Mr Chairman, I have a few important matters, I believe, which I should like to raise with the hon the Minister. The first one is about the Khayelitsha rail link, about which a report appeared in today’s newspaper. I also refer to the hon the Minister’s reply to a question placed on the Question Paper by the hon member for Cape Town Gardens. The hon the Minister has given a very disconcerting reply to this question. We all know that Khayelitsha is destined to be the main Black township of Cape Town; that there are plans in the future to move the residents of the settled townships of Nyanga, Guguletu and Langa to Khayelitsha, which is some 30 km outside the city. Already if one visits that sandy stretch of land one finds that there are in fact hundreds of tin shanties already established on those sandy wastes, and something like 500 people are already living there.

The transport situation, I believe, is calamitous. At the moment those people—largely unskilled workers—have to pay 50 cents to get from Khayelitsha to Nyanga, another 50 cents to get from Nyanga to Claremont, from where they have to catch a train to wherever they happen to be employed. Most of them are daily unskilled workers. They are paying therefore something like R1,50 each way each day, which means R3 a day, while they are fortunate, I suppose, if they earn R10 a day. Now we learn that the plans for a rail link are not even complete. According to the reply given to the hon member for Cape Town Gardens they are still being examined by a metropolitan advisory board, while the city council of Cape Town is also undertaking a special study. We do of course know the history of what happened at Mitchell’s Plain, where thousands of people were moved before the rail link was completed. It took something like two years before adequate transport was provided for those people who had been moved from areas near where they worked to Mitchell’s Plain, which is about 20 km to 25 km outside of Cape Town. I think it is bad enough that people have to contemplate to move, something with which they heartily disagree, and indeed, on top of that, considerable consternation already exists among the residents of the three settled Black townships in Cape Town, without transport even being ready or available for them once they have to move. I hope the hon the Minister is going to treat this matter as a matter of utmost urgency so that some of the undertakings given by the hon the Minister of Cooperation and Development in this regard will at least be fulfilled. That, Sir, is one of the issues I wish to raise with the hon the Minister.

I now come to something perhaps a little less local but just as discriminatory in its own way. That is the question of the employment of women by SA Airways. I happen to be one of the admirers of SA Airways. I think it is an extremely good service. It is punctual and it is safe. [Interjections.] I think those are the two most important things that one demands from an air service. I am told, however, by a number of the female employees that there is discrimination as far as their employment is concerned. They do not get promotion when they should get them. They find that men who have shorter terms of service than they have are promoted over their heads from clerk to senior clerk. What has happened is that the ground staff used to be employed as ground staff or ground hostesses. Then their nomenclature was changed to clerk and their service was dated from April 1980—although they may have been employed many years before—when the nomenclature was changed to clerk. On top of that men who had been employed there for far shorter periods have been promoted over the heads of the female staff members to senior clerks. There is a great deal of dissatisfaction among the women staff in this regard.

The other source of dissatisfaction is the fact that male employees—crew, cabin staff as well as ground staff, I believe—are given one free air trip per year when they go on leave together with their wives and families. If they take more than one trip a year they pay 10% of the normal fare for the second trip. This does not apply to the female employees. They are allowed one free air trip for themselves but if they are married and have children the same privilege does not extend to them. This is part of the hon the Minister’s misogyny.

He is a woman hater.

Yes, of course he is. [Interjections.] The hon the Minister has not yet accepted the fact that it is not only men who are the bread-winners these days. In very many cases it is the women who are the mainstay of the family, and there can be no excuse in the 1980s for South Africa to cling to this archaic idea that only the men are the bread-winners of the family.

I therefore hope very much that the hon the Minister will examine that aspect of Airways employees’ views.

I come back now to a point already raised by the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central. That concerns the question of the employment of Black, Coloured and Asian women as air hostesses and as members of the ground staff of the SA Airways. I wonder if it occurs to the hon the Minister that the sight of a Black air hostess attired in SA Airways uniform marching off an SA Airways aircraft at Heathrow Airport of at J F Kennedy Airport would have a very considerable psychological effect on South Africa’s relationships with the outside world. I wonder if the hon the Minister is now going to take some courage into his hands, forget about the protestations of hon members of the CP, and begin to employ Black air hostesses, not only as ground staff but also as cabin crew on our airlines. I believe this will make a very considerable difference to South Africa’s image in the outside world. I hardly need to tell the hon the Minister that I expect them to be employed under exactly the same service conditions as those that apply to White male and female staff.

By the way, it is not only females that should be employed but Black males too—as ground staff and as cabin crew members on the SA Airways. To see some Black males as well as Coloured and Asian male employees, would do a great deal for race relations in South Africa.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Houghton raised a few very important matters but, unfortunately, for the first time she told a deliberate lie. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon the Minister must withdraw the words “deliberate lie”.

Mr Chairman, I withdraw them. It was very wrong of the hon member to say that I hate women.

The Khayelitsha matter is very serious. It is 30 km away from Cape Town and the hon the Minister of Co-operation and Development is in constant contact with me in this regard. We are waiting for the result of an investigation by the Metropolitan Advirsory Board and the Cape Town City Council. We have been told that they will have a report for us by 30 June.

What happens to the people there in the meantime?

In the meantime we can make bus transport available. It is impossible to build a railway line within two weeks.

No, but you could make a start.

One can start but one first has to be given the green light from the people investigating the whole matter. I realize that this is a very serious matter and in the meantime we can give our attention to bus transport.

May I please ask a question? As of June last year, the hon the Minister expected a decision to be made by the end of 1983. This was what he said in reply to a supplementary question. Can he tell us why there now appears to have been a further six months delay in the decision?

Mr Chairman, once we have the report from the body investigating this matter, we will be able to have a decision by the end of June. After that, it is a matter of the necessary finance and so forth. As I say, however, one cannot build a railway line of some 32 km overnight. The building of such a line will probably take a year or two. In the meantime, however, alternative transport will have to be provided. That is why I say that we will have to consider the question of bus transport, which is subsidized up to about 70%.

The hon member for Houghton said a wonderful thing about SA Airways. She said that it was punctual and safe. It is very encouraging to hear that sort of remark from an hon member of the official Opposition. As far as the question of women not getting promotion is concerned, why do they not contact me? I go to various airports and I talk freely to the women.

They are frightened of you, Hendrik. [Interjections.]

I am sure they are not frightened of me. This is a very important point. However, I have never received any letters in regard to this matter. We appointed a woman as head of the Medical Department of the SATS, a beautiful young lady. She is head of that department. However, I shall go into this matter and inform the hon member of the outcome by letter. [Interjections.] I shall have a personal interview with the hon member in her office. [Interjections.]

As far as air hostesses are concerned, I cannot give the hon member full information in this regard now because she did not give me notice that she would be asking questions about this matter. I was told that I had to reply at 14h15 today but then I was told subsequently that there would be one further Opposition speaker before I had to reply. I can tell the hon member that I am anxious to have other Coloured people as air hostesses. We have already appointed Coloureds and Indians and if a Black lady can serve me in a posh five-star hotel with a cup of coffee whilst lying in bed, I cannot see any reason why a Black lady cannot serve me with a tray of coffee in an aeroplane. I cannot see a thing wrong with it. However, there are a large number of factors that have to be taken into consideration in the appointment of air hostesses from an international point of view. Let me mention just one, namely, a person cannot be overweight. [Interjections.] These women have to operate in a narrow passageway. I shall go into the matter. As I say, I am anxious. It will contribute to the good image of South Africa. It is not the case that we are against it as a matter of policy. As I have indicated, we have already appointed exceptionally well trained Coloureds and Indians who are doing an excellent job. I shall pay attention to the matter which the hon member has raised.

I should now like to come back to the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central. The hon member enquired about synthol as an alternative fuel. I take it that the hon member has synthetic alcohol in mind. Extensive tests are being carried out on diesel locomotives with a mixture of diesel and propanol-plus which is also a by-product of Sasol. The tests should be completed by the middle of 1984. If successful, this fuel will also be used in harbour craft. I wish to thank the hon member for this suggestion.

The hon member wanted to know why SAA objected to the introduction of the Concorde on South African routes. The hon member is a patriot and he should fight for SAA. He should enquire from other countries why they do not allow the Concorde. The Concorde is operated on a subsidized basis and this gives rise to unfair competition. Everybody knows what problems are attached to the Concorde. It is not an economically viable plane, and therefore it is subsidized by the two governments that invested money in the project. [Interjections.] The introduction of the Concorde on such a basis will result in unfair competition. The Concorde is aimed at the first-class passenger market and will remove the more profitable portion of revenue on existing flights. This loss will have to be recovered on other flights and therefore the levels of fares will have to be pushed up. Once we introduce the Concorde, we shall lose passengers on our 747s and then we shall have to increase fares.

The hon member asked me about Marriotts. He wanted to know whether they compensate SAA for late departures. He mentioned 26 flights which were delayed because of the late delivery of food. Let me point out that only six of the 26 delays occurred because of the late delivery of food. We cannot recover the loss which we suffered in this regard from Marriotts. All of a sudden we find that people prefer a certain type of food, and then we have to contact Marriotts. Perhaps we have to tell them that there will be more Jews on a particular flight and therefore we require more kosher food. We cater for all kinds of people. We even cater for vegetarians. When we suddenly get a lot of such people, we phone Marriotts and request them to alter the menu for 25 people on a particular plane. This is the reason for the six delays.

*I want to thank the hon member for De Kuilen for helping me, and I congratulate him on having answered the Opposition so effectively. He also replied on the issue of people of colour. He placed the increases in fares in perspective. He emphasized the point that the drop in shipping at our harbours is due to the economic downturn and that it is not a matter of bad business.

The day before yesterday I replied courteously to the Second Reading speech of the hon member for Koedoespoort. I answered the hon member’s question; he need only go and read Hansard, The hon member adopted a very strange attitude towards me yesterday. He is the only member of the CP who has addressed me in this way. I have asked the Management to take Hansard and reply to the hon member by letter. Two years ago he questioned me about the security of Koedoespoort. As he requested me, we gave attention to the matter, and in this Budget there is an amount of R432 000 set aside for ensuring the security of Koedoespoort. The money is earmarked for spending this year. We saw last night the attitude adopted by the hon member. Even if someone differs with me as far as politics are concerned, he must not launch a bitter attack on me if I have given him an answer. Nor must he say that the answer is different to what appears in Hansard. He must just go and read what my reply was yesterday with regard to the staff.

I am very grateful to the hon member for Gezina for his reference to the ATKV. This is an organization which is very close to his heart and mine. I thank him, too, for the effective way in which he dealt with the Opposition arguments.

†The hon member for Amanzimtoti asked me to look into the question of debiting free journeys to a particular account. SATS is investigating a magnetic card system for personnel, a system which, together with electronic ticket issuing machines, will ensure separate accounting. He also wanted to know whether attention was being given to better control of passenger revenue. This aspect is receiving urgent attention. A pilot automatic fare collecting system will soon be in operation at certain stations on the Reef and if successful will be extended to all major centres. In addition, the fencing of stations is also being improved to allow us to exercise better control.

*The hon member for Sundays River gave a clear explanation of colour relations with regard to the SATS, and I thank him for that.

The hon member for Soutpansberg touched on a few aspects concerning to which I did not react to him in my reply yesterday. The time of departure of the train between Pretoria and Messina was changed from 2 April to enable that train to arrive at its destination 30 minutes earlier. He also mentioned beggars along our train routes. That is a problem. Piccanins stand on station platforms and when a train comes in they ask the passengers for a few cents. The police cannot always get rid of these people. Moreover, there is a serious drought in the Northern Transvaal. In any event, the hon member has now brought the matter to our attention, and we shall consider the matter sympathetically.

The hon member for Uitenhage requested us to give urgent consideration to decentralization in the Port Elizabeth-Uitenhage region. I believe that the country-wide container tariff will contribute towards this. Moreover, we are prepared to negotiate transport agreements with consignors. I replied yesterday to the other questions asked by the hon member.

The hon member for Bloemfontein North asked whether informative tapes about South Africa could not be presented on our aircraft. There are five or six channels on overseas flights and we shall try to arrange for one of those channels to present information on South Africa. He also requested that the Flying Springbok present factual articles on South Africa. I agree with the idea and will give attention to the matter. Then, too, the hon member asked us to provide interesting facts on domestic flights, eg about the PK le Roux Dam and the H F Verwoerd Dam. The trouble is, however, that the pilots have to attend to the flying. I might mention in passing that this matter has been discussed before. It is amazing that the greatest amount of criticism we have from our domestic travellers is that a passenger wants to read, write or sleep. When information is broadcast every now and again …

Hear, hear!

My colleague Dawie wants to sleep a little because he goes jogging at nighttime!

†The hon member for Durban Point requested that hot water be made available at more stations and on trains in South West Africa and that the cloakroom hours at Windhoek be extended. The Management will investigate the proposal and if at all practicable will provide hot water at more stations. The cloakroom hours will be adapted if necessary.

The hon member also requested that an annuity of 50% or interest on pension contributions be granted to people dismissed for reasons other than fraud. The position is that as from 1 January 1981 interest is paid on pension contributions of ex-employees who had more than 13 years service and who were dismissed without an annuity. No statutory provision exists whereby interest can be paid prior to this date.

Who not?

We cannot go back 30, 40 years. The hon member after all referred only to 12 or so cases. We will go into these matters and come back to the hon member. The hon member put a question on the Question Paper about the cloakroom at Windhoek and about other matters. He will receive a reply by 18h30 today. You see, Sir, if I reply to him earlier he might come back and we must finish this debate.

*The hon member for Schweizer Reneke made the shortest speech of all. It took only two and a half minutes. He is a young member and is going to be married one of these days. In the short time that he spoke, he raised very important matters. There is a severe drought in the Western Transvaal, and in Natal and parts of the far Eastern Transvaal grazing is available. We are attending to the matter, but when cattle are transported at a rebate of 75%, the SATS is compensated for this debate by the central Government. I shall take the matter up with the hon the Minister of Agriculture and the hon the Minister of Finance. It does offer a solution if we can take the nucleus of a farmer’s herd to grazing instead of taking the grazing to the herd.

The hon member for Kuruman asked about the building of the Sishen-Pudimoe railway line. In the present economic situation, however, capital cannot be devoted to projects which are not justified at present. Essential projects must be given priority in the national interest. However, the project has been set down for possible financing during 1989. I am sorry to give hon members this answer, but that is our problem.

The hon member for Mossel Bay also asked for a once-only rectification of pensions. I want to give hon members the assurance that I am by no means unsympathetic as regards the financial position of SATS pensioners. I shall continue to afford relief to the best of our financial ability. At a later stage I shall inform hon members fully by way of a circular about the position of pensioners who retired before 1973, in comparison with other pensioners. The hon member also spoke about the train Tootsie, and I am pleased that this train is being so well supported. This will mean that steam will not be entirely forgotten. We must continue to have respect for the oxwagon and the steam locomotive.

The hon member for Kuruman referred to the section hostel at Sishen. That complex is not a hostel. It accommodates people who have to be close to their place of employment. We are building a section hostel for workers who have to arrive promptly at the scene of a derailment or any other problem. To have them sleep 60 km away in a homeland is impracticable. We have similar section hostels throughout the country, and the system works very well. These people used to live in hovels, but the section hostel has now been completed so that workers in the Sishen-Postmasburg area can be close to their place of work.

The hon member for Rosettenville spoke about the chaplains who are responsible for the spiritual preparedness of members of the SA Railway Police. Four reservist chaplains are already serving, while a clergyman at Esselen Park is responsible inter alia for the spiritual preparedness of our police recruits. We take a personal interest in this matter and we shall contact the hon member again in this regard.

†The hon member for Bezuidenhout referred to the inflationary influence of low interest rates on the price of houses. I cannot agree that this inflates the housing market. The loans are restricted to R65 000, which is conservative compared with similar loans made available by other institutions and having regard to the present purchase price of houses. The hon member suggested that SATS should purchase property for its Black employees while prices are relatively low. We are actively engaged in acquiring properties and we are looking into the whole question of Black housing.

*The hon member for Worcester said that he did not wish to praise me, and I appreciate that. There is the story about a man who wanted to sell two coach horses. The near horse was a mule, a hinny, and, like some members of the Opposition, worth nothing. The off horse, however, was a good, lively horse. However, the seller kept praising the hinny highly. Eventually the farmer asked him why he said nothing about the off horse. The seller replied: “You see, the off horse sells itself.” In the same way, I sell myself. I promise the hon member for Worcester that he made such a fine speech that we shall paint Worcester station within three months. That is service for you! That only happened because the hon member has such a polite way of making a request. As regards his inquiry about the donation to Worcester of a steam locomotive, I can say to the hon member that we shall negotiate with the town council of Worcester about that next week.

The hon member for Sunnyside referred to the financing costs. The burden of interest of the SATS is closely watched, and an effort is being made to improve the proportion of self-generated to outside capital. This is an important aspect to which the hon member referred. He also referred to self-financing. Due to the sensitivity of the SATS to business cycles and the competitive situation, it is necessary to strive towards a reasonable degree of self-financing.

The hon member added that we should inform the people about the position relating to uneconomic branch lines. Two Cape MPs have been informed in this regard. Members are informed that a specific branch line is to be closed. The MP then approaches the people and the farmers’ associations. The Management then addresses the farmers’ association, the town council and other interested parties. Usually the people are quite satisfied, because instead of a train, which is totally uneconomic—for example, one train a week that only transports postbags and a few sacks of sugar—railway bus transport is introduced which turns off the road and goes to the farms. It happened in the case of the Makadas line at Ladysmith that we did not rebuild after the floods. The farmers now admit that they are getting a better service than before. Therefore we shall not cause disruption.

The hon member for East London asked for a Springbok Room at the East London airport. This is a problem in East London. We do not have these rooms at all our airports. Unfortunately in the case of East London there is no place to establish such a room. The hon member said that we could use the existing VIP room. I shall inform the hon member personally what our problem is with that airport building. If the airport building is too small then we shall bring the matter up with the Department of Community Development and it will be attended to.

†The hon member for Amanzimtoti referred to Transmed and delayed payments. I would like him to give me the address of the person who wrote to him five times so that I can investigate this matter. Our aim is to pay the account within 30 days. The hon member for Parktown realizes our problem. However, we like to pay the account within 30 days.

*The hon member for False Bay takes an interest in his constituency. He has discussed various matters with me in private. He has now also discussed a railway line from Cape Town to Khayelitsha via Nyanga or Bellville. I replied to the hon member for Houghton in this regard too. We expect the report of the team investigating this matter before the end of June. He also requested that the sports fields for the staff accommodation at Mitchell’s Plain also be made available to scholars. The sports fields were built to meet the needs of a thousand inhabitants, and where there is under-utilization or inadequate utilization we shall consider on merit any application for their use.

The hon member also requested that space be made available for advertisement purposes on passenger trains and on goods wagons. We are giving attention to this matter since it represents an extra source of income. If one is travelling by train and reads “Drink Nuy wine” on the side of a railway wagon, then that is the best form of advertisement. The hon member has business contacts and he can approach us and make proposals to us about advertisements we can place on wagons to earn extra revenue. The scheme is ready for implementation.

†The hon member for Johannesburg North referred to group tours and said that these tours were only for internal visitors. It is also for overseas groups, and they can get the same discounts as internal people. I can give the hon member the assurance that if overseas groups ask for a discount as we have for internal tours, it will be arranged.

*The hon member for Wellington told us the history of the Wellington station. The SATS will look after that station. But the Whips are hurrying me on and I still wanted to say something about Wellington Station.

The hon member for Standerton is an exceptional person. He has an exceptional way of speaking and he has an exceptional constituency, a constituency in which I am an exceptional predecessor of the hon member. The hon member spoke about the train to Vrede which had changed from steam to diesel, as a result of which the veld of the farmer to whom he referred was no longer being burnt down. I am so pleased that he was able to say yesterday that that farmer has been converted from “Sap” to “Nat” and is going to give our party a big contribution.

The hon member also requested inspectors of the SATS to see to it that standards were being maintained. All dwelling-houses and buildings built for the SATS by private contractors, are built under the strict supervision of the inspectors who see to it that the required standards are maintained. We are also giving attention to the question of retirement due to illness. I can give the hon member the assurance that if one takes out an insurance policy through the SATS, one will be inclined to make a plan to retire early. That is one of our difficulties. If a man has obtained a loan, he can obtain private cover. In any event I shall inform the hon member fully in this regard.

The hon member for Greytown referred to various cost concepts with regard to uneconomic branch lines. I have already referred to uneconomic branch lines. He also asked for a definition of the cost system. The SATS applies a recognized accounting and cost system according to theory and practice. Definitions of the system are reflected in notes included in the financial statements. Financial policy is broadly outlined in the annual report of the General Manager. This is by way of reply to the question put to me by the hon member.

The hon member for Germiston asked for better police protection at President Station. Only one case of crime at this station against the travelling public has been reported. We are attending to this matter. The hon member also spoke about crowding in the central area of Germiston and at the suburban stations of Simmerpan and India Junction. At present various practical problems are being experienced. We are considering rescheduling the trains if practicable, as the hon member requested.

The hon member requested that we consider the possibility of demolishing houses on the premises of the railway club at Germiston. We have a housing problem at present and those houses are still habitable, even though they do not look attractive. It is very difficult to demolish a house at this stage, when in the meantime someone does still have a roof over his head. In today’s economic circumstances it would only attract criticism if we were to begin demolishing houses when we are able to help people by giving them a roof over their heads. However, we shall come back to the hon member in regard to this matter.

The hon member for Nigel asked that the grading of control stations be investigated. It is the normal practice to consider post grades on an ongoing basis in accordance with work volume and complexity. It is our policy to do this. The hon member also got in a political blow, something I certainly do not wish to react to at this point.

The hon member for Gordonia also asked questions about Sishen. I can tell him that we cannot load a bale of wool, but if there are representations for wagonloads we shall be only too pleased to do extra business. I have already replied to his questions on the Sishen-Saldanha line. I can also tell him that in the proposal for a direct link between Sishen and the PWV area, provision has been made for a junction between the South West main line and the Sishen-Saldanha railway line at Kleinbegin. These are matters that I shall discuss further with the hon member.

†The hon member for Walmer was the owner of Savage & Lovemore.

*As a businessman he is bright; as a politician, however, he is not.

†The hon member requested information on various personnel matters. The total current White staff complement is 111 000. The total permanent staff is 189 000. The total nuber of permanent White staff members is 110 000. The number of White staff reduced is 10 000. As regards the comparison between the staff budgets for 1983-84 and 1984-85, I can tell him that the figure in the original estimate for 1983-84 was 256 000 and that the figure in the estimate for 1984-85 amounts to 242 000. The latest estimated average for 1983-84 is 245 000.

He also inquired how the market share is calculated. The market share is based on tonnage; the figures are supplied by the Central Statistic Service. The hon member also wanted to know why SATS should have a certain share of the market. In the interest of the country SATS is obliged to operate as common carrier and it renders socio-economic services. With a view to balancing its books, it is entitled to its fair share of the total transport market. We must have a fair share. We have a free enterprise situation and we will fight for our share.

The hon member also wanted to know what SATS would do with its surplus funds if it is fully compensated for socio-economic services. If we are fully compensated and we show a profit cross-subsidization would be minimized and freight rates will become more cost orientated and competitive. We will decrease prices and we will get people back from road to rail. That is the only solution, if we are fully compensated for the socio-economic non-profitable tariffs.

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon the Minister a question?

Sir, my Whip tells me my time has expired.

Mr Chairman, I should like to mention two matters of a purely local nature. The first one is connected with the railway line from Northam via Middelwit to Schoongezicht. The line has already been completed up to Middelwit, and if my information is correct, it is under construction from Middelwit to Schoongezicht. A part of it runs though Bophuthatswana. It is being extended mainly with a view to the transportation of Portland cement. The community around Dwaalboom sees something of a carrot in the extension of that line up to Schoongezicht. They say that the most difficult terrain has already been covered by the extension of the line up to Schoongezicht. From there, it is only a further 8 km and the surface is level. They believe that it could be very easy to extend the line a little further to Dwaalboom. Secondly, the need exists. It has already been identified. Thirdly, the co-operative has already been established at Dwaalboom, so it is not just a matter of a few private houses standing there in isolation. The question is whether the hon the Minister would not be prepared to consider this matter in the near future.

The second point is in connection with the line between Nylstroom and Vaalwater, especially the part between Nylstroom and Alma. The hon the Minister is aware of this. He has already received representations in this connection and to some extent he has reacted to them. Part of his reaction was during the by-election last year, when he paid a friendly visit to the constituency. I am not reproaching him, but the few words he said were rather inconclusive. The people of that community are looking forward to having the hon the Minister visit that vicinity again, this time perhaps in my company. [Interjections.] It will not do him any harm. We shall only discuss transport affairs. I should like to know from the hon the Minister, especially with regard to the carrying capacity of that section, between Alma and Nystroom in particular, whether we can expect good news from him.

I hope, Sir, that I have spoken for less than three minutes.

Mr Chairman, I should very much like to say a few words about the narrow-gauge line between Hume-wood Road and Avontuur. It is quite an unusual line in certain respects, with its rail gauge of 24 inches, or in modem language, 610 millimetres. For many years, this was virtually the only means of transporting anything which entered and left this area. I remember very well how unruly cattle caused this train to overturn as a result of their violent movements. I wonder whether the management is aware of the notorious train driver who often overturned the train when going round sharp bends. If they are not, I can inform them. I also remember how a circus elephant once caused this train to overturn, and I remember how for many years, this was our only link with the Cape railway line from Port Elizabeth to Cape Town when we had to go to the university or college. But alas, just as the SATS has experienced a country-wide decrease in goods and passenger traffic, the introduction of an improved road network and the increasing prosperity of the inhabitants in this area also caused them to turn more and more to road transportation, with a resultant decrease in the rail traffic on this line from 540 000 tons in 1980-81 to 527 000 tons in 1981-82 and 506 000 tons in 1982-83. This clearly shows a declining tendency.

However, the importance of this line to this area must never be underestimated, and it must not be allowed to fall into disuse as a result of lack of interest. I like the Management’s approach of doing the big things while not omitting the small ones. That is why we welcome the steps that are being taken by the Management specifically in order to prevent the draining away of traffic from this section. In this way, for example, attempts to convey the deciduous fruit of the Langkloof to Cape Town by road have recently been frustrated. Incidentally, this traffic represents 4% of the goods transported. Capital investment in improvements, such as fruit shelters, fork lifts and new wagons, has been used as an attraction to prevent this traffic from being drained away from the Railways.

Furthermore, I find it interesting to note that wood and transmission poles are increasingly being transported by train instead of by bus. However, it always upsets me when I see a SATS freight bus travelling to Port Elizabeth parallel with the train, and vice versa. I concede that certain goods, as well as passengers, have to be conveyed by road in the case of this section, but it would appear to me that in some cases, the SATS accedes too readily to the requests to allow road instead of rail transport, because rail transport is declining and road transport is gradually increasing.

I want to come back to more positive matters. The Humansdorp co-operative is switching over at the moment to bulk handling of their grain, and we are grateful to the management for having arranged to have the grain transported in bulk wagons instead of buses used for this purpose. Compressed air pumps will be used to pump over the grain from the narrow-gauge wagons to the widegauge wagons. At the same time, this will enable the Avontuur co-operative to give serious consideration to the bulk handling of their grain production.

Finally, I should like to say something about the tourist attraction provided by this little train, and not to be outdone by the hon the Prime Minister’s Tootsie, I should like to call my little train “Fruitsie”. Today, this train travels twice a week during the Christmas holiday between Humewood Road and Loerie Station, a distance of 70 km, and it is very likely that as a result of greater interest, as in the case of Tootsie, the number of trips will be increased to four per week during the 1984-85 Christmas season. However, there are no plans for extending this trip any further, since the train has to be back in Port Elizabeth before dark because of a lack of sleeping and dining facilities. I want to ask the hon the Minister, firstly, to ensure that the attraction of the steam locomotive of the Apple Express is not removed.

In the second place, this trip could be made much more attractive by equipping the train with proper dining and sleeping facilities. I want to put it to the hon the Minister that we not only want to travel on that train; we also want to eat and sleep on it. Then longer excursions could even be arranged, for example, to Jeffrey’s Bay, a distance of about 100 km; to Humansdorp, a distance of about 110 km; and to the end of the section at Avontuur, a distance of 282 km.

If there could be some positive co-operation between the hon the Prime Minister and myself so that we could have the railway line built across the mountain, we could achieve a very good marriage in this respect, perhaps. In this way, it could even become a very popular holiday trip of a few days for hundreds of tourists. After all, where else can one travel through such picturesque scenery on a train which—unlike the hon the Minister’s other high-speed trains—crawls through the mountain passes at a snail’s pace, at a speed which even enables one to get off and walk alongside the train? The train could even stop at a pool so that the passengers could have a swim in the cool water. Perhaps they could even be given an opportunity to lean from a train window and pick an apple from a tree growing next to the line. This kind of trip is truly a wonderful prospect to those who want to get away from the hustle and bustle of the cities.

I really believe that Dr Grové and his management team could give serious consideration to the recreational possibilities of this little train.

Finally, I just want to point out to the hon the Minister that we have been told by the SATS that the renovation of the Port Elizabeth railway station is receiving priority at the moment. I can only request that the work on that station should proceed more rapidly, because in its present state it is certainly not an advertisement for the SATS.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Humansdorp has made a somewhat nostalgic speech here today. I have enjoyed it and I compliment him on it.

The hon the Minister of Transport Affairs has given us another reason today for his being the Minister in charge of this portfolio. In addressing the hon member for Houghton he let the cat out of the bag. He has the figure for that job! I can just see that slim and trim figure of the hon the Minister “Sashaying” down the aisle of some SA Airways Boeing waiting on the passengers. That service is exactly what I want to talk about this afternoon.

I want to talk about the SA Airways and about its passengers. SA Airways, I agree, is the best. There is no getting away from that. It has just turned 50 years of age. We have heard the story; we have read about it in the media; we have listened to it over the radio; we have seen it on television. Moreover we have heard this story told and retold during this debate over the past few days.

I believe that what we have to look at too is the foundation of the story that will be told after the next 50 years. I think that this is terribly important. I want to ask the hon the Minister whether he does not want to be remembered one day just as Maj Miller has been remembered with affection for his tremendous achievement in founding Union Airways? Does the hon the Minister not want to hear generations to come talk about the wonderful works of Hendrik Schoeman? Would he not like to be known as the man who always managed to balance the books of SA Airways? I believe that would be a wonderful achievement. I want to know from the hon the Minister whether he would not like to balance the books. Would he not just for once like to balance the books? I think he agrees that he does want to accomplish that.

I want to talk about the balancing of the books because I believe that if we look at the SA Airways in isolation it is clear that the hon the Minister could, by doing some simple things, balance the books. He is budgeting for a deficit this coming year of R3,5 million. That is all. But for R3,5 million SA Airways could break square in the coming year. Now how can he find that R3,5 million? He could find that very easily. I believe he will probably be interested in knowing how it could be done.

Arising out of a series of questions I asked in the House last year pertaining to domestic and international air traffic, we were given to understand that Jan Smuts Airport handles throught the domestic concourse something like 1 311 500 passengers each year. Louis Botha in Durban handles 638 500 passengers per annum. These figures are for the year 1982, but I have no reason to believe that these figures have changed materially because I do not think that there has been any tremendous upswing or downswing in the number of people taking SAA’s domestic flights. As far as D F Malan Airport at Cape Town is concerned, the figure is 725 000 domestic passengers. Incidentally, I have rounded off all these figures to the nearest 500. This means to say that through the three major airports in South Africa there passed some 2 675 000 souls travelling domestically from somewhere in South Africa to somewhere else in South Africa. I have not included the Hendrik Verwoerd, Ben Schoeman or J B M Hertzog Airport in these figures. However, if one adds the figures for these three airports, they amount in total to about 547 000. This gives us, to the nearest 100, passenger traffic through all of our South African airports in respect of domestic traffic of 3 222 000 passengers per annum or 8 800 people a day. This is quite a remarkable figure.

I should like to ask the hon the Minister whether it would be fair to say that one in every eight of these people will take a drink when he flies.

Possibly.

That is possible. I feel it is being very conservative indeed to say that one in eight has a drink. Let us be a little more conservative and say that only one in every nine has a drink. Imagine that, Sir! Three sets of three seats and only one passenger has a drink! That would give us a figure of 1 000 people a day having a drink on SAA. That is the crux of the matter. That person is having a drink on SAA, and I use the word “on” to show who is paying for that drink. I know that this argument has raged back and forth across this Debating Chamber but I ask again: Is it unreasonable to charge a man for a drink? I know the hon the Minister will probably say that there will be problems in regard to having to carry change and that this or that has to be done, but let us cut all of that nonsense out.

Let us assume that we have a small bottle of spirituous liquor, whatever it may be, brandy, gin, whisky or something else. I believe that R1 should be charged for it. I believe that a small carafe of wine could carry a charge of R1,50 and any soft drink could cost 50c. This will eliminate any problem that might arise in regard to change. It makes things very simple indeed. If a man drinks spirits, he pays R1, if he want wine it will cost him R1,50 and if he wants a soft drink it will cost him 50c. If 1 000 people a day buy one drink over 365 days, the hon the Minister will get back R3 650 000.

But how much does it cost you to buy the stuff?

We are providing it for nothing. Where is your intelligence?

In any event, the figure is R365 000 not R3 650 000. [Interjections.]

I am sorry, you are quite right. [Interjections.] However, if we average this amount out we will be able to effect a very great saving indeed in respect of the amount we are presently spending on handing out this largesse to the passengers on SAA.

I should like to elaborate a little further in this regard and I say this in all humility and sincerity. Why should we be providing anything free on SAA? If the SAA charge for the tea and the snacks which they serve, they will recover the amount of R3,5 million the hon the Minister is looking for. That is to say if the hon the Minister should add to the R365 000 I have spoken of the amount collected from the person who has a second drink, the person who has the carafe of wine, the person who has a cup of tea and the person who has a plate of snacks, he would nearly recover his deficit. I believe that if one travels on plane in Europe, one has to pay for snacks. A snack trolley comes around and one has to pay. In Germany one has to pay even R2 for a bottle of mineral water which is nothing more than carbonated water.

I hope that what I am saying, does not fall on deaf ears. I have highlighted just one aspect. I am sorry that I had to take liquor as an example. One must add to it the other services which are provided. I agree wholeheartedly that these services should be provided, but I do sincerely believe that they should not be provided for nothing. I honestly do not believe that this is correct. It is not necessarily done internationally. If one travels on China Airlines, for argument’s sake, one is given a soft drink, and that is all—no more and no less. One is given a soft drink in a little container with a straw, and that is as much as one gets out of it. Why do we have this elaborate service in our cabins free, gratis and for nothing? I believe the travelling public should pay for it.

I just want to follow on what the hon member for Houghton said earlier. I think we should have more ground hostesses in our terminals to assist passengers. There should not only be hostesses behind the counters, but there should also be hostesses on the floor, if I may call it that, of the terminals to assist and direct passengers. They should assist in order to keep groups together, in order to assist businessmen who travel with one piece of hand luggage.! Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I do not intend either agreeing with the hon member for Umhlanga or joining issue with him, but I do want to commend to the hon the Minister the speech made by the hon member for Humansdorp. I must say that the most sensible thing that was said during this debate was said towards the end of the hon member’s speech when he asked about the station in Port Elizabeth. I must really commend him for making such a sensible speech.

Mr Chairman, I want to ask the hon member, since Delmas has now been given a new station, whether he could not ask the hon the Minister when Oudtshoorn will be getting a new station. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, during the course of this debate the hon the Minister, the Management and the staff of the SATS have been commended on the very good job of work performed during the past year. In my opinion this House would not have been fair if it had not done so. The performance during the past year has been exceptional indeed and it would not have been attained without special efforts by both the hon the Minister and the staff and Management of the SATS. I want to support those commendations and I do not intend saying anything further in this connection.

It is understandable that during a recession there would be superfluous staff. There is less to do and therefore fewer hands are necessary to do what should be done. Even big employers have to discharge staff during recessions. It is always a painful thing to do. The SATS managed to reduce staff on a substantial scale without having to discharge anybody. That is one thing everybody in this House is thankful for.

*Mr Chairman, this brings me to something else that has been said in the course of the debate, and that is that the SATS has exceptional merit as an employer. This is a statement which I endorse. We have only to look at the annual report for 1982-83 to confirm the statement that the SATS as an employer has exceptional merit. In this report we read that training facilities have been provided for the workers and we also read about housing subsidies which are made available to the workers of the SATS. In this connection, nothing would be more appropriate than for me to refer to the mottoes of the Department of Manpower concerning the rights of employees. One of the rights of employees is the right to training and retraining. When we look at the reports of the SATS, we see that this right of the employee receives full recognition. We notice, for example, that 1 000 senior officials received observer training during the 1982-83 financial year. Mention is also made of a longterm development programme which was introduced as far back as 1978 for certain administrative ranks. In terms of this, 1 215 senior officials have already been trained to undertake the appraisal of and feedback to staff under their control. Scientific selection of employees over a wide spectrum is carried out. Almost 9 000 employees have been trained at the training college at Esselen Park and its branches during the past year.

I must say I find it somewhat surprising that only 179 employees have obtained Baccalaureus degrees in terms of the bursary scheme for part-time study which was introduced as far back as 1964. To me this seems like a very small number. Perhaps I have misinterpreted the numbers in the report. But if I interpret them correctly, I should like to know from the hon the Minister why he thinks this scheme is not so popular. After all, the training and re-training of employees is the most important key we have in the employer/employee relationship, because it has a bearing on productivity. I also have here the annual report of the National Productivity Institute for the period 1982 to 1983. According to the figures in this report, labour productivity dropped by 0,7% in 1982, compared with a rise of 2,6% in 1981. The agricultural sector was not included in these calculations. Sir, I am sure that the employees of the SATS are not responsible for the decline, because they have actually succeeded in doing more work with a smaller staff. This report also indicates that between the years 1970 and 1982, productivity increased by 0,68% per year. Again, the agricultural sector is excluded from this figure. However, the figure is subdivided to determine the contribution made by every race group. The finding is that the Blacks and Coloureds have made a negative contribution, since their wages and salaries have increased more rapidly than the GDP. I have before me a list of salary increases granted since 1976. On every occasion, the increase for Coloureds, Indians and Blacks has been higher than in the case of the Whites. The point I want to make is that the productivity of those people is taken into consideration. Let me add, Sir, that I am not a racist.

Mr Chairman, I should like to say a few words about a disturbing article which appeared in Rapport on 26 February 1984 dealing with the Sishen/Saldanha railway line. The hon the Minister will realize that my interest in the Sishen/Saldanha railway line has been stimulated by a study tour which a number of us attended earlier this year. First of all I would like to congratulate the hon the Minister and his department for the very excellent arrangements that were made for us on that particular tour. Apart from the sacrifices we made for “volk en vaderland”, it was very instructive, and in that sense it was worthwhile. The heading of this article reads: “Sishen sal R240 miljoen gou verloor”. It is a report about the decline and financial viability of Sishen as such, but it keeps on linking it to the SATS. It says that in terms of the formula the Railways may also be involved in this loss, which is snowballing and is put at R240 million, and which could amount to R73 million this year. It also states that the hon the Minister’s colleague the hon the Minister of Industries, Commerce and Tourism has appointed Mr John Maree of Barlows to head an inquiry into the viability or the practicability of this exercise. We would like to know from the hon the Minister in what way the SATS is affected by the decline in the exports through Saldanha Bay Harbour. Is the Maree Committee also investigating the Railways aspect of this project? Was the hon the Minister consulted? Has he seen to it that the SATS have representatives on this committee? Does the hon the Minister have any positive input to make into the Maree Committee’s investigation as to what the SATS feel could be done to make this line, which is having a decline in fortune at the moment, a more viable and more profitable one in future? It is disturbing, because what we see is a standard of technical excellence and of professional efficiency by the staff. However, the line is carrying less tonnage and the whole project is on the decline. I would ask the hon the Minister to elaborate on the fortune of that particular railway line.

I want to come back to an issue I raised last year and the year before, namely the effective use of Railway property as real estate. Last year I raised the question of having multistorey shopping centres at railway stations. The hon the Minister then very kindly said that “the hon member for Sea Point does not always advocate wrong things. This is a good suggestion he has made.” He has already come with a Bill and that is now possible. However, I want to tackle the whole issue on a wider basis, especially in relation to Cape Town. The fact of the matter is that the Railways move into an area and that around the Railways the city develops. The Railways very often occupy prime sites in the centres of our cities, prime sites not only from a commercial point of view, but in respect of the influence and the impact they have on the whole urban design of a city and the way the people of that city live. One can take Johannesburg, Port Elizabeth, Durban and in particular Cape Town as examples of this. I put it to the hon the Minister that in Cape Town the siting of the Railway complex, combined with the harbour, is perhaps the most sensitive pieces of real estate when seen from the point of view of a city hemmed in between the sea and the mountain. Therefore the hon the Minister has an obligation to Cape Town which goes far beyond the functioning of the Railway services or the Harbour services. What happens to the real estate of the Railways affects in a very critical way what happens to the whole town-planning of the Mother City. I am afraid that in the main the Harbours and the Railways have been designed as efficient harbours and railways, with not sufficient integration into the town plan of the city. What has happened is that Cape Town is no longer the gateway to Africa. This is not the hon the Minister’s fault. It is the Jumbo jet that caused that. Nevertheless, there has been this fundamental change. Secondly, Cape Town is no longer the Tavern of the Seas. Today that is only the name of a column in The Argus. If one looks at what happened with the Railways and the Harbours, one will see that Cape Town is no longer a seaside city. There is this big block of harbour property which isolates Cape Town from the sea. I believe that the hon the Minister, from a longer term point of view, and if he wants to go down in history as a man who has done something really worthwhile for the Mother City of South Africa, should at this stage in co-operation with the city and other people conduct an in-depth and comprehensive town-planning investigation of the integration of the railway and the harbour area with the city, and in particular make a projection of what is likely to happen in future. One has one piece of land used for one purpose, and a million or so people using other land for other purposes, and it is very seldom that these two meet. There should in particular be a special effort on the part of the hon the Minister to try to bring the sea back to Cape Town or to try to bring Cape Town back to the sea. The proximity is there, but there is a functional barrier in the form of a harbour and the railways.

I should like to identify certain important areas. There is the Granger Bay area. We would like an updated report on this. This is a new development on the far side of the old harbour. While in itself it has some merit, although it is very expensive, it does not deal with the town-planning aspect of the Cape Town Mother City as a whole. There are other areas to which I think the hon the Minister should apply his mind. What is the future of, for instance, Victoria Basin? He can say that it is still integrated with part of the fishing industry, but it is not a long-term viable fishing harbour for the Cape. The hon the Minister should start thinking how he can introduce private entrepreneurs under present legislation in and around Victoria Basin. I am sure that the hon the Minister has travelled to Pier 39 in San Francisco, Boston and Baltimore and has seen what has happened there where private enterprise was brought into old harbour areas. One finds the most fascinating interplay of economic and commercial interactivity and old nostalgic harbours with fishing activity. Even under present legislation attention should be given to what is going to happen and how Victoria basin—which I think is a most fascinating piece of real estate—can be made more relevant to the needs of the people.

Another area to which I want to refer is the tank farm. I do not think that the hon the Minister can tolerate for very much longer a massive set of petrol tanks close to the heart of a residential area. There is peace and quiet now, but I do not think it is viable to have that tank farm right up against the Main Road of Green Point and right opposite those towering blocks of flats. He will have to move them in due course, and once that is done, he has that whole basin which if filled with water could change the whole character of that area. Another area is just outside the tank farm in the vicinity of Port Road where there are all sorts of warehouses. I realize that they are being used. However, is this the best place for these particular warehouses? Would it not be better as an area of high development in Cape Town with the warehouses pushed right out to Paarden Island and beyond? This is a critically important area and its development should be investigated.

Finally, I want to come to the cherry on top. I believe that we should have a look at the Cape Town railway station. If one looks at a map of Cape Town, you see that the railway station has actually destroyed Adderley Street as a shopping precinct. If you walk down on the right-hand side and you reach Strand Street, it is “so dood soos ’n mossie”. What is more, it is windy. We have a garden there which nobody uses and at which only a few people look. All one sees is “keep off the grass”. It is a dead area of Cape Town. I want to suggest to the hon the Minister that now that he can bring commercial property onto Railway premises, he should get hold of the best townplanner in the private sector and members of his, to see if something cannot be done about this complex. I have my own views. One can build a six-storey building where the long concourse is, thereby shielding the garden from the wind. Nowhere else in the world will you find a double-storey building in the centre of a main city. You can block that garden off and build wings on either side and where the present garden is you can have the most fantastic garden piazza. You can have gardens, fountains, stalls and street-side cafes because you will have a wind-free area facing due north and trapping the sun. While demolition of the old railway station created the Golden Acre site—that was a plus for Cape Town—the present Cape Town railway station has effectively destroyed the link between the old and the new part of the city. I believe that with a little imaginative replanning, the railway station site, linked with the parking deck on the one side and with Adderley Street on the front, closing it off with its back to the wind, could be one of the most exciting living areas in Cape Town, instead of having an attractive bit of lawn which is wind-swept and used by nobody.

I have tried to identify sensitive areas within the Cape Town complex and I urge the hon the Minister, as his contribution to the history of the Mother City, to start right now on a comprehensive townplanning reorganization of the harbour and railway areas so that it becomes re-integrated with the Mother City and that these areas can be plus factors rather than minus factors in terms of the usage of our Mother City.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Sea Point had a lot to say about Cape Town. However, I do not know whether he took into account or bore in mind that the intention is for Cape Town to be the capital city of the Coloured homeland if the Conservative Party comes into power.

In recent years tourism from South Africa to overseas countries has increased tremendously. In recent years it has become the fashion to visit the Far East in particular, and visits to India, Sri Lanka, Thailand, Hong kong, Taipei in Taiwan and Tokyo in Japan have become extremely popular. Every year thousands of South Africans travel to these countries and cities. However, our tourists have the problem that we only have a flight to Hong Kong and another to Taipei in Taiwan and from there other arrangements have to be made to get to the other countries and cities people would like to visit. This may be wishful thinking, because everything is certainly not possible at the moment, but just think, Sir, how ideal it would be if we could fly from Jan Smuts to Colombo in Sri Lanka or to Bombay in India and from there to Bangkok, Hong Kong, Taipei and Tokyo and had landing rights in all these different cities and the SAA flew to all these places. I think that this would not only be very convenient for tourists from South Africa, but particularly in view of the increasing popularity of tours to that part of the world this could also be of considerable financial benefit to the SAA.

Mr “Voordeur” (Gateway) … [Interjections.] Sir, the hon member for Sea Point placed so much emphasis on the “voordeur” (gateway) to Africa that he completely confused me. This would also be the gateway to the homeland. Mr Chairman, I should also like to discuss a matter which is not really causing dissatisfaction among our railway staff and particularly the locomotive staff but which is causing a certain amount of jealousy. The Airways staff stay in very smart hotels with a great many stars when they have to spend the night in various countries and cities. Now our railway staff in the interior also have to spend the night at various places, although these are not always grand cities. However, they are not allocated such smart overnight accommodation as the Airways staff. They are a little jealous about this, although they realize that that kind of accommodation is not available to them. I do feel it is necessary to consider the conditions and accommodation in which our railway staff have to spend the night.

Mr Chairman, I should like to draw the attention of the hon the Minister to the report of the SATS Board and express my appreciation for the work being done by the members of this board. I think it is fit and proper that, in the latter part of their lives, politicians or former politicians are able to fill specific posts in certain organizations in our country’s administration. Political life gives one expertise, experience, insight and intuition which one cannot gain anywhere else in society. Not all former politicians or former members of this House need necessarily be “has beens” or live on charity. I feel that members of the SATS Board who formerly were members of Parliament, did extremely good work there.

Where are you going?

I want to give the hon member the assurance that if God spares me and gives me good health, I shall remain here for many years to come and shall still see the NP disappear from the political scene. [Interjections.] I want to tell the hon the Minister that I have a very soft spot for him. I feel he need not necessarily be a “has been” when he retires from politics one day.

I want to draw the attention of the hon the Minister to page 29 of the report, the chapter dealing with staff matters. Reference is made to both staff position and ethnic grouping. I am quoting the paragraph which deals with ethnic grouping:

This closer analysis is not only interesting but also scientifically correct. It can only make a positive contribution, not only in the interests of a specific individual from a specific population group, but also to understand the particular individual in his life and endeavours as a person who is linked to a specific ethnic group. This can also assist in dealing with any problems which Black employees of the SATS may experience. I do not think it is in any way discriminatory, to either the individual or the employer, to identify the employee as an individual or to indicate to what specific population group he belongs.

A second aspect I should like to bring to the attention of the hon the Minister again, is the question of the safety of employees and property of the SATS, of passengers being conveyed and of persons residing near property, for example stations, belonging to the SATS. During the past few years I have pointed out to both the hon the Minister and his predecessors that dangerous situations may arise involving individuals at or near stations. The hon the Minister gave attention to this and exchanged correspondence with me in this connection. I want to thank him most sincerely for this. It is essential for staff of the SATS to give attention to the safety and neatness of their property, not only at stations in my own constituency, but at stations throughout the country. The hon the Minister lives in the Rissik constituency for part of the year. If he drives past Rissik station he will notice that there is a great deal of room for improvement as regards the premises around the station and the nearby bridges across the roads. It has already happened that thieves have sought shelter there. I feel we should give attention to this matter.

In many respects the world is not getting to be an easier or safer place for us to live in. One cannot expect to eliminate all kinds of irritation, such as vagrants and people who molest others, by means of legislation. Nor do I think it is solely the duty of a Minister or his department or even the police to shoulder all the responsibility. We should rather teach our children from an early age and we should also ask the public to help us in cases where congestion occurs. It goes without saying that as the population grows there will be greater congestion in certain places, and then every individual who is part of that crowd should also make a contribution towards the proper handling of that situation.

In the third place I want to draw the attention of the hon the Minister to Pretoria station. Earlier on the hon member for Sea Point made an interesting speech about Cape Town and its environs. Although Pretoria station looks neat and the staff try to keep it neat, I still believe that the paintwork, for example, should receive attention. The staff of the hon the Minister should go and look for themselves. Many of our stations, and Pretoria station in particular, were built in an era when South African society was very different from what it is now. I can understand the problem which the Government is experiencing with a diversity of nations and peoples, particularly Whites and Blacks. I can also understand that problems may arise wherever Whites and Blacks congregate, but as far as Pretoria station in particular is concerned the hon the Minister will have to be extremely careful about not simply opening all public places to all races and removing all the signs indicating separation between the races. Particularly in the international climate in which we live, I can understand the problem the Government has to extent with. When a Black man is forced to leave a train, a great fuss is made about it, but the outside world does not take cognizance of the fact that millions of people are being conveyed every day without incident. In this regard I can understand the hon the Minister’s problem, but I still believe that we have to ensure that we do not simply remove the dividing signs without taking into consideration the consequences which could be worse than when the dividing measures applied. I believe that Pretoria Station, in particular, requires the attention of the hon the Minister in this regard.

The hon the Prime Minister is in the House at the moment, and I should like to say a final word in connection with the debate yesterday, with reference to a speech the hon the Prime Minister made in the Cape last year on the Day of the Vow. On that occasion he referred to the matter of the Afrikaner cultural movements, and I must admit that it was rather difficult to decide what the hon the Prime Minister meant by the so-called opening of doors to other minority groups who longed to know more about the Afrikaner, his language and culture. I have no difficulty with a person wanting to know more about the culture and way of life of the other peoples with whom he resides in a specific geographic area. In the discussion on this, the hon member for Kuruman specifically asked about cultural organizations such as the ATKV, and whether these organizations would also allow Coloureds, Indians and people who are supposedly so close to the Afrikaner culture, to become members. The hon member for Hercules then replied and said, after the hon the Minister of Internal Affairs had reprimanded him, that as far as he was concerned if the Management said that membership of those Afrikaner cultural organizations should be open to all, he would have no problem with that in principle. Now I want to tell the hon the Minister that in our amendment we specifically asked that attention be given to the Whites, because this is where we differ in our politics. We disagree on the direction in which the Government is moving. As a political party which has unashamedly adopted a standpoint in favour of the survival, not only of the Afrikaner, but of the White man, and which also recognizes the rights of other groups, we want to state emphatically that we are concerned about the direction in which the Government wants to move with Afrikaner cultural organizations.

The hon member for Mossel Bay is after all the chairman of the Rapportryers. I should like to know from him whether the Government is going to encourage people to open the membership of Afrikaner cultural organizations so that people of colour may also become members. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, unfortunately I only have enough time to put two short questions to the hon the Minister. However, I want to put it to the hon member for Rissik that if he had resumed his seat at the right time he would have made a relatively good speech. Unfortunately he carried on for just a little too long, with the result that once again he went astray. [Interjections.]

I should like to give the hon the Minister the assurance that we have great appreciation for all the concessions and all the discount fares which have been announced, as well as the concessions which already exist. I advocate that these concessions should be advertised effectively and thoroughly in order to ensure that they are brought to the attention of the public. After all, the main objective is to fill the empty seats. If these concessions are thoroughly advertised so that everyone can take cognizance of them, those seats will be filled.

In the second place every year the SA Airways and Satour succeeds in bringing hundreds of opinion-formers, journalists and tourists to South Africa, something which of course earns us quite a bit in foreign exchange; as much as R214 million a year. The SAA has 68 foreign offices staffed by 725 employees, of whom quite a number are South African citizens. Today I should like to know from the hon the Minister what the policy is in connection with South African citizens working for us abroad. What worries me is that if those people remain abroad for too long, they may lose contact with South Africa. Their children grow up there in foreign circumstances. I want to ask that if this is the case, our staff should be brought back to South Africa after three or four years at the utmost, so that they can adapt more easily when they return to their fatherland. In conclusion I should like to refer for a moment to the hon member for Bezuidenhout, who saw fit yesterday to read out a gossip-mongering letter in this House in which someone made certain complaints about the SA Airways. I definitely take it amiss that the hon member used this debate to present the SA Airways in a poor light. [Interjections.] After all, there are other channels available to bring complaints to the attention of the Management or the hon the Minister. It is the duty of hon members to bring abuses to the attention of Management. There are also proper ways in which action can be taken against such people.

What I actually want to say—and this is what is of importance—is that it is the policy of the SA Airways to give every passenger on every flight, both domestic and international, the very best treatment. That is the policy of the SA Airways. If anyone transgresses, he can be reported. Then the matter will be thoroughly investigated and if necessary suitable steps will also be taken.

Does the hon member for Bezuidenhout realize that during the past year the SA Airways conveyed 3 134 535 domestic passengers and 712 725 overseas passengers? That is a total of 3,8 million passengers. Does the hon member realize that 56 000 meals are provided by the flight kitchen at Jan Smuts Airport every week. This means that on a Friday about 8 000 meals are prepared and served. The SA Airways has 1 500 cabin crew members who have to serve these meals, and they cover as much as 18 kilometres on foot doing so. I made inquiries and it appears that on average the SAA receives six complaints a week in connection with food and service whereas they have to serve 56 000 meals. These meals are tastefully served to us while we are 10 miles above the ground and travelling at 800 kilometres per hour. I take it amiss that the hon member took this opportunity to present the SA Airways in a poor light.

Mr Chairman, there are a few remarks that I wish to make, so I shall not reply to what the hon member for Kempton Park has said.

†I promised last night, Sir, that I would touch on some highly political matters that are contained in these documents, and that is what I shall now proceed to do. It has been said that we in the PFP drag politics into this debate but when one talks about transport, housing and employment one must realize that they are by their very nature political, and anyone who reads these documents and fails to see the severe political consequences contained in them must be living in a fool’s paradise.

The first example I wish to use to illustrate this is the whole question of tariffs and tariff increases. I have prepared a table in this regard, a copy of which I have given to the hon the Minister, to show that in the documents of the department some figures are hidden. Although they are quite comprehensive one cannot glean from then what one is seeking. Hon members opposite including the hon member for De Kuilen and the hon member Dr Welgemoed have tried in vain to convince us that it is in fact appropriate that third class fares should be increased by a larger percentage than first and second class fares.

I think that there are two great myths in regard to the passenger services of the SATS. The first of these is that the so-called socio-economic services are directed at Blacks, and the second is that the biggest losses are incurred by Black passenger services. These myths moved the hon member Dr Welgemoed to declare that third class fares had to be increased by 12,7% because they bear only 29% of costs. However, what of the other services? In April 1983 first class long distance travel covered only 13% of costs and the cumulative increase since January 1983 was only 18,2%. Second class covered 21% and the cumulative increase was 29,5%. However, when we look at third class long distance travel, we find that it had already covered 49% of costs at that time and the cumulative increase in January 1983, August 1983 and April of this year will amount to 48,6%.

The same thing holds good in relation to suburban passenger services. First class covered only 16% of costs with an increase of 26% while third class had by then covered 24% of costs with a 37% cumulative increase. Is the hon member Dr Welgemoed surprised, therefore, that the UDF wishes to make politics out of this matter? I certainly am not surprised. Is he also surprised at the growth of the Combi industry? I certainly am not. It is only the spirit of free enterprise that has moved the Black people to help themselves because they get a damn raw deal from this Government.

Order! The hon member must withdraw the word “damn”.

I withdraw it, Sir. As I say, it is only the spirit of free enterprise that has moved these people to help themselves. This is a Government that pays lip service to free enterprise when Blacks want a share of it yet it applies selective socialism to those people who have the vote.

Hon members may say, as some did indeed say yesterday: Do not talk percentages, talk real figures. If we do that, Sir, the figures become even more staggering. Whenever a White first class passenger embarks on a long distance journey, that journey is subsidized to the tune of R79,45 on average per journey. A second-class passenger is subsidized by R68 per journey, but a third-class passenger by only R3,02 per journey. On suburban rails, every time a White man gets on to a suburban first-class train, his trip is sponsored to the tune of R1,78 but on third class the subsidy is only 39 cents per trip. Finally, let us look at the total loss. On the White service the total loss to the SATS is R410 million, but on the Black service only R391 million yet Whites only undertake 115 million journeys and Blacks 606 million journeys. Who is getting the so-called benefit? The Blacks? Not likely.

The second aspect which is of a highly political nature is housing. Again I have prepared a table that gives some food for thought. In the scheme funded from the Capital Budget of SATS I find that last year 415 members of the staff who were transferred were awarded loans. The average loan was R88 423. Repayment at 4%, the rate which they are required to pay, comes to R5 602 per year. At a rate of 13% cost of Capital, it means that a person in the highest income bracket is subsidized to the tune of R6 366 per year. If one would be required to repay at a rate of 18% in the private sector—this is what the rate is at present—that same bond would have cost one R16 700 per year and if we apply the normal principle that one can only repay 25% of one’s salary, it means that such a person would have to earn R64 000 per year to afford such an unassisted loan. Figures for the other schemes are quite similar. We can see from the table that the average loan from other schemes—here I refer to new loans from the Capital Fund—amounts to R55 000. The total average for this year from the Capital Fund amounts to R64 000. When it comes to the home-ownership scheme aided by the Pension Fund, the loans average R56 000. What this really means is that the average SATS employee would have to earn the equivalent of approximately R45 000 in the private sector or if perks tax was to be applied to SATS workers to afford his own home.

This is the Government which says that its housing policy is one of self-help but only for the very poor because the Government will only assist the very poor. So the SATS is helping to fuel the dissatisfaction and the violence potential in a society which stems from inequality. Remember that the SATS worker who lives in Waterkloof and the man who gets a self-help loan at R1 800 from the Department of Co-operation and Development in Onverwacht or Umlazi both have sons. Within one generation both these chaps will enter the job market and both will have matric or better. Will the White boy then be able to afford the house of his dream, the one in which he lived with his parents in Waterkloof? Alternatively, will his Black colleagie be satisfied with the self-help wattle-and-daub house in Onverwacht? Surely not. I think the ideal is obviously somewhere in the middle, both in terms of salaries and in terms of housing. I think it is time that the SATS and other Government departments take a very, very careful look at their housing policies. The inequalities between the races in terms of housing I think is a major cause for alarm. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I must now reply to the hon member for Greytown, an hon member who says that “the SATS feeds the potential for violence”. These were extremely irresponsible statements and expressions which this hon member used. He mentioned a lot of figures, but where did he get them from?

They are in the book.

The hon member can juggle with the figures in that book just as he likes. The book is obviously too complicated for him, because he has got hold of the wrong figures altogether. He said, for example, that the total subsidy on the transport of White passengers was R410 million and that for people of colour R391 million. It is virtually impossible for me to reply to this kind of misrepresentation. His principal aim is to try to poison people’s minds. He says that we want to cause unrest and riots by means of the SATS. The hon member should have a talk with our Black staff association. However, he is never present when I sit around a table with Blacks, Coloureds and Indians. He should come and see the spirit in which we talk to one another.

You never show them the real figures.

Order! I ask the hon member for Greytown to give the hon the Minister an opportunity now to reply to his questions. He has already had an opportunity to make his speech.

Mr Chairman, I think I should rather ignore the hon member.

The hon member for Waterberg put a very reasonable request to me. He asked for a connecting line to Dwaalboom, but unfortunately I have a problem in this connection at the moment. It is not economically justified at present. But we can look into the matter again to see whether there may be enough freight. We often talk about closing uneconomic branch lines, but we shall not close that line. It is not one of the uneconomic branch lines, because it serves two grain silos, for example. We believe that when it starts raining again, there will be a revival in that area. The hon member put a reasonable request from his constituency. We have already investigated an increase in the carrying capacity of the line at Alma. The co-operative said that the SATS could use lighter wagons to serve the grain silos so that the line would not have to carry such heavy loads. However, I want to ask the hon member to give us an opportunity to investigate the whole matter again. Then I shall come back to him. He said that I should visit the area in his company. I visited the area for the first time when the hon member was still editor of Hoofstad. I went to hold meetings there with him at that time, and I had to go and sell him there. At that time I was Deputy Minister of Agriculture, and I enjoyed being able to do this. At that stage the hon member was still a white man; he was still a pal … [Interjections.]

The hon member for Humansdorp spoke about the expansion of facilities along the route of the Apple Express. The hon member does his best for his constituency and I just want to tell him that we shall go into the matter. He also talked about the better utilization of the tourist industry in that area and about the little narrow-gauge train. This is something which is unique. A great deal has been written about this Apple Express. We shall gladly give attention to the hon member’s request.

†The hon member for Umhlanga referred to the budget deficit of R3,5 million on the SA Airways and the possibility of making ends meet by charging for drinks. He suggested that we should ask passengers to pay R1 for a tot of spirits, 50c for a soft drink and R1,50 for a carafe of wine. However, we have the problem of the stewardesses having to negotiate the narrow passages on aircrafts with their trolleys and then perhaps being confronted by somebody wishing to pay for drinks with a R20 note. She has to check the money when the plane lands because the whole thing has to be controlled. Should we not rather in order to recover the R3,5 million loss for which we budgeted, increase the cost of the plane ticket by R1? In that way we will make up this loss.

Would it not be better to charge an airport tax?

Yes, we can do that if there is no growth. However, if we get a 2% growth in passengers we will show a profit. Last year we budgeted for a loss of R64 million; the loss is now down to R5 million. For the coming year we have now budgeted for a loss of only R3,5 million.

So you are going to make a profit next year.

Yes, we will make a profit next year.

I am not for free alcoholic drinks. We are criticized sometimes by people who say that we encourage people to drink.

[Inaudible.]

You are against tobacco, are you now against alcohol as well? Are you married? Alf, you are a spoilsport.

The hostess goes down the passage and offers the passengers apple juice, tomato juice, orange juice and any other drink they wish. More than 50% of people take soft drinks. However, we will pay attention to the hon member’s request to see if we can make a few “dollars”.

The hon member for Kimberley South said that we should put a penny slot machine on the toilet doors if we want to make money. Well, if one wants to make money, one should pick up every “dollar”. I am sympathetic towards the request of the hon member for Amanzimtoti and we will investigate it. It is possible that we will switch over and let passengers pay for their drinks again.

*The hon member for Port Elizabeth North asked for improvements to the station complex at Port Elizabeth. Stage 1 of the improvements will be completed in March 1985 and stage 2 in March 1986. He also referred to bursaries for administrative officials. We shall investigate the matter and I shall come back to the hon member on this problem.

The hon member for Sea Point made a very interesting speech. I must admit that.

†The hon member referred to the losses on the Sishen/Saldanha line. This is a guaranteed line and the losses must be paid for by Iscor. We are awaiting the conclusions of John Maree and his committee who is investigating this. There is an overproduction of steel at the moment and the producers of steel realize that motorcars are becoming smaller. Today one even finds a Mercedes Benz with a plastic grille. It is unbelievable to see such a beautiful car with a plastic grille. One does not find any steel bridges any more as people have diverted to concrete. However, I think that the steel industry will pick up again. In the meantime we will look into the problems with Sishen-Sal-danha line to see if we cannot perhaps use motor transport.

The hon member also talked about an obligation which we have to Cape Town.

*Sir, I should prefer to speak Afrikaans. Colin speaks Afrikaans just as well as I do.

The hon member said that the Cape Town station was the cherry on the top. This is one matter which I feel should be very carefully handled. Several structures have been erected around the Cape Town station, like the Golden Acre, the tunnel and Wool-worths, which are all connected with one another. At 07h15 in the mornings I see masses of people who emerge from the station to come and work in the city.

Like moles under the ground.

Yes, that is correct. The hon member now says that the planning of the city should be examined de novo. However, this is asking a lot in today’s economic circumstances. This is one of our most beautiful stations. Referring to the station garden, the hon member said all there was was “Keep off the grass”. However, this is one of the most beautiful gardens in Cape Town. It has aesthetic value. It does offer peace and quiet to a fellow who goes for a walk on a Sunday.

Do not touch that garden. Leave it as it is.

Okay, Chris. [Interjections.] I agree with the hon member for Sea Point that we could certainly make better use of Granger Bay.

†As regards Victoria Basin, the hon member said we should bring in private entrepreneurs to investigate that. It was a fishing harbour. He asked whether we cannot put it to better use. I also agree with what the hon member had to say about the tank farm. I stay in Sea Point. It is a wonderful place in which to stay. In any case, we can go into this. I think we can hold discussions with the planning committee of the city council of Cape Town and come back with proposals.

*The hon member is a man who has been very active in the building industry himself, so he has some knowledge of this. We shall therefore give attention to his proposals.

The hon member for Hercules said that the train staff were jealous of airways staff who live in five star hotels. We shall reconsider the compensation paid to railway staff who have to spend the night away from home. We shall examine this problem. I am glad the hon member has brought this to our attention.

The hon member for Kempton Park raised a very important matter, namely the staff who remain abroad for a long period. We agree that one cannot leave a can abroad for too long. The policy is that people should not be left abroad for longer than three years or, if this is impossible, five years. However, the lack of suitable staff still complicates the matter at times. Appointments will be made again shortly, and then this problem will receive specific attention. I have been told this by Dr Grové himself, and when he says that the matter is going to receive attention, then it will. I am glad the hon member raised this, because last year I came across a case of a man who had been abroad for seven years. He is becoming a stranger to his children and he can no longer speak proper Afrikaans. He is losing contact with his country, and that is wrong.

He is being contaminated.

Now I come to the hon member who has just made an interjection, the hon member for Bezuidenhout.

†He came here with a long story—the hon member for Kempton Park referred to it—about a People-to-People Golf Team from the United States. This letter is dated 21 November 1983. It was signed by a lot of the golf players and it was written in the Maharani Hotel in Durban.

I only received it last week.

Can it be? The hon member should fetch his mail more regularly. [Interjections.] But I take the hon member’s word for it that he only received this last week. However, he could have given me the letter in the lobby. It is not necessary to mention this here.

It is very important that the people overseas know …

Order!

Look what the hon member for Houghton did today: She praised our international services. But now this hon member comes with this letter. What has been done in the meantime? We replaced these Gold Class seats with more comfortable seats. These Americans still sat on the old seats, but now we have more comfortable seats. I shall write to them personally and invite them to come again. I shall tell them this matter was raised in Parliament. I notice they address the hon member as “Congressman”. [Interjections.]

Is there still anybody to whom I must reply, Mr Chairman? [Interjections.] I do not think so. We can thus start with the Third Reading. [Interjections.]

Schedules agreed to.

House Resumed:

Bill reported.

Third Reading

Mr Speaker, I move, subject to Standing Order No 56:

Mr Speaker, we are now coming to the end of what has been a very long debate. I think the overall importance and interest shown in the SATS has been borne out by the number of speakers who took part in this debate during the course of the week. Certainly we on these benches had no less than 10 speakers in the Committee Stage alone. I believe that speakers from this side of the House made excellent contributions. The hon the Minister himself paid tribute to some of them. I believe from our side came good, constructive criticism. I should like to thank speakers on my side for their efforts which I naturally thought were the most outstanding efforts of all the contributions in this debate.

I want to return to the original theme that I started on Wednesday of last week, namely the business aspect and the political aspect of the SATS. Let me deal firstly with the business aspect.

There can be no doubt in the mind of anyone who has sat in this House for the past few days that great strides have indeed been made by the SATS in its business management. I think one would also have the impression that there is still a long way to go. There is room for improvement in many areas. Just as an example, as regard the budget that has been set for the coming financial year, 1984-85, I personally think that the budgeting has been too low, particularly in the section dealing with Railways. The revenue has been estimated at too low a figure and I believe expenses have been estimated at too high a figure. A budget should not necessarily be a target which one must strive for. It should be realistic otherwise it becomes too easy for management all the way down the line to achieve. I believe that particularly the Railway budgeting is not sufficiently realistic especially in the light of economic features for increased growth. I want to stick my neck out and say in this debate that I believe we will find that for the year 1984-85, when we come to the end of the road—or to the end of the railway line, perhaps I should say—the SATS will come out with a surplus of at least R200 million.

As far as the political aspects are concerned, I am afraid the situation is not as happy. When one looks at inflation and the adverse effect that this Budget is likely to have on the inflation rate in South Africa, one is concerned. We believe that the increase in tariffs is far too high. This is partly because we feel the budgeting was done on too low a basis and therefore one worked from the wrong basic premise in terms of how much additional revenue one needed. I believe the tariff increases could have been at least halved. It is all very well for hon members on that side of the House to talk of an increase in wages but one must realize that in these days many people are unemployed. One must realize that many people do not receive wages at all, but they still have to travel. They still have to go from their Guguletus for Sowetos into the towns to look for jobs. They still have to pay that fare. I very sincerely hope that the better management that I believe has been demonstrated today will lead to minimal rises in the future.

To turn to the aspect of private enterprise, I want to welcome the hon the Minister’s statement and I want to draw attention to it because I believe it is important. The hon the Minister said—(Unrevised Hansard, 7 March 1984):

I welcome that statement; I believe that it should be implemented. As far as the socioeconomic services are concerned, the hon the Minister knows that we have pleaded constantly for more permanent arrangements to be made with the Treasury, and he has replied to those questions. As far as the competitiveness of road transport and other services are concerned, we must realize that the haulier already pays for certain costs of the infrastructure; in other words, for the roads. The hon the Minister last year increased the levy on petrol that goes towards the building of roads, and obviously the hauliers pay their share of that. They also pay their licence fees which go towards road construction. Perhaps that contribution is insufficient; perhaps it should be even greater. However, this applies also to the SATS. Perhaps their contribution towards the building of a road, in view of the amount of business they are doing in road transportation, should also be greater. One must also bear in mind that the cost of fuel to the SATS.

I believe that these attitudes that the hon the Minister has shown should now be expressed in legislation. Let us make it easier for the private haulier to carry out his business. The Road Transportation Act needs amending. Intercity Express Services, as the hon the Minister knows, are operating under a Supreme Court injunction. Let us show our commitment to fair competition by removing the embargo on these services and let us allow them to operate. If private enterprise requires this service they will use it. If these people are not providing an economic, beneficial service then private enterprise will not use them. Let us therefore put them back on the map; in other words, let us do something more than talk.

We also welcome the comment the hon the Minister made on Black taxis. The fact that he agrees that to allow only four passengers in a combi rather than nine is wasteful, is very, very welcome. It is wasteful, it does not make sense, and I hope the hon member Dr Welgemoed will bear this in mind. However, we will pursue the subject of Black taxis during the debate on the Budget Vote of the Department of Transport because it does not really belong here.

I want now to get on to the subject of apartheid on the SATS. We must confess that this debate has been a very great disappointment. We have had the CP pulling the hon the Minister one way—on the way of discrimination and onto the road of racism; in other words, on the old style National Party politics. On the other hand we have had the PFP in this debate pulling towards integration and quality for all in the SATS. We genuinely believed that in view of recent developments in South Africa—I refer to the new constitutional proposals and obviously to the referendum where there was a massive yes vote and that vote was a vote for reform—the hon the Minister would pull the SATS towards our way of thinking. On Tuesday evening the hon the Minister said that the previous Minister, Ben Schoeman, had said there would have to be changes, and that we would change with the times. He then said: “As ’n mens ’n praktiese politikus is dan besef jy dat omstandighede verander”. We are optimistic after that statement. We thought that on Wednesday we would hear a commitment to reform in the SATS, a move away from apartheid, so much so that a newspaper on Wednesday morning published a headline: “SATS Apartheid laws could be set for change”. What a disappointment to pick up the paper today and see a headline “Trein-apartheid vir Ministers.” Train apartheid is obviously going to remain. Obviously separation of the races on SA Transport Services is still to remain the watchword. Eugene Terre ’Blanche and Jaap Marais must certainly be rejoicing, wherever they are today. This will damage South Africa’s image. There is no question about it. That hon Minister is creating a whole number of potential Colin Crofts out of every Coloured and Indian member of Parliament, out of every Black, Coloured and Indian visiting sportsman. It is going to be impossible to put an escort at the disposal of every single one of these people. How will conductors know who to kick out unceremoniously and who to treat with deference? Those poor people who have to police this cannot possibly hope to be able to manage. These Coloureds and Indians are going to come up against the hard realities of apartheid, and the hon the Minister of Foreign Affairs, who said he needed this as much as a hole in his head, is going to have a head that will look like a colander.

When reports appear in the overseas Press we know very well what is going to happen. The English Press is going to be blamed instead of the blame being placed where it belongs. That is on the fact that SA Transport Services will still be practising apartheid.

I want to repeat what the hon the Minister said about third class train fares. Looking at what the hon the Minister said I believe I was quite justified in calling him the Marie Antoinette of the SATS. Let me quote from the hon the Minister’s speech:

What is the clear implication of these statements? As I say, I believe I was totally justified in calling him indeed the Marie Antoinette of the SATS. [Interjections.]

On the topic of separation of the SA Airways from the SATS, I want to state very briefly that the hon the Minister said it would require extra management and extra staff. That is not so. I believe that fewer staff would be required. I ask the hon the Minister to take a poll amongst his flying staff—the whole of the flying staff of the SA Airways. I believe the hon the Minister will find that they, the key personnel of the SA Airways, will prefer to go the SA Airways way and not the SATS way.

Talking about this I made a remark about which I was pulled up by hon members on the Government side. I said we should not run SA Airways with a railway mentality. People on the Government side seem to think that I implied something derogatory in making that statement. That was not my intention at all. Why should I believe that a Railway mentality is in some way inferior? I believe it is a very excellent mentality to have if one is running railways but not if one is running airways. I have indeed gone to some lengths to congratulate the SA Railways on what they have achieved. How then can I be accused of saying a railway mentality is something less worthwhile?

I also want to clear up a misunderstanding in connection with an interjection that was made during the course of my speech yesterday. The hon member for Durban North apparently interjected: “Do you not care about oil pollution?” While I was speaking there was a certain amount of noise, and I thought he had said: “Would that not cause oil pollution?” Consequently I said: “No, of course not”. Hansard reflects of course that I said I did not care about oil pollution. Nothing could be further from the truth, Sir. In fact only yesterday I had a question on the Order Paper about the Castillo de Bellver, and last year I went to a considerable amount of trouble over possible oil pollution from the fishing trawler washed up on the coast near Port Elizabeth.

To sum up, Mr Speaker, I want to point out that the tariff increases of this Budget are without doubt inflationary. They will have a ripple effect throughout the economy. The consumer will end up paying more. The continuation of apartheid is certainly distressing. I believe that the potential damage to South Africa’s good name through its continuation is incalculable. I hope most sincerely that wiser counsel will ultimately prevail. I believe that it is very necessary that in the SATS as well as the country as a whole we move towards a more integrated society.

Mr Speaker, I should like to begin by replying to a few points raised by the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central.

The first point that troubles me somewhat is that he keeps saying that the tariffs are too high. From the outset the hon the Minister indicated very clearly when discussing this matter that this was something that was not only discussed in this House. Before the hon the Minister took this step he asked all bodies in South Africa, such as Assocom, the Chamber of Mines, the SA Agricultural Union and others, to contribute an input. All these organizations agreed that the SATS was subject to market forces on the same basis as any other organizations. I cannot understand why the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central keeps saying that the tariffs are too high. In the first place they are lower than the prevailing rate of inflation and in the second place, where is the additional financial assistance to come from? That is still the question, and the hon member is not giving us a reply to it.

On the one hand the hon the Minister is complying with the social obligations of the SATS, those obligations that it is essential to comply with, and it does so with the aid of the Treasury and by way of cross-subsidization. The hon member for Port Elizabeth Central is not satisfied that this should be done by way of cross-subsidization. The hon member has had several turns to speak but he has not yet told us what alternative can be found in the short term.

You have been told constantly from these benches.

He does not present an alternative. As soon as he is driven into a corner he resorts to politics by speaking about the manpower position and saying that the hon the Minister should travel second or third class. That does not solve the financial problem. To run away every time as the hon member for Greytown did, and to hide behind politics, does not solve the problem either. However, I shall come back to the hon member for Greytown. At this stage I just want to say this to the hon the Minister of Transport Affairs: Go ahead and follow the lead of the hon the Prime Minister. Ignore the CP and the PFP. I think that what we are doing is the right thing for South Africa, and this is also true in the field of transport.

I am very pleased that the hon the Minister of Transport Affairs has announced that he is in favour of us becoming more competitive and that he is also in favour of us moving closer to a market-orientated economy. I think that both of these ideas of the hon the Minister are very good ones and I think that we should move in that direction as soon as possible. This would also solve the problem that every time that the PFP is driven into a corner with regard to a matter like tariff increases they resort to politics. Naturally transport matters are political. We must not try to talk our way around that. We must realize that. Transport affairs and politics go hand in hand, and not only in South Africa. Throughout the world, if anyone wants to exploit a political situation or abuse anything, he uses transport. Whether it is a matter of meat prices in Poland or the bread prices in Tunisia or the PFP in South Africa, transport is used. We must accept that. It is the point of departure throughout the world that transport is politically and economically sensitive, and we have often said this in this House. However, I think that hiding behind that is rather outrageous.

The hon member for Port Elizabeth Central made further mention of the role of the Road Transport Services of the SATS in competition with the private sector. I wonder if the hon member took the trouble to find out how much of the total transport market is served by this division of the SATS. It is less than 1,5%. Let the hon member hear this today so that he can put it in his pipe and smoke it and so that he will not come and ask the same old questions again next year. It is less than 1,5%.

The hon member for Greytown quoted a long list of figures. I had originally thought that the hon the Minister and the officials of the SATS had done good work in handing out this memorandum by the hon the Minister on the latest statistics, but today I have my reservations about it because the hon members—whatever Opposition benches they sit in; it does not matter—misused this information document just as they misuse other information documents. I want to ask the hon member very bluntly whether he understands what is stated in the memorandum.

You have begun misusing the figures.

I used a figure I had obtained from the Railways, and the Railways stand by their figures. We cannot concern ourselves with the hon member’s bitter attacks.

I used the same source as you.

The figures he used are quite wrong. I think it is most regrettable that the hon member should stoop to the point at which he had to use those figures to incite race hatred. I think that the hon member for Greytown and the hon “Congressman” of Bezuidenhout are under the impression that it is better to arouse feelings and to incite politics than to make a contribution towards the solution of the problems of transport. I expect of the two hon members, the hon member for Greytown and the hon “Congressman”, interpretations and distortions of this nature in order to support certain standpoints that suit them. If I had been in their position then I should not have been able to resist the temptation to do the same.

I now turn to something else that the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central referred to, viz taxis. I want to convey my sincere thanks to the hon the Minister for having given some background information about taxis yesterday. I think we must stop talking about a taxi. These people are not running taxi businesses. Nor do they regard their vehicles as taxis, but as mini-buses, microbuses, combi-buses or combi-taxis. They appeared before the commission twice and they were there for many hours. These people themselves say that they are not interested in rendering a service by taking an individual from one point to another. They say this frankly and I do not quarrel with them on that score. This is a segment of the market that the commission recognized and in the regard to which a recommendation has been made to the hon the Minister. Let me quote once again recommendation R 36 in the final report of the commission. I do this for the edification of the hon “Congressman” of Bezuidenhout. It reads:

This point was recognized by Mr Seyani, the chairman of SABTA—the South African Black Taxi Association. He even went so far as to enter into certain agreements with the bus service camp, namely SABOA, so that they could meet and solve the problem.

Let us state here and now, once and for all, that the arousing of feelings regarding this matter by the Financial Mail, the UDF, the PFP and certain members of Assocom will not yield results, because we spelt out very clearly what the aim was. The commission went on to recommend that two markets be created. Once again I want to read an extract for the sake of those hon members who only read The Cape Times and think it is the Gospel, I shall quote recommendation R 37:

It is a motor vehicle which will take one or two or even three people from one place to another and not a large number of people. That is how the hon the Minister explained it yesterday.

The commission discussed the matter with the people who submitted evidence to us, and we settled the matter with them. We then said that we should create a new category within which the people belonging under recommendation R36 could be accommodated. We recommended that a mini-bus category be created for them. A vehicle in that category need not have only eight or nine seats. There were members of the commission who thought differently, but we voted and the majority took a decision which is clearly reflected in recommendations R37 and R38. We decided to expand the category from six to 25; not eight or nine, but 25. That is the category of mini-buses that covers the combi market. There are places, and they have been pointed out to this commission, where we can accommodate 25 people. The commission has investigated the matter and there are vehicles on the market that can meet this requirement. Accordingly we are creating a category that is different to the normal bus service involving subsidies and several other requirements. Now hon members opposite and all the other people I mentioned earlier in my speech must tell me whether they do not want the Black entrepreneur—there are also White, Coloured and Indian entrepreneurs—who have appeared before the commission—to be classified into a new category so that they can use larger vehicles when the need arises? The commission did that, but the people I have just been referring to said that the commission was seeking to wreck the whole industry. However, in this regard one must draw a distinction. The commission expressed an opinion about those whose right of existence should be considered anew, viz those operating such services without a permit. They are doing what I would be doing if I were to manufacture cheese without taking health regulations into account, without having milk but instead simply using milk powder I picked up along the road, or if I were to milk a cow in the street and compete with the hon congressman for Bezuidenhout. That he does not want. Assocom does not want it either.

Mr Speaker, on a point of order: Should the hon member not refer to other hon members in the House as “hon members”?

Yes, and the hon member must please take cognizance of that.

Mr Speaker, I shall oblige the hon member from now on after he has had an unpleasant experience with his colleagues in America. The hon member for Bezuidenhout is not prepared to permit the position of his friends to be jeopardized. Let me give a further example. No-one would allow a Black man to take up a position in front of a shoe shop in Johannesburg and sell shoes there at a quarter of the price. He would very soon be chased away. As the hon the Minister said, we must be clear on the point that we must always compete with one another on an equal basis. Hon members opposite who are so full of criticism must try to take a very close look at the market situation. A study of this matter is in progress at the moment. This study is going to cost a great deal of money and will be faced with many problems. It will take four years before the Cabinet will be able to make any recommendations in this regard. What must we permit in four years’ time? Further chaos? Is that what the hon member for Bezuidenhout wants? The hon member is himself chaos. That is why he wants it.

Order! The hon member must withdraw that.

I withdraw it, Mr Speaker.

I now wish to come back to my speech and I request the hon the Minister to listen to a few ideas I wish to put forward. The hon the Minister need not accept the points I make. All he must do is to convey them to his other colleagues in the transport world. I want to speak in particular about the problems of the handicapped. The hon the Minister also referred to this yesterday and I should like to say in the short time at my disposal that the handicapped are a group of people for whom I should like to make an appeal here today. The matter has been discussed in the past. I should like to refer to this, not because I want to ask favours, but because I want to discuss the position of these people from the point of view of the provision of transport and from a planning point of view.

There has been a great deal of debate about these people in the past. When I was still attached to a university we tried to carry out research into this subject. However, the money and manpower necessary to go into this matter in full was not available. One of the problems in this regard is that not enough is being done about this whole matter. I wish to refer to three aspects relating to the handicapped. The first is the need of the handicapped person. The second aspect is what a carrier can do to accommodate these people. The third aspect is the role that the community can play in this regard.

At this stage there is a great deal we can do for these people. As far as I have been able to determine there are approximately 250 000 physically handicapped people in South Africa. This classification as regards how they are handicapped is not very clear or accurate and therefore I just wish to mention it. When planning is carried out the hon the Minister must play his part and ask planners to plan in such a way that these people have mobility and may be accommodated.

Mr Speaker, I would first of all like to apologize to the hon the Minister as I have to leave immediately after I have spoken. This debate is not running according to schedule as there has been a mix-up somewhere. Be that as it may, I have to leave and catch one of the hon the Minister’s aircraft. Secondly, I want to thank the hon member for Rissik for allowing me to jump the queue and use his speaking time in this debate.

I want to talk about the degree of consensus which has been achieved in this debate this year. I intend doing so, but first of all I would like to refer briefly to that area of the debate in which there was very little consensus. That was on the matter of integration on the Railways.

At the outset I would like to say that one’s attitude here depends an awful lot on one’s perception of how humans react, of how one should handle human relationships in a plural society such as we have in South Africa, and how one should handle them in the manner which will best build mutual respect between groups. We heard it very clearly from the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central this afternoon when he said that the debate has been a great disappointment because on the one hand the Conservative Party was pulling one way for apartheid. That is correct. The CP want to re-entrench the apartheid of old. If they examine their own hearts, it will mean that they want to entrench White privilege and with that comes discrimination. In no way can we build mutual respect in South Africa if the system is built on privilege and discrimination.

The hon member for Port Elizabeth Central went further and said:

That is exactly what the PFP wants to do. They want integration. However, their perception of the future is such that if they had the say, they would do what the liberals in America did. They would end up with forcing integration on people in a manner similar to the “bussing” of school-children principles used in the USA.

Rubbish!

They say rubbish, but are they not trying to force integration in Durban on the beachfront paddling pools and elsewhere? They want to force integration and the Conservative Party wants to enforce segregation.

You are a liar.

Order! The hon member for Pietermaritzburg South must withdraw that remark.

I withdraw it, Sir.

The Government has gone through a bit of a change and today they are becoming more and more what this party has always been, namely pluralists. Pluralists acknowledge the plurality of their nation and they are sensitive to people’s differences. They do not try to force upon people what they would necessarily like to see happen. We tend to respect people’s different viewpoints on things.

[Inaudible.]

The hon member for Pietermaritzburg North being a farmer will know that even the Black people cannot be forced to conform with a particular idea. One of the Indunas on my farm who is a Xhosa would rather send his child—despite the fact that I offered to pay the transport and education fees—to Transkei to be educated that have him educated in a nearby Zulu school. As he said to me, he wants his son te be brought up as a Xhosa. Their initiation rights are different and they have other basic differences and that is why he wanted his son to go back to the Transkei. [Interjections.]

We are pluralists and we believe that South Africa is undergoing change for the better. We have the Blue Train, the Drakenberg Express and the SAA where there is a large measure of integration. I believe there is in the pipeline a possibility that the Trans-Karoo, the Trans-Natal and the Trans-Orange trains will in the future be declared international trains. If this is so, the Indian and Coloured MPs and others will be accommodated. I do not know whether this is going to happen, but I sincerely hope that it will be made possible for this to happen but in a manner which will take cognizance of the sensitivities of our different groups of people.

I want to get back to the areas of consensus. I believe there has been a fairly high degree of consensus achieved, firstly, that is in the best interests of the South African economy that the SATS should adopt a strictly businesslike approach to its operations. I think that that is generally accepted today. The hon the Minister has stated that in his speech and we believe that the SATS appears to be heading in that direction.

There is also consensus that competition between all sectors of the transport industry is necessary to ensure that transportation in South Africa will be both efficient and cost-effective. I believe that this is what we have to strive for, ie competition. At the present time, it is very difficult for the Railways to compete. A note was given to me indicating that a person wanting steel from Vereeniging shipped to the Cape finds that, even if he has own siding, to do it by rail costs R148 per ton whereas he can get it transported by road for R85 per ton. Transporting it by road is also far more convenient and there is no delay in delivery. This is the kind of competition with which the Railways have to deal.

There is also a degree of consensus that, in order to enable this competition to develop, there has to be a considerable degree of clearing of the decks, so to speak. By that I mean that many of the anomalies must be clearly identified, analysed and corrected in order that we may obtain this competition. The first such anomally is that of cross-subsidization. I think it is now common cause that it must go. Then, we also require correct costing and accounting in regard to the so-called socio-economic services as well as in regard to the so-called free passenger services to which I have referred. Once we have achieved that, I believe there is general agreement today that, where socio-economic services do exist, these must be subsidized by the State. Once we have done that, the way is open for real competition between the various sectors.

There is also agreement that the so-called unfair competition must be removed. As the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central said, the private sector has to pay its fair share towards the costs of the road infrastructure, but that means that the hon the Minister must also pay his fair share in respect of his vehicles. One thinks, for example, of licences. He cannot also get cheaper fuel, cheaper tyres and so on. That is a form of unfair competition in favour of the SATS at the present time. Then there is the protection the hon the Minister’s vehicles enjoy under the provisions of the Road Transportation Act. Once we have cleared the deck, once we have removed the socio-economic burden from the SATS and got those services to be paid for by way of State subsidies, there is no reason why the hon the Minister’s operations should have the protection they presently enjoy in many respects under the Road Transportation Act. There is no doubt about the fact that this is a very complex problem. We in these benches acknowledge that it is not an easy problem to solve. It is a many-faceted problem which requires much in-depth study. Therefore, I appeal to the hon the Minister to ask the National Transport Commission and its committee which is studying national transport policy to expedite their work. They have been on it now for two years and I hear that it is going to take a further two years. I wonder whether it needs to take a further two years. The report is urgently needed and I appeal to the hon the Minister to try and get things moving a bit faster.

I have very little time left. I want to thank the hon the Minister for stating the other day that the amending legislation, which was in draft form, would go to a Select Committee before being introduced in the House. That is in accordance with one of the legs of my amendment. I want to thank him for that and tell him that the private sector appreciates this very much indeed. I sincerely hope that, when the Select Committee meets, we will be able to call for evidence or representations from the private sector so that we can try to sort out a lot of the matters the hon member Dr Welgemoed has raised. I think that this was a very wise decision on the part of the hon the Minister, because I believe it encourages consensus-forming which we would like to see achieved in South Africa. I believe it is going to be in the best long-term interests of transportation.

Mr Speaker, I am not going to refer specifically to the hon member who has just resumed his seat, but on a later occasion I hope to say something about the NRP’s attitude. I think it is necessary, however, for the House to take note of certain statements made here today which, in my opinion, do tremendous damage to relations and create the impression that the SATS is applying discriminatory measures to its own employees of colour. The figures which the young hon member for Greytown quoted relate to housing and so on. If he were to read the SATS annual report properly, he would find it to contain a few items, amongst other things the fact that more and more use is being made of Black people, Coloureds and Indians. Today they occupy posts previously filled by Whites. I want to ask a simple question in this connection. If these people were really all that dissatisfied with their overall conditions of service, and with what is being done for them in the sphere of housing, why would they enter the employ of an employee who treats them so badly? What is the actual position? I quote from page 59 of the annual report:

I can quote further examples of what is happening. I am sure that annually the SATS must receive thousands of applications from Black people, Coloureds and Indians who want to enter its employ. The hon member for Greytown, however, mentions figures in regard to housing and says it is unfair that a White employee can obtain a home-loan of up to R60 000 …

R80 000.

Very well. If the hon member were to open his eyes, he would surely know that the housing of Black people, Coloured and Indians is not of the same standard as that of Whites. That is, after all, their own choice. They do not necessarily receive the same salaries or wages and the Whites, except if they occupy the same post. What is the true state of affairs? Let me quote from page 63 of the annual report, under the heading “House Ownership Scheme for Coloured Personnel”:

I just made a quick little calculation—I am not saying my figures are necessarily correct—and it seems to me that this amounts to an average loan of approximately R34 000 being granted to each applicant. Does the hon member for Greytown now want to suggest that we are discriminating against Coloureds and Indians?

I never said that.

Then, what, in fact, did the hon member say? [Interjections.] The conditions are, after all, exactly the same. The hon member, however, creates the impression that Whites may obtain loans of R80 000, whilst Coloureds and Indians may only get a maximum loan of R30 000. There are some Whites in the private sector, however, who obtain loans of R150 000, whilst there are others who perhaps get only R25 000. It depends, of course, on what a person’s income is. The point, however, is whether people have equal opportunities to obtain loans of this kind. So the hon member cannot blame the SATS for discriminating against the Coloureds and placing the Whites in a privileged position. The hon member must choose his arguments more carefully, and before participating in this kind of debate, he must at least take a little trouble and make a study of the subject. [Interjections.]

This debate chiefly revolved around a few aspects. In the first place it concerned the tariff increases, then also employees who were supposedly dismissed and, lastly, the political argument about who could and who could not become Ministers in the new dispensation and who would not be able to serve on the Transport Services Board. In addition, the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central alleged that we would be going on with apartheid.

The hon members of the NRP again chiefly focused on the argument that SATS revenue ought to be increased, that free trips on trains should be strictly limited, that the SATS should not be too generous. The hon member for Amanzimtoti is rightly concerned about the profitability or otherwise of the SATS. For me this debate was a revelation, however, of the close, unspoken ties and understanding between the PFP and the CP. What happened when the hon member for Kuruman resumed his seat after having asked certain questions in the debate? Then the hon member for Berea and the hon member for Pinelands took the debate further, and even the hon member for Park-town had a little something to say about this. The one would like to make people of colour feel dissatisfied, whilst the other would like to have the Whites feel dissatisfied. Both these parties, however, are playing a diabolical game that does not bode well—embodies no prosperity and happiness—for our country. [Interjections.] Racial tension could temporarily benefit the PFP and the CP, but it could do permanent damage to relations in South Africa. That is the game that both those parties played in the referendum, and it would seem to me as if they would like to continue that game. There is a “mutual admiration club” of which those two political parties are members, because if the CPs cause a bit of embarrassment and possibly win a seat, the flames of satisfaction burn brightly in the Prog camp and glasses are clinked in celebration. They adopt the attitude that “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”. Whether the onslaught comes from the radical left wing or the radical right wing, it will not prevent us from doing what is right and what is just for all groups in South Africa, particularly minority groups in this country whose identity and, in particular, way of life we are earnestly concerned about. That is why it is clear that the SATS employees, particularly those who come into contact with the public, are trained in public relations so as to enable them to prevent unpleasant incidents. The non-Whites in South Africa are the biggest supporters of the SATS. Non-Whites are our clients, and we must constantly look to their comfort and happiness. Maintaining proper order and civilized standards in public transport, however, is also in their interest.

I should now like to focus my attention a little more specifically on the financial aspects of this Budget.

†I should point out that deficit budgeting is a financial device which has more disadvantages than advantages. One can also not continue with it indefinitely. No one in private life or engaged in business or in farming can continue to live on credit, and deficit budgeting is very similar to living on credit. That deficit has to be liquidated sooner or later, and the sooner the better. Continuous deficits would place an enormous strain on the financial resources of the SATS, and also of course on the financial resources of the country as a whole. We have to compete for loans on the open market and if more money is borrowed, interest rates will soar and remain at high level because competition and a demand for the available money will be simply too strong. That will again result in a very high cost structure and one will consequently have less success in combating and beating inflation.

The recent annual deficits should have had a bad effect on our financing costs. I am referring now of course to the SATS. That particular point addresses us clearly and loudly in this particular budget and also in the relevant explanatory documents. Therefore the wise thing to do, I submit, would be to prevent deficit budgeting. We achieved success with economy measures in the past financial year.

*That is why our deficit is only R11 million. It is better, of course, not to depend solely on economy measures, and that is why, in the coming year, we need additional revenue that can be obtained by way of reasonable higher tariffs. This would be able to reduce an expected deficit of R620 million to a deficit of approximately R100 million. By way of further savings and higher productivity, as well as the expected upswing in the economy, we could possibly eliminate the deficit completely, or at least drastically reduce it. Expectations give rise to miracles, and the SATS management has already shown that the day of miracles is not past.

That is why we on this side of the House are saying that the hon the Minister and his management should be give a chance. They are proving themselves, and the Opposition parties still have to do their own self-searching. It is surely not difficult to carry out such a self-examination. Such a self-examination could be done very quickly, because they themselves can offer the SATS, and the South African economy in general, nothing better than we can. For that reason we support the Third Reading of this Appropriation Bill.

Mr Speaker, there is a particular matter I wish to bring to the attention of the hon the Minister. On 22 December last year, when the Trans-Karoo left Hutchinson station, a Coloured person assaulted a certain Mr Van Coller, using his fists and his head. Since the train was moving, Mr Van Coller could do nothing to defend himself. He immediately reported the incident to the conductor—I can give the details to the hon the Minister later—and the conductor recommended that Mr Van Coller bring the matter to the attention of the police on De Aar station. Mr Van Coller gave details of the incident to a member of the Railway Police on the platform at De Aar and was urged to report the incident to the police in Johannesburg. On 23 December he gave full details of the matter to a Sergeant Potgieter, and at that point the matter took a somewhat unsavoury turn. Mrs Van Coller wrote a letter to Die Burger in which she mentioned the incident, and unfortunately the police apparently took no action in this matter. Brigadier Malan also wrote in Die Burger that no such charge had come to the attention of the police. However, we have proof that the incident was indeed brought to the attention of the police in Johannesburg. I do not want to make a long story of this matter because there could have been a misunderstanding somewhere. [Interjections.] Hon members need not become so excited. I am speaking in the interests of a man who, among other things, sustained injuries, a man who is not a rich man, a man who had to pay R214 for a new pair of glasses. I raise this matter because the whole issue of the safety of people on stations was discussed in the Second Reading debate. On Hutchinson station there is only one cafe, and Coloureds congregate there. It is not the first time that Whites have been assaulted, sworn at or abused while the train has been halted or while it was moving off. That is why I raise the matter.

A lax MP.

A lax MP? Who is the MP for Hutchinson? Find out for yourselves. He is a member of the NP. [Interjections.] After the report had appeared in Die Burger yesterday, the police followed the matter up, and I have heard from Mrs Van Coller that they took a statement from Mr Van Coller yesterday. I just wish to ask the hon the Minister to see to it in future that when members of the Railway Police are requested to take action in cases where people have submitted complaints, they act more promptly and do not wait from 22 December to 7 March before taking a statement from the person in question.

The remaining deficit of R106 million is regarded by the hon the Minister as the contribution of the SATS to the reduction in the rate of inflation. I should like to know from the hon the Minister in what non-inflationary way he wants to finance this deficit of R106 million, and what the effect of such action will be on the account of the SATS. If the hon the Minister wishes to argue that he wants to do by way of further savings, I want to say to him that it was not necessary to budget for this deficit since he could have made provision for it in his Budget.

The hon the Minister ascribes the improvement of R623 million in the budgeted working results of 1983-84 to savings, but he failed to inform us of the fact that a good R205 million derives from revenue. Almost R182 million of this is due to an increase in revenue from railway passengers. I am in fact repeating this question to the hon the Minister because I asked about this in the Second Reading debate, but in his reply the hon the Minister said:

However, the hon the Minister did not answer, and I paged through Hansard. He probably overlooked a piece of paper. He said that he had replied to me, but I consulted the unrevised Hansard version of his speech and it is evident from it that the hon the Minister did not comment on the matter. He said to me that we should use the expression “compensation” rather than the word “subsidies!”.

As long as passenger and other public transport services are subsidized in the urban areas—I can probably use the word “subsidize” in this context—I believe this is an incentive for industrialists rather to establish themselves in the existing urban areas than to move to the border areas. The point I want to make is that transport in the urban areas is subsidized and therefore industrialists keep their industries in the existing areas instead of moving out to the border areas.

The question therefore arises whether this loss on urban transport services, whether by rail or bus, should not be recovered from the industries and businessmen in the areas in question. If subsidization could rather be channelled to the border areas, then the joint effect of the subsidies and—if I may call them that—the transport levies that the industrialists and businessmen have to pay, ought to be a sufficient deterrent to further expansion in the existing overfull industrial areas. In this way there ought to be a movement towards development in the border areas.

I should like to air a few ideas in connection with our traction units. Due to technological development and for other reasons, the old steam locomotive has become relatively unpopular and is increasingly being withdrawn from service; it is very rapidly being replaced by diesel and electric traction units. I am beginning to have reservations as to whether we are really doing the right thing by withdrawing the steam locomotives on such a large scale. The electrical traction units are capital-intensive. I believe that nowadays an electric locomotive costs something between R1,3 and R1,6 million. Therefore it is capital-intensive. In addition there is the electrification of lines and so on, as well as the question of the building of power stations and substations and the importation of expensive electrical equipment for the traction units. Apart from the foreign exchange it consumes, it is also a poor provider of employment opportunities for people in South Africa. At this stage provision of employment is very important particularly as far as the lower income groups are concerned. Diesel locomotives, in turn, are fuel-intensive. They require skilled maintenance staff and virtually all the components have to be imported. In contrast, the steam locomotive is labour-intensive and is a major provider of job opportunities over a very broad front. I note that the Black coalmen who, in terms of a regulation dating some years back, were only to work in shunting yards near stations, are now working as full-fledged firemen on the De Aar/Kimberley line. I merely mention this in passing. Probably that is a reflection of how times are changing. The steam locomotive is a major provider of employment for unskilled labour. Virtually all the parts of the locomotive are manufactured in South Africa. Therefore, apart from the savings in foreign exchange it provides, the use of steam locomocitves creates employment opportunities. I believe that in present circumstances we should take another careful look at this situation.

This debate on the budget will probably go down in history as the great egg-dance debate. I often felt sorry for the hon the Minister, but admired him, too, for the masterly way in which the skirted around replies to the questions asked by hon members of the CP and the PFP. Unfortunately, time does not permit me to go into detail at this point. The hon the Minister’s problem is that, on the one hand, he has to keep in mind thousands of people who still believe that the NP is on the road of separate development, whereas on the other hand he also has to satisfy the people of the left wing who support him. With all his egg-dancing he did give us one assurance. Towards the end of the debate we did at least hear how the hon the Minister feels about one specific matter. He said: “If a Coloured Minister travels to Cape Town by train, then I book him a Coloured compartment. I shall travel in the White compartment in the same coach.” This is now recorded in Hansard and we know what the hon the Minister’s standpoint is in this regard. Therefore in the future there will be a coach in which Whites, Coloureds and Indians will travel, but each will be in his own compartment.

Mr Speaker, perhaps one day the hon member for De Aar will also arrive at a place the spelling of which begins with an “H”, and where he will also find Coloureds and Indians.

I should also like to avail myself of this opportunity to thank the hon the Prime Minister and his Government for the relief provided for the flood-ravaged areas in Northern Natal, the Eastern Transvaal and Zululand. The hon the Minister of Environment Affairs and Fisheries, who is also the chairman of the special Cabinet Committee, made the announcement about the flood relief yesterday. On this occasion I want to tell the Government that the helping hand it is extending is greatly appreciated.

A tremendous amount of damage has been done to SATS equipment and railway lines in this area. I also want to convey our sincere gratitude and congratulations to those concerned for the record time in which this repair work was carried out by the SATS. The railway line for transporting coal to Richards Bay was damaged and it was repaired within a few days so that the transport of coal could proceed. The railway bridge over the Umfolozi River was washed away, and within a few days a causeway was erected and traffic was again able to flow normally. It was washed away again during the second cyclone and the bridge was once again repaired within a few days.

The hon member for De Aar mentioned the fact that the extension of border areas should be encouraged. I should like to sketch the role of the SATS in this regard for hon members. Before I come to that, I first just way to say that without exception everyone in this country is dependent on the SATS. The SATS tackles many projects which have led directly to tremendous growth and expansion. As an example I wish to refer to a part of my constituency which was not washed away by the recent cylone, viz the man-made wonder, the Richards Bay harbour.

The immediate surrounding areas in Northern Natal and the Transvaal—in fact, the entire country—has benefited tremendously from this development. This development has resulted in the effective utilization and promotion of decentralized employment opportunities away from the metropolitan areas. Employment opportunities are being created for thousands of Zulus who live in their homeland and work at this growth point. Development draws investors and domestic, as well as foreign industrialists as a result of the facilities created by the SATS and which are continually being expanded. I shall furnish details to illustrate this point at a later stage. Foreign trade is being expanded by this development so that more foreign exchange can be earned. As regards the exporting of coal, we have earned a great deal of foreign exchange, and this amount will be increased considerably in the near future. We are dealing with a vacillating gold price and we will shortly be earning from coal virtually half of what we earn from gold.

When one looks at the annual report of the SATS the importance of this project that has been tackled is obvious. As regards the year 1982-83, 30 million tons, or 50% of the total tonnage shipped by all South African harbours, was shipped by the Richards Bay harbour. As far as the present financial year is concerned, a total of 25,5 million tons was exported up to the end of January. In January 1984 the total for the month was 2,4 million tons, which represents an annual tempo of 34,84 million tons. Fortunately the demand for coal is good once again and this harbour can handle the exporting of coal very efficiently. One could hardly imagine what this Budget would have looked like if this project had not been tackled by this Government years ago. Despite the cut-back on State expenditure development has continued to take place since the harbour was put into operation in 1976. The criticism is often expressed that there is too much expenditure and too little revenue, but it is obvious that if there is no further development, the revenue will necessarily suffer in the long term. We are therefore grateful that this Budget is once again making provision for extending the facilities further, which will result in more revenue for the SATS in the long run. With reference to the remark of the hon member for De Aar that there must be growth in the border areas. I want to say that the Empangeni/Richards Bay growth point was established as a result of this development on the part of the SATS. The Government’s decision to build this harbour in 1965 created the base and the potential for large-scale development at local, regional and national level.

The facilities created there draw both domestic and foreign investors, and the SATS and the country as a whole benefit a great deal. The first quays for handling bulk cargo were put into operation on 1 April 1976. Approximately 34 million tons per annum are being handled at present. When plans to increase the capacity of the coal terminus have been implemented by 1986-87, the exporting capacity will be 44 million tons per annum. Ships of up to 150 000 tons will be able to berth there, and facilities have been designed in such a way that with further dredging ships of up to 250 000 tons will be able to berth there. Berths for tankers of up to 50 000 tons have also been provided. Since April 1976 sound progress has been made with the construction of quays intended for clean bulk cargo. Four cargo quays with a total length of 1 300 metres have already been completed. A phosporic acid pipeline with a loading capacity of 2 000 tons per hour has been completed for the fertilizer industry on quay 703. A multi-purpose installation for bulk handling, which is one of the most modern in the world, has been provided. This installation was designed for both import and export and is equipped to unload trains, to transport goods to the sheds or directly to the ship, to ship goods, to unload goods from ships, to transport goods from the ship to the sheds, from the sheds to the train and from industries in the harbour area to the sheds or the ships, or vice versa. The following storage facilities for import and export goods were provided: Three silos for sand products, of which each has a capacity of 5 000 cubic metres—the density of the bulk cargo determines how much can be stored; two general storage sheds with a capacity of 100 000 to 300 000 tons, depending on the density of the materials or goods that have to be stored; and a storage shed for 100 000 tons of pig-iron. Modern export facilities have also been constructed. The plan is to erect an installation for handling steel, iron, alloys and granite as soon as the capacity of the coal line has been increased.

As far as this growth point is concerned, it is expected that by the year 2000 there will be 640 000 people. This is as a result of the expansion effected by the SATS. With a view to this expected growth, the planned highway from Durban to Richards Bay will have to be speeded up—I shall bring this matter up again under the Vote concerned and motivate it further. The Black population of the neighbouring towns will amount to almost 400 000 by the year 2000. We shall therefore have to look timeously at a shuttle rail service. Whilst the existing airport at Richards Bay pupils the medium-term needs of the area, it is important that a timeous programme for the development of a new regional airport be drawn up by the Department of Transport Affairs.

In conclusion, I should like to express my gratitude and appreciation to the Minister and the Management for providing housing at this growth point. We are grateful for the R6,5 million being voted in this Budget for the provision of staff housing. We are grateful to see hat housing is still being given high priority. We also wish to express the hope that the urgent need in this field will continue to be met. Our sincere gratitude goes to the hon the Minister and the Management for their efficient management. We wish them every success for the year that lies ahead.

Mr Speaker, the hon member for Umfolozi who has just sat down, represents an area which used to form part of the old Zululand constituency which was the first constituency which I represented when I came to this House some 30 years ago. I know the area fairly well. I should like to associate myself with the remarks made by the hon member for Umfolozi when he thanked the SATS for the assistance which it has rendered to the damaged areas as a result of the recent flooding, such as repair work to bridges. One knows the extreme difficulties that existed after the flood, and once again the SATS has come to the rescue. I commend the SATS for what it has done to assist that area.

I want to use a few arguments in support of the arguments used earlier this afternoon by the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central in his Third Reading speech. In my Second Reading speech I stated that with the exception of the commendable economies which have been effected and the obviously increased administrative efficiency, this Budget and the debate which surrounds it have in fact revealed that many of the old problems of the SATS still remain. I also stated that the hon the Minister had a lot to answer for in regard to these problems. The trouble is that when one talks about the hon the Minister having a lot to answer for, when it comes to major problems which are raised in debates of this kind, he just does not answer. We get no answer from him at all. The hon the Minister tends to skate around arguments or he deals with them superficially or even flippantly. This hon Minister, as has been said so often in this House, is a popular and likeable Minister with a refreshing sense of humour but he very often uses these qualities in order to dodge the issues which are raised in debate. In fact, he has become the Artful Dodger of the Cabinet.

Let us take, for example, the critical issue which has been raised in this debate, namely apartheid and discrimination in the SATS. The hon the Minister was confronted during the Second Reading debate with an amendment from the CP which, in a climate of reform and change, amounted to a plea for the retention of the status quo. There was a request that there should be no appointments of Coloureds and Indians to senior positions in the SATS. There was a request that strict segregation on railway stations should be applied. There was a request that racial mixing on trains should be prevented. On Tuesday evening when the hon the Minister commenced his reply to that debate he made some promising comments in regard to the CP’s racial attitude which was implicit in their amendment. He reminded the CP that there had already been changes in South Africa and that South Africa was a changed country, to use the words of the hon the Minister, which was progressing and not stagnating. I do not know what happened to the hon the Minister on Tuesday night. I did warn him in the afternoon that he probably would have nightmares. However, instead of having sweet dreams of having a SATS free of racial discrimination, free of hurtful racism and discrimination, he seemed to have a nightmare of a CP takeover or something of that sort. When he continued his reply to the Second Reading debate yesterday, he opted not for the progress that he had referred to before but instead opted for the very stagnation of the status quo. That was the effect of the reply the hon the Minister gave yesterday on the whole question of discrimination on the SATS. What has happened is that the message has gone out to the nation that notwithstanding the new dispensation and the climate for change and reform in South Africa, apartheid and discrimination will remain on the SATS. This is the message that has gone out. There will be strict segregation on railway stations and no racial mixing on trains. There will be separate coaches and separate compartments for all classes of travel for the different races and this will remain the order of the day. That is the import of what the hon the Minister said yesterday.

However, the hon the Minister completely dodged the questions which I put to him as to how he was going to justify this attitude in the light of the new dispensation and the new Parliament; as to how he was going to justify this attitude not for this Parliament but in the new dispensation. The hon the Minister is not unintelligent and he know that with this attitude in future his position will be completely untenable in the new dispensation. It is all right now while he sits in a White Parliament where there are too many chiefs and no Indians, but next year he is going to sit in one House where there are going to be too many Indians and not a single chief, or in a House where there are going to be too many Coloureds and not a single chief. He has to justify to those people—those people who are going to be good enough to share in the lawmaking processes of South Africa—why they are not also good enough to share the same railway coach or to have meals in the same dining saloon. It is as simple as that. How is he going to deal with those people?

The hon the Minister has sat through this long debate and has shown considerable endurance. However, I want to remind him that he will have to have triple endurance next year because he is going to have to sit through three debates of the same kind when he deals with the three Houses. That is one prospect that the hon the Minister can look forward to. However, I want to deal in all seriousness with this prospect in the new dispensation. I just do not see how the hon the Minister is going to justify this sort of attitude when he is confronted by the White, the Coloured and the Indian Parliament. Despite our reservations about the new dispensation we have committed ourselves to working within it to try to make it work in the interests of meaningful change in South Africa.

The hon member for De Kuilen talked about our playing a diabolical game but what in fact we are trying to do here is to warn the hon the Minister and to warn his colleagues in the Cabinet that if this sort of attitude persists and if this sort of attitude is going to be indicative of the attitude generally shown by the Government in the new dispensation, then it is going to be very difficult for that new dispensation to get off the ground. One cannot go into a situation like this on the basis of race discrimination and on the basis of racism which is implicit in the attitude of the hon the Minister when he opts for the status quo on a simple issue such as what conditions are going to apply in the SATS. The hon the Minister must deal with this matter and he must think about the situation and the future of South Africa.

In passing I want to point out that the hon the Minister also owes us a reply specifically as to what his attitude was to the Colin Croft affair. He also glossed over that yesterday. What is his attitude to the Colin Croft affair and how is he going to avoid a repetition of that in the future?

There are other issues relating to the SATS which I want to return to and I make no apology for doing so. Firstly I want to refer again to the burden of the uneconomic socio-economic services which continue to cripple the SATS and result in the necessity for recurring tariff and fare increases. The hon the Minister continues to dodge this issue as well. He continues to dodge this issue year after year. There have been references to the problem; there have been references to the urgency of the situation, and year after year the hon the Minister has said that he is discussing this with his colleague, the Minister of Finance. This year when he introduced the Second Reading, he told us that the matter was receiving the attention of the Franzsen Committee. Then the hon the Minister coyly says in his Budget Speech that inasmuch as the State has a commitment in this respect he wishes to remind his colleague the hon the Minister of Finance that Cyrius once said: “He gives twice who gives soon”. He looked coyly at the hon the Minister of Finance when he said this. Here he changes his Dickensian role. Here, instead of acting like the Artful Dodger, he acts like Oliver Twist, who meekly goes to his colleague and asks for more. That is not sufficient, however. The hon the Minister must tell us how long this unsatisfactory state of affairs is going to endure because until the State assumes responsibility for these uneconomic services, most of which are necessitated by the political ideologies of the Government, SATS will continue to have budgetary and financial problems.

The consumer public of South Africa will meanwhile be subject to continued fare and tariff increases to balance the budget. It is a vital matter. The hon the Minister knows it is a vital matter. His department knows it is a vital matter. I said the other day that this hon Minister was a senior Minister of the Cabinet. I want to know why he cannot impress upon his Cabinet colleagues the fact that the SATS cannot function satisfactorily on a financial basis unless and until this problem is properly resolved once and for all. There has to be clarity reached on this issue.

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order No 75.

Sir, I almost thought you said that my time had also expired. I was on the point of rejoicing. Oh, well.

I shall begin by replying to the hon member for Berea. What did I say on Tuesday evening? I said that years ago the then Minister of Transport, Mr Ben Schoeman, said in this House, in the hearing of the present leader of the HNP, Mr Jaap Marais, that South Africa and the NP had to adapt to changing circumstances. He added that a time would come when we could no longer say that only a White person could be a fireman for a locomotive. At the time I said that that was proof that the NP does not stagnate; that is adapts to changing circumstances. The hon member for De Aar has once again spoken about the Black coalman who stokes the locomotive. Nowadays, of course, we may no longer speak about a stoker. It is now a locomotiveman who stokes a train between Colesberg and De Aar. I shall discuss this again shortly.

However, I said on Tuesday evening that the NP was a party that adapted itself, but it does not seek chaos. I said this expressly, and the next day I stated clearly that the NP advocated separate residential areas and separate schools. What has the NP done? It does not seek confrontation. However, the NP has also consulted the Coloureds and the Indians about matters.

Mr Speaker, there sit hon members of the PFP and of the CP. They are the “no” people. They are opposed to everything. However, the NP has always said that it seeks co-operation in South Africa; not confrontation. This entire debate deals with a Transport Services budget of between R7 000 million and R8 000 million. About 75% to 80% of the time spent on this budget has, however, been wasted on politics. Surely I furnished clear replies to all the questions that hon members have put to me. Hon members can go and read what I said. It is recorded in Hansard. However, I repeat that we do not seek chaos. As far as I am able I shall do everything in my power to maintain good relations. However, we are also faced here with the possibility of the crowding-out of minority groups. Must we permit minority groups simply to be trampled upon? This is a very sensitive matter. It affects the poor man, who has to travel by train.

The hon member for Houghton said earlier by way of an interjection that she would not be prepared to travel between Boston and New York on an evening train. She is not prepared to do so, Mr Speaker. I thereupon asked her whether she as a woman would be prepared to catch a train from Cape Town to Mitchell’s Plain at eleven o’clock in the evening. Would she be prepared to undertake such a journey alone? After all, she wants to be protected. [Interjections.]

Mr Speaker, I believe that if we were to permit the minority groups in this country to be crowded out, we should no longer have any right to claim that we were seeking a solution for our problems as far as the protection of minorities is concerned. We are dealing here with masses of people. Some hon members on this side of the House summed up the matter very well and very clearly. We are dealing with two poles that we have to deal with together in one way or another. The NP is not a middle-of-the-road party. The NP is a realistic party, a party with a profound realization of the true problems of South Africa. [Interjections.]

Mr Speaker, what has just happened in the Johannesburg city council election, in the Houghton ward? What happened in Johannesburg only last night? Surely this shows that the PFP is on a slippery slope.

Just see how well the NP has done in Houghton of all places. Just see how we have grown. [Interjections.] After all, a hailstorm can hit the crop of every man.

†The hon member for Port Elizabeth Central said that this was not a realistic budget. If this is not a realistic budget, what is realistic? He told us that next year SATS would produce a R200 million profit. Is that not commendable?

Of course it is to be commended.

Why then criticize me and say that next year SATS will show a R200 million profit?

It will be a demonstration of bad budgeting.

You see, Sir, we do everything we can to get more business and the hon member has criticized us because he says that we will show a profit next year. Stupid! [Interjections.]

The hon member also said that the tariff increases should have been half or less than half of what they are. He said they should have been below 5%. However, we have given our staff a 12% increase in salary and we are also paying more for electricity, for steel and for everything.

The hon member did raise a few points to which we can give consideration. As far as competition with the private sector is concerned, we are all for it. The hon member for Amanzimtoti also referred to it and I shall deal with that matter at a later stage.

*The hon member Dr Welgemoed adopted a very good standpoint in regard to this budget and I want to thank him for his contribution in this regard. He said that transport was politically sensitive, and I recognize that. There is the political part of it when one comes into contact with all the different race groups. I wish we could paint all hon members in this House so that they were not White, so that they could board a train with me where no one knew us and so that they could only hear how the Xhosa speaks to the Zulu and could see the attitude adopted in an overcrowded train to Soweto. These people feel just as we do in this regard. They want to protect what is theirs. For that reason transport is a sensitive matter. When one squeezes a diverse group of people into a compartment there will be at least one man who has a knife. It is this kind of matter that makes the whole issue of transport affairs a sensitive one. Therefore I should like us not to drag this subject into the political arena unnecessarily on all occasions. We undertake 722 million train journeys per annum—thousands every day—and therefore we say that we must deal with this matter with great circumspection.

The CP maintains that I am sacrificing the continued existence of the White man. Can you imagine such rubbish?

It is your whole political dispensation, man. [Interjections.]

This party is seeking a solution for my children and my grandchildren, but those hon members are seeking confrontation and a blood bath in this country. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Amanzimtoti spoke about cross-subsidization, and I agree with him.

I have already referred to the hon member for De Kuilen, and I wish to thank him most sincerely once again.

The hon member for De Aar told us about the case of Mr Van Coller. This is an incident which occurred in December last year and the matter was investigated yesterday. Will a good member of Parliament permit an incident such as this, which occurred on 22 December last year …

It is not in my constituency.

But the hon member spoke about De Aar. [Interjections.] Why then did the hon member raise the matter here? [Interjections.] I cannot understand the chief spokesman of the CP spending more than half of his time in the Third Reading debate on an important matter like the Budget of the SATS on an incident which took place in another person’s constituency. What kind of approach is that? I simply do not understand it. [Interjections.]

The hon member for De Aar also referred to the amount of R200 million. He said that he had read my Hansard and that I had not replied to him. I was in fact replying to an hon member of the official Opposition. I said:

†This was to pay for uneconomic passenger services. I went on to say that the additional direct contribution this year by the hon the Minister of Finance was R200 million, making a total of R605 million.

*That is where the R200 million to which the hon member referred is to be found.

The hon member for De Aar says that diesel locomotives cause certain problems, whereas in the case of electric locomotives one has to have a substation and wiring, and therefore we should revert to steam. If the hon the Minister of Agriculture were to say that we had to plough with mules today …

Did you read the department’s report on the investigation?

A decision was taken on this matter years ago. The Republic of South Africa generates its own electrical power from coal. We have a Koeberg and there are also further developments in the pipeline as far as electric power is concerned. Must we really return to steam when we have a water shortage throughout the country? How can an hon member come and tell me that we should go back to steam? [Interjections.]

The hon member for Berea says that I keep talking about the Franzsen Committee or the service and investment levy and that I do not get to the point of persuading the hon the Minister of Finance. Would the hon member support me and the Cabinet if we were to come up with a proposal that we have a service and investment levy for every passenger loss and that all employers together should pay one-third, all commuters should pay one-third and the State should pay a third?

That is the responsibility of the Government.

That is what the Franzsen Committee proposed. That was the initial proposal, and we referred it back to the Franzsen Committee. In the meantime the Government and I have not let the grass grow under our feet, and this contribution for uneconomic services was increased, in this year of economic recession, by R200 million. I really must defend the hon the Minister of Finance, he did his share. The Cabinet had said to him that he had to help cushion these uneconomic things so that we would not have to cross-subsidize to such an extent. Next year the hon member will again ask me what progress has been made with the Franzsen proposals. I may say to him then that the hon the Minister of Finance has better prospects—that there is an improvement in the gold price, good rains have fallen and our exports have improved—and that he has given me a further R50 million. That is how this works in practice.

The hon member for Umfolozi thanked us for the rapid repair of the damage done to the railway lines in his constituency. He also thanked the hon the Minister of Environment Affairs and Fisheries. The hon member really takes an interest in his constituency. I receive several requests from him concerning his constituency.

The hon member for Berea said that he represented that area in this House 30 years ago. [Interjections.] I do not want to try to be funny now, but I really do not want to stand up in this House one day and say that I represented a certain constituency 30 years ago but am still in the Opposition. [Interjections.] I do at least want promotion over the course of 30 years. If the hon the Prime Minister had not encouraged me now and again and given me a salary increase, then I should really have given up. The hon member for Berea is still just where he was 30 years ago, and he is going to stay there for a long time.

The hon member for Umfolozi spoke to me about the grain silo in Richards Bay. We are encountering problems as regards building an export maize grain silo in Richards Bay, whereas we have one in East London. At one time our country exported maize because we had an annual maize harvest of R14 million tons, whereas our domestic consumption was only 6 to 7 million tons, but due to the drought we have had to import maize over the past two years. We held discussions with the hon the Minister of Agriculture last week, and if we are to implement the Reinecke report correctly, then with a view to the good years that will come again, we may build a grain silo at Richards Bay for supplementary export on a much smaller scale. This year Zambia and Zimbabwe have to import 2 million tons of maize. I believe that in the future South Africa will have such good crops that those countries will not need to import maize from the USA. We also aim our exports at the interior of Africa, because food is power. I believe that we are still going to be blessed with good rains and that our weather will provide us with good maize harvests. However, we must show great circumspection as regards the question of a grain silo at Richards Bay. The hon member also discussed the expansion of accommodation facilities at Richards Bay. Forty-two home ownership scheme houses have already been completed at Richards Bay, whereas a further 40 houses are almost complete. An additional 35 plots have just been purchased and houses will be built on them in the coming financial year. This will be done in terms of the scheme whereby the official becomes the owner of the house. In the case of officials earning a low salary, they will only pay an interest rate of 2% per annum. The hon member also put other questions to me, but I should prefer to convey the answers to him personally. He also asked whether Richards Bay could not be made a system on its own. However, that would not work well and Richards Bay will have to remain a subdivision of the Durban system.

Reference has been made to the fifty years that the Railway Police have been in existence. These people are never in the foreground, but we sleep peacefully while these more than 7 000 police officers look after our safety. We want to convey our sincere thanks to all of them.

I wish to conclude by thanking hon members who have taken part in the debate for their contributions. It has been a long debate and I wonder whether I should not speak to the Whips to see whether the time spent on the debate could not be reduced. What has happened? We have not discussed budget matters. I think that with a view to the new dispensation and extra work that is to be added, we should consider whether we could not spend less time on a matter which is being so well run and has such a good Minister! After all, one need not go into a matter in such detail when one knows that it is in the hands of competent people.

I want to conclude by sincerely thanking Dr Grové, Mr Holz, Mr Johnnie Muller, the Director of the Ministry, and all the other people for everything they are doing. They have a telephone link to the right people in the Administration and when a question is asked here they have the correct answer within a few minutes. What happens now, however, is that by the time they receive the reply, I may already have answered the question, but when I compare it with their information, I was not wrong! [Interjections.] I also want to extend my cordial thanks to the three Commissioners, who are my political advisers, to everyone in the NP and to the leaders of the transport group of the NP, under the chairmanship of the hon member for De Kuilen, for the pleasant spirit in which we were able to co-operate. I also wish to thank all Railway officials, particularly the various staff associations and trade unions, for the co-operation I have had from them when we have faced one another around a table, and for their grasp of our problems. I also wish to convey my sincere thanks to the quarter of a million workers of this fine organization for their devoted service.

Question agreed to.

Bill read a Third Time.

Mr Speaker, when the debate was last adjourned, I was in the process of replying to contributions from hon members during the debate. I dealt with quite a few matters raised by various hon members. I should now like to continue, starting with the hon member for King William’s Town. He also gave his support to the Bill.

†The hon member was perturbed about the fact that we are short of staff to enforce the necessary control measures. It is, of course, a very serious situation if you have to control the introduction of diseases into South African and you do not have sufficient manpower to do so.

*The hon member also knows, as I do—in fact, he also mentioned it—but one must have specially qualified people to help with this service. I want to reiterate that at present we have 545 posts, of which 98 are vacant. I am now referring to livestock inspector posts, people who are used to do the field-work. I want to assure the hon member that, like him, I am also concerned about this, but I want to assure him that we shall be doing everything in our power to augment these numbers.

†The hon member made a very interesting remark regarding careers for people interested in agriculture who can never become farmers because they do not have the land. This is a career in which a man who is interested in farming and animal husbandry can really come into his own right. I agree with him and I think it is necessary that we work in that direction.

I also agree with the hon member that we should do more recruiting amongst our urban population to see if we cannot get more people interested in this line of work.

He also mentioned the co-operation between the national states and the Republic. I think I dealt with that adequately the last time I replied.

*The hon member for Mooi River also raised the matter of liaison with our neighbours. I have already dealt with that. It is an important aspect of the overall control of livestock diseases. We must not simply look at the animals that come into the country, but also at animals inside those states. We must carry out inspections there and place officers there to monitor the situation.

†He also mentioned the fact that we have too few stock inspectors. The hon members for Prieska and Pietermaritzburg North also referred to this. He then mentioned the TB school and the brucillosis scheme. The TB Scheme he said was a sound investment, but that the brucillosis scheme required more active steps.

*The hon member for Fauresmith showed a keen interest in this Bill and also referred to two diseases, brucillosis and mastitis. Brucillosis is a very dangerous disease because people are also susceptible. To my knowledge, even veterinarians are in danger of contracting the disease. The treatment of brucillosis in human beings is a very difficult process. Recently I visited Allerton, our institute in Natal, and I understand that they are making very good progress in the treatment of brucillosis in human beings. Since human beings are susceptible to brucillosis, since as early as 1969 all cattle farmers have been required to immunize all heifer-calves between the ages of three and 10 months against brucillosis. This compulsory immunization did not have the desired results, however, and consequently a brucillosis eradication scheme was introduced during 1979. Participation in that scheme, in terms of which cows above the age of 18 months were tested and positive reactors identified, was voluntary. Approximately 1 million cows are tested annually in terms of this scheme. During 1982-83 slightly more than 25 000 positive cases were found, whilst the figure for 1983-84—according to the latest figures available to me—is estimated at an alarming 30 000. In other words, the number of positive cases has increased. Maybe that is what is really worrying the hon member for Mooi River and the hon member for Fauresmith.

Owing to the financial implications for the State if all positive reactors were to be slaughtered and compensation paid, such animals are merely branded and the relevant participants advised to get rid of them in the most beneficial way possible. As a quid pro quo for the services in terms of the scheme, vaccine is supplied free of charge to the participants, and since 1979 vaccine is offered to everyone free of charge. In the light of the fact that a heifer-calf immunized against brucillosis reacts positively to the relevant tests for a period of six to eight months, it is important that they are not immunized after the age of 11 months, since this influences the test results. So as to ensure to a large extent that heifers above this age are not immunized, the provision of brucillosis vaccine is limited to State veterinarians, livestock inspectors and, of course, private veterinarians. It is a vaccination programme that one has to handle very carefully. By obtaining specific information about the herd in which the vaccine is to be used when the vaccine is issued, the number of doses needed to immunize the heifer-calves in that herd can be determined with a fair degree of accuracy. The officers and veterinarians can then also furnish the relevant farmers with the necessary information regarding handling, storage and medication.

As in the case of any other factory, sometimes things do go wrong with the manufacturing of the vaccine. Owing to the dangers inherent in the use of faulty vaccines, particularly in the case of viruses, the relevant vaccines must then be destroyed. Inevitably temporary shortage of the relevant kinds of vaccine then occur. Such shortages are then, where at all possible, supplemented by important vaccines. Brucillosis vaccine can be kept for up to two years if stored at 4°C. Livestock owners can therefore make provision, long before the time, for the quantity of vaccine they need, particularly in the case of beef cattle, when specific calving programmes are adopted. With proper planning, and by making timely provision for sufficient vaccine, livestock owners need not be put off their stride by such temporary storages.

At the end of his speech the hon member for Caledon said …

Mr Speaker, I should like to ask the hon the Minister a question before he moves away from the subject of contagious brucillosis. Is his department prepared to take action in regard to the unscrupulous auctioneers, to whom I referred in my speech earlier, who are moving in and acting on behalf of breeders who have contaminated herds for sale and who are actually removing the positive reactors from the infected herd and leaving behind the negative reactors and are allowing these animals to go up for public auction and to be distributed throughout the country? This is one of the problems I am worried about.

I can tell the hon member that I intended dealing with that question, but seeing that he has brought it up let me deal with it now. This of course is a rather difficult question. I think organized agriculture must identify these unscrupulous auctioneers and warn its members against them. I do however want to tell the hon member that I have made a note of this problem and that I intend asking my department to look into the matter.

*I was saying that at the end of his speech the hon member for Caledon stated that he hoped it would not be necessary to prosecute many people. I want to agree with him. I have already indicated what the brucillosis schemes entail. If we obtain the co-operation of producers across the entire wide spectrum of livestock disease control we should from the very nature of the case, have very few prosecutions. I want to join the hon member for Caledon in expressing the hope that it will be unnecessary for us to take people by the scruff of the neck and force them to do certain things.

I just want to come back, for a moment, to the question of mastitis which the hon member for Fauresmith raised.

†However, before I do that let me say the hon member for Mooi River also asked me why I intend amending clause 32. If he does not mind, I will deal with that in the Committee Stage. I will give him a full explanation then.

*A committee has been appointed to investigate the mastitis problem in the Republic. A comprehensive report has not yet been issued, but the laboratories are, even now, performing a major task in this connection. I want to refer once again to the veterinarian institute at Allerton in Natal. By the way, for the benefit of hon members in Natal let me say that this institute is the oldest of its kind in the country. It is even older than Onderstepoort. At this institute exceptionally good work is being done, and it was my privilege to pay a visit to the institute recently, specifically to take a closer look at the whole question of mastitis. In Natal, even now, there are 20 000 cows incorporated in the investigation and treatment of the mastitis problem. As soon as full particulars are known, a report on, and recommendations for, the possible solution of the problem will be submitted and considered, The introduction of a scheme for combating mastitis, however, is being shelved, in the first place owing to a lack of funds and, secondly, owing to a shortage of manpower.

The hon member for Prieska really gave us an informative lecture, regaling us with an extremely interesting speech. It attested to an extensive and searching knowledge of the whole matter. He referred to the value of our livestock and to the tremendous dividends we obtain from a relatively small input, if we compare this with the value of our livestock. He also referred, amongst other things, to our staff situation, to the controlled diseases, to the achievements of the Division of Veterinary Services, to the implementation of the Act and to livestock inspections, and he even spoke of liaison with countries abroad and the role of the veterinarian. It was a real pleasure to listen to the hon member. He actually made it possible for me to skip many of these matters, and I thank him for that.

†The last speaker in the Second Reading debate was the hon member for Bezuidenhout. I do not know whether the hon member was really interested in the essence of this Bill or whether he was merely interested in a certain portion of it. I gather that he is interested mainly in so far as he is personally involved.

I am interested in the farmers of Malmesbury.

I think the hon member is more interested in the export of ham than in the farmers of Malmesbury.

I shall take that up during the Committee Stage.

Does he export ham? [Interjections.]

The hon member may object to himself eating pork but not to others eating pork.

This Bill provides for the control over everything being moved from outside the Republic to inside the Republic. It does not provide for control over things going out of the Republic. The hon member is concerned that the Bill does not provide for control measures in regard to items going out of the country.

*If, however, we were to make provision for control measures in regard to products leaving the country, we would be amending the entire principle of the Act, because this legislation deals with restrictive measures in regard to products entering the country and not products leaving the country. The hon member has indicated that he intends to move an amendment on clause 1 in the Committee Stage.

†However, I am of the opinion that we will not be able to discuss that amendment because it involves a new principle, but I will of course accept the ruling of the Chair when it comes up for discussion in the Committee Stage.

*Apparently the hon member does not know, in spite of all the assurances we in South Africa have given the USA in regard to the control of disease, that they simply do not want to accept our certificates. The EEC countries, however, are prepared to accept our certificates, because our veterinary services are held in such high regard. The USA knows that our diseases are zoned.

†That is one of the things the hon member asked for, namely that we should apply zones. However, we have zoning. We have zoning for foot-and-mouth disease.

It is in the regulation.

Well, then why is he going on about it? [Interjections.] We do, after all, have zoning. We have areas where swine plague is prevalent and we have determined the areas in which foot-and-mouth disease is prevalent.

Where is the swine plague prevalent?

At present swine plague is prevalent in the north. The lines have been drawn and the Americans know this, but in spite of that they do not want to accept our bona fides.