FRIDAY, 23 APRIL 2010
                                ____


          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

                               ______

The Council met at 09:33.

The Deputy Chairperson (Ms T C Memela) took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers and meditation.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

                           (Policy debate)

Vote No 3 – Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs:

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Hon Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP, MECs present and those that are still coming, members of this august House, as well as the officials and members of the media, once more, it is an honour for me to be given this opportunity to come and present the Budget Vote of the Department of Co- operative Governance and Traditional Affairs in this august House.

The interaction with this House reminds me of and revives the fond memories of debates we had in this House. We used to have very serious and robust debates and discussions, particularly when I was at the service of this House as a Chairperson of the Select Committee on Local Government and Administration.

Members will recall that during the past debate on the first budget of the department, we raised issues which we believed this House had to ensure that it focused on. One of the most important things that we raised is that the NCOP has to be reviewed, and that it must be a structure that represents the interests of provinces and municipalities. By so doing, you ensure that municipalities have permanent status and do not come here as observers. Equally, that is going to increase the numbers of the NCOP to ensure that you come with a figure that will enable you to do your work properly.

It is quite important that we begin to look at how we ensure that the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, as a custodian of Chapter 3 of the Constitution, is able to work together with the NCOP because I believe that, in terms of our mandates, we are partners. Your area of focus is the legislative component, and ours is the executive. The question is: How do we begin to engage ourselves in this? I’m now concretely proposing in this forum, this Friday, that we must, probably, have a bilateral relationship as the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs and the NCOP. As we speak, there are three important things that we are doing, which we think are at the centre of your work. Firstly, we are developing a Green Paper on co-operative governance, which we believe the NCOP can enrich as we move forward. Secondly, we are developing a law on support, monitoring and intervention by national government in provincial governments and by provincial governments in municipalities. Of course, the custodian of oversight with regard to that aspect is the NCOP.

We would be happy, hon Deputy Chairperson, if you can give us your technical people to work with us on this from the start, as we are drafting this. For example, we know, as a matter of fact, that one of the experienced officials that you have is Mr Momothi who deals with such issues. We think that, if you do so, we will be able to ensure that we move forward.

The last area of importance which we think we are supposed to collaborate and co-operate with you on is the area around “Taking Parliament to the People.” We believe that issues that emanate from that programme are supposed to be tabled before us as much as they are tabled to the Leader of Government Business. We believe so because our responsibility is to ensure that local and provincial governments work well and in tandem with the national government. We are co-ordinating the whole of government and that is why we are called the “Department of Co-operative Governance”. From our point of view, we believe that you are more of our partners than any other person in the executive. Therefore we must be able to take that one up.

One of the most important things that I think we must be able to engage in with you is the executive taking the NCOP seriously. From the level of the premier to the MECs, we must begin to engage in this question. Their House is this one and it’s more important than the National Assembly. When they go to the National Assembly they sit in the gallery like any other visitor, but here they are afforded an opportunity to engage in the issues. I think we must be able to talk about this as we move forward. [Applause.]

South Africa is moving to exciting times. One of the most important things in this ANC-led government is that there is going to be a transparent process called an outcomes-based system. Through this process we will ensure that the President signs an agreement with the Minister. The Minister will in turn sign an agreement, not only with counterparts but all municipalities. Through this process we will also identify areas of performance for a period of four years so that the nation and everybody knows what is going to be done, what is expected, and how to ensure that we take the country forward.

This is an element which I think the NCOP, at some point, must be taken through because those are the tools and instruments that are going to be used to monitor the performance of Ministers. From our point of view, we believe that this is exciting. There is no government, which I know of, that ever came up with an outcome-based system - a system of how to monitor the performance, not only of the administrators but also of the elected politicians. That is why I’m saying we are living in exciting times as we move forward.

We believe that the issues of oversight, strong intergovernmental relations, and monitoring and evaluation are quite important with regard to issues of service delivery. The voice of the NCOP has been heard, particularly during the protests when people were raising issues and when the committee was crisscrossing our country engaging on those matters. We are saying you must continue and do your work looking at issues. You must continue to do your work without fear, favour or prejudice. You are representing the interests of our people here. You are representing the voice of the voiceless in these structures. Therefore you must be able to take up issues.

The department has developed the local government turnaround strategy, LGTAS, which is a mantra and a strategy that you must know by heart. This strategy is going to be the basis for the programmes of government at the local level for many years to come. Many policies are going to be developed out of this. Many laws are going to come out of this. It is important that you and the citizenry are informed about this.

Yesterday I listened to somebody, who is a Member of Parliament and a chairperson of a committee in the National Assembly, saying somebody, who is not a Member of Parliament, was criticising the LGTAS. This chairperson – a very important and powerful chairperson – said he could not engage in that debate because he had never read the LGTAS. He further said that the debate motivated him to go and read it. I told him that he was supposed to have done so a long time ago. I told him to go and read the document.

It is more dangerous and bad when members of the community engage you on the turnaround strategy only to find that you, as Members of Parliament, don’t know about it. We believe that the LGTAS is something we want to take up. The committee has made us aware that they would require us to have a workshop on it. We are ready. We are going to workshop you so that you understand it by heart.

One of the most fundamental things here is that we have been given the responsibility of co-ordinating government, particularly in areas of municipal basic services: water, sanitation, electricity, refuse removal, disaster management, as well as municipal roads. We believe that these issues are issues that we must attend to. We must make sure that the way in which we do our work doesn’t allow a situation where money is withheld by government because the municipality could not spend it.

The question that is supposed to be asked by the NCOP is: If the municipality could not spend, what support mechanisms did you give to that municipality? What capacity programmes did we implement in that municipality? It is not a municipality’s fault; it’s the apartheid system’s fault that these municipalities don’t have the capacity. It’s due to the historical past. Therefore, the role that you must play is that of taking up these issues, engaging in them, and ensuring that these municipalities are functioning.

We want to create a special purpose vehicle — a structure that can ensure that services are delivered on the ground. In South Africa we have a situation where the weak are the least supported, and the strong are the ones that are given resources because the system of budgeting and allocating resources is based on the number of people, that is, the population statistics. It means that if you are a bigger population you get more money. If you are poor you remain poor due to the way the resources are allocated. We are, therefore, saying that that system has to change. We must be able to look at the backlogs and the topography.

With regard to service delivery in the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal, for example, when you have to pump up water in the hills and hillocks, it requires more resources than bringing such services in a flat and plain area like Gauteng, North West and the Northern Cape. Therefore, you must be able to factor in the topography of areas when allocating resources. We are saying, therefore, there must be a review of the way resources are being allocated.

Furthermore, the municipalities’ baseline was based on the fact that municipalities get 95% of their funds from their own revenue. The reality is that close to 40% of their revenue is from grants. This means that the way we have been allocating resources is something that has to be reviewed and changed.

We have quantified the six services that I’ve spoken about. The required resources add up to an amount of about R495 billion. We have even managed to identify where four of these are being least delivered. We have found that the Western Cape is leading. Eighty-eight per cent of these services are found in the Eastern Cape; followed by Gauteng with 79%; the Northern Cape is third; and the province with the least services is Limpopo. Only 15% of Limpopo areas have these services. The reasons for that are that they incorporated underdeveloped homelands into their system, and the issue of budgeting doesn’t consider these things. This means they will remain poorer if we don’t change the way things are done.

At the same time, when you look at electricity only, in terms of backlogs in relation to electricity infrastructure, it’s about R27 billion that is required to ensure that you provide electricity to all. We will be having discussions with the Minister of National Treasury and the Minister of Energy in order to look at the surcharges on electricity. The department feels that resources are not used in a manner where they are ploughed back to electricity. They subsidise other services and you find that our infrastructure leaves a lot to be desired.

Furthermore, we will be having such discussions because electricity is the number one generator of revenue in municipalities, and you find that this resource is not used in a manner that ensures that maintenance of the cash cow takes place. So we will be discussing the ways and means of dealing with these issues.

One of the critical things that we are also presenting is that the time for municipalities to employ unqualified people is over. Next week we will be presenting a Bill in the national Cabinet where we will be coming with criteria for people to be employed. We are saying that should anybody – including the councillors - employ unskilled people, they will take personal liability and responsibility. And if we know … [Interjections.] All parties employ their cadres.

Let me tell you about this issue of cadres. The Western Cape government has been involved in an African cleansing. [Interjections.] They have removed 130 black managers who are Indians, coloureds and Africans. [Interjections.] They removed them. If you go to the provincial government here, they have removed women - some of them with disabilities, like Shanaaz Majiet - and employed males in those positions, white males to be specific. The issue of cadre deployment must not be used as a way of trying to undermine what is being done.

The DA practises cadre deployment. The difference between the DA and the ANC is that the ANC is vocal about cadre deployment. It doesn’t do it secretly and in dark corners; the ANC is very transparent. [Applause.] Therefore I’m saying let’s not politicise the issue of local government. Let’s deal with the facts.

I can tell you about wrong things that are done by this Western Cape government and the City of Cape municipality; they are shocking. One of these is that you have a 40 000-seater stadium in Orlando, which cost R280 million to build, while Cape Town spent over R4 billion building a 70 000-seater stadium. When they were designing this stadium here, they didn’t know the variations of 60% of the costs.

You look at the bus rapid transit, BRT, here; they underestimated by an amount of over R3 billion. Here, in the Western Cape, they’ve built toilets with no structure and people need to hide when using those toilets. [Interjections.] We have an area here known as Khayelitsha, where you have 5 000 people — in the heart of the city — with no sanitation. When they want to relieve themselves, they have to cross the N2 road in order to do so. [Interjections.]

There are a lot of things that are happening here. People are trying to create an impression that the Western Cape is run so well and it does things well; that’s not true. Let all of us focus on dealing with the problems; let’s not politicise them. Let’s ensure that we improve the system of local government in South Africa. All of us can make it better without applying party labels and saying one is doing well. There are many things that I can reveal about the way the DA runs things. I don’t want to go into that but, equally, don’t provoke us because we have information that we can present to you … [Interjections.] … in your face; that is what we always do.

We also want to say that we are moving forward; we are surging ahead. Issues of development are being taken up, and we believe that we will never betray our people in focusing on what has to be done. Local government is changing for the better. It is going to change and you are going to see a difference. We believe that the only way to succeed is to work together. That’s the only way to take things forward.

We must be able to rise above sectoral or party petty interests, and focus on issues at hand. Our people expect us to lead them. Our people expect us to be able to give them improved quality of lives. That is what our people are expecting us to do as they have deployed us in this House. This rings true particularly with regard to the NCOP. The NCOP is a House that represents the interests of provinces. It is not a House that represents the interests of parties. We must not forget that. We must always be reminded of what this House is all about and be able to stick to that mandate. Some people always say that the ANC undermines the Constitution and forget about the way they do things.

In conclusion, Deputy Chairperson, we want to say without fear of contradiction that the choir in South Africa is beginning to sing very well. From the melody and song we will succeed. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Mr S GQOBANA (Eastern Cape): Deputy Chair, hon Minister, Deputy Minister, hon members of this august House, special delegates, hon MEC from KwaZulu- Natal, KZN, I am very thrilled and happy about the commitment of the hon Minister and the Deputy Minister in striving to turn around our municipalities. The budget speech is clear and very promising.

I am also happy to note that the budget has been increased. I think, hon Minister and Deputy Minister, there should be a very serious debate as to how we should fund local government sufficiently so as to ensure that we take our responsibilities and mandate seriously. Currently, local government is being treated as one of the departments, yet the challenges on the ground are mounting and require some resources to be able to deal with them.

The following are areas that I have noted with enthusiasm in the speech: the new outcomes-based approach that will culminate in the signing of performance contracts; the acknowledgement of distress that prevails in some of our municipalities - which all of us are aware stems from inter- and intraparty conflicts that have undermined all efforts of our committed and diligent personnel; the significance of reviewing intergovernmental fiscal relations based on reliable baseline data for appropriate allocation of the equitable share that recognises other factors; and the realisation of the need to enhance and strengthen the ward committee system without which sustainable engagement of our communities is unrealisable.

Furthermore, I also noted the need to review the supply chain management so that it facilitates smooth service delivery rather than retards it; the need to build public confidence in our municipalities through building sound relationships between communities, labour and municipal leadership; rooting out corruption; and, finally, the determination of norms and standards to deploy councillors in the next election is plausible as this will completely change the image of local government in the country. The latter goes hand in glove with the revival and strengthening of the Local Government Training Academy to train councillors after the next elections.

It is my pleasure to also demonstrate my commitment in supporting the efforts of the Minister’s department in the province of the Eastern Cape. With regard to the local government turnaround strategy, LGTAS, our department has established six teams that are led by the top management that visits all municipalities in the province. To date, 32 municipalities have been assisted to develop their municipal turnaround strategies, Mutas. To address the unique challenges of a municipality the department uses a home-brewed tool to identify the real root causes of their problems. The results are complementing the development of the Mutas.

I must report up front that all teams are reporting high-level participation of councils, ratepayers and ward committees in this programme. However, there is low-key participation from the unions, despite the fact that the department has met with their provincial leadership and also decided to include them as members of the Munimec.

There are emerging issues from the visits that have already been undertaken. These include water-related matters, which seem to top the list. The Eastern Cape is hit by drought and since it is an area that is highly rural, water is the economic driver. The rural nature of the province makes it depend on agriculture and water is key. To be able to provide good sanitation water is of the essence.

Local economic development is similarly affected. Participation of sector departments in the integrated development plan, IDP, must be enforced, in particular if we want to ensure that local government is everybody’s business. The oversight role of councils to promote accountability has to be seriously undertaken.

However, the hon Minister is committed to accelerate the framework for municipal public accounts committees. This will undoubtedly improve performance and good governance in municipalities. We have since received the SA Local Government Association’s, Salga, guidelines in this regard. Public participation is too ad hoc in municipalities. This is not a prioritised function despite its centrality in service delivery and developmental local government.

Local municipalities seem to have virtually no capacity to deal with even the smaller disasters. They solely depend on the district municipalities which are responsible for this function. Some of them, by the way, do not have the necessary capacity to speedily attend to matters of this nature. The legacy of apartheid in spatial planning is still a huge challenge.

Most municipalities are unable to attract and retain town planners due to their nonlucrative remuneration packages. Municipalities need to be assisted with legal officers. Most municipalities in the province outsource this function even for minor services such as legal advice, ending up paying huge sums of money. Since they do not have legal officers, they cannot even monitor such services as rendered by the external service providers. In many cases aba baboneleli ngeenkonzo bemka nalo lonke ulwazi kungabikho namaxwebhu aqulethe ulwazi asalayo phaya kwaba masipala, [these service providers take all the information with them and there are no documents containing the information in these municipalities].

And the result is that, when auditing is taking place, there is not a single document available.

We are also pleased to note that the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs co-ordinates other departments such as Water and Environmental Affairs, Energy and Human Settlements precisely because these are some of the issues that are confronting the province. The delay in attending to matters that are confronting the province is worrisome. Therefore we believe that the assistance of the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs in co-ordinating this would assist us in moving forward.

With regard to the issue of corruption, we fully support your commitment, hon Minister and Deputy Minister, in using an iron fist to deal with this matter because it robs our people of the opportunity to enjoy a better life during their lifetime. In our case, we are dealing decisively with this matter. As we speak, it is possible that by next week the Kou-Kamma Local Municipality will be without a single section 57 manager because of this particular matter. We are not laughing when it comes to this.

Equally, many of you might have seen our resolution in dealing with this matter in the Alfred Nzo District Municipality. The hon member of this House, Mlenzana, would attest to the fact that many of the officials, including key officials in political party structures, have landed in jail; particularly because they were siphoning municipal funds for their own ends.

We also have a good relationship with traditional leaders in the province. We are trying to follow on what you have alluded to in terms of having a separate house or department. We are making the house of traditional leaders a separate programme whilst we are discussing a long-term plan of making it a separate entity. The house of the executive council is full- time, from the chairperson up to the other members of the house.

Kings have also received new cars. I think you must have read about a serious uproar in the province regarding the expenditure we incurred. We said anyone who has a concern about that must phone his or her king because each resident in the Eastern Cape belongs to a particular king. Each resident must tell his or her King that he or she does not think that his or her king qualifies for a particular car.

On 5 March 2010 you were officially opening a house of the traditional leaders, a very beautiful house, and that has since strengthened our resolution and relationship with them. However, there are some little things that we need to iron out. Therefore we hope that the Munimec on the 7th would assist us in dealing with those matters.

Lastly, with regard to the issue of infrastructure which is bedevilling our municipalities, we would be pleased if this matter could be seriously taken up at national level to assist our municipalities to deliver their services. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon members, before I call the next speaker, may I notify you that there are public management students from Northlink College Parow Campus in the House. You are welcomed.

Mr J M BEKKER: Deputy Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister, hon MECs, hon colleagues, guests and visitors, I am glad to be part of today’s debate about co-operative governance. Local government is one of the most important responsibilities of national and provincial government. If these two spheres of government do not attend to this responsibility, I believe that we are going to have more problems and chaos than we have with crime today. Every one of these three spheres will have to take responsibility and join hands to make a success of the turnaround strategy.

Ek moet die agb Minister gelukwens met sy gedagte van ’n omkeerstrategie en die gedagte van ouditverslae sonder kwalifikasies. Om dit reg te kry, gaan groot verantwoordelikheid en dissipline vereis. Waar gaan hy begin? Wat is die probleem? Wie is die skuldiges? Sommige munisipaliteite kry dit reg om uitstekende diens te lewer. Die inwoners is gelukkig; die ekonomie groei in hierdie gebiede, terwyl daar gebiede is waar baie swak of geen diens gelewer word nie. In dié gebiede val die totale infrastruktuur uitmekaar; inwoners kom in opstand en daar is massabetogings wat baie skade aanrig en verwoesting saai.

Dit is opmerklik dat in gevalle waar bekwame raadslede en kundige amptenare in beheer is, is diens ook van ’n baie hoë gehalte. Daar is baie munisipaliteite onder administrasie, ingevolge artikel 131 van die Grondwet. Ons het verskeie van dié munisipaliteite besoek, en jy kan nie glo dat so ’n chaotieses situasie kan ontstaan nie. In die meeste gevalle sukkel die betrokkenes om politieke optrede en verantwoordelikheid van regeringspligte te skei. Dit is die kern van die probleem by die meeste rade wat onder administrasie is. Raadslede, en veral amptenare, kan nie beloon word met hoë poste omdat hulle goeie partygenote is nie. Dit is die gemeenskap se geld. Ons was by plekke waar die burgemeester ’n groep het, en die Speaker ’n groep het, en elke groep het ’n deel van die amptenary wat slaafs alles doen wat hulle vra, alles in eie belang.

Daar is ’n dorp in die Suid-Kaap waar die amptenare hoër posisies as die raadslede in die partystruktuur beklee. Politieke partye moet hul raadslede beheer, sodat hulle die amptenare kan leiding gee. Wetgewing om raadslede se optrede te beheer, sal gemaak moet word. Byvoorbeeld, ’n raadslid word deur die raad en provinsiale Minister geskors, as gevolg van klagtes van bedrog, maar hy stel hom weer verkiesbaar en word weer verkies. Wat het hierdie hele episode gekos? Hierdie gebeurtenisse maak van die huidige wetgewing ’n bespotting.

In die Eden-distriksmunisipaliteit het die destydse burgemeester regstappe teen die raad gedoen. Hy het nie die aanstelling van die munisipale bestuurder gesteun nie. Hy verloor die saak met koste. Die DA-koalisie haal hom uit, en hy kom terug na twee jaar en skryf die bedrag af, saam met sy ANC-maats. Dit kos R100 000.

Artikel 56-aanstellings is ’n groot probleem. ’n Persoon word beskuldig of aangekla van ’n oortreding, en as hy besef hy gaan skuldig bevind word, bedank hy en beweeg voort. Hy verskoon homself dat hy met die burgemeester of raad probleme gehad het, want hulle beweer hy behoort aan ’n ander politieke party. Hierdie mense moet verhoor word as hulle aangekla word en hulle moet skuldig of onskuldig bevind word. Dan moet daar ’n register wees waar al hul oortredings aangedui word. Daar kan so ’n register opgebou word.

Agb Minister, u moet hier ’n voorbeeld stel, en ek kan die aanstelling van mnr George Seitisho nie regverdig nie. Hy het munisipale geld vir homself gebruik. Hy het dit wel terugbetaal, maar is daar nie nog sake teen hom aanhangig nie? Ek moet hierop ook reageer: Minister, u aanval teen Wes-Kaap en Kaapstad, dink ek, is ongegrond. Ek is ontsteld, want ek het baie munisipaliteite oor die land besoek waar toestande haglik is. As ons politiek maak van hierdie kwessie, gaan ons probleme hê.

Op Oudtshoorn is so pas twee artikel 56-aanstellings gemaak. Geen bewyse van misstappe is beskikbaar nie, maar dit blyk dat hier ’n lang lys aanklagte ontglip het.

Die boekhoustelsel van munisipaliteite is baie kompleks, en die meeste rade sukkel om ’n skoon ouditverslag te kry. Interne oudits en ouditkomitees word misbruik en dien glad nie in hulle doel nie. Onafhanklike interne oudits moet gedoen word wat dan aan die provinsie of ’n onafhanklike liggaam voorgelê moet word, en wat nie deur die burgemeester of munisipale bestuurder gemanipuleer kan word nie. Onafhanklike ouditkomitees kan as waghond vir ’n streek dien. Ek glo interne ouditering is ’n praktyk wat geweldig baie in bestuur kan help, nie net om bedrog te voorkom nie, maar ook om dienslewering te verbeter. In dié geval is dit belangrik dat opgeleide, gekwalifiseerde persone volgens die “fit for purpose”-beginsel aangestel word.

Politieke mag is verantwoordelik vir baie probleme. As twee partye byna ewe veel raadslede het, dan het klein partytjies die mag om beheer van een kant na die ander te swaai. Op dié manier word snaakse transaksies gedoen wat dienslewering benadeel en nie tot voordeel van die stelsel is nie. Daar moet in sulke gevalle gekyk word na ’n stelsel om hierdie probleem aan te pak. ’n Groot probleem op derde vlak-regering is ongegronde mandate. Indien, in die lewering van ’n diens, die verantwoordelikheid daarvan aan ’n bepaalde sfeer gegee word, moet die finansiering daarvan ook voorsien word. Elkeen se verantwoordelikheid en pligte moet duidelik omskryf word.

Die druk op plaaslike regering word te hoog, en hul finansiering word onmoontlik. Belasting styg, en dit word onmoontlik vir pensionarisse om hul belastingverpligtinge na te kom. Plaaslike regering is die hart van ons lewenswyse, en ons moet met sorg daarna omsien. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[I must congratulate the hon Minister on his idea of a turnaround strategy and the notion of audit reports without qualifications. Getting it right is going to require considerable responsibility and discipline. Where to start? What is the problem? Who are the culprits? Some municipalities manage to provide excellent service. The residents are happy; the economy is growing in these areas; meanwhile there are areas where very poor or no service delivery is provided. The entire infrastructure is disintegrating in these areas; residents are protesting and causing a great deal of damage and destruction due to mass demonstrations.

It is noteworthy that where competent council members and capable public servants are in charge, service is also of a high standard. There are many municipalities under administration, in terms of section 131 of the Constitution. We visited several of these municipalities, and you cannot believe that such a chaotic situation could arise. In most cases those concerned are struggling to distinguish between political action and responsibility, and government’s obligations. This is at the root of the problem with the majority of councils that are under administration. Councillors, and especially public servants, should not be rewarded with high-ranking positions because they are fine political allies. It is the public’s money. We visited areas where the mayor and the Speaker each has a group that is loyal to them, and each group has a part of the bureaucracy who slavishly does everything they ask for, all for personal gain.

There is a town in the Southern Cape where the public servants hold higher- ranking positions in the party structures than the councillors. Political parties should manage their councillors, for them to provide leadership to the public servants. Legislation should be provided to regulate the conduct of councillors. For example, a councillor is suspended by the council and the provincial Minister owing to accusations of fraud, but he again makes himself available as a candidate for office, and is again elected. How much did this whole episode cost? Incidents like these make a mockery of the current legislation.

In the Eden District Municipality the mayor at that time instituted legal proceedings against the council. He did not support the appointment of the municipal manager. He lost the case with costs. The DA coalition removed him from office but he returned after two years, and, together with his ANC comrades, wrote off the money owed. The costs were R100 000.

Section 56 appointments are a huge problem. A person is accused of or charged with an offence, and when he realises that he is going to be found guilty, he resigns and moves on. He absolves himself by stating that he has problems with the mayor or council, because they are claiming that he is a member of another political party. These people should be prosecuted when they are charged, and found guilty or innocent. There should then also be a register where all their offences are recorded. Such a register should be established.

Hon Minister, you should set the example here, and I cannot justify the appointment of Mr George Seitisho. He spent municipal funds on himself. He did in fact pay it back, but are there not other cases pending against him? I must respond to this as well: Minister, your attack on the Western Cape and Cape Town, I think, was without foundation. I am upset because I have visited many municipalities across the country where the conditions are appalling. If we are going to politicise this issue, we are going to have problems.

Just recently, two section 56 appointments were made in Oudtshoorn. No proof of wrongdoing is available in this instance, but it appears that a long list of charges has been given the slip.

The accounting system of municipalities is very complicated, and most councils struggle to get a clean audit. Internal audits and audit committees are abused, and are not serving their purpose at all. Independent internal audits should be done and reported to the province or an independent body, which cannot be manipulated by the mayor or the municipal manager. Independent audit committees can serve as watchdogs in a region. I believe that internal auditing is a practice that can greatly assist with regard to management, not just to prevent corruption, but also to improve service delivery. For this reason it is important that trained, qualified people are appointed in accordance with the “fit for purpose” principle.

Political power is responsible for many problems. Where two parties have more or less the same number of councillors, the smaller parties have the power to sway control from the one party to the other. In this case questionable deals are made that are detrimental to service delivery and not advantageous for the system. In such cases a system has to be devised to address this problem. A serious problem at the level of the third sphere of government is unfounded mandates. If, with regard to the delivery of service, the responsibility thereof is given to a particular sphere, the funding for it should also be provided. Everyone’s responsibility and obligations should be clearly defined.

The pressure on local government is becoming too much to bear, and its funding is becoming impossible. Rates are increasing and it is becoming impossible for pensioners to meet their obligations as ratepayers. Local government is central to our way of life and we should pay careful attention to it. [Applause.]]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms N W Magadla): Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP, hon Minister Shiceka and Deputy Minister, hon MECs present, hon members of the House, distinguished guests, it is an honour for me to participate in the 2010 policy and Budget Vote debate of the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. I’m participating in this debate because issues of local government and traditional affairs are very close to my heart. I have been involved in local government for many years as a councillor. This was informed by my passion to support local government because it is at the centre of service delivery.

I want to start by saying that the ANC, as a ruling party, cares for the people and it has achieved much in addressing the challenges that face local government in our country. This can be attested to through the commitment and dedication of our President, hon Jacob Zuma, when he changed the former Ministry of provincial and local government to the Ministry of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs because of the need to accelerate service delivery and for better co-ordination and coherence between the three spheres of government.

As we debate in this august House, we must remember that the NCOP stands at the peak of the intergovernmental relations system by bringing together all three spheres of government in areas of policy deliberation and legislation. As such, the NCOP has a crucial role to play in ensuring that the system of co-operative governance works effectively in improving the lives of our people. This is due to the fact that the concept of co- operative governance within our system of government — the national, provincial and local spheres — provides an excellent example of the development of democracy that is founded on the principle of the participation of the people.

Minister, we acknowledge the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs under your competent and able leadership for developing workable strategies that address the current capacity challenges in local government. These capacity challenges represent a major constraint towards the implementation of the Constitution and the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act. The shortage of skills, particularly in the financial, technical and administrative areas, compromises the ability to change the approach to development and effective and efficient delivery of services in local government.

In pursuit of the principle of working together, we commend the ANC for acknowledging the findings of the report on the state of local government. Amongst other things, the report indicates that the systems in many municipalities are characterised by critical problems and challenges which include dysfunctional councils – as also mentioned by the MEC who spoke before me – ineffective professional administration, weak and absent mechanisms for local democracy, and weak municipal performance management.

In addressing these challenges of local government, we have learnt with enthusiasm that the local government turnaround strategy, LGTAS, which is a product of the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, is aimed at counteracting those forces that are undermining our local government system. It is, therefore, in the interests of our country that local government is transformed and capacitated to play a developmental role in contributing towards nation-building.

The Select Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs is playing a greater oversight role over the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. This is equal to heeding the call of President Zuma of asserting the Fourth Parliament as an activist Parliament. Oversight and accountability are the core functions of Parliament and its committees. As a result, the constitutional mandate of the Select Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs is to ensure that the department delivers on its mandate and strategic objectives.

During the programme of “Taking Parliament to the People” in the Greater Sekhukhune region in Limpopo in March this year, Minister Shiceka raised the following key issues. One, the NCOP should support the Department of Co- operative Governance and Traditional Affairs in its efforts to address the severe backlogs in the delivery of services. This includes support for legislation, as well as the national implementation of the LGTAS.

Two, the NCOP should support efforts to professionalise local government, and only people appropriately qualified and with the requisite skills and occupational experience should be employed. Lastly, the NCOP should continue to assist communities to expose corruption by providing them with a platform to provide information in this regard. All the issues that the Minister raised during the programme of “Taking Parliament to the People” are relevant in strengthening the capacity of local government. These will be considered by the House.

We are indeed honoured in this House to hear that a new department of traditional affairs has been established by the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. This new department is expected to function by July this year. This is a great achievement for the traditional leadership. This new department of traditional affairs should address all the challenges that face the traditional leadership by assisting them to participate in the deliberations of local government in pursuit of advancing the principle of co-operative governance.

Following the transformation of the institution of traditional affairs and its structures, we appeal that the 2010-11 financial year must be dedicated to ensuring that the emerging transformed structures of traditional leadership are empowered to play a role in governance and development. This will be in line with priority number 4 of the strategic priorities of the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs of improving the developmental capability of the institution of traditional leadership.

We are raising this matter because the traditional leadership plays a central role in rural development and community development. We further call upon the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs to assist amakhosi to be involved in the planning process of integrated development plans, IDPs, in the municipalities.

Thina ke Mphathiswa sisuka emakhaya, iinkosi siyazazi ziyasebenza kakhulu. [Minister, we are from the villages and we know for a fact that traditional leaders are working very hard.]

In conclusion, in a quest to defend the gains of the national democratic revolution of building …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Magadla, can you please hold on.

Mr Z MLENZANA: Chairperson …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Mlenzana, I’ve already notified the speaker that her time …

Mr Z MLENZANA: No, it’s not about time.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Okay, what is it?

Mr Z MLENZANA: I wanted to check if she is ready to take my question.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Magadla, are you in a position to take a question?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms N W Magadla): Not now. [Laughter.] The ANC welcomes and supports the Budget Vote of the department. I thank you, Chair. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chairperson, hon Minister, MECs and members of the House, service delivery protests, as you know so well, have persisted for much of the past year. In fact, the first three months of this year have seen an escalation of protests. According to experts, this is the highest number of protests for any three-month period since 1994. Moreover, to some of us, the protests seem to be more violent than in the past.

Mr Bekker, we need to understand these protests much better, and not dismiss them as chaos. Why are these protests taking place? Who are the key participants? In which municipalities and in which specific wards are these protests taking place, and why? Are there patterns to the protests? If so, what are they? Why are certain protests violent? What do the protests tell us about the model of local government? What do they reveal about the co- operative governance system we have at present? How do we respond to the protests? How do we ensure that they are reduced over time? Of course, there are more questions that we could ask too.

This input offers a contribution to addressing some of these questions. It is certainly not a comprehensive or adequate offer. It is meant to encourage debate and, even more importantly, appropriate action. One thing is clear: There are no easy answers to the questions just raised. There are complex and varying reasons for the protests. The protests have structural, systemic, political, economic, governance, psychological, emotional and other dimensions.

If we are to be effective in responding to the protests, we need to understand all the dimensions of the protests. This is not to say that we must be intellectual more than is necessary or have endless debates about them. We need to arrive at a practical understanding of these protests, and we need action to address them.

Most of the protests are about service delivery issues, but - as most of us know - are not just about that. Many of the protests have been taking place in better-performing wards and municipalities where there has, in fact, been significant service delivery. The protests are also about a range of other municipal issues, including maladministration, nepotism, fraud, corruption and the failure of councillors and administrators to listen to residents.

However, it is the rage of sections of the protestors and the extent of the violence and destruction they wreak that is striking. It reflects a far more fundamental alienation of people from our democracy. It suggests an acute sense of marginalisation and social exclusion. Many of the protestors come across as outsiders, that is those who feel that they have not got what is due to them, and will never ever do so; while others, not so long ago and not that different from them, have got something and have became insiders, as it were.

There are also others who are different and are outsiders, but are now insiders who are blocking the way for others to become insiders – the Somalis, Congolese, Pakistanis, Zimbabweans, and the like. The outpouring of xenophobic rage has to be partly understood in that context. In other words, it is easy for us, privileged and intellectuals as we might be, to look upon those people who do what they did to foreigners with disdain. But there is a structural underpinning for it. You and I would do the same thing if we didn’t have jobs and had to pay the service delivery charges we have to pay. That is the point we are seeking to make.

It is anger, frustration and hopelessness that fuels some of the protests. In their case, burning clinics, libraries – as Ms Dube, the MEC from KZN told me – and social development offices, as well as other violent behaviour, constitute acts of both destruction and self-destruction. It may well be that some of them have passed their threshold, and their sense of persistent exclusion since 1994 is so entrenched that even significantly improving their material conditions is not going to easily reintegrate them into society.

For many of them, their sense of social exclusion has served to reinforce their brutalisation and dehumanisation under apartheid. For them, in other words, things were very bad under apartheid and have just not got better enough under democracy. They are, I think, going to constantly pose a challenge to our democracy, and we will have to come to terms with this.

For others, the violent behaviour constitutes acts of affirmation. It is seen as legitimate radical protest against a state that refuses to respond to their basic needs and as an important means of achieving these. After all, in the struggle against apartheid, such means were also used, even by some of us here.

But this is a democracy. Protests are a legitimate part of a democracy and can serve to enhance its quality, but violence isn’t. Of course, we condemn the violence. However, doing so is not going to end it. We need to better understand the violence to more effectively respond to it. Of course, municipal councillors and officials must take their fair share of blame for the protests. However, to blame them fully for everything would be simplistic. Many of the protestors are alienated from the state as a whole, not just local government. They are alienated not just from the state, but from society too.

Moreover, the protests are also about many other issues that neither fall within the competency of local government nor are they its core responsibilities. They are also about housing, jobs, health, crime and other issues. The protests are about the failures of service delivery of all the three spheres of government, even if it’s municipalities that are being targeted. Municipalities, after all, are easy targets. They are the immediate sphere of government to the people and are experienced most directly by them. It’s not because — let me stress again — municipalities are not significantly to blame, of course.

The impact of the global recession on our country and the loss of some one million jobs over the past year have worsened an already bad unemployment situation. The dramatic increases in the cost of living with the recession have further fuelled the protests. In some municipalities, especially the larger urban ones, infrastructure and resources have been considerably strained too by the migration of people into areas that simply cannot cope.

I think we must also take into account that — the Minister also, once or twice, raised this with me very instructively — maybe we need to ask whether the post - 1994 state has, with all the social welfarism we have inculcated and internalised within people, not created a culture of dependency. Couldn’t the post - 1994 state have made people think that to get what you want is to protest and you will get it, rather than taking responsibility for issues around service delivery, engaging in ward committees, school governing bodies and community police forums, and so on.

We tried to stress that aspects of the protests are beyond the control of municipalities. What they do is to reflect, ultimately, that it is the system of co-operative governance as a whole that is failing, not just local government.

Our department has put together some statistics based on what experts have said and what we have observed. From 2004 to 2010, 27% of the service delivery protests have taken place in Gauteng, 14% in North West, 12% in the Western Cape and Mpumalanga, 11% in the Free State, 10% in the Eastern Cape, 4% in Limpopo, and 3% in the Northern Cape. We note that about 45% of them have taken place in the metros and at least 34% in informal settlements.

Most of all, the protests reveal the failure of local democracy. Most of the people who take part in protests do so because they do not have adequate access to councillors, council officials, ward committees and other municipal structures. Clearly, the ward committee system is failing. Community development workers, CDWs, who are meant to connect residents with government departments, are not being effective either. Presumably, the school governing bodies, the community police forums and other statutory bodies are not playing their roles either.

Our Ministry has responded swiftly to the protests. As you know, our Minister has actively intervened. He will tell you that, in a significant number of cases, residents have protested only after having failed to get the attention of municipalities, provincial and national government departments through exchanges of public representatives, letters, memoranda, petitions, and the like. There is certainly a marked absence of communication between councillors and residents.

Despite significant advances, we must accept that there is inadequate delivery of basic services such as water, electricity, sanitation, sewerage, refuse removal, and the like. Increases in service fees, as I have noted earlier, have fuelled protests.

Sometimes protests take place because of service delivery. What will happen, of course, is that, if we deliver to one side of the informal settlement, we fuel protests on the other side to which we don’t deliver. Residents from the latter side of the informal settlement will ask why we deliver to others and not to them. They’ll argue that they are being marginalised because when they travel by bus or taxi they see that there is development taking place on the other side, but it is not coming to their area of the informal settlement.

So we must admit that there are complex reasons for the protests. Sometimes protests are spurred by decisions to move people living in informal settlements. People prefer to stay where they are because of proximity to workplaces or access to transport. There are shack lords with tenants renting shacks on their sites. These shack lords don’t want to move because they will lose their businesses. In some cases, the shack lords do want to move, but their tenants will lose out so they, too, take part in the protests. People also refuse to move out because they feel they have not been consulted adequately.

Many municipalities, as we all know, are not governed effectively. Furthermore, the political divisions that tear municipalities apart cause protestors to also demand bluntly that the councillor, the mayor, or the Speaker must be removed, which is not something you can easily do. There are also internal power struggles within the majority party, as well as in all parties that run municipalities.

There are people who are, understandably, positioning themselves for 2011 and so they start to demonise and undermine councillors. There are people who look at 2010. The Minister and myself — but the Minister, especially — must be blamed for this because these are tactics that we have inculcated through the union movement, and now they are being used creatively against us. The year 2010 is around and you have more bargaining power. We must raise all these issues. [Interjections.] Dennis Bloem, you might want to forget your past, but you were very much part of those structures. [Laughter.]

So, what do we do about all of these? Well, there are many things that we can do. In the first instance, all three spheres of government need to work together to address the service delivery protests; not just municipalities, though they are primarily responsible. Secondly, we need to radically and effectively implement the local government turnaround strategy, LGTAS, that the Minister has spoken about. It’s precisely because of the service delivery protests that we need the LGTAS. The more we implement the LGTAS, the more we reduce protests. Very crucially, comrades, we need to bring the leaders of these protests into the structures of the LGTAS and municipal- specific plans in the municipalities.

Thirdly, we need to anticipate these service delivery protests. My question to the CDWs, councillors, MPs, MPLs, and all of us is: Why are we not aware when these protests are going to take place whereas there are so many of us who work as public representatives?

Fourthly, we need to strengthen the ward committees, CDWs and other structures of community participation. Fifthly, on Wednesday we are going to present to Cabinet - the Minister will tell you - a structure which will have all the three spheres of government working together and responding rapidly to service delivery protests. The aim here, however, is not to supplant municipalities, but to empower them. We cannot say we cannot intervene when service delivery protests take place. In other words, we cannot be overwhelmed by issues of powers and functions because we are a system of co-operative governance.

Sixthly, as you well know — we said it to you last year and the Minister has said it again — we want to say that we are reviewing the powers and functions of the local government. Local government will remain a sphere and we will remain a co-operative governance system, but the nature of the distribution of powers and functions has to change. Seventhly, Salga has a crucial role to play.

Eighthly, you, as the NCOP, are more on the ground than us in the National Assembly. You, too, can play a crucial role, and we would like to congratulate you on your visits. We would like you to monitor the implementation of the LGTAS. In the 30 seconds left, we want to say that we are not going to eliminate service delivery protests, but the violence that goes with it. Service delivery protests are important. They are an endemic part of a democracy, as well as an important barometer of progress. They are fine; they must exist. The more we establish ward committees, the more we will reduce them. The more CDWs operate, the more we will reduce them.

In short, we are saying that all of us are complicit in these service delivery protests. Let us not just point at councillors. Finally, the Minister said you should memorise the LGTAS. I agree with him, but you should not memorise like the little boy did in the following short story.

There was a little schoolboy who didn’t understand the singular helping verb and plurals correctly. He kept on saying: “I is going home.” His teacher used to get upset with him and say: “No, no, I am going home.” Eventually, the teacher got fed up and said to the boy: “You are to remain in class! You are detained, and I want you to write ‘I am going home’ a thousand times!” Of course, the boy complied. About 45 minutes later, everybody was gone. The teacher went to the staff room in order to smoke or engage with the woman teachers. That’s needless to say; you know how it is.

In the meantime, the little boy is waiting and getting fed up. It’s an hour later and he is done writing “I am going home” a thousand times. He writes on the board: “Dear teacher, I have written ‘I am going home’ a thousand times; now I is going home.” [Laughter.] [Applause.]

Mr D V BLOEM: Deputy Chairperson, it’s very difficult to speak after a central committee member of the SACP. [Laughter.] It’s very difficult. Deputy Minister, let me tell you that I can never forget where I come from. It is my history and nobody … [Interjections.] I won’t come home to the SACP; but to the ANC, yes. [Applause.]

Our country is full of good and hardworking people who deserve a government that is truly accountable and committed to serving them, and does not tolerate corruption and personal greed. During our visit, a few weeks ago, to Limpopo through the programme of “Taking Parliament to the People”, I saw poverty and hardship all over the faces of the people in that area. It is very disturbing to see more and more municipalities being put under section 139.

On Wednesday, in Odendaalsrus in the Free State, thousands of residents took to the streets. Why did they march? You see, the communist, the Deputy Minister, has already spelled out why these people engage in marches. They are saying: “We voted for the ruling party because we were promised a better life”. They are saying: “We did not vote so that the lives of a privileged few should change”. These privileged few are the mayors, councillors and their families.

Furthermore, they are saying that they did not vote to enable the premier and his cabinet to buy a fleet of luxury cars for themselves that costs the taxpayers more than R10 million. [Applause.] The people are saying that they do not have clean water to drink; they are drinking stinking water. They are saying that their streets are rivers of raw sewage; their roads are in a mess, from bad to worse; they were promised jobs, instead more people are losing their jobs; they were promised that corruption would be rooted out, instead looting is the order of the day; and lastly, they are saying some councillors and officials are competing against each other to see who can steal better than the other. It is a sad state of affairs. Our warning to the ruling party is that it should never take people for granted because they will turn against you.

As Cope, we don’t want to stand here and only point fingers or throw stones. We also want to offer solutions to these problems because they affect all of us. Cope is saying that councillors are public representatives elected by the public. Therefore, they must account to the residents who elected them, and not to political parties. I agree fully with the Minister that we must never politicise local government. Local government belongs to the people. The mayor must be directly elected by the community and be accountable to that community. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Mong T M H MOFOKENG: Modulasetulo, Letona le kgabane, Motlatsaletona, maloko a hlomphehang le baemedi ho tswa diprofensing. Ke monyetla ho nna ho nka karolo ho tekweng ha ditekanyetso tsena tsa batho ba rona. Diphehisanong tse fetileng, mme ho hlakile hore ho tla be ho fele ho ntse ho le tjena, maloko a bohanyetsi, haholoholo DA, e bontsha hore nkwe e shwa le mebala. Maemo ana a nnetefatsa polelo e reng ‘morabe ha o nkgwe ka nko e se qoba la kwae’.

Maemo ana a soto ao re phelang kahara oona, a etsang ekare naha ya rona ke naha tse pedi tse fapaneng empa e le naha e le nngwe moo o tlang ho fumana e nngwe e ruileng e tswetse pele mme e nngwe e futsanehileng, e aparetswe ke mathata empa re le naha e le nngwe, a tlamehile ho fetoha.

Dibakeng moo ho dulang ba basweu di tswetse pele mme moo ho dulang merabe e meng, mosebetsi o tlamehileng ho etswa ke o moholo. Batho ba batsho bao re leng mahlatsipa a kgethollo re llela diphetoho le ditshebeletso tse ntle. Ha e le batho ba ileng ba latswa moro wa kgethollo le kgatello, ba nyefola mekutu e etswang ke mmuso wa ANC wa ho tlisa bophelo bo botle bakeng sa bohle. Bohloko ba seta bo utlwa ke monga sona. Batho ba bangata ba kgethileng ANC ho etella naha ena pele ba utlwisisa hore maano a ANC a tla thusa ho tlisa bophelo bo botle.

Ditekanyetso tsena di tlamehile ho thusa mebuso ya lehae jwalo kaha e le haufinyana le batho ba rona, hore e kgone ho nehelana ka ditshebeletso ka potlako ho batho bohle. Metseng ya rona moo ho ntseng ho e na le matlwana a dinkgo tse sa sebediseng metsi, di tlamehile ho fediswa mme ho rutwe haholoholo mmasepala wa Motse Kapa hore matlwana a ahuwa jwang. Hona ho bontsha hore ba ntse ba sa kgathalle batho ba rona mme ba ikemiseditse ho ba tlontlolla ka ho ba ahela matlwana a sa kwalehang. Ntho eo ba ke keng ba e etsa ha ba sa ahele batho ba seng batsho. Bommasepala ha ba matlafatswe hore ba kgone ho neha batho motlakase le metsi a hlwekileng hore batho ba se nwe metsi a sa hlwekang le diphoofolo.

Ditekanyetso tsena di tlamehile ho thusa bommasepala ho hira batho ba nang le tsebo e ntle ya tsamaiso, haholoholo ho laola ditjhelete ka tsela e nang le boikarabelo.

Tlaleho ya Mohlahlobi e Moholo wa Dibuka tsa Ditjhelete e hlalosa hore ho na le bofokodi bo boholo ho bommasepala mabapi le tshebediso ya ditjhelete. Ditekanyetso tsena di tlamehile ho arabela le ho meputso ya makhanselara eo ba tletlebang hore e menyenyane mme e etsa hore ba bang ba iphumane ba etsa kgwebo e tlisang kgohlano ya ditabtabelo mesebetsing ya bona. Boholo ba bommasepala ha bo na bokgoni ba ho iketsetsa tjhelete ya bona mme ba itshetlehile nyehelong ya mmuso o bohareng. Ditekanyetso tsena ha di thuse meruo moo makgotla a motse a laolang teng.

Ho a ngongorehisa ho fumana hore ho bile le ho kena dipakeng ho bommasepala ba bangatanyana, Kapa Botjhabela, KwaZulu-Natal, Foreisetata, Leboea Bophirima le Mpumalanga. Molaotheo o neha mmuso wa porofense matla a ho kena dipakeng ebang mmasepala o hloleha ho phethahatsa boikarabelo ba oona ba ho fana ka ditshebeletso, ho se na botsitso mme mmasepala o phutlame. Ho ya ka ditlaleho tse tswang moo ho nang le ho kena dipakeng teng, a mang a mathata a bakwa ke dikgohlano tse teng kahare ho makhanselara a ANC.

Re bua nnete ho ya kamoo e leng kateng hobane ANC haesale e lwanela nnete mme re na le tshepo ya hore boetapele ba ANC bo a utlwisisa hore ntwa ke ya madulammoho mme bona le bokgoni ba hore bo tla kgalema le ho tataisa maloko ao a ANC hore ke basebeletsi ba batho mme ntwa tseo di sitisa phano ya ditshebeletso. Bao ba lakatsang hore dintwa tsena di tla arohanya ANC, ba lebale hobane ke toro feela ntho eno e ho bona.

Tlaleho tse ding di supa hore ho utswitswe ditjhelete tsa mmuso mme ho a tsebahala hore ke bo mang. ANC e kgahlanong le bobodu le manyofonyofo mme batho bao ba ikarabellang ho nyameleng ha ditjhelete, ha ba kwallwe ke sepolesa mme ba iswe makgotleng a dinyewe mme haeba ba le molato ba kwallwe ditjhankaneng. Ha ho moo ANC e kopanang le manyofonyofo teng. Ba bang ba baetapele ba ANC kahare ha makala, ke basebeletsi ba mmasepala mme ba sebedisa matla a bona ho laela makhanselara le ho hlokisa bommasepala botsitso. Re na le tshepo ya hore baetapele ba ANC ba tla fana ka tharollo le moo hobane kutlwisiso ke hore maloko a ANC hohle moo a fuweng boikarabelo, mosebetsi wa bona ke ho phethahatsa maano a ANC feela.

Tsela eo ho ajwang dithendara e lokela ho lekolwa hore e se qabanye basebeletsi ba mmasepala le karolo e bapalwang ke borakgwebo. Re ipiletsa hore borakgwebo ba se ke ba reka makhanselara le basebeletsi ba bommasepala ka tjotjo hore ba ba nehe mesebetsi. Ditekanyetso tsena di tlamehile ho thusa bommasepala ho fana ka thutpello le kwetliso e nepahetseng ho Basebetsi ba Ntshetsopele ba Setjhaba – CDW le baetapele ba setso ho hlakisa boikarabelo ba bona hore ho qojwe dikgohlano.

Aforika Borwa ke naha e le nngwe mme hoo ho tlamehile ho bonahala kahohlehohle. ANC e nkile mmuso moo ditshebeletso di neng di ajwa ho ya ka merabe. Diphenshene tsa maqheku di ne di sa lekane, thuto e sa lekane, mosebetsi o sa fuwe batho ho ya ka bokgoni empa ho ya ka mmala wa letlalo. E ne e le tlolo ya molao ho nyala ka merabe ho ya ka Mixed Marriage Act. Group Areas Act e ne dulisa batho ba batsho hole le ba basweu mme Bantustan di ne di etseditswe ho beha batho ho ya ka merabe ho fapana. Ho ne ho na le dibaka moo ho neng ho dula baVenda, maXhosa, Basotho, maZulu, Batswana, Bammala le maIndia.

Bathei ba ANC, le pele ho 1912, ba tsebile bohlokwa ba batho ho dula mmoho ka kgotso le ka kutlwano. Ditekanyetso tsena, ha di abele bommasepala tjhelete ya ho ntshetsa pele leano la mmuso le amohetsweng ka 2004 la ‘Breaking new ground’ leo maikemisetso a lona e neng e le ho theha metse moo batho ba tlang ho dula ho sa shejwe merabe hobane Afrika Borwa ke naha ya rona bohle, ba batsho le ba basweu.

Ho na le diporojeke tse atlehileng tse ileng tsa thehwa moo metse ena e ileng ya lekwa teng. Projeke ya Bendo ya Limpopo, N2 Gateway, Fairland, Cosmo City, Extend 36, Nellmapius mane Tshwane, Olievenhoutbosch, Thorntree View, Chief Albert Luthuli extention, Doornkop Soweto, Middelvlei, Mogale le Alexander Township.

Tsena ke dibaka moo maikemisetso a ANC a ho aha metse e kopaneng e senang kgethollo ya merabe e ileng ya atleha teng mme ken aha e le nngwe e atlehileng mme re tshepa hore ho se lekalekane hona, ANC e tla ho lwantsha e ho hlole pusong ya yona. Re tshehetsa ditekanyetso tsena. Ke a leboha Modulasetulo. [Mahofi.] (Translation of Sesotho speech follows.)

[Mr T M H MOFOKENG: Chairperson, hon Minister, Deputy Minister, distinguished guests and representatives from the provinces, it is an honour for me to participate in this budget debate for our people. In the previous debates, and it is quite clear that this will always be the case, members of the opposition, especially the DA, have proven that a leopard never changes its spots. This situation reaffirms the notion that you can never tell about the organisation when you are not a member until such time you join it.

The sad state of affairs prevailing in our country which creates the impression that our country is two different countries and yet is a single country, where you find that one section is rich and the other is poor and beset with problems even though we are one nation, must change.

In areas where white people live there is progress whereas in areas where other races live there is still a lot to be done. As black people who were victims of apartheid we are still complaining about change and proper service delivery. As for those who benefited from the gravy train of discrimination and oppression, they criticise the efforts being made by the ANC to bring about a better life for all. Walk a mile in a man’s shoe. The many people who chose the ANC to lead this country understand that the ANC’s policies will help to bring about a better life.

This budget must help municipalities, as they are the ones that work closely with our people, so that they can be able to provide services more quickly to all the people. In those areas where the bucket system is still being used, it must be stopped and especially the Cape Town municipality must be taught how to build toilets. This shows that they do not care about our people and that their aim is to denigrate them by building open public toilets for them, something that they would not dare do if they were not building for black people. Municipalities must be capacitated in order to be able to provide people with electricity and clean water so that people do not drink the same filthy water as animals.

This budget must be able to help municipalities to employ individuals who have good experience in administration, especially in responsible financial management.

The Auditor-General’s report indicates that there is a huge problem of incompetence and poor financial management on the part of municipalities. This budget must also address the issue of councillors’ salaries which they complain are too low, which causes some of them to get involved in other businesses that eventually lead to a conflict of interest with their work. Most of the municipalities do not have the ability to be financially self- sufficient and are dependent on provincial government. This budget must help to boost municipal economies.

It is rather worrying to see that there have been administrative interventions in many municipalities such as in the Western Cape, KwaZulu- Natal, Free State, Eastern Cape and Mpumalanga. The Constitution gives the provincial government the authority to intervene if the municipality is unable to fulfil its responsibilities of service delivery, as well as when there is no stability and the municipality has collapsed. According to reports emanating from areas where there have been interventions, some of the problems are as a result of feuding among ANC councillors.

We are telling the truth like it is because the ANC has always been fighting for the truth. We hope that the ANC leadership understands that “sibling rivalry” is a reality and will therefore have the ability to call to order and give guidance to its members, and thus remind them that they are servants of the people, and therefore such conflicts hinder the provision of services. Those who wish that these conflicts will divide the ANC must forget about it because it is just a dream that will never come to pass.

Some reports allege that there has been siphoning of government funds and it is known who the culprits are. The ANC is against corruption and those individuals responsible for the disappearance of government funds must be arrested and tried in the courts and, if found guilty, they must be locked up in jail. Some of the members of the ANC in the branches are municipal employees who use their authority to control councillors and cause instability in the municipalities. We also hope that the leaders of the ANC will provide a solution to this because the understanding is that anywhere members of the ANC have been deployed, their main purpose is only to implement the policies of the ANC.

The manner in which tenders are allocated should be reviewed so that it does not cause conflict among municipal employees and with regard to the role played by business. We call on businesspeople not to bribe municipal employees in order for them to give them tenders. This budget must help municipalities in providing education and training to community development workers, CDW, as well as traditional leaders to clearly define their roles so as to avoid conflict.

South Africa is one country and that must be obvious in every way possible. The ANC came into power when services were provided according to race. Pensions for the aged were not equal, education was not equal, employment was not obtained on the basis of one’s ability but by the colour of one’s skin. It was illegal to marry across the colour line according to the Mixed Marriages Act. The Group Areas Act stipulated that black people must live far away from white people and Bantustans were specifically designed to accommodate people according to different ethnic groupings. There were separate areas where the Tsonga, Basotho, amaXhosa, amaZulu, Batswana, coloureds and Indian people lived.

The founders of the ANC, even before 1912, knew the importance of a harmonious and peaceful co-existence among people. This budget must allocate municipalities funds in order to implement the government’s policy that was agreed to in 2004 of Breaking New Ground, whose main aim was to establish communities where people would live regardless of their ethnicity because South Africa is a land for all who live in it, blacks and whites.

There are some projects that were successful which were established where these communities were attempted. The Bendo Project in Limpopo, N2 Gateway, Fairland, Cosmo City, Extend 36, Nellmapius in Tshwane, Olievenhoutbosch, Thorntree View, Chief Albert Luthuli Extension, Doornkop Soweto, Middelvlei, Mogale and Alexandra Township are examples.

These are the areas where the ANC’s ideal to establish united communities free of discrimination was successful, and as a single nation we hope that the ANC during its tenure will tackle all the inequalities and it will succeed. We support this budget. I thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]]

Mr E VON BRANDIS (Western Cape): Hon Chairperson, I would like to ask the NCOP a question: What are we going to leave behind for our children? Will they have municipal infrastructure that gives them clean water, or that which will make them sick? Will we pass on the values of honesty, hard work and transparency; or will we set an example of selfish and corrupt behaviour?

We must think about these things because we are building or laying the foundation for our children. This foundation can allow them to fulfil their potential or prepare them for failure. I know that local government is closest to the people. We must get it right so that we can be proud of what we leave behind for our children.

Last year, we committed ourselves to a number of deliverables. I am pleased to report that all of them have been delivered. All municipalities complied with the property rates Act; we have exceeded our target for anticorruption training and support; 19 municipalities have improved performance management systems; our integrated development plan, IDP, learnership has been completed; the accountability of our community development workers has improved; our councillors have undergone leadership and code of conduct training; and municipal spending of capital budget has improved.

This is just the beginning. In the coming year we will build on our successes. We must look after our investments, roads, pipes, and sewerage plants which supply us with basic services. We must maintain what we have built in infrastructure and appoint schooled technical people in our municipalities. We are currently busy completing our master plan which will tell us what to build; how much it will cost; how many people must be trained to operate it; and how we will fund and implement it.

It will help us to build for our future and to build for our children. In addition to the master plan, the department will assist municipalities to develop a register of all their assets such as the roads, pipes and sewerage plants that I have mentioned. This register will include information on the age of a particular asset, and when it should be replaced.

We know that we can only maintain infrastructure if we have the right skills. So we will be doing an audit of all the technical skills in municipalities and, together with our partners in the Development Bank of Southern Africa, DBSA, and the Department of Water and Environmental Affairs, we will develop a long-term plan to build those skills in municipalities.

We must not only build new infrastructure, but we must also build people. I asked earlier whether or not our children will have clean water in the future. A more important question is: Will they have water in the future?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): House Chairperson, on a point of order: I want to check whether the member is a member of the executive or a member of the legislature.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms N W Magadla): It is written here that he is a member of the legislature.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Why is he promising so much when in actual fact he is supposed to do oversight over the executive? [Interjections.]

Mr E VON BRANDIS (Western Cape): The disaster management centre, in co- operation with provincial and National Treasury, organised an amount of R195 million for drought aid. A few weeks ago, we officially opened the Sedgefield Desalination Plant where 1,5 million litres of fresh water is harvested from seawater every day. More such desalination plants will be built shortly.

The key to managing disasters is to plan for them, identify the risks, address them, and be prepared. We will be helping disaster managers and integrated development planning managers in all municipalities to prepare disaster management plans as part of the IDPs between April and June. We will provide more intensive planning support to 12 municipalities throughout the year. We are also doing disaster planning for the 2010 Fifa World Cup. This event will put a huge stress on the Western Cape’s services such as water, electricity supply, and health and transport systems.

The provincial disaster management centre, PDMC, has, together with all municipalities and relevant stakeholders, identified the relevant risks and implemented plans to reduce them. We need to be ready for any disaster during the 2010 Fifa World Cup event.

I would also like to take this opportunity to thank all the people who spent long and hard hours fighting all the fires during the past summer season. We will co-ordinate the various training initiatives across the province, and we will publish regulations that will assist municipalities to streamline fire services. This will ensure that a more efficient and effective service is provided to all communities. We are doing these things because our children deserve to live in communities that are safe from disaster.

If we want to lay a solid foundation for our children, we must build strong and accountable municipalities. Therefore, we must ensure that our councillors and officials are accountable. One way of ensuring this is to have effective performance management systems in place.

Recently, the department visited every municipality to ask them about their main challenges. This was part of the national government’s turnaround process. We digested the information supplied by the municipalities and offered our support. We will also create a pool of experts who can be deployed to municipalities on very short notice.

Some municipalities are doing very well on most issues, but not all of them are. Remember, accountability is at the heart of good governance and service delivery. In the coming year, the department will assist municipalities to develop and implement effective communication strategies. It will continue to provide support and training on public participation.

During the past financial year, all 30 municipalities in the Western Cape handed in their IDPs, and 28 of those met all the demands. However, our people at the grass-roots level must see the changes brought about by the IDPs. Therefore, every municipality is asked to identify a poor ward to ensure that a ward-based plan is drawn up for them. This plan must identify specific changes in the community during the coming year. This approach must be rolled out to all other wards after the 2011 municipal elections.

During the past year, we have been very troubled by the behaviour of some of our councillors. Power has shifted frequently in some coalition councils. Councillors use this as an opportunity to make deals that benefit them personally and disadvantage the municipality. They get rid of competent municipal officials and appoint their own people. We can call this many things, namely nepotism, cronyism or cadre deployment; I call it wrong.

I would like to congratulate all those municipalities where this did not happen. You are setting a good example for our children. You are teaching them that they will succeed in life if they study and work hard. You are teaching them to succeed on the basis of merit, and not on the basis of being a friend of a politician.

Last year, we said that the way to combat fraud and corruption was to prevent it from happening in the first place. I’m proud to say that the department has succeeded in its targets in this respect. Good governance training was conducted at 10 municipalities. The department rolled out ethics management training in eight municipalities. We also provided the system to seven municipalities in the development of anticorruption strategy and implementation plans. Twenty-four of our 30 municipalities have received unqualified audits. I want to strengthen internal audit units together with provincial treasury because they can play such a vital role in preventing and detecting corrupt practices.

The national Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs will be asked to change legislation to ensure that internal audit units report directly to the audit committee in addition to reporting to municipal managers. Furthermore, the audit committee can report directly to the department if the work of the internal audit unit is being blocked within a municipality.

In the coming year, the department will conduct a fraud and ethics survey for 29 local and district municipalities. It will also conduct a two-day workshop with 11 municipalities to assist with the implementation of fraud prevention plans. In short, we will teach people how to spot fraud and corruption, and how to act on it quickly and effectively. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr A G MATILA: House Chairperson, Minister and Deputy Minister, MECs, members, ladies and gentlemen, we agree with the hon Minister as he has indicated the type of people that need to be employed at all administrative levels in government. However, we want the Minister to be careful that we don’t have people like Bobby Godsell.

I am saying this precisely because Bobby Godsell was at the helm of the troubled Eskom. However, because Bobby Godsell was white, he was not blamed at all. He is seen as a person who was doing a good job. He was the person who was paying Maroga those millions in bonuses. He did not tell us how much he was pocketing. If you check, you would see that all his money might not be invested here in South Africa, but in London.

Whilst you employ these good skills, I am not sure whether Bobby Godsell is good for this country. Therefore I urge the Minister to check on all those people too. What legacy does this NCOP want to leave behind? Definitely not people like Bobby Godsell; we don’t want to leave that here.

The second thing is that it is important that you work very fast with regard to the issue of land. The reality of the matter is that almost 40% of the Western Cape does not belong to South Africa. If you take note of the land close to the sea, you will realise that most of that land has been bought by foreigners. They are running very fast to make sure that the Western Cape belongs to England. You need to be very aware, Minister, that we are dealing with that situation.

The National Anti corruption Forum, NACF, in its 1999 conference report defined corruption as:

… any conduct or behaviour in relation to persons entrusted with responsibilities in public office which violates their duties as public officials and which is aimed at obtaining undue gratification of any kind for themselves or for others.

We understand that, despite logic dictating otherwise, corruption is still a challenge in local government. It works day in and day out to undermine the advances we made in building a better life for our people. Logic dictates that all of us, as part of a nation healing itself after years of inequality and repression, should automatically work actively to write off the wrongs of the past and build a nation which all of us can be proud of.

Unfortunately, practical experience informs us that this is not the case, particularly within government. There are pockets of individuals engaged in corrupt practices, which in turn erodes people’s confidence in our ability to serve them.

While most of us in the public sector are women and men of integrity who are driven by the honour to serve our people, there are those whose preoccupation is to enrich themselves at the expense of those who have nothing and basically rely on government for sustainability and wellbeing. One can describe the actions of these individuals as antiprogress and tantamount to treason. It is our collective obligation to obliterate corruption, especially at government level.

Local government has been under the spotlight in recent months due to a wave of protests which brought about clashes between protesting residents and law enforcement authorities. These protests have drawn attention from role-players such as government, commentators and civil society who, while recognising that communities are raising genuine issues, also condemn the violence accompanying the protests.

Corruption is not only hampering service delivery in the Public Service domain, but is also a weakness in our system to deal with the perpetrators. The recent community protests around service delivery issues could also be attributed to corruption. Resources intended for the public good are being diverted to individuals’ pockets so that the poor are deprived of desperately needed basic services. It is also theft of our taxes that we work so hard to pay in order to improve public service.

Through your local government turnaround strategy, LGTAS, ensure that all allegations of corruption, nepotism and maladministration are speedily dealt with, without fear or favour. The strategy should ensure that transgressors are dealt with in a transparent manner, and that those found guilty of corruption, nepotism or maladministration are held accountable.

Equally, the department should actively address the causal systematic and accountability problems in this sphere. It is clear, hon Minister, that a holistic and multifaceted approach must form the foundation of the turnaround strategy to resolve the situation.

You will recall that early this year and late last year, as the select committee, we visited several municipalities carrying out oversight functions in terms of section 139 of the Constitution. At the heart of most of these interventions are corruption, maladministration, fraud, and nepotism, which ultimately affect administration and, consequently, service delivery. As this House, we have a constitutional responsibility to ensure that municipalities maintain national standards or meet established minimum standards for rendering services.

We cannot abdicate this responsibility and let communities suffer at the hands of people who are otherwise more interested in issues unrelated to the wellbeing of the community. For that, we will not hesitate to intervene and cause the re-election of leaders who will put the interests of the community first.

Equally, the department has a responsibility to ensure that practical measures are taken to ensure that perpetrators are brought to book. In Nala Local Municipality, which is situated in Bothaville, for example, the former chief financial officer, CFO, was found guilty of misappropriation of funds. However, as the select committee, when we went to carry out oversight functions there, we found out that the same official had recently been appointed as the municipal manager of the Nala Local Municipality. Something should definitely be done about this. Those perpetrators robbing our municipalities need to … [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Ms N DUBE (KwaZulu-Natal): Hon Chairperson, Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP, national Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Deputy Minister, hon members of the NCOP and special delegates, hon members, the quality of our leadership is at present being severely tried and we attempt to govern the country at a time when our communities have spoken in no uncertain terms when they voted the ANC into government.

The wails of our people have rung out loud against the slow pace of service delivery. Indeed, much has been done in our country to usher in the system of democratic local government which seeks to serve and make the lives of our people better. It is on the basis of the above-mentioned considerations that, as the department of co-operative governance and traditional affairs in KwaZulu-Natal, we have formulated our work plan in the form of the 2010- 11 budget speech, upon which we will ensure our municipalities truly become vehicles of delivery of services.

On 14 April, we expressed our statement of ensuring action to the people of KwaZulu-Natal. We have also committed ourselves to assisting municipalities to accelerate the delivery of services. Our multipronged strategy programme will ensure the turnaround strategy for municipalities; ensure the effective and efficient delivery of services and the enhancement of traditional leadership institutions in development as part of fighting against poverty; eradicate fraud and corruption; ensure the achievement of financial viability for our municipalities; and enhance public participation in the affairs of local government and traditional leadership institutions.

These priorities are an indication of a serious change in our approach by way of ensuring delivery and implementation of service at the municipal space. These are the objectives which go in tandem with the national priorities as contained in the Medium-Term Strategic Framework, MTSF, of 2009 to 2014. Thus, the department of co-operative governance and traditional affairs has been positioned to perform strictly within these parameters. The department’s priorities, as set out in the plan, have been directly drawn from the national priorities which include, amongst others, the speeding up of economic growth and transformation of the economy to create decent work and sustainable livelihoods.

The success of our plan in terms of our budget hinges much on the turnaround processes, as well as on the way the government departments within the province of KwaZulu-Natal and the national departments change the way in which they plan and co-ordinate development initiatives which then get implemented in the communities through municipalities. To this extent, the province of KwaZulu-Natal has developed a plan which seeks to ensure that all its departments are co-ordinated in its effort in ensuring the delivery of services.

An example of this is that, as a province, we have taken each and every department and looked at how it integrates with others. For instance, we have identified in our discussion that for the department of education to be able to improve the matric results or the schools’ results, they need to ensure that there is proper infrastructure for those schools. They also need to ensure that there is proper sanitation and water for those children so that they are able to be in school, on time, and according to the required timetable.

The department of health has also identified that for our people to enjoy health care and hospital services, they need to ensure that the hospitals have electricity, water, sanitation, and all other services and infrastructure to improve the delivery of services to the communities. The same goes for the department of agriculture, forestry and fisheries and many other departments in our province. We have identified the weakest link.

On our turnaround strategy, the recommendations that we’ve seen coming from the state of municipalities report really made us focus to ask: “What do we do now since we know where we have gone wrong?” I wish to say that we are in full implementation mode of completing our hands-on approach of assisting our municipalities, together with their communities, to develop their plans.

Our “Operation Clean Audit” has been successfully launched. I’m happy to say that, since our audit, all the municipalities which last year received unclean audits have been called. We have had two dialogues so far. We have devised a turnaround strategy for those audit reports. All the municipalities that received adverse reports have been put under discretionary monitoring so as to make sure that we monitor them every three months to correct whatever problems they would have experienced in those disclaimers and unqualified opinions.

We are also providing a hands-on approach on issues of skills shortage. We now know that there is a problem in terms of the shortage of skills in municipalities. We have sat down and said that we cannot lament anymore, let us grow our own timber. For councillors, we are developing a framework of having mentors. Councillors who have been in council for a long time and have experience will mentor other councillors.

With regard to skills for officials, we are partners with the sector education and training authorities, Setas, to ensure that we take chartered accountants who have just graduated and place them in municipalities so that they can train. These chartered accountants will also be able to work with those municipalities for a certain period of time to ensure the transfer of skills and also to work in stabilising our skills in those municipalities.

With regard to issues of local economic development, the department of co- operative governance and traditional affairs has spent more than R3 million. We have also committed to projects which ensure that we have priority nodes or corridors that benefit the economic growth of our municipalities.

I’m happy to say to members that the latest fruit of our labour in this regard is the production of the Villard Blanc wine which has been part of our War on Poverty Programme. This wine has been developed with the iLembe District Municipality using a co-operative. We are happy to say that when we open our King Shaka Airport and our trade port comes into operation, this product will also be sold worldwide. This is all through the corridor development monies that we are spending to ensure that we grow the economic development of our local municipalities.

We have also been able to have more than 700 job opportunities in the areas of the corridors. We are happy to say that our agricultural processing initiatives and tourism hub as well as the sector projects are moving very well in terms of our local economic development nodes.

With regard to our massification programme, we have realised that in many municipalities there is no capacity to deliver, particularly water, electrification and sanitation. We have budgeted in our programme to ensure that in those areas where municipalities are not able to reach, we help through the massification programme.

Regarding the water purification plant, we are in discussion with the national department in order for us to access water certificates because we have a number of dams in KwaZulu-Natal where municipalities are not able to draw water to service those communities. The national Minister has responded very positively to this initiative. We will be moving to ensure that we put the water purification plant in place so that the people will eventually benefit and enjoy the delivery of those services as well.

We also have a small town rehabilitation programme. You will remember that there are a number of small towns that have really strived to exist since we have freeways and highways. They have become ghost towns and have not been able to attract development or investment. We have invested an amount of more than R55 million to ensure that we beautify these small towns and ensure that there is street lighting. We will also ensure that there is proper communication and police patrols in order for us to attract investment and put confidence back in those communities living in those small towns.

With regard to our municipality property rates, we have all our boards in place. We are happy to say that we are now exploring the second round of two extra boards for the areas of Msunduzi and eThekwini because of the backlog that has been experienced in those areas. We are now looking at the reviewing of the integrated development plans, IDPs, through ensuring that all our turnaround strategies find expression in them. The IDPs will also be part of the implementation of the budget as it will be passed by the municipalities.

With regard to the standing committees on public accounts, Scopas, I’m happy to say that are we not only talking about corruption, but about monies that need to be recovered whether officials have resigned in those municipalities or not. We have recovered more than R9 million so far.

On the role of traditional leadership, we are continuing to support our king in ensuring that institutions of traditional leadership are capacitated as centres of community development. Thank you, Chairperson. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr M H MOKGOBI: House Chairperson, our Minister and Deputy Minister, hon members of the House, all protocol observed. In debating the Budget Vote, we are affirming that the ruling party in this Parliament is fulfilling the objective of the Freedom Charter, namely that the people shall govern to make things happen where they live.

We are faced with the reality that continues to confront our local government systems. However, we feel proud of the fact that over 80% of the programmes of our municipalities are positive. We, however, have backlogs that, as government, we need to confront. And there is, indeed, a programme that cuts across all the spheres of government which seeks to confront these challenges. We have observed from reports of the departments that not everything is gloomy, but more positive in terms of service delivery. We would like to commend the steps taken by the Minister in this regard.

The House should not forget that our democracy is 16 years old. This democracy, since its inception, has been confronting political economic exclusion that was left to us by a racially fragmented legacy of colonialism of a special type. In this regard, we call upon every one in our nation — our farms, villages, townships, isolated farmsteads, towns, cities, and our metros — to make local government everybody’s business, as the Minister always echoes.

In that spirit, we would then strengthen this system to be progressive, efficient, effective, accountable and democratic. The select committee was indeed impressed when the report was tabled before it. Even at the level of protesting municipalities, the department does not leave any vacuum. The department immediately responds and engages because in this case communication is the weapon of engagement. Communication might not necessarily bring solutions on the spot, but it brings hope for the future.

The President has said that this is the year of action. How do we dramatise that action? We need to dramatise it by making sure that we don’t waste time through political quarrels, whether at national, provincial or local level. We need to utilise time by implementing the programme that we promised our people. The implementation of the programme includes, amongst other things, telling the people when things will happen, if they can’t happen now. That is important and that is what we mean by a society driven by the people.

We also base all that we are doing on the 10- and 15-year review, as well as the ANC’s door-to-door campaigns which informed the election manifesto of 2009. When the Fourth Parliament was put in place, the Ministry for Co- operative Governance and Traditional Affairs immediately launched a programme to assess how the state of municipalities in the country was in

1. That assessment revealed that some of the municipalities are dysfunctional and some of the ward committees are not working well.

Furthermore, the assessment revealed that there are political and administrative challenges; weak intergovernmental relations; and a serious lack of communication, notwithstanding that anything that is there or not there must be communicated. If communication wasn’t lacking, some of the protests could have been stopped one way or another. However, you can’t stop protests because they are part of the democratic element which the ANC introduced in this country, after 300 years of no democracy in our society.

This has baptised our Fourth Parliament during its inaugural processes. After that assessment, the Ministry called upon everyone who has the interests of local government at heart — everyone, from national, provincial and local government — to Beachwood on 21 and 22 October, where the assessment gave birth to what we call the local government turnaround strategy, LGTAS.

We would want to agree that the LGTAS built the framework that would change and is continuing to change the situation at local government level. We would want to call upon everyone that we need to learn and understand the turnaround strategy. However, we should not memorise it because we will need to apply it in different conditions. We must not memorise it like the little boy in the Deputy Minister’s story because, for example, one would be confronted with a problem in Musina and want to talk about solutions that were applied in an ocean-related problem in Cape Town, even though Musina has no ocean.

The other element that the LGTAS moots is how we make sure that the communities are, indeed, engaged in monitoring. That will only happen if ward committees are strengthened. We are happy because there is, in the turnaround strategy, an element of reviewing and funding of the very same ward committee in order to strengthen democracy. This will ensure that the democratic space is not abused by those who are nostalgic about the past. The people who are nostalgic about the past will still want to cling to their racially beneficial programme, and will always go to the communities to say the government is not delivering. Certainly, when the government is not delivering, there is always an answer. Therefore, the answer will be given to the people if there is an intersphere engagement.

The select committee made several oversight visits and we would like to emphasise some of the points so that the department should make a follow- up. In Mpumalanga, the select committee went to Mkhondo municipality, which is one of the municipalities that was protesting. We found that the people are highly charged and their major demand was a demand which confirms what the Deputy Minister said about some of the protests being legitimate and some complex to understand. Their major demand was the removal of the councillors. They also told us that if we don’t remove the councillors we are also not going back to Cape Town. You could understand that there is something deeper that we need to look into in our democracy.

However, the Minister responded quickly by visiting those municipalities and communities. As we are talking, the situation is stabilised. People are constitutionally and politically engaging on how to resolve that because the municipalities have been placed under section 139. We would like to commend the Minister. However, we did report on how the situation is, as we are speaking, in Mkhondo municipality.

Hon Matila gave an example of Nala Local Municipality, which we want to confirm. We also want to confirm that the LGTAS is working. There — we have been told by the MEC — the officials who are misusing public funds are facing the law. This simply means that the element of the LGTAS is indeed turning the situation around in the country, and we commend the Minister for those corrective measures.

Nokeng tsa Taemane in Gauteng has also been placed under section 139, and we would also like to commend the manner in which the MEC applied section

1. Because it was about finances he — I forgot whether it’s he or she — specifically crafted or created a specific financial recovery plan which is working miracles as we speak. The municipality is now getting back to normal. We would like to urge other municipalities to go and see how that specific financial recovery plan was implemented.

With regard to Limpopo, of course, everyone knows that there was a Moutse problem. If the department had not engaged with the people, we would have had a permanent problem. Currently, the people in Moutse in Limpopo have an understanding of how to take the process forward. That is what we call responsive and accountable government, something which needs to prevail in our government.

Recently, we met with the hon MEC from the Eastern Cape - I’m not sure whether he is still around. The Sundays River Valley Local Municipality has been placed under section 139, for the second time. The first instance was in 2006, and this is the second. When we assess the problem, we realise that it’s a political problem because the council could not meet for the whole year. What would you take out of that? In this regard, we were a bit firm, as a select committee. We told the MEC that he needs to improve and strengthen provincial monitoring.

In the Western Cape — where we are at present — we got a report from the MEC for local government in this province … [Interjections.] That one is a messenger, not an MEC. [Interjections.] The House is saying I must get two minutes more.

Let me conclude by alluding to a situation found in the Western Cape. The department confirmed this. I visited my relatives in Khayelitsha and when I wanted to relieve myself, they showed me a hole without walls. [Interjections.] I asked: “What is this thing?” The reply was: “This is a toilet that we have been given by our municipality.” I said to them: “The national government has a policy of free basic services, why is this municipality undermining that policy?” We would like the Ministry to further engage in these processes. Amen. [Applause.]

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: House Chairperson, we want to thank members for the robust debate that they have engaged in. I would also like to say that there is a marked difference in the quality of the debate that takes place here and the one which takes place in the National Assembly. [Applause.] By and large, people are focused on the issues. Their eyes are on the ball, not on a person. I would not want to say “a man” because I am trying to be politically correct; hence I use the phrase “a person”. [Laughter.] I must say that even the DA focused on the issues. There were some skirmishes here and there, but, by and large, they were on the issues.

As far as Cope is concerned indoda ifuna ukubuyela ekhaya, [a man wants to go back home].

Kgutlela hae. [Go back home.] You are lost there. You don’t belong there. [Interjections.] In that way, we would say that you tried to play politics. You were supposed to say that it’s Cope’s view that mayors should be directly elected, and not play politics which are neither here nor there.

Regarding the views that were expressed by the MEC from the Eastern Cape around drought, the Western Cape on the progress and the programmes that they are implementing, as well as KwaZulu-Natal in relation to the progress that has been registered in their programmes, projects and the challenges, we will take up all these issues. We will get them from Hansard because Hansard officials are here. We will ensure that we find a way to respond and engage on these things.

Discussions and debates are supposed to assist us to improve on what we are doing, and commend the good work that has been done. We should not raise issues as if everything that has been done is wrong. In that way, we reduce debates to something other than what it is supposed to be. From our point of view, we would want to have a situation where we would not be talking about the same issues next year. We want to talk about new issues that are qualitatively and quantitatively different from what has been done.

Equally, we think that the NCOP must begin to look at the possibility of creating themes for debate. Let’s assume that what we want to hear in South Africa is what we have done and how far we have gone with the programme of clean audit as a campaign.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms N W Magadla): Order! Hon Minister, somebody would like to ask a question.

Mr O DE BEER: House Chairperson, I just want to hear from the Minister if he is prepared to take a question.

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Yes, I can take a question. I am ready.

Mr O DE BEER: Thank you, Minister. Minister, you are one of the few Ministers that I like in terms of a hands-on approach. The question is: Don’t you think that we are moving on very dangerous turf when we send a message that government structures have to compete with each other? Government structures have to work with each other because your Deputy emphasised the fact that the role of spheres … [Interjections.] We can’t have a situation where we compete. We must rather use the best practice, as you mentioned in your input at the beginning.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): House Chair, can I rise on a point of order?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms N W Magadla): Hon member, can you quote the Rule on which you base your question? Which Rule is that?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Chair, on a point of order: The Minister is responding to a debate that we have had. Therefore, I cannot understand what kind of question the member can have when the Minister is, in actual fact, responding to a debate in which his party participated so robustly. I think the member is out of order by engaging the Minister on a question at this stage. Thank you, House Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms N W Magadla): That’s why I was asking which Rule …

Mr O DE BEER: House Chairperson, I don’t see a reason for a point of order because I am also a member of this House. Even if my party did engage in the debate, I have a right to debate in this House as well.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms N W Magadla): But the Minister is still responding. Could you please listen.

Mr O DE BEER: House Chairperson, I asked the Minister a question because the Minister also made an open remark in the same House. Thank you, House Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms N W Magadla): And now he is responding to the debate.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): House Chairperson, on a point of order: There is no basis or Rule that allows this member to ask the Minister a question at a stage when the Minister is responding to the debate, unless the Minister misquoted him during the process. Therefore, I am saying it again: The member is out of order, and I request the Chair to make a ruling on this particular matter.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms N W Magadla): That’s why I asked on which Rule the hon member based his question. Minister, you may continue with your response.

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, House Chairperson. I think it is important that we create thematic discussions and debates in order to get the country to report about the progress of programmes that have been undertaken.

The example that I was outlining is Operation Clean Audit. KwaZulu-Natal, Gauteng and other provinces have done very well in terms of turning things around. The province where there is some regression is the Eastern Cape. This is something for which we must create a platform and MECs must come and tell us what is happening in their areas. That will enable the House to become a national platform through which we can gauge progress in the country as things are unfolding. This is something that we must be looking at so that the House can be alive.

As I said earlier, one of the things that we will be taking up is the participation of the executive committee in this House; that is a source of concern. It is their House, but if they abandon their own House, where are they going to be? This House was created as a national platform on which provincial issues must be discussed. I think we must find a way to ensure that people are participating.

I think the NCOP and Parliament must assess whether it is correct that members of the legislature are sent by the executive to represent it. Is it correct for a person who does oversight to speak as if he or she is an executive committee member? [Interjections.] Are we not undermining the separation of powers doctrine when we do that? We must come with a ruling on this matter because people come to this House and do this. As far as I’m concerned, it is something that we must be clear about. If an MEC is unable to come, that particular MEC must ask another MEC to come and speak on his or her behalf. This is something that must be looked at, as we move forward.

Another issue which is important to us – I think all of us agree — is the issue of corruption. Corruption is a cancer that is eating the fabric of our society. It is something that all of us must deal with because, if we don’t, we are going to drown. We will be a failed state like others in other parts of the world where corruption was not dealt with. We must mobilise against it and deal with it.

We must also agree that, in order for us to realise a nonracial and nonsexist society, local government is key. Local government issues are not political; they are about water, electricity, roads and everything else that is required. We must ensure that we rise above politics and ensure that the aggrieved and the aggressor are able to work together; the governed and the governor are able to address their issues so that we can unleash the potential of South Africans. We must remove people who are gatekeepers. We must remove people who don’t want others to contribute in the discourse. For example, if you differ with me, there is no reason that I must not hear your views. It is always important that we attend to diversity.

What is our strategic task in this debate? We want to create a system of local government that is efficient and effective in the way it does its work. However, at the same time, it must be accountable and responsive. When people raise issues with you, you must attend to them. Don’t ignore them because the anger is bottled up and then explodes at some point.

Furthermore, local government matters are everybody’s business. All of us must make a contribution. I would like to hear of a situation where members report about the municipalities in which they stay so that we could take up the issues. That’s the only way we can transform it. We, as the executive, can’t solve all these problems. It is in partnership with you that we can begin to solve these problems.

With regard to traditional affairs, we must ensure that the voice of the rural people is heard. It’s high time that rural people are heard in policy development, legislative crafting, planning, budgeting and implementation. We are talking about 21 million people who stay in these areas. Out of the population of 48,5 million people, that force can’t be ignored.

Therefore we must ensure that our people are heard and the issue of unity in diversity is addressed. People tend to believe that if a person doesn’t look and behave like them, then he or she is not supposed to be a better person. Others are using their norms and standards to judge others. We are saying that that time is over. People must be able to practice their own cultures and ensure that they do what they want, as long as that is not offensive to the Constitution and the laws of the country. Therefore when we talk about unity in diversity, we will be able to contextualise that.

In conclusion, House Chairperson, we believe that the NCOP is the bedrock of our democratic system. We must always, at all times, ensure that we strengthen it in the way that we do things and interact with this House. As the department, we look forward to the meeting, which we said we must have, so that we can begin to confer and share ideas. This will enable us to take this House to another level. By so doing, we will leave a legacy of a House which is really at the heart and minds of South Africans. Thank you very much, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The Council adjourned at 11:54.