The hon. the Minister indicated to us here last night what a multitude of facets this Department of Planning has, so much so that every representative can probably choose a particular section of that Department which he regards as the most important to his constituency. In the light of this, the function of the Department which has to do with the determination of separate residential areas for the race groups and through that the orderly arrangement of our coexistence is probably the most important to me personally at this stage. The United Party now accepts this principle, and we therefore probably do not have to argue about it any further. But if they want to apply themselves to the practical implementation of this policy, then we may expect constructive criticism in this field from the side of the Opposition as well, instead of mere attempts to score political points. It is precisely in this spirit that I want to pay particular attention to-day to the situation in respect of the proclamation of group areas and industrial areas. In this process of the proclamation of areas the investigation committee of the Group Areas Board naturally fulfils an extremely important function, and it is precisely about this that I should like to exchange a few ideas. I want to ask to-day that the investigation committee should give urgent attention to the determination of proper and appropriate buffer areas for the effective physical separation of the race groups.

Sir, at this stage of the investigation this question of buffer areas may probably not appear so topical, but there are various factors which arise in this process of the development of the group area which can make the situation untenable in future, so untenable that the whole object of racial separation may be frustrated by them. Sir, I am not theorizing now as far as this aspect is concerned, because we have real problems in this connection, and I also have real problems in this field in my constituency in particular. But, Sir, you will allow me to add at once that I have only the greatest admiration for the exceptional understanding with which the hon. the Deputy Minister and his Secretary of Planning, Mr. Van Niekerk, are handling and trying to solve this vexed question. By way of local investigations and many discussions they have already spent days on only one particular case in my constituency, i.e. that of Tiervlei. But I venture to suggest that the hon. the Deputy Minister will not be able to carry on in this way; he will burn himself out completely if he has to deal in such an intensive way with every problem of this nature that comes his way. In other words, we shall have to prevent similar situations from arising in future, or see to it that they arise as little as possible. Far greater attention should be paid by the investigation committee to the factors which can influence the future development of a group area. I am not saying this in any spirit of reproach towards our investigation committee; the investigation committee is probably doing it already, but then we should like to have the hon. the Minister’s assurance on that point. Sir, the determination of available and future public transport is of vital importance. the availability of trade facilities, the situation of the industrial areas and other labour matters are only a few additional factors which determine the direction of movement of the various race groups.

This is precisely where the determination of proper buffer areas is of vital importance to us, It is no use having proper physical separation between the residential areas when the non-white population nevertheless have to move through the white residential areas in enormous numbers to their public means of transport on their way to their daily places of employment. In this way friction is intensified rather than eliminated. I want to say today that we must be prepared to go to any amount of trouble and expense and to apply all our ingenuity to try to put matters right where this situation has already arisen. But more than that, in future we shall have to investigate intensively and scientifically all these contributory factors, of which I have mentioned only a few in the course of my speech, even if it should delay the proclamation of specific group areas for a while. These scientific investigations will become more and more essential to us, particularly here in the Cape Peninsula, as the population densities in the various areas increase. That is why it may also be necessary for us to take a second look at old proclaimed areas in order to see whether the buffer areas which we created there in our wisdom in the past, are still serving their purpose and whether it is not necessary to streamline matters there as well. In this tremendous task resting on the Minister and his Deputy, and in particular on the Department, i.e. to effect this orderly arrangement in respect of residential areas, we want to wish them every success and we hope that we, on our part, shall be able to show appreciation and to offer our co-operation at all times.

I just rise to reply to one or two matters which are still outstanding. The first is in regard to Indian farms, which was raised by the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District). I may inform the hon. member that the matter is being investigated by a research fellowship under the guidance of a steering committee for incorporation as part of the guide plan which is being drawn up by the Pietermaritzburg-Durban Regional Planning Committee. A report from the research fellowship is anticipated by the end of this year. The regional plan will indicate such areas as are suitable for occupation by Indian agriculturists.

Thank you for the reply, but do we accept then that the principle is established that they shall be allocated farming land?

I do not want to give a decision on that now, because I do not want to anticipate this report. We will have to judge the report when it is before us. The fact of the matter is that we have Indians to-day who are dependent on farming for a livelihood and this Government has never been unsympathetic towards the specific form of livelihood of any population group.

†Then the hon. member also inquired about the allocation of R250,000 for research. I may inform the hon. member that it was allocated to the following institutions: The Universities of the Orange Free State, Cape Town, Natal, Potchefstroom, Rhodes, Stellenbosch. Witwatersrand, the Rand Afrikaans University and the University of Port Elizabeth, the University Colleges of Fort Hare, Western Cape and Durban, and also the Research Institute of the Southern Universities, the Namib Desert Research Station, the Institute for Medical Research and the South African Museums. It was also used for 19 South African students doing research overseas.

*Then one last matter. I see according to a report in Die Burger of this morning that the inference may possibly be drawn that the Divisional Council of Cape Town is loath to undertake housing projects. I should like to make it very clear that I did not say that by implication or intend it in that way, because in contrast with the Cape Town City Council we are receiving full co-operation from the Divisional Council, and I want to thank them for that and express my appreciation for it.

The hon. member who spoke just before the hon. the Minister started off by saying that we accept separate residential areas, and I want to start off by saying that we are pleased to hear that at last hon. members opposite are in agreement that we accept separate residential areas. [Laughter.] It is all right for hon. members to laugh, but at least we on this side of the House know which party we are in. On that side of the House they do not know whether they are in the “verligte” Nationalist Party or in the “verkrampte” Nationalist Party. We have never had any doubt as to where we stood in this regard, but what we do suggest is that in many cases the removals that do take place could take place with a great deal less hurt to the individuals concerned and with a great deal more investigation before they are undertaken.

I should like to ask the hon. the Minister one or two questions before dealing with the main point I wish to raise. That is that according to the report of the Department of Planning on page three there is an amount set aside for the investigation of housing, design and construction. I should like to ask the Minister in what way this duplicates the work of the Department of Community Development, which also undertakes similar investigations in regard to housing, so much so that we have had the experience of the previous Minister of Community Development taking extensive trips overseas to study this particular aspect. I would would like to hear from the Minister whether his Department is duplicating the work of the Department of Community Development.

I would particularly like to deal with the Grey Street complex in Durban, but before doing so I would like to ask the Minister whether he does not think it is about time that new group areas declarations should at least be halted until such time as those which are already in the process of being declared have been cleared up. I say this because what is happening is that the Government continually goes on declaring new group areas, but in the meantime it is merely adding to the existing chaos. Surely the first priority is to see that those areas already declared are properly developed and that the necessary housing is made available, with schools, hospitals, etc., before we add to the chaos by declaring further areas. I would also like to ask the Minister, because this falls under the Department of Planning more than under the Department of Community Development, what special qualifications do the members of the Group Areas Board have for the job that they are doing.

They are much better qualified than you are.

I could very well ask the hon. member for Klip River what special qualifications he had to work on the committees to which he was appointed.

Amongst other things they must be Nationalists.

That is quite clear. They must be Nationalists, but they need know nothing about the particular group which they are proposing to move, or the particular area in which they are carrying out investigations. [Interjections.] Some of the injustices that have been committed by the Group Areas Board would not have been committed if the members of that Board were better qualified to carry out the functions allocated to them. Also, when the Group Areas Board is investigating a particular race group, if a member of that race group were at least co-opted to that board, they would not make so many mistakes. Here we had an investigation carried out just recently in the Grey Street area of Durban. Will any member of this House tolerate the uncertainty which has occurred in this particular area? As far back as 1963 the then Minister of Indian Affairs said that Grey Street would remain Indian, and he repeated this in 1964. Yet in 1969 the Government comes along with a Group Areas Board investigation. While this sort of thing takes place, is it any wonder that people are entitled to query the fact that too often the various race groups are moved from areas and the element of greed is the underlying motive? Because this is the suspicion with which one is left if one is told as far back as six or seven years ago that the area would remain as it is and then suddenly they come along with a new investigation. What permanency is there in South Africa for a person living in any group area if at any time the Government can come along and have an investigation into that area? That might even happen to the hon. member for Klip River. His area might one day be investigated by the Government to decide whether it should remain White.

But you know we do not lightly do that.

No, you do not do it while members of the board are Nationalists. They will not do that to other Nationalists, but what I am saying to the hon. the Minister is that at least when a particular race group is being investigated, a member of that race group should be co-opted to the board, because then some of these mistakes which occur would cease. We had the instance in Durban where an Indian area was declared and there was no provision made for a cemetery. These Indians had to carry the coffins on their shoulders to the cemetery, the nearest cemetery being 15 miles away. If a member of that particular race group had been on that board investigating that particular area, this would not have happened.

But talking about Grey Street, why investigate Grey Street at all? The Indians in Grey Street have been there for 100 years. It is 95 per cent Indian-owned and 97 per cent Indian-occupied. The vested interests are worth over R200 million, and only economic disaster could result if this area is declared anything but Indian. Anybody living in Natal, even as far away from Durban as the hon. member for Klip River, would appreciate that Grey Street is typically Indian, that it is entirely Indian and should remain so. Why investigate Grey Street at all? Has the Government not got enough to do; has it not sufficient problems? Has it supplied sufficient houses? It has moved people all over South Africa hither and yon, but it still has not supplied the housing. The hon. the Minister of Community Development knows that in my own constituency eight years ago they decided to move the Coloureds, but they still do not have sufficient houses for those Coloureds and they are still living in that constituency. In other words, they are still living where they are and they do not know whether they are coming or going. So I say to the (Minister in the name of these people who are being treated in such a manner, that he should at least clean up those areas which have already been declared before he goes ahead and declares other areas. Talking about Grey Street again, I notice that the Chairman of the Board criticized the Press publicity that was attached to the Grey Street investigation, but I want to know why he should do this. Surely Press publicity is essential. The Act itself lays down that the investigation has to be advertised in the Press, and surely that is an invitation to the public at large, and to the Press in particular, to put forward their views. How can the Chairman of the Board then criticize the Press and say that they are pre-judging the issue? I suggest that it is a good thing that the Press does so, because it does highlight the sort of thing the Government is doing through a board such as this, which I repeat is highly unqualified for the tasks entrusted to it. It is all right for it to investigate an area and call for evidence, but why does it not have a member of that particular race group co-opted to help in the investigation?

That is once more the integration policy of the United Party.

The hon. member for Klip River may make inane interjections if he wishes, but they are not solving the problem by one iota; after 21 years of Nationalist rule we are no further along the road. All that has happened is that there is chaos in regard to group areas and race relations. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I think that this morning the hon. member for Port Natal has once more given a fine demonstration of how the United Party blows hot and cold on various occasions. Must we now accept that in principle the United Party supports the question of separate residential areas for the various race groups? If this is so, why has the United Party in the past, when it came to the question of the establishment of group areas, opposed this tooth and nail? In particular I want to refer to the conditions which we had in Johannesburg in former years. There is the hon. member for Johannesburg (North) sitting next to the hon. member for Port Natal. The hon. member is one of the most fiery supporters of the status quo being maintained in Johannesburg as it has been throughout the years, i.e. that Whites and Blacks should live side by side in that area. In spite of this the hon. member for Port Natal said that we had once more accepted the United Party’s policy, i.e. that different residential areas should be established for those people. It is the biggest lot of nonsense I have ever heard, and I think the hon. member made his claims here for the sake of the political effect this kind of speech would have on Natal.

On behalf of a constituency with a strong industrial element, i.e. the Benoni constituency, I want to thank the hon. the Minister and the Department most sincerely here this morning for the unbiased and just implementation of the Physical Planning Act. I think that such actions are appreciated throughout the country, and in particular in my constituency. Under the guidance of the National Management Foundation a symposium was held in my constituency last year to which virtually all the industrialists in that area were invited, and the Secretary for this Department gave a very interesting and illuminating lecture about the actual physical implementation of this Act. I can say that in my constituency I have really had no difficulty in connection with this Act. I think that it is this kind of sympathetic action on the part of the Department and the Minister, in cases brought to their attention, which makes it easier for us, as representatives, to keep our people satisfied. I think that all these spectres which the United Party saw in connection with the implementation of this Act, i.e. that it would bring large scale unrest to industry and that there would be opposition as a result of these actions, have been cleared away, and industry in general is very satisfied about this matter.

In addition I want to say I have a very difficult constituency inasmuch as I am faced there with the housing of all Indians on the East Rand. There will eventually be about 6,000 Indian families in my constituency. The biggest problem is to supply those people with work. The policy is that Indians should begin to diversify and not only move in one direction, i.e. that of business. I think that the figures which were furnished here this morning by the hon. the Minister, in reply to a question from the hon. member for Houghton, were illuminating. They indicate to us that we should also diversify these people into labour and industrial channels. Since, under the Physical Planning Act, requests are made for more Bantu labour to be made available, my plan is that the hon. the Minister should instruct the Department to bring it forcibly to the attention of industrialists that, instead of getting Bantu labourers, they should make use of the available Indian labour, especially in my area and in other areas which are easily accessible to Indian labour forces living in Benoni. At the beginning of this year, when I was in Natal, we were told in evidence that there was a tendency among industrialists to make greater use of Indian labour in their industries. I think that here we have a chance to help those people.

I also want to thank the hon. the Minister and the Department for the implementation of a portion of the report of the P.W.V. Committee which deals with open spaces, i.e. the approval which the hon. the Minister gave for a portion of the Suikerbosrand area to be purchased and developed now as an open space for the population of the P.W.V. area. This is a long-felt need and we are grateful that this is now being done and that the local authorities of the Witwatersrand, the Vereeniging complex and Pretoria, who want to contribute to its development, can now create facilities there for the population of these areas. My plea is also that other portions of this report which deal with open spaces should receive attention in order to see if we cannot implement the additional recommendation of that report. Knowing the Witwatersrand, Vereeniging and Pretoria areas, I am afraid that the hour-glass is running out as far as the availability of open spaces in those areas is concerned. We see here the tremendous incentive displayed by land developers to-day to obtain certain areas, and at times very high prices are paid for land which is still available. I think that we shall have to put our heads together in order to acquire more open spaces in those areas for ourselves, open spaces which can be developed into recreation areas for these population groups. In connection with the further study being made in respect of this P.W.V. planning, I regret to say that, as a result of a shortage of manpower in the Department, no further progress has been made in connection with that investigation. It is an essential investigation. When one looks at the development which is in progress in my own area, i.e. Benoni, Springs, Boksburg, the Kempton Park complex and the whole of Alberton, one is really concerned at the fact that we have not yet designed a master plan according to which we can work on the development of those areas. However, I do not want to blame anyone in particular. I know what is going on there and that the problem is a shortage of manpower. As soon as the Department has trained a person to such an extent that he begins to be useful, he is snapped up by the private sector. And we can do nothing about that, because that is what happens in a growing and young, developing country, particularly where one has a country which develops so easily under a good Government such as we have to-day. I just want to put forward one idea, i.e. that in these matters we should also follow the pattern which is being followed throughout the world: Where one finds large complexes of this nature and one wants to initiate regional planning, where one wants to determine the utilization of space for those areas, one must also call upon the assistance of the private sector, which can do it as it is done abroad. I am aware of the fact that in this country we have excellent urban and regional planners whom we can use very profitably and who can work out projects of this nature for us at a fee. Then the Department’s task need only be to co-ordinate this work. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Benoni who has just sat down raised a point here which I would like the hon. the Minister to clear up. The hon. member for Benoni asked that the hon. the Minister should use his powers to direct the Indian community away from the commercial aspect of their activities and the Indian community should be used more on the Rand as labourers.

He never said as labourers but that they should work in factories.

What does the hon. member think people who work in factories are other than labourers? Steps are being taken by the Department to investigate the Grey Street area in Durban, the greatest concentration of Indian wealth in the whole of South Africa. In this area there is a tremendous concentration of wealth and business, sports and educational activities. I want to know what the hon. the Minister is going to do with those people and what he has in mind and what is behind the investigation which is going on in the Grey Street area in Durban to-day. If the intention is to declare this area for Whites, what is going to happen to that tremendous concentration of wealth of the Indian community which is to-day at Grey Street? Where is it to go and where can it be reproduced? Is the kind of thought that is in the hon. member for Benoni’s mind also in the mind of the hon. the Minister? Only 22 per cent of the whole Indian population, according to the figures of the hon. the Minister, is engaged in commerce to-day, wholesale and retail, and here we have the thought being expressed by the hon. member that these people must now be used to replace Bantu labour in various areas in the Transvaal.

That is nonsense.

The hon. member can search his own conscience, because I heard very distinctly what he said. I want to raise a matter with the hon. the Minister which affects my constituency where I believe that not perhaps this hon. Minister’s Department, but the department responsible for the planning of group areas around Pietermaritzburg has made an unadulterated hash, in relation to the planning of the Coloured areas and the Indian areas, namely in the Mountain Rise—Woodlands—Northlands complex, between Pietermaritzburg and Greytown. I understood the hon. the Minister to say last night, and I want to make sure that I have it right, that it is the duty and the responsibility of his Department to determine residential areas. Am I correct in saying that it is the duty of the hon. the Minister’s Department to determine residential area in relation to group areas as, for instance, near Pietermaritzburg? The hon. members for Pietermaritzburg and myself were with the hon. the Minister when he investigated the area with the City Engineer and members of the Maritzburg Corporation. We undertook an on the spot investigation in connection with the siting of a new Coloured area for Pietermaritzburg. The point which I want to make is that an earlier determination placed the Coloured community in Woodlands, which is to-day known and recognized as being too small for the Coloured community of Pietermaritzburg. The City Council is now engaging on the last housing scheme that it can undertake, and the City Engineer estimates that the council will need within the next 20 years a further 2,000 acres of ground and 7.000 to 8,000 houses with all the sports facilities that are going to be necessary adequately to house the Coloured community in Pietermaritzburg. The Department of Community Development which undertook the planning before this hon. Minister’s Department took over, had at their disposal the whole of the Mountain Rise area planning for Indians with the hinterland that goes 50 miles in the direction of Greytown. But the department has bottled them up in an area which is now too small for the Coloured community and they will have to duplicate every single facility provided by the City Council for the Coloured community in another place, separated by a belt of Indian development from the existing Coloured community. I believe there was shortsightedness and that the then department did not realize that there was going to be concentrated in Pietermaritzburg practically the whole of the Coloured population of the Natal Midlands. There has been a slip-up somewhere. It is having the effect that the department has two choices now. The one is to expand the Woodlands area, and the hon. the Minister will remember the terrain we saw there and the difficulties of developing that area, or else they will have to create a totally new area. Pressure is now being placed on my constituents by virtue of the fact that the Minister will now be introducing a new element into that area, i.e. a Coloured element. I believe the Minister has a duty to those people. I want to say that we in Natal, particularly in Pietermaritzburg, are proud of the contribution which is being made by the Coloured people; they are sound and responsible people. However, it is inevitable that where you introduce a new group, especially a non-white group, into an area it affects property values.

Why? That is an old, old story!

But it will inevitably happen that where you have land originally set aside for development as a white area and it then is proclaimed for a settlement by another group, the value of that land is going to be affected. In terms of a letter I have here, I believe the Minister is going to advertise these proposals. As I understand it, he is going to advertise the extension to the Woodlands area and also in the Bishopstowe area. Could the Minister please confirm this? I can tell the hon. the Minister that he is going to get a considerable volume of complaints from both areas. The extension of the Woodlands area can only go in the direction of the Chase and Town Bush Valley areas where there is development to-day for settlement by high class white residents. On the other hand, if you go on the other side of the Bishopstowe area, the hon. the Minister, by proclaiming that as a Coloured area, is going to cut off the last white access for the people of Greytown, New Hanover and Wartburg to Pietermaritzburg.

Have you any suggestions?

The Minister has now landed himself in the position where he has to sort things out. To be fair to the people involved, he should, when he proclaims an area, take the valuations of the properties which are affected by his proclamation, because anybody affected by this proclamation is obviously not going to be bought out immediately; it is a development which is going to take place over a considerable number of years. However, the people who are moved in terms of the proclamation at a later date will have to re-establish themselves at the prices ruling on the day they have to move. They will then be faced with the proposition that the value of the properties at which they are proclaimed to-day will then have declined. The least the hon. the Minister can do on proclamation is to establish present day market values of the properties affected by his proclamation, in order to be fair to those who are going to be affected some time or other, sooner or later. I should like to know from the Minister whether it is possible to proclaim the area, to take control thereof and to take transfer thereof when it is proclaimed. I realize, of course, that this is a considerable area and that a considerable amount of money will be involved.

Is he passing the buck again?

The Minister of Planning will proclaim the area and it is his responsibility to make sure that the department whose job it will be to carry out the proclamation acts fairly towards those affected, because this is something of the greatest importance to the people involved when they have to re-establish themselves later on at a price obtaining then instead of the price they can get to-day.

There is one other matter I should like to raise with the hon. the Minister. Last night the hon. the Minister said that there had been consultation between him and the Administrators in connection with planning of industrial areas. This is something which affects me particularly. In my area the hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development is building a township for 20,000 Bantu, i.e. at Montrose, as part of the Swartkops Bantu location, or Bantu reserve or homeland— whatever you like to call it. The problem now is, who is going to decide where the industrial area is going to be where these people are to be employed? They will be 17 miles from Pietermaritzburg, the growth point established in our area. In our area there is only one factory but this can provide employment only for about 2,000 to 3,000 people. There is, furthermore, a growing Indian population which at the moment is estimated to be 2,500 in the immediate vicinity of that factory. [Time expired.]

I am rising to reply to a few matters. There is, firstly, the matter raised by the hon. member for Tygervallei. Unfortunately he cannot be here to-day because he had to attend a Republic Day celebration. In regard to the matter he raised I want to state that the Group Areas Act makes provision for the establishment of border strips only in cases where there are no physical or other obstacles which can serve the same purpose as a border strip. Border strips are always determined within the limits of practical implementation, as well as in consideration of the financial implications. In addition these strips are being planned as efficiently as possible in order to eliminate any possible point of friction between the race groups. In built-up areas it is sometimes difficult to establish such a border strip. In that case we are forced to make use of backyards in order to effect back-to-back separation. If it is possible to incorporate industrial strips into town planning, these are also used. In sparsely developed areas border strips are proclaimed with a view to utilizing them for some purpose or other apart from residential purposes, so that the boundary does not have to exist as an open space.

I now come to what the hon. member for Port Natal said in regard to the Grey Street area in Durban.

†Members of the Indian group have expressed themselves through the Press in a way which was considered to be contemptuous of the Group Areas Board. They also made expressions which can be considered to be defamatory. It was even stated in the Press that members of the Group Areas Board sat with preconceived ideas and that the Government had already decided to make Grey Street white. All parties took part in the inquiry and pleaded for certainty about the Grey Street area. However, this area is still under consideration. The planning of this area is part of the overall planning of Durban. In this connection, therefore, the hon. member for Mooi River has also prejudged this issue because until such time as the report of the investigating committee has been considered by the full Group Areas Board and their recommendations submitted to the Minister of Planning, I cannot say what the status of the Grey Street area will be.

Was there a formal investigation of Durban as a whole in which the matter of the Grey Street area was also raised?

Yes, there was a formal inquiry in regard to the Grey Street area. We have not yet received the report of that investigation. Yet the hon. member acts as if a decision has already been taken in regard to the matter.

I now come to the matter raised by the hon. members for Benoni and Smithfield. This concerns the application of the Physical Planning and Utilization of Resources Act of 1967. The standpoint adopted by the Minister was that all applications in terms of this Act will be dealt with according to merit. This Act has been in operation for 18 months now, and I now want to testify here to the major assistance and support we have received from our industrialists in South Africa. We received a large measure of co-operation from them, in virtually all the metropolitan areas. But I think they are entitled to know what criteria we use in the application of this Act. Applications are either for new factories, or for the removal of existing factories, or for the consolidation of activities under one roof, or for more Bantu. With the consideration of all these applications the first consideration is always whether the industry concerned is an industry which can be removed to a border area or not. That is always the first consideration. If we are of the opinion that we are dealing with an industry which can be removed to the border areas, we do not refuse the application immediately but make temporary assistance available, for two years, say, and refer it in the meantime to the Permanent Committee for Industrial Location in Group Areas. That Committee then supplies the industrialist concerned with all the information and sees whether it cannot accommodate him elsewhere. In the consideration of such applications there are three aspects which are regarded as being of decisive importance. The first is that the number of Bantu in the urban complexes must be reduced. That is the first consideration throughout. The second consideration is that capital intensive industries must remain in the metropolitan areas for the other race groups. The third consideration is that the fixed rate of growth must be maintained. In this connection the following factors are taken into consideration. Firstly, what is the nature of the activities being carried out? If we are dealing with a strategic industry, an ammunition factory, for example, then it is obvious that such an industry should not be removed to a border area. Secondly, it is asked whether the industry concerned is localized, for example as a result of the minerals it requires or as a result of the market for its manufactured products. A factory is, for example, localized if it makes use of by-products and waste products of other factories in the vicinity. In this category there are the factories which are now being established and which make use of the by-products and the waste products of the chemical industry at Sasolburg. We must also take the market area into account. Very often the transportation costs of manufactured articles are such that those articles cannot be manufactured in a border area because the article may then become too expensive. A further consideration is whether the articles are tailor-made, i.e. whether they are being manufactured for a specific purpose. Is there continuous consultation with the person who is going to use the article or not? If so, we regard that industry as localized. Another factor is whether a specific industry is a service industry—for example, a bakery, a dry-cleaning plant, petrol stations, garages, plumbers, printing works, building contractors, cartage contractors, laundries, carpenters, funeral undertakers, blacksmiths, and others. These are all service industries which, in our opinion, cannot be removed. Another factor which is being taken into consideration, is the availability of facilities, such as land, factory buildings, etc. In addition the capital investment for specific factories is always taken into account. Of course we do not regard the amount of capital as a decisive consideration. Nor does the Permanent Committee regard it as a decisive consideration. But it is nevertheless being taken into account in the granting of such a factory’s application or not. The number of employees of each race group who will be employed, is another consideration. The hon. member for Benoni raised the position of the Indians. It is true that the Indians, for example in Benoni, will receive preference in regard to the provision of work in factories above Bantu. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Minister, when he was appointed to the office of Minister of Planning, was an enthusiast for his job. He is now probably concerned about the amount of criticism he is getting. This criticism is largely due to frustration on the part of people concerned with the various areas of South Africa, because they cannot get finality. I am not querying the Minister’s statement that planning is a difficult task. There are a number of problems. We have this report of the Minister referring to the Durban-Pietermaritzburg and Natal South Coast areas. The paragraph referring to this reads as follows:

What paragraph are you quoting?

Paragraph 55 of the Department’s report. What we should like to know is what the word “long” means. I have endeavoured for 21 years to get finality in regard to the area which I represent. Shortly after I was elected as a Member of Parliament, because of the concern about Bantu housing, I asked the then Minister of Bantu Affairs to visit my constituency. I also had the late Dr. Jansen, the late Dr. Verwoerd, Minister de Wet Nel, the present Minister of Bantu Administration, the Deputy Minister Koornhof as well as the Bantu Affairs Commission visit my constituency. Still there is no finality. With regard to the Pinetown-New Germany complex there is no finality as far as housing is concerned either. The police are concerned, because there is no finality as far as the Clairmont area is concerned. The Government has already made one decision but afterwards changed its mind. It provided for the establishment of a Bantu housing scheme. After it was established and after the Minister attended a function there and after the Bantu were told that that was a suitable place, the Government changed its mind and decided that the area should be used for Indian housing. It is a frustration for the people in the area. There are over 150 factories at Pinetown. Pinetown does not count as a border area, although the Minister has said that he virtually regards the town as a border area. Pinetown area has Bantu reserves on its boundaries. The Minister visited the area. He was enthusiastic. He gave us a courteous reception and indicated that he was co-operative. However, the point is that despite all the Minister’s assurances—I accept that he did not give a time schedule— the position is no different to-day as far as finality is concerned than it was 20 years ago. It is for that reason that I ask what the Minister regards as “long”. There was over R10 million invested in one factory alone in the New Germany area. They have Indian staff and Bantu staff. The Minister knows the factory concerned. In fact, he visited it. Now they have to plan for the future. They have to plan as far as the Indian staff is concerned and as far as the Bantu staff is concerned. The Minister knows that any factory to be efficiently run must have a stable labour force within the area. I know the hon. member for Klip River has visited the area. He is doing the best he can. But the point is how long do we have to wait? I would recommend to the hon. the Minister …

It is merely a question of time now.

Yes, I appreciate that, but my point is that I have been at this for 20 years. It is not that I came with this matter yesterday. I have been trying for 20 years to get finality. I can speak from first-hand experience. As far as I am concerned, do I have to wait another 20 years? I will not be here then.

Certainly not.

I am not suggesting it will take another 20 years. I am trying to be objective in this matter, because it is a serious matter. I have in my file to-day a letter from a financial organization in Central Europe who wants to invest 10 million dollars in this country. Only a fortnight ago they wanted to invest 10 million dollars in South Africa. They wanted to know where to go in South Africa; they wanted to use South African raw materials. When I advise them I have to tell them that they have to get into touch with the Department of Planning or with the Department of Economic Affairs, who in turn will recommend that they see the I.D.C., the Department of Indian Affairs, the Department of Bantu Administration and Development, the Department of Labour, the Bantu Affairs Commissioners as far as permits for Bantu labour are concerned, and the Department of Community Development for housing. How can you write to a firm in Central Europe and give all that detail? All you can do is to inform them as to the markets and where the raw materials can be found, and as far as labour is concerned, indicate the type of labour available. Then you have to start to make a survey. Because of our peculiar race problems, it takes far longer in South Africa to make a survey to decide where a factory should be situated than it does in any other country. I know that for a fact, because last year I visited Australia and I made a special point of discussing the matter with the Minister of Industrial Development in Western Australia. It is far quicker to get an industry established in Western Australia than in South Africa because of the time factor. I would commend to the Minister the action of Mr. Truman when he became President of the United States of America. He had a little note on his table which read, “the buck stops here”. When the hon. the Minister of Planning was appointed I got the impression that it was to avoid the passing of the buck. I am not suggesting that it is done deliberately, but everybody suggests that another department should be consulted. I understood that the Minister’s function was to co-ordinate all the efforts of all the other departments so that the interests of South Africa, of the race complex in South Africa, the financial interests, the markets and all factors concerned should be co-ordinated before a final decision is made. I appreciate that it takes time, but the point is as regards an area I know very well, there is no final decision. The hon. the Minister knows what the position is. When are we going to get finality in regard to the Pinetown-New Germany complex? When are we going to get finality so that people can plan because in the meantime, people are making money in cases where partial decisions have been given. For example in regard to the centre of Pinetown, an indication was given that that was a white area, but the whole area has not been planned. Certain Indians knew that they would have to get out of Pinetown, but they have not made the money in most cases. I have in mind one particular property in Pinetown which was valued at R5,000 or R6.000 and which was sold by the Indian for R.22,000 a couple of years ago. That place has not changed hands for R22,000; it changed hands at well over R100,000 in merely two years. The Indian has not made the money; the white property speculators made the money. I can name other cases in the Pinetown area. These people have not acted illegally. It was legitimate business, but the point is that the Indians have been told that there is no future for them there and they have sold as a result.

There are still many Indians in the area who still do not know their future. The poorer type of Indian does not know his future. He does not know what his future is as far as housing is concerned, and he cannot borrow money from a bank or a building society, because the area has not been finalized. Therefore he is frustrated and he translates his frustration into general dissatisfaction. Some of the more responsible ones have come to us and said they would like finality so that they can know where they can house their wives and children so that they can carry on working in the Pinetown area. The hon. the Minister met some of the fine type of Indians when he came to my area. He gave them a courteous hearing and assured them that they have nothing to fear. The point is at this stage, two years after the hon. the Minister was there, they still do not know what their future is. They still do not know whether they have a future in the factory. If they are to move a long way away, the transport costs will …

You are generalizing now.

No, I am not generalizing. I know that the nearest area as far as Pinetown is concerned where the Indians can go to is Chatsworth. Chatsworth is a long way away. Does the Minister know what the length of the bus journey is; does he know that it takes over an hour to get to Chatsworth from the New Germany area? I am not generalizing. [Interjections.] I suggest that the hon. the Deputy Minister who has just interjected should come with me and see for himself.

What about Klaarwater?

That is in a Bantu area.

It is Indian.

I am leaving the hon. member’s remarks in the competent hands of the hon. the Minister. I am standing up more specifically to raise two matters here. Mr. Chairman, on a previous occasion in this House this year I pleaded for the more extensively organized and more purposeful interest in our country’s marine resources. I specifically pointed out that since our country was almost surrounded by a more than 2,000-mile long coastline, we should regard it as within our financial capabilities to display a new approach to our oceans. Since then I have noticed from Press reports that by 1970 a country such as the United States is going to make more funds available for oceanographic research than, for example, for space research and, Sir, that is quite a mouthful, judging by present trends! Facts already indicate that at present this country spends about a thousand million rands a year on the mining of minerals in the ocean. Similar examples also reveal themselves in countries such as Japan, Australia and others. There is every indication that, in spite of the dramatic attempts at space reconnaissance, in the ensuing three years the world is going to turn its eyes with quickening interest to the oceans. I think that in this situation South Africa cannot be allowed to lag behind. I notice, for example, that on occasion a permanent committee was appointed by the United Nations to investigate additional research in respect of the deep-sea bed. As far as I know South Africa is not represented on this committee. Neither do I know what the procedure is for obtaining representation on a similar committee, but I want to plead to the hon. the Minister for an effort to be made under these circumstances to ensure that South Africa will, in fact, have a seat on this committee, and if this is not possible I want to plead for the hon. the Minister to see whether it is not possible for South Africa to have at least a representative as an observer on this committee. Lastly, as far as our own oceanographic activities are concerned, I want to plead for this department to do everything in its power to bring about greater and more effective co-ordination. I really feel that the Department of Planning has an urgent and an actual function to fulfil here, as I have already indicated on a previous occasion. I want to plead to the hon. the Minister for this matter to receive urgent attention.

The second matter to which I want to refer is that of regional planning. I want to make a plea here for more calculated and imaginative attention, on the part of the Department of Planning, to our voluntary regional development associations. Within our larger and more general planning machinery I feel that greater status should be given to our regional development associations, and I shall say why this is so. It is remarkable with what degree of ignorance subjects such as decentralization are lightly discussed at congresses and meetings. People simply assume that you can take an industry from here and put it down there. We hear pleas about the depopulation of the country districts, without a penetrating look at the background of a similar situation, and then we have moving pleas about growth points which the state must simply create here and there. Sir, if we analyze these pleas more closely, we frequently—I do not say always, but frequently—come to the conclusion that modern man in his own environment has lost his own creative abilities, or that these abilities have become blunted. I think that we would all agree that it is basically true that where man’s creative powers are lacking in a particular environment, poverty prevails, or, to put it another way, we must concentrate to an increasing extent upon teaching the human being within the regional context to create his own future and not merely to struggle ahead with a pressure group mentality. Sir, a region may be richly endowed with natural resources which embody great promise for the future, but the human spark which is necessary for the extension and utilization of these latent resources may be temporarily or even, in many cases, permanently absent. I could indicate several such regions to you. On occasion a well-known planner expressed it as follows (translation)—

This is an extreme example, Sir, but it actually conveys what I am saying. The time has come for us, within the regional context, to kindle anew the human spark, the disposition of man to develop within the regional context, his enterprise. In other words, if I may take a short cut, we must begin to lay more emphasis on the creative powers of man himself in his particular environment. This is perhaps a deeply-rooted function, but it is a function which the Department of Planning cannot escape from in our greater structure to-day. Sir, I know of no better place within our planning structure to-day where we can cultivate this basic disposition than specifically in our regional development associations, and therefore my plea is now that the Department should look for a few choice men, if I may put it like that, to give more specific attention and emphasis to this human aspect within the regional context. If, within our regional development associations, we can succeed in stimulating and initiating this disposition, we shall be doing South Africa a great service; from a planning point of view we shall actually be making a very great investment.

The hon. member for Moorreesburg made a plea for more research into the efficient utilization of our marine resources and our ocean beds. I agree with him wholeheartedly. He made a further plea for our participation in international conferences about the ocean and the ocean bed. I agree with him once more. These are all matters which I have already raised under the Vote of the Minister of Economic Affairs.

Sir, I did not intend to take part in this debate until the hon. member for Tyger Valley spoke. In the first place he spoke of buffer strips in group areas. He pleaded for proper physical separation between group areas and asked the Minister to give his full attention to that. He referred to transportation difficulties, when members of one race, for example, travel through the group area of another race. I know that he is up against similar difficulties in his constituency and in the bordering division of Maitland. He made a plea for a thorough local investigation prior to the proclamation of group areas. I agree with him. His further plea was for us to look anew at the existing proclaimed areas. The hon. member said that some of them were perhaps wrong and should be changed. Throughout the years we have said that a thorough investigation should be instituted before group areas are proclaimed, and what he said is actually a justification for the attitude which this side of the House has adopted through the years.

But I want to refer to-day to an additional difficulty which is, in my opinion, the lack of co-ordination at a high level. There is already a lack of co-ordination on the level of local authorities, and yesterday the Minister said that he was negotiating with the provinces about difficulties on a provincial level. But I should like to refer to difficulties at a higher level, in other words, co-ordination between various Government Departments. In support of my argument I want to refer to the Slangkop housing scheme for Coloureds in the Southern Peninsula. The Coloureds of Simonstown are now being transferred to Slangkop. We held an inspection there recently; the hon. the Minister of Community Development was also present. There is no police station; no policemen have been appointed there; there is no post office; there is one public telephone; and the bus services were not planned beforehand.

That is not my function.

The point I want to emphasize is that all these facilities ought to be planned before an area is declared a group area.

Mr. Chairman, on reading the Department’s report one gains an impression of the progress that the Department has made in the short space of two or three years. The report contains a number of interesting facts, but of greater significance to me are the conclusions one can draw from the facts reflected in this report. In the first place, I conclude from this that there is a particularly intimate interaction between research and planning. We note that a total amount of R10,719,000 was spent on actual scientific research and the question which arises is what the results of this research are. What is the result, converted into development, of this research? The question is also asked abroad and in this connection there is interesting research to determine the eventual correlation between the research which is done and its results. I am convinced that we shall find that, in the very short time in which this interesting matter has fallen under the Department of Planning, very good results have been furnished.

To what report are you referring?

The report of the Department of Planning. I want to say once again that I believe that for future planning it will be important to determine the correlation between the money spent on planning and the results obtained by way of development. Sir, a further conclusion to which I have come is that full recognition is given to this planning at our universities. It is very clear to me that our university students are hereby also consulted, as fellow-architects, in future development. I find this so important, Sir, that I want to ask the hon. the Minister to give attention to the matter of affording public recognition to our students for the research which they have done. We note that there is hardly a project which has been tackled here, and which this report mentions, in which university students were not involved. We are for ever looking for tasks for our university students in order to utilize their excess energies, Here is a wonderful opportunity and may we congratulate the Department on having, in fact, done so. I believe that this will be done on a much larger scale in future. I shall refer back to this at a later stage, but I want to make one more point in this connection, i.e. that public recognition by way of a medal could be made to each member of a research team. In fact, consideration could be given to particular merit awards where, by virtue of reports and research projects, other Departments proceed to undertake active development. We also note that the Department has, indeed, succeeded in co-ordinating, because just look at what a tremendous service it provides for other Departments in connection with research projects. We note that in Community Development, research was done in connection with the design of efficient, better and cheaper housing for all race groups, and even out country’s security, in all its facets, enjoys the attention of the Department. We are referring here, for example, to the South African Police and to Civil Defence. This speaks volumes for the successful co-ordination by this Department in respect of the needs of other Departments.

A third conclusion which I draw from this report is that we are rapidly approaching the stage where there will be a general development plan available for the Republic of South Africa. This is evident from the fact that tremendous progress has already been made with the development atlas. It is also evident from the fact that an investigation was undertaken in connection with the utilization and application of our lakes, rivers, etc. An investigation was also carried out in connection with recreation and tourism, viewed in the general national spectrum. An investigation was also carried out in connection with refractories, ferrous alloys, etc., and also in connection with the development potential of various regions. We are also glad to note that the plan for the development plan of the Free State Goldfields will soon be available. All this will eventually enable us to earmark each region for a particular purpose, and this will also stimulate the imagination of the development associations concerned with each region. I want to express the hope that such knowledge will enjoy wider publicity so that the local individuals concerned with that region can obtain the maximum benefit from it, and that it will not, for example, be of benefit to people who come from elsewhere and are perhaps well-provided with capital. The local individuals ought to be the first to avail themselves of the local potential of each region and to benefit by it.

This bring me, then, to the question of what the destiny of the Coloured population of Bloemfontein is. According to figures which I obtained from the Department of Coloured Affairs—and this is a mere projection—there are about 9,500 Coloureds in Bloemfontein. 500 of these are children in high school and 1,700 are in primary school. This is an increase, as far as high school attendance is concerned, of almost 40 per cent on last year. This indicates to me that Bloemfontein is undoubtedly destined to have a group area for Coloureds, as has in fact been declared there, and to become a growth point for Coloureds. In order to do justice to this aspect we shall have to give attention to providing Bloemfontein with the maximum possible development factors as far as the Coloureds are concerned. With a view to doing this, we shall have to give consideration to whether Bloemfontein will not be entitled to enjoy the same industrial benefits as those which Heilbron, Upington, Knysna and George are enjoying at present. Not only would this contribute to preventing the Coloured from sinking to the same level as the unskilled Bantu labourer, but it would enable him to remain in his own group. It would also benefit Bloemfontein in the sense that we could then draw industries which make use of Coloured labourers. I therefore want to ask the hon. the Minister to give consideration to affording Bloemfontein these benefits. It is a fact that our whole country is planning-conscious to-day. In fact this is surely the basis of every step in our lives, but seen in relation to the activities of this Department, it is necessary that there should be the closest possible liaison with local bodies. Therefore we want to express the hope that it will, for example, be possible for this Department to decentralize its own activities, with a view to bringing about direct contact between the local development associations and the provincial planning and advisory council. [Time expired.]

I want to thank the Minister for the statement he made last night. I know he looks surprised because he seldom hears me praise him in this House, but I must say he is the only Minister who has done anything for the Border area, and therefore I must express our gratitude to him. I am certain that everybody living in the Border area, especially around King William’s Town and East London, will be pleased to see that at last something is going to be done for the development of that area. The Minister started his statement by saying that in the implementation of Government policy aimed at the decentralization of industrial development to the border areas the Transkei-Ciskei area is one of the highest on the priority list. Then he went on to say later that the area was geographically very well situated especially in view of its close proximity to the Transkei and the Ciskei, which holds the advantage of a large source of labour supply. When he was talking about the assistance to be given, he said that the local authority is responsible for the provision of the necessary services as well as the creation of desirable living conditions for both white and Bantu workers, and with their co-operation something could be done. I want to draw the Minister’s attention to the fact, that despite his reference to the Transkei the Transkei is not going to get anything out of this.

Why not?

I will tell the hon. member. That hon. member once had visions of living in the Transkei and it is time that he should go there and inspect that area. I have consulted the map and I see that as the crow flies, from the nearest point in the Transkei, which happens to be the bridge over the Kei River, to Berlin …

It is 40 miles.

No, it is 35 miles. That is as the crow flies, but by road it is naturally further. [Interjection.] The Minister of Community Development laughs, but I want to talk to him. The Government’s policy of establishing industries in the border areas was firstly to assist the decentralization of industry, and we support the decentralization of industry. But there was also a second reason as far as the Government was concerned, and that was the ideological reason, the idea that the African should be able to sleep with his family at night. The Minister who interjected just now is the man who laid so much stress on this when he was still Deputy Minister. The Bantu must work in the white factory in the daytime and he must sleep with his family at night.

But do you not share that sentiment?

Of course I do, but then you must be practical, and that is why you must put the industry in Umtata and not in Berlin. I do not know whether that Minister has been to that area, but the Deputy Minister will be able to tell him that at the nearest point on the Kei River there is no area suitable for establishing a village or a town, even if the Government is prepared to cart the labour 50 miles or so by bus to the industry at Berlin. I want to know of what assistance this will be to the Transkei? When is the Government going to wake up to the fact that there is no suitable spot on the border of the Transkei for the establishment of a border industry? Nothing has been done and nothing will be done, and to come now with a statement like this and to pretend that this is in furtherance of their border development policy to help the Transkei is utter nonsense. This will not help the Transkei at all, and this is another proof of the failure of the Government to appreciate all the implications of the establishment of border areas to accommodate the people living in their own homeland. This will not enable the Transkeian worker to sleep with his family at night, unless you take the Transkeian worker out and establish a township at Berlin for Transkeians. I am hoping that the Minister of Planning will have a greater sense of realism than the Minister of Community Development and the Minister of Bantu Administration and see that the only thing he can do in the way of proper planning is to go into the Transkei and to establish industries there. The sooner he starts investigating through his department what can be done in the Transkei to give employment to people living in the Transkei, the better for the Transkei and for the Government.

In the extremely limited time at my disposal I should like to come back to the hon. member for Port Natal. The hon. member stood up here this morning and posed as the high priest of apartheid. The hon. member is now coming forward and I want to ask him whether, on behalf of the United Party, he is now standing up here as the high priest of apartheid? Then I want to remind him of what he said in this House on the 20th April, 1967—

Now I want to ask whether the hon. member and the United Party will tell me: If they are in favour of apartheid, how can one have separate areas without moving people around? In other words, if one accepts the principle of apartheid, one must accept the principle of moving people around. The one is a consequence of the other. One must accept it.

But must you hurt everyone?

If the hon. member for Port Natal says that he accepts apartheid, then he must accept the moving around of people; and if he does not accept the moving around of people, then I say that he does not accept apartheid. Then I say he should go and sit there beside the hon. member for Houghton where he belongs. Then I say that he is towing the whole United Party along on this road of liberalism, and between the United Party and this side of the House there is simply no bridge that could bring us together. There is no road to reconciliation; we shall never hit it off.

Tell us what apartheid is.

Apartheid is the fact that that hon. member can, in future, continue to exist in South Africa as a white man. It is the basis of his white nationhood and the perpetuation of his white nationhood in the future of the Republic of South Africa. I actually stood up in order to put forward another matter. When we on this side of the House thank the Ministers or the Government, United Party members always shout “Yes, they are saying thank-you again”. I want to do a strange thing this morning and, on behalf of the United Party representatives of Natal and the hon. members of the National Party of Natal, thank the hon. the Minister and the Government for bringing us the first key to the development of Natal, in the shape of the establishment of Iscor at Newcastle. In the second place the hon. the Minister gave us a second key to the future development in Natal, in the form of the Industrial Development Corporation at Ladysmith. [Interjections.] I cannot hear very well. If the hon. member would speak louder I would be able to hear what his interjection is.

Did you have any options there? [Remark withdrawn on 3rd June, 1969.]

That is a scandalous remark.

No, I did not have any options there, and I am not here in my own interests, but in the interests of my constituency. Natal, and the Republic of South Africa. This morning I want to say to the hon. the Minister that, with the coming of Iscor and the activities of the Industrial Development Corporation at Ladysmith, I foresee that the Tugela basin is going to develop, and so rapidly and dramatically that within a very short period it is going to overshadow the Witwatersrand urban complex. I say this because there is a population explosion, because those people have to be accommodated and because the Tugela basin lends itself to the future accommodation of these people. Now I want to say to the hon. the Minister that we must see the modern planning of the Tugela basin as a unit. In the Tugela basin, which covers three constituencies, i.e. Newcastle, Klip River and Mooi River, the hon. the Minister will find local authorities and the Tugela basin development association who are prepared to co-operate in every way possible in the modern planning of this area. In the year 1969 we have the opportunity of letting this large complex develop, not sporadically, but as a unit. I want to make the point that early consideration will have to be given to the fact that Boeings will have to land in that complex, that the Tugela basin will have to be linked with the rest of the world, and that a watch will already have to be kept for an airport of international proportions in order to handle those aircraft such as the Boeings, and even larger ones, in the future. This basin is going to be the terminus for many people who come to Natal from abroad. Therefore I not only want to thank the hon. the Minister, but I also want to give him the assurance that the Tugela basin development association will do everything in its power to assist him and his department with this planning.

Mr. Chairman, in the few minutes at my disposal I am not going to waste my time with the red herring which the hon. member for Klip River tried to draw across our path here. I also want to express my appreciation to the hon. the Minister and his Department for the statement which he gave us yesterday and for his kindness in sending a copy of it across. I also want to thank him for visiting that area shortly after assuming office and for spending time there in order to see what was going on on the Berlin Flats. There are only a few points that I want to mention in the short time at my disposal. The hon. the Minister knows that industrial land has been sold out in the East London area because the people expected that greater development would possibly take place than has appeared from the statement which the hon. the Minister of Economic Affairs issued. The first question which arises is what the extent is of the area to which reference was made here by the hon. the Minister. Is the water position such that extensive development can take place in that area, in terms of the statement which has already been made by the hon. the Minister of Water Affairs in connection with the development of water sources for a limited amount of land? Are there future plans for bringing water down from the Eastern slopes of the Drakensberg Mountains to this area which will certainly not have enough water? The rivers at its disposal cannot supply this area with sufficient water if there is development. One of the most important factors is also the incentive factor which will have to come into effect. One of the bodies at the hon. the Minister’s disposal, i.e. the Council for Scientific Research, will still have to do a great deal of research to give guidance in connection with the industries that ought to be established there. I want to make a strong point here. I know that the hon. the Minister and his Department are busy with this, but some indication will nevertheless have to be given to industrialists from abroad as to where they ought to establish themselves and where the raw materials and the labour will be available to them. Apart from this, indications will have to be given about what industries can do this successfully. I just want to point out to the hon. the Minister that the Council for Industrial Research and other bodies are always hammering on the textile industry. In the past the textile industry has experienced great difficulties, and not only there, but also in the Uitenhage area. Consideration must be given to encouraging other industries to establish themselves in this area, and to the Government itself taking the initiative by establishing some heavy industry or other there, as an incentive factor to draw industrialists to that area.

Mr. Chairman, I am grateful to the hon. member for East London (City) for what he had to say in regard to my announcement last night. I should not like to mention the size of the sites here, but the available land for industrial sites is quite unlimited in the Berlin area so that there will be no obstacle whatsoever. As far as the matter of water is concerned, I indicated in my statement what the position was, but I also want to make it very clear that at this stage no industry which is considering moving to East London need feel any concern about there being a water problem. As regards the incentive factor, the hon. member knows that the Government is very sympathetically disposed towards the East London-Berlin area as far as this matter is concerned, but that every application will of course be considered by the Permanent Committee on its merits. This is of course a matter for which funds are being made available under the Vote of the hon. Minister of Economic Affairs. I do nevertheless want to say in regard to location in this area and in other areas that my Department states clearly, upon application, which areas are suitable, and East London is one of them. It is very difficult for us to give preference to one area over another, but I went so far as to say that the East London area and the Berlin area which have now been designated, are very high on the list of priorities, for the simple reason that half the Bantu we would like to provide with a reasonable livelihood in the years that lie ahead are in fact concentrated in that area. It is for this reason that we give that area such a high priority.

The hon. member for Klip River mentioned a few other very important matters. He indicated the differences between the United Party and the National Party in regard to the matters which we discuss under this Vote in a very effective way. The hon. member referred to the announcement that Iscor is to be stablished in Newcastle. In addition he also mentioned the border area development at Ladysmith which I announced some time ago, and as he correctly stated, this is being done in co-operation with the I.D.C. With reference to this I just want to say that as far as Natal is concerned, and apparently most of the members on the opposite side have never seen it in this way before, because they definitely did not bring it up in this debate: There were three announcements which were of the utmost importance for the future of Natal, i.e. the announcements in regard to the new Iscor, the border area at Ladysmith and the further steps in regard to Richard’s Bay, inter alia, to create a local authority there. No province in the country can ask for more than to hear three such major and important announcements. These were such important announcements that the hon. member for Klip River was quite right. My Department of Planning will have to give very careful consideration, and so will other Departments as well, to the fact that we will have to make an early start in regard to the construction of airports, at any rate for this northern Natal area and for the Richard’s Bay area. This emphasizes once again what I tried to say last night, i.e. that the primary function of the Department of Planning is not to plan for tomorrow, but so that 20, 30 and 50 years hence a finger cannot be pointed and it cannot be said that in Natal, as far as northern Natal and Richard’s Bay are concerned, we neglected to look to the future and to establish an airport. To my mind this is a fine example, and the hon. member raised a very important point here.

While the hon. member for Klip River was speaking, an interjection was made by the hon. member for Port Natal, which I do not want to leave unanswered. When the hon. member for Klip River was referring to the border area development at Ladysmith, the hon. member for Port Natal asked whether the hon. member for Klip River did not have any options there. In other words, whether the hon. member for Klip River would have derived any personal benefit from it. I think a remark of this kind is not worthy of this House. I want to give the hon. member for Port Natal an example of how personal interest cannot be allowed to play a part in this matter and how we should not use tactics of that kind outside this House, because it is the most deplorable criticism which any person can use. I just want to mention an example in regard to the establishment of Iscor at Newcastle. In 1946 my late father left a farm at Newcastle to me, my brother and my sister, which was subsequently registered in our names. In other words, I and my family benefit personally from the fact that the new Iscor is to be established at Newcastle. It was not a question of options, or of a recent acquisition. It is land which has belonged to us since 1946. I am just mentioning this as an example in pursuance of the interjection made by the hon. member for Port Natal. The fact of the matter is that the decision that the new Iscor should be established at Newcastle was quite correct. All factors, such as the economy and other factors, were taken into account, and the Government took the correct decision and I am in full agreement with it. Although I had a personal interest in this matter the function of my Department of Planning was to the last to advocate and to present the case for Iscor being established at East London and not at Newcastle. This was done in an effective and powerful way, but as I have said, after everything was taken into consideration, the correct decision, that it should be established at Newcastle, was taken. I want to express my deepest censure of this interjection made by the hon. member, and I hope that it will not become a feature of our public life.

†I would like to thank the hon. member for Transkei for the thanks he expressed. The hon. member also asked of what assistance this development will be for the Transkei. But surely development at Berlin will also create jobs for people from the Transkei. In that Bantu area which is already being developed not only Ciskeians are present, but also people from the Transkei.

They will have to leave the Transkei and go and live in the Ciskei.

Apart from that they will still be living in a Bantu area. As is the case in other parts of the country, Transkeians can work there, stay in hostels, and be home during week-ends. That is a much better proposition than in other provinces.

*Let me also make it very clear that the development of the border area at Berlin is in no respect being opposed to development inside the homeland at Umtata. As far as the development at Umtata is concerned, if it were in any way practical and physically possible, I would rather see ten times more development taking place in Umtata than in Berlin. But we must be practical. That is why I just want to inform the hon. member that as far as the Department of Planning and the Department of Economic Affairs is concerned, location of industries at Berlin is not a quid pro quo and must in no respect be connected with the development we would like to see taking place at Umtata. The hon. member will be aware, because he knows that part of the world, that location possibilities at Umtata are restricted by various factors. I just thought that I should make this matter very clear.

The hon. member for Bloemfontein (West) raised quite a number of points. In the first place he requested that public recognition should be accorded to students who were doing research work and who had done well in that field. He mentioned the possibility of the introduction of a public medal of honour. The Government is investigating the question of recognition in various fields. This matter is being dealt with by the Department of Foreign Affairs. The idea the hon. member raised here was a good one, and I shall request my Department to bring it to the attention of the Department of Foreign Affairs. As far as planning is concerned, full courses in planning have been introduced at four universities through the mediation of the Department of Planning. There are 10 temporary posts on the establishment of the Department in order to afford people the opportunity, while they are engaged in investigations and projects for the Department, to acquire their master’s and doctor’s degrees. I can therefore state that we on our part are taking certain steps in this connection.

The hon. member also discussed the spending of leisure time by students, particularly if this is related to the possibilities which exist for research. I agree with the hon. member that our students can do far more in this respect, and for that reason I want to encourage them to do so.

The hon. member also spoke of development associations. To a certain extent this ties up with what the hon. member for Moorreesburg had to say in this regard. At the moment there are as many as 51 development associations in the Republic. Many of them came into being through the co-operation of the Department. This co-operation has been cordial. I shall subsequently, in my reply to the hon. member for Moorreesburg, have a few more things to say about this.

Then there is the question of the Coloureds in Bloemfontein. The fact of the matter is that Bloemfontein is not a Bantu border area. We have no intention at the moment of changing the situation of the Coloureds in Bloemfontein. As the hon. member knows however, the position of the Coloureds in the O.F.S. has been dealt with in a report. The report is still receiving consideration. But we hope to reach a decision soon. Then the possibilities for the location of industries in Bloemfontein can be reconsidered. If there should be any applications in this regard, I would be pleased if they could be addressed to the Department.

The hon. member for Simonstown spoke about the lack of co-ordination on a high level. As an example of that he mentioned the fact that although Coloureds had been settled at Slangkop, there was no post office or other facilities. Subsequently he requested that all these facilities should be supplied before an area is declared to be a group area.

Better co-ordination must take place.

Yes. Let me now inform the hon. member that this is not a function of my Department, and that I have no intention of making it a function of my Department either. The function of my Department is exclusively to designate an area as a group area. That in itself is a Herculean task. But the moment an area is allocated as a group area, it is out of my Department’s hands, and that is how I want it to stay.

The hon. member for Moorreesburg also discussed regional planning. Inter alia, he pointed out the importance of people and asked that people should not merely be a pressure group within a regional development association, but that they should realize that they have a task to fulfil. On that score I agree wholeheartedly with the hon. member. No matter how much is done by the State there can be no development in an area if the people within that area do not contribute their share. That is why I am very pleased about the objective argument the hon. member put forward. A I have already said, I am in complete agreement with him as regards his view of development associations. Nevertheless, I must address a word of warning here to all the different bodies in the various regions. As responsible people we must be careful not to say things which would cause false hopes to rise among the people in a region. We recently had an example of this in the Transvaal. By doing this, we would be doing the area which we would in fact like to benefit a disservice.

The hon. member asked for a new approach in regard to our oceans and stated that South Africa should ensure that it does not lag behind a far as taking an interest in that matter is concerned. Inter alia, he referred to a U.N. committee dealing with this matter. Now I should like to make a short statement in regard to it. During the past few years unprecedented interest in the utilization of marine resources has flared up in various countries of the world. What the hon. member said is correct, i.e. that in the U.S.A. more is going to be spent on oceanographic research next year than on the space programme This is almost unthinkable, but true nevertheless. At present $516 million is already being scent on this. Together with that the value of the exploitation of the ocean by the U.S.A, amounts to a tremendous total, something like $1,000 million per year. Towards the end of 1967 Malta introduced a motion at the General Assembly of the U.N. to the effect that the deep-sea and the deep-sea bed beyond the territorial waters should be reserved for peaceful purposes and that the resources there should be utilized to the benefit of the poorer countries in particular. This is a far-reaching and revolutionary idea for the “deep-sea bed beyond the territorial waters” also includes the Agulhas bank which would consequently also have to be reserved for the benefit of poorer countries Discussions of this matter are still continuing in various committees of the U.N., and a permanent committee consisting of 42 countries has been appointed to go into this matter further. The committee has just met for the first time. South Africa is not one of the 42 member countries, but has a representative there in the capacity of observer. Recently we also sent a deputation over, including officials from my department. Arising out of this an auxiliary committee of the Planning Advisory Council was appointed, whose task it will be to co-ordinate the legal, technical, economic and scientific aspects of the utilization of marine resources, and to advise the Cabinet in this respect. Hon. members will realize that it is necessary to tackle it in this way because we are dealing here with a new development. The Planning Adviser is chairman of the auxiliary committee, and it members include the scientific adviser, representatives of the Departments of Foreign Affairs, Economic Affairs, Planning, Mining, as well as the C.S.I.R. and Soekor. The findings of this auxiliary committee will eventually go through to the general Planning Advisory Council. The Department of Mines has also for some time been engaged in oceanographic research, in conjunction with the university of Cape Town. Seismic apparatus, two magnetometers and an ocean gravimeter, which are the property of the Department of Mines, are being used on the research ship S.A.S. Natal, for the purpose of taking readings. The staff consists of two officials from the Geological Survey section, and the salary of a third person who was recruited by the university is also being paid by the Department of Mines. In addition there is a very well-equipped research ship for marine observations, i.e. the Meiring Naude, which was taken into operation in May 1968. In addition to this, mention must still be made of the hydraulic research unit at the University of Stellenbosch. Nor must we forget that a wealth of information is being brought to our attention as a result of the search for natural oil in our territorial waters. The contracts which have been signed with 12 sub-lessees read that all information should go to Soekor, from whence it can be channelized to the various Government departments. Hon. members will note therefore that as far as this matter is concerned we are already active in various fields. In regard to the hydraulic research unit at Stellenbosch, I just want to mention that it is functioning in close conjunction with the engineering faculty of that university. Purely scientific oceanographic research is being coordinated by the South Africa National Committe for Oceanographic Research. This committee concentrates on basic research and ties in with the aforesaid auxiliary committee and the planning advisory council.

In addition I just want to announce that the Government has approved in principle that the Republic will participate in a proposed international decade for ocean exploration which will start during the seventies. This may afford the Republic an opportunity of cooperating with a number of countries—for example, the U.S.A., the South American countries, Australia, Japan, Madagascar and others—in an important scientific programme, a programme which may, on a long-term basis, produce major practical and economic benefits. Some of our officials were in the U.S.A, recently to assemble information in this regard. In September this will be followed up by further discussions.

The importance of the utilization and development of marine resources is an aspect to which the Government is devoting serious attention. The idea of a body which would deal jointly with all matters related to the utilization of marine resources—for example, a separate Government Department, which has occasionally been mentioned—has recently been mentioned by various persons. I feel, however, that the auxiliary committee and the Planning Advisory Council concerned must first place the entire matter on a firm basis and report to the Government at an appropriate time. After that this matter can be reconsidered. I thank the hon. member for Moorreesburg for having raised such an important matter as that here.

†The hon. member for Pinetown referred to so-called frustration, because the report which he referred to was also mentioned in the secretary’s report which we have before us and that it was indicated that it would still take a long time before the Durban-Pietermaritzburg report would be completed. I am sorry to inform the hon. member that making these surveys, which forms the basis of such a report, does take time. At the moment I am not in the position to indicate what exactly the time factor in this particular case will be. I should, however, like to agree with the hon. member that a stable labour force is of primary importance in industrial development. Knowing the area that he referred to, I am more than in sympathy with him if he says that a stable labour force is of absolute necessity in industrial development. But may I say to the hon. member that we as a Department have never changed our plans. The Indian group area at Klaarwater was only established after the Department of Bantu Administration had decided to house the Pinetown Bantu elsewhere. I am also in agreement with the hon. member that there is at the moment actually no housing for Indians at Klaarwater. However, the function of my Department is merely to indicate the group area. After that, of course, it goes to the Department of Community Development. Then the hon. member for Pinetown inquired about what stage has been reached regarding the Bantu area at Claremont. I may inform the hon. member that discussions have taken place with the Department of Bantu Administration and Development and have reached an advanced stage as to the most realistic division between the races. This is now a matter for the Department of Bantu Administration.

*The hon. member for Benoni raised a few matters here. In particular he pointed out that in his constituency no problems were being experienced in regard to the application of the Physical Planning Act. I want to inform the hon. member that I am grateful to him for saying that, for virtually the same applies throughout the country. This is the case because for the application of this Act we have dedicated officials who go out of their way not only to treat people courteously but also to provide instruction wherever that can possibly be done. He referred here to the instruction provided by the Secretary at Nigel. I can give numerous examples of other officials, together with the Secretary, who have taken steps on such occasions. This is now bearing fruit. The hon. member also referred to Indians at Benoni. I held discussions with representatives from that constituency and that town council. I want to inform the hon. member that the idea there was also that an Indian industrial area should be allowed to develop where Indian industries could be established. However, I think it would be a good thing if industrialists throughout the country take cognizance of the fact that in the Benoni area Indians are available and will be available to work in the industries, and in this way not only to replace the Bantu but also to occupy the place the Bantu would have occupied if it had not been for the Physical Planning Act.

In addition the hon. member mentioned the question of the P.W.V. area. Now I just want to avail myself of this opportunity of expressing my thanks to him for the work he did in drafting these reports when he was still chairman of that commission of inquiry, and of that committee. The hon. member for Benoni was chairman until Benoni became Nationalist in 1966, and he had to relinquish that post. In addition the hon. member also referred specifically to the Sugar Bush Ridge. As he is aware, the report has been completed and submitted to me. I have already referred it to the Transvaal Provincial Administration. They are in fact engaged at the moment in trying to obtain the necessary funds from the Treasury in order to make a start with the implementation of this matter. I could have elaborated further on the question of recreation, but time does not allow.

The hon. member for Port Natal referred derogatorily here to what the qualifications of the members of the Group Areas Board were.

I said they are all Nats. [Interjections.]

Let me just make it very clear that there is no question of anybody being appointed to the Group Areas Board if he is not a known Nationalist. We will not appoint a person if we know that he does not support the policy of the National Party.

They should know something about the people they are dealing with.

Yes, I am still coming to that. Secondly, we appoint well-balanced people to the Group Areas Board. This is something we have always done. Thirdly, we appoint persons who arc well qualified.

†I want to give hon. members the academic qualifications of the members of the board. The Chairman. Mr. Wessels, has a B.A. LL.B, degree. Mr. M. C. Barker a B.Econ. degree, Mr. Van Wyk, B.A. LL.B, and M.A., Mr. S. W. van Wyk, M.A., Dr. G. A. Brand, M.A. LL.B., and Mr J. A. F. Nel, B.A. LL.B. I think that the hon member will gather from that that these men are academically qualified men. Mr. Wessels, the Chairman, was a chief magistrate in Pretoria. Mr. Van Wyk was a magistrate and also the Deputy Secretary of the Department of Public Works. Dr. Brand served in various Departments, including the Departments of Bantu Administration, Justice and in the Department of Planning as Under-Secretary. Mr. Van Wyk was a school teacher. Mr. J. A. F. Nel was an advocate at the Bar and is also a former M.P. and he has vast experience, especially of commission work. He was also a member of the Bantu Affairs Commission.

*I do not think there can be any doubt that these people are not competent to fulfil their duties in a very satisfactory way, as they are in fact doing to-day. Now I do nevertheless want to point out to the hon. member that these members of the board do not simply make up their own minds in regard to the matters, but must also form a judgment of all the evidence submitted to them. This evidence is submitted by competent persons, and persons who take a personal interest in the matter. I hope that this will never happen again, i.e. that doubt is expressed in respect of the persons serving on the Group Areas Board.

These people are all highly qualified, but I wonder if they are so highly qualified …

That is not a question.

What I should like to say, is that there seems to be nobody in this board who has a qualification of social welfare.

Order! That is not a question. The hon. member is making statements.

They are now criticizing that board, but in the entire United Party there are not that many learned men!

I shall ask the Social Welfare Department of the University of Cape Town to contact the hon. member.

Then the hon. member for Port Natal referred to the research in connection with adequate and cheaper housing. I may inform the hon. member that this investigation is carried out by the C.S.I.R. on behalf of the Department of Community Development. The amount appears on the Vote of this Department because the C.S.I.R. falls under my Ministry. This of course is the case with many such projects.

Mr. Chairman, may I …

Order!

The lost sheep wanted to bleat, but has now taken fright.

The hon. member for Mooi River said that I have had discussions with the Administrators in regard to industrial development.

Actually I asked a question about the planning aspect which the town regional commission brought up in its findings.

What I said, is that I have had discussions with the Administrators as to how the functions in regard to planning could be divided between the Provincial Administrations and the Department of Planning. I did not refer to the question of industry itself.

Then the hon. member for Mooi River also referred to the advertising of the Bishopstown area and Woodlands for Coloureds. The fact that an area has been advertised does not necessarily mean that the particular area will be proclaimed for the particular group. That is why a public inquiry is held to give all interested persons an opportunity of submitting their representations so that all the evidence can be considered by the Group Areas Board. I want to give the hon. member the assurance that that will also be the case in this particular instance.

*There are just one or two other points raised here to which I would like to reply. The impression was created here that deproclamation of group areas is being done at random. I want to make it very clear here that we will try our best, and will always proceed from the premise, that deproclamation of group areas should be restricted to the absolute limit because we do not want to create uncertainty in any race group The Group Areas Act has been in operation for quite a number of years now. I think the Act was passed in 1951, or 1952. In the 17 years the Act has been in operation, only 20 group areas have been deproclaimed throughout the entire country, and some of them are a question of four morgen or a morgen and a half or one morgen in extent, but what is most interesting is that the number of deproclamations from White to Coloured was ten; from Whites to Indians four; in other words, from White to non-White there were 14 out of the 20; from Coloured to White there were three; from Indian to White two and from Coloured to Indian one. I think the hon. member can therefore rest assured that no random steps are being taken.

Mr. Chairman, I thank hon. members for their contributions and for the pleasant way in which they discussed the activities of this Department, and in particular I want to extend a cordial word of thanks to the Opposition for the fact that after the Physical Planning Act had been in operation for only 18 months and after a very stormy passage here, nothing was raised in this debate in regard to Act No. 88 of 1967, and that I need therefore furnish no reply in that connection either. I am grateful to my officials for having administered the Act in this way.

Votes put and agreed to.

Revenue Votes 37.—Health, R35,535,000, and 38.—Health: Hospitals and Institutions, R18,870,000:

The hon. the Minister is in the fortunate position that the degree of knowledge of health has advanced enormously. With this advance in knowledge, we have arrived at the point where most diseases as such can be controlled. The Minister is now in the position that his problem is not one of dealing with ill-health but one of making circumstances and conditions in the country such that he can preserve health itself. The control of illness generally has reached a fairly advanced stage. Sir, it was in 1919 that the last Public Health Act was passed in this House, and while the Act has been amended from time to time it has not really been considered as a whole, and I hope that the hon. the Minister will give thought to the question of completely consolidating the laws which have been passed since 1919 and at the same time introducing a new outlook into his Department and turning it from more or less a passive Department which tries to eliminate ill-health into a Department which is actively and dynamically concerned with prevention.

After all. Sir, prevention is better than cure. Up to now his Department has concentrated largely on curing disease. It is true that there have been a few advances in prevention but basically the outlook of his Department has been to try at all costs to keep ill-health away. He should go forward now with the thought that the danger of epidemics is small; that he should concentrate on the preservation and improvement of health. That should be his outlook. He must turn his Department’s attention to the environment of the living creatures in this country. One might call this the environmental attitude. The country is entitled to drink pure water, to breathe pure air, and to receive not only uncontaminated food but food of the highest quality. If he can do this, he will have achieved a great object. He has been given a little evidence of the necessity of breathing pure air and of avoiding air contaminants but little has been done in this regard. The Atmospheric Pollution Prevention Bill was passed in this House in 1961, and since then we have heard nothing further; we do not know what is happening and we see very little evidence that the committee which was created at that time has been tackling this task. It would be a great advantage to all of us if he could persuade this council for the prevention of atmospheric air pollution to publish a report so that the public will know what is happening. Air is almost his greatest immediate problem. The two things which he must face and which I hope he will face, are contamination with dust and contamination with fuels.

This problem is there, but apart from the mines nothing has been done about it. Every time the question is asked, one receives the answer that it is under consideration. Meantime lives are threatened and not only are they threatened but they are made, towards the end, most unpleasant. Many a man dies gasping for breath, emphysematous, because he has been breathing comparatively foul air over the last years, or even the early years, but particularly over the last years of his life. It is difficult to obtain pure air unless one goes far out into the country areas, or one goes to sea. We are not as bad as many of the more industrialized nations, but we are quietly and steadily poisoning our air. One cause of it I would like to point out is the absence of control over diesel engines, which are among the most venomous of air pollutants. We even find that when we complain in Durban about the Greyville shunting yards and the smoke from the shunting engines there, we are told that the hon. the Minister of Transport will as soon as possible replace them with diesel engines. The use of diesel engines in the desert of South-West Africa is perhaps excuseable, but to replace steam engines, in spite of all their smoke, by diesel engines almost amounts to murder in that particular area of Natal. It is not necessary. Most of the railway engines in the Durban station are electric. Why then must the steam shunting engines be replaced by diesel engines and make the position even worse? You will not see the poison as you see the smoke, but you may smell it, and certainly you will breathe it The Minister knows that in all dusty occupations, other than the mines, there is no pre-employment examination. Many industries use dust as abrasives and it creates a very serious dust problem. The rope industry and the demolition industry are probably the worst pollutants of all, so that every time a house or a building is demolished the people working there and all people living close by are breathing contaminated air. [Time expired.]

Now that the hon. member for Durban (Central) has cleared the air, it is my pleasant privilege, which I cannot let slip, and that is why I feel myself at liberty to do so, to have a chat to the Minister of Health whom I want to term my colleague to-day. I say that this is why I feel myself at liberty to discuss these few matters which I want to raise here to-day.

You are more fortunate than with Albert.

There is a great deal more air which the hon. member for Durban (Central) still has to clear on his side. I should like to break a lance for that unfortunate sector of our population the handicapped persons. We undertake planning and all we think of is economic growth. If we think of planning then three quarters of us think only of industrial development, but we are to a large extent shutting off our social conscience by forgetting about those unfortunate people who do not have the same opportunities we do. Actually I want to confine myself here to the mentally handicapped, those people who are on the borderline, who are not quite certifiable, but who cannot be trained either. It may be said that this does not fall under the Minister of Health, but then my counter question would be: Under what does it fall? I am thinking here of special institutions. In Bloemfontein there is an institution which is named after our First Lady, the Lettie Fouché Institution. This is an institution which originated out of a crying need at a stage when there was no haven for these people. Some people saw the need and accepted the responsibility and voluntary assistance was offered and voluntary organizations took over. I mentioned one of these institutions, but there are so many of them in the country.

Because these institutions do not quite fall under the Department of Health and do not quite fall under the Department of Social Welfare either, these people are in fact in a rather hopeless position. I know there was a commission of inquiry, but I hope the hon. the Minister will not take it amiss of me if I break a lance for these people so that we can decide where these people must receive assistance from and from whence they must obtain the supervision they require even after having left school. This is one group of people, but I also want to break a lance for another group of handicapped persons, and here I want to mention more specifically the physically handicapped. There are so many of our people, particularly in this modern time of traffic congestion and road accidents, who have been permanently handicapped or crippled who can nevertheless do a proper days work. But our problem is that we can no longer allow these things to escape our notice and I believe the Department of Health will have to take the initiative here so that an opportunity can be created for these people to do a proper days work.

These people can do honest labour. We will have to introduce this into our planning. Here we are engaged in constructing a colossal building opposite the Houses of Parliament. I do not know what the position is but if I am to judge from all the other buildings I do not think we could have done our late Prime Minister, after whom this building is going to be named, a greater honour than to plan in such a way that those people who are handicapped and who are perhaps confined to wheel chairs will one day be able to obtain work, and that there should be planning for them in that building as well. In most of our buildings—I almost want to say in all—no provision is made in the latrines, or anywhere else, for these people who are the unfortunate among us, but who can nevertheless make a particular contribution to the solution of our labour problem.

Business suspended at 12 45 p.m. and resumed at 2.20 p.m.

Afternoon Sitting

Mr. Chairman, I have dealt with the question of air to a limited extent. I should now like to move to another feature of the hon. the Minister’s departmental policy. That is the tendency to move more and more towards immunization rather than prevention. For instance, if there is an outbreak of typhoid—fortunately it occurs rarely; but it should be even less common than it is —we immediately are informed that all contacts have been immunized, of course by injection. But it would be very much better if the policy of the Department is as far as possible to avoid artificial immunization. It is necessary in some diseases to immunize people. It is nevertheless undesirable and unpopular. People, on the whole, are not anxious to be vaccinated. All of us who are in favour of this use of various sera for immunization, feel that it is only used as a second best; in other words, prevention rather than cure. You see, Sir, it is only this Minister’s Department which is really concerned with the prevention of diseases, either through its own officials, or officials to whom it has delegated responsibility. But, nevertheless, the responsibility rests with this Minister.

I draw attention particularly to the very heavy load of intestinal parasites which the average human and many animals carry. The animal parasites are in many occasions transmitted by the human to the animal and by the animal to the human The heavy load of nematode worms which the Bantu, particularly, and I think also quadrupeds, carry, should be thoroughly investigated. These are waterborne diseases on the whole. Some effort should be made to provide pure water to every inhabitant, whether animal or human; because here is where the disease is carried, apart from, of course, the ordinary worms which are carried by meat. It is quite common to have dogs “dewormed” as they say. Of course, it is very good for them. It has to be repeated very often. But it should not be necessary to constantly deworm humans. I am sure the veterinary department will be very pleased to have co-operation in this respect. This is another dynamic aspect to which I think the hon. the Minister should attend. There is no research going on as regards parasites, except to a certain extent at the institute in Durban which, to tell you the truth, Sir, is largely concerned with amebiasis. I do not think they are concerned greatly with the ordinary worm. Unless the Department of Health tackles it, there is nobody else to tackle the problem. As far as I know, research is not going on to any great extent.

I have spoken about the pollution of water and air. The position as regards food is the same. That is perhaps less contaminated. It is perhaps not contaminated, but it is nevertheless sometimes allowed to deteriorate. This Department should definitely go into the problems of the deterioration of food, to the extent to which food is tinned and frozen. Because we are now becoming a people who mostly open tins or go to the ice chest. This is an undesirable state of affairs. The hon. the Minister should tackle this problem and see how it can be solved. Otherwise the general good health which we have enjoyed here, owing to our sunlight and our climate, will gradually disappear. We will become, as it were, physically a second grade race. This has happened to many other nations, particularly nations in the tropical and sub-tropical regions.

I want to turn to another small matter which I feel is important. I should like to discuss the question of noise, peace and rest with the hon the Minister. It is his job to see that people can get a decent night’s rest without being disturbed. It is his job to see that people’s ears in their working hours are not hammered by compressors outside their windows. All these are matters which affect the health of the people, and it is the responsibility of his Department. It is time that he investigated thoroughly the question of hearing and noise.

Lastly, I want to draw attention to what is perhaps the effect of the recent purchase tax, namely a rise in the price of the saccharin derivatives and the food specially prepared and manufactured for diabetics. The diabetics are finding that the prices of their particular foods, which they need in order to get a sufficient nourishment, which should be free of carbohydrates, have recently gone up in price considerably. I do not know whether it is due to the taxing or whether it is just some profiteering. I think it should be investigated certainly and soon.

Mr. Chairman, when the House adjourned for lunch I was stating the case of two groups of persons in our society; in the first instance, the so-called mentally handicapped, or mentally regarded, and in the other case the physically handicapped. I should like to contrast the mentally handicapped with the physically handicapped. As I see the matter, these physically handicapped people are people who may perhaps be trained, but who definitely cannot be educated. Once they have completed their school training they can definitely not look after themselves. My plea is that between the Department of Health and the Department of Social Welfare a refuge should be found for these people under supervision. I realize fully that at the moment they are not certifiable. But, Sir, it is an illusion that these people can look after themselves. In fact, we are only too aware that as a result of their mental handicap these people are far more sexually stimulated than others. This is definitely a danger to our population. It is my plea that the Government will take steps in accordance with its responsibility in this matter.

As regards the second group, the physically handicapped, I may possibly have created the impression, because I had to stop too soon before lunch, that I was pleading for a labour bureau under the Department of Health. That is by no means what I have in mind. I want to advocate a change in the attitude of employers, because we have among the physically handicapped, in contrast with the mentally handicapped, people who are able to look after themselves on the labour market and to do South Africa a great service. The problem is that there are so many of these people. I am not thinking only of paraplegics here. I am thinking of people who have undergone operations of all kinds, for example lung operations, lobectomies and heart operations. In present-day circumstances those people are quite healthy and can do a proper day’s work. But the resistance—I do not want to say antagonism—to their employment is still so strong that one still finds to-day that if a person who has suffered from rheumatic fever applies for work on the Railways he cannot be employed because he cannot join the Railway Medical Scheme. I know it may perhaps take years, but I am advocating a change in the disposition of the employers towards these people who are able, if they received just a touch of encouragement, to do a full day’s work.

Mr. Chairman, I want to say one or two words about the doctor shortage in South Africa. At the moment I feel that the Minister should take notice of what is happening throughout the world. Recently I read a report which was published in the United States at the beginning of 1960. In this report it is stated that in America there were 275,000 doctors in practice there, which gave a ratio of 1.4 doctors per 1,000. In South Africa we have one doctor to every 2.000 of the population. Of course, here we have a complication in that the Whites in the main have to provide the services for the white and the non-White population. The output of non-white doctors in South Africa is really only starting now. It will take a considerable time before we can depend on the non-white doctor to do his share in looking after the health of the total population. As matters are to-day, we also have to realize that while in South Africa we are not producing sufficient doctors for ourselves, the calls that are being made from the surrounding countries are becoming more urgent. It was with pride that we read recently that teams of our doctors were going to the surrounding states. We want to encourage that. Although we in South Africa have one doctor for every 2,000, which relatively means that every 1,000 people have half a doctor, we have to realize that Swaziland, Lesotho, Botswana and Malawi have an eighth of a doctor for every 1,000 people there. We do not have the exact figures for the Soviet Union, but they have approximately two doctors per 1.000. In little Israel they have more than two doctors per 1,000.

The necessity for increasing the output in South Africa must be borne in mind when one looks at the present conditions that exist, not only in South Africa, but throughout the world. Just to come back for a moment to Africa, in the whole of Africa there are 15 medical schools. Five of these 15 medical schools are in South Africa. There are only two dental schools south of the Sahara. Both these dental schools are in South Africa. So it means that calls for our South African doctors in Africa are going to be more and more. The death rate throughout the world in the main is decreasing and life expectancy is being lengthened. The doctors are discovering more germs and they are learning how to kill them. But for every 20 years that a man’s life is lengthened, we have to increase our doctor output by 40 per cent. We have the notion I think, that death comes suddenly to people. But it does not really. I think, usually, it is a very slow process. This slow process requires much medical attention. It is like the old lady said, death takes a little bite out of me every now and again. If we look at the picture as it may be in 10 years’ time, we will find that we are more than 10 per cent short of our present set-up. How will we be able to meet this? Are we going to bring more students into our present universities? Is it possible for us to increase the classes of the universities by, say, doubling the number of students bearing in mind always that we have virtually a 50 per cent loss? Classes of 100 are already difficult to maintain. What would happen if we had to have 200 students in a class? Will the efficiency of the doctors in South Africa be maintained with larger classes? What will be the solution? To these the obvious solution is that it is necessary for the Minister now to go into consultation with the Minister of Education and see whether it is not possible to establish another medical school in South Africa.

Where?

The hon. the Minister asked that same question last year. I told him then what I thought would be the most suitable place. Johannesburg has a medical school and Pretoria has a school. There are two medical schools in the Cape. There is a medical school in Durban in Natal. It is for non-Europeans. But we talk about all medical schools, because non-Europeans have to play their part. The only province in South Africa that does not have a medical school is the Free State. I do not think it would be a bad idea if a medical school was erected in Bloemfontein. The Minister should give consideration to the Free State. But failing the Free State I think that Natal should have another medical school. I want to leave it at that. Because of the shortness of time, I cannot go into further details on that matter.

In the minute or two that I have left at my disposal, I want to bring to the notice another very pressing problem, namely the increasing incidence of venereal disease in South Africa. I think the Department must immediately take steps to notify the public by every possible means as to the dangers and the ease with which one can become infected with venereal disease. With the introduction of penicillin into medicine and the ease with which venereal disease was being dealt with led to a certain amount of laxity. That is increased tenfold now by the use of the contraceptive pill. Because of these two incidents that have occurred, the introduction of a contraceptive pill and the belief that penicillin can cure venereal disease very quickly we have had a very, very rapid increase in the number of cases. The Minister knows, I know and medical people know that it is almost impossible to keep an accurate check on the number of cases that occur. It is a notifiable disease, but people do not notify it. One only has to go by the records of the hospitals. If my information is correct, we are finding an increasing attendance at clinics which are used to dealing particularly with this disease. I feel during the past few years there has been a laxity on the part of the Department of Health in putting up notices in public conveniences and toilets. There has not been enough publicity given in the Press to the dangers of venereal disease and the necessity for immediate medical attention to have this disease quickly cured. I also find that it is becoming a little more penicillin resistant. If we do not do something about reducing the incidence of the venereal disease, it will become more and more difficult to eradicate it later. I bring those two points to the Minister’s attention. I hope that he will be able to deal with it.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Rosettenville will probably not take it amiss of me if I were to nurse my own baby for about ten minutes.

It is not an every-day occurrence for an hon. member in this House to rise and speak on behalf of 350 million people.

How many?

350 million. It deals with migraine. It knows neither bounds nor time. In the form of the Medical Research Council Act of 1969 we have the machinery for dealing effectively with this matter. As a result of this legislation it is possible for us to obtain international co-operation by joining the rest of the world in investigating this matter. I am very serious about this matter, although I am no doctor. However, I am also much more than that. As a patient I am the employer of every doctor who walks on two legs. That is why I am taking the floor, for as long as the employer holds the floor everything will be fine. If it is left to the employer to be the only one to speak, we shall soon have strikes, and that must not happen. I know that I am not going to be able to finish my speech. For that reason I want to ask the hon. the Minister in advance whether he is of the opinion that what I wanted to say is sufficiently important for him to feel concerned. I should also like to know whether he can tell us roughly what the extent is of the research which is being done for the purpose of preventing and curing migraine. In the third instance, I want to know whether it is possible to inquire into the extent of manpower erosion, road accidents, unhappy homes and injustice to children as a result of migraine.

On 17th May, last year, I made a speech in this House on this very same topic. The Press responded to this in a favourable manner. On 18th May the Cape Times, amongst others, published a report under the following heading: “Migraine worse than birth pains, says M.P.” As a result of the above-mentioned report I received between 20 and 25 letters. These letters were for the most part from ladies here in the vicinity of the Cape. I am still waiting for the hon. members for Houghton and Wynberg to add their testimonies. They have not done so as yet. Amongst others there was a letter from Major C. M. Grigg. He is the director of the Migraine Trust in London. He wrote, inter alia—

That comes to 300 million people. Apart from this letter there were approximately 20 or 25 others. I just want to refer to two of them. In one of them it was said—

Another person wrote as follows—

What is migraine? The Migraine Trust illustrates it as follows: A man is sitting on a chair. He has migraine. On each of his shoulders there is a little devil. On each arm rest of the chair there is a little devil, on the back of the chair there is a little devil and on the chair next to him there is another one. What are they doing? The first is blowing a trumpet in his ear. The other is singing a song of destruction in his other ear. A third is operating a pneumatic drill above his right temple. The fourth is drilling a hole into his skull. The fifth is sawing and removing parts of his skull with a bow-saw. The sixth devil is wielding a 14 lb. hammer and hitting away at the only part of his skull which has not been staked off. Now I shall leave this to our imagination by merely saying what happens to a migraine sufferer between the attacks of migraine. This is what a poet, Uris Carter, said—

But watch out when it wakes up and uncoils itself. Doctors say that all migraine sufferers are intelligent, that they are diligent, conscientious, and that all of them are perfectionists. We should not be in too much of a hurry to blush with pride if we happen to be migraine sufferers, because I want to mention a number of world-famous figures from the past, all of whom were migraine sufferers and who were no angels. The first person to whom I want to refer is Mary Tudor. She was Queen of England from 1516 to 1558. She has gone down in history, rather unjustly, as Bloody Mary. I just want to say in passing that John Knox referred to her as the wicked Jezebel of England. The second sufferer I want to mention is Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche, 1844-1900. He was a brilliant author and a talented musician. In addition he was a tireless searcher after truth and he died an unbeliever and a lunatic at the age of 56. He was also keen to become a minister of religion, just as his father and his grandfather had done. On 118 out of the 365 days of a year he suffered from migraine. The third sufferer was Rudyard Kipling, an author who lived from 1865 to 1936. This is what he wrote about migraine to a friend—-

Just listen!

The fourth sufferer was Alexander Pope, 1688-1744. This was said of him—

However, he was not an ordinary person. He was frail and delicate, deformed, 4½ feet tall and he was greatly concerned about his physical appearance. He was literally in conflict with the whole world because of the migraine from which he suffered. He said—

He called his whole life a disease.

Speak of confusion! You know, Mr. Chairman, the most famous specialists in this world have removed healthy appendices and gall bladders only to find out that it was merely a migraine pain which took cover there. That is what is so confusing about this illness. It is calculated that in America $1,232 million is spent annually on migraine remedies Does this not justify research, no matter at whose expense? I want to read out to hon. members what was written in the Migraine Newsletter of December, 1968. Listen to this—

Especially if one is a man.

From replies to a questionnaire it appears that chocolate is responsible for 72 per cent of migraine attacks, dairy products for 47 per cent, citrus for 32 per cent and alcohol for 25 per cent. What a blissful thought it is to know that alcohol is only responsible for 25 per cent of migraine attacks! But it is enough to make one desperate if one wants to go on a diet and one pays attention to the following two findings. In the first instance, it is said that it takes three to four weeks to rid oneself of the last traces of food proteins which were taken. If one has to wait three and four weeks to rid oneself of the after-effects of that food which one has eaten, when is one to try again? In the second instance, a doctor gave the following diet to a patient who suffered from migraine. He said—

What is left? Water and bread.

I want to conclude by referring to what Professor Douw Steyn of Pretoria, a former professor in pharmacology, had to say in a warning to motorists in regard to the abuse of drugs. He said that exhausting journeys by car caused facial strain and headache. One takes a pill and becomes tired, lethargic and sleepy, and that is dangerous for oneself and for the people who are travelling along with you in that car. There is no scarcity of pills Apart from the 6,000 remedies which doctors may prescribe to us to-day, it is possible for us to buy another 25,000 kinds of remedies over the counter, just as cigarettes are bought— freely and without a prescription. It is these pain-killing pills which are a source of danger to the motorist. As I have already said, they cause the field of vision to be reduced and they also affect the eyesight and bring about dizziness, deafness and sleepiness, and they can be perilous to the driver and the occupants of the car. Impaired and retarded reflexes result in the driver not responding to his environment.

I have now spoken here as a layman. I just want to know whether the hon. the Minister does not think that this is really something to be concerned about. [Time expired.]

The hon. member for Waterberg has introduced a certain amount of levity in his serious plea for the help for sufferers of migraine. He and I both have an interest in the question of migraine for different reasons; he as a sufferer and I as a pharmacist. I am quite sure that the hon. the Minister will explain in due course that there are certain medical and scientific difficulties in dealing with a subject such as migraine.

I want to raise the question of drug abuse and drug distribution. With the position in regard to the Suez Canal and the implications which that has for South Africa in regard to the influx of harmful drugs, I feel that in passing I should point out to the hon. the Minister that in the four major ports of South Africa, Durban, East London, Port Elizabeth, and Cape Town, of the total establishment of 666 customs officials, there is a shortage of 103. There are 56 vacant posts and 47 posts are covered by temporary staff. I realize that it does not fall within the purview of the Minister, but it is something which must really cause him concern. It must cause him concern to think that drugs may come into the country because of insufficient control at the point of entry.

The hon. member must come back to the Vote.

Very well, Sir, I am passing on. I want to refer to the question of potentially harmful drugs handled, distributed and promoted by medical representatives, who are not necessarily medical practitioners or chemists and druggists. I know that this has been discussed in respect of previous legislation and when I questioned the Minister he indicated that he did not regard the illegal possession clause, which was passed by Parliament, as being applicable to this type of person. He said he would give this matter further consideration. I am encouraged by the remarks the hon. the Minister made in his speech which was read on his behalf to the Pharmaceutical Society’s annual general meeting in Johannesburg last week. He said:

Then the hon. the Minister went on and he referred to the amending Bill. He also referred to the question of unauthorized possession of schedule six drugs and he said that this is something which is to be made an offence. He said that this is a matter which should be noted It is not my intention to impinge on the function of the statutory bodies which are there to advise the hon. the Minister, but I feel that I have the responsibility to place certain facts before the hon. the Minister and before this Committee. During the Easter recess I happened to be in Durban and I was approached by a medical representative. He said he wished to compliment me for having raised this matter in the House. He said he was not a qualified person, but he was deeply concerned at what was going on. He gave me an example of one of the procedures which he claimed was taking place. He said that certain medical representatives and I emphasize “certain” because I know that there are many men of integrity in this class of person, visited hospitals on their rounds and left potentially harmful drugs, including the pill, in the restrooms and toilets of the nurses and the medical staff in the hospitals.

He said to me: “If you do not believe it, contact the Medical Superintendent and ask him.” I did, Sir, and he confirmed it. He said that the position was now that he had laid down strict rules whereby medical representatives were confined to visiting the medical men and certain members of the staff at certain times only and under controlled conditions. But, Sir, he said: “You know, I interviewed a medical representative the other day. I asked him how long he had been in the service of his present company. He replied: ‘Six and a half weeks.’ I said to him, ‘Well, that means that this is your first call; you have had six weeks’ training and this is your first call?’. He agreed.” The doctor then said to him: “How did you enjoy your course?” His reply was: “The lectures were dull but the night life in Johannesburg was fantastic.” The doctor then said to him: “What were you before you took up this position?” His reply was: “I was a paint salesman.” Sir, this is one example But I want to refer the hon. the Minister to an advertisement which appeared in The Argus on 17th May: “Young aggressive men: Applications are invited from young aggressive men for the position of medical representatives in Cape Town. A thorough training course will be provided for the successful applicants”—no mention of the night life— “Previous experience in selling would be an advantage. A company car is provided.”

Did you say “progressive” or aggressive”?

Aggressive. The only qualifications required apparently were aggressiveness and an ability to sell. I believe that the time has come when we could consider the suggestion put forward by this medical representative himself. He said he felt that medical representatives should be registered in some way; that the firms which employed them should have some record of them and so should some statutory body or this department have some record to show who was handling potentially harmful drugs. The hon. the Minister assured me during the debate on the Bill under which midwives are entitled to handle these drugs, that the control would be strict and that there would be records kept. I would earnestly urge the hon. the Minister to give this matter his urgent attention, because I believe that it is playing a big part or a fair part in the illegal distribution of drugs to people who should not be using them.

Then, Sir, in the few minutes at my disposal I wish to refer to the question of the committee to investigate insecticides and other poisons. I know that this committee was appointed in 1964 during the period of office of the Minister’s predecessor. But to me there seems to have been an inordinate delay in submitting a report, and I wish to put it to the Minister that the time has come when urgent consideration should be given to this matter. The committee was formed in 1964. In April, 1965 I was told that there would be an interim report in six months’ time; in August, 1966 I was told that the investigation had become more extensive but that an interim report would be submitted at the end of 1966. In February, 1967 I was told that this whole matter was being investigated over a wide field and that there would be an interim report during 1967. In February, 1968 I was told again of the wide scope of the work of this committee and that there would be an interim report in the near future. In February, 1969 I was advised that there had been no interim report but that two reports had been issued, one of which had only been received recently. In May of this year I was told that the report was being studied. Sir, I deprecate this delay. I believe that if there was a suggestion in 1965 that there should be an interim report, there must have been a certain degree of urgency in this matter, and I believe that if an interim report had been submitted, possibly means could have been devised to overcome some of the obvious problems which exist in regard to the distribution and use of some of these dangerous insecticides. I feel that five years has been a long time. I am not alone in my concern because I know that the S.A. Timber Growers’ Association is also concerned; I know that the Women’s Agricultural Association is worried and I urge the Minister to give us some statement in connection with this report and to indicate that it is his intention as soon as possible to implement the recommendations contained in this-report.

Sir, it will not be taken amiss of me if I do not follow up what was said by the hon. member who has just resumed his seat, because to-day I want to bring to the notice of the hon. the Minister a matter which, to my mind, is of great topical interest, i.e. the long-felt want in respect of the scope of the existing medical aid schemes, especially as far as the farmers in the rural areas and our lower income groups are concerned. At present provision is being made for medical aid schemes by various employers’ organizations. The South African Railways, Iscor and other organizations also have compulsory schemes. For the purposes of my representations I want to classify our white population into four categories. The first category consists of those who are prosperous and who, from the nature of their income, meet their own medical expenses. The second category consists of old age pensioners, persons who receive maintenance allowance and who, by virtue of their financial inability to pay for their own medical services, receive free treatment. The third group consists of those whom I have just mentioned, persons who are covered and find security within these schemes to which they belong, to which they contribute and in return for which they are subsequently provided with services. The fourth group consists of those who fall outside the scope of the previous three categories. In respect of this group, in which I include the primary producer, the farmer of South Africa, as well as the middle and lower income groups, which account for the majority of the population, there is no-coverage whatsoever in this regard, except by means of the usual disability policies which may be taken out with insurance companies, but which from the nature of the case are expensive and do not meet this specific need. To them it is a financial nightmare to have serious illness in the household. It is for this section of our population that I want to break a lance this afternoon. It is unnecessary to emphasize the effects of steadily rising medical costs, doctors’ fees, hospital fees and particularly the costs involved in being admitted to private nursing homes and in under-going operations. To young people who have families and who do not belong to one of these existing schemes, this state of affairs, this worry, has really become a nightmare. Many people declare that it is cheaper to die than to be ill. To the rural farmer the long distance which separates his home from the nearest medical practitioner or from a hospital, is an important factor. The visit of a medical practitioner to a remote farm, the transport costs involved in being taken to hospitals and nursing homes, together with the inconvenience and financial implications involved, doubles the medical expenses for those people who do not have medical cover of some form or other. Often this is enough to ruin a beginner financially. Sir, it is hard to observe some of the cases of which I know, such as the case of a widow who receives an account of R600 for the treatment of her deceased husband and an account of R100 for the extraction of teeth and the provision of a new set of teeth. In fact, one has to go to the rural areas to witness the concern and fear felt by these people who do not have medical cover, before one can understand what this means. It is estimated that approximately 50 per cent of the population have been excluded from the existing schemes.

This afternoon I want to risk asking the hon. the Minister to devote his attention to the establishment of a State-aided comprehensive medical aid scheme. What I mean here by “comprehensive”, is that although it is to be established for the primary purpose of covering illness, it should also be possible to extend it so as to cover a wider field, such as disability benefits; it could even include pension benefits. What one should really establish, is a medical aid and provident fund, as the English call it. For instance, I am thinking of a scheme such as the one which has just been introduced by Metlife. Its basis differs from those of other schemes since it is linked with growth units, etc., but its comprehensive basis of coverage may be used as an example. I also believe that the Central Council for Medical Schemes can assist in this regard in preparing a draft, because they can draw on their experience in regard to medical aid services of this nature. I believe that this would be practicable if a consortium of existing insurance companies could be persuaded to work out and undertake such a scheme on a basis similar to the one on which the consortium of companies is handling third-party motor insurance at present. Sir, time does not permit me to elaborate on this important matter. What gives young married couples and families in the lower and middle income groups and farmers in the rural areas the greatest cause for concern is, in the first place, the question of how they are going to meet unforeseen medical expenses; how they are going to keep their heads above water if they should suddenly become disabled as a result of an accident or a chronic indisposition; how they are going to make ends meet in their old age without a pension or with a small pension. In other words, they are concerned about illness, disability, and a pension for their old age. The insurance and security element of such a scheme would gradually accumulate and would only yield its best fruit in years to come. I know that the agricultural unions have already given thought to such a plan, and that representations have also been submitted to the Minister and that he did not see his way clear to establishing a national scheme, but I want to plead with him once again to devote attention to this matter again, because to my mind this want is a very real one. I believe that if the co-operation of existing insurance companies could be obtained, it would in fact be possible to work out a comprehensive and an effective scheme. It is at least worth the trouble to devote attention to it, and this would be a scheme which would benefit this section of the population which I mentioned and which has been excluded from existing schemes. The necessity in this regard is knocking at the hospitable door of our helpful Minister.

Sir, I would like under this Vote to refer briefly to a world problem which is nonetheless a very serious one in our own country, a problem which I believe can only be dealt with by the Department which this Minister controls. I refer to the population explosion problem. Mr Chairman, this problem is the same everywhere, and that is that there is a very rapid increase taking place in the population amongst those who can least afford to rear their offspring. This in turn throws the burden on the State, which in effect is kept going by the minority. The result is further a shortage not only of food supplies but of other things which are so essential in a modern community, and here I am thinking of items such as housing, educational facilities, jobs, health services, etc.

Order! I do not think the hon. member can raise those matters under this Vote.

Sir, provision is made in the Estimates for a certain amount for family planning. That is the item which I am discussing. This fast increase results in the lowering of standards everywhere. It brings social problems such as nutritional diseases and many other problems. Many countries of the world have recognized this problem and even in some of the so-called under-developed and backward states steps have been taken to reduce this fast increase. We think, for example, of the spectacular results achieved in Japan, and we also read about the fine results achieved in countries like Pakistan and India, where very drastic measures are being taken, and even in a country like Egypt which is now embarking on a very big campaign in this direction.

Family planning to-day is a must in every country of the world. In South Africa we expect a population of 40 million or more by the end of this century, which means that in actual fact in the next 30 years we will more than double our present population. We ask ourselves whether we can feed and house and educate our population, and can we provide jobs for them? I must admit frankly that I do not think we can. If we cannot provide for this increase, what course is open to us? The course open to us, to my mind, is that we must reduce this very fast increase we are already suffering from a backlog in so many aspects of our national life, backlogs in housing and education, to mention only a couple.

I must at this stage make it clear that I do not think that this is a problem for only one race group or one section of the community, but unfortunately we find this increase to be greatest in the under-privileged and lower income groups of our population and we have to face the facts. These groups must be assisted to limit their families. One must further urge that assistance must be on a voluntary basis and not compulsory at all. Limitation of families is accepted by the vast majority. We hear that from welfare organizations and from persons dealing with this subject. Their only limiting factor is the shortage of funds.

Now I notice that in the Estimates provision has been made for a much larger sum of money for these services this year, namely R170,000 as compared to R100,000 last year, which shows that the Government is thinking in the right direction and is realizing the seriousness of the situation. But I maintain that more should be done. This is South Africa’s biggest problem. It is unfortunately a difficult and a delicate problem, but it must be solved. The solution is essential if we are to maintain our way of life. If this unchecked increase of the population is allowed, we shall have chaos not only in the economic and social spheres, but also on the political plane by the end of this century. We cannot close our eyes to this problem any longer. It is one of our most important problems, more important than apartheid or separate development and all the other problems we are struggling with here all the time. I must plead with the Minister that this problem must be faced, and that we must be bold and tackle it in a “kragdadige” way.

I hope the hon member for North Rand will forgive me if I do not follow his line of thought. I want to support the hon. member for Fauresmith in his plea for mentally and physically retarded people. In my constituency of Maitland there is the Alexandra Institute for mentally retarded children. I take a great deal of interest in that institution and I often go there, and I want to pay tribute to-day to the wonderful spirit of dedication and devotion to these poor children that I have seen there on the part of the medical and nursing staff. Everything possible is being done to make life pleasant for these children. I want to support the hon. member for Fauresmith in his plea to the Minister to take the initiative in training those unfortunate members of our population who cannot compete in the open labour market due to some physical impediment. I think a place should be found for them. Then I also want to appeal to the Minister to find a refuge and a place in society for those unfortunate people who are not mentally strong enough to be full citizens and to play their part as such, but who are not certifiable and therefore cannot be placed in homes. Something must be done to train them and to find some refuge for them.

I want to speak about what seems to me the Cinderella of the medical profession. I speak obviously as a layman and we all have the utmost admiration for Dr. Barnard and for the Groote Schuur Hospital and for what we have achieved in surgery and medicine. There is always public acclaim on the front pages of the Press for these doctors and it is right that it should be so, but I want to refer briefly to the problems of mental health, which is one of the greatest problems of illness. Mental illness is looked upon as one of the greatest problems of health in the world to-day. We know that at least 10 per cent of our population suffers in one way or another from mental disease or mental deviation An investigation made by Dr. Gilles in the Western Cape amongst our Coloured people in 1965 showed that 11.8 per cent of our Coloured people suffered from some form of mental deviation, and yet according to a statement in this House in 1967 by the hon. member for Brentwood, there are only 24,000 beds for the mentally ill in South Africa, mostly for the serious cases, and there are only 80 psychiatrists. So it is quite obvious that nothing really adequate can be done to help these people. It must be realized that mental illness is just illness like cancer or heart disease, and anyone can suffer from it. I want to appeal for more funds to combat this problem and for greater attention to be devoted to it.

Then there is a stigma attached to a mental hospital. I know people who know they should go for treatment, but they are afraid to go because of the stigma attached to it. I know of people who come back from mental hospitals and find that their families are ashamed of them because of this stigma. I think the Press should play its part in educating the public to accept the proper medical view that mental illness is just illness and has to be treated as such. These people should be looked after in every way. I know there is a shortage of land, but in my constituency there is the old institution of Valkenburg with plenty of land. The building is very old and the facilities do not seem to be adequate, but I want to appeal to the Minister to consider building a modern mental hospital on those grounds which will appeal to psychiatrists and other doctors to join that part of the profession and which will attract nurses to go and work there. I have had constant complaints that nurses do not want to work there because the facilities are inadequate.

There are two matters in regard to our mursing services which I should like to bring to the notice of the hon the Minister. They deal with one central idea, i.e. the status of our nurses. Thanks to the nursing techniques of to-day and thanks to the medicine which is available, more lives are being saved to-day than has ever been the case before. Diseases which a generation ago caused the death of the patient, are being dealt with effectively to-day. Patients who a decade or so ago would perhaps have died or become total invalids, are to-day enabled to return home, after being in hospital, as people who can lead a normal life. I say that in spite of all these things which are happening, this phenomenal progress in the sphere of health services, the position is that the status of our nurses has not been enhanced accordingly. The status of the nurse is still being associated with the idea that the nurse is a person who has to sweep hospital wards, fetch and carry food and put thermometers into the mouths of patients. But circumstances have changed completely. This is no longer the position. In her own right the nurse at present is really the substitute for the doctor at the bedside of the patient for whom she is responsible. In addition to that we must bear in mind that our nurses come from the very best homes of South Africa. If one looks at the background of our nurses, one finds that 47 per cent of them come from our farming community, 33 per cent from the ranks of the administrative staff, etc., and 20 per cent from the ranks of professional people. In other words, they represent the best human material we have in South Africa. Because of that background and because of their keenness to render their very best to the profession they love, and because of the fact that we have also created at our universities more extensive facilities for the training of our nurses, we find that at present a greater number of them have degrees and that it is no longer at all possible to refer to them as people who sweep wards, as though that were the only purpose for which they were any good.

But although this is the case, what do we find in practice. We find that for the purpose of determining salaries, the Public Service Commission is using a formula based on a Std. 8 school certificate, which is no longer valid in the nursing profession to-day. A very small percentage of the people who follow this profession to-day only have a Std. 8 certificate. In fact, the position is that in 1956 824 pupils started at four training schools.

Order! The hon. member is now dealing with a provincial matter.

With respect, Sir, I am trying to make out a case for elevating the status of nurses, and that matter can only be remedied by the Department of Health.

No, it is a provincial matter. The State grants subsidies to the provinces for that purpose, and it falls under a different Minister.

Mr. Chairman, I want to respect your ruling. I shall accept it. However, I just want to appeal to the hon. the Minister to make, on his part, the necessary representations for remedying this matter.

Order! The hon. member may not go on elaborating on this matter.

Sir, in that case may I just draw your attention to the fact that the hon. the Minister is also responsible for certain nursing services, and that it is not only provincial hospitals which have nursing staff. However, I accept your ruling.

Now I come to another matter for which the hon. the Minister is in fact responsible. It is the question of the academic entrance requirements for nurses. At the moment the entrance requirements are …

That matter has nothing to do with the Minister at all.

Mr. Chairman, with all due respect, I shall have to quote to you from the Act to prove to you that the Minister is responsible for it.

Academic matters are dealt with by the universities, and that matter falls under other Ministers.

Mr. Chairman, I must obey your ruling. I only hope that the Minister has taken cognizance of my representations in this regard.

Mr. Chairman, I am simply going to ask the hon. the Minister a question, recommend a certain course of action to him in connection with a certain matter, and then pass on to another subject. My question is to ask the hon. the Minister whether he is a member of the South African Medical Association. I assume he is.

Yes, and I am paying my dues.

Well, then the Minister is a card-carrying, dues-paying member of the South African Medical Association. With that in mind I want to recommend to the hon. the Minister that he take very serious cognizance of a leading article which appeared in the South African Medical Journal of the 3rd May, entitled “Salary Differentiation”, and that he also take note of a special bulletin, also issued by the Medical Association of South Africa, entitled “Discriminatory Salary Scales applicable to non-white Doctors employed by the Central Government and Provincial Administrations”. I hope that he will read those articles and that this will spare us a repetition of some of the sentiments he uttered earlier …

Order! That matter falls under another Vote.

I am aware of that, Sir, and therefore I am not going to pursue this matter in any detail at all. I am simply drawing the hon. the Minister’s attention to the fact that the views that he expressed differ materially from the views of the South African Medical Association. I should like to conclude on this subject by asking the hon. the Minister to use his not inconsiderable influence to see to it that the 17 doctors so far not re-accepted by the Director of Hospitals in Natal, be reappointed as speedily as possible.

Order! the hon. member must come back to the Vote.

All right, Sir, I shall come back to the Vote, you will be glad to hear. There are two other matters I want to raise with the hon. the Minister. One has to do with a matter raised earlier on by the hon. member for North Rand. I want, to some considerable extent, to support his plea for the extension of family planning. I did this last year, but the hon. the Minister was then not in charge of this portfolio. I think it is possible that one may now have a more sympathetic reception. I notice from the Estimates that the amount to be voted in respect of this particular item has increased by R70,000. I am very pleased about that. However, not only the voting of money for personnel, clinics, etc. is required here. There also has to be a new attitude to the propaganda one finds in this connection. I have had it drawn to my attention by social workers that there is considerable resentment in the non-white section of the country, because of the emphasis which is always placed on the need for family planning in the non-white groups. Propaganda which is made, talks which are given and newspaper items which appear are always directed at family planning for the non-white group. It is absolutely clear, of course, that the non-Whites largely represent the lower income groups, and therefore it is necessary that family planning be carried out essentially in these groups. There are also, however, lower income groups among the white people. Family planning is just as urgently required among these groups. The point I am trying to make is that one should use a little psychology in this regard; otherwise it becomes a sort of political matter with these people and this should not be the case. This should be something which is essentially presented to them for their own benefit, in order to improve the conditions of living of these non-white families. I should just like to bring this to the attention of the hon. the Minister.

The other question I want to raise, which is of very great importance indeed, is the whole question of malnutrition in South Africa. Of course, the family planning aspect is tied up here, because it is a well-known fact that the higher the standard of living, the fewer children in a family, and therefore the better chances there are that malnutrition will not occur in a family with fewer children.

You issued a disgraceful pamphlet in this regard, you know.

I am not talking about that. I am talking to the hon. the Minister, not to the would-be commissioner of the Transkei. There is nothing disgraceful about that pamphlet. What is disgraceful about this situation is not the issuing of a pamphlet. What is disgraceful, are the figures in regard to malnutrition in this country. I may say that these figures do not come from any political party. They were supplied as a result of a survey carried out by the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, which can hardly be considered a liberalistic organization. I have an official issue of the South African Medical Journal, which is devoted to the whole subject of malnutrition in South Africa. The figures revealed here are scandalous for a country with the resources we have. I see from the Estimates that we are voting the same amount as was voted last year, namely R90,000, for subsidies payable to local and Bantu authorities on skimmed milk powder. I want to put it to the hon. the Minister that this is not nearly enough.

What about the municipalities?

What should be done is to persuade the municipalities to take up these grants …

[Inaudible.]

I wish the hon. member would stand up and make his own speech. He has hardly spoken at all this year. I should very much like to hear him. I am always attentive when he speaks. [Interjections.] I shall be grateful if, when I am making a speech, he will be quiet. The point I am making with the hon. the Minister is that this amount is not enough, and that not enough is done to persuade local authorities to take advantage of this scheme either. It has been shown beyond doubt by medical experts that kwashiorkor could be wiped out almost immediately in South Africa if a half pint of skimmed milk per child daily were available. This involves a further distribution of skimmed milk. It involves the stopping of this ghastly waste, as described by articles in newspapers, where millions of gallons of skimmed milk are thrown away. If we cannot dehydrate the milk, and if the facilities are not available, for heavens sake let us arrange some form of distribution. We have cut out school feeding, and this should be reintroduced. One meal a day for the poorer children of this country of all races, but more particularly for this group, since this is the class affected by kwashiorkor, and the distribution of dried skimmed milk powder, or fresh skimmed milk, would wipe out this ghastly disease almost overnight. Our figures are really disgraceful, for a country which prides itself of being a developed, modern, industrial country. The figures are nearly as bad as those for some of the most underdeveloped areas in Africa and in India.

No.

There are figures, gathered by means of surveys by doctors, for a typical reserve in the Northern Transvaal, showing that about half the children who are born, die before they are five years of age. These figures have been compiled by doctors. I shall give this article to the hon. member to read. He will then see what I am talking about. This state of affairs is brought about largely as a result of malnutrition, and the fact that children who suffer from malnutrition are particularly susceptible to infective diseases and gastro-enteritis, which is also a great killer in South Africa. Coloured children, too, are particularly susceptible to kwashiorkor and pellagra. In 1968, for some reason or other, it was decided that kwashiorkor should no longer be a notifiable disease. I asked a question about this, and the only explanation that was ever given was the one given by the Under-Secretary for Health, which was published in an interview with Die Burger, where he said: “The disease is now completely under control and there is therefore no reason why kwashiorkor should remain a notifiable disease”. Sir, by any stretch of the imagination, and bearing in mind the survey which was carried out by the C.S.I.R., and the survey carried out by doctors, who produced this special medical journal on malnutrition, can we possibly say that kwashiorkor is under control and that there is no reason why it should be a notifiable disease? I want to ask the hon. the Minister, who is a doctor, unlike his predecessor, and who can understand what I am talking about, to reintroduce the regulation making it necessary to notify kwashiorkor, because only in that way will we be able to know the magnitude of the disease we are trying to combat. I want to point out that kwashiorkor has irreversible repercussions. If a child has suffered from kwashiorkor in the early years of his life, no matter how well-fed he is later on, he has suffered brain damage that cannot be reversed. This means a retarded population and a non-productive population. We are laying in store enormous problems for the future, if we do not tackle this disease now. It can be tackled cheaply and without much difficulty, because it is easily rectified by nutritional means such as fortified food and skimmed milk. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I should like to avail myself of this opportunity to say that I think the feeling on both sides of the House is that we want to welcome our new secretary here, i.e. General Raymond. I want to give him the assurance that we have every confidence in him as regards the performance of his great task. He can rely on us to make South Africa a healthy country.

The hon. member for Houghton asked the hon. the Minister certain pointed questions. I should also like to ask her a few pointed questions. The hon. member is a member of the Progressive Party, not so?

Yes, naturally.

The hon. member is the only mouthpiece of the Progressive Party in this Parliament.

As far as we know.

That is why I should like to refer to this pamphlet which was distributed by the Progressive Youth. Now, these pamphlets were not distributed amongst us, not amongst members of the public here, but in the evening, in the streets of Cape Town. In actual fact, the streets are littered with them. That is why I want to react to a few so-called facts which she stated in them. She did not furnish any statistics. I want to try to put this right.

What has it to do with the Vote?

It definitely has to do with this Vote.

The first statement in this pamphlet reads: “67 per cent of the Bantu in Johannesburg do not have enough to eat.”

That is a lie.

Why was that allegation made? That is not intended for South African consumption. It is done so that the outside world may know that although apparently everything is peaceful here, this is the world’s second Biafra. [Interjections.] I asked the hon. member whether she had any particulars. She replied that there were particulars. I want to tell hon. members the following: In conjunction with the Department, the National Nutrition Research Institute—i.e. in regard to the Bantu in Johannesburg—sent a questionnaire to all medical practitioners. Valuable information was collected from 200 medical practitioners and published during 1966. Out of a grand total of 195,175 Bantu and Coloureds representing all age groups, 1.6 per cent suffered from pellagra Out of the 94,433 Bantu and Coloured patients—not all of them, only the patients—under the age of 12 years, only 7.4 per cent suffered from a protein-calorie deficiency. And then the hon. member speaks of malnutrition. She claims that they do not get enough to eat. There are many people who in fact eat too much and may still suffer from malnutrition. There are thousands of them. One cannot five on poridge alone. One has to add milk to it. One has to eat vegetables and meat.

But that is not all. According to this inquiry the incidence of malnutrition in general is estimated at approximately 4 per cent. I shall mention examples. In Johannesburg a special study was made of 5,000 young children under the age of five years. It was found that only 3.8 per cent of this representative group suffered from kwashiorkor.

[Inaudible.]

The hon. member does not even know what “kwashiorkor” means. She referred to powdered milk. In 1966 almost 10 per cent of Krugersdorp’s Bantu children between the ages of six months and five years were treated for kwashiorkor. The incidence of this deficiency disease has shown a considerable decrease. At the end of 1968 only 70 children still needed powdered milk. This is the survey that was made in Johannesburg. She could have obtained this information before they littered the streets of Cape Town with this smear pamphlet. She could have asked the secretary about this. Surveys made in Johannesburg by the unban health staff, confirmed by consulting specialists in internal diseases, show that deficiency diseases are found amongst 5 to 10 per cent of the adult Bantu. Does this amount to 67 per cent who do not get enough to eat?

And then they add another statement to this. I loathe their making an instrument of political propaganda out of death and disease. They say: “50 per cent of the Bantu children in the Peninsula die before their fifth year.” Does this not amount to saying to the outside world, “This is a Biafra”? After all, we do have registration of births and deaths. What are the real figures: In 1967 96.4 deaths per 1.000 of the total number of infants born in the Cape Peninsula area were registered. They claim that 50 per cent of them die. The corrected figure for 1967, according to the Department, came to 13 per cent. Is this a death rate of 50 per cent?

Disgraceful!

That was in 1967. In 1968 there was a further improvement in the position. The infant death-rate for 1968 was 72.6 per 1,000 births. Approximately 8 per cent of them died before they reached the age of five years. Is that 50 per cent? After all, it is possible for one to correlate that figure. Every death has to be registered. It is possible for one to obtain the statistics. But all births are not registered. If one has the real birth-rate, that percentage will be even less. The hon. member knows that. And yet she still comes forward with these banal statements.

Is that not deliberate distortion?

Order!

I want to bring the hon. members of the Opposition into this. At the beginning of this Session we heard the moans and groans about Limehill. They shouted along with her. I am now asking the Opposition to rise and tell us whether they also accept this pamphlet of the hon. member for Houghton.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member who has just sat down, dealt with a pamphlet issued by the Progressive Party which I have not seen. I am, therefore, not in a position to say whether I agree or disagree with the figures. But I want to say to the hon. member that it is common knowledge that more than one university institution in South Africa have issued figures to show that the poverty datum line of the Bantu is round about 70 per cent. If this is so, I believe that it does somewhat support the statement that malnutrition in South Africa stands at a higher figure than any country could be satisfied with.

I should like to ask the hon. the Minister something entirely different. It concerns the question of ambulance services throughout South Africa. The hon. the Minister has received a report from Lions in regard to ambulance services. I am not aware of whether he has had time to study this report or pass it on to the necessary authorities. I should like to add my plea to that of the Lions in their report by reminding the hon. the Minister and this Committee of one or two matters relating to ambulance services. The first report was sent to the then Minister of Health in 1963. The report asked for a commission to be appointed to investigate the whole aspect of ambulance services throughout the Republic of South Africa. It was suggested at that time that a commission be formed consisting of representatives from the provinces, local authorities, medical schools and all bodies interested in this particular aspect. Nothing has come of this report. That is why I raise the matter to-day to add my plea to that of the memorandum submitted to the hon. the Minister. The facts of the matter are quite clear. Within the ten-year period, ending in 1961, deaths in road accidents came to over 207 per cent. Injured people came to 160 per cent. That is an increase over the previous period. In respect of vehicles on the road the increase amounted to 91 per cent. It is obvious that something has to be done in this respect. By its very nature it cannot be done by small local authorities. It is something that has to be done by the Department itself. The department will have to co-ordinate the whole aspect in regard to this matter. I suppose it will be quite right to say that the road accident rate in South Africa is probably one of the highest in the world. It is a certainly among the highest in the world.

Is it not perhaps due to the fact that we drive on the left-hand side?

Very clever.

Perhaps it would be better if we drove a little more to the left than to the right. I do not intend to go into this aspect with this particular hon. Minister, but I should like to question the fact whether our ambulance services have kept up to date with the increase in vehicles and the increase in the number of accidents in South Africa. I should like to point out to the hon. the Minister one or two aspects of this. In recent months we have had on the Reef the position that there have been disputes as to which ambulance would attend to a particular accident. I do not believe that this can be sorted out by anybody else except the hon. the Minister. We have had cases where people lay injured at the scene of an accident for hours while local authorities were trying to sort out whose responsibility it was. We have had the ease where the wrong ambulance for the wrong race group had been sent to the scene of an accident, with the result that the injured person was left lying there as well. I should like to say to the hon. the Minister that as far as I am concerned, this is carrying apartheid to rather callous extremes. If anybody I know is involved in an accident, my feeling is, no matter what ambulance comes along, that the first ambulance which arrives on the scene, can take them to wherever they have to go.

[Inaudible]

The hon. member for Vryheid would in fact prefer to lie on the road injured than be picked up by an ambulance meant for a member of another race group.

Ask Ken le’Strange what happened in Durban to him.

When this happens I believe, and I repeat what I said just now, that this is making the whole philosophy of apartheid look a little silly.

It is silly.

Not only is it silly, but it is callous and cruel to the persons who are injured. I think it is about time that the hon. the Minister’s Department gave specific instructions on this matter. If anybody is injured, then for heaven’s sake, get him to the nearest place of attention, regardless of the ambulance and whether it is pink, white, blue or yellow. There are other aspects in regard to ambulance services about which the Minister will know, as they are contained in the memorandum sent to him. In London an ambulance can reach the scene of an accident in an area of 117 square miles in seven minutes. It can return to hospital within 14 minutes. In New York within 320 square miles an ambulance can reach the scene of an accident in 10 or 15 minutes. The hon. the Minister knows, and I am sure everybody in this Committee knows, that in the largest cities of South Africa it is impossible for an ambulance to reach the scene of an accident and return to the hospital, particularly in peak hours, in anything under two or three hours. This is not unusual. It happens in all our cities. It is nobody’s fault, but I do believe that it is up to the Minister’s Department to have an investigation into the matter to see what can be done. The hon. the Minister knows, as well as I do. that on some of our busier roads, particularly the main road between Durban and Pietermaritzburg, people who have been seriously injured in accidents may, because of the distance involved and the time factor in getting through busy traffic at peak hours, lie on the side of the road for three or four hours. I should like to suggest to the hon. the Minister that only he can look into this matter in a proper light. If this was done I am quite sure that if the co-operation of the Army and the Police could be obtained, a helicopter ambulance service could be made available on these main arterial roads. I do not suggest for one moment that each local authority could afford to have a helicopter ambulance, but if some arrangement was made with the Police or the Army where these helicopters are based, I am quite sure that they would be only too willing to cart these injured people to hospital when they are injured in areas which are inaccessible or some distance away from a hospital. I do not believe that local authorities can any longer afford to finance the very expensive ambulance services that they have to maintain. I do not know of any city in South Africa that can any longer afford to maintain these big ambulance fleets at the expense of the ratepayer. I believe that this commission of inquiry set up by the hon. the Minister could go into the whole aspect of ambulance services, the training of their crews, the equipment of the ambulances and whether, for instance, ambulances should have a two-way radio so that they could be diverted to emergencies when on its way to less urgent cases. I leave these thoughts with the hon. the Minister, hoping that after this long period of delay some action will be taken in this matter.

Mr. Chairman, having listened to the hon. member for Waterberg this afternoon, I simply cannot help saying that when Mary Tudor was alive there were still no remedies for migraine. If every body knows migraine as we who suffer from it do, it is no wonder to me that they eventually decapitated her in desperation. I wonder whether to-day that is not still the only effective treatment.

In the last few seconds of this rapidly moving debate I just want to call attention to a few aspects. The Department of Health has, inter alia, two very important functions, i.e. to prepare and publish reports and statistics or other data relating to public health and, amongst other things, also to promote public health. Until recently the approach in medical science was to cure people and to prevent diseases, but not to promote good health. Here I want to associate myself with what the hon. member for Durban (Central) said. Good health enhances the productivity and the usefulness of our people in society. We do not always appreciate this. The onslaughts made by medical science has resulted in our conquering infectious and many other diseases. To-day we have in actual fact become obsessed with technical skills in surgery. But in society we have to do with numerous semi-healthy persons. We still find a tremendously great deal of under-nourishment and malnutrition amongst our people. In addition there are many other abuses as regards the health of our people to which we are, to my mind, not devoting the necessary attention at this particular stage and in regard to which people are still ignorant. That is why some of the most common epidemic and infectious diseases are still so commonly found amongst our people. They are still found, in particular, amongst our non-Whites in the Bantu communities. As far as I am concerned, the alarming fact is that amongst members of our white population who maintain a tremendously high standard of living in an era of good living, we still find that we have in the form of malignant diseases, cirrhosis of the liver and mental diseases, major factors cutting off the lives of many. As far as heart diseases are concerned, approximately 35 per cent of our men die in the most productive period of their lives in one specific year. In one year’s time 4,283 men, of whom many were still in their prime, died in South Africa. As against that 2,232 women died. Many of these deaths could have been prevented or delayed if there had only been a little elementary knowledge about the prevention of heart diseases and a better way of life for promoting good health. I want to express the thought to-day that we should, as a matter of national importance, give top priority to a planned system of health guidance aimed at the improvement and the maintenance of good health, physically and mentally. I regard this as one of the most important functions of our Department, since the medical professional group of people who are responsible for sick people would always prefer to go in for the healing and surgical aspects. This problem was mentioned as far back as 1959, in the first interim report of the Borekenhagen Commission. This brings me to my main theme, i.e. that the State should endeavour, by means of a comprehensive guidance service, to make our public more health conscious. I have merely to think of the large number of our members of Parliament who regularly avail themselves of lifts in order to reach the third or fourth floor. They can promote their health and make better use of their time by merely spending that extra half minute on regularly making use of the stairs.

Hear, hear!

The most appropriate time is now, because public attention is concentrated to-day on medical science and its miracles, even though it is on the more dramatic aspect of medical science. In that respect I think that we are not concentrating on the best aspect of medical knowledge: the aspect which can give good health and which will prevent us from having to deal later on with a large number of semi-healthy people. So many men in the prime of their lives are disappearing while they still look healthy. This is the kind of robust health which already carries the seeds of ruin in it. We must foresee and plan for phenomena such as under-nourishment and malnutrition. In my plea for guidance I am also advocating planning in respect of our health services and that we have regard to problems such as the increase in population and family planning, which are of course connected with this matter. In the year 2000 we shall probably have a population of approximately 40 million in South Africa.

Actually, I want to conclude with this, because our time is limited. I know that the State is doing its duty in this regard. I know that various departments are doing their duty in regard to health and guidance, such as the Department of Social Welfare, the Department of National Education, and also the Department of Bantu Administration. But these are fragmentary guidance services. I should like to see an integrated health guidance service being introduced, with full utilization of the mass media we have at present, namely the Press, the radio and films. The Whites will derive greater benefit from this. But the non-Whites are also listening more readily to the radio, although at this stage the Bantu will not yet be able to derive full benefit from that. In conclusion I want to congratulate the Department of Health on the training of health guidance officers and health educators in the Bantu areas. I think 27 of them qualified last year. These people are doing very good work. But, in conclusion, I am asking for this integrated organization which will disseminate information on an expert basis to all strata of our community. I think that if we do it in this way, we shall be making proper use of these instruments, and we shall be performing an important national task which will yield many dividends, not only to-day, but also in the future in a country in which we cannot afford to lose one member of our white labour force, i.e. one who could be healthy.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Gordonia has suggested certain health hints, and I just want to say in passing that I have always believed that walking down the stairs is better than walking up the stairs.

I was talking to you then.

There are one or two matters I want to raise with the hon. the Minister. The one is a perennial, but it is unlike the perennial which is planted in my home garden, because the one I wish to refer to does not seem to flower. I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether he can give us some information as to what is happening about this nursing commission. The hon. the Minister knows that it was appointed in 1964 by his predecessor and it had the task to investigate the conditions of the training of nurses. I have asked questions each year as to when this commission is likely to report. I think the last information I had from the hon. the Minister was that he hoped to get the report during April or May of this year. We have reached the end of May, but I doubt whether he has got the report. I would suggest to the hon. the Minister to sack the Commission and to do this job himself, because it is an important matter and it is a matter which should be attended to.

They are doing very good work.

Well, after five years, we have seen nothing. If we had a report, we should have known that something has been done at least.

The other matter the hon. the Minister has referred to before, and which we discussed last year, is the review of the powers and control of various health services, following from the Borckenhagen and Schumann Commissions reports. Can the hon. the Minister tell us how far that is progressing? Last year it was promised that a White Paper was being prepared and that the information would be laid before the House, but 12 months have elapsed and we have not received anything. Then I am going to lodge my third complaint in regard to a certain matter. I want to tell the hon. Minister that it would help the work of this House considerably if we can have the report of the Secretary for Health for the preceding year before we discuss this Vote. It is not much use to us if we receive this report in the recess because the figures are out of date and the information is out of date by the time we come to discuss the Vote in Parliament the following year.

Then I want to mention another matter to the hon. the Minister, and it is a matter concerning all of us who are in some way connected with hospitals. There seems to be growing an extreme pressure on hospitals in so far as services to out-patients are concerned. I raise this with the hon. the Minister because I believe that it is due to some extent, if not to a very great extent, to the fact that there is no adequate buffer in so far as preventative medicine is concerned, between the home and the hospital. When one gets the situation, as we have now at the Groote Schuur Hospital for instance, where there are 2,000 out-patients per day, it is becoming an impossible task to handle them. The provinces are finding this difficulty, and many of the people who come there could well have been dealt with by district nurses or dealt with in some way at their homes so that they did not have to come to the hospitals. One of the reasons for this is, I suggest, a shortage of staff. I want to raise one matter with the Minister and I hope he will go into it. There are many nurses who do not wish to continue in hospitals and who after their three years training period give up their jobs. They could be well absorbed by the preventative medical nursing services, which fall under this Minister. That includes home nursing, school nursing, the inspecting of schools, and district nursing, and I believe that not sufficient help is given to those women to do what is a post-training course, namely a course in public health nursing. If a nurse qualifies in a provincial hospital and then goes on to do a course at the technical colleges in public health, she is given paid leave in which to do the course. If she desires to take the course, after a short period of retirement from nursing services. I understand that a small grant is paid to her something like R520 per annum. She is paid that amount for the purpose of undertaking that course. My inquiries have indicated to me that the technical college fees and exam fees amount to about R200 per annum. The woman who wishes to take up district nursing is then left with the small amount of R300 with which to sustain herself, clothe herself, provide for travelling and so forth, during the period of training.

There is a great demand for these Public Health trained nurses and I am sure that one would be able to attract a large number of married women, women who cannot find the time to do normal hospital nursing but who would be available for the Minister’s Department to undertake this type of work. I hone that the hon. the Minister will give thought and attention to this matter and indicate what he has in mind to try to stimulate this aspect of training.

Then there is a final matter which I wish to raise with the hon. the Minister and that is whether he is satisfied that there is a sufficiently comprehensive plan for medical inspections at schools. The hon. the Minister shakes his head Perhaps this is not a matter which falls directly under him.

Order! The hon. member must confine himself to the Vote under discussion.

The Minister of Health as such, at the present moment, is concerning himself with the co-ordination of health services throughout the country and I wonder whether he is satisfied that this very important aspect of national health is being sufficiently attended to. After all, it is quite simple for the Minister, if he feels that it is not being sufficiently attended to, to co-ordinate it with the general preventive health measures for which he is responsible. I think the Minister will agree with me that one of the most important preventive health measures is to check disease in every possible field at the earliest possible moment. I should like the hon. the Minister to give us his views in regard to this aspect of medical services.

Mr. Chairman, I want to thank hon. members who referred to my appointment as Minister of Health. I may just say in passing that it is a very pleasant task to perform. I can remember very well that when I came here in 1953 I was the only medical doctor on this side of the House, and that on the other side of the House there were only two. Dr. Steytler and Dr. Zac de Beer, and two dentists, the Shearer brothers. To-day we have a much better situation in the House, which I welcome.

Is that because of the 50 per cent faulty diagnosis of the election results?

No, 15 per cent!

The hon. member for Green Point referred to the report of the Secretary for Health. It is quite true that the report has not been made available for quite some considerable time. I would like to inform the hon. member that the Afrikaans text of the report for the two-year period 1965-’67 is at the moment being printed, and I hope that the English text will reach the Government Printer by next week. I do not think that it will be ready to be laid on the Table this Session, but the report for 1967-’69 is already in the process of being prepared, and that report as well as the report for 1965-’67 will be laid upon the Table next session, with the result that we will then have the reports up to date.

It would facilitate discussion.

Yes, I think that would greatly assist hon. members in discussing the Vote. Sir, the hon. member then mentioned the Borckenhagen and Schumann reports. The White Paper is being prepared, but I am not in a position to say whether it will be made available during this Session. I would like to give the hon. member the assurance that as far as I know it will definitely be available next session. With regard to the report of the Commission on Nursing, the position is that this commission has been sitting for quite some time. It has covered a very wide field. I have twice had discussions with the chairman, and I was promised the report by April, but apparently they had some difficulty in getting hold of one or two members who were overseas; so it seems to me that the report will not be available this Session either.

Then I come to the hon. member for Durban (Central). The hon. member raised the question of the Public Health Act of 1919 and expressed the opinion that the time is long overdue for that Act to be consolidated, I can assure the hon. member that that is also the view of this Department and we intend tackling this job as soon as a decision is taken on the recommendations contained in the Borckenhagen and Schumann reports. It would be foolish to re-write and consolidate the Act before a decision is taken on those recommendations.

Then the hon. member raised the question of air pollution which, of course, is a very important matter. I should like to tell the hon. member that the National Advisory Committee on Air Pollution has been very active since its establishment some three years ago. It held 18 meetings to organize its work and there are a number of sub-committees working as well. Their approach to the problem has been to solicit the co-operation of local authorities and industrialists, and to that end propaganda has been undertaken in the form of film shows, newspaper articles, seminars and personal visits to industrialists by the chairman and the technical staff. This, of course, is a tremendous job. In order to become au fait with the latest developments in this field both the chairman and other members of the board paid visits overseas on, I think, two occasions. The committee’s activities have been carried out in close co-operation with other Government Departments and attention has also been given to the training of personnel in controlling smoke and similar nuisances. Hon. members will realize that trained personnel to do this have not been available in South Africa. I must say that the hon. member for Durban (Central) has not been so forthcoming about Durban, because his own city is certainly the city that has done most in regard to this question of combating air pollution, and I am very grateful to the authorities there for what they have done up to now. Several areas have already been declared to be smoke-controlled zones under the Act, and a set of smoke-controlled regulations has been drawn up for the guidance of local authorities.

The other question which he stressed is the question of fumes from diesel engines. In this connection the National Air Pollution Advisory Committee has decided that this aspect of air pollution, purely for technical reasons, should be dealt with under the provincial traffic ordinances, and the proposed traffic regulations in respect of diesel vehicles will shortly be referred to the inter-provincial advisory council.

*The hon. member for Gordonia mentioned the question of too little exercise, as well as the question of coronary diseases. As the hon. member knows a symposium was held in Pretoria on 12th and 13th August of last year in which many leading authorities from abroad and also of our own country participated. It was a very good symposium, and one of the things which emerged very clearly there, was that there are a multitude of factors influencing the incidence of coronary heart diseases. I do not want to enter into the details now, but hon. members may be interested to know what the recommendations were. One of the recommendations was that people who are susceptible to coronary heart diseases should be identified at an early age by means of clinical and biochemical examinations, and that special attention should be paid to persons with a family history of coronary heart disease, such as myself, in whose case hereditary metabolic factors may play a part; secondly that these susceptible groups should be encouraged by means of guidance to avoid a diet which is rich in saturated fats and refined carbohydrates; to control the weight carefully; to do regular physical exercises; to alleviate mental stress by partaking in regular pastimes and recreation; and to smoke fewer cigarettes. It is rather interesting that it is recommended here that people should smoke less and that smoking is not prohibited altogether. In the third place it is recommended that research into coronary heart disease be undertaken in the Republic of South Africa, especially because the diversity of population groups lends itself excellent to such research. I am sure that this aspect will also receive attention as soon as the new Medical Research Board comes into operation.

†The hon. member for Port Natal raised the question of ambulance services and referred to a letter from the Lions organization. We have already replied to this letter. May I say to the hon. member that one of the difficulties, or perhaps the main difficulty, in regard to ambulance services is the many authorities responsible for providing ambulance services. In saying that I am not in any way implying that local authorities, the provincial administrations and our own Department are not doing excellent work, but when you have divided control you have the sort of difficulties that we run into in practice. The hon. member also referred to what he called “apartheid” in ambulance services. Let me say immediately that there are very good reasons—and I do not propose to go into those reasons at the moment—why the provincial administrations and the local authorities and our own Department and all concerned, have separate ambulances for the different racial groups. There are very good reasons for it and this practice must be continued. But may I also say that it is not in conflict with Government policy at all, in case of emergency, to use whatever ambulance is available.

Hear, hear!

At last you are getting a little bit of sense.

I should like officials, policemen and everybody concerned to take note of the fact that when they have to deal with an emergency, as in the case of the victim of a road accident, they must make use of the first ambulance that turns up.

*The hon. member for Brentwood quoted striking figures here in regard to the question of the so-called under-nourishment. Mr. Chairman, I call it “so-called under-nourishment or malnutrition” in South Africa, because if one would just keep one’s eyes open one would realize that nutrition in South Africa is on a much higher level than it is in many other countries of the world. The attempt made by the hon. member for Houghton to compare the malnutrition conditions in South Africa with conditions in India is quite unfair, but it links up, of course, with the figures appearing in the pamphlet from which the hon. member for Brentwood quoted.

†I should like to read out to the hon. member what the position is with regard to malnutrition—

this is from the Regional Director of the State Health Service—

not 50 per cent—

That is very high.

It is very high, but I think it is reasonable to say that the two figures for the Cape Town Divisional Council and the Divisional Council of Worcester must be unreliable because the figures for the others are so much lower. I may point out to the hon. member that in all the calculations, except in the case of the Cape Town Municipality, where corrections have already been made for births not registered with the Divisional Council, no allowance has been made for births not registered. These are not inconsiderable and make the figures unreliable. In contrast, all deaths are notified, and this can give an exaggerated picture of the number of deaths. In other words, the figures that I quoted here, if anything, must be lower. I think it is doing South Africa a great disservice to say that 50 per cent of children die before reaching the age of five years. There is no truth in that whatsoever. On this question of malnutrition I may also give this information as far as Tuberculosis is concerned—

That has been the assumption all these years. In this connection I wish to state that during the past 10 years the World Health Organization and the British Medical Research Council have clearly demonstrated that the diet is unimportant, both in response to treatment and in the occurrence or relapse of tuberculosis. To me that is quite an astonishing finding. The factor of overriding importance is the prevention of the disease by isolation of intense cases, and the administration of effective therapy for an adequate period of time.

Then the hon. member, and also the hon. member for North Rand, raised the question of family planning. May I say that family planning in South Africa is strictly on a voluntary basis and I can assure the hon. member that it will remain that way. Secondly, it is very necessary, especially in regard to the non-Whites, to have their own people advising and instructing them in regard to family planning. Family planning in South Africa is done solely for health reasons. My Department will not touch anything that is done for any other reason, but that does not mean that there is not a great demand and a great necessity for family planning in South Africa. I may say that we have prepared films on this subject which will be shown both to the non-white communities and to the white inhabitants of the Republic. But there can be no question of compulsion whatever.

Then the hon. member referred me to the S.A. Medical Association and the leading article—I have it in my pocket—in regard to the differentiation in salary scales of Whites, Coloureds, Indians and Bantu. Of course this is not a question to be discussed here because this is not the appropriate time, but I invite the hon. member to raise this issue later in the Session when an opportunity therefor will arise, because I would like an opportunity to reply in full on this question of the differentiation in salaries, which I think is very necessary.

Under the Interior Vote?

Well, we will have another sort of miniature Budget debate before the end of the Session, but we can in any case have a discussion before the end of the Session.

*The hon. member for Springs mentioned a few problems in connection with the nurses. He confined himself to the status of the nurses, and I may just say that the hon. member spoke about this matter because he knew what he was talking about, as he has been a member of the Nursing Council for many years, and I am grateful for the work he is doing there. I fully agree that every possible opportunity should be used to raise the status of the nurses. I may just say that this has in fact come about in recent years, because, as you know, we already have two faculties of nursing: at the University of Pretoria and at the University of Bloemfontein. I am grateful that he touched upon this and that this has come to the fore once again, because I think that if there is one profession which deserves the highest respect of the public it is the nursing profession.

†The hon. member for Maitland raised the question of mental illness, and from what he said, it was quite evident to me that he had a thorough grasp of what it is all about. The hon. member is quite right in saying that there should be no stigma attached to a person who has had treatment for mental illness of some kind, because, after all, the percentage of complete cures is very high indeed these days. I should like to take this opportunity to encourage everybody who needs this treatment, or members of their families, to undergo psychiatric treatment. The hon. member did not raise this, but I might tell him that in regard to the Brooklyn Chest Hospital, which he raised with me on previous occasions, we might be able to assist him, because that is a very good hospital. But the fact that it caters for non-Whites in a white residential area is, of course, against Government policy, and something will have to be done about that in the near future.

Does the same argument apply then to non-White hospitals in the White areas that I represent?

I do not know which institution the hon. member is referring to, but if the hon. member will let us have the names we will go into the matter and let him know. I may say to the hon. member that in regard to psychiatric treatment, the hospitals being planned in the Bantu homelands will not be hospitals for psychiatric patients but ordinary hospitals, but one hospital will cater for both and there will be a psychiatric section in the general hospital, which I think is also a step in the direction of the hon. member’s contention.

*The hon. member for North Rand actually spoke about an agricultural matter, the population explosion. He also mentioned the question of family planning, to which I replied when replying to the hon. member for Houghton. I may just tell the hon. member that we feel very strongly about the fact that the guidance given to the various race groups should be given by their own people.

The hon. member for Marico made me feel very good, because if he looks at Hansard, vol. 82, col. 661, of 1953, he will see that the theme of his speech is exactly the same as that of my maiden speech in this House. But we have come a long way since those days. I am glad this has come from an hon. member representing a rural area, because he asked whether there could not be any medical schemes for the farming community, which is not provided for at present, and he pointed out that for a young married couple, or even for other people, it was a nightmare to think of their possibly being ruined financially as a result of protracted illness. In that there was no reflection on the people who have to provide the services, but he expressed his concern very clearly. I may just tell him that the Medical Schemes Act is not there to establish schemes, but to exercise control over schemes and to see to it that the benefits for members are provided in such a way that the members are not exploited. As regards the farming community, I know that the agricultural unions are working on this, and the Orange Free State already has a scheme for the farmers of the Free State, through the agency of the Free State Agricultural Union. It is no longer merely a proposed scheme; it has become an accomplished fact there, and I hope it will also be extended, and I want to encourage this, to all the provinces and all the farmers in the country. The hon. member spoke about a State-aided, comprehensive medical scheme. I may tell him the answer to that is no, because we have made enormous progress with the provision of schemes where the contributions of the members are sufficient to cover all costs which could possibly result in financial ruin. If the hon. member has specific problems in this connection now, there is in any event the possibility at this stage of obtaining medical insurance. My own family and I have carried this for many years now, for almost 12 years.

But it is expensive.

No, it is not so expensive. For my wife, my four children, and myself I am paying R13 per month, and it even covers dental services and medicine. It is an individual scheme, and I may just say that we were covered even for the three years we were in London. I realize that the premium is not very low, but I want to point out to hon. members that the costs of medical services, and of the apparatus used, are so enormously high these days that only one little illness sends R13 down the drain. The salvation of our people lies in medical insurance under some scheme or other. If we can achieve the position that the entire population is covered by it, then we shall have prevented the evil of a State medical service in South Africa, which is something that I can never allow in this country.

†The hon. member for Berea spoke about drug distribution and the potentially harmful drugs distributed by unregistered persons, and he gave us some very interesting facts. I might tell the hon. member that since we last discussed this matter it is now being considered by the S.A. Pharmaceutical Council and my Department and I are awaiting their recommendations in this regard.

*The hon. member for Waterberg also raised the matter of migraine in a very skilful way. There was some laughter while he spoke, but the laughter was not about the migraine, but about the striking way in which he stated the matter. But let me say that the question of migraine is a very serious one, because it is not merely unpleasant for the people who suffer from it, but also very painful. This is really the case. Unfortunately I can do only two things about this. I do not think it is necessary to appoint a commission of inquiry about it, but I shall again bring it to the notice of our training centres, the medical schools. I think it should occupy a more important place in the training of our doctors than is the case at present. In the second place, the hon. member read certain letters to us which showed how many people were interested in this matter, and it was very clear to me from the letters, especially from the one written by the lady about her twins, that one knows what to do if one wants children in the family and that one knows what to do if there should be no children, but that no one knows what to do if one really wants to combat migraine. I think in this connection it will be of very great use if the Medical Research Board, which has now been established, will have research undertaken specifically in this direction by some or other university, or by universities, and I shall certainly undertake to bring these matters to their notice.

†Then the hon. member for Rosettenville raised the question of the shortage of doctors. I may tell the hon. member that as far as our medical schools are concerned, this year 397 doctors will qualify at the different medical schools and it will be possible by 1974 that 602 will qualify from the existing schools. This figure can be raised slightly but not very much, because as the hon. member quite rightly pointed out, a class of from 100 to 125 students is about the maximum any medical school can carry. I have the report here in my hand of the committee which investigated medical training, and I may say that I have the matter before the Cabinet at this moment and perhaps I will make an announcement in the near future in regard to future medical schools in South Africa.

The hon. member for Durban (Central) raised the question of hearing. As the hon. member knows, there was a commission of inquiry into the question of hearing aids and what goes with it. This report was handed to the department, I think, in 1966 or 1967. A few weeks ago I asked the chairman and a member of the committee to come and see me and on their advice I referred this report back to them because after two years certain developments had taken place. They are bringing this report up to date now and it will be brought to finality in the recess.

*The hon. member for Fauresmith and the hon. member for Maitland referred to the very important matter of our mentally retarded persons. I want to tell the hon. member that the report of the Van Wyk Committee is already available in Afrikaans. The English text will be available shortly. The Afrikaans text has been available since February. The whole matter dealt with in this report was investigated very thoroughly. It is clear that the Department of Health, the Department of Labour and the Department of National Education all three have a function to fulfil. I firmly believe that these children can be educated, or can be taught something, in some way or other. The idea is also brought forward in this report that those who can be educated are not actually cases for the Department of Health, but cases for the Department of National Education. I want to thank the hon. member, however, for raising this matter. It is one to which we are paying serious attention at the moment.

I also want to tell the hon. member that a research project is at present being conducted by the C.S.I.R. in regard to mental retardation and guidance to parents. This project forms part of the C.S.I.R.’s research work, but will now be transferred to the Medical Research Board. As regards the physically retarded, the hon. member will realize that this is to a very large extent a matter for the Department of Social Welfare and Pensions or the Department of Labour. The Department of Health intends expanding the work therapy divisions of our own institutions to a very large extent. I hope that we shall eventually succeed in getting our industries to give assistance here, because such people are perfectly capable of performing routine jobs. I think this will answer hon. member’s questions. However, there are three further matters I want to mention.

Mr. Chairman, I wonder whether the hon. the Minister would just answer my question as to whether he is prepared to make kwashiorkor a notifiable disease?

Mr. Chairman, I am not prepared to give an undertaking that I shall do so. The incidence of this disease is in fact so low in South Africa—I think it is something like 4 per cent—that I do not consider it justified to make it a notifiable disease. We are at present considering other matters, for example the notifiability of coronary diseases.

Hardly the same incidence.

Yes, I agree with the hon. member. One does not want to impose too many burdens on our doctors or our hospitals, but in the case of a disease such as kwashiorkor, which really does not merit it, I cannot give her the undertaking that I will make it notifiable.

I should like to say something in connection with Police investigations in regard to district surgeonships. From time to time hon. members have read newspaper reports of doctors or groups of doctors having appeared in magistrates’ courts. Certain cases have already been decided. Several doctors have been acquitted. Some were found guilty on minor charges, and a few, of course, were found guilty on major charges. Unfortunately the impression exists that these Police investigations and prosecutions of district surgeons were initiated by the Department of Health. This is not true, and for this reason I want to read out a short statement in this connection. Approximately two years ago it came to the notice of the Secretary for Health that the Commissioner of Police was concerned about the increase in the cost of drugs that were provided to members of the Police Force and their dependants by prescription of district surgeons. It appears that the Police had for some considerable time been conducting an investigation of which the Department of Health had no knowledge whatsoever. It was only later, after the arrest of a part-time district surgeon in the Orange Free State, that the Department learnt, through a Press report, of a large number of charges of fraud against the district surgeon concerned, and upon inquiry it was found that the Police were conducting preliminary investigations at various places. Several district surgeons have since been arrested on charges of fraud, and in some cases found guilty, while others have been found not guilty, and the investigation is being continued on a country-wide basis. This has resulted in the Police demanding certain documents from the Department of Health for the necessary investigation, but it must be made clear that the initiative in connection with the entire matter came from the Police. The Police, of course, are carrying out their duties, and there can be no criticism in that regard. It would be wrong, however, to think that these investigations were initiated by the Department of Health.

Another matter I want to mention concerns the responsibilities of medical and administrative staff in the administration of departmental hospitals and institutions. The present dispensation in regard to the administration of hospitals and institutions in terms of which a division of responsibilities between the medical and administrative staff was brought about, has been changed. The position is now as follows: The senior State medical officers or the senior psychiatrist of a hospital or institution, who will in future be known as the “superintendent”, is fully responsible for the efficient administration thereof.

In other words, the administration of a hospital or an institution now falls under the charge of the medically qualified person, and not under an administrative person, as the position was during the past years. Where there is no full-time medical officer or psychiatrist at a hospital or an institution, the Secretary will appoint an acting superintendent. Then there are also a few administrative arrangements, which I do not want to mention now.

The last matter I want to mention concerns the Secretary of Health, Dr. C. A. M. Murray. Dr. Murray will retire from the service of the Department on 1st July. Dr. Murray entered the service of the Department as a temporary assistant pathologist in Cape Town on 1st March, 1934. He served as an additional assistant pathologist for a considerable time. Then he became a medical inspector in Durban. After that he was assistant health officer at our head office in Pretoria and after that he was health officer in Durban. This was in 1947. It is interesting to note that the salary scale attached to that post was £1,200 at the time, i.e. R2,400 per annum. Then he became deputy chief health officer in Johannesburg, and later a regional director. After that he was transferred to head office, and he will have served as Secretary for Health from 1st November, 1966, until he retires in July. At present he is on three-months’ leave. I want to avail myself of this opportunity to express my gratitude and appreciation towards a very loyal and very distinguished officer, who has served the Department of Health for many years. I also want to thank him for his cooperation with me personally during the short while I have worked together with him. I want to wish him a very pleasant time of rest. As regards his family, I want to wish them health as well, because this is the one thing they really need.

Then I want to say that I am glad that General Raymond will fill the post of Secretary for Health as from 1st July. He has occupied the post in an acting capacity since 1st April. General Raymond qualified at the University of Cape Town. After a period of hospital service and private practice, he joined the Permanent Force in 1956. First he was appointed second in command of a military hospital, later as officer in command, and from 1960 he was Surgeon-General. At present he has the rank of Major-General. I should like to draw the attention of the House to the fact that, in recognition of exceptional service, the Southern Cross Medal was awarded to him in 1961, and I want to congratulate him very sincerely, because recently the highest peace-time decoration, i.e. the Star of South Africa, was also awarded to him for outstanding services. I want to convey my sincere congratulations to him, and I look forward to a pleasant term of service in co-operation with him in this Department, where he, as a medical practitioner too, will carry on the good work he did while he was in the Defence Force.

May I ask the hon. the Minister a question? The hon. the Minister did not answer my question in regard to diabetic foods. I hope he has not overlooked this question.

It was just an oversight. The hon. member made the point that the price of diabetic foods has risen considerably in recent times. That is, of course, not a matter for the Department of Health, but my Department will bring this matter to the urgent attention of the Department of Industries.

Votes put and agreed to.

Chairman directed to report progress to enable the Deputy Minister of Finance to lay further taxation proposals upon the Table.

House Resumed:

Progress reported.

Mr. Speaker, in terms of section 58 (1) of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964, I am tabling, for consideration by the House, amendments to certain taxation proposals in respect of customs and excise duties, as printed on pages 300 to 313 of the Minutes. The full particulars of the amendments will be published in the Minutes.

Mr. Chairman, this rather unusual Vote, amounting, as it does, to some R2½ million, presumably is coming under the control of the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs. Generally, when one asks for information about radio services, the hon. the Minister replies that it is not under his control. Of course, we accept that. But here we have actually R2½ million which is going to be spent by him, because he is presumably responsible for it. It is evidently going to be spent on the radio services of the country. What grounds can he have for spending R700,000 on special services for the Bantu of South-West Africa? Has he conducted a survey of South-West African Natives, whose languages I believe differ considerably one from the other? Has he considered how many radio sets have been sold in that area, or does he distribute them free, in order to put across the various programmes to the listening public of that area? For instance, does he specify the Department responsible for the programmes? Is it his. Department or some other Department of the Government that compiles the programmes? Of course, we know that Springbok Radio programmes, which is to some extent at least under his control, or under the control of the radio service of the country, are compiled by the various companies or sponsors who want to advertise their products. Is the hon. the Minister in the same position? This is a large sum of money for external broadcasting. It amounts to R1,760,000. Has he control over what is broadcast? He has no other control. He constantly tells us that he has no other control. He does not know who broadcasts Current Affairs, for instance. He cannot stop it, even if he wants to. But here he is spending R2½ million. If he is setting up a new broadcasting station …

Order! This has only to do with radio services outside of the Republic.

But it is the Republic’s money that is being spent, Sir. It is our money.

Yes, but the hon. member is referring to what is happening in the Republic.

I want to know how the hon. the Minister is going to spend this money that is being voted here. It is being voted for a purpose. That purpose is what I am trying to find out. It is not something outside the Budget; it is in the Budget. I am asking the hon. the Minister to what extent he has control. I want him to tell us how he is going to make certain that the Bantu of South-West Africa are going to listen to him, and whether it would be better if he perhaps visited them and spoke to them privately, because there are so few of them to listen, but what is important, how is he going to spend this money? What is he going to do, and how is it going to benefit the population of this Republic?

Mr. Chairman, on this Vote. No. 39, provision is being made for the spending, as it was called by the previous speaker, of R1,760,000 on the external radio service. An amount of R700.000 is in respect of running expenses of the F.M. radio service for Natives of South-West Africa. The hon. gentleman who has just resumed his seat, put a few questions to the hon. the Minister. I believe he will most certainly receive replies to those questions. I am surprised, however. that the hon. member still does not know by this time that when some F.M. service is introduced and a specific Bantu language is used in the programmes of that service, there are sufficient listeners who can enjoy the benefit from those programmes. The hon. member need not concern himself in the least about these F.M. services which are going to be introduced for the Natives of South-West Africa.

But I want to come back to the question of the external radio service.

What language is being used?

A variety of Bantu languages is being used. I just want to point out in brief that as far as the Northern Sotho and the Southern Sotho and the Zulu, Xhosa and the respective associated dialects are concerned, only one language need be used, because if one uses one basic language virtually everyone can follow and understand that programme. The hon. member knows that this is so. I hope he will not put any further nonsensical questions to me.

Three years have elapsed since the introduction of the external shortwave service of the S.A.B.C., i.e. Radio R.S.A. After this period of three years during which Radio R.S.A. has been serving the outside world, one is able to form an objective idea which enables one to ascertain whether or not this amount which is being asked for now for this service is justified. I maintain to-day that this is an excellent investment as this short-wave radio service is conveying to listeners in the outside world a great deal of objective information concerning South Africa, and the true picture of our people and our way of life. So as to be able to form a better understanding of the South African way of life and the ideals of South Africa, those listeners need knowledge and information. From the annual report it is also very clear that the reaction of listeners in the outside world to this external service testifies to an appreciation of as well as sympathy with South Africa and it also testifies to an interest in the solution of these major problems with which South Africa is struggling.

I simply want to mention these problems so as to enable us to gauge more accurately the value of the external service. In the first place there is the implementation of our policy of peaceful co-existence, which, to a large extent, is not being understood very clearly in Africa, Europe. the United States of America and in the East. Therefore the propagation of the image by radio R.S.A. is of enormous importance and value to South Africa. This is all the more so in view of the fact that over the past few years, actually since the National Party came into power in 1948, South Africa has to an increasing extent, and after it became a Republic, to an even greater extent, found itself up against poisonous propaganda emanating from the United Party on the one hand, the Progressive Party on the other hand, as well as from the poisonous English-language Press.

Order! The hon. member is dealing with internal matters now. The hon. member should confine himself to the matters for which this money is being voted.

With all respect, Sir, I am referring to the consequences of and the reaction to this poisonous propaganda in the outside world. That is why we need this R.S.A. service. That is my argument. I am merely referring to the consequences of that. I have made this point. I am convinced that this is in fact so. In order to achieve these objects broadcasts are being made in nine languages at present, namely French, German, English, Portuguese, Afrikaans, Dutch, Swahili—for the information of the hon. member for Durban (Point)—Tsonga—also for his information—and Zulu. Just as this is being done by that service, it is also being done by the F.M. service. In other words, the language which they can understand is being used on this radio network. This means of communication also enables the immigrant to communicate with his family and friends in the language they can understand and appreciate when mutual communication does take place. The broadcasts of Radio R.S.A. to the territories in Africa are extremely essential. They are all the more essential as news reports of overseas countries, inter alia, the United States, are hostile towards South Africa and contain poisonous propaganda which is being broadcast in Africa and in the outside world. In this case this service is not being used for broadcasting counter-poisonous propaganda against those countries, but only for projecting the true picture so that the listeners may become acquainted with that and may be converted to the correct standpoint. Radio R.S.A., by means of its external service for which these amounts are being made available, is in my opinion the best method of making direct contact with those listeners. At the same time it facilitates and expedites news reporting. That is why it is such an important service in my opinion. However, I appreciate not only the news reporting but also these other programmes broadcast by the R.S.A. radio service. I want to mention only a few programmes this service has been broadcasting lately. A series of Bantu folk tales is being broadcast in the programme “Bantu Fireside Tales”. Stories, fables and legends are told in this programme. It is necessary for people in the outside world to have knowledge of these as well. Another programme is “Spotlight on South African Industry”. This is a concise, informative description and review of South Africa’s industrial development. This is to the benefit of both South Africa and business concerns in the outside world. Another programme is “300 years in Africa”. This programme is also broadcast over the external service. This is a series dealing with our history. It can only be to the benefit of South Africa to have this brought to the attention of listeners in the outside world. In the Afrikaans programme we have what is a fine attempt by Radio R.S.A. to make contact with our Afrikaans-speaking people in Central Africa by broadcasting to those people in their own language religious services and Festival of the Covenant programmes and music. One can picture to oneself how enjoyable it must be, when one is removed from people speaking one’s mother-tongue, to be served by a service such as this which is in one’s own language. This also applies to English-speaking people who may have relatives in South Africa.

Finally I should like to mention the service which is being rendered to the people who have to go and work for long periods in the Antarctic, on Marion Island or Gough Island. If one could only realize how fervently those people long to make contact with their fatherland, one could to some extent gauge how much this R.S.A. radio service means to them. In my opinion this contact with their next-of-kin is something wonderful to them. I want to conclude by saying that the appropriation of this amount of R1,760,000 is an excellent investment when measured in terms of the valuable service given to people of the Republic in the first place and to listeners in the outside world. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, this is an unusual Vote. I think we are not familiar with it. The hon. member for Harrismith seems to have information which we do not have. We are anxious to discuss this Vote in the spirit of the S.A.B.C. and St. Pauls Epistle to the Philippians to think on these things. I think in introducing this new Vote, the hon. the Minister could have made an introductory statement to the House to explain to us what this is. We have to depend on the hon. member for Harrismith for information in this regard. I think the hon. the Minister could explain to us what the purpose of this Vote is and give us the information that we want for discussion. Then we can continue.

Mr. Chairman, this first item makes provision for the continued payment of the running expenses of the external shortwave service of the S.A.B.C. This is not a new item. On the contrary, it is an old item. Hon. members can see that the increase in this connection is R235,000. This service yields no revenue. In view of the fact that it is fulfilling an extremely important function, i.e. giving the outside world factual information about South Africa, the running expenses are borne by the State. This is a generally accepted principle one also finds in the case of other governments, i.e. to make contributions in respect of the expenses incurred on this kind of service, as the dissemination of information and understanding of a country promotes good international relations. At present the broadcasts of Radio R.S.A. cover the whole of Africa, Europe, the United States of America, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. These broadcasts are made in 10 languages, as the hon. member for Harrismith said.

As regards the running expenses of the F.M. radio service for Natives of South-West Africa, I may just mention that these expenses come to R700,000. It is correct that this is a new item. The South African Broadcasting Corporation is continually extending and improving its broadcasting services. In the interests of the country broadcasts in their own languages are already being made to different Bantu population groups through the medium of the Xhosa service, the Zulu service, the Northern and Southern Sotho service, the Venda and the Tsonga services. By means of the installation of a F.M. service, which will broadcast in Herero, Kunyama and Ndonga, the S.A.B.C. is at present arranging to make provision for the Native population of South-West Africa as well. The service will reach approximately 60 per cent of the Native population of South-West Africa and is expected to come into operation during September of this year. The Government has agreed to assist the S.A.B.C. initially as regards the running expenses of this service. Running this service for a full year is estimated to cost R920,000. In view of the fact that the programme will be in operation for only part of the year, however, the costs involved come to R700,000. In addition I may just mention that the Administration of South-West Africa will make a contribution towards these running expenses.

But if this is Bantu propaganda, why does it not fall under Bantu Affairs?

I do not think this matter can be argued as this is not a new principle. At the time of the introduction of Radio Bantu, that service could not be undertaken on a profitable basis either. At that time the Government also rendered assistance in connection with financing the running expenses of that service. Therefore, the principle of the State financing similar Bantu programme services is not one which this House now has to consider for the first time. At this stage the costs of the F.M. service for the Natives of South-West Africa are extremely unpredictable. But, as I have said, initially Radio Bantu operated at a loss. The State had to assist in financing the running expenses of that service. At the moment, however, no further assistance is being given as the loss has been converted into a profit and the programme is able to support itself now. The same thing may probably happen in South-West Africa in the future.

In addition I may say that available broadcasting services elsewhere in South-West Africa have also been improved now by the installation of facilities which, in Windhoek and its immediate vicinity, make the Afrikaans, English and Springbok Radio services available on F.M. Outside this area listeners in South-West Africa are at present enjoying the benefit of direct special shortwave broadcasts over 100 kW. senders from the H.F. Verwoerd transmitting station which also offer the Afrikaans, English and Springbok Radio services. This replaces the shortwave broadcasts over 20 kW. senders which were transmitted from the transmitting station in all directions as far as Parys in the Free State.

The hon. member for Durban (Central) asked how the money appropriated for this purpose was to be controlled. I may just inform the hon. member that the S.A.B.C. is spending this money for the services in South-West Africa. As I have said, exactly the same thing was done in connection with Radio Bantu. It is true that the South African Broadcasting Corporation is doing the spending, but I think we cannot argue about this principle. There was ample opportunity for discussing this matter during the Post Office budget debate, and that is where this matter in fact belongs.

Is this a separate account?

No. If the hon. member consults the Post Office Budget, he will notice that provision has been made in that for all matters of principle concerning the S.A.B.C., and that this matter should have been discussed in that debate. This is in point of fact a transaction between the Treasury and the S.A.B.C., and not between the Post Office and the S.A.B.C.

Mr. Chairman, I understand the argument regarding Item A, but am I to understand that Item B, amounting to R700,000, is a subsidy which the Government gives to the S.A.B.C.? The S.A.B.C. will not be responsible to this House for the spending of that money. Is the R700,000 a subsidy which our Government pays to the S.A.B.C., and will they control those funds in the future and not be responsible to this House?

Mr. Chairman, the Government is spending this money in the interests of the country itself, i.e. by providing Bantu programme services in South-West Africa for the Natives of that territory. The Government will continue to cover the running expenses of those services until such time as the Bantu programme services of the S.A.B.C. in South-West Africa become self-supporting. This very position obtained in the case of Radio Bantu services in South Africa.

Is this a subsidy?

One may put it like that.

Vote put and agreed to.

Revenue Vote 40,—Community Development, R11,670,000, Loan Vote K,—Community Development, R79,750,000, and S.W.A. Vote 20, — Community Development, R2,200,000:

Mr. Chairman, may I have the privilege of the half-hour? I must commence my remarks by asking why there is no report before the House. The last report that has been tabled by the department was for 1966. The work of this House and this Committee is hampered and delayed by the failure of hon. Ministers to see that reports are before this House timeously. I want to point out that this hon. Minister’s Loan Vote is the second largest one on the Budget; it is exceeded only by the capital expenditure for the Railways and Harbours. We are here to discuss the workings of this department and the last information we have is what happened up to the 31st December, 1966. This information should be here and should be readily available to the House, tabulated and detailed so that the members of this House and the public may know what has happened with these large sums of money and in what manner they have been expended. The result of not having these reports—and I suppose it is the same story here as we have heard from the hon. the Minister of Health, namely that it is still with the printer—protracts debate and members on both sides of the House have to put lengthy questions on the Order Paper to extract information that should be available. I hope the hon. the Minister will give this House an explanation and an apology for the fact that these reports have not been tabled by his department.

I feel that one of the biggest problems that is facing us in this country, and one for which this hon. Minister must find a solution, is the question of housing. I want to deal with certain aspects of this matter as they fall under the control of this hon. Minister. I want to see whether he cannot give some thought to the proposals I wish to put before him to alleviate this particular problem in South Africa.

In 1968 the question of loans to individuals who wished to build houses was dealt with and revised by the Government. Individuals with an income up to R5,000 per annum were able to obtain through the building societies and the National Housing Commission 90 per cent bonds at a rate of interest of 7.583 per cent. In March of this year the Government announced that certain concessions would be given as far as public servants were concerned, and we welcomed this. Our public servants are now relieved of some of the burden which still remains with the ordinary individual, to the extent that public servants can now obtain a 100 per cent bond and that where a public servant’s income does not exceed R3,000 the rate of interest is 4 per cent per annum, and where it exceeds R3,000 but does not exceed R7,500, the rate of interest is 5 per cent. But the individual citizen who wishes to avail himself of this facility is baulked by the limit which is being set by the department as to the cost of either acquisition or the building of a house. That limit is set at R10,000 and it is applicable when a person purchases or when he builds. I want to refer to remarks which have been made quite recently, in March this year, by Mr. Tom Murray, who is a member of the Prime Minister’s Economic Advisory Council. He referred to the question of the acquisition of houses by the individual; by “individual” I mean a salaried man who is not employed by the State. He said that South Africa’s problem is to provide more houses and flats at the right price tag for the huge majority of the working population. He went on to say that the cheapest possible new house which is available in the Johannesburg area costs approximately R13,000. This means that the would-be buyer has to find at least R2,700 in hard cash for his deposit and transfer costs. He then poses this question: How many young married workers have that sort of money in their pockets?

Who said that?

Mr. Tom Murray said this in March this year. I have mentioned that because I believe that the Minister should give consideration to the adjustment of the ceiling for certain areas and particularly for the metropolitan areas. It is done in other aspects of legislation. We have wage determinations which apply on one scale in certain areas of the country, and apply on a different scale in a metropolitan area. I think that the hon. the Minister would be giving some relief, if there could be consideration of an extension of the ceiling in so far as the larger urban areas are concerned. It is obvious that in smaller towns and smaller rural townships houses can be acquired at less than R10,000, but I want to say to the hon. the Minister—and I am sure that he and his department will agree with me—that it is very difficult to find anything suitable for a family at that price in the cities.

There is another matter which was discussed last year, but in regard to which we have seen no further developments. That is the matter of assistance and some relief for the really low income groups who are on the sub-economic and virtually sub-economic basis of assistance from the National Housing Commission. The position at the present moment is that rental is assessed for an income between R101 to R130 per month on the basis of 3 per cent. From R130 to R160 per month, the rate is 5 per cent. I believe that that is a burdensome basis because of the depreciation of the purchasing power of money. We have already seen that as a result of the introduction of sales tax the cost-of-living index is up by 1 per cent. Last year there was an undertaking that the National Housing Commission would investigate the scales again in regard to the rentals of sub-economic housing to see if some suitable adjustment could be made. I should like to know what has actually been done in this regard. I have raised these matters because in the report for 1967 the Secretary has made the following remarks. I want to read it here because I think it is important in viewing this problem. He said:

That, of course, is directed to the Treasury. I should like to know from the hon. the Minister whether the funds which have been made available during last year, for instance, have been completely utilized by the various departments which can use them. In other words, has the National Housing Commission utilized every possible rand which was made available to them and has the same been done by the Community Development Board in the establishment of housing schemes? I know that the hon. the Minister on occasion in a general way has suggested that there is no real acute housing shortage. I think we have come to the stage of arguing on adjectives; we are arguing whether it is “acute” or “real” or whatever it is. I think the Minister must accept the position that it is really a serious problem and that it remains a serious problem. I believe that it is going to continue as a serious problem because it is not tackled at its roots as far as the Government is concerned. Conservative estimates maintain that 28,000 new residential units are needed per annum for the natural increase in population, immigration, etc. I want to know what investigations have been carried out by the hon. the Minister, or what investigations is he undertaking to find a solution not only in regard to the inability to cope with providing this number of houses plus the number of houses required for the transference of race groups, but also to find some solution for the spiralling costs of land and construction. I was amazed when I saw recently from a report of a building society in Johannesburg that the general average repayment of bonds granted for the providing of homes for the middle-class person was R40 per month over a 25-year period in 1960. This would have meant that a house was within the reach of a man earning R160 per month, on the normal basis of 25 per cent of income spent on interest and redemption. The estimate of the building society is that, nine years later, in 1969, the annual repayment for the similar type of loan for the similar purpose has increased to such an extent that the man who wishes to avail himself of a building society loan for the same type of house will now have to find R80 per month for interest and redemption. This means that his salary must be double the amount of 1960. This is causing a tremendous amount of frustration and difficulty for the younger people in this country of ours.

There are some matters in which help can be given, and I want to suggest some of them to the hon. the Minister. Some of them are not novel; they have been suggested before. The State gives no encouragement whatsoever to a young man who is beginning a job to start purchasing a plot of land for himself for a home in the future. If he was, for instance, entitled to have some tax benefit for instalments which are paid for a plot which is for home ownership purposes for himself, I am sure a lot of the young men who now buy insurance policies to cede to their wives under ante-nuptial contracts would much rather put instalments into a plot of land. I am sure they would much rather do this, because it would eventually become their home if and when they get married. I believe that we have to give some encouragement of that nature to young people so that they can purchase property. They should be able to put their money into acquiring land for future building.

Then the second point is that there seems to be no possibility or no steps have been taken by the State to stabilize land prices in some way. I know it is a big problem, because with every land speculator there is the profit motive. But I believe some steps can be taken whereby land prices can be stabilized. For instance, you immediately stop speculation if when a township is opened and developed, it is a condition of the acquisition of a plot in that township that a house shall be built upon it by the purchaser within a certain time; then there is no holding of plots, no waiting for an abnormal demand and there is no profiteering by somebody who has acquired a plot at an early stage.

Another matter which the department can deal with is the elimination of building delays, and there are colossal delays in the completion of buildings. One also realizes that the interest rate of 8½ per cent which house-owners have to pay in South Africa is the highest interest rate of this kind in any country of the world. This is the burden which is being put on to this country and which is continuing in this country. These matters I have mentioned are some matters which can be dealt with and which call for action by the Government.

Finally, I want to mention the elimination of delays in the proclaiming of townships. Something which I have found very interesting was a recent assessment of the break-down of costs. This break-down of costs of the establishment of a township allows for the delays in getting townships established, undertaking the surveys and obtaining the approval of local authorities. It is stated in a report which appeared recently that between 1955 and 1965 the average break-down on the cost of residential stands to the developer was as follows: The land cost 19 per cent, the services 21 per cent, the endowment 18 per cent, the selling commission 10 per cent, the tax 10 per cent, leaving the developer a profit of 22 per cent; so the man who eventually pays R100 pays that price for ground which initially cost R19. This position is aggravated if there is a delay in the establishment of the townships and there is an interest burden on the money invested over a long period of time. Sir, another matter which I know is of great concern to the hon. the Minister and his department is the inability of the building industry at the present time to cope with this backlog. I believe the situation there is quite frightening, when one looks at the need for a dynamic programme of building. Sir, I want to quote again what I quoted last year from the 1966 report of the department (paragraph 136)—

That is the position in which the building industry finds itself. This report of the department is supported by a survey conducted by the National Institute of Personnel Research of the C.S.I.R. and submitted to the National Development Corporation. According to that survey, the recruitment of apprentices is falling well below half the required figure. The industry’s skilled labour contingent is at present about 40,000. To supplement this, according to estimates made by the C.S.I.R. in 1962, a minimum of 2,400 apprentices were needed in the trade each year. This report goes on to say—

The report then goes further and deals with the matter which has been dealt with already under the Labour Vote, and that is the question of using non-Whites in the building industry. I realize that that is not a problem of the Minister’s and that he cannot control it, but I also realize that the Minister has a responsibility, when he finds that he cannot complete his programme, to go to his colleagues in the Cabinet and say, “I can never do my job unless there is a review of the rule so far as employees in the building industry are concerned.”

Sir, I want to turn for a moment to Coloured housing, and I want to deal in particular with the question of housing for Coloured persons who have been required to move from one area to another in terms of the Group Areas Act.

A very good thing.

Sir, I am not going to react to nonsensical comments of that nature. Sir, I wonder whether the designing has been correctly thought out, not of the houses but of the townships themselves. When one looks from the air at the townships in the Cape Flats and other areas where there is plenty of land available, they look nice and neat geometrically but one wonders whether this is really the correct method of laying out townships for the types of persons who in the main have been moved. You see, Sir, it is very nice for the normal person who has some leisure time on his hands to have a small cottage with a little bit of ground around it, but then he must have time to work in the garden and to keep it tidy and to look after it. I wonder whether the right thing has been done in building these houses as single or semi-detached small units, with a lot of ground to become neglected and derelict around each of the properties, because these people are not there during the day; they leave home in the morning while it is still dark to go to their jobs, and they come home at night when it is dark. I wonder whether in designing the metropolis in the Bellville South area, for instance, and on the Cape Flats, more thought should not be given to the provision of density living quarters with adequate communal parks and recreation areas which are maintained by the local authority. I think they would provide far more attractive and more pleasant surroundings for these Coloureds than these small houses dotted in the sand, with no ability on the part of the occupiers to tidy them up, to clean them up and to have lawns around them.

I have seen some very beautiful gardens there.

Yes, there are some but they are the exceptions. Sir, I have been connected for years with a non-profit housing company in Cape Town, where we build houses to sell to Coloured persons, and our great difficulty always was to keep these places looking neat and tidy; to get these people to keep the houses, the fences and the surroundings tidy. I believe that if you had a park or a communal area which is looked after by the local authority and if you have a greater density of living quarters, one would have more attractive and more pleasant townships.

Sir, there has been a lot of talk about the new metropolis on the Cape Flats in the Western Cape, and I wonder if the hon. the Minister can tell us what is being done as regards the planning of that area. I hope that there is a master plan being prepared for the lay-out of that area, with the industrial and other complexes that will grow there, and that the streets and roads are being planned on the basis of a metropolis. I would be interested to know to what extent the hon. the Minister can enlighten us with regard to the planning which is being undertaken or should be undertaken at the present moment. Sir, there are other aspects of the wider lay-out which have been adopted so readily on the Cape Flats which I think are disconcerting and that is that the cost of services in that type of township are always very much higher than in a concentrated residential area. It seems that what is going to happen, judging by what is happening in townships created quite recently, is that slum conditions are going to start developing in these townships unless very definite and radical steps are taken to prevent that state of affairs. I know the Minister will say it is the responsibility of the Coloured people and I know there is a responsibility resting on them. But we can surely do our planning in such a manner that we do not aggravate the difficulties they have in trying to maintain the homes to which they are moved.

I want to deal with those Coloureds who have had to leave their properties because of Group Areas Act proclamation and what happened to those properties. In answer to a question I put to the Minister in February this year, I received information from him in regard to certain erven at the Strand which were taken over by the Department of Community Development from four Coloured persons. The procedure was that the basic value of those erven would have been set under the Act by the Department, and an offer would have been made to these Coloured persons and they would have had the right to go on appeal to a revision court if they so wished, or they could have accepted the offer. These persons accepted the offer and were paid out something, in the aggregate between them, of less than R10,000. In October, 1968, having expropriated the land in 1966, the department decided to sell these erven and they were offered for sale. Tenders were called for and the price obtained by the Community Development Board was R100,050. The Minister was good enough to show me the tenders. The one tender which was accepted was out of proportion with the others, in so far that it was so much higher than the other tenders, but in fact the property was sold at that figure, and even if it was sold to one of the other tenderers, at say R21,000, i.e. double the price the Minister paid, it would have meant that the Coloured owners were deprived in two years of R10,000. I am sure the Minister knows as well as I do that the profiteering which is going on in areas from which Coloureds are being asked to move is something which should shame all of us. Companies are formed by people who have no interest whatever in the Coloured people, and there are several such companies in Cape Town. They go along and buy up from the Coloureds a house which is dilapidated although still fairly substantial basically. They spend a bit of money on dolling it up, putting in new window-frames and putting some whitewash on the walls and they call it a Chelsea area. The Minister, by his proclamation under the Group Areas Act, has made it a White group area and the profiteering that goes on has to be seen to be believed.

What is the remedy?

That is the point. I believe that the remedy is to be found in the fixing of the basic value. The basic values at the Strand, as I pointed out, turned out to be 10 per cent of what those properties were eventually sold for. I believe the whole system of fixing basic values and the compensation paid to the owner who is being deprived of his property should be thoroughly revised. I hope the Minister, with his usual enthusiasm and determination, will tackle this job because there is a great deal of hardship resulting from this type of exploitation.

In conclusion, I want to refer to a matter I discussed with the Minister earlier this session, and that is the necessity of his obtaining the co-operation of the local authorities. I want to say to the Minister again that I believe that the local authorities are quite prepared to co-operate with his department. When I suggested that to him before, he mentioned various localities which are now not really material, but I want the Minister to know that the information he gets may not always be accurate, even though he gets it from his department. After all, they have a wide field to cover and they may not have enough local knowledge or information which they should have. The Minister knows perfectly well that in the case of Stellenbosch he has been so informed by the Mayor of Stellenbosch, that his information was incorrect. I want to go further, just to have it on record in this House, and say that when a public meeting was called in Stellenbosch— and I have the minutes of that meeting which was held on the 12th of this month—the matter was thoroughly ventilated, and this was the resolution adopted by that meeting-—

And the motion was put and unanimously adopted. [Time expired.]

The hon. member for Green Point covered a wide field but did not make much of an impression. He hit out at random, but I do not believe he inflicted any wounds. I just want to refer to the statement he made at the beginning of his spech when he said that the Department would have to give an account of what it had done with the large sum of money with which it had been entrusted. One need only open one’s eyes to see where that money has gone, and when we bear in mind pre-1948 conditions and see how things are to-day …

What about the prerinderpest period?

Yes, I know the hon. member for Durban (Point) is scared of that time, because we always have to measure the times in which we are living in terms of conditions which prevailed at that time, and if we want to ascertain what has become of the money, we can very easily do so by drawing a comparison between conditions now and conditions prior to 1948. I want to agree with him that housing is a very important aspect of national life. It is essential for sound national growth and family life, but as far as this is concerned, I have reason this afternoon for alleging without any fear of contradiction that the Government, as far as this is concerned, has done its duty and has done it very well. Therefore I should like to express my appreciation at this stage to the Department for the way in which it is performing its task and for the great interest it is showing in the weal and woe of our less privileged people in the performance of its duties. I should also like to avail myself of this opportunity to thank the hon. the Minister and to express my appreciation to him for the role he is playing, and I should also like to congratulate him on his appointment as Minister of Community Development. Just as he has built up a tradition in this House of being a formidable political fighter and an undaunted defender of his principles, so we believe he will also build up during his term of office as Minister of Community Development a tradition of being a man who will really achieve success in his work. We want to wish him every success and offer him our sincere co-operation.

As I have said, we on this side are proud of the achievements of the Government in respect of housing which has been provided for our people. The question now is: How is this being done and what is being done? In the first place I want to point out that the way in which this is being done testifies to the interest and the determination of the Government to make provision, in the first place, for the needs of people who cannot be self-sufficient. In contrast to the lamentations of the hon. member for Green Point here to-day, I want to say that it is everyone’s duty to try to be self-sufficient in this regard, and we probably also have the right to appeal to employers to try to meet the housing requirements of their employees. But the way in which this assistance is being granted reveals the ideal of the Government to look after everyone in such a way that healthy family life will not suffer. There are various methods of providing assistance. In the first place, the Department is assisting in the development of housing. It is rendering assistance in the field of slum clearance, because where the local authorities do not do this, the Department itself does so. Furthermore, the Department is always assisting local authorities, the bodies whose duty it actually is to provide housing for Whites, to do so, and in cases where the local authorities fail to do so, the Department brings pressure to bear. If this does not help, the Department itself develops that housing scheme. That actually explains why so much success has been achieved lately. We find at present, as regards the various schemes which differentiate between the various income groups, that the obstacles which obstruct sound development in connection with the provision of housing are being removed. We have schemes under which money is made available to local authorities at a very low rate of interest, 3¾ per cent, for sub-economic housing schemes. The State carries the balance of the interest paid on that capital. The fact that the Government has consented to do so, is a feather in its cap. In addition there are other schemes, economic ones, under which money is provided at a higher rate of interest in accordance with the income of the group provided with housing. When we go into these matters we see that everything is being done to provide the right assistance at the right place where it is most essential to do so. In addition there are the other schemes for the provision of old age homes. We also have schemes under which people who want houses are given the opportunity of buying houses themselves. Consequently I am of the opinion, in contrast with what the hon. member for Green Point said here, that the Department is doing its utmost to meet these needs.

It gives me great pleasure to show hon. members in the short time I have at my disposal what was done in the past few years in respect of the provision of housing. When we examine these things, we may rightly be proud of this National Government for what it has done in respect of this matter. I should like to mention a few figures in this regard. I am referring only to the past five years. In the year 1964-’65 an amount of R23,345,000 was voted for housing. In 1965-’66 this amount was R30,445,000. In the year 1966-’67 it was R34,750,000. In the year 1967-’68 it was R50,240,000. For the current financial year an amount of R52,300,000 is being requested. During this period of five years the amount of money voted by this Government for housing has therefore doubled itself or more than doubled itself. The amount increased from R23 million to R52 million. This indeed is evidence of the very sympathetic attitude the Government has in respect of these problems. As I said at the outset, if one only opens one’s eyes one will see what has been achieved in this field.

But let us also consider the number of houses which have been built. Now I am referring only to White housing because this is what I should like to confine myself to to-day. The United Party likes to inform the public that this Government is looking after the Black people only. At other times they maintain that nothing is being done for the Black man. As far as White housing is concerned, 2,673 houses were built in the year 1964-’65; 4,578 in 1965-’66; 5,806 in 1966-’67; 4,600 in 1967-’68 and 3,600 in 1968-’69, a total of 21,000 houses built by the Department. Up to 1968 as many as a total number of 77,982 White houses had been built. This indeed is an achievement and it is proof of the earnestness of this Government to overcome this problem. It is not a case of fine words and empty talk; it is a case of striving purposefully towards the ideal of housing our people properly. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, in the time I have at my disposal I should like to touch on a few small matters. In the first instance I should like to associate myself with what was said by the hon. member for Langlaagte. We are truly impressed by the way in which the Minister, in the short time he has had, has gained proper control of and a firm grip on this very important and complicated Department. Those of us who have the chance and the opportunity of working very closely and intimately with the Minister are convinced of the fact that he is making a very great success of the work of this Department. It is no easy matter to be in charge of this Department. It is a Department which meets very involved problems and many thorny situations along its road. But the hon. the Minister has showed us that he got his teeth into this matter in next to no time. We want to congratulate him on that.

The hon. member for Green Point—I am sorry that he is not here at the moment— spoke of Coloured housing. He said we should pay some attention to the design of Coloured housing. All the same, I want to say that we have had a great deal to do with the provision of Coloured housing. I think that in general the Coloureds are satisfied and happy with the design of the houses in which they are living to-day. It is a very practical design which allows of the Coloureds fitting their families very easily into these houses. But we should also have regard to the fact that it is very easy for the United Party to say that we should build large and spacious houses for these people. The United Party is not responsible for finding the necessary funds. When we consult Loan Vote K, one is truly grateful to see that this year we have obtained an additional amount of more than R5 million. This proves to us that housing is a matter about which this Government is in earnest and in respect of which all of us want to do our best to make up the leeway which developed in the course of years as a result of the lack of planning and disinterest of a United Party Government. Because of the tremendous population increase we are determined to house our population properly.

Sir, for a few moments I should like to dwell on my own constituency and the circumstances prevailing in my constituency. I should like to address a word of thanks to the Minister and to the Department for what is being done in that area. I am grateful for the fact that with the assistance and through the agency of the Department of Agricultural Credit and Land Tenure a large piece of land has been placed at our disposal in the Kleinfontein area on which we shall establish a housing scheme for the lower and middle income groups. As I have said, we are grateful for what is being done for housing projects in the Benoni area, especially in the municipal area. The development which is taking place in Northmead Extension, in the direction of Kempton Park, is a very fine scheme. It is a scheme which is very popular, particularly amongst the income groups concerned. The larger part of the community of Benoni consists of factory workers, people employed in industries. They have to make use of train services as they work in other parts of the Witwatersrand. To live closer to their places of employment is a major need as regards the majority of these people. Therefore I say that the situation of this new Kleinfontein area, which is being acquired by the city council, is extremely convenient for these people, within reach of their places of employment. New Kleinfontein is situated virtually next to the Apex industrial development area. It is not situated far from the other established industries in Benoni either. It is virtually within walking distance of both the station at Apex and the industrial area. We have rendered a great deal of assistance to the local authority of Benoni, a body that is also favourably disposed to this matter, to carry through these negotiations. The only remaining thing is that we have to obtain our funds from the Department. I think the Minister should canalize some of these increased funds on the Estimates in the direction of Benoni so that we may start that project. The plea I want to make is that when the city council of Benoni approaches the Department for these funds, the Department should accommodate us in the same way as it did in the past.

Then I should also like to express a word of gratitude and appreciation for the funds which have been made available for the housing project at Actonville for the Indians of the East Rand. The policy of the National Party is to clear up our country by settling our people properly in their own areas. At the moment there still are quite a number of these people who are living in places scattered over the East Rand. Some of them live in shanties. They are living in conditions which are truly undesirable. At the moment a very active building programme is being carried out at Actonville. Houses are being built at Actonville for these people. A business centre is also being erected there in which dealers who are still trading in White areas at the moment, can be concentrated in a proper business centre in that area. I speak with knowledge of the feelings of these people. The Indian community in that area is grateful for what is going to be done for them there. I want to inform this House that last year I had the opportunity of addressing 500 of these people at a rally where I explained matters to them. There we received the warmest affection and the most sincere promise of co-operation from these people as regards the implementation of our policy. If there are hon. members in this House, especially on the opposite side, who want to maintain that these people do not stand with us as regards the implementation of our policy, they will be talking the biggest lot of nonsense. I am able to testify to the fact that these people are standing with us in the implementation of our policy, and I am able to produce conclusive proof of this.

I want to conclude by wishing the Minister every success. I hope and trust that he will find time to pay us a visit one of these days.

Mr. Chairman, to me it was a wonderful experience to hear the hon. member for Benoni making a plea that people should be given the opportunity of living in close proximity to their work. He even went so far as to ask that the Minister should help to see to it that people lived within walking distance of their work. That is fine. That is a spirit that has our support. But I cannot help seeing the anomaly in that, because when it comes to non-Whites and Indians that same member will get up here and strongly defend the removal of the Indians of Johannesburg to a place 18 miles from the hub of their employment. I hope when we debate these matters again in future, the hon. member will adopt that same attitude and not measure by two standards.

Last week during the discussions on the Group Areas Amendment Bill we discussed the question of domestic servants. I pointed out at that time that there were members on the Government side who adopted the attitude that the system of domestic servants was something bad and that we should get rid of domestic servants. A few members on the opposite side expressed their surprise at the fact that I could say something like that. They then wanted to know who had made that statement. I referred to the hon. the Minister of Community Development. That made the hon. the Minister very indignant and he called out “nonsense” two or three times.

I still say so.

That is on record in Hansard and that is how it was reported in the Press. The hon. the Minister will understand that no member can walk round with a pile of cuttings and always have the proof on him at every moment. I can tell him this, however, I am always very careful, and when I make a statement about something which an hon. member or a Minister has said, I make sure that what I say is correct; otherwise I do not make the statement. However, one cannot always prove it immediately. I then told the hon. the Minister that I would raise the matter during the discussion of his Vote. What I referred to was the speech which the hon. the Minister had made not very long ago at a Day of the Covenant celebration as reported in Die Burger on 17th December, 1968. The heading of the report is (translation) “Whites must make sacrifices”. What are the sacrifices which they have to make? “Do without servants, asks Coetzee”. That is what the report says. I hope the hon. member over there is listening now. The report reads as follows (translation)—

On that score I surely agree with the hon. the Minister. It is wrong to look at every non-White as a servant. In that regard I can agree with him. They are also individuals in their own right. But to adopt the attitude that it is wrong to be a servant and to earn in that capacity, and that South Africans should learn to make do without servants, is ridiculous.

I did not say that.

I shall leave that to the hon. the Minister, but I think that any reasonable man who reads this report, “that White South Africans had to learn quickly to make do without non-White servants”, will come to the same conclusion as that to which I came.

Order! What does that actually have to do with this Vote?

The hon. the Minister is responsible for permits.

No, that is not correct. The hon. member is trying to reconcile irreconcilable, and I do not believe in doing things in this way.

I am speaking on the item—salary of the Minister. He is responsible for permits. With all respect, the Bill we passed empowers the hon. the Minister, as far as the visitors of servants are concerned, to …

The hon. member is going very far. He should come back to the Vote.

I do not issue permits for servants, but I think it still falls under my salary!

I just want to say that my objection is that I am of the opinion that hon. Ministers, if they cannot refrain from making wild statements …

I shall tell you exactly what I said.

Yes, but I should like us to at least understand one another in this regard. When the Minister simply calls out here that somebody is talking “nonsense”, he is casting a reflection on that person’s bona fides. I think we should understand one another at least so far that when members make statements here, the Minister really ought not to lose his memory to the extent of calling out “nonsense”.

But you should really not believe every darn report you read.

I am quite prepared to accept, if the Minister says so in all friendliness, that that was an incorrect report.

Order! Was that speech made when the hon. the Minister still was Deputy Minister of Bantu Administration- and Education?

No, at that time he used to be even a little wilder in his statements. I now leave the matter at that. But I do not think Ministers ought to cast reflections of this nature, i.e. that one is talking nonsense while any person will deduce from a report such as this that what I said was correct.

Is that an ascertainable lie?

I still have a second point on which I should like to touch. The hon. the Minister is responsible for issuing permits to South Africans of Chinese descent to live at some place or other. Is that correct? It is the task of the hon. the Minister. I just want to tell the hon. the Minister that these people are South Africans, but they are suspended in the air like Mohammed’s coffin, as it were. As far as I know they cannot own property anywhere, surely not in Johannesburg. They cannot build a house anywhere, because they cannot buy property. They are dependent on the hon. the Minister for their residence in White residential areas. I think it is an unsatisfactory state of affairs that they should be suspended in the air, as it were. I think the time has arrived for the hon. the Minister to give us a frank indication of what he is envisaging for these South Africans of Chinese descent in Johannesburg. As far as I am concerned, I must honestly say that I cannot see how we can have conflicting provisions in this connection, for example, for people of Chinese descent on the one hand and Japanese on the other hand. I should like to know from the hon. the Minister what he is envisaging; how many residential permits have been issued to Chinese to live in a proclaimed residential area such as Johannesburg; what is the average duration of a permit; whether permits to buy property are also issued, and which residential areas have been selected for this purpose in Johannesburg? These are a few questions and I hope the hon. the Minister will reply to them.

At present the Department of Community Development is also operating in South-West Africa. I see an amount of R2,200,000 for this purpose in the Estimates. According to this item in the Estimates there is a staff of five. What I really want to ask the hon. the Minister is whether the whole system of group areas is also applicable to South-West Africa now? I should also like to know whether he is going to put into operation in that territory all the machinery of group areas.

Then I also wonder whether I may discuss on the item “Minister’s salary” the question of the announcement made by him on the gradual replacement of notice boards reading “Whites only” by ones on which only the words “Whites” or “non-Whites” would appear? This is a step in the right direction. Although it is not a major step in the right direction it is an improvement nevertheless.

Order! That falls under a completely different department of the Minister. The hon. member may raise this matter during the discussion of the Vote of that Department.

Very well, then I shall wait until we come to that.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member who has just sat down, has put a few direct questions to the hon. the Minister as regards domestic servants and permits for Chinese. On this particular occasion I should like to confine myself to housing. I hope the hon. member will not take it amiss of me if I do not follow up on what he has said in his arguments.

It is history that on Sunday morning, 1st September, 1968, Port Elizabeth suffered one of the worst flood disasters ever experienced in South Africa. These floods were of such magnitude that the houses of many of the inhabitants were flooded and several families had to flee to the more higher-lying areas of the city. I should not like to create the impression on this occasion that one is not anything but highly appreciative of what was done at the time for our people by our welfare organizations, including the Department of Social Welfare, the Police force, the Defence force and the City Council of Port Elizabeth. On behalf of my constituency, the tenants and the inhabitants who suffered so heavy an affliction, I want to avail myself of this opportunity of conveying the sincere thanks and appreciation of our people to our hon. the Minister and the staff of his department for all they did for us on that occasion. I have personal knowledge of the intense interest the hon. the Minister showed in our afflicted areas and in our people who had suffered so heavy an affliction. I have personal knowledge, too, of the fact that our Department of Community Development made alternative accommodation for these afflicted people available during and immediately after the flood. No community will ever forget a thing like this. For that reason I am finding myself in the privileged position to-day of being able to convey the sincere gratitude and appreciation of my voters to the Department of Community Development and to our hon. the Minister for what they have done during those difficult times. But those of us who take an interest in community development, including our Department of Community Development, have learned three very important lessons from that disaster. I would say that the most important lesson was that the South African—and I think the voters of Port Elizabeth Central represent the average South African—has an irrepressible urge and drive to get back on their feet again after the most trying circumstances and, as has been the case in Port Elizabeth, to clear their houses of the debris, move in again and cheerfully to start from scratch. One wants to say that one felt on that occasion that we as South Africans may always be grateful for the sound stuff of which this nation is made.

We have also learned a second lesson, namely that it must have ben a great encouragement to us and to the Department of Community Development to find that, after only one appeal was made, thousands of citizens, males and females, other individuals and private bodies collected a vast amount of money in the form of an emergency relief fund which enabled us to repair the damaged houses. This money also enabled us to replace damaged furniture. On this occasion it is a privilege for me to pay tribute to those South Africans for the great sacrifice they made to help us who had suffered so heavy an affliction.

There is also a third lesson we could have learned from this disaster, namely that after our people had moved into their houses again, after they had started painting and cleaning operations, after the sun had begun to shine and the children could go to school again, rumours did the rounds in those afflicted areas that tenants might as well stop cleaning and painting their houses because those houses were going to be demolished in the near future. After that had happened, the tenants would be obliged to vacate their houses before demolition work would start. It took the regional representative of the Department of Community Development, our provincial council member and myself days to go from house to house to convince our people that nothing would come of these malicious rumours. One can easily understand that our tenants who had had to live under those rumours had to be protected. Our legislation is quite clear in this connection. One finds it more difficult to understand that there are people who could spread these rumours and that they hoped wrongly that if the tenants were to vacate their properties and that the houses were to stand empty, it would be easier to obtain a demolition permit and then indulge in a little speculation. To my mind tenants not only in my constituency but throughout South Africa do not seem to appreciate fully what rights they have in terms of the Housing Act and particularly in terms of section 45 of the Act. This Act was passed by this Government. Our people are well protected in this regard. It means that nobody shall demolish a dwelling without the approval of the Minister. Nobody is allowed to use a dwelling for purposes other than residential purposes without the approval of the Minister. Nobody may notify a tenant to vacate a dwelling if he wants to demolish such dwelling before having obtained the necessary permission to do so, and in case the owner of the dwelling has, in fact, obtained permission to demolish such dwelling, he should give at least 6 calender month’s notice to the tenant concerned. Anyone who contravenes the conditions of the Act as laid down in section 85 shall be guilty of an offence and liable to a fine not exceeding R200 or to imprisonment for a period of one year. I just want to quote a practical example in this connection. If you take a property which is situated within the area of jurisdiction of Port Elizabeth and in respect of which the owner desires to obtain a demolition permit, such owner has to apply to the local city council in the first place. The local city council will then send its medical and hosing officers to ascertain whether such a dwelling is suitable for occupation, whether people are actually occupying the dwelling and, if such a dwelling is to be demolished, whether the occupants have alternative accommodation. After the City Council has considered the matter, it submits its recommendations to the regional committee, consisting of a member of the National Housing Commission and other senior officials of the Department of Community Development. The powers vested in the hon. the Minister are delegated to this regional committee. It is then a matter for this regional committee to decide whether a demolition permit may be granted or not. My experience is that the regional committee in my area is not very keen to grant a demolition permit if a dwelling is occupied and if such dwelling is fit for human occupation. Of course, for this we are very grateful. The owner of the dwelling is allowed to write to the tenant giving him six calender months’ notice to vacate the dwelling only after the demolition permit has been granted. I think it is vitally important that we must bring about peace, order and contentment among our tenants in South Africa. It is important for them to know that the owner cannot order them arbitrarily to vacate the property if he wants to demolish the place they are living in. For that reason I know that if people contravene the provisions of section 85 and if it is brought to the attention of the hon. the Minister or the Department of Community Development, ruthless steps will be taken against such people, because it is important that there should always be peace among our people as regards the housing sector as well.

Mr. Chairman, after the hon. member for Benoni had spoken and said that the residential areas which would be established at Benoni would be conveniently near the places of employment of those people and that it would be the ideal state of affairs, the hon. member for Bezuidenhout deemed it fit to refer to the non-Whites once more. It is a fact that whatever subject they may deal with, they always come forward with some plea for integration.

No; we are attacking your double standards.

What the hon. member spoke about, was not a double standard. I just want to point out to the hon. member that if he had gone to the trouble of finding out, he would have found that there are probably as many Whites living just as far from their places of employment who also have to rely on transport.

They do so voluntarily.

The Whites have to rely on transport as well, but the difference is that virtually all the transport of the non-Whites is being subsidized by the Government. Apparently he does not know it. It is convenient for them on that side of the House to advocate this because there is no danger that non-Whites might come and live near them, because they buy apartheid in the residential areas in which they are living. I now want to ask the hon. member for Bezuidenhout to tell us whether he would like non-Whites to come and live in his constituency so that they can live near to their places of employment? Let the hon. member get up and tell us.

I spoke about Fordsburg.

Oh, just where it suits him. But now the hon. member must tell us whether he wants us to move the existing industries nearer to the non-White residential areas, or whether he wants us to move the residential areas nearer to our industries.

You are talking nonsense.

When one treads on their toes, they say one is talking nonsense. As soon as one gets behind their policy of integration for which they plead here time and again, they say one is talking nonsense.

I should like to express my personal gratitude and appreciation to the hon. the Minister for the way in which he approaches the problems we have in Boksburg. I want to express my gratitude for the sympathetic interest displayed by the hon. the Minister and for the undertaking he gave us at the time of his visit. I should like to mention here for record purposes that after I had discussed with him the problems as regards the resettlement of Indians in Boksburg, he immediately went out of his way and visited Boksburg to see for himself what problems existed there. I want to tell him to-day that we rely on the sound undertaking he gave us.

However, there is another problem I should like to bring to the attention of the hon. the Minister. This problem concerns the Indian traders who infiltrate into our White residential areas and our White business areas under the names and licences of Whites. One may think that this is not so, but it is a fact that one does find White people who are prepared to sell their birthright for a mess of pottage and to betray their fellow Whites. They betray their own people by allowing Indians to take out a licence in their name. I appreciate the problems the hon. the Minister and his Department have to find a solution for that problem. The licence is in the name of a White person and when one enters the premises of that business there is ostensibly one single White person present but in reality that whole business is being run by Indians. For the sake of convenience, that White person simply sits on one side. I now want to ask the hon. the Minister whether it would not solve the problem to compel those traders to divulge the names of the directors. Cannot we compel those business undertakings to put up a notice board on which the names of the directors are displayed so that we can see who the directors are? Has the time not arrived for us to allow those Indians only to work for those White persons if they have a permit to do so? We cannot allow the good work that has already been done in this way, to be circumvented.

I now want to raise the problem of housing and the costs attached to it. I believe that the cost of land is one of our major problems to which the greatest amount of publicity is being given in the newspapers to-day. People who want to acquire a house of their own find that the plot on which they want to buy or build a house is extremely expensive. When one has to buy the plot, one finds oneself in a most difficult position by the time one has saved enough money as a deposit on one’s bond. Has the time not arrived for us to lay down what the size of plots should be when a township is established? After all, we know that the bigger the plots, the more expensive they are. I want to plead with the hon. the Minister that our local authorities should be compelled to make provision for the lower and middle income groups. It is a fact that most of our local authorities are only interested in providing prestige residential areas for the wealthy people. Has the time not arrived that local authorities should be compelled, when developing a residential area, to make half the number of plots of a size that could be used by the Department of Community Development? Then both the poor man and those in the middle income groups will have the right to build a house in that area. To my mind the poor man has as much right as the rich man to own a small piece of land here in South Africa. It is the God-given right of every person to have a share in the land of South Africa. I know the Department of Community Development is continually making money available. As a matter of fact, more money is made available than the amount used by the local authorities. Houses are not being built because there is not sufficient land. The fault really lies with the local authorities. If they make plots available which were neither too large nor too expensive, I believe our housing problems will be solved. Much is being done by the private sector, but I can only say that I believe that profiteering is more important to them than the service they render.

I should like to draw the attention of the hon. the Minister to the malpractices of lessors of buildings. In the first place, they circumvent the rent boards. I just want to quote an example. The lessor applies for the determination of the rental of a certain building, for instance, a block of flats. The value of the block of flats amounts to, say, R50,000 and the lessor takes out insurance for R100,000. The rental is determined according to the high insurance he pays. However, after a year he does not take out insurance for R100,000 again; he takes out the minimum insurance and pays much less. In the meantime the lessees have to pay that extra money. Another malpractice concerns commission on rent collections. When a lessor submits his application, he states that a certain agent will collect the rent on his behalf and the collector then claims 5 per cent commission. As soon as the rent has been determined, the commission is no longer applicable because the lessor collects the rent himself. I know this creates many problems, but I believe that this Department may very well carry out random tests from time to time to ascertain whether the original insurance on the building is still as high as the owner said it was when he applied for a rent determination. The Department may also carry out random tests to find whether the rent is still being collected by agents.

Mr. Chairman, it was very interesting indeed to hear the hon. member for Port Elizabeth (Central) trying to stress the necessity for the application of Section 85 of the Housing Act. He said it should be applied with the very greatest possible firmness. Of course, this section of the Housing Act, as the hon. the Minister knows only too well, does not in fact provide adequate protection against the demolition of a dwelling under certain circumstances. I have already had quite a lot of experience in this regard. As the hon. the Minister knows at the end of last year there was the case of the landlord who demolished all the houses of those Coloured people in Klip Road, Grassy Park. No action was taken against him because the hon. the Minister said that he was not certain of securing a conviction. On those grounds he was let off. I really think that the hon. the Minister might well be advised to consider amending that section in order to apply it more firmly in circumstances of that kind.