (a) How many police members were (i) disciplined and (ii) charged with negligent driving after they were involved in car accidents between 1 January 2005 and 28 February 2010 and (b) what is the total number of police vehicles that were written off by his department as a result of the accidents;
(2) whether a policeman who shot himself in Khayelitsha (details furnished) had any previous record(s) of sanctions; if so, what are the relevant details? CO62E The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Mofokeng, the department is only in possession of verified information as from 1 April 2008 to 31 January 2010, extracted from the departmental systems in response to this question.
A total of 230 members of the SA Police Service, the SAPS, were disciplined after they were charged for reckless and negligent driving following their involvement in car accidents; and 293 members were charged. A total of 10 420 vehicles were written off as a result of accidents between 1 January 2005 and 28 February 2010.
The policeman who shot himself in Khayelitsha, as referred to in the question, had no previous records and/or sanctions against him. In the year 2009, he was, on two occasions, involved in car accidents which resulted in his appearance before the station collision committee. As a precautionary measure, his authority to drive state vehicles was suspended for a period of three months during which he was redeployed to perform community service centre duties.
On Monday, 15 February 2010, whilst chasing a suspect vehicle, he was involved in an accident with a state vehicle where he collided with another state vehicle. On Friday, 19 February 2010, whilst driving a state vehicle, he collided with a private vehicle after which he, unfortunately, shot himself. It is worth mentioning that the member referred to was the only constable deployed as a sector commander and excelled in the performance of his duties. Perhaps, on the issue of the 10 420 vehicles that we spoke about, there are many possible reasons advanced to this effect: firstly, depending on where the vehicles are located; it is a generally known fact that police vehicles travel a huge number of kilometres, annually - they are expected to patrol communities, transport people to court, attend to complaints, and, in some cases, to change their shifts. As the kilometres build up, it is possible that the maintenance and roadworthy condition of the vehicle deteriorates.
Secondly, if one disaggregates the number it translates to about 2 000 vehicles which are being written off yearly as a result of accidents, this means that a relatively high number of vehicles are being written off. This figure should be disaggregated to understand the exact causes. Below are some of the possible reasons for accidents and vehicles being written off: firstly, vehicle damaged while pursuing criminals in car chases - this is plausible; secondly, vehicles damaged in pursuits through rough terrain, particularly in rural or mountainous areas - this is also plausible; thirdly, vehicles damaged through poor maintenance management - this is also traceable on records that show how long the average police vehicle spends in the SAPS maintenance garage. Thank you.
Mr T HARRIS: Chair, in his response, the hon Minister says that he believes that poor maintenance of police vehicles may be leading to their malfunctioning. If that is the case, what measures will he take to prevent that from occurring? The MINISTER OF POLICE: I will follow it up with the head of the department, Gen Cele, to ensure that these things are attended to. We have noted it as the member has posed them; therefore, the general will have to do what is expected of him. Thank you.
Mr F ADAMS: Chairperson, with regard to the number of accidents and the police vehicles which are written off, is there any insurance covering these vehicles?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Well, there is insurance for both employed members driving and the tools of the trade. Thank you.
Mr D A WORTH: Chair, I would like to ask the Minister – maybe he’s got the facts available – how many vehicles have been written off? If 2 000 vehicles are written off per year, I hate to think how many police vehicles have been involved in accidents; few are written off, and some are severely damaged. Does the Minister have any figures for that? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, I still have to go back home and check. Home refers to the Headquarters of the … [Inaudible.]
Mr G G MOKGORO: Chairperson, I was following the last question the Minister answered regarding insurance for the police vehicles and the people who are involved in accidents. I didn’t hear him mentioning what happens if a member of the public is involved in such an accident. Is there any cover for a member of the public? If they are not covered, what is the reason?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, this is a new one. We will check, as I said before. It’s a new thing altogether.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Yes, it’s a new question, because the member wants statistics which I don’t think the Minister is ready to divulge.
Details regarding visible policing programme
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Mr T M H Mofokeng (ANC) asked the Minister of Police:
(1) Whether his department has extended the visible policing programme to townships and informal settlements across the country; if not, why not; if so,
(2) whether the programme uses similar initiatives such as patrol in cars, on foot, horseback, motorcycle or bicycle as in some urban areas; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;
(3) whether he will consider extending such initiatives in the areas that have been identified as “crime hot spots” in the townships; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? CO63E
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon House Chair, to hon Mofokeng, the answer to the first part of the question is yes; the visible policing programme entails all operational policing activities at police stations. The visible policing programme is also implemented at police stations via community policing initiatives such as sector policing, where the police and community work in partnership.
The answer to the second part of the question is yes. The visible policing programme entails police patrol vehicles, foot patrols, horseback patrols, motorcycles and bicycles.
The answer to the third part of the question is yes. The visible policing programme is already implemented in hot spot areas. I thank you.
Mr D V BLOEM: Minister, regarding the unit that arrested Mr Jackson Mthembu, the spokesperson of the ANC, this morning, does it form part and parcel of the police squad, because it is called “the gold squad”? Is it a private security company or not? [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Hon Bloem, before you conclude, that is a totally new question and, moreover, it is something that you claim happened this morning. I don’t think that the Minister will be ready to respond to that question. So, we disregard that question as it is out of order.
Are there any other supplementary questions? No, you are out of order, hon members, because I have ruled that that question is out of order.
Number of applications for work permits and details relating thereto
- Mrs R N Rasmeni (ANC) asked the Minister of Home Affairs: During the period 1 January 2005 up to 28 February 2010, (a) what is the total number of applications for work permits that were (i) received and (ii) declined by her department, (b) what is the total number of work permits that were granted and (c) what is the nature of persons who were (i) granted and (ii) declined work permits? CO64E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chair, I am getting paid for only one job. I hope I will not annoy the hon Bloem with a long response. The total number of applications for work permits received in the period 1 January 2005 to 31 January 2010 was 98 093.
The statistical information for the month of February 2010 cannot be provided yet, as it is still being processed. A total number of 10 532 applications for work permits were declined in the period 1 January 2005 to 31 January 2010. A total number of 87 561 work permits were granted in the period 1 January 2005 to 31 January 2010.
The nature of persons who were granted work permits includes the following and forms an integral part of the number of work permits granted: foreign nationals who possess skills and/or knowledge which is not readily available in the Republic of South Africa; exceptionally skilled foreign nationals; foreign nationals who possess qualifications and experience, of which there is an acute shortage in the Republic of South Africa; and foreign nationals who established their own businesses within the Republic of South Africa.
The nature of persons whose applications for work permits were declined includes those with incomplete documentation as prescribed by the Immigration Act, Act 13 of 2002 and the regulations incorporated in terms thereof, submitted with the applications. It also includes the applicants not complying with the prescribed requirements as set out in the immigration regulations. It included those whose information was not made known in their application, which might be to the detriment of the Republic of South Africa, as well as those whose applications included negative information in respect of their applications, when reviewed. Thank you.
UMBHEXESHI OYINTLOKO WEBHUNGA: Sekela-Sihlalo, ndingathanda ukuqonda kuSekela-Mphathiswa ukuba ingaba urhulumente uqinisekisa njani ukuba la maphepha aza naba bantu bavela kwamanye amazwe ngawenene kwaye naba bantu bangabanini awo la maphepha kunye neziqinisekiso ezo. Oku ndikutsho kuba aba bantu bavela kwamanye amazwe bayayenza into yokuza namaphepha anganyanisekanga. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Deputy Chairperson, I would like to know how the government ensures that these documents the foreigners bring are genuine and that the people who are presenting them are the rightful owners of these documents and certificates. I’m asking this because the foreigners bring and present fraudulent documents.]
USEKELA NGQONGQOSHE WEZASEKHAYA : Mhlonishwa, Sotswebhu oMkhulu, abantu abafaka izicelo zokuthi bazosebenza la eNingizimu Afrika uma befaka izicelo zokuvunyelwa ngokwalolu hlelo lwamakhono angavamile naswelekile, siyaye sizicubungule izicelo zabo nemibhalo abasinikeza yona, ukusukela ezweni lapha umuntu efaka isicelo khona ukuze kuzofinyelela kule nkampani emqashayo azoyisebenzela.
Uma siluqala lolu hlelo sasisebenza nezinkampani ezinhlanu ezinkulu, okuyizona ezaziletha le mininingwane kithi, ukuze sikwazi ukuyicubungula. Saluhlola lolu hlelo ukuthi luzosebenza ngendlela efanelekile yini. Emva kwalokho sabe sesilenyusa inani lalezi zinkampani.
Sinesiqiniseko njengamanje ukuthi uhlelo esilusebenzisayo lusebenza ngendlela efanelekile. Kodwa kuzothi ngokuqala kwenyanga kaMeyi kuwo lo nyaka esikuwo bese sisebenzisa olunye uhlelo - lapho sizobe sisebenzisa izinkampani ezizimele ukuselekelela ukucubungula izicelo nemibhalo efakwa abantu abafisa ukusebenza nokuzovula amabhizinisi kuleli lizwe. Loku esizokubiza nge-Visa outsourcing, okuzokwelekelela emazweni lawa amakhulu njengo-India, oChina noNigeria sikwazi ukusheshisa ukucubungula imibhalo yezicelo zabantu abafisa ukuza ezweni lethu.
Lolu hlelo luzoqala ukusebenza kuwo lawa mazwe amathathu esengiwabalile, bese kuthi uma silubona ukuthi lusebenza kahle, silwenyusele nakwamanye amazwe. Lokho kuzoselekelela ukuthi sisheshise ukunikeza abantu abafanelekile ama-Visa okuthi bakwazi ukuzosebenza eNingizimu Afrika, njengoba kunesikhalo esikhulu sokuthi uMnyango wethu uyaye ikakhulukazi ubabambezele osomabhizinisi, nalabo abanamakhono aswelekile ezweni lethu uma befaka izicelo zokuthi beze ezweni lethu. Lolu hlelo luzosilekelela kakhulu, luyindlela esithuthukisa ngayo izinqubo esizisebenzisayo eMnyangweni. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Chief Whip, when people who send applications to work in South Africa apply for permits through this programme of exceptional and scarce skills, we normally scrutinise their applications and the documents they submit from the country of origin to the company that they are going to work for.
When we started this programme we were working with five big companies, which provided us with this information so that we could scrutinise it. We tested this programme to see if it was going to work properly. After that we increased the number of companies.
We are now certain that the programme we are using is working properly. However, at the beginning of May this year, we will be using another programme. We will be using private companies to assist us in checking the applications and the documents that are submitted by the people who wish to work here or have their businesses in this country. This will be called visa outsourcing, which will assist in respect of big countries like India, China and Nigeria so that we will be able to speed up the process of checking the applications and documents of those who wish to work in our country.
This programme will be utilised in the aforementioned countries, and then if we see that it is working properly, we will take it to other countries too. This programme will assist us in expediting the process of granting visas to people who qualify for them. There is a complaint that our department hinders especially businesspeople and those with scarce skills when they apply for permits to come to our country. This programme will assist us a lot; it is our mechanism of developing the policies that we are using in the department. I thank you.]
Mr D B FELDMAN: Chair, I just can’t understand why we outsource work while we have such a high unemployment rate. Why don’t we train South Africans, instead of outsourcing the work to another country? There are sector education and training authorities, Setas, and other institutions where we can train our workforce. Why do we then outsource work?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chair, let me say the same thing now in English: Basically the request is that I should translate what I said. When somebody applies for a visa to work in South Africa, you can’t apply for that visa when you are already in South Africa. When you are here in South Africa, how will you explain your presence in the Republic of South Africa? You must explain the reason why you want to come to South Africa.
In big countries like Nigeria, China, Brazil and India, businesspeople and people with scarce and exceptional skills complain that the Department of Home Affairs takes too long to process their applications. The people who know who this person is are in that country, not in South Africa. Therefore, we must build capacity in that country so that we are able to expedite that person’s application right in their country of origin.
The first reason why we decided to engage in this programme of outsourcing the processing of the applications for visas is that it will help us to expedite the processing of the applications. Secondly, all countries with which we compare ourselves are engaged in similar programmes with maximum benefits. It will help our programmes to attract foreign nationals to invest in our country or to work in South Africa under the exceptional and scarce skills programme.
This programme will process the applications but the final decision of adjudicating on the person’s application will still be done by the officials of the Department of Home Affairs. It wastes time when the official who adjudicates must start from checking whether the person is a businessperson as claimed, has a criminal record or has the qualifications he claims to have. All of those are required as prerequisites before your application is adjudicated. That is what this programme will do.
We are doing it because in big countries it does not help us to centralise these services and do them ourselves. What it ends up doing is frustrating our businesspeople, trade and investment and the companies that are recruiting scarce and exceptional skills. Government ends up being blamed for something that we could have done better like other countries we compare ourselves to. Thank you.
Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, how will this project that the Deputy Minister refers to improve the turnaround time and the cost of the project and how long will it run? What work permits will be issued to the 40 000 sex workers that are coming to the 2010 Fifa World Cup? How is that going to be handled? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: I did not know that the hon member already knows that there will be 40 000 prostitutes coming for the 2010 Fifa World Cup. I don’t know whether she participated in recruiting them. With regard to this programme that we are talking about, I have just explained in detail, in both isiZulu and English, how it is going to assist in improving services. I could try in Afrikaans.
My Afrikaans is swak, maar ek kan probeer. [My Afrikaans is very poor, but I can try.]
With my Standard 10 Afrikaans, I may end up insulting someone.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): I have an emergency. I have been presented with an urgent request. The Deputy President wants to see the Deputy Minister of International Relations and Co-operation. There is a question that he must respond to. I want to establish whether the member who asked the question, which is hon Lees, will be comfortable with the response being tabled.
Mr R A LEES: Chairperson, the difficulty I have with that is that with oral questions there are follow-up questions, and a tabled response does not have follow-up questions. I would request that, if there is this urgency, the nature of which I am not aware of, that question be dealt with now, rather than later.
Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, on a point of order: I don’t think my question was answered. I thought I was insulted because I quoted a figure of 40 000 which was mentioned on the Sunday Times or The Star front page and I was then accused of helping to canvass them. I think that is an absolute insult. I also think that I asked for a turnaround time, in other words, where a document takes six months or eight months, it will be brought down to two months. I asked for the costs and was also not given a proper answer.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): The problem with follow-up questions that are based on newspaper articles is that you don’t know whether they are factual or just sensational reporting. The rule of questions is quite clear that, if you asked a question based on a newspaper article, you must attach that article. There must be a verification process.
If you put that as a follow-up question without proper facts being put - it could have been just an article for purposes of sensation – it would be quite unfair to expect the Minister to respond to something that he might not even have read. He might not read the Sunday Times. He might have his own Sunday newspaper that he prefers to the Sunday Times. That is why I did not want to put the Minister in an uncomfortable position by responding to that.
Do you agree that the Minister responded to the issues as raised, even during the follow-up? That does not stop you, if you are still uncomfortable, from making a follow-up but not at this particular moment. We want to proceed on this matter.
Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chairperson, on a point of order: Is it parliamentary to allege that an hon member is a pimp?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Who said that?
Mr K A SINCLAIR: The hon Deputy Minister alleged that.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): That is not what I heard.
Mr K A SINCLAIR: Can you then make a ruling on that, please?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): The ruling on that matter is that, as far as I have listened to the Deputy Minister, I did not hear him saying that the hon member is a pimp. That question is out of order.
UMBHEXESHI OYINTLOKO WEBHUNGA: Sekela-Sihlalo, Ndingathanda ukubuza uSekela- Mphathiswa – ziyeke wena ezi zibheke ecaleni izinto – ukuba ingaba ikho na intsebenziswano phakathi kwesebe lakhe nelikaMnu. Cwele malunga nalo mba walo mbuzo wethu. Ndibuza kuba abantu abaninzi bangena ngobuqhophololo ngezi ncwadi zibiweyo baze benze okungekuko oku bathi bakuzele apha eMzantsi Afrika. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Deputy Chairperson, I would like to ask the hon Deputy Minister – never mind the irrelevant stuff – whether there is any co-operation between his department and that of Mr Cwele about the issue in question. I’m asking because many people gain entry into the country fraudulently using stolen identity documents and they do not do what they said they had come for in South Africa.]
USEKELA NGQONGQOSHE WEZASEKHAYA: Siyasebenzisana nayo yonke iMinyango efanelekile ukuthi sibheke amadokodo futhi sicubungule amadokodo abantu abafaka izicelo zokuzosebenza noma ukuzokwenza amabhizinisi la eNingizimu Afrika.
Iningi labantu abangena ngokungemthetho ezweni ngabantu abangangeni ngendlela efanelekile. Sinayo imishini, nezindlela zokucubungula amadokodo abantu abafaka izicelo zama-Visa zokuza eNingizimu Afrika. Abantu abangena ngokunge mthetho yilabo abeqa imingcele noma abafumbathisa abanye uma bezongena ezweni. Kodwa kulabo abazokwenza amabhizinisi noma abanamakhono angavamile, ababaningi abantu esike sabathola abangena ngalolo hlelo. Siyaye sibacubungule besese mazweni abo ukuze kuthi befika lapha sibe sesazi ukuthi siwenze wonke umsebenzi ofanelekile.
Sisebenzisana nezinkampani ngoba akuthina esibabuyisayo kepha basuke bebuyiswa yilezi zinkampani ezifunela bantu imisebenzi zisinikeze uhlu lwabantu ababafunayo nokuthi banaziphi izinhlobo zemfundo namadokodo. Bese thina sicubungula ngaleyo ndlela esenza ngayo ukuze umuntu ekwazi ukuza eNingizimu Afrika. Uma kungukuthi mhlawumbe umuntu ehluleka ukuphumelela ekwenzeni msulwa ngamaphoyisa siyaye ke simnqabele loyo muntu. Njengoba ngisho ababaningi abantu kulolu luhla lwabantu abangena ngalolu hlobo esesibathole ukuthi banezinkinga ezingaleyo ndlela. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: We are working with all the relevant departments when we check and verify the documents of the people who apply for permits to work in South Africa or to run businesses here.
Most of the people who come here illegally are people who do not follow the proper channels in respect of gaining access to this country. We have machines and mechanisms in place to check the visa applications of people who want to come to South Africa. Illegal immigrants are those people who cross the borders or who bribe others to gain access to this country, but amongst those who come to set up businesses or who have scarce skills, we have not found many people who gain entry in that manner. We do the checking while they are still in their countries, so that when they arrive here we already know that all the necessary work has been done.
We are working with the companies because it is not us who send them away but the recruitment companies that we provide with the list of candidates, the information on their educational credentials and the documents. Then we do checking of our own so that a person can be authorised to come to South Africa. If, for example, a person fails a security clearance check, we do not allow that person entry. As I have said earlier, not many people who come here through this programme have been found to have problems of that nature.]
Details regarding government’s position on North Korea’s refusal to co- operate with United Nations and international community with regard to discontinuation of North Korea’s nuclear arms programme
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Mr R A Lees (DA) asked the Minister of International Relations and Co- operation:
(1) What is the government’s position on North Korea’s refusal to co- operate with the United Nations and the international community with regard to the discontinuation of its nuclear arms programme; (2) whether South Africa has (a) taken any diplomatic steps and/or (b) held any discussions with North Korea to discontinue its nuclear arms programme; if not, why not; if so, (i) what steps and (ii) what are the further relevant details? CO79E
The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Chairperson, there are two questions, but I’ll treat them as one. The position of government is that South Africa recognises the legitimate right of all states, including the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, the DPRK, to use nuclear energy for peaceful purposes only.
Furthermore, South Africa believes that it is a prerequisite for peace and security in the region that the DPRK, as a confidence-building measure, verifiably prove to the international community that it has permanently and fully dismantled any nuclear weapons.
Since the announcement by the DPRK in February 2005 that it has developed a nuclear weapon deterrent capability, South Africa has consistently called on the DPRK to verifiably dismantle any nuclear weapons; to return to the nuclear nonproliferation treaty without delay; to place all its facilities under the comprehensive International Atomic Energy Agency, IAEA, verification; and to contribute, through strengthened confidence-building measures, to global nuclear disarmament and nonproliferation. With regard to question number two, the answer is yes. In bilateral meetings between the South African and the DPRK governments, South Africa has consistently recreated its support for the military denuclearisation of the Korean Peninsula; the six-party talks; and the nonproliferation of nuclear weapons and its condemnation of the nuclear test by the DPRK.
In the statement at the recent meeting of the IAEA Board of Governors that was held in Vienna from 1 to 5 March 2010, South Africa expressed regret at the lack of progress on the IAEA verification mandate in the DPRK, and urged the DPRK to comply with the legally binding requirements of the United Nations Security Council, UNSC, as outlined in its resolution 1874 adopted by the UN Security Council on 12 December 2009. Similar statements were made previously in IAEA board meetings.
Furthermore, I wish to inform hon members that, in accordance with the UN Security Council decisions, we recently confiscated military items from the DPRK in transit through South Africa, and have reported the matter to the UN Security Council. Thank you.
Details regarding reparations paid to victims of apartheid atrocities
following Truth and Reconciliation Commission process
- Ms D Z Rantho (ANC) asked the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development: Whether all victims of apartheid atrocities were paid reparations following the Truth and Reconciliation Commission process; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? CO65E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, as a brief background, I would like to inform the hon member that the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act created a political and moral climate for grounds of democracy and the fostering of the culture of human rights. It provided for the establishment of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, TRC, for the specific purpose of promoting national unity and reconciliation in a spirit of understanding that goes beyond the conflicts and divisions of the past.
In order to achieve this goal, the commission was mandated to, amongst other things, conduct investigations into gross human rights violations; facilitate and initiate the gathering of information and the receiving of evidence to establish the identity of victims, their fate or whereabouts and the harm suffered by them and grant amnesty for acts, attempted acts, missions and the offences associated with political activities.
One of the key functions of the TRC was to make recommendations to the President. These recommendations were to include, amongst others, reparations to victims. The Act defines reparation as including any form of compensation, ex gratia payment, restitution, rehabilitation or recognition. Victims are also defined in the Act and include certain relatives or dependants of victims. I would like to inform the hon member that the following number of victims were paid following the truth and reconciliation process.
Firstly, in terms of urgent interim reparations, individual reparations of up to R5 705 were paid to 16 654 victims. In total, an amount of approximately R50 million has been paid to victims as interim reparations, as at 31 January 2009.
Secondly, in respect of final reparations, in other words, once-off individual grants of R30 000, an amount of R476 million was paid, as of 31 January 2009. The total number of persons who applied for reparations as approved by the TRC is 16 837. The total number of beneficiaries paid to date is 15 956. The total number of beneficiaries yet to be paid is 881. The reasons why these 881 beneficiaries could not be paid are as follows: Firstly, the beneficiaries have passed on, and attempts are being made to establish the rightful next of kin, in terms of the regulations directing the payment of reparations, and that explains 219 of those 881.
Thirdly, 662 beneficiaries could not be traced, and I would like to inform the hon member that, as at 30 April 2004, 2 320 beneficiaries could not be paid, as they could not be located. From that time, 30 April 2004, until now, the department has traced and paid 1 439 beneficiaries. Therefore, as at 11 March 2010, 881 beneficiaries must still be paid.
In an effort to expedite the process, the department has taken the following steps: Firstly, the Department of Home Affairs, the Department of Health, the Department of Social Development and the Independent Electoral Commission have been provided with a list of the outstanding beneficiaries to assist in tracing them.
Secondly, the service of a professional tracing agency was secured in August 2009 to assist in tracing the remaining beneficiaries. The tracing agency has already established the possible addresses of 201 beneficiaries and the President’s Fund office is currently contacting these beneficiaries and confirming their identities. Thank you.
Mr S D MONTSITSI: Chairperson, there are those who were excluded by the pardon process that the former President opened on the basis that the Presidency did not want to interfere with the process of the TRC. So, all those whom the TRC did not give pardon to were excluded in the second process of pardon. Hence, I wish to ask the Deputy Minister whether there is a possibility of making presentations on behalf of those who have been excluded in the process, because we do have members of the nonstatutory forces who are Members of Parliament who were excluded by the TRC and were not given pardon. I would like to know whether the Ministry will be amenable to receiving applications from those members, because, to this day, they are not cleared and the state law agencies can easily pounce on them in future if they do not receive the necessary pardon. Thank you.
Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, on a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Mr Bloem, what is your point of order?
Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, I don’t think that this question is relevant; he is talking about pardoning and reparations.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Hon Bloem, please sit down. Unless the hon Bloem wants to tell us that he’s got serious ambitions of being a Deputy Minister, the Deputy Minister is here to respond to the questions. If the Deputy Minister feels that the question is irrelevant or he doesn’t have the facts, he will tell us that as a Deputy Minister he is prepared to come back to the House to respond to this particular question and not the hon Bloem. Over and above that, I have also been given the responsibility to determine whether the matter is relevant or not.
Mr D V BLOEM: I’ve refused to be a Minister, not a Deputy Minister.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Can you please sit down, hon Bloem.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, the follow-up question by hon Montsitsi is definitely far from irrelevant. In fact, it is a very relevant question, but it is also a very complex and involved question.
I think members would be aware that the TRC completed its work, that there were a number of people who had not applied for amnesty, that former President Mbeki put in place a process to deal with those matters and that that process has yet to be completed and that aspects of that process have been taken to the Constitutional Court, which has given judgment recently.
In view of the multifaceted and the quite complex nature of the question, I think it would be much better served by a question of its own that would allow us to deal with the matter comprehensively. Thank you.
Assistance given by SA Police Service to mining industry in the Free State to stop illegal mining and details relating thereto
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Mr D A Worth (DA) asked the Minister of Police:
Whether the SA Police Service is actively assisting the mining industry in the Free State to stop illegal mining; if not, why not; if so, (a) what is the policy of the SAPS in this regard, (b) what is the nature of the assistance provided, (c) what procedures are being followed in dealing with the many illegal immigrants involved and (d) what are the further relevant details? CO72E
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chairperson, the answer to the question asked by the hon Worth is yes. The SAPS is involved in a joint effort with the mining industry and other role-players in the Free State to combat illegal mining in that part of our country through well-planned and co-ordinated police operations.
A permanent task team was established on 1 June 2009 to combat illegal mining. It consists of members of the force, particularly the Hawks. In addition, the assistance of other role-players, such as the prosecuting authority and the Department of Home Affairs, is sourced as and when required. Illegal mining is also addressed through court-directed investigations.
Illegal immigrants are dealt with in close co-operation with the Department of Home Affairs. They are the responsible line function department, according to normal procedures laid down in immigration legislation.
Monthly meetings are held with stakeholders in order to co-ordinate actions. I thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Hon members, you will remember that the Deputy Chair, during her opening remarks, made reference to Rule 246(4). So, we will jump Questions 13, 14, 15 and 16 and proceed to Question 17 by the hon Van Lingen to the hon Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development.
Measures taken to address levels of communication and co-operation between SA Police Service and prosecutors in rural areas, and appointment of sheriffs in each rural local municipality
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Mrs E C van Lingen (DA) asked the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development:
(1) Whether his department has taken any measures to address the levels of communication and co-operation between the SA Police Service and prosecutors in rural areas; if not, why not; if so, (a) what measures and (b) what are the further relevant details;
(2) whether any sheriffs are appointed in each rural local municipality; if not (a) why not and (b) what action is being taken to address this matter? CO77E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, as part of the initiatives of the criminal justice system review, a protocol in respect of the management of the investigation and proper screening of cases countrywide is poised to be concluded.
This protocol, already operational in several provinces, facilitates the restructuring of the investigation and court processes in order to ensure that courts are focused on trials, rather than administrative matters, such as postponements.
It creates integrated SAPS, NPA, provincial management structures and local detective, prosecutor and screening mechanisms, the latter at each seat of the regional courts in the country. The local screening mechanisms are responsible for the investigation and management of all cases enrolled in the courts that are not trial-ready. They issue instructions for further investigation, follow up on progress and ensure that dockets are properly managed right through to the finalisation of the investigation.
At a provincial level, the responsibility for the management of investigations and the screening of cases is assigned to a suitably experienced investigating officer designated by the SAPS, just below the rank of provincial commissioner - if the Minister were here I would ask him whether that should be a lieutenant general - and a suitably experienced prosecutor designated by the NPA, just below the rank of Deputy Director of Public Prosecutions.
Together these persons are responsible for the management of investigations and the screening of cases. They are also responsible for the establishment of local screening mechanisms, as well as the supervising, overseeing, directing and guiding of these processes.
The local screening mechanisms consist of a detective, court case officer or officers designated by the SAPS and a screening prosecutor or prosecutors designated by the NPA. The local screening mechanism is responsible for the management of the investigation of all cases enrolled in the courts that are not trial-ready, and should, where possible, manage the decision dockets requiring further investigation.
A closer interaction between the SAPS and the NPA is fostered, with a particular focus on the more serious cases which are to be heard in the regional courts. This protocol applies across the entire country, including rural areas.
Secondly, and this is quite a different aspect of the question, in terms of section 2 of the Sheriffs Act, a sheriff needs to be appointed for every court. Consequently, all rural municipalities form part of a magisterial district covering that particular area. However, the department has experienced challenges in attracting suitable persons for the appointment of sheriffs in the small rural areas due to the economic nonviability of these areas.
People are discouraged by the low volume of the court processes and the vast distances to be travelled from the local court to serve court processes. Of the 366 magisterial districts covering the entire geographical area of the Republic serviced by sheriffs, 30% are regarded as economically nonviable and process less than 500 court processes and generate less than R150 000 gross income per annum. The economically nonviable offices are located mainly in the poor rural areas of the Eastern Cape, Limpopo and Northern Cape provinces.
Several interventions were taken to address the problems to ensure that communities in these areas have equal access to justice. The past interventions included the possible combination of a number of small areas into two or more areas to increase the size of the service area for which a sheriff is appointed. This is with a view to make them more economically viable for the incumbents.
This intervention has had its own downside as one sheriff still has to service a vast area and is often not accessible to a community living in some of the combined areas. As part of the several initiatives being undertaken by the department to transform the sheriffs’ profession, legislative amendments to the Sheriffs Act have been proposed to provide for the appointment of state officers as sheriffs in small rural villages which are incapable of attracting suitable candidates for appointment as sheriffs.
The proposed amendments have been included in the Judicial Matters Amendment Bill of 2010, which was published on 15 February 2010 for public comment. Pending the enactment of this legislation, ad hoc arrangements have been put in place in terms of which the clerk of the court will appoint a neighbouring sheriff to serve court processes in the villages where a sheriff has not been appointed. Thank you.
Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, I don’t know if they mentioned in my question the origin or the municipality that I am referring to. However, I am specifically talking about the Baviaans municipality in question (1) and (2) where too many cases, in spite of the screening process, are dropping off the table between the police, the magistrates and the prosecutors. We find that the magistrate is blaming somebody else. They are all shifting the blame instead of, as the hon Deputy Minister said, them working on an outcome basis and trying very hard to get through the poor case preparation.
However, when we were in the Sekhukhune District Municipality in Limpopo we came across the very same problem with regard to stock theft, where people said they go and lay charges because their animals are stolen. And some offences happen over the weekend, the police come and arrest people, and somehow there would be no charges laid against the criminals. The next day the same criminals are roaming the streets again.
So, in Afrikaans sou ons sê, die pap val op die grond. [In Afrikaans we would say, we have dropped the ball.]
We need to address this because the people are really desperate and they actually want to take the law into their own hands. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, hon member, there were no specific details attached to the question, so it would be difficult for me to comment specifically on the situation in the Baviaans Local Municipality. What I will undertake to do is to look at the specifics of that situation and to come back to the member on that.
If I can just say to the hon member and all members of this House that it is questions of this nature that we appreciate very much, because they provide the kind of oversight that is necessary for us to make sure that the policies and the mechanisms that we devise at a national level are indeed being implemented as we would want on the ground level. So, thank you very much for that information.
Secondly, on the matter relating to stock theft in Sekhukhune, again I would have to come back to the member on the details, but I can say that the Ministry of Police and I were both present on Monday at the AgriSA conference on rural crime. The issue of stock theft was discussed extensively.
We had present with us the person in the office of the National Director of Public Prosecutions who is the liaison person dealing with stock theft. We were able to interact extensively and very positively with AgriSA on refining those measures which are already in place to combat stock theft and other forms of rural crime. Thank you.
Details regarding policy of department on officials who have been declared medically unfit being employed by other security services
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Mrs E C van Lingen (DA) asked the Minister of Correctional Services:
Whether her department has a policy on officials who have been declared medically unfit being employed by other security services; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? CO78E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (on behalf of the Minister of Correctional Services): Chairperson, the officials who have been declared medically unfit are handled in terms of the Policy and Procedure on Incapacity Leave and Ill-Health Retirement for Public Service employees, commonly known as Pilir. In compliance with this policy, the department has appointed a health risk manager who makes recommendations to the delegated authority within the department for decision-making in such cases.
Once a person is on ill-health retirement or any form of termination of service, the department has no control over that person. The policy is also applicable while the official is still employed by the department. Once the official is medically boarded, the policies of the Department of Correctional Services, DCS, no longer have legal jurisdiction over such an employee. DCS, therefore, has no record of retired officials who are employed by other security services. Thank you.
Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, I’m actually quite astounded because if a person is declared medically unfit, does it not mean that that person gets a pension when he is retired? Do you understand my question?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): It’s for the Minister; let’s first check whether the Deputy Minister understands.
Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: Mr Chairperson, the reason I’m asking this question is because I’m sitting with a case like this in Kouga Local Municipality where the mayor has appointed three of those officials. One of them happens to be his brother-in-law and not one of the positions are actually on the organograms. The Minister says they have no further jurisdiction over them, but I thought that when a person is medically boarded, he or she is off on pension? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (on behalf of the Minister of Correctional Services): I will provide two answers to this. On the one hand, the primary consideration, of course, is whether or not the said person is doing the same job for which he or she was boarded. If that’s the case, this should be reported and the Department of Correctional Services will investigate.
On the other hand, I think that when hon members or any hon member is aware of instances like these, he or she should report the matter so that it can be investigated. Should hon members do that, the relevant department can take a decision on the matter, whether it has jurisdiction over it or whether it should be referred to the Public Service Commission. The question is general and one can’t deal with conjecture. If there was a specific issue which the question related to, then that issue should have been raised in the question so that we provide a response that deals with that particular issue. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Maybe the last comment by the Deputy Minister must, in actual fact, be a comment that is relevant to all of us in the House because the tendency is that the question, as put, is general, but the person has got further details. When one makes a follow-up then one brings that detail up. At that point it becomes difficult for the executive to then respond to those specific matters. I would really suggest and appeal to members that, in future, they should rather provide the executive with more information in order for them to respond to the kind of specifics we want them to respond to.
Hon members, Question 20 is also affected by Rule 246(4). Therefore we will then go to the last question because Question 22 is also affected. The last question would be the question by the hon Sinclair to the Minister of State Security. Let me take this opportunity to thank the Ministers who have responded to questions. They may leave the House if they so wish. We appreciate your presence. Thank very much.
Allegations in media report regarding a certain person’s access to documents of department and repudiation of statements by Minister, and
details relating thereto
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Mr K A Sinclair (Cope) asked the Minister of State Security:
(1) Whether a certain person (details furnished) had access to documents of his department as alleged in a media report (details furnished); if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details;
(2) whether he will repudiate the statements; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details? CO81E
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chairperson, on the hon Sinclair’s question on whether a certain person, whose details were furnished, had access to documents of my department, as alleged in the media reports, and if not, what the position is in this regard; if so, what the relevant details are, the reply is as follows: The said person, Mr Julius Malema, did not have access to documents of my department’s State Security Agency. It is not our policy or practice to give information to unauthorised persons.
On the second question, whether I will repudiate the statements, and if not, what the position is in this regard; if so, what the relevant details are, the reply is as follows: Mr Malema did not at any stage allege to have obtained documents from the State Security Agency, as stated by the hon member in the question. He, instead, referred to a document that he got from what he called “intelligence officers”. We have issued a media statement in this regard. In addition, the State Security Agency will apply its counterintelligence mandate in view of the seriousness of the allegation. I thank you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Thank you very much, Minister. I asked if there was a follow-up question. Mr K A SINCLAIR: Yes, thank you for the opportunity. I was just thinking, Deputy Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Oh, okay.
Mr K A SINCLAIR: Deputy Chairperson, would the hon Minister then agree that the person referred to, Mr Julius Malema, misled the nation with regard to the allegations that he made in the press?
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Deputy Chairperson, as I have said, I would not agree with that. I will not agree with that statement, because, as I have said, at no stage did Mr Julius Malema ever say that he got any secret document or classified document from the State Security Agency police structures. Instead, Deputy Chairperson, it was the political parties who put the allegation in the newspaper. Thank you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): I will say it again: Thanks very much, Ministers, for making yourselves available. We hope you will do the same next time. Thank you.
See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.
UNPARLIAMENTARY LANGUAGE
(Ruling) The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): May I then give the information as to what Mr Watson had actually raised. Hon members, I would like to make a ruling on the point of order raised by hon Watson about a statement alleged to have been made by hon Ntwanambi during a plenary on Wednesday, 10 March 2010.
However, before I make a ruling, I would like to remind members that the motion was objected to by hon E C van Lingen, and I have accepted the objection of the hon member.
The objection of hon Watson was mainly on the wording of the motion, namely whether it is parliamentary for a member to accuse the premier of a province, who is also a leader of a delegation from the Western Cape, of ethnic cleansing. I indicated that I would study the Hansard records and make a ruling.
After perusal of the Hansard records, I did not come across a statement where reference was made to the effect that the hon premier is responsible for ethnic cleansing. However, I came across a statement that reads as follows:
Acknowledges that this sacrilegious act is a modified form of ethnic cleansing that is driven by the DA’s racist tendencies and is intended to cause destruction and instability in these areas.
Therefore, my earlier ruling still stands: that the motion without notice moved by hon Ntwanambi and objected to by hon Van Lingen, remains as a notice of motion. I will then say that that concludes the ruling and the business of the day. [Applause.]
The Council adjourned at 17:04. ____
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
- The Minister of Trade and Industry
(a) Preferential Trade Agreement (PTA) between the Southern African
Customs Union (SACU) and the Common Market of the South (MERCOSUR),
tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.
(b) Explanatory Memorandum to the Preferential Trade Agreement
(PTA) between the Southern African Customs Union (SACU) and the
Common Market of the South (MERCOSUR).