I move—

I do not think it necessary to explain the motion. As there are no select committees sitting hon. members are mostly disengaged in the morning and I should like to do something. Moreover we hope to finish to-morrow week, and therefore we think we might take the mornings. The original intention was to meet at half-past ten, but hon. members opposite approached me with a request to make it eleven o’clock. I am quite prepared to meet hon. members. I do not want to bother the House, but it is clear that the hon. members find the mornings hanging on their hands, and we think we can appropriate them. I am, therefore, suggesting eleven o’clock instead of half-past ten as stated in the original motion.

Mr. BRINK seconded.

Motion put and agreed to.

I think that I shall probably expedite the debate if I reply at once upon a number of points raised last night, and I want to commence with a number of remarks by hon. members, especially from the Northern Transvaal with regard to district surgeons. Then want to know if more could not be done to provide medical help for the population in the far-off districts who live far away from doctors. The hon. member for Zoutpansberg (Mr. Vorster) stated last night that district surgeon was not the correct title for the kind of work these doctors do, as they do not actually work in the districts, but according to his own experience they are chiefly used in his district for making post-mortem examinations. He therefore concluded that justice is not being done especially to the countryside population. I mention the remarks of this hon. member especially to make it clear that there is apparently a very great misunderstanding in his case and in that of a large number of members of Parliament—not to speak of the general public—with regard to the work of district surgeons and about the task the State has taken on its shoulders in that connection. The district surgeons are certainly not there to treat at Government expense the public in their districts, and every man that is poor and goes to them. If that is expected I can quite understand the disappointment. The district surgeon must confine himself in his work to the instructions of the magistrate. He cannot treat people gratis unless he does so at his own expense, except upon the instructions of the magistrate. The district surgeons are there to do Government work; that is what they are appointed and paid for and not to medically treat the public in general. Included in his work is the making of post-mortems so that he can give scientific evidence before the court, the treatment of the police and their families and of prisoners in the gaols, and in some cases to visit certain institutions which come directly under Government control, such as institutions under the Children’s Protection Act and also people who are called “paupers” in the law. These are people who are not merely poor, but who get their food and clothing from the State, and to whom the Government also supplies medical attendance. If the district surgeons went outside the limit prescribed by law, for which they are paid, they do so at their own expense. To meet the existing needs of the poorer class to some extent certain arrangements have been made between the Health Department and the Administration. The medical treatment of poor people is charitable work, and it rests on the shoulders of the Provincial Administration and not on the central Government. That is laid down in the Constitution. Now there is an arrangement between the Union Government and the Provincial Administration, with regard to such charitable work which falls outside the duties of a district surgeon, according to which the Government will pay for them but will in turn be repaid the expenditure by the Provincial Administration. It thus depends on the Provincial Administration how far the district surgeons can go beyond their ordinary duties in treating poor people at the cost of the Provincial Administration. It may be a very good thing to put all the medical attention which is given to the poor and the public to the charge of the Union Government, but if Parliament adopts that principle then the vote on the Estimates for this head will look very different every year. It will not cost thousands of pounds more, but hundreds of thousands. That principle has not been adopted by Parliament. If hon. members want to advocate it, well and good, but I stand for the position that the principle has not yet been accepted and that I must keep within the confines of the law. If the principle is accepted, the vote will not only look quite different, but the taxpayers will have to pay for it if everybody can summon the district surgeon to his home gratis. This will not only occur in the case of blackwater fever, but in the case of ordinary colds.

Only in the case of the needy.

Still the district surgeon will have to travel long distances for an ordinary cold, and the State will have to pay for it. As for the position in the northern Transvaal, may I say that it is receiving the careful consideration of the Government. Parts of these areas are suffering badly from fever and we therefore feel that special provision must be made there. That is the reason why the northern Transvaal in respect of the appointment of district surgeons was treated considerably better in relation to the appointment of district surgeons in proportion to the area and population than any other part of the country. Secondly in an Act which we passed a few years ago special provision was made for those areas. A system was introduced by which a district surgeon under his agreement could be compelled to visit out stations at regular times and to treat the general public there, and he was obliged in the event of his expenses to that place being paid in order to meet the people in the neighbourhood thereof, to charge them as if that were his headquarters. That is a considerable provision for the needs of people in the far-off districts. The appointment of additional district surgeons is urged but the system I have already mentioned was introduced for the very reason of making more district surgeons unnecessary. The areas which are benefited by that system are not very densely populated and there are a large number of poor people there, so that if we appoint district surgeons there we shall have to pay them larger salaries than those in other parts of the country. It will be very expensive. The present system is cheaper and about as effective as it now exists and is being extended. Hon. members will see that provision is made in the Estimates for doubling the expenditure in carrying out this system.

Many thanks.

I beg to reply to the remarks of the hon. member for Barberton (Col. D. Reitz) in connection with malaria. I also wish to take the opportunity of making a statement with regard to malaria which I promised the hon. member in reply to a question. First of all I wish to deal with a very serious outbreak of malaria in certain parts of the country, especially on the borders of Basutoland and Zululand and in certain parts of Natal. I think I can do no better than read a portion of the report which I received from the chief medical officer of health with regard to that outbreak. He said—

The type of disease was for the most part ordinary sub-tertian, but there was a proportion of severe cases with a tendency to affect the brain and nervous system. The prevalence continued with some spread to the parts of the Umsinga, Lower Umfolosi and Krantzkop districts, until the onset of cold weather about the middle of June; thereafter there were very few new infections, but a considerable number of relapses. Detailed and reliable particulars as to the number of cases and deaths are not yet available, but an emissary of the “Natal Mercury ” who toured the area puts the deaths at about 3,000 natives and Europeans; this is probably somewhat exaggerated, but it is clear that there was considerable mortality. The Government is distributing tonic pills and other remedies to convalescents in the native reserves, etc. Komatipoort, a railway junction on the Portuguese Border, is a notorious malarial locality, with a population of about 150 Europeans—a large proportion of whom are railway employees, with their wives and families. During May last a virulent epidemic of malaria occurred, with a large percentage of cases of blackwater fever—a condition which is apt to follow repeated attacks of virulent malaria. About half the population was affected, with 10 or 12 deaths amongst Europeans in the village and neighbourhood, including Dr. Lownds (district surgeon and railway medical officer). An important causative factor in this outbreak was the neglect of precautions recommended by the Health Department to the railway Administration and other authorities concerned, namely, the canalisation of a spruit which runs through the village, mosquito-proofing of dwellings and keeping the vicinity of dwellings and a zone around the village clear of bush and rank vegetation. Although these outbreaks during the past malarial season and the outbreak in the Rustenburg and other districts in the northern Transvaal during the previous season (1927-’28) have attracted much attention from the press and the public, they are merely temporary manifestations or symptoms of a chronic and very serious national disease. That was the particular outbreak in the area which has been affected in recent months, but perhaps I should just state a few further remarks in regard to the combating of this disease which, if we overcome successfully, will mean a great deal to South Africa and to our country. We must not forget that the area which is subject to a prevalence of malaria is a very large one. These areas include some of the most fertile parts of the country and if we could redeem these parts of South Africa for the occupation of Europeans it would, be tantamount to the extension of our country and the annexation of a few towns. The position with regard to malaria has been considered very carefully. In November last I took steps to call together a small conference of experts in this matter. That conference included a gentleman connected with the staff of General Gorgas who was responsible for the eradication of malaria in the Panama zone and it was carried out with complete success. That conference made use of experience gathered in various parts of the world in regard to the disease. The conclusion of the conference can be summarized in this way, the conference did not see any great advantage in the more extensive use of such remedies as quinine. They say if is a palliative but it affects the symptoms and not the disease. Where the symptoms disappear that does not prevent a patient being a carrier, of the disease to others. The Government supplied a remedy to all patients who were not able to pay. As I said just now there is a whole net-work in the system of this distribution, and we only ask for payment in cases where a patient is in a position to pay. In the conference it was decided a good deal could still be done if we want to combat malaria satisfactorily, by way of further research. It has been carried out in other parts of the world but that does not help us very much because the circumstances of the country are peculiar. It has been done under the direction and with the co-operation of the Department of Public Health for the last few years and we have made a very valuable malarial survey of the Union which is not yet completed. This survey has given us very valuable results and we know more now about the mosquito which carried the malaria and this assists us considerably in combating the disease, On the estimates provision is made for this research work, among others, by a sum of £2,500 per annum towards the upkeep and assistance of the Institute of Medical Research. And this research is being prosecuted successfully. The further result of this conference is the conclusion come to that the chief efforts of the Government in the combating of this disease must be to prevent it. Most of the measures we take must be concentrated on prevention, not exclusively on cure. Now one of the ways in which malaria can he successfully combatted in the areas is by educating the people to take the necessary precautionary measures and one of the chief is in connection with hulking their dwellings mosquito-proof. The day must come when the Department of Lands—when that department allots arty land in areas which are malaria land—must lay down a condition that the person must make his dwelling On that land mosquito-proof.

How about natives?

There our chief difficulty comes in. We have had some experience in certain parts of Zululand and Komatipoort. Extensive use is made of native health visitors who can be procured at very small expense, as we find that if we Use the more educated type of native, they are of very valuable assistance to Government in spreading information to other natives and getting them to adopt the necessary precautionary measures. On the other hand, we found that Inyngas were hostile to the Government, and there is no doubt that they belong, to a very-large extent, to the most ignorant type of native. An amusing story is told of one of them in connection with a recent outbreak of malaria in Natal. A native was on the point of death and he was treated by an Inynga, the remedy being water from a locomotive engine, mixed with broken pieces of an old gramophone record ground to dust. The idea was that the water would make the patient grow and the gramophone dust make him talk. The most remarkable thing of all was, the man got well, and the result is that gramophone records have disappeared in a most mysterious way throughout Zululand. The conference to which I have alluded recommended that we should appoint a very small special staff under the Department of Health to deal with malaria, this staff to consist of a medical officer with two assistants of the sanitary inspector type. The idea was that these men should devote all their time and energy to malaria, when the disease was epidemic, and at other times they should occupy themselves in carrying out educational work among the natives. They can visit the schools, for instance, and instruct the teachers what information they have on the subject to drill into the pupils, so that when the latter grow Up they will learn to take the precautionary measures that are required. There was some difficulty at the beginning because the Government was not quite sure that the work would be undertaken by the present staff. I asked the Public Service Commission to go into the matter, and they reported that the staff at our disposal could not do the work. For that reason it has been decided to appoint this small specialized staff. I now Come to the other points that were raised last night. The hon. member for Griqualand (Mr. Gilson) asked why £15,000 were placed oh the estimates for the general election, and expressed the view that that might be a sign of tardy repentance on the part of the Government—I do not know for what, perhaps because they won the last election. I do not think there is anything that we on this side of the House need be repentant about. When the general election comes round again I do hot think we have anything to lose. The amount on the present estimates is for the last general election, as the estimates now before us cover not only the future but the whole period of the current financial year,, which began on April 1st last. The hon. member asked a, further question in connection with the repatriation policy, and he pointed out that for the assisted immigration of Indians, £15,000 less is asked oh the estimates than was asked last year, and he wanted an explanation. My reply is that the £85,000 which was asked for last year was merely a rough estimate. We had very little to go upon when we asked that money from Parliament, and riot the whole of the money was used, so that £70,000 is the modified estimate. That is really the reason. In connection with this matter of assisted immigration, it is certainly not right, and certainly too early to speak of the results of the scheme, and to call it a failure. It is certainly not a failure.

It is a wonderful success, according to you.

The scheme came into operation only in August, 1927, barely 18 months ago, and under the assisted immigration scheme no fewer than between 6,000 and 7,000 Indians have left the country; certainly a very much larger number than ever left the country under other conditions. As far as the numbers from month to month are concerned, only last December a higher figure was reached than was ever reached before in connection with repatriation.

They are beginning to return.

The hon. member must have information which I have not had.

You gave it in reply to the question I put the other day.

The result of that question was to show that only four Indians have returned, tf we get rid of between six and seven thousand Indians and only four have returned, I will ask hon. members whether the scheme is worth while or not. Of course, it was foreseen some would return, but I stated with the greatest emphasis that it was the opinion of the department and of the Indian Government that those returning would not be more than 5 per cent. Even though we thought 5 per cent, might return we thought the scheme was worth while, and those who have returned so far are not even a ½ per cent. I am not a prophet, and hon. members opposite have shown they are not prophets either, but in any case their prophecies with regard to this matter have so far been falsified.

Wait and see.

Well, let us wait and see then. There has been, in the last few months, a drop in the immigration figures. That is undoubted, but is due partly to the monsoon period and partly to conditions in South Africa itself, because I think it was the harvesting season in connection with the sugar plantations which always affects immigration to some extent, and undoubtedly, too, there has been in recent months in this country, an active propaganda against immigration on the part of a section of the Indians belonging to the so-called Indian Federation. With regard to that propaganda, if it goes on, the whole position may become very serious, and I do not think these Indians who agitate against the immigration scheme are doing any good to their own compatriots in this country. They certainly assist in that indirect way in any anti-Indian feeling there may be in the country. There is no doubt about that, and I hope these Indians will fully realize that fact. But I may say that the Government of India is actively doing its duty in connection with this matter, to remove any misapprehension that may have arisen in the minds of Indians. I may also say that the representative of the Government of India in this country is doing the same; so there is no complaint so far as that is concerned.

What class of Indians are leaving?

All classes, but mostly Indians belonging to the labouring class. The hon. member has further asked whether in the forthcoming election for the Senate it would be possible to have an election by proxy. My reply is that under the regulations which are drawn up under the South Africa Act by the Governor-General-in-Council, voting by proxy is only possible in connection with the filling of a vacancy in the Senate, and when Parliament is in session. As far as the general election is concerned, as we are going to have now, that general election must take place on the same date in all four provinces. I can further say nothing more than this, that as far as I can judge we will have the election of the Senate during the course of September, but as soon as possible after the Senate has been dissolved we will issue the proclamation fixing upon the date. I go on to the remarks of the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (North) (Mr. Deane). The hon. member points out that in Natal there have been few successes, as he says, at the, examinations held under the auspices of the Public Service Commission for entrance into the civil service. He asks whether it would not be possible to make a modification to make the requirements, as far as a knowledge of Afrikaans is concerned, easier for Natal than for the rest of the country, and he says if we could do that it would bring sunshine into the hearts of members for Natal, and Natal generally. All I can say is I have often heard it said that Natal was a land of sunshine and shadow. I never expected to hear that from the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (North). In any case, I cannot contribute, unfortunately, in the way he suggests to the dispelling of that darkness. I think it would be wrong in principle, and I think it would be a bad day for South Africa, if we laid down a different standard for entrance into the civil service for different parts of the country and for different races. The principle we have been acting upon is to lay down one standard for all. If the hon. member insists that a different standard, so far as the knowledge of Afrikaans is concerned, should be laid down for Natal, why should we not lay down a different standard so far as a knowledge of English is concerned, for a large part of the country where Dutch-speaking young men and women have very little opportunity to hear or practice the use of English? If we make concessions in the one direction surely a concession must also be made in the other direction, but what would be the result of that? It would be impossible to draw the line and we should have grievances from the one end of the country to the other. I think the correct thing is for all sections of the population to accept loyally the principle of bilingualism as far as the civil service is concerned in this country, and to insist that the children, right from the beginning, should attend school and learn as well as possible, both languages. Dutch-speaking South Africans, as far as I know, even in very outlying rural districts where English is seldom heard, have never asked for concessions so far as the knowledge of English is concerned. If they do ask we are not going to grant that concession, and if we do not do it in one direction it would be wrong to do it in another. Further, I come to the remarks of the hon. member for Yeoville (Mr. Duncan), who pointed out that some passages of the report which had been published by the commissioner of mental hygiene were rather disquieting when it is said that owing to financial stringency there has been economy which cannot be justified. He fastens that on the responsibility of the Government. All I can say is that it is the first time I hear that a report of that nature is issued on the understanding that everything said in it has been considered and approved by the Government. The whole intention of that report is to give an expert like the commissioner of mental hygiene an opportunity by way of the report to state his views to Parliament and the country generally. It certainly has not the approval beforehand of the Government. It was not so in our day, and certainly was not so in the day of the hon. gentleman himself when he was Minister of the Interior. If he seems to suggest that the Government should spend more on account of this having been said in the report, on the mental hygiene of the country and in connection with mental hospitals, that is an altogether new note being sounded in connection with this in Parliament. I have always been criticized year after year for a big increase in the vote and whether it is worth while to spend so much on the unfit. But he seems to suggest now that we must spend more in this connection. If that is so, all I can say is that it seems as if the financial responsibility, which we often saw and were glad to see on the other side when Mr. Jagger sat over there, is being weakened now. I can further point out that, as the hon. gentleman will see, we are not standing still, but it is certainly no small measure that we should increase this particular vote of which he complains by no less than £28,000 above what was voted last year on the main and on the supplementary estimates together; £45,000 more than voted on the main estimates last year. I think that cannot be described as doing nothing in this direction. But most members of Parliament will perhaps complain that it is doing too much. The hon. member has also raised a point in connection with the maintenance grants for child welfare, and the first remark he made was that if the money which is voted is well administered it might be sufficient, and he suggests it can only be well administered if we perhaps consult more fully the child welfare societies in the country. I will be the first in this House to acknowledge the great value to us of the child welfare societies in our administration. They are doing a great work and are of great assistance to the country; but on the other hand I must say that they bear no financial responsibility whatever, and for that reason we ought to be very careful with regard to the requests which are being made by these societies to the Government from time to time. In connection with the circular which he mentioned I may say that such a circular was mentioned, and there are very good reasons for that; in the first place, the hon. member I do not think can have any objection to the conditions attached or the promise which is being exacted, because the type of child for which mothers’ pensions are asked is the type that would have been committee by a magistrate owing to the circumstances under which it lives, where it is known that the main or only factor in that case was the extreme poverty of the mother. If the mothers’ pension system had not been introduced these children would have fallen under the ordinary category of children assisted by a magistrate. In principle there can be no objection, but further it is not the idea to make use of such a condition to take away these children; it is only a safeguard in case some of these children who are growing up cannot get the education especially necessary for that type of child. The Government to-day has under its control a large number of institutions where, especially for that type of child, industrial education is given, and it is clearly a safeguard in particular cases to get them into industrial schools at a later stage.

It is a condition that excludes the better class of motherhood.

I think the best class of mothers would gladly give up her child for it to get education at an industrial school.

*The hon. member for Potchefstroom (the Rev. Mr. Fick) asked in connection with the institution at Witrand why the patients were mixed, i.e., why there were feeble-minded and mental defectives. Then the hon. member mentioned Fort Napier, and said that according to the Estimates it was a similar institution to that at Witrand. I want to point out to the hon. member that the statement that Fort Napier is an institution for feeble-minded is a printer’s error. It is not so, but is only an institution for mental defectives and natives. As for Witrand, it is not a fact that at present the patients are still mixed there. It used to be so, but only because there was not sufficient room for mental defectives, and Witrand was not filled with weak-minded. Fort Napier was opened for mental defectives, and at present there are only feeble-minded patients at Witrand. Then the hon. member asked if we could not provide for the physically deformed. The reply is that it comes under the Provincial Administration. It is philanthropic work and ordinary philanthropic work does not come under the Government. Then the hon. member for Potgietersrust (The Rev. Mr. Naude) asked something about the hospital at Bochem and complained about the allowances of pay of the head and of the nurse being too small. I just want to say this, that on enquiry the hon. member will find that this payment is merely a subsidy. The institution is not in the ordinary sense of the word a Government one. It is merely an arrangement entered into with the management of it because they give considerable help in the treatment of venereal disease, which is very bad in that area, and also in the treatment of malaria. Those allowances are given on a fixed basis. They are doing very good work there, but it is not necessary to increase the grants. Then I just wish to add that the district surgeon at Pietersburg visits the place from time to time, but we are considering the appointment of a residential district surgeon there. I think that will greatly contribute to improving the position of the institution and of making better provision for that district.

The Minister has given the House some information of a conference which was held in connection with anti-malarial treatment, at which certain recommendations have been made. We are all pleased that some more effective steps are to be taken in connection with the treatment of malaria, but we want more anti-malarial measures than those hitherto agreed to. The conference stated that quinine is not to be relied upon to the extent to which it is to-day, and yet I have here the general report of the malarial commission appointed by the League of Nations, and they say that quinine is a specific remedy protective against certain phases, but does not always prevent new infection. They state, however, that it is nevertheless unsurpassed among available remedies, and therefore quinine treatment is the principle item in the malarial programme of any country. When this epidemic occurred recently in northern Natal and southern Zululand, no effective steps had been taken by the department to explain to the natives exactly how quinine should be taken. I have a statement from a man on the spot. He said that natives were dying by hundreds, and the Minister admits there were probably 3,000 deaths. That is a very serious state of affairs. Regarded from an economic point of view, the spending of a larger sum on informing the natives how to deal with the disease is worth the consideration of the Government. He goes on to say that the natives admit that their own medicine men failed in their treatment. In some of the native kraals all the inhabitants suffered. The few who, by chance, in their bewilderment, did buy quinine, had no knowledge of quantities or treatment, and invariably took too much or not enough. They persisted in going outside to lie in the breeze as soon as perspiration took place. Pneumonia was contracted by some, others succumbed through taking too much quinine, and some suffered through not taking enough. According to the Malarial Commission of the League of Nations, each country should establish an observation station in the malarial belt. The commission also recommends the establishment in each country of a laboratory. I have a resolution from the Zululand Farmers’ Union on this subject, in which the union urges the necessity for better organization in the native reserves. It suggests that the correct treatment of malaria be taught in the native schools, and that more assistance be given to the native hospitals in which native nurses are trained. The native hospital at Empangeni is the only hospital on the coast of Zululand for the treatment of natives. It has come under the Government, and we have had difficulty in getting funds for it. Another recommendation is that in order to cope with further outbreaks, measures be taken at the beginning of each malarial season to deal with stagnant pools in or near native kraals, and that a commission be appointed to go into the question of preventive measures. A further recommendation is that a system be evolved for the registration of births and deaths. Natives are born and die without our knowing anything whatever about them, and it is time at this day in the history of the Union that we should adopt a better method of registering births and deaths in native reserves. One of the things this League of Nations Commission laid particular stress upon is that the knowledge attained in one country is not always reliable in regard to the treatment of malaria in another country. It says that each country, and to a more limited extent each locality, must work out its own salvation in this matter, and suggests that it should do so in a greater degree than has hitherto been the case. The commission lays stress on the establishment in each country of a central malarial research organization in close touch with public health workers in their own country who have to deal with malaria. It goes on to suggest an observation station in the malarial belt itself as well as a central research, station at Pretoria. I commend that recommendation, because if it were properly carried out, it would go far to combat the epidemic before it occurs. With regard to the attacking of the breeding places of the mosquito in South Africa, the Governments of the States of South America have done this by mixing Paris green with dust and spraying the mixture into the atmosphere. In this way they are able to deal with the breeding places of mosquitoes over a considerable area of land.

I move—

I have moved this reduction in order to deal with the question of housing. I think no excuse is needed for again raising this question in view of the importance of the matter over all the Union. It is a problem in almost every city in South Africa to-day. When in 1920 the subject was first broached an Act was passed by Parliament and the Labour party was able to exert a great deal of influence on that legislation. To-day, unfortunately, the Labour party as an effective machine has been destroyed, but the ideal which it had been trying to carry out has permeated all parties in this House, and members coming from every part of the country. We have had a discussion on this recently in the House, with members of all parties taking part. I think that it is desirable that certain remarks made by the Minister should not pass in this House unchallenged. I have said that the matter has been dealt with on a non-party basis, and I was rather surprised at the Minister attacking the Cape Town press for the manner in which they had touched on the question. I think the papers in this town are worthy of commendation for what they did. Whatever may be our difference of opinion with these newspapers, on this matter they have carried out the discussion without party consideration. The Minister indicated that his mind was travelling in a certain direction, and he submitted three thoughts to the House, that the matter would have to be dealt with by private enterprise, and not by the State; then, by way of a sub-economic arrangement and a sub-economic rate of interest. Without any disparagement I say that the Minister has always very strong views on matters, and when he has made up his mind, it is very difficult to shift him. I fear that his thoughts may develop into ideas, and his ideas be hardened into convictions. Once that has taken place there is the danger of the Minister dealing with the matter regardless of other views or opinions. I would, therefore, like the Minister to say during this debate, definitely, what he intends further to do as far as he is concerned, and as far as the Government is concerned in the direction of developing the ideas which he has adumbrated. I should like to deal with these various points. First, the Minister suggests that this is a matter which will have to he dealt with by private initiative. We wonder whether he had the consent of the Minister of Labour, or whether he was speaking without having indicated to that Minister that he was adumbrating a theory with which the Minister of Labour will wholly disagree, even though he may not express it. In my opinion, without being wedded to any theory in connection with the matter, and guided by the general experience, not only in this country, but in other countries, as far as the housing of the poor is concerned, private enterprise has completely failed. I am not here to blame anyone. The private individual will naturally invest his money in directions where that money shall be secure and give him a good return. The Minister has himself hinted at certain reasons which deter private enterprise from providing houses for the poor. That being the case, it is wrong for the Minister on a matter of such vital importance to the well-being of the country, even to talk of shifting the onus from the Government to private enterprise or even to the municipalities or provincial councils. This is a national question, and not one affecting merely Cape Town or the other large towns. Overcrowding and slums result in deteriorating the physique and efficiency of the people, and also result in the deaths of thousands of children who might otherwise grow up into useful citizens. If the Minister calls for a return from the medical officers of health he will find the same conditions here that prevail overseas. The medical officer of health for Glasgow reports that for every child who dies in a rich district of that city three children die in the poorer quarters. From the national point of view of saving the lives of the children of this country the Minister should not even think of placing the onus on private enterprise or the municipalities, but he should definitely say that this affects the well-being of the nation, and that the Government must assume the responsibility, even although in so doing it may he opposed to theories which are freely held. The Minister has suggested that one way of helping to relieve the position would he by means of diluting the building trade with a certain proportion of lower paid men. Perhaps he got that idea from the Minister of Defence, who asked the late Minister of Public Works that the minimum rate of pay on Government contracts should not apply to work for the department of the Minister of Defence.

When was this?

The statement was never denied by the Minister of Defence. In any case whether one looks at the matter from the trades unions’ or employers’ point of view the principle adumbrated is an exceedingly dangerous one, and will not assist in solving the housing problem. It is dangerous to suggest that we should subsidize the erection of private houses by allowing builders to utilize cheaper labour than is at present employed. For one thing we do not know that it is the cost of building which in any way affects the shortage of houses for poor people. The chairman of the Industrial Building Council on the Rand definitely objects to reducing the standard of pay by means of dilution or anything of that kind. What I am afraid of is that instead of raising the standard of living the proposals will result in lowering the standard of pay, for, whilst the employer who believes in maintaining decent conditions will continue to give standard wages, the bad employer would benefit by a Government subsidy, because he would have an opportunity of utilizing cheaper labour and thereby competing unfairly with the good employer, and the advantage, instead of going to the tenant in the shape of reduced rents, would probably find its way into the pockets of the bad employer in the shape of increased profits. As to the further suggestion of a sub-economic rate of interest for building loans, what would probably happen would he that the advantage would go to the building contractor and the State would he uselessly spending money without doing anything tangible in the direction of solving this question. Before the Minister commits himself to action on the lines he has suggested, an impartial investigation should be made into the whole question of national housing. The Minister of Mines has just appointed a commission to deal with mining matters. I think the present House is inclined to look at big problems from a national and not a Nationalist point of view, and it is only when Parliament starts indulging in party arguments that we got to the state we reached the other day when we simply had racialism running rampant in this House. I am sure that all sections in the House are anxious that the subject should be grappled with in a sane manner—a manner which will redound to the credit of both Parliament and people. I believe that the majority of people are in favour of the matter being disposed of not from a party point of view but on the lines of social reform and sane South Africanism. Therefore I urge upon the Minister before he starts drafting his Bill, to appoint a strong and impartial commission to consider the whole question and report to the House next session, so that when an amended Bill is submitted, it will not be party but national legislation.

The Minister has stated that it is impossible to discharge the local bodies of the burden resting on them in connection with the prevention of contagious disease and to bring it under the district surgeon, but I want to urge him to reconsider the matter. I want to point out to the Minister that it is very difficult for the local bodies to carry that burden and the burden in the Cape is especially a heavy one which falls on the shoulders of the local taxpayers. In this respect there is this difference between the Provinces because in the Cape we have Divisional councils which do not exist in the other Provinces. The result is that the village and district in the Cape have to accept the responsibility while in the other Provinces it is a Provincial matter and the prevention is done out of funds of the Provincial Administration so that the burden is divided up more widely. I know of parts in the north-west where the people, in consequence of the drought, can hardly pay their taxes and in this connection a further burden is laid on them which they are unable to bear. They are, however, obliged to do so by law. We ought to have uniformity in this respect in the Union. The prevention of contagions disease—and of other disease which is named in the law—ought to be a national one and ought to be placed upon the districts as one of their ordinary duties. I say this the more because doctors are only too anxious to be appointed as district surgeons. The Minister rightly said that the alteration I am advocating will necessitate more expenditure, but it will be justifiable especially in the Cape where the local taxpayers have to bear the burden. I hope the Minister will reconsider whether he cannot amend the law.

The hon. member may not now discuss the amendment of the law.

I note that the Divisional Council Congress decided that the present system is unfair and I can understand it because I know from experience that the local bodies cannot afford it. I am opposed to the doctors being instructed to do the work, and the local bodies then having to pay for it. The prevention of these diseases ought to be a national, or at least, a Provincial matter.

I was very glad to hear the hon. member for Troyeville (Mr. Kentridge) make that speech reinforcing the action taken by many of us in this House. I am very glad he supported the idea of having the whole matter enquired into by a commission during the recess. I think the case for a commission is overwhelming. There are so many and so different factors involved which will have to be considered before one could arrive at a real solution of the housing question. So much information is required that the only body that could deal with it would be a body of experts, specially selected, who would look at the matter from the point of view of Government responsibility, local responsibility and individual responsibility. The Minister said in effect the other night that the Government had no national responsibility for the erection of houses. He put the duty of building houses entirely on the shoulders of the local authorities. I submit there is a very good case indeed for reconsideration of that attitude. I put it on the same ground in principle as national responsibility for public health. Government responsibility for public health is not confined to any particular area. In the Public Health Act of 1919 it is recognized that an outbreak of disease in any one area is a matter which concerns the whole body politic, and that the Union Government has a very large share of responsibility. Even where it is purely a local outbreak, and whatever the disease may be, the Government recognises its responsibility under the statutes of the country by having to contribute as the law requires a proportion of the capital cost of money spent on buildings, money spent in maintaining those buildings, and money spent in checking the epidemic, and in addition to that the Government has power to make grants in aid. On exactly the same principle there is a very strong case indeed for saying the Government should recognise its responsibility to contribute a decent share of the expenditure involved in the solution of this question. It is not purely the duty of the local authorities. We must not put all the responsibility and blame on the local authorities. In connection with private enterprise it has become almost commonplace to say that it has broken down in regard to the provision of those houses which form the most important part of the problem, that is, houses for the very poor. Private enterprise undoubtedly has broken down so far as the provision of these houses by the speculative builder is concerned, but there are a large number of other private agencies, and the Government could do nothing better than to stimulate as far as possible the ideal of “every man his own landlord” by helping every man to produce the class of house which meets his economic convenience. Then there are these other agencies—building societies, trades unions, philanthropic and public utility societies and things of that kind. I should like the commission to have instructions to enquire into how far private enterprise might be stimulated in these various ways in the production of these houses for the community. I think the Minister should have this commission appointed, and that it should enquire over the whole area of the problem and in the light of the vast experience gained since the war, for instance, in Holland, England and here. But there is one thing that is a matter of immediate necessity and that is that whatever may be reported upon by the commission, legislation should be introduced next session for the purpose of giving the powers which municipalities desire for expropriation of town areas to deal with slums.

I should like to ask the Minister whether the powers and duties of the Provincial Councils and the Union Government are properly defined. If it is the duty of the Union Government to look after weak-minded children and the weak-minded in general, then we cannot say anything else but that the Government has done very little up to the present. We find weak-minded children in all schools in the country, and they only keep back their class. We know there are only a few schools for weak-minded children. It was said again yesterday that thousands and thousands of pounds were spent in the eradication of scab, but here we have a cancer in our national life which weakens our people, and if we do not alter the position we shall have a population becoming weaker and weaker and gradually inferior.

I want to suggest the appointment of a commission on this matter. I agree with the hon. member for Troyeville (Mr. Kentridge). After all, it is a fallacy to believe that cheap labour will lead to cheap building. I think it is the general experience that well-paid labour means efficiency. If the Minister wants to get the best and cheapest type of house, he can do it by co-operation between the builders and employees and to see that non-essential parts of the building are left out. I am quite sure that the dilution of labour will meet with failure, and I hope the Minister will not press that point. If he discussed the matter with the builders he may obtain some suggestions. Then I would like to ask the Minister whether he is prepared to make a statement with regard to the report of the University Commission. The recommendation of the commission that extra-mural students should be penalized has been received with dismay amongst the students. As the Minister knows, these extra-mural students are quite a big feature of the Transvaal University College, and the council of the extra-mural students is very much upset by the recommendation. There is one other point I would like to raise. In spite of the fact that the Minister of Finance has stated the policy of the Government on the restoration of the 1923 scales of salaries, I should like to know whether the Minister has considered whether some system could not be adopted to discuss this matter with the Public Service Association so that some finality might be reached. At the last conference in Pretoria it was suggested that a new commission should be appointed; I understand this has been received by a certain amount of enthusiasm by the public servants, and I wonder if the Minister has framed some scheme.

I should like to say a few words about housing. I had the opportunity to go and see the condition of the people in the slums of Cape Town. I have had experience of slums in other great cities of the world, inter alia, London and New York, and I may say that conditions in Cape Town are very serious. I feel that the local Town Council without a doubt has not done its duty. In the backyards in the slums one finds, e.g., that rubbish is thrown down and heaped up and in this respect one must blame the sanitary inspectors and the Town Council. My experience teaches me that Cape Town very closely approaches the slums of London, and I have rarely seen any conditions in Europe and America which are as bad as those here. The hon. member for Cape Town (Gardens) (Mr. Coulter) has said what the towns have done about housing, but on examining the official Rear Rook we find that the city of Cape Town in 1927 had only built 44 houses for Europeans and 286 houses for coloured people. As against that Pretoria built 54 houses for Europeans and as many as 1,983 for coloured people. In 1928 Pretoria spent £247,853 in housing, and the way in which the money was divided up shows that the Town Council of Pretoria not only does its duty towards the whites but towards the natives and the other coloured people as well. If we are to rank towns according to their slums, they come in the order. Cape Town, Port Elizabeth, Durban and Bloemfontein. The important question in my mind is what will be the future of the children in the slums of the big cities. I would like to say that we, as members of the House, must regard the matter from the broad point of view.

Why do you talk of Cape Town then?

Because it struck me that conditions here were the worst, because the mother city ought to be an example to every city in South Africa. If Cape Town does not understand this it must be converted.

And Johannesburg?

I know Johannesburg and I want to say that it has spent £3,000,000 without Government assistance to buy parts of the slums. I admit that there are still parts between Vrededorp and Fordsburg that are very bad. It is not for me, however, to make a comparison, but I want the matter to be put right by us. I want the Town Councils to take action and not leave everything to the Government. I sympathise with the hon. member for Mowbray (Mr. Close) because the position to-day is not what it ought to be. Application is made to the Housing Committee of the Town Council, then it goes to the Finance Committee, then to the Town Council, next to the Central Housing Board, back to the Town Council, then before Townships Board and finally before the Administrator and the Executive Committee. There are, therefore, seven bodies handling the matter before it can be carried out. I want quicker action taken and I hope that the Minister will see his way to appoint a Commission of Enquiry. It must consist of people who have a thorough knowledge of the matter and are really interested in the future of the children. The surroundings in which they live are terrible to-day because the poor children get no air. You find eight people in one room where cooking, eating and sleeping also takes place. If it were not for the South African sun all the people in the slums would be consumptive. We cannot be sufficiently thankful that conditions are not worse and for this we have only our good climate to thank. I, however, feel that it is necessary that houses for the poor people should be put up outside the big cities so that the children can breathe fresh air and grow up as healthy citizens. I know that the Minister has a sympathetic heart for the people and the children because he is not only Minister of Public Health but also Minister of Education; therefore we feel that we can go to him and say that he must take action to stop all red tape. As it is we find to-day that between thirty and forty per cent. of the coloured people are consumptive and if things go on as at present things will become much worse. In the large houses in the slums we find Europeans in the front, natives in the middle, and coloured people at the back. This creates demoralising surroundings where the children come into touch with all sorts of classes and languages. This has an injurious effect on them and we shall therefore be neglecting our duties if we allow our towns to sink into the same conditions as those of other countries. We must waken the public conscience so that action can be taken to bring about an improvement. I hope that a Commission will be appointed and a report made that will not be pigeonholed in the Department, but that it will be followed by measures to improve the conditions of our people.

It is very pleasing, after hearing to-day the hon. the Minister’s some-what optimistic forecast of the next general election, to note that he concludes with the candid admission that he is no prophet. I would like to say a word or two more about the Housing Commission. It is gratifying to see that members on the opposite side are supporting us in our plea for the appointment of a Commission. But it is no use indulging in recriminations as to where the blame lies for the present state of affairs. If one had the time one could put up a very good case for Cape Town; and whatever may be said, I may remind Hon. members that it was Cape Town that started the agitation which has resulted in the Minister now giving more attention to the housing question. Whatever its sins of omission, it is the mother city which has given the lead in this matter. I want, also, for a moment to refer to the question of our hospitals. I realize that this is a matter for the Provincial Councils, but, as the Minister knows; in 1925 there was a Hospitals Commission which made some very vital recommendations in its report. I would like to ask the Minister whether he can inform this House what his policy is in regard to the report of that commission. Three years ago, a member, who is no longer in this House, introduced a motion for the enforcement of the recommendations of the Commission, and a very eloquent plea was put up for putting into practice those recommendations. There is no doubt that the conditions disclosed in the report are very appalling indeed, and are a blot on our national life. We are all anxious to raise the status of South Africa in the eyes of the world, but it seems futile to make a display outside the Union while we have these skeletons in our social cupboard at home. I appeal to the Minister to consider whether he cannot find a means of carrying into effect some of the recommendations of that Commission. As far as I can gather from the reply given three years ago by the Minister, he was perfectly prepared to admit the justice of many of the most stringent observations in that report. He assured the House that there were few matters to which the Government had given such earnest attention, and admitted that the general feeling of South Africa was in favour of the adoption of the main recommendations. He said he agreed, and the majority of his colleagues concurred, that as to the merits of the main recommendations there was not much question, but he added that that was not the only consideration. Now, as hon. members know, the main recommendation of the Report was that there should be central control and better equipment, and that overlapping should be prevented; in other words, that the State should take a certain measure of responsibility. The maintenance of hospitals, it was suggested, should be a direct charge upon the Union Government, and further details were set forth in that Report. The Minister, said on the occasion of the last debate, that the matter of the hospitals was one which fell under the administration of the Provincial Councils, and the Government could not under take any financial responsibility. But have conditions improved since then? About eight or nine months ago a meeting was held in Cape Town, when an earnest plea was made on behalf of the hospitals by prominent members of the medical profession that something should be done. One cannot allow this question to drift. If it is necessary for the Government to alter the law relating to Provincial Councils, I would sincerely suggest that the Minister should go into the question and consider whether the present system should not be altered in order to improve the existing method of hospital administration.

I just want to say a few Words in connection with the question under debate, that of housing. There is not the least doubt that this side of the House feels just as strongly as any other side of the House on the question. I have only one fear namely, that the debate this afternoon will possibly have the effect of making the local bodies feel inclined to shift the responsibility on to the State. One must have a heart of stone if you do not feel strongly on the housing question, if you have seen the state of affairs the hon. member for Wonderboom (Dr. van Broekhuizen) was talking about. Especially when we see how the families which lived in Namaqualand, the Karroo, and in one case even the Free State, now live here in the little rooms, sometimes without even a single window—if there is a window it is usually closed up—and if you ask them why they close up the window they reply that it is too cold as they have no blankets. They are in a pitiable condition of poverty. It is clear that something must be done, but I think it will not assist much if the Government appoints a Commission. Such a Commission has in such a case usually not much objective and usually it is only a salve to the consciences of the people. I feel that the initiative should be taken by the local authorities, and where they have difficulty financially they must apply to the Central Government. As far as I understand, the work of the Government ought to be more of a preventive kind so that the people should not stream so irresponsibly from the country into the towns to look for permanent work and a proper house. Another aspect of the matter is that it is a danger when it becomes known on the country side amongst the bywoners and poor people who have a hard time, that nice houses are being made available, because they will then say: “Come, let us go to Cape Town where we shall get a nice house.” Then we must also bear in mind the effect of the Rent Boards. The Rent Boards have done very useful work in some respects, but on the other hand the people who formerly had houses and let them have been caused by the action of the Rent Board to give up their work in that direction. The Rent Boards have done good work, but it is a question whether they have not also acted injuriously. We can leave it to the Government what the actual effect of the Rent Board is, and what can be done to control the rush of the country population to the towns, and to see that if the people come to the towns they earn proper wages. It is a few years ago that the Wages Act was passed; it has already had good results, and I still have great expectations from it if it is well administered, but we cannot permit the industries to be built up on the shoulders of the slums. I do not think it is the Government’s work to take the initiative, but that of the local bodies, and if they fail then they can come to the Government. When I speak about the sad conditions I do not mean that they only prevail in Cape Town, the same position exists in other towns. A few years ago I noticed the terrible position at Port Elizabeth amongst the poor people. I know that even in Bloemfontein not far from Maitland Street a similar state prevails, although of course there is not the same mixture of whites and coloured there as here. If the local bodies have done their duty as far as it was possible then it is time to approach the Central Government.

I would like to support the remarks of the hon. member for Durban (Greyville) (Major Richards) op the housing question, a subject that is now engaging the attention of the whole Union. I have been associated with local government in Durban for seven years, and can speak with some knowledge of the care and attention devoted to this question by the Durban Town Council. The expenditure of £400,000 to which the honourable member referred, had done a good deal to solve the problem. In Durban we had no slum problem there until the influx of cheap labour took place. The Government cannot blame the local authorities for formulating their housing schemes on an economic basis. The Government charged an economic interest and took no risk. The local authorities took all the risk. Durban’s scheme was sub-economic to this extent they put in the land at a lower value than it would realise in the open market. Furthermore, there was no administrative charges debited to the account. It might be stated that the type of houses built in Durban is beyond the reach of the very poorest. That we admit, but it has provided additional accommodation, and has eased the position very materially by making available cheaper houses. I can say this, that we had no slum problem in Durban until the advent of cheap labour a few years ago, and it has been suggested in connection with the railway housing, that the Durban Corporation should give the land to the Railway Department for housing its employees at a sub-economic price. But I cannot see why we should be expected to do this to a trading concern like the railways. Our own Municipal employees do not expect it. The Government does not always treat local bodies justly, inasmuch as government property is exempt from rates, and the Railway Department does not contribute its fair share towards the up-keep of the roads. The local authorities, in fact, do not receive a fair quota from the central government. Housing is not the only problem in dealing with the poorer classes. Durban makes grants-in-aid to the extent of about £40,000 a year, most of which is charitable grants. This is a fairly heavy drain on the ratepayers and is only one of the many claims that residents in Urban areas have to meet, in addition to paying their share of the Union taxation. The Government has no right to expect one section of the community to pear all the expenses in regard to housing the poor, and I welcome the proposition that the matter be referred to a commission, and that the subject be regarded as a national one.

In regard to the training of native medical students, three years ago the Minister said he would deal with the question. At present provision is made for natives to receive their first two years training in medicine, but unless facilities are provided for the students to complete the course their preliminary training is useless. The Minister told us about gramophone records being ground up for the making of medicine by natives, so, evidently he realises that some provision should be made for giving natives better medical service. I would also like information regarding the spread of tuberculosis among the natives. Is the report available of the medical man who was sent to investigate the matter? Tuberculosis is becoming a serious menace in the native areas, and it is absolutely essential that the country should do something to cope with the disease. The housing problem in the large cities of the Union is said to be due to the influx of natives. It is all very well to say that the natives should go elsewhere, but a very large proportion of them when they desire to go to Johannesburg are rejected by the medical inspectors. The result is that most of the natives from the Transkei come to Cape Town, and unless something is done to combat the spread of disease among the natives they will continue to flock to Cape Town in increasing numbers. Then there is the danger of natives carrying malaria to other parts of the country. The Minister should take some active interest in the health conditions of the natives. At present there are only a few doctors in the native territories and probably the only time natives see a surgeon is when some of them are killed in a fight. The health conditions are becoming worse and worse every year. Typhus is also a serious menace. Some of the kraals are deserted because their former inhabitants have been wiped out by typhus. The matter brooks of no delay, as the whole health of the country is at stake.

I am interested in the Minister’s statement that in Zululand they grind up gramaphone records for medicine, but I hope the Minister is not insinuating that that is the reason we occasionally hear in this House “his master’s voice” from our Natal friends. Really I want to discuss the question of Indian immigration. I understood that the Indian Government was to appoint a representative to do everything possible to assist in carrying out the Cape Town agreement, the most important proviso in which was the one regarding repatriation. Is the Government satisfied that repatriation is being put in the fort-front of their propaganda by the agents of the Indian Government? I have followed speeches by Mr. Sastri and Sir V. K. Reddi, but I have never seen a public reference by them to repatriation or the slightest effort by them to persuade the Indians to return to their own country. On the other hand I have heard many speeches from them impressing on the Indians to conform to European standards, to raise themselves and to avail themselves of educational facilities in order that they may become good citizens of South Africa, and thus obtain all the benefits which would then become theirs by right. I have never heard one word from these gentlemen persuading their compatriots to return to India. I would ask the Minister to make that very plain and to let us know whether he is satisfied with the influences which are being brought to bear by the agents of the Indian Government on Indians in this country, and whether he thinks they are not more likely to induce Indians to remain in this country. I was rather struck with the Minster’s reply to a quotation given by the hon. member for Yeoville (Mr. Duncan) in reference to certain health matters. The Minster said that could not be taken as the Government’s opinion or as the Government’s responsibility. It seems extraordinary that when we had the case, for instance, of the Railway Bulletin issued just before the general election, the Government did not have the slightest hesitation in availing themselves of the most favourable information in that bulletin and in claiming it as the official mouthpiece of the Government. It does seem to me that where these reports contain matter favourable to the Government they are only too anxious to accept them, but where, as in this case, information is divulged not exactly creditable to the Administration, they hastily say “we are not responsible for this; it is only the private opinion of the individual who wrote the report.” We have been told Mr. Schmidt is to take over the office of Auditor-General. Can the Minister tell us who is to take his place as Secretary for the Interior?

I first want to reply to the hon. member for Prieska (Mr. C. H. Geldenhuys). He complained that the local authority in the Cape Province is taxed too much for district surgeons. I just want to say that the basic principle of the Public Health Act of 1919 was to make local authorities responsible and I think it was a good one. If local bodies cannot be responsible, and look after local health what other body can do it? The local people are the most concerned, and have the most interest in the taking of all kinds of measures to advance the local health and if the Central Government is to do the work of the local bodies then the local bodies would only be there to criticise and not to extend their hand to improve conditions. The Central Government contributes largely in respect of contagious disease. The hon. member further complains that local bodies such as the Divisional Councils are compelled to bear the cost of medical treatment by the district surgeons in the outside districts while that is not so in the other provinces. I want to point out that they are not obliged. The ordinance provides that the district surgeon can only go to the outside districts at the cost of the Provincial Administration, if a local body consents, and is prepared to bear its share of the cost while the Provincial Administration bears the other share. Local bodies do not always consent because they do not want to bear the expense. If the position is better in the other provinces viz. that the Provincial Administration takes all responsibility then it is for the Provincial Council to pass such an ordinance and I will adopt it.

Then the Act has first to be altered.

No that is not necessary. If the Provincial Administration amends it the matter can be put in order. The hon. member for Lydenburg (Mr. De. Souza), asked whether the regulations of the Central Government and the Provincial Administration more particularly with regard to the treatment of feeble minded was sufficiently definite. The reply is that it is difficult to always see the dividing line clearly as to the respective duties. Children who are backward come under the Provincial Administration for their education, and the Provincial Administrations have in some cases established special schools for backward children so that the other children in the class are not kept back. Under the Union Government come only the feeble minded children who are certified as such by the Court, like those at Witrand and the Alexandria Institute. It is clearly laid down but it is difficult to always fix the dividing line. The matter is now being specially investigated by an inter-departmental committee, but the report has not yet been received. The hon. member for Wonderboom (Dr. van Broekhuizen) in his speech on housing complained that seven different bodies had to be consulted before anything could be done. That is in the nature of things. The local body is responsible under the law and I think that is a sound principle, and the local bodies guarantee the amounts which the Central Government advance for housing loans. If we make the local bodies give a guarantee then we must recognise them in connection with the loan. The Provincial Administration must also be recognised because it is the surety for the Municipal Loan and because municipalities do not come directly under the Government but under the Provincial Administration, and the Central Housing Board because that body must make the grant from the fund which the Government makes available and must give advice to the municipalities throughout the country.

† The hon. member for Mowbray (Mr. Close) in connection with the housing question has asked whether I would consider the appointment of a commission to go during the recess into the whole question and assist the Government. With regard to the Government, I can only say that a commission is not necessary to find out what the state of affairs is in the various centres of the country, because we have the Central Housing Board, which has visited on occasion most of the centres and has reported to me. I know exactly where the conditions are bad and where they are not; but with regard to the suggestion which I made the other night in the House, when this question was discussed, I can only say at this stage that I will consider the matter. The Central Housing Board has to exercise the functions which the hon. member wishes to entrust to such a commission, and they are there for the purpose. The question is only how far the board should be instructed by me, and I have expressed the opinion to representatives from Cape Town, who met me a few days ago, that I will certainly do everything in my power to get as wide a consultation between the board and municipalities as is possible. It may be I shall arrange a small conference on this question between the Central Housing Board and the most expert representatives I can get from these municipalities, especially those which have the widest experience in this matter. Whether it is to be a commission or whether this particular way is to be followed which I have indicated, I cannot say at this stage, and I will have to consider it further. The hon. member for Pretoria (East) (Mr. Giovanetti) asked a question with regard to the report of the University Commission and extra-mural students. He must distinguish between extramural and external students. The external student is one who does not attend any classes at the university or college; the extra-mural student resides in that particular centre where the institution exists and attends the classes, mostly in the evening. In Pretoria you find a large number of civil servants who attend the classes of the Transvaal University College. The recommendation of the commission was that extra-mural students, not external students, should be enabled to obtain in such university or college a diploma, and not a degree. This particular point has been considered by the University Conference, which met a few months ago in Cape Town, and which was of opinion that in this respect the report of the Education Commission should not be adopted. I have not taken a final decision yet, but I will consider this recommendation sympathetically of the University Commission. With regard to the Cost of Living Commission, I can only say that the Public Service Commission has a general instruction to go into the question of the cost of living, as it affects the local allowances, every two years, and for this purpose they have appointed a sub-commission. The matter is still under consideration, and I do not know what the report of the sub-commission is. At any rate, the Public Service Commission has not finally considered the matter, so at this stage I cannot say anything further with regard to that. The hon. member for Salt River (Mr. Lawrence) asked what my policy was with regard to hospitals. All I can say is that the standpoint I took up three years ago, when this matter was exhaustively discussed, is still my standpoint. The whole question, I agree, is not satisfactory, although more satisfactory now than three years ago. At any rate, we have not seen our way as a Government to adopt the main recommendations of the commission which was appointed; namely, that all hospitals should be brought under the control of the Union Government. The matter is of such importance and affects so deeply the relations of the central Government and the provinces that we cannot take over the hospitals and transfer this most important service without affecting very deeply these relations and making necessary a revision of the relations between the central government and the provinces more generally; and I think that with regard to this particular point hon. members must have patience till some day, when the whole question of provincial relations can be revised. Since that time I have taken it upon myself, as Minister of Public Health, first of all to have a general survey of the hospital position of the country made for the advice of the provincial administrations; to give them a general plan for the building of hospitals where necessary. The second is I have taken upon myself the inspection of hospitals, even although hospitals are a provincial concern, and in that way get more uniformity as far as administration is concerned. The third is to provide the necessary loan moneys to build hospitals in various centres where the need is very great. Further than that, under the existing conditions in various centres, we could not go. The hon. member for Tembuland (Mr. Payn) raised the question of the training of native medical students. He has already stated that the whole matter has been gone into by the commission appointed by the Minister of Native Affairs. That report, I believe, has been published, and I think it is available. As far as steps are concerned to carry out any of the recommendations of that commission, that is a matter the Government has not had an opportunity of going into. In any case, it is a matter of consultation, between the Department of Education and the Department of Native Affairs; but this matter will receive our serious consideration. As I stated just now, we have had a good deal of experience, which is very favourable, of the use of native health visitors in cases of epidemic, and the question is whether we should not rather follow for some time to come a policy for using educated natives and training them in some measure in health matters for use in the native territories. This matter is one which at this stage is also still under consideration. As far as tuberculosis is concerned, the hon. member for Tembuland (Mr. Payn) will know that we have been making recently a survey of the whole position in the native territories, and we have seconded an officer to do that work in the Transkei and the other native territories. I am not aware that the report is yet available, but I do not think we deserve the accusation made by the hon. gentleman that we take no interest in health matters in the native territories. We are providing a sum of £2,000 on the Estimates for a survey, and a commission is at present busy on this matter. Further than that, I can tell the hon. gentleman that we have decided to appoint an assistant medical officer of health especially for the Eastern Province, and more especially for the native territories, and he is at present stationed at Kingwilliamstown. One of the most important men we have in the service is stationed in the native territories to look after the health interest especially of the natives; so that I do not think the accusation is deserved, that we have neglected the natives in this respect. The hon. member for Griqualand (Mr. Gilson) has had something to say about the representatives of the Government of India in this country, to the effect that they are not doing their duty with respect to the emigration scheme. Hon. members have not recognised the difficulties which these men have in this connection, and which the Government of India has. If these representatives of the Government of India were to go from platform to platform in this country and advise Indians to go to India, it would defeat the very object we have in view, because the Indians would take such an act as a stigma of inferiority. We ought to realise more the difficulties which are connected with the whole agreement. The hon. member has asked a question in connection with the appointment of the present Secretary of the Interior as Auditor-General. All I can say is that he will vacate his present office in November, when Mr. Roos vacates his office as Auditor-General. I have not, at the present moment, decided who will be the successor of Mr. Schmidt, the Secretary of the Interior, but judging from past experience the hon. member can rely upon it that a very good man will be found. One man I appointed afterwards became chairman of the Public Service Commission, and another has to vacate the office to become Auditor-General. The hon. gentleman can rely upon it that a very suitable appointment will be made.

May I tell the Minister that what I propose is a commission on the housing question in all the big cities in the Union, which shall go round and take evidence and discharge a number of duties of investigation. By this means we shall be enabled to see to what extent the Act may have to be changed and up-to-date legislation enacted. We have had ten years of post-war experience, an experience which has been far more valuable for the purpose of dealing with this problem than that of any previous decade. It is not a question of there being any antagonism in advocating a commission as against a conference. The conference will serve a useful but local purpose; but the commission will serve a much wider one. There is one other question of great public importance to which I wish to refer, and that is the question of cancer. There is a sum of £2,000 on the Estimates for investigation into tuberculosis. Is not cancer also a matter of such vital importance that there should be a similar provision? What research is being conducted into cancer, and by whom is it being done? Should we not have provision for special investigation of cancer? We have had a good deal of discussion as to the latest knowledge obtained with regard to the treatment of this disease. Is the Minister able to tell the House whether there has not been a great advance lately as to knowledge of the conditions under which cancer arises, and in the direction of special treatment of cancer? Has the Government taken any steps to assist the hospitals in the matter of the provision of radium? The late discoveries made with regard to radium treatment have been of a very important and valuable character. What provision is made in regard to radium for hospitals, and for modern up-to-date appliances for its use in the treatment of cancer.

In reply to Mr. Close the research work in this country is in the hands of the institution for medical research in Johannesburg. The hon. member knows that £5,000 is to be put aside for research generally, and cancer is included in that. Nothing is done especially by provision of funds for cancer alone. In addition to this we have the professors in the two Universities who do as much research work as possible. If anything is done it must be in connection with the institute at Johannesburg. I will go into the matter and consider what additional funds can be provided.

Will you do that?

Yes, I will consider the matter. In regard to the provision of radium, that matter has drawn a good deal of attention lately, and a great deal has been written about it. There are two hospitals, Cape Town and Johannesburg, which have a small supply of radium and the question is what is being done in the matter, what is being done here? For that purpose £30,000 will be required to make provision in Johannesburg and in Cape Town. In Johannesburg the hospital board has collected from the public £10,000, and in Cape Town from £1,200 to £1,500. What would be required to make proper provision is £25,000, and if proper provision is made in other centres such as Durban, Bloemfontein and Kimberley, it would cost the country about £100,000—a very big sum, and I cannot say at this stage whether the Government would be prepared to make a contribution, but we may consider the matter and see if anything can be done.

Do you not think the Government should make some contribution?

In Australia and Great Britain the Government are taking upon themselves the responsibility of establishing a special board, but I cannot say whether this Government is prepared to do anything in this direction.

I would like to ask the Minister for his practical assistance on behalf of the blind sections of the people in the Union. The hon. Minister knows that early in this year a conference was called for the purpose of bringing into existence the national council for the blind. The Minister was not able to personally attend that conference but he sent one of his chief officers to identify himself with this movement. Now, sir, such an organisation has been brought into existence because this question is gradually developing into a very grave social problem. There are 10,000 blind persons in the Union. This is a startling statement, but there has been no means of obtaining reliable statistics and one has to go back to 1915 when for the first time in the history of the Union an attempt was made to get statistics and it was found that, more or less over the whole of the Union, through the four provinces, there were 4,000 Europeans and 6,000 non-Europeans blind. With regard to reliable statistics it is found impossible to get anything like trustworthy figures. There is a natural reluctance on the part of parents who have handicapped children to make statements on fact even when the information required is confidential and will react for that person’s benefit. People who know say that the position was not correctly stated even in 1915 when the figures were approximately 10,000 and the figures are worse now than they were 15 years ago. The national council has been brought into existence and its constitution is pressed on every society which deals with blindness. Our first concern is to find out the measure of the problem with which we are confronted. People who have attempted to deal with the matter of infant blindness assure one that 75 per cent. of the blindness prevalent among children in the Union need never have existed—that this blindness is preventable and that child life societies contend that it is due to the laxity with which infants are brought into this world. There is not sufficient consideration given to the care of these children when born. The certification of midwives is causing the Government some concern, but I believe the department has the matter in hand. The National Council for the Blind would like to know exactly the extent of the problem it has to face. At present the only institution for the training of the blind is the Worcester school for the blind, which for 40 years has been run by the Dutch Reformed Church. What the plight of these people would have been without the Dutch Reformed Church we do not know. About 150 blind people have been successfully established in social life as a result of the care and training of the Worcester institution has been able to give them. That institution has never made a public appeal for funds, because the Dutch Reformed Church has backed its every need. Unfortunately that institution can make provision only for the training of persons up to 21 years of age. Up to three years ago no facilities were provided for the training of blind children. The public are prepared to back every endeavour on behalf of the blind and I ask the Minister to consider the advisability of appointing a commission to report on the needs of the blind people in the Union. I do not want a parliamentary select committee, but a commission presided over, if possible, by one of the Minister’s own senior officers, say Dr. Mitchell, Medical Officer of Health for the Union, who is very deeply interested in this question. There is no need for me to paint a touching picture in order to emphasise that there are 10,000 blind people in the Union. The fact that 75 per cent. of blindness is preventable is a reflection on us as a progressive country. The Minister has shown his practical sympathy by making provision for a grant to the National Council for the Blind, but it is absolutely impossible for that body to obtain the information which it desires. If I went on a campaign I could raise a fund amounting to £25,000 or £30,000. I hope the Government will take this very serious problem into consideration. [Time Limit.]

I hope this appeal which has just been made will not fall on deaf ears. There is no doubt—I speak from what I have seen in Johannesburg—it is a very serious problem. At the very first moment something should be done by the Government to ameliorate the suffering of these unfortunate people. I want to ask the Minister if I rightly understood him in regard to the extra-mural students as distinguished from the external students. Did I understand him to say the extra-mural students had his sympathy, and will be allowed to sit for degree examinations at a university? But what about the external students who are not in a position to attend night lectures? I have been approached by several pupils whose parents are not in a position to furnish the funds to enable them to attend these university lectures, either in the daytime or at night. There are many of us in this House who have achieved some success in examinations who had no opportunity of attending university lectures. Surely it is unjust to deprive the poor person of the opportunity of sitting for a degree. I hope that the Minister will take this matter into serious consideration.

The hon. member who has just spoken has put up a plea for the external students. The question of the external students is only part of the greater question as to what attitude I should adopt as the responsible Minister with regard to a great many recommendations made by the Higher Education Commission in connection with higher education and also with regard to technical education. It has been my policy right from the beginning that the recommendations of the commission should go to the bodies most intimately concerned, and for that reason I have called together, first of all, a university conference to discuss among themselves these recommendations and after that a conference of the technical institutes which are also intimately concerned, and that conference has only recently been held. I cannot at this stage indicate what my attitude will be with regard to all these various recommendations which are to be considered by these various bodies. In some cases not only these bodies in conjunction with each other are concerned, but also individual institutions, which I must consult before I take any step. All I can say with regard to the question of external students is that I will consider it when I consider the question as a whole. With regard to the plea which has been put up by the hon. member for Cape Town (Central) (Mr. Bowen) on behalf of the blind, I can say I do not think it will be possible for us to appoint a special commission to go into the whole matter. Accusations have been made that there are too many commissions. While this complaint is raised especially and exclusively on the side of the Opposition, we find that when any difficult problem crops up there is a demand for a commission. We have at present an inter departmental commission to go into the whole question of the blind. With regard to the necessary statistics to be collected, as far as they may be usable by the department itself it can be done through the agency of magistrates and the police. I think all the necessary statistics could be collected, and it would not be necessary to appoint a commission. With regard to the care for the blind I think we have made some progress within recent years. First of all, the chief and practically the only institution for a long time, the one at Worcester, has been very much improved as far as general education is concerned, and has been taken over by the Government as its sole responsibility, and we provide all the funds necessary. Methods which were antiquated have been improved very much and modernized and it costs the Government a good deal more, but I think we are getting value for the money. I have made it possible for all denominations to be represented at Worcester as far as the care of the children belonging to their denomination are concerned and they are provided for in hostels there, if they provide the money just as the Dutch Reformed Church does. The general education is looked after by the Government. We have also considered the question of literature for the blind scattered all over the country, and a small institution has been started in Grahamstown to provide the initiative. The Government recognizes the good work it is doing, and we are subsidizing it. Further, we are subsidizing the Athlone institute, which, as the hon. member knows, is for the coloured blind, and have improved the accommodation generally for these children. The whole question will always be sympathetically considered. We could hardly go further than we have done in recent years to improve the whole position.

I would like to put a question to the Minister with regard to housing. The impression I have gained is that the whole of the money made available by the Government has not been used. With regard to Port Elizabeth. I understand that £103,000 has not been used, and is still available. Is that money now available, and has the unused portion been available during the four years mentioned by the Minister?

Yes, a considerable sum was allotted to Port Elizabeth for housing. I think it was £175,000. That money has not all been used.

But the £175,000 to which the Minister has referred is spread over four years.

There will be no difficulty about getting the money as soon as it is required.

I do not think there is a single person in the House, or outside of the House who would not approve of the Minister’s action in appointing the commission in connection with the blind. I can assure the Minister that the suggestions about getting all the information that one needs through the intervention of resident magistrates and other people is impracticable. It cannot be done, and I think when the Minister has an opportunity of getting into touch with the responsible officials of this department dealing with child welfare and blind institutions generally he will see that this difficulty which I outlined when I suggested the appointment of a commission is a very great difficulty, and one which cannot be overcome other than by the appointment of this commission. There have been commissions appointed in practically every progressive country in the world which has introduced any sort of special legislation dealing with the blind. One has only to refer to the commission which enquired into the conditions of the blind in New Zealand to see that the terms of reference in that case were practically unlimited, and an invitation was given to that commission to formulate recommendations as to the nature of social legislation which ought to be introduced. This is not a question of having a number of European blind and a number of coloured blind seeking education or training. This is a grave social problem. There are more and more blind people coming into this world every day, and it is due to the health conditions and to want of care given to expectant mothers, and to mothers at child birth. I know of a family at Robertson, coming of good Dutch stock, and one has traced back the parentage of this family to see if there is any possibility of eye weakness on either side of the family. One cannot find any trace of it, and vet out of seven children born in that family five are blind. They have been attended to by the same midwife the same brisk helpful women who assisted the mother in bringing the other children into the world. Five of these children are blind to-day. It is possible for one to make recommendations that are beyond the possibility of even the Minister’s department considering. They cannot get the information which a commission could, and it is only this evidence which can be brought before a commission which will enable the Minister to deal with this question. It is not likely that in a question of this kind there will be any opposition coming from this side of the House. It is not a party consideration, and I venture to say that no member sitting behind the Minister would ever dare to make this a party question. The Minister was not fair to himself when he drew the comparison of the suggestion of this commission being criticised by members on this side of the House or any member sitting behind him. I invited the Minister to put on this commission such members as will bring a great knowledge to a solution of the problem. I do not want the Minister to turn the question down now. I want him to go away from this discussion with an open mind and to consider the gravity of the question from every possible aspect. I am pleased he has taken over full responsibility for the education of the children who were provided for under the auspices of the Dutch Reformed Church. I am very pleased also that the Minister has taken full responsibility for the blind institutions at Worcester, and I am sure he will enquire into the adequacy of the amount paid and to see whether or no greater privileges might be given to the professional staff attached to that institution. As the Minister has taken the question and responsibility on his department for the full education of the blind I would like him to consider the question of giving the same privileges to the Athlone blind school.

Amendment put and negatived.

Vote as printed, put and agreed to.

Vote 21, “Mental Hospitals and Institutions for Feeble-Minded,” £578,013, put and agreed to.

Vote 22, “Printing and Stationery,” £298,821, put and agreed to.

Vote 23, “Public Health,” £491,473, put and agreed to.

On the motion of the Minister of Finance it was agreed to report progress and ask leave to sit again.

House Resumed:

Progress reported; House to resume in Committee on 12th August.