I move, as an unopposed motion—

Mr. M. L. MALAN seconded.

Agreed to.

First Order read: House to resume on Committee of Supply.

House In Committee:

Progress reported yesterday on Vote 29, “Agriculture (Education).”

I want to know if, in the experimental farms, they are conducting any experiments in regard to improving pasturage by fertilisers. Even in England where pasturage has been looked after for many hundreds of years at Rothamstead they are conducting far flung experiments in improving pastures by fertilisation and other methods. The Government could experiment in two ways, on the natural veld and on the imported grasses. I think the Minister ought to take it into serious consideration. There is another matter I want to bring up, and that is we are going to be faced in the near future with a glut of sheep. There is no question of that, and something ought to be done to relieve the position. I wonder if the Minister would not consider small shipments being sent overseas, not only to England but to the continental markets—shipments of surplus slaughter stock from the experimental farms, to test the markets. The local market will never consume that surplus. Then I would like to know the number of students at the various agricultural colleges—Cedara, Potchefstroom, Glen and Stellenbosch.

Last year I drew the Minister’s attention to the very alarming spread of bloupens. Many remedies have been tried and varieties of treatment suggested. Last year the Minister sent an officer who carried out several inoculation experiments, but nothing of a practical nature as far as I know ensued. I would be glad if the Minister would send someone during the coming lambing season to carry out research work, which would be a splendid opportunity of studying the whole question. I can guarantee that the farmers will give every assistance to such officer and every facility in the way of transport, to help along this very important matter. We want a competent research officer. Perhaps the Minister has already a report from the officer who carried out the investigation last year, and it will be interesting to know the result.

Let me tell the hon. member for Griqualand (Mr. Gilson) that a good deal has already been done about means of feeding cattle. With regard to the planting of grass for stock I must ask the hon. member to come and see the special experiments we are making at Pretoria as well as at the agricultural schools. I have often asked agricultural unions to come and see the place in Pretoria but unfortunately enough use is not made of the opportunity. The hon. member further advocated that we should send stud sheep overseas to test the export market. I want to say in reply that the co-operative societies can take steps and we will assist them. At the agricultural schools however there is no large surplus of sheep, and the surplus is sold annually to assist farmers in improving the breed of their stock. The hon. member wants to know how many children attend the agricultural schools. The figures are: Stellenbosch, the permanent course, 18; special short course, 201; Grootfontein, 82 and 340 respectively; Cedara, 29 and 52; Potchefstroom, 31 and 102; Glen, 77 and 47. I should be very glad if the other provinces supported the agricultural schools as well as the Free State does. The hon. member for Aliwal (Mr. Sephton) spoke about stomach disease amongst lambs. I know that it does a lot of harm but I can assure the hon. member that we are constantly making enquiries to find an effective cure. Certain recommendations to give relief have been made to the farmers, such as keeping the stock out of the kraals, and this has assisted a great deal.

I want to ask the Minister of Agriculture why so heavy an amount is set down for farm labour at Grootfontein. We are very much interested in these agricultural colleges, and I would like to know whether the students contribute labour, or whether the amount set down is for native labour.

I want to ask the Minister if better provision cannot be made to stop sand drifting. I see that on the Estimates hardly anything—merely £750—is provided for that purpose.

I want to point out to the hon. member that the Forests vote comes later.

I should like to ask the Minister what the results of the experiments with regard to tractor ploughs have been. Have they been profitable on the experimental farms, and can they be recommended to farmers? There are numbers of difficulties which make farming almost impossible, and if those ploughs are satisfactory the farmers should learn the fact as soon as possible.

I would again call the Minister’s attention to the urgent necessity for an experimental farm for the Border district. That is a part of the country that has received a minimum of attention from the Department of Agriculture. The information which has been collected at highveld agricultural stations is often of little value to that part of the country. The climate is different, the altitude is different and the conditions vary greatly in other respects. Some of the best students from an agricultural college should be put in charge of a farm, and directed to carry out operations there that will be object lessons to the people of the district. The Minister may say that money cannot be afforded for this service. I would point out that other countries are able to have numerous experimental farms which are actually conducted at a profit to the State. I do not claim that the farm I ask for can be conducted without initial expense, but the expense or loss should be small. I cannot see what objection there can be to this proposal. It is of the utmost value to farmers sometimes to know what will not succeed as well as what will, and we ought not to mind whether the farm pays at first or not. An individual farmer is rarely equipped with the experience, knowledge and capital to enable him to conduct experiments for the benefit of the whole community. I can assure the Minister that if he goes into the matter carefully with the Minister of Finance my suggestion will not be turned down on the score of expense, and within a few years, such a farm should not cost the State anything but should be adding to the State Revenue. Above all, it would demonstrate to the farmers that the Department of Agriculture is a practical one, and that what they are teaching is of actual economic value to the farming community. I do not even ask that the Government should buy a farm there. There are plenty of farms that could be hired which could be conducted on a sufficiently long lease. I appeal to the Minister to give a promise that he will go into the matter. I cannot hope to get it on the Estimates now, but I ask him to seriously consider the matter. As a practical farmer himself, he will understand that an experimental plot and an experimental farm are two different things. The results you get from a plot are not always the results you get from a farm. It is an important matter, and if he looks at his agricultural map of the Union he will see that little attention has been given to coastal areas in the past years in the Union. This is a matter in which I have been interested for years, because I feel I am on right lines. Why, Sir, experts will tell you there is a difference in conditions in growing lucerne according to the altitude. These factors which are modified by altitude and climate should be made available to the farmers as the result of actual farming experience in the locality.

I want to invite the Minister’s attention to what the hon. member for Fort Beaufort (Mr. Hockly) has already mentioned, namely the large amount spent on the agricultural schools. I want the Minister to consider the employment of white labour at those schools, including Grootfontein. Employment at those schools will be of great benefit to the Europeans who can get work there. If we use white men there they will not only themselves learn a great deal, but there will also be an opportunity for their children to handle good stock and how to grow trees etc. We should like to see the system adopted on the basis of Kalkplaas and Elandsdrift in the Cradock constituency. The children will subsequently, if they progress, themselves become good farmers or they will be of great practical use as foremen on farms. We know that it will possibly cost a little more but even so it will not be necessary to employ the same number of Europeans as the natives now employed and white men will learn much. I do not want the Minister to make a promise to-day but yet I want to point out that the experience at the large wool co-operative societies in the handling of wool, was, that although white labour costs much more than native labour it is still more economic than the latter. I think that if we introduce white labour in our agricultural schools it will be an important up-building factor in the future of our country.

I would like to know the explanation of the Minister why the attendance at Cedara is so miserable as compared with that of Glen, Elsenberg and Potchefstroom. The parents of a good many youths who have in the past sent their boys to Cedara, have recently turned their attention to trade schools at Mooi River where the Government had appointed a superintendent who was a past master at his business—a first class scientific and practical farmer. As he was entirely fitted for his job and was making an outstanding success of it it is strange that he has been removed and sent down to the native territories, and there will be nothing comparable left for the boys who were anxious to have practical instruction. I should like to ask the Minister why is the attendance at the Natal School of Agriculture at Cedara so different to the other agricultural colleges; is it due to the fact that the Minister attaches greater importance to a knowledge of Afrikaans than that of scientific agriculture.

The hon. member for Greyville (Maj. Richards) asked why there are so few boys at the Cedara Agricultural School to-day, and states that it is owing to the great insistence on Afrikaans. That is a strange statement because the hon. member knows that if there is one agricultural school in the country where practically all the courses are still taken in English, it is Cedara. His remarks also show how little he thinks of Afrikaans and that he wants Natal to remain unilingual. No, let me say plainly that if the Natal farmers will not support Cedara, then the Government will have to consider closing the agricultural school there and rather consider establishing one somewhere else in the Union. There is a constant demand for agricultural schools, and there are many parts of the country which would welcome one. I cannot keep on a school that is not supported. I want to add that I feel the time has come for South Africa to be bilingual, and for Afrikaans to be acquired. The hon. member for Cradock (Mr. Bekker) urged the use of white labour at Grootfontein, and I may inform him that we are using white labour at Glen in the Free State. If it answers well there we shall extend it to the agricultural schools elsewhere. I cannot say, however, when that will take place because housing will be required and that means expense. We are, however, quite prepared to consider the matter, whether white labour can be used at Grootfontein. The hon. member for Fort Beaufort (Mr. Hockly) said that the expenditure on labour at the agricultural schools was too high, and he urged that the students should be used more. Let me say that the students during their one year course need all their time for their training so that there is not much opportunity for manual labour. Also it is always said that the expenditure on agricultural schools is too high, but it must be remembered that between 60 per cent. and 70 per cent. of the work is non-reproductive. The agricultural schools are not ordinary places simply working for a profit, but they are instituted for research purposes in the interests of the farmers and the country as a whole so that the expense is necessarily high. The hon. member for East London (North) (Brig.-Gen. Byron) has again asked for an experimental farm for the Border. I said last year that it was not only the Border that wanted an experimental farm, but that every constituency would like one. If the State is to establish an experimental farm in every district then I wonder what hon. members opposite will say about the increase of expenditure. That is a matter presumably about which they are so concerned. I want to say in passing that the Border has privileges because that area already has an experimental plot and an extension official, and I hope later to put one of the wool experts there as well. With this, however, they are not yet satisfied, but I cannot go any further. The hon. member for Klerksdorp (Mr. P. C. de Villiers) raised the question of experiments with tractor ploughs at the agricultural schools. Let me tell the hon. member that these ploughs are expensive and that the petrol is also very expensive. I wish to advise the farmers therefore to go slowly in the matter. Maize farmers on a large scale can use tractor ploughs profitably, but I cannot recommend them to the small farmer. My experience is that the cost is too much. When we produce our own petrol and prices go down, the position will be different, but at present the days of the trek ox are not gone in the case of the small farmer.

I see the following items are on the estimates for co-operative experiments at the various agricultural colleges and schools: Stellenbosch, £760; Grootfontein, £600; Cedara, £100; Potchefstroom, £150; Glen, £100. It seems to me that these figures are rather smaller than we might like to see them. Here is an opportunity for the carrying on of co-operative experiments to the great benefit of the farming industry, but unfortunately progress along these lines is not so well marked as it might be. Is the reason that the terms are not sufficiently attractive to farmers? Why is it that farmers are so reluctant in co-operating with the agricultural colleges in experimental work? Naturally it takes considerable time before beneficial results accrue from these experiments. I am not aware whether these co-operative experiments are confined to field husbandry, or whether they are extended to animal husbandry as well. Among the grain producing farmers of the mealie belt there is a marked desire that more experimental work should be carried out in the production of fodder crops, especially winter legumes. There is a splendid opportunity for the building up of a big trade in fattening store cattle in the mealie belt, but at present sufficient winter crops are not available. The cheapest way of carrying out experiments is by means of these co-operative arrangements between Government agricultural colleges and farmers.

The Minister’s reply is a very strong argument in support of my plea that it is high time that the instruction at the agricultural colleges be translated into practical form. The question is are these institutions teaching our agriculturists to farm at a profit? The instruction all round should be on practical lines. Experimental farms should not necessarily be a charge on the state, but might be made self-supporting. If, however, they are a charge that constitutes a criticism of the instruction they give at the agricultural colleges. In New South Wales there are 20 or 30 experimental farms on a full farming scale, and they return a net revenue to the state. That should gladden the heart of the Minister of Finance.

Do you think Government farming can be made profitable?

The Minister cannot dispose of it in a phrase like that. The Minister will not seriously contend that the farmer young men of South Africa are necessarily inferior to the young men of other countries. All I plead for is investigation, for these farms should not be a charge on the state, but if they are, there is something wrong in the system, and in a department spending a million a year, which by the way is not a penny too much, we have the right to demand that the instruction given is on practical lines. One cannot learn all about farms from books, lectures and papers, but I desire to compliment the agricultural department on its “Handbook for Farmers” which is one of the best publications emanating from any part of the world. Good as it is, however, it is not enough, and it should be possible to conduct these farms without trenching on the public exchequer. A great many people have an idea that poultry farming pays, but some years ago I took the trouble to collect the statistical information relative to the poultry farming at the five agricultural colleges. I found that notwithstanding the enhanced prices obtained for settings of eggs and pens of fowls from the prestige attaching to Government institutions the total receipts for the year did not pay for the hens’ food. Since that announcement no such particulars have been published. There is something wrong about that. The poultry division ought to be in a position to demonstrate that poultry farming does pay or that it does not pay. If it can be made to pay, we want to know the best lines on which it can be conducted. I am sure the Minister will agree that farmers feel something more is wanted to complete the system which up to a point, has been inaugurated with success by the Department of Agriculture.

I think it was the hon. member for Pretoria District (Mr. Oost) who was reported to have said in a flight of poetic imagination, that the best way to argue with an Englishman was with a stirrup leather and an iron at the end of it. That seems to be the method favoured by the Minister. I asked him quite a courteous question as to what, in his opinion, accounted for the falling off in attendance at Cedara which was so marked in comparison with other centres, and the Minister’s reply was that if Natal did not support Cedara better, as conducted according to his methods, it would be closed down. That is not a reply, and we want to know what is the reason for this falling off. There must be some explanation and I should like the Minister not to hit us over the head with a stirrup iron, but to tell me quite frankly why he thinks there is this falling-off at the college, because if he can discover the cause we may be able to arrive at a remedy.

The hon. member for Durban (Umbilo) Mr. Borlase) referred to the experiments which are being made at various agricultural schools and said that the amount on the Estimates for them was insufficient. Let me say at once that the Department feels that the amount provided is sufficient for the present, because the farmers contribute a considerable part of the cost of the experiment. Therefore the amount is adequate for the present. Then the hon. member asked whether the amount used for experiments is for stock breeding or agriculture. I may tell him that the largest part is used for agricultural experiments. We of course have the Veterinary Science Department, which experiments with stock, but the largest part of the amount is used for agriculture. Then the hon. member said that more fodder was necessary for stock. We have plenty of mealies, so much, that large quantities are exported, and in addition we have a considerable lucerne production which we hope will become still greater. Therefore I cannot see that there is much cause for complaint. The hon. member for East London (North) (Brig.-Gen. Byron) has already had a complete answer to his question. He says again that we must put farmers on farms and give them State support. We are not prepared to start that. The hon. member for Greyville (Maj. Richards) again asked what the cause is of the diminution of a number of students at Cedara. I think the hon. member has himself already given me the answer, namely, because a little Afrikaans is taught at that school.

I want to ask the Minister if there are any bursaries available for pupils at agricultural schools. If that is not so I want to ask him to consider making them available because it looks as if the agricultural schools at present are meant only for rich men’s children, although agricultural education is just as much needed by the children of poor people.

In reply to the question I may say that there are some bursaries available.

This House is nowadays full of young men and, at my age, I find it difficult to get on my feet quickly enough before you put the Vote. I want to ask the Minister if he could not arrange for agricultural members or for all members at the conclusion of the visit to Johannesburg at the invitation of the Chamber of Mines, to go over to Pretoria to see the experimental plots and also the Onderstepoort Laboratories. Then I want to refer to the question of testing overseas markets for sheep. You have your departments of Economics and Markets. I can conceive of no better way to get the necessary information than to test the markets of the world. If I were to ask what price I could expect for Merino sheep at Smithfield you could not tell me; your department knows nothing about it. I can see no better way than to send over to the European markets some trial shipments of slaughtered lambs. If that suggestion were put to the Agricultural Union I guarantee that every farmers’ association would support it and every farmer in this House would support it. I do press this point that steps should be taken to test the markets of the world for the Merino sheep of South Africa.

Vote put and agreed to.

On Vote 30, “Forestry,” £195,447.

I would like to ask the Minister what is going on at Graskop in my constituency. In the last few weeks a township has sprung up there. 250 wood and iron buildings have gone up and 250 families are being drafted there. Far be it from me to suggest it is a political garrison that is being established there, although it is significant that during the last session when I enquired about this, the Minister said these families were coming from Namaqualand. Namaqualand, apparently, has since somewhat disappointed the Minister and now the people are coming from George and Knysna. Why should 250 families be drafted at enormous expense from an extreme point of the Union where there is plenty of forestry work when we have numerous indigent families in the Transvaal itself? I am not trying to lay down the doctrine that Transvaal forestry areas should be the close preserve of the people of the Transvaal. I was struck the other day when the hon. member for Pretoria (West) (Col. M. S. W. du Toit) and other hon. members told us of their experiences, of the unemployment and the distress, which I can confirm from my own observations. I visited this settlement the other day. Quite a number of families are there, and I was oppressed with a sense of depression, and a feeling of despair. The married men get 6s. a day and have to pay rent for their house, and so on. They seem to have absolutely no future and to have reached a dead end. They are to be put there to plant trees. A more hopeless, monotonous work for white men for the rest of their lives I cannot conceive. I wish the Minister would tell us frankly what is going to be his policy. If for the rest of their lives they are going to dig pot-holes, I do not know what their future and that of their children is to be.

It seems to me that the hon. member for Barberton (Col. D. Reitz) is making fresh preparations to go to another place.

I always go where there is danger.

The hon. member now accuses the Department and the Government of having established a political settlement in his district. Who commenced the policy of providing work for the poor people? Was it not the policy of the previous Government to relieve the needs of the poor people by afforestation? And was it not their policy to build houses for the people on the settlements and to allow them to provide for their needs? That is precisely the policy we are pursuing, but now the hon. member disapproves of it. It seems to me that when we alter something and it succeeds, that the Opposition can describe it as the policy of the South African Party, but that when we follow their policy and things do not go so well, we are doing a terrible thing. The hon. member asks what is the reason for sending the poor people there. They must be given work, and as soon as, and in proportion as more ground under irrigation schemes becomes available, the people are sent there. They do not therefore always remain on afforestation. The hon. member said that when he left the people were in a depressed state. I want to assure him that we are doing everything to settle the people as comfortably and conveniently as possible. I am now receiving applications from men who were there, to be sent back again to afforestation. Can the position then be so bad? Then the hon. member asks why we have sent people there from the extremities of the country, and that I stated that it was intended for Namaqualanders. I never said that.

Why are not the poor Transvaal families placed there?

The Department of Labour is responsible for assisting unemployed and it sends the people to forest settlements, the railways or where roads are being constructed. At present there is much demand for work in the districts of George and Knysna. The afforestation is becoming less there and the Minister of Labour sent some of those people to Barberton. At present there is an official at Lichtenburg, where work is also being applied for, and some people from there will doubtless also be sent to Barberton.

There was not a single Transvaaler there when I left.

I have not investigated it, but must of course take the word of the hon. member. That, however, was some time ago, and there are probably men from the Transvaal as well at present.

I should like the Minister to tell me the result of the experiment with the snout beetles. It is a very important matter and we no longer know what to plant. A few years ago we planted wattle trees, but they were killed by frost, and if as a result of the snout beetle we cannot now plant blue gum trees we shall have to stop planting altogether. The snout beetle is increasing very fast on the high veld, and I hope special efforts would be made to supply us with the parasite.

I should be glad to know from the Minister whether better steps cannot be taken to keep back the drift sands. I notice that there is only £1,500 for this purpose on the Estimates, and that I think is practically nothing. The road between Gansbaai and Stanford is covered by the winds every year, and some of the best land on the Cape Flats is also covered. I fear that private owners will shortly be claiming damages from the Government.

I just want to say that there are parts of the country where drift sand is a danger, but the Department has combated it with success. It will continue to do what it can. With reference to the question of the hon. member for Ermelo (Co.-Cdt. Collins) about the snout beetle the department is aware of the seriousness of the position. Last year we put the parasite in many of the districts concerned, and in some parts they continued planting as usual. Even on the high veld where we feared that they would die as a result of the cold temperature in winter, we found that they remained alive, and we hope this year to place the parasite in larger numbers in Ermelo and similar places. Where the people want the parasite they have merely to make application and the department will try to comply with the request as far as possible. I may say that I no longer feel disquieted about the position because the snout beetles are no longer so active and can be got rid of with the help of the parasite.

Vote put and agreed to.

On Vote 31, “Posts, Telegraphs and Telephones,” £3,207,000,

I think we are all indebted to the hon. member for Winburg (Dr. van der Merwe) for the question he has put about telephone extension. We notice that private telephone mileage in the Cape has been increased to 12,617 miles, more than nine thousand more since 1924. That stands to the credit of the Government, and the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs, but at the same time I want to bring before the Minister the needs of the North-Western part of the Cape. This part of the country, and especially my constituency, has got very little of the extra mileage, but everyone acquainted with the position there will realise that it is unfair towards the people there, inasmuch as they inhabit a stretched-out area and have to travel as much as fifty to sixty miles to the nearest doctor. In some cases the patient dies before the doctor can give aid. Also in respect of touch with the outside world, and other parts, the North-West has been much neglected in the past. This district is larger than Natal and the Free State, and is nearly as large as the Transvaal, and if one looks at the length of telephone lines there everybody will realise that the interests of the people are neglected. In answer to the question of the hon. member for Winburg the Minister said that a revenue of £3 10s. a mile of telephone line is expected, but I want to point out that this creates an impossible state of affairs for stretched-out parts like the North-West. It cannot be expected that the revenue in those parts will be as much as in densely populated parts like the Western Province. I know that the Government and the Minister sympathise with the people there and I therefore want to ask them not to treat the North-West on the same basis as other parts of the country. Moreover it might be remembered that the people in the North-West have been forced into poverty on account of misfortune, and that it cannot be expected that telephones there should produce as much as in more densely populated parts. I want especially to urge that there should be telephone extension at Onderstedoorns by Bloksekolk, Karreeboomleegte and Zwartkop to Kenhardt. Representations have already been made in the past to the Minister and we feel that our request has not been properly considered and I should like the Minister to give his serious attention to it, and I also want to plead for telephone extension from Vanwyksvlei to Prieska, via the Bulte. That is a part of the Union as splendid as any other in the country, and if the people are given connection with the outside world it will mean a great deal for progress there.

I want to raise a question under the Merchants Shipping Act.

The administration of the Act falls under the Department of Finance.

The Act says that the Railway Administration shall draft regulations with regard to examinations for masters, mates and engineers. It is with regard to the examinations that I want to raise the point.

The administration of an Act can only be discussed under the vote of the department concerned.

May I make an appeal to the Minister. The Act says that the Railway Administration shall draft the regulations.

Which section?

Section 1 sub-section (3).

That refers to the conditions of things which obtained before the Act was passed.

That is the point I want to raise. South African born men are debarred from obtaining employment because of exemptions granted to men not born in this country.

This deals with the state of affairs which existed before this Act was passed. The administration of that Act was always left to the Department of Customs and Excise. The question of certification is now dealt with by my department.

I want to draw the attention to the grading of postmen for the purpose of pay. In Grahamstown a postman-sorter receives £180 per annum. In Port Elizabeth the postman-sorter receives £270 per annum, after five years service. The same grade of man at Port Elizabeth is receiving £270 in place of Grahamstown £180, because he is in a second or third grade office, although doing the same work. It is necessary for him to up-root himself and go to some other place or else forego promotion. A first class clerk is a first class clerk wherever he is and I would urge very strongly that you grade your officers according to the work they do. Do not hold them down merely because they are working in a second or third class post office. I would strongly urge that be done as far as the personnel of the post office is concerned. Then again many of these low grade officers are doing more work than similar grade officers in the larger centres of the Union. They have longer hours and have longer distances to travel in their work, and they are doing equally responsible work for which they receive no compensation. Another small matter I would like to refer to is the abominable stamps that are being served out.

They will not stick.

I would like the Minister to put his own stamps on his letters. You can buy a few dozen stamps and you will be lucky if you do not find half a dozen which do not stick properly. One cannot go about with a bottle of stick-fast, and it is a very annoying matter which has cost the stamp buyers a considerable sum of money. Then again with regard to telegraph forms, when you write on them the writing is legible on the other side, and they are a positive disgrace. If you write too hard it tears the paper or goes through into the next sheet. If the Minister can get stamps that will stick and telegraph forms of better quality he will do a service which will be appreciated.

I associate myself with what the hon. member for Prieska has said about telephone lines, namely, the indebtedness of the farmers to the Minister of Posts for extending the lines, and I want to add that the mileage since the Nationalist Government came into office has increased by 20,000 miles. While it took the former Government fifteen years to construct 4,000 miles, the present Government has in four years built 20,000 miles of farm telephones. We notice in the Estimates that £150,000 is to be spent on farm telephones, £40,000 more than the previous year. If this is so I trust that the Minister will bear in mind that there are certain parts in my constituency which have been treated in a stepmotherly way in the past. It is not so much in the part of my constituency which I originally had, but in the part which has been added to it. The Ladismith constituency is thankful for the lines we have, although there are so many parts not yet provided for, and I particularly want to refer to the connection between Plathuis to Sewefontein and Andriesburg and I want to ask the Minister of Posts if it is not possible to use the railway posts for the wires, with the permission of the Minister of Railways, and so reduce the cost very much. Then there is another part of the Laingsburg district which greatly needs telephonic communication, namely the line between Laingsburg to Koringplaas, a distance of about fifteen miles. The people there live far away in a remote area. The line will possibly not be economic financially, but the people there merely on account of the fact of their living so far away and developing the country, ought to have a telephone line putting them in touch with civilisation and to make their lonely life there pleasanter. I want to strongly urge the Minister to meet those people. I have already pointed it out to the Postmaster-General, and he adopted a sympathetic attitude. I therefore want to ask the Minister to provide the necessary amount for those farm telephones.

I would draw the attention of the House to the 17th annual report of the Public Service Commission on page 3 section 10. A matter apparently arose between the service commission and the late Minister of Posts and Telegraphs and it seems to me that it is of such great importance that I would like to draw attention to the fact that there is something wrong. I know the present Minister is a fair minded man who always wants to do what is right—and who is always anxious to do the right thing. I cannot follow the lines of the hon. members opposite who are always thanking the Government for what has been done, for the Government has done very little for Von Brandis. The fact that we want a new Post Office is very apparent. It does not come up to the requirements of Johannesburg. This constant moving of the centres of public works is most undesirable. Now it is proposed to remove to Von Brandis Square.

Business suspended at 12.45 p.m. and resumed at 2.21 p.m.

Page 3 of the report of the Public Service Commission draws attention to a circular issued by the late Minister of Posts and Telegraphs in which he says “several representations have been received from a large number of the personnel asking for redress of grievances,” and the Minister pointed out that these grievances in the first place should be submitted to the department. No reference in the Minister’s communication was made to the Public Service Commission, although the Public Service Act laid it down that commission should enquire into the grievances of officers. Evidently some difference of opinion must have arisen on this point between the various departments. If the Minister is correct, the Commission is entirely ignored, but that was not the intention of the Act which gives public servants the right of appeal to the Commission. I did not know that any Minister could lay some principle down contrary to the law enacted by this Assembly, simply because the procedure outlined in an Act of Parliament may inconvenience the Minister personally. This report is dated May 21st, 1929. It is not quite clear whether it refers to the period up to that date or up to December 31st, last year. Perhaps the Minister would be good enough to explain what is the position now, and whether the Public Service Commission functions, or whether he adheres to the decision which the previous Minister laid down.

I should like to call the attention of the House, not only to the desirability, but to the necessity of telephonic connection from Uitlanderskraal in the Zwartruggens district to Goedgevonde and Davidskatnagel. The public in that neighbourhood are completely deprived of all communication. It is a malaria district and when a doctor is required the people have to go sometimes very far to get into communication with him. I shall be glad if the Minister will give his attention to this and I hope that provision will yet be made this year for the line.

I would like to ask the Minister what is the practice of his department in regard to applications for farm telephone lines. Are they being dealt with in strict rotation? I have two complaints from the Quanti and Bolo Association, farmers in the district of Stutterheim who applied for farm telephone lines in June, 1927. They are still waiting to have their applications attended to. They complain that applications made subsequent to theirs have been considered by the department and lines have actually been constructed. Naturally that causes dissatisfaction. There is no question about it that these lines are necessary, and that the farmers have complied with the rules and regulations laid down by the department. One can understand that when there is a heavy programme of construction there must of necessity be a certain amount of delay, but I would like to be informed by the Minister that all applications are being dealt with in strict rotation, and that no preference is shown.

In view of the proposed expenditure of £10,000 on the new exchange at Bloemfontein, I would like to ask the Minister why it is proposed to install a system which is rapidly becoming obsolete, and what delay would ensue if Bloemfontein waited for installation of automatic system?

I want to talk as little as possible because I want to expedite the work of the House, but I think it again necessary to bring the need of a post office at Amersfoort to the notice of the Minister. I have already repeatedly approached him as well as his predecessor, and my request was supported by a petition with a hundred signatures, all without success so far. The department has already been paying £10 a month for several years for an inconvenient and inefficient building, although they could build a proper post office for £1,200 on valuable Government ground. The highest interest the Government pays is 5 per cent., and it would be an economy because the department would then be paying £5 a month for the new building as against £12 at present. We see £91,271 for new post offices on the Estimates, but the largest part of it goes once more, of course, to the big towns. It looks as if the large towns are getting palaces while we have to be satisfied with small cottages. I do not know whether Umtata is such an important town, but I see there is £8,500 down for a new post office there. I am not dissatisfied about that if it is necessary but I think if we can spend that amount at Umtata then I think that Amersfoort, which for years has been agitating for a post office, can expect one at £1,200, and we shall be satisfied with one at that price. I cannot enlarge about it on this vote but I want in passing to point out that the police station at Kokstad is to cost £15,000. I do not know whether the police at Kokstad are so important that they need a palace. Then I want to add something in connection with telephone lines on the countryside. I brought it to the notice of the previous Minister about three years ago and he then promised me that when a certain work was completed he would give his attention to the telephone lines in the districts of Wakkerstroom and Volksrust. I pointed out that telephone lines from there to the boundary of the Free State where there were twenty farms, were necessary. Up to the present we have waited in vain. It is useless to construct the line from Platrand Station or from Paardekop.

There is a small matter to which I would like to draw the Minister’s attention in connection with the telephone directory. I believe that for purposes of economy it is proposed to make certain omissions from the directory. I submit that any little saving the Department may effect by this means will be counterbalanced by very considerable inconvenience. I understand that because the telephone service is proving popular, in spite of the high rates charged, the directory is getting larger and larger each year, and in order to save expense in printing, it is proposed in future to cut out the numerical index involving about 30 pages, so far as Johannesburg is concerned. I would like to warn the Minister that if he takes the numerical index away he will be making the directory of very much less use, and will be endangering the advertising revenue. If it is necessary to economize in paper and ink, I suggest that he could, without seriously detracting from the usefulness of the directory, leave out the many wise precepts which appear in both languages in various parts of the book. It is not really necessary to take up space in the directory in order to tell subscribers that they should speak distinctly when making a call. There is much advice about matters of this sort which everybody knows instinctively without being told. If the omissions of these precepts is not sufficient, I suggest that the directory, which is for the use of the telephone subscribers, would be no less useful for this purpose if he eliminated the advertising matter altogether. In commerce if we find that business is flourishing we give our clients greater, not lesser facilities. When the post office instituted night telegrams they were so popular that they found they had more traffic than they could deal with, and instead of meeting the increased demand the Department discontinued these telegrams altogether. If the directory becomes more used the Minister may tell us he cannot afford to print it any longer and compel us to ring up “enquiry” for every call we make.

Bloemfontein has had an obsolete and inefficient telephone service and we thought that as soon as an alteration was made we should get an automatic system. Now, however, we hear that we shall get the old manual service, a set intended for East London. This is a matter about which the Bloemfontein Town Council feels very strongly, especially as Bloemfontein has been neglected in this respect for years. At first we thought that the installation which came from East London had already been in use there, but in conversation with the Postmaster-General I was told that it was intended for East London, but had never been in use there. I should like to be assured by the Minister that the installation of the manual system will not subsequently prejudice our chance of getting the automatic system. The postal department is now adopting a practice of introducing automatic telephones, and I may point out that Pietermaritzburg, a smaller town than Bloemfontein, already has an automatic system. Port Elizabeth also has it, and I hear that East London will also soon have it, and that it is intended to introduce the automatic system in Cape Town and certain places along the Rand. As Bloemfontein was neglected in the past with an obsolete and inefficient system we think we are entitled now to the best service, and I therefore hope that the erection of this new manual system will not prevent us getting an automatic one in the future.

When the late Minister of Posts and Telegraphs left his seat in the Cabinet we understood that the new Minister was going to develop automatic exchanges, but when I look at the loan estimates for this year I see practically nothing is being done. The hon. member for Bloemfontein (South) (Mr. Haywood) mentioned that a small exchange is going up there, and other new exchanges are provided for amounting to £4,000, but there is a decrease of £50,000 for provision for the development of existing exchanges. I see there are large amounts for farmers’ and trunk lines, and while I do not object to them I do object to farmers’ lines being provided at the expense of the urban areas, which is being done to-day. The Minister should consider developing more quickly, or rather not decreasing the rapidity of the development of the urban exchanges. I should also like to refer to the Welfare Officer who, I notice, still remains on the estimates. Older members of this House will remember that the post was provided by the late Minister, and it was not filled by a member of the civil service. I want to know whether the present Minister is going to continue this redundant officer, or going back to the previous arrangement under which the post office was run as a business concern, and the administrative staff looked after the staff and saw that they were properly treated. There was no intermediary between the administrative and the other staff. With regard to the annual figures of the post office, the House has no figures subsequent to March 31st, 1927. I do suggest, as this is a business department, they might be a little closer to their figures than two years behind. We ought to have the figures to March 31st of this year. Even a slack department ought to have its figures up to that date. It is impossible to criticise a department when none of its figures are published in time for criticism to be made while the figures are live, and not when they are only of use to be filed away, and no one is likely to use them.

I would like to ask the Minister whether he is able to make a statement on the points I raised in the main debate—on broadcasting and wireless telephony. There are rumours abroad that the wireless company is not able to carry on much longer. The country is anxious to know whether the Government would give it the assurance that broadcasting will be carried on in future. I pointed out the other day that broadcasting could be of tremendous educational value to the country as a whole. It is time for the Government to see whether it could not take over broadcasting, as the British Government did some years ago. Many people have spent money in purchasing receiving sets, and they are paying Government licences. That places a certain responsibility on the Government to see that everything is well with the company that carries on broadcasting. Personally I think it was a mistake to give the monopoly of broadcasting to a company that also carries on theatres and bioscopes. I think the Government should appoint a commission to see if it is not possible to have a national service of broadcasting, and also to enquire into the question of wireless telephony, which is a thing of great importance in the world, and South Africa will not be able to shirk its responsibility in that matter very long. I think something should be done also to retain wireless telephony in the hands of the Government, as I am very much afraid that also may fall into the hands of a private company. I consider it a matter of national importance that it should not. With regard to private telephone lines, I think the Government should speed up the construction of these lines. I notice that the Orange Free State has hitherto not been treated as well as the rest of South Africa. On the 31st March there had been completed in the Cape Province 12,617 miles, in the Transvaal 4,014 miles, in Natal 4,463 miles and in the Free State 3,884 miles. I am glad to see that the programme this year is a little better as far as the Orange Free State is concerned. I ask the Minister to speed up construction because so many farmers have been waiting for years for these lines. No less than 5,041 farmers are waiting for their telephone lines, having applied for the construction of no less than 12,298 miles. The hon. member for Newlands (Mr. Stuttaford) has tried to show that the towns are penalized for the benefit of the rural areas, but I do not know whether he can substantiate that. The Minister says the construction of these lines works out at £39 per mile, and the people are paying a subscription to the extent of £3 10s. per mile. That ought to pay both the interest and administration.

I should like to draw the attention of the Minister to the necessity of improved postal facilities for the Southfield area of the Wynberg district. There is only a postal agency there and the development of the area is such that an agency can no longer satisfy its reasonable requirements. In that area there is practically no delivery of letters. Letters which are addressed to the Southfield residents have to lie at the agency until called for, and after lying there, are delivered to a limited extent along the hard road. There is no facility for the dispatch of telegrams, and telegrams are only delivered at an extra charge of 6d. There is no facility for the despatch of parcels, and no facilities for postal and money orders. That is a growing district, a progressive part of the Peninsula, where a great many new buildings have been constructed, and where every day there are new houses going up. Yet the postal facilities are lagging behind the development of the district. The population down there is very largely a working class population to whom savings bank facilities would be of very great importance. I may say that it would not be necessary to build a post office, because the local civic association is prepared to find suitable premises at a low rent. They think they might get them for £4 or £5 per month; in fact they are willing to provide them rent free for a few months as an inducement. I hope the Minister will consider the requirements of that area. It would be a practical way of assisting in relieving the congestion of the crowded parts of the city to encourage the migration to the more open areas by providing the facilities I have asked for in this district.

I cannot neglect to speak upon this vote on behalf of my constituency. We have long been in need of a little sympathy from the Department. For the last eight years I have been pleading for better telephonic connections in Bechuanaland. When I leave my constituency and see the big net of telephones in the Western Province I can hardly believe my eyes. Bechuanaland is 32,000 square miles in extent and there are only 100 public telephone lines. Neighbouring villages like Kuruman, Vryburg and Schweizer Reineke are not even yet connected by telephone. The inhabitants of Bechuanaland are not there for pleasure, but to make their living and they are dependant on the telephone. We must show a little sympathy for the people on the outposts of civilisation. In the first place the connecting-up of the neighbouring villages referred to, must be done. Our need of farm telephones is extraordinarily great and the Minister must give special attention to it.

I would like to associate myself with the hon. members opposite in the matter of telephones. There is a tendency to curb the extension of farmers’ lines. In the Western area from de Aar to Knysna and Cape Town, only a sum of £12,000 has been put down to that huge area, and if you go to the Department and ask for extensions they will tell you the real culprit is the Minister of Finance and who will not give the Department the money. With the big surpluses the Government is showing, the country people expect something to be done. The only satisfaction it had, during the past four years an amount has been tentatively put on the Estimates and it remains there. The sum put down for this huge area is, I think a very small amount. Speaking as a former representative of the country constituency I find that the farmers are serious in their desire to get telephonic communication; not only is it of use in their daily lives, but it keeps them in touch with the various produce agencies. There does not seem to be that sympathy with the outlying stations that there should be when residents wish to communicate with doctors and others. I submit that there is not sufficient done for the development of the telephone lines in the country and I would advise the Minister to get more money from the Minister of Finance.

The hon. member takes it for granted that I am against the extension of farm lines, but that is not so. I think it is right that the country should have communication with the towns, but it should be done without hampering the development of the towns and additional money should be put aside for these lines. With regard to the service on trunk lines I was informed the other day that a man wanted to telephone from Oudsthoorn to Claremont and he was told at Oudtshoorn that he could not telephone to Claremont direct, but that he could telephone to the Central Exchange, to Woodstock, to Sea Point, but not to Claremont. It seems very absurd that when you connect up a place like Oudtshoorn with Cape Town it should be connected to any exchange in that city. When you get through from any distant places you cannot connect with anyone in Cape Town. I would like to urge the Minister to say what difficulties prevent Oudtshoorn from being connected with Claremont.

I cannot understand the reluctance of the Government in not taking sufficient money to make farm telephones. I think if there is one branch of the service which is paying it is farm telephones. The Postmaster-General told me some time ago that farm telephones pay and moreover they increase the volume of business on the main lines. Year after year we are asking the Government to increase the supply of telephones and I know of farmers who have waited three years. I cannot understand when it is so obvious and necessary a service, that the Government have been so reluctant in supplying these telephones.

As I understand this department, it consists of a number of public utility services which are expected to be self-supporting. The hon. member for Newlands (Mr. Stuttaford) complained that the financial report for 1928-’29 has not reached him yet. I want to assure the hon. member that the report has been circulated to all members, but the last report is not yet available. Arising out of that report is this fact, that the total profit made by this department during the last 12 months is £100,000. That is on a revenue of something like £4,000,000, and I think members will agree that is about the smallest margin of profit on which a department can run. That £100,000 is mainly produced from telephones. The profit on the telephones is about 2 per cent., which is small for such a risky enterprise, seeing that we have to erect lines many of which at the beginning are unpayable. There would not be a great deal of grumbling if we constructed farm telephones at a slight loss, but at the same time there must be a limit, and the department must see that it is not overloaded with an undue proportion of non-payable lines. So when people talk about a reduction in rates and extensions of non-paying lines they should bear in mind that there is only the amount of £100,000 available for that purpose, and that sum will not go very far. The Telephone Department is in very much the same position as the Railway Department, and in both cases if the departments were overloaded with non-paying lines, people who used the paying section will have to make good the losses incurred on the unprofitable sections. At time same time it must be remembered that business men reap a certain amount of benefit in the shape of increased business through the development of the country by the extension of the telephone and the granting of other facilities to enable the farmers to be brought into closer touch with the towns. The hon. member for Prieska (Mr. C. H. Geldenhuys), who complained that £3 10s. was an excessive amount for the annual rental of a telephone should remember that the average cost of putting up telephones is £39 per mile. Personally, I do not think the annual charge is too high. Of course, in some cases it may be excessive, but in others it is wholly inadequate, but if we strike an average we shall find that there is a slight loss which has to be borne by the town subscribers, but they benefit because the extension of the means of communication increases the trade of the towns. The hon. member for Albany (Mr. Struben) has referred to postmen and sorters in small towns in country districts not receiving the same wages as those paid for similar grades in larger towns. On the other hand, the responsibilities of the country officials are nothing like so great as those of officials in big towns. In making promotions from the country districts, the department endeavours to avoid sending the men to cities where the cost of living is high. We now return to the stamps which will not stick. In recent years the postal department has placed its orders with the Government printing works for the lower denomination of stamps, and apparently the complaints are made in regard to the halfpenny and penny stamps. We are informed that the Government printing works import the paper from the identical firm which supplies the firm which print our other stamps in Great Britain still, and it is guaranteed to be of the same quality as the paper on which those stamps were printed overseas. Personally, as a technical man. I attribute the complaints to the fact that insufficient gum is placed on the stamps. The gum which is used for stamps is made from vegetable matter, and I do not think hon. members would relish licking stamps the backs of which are covered with gum arabic.

Better gum would be better than the best explanation.

The paper is printed in reams, and it is quite possible that one ream or a portion of a ream may have been defective, but once the stamps are distributed it is most difficult to recall them. I do not think, however, that the complaint regarding non-sticking stamps is general. There has been no proof that further supplies are defective. The complaint regarding the alleged thinness of paper used for telegraphic forms will be inquired into. The hon. member for Von Brandis (Mr. Nathan) referred to a certain passage in the report of the Public Service Commission. Of course I am quite aware of what is contained in that report, but I should not be true to myself unless in these matters I gave the fullest recognition to the service associations in regard to representations which they wish to make. I do not think it is the function of these associations or of any other trade union to come with individual grievances to the Minister or to an employer. They are concerned with general grievances, especially when, as in this case, they have a public service commission whose duty it is to enquire into these individual grievances. I personally think that is the proper way in which these matters should be dealt with. I have not shown the door to any trade union or service association that has come to see me. An hon. member has made allusion to what he calls the removal of the post office from the present site in Johannesburg to Von Brandis Square. There is no intention to remove it from the present site, so far as the public offices are concerned. If the hon. member went upstairs and saw the conditions under which the people are working, unhygienic and cramped—it is a wonder they give service at all, let alone good service—he would see the necessity for making proper provisions for them. The telephone exchange is cramped, and it has to be extended. The idea is to transfer the working section of the post office to Von Brandis Square, but the counter will remain for the convenience of the public in the same place as at present. An hon. member has complained about the lack of extension of telephones in his district, and he wants special consideration given to the requirements of malarial districts. I am not lacking in sympathy in that regard, but on the other hand we should have every reason to blame the technical officers if we found ourselves landed with a large number of lines which did not pay and had no chance of paying. In some cases the demand is not for an extension of six miles. Some people ask for an extension of 150 or 200 miles. In my opinion the telephone follows the population, not the telephone first and the people following. We have to wait for these places to be populated before we incur this heavy expense, sometimes running into thousands of pounds. The hon. member for Cathcart (Mr. van Coller) asked me to explain the procedure followed in regard to these farm telephone lines, and to give the assurance that they were dealt with strictly in rotation, and that no preference was shown. I am not aware of any preference being shown. Personally I depend entirely on the technical officers of the department, and I am not influenced by anyone to alter their reports or depart from their recommendations. The practice, I understand, is this, that in proceeding to construct new farm telephone lines two considerations are taken into account by them. The first, of course, is the date on which the application was first made and to give, as far as possible, priority to the earlier applicants; and the second consideration is that the work in the district is more urgent than another. If we were to dodge about all over the country dealing with separate applications, first constructing a line at this side of the Union and then another at the other side, hon. members will quite understand that the system would be uneconomical, and we should have to charge a much higher rate. We can only lay down a rental of £3 10s., which is the lowest rate in any country in the world, if we build lines economically, by proceeding to do all the work in a given district at once. It often happens that even while work is in progress in a given district there will be a number of people who will ask for telephones at the same time, and we should be fools if we refused their custom, if we turned them down simply because they were the last applicants. Obviously the proper course to follow is to clear up the whole district at once. It often happens that when the workmen have left the district someone discovers he would like a telephone. It might be a long time before we are able to visit the district again. Except for the purpose of constructing on sound economic lines, and according to technical advice, no preference of any other kind is shown. The hon. members for Bloemfontein (North) (Mr. Shaw) and Bloemfontein (South) (Mr. Haywood) have asked me to explain the position in regard to the proposal to spend £10,000 on special work for the Bloemfontein exchange. In the first place the complaints that have reached me seem to be based on two misunderstandings. There seems to be an idea that under normal circumstances we were contemplating installing automatics in place of the present manual plant. In the opinion of the department the installation of an automatic exchange at Bloemfontein is not warranted by present circumstances, and as a matter of fact there are more pressing needs in some of the larger towns. In the second place, there seems to be an idea that Bloemfontein is going to be given a worn-out and cast-off plant which has been used in another town. Many hon. members will remember the time when the Government considered that automatic exchanges were in too experimental a stage to warrant large expenditure. Therefore they stopped installing automatic exchanges, and as a result of the policy then followed it was decided to cancel an automatic exchange plant which had been ordered for the new East London post office. At the same time a manual plant was ordered and certain expenditure authorized to alter the building, which had been built for an automatic plant. At places such as Port Elizabeth. Pietermaritzburg and others we found that the automatic exchanges were working successfully and the change over was being effected without imposing any hardship on those who had been previously employed. Consequently we changed back again in East London, and ordered an automatic plant. Unfortunately the new manual plant ordered had progressed too far to be cancelled. Therefore we have one of the most up-to-date manual plants on our hands, something far in advance of anything we have in Cape Town and Johannesburg. I thought I was going to receive gratitude and not blame on this matter. Bloemfontein have an old-fashioned but by no means worn out plant in use, and I thought they would have gladly welcomed the change to this new plant, which would fit their exchange. Really they ought to thank me for giving them a much better plant. The hon. member has asked me whether it will not delay the installation of an automatic plant. It will not. That is still a long way ahead. The hon. member for Wakkerstroom (Mr. A. S. Naudé) has questioned the policy of hiring post offices, and pointed to Umtata getting a new post office. He tried to draw some analogy that Umtata was unduly favoured. That is not so. As a matter of fact we hire many post offices throughout the Union. We have a growing need for public buildings which exceeds our capacity to build considering the arrears to be caught up. I will not say it is an economical policy to hire them, but I do say it is far better to hire buildings than to have no post office at all. Nearly all the postal agencies are in hired buildings, which sometimes are given to us and no rent is charged. If a place is entitled to a graded office with a staff, it will not be overlooked. In Umtata it is a case of pressing necessity. The hon. member for Turffontein (Mr. Sturrock) objected to certain alterations in the telephone directory, and said that the list of numbers in the early part of it had been cut out. He is quite correct in supposing it was done on the grounds of economy. The list was something apart of a telephone directory, which is not intended to take the place of an ordinary directory.

Oh, no.

Yes, it does. Various public bodies were consulted in regard to the matter, and I think I am right in saying that the Postmaster-General at that time met the Chamber of Commerce and explained to them what the position was, and they agreed to the deletion. In other provinces the directories are printed at no loss to the state, for the sake of getting the advertisements, or we even make a small revenue from them. It is due to the frills, if I might call them that, of the Transvaal directory that a loss to the state occurs. I agree with the Chamber of Commerce. The hon. member for Newlands (Mr. Stuttaford) said he thought I had given the assurance that we were gradually going to provide for the installation of automatic telephones in place of the present manual system. Well, to some extent I did give that assurance; but it was qualified, and I said we had not the slightest intention of scrapping existing manual systems for the purpose of installing automatic machines, but that when manual plants were worn out and replacement became necessary we should follow the procedure of installing automatics. I might point out that the economy effected and extra service given to the public as between the manual and the automatic is not so great as to warrant a great loss of capital.

What about running expenses?

The economic effect is not so great that it would warrant scrapping existing plant, and installing plants which would entail great capital expenditure for their installation. The hon. member also asked about the welfare officer, whom he described as redundant. Well, I do not agree with him in that regard. As he knows, I had nothing to do with the appointment of this officer, or the method of his appointment. I want to say I find him a very efficient man, well suited to the job. The post of welfare officer is not one which you can fill by picking a man from the service on the grounds of seniority or ordinary experience. To begin with, he must have some special knowledge of welfare work.

Can you define his duties?

No, you certainly cannot. I know of one very useful question which might save the State quite a lot of money in future, which the present welfare officer has successfully enquired into. Take the question of sick leave, which for lack of proper attention results in a great loss to the State. This officer has taken steps which may save considerable cost on that account. There are many things of that kind which may be included in the work of the welfare officer. I am glad to give the House the assurance that the present welfare officer is an efficient person. The Public Service Commission were so satisfied that they have made the post a graded one. The member for Winburg (Dr. van der Merwe) dealt with the question of broadcasting and wireless telephony. Complaints have reached me frequently with regard to the service of the broadcasting company, said by many people to be defective, and the rumour has reached me, from several quarters that the finances of the company are not sound. The Broadcasting Company is a purely commercial concern, and the only way in which the Government comes into this matter is that we give them a licence under the Radio Act, and we collect their fees at a commission, to cheapen their running costs, because of the educational value of their work. That has saved them the expense of a big organisation for the collection of their fees. I don’t think members would ask at the present juncture that the State should run broadcasting in the same way as it does telephones and telegraphs. I have asked the directors of that company to depute one of their number to come to Cape Town to discuss the matter with me. We are to discuss this matter in a few days’ time. I shall take steps to assure myself that some improvement will take place in the service, and that the company is in a financial position to carry on its work. Probably the matter will be straightened out satisfactorily in the course of the next few days. With regard to wireless telephony I am as keen as the hon. member that it should be kept within the confines of the work of the State. Wireless telephony is no longer an experiment; it is in use every minute of the day across the Atlantic and in Europe. The costs have been brought down and most of the concerns in existence are paying concerns. I think it is absolutely necessary that we should develop it on State lines. At the same time I do not see any great demand for it at the present moment. I don’t think there is a great number of persons who will pay something like £15 for a three-minute conversation with someone across the seas. When there is a demand for it the Government will probably consider the desirability of establishing a station of our own. The hon. member has urged the speeding up of the construction of farm lines. Something like £40,000 extra is to be provided this year on the loan Estimates for farmers’ lines.

Therefore we are speeding up. We are undertaking telephone construction this year of a mileage almost equal to the total mileage which existed in 1924. I think the hon. member will agree that is speeding up. This question is not only one of money. There is the matter of the future of the persons who are trained for this work. The arrears of work will be caught up in a few years’ time. What are we going to do then with the large number of people who have been trained to do this work? Are we to tell them there is no more telephone construction to be done and turn them away? It will be seen that we cannot without hardship train too many persons for this work. The hon. member for Wynberg (Mr. Roper) says that a postal agency is not sufficient at Southfield, and that a full blown post office is required. I may point out that there is no profit on the postal side of the department, though there is on the telephone side. The weakness with regard to this matter is that we have listened too sympathetically to requests for increasing allowances to persons who act for us at postal agencies, and in the second place, to requests for the establishment of full-blown post offices before the circumstances warrant their establishment. I am quite sure the hon. member realises that these are public utilities, and that they have to be carried on without loss to the State, and that they cannot pay their way if we enter into the uneconomic propositions some hon. members put before us. A delegation called upon me and told me that there were premises available, but the premises are not the only thing. As soon as we establish a full-blown post office we have to appoint officers at higher rates of pay. We are watching the situation as far as the suburbs of large towns are concerned. The hon. member for Bechuanaland (Mr. Raubenheimer) represents a constituency of 32,000 square miles, and he complains that it has been sadly neglected in the matter of telephones. While I sympathise with him, my sympathies do not allow me to go so far as to say we are prepared to go to the expense of the building of uneconomic telephone lines, and if we have not acceded to such requests, it is through a desire to do the right thing, and to see that the people of the country are not saddled with loss on uneconomic propositions such as we are sometimes asked to entertain. The hon. member for Aliwal North (Mr. Stephton) suggested that we should place enough money on the Estimates to meet all the demands for telephones. As I have said before, unless we take a very big risk in training a larger number of people to do work which they might not be needed for in the future, that we can do much more than we propose at present to do. As I understand the policy of the post offices in this direction it is to go on steadily increasing the network of telephones throughout the country, so that there is a gradual increase of telephones all over the country, rather than in one particular spot.

I should like to make an earnest appeal to the Minister to build a telephone line from Vermaaklikheid to Riversdale. Vermaaklikheid is a small village twenty-two miles from Riversdale with a population of about 400 or 500 people. The inhabitants are respectable, hard-working gardeners, many of whom are landowners, but as the Minister knows, gardeners are often poor. Riversdale is their nearest town, but they are to a great extent cut off because they have no telephones. There are few of them with their own transport, and in time of sickness a cart has to be hired at the cost of a few pounds and this plus the doctor’s fees presses very hardly upon them. In connection with the marketing of their produce also the absence of a telephone service is very inconvenient. If they had a telephone so that they could enquire the prices before they send the produce to the market it would mean a good deal to them because when a farmer has once sent his produce to the town he must sell it, and the dealer can give whatever he likes. I am certain that the telephone line will pay and that the large farmers near Vermaaklikheid will ask to be connected up with the Central exchange there. When I was there last I heard that the Government had refused to build a line unless some of them were prepared to guarantee the sum of £180 against any loss. I must, however, point out that the people are poor and that nobody there can guarantee £180. I feel so sorry for the poor people that I am prepared to be surety myself if it is necessary. The Minister is a member of the Labour party and he ought to know what a hard time the poor people have. He therefore ought to assist the people at Vermaaklikheid, even if they are not townsmen. I want earnestly to ask him to have the line built. Further, I should like to support the remarks of the hon. member for Woodstock (Mr. Buirski) about the extension of farm telephones in the Swellendam district. Extension of telephones is necessary for that district and I want the Minister to bear in mind the need of the grain farmers and other farmers there and to give them the chance of having the telephone lines they need.

I hope the hon. the Minister will endeavour to settle all disputes that may arise. Under the Act it is stated distinctly every officer is entitled to go straight away to the Public Service Commission. That commission points out in the Post Office Circular of the 19th March, 1928, that—

So if it is laid down by the post office that the man in the post office service cannot go straight away to the Public Service Commission, I want to know if the Minister still maintains that his predecessor was right, or is it competent for any official to go straight away to the Public Service Commission.

I do not think I am called upon to express an opinion. If the Public Service Act lays down that any public servant with a grievance has access to them, nothing that a Minister can say can upset that. The law would prevail.

I was interested in the very detailed reply given by the Minister to the hon. member for Albany (Mr. Struben). At any rate, he gave us a very detailed technical reply, and the House would like to know what steps are definitely being taken to give the stamps the same capacity as the hon. minister for sticking. I want to mention this question of the telephone directory. In Johannesburg we have had a numerical list showing the names of the people who are telephone subscribers. I hope that will not be done away with, and I think it is of the utmost value. Sometimes you receive a telephone message to ring up a certain number, but no name is given, and naturally you are anxious to know whether the person is worth ringing up or not, as it may be only a parliamentary candidate asking you for your vote. Unless the numerical index is retained in the telephone directory you do not know who has been calling you. As to the automatic telephones, naturally I sympathise with the introduction of improved methods, provided that the position of the present telephone operators is not prejudiced. Will the Minister tell us what steps he has taken to install automatic telephones, whether he has obtained any technical advice on the matter, and if so from whom. In view of the fact that the Minister’s predecessor did not introduce automatic telephones, and the Minister is reversing that policy, we would like to know on whose advice he is doing this.

I just want to bring a few things to the Minister’s notice. Firstly about the necessity of a telephone line from Albertinia to Wyers River. I have already repeatedly urged the building of the line. The place is twenty-four miles from the nearest town and the people can get no communication. I went and pleaded with the Minister and I shall be glad of his assurance that the line will be built. Then I want to support the hon. member for Bredasdorp (Maj. Van der Byl) in his request for the Vermaaklikheid line. I have for years been struggling to get that line and I hope we shall now be successful. The hon. member for Bredasdorp says he will be the surety, and if he guarantees the amount I cannot see why the line cannot be built. It is a very unfortunate position for the people living far from the nearest village without communication. The line from Albertinia to Wyers River and the line to Vermaaklikheid are lines still required in the district. I hope the Postmaster-General will recommend the Minister to have those two lines constructed.

Does the Minister consider the time has arrived for looking into the question of the price of telegrams? The raising of the tariff from 1s. to 1s. 3d. was purely a war measure, but it has remained for more than ten years. Surely it is high time to return to the old price. The Minister of Finance told us the other day that the country lost £400,000 by reducing the letter postage from twopence to one penny. Surely there must be something wrong there, seeing that a reduction in the postage rate generally leads to an expansion of business. Then the 50 per cent. additional charge for sending telegrams on Sundays should be removed. It is only in cases of urgency that people send telegrams on Sundays. Prior to the war the post offices in the larger centres did not close until 8 p.m., but during the war the closing hour was altered to 6 p.m., which is quite long enough but all the same the restriction in the hours of business must have saved the department a considerable sum. It is strange that a letter can be sent from England to South Africa for l½d. while we have to pay 2d. to send a letter from South Africa to England.

Will the Minister be good enough to give us a detailed statement regarding the progress that has been made in regard to aviation? We notice that aeroplanes are being assembled and there is competition for aerodromes. This matter is of first-class importance to the commercial community.

Has the Minister received any complaints regarding the unsuitability of the metal poles used for telephone construction? The poles used for this purpose in my constituency have proved unsuitable. It is false economy to use poles of that type. During the first heavy gales we had after the lines were constructed the poles were twisted and bent. Instead of supporting the wires they were being supported and held in position by the wires. In one section of 15 miles there I have in mind are few upright telephone poles. I hope the Minister will accede to the applications for the construction of farm telephones which have been registered with the Minister’s department for some considerable time by constituents of mine, and in respect of which I hope provision has been made on these estimates.

Johannesburg business men do not want the telephone directory to be used as a general directory, but they strongly object to the removal of the numercial index. Has the Minister not received a letter from the Johannesburg Chamber of Commerce expressly stating that it was opposed to the deletion of the numerical index from the telephone directory? I was present at the meeting in Johannesburg when it was agreed to send such a letter. But Johannesburg is not the only chamber. If the Minister wants a protest from chambers of commerce I can promise him he shall have it, because commercial people are very definitely against his action in this matter. We will back him every time in removing the frills, but here he is removing one of the essential garments, and we think that is an improper thing to do.

I should like to know from the Minister whether provision is to be made for a wireless installation at East London. I notice under another vote that tugs are being provided with wireless, but what is the use of that without a wireless installation to receive the messages at the port? A message was sent overland about a fishing boat in distress. A tug went out from East London and searched for two days and then came back and found the boat safely in harbour. Had there been a wireless installation it would have saved a considerable amount of expense and also the discomfort caused to the men who went out to search. This is a matter of urgency for Buffalo Harbour and I would like to know whether it would not be possible to have that wireless installation put in right away. I think there is a two valve set there at present but it is insufficient to even give communication with ships in the roadstead. I should also like to know whether recommendations from the Aero Club regarding the subsidising of light aeroplanes have received consideration and what is the Government’s policy in regard to that.

I want to come to the assistance of the Minister in connection with this index in the telephone book. It seems to me that certain people love to have mysterious calls and then find out by surreptitious means who the caller is. If a person wants to speak to anyone he should leave a message to telephone Mr. Brown. No, so and so. If they do not give the name no notice should be taken of the message. It is purely a business proposition. If someone goes to the Minister’s door and he tells his wife to say he is not at home unless the caller gives his name is he not justified in doing that? The same thing applies to this question of giving a telephone number. There are times when it is useful to have this index, but we cannot have it both ways. If I receive a message to telephone a particular number I throw it aside, but if the name of the caller is given I telephone that number.

I want to thank the hon. member for Langlaagte (Mr. Christie) for assisting me. It may be that this information is useful, but personally I do not think it is necessary to the telephone directory. Furthermore, when it costs a large sum of money it is a matter for consideration. Quite apart from the merits of the case we could only go back to the old system at a very great cost indeed. The hon. member for Riversdale (Mr. Badenhorst) asked about various farm telephone lines. I cannot carry in my head all the details with regard to the large number of schemes we have on hand. We can however give details where these lines will be built. With regard to the request of the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg who asked us to consider the question of the reduced price of telegrams, I think that is a matter for the Minister of Finance to decide. We are making no profit which we can give back. He spoke of the 50 per cent. increase in regard to Sunday telegrams. I have not the exact information why that was made, but in every other class of work I know, where people are called upon to work on Sundays, overtime is paid, and I suppose the extra charge is in connection with that. The hon. member for Woodstock (Mr. Buirski) asked me a question with regard to aviation. I do not think this should be under this vote at all, as it is not related to this. I do not think my department should undertake to provide aerodromes unless they are for defence purposes. Whether the Government will give a grant to light aeroplane clubs has not yet been decided. But on what grounds are these grants to be made? If they are for the purpose of training men for defence purposes there may be some grounds for it, but if for the purpose of training men to earn their living, I see no reason why the State should step in any more than it does for the training of other people. The only ground I can see for the State training persons is that they should be of some service to the State.

The conveyance of mails.

For that we pay. As a matter of fact, aviation is only in its infancy in this country, and is a matter which perhaps we shall have to consider in future. I want to thank the hon. member for Klip River (Mr. Anderson) for the information he has given, and I can assure him the matter will be attended to. As regards East London, I believe this is a small wireless station owned by the railways and not by the Post Office. We cannot afford to build wireless stations all round the coast. We have a number at present, but if it is for harbour use, I think it is the duty of the harbour authorities to extend their present wireless system to meet their needs.

I want to point out that as far as outlying districts are concerned, where they have made individual applications for telephones, they are under a grave disability. Some applicants have had their name on the list for three years; we have no guarantee that they will be attended to, and we may have to wait for another three years. The hon. member for Cathcart (Mr. van Coller) has mentioned that some of these men have offered to pay for transport. I can mention one instance where farmers agreed to pay for the transport of material from the station to where the plant was to be erected. But tenders were called for, and the department had to pay £94 for that transport, besides other charges, which is a very unbusinesslike way of conducting affairs. Where you have individual applications that cannot be dealt with by the big construction gangs a technical man should be sent to farmers on condition that the latter are prepared to supply all the rough labour and transport, so that with the assistance of one or two handymen, they can fit up the various plant, otherwise they have to be left for a long time. It should be given careful consideration, for the reason that the telephone is of tremendous social assistance and for increasing business; it is also very useful in connection with stock thefts as you get into quick communication with the police; and recently by this means they caught a gang of eleven who had been making depredations for a long time. Sympathy without aid is like mustard without beef. I would like, however, to voice the appreciation of the farmers for what has been done, but we want the department in some way or other to increase the efficiency.

I do not know whether the Minister has answered my question with regard to telephonic communication to Oudtshoorn.

At present it is not possible to get direct communication between Oudtshoorn and Claremont, owing to local difficulties, but this matter is being attended to.

What advice has the Minister had in connection with automatic telephones—the general policy?

interposed.

Has the Minister had any expert advice on the matter, and if so, I want to know whether it was given by his own officials or whether he engaged some other advisers.

There has been no general installation of automatic telephones, but I have had plenty of advice with regard to that matter.

I fancy I gather what the hon. member for Troyeville (Mr. Kentridge is trying to get from the Minister. The question is, did he get any other advice in addition to that of his technical advisers in regard to the installation of automatic telephones, and how they should be run? I think the Minister ought to tell us whether he relied solely on his own engineering staff, or whether he got advice from any other part of the world, and if he has gone outside of South Africa for advice, who advised him and what the advice was. I want to know whether the Minister was actuated by a belief that we have not got engineers in this country who are capable of advising on this question. Take this question of automatic telephones. The Minister tells this House practically what I told the House on a former occasion, namely that it would be a very costly thing to institute automatic telephones, and also that the saving in working cost would be insufficient to warrant any change over from the one system to the other, and that nobody yet has advanced the argument that the one is infinitely better than the other in results. Why is it that the Minister has now decided to reverse the policy of a former Minister, and now agrees to instal automatic telephones which cannot be installed in the country districts as well? That means a dual system. There is no advantage, no better service, no cheaper charges, and at the same time you are closing or restricting avenues of employment. I notice in the press that a very strong deputation has waited on the Minister of Labour asking him to find employment for men who are out of work, and yet while this is taking place, we have the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs restricting employment. I want to know why the Minister has changed the system in East London when the system has definitely failed at Cambridge, a little town near East London, where there is an automatic exchange. With regard to the question of broadcasting, I wholeheartedly support the suggestion made by the hon. member for Winburg (Dr. N. J. van der Merwe). I hope the Minister desires to act in accordance with that suggestion, and I also hope that he will have much greater success with his colleagues in the Cabinet than I had when I endeavoured to have the broadcasting system taken over by the Government. I tried, but failed, and I hope he will have more influence with his colleagues than I had, and that the result will be the taking over of the broadcasting system by the State. I view with alarm the closing down of that system, and particularly the danger of its falling into the hands of a monopoly. I would like to indicate to the hon. the Minister that there are thousands of miles of communication telephonically to-day by means of the wireless system. Who can say that in a few short years we shall not find ourselves confronted with a wireless system of telephony? I say that you have got to go very slowly and carefully in revolutionizing your system by the installation of automatic telephones, seeing that you may have to re-revolutionize it a few years later. In no country in the world where the automatic system has been installed has it proved to be cheaper than the manual system. Some hon. members queried the question of the cost of the service to them. I may say that this is the cheapest telephonic country in the world, with the exception of Norway, despite the arguments brought to bear by the hon. member for Newlands (Mr. Stuttaford) with regard to the dearness of farm telephone lines.

I said nothing about the cost of farm telephone lines.

But the suggestion was there, and the hon. member certainly used the expression, “Don’t extend your rural telephone system at the expense of the towns.” What did he mean by that?

What I said.

In spite of that, you have in South Africa the cheapest system in the world, with one exception. [Time limit.]

The hon. member for Troyville (Mr. Kentridge) asks what technical advice has been asked for in regard to this matter. Let me, in the first place assume that before automatic telephones were installed in the first place some sort of technical advice was obtained. That was before my time. I know of no automatic exchange which has been installed during my time. I understand my predecessor got technical advice before automatic telephones were brought to this country.

I want information, but I rather despair of information being given by the hon. Minister. I am not one who believes in bringing intellects from overseas into this country. When the Minister tells us that he is going to get experts from the British post office to advise over the heads of our own officers, this House is entitled to be satisfied whether the officers we possess are not capable of giving satisfactory advice, and whether the official he is employing is a more capable man than the experts from his own department. I should like to know whether that was one of his own adventures.

I should like the hon. Minister to tell us whether it has been laid down that any minimum number of inhabitants must be in an area before that area can be provided with a post office. There are over 5,000 people served by this postal agency in Southfield, and I would like to be able to show to the Minister convincingly that a post office would be justified there.

I want to ask the Minister what his attitude is with regard to telephone lines in the north-west. He has not made it clear whether he will give special attention to those parts, in view of the fact that in the past they have been so much neglected.

I understand it has been a feature of the post office administration in Cape Town that all the coloured postmen have been located in the suburban post offices instead of Cape Town, and that there is a decided difference between the salaries paid to the coloured postmen, although they do the same kind of work, not only delivering all the letters on their beat but do the sorting as well, and the grade for sorters in the Cape Town post office is much higher than the deliverers in suburban offices. The old rate of pay for coloured postmen was £180 per annum. This has now been reduced and a new grade introduced with a maximum wage of £168. I would like to know if the Minister approves of the differentiation of pay on the basis of the differentiation of colour.

Having had an expert from England, I would like to know what is to be the policy of the hon. Minister in the future. It seems to me that the Minister himself is not quite clear on the point. He tells us the automatic telephones have been placed in a position here only in a half sense, not in a full sense. I want him to clear that up. I supported the hon. member for Newlands (Mr. Stuttaford) some years ago with his automatic telephones, on a basis as to whether machinery could take the place of human hands, and I think we should support that theory so long as it is for the greater benefit of the community and of humanity. Progress goes in the direction of mechanism, in getting things done mechanically. My colleague, when he was Minister, said “Your substitution of the manual by the automatic system would mean a very slight advantage plus a tremendous amount of unemployment.” This House is entitled to know as to whether the Minister is going ahead with the advice given him by this outside expert. Does the Minister regard the opinion of an expert from overseas as of more value than that of ten of his officials for whom he has had nothing but praise? If the Minister has definitely made up his mind to adopt automatic telephones the House should know the reasons which have led to that conclusion. Personally I favour automatics so long as the change over is gradual and no one suffers from the change. As representing the Labour party we claim we have the right to know why the Minister has changed his mind. In the event of the Minister adopting the policy of the overseas expert will he say to-day that not one of the telephone girls or other telephone employees will suffer from the change? Will the Minister be definite on the point? [Time limit.]

I want to read Standing Order No. 90, which is as follows—

On a point of order: Is that why I was stopped?

Your time had expired.

I think it was very unfortunate the way the Chairman read the rule out.

Will the Chairman kindly tell us why he drew attention to the rule at this stage of the proceedings?

I did not refer to the hon. member for Langlaagte (Mr. Christie), but several members have not only repeated their own arguments but have tediously repeated the arguments of other hon. members. That is the only reason.

This is the first occasion I have intervened in this particular subject.

That is why I said that I did not read the rule because of the speech of the hon. member for Langlaagte.

I anticipated on the ground of tediousness that the Chairman would read the rule when the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs was speaking.

The hon. member for Langlaagte says he differs from the hon. member for Benoni (Mr. Madeley) on the question of the introduction of automatic telephones, and I am certain that the hon. member for Troyville (Mr. Kentridge) is sufficiently modern in his views to agree with his colleague from Langlaagte. They are making a great deal of the question of experts, but they seem to have lost sight of the fact that years before the hon. member for Benoni became Minister of Posts and Telegraphs our own experts made the strongest representation in favour of automatic telephones. We sent an expert to Australia, and he strongly recommended the installation of automatics. Surely the Minister, in view of his predecessor having turned down automatics, did the right thing to obtain the opinion of another expert. I am confident that if the Minister obtains experts from any up-to-date country they will confirm the view of our own experts on this subject. The hon. member for Langlaagte is still worrying about the bogey raised by the hon. member for Benoni that the installation of automatic telephones would close avenues of employment. I am told, however, that in no country in the world has any telephone operator been thrown out of employment owing to the installation of automatics. We have had experience at Port Elizabeth, Pietermaritzburg and other places, and there is not a single instance of a post office official losing a day’s work because of the adoption of the automatic telephone. The hon. member for Benoni suggests that we should delay introducing automatics because of wireless telephony. On the same argument we might just as well have waited before we built railways and scrapped ox-waggons because possibly we might be able to use flying machines instead.

I wish to point out that hon. members cannot have a Budget debate now. The administration or the policy of the Minister is under discussion.

I only want to say in conclusion that I believe every hon. member is in favour of the course which was followed except the hon. member for Benoni (Mr. Madeley).

The Minister has not yet told us why he went outside the country to get an expert, not to advise whether there should be automatic telephones, or manual telephones, but to advise as to the lay-out and the general policy, and when the present chief Engineer of the Post Office went across to Australia and made that report, a very valuable report, the question arises why he has been overlooked and over-ridden and advice taken from somebody from outside who knows nothing whatever of the conditions in South Africa, who can only report upon the question of automatics per se and not in relation to the geography or population of the country. He himself had to get the information from the chief engineer and the Minister himself admits he has not yet reported. How is it that the Minister now proposes to revolutionise the system? When he tells us not one person has been turned out, if he looks at the estimates he will find that they are no longer telephonists on the permanent staff, they are only temporary hands, and it is admitted by the Postmaster-General that they were put on the temporary basis in anticipation of automatic exchanges as a system throughout the country, which means, of course, their discharge at some time or other was anticipated. Whether you dispense with one or more of these telephonists, you are closing up that avenue of employment to white people in South Africa. I want the Minister to tell us why he sent for that expert. Let him tell us. That is what we want. I also want him to tell us why immediately after he came into office, not now, he intimated through the press that he was going to institute automatic telephones. What can he know about this system? What information or experience has he got? No, he was just going to reverse the policy of the former Minister of Posts and Telegraphs. Is the Minister still continuing to charge the Wireless Telegraph Company of South Africa for terminal telegrams at the rate of 1d. a word? Will the Minister of Finance tell me whether he acquiesces in the action of the present Minister of Posts and Telegraphs in withdrawing the demand that the Wireless Company should refund the £25,000 for the previous year that they underpaid to the Government, or that was overpaid by the Government?

Yes, I have acquiesced on legal advice.

Yes, the same legal advice as I had. There has been no difference. The same evidence is before the Government to-day as was before me, and one of our highest legal experts gave me his personal opinion—and it is at the disposal of the Government free, gratic and for nothing—that we had a cast-iron case and that it was our business to get that £25,000 a year from them and to charge the Wireless Telegraph Company the same terminal rates for telegrams as are charged to the ordinary man in the street. That is the agreement. I suppose he got his legal advice from the Wireless Telegraph Company, but the fact is the best legal advice that could be obtained was obtained and the Government attorney also gave the same advice. But immediately the Minister came into power and I went out, the whole proceedings were dropped. Very significant!

The hon. member for Wynberg (Mr. Roper) has asked whether the difficulty in regard to the post office at Southfield is a difficulty of population. Partly that is so, but after all these questions have to be decided more or less on the basis of the revenue from a post office. If in the opinion of the department sufficient revenue would be accruing the department would not stand in the way. We have a large number of post offices where the revenue hardly exceeds, in some cases is less than, the amount spend. The hon. member for Prieska (Mr. C. H. Geldenhuys) has asked me to give special attention to the extension of telephones in the north-western districts. I will do that. The hon. member for Cape Town (Central) (Mr. Bowen) has asked me whether I agree with the differentiation in pay on the ground of colour. No, I never did agree with such differentiation and I never shall. I am not aware that it exists, but I will look into the matter. In reply to the hon. member for Langlaagte (Mr. Christie) I assume that the question on which expert advice was wanted was settled before I came into office, when the question of the installation of automatics in South Africa was decided upon. I took it they had that advice at the time and I took it that not only had they the advice of an officer of their department, but from elsewhere also before they installed them. These telephone exchanges according to the reports we get are successful. It is no longer a question of experimenting We can see how they are working and judge for ourselves, and in the opinion of most people in this House and outside they are working with success. As I said in the earlier part of the year we are going to install automatic telephones when the present plants are worked out. To give a categorical undertaking that no person is to be deprived of employment, or is to work at an equal rate to that received at present because of some invention which is of greater use to the community is being installed is something I am not prepared to give. As to the question of the hon. member for Benini (Mr. Madeley) has asked, I explained very fully that we acted on the advice of the Government attorney. It is quite true he was also the adviser of the hon. member. That advice was open to different constructions. The construction I read into it was that under certain circumstances, viz., if the arbitrators agreed to the words in dispute being referred to the Courts on their merits without reference to other matters the Government might succeed, but if the arbitrators refused to refer the case to the Courts and the case was considered in all its aspects we should lose. Considering all the surrounding circumstances, we could not succeed at arbitration, and because of that it was withdrawn.

That is not very satisfactory. The Minister knows that one report was made by the Government attorney upon very insufficient information. He was given the Act, which made it possible, in fact almost probable, that the arbitration proceedings would fail as far as the Government was concerned, but when subsequently given the agreement under which the wireless company and the Government are acting, it clearly laid down—clear as crystal— that there was no question that the Government could succeed; and even if the arbitration proceedings did not succeed, it was still for the Government to say that these conditions should apply if the arbitration proceedings had finished. Why are they not gone on with now? Are they afraid of the wireless company? Is the Minister still on the downward path? Is he concerned with the press? He is not doing his duty to the country, and in the interests of big finance which is controlling the wireless companies, he is differentiating as between the ordinary citizen of the country and the big financial corporation, which is really Marconis, which at the present time has control over all the wireless communication over the world, because it has this merger. Will the Minister tell me he has no power, whatever may be the result of these arbitration proceedings and the opinion of the legal gentlemen, to say that they must pay the ordinary rates under the agreement which exists. How can he tell me he has no claim against this company? The only doubt was the possibility of human nature creeping in the arbitration proceedings. The Minister has let the country down to-day in not insisting on that payment—£25,000 the first year; and that is increasing. The directors of this company in order to dissipate a little of their profits are getting £2,000 a year. The citizen has to pay 1s. 3d. for 12 words, and yet this company is paying 1d per word, and a large proportion of their messages consist of from five to seven words, so that they are paying a little less. I say the Minister is wanting in his duty to the country in not insisting on the company’s coming up to the scratch.

I think a very serious charge has been levelled by the hon. member for Benoni (Mr. Madeley), not only against the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs, but against the Minister of Finance and the Government generally. The matter should not be allowed to drop there. By the interpretation of the present Minister it is held that the claim is not just. But the taxpayer comes into play. The hon. member for Benoni, when Minister of Posts and Telegraphs, claimed £25,000 from some capitalists, and said that the present Minister has fallen from grace and is going to release these capitalists from this payment, which is a serious matter. Surely we cannot allow this to go by without drawing the attention of this committee to it. I think we should not let this vote go through without having the fullest explanation. I suggest that a commission be appointed to enquire into the whole matter. The hon. member for Benoni (Mr. Madeley) who filled this most important post has lodged a serious complaint.

I made the demand.

He made the demand upon the capitalist. The present Minister has allowed the demand to slide, and the country is being robbed of £25,000. I suggest to the Minister of Finance that a commission be appointed in order that a full enquiry may be made into the matter.

Vote put and agreed to.

On Vote 32, “Public Works,” £1,088,606,

May I ask the Minister a question. First, I want to pay a very high tribute to the Secretary for Public Works, whom I regard as a very loyal gentleman. What I wish to ask is whether it is a fact that the Minister is having some difficulty with the provincial administration of the Orange Free State with regard to the standard rates of pay.

I do not exactly call it a difficulty, but I had a letter from the Administrator of the Free State a little time since in which he suggested that outside the specified areas of the building trades agreement contractors should be allowed to pay what wage they liked. The hon. member knows that the custom is to pay the rate paid in the nearest scheduled area. I replied that if the wages paid in those districts were lower than in the adjoining areas it would mean that the best workmen would gravitate to the highest paid centres. The Administrator is going to lay the matter before his Executive before doing anything in regard to it.

Vote put and agreed to.

On Vote 33, “Lands,” £177,104,

I would like to ask the Minister if he would give the House a statement of the outstandings due under the Lands Settlement Act up to the 31st March, 1929. The latest available information is contained in the Auditor-General’s report, which shows that up to the 31st March, 1928, the outstandings amounted to £374,890. I would like the Minister to say to what extent the outstandings have been reduced by capitalisation, and also how much, up to the 31st March, 1929, has been written off as irrecoverable. Included in that amount of £374,890 is the sum of £158,000 odd representing interest on principal. How does it come about that nearly half of the arrears is represented by interest on principal and rates? I always understood that interest on principal was a first charge in moneys received. If that is so, it is difficult to understand how the huge sum of £158,000 could be outstanding in respect of interest on capital.

Every year about £500,000 is voted for land settlement. I do not think it is nearly enough. The placing of men on the land is one of the finest and wisest policies you can adopt in this country. I should like to see the Minister put a far larger sum on the estimates than the amount set down at present. I would also like the question of the division of the money between the provinces gone into. At present it is divided on a percentage basis; that is, the percentage of applicants which come before the board. About 25 per cent. of the applicants are approved of. That means that if the Transvaal has 100 applicants, 25 applicants are approved of. If the Free State has only 25 applicants, only six can be approved of. The result to-day is that the Transvaal is getting as much money as the other three provinces put together. I would suggest that say a sum of £80,000 should be given annually to the different boards. Seeing that the Transvaal has two boards it would start with £160,000. Let us give this £80,000 for the period of nine months, and when the nine months is over let any balance remain in a general pool for further use amongst the boards. The reason I suggest this is that the boards have nine clear months to work on. We can then select better land and better applicants and the country will get better security for its money. To-day unless the boards buy they might find themselves in the soup and have no money at all. I can assure you, sir, that the boards in the Cape, Natal and the Orange Free State are in accord with my suggestion. I do not think the Transvaal is in accord with my suggestion as they get the lion’s share. I trust the Minister will give my suggestion a trial for one or two years.

I should like to refer to the elephant in the Addo bush. The herd of elephants there is the only one of its kind in the world. In the last five years they have not been in the Government reserve at all, but on the Harvey’s farm, drinking their water. The Harveys have loyally kept their word not to kill any elephant, but I can see that we shall have to absolve them from their promise. I do hope the hon. Minister can extract sufficient money to purchase additional ground there. For five years the elephants have not been on Government ground owing to lack of water, and it is hard on the adjoining owners. I am informed that owing to inadequate supervision the place where the elephants should be are a breeding ground for vermin, and the farmers are beginning to complain. I hope the Minister will try to procure better supervision over the reserve. Certain farmers in the neighbourhood are in the habit of chasing their livestock into these reserves which tends to keep the elephants away from the reserve. I think the Government should also take steps to provide water there for the elephants. It is true that boreholes have been put down, but nothing further has ever been done and no water has ever been brought out of the boreholes. There is no drinking water available. The solitary ranger lives at the extreme end of the reserve where he is not of much use. I had hoped that the hon. Minister would study the question and do his best to save the elephants. I fear one of these days the elephants will break through to the Sundaysriver Valley and will do a great deal of damage and cause an outcry which will result in their being shot. Some years ago the South African party Government got a professional hunter who killed 90 of these elephants—a biological crime of the first magnitude which I hope it will not be necessary to repeat. The hon. minister has got down £5,000 for the Kruger National Park. He has been an enthusiastic supporter of the game reserves and he will know how popular this is to the people of this country, and its popularity has grown enormously. It is a great attraction to our own people as well as people from overseas. We are inundated with applicants to view this park and these applications are growing at an astonishing rate. We are very grateful to the Government and they have played the game, but funds are now inadequate and we cannot come out with the present allowances. We have recently been reduced to raising an overdraft on personal guarantees of the members of the board, and I am sure the Minister will see that a bigger grant should be given. It is a venture which in the end should pay for itself financially. It is rapidly approaching such a realization, and I think within the next five years the game reserve will pay its way. The hon. Minister should not look merely at the financial side of the matter. The hon. Minister knows that access has been given across the various rivers and to-day it is possible to penetrate into the reserves and to see a part of the unspoiled Africa as it was before the white man came. There is no similar spot on earth to rival the attractions of this particular area. I hope the Minister of Lands will impress on the Minister of Finance the question of more adequate finance. I should be glad to know whether the hon. Minister of Lands, being on the Lebombo Flats, can do anything in the way of surveying. I hope the Minister will tell us something about the Lebombo Flats. He knows the ground very well and I think it would be a disastrous matter to throw the ground open to smallholders. I do hope the hon. Minister will give assurance that he has relinquished his original idea of cutting it up into small blocks and putting comparatively poor men in there. The poorer a man is, the less chance he has of surviving in an unhealthy area.

I thank the Minister of Justice for the reply he gave to a question I tabled on the 9th instant regarding the Sommerville Game Reserve, but the answer will not satisfy me.

That point does not arise under this Vote.

I just want to say a few words on the speech of the hon. member for Barberton (Col. D. Reitz). I think the Government will appreciate that when the Kruger game reserve was established we were unable to estimate the cost for the development of that great area, and now that it has been opened for two years we see how much is required there. The less we now have to spend the longer it will take before the overseas visitors and the public of this country will come to travel through that area. If however in the next few years we spend a larger amount in developing that area, many more visitors will come, and even people who are not rich will be able to travel comfortably through the area. We are now already receiving applications from schools to travel in parties through the game reserve, and there is nothing more valuable in teaching the children to appreciate the value of our game than a visit to the reserve. We must be able to arrange with the principals of the schools for the whole school to visit the reserve. We require a large amount at the present time, later it may possibly not be so much required. The Kruger game reserve will in a short time be a centre that everyone has an opportunity of visiting.

I hope the Minister will be able to give us some more information regarding Sunday’s River. I appreciate that it is owing to the Minister’s beneficent action and his farsighted view that the settlers are there at all now. What is now agitating the settlers it whether there will be sufficient water for their land under crops. Undoubtedly the original scheme was too wide, more land being sold with irrigation rights than there was water to irrigate sufficiently. The Minister might also inform us what is the present position at Lake Mentz, particularly with regard to the danger of silting up. That was a danger which occupied the minds of the construction engineers and it is understood that they took special precautions. There is a good deal of uneasiness at present. I would like to reinforce the sentiments of the hon. member for Barberton (Col. D. Reitz) as to the preservation of the Addo Elephants. There is no doubt this country is capable of deriving a large and ever-increasing revenue from tourists, more especially from their visits to the beautiful southern coast of this Cape Province.

I first want to reply to the hon. member for East London (North) (Brig.-Gen. Byron) in regard to the Sundays River settlement. It is difficult for me to make a statement now, because this matter was referred to the Irrigation Commission for investigation and report. The Commission has just issued a very voluminous report which I received only two or three weeks ago. It contains different recommendations, and that report is now under consideration and I cannot go into the details now It gives full details about the whole settlement from its very inception, and it states what should be done in the future. There is no doubt there is a danger of Lake Mentz gradually silting up. A certain amount of silting has already taken place, but, of course, it is a matter for the engineers to see what can be done.

‘The hon. member for Carolina (Mr. W. H. Rood) and for Barberton (Col. D. Reitz) have advocated more expenditure on the Kruger game reserve, and I may point out to them that I have put £1,000 more for that purpose on the estimates this year so that the amount is now £5,000. I fully agree with my hon. friends that the criterion is not so much the direct revenue, because apart from the fact that the reserve is of the greatest importance to our own population, and for the rising generation, who can see the wild animals in a state of nature, there is the further fact that more tourists come to South Africa every year and visit the game reserve. Rest houses must be built for the visitors and roads must be made so that they can see the reserve, and in connection with the expenditure on this we must bear in mind that the tourists spend money in our country and on our railways, which cannot be directly credited to the expenditure on the reserve. It would be wrong to only place the direct revenue against the expenditure of the Board of Control of the Kruger game reserve. According to what I have heard and read I am convinced that we are attracting more visitors every year, and that the chances of doing so in future are excellent. While speaking about the reserve I also want to refer to the remarks of the hon. member for Barberton about the elephants in the Addo bush. Here I may remark that I should like measures to be taken at other places as well for the protection of wild animals. I am looking into the matter now, and I may say that the idea is to put all the game reserves in the country under the control of the board which is now only responsible for the Kruger game reserve. As hon. members know, the other game reserves in the country come under the Provincial Councils. I think it will be much better in the interests of the country if all the reserves came under one control and then the grant to all would come out of the central treasury. I am dealing with this, but it takes time, because there are questions as well in connection with the land which have to be prepared. It will surely be futile to proclaim game reserves if there is insufficient ground for the wild animals to walk over. The hon. member for Barberton was quite right about the elephants in the Addo plantation. They are of great interest as they differ from the kind we have in the North. As a result of the unfortunate shooting in 1921 the elephants have not only diminished in number but were so frightened in their reserve that they left it, and are now wandering about in other places, such as the land of Mr. Hartley. The difficulty is to get them back to the reserve again. The hon. member knows that I have bought additional land and exchanged the outspan belonging to the Divisional Council in order to enlarge the reserve, but this has not assisted us so far. Moreover the boring for water was a failure at the start, but in the last borehole we fortunately got good water and the Irrigation Department is putting up a windpump.

Is the hole in the middle of the reserve?

I think it is more to the east. In any case, good water was found. We are having a windpump erected and a dam and trough built, as well as a place where the elephants can roll in the mud. If we take further measures on the lines mentioned by the hon. member I think we shall be able to prevent this kind of elephant being exterminated. The hon. member knows that we were always anxious to have it become a national park. The hon. member also referred to the Lebombo Flats. As he possibly knows the original idea was to build irrigation works there because the water can be taken out there by the usual diverting bank and no storage dam is necessary. There is sufficient water and land. I was there in 1925, and someone with years of experience there told me then that there was a danger of the ground becoming salt, and he mentioned certain indications. I had the matter investigated, and subsequently an expert made a somewhat unfavourable report so that I decided, at any rate provisionally, to build no irrigation works there, but rather if it were suited to lay out the ground in farms of from 1,200 to 1,500 morgen. Subsequently the Minister of Irrigation approached me and said that as it was a good scheme he would like to have the ground re-surveyed to see if it was as bad as the report stated—because as stated in the report itself, it was not a thorough and effective survey. If it appeared not to be so and the ground appeared actually suitable for irrigation then of course it would be put under water. We shall then, in view of the unhealthy nature of the area of course have to apply the tenant farmer system and to provide the people with proper houses as well as have proper supervision so as to exclude the danger of the ordinary man, who would not build a proper house, going there. If however it appears that the ground was so unsuited as stated in the first report, then I should be obliged to sell the ground in farms for ordinary cattle farming and dry farming. The hon. member for Hottentots Holland (Mr. Faure) spoke about the distribution of the available money under the Land Settlement Act. The hon. member knows that I have often discussed the matter with the Chairman of the Land Boards to try and find a better method than that hitherto followed. A better method has not yet however been suggested. If we were to reserve an amount for each province, it would be a quite arbitary amount, and no one would know beforehand whether applications would be received or not. According to his scheme therefore, we shall have to wait nine months and if no applications came in the money could no longer be used because it would only be a few months before the year was over and in that experience no new applications could be dealt with and the transfers passed. Another difficulty is the question how we can then distribute the money. We cannot take the great expanse of the area as a basis, because parts of the land are unoccupied and others are fairly densely populated. Nor can we take the population as a basis because half the agriculturists in the Transvaal are not Transvalers but came in recent times from the Free State, and Cape Province, and in some cases also from Natal, bought land in the Transvaal and established themselves there. I want also to point out that the number of applications varies very much. Last year 500 applications came from the Cape Province, more than a thousand from the Transvaal, just over 200 from the Free State and 130 from Natal. We cannot therefore distribute other than in proportion to the applications. There is yet another difficulty namely that the amount per applicant in the Transvaal is much less than in the Cape, the Free State and Natal. £1,500 is the highest sum which can be granted to an individual and the average is £1,350, but in the Transvaal the average is between £700 and £800. If we adopt the hon. member’s scheme we shall have the position of one province wanting to buy still more land, though the amount is too high for the other provinces. I shall be glad if a better method can be suggested, but so far we have not found one. I hope to have another meeting with the Chairman of the Land Board at the end of the year to discuss the possibility of adopting some other method. We are trying to get the most honourable and fair division of the available money.

The hon. member for Klip River (Mr. Anderson) asked me something about the outstandings. These are the figures. Out of a total of £6,000,000 this year there is a total outstanding of £365,700. There was a recovery of £65,000 more than the previous year. With regard to capital expenditure we do not get interest always when it is due; there is always an arrear but it comes in later on and it varies from year to year.

How do you account for the interest being such an enormous sum being £168,000.

We have a sum of over £6,000,000. The amount written off to date is £982,292. In Zululand we wrote off £240 for each house. I must add that there are still some recommendations from the Board which are being investigated and this will be done before the next session of Parliament.

Vote put and agreed to.

Vote 34, “Deeds,” £51,585, put and agreed to.

Vote 35, “Surveys,” £79,741, put and agreed to.

On the motion of the Minister of Finance it was agreed to report progress and ask leave to sit again.

House Resumed:

Progress reported; House to resume in Committee to-morrow.