THURSDAY, 26 AUGUST 2010 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
                                ____

The Council met at 14:01.

The Deputy Chairperson (Ms T C Memela) took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

           COMPOSITION OF PARLIAMENTARY INTERFAITH COUNCIL

                         (Draft Resolution)

The ACTING CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL (Mr S S Mazosiwe): Chair, I move without notice:

That the Council –

 1) notes that on 10 March 2010, the National Assembly passed a
    resolution to the effect that Parliament would shortly establish a
    Parliamentary Interfaith Council;

 2) further notes that the matter has since been canvassed with all
    political parties; and therefore

3) in concurrence with the National Assembly –

       a) agrees to establish the Parliamentary Interfaith Council
          which will consist of nine National Assembly members, as
          follows: ANC – 5; DA – 1; Cope – 1; IFP – 1 and other parties
          – 1; and five National Council of Provinces members, as
          follows: ANC – 3; DA - 1 and other parties - 1; and

       b) mandates the Parliamentary Interfaith Council to perform
          those functions that are stipulated in the National Assembly
          resolution of 10 March 2010.

I thank you.

Question put: That the motion be agreed to.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                      SUSPENSION OF RULE 239(1)

                         (Draft Resolution)

The ACTING CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL (Mr S S Mazosiwe): Chair, I move without notice:

That Rule 239(1), which provides inter alia that the consideration of a Bill may not commence before at least three working days have elapsed since the committee’s report was tabled, be suspended for the purposes of consideration of the South African Reserve Bank Amendment Bill [B10-2010] (National Assembly – sec 75) on Thursday, 26 August 2010.

I thank you.

Question put: That the motion be agreed to.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape

Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

              SOUTH AFRICAN RESERVE BANK AMENDMENT BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

Mr C J DE BEER: Deputy Chairperson, all the Ministers and members of the House, we are celebrating Women’s Month, and we salute those women who, through their relentless efforts, helped to establish our democracy and the liberation of women.

Hon Deputy Chairperson, the time is now. I don’t know who of you can recall the posters in 1994 on the lamp posts that said: “The time is now”. For us to introspect about the contribution the financial sector has made in the feminist fight against poverty, we must also assess how the financial sector has assisted in the redirection of a lack of equal opportunities for women in positions of authority in the economy.

The hon Minister emphasised the important role of the SA Reserve Bank in the economy, as well as the relevance of the amendments to the existing Act which addresses the challenges that the Reserve Bank has encountered in the past.

In the processing of this Bill, the Select Committee on Finance also attended a briefing given by National Treasury and the Reserve Bank to the Standing Committee on Finance in the National Assembly, as well as hearings on 2 and 3 June 2010. The select committee also received a briefing on the amending Bill on 12 August 2010 and also received written submissions and had presentations made by shareholders on 24 August 2010.

Hon members will be aware of the debate in the public domain regarding the role of the Reserve Bank which has been going on in the recent past, and now currently since the publication of the Bill for public comment. Prior to the publication of the Bill, the debate was about whether it is desirable to have private investors and shareholders in the Reserve Bank and whether or not it should be entirely nationalised. This question arose out of a concern that private shareholders could use their shareholding power to influence the Reserve Bank’s monetary policy to the detriment of the national interest.

With regard to the composition of the board, the committee’s work was guided by the minimum regulatory interventions aimed at ensuring that the substance of the key mandate of the Reserve Bank remains the domain of the Governor of the Reserve Bank and other executives. The proposed amendment to the composition of the board gives effect to the separation of responsibilities between the executive and the board. The Bill also proposes that four directors be appointed by the President in addition to those who would be nominated through the public process.

With regard to shareholders, the Reserve Bank is a public institution that derives its mandate from the Constitution, which guarantees its independence from external influence. The role of the shareholder is very limited, and this makes it different from commercial banks. It is in this regard that each person is allowed to own a maximum of 10 000 shares, which entitles him or her to an equal 50 votes in an annual general meeting, AGM.

The attempt by some of the shareholders to increase their shareholding through proxies and associates, such as family members, has serious implications for the Reserve Bank and may lead to monetary policy manipulation of the Reserve Bank, which will have a serious impact on the economy. The consequences of these activities will lead to a narrowing of the public participation share of ordinary citizens in the Reserve Bank.

With regard to the appointment and powers of the board, the select committee is in support of the establishment of the panel which will ensure that certain proper persons will serve on the board. It is important to support these amendments in order for the Reserve Bank to play its central role, where the main task is to achieve and maintain price stability by using various instruments of monetary policy, such as interest rates, which have an impact on inflation and the economy as set out by a democratic government.

I agree that there are opponents to this Bill. We met them yesterday. The question we should ask is: What kind of society do we seek to create? It is about understanding the process of transformation. It is significant to note that our Reserve Bank is only but one of the few – nine, in fact – central banks in the world with private shareholder participation. The others are the United States of America, Belgium, Switzerland, Japan, Greece, Pakistan, Italy and Australia.

It is evident that, after the financial economic crisis, the majority of governments in the world are beginning to review the role of central banking in the economy. Through correct policy mix and choices, a central bank can determine the rate of inflation, which influences the size of the consumer basket. It is important that the value of money remains stable because no modern economy can function well if its currency continuously loses value.

The committee is in support of the establishment of the open process of nominating directors to the board. The creation of legitimate state and public institutions can only be derived through regular and popular participation of ordinary people. The independence of the Reserve Bank can be safeguarded by ensuring that those who are nominated to serve will do so with the full understanding that the primary objective of the Reserve Bank is not to satisfy the likes and expectations of shareholders whose primary motive is to make sure of profit at the expense of the poor.

Hon Deputy Chair, the select committee puts its report to this honourable House and asks the House to adopt their report in support of the SA Reserve Bank Amendment Bill. Hon Deputy Chairperson, I thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.

Mr T D HARRIS: Chair, on a point of order: May I request the Minister of Finance to declare his vote? [Laughter.]

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: [Inaudible.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): You have been answered. You have the answer.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

    THE ROLE OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES IN CO-OPERATIVE
  GOVERNMENT AND INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS: UNLOCKING THE SYNERGY
                        FOR COLLECTIVE EFFORT

                      (Subject for Discussion)

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Deputy Chairperson, hon Ministers here today, Premier of the Northern Cape — that’s the only one I can see currently — MECs here today, permanent delegates and special delegates, I want to thank you for attending this debate in your numbers. I also want to give special thanks to the Minister of Public Works, Mr Doidge, who actually challenged us long ago, saying that this debate is overdue and needs to be called, and I promised that I would call it.

I really appreciate that the provinces are also here today to debate the role of the National Council of Provinces in co-operative government and intergovernmental relations: Unlocking the synergy for collective effort. The topic recognises the inherent synergy within the National Council of Provinces, NCOP; however, in order to realise its potential, the NCOP needs to unlock this synergy to ensure and facilitate collective action.

Let me try to conceptualise this. The new South Africa was founded on the principle of a unitary state, with regional features being the products of the compromise. Given this, it became necessary to have an institution to replace the old Senate that you know as the second House of Parliament. At conceptualisation, the primary function of the new institution, the NCOP, was to facilitate co-operative governance, by facilitating co-operation, co- ordination and consultation in executive matters within and across the different spheres of government.

The arrangement of South Africa according to provinces then necessitated the existence of a co-ordinating forum at a national level. That is why all of us are here today, co-ordinated at a national level, to come and discuss this important issue.

What is the constitutional framework that depicts this? In terms of the Constitution, all of you would remember that our government is constituted as three spheres of government, namely national, provincial and local government. These spheres are distinctive, but are however interrelated and interdependent. They are obliged to observe and adhere to the principle of co-operative government and intergovernmental relations.

This includes that they must, firstly — and all of us should listen carefully — provide effective, transparent, accountable and coherent government; secondly, respect the constitutional status, institutions, powers and functions of government in other spheres of government; and thirdly, co-operate with one another in mutual trust and good faith. These are the three important principles that come from the Constitution. All of us have to understand them in order to function properly as the three spheres of government.

Further, the Constitution provides for an Act of Parliament to establish or provide for structures and institutions to promote and facilitate intergovernmental relations. In this regard we have in place the Intergovernmental Relations Framework Act. This Act establishes a framework for national, provincial and local governments to promote and facilitate intergovernmental relations and provide for mechanisms and procedures to facilitate the settlement of international disputes. It is the responsibility of Parliament therefore, especially this House, the NCOP, to oversee the implementation of this Act by the executive.

What is the position and role of the NCOP in doing so? Against this background, it is important to note that the NCOP is strategically placed to play a central role in promoting co-operative government and intergovernmental relations. It brings together representatives of three spheres of government, that is national, provincial and local government, under one roof, like we are today, to consider issues, including issues relating to how their governments are impacted by the decisions taken at a national level. It is very important that these three spheres of government realign and talk to each other for better service delivery on the ground.

The inherent synergy of the NCOP has been expressed practically through the way in which it conducts its business. For example, with the “Taking Parliament to the People” programme, representatives of the three spheres of government embark on public participation together. None of them is left out. We are all there as the leadership to take questions, respond to the issues, and therefore follow up on the issues that people raise on the ground, and make sure that their lives are bettered.

During provincial week we do the same thing. The three spheres of government come together, work together and make sure that the work is done and co-ordinated in a better way. However, this synergy needs to be further unlocked so as to enhance co-ordination among the three spheres of government. It is very clear that for any meaningful oversight to take place there must be co-operation, collaboration and consultation at the level of the executive, which is the arm of government responsible for implementation. It is for this reason that we always employ a cluster approach, bringing related portfolios together when considering Budget Votes, for example.

To facilitate co-operative government and intergovernmental relations, we have rationalised the portfolios of the House Chairpersons. We now have a portfolio for co-operative government and intergovernmental relations. This signals the maturity of the NCOP, because this portfolio encapsulates the essence of our mandate.

Through the creation of this portfolio, these are the things that we want to achieve: firstly, a high level of understanding of the role that the NCOP can play in promoting the principle of co-operative government and intergovernmental relations; secondly, to improve the capacity to monitor and assess government performance with regard to ensuring a co-ordinated and co-operative approach to service delivery; and lastly, to enhance the impact of public participation initiatives and the role of the NCOP in international fiscal matters.

The NCOP has many instruments that it uses to advance the principle of co- operative governance and intergovernmental relations. These include the Division of Revenue Act. This is an oversight tool that is essential for the purpose of promoting sound internal fiscal administration. However, there are some challenges in the implementation of this Act which require our attention. I hope some of the members will touch on these, but let me touch on a few of them: Firstly, with regard to fiscal capacity and efficiency, when resources are allocated we need to ensure that provinces and municipalities have the necessary capacity to utilise those resources, otherwise we might be locking up money that could be used elsewhere.

Secondly, it is also important to check whether or not government resources are used efficiently, meaning without any wastage. That is a very important aspect, not just for the NCOP, but for all of us - whether one is a national Member of Parliament, a provincial Member of Parliament or a councillor. How those particular resources are used on the ground to make the lives of the people on the ground better is a very important issue.

The third issue is with regard to long-term planning. Planning remains one of the challenges facing government at the moment. One often finds that people do not adopt a long-term view when planning. Few people know today what they want to do in 10 years’time. As a result, government projects are often done in a piecemeal fashion, often without properly assessing the needs of the people.

Yet we have a progressive three-year rolling expenditure framework in the form of the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework which can be used as a basis for multiparty year planning. That is why the Minister of Finance has come with this Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, because it allows one to plan better for one’s longer- and mid-term planning, so that it goes together with the resources that one has, and one is then able to achieve the plans that one has in place. I hope the Minister of Finance will dwell on this a little bit. That is actually why we found it important that he also participates in this type of debate.

Let us look at the issue of budget management very quickly. Poor planning leads to poor budget management. For instance, this can be seen in the following expenditure figures in infrastructure budgets, which I picked up in one of the provinces: In the 2008-09 budget they spent 132% of the infrastructure budget. In 2009-10, they spent 84% of the infrastructure budget. In both instances it does not appear that proper planning was done. This requires proactive oversight on our side and making sure that the planning is proper and is properly done.

Recently, during my visit to the Free State, I think it was about two weeks ago, I was shown a project that is run by the province which the local municipality is not aware of. Yet the local municipality will be expected to provide services such as water and electricity once the project is finalised. We cannot work like that. Surely, if there is a project that is done by either of the spheres of government on the ground, it has to speak with the other sphere of government and check what the services are that the other sphere has to be engaged in. Otherwise, at the completion of that particular project the local sphere of government will not be able to provide the necessary resources — the water and electricity — that they should and are supposed to provide, because they will not have budgeted for that as they did not know what was happening. Therefore we need to plan together and make sure that the plan tallies into the three spheres of government.

In order to promote that sustainable local development, it is therefore very important to consider the integrated development plans, IDPs, of municipalities. Among other things, IDPs are crucial for: firstly, effective use of scarce resources; secondly, speedy delivery of services; thirdly, strengthening democracy; and lastly, promotion of co-ordination between local, provincial and national government.

These are important, because they then begin by helping role-players to focus on the most important needs of local communities, taking into account the resources that are available. This is also possible through the identification of, at least, the services in the most impoverished areas. Through the active participation of all of the stakeholders, we can achieve to better planning and use of those particular resources. As a different sphere, local government is encouraged to work in a co-ordinated manner to tackle and develop the needs of the local area.

In conclusion, the NCOP has an important role to play in facilitating co- operative government and intergovernmental relations. As such, today’s debate should serve as a catalyst for further elaboration on mechanisms of how the principles of co-operative government and intergovernmental relations could be advanced in practice by this House.

It is with this in mind that we will note, very clearly, the issues raised by all the people who will be participating today for the purpose of strengthening the role of the NCOP in ensuring that government, although constituted at different spheres, works as one for the betterment of the delivery of services on the ground.

I would suggest to the House, if you agree with me, that, at the end of this debate, the NCOP will have to sit down further and work out the mechanism that we can use to take forward the issues that will be raised by the different speakers in this House today. Thank you. [Applause.] The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Deputy Chairperson, Ministers and Deputy Ministers, premier, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, I am going to display the facts. I’m getting a little bit older, so I’m going to reflect on a bit of history, which I think is not unimportant in this context.

We are 16 years into democracy, of which 14 years have been guided by one of the most respected constitutions in the world. This Constitution of ours enjoins us, and I quote:

To heal the divisions of the past and establish a society based on democratic values, social justice and fundamental human rights;

Lay the foundations for a democratic and open society in which government is based on the will of the people and every citizen is equally protected by law;

Improve the quality of life of all citizens and free the potential of each person; and

Build a united and democratic South Africa able to take its rightful place as a sovereign state in the family of nations.

I quote from the preamble to the Constitution. Forgive me for coughing; I’m recovering from flu.

It is also important to remind ourselves that our Constitution and the intergovernmental system we have today, as the Chairperson pointed out, is a product of political negotiations and compromises during those negotiations. The Interim Constitution, which embraced the outcome of our constitutional negotiations, lists a set of constitutional principles, which the 1996 Constitution had to be based upon.

Among the constitutional principles are that government shall be structured at the national, provincial and local levels. In other words, we couldn’t produce the 1996 Constitution if government wasn’t structured this way. Other principles are that at each level of government there shall be democratic representation; powers and functions of the national government and provincial governments and the boundaries of the provinces shall be defined in the Constitution; and powers and functions at the national and provincial levels of government shall include exclusive and concurrent powers. There are a number of others, including that a framework for local government powers, functions and structures shall be set in the Constitution. When you see the written version of my speech, you could have a look at that.

When we drafted a new Constitution in 1996, we had to ensure - and eventually the Constitutional Court ensured - that the new Constitution complied with these principles.

We in the ANC have always been clear that we required what we call unitary federalism in South Africa, if we were to overcome the legacy of apartheid. Today we aspire to be a developmental state, which is uncompromisingly focused on creating jobs, improving education and health, providing better security to our people and developing our rural areas. Clearly, dynamic economic growth, which both creates jobs and eradicates poverty, is central to our mission. We also want an activist state. We want a capable state — a state which has the strategic leadership and operational capabilities and resources to ensure that we can accomplish our mission.

The recent financial crisis has clearly demonstrated that strong governments are essential throughout the world. I quote from a recent column on this in the Financial Times which states:

The state remains the ultimate protector of people’s interests as markets overreach, on both the upswings and downswings of capitalism. Self- regulation — à la 16th-century Scottish bankers — or a light-touch regulatory system cannot be the solution for the modern financial world. A co-ordinated, activist and sceptical regulatory system is needed … A smarter, more active state is the way forward.

  The question for us is whether the way in which co-operative
  governance and intergovernmental relations are structured today and
  the way in which the NCOP works enhances this kind of objective.

Our Constitution recognises that centrifugal forces — for those of us who might have forgotten our physics, these are forces that pull apart — operate within a quasi-federal system. There’s always a tendency to move away from one another and not quite co-operate with one another.

So, we developed a unique Chapter 3 on co-operative governance, which sets out principles of a co-operative government and intergovernmental relations. Among these is the need to secure the wellbeing of the people of South Africa; provide an effective, transparent, accountable and coherent government for the Republic as a whole; and respect the constitutional status, institutions, powers and functions of government in other spheres, and several others. It also asks all of us to be friendly to one another. I don’t see too many of you smiling.

The NCOP is also a unique institution, which was designed, as it says in the Constitution, and I quote, “to ensure that provincial interests are taken into account in the national sphere of government”. In addition, the participation of 10 part-time local government representatives in the NCOP was probably a first, if you like, for constitutions around the world.

The allocation of exclusive and concurrent powers to the different spheres of government determines roles and responsibilities of each sphere within this framework of co-operative government and intergovernmental relations.

Chairperson, this summit asks crucial questions. After 16 years of democracy, can we say that co-operative governance is optimal in our country? Do we have the maximum synergy amongst the various structures of government? Are we as organised and aligned as we need to be to deliver government services to our people and to be a leading force for development and change in our society? We have done very well, I believe, in our first 16 years, but I’m sure all of us would admit that we could have done better.

We have made excellent gains in providing access to water, electricity, housing, health and education. Our access to health and education services is on par with the most developed nations, but the quality of our services could be much better. Our expenditure on education, for example - and I’m sure you have heard this many times - is on par with most developed nations, but the quality of our learners lags behind that of our peer countries. In 2006, South African learners ranked last out of 40 countries for overall Grade 4 reading achievement and last out of 46 countries on Grade 8 mathematics achievement.

Despite increased spending on health and other relevant social services, life expectancy in South Africa has consistently decreased since 1990. We are one of only 12 countries whose maternal mortality has increased since

1. So, all of us need to ask some very serious questions about whether our intergovernmental systems are working, and whether the right kind of delivery is in fact taking place. If not, what can we, as the House of provinces, so to speak, do to improve this delivery at the provincial level?

Health and education outcomes are also impacted on by a range of factors outside these sectors, including poor delivery of housing and basic services to our people. The Constitution and the local government legislation require national and provincial government to support and build the capacity of municipalities, yet so many of our municipalities are in a financial crisis, mainly because the basics are not done properly.

This world, and indeed South Africans themselves, have become accustomed to the idea that we pull off miracles repeatedly. The peaceful path to democracy, the 1994 elections, the uniting role of sport and, more recently, the World Cup, are but some examples of the miracles we can pull off.

There is another massive task we have been undertaking, unnoticed, for the past decade and a half, which is that of building a developmental and capable state still in the making and at the same time transforming South Africa and offering a better life for all South Africans. This balance between building capability and delivering capably is a crucial one for us to understand ourselves better so that we can identify where we could do things both differently and on a much more improved basis than we are doing currently.

In 10 to 20 years’ time we will know whether we have pulled off another miracle in this regard or not. For now, Chairperson, you ask a more focused question: What role can the NCOP play in enhancing co-operative governance and intergovernmental relations? I offer the following thoughts and challenges for your consideration. Firstly, we need to do more to inculcate the ethos of unitary federalism and co-operative governance in the minds and hearts of the public, politicians and civil servants. We must question whether the culture of politics and the operational culture of civil servants enhance our regional vision of a cohesive state and society.

Secondly, in bridging the provincial and local government voice into national deliberations there is a need to review the interaction and quality of discussions between the NA and the NCOP, so that both a diversity of views and different perspectives are embraced in national deliberations. In other words, are we doing enough in really bringing the provincial voice to national deliberations or is there a different quality of conversation that needs to take place between the NA committees and your committees in order that we could lift our gains in terms of the provincial inputs into these conversations?

Thirdly, we need a more active engagement from provinces and local government on economic matters, in particular the dynamic role that provinces and municipalities can play in providing economic infrastructure and opportunities to our entrepreneurs and our unemployed youth.

Fourthly, the NCOP could more critically look into whether we are building focused and resilient institutions of the developmental state appropriately. If we think that we have a developmental state, then we don’t have to worry; we have the institutions. If we think that we are building a developmental state, then we need to examine more carefully each of our institutions and ask whether they are correctly focused and operating correctly.

Fifthly, the concurrent areas of education, health and housing require urgent attention. There must be a more vigorous interrogation of organisational and delivery capability and obstacles in genuinely ensuring that our children are receiving better education and our people are receiving better health care.

Sixthly, poor utilisation and misuse of resources in our provinces and municipalities is reaching serious proportions. Honest citizens can no longer sit passively while a small clique of rent—seekers plunder the state. The NCOP must urgently play an active role in this regard.

Seventhly, the area of procurement practices in provinces and municipalities requires your urgent attention. The recent country-wide arrests are but the tip of the iceberg in terms of what’s going on. We are losing billions of rand as the country, through provinces and municipalities, let alone national departments, and this is something that you as the House of provinces need to pay urgent attention to.

Eighthly, there’s also a need to review current fiscal arrangements. We can no longer have a situation where, for example, a national goal is set for health and money is allocated to provinces as part of the equitable share. But because this is not earmarked, provinces have been using money intended for health for all sorts of special projects that have nothing to do with improving the lives of our people. That is why health is in the state that we find it in today in many of our provinces.

Ninthly, provinces are also spending inordinate amounts of money on personnel costs at the expense of learning material and equipment vital for theatres in hospitals.

Tenthly, provinces are also hiring too many administrative staff and creating bloated bureaucracies, rather than hiring more teachers, nurses and doctors, and those who deliver front—line services.

Lastly, I believe that, above all, a developmental state is judged by what it delivers and the impact it has on the lives of our people. We can certainly do more, through both the NCOP and other institutions, to truly create more synergy and better alignment so that we can all say at some stage that we have indeed made a difference.

The challenge facing the NCOP is how to select the right kind of issues, and I’ve suggested some of them. You concretely intervene whilst addressing the concept of intergovernmental relations and the concept of co-operative governance, but by direct engagement on these concrete issues rather than as an obstruction.

In conclusion, Chairperson, may I thank Mr De Beer and the NCOP for so kindly and expeditiously dealing with the SA Reserve Bank Amendment Bill, and for all the support that we’ve had from all of you. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N W Magadla): Hon Deputy Chairperson, hon Ministers, premiers, MECs and hon members, the theme for today is “The role of the NCOP in co-operative government and intergovernmental relations: Unlocking the synergy for collective effort.”

The process of unlocking the synergy of the NCOP for advancing the constitutional principles of co-operative government and intergovernmental relations is gaining momentum. The ANC has deemed Parliament to be an arena of activism. An activist NCOP is one that is robust and constructive.

The creation of a new portfolio to champion co-operative government and intergovernmental relations at the level of the presidium provides the House with the opportunity to discharge its mandate in a more meaningful manner.

The NCOP Rules provide that the House Chairperson for Co-operative Government and Intergovernmental Relations must, amongst other things, perform certain important tasks on behalf of the institution. These include facilitating the NCOP process of monitoring adherence to the principles of co-operative government and intergovernmental relations by government as outlined in Chapter 3 of the Constitution; monitoring and reporting on planning and implementation of service delivery programmes, policies and laws by the three spheres of government; monitoring the overall processing of interventions in compliance with section 139 of the Constitution, the regular review of interventions approved by the House, and providing strategic advice when necessary; facilitating the participation of the SA Local Government Association, Salga, processes in the NCOP and its committees; facilitating the consideration of issues emanating from Salga; and assessing measures taken by the national and provincial governments to support and strengthen the capacity of municipalities to manage their own affairs, exercise their powers and perform their functions.

Many of these tasks are derived directly from the Constitution. This means that the process of unlocking the synergy for collective effort must, among other things, empower and assist us to do what the Constitution expects of us.

The workshop for NCOP Whips and chairpersons held earlier this month provided space for us to deliberate on some important issues with regard to the implementation of the mandate of this House. Today’s debate is a deliberate attempt at sharing our common expectations on how best to realise an efficient and effective government that, through a co-operative approach, moves increasingly faster to deliver services to the people.

The drafters of our Constitution would not have thought it significant to dedicate a chapter to co-operation and good relations if they did not believe that these were important issues in facilitating service delivery. We must note that the emphasis in the Constitution is on co-operation and not competition.

Beyond this debate we are looking towards convening a round table discussion for purposes of informing ourselves about mechanisms for promoting co-operative government and intergovernmental relations. We will use this opportunity to get a deeper understanding of some of the inbuilt technicalities in our laws. We hope that such an engagement will help us to enhance our capacity to monitor the extent to which the three spheres of government work in a co-operative and co-ordinated manner.

As the NCOP, we have committed ourselves to ensuring that we always put policy issues for debate on our agenda. In doing so we hope that we will be able to assess weaknesses and also appreciate strengths of policy interventions.

On the other hand, such debates will provide a platform to demonstrate how co-operation can improve the delivery of quality services to the people, and our handling of challenges in implementation.

It is my belief that, in articulating the role of the NCOP in promoting the principles of co-operative government and intergovernmental relations in a more meaningful manner, we will be contributing to the shaping of an activist parliament.

An activist parliament must encourage robust and constructive debate – as I have said – on matters that are of concern to our people. It must stand on the side of the poor and the vulnerable. The ongoing process I have referred to – of unlocking synergy for collective effort – must culminate in the development of a clear programme of action for the advancement of co- operation and co-ordination. It must take into account previous engagements and thoughts on how to strengthen the functioning of the NCOP.

In this regard, we must, among other things, look at the question of whether the number of permanent delegates – there is a total of 54 – is enough to enable the NCOP to fulfil its constitutional mandate more effectively. This has long been a subject of debate.

We have to note the call made consistently by the Chairperson of this House, which is that, in carrying out our mandate, we must always focus on the best advances of the mandate of the NCOP, for example section 76 matters.

We must devise mechanisms to deal with the issue of unfunded mandates.

We must clarify the role of the second Deputy Chairperson who, according to practice, is a premier. Properly conceptualised, this position could be used to advance co-operation and co-ordination if we still want to keep it.

We must promote, share and disseminate information from the various spheres of government in order for citizens to be empowered with such information.

We must consider legislation meant to promote intergovernmental relations to see whether there are any gaps as far as the role of the NCOP is concerned. These are thoughts on which there has been agreement in the past and which I suggest we reflect on going forward and implement.

In conclusion, it is my view that, whilst the representation of Salga in this House is critical, we need to ensure that Salga derives value out of engaging the NCOP. This is one of the priority issues I will be considering as I take up the role of leading the function of co-operative government and intergovernmental relations. Salga must participate meaningfully here. Also, where we agree, we must sharply raise the issues they bring to us with both provincial and national governments, and ensure that they receive the necessary attention.

Hon members, our success in promoting co-operative government and intergovernmental relations depends on active participation and collaboration by all key role-players to strengthen our intergovernmental system. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr T D HARRIS: I am glad you are not sleeping. [Interjections.] Deputy Chairperson, Ministers, MECs and delegates, I agree with the Minister of Finance’s comments on a strong, smart and more active state. Firstly, I think such a system that he is proposing does not need to amend the current devolution of power in our system; and secondly, I suggest that the Minister of Finance should not have to look very far for a strong, smart and more active state when he is standing in this House.

Indeed, he only needs to look as far as the metro of the city of Cape Town and the Western Cape province. The Minister of Finance spoke about the misuse of resources in the provinces and municipalities and the whole list of other issues afflicting them. I would like to tell the Minister of Finance that is not the case in this municipality and/or province.

The fact is that the performance of the DA in this province and in this city is the example that proves that the constitutional principle of federalism and a unitary state is the best way of improving service delivery, if only voters exercise their democratic rights. Unfortunately, I disagree with the Chairperson’s reading of the Constitution. I will explain why I say that. The topic today is “The role of the NCOP in co-operative government and intergovernmental relations: Unlocking the synergy for collective effort”.

Let me first point out that the role of the Council is clearly defined in section 42(4) of the Constitution. The NCOP represents the provinces, to ensure that provincial interests are taken into account in the national sphere of government. The simple answer to the debate topic is that, constitutionally speaking, the NCOP has nothing to do directly with co- operative governance. Co-operation between the spheres of government needs to take place outside of this House, in Minmecs, extended Cabinet meetings, as well as Salga and the co-operative governance Ministry forums.

Instead, along with the NA, the NCOP is meant to provide a check and balance on executive power at a national level. In particular, we are meant to ensure that the views of the people living in our provinces are taken into account at a national level. It is as simple as that. Section 42(4) goes on to say that the NCOP should achieve this mainly by participating in the national legislative process and by providing a national forum for public consideration of issues affecting the provinces.

We can debate the story of unlocking the synergy for a collective effort as an abstract issue. I am fine with that. But in this House we want to be debating specifics. My reading of the Constitution means that it may not allow us to specifically debate how to unlock the synergy for a collective effort. It is not in the mandate of this House. That is not to say that we should only think in terms of the narrow silos of individual provinces. As the Chairperson has indicated, section 42(4) of the Constitution states that the spheres of government are distinctive, but they are also interdependent and interrelated. We can and must learn from each other.

In our Finance committee yesterday, we saw several provinces offering to help the North West with the staffing issue which they had previously experienced themselves. This is something we should do. We are all in this together. If one province succeeds, it will raise the whole nation, and hopefully the world. If one province fails, we will all bear the costs.

However, you will excuse me if I choose to reject the proposal that we should be unlocking the synergy for collective efforts in this House. I will leave that to the Western Cape’s MECs in their Minmecs and the Western Cape Premier and her Cabinet. Instead, I will stick to the constitutionally defined mandate of the NCOP, to ensure that provincial interests are taken into account in the national sphere of government.

My first point is that it is not in the interests of the people of the Western Cape to develop any governance synergies in this debate. On the contrary, the very reason provinces exist is to ensure that government services are tailored to the different circumstances our people face in their provinces, to move government closer to the people, and to ensure diversity. In addition, our Constitution recognises the principle that absolute power corrupts. So it devolves key portions of power to the provinces in Schedules 4 and 5.

The people of the Western Cape value this. They expressed this when they came out in overwhelming numbers to elect the DA government last year. This has proven to be a good choice. The DA has cleaned up government. Yesterday the Auditor-General announced a clean sweep of 25 unqualified audits in the Western Cape provincial government. These results are unprecedented in this province. [Applause.]

The DA has created jobs in this province. As we moved into 2010, despite a 1% increase in unemployment nationally, in the Western Cape it dropped by 1%. We have also delivered services. This recent report on service delivery shows that the Western Cape is the best performer of all provinces in delivering basic services. In the Cape Town metro, where we have been in power for five years, 94% of households have proper sanitation; 95% have access to electricity; 98% are having their refuse collected; and 100% have access to water. These numbers are way above any other municipality in the country.

All these have been achieved by the DA provincial government, despite a poor recent performance by the ANC in national government. This leads us to believe that the ANC wants synergies because it is threatened by divergent views. Its recent behaviour backs the media tribunal and Protection of Information Bill and firm control of the SABC.

The Minister of Finance spoke about a centrifugal pulling apart of things. I am afraid the only centrifugal forces pulling things apart are within the ANC itself. I can prove this by asking the Minister of Finance where his proposal on youth wage subsidies is, five months after he promised that it would be tabled.

I am afraid I am out of time. The DA’s municipalities in provinces are going from strength to strength; and the ANC’s aren’t. This is the proof of how devolution of power in our Constitution works. We are ensuring better delivery of services to our people. I thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Madam Chair, hon Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, hon Ministers, hon members of the House, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, I must take note of the comments made by the hon T D Harris directed to my colleague, the Minister of Finance. I must say that I was rather disappointed, though, with what he had to say, because I thought that the debate was giving him the opportunity to make a constructive contribution to what is an important topic: to promote intergovernmental relations; but he rather sought the opportunity to wave his party’s flag, which I thought was unnecessary. I wish he had been at a meeting that was held in the Western Cape last weekend at which the Deputy President and the delegation from the national government visited Plettenberg Bay on an antipoverty campaign. Present at that particular meeting was his leader – the DA leader and Premier of the Western Cape. I wish he had been there to hear what she had to say about intergovernmental relations when she aligned herself completely with the strategic outcomes that the national government is driving towards in the antipoverty campaign and said that the only difference between the Western Cape and the national government in the way in which they conduct their affairs is that we sought the same outcomes to eradicate poverty.

The Deputy President said, “One of the things we have to do in promoting intergovernmental relations is not to bother with the fact that we have different parties governing at different levels, but that we need to discover how to work with each other so that the national goals of this country could be achieved.” The eradication of poverty, hon Harris, is such a common goal that it should inspire all of us.

This particular debate needs to ensure that strategic alignment and harmonisation of government institutions within the three spheres of government remains a strategic priority of the ANC-led government. We are confident that the creation of a single, integrated and seamless Public Service will unlock the bottlenecks in providing quality public services to our various communities. A single system of public administration, management and governance that covers the three spheres of government is a strategic intervention to further enhance the attainment of South Africa’s developmental goals. For the state to intervene effectively and in a coherent way to address social and economic developmental goals, the Public Service must be seen as one and must function harmoniously. Resources must be utilised effectively and efficiently and national norms and minimum standards must be established through the appropriate legislation and regulatory framework.

The Chair of the NCOP in his address reminded us that the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa requires co-operative and effective government, while recognising that government in the national, provincial and local spheres is distinctive, interdependent, and interrelated. Together, the three spheres of government are required to provide an effective, transparent, accountable and coherent government for the entire country. This requires that the spheres respect each other’s territories, powers and functions while striving to work together in a meaningful way to maximise service delivery and its impact for the citizens.

My contribution in this debate is to focus on how the single Public Service strategic project could enhance leadership roles for the NCOP in achieving the outcomes that we seek. The single Public Service initiative has been identified as the vehicle that will integrate, harmonise, and align the system of governance, administration, management, accountability, and planning across the spheres of government to fulfil the following objective: To deepen integrated service delivery by creating service delivery points from which the citizen can access a basket of public services. Multiple institutions are to collaborate on creating a single window from which citizens can access a range of services, be it the service delivered at the local, provincial or national spheres.

It also has the objectives of strategically aligning the institutions that comprise the machinery of government to complement one another; to ensure a common culture of service delivery, based on the precepts of Batho Pele in order to ensure consistently high standards of service from the public service; to stabilise and strengthen intergovernmental relations, recognising the distinctiveness of the spheres while emphasising their interdependence and interrelatedness; to achieve more coherent, integrated planning, budgeting, implementation, monitoring and evaluation within a single or integrated Public Service; to create a single senior management service cadre, where appointments will be to the service rather than to the post, facilitating the mobility of these managers within the integrated Public Service; and to provide a uniform framework of remuneration and conditions of service for the single Public Service.

It also seeks to establish uniform norms and standards for employment in the single Public Service, including employment practices and employee relations frameworks and mandating arrangements; to provide for a mechanism for the approval of deviations from the norm in exceptional circumstances; and to provide a mechanism for the transfer of functions and staff between institutions or spheres of government within the framework provided by the Constitution and the Labour Relations Act.

It also seeks to provide for a human resource development strategy and the development of an integrated skills database to support our human resource planning; it seeks to provide for an anticorruption strategy that must prevail across all three spheres; and to ensure that e-governance, information, communication and technology regulations, norms and standards are adhered to within the single Public Service.

Government has made inroads in achieving integrated and accessible service delivery through the usage of platforms such as Thusong centres, the Batho Pele Gateway, call centres, mobile units and community development centres, but it is recognised that much more needs to done to strengthen our current initiatives, to capitalise on new technology and to expand on existing access initiatives through creative, innovative and cost-effective means, to increase the number of services delivered to the citizens via these various channels, to focus on human resource-related matters such as capacity-building, remuneration and conditions of service, and to inculcate an ethos of Batho Pele as central to each of these access initiatives.

In July 2007 Cabinet approved the establishment of the Geographic Information System for the single Public Service to assist in consolidating the abundance of special data pertaining to the delivery of services across the three spheres of government. The aims of the Geographic Information System include support for service delivery planning across the Public Service; support for the improvement of the utilisation of resources across the spheres; and support for collective efforts in monitoring and evaluation.

One of the strongest arguments for a single Public Service is the facilitation of mobility between the institutions of government. The challenge here is to create a more cohesive workforce consisting of all spheres of government and, most importantly, a multiskilled and mobile cadre of public servants to deliver integrated services.

It is therefore imperative that urgent attention be paid to the harmonisation of remuneration, conditions of service and benefits in all spheres of government. The harmonisation of conditions of service requires initially that local government rationalises its conditions of service. This process has already commenced and there have been positive developments in this regard.

Local government is now working towards a single medical aid and a single pension fund. In the Public Service there is a single pension fund and there is a substantial shift of employees from open medical aid schemes to the Government Employees Medical Scheme, known as Gems. The membership of Gems now stands at 500 000 principal members.

The SA Local Government Association, Salga, instituted 10 categories of municipalities, limiting the number of pay scales, and instituted a common job evaluation system. Despite these efforts, Public Service and local government conditions are indeed still very disparate.

Through the single Public Service overarching legislation should define all spheres of government as being part of the single employer for the purposes of the transfer of functions and personnel. The overarching legislation should also enable the transfer of staff to and from the national and provincial level and from other organs of state.

Experience has shown that institutions in all spheres and public entities have human resource capacity problems which impact on their ability to deliver services on the ground. Under the single Public Service it will be critical that resources are allocated to areas where they are needed. To achieve this goal it is imperative that the existing human resource framework be aligned. To realise this it will be critical to establish whether current human resource management practices across the three spheres of government will support this vision; and, if not, what should be done to ensure the required degree of alignments.

As indicated, human resource management and development, conditions of service, remuneration, and fringe benefits in the Public Service and local government are indeed significantly different. This is informed by a comprehensive study conducted in 2008 on remuneration, grading, conditions of service, policies and practices in the public service and municipalities. In the Public Service a salary is determined in terms of job weight, whilst in municipalities affordability determines the salary level. There are also glaring disparities within municipalities in the provision of benefits, which also makes transfers within the local government level even more difficult and thus fails to support effective service delivery across the spheres.

Noting that there are different approaches currently adopted by institutions within the three spheres of government and the need to ensure that there is ease of mobility between the spheres, there is a need for a clear policy on remuneration that allows for the determination of a key salary structure and flexibility in respect of major occupational groups in the three spheres of government. The envisaged overarching legislation should provide for a national framework to set norms and standards in respect of all aspects of human resource management and development remuneration on related issues.

The overarching legislation should make provision for the development of a regulatory framework to foster the institution of appropriate human resource management systems and the development of relevant policies to facilitate: the identification and adoption of a common human resource, HR, information system in all institutions; the development of a comprehensive human resource strategy; the determination of recruitment and selection procedures to facilitate the attraction and recruitment of staff with the necessary and appropriate skills; and the development and implementation of career planning development and advancement programmes across the three separate spheres.

A major challenge in all spheres of government is the inability of public sector institutions to attract, develop, retain, and deploy competent managers and professionals to fulfil service delivery commitments.

Noting these challenges, it is envisaged that senior managers in the various spheres of government would constitute the Senior Management Service, SMS, under this overarching legislation. Uniformity in the following areas should be achieved for this management service: the recruitment and selection of personnel; remuneration and conditions of service; performance management and development; competency framework; ethics and conduct; misconduct and incapacity; financial disclosures; and transfers on secondment and deployment.

The introduction of a single Public Service has implications for the current bargaining arrangements. The three spheres of government currently have separate collective bargaining systems and labour relations arrangements. A move towards the realisation of a single Public Service calls for the integration and alignment of relevant arrangements and procedures for the existing labour relations issues.

In conclusion, let me say that the NCOP has a distinctly important role to play in the realisation of appropriate and improved constitutionally aligned intergovernmental relations through the mechanism of a single Public Service. The opportunity to discuss this and to take this matter forward when the Bill is reintroduced in Parliament will present itself again at the end of this year. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Mr M J ZWANE (Free State): Deputy Chair of the National Council of Provinces, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers, hon Premier of the Northern Cape, hon MECs who are here today, hon members, distinguished guests, friends, ladies and gentlemen, we feel honoured to meet today under the theme “The role of the National Council of Provinces in co-operative government and intergovernmental relations: Unlocking the synergy for collective effort.” It is an opportunity to reflect on our current performance and opportunities lying ahead.

The National Council of Provinces is the creation of our Constitution as one of the two Houses, allowing equal provincial representation to ensure a balance of interest between provinces. The Constitution went further and created three spheres of government, namely national, provincial and local government, and clearly directed that all spheres must operate in an intergovernmental and co-operative manner.

Since its establishment, the NCOP has continued to perform well in executing its mandate and function with regard to national and provincial Bills, annual Appropriation Bills and budgets. Allow me to provide the House with the executive summary of the state of performance in our province with regard to service delivery and local government. Access to water is at 97%; sanitation, 69%; electricity, 87%; and access to refuse removal, 76%.

With regard to the state of local government, our assessment is in line with the recent state of local government assessment report, and the following points are highlighted. We are faced with serious leadership and governance challenges, including weak responsiveness and accountability to communities; weak financial management; high levels of indigent households affecting the financial position of municipalities; insufficient technical capacity to fast-track infrastructural projects; and limited financial support from provincial government to municipalities.

Deputy Chairperson, in line with the national developmental priorities as outlined by our President, our premier tabled the provincial state of the province address with clear outcomes for each sector department, and was later followed by the MEC for finance, who tabled our provincial budget, which is linked to our outcomes.

The National Council of Provinces is a collective voice of the people to ensure that service delivery promises are achieved within the allocated time and budgets. The NCOP has a role to play in highlighting required interventions and interprovincial co-operation to achieve the national priorities.

It can also serve as a platform of performance appraisal for provinces and local government, a platform for communicating service delivery achievements and challenges. It can also play a role of intervention with regard to resource allocation and reallocation where necessary.

In conclusion, in achieving its enhanced role the NCOP must consider improving on its interaction with provinces and local government by adopting a more proactive role. I will also suggest that the NCOP should facilitate and create performance monitoring sessions for the provinces and local governments on a quarterly and biannual basis.

The provinces and local government must come and present their achievements, challenges and required interventions. The National Council of Provinces must also have more regular provincial visits to get a sense of what is being done in provinces and by local government.

I am sure that by creating the above enhanced role for the National Council of Provinces, we will be able to unlock the synergy for collective effort on intergovernmental performance and co-operation on resource allocation, leading to the creation of a better legislative framework. I thank you.

Prince M M M ZULU: Deputy Chairperson, hon members and hon Ministers …

… kubahlonishwa bonke abakhona kule Ndlu, ngimi lapha nokuziqhenya ngokuthi uMkhandlu kaZwelonke weziFundazwe unendima ebonakalayo okufuneka uyidlale ekuhlanganiseni izinhlaka zikahulumeni nohulumeni wokubambisana kanye nobudlelwano kohulumeni.

Lokho kwenza ukuthi le Ndlu ikwazi ukuthatha olapha emakhaya, phansi komasipala basekhaya kanye nohulumeni wesifundazwe ukuba kuzoxoxwa ngakho ezingeni likaZwelonke. Sibhalisa ukubhekwa omasipala bonke kuzifundazwe noma ukubhekwa komasipala ngamunye komasipala basekhaya. Lokhu kukodwa kusinikeza umthwalo ukuba siqikelele ukuthi sibheke lokhu okungenziwa yizifundazwe nomasipala ukuthi kuyenzeka nakuhulumeni omkhulu. Sikubheke ukuthi oNgqongqoshe bayakwazi ukuba bachaze ukuthi izinto zenzeke kanjani ezweni lakithi.

Le Ndlu ngiyayincoma ngokuba yizwi labantu. Isakhamuzi sakithi esingakwazi ukuzokhuluma sime la ngimi khona, le Ndlu iyakwazi ukuba ithathe iPhalamende iliyise ebantwini ukuba babeke izimvo zabo. Bagxeke noma bancome ngokwenziwe nguhulumeni. Impumelelo yezwe lakithi iyobonakala uma leli Phalamende likwazi ukulalela izimvo zabantu. Sikwazi nathi ukuba khona ezintweni ezenziwa oNgqongqoshe, ngikubeka ngokucacile ukuthi kuzo zonke izifundazwe eziyisishagalolunye akukho nowodwa uMnyango kahulumeni okumele ubabukele phansi omasipala kumele kusetshenzwe njengohulumeni obumbene sikwazi ukuthi izidingo zabantu zifezeke.

Sengiphetha ngiphatheka kabi ngenxa yokuthi uNgqongqoshe Wezemisebenzi Yomphakathi usehambile kodwa ngifisa ukuthi omasipala abangazilawuli bese beqasha abantu ngendlela engafanele ngoba kulo lonke lezwe sikhala ngokuthi omasipala baqasha abantu ezindaweni ezingafanele.

Ikhomishana Yezemisebenzi Yomphakathi kufanele idlale indima ebalulekile ekuhleleni ukuthi izinto kufanele zihambe kanjani. Uma kwenzeka kufanele siwuvakashele Umthethosisekelo sibheke ukuthi uthini ngezikhungo zezaHluko 9, ngoba zikhona kwizifundazwe kodwa azichazi ukuthi izinto zenzeka kanjani kwizifundazwe, zichaza kuMkhandlu kaZwelonke weziFundazwe. Noma nje lezi zinto zingiphathisa ngekhanda njengendoda yakwaZulu. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[… to all the hon members who are present in this House, I am standing here with great pride in knowing that the National Council of Provinces has a major role to play in uniting the spheres of government in co-operative governance, as well as bringing about good relations in the spheres of government.

This House makes it possible for someone who serves at a municipal level and someone at provincial level to come to talk about their issues at the national level. We record the monitoring of all the municipalities or each municipality in the provinces. This ensures that what cannot be done by provincial governments or municipalities is done by national government. It also ensures that Ministers are able to account for what is done in our country.

I commend this House for it is the people’s voice. If a citizen cannot come and stand where I am standing and speak for him or herself, this House is able to take Parliament to the people where they are able to air their views. They can either criticise or commend the government on what it has done. The success of our country will be seen if this Parliament is able to listen to the views of the people. We, as members, must also be informed of what the Ministers are doing, and I want to put it very clearly that in all the nine provinces not even one government department should look down upon the municipalities, because we need to work as a united government in order to meet the people’s needs.

In conclusion, although I regret saying it when the Minister of Public Works has already left, I want to say that municipalities should not control themselves with regard to the appointment of people, because their appointing processes are inappropriate as the whole country is complaining about municipalities which are appointing unqualified people to certain positions.

The commission for Public Works must play a significant role in planning how things should be done. If necessary, we need to consult the Constitution to find out what it says about Chapter 9 institutions, because they are there in the provinces but they don’t explain how things are done in the provinces; they only explain how the National Council of Provinces should operate. These things give me a headache as a Zulu man. Thank you.]

Mr M H MOKGOBI: Chairperson, Minister and Deputy Ministers, premier, MEC and respective leaders of our provinces, the Deputy President of the Republic, when addressing the NCOP last year, guided us by saying:

As government, we have long recognised the imperative value of partnerships across all fronts. What needs to be emphasised, however, is the need to ensure that we use partnerships to maximum advantage, such as in addressing service delivery challenges.

Achievement of government Programme of Action goals assumes exactly that our efforts are well co-ordinated across the three spheres of government, consciously driven by common imperatives.

An activist NCOP is one that ensures through its oversight and legislative role that there is a speedy roll-out of basic services to the people by passing appropriate legislation that speaks directly to the needs of our people. It further ensures this through oversight work, working with the executive and ensuring that they execute both their constitutional and political mandates to better the lives of our people.

In the effort of today’s debate, we want to emphasise a point that is missing. At the level of the executive, there are, indeed, intergovernmental relations, IGR, structures. At the level of legislatures and Parliament there is that legislation, but there is a need to debate in order to make all these IGR structures better co-ordinated and better strengthened to avoid them being a talk show.

The NCOP should be a forum where battles of ideas take place between parties, as any party can talk the way it likes. And also, parties should be guided correctly by their ideological and theoretical focus in implementing and advancing the objectives of the Fourth Parliament.

The main challenge facing our party, the ANC, in the second decade of freedom is how then do we deepen this debate within the context of a national democratic revolution in order for us to create more jobs and decent work, emphasise the eradication of poverty and unemployment, and accelerate programmes to improve the lives of black people.

This debate is not lost, as other parties think it is. It is in a developmental state where we say moving forward is a dynamic process. If our state was a conservative state, yes, we would be locked in one place; we would be static! But because it is developmental, we need to continue to debate to see how we strengthen co-operative governance and the IGR structures.

This would be done to ensure that participation of the people is clear in what it is that they need. And their needs must find expression in the planning – and our planning is not ordinary planning; it is integrated planning.

Since it is integrated planning, it means there is a need for a serious co- ordination of the plans, and the plans can only be well co-ordinated if the intergovernmental framework is well applied everywhere, wherever we are within our three spheres of government.

The three spheres mean that the structures are not separate. You have a national, provincial and local structure. It’s like a person - a complete human being - where you have a head, a body and legs. In this context, the legs could be defined as local government. Therefore, they implement or run the programme of both the provincial and the national government. It says: continue to debate and strengthen what you are supposed to be doing!

Ready to Govern and the Reconstruction and Development Programme, RDP, emphasised the need for an integrated approach to governance and accountability for accelerated service delivery. This implies strengthening oversight work by Parliament and legislatures.

The ANC’s strategic objective is to promote the transformation of South Africa into a united, democratic, nonracial and nonsexist country. In order to achieve these objectives, the ANC government needs to advance service delivery as it is done in nine provinces; not in eight provinces, in nine provinces – those are the achievements of the ANC government in this country. But the emphasis is that those achievements must not be based on racial or ethnic lines. They should address the spatial legacy that has been left or that we have inherited as a compromise, precisely because we should not forget where we are, fighting the challenges of service delivery.

In sunset clause we said, “We go on with this situation; when we are in Parliament we will address this depth of apartheid, and these are social depths of apartheid.” Therefore, there is no time or party that can be blamed, precisely because we are doing what has been left by some of them.

The ANC is committed to the principle and practice of bringing government closer to the people to ensure popular participation in government. What we are here for, in summary, is Chapter 3 of the Constitution, as I have learnt it. However, you still have to contend with the three arms of our state, between which there is a separation of powers.

Many people confuse this with having, federal states. Separation of powers simply refers to legislative, executive and judiciary matters, only in that context. The three spheres of government say: Come together, integrate, and move like a stream towards bettering the lives of the people in this country.

The other issue that needs to be emphasised in co-operative governance and IGR is how we should follow the decisions that are taken at IGR level, because they are there. As I said, we have the President’s Co-ordinating Council, PCC, Ministers, MECs, districts, mayors’ forums and all sorts of things – where the provincial and national seek to support these municipalities.

What is prevailing is that the debates are held, decisions are taken, but after the meeting, after catering, no one makes a follow-up on those decisions. How then do we follow up on decisions in order to strengthen and implement the outputs of the IGR? I think that is the debate that we need to undertake, moving forward.

So, once that has been undertaken, there will be a way in which there will be monitoring and a follow-up on the decisions. This way will also minimise the application of section 139 across the country. The challenges of this application will be detected in time at the IGR level and proper intervention will be done. If there is no such thing, you will always see section 139 interventions.

As you try to check prior to the application, you will find that there was a meeting, but there were no follow-ups. One other thing is that national government must provide resources to provinces, so that when the provinces intervene in section 139, there are resources to address that chronic problem within our state.

The Ready to Govern document says that ”democratic local government should facilitate creation of a strong civil society”.

The impression is that you want to take people to be part of your governance, because if you have a strong civil society that guides your planning, and whatever is done in your government, people will move with you.

And if there is that type of civil society that understands, after planning has been done, then we need to go back, in that spirit to say: In terms of your needs, you said you want a temple on top of the mountain; we can’t afford that. What we are going to do is to bring a pipe of water to ward so and so. Own it as a community, as a village and as a municipality. This is one thing that is lacking, in our view, in terms of intergovernmental outputs in our country.

Municipalities across the country have been involved in protracted, difficult and challenging transitional processes over the past years. This has further been compounded by a redemarcation issue, after involving each and every municipality.

In conclusion, the ANC will be going to the national general council next month. Amongst many things that will be debated there - which will be taken forward, which other parties should also do - is that we need to review the division of revenue. [Applause.] [Time expired.]

Mr K PELELE (North West): Chairperson, Ministers and Deputy Ministers present here, premiers, hon Members of the NCOP, ladies and gentlemen, allow me to express my profound delight at the North West province being given an opportunity to address this august House. It is said that the world has become a global village and my understanding of that is that the world has become inextricably interwoven to the point that, when a far away country sneezes, other countries catch a cold.

It is further said that no man is an island. Allow me to make another inference: No province, no department, no sphere is an island. History has constantly taught us that co-operation, and not competition, is the way forward. What intergovernmental relations underscore is that indispensable link that is present between government entities, spheres or departments. And that link enables those entities or spheres to pursue those common but different objectives of social, economic and political development to accomplish the national democratic revolution.

It is significant to understand the underlying assumption about the legislative process and its impact on society. When we talk about unlocking the synergy for collective effort, we mean having that fundamental appreciation of the law-making process, a discourse that is all-inclusive and takes into consideration the overwhelming interests of the public.

The law is not by definition a product independent from society, but a product of society. So, in order to unlock the synergy, or that key, it is imperative to define what role each player will assume and consequently what the expected outcomes are. It is therefore reasonable to expect that co-ordination and co-operation should be our modus operandi. To put it simply, we have seen anecdotal evidence that suggests that if we work together we can succeed, because working together we can do more.

Hon Chairperson, ladies and gentlemen, it is not beyond us to chart a different course by utilising our institutional mechanisms and our engineering ability to promote transparent and accountable governance. Our Constitution in Chapter 3 provides for how that institutional framework ought to function. Co-operative governance is essential as a way to foster institutional capacity and sustainability.

The framers of the Constitution intended our system of government not to be federal, but unitary in its objective - a quasi-federal system in implementation to speed up service delivery. Understanding local needs in policy formulation, whether it is by statute or just by policy, is paramount. That is precisely what intergovernmental relations seek to accomplish. For example, if you read section 41(1)(g) and (h)(i), (ii) and (iii), it says that:

all spheres of government and all organs of state within each sphere must exercise their powers and perform their functions in a manner that does not encroach on the geographical, functional or institutional integrity of government in another sphere; and co-operate with one another in mutual trust and good faith by fostering friendly relations; assisting and supporting one another; and informing one another of, and consulting one another on, matters of common interest.

The ingenious nature of this arrangement is that it opens up space for a government that works, taking into consideration local needs while advancing the common agenda of building sustainable economic development that will benefit all.

The delegation model of the NCOP as enshrined in the Constitution guarantees the effective and efficient running of government by ensuring that the legislative arm in the national government remains in touch with the needs of the people across all the provinces. It seeks to promote diversity and preserve cultural differences via a national platform. It captures the essence of a nation seen through a rainbow.

We are a nation of people who migrated southwards looking for a better future and when we reached that southern point we stopped and settled. We were met by other forces which attempted to obliterate us, but because of that spirit of love we remained steadfast in our belief in the fundamental nature of humans. We indeed remain committed to that principle embodied by the former statesman Nelson Mandela who when he came out of prison, explicitly implied that “you must do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” Today we are living out that principle, albeit with some imperfections. The manifestation of that can be witnessed in the sporadic conflicts that have their root cause in our distant past.

Chairperson, as I conclude, our model of governance has defied observers, because I believe that the genius of our model is in our history. It captures the aspirations of a nation determined never to go back to the dark past when humanity was unaware of that greatest common denominator that binds us and implores us to remember that we have more in common than we are different. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Chairperson of the NCOP the hon M J Mahlangu, fellow members of the executive, Deputy Minister Carrim, Premier Jenkins, members of the executive councils, members of the National Council of Provinces and provincial legislatures, ladies and gentlemen, it was during the policy debates in May this year that we spoke in this House of the importance of hosting a debate on how best we can further support and strengthen the role of the NCOP in terms of co-operative governance and intergovernmental relations, in order for us all to achieve our objectives.

I would therefore like to thank this House and the hon Chairperson for making this much-needed debate a reality. Hon members, without a doubt we, as government, have a clear understanding of the mandate we have been given through the results of the 2009 national government elections, as to the expectations that the South African electorate have of us. This responsibility we carry speaks to the need to ensure that in our work across all spheres of government we are always conscious of improving the functions of government to ensure maximum quality outputs in service delivery.

The need for our work to have a greater impact is further highlighted by the outcomes-based approach of President Zuma’s administration, where each national government Minister has signed a performance agreement based on a number of government outcomes, relevant to the particular national department.

In the case of the national Minister of Public Works, and in turn the department, our commitment to the President is based on achieving the following outcomes: creating decent employment through inclusive economic growth; ensuring an efficient and effective development-orientated Public Service and an empowered and inclusive citizenship; and, lastly, achieving sustainable human settlements and an improved quality of household life. The achievement of these outcomes therefore depends on ensuring that there is proper alignment between the different spheres of government and in an effort to attain national socioeconomic goals for the benefit of South Africans, wherever they may be located. Key structures where Ministers meet their provincial counterparts, such as Minmec, ensure that the national and provincial spheres of government align their objectives to work as one in the achievement of the outcomes as agreed to by the national Ministers with the President.

Chairperson, it is therefore imperative that if we are to speak of ways in which we can ensure effective delivery by government or how we unlock synergy for collective effort, we use as a basis the rock which remains the birth certificate, founding document and pillar of the existence of this House, our government and our country as a whole. I think, hon Mokgobi, you are quite correct. It is a pity that the hon Harris wasn’t here to listen to your political lecture, because I think hon Harris is a bit young. The federalism debate took place long before he had considered entering politics, and those that were promoting the federalism debate hardly have a presence in politics today; so be careful. Your easy victories might be short-lived. [Applause.] In this regard, it is the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa of 1996 which is the supreme law of the Republic. Law or conduct inconsistent with it is invalid and the obligations imposed by it must be fulfilled. The ANC stands by this.

Hon members, in the case of the national Department of Public Works, I would like to reflect on the mandate of the department, as spelled out by the Constitution. In its description of the mandate of the Department of Public Works, Schedule 4 of the Constitution speaks of the Department of Public Works as having functional areas of concurrent national and provincial legislative competence. It is the only department that is referred to in Schedule 4 as such. This does not apply to any other national department that has concurrent functions with the province. Section 40 of the Constitution speaks of how these functions should also be understood within the context of the basic principles of co-operative governance and intergovernmental relations, at a national, provincial and local sphere of government. These are distinct, interdependent and interrelated.

Hon members, it is, however, important that we qualify the Constitution’s description of the mandate of Public Works. Our functioning is not the same compared as other national departments in relation to the provincial spheres of government. For instance, in the debate we had here in May, the issue was raised about schools, provincial roads, clinics, hospitals and housing. That is not the mandate of the national Department of Public Works. However, when it comes to the Expanded Public Works Programme, we are the co-ordinating department of what happens at provincial and local government levels.

It is our view that the interdependence and interrelatedness, in ordinary terms, point to the fact that actions or omissions in any of the spheres affect or impact on others, and vice versa. Since coming into office I have seen how the public’s – and not only that of the public but also our own – somewhat limited understanding of the different roles of the Department of Public Works has impacted on the message we send out and caused further confusion. Examples of this include numerous complaints and comments that we receive via the talk-to-the-Minister e-mails where, on a daily basis, we receive correspondence from members of the public on Public Works-related matters, where the majority relate to a provincial or local government competency. A number of these complaints, have to do with the construction and maintenance of roads, which, in terms of the prescripts of the Constitution, do not fall within the mandate of the national Department of Public Works, but rather within that of the provincial or local government. This presents us with an opportunity to look at ways in which we can, whilst respecting the Constitution, find ways in which we can collectively, as government, put in place mechanisms where, irrespective of the complaint or provision of service in terms of our respective competencies, be able to assist each other in responding to the concerns of South Africans.

Crucially, provinces follow their own budgetary processes in their respective provincial legislatures. They further table their own strategic plans, annual reports and other reports to the legislatures.

As we reflect on the role of the NCOP in terms of co-operative government and intergovernmental relations, it is this House, the NCOP, which brings the business of national, provincial and local government together. It has the potential to unlock the synergy of our collective efforts. The unique role of the NCOP, that of bringing together the three spheres, could enable the identification of blockages to service delivery, so that we improve the lives of our people.

Hon members, for the purposes of this debate I would like to highlight, in particular, portions of the Constitution relevant to section 41, which speaks to the need for all spheres of government to co-operate with one another in mutual trust and good faith, by fostering friendly relations, assisting and supporting one another, informing one another of, and consulting one another on, matters of common interest, as well as co- ordinating their actions and legislation with one another.

A proper understanding of Public Works does indicate that the Minister and the department have wide constitutional executive mandates that should not be confined to narrowly conceived national or provincial legislation on Public Works. The broader constitutional interdependence and interrelatedness of government departments at national level and between the three spheres of government provide the proper contextual understanding of concurrent competence at legislative and executive levels.

It is critical that government Ministers, Members of Parliament, MECs, members of provincial legislatures, mayors and councillors have regular productive forums at which to discuss and find concrete deliverable ways in which we can improve service delivery to our people. It is through these platforms that I believe we will be able to find synergy and resonance in terms of fulfilling our mandate to the South African electorate as a whole.

I am certain that we all share the view that it is only with our reflection on these principles and through our own conscience that we will be able to foster closer ties and relations between the various spheres of government, which will allow us to be more effective as a government. I refer to our conscience so as to highlight the importance and responsibility we have in ensuring that our work is done in line with the founding principles of a democratic South Africa. This, I believe, is one way in which we can unlock the synergy for collective effort and ensure that we remain committed, and I quote from President Zuma, to “working together to speed up economic growth and transform the economy to create decent work and sustainable livelihoods”.

In conclusion, the central message I would like to reinforce is that we must demystify the functions of Public Works at national and provincial levels. This can be done through our thoroughly interrogating Chapter 4 of the Constitution and ensuring that we properly understand what it says and agree that the outline of the concurrent functions of government does best serve us in terms of our provision of service to our people.

Hon members, for us to unlock synergy for collective effort, it is imperative that we utilise the principles of the legislative framework as set out in our founding document, which govern our existence as spheres of government. These principles compel us to work together, instead of in silos, to ensure quality service provision to our people. I thank you very much. [Applause.]

Mr A W BREDELL (Western Cape): Hon Chairperson of the NCOP, hon premier, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers, hon members of the NCOP, ladies and gentlemen, I appreciate the opportunity to be able to appear before this esteemed House for the first time since taking office and to participate in this very important debate, not only because of its topic, but also because of its timing, given the looming local government elections.

Local government is, of all government spheres, the closest to the people. It is the first contact for service delivery to our communities and it plays a key role in ensuring that our communities receive the services they have the right to.

The NCOP serves as a bridge between national, provincial and local government. The Council is a linking mechanism which aligns national, provincial and local interests in national legislation, policies and planning processes, specifically those that may affect these spheres.

In the same breath, it is the department of local government that is the bridge or linking mechanism for local municipalities to provincial and, in many instances, national government.

I believe that through local government processes, oversight and support, provincial and national government can be sensitised to local government interests and needs when developing their policies, legislation and planning programmes.

It is therefore the responsibility of my department to ensure that our local municipalities are fully supported and to make certain that there is proper functioning, responsiveness and accountability within these institutions. This mandate can only be achieved through co-operation between the spheres of government, commitment to good governance and strong intergovernmental relations.

In line with the above statement, our overarching goal is to ensure that our municipalities function efficiently and effectively, and that they are accountable.

In the Western Cape our political environment is quite unique. Our municipalities are governed by coalitions which, in many instances, have an impact on administration but are a reflection of the level of maturity of our democracy.

Within this environment we have, however, successfully been able to foster and maintain strong intergovernmental relations across the province, which has enabled us to collectively resolve and effectively address any challenges. Many stakeholders participate in these structures and are afforded the opportunity to express themselves, a case in point being the SA Local Government Association, Salga, and the Development Bank of Southern Africa, DBSA.

Another area which highlights the level of co-operative governance within this province has been that of service delivery. One key responsibility we share with the NCOP is that of ensuring that service delivery and the quality thereof is not compromised. This is done through the oversight work we do in assessing integrated development plans, IDP’s, and local government budgets.

The Western Cape departments of local government and treasury have, together, for the past couple of years held local government medium-term expenditure committees, LGMTECs, and this year these processes have evolved to become IDP indabas, which seek to promote intergovernmental planning and budgeting.

The key outcome of the IDP indaba will be to provide a space for joint planning between spheres of government, where engagements will focus mainly on current development realities within municipalities.

Furthermore, government will be able to reach a mutual agreement on what the development priorities are within each of the 30 municipalities and on future investment of government per municipality.

I want to emphasise that our provincial government takes very seriously the responsibility both the NCOP and local government have, as stipulated in section 106 of the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act, Act 32 of 2000 which, in a nutshell, promotes good governance and mandates both the MEC for local government and the NCOP to act in the event of maladministration within a municipality.

In promoting participatory democracy, there are synergies in the work done by the NCOP and that of the province, in that, while the NCOP has the responsibility to facilitate public participation in terms of section 72(1) of the Constitution, the department has committed itself to unlocking opportunities for communities through improved access and active participation.

Strong emphasis has been placed on active citizen participation in local government through ward-based planning. Furthermore, through the community development worker, CDW, programmes, the institutional gaps in service delivery are addressed and investment programmes of government with a specific focus on poor and vulnerable communities are being implemented. There is a strong correlation between these two custodians of co-operative governance and intergovernmental relations, and yet they have distinct roles and responsibilities, which are clearly defined by the Constitution and applicable legislation.

It is imperative to understand that these roles and responsibilities complement each other. For example, in matters of socioeconomic development there may be great overlap, where local government shares its legislative power with both the national and the provincial governments and may oversee a similar matter. However, the way that municipalities exercise their power is key.

It is against this background that it becomes clear that unlocking the synergies through co-operative governance is a non-negotiable imperative. It is only through the collective effort of government that integrated planning, budgeting and implementation can effectively accelerate service delivery.

In conclusion, intergovernmental relations are key for a successful province and a successful South Africa, but we must also focus on interdepartmental relationships, otherwise we are going to stay and work within our silos. To get out of our silos, the Western Cape has decided to make use of our strategic objectives to align all the departments to work towards a common goal. I thank you.

The PREMIER OF THE NORTHERN CAPE (Ms H G Jenkins): Chairperson, Chairperson of the NCOP, Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP, Deputy Minister Carrim, hon members of the NCOP, hon MECs, representatives of the SA Local Government Association, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, on behalf the Northern Cape provincial government, I would like to convey our best wishes and sincere appreciation to the NCOP for its continued support in ensuring that provinces carry out their mandate to the best of their abilities.

Our relatively new administration, under the custodianship of President Jacob Zuma, is convinced that through effective co-ordination across government as a whole, and acting in harmony with communities, we can accelerate service delivery and sustainable development. Hosting the 2010 Fifa World Cup is an example of co-operative governance and intergovernmental relations in action.

We established the framework for intergovernmental relations which provides ways for all spheres to work together effectively. The three spheres of government need to work in partnership and constantly communicate with each other, so that each sphere is aware of its roles and responsibilities in driving provincial priorities and ensuring that local needs are considered in line with national and provincial law-making processes.

Intergovernmental relations are intended to promote and facilitate co- operative decision-making and ensure that policies, activities and programmes encourage service delivery across all spheres of government to meet the needs of the citizens in an effective way.

For us to achieve our vision of a caring, responsive, people-centred and people-driven government, it is essential for all spheres to work in harmony with each other. We must work together to achieve our goal of effective service delivery to our communities in terms of poverty eradication, good governance, enhancing social integration and promoting the advancement of women, which remains among the key priorities in our programme for decisive action and change.

Of critical importance is the ongoing need to strengthen partnerships between national government, provincial government and local government as well as our communities and civil society. We need to ensure that communities and other development partners are mobilised to partner with municipalities in service delivery and development.

Various challenges, especially the poor revenue base of the majority of the municipalities in the Northern Cape, have negatively affected the capacity and performance of our municipalities to deliver services effectively to our communities who interact directly with them on a regular basis.

It is for this reason that all spheres of government must play a distinct and proactive role in the process of socioeconomic development, with a special focus on our province’s rural population, in terms of their maintaining sustainable livelihoods. Through sustained efforts our system of co-operative government has made impressive progress in various segments of our economy, particularly in tourism, infrastructure development, agriculture and rural development.

The Northern Cape province has prioritised the important issue of co- operative governance and intergovernmental relations. We have committed ourselves to ensure that systems, structures and procedures are developed and enforced to deal with challenges and to ensure that provinces and municipalities communicate and account more to communities. We have also worked around the clock to ensure that the core administrative and institutional systems are in place and are operational to improve performance.

Through co-operative governance and intergovernmental relations we will ensure that our municipalities are able to attend effectively to the matter of quality service delivery in a manner that continues to improve the lives of all our people. Local government is thus the focal point of delivery of all government services.

Ladies and gentlemen, I am pleased to advise that our executive council, together with municipalities in the province, has embarked on an interactive programme with communities, which is termed the executive council, or Exco, outreach programme. In essence, this programme is characterised by intense and meaningful engagement with communities to determine their needs, particularly from a service delivery perspective. Although certain challenges remain, we are, by all accounts, convinced that we are gradually making the necessary inroads in addressing the needs of communities.

This strategy is designed to ensure that municipalities meet the basic needs of communities. This implies that an environment is created, support provided and systems built to accelerate quality service delivery within the context of each municipality’s specific conditions and needs.

As South Africans we are indeed a unique breed of people, for we have pioneered a system of co-operative governance underpinned by democratic norms and values. In a short space of time we have made progressive strides in giving meaning to our co-operative model of governance, based on our constitutional imperative for co-operation between the spheres of government.

This constitutional imperative therefore calls on the respective spheres to assist and support each other in order to protect the wellbeing of our country, by providing a government that is both transparent and accountable to the people. Indeed, we have formalised and put structures in place with specific focus areas and objectives, outlined in the policy and legislative framework. Be that as it may, our system of co-operative government needs re-evaluation to ensure greater efficiency.

One of the critical factors that must be addressed in the enhancement of this system is the principle of accountability. In my home province, the Northern Cape, as in all other provinces, we have intergovernmental structures that interact and operate on a so-called gentleman’s agreement, in the absence of a legal framework. Attendance of meetings is not obligatory and this has a negative impact regarding the content and quality of debate and discussion.

In conclusion, since the promulgation of the Intergovernmental Relations Framework Act on 13 August 2005, we have, on a government-wide basis, established formal structures with specific focus areas and objectives. However, the following questions remain: Firstly, how many of these are in sync with the aims and vision of the IGR Act?

Secondly, do we need a more rationalised and strategic IGR and co-operative governance approach?

Thirdly, is the substance of the current IGR engagements adequate and in the best interests of the people we serve?

Lastly, how does contestation between spheres of government, government departments and organs of state undermine the letter and spirit of co- operative governance?

While we are proud of our system of co-operative governance and intergovernmental relations, much more work needs to be done to synchronise the planning and delivery cycles of the three spheres of government. What is also needed is a simpler and more effective IGR approach to accelerate our developmental objectives to ensure a degree of coherence in the intergovernmental arena. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, let me start by bringing greetings from the president of Cope, president Lekota, to all of you. Chapter 3 of our Constitution sets out the principles of co-operative governance in section

1. I can see when I mention the President of Cope, people are getting hot. That is the President of Cope.

All spheres of government must, however, observe and adhere to the principles of Chapter 3 and must conduct their activities within the parameters that the Chapter provides. All in all, the intention of government has been very good. The problem is implementation. Let us admit that there is a problem. Cope has identified what the problem is, and it is that one hand does not know what the other is doing.

This is a serious problem for service delivery. Our Chairperson, tata [father] Mahlangu, has just mentioned an example of a project in the Free State. If you are screaming, you are screaming and saying that tata [father] Mahlangu is not talking the truth.

On the side of implementation, government, by its own acknowledgement, has been failing very badly. The President’s recent unannounced visit to Sweetwater left a bitter taste in his mouth. The fact that an interministerial committee on corruption has been established and the Special Investigating Unit, SIU, has been asked by the President to investigate seven departments or entities is a sad outcome.

Many don’t know what they are required to do and many steal what they are supposed to protect. Corruption is a cancer in all spheres of government. All the alliance partners, like the SA Communist Party, SACP, are competing in challenging each other to come clean. The SACP introduced the term “tenderpreneur”.

Comrade Vavi went so far as to mention two Ministers, and Cosatu called for a lifestyle audit. Some premiers, MECs and mayors are also being mentioned. The list is long. You can call it whatever you want, but corruption is a cancer. Every day it is in the media, which holds the executive to account while we, who have been given a constitutional mandate, hardly ever do so. When last did we ever really subject a Minister to proper scrutiny? Cope is offering very good solutions. The problem is that people and the executive are not doing what they are supposed to do. Let me mention an example in the debate here. The executive, provincial legislature and local government are under one roof. I can say without any doubt that I have seen the passion in the Chairperson of this NCOP, Mr Mahlangu, who is trying very hard to make this House work. I want to congratulate him. He is very passionate. Cope will always support him in the work that he is doing. [Interjections.] You can get angry. [Time expired.]

Ms G N SWARTBOOI (KwaZulu-Natal): Deputy Chairperson, let me kick off by first apologising for my colleague, MEC for co-operative governance and traditional affairs in KwaZulu-Natal, Ms N Dube. She wanted to be here but, due to commitments, she could not make it.

The President of this country, hon J G Zuma, at the beginning of this year emphasised that this year is the year of the programme of action. This debate offers us a welcome opportunity to deliberate on strategies that will sharpen and unleash the full potential of our government delivery machinery in order to breathe life into the injunction of our Constitution to create a nonracial, nonsexist, democratic and prosperous society.

The constitutional system of governance in our country is one of co- operative governance in which the powers of important functional areas are located concurrently in the different spheres of government. Adopting this system of governance was indeed a remarkable accomplishment of the new South Africa and a sound policy choice, as opposed to the competitive federal system which was favoured by a few. This choice, therefore, cemented co-operative governance as a cornerstone principle of our democratic dispensation.

Whilst one acknowledges that a lot has been done to institutionalise co- operative governance through a framework of intergovernmental relations, the reality, however, is that there is a pressing need to ensure that we move beyond the legislative pronouncements. We also need to ensure that what is envisaged in our Constitution and legislation finds practical expression on the ground by changing the lives of our people for the better.

We are still experiencing poor co-ordination and accountability within the different spheres of government. This has resulted, in some cases, in communities picketing and toyi-toying to show their dissatisfaction with the level of provision of services and sustainable development opportunities. Most of the communities are in the Western Cape. Clearly, this talks to the need to improve the entire government delivery chain by ensuring better accountability and co-ordination. This includes planning, budgeting, implementation, support, monitoring and reporting, all supported by a stronger oversight by the legislatures.

Intergovernmental co-operation lies at the core of the success or failure of our system of co-operative governance. It is our humble submission that the NCOP, by virtue of being the only House that is endowed with the wisdom of public representatives from all the different spheres of government, should play a pivotal role in ensuring that the executive and the government unlock the synergy for collective delivery by promoting and enhancing our system of co-operative governance.

We thank the NCOP for visiting KZN where we, together with them, visited a number of municipalities. We also took Parliament to the people and strengthened public participation. We hope that a similar programme is extended to all provinces, as this has a valuable impact.

The introduction of the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, and the assignment of a new mandate to it, is one sure effort by government aimed at encouraging integrated delivery and doing away with the silo mentality in government. We as legislators have a duty to play an effective oversight role in monitoring whether co-operative governance is happening in practice across the spheres of government.

Being a body of legislators, there are challenges that we must deal with and we must analyse whether they need legislative tightening. Among these are the different standards and oversight mechanisms that apply to the various spheres of government. Yesterday a question was asked about the Public Service Commission. The point that was raised was that whereas this body plays its role with regard to the conduct of provincial and national public servants, there is no such body at the local level. What implication does the absence of this body at the local government level have in promoting the values within the Public Service as enshrined in section 195 of the Constitution?

One of the important issues that we have to deal with is the intergovernmental relations fiscal formula, in particular the need to ensure equity when allocations are made so that they take into account the delivery conditions on the ground. There is a disjuncture in this area because rural municipalities and provinces are granted revenue which does not accommodate topography and the amount that they have to spend travelling to their communities to deliver services.

The allocation of the municipal infrastructure grant, MIG, to municipalities does not include maintenance. Municipalities keep on building and building, but there is no money for maintenance. They also have to commit themselves to using 100% of their MIG in each financial year. When we deal with the appropriation Bills we must address this as it has a serious impact on the intergovernmental fiscal relations issue. Together with the NCOP we must ensure that there is an equilibrium in financial relations among the spheres of government.

To promote co-operative governance and intergovernmental relations in KwaZulu-Natal we have established 10 district intergovernmental forums. We have also established the municipal legal forum, which engages legal practitioners in all municipalities; the peer networking forum, which engages with all municipal managers in the province; and a synergistic partnership forum between the district municipality and the local house of traditional leaders to deal with service delivery matters of mutual concern to both institutions.

The government has made a concerted effort to improve intergovernmental relations with the implementation of various policies and frameworks. These positive developments, however, are hampered by a number of challenges originating from the national sphere of government. In the provinces and local municipalities or governments we have departments that have national competence like, for example, Home Affairs. When people have problems with identity documents, IDs, land or water, they go to local government or provincial government. These issues should be taken into consideration. For instance, it is unfair for the community of Umkhanyakude District Municipality not to have water when they have a big dam known as Jozini in their area.

With regard to the so-called unfunded mandates, the approach in implementing the community development worker programme, for example, gave rise to unnecessary tensions between councillors and community development workers, CDWs, and confusion in respect of functions, roles and responsibilities. In addition, once implemented the responsibility for funding the programme was devolved to the provincial department responsible for local government, without providing for the associated financial obligations.

Again, without arguing the necessity of the occupation-specific dispensation, OSD, this is a measure developed and implemented by the Department of Public Service and Administration, DPSA. There is an enormous impact on the finances of many provincial departments which have to reprioritise their budgets and curtail service delivery projects.

Again, proper planning, consultation and alignment of fiscal resources could have avoided these negative impacts. Municipalities even have to fund libraries, museums and some aspects of environmental health functions. These functions should either be assigned to the local sphere, with accompanying funding, or should be taken up by the relevant responsible departments.

Our recommendations are as follows. A review of the planning and budgeting cycles across the spheres of government is required and must lead to key legislative amendments relating to local government and a restructuring of the fiscal system. There is clearly a need to establish a co-ordinated system for planning, budgeting, implementation, monitoring and reporting, and the system must be outcomes-focused as alluded to by hon Mahlangu. There should be a better allocation of roles and functions to address the fragmented approach and problems with local municipalities.

In conclusion, we want to say good governance is about good co-ordination. We therefore call upon the relevant structures to play their roles in ensuring there is co-ordination. Together we can do more. I thank you

Mr M QOBOSHIYANE (Eastern Cape): Hon Deputy Chairperson of the House, the National Council of Provinces is constitutionally established; it is the glue that binds the provincial aspirations of diverse provinces, as they are for a common good as a nation. This debate is on “The role of the National Council of Provinces in co-operative government and intergovernmental relations: Unlocking the synergy for collective effort”. Despite the enormous progress made over the past years in growing the national economy in an inclusive way and extending access to basic services, South Africa is still faced with massive unemployment, poverty and inequality. This is not surprising, taking into account the scale of transformation required in overcoming entrenched inequalities and spatial distortions. Intergovernmental relations, as a crucial element of government organisations in the South African context, is not in itself a solution, but a means to achieve effective outcomes in the different municipal spaces across the country.

Developmental local government has to be conditioned with regard to the practicalities of managing limited state resources in a prudent and efficient way. This lies at the heart of intergovernmental relations, where the optimal use of resources needs a collective effort that fosters an integrated, predictable and sustainable input for community development to evolve.

Experience has shown that alignment of governmental plans and strategies has been an illusion, because it is difficult to pursue outside a strategic national thrust and if it is based on mere paraphrasing of provincial and national priorities without a genuine contextualisation and localisation of national policies, objectives and targets in different municipal areas.

The key challenges that we face as a province in broad terms relate to the following areas. Firstly, co-ordination and integration of provincial and municipal strategic planning must take place in such a manner that provincial and national planning in the province are informed by and inform the national plans, provincial growth and development plans, PGDPs, and IDPs. Secondly, there is an absence of a credible, single, integrated planning, budgeting and reporting schedule for the province. Thirdly, there is a need for the existence of a coherent IGR framework for the province. And fourthly, on governance, there is a devolution of powers that is not always accompanied by capacity-building. Concurrent functions, like housing, also call for maximum co-operation among the spheres as a concurrent function, while public participation among the spheres and between organs of state remains a bit disjointed.

Taking our cue from national legislation such as the Intergovernmental Relations Framework Act, Act 13 of 2005, as well as Chapter 3 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, in addition to the whole plethora of legislation geared towards improved service delivery, we adopted a provincial intergovernmental relations strategy, together with the protocols of engagement, at the end of the last financial year, as a mechanism to foster working together in the province.

The strategy was based on an assessment that was done of the state of the intergovernmental relations in the province, which found a number of weaknesses in the IGR co-ordination and management, including a lack of capacity on the secretariat functions; delays in the implementation of decisions of IGR structures; a lack of linkages between the various IGR structures; limitations in the communication system within the IGR function in the province; a lack of proper co–ordination and communication of the national interventions in the province, with regard to the provincial administration and local administration, leading to multiple challenges, and many others. To change the situation for the better, the provincial government has introduced an annual executive council, Exco, outreach, which brings the spheres together under one roof to discuss issues of importance in service delivery, while at the same time the office of the premier and the department of local government are currently playing their role of IGR co- ordinators in the province to ensure that the provincial and national departments participate in the local planning.

In conclusion, as part of the above work, a roll-out plan by the department of local government and traditional affairs together with the office of the premier, Salga and the provincial treasury, will be implemented to strengthen the IGR system in the province, and this will include capacitating various functionaries of IGR within the province, particularly in the local sphere.

There is a concerted effort to implement the provincial IGR strategy that was developed in 2009 and approved by the Exco to ensure a proper and functioning IGR system in the province. I thank you.

Mr M N MOKOENA (Mpumalanga): Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces and Madam Deputy Chairperson, hon Ministers present, Deputy Ministers, Premier of the Northern Cape, members of our various executive councils, chairpersons of our various portfolio committees present today, allow me to thank the NCOP for affording us the opportunity to discuss this very important matter of co-operative governance and intergovernmental relations between the three spheres of government.

Hon members, we were reminded by various speakers before us that the Constitution of the Republic makes provision for how government should be constituted, and that the government is constituted as national, provincial and local spheres which are distinctive, interdependent and interrelated. They further stated that all spheres of government must observe and adhere to the principles of co-operative governance and must conduct their activities within the parameters that the Chapter provides. The distinctiveness, however, does not give them absolute power over one another, but should be understood within the context of the developmental role of each sphere.

Madam Chairperson, this debate could not have come at a better time, as our country is gearing itself for the 2011 local government elections and, invariably, we are in the process of assessing and interrogating our performance, particularly because the municipal space is where service delivery hits the ground.

The outcome and impact of national and provincial sector departments’ planning and strategy execution can largely be felt and measured within the wall-to-wall local government space. It is in this context that we submit that part of what should define the character of a developmental state, which we envision as a nation, is the creation of a local government system that is responsive, efficient, effective and accountable. This is Outcome 9 of our government priorities.

Furthermore, it is our considered view that at the centre of the developmental agenda is our collective responsibility across spheres of government and sector departments to build a strong state capacity capable of intervening decisively in defence of the poor and historically marginalised communities.

I humbly submit that in this context national and provincial government must, by legislative and other measures, support and strengthen the capacity of municipalities and thus co-operative governance in the context of intergovernmental relations. This is a non-negotiable constitutional imperative. However, I must be quick to caution that a legislative framework alone will not deliver the desired result. We need to elevate this debate and bring other critical ingredients on board, as the Minister of Finance earlier conceded, such as the question of the organisational culture within government structures, because the lessons drawn from the past 16 years should tell us that organisational culture is stronger than any policy or strategy.

Our attitudes, government atmospheric pressure, the right organisational temperature defined by values and ethos and how we do things moving forward will determine the success of any legislative and policy provision. In realising the ideals of co-operative governance and intergovernmental relations, we should spare no effort in changing the organisational culture in the administration of the three spheres of government and demand professionalism, excellence and accountability for results.

Chapter 5 of the Local Government Municipal Systems Act, Act 32 of 2000, clearly outlines integrated development planning and its processes. We wish to underscore that the integrated development plan, IDP, is an overarching development strategy. It is our view that for the greater and practical alignment of intergovernmental relations both provincial and national sector departments should align themselves around the IDP.

Chairperson, there is only one strategic document that must be implemented to achieve the objective of our developmental state in a local space, and all of those things should be contained in the IDP. We submit therefore that co-operative governance and intergovernmental relations must find expression in the context of the IDP. The shift from a technical approach to intergovernmental relations to a more sociopolitical one of co-operative governance provides a fresh environment in which the three spheres of government can more effectively plan, implement and monitor in an integrated manner.

It also provides for a more coherent approach to deepening democracy through institutions created to promote participatory governance. Co- operative governance therefore provides us with a renewed opportunity to improve on inclusive and integrated governance and administration.

Regional and rural economies, such as ours, often derive limited benefits from national inward investment initiatives, as intergovernmental relations do not result in national, provincial and local government planning together. Co-operative governance, however, provides us with this opportunity to collectively support municipalities to build economies through local and inward investment by ensuring that their local economic development strategies are linked to national and provincial initiatives.

It structures participation and collaboration between government and the business sector and communities in general in collectively strengthening local economies and creating decent work for the unemployed, in particular the youth. It allows for all stakeholders to identify their roles and responsibilities in the value chain that builds local economies, and in facilitating land availability and sufficient economic infrastructure through forward planning.

It also provides new impetus to past attempts to address intergovernmental planning challenges on issues such as, for example in our case, the damage being done to road networks in the province as a result of coal haulage, where the province and affected municipalities carry the financial burden of maintaining these road networks. Our desire for co-operative governance, implying better purposeful relations within and outside government, is not an idealistic one. It will have to be improved over a period of time and managed on an ongoing basis.

What is important is that tighter and clearer objectives, mechanisms, incentives and noncompliance penalties for nonco-operative governance should be clearly defined. Co-operative governance is a rather unique and ambitious governance model, like the Constitution that embodies the best ideals of a new democracy.

Chairperson, as I conclude, I wish to congratulate the NCOP for lifting up this debate, because, as the festival of ideas continues on co-operative governance and intergovernmental relations, we also want to suggest that the debate must find concrete expression in our collective responses on issues such as climate change, infrastructure development, national waste management, water sector issues and energy-related matters, municipal account committee issues and so forth. I thank you, Chair.

Mr M K LEKGORO (Gauteng): Deputy Chairperson and Chairperson of the NCOP, all protocol observed, when I saw Dennis Bloem coming up here - Minister Yunus Carrim remembers very well when Terror Lekota was threatening to move away from the ANC - the first person I thought of was Dennis Bloem and the fact that he would not be able to make out the difference between extreme love for a friend and a political choice. There is one reason – and only one - why he is in Cope, and that is his undying love for Terror Lekota. [Applause.]… a tantrum he threw here when he … [Inaudible.][Laughter.]

Mr D V BLOEM: Yes, and I told him … [Inaudible.]

Mr M K LEKGORO (Gauteng): I know!

Deputy Chair, the debate on this important topic takes place during a very important month in our calendar of events as a country. I wish to take this opportunity to pay tribute to all the women of our country. We owe it to them and always must make sure that, for their sake, our democracy flourishes for generations to come.

Building sound intergovernmental relations and ensuring that the spirit of co-operative governance finds resonance in our developmental agenda speaks directly to our noble cause of building a developmental state, which constitutes the central subject of our theme “to transform South Africa into a truly democratic and caring society”.

Our Constitution directs that all spheres of government and all organs of state within its spheres must secure the wellbeing of our people in the Republic. It goes without saying that our spheres of government and organs of state cannot secure such wellbeing outside the context of a well- rounded, developed country. It therefore requires that, as different spheres, we consistently marshal ourselves in making sure that we work as equal partners to ensure that our democratic state does not walk away from its developmental responsibilities.

We must always remind ourselves that our Constitution directs that all spheres of government and all organs of state within each sphere must co- operate with one another in mutual trust and good faith, by assisting and supporting one another, and co-ordinating their actions and legislation with one another. This provision in the Constitution guarantees that each sphere is bound to succeed in its constitutional responsibilities, with a more formidable relationship with the others, and further ensures that support is directed to other spheres of government to areas where it is needed.

As we debate this important topic, we must be reminded that our approach to intergovernmental relations and co-operative governance has always been informed by the need to promote relationships across and between the spheres of government for a shared, integrated, developmental vision. It is also because of our appreciation of the existence of interdependence that exists between these spheres of government.

The enactment of a number of pieces of legislation, by the two Houses of Parliament, to give effect to the spirit of sound intergovernmental relations and co-operative governance is a living testimony that our approach to provide sustainable livelihoods to our communities is not the exclusive responsibility of a single sphere of government, but a result of sound policy co-ordination, planning and implementation by all spheres of government.

In an attempt to ensure that the above finds expression in our daily programmes as the provincial government in Gauteng, we have adopted the Gauteng provincial intergovernmental relations programme of action. The programme is being considered by executive structures in the local government sphere in our province. There are also further engagements through forums such as the premier’s co-ordinating forum in the province on policy and strategic issues.

The Gauteng intergovernmental relations, IGR, framework aims to provide programmatic guidelines that will shift co-operative government from an abstract concept and governance mechanism to focusing on service delivery and ensuring responsiveness to citizens’ needs at both macro and micro levels.

The implementation of the framework will strengthen relations between the three spheres of government, and link and synergise provincial sector IGR forums, including the premier’s co-ordinating forum, and intermunicipality and interprovincial forums. The basis of the framework is that unless an integrated and coherent approach to address the challenges of governance is undertaken, the spheres of government and departments will continue to plan and implement policies and programmes in isolation from each other. Poor co-ordination will lead to inadequate, inefficient or duplicate service delivery.

We continue doing all of the above with a very firm commitment to strengthen the developmental state and good governance, and heighten service delivery in the province. It is perhaps important to mention that the decision to strengthen intergovernmental relations and co-operative governance also includes an attempt to respond to limited or no monitoring and evaluation of the IGR forums, and to respond to the limited use of broader provincial integrated planning.

This led to a proliferation of forums that were not necessarily aligned to the provincial strategic objectives, and this has had a direct impact on the alignment of planning and budgeting cycles. In implementing our IGR framework, we focus on the integrated planning and co-ordination of government programmes and projects; strategic agenda setting; contributing to a shared vision through a programmatic governance approach across the two spheres; ensuring effective IGR structures and systems in both local and provincial spheres; and creating opportunity for capacity development in sector departments and municipalities in the implementation of the framework. The successful implementation of the framework will assist in ensuring that the provincial integrated planning and co-ordination of programmes and activities contribute to achieving service delivery outcomes in the province.

Hon Deputy Chairperson, the unique nature of the NCOP finds expression in its constitutional mandate, as the House that brings together the three spheres of government. The legislative scrutiny and oversight role of the NCOP in promoting co-operative governance is fundamentally captured in section 76 of our Constitution, when it empowers the NCOP to pass a Bill, to pass an amending Bill or reject a Bill referred to it by the National Assembly.

The NCOP is a platform for the expression of the interests of provinces, and therefore acts as one of the central vehicles in the provision of quality service delivery. The NCOP is at the cutting edge of intergovernmental relations and serves to entrench co-operative governance across the three spheres of government, as mandated by the Constitution.

The Gauteng provincial government, through its own leader of government business, sees to the IGR processes, and sees these processes as complementary …

Is my time over? Oh! Thank you. [Applause.] [Time expired.] [Laughter.]

Cllr C JOHNSON (Salga): Chairperson, hon Chairperson of the NCOP Mr Mahlangu, members of the NCOP, Ministers in absentia, Deputy Minister Carrim and other representatives from the provinces, we have heard today the NCOP being described as the second Chamber. We also heard about the glue that binds us together and the factory of ideas. I would like to coin a new phrase, the “House of possibilities”, in the spirit of the challenge and call by President Zuma that we have to look at renewal, particularly in view of today’s theme, unlocking synergy for collective legislation and the role we as the SA Local Government Association, Salga, can also play in the NCOP.

The critical role of the NCOP must be seen in the context of the constitutional commitment to co-operative government. Co-operative government in this context implies that national policy and legislation that provinces and municipalities will be expected to implement are reflective of the provincial and local realities.

The NCOP has two critical roles in respect of intergovernmental relations: firstly, that it works with the National Assembly to make and pass new laws and to focus on laws affecting the provincial and local spheres, thereby ensuring that the provincial and local interests and concerns can be voiced as part of the national legislative process. Therefore, the “envoicing” role comes out very strongly.

Secondly, the NCOP plays an oversight role in the event of national interventions in a provincial government or provincial interventions in a municipality. The NCOP thus functions as a bridge-builder between the three spheres of government. In this regard, we also have seen a number of perceptions, whether justified or not, which must be seriously considered.

I would like to quote P Reddy, with regard to the assumed role of the NCOP in intergovernmental relations in order to do it effectively:

… the NCOP suffers from problems of both internal credibility, where South African politicians pay little attention to it and external legitimacy, where the public does not see it performing a useful role.

Reddy further criticises the NCOP by arguing that the NCOP lacks focus, suffers from lack of internal cohesion created by the presence of permanent and special delegates, allows national Cabinet to dictate its agenda and does not challenge either national Ministries or the National Assembly on matters of provincial interest and fails “to express distinctive regional interest”.

The NCOP has a number of shortfalls which compromise its status as an effective intergovernmental forum. Some of them I agree with, but not others. Chairperson, these are serious issues which we must collectively address to ensure that the NCOP fulfils its vision of a strong representative voice of provincial and local government in the legislative debate shaping our developmental state. As members of the ruling party we have said that the people shall govern. How do we voice that within the structures of state?

The NCOP thus plays a crucial role in forging a coherent government for the country in that it is a platform for engagement to take place between national policy direction for the country and the distinctive service preferences of provincial and local government.

As the representative body of local government, the focus of Salga’s participation in intergovernmental relations, IGR, structures - particularly the NCOP - is and must be to optimise local government’s participation and thereby to position local government at the centre of our co-operative and developmental governance system. Again, the people shall govern, as the local government turnaround strategy adopted by Cabinet reflects that local government is everyone’s business.

Salga is a political body created to represent, protect, safeguard and promote the interests of local government. Salga participates in intergovernmental structures and is thereby able to influence national and provincial legislation and to gauge the impact of such legislation on local government.

As a full partner in government, Salga is expected to be an active participant in the various intergovernmental forums to provide policy and positions on numerous issues and to represent local government interests.

Our Constitution provides for participation in the NCOP of designated representatives and this in itself says that we have to review that in order for Salga to be effective. This is within the scope of section 163(b)(ii) of the Constitution, which requires procedures by which local government may designate representatives to participate in the National Council of Provinces. The Organised Local Government Act must be amended to reflect the unified nature of Salga, including the logical consequence that its NCOP delegates are nominated at the national level.

We also find that the current leadership of Salga is either made up of mayors or district representatives, and they are doing this on a voluntary basis. They both have to exercise their representative responsibilities in IGR structures and at the same time execute their executive obligations to the primary institution.

It can be safely argued that only when Salga has a full-time political leadership that can serve in the NCOP and portfolio committees of the National Assembly, as well as Minmecs, will local government take up its role at the heart of our co-operative local government and avoid being marginalised in national debates and in other structures where issues which impact on developmental local government are discussed. Substantial political leadership is therefore required if Salga is to assume its constitutional and legislative obligations and participate in the key strategic intergovernmental structures.

We would like to engage the NCOP and lobby that the Rules be amended to include the provision whereby the NCOP is compelled to afford organised local government the opportunity to address the Council before a matter affecting local government is voted on. This would apply particularly when the NCOP considers the approval or discontinuation of provincial interventions.

Local government has been given a challenging set of responsibilities. Effective performance against its constitutional mandate requires a coherent and co-ordinated set of support initiatives, including enabling legislation from the other two spheres of government. The NCOP has a crucial role to play in this respect.

In the light of the current developments, challenges and opportunities confirmed in local government and the developmental state, for instance, or physical divisions or allocations and the critical role that Salga needs to play to lobby for the best interests of member municipalities, it is critical that we address some of the shortcomings that have held us back in fulfilling the expectations of our communities.

Chairperson, these debates provide an opportunity to address some of the fundamental constraints hampering our institutions, and particularly the local sphere in its quest to effect development, so that the third generation of councillors stepping into the fray in 2011 and beyond have a more stable, sound, equitable policy and legislative framework to deliver on the developmental state.

In the spirit of Women’s Month we would like to call on Salga and political parties to ensure that 50:50 representation is achieved when drawing up party lists. Even where those party leaders are women, please ensure that not only men are elected! [Applause.]

The role of Salga in the NCOP must be reviewed and, where necessary, revisited to further strengthen this House to ensure that the voices from below are heard, and particularly that those voices from below are heard in this House, and the national debate is considered meaningfully.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon member.

Cllr C JOHNSON: Salga looks forward to playing a meaningful role in the NCOP and appeals to the House to support it. [Time expired.] [Applause.] The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Conclude, conclude, you have only few minutes left.

Cllr C JOHNSON: Yes, I am finished. Thank you. [Laughter.]

Mr T E CHAANE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, intergovernmental relations in the South African context are concerned with interaction between the different spheres of government. The Constitution provides that government comprises national, provincial and local spheres of government which are distinctive, interdependent and interrelated. According to the Constitution, an Act of Parliament must establish or provide structures and institutions to promote and facilitate intergovernmental relations and provide for appropriate mechanisms and procedures to facilitate settlements of intergovernmental disputes.

The Constitution further provides that an Act of Parliament must provide for the equitable division of revenue raised nationally among the national, provincial and local spheres of government. For this reason Parliament has passed the following pieces of legislation: the Intergovernmental Relations Framework Act and the Intergovernmental Fiscal Relations Act, as well as many others that other colleagues referred to.

The purpose of the Intergovernmental Relations Framework Act is to establish a framework for national, provincial and local governments to promote and facilitate intergovernmental relations and to provide for mechanisms and procedures. The Act provides mechanisms for these spheres to talk to each other, co-operate, support and to assist one another. Nothing in the Act stops any of the forums established in terms of the Acts to refer any matter discussed in those forums to the NCOP or to any of its committees, especially if such matters have policy or budgetary implications.

For that reason, Deputy Chairperson, I do not agree with the narrow interpretation of the Constitution by hon Harris. I am surprised that hon Harris chose to self-promote, self-place and lobby for a federal state, instead of sharing the good ideas he has on this particular subject. Perhaps we need to remind each other, Deputy Chairperson, that the fact that we all fly for two hours to Cape Town from our provinces does not make the Western Cape a federal state separate from South Africa; it remains a province in South Africa and it will remain so. [Applause.]

It is also not surprising that he chose that particular route because, as a Member of the NCOP, I have never heard any leader of the DA in this House saying anything good about the ruling party. They are best at mastering criticism on every good thing the ANC and its government does.

As for the comments, I was listening with interest to hear the solutions that hon Bloem provided from Cope, but I could not pick up even a single one, except to hear from media clips and what he said in the media. But perhaps I need to share with hon Bloem that he was unable to share with us those matters because Cope has of late mastered the art of using the courts to run its own affairs. Perhaps at some point we will have to debate those issues.

Our oversight visits to different provinces in the past weeks exposed us to the harsh reality that there seem to be no connected relations between the three spheres of government, despite the existence of the structures. [Interjections.]

O ntšela nako, monna. [You are wasting my time.]

Mr D V BLOEM: Deputy Chairperson, would the hon member take a question from me?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Chaane, would you like to take a question?

Mr T E CHAANE: Deputy Chair, I’ll dedicate one hour of my time tomorrow to engage with hon Bloem; not today.

Mr D V BLOEM: You are not brave enough to take my question. [Laughter.]

Mr T E CHAANE: We found that some provincial departments operate in silos away from municipalities to the extent that they cannot detect problems at an early stage. A classic example is the current intervention by the national Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs in municipalities on matters that, in our view, could have been detected earlier by provincial departments if they were playing that role in terms of intergovernmental relations.

In most instances, integrated development plans, IDPs, in municipalities are not properly aligned with the provincial plans. One area of concern is the tendency that we have detected in municipalities of compromising service delivery by choosing to invest huge sums of money. For what purpose, we don’t know. I hope that the Ministry for Co-operative Governance and Traditional affairs as well as the Ministry of Finance will have an interest in pursuing this matter further.

The NCOP is strategically placed to drive the process and encourage intergovernmental relations between the three spheres of government, particularly on matters aimed at fast-tracking service delivery. In simple terms, intergovernmental relations, in my understanding, means working together to do more, and that is the call the ruling party has made and it is a call that we should all respect.

Communication between spheres of government should be improved and properly co-ordinated at all stages - from planning to implementation. Whatever decision is taken in any of the forums created by the relevant Acts or interaction forums should also be communicated speedily to the recipients of such services. Perhaps this should be communicated at a faster speed than one would normally see used to report negative occurrences.

It is important to note that municipalities are assigned key service delivery functions such as housing, roads, provision of electricity, water and municipal infrastructure. They have significant autonomy to allocate resources to meet basic needs and respond to local priorities, while at the same time giving effect to nationally agreed upon priorities. For these reasons one wishes to commend the NCOP on adopting an approach of seeking to solve problems on the spot through the programme of “Taking Parliament to the People”. This approach, if adopted by all communities during oversight visits, will yield much more fruit - as seen during the oversight visits in Limpopo, North West and the Eastern Cape.

The approach seems to be working wonders, given the reports we are receiving from all those visited so far. We are also beginning to see a lot of improvements in the spending of conditional grants, particularly those that are aimed at improving services at local municipalities.

Over and above that, the NCOP has the very important role of facilitating stakeholder engagement through its public hearings on the Financial and Fiscal Commission, FFC, recommendations for the division of revenue for the next financial year. The NCOP again, through its involvement within the Budget Council, as represented by the chairpersons of the Select Committees on Appropriations and Finance, has a role to ensure that inputs from stakeholders are seriously considered by the Budget Council. In terms of the Money Bills Amendment Procedures and Related Matters Act of 2009, it has a role to play by ensuring that, when considering the Budget, the issues that arise through the Intergovernmental Relations Framework Act structures and forums are taken into consideration.

We appreciate the fact that the government is accelerating its efforts to better assist municipalities to improve planning and financial capacity; to achieve greater efficiency in delivery and expand service access to households in predominantly rural and/or lower-capacity areas. In the context of these efforts, the equitable share, excluding the Regional Services Council, RSC, levy replacement and special support for councillor remuneration, has been growing and will still grow by an annual average of 12%.

We are, however, noting the challenges that remain key in the local equitable share of some of the municipalities. To state a few: the need for a differentiated approach for funding the different types of municipalities, whilst considering the unique expenditure needs, fiscal capacity and long-term planning and population dynamics; the broader objective of the local government fiscal framework, which is linking the local equitable share to conditional grants, especially infrastructure grants, so that any additional operating costs for municipalities are factored into the formula; increased operating costs associated with new social infrastructure funded by the municipal infrastructure grant, where there is no return on the infrastructure; the large maintenance backlogs and the continued difficulties in addressing these backlogs; sufficient flexibility to incorporate changes to current free basic services; cognisance of the other services that local government provides and the effect these expenditure items have on the respective budgets; and the cross-subsidisation ability of certain municipalities to provide services and account for fiscal capacity more accurately.

We appreciate the role that the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs is playing together with the Development Bank of Southern Africa as well as Treasury in assisting and ensuring co-operation between the provincial departments and local government. We are beginning to see, through such interventions, some progress in most parts of our country.

I wish to say, Deputy Chairperson, that it would be appreciated if Mr Johnson could provide the consistent presence of Salga in this House, so that they enrich our debates to assist in all the challenges cited at local government. I thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Madam Chairperson, NCOP Chair, MECs, comrades and friends, this debate is particularly welcome and I congratulate you on organising it. I bring to you the very good wishes of Minister Shiceka. As most of you will know, he was a member of this House not so long ago, and so the NCOP is very close to his heart.

Indeed, the NCOP is very close to the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, because if we are going to work on the new, emerging model of co-operative governance, the NCOP is a very, very crucial partner for us, more so than the National Assembly. And it seems to me that this debate should not just be about the NCOP, of course. It should also be about the NA. The NA should be looking at and reviewing its role, so that it is more effective and efficient in accelerating service delivery and development, to which we are all committed. In fact, Parliament as a whole should be doing this sort of introspection, and I congratulate you once again.

Parliament is ultimately the tribune of the people. It is the organ of people’s power. It is Parliament that holds the executive to account. It is Parliament that represents the people to the executive. It is Parliament that puts pressure on the executive to ensure that we deliver on our mandate, as it does on both Houses –not least the NCOP – to ensure that the work we do contributes to service delivery and development. A crucial measure of the quality of a democracy is the vibrancy and effectiveness of its Parliament. In our case, we have two equally important Houses and we have huge developmental tasks, which means that these two Houses also have to work together and engage with the executive much more stridently than what I, for what it is worth, think is currently the case.

When it comes to co-operative government and intergovernmental relations, friends, the NCOP has a very, very crucial role to play. After all, as has been said repeatedly today, you are the legislature in which all three spheres converge. You are unique, in fact. If I am correct, NCOP Chair, I think this is one of the only national legislatures anywhere in the world in which local government is represented.

While I am on the subject, I think it is about time we considered looking into the possibility of the SA Local Government Association, Salga, actually having a vote in the National Council of Provinces. It is something we need to debate. In the same way, we need to consider what Councillor Johnson just said, which is that when the NCOP is deciding on interventions, Salga should be allowed to address the House. Why not, in my view? Let us look into those sorts of things.

It strikes me that Mr Harris is actually remarkably narrow-minded. Presumably it reflects the party he comes from. It is a minority party and it is difficult for them to go beyond a minority perspective. However, it is a remarkably technocratic, elitist, and narrow understanding of the Constitution. Indeed, the references he makes to the Constitution are abysmally crude. This is out of context with the overall system of the need for co-operative governance that is conveyed in the Constitution as a whole.

And for a member of the legislature, it is remarkable, too, that he would want to say that the role of intergovernmental relations and co-operative governance resides primarily in the executive. Why? Why should Parliament not take responsibility? If you like, there are two dimensions to intergovernmental relations and co-operative governance, if he has not worked it out yet. One is an executive and the other is the legislature, and really, the power should reside in the legislature.

None of the structures we have – Minmecs, Munimecs, the President’s Co- ordinating Council and the premiers’ co-ordinating forums - can substitute for the role of the NCOP; by no means. In fact, your very rationale for existing, surely, is partly the role you play in co-operative governance and intergovernmental relations. Partly, if not, substantially, the reason Salga is here is precisely because you have a crucial role to play in co- operative governance.

I could reply, if there was time. The whole 15 minutes would be consumed by it, but there are three quick things I want to say: firstly, he essentially conflates the role of the executive in Parliament; secondly, he does not seem to understand that Parliament is located in the people, and whatever the executive does is irrelevant to the extent that you represent the people more than we in the executive do; and thirdly, he is offering technical solutions. I will skip that. It will take me too long to explain.

I think I will move on to say that if you look at the topic, in fact, maybe, just maybe, it should have been the role of the NCOP in co-operative governance, not just government. So, that links both the sense in which you represent the people and civil society out there and the sense in which you relate to the other two spheres in so far as we are speaking of the NCOP as a national sphere.

You will be pleased to know that I will not be repeating what has been said many, many times today – what the role in the Constitution is for the NCOP. I will skip that, for which I hope I will get some applause, because you have heard it so many times. [Applause.] And if you do not applaud me, I will read it word for word and that will really bore you. And there is nothing wrong with being bored in Parliament. What is wrong with that? We are all human, and in a three-hour debate, obviously one’s mind drifts, and so, really …

Coming back to the point, though, I think there is a sense in which we must understand too, that since 1996, there has been no major intergovernmental dispute that has been taken to a court for settlement. It is partly because the NCOP is here, and partly that the three spheres have some scope to address those issues through a structure like this and fulfil what Chapter 3 of the Constitution requires of us in the three spheres – that we do not use the courts and we settle disputes through intergovernmental mechanisms and processes, one of which is, of course, the NCOP.

Chairperson of the NCOP, I welcome your proposal that the NCOP should set up specific committees, as I understood you to say, to have scrutiny and oversight over how intergovernmental relations and co-operative governance is working. We think that is a wonderful idea. We also think that with the National Planning Commission and the developmental role that we all have to play, the NCOP is again reinforced in the need for it to play an active role in intergovernmental relations and co-operative governance.

I will skip some of these very … I want to quote to you how we should never write in government. What does this actually mean? The person who helped me with the speech – and I have taken only chunks of it, mercifully – reminds us that the 2007 guide says that “IGR is all about complex and interdependent relations amongst three spheres of government as well as the co-ordination of public policies amongst national, provincial and local government”. This is very wordy. Basically, it was far more clearly set out, I think, by many members of the House.

In the 1999 audit we speak of the following:

… an interacting network of institutions at national, provincial and local levels, created and refined to enable the various parts of government to cohere in a manner which is appropriate to its institutional arrangements… It is an evolving system of institutional co-operation that seeks to address the relations and quality …

These are many words, actually. It can be easily simplified by explaining – and especially to our friend, Mr Harris - that intergovernmental relations are evolving all the time. I think the NCOP is poised now, more than ever before, to play a very effective role. [Interjections.] Has my time expired?

Mr T D HARRIS: Chairperson, on a point of order: Will the Deputy Minister take a question? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: I will take question providing it is precise.

Mr T D HARRIS: It is very concise. In the light of your harsh criticism of your own speech writer, will you consider firing the person, and writing your own speeches?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: If you listened carefully, I said that the speech writer took texts out of two documents, and yes, I think government officials should not write like that. So, at least we agree on one thing, though you misunderstand, because you did not pay keen enough attention to what I actually said. It is not the speech writer, it is the person who drew notes from government documents. We should not write like this. I have gone on record saying it repeatedly. It can actually be simplified in five or six words, and the members of the House – not you, though – were much clearer in what they said than what the government officials are saying.

So, yes, I have no doubt that in your provincial government and in your municipality they are actually even worse. However, the point is that civil servants the world over … I will not take your question, if that is what you are asking, because I want to deal with issues that are more relevant. Thank you. But he is entitled to … Yes.

Mr R A LEES: Madam Chair, would you please ask the speaker to speak through you and not speak directly to the members of the House?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Indeed, I will do exactly that. Thank you very much, that is no problem.

I would like to draw your attention to what the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs is actually doing, because we think you are playing, and will play, a crucial role in this regard. We are processing the first drafts of legislation dealing with interventions - national intervention in the provinces in terms of section 100, and provincial intervention in terms of section 139 in the municipalities. We are engaging with the SA Local Government Association. We will engage even before we bring the Bill to Parliament, maybe with senior officials of the NCOP, and look at this Bill …

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chairperson, I just want to ask the hon Deputy Minister if it is true that the leader of the ANC Youth League does not agree with his policy position on what he has just stated?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Thank you. That is a facile question. It is incoherent, as well. You can speak to me after this meeting. [Laughter.]

As one or two speakers in this House said, the issue, quite simply, is that we are seeking to ensure that we do not intervene in municipalities, Madam Chair, when the municipalities are almost on the brink of disaster. We need early warning signals, and so on, and we need intervention that is more pre- emptive. The intention of the Bill is not to disempower municipalities, not to take away any powers and functions, but precisely to empower municipalities by ensuring that the national and provincial spheres intervene more actively.

If you look at the community protests that have been spreading throughout the country this year, they are not the failure of local government alone. They are ultimately the failure of the co-operative governance system as a whole and, to some extent, it reflects on the NCOP, too. We are pleading with the NCOP to play a more active role in that regard. You do, in fact, play that role, but we are saying you should do so even more actively than you have been doing. I know the chair of the committee that has oversight over us has been visiting the municipalities, and we are very grateful for that. However, between the committee and ourselves, we need to be more like activists – both you as Parliament, and we, as the executive - in seeing early signs, also, of municipalities that are about to dissolve, as it were.

So, we will be introducing this Bill. We are very keen to engage with you. In fact, before the Bill is formally channelled through the parliamentary process, we will have started that discussion, as we have done with your chairperson in a certain structure of your committee that does oversight over us. We hope to bring such legislation before the end of the year which, I am sure you will be very keen to know, enhances your co-operative governance and intergovernmental role.

We also have a process under way at the moment, a Green Paper on co- operative governance, that will hopefully be completed by the end of this year or early next year. And there again, the role of the NCOP is quintessentially important. Without you, this system of co-operative governance and intergovernmental relations will not work.

We know there are criticisms of the role of the NCOP. Councillor Johnson referred to them, and so on. There are people who argue that the NCOP is subordinate to the NA. In fact, there are members of the NA who also see the NCOP as inferior. I think these issues should be challenged.

Ultimately, the NCOP’s credibility will reside not in this or that interpretation of the law or the Constitution, but in its activism. And in this term, one has noticed that the NCOP is being more active. Obviously, the more active the NCOP is, the more the NA, the people and civil society out there will take it seriously. But we, as the co-operative governance Ministry, are especially keen that you play the role that the Constitution and legislation provide for you. Of course, we have passed the Intergovernmental Relations Act, but there are weaknesses in it and we need to review it. As part of the co-operative governance Green Paper, that is one of the things we will seek to do.

We want to be very clear, though. Part of the aim of fine-tuning, entrenching, and consolidating the system of co-operative governance and intergovernmental relations is to simplify the system and to ensure that we do not, with the changes we mean to make in consultation with you and other stakeholders, bureaucratise it. We want an activist system of intergovernmental relations, which requires both the executive and the legislature - and not least the NCOP - to acknowledge that, ultimately, it is the people that decide their own destiny. We are merely their representatives, and those of us who are deployed in the executive also need to understand that very clearly.

Therefore we need to engage more with the NCOP than we might have been doing until now, and, as the executive, to take it more seriously than we have been doing. It works both ways, as I said earlier, comrades and friends. If the NCOP plays a more activist role, we, as the executive, are obliged to take it more seriously.

So, as has been raised in this meeting, in this discussion, and having moved on, I also want to stress the crucial role that you have in intergovernmental fiscal relations.

My time is fast running out and I have less than two and a half minutes left, so I will focus very quickly on one further aspect which I think is crucial. It is to say that the reason why we, too, are forced to entrench our co-operative governance system and intergovernmental relations is precisely that we are committed to a developmental state. The two are mutually related. For those of you who might be sensitive to it, they are dialectically interrelated, not in a crude sense, but the one feeds into the other. If we have a stronger co-operative governance system, it creates the conditions for a developmental state, and the more we forge a developmental state, the more the conditions are created for a strengthened co-operative governance system.

Securing co-ordination and co-operation across the spheres is actually a challenge all over the world, not just in South Africa. We are a young, emerging democracy. But if you look at some of the works that I have sometimes browsed through about how governments elsewhere in the world work in the established democracies of the United States - the biggest democracy you can think of – or India, and so on, it is very difficult to secure co- operation with the silo mentality.

So, we must not be too hard on ourselves. On the other hand, we cannot be complacent. We have challenges the USA and other countries in the developed world do not have. We are simply saying that these five years are do-or-die years. If we do not develop our country substantially, if we do not significantly advance service delivery and development, the people out there are going to become increasingly cynical about government and all of us, whichever political party we come from.

We have had this debate now. So what? Where do we go from here? As the co- operative governance Ministry, we are especially keen to see what the outcomes are. The NCOP Chair suggested in his initial input - and I apologise that I was a few minutes late, but if I tell you why after this meeting, you will understand fully – that we are very keen to see what the outcomes are.

Let us not just have this debate, as government and Parliament often do, and have nothing come of it. Two years from now, we may have yet another debate but there is no movement forward. If, indeed, we have another debate, I suggest it might be in 18 months’ time or a year from now, although it is only a broad suggestion I can make. And then we can review how far we have come between this debate now and the next debate. But there should be some outcomes.

There are some practical issues that have arisen today, like the sort of things Councillor Johnson raised. There are other issues, like the NCOP Chair raising this committee idea which I think the NCOP should actually apply its mind to.

There is a certain party whose name I will not mention, which is turning 100 very shortly and which is having a major conference of over 2 000 delegates in late September. There is an issue there. These issues can be taken there to get some mandate in a democracy. It is the majority party that guides government. So, hopefully, some of these issues will be taken up there. Finally, I can say that we have now reached a critical juncture and we must deliver. I thank you very much for a very interesting debate. Thank you, indeed.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Thank you very much to all the people who took part in this debate.

Debate concluded.

The Council adjourned at 17:39. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Bills passed by Houses – to be submitted to President for assent

(1)    Bill passed by National Council of Provinces on 26 August 2010:

      a) South African Reserve Bank Amendment Bill [B 10 – 2010]
         (National Assembly – sec 75).

National Council of Provinces

The Chairperson

1. Message from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces in respect of Bills passed by Assembly and transmitted to Council

(1)    Bills passed by National Assembly and transmitted for
     concurrence on 26 August 2010:


    (a)      Deeds Registries Amendment Bill [B 13 – 2010] (National
         Assembly – sec 75).


    (b)      Sectional Titles Amendment Bill [B 14 – 2010] (National
         Assembly – sec 75).


     The Bills have been referred to the Select Committee on Land and
     Environmental Affairs of the National Council of Provinces.