Mr Speaker, each of the three Opposition parties has moved a long amendment, and I shall begin with the amendment moved by the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central which reads inter alia as follows:

1. (1) the increase of tariffs, and particularly the increase of fares for third-class passengers, and the inevitable effect thereof on the inflation rate …

However, the hon member for De Kuilen spelt out very clearly to us that in the future it is going to happen to an increasing extent that we in South Africa will have to live further from our place of employment. The Opposition keeps saying that the loss of passengers is the result of our policy that a man may not live near his place of employment. However, there are Whites nowadays who live 25 km from their jobs, for example those who live in Pretoria and work in Johannesburg. There are people who live even further from their place of employment than the Black people who live in Soweto. This is ascribable to our population growth. What is wrong with the Opposition? They keep asking for a narrowing of the wage gap, and the gap has been narrowed. The rise in the consumer price index since 1970 has been 313%. The salary increases of the Coloureds, Indians and Black people came to 383%, and in the meantime the price of train tickets increased by only 236%. However, the Opposition is not open to reality. The Government has done what it can, and it recognizes as a matter of policy that the same salary will in due course be paid to all races for equal work. The trade unions have agreed with this. However, what is happening now? The Opposition is making a fuss about the increase of 17,5% in the fare of a third-class train passenger, whereas in the case of a first-class passenger the increase is only 7,5%. In the first place, I want to say that a person of colour can also travel first class. Nothing prevents him from making a booking on a first-class train. Let us take a brief look at the increases. A first-class ticket between Johannesburg and Durban was increased from R57 to R61, whereas the fare for a third-class passenger over the same distance was raised from R20,50 to R24. A first-class ticket is becoming more expensive by 0,5 cent per kilometre and that of a third-class ticket by 0,4 cent per kilometre. Surely we are discriminating by doing this. However, hon members opposite are repeatedly asking why people of colour should have to pay 17,5% more in fares while the cost of a first-class ticket is being increased by only 7,5%. A weekly ticket from Johannesburg to Soweto cost R2 whereas now it is being increased to R2,30, which represents an increase of 0,1 cent per kilometre. Nowadays we convey a passenger at less than one cent per kilometre. Where else in the world is this happening? For example, the railways in Britain are subsidized by £1 800 million for the transport of passengers. In a small country like Japan the government pays the railways a subsidy of R2 000 million on passengers. What does a weekly ticket between Cape Town and Mitchell’s Plain cost? A weekly train ticket for this journey of 32 km costs R2,60 and is now being increased to R3, which represents an increase of 0,8 cent per kilometre. Therefore the argument of hon members opposite means sweet blow-all. Everyone is getting weary of this constant complaining about discrimination. If tariffs are increased in proportion next year, then there will have to be larger increases of third-class fares. We cannot afford to convey people who are getting big salary increases at uneconomic tariffs for ever.

What I find strange is that when hon members of the CP were still members of the NP I held meetings together with them and I was sometimes amazed at how they could lay into the HNP. Sometimes it was almost incredible. Now they are worse than the HNP. I cannot believe that a fraternal bond has been formed between those people merely in an attempt to divide. In every sphere they try to divide. The hon member for Nigel moves an amendment asking that I give the assurance that I shall ensure that a Coloured or an Indian is not appointed as a Minister, Deputy Minister or a member of the Board of the SATS. We held a referendum and the CP and the PFP stood together and propagated a no vote. They said: “Don’t be negative, vote no”. In this way they fought together against us. The entire nation then voted and the NP was given a mandate. 66,5% of the people voted yes to the new constitution. The hon member for Nigel now asks that I give him the assurances in regard to appointments in the SATS. Surely I am not the State President. Has the CP read the new constitution? Do they know that the State President is elected by way of a majority vote? The constitution also provides how the committees will be appointed. Now the hon member proposes in his amendment that the Board of the SATS should only consist of Whites. I want to ask: What about the committees that operated in the past, for example in Mr Vorster’s time? The hon member for Kuruman agreed that there could be committees in which Coloureds and Indians could serve. [Interjections.] Surely these things were recommended by those hon members. Of course, they are the sanctimonious Christians. They would not lie. Those people say they are better people than I am, they are better Christians than I. Why, then, do they not admit that they agreed that there should be committees in which Coloureds and Indians would serve? [Interjections.] I say there was a referendum and we are not going to deviate from that mandate. That is clear and it is “finished and klaar”.

The fourth point of their amendment states that:

I do not protect the Whites. I protect everyone who works for us. However, those hon members want to discriminate. They want to drive in a wedge. Why do they not ask that everyone in the SATS should be protected? They are only interested in recruiting a few votes by going out and saying that I do not accept the amendment. I am not prepared to say today to the faithful worker for the SATS, whose skin is black and who has worked for us for 40 years, “Old chap, I shall oblige the CP by trampling on you.” I say that that man is also part of the SATS and I protect everyone in this organization. [Interjections.]

Then the hon member of the CP ask in their amendment that:

What did I do at a station in Natal? I was told that the trend nowadays was for more Blacks than Whites to travel by train. However, the Whites’ dining room on that station was three times bigger than that of the Blacks. What did I decide there, in conjunction with the management? We said: “Let us give the smaller dining room to the Whites and the big one to the Blacks.” I said that we believe in people not being crowded out. We believe that we must live separately in this country and that we must attend school separately. We believe, too, that when no-one is crowded out, it is unnecessary to take steps.

Mr Speaker, may I ask the hon the Minister whether he has replaced any of the notice boards on stations as he intended doing when he assumed office?

Sir, I have never had a noticeboard taken down. We have applied the practical aspects. However, when it comes to the crowding-out of minorities, that is a different matter. I have said before that on the train from Mitchell’s Plain a Coloured woman said to me: “Protect us against the Black people who trample us on the trains.” I say that if there is crowding-out of minorities, one must be protective towards them. However, we do not make an issue of it. The hon member for Soutpansberg must not take amiss of me what I want to say now. I do so in a friendly spirit. A fellow asked me the other day: How does Thomas Langley wink? The answer was: He opens one eye. [Interjections.] I say this in a friendly spirit.

The next point in the amendment of the hon members of the CP is that:

Last year we transported 722 million people by train—and now I am not speaking about the 4 million transported by air. Do the hon members of the CP travel by train? Do they make use of the commuter services? Is there no praise for the way in which we handle this situation? Moreover, the SATS does not possess public holiday resorts. They belong to staff associations, that are managed by the staff of the SATS. The SATS does not have its own holiday resorts. The associations decide on the rules. After all, they are the people who control them, and accordingly they decide what rules must apply.

However, I wish to make haste and try to dispose of hon members’ arguments point by point; the Committee Stage is still ahead.

†The hon member for Port Elizabeth Central put a question to me in connection with the failure on the part of the SATS to reach a satisfactory arrangement with the Treasury regarding uneconomic passenger services. I can inform the hon member that real progress has been made in this respect. Contributions by the Treasury during the past year, including exemption from the payment of interest, amounted to R305 million. The initial direct contribution was R200 million. The hon member for De Aar put a similar question to me. In total we received R605 million from the Treasury.

The hon member for Port Elizabeth Central also referred to the excessive protection afforded the SATS by the Road Transportation Act. Hon members of the PFP do not agree that the national carrier organization of South Africa should be protected. I do not object to the SATS being agreeable to entering into freer competition provided the SATS are relieved of all financial burdens resulting from uneconomic socio-economic services, and the competitiveness of the various modes of transport be placed on an equal basis as far as the costs of infrastructure are concerned. The haulier with his big lorry must also pay towards the costs of roads just as the SATS have to pay towards the costs of railroads. Another thing one must remember is that the SATS are compelled to transport kraal manure, for instance, from Beaufort West to the Paarl vineyards. If a wine farmer in the Paarl district wants a truckload of kraal manure, and the only place from where he can obtain it is Beaufort West, SATS, as national carrier organization, are compelled to transport that manure. That farmer can forget about approaching a private haulier to transport that truckload of kraal manure for him. After all, that farmer is not stupid. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Port Elizabeth Central also stated that the SA Airways has since October 1981, increased tariffs by 127%. In actual fact, Mr Speaker, there had been no increases in air tariffs in the two years prior to April 1980, when tariffs were increased by 20%. Between 1978 and 1984 the fuel index price has soared by 534%. That means that the increases in air fares have been far lower than the increase in the price of fuel. In connection with the hon member’s suggestion about divorcing SA Airways from the SATS, I can only say that he did not come forward with a convincing argument.

*The hon member merely asked whether we should not divorce the SA Airways from the SATS. He merely put the question whether we did not think the time had come to separate the two.

I said you should investigate the possibility.

I am definitely not in favour of such a step. Why should I investigate it then? Knowing we will need an extra manager, extra staff, etc, while we have a business concern with a turnover of R1 000 million, together with the total turnover of R7 000 million of the SATS in its entirety, whey then should I investigate such a suggestion? I believe costs will increase tremendously if we should ever do that.

*The hon member for De Kuilen thanked the management of the SATS for its managerial know-how. Few people do that. However, we appreciate the work that these people do. I also wish to thank the hon member sincerely for his contribution, both in his capacity as chairman of the select committee in question and in his capacity as chief Government spokesman on Transport Services in this House. Indeed, he undertook a thorough-going study of transport services in South Africa.

I have already furnished an answer to the hon member for De Aar to the question he put to me in regard to the R200 million. I want to put it to the hon member that we must stop referring to this as a subsidy. That is quite wrong. This amount represents remuneration for the services we render. I believe that he will agree with me on this score.

The hon member also asked that we take cognizance of the circumstances of pilots of the SA Airways. Adjustments in remuneration and in the other conditions of service of pilots of the SA Airways were effected recently. There are still certain outstanding aspects which we are attending to at present.

Then, too, the hon member asked questions relating to the aspect of security. The hon member for Green Point and the hon member for Cape Town Gardens also referred to security measures. This is a matter which is being given high priority by the Administration—the question of security on trains and on the premises of the SATS.

The hon member for Kempton Park discussed the 50 years of existence of the SA Airways. I want to thank him for the study he made of the Airways. He also pointed out that we established links between ourselves and foreign countries, not all of which are well-disposed towards us. That, of course, is true. History shows that the SA Airways has always ensured contact with other countries.

†The hon member for Amanzimtoti always makes a very thorough study of the activities of SATS. The hon member said that we must identify the cost of concessions. The value of concessions to SATS staff is taken into account in determining the profit or loss of the various services. SATS is being compensated fully in respect of certain free passes. The question of other concessions is at present being investigated by the Franzsen Committee. The profitability of capital assets and the economic utilization of new and existing assets are receiving continuous attention.

The hon member also enquired why financing costs have increased by an amount of R129 million. The reason for this is that these financing costs are ascribed to additional loans amounting to approximately R800 million some of which were local and some of which were overseas.

*The hon member for Kimberley South referred to the passengers who delay the SA Airways. The hon member also said that tariffs should increase annually with every increase in cost. I agree with the hon member. It happens that passengers board an aircraft and then have to wait while messages are broadcast for a passenger who has not yet turned up. This irritates the passengers in that aircraft, and we have gone into the matter. The passenger books his luggage in and it has happened in the past that all the other passengers of the aircraft have had to disembark while the luggage is unloaded because that one passenger has not turned up. The passenger goes to have a drink or has a drop too much or is afraid to fly or meets a friend or family. As a result he does not turn up and the aircraft is delayed. That aircraft cannot take off because that passenger’s luggage is on the aircraft and one never knows whether there might not be a bomb in that luggage. These are security measures that we adopt but that also result in aircraft sometimes being delayed. We are investigating the whole matter at the moment to see whether we cannot do something about this. However, the hon member for Kimberley South is right. There are passengers who may have arranged appointments in London and they have to wait for that passenger who has had a little too much. [Interjections.]

†The hon member for Pietermaritzburg North referred to the reduction of Black staff. I want to assure him that no Black employee had his service terminated and that the reduction occurred as a result of the normal outflow of staff. I have told the hon member before that the reduction in staff was due to resignations and people leaving our employ. We did not fire any permanent employee whether Black, White, Coloured or Indian.

The hon member also suggested that the money spent on staff hostels should rather be invested in family housing. A house ownership scheme for Blacks was introduced with effect from 1 February and we are giving attention to encouraging Blacks to obtain their own houses. I believe that if a man has his own house, if there is an outbreak of violence or unrest of some sort, he will protect his house instead of setting fire to it.

The hon member also raised the question as to whether SATS was not modernizing too quickly.

*I travelled by train from Ermelo to Richards Bay. One stops at a place like Vryheid and sees that there is a whole wall full of lights. Along the entire line there is no station master, no one with a flag and no signalman. At such a time one cannot help thinking that we in South Africa are in fact looking for employment opportunities, but on the other hand we are modernizing by means of containerization and cutting out labour. However, that is life. We must be able to compete and we must also provide an efficient service. We must compete against the private carriers and we must be able to convey goods at a cheaper tariff. I agree with the hon member. It is a heartbreaking story as far as the rural towns are concerned. Previously one always had the man with the flag or a signalman who sent three children to the local school. Even if the hon member is a Prog I think he has a good heart because he understands these problems.

On Monday morning when I drove to Parliament I heard Marius Kleynhans of the SABC say on radio that we were going to discuss the Railway Budget this week and that that could be very boring. I believe that it was on occasion a little boring, but I find it interesting. Then the hon member for Cape Town Gardens rose to speak. He spoke so monotonously that I wished he would get a move on. Suddenly he began insulting me. [Interjections.]

†The hon member requested that we should give a special concession in respect of children and students. In terms of an IATA regulation followed internationally, children between the ages of two and 12 travel at half price. He wanted to know why 12; why not 14 or 16?

Why not 20?

A person becomes entitled to vote at the age of 18; why not at the age of 17? Somewhere a line has to be drawn. The international agreement draws the line at 12. An extension of the age limit will result in a considerable loss of revenue but children who are younger than two years travel free if they sit on the lap of their father or mother.

Like Horace van Rensburg?

One has to put him down on the mat. [Interjections.]

We receive representations from all members of this House from time to time, and I am very sympathetic towards such representations. We are asked whether we cannot give a special price to paraplegics or other handicapped and disabled people, people that we all have a soft spot for. All airlines throughout the world receive such representations, but there is only one reply: We may not, because IATA says that there is no such thing that one can travel for free.

At the time the hon member for Gezina made representations about the little boy who will not grow old. Our reaction was to collect from one another because we could not give him an air ticket free. We now have a system of concessions in terms of which we can give up to 53% discount on the tariffs of our normal economic class under certain conditions. Therefore, if an hon member has in mind a group of paraplegics or a group of handicapped people and the requirements are complied with, we can grant a discount of up to 53%. But no one must corner me in the lobby and say that a good voter of his has a crippled son. To such a person I have to say that we have to make another plan; I cannot give this kind of person special treatment. Dr Grové encounters the same problem.

Just ask Magnus; he will help.

Is his nose running again? [Interjections.]

Order!

The hon member for Bloemfontein East gave a survey of how different the approach of the Opposition has been over the years. I find it tremendously interesting to read Hansard. The other day I was sitting and paging through Hansard to read what was said here 15 years ago. I weighed up those arguments against the arguments advanced today. I think the hon member for Bloemfontein East summed it up in a nutshell when he sketched our problems. There is not a single undertaking which, as he put it, conveys 240 000 people to Johannesburg from Soweto in the morning. There are hundreds of trains moving at that time, but early in the morning they all come to a standstill. When that happens one has capital of R1 800 million standing there unutilized, not earning a cent. Between five o’clock and eight o’clock hundreds of trains are again moving in order to convey 240 000 people back to Soweto. The SATS cannot show a profit on the fare paid by those people, because the capital outlay is too large. It is like a farmer who buys an enormous tractor capable of cultivating 350 ha, but he only cultivates 50 ha. When he has finished cultivating his 50 ha, the tractor is parked under the willow tree, and there it stands until planting time the following year. That farmer should rather buy a postage stamp for 10 cents. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Kroonstad made a positive contribution. He perceives things and he promoted our image. I thank him for the study he makes of this matter.

I have replied to the amendment of the hon member for Nigel. I have no fault to find with his amendment as far as paragraphs (1) and (7) are concerned. We take steps to prevent crowding out at stations, and the interests of all employees are protected, not only those of the Whites. The hon member and, I think, another hon member as well, referred to the conveyance of poisons, and how the tariffs for poisons had risen. He spoke about deworming agents for animals, etcetera. But I can tell the hon member that the tariffs for the transportation of sugar, cheese, butter and margerine have been reduced. I differed with the management as far as margerine was concerned. Moreover, the tariffs for the transportation of coffee, stock-feed additives and poultry feed have been reduced. Whereas the hon member mentioned a list of commodities the tariffs for which had increased, we reduced the tariffs on other commodities. I shall let the hon member have the full list.

The hon member for Rosettenville spelt out clearly the deterioration in Africa, how African countries have been retrogressing. Sir, I am not a racist, but a realist. There are African countries where the Black man governs alone, that have retrogressed because they lack the managerial know-how. I do not know whether I should say this, but one of these countries is in such financial difficulties that they were not even able to pay the hire for our locomotives in advance and let us know that if we insisted on advance payment they would have to send two back. They wanted to know whether we could not help them that month by providing oil for the gearboxes. This reflects the financial situation of those people. We told them to go and borrow money from their pals overseas, and that as soon as they had paid the money in advance we should provide it to them. In the meantime the machinery has to stand there. It is tragic that Africa should retrogress financially whereas we could have done good business if there had been an economic boom, then we should have done better. I hope and trust that the aid they are now beginning to ask from us will assist them. The other day one of them said: “When we asked the Russians for help, they gave us guns, whilst we want know-how and food”. But we can give them the know-how, and we shall assist them. I thank the hon member for his fine contribution.

The hon member for Gezina made a very thorough study of the tariff structure. He mentioned the example of a tariff A2 tin of jam conveyed from Paarl to Johannesburg. The increase in the tariff on the transportation of that tin is less than half a cent. Now the retailer must not say that he is going to increase the price of that tin by 9,4% because tariffs have increased by 9,4%.

†The hon member for Bezuidenhout asked me a question but I could not follow what he wanted exactly. He became somewhat confused with his figures regarding the reduction in personnel, whilst his statement on the under and over-estimation of revenue and expenditure has already been dealt with.

He also referred to the mini-bus, the minitaxi as he called it.

*Mr Speaker, we have before us a motion to introduce legislation on the mini-taxi in accordance with the recommendation in the Welgemoed Report. I should like to dwell for a moment on this matter of the minibuses, the mini-combis, because this is already cropping up overseas. The authorized combi owners number 4 000 whereas the unauthorized ones number 8 400. We are going to introduce legislation here in this regard and then refer it to a select committee. I am prepared to go so far as to say that we must forget about what the city councils of Johannesburg and Durban say. They say that there is a 23% wastage of fuel because vehicles accumulate and cannot enter the cities because there is a growing number of minibuses. I say that we have granted salary increases over a wide field and if a Black man wants to drive from his home to his place of employment, we should not begrudge him that. But then we must have regulations to protect the authorized combi owner. That is what the Welgemoed Commission recommended. The authorized combi owners now come up with the proposal that they should identify their combis as being authorized by way of some identifying mark and by only operating on specific routes. But now the Black commuters, men and women, say that it is pleasant to travel to Johannesburg from Soweto by combi. The ticket was only R2. But now it is R4 on Wednesdays because there are horse races and R4 on Saturdays because there is soccer. They want protection because that combi stands and waits and does not wish to move before there are 16 passangers. Those people are asking for protection. That combi stands and waits for 20 to 30 minutes because it does not move before there are 16 passengers. They ask whether some arrangement could not be made that could protect them as well. I could mention innumerable such examples. It is not a question of my being unsympathetic towards them. The train runs from Dube to Soweto through the residential area, but some passengers have to walk up to 6 km to get to the station. Initially these peole travelled to the stations by combi, but now the combis go direct to the people’s places of employment. I am in favour of that. The buses must of course travel a specified route and Putco contends that these combis are only picking out the eyes. Some of these buses run half-empty and the city council contends that five full combis travel behind these half-full buses and that this causes congestion. In the meantime they do not have enough money to build roads. I have now elaborated somewhat on the combis. I am not prepared to cause disruption. The manufacturers of Toyota and Nissan have approached me and contended that they would lose business. I said that the legislation would be referred to a select committee, so that consensus could be achieved on this whole matter.

If the legislation proposes that a taxi may only carry four people instant of the present nine, will the hon the Minister allow this figure to stay at nine?

I do not agree that a taxi should carry only four people. It is ridiculous and a waste of fuel. But the matter will be referred to a select committee.

*I want to thank the hon member Dr Welgemoed for his contribution. Unfortunately he was not able to be present today.

The hon member for Kimberley North referred to the question of identity documents for pensioners. This is something we are going to introduce on the SATS. However, we cannot give discounts as civil pensioners, for example, get on television licences. However, we are investigating the matter and we shall also introduce an identity document in accordance with which a pensioner can obtain a discount. I am pleased that the hon member put the case of the pensioner so well. The hon member said that it was a green document that the pensioners have now. The hon members of the CP want a white document, but in this case we may introduce a blue card. The hon members of the CP are proud of having a white card, but they sign it with black ink. So what does that help?

Do you want one, Hendrik?

No thanks.

The hon member for Sunnyside made a plea with regard to livestock. I explained to the SA Agricultural Union that we had to increase the tariffs last year by 25% and I said to the management that we would collect an additional R3,6 million in this way. Nowadays we are only transporting 22% of all livestock in South Africa and I asked the SA Agricultural Union whether all livestock could not be transported by road. They said that a person who had a truck no longer used the train. They use contractors or else they use their own trucks. However, a person who wants to transport only six cattle and 20 sheep uses the train in preference to a truck. The contribution of the SATS is 47%, and therefore 53% is dead loss. Therefore this is a Socio-economic service. The SA Agricultural Union has agreed that in these circumstances the tariff may be increased by 9,8%, or else considerable problems will be encountered in this regard. I am the last one to want to make matters difficult for farmers in times of drought. However, the SA Agricultural Union understood this increase and agreed that it was the right thing to do.

The hon member for Newton Park made an illuminating speech about the harbours of our country. That hon member impressed me last year, too, with the study he made of harbours in South Africa.

The hon member for Hercules referred to the financial achievements of the SATS, and I thank him cordially for doing so.

I shall reply by letter to some of the hon members who participated in the debate.

†The hon member for South Coast mentioned two cases with regard to pension benefits. I am prepared to look into the matter. I will be grateful if the hon member will let me have those two letters. I can, however, give him the assurance that it was decided a few years ago to pay, in cases such as those he mentioned, interest on the pension contributions at a rate of 4% or 5%. However, I will go into the whole matter.

*The hon member for Sundays River effectively sketched the benefits enjoyed by an employee of the SATS. I want to thank him for doing so.

The hon member Dr Vilonel explained our medical scheme and drew a comparison between Transmed and the other schemes. Our sick fund benefits have improved. I agree with the hon members that this system should not be included as a taxable fringe benefit. If that happens, we are going to have problems with those of our people who are having a hard time of it.

Both the hon member for Green Point and the hon member for Cape Town Gardens referred to assaults on trains in the Peninsula. There is a sentimental feeling in Cape Town about assaults on trains, and rightly so. We have investigated and discussed the matter and the dissatisfaction in the Peninsula is justified. Dr Grové and his men, Brig Malan and I discussed the matter in an effort to find ways to maintain better security on trains. We cannot have a constable on every station at any given moment. For that, hundreds of extra constables would be needed. Last year there were 869 cases of robbery on trains in the Peninsula as against 666 this year. There were 512 assaults with intent to do serious bodily harm as against 371 this year. Last year there were 474 cases of ordinary assault as against this year’s figure of 369. Last year there were 65 incidents of pickpockets as against this year’s figure of 72, a little more. One must bear in mind that unemployment is widespread and people are entering the area. If I have no work, I go and steal. That is one of our problems. That is why we must exercise control over the influx of people. Last year there were 65 cases of rape as against this year’s figure of 72, whereas last year there were 29 cases of murder as against this year’s 21. In total, there were 2 268 cases of crime last year as against this year’s figure of 1 685. That represents a reduction of 24%.

That is still too much.

I agree, it is still too much. However, I want to give hon members the assurance that we are giving very serious attention to the matter.

The hon member for Umlazi really wiped the floor with the CP’s yesterday. I want to say to Mr Con Botha that he was quite right. I like it when a person argues as he does. One should never be bitter. That is not our type. That is the HNP style. We do not do that. I want to thank the hon member for Umlazi for his contribution on goal-oriented management. It was a pleasure to listen to him.

The hon member for Kuruman raised the whole matter again. [Interjections.] The hon member for Umhlatuzana made an interesting speech about express goods traffic.

You said you were going to answer my questions.

The hon member discussed their amendment all over again. [Interjections.]

You promised to answer my questions.

What did I have to reply to?

I asked specific questions to which you promised to reply.

The hon member asked me who the Minister was going to be. [Interjections.] He asked me whether I would be Minister. [Interjections.] There is still a Third Reading and a Committee Stage. I shall check what questions the hon member asked me. However, we must get on with the “job”. [Interjections.]

†The hon member for Berea said we must move with the times. He referred to the Colin Croft issue. I can go into the details of this, but I do not think it is necessary. We transported 722 million passengers and we had one incident only which the hon member could mention.

Pik Botha also mentioned it.

Pik Botha was in Europe when the incident happened and he read about it in newspaper reports.

After all, Pik Botha knows what is said in newspapers.

Surely he said that he was sorry it had happened. Pik Botha did not put me in an embarrassing situation. He merely stated what had happened. [Interjections.] The hon member for Berea says: “We must move with the times”.

What are you going to do about Coloured and Indian MPs? Are they going to be subjected to segregation?

Any Coloured or Indian can book a place in a first-class compartment of the SATS nowadays. [Interjections.] Therefore there is no problem. If the hon member for Berea says that he prefers not to travel by train if he does not have a Black woman in his compartment, then I can arrange that for him. [Interjections.] However, we are not obliging him to travel in a mixed compartment.

Mr Speaker, may I ask the hon the Minister why it is in order to sit next to a Black or Indian man or woman on an aeroplane at very close quarters, but he objects to this in a train?

The SA Airways is an international service.

No, between Pretoria and Johannesburg.

If a Coloured lady wants to reserve a compartment to herself or, if that is not possible, wants to share it with another Coloured person, but stipulates that she does not want to travel in the same compartment with a White person, must we compel her to share the compartment with a White person? [Interjections.]

*If one wants to travel somewhere, one buys a ticket, and if one wants to travel separately, one can do that. Why should our people be obliged to travel in a mixed compartment? However, the Opposition is now out to make an issue of the whole matter.

You are convincing yourself now.

No. Those hon members have no argument. I should prefer to continue answering questions in the Third Reading.

Mr Speaker, if the mixed Cabinet wanted to travel by train from Johannesburg to Pretoria, could the hon the Minister tell me whether they would be allowed to travel together with the Whites in the same compartment, or would they have to travel in a separate compartment?

Sir, the mixed Cabinet is going to be so busy that they will not be able to travel by train; they will have to travel by air! [Interjections.]

In conclusion, I wish to convey my sincere thanks to hon members for their contributions to the debate. I shall discuss the staff during the Third Reading.

Question put: That all the words after “That” stand part of the Question,

Mr Chairman, I request the privilege of the half hour. To start off with, I should like to respond to the reply of the hon the Minister to the Second Reading debate. I must say that I find that he made at least one quite astonishing statement. He said across the floor of the House that if a third class passenger did not like the high increase he had to pay in fares, he could go first class, there was nothing preventing him from going first class. I want to say that that makes that hon the Minister the Marie Antoinette of the NP.

He never said that.

I shall look at his Hansard again, but I clearly recall that he said they can always go first class, speaking of the third-class passengers. It reminds one of the words “Let them then eat cake”. No Sir, I believe he is the Marie Antoinette of the NP.

To take the matter a little further, I want to refer to his saying he was tired of the Opposition coming back year after year with their amendment complaining about discrimination in the services of the SATS. He then went on to illustrate this so beautifully by talking about eating facilities at some station in Natal. He said that there was a big room and a small room and he swopped them around. Why swop them around? Why not let everyone eat in the restaurant or eating-place of his choice? Why segregate people compulsorily? I want to say to the hon the Minister that we will continue to move these amendments to end racial policies within the SATS just as long as the SATS persists with that type of discrimination.

The hon the Minister also mentioned the question of the Black taxis. I have sympathy with his problem in that regard. He mentioned that there were 4 000 legal taxis and 8 000 illegal ones. Naturally the 4 000 legal taxis want protection from the illegal ones, because there is business available for 12 000 taxis, Black-owned combi’s. This is the position. The business is there. If one restricts the business only to the 4 000 legal taxis, they will be able to put their tariffs up enormously. Competition with the illegal ones helps to keep the prices down. I am not suggesting that one should continue with illegal taxis. What I do say, however, is that it should be made easier for an illegal taxi to become legal. That is the point. It should be made easier for those combi owners to get a licence than it is at present.

In the budget debate so far there has been little mention of the harbour services of this country. I think that only the hon member for Newton Park really dealt in any detail with harbour services. Yet the harbours are the most profitable undertaking of the SATS, having made R231 million in 1983-84 and being budgeted to make R264 million in 1984-85. Some harbours are more profitable than others, but I believe there is room for improvement by means of the application of a more businesslike approach. I therefore want to make two specific suggestions and request that a third aspect should perhaps be investigated.

Firstly, we are well aware of the fact that an enormous number of ships round the Cape every year. Some carry freight for South African ports, but many do not. They round the Cape and are gone, their only expenditure perhaps being a helicopter delivery of mail off Cape Town. It is likely that this traffic will increase with an economic upturn. There is also the possibility of the Middle East situation getting out of hand, resulting in an enormously increased flow of traffic around the Cape. What do we do to encourage these ships to bunker here in South Africa? Nothing! We do nothing. We actually discourage them with our high harbour charges. They therefore do their bunkering elsewhere.

Do you not care about oil pollution?

No, of course not. Do not be stupid. [Interjections.] We have in the past encouraged ships to call …

Do you not care about oil pollution at all?

Is the hon member for Durban North a member of the Opposition? Why does he not go and take his seat in the NP benches right now? [Interjections.] That is where he belongs, Mr Chairman. [Interjections.]

We have of course encouraged this type of usage of our harbours before. Whaling ships were given a discount of 50% off dock dues at one stage. When one considers that the Cape was originally settled as a victualling station on the way to the Bast, why not then continue that role? Encourage traffic through our half empty harbours with low charges, and the food, fuel and water that we could sell would bring in very much needed foreign currency. At the same time it would bring in revenue for SA harbours. While on this subject, Mr Chairman, allow me to mention that the Port Elizabeth harbour badly needs bunkering facilities. Can the hon the Minister not provide encouragement to the oil companies to make these facilities available in Port Elizabeth?

The second subject relating to all harbours, relates more especially to East London and Port Elizabeth. This is the question of shipbreaking. Shipbreaking is a very labour-intensive industry, and could provide a great many jobs in areas with high unemployment, such as East London and Port Elizabeth. Taiwan at the moment seems to handle a very high percentage of this business. They buy the ships in Europe, tow them all the way round the Cape to Taiwan, where they are broken up, providing steel, miles of piping and wiring, electric motors and a host of other useful items. South Africa has the advantage of having to tow those ships only half the distance to Taiwan. This industry creates jobs and profits for the investors. If we are, however, to undertake this type of enterprise, we need, first of all, the co-operation of the SATS.

Patently the use of a harbour for this purpose is highly desirable. Yet, because the ships to be broken up will occupy a berth for a long time, it is obvious that the owners will not be able to afford normal tariffs in South Africa harbours. The berths in our harbours are seriously under-utilized. This, however, is the world trend; it is not our fault. However, let us try to use this fact to our advantage. I should like to hear from the hon the Minister whether he will be open to negotiation on this subject. Will he consider special arrangements? If a consortium is formed to do shipbreaking, will the hon the Minister be prepared to listen to their case and perhaps grant them special tariffs and wharfages at South African harbours?

Now, Mr Chairman, a further subject to which I should like to refer is that of synthol. Synthol is a by-product of the Sasol process. I understand it was regarded as valueless and was pumped down disused mines. However, the Unicorn Line has been using synthol as fuel for their ships for some time. There were initial problems but I understand these have been overcome. The net effect is a considerable saving in fuel costs for Unicorn, and an outlet for a product from Sasol.

What is the SATS doing about this? They have a large fleet of harbour vessels which could perhaps use synthol. Certainly, if Unicorn can, then the SATS should also be able to do so. The saving in costs could be considerable. One also wonders whether synthol could be used by the Railways, for example as fuel for diesel trains. I believe some research and development into the use of synthol might pay handsome dividends for the SATS and for Sasol.

Now, Sir, I should like to move on to the subject of the SA Airways. We are all aware of the losses over the past five years. Yet we persist in flying to most of the capitals in Europe. I have said before that it seems to be the wish of the hon the Minister to see the South African Airways orange tail in as many capitals as possible. Economically, however, it makes little sense. Let me quote the average number of passengers between certain capitals en route of the SA Airways. 747 Jumbo aircraft are used, carrying 227 passengers, I think, on average. During 1983 the average number of passengers carried on certain routes were as follows: Between Zurich and Vienna, 28, and back 66. Between Rome and Athens, 67, and back 95. Between Frankfurt and Amsterdam, 57 and back 66. Between Frankfurt and Brussels, 23 and back 32. This, of course, in a 227-seat aircraft. The last is part of the Johannesburg to Brussels via Frankfurt flight, which itself carried only 95 passengers between Johannesburg and Frankfurt and returned with 123 passengers on average.

When one considers that to all these destinations one has to fly around the Bulge of Africa, one realizes that their degree of contribution to overhead expenses must be minimal. Yet we persist in flying these routes. I suggested last year that SAA negotiate joint ventures with other airlines. I had a reply that discussions had been held but that no foreign airlines could operate services on behalf of SAA “on terms acceptable to SAA”. I wonder whether SAA is making the right decisions in this regard and whether they are not applying an internal monopoly mentality to a competitive international field. Certainly, Sir, there is a lot to be done in this sphere.

I note too that SAA are denying the South African public the opportunity of flying by Concorde. I understand British Air has made representations to use Concorde on the South African run but that SAA has turned them down flat because they do not want the competition that such a fast service will bring. I believe that this is something of a dog in the manger attitude which does not redound to the credit of SAA. As a result the South African public are denied the chance of flying at supersonic speeds as well as a considerably shortened flying time to London.

Before leaving the subject of the SAA I want to congratulate the hon the Minister on finally giving in to all the representations that have been made to him about smoking on the internal services of the SAA. I want to thank him for having now ensured that smoking and non-smoking passengers are well separated. This is of very great advantage to non-smokers and we do appreciate it.

Turning now to catering on the SAA, I must say quite frankly that Marriotts does not seem to be any improvement at all on the SAA’s own catering. I do not know whether they are costing us more than SAA’s own catering but there certainly has been no improvement in the quality of the food. What is more, they are costing the SAA money because I see that in the latter half of last year no fewer than 26 SAA flights were delayed due to the late loading of meals. Are we compensated by Marriotts for these delays? They must be costly. This sort of thing is certainly extremely inconvenient for passengers and yet we are told that there were 26 delays within the latter half of last year.

Finally, I have two questions in regard to the SAA. Firstly, why are we not seeing more air hostesses and ground staff who are not White? My experience is that those girls who are working for the SAA—let us call them the first of the few—are doing an absolutely excellent job. I have had the privilege of being served by them in the air and on the ground and I have found that they are above average in service and courtesy. They are extremely good and I certainly would like to see very many more of them employed by the SAA. I urge the hon the Minister to take action in this regard.

My second question in this regard is whether we are still discriminating against them on the grounds of colour as far as their salaries are concerned. I am aware of the fact that the hon the Minister answered a question some time ago to the effect that there was differentiation in salaries. I should like to know whether that is still operative or whether they are now receiving the same pay. I want to say that if they are not receiving the same pay then I think it is absolutely scandalous.

I want in conclusion to turn to a purely local matter. Port Elizabeth is classified as a metropolitan area in terms of the decentralization policy of this Government. It is consequently left holding the short end of the stick as regards industrial incentives. On the other hand, the SATS does not seem to realize that we are a metropolitan area and require the same services as Cape Town, Johannesburg or Durban. I want to refer here especially to express trains, the special express trains run by the SATS. In reply to a question I put to the hon the Minister earlier in the session, I was told that the other three centres are all interconnected with top class rail transport. Between Johannesburg and Cape Town there are the Blue Train and the Trans-Karoo Express. Between Durban and Cape Town there is Trans-Oranje Express; and between Durban and Johannesburg there is the Drakensberg, the Trans-Natal and the Daylight Sitter. When one reads the hon the Minister’s Budget Speech one also finds that the quality of those services is being improved. I want to quote as follows from the hon the Minister’s Budget Speech:

We do not see any of those in Port Elizabeth at all. I am aware that the service to Port Elizabeth has recently been improved, and from 1 February we have a seven day per week service but we have no special express, and I believe we should have. I should like to ask the hon the Minister to investigate this matter.

Finally I want to refer to what some people call the “red-eye” flights which are to be instituted. I welcome these. The fares are going to be 50% of the normal fare. They are going to travel late at night from Johannesburg to Port Elizabeth to Cape Town and back via Port Elizabeth to Johannesburg. That means, however, that those people who live on the direct routes in Port Elizabeth are going to have planes coming over their heads in the middle of the night. If one lives in a place like Humewood which is a high-density area and the route to the airport is directly over the Humewood area, one will find that the noise is pretty horrific.

I want to ask the hon the Minister the following question. Hopefully at night there is not as much wind. So the planes will be able to take off in any direction. Can we please try to ensure for the sake of Port Elizabeth’s residents that those flights late at night will in any possible circumstances take off in a direction where they do not go directly over a built-up residential area. The same goes for landing. I believe it is most important for the convenience of the people of any area that those flights are handled in a very, very careful manner to prevent the tremendous disturbance and noise factor of these enormous jets.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central kicked off by imputing to the hon the Minister words he never said. The hon the Minister dealt with an argument raised by that side of the House ie that in the case of third class passengers tariffs have been increased a great deal, whereas in the case of first-class passengers they been increased far less. What did the hon the Minister say? According to his unrevised Hansard he said:

The hon the Minister did not say that he should travel first class because he is dissatisfied travelling third class. He said that he also had that choice and could, if he wished, travel first class.

That is exactly the same thing.

No, how can it be?

Nothing prevents him from making a booking on a first-class train. Then the hon the Minister dealt with the various increases.

What, however, did the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central say? He said:

If the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central want to make a contribution to this kind of debate—I think he is capable of doing so—he should firstly listen carefully and not impute words to anyone which could create a totally false impression outside. What is the impression the hon member is now creating. The impression is that the third-class passenger, who in most cases is non-White, is being penalised, whereas the first-class passenger is being benefitted. The hon member did not listen, however, to what the hon the Minister went on to say. Let us take a brief look at the increases. A first-class ticket between Johannesburg and Durban was increased from R57 to R61, whereas the fare for a third-class passenger over the same distance was raised from R20,50 to R24. The first-class ticket is becoming more expensive by 0,5 cent per kilometre and that of a third-class ticket by 0,4 cent per kilometre. The ricket of a first class-passenger is therefore more expensive than that of the third-class passenger whose ticket is 0,4 cent per km more expensive. The hon member says we were discriminating by doing this, but in the case of the increase we are discriminating in favour of low-income group in South Africa. The hon member should be careful when he says that, because he should realize that this is a sensitive matter.

That is why you are hiding it.

No, why should we hide it? This is the incorrect interpretation hon members attach to this increase in order to exploit racial feelings in South Africa.

The hon member asked questions about non-White air hostesses. The fact of the matter is that for a long time now these people have been encouraged to come forward and to offer their services as air hostesses. There are certain standards which are laid down, however, and certain examinations which have to be written. After all, some of these people have had the opportunity to write the examinations and have been admitted to the profession. The hon member is creating the impression, however, that they are being discriminated against because of the colour of their skin. These people are given every encouragement and today there is virtually no post in the SATS, whether that of a clerk or any post, to which a non-White may not be appointed if he has the necessary ability. The hon member can read the reports, and he will find that this is the position.

I want to refer to other remarks the hon member made. He said that we should have a “business-like approach to harbours”, and went on to say that “we do nothing to encourage ships to come here”. This statement was totally unfounded, without any arguments to substantiate it. The hon members in that party are supposedly the great authorities on the international scene, people with contacts abroad. Surely the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central is aware that 1 500 ships are lying idle outside Greece owing to a world-wide recession. Are we supposed to encourage ships which are not even sailing round here. This is the kind of argument that hon member raises. Funnily enough, I have written down figures in this connection. In 1983 we shipped, off-loaded and transferred 73 million tons at our harbours. In 1982 the figure was 85 million tons. So there was a decrease of more than 12 million tons in one year. This runs like a golden thread through the report. It happened in the case of the tonnage transported by train; also the tonnage transported by the airways, and also in regard to passengers. There was a decrease in shipping and off-loading owing to the fact that there was less traffic. This was the result of the world-wide recession. The hon member would have had an argument had he asked whether, if we experienced an economic revival one of these days, or if the Suez Canal were to be closed, we would have sufficient facilities here. I want to tell the hon member that if there were to be an economic revival, or if the Suez Canal were to be closed, I am sure that with the tremendous capital investment which has taken place at our harbours during the past few years, and which we are now underutilizing, we would be able to cope with those ships. The hon member would have had an argument, if we were unable to cope with the situation when there was an economic revival. Then he could have accused us of all manner of things. However, he cannot now exploit the fact that there is an economic recession and say we are not doing anything to encourage ships to make use of South African harbours. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I do not want to participate in the altercation between the hon member for De Kuilen and the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central. I just want to tell the hon the Minister that we on this side of the House have no objection to people of colour travelling first class on trains provided they prefer to do so and can afford to and provided the hon the Minister ensures that they have their own coaches and that this does not lead to the integration of Whites and people of colour on trains. That is all I have to say about this matter at this stage.

There is another matter I should like to discuss with the hon the Minister, one which I believe is of real importance, particularly to a large number of voters in my constituency, Koedoespoort, who are officials of the SATS. In the Second Reading debate a great deal of attention was given to the staff situation in the SATS and particular emphasis was placed on the reduction in manpower and staff. When we look at the annual reports of previous years, we find that this matter did not receive as much attention as it did this year because in previous years we were dealing with an increase in staff. In the previous annual report mention was in fact made of an increase of 4 265 workers on the establishment. At that stage it was stated:

However, since then there has been a drastic reduction in the number of staff. According to this year’s annual report, more than 25 000 employees were involved. This did not happen as a result of dismissals, but as a result of the posts of officials who retired on pension or resigned not being filled. According to the table in which the staff position is analysed, there was an increase in staff in certain categories. The actual turnover was therefore greater than the figure of 25 000 plus which was referred to. What is very important to me, however, is that the reduction in staff of more than 25 000 referred mainly to graded posts in the SATS. Of the 25 250 posts 25 107 were graded posts; 3 846 were White posts, 5 144 Coloured and 16 117 Black, and there was an increase of 6 Indian posts. As regards casual staff there was a reduction of 1 206 White and 67 Black posts, whereas there was an increase of 1 933 Coloured and 25 Indian posts.

This reduction should not be viewed simplistically as if it could simply be afforded. I am convinced that the present economic situation played an important role in the staff reduction. In addition the improvement in work procedure, improved training programmes and goal-oriented management also played a role. In my opinion productivity and effectiveness are also involved. It is true that the staff of the SATS has declined considerably, but the effectiveness and purposefulness of its activities must be maintained and the standard may not be lowered; as a matter of fact it should in fact be higher in view of modern methods which are being applied.

There are a few questions to which I should like the hon the Minister to reply, and because these are not difficult political questions like those we asked earlier which the hon the Minister skirted around without actually furnishing any specific replies, I trust that the will reply very specifically to these questions because they are important to us. In the first place: Was the appropriation made in the present budget for staff remuneration calculated on the present establishment, or were certain posts which have been frozen in the interim, also included? Was it taken into account that according to the given figure more than 12 000 people retired from the service during the past year and that provision had therefore been made in advance in the Budget for a further reduction in staff?

I assume and accept that the Management has already completed a study in connection with the real minimum manpower requirements of the SATS and is therefore aware of the minimum number of staff required to operate the SATS effectively and purposefully in future. Is the hon the Minister prepared to tell us what the minimum labour force is with which, according to this study, the SATS can retain its effectiveness in future? After all, manpower plays a very important role in the SATS, and if there is a constant reduction in staff, this process has to reach saturation point at some stage. It will have to be halted sometime because the effectiveness of the SATS has to be maintained.

It is important to me, for the sake of my people, to know what the minimum number is with which the SATS feels it will be able to function effectively in future. There is a third question which I consider to be important with regard to the reduction in staff, in spite of the training and all the efforts which are being made to raise the standard of the staff. Is account being taken of a possible revival in the economy during which there will be a greater demand for the services of the SATS? If that revival occurs, and does so sooner than some people expect, will the SATS be able to cope with such a revival with a drastically reduced staff? [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, at the moment I have nothing to say to the hon member for Koedoespoort, and I should like to refer briefly to the speech the hon member for Sunnyside made in this House yesterday.

The speech of the hon member for Sunny-side will probably be known in the annals of this House as the absurd speech. The hon member for Sunnyside would seem to have developed the ability to distort things and put words into person’s mouth, into a fine art. He would seems to understand the art of twisting what someone else has said.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: Is the hon member for Gezina entitled to insinuate that the hon member for Sunnyside has twisted a person’s words?

It has been ruled in the past that that expression is unparliamentary and I ask the hon member for Gezina to withdraw it.

Mr Chairman, I withdraw it.

The hon member for Sunnyside quoted only one sentence from my speech. I am now quoting what he said when he referred to me:

He then attacked me because I was supposed to have said that one should not budget for a surplus. Such a statement is ridiculous. It is childishly naïve to make such a statement. I argued about certain words in the hon member for Nigel’s amendment, namely that the CP will not vote for the budget unless the hon the Minister ceased to budget for a deficit. This is what was at issue and I am not arguing about it. With reference to that I maintained that this would only be possible if tariffs were increased. In fact the hon member for Nigel censured the hon the Minister for having increased the tariffs. As has happened so frequently in the past, one moment the hon members of the CP want something and the next moment they do not. These are the kind of contradictory arguments they put forward. First they want a surplus to be budgeted for and then they do not want tariffs to be increased. Surely this is absolutely absurd.

The hon member for Sunnyside went on to say that at one stage I was so conservative that I almost joined the HNP. In addition he accused me of making personal attacks. The fact that the hon member for Sunnyside wants to associate me with the HNP is worse than a personal attack. As far as I am concerned, it is an insult. I am not in the category in which three Pretoria MPs found themselves during the 1981 election when the leader of the HNP, Mr Jaap Marais, issued a Press statement in which it was said that he and his party would not put up candidates in certain constituencies in Pretoria because the incumbent members would themselves join the HNP in the near future. [Interjections.] Those members were the hon member for Sunnyside, the hon member for Rissik and the hon member for Waterkloof. How true that statement proved to be! The hon member then went on to associate the HNP with conservatism. As far as I am concerned conservatism does not mean racism. I am essentially conservative and I am not apologizing for this, but I refuse to be associated with the racist HNP. That party and the Conservative Party are now joining forces and the HNP will eventually be absorbed into and swallowed up by the CP to such an extent that very soon there will be no difference between the CP and the HNP.

Before I discuss a few matters pertaining to my constituency, I want to refer briefly to a wonderful topic, namely the ATKV. This cultural organization was established in 1930 for the Railways officials of the time. At present there are just over 59 000 registered members who are officials of the SATS. As is the case with the other cultural organizations the ATKV arose from a need which arose among the Afrikaners in the early ’thirties to help Afrikaners to maintain the Afrikaans language. That is why we also find it stated in its objectives that the ATKV was established to promote the use of Afrikaans inside and outside the ambit of the SATS. Another objective that was specified was to promote Afrikaans art and culture among its members. As a result various funds were established to achieve these objectives. To meet the requirements of female members the wonderful movement, Die Vrou-en Moederbeweging, was established. One also thinks of the Tiender-en Amateurtoneel project which attempted to extend and promote Afrikaans drama at schools. It was a splendid project. It is a privilege to see what has been accomplished in that sphere. There are also other projects, but unfortunately I do not have the time to refer to them now. This project and the other projects are undertaken and implemented with enthusiasm. The ATKV is a wonderful organization. It is a part of Afrikaner cultural activities of which we take cognizance with extreme gratitude. Its management also does wonderful work and we want to thank them for this. Absolutely nothing should be done which would be detrimental or harmful to our existing cultural organizations. The Afrikaner is proud of his cultural heritage and his cultural organizations. We are also proud of the ATKV. The existing cultural organizations cover the entire range of Afrikaner culture.

New opportunistic toadstool cultural organizations, conceived in a sitting-room or in a garden, have no right to exist in South Africa. To my way of thinking additional new cultural organizations appear very much not to have been evaluated according to requirements. They appear to me to be more of a movement or an attempt to generate funds which are to be used for purposes other than cultural ones. Perhaps—and all that can happen is that what I am saying now will subsequently be proved correct—this is being done to generate funds for two bankrupt political parties, the HNP and the CP, and of course for the sake of the little positions which will be handed out as well.

Mr Chairman I ask the hon member for Gezina to forgive me for not carrying on in the same vein in which he has spoken. I do, however, have my own specific points which I should want to draw to the attention of the hon the Minister.

It concerns a subject which has already received a lot of attention. That is the matter of competition with the private sector and the problem of uneconomic socio-economic services, and also the matter of what I should like to call bookkeeping and accounting. I want to return, first, to what the hon the Minister said in his Second Reading speech. He said he liked competition but then all parties rendering services should be able to compete on equal terms. I agree, but surely we have now reached a degree of consensus, I believe, amongst all parties in this House, that socio-economic services should in future be funded by the State.

Today the hon the Minister said in addition to this that private hauliers should pay for their infrastructure. By that he meant of course the roads on which they travel. I am quite sure that the hon the Minister will agree with me when I say that I firmly believe that the private hauliers would not mind paying a few cents a litre more for their diesel provided that that money went into the building of better roads for them. I see the hon the Minister is nodding his head. We are in agreement on this point, Mr Chairman.

The point I should like to put to the hon the Minister is that I believe he should look at some of the services performed by the SATS, and that he should really decide whether those services are in the best interests of the economy of transport. He made mention of the hauling of kraal manure, and said that the SATS had to cart this at an uneconomic rate. I want to put it to the hon the Minister as follows. I am sugar cane farmer, and I am entitled in terms of the Sugar Act to the filter press cane from the sugar mill, which is a very good fertilizer. I am entitled to it. It is mine. I own it. However, because of the high transport cost to get it to my farm I prefer to use inorganic fertilizers because taking all costs into consideration, including transport, they are cheaper. I want to know from the hon the Minister whether he is going to grant me a special rate so that I can have this substance transported to my farm. I believe this is something we should really look at. I do not see why the SATS should be saddled with costs of this nature.

Having said that, I want to return to the question of those people who travel free on rail. They are called free pass holders or concession holders. One could even use the term freeloaders. I believe there is a tremendous degree of freeloading on transport at the present time. The point I want to make is the following. As I said the other day, revenue is an important positive aspect of any budget, and I believe we have to look to passenger traffic for more revenue. I do not believe when we talk about competition that the hon the Minister can hide behind some of the protective regulations he has, such as those promulgated in terms of the Road Transportation Act, in order to carry some of these services offered by the SATS. I spoke to a man who has been in the transport business for over 40 years. This happened about a week ago. This man has a huge fleet of vehicles, and he made the following statement. He said he like competition with his colleagues because he could meet it. However, he added, he could not meet the unfair competition from the SATS.

The hon the Minister may think that he has to contend with unfair competition in the field of road transportation but road transporters firmly believe that they have to contend with unfair competition from the SATS.

I want to get back now to the question of the free pass and concession holders. I want to tell the hon the Minister that I do not believe that he can hand out this rather discriminating largesse and pass on the cost to the tax-payer, or add additional economic burden on the private hauliers. I think the time has come for these journeys to be properly costed. The hon the Minister told us today that the SATS were being fully compensated for some of the free passes. He also told us that the Franzsen Committee was looking into this matter. I asked the hon the Minister a year ago—in fact, I think I also asked him the same question two years ago—what the statistics were in regard to the number of people travelling free by rail, and I want to ask him that question again because I do not believe we have got all the statistics in this regard. I know that there are many kinds of passes. I believe that junior and senior officers receive a black leather pass, that certain senior officers receive a grey leather pass, and that an ordinary worker receives a linen-backed service pass. What gives me great cause for concern, however, is that we hear stories about the number of new passes that are being issued. I understand that the number of certain passes issued has increased by 50% over the past year or so. I also believe that there has been a re-issue of black and grey leather free passes to former senior officers who are now on pension, some of whom retired 15 years ago. I believe that this perk has now been extended to them. I am not opposed to employees of the SATS receiving certain perks. However, I want to say that I do not believe that the hon the Minister can continue with a rail transport service that is being increasingly burdened by people receiving these perks and the cost therefore being passed on to the tax-payer or the private hauliers. I am also concerned to discover when I look at the published statistics that in 1978-79 in relation to first class main line traffic there were 300 000 journeys with a total revenue of R4,6 million in respect of which the average revenue per journey was R15,33. However, in 1981-82 when the number of journeys undertaken had increased to 1,2 million, revenue had only doubled to an amount of R9,6 million and the actual value per journey had dropped from R15,33 to R8 per journey.

Shorter journeys.

The hon the Minister says “shorter journeys”. I would like the detailed statistics. It could be that more people are travelling free because of the various free passes being issued. My argument for some time in this regard has been that we have to control this sort of thing. These free pass journeys should be charged to the pension fund or to the department concerned. We as members of Parliament have a parliamentary free pass and our journeys are charged to Parliament. In this regard I may say that I believe that the number of passes that are now being issued to enable people to travel free on SA Airways is also increasing and so Airways could be in trouble in a few year’s time. However, I do not want my air travel as a member of Parliament to be borne by SA Airways. I believe that Parliament should be charged and that is in fact what happens, and I say that this procedure should be extended to cover all users of free passes. I have here a receipt from the Via Rail Canada Incorporated on which it is clearly indicated that when a person pays cash it is shown on his ticket. However, if he has a credit card or a free pass a computerized code number is used and his journey is charged automatically to his particular department. If the hon the Minister will introduce something along the same lines, we will have a far better understanding of exactly what it is costing the SATS to carry people free by rail and air. I feel that this is something that really needs to be looked into because we are talking about revenue. For example, I should like to ask the hon the Minister to give us statistics in regard to the new Metroblitz service between Johannesburg and Pretoria. How many of those passengers are paying for the service? As far as the Drakensberg Express or the Blue Train is concerned, how many people are paying for their journeys and how many people are using their free passes? If the latter, it means that they also receive free meals, free bedding and so forth. I am really arguing this matter in the interests of the hon the Minister because I want to see him obtaining far more revenue for the Railways. We talk about the evils of cross-subsidization. Well, is this not another form of cross-subsidization? I think that the poor old Railways should get far more revenue for the passenger services it renders. Incidently, I pronounce “railways” somewhat differently because I happen to have been in Canada for 10 years of my life, and it is one of those hangovers I have of my old Canadian accent. [Interjections.] That accent has become part of my English and I read comments about it in the Press. The hon the Minister has also referred to it, but I do not mind. As I said, I should like to see the Railways get far more revenue, and I believe that one way of getting it is to check up on exactly who the freeloaders are. There are other freeloaders too and they are commuters who do not pay. I want to know how much attention is paid to collecting fares at railway stations, at the barriers. I hear many stories about the irregularities that are going on. For example, I know that a person can get on a train at Simon’s Town where he gets a ticket. He can then jump off a bit closer to Cape Town and still have the uncancelled ticket in his pocket. He can use that ticket again later in the day or the next day. I put it to the hon the Minister that I believe he has to pay far greater attention to looking at ways and means of tightening up on the control of the revenue on the SA Railways. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Amanzimtoti spoke chiefly of free passes. He addressed the hon the Minister directly, and I think the hon the Minister will reply to him. He was concerned, feeling that a greater amount of revenue should be obtained from passenger services. In the course of my speech I specifically want to attempt to show what progress has been made in extending these services.

The SATS is indeed a business undertaking. It must earn all its revenue for itself and with that cover all its working expenditure. It must also maintain and replace all its own assets. It must make its own arrangements for the loan funds necessary for improving and extending its infrastructure. The objectives of the financial policy of the SATS is to ensure that the organization remains a viable and properly equipped organization so as to provide for the transport needs of a growing South African economy at an economic cost.

Owing to the economic recession that has manifested itself, the SATS must compete on a tremendously depleted transport market. The total volume of revenue-earning traffic, for example, decreased by 16% and the revenue-earning passenger services by 4,1% during 1982-83. In these difficult circumstances clients insisted on rapid transport at competitive rates, whilst private hauliers offered their services at almost unreasonably low rates in order to hold on to business.

The SATS therefore had to ask itself two important questions: Firstly, what did it want to achieve and how was it going to do so? In an effort to compete effectively with other modes of transport, the SATS must therefore continually consider new methods and proposals to meet the demands. As a national transport undertaking, the SATS consequently began adopting a dynamic approach in order to improve the quality of its services and to adapt to the changed circumstances. Owing to a lack of time, I shall actually be confining myself merely to the improvement and marketing of passenger services, to which the hon member for Amanzimtoti also referred.

Since the Passenger Services Section was established, concerted efforts have been made to restructure mainline and suburban passenger train services. Always mindful of the fact that travelling costs are of paramount importance to the travelling public, especially in times of an economic recession, it has become an essential part of the marketing strategy to exploit the market more aggressively. To this end every effort had to be made to utilize available accommodation on passenger trains. With the marketing of passenger services a new approach was therefore adopted and the following marketing policy formulated: A client-orientated approach; improved information to passengers; a door-to-door service; improved travelling times; the introduction of tourist trains; an increase in non-White passengers and more contract trains.

The following are examples of these new concepts in trains: The Lala class is a service with sleeping facilities for Coloured, Indian and Black passengers at fares between those of ordinary second and third-class fares. Accommodation can be booked up to five months in advance to ensure that each passenger has a place to sleep. Four transit coaches with seats similar to those on aircraft were built and are in use in the Trans-Natal. The coaches are air-conditioned luxury coaches and background music is provided. Journeys in these coaches are very popular. The daylight-sitter train is also very popular and runs between Johannesburg and Durban at a competitive fare of R27 per single journey. The coaches only have seats, and this service, which only operates during the day, is very popular because the passengers like to watch the landscape going by. The special old-fashioned steam train service, the so-called Tootsie, introduced between Mossel Bay and Knysna, appears to be very popular amongst holiday-makers and is regularly fully booked.

The 40-off plan for persons of 60 years of age and older is still increasing in popularity. During 1983 almost 27 000 40-off cards were issued, which brings the total number of cards issued to more than 78 000 since the scheme was introduced. To encourage members of the club to recruit other members, a free return ticket to any place of their choice within the Republic of South Africa and South West Africa is given for every five members recruited during the period August 1982 to October 1982. In addition, the cardholders who introduced the 25 000th and 30 000th members earned for themselves, and for the new members, a free trip on the Drakensberg and also free accommodation for four nights in Durban.

A family concession was also introduced. Any group of three or more people can rent a first-class or second class compartment at the price of two and a half full-price tickets. This improvement is more in line with the concept of “rent a compartment” and has resulted in more passengers making use of this concession.

The Metroblitz high-speed express train, to which the hon member for Amanzimtoti also referred, departs from Pretoria each day at 6.45 and arrives in Johannesburg at 7.27. It again departs each day at 17.10 from Johannesburg to Pretoria, where it arrives at 17.54. It is, in other words, a journey lasting approximately 42 minutes between these two cities. The Metroblitz offers umparalleled first-class comfort to both White and non-White commuters and consists of eight passenger coaches and two electric units. Metroblitz cardholders are assured of seats because they can book in advance, and no passengers are allowed to stand on this train.

Greater contact has also been made with outside bodies to advertise the contract train concept. Limited success has thus far been achieved, and the more the private sector realizes that in certain cases it is cheaper to transport large groups of people in contract trains, the more will the concept be extended. Several facets have also been offered in co-operation with the private sector, for example one for a journey in the Drakensberg and accommodation in a hotel of the Southern Sun hotel group in Durban.

After discussions between the SATS and the Department of Transport and also representatives of various private bus companies, it was decided to issue a combined rail-bus ticket. The issuing of such a ticket will furnish passengers who make use of both bus and train transport with a one-stop service. These tickets can be obtained at ticket offices on stations where passengers normally buy their train tickets. It will then not be necessary for them to waste further time at the bus company to obtain a bus ticket. To enable passengers to travel to and from their residential areas with the most convenient train service possible, it has been decided to calculate fares on the basis of the shortest possible route, even if they use another route. This results in traffic flowing more smoothly.

In addition, the Publicity and Travel department’s marketing publicity and liaison services have been extended and their marketing efforts intensified so as to increase their share in the tourist market. That the SATS is engaged in an aggressive marketing strategy, and is achieving great success with that scheme, cannot be doubted. That is why we want to congratulate the hon the Minister and the Management sincerely on this achievement.

Mr Chairman, the hon the member who has just taken his seat dealt with specific matters which I will not deal with. I have a number of other matters which I want to put before the hon the Minister.

In the first instance I want to comment on the hon the Minister’s reply to the Second Reading. Last evening the hon the Minister gave an undertaking to the House—it is recorded in the Press, as well as in Hansard, obviously—that he was going to spell out very clearly the Government’s position on race and discrimination regarding the passenger services of the SATS. I think it is well known and accepted by all the hon members in the House that the hon the Minister perhaps has the best sense of humour of all of us. That is much appreciated. I certainly have enjoyed many debates which have been spiced by humour and goodwill. However, I want to say to the hon the Minister in no uncertain terms that discrimination on the grounds of race or colour is no joking matter. I think he did both the SATS and this House a great disservice today by his lack of reply to certain specific points raised by both the official Opposition and the CP. I want to suggest to the hon the Minister that in one sense, and in one sense only, the fact that we have a CP is a very good thing. [Interjections.] I say it in the sense that they are constantly reiterating old NP stances, which really do not deserve to be supported in today’s world. However, they do that and they put the hon the Minister on a spot.

On the other hand this party is constantly asking questions about moving away from discrimination. The hon the Minister found himself squeezed between these two. I think it is high time that he took his courage in his hands and told the House—I hope he will before the end of this very long debate on transport affairs—quite clearly where he is taking the SATS in terms of race discrimination in South Africa. I think he owes it to the SATS and more so to hundreds and thousands of people who make use of its services. To use an example, however funny or clever it might be, of a group of people travelling between Johannesburg and Pretoria, to evade the real issue of blatant discrimination which takes place in South Africa on station after station, does, I think, a grave disservice to this country, never mind to the SATS and this House. I want to appeal to the hon the Minister, whose contributions are so valued in many other ways, to come clean and to state very clearly what the position is. There is going to come a time very soon when he is not going to be able to duck any longer.

We are talking about a new dispensation. My hon colleague, the hon member for Berea, by way of interjection asked what the Government was going to do about so-called Coloured and Indian members of Parliament.

I replied to that.

No, the hon the Minister did not. His reply was one more evasion.

You did not like the reply.

Do you want a Prog reply?

No, I merely want an honest, straighforward answer. I do not want any evasions, nor do I want any jokes. If there are people travelling from Mitchell’s Plain to this House, is the hon the Minister going to tell them that they can only travel in certain segregated coaches? I do not want to hear the answer: “Oh, they can travel first class for Coloureds or first class for Blacks”. If a member of this Parliament travels from Mitchell’s Plain or from Athlone on the train to Cape Town, how is he going to travel? Is he going to be forced to sit with one particular group, or is he going to have a choice like I have? There is nothing sinister about the question. It is a straightforward question and it deserves a reply. [Interjections.] I would say that the majority of people in South Africa would commend this hon Minister, who often makes very courageous and refreshing statements both outside and inside the House, if he would come clean on this particular issue and say that the SATS is going to move away as rapidly as possible from discrimination. I believe that it would be a service to South Africa, and I also believe that it would delight most people in this House, including hon members on that side. I therefore challenge the hon the Minister to do what he said yesterday he would do, and that is to tell this House where he and his department are going in terms of race discrimination.

I want to raise another issue, namely that of safety and security on trains, on suburban lines in particular. Recently, on an overseas trip, I travelled on a number of trains in Germany, and on one particular trip I was astounded at the extensive provision made for telephonic services on that train. As a matter of fact, on a train speeding at 120 kph, I was able to phone my home in Cape Town. [Interjections.] There is nothing funny about security on trains. I am wondering if we cannot learn from the Germans in this regard. I was travelling on a train from Rondebosch to Simonstown last Friday evening. We all know that during weekends in particular our train services can, to say the least, be quite difficult and challenging. In the particular carriage in which I was travelling I notice a sign which gave the telephone number one should dial to contact the police. That is a very good idea, but what does one do? Does one write down that number while being hit over the head, so that one can jump off at the next station and try to telephone the police? [Interjections.] I think the hon the Minister should go one step further and at least investigate the possibility of installing some sort of alarm system or telephonic communication on our trains so that, whenever there is any suggestion of an attack, at least someone can alert the authorities or the police so that action can be taken. It is not the perfect answer nor the total answer, but I hope that it might be a small contribution towards resolving the whole question of safety and security on our trains.

The other point I want to raise is an entirely different one. It is quite a big subject; so, obviously, I do not have the time to deal with it fully now. The SATS personnel, like other public service employees, got a 12% increase from 1 January. I have had contact with some employees who tell me that certain selected groups within the SATS got considerably more than that. I am not sure what the amount is, but they seem to suggest that there have been fairly massive increases for certain senior personnel within the SATS. It may well be so, and I will be the first to agree, that there are many within the SATS who deserve to be rewarded and that if you want to compete with private enterprise you have to do something about it. However, I want to warn the hon the Minister that if the increases become too large and the gap between the vast majority of the employees and those at the top becomes too big, you are going to have trouble on your hands. I would like to have some answer from the hon the Minister as to what has been arranged with regard to the assessment of top personnel and what the position is as far as their conditions of service are concerned.

The final matter I want to raise, is a small one, but also a very important one for the people who live in my constituency, namely the railway station in Pinelands. Pinelands has very heavy rains during winter, as well as very gusty winds.

Do you allow Blacks on your station?

Yes. We allow them on the station and on the trains too. There are very limited facilities for people to shelter on the station and I want to ask the hon the Minister to ask his officials please to look into the situation there.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Pinelands says it is a good thing the CP is here, and I have heard the CP members say the same of the Progs. It is perhaps a good thing for the two parties to keep each other busy trying to find out whose presence here is “the best”. Meanwhile the Government and the Minister can go on governing the country in such a way as to serve the best interest of all the population groups in South Africa.

The hon member for Pinelands also asks the hon the Minister to state where he and the Government are leading South Africa. But no one who has eyes to see and ears to hear can have any doubts about where the Government is leading the country. One of the offshoots of the answer to that question about where the Government is leading South Africa, is that for the umpteenth time during the past few years the PFP is suffering the labour pains of a new policy. They would do well to give more attention to that and concern themselves less about how the Government is governing the country.

I should like to try to answer one aspect of that question. I want to deal with the SATS’s policy regarding the relations between colour groups. Particularly as far as labour relations are concerned, the SATS policy in regard to the relationship between employer and employees of all race groups on the one hand, and also mutually amongst employees of various colour groups on the other, is based on a specific philosophy. That philosophy is that sound relations are firstly an insurance against frustration and consequently labour unrest. They are also a very good investment, the dividend being greater and stable labour productivity. The SATS is consequently very much aware of the importance of doing everything in its power sound relations in a variety of spheres, again on the one hand between employer and employees in general and also mutually amongst employees of the various population groups on the other. This is being done deliberately and intentionally, though normally indirectly and unobtrusively. It is perhaps specifically because it is being done indirectly and unobtrusively that we have already made such big strides.

I want to deal with a few measures adopted by the Government to improve these relations. One of these is the narrowing of the wage gap. This is a very important factor in the process of promoting sound relations. In accordance with Government policy, in recent years when there have been general salary adjustments, the salaries of non-Whites have been adjusted by a greater percentage than those of Whites, and this has been done with a view to narrowing that gap. An important fact that the House would do well to take note of is that in accordance with this department’s planning, and subject to the availability of funds, it is expected that equal pay for equal work will apply for all employees of the SATS as early as 1986. It is very interesting to note the figures indicating what has already been done in this connection. The position from 1976, is briefly as follows: In June 1976 the salaries of Whites were increased by at least 10%, those of the Coloureds and Indians by 12½% and those of the Blacks by at least 15%. So various further increases have since been granted. Each time the increase in the case of the Whites has been less than that for the non-Whites. As I have said, it is estimated that this will result in complete equality by the year 1986.

Then I also want to refer to opportunities for promotion. Apart from the improved salary relationship between Whites and non-Whites, the appointment of non-Whites to graded posts has also had a salutary effect on labour relations. As far back as 15 November 1983 there were no fewer that 5 746 posts filled in this way. So graded posts that have been filled by non-Whites. In addition, 12 809 Coloured and Indians employees and employees from the different Black people were employed, for example, as carriage and wagon assistants, locomotive men, technicians’ assistants, train marshallers and ticket collector. There are also 1 206 Coloured and Indian employees and employees from the different Black peoples permanently employed in some 21 different grades to serve the needs of the specific ethnic groups in the areas in which they predominate. Altogether 3 420 positions in various grades for Whites in which Coloured and Indian employees and employees from the different Black peoples had been employed temporarily for a period of four years and longer, have now been allocated on a permanent basis to these groups.

A great deal of progress has also been made in the sphere of collective bargaining. Because a high premium is placed on maintaining sound labour relations, the SATS believes that all its employees, both White and non-White, should be entitled to unimpeded participation in collective negotiation and bargaining on matters affecting their own conditions of service and livelihood. Apart from a number of trade unions for Whites, there are already two for Coloureds, one for Indians and one for Blacks. The trade unions are all affiliated to the Federal Council of Staff Associations of the SATS, and at least once a year the council holds discussions with the Management and with the Minister on matters of common concern. This system and the SATS’s attitude and policy in this connection serve to guarantee sound group relations, serve as a safety valve, are an assurance against frustration and consequent labour unrest. Over and above that, as I have already said, this is a very good investment with a view to better labour productivity.

I also want to refer to the house ownership echeme. Both the Coloureds and the Indians have, for a long time now, been incorporated in the house ownership scheme of the SATS and share in all the privileges attached to that scheme. Recently, however, there has been a step forward in extending this to Black workers as well. That scheme came into operation on 1 February. For the Black employees it is a totally new field they are now entering. There are approximately 30 000 Black workers who legally qualify to purchase properties with the help of loans from the SATS. Thus far the reaction to these services having been made available has been somewhat disappointing. One shortcoming, a possible source of criticism, is that dwellings cannot be purchases on behalf of workers in the homelands and in the independent national states. The reason for that is that as far as the SATS is concerned such loans cannot yet be guaranteed there. Serious efforts are being made in this connection, however, in order to eliminate the existing problem so that in time that need can also be met.

I have only referred to a few examples. Each of them, however, has made a significant contribution to the SATS’s endeavour to ensure sound labour relations in the service, and it is also a good investment, not only front the point of view of labour peace, but also from that of labour productivity.

Mr Chairman, the depopulation of the rural areas in general, more specifically, the depopulation of the Northern Transvaal rural areas, even more specifically the depopulation of the area to the north of the Soutpansberg, is a matter that should receive very urgent attention and should be countered in every conceivable manner, and together with that its repopulation should be stimulated.

I think we must tell ourselves in South Africa that the land must remain populated; must remain occupied. Nor do I hesitate to say that the White land must continue to be occupied by Whites. I believe that the SATS could play a very important role in stimulating the repopulation of the rural areas. In that connection I should like to mention to the hon the Minister a single point in regard to a specific aspect in my constituency. The Waterpoort station lies just to the north of the Soutpansberg, and for many years now—for more than 40 years—two road transport services have operated from there. One runs on Mondays and Thursdays towards Pontdrift and the other runs on Tuesdays and Fridays to Alldays, returning the same day.

The Alldays route traverses an area that is fairly densely populated, and it is indeed the shortest direct route between Alldays and the railway line; Waterpoort station. For some or other reason an investigation is now specifically being instituted into this Alldays route. For what reason I do not know, and at whose request I do not know either. May I just, at this stage, declare my interest in this connection so that there is no confusion about that? I am also served by that specific route. It was with great consternation that the Vetfontein Farmers’ Association took note of this investigation. Perhaps wrongly so. Perhaps prematurely. The fact remains, however, that there is an investigation in progress, and it is apparently concerned with shifting that route. I think that if the hon the Minister could just give the assurance that that route will not be tampered with, this would immediately bring great peace of mind, because as I have said, I think that route traverses one of the most densely populated spots behind the whole Soutpansberg range, at least in that area that is served, and it is the shortest and therefore the cheapest route for the transportation of goods from Waterpoort to Alldays.

There is indeed another possible improvement that one could consider, in viewing the routes, and that is to link up the two routes and make them into a circular route, with approaches made alternately from one side and then from the other. So much for that aspect.

I believe that part of the railways’ problems in connection with deficits is the fact that its turnover, its volume, the volume of its turnover, is not always sufficient. The reason for that is that in regard to the profitable loads it has to compete very strongly with the private sector. As the hon the Minister has said, it is sometimes a socio-economic service that the Railways has to furnish to the public. I understand that it must compete with the private sector which can very often transport the goods more quickly and more cheaply. It therefore loses a portion of its market to them. I think we all know the hon the Minister as first and foremost a businessman and know that as such he understands the fact that at times a turnover with a smaller profit does eventually yield larger revenue—providing, of course, one’s turnover is big enough.

These days it costs a cattle farmer beyond the Soutpansberg R100 to slaughter an animal on the Pretoria market. If that fanner sends 20 head of cattle by bus, an amount of R2 200 is deducted from that cheque before he obtains it. I think the Railways could quite possibly win back a portion of its market if it could introduce a sliding scale of rates, not only for cattle, but for all aspects related to stimulating agriculture in the remote parts of our country or making it more attractive; in others words, not only in regard to despatching products to the market, but also the rates in regard to furnishing, to those producers, the relevant necessities in the production process. I think that attention should be given to a type of sliding scale that should be introduced to make it easier for those producers in the remote areas to compete in the face of the burden of rates they have to carry.

There are also other aspects in regard to turnover to which I want to refer. When I was at school, and also later after I left school, we had weekend return tickets and pupil and student concessions. The weekend return ticket gave someone who wanted to go visiting for a weekend a reduction in fare. It introduced a cheaper fare for someone who began his journey, for example, on Friday evening and completed it before Monday at 12 o’clock. There were also concessions for pupils, for university students and, I suppose, for college and technicon students. Since one has an underutilization of passenger services on certain stretches of line, there ought to be no reason why the re-introduction of such discount fares cannot be considered. The same applies to return tickets. In the past, if a passenger bought a return ticket, instead of two single tickets, he obtained a small reduction. I think this would stimulate turnover, and I want to suggest that the hon the Minister consider it.

In the last few moments I have felt I just want to say, in regard to the Pretoria-Messina section of line that it has one of the most convenient long-distance train services in existence. One leaves Pretoria late in the evening and reaches one’s destination relatively early in the morning. One could even consider having people arrive at a destination a little earlier as far as the northerly route is concerned. Perhaps the train could leave a little later and yet still reach the destination at the same time on the southerly route.

They must put water in the trains.

The hon member for Pietersburg says they must put water in the trains. Sometimes there is water in the trains. I myself have no complaints in that connection, but one could perhaps look into that aspect.

In conclusion let me point out that along that stretch of line there are still many young mendicants making a nuisance of themselves at various stations and stops. I think one should look into this aberration, not so much from the point of view of those who use the railways, but specifically in the interests of those young mendicants themselves.

Mr Chairman, today it is a very great pleasure for me to speak after the hon member for Soutpansberg has spoken because I think he made a very interesting and soundly argued speech, particularly about a matter that is of fundamental importance to us all, ie the depopulation of the rural areas and possible steps to bring about their repopulation. It just so happens that at a later stage in my speech I shall be linking up with the hon member when I come to certain standpoints concerning decentralization. I shall therefore not elaborate on that aspect any further at the moment.

The hon the Minister’s Budget speech and the very well-produced annual report of the SATS contain very interesting and stimulating data, but what it specifically underlines, as far as I am concerned, is the complexity of this gigantic business undertaking of the State. With an establishment of 242 404 employees drawn from the entire spectrum of our population, this national haulier must provide the entire country with an efficient transport service. That is why criticism of the administration and management of such a large undertaking is very easily and readily found, as can be seen from some hon member’s speeches.

The object of this organization is to provide for the transport needs of a growing South African economy. Dr Grové, as General Manager, summarized the objective in the following formulation: “To provide an economic transport service which satisfies the needs of the country”. In support of that objective the following management philosophy was formulated: “To create an environment for the organization and its employees in which its members generate effective action towards achievement of the organization’s goal.”

We can see the results of that very clearly this year in the dramatic reduction in expenditure. According to the report of the SATS Board this was achieved in the following way: By a reduction in staff without anyone being dismissed, the rationalization of the SAA services and the cancellation of certain uneconomic train services, an improvement in the services rendered by the transport services, a curtailment of Sunday time and overtime and also, where possible, the deferment of capital projects. The introduction of this management philosophy was therefore palpably extremely successful. So here it was not a case of “pushing paper around”. Therefore the management and all employees should receive the highest praise from us all, and because of this management strategy the SATS should move ahead into the future with confidence.

I myself can attest to the effectiveness and efficiency of this strategy, specifically on the basis of an example in my constituency. For years now we have been struggling, with the Uitenhage town council negotiating with the Railways to have the workshop moved from the central business district of Uitenhage to the Cuyler Manor industrial area. I also raised this matter in this House. Recent developments in Uitenhage necessitated addressing the matter with the utmost urgency, and high-level discussions took place. The hon the Minister went to Uitenhage to ascertain the facts surrounding the workshops and the relevant piece of land. At the time those discussions were held, one of the officials of the town council alleged that for 30 years now the town council had been negotiating with the Railways and that in his opinion it would take another 30 years before the matter was resolved. Fortunately for us in Uitenhage we had “Purposeful Management”, and I can therefore say today that the matter was dealt with by the department with the minimum of red tape at all levels. It was a great pleasure to see how smoothly and without any delays this decision-making process moved along. The direct result of that was that the second stage of the removal of the workshops was replanned and will now be concluded in three phases as an integral part of the Cape Eastern and Cape Midlands electrification project. During phase 1 a locomotive repair complex for 300 type 7E locomotives will be completed. In the second phase the back-up production workshops will be completed, and the programme will be concluded with the erection of a stores complex.

In this year’s Capital Budgets, under item 454, the estimated investment is R10 363 million and the envisaged investment for the years ahead is estimated at R18 million, R26 million, R16 million, R8 million and R4 million respectively. The outcome of this decision and action on the part of the SATS is that the municipality can now plan the 9 ha of land occupied by the SATS and employed in the interests of the entire community. One can therefore say that the SATS and the municipality of Uitenhage, co-operating as they did, found an effective solution to this problem.

The SATS, as a State business undertaking, is also used by the South African Government in a back-up role to achieve the objectives of its strategies and policy relating, amongst other things, to relations with neighbouring States. Co-operation with neighbouring States takes place in many ways, and to the benefit of all parties concerned. Thereby the Government can give substance to its policy of good and sound neighbourliness, which in recent times has resulted in the world’s imagination being gripped by our peace initiatives.

Another very important Government objective or strategy is undoubtedly its industrial development plan. Great value is attached to decentralization and regional development. Here, too, the SATS plays an important role as Government agent. One of the incentives relating to the Port ElizabethUitenhage area is a 20% railage rebate on outgoing goods manufactured in the particular region, and under certain circumstances on incoming traffic. The industrialists immediately obtain this benefit with the loading of the goods, with the SATS only subsequently being compensated. That is an important part of the incentive package offered by the Government.

Unfortunately the mayor of Port Elizabeth’s recent choice of words in statements he made about the Government’s implementation of the decentralization benefits was not of any benefit to our area, but rather the opposite. The mayor’s criticism of the decentralization policy would be far more inclined to dissuade investors from establishing themselves in Port Elizabeth, whilst I am sure it is everyone’s wish that prospective investors should be encouraged to establish themselves in our area. The Government is undoubtedly in earnest about having the decentralization policy succeed, and there are encouraging signs that this is already in the process of happening.

Today, however, I want to make a serious appeal to the hon the Minister about his organization looking with greater urgency at its own decentralization aspects. The SATS should—and can—give greater significance to adopting the strategy of decentralization as a policy or standpoint. The Port Elizabeth-Uitenhage area has already been identified as a very high priority area and here, too, the SATS must do its share. This could be done without in any way affecting the SATS and would very definitely, economically speaking, play a great stabilizing role in the Port Elizabeth-Uitenhage area.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Uitenhage confined himself to matters involving his own constituency and also elaborated on the role of the SATS in Government strategy. In my visits to neighbouring states I myself have seen how this is done and how much it is appreciated.

I want to associate myself with the hon member for Pinelands’ plea to the Minister please to furnish replies, today or tomorrow, to questions put to him here, particularly from our side of the House. Today we obtained very clear replies from the CP about their view of the transportation of various races by the SATS. They made it clear that they believed that apartheid on trains should remain in force. According to them there must be separate first-class facilities for Whites and people of colour. There must be facilities for all groups, but they must be separate. I should very much like to know whether they also feel the same in regard to aircraft. If it is not physically possible to make use of separate aircraft, are they in favour of separate areas in the aircraft for the various races? We must obtain clarity about that. [Interjections.] I understand that it is part of their policy. We on this side of the House do not, of course, agree with that. I want to tell the hon the Minister that the official Opposition’s policy in this regard is very clear. In terms of our policy first-class is not a question of colour, but rather a question of any passenger with a first-class ticket being able to travel first-class. The same applies to second-class and third-class. We are not at all in favour of any separate facilities as far as our transport services are concerned.

The hon the Minister’s department permits mixing on aircraft. Why can this not be extended to trains as well? It is very clear what the PFP or the CP stands for. I cannot speak for the NRP, but I think that in this matter they agree with PFP policy. We are now entering upon a new dispensation for this country, however, and reform is taking place. I am of the opinion that the hon the Minister must definitely tell us this evening what his party’s policy in this connection is, particularly with a view to the future. [Interjections.]

I should like to go further. I want to tell the hon the Minister that I greatly appreciate the work the SATS is doing. I grew up in a town where there was a big railway station. During my school days I made contact with railway workers and their doctor, because as a result of my interest in medicine I very often, as a child, accompanied the railway doctor on his visits to the various small stations or sidings, as we called them at the time, in and around Beaufort West. In this connection I want to associate myself with the hon nominated member Dr Vilonel …

Indirectly elected member.

Yes, pardon me. Even at that time there were complaints about the railway doctor, for example that he did not want to be called out at night, that he did not come regularly or that it was difficult to get hold of him.

When the new medical aid fund, Transmed, was established in 1982, I was one of the first to thank the hon the Minister for it. In my opinion its establishment really was a very good thing, particularly because SATS employees now have a free choice regarding a doctor. I consequently approached the department—I should like to thank the officials for their help—to give me a few facts. I want to associate myself with what the hon member Dr Vilonel said, although he did not fully discuss the matter in depth, analysing all the facets we need here today. The general aims of a medical aid scheme are to protect the members from excessive costs for medical services, medicine or permissible aids supplied to a member within the framework of the rules and regulations of the scheme to restore health and bodily functions to what they were prior to an accident or prior to the advent of an infirmity.

What is the aim of Transmed? Transmed aims at being of maximum benefit to its members without making the financial burden on the SATS an exceptionally heavy one.

The first question one asks oneself is: Who are the members of Transmed? At a glance one would think that all SATS employees were. That is not quite true, however, and I should like to go into the matter in detail. There are two groups—and again this is the problem I have with the hon the Minister—ie White and non-White members, and there are differences as far as they are concerned. There are 106 008 White members; 47 747 pensioners and 2 500 orphans and others. This gives us a total of 156 000. In addition there are 228 691 dependents of employees who are members, which gives us a grand total of 385 000 White members of Transmed.

Again I want to associate myself with the hon member Dr Vilonel who said that the benefits members obtain are excellent. An unmarried member pays R4 to the fund and then pays a nominal amount of 25% for consultation and 25% for medicines, whilst pensioners pay only 10% for these services. I shall be referring to this again at a later stage.

Today the hon the Minister said that he protected everyone who worked for the railways. Those were his words in reply to a question from the CP. Coloureds, Indians and Black people, however, have only limited medical services at present. The intention is that at a later stage these workers will be fully incorporated in the overall Transmed benefits. My immediate question is: When is this “later stage”? This forms part of the gradual adaption, in phases, to achieve equal conditions of service, but is it also necessary, in an organization like Transmed where one is dealing with sick people, to operate in phases, and what is being planned in this connection?

I should like to inquire whether the Coloureds and Indians, who are now going to participate in the new dispensation, are going to be satisfied with unequal participation for their people in a medical scheme at present. Who are the Coloureds and other people of colour who are members of Transmed? There are 143 385 employees. In Natal there are 5 569 women and children of Indian employees entitled to benefits—and the NRP, in particular, would do well to listen to this. Then there are 20 678 women and children of Coloured employees entitled to benefits, as well as women and children of Coloured and Indian employees outside Natal who are also entitled to benefits. In total there are 175 337 Coloured and Indian employees and their dependents who are members of Transmed. The total number of members who have full or limited facilities under the scheme therefore stands at 560 000. Of this number, 175 000 are non-Whites and 385 000—about twice as many—are Whites.

It is quite interesting to look at Transmed’s expenditure. The total expenditure for the financial year was R130 million; that is what Transmed cost the SATS. That is a tremendous amount, and if Transmed is not one of the biggest medical schemes in South Africa, it is certainly one of the biggest.

Order! I am sorry I have to interrupt the hon member, but his time is expired.

Mr Chairman, I merely rise to give the hon member an opportunity to complete his speech.

Sir, I thank the hon member for his indulgence.

Transmed costs the SATS R130 million per year. I have said previously that the aim of Transmed is to furnish services in the cheapest way possible. I want to know from the hon the Minister if this is indeed being done. Of the R130 million, R118 million is spent on the 365 000 Whites, whilst R11,5 million is spent on the 156 000 non-Whites, ie one-tenth. I now want to ask the hon the Minister once again when this is going to be eliminated. The administration costs, as far as the Whites are concerned, amount to R10 000 or 9% of the total, whilst the administration costs for the non-Whites amount to R3 619 000 or 32% of the total. There is no time to go into this in more detail, but why is there this big difference in the administration costs? Are there two management groups, one for Whites and one for non-Whites?

In the short time still available to me, I want to tell the hon the Minister that in my opinion there are two problems in regard to the Transmed scheme. I think that the service this scheme provides to members is a good one. A newspaper report indicates that 12 doctors in Pretoria are going to cease working as general practitioners, one of the reasons they advance for this being that medical funds delay the payment of members’ accounts for up to six months. The hon the Minister was also a businessman and will know that this is a long time to wait for one’s money. I have personally found that Transmed is one of the main culprits in this regard.

The second problem I want to deal with is one that was brought to my attention by the Pharmacy Board. A member of Transmed can obtain the medicines prescribed for him in three different ways. Firstly Transmed has approximately 30 of its own dispensaries in the major centres. In addition it also has dispensaries who are contracted into its schemes. Thirdly a member has the right to have his prescriptions made up by a private pharmacist. That all sounds very reasonable, but there is nevertheless a problem in this connection. When a member goes to a Transmed dispensary, he must pay 25% of the prescription. The same applies if he goes to a pharmacy which is contracted in, but when he goes to the private pharmacy, he must pay 30% of the prescription. In the case of a pensioner, the corresponding percentages are 10%, 10% and 15%. A member is therefore penalized if he goes to a private pharmacist. That is not, however, all that important. What is important, is that if a member goes to a private pharmacist, he must first pay that pharmacist himself. I know what Transmed is trying to achieve by doing this, and I agree with them that they must attempt to curtail expenditure. The Pharmacy Board has, however, asked me to clear up the matter with the Minister. Transmed’s pharmacists obtain their medicines from the large companies. The question I want to put is whether those pharmacists pay general sales tax on those medicines. The hon the Minister is nodding his head, and I am glad to know this. The second question I want to ask is whether a member of Transmed who goes to a Transmed dispensary pays general sales tax on his medicines.

Yes.

So there is no attempt to circumvent GST in order to make medicines cheaper for those pharmacists or for the members.

The role that the SATS plays in providing health services for its personnel and in preventing accidents is a very important one. If one notes that annually there are 722 million passengers travelling by rail and more than 3 million passengers travelling by air, one gets an idea of what it is all about. In the past two years the railways has not lost a single passenger as a result of an accident, whilst the SA Airways has not lost a single passenger for years now. This attests to outstanding work being done by the SATS. In this connection I want to dwell for a moment on train passengers who, for other reasons, are experiencing problems. This afternoon I listened carefully to the hon the Minister’s treatment of the problem of passengers on Peninsula trains. I think the hon the Minister knows that people do not only fear for their physical safety, but are also afraid of the possibility of losing their money and other possessions as a result of what thugs can do. The hon the Minister has safeguarded aircraft passengers by having control points at airports. I realize that there are many more stations than there are airports, but I am nevertheless of the opinion that the SATS could make greater efforts at safeguarding train passengers. I know some of these people and know how they feel about having to take a train home in the evenings. I seriously want to ask the hon the Minister to take steps to safeguard these people.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Parktown and the hon member for Pinelands must not think I am stupid. I do not care what was stated in this morning’s Cape Times about mixed trains. They must read what I said last night in Hansard. I referred to what I would say—and have in fact said—this afternoon. The hon member for Pine-lands asked me whether I would oblige the member of Parliament who lives in Mitchell’s Plain and is a Coloured, to travel to Cape Town in a Coloured coach to attend Parliament. From Mitchell’s Plain it can only be a Coloured coach in any event. The hon member is setting traps for me but I am not so stupid as to put my foot in one. Now I want to ask the hon member whether I must oblige the Coloured from Mitchell’s Plain to travel with me. Must I tell him: “You are proud to travel with your own people, but you must come and travel with me”? Must I say to the White man: “You do not have a choice today; I am compelling you to travel with a Coloured”? Surely this is entirely the wrong occasion to make an issue of that. There will be many debates in this House during which that can be raised. I say that the SATS does not want crowding out. The fat cats who ask these questions do not travel by train at 11 o’clock at night.

†Let them go and talk to the City Council of Durban and to the people travelling by bus at 11 o’clock in the evening, old ladies who have to work. Those people say: “Please protect us. At 11 o’clock at night we come out of a café, having worked the whole day, and have to get home. Please protect us.”

*Sir, the hon members opposite have no grasp of the problem.

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon the Minister a question? As I understand him, he does not want to oblige anyone to do anything. However, is he going to compel the Coloured and Indian Ministers to sit in the same Cabinet? [Interjections.]

Sir, this Government has good intentions, but all that party seeks is political gain. The hon member for Pine-lands has just said that it is a good thing to have Conservatives here. [Interjections.] I spelt out the matter clearly. What more can I say? The hon members of the PFP want me to say that we shall abolish all separation on trains totally. If a Coloured Minister comes to Cape Town by train, I will book a Coloured compartment for him. I should travel in the same coach in a White compartment, or in a coach that I had booked, but I do not want to travel with him and his people throughout. I say that we adhere to the situation of separate residential areas. Must I spell this out again? Let them go and say to the people of Sea Point that we are throwing everything open. I did that and those people got the fright of their lives when I said that we were throwing the place open. [Interjections.]

Order!

In any event I shall now proceed to reply to the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central.

†The hon member asked me to encourage the use of port facilities. Bunkers are supplied by the oil industry. Ships calling for bunkers enjoy a 50% rebate on piloting and 48 hours’ exemption from berth dues. Ships wishing to bunker are also exempted from wharfage charges. In addition, harbour services are rendered to such ships at below cost.

The hon member also asked me about express trains to Port Elizabeth. Since 1 March 1984 a daily train between Port Elizabeth and Johannesburg operates on a schedule which is comparable to that applying on the Cape Town and Durban routes.

*Thus we are helping the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central. That, of course, is a mistake we make, Mr Chairman. However, apparently the management like him. [Interjection.]

†The hon member for Port Elizabeth Central further inquired about the night flights. The built-up area in question can unfortunately not be avoided as the approach to the specific airport there is the only one equipped with an instrument landing system. Late night flights will be undertaken by Airbus, an aircraft which is considerably quieter than the Boeing 737.

Mr Chairman, can the hon the Minister tell us whether it is the intention to expand the instrument landing system at the Port Elizabeth airport so that it can be used on other runways as well?

Mr Chairman, it is quite possible. I cannot, however, reply to the hon member off-hand. I will go into the question though and reply to him in due course.

*Mr Chairman, hon members put so many questions to me. The SATS is such a large business enterprise that I really cannot expect members of the management sitting here to have all the answers ready.

[Inaudible.]

Does the hon member want to travel?

No.

Oh? [Interjections.] Mr Chairman I thought that the hon member for Parktown perhaps had to go. If that had been so, I just wished to reply to his questions first. [Interjections.]

†I will, however, reply to all the questions put to me by the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central in writing, just as I did last year and the previous year and the year before that. For the next 10 years, while I am still the Minister of Transport Affairs, the hon member will receive his replies from me in writing. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Port Elizabeth Central further asked certain questions about the low load factors on flights of the SA Airways between certain destinations in Europe. On all those sectors the variable costs of operating in terms of passenger revenue as well as freight revenue are fully covered. Mr Chairman, the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central submits a written question to me asking me what the passenger capacity is of a flight between Athens and London. I furnished him with a reply to that question. On that same aircraft we also carry a substantial load of freight and freight is a profitable undertaking. Owing to the turn-around pattern of European flights, withdrawal from these sectors will not increase crew or aircraft productivity. Withdrawal will place SA Airways in a weaker competitive position as no easy direct connections will be offered from these centres. The whole system is interwoven and one cannot simply abolish certain of these undertakings.

The hon member also referred to the matter of Marriotts. The opinion I have from certain people is that this is a better service. We will, however, go into all the matters raised by the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central.

The hon member also wanted to know whether we were still discriminating in respect of salaries. That is definitely not the case. I shall return to the matter of salaries later when I reply to the hon member for Parktown, who spoke about the medical scheme of SATS.

*This brings me to the hon member for De Kuilen. The hon member for Port Elizabeth Central immediately jumped up here this afternoon and said that I was the MarieAntoinette of the SATS. I ignore that, of course. However, the hon member for De Kuilen settled his hash. I have my Hansard with me. I have examined it. I never said that if people did not have money to afford a third-class ticket, they should travel first class. After all, I am not a Prog. I am not stupid, Mr Chairman. [Interjections.] Really, it was not very nice of the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central to say anything of the kind. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Koedoespoort put several important questions to me. I appreciate the fact that the hon member is concerned about what will happen when there is an upturn in the activities of the SATS, and its staff has dwindled to such an extent that they will not be able to deal with the new flow of freight. We take that fully into account, of course. Moreover, the hon member realizes, of course, that when the amount of freight drops, one cannot continue to employ 279 000 employees. We were compelled to reduce our employees by between 37 000 and 38 000. After all, it would be pointless having 300 truck drivers here in Table Bay harbour when there are no ships loading and discharging cargo.

If you had answered my questions in the correct sequence, you would not have spoken such nonsense now.

Mr Chairman, I am being very polite to the hon member for Koedoespoort. Now he wants to know why I am not answering his questions in his sequence. Surely I can choose my own sequence. I want to give him correct answers. If I were to make use of his sequence, he would not understand in any event. [Interjections.]

The hon member also asked whether the salary account for the financial year was based on the present number of staff. The answer to that is no. Now the hon member is not listening. That is my reply to his first question. He also asked what was regarded as the minimum level of staff. In answer to that I want to say that all relevant factors are taken into account because a simple minimum is not a realistic concept. All factors have to be taken into account. In some divisions there must be less reduction and if there are resignations, they must be supplemented as far as certain levels are concerned. The hon member also asked whether we had taken the economic upturn into account. I have already replied that if we have an economic upturn then we must be sure that we do not have too few staff because we should then be caught unawares, and we must be able to handle the traffic offered.

†The hon member for Pinelands asked about a shelter on Pinelands station. I want to tell him that Management will look into this question. He also spoke about better communication between train staff and passengers. The hon member for Parktown also referred to this matter. I say that it will be a happy day when we are able to say that the incidence of assaults on trains has dropped. I should very much like to ask the hon member for Houghton to do me the favour one evening, just she on her own, of catching the ten o’clock train on a Saturday evening to Mitchell’s Plain.

Do you know, I would not sit in a train going to St James at 12 o’clock at night on my own. [Interjections.]

No, the hon member can travel on a mixed train on a Saturday night to Mitchell’s Plain. [Interjections.] Plans are in hand to establish radio control between the train driver, the conductor and the train control centre in the System Manager’s office which is also connected with the police.

The hon member for Pinelands also referred to the higher increases for senior staff. I want to tell that the customary parity as far as salaries are concerned between SATS and the Public Service is being maintained. I am referring here to the top echelon which does not consist of many people. In this regard we are maintaining parity with the Public Service. If we do not do so, we shall lose them. However, we reached an agreement with the staff associations in regard to the 12% increase and also in regard to a 12% increase for pensioners. We also gave an undertaking that if business improved we would review the entire salary situation because we do not want to lose any staff to the Public Service.

The hon member for Amanzimtoti asked about the value of free passes on the Railways. The value of free passes is calculated annually and accounted for when determining profits or losses. For 1984-85 the value of free passes amounts to R35,5 million. Last year it amounted to 29% of the total loss. The hon member was quite correct. It is essential that we investigate the whole of the free pass situation. The percentage of free passes on the Metroblitz is 25%.

That is very high.

Yes, it is very high because so many Railway employees make use of the Metroblitz and all of them are travelling on a special pass. There are no free passes on the Blue Train.

May I please ask a question? May I ask the hon the Minister whether a pass-holder can travel on the Blue Train.

No.

And pay the difference?

No. There is no discount on the Blue Train. Everybody travels full price. Perhaps the hon member will know that the Blue Train is fully booked six to seven months in advance. We do not give any pass-holders a discount on the Blue Train.

*The hon member for Gezina made a very commmendable reference to the ATKV and the Vrou-en-moeder-beweging. I am very pleased that he praised the two organizations.

†In a further reply to the hon member for Amanzimtoti I should like to say that it is true that there should be competition between SATS and the private sector. I can point out a lot of detail about unfair competition on both sides.

*The hon member for Smithfield made a very praiseworthy speech about the marketing policy and strategy that is aimed at getting us more business. I appreciate the hon member’s contribution. The hon member for Sundays River spoke about investments in order to have labour peace. One again I want to thank him for his contribution.

The hon member for Soutpansberg shares the concern of all of us about the depopulation of the platteland. That was a considerable source of concern to me when I was Minister of Agriculture. If the hon member suggests, with regard to the road motor service, that at the Waterpoort station the road motor service take over the twice-weekly route to Pontdrif and Alldays, that could afford a solution, but then it must be a circular route. Perhaps such an investigation could be instituted. I can give the hon member the undertaking that when we effect a change in a constituency, we consult the MP. [Interjections.] The hon member was friendly with me and I do not want to attack him. He need only smile when I look at him; that is all I ask. We shall consult him with regard to the matter he referred to.

Much of the rural traffic will be recovered if a sliding scale is used, as far as the hon member is concerned. We shall go into this suggestion if we can attract business thereby. As regards his reference to weekend and scholar concessions, I wish to point out that we have just announced several concessions relating to aircraft, members of the Defence Force, and so on, but we can go into the hon member’s suggestions.

They were traditional concessions.

We can go into that again, and then I shall contact the hon member.

As far as his constituency is concerned, the hon member for Uitenhage is like the dripping of a tap. Because it is a railway centre, he is constantly contacting me about improvements at Uitenhage.

Where is he?

I never ask where a man is any more. The hon member is now asking where the hon member whose speech I am replying to is. The hon member can leave the Chamber if he wishes. I shall never ask where he is. [Interjections.] I think the hon member for Uitenhage is on the telephone telling the people of Uitenhage that I am now replying to his speech. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Parktown referred to the medical scheme for the Blacks. We introduced that scheme and discussed it with them. The new scheme is now costing us R15 million or even R18 million more than the old scheme and there are several things that are wrong and still have to be rectified. After the hon member became an MP he persisted in asking me to ensure that we got away from the railway doctor. We did so, and now we have Transmed. There may be faults, but I wish to point out to the hon member that the staff associations of the Blacks, the Coloureds and the Indians say that we must first have parity in salaries and in the meantime we must implement the medical scheme gradually. The whole scheme involves expense. They would prefer us to subsidize this matter from the income of the SATS.

Mr Chairman, I want to put a question to the hon the Minister, because I do not understand what salaries have to do with the matter. An employee who does not have dependents pays R2, whereas one with dependents pays R4. I do not believe that that is such a major problem. The SATS pays the amount of R130 million to Transmed. The membership fees are for the auxiliary fund which in March last year amounted to R4 million and in December, R8 million. The total cost is borne by the SATS.

When we hold discussions with them, they say that we must firstly rectify these things because the Transmed scheme is subsidized with railway income. The hon member knows that a subsidy is paid and that members only pay R4 per capita. I know that the Pharmaceutical Association sent a letter or a telex to the hon member for Parktown. They are opposed to railway dispensaries. Last year railway dispensaries saved the quarter million employees of the railway R8 million. There are pharmacies that milk the people. There is sometimes a difference in price of up to 50% between pills sold at railway dispensaries and goods sold at ordinary pharmacies. The Railway Staff Association want us to retain railway dispensaries.

What about railway dispensaries …

We are considering it.

It represents expenditure for private people as well.

That is true, but the railway dispensary does not sell cameras, toilet paper and … what is that stuff you smear on your lips?

Lipstick.

Yes, lipstick. They do not sell that kind of thing; only medicine.

I shall reply after dinner this evening to the questions asked by the other hon members.

What about the long period between treatment and payment?

We have already gone into this matter. There were isolated cases where doctors had to wait up to six months, but I think that three months is the ideal period. However, the management has now given me the assurance that this waiting period is only one month. I do not know what all the problems are, but this scheme is still at a stage when it is still growing. However, I shall go into the matter and reply to the hon member by letter.

Mr Chairman, it is always a pleasure to listen to the hon Minister with his pleasant and healthy sense of humour.

At this late hour of the day, I want to try to give a new dimension to this debate. When one arrives at big international airports like Heathrow, Kennedy or Orly, one looks for the flying springbok painted on the high orange tail, and when one sees it, one glows with pride, and then one knows that one is not only proud of it because it belongs to one’s country, but because it is highly regarded internationally as a result of its outstanding record of service and safety. One is proud of the flying springbok because it has not yielded to boycotts and because it has overcome boycott campaigns. It is advertisement for South Africa today. What is more, it is an ambassador for South Africa on its distant travels to 26 countries.

We are sincerely grateful for this excellent service rendered to South Africa by the flying springbok, but there is yet another way in which the SAA could serve South Africa. I want to tell hon members how it could do this. Every year, thousands of people, including people in prominent positions, businessmen, sportsmen, immigrants and a number of tourists, are brought to South Africa. Over the past year, the SAA has brought 360 000 people to South Africa. On their way to this country on those aircraft, those people spend long hours doing nothing. Such a flight can be very boring when it is a long one. I want to ask the SA Airways whether the flying springbok cannot play the role of an information service as well. Many passengers on these flights are ignorant about South Africa and would very much like to know more about this country which is their destination. We know the hon the Minister as a practical person. I want to ask him, therefore, whether he would not have a few tape recordings made about South Africa which could be offered on one of the 12 channels which usually provide passengers with entertainment on our big jet aircraft. The contents of those tapes should not be propagandist, but fascinating and interesting. Dana Niehaus or Kim Shippey, or some such person who has a lively narrative style, could be used for this purpose. Different languages could also be used alternately on these tapes, for the convenience of the passengers who are either Germans or French or some other nationality. In the course of the same talk, the new immigrant or the visitor could be welcomed to South Africa. After all, we all know how pleasant it is to be given a friendly welcome in a strange country. We know that the South African Airways has a good publicity service, but our information service would probably be very keen to assist in preparing these particular tapes which could be made available during flights.

I come now to the magazine Vlieënde Springbok—Flying Springbok which is provided on our aircraft for passengers to read. It is a beautiful magazine. I want to congratulate the hon the Minister on this magazine with its fine contents. It is extremely successful and contains fine articles on cities, towns and places in South Africa and elsewhere. It is excellent reading. However, there is one thing that I miss in this magazine, namely factual articles about our country itself, about the spectacular progress that is being made here in so many spheres and also about the potential of the country, its wealth of gold, diamonds and other minerals, as well as its wealth of human material and the ingenuity of our people. This could be very good reading for people who are coming to South Africa for the first time to find out for themselves what is going on in this country.

On a domestic flight I once read an article in the magazine In die Wolke about the stamina and endurance of the Afrikaner breed of cattle. It was wonderfully moving. It brought a lump to the throat of one who had grown up on a farm. It told the story of an Afrikaner cow that had protected her calf with her horns for days against wolves and hyaenas. When people arrived on the scene, she was in a sorry state from being mauled by the wild animals, but the calf was still alive and unharmed. I do not know how the hon the Minister can go on farming with Frisians and cross-breeds after this beautiful story about the Afrikaner cow. That article was a winner. This is the kind of article which can be very effective because it illustrates the invincibility of our country and its people and animals and their ability to survive.

As far as domestic flights are concerned, the South African Airways also has a golden opportunity to introduce our country to visitors. Some commanders on our domestic flights have the commendable habit, when flying over the Verwoerd Dam, for example, of drawing passengers’ attention to this fact. I want to ask the hon the Minister whether this information cannot be amplified. When there are groups of foreign visitors on those flights, they can be told more about the area over which they are flying and about the sights of the country. They could also be told about interesting episodes from the history of our country, for example: “We are now flying over the Voortrekker route.” However, such accounts must be interesting, stimulating and descriptive, and could even be provided by the commanders of the aircraft, because there are some of them who would do it very well indeed; otherwise it could be recorded on tape and played back. I am convinced that visitors would enjoy this very much and would appreciate being given a description of the Boland just before landing in Cape Town, for example. It would have the additional advantage that our own people on those flights—especially the hon members of the Opposition—would hear the facts about our fine country again, and I am sure that they, too, would appreciate it.

In these times, when onslaughts are being made on our country, everyone must help to build the image of South Africa, and if there is one organization that is well placed to do so, it is the SA Airways with its flying springbok. It could carry our country’s fine and beautiful message all over the globe. I courteously request the hon the Minister, therefore, to consider this humble request which I have put to him this afternoon.

Mr. Chairman, in the few moments available to me, I will not be able to react to the hon member who has just resumed his seat. A colleague of mine will do so later in the debate.

I want to deal with two matters this evening. One is a matter that I have raised by way of questions, and it concerns the facilities for our national servicemen and our troops who have to travel by train to the operational area. I should like to start by expressing appreciation for the increased air and rail concessions which were announced by the hon the Minister. This is something that all parents of servicemen will welcome. It is a long battle which started long before this hon Minister became Minister of Transport Affairs. The files in regard to the battle which I waged to get travel concessions for servicemen go back many years, and now that these concessions have been increased, I should like to place my appreciation on record for it.

Whilst we have taken that step and are now looking at that picture through the right glasses, I believe that through pure thoughtlessness we are forgetting some simple things which we could do to make things more pleasant for those men who are on their way by train to spend three or six months or even a year under unpleasant conditions. Instead, they start their journeys to the operational area in an unpleasant way. I do not believe that this is necessary, and believe that it is due to pure thoughtlessness on our part. This matter has been raised before but nothing seems to have been done about it.

I do not know whether the hon the Minister is aware of the fact that a passenger train travelling from Windhoek to Grootfontein takes exactly 22 hours—from 20h10 until 18h10 the next day. That means 22 hours on rail. [Interjections.] I got these figures from the booking office. The trip from Windhoek to Grootfontein takes 22 hours, and for three hours of this the passengers wait at Otjiwarongo. On that whole journey there is nowhere where the passengers can get a jug of hot water to make a cup of tea. There is nowhere where they can get anything at all, until they got to Otavi, which is a mere 70 km from their destination. The replies to the questions I asked the other day, were: No. Facilities are not provided on trains. No, there are no facilities on stations, no refreshment facilities, no boiling-water, etc. Only at Otavi are these facilities available. Apparently consideration is being given to provide similar facilities at Otjiwarongo, where I repeat the men have to wait for three hours. They get rations, excellent rations. I wish we had rations like these when I was in the Army. The rations include 19 grams of soup, 60 grams of Pronutro, 10 grams of sugar, two lots of tea and condensed milk. But no water. There is no way of getting a pot of hot water on the whole of that 22-hour journey. On the station at Otjiwarongo they cannot open a waiting-room so that they can get some hot water. They sit with tea, soup, Pronutro and other dry rations, but they cannot get hot water until they are 70 km from the end of their journey. This is unnecessary and I would like to appeal to the hon the Minister to do something about it. We have had similar trouble at other stations. This sort of thoughtlessness is really unnecessary. On 24 February 1984 I asked a question about the cloak-room on Windhoek Station, but to date I have not received a reply to that question from the hon the Minister. All I asked was what hours the cloakroom on Windhoek station were open on Sundays and what it costs per hour to run it. I have not had an answer to a simple question which I put on the Question Paper on 24 February. If the hon the Minister cannot give me the answer, I will give him the answer to that question. That cloakroom only opens in the evening when the train is leaving for Grootfontein round about 8 o’clock. The troops who come in in the morning from South Africa or from Walvis Bay have to see to it that one of their members sit on that station guarding their kit for the whole day because they will not open the cloak-room for half an hour to let them put their kit-bags into the cloak-room so that they can store them there fore the day and spend the day in Windhoek and get them out before the train leaves. They can get them out, but they cannot get them in and so they have to take it in turns to guard their kit on the platform all day long. The cost to open the cloak-room would only be for one hour of overtime per day on the Sunday. These are things that are unnecessary and I ask the hon the Minister to do something about it.

In the few moments left to me, I would like to follow up the hon member for South Coast’s plea. I want to join him in making a plea for employees of the SATS who have been dismissed because of offenses relating to alcoholism and refusing to accept transfer, etc. As long ago as September 1981 the hon the Minister, in reply to a question of mine, said that the position was that as from January 1981 those people were having their total contribution to the Pension Fund refunded plus a percentage for each year after 13 years service. That is accepted as what is fair, but from 1965 onwards the hon the Minister’s predecessors vetoed the granting of an annuity to every single person dismissed under those conditions. The select committee on Pensions recommended that annuities be paid to some of these people, but the Minister at the time vetoed it and by doing so went against the decision of his own party in the select committee. The Minister, who has the final decision, has consistently refused to grant those annuities until January 1981. I had been fighting this for years before that. What I am appealing for is that, if that is fair now then that is what that handful of people who are being discriminated against should now be entitled to—people who in addition to their dismissal have been fined R14 000, R15 000 or R20 000 in interest which should have been paid to them should at least be given half their annuity or the interest which is due to them on the contributions they have made. As I have said, they have been sacked because of a disease, a sickness. The hon the Minister himself has acknowledged that that is recognized by the SATS as an illness, a disease. It is accepted as such, but people are dismissed and then the Minister uses his power to block those people from getting anything except their own contributions to the fund, and that after 20 to 25 years’ service. The list of people involved is a short one. I have been able to trace about a dozen or slightly more. As far as I can find out, it concerns 15 people at the most. Surely we can do justice to those people now that later cases are being treated properly. I am talking about people who in terms of section 11 of the Act have been penalized in that the SATS refused to pay these annuities. Reduced annuities were only paid in terms of section 12 to some employees … [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I did not make a contribution during the Second Reading debate, so I want to begin by congratulating the hon the Minister on his Budget in the Committee Stage. We know him as a good businessman who makes a success of an undertaking. I am praising him, Sir, because I should like to put certain requests to him.

During the hon the Minister’s reply to the Second Reading debate he reacted to a speech by an Opposition member in which reference was made to the 9% increase in railway tariffs. The hon member said that it was going to affect the farmers. The hon the Minister gave the hon member an adequate reply, and also explained that the SA Agricultural Union had accepted his standpoint. I do want to tell the hon the Minister, though, that in a large part of our country a tremendous drought is being experienced at the moment, while in the rest of our country there have been floods and the natural prospects are better than in the dry western areas. Farmers in the eastern part of our country have offered grazing land for use by the stock of farmers living in the drought-stricken areas. However, if these farmers had to transport their livestock by rail, it would be extremely expensive. The Department of Agriculture has a scheme operating at the moment, the phased aid scheme, in terms of which there is a 75% rebate on the transportation of fodder by the Railways. However, the grazing which has been offered cannot be harvested because it grows on mountains and in valleys. Therefore I should like to ask the hon the Minister whether he cannot make a concession in these times to enable those farmers who have only their basic herds left to convey those herds to those areas by rail at a discount similar to the one in terms of the phased aid scheme, so that they may survive there until the next rainy season. As I say, it would not be for a long period, but only until the next rainy season. I think that the SATS could also make a contribution in this connection so that the basic herds of the farmers concerned, who are going through a difficult time, may survive.

There is a second question which I should like to put to the hon the Minister. At the end of last year the hon the Minister announced that a railway line might be built from the Northern Cape to link up, via Pudiemoe and Schweizer-Reneke, with the main line between the Cape and the PWV area. I should like to ask the hon the Minister whether he could give us an indication of the progress that has been made with the planning of this line and when we may expect the project to commence.

Business suspended at 18h30 and resumed at 12h00.

Evening Sitting

Mr Chairman, since Monday, well-earned thanks and appreciation have repeatedly been conveyed from all sides of this House to the hon the Minister and the top management of the SATS for the fact that they have succeeded in reducing an estimated deficit of R634 million to a deficit of only R11 million. General support has also been expressed for the business-orientated approach followed by the SATS. To all these expressions of thanks and appreciation, I should like to add my own, and I should also like to voice my approval of this business-orientated approach followed by the SATS.

Having said this, I cannot omit to say that I was particularly pleased by the fact that the hon the Minister expressly referred in his Second Reading speech to the socio-economic function of the SATS. In this connection the hon the Minister said the following, among other things, and I quote him:

Arising from this, I should like to confirm that the SATS has indeed played and still plays an important role in the development of the country. There are several areas and several communities which have derived and continue to derive great benefit, from the way in which the SATS fulfills its socio-economic role. Not only does the SATS provide the infrastructure which supports the economy and the community in large parts of our country, but often, precisely because of the service it renders, it provides a stimulus for growth and development in specific regions.

Accordingly, I want to urge that the business-orientated approach should not be followed at the expense of the fulfilment of the socio-economic responsibilities of the SATS. In the business world, too, it is necessary to invest before dividends can be expected. I submit that the SATS cannot expect to be given goods to transport before an efficient service has been provided. This means, I believe, that the SATS should be guided by the potential of a particular region rather than by the passengers or cargo that already exist in that region at a given time.

However, it is a fact that the SATS is being hampered as a business organization precisely because it has to fulfil this socio-economic function. One again I want to quote the hon the Minister in this connection, where he rightly said:

This is undoubtedly true and I do not think it is reasonable to expect that the SATS itself should in the long run finance this socio-economic function which it performs. Therefore I believe that the money required for these services should be found elsewhere. This is a matter which should be financed by the Treasury because it does not primarily form part of the business activities of the SATS but is actually a service to the country. Therefore I believe that the SATS has a right to demand that it should be financed from a different source in respect of these services.

There is another matter to which I shall refer briefly, and that is the holiday train service which was introduced between Mossel Bay and Knysna during the last holiday period. I am referring to the so-called “Tootsie” train. The hon the Minister also referred to this in his Budget speech. The official inauguration of this train service on 7 December last year was a splendid occasion. We were privileged in the sense that the hon the Prime Minister himself was on that train when it made its first trip, and he also delivered the inuagural address at Knysna. The hon the Minister of Transport Affairs was also present. At one stage he drove the train himself and we arrived safely at our destination. [Interjections.] I regard the introduction of this service as an important proof of confidence in the potential of the Southern Cape. It is an important incentive to the tourist and holiday industry of that part of our country. This train has indeed proved to be a very popular holiday attraction. In this connection, the hon the Minister said in his Budget speech that the train “appears to be very popular with holiday-makers”. Here we have an example of an act of confidence in a region which is proving to have been justified.

However, I believe that this train service also holds a major advantage for the SATS itself, because people who do not normally make use of the services of the SATS are introduced in this way to travelling by train. I believe that this could lead to a resurgence in the popularity of travelling by train in future. I believe, therefore, that this “Tootsie” train is an important show window or advertisement for the SATS and I thank the hon the Minister for the introduction of this service.

Finally, I just want to say a few words in connection with the pensions paid to retired SATS staff. The hon the Minister rightly said in his Budget speech that apart from the annual statutory adjustment of 2% in pensions, annuities had been increased by 10% as from January 1984. The hon member for Kimberley North also gave a detailed exposition of the pension benefits of SATS officials in a good speech yesterday. However, there is some dissatisfaction in this connection and this arises from the fact that the position of SATS staff who retired a number of years ago compares very unfavourably with the pensions paid today. There is a disparity in the pensions. I know what the reason is and I can explain it very clearly, but the fact remains that former Railway officials feel unhappy about this disparity. I appeal to the hon the Minister and I ask him whether we should not find a non-recurring amount and then use that amount to achieve parity in this pension structure. I believe that this would be a source of great satisfaction to former Transport Service officials and that it would also remove an important source of anxiety and dissatisfaction. I believe that with a non-recurring amount we shall succeed in achieving such parity, be it by subsidizing the pension fund or in any other way. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I should like to support the last part of the speech made by the hon member for Mossel Bay, ie his plea concerning the Railway pensioners. I think he made out a very good case and we gladly support that idea.

The hon member for Gezina referred in very glowing language this afternoon to the ATKV and the Vrou-en-moederbeweging, two Afrikaner cultural organizations of the SATS which have left a lasting impression on the cultural life of the Afrikaner and which we may all be very proud of. [Interjections.]

Order!

Last year, the leader of those hon members who are being so noisy, the hon the Prime Minister, made a speech at Hartenbos, the coastal resort of the ATKV. I read from Die Burger of 19 December 1983, under the heading ‘“Open deure’, sê Premier”:

The hon member for Gezina referred to the amendment of the CP as a gimmick, because we had asked, among other things, for the holiday resorts of the SATS to be protected. Here at Hartenbos, the hon the Prime Minister of South Africa asked that the cultural door should be opened. [Interjections.] I want to put a question to the hon member for Gezina. If a Coloured person can become the Minister of Transport Affairs, surely a Coloured person can also become a system manager or an engineer or occupy any other position in the SATS. That Coloured person speaks Afrikaans, as the hon members opposite like to say. He is also a member of the Dutch Reformed Church. [Interjections.]

Order!

As the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning says, the Whites, the Coloureds and the Indians are in a melting-pot from which they will emerge as one nation. I now ask the hon member for Gezina whether, if a Coloured who spoke Afrikaans, belonged to the Dutch Reformed Church and was a system manager of the SA Railways were to apply for membership of the ATKV, he would approve this.

Do I serve on the committee of the ATKV?

But what would the hon member’s recommendation be? [Interjections.]

Order! Hon members must give the hon member for Kuruman an opportunity to make his speech.

I asked the hon member for Hercules who said that he could not become a member … [Interjections.]

Order!

If the Coloured person were to apply for membership of the ATKV, would the hon member for Hercules say that he could be accepted?

That is something for the committee of the ATKV to decide.

The hon member sang a different tune a short while ago, but that is typical of the hon member of the NP—they hide behind every organization in South Africa because they do not have a standpoint of their own. [Interjections.]

Order!

Am I right in saying that the hon the Deputy Minister of Internal Affairs says that if the committee of the ATKV said that a Coloured person could become a member, he would not object?

If they want him, we do not object.

Thank you very much, that is all we want to know. They will hide behind committees of cultural organizations—their party has no firm standpoint.

I do not really want to put any further questions to the hon the Minister. I am afraid of putting any further questions to him, because I put several questions to him yesterday, and he promised me—I have my Hansard before me—that he would reply to them, but he did not say a word today. [Interjections.] The hon the Minister did not reply to a single question of mine. When I requested yesterday that segregation should be applied and that he should work for that, the hon the Minister said: “Hon members may ask whatever questions they like, but this party does not stand for mixed residential areas.” However, he is not the hon the Minister of Community Development, but the hon the Minister of Transport Affairs. [Interjections.] Now I ask again: Is the hon the Minister going to apply segregation measures in the services and operation of the SATS?

I have one more question to put to the hon the Minister. He said yesterday: “There are two forms of integration.” He must explain to us what the two forms of integration are and which one he is going to apply in the SATS. [Interjections.]

I want to thank the hon the Minister and the General Manager of the SATS for the tour on which parliamentary transport study groups were taken last year. We travelled from Johannesburg to Sishen and Saldanha. It was probably the first passenger train from Johannesburg via Sishen to Saldanha. It was the first passenger train on this route. We are grateful for the fact that this was done, but it was a long route that was followed. We should like this train to travel along the new railway line which was to have run from Saldanha via Sishen, Kuruman and Poedimoe to the Rand, which is a much shorter route. I want to record my disappointment about this today. The hon the Minister corresponded with the Kuruman MPC about this. I suppose the leader of the National Party instructed him to correspond with my MPC because the MP belonged to the Conservative Party. [Interjections.] In any event, I want to express my deep disappointment today at the fact that the building of this railway line has been shelved. The hon the Minister says that he does not have the money, but in this budget, thousands of rands are being budgeted for the building of a hostel for Blacks at Sishen. If this railway line had been built, I would have like this hon Minister to have built that hostel in Bophuthatswana. It is only 60 kilometres from Sishen and the Tswanas could then have lived in the hostel in their own fatherland.

Then they would have had to travel 60 kilometres every day. [Interjections.]

I am not talking to that hon member now, I am talking to the hon the Minister.

While the hon the Minister does not have money for building that railway line, he builds a hostel 60 kilometres from the homeland’s border, while it is his party’s policy—so they say—to encourage development within the homeland. But under that party’s leadership, accommodation worth to R12 million has been built near Sishen, within commuting distance of the homelands. Sir, that party is running away from the policy of separate development. [Interjections.]

I want to address a serious plea to the hon the Minister. I know he is going through difficult times, but I do want to ask him and the General Manager to ensure that this railway line, which could become the artery of a new development line between Saldanha and the Rand via the North-Western and Northern Cape, is completed as soon as possible.

To export rocks.

Yes, at the moment this line is carrying South Africa’s iron ore to the harbours for export. However, we do not want the holes of the iron ore mines to be the only things left at Sishen; we want this line to be built so that this part of the world can be opened up and development can take place there. It borders on Bophuthatswana, and this area, which, with its mineral wealth, could make a contribution to the economic welfare of this country, must be developed. [Interjections.]

Order! Who is making this speech, the hon member for Kuruman or the hon member for Bryanston?

I am only helping, Sir. [Interjection.]

Order! The hon member for Bryanston must contain himself.

I certainly do not need the help of the hon member for Bryanston. He can offer his help to his friends on that side.

I want to ask the hon the Minister yet another question. At Kuruman, approximately 10 000 Blacks get off every day at a bus terminus which is fairly inadequate. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Kuruman has said many things to which one could reply at great length. He tried to take the hon member for Gezina to task, as well as the hon the Minister. Yesterday he tried to take me to task, too, about what I had allegedly said. We shall come to that. Tonight he reminded me of the turkey which I saw standing in front of the magistrate’s court in Johannesburg with one of its legs tied down. He stood there clucking the whole day. When I asked why the turkey was standing there, they told me that it had slept in the police cells the night before. So the turkey came to court every day, where one of its legs was tied down. It could not do anything and just had to stand there clucking. When I asked where the turkey came from, they told me that it had been involved in a big Railway theft case and had been thrown from a train repeatedly, but had survived on each occasion. When the train came to a railway crossing, the robbers threw off the crates containing the turkey. However, it survived, just as those hon members still survive tonight. [Interjections.] This is a very complicated matter. I use the word “complicated” on purpose, because I find the CP’s policy so complicated that I do not think it will ever be possible to understand it. We shall examine every aspect of the complexity of their policy in Rosettenville. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Kuruman put certain questions to the hon the Minister tonight and ended up by praising the hon the Minister because he had given the hon member everything he wanted. There is a fine railway line to Sishen and the whole of the North-West has been developed as a result. He would do better to thank the hon the Minister for this with all his heart.

I should like to talk about the Railway Police, who will celebrate their fiftieth anniversary on 1 July 1984. In 1910, when the Railways came into being, the Railway Police did not exist. That is why the fiftieth anniversary of the Railway Police this year is a joyful occasion. I want to ask hon members to watch TV1 on 18 April, when a documentary film will be shown on the Railway Police. A television series of 10 episodes on the Railway Police is also in the pipeline.

In 1913, three years after Union, the first Railway policeman, with the rank of chief inspector, started work in Johannesburg. In 1916, they were given the power to arrest people. Initially, the Railway Police fell under all nine divisions of the SA Railways. However, there was a lack of uniformity and co-ordination. In May 1933, the Railway Police was reorganized and Colonel A A Cilliers became the head of the Railway Police. The present composition of the South African Railway Police dates from 1 July 1934. In 1936, the SA Railways began to train its own White policemen. Formerly this had been done by the SA Police. The training of non-Whites, and I hope the CP in particular will take cognizance of this, began in 1947. At present there are 2 934 Whites and 3 456 persons of colour in the service of the Railway Police.

I have looked up some interesting statistics. In the short period between November 1983 and January 1984, 170 people were fatally injured on SATS property, which had been placed under the jurisdiction of the Railway Police. There were 434 cases of robbery, 677 cases of theft, 88 cases of pickpocketing and 45 cases of rape.

Furthermore, 297 people were arrested on charges of theft. It is also interesting to see that goods valued at R95 000 were stolen within three months, but do hon members know how much of that amount was recover ed by the Railway Police? Goods to the value of R65 000 were recovered. Goods to the value of only R30 000 were lost. The Railway Police also investigated 28 999 crimes and were responsible for 19 446 prosecutions; 96% of those prosecutions succeeded. Within those three months alone, they investigated 3 039 contraventions of the Road Transportation Act, and fines amounting to R260 354 were paid by people who had been conveying goods illegally. This is yet another example of the brilliant work done by the Railway Police.

However, the Railway Police does not only maintain internal security; it does not only maintain law and order and prosecute criminals. It also investigates crime in other areas. Do hon members realize how many undesirable persons are stopped by the Railway Police at our points of entry; do they realize how many undesirable articles and how much banned literature and equipment they have confiscated? Are hon members aware of the onslaught on us that is being warded off by the Railway Police? Do they know how these men protect the luggage of the passengers on trains and aircraft?

Our airports are especially vulnerable, and here in particular the Railway Police provide an outstanding service. In this way, they provide protection at all key points. Have hon members thought, for example, of the oil pipeline and the safe conveyance of oil products, of pumping stations and equipment protected by the Railway Police? With regard to the national strategy, too, they investigate onslaughts and report on them to the top structure of the Government’s security network. So these people undoubtedly do excellent work. In the operational area, too, convoys are escorted by the Railway Police. An inspectorate at headquarters monitors the activities of the various sections in order to ensure uniformity.

It is essential today that stations be patrolled, and at airports it is essential that hand luggage be searched. Unclaimed luggage has to be investigated by the Railway Police, and airports are even patrolled by armoured vehicles. I am thinking, too, of the goods yards and the unguarded freight at stations which have to be regularly patrolled. Then there are teams of detectives who have to prevent theft from goods trucks; special teams of detectives responsible for the combating of theft from delivery vehicles in urban areas, and patrol boats that have to combat crime with harbour areas and at sea. The hon the Minister and the hon member for Sea Point recently travelled in one of these patrol boats in Saldanha Bay, so they can tell hon members what these boats really mean to us.

The Railway Police also has a special task force to take action in the case of aircraft hijackings. A special task force has been trained to handle riots and terrorism and any emergency which may arise.

The Railway Police has a dog section, and these dogs can even smell out explosives. This is an enormous task, and we welcome it. They also undertake the training of dog handlers for private persons and bodies and have even trained dogs for Escom to smell out explosives.

Finally, I want to ask whether it is not time we provided for the spiritual preparedness of this great Railway Police Force, which is performing such an excellent task. I am aware of the fact that previous Commissioners and the churches have asked whether it is not possible to appoint a chaplain for the Railway Police. The police are trained at Esselen Park, and there are the local minister, the Rev J J Human, has to see to all their needs. If a chaplain could be appointed for them, something special could be accomplished, because the chaplain has to appear at police parades, he has to conduct personal interviews and he has to ascertain what the men’s problems are. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, it is always very interesting to follow the hon member for Rosettenville who tells us so many anecdotes about his long experience with the SATS, and it is amazing that at least twice a year he tells a different story. One awaits with interest what he is going to tell us next year. I would like to recommend to the hon the Minister that if the hon member for Rosettenville ever retires, he should be appointed as a recruiting officer for the SATS because of the enthusiasm he shows for the SATS.

I would like to thank the hon the Minister for telling the House today what the difference is between a subsidy and compensation. I am pleased that he was able to say that there is a basic difference. The SATS must not under any circumstances be subsidized; it must be compensated for any losses it may incur. Commissions of inquiry over the years have always stressed the point that the Treasury is responsible for any losses that may be sustained by the SATS, whether they are in respect of branch lines, socio-economic services or anything else which does not pay for itself.

The next thing I want to thank the hon the Minister for is his explanation about the minibus. I am pleased to see that he is going to allow the legislation dealing with that subject to be submitted to a select committee before Second Reading. It is very necessary that this should be done. I am very pleased to hear that he has come to the conclusion that the maximum number of passengers in a taxi should be nine, because we would have major problems if the number was lowered.

I would like to deal with the SA Airways and unfortunately I cannot say that the letter I want to read in this regard has very flattering things to say about this branch of the SATS. As I am also connected with tourism, I think it is very important that the type of person who comes to South Africa and is of consequence should be well treated on the SA Airways. However, I have received a letter from an American group who came to South Africa on a people-to-people tour. As the hon the Minister knows, the people-to-people tours are made up of very influential people. Coming as it does from America, I am addressed in this letter as “Dear Congressman”. The letter reads as follows:

I will give the hon the Minister a copy of this letter. I want to appeal to the hon the Minister to ensure that all visitors, no matter whether they are very poor or very rich and important, are well treated so that we do not receive letters of this nature reflecting on the people of South Africa.

Having said that, I should like to deal now with the very important question of housing in relation to the SATS. I find that over the years the SATS has been extraordinary generous. Perhaps that may be the reason why they tended to be a little short. If one looks at page 8 of the annual report for 1982-83, one is amazed to see that the House Ownership Fund now stands at R1,25 billion. That means that houses to the value of R1,25 billion have been bought and that certainly shows a generosity on the part of the SATS. This is made up of R713 million coming from the Superannuation Fund and a contribution of R503 million from the SATS through Head No 10 in the capital budget. What surprised me was that, in looking through the capital budget for Head No 10 this year, I could not find it. I went back to last year and could not find it for that year either. So I had to ask what happened to it and found that in 1979-80 R88 million was given, in 1980-81 R85 million, in 1981-82 R140 million and in 1982-83 R10 million. A sum of R324 million has been given. This has, however, had a tremendous effect on inflation in the price of homes. On page 63 of the annual report for 1982-83 one sees that in that year the House Ownership Scheme provided some R64 million for 1 155 homes. That gives an average price of R55 590 per house. That seems to me to be an extraordinary high price. That is, however, the figure obtained through applying simple arithmetic by dividing R64 million by 1 155. If, on the other hand, one takes the R733 million that has been allocated since 1937 when the scheme started, the price works out at R19 500 per house. I should like the hon the Minister to investigate this whole question, because it seems to me that, generally, the schemes have tended to raise the price of houses in the market. The low rate of interest employees have to pay allows them to buy houses of higher and higher value and become more competitive in the market.

As a result of this we found articles appearing in newspapers in 1982 when the SATS decided to cut back on housing loans by about R80 million. One article I have here is headed: “SATS upsets housing sales”. The impression given is that the whole housing market is going to collapse merely because the scheme of the SATS and other schemes were not going to provide money. What makes me laugh, is the following article which appeared in The Natal Witness. I quote:

I am not really interested in the buyers and the sellers. I am interested in the welfare of the personnel. I should like to ask the hon the Minister please to investigate whether prices in this particular market are not being inflated in this way.

I should also like to direct an appeal to the hon the Minister in respect of Black housing. Now that people can get leasehold in Black townships, can the hon the Minister not perhaps ensure that the SATS buys up a large number of such properties for its Black employees? At this stage they are comparatively cheap and, if they are not bought now, it is going to be difficult to get them in the future. I would honestly advise the hon the Minister to do that now while the going is good and while the prices of the Department of Co-operation and Development and also of the Department of Community Development are cheap. In a few years time it could be very expensive. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, if the hon the member for Bezuidenhout was praising the SATS, I want to thank him for doing so. The next time the hon member speaks he should please direct his words a little more towards this side of the House. Fortunately I could not hear a word he said. [Interjections.] I assume of course that the hon the Minister did hear him. He can therefore reply to the hon member’s questions himself. Interjections.]

Yesterday evening I went on a special trip to my constituency to hear whether there were any complaints there about the Railways, or about the SA Transport Services, as it is now called. Whatever its name may be, it remains a wonderful organization. [Interjections.] One could scarcely imagine what our country would have looked like without the SATS. I am thinking in particular of the quality of the officials. I think they probably sent the best officials to our part of the world. They are always helpful; never sulky. There were a few complaints among the elderly about these pensions. However, so much has already been said about the pensions throughout this debate that I do not want to rake this up as well. I feel that by this time it has probably been drummed into the hon the Minister’s head. [Interjections.]

I myself was born in a house near the railway line. [Interjections.] Actually that train runs right through our house. [Interjections.] When trains go past, everything rattles and shakes. One also knows when it is going to rain; the passing train makes a different noise. [Interjections.] Of course it does not keep me awake. I function like a Railwayman; I sleep like a top. [Interjections.] Of course there is one thing I really find enjoyable about a train. I have just said that the train runs right past our house, or right through our house for that matter. In the evenings I sit on the verandah when the train passes. The farm people refer to it as the “Nine down”. By the time it passes there, it is dinner time on the train. It is a wonderful sight, when the dining car passes, to watch the people eating; and of course there are the bottles standing on the stables. [Interjections.] It looks too wonderful. Now the hon the Minister should realize that the wine on trains is rather expensive. He should please go into this matter. [Interjections.] It is when the train passes and I see those things that I pour a drink for my guests. I myself do not drink. [Interjections.] But at least I pour my guests a drink, Mr Chairman. [Interjections.]

Then one wonders why the train is so empty. After all, a train is enjoyable to travel in, and in addition it is safe. I cannot think of a better way of travelling, particularly on one’s honeymoon. Then a train is just what the doctor ordered. [Interjections.] The clicking of the wheels is just the thing to calm one’s nerves. [Interjections.] However, the trains are so empty nowadays, but I do not believe the fault lies with the SATS. The fault lies with us, with our own people. We show off too much. My father always said that the less a man owns the more he shows off. This is precisely what is happening now.

Near my farm there is a station called Nuy. Mr Chairman, do I have to resume my seat already? [Interjections.]

No, the hon member may carry on speaking for a little longer.

As I have mentioned, near my farm there is a station called Nuy. If hon members do not know where it is, they need only ask where the best wine is. That is where the station is too. [Interjections.]

A decade or two ago it was a busy station. Now it is rather quiet but that is not because our region has deteriorated; on the contrary, we are a farming community and we are farming so successfully there that some of the farms have already been paid off. [Interjections.] Nowadays everything is conveyed by road because it is easier and quicker, but we have to pay dearly for it.

I now want to refer to Worcester. This is the main town in the Boland and if something is done there it is done well. The SATS saw fit to build a beautiful goods shed complex there at a cost of R14 million. One can do that at Worcester, but not at Wellington. [Interjections.] It was opened by the hon the Minister in 1982. It was a bitterly cold day and the hon the Minister almost froze. That day I saw how a thin little man who does not have any money can freeze without a coat! [Interjections.] However, the hon the Minister need not get cold shivers about that project at Worcester. Worcester will play its part. All the facilities are there and it will be a blessing if we can make more use of that goods shed in order to bring relief on our roads. We have to give the SATS more support. The State has provided this wonderful transport network and now we are only giving the SATS the crumbs. This is not how things work. The roads are going to wrack and ruin and the trains are carrying virtually no freight, and then we still complain.

Sir, I want to finish now, because this hon Minister of ours has received sufficient. I do not want it to go to his head. [Interjections.] Before I resume my seat there are two further matters I want to raise. I want to tell the hon the Minister that the station at Worcester has to be cleaned up. This is not a major task. The hon the Minister could even pay me the money to do it. [Interjections.] I also want to ask the hon the Minister to do something about the tunnel otherwise we shall have to prohibit heavy traffic from using that road because the road is going to be in a terrible state if we do not complete that tunnel soon.

We also asked for some of the old steam locomotives for Worcester and the SATS gave us one. We wanted one of those old steam locomotives which made such a noise and woke up the women and children, the SATS refused, but we would be satisfied with any old locomotive. There are quite a number of them standing at Touws River. Just send us one. I also want to mention that the hon the Minister is not the worst Minister we have ever had. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Worcester will forgive me if I do not follow him on his honeymoon trip through Worcester. However, I do want to say that it is a good thing for an hon member for make a plea for his constituency.

The hon member for South Coast is not here this evening. Yesterday he asked me a question and said that I would not reply to it. I want to give the hon member the assurance that there is no question we shall not reply to. Yesterday the hon member said that we wanted to retain the privileged position of the Whites permanently. Since when has it been the case that one is not entitled to plead for one’s people and one’s country? Why does the hon member want to surrender? Why does he want to run away from what is his own? The hon member will concede that the fact that he loves his wife does not mean that he hates the wives of other people. We believe, and it is our policy, that our White people (volk) has to survive and that we have to fight for it. We have to fight for their survival and we do not begrudge other peoples precisely what we demand for ourselves. [Interjections.]

I want to get back to the hon member for Gezina and hopefully for the last time. At the time the hon member voted with us against the motion, and all I can say is that what I said and did goes double for him. However, he had his reasons and we know what they were. It was no secret. He talked the matter over and we heard it in the Diningroom, in the Lobby and everywhere. We know why he ran back. If he went back, he had good reasons for doing so. If he did not have the nerve and the courage to continue, we can understand it. Why does he want to try to make an impression on his colleagues, particularly the liberals in the party, by spitting venom at us? It is not necessary. This does not increase one’s self-respect and one’s esteem. The hon member must resolve the matter in his own conscience. He should not be bad-tempered in the Lobby. He should greet people and talk to them and be friendly and pleasant.

I want to get back to the Budget of the hon the Minister. I want to say something about the socio-economic services rendered by the SATS, to which the hon the Minister referred in his speech. It is true that socioeconomic passenger services have been provided by the SATS over the years. We do not want them simply to cease or be abolished; this simply cannot happen. The Railways is part of our infrastructure and the Administration also has to make its contribution to the development of our people and father-land and all the groups living in this country. However, there are limits; one cannot go too far.

I should like the hon the Minister to tell us how far he is going and at what point he is going to stop. In the drought-ravaged areas we have uneconomic branch lines. The hon the Minister has said that some of them are to be closed down. I want to ask the hon the Minister, since some of them are being closed down, to ensure that the transportation is not stopped. The hon the Minister has to reassure the country, and he has to tell us where and how he is going to do this. The people have to know what is going to happen.

I want to say a few words about financing. I took a look at financing. It is true that the SATS bears a great financial burden. The amount being voted, is R7 227,5 million. Depreciation has to be deducted from this and finance charges amounting to R1 120 740 000 also have to be omitted. If one expresses this as a percentage of the actual cash flow which has been budgeted for, it amounts to 21,7%. This is the burden of debt compared with the appropriation. This is a high percentage. I am warning the hon the Minister that no matter what is done, it has to be borne in mind and it has to be ensured that the burden of debt on the SATS does not become too great. I have already discussed this in the past, and it was looked into. I feel that it is a good thing for us to refer to this matter frequently, because we then get good financing. This matter has to be given careful consideration. If one expressed the financing costs as a percentage of the total amount which includes depreciation, inter alia, it amounts to only 15,5%, and does not look too high, but if one omits depreciation and one considers the percentage then, it is considerably higher. We are asking the hon the Minister to look into this.

I should like to refer to the D F Malan airport. It is true that major construction work is in progress there which is costing a great deal of money, but in my opinion the air-conditioning leaves much to be desired. I do not know whether the air-conditioning will only be installed later, but the people working there have to use fans to avoid being stifled by the heat. Could the hon the Minister tell us whether provision has been made for this in the Budget? Is it still in the planning stage? Will air-conditioning be installed there and, if so, when?

I now want to refer to Metroblitz which the hon the Minister introduced on 11 January to run between Pretoria and Johannesburg. The hon the Minister acted in a commendable way in that he invited all the parties, businessmen and other organizations, to be present. He allowed everyone in the public sector to accompany him on that trip. That is far better than what the hon the Minister of Defence did, because he only took his own people with him in secret. We want to pay tribute to the hon the Minister of Transport Affairs for doing what he did in connection with this trip. As regards the other tours he arranged, as far as I know the hon the Minister did everything he could to help other people.

In conclusion, I want to refer to the conveyance of goods. The hon the Minister said that the SATS had 33% of the goods market. The hon the Prime Minister said that the National Party was indissolubly linked to the idea of a free market. There is therefore competition, and supply and demand determines prices. Can the hon the Minister tell us to what extent he is going to compete with the private sector to win back a part of the transport market? How is he going to act and what percentage does he want to win back? In the past the accusation was always made that the SATS had a monopoly, that they wanted to grab too much for themselves and did not want to relinquish certain things. What is the hon the Minister going to do and to what lengths will he go to win back this market for the SATS? I am now referring to the conveyance of goods by rail and by road. I would be glad if the hon the Minister could tell us more about this.

I now want to refer to self-financing. The aim is, as is the case with the Post Office, to finance 50% of all capital works from own funds and the rest from loans. According to the figures the General Manager gave me, the loans raised to execute capital works constituted 44% of the total. I hope the figure is correct and that I am not referring to the wrong year now. However, if it is correct, I am grateful that this is the case because we could have been far worse off. What are the objectives of the hon the Minister? Does he want to increase the percentage to 50%, or does he want to keep it at its present level?

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central made quite a few suggestions to the hon the Minister as to how the SATS should be run and administered. As could be expected of him, it was nothing more or less than his usual soap-box oratory.

When we were both in the provincial council, he admitted that he had considered leaving South Africa. However, to put him in greater perspective so that the hon the Minister can get to know him—and I do not say he should—I quote from his speech this afternoon when he replied, after being asked by the hon member for Durban North if he did not care about oil pollution: “No, of course not; don’t be stupid”. I say this just to make it clear to the hon the Minister with what kind of South African citizen he is dealing when he deals with that hon member.

However, I want to get back to his suggestions. I thought that his only feasible suggestion was that the Airways should be separated from the Railways. I thought that this suggestion could at least be investigated. However, he went further and suggested that the public could even buy shares in the SAA. One can just imagine if that hon member had to be a shareholder in the SAA. There would be chaos, confusion and disorder with no planning whatsoever for the needs, safety or the consideration of the travelling public. All the hon member would be interested in would be to make a fast buck today. To heck with tomorrow. Profit would be first in line while service to the public would be standing in a queue around the corner, completely out of sight. No, Sir, I am sure it will be safer to leave things as they are.

*The other day the hon member for Rissik got stuck on the subject of “absurd” and “absurdities”. He spoke confusedly about living together and travelling together. It sounded like a chicken-run. I just want to say to the hon member that he must be careful not to open his mouth too wide because the last time he spoke about Kennis van die Aand the plague was not yet behind the wall. However, I understand that the plague is very close to the wall now and that the wall of the plague is not just behind the “kennis van die aand”. Therefore the hon member should rather zip his mouth.

The hon the Minister is by this time dripping with all the tributes and praise. It is not that he does not deserve it; he does deserve it, but I think that enough is enough, as the hon member behind me said. I want to convey my praise and admiration in a different way. I want to express my admiration for the SATS as a whole. This is an organization which has beaten convincingly all other organizations, companies and private enterprises, sometimes in very difficult circumstances, as is the case at present, as regards service, competitive tariffs, manpower training employment record, credibility and humanity, and with the academic training, good remuneration and pension benefits for its employees. The more I see the experience, the greater becomes my admiration for this gentle, purposeful, firm and efficient giant, the SATS. I hope the hon the Minister is listening now, because I am praising him. [Interjections.] Had I been a young man today, I should certainly have made the SATS my career, and that is saying a lot.

Until about three to four years ago East London and the Border areas had a hard time of it. The people did not want to listen; they no longer wanted to believe anything; they no longer wanted to invest or stay there. All that would help, they said, would be if the entire Government were to pack its bags and move, officials and all—Iscor included—to East London. Only then would they accept the Government’s bona fides. Today, however, it is a different story. Queenstown, King William’s Town and East London are bursting out of their seams with contentment. In the Berlin area things are not yet going so well. In the Ciskei they are going still less well. There is still a great deal to be done. There are still many hungry people to feed, house and provide with employment. However, I have full confidence that the Government’s policy will bring relief there as well.

†Today everyone in the Border can see, feel and experience the throbbing pulse of growth and economic upsurge, which would not have taken place without the forward planning and direct service of the SATS as regards rail, road and sea transport. Not only has the SATS kept pace, but with forward planning it has been able to actively assist growth by lessening the disadvantages of the Border area as opposed to the advantages of the Witwatersrand area. It has and is continuing to cut the tranport time of passengers and goods between East London and Johannesburg, thereby making the East London harbour more competetive with that of Durban and the industrialist of East London more competetive with his counterpart on the Rand. The SATS is continuously planning and scheming to render better, faster and more streamlined services to the Border and the Ciskei. It is well geared to give impetus and support to the new developments that will shortly take place in various forms and in various places in the Ciskei area. It is equipped and ready to give service wherever reasonably required, except, I would say, to the ill-conceived industrial development plan of 236 hectares on the west bank of East London. The city council of East London must realize that there is more than enough land available on the East London side of the river that can and must be developed instead of the west bank.

*However, there is just one hitch. The airport at East London is rapidly becoming too small and obsolete, and it will be necessary to plan, effect alterations and expand it soon in order to eliminate the congestion that sometimes occurs there between departing and arriving passengers, so that this airport, too, can adapt to all the progressive steps and the planning of the SATS. In passing, Sir, I am still awaiting a reply to a question I asked last year about the use of the waiting-room, as the Springbok Room is used elsewhere. Are the hon the Minister and his top officials the only important people, and may the sun not shine on the poor MPs as well?

Mr Chairman, I do not intend reacting to what the hon member for East London North had to say in relation to his own constituency. I intend raising a couple of points with the hon the Minister about my own, but before I do so there are a number of matters which I want to raise that have already been discussed in this debate. The first point has to do with the SATS’ medical scheme. I do not see the hon member for Parktown here, but I heard what he had to say this afternoon, and I should like to support him in his complaints to the hon the Minister about Transmed.

Let me say at the outset that I believe that Transmed is an essential scheme. I think all employees should be protected by a medical aid scheme, and I also appreciate what the hon the Minister had to say about the dispensary and the savings that are being made in dispensing their own medicines. However, if we are going to have such a scheme then at least let us have the scheme operating efficiently. I received a letter recently, and after hearing what the hon member for Park-town had to say, I felt that maybe the hon the Minister would like to hear of yet another practical case that has been brought to my attention.

This concerns a pensioner who used to live in Natal and moved to Pretoria last year. He registered as a resident in Pretoria, and in July last year his wife had a consultation with her private doctor. On 16 August the pensioner himself went to see his doctor who then in the latter half of August rendered an account for those two consultations. On 2 September the wife had a second consultation with the doctor, and on 16 September an account was rendered showing that the previous account had not been paid. This pensioner, who was brought up to believe that one should pay one’s accounts, went to see the counter clerk of Transmed and was informed that the cheque was in the machine. A month later, on 18 October, another statement arrived showing that the account had not yet been paid. Again the pensioner went to see Transmed and he was told that the cheque was still in the machine. He was even quoted a transaction number. A month later, on 16 November, yet another statement arrived showing that the third consultation had been paid for but not the two previous ones. On inquiry the pensioner was told that the girl who was in charge of payments did not realize that the first two accounts had not been paid and was wary of making a duplicate payment. The man in charge assured the pensioner that a cheque would be hand-written and sent out immediately. A month later, on 18 December, yet another statement was received showing that still no payment had been made. When Transmed was approached the pensioner was told that the senior clerk in the checking department had refused to sanction a handwritten cheque. Then various excuses were given, for example, that there was a shortage of staff; that a poor quality of person was employed. He was even told that “We take girls off the street and try to train them”. The pensioner was eventually asked: “Is the doctor worried about his account?” to which the pensioner replied no, and then he was told: “Well, then, why should you worry?” What did that pensioner do then? He paid the account himself because he believed that accounts should be paid. After all, it was then five months later and the pensioner has since put in a claim against Transmed. I just want to read the final paragraph of this pensioner’s letter:

I take this opportunity to put it to the hon the Minister and I am sure that he and his staff will take note.

The second point I want to raise concerns pensioners. I was very pleased to hear the hon member for Mossel Bay making an appeal to the hon the Minister to have a look at the old pensioners. I believe that these people’s plight should be looked at. I had a letter from a pensioner who retired in 1972…

I have had hundreds.

Well, this letter is one of a number. This man spent his whole working life on the Railways and he retired with a pension of R150,00 per month plus an allowance of R44,00, giving a total of R194,00. Twelve years later he is receiving a pension of R487,00 per month plus the allowance of R44,00. This man is complaining that he is falling further and further behind. I therefore thank the hon member for Mossel Bay for making an appeal from the Government side to the hon the Minister to have a good look at the situation. I do believe that people are finding things extremely difficult.

I want to raise two parochial things with the hon the Minister. I was pleased to see in the Brown Book that money is being set aside to improve the South Coast railway line from Isipingo southward. I am very pleased to hear it, because we have had numerous complaints from commuters. One of the reasons they give why they switch from rail to road, is that often the commuter trains are held up near Umbogintwini, waiting for goods trains and other trains to pass because of the single track. I have reported this matter to the system manager in the partand I sincerely hope that the planned improvements will result in the speeding up of the commuter train service so that these delays will be eliminated. If we want the public to make use of trains, we have to have an efficient service.

What about Port Shepstone to Margate?

You must speak to my colleague, because that is his constituency. Tonight I am being parochial, looking after my own constituency.

Finally, I also want to support the many complaints we have had about attacks on passengers travelling on the trains. Just a week ago I had a telephone call from a woman in my constituency who said that her maid was robbed at knife point on the train between Isipingo and Amanzimtoti. Someone here said that we cannot allow the situation to continue and I agree with those statements. I was pleased to hear the hon the Minister replying by saying the steps are afoot to apply certain security steps on trains to try to protect passengers. It is common knowledge that non-White workers, especially on payday, are being harassed on trains. Some of them ask their employers to pay their money into building society or post office accounts or to hold it back until after payday, because payday is the time when thugs go out on the trains to rob these people. The tragedy is that often the trains are full and that these robbers, armed with knives and other weapons, go through the trains robbing people of their possessions. It seems to me that law and order has broken down on certain trains at certain times. I think it is something we need give a lot more publicity to in the hope that some action will be taken. I know it is a very difficult problem and I would almost suggest that people should take the law into their own hands and give these thugs a darn good hiding and that maybe it would stop then, but we believe in law and order and I am quite sure that they do also. I believe they have a right to be protected. I understand the hon the Minister’s problem with staff and I listened very carefully to what he had to say about the number of extra policemen that would be required in order to better police railway stations. I want to thank him for what the Railway Police have done at Doonside Station in my constituency to clear up all the vagrants who used to hang around the station and assault women on the footbridge over the railway line, but I do think this is a growing problem. We have heard of this happening in the Peninsula, on the Witwatersrand and I want to tell the hon the Minister that it is happening om the Upper South Coast. I think we must give it a lot of publicity, that we must tighten up security and that we must make everybody, including the passengers, aware that they must in some way or another try to prevent this sort of thing from happening. As I have said, it is a very difficult problem and we sympathise with the hon the Minister. However, it is not something that can be allowed to drift, but is something that has to be tackled right now, otherwise it can end up with something very serious happening.

Mr Chairman, the hon menber for Amanzimtoti said nothing to which I need react.

The hon member for Cape Town Gardens—strangely enough, I see he is here this evening—had a question on the Question Paper today, question 22, on the planning of a railway line to Khayelitsha. He can leave the False Bay constituency and the problems of that constituency to me. They are in competent hands. The hon member has a way of scratching around in my constituency. He has a way of meddling in affairs there. Quite frequently, too, he sticks his nose into the Crossroads squatter camp. Now he is doing it again in respect of Khayelitsha and the planning for the railway line there. He should leave my constituency to me. I am looking after it well. I am quite satisfied with the way in which I am looking after it, and in future I am not going to accept responsibility for his safety in my constituency.

Earlier today the hon the Minister furnished an interesting figure in regard to the cost of a train journey between Cape Town and Mitchell’s Plain, namely 0,8 cents per kilometre. The distance is 32 kilometres and it therefore costs in the region of R3 per week per person. If one bears this in mind, and one also bears in mind that the new development of Khayelitsha is situated only a few kilometres away from Mitchell’s Plain, I want to ask the hon the Minister to consider a railway connection joining either the Nyanga line or the Bellville line. I think it is essential, and if people can be conveyed for R3 per week I honestly think that any person who has to go and live in Khayelitsha will have no reason for complaint and will also have no reason to say that he has been removed to a place far from his work and will have to arrange for his own transportation at a price which he cannot afford.

I want to refer to one other matter relating to my constituency. Last year we were privileged to be invited by the hon the Minister to the opening of a hostel for single Coloured employees of the SATS near Mitchell’s Plain. I want to state here this evening that I think that complex is very nice. It is a good example for many employers in the private sector. It was constructed at a low cost relative to the number of persons who are being accommodated there. The standard of the accommodation as such is very high. What is a great compliment to the Coloured people there is the fact that the entire complex is in their own hands and is being managed by them. There is also a wonderful sports complex at that hostel. It forms part of the entire complex.

Now, we have the problem that in Mitchell’s Plain itself and in the surrounding Coloured areas, there are schools which have a need for such facilities. The request has been made that the facilities of the sports complex should also, at times, be made available to those schools when they are not being used by the inhabitants themselves. I want to address a friendly request to the hon the Minister to give attention to this little matter.

There is one final point I want to raise. We know that the SATS is managed according to business principles. This is a good thing. However, it remains a problem to ensure, as far as the expenditure and the obligations of the SATS are concerned, that there will also be sufficient revenue.

I want to suggest that the hon the Minister should consider making advertising space available for hiring out to the private sector inside our passenger coaches, on the outside of our railway wagons, as well as on all the thousands of electric standards along our railway lines. Of course it is not easy to determine what the revenue from such a source would be. However, I think it could be considerable, hundreds of thousands of rands, and perhaps even a great deal more. Therefore I want to recommend that the hon the Minister give consideration to this possibility, in order to make it easier to balance the books at the SATS.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for False Bay will forgive me if I do not follow on what he has had to say because he has spoken mainly of constituency matters, and I want to refer to other matters. However, I should like to say that with regard to the people living at Khayelitsha, I have complete confidence in the capabilities of the hon member for Cape Town Gardens. I have no doubt he has their interests at heart. The hon the Minister, in his introductory speech, spoke about tourism in a passing reference. He said that to promote tourism a concessionary ticket would be made available to the tour leaders of domestic groups, apart from the existing group travel facilities. I am delighted that the hon the Minister of Industries, Commerce and Tourism is present in the House this evening because I am sure he must have been very disappointed in the cursory attention the hon the Minister of Transport Affairs gave to tourism in this Railway Budget. I regret the fact that it was unimaginative and half-hearted, particularly as it only applies to domestic tourism. I am aware that this concession he has offered already applies. There is therefore nothing special about this so-called new concession for group leaders. Anybody who is able to put together a group or a particular number of people qualifies for a free ticket. So there is nothing new in this. I am therefore disappointed to note that there is nothing new regarding tourism, and I should hope that the hon the Minister would discuss this matter with the hon the Minister of Industries, Commerce and Tourism because what we need to get is as many tourists into the country as we possibly can. Once they arrive here they spend hard foreign currency, and badly needed foreign currency at that.

They get a 53% discount.

Tourists from abroad? Foreign tourists?

Leaders of tourist groups.

From abroad?

No, domestic tourists.

That is exactly what I have been saying. The hon the Minister has been a bit narrow in his vision, and he has only been looking at internal tourists. Therefore I ask him to devote some attention to foreign tourists. As I have said, when they arrive in the country they spend hard foreign currency, and it is badly needed foreign currency too, as his bench-mate, the hon the Minister of Finance, will tell him. The way to get those foreign tourists, I believe, is by allowing charter operators to bring them into the country. In the past SA Airways have refused permission for charter operators to obtain licences, insisting that they use SA Airways services. Having raised the matter now, however, I should like to leave it at that. I am simply asking the hon the Minister to look into this matter with a view to removing the restrictions and the restrictive practices of SA Airways. I hope he will do something about it in order to improve the flow of foreign tourists into South Africa.

The second point I want to raise is one that has been raised by hon members on this side of the House today and yesterday. That concerns discrimination or apartheid in the SATS. We have spoken about this often before, and I should like to draw it again to the attention of the hon the Minister. The hon the Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs is on record as saying that apartheid is dead, as indeed the hon the Minister of Co-operation and Development has said, and the hon member for Innesdal also spoke the other day about kicking the dog of apartheid. I want to submit, however, that apartheid is alive and well in the SATS.

The hon the Minister has not replied adequately to the request made from this side of the House concerning the new members of Parliament. How will the Coloured and Indian members of Parliament travel when they make use of the facilities of the SATS? It is very easy to say that to travel from Mitchell’s Plain to Cape Town one can travel on a train for Coloureds. After all, there is only a train for Coloureds on that route. That is therefore quite a simple answer. In that manner the hon the Minister is able to escape from the main thrust of the question, merely by answering in that way.

What about the main line trains, however? What about Mr Jac Rabie, who is the Transvaal leader of the Labour Party. When he becomes a member of the House of Delegates, how is he going to travel to and from a session with his family? What about Mr Miley Richards who is the deputy leader of the Labour Party and who lives in Johannesburg? Mr Rabie lives in Boksburg. If those people choose to travel by train how are they going to travel backwards and forwards between Cape Town and the Witwarersrand?

The same way as they do today—travel first class.

First class?

Yes, if they want to.

Good. I am pleased the hon the Minister has replied to my question in that way.

That has been the position for years.

If they travel first class, are they able to use the facilities of the dining-car?

That can be arranged.

Can any Black person travelling first class use the facilities of the dining-car on the Railways? Suddenly the hon the Minister is “tjoepstil”.

No. I do not want to make a speech now. I shall reply tomorrow.

Mr Chairman, this is a wicked form of discrimination. While I believe it is in order to charge different fares for various services that are provided by the Railways, to provide different services for the same fare is totally unacceptable. On the SA Airways one pays the same fare to fly from Johannesburg to Cape Town irrespective of the race of the traveller. There is no discrimination in this regard. The same seats, the same meals, the same refreshments and the same toilet facilities are available to all travellers.

And a wonderful dining-room.

On the Airways? You can do away with the food! Why do we not have the same position on the trains? If that is the position on the Airways, why is it not the position on the trains? The hon the Minister says now that Blacks can travel first class. Of course they can. However, while they pay the same as Whites they do not have the same facilities. A Black who travels first or second class pays exactly the same fare as does a White but he is not allowed to use the dining-car facility. That is an absolute disgrace, and he should be ashamed of himself. I hope that the hon the Minister is going to do something about it and that he will tell us what he is going to do. I do not know how he can possibly justify this situation. I know that there are all forms of discrimination in this country but to discriminate on these grounds is totally unacceptable and I hope he is going to tell us what he is going to do about it.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Johannesburg North will understand if I do not follow up on what he said. All the hon members are being very serious, and I also want to begin on a serious note, although I want to come back to my friend, the hon member for Worcester, later.

In 1982 the Administration was so kind as to renovate Wellington station. On behalf of the community I want to thank the hon the Minister very much for having this done. Wellington station is an exceptional station. Wellington is smaller than Worcester and its station is also smaller than Worcester station, but the Wellington station is an exceptional one.

If we examine the history of the building of the first railway line from the Cape to Wellington, we find that it was done under Act 20 of 1857. Tenders were called for in England and four tenders were received but none of them were acceptable. The Cape Government then called for tenders in South Africa. Eight tenders were received, and the tender of the Cape Town Railway and Dock Company was accepted. They appointed a contractor by the name of Edward Pickering. I shall come back to this chap later, because he was a remarkable character. The tender price was £400 000.

On 31 March 1859 Sir George Grey dug the first sod of the railway line here in Salt River and straight away all the difficulties which we still experience today when we begin to build roads and railways began. There is nothing new under the sun. The first mistake was discovered when they found that the platform on Salt River station had been built far too high. In that same year the first locomotive arrived here—2½ years before the scheduled time—and that locomotive had to be shunted to one side and left waiting on a siding. The delays with the construction of that railway line were incredible, just as they are today. There was a lack of understanding among the people involved, and the tale in connection with expropriation is a very interesting one. The damage done to property in the course of the construction of that railway line had to be weighted up against the possible benefits of that railway line, but no one wanted the railway line to cross his land.

Many changes were made to the route of the railway line. One place which was affected in this way, was the town which is today known as Stellenbosch, but which in those days was called “Sleepy Hollow”. They encountered difficulties there. They wanted the train to turn around at Paarl, but the people of Paarl would have nothing to do with a train.

The problems were most acute in the case of Wellington. The inhabitants said that that station would not be built three-quarters of a mile outside the town, because the Act stated that is should be inside the town. The Government then said that the station would be built where it had to be built. Today the station is inside the town, and no one complains about it; perhaps we are even grateful for it. In 1859 there was a flurry of correspondence between the Government, the contractor and the inhabitants, and no one received any satisfaction. They then appointed a select committee in the Cape Parliament—select committees were appointed even in those days—to decide where a railway station should be located. That select committee said that the station should be located where the Government said it should be located. The Government said the same thing, but my people did not take it lying down, oh no! They requested an interdict in the Supreme Court, but in the end the court decided no, the station should be located where it is today.

This meant that for three-and-a-half years everything stood still. At the Cape end, too, there were delays for two years. That was when all the trouble with this fellow Edward Pickering began. He was not meek and mild, and he frequently asked for an advance, just as builders do today. The men in charge eventually told him that he could not receive any further advances; he should really begin to build the railway line. He said; “But then I shall stop everything, dismiss my workers and impound all the equipment and the materials.” The company told him that they would not allow that to happen, and they appointed guards to look after it. Pickering then got his people together and on the night of 15 October 1861 they stormed the yard. They took that locomotive and pushed it off the rails into a ditch. A general fracas erupted.

Eventually the whole project was at long last completed, and Governor Woodhouse, after travelling in the new train at the breath-taking speed of 20 to 30 miles per hour, arrived with a great fanfare in Wellington—all the flags were waving and it was a great occasion. This was commemorated last year when Mr Bertie Heckroodt, the Section Manager, again arrived in a train. Everyone was dressed in the style of that era, and again they arrived with a great fanfare—we had a lovely party!

There were a few regulations. That train did not have to pick up any more people if the train was full. If there was room, they picked up the passengers who had to travel the furthest. I want to tell the hon member for Hillbrow that no smoking or card playing was allowed on that train. They did not pick up drunks at all. If a person boarded a train while it was moving, the maximum fine was £2 10s.

This train proved to be very popular, and later, when the railway line had to be extended a certain Oom Pieter Malan—the farm belonged to him—said that they could take the land, but the passenger trains had to stop there. I want to thank the hon the Minister for the fact that this is still the case today—except for one mistake which was made when the Blue Train ran straight through without stopping. This was done so that the people from Wellington could board every train and alight again after having taken a good look at the people on it. So it was that over the years one was able to have a good look at the passengers. President Kruger was one of them. They even went to look see what Jamieson and Cecil Rhodes looked like!

Today I say thank you very much for the renovations, but because it is a unique station, please keep that station beautifully tidy, because it is unique, far more than Worcester station.

Mr Speaker, when I participated in the debate earlier this afternoon, I put a few questions to the hon the Minister in connection with the staff. I felt that those questions were very important and relevant in connection with the staff of the SATS. When the Minister replied to the debate, he himself said they were important questions. When he replied to the questions, the hon the Minister put words in my mouth and attributed something to me which, as I made very clear this afternoon, was not the way I had put it. On the basis of a SATS staff structure, which I assume was established by the Management, I asked what the minimum staff was with which the SATS thought it would be able to operate effectively and purposefully in future. I then spoke about a possible revival in the economy. However, I never said that on the basis of such a possibility the SATS would have to maintain a staff of 275 000, as the hon the Minister, putting words in my mouth, claimed I said.

I did not say that.

The hon the Minister did say that. I never made such a statement because it would have been nonsensical. I spoke about a minimum staff which would also cope with the revival.

I now wish to put a further question to the hon the Minister which I hope he will see in the correct light and reply to.

I was not being nasty to you. It may have been a misunderstanding. Do not nag about it now; I meant it well.

Whether the hon the Minister nags or does not nag about it, I still want to ask him a question. The training of staff is very important. In the nature of things, staff are located in posts for which they have been trained, so that they can render the best and most effective service. What is the policy of the SATS if a person who occupies a post for which he has been trained, equips himself for another post in which he may be more usefully employed owing to his training? Will he be transferred to the other post for which he has better equipped himself and where he can render better and more effective service?

I also want to refer to another matter, namely the workshop complex at Koedoespoort. Last year I tried to sketch a picture for hon members of precisely what is happening at that complex. Unfortunately I do not have the figures with me now, indicating how large the entire complex are and what is under cover or what is open. I want to emphasize this matter this evening, because it brings me to an extremely important point. This entire workshop complex is worth billions of rands. If we had to start building this complex from scratch today, the SATS would not have the money, nor would it have the money over the next 20 years, to develop such a complex.

There are six large workshop blocks. There is the machine workshop block, the boiler workshop block, the assembly workshop block, the truck repairshop block, the vehicle repairshop block and the foundry block. Those blocks are further subdivided into 18 smaller workshops, to which must be added the gas generator, boiler room, the compression chamber, the chemical and metallurgical laboratories and also the training centre for telecommunication apprentices which is still under construction.

On page 48 of the Brown Book several thousand rands are being provided for further expansions to buildings and for the improvement of facilities to make this complex even more important. This complex serves the SATS, the Republic as a whole as well as foreign countries. What worried me two years ago was the fact that this complex was not fenced well enough and that therefore it was not being adequately safeguarded. At that time already I said that this complex should have better fencing so that the billions of rand that had been spent there and were still being spent there, could be made as safe as possible. Two years ago the hon the Minister said that the complex was safe enough.

Last year I repeated what I had said before, that the place was not safe enough. I know what is happening there. I am acquainted with that place. Consequently I made another appeal to the hon the Minister to see to increased safety there. However, he did not reply to me. But now, on page 48 of the Capital Budget, provision is being made for an amount for additional security fencing. [Interjections.]

Then why are you complaining?

Sir, you see now how simple people can be. Surely the fencing is not there yet, and there are buildings worth billions of rand there, which are so important to the country that they are irreplaceable. They should have been safeguarded two years ago. However, it was not done. Now an amount has been estimated, but the amount which is being appropriated is less than the estimate. In other words, there is still not going to be enough money available to safeguard the premises in a proper way. [Interjections.] Those hon members who are shouting now, do not know how important that complex is to the country. If they had known they would have given me their full support. If an attack should be made on this complex, it is not only human lives that would be at stake, but damage running into millions of rand could be done. I am not making a plea on my own behalf. I am doing so in the interests of a very important matter for the whole of South Africa. That is why I want to ask the hon the Minister to give very serious consideration to not appropriating only a portion of what he estimated was necessary to safeguard those premises. He must simply take money from elsewhere—it makes no difference to me from where—where it would be less detrimental and utilize it here in order to ensure the complete safeguarding of the Koedoespoort workshops.

What about the AWB? Cannot they do something there?

The hon member for Welkom, who has just made that remark, is trying to turn this into a joking matter, but it is no joking matter. To me it is a very serious matter, and has been for the last two years.

I want to invite the hon the Minister to join me in a visit to the complex. We can walk along that fence from one point to another so that he can satisfy himself that deficiencies do exist and how essential it is for very urgent attention be given to this complex. He must not wait until it is too late and then be sorry because we did not take action sooner. This is one of the most important places in the Republic, and one of the most important complexes of the SATS. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Koedoespoort made a moving—I would almost say dramatic—plea for the safeguarding of a particular railway complex in his constituency. Should not every metre of our main line railway network also be safeguarded? The main line to Natal over which a large number of passenger trains run night after night runs through my entire constituency. Compare the lives of the passengers on those trains with the physical value of the complex to which the hon member referred. How can the hon the Minister plan for every possible risk in the SATS? How can he protect every main line carrying passenger trains against any possible onslaughts at night—and I am specifically mentioning at night. We have already had some incidents and there is a great risk. We should be grateful that attention has already been given to that aspect. However, the hon member must not think that that is the only or the most important risk that has to be given attention. There are other more important aspects. [Interjections.] A Bill will be introduced in this House shortly in which planning of a different nature for the safeguarding of key points is being envisaged, and possibly the hon member will have an opportunity to make a contribution in this regard on that occasion.

The hon member for Kuruman reproached the hon the Minister about a hostel which is to be erected at Sishen. I want to tell the hon member that the voters of Kuruman are going to throw him out because of that very matter. The planning for such a project does not take place in three days or in three weeks. The planning for that began a number of years ago, and what inputs has the hon member made in the form of submissions and pleas concerning where such a hostel should be built? [Interjections.] I addressed the people of Olifantshoek on occasion; there are fine people living there. They invited me to go and address them again, and I am going to tell them to question the hon member about that project.

We also represent constituencies with Railway facilities. A residential area was planned in a particular area in Volksrust and we made our inputs and pleas. I would not say that we got what we wanted, but we were given a thorough hearing, and welcome adjustments were effected. [Interjections.] So much for that hon member.

I want to thank the hon the Minister for the fact that the trucks on the railway line between Standerton and Vrede are being hauled by diesel locomotive nowadays. The hon the Minister was also the MP for Standerton at one stage.

The good old days!

One of my fine farmers farms along that railway line, and before he really had any sense, he was a member of the NRP. He promised me that as soon as diesel locomotives hauled loads in that area, he would vote National. Now he is not only going to vote National; he is going to give the party a substantial contribution this year. [Interjections.] I therefore want to thank the hon the Minister most sincerely for that concession. It would only have taken place in 1988, but now we have it in 1984. That was a magnificent gesture.

I want to bring up another aspect, and that is the housing facilities the SATS provides for its employees. Every undertaking strives to increase productivity. Productivity depends on different things, inter alia, on the quality of training, on business and management techniques. However, I want to speak about attitude, contentment, and family life in particular—as the background against which the worker has to perform his task on a daily basis. As far as that is concerned, the old saying still applies: It is easy to motivate a happy man in his task. The SATS undoubtedly sees to it that its workers are happy. We must also express our gratitude to the SATS for the housing schemes being made available to its workers. I just want to mention one statistic in this regard. During the financial year which ended on 31 March 1983, 45 890 employees participated in these schemes; R116,8 million was paid in interest, and R55 million was recovered from employees, whilst the subsidy of the SATS alone amounted to R61 million. What does this mean? It means that these people are happy with their accommodation. The old system whereby they occupied a particular house near the railway station has been done away with. Railway officials now have the right to purchase homes anywhere, and today they own luxury houses in which they can live with pride.

The three different schemes are the 100% housing scheme, the 10% housing scheme and thirdly, the scheme supported by the Pension Fund. These schemes are covered by an insurance policy, and if an employee is unable to pay the insurance premium and his instalment, the SATS subsidizes him with regard to the insurance premium as well, which is a fine arrangement. This insurance gives the employee the opportunity to make provision in the event of his death. If such an employee should die, the housing loan is paid off immediately.

With reference to what the hon member for Verwoerdburg said on a previous occasion, I want to ask the hon the Minister to reconsider the possibility of an arrangement whereby when an employee leaves the employ of the SATS due to his being medically unfit, that eventually should also be covered by the insurance policy. We are aware that this aspect is being given attention at present and that one of the possibilities is that the premium will be increased slightly. I am sure that provision could be made for this in some way.

A further request I wish to make with regard to these fine schemes concerns the fact that the SATS sometimes gets private contractors to build houses and other complexes. We have had the experience that those contractors do not always render a sound service in building those constructions and I should like to request that the SATS see to it that the standards laid down are, in fact, implemented in the building of all those constructions.

*Mr Chairman, it is already late in the evening and I shall therefore leave the political comment I wanted to make until tomorrow. The hon member for Standerton spoke about the housing schemes of the SATS and it is a good thing that the Administration is doing this, but if one looks at page 63 of the annual report, for example, one sees something which is quite shocking, viz that R36 million was used to purchase 333 houses. That means that R110 000 was paid for each house and that is something which is becoming problematical for us. However, that is something that has political implications and I shall rather say more about that tomorrow. All I want to do this evening, is to ask a few questions and to give a compliment or two.

Just before the adjournment for supper I received a message from one of my voters. He said that I must tell the hon the Minister that Eddie O’Gorman from Plumbing Supplies says that the hon the Minister should be complimented on the fact that it does not matter how well a piece of machinery is packed, the hon the Minister’s department are the only people who can succeed in breaking a ball-bearing imbedded deep inside a piece of machinery without damaging the packaging. The other compliment comes from me. It is a very good thing that the hon the Minister was so obliging towards the Minister of Agriculture by taking over that lot of third-grade potatoes from him. I did my share on the flight from Johannesburg on Sunday evening, but I hope that bargain is past now and that the quality of the potatoes will be a little better. When the hon the Minister and his department speak of rationalization and withdrawing uneconomic services, we support them wholeheartedly. A main line, the Greytown branch line, as well as a narrow gauge line run through my constituency. Rationalization has already begun with regard to certain stations in that area. This has been done in conjunction with the Systems Manager and the farming communities. I am pleased that everyone was informed about this timeously and that because both sides laid their cards on the table, it was possible to reach a compromise. The result was perhaps not precisely what the Railways or the farmers wanted, but a compromise was reached to the effect that instead of closing down certain stations completely, one station master would man three stations at different times of the day. In that way there is a tremendous saving, whilst the level of service is still being maintained virtually unchanged.

When a decision has to be made whether or not to do away with a certain service for the sake of rationalization, there are certain problem areas. One of these is how to determine the cost. One speaks of a loss, but how is that loss determined? Are the historical costs of the line concerned taken into account, or is the average cost of capital throughout the entire railway system also allocated to those lines regarded as being uneconomical? Another question is: Would one not make a completely different decision if one were to take marginal costs or historical costs into account? A line such as the Greytown line was built a century ago. It has therefore been paid for a long time ago. However, if that line has to contribute to covering the cost of the total system in which new capital is involved, one could possibly make a wrong decision.

The next question is: Are other alternatives being considered? Let me explain what I mean by that. The Minister is the Minister of Transport Affairs. He is not merely the Minister in charge of the Railways. Unfortunately we are unable to look at the whole picture in this debate, since institutions like the provincial administrations and the National Roads Division are also involved. However, when consideration is being given to closing a certain line, one must look at alternatives in the interests of the country, for example, new roads that have to be built and fuel which is leaving the country. Therefore, when one has to take a drastic decision to close down an old line which has been paid for long ago, I think one should take off one’s railway cap and look a little further before taking such a step.

The entire department and many officials devote an entire year to preparing all these documents for us. We then have to study them in a few days and try to make a contribution. I just want to make a few requests in this regard. Firstly, could we please have a definition of the cost system somewhere in the annual report of how costs, etc, are determined, so that one will know what is being allocated. Secondly, could we have the same cost and revenue items so that one can compare them? Thirdly—and this is perhaps the most important thing—could our transport group be invited to meet with the hon the Minister’s officials before the next budget in order to clear up certain matters so that one can conduct a positive debate?

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Greytown will probably understand if I do not elaborate on his speech. I wish to refer to matters that are very important to my own constituency. These are matters I should like to bring to the attention of the hon the Minister. At present, Germiston is engaged in …

Where is Germiston?

Germiston is a large city on the East Rand. It is the sixth largest city in the Republic, and the fourth largest city in the Transvaal. [Interjections.] I should just like to make it clear to the hon the Minister that Germiston is at present engaged in an urban renewal project to the value of R350 million. Part of this renewal is taking place in the Germiston West, Germiston South and Georgetown areas. Now Germiston’s rail links are somewhat unique in comparison with those of any other town or city in the Republic. In fact, Germiston is surrounded by railway lines. Germiston is the central centre between north and south, as well as between east and west; which is quite different from Johannesburg and Pretoria, Port Elizabeth, Cape Town and other cities, for example. It is also true that there are large Black cities to the south of Germiston, which developed a long time ago. This took place in the ’fifties and the ’sixties. A considerable number of commuters come from these cities during the week. Of course, we find no fault with that. After all, we believe that the SATS is providing an excellent service there.

What we do find, however, is the following. Those people tend to come to the centre of Germiston on Saturdays. We can understand that as well, since it is on the main route past Germiston to Johannesburg. Unfortunately, stations that are normally used by commuters to travel to the industrial areas are crowded. I am referring to stations at Simmer Pan and India Junction, for example.

What happens is that people alight from the train there and thousands of them move from the south east right through the centre of Germiston, through the main street to the north west, where there is a free trade area. This area is in the vicinity of the Germiston railway station. As far as traffic in the city centre is concerned, this phenomenon causes a considerable amount of disruption. Of course, we can understand that when hundreds, even thousands of people, move through the central area of a large city, just because they want to move from one side to the other, motor traffic, as well as pedestrian traffic in the entire city centre is disrupted. Now I just want to ask whether it is perhaps possible—and I am speaking only of Saturdays—to try to let some of those trains use the main line from Natal via the Germiston station during peak hours. Perhaps it would also be possible to let passengers who are travelling from the south to Johannesburg make use of trains that do not stop at all the stations.

Then there is another extremely important aspect which I should now like to bring to the attention of the hon the Minister. Last week we approved legislation here in this House with regard to the right to conduct trade on SATS property. The hon member for Standerton has also just mentioned accommodation for the staff of the SATS. There is a residential area for the staff of the SATS bordering one of the areas in Germiston which is now being redeveloped, which I believe constitutes a number of hectares. At a rough estimate, I would go so far as to say that only approximately 25% of that area is occupied. There is an old sports club there which was famous many years ago. I am referring to the old Railway Institute—people simply referred to it as the GRI for short. I think that club is being used by private undertakings nowadays. In view of what was approved by way of legislation in this House last week, I want to ask whether the hon the Minister would not perhaps consider demolishing the few remaining houses in that area, and to offer those people better accommodation elsewhere, as the hon member for Standerton suggested, by granting SATS home loans to those people. People can, in fact, obtain loans—they can even obtain loans of 100%—and can be resettled in this ways. I believe that that land which is not being utilized by the SATS at present is eminently suitable for more useful purposes.

I can assure this House that the municipality of Germiston does not maintain that area in any way. By the way, that is private property, of course. It therefore serves no purpose for the municipality to maintain it. Even the roads are neglected, and the whole area is really a slum area.

Land for the establishment of light industries in the Germiston municipal area is being sold for approximately R200 per square metre at present. I therefore believe that if the SATS should perhaps be interested in redeveloping that area itself, or even in making it available to the private sector for development, it would really be to the benefit of the Administration.

The final matter I want to bring to the attention of the hon the Minister is the President station, which serves as Germiston’s second station. This station runs right across Germiston’s main street. Not only is it used by train passengers, but it also joins the east and west sides of the Germiston city centre. My plea in this regard this evening is that if possible we should be given the services of an additional few Railway policemen there. The South African Police are able to deal with the situation as far as the entrance of the station as well as at the exit, but when people walk over the bridges or through the subways, they are exposed to pickpockets and the so-called muggers. They are also attacked. We should be very pleased if the hon the Minister could assist us in this regard.

Mr Chairman, I listened very attentively to the hon member for Germiston and I support him wholeheartedly in his plea. Germiston plays a very important role on the East Rand, since it is a junction, as well as one of the large centres of the SATS in South Africa. It would be in the interests of the whole of the East Rand and South Africa if his very friendly request could be complied with. We hope that the hon the Minister has given ear to it.

I put the following question to the hon the Minister on 15 February 1984:

1. (1) Which stations are the control stations on South Africa’s borders;
2. (2) whether the stations concerned have been upgraded; if not, why not; if so, why?

The hon the Minister gave me the names of the stations concerned and I must say there are more of them than I thought. I am grateful for this comprehensive explanation, since I did not think there were so many. The hon the Minister also replied that on none of the stations had the intensity of the activities increased to such an extent that they justified upgrading.

I put a further question to the hon the Minister in this regard on Wednesday, 22 February, viz:

1. (1) Whether the staff of the control stations to which he referred … have any additional duties in respect of (a) customs and (b) other consequential matters on account of the location of these stations; if so, what additional duties in each case;
2. (2) whether additional staff are allocated to these stations as a result; if not,
3. (3) whether the present staff receive any additional remuneration in respect of these duties; if no., why not; if so, what is the nature of the additional remuneration.?

The reply of the hon the Minister was “No” with regard to question (1) (a) and (b), and (2) and (3) lapsed. As far as this matter is concerned, when I was still active in trade, I had a great deal to do with imports and exports and I know that it entails a great deal of work. I do, in fact, wonder whether this specific staff matter could not possibly be reconsidered, since when someone is in charge of a control station and goods are sent across the borders, it is obvious that it is quite possible that there will be more work. It is for this very reason that I want to ask whether this matter could not be re-examined. If it is the case that there is more work, the remuneration of those specific officials should be given attention. Perhaps I do not have all the facts at my disposal, but that may be the case. As far as such a station on the border of some country or homeland or another is concerned, it is obvious that there must be more documentation, and when there is more documentation, there is more work, of course. I shall therefore leave that matter to the hon the Minister.

I put various questions to the hon the Minister and I have no doubt that I shall receive a comprehensive reply at some stage, even if it is in the form of a letter. However, I know that it is impossible for him to reply to all the questions put to him in the time at his disposal. That is reasonable, and I accept it as such.

I want the hon the Minister to know—I am saying this from the bottom of my heart—that I have a great deal of sympathy with him. Perhaps he does not need it, but I want him to know that this is not petty politicking; it is the simple truth. The hon the Minister said in his speech:

The hon the Minister is correct; he does not know. The new State President will decide, and since railways and transport services are general affairs, it will be possible, according to the hon the Minister, that a person of colour could even be appointed as a Minister by the future State President. During the previous Parliamentary session the hon the Minister did, in fact, tell the hon member for Langlaagte, Mr S P Barnard, that this could be the case, but the hon the Minister denied this at Bilge River. Because there is doubt in our minds now, we would very much appreciate it if the hon the Minister could give us his opinion. We are not asking that what he is going to tell us should be the law of the Medes and Persians, nor will we deem him bound by it. All we are asking is that he should do his best, and surely that is a very reasonable request. We are not being funny with the hon the Minister. We are asking him this question because we are concerned about the people in the employ of the Transport Services. We are not only concerned about the Whites, as the hon the Minister said; we are concerned about all the people working for the SATS, but each in his own field—no mixing. If there is someone on the opposite side of the House who does not realize the implications of the new constitution, he should really go and read the constitution, since it means the end of the White man in South Africa. It is as simple as that.

Nor must we rely on the results of the recent referendum, since people were misled as never before by way of the propaganda that was spread at the time. Professional people like Prof S A S Strauss were used, and he told people half-truths on television. Certain matters were withheld from the people of South Africa. He simply rushed through general affairs in South Africa. Now our people are expected to believe those things. There are professional liars who made use of our television service to mislead the people, but the people are going to find out about these things and then they are going to deal mercilessly with this Government. Let us not be misled by that result; it is a result based on half-truths and lies.

Mr Chairman, if the time for the adjournment of the House was established on the same basis as the arrival time of trains, then there would probably still have been a great deal of time left to deal with the hon the member for Nigel, because towards the end of his speech he spoke like a pump trolley hurtling down an incline in order to pronounce a curse on us.

We were probably all very gratified to hear about the drop in the expected deficit of the SATS. This is the result of thorough planning and effectiveness, and this process has not caused disruption by virtue of substantial cutting of services. This merely goes to show once again that if one has a good cause, one must simply persevere. Once, at a meeting of an agricultural credit committee at Upington, a magistrate said to a farmer: Man, I see in your financial statements that you have operated at a loss for the past number of years, and you are planning a loss for next year as well, but you nevertheless have the temerity to approach the committee this morning to ask the State for a loan! The farmer replied: No, Mr Magistrate, that is not quite how it works; the Railways have been operating at a loss for years, and no one has ever told them to cease operating. The SATS and farming are more or less the same. Both supply an essential service, and if supplying this service entails losses, then one says what one says when the baboon falls off the train onto the track: Hard lines!

I want to refer to certain aspects of the Sishen/Saldanha railway line, but not in the spirit of demands and reproaches, as the hon member for Kuruman did. It is more in a spirit of motivating why I think this line should be given attention. There is a great deal of concern about the under-utilization of this line. When it was planned originally, it was expected that 15 million tons of ore would be conveyed on this line annually. Only in 1979-80 was this target approached, when 16,4 million tons of ore was conveyed. Since that time there has been a drop in the price of iron ore and a drop in production, with the result that over the past year only 7 million tons of ore was conveyed.

The accumulated losses are estimated at R90 million by June this year, and by next June they will amount to R240 million. In view of this, a commission has been appointed to investigate the better utilization of this line and to find solutions. Although other minerals such as lead, copper and zinc concentrate, as well as salt, are conveyed, consideration must be given to the conveyance of agricultural products and passengers. To make this possible, this railway line will have to be extended to the Witwatersrand. In this process the railway line will have to be shortened by 225 kilometres. In the second place, consideration will have to be given to the construction of a station at the place where the Sishen/Saldanha railway line crosses the Orange River, with a view to loading products such as lucerne, maize and livestock there. The Orange River is, of course, also suited to the provision of water for large-scale purification works for the processing of minerals.

A station at the junction of this railway line with the Prieska/Upington railway line would also entail considerable benefits. There could then be transportation to Cape Town and South West Africa. We are sure that the cost benefit in the short-term would not justify all these improvements, but a long-term approach must be adopted. At the moment there is extremely heavy traffic on our tarred roads, whereas rail transport is being under-utilized. There is an increase in the population and, as a result, a higher demand for food, and there is considerable potential in the Northern Cape that could be utilized if we could expand and acquire this transport system.

These possibilities must be considered, to the benefit of the SATS and in order to stimulate the area served by this railway line.

Mr Chairman, the hon the Minister is entitled to mention with satisfaction that he and his department were the first to foresee the economic recession on the horizon. In saying that he is not praising himself, but is simply paying tribute to his own professional staff for their foresight.

What is important is that the SATS did not only foresee this problem. They also took timely action to prepare for this recession. There is a lesson to be learnt here, and that is quite simply that people do not discipline themselves. One needs the winds of adversity to get people who tend to be self-indulgent and lazy—as are all of us—off their butts. That is why competition is a valuable thing. The speed and degree with which the SATS managed to bring about its economies is an indication that it is easier to lose 20 pounds in weight when is 40 pounds overweight than when one is already thin and lean like the hon the Minister and myself. This, however, does not detract from the achievement of the SATS in doing that. It has brought about a reduction in staff involving 37 000 people and it has introduced economies which reduced a budgeted deficit of R634 million to a virtual break square position in the past financial year. The hon the Minister is to be commended when he says that his job is not to protect White workers but to protect all SATS workers. He tells us that no permanent workers were dismissed, although the work force was reduced by 37 000 workers. I would, however, be pleased if he would answer certain questions for me.

Would he first of all tell me how many of the current work force of about 240 000 are White? Secondly, how many are permanent? Thirdly, of these permanent workers how many are White? Finally, how many of the 37 000 staff retrenched were White? [Interjections.]

The hon the Minister has granted a 12% salary increase across the board. Would he also please tell us what his budgeted personnel complement for the 1984-85 financial year is and how that compares with the 1983-84 financial year? Secondly, can he also tell us how his budgeted total remuneration for the 1984-85 financial year compares with the actual figure for 1983-84? My reason for asking this question is that it is possible to give increases in all sorts of different guises. They can come as occupational differentiation or they can come as promotions. I would suggest that all we can do in the present circumstances is to give a maximum of 12% of last year’s remuneration. I think that should be a ceiling figure and that it should be handed to management to distribute at its discretion according to sensible criteria.

The aspect of the hon the Minister’s speech which is concerned me most was his identification of the greatest threat to the SATS as being its shrinking share of the market. He talks as if the SATS has a particular right to grow. Of course that is nonsense. No matter how important a role the SATS has played in our economic history it really must depend for its continued existence on its ability to be our best method of transportation. There are many considerations that must be borne in mind when making this judgment. There are strategic, economic and other considerations. This means that the SATS is bound to fulfil a changing role and will survive only if it also can adapt and evolve.

I have no quarrel with the hon the Minister when he says that the SATS will attempt to increase its share of the market by all sorts of innovations, marketing stratagems and new technologies. That is sensible, economic, fair and above-board business. However, he then goes on to state that the SATS’s share of the market has fallen to 33,3%. Would the hon the Minister tell us how that market is calculated? Is it done on the basis of money or ton-kilometres travelled? What constitutes the total transport market? Does it for example include short-term transport in town, which is quite unsuitable for normal SATS operations? What makes him believe that the SATS should have any certain proportion of the total market? Surely the important consideration is that the nation’s transport is carried out in the most sensible and effective manner possible.

The hon the Minister then uses the socioeconomic services performed by the SATS—and these services amount to approximately R1 billion—to prove that it is hamstrung in its efforts to compete with private enterprise. I have never yet heard any private operator suggest that this is a burden that the department should continue to carry. On the contrary, one and all believe that the SATS should not run any particular operation for socio-economic reasons at below cost. I do not believe that anybody expects that. If the Government believes that some circumstances warrants special consideration, then it must be prepared to compensate the SATS for that particular function. That amount must come before Parliament and must be scrutinized and approved annually. It is an interesting point that arises. If this large amount that the SATS loses in socio-economic services were suddenly to be compensated for through Parliament—and it is a break even situation at the moment—what would the SATS use that surplus for? What worries the private sector is that that additional money that would then be coming in, would be used to swamp the private sector completely in the areas where it impinges upon the operations of the SATS. In such a circumstance obviously the SATS must then renounce the special benefits that it receives, if it is going to compete fairly, and the hon the Minister has declared its ability to compete fairly. However, then the SATS must renounce certain benefits such as the fuel price advantage of 20c per litre and various other advantages.

Only when we move away from the random imposition of tax on specific goods and industries, which is the reverse side of cross-subsidization, can we do our sums correctly and make proper economic decisions. The hon the Minister says he supports competition on equal terms, and the private sector finds no fault with this. All it asks is that the Road Transportation Act be administered fairly and impartially and that the Government stop paying lip service to certain concepts like the free enterprise system and promoting the informal sector. Furthermore, the Government should stop harassing the private haulage industry and forget about the type of proposed legislation that we understand it is considering in connection with Black taxis.

The hon the Minister has spoken of the suburban train service and the phenomenon of “verdringing” and crime on the suburban lines. However, there is another aspect of suburban transport that I want to bring to the hon the Minister’s attention. Every morning I leave Harfield Village and I see trains pulling into the station with the non-White compartments “stampvol” and numbers of people clinging to the outside of the carriages. On the other hand, the White compartments are only one third full. This is an absolute Tzarist Russia sight and I think the hon the Minister should have a look at that. Anybody who finds himself in that situation, clinging to the outside of a carriage whilst the White compartments are not even half full, must have thoughts that verge on violence.

While the hon the Minister’s appointment of a national transport policy study group has shown that he understands clearly the complexity of the whole transport problem in this country or any country, I gather that it is going to be a very long-term study and that possibly it will only be finalized in a year or two. Is it possible that the National Transport Commission will be getting an interim report and would the hon the Minister consider making that report available to the public? It would help a lot of people if he would do this. To encourage public debate on this matter at that stage would, I believe, be very useful.

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order No 22.

House Resumed:

Progress reported and leave granted to sit again.